From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Aug 1 12:25:13 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:25:13 -0400 Subject: Looking for old Memorex gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > 3) Mark I, V, VI, X or XI disk packs I'm not familiar with those model names but I suspect I might know them as a "Memorex brand 2315 cartridge" or "Memorex brand 3330 pack" or similar. Was Memorex the first maker of IBM-compatible packs? Where did Caelus come in the scheme? For a while in the mid-2000's there was a Memorex brand USB keychain drive, which I swear was styled to look exactly like a miniature little disk pack. Not a very efficient of pocket space but wow, did it look like an old disk pack :-). > 4) A Data Mark module Help refresh my memory... Data Mark was Memorex's version of the IBM 3348? Head and positioner inside the cartridge? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 1 12:56:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:56:16 -0700 Subject: Looking for old Memorex gear In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E368650.17242.93B3F3@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2011 at 13:25, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Was Memorex the first maker of IBM-compatible packs? Where did Caelus > come in the scheme? Would perhaps Telex be the first, at least for the 3330 disk drives? --Chuck From Brian.Michell at bruker-axs.com Mon Aug 1 14:39:14 2011 From: Brian.Michell at bruker-axs.com (Michell, Brian) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 14:39:14 -0500 Subject: Collection for sale/ pickup Message-ID: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> Hi all, I have reached a point where I must dissolve my collection. I have just reached this decision, so this email is providing a head's up as it were. It seems so many people reach this point then have to get rid of their collection within the next n (where n is <10) days..... I am in the process of making an inventory, but basically I have the following; System 1. VAX 400VLC, 26in? Color monitor, external storage and CD w/caddy System 2. VAX 3100-10 with Evans and Sutherland PS390 Includes connection to VAX, Evans and Sutherland Monitor, button box, Keyboard, Stereographic glasses and software. System 3. PDP 11/23 in a pedestal enclosure System 4. VAX 6000-440; contains 4 RA90 drives, two internal to the cabinet and 2 spare, integral infoserver and several CD drives and a TU81+ tape transport. OpenVMS 6.0 Con Dist. And the system that got me started in this hobby, System 5. PDP 11/23+ DECDatasystem Two Cabinet wide 19"Rack form factor; processor has been upgraded to 11/73. 3 Drives; 2 operational, one standby. 2X RD52 and a RD53. TSV05 tape transport & 2X RL02 Drives. I have numerous terminals for this system, Two Tek Graphics Terminals, a few VT type and an LA100. This system was used as a basis for developing micro controllers, to that end this system also comes with a secondary chassis, two LSI 11 Falcon boards, in the original packaging, a Mentec M90 (I think) PDP on a board, the original 11/23+ processor and several other modules. The software as I recall is RSX-11M-PLUS (V?), FORTRAN & BASIC Also comes with MicroPower Pascal for driving the external Microprocessors. The software comes complete with Licenses, about 10 to 15 RL02 disks, loads of tape and an Orange wall of Documentation. I also have a Qbus ESDI card and Drive, but have not installed those. I am Loathe to let these systems go. But I cannot keep them. I am offering them to the list first in the hope someone will keep them alive and continue to use them. I will be taking an inventory soon and will post that as I make my way through everything. Items are for local pick up only (Madison, WI). I am looking for Donations for this equipment, which, given how unusual some of them are, I think is warranted. If you are interested, please drop me a line at briandotcdotmichellatgmaildotcom Thanks for reading. Brian. ________________________________ The information contained in this email is confidential. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any form of disclosure, reproduction, distribution or any action taken or refrained from in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please notify the sender immediately. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 15:26:34 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:26:34 -0500 Subject: Collection for sale/ pickup In-Reply-To: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> References: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> Message-ID: looking for a paper tape reader punch that i could plug into my laptop to make tapes and use with my pdp8 would any of those work? i'm up in winnipeg canada On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Michell, Brian wrote: > Hi all, > > I have reached a point where I must dissolve my collection. > I have just reached this decision, so this email is providing a head's up > as it were. It seems so many people reach this point then have to get rid of > their collection within the next n (where n is <10) days..... > I am in the process of making an inventory, but basically I have the > following; > System 1. VAX 400VLC, 26in? Color monitor, external storage and CD w/caddy > System 2. VAX 3100-10 with Evans and Sutherland PS390 Includes connection > to VAX, Evans and Sutherland Monitor, button box, Keyboard, Stereographic > glasses and software. > System 3. PDP 11/23 in a pedestal enclosure > System 4. VAX 6000-440; contains 4 RA90 drives, two internal to the cabinet > and 2 spare, integral infoserver and several CD drives and a TU81+ tape > transport. OpenVMS 6.0 Con Dist. > And the system that got me started in this hobby, > System 5. PDP 11/23+ DECDatasystem Two Cabinet wide 19"Rack form factor; > processor has been upgraded to 11/73. 3 Drives; 2 operational, one standby. > 2X RD52 and a RD53. TSV05 tape transport & 2X RL02 Drives. I have numerous > terminals for this system, Two Tek Graphics Terminals, a few VT type and an > LA100. This system was used as a basis for developing micro controllers, to > that end this system also comes with a secondary chassis, two LSI 11 Falcon > boards, in the original packaging, a Mentec M90 (I think) PDP on a board, > the original 11/23+ processor and several other modules. The software as I > recall is RSX-11M-PLUS (V?), FORTRAN & BASIC Also comes with MicroPower > Pascal for driving the external Microprocessors. The software comes complete > with Licenses, about 10 to 15 RL02 disks, loads of tape and an Orange wall > of Documentation. I also have a Qbus ESDI card and Drive, but have not > installed those. > > I am Loathe to let these systems go. But I cannot keep them. I am offering > them to the list first in the hope someone will keep them alive and continue > to use them. I will be taking an inventory soon and will post that as I make > my way through everything. Items are for local pick up only (Madison, WI). I > am looking for Donations for this equipment, which, given how unusual some > of them are, I think is warranted. > > If you are interested, please drop me a line at > briandotcdotmichellatgmaildotcom Thanks for reading. > > Brian. > > > > ________________________________ > > The information contained in this email is confidential. It is intended > solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is > unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any form of disclosure, > reproduction, distribution or any action taken or refrained from in reliance > on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please notify the sender > immediately. > From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 15:31:31 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:31:31 -0400 Subject: Interested in the Tek Terminals...Re: Collection for sale/ pickup Message-ID: Hi Brian, I'm relaying a message from Dave Mcguire, he's in the middle of a big move from home at the moment. He would be interested in te Tek Terminals. We were curious as to which model#s these happen to be. Were located in Pittsburgh. Thanks =Dan ~{sent *[from ?my] ^Android} On Aug 1, 2011 3:45 PM, "Michell, Brian" wrote: > Hi all, > > I have reached a point where I must dissolve my collection. > I have just reached this decision, so this email is providing a head's up as it were. It seems so many people reach this point then have to get rid of their collection within the next n (where n is <10) days..... > I am in the process of making an inventory, but basically I have the following; > System 1. VAX 400VLC, 26in? Color monitor, external storage and CD w/caddy > System 2. VAX 3100-10 with Evans and Sutherland PS390 Includes connection to VAX, Evans and Sutherland Monitor, button box, Keyboard, Stereographic glasses and software. > System 3. PDP 11/23 in a pedestal enclosure > System 4. VAX 6000-440; contains 4 RA90 drives, two internal to the cabinet and 2 spare, integral infoserver and several CD drives and a TU81+ tape transport. OpenVMS 6.0 Con Dist. > And the system that got me started in this hobby, > System 5. PDP 11/23+ DECDatasystem Two Cabinet wide 19"Rack form factor; processor has been upgraded to 11/73. 3 Drives; 2 operational, one standby. > 2X RD52 and a RD53. TSV05 tape transport & 2X RL02 Drives. I have numerous terminals for this system, Two Tek Graphics Terminals, a few VT type and an LA100. This system was used as a basis for developing micro controllers, to that end this system also comes with a secondary chassis, two LSI 11 Falcon boards, in the original packaging, a Mentec M90 (I think) PDP on a board, the original 11/23+ processor and several other modules. The software as I recall is RSX-11M-PLUS (V?), FORTRAN & BASIC Also comes with MicroPower Pascal for driving the external Microprocessors. The software comes complete with Licenses, about 10 to 15 RL02 disks, loads of tape and an Orange wall of Documentation. I also have a Qbus ESDI card and Drive, but have not installed those. > > I am Loathe to let these systems go. But I cannot keep them. I am offering them to the list first in the hope someone will keep them alive and continue to use them. I will be taking an inventory soon and will post that as I make my way through everything. Items are for local pick up only (Madison, WI). I am looking for Donations for this equipment, which, given how unusual some of them are, I think is warranted. > > If you are interested, please drop me a line at briandotcdotmichellatgmaildotcom Thanks for reading. > > Brian. > > > > ________________________________ > > The information contained in this email is confidential. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any form of disclosure, reproduction, distribution or any action taken or refrained from in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please notify the sender immediately. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 1 15:36:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 13:36:26 -0700 Subject: Gould Quadrabyte board set In-Reply-To: <20110801192949.32f691bdb575@www.vintage-computer.com> References: <20110801192949.32f691bdb575@www.vintage-computer.com> Message-ID: <4E36ABDA.11266.12657FD@cclist.sydex.com> I ran across mention of the Gould Quadrabyte processor in a ca. 1980 magazine product annoucement. Does anyone know what CPU was used in these? Thanks, Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Aug 1 15:59:05 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:59:05 -0400 Subject: Gould Quadrabyte board set Message-ID: > I ran across mention of the Gould Quadrabyte processor in a ca. 1980 > magazine product annoucement. > Does anyone know what CPU was used in these? I thought it was a boardset with a gate-array+bitslice+STTL CPU that came when Gould bought S.E.L.. i.e. not a single chip CPU. But... 1980 is before Gould bought S.E.L. right? So maybe I'm mixing things up. I don't think it was a mini-SEL-32 (I asked about this once in the 80's!) Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 1 16:17:14 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:17:14 -0700 Subject: Collection for sale/ pickup In-Reply-To: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> References: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> Message-ID: <4E3717DA.3040309@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/11 12:39 PM, Michell, Brian wrote: > System 2. VAX 3100-10 with Evans and Sutherland PS390 Includes connection to VAX, Evans and Sutherland Monitor, button box, Keyboard, Stereographic glasses and software. Sounds like something Richard would be interested in. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 1 16:39:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 14:39:47 -0700 Subject: Gould Quadrabyte board set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E36BAB3.870.1605592@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2011 at 16:59, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I thought it was a boardset with a gate-array+bitslice+STTL CPU that > came when Gould bought S.E.L.. i.e. not a single chip CPU. > > But... 1980 is before Gould bought S.E.L. right? So maybe I'm mixing > things up. I don't think it was a mini-SEL-32 (I asked about this once > in the 80's!) I went back and located the article. It's June 1982, so Gould probably owned SEL at that time. It mentions that the board could do 660 kWPS and had an MSRP of $14K, but not much other than one board contained a 32-bit CPU. Just trying to satisfy my curiosity. (IEEE Computer, June, 1982, "New Products") --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 1 16:58:05 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:58:05 -0600 Subject: Collection for sale/ pickup In-Reply-To: <4E3717DA.3040309@bitsavers.org> References: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> <4E3717DA.3040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4E3717DA.3040309 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 8/1/11 12:39 PM, Michell, Brian wrote: > > > System 2. VAX 3100-10 with Evans and Sutherland PS390 Includes connection t o VAX, Evans and Sutherland Monitor, button box, Keyboard, Stereographic glasse s and software. > > Sounds like something Richard would be interested in. Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa *brain cramp* -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 1 17:11:11 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:11:11 -0700 Subject: Collection for sale/ pickup In-Reply-To: References: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> <4E3717DA.3040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E37247F.2020805@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/11 2:58 PM, Richard wrote: >> Sounds like something Richard would be interested in. > > Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa *brain cramp* Hey, you're the one that wanted to start a graphics museum.... From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 1 18:26:29 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 16:26:29 -0700 Subject: 74H55 comprehensive data sheet Message-ID: Does anyone on the list happen to have a comprehensive data sheet for this part? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 19:59:41 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 19:59:41 -0500 Subject: So where does the hamster go? Message-ID: ;-) http://cgi.ebay.com/Friden-2305-A-Programatic-Flexowriter-Vintage-Computer-/230654845706 From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 20:21:44 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 03:21:44 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/74 gallery Message-ID: Hi, I don't know if this was posted here before : https://picasaweb.google.com/104560031285123036919/Pdp1174?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCM2Ph96t0O2QQg Enjoy ;-) -- Stephane http://www.freedonne.org help scientific and medical research. Join FreeDonne. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Aug 1 22:49:11 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 20:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/74 gallery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: **** That's beautiful! Thanks for posting that link, I was unaware of the photo's. Which system is that? Is that the one in Colorado Springs? Zane On Tue, 2 Aug 2011, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > Hi, > > I don't know if this was posted here before : > https://picasaweb.google.com/104560031285123036919/Pdp1174?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCM2Ph96t0O2QQg > > Enjoy ;-) > > -- > Stephane > http://www.freedonne.org help scientific and medical research. Join > FreeDonne. > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 1 23:23:31 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 22:23:31 -0600 Subject: Collection for sale/ pickup In-Reply-To: <4E37247F.2020805@bitsavers.org> References: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> <4E3717DA.3040309@bitsavers.org> <4E37247F.2020805@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4E37247F.2020805 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 8/1/11 2:58 PM, Richard wrote: > > >> Sounds like something Richard would be interested in. > > > > Gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa *brain cramp* > > Hey, you're the one that wanted to start a graphics museum.... NO, the brain cramp is because I missed that completely in Brian's first message! For some reason my eyes only saw VAX. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 1 23:42:54 2011 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 21:42:54 -0700 Subject: Qantel minicomputer available. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E37804E.2000809@sbcglobal.net> I'm trying to find a home for my Qantel minicomputer. It's not the most exciting system, but it may be the last Qantel system around. The CHM turned it down do to lack of space so I thought someone here might be interested. It's a desk sized unit and includes a CRT terminal, two printers, a bunch of disk packs, and very little documentation. You can see some photos here: http://www.dvq.com/qantel/qantel.htm It's built out of TTL IC's and uses semiconductor memory. I'm not looking for money, just to find a nice home for it as I just need the space and it's now sitting outside! Located in beautiful Bonny Doon, CA in the Santa Cruz mountains. Pickup only, unless you can arrange shipping. Bob Rosenbloom From iamvirtual at gmail.com Mon Aug 1 16:40:02 2011 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 15:40:02 -0600 Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 Message-ID: I am in the process of adding a TMA-11 tape controller with a TS03 tape drive to my PDP-11/10 system which has a single RK05 drive attached. There no other devices attached. I removed the Unibus terminator out of the RK05 and connected the BC11 cable in it's place. The cable then goes to the TMA-11 controller. The TMA-11 controller does have a terminator as well (ie. it is the end of the Unibus). Previously, the PDP-11/10 and RK05 worked as expected. Now that the TMA-11 controller is connected, the RK05 drive does not spin up. When the 'Load' button is pressed on the RK05, I do hear the door lock solenoid engage, but the drive spin up. If the system is powered down and the cable to the TMA-11 is disconnected, the drive does spin up. Any ideas on why the RK05 would refuse to spin up when connected to the TMA-11? I am just looking for some pointers to narrow my search. Thanks! --barrym From useddec at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 00:26:59 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 00:26:59 -0500 Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the RK11-D in the last thing on the bus, remove the M930 terminator and place the BC11-A cable going to TM11 there, and then terminate the Unibus in the TM11. The RK05 can only be connected to another RK05 (or RK03), or the terminator. I hope that solves your problems, and good luck, that's a nice system. Paul On Mon, Aug 1, 2011 at 4:40 PM, B M wrote: > I am in the process of adding a TMA-11 tape controller with a TS03 > tape drive to my PDP-11/10 system > which has a single RK05 drive attached. ?There no other devices attached. > > I removed the Unibus terminator out of the RK05 and connected the BC11 > cable in it's place. ?The cable > then goes to the TMA-11 controller. ?The TMA-11 controller does have a > terminator as well (ie. it is the > end of the Unibus). > > Previously, the PDP-11/10 and RK05 worked as expected. > > Now that the TMA-11 controller is connected, the RK05 drive does not > spin up. ?When the 'Load' button is > pressed on the RK05, I do hear the door lock solenoid engage, but the > drive spin up. ?If the system is > powered down and the cable to the TMA-11 is disconnected, the drive > does spin up. > > Any ideas on why the RK05 would refuse to spin up when connected to > the TMA-11? ?I am just looking > for some pointers to narrow my search. > > Thanks! > > --barrym > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Aug 2 03:50:17 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 10:50:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2011, B M wrote: > I removed the Unibus terminator out of the RK05 and connected the BC11 > cable in it's place. The cable > then goes to the TMA-11 controller. The TMA-11 controller does have a > terminator as well (ie. it is the > end of the Unibus). Ouch! It's not Unibus going to the RK05! You have to plug the BC11 cable into the "Unibus out" slot of the RK11 backplane. > Any ideas on why the RK05 would refuse to spin up when connected to > the TMA-11? I am just looking The one is a disk drive, the other a tape controller. How should that work? Christian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 2 08:21:46 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 15:21:46 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <4E307B49.3070205@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110727131455.451f6d28.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E307B49.3070205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20110802152146.f1c65342.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:55:37 +0100 Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I don't have an isolating transformer. GND > > of the scope and GND of the PDP-11 are connected to earth of the mains > > plug. Because of this I connected both to the same power strip. I did > > _not_ connect the GND clip of the probe to GND of the PDP-11. If I had > > done this, I would have created a ground loop. This, of course, _will_ > > create problems. > Not necessarily, I do it all the time. And the lack of a local ground > is almost certainly where all that hum and noise is from. I scoped the voltages again with the probe grond clip connected today. I still get some noise, but this may be related to the ground problems of the scope and to the GND wires carrying current. So I am tempted to say the supply voltages are OK. Same for DCLO and ACLO. > > But if the M930 is enough and if the voltages are OK, why can't I halt > > the CPU with the control panel? There are NPR jumpers in the backplane > > and grand cards in emty slots. > Classic sign of something wrong with the bus grants. If the grant cards > are all the small type, are they the right way round? Is there one in > every slot, including the last (slot 9)? All empty slots have G727A grant cards. BRn / BGn connections facing away from the CPU. The NPR / NPG wires are still in place on the backplane, but in slot 8. This slot has a double with, non-DEC grant card that connets NPR and NPG in addition to BRn / BGn. I measured all NPR / NPG connections and they are shortened as expected. This is the Unibus configuration: 1: ABCDFE: M8266 2: ABCDEF: M8265 3: AB: M9301-YF CDEF: M7859 4: ABCDEF: RAM, 256 kB 5: ABC: empty D: M727A EF: empty 6: AB: empty CDEF: M7856 7: ABC: empty D: M727A EF: empty 8: AB: empty CD: Grant Card EF: empty 9: AB: M930 C: empty D: M727A EF: empty Still: Pressing CNTRL + HLT at the programmers console lights up the "Bus Error" LED a second later while the "Run" LED is still lit. I reconfigured the DL11-W for 9600 8n1 and soldered a new console cable. But I don't get anything from the serial console. Any ideas what to check next? -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Aug 2 08:48:38 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 09:48:38 -0400 Subject: defcon this week(end) Message-ID: <4E380036.6020709@verizon.net> Just curious if anyone was attending Defcon in Las Vegas that's going on this week and weekend? https://www.defcon.org/ I'm leaving for it Thursday. Keith From lproven at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 10:04:46 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:04:46 +0100 Subject: Collection for sale/ pickup In-Reply-To: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> References: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180BA50C3@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> Message-ID: On 1 August 2011 20:39, Michell, Brian wrote: > Hi all, > > I have reached a point where I must dissolve my collection. > I have just reached this decision, so this email is providing a head's up as it were. It seems so many people reach this point then have to get rid of their collection within the next n (where n is <10) days..... > I am in the process of making an inventory, but basically I have the following; > System 1. VAX 400VLC, 26in? Color monitor, external storage and CD w/caddy I've been after one of these for ages. I would be happy to pay shipping for the machine (and *possibly* the SCSI bits) and whatever you see fit as a handling charge for the inconvenience - but I can't collect, as I'm on a different continent and get around by bicycle! But if you'd be willing to sling the VLC into a padded box and post it to the UK, tell me what it would cost me & I will give it a caring new home. I don't need cables, keyboard, mice, monitor etc. - I have all them already. Just the system unit, really. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Aug 2 11:02:17 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:02:17 -0400 Subject: 74H55 comprehensive data sheet Message-ID: Page 7-24 in TI 1971 set: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ti/_dataBooks/1971_TI_IntegratedCircuits/07.pdf Expander gates will be about as clear as mud in the modern logic diagram sense if you look at a single chip. Make sure to look up the 74H60 or 74H62 which is the "other half". There was an early 70's TI TTL book (not so much databook but more of a cookbook/how-to book) aimed towards college students or guys new to TTL that illustrated expander gates in useful ways. By the 80's there are still pages in the TI databooks for the expander gates but you'd be stumped trying to decode them. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Aug 2 11:22:25 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 18:22:25 +0200 Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Christian Corti" Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:50 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: RK05 and TMA-11 > On Mon, 1 Aug 2011, B M wrote: >> I removed the Unibus terminator out of the RK05 and connected the BC11 >> cable in it's place. The cable >> then goes to the TMA-11 controller. The TMA-11 controller does have a >> terminator as well (ie. it is the >> end of the Unibus). > > Ouch! It's not Unibus going to the RK05! You have to plug the BC11 cable > into the "Unibus out" slot of the RK11 backplane. > >> Any ideas on why the RK05 would refuse to spin up when connected to >> the TMA-11? I am just looking > > The one is a disk drive, the other a tape controller. How should that > work? > > Christian Yeah :-( I once made the same mistake. DIGITAL used BC11 cables for more than only UNIBUS system unit interconnections. Other examples of BC11 cable usage is the RK05 drive connection and the TS03 control board (underneath the TS03 unit) to the TMB11. In my case I was so stupid to connect a BC11 cable connected to the control board underneath the TS03 to the UNIBUS-OUT of the last system unit. It did not work; I did not know that a controller (TMB11) was required. (no magic smoke though ...) So, the RK11-D (RK05 controller 4-slot system unit) has a UNIBUS-IN at slot 1 position A-B, and a UNIBUS-OUT at slot 4 position A-B. Slot 2 position A-B has the BC11 cable that goes to the RK05 drives and *nothing else*. Slot 3 position A is for a old-style power harness. For the TMB11 (also 4 slot system unit) UNIBUS-IN at slot 1 position A-B, and a UNIBUS-OUT at slot 4 position A-B. Slot 4 position A-B has the BC11 cable to the controller board underneath the TS03, and slot 3 position A-B has the M930 terminator for the bus to the TS03 controller. I hope you did not fry any logic by connecting the "RK05 UNIBUS" to the TS03 ... In my case the TS03 does not seem to work, so I will have to check out the controller board! - Henk. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 2 11:56:30 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 09:56:30 -0700 Subject: 74H55 comprehensive data sheet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E382C3E.1030401@bitsavers.org> On 8/2/11 9:02 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > There was an early 70's TI TTL book (not so much databook but more of a cookbook/how-to book) aimed towards college students or guys new to TTL that illustrated expander gates I remember it. It is part of a series including designing with MOS memories. I'm sure I have it somewhere. http://www.amazon.com/Designing-TTL-Integrated-Circuits-Instruments/dp/B000QB5C2O From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 2 14:08:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 20:08:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: from "B M" at Aug 1, 11 03:40:02 pm Message-ID: > Now that the TMA-11 controller is connected, the RK05 drive does not > spin up. When the 'Load' button is > pressed on the RK05, I do hear the door lock solenoid engage, but the > drive spin up. If the system is > powered down and the cable to the TMA-11 is disconnected, the drive > does spin up. > > Any ideas on why the RK05 would refuse to spin up when connected to > the TMA-11? I am just looking > for some pointers to narrow my search. IIRC, an RK05 will not spin up (and will retract the heads and spin down) if ACLO or DCLO are asseted (I forget if it's just one of those signals, or either of them), the idea being to shut the drive down safely if the mains fails. Could the TMA-11 be asserting these signals? If it has its own PSU (and I would ahve thought it did), is it possible that this is failing in some way and cuasing the singal to be asserted? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 2 14:10:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 20:10:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: 74H55 comprehensive data sheet In-Reply-To: from "Rich Alderson" at Aug 1, 11 04:26:29 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone on the list happen to have a comprehensive data sheet for > this part? What do you mean by a 'comprehensive data sheet'? It'll be mentioned in one of my older TTL handbooks, I'll have a pinout and basic timing informaion. Is that all you'd need? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 2 14:17:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 20:17:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: 74H55 comprehensive data sheet In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Aug 2, 11 12:02:17 pm Message-ID: > > Page 7-24 in TI 1971 set: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ti/_dataBooks/1971_TI_IntegratedCirc= > uits/07.pdf > > Expander gates will be about as clear as mud in the modern logic diagram se= > nse if you look at a single chip. Make sure to look up the 74H60 or 74H62 w= > hich is the "other half". I shouid mention at this point that the signals between an expander and the associated AND-OR-Invert gate are not normal TTL logic signals. They are, perhaps straight onto the bases of transsitors. You can damage the AOI if you short them to power rails in some cases. This is something that many people working on HP9800 machines have discovered the hard way. It gets a menion in my repair tips for such machines as a result... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 2 14:20:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 20:20:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: from "B M" at Aug 1, 11 03:40:02 pm Message-ID: > > I am in the process of adding a TMA-11 tape controller with a TS03 > tape drive to my PDP-11/10 system > which has a single RK05 drive attached. There no other devices attached. > > I removed the Unibus terminator out of the RK05 and connected the BC11 Do you mean 'RK05' here? While the RK05s use Unibus cables and terminators (M930), the signals are most certainly not Unibus. The RK11 controller (may be an RK11-C or an RK11-D) has Unibus In and Unibus Out connections and a connection of the cabel to the drive. Assuming the RK11 is the last device on the Unibus, remove the M930 from its Unibus Out slot, and plug a cable between there and the Unibus In connector on the TMA-11 -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Aug 2 15:39:20 2011 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 21:39:20 +0100 Subject: 74H55 comprehensive data sheet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E386078.4090107@gifford.co.uk> Shoppa, Tim wrote: > There was an early 70's TI TTL book (not so much databook but > more of a cookbook/how-to book) aimed towards college students > or guys new to TTL that illustrated expander gates in useful > ways. Are you thinking of the 1973 "System 74 Designers Manual"? It mentions the 74H55 pinout on page 48 (it's different from the 74L55 pinout), but I haven't found a full data sheet in there. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 2 17:11:39 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 15:11:39 -0700 Subject: Looking for old Memorex gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Memorex was the first independent disk pack manufacturer, beating Caelus by several months. The decoder ring for you IBM types 1316: Mark I (2311) 2316: Mark VI (2314) 3336: Mark X (3330) 3336-11: Mark XI (3330-11) 3348 Data Module: Data Mark I don't think Telex was first in any disk area, first PCM tape subsystems for sure. Memorex was first to ship a 2311 PCM and OEM and the first to ship a 2314 OEM. ISS probably beat Memorex on a 2314 PCM and I don't have a clue as to 3330. Of course the first OEM disk drive company was Bryant. Tom > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2011 13:25:13 -0400 > From: "Shoppa, Tim" > To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Re: Looking for old Memorex gear > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > 3) Mark I, V, VI, X or XI disk packs > > I'm not familiar with those model names but I suspect I might know them as > a "Memorex brand 2315 cartridge" or "Memorex brand 3330 pack" or similar. > > Was Memorex the first maker of IBM-compatible packs? Where did Caelus come > in the scheme? > > For a while in the mid-2000's there was a Memorex brand USB keychain > drive, which I swear was styled to look exactly like a miniature little > disk pack. Not a very efficient of pocket space but wow, did it look like > an old disk pack :-). > > > 4) A Data Mark module > > Help refresh my memory... Data Mark was Memorex's version of the IBM 3348? > Head and positioner inside the cartridge? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2011 10:56:16 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Looking for old Memorex gear > Message-ID: <4E368650.17242.93B3F3 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 1 Aug 2011 at 13:25, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > > > Was Memorex the first maker of IBM-compatible packs? Where did Caelus > > come in the scheme? > > Would perhaps Telex be the first, at least for the 3330 disk drives? > > --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 2 18:16:12 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 16:16:12 -0700 Subject: Looking for old Memorex gear In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E3822CC.1594.18E179F@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2011 at 15:11, Tom Gardner wrote: > Memorex was the first independent disk pack manufacturer, beating > Caelus by several months. The decoder ring for you IBM types 1316: > Mark I (2311) 2316: Mark VI (2314) 3336: Mark X (3330) 3336-11: Mark > XI (3330-11) 3348 Data Module: Data Mark Where does CDC fit into this picture? The 852 drive was pretty much a work-alike for the 2311 and the 849 packs were interchangeable. Circa 1966? --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 2 18:33:09 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 01:33:09 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110802152146.f1c65342.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110727003309.96e3a6cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110727131455.451f6d28.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E307B49.3070205@dunnington.plus.com> <20110802152146.f1c65342.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110803013309.534344e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 2 Aug 2011 15:21:46 +0200 Jochen Kunz wrote: > Any ideas what to check next? Meanwhile I found: http://www.retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-1134-programmers-console which describes how to use the programmers console for basic bus testing. I removed all cards but M9301-YF (bus terminator + ROM), M7859 (programmers console interface) and M930 (bus terminator). I tried to read back the Switch Register as described in the URL above and it doesn't work. I don't even get a bus error, when I remove the terminators. The "Run" LED is always lit. The manual states that examine and deposit commands are only possible when the processor is in halt state. But there is no processor and even if there is one, I get a "Bus Error" when I try to halt the CPU by pressing CNTRL + HLT. So I suspect that the console does not execute examine and deposit because it thinks the CPU is still running. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 19:41:26 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 02:41:26 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/74 gallery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 05:49, Zane H. Healy wrote: > **** That's beautiful! Thanks for posting that link, I was unaware of the > photo's. Which system is that? Is that the one in Colorado Springs? > More info there : https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.sys.pdp11/pPkDsBvS7-I St?ohane > Zane > > > On Tue, 2 Aug 2011, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > > Hi, >> >> I don't know if this was posted here before : >> https://picasaweb.google.com/**104560031285123036919/Pdp1174?** >> authuser=0&authkey=**Gv1sRgCM2Ph96t0O2QQg >> >> Enjoy ;-) >> >> -- >> Stephane >> http://www.freedonne.org help scientific and medical research. Join >> FreeDonne. >> > -- Stephane http://www.freedonne.org help scientific and medical research. Join FreeDonne. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 2 20:32:33 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 18:32:33 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/74 gallery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E38A531.20806@bitsavers.org> On 8/1/11 8:49 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is that the one in Colorado Springs? > yes. you can see "Castor funeral" on the front panel. https://picasaweb.google.com/104560031285123036919/Pdp1174?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCM2Ph96t0O2QQg#5632655735234439586 the pair were Castor/Pollux From iamvirtual at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 13:30:52 2011 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 12:30:52 -0600 Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 Message-ID: Paul Anderson wrote: > If the RK11-D in the last thing on the bus, remove the M930 terminator > and place the BC11-A cable going to TM11 there, and then terminate the > Unibus in the TM11. The RK05 can only be connected to another RK05 > (or RK03), or the terminator. > > I hope that solves your problems, and good luck, that's a nice system. Thanks. I am using it as my test system before I tackle my PDP-11/20 system. > > Paul Yikes! I checked the PDP-11 and the RK05. I am happy to report that both survived the newbie torture test!! RT11 w/ MUBAS is still operational :-) I never considered the fact that the bus inside the main system is so tailored to the cards installed within them, especially on a slot by slot basis. If I understand things correctly, the first RK05 drive cable is attached to the bus opposite the M7255 card. The RK05's are daisy chained together. The last RK05 has an M930 terminator. In the main cabinet, the M930 terminator opposite the M7257 card is removed and the BC11 cable leading to the 1st slot in the TMA-11 is installed. The M930 terminator in the TMA-11 now becomes the Unibus terminator. If the entire Unibus chain is <50 ft, then we are good. Are all BC11 cables the same? I see some with M919 connectors and others with M929? Many thanks! PS. I am still looking for an installable RSTS-11 (version 4 or LESS) so I can prep an RK05 drive under SimH where I can copy the image onto a real RK05 disk pack (I wrote some software to do this) --barrym From james at machineroom.info Tue Aug 2 14:39:12 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 20:39:12 +0100 Subject: Qantel minicomputer available. In-Reply-To: <4E37804E.2000809@sbcglobal.net> References: <4E37804E.2000809@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4E385260.7010707@machineroom.info> Nice... I was about to respond with information that the father of one of my colleagues was head of R&D at Quantel in the early days. Then I spotted that there's a Quantel and a Qantel. How confusing is that?! J On 02/08/2011 05:42, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I'm trying to find a home for my Qantel minicomputer. It's not the most > exciting system, but it may be the last Qantel system around. The CHM > turned it down do to lack of space so I thought someone here might be > interested. > > It's a desk sized unit and includes a CRT terminal, two printers, > a bunch of disk packs, and very little documentation. You can see > some photos here: > > http://www.dvq.com/qantel/qantel.htm > > It's built out of TTL IC's and uses semiconductor memory. > > I'm not looking for money, just to find a nice home for it as I just > need the space > and it's now sitting outside! > > Located in beautiful Bonny Doon, CA in the Santa Cruz mountains. > Pickup only, > unless you can arrange shipping. > > Bob Rosenbloom > > From pinball at telus.net Tue Aug 2 16:52:16 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2011 14:52:16 -0700 Subject: FS: eBay: Uscope 820 8080 computer (not mine) Message-ID: <4E387190.1070501@telus.net> Spotted this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Intel-Uscope-820-8080-8085-Microprocessor-IBM-/110723184838 John :-#)# From iamvirtual at gmail.com Tue Aug 2 17:36:36 2011 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2011 16:36:36 -0600 Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: When I actually *looked* at the BC11 cable, it appears one end of the cable uses a M919 card and the other end is a M929 card. It appears that the cable is straight-through, except for those lines which are disconnected or tied to a sibling pin. --barrym On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:30 PM, B M wrote: > Paul Anderson ?wrote: >> If the RK11-D in the last thing on the bus, remove the M930 terminator >> and place the BC11-A cable going to TM11 there, and then terminate the >> Unibus in the TM11. ?The RK05 can only be connected to another RK05 >> (or RK03), or the terminator. >> >> I hope that solves your problems, and good luck, that's a nice system. > Thanks. ?I am using it as my test system before I tackle my PDP-11/20 > system. >> >> Paul > > Yikes! ?I checked the PDP-11 and the RK05. ?I am happy to report that both > survived the newbie torture test!! ?RT11 w/ MUBAS is still operational :-) > > I never considered the fact that the bus inside the main system is so tailored > to the cards installed within them, especially on a slot by slot basis. > > If I understand things correctly, the first RK05 drive cable is > attached to the bus > opposite the M7255 card. ?The RK05's are daisy chained together. ?The last > RK05 has an M930 terminator. In the main cabinet, the M930 terminator > opposite the M7257 card is removed and the BC11 cable leading to the 1st > slot in the TMA-11 is installed. ?The M930 terminator in the TMA-11 now > becomes the Unibus terminator. ?If the entire Unibus chain is <50 ft, then we > are good. > > Are all BC11 cables the same? ?I see some with M919 connectors and others > with M929? > > Many thanks! > > PS. I am still looking for an installable RSTS-11 (version 4 or LESS) so I can > prep an RK05 drive under SimH where I can copy the image onto a real RK05 > disk pack (I wrote some software to do this) > > --barrym > From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Aug 3 11:06:02 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 11:06:02 -0500 Subject: Science Museum Article In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, I'm trying to get caught up on my Physics Today collection (no, I'm not, I just read the mag). There was an article in the October 2010 issue, entitled "The Evolution of the Science Museum". I think that article might be of interest to any of you who are in the process of trying to make your collections publicly accessible. Anyone who is interested, please contact me for details. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 13:19:35 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 13:19:35 -0500 Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't remember the difference between the M929 and the M919, but I have always found the Unibus Cable to be totally reversible. The BC11A , which happens to be Unibus cable, is the part number. The -06, -08, -10 etc is the length of the cable in feet. This is true with most if not all BCxx- cables. The same applies to BNxx- cables, except the length is metric. I hope this helps. Paul On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 5:36 PM, B M wrote: > When I actually *looked* at the BC11 cable, it appears one end of the > cable uses a M919 card and the other end is a M929 card. It appears > that the cable is straight-through, except for those lines which are > disconnected or tied to a sibling pin. > > --barrym > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:30 PM, B M wrote: >> Paul Anderson ?wrote: >>> If the RK11-D in the last thing on the bus, remove the M930 terminator >>> and place the BC11-A cable going to TM11 there, and then terminate the >>> Unibus in the TM11. ?The RK05 can only be connected to another RK05 >>> (or RK03), or the terminator. >>> >>> I hope that solves your problems, and good luck, that's a nice system. >> Thanks. ?I am using it as my test system before I tackle my PDP-11/20 >> system. >>> >>> Paul >> >> Yikes! ?I checked the PDP-11 and the RK05. ?I am happy to report that both >> survived the newbie torture test!! ?RT11 w/ MUBAS is still operational :-) >> >> I never considered the fact that the bus inside the main system is so tailored >> to the cards installed within them, especially on a slot by slot basis. >> >> If I understand things correctly, the first RK05 drive cable is >> attached to the bus >> opposite the M7255 card. ?The RK05's are daisy chained together. ?The last >> RK05 has an M930 terminator. In the main cabinet, the M930 terminator >> opposite the M7257 card is removed and the BC11 cable leading to the 1st >> slot in the TMA-11 is installed. ?The M930 terminator in the TMA-11 now >> becomes the Unibus terminator. ?If the entire Unibus chain is <50 ft, then we >> are good. >> >> Are all BC11 cables the same? ?I see some with M919 connectors and others >> with M929? >> >> Many thanks! >> >> PS. I am still looking for an installable RSTS-11 (version 4 or LESS) so I can >> prep an RK05 drive under SimH where I can copy the image onto a real RK05 >> disk pack (I wrote some software to do this) >> >> --barrym >> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 3 15:11:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:11:15 -0400 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E2D85A2.21393.1722032@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com>, <1311611441.24999.YahooMailClassic@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4E2D85A2.21393.1722032@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E39AB63.7050000@neurotica.com> On 7/25/11 6:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Has anyone benchmarked a Z80H at 8 MHz against an 8088 at 4.77 MHz? I haven't actually benchmarked it, but side-by-side my 4MHz Z80-based S100 system spanked my 8MHz 8088-based PC clone back in the day. Installing a NEC V20 mostly evened it out. I actually built that PC clone to use as a terminal to my PDP-11. That was (and probably still is) the best use for a PeeCee. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 3 15:06:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:06:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: from "B M" at Aug 2, 11 12:30:52 pm Message-ID: > Yikes! I checked the PDP-11 and the RK05. I am happy to report that both > survived the newbie torture test!! RT11 w/ MUBAS is still operational :-) DEc machines had to be able to stand up to all that Failed Circus could throw at them :-) More seriosuly, the signals on both the Unibus and RK05 cables are mostly open-collector TTL. Interconnecting those at random won't damage any hardware, there can't even be contention between outputs. Be warned though that many backplane slots carry power rails, including those other than 5V. Connecto one of those to a TTL input and the magic smoke comes out. In partcular, on some connectors, pin B2 is -15V, but there are M-series flip-chip cards that have a logic input on that pin. Plugging onbe of those cards into a 'spare' slot jsut to power it up for testing will let the smoke out (guess how I found _that_ out...) > > I never considered the fact that the bus inside the main system is so tailored > to the cards installed within them, especially on a slot by slot basis. Thatr depends on the machine, the backplanes, etc. In general, the CPU backplane will have dedicated slots fro CPU boards, They must go in the right slots. Core memory often has its own custom-wired slots too (for the core plane, address drivers and sense/inhibit (data) boards), which may be part of the CPU backplane, or may be another backplane. For periperhal devices, there are single-board ones known as SPCs (Small Peripheral Controllers). There may be some SPC slots in the CPU backplane, there are backplanes of SPC slots too. The inbterrupt and NPR (DMA) priority is daetermined by whcih slot a device is in (nearer the CPU -> higher priority), other than that the slots are equivelent. Other peripheral devices are somplete backplanes full of boards. You have to put those boards in the right slots in the right backplane. > > If I understand things correctly, the first RK05 drive cable is > attached to the bus > opposite the M7255 card. The RK05's are daisy chained together. The last There are 2 different RK05 controllers used with the PDP11s It sounds like you have an RK11-D, which is a special 4-slot backplane containing 4 quad cardss (I think M7254 to M7257). This boards must be in the right slots in that backplane. You need to get the RK11-D printset, It'll show you where the various cabels and boards connect. Note that in a lot of cases the backplane layout is shown looking at the wire-wrap side fo thge backplane, a mirror image of what yo'd expect. Caught me once... >From what I rememebem the Unibus In and Unibus Out are in the normal places, so you can put the RK11-D to the left of the previous backplane (or the CPU backplane), put an M920 conenctor betweem Unibus Out of the previous backplen and Unibus In of the RK11-D, and continue i nthat way if you want ot add more backpalens. Oh, and put the Unibus Terminator in the UInibus Out of the last backplane. One of the remianing 2 AB connectors carries the BC11 cable to the drive(s). The other carries a power connector and provices a place for a KM11 test board. > RK05 has an M930 terminator. In the main cabinet, the M930 terminator > opposite the M7257 card is removed and the BC11 cable leading to the 1st > slot in the TMA-11 is installed. The M930 terminator in the TMA-11 now > becomes the Unibus terminator. If the entire Unibus chain is <50 ft, then we > are good. Sounds right. Incidentally, don't worry too mauch about Unibus length and loading limits. They are very much on the 'safe side', and it's very uncommon for there to be problems. > > Are all BC11 cables the same? I see some with M919 connectors and others > with M929? AFAIK they are all the same. I thoguht the PCBs at the 2 ends were diffeent, so you could have a pair of tapewires joining them without the tapewiare crossign over, and without getting a mirror reflection between the contacts on the 2 ends. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 3 15:09:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:09:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: from "B M" at Aug 2, 11 04:36:36 pm Message-ID: > > When I actually *looked* at the BC11 cable, it appears one end of the > cable uses a M919 card and the other end is a M929 card. It appears > that the cable is straight-through, except for those lines which are > disconnected or tied to a sibling pin. That sounds right. There are several ground pins that might well be tied together in the cable. The Unibus cable does not carry power lines (just signals and grounds). but there is a +5V power pin on a Unibus Out connector, to power the terminator. That pin is not connected in the cable. Apart from that, the pinout is the same at both ends. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 3 15:14:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:14:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110803013309.534344e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 3, 11 01:33:09 am Message-ID: > The "Run" LED is always lit. The manual states that examine and deposit > commands are only possible when the processor is in halt state. But I don't have the prints in front of me, but is that a possible starting point? I ssume there's a signal from the CPU to the console controller to indicate that the CPU is running. With hte CPU removed, does this float in the 'halted' state? (I assume it does, if the manual suggests resting the thing without the CPU boards fitted). Maybe you can check this, and check the input circuitry for this signal on the console controller -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 15:23:56 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 16:23:56 -0400 Subject: RK05 and TMA-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 2:30 PM, B M wrote: > Yikes! ?I checked the PDP-11 and the RK05. ?I am happy to report that both > survived the newbie torture test!! ?RT11 w/ MUBAS is still operational :-) > > I never considered the fact that the bus inside the main system is so tailored > to the cards installed within them, especially on a slot by slot basis. Mostly, DEC stuff is pretty robust for wrong slot/wrong orientation mistakes. One exception I know of has to do with MUD (Modified Unibus Device) slots and PSU voltages. http://retrocmp.com/how-tos/setup-a-pdp-11-unibus-backplane -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 3 15:32:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:32:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E39AB63.7050000@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 3, 11 04:11:15 pm Message-ID: > I actually built that PC clone to use as a terminal to my PDP-11. > That was (and probably still is) the best use for a PeeCee. ;) But probalby not the best way to get a terminal for your PDP11. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 3 15:40:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 16:40:39 -0400 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E39B247.2030305@neurotica.com> On 8/3/11 4:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I actually built that PC clone to use as a terminal to my PDP-11. >> That was (and probably still is) the best use for a PeeCee. ;) > > But probalby not the best way to get a terminal for your PDP11. No, it was vastly inferior to my Hazeltine Esprit, mostly due to the whacked-out PC keyboard layout and crappy CGA video quality (which is fuzzy nearly to the point of being unusable in my opinion), but it worked ok otherwise. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 3 16:38:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:38:59 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E39AB63.7050000@neurotica.com> References: <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E2D85A2.21393.1722032@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E39AB63.7050000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E395D83.3616.1662201@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2011 at 16:11, Dave McGuire wrote: > I actually built that PC clone to use as a terminal to my PDP-11. > That was (and probably still is) the best use for a PeeCee. ;) I used mine as a terminal to a VAX 11/750. It had issues keeping up at 19.2K. I think I was using Procomm at the time. The big advantage over a conventional terminal was the capability of capturing output to a file or sending a file to the VAX. And the keyboard was better than that on the C. Itoh VT220 terminals that everyone else was using. This allowed me to do my editing off-line-- or even take my work home. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 3 16:46:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Aug 2011 14:46:51 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E39AB63.7050000@neurotica.com> References: <4E2BF31A.1169.5FC63F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E2D85A2.21393.1722032@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E39AB63.7050000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E395F5B.4172.16D5302@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2011 at 16:11, Dave McGuire wrote: > I haven't actually benchmarked it, but side-by-side my 4MHz > Z80-based S100 system spanked my 8MHz 8088-based PC clone back in the > day. Installing a NEC V20 mostly evened it out. A lot of early PC software was written rather inefficiently. I recall that MASM 1.0 was very slow. Needed 64K without macros and 96K with. Ugly, buggy as heck. I mostly cross-assembled in the early days. It was easier than trying to use the native MS-DOS program. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 3 18:31:19 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 01:31:19 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: References: <20110803013309.534344e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110804013119.5156c3a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:14:19 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > The "Run" LED is always lit. The manual states that examine and deposit > > commands are only possible when the processor is in halt state. But > I don't have the prints in front of me, but is that a possible starting > point? I ssume there's a signal from the CPU to the console controller to > indicate that the CPU is running. With hte CPU removed, does this float > in the 'halted' state? (I assume it does, if the manual suggests resting > the thing without the CPU boards fitted). Maybe you can check this, and > check the input circuitry for this signal on the console controller This is about where I am at the moment: I try to figure out how the Run LED is controled. Unfortunately the scans of the prints are close to unreadable. The other question is: Does the 8008 microprocessor in the console interface honor the HLT signal at all? I surely don't want to go as far as reverse engineer the 8008 firmware. I am also reading the "pdp11 bus handbook" to educate myself about the Unibus protocoll. Intention is to hook up a scope or logic analyzer to the bus and try to capture bus transactions. Unfortunately the book doesn't talk abut SPC slots and the HALT signals are a SPC only. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From useddec at gmail.com Wed Aug 3 19:13:04 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:13:04 -0500 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110804013119.5156c3a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110803013309.534344e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110804013119.5156c3a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Bitsavers might have a copy of the Unibus troubleshooting guide. It might help. Paul On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 6:31 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 21:14:19 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> > The "Run" LED is always lit. The manual states that examine and deposit >> > commands are only possible when the processor is in halt state. But >> I don't have the prints in front of me, but is that a possible starting >> point? I ssume there's a signal from the CPU to the console controller to >> indicate that the CPU is running. With hte CPU removed, does this float >> in the 'halted' state? (I assume it does, if the manual suggests resting >> the thing without the CPU boards fitted). Maybe you can check this, and >> check the input circuitry for this signal on the console controller > This is about where I am at the moment: I try to figure out how the Run > LED is controled. Unfortunately the scans of the prints are close to > unreadable. The other question is: Does the 8008 microprocessor in the > console interface honor the HLT signal at all? I surely don't want to > go as far as reverse engineer the 8008 firmware. > > I am also reading the "pdp11 bus handbook" to educate myself about the > Unibus protocoll. Intention is to hook up a scope or logic analyzer to > the bus and try to capture bus transactions. Unfortunately the book > doesn't talk abut SPC slots and the HALT signals are a SPC only. > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 4 02:26:41 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 09:26:41 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: References: <20110803013309.534344e6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110804013119.5156c3a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110804092641.df1b1559.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 3 Aug 2011 19:13:04 -0500 Paul Anderson wrote: > Bitsavers might have a copy of the Unibus troubleshooting guide. > It might help. Gues what PDF, amog many others, I am currently reading... :-( Meanwhile I deciphered (halfway) the halt / bus busy section of the programmers console. As far as I can make a sense out of this mess (the printset is erroneous, confusing and barely readable), the Run LED should go off as soon as I put the console in bus master mode via the maintenance mode "5". But this doesn't happen. Either because it never enters maintenance bus master mode or some other condition clears this mode immediately... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 4 13:30:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:30:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: <4E395D83.3616.1662201@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 3, 11 02:38:59 pm Message-ID: [PCs as terminals] > The big advantage over a conventional terminal was the capability of > capturing output to a file or sending a file to the VAX. And the YEs, that was one of the reasons I bought my first PC. Although I had other machines tht could emulate a terminal, an MS-DOS floppy disk was by then a de-facto standard, and beign able to transfer files between one of my machines and such a disk was very handy. Icidentally, the first pC I owned was a genuineb 5160 PC/XT (It still runs, it's in front of me now). I tracked down that model because I had access to the TechRef (well, you know me by now...) > keyboard was better than that on the C. Itoh VT220 terminals that > everyone else was using. This allowed me to do my editing off-line-- > or even take my work home. Reminds me of the tremrinal emiulator ROM for th HP9830, whcih allowed you to transfer a file between the 9830's memory and the communcation link and to store/retrieve it from an HP9830 tape. HP advertised this as being able to save on timesharing system storage charges. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 4 13:37:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:37:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110804013119.5156c3a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 4, 11 01:31:19 am Message-ID: > I am also reading the "pdp11 bus handbook" to educate myself about the > Unibus protocoll. Intention is to hook up a scope or logic analyzer to > the bus and try to capture bus transactions. Unfortunately the book > doesn't talk abut SPC slots and the HALT signals are a SPC only. Eh? The SPC signasl are a rearrangement of the Unibus signals (those found on the A/B conenctor at the end of the CPU backpalen, for example). That's why a simple backplane with no logic can provide SPC slots from a Unibus cable. The HALT signal is not, AFAIK, a Unibus signal at all. It's a 'local' signal between the PCU and the console controller. These boards (CPU and console) have to be plugged int toe hright slots of the special CPU backplane as a result. Incidentalluy lookign at Unius cycles with a logic analyser is quite easy. I normally trigger on the falling edge of MSYN, qalified by the address lines. You need a lot og LA channels to be useful, though. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 4 16:04:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Aug 2011 14:04:08 -0700 Subject: is this the first Pentium box IBM made? In-Reply-To: References: <4E395D83.3616.1662201@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 3, 11 02:38:59 pm, Message-ID: <4E3AA6D8.16663.EEAFF1@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2011 at 19:30, Tony Duell wrote: > Reminds me of the tremrinal emiulator ROM for th HP9830, whcih allowed > you to transfer a file between the 9830's memory and the communcation > link and to store/retrieve it from an HP9830 tape. HP advertised this > as being able to save on timesharing system storage charges. When I had an Altair 8800 box and no disk drives, I used a 2-cassette tape paper-tape emulator (one drive could read/search; the other could read/write/ and search). I believe it was a unit by Techtran. I also had a Beehive SuperBee terminal that could be put into page editing mode. And I had a modem from a TI Silent 700. I'd dial into work as a terminal, write my program code to the tape unit, then go offline. I'd swap tapes, read the data in a page at a time into the Beehive, edit it, then write it to the other tape. Later, I'd stream the edited text back to the mainframe at work. Some of the early word processors (e.g. CPT) worked this way also, just with floppy disks. You'd edit a page at a time, then send it back to the CPU for writing. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 5 10:15:12 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 17:15:12 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: References: <20110804013119.5156c3a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110805171512.3bef09b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:37:35 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Eh? The SPC signasl are a rearrangement of the Unibus signals I know. > The HALT signal is not, AFAIK, a Unibus signal at all. And this is the problem. These signals are available in a SPC slot and used by the console but not covered by the Unibus documentation. I still have to google for a description of those signals. > Incidentalluy lookign at Unius cycles with a logic analyser is quite > easy. I normally trigger on the falling edge of MSYN, qalified by the > address lines. You need a lot og LA channels to be useful, though. I have 40 channels at 50 MHz or 16 at 300 MHz. That should be enough for some basic testing. A friend gave me an isolating transformer. So I can exclude ground loop problems. He will give me a logic probe also next week. This seems to be a simple but helpfull and effective test tool. I checked the +5 V supply again using the isolating transformer. Voltages look much cleaner now. But I get a dampened oszilation with ca. 0.5 Vpp. This occures at about 17.8 kHz. Seems to be "ring" from the SMPSU as I have only a very low load. http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.1V__x=20us.jpg http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/tmp/5_Volt_Ripple__y=0.1V__x=0.1us.jpg -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Aug 5 10:27:14 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 08:27:14 -0700 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110805171512.3bef09b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110804013119.5156c3a6.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110805171512.3bef09b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Aug 5, 2011, at 8:15 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:37:35 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> Eh? The SPC signasl are a rearrangement of the Unibus signals > I know. > >> The HALT signal is not, AFAIK, a Unibus signal at all. > And this is the problem. These signals are available in a SPC slot and > used by the console but not covered by the Unibus documentation. I > still have to google for a description of those signals. > >> Incidentalluy lookign at Unius cycles with a logic analyser is quite >> easy. I normally trigger on the falling edge of MSYN, qalified by the >> address lines. You need a lot og LA channels to be useful, though. > I have 40 channels at 50 MHz or 16 at 300 MHz. That should be enough > for some basic testing. A friend gave me an isolating transformer. So I > can exclude ground loop problems. He will give me a logic probe also > next week. This seems to be a simple but helpfull and effective test > tool. You also might want to look at: http://www.shiresoft.com/products/ua11/Unibus Analyzer.html (and yes, it's a shameless plug!). TTFN - Guy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 5 12:37:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 18:37:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110805171512.3bef09b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 5, 11 05:15:12 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2011 19:37:35 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Eh? The SPC signasl are a rearrangement of the Unibus signals > I know. > > > The HALT signal is not, AFAIK, a Unibus signal at all. > And this is the problem. These signals are available in a SPC slot and My point (and I am being pedantic I suppose) is that this is not an SPC slot. It's a special slot for the console controller. > used by the console but not covered by the Unibus documentation. I > still have to google for a description of those signals. Good luck!. There may be something in an 11/34 techncial manaul, but much of the time on thigns like this I find I have to work them out from the schemcatics. > > > Incidentalluy lookign at Unius cycles with a logic analyser is quite > > easy. I normally trigger on the falling edge of MSYN, qalified by the > > address lines. You need a lot og LA channels to be useful, though. > I have 40 channels at 50 MHz or 16 at 300 MHz. That should be enough Plenty :-) > for some basic testing. A friend gave me an isolating transformer. So I > can exclude ground loop problems. He will give me a logic probe also > next week. This seems to be a simple but helpfull and effective test > tool. A logic probe is very useful,but bve warned it doesn't give the full story. The prove will tell you if a clock is running, or if a data line is stuck high or low, but if it shows a signal as changing, it tells you nothing abotu the timing of that signal. That;s what you use the 'scope of logic analyser for (and yes, I have been cuaght by this...) My favourite tool for going over a machine looking for silly faults is a LogicDart, which combines a logic rpboe with a simple3-channel logic analyser. Problem it,s it's not an easy thing to find (and AFAIK there's no modern replacemetn that does quite the same thing). > > I checked the +5 V supply again using the isolating transformer. > Voltages look much cleaner now. But I get a dampened oszilation with > ca. 0.5 Vpp. This occures at about 17.8 kHz. Seems to be "ring" from > the SMPSU as I have only a very low load That sounds like noise at the switching frequency. My guess is that it means the output capacitor (IIRC the second-largest one in the module) oin the 5V regualor brick is developing a high ESR. Probably worth testing/replacing it. -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Aug 5 13:11:44 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 11:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: ASR33 TTY 1-inch paper Message-ID: <1312567904.95118.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello, I seemingly now have my ASR-33 TTY 100% operational. It works in both LOCAL and REMOTE. Now I just need more 1-inch 'oiled' paper for the reader/writer. Is there a source? Thanks- Steve. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Aug 5 17:01:37 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2011 23:01:37 +0100 Subject: Qantel minicomputer available. In-Reply-To: <4E385260.7010707@machineroom.info> References: <4E37804E.2000809@sbcglobal.net> <4E385260.7010707@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4E3C6841.6050802@philpem.me.uk> On 02/08/11 20:39, James Wilson wrote: > Nice... I was about to respond with information that the father of one > of my colleagues was head of R&D at Quantel in the early days. Then I > spotted that there's a Quantel and a Qantel. How confusing is that?! The same Quantel that designed (and sold) the Paintbox graphics editing systems? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 5 18:43:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2011 17:43:18 -0600 Subject: Qantel minicomputer available. In-Reply-To: <4E3C6841.6050802@philpem.me.uk> References: <4E37804E.2000809@sbcglobal.net> <4E385260.7010707@machineroom.info> <4E3C6841.6050802@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4E3C6841.6050802 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > On 02/08/11 20:39, James Wilson wrote: > > Nice... I was about to respond with information that the father of one > > of my colleagues was head of R&D at Quantel in the early days. Then I > > spotted that there's a Quantel and a Qantel. How confusing is that?! > > The same Quantel that designed (and sold) the Paintbox graphics editing > systems? Quantel made the paintbox. Qantel made a business minicomputer. Definately confusing. I'd love to have paintbox stuff, but I've never seen it anywhere. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 5 23:49:49 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 23:49:49 -0500 Subject: WANTED: ASR33 TTY 1-inch paper In-Reply-To: <1312567904.95118.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1312567904.95118.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: do a quik google On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 1:11 PM, steven stengel wrote: > Hello, > I seemingly now have my ASR-33 TTY 100% operational. It works in both LOCAL > and REMOTE. > > Now I just need more 1-inch 'oiled' paper for the reader/writer. > Is there a source? > > Thanks- > Steve. > > > From jeffj at panix.com Fri Aug 5 12:28:39 2011 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2011 13:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > [PCs as terminals] >> The big advantage over a conventional terminal >> was the capability of >> capturing output to a file or sending a file Part of me still craves dedicated terminals since they're just so reliable, and you can just swap in another when it breaks. No (or few) stored settings. Even "smart terminals" such as the BLIT and "thin clients" are a pleasure to use when in a properly supported environment. But I'll admit that PROCOMM is still a wonderful program, emulating all sorts of terminals with screen capture, session capture and file transfer. Not long ago, I used a DOS laptop with PROCOMM for an embedded processor lab so I was up and running instantly and consistently. > Incidentally, the first PC I owned was a genuine 5160 PC/XT > (It still runs, it's in front of me now). Nice! There's been a resurgence in appreciation of the "classics". MARCH: the NJ Vintage Computer Museum has a 5100 and 5150 on display! > Reminds me of the tremrinal emiulator ROM for th HP9830, Sweet! Google found this for pix and desc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_9800_series_desktop_computers My high school started everyone with programming BASIC on the HP 9820A: http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp9820.htm http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/hp9820a.html Somewhere I have 2 of the 'extra capacity' cards (HP Part #9162-0045): 10 1/2" inches long, storing 90 memory registers per side. I traded it away long ago, but I had a HP terminal that was extremely "smart" - the lid opened up to add cards for RAM or peripherals - I think it allowed 1-2 tape drives to store/xmt files - the CRT was a 2:1 aspect ratio: twice as wide as high. - external keyboard that was too thick and heavy to ever put on your lap! -- jeffj From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 6 03:03:47 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 10:03:47 +0200 Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: References: <20110805171512.3bef09b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110806100347.496eea9b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 5 Aug 2011 18:37:59 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > My point (and I am being pedantic I suppose) is that this is not an SPC > slot. It's a special slot for the console controller. OK. Lets say it is a SPC slot with some special, non-standard signals added. ;-) > A logic probe is very useful,but bve warned it doesn't give the full > story. The prove will tell you if a clock is running, or if a data line > is stuck high or low, That is the exact thing I need for simple, basic tests. > but if it shows a signal as changing, it tells you > nothing abotu the timing of that signal. That;s what you use the 'scope > of logic analyser for (and yes, I have been cuaght by this...) Sure. I am well aware of this. > That sounds like noise at the switching frequency. My guess is that it > means the output capacitor (IIRC the second-largest one in the module) > oin the 5V regualor brick is developing a high ESR. Probably worth > testing/replacing it. That's my thought too. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 12:47:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 18:47:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Jonas" at Aug 5, 11 01:28:39 pm Message-ID: > > > [PCs as terminals] > > >> The big advantage over a conventional terminal > >> was the capability of > >> capturing output to a file or sending a file > > Part of me still craves dedicated terminals > since they're just so reliable, and you can just swap > in another when it breaks. No (or few) stored settings. Or alternaticely, erminals are genrally much easier to repair to compoent level than PCs. > > Incidentally, the first PC I owned was a genuine 5160 PC/XT > > (It still runs, it's in front of me now). > > Nice! There's been a resurgence in appreciation > of the "classics". > MARCH: the NJ Vintage Computer Museum > has a 5100 and 5150 on display! On my desk I haev (all operational) : The hacked 5170 I am typing this on, and which I've described many times before The 5160 I just mentioned with 4 floppy drives, 2 hard drives, MDA and CGA cards, 4 serial ports, 24 line user I/O (8255-based), etc. Not all orignial IBM of course, although much fo the machine, incuding the motherboard and keyboard are. A CoCo 3 (512K, 2 drives, serial port, etc) A PDP8/e with 32K words of real core, EAE boards, RK8e (not connected to anything at the momnet), TU56, PC04 and RX01. I think all of those would count as classic computers. > > > Reminds me of the tremrinal emiulator ROM for th HP9830, > > Sweet! Google found this for pix and desc: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_9800_series_desktop_computers The best place to get information on these machines is http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . Youy cna download a fair amount of docuemtation... > > My high school started everyone with programming BASIC > on the HP 9820A: I find that hard to believe for one good reason. The HP9820 never ran BASIC... The HP9820 was HP's first infix-notation (as opposed to RPN/postfix) calculator and used a language that developed into the 'HPL' of the 9825 etc. The HP9830 was the machine in that family that ran BASIC. In many ways it's the first personal computer, in that it was the first all-in-one machine that you simply put on a desk, plugged into the mains, turned on and started programming in BASIC. You may have guessed I have something of a soft spot for these machines. I own a 9810 (3 level stack RPN), 9820 amd 9830, and a considerable number of the interfaces. One of my long-term goals is to get an HP9880 disk system for the 9830. Things I like about them include : -- They're one of the few bit-serial machines you are likely to find (they're a lot more common than a PDP8/s for example) and that in itself makes them interesting to me -- The CPU is built mostly from TTL (there's no single-chip microprocessor), so you can dive in with the logic analyser. On the other hand, the machines are small enough to be easy to accomodate, unlike, say a rack mounted minicomputer -- They have the legendary HP build quality and though-out design. -- Most faults can be easily fixed. Most of the electronic parts are still easy to obtain -- the only custom ICs are the ROMs. The RAMs (1103 1K*1 DRAMs) are hard to find, though. The displays can fail and are vry hard to get. But the TTL logic for the CPU and memory control is not a problem. Debugging them is not too hard, but you do need a logic analyser. Mechanical problems are normally just decayed rubber parts (card reader rollers, printer platten), they can be replaced without too much work. -- A purely selfish rason. They are HP calculators, at least in name, and are on the fringe of what HPCC (http://www.hpcc.org/) covers. This group is the only place where I get to meet like-minded people, and while I would have problems if I wanted to chat about PDP11s all the time, I can get away with mentionign the HP9830 ;-) > http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp9820.htm > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/hp9820a.html There are also some pictures on the aforemntioned site, and in my flickr accound (tony_duell). The latter contains no pictures of the complete machine, but it does show all the plug-in PCBs, repairing the printr and card reader, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 6 12:58:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 18:58:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power Ripple in DEC BA11-K In-Reply-To: <20110806100347.496eea9b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 6, 11 10:03:47 am Message-ID: > > A logic probe is very useful,but bve warned it doesn't give the full > > story. The prove will tell you if a clock is running, or if a data line > > is stuck high or low, > That is the exact thing I need for simple, basic tests. It is a very useful tool, sure (I use one all the time), provided that (as with all test gear) you realise what its limitations are. > > > but if it shows a signal as changing, it tells you > > nothing abotu the timing of that signal. That;s what you use the 'scope > > of logic analyser for (and yes, I have been cuaght by this...) > Sure. I am well aware of this. So was I, didn't stop me getting caught though... Let me expalin. The machine in question was an HP9820 (as mentioned in my otehr message). Now, with thse machines, I start by checkign the power supplies (all rails fine), then the clock board (both the bit clock and the microcode clock were running), and then I put enough of the machine togethr for it to run (that is all 4 CPU board,s the memory unit and the display board) and see what it's doing. Normally I strt with quick tests to look for 'sillies', if that doesn't find the fualt I usea full-blown logic analyser to trace the CPU microcode and see jsut what it is doing. Anyway, as I mentioned in my previous message, it's bit-serial. There's a 16 bit shift register claled the 'M register' which does a conversion from the serial CPU to the parallel memory address bus. Bits from the CPU are shifted into the MSB end of this register (as you'd expect), and after 16 clocks, there's a new address o nthe address bus. The outputs of the M regiser are brouight out to pins on a test conenctor on top of the memory box backplane, and I ran my logic probe over them. This showed that the top 4 bits were all chaning, the bottl 12 bits were all stuck low. Now, the M register is made up of 4 cascaded 4 bit shift register chips. I decided based on taht that the chip handling bits 11..8 had failed so that its ouptus were all stuck low . Therefroe the lower-order chips were being laded with 0's all the time. So I desoldered the appropriate chip on the memroy address PCB and replaced it. No change. Not just 'still nothing on the display', but the M register outputs on the test connector were still doing the same things -- top 4 changing, bottom 12 all 0's Then I useda logic analyser. I found that yes, the top 4 bits were changing, but the timing was craxzy, they were not just chaning on the correct clock edge. It appeared they were not being latched at all. So in fact the next shift register in the chain -- the one I'd replaced, always had a 0 at its serial input when it was shifting. Hence its ouptus were always 0 Out with the highest shift register chip in the M rwegister, and I replaced it with the one I'd taken out from the next position and which I guessed was good. It was. This time I got the correct display. If I'd used a logic anaylser at the start I'd have found the fault first time. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 6 14:39:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Aug 2011 12:39:01 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: from "Jeff Jonas" at Aug 5, 11 01:28:39 pm, Message-ID: <4E3D35E5.3999.A1A9AE@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2011 at 18:47, Tony Duell wrote: > > Part of me still craves dedicated terminals > > since they're just so reliable, and you can just swap > > in another when it breaks. No (or few) stored settings. > > Or alternaticely, erminals are genrally much easier to repair to > compoent level than PCs. I'm not following that logic. Short of some sort of storage (usually floppy disk and controller), what's the big difference between most microprocessor-based terminals and personal computers? Many 8-bit personal computers (e.g. Televideo, Intertec, etc.) are scarcely more than a terminal with a disk drive or two added. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 6 17:29:30 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:29:30 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals Message-ID: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> The two LA50 manuals listed on MANX don't seem to be accessible, and a web search for them does not seem to turn up anything, does anyone have EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001? By the way, anyone know of any UK sources of tractor feed paper that would suit an LA50? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 6 17:40:55 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:40:55 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001d01cc5489$e9294330$bb7bc990$@ntlworld.com> In the meantime, if there are no manuals around or readily available, I am trying to remove the casing to get a look at the power supply to make sure it looks OK, before connecting it to some power. But I can't get the casing off because the knob on the side that is used to turn the roller is in the way and I can't see how to remove it. If someone can tell me how to remove the knob that would be great. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 06 August 2011 23:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: LA50 Manuals > > The two LA50 manuals listed on MANX don't seem to be accessible, and a web > search for them does not seem to turn up anything, does anyone have > EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001? > > By the way, anyone know of any UK sources of tractor feed paper that would > suit an LA50? > > Thanks > > Rob From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 00:36:41 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 06:36:41 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I have EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001 on microfiche also the user and programming manuals (user also in paper form so easily scannable) Easiest way to contact me today will be on IRC #classiccmp my nick is archivist I can have them in the fiche reader Will be out till 7pm as Im volunteering at http://www.middleton-leawood.org.uk/leawood/images/outside/index.html Dave Caroline On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The two LA50 manuals listed on MANX don't seem to be accessible, and a web > search for them does not seem to turn up anything, does anyone have > EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001? > > By the way, anyone know of any UK sources of tractor feed paper that would > suit an LA50? > > Thanks > > Rob > > From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sat Aug 6 11:25:41 2011 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 10:25:41 -0600 Subject: TMA-11/TS03 Message-ID: With the help of various knowledgeable people on this list, it was pointed out that I did not have the connection to the tape drive controller in the correct position. To test the tape drive, I used the programmer's console on my PDP-11/05 to issue a read command to a mounted tape. When I issued a read command by depositing a command into the TMA-11 command register, the tape advanced slightly and then stopped. The 'Bus Grant Late' error was set in the TMA-11 status register. The status register did indicate the controller and tape drive were both ready. No data was read in. The read command was issued while the processor is halted. This particular system did not originally have any external devices hooked up to it. Beginning at the processor, the system has the following components installed: KD11-B PDP-11/05 LS11 line printer card (connects to a Centronics 101A printer) MM11-U 16K x 16 core memory MM11-U 16K x 16 core memory RK11-D RK05 disk controller (See http://www.iamvirtual.ca/collection/systems/minis/PDP11-10/Boards.html for details) The BC11 cable leading to the TMA-11 controller is put on the Unibus out connection at the last slot of the RK11-D controller. Based on previous posts from others, I suspect I don't have the processor grant set up correctly. I am currently reading several different manuals to get a description of how the grant lines should be hooked up. I have read many descriptions of the signalling, but I have not located information on where to use the Grant Continuity cards or making changes to the wire-wrapped bus. In my case, I will need to make changes to the bus, since I do not have any of the Grant Continuity cards ;-) Am I on the right track to assume that the problem is likely to be the processor grant wiring, or should I be looking elsewhere? Many thanks for any pointers! --barrym From jeffj at panix.com Sat Aug 6 15:56:56 2011 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 16:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ST506 app not ST001? Message-ID: My google-fu is not working today. The Seagate ST-506 manual references "application note ST001" for optimized seeking. I can't find it. Does anyone have that app note? Thanks in advance. -- jeffj From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 7 03:27:09 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:27:09 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> Dave, I managed to work out that the knob came off with just a bit more force (I am always worried about breaking things by applying too much force to something that is supposed to be removed in some other way). I was able to see enough of the PSU that it looked safe to try applying power. I know this is still a bit rash, but thankfully the PSU was OK and the printer came up just fine. So for the moment I am happy, but if anyone does have a PDF of those manuals it would be great. Incidentally, a while back you responded to an email about the H7140 PSU from the PDP11/24, for which I think you also have the fiche. I am still interested in a couple of bits of information from the printset for the newer design, would you be able photograph a couple of pages? I am interested in the Input Assembly and the Bias and Interface board. On the latter I have a specific question: My bias and interface board had what looked like a broken track, and it did look broken rather than deliberately cut. Could you tell me if the collector of Q2 (p87 of the older printset on bitsavers) is connected to anything? If so, what is it connected to? Unfortunately I don't have IRC so we'll have to rely on email. I didn't know that Middleton Top was open to the public and steamed. As a teenager I used to hire a bike on the Tissington Trail to go rock climbing at Harborough Rocks (I still climb today). I'll take the family next time it is in steam as today is not likely to be possible. I live in Stockport and guess you don't live too far away from me. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > Sent: 07 August 2011 06:37 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: LA50 Manuals > > I have EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001 on microfiche also the user and > programming manuals (user also in paper form so easily scannable) > > Easiest way to contact me today will be on IRC #classiccmp my nick is archivist I > can have them in the fiche reader Will be out till 7pm as Im volunteering at > http://www.middleton-leawood.org.uk/leawood/images/outside/index.html > > Dave Caroline > > > > On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > The two LA50 manuals listed on MANX don't seem to be accessible, and a > > web search for them does not seem to turn up anything, does anyone > > have > > EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001? > > > > By the way, anyone know of any UK sources of tractor feed paper that > > would suit an LA50? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 03:49:51 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 09:49:51 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Middleton Top is run on compressed air, Im one of the drivers of Leawood. just about to set off. Im still working on getting fiche images later experiments were worse, the quality/rigidity of the equipment has to to be high. The image is too dim currently for manual focus and long exposure, and that makes camera shake due to the stand flexing even worse. I have got a remote shutter release for the camera now and some old microfiche readers to hack and build around/in/on but but the expense is holding me back. Im about 25 miles south of Leawood near Burton Dave On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Dave, > > I managed to work out that the knob came off with just a bit more force (I > am always worried about breaking things by applying too much force to > something that is supposed to be removed in some other way). I was able to > see enough of the PSU that it looked safe to try applying power. I know this > is still a bit rash, but thankfully the PSU was OK and the printer came up > just fine. So for the moment I am happy, but if anyone does have a PDF of > those manuals it would be great. > > Incidentally, a while back you responded to an email about the H7140 PSU > from the PDP11/24, for which I think you also have the fiche. I am still > interested in a couple of bits of information from the printset for the > newer design, would you be able photograph a couple of pages? I am > interested in the Input Assembly and the Bias and Interface board. On the > latter I have a specific question: My bias and interface board had what > looked like a broken track, and it did look broken rather than deliberately > cut. Could you tell me if the collector of Q2 (p87 of the older printset on > bitsavers) is connected to anything? If so, what is it connected to? > > Unfortunately I don't have IRC so we'll have to rely on email. > > I didn't know that Middleton Top was open to the public and steamed. As a > teenager I used to hire a bike on the Tissington Trail to go rock climbing > at Harborough Rocks (I still climb today). I'll take the family next time it > is in steam as today is not likely to be possible. I live in Stockport and > guess you don't live too far away from me. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline >> Sent: 07 August 2011 06:37 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: LA50 Manuals >> >> I have EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001 on microfiche also the user and >> programming manuals (user also in paper form so easily scannable) >> >> Easiest way to contact me today will be on IRC #classiccmp my nick is > archivist I >> can have them in the fiche reader Will be out till 7pm as Im volunteering > at >> http://www.middleton-leawood.org.uk/leawood/images/outside/index.html >> >> Dave Caroline >> >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Rob Jarratt >> wrote: >> > The two LA50 manuals listed on MANX don't seem to be accessible, and a >> > web search for them does not seem to turn up anything, does anyone >> > have >> > EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001? >> > >> > By the way, anyone know of any UK sources of tractor feed paper that >> > would suit an LA50? >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Rob >> > >> > > > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Aug 7 03:57:27 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 10:57:27 +0200 Subject: TMA-11/TS03 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "B M" Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 6:25 PM To: Subject: TMA-11/TS03 > With the help of various knowledgeable people on this list, it was > pointed out that > I did not have the connection to the tape drive controller in the > correct position. > > To test the tape drive, I used the programmer's console on my PDP-11/05 to > issue a read command to a mounted tape. When I issued a read command by > depositing a command into the TMA-11 command register, the tape advanced > slightly and then stopped. The 'Bus Grant Late' error was set in the > TMA-11 > status register. The status register did indicate the controller and tape > drive > were both ready. No data was read in. > > The read command was issued while the processor is halted. I am always careful to give a response, because I am sure there are more knowledgeable people here. True, you can give a command to the TMA-11, like move tape forward, but if you command to read data, to must also actually read data! Otherwise a buffer overflow will occur and then the "late" message will appear. I think ... But as the tape moves a little, it seems that probably nothing died by the wrong connection. Try XXDP at it. ( I have to do that too ... one day). > Based on previous posts from others, I suspect I don't have the processor > grant set up correctly. > > I am currently reading several different manuals to get a description of > how > the grant lines should be hooked up. I have read many descriptions of the > signalling, but I have not located information on where to use the Grant > Continuity cards or making changes to the wire-wrapped bus. In my case, > I will need to make changes to the bus, since I do not have any of the > Grant Continuity cards ;-) > > Am I on the right track to assume that the problem is likely to be > the processor grant wiring, or should I be looking elsewhere? Again, I am not sure, but if you can control the system and access the UNIBUS, I'd say there is no GRANT problem. You can easily check this by sending a character to the XMIT register of the console. Just deposit 066 (whatever) at 777566 and see if a character is printed on the terminal. If so, you know the UNIBUS is OK. Grant cards are small "knockle-busters". They go in position D and connect 4 grant wires. I would not wire-wrap those 8 pins, but find a G727A. I am sure somebody local to you has plenty of them. The NPR Grant module G7273 goes in position C and D. It has the 4 connections as the G727A plus the 'connection for NPR in slot C. Those are also relatively easy to obtain. If you "mess" with UNIBUS systems it is handy to have a few G727A and G7273 lying around. - Henk. > Many thanks for any pointers! > > --barrym From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 7 04:24:26 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:24:26 +0200 Subject: TMA-11/TS03 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110807112426.d57bca79.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 6 Aug 2011 10:25:41 -0600 B M wrote: > I am currently reading several different manuals to get a description > of how the grant lines should be hooked up. This is a good roundup: http://www.retrocmp.com/how-tos/setup-a-pdp-11-unibus-backplane ... especially the NPG jumper hack at the end. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 7 04:34:34 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:34:34 +0200 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110807113434.6941468d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 7 Aug 2011 06:36:41 +0100 Dave Caroline wrote: > Will be out till 7pm as Im volunteering at > http://www.middleton-leawood.org.uk/leawood/images/outside/index.html Thank you for ruining my day. ;-) I planed to work on my PDP-11/34a, now I am into all of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derwent_Valley_Mills And there is this nice video about the Leawood Pumphouse: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHaD4_DGOIc -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 7 05:15:16 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:15:16 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <20110807113434.6941468d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <20110807113434.6941468d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <002501cc54ea$e89c0040$b9d400c0$@ntlworld.com> Well, if you like that sort of thing I can also recommend Papplewick Pumping Station http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_nCk90E_zI, it is quite beautiful and impressive to watch when it is in steam. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jochen Kunz > Sent: 07 August 2011 10:35 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: LA50 Manuals > > On Sun, 7 Aug 2011 06:36:41 +0100 > Dave Caroline wrote: > > > Will be out till 7pm as Im volunteering at > > http://www.middleton-leawood.org.uk/leawood/images/outside/index.html > Thank you for ruining my day. ;-) > I planed to work on my PDP-11/34a, now I am into all of this: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derwent_Valley_Mills > And there is this nice video about the Leawood Pumphouse: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHaD4_DGOIc > -- > > > \end{Jochen} > > \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 7 05:17:41 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 11:17:41 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <002601cc54eb$3f3ea6a0$bdbbf3e0$@ntlworld.com> If you can't take pictures perhaps you could just confirm that question I had on the Bias and Interface Board where I had a broken track? Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > Sent: 07 August 2011 09:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: LA50 Manuals > > Middleton Top is run on compressed air, Im one of the drivers of Leawood. > just about to set off. > > Im still working on getting fiche images later experiments were worse, the > quality/rigidity of the equipment has to to be high. > > The image is too dim currently for manual focus and long exposure, and that > makes camera shake due to the stand flexing even worse. I have got a remote > shutter release for the camera now and some old microfiche readers to hack > and build around/in/on but but the expense is holding me back. > > Im about 25 miles south of Leawood near Burton > > Dave > > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:27 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > Dave, > > > > I managed to work out that the knob came off with just a bit more > > force (I am always worried about breaking things by applying too much > > force to something that is supposed to be removed in some other way). > > I was able to see enough of the PSU that it looked safe to try > > applying power. I know this is still a bit rash, but thankfully the > > PSU was OK and the printer came up just fine. So for the moment I am > > happy, but if anyone does have a PDF of those manuals it would be great. > > > > Incidentally, a while back you responded to an email about the H7140 > > PSU from the PDP11/24, for which I think you also have the fiche. I am > > still interested in a couple of bits of information from the printset > > for the newer design, would you be able photograph a couple of pages? > > I am interested in the Input Assembly and the Bias and Interface > > board. On the latter I have a specific question: My bias and interface > > board had what looked like a broken track, and it did look broken > > rather than deliberately cut. Could you tell me if the collector of Q2 > > (p87 of the older printset on > > bitsavers) is connected to anything? If so, what is it connected to? > > > > Unfortunately I don't have IRC so we'll have to rely on email. > > > > I didn't know that Middleton Top was open to the public and steamed. > > As a teenager I used to hire a bike on the Tissington Trail to go rock > > climbing at Harborough Rocks (I still climb today). I'll take the > > family next time it is in steam as today is not likely to be possible. > > I live in Stockport and guess you don't live too far away from me. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > >> Sent: 07 August 2011 06:37 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: LA50 Manuals > >> > >> I have EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001 on microfiche also the user > >> and programming manuals (user also in paper form so easily scannable) > >> > >> Easiest way to contact me today will be on IRC #classiccmp my nick is > > archivist I > >> can have them in the fiche reader Will be out till 7pm as Im > >> volunteering > > at > >> http://www.middleton- > leawood.org.uk/leawood/images/outside/index.html > >> > >> Dave Caroline > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 11:29 PM, Rob Jarratt > >> > >> wrote: > >> > The two LA50 manuals listed on MANX don't seem to be accessible, > >> > and a web search for them does not seem to turn up anything, does > >> > anyone have > >> > EK-OLA50-IP-003 or EK-OLA50-TM-001? > >> > > >> > By the way, anyone know of any UK sources of tractor feed paper > >> > that would suit an LA50? > >> > > >> > Thanks > >> > > >> > Rob > >> > > >> > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 7 12:06:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:06:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: TMA-11/TS03 In-Reply-To: from "B M" at Aug 6, 11 10:25:41 am Message-ID: > To test the tape drive, I used the programmer's console on my PDP-11/05 to > issue a read command to a mounted tape. When I issued a read command by > depositing a command into the TMA-11 command register, the tape advanced > slightly and then stopped. The 'Bus Grant Late' error was set in the TMA-11 > status register. The status register did indicate the controller and tape drive > were both ready. No data was read in. Were you toggling in commands on the front panel with the CPU halted? I seem to remmber that some PDP11s will not handle bus requrests / NPRs if the processor isn't running, and thus if you try to operate such a peripheral in this wa, you will get a 'late grant' problem. It's better to enter a short program from the panel and run that. All the program needs to do is deposit the correct device command word in the right I/O location (you can set up all the other values -- the address, word count, etc -- from the panel) and loop either until the device indicates the command has completed, or just loop forever, and you can halt the program after a suitable time and examine device registers, memory ,etc. > > The read command was issued while the processor is halted. > > This particular system did not originally have any external devices hooked up > to it. > > Beginning at the processor, the system has the following components installed: > KD11-B PDP-11/05 > LS11 line printer card (connects to a Centronics 101A printer) > MM11-U 16K x 16 core memory > MM11-U 16K x 16 core memory > RK11-D RK05 disk controller > (See http://www.iamvirtual.ca/collection/systems/minis/PDP11-10/Boards.html > for details) > > The BC11 cable leading to the TMA-11 controller is put on the Unibus > out connection > at the last slot of the RK11-D controller. > > Based on previous posts from others, I suspect I don't have the processor grant > set up correctly. My first question is 'Does the RK05 work correctly?'. The RK11-D is an NPR device too, so if its's working, grants must be getting as far as that. If the're then not getting to the tape controller, there must be a fault either in the cable between those devices, or a fault in the RK11-D itself (I have had a device that failed to pass on a grant, I think one of the bus driver ICs had fialed. It was an easy fix, anyway...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 7 12:11:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:11:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E3D35E5.3999.A1A9AE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 6, 11 12:39:01 pm Message-ID: > > On 6 Aug 2011 at 18:47, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Part of me still craves dedicated terminals > > > since they're just so reliable, and you can just swap > > > in another when it breaks. No (or few) stored settings. > > > > Or alternaticely, erminals are genrally much easier to repair to > > compoent level than PCs. > > I'm not following that logic. Short of some sort of storage (usually > floppy disk and controller), what's the big difference between most > microprocessor-based terminals and personal computers? I was using 'PC' to mean a modern-ish machine here... In any case, not all terminals are microprocessor-controlled. Unlike modern PCs, most video terminals are not just one ASIC after anohter. Yes, a custom video controller chip is not uncommon, but most of the time that's the only unrecognisable part. And a fair number of terminals are all standard ICs. BGA ICs are not common in video terminals, and it's much more likely you';ll find proper service documentatiuon for a video terminal than for a PC. > > Many 8-bit personal computers (e.g. Televideo, Intertec, etc.) are > scarcely more than a terminal with a disk drive or two added. Some CP/M machines were genuinely a terminal and a computer system in the smae box. The H88/H89/Z90 (etc) springs to mind, they're an H19 terminal with a CP/M machine packied into the case, communicating serially. The HP120 and HP125 machines are also really a seaprate terminal (Z80-based) and CP/M computer (also Z80-based), communciting via a parallel interface. Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would you rather fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? -tony From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 13:48:19 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 13:48:19 -0500 Subject: TMA-11/TS03 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think you said the system worked before installing the TM11. The grants and everything should still be fine. If you only extended the Unibus with the TM11, you shouldn't need to change anything or add grant cards. There were 4 or 5 11/05 backplanes. I thinK the Unibus troubleshooting guide shows some of them. I assume your memory is in the cpu backplane, and that you only have the the cpu backplane and the RK11-D backplane. Does the RK05 still work? If in doubt about the BC11A going to the TM11, you can swap it out with the one going to the RK05 and see what happens. Paul On Sat, Aug 6, 2011 at 11:25 AM, B M wrote: > With the help of various knowledgeable people on this list, it was > pointed out that > I did not have the connection to the tape drive controller in the > correct position. > > To test the tape drive, I used the programmer's console on my PDP-11/05 to > issue a read command to a mounted tape. ?When I issued a read command by > depositing a command into the TMA-11 command register, the tape advanced > slightly and then stopped. The 'Bus Grant Late' error was set in the TMA-11 > status register. ?The status register did indicate the controller and tape drive > were both ready. No data was read in. > > The read command was issued while the processor is halted. > > This particular system did not originally have any external devices hooked up > to it. > > Beginning at the processor, the system has the following components installed: > ? ? KD11-B ? ? ?PDP-11/05 > ? ? LS11 ? ? ? ? ?line printer card (connects to a Centronics 101A printer) > ? ? MM11-U ? ? 16K x 16 core memory > ? ? MM11-U ? ? 16K x 16 core memory > ? ? RK11-D ? ? ? RK05 disk controller > (See http://www.iamvirtual.ca/collection/systems/minis/PDP11-10/Boards.html > for details) > > The BC11 cable leading to the TMA-11 controller is put on the Unibus > out connection > at the last slot of the RK11-D controller. > > Based on previous posts from others, I suspect I don't have the processor grant > set up correctly. > > I am currently reading several different manuals to get a description of how the > grant lines should be hooked up. ?I have read many descriptions of the > signalling, > but I have not located information on where to use the Grant Continuity cards > or making changes to the wire-wrapped bus. ?In my case, I will need to make > changes to the bus, since I do not have any of the Grant Continuity cards ;-) > > Am I on the right track to assume that the problem ?is likely to be > the processor > grant wiring, or should I be looking elsewhere? > > Many thanks for any pointers! > > --barrym > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 7 14:14:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 12:14:02 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E3D35E5.3999.A1A9AE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 6, 11 12:39:01 pm, Message-ID: <4E3E818A.17165.CBD94D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2011 at 18:11, Tony Duell wrote: > In any case, not all terminals are microprocessor-controlled. I've owned a couple of those, and also a couple of 8008-based ones with 1702 EPROMs, shift-register memory... > Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would you > rather fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? Oh, by far, the Wintel PC. You either replace the motherboard or the power supply. There just isn't that much more to work on--and nothing that warrants taking the time to bother working at the chip level--if your time means anything to you. (ducking the flames) But it really is true. Even with the issue of terminals, a modern terminal would require what, less than 5 ICs, including RS-232 level translation and run from a wall wart? That terminal using the Parallax Propeller project springs to mind as a "modern" terminal--and it's at least a decade behind the "bleeding edge". Of course, a true "modern" terminal wouldn't use RS-232, either. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 7 14:49:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 20:49:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E3E818A.17165.CBD94D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 7, 11 12:14:02 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 Aug 2011 at 18:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > In any case, not all terminals are microprocessor-controlled. > > I've owned a couple of those, and also a couple of 8008-based ones > with 1702 EPROMs, shift-register memory... I still have an duse several non-microprocessor based terminals. Those I can understnad how to repair//// > > > Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would you > > rather fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? > > Oh, by far, the Wintel PC. You either replace the motherboard or the > power supply. There just isn't that much more to work on--and And I prefer to know why I am replacing soemthing before I replace it... But we've had this argument before. > nothing that warrants taking the time to bother working at the chip > level--if your time means anything to you. It doesn't. Since nobody will pay me for my time, my time is by defintion worthless. [...] > Of course, a true "modern" terminal wouldn't use RS-232, either. That surely depends on what you want to link it to. A terminal to use as, say, a PDP11 console, ahs to have either a 20mA loop or an RS232 interface, becuase that's what it has to connect to. And fortunately this is classiccmp, so we can tale about real VT100s, etc... -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 7 15:07:31 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:07:31 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E3D35E5.3999.A1A9AE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 6, 11 12:39:01 pm Message-ID: <004b01cc553d$a559bef0$f00d3cd0$@ntlworld.com> > Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would you rather > fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? > Answer: A modern Wintel PC: I can just go to one of any number of shops and buy a replacement part :-) But there again, I don't have a VT100 (yet) :-( Regards Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Aug 7 16:13:26 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 22:13:26 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <004b01cc553d$a559bef0$f00d3cd0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <59DF5FA87A0B4DA5A87C650679857833@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt quoted and wrote: > > > Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would you > > rather fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? > > > > Answer: A modern Wintel PC: I can just go to one of any > number of shops and buy a replacement part :-) I think you may have missed the word "fix" in there. You may consider the modern wintel box to be a disposable tool, but Tony doesn't. There's not much merit in arguing either way: the vast majority of the population would chuck both a VT100 and a wintel box in the bin when they stop working. (Since "working" to them probably means "reads email, surfs the web and plays games", the VT100 will hit the bin first and they'll think you're *both* mad :-)). Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 7 16:37:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 14:37:54 -0700 Subject: Wintel box vs. terminal WAS: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <59DF5FA87A0B4DA5A87C650679857833@ANTONIOPC> References: <004b01cc553d$a559bef0$f00d3cd0$@ntlworld.com>, <59DF5FA87A0B4DA5A87C650679857833@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4E3EA342.26001.14F8FBF@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2011 at 22:13, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Rob Jarratt quoted and wrote: > > > > > Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would > > > you rather fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? > > > > > > > Answer: A modern Wintel PC: I can just go to one of any > > number of shops and buy a replacement part :-) > I think you may have missed the word "fix" in there. You may consider > the modern wintel box to be a disposable tool, but Tony doesn't. Well, most modern Wintel boxes use fine-pitch BGA packages. While it's possible to remove and re-ball such stuff, it's not something I care to waste my time doing. Slightly vintage Wintel boxes can be had for the asking and it really makes no sense to run a multi-core speed demon to emulate a terminal. The last time I needed a standalone text terminal, I just built one from a uC, a MAX232, a wall wart and a PC keyboard. I could have put the entire thing but for the monitor in the keyboard housing. Complete terminal makings can be found in any moderately-well-stocked hellbox. --Chuck From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 17:47:00 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 15:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: First IBM PC Commercial Message-ID: <1312757220.35621.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Anyone know where I can find the first IBM PC commercial? It's not on youtube and they have one on Gametrailers.. I'm looking for it to post on my blog for the 30th anniversary of the PC From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 17:57:20 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 18:57:20 -0400 Subject: First IBM PC Commercial In-Reply-To: <1312757220.35621.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1312757220.35621.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Anyone know where I can find the first IBM PC commercial? > It's not on youtube and they have one on Gametrailers.. > I'm looking for it to post on my blog for the 30th anniversary of the PC I think it used to be on youtube - maybe it is gone now, or maybe it is really buried. There are a lot of old IBM commercials there, but many take time to find. -- Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 7 18:16:13 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 00:16:13 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <59DF5FA87A0B4DA5A87C650679857833@ANTONIOPC> References: <004b01cc553d$a559bef0$f00d3cd0$@ntlworld.com> <59DF5FA87A0B4DA5A87C650679857833@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <006501cc5558$044f4a50$0ceddef0$@ntlworld.com> I do hope everyone saw the smiley, it was intended to be a little tongue-in-cheek. I realise that Tony wishes to understand how a machine works and repair the least possible. I like that principle too, especially when it comes to vintage equipment. I also understand the argument about what you consider a valuable use of your time. In the end it just boils down to your personal preference in each situation, so I am not going to argue one way or the other. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 07 August 2011 22:13 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > > Rob Jarratt quoted and wrote: > > > > > Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would you > > > rather fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? > > > > > > > Answer: A modern Wintel PC: I can just go to one of any number of > > shops and buy a replacement part :-) > > I think you may have missed the word "fix" in there. You may consider the > modern wintel box to be a disposable tool, but Tony doesn't. There's not > much merit in arguing either way: the vast majority of the population would > chuck both a VT100 and a wintel box in the bin when they stop working. > (Since "working" to them probably means "reads email, surfs the web and > plays games", the VT100 will hit the bin first and they'll think you're *both* > mad :-)). > > Antonio From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sun Aug 7 18:37:53 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 15:37:53 -0800 Subject: Wintel box vs. terminal WAS: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E3EA342.26001.14F8FBF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004b01cc553d$a559bef0$f00d3cd0$@ntlworld.com> <59df5fa87a0b4da5a87c650679857833@antoniopc> Message-ID: <32F1B593D29.000003E0n0body.h0me@inbox.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cclist at sydex.com > Sent: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 14:37:54 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Wintel box vs. terminal WAS: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > > On 7 Aug 2011 at 22:13, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > >> Rob Jarratt quoted and wrote: >>> >>>> Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would >>>> you rather fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? >>>> >>> >>> Answer: A modern Wintel PC: I can just go to one of any >>> number of shops and buy a replacement part :-) > >> I think you may have missed the word "fix" in there. You may consider >> the modern wintel box to be a disposable tool, but Tony doesn't. > > Well, most modern Wintel boxes use fine-pitch BGA packages. While > it's possible to remove and re-ball such stuff, it's not something I > care to waste my time doing. > > Slightly vintage Wintel boxes can be had for the asking and it really > makes no sense to run a multi-core speed demon to emulate a terminal. > > The last time I needed a standalone text terminal, I just built one > from a uC, a MAX232, a wall wart and a PC keyboard. I could have > put the entire thing but for the monitor in the keyboard housing. > Complete terminal makings can be found in any moderately-well-stocked > hellbox. > > --Chuck While all of these things may be true, I really like the idea of using purpose-built tools for the task at hand. In this case, I can think of a couple of reasons why I would prefer a dedicated terminal over a PeeCee: 1. Typically very nice font rendering on analog CRT's made for use with the terminal. I'm particularly fond of AMBER screen phosphors. 2. Easily adjustable contrast/brightness (two knobs, usually). 3. I don't ever recall a terminal crashing 4. No waiting for boot-up for $OS_DEJURE 5. Dedicated terminals are usually smaller, lighter, easier to handle physically, unless you're considering 'thin-client' PeeCees of course. The dedicated data terminal is a simple machine, to do a simple task, with alot of utility. My favorite being the WY-50, as it emulates many kinds of commonly-used terminals, comes in amber, and overall is easy to use. just my $0.02 ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Aug 7 19:38:31 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 07 Aug 2011 20:38:31 -0400 Subject: Wow! Great OSI collection for someone in MI... Message-ID: <015601cc5563$800c3a30$8024ae90$@sudbrink@verizon.net> I wish I was in or going to Michigan... Ebay lot # 310337111857 From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 22:00:56 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 22:00:56 -0500 Subject: Plessey PMDC/11 for RK05's? Message-ID: I've been digging looking for things, and came across this unit. It looks like a RK11-D, 4 slot hex backplane with 4 quad boards in it. Any body know for sure? Any body need one? zip 61853, IL. Thanks, Paul From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 22:15:56 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 22:15:56 -0500 Subject: Plessey PMDC/11 for RK05's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: a what? On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I've been digging looking for things, and came across this unit. It > looks like a RK11-D, 4 slot hex backplane with 4 quad boards in it. > Any body know for sure? Any body need one? zip 61853, IL. > > Thanks, Paul > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 22:30:18 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 22:30:18 -0500 Subject: Plessey PMDC/11 for RK05's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A Plessey Memories Inc. PMDC/11 On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:15 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > a what? > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >> I've been digging looking for things, and came across this unit. It >> looks like a RK11-D, 4 slot ?hex backplane with 4 quad boards in it. >> Any body know for sure? Any body need one? zip 61853, IL. >> >> Thanks, Paul >> > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 22:37:39 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 22:37:39 -0500 Subject: OFF TOPIC!! Anyone need any microscopes? Message-ID: I collect, among a lot of other things, old microscopes, and almost anything Zeiss. I have a dozen or so of various companies and styles, including stereo zooms, available if anyone is interested. zip 61853, IL Thanks, Paul From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 7 22:47:14 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 20:47:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: First IBM PC Commercial In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1312775234.71436.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have been trying you tube doing searches like "PC Commercial", "IBM 5150", "IBM Chaplin".. They have the later ones, but not the first. --- On Sun, 8/7/11, William Donzelli wrote: I think it used to be on youtube - maybe it is gone now, or maybe it is really buried. There are a lot of old IBM commercials there, but many take time to find. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 22:58:05 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 22:58:05 -0500 Subject: Plessey PMDC/11 for RK05's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: basicaly something that uses the pdp8 backplane? On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > A Plessey Memories Inc. PMDC/11 > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:15 PM, Adrian Stoness > wrote: > > a what? > > > > On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:00 PM, Paul Anderson > wrote: > > > >> I've been digging looking for things, and came across this unit. It > >> looks like a RK11-D, 4 slot hex backplane with 4 quad boards in it. > >> Any body know for sure? Any body need one? zip 61853, IL. > >> > >> Thanks, Paul > >> > > > > From jeffj at panix.com Sun Aug 7 18:57:39 2011 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: replying to ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> Nice! There's been a resurgence in appreciation of the "classics". > The 5160 I just mentioned with 4 floppy drive How did you accomplish that? - a controller that honors all 4 drive selects, not just 2 - primary & secondary disk controller - Compaticard or other disk controller at "non-standard" address & IRQ? My pre-PC systems (mostly Z80 CP/M) all support 4 floppies per the original specs. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, the PC's "cable twist" ruined that, limiting things to 2 floppies and 2 hard drives per controller. Not 'till SATA have we been able to un-do that mistake :-( > 2 hard drives Awww, come on, you can do better than that :-) I have a 80386 DOS system running MFM, ATAPI/IDE and SCSI. The "4drives" shareware was the first DOS support I found for the hard drive controller at alternate addresses & IRQ. > MDA and CGA cards, Dual display? What programs support that? > 4 serial ports, 24 line user I/O (8255-based), etc. > Not all original IBM of course Ah yes, that reminds me of the excitement of reading Computer Shopper and all the computer shows, always with new upgrades: higher res graphics, more memory, etc. Every month or so, ALL the vendors had a different brand of add-on card. For a while it was a box with a king playing card on the cover. Then Pine Technologies. Then something else. For those of us USING the stuff at the time, we were always upgrading it piece by piece. That's why it's so hard to find one with all original parts. > A PDP8/e with 32K words of real core Do the boards have clear plastic for you to see the cores? That's such a treat: true non-volatile memory! >> My high school started everyone with programming BASIC >> on the HP 9820A: > I find that hard to believe for one good reason. > The HP9820 never ran BASIC... You got me there. It was kinda almost similar to BASIC. It's so close that I totally forgot when I converted to BASIC. Since BASIC has so many "dialects", I guess that fuzzed my memory a little. Thanks for the clarification. > The HP9820 was HP's first infix-notation > (as opposed to RPN/postfix) calculator > and used a language that developed into the 'HPL' of the 9825 etc. It was such a pleasure using an instant response interactive machine! No waiting for carriage-return for the interpreter to handle the line or waiting for the compiler for an all-or-nothing result. > You may have guessed I have something of a soft spot for these machines. As an undergrad, I never had the budget for a HP calculator nor access to a HP desktop like my high school's. Somehow a TI-55 sufficed for me as an EE undergrad. Looking back, I just can't see how. It's *SO LAME*. I got a HP-28C when it was new and it's still my primary calculator. I really need that 4 line display to use RPN so I can see the stack. -- jeffj From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Aug 7 20:00:04 2011 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:00:04 -0600 Subject: TMA-11/TS03 Message-ID: I believe you are correct Tony. It looks like dropping values into the TMA-11 registers while the processor is halted does not work. I had forgotten that I have a 873-YA bootstrap loader installed which can boot from a TM11 tape drive. I located a backup tape that was built using Rollin. I booted from the tape and I did get the Rollin command prompt on the console. So it looks like the tape drive is in fact working. You are also correct that if the RK05 works (it does), the grant signals should be good up to the RK11 controller. My PDP-11/05 system with 32kW (28kW usable) now has a working RK05 drive with RT-11 v2C with MUBASIC and a TMA-11/TS03 tape drive. Once I hook up my ASR33 teletype, I will have an authentic 1972-ish system. Later, I will begin work on my PDP-11/20. That system was installed in Sept/1970. Many thanks to all who helped sort out my issues. --barrym Sun Aug 7 12:06:09 CDT 2011 Tony Duell wrote: >> To test the tape drive, I used the programmer's console on my PDP-11/05 to >> issue a read command to a mounted tape. When I issued a read command by >> depositing a command into the TMA-11 command register, the tape advanced >> slightly and then stopped. The 'Bus Grant Late' error was set in the TMA-11 >> status register. The status register did indicate the controller and tape drive >> were both ready. No data was read in. > Were you toggling in commands on the front panel with the CPU halted? I > seem to remmber that some PDP11s will not handle bus requrests / NPRs if > the processor isn't running, and thus if you try to operate such a > peripheral in this wa, you will get a 'late grant' problem. It's better > to enter a short program from the panel and run that. All the program > needs to do is deposit the correct device command word in the right I/O > location (you can set up all the other values -- the address, word count, > etc -- from the panel) and loop either until the device indicates the > command has completed, or just loop forever, and you can halt the program > after a suitable time and examine device registers, memory ,etc. >> The read command was issued while the processor is halted. >> >> This particular system did not originally have any external devices hooked up >> to it. >> >> Beginning at the processor, the system has the following components installed: >> KD11-B PDP-11/05 >> LS11 line printer card (connects to a Centronics 101A printer) >> MM11-U 16K x 16 core memory >> MM11-U 16K x 16 core memory >> RK11-D RK05 disk controller >> (See http://www.iamvirtual.ca/collection/systems/minis/PDP11-10/Boards.html >> for details) >> >> The BC11 cable leading to the TMA-11 controller is put on the Unibus >> out connection >> at the last slot of the RK11-D controller. >> >> Based on previous posts from others, I suspect I don't have the processor grant >> set up correctly. > My first question is 'Does the RK05 work correctly?'. The RK11-D is an > NPR device too, so if its's working, grants must be getting as far as > that. If the're then not getting to the tape controller, there must be a > fault either in the cable between those devices, or a fault in the RK11-D > itself (I have had a device that failed to pass on a grant, I think one > of the bus driver ICs had fialed. It was an easy fix, anyway...) > > -tony From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Aug 8 00:55:02 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 06:55:02 +0100 Subject: Qantel minicomputer available. In-Reply-To: References: <4E37804E.2000809@sbcglobal.net> <4E385260.7010707@machineroom.info> <4E3C6841.6050802@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C9AD5D9A2C5413BA6833F2000F2CB55@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Quantel are local to me here in Newbury UK. They are still very much in business although they don't make the headlines these days. Some years ago I ran a wiring business and Quantel were a major customer. We used to (literally) wire up their prototype boards. We used Kynar wire wrap wire to connect the IC pads. They had elongated pads with extra drilled holes and the wiring went on the component side. Lots and lots of TTL.!! Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: 06 August 2011 00:43 To: cctalk Subject: Re: Qantel minicomputer available. In article <4E3C6841.6050802 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > On 02/08/11 20:39, James Wilson wrote: > > Nice... I was about to respond with information that the father of one > > of my colleagues was head of R&D at Quantel in the early days. Then I > > spotted that there's a Quantel and a Qantel. How confusing is that?! > > The same Quantel that designed (and sold) the Paintbox graphics editing > systems? Quantel made the paintbox. Qantel made a business minicomputer. Definately confusing. I'd love to have paintbox stuff, but I've never seen it anywhere. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 8 01:21:03 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 23:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110807225141.K37093@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 7 Aug 2011, Jeff Jonas wrote: > > The 5160 I just mentioned with 4 floppy drive > How did you accomplish that? > - a controller that honors all 4 drive selects, not just 2 WHICH INCLUDED THE STOCK IBM 5150 FDC. > - primary & secondary disk controller > - Compaticard or other disk controller > at "non-standard" address & IRQ? > My pre-PC systems (mostly Z80 CP/M) > all support 4 floppies per the original specs. > But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, the PC's "cable twist" ruined that, > limiting things to 2 floppies and 2 hard drives per controller. NO. You are thinking of the AT (5170) The 5150 AND the 5160 used a controller card that directly supported 4 floppy drives. (and NO hard disks. THAT was on another card). 2 of the floppies connected to a 34 pin card edge on the FDC board. The other 2 connected to a DC37 connector hanging out the back of the case. With the 5160, there was the addition of a hard^H^H^H^H FIXED disk controller. IBM would not call it a hard disk, because that had negative connotations, particularly with "ease of use". They thought that "FIXED" didn't have negative connotations (except in a veterinary context?) They also called the main circuit board "system" board, rather than "motherboard", s'posedly due to the use of "mother" as a prefix in widely publicized speeches by Black Panthers at Merritt College. The 5160 HD controller (made by Xebec) handled 2 st412 style MFM drives. It was set for 10M drives. That could be changed to 5, 16? and 24? through soldering jumpers in a block in the middle of the board. Further changes could easily be accomplished through editing the ROM, or tellinf the OS to ignore the ROM values in software. What YOU were thinking of was the 5170 controller (WD?) that handled 2 ST412 style MFM drives (one 34pin (2x17) berg and one 20?) and 2 SA450 style floppies (one 34 pin berg). > > MDA and CGA cards, > Dual display? What programs support that? ANYTHING that you write. (debugging mode in XenoCopy often made use of alternate display, and some outputs to a P.O.S.T. card, but MOST of that code was compiled out on release versions. We once tried a release where the HELP screens were ALWAYS activated on alternate display, but the users that NEEDED help wanted handholding instead.) Early Windoze development software supported two videos. I think that some early (pre-megapixel) CAD used both IBM displays. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 8 01:31:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 23:31:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110807225141.K37093@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110807225141.K37093@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110807233053.W37093@shell.lmi.net> > My pre-PC systems (mostly Z80 CP/M) > all support 4 floppies per the original specs. which pin was the "official" drive select for the fourth floppy drive? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Aug 8 03:12:52 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 10:12:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Plessey PMDC/11 for RK05's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > basicaly something that uses the pdp8 backplane? ??? PMDC/11 == Plessey Memories Disk Controller for PDP-11. It's a clone of a RK11-D, you can even swap boards between a PMDC/11 and a RK11-D (I've already successully tested a RK11 boardset in a Plessey backplane and vv.). Christian From trash80 at internode.on.net Mon Aug 8 04:45:09 2011 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 19:45:09 +1000 Subject: First IBM PC Commercial In-Reply-To: <1312757220.35621.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1312757220.35621.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004a01cc55af$dd6eb6c0$984c2440$@on.net> Have you tried IBM's site - they used to have a history section. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Liendo Sent: Monday, 8 August 2011 08:47 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: First IBM PC Commercial Anyone know where I can find the first IBM PC commercial? It's not on youtube and they have one on Gametrailers.. I'm looking for it to post on my blog for the 30th anniversary of the PC From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 05:39:14 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 11:39:14 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > Incidentally, a while back you responded to an email about the H7140 PSU > from the PDP11/24, for which I think you also have the fiche. I am still > interested in a couple of bits of information from the printset for the > newer design, would you be able photograph a couple of pages? I am > interested in the Input Assembly and the Bias and Interface board. On the > latter I have a specific question: My bias and interface board had what > looked like a broken track, and it did look broken rather than deliberately > cut. Could you tell me if the collector of Q2 (p87 of the older printset on > bitsavers) is connected to anything? If so, what is it connected to? Been trawling the fiche and net while I have the IPB docs for the H7140 I dont seem to have the technical manual with the circuit so cannot give any circuit details, the H7140 is not mentioned in the index part only the older docs on bitsavers seem to cover it so after some digging I only find EK-BA11A-TM-003 that points to MP00832 http://manx.archivist.info/publication.php?search=00832&company=1&id=6202 gives http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/PDP-11-44/BA11-A%20FMPS%20MP00832.tif and the illustrated parts EK-H7140-IP which I have on fiche does not seem well documented > > Unfortunately I don't have IRC so we'll have to rely on email. you have internet! therefore you have irc, just install xchat (linux) ychat (windaz) Dave Caroline From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Aug 8 09:19:00 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:19:00 +0100 Subject: Manx database In-Reply-To: <001d01cc5489$e9294330$bb7bc990$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <2E1580E71A0A4731880A3C501212F06B@ANTONIOPC> I'm currently building a list of the manuals that I have (owned, scanned, on fiche etc.). As part of that I want to build a list of DEC-documents-that-are-known-to-exist. I have the 159MiB SQL dump of Manx as it was in 2010. It looks like it should be easy enough to separate out part-number and title fields from PUBHISTORY entries but is there any other useful information in there that I'm missing (e.g. web location of a scanned copy?). Has anyone worked out what all the fields are (to save me grubbing around, re-inventing the wheel?). Thanks Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 8 10:21:24 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 09:21:24 -0600 Subject: Manx database In-Reply-To: <2E1580E71A0A4731880A3C501212F06B@ANTONIOPC> References: <2E1580E71A0A4731880A3C501212F06B@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: In article <2E1580E71A0A4731880A3C501212F06B at ANTONIOPC>, writes: > Has anyone worked out what all the fields are (to save me grubbing > around, re-inventing the wheel?). I re-implemented manx at -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 11:15:31 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 11:15:31 -0500 Subject: Plessey PMDC/11 for RK05's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's what I thought, But I wasn't 100% certain. Thanks for the confirmation Christian. Paul On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 3:12 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 7 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >> basicaly something that uses the pdp8 ?backplane? > > ??? > PMDC/11 == Plessey Memories Disk Controller for PDP-11. > It's a clone of a RK11-D, you can even swap boards between a PMDC/11 and a > RK11-D (I've already successully tested a RK11 boardset in a Plessey > backplane and vv.). > > Christian > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 11:22:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 09:22:26 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4E3FAAD2.31793.45D9E5@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2011 at 19:57, Jeff Jonas wrote: > My pre-PC systems (mostly Z80 CP/M) > all support 4 floppies per the original specs. > But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, the PC's "cable twist" ruined that, > limiting things to 2 floppies and 2 hard drives per controller. > Not 'till SATA have we been able to un-do that mistake :-( The 5150 and 5160 both supported 4 floppy drives with the original controller--what do you think the DC37 on the bracket of the controller board was for? As both machines shipped with full-height 5.25" drives, there wasn't room for 4 drives in the primary box, so the added ones were external. I know of lots of 8-bit CP/M boxes with the same arrangement. The cable "twist" was a very clever (but not original) solution to a thorny problem of how one controlled the spindle motors on two drives when there is only one motor control line. The fact that one could also set all floppies to the second drive select was a bonus. I have Ultrastor controllers that use two unassigned lines in the floppy cable to support a third drive on the cable. And a few DTC controllers could be jumpered to allow for a 4-drive "flat" cable at the expense of having all drive motors come on at the same time. > The "4drives" shareware was the first DOS support I found > for the hard drive controller at alternate addresses & IRQ. You've led a sheltered life. All of my disk products allowed for configuration of port, IRQ and DMA channel. > Dual display? What programs support that? The do exist, in the professional software market. > Do the boards have clear plastic for you to see the cores? > That's such a treat: true non-volatile memory! True non-volatile memory is punched cards--until the termites and mice get to them. TI is currently shipping its MSP430 uC in a version that uses FRAM for memory. Since it's a von Neumann (unified address space), provessor, you can execute code out of FRAM. There's also MRAM, but I don't know if that's being incorporated into any uC designs. > As an undergrad, I never had the budget for a HP calculator > nor access to a HP desktop like my high school's. > Somehow a TI-55 sufficed for me as an EE undergrad. > Looking back, I just can't see how. It's *SO LAME*. As undergrads, many of us had access to a slide rule and the "rubber" book. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 11:24:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 09:24:03 -0700 Subject: OFF TOPIC!! Anyone need any microscopes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E3FAB33.8759.4757CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2011 at 22:37, Paul Anderson wrote: > I collect, among a lot of other things, old microscopes, and almost > anything Zeiss. I have a dozen or so of various companies and styles, > including stereo zooms, available if anyone is interested. zip 61853, > IL East or West German Zeiss? Do you have a Zeiss tuba? --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 11:40:04 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 11:40:04 -0500 Subject: OFF TOPIC!! Anyone need any microscopes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry, please feel free to reply off list. On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I collect, among a lot of other things, old microscopes, and almost > anything Zeiss. I have a dozen or so of various companies and styles, > including stereo zooms, available if anyone is interested. zip 61853, > IL > > Thanks, Paul > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 12:30:06 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 12:30:06 -0500 Subject: Plessey PMDC/11 for RK05's? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: o From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Aug 8 12:30:00 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 19:30:00 +0200 Subject: PDP-12 flip chip layouts Message-ID: <4E401D18.5040306@update.uu.se> Hi My friends and I are restoring a PDP-12. It is in quite good condition but we are hunting down some errors in the CPU. We have engineering drawings but we would like to manufacture a new flip chip, M161 to be specific, That would be simpler and more "authentic" if there was layouts available. Was there ever layouts published? Or has somebody taken it upon the to scan circuitboards? Kind Regards, Pontus. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 12:40:57 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 13:40:57 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > My pre-PC systems (mostly Z80 CP/M) > all support 4 floppies per the original specs. > But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, the PC's "cable twist" ruined that, > limiting things to 2 floppies and 2 hard drives per controller. Who ever used more than 2 floppies on a PC anyway? Or more than 2 hard disks (back then, before PC based servers)? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 12:48:55 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 13:48:55 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 flip chip layouts In-Reply-To: <4E401D18.5040306@update.uu.se> References: <4E401D18.5040306@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > My friends and I are restoring a PDP-12. It is in quite good condition but > we are hunting down some errors in the CPU. We have engineering drawings but > we would like to manufacture a new flip chip, M161 to be specific, That > would be simpler and more "authentic" if there was layouts available. > > Was there ever layouts published? Or has somebody taken it upon the to scan > circuitboards? Or you could just find and purchase an M161, and save a lot of time and bother. They pop up on Ebay every so often. -- Will From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Aug 8 13:01:58 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 20:01:58 +0200 Subject: PDP-12 flip chip layouts In-Reply-To: References: <4E401D18.5040306@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4E402496.8090900@update.uu.se> 2011-08-08 19:48, William Donzelli skrev: > Or you could just find and purchase an M161, and save a lot of time > and bother. They pop up on Ebay every so often. Most certainly, but then we would miss out on the joy of etching a circuit board :) Regards, Pontus. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 8 13:06:10 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 11:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110808104907.O77207@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > Who ever used more than 2 floppies on a PC anyway? Or more than 2 hard > disks (back then, before PC based servers)? 2 360K 5.25" 720K (96tpi) 5.25" ("quad") micropolis 100tpi 3" 3.25" 2 720K 3.5", REPLACED with 2 1.4M 3.5" 2 1.2M 5.25" Epson 67.5 TPI 3.5" 8" (Flagstaff, Vista, Maynard, etc.) 2.8M (I used MicroSoulutions "Backpack" parallel port) floptical (SCSI) LS120 ZIP (and also a few obscure others) MOST people could combine the 720K and the 1.2M 5.25" (such as Teac 55GF), but sometimes it just made more sense to have the individual models. And SOME people didn't need all of those types. Using MORE THAN four drives was awkward (cabling switches, etc.), so "multitasking" meant turning on numerous machines as part of the normal "boot" process. LOTS of power strips. I had most of the prototype external cases and power supplies from Elcompco. Stock power supply was not happy trying to power 2 4096s, so some machines had extra power supplies. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 13:22:05 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 14:22:05 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110808104907.O77207@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110808104907.O77207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > 2 360K 5.25" > 720K (96tpi) 5.25" ("quad") > micropolis 100tpi > 3" > 3.25" > 2 720K 3.5", REPLACED with 2 1.4M 3.5" > 2 1.2M 5.25" > Epson 67.5 TPI 3.5" > > 8" ?(Flagstaff, Vista, Maynard, etc.) > 2.8M ? (I used MicroSoulutions "Backpack" parallel port) > floptical ?(SCSI) > LS120 > ZIP > (and also a few obscure others) During the 5150/5160 era? The time frame the PC design team was planning for? Think realistically, please. Not a retrocomputing wet dream. Even in the 386 era, BY FAR most machines had only two floppies and one hard disk. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 13:30:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 19:30:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <006501cc5558$044f4a50$0ceddef0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 8, 11 00:16:13 am Message-ID: > I realise that Tony wishes to understand how a machine works and repair the > least possible. I like that principle too, especially when it comes to I find that the only way to be sure I have cured the fualt is to know what the fault was. Replaicng parts until the fualt seems to go away is very unsatisfactory (particularly with intermittent faults), you might well have distrubed a bad connection when replacing some other part, for example. > vintage equipment. I also understand the argument about what you consider a I have to say that you were very much 'thrown in the deep end' by having an H7140 PSU as one of your first repairs. I'd not wish that on anybody :-) With vintage machines, you often hgave to repair to compoent level for the simple reason that you can stil lget the components (even if they are not still being made, there are likely to be NO ones around), but you can't find _known-good_ spare bartds, etc to swap in. I couldn't repair my HP9800s as HP intended (by repacing boards until the machine works) becasue finding a known-good HP9800 board set is imposible. FortunatelyI am not afraid to use a logic anaylser... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 13:24:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 19:24:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <004b01cc553d$a559bef0$f00d3cd0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 7, 11 09:07:31 pm Message-ID: > > > > Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would you rather > > fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? > > > > Answer: A modern Wintel PC: I can just go to one of any number of shops and > buy a replacement part :-) Odd... I've never ben able to find the PC spares that _I_ want in any shop or catalogue :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 14:00:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:00:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wintel box vs. terminal WAS: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <32F1B593D29.000003E0n0body.h0me@inbox.com> from "N0body H0me" at Aug 7, 11 03:37:53 pm Message-ID: > > While all of these things may be true, I really like the idea of using > purpose-built tools for the task at hand. In this case, I can think > of a couple of reasons why I would prefer a dedicated terminal over > a PeeCee: > > 1. Typically very nice font rendering on analog CRT's made for use > with the terminal. I'm particularly fond of AMBER screen phosphors. I think an original IBM MDA card with a good monitor (the original 5151 for example) comes close to this. > 2. Easily adjustable contrast/brightness (two knobs, usually). All my PC monitors have analogue brightness and contrast controls. I don't think I'd even consider a monitor which doesn't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 14:35:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:35:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E3FAAD2.31793.45D9E5@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 8, 11 09:22:26 am Message-ID: > The cable "twist" was a very clever (but not original) solution to a > thorny problem of how one controlled the spindle motors on two drives > when there is only one motor control line. The fact that one could > also set all floppies to the second drive select was a bonus. I always liked the way thatHP did it in the 9836 machines. Those have 2 5.25" floppy drives, permanenytly enabled (MX jumper fitted) amd linked by separate ribbon cables to the controller board. The latter is fitted acrsso the case behind the flopy drives which means the ribbon cable layout is quite tidy. This arrangement means that not only can the motors be controlled separately, but also the write protect lines can be monitored in hardware. Since chanigny a disk will always result in some transitions on the QP line, this is used to provide a 'disk changed' signal. > You've led a sheltered life. All of my disk products allowed for > configuration of port, IRQ and DMA channel. I am pretty use I used 22disk and/or anadisk with the secondard controller in thae 5160 under discussion (this controller goes to a pair of 8" drives) before I started writing my own stuff. > As undergrads, many of us had access to a slide rule and the "rubber" > book. > FWIW, I still do. I would not want to be without a Rubber Bible actually, there's a lot of very useful information in there. OK, mine is now nearly 40 years old, but while the physical constants are now known more accurately, the differences are unlikely to affect anything I am doing :-) As for slide rules, I have several and know how to use them. I was lucky enough to find an Otis King (helical slide rule). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 14:38:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:38:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 8, 11 01:40:57 pm Message-ID: > > > My pre-PC systems (mostly Z80 CP/M) > > all support 4 floppies per the original specs. > > But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, the PC's "cable twist" ruined that, > > limiting things to 2 floppies and 2 hard drives per controller. > > Who ever used more than 2 floppies on a PC anyway? Or more than 2 hard > disks (back then, before PC based servers)? Well, I did, obviously... The reason is that there are totally incompatible disks (you can't put a 3.5" disk in a 5.25" drive or vice versa and get it to work [1]), and having 2 drives of each type is handy for making backups (you do make backups, right...) [1] I put that in because otherwise some smarta**e is going to say that if you fold up a 5.25" disk it'll go in the slot of a 3.5" drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 14:19:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:19:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Jonas" at Aug 7, 11 07:57:39 pm Message-ID: > > replying to ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > >> Nice! There's been a resurgence in appreciation of the "classics". > > > The 5160 I just mentioned with 4 floppy drive > > How did you accomplish that? > - a controller that honors all 4 drive selects, not just 2 > - primary & secondary disk controller > - Compaticard or other disk controller > at "non-standard" address & IRQ? Actually, I forgot about the scond disk controller, which means the thing can actually have 6 floppy drives. However, the last 2 are not accessible from MS-DOs, only from special softwate. As for the 4 normal drives, I have the original IBM controller board. This has an edge conenctor at the front fro a nromal cable (with the 'IBM twist') to connect it to the 2 internal 360K (full height) 5.25" drives. On the rear bracket of that controller is a DC37 connector which takes another cable with an 'IBM twist' to link to 2 exteranal 720K 3.5" drives. [...] > > MDA and CGA cards, > > Dual display? What programs support that? Well, MS-DOS for a start, along with BASIC. And quite a few other things besides. >From what I rememebr, and I am not going to pull the case now, the boards in this machine are : -- A clone XT multi-IO card, modified. This provides 2 of the serial ports, a parallel port, a joystick port, and originally a floppy controller. I replaced the single chip for that with a pin-compatible PC/AT disk controller chip, changed the clock crystal, and modified the address decoding to put it ant another address. This is the 'extra' disk cotnroller that I ahve hooked up to a pair of 8" drives -- A I2C interface (Elektor design), based o nthe PCF8584 chip -- Hard disk controller -- MDA card -- CGA card -- Standard floppy controller -- Dual serial card -- 8255 24 line user port (Maplin kit) Of course I've done the normal modification ot the motherboard to put 640K of RAM on there. > For those of us USING the stuff at the time, > we were always upgrading it piece by piece. > That's why it's so hard to find one with all original parts. I was quite lucky. I managed to find another PC/XT (IBM 5160) which was _all_ original IBM. From what I recall, it has a CGA card, floppy controller, Async serial card, parallel card, one 360K floppy drive and.... the expansion unit contianing 2 hard drives and the controller for them. Oh, and origianl IBM 5153 CGA monitor too. > > > A PDP8/e with 32K words of real core > > Do the boards have clear plastic for you to see the cores? I think so. If not, I've got plenty of other machines where you get to see the cores. > That's such a treat: true non-volatile memory! Indeed... Non volatile, but reading is destructive :-) > > >> My high school started everyone with programming BASIC > >> on the HP 9820A: > > > I find that hard to believe for one good reason. > > The HP9820 never ran BASIC... > > You got me there. > It was kinda almost similar to BASIC. Itwould probably be caleld BASIC these days, becasue so many languages seem to be :-( > > I got a HP-28C when it was new and it's still my primary calculator. I bought the first 28C I saw -- back when it was new, and I was an undergrad at the time. Really cut into my budget. A few yers later, I ordered a 48SX the day it was announced, that machine cured the major problem I had with the 28C, namely no way to back it up (the 48SX hasa serial port, of course). nd then some yeras later I made the big mistake of buying a 49G. That machine was not, IMHO 'of merchantable quality' when I bought it. There were so many bugs in the first few ROM releases (flash upgradable, thankfully). Heck, the version that was in the machine when I bought it would return a dot product when you executed the cross product function. Advertised features simply did not exist in the first few ROM versions. What makes it worse is that I wrote a letter of complaint to HP. They didn't bother to reply. I sent them a further letter, enclosing IRCs. They didn't reply again. And for that reason. while I will happily restore and use classic HP amchines, I will never buy another new product from them. I do not deal with companies who ignore their customers. > I really need that 4 line display to use RPN so I can see the stack. Yes, it is very useful, as is the arbirary size stack of any types of object (the older machines had a 4 level stack of real numbers only). Not many machines allow you to build up a string on the stack, and then execute it as a program. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 14:25:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:25:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110807225141.K37093@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 7, 11 11:21:03 pm Message-ID: > didn't have negative connotations (except in a veterinary context?) They > also called the main circuit board "system" board, rather than > "motherboard", s'posedly due to the use of "mother" as a prefix in widely I've also seen it called the 'planar board'. I am pretty sure the backplane in the expansio box is labeleld 'I/O Planar' or something very similar. > > > What YOU were thinking of was the 5170 controller (WD?) that handled 2 > ST412 style MFM drives (one 34pin (2x17) berg and one 20?) and 2 SA450 That's 1 34 pin (cotnrol cable) and _2_ 20 pin (data cabels from each of 2 drives). Alas the disk cotnroller is one thing that's been changed in the 5170 I am typing this on. I had to use a hacked IDE interface card to get a reasonalbe size hard disk. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 8 14:53:49 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 12:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: <20110808104907.O77207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110808115940.K77207@shell.lmi.net> > > 2 360K 5.25" > > 720K (96tpi) 5.25" ("quad") > > micropolis 100tpi > > 3" > > 3.25" > > 2 720K 3.5", REPLACED with 2 1.4M 3.5" > > 2 1.2M 5.25" > > Epson 67.5 TPI 3.5" > > > > 8" ?(Flagstaff, Vista, Maynard, etc.) > > 2.8M ? (I used MicroSoulutions "Backpack" parallel port) > > floptical ?(SCSI) > > LS120 > > ZIP > > (and also a few obscure others) On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > During the 5150/5160 era? The time frame the PC design team was planning for? YES. ALL of those, with the exception of the 1.2M and the 1.4M, MOST before the 5160 came out, I used on my 5150, which I ordered from IBM in 1981 with 16K of RAM. In a separate order at the same time, I bought an FDC card, a serial card, and a CGA card. My 5150 has been in my shed for ten years since I closed my office. When I put it into storage, If I remember correctly, it had 2 360s (SA455, one of which had write-protect jumpering reversed to write notchless disks), a 96tpi 5.25" (SA465? or Teac 55F), and an external 8", with CGA, AST multifunction, and aftermarket (Maynard?) FDC. XenoCopy was designed for 5150 and 5160. Although, in general, it would work with 5170, etc., in the documentation, I explicitly disclaimed any promise of working on bizarre newer stuff. It was for a specific purpose, and if your new fancy machine couldn't handle it, then do THAT task on a REAL 5150 or 5160. In fact, my publisher (may they ROT IN PIECES) sent out prerelease copies for review that still had in them explicit tests to prevent them from running on anything other than an IBM 5150/5160. BTW, I did the documentation for XenoCopy on a Corona Data Systems/Cordat laser printer controller, whose software REFUSES to work on a 286. > Think realistically, please. Make THAT request of somebody who is more prone to do so. Unreasonable?? Damn straight. The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. - George Bernard Shaw I asked Gary Kildall to designate an arbitrary set of parameters as the "standard 5.25" format for CP/M. He responded, the standard format for CP/M is 8" SSSD. I repect[ed] his refusal, but IF he had done so, MS-DOS would not have been the platform for XenoCopy. > Not a retrocomputing wet dream. > Even in the 386 era, Ya mean when PCs weren't FUN anymore?? I got out of computers in 1970 during the aerospace collapse, with a self promise to return when individual computers became feasable. I was late getting into MICROcomputers (TRS80 4K level1), and never had much motivation to keep up with the "progress". What has "improved" in the last 10 or 20 years? Sure, they've gotten faster, but MICROS~1 PLANS on Moore's law, and the software takes away any performance gains of the faster hardware. Other than the higher data transfer rates needed for HD (and ED), the 5150 was better for floppy use than anything that came later. The 5150/5160 tech ref had full source code for Int 13h. When the 5170 came out, its techref did not have comments on the code for density/DTR change! As a beginning programmer (which I still am), I had a helluva struggle figuring out how to over-ride 250K/300K/500K DTRs. > BY FAR most machines had only two floppies and > one hard disk. Staring with 286, having a reasonable number of floppies (more than 2) was becoming increasingly awkward and even sometimes difficult. And many of the HD/floppy controllers that purported to support 4 drives were bordering on unusable. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 8 14:53:27 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:53:27 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP References: Message-ID: <7BE66356A1844452875229A53FD010C5@vl420mt> ----- Original Message: Message: 20 Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:57:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeff Jonas To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed replying to ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> Nice! There's been a resurgence in appreciation of the "classics". > The 5160 I just mentioned with 4 floppy drive How did you accomplish that? - a controller that honors all 4 drive selects, not just 2 - primary & secondary disk controller - Compaticard or other disk controller at "non-standard" address & IRQ? My pre-PC systems (mostly Z80 CP/M) all support 4 floppies per the original specs. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, the PC's "cable twist" ruined that, limiting things to 2 floppies and 2 hard drives per controller. Not 'till SATA have we been able to un-do that mistake :-( ----- Reply: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, as Chuck said, you've obviously lived a sheltered life; the PC & XT supported 4 drives just like your Z80 CP/M boxes, and instead of "ruining" anything, the "cable twist" actually permitted running only one motor at a time instead of needlessly spinning and wearing out the idle disks (since most 5 1/4 drives did not have head load solenoids). As to hard disks, how many of your Z80 CP/M ST412/506 hard disk controllers had provisions for more than two drives? As to other interfaces I think SCSI and IDE (PATA) both allowed more than two drives per controller and predate SATA by quite a bit... m From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 8 15:32:27 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:32:27 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <004b01cc553d$a559bef0$f00d3cd0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 7, 11 09:07:31 pm Message-ID: <00cf01cc560a$4b3dba20$e1b92e60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 08 August 2011 19:24 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > > > > > > > > Sure there are complicted terminals, but be honest. Which would you > > > rather fix : A VT100 or a modern Wintel PC? > > > > > > > Answer: A modern Wintel PC: I can just go to one of any number of > > shops and buy a replacement part :-) > > Odd... I've never ben able to find the PC spares that _I_ want in any shop or > catalogue :-( > > -tony Ahhh, but you said "modern" PC, I suppose it depends on what you mean by modern.... :-) I suspect your definition of modern probably differs considerably from that of the ordinary person in the street :-) Of course when it comes to laptops you can forget it even with "modern" ones, which is one of the reasons why I don't like them. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 8 15:34:56 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:34:56 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <006501cc5558$044f4a50$0ceddef0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 8, 11 00:16:13 am Message-ID: <00d001cc560a$a4692e40$ed3b8ac0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 08 August 2011 19:31 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > > > I realise that Tony wishes to understand how a machine works and > > repair the least possible. I like that principle too, especially when > > it comes to > > I find that the only way to be sure I have cured the fualt is to know what the > fault was. Replaicng parts until the fualt seems to go away is very > unsatisfactory (particularly with intermittent faults), you might well have > distrubed a bad connection when replacing some other part, for example. > > > vintage equipment. I also understand the argument about what you > > consider a > > I have to say that you were very much 'thrown in the deep end' by having an > H7140 PSU as one of your first repairs. I'd not wish that on anybody :-) Despite the frustrations it has actually been quite an enjoyable experience so far, I am just hoping the last little repair will really be the last, I will know in a few days. I have really learned a lot, which is all thanks to your amazing help. My initial comment was really tongue in cheek, particularly knowing who I was replying to... :-) > > With vintage machines, you often hgave to repair to compoent level for the > simple reason that you can stil lget the components (even if they are not still > being made, there are likely to be NO ones around), but you can't find > _known-good_ spare bartds, etc to swap in. I couldn't repair my HP9800s as > HP intended (by repacing boards until the machine works) becasue finding a > known-good HP9800 board set is imposible. FortunatelyI am not afraid to use > a logic anaylser... > > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 15:45:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:45:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110808115940.K77207@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 8, 11 12:53:49 pm Message-ID: > BTW, I did the documentation for XenoCopy on a Corona Data Systems/Cordat > laser printer controller, whose software REFUSES to work on a 286. Was that one of the cards that used the PC to create the page bitmap nd set it driectly to the printer engine (probably a Canon CX-VDO)? I know that printer fairly well, having created one to use on my PERQ (which has a similar printer interface). Pity you can no longer get toner cartridges for it :-( > > > Think realistically, please. > Make THAT request of somebody who is more prone to do so. > > Unreasonable?? Damn straight. Ditto... > > The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one > persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. - George Bernard Shaw 'Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man' > What has "improved" in the last 10 or 20 years? Sure, they've gotten > faster, but MICROS~1 PLANS on Moore's law, and the software takes away an= > y > performance gains of the faster hardware. As I have said here before, I can't think of one development in the last 30 years which has actaully improved my life ,or made it easier to do the things I want to do (I can think of many that have had the reverse effect though). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 15:49:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:49:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <00cf01cc560a$4b3dba20$e1b92e60$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 8, 11 09:32:27 pm Message-ID: > Ahhh, but you said "modern" PC, I suppose it depends on what you mean by > modern.... :-) No, I think it's more what I man by 'spare parts' :-) A Modern PC is the sort of thing I could go and buy in PC World or similar. As in 'buy brand new today'. But as for spares, I was thinking of things like a replacement video controller chip, or a chopper transformer for the PSU, or ... -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 8 15:51:52 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 13:51:52 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <00d001cc560a$a4692e40$ed3b8ac0$@ntlworld.com> References: <006501cc5558$044f4a50$0ceddef0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 8, 11 00:16:13 am <00d001cc560a$a4692e40$ed3b8ac0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E404C68.8020006@bitsavers.org> On 8/8/11 1:34 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Despite the frustrations it has actually been quite an enjoyable experience > so far, I am just hoping the last little repair will really be the last, I > will know in a few days. I have really learned a lot, which is all thanks to > your amazing help. My initial comment was really tongue in cheek, > particularly knowing who I was replying to... :-) > Care to write down the whole process? Failures are pretty common for that supply, and it might help someone else. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 8 15:53:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:53:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <00d001cc560a$a4692e40$ed3b8ac0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 8, 11 09:34:56 pm Message-ID: > > I have to say that you were very much 'thrown in the deep end' by having > an > > H7140 PSU as one of your first repairs. I'd not wish that on anybody :-) > > > Despite the frustrations it has actually been quite an enjoyable experience I am glad :-) > so far, I am just hoping the last little repair will really be the last, I I wil lget easier. The first few reparis are always the hardest, after a bit you get to know what to look for, what tests to do, etc. This won;t be your last ever repari, I can assure you -), at least not if you stick with classic computers. But I find fault tracing to be fun. It's a puzzle. You have to gather clues (using the 'scope, logic analyser, etc) and think about what they mean. Probabyl about as sueful as solving other sorts of puzzles... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 16:05:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 14:05:41 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: from "Jeff Jonas" at Aug 7, 11 07:57:39 pm, Message-ID: <4E3FED35.13137.1492FCA@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2011 at 20:19, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I forgot about the scond disk controller, which means the > thing can actually have 6 floppy drives. However, the last 2 are not > accessible from MS-DOs, only from special softwate. I have an old "tower" fitted with 5 3.5" floppies and 1 360K floppy, three controllers (including the one on the hard disk controller). The three floppy controllers use different DMA, IRQ and port addresses. All are accessible through DOS (drivers). I have a bit of software that we marketed for a short time that writes to three drives simultaneously as a copying utility. We sold it to a few commercial customers. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 8 16:08:48 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:08:48 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E404C68.8020006@bitsavers.org> References: <006501cc5558$044f4a50$0ceddef0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 8, 11 00:16:13 am <00d001cc560a$a4692e40$ed3b8ac0$@ntlworld.com> <4E404C68.8020006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00d101cc560f$5f288150$1d7983f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 08 August 2011 21:52 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > > On 8/8/11 1:34 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > Despite the frustrations it has actually been quite an enjoyable > > experience so far, I am just hoping the last little repair will really > > be the last, I will know in a few days. I have really learned a lot, > > which is all thanks to your amazing help. My initial comment was > > really tongue in cheek, particularly knowing who I was replying to... > > :-) > > > > Care to write down the whole process? Failures are pretty common for that > supply, and it might help someone else. I have already been writing some of it down, when I am done I will complete it and let you take a look before sending it to the list. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 8 16:09:33 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:09:33 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> Sadly, the TIF you found does not seem to have the information, but thanks for looking. As for IRC, ychat wants to install Java and I don't. For the amount of use I would get out of IRC I don't really want to pay for a commercial copy either. If you can suggest an IRC client that runs on Windows, that is free because I would not use it a lot, and doesn't want to install Java or scads of Unix compatibility software (eg Cygwin) then I am all ears. By the way, if I can I will come to the next steaming of the Leawood pump in Cromford, it looks interesting and I think my sons would enjoy it. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > Sent: 08 August 2011 11:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: LA50 Manuals > > > > > Incidentally, a while back you responded to an email about the H7140 > > PSU from the PDP11/24, for which I think you also have the fiche. I am > > still interested in a couple of bits of information from the printset > > for the newer design, would you be able photograph a couple of pages? > > I am interested in the Input Assembly and the Bias and Interface > > board. On the latter I have a specific question: My bias and interface > > board had what looked like a broken track, and it did look broken > > rather than deliberately cut. Could you tell me if the collector of Q2 > > (p87 of the older printset on > > bitsavers) is connected to anything? If so, what is it connected to? > > Been trawling the fiche and net while I have the IPB docs for the > H7140 I dont seem to have the technical manual with the circuit so cannot > give any circuit details, the H7140 is not mentioned in the index part only the > older docs on bitsavers seem to cover it > > so after some digging I only find EK-BA11A-TM-003 that points to MP00832 > http://manx.archivist.info/publication.php?search=00832&company=1&id=6 > 202 > gives > http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/PDP-11-44/BA11- > A%20FMPS%20MP00832.tif > and the illustrated parts EK-H7140-IP which I have on fiche > > does not seem well documented > > > > > > Unfortunately I don't have IRC so we'll have to rely on email. > you have internet! therefore you have irc, just install xchat (linux) ychat > (windaz) > > > Dave Caroline From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 8 16:31:35 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 14:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110808142041.G77207@shell.lmi.net> > > BTW, I did the documentation for XenoCopy on a Corona Data Systems/Cordat > > laser printer controller, whose software REFUSES to work on a 286. On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Was that one of the cards that used the PC to create the page bitmap nd > set it driectly to the printer engine (probably a Canon CX-VDO)? I know > that printer fairly well, having created one to use on my PERQ (which has > a similar printer interface). That's the one. I also cabled the same one to an Eiconscript board and a Jlaser > Pity you can no longer get toner cartridges > for it :-( But, until the drum, etc. wear out,you just need some bulk toner and a set of torx bits > > The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one > > persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. - George Bernard Shaw > > 'Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man' > > As I have said here before, I can't think of one development in the last > 30 years which has actaully improved my life ,or made it easier to do the > things I want to do (I can think of many that have had the reverse effect > though). I like URLs. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 16:32:12 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 22:32:12 +0100 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: This ychat http://www.silverex.org/news/ which is a forked xchat without the money scrounging Xchat the real thing begs for money after 30 days on windows and becomes unreadable. yet is completely free on linux! and not http://ychat.sarovar.org/ I run a mile from anything yahoo and java, a double nasty I didnt know of till just now! Dave Caroline From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 16:36:31 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 17:36:31 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110808115940.K77207@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110808104907.O77207@shell.lmi.net> <20110808115940.K77207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > ALL of those, with the exception of the 1.2M and the 1.4M, MOST before the > 5160 came out, I used on my 5150, which I ordered from IBM in 1981 with > 16K of RAM. Do you honestly think that the IBM PC design team thought that people would hang all this different stuff off their machines? -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 8 17:14:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 15:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: <20110808104907.O77207@shell.lmi.net> <20110808115940.K77207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110808145807.Q77207@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > Do you honestly think that the IBM PC design team thought that people > would hang all this different stuff off their machines? I honestly don't know what they intended. They made provivion for expansion, such as building in support for [optional] four floppies, [optional] serial, [optional] parallel, provision for both video systems to co-exist, etc. They were obviously well aware of the propensity for expansion of TRS80 and Apple][. Their internal expansion options look like they were modeled after Apple, but I'm sure that absolutely everything was completely original. And having only 5 expansion slots was to demonstrate that they were big enough that they didn't have to learn from anybody else's mistakes. But, they included support for cassette write-only storage, RF modulator, and some early commercials were of a toddler playing with it on the living room rug (which the Lisa also did). They explicitly made provision for multiple serial and parallel ports! They did NOT make provision for multiple FDC, although they also didn't take steps to block it. You are, however, absolutely right that I KNOW that I have never been their target market. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 17:43:52 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 15:43:52 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110808145807.Q77207@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20110808145807.Q77207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2011 at 15:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > And having only 5 expansion slots was to demonstrate that they were > big enough that they didn't have to learn from anybody else's > mistakes. One thing that really stuck out to me as a design flaw that we are still living with was the physical design of the expansion slots. Far too Apple-like (i.e. cheap). Contrast it with most "professional" buses, such as Multibus, Eurocard, etc) that "cage" cards and are able to secure cards and ensure a good flow of cooling air between the cards. The single-screw bracket with no other retention allows for cards to pop out of their slots and receive very little in the way of coolig is just plain wrong, even if it is cheap. I've seen industrial rackmount PC chassis with hold-down brackets and rubber "bumpers" to hold cards in place, but it's a mess because of there being no standard profile for a PC expansion card. >From that I can only conclude that the PC was intended as a home entertainment system. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 8 18:33:04 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 19:33:04 -0400 Subject: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E407230.3000604@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/08/11 5:32 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > This ychat http://www.silverex.org/news/ which is a forked xchat > without the money scrounging > > Xchat the real thing begs for money after 30 days on windows and > becomes unreadable. yet is completely free on linux! > I strongly recommend weechat, a console client. I wasn't happy with any irc client I'd seen until I tried it. --Toby > and not http://ychat.sarovar.org/ > I run a mile from anything yahoo and java, a double nasty I didnt know > of till just now! > > Dave Caroline > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 8 18:35:05 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 19:35:05 -0400 Subject: irc clients for Windows - was Re: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E4072A9.70404@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/08/11 5:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Sadly, the TIF you found does not seem to have the information, but thanks > for looking. > > As for IRC, ychat wants to install Java and I don't. For the amount of use I > would get out of IRC I don't really want to pay for a commercial copy > either. If you can suggest an IRC client that runs on Windows, that is free > because I would not use it a lot, and doesn't want to install Java or scads > of Unix compatibility software (eg Cygwin) then I am all ears. Hm, my answer about weechat was premature, its Windows port is still under development. If you're stuck with Windows, how about mirc? http://www.mirc.com/ --Toby > > By the way, if I can I will come to the next steaming of the Leawood pump in > Cromford, it looks interesting and I think my sons would enjoy it. > > Regards > > Rob > From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 18:48:13 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 16:48:13 -0700 Subject: irc clients for Windows - was Re: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <4E4072A9.70404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> <4E4072A9.70404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I def second mirc great way to go for windows users chris On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 4:35 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 08/08/11 5:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Sadly, the TIF you found does not seem to have the information, but > thanks > > for looking. > > > > As for IRC, ychat wants to install Java and I don't. For the amount of > use I > > would get out of IRC I don't really want to pay for a commercial copy > > either. If you can suggest an IRC client that runs on Windows, that is > free > > because I would not use it a lot, and doesn't want to install Java or > scads > > of Unix compatibility software (eg Cygwin) then I am all ears. > > Hm, my answer about weechat was premature, its Windows port is still > under development. > > If you're stuck with Windows, how about mirc? http://www.mirc.com/ > > --Toby > > > > > By the way, if I can I will come to the next steaming of the Leawood pump > in > > Cromford, it looks interesting and I think my sons would enjoy it. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 18:48:37 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 19:48:37 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110808145807.Q77207@shell.lmi.net> <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > One thing that really stuck out to me as a design flaw that we are > still living with was the physical design of the expansion slots. > Far too Apple-like (i.e. cheap). ?Contrast it with most > "professional" buses, such as Multibus, Eurocard, etc) that "cage" > cards and are able to secure cards and ensure a good flow of cooling > air between the cards. I am no fan of the design either, but was the physical connection or cooing ever really an issue for cards that followed the design specs? It seems "good enough" - which is just where the bean counters like things. > I've seen industrial rackmount PC chassis with hold-down brackets and > rubber "bumpers" to hold cards in place, but it's a mess because of > there being no standard profile for a PC expansion card. IBM made a line of industrial PCs - beefier supports, with more cooling. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 8 18:54:43 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 16:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20110808145807.Q77207@shell.lmi.net> <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110808164907.S77207@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One thing that really stuck out to me as a design flaw that we are > still living with was the physical design of the expansion slots. > Far too Apple-like (i.e. cheap). Contrast it with most > "professional" buses, such as Multibus, Eurocard, etc) that "cage" > cards and are able to secure cards and ensure a good flow of cooling > air between the cards. In addition to the poor mounting, they did not even include the addressability that Apple had had. OK, one slot on the 5160 had a difference, but they didn't seem to make much effort to document that. > From that I can only conclude that the PC was intended as a home > entertainment system. Which merely shows an incompetence when it comes to home entertainment. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 19:29:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 17:29:50 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: , <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E401D0E.27279.2041520@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2011 at 19:48, William Donzelli wrote: > I am no fan of the design either, but was the physical connection or > cooing ever really an issue for cards that followed the design specs? > It seems "good enough" - which is just where the bean counters like > things. Just so--I point this out because there was speculation as to what the target market might be. But even early on, some cards, such as the PGC (1984), taxed the design. I was mildy surprised to find that three-PCB sandwich didn't fail after a few hundred hours. The NEC PC9801, introduced in 1982 had a much superior card system. I remember thinking that the 9801 was probably a better system for the money than the 5150. (better graphics, 8086 instead of 8088, etc.) The only problem was that NEC kept the system closed-- including details about C-Bus. Certainly PC98 architecture found its way into lots of industrial applications and is still in use today. Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 19:52:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 17:52:44 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110808164907.S77207@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110808164907.S77207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E40226C.20955.2190B56@cclist.sydex.com> Come to think of it, didn't the IBM 5551 (JX) host 3 floppy drives in the main box? Better expansion card design than the 5150 also. That would be a real collectible system, at any rate, along with a Mitsubishi Multi-16. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 19:52:53 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 20:52:53 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E401D0E.27279.2041520@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> <4E401D0E.27279.2041520@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Just so--I point this out because there was speculation as to what > the target market might be. ?But even early on, some cards, such as > the PGC (1984), taxed the design. ?I was mildy surprised to find that > three-PCB sandwich didn't fail after a few hundred hours. Well, maybe the IBM geeks did the math right. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 8 20:02:30 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:02:30 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E40226C.20955.2190B56@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110808164907.S77207@shell.lmi.net> <4E40226C.20955.2190B56@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Come to think of it, didn't the IBM 5551 (JX) host 3 floppy drives in > the main box? ?Better expansion card design than the 5150 also. Yes, but that was a PC sort-of with a word processor bolted on the side. Very kludgey in a Japanese sort of way. -- Will From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Aug 8 20:20:08 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 13:20:08 +1200 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP References: , <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110808164907.S77207@shell.lmi.net> <4E40226C.20955.2190B56@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2FC726EB7D114637BDB502FCFA34847E@massey.ac.nz> Yea, Those models pop up here in New Zealand now and again and are not THAT rare. Maybe we were a bit of a test bed for the machine (western country, small isolated population so if something bombed it didn't take the whole brand with it..this has certainly been the case in past with other electronic devices)? Terry Stewart (Tezza) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 12:52 PM Subject: Re: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP > Come to think of it, didn't the IBM 5551 (JX) host 3 floppy drives in > the main box? Better expansion card design than the 5150 also. > > That would be a real collectible system, at any rate, along with a > Mitsubishi Multi-16. > > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 8 20:21:28 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 18:21:28 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: , <4E40226C.20955.2190B56@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E402928.29021.2335B8B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2011 at 21:02, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, but that was a PC sort-of with a word processor bolted on the > side. Very kludgey in a Japanese sort of way. Marketed in a very strange way also. I remember reading about the JX in ComputerWeek and picking up the phone and calling the local sales office. "How can I get one?" "-- You can't". Supposedly only for the Japanese market, but also marketed (IIRC) in Australia and NZ, those bastions of the Japanese language... --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 8 20:38:19 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 18:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: irc clients for Windows - was Re: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <4E4072A9.70404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> <4E4072A9.70404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Aug 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > On 08/08/11 5:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> Sadly, the TIF you found does not seem to have the information, but thanks >> for looking. >> >> As for IRC, ychat wants to install Java and I don't. For the amount of use I >> would get out of IRC I don't really want to pay for a commercial copy >> either. If you can suggest an IRC client that runs on Windows, that is free >> because I would not use it a lot, and doesn't want to install Java or scads >> of Unix compatibility software (eg Cygwin) then I am all ears. > > Hm, my answer about weechat was premature, its Windows port is still > under development. > > If you're stuck with Windows, how about mirc? http://www.mirc.com/ > If you're a FireFox user, ChatZilla is a great IRC plugin. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Aug 8 20:46:28 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 21:46:28 -0400 Subject: irc clients for Windows - was Re: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: <4E4072A9.70404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com>, , <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com>, , <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com>, <4E4072A9.70404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: pidgin - its open source and can keep your private conversations private with OTR > Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 19:35:05 -0400 > From: toby at telegraphics.com.au > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: irc clients for Windows - was Re: LA50 Manuals > > > > > By the way, if I can I will come to the next steaming of the Leawood pump in > > Cromford, it looks interesting and I think my sons would enjoy it. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 8 21:44:16 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 21:44:16 -0500 Subject: PS2Encoder Board Run Message-ID: <4E409F00.4020107@jbrain.com> I'm planning to make a board run of my PS/2 KB to serial/parallel adapter: http://www.go4retro.com/2011/03/11/micro-project-ps2encoder/ I'm wondering if anyone who might use the item has any suggestions prior to my committing the design to the PCB fab house? * Among other things, rs232 signalling are TTL levels. Is that an issue? (I'm not sure how to add a level shifter without expanding the board size. * The board offers 24 pin DIP footprint and 2x12 headers for connections. Concerns? * The PS/2 connector is on the edge of the board, but can be wired up via pigtails. Is that OK? Any suggestions welcome. I am hoping to offer the board in PCB form, and in finished programmed form. I think the finished option would be < $20.00, if that makes any difference. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From pinball at telus.net Mon Aug 8 10:43:44 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 08:43:44 -0700 Subject: First IBM PC Commercial In-Reply-To: <1312757220.35621.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1312757220.35621.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E400430.7030903@telus.net> Christian Liendo wrote: > Anyone know where I can find the first IBM PC commercial? > It's not on youtube and they have one on Gametrailers.. > I'm looking for it to post on my blog for the 30th anniversary of the PC > > Is this what you are looking for? http://www.ibm.com/ibm100/us/en/icons/personalcomputer/ John :-#)# From pinball at telus.net Mon Aug 8 10:50:58 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2011 08:50:58 -0700 Subject: First IBM PC Commercial In-Reply-To: <1312757220.35621.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1312757220.35621.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E4005E2.5050409@telus.net> Christian Liendo wrote: > Anyone know where I can find the first IBM PC commercial? > It's not on youtube and they have one on Gametrailers.. > I'm looking for it to post on my blog for the 30th anniversary of the PC > > Well, that wasn't so good, DigiBarn has a fair bit on the 1st IBM PC though: http://www.digibarn.com/stories/ibm-pc-25/index.html Links to IBM's first press release and others... John :-#)# From PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk Tue Aug 9 02:54:29 2011 From: PeksaDO at cardiff.ac.uk (Doug Peksa) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 08:54:29 +0100 Subject: MDA / CGA / QBasic / PC-XT Message-ID: Remember doing exactly that 25 or so years ago. Wrote some process control software; CGA monitor on top of the PC and the MDA monitor hanging from the roof of the factory floor displaying bundling information. Machine control via the parallel port which required a tiny bit of assembler but the rest was QBasic. Doug. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Aug 9 05:17:43 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 11:17:43 +0100 Subject: Rock hard DVD? In-Reply-To: <4E400430.7030903@telus.net> Message-ID: <6467C902EAB54318A7F3C24C6DF661FC@ANTONIOPC> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9218881/Start_up_to_release_stone _like_optical_disc_that_lasts_forever?taxonomyId=19&pageNumber=1 I expect that it's all just hype but it would be nice to know I could archive everything (again?) and have it last a few hundred years. (It would be nice to have a player that works two hundred years from now but that's a different issue I guess). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 08:12:56 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 06:12:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: First IBM PC Commercial In-Reply-To: <4E400430.7030903@telus.net> Message-ID: <1312895576.85372.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thank you but sadly that is not what I am looking for.. I will just have to use the one in game trailers... They allow you to embed their videos on your blog. --- On Mon, 8/8/11, John Robertson wrote: > Is this what you are looking for? > > http://www.ibm.com/ibm100/us/en/icons/personalcomputer/ > > John :-#)# > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 09:23:53 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 09:23:53 -0500 Subject: irc clients for Windows - was Re: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> <4E4072A9.70404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: icechat and its free On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > pidgin - its open source and can keep your private conversations private > with OTR > > > Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 19:35:05 -0400 > > From: toby at telegraphics.com.au > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: irc clients for Windows - was Re: LA50 Manuals > > > > > > > > By the way, if I can I will come to the next steaming of the Leawood > pump in > > > Cromford, it looks interesting and I think my sons would enjoy it. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 9 10:45:09 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 08:45:09 -0700 Subject: MDA / CGA / QBasic / PC-XT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E40F395.16321.6793A@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2011 at 8:54, Doug Peksa wrote: > Remember doing exactly that 25 or so years ago. Wrote some process > control software; CGA monitor on top of the PC and the MDA monitor > hanging from the roof of the factory floor displaying bundling > information. Machine control via the parallel port which required a > tiny bit of assembler but the rest was QBasic. Exactly. I recall some real-time applications that used CGA to graphically display the state of a process and MDA as the text-mode interaction with an operator. From a programming standpoint, beats the hell out of (small "W") windows interface. Some early CAD systems, I believe could also do a similar thing. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 9 10:47:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 08:47:03 -0700 Subject: MDA / CGA / QBasic / PC-XT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E40F407.29395.8360D@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2011 at 8:54, Doug Peksa wrote: > Remember doing exactly that 25 or so years ago. Wrote some process > control software; CGA monitor on top of the PC and the MDA monitor > hanging from the roof of the factory floor displaying bundling > information. Machine control via the parallel port which required a > tiny bit of assembler but the rest was QBasic. The NEC PC9801 took an alternate approach--it had two graphics controllers in the machine, so graphics and text were handled independently and could be superimposed on the same screen. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 9 11:00:26 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 10:00:26 -0600 Subject: PS2Encoder Board Run In-Reply-To: <4E409F00.4020107@jbrain.com> References: <4E409F00.4020107@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <2a0875fefe9f6555f53f37aa498df1c6@localhost> On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 21:44:16 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: > I'm planning to make a board run of my PS/2 KB to serial/parallel adapter: > > http://www.go4retro.com/2011/03/11/micro-project-ps2encoder/ > > I'm wondering if anyone who might use the item has any suggestions prior > to my committing the design to the PCB fab house? > > * Among other things, rs232 signalling are TTL levels. Is that an > issue? (I'm not sure how to add a level shifter without expanding > the board size. > * The board offers 24 pin DIP footprint and 2x12 headers for > connections. Concerns? > * The PS/2 connector is on the edge of the board, but can be wired up > via pigtails. Is that OK? > > > Any suggestions welcome. I am hoping to offer the board in PCB form, > and in finished programmed form. I think the finished option would be < > $20.00, if that makes any difference. > > Jim Is that PC encodeded keys or ASCII code out? Ben. PS. I think a nice IBM keyboard to Ascii converter would be handy. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 9 13:00:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 19:00:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110808145807.Q77207@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 8, 11 03:14:57 pm Message-ID: > They did NOT make provision for multiple FDC, although they also didn't > take steps to block it. The buffer to drive the DMA requrst line on the IBM FDC card is a 3-state drvice, whit the eneable software-controllaable. Thus you can disable it and allow some other device (like a second FDC) to use that DMA channel. When the PC firsrt came out, the FDC was justabotu the only thing that needed a DMA cahnnel. So the 3-start bufer was fitted by IBM to allow you to do somthing they'd not really considered (more DMA devices, inclduing a second FDC). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 9 13:03:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 19:03:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 8, 11 03:43:52 pm Message-ID: > The single-screw bracket with no other retention allows for cards to > pop out of their slots and receive very little in the way of coolig > is just plain wrong, even if it is cheap. At least IBM procided a hold-down bracket (and a guide for the front edge of full-length cards). Unlike the Apple ][ where te expansion cards were supported by the edge conenctor only, and could wobble and break contact. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 9 12:53:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 18:53:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E404C68.8020006@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Aug 8, 11 01:51:52 pm Message-ID: > Care to write down the whole process? Failures are pretty common for that > supply, and it might help someone else. That PSU is one of the most complex ones you are likely to come across. It's actually 3 SMPSUs in one box, with aditional complications. All run off the same rectifier/smoothign circuit, the capacitros for which are the 2 coke-can sized ones at the left hand side. There's a small, and relatively convientional SMPSU to provide power for the rest of the supply. This one is nasty in that much of the circuitry is not isolated from the power line. It also has no overcurrent protection, so a fault in one of its loads can caus the chopper transitro to fail. The logic supply (+5V @ 125A and +/-15V) has its control circuity on the ouput (isolated) side of the supply, powered by the above SMPSU. The memory supply starts with a 36V SMPUS which is similar in design to the logic PSU. The rail can be battery-backed, and powers non-isolating switching regulatrors to provide +-5V and+/-12V for the memroy boards. It also powers a full-H driver circuit to operate the unconventional 35V 70Hz AC fans. There is a ltitle control circuitry to enable the appropriate supplies for each postion of the console switch. Note that when mains is applied, the first PSU I mentiond will be running (irrespectvie of the position of the cosole swtich), and the large cpaactiros will be charigng from the mains. There is a relay in the mains inptu circuit, but it's not an on-off switch. Its function is to short-circuit an inrush limiter (either a resistor or a thermistor depending on the version) once the PSU has got going. Repairing it can be easy or difficult depending on the fault. The first thing to nore is that the 350V DC from thos large capacitors, which is fed to the logic and memory supply boards by wires on barrier strip terminal, is letjhal. Very lethal. Take great care if you have to work on the unit when it's powered up. The first PSU, the little one, is probably the worst to repair in that it's mostly on the mains side of the isolation barrier, so an isolating transformer is very useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 9 12:55:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 18:55:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110808142041.G77207@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 8, 11 02:31:35 pm Message-ID: [CX toner cartridges] > But, until the drum, etc. wear out,you just need some bulk toner and a > set of torx bits I've dismantled said cartridges (and put them back together), but I've never refilled one. What toner do you use, and where do you find it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 9 13:44:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 19:44:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: MDA / CGA / QBasic / PC-XT In-Reply-To: <4E40F407.29395.8360D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 9, 11 08:47:03 am Message-ID: > The NEC PC9801 took an alternate approach--it had two graphics > controllers in the machine, so graphics and text were handled > independently and could be superimposed on the same screen. As did the DEC Rainbow. The colour video card for that machine was a completely separate system to the built-inmonochome text display. If you used the standard cable with a colour monitor you got the text appering in green, and the colour graphics. With a special cable you could have text on a mono monitor and sparate colour grapgics on a second monitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 9 13:48:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 19:48:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: MDA / CGA / QBasic / PC-XT In-Reply-To: <4E40F395.16321.6793A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 9, 11 08:45:09 am Message-ID: > > Exactly. I recall some real-time applications that used CGA to > graphically display the state of a process and MDA as the text-mode > interaction with an operator. From a programming standpoint, beats > the hell out of (small "W") windows interface. Some early CAD > systems, I believe could also do a similar thing. I have used an electronic CAD system where the th schematic or PCB was displayed on an EGA monitor and the menus and help text on an MDA monitor on the same PC. (An EGA card se to a colour mode will co-exist with an MDA card, I beleive an EGA card set to the mono grpahics mode will co-exist with a CGA card). I also heard of an early PC based CAD system which had a special display controller and colour monitor conencted using a serial interface. The normal PC video system was used for menus, etc. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 9 14:47:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 12:47:32 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: <20110808145807.Q77207@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 8, 11 03:14:57 pm, Message-ID: <4E412C64.10820.E462FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2011 at 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > They did NOT make provision for multiple FDC, although they also > > didn't take steps to block it. > > The buffer to drive the DMA requrst line on the IBM FDC card is a > 3-state drvice, whit the eneable software-controllaable. Thus you can > disable it and allow some other device (like a second FDC) to use that > DMA channel. The IBM FDC was made perfectly capable of sharing the bus with another FDC; all that is needed is a separate range of I/O ports. Interrupt and DMA both can be shared. Note that a more=or-less de facto standard for secondary FDC ports (370h-378h) was well- established early on. Most floppy controllers respond to a RESET signal as being in a disabled state. The XT hard disk controller also used DMA channel 3 and a few network cards also used ISA DMA. Once the 80286 came along with its "string" I/O instructions (INS, OUTS), programmed I/O became quite a bit faster than ISA 8-bit legacy DMA. 8-bit DMA using what amounts to the DMA controller for an 8085 gets pretty clumsy, having to be aware of 64K physical address boundaries (8237 DMA 'wraps" a 64K physical boundary). Later CPUs with integrated DMA (e.g. 80186, V40 or even the often-forgotten 8089 I/O cotntroller) all enjoy a continous 20-bit DMA address space. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 9 15:13:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 13:13:57 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E412C64.10820.E462FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110808145807.Q77207@shell.lmi.net>, , <4E412C64.10820.E462FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E413295.28076.FC9040@cclist.sydex.com> ...a bit more on DMA... The Intel 440BX/GX chipsets were the last ones that I'm aware of to fully support ISA devices, including those that use legacy DMA. My experience with later Intel chipsets, such as the 820 that employ a bridge chip such as the National PC87200 seldom support ISA DMA or do so with "gotchas". So it's a good idea not to toss that PII motherboard if you want to use DMA-oriented ISA devices. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 9 15:42:29 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 14:42:29 -0600 Subject: museum name contest Message-ID: My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an alternative name that we can use. I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, or that will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know anything about computing history. If your name is selected and you're in the continental US, I have a C=64 demoscene DVD I will award to you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 15:48:43 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:48:43 -0500 Subject: PS2Encoder Board Run In-Reply-To: <4E409F00.4020107@jbrain.com> References: <4E409F00.4020107@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 9:44 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > I'm planning to make a board run of my PS/2 KB to serial/parallel adapter: > > http://www.go4retro.com/2011/03/11/micro-project-ps2encoder/ For those unfamiliar, can you (or the list) give some examples of vintage machines that use a serial or parallel keyboard? One I can think of (and the reason I'd buy your adapter) is the Vector Graphic S-100 boxes. -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 15:50:19 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:50:19 -0500 Subject: Wow! Great OSI collection for someone in MI... In-Reply-To: <4e3f789e.82322b0a.3d6f.43aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <4e3f789e.82322b0a.3d6f.43aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I wish I was in or going to Michigan... > > Ebay lot # 310337111857 The same seller also has a very complete, incredibly cool Varityper typesetting system for $notmuch. I would love to rescue it but it's well beyond my means (storage & transport) at this time. I am hoping someone else will make arrangements to save it. This guy looks like he's a scrapper! -- jht From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 9 16:08:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 17:08:17 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20110808145807.Q77207@shell.lmi.net> <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E41A1C1.5080100@neurotica.com> On 08/08/2011 06:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One thing that really stuck out to me as a design flaw that we are > still living with was the physical design of the expansion slots. > Far too Apple-like (i.e. cheap). Contrast it with most > "professional" buses, such as Multibus, Eurocard, etc) that "cage" > cards and are able to secure cards and ensure a good flow of cooling > air between the cards. > > The single-screw bracket with no other retention allows for cards to > pop out of their slots and receive very little in the way of coolig > is just plain wrong, even if it is cheap. PCIe has the little latch on the other end for x16 cards. That seems to help a bit with the popping out problem. > From that I can only conclude that the PC was intended as a home > entertainment system. ...a status that it has finally achieved. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 9 16:10:24 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Richard wrote: > My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics > Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an > alternative name that we can use. > > I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that > (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, or that > will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know > anything about computing history. > > If your name is selected and you're in the continental US, I have a > C=64 demoscene DVD I will award to you. > How about Digital Imaginarium? If you want kids to remember it, you could go with Sponge Bob Square Graphics. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 9 16:25:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 15:25:42 -0600 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Gene Buckle writes: > How about Digital Imaginarium? Its already being used by a number of people, unfortunately. Hint: google proposed names first :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 9 16:34:23 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 17:34:23 -0400 Subject: museum name contest References: Message-ID: <87536058C5064F7B864B48EE58DE04FD@dell8300> Computer Graphics Hall of Fame ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 4:42 PM Subject: museum name contest > My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics > Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an > alternative name that we can use. > > I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that > (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, or that > will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know > anything about computing history. > > If your name is selected and you're in the continental US, I have a > C=64 demoscene DVD I will award to you. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 9 16:35:10 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 14:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Gene Buckle writes: > >> How about Digital Imaginarium? > > Its already being used by a number of people, unfortunately. > > Hint: google proposed names first :-) > Pfft. That's cheating. :) Poor Richard's Graphiganza? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 9 16:44:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 17:44:23 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: <20110808104907.O77207@shell.lmi.net> <20110808115940.K77207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E41AA37.9040103@neurotica.com> On 08/08/2011 05:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> ALL of those, with the exception of the 1.2M and the 1.4M, MOST before the >> 5160 came out, I used on my 5150, which I ordered from IBM in 1981 with >> 16K of RAM. > > Do you honestly think that the IBM PC design team thought that people > would hang all this different stuff off their machines? The original IBM PC design team couldn't find their own asses with both hands, a funnel, and a roadmap. It was a success in the market purely by accident. I don't think their original intentions really carry much weight here; it was a miracle the thing worked at all, much less sold. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 9 16:55:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 17:55:57 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110807225141.K37093@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110807225141.K37093@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E41ACED.3010906@neurotica.com> On 08/08/2011 02:21 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> MDA and CGA cards, >> Dual display? What programs support that? ... >> I think that some early (pre-megapixel) CAD used both IBM displays. In fact, AutoCAD supported this, with the command line interface on the MDA and everything else on the graphics-capable card. AutoCAD's command line interface, with all of those original (and indispensable) commands is still there in both the Wintoy and UNIX versions, but one can no longer redirect the command line I/O to a different display, for obvious reasons. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 9 17:04:52 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1312927492.98690.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Plotted Pixel Paradise? Digitized Existence? Eye of the Compiler? -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 9 17:06:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 15:06:33 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E41A1C1.5080100@neurotica.com> References: , <4E400438.14488.1A3114F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E41A1C1.5080100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E414CF9.23536.163A876@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2011 at 17:08, Dave McGuire wrote: > PCIe has the little latch on the other end for x16 cards. That > seems to help a bit with the popping out problem. Something doubtless learned from the AGP poppers before someone got the idea of putting a latch on the motherboard. For me, the idea of cards with little fans mounted to them (or even CPU heatsinks with fans on them) points to poor design. I've got an old server with two P3/1GHz Slot 1 CPUs in it. They're located too close together to get good circulation from heatsink- mounted fans (besides, I don't trust the little buggers). I took some 3/8" Plexiglas and worked up ounting for a (Papst) 120mm fan that sits right over both CPUs. The highest temp I've observed thus far has been a toasty 38C. I think IBM did something similar with their Slot 1 Netfinity servers. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Aug 9 17:43:20 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 15:43:20 -0700 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <1312927492.98690.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: , <1312927492.98690.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Probably the only thing today's kids will remember is i - of course, then you have to deal with the wrath of Jobs. How about Museum of The Human/Computer Dialogue? -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus [ian_primus at yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 3:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: museum name contest Plotted Pixel Paradise? Digitized Existence? Eye of the Compiler? -Ian From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Tue Aug 9 17:54:26 2011 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 18:54:26 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/53 XXDP ZRQC?? on 5 1/4 floppy needed In-Reply-To: <1310434197.18734.YahooMailRC@web83803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1310434197.18734.YahooMailRC@web83803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20110809185323.02486388@verizon.net> Did you ever get the disk you were looking for? I need the same thing, I had one but accidentally over wrote it. Doug Taylor At 09:29 PM 7/11/2011, you wrote: >I have a friend that needs this set up to test some Hard Drives >and get his system going. Anyone out there that have a Floppy >that they could image with image disk and send me. > > >Thanks, Jerry > >Jerry Wright >JLC inc >g-wright at att.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 9 18:00:48 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110809155443.K28653@shell.lmi.net> > [CX toner cartridges] > > But, until the drum, etc. wear out,you just need some bulk toner and a > > set of torx bits On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I've dismantled said cartridges (and put them back together), but I've > never refilled one. What toner do you use, and where do you find it? I don't know. 20+ years ago, we bought toner intended for them. The staff in the computer lab learned the hard way that PC and CX cartridges were NOT the same, didn't fit the other machine, and the toner was "of reversed polarity" 10 years ago, a "friend" took more than a dozen PC and CX empties that I had that had never been refilled before, and traded them for one of each cartridges that had been refilled about a dozen times by drilling holes in them! What should I do with the ones that I have left? I couldn't even find anybody who wanted 4 CX machines (one of which was the Fedex model with different specs) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 9 18:25:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 19:25:15 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110809155443.K28653@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110809155443.K28653@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E41C1DB.3050201@neurotica.com> On 08/09/2011 07:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > 10 years ago, a "friend" took more than a dozen PC and CX empties that I > had that had never been refilled before, and traded them for one of each > cartridges that had been refilled about a dozen times by drilling holes > in them! I did that for a long time. A company I worked for did that as a service. It was messy, but profitable. One has to be work hard to prevent plastic chips from drilling from getting into the toner reservoir; they will ruin a drum in short order. > What should I do with the ones that I have left? I couldn't even find > anybody who wanted 4 CX machines (one of which was the Fedex model with > different specs) I can't take 'em, but it's a shame to see them go. Hmm, come to think of it, I'd probably give a home to a clean original HP LaserJet Series I. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 9 18:30:28 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Richard wrote: > My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics > Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an > alternative name that we can use. > I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that > (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, or that > will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know > anything about computing history. "PIXELS!" From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 9 18:34:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 19:34:44 -0400 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> On 08/09/2011 07:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics >> Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an >> alternative name that we can use. >> I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that >> (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, or that >> will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know >> anything about computing history. > > "PIXELS!" "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 9 18:47:11 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 19:47:11 -0400 Subject: MDA / CGA / QBasic / PC-XT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E41C6FF.8060407@neurotica.com> On 08/09/2011 02:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Exactly. I recall some real-time applications that used CGA to >> graphically display the state of a process and MDA as the text-mode >> interaction with an operator. From a programming standpoint, beats >> the hell out of (small "W") windows interface. Some early CAD >> systems, I believe could also do a similar thing. > > I have used an electronic CAD system where the th schematic or PCB was > displayed on an EGA monitor and the menus and help text on an MDA monitor > on the same PC. (An EGA card se to a colour mode will co-exist with an > MDA card, I beleive an EGA card set to the mono grpahics mode will > co-exist with a CGA card). The Calay schematic capture/PCB layout system did this. Interestingly, that system was built around a PDP-11/23 running (if memory serves) RT-11, and the extremely CPU-intensive task of PCB autorouting was farmed out to an interesting proprietary box containing a Z8000, configured with a DMA interface to the Qbus, treated as a sort of attached processor. The whole shebang is built into a very nice desk. I had the pleasure of using one of these systems at Princeton in the mid-late 1980s. I actually own one, sadly sans desk, but I've not yet physically picked it up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 9 18:50:27 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 16:50:27 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/53 XXDP ZRQC?? on 5 1/4 floppy needed In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20110809185323.02486388@verizon.net> References: <1310434197.18734.YahooMailRC@web83803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20110809185323.02486388@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:54 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > Did you ever get the disk you were looking for? ?I need the same thing, I > had one but accidentally over wrote it. > > Doug Taylor Are you looking for this in RX33 format? Given an RX33 image do you have the capability to write it out to a physical floppy from a PC? It shouldn't be too difficult to cook up a bootable RX33 XXDP image using SIMH. Of course only a subset of the XXDP diagnostics will fit on a single floppy so you need to tailor the set to the target system and task at hand. -Glen From g-wright at att.net Tue Aug 9 19:10:21 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 17:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/53 XXDP ZRQC?? on 5 1/4 floppy needed In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20110809185323.02486388@verizon.net> References: <1310434197.18734.YahooMailRC@web83803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20110809185323.02486388@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1312935021.8345.YahooMailRC@web83807.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> From: Douglas Taylor To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Tue, August 9, 2011 3:54:26 PM Subject: Re: PDP 11/53 XXDP ZRQC?? on 5 1/4 floppy needed Did you ever get the disk you were looking for? I need the same thing, I had one but accidentally over wrote it. Doug Taylor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No I did not. Still on hold for now. I did not here from anyone. - Jerry At 09:29 PM 7/11/2011, you wrote: >I have a friend that needs this set up to test some Hard Drives >and get his system going. Anyone out there that have a Floppy >that they could image with image disk and send me. > > >Thanks, Jerry > >Jerry Wright >JLC inc >g-wright at att.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 9 19:24:05 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 20:24:05 -0400 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E41CFA5.8020406@telegraphics.com.au> On 09/08/11 7:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/09/2011 07:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics >>> Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an >>> alternative name that we can use. >>> I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that >>> (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, or that >>> will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know >>> anything about computing history. >> >> "PIXELS!" > > "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" History is written by the vectors. --Toby > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 9 19:37:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 17:37:31 -0700 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E41CFA5.8020406@telegraphics.com.au> References: , <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com>, <4E41CFA5.8020406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E41705B.4819.1EDDF65@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2011 at 20:24, Toby Thain wrote: > >> "PIXELS!" > > > > "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" > > > History is written by the vectors. "Pixilated"? (c.f. "Mr. Deeds Goes to Town") --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 9 21:04:53 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 19:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/09/2011 07:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics >>> Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an >>> alternative name that we can use. >>> I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that >>> (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, or that >>> will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know >>> anything about computing history. >> >> "PIXELS!" > > "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" > Rasterist. Humph. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Aug 9 21:51:48 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 21:51:48 -0500 Subject: PS2Encoder Board Run In-Reply-To: <2a0875fefe9f6555f53f37aa498df1c6@localhost> References: <4E409F00.4020107@jbrain.com> <2a0875fefe9f6555f53f37aa498df1c6@localhost> Message-ID: <4E41F244.4090201@jbrain.com> On 8/9/2011 11:00 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Is that PC encodeded keys or ASCII code out? ASCII > Ben. > PS. I think a nice IBM keyboard to Ascii converter would be handy. That would be this device. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 9 22:03:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 20:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E41AA37.9040103@neurotica.com> References: <20110808104907.O77207@shell.lmi.net> <20110808115940.K77207@shell.lmi.net> <4E41AA37.9040103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110809195749.C34749@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > The original IBM PC design team couldn't find their own asses with > both hands, a funnel, and a roadmap. It was a success in the market > purely by accident. I don't think their original intentions really > carry much weight here; it was a miracle the thing worked at all, much > less sold. I disagree. No problem with the sentiment that it was a miracle that it worked at all, although the prevailing "wisdom" at the time seemed to be that parity errors could be eliminated as a problem by ceasing to implement parity. BUT, . . . 30 years ago, we agreed that no matter how bad IBM might implement the machine, that within less than a decade, computers would be in two categories: IBM and imitations of IBM. We underestimated Apple's remarkable ability to survive IBM. The speculation before the PC was bizarre! One mag said that the new machine would be switchable between emulating TRS80, Apple][, and C/M. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 9 22:09:04 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 20:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110809200837.H34749@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > If you want kids to remember it, you could go with Sponge Bob Square > Graphics. :) Sponge Bob Square Pixels From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 9 22:10:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 20:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110809200929.P34749@shell.lmi.net> > > How about ? On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Richard wrote: > Its already being used by a number of people, unfortunately. > Hint: google proposed names first :-) . . . and if we check DNS and trademark first, where's the fun in it? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 9 23:01:22 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 21:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E41C1DB.3050201@neurotica.com> References: <20110809155443.K28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C1DB.3050201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110809205850.C34749@shell.lmi.net> > > 10 years ago, a "friend" took more than a dozen PC and CX empties that I > > had that had never been refilled before, and traded them for one of each > > cartridges that had been refilled about a dozen times by drilling holes > > in them! On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > I did that for a long time. A company I worked for did that as a > service. It was messy, but profitable. One has to be work hard to > prevent plastic chips from drilling from getting into the toner > reservoir; they will ruin a drum in short order. But, those cartridges didn't NEED any holes! With a torx bit, you could disassemle it PROPERLY, clean it PROPERLY, refill it, and restore it to use. Was it REALLY that much easier to poke holes in it, instead of opening it? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 9 23:01:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 00:01:43 -0400 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E4202A7.1070301@neurotica.com> On 08/09/2011 10:04 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics >>>> Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an >>>> alternative name that we can use. >>>> I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that >>>> (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, or that >>>> will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know >>>> anything about computing history. >>> >>> "PIXELS!" >> >> "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" >> > Rasterist. Humph. ROFL!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 9 23:14:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 00:14:48 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110809205850.C34749@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110809155443.K28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C1DB.3050201@neurotica.com> <20110809205850.C34749@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E4205B8.3040108@neurotica.com> On 08/10/2011 12:01 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> 10 years ago, a "friend" took more than a dozen PC and CX empties that I >>> had that had never been refilled before, and traded them for one of each >>> cartridges that had been refilled about a dozen times by drilling holes >>> in them! > > On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I did that for a long time. A company I worked for did that as a >> service. It was messy, but profitable. One has to be work hard to >> prevent plastic chips from drilling from getting into the toner >> reservoir; they will ruin a drum in short order. > > But, those cartridges didn't NEED any holes! With a torx bit, you could > disassemle it PROPERLY, clean it PROPERLY, refill it, and restore it to > use. > > Was it REALLY that much easier to poke holes in it, instead of opening it? You know, this is activating some very dusty neurons as this was the late 1980s when we were doing this, but I don't recall there being any other way to access the toner reservoir. Sure, there were torx screws in there, but I don't remember any of them opening up the reservoir. If there had been, we'd have done it; we refilled many hundreds of CX cartridges. Dunno. *shrug* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 9 23:46:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 21:46:22 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110809195749.C34749@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E41AA37.9040103@neurotica.com>, <20110809195749.C34749@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E41AAAE.12482.2D1B12C@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2011 at 20:03, Fred Cisin wrote: > The speculation before the PC was bizarre! One mag said that the new > machine would be switchable between emulating TRS80, Apple][, and C/M. There was a lot of speculation that the new machine would be 68000 based. Shortly before the 5150 escaped, IBM came out with their rather cool CS9000 lab computer using the 68K and that just raised the anticipation. It was a letdown to discover that the 5150 was the Displaywriter Jr. When compared with the 5100, which was quite innovative, the letdown was palpable. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Aug 10 00:17:12 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 22:17:12 -0700 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E41CFA5.8020406@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com>,<4E41CFA5.8020406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: I should learn to set down my drink before reading ClassicCmp.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain [toby at telegraphics.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2011 5:24 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: museum name contest On 09/08/11 7:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/09/2011 07:30 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics >>> Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an >>> alternative name that we can use. >>> I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that >>> (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, or that >>> will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know >>> anything about computing history. >> >> "PIXELS!" > > "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" History is written by the vectors. --Toby > > -Dave > From classiccmp at crash.com Wed Aug 10 01:30:46 2011 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2011 23:30:46 -0700 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E422596.1050207@crash.com> On 08/09/2011 01:42 PM, Richard wrote: > I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that > (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, Given the size and dollar-volume of the computer gaming industry, why not: PvP! Pixels - Vectors - Polygons. Or if you want to be formal: The Museum of Pixels, Vectors, and Polygons. (I suppose you might have to add Voxels on the end, or perhaps substitute it for Vectors...) Either way a (very) weak pun on "Player versus Player..." Or leave off the Polygons and just call it The PV Museum. They don't have a television museum in or around SLC, do they? > or that > will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know > anything about computing history. Ah, well, I'm afraid it won't help on this front. Or, just add "The Bullet-Proof Tax Deductible" to the beginning of whatever name you settle on. ;) --/S/. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 02:07:44 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 04:07:44 -0300 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP References: Message-ID: <7094CF0B3B2B4C8488DBF1354CC6A84B@portajara> >> MDA and CGA cards, > Dual display? What programs support that? Autocad, most pcb cad should support From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 10 02:16:06 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:16:06 +0200 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E422596.1050207@crash.com> References: <4E422596.1050207@crash.com> Message-ID: <0caf71b9ed51927a1953068087b62d60.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> To be more in line with the trend of today, call it the 'iPvP' museum, but hurry and register the name, else some other fruit company registers it ;) Ed > On 08/09/2011 01:42 PM, Richard wrote: >> I'm open to suggestions. The point is to have a catchy name that >> (for instance) school kids will remember from their visit, > > Given the size and dollar-volume of the computer gaming industry, why > not: PvP! Pixels - Vectors - Polygons. Or if you want to be formal: > The Museum of Pixels, Vectors, and Polygons. (I suppose you might have > to add Voxels on the end, or perhaps substitute it for Vectors...) > Either way a (very) weak pun on "Player versus Player..." > > Or leave off the Polygons and just call it The PV Museum. They don't > have a television museum in or around SLC, do they? > >> or that >> will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know >> anything about computing history. > > Ah, well, I'm afraid it won't help on this front. Or, just add "The > Bullet-Proof Tax Deductible" to the beginning of whatever name you > settle on. ;) > > --/S/. > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 08:34:41 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:34:41 -0400 Subject: PCs and stuff Message-ID: > There was a lot of speculation that the new machine would be 68000 > based. ? ?Shortly before the 5150 escaped, IBM came out with their > rather cool CS9000 lab computer using the 68K and that just raised > the anticipation. The 9000 series was announced almost a year after the 5150 was (June 82 / August 81). -- Will From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 08:52:07 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:52:07 -0400 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <0caf71b9ed51927a1953068087b62d60.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <4E422596.1050207@crash.com> <0caf71b9ed51927a1953068087b62d60.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I'm fond of pixels. Pixl - Pixeland, Pixel Bin... Or just The Pixel Museum (of computer graphics) People are somewhat familiar with computers enough these days to get that is has something to do with graphics, or images. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 10 09:02:26 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 07:02:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: <4E422596.1050207@crash.com> <0caf71b9ed51927a1953068087b62d60.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Aug 2011, Jason McBrien wrote: > I'm fond of pixels. Pixl - Pixeland, Pixel Bin... Or just The Pixel Museum > (of computer graphics) > Pixelology? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 09:25:43 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:25:43 -0500 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: , <1312927492.98690.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E4294E7.1020201@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: > Probably the only thing today's kids will remember is i > - of course, then you have to deal with the wrath of Jobs. :-) And "Computer:FX" is all a bit '80s (although maybe that's no bad thing) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 09:26:03 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:26:03 -0500 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E4294FB.7030007@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics > Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an > alternative name that we can use. > > I'm open to suggestions. Huh, I had "The art of computing" stuck in my head, but I don't really like it because "The art of computing museum" just sounds stupid :-) > If your name is selected and you're in the continental US, I have a > C=64 demoscene DVD I will award to you. No genuine C64 to offer? :-) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 09:27:37 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:27:37 -0500 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E429559.9010504@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" Vectronica. ;) From doc at vaxen.net Wed Aug 10 09:40:37 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:40:37 -0500 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E429559.9010504@gmail.com> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> <4E429559.9010504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E429865.6090806@vaxen.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" > > Vectronica. ;) > Pixelation Nation Doc From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 10:32:36 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:32:36 -0500 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E429865.6090806@vaxen.net> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> <4E429559.9010504@gmail.com> <4E429865.6090806@vaxen.net> Message-ID: Nutty Pixels history emporium On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 9:40 AM, Doc wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" >>> >> >> Vectronica. ;) >> >> > Pixelation Nation > > > Doc > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 10:40:52 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:40:52 -0500 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E429865.6090806@vaxen.net> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> <4E429559.9010504@gmail.com> <4E429865.6090806@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4E42A684.3070809@gmail.com> Doc wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" >> >> Vectronica. ;) >> > > Pixelation Nation It's a shame there isn't a Space Invaders character in standard ASCII, then Richard could just call it that. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 10 10:42:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 08:42:43 -0700 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E429559.9010504@gmail.com> References: , <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com>, <4E429559.9010504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E424483.27630.45A90@cclist.sydex.com> If it's attendance you're after, I've never known the name "Free Beer" to fail... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 10 10:47:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 08:47:44 -0700 Subject: PCs and stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E4245B0.26036.8F016@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2011 at 9:34, William Donzelli wrote: > The 9000 series was announced almost a year after the 5150 was (June > 82 / August 81). Formal announcement, true. But the use of the Moto 16-bitter was leaked very early, to my recollection. AAR, the 68K was definitely in the mix of speculation. See: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/computinghistory/cs9000.html --Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 10:50:33 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 11:50:33 -0400 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: <4E422596.1050207@crash.com> <0caf71b9ed51927a1953068087b62d60.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 10:02, Gene Buckle wrote: > Pixelology? :) Pixorama? -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 10 11:32:31 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com>,<4E41CFA5.8020406@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20110810092832.S53766@shell.lmi.net> To the Vectors belong the spoils Veni, Video, Vici Bressenham's Basement CGI memories MegaPixel Museum From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 10 11:34:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:34:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E422596.1050207@crash.com> References: <4E422596.1050207@crash.com> Message-ID: <20110810093337.L53766@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Aug 2011, Steven M Jones wrote: > Or leave off the Polygons and just call it The PV Museum. Photo-Voltaic? > > or that > > will catch the eye/attention of donors who don't necessarily know > > anything about computing history. . . . and that's why you asked US! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 10 11:40:39 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 09:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <20110810092832.S53766@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com>, <4E41CFA5.8020406@telegraphics.com.au> <20110810092832.S53766@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: All Your Graphics Are Belong To History :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 10 12:34:50 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 10:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: <4E422596.1050207@crash.com> <0caf71b9ed51927a1953068087b62d60.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20110810103416.X54367@shell.lmi.net> > I'm fond of pixels. much better than PELs From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 10 12:55:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 18:55:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E412C64.10820.E462FA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 9, 11 12:47:32 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Aug 2011 at 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > They did NOT make provision for multiple FDC, although they also > > > didn't take steps to block it. > > > > The buffer to drive the DMA requrst line on the IBM FDC card is a > > 3-state drvice, whit the eneable software-controllaable. Thus you can > > disable it and allow some other device (like a second FDC) to use that > > DMA channel. > > The IBM FDC was made perfectly capable of sharing the bus with > another FDC; all that is needed is a separate range of I/O ports. Absolutely, that's waht I said. > Interrupt and DMA both can be shared. Note that a more=or-less de My point is that as the IRQ and DMA request lines are active high, the only way to share them is to drive them with 3-state buffers that can be disabled under software control when some other device wishes to use that IRQ or DMA channel. IBM kindly used such buffers on the origianl FDC card (and AFAIK all clone FDCs, even single-chip ones, did likewise). If the had not done so, having 2 FDCs in the same machine would have been a bit harder. > facto standard for secondary FDC ports (370h-378h) was well- > established early on. Most floppy controllers respond to a RESET > signal as being in a disabled state. If it's an exact clone of thr IBM one, it has to. The control signals come from a '273 latch at U17, this is cleared by the hardware reset signal. One of the outputs enables the DMA request and IRQ buffers (so these are disabled after a hrdware reset, and have to be enabled by software writing to this latch), another bit is inverted and used to reset the 765 FDC chip itself (so this chip is held in the reset state until the latch is laoded with an appropraite value). > The XT hard disk controller also used DMA channel 3 and a few network > cards also used ISA DMA. When the PC first came out, did any IBM expansion card other than the FDC use DMA? > 8-bit DMA using what amounts to the DMA controller for an 8085 gets > pretty clumsy, having to be aware of 64K physical address boundaries That;s the polite way of putting it!. IBM was even worse than some othr 8088 machines in that they only had page registers (to provide the top 4 bits of the address), one of which served for 2 channels. Of course they should have used an 8089 line Apricot did, but that's another story... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 10 13:04:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 19:04:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110809155443.K28653@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 9, 11 04:00:48 pm Message-ID: > > I've dismantled said cartridges (and put them back together), but I've > > never refilled one. What toner do you use, and where do you find it? > > I don't know. 20+ years ago, we bought toner intended for them. I've never seen such stuff over here :-( > The staff in the computer lab learned the hard way that PC and CX > cartridges were NOT the same, didn't fit the other machine, and the toner > was "of reversed polarity" I am not sure what that last bit means. Certainly at least one of the corona wires is of the opposite polarity between the printer and photocopier (that's how you get write-for-black in the printer nad write-for-white in the copier). I beleiuve the toner power is different, but I am not sure how, > anybody who wanted 4 CX machines (one of which was the Fedex model with > different specs) IIRC, the FedEx model was a silly colour (but that's just the casing parts) and had different clock crystals so that the scanner motor ran faster. I think it did 400dpi or so (as against the 300 dpi of the normal model). I suspec the only people still running such things now are those who have classic machines with the direct video interface and can't use a more modern printer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 10 13:12:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 19:12:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E4205B8.3040108@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 10, 11 00:14:48 am Message-ID: > > Was it REALLY that much easier to poke holes in it, instead of opening it? > > You know, this is activating some very dusty neurons as this was the > late 1980s when we were doing this, but I don't recall there being any > other way to access the toner reservoir. Sure, there were torx screws > in there, but I don't remember any of them opening up the reservoir. If > there had been, we'd have done it; we refilled many hundreds of CX > cartridges. Logically, there has to be a way to fill the toner reservoir, since that was done at the factory. The plastic wasn't moulded with the toner inside it :-) >From what I rememebr (and I may be mixing it up with the SX cartridge), you can get the outer cassing off with the torx screws and some plastic barbs, then the thing spits in half at the drum. One half is the waste toner collector -- which you empty [1], the other is the toner reservoir which you can somehow get inside and refill. If anyone is seriously interested, I'll dig out a cartridge and take it apart. [1] This was certainly an SX story... A friend and I took apart his SX cartridge, and decided to empty the waste toner out of it. He did so into a toilet. We then discovered that toner flats on water, and the darn stuff would not flush away. I then suggested adding a little washing-up detergent, This worked after a number of flushes, you get this odd black foam in the process... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 10 13:44:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 19:44:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Aug 9, 11 03:43:20 pm Message-ID: > > Probably the only thing today's kids will remember is > i - of course, then you have to deal with the wrath Which suggests to me 'i-Eye', but even if it's not been taken already, you'll ahve lwyers on your back... > of Jobs. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 10 14:40:38 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 12:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110810121254.O54367@shell.lmi.net> > > > > They did NOT make provision for multiple FDC, although they also > > > > didn't take steps to block it. > > > The buffer to drive the DMA requrst line on the IBM FDC card is a > > > 3-state drvice, whit the eneable software-controllaable. Thus you can > > > disable it and allow some other device (like a second FDC) to use that > > > DMA channel. > > The IBM FDC was made perfectly capable of sharing the bus with > > another FDC; all that is needed is a separate range of I/O ports. Tony: Absolutely, that's waht I said. Fred: Likewise. They didn't take steps to prevent it, but unlike the LPT and COM boards, they did not provide an "official" alternate address, BIOS support (could have been an INT1Eh parameter), nor solder pads for jumpering. > That;s the polite way of putting it!. IBM was even worse than some othr > 8088 machines in that they only had page registers (to provide the top 4 > bits of the address), one of which served for 2 channels. >From a BEGINNING programmer perspective: If your buffer for INT13h I/O (even single sector), happens to straddle one of the 64K "boundaries", then your INT13H call will fail with an error code. That was not a BUG, just one more poorly documented caveat before using INT13h. It is up to your code to find whether the memory location assigned to your program puts your buffer at risk (or just TRY IT), find another buffer location, and redo the I/O. Many commercial programs failed to do that test, often resulting in code that "tested" fine, but failed at the customer's location, depending on where in memory the program happened to get loaded. >From a USER's perspective: FORMAT was one such program! IF its buffer happened to straddle one of the boundary lines, it would FAIL, and FORMAT would proceed to report a COMPLETY TOTALLY incorrect error message, blaming the diskette. THAT is a bug. The cause might be the fault of the original design (Microsoft called it a hardware bug!), but it was FORMAT's responsibility to move the buffer, or at least correctly identify what went wrong. (just as it was SMARTDSK's responsibility to recover from a sector error in delayed writes, rather than locking up on an an unterminatable R[etry]? condition) Whether the buffer straddled the boundary could often be easily changed by adding or removing a TSR or two. Since the "experts" had no clue what was really happening, that led to much stupid incorrect journalism that concluded that certain TSRs were incompatible with FORMAT, or even in at least one case, reports that a certain TSR was NEEDED for FORMAT to work! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Aug 10 14:59:16 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:59:16 -0500 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 19:10 -0500 8/9/11, Richard wrote: >My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics >Museum" is too boring for fundraising. He wants me to come up with an >alternative name that we can use. "Pixels, Bits, and Cobwebs" -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From Brian.Michell at bruker-axs.com Wed Aug 10 15:24:45 2011 From: Brian.Michell at bruker-axs.com (Michell, Brian) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 15:24:45 -0500 Subject: collection for sale/pickup Message-ID: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180CF53CA@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> Hi all, I have taken an inventory of the things I would like to pass on etc. 1.) PDP 11/73 DECDatasystem Containing the following: a. 2X RD52; 1X RD53; 2X RL02; 1X TS05. b. 2X BA11 type Chassis, containing: i. M8190; M8067; Something unreadable; M7957; M7504; M3104; M7198; M8061: M9404 ii. M9405; M7555; M7513 c. Complete Orange wall of Docs for: i. RSX 11M PLUS V 3.0 ii. MicroPower PASCAL v2.4 iii. DATATRIEVE iv. FORTRAN 11 v. BASIC d. Software, Approx 15 RL02 Drive Cartridges and mucho tape 2.) VAXStation 4000 VLC Includes: a. Keyboard & Mouse b. 2X CD Drives and Caddies c. 2X SCSI External Storage d. 1X VR290 Monitor 3.) VXT 2000 Includes Keyboard, Monitor and Mouse 4.) Infoserver 150 5.) VT420 & Keyboard 6.) Box 'O' Qbus cards Contains: a. 3X Prototyping cards, includes some Qbus drivers b. M8189; M7606; M3104; M8639; M7676; M7676; F094; adac; M3106; M7546; M7607; M7607; EMULEX QD211 7.) VT125 Complete 8.) VT101 Complete 9.) LetterWriter 100 10.) Tektronix 4105 Complete 11.) Tektronix 4105A Complete 12.) HP 7475A Pen plotter 13.) 2X RA90 Disk Drive Units 14.) AlphServer DS10 Includes keyboard, Mouse & Disc farm (6X 4.3Gb Drives) 15.) New, In Box Qbus Modules, as follows; a. 93 08036 Music Board (never could find any info on this. It's a Qbus with phono plug outlet.) b. A026 ADC/DAC Board c. M3104 DHV11 d. M7607 Falcon Board 16.) MicroPDP11 in Deskside Box 17.) Hitachi ESDI 515-78 to go with the Emulex board. 18.) RD53 19.) MicroVAXII Includes 1X TK50; 1X RD53. Bare cassis only 20.) SCSI Storage expansion (1X TK50 & 1X Disk) 21.) 1 empty MicroPDP Chassis 22.) 1X Mini chassis (BA11) containing; a. MENTEC M90 Not sure about this, as its difficult to extract anything meaningful from the board. Definitely Mentec and definitely a J11. b. M8639; M9047; 2X Homemade I/O Boards. 23.) VAX 6000-440; Contains all the usual plus, Infoserver 1000 3X CD Drives & 2X RA90 Drives. 24.) SG Personal Iris 3D/30 including a full set of binders for IRIX All this stuff was fully operational last time I turned it on. Again, Items are for local pick up only (Madison, WI). Donations would be gratefully received but are entirely optional. I would like to keep the systems intact as much as possible. I will begin local advertising in about a week or so. If you are interested, please drop me a line at briandotcdotmichellatgmaildotcom Thanks for reading. Brian. ________________________________ The information contained in this email is confidential. It is intended solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any form of disclosure, reproduction, distribution or any action taken or refrained from in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please notify the sender immediately. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 10 15:27:40 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 13:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110810125911.X54367@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 10 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't know. 20+ years ago, we bought toner intended for them. > I've never seen such stuff over here :-( In those days, it was readily available in USA. We bought a "kit" that consisted of some toner, a torx compatible screwdrive (not made by Torx), and a single page of instructions for disassembly, clean, refill, and assembly. We bought the CX version, and the lab staff used it on PC cartridge, with a reverse video "solarized" like effect. Later, we bought the toner by itself in small bulk quantities. I have no idea what other copiers use toner that might be compatible. If you can solve THAT issue, then many copiers distribute their toner in cartridges that are little more than a plastic jar. > > The staff in the computer lab learned the hard way that PC and CX > > cartridges were NOT the same, didn't fit the other machine, and the toner > > was "of reversed polarity" > I am not sure what that last bit means. That's why I put their statement in quotes. Technically presumably totally inaccurate, but quite adequately expressive. > Certainly at least one of the > corona wires is of the opposite polarity between the printer and > photocopier (that's how you get write-for-black in the printer nad > write-for-white in the copier). I beleiuve the toner powDer is > different, > but I am not sure how, When you find out the difference, share it with us, and then we will have correct terminology, rather than "of reversed polarity". > IIRC, the FedEx model was a silly colour (but that's just the casing > parts) and had different clock crystals so that the scanner motor ran > faster. I think it did 400dpi or so (as against the 300 dpi of the normal > model). That is exactly my recollection as well. Why was it purple? I could see UPS wanting BROWN, but I don't recall Fedex obsessing over purple. > I suspec the only people still running such things now are those who have > classic machines with the direct video interface and can't use a more > modern printer. Exactly. IF any of them happen to turn up, should I flag for you: Eiconscript (imitation Postscript and HPLJ emulation, with memory for 286) JLASER (multiple versions, the "plus" model includes an interface for Canon scanner mechanism) Cordata/Corona Data Systems (software, which is probably no longer anywhere near the board) refuses to run on 286, easy to use YAFIYGI interface, and support for it (and LJ) by the Poems Font Editor DC37 ABC switch I was unable to stop the college from dumpstering the LJII (SX), which had an add-in board for JLASER support, which PROBABLY would have permitted upgrading most CX external interface to SX. SX had a very noticably better black than CX, apparently due to having a toner blob larger than (circumscribed) the addreeable box, rather than inscribed. The IIID found a happy enthusiastic home. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 10 16:29:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:29:57 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: <4E412C64.10820.E462FA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 9, 11 12:47:32 pm, Message-ID: <4E4295E5.30570.14242C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2011 at 18:55, Tony Duell wrote: > That;s the polite way of putting it!. IBM was even worse than some > othr 8088 machines in that they only had page registers (to provide > the top 4 bits of the address), one of which served for 2 channels. > > Of course they should have used an 8089 line Apricot did, but that's > another story... Remember that the 8237 DMAC furnished dual functionality--regular DMA services and also memory refresh. With an 8089 having only two DMA channels, you're forced to go to something like an 8203/8207 DRAM controller. The use of both the 8089 (and its support circuitry) and the memory controller would have offended the bean counters mightily, I suspect. (Witness the cost-cutting done on the Peanut). As far as PC-type 8-bit expansion cards using DMA, there were several. I don't know how long they were on the drawing board, so it's pretty difficult saying whether they were or weren't in the original game plan. * MFM hard disk controller (uses DMA 3) * GPIB adapter * SDLC adapter --Chuck From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 10 16:42:28 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110810125911.X54367@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1313012548.95254.YahooMailClassic@web83904.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > That is exactly my recollection as well.? Why was it > purple?? I could see > UPS wanting BROWN, but I don't recall Fedex obsessing over > purple. Purple is a major thing at FedEx. The Fed in all of the different FedEx logos is purple*. Years ago their planes were mostly purple. When I worked there, they had an initiative that encouraged going the extra mile called the Purple Promise. * The colors of the Ex indicate the operating company. The original orange is still used for express, green is for ground (and home delivery), light blue is for custom critical, red is for freight, silver/grey is for services which contains the technology and marketing that support the other operations. I forget the name of the operating company that is represented by yellow, but I do think I remember correctly that they focus on international logistics, particularly customs. BLS From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 10 16:48:15 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 22:48:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1313012895.40111.YahooMailClassic@web29615.mail.ird.yahoo.com> At 19:10 -0500 8/9/11, Richard wrote: >My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics >Museum" is too boring for fundraising.? He wants me to come up with an >alternative name that we can use. Hmm... here's a few suggestions: Pixelated Vectors Vectorized Pixel Vector and the Pixels RECOM? (REtro COmputer Museum) Binary Nation Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 10 18:31:17 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 19:31:17 -0400 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <4E42A684.3070809@gmail.com> References: <20110809163001.A28653@shell.lmi.net> <4E41C414.1030309@neurotica.com> <4E429559.9010504@gmail.com> <4E429865.6090806@vaxen.net> <4E42A684.3070809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E4314C5.2020305@telegraphics.com.au> On 10/08/11 11:40 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Doc wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> "WON'T SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE VECTORS?!" >>> >>> Vectronica. ;) >>> >> >> Pixelation Nation > > It's a shame there isn't a Space Invaders character in standard ASCII, What a great proposal for Unicode, though. :) +PacMan and ghosts. --Toby > then Richard could just call it that. > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 10 20:14:15 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 20:14:15 -0500 Subject: collection for sale/pickup In-Reply-To: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180CF53CA@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> References: <6CBB09E530A398488E07976781F692032180CF53CA@msnmail1.bruker-axs.com> Message-ID: how big is the "22.) 1X Mini chassis (BA11) containing;" be curious if it be economical to ship it here to winnipeg canada i know u said no shipping but i got enuff parts to build me a pdp 11 if i had a chasi to put the parts in On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 3:24 PM, Michell, Brian < Brian.Michell at bruker-axs.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > I have taken an inventory of the things I would like to pass on etc. > > 1.) PDP 11/73 DECDatasystem Containing the following: > > a. 2X RD52; 1X RD53; 2X RL02; 1X TS05. > > b. 2X BA11 type Chassis, containing: > > i. > M8190; M8067; Something unreadable; M7957; M7504; M3104; M7198; M8061: > M9404 > > ii. M9405; > M7555; M7513 > > c. Complete Orange wall of Docs for: > > i. RSX > 11M PLUS V 3.0 > > ii. > MicroPower PASCAL v2.4 > > iii. > DATATRIEVE > > iv. FORTRAN > 11 > > v. BASIC > > d. Software, Approx 15 RL02 Drive Cartridges and mucho tape > > 2.) VAXStation 4000 VLC Includes: > > a. Keyboard & Mouse > > b. 2X CD Drives and Caddies > > c. 2X SCSI External Storage > > d. 1X VR290 Monitor > > 3.) VXT 2000 Includes Keyboard, Monitor and Mouse > > 4.) Infoserver 150 > > 5.) VT420 & Keyboard > > 6.) Box 'O' Qbus cards Contains: > > a. 3X Prototyping cards, includes some Qbus drivers > > b. M8189; M7606; M3104; M8639; M7676; M7676; F094; adac; M3106; M7546; > M7607; M7607; EMULEX QD211 > > 7.) VT125 Complete > > 8.) VT101 Complete > > 9.) LetterWriter 100 > > 10.) Tektronix 4105 Complete > > 11.) Tektronix 4105A Complete > > 12.) HP 7475A Pen plotter > > 13.) 2X RA90 Disk Drive Units > > 14.) AlphServer DS10 Includes keyboard, Mouse & Disc farm (6X 4.3Gb Drives) > > 15.) New, In Box Qbus Modules, as follows; > > a. 93 08036 Music Board (never could find any info on this. It's a > Qbus with phono plug outlet.) > > b. A026 ADC/DAC Board > > c. M3104 DHV11 > > d. M7607 Falcon Board > > 16.) MicroPDP11 in Deskside Box > > 17.) Hitachi ESDI 515-78 to go with the Emulex board. > > 18.) RD53 > > 19.) MicroVAXII Includes 1X TK50; 1X RD53. Bare cassis only > > 20.) SCSI Storage expansion (1X TK50 & 1X Disk) > > 21.) 1 empty MicroPDP Chassis > > 22.) 1X Mini chassis (BA11) containing; > > a. MENTEC M90 Not sure about this, as its difficult to extract > anything meaningful from the board. Definitely Mentec and definitely a J11. > > b. M8639; M9047; 2X Homemade I/O Boards. > > 23.) VAX 6000-440; Contains all the usual plus, Infoserver 1000 3X CD > Drives & 2X RA90 Drives. > > 24.) SG Personal Iris 3D/30 including a full set of binders for IRIX > > All this stuff was fully operational last time I turned it on. Again, Items > are for local pick up only (Madison, WI). Donations would be gratefully > received but are entirely optional. I would like to keep the systems intact > as much as possible. I will begin local advertising in about a week or so. > > If you are interested, please drop me a line at > briandotcdotmichellatgmaildotcom Thanks for reading. > > > Brian. > > > ________________________________ > > The information contained in this email is confidential. It is intended > solely for the addressee. Access to this email by anyone else is > unauthorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any form of disclosure, > reproduction, distribution or any action taken or refrained from in reliance > on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Please notify the sender > immediately. > From spc at conman.org Wed Aug 10 20:38:18 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2011 21:38:18 -0400 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <1313012895.40111.YahooMailClassic@web29615.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <1313012895.40111.YahooMailClassic@web29615.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110811013817.GA13691@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Andrew Burton once stated: > > At 19:10 -0500 8/9/11, Richard wrote: > >My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics > >Museum" is too boring for fundraising.? He wants me to come up with an > >alternative name that we can use. > > Hmm... here's a few suggestions: > > Pixelated Vectors > Vectorized Pixel > Vector and the Pixels > RECOM? (REtro COmputer Museum) > Binary Nation My suggestion: Silicon Dreams Dreaming in Silicon -spc (Or maybe, Do Computers Dream of Electric Sheep?) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 11 01:18:41 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 07:18:41 +0100 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <20110811013817.GA13691@brevard.conman.org> References: <1313012895.40111.YahooMailClassic@web29615.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110811013817.GA13691@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <01d501cc57ee$858d3a80$90a7af80$@ntlworld.com> Yet Another Computer Museum (YACM) :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Conner > Sent: 11 August 2011 02:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: museum name contest > > It was thus said that the Great Andrew Burton once stated: > > > > At 19:10 -0500 8/9/11, Richard wrote: > > >My friend who works with non-profits tells me that "Computer Graphics > > >Museum" is too boring for fundraising.? He wants me to come up with > > >an alternative name that we can use. > > > > Hmm... here's a few suggestions: > > > > Pixelated Vectors > > Vectorized Pixel > > Vector and the Pixels > > RECOM? (REtro COmputer Museum) > > Binary Nation > > My suggestion: > > Silicon Dreams > Dreaming in Silicon > > -spc (Or maybe, Do Computers Dream of Electric Sheep?) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 11 11:44:53 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:44:53 -0700 Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences Message-ID: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> I just posted this on comp.os.cpm There is no indication other than the mastering number on the disk that they are different. Now I'm wondering how many other Walnut Creek CDROMs have deleted content. --- > Hallo, > > For the sake of redundancy, conservation and fun: > an ISO of the Walnut Creek CDROM. > Thank you. I just discovered there are TWO versions of this disk! The one you have has versions of teledisk removed, and has directories dated Jan 31, 1995 The original have directories dated Oct 25, 1994. here are the only two files that differ in 00-INDEX.TXT > TELED210.ZIP 89957 01-09-94 Disk utility that can read complete CP/M > | disks and copy them to a file to be recreated > | or transmitted. > TELED214.ZIP 139264 01-07-94 Upgrade to Teled210 disk program- See > | Teled210 for complete Manual and > | documentation. md5 of original is 42571cceef022c582f02dabb4ac68e2c md5 of 1995 version is faa8c5ba9d1184b7bfc34d999a8c42c4 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 11 12:25:41 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 10:25:41 -0700 Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Interesting question, I have several of the Walnut Creek CD-ROM's, but no idea where they might be. Most if not all are out in the garage somewhere. I really need to get organized. Zane At 9:44 AM -0700 8/11/11, Al Kossow wrote: >I just posted this on comp.os.cpm >There is no indication other than the mastering number on the disk >that they are different. > >Now I'm wondering how many other Walnut Creek CDROMs have deleted content. > >--- > >> Hallo, >> >> For the sake of redundancy, conservation and fun: >> an ISO of the Walnut Creek CDROM. >> > > >Thank you. I just discovered there are TWO versions of this disk! > >The one you have has versions of teledisk removed, and has >directories dated Jan 31, 1995 >The original have directories dated Oct 25, 1994. > >here are the only two files that differ in 00-INDEX.TXT > >> TELED210.ZIP 89957 01-09-94 Disk utility that can read complete CP/M >> | disks and copy them to a file to >>be recreated >> | or transmitted. >> TELED214.ZIP 139264 01-07-94 Upgrade to Teled210 disk program- See >> | Teled210 for complete Manual and >> | documentation. > > >md5 of original is 42571cceef022c582f02dabb4ac68e2c >md5 of 1995 version is faa8c5ba9d1184b7bfc34d999a8c42c4 -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Aug 11 13:38:36 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 11:38:36 -0700 Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E4421AC.6080603@bitsavers.org> On 8/11/11 10:25 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Interesting question, I have several of the Walnut Creek CD-ROM's, but no idea where they might be. so that it gets archived, here are some MD5's of the ones I have MD5 (199310_Simtel_MSDOS/SIMTEL_1093.iso) = fa0e31a351448b803df17e9d16429f39 MD5 (199403_Hobbes_OS2/HOBBES_0394.iso) = fa7f3c1763315d93d48b0071e1c93558 MD5 (199403_Internet_Info/INET_0394.iso) = a77f353a1677c8e0c0e273e5d4e792ff MD5 (199411_CPM/CPM_CDROM.iso) = 42571cceef022c582f02dabb4ac68e2c MD5 (199411_Linux_Yggdrasil/Yggdrasil_Linux_1194.iso) = b5b65933c23de6f6d3b14abfcf98f1b5 MD5 (199501_CDROM_Sampler/CDROM_Sampler_9501.iso) = b23fbe1166983e80405a8e94b9a0bd32 MD5 (199501_CPM/CPM_CDROM.iso) = faa8c5ba9d1184b7bfc34d999a8c42c4 MD5 (199503_Internet_Info/INET_0395.iso) = c31f122d6e1ec6be7f0418b877613852 MD5 (199504_Best_of_Walnut_Creek_CDROM/Best_of_Walnut_Creek_199504.iso) = a4aa8bda9224e5bc2b8c16ae008d6ac3 MD5 (199504_Giga_Games_2/GIGAGAMES2.iso) = 00d8313dcc151ed306f0bb1365ea51ca MD5 (199504_POV_RAY/POV_Ray.iso) = 3a642b1d46f57f20ea9cd5d4fbdcb01d MD5 (199505_Simtel_MSDOS/SIMTEL0595A.iso) = fbee4594e1d596d0e1ee715253af543c MD5 (199505_Simtel_MSDOS/SIMTEL0595B.iso) = 3a08d918302e7f31591a434c7cc0e640 MD5 (199507_TeX/TEX_0595_V1.iso) = e0db869ae5071a38fc5f2ce18353879a MD5 (199507_TeX/TEX_0595_V2.iso) = 864f0a8d236a3f4954d7d60cc2f2a23e MD5 (199508_The_Business_Software_Library/BUS_LIB95.iso) = 59dc633b8f94333d29d9e183d6d5c6e5 MD5 (199509_Simtel_Windows/Simtel_Windows_0995.iso) = 541f67fa7450bd66b7e2e9d2cc812ae0 MD5 (199510_Avalon/AVALON.iso) = 0ee12594c67ed0f5dd3bdace74330fbe MD5 (199510_Font_Garden/Font Garden_1095.iso) = 0b302e17766bbc72c3e02483a15eb107 MD5 (199511_Linux_Slackware_3.0/SLACK1195_1.iso) = 631dfae9567c9e9f34980af100539b9c MD5 (199511_Linux_Slackware_3.0/SLAK10_95_2.iso) = 5c9ed883cf1685244d0594863c6e4ffe MD5 (199602_GNU/GNU_0296.iso) = 5af203f6e24f7d6d629ed1ddc09e508c MD5 (199602_Task_Buster/Task_Buster_0296.iso) = aef3585efaea78138af00638d4d2cd9e MD5 (199602_Walnut_Creek_C_UG/CUG_296.iso) = 1774993b8a120fb9f5d0b927c805ff70 MD5 (199603_Newt_For_Windows_NT/NEWT_0396.iso) = 5e2107b87744ba7f6e6e5741ddbb6379 MD5 (199604_Perl/CPAN_0496.iso) = d2dd63618e32749ac5437aa57da465e3 MD5 (199605_BSD_Docs/BSD_DOCS.iso) = adb33000488ad8a18f6f9bbe61f53e28 MD5 (199608_Linux_Slackware/slack96_d1_0896.iso) = cc7d58178f01d8c80219575f9f4ea2ec MD5 (199608_Linux_Slackware/slack96_d2_0896.iso) = 187a321522f0842b71fa77ef75ff398d MD5 (199608_Linux_Slackware/slack96_d3_0896.iso) = aa07e28421b255902151f2f542da22ca MD5 (199608_Linux_Slackware/slack96_d4_0896.iso) = 88cc616e1c12fbcc0e56558ef9c53166 MD5 (199608_MultiMedia_CDROM/MM-CD-ROM.iso) = c12dd6875afcc46f940132cc3dca60e6 MD5 (199610_Internet_Info/INET_996.iso) = 1714609b8afd93b40b6ebccdd21a9072 MD5 (199612_Toolkit_for_Delphi/Delphi_Tlkt.iso) = e5a244cde8c9864fb2ce1ef5b88ba315 MD5 (199702_CICA/CICA2_0297.iso) = babb3b4ea08e2c5d617ada12228f79d8 MD5 (199702_CICA/CICA_0297.iso) = 22c5e535de4eec3860543f3fdfdefe9d MD5 (199703_Ada/01ada0397.iso) = 60d9f450917371a6cb1ac069eb063503 MD5 (199703_Ada/02ada0397.iso) = 74134d17107c0405050185f76627550a MD5 (199803_Simtel_MSDOS/Simtel398_1.iso) = 5ab31373f718f55d7328706da2faaf3f MD5 (199803_Simtel_MSDOS/Simtel398_2.iso) = d0ab2b0ad976a2170c5555f14e97354a MD5 (199911_Linux_Slackware_7.0/01_Slackware_7.0_Installation.iso) = 6d553749aa71683d31c3064ac32a2c1c MD5 (199911_Linux_Slackware_7.0/02_Bootable_Slackware_7.0.iso) = 5d4e971a999a818d87894bb419bc8e7b MD5 (199911_Linux_Slackware_7.0/03_Slackware_7.0_source.iso) = 42be5a88cec743ed4fd7b676eed2b25b From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 11 14:08:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:08:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E4295E5.30570.14242C7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 10, 11 02:29:57 pm Message-ID: > > Of course they should have used an 8089 line Apricot did, but that's > > another story... > > Remember that the 8237 DMAC furnished dual functionality--regular DMA > services and also memory refresh. With an 8089 having only two DMA The only reason the DMAC provided memory refresh was that there was a pseudo DMA transfer strated by one of the timer channels evey so often. By reading the RAM, it refreshed it. > channels, you're forced to go to something like an 8203/8207 DRAM > controller. The use of both the 8089 (and its support circuitry) and > the memory controller would have offended the bean counters mightily, > I suspect. (Witness the cost-cutting done on the Peanut). I have noi idea of the cost of an 8089 at the time, but th esupport circuity would have been a lot less than that needed by the 8237 (no pag register and associated logic). Yes, you'd have needed some memory refresh hardware, but countless other machines provided that without needed a DMA channel to do it (and you didn't _have_ to used a single-chip DRAM controller). Remmber that in the PC, all the DMAC did for the RAM was the refresh operation, the timing of RAS/CAS, addres multiplexing, etc was done in separate hardware. Adding a refresh counter and th eassociated logic would npt have been that much exta. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 11 13:54:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 19:54:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110810125911.X54367@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 10, 11 01:27:40 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 10 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I don't know. 20+ years ago, we bought toner intended for them. > > I've never seen such stuff over here :-( > > In those days, it was readily available in USA. We bought a "kit" that I sorted out my CX about 20 years ago, and I never remembr seeing such refil kits over here/. Perhaps I wasn't looking on the right places > > Certainly at least one of the > > corona wires is of the opposite polarity between the printer and > > photocopier (that's how you get write-for-black in the printer nad > > write-for-white in the copier). I beleiuve the toner powDer is > > different, > > but I am not sure how, > > When you find out the difference, share it with us, and then we will have > correct terminology, rather than "of reversed polarity". I will see what I can find. I have a rather itneresting book called 'Electrophotography' which covers such electrostatic processes and it may ahev some clues. It's dififcult to see why the toner would be very different for the 2 processes. The basic idea from what I rememebr goes like this : 'Fog/ the drum with ligth to discharge it Charge the drum evenly Write the image to the drum, discahrging soem bits of it. Apply chargeed toner. If the toner is charged with the same polarity as the drum, it'll be repelled from the still-chrged bits of the drum (the bits that have not received light), and will stick to the discharged areas.. If the toner has the opposite polarity to the drum, it'll stick to the still-charged areas Apply papre with a strongly-charged electrode under it to attract the toner from the drum to the paper. Melt the toner into the papepr (fusing) It;s possible the conductivity of the toner has to be different, I guess, I can't think what else it would be. > IF any of them happen to turn up, should I flag for you: > > Eiconscript (imitation Postscript and HPLJ emulation, with memory for 286) > > JLASER (multiple versions, the "plus" model includes an interface for > Canon scanner mechanism) > > Cordata/Corona Data Systems (software, which is probably no longer > anywhere near the board) refuses to run on 286, easy to use YAFIYGI > interface, and support for it (and LJ) by the Poems Font Editor > > DC37 ABC switch Those do all sound fairly interesting. But I don't think I could afford shipping (and I don't have space for) another CX printer itself. > > > > I was unable to stop the college from dumpstering the LJII (SX), which had > an add-in board for JLASER support, which PROBABLY would have permitted > upgrading most CX external interface to SX. SX had a very noticably IIRC there were 2 ways to get a CX-VDO interface (or something close to one) on an SX printer. The first was a buffer board that fitted in place of the formatter. It included things like the differnetial driver/receiver for the laser control and sync signals. This was an officia Canon product I think. Somewhere I have a scheamtic of it, it's quite simple The second was a board that fitted in the optional interface slot in an HP LJ2 and others that used the same formatter). AFAIK, this was a third-party product, and I have never seen one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 11 13:16:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 19:16:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110810121254.O54367@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 10, 11 12:40:38 pm Message-ID: [Second disk controller in an IBM PC] > Tony: Absolutely, that's waht I said. > Fred: Likewise. They didn't take steps to prevent it, but unlike the LPT > and COM boards, they did not provide an "official" alternate address, BIOS > support (could have been an INT1Eh parameter), nor solder pads for > jumpering. True. Talking of solder pads, I assume _everyone_ spotted the unneceessary vias on the original parallel (printer) card. If you cut the track between them and jumper one of the vias to another nearby via, you control th OE/ line of the data latch by the othewise unused bit of the control port, thus making it a bidirectional port. This is not docuemted, not even in th TechRef. Alas the same traces were not present on the MDA card (which has a built-in parallel port, of course). > > > > That;s the polite way of putting it!. IBM was even worse than some othr > > 8088 machines in that they only had page registers (to provide the top 4 > > bits of the address), one of which served for 2 channels. > > >From a BEGINNING programmer perspective: If your buffer for INT13h I/O > (even single sector), happens to straddle one of the 64K "boundaries", > then your INT13H call will fail with an error code. That was not a BUG, Right. I rememebr when I was directly accessing the disk controller, I would allocate a 512byte buffer (I ws handling 256 byte sectors), thus ensuring that at leat one half of the allocated area didn't cross a page boundary. I'd use the thrst half if it was OK, the scond half otherwise. > just one more poorly documented caveat before using INT13h. It is up to > your code to find whether the memory location assigned to your program > puts your buffer at risk (or just TRY IT), find another buffer location, The linux fdrawcmd ioctl() allocates its own buffer which will not cross a page bondary, and transfers the data to/from the array you pass to it (which can be anywhere). In other words th OS handles the details fro you, as it should do. > and redo the I/O. Many commercial programs failed to do that test, often > resulting in code that "tested" fine, but failed at the customer's > location, depending on where in memory the program happened to get loaded. Ouch! > > >From a USER's perspective: FORMAT was one such program! IF its buffer > happened to straddle one of the boundary lines, it would FAIL, and FORMAT > would proceed to report a COMPLETY TOTALLY incorrect error message, > blaming the diskette. THAT is a bug. The cause might be the fault of the I've never been bitten by this, but it sounds ridiculous. > original design (Microsoft called it a hardware bug!), but it was FORMAT's Well, I woill happily agree that the hardware design is a right kludge (the language I would like to use to describe it is not suitable for a public list :-)), but it is surely the program writer's responsibility to ensre the program runs on said hardare under all conditions. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 11 15:09:10 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: <4E4421AC.6080603@bitsavers.org> References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <4E4421AC.6080603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/11/11 10:25 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Interesting question, I have several of the Walnut Creek CD-ROM's, but no >> idea where they might be. > > so that it gets archived, here are some MD5's of the ones I have > > MD5 (199310_Simtel_MSDOS/SIMTEL_1093.iso) = fa0e31a351448b803df17e9d16429f39 > MD5 (199403_Hobbes_OS2/HOBBES_0394.iso) = fa7f3c1763315d93d48b0071e1c93558 > MD5 (199403_Internet_Info/INET_0394.iso) = a77f353a1677c8e0c0e273e5d4e792ff > MD5 (199411_CPM/CPM_CDROM.iso) = 42571cceef022c582f02dabb4ac68e2c It seems to me that you have the expurgated version of the CP/M disk. I just checked mine and verified that it has Teledisk. Here is the MD5 of that disk: baa1645309319074f9871002536b7d5b cpm_cdrom.iso -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 15:13:17 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:13:17 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E3E818A.17165.CBD94D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7 August 2011 20:49, Tony Duell wrote: > > It doesn't. Since nobody will pay me for my time, my time is by defintion > worthless. I am in the same boat, but recently, I have managed to get several bits of paying work. So, in the garage & attic, I have: * 1 dead Apple iMac G5 20" with a well-known motherboard capacitor problem * 1 dead Apple Mac SE/30, cause unknown, but I've bought a service manual * 1 dead IBM ThinkPad 700, due to battery leakage, that needs to be stripped down and given a good clean and checked for damage * 1 dead Acorn RISC PC and a spare motherboard, which to be honest, I suspect I can sort out myself :) Fancy having a crack at the two Macs and the "Butterfly"? Happy to pay for your time, and I'll deliver them to you. I'll buy and bring a set of replacement capacitors for the iMac. I mean, if it'll help... I also will try to sort you out with a decent fully-working tested modern PC capable of running a current Linux distro with a full GUI desktop, gratis, if you'd like. I am sure I can sort out screen, mouse, keyboard etc. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 11 15:31:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:31:50 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E443C36.2080001@neurotica.com> On 08/07/2011 07:57 PM, Jeff Jonas wrote: > My pre-PC systems (mostly Z80 CP/M) > all support 4 floppies per the original specs. > But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, the PC's "cable twist" ruined that, > limiting things to 2 floppies and 2 hard drives per controller. > Not 'till SATA have we been able to un-do that mistake :-( Huh? There have been quite a few mass storage interfaces that don't limit you in such ways. In fact, there are still quite a few right now. (sorry for the late reply, I've been on the road) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 11 15:52:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 13:52:16 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: <4E4295E5.30570.14242C7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 10, 11 02:29:57 pm, Message-ID: <4E43DE90.2269.14A2F29@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2011 at 20:08, Tony Duell wrote: > I have noi idea of the cost of an 8089 at the time, but th esupport > circuity would have been a lot less than that needed by the 8237 (no > pag register and associated logic). Yes, you'd have needed some memory > refresh hardware, but countless other machines provided that without > needed a DMA channel to do it (and you didn't _have_ to used a > single-chip DRAM controller). Remmber that in the PC, all the DMAC did > for the RAM was the refresh operation, the timing of RAS/CAS, addres > multiplexing, etc was done in separate hardware. Adding a refresh > counter and th eassociated logic would npt have been that much exta. Looking back at the 8089 datasheet, I'm not convinced that it provides much for the money. In the minimum-component "local" mode, it executes out of the 808x CPU memory space, being another contender for that resource. At 5MHz with no contention/interleaving it can transfer a byte every microsecond, best case--not much better than an 8237. The bean counters would not have been happy. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Aug 11 15:53:38 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 16:53:38 -0400 Subject: Format Question for M8639 YA (RQDX1) Message-ID: <4E444152.3050707@compsys.to> I just finished running ZRQB?? using two different RQDX1 controllers. The drive used in each case was an RD51. While each RD51 drive works correctly under the RQDX1 controller which was used to format the drive, each RD51 will not work with the other RQDX1 controller. Each RQDX1 is able to successfully use the same RX50 floppy drive. Each RQDX1 is so old that the version of the EPROMs can not be read. They look to be the same, but I don't have an EPROM reader. I always thought that any given M8639 YA controller produces the same format. Can anyone comment? This is the first time that I have ever seen an incompatibility. Any advice would be appreciated. Jerome Fine From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 19:08:46 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:08:46 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E43DE90.2269.14A2F29@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E4295E5.30570.14242C7@cclist.sydex.com> <4E43DE90.2269.14A2F29@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Looking back at the 8089 datasheet, I'm not convinced that it > provides much for the money. ?In the minimum-component "local" mode, > it executes out of the 808x CPU memory space, being another contender > for that resource. ?At 5MHz with no contention/interleaving it can > transfer a byte every microsecond, best case--not much better than an > 8237. This is the main reason why the 8089 failed in the market. For what it did, it was just too expensive. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 11 19:14:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 17:14:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110811171008.N98337@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I sorted out my CX about 20 years ago, and I never remembr seeing such > refil kits over here/. Perhaps I wasn't looking on the right places About 10 years ago, the markets around here were full of Inkjet refill kits. Now those are disappearing, along with the associated DIY carpet cleaning systems. > The second was a board that fitted in the optional interface slot in an HP > LJ2 and others that used the same formatter). AFAIK, this was a > third-party product, and I have never seen one. I believe that that was what the JLASER interface was. But Talltree is long gone. I wonder if PrinterWorks would have access to such? At least they would be the a good authority about what is/was available. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 11 19:22:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:22:30 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E447246.40805@neurotica.com> On 08/10/2011 02:12 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Was it REALLY that much easier to poke holes in it, instead of opening it? >> >> You know, this is activating some very dusty neurons as this was the >> late 1980s when we were doing this, but I don't recall there being any >> other way to access the toner reservoir. Sure, there were torx screws >> in there, but I don't remember any of them opening up the reservoir. If >> there had been, we'd have done it; we refilled many hundreds of CX >> cartridges. > > Logically, there has to be a way to fill the toner reservoir, since that > was done at the factory. The plastic wasn't moulded with the toner inside > it :-) > > From what I rememebr (and I may be mixing it up with the SX cartridge), > you can get the outer cassing off with the torx screws and some plastic > barbs, then the thing spits in half at the drum. One half is the waste > toner collector -- which you empty [1], the other is the toner reservoir > which you can somehow get inside and refill. If anyone is seriously > interested, I'll dig out a cartridge and take it apart. I don't disagree, but nevertheless, in those days, this was a pretty big business. We did a LOT of them, and so did a lot of other companies. Refill kits, complete with a drill bit and little plastic plugs, were available commercially all over the place. This was a common and widespread thing. There must've been some compelling reason to do it this way. I'll be damned if I can figure out what it was. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 11 19:23:35 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 17:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110811171741.E98337@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I woill happily agree that the hardware design is a right kludge Not being a Brit, I'd call it a WRONG kludge. > (the language I would like to use to describe it is not suitable for a > public list :-)), You would be shocked at what is considered acceptable here and not there, and vice versa. > but it is surely the program writer's responsibility to > ensre the program runs on said hardare under all conditions. The insidious aspect of it was that most of us did not understand the "inner workings" well enough to know that there could be a problem until it bit us. In my case, I was lucky enough to have been curious enough to go through all of the error return codes of INT13h, and ask myself, "what the hell is THAT about??" From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 11 19:35:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:35:08 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110811171008.N98337@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110811171008.N98337@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E44753C.8070702@neurotica.com> On 08/11/2011 08:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> I sorted out my CX about 20 years ago, and I never remembr seeing such >> refil kits over here/. Perhaps I wasn't looking on the right places > > About 10 years ago, the markets around here were full of Inkjet refill > kits. Now those are disappearing, along with the associated DIY carpet > cleaning systems. > > >> The second was a board that fitted in the optional interface slot in an HP >> LJ2 and others that used the same formatter). AFAIK, this was a >> third-party product, and I have never seen one. > > I believe that that was what the JLASER interface was. But Talltree is > long gone. I wonder if PrinterWorks would have access to such? At least > they would be the a good authority about what is/was available. I'm pretty sure the JLASER used a modified SX engine, as well. It definitely did use a big cable going from an ISA card to the printer, but they sold the card WITH the engine, which I believe was special in some way. I don't recall ever having seen them selling the ISA card + video interface card separately, i.e. without the engine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 11 19:35:30 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 17:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E447246.40805@neurotica.com> References: <4E447246.40805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110811173030.M98337@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > I don't disagree, but nevertheless, in those days, this was a pretty > big business. We did a LOT of them, and so did a lot of other > companies. Refill kits, complete with a drill bit and little plastic > plugs, were available commercially all over the place. This was a > common and widespread thing. The first kit that I saw had a torx [compatible] screwdriver. After doing it that way, I wasn't about to start poking holes. ("baby duck syndrome"?) > There must've been some compelling reason to do it this way. I'll be > damned if I can figure out what it was. Yes. You can get qo times as many done per unit of time by poking a hole instead of disassembly. And you could USUALLY get away without the additional cleaning, etc. inside. BUT, can you remember where to get some of that toner, so that Tony can rebuild cartridges? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 11 20:16:38 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 18:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E44753C.8070702@neurotica.com> References: <20110811171008.N98337@shell.lmi.net> <4E44753C.8070702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110811180652.U98337@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm pretty sure the JLASER used a modified SX engine, as well. It > definitely did use a big cable going from an ISA card to the printer, > but they sold the card WITH the engine, which I believe was special in > some way. I don't recall ever having seen them selling the ISA card + > video interface card separately, i.e. without the engine. This was a box-stock LJII from another vendor. The Jlaser was a RAM plus laser printer interface card, a big cable (DC37 for CX), and a small adapter card that fit in the back of the LJII. The LJII was still capable of switching back and forth between JLASER and "normal" HP "Centronics" PCL transparently under software control, so we had two computers cabled to it. For CX LaserJet "minus" and the like, Talltree sold some sort of adapter board (to go IN the printer?) that was switchable between JLASER and "normal" LJ HP RS232 PCL. On CX VDO units, such as Cordata, JLASER was a simple DC37 cable to the "video" input. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 11 20:24:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:24:56 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110811180652.U98337@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110811171008.N98337@shell.lmi.net> <4E44753C.8070702@neurotica.com> <20110811180652.U98337@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E4480E8.4000603@neurotica.com> On 08/11/2011 09:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I'm pretty sure the JLASER used a modified SX engine, as well. It >> definitely did use a big cable going from an ISA card to the printer, >> but they sold the card WITH the engine, which I believe was special in >> some way. I don't recall ever having seen them selling the ISA card + >> video interface card separately, i.e. without the engine. > > This was a box-stock LJII from another vendor. The Jlaser was a RAM plus > laser printer interface card, a big cable (DC37 for CX), and a small > adapter card that fit in the back of the LJII. The LJII was still capable > of switching back and forth between JLASER and "normal" HP "Centronics" > PCL transparently under software control, so we had two computers cabled > to it. For CX LaserJet "minus" and the like, Talltree sold some sort of > adapter board (to go IN the printer?) that was switchable between > JLASER and "normal" LJ HP RS232 PCL. On CX VDO units, such as Cordata, > JLASER was a simple DC37 cable to the "video" input. Yes, I remember it. At least, I think I do! ;) Is it possible there was another product that was as I described above, using a modified SX engine to achieve higher resolution (not the LJ-III style "resolution enhancement" trick) and sold as a package with ISA interface and printer? I'm 100% certain that there was one, but I am NOT 100% certain that the one I'm remembering was the JLASER. We never got one of those at my old company in the late 1980s, but we wanted one for in-house use. (My company sold and installed quite a few similar systems, mostly the one from QMS that used the raw video interface.) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Aug 11 21:04:56 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 03:04:56 +0100 Subject: Format Question for M8639 YA (RQDX1) In-Reply-To: <4E444152.3050707@compsys.to> References: <4E444152.3050707@compsys.to> Message-ID: I just searched for RQDX1 seems there were 4 versions http://manx.archivist.info/search.php?search=rqdx1&errlev=0&company=0 371119 Digital Equipment Corporation RQDX1-P 2B RQDX1 P M8639-YA,BC02D-1D,17-00285-02,17-00282,17-00286 H Q-BUS,11/VAX 371120 Digital Equipment Corporation RQDX1-M 2B RQDX1 M RQDX1 (M8639-YA) + BC02D-1D H 610QM MICROVAX 371121 Digital Equipment Corporation RQDX1-EP 2B RQDX1 EP DEC INTEGRATED RQDX1-E W/INTERNAL CABLE H RQDX1-E 371122 Digital Equipment Corporation RQDX1-E 2B RQDX1 E ADD-ON DISK ADAPTOR FOR RD52,RD51,RX50 (M7512 + BC H RQDX1 more digging required Dave Caroline On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:53 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I just finished running ZRQB?? using two different RQDX1 > controllers. ?The drive used in each case was an RD51. > > While each RD51 drive works correctly under the RQDX1 > controller which was used to format the drive, each RD51 > will not work with the other RQDX1 controller. ?Each RQDX1 > is able to successfully use the same RX50 floppy drive. > > Each RQDX1 is so old that the version of the EPROMs > can not be read. ?They look to be the same, but I don't > have an EPROM reader. > > I always thought that any given M8639 YA controller > produces the same format. ?Can anyone comment? ?This > is the first time that I have ever seen an incompatibility. > > Any advice would be appreciated. > > Jerome Fine > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 23:45:49 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday to Steve Wosniak and the IBM PC Message-ID: <1313124349.58401.YahooMailClassic@web113508.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Steve is 61 The IBM PC is 30 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 11 23:47:18 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2011 21:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Birthday (Corrected) Message-ID: <1313124438.50998.YahooMailClassic@web113518.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Happy belated birthday to Steve who on Aug 11 became 61 Happy Birthday to the IBM PC who on Aug 12 became 30.. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 12 03:23:21 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:23:21 +0100 Subject: Format Question for M8639 YA (RQDX1) In-Reply-To: References: <4E444152.3050707@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4E44E2F9.9010103@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/08/2011 03:04, Dave Caroline wrote: > I just searched for RQDX1 seems there were 4 versions > http://manx.archivist.info/search.php?search=rqdx1&errlev=0&company=0 > 371121 > Digital Equipment Corporation > RQDX1-EP > 2B > RQDX1 > EP > DEC INTEGRATED RQDX1-E W/INTERNAL CABLE > H > RQDX1-E > > > 371122 > Digital Equipment Corporation > RQDX1-E > 2B > RQDX1 > E > ADD-ON DISK ADAPTOR FOR RD52,RD51,RX50 (M7512 + BC > H > RQDX1 The last two aren't RQDX1 controllers, they're the RQDX1E extender (M7512), which is a passive card that breaks out signals in order to use drives in a BA23 expansion box. Similar to an RQDXE, but specifically designed for RQDX1. There were three versions of the RQDX1 board. The original, RQDX1 M8369, got a firmware update that made it an M8639-YA, to handle more drive types. The only difference is the firmware, and there were a few versions of that. Then there's an M8639-YB, which is called RQDX2, and which has some ECOs to remove some of the restrictions on bus position (it handles BIAK and BDMG). The RQDX2 firmware versions use slightly different error codes on the LEDs and handle at least one of the drive interface signals differently. Different firmware again (more drive types) but you can mix and match the firmware between boards, including putting RQDX2 firmware in RQDX1 to get more drive support (that was officially supported by DEC). However there are some restrictions. Later firmware changed the structure of the RCT/FCT tables that keep drive config info, and which are written to the drive. If you take a drive formatted on an early version, and put it on a later version, the controller should in most cases cope. Unfortunately going the other way doesn't work in every case, because the later firmwares write slightly larger tables to the drive, and then early firmware doesn't understand it. One of the "RQDX1/2 Survival Tips" on STARS listed the first 6 versions of firmware, and mentions that some firmware will rewrite the tables if you move a drive from old to new. So a drive that used to work on one controller gets moved, still works, but then won't work if moved back. If you have a look at my ROMlist page http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ROMlist you'll find some very brief notes. 23-188E5 23-189E5 M8639-YB RQDX2, issue 2 RD51,RD52,RD53,RX50 support Firmware V10.0E 23-178E5 23-179E5 M8639-YB RQDX2, issue 1 RD51,RD52,RD53,RX50 support Firmware V10.0D 23-172E5 23-173E5 M8639-YA RQDX1, issue 3 RD51,RD52,RX50 support Firmware V9.4E 23-042E5 23-043E5 M8639-YA RQDX1, issue 2 RD51,RD52,RX50 support Firmware V9.0 23-264E4 23-265E4 M8639 RQDX1, issue 1a RD51,RX50 support only Firmware V8.0 23-238E4 23-239E4 M8639 listed as RQDX1 V7.0, but apparently a misprint? those numbers used for KDJ11-BE The different versions of firmware also use different sniffer boots to try to work out what drive is attached. Pain in the proverbial, that was. I have drives that will work and format on one version but not another (later versions are more picky about what they'll recognise as an RD51, for example). I spent quite a while around 1990 playing with firmware and different (non-DEC) drives (HDD and floppy), and I have several versions in my ROM list page. I even exchanged some email with one of the firmware designers, but I can't remember the details -- just that the sniffer boots got more complex as time went on. As an aside, while digging through old notes and archives to check what I wrote, I found Note 93 on EISNER from 1988 that describes how to jumper two RD5x drives in a BA23. Note 526 as well. Two RD31/RD32 was actually a supported config. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From david at cantrell.org.uk Fri Aug 12 04:28:02 2011 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:28:02 +0100 Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110812092801.GA23992@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 09:44:53AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > Thank you. I just discovered there are TWO versions of this disk! Make that three. > here are the only two files that differ in 00-INDEX.TXT > > TELED210.ZIP 89957 01-09-94 Disk utility that can read complete C... > > TELED214.ZIP 139264 01-07-94 Upgrade to Teled210 disk program- See... > md5 of original is 42571cceef022c582f02dabb4ac68e2c > md5 of 1995 version is faa8c5ba9d1184b7bfc34d999a8c42c4 plough:walnut-creek-CDROM david$ md5sum 00-INDEX.TXT 516420e34e8129e430a6783ce216d424 00-INDEX.TXT I've put mine at http://hetzner.barnyard.co.uk/walnut-creek-00-index.txt if you'd like to compare it to yours. I don't have reliable dates for it though, as I don't think they would have been preserved when I copied all the data from CD onto a hard disk. I'm not even sure if I still have the CD. -- David Cantrell | top google result for "internet beard fetish club" Compromise: n: lowering my standards so you can meet them From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Aug 12 08:54:25 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:54:25 -0400 Subject: Format Question for M8639 YA (RQDX1) In-Reply-To: <4E44E2F9.9010103@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E444152.3050707@compsys.to> <4E44E2F9.9010103@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E453091.5020805@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > >On 12/08/2011 03:04, Dave Caroline wrote: > >> I just searched for RQDX1 seems there were 4 versions >> http://manx.archivist.info/search.php?search=rqdx1&errlev=0&company=0 >> 371121 >> Digital Equipment Corporation >> RQDX1-EP >> 2B >> RQDX1 >> EP >> DEC INTEGRATED RQDX1-E W/INTERNAL CABLE >> H >> RQDX1-E >> >> >> 371122 >> Digital Equipment Corporation >> RQDX1-E >> 2B >> RQDX1 >> E >> ADD-ON DISK ADAPTOR FOR RD52,RD51,RX50 (M7512 + BC >> H >> RQDX1 > > > The last two aren't RQDX1 controllers, they're the RQDX1E extender > (M7512), which is a passive card that breaks out signals in order to > use drives in a BA23 expansion box. Similar to an RQDXE, but > specifically designed for RQDX1. > > There were three versions of the RQDX1 board. The original, RQDX1 > M8369, got a firmware update that made it an M8639-YA, to handle more > drive types. The only difference is the firmware, and there were a > few versions of that. Then there's an M8639-YB, which is called RQDX2, > and which has some ECOs to remove some of the restrictions on bus > position (it handles BIAK and BDMG). The RQDX2 firmware versions use > slightly different error codes on the LEDs and handle at least one of > the drive interface signals differently. Different firmware again > (more drive types) but you can mix and match the firmware between > boards, including putting RQDX2 firmware in RQDX1 to get more drive > support (that was officially supported by DEC). > > However there are some restrictions. Later firmware changed the > structure of the RCT/FCT tables that keep drive config info, and which > are written to the drive. If you take a drive formatted on an early > version, and put it on a later version, the controller should in most > cases cope. Unfortunately going the other way doesn't work in every > case, because the later firmwares write slightly larger tables to the > drive, and then early firmware doesn't understand it. One of the > "RQDX1/2 Survival Tips" on STARS listed the first 6 versions of > firmware, and mentions that some firmware will rewrite the tables if > you move a drive from old to new. So a drive that used to work on one > controller gets moved, still works, but then won't work if moved back. > > If you have a look at my ROMlist page > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ROMlist > you'll find some very brief notes. > > 23-188E5 23-189E5 M8639-YB RQDX2, issue 2 > RD51,RD52,RD53,RX50 support > Firmware V10.0E > > 23-178E5 23-179E5 M8639-YB RQDX2, issue 1 > RD51,RD52,RD53,RX50 support > Firmware V10.0D > > 23-172E5 23-173E5 M8639-YA RQDX1, issue 3 > RD51,RD52,RX50 support > Firmware V9.4E > > 23-042E5 23-043E5 M8639-YA RQDX1, issue 2 > RD51,RD52,RX50 support > Firmware V9.0 > > 23-264E4 23-265E4 M8639 RQDX1, issue 1a > RD51,RX50 support only > Firmware V8.0 > > 23-238E4 23-239E4 M8639 listed as RQDX1 V7.0, > but apparently a misprint? > those numbers used for KDJ11-BE > > The different versions of firmware also use different sniffer boots to > try to work out what drive is attached. Pain in the proverbial, that > was. I have drives that will work and format on one version but not > another (later versions are more picky about what they'll recognise as > an RD51, for example). > > I spent quite a while around 1990 playing with firmware and different > (non-DEC) drives (HDD and floppy), and I have several versions in my > ROM list page. I even exchanged some email with one of the firmware > designers, but I can't remember the details -- just that the sniffer > boots got more complex as time went on. > > As an aside, while digging through old notes and archives to check > what I wrote, I found Note 93 on EISNER from 1988 that describes how > to jumper two RD5x drives in a BA23. Note 526 as well. Two RD31/RD32 > was actually a supported config. To perhaps clarify the situation a bit (and maybe also add to the confusion, I have additional information. I found a third M8639 YA controller which acts somewhat differently. I list all three boards: (a) Has three additional serial numbers and / or stickers on the non- components side which might lead me to believe that this board has been upgraded (field or otherwise) (b) A visual inspection suggests that boards (b) ... (c) and (c) are the same HOWEVER: (a) An RD51 drive formatted on this board can't be used by (b) or (c) (b) An RD51 drive formatted on this board can't be used by (a), BUT runs on (c) (c) An RD51 drive formatted on this board can't be used by (a) or (b) In addition, I formatted an RD52 drive on (c) which I will not try to format again on (a) or (b) AND which does not run on (a) or (b). That was expected in any case since the RD51 formatted on (c) will not run on (a) or (b). In short, without the ability to read the EPROMs and figure out which version, the likely conclusion, based on the testing and the above information, is that: (a) Issue 1a (b) Issue 2 (c) Issue 3 The key point in all of the testing and the information very kindly supplied by Pete Turnbull is that it is not possible to depend on being able to use an M8639 YA with an RD51 drive formatted on a different M8639 YA. If it does run, great. BUT, before you test the drive, WRITE PROTECT the drive so that it can't be damaged. BETTER, make a backup of the drive and VERIFY the contents against the backup BEFORE you make any changes. As for using two RD5n drives on a BA23 box, there is my own version of a short 10-pin cable that I inserted in the 10-pin cable which leads to a 4 button front panel on a BA23 box. The DEC upgrade is the 6 button front panel on the BA23 which specifically supports 2 RD5n drives along with 2 floppy drives (although the LEDs for WRITE PROTECT status on the floppy media are no longer present). My version of the 10-pin cable to the front panel is inserted as a female 10-pin header into the backplane and the male 10-pin header receives the 10-pin female header normally inserted into the backplane. This allows the fix to be temporary and removed without damage to the original wiring. The short 10-pin cable has wires 5 and 6 cut at the male header. On the female side of the header, wire 5 is connected to wire 1 (red wire) and wire 6 is connected to wire 2. This allows BOTH drives to be handled in the same manner. Usually, both drives are SELECTED. It is possible to WRITE PROTECT both drives from the non-protected state (as far as I can remember - but there may be a delay of a read or two before that happens). Going from WRITE PROTECT to non-protected might require a boot - I can't remember at this point. Since I have ONE 6 button front panel, I no longer have to experiment. Pete, it would be interesting if you could provide a copy of Notes 93 and 526 or at least a valid link to that information. If there are any additional questions, please ask. If there is any additional information, it would be appreciated. Jerome Fine From david at classiccomputing.com Fri Aug 12 09:14:30 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:14:30 -0500 Subject: Computer History Book project Message-ID: <43067120f80beae387c6ad27e0c1f9ed.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> OK, my Kickstarter campaign is a great success, but it's coming upon it's end. If you would like to pre-purchase a special Kickstarter edition, then please check out - http://t.co/8iSzNKF Your welcome to freely read the entire first issue of the zine "Historically Brewed" here - http://www.classiccomputing.com/hb.html Thanks! Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast From vintagecoder at aol.com Fri Aug 12 09:40:55 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 14:40:55 +0000 Subject: Solaris 10 update 10 is available Message-ID: <201108121441.p7CEehC8004729@ims-m12.mx.aol.com> Don't everybody grab it now until my downloads finish! -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Can't find: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris (Sparc) | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 Intel and Solaris 10 Sparc | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 12 10:19:29 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:19:29 -0600 Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: <20110812092801.GA23992@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <20110812092801.GA23992@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <20110812092801.GA23992 at bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, David Cantrell writes: > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 09:44:53AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Thank you. I just discovered there are TWO versions of this disk! > > Make that three. > > > here are the only two files that differ in 00-INDEX.TXT > > > TELED210.ZIP 89957 01-09-94 Disk utility that can read complete C... > > > TELED214.ZIP 139264 01-07-94 Upgrade to Teled210 disk program- See... > > md5 of original is 42571cceef022c582f02dabb4ac68e2c > > md5 of 1995 version is faa8c5ba9d1184b7bfc34d999a8c42c4 > > plough:walnut-creek-CDROM david$ md5sum 00-INDEX.TXT > 516420e34e8129e430a6783ce216d424 00-INDEX.TXT You don't say explicitly, but this output implies that this is the MD5 of the index text file, whereas others were posting the MD5 of the disc ISO. Am I wrong or confused? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Aug 12 10:32:11 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 17:32:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Solaris 10 update 10 is available [OT] In-Reply-To: <201108121441.p7CEehC8004729@ims-m12.mx.aol.com> References: <201108121441.p7CEehC8004729@ims-m12.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Aug 2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Don't everybody grab it now until my downloads finish! Still waiting for Solaris 11 and perhaps silently migrating to FreeBSD in the future (ZFS is a must-have nowadays). | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | Hmm, I could need a VM/SP Rel.5 Starter System tape image in order to install my VMSUP distribution. Christian From vintagecoder at aol.com Fri Aug 12 10:35:23 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 15:35:23 +0000 Subject: Solaris 10 update 10 is available [OT] Message-ID: <1794029717-1313163319-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-407183968-@b2.c1.bise3.blackberry> Sign up for the yahoo Hercules VM group. They will probably have what you need. Also google or scroogle for Bob Abeles, he is the guy that got the VM distribution from IBM packaged, IIRC. ------Original Message------ From: Christian Corti Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Solaris 10 update 10 is available [OT] Sent: 12 Aug 2011 15:32 On Fri, 12 Aug 2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Don't everybody grab it now until my downloads finish! Still waiting for Solaris 11 and perhaps silently migrating to FreeBSD in the future (ZFS is a must-have nowadays). | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | Hmm, I could need a VM/SP Rel.5 Starter System tape image in order to install my VMSUP distribution. Christian From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 12 11:25:51 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: <20110812092801.GA23992@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <20110812092801.GA23992@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110812091414.Y32691@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 12 Aug 2011, David Cantrell wrote: > I don't have reliable dates for it though, as I don't think they would > have been preserved when I copied all the data from CD onto a hard disk. > I'm not even sure if I still have the CD. Depends on how you copied it. A "file COPY", including most OS COPY programs should preserve the file date. BUT, if you use some sort of transfer utility, including file transfers over a communications port, then it is likely to create a new file, copy the content into it, and thus give you the date of transfer. From shumaker at att.net Fri Aug 12 11:54:13 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:54:13 -0700 Subject: First IBM PC Commercial In-Reply-To: <1312895576.85372.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1312895576.85372.YahooMailClassic@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E455AB5.4010103@att.net> this just got posted on Tech Republic: http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/hiner/engineer-of-original-ibm-pc-declares-end-of-pc-era/8924?tag=nl.e101 scroll down about halfway to something labeled "1981 Marketing Video for IBM PC" - it's even downloadable steve On 8/9/2011 6:12 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > Thank you but sadly that is not what I am looking for.. > > I will just have to use the one in game trailers... > > > They allow you to embed their videos on your blog. > > --- On Mon, 8/8/11, John Robertson wrote: > >> Is this what you are looking for? >> >> http://www.ibm.com/ibm100/us/en/icons/personalcomputer/ >> >> John :-#)# >> >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 12 12:01:11 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:01:11 -0700 Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <20110812092801.GA23992@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <4E455C57.1040400@bitsavers.org> On 8/12/11 8:19 AM, Richard wrote: > You don't say explicitly, but this output implies that this is the MD5 > of the index text file, whereas others were posting the MD5 of the > disc ISO. > > Am I wrong or confused? The postings from me and david were for the ISO images I've asked David to send me a copy of his ISO so I can compare them. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 12:11:34 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: First IBM PC Commercial In-Reply-To: <4E455AB5.4010103@att.net> Message-ID: <1313169094.48503.YahooMailClassic@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thanks.. I already put it together last night.. http://8bitaficionado.com/2011/08/11/august-12-2011-the-ibm-5150-is-now-30/ I found videos from CNET & Gametrailers.. They allow you to embed in your own blog. There is also a video from IBM and I start it at that point. My fav is the one from lazy gamer... It's rather humorous. --- On Fri, 8/12/11, steve shumaker wrote: > this just got posted on Tech > Republic: > > http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/hiner/engineer-of-original-ibm-pc-declares-end-of-pc-era/8924?tag=nl.e101 > ? scroll down about halfway to something labeled "1981 > Marketing Video > for IBM PC" - it's even downloadable > > > steve From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 12 13:03:26 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:03:26 -0600 Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: <4E455C57.1040400@bitsavers.org> References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <20110812092801.GA23992@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <4E455C57.1040400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E456AEE.9080907@brouhaha.com> Al Kossow wrote: > The postings from me and david were for the ISO images > I've asked David to send me a copy of his ISO so I can compare them. Depending on how you create an ISO image from a CD, you may get some extraneous blocks (usually zeros) after the actual ISO filesystem. In particular, this happens if you just do something like dd if=/dev/sr0 of=foo.iso There is a utility isosize which will tell you the actual length of the filesystem in either bytes or blocks, so that you can truncate or copy it appropriately. For instance, dd if=/dev/sr0 of=/foo.iso bs=2048 count=`isosize -d 2048 /dev/sr0` From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 12 12:39:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:39:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Aug 11, 11 09:13:17 pm Message-ID: > > On 7 August 2011 20:49, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > It doesn't. Since nobody will pay me for my time, my time is by definti= > on > > worthless. > > I am in the same boat, but recently, I have managed to get several > bits of paying work. Unfortunately, I've been informed by the powers-that-be that while it is perfectly legal for me to use my workshop for my hobby, if I make money using it, it's a business and I have to meet all sorts of safety regualtions, such as fitting guards to machine tools, fume estraction equipment to the soldring iron, etc. Needless to say this would cost me a lot more that I could evr make from doing such jobs, so while I'll hapily help you fix your machines, I cannot accept payment for it. > > So, in the garage & attic, I have: > > * 1 dead Apple iMac G5 20" with a well-known motherboard capacitor proble= > m Do you know which capactiros are involved? Do you have replacements (or at least know what they should be)? > * 1 dead Apple Mac SE/30, cause unknown, but I've bought a service manual I doubt that's what I'd call a 'service manual' but I can take a look at the machine anyway... > * 1 dead IBM ThinkPad 700, due to battery leakage, that needs to be > stripped down and given a good clean and checked for damage OK... > * 1 dead Acorn RISC PC and a spare motherboard, which to be honest, I > suspect I can sort out myself :) Pitty, that's the only one I have a schematic for. > > Fancy having a crack at the two Macs and the "Butterfly"? Happy to pay > for your time, and I'll deliver them to you. I'll buy and bring a set > of replacement capacitors for the iMac. Quite possibly, but as I said, there'll be no charge. Alternatively I can bring a small-ish toolkit and test gear to you and at least fix the easier machines, and get some idea what needs to be done ot the others. Let me know... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 12 12:50:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:50:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110811171741.E98337@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 11, 11 05:23:35 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, I woill happily agree that the hardware design is a right kludge > > Not being a Brit, I'd call it a WRONG kludge. Ah, but is a 'wrong kludge' something that's not a kludge and therefore a good design ? > > but it is surely the program writer's responsibility to > > ensre the program runs on said hardare under all conditions. > > The insidious aspect of it was that most of us did not understand the > "inner workings" well enough to know that there could be a problem until > it bit us. In my case, I was lucky enough to have been curious enough to > go through all of the error return codes of INT13h, and ask myself, "what > the hell is THAT about??" > Err, yes... Anotehr good reason to read the TechRef from cover to cover. IIRC, one of the INTs (the serial port one) had a bug in early BIOS versions. Insted of settign the MSB of the return code by loadign a register with 0x80, it loaded said register with 80 (decimal). ARGH! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 12 13:18:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 19:18:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110811171008.N98337@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 11, 11 05:14:57 pm Message-ID: > > The second was a board that fitted in the optional interface slot in an HP > > LJ2 and others that used the same formatter). AFAIK, this was a > > third-party product, and I have never seen one. > > I believe that that was what the JLASER interface was. But Talltree is > long gone. I wonder if PrinterWorks would have access to such? At least > they would be the a good authority about what is/was available. I beleive that's where I heard about the CX-VDO interfce card that wrnt in ther option slot of an LJ2 or similar. The official one -- the one that replaces the formatter -- I have seen i nthe flesh. It was in a friend's printer (which he used with an Acorn Archimedes) that I had to repair. I had it on the bench for long enough to trace out the schematic of the interface board, but I couldn;t get it near the PERQ to see if it would work on that machine. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 12 14:39:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 12:39:44 -0700 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: <20110811171741.E98337@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 11, 11 05:23:35 pm, Message-ID: <4E451F10.31990.F3B8E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2011 at 18:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > The insidious aspect of it was that most of us did not understand > > the "inner workings" well enough to know that there could be a > > problem until it bit us. In my case, I was lucky enough to have > > been curious enough to go through all of the error return codes of > > INT13h, and ask myself, "what the hell is THAT about??" > > > Err, yes... Anotehr good reason to read the TechRef from cover to > cover. Things get more complicated when later (e.g. Win NT...) MS operating systems are used. Not having a Microsoft-conforming DOS boot sector results in a "General Failure" error from the driver, even when the virtualized INT 13H services are used. Note that the floppy in question can be perfectly readable otherwise. Another Microsoft abomination was the volume-tracking driver in Win95- -it would attempt to rewrite the boot sector of any floppy being read or written. Really smart planning there. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Aug 12 15:15:34 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <4E4421AC.6080603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 11 Aug 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > >> On 8/11/11 10:25 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Interesting question, I have several of the Walnut Creek CD-ROM's, but no >>> idea where they might be. >> >> so that it gets archived, here are some MD5's of the ones I have >> >> MD5 (199310_Simtel_MSDOS/SIMTEL_1093.iso) = >> fa0e31a351448b803df17e9d16429f39 >> MD5 (199403_Hobbes_OS2/HOBBES_0394.iso) = fa7f3c1763315d93d48b0071e1c93558 >> MD5 (199403_Internet_Info/INET_0394.iso) = a77f353a1677c8e0c0e273e5d4e792ff >> MD5 (199411_CPM/CPM_CDROM.iso) = 42571cceef022c582f02dabb4ac68e2c > > It seems to me that you have the expurgated version of the CP/M disk. I just > checked mine and verified that it has Teledisk. Here is the MD5 of that > disk: > > baa1645309319074f9871002536b7d5b cpm_cdrom.iso It didn't occur to me to get the true size of the image. I used "dd if=/dev/sr0 of=foo.iso". Here is the MD5 of the image resulting from this command: dd if=cpm_cdrom.iso of=fixed.iso bs=2048 count=`/sbin/isosize -d 2048 cpm_cdrom.iso` 42571cceef022c582f02dabb4ac68e2c fixed.iso also: $ ls -l cpm_cdrom.iso fixed.iso -r--r--r-- 1 dave dave 679882752 May 9 2006 cpm_cdrom.iso -rw-r--r-- 1 dave dave 665600000 Aug 12 12:59 fixed.iso -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Aug 12 20:03:46 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors Message-ID: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). Thanks- Steven Stengel http://oldcomputers.net From feedle at feedle.net Fri Aug 12 22:22:31 2011 From: feedle at feedle.net (Archturiat Baumann) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 20:22:31 -0700 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Aug 12, 2011, at 6:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: > Hi, > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net > I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. I don't know if you saw me raise my hand, but I'd be willing to drive anywhere between Portland/Seattle and western Montana/Idaho for stuff.. From shumaker at att.net Fri Aug 12 23:18:10 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 21:18:10 -0700 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E45FB02.50107@att.net> No idea who you have signed up on the west coast but I'm in the San Francisco Bay area and could acquire items in CA and OR if need be. Steve Shumaker Boulder Creek, CA On 8/12/2011 6:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: > Hi, > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net > I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. > > Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > Thanks- > Steven Stengel > http://oldcomputers.net > > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 23:25:05 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 23:25:05 -0500 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <4E45FB02.50107@att.net> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E45FB02.50107@att.net> Message-ID: what about winnipeg canada? On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:18 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > No idea who you have signed up on the west coast but I'm in the San > Francisco Bay area and could acquire items in CA and OR if need be. > > Steve Shumaker > Boulder Creek, CA > > > On 8/12/2011 6:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: > >> Hi, >> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net >> I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but >> most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. >> >> A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these >> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! >> >> But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered >> pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until >> the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. >> >> Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you >> some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). >> >> Thanks- >> Steven Stengel >> http://oldcomputers.net >> >> >> >> >> > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 12 23:25:31 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 23:25:31 -0500 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E45FB02.50107@att.net> Message-ID: also have you contacted any of the hacker spaces? On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what about winnipeg canada? > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:18 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > >> No idea who you have signed up on the west coast but I'm in the San >> Francisco Bay area and could acquire items in CA and OR if need be. >> >> Steve Shumaker >> Boulder Creek, CA >> >> >> On 8/12/2011 6:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net >>> I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but >>> most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. >>> >>> A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these >>> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! >>> >>> But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered >>> pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until >>> the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. >>> >>> Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you >>> some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). >>> >>> Thanks- >>> Steven Stengel >>> http://oldcomputers.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 00:32:27 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 22:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1313213547.73646.YahooMailClassic@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have Ben Strewens in Wininpeg, I'll add you as well, if desired. I don't know where else to post this request. Please recommend, or forward it if possible! Thanks- Steven Stengel http://oldcomputers.net --- On Fri, 8/12/11, Adrian Stoness wrote: > From: Adrian Stoness > Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, August 12, 2011, 9:25 PM > also have you contacted any of the > hacker spaces? > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > what about winnipeg canada? > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:18 PM, steve shumaker > > wrote: > > > >> No idea who you have signed up on the west coast > but I'm in the San > >> Francisco Bay area and could acquire items in CA > and OR if need be. > >> > >> Steve Shumaker > >> Boulder Creek, CA > >> > >> > >> On 8/12/2011 6:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: > >> > >>> Hi, > >>> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net > >>> I get a lot of old computer systems offered to > me for cheap or free, but > >>> most I don't want - too big, or too far away > to pay shipping. > >>> > >>> A while back I asked for other collectors who > would be receptive to these > >>> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have > signed-up so far! > >>> > >>> But entire parts of the US are still open - > the East coast is covered > >>> pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River > these is almost no one until > >>> the coast.? I've got Nathan in Iowa, > Richard in SLC, but that's about it. > >>> > >>> Send me your name, email, and what you > collect, and I'll try to get you > >>> some good stuff (some people got some REALLY > good stuff). > >>> > >>> Thanks- > >>> Steven Stengel > >>> http://oldcomputers.net > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 13 00:42:33 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2011 22:42:33 -0700 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 6:03 PM -0700 8/12/11, steven stengel wrote: >Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get >you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). You realize that sounds a bit like a threat! ;-) Personally I'm on the other side of the fence. I have to much gear already. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 02:10:16 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 00:10:16 -0700 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >> Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you >> some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). I have replied by private email to Steven but felt I should mention to the list I have experience in shipping and moving computers up to and including IBM mainframes. I am a retired secondary market computer dealer from Portland Oregon in the 1990s. I am available to help move and ship computers and peripherals to anywhere in the world (they can legally be shipped). I specialize in packing for survival including terminals. I collect Intel Multibus 1, Tektronix, Xerox, CPM & MPM, Apple, some DEC, HP calculators/computers and more. Would love to set up a museum or some way to display my collection. Have helped fill many a collection around the world. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 13 02:47:13 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:47:13 +0100 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003101cc598d$387c9010$a975b030$@ntlworld.com> Do you ever get asked about machines in Europe? Would it be worth extending the scope to cover Europe? If so I am in the UK. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel > Sent: 13 August 2011 02:04 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors > > Hi, > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of old computer systems > offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want - too big, or too far > away to pay shipping. > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these > orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered pretty well, > but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. I've > got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. > > Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you some > good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > Thanks- > Steven Stengel > http://oldcomputers.net From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 13 02:50:45 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:50:45 +0100 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003201cc598d$b6e82630$24b87290$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paxton Hoag > Sent: 13 August 2011 08:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors > > >> Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get > >> you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > > I have replied by private email to Steven but felt I should mention to the list I > have experience in shipping and moving computers up to and including IBM > mainframes. I am a retired secondary market computer dealer from Portland > Oregon in the 1990s. I am available to help move and ship computers and > peripherals to anywhere in the world (they can legally be shipped). > > I specialize in packing for survival including terminals. I have been told on a number of occasions that VT100s do not ship well, they are also of a size and weight that seems to put shipping them to me in the UK out of my range. With your experience, is there a way to ship one of these terminals from the US to the UK safely and economically? > > I collect Intel Multibus 1, Tektronix, Xerox, CPM & MPM, Apple, some DEC, HP > calculators/computers and more. Would love to set up a museum or some > way to display my collection. > > Have helped fill many a collection around the world. > > Paxton > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 02:53:06 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:53:06 +0100 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <003101cc598d$387c9010$a975b030$@ntlworld.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <003101cc598d$387c9010$a975b030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Im in the UK too East Midlands Dave Caroline On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Do you ever get asked about machines in Europe? Would it be worth extending > the scope to cover Europe? If so I am in the UK. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel >> Sent: 13 August 2011 02:04 >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors >> >> Hi, >> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of old computer > systems >> offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want - too big, or too > far >> away to pay shipping. >> >> A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these >> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! >> >> But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered > pretty well, >> but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. > I've >> got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. >> >> Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you > some >> good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). >> >> Thanks- >> Steven Stengel >> http://oldcomputers.net > > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 03:01:29 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 01:01:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <003101cc598d$387c9010$a975b030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1313222489.68826.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have 14 people in Europe. You are on the list as NW UK. --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > From: Rob Jarratt > Subject: RE: WANTED: More regional collectors > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" , cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 12:47 AM > Do you ever get asked about machines > in Europe? Would it be worth extending > the scope to cover Europe? If so I am in the UK. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of steven stengel > > Sent: 13 August 2011 02:04 > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors > > > > Hi, > > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of > old computer > systems > > offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want > - too big, or too > far > > away to pay shipping. > > > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be > receptive to these > > orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so > far! > > > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East > coast is covered > pretty well, > > but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no > one until the coast. > I've > > got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about > it. > > > > Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and > I'll try to get you > some > > good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > > > Thanks- > > Steven Stengel > > http://oldcomputers.net > > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 03:03:40 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 01:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1313222620.59995.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I will add you. Everyone who replies to me will be added, whether or not I respond. --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Dave Caroline wrote: > From: Dave Caroline > Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 12:53 AM > Im in the UK too East Midlands > > Dave Caroline > > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Rob Jarratt > > wrote: > > Do you ever get asked about machines in Europe? Would > it be worth extending > > the scope to cover Europe? If so I am in the UK. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of steven stengel > >> Sent: 13 August 2011 02:04 > >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors > >> > >> Hi, > >> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of old computer > > systems > >> offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't > want - too big, or too > > far > >> away to pay shipping. > >> > >> A while back I asked for other collectors who > would be receptive to these > >> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have > signed-up so far! > >> > >> But entire parts of the US are still open - the > East coast is covered > > pretty well, > >> but west of the Mississippi River these is almost > no one until the coast. > > I've > >> got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's > about it. > >> > >> Send me your name, email, and what you collect, > and I'll try to get you > > some > >> good stuff (some people got some REALLY good > stuff). > >> > >> Thanks- > >> Steven Stengel > >> http://oldcomputers.net > > > > > > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Aug 13 03:03:43 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 01:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1313222623.13923.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I will add you. Everyone who replies to me will be added, whether or not I respond. --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Dave Caroline wrote: > From: Dave Caroline > Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 12:53 AM > Im in the UK too East Midlands > > Dave Caroline > > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Rob Jarratt > > wrote: > > Do you ever get asked about machines in Europe? Would > it be worth extending > > the scope to cover Europe? If so I am in the UK. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of steven stengel > >> Sent: 13 August 2011 02:04 > >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors > >> > >> Hi, > >> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of old computer > > systems > >> offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't > want - too big, or too > > far > >> away to pay shipping. > >> > >> A while back I asked for other collectors who > would be receptive to these > >> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have > signed-up so far! > >> > >> But entire parts of the US are still open - the > East coast is covered > > pretty well, > >> but west of the Mississippi River these is almost > no one until the coast. > > I've > >> got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's > about it. > >> > >> Send me your name, email, and what you collect, > and I'll try to get you > > some > >> good stuff (some people got some REALLY good > stuff). > >> > >> Thanks- > >> Steven Stengel > >> http://oldcomputers.net > > > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 13 03:39:33 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 09:39:33 +0100 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313222489.68826.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <003101cc598d$387c9010$a975b030$@ntlworld.com> <1313222489.68826.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005601cc5994$8a596cd0$9f0c4670$@ntlworld.com> Yes that is right, clearly the fact that I had already told you has been paged out of memory by faulty wetware. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel > Sent: 13 August 2011 09:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: WANTED: More regional collectors > > I have 14 people in Europe. > You are on the list as NW UK. > > > --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > Subject: RE: WANTED: More regional collectors > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > , cctech at classiccmp.org > > Date: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 12:47 AM Do you ever get asked about > > machines in Europe? Would it be worth extending the scope to cover > > Europe? If so I am in the UK. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk- > > > bounces at classiccmp.org] > > On Behalf Of steven stengel > > > Sent: 13 August 2011 02:04 > > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors > > > > > > Hi, > > > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of > > old computer > > systems > > > offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want > > - too big, or too > > far > > > away to pay shipping. > > > > > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be > > receptive to these > > > orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so > > far! > > > > > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East > > coast is covered > > pretty well, > > > but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no > > one until the coast. > > I've > > > got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about > > it. > > > > > > Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and > > I'll try to get you > > some > > > good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > > > > > Thanks- > > > Steven Stengel > > > http://oldcomputers.net > > > > > > From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Aug 13 03:58:25 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 10:58:25 +0200 Subject: That darned HP card reader... Message-ID: <4E463CB1.30309@bluewin.ch> I give up. The 11'th attempt at repairing that gummy drive wheel resulted in yet another unround wheel that is unable to smoothly transfer cards. I just cannot seem to find the exact size of tubing, anything constructed with heatshrink just is not round. The clutch operation seems to be OK. Anyone wants to sell me a few inches of KNOWN WORKING ( i.e. correct size ) tubing ? Jos From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sat Aug 13 04:36:42 2011 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 05:36:42 -0400 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo .com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <338904$8c689t@fipsb03.cogeco.net> At 09:03 PM 12/08/2011, you wrote: >Hi, >I run the website http://oldcomputers.net >I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, >but most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. > >A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to >these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! > >But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is >covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is >almost no one until the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in >SLC, but that's about it. > >Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get >you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > >Thanks- >Steven Stengel >http://oldcomputers.net Please put me down for Windsor Ontario Canada. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 07:14:58 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:14:58 -0400 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <338904$8c689t@fipsb03.cogeco.net> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <338904$8c689t@fipsb03.cogeco.net> Message-ID: Jason McBrien Warren, Michigan jbmcb1 at gmail.com On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 5:36 AM, Charles E. Fox wrote: > At 09:03 PM 12/08/2011, you wrote: > >> Hi, >> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net >> I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but >> most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. >> >> A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these >> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! >> >> But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered >> pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until >> the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. >> >> Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you >> some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). >> >> Thanks- >> Steven Stengel >> http://oldcomputers.net >> > > Please put me down for Windsor Ontario Canada. > > Charlie Fox > > > Charles E. Fox > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. > 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 > www.chasfoxvideo.com > From pontus at update.uu.se Sat Aug 13 07:32:47 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:32:47 +0200 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313222623.13923.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313222623.13923.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E466EEF.7010506@update.uu.se> 2011-08-13 10:03, steven stengel skrev: > I will add you. > Everyone who replies to me will be added, whether or not I respond. > A reply is always nice :) I think I already signed up, but I'm in for sweden :) Regards, Pontus. From spedraja at ono.com Sat Aug 13 08:15:14 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:15:14 +0200 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313222489.68826.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <003101cc598d$387c9010$a975b030$@ntlworld.com> <1313222489.68826.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I live in Spain. And I've received diverse items from the US during the last ten years (at least). Mostly without problems. Regards Sergio 2011/8/13 steven stengel > I have 14 people in Europe. > You are on the list as NW UK. > > > --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > Subject: RE: WANTED: More regional collectors > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>, cctech at classiccmp.org > > Date: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 12:47 AM > > Do you ever get asked about machines > > in Europe? Would it be worth extending > > the scope to cover Europe? If so I am in the UK. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk- > > > bounces at classiccmp.org] > > On Behalf Of steven stengel > > > Sent: 13 August 2011 02:04 > > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors > > > > > > Hi, > > > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of > > old computer > > systems > > > offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want > > - too big, or too > > far > > > away to pay shipping. > > > > > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be > > receptive to these > > > orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so > > far! > > > > > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East > > coast is covered > > pretty well, > > > but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no > > one until the coast. > > I've > > > got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about > > it. > > > > > > Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and > > I'll try to get you > > some > > > good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > > > > > Thanks- > > > Steven Stengel > > > http://oldcomputers.net > > > > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 08:27:02 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:27:02 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12 August 2011 18:39, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 7 August 2011 20:49, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > >> > It doesn't. Since nobody will pay me for my time, my time is by definti= >> on >> > worthless. >> >> I am in the same boat, but recently, I have managed to get several >> bits of paying work. > > Unfortunately, I've been informed by the powers-that-be that while it is > perfectly legal for me to use my workshop for my hobby, if I make money > using it, it's a business and I have to meet all sorts of safety > regualtions, such as fitting guards to machine tools, fume estraction > equipment to the soldring iron, etc. Needless to say this would cost me a > lot more that I could evr make from doing such jobs, so while I'll hapily > help you fix your machines, I cannot accept payment for it. > > >> >> So, in the garage & attic, I have: >> >> * 1 dead Apple iMac G5 20" with a well-known motherboard capacitor proble= >> m > > Do you know which capactiros are involved? Do you have replacements (or > at least know what they should be)? > >> * 1 dead Apple Mac SE/30, cause unknown, but I've bought a service manual > > I doubt that's what I'd call a 'service manual' but I can take a look at > the machine anyway... > > >> * 1 dead IBM ThinkPad 700, due to battery leakage, that needs to be >> stripped down and given a good clean and checked for damage > > OK... > >> * 1 dead Acorn RISC PC and a spare motherboard, which to be honest, I >> suspect I can sort out myself :) > > Pitty, that's the only one I have a schematic for. > >> >> Fancy having a crack at the two Macs and the "Butterfly"? Happy to pay >> for your time, and I'll deliver them to you. I'll buy and bring a set >> of replacement capacitors for the iMac. > > Quite possibly, but as I said, there'll be no charge. Alternatively I can > bring a small-ish toolkit and test gear to you and at least fix the > easier machines, and get some idea what needs to be done ot the others. > Let me know... OK, thanks, and I will do! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 13 11:31:38 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 09:31:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> > Unfortunately, I've been informed by the powers-that-be that while it is > perfectly legal for me to use my workshop for my hobby, if I make money > using it, it's a business and I have to meet all sorts of safety > regualtions, such as fitting guards to machine tools, fume estraction > equipment to the soldring iron, etc. Needless to say this would cost me a > lot more that I could evr make from doing such jobs, so while I'll hapily > help you fix your machines, I cannot accept payment for it. But that does NOT preclude you giving Tony an appropriate gift. Legally gifts may include currency, but that might look like non-compliance on Tony's part, so stick to interesting old hardware, or gift certificates to his suppliers. From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Sat Aug 13 12:59:46 2011 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 13:59:46 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/53 XXDP ZRQC?? on 5 1/4 floppy needed In-Reply-To: References: <1310434197.18734.YahooMailRC@web83803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20110809185323.02486388@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20110813135816.024e91a0@verizon.net> Yes, I could use the RX33 format. Email me an image and I'll get PUTR to write it out. Use to be able to do this long ago, but I have changed computers so many times that I lost the ability. Doug At 07:50 PM 8/9/2011, you wrote: >On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:54 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > Did you ever get the disk you were looking for? I need the same thing, I > > had one but accidentally over wrote it. > > > > Doug Taylor > >Are you looking for this in RX33 format? Given an RX33 image do you >have the capability to write it out to a physical floppy from a PC? >It shouldn't be too difficult to cook up a bootable RX33 XXDP image >using SIMH. Of course only a subset of the XXDP diagnostics will fit >on a single floppy so you need to tailor the set to the target system >and task at hand. > >-Glen From oe5ewl at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 13:03:52 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 20:03:52 +0200 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: References: <003101cc598d$387c9010$a975b030$@ntlworld.com> <1313222489.68826.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I live in Austria, collecting too an willing to organize and help someone something shipping if needed. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/8/13 SPC > I live in Spain. And I've received diverse items from the US during the > last > ten years (at least). Mostly without problems. > > Regards > Sergio > > 2011/8/13 steven stengel > > > I have 14 people in Europe. > > You are on the list as NW UK. > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > > Subject: RE: WANTED: More regional collectors > > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org>, cctech at classiccmp.org > > > Date: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 12:47 AM > > > Do you ever get asked about machines > > > in Europe? Would it be worth extending > > > the scope to cover Europe? If so I am in the UK. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk- > > > > bounces at classiccmp.org] > > > On Behalf Of steven stengel > > > > Sent: 13 August 2011 02:04 > > > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > > Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of > > > old computer > > > systems > > > > offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want > > > - too big, or too > > > far > > > > away to pay shipping. > > > > > > > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be > > > receptive to these > > > > orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so > > > far! > > > > > > > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East > > > coast is covered > > > pretty well, > > > > but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no > > > one until the coast. > > > I've > > > > got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about > > > it. > > > > > > > > Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and > > > I'll try to get you > > > some > > > > good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > > > > > > > Thanks- > > > > Steven Stengel > > > > http://oldcomputers.net > > > > > > > > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 13 14:03:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:03:12 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110811173030.M98337@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E447246.40805@neurotica.com> <20110811173030.M98337@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E46CA70.3090205@neurotica.com> On 08/11/2011 08:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> There must've been some compelling reason to do it this way. I'll be >> damned if I can figure out what it was. > Yes. > You can get qo times as many done per unit of time by poking a hole > instead of disassembly. And you could USUALLY get away without the > additional cleaning, etc. inside. Multiple refills, yes, that makes sense. One other thing that comes to mind is that the blacks were much better AFTER the first refill. It was widely believed at the time that the drum was just getting "broken in" by that time. > BUT, can you remember where to get some of that toner, so that Tony can > rebuild cartridges? Oh hell no, if it's even still available, that was the 1980s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sat Aug 13 14:37:06 2011 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 21:37:06 +0200 Subject: AW: cctalk Digest, Vol 96, Issue 18 More regional collectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Here in Europe, we have still collectors, so maybe this is also for interst. My name is Gerhard and I collect DEC PDP8 and PDP11, www.compuseum.at Thanks for note our work here. With best regards Gerhard OE3GKC -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Samstag, 13. August 2011 19:00 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 96, Issue 18 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: WANTED: More regional collectors (Charles E. Fox) 2. Re: WANTED: More regional collectors (Jason McBrien) 3. Re: WANTED: More regional collectors (Pontus) 4. Re: WANTED: More regional collectors (SPC) 5. Re: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 (Liam Proven) 6. Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 (Fred Cisin) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 05:36:42 -0400 From: "Charles E. Fox" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors Message-ID: <338904$8c689t at fipsb03.cogeco.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:03 PM 12/08/2011, you wrote: >Hi, >I run the website http://oldcomputers.net >I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, >but most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. > >A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to >these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! > >But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is >covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is >almost no one until the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in >SLC, but that's about it. > >Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get >you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > >Thanks- >Steven Stengel >http://oldcomputers.net Please put me down for Windsor Ontario Canada. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 08:14:58 -0400 From: Jason McBrien To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jason McBrien Warren, Michigan jbmcb1 at gmail.com On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 5:36 AM, Charles E. Fox wrote: > At 09:03 PM 12/08/2011, you wrote: > >> Hi, >> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net >> I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but >> most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. >> >> A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these >> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! >> >> But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered >> pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until >> the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. >> >> Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you >> some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). >> >> Thanks- >> Steven Stengel >> http://oldcomputers.net >> > > Please put me down for Windsor Ontario Canada. > > Charlie Fox > > > Charles E. Fox > 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. > 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 > www.chasfoxvideo.com > ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:32:47 +0200 From: Pontus To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors Message-ID: <4E466EEF.7010506 at update.uu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 2011-08-13 10:03, steven stengel skrev: > I will add you. > Everyone who replies to me will be added, whether or not I respond. > A reply is always nice :) I think I already signed up, but I'm in for sweden :) Regards, Pontus. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 15:15:14 +0200 From: SPC To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I live in Spain. And I've received diverse items from the US during the last ten years (at least). Mostly without problems. Regards Sergio 2011/8/13 steven stengel > I have 14 people in Europe. > You are on the list as NW UK. > > > --- On Sat, 8/13/11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > From: Rob Jarratt > > Subject: RE: WANTED: More regional collectors > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org>, cctech at classiccmp.org > > Date: Saturday, August 13, 2011, 12:47 AM > > Do you ever get asked about machines > > in Europe? Would it be worth extending > > the scope to cover Europe? If so I am in the UK. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk- > > > bounces at classiccmp.org] > > On Behalf Of steven stengel > > > Sent: 13 August 2011 02:04 > > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors > > > > > > Hi, > > > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of > > old computer > > systems > > > offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want > > - too big, or too > > far > > > away to pay shipping. > > > > > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be > > receptive to these > > > orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so > > far! > > > > > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East > > coast is covered > > pretty well, > > > but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no > > one until the coast. > > I've > > > got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about > > it. > > > > > > Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and > > I'll try to get you > > some > > > good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > > > > > Thanks- > > > Steven Stengel > > > http://oldcomputers.net > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 14:27:02 +0100 From: Liam Proven To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Subject: Re: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On 12 August 2011 18:39, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 7 August 2011 20:49, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > >> > It doesn't. Since nobody will pay me for my time, my time is by definti= >> on >> > worthless. >> >> I am in the same boat, but recently, I have managed to get several >> bits of paying work. > > Unfortunately, I've been informed by the powers-that-be that while it is > perfectly legal for me to use my workshop for my hobby, if I make money > using it, it's a business and I have to meet all sorts of safety > regualtions, such as fitting guards to machine tools, fume estraction > equipment to the soldring iron, etc. Needless to say this would cost me a > lot more that I could evr make from doing such jobs, so while I'll hapily > help you fix your machines, I cannot accept payment for it. > > >> >> So, in the garage & attic, I have: >> >> * 1 dead Apple iMac G5 20" with a well-known motherboard capacitor proble= >> m > > Do you know which capactiros are involved? Do you have replacements (or > at least know what they should be)? > >> * 1 dead Apple Mac SE/30, cause unknown, but I've bought a service manual > > I doubt that's what I'd call a 'service manual' but I can take a look at > the machine anyway... > > >> * 1 dead IBM ThinkPad 700, due to battery leakage, that needs to be >> stripped down and given a good clean and checked for damage > > OK... > >> * 1 dead Acorn RISC PC and a spare motherboard, which to be honest, I >> suspect I can sort out myself :) > > Pitty, that's the only one I have a schematic for. > >> >> Fancy having a crack at the two Macs and the "Butterfly"? Happy to pay >> for your time, and I'll deliver them to you. I'll buy and bring a set >> of replacement capacitors for the iMac. > > Quite possibly, but as I said, there'll be no charge. Alternatively I can > bring a small-ish toolkit and test gear to you and at least fix the > easier machines, and get some idea what needs to be done ot the others. > Let me know... OK, thanks, and I will do! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 09:31:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 Message-ID: <20110813092714.U69797 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Unfortunately, I've been informed by the powers-that-be that while it is > perfectly legal for me to use my workshop for my hobby, if I make money > using it, it's a business and I have to meet all sorts of safety > regualtions, such as fitting guards to machine tools, fume estraction > equipment to the soldring iron, etc. Needless to say this would cost me a > lot more that I could evr make from doing such jobs, so while I'll hapily > help you fix your machines, I cannot accept payment for it. But that does NOT preclude you giving Tony an appropriate gift. Legally gifts may include currency, but that might look like non-compliance on Tony's part, so stick to interesting old hardware, or gift certificates to his suppliers. End of cctalk Digest, Vol 96, Issue 18 ************************************** From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 13 14:32:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 20:32:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: That darned HP card reader... In-Reply-To: <4E463CB1.30309@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Aug 13, 11 10:58:25 am Message-ID: HP have made many, many card readers over the years, for both punched cards and magnetic cards. Could you tell us what uou ware working on :-) > > > I give up. The 11'th attempt at repairing that gummy drive wheel resulted in yet another unround wheel that is unable to smoothly transfer cards. > I just cannot seem to find the exact size of tubing, anything constructed with heatshrink just is not round. > The clutch operation seems to be OK. > Anyone wants to sell me a few inches of KNOWN WORKING ( i.e. correct size ) tubing ? If this isa calculator magnetic card reader of the HP65/97/97/41 type, I find a couple of size 005 O-rings work fine. If it's an HP9100/9810/9820 magnetic card reader, I use a larger-zize O-ring, but I also machine a new metal hub to hold it. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 13 14:49:37 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 12:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E46CA70.3090205@neurotica.com> References: <4E447246.40805@neurotica.com> <20110811173030.M98337@shell.lmi.net> <4E46CA70.3090205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110813123732.N77632@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 13 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > One other thing that comes to mind is that the blacks were much > better AFTER the first refill. It was widely believed at the time that > the drum was just getting "broken in" by that time. There was also a finite useful life of the drum, and although the "sweet-spot" was AFTER the first refill, the quality after many refills was NOT good. I would guess that it would vary enormously depending on what kind of content was being done (average density?). But there was also no question that the CX drum had a life far greater than the amount of toner in the cartridge. That "problem" was fixed in the SX, by using a much smaller drum, with a shorter drum life. HP did not seem to be very receptive to the concept of refilling their cartridges. "We will pay the postage for you to send it back so that we can "recycle" it, by crushing it and retireving some amount of the raw materials in order to get that cartridge out of availability!" > > BUT, can you remember where to get some of that toner, so that Tony can > > rebuild cartridges? > Oh hell no, if it's even still available, that was the 1980s. I have no idea even of how many different parameters there are in types of toners, but surely SOMETHING in current availability uses a reasonably compatible toner (toner itself - no chance of cartridge interchangability!) From classiccmp at crash.com Sat Aug 13 15:07:11 2011 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 13:07:11 -0700 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E46D96F.6080202@crash.com> On 08/12/2011 06:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. Wouldn't it be nifty to have a published list that people can find via Google/Bing/Yaddasearch when they're looking to find a new home for classic gear? Bill Yakowenko used to maintain such a list (http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/ccrs_list.html ) and I know I received several fruitful inquiries from it. Not clear how actively Bill's been maintaining it the past few years, though... Not trying to take anything away from your efforts, Steve, direct personal referrals are generally going to be higher quality. It's just been bothering me as I tried to remember where that list was and who had been maintaining it. Thoughts? This is something that could be linked to from all our many different retrocomputing, collecting, and museum sites, which would then drive it up in most search results - giving us a slightly better chance to save more machines. --/S/. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 16:52:59 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 07:52:59 +1000 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <4E46D96F.6080202@crash.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E46D96F.6080202@crash.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 6:07 AM, Steven M Jones wrote: > Wouldn't it be nifty to have a published list that people can find via > Google/Bing/Yaddasearch when they're looking to find a new home for > classic gear? Bill Yakowenko used to maintain such a list > (http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/ccrs_list.html > In Australia, I maintain this list as I come across people: http://www.retroComputingTasmania.com/home/ozcollectorscollections From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 13 18:49:59 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 16:49:59 -0700 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:10 AM -0700 8/13/11, Paxton Hoag wrote: >Have helped fill many a collection around the world. I can vouch for that! I'd have a *LOT* more room in my garage if it wasn't for you!!! ;-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Aug 13 22:53:44 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 20:53:44 -0700 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> Whats the guess this will go for ? It is rough but, still. Haven't seen one on ebay while I've been paying attention . http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-PDP-8-minicomputer-straight-8-ASR-33-TTY-/230660204770 From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Aug 14 00:22:04 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 22:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1313299324.48817.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Whats the guess this will go for ? It's sad to see the panel in such awful shape, but a machine like this would warrant fabricating a replacement. I've seen two Straight-8's sell on eBay in the past seven years. One was a rackmount system (mine) that went for 15k and the other was a tabletop like this one, but in much better cosmetic condition, that went for 35k in a "buy it now" only a few hours after it was listed. (With a market like that, it's hard to say how many might have been sold under the radar, unbeknownst to any of us here.) Another Straight-8 was offered to the the collector community (e.g., on this list) within the last year or so, and sold in a private transaction. There don't seem to be many coming onto the market. I doubt this machine will sell for a penny less than than 10k, and likely go higher. --Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 14 00:26:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 01:26:00 -0400 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E475C68.4010309@neurotica.com> On 08/13/2011 11:53 PM, leaknoil wrote: > Whats the guess this will go for ? It is rough but, still. Haven't seen > one on ebay while I've been paying attention . > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-PDP-8-minicomputer-straight-8-ASR-33-TTY-/230660204770 Jeeeeeezus. My guess is $18K. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 00:35:58 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 01:35:58 -0400 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: <1313299324.48817.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> <1313299324.48817.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I doubt this machine will sell for a penny less than than 10k, > and likely go higher. This one is in somewhat poor condition, and pickup only, so it may go cheap. Cheap as in still well into the four digits. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 14 01:03:29 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 23:03:29 -0700 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> <1313299324.48817.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:35 AM -0400 8/14/11, William Donzelli wrote: > > I doubt this machine will sell for a penny less than than 10k, >> and likely go higher. > >This one is in somewhat poor condition, and pickup only, so it may go >cheap. Cheap as in still well into the four digits. Even with local pickup, I wouldn't be surprised by 5 digits, as anyone that can afford the machine, can afford to arrange local pickup. Though the seller would probably have been better off waiting till the economy isn't so iffy, I think that might hurt the final price more than the local pickup. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From leaknoil at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 01:14:45 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 23:14:45 -0700 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> <1313299324.48817.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E4767D5.7070708@gmail.com> Two bids an it is over 1k. I am curious though. This list is the experts and as a fan of Antiques Roadshow if you were on TV and someone wheeled this up to you what would the auction estimates and insurance replacement values be ? On 8/13/2011 11:03 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Even with local pickup, I wouldn't be surprised by 5 digits, as anyone > that can afford the machine, can afford to arrange local pickup. > Though the seller would probably have been better off waiting till the > economy isn't so iffy, I think that might hurt the final price more > than the local pickup. > > Zane > > > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 01:47:08 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 08:47:08 +0200 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: <01d501cc57ee$858d3a80$90a7af80$@ntlworld.com> References: <1313012895.40111.YahooMailClassic@web29615.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110811013817.GA13691@brevard.conman.org> <01d501cc57ee$858d3a80$90a7af80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Cheats & Pong Computer Museum Pong Reloaded Pipe-Grep Computer Museum 4D Computer Museum The GPU Pipeline High Def Computer Museum Geometry Engine (Computer) Museum Imageduct Computer Museum /dev/fb Computer Museum Stephane Join Kiva. http://www.kiva.org/team/kathleen From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 14 01:53:40 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 02:53:40 -0400 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay References: <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> <1313299324.48817.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A bad economy didn't hurt that Apple I board sold for $200K+ a little less then a year ago. There are people making more money then ever these days, and they are probably speculating on vintage computers now. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 2:03 AM Subject: Re: Straight 8 on ebay > At 1:35 AM -0400 8/14/11, William Donzelli wrote: >> > I doubt this machine will sell for a penny less than than 10k, >>> and likely go higher. >> >>This one is in somewhat poor condition, and pickup only, so it may go >>cheap. Cheap as in still well into the four digits. > > Even with local pickup, I wouldn't be surprised by 5 digits, as anyone > that can afford the machine, can afford to arrange local pickup. Though > the seller would probably have been better off waiting till the economy > isn't so iffy, I think that might hurt the final price more than the local > pickup. > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 01:56:39 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 08:56:39 +0200 Subject: Operating System Design: The Xinu Approach, Linksys Version Message-ID: For those interested, a new book : Operating System Design: The Xinu Approach, Linksys Version Douglas Comer http://www.amazon.com/Operating-System-Design-Approach-Linksys/dp/143988109X/ref=dp_return_1?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books ISBN-10: 143988109X ISBN-13: 978-1439881095 TOC : http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9781439881118/ -- Stephane Join Kiva http://kiva.org/invitedby/stephanefr join the team http://www.kiva.org/team/kathleen From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Aug 14 02:58:22 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 09:58:22 +0200 Subject: That darned HP card reader... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E47801E.9090702@bluewin.ch> On 08/13/2011 09:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > HP have made many, many card readers over the years, for both punched > cards and magnetic cards. Could you tell us what uou ware working on :-) Of course,.... It is an HP97S calculator. Should have realized that my email was somewhat short on info... Had some replies from people thinking I was working on punched-card readers. Jos From spedraja at ono.com Sun Aug 14 03:26:22 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:26:22 +0200 Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: <1313012895.40111.YahooMailClassic@web29615.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110811013817.GA13691@brevard.conman.org> <01d501cc57ee$858d3a80$90a7af80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Main title: And the Computers began to draw. Subtitle: A museum dedicated to the graphics in computing. (cut and paste as you like) Regards Sergio P. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Aug 14 05:51:01 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:51:01 +0200 Subject: That darned HP card reader... In-Reply-To: <4E47801E.9090702@bluewin.ch> References: <4E47801E.9090702@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <000901cc5a70$120cfda0$3626f8e0$@xs4all.nl> Jos, I've the o-rings stocked so if you want some let me know, keep in mind that the clutch between the motor axle and worm-wheel must also be in good shape. A quick but not preferable fix is gluing the clutch together, otherwise you can use wire insulation of the right size to fix the clutch. It's also important to check the caps on the card reader board for high ESR, I always replace the tantalium caps on those boards. At the HP Calc museum DVD there is a service manual for the HP 97(S) if you don't have it you can get a copy from me. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Jos Dreesen > Verzonden: zondag 14 augustus 2011 9:58 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: That darned HP card reader... > > On 08/13/2011 09:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > HP have made many, many card readers over the years, for both punched > > cards and magnetic cards. Could you tell us what uou ware working on > > :-) > > Of course,.... > > It is an HP97S calculator. > > Should have realized that my email was somewhat short on info... > > > Had some replies from people thinking I was working on punched-card readers. > > Jos > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 09:46:41 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 10:46:41 -0400 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> <1313299324.48817.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > A bad economy didn't hurt that Apple I board sold for $200K+ a little less > then a year ago. There are people making more money then ever these days, > and they are probably speculating on vintage computers now. Yes, that is right, but usually collectors in this category will only buy items in very good condition. This PDP-8 is not good. But who knows - Mr. Maddox may be correct. -- Will From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Aug 14 11:01:18 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 09:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S-100 Serial IO and S-100 EPROM PCBs available Message-ID: <1313337678.8693.YahooMailClassic@web180202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, If any one needs S-100 Serial IO and S-100 EPROM/RAM PCBs to restore their S-100 system or even build their own from scratch please contact me. There is more information here: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Serial%20IO%20Board/Serial%20IO%20Board.htm http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PROM%20Board/PROM%20Board.htm There are plenty of each PCB left although the S-100 EPROM/RAM boards are starting to get low. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 14 11:39:35 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 09:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: museum name contest In-Reply-To: References: <1313012895.40111.YahooMailClassic@web29615.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110811013817.GA13691@brevard.conman.org> <01d501cc57ee$858d3a80$90a7af80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110814090809.M7167@shell.lmi.net> Willing to take on an intellectual property jungle? Flying Toasters! with a big mural of shooting down flying toasters. Then you can get sued by Delrina for infringing on their Opus and Bill screen saver, which infringed on the Berkeley Systems (After Dark) screen saver, which infringed on the Jefferson Airplane "Thirty Seconds Over Winterland" album cover. How much were you going to spend on publicizing the place? This might get you national coverage! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 14 12:28:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:28:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <20110813123732.N77632@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 13, 11 12:49:37 pm Message-ID: > I have no idea even of how many different parameters there are in types of Obvious ones would include : Particle size Fusing tempearture Electrical conductivity Permitivity? Any others (and which of those really matter?) -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Aug 14 13:16:20 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:16:20 -0700 Subject: Operating System Design: The Xinu Approach, Linksys Version In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's interesting that this is the "Linksys Version" because the code examples have been rewritten to run on the Linksys router platform, because it's supposedly inexpensive and accessible. Yes, but think about all the PC clones sitting around waiting for recycling...? Those are pretty much free. And somewhere around here I have a version written for the PC on 5-1/4" floppies. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of St?phane Tsacas [stephane.tsacas at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 11:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Operating System Design: The Xinu Approach, Linksys Version For those interested, a new book : Operating System Design: The Xinu Approach, Linksys Version Douglas Comer http://www.amazon.com/Operating-System-Design-Approach-Linksys/dp/143988109X/ref=dp_return_1?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books ISBN-10: 143988109X ISBN-13: 978-1439881095 TOC : http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9781439881118/ -- Stephane Join Kiva http://kiva.org/invitedby/stephanefr join the team http://www.kiva.org/team/kathleen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 14 13:23:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 19:23:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: That darned HP card reader... In-Reply-To: <000901cc5a70$120cfda0$3626f8e0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Aug 14, 11 12:51:01 pm Message-ID: > > Jos, > > I've the o-rings stocked so if you want some let me know, keep in mind that > the clutch between the motor axle and worm-wheel must also be in good shape. > A quick but not preferable fix is gluing the clutch together, otherwise you > can use wire insulation of the right size to fix the clutch. > It's also important to check the caps on the card reader board for high ESR, > I always replace the tantalium caps on those boards. There's a capacitor in parallel with the motor in most of these magnetic card readers, it's important to check that one. Also, clean the cotnacts on the card detction leaf switch (the ends of the spring leaf and the pads on th PCB, and in the case of a 9 7or 97S, set it up as per the service manual instructions. I've had those malfucntion in intersting ways... -tony From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Aug 14 14:03:00 2011 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 20:03:00 +0100 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E481BE4.7060406@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Obvious ones would include : > > Particle size > Fusing tempearture > Electrical conductivity > Permitivity? > > Any others (and which of those really matter?) How about magnetic properites? The old DEC 03 toner was magnetically attracted within the printer onto a roller before being electrostatically attracted onto the drum. Presumably, it contained some iron or iron compound. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 14 14:41:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:41:29 -0400 Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E481BE4.7060406@gifford.co.uk> References: <4E481BE4.7060406@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <4E4824E9.4000803@neurotica.com> On 08/14/2011 03:03 PM, John Honniball wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> Obvious ones would include : >> Particle size >> Fusing tempearture >> Electrical conductivity >> Permitivity? >> >> Any others (and which of those really matter?) > > How about magnetic properites? The old DEC 03 toner was magnetically > attracted within the printer onto a roller before being > electrostatically attracted onto the drum. Presumably, it > contained some iron or iron compound. Yes, and in fact in one engine I've seen (might have actually been the CX or the SX, or maybe the Ricoh, I don't recall) the toner is "splayed out" by a linear magnet underneath a roller, like whiskers, to make contact with the drum. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Aug 14 16:27:26 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 16:27:26 -0500 Subject: Teraks on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201108142128.p7ELSsGU058009@billy.ezwind.net> There's two Teraks on eBay at 320744126002 . They look pretty rough. (Pack rats, the rodent kind.) Pick-up only in Tucson, AZ. I received an email from the seller and have asked what's on the floppies. - John From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 16:55:43 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 16:55:43 -0500 Subject: Wow! Great OSI collection for someone in MI... In-Reply-To: References: <4e3f789e.82322b0a.3d6f.43aeSMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Jason T wrote: > The same seller also has a very complete, incredibly cool Varityper > typesetting system for $notmuch. ?I would love to rescue it but it's > well beyond my means (storage & transport) at this time. ?I am hoping > someone else will make arrangements to save it. ?This guy looks like > he's a scrapper! It closed with a bid...hopefully someone here or elsewhere who will keep it intact. -j From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 14 18:17:55 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 16:17:55 -0700 Subject: Teraks on eBay In-Reply-To: <201108142128.p7ELSsGU058009@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <201108142128.p7ELSsGU058009@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E4857A3.301@bitsavers.org> On 8/14/11 2:27 PM, John Foust wrote: > > There's two Teraks on eBay at 320744126002 . They look pretty rough. > (Pack rats, the rodent kind.) Pick-up only in Tucson, AZ. I received > an email from the seller and have asked what's on the floppies. > > - John > > > well, I may go after these for the software and the extra keyboard. I have four units, two monitors, and no keyboards. From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 18:27:02 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 01:27:02 +0200 Subject: Operating System Design: The Xinu Approach, Linksys Version In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 20:16, Ian King wrote: > It's interesting that this is the "Linksys Version" because the code > examples have been rewritten to run on the Linksys router platform, because > it's supposedly inexpensive and accessible. Yes, but think about all the PC > clones sitting around waiting for recycling...? Those are pretty much free. > And somewhere around here I have a version written for the PC on 5-1/4" > floppies. -- Ian I didn't check, but the distribs must be there (including a Pentium edition) : ftp://ftp.cs.purdue.edu/pub/Xinu/ Content : CONC.Z TCPIP-vol2.dist.tar.Z TCPIP-vol2.dist.tar.gz TCPIP-vol3.linux.dist.tar.Z XINU-68K.README XINU-68K.TAR.Z XINU-BOOT-LOADER.TAR XINU-MAC.TAR.Z XINU-PC-BOOK-CODE.tar XINU-PDP11.TAR.Z XINU-PDP11.V7.TAR.Z XINU-PENTIUM.TAR.Z XINU-SPARC.README XINU-SPARC.TAR.Z XINU-VAX.README XINU-VAX.TAR.Z -- Stephane http://kiva.org/invitedto/kathleen/by/stephanefr From segin2005 at gmail.com Sun Aug 14 22:48:50 2011 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2011 23:48:50 -0400 Subject: irc clients for Windows - was Re: LA50 Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <001c01cc5488$50a30c50$f1e924f0$@ntlworld.com> <002401cc54db$ce517e40$6af47ac0$@ntlworld.com> <00d201cc560f$7aba0010$702e0030$@ntlworld.com> <4E4072A9.70404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E489722.8000406@gmail.com> Adrian Stoness wrote: > icechat and its free > > On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > >> pidgin - its open source and can keep your private conversations private >> with OTR >> >> irssi is available for Windows and it comes with an installer. From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Aug 15 05:23:59 2011 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 11:23:59 +0100 Subject: Walnut Creek 1994 CP/M CDROM disk differences In-Reply-To: References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <20110812092801.GA23992@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110815102359.GA12081@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 09:19:29AM -0600, Richard wrote: > In article <20110812092801.GA23992 at bytemark.barnyard.co.uk>, > David Cantrell writes: > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 09:44:53AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Thank you. I just discovered there are TWO versions of this disk! > > Make that three. > > plough:walnut-creek-CDROM david$ md5sum 00-INDEX.TXT > > 516420e34e8129e430a6783ce216d424 00-INDEX.TXT > You don't say explicitly, but this output implies that this is the MD5 > of the index text file, whereas others were posting the MD5 of the > disc ISO. > > Am I wrong or confused? One of us is confused, certainly, but it could be me :-) I was under the impression that the MD5 sums being bandied about were of the index file. -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive EINE KIRCHE! EIN KREDO! EIN PAPST! From pinball at telus.net Sat Aug 13 11:43:24 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2011 09:43:24 -0700 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> Fred Cisin wrote: >> Unfortunately, I've been informed by the powers-that-be that while it is >> perfectly legal for me to use my workshop for my hobby, if I make money >> using it, it's a business and I have to meet all sorts of safety >> regualtions, such as fitting guards to machine tools, fume estraction >> equipment to the soldring iron, etc. Needless to say this would cost me a >> lot more that I could evr make from doing such jobs, so while I'll hapily >> help you fix your machines, I cannot accept payment for it. >> > > But that does NOT preclude you giving Tony an appropriate gift. Legally > gifts may include currency, but that might look like non-compliance on > Tony's part, so stick to interesting old hardware, or gift certificates to > his suppliers. > > > > I am curious about the information that Tony received about various safety equipment 'required'. Perhaps this extra investment is only required if he has employees, but not if he does the work solo. I have no idea of the laws in the UK, but have trouble believing they are that intrusive to a small home-based business. As long as Tony is declaring his income sources I fail to see where he would run into any problems - considering that I doubt he would be making much on the odd repair of equipment - and if he does end up making money, then he can open a small shop and add the safety items as required for small employers in his country. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Mon Aug 15 02:20:29 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 17:20:29 +1000 Subject: Operating System Design: The Xinu Approach, Linksys Version In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4815E7CC-33AE-46F9-9D9D-967BFCB33128@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 15/08/2011, at 9:27 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > > > I didn't check, but the distribs must be there (including a Pentium edition) > : ftp://ftp.cs.purdue.edu/pub/Xinu/ > Content : > CONC.Z > TCPIP-vol2.dist.tar.Z > TCPIP-vol2.dist.tar.gz > TCPIP-vol3.linux.dist.tar.Z > XINU-68K.README > XINU-68K.TAR.Z > XINU-BOOT-LOADER.TAR > XINU-MAC.TAR.Z > XINU-PC-BOOK-CODE.tar > XINU-PDP11.TAR.Z > XINU-PDP11.V7.TAR.Z > XINU-PENTIUM.TAR.Z > XINU-SPARC.README > XINU-SPARC.TAR.Z > XINU-VAX.README > XINU-VAX.TAR.Z Mmm. Xinu VAX - anyone played with this? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jeffj at panix.com Mon Aug 15 02:28:48 2011 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 03:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: mystery panel Message-ID: Can anyone identify the diagnostic panel? http://ferretronix.com/march/dm160_dage/ It's 18: DM160 indicator tubes with hand-written legends, possibly from an AT&T 1ESS or early switch. I also need help with my Dage Scientific MC-3 1802 processor development system. It is similar to the RCA COSMAC ELF. But it is MISSING the keyboard/display panel! Just the manual and/or schematic would help me. Thanks in advance -- Jeff Jonas From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 15 08:37:53 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 06:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Aug 2011, John Robertson wrote: >> > I am curious about the information that Tony received about various safety > equipment 'required'. Perhaps this extra investment is only required if he > has employees, but not if he does the work solo. I have no idea of the laws > in the UK, but have trouble believing they are that intrusive to a small > home-based business. > It's my understanding that the "health & safety" types in the UK are so over the top that they may eventually change the UK flag colors to be safety yellow with reflective silver stripes. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 15 09:20:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 10:20:50 -0400 Subject: Operating System Design: The Xinu Approach, Linksys Version In-Reply-To: <4815E7CC-33AE-46F9-9D9D-967BFCB33128@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <4815E7CC-33AE-46F9-9D9D-967BFCB33128@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <4E492B42.2060008@neurotica.com> On 8/15/11 3:20 AM, Huw Davies wrote: >> XINU-VAX.README >> XINU-VAX.TAR.Z > > Mmm. Xinu VAX - anyone played with this? I haven't, but I'm gonna! 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 15 10:16:59 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:16:59 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> Message-ID: <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> You wouldn't believe the ridiculous degree to which "health and safety" has been taken in this country. When it snows my son's school won't let the children out to play in the snow, throw snow balls, make slides etc, all for fear of being sued. If you drive a company car, that is considered a place of work and you are not allowed to smoke in it (not that I smoke). Some councils (local government in the UK) no longer decorate their town with hanging baskets of flowers in case one will fall on someone's head. The list goes on and on. I can quite believe what Tony says, particularly if it is considered a business. Perhaps Tony's only way out is to find a way for it not to be considered a business, but I don't know how he could do that. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Robertson > Sent: 13 August 2011 17:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Unfortunately, I've been informed by the powers-that-be that while it > >> is perfectly legal for me to use my workshop for my hobby, if I make > >> money using it, it's a business and I have to meet all sorts of > >> safety regualtions, such as fitting guards to machine tools, fume > >> estraction equipment to the soldring iron, etc. Needless to say this > >> would cost me a lot more that I could evr make from doing such jobs, > >> so while I'll hapily help you fix your machines, I cannot accept payment for > it. > >> > > > > But that does NOT preclude you giving Tony an appropriate gift. > > Legally gifts may include currency, but that might look like > > non-compliance on Tony's part, so stick to interesting old hardware, > > or gift certificates to his suppliers. > > > > > > > > > I am curious about the information that Tony received about various safety > equipment 'required'. Perhaps this extra investment is only required if he has > employees, but not if he does the work solo. I have no idea of the laws in the > UK, but have trouble believing they are that intrusive to a small home-based > business. > > As long as Tony is declaring his income sources I fail to see where he would > run into any problems - considering that I doubt he would be making much on > the odd repair of equipment - and if he does end up making money, then he > can open a small shop and add the safety items as required for small > employers in his country. > > John :-#)# > > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872- > 5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) > www.flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 15 10:43:22 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:43:22 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E493E9A.7050402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 15/08/2011 16:16, Rob Jarratt wrote: > You wouldn't believe the ridiculous degree to which "health and safety" has > been taken in this country. > > When it snows my son's school won't let the children out to play in the > snow, throw snow balls, make slides etc, all for fear of being sued. Even when I was at junior school back in the 70s we where asked not to throw snowballs incase they contained stones (by mistake), so nothing new there. > If you > drive a company car, that is considered a place of work and you are not > allowed to smoke in it (not that I smoke). That's nothing to do with H&S, that's to do with the smoking in public places law, which makes it an offense to smoke in an enclosed public space or workplace. I guess non-smokers have a right to not be exposed to harmfull substances whilst doing their job. > Some councils (local government > in the UK) no longer decorate their town with hanging baskets of flowers in > case one will fall on someone's head. The list goes on and on. There are also a lot of people that don't know what they talk about and site H&S as the reason. The reason for this is that there is a lot of misconception about H&S. H&S law doesn't say that you have to prevent every possible risk, just that you have to minimise them whenever possible, and that anyone taking a risk for whatever reason should be fully aware of it. In the above case as long as said council had done all it reasonably could to ensure that said hanging baskets where well maintained then they shouldn't have a problem. Cheers. PS usual disclaimer I'm not a lawyer or in anyway an expert however I am married to the deputy departmental safety officer in a UK academic institution....so hopefully I have picked some of it up. Phill. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 10:45:50 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 16:45:50 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I did look on the UK .gov site when I first saw this thread, iirc when you get into the real info self employed are not required to have the same safety equipment as an employer would. The front page I saw was mostly planning and rates and blanked health and safety, says me hiding from .gov types in the UK too :) Hence my collection site only mentions donations and even if I get asked up front before I scan something I just say donation, and just do the scan, provide the url, and hope for the best. Doing the occasional job for a few notes is also within planning I believe if its not the main job and also not more than x times a year, I remember reading something about the frequency test of amateur car car sales in that regard. Also working from hope planning has been relaxed a bit for teleworking etc. but the official line often shows the onerous catch all wording. Dave Caroline From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 15 11:04:48 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 09:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110815085354.C44209@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I can quite believe what Tony says, particularly if it is considered a > business. Perhaps Tony's only way out is to find a way for it not to be > considered a business, but I don't know how he could do that. EXACTLY as he is doing. By his refusal to accept payment, he makes it completely clear that it is NOT a business, merely a home hobby workshop, for which many safety-nanny requirements do not apply. But, even with that, there is nothing precluding him letting it be known what gifts, including gift certificates, he would like to receive from generous people that he helps. The prosecution LOST a case near here recently against a prostitute who advertised that she would like "assignations with generous men". I think that I would far rather trust Tony's judgement rather than the guvmint when it comes to decisions of what constitutes appropriate health and safety measures. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 15 11:08:39 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 09:08:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110815090748.U44209@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 15 Aug 2011, Dave Caroline wrote: > Hence my collection site only mentions donations and even if I get > asked up front before I scan something I just say donation, and just > do the scan, provide the url, and hope for the best. There are even some places that post "suggested donation amount"! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 15 11:53:34 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 17:53:34 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E493E9A.7050402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> <4E493E9A.7050402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <00eb01cc5b6b$e0265aa0$a0730fe0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Phill Harvey-Smith > Sent: 15 August 2011 16:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > > On 15/08/2011 16:16, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > You wouldn't believe the ridiculous degree to which "health and > > safety" has been taken in this country. > > > > When it snows my son's school won't let the children out to play in > > the snow, throw snow balls, make slides etc, all for fear of being sued. > > Even when I was at junior school back in the 70s we where asked not to throw > snowballs incase they contained stones (by mistake), so nothing new there. > Fine, but you were allowed out into the playground weren't you? You could make slides in the snow couldn't you? They won't even let them outside now! > > If you > > drive a company car, that is considered a place of work and you are > >not allowed to smoke in it (not that I smoke). > > That's nothing to do with H&S, that's to do with the smoking in public places > law, which makes it an offense to smoke in an enclosed public space or > workplace. I guess non-smokers have a right to not be exposed to harmfull > substances whilst doing their job. And why do we have that law, it is as you say, to protect people's health, but it is taken to extremes when it applies to company cars. > > > Some councils (local government > > in the UK) no longer decorate their town with hanging baskets of > >flowers in case one will fall on someone's head. The list goes on and on. > > > There are also a lot of people that don't know what they talk about and site > H&S as the reason. The reason for this is that there is a lot of misconception > about H&S. H&S law doesn't say that you have to prevent every possible risk, But that is how it is interpreted by many people, and also just the worry of getting a letter from a legal firm and having to justify yourself is something many people don't want to be bothered with, so they just ban everything. > just that you have to minimise them whenever possible, and that anyone > taking a risk for whatever reason should be fully aware of it. > > In the above case as long as said council had done all it reasonably could to > ensure that said hanging baskets where well maintained then they shouldn't > have a problem. OK, but what would they have to do to prove it? > > Cheers. > > PS usual disclaimer I'm not a lawyer or in anyway an expert however I am > married to the deputy departmental safety officer in a UK academic > institution....so hopefully I have picked some of it up. > > Phill. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 15 12:10:18 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:10:18 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <20110815085354.C44209@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> <20110815085354.C44209@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00ec01cc5b6e$38b2bdb0$aa183910$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 15 August 2011 17:05 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > > On Mon, 15 Aug 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I can quite believe what Tony says, particularly if it is considered a > > business. Perhaps Tony's only way out is to find a way for it not to > > be considered a business, but I don't know how he could do that. > > EXACTLY as he is doing. Well yes of course, what I was trying to say was that maybe there could be a way for him to be paid without it being called a business. Along the lines of Dave Caroline's reply. > By his refusal to accept payment, he makes it completely clear that it is NOT a > business, merely a home hobby workshop, for which many safety-nanny > requirements do not apply. > > But, even with that, there is nothing precluding him letting it be known what > gifts, including gift certificates, he would like to receive from generous people > that he helps. > > > The prosecution LOST a case near here recently against a prostitute who > advertised that she would like "assignations with generous men". > > > I think that I would far rather trust Tony's judgement rather than the guvmint > when it comes to decisions of what constitutes appropriate health and safety > measures. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Aug 15 12:12:06 2011 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:12:06 -0500 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3C0E@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Please put me down for the Midwest (Chicago area, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, iowa). Thanks! -Bob Brown Bbrown314 at comcast.net bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 8:04 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors Hi, I run the website http://oldcomputers.net I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). Thanks- Steven Stengel http://oldcomputers.net From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 15 12:22:25 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 18:22:25 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <00eb01cc5b6b$e0265aa0$a0730fe0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> <4E493E9A.7050402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00eb01cc5b6b$e0265aa0$a0730fe0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E4955D1.4030203@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 15/08/2011 17:53, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Fine, but you were allowed out into the playground weren't you? You could > make slides in the snow couldn't you? They won't even let them outside now! Whilst I don't have chidren so have no experience of this, I find it hard to believe that this is applied everywhere. >> That's nothing to do with H&S, that's to do with the smoking in public > places >> law, which makes it an offense to smoke in an enclosed public space or >> workplace. I guess non-smokers have a right to not be exposed to harmfull >> substances whilst doing their job. > > And why do we have that law, it is as you say, to protect people's health, > but it is taken to extremes when it applies to company cars. So where do you draw the line then ? Company car does not neseserraly mean single occupant. By banning it outright there's no ambiguity. Besides I believe that you are also by law meant to take regular breaks when driving, smoking can be done in those breaks. >> There are also a lot of people that don't know what they talk about and > site >> H&S as the reason. The reason for this is that there is a lot of > misconception >> about H&S. H&S law doesn't say that you have to prevent every possible > risk, > > But that is how it is interpreted by many people, and also just the worry of > getting a letter from a legal firm and having to justify yourself is > something many people don't want to be bothered with, so they just ban > everything. Then they should educate themselves, and take advice from those in the know. Of course the real problem here is the 'compensation culture' we seem to have at the moment where everything has to be someone else's fault, get rid of that and most of the supposed problems disappear. >> just that you have to minimise them whenever possible, and that anyone >> taking a risk for whatever reason should be fully aware of it. >> >> In the above case as long as said council had done all it reasonably could > to >> ensure that said hanging baskets where well maintained then they shouldn't >> have a problem. > > OK, but what would they have to do to prove it? Show documentation to the fact that the things had been checked before hanging as being fit for purpose and that the situation had been risk-assessed. I'm sorry I'm not going to bow down to the dogma of 'all H&S is bad'. For some of the myths surrounding h&s the HSE website is quite good : http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/ Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 12:32:56 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 12:32:56 -0500 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3C0E@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E0A7E3C0E@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: I think I'm already on the list, but just to be sure, I collect DEC, but can help ship almost anything in east centeral Illinois. Is the list viewable? Thanks, Paul On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Bob Brown wrote: > Please put me down for the Midwest (Chicago area, Illinois, Wisconsin, Indiana, iowa). > Thanks! > -Bob Brown > Bbrown314 at comcast.net > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 8:04 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors > > Hi, > I run the website http://oldcomputers.net > I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. > > A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! > > But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. ?I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. > > Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > > Thanks- > Steven Stengel > http://oldcomputers.net > > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 14:27:47 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:27:47 -0500 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313213547.73646.YahooMailClassic@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313213547.73646.YahooMailClassic@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: kool plzz do add me On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 12:32 AM, steven stengel wrote: > I have Ben Strewens in Wininpeg, I'll add you as well, if desired. > I don't know where else to post this request. > Please recommend, or forward it if possible! > Thanks- > Steven Stengel > http://oldcomputers.net > > > --- On Fri, 8/12/11, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > From: Adrian Stoness > > Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Date: Friday, August 12, 2011, 9:25 PM > > also have you contacted any of the > > hacker spaces? > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Adrian Stoness >wrote: > > > > > what about winnipeg canada? > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:18 PM, steve shumaker > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> No idea who you have signed up on the west coast > > but I'm in the San > > >> Francisco Bay area and could acquire items in CA > > and OR if need be. > > >> > > >> Steve Shumaker > > >> Boulder Creek, CA > > >> > > >> > > >> On 8/12/2011 6:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: > > >> > > >>> Hi, > > >>> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net > > >>> I get a lot of old computer systems offered to > > me for cheap or free, but > > >>> most I don't want - too big, or too far away > > to pay shipping. > > >>> > > >>> A while back I asked for other collectors who > > would be receptive to these > > >>> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have > > signed-up so far! > > >>> > > >>> But entire parts of the US are still open - > > the East coast is covered > > >>> pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River > > these is almost no one until > > >>> the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, > > Richard in SLC, but that's about it. > > >>> > > >>> Send me your name, email, and what you > > collect, and I'll try to get you > > >>> some good stuff (some people got some REALLY > > good stuff). > > >>> > > >>> Thanks- > > >>> Steven Stengel > > >>> http://oldcomputers.net > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 14:29:48 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 14:29:48 -0500 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: References: <1313213547.73646.YahooMailClassic@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: o and i am into dec, ge workmaster 1 and 2, heathkit, On Mon, Aug 15, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > kool plzz do add me > > > On Sat, Aug 13, 2011 at 12:32 AM, steven stengel wrote: > >> I have Ben Strewens in Wininpeg, I'll add you as well, if desired. >> I don't know where else to post this request. >> Please recommend, or forward it if possible! >> Thanks- >> Steven Stengel >> http://oldcomputers.net >> >> >> --- On Fri, 8/12/11, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >> > From: Adrian Stoness >> > Subject: Re: WANTED: More regional collectors >> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> > Date: Friday, August 12, 2011, 9:25 PM >> > also have you contacted any of the >> > hacker spaces? >> > >> > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Adrian Stoness > >wrote: >> > >> > > what about winnipeg canada? >> > > >> > > >> > > On Fri, Aug 12, 2011 at 11:18 PM, steve shumaker >> > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > >> No idea who you have signed up on the west coast >> > but I'm in the San >> > >> Francisco Bay area and could acquire items in CA >> > and OR if need be. >> > >> >> > >> Steve Shumaker >> > >> Boulder Creek, CA >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On 8/12/2011 6:03 PM, steven stengel wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> Hi, >> > >>> I run the website http://oldcomputers.net >> > >>> I get a lot of old computer systems offered to >> > me for cheap or free, but >> > >>> most I don't want - too big, or too far away >> > to pay shipping. >> > >>> >> > >>> A while back I asked for other collectors who >> > would be receptive to these >> > >>> orphaned systems, and over 60 people have >> > signed-up so far! >> > >>> >> > >>> But entire parts of the US are still open - >> > the East coast is covered >> > >>> pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River >> > these is almost no one until >> > >>> the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, >> > Richard in SLC, but that's about it. >> > >>> >> > >>> Send me your name, email, and what you >> > collect, and I'll try to get you >> > >>> some good stuff (some people got some REALLY >> > good stuff). >> > >>> >> > >>> Thanks- >> > >>> Steven Stengel >> > >>> http://oldcomputers.net >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 15 15:29:34 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:29:34 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E4955D1.4030203@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> <4E493E9A.7050402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00eb01cc5b6b$e0265aa0$a0730fe0$@ntlworld.com> <4E4955D1.4030203@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <00f001cc5b8a$0d548880$27fd9980$@ntlworld.com> The bit where I completely agree with you is the compensation culture, get rid of that and I would have little to complain about. The real villains in my view are the lawyers. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Phill Harvey-Smith > Sent: 15 August 2011 18:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > > On 15/08/2011 17:53, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > Fine, but you were allowed out into the playground weren't you? You > > could make slides in the snow couldn't you? They won't even let them > outside now! > > Whilst I don't have chidren so have no experience of this, I find it hard to > believe that this is applied everywhere. > > >> That's nothing to do with H&S, that's to do with the smoking in > >> public > > places > >> law, which makes it an offense to smoke in an enclosed public space > >> or workplace. I guess non-smokers have a right to not be exposed to > >> harmfull substances whilst doing their job. > > > > And why do we have that law, it is as you say, to protect people's > > health, but it is taken to extremes when it applies to company cars. > > So where do you draw the line then ? Company car does not neseserraly > mean single occupant. By banning it outright there's no ambiguity. > Besides I believe that you are also by law meant to take regular breaks when > driving, smoking can be done in those breaks. > > >> There are also a lot of people that don't know what they talk about > >> and > > site > >> H&S as the reason. The reason for this is that there is a lot of > > misconception > >> about H&S. H&S law doesn't say that you have to prevent every > >> possible > > risk, > > > > But that is how it is interpreted by many people, and also just the > > worry of getting a letter from a legal firm and having to justify > > yourself is something many people don't want to be bothered with, so > > they just ban everything. > > Then they should educate themselves, and take advice from those in the > know. Of course the real problem here is the 'compensation culture' we seem > to have at the moment where everything has to be someone else's fault, get > rid of that and most of the supposed problems disappear. > > >> just that you have to minimise them whenever possible, and that > >> anyone taking a risk for whatever reason should be fully aware of it. > >> > >> In the above case as long as said council had done all it reasonably > >> could > > to > >> ensure that said hanging baskets where well maintained then they > >> shouldn't have a problem. > > > > OK, but what would they have to do to prove it? > > Show documentation to the fact that the things had been checked before > hanging as being fit for purpose and that the situation had been risk-assessed. > > I'm sorry I'm not going to bow down to the dogma of 'all H&S is bad'. > > For some of the myths surrounding h&s the HSE website is quite good : > > http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/ > > Cheers. > > Phill. > > -- > Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! > > "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 15 15:18:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:18:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tony Duell's maxed out 5160 and PDP In-Reply-To: <4E4824E9.4000803@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 14, 11 03:41:29 pm Message-ID: > > On 08/14/2011 03:03 PM, John Honniball wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Obvious ones would include : > >> Particle size > >> Fusing tempearture > >> Electrical conductivity > >> Permitivity? > >> > >> Any others (and which of those really matter?) > > > > How about magnetic properites? The old DEC 03 toner was magnetically > > attracted within the printer onto a roller before being > > electrostatically attracted onto the drum. Presumably, it > > contained some iron or iron compound. > > Yes, and in fact in one engine I've seen (might have actually been > the CX or the SX, or maybe the Ricoh, I don't recall) the toner is Yes, you're right. I think both the CX and SX enginers do this. > "splayed out" by a linear magnet underneath a roller, like whiskers, to > make contact with the drum. I thought that in at least one case the roller itself was magnetic. I would think that while some printer engines would require a magnetic toner, there would be none that would rquire a non-magnetic one (if all oterh paramters were correct -- of course it may be that all materilas that meet said parameters turn out to be non-magnetic, but that's not the issue). I am going to have to dig out my copy of 'Electrophotography' and see what it says about the toner. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 15 15:25:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:25:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: mystery panel In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Jonas" at Aug 15, 11 03:28:48 am Message-ID: > > Can anyone identify the diagnostic panel? > http://ferretronix.com/march/dm160_dage/ > It's 18: DM160 indicator tubes with hand-written legends, > possibly from an AT&T 1ESS or early switch. The DM160 is a European (Philips/Mullard) number and it's quite common in European paper tape equipment, instrument control systems, etc over here. Was it commonly used _with that number_ in the States? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 15 15:15:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:15:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Aug 13, 11 09:43:24 am Message-ID: > I am curious about the information that Tony received about various > safety equipment 'required'. Perhaps this extra investment is only > required if he has employees, but not if he does the work solo. I have No, I was told that this would apply even if I was the only person in the company (and indeed in the workshop). If I am using it for work where I expect paymet, then it's a business and I have to meet all sorts of rules > no idea of the laws in the UK, but have trouble believing they are that > intrusive to a small home-based business. > > As long as Tony is declaring his income sources I fail to see where he > would run into any problems - considering that I doubt he would be Ypu've not met the ridiculous red tape we have in the UK... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 15 15:46:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 21:46:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 15, 11 04:16:59 pm Message-ID: > I can quite believe what Tony says, particularly if it is considered a > business. Perhaps Tony's only way out is to find a way for it not to be > considered a business, but I don't know how he could do that. > Exactly... There is a very easy way for it not to be a business, and that's for me to use said workshop for my hobby, not making any money doing it. It is perfectly legal for me to enjoy myself fixing old computers, making clocks, etc in this way uysing whatever tools I like with no safety requirements at all. It is also legal for me to allow friends to come into my workshop (they are then repsonsible for their own actions). But if I make mony, it's a business and has to meet said safety requiurements. Since this would cost a lot more than I could ever make back from said business, it makes more sense to me to ru8n it as a hobby, and if j-random-HP-enthusiast wants to fix his card reader, he can pop over with said unit. Even if I do all the metal turning, there is no problem if I don't charge him. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 15 18:43:25 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 00:43:25 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E493E9A.7050402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> <4E493E9A.7050402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4E49AF1D.3020702@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/08/2011 16:43, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 15/08/2011 16:16, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> You wouldn't believe the ridiculous degree to which "health and >> safety" has >> been taken in this country. >> Some councils (local government >> in the UK) no longer decorate their town with hanging baskets of >> flowers in >> case one will fall on someone's head. The list goes on and on. > > There are also a lot of people that don't know what they talk about and > site H&S as the reason. The reason for this is that there is a lot of > misconception about H&S. H&S law doesn't say that you have to prevent > every possible risk, just that you have to minimise them whenever > possible, and that anyone taking a risk for whatever reason should be > fully aware of it. Phill is absolutely correct. If you surf the HSE website you'll even find a set of pages making fun of the more silly claims that are made in the name of H&S, and explaining what the reality is. Google "Myth of the Month". They've also made several statements in the press in recent years, particularly aimed at overzealous application of "health and safety" to children at play. I'm curious about Tony's alleged requirements for all sorts of safety equipment; what they were and where they came from, because I know HSE don't generally make much fuss about small self-employed operations. That's not to say there aren't regulations they would enforce, but I'd not expect them to be onerous. For example, I know places that don't have specific fume extractions for soldering stations, if they have a room extractor fan or other ventilation. I think Tony would have more hassle from insurance (for a business) than from the HSE. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Aug 15 19:20:36 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 01:20:36 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <00eb01cc5b6b$e0265aa0$a0730fe0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20110813092714.U69797@shell.lmi.net> <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> <4E493E9A.7050402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00eb01cc5b6b$e0265aa0$a0730fe0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E49B7D4.10501@philpem.me.uk> On 15/08/11 17:53, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> > >> > That's nothing to do with H&S, that's to do with the smoking in public > places >> > law, which makes it an offense to smoke in an enclosed public space or >> > workplace. I guess non-smokers have a right to not be exposed to harmfull >> > substances whilst doing their job. > > And why do we have that law, it is as you say, to protect people's health, > but it is taken to extremes when it applies to company cars. And a good 80% of smokers ignore it anyway. Bus stations, transport interchanges (combined bus/rail stations), bus shelters and train stations are really bad for this... funnily enough there's usually a large congregation around the "No Smoking" signs... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Aug 15 19:32:52 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 20:32:52 -0400 Subject: WANTED: More regional collectors In-Reply-To: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E49BAB4.8010305@compsys.to> Please add Toronto, Ontario, Canada to your list. While my primary interest is a PDP-11 Qbus system, I will attempt to help co-ordinate any other rescues for individuals who have other interests. Jerome Fine >steven stengel wrote: >Hi, >I run the website http://oldcomputers.net >I get a lot of old computer systems offered to me for cheap or free, but most I don't want - too big, or too far away to pay shipping. > >A while back I asked for other collectors who would be receptive to these orphaned systems, and over 60 people have signed-up so far! > >But entire parts of the US are still open - the East coast is covered pretty well, but west of the Mississippi River these is almost no one until the coast. I've got Nathan in Iowa, Richard in SLC, but that's about it. > >Send me your name, email, and what you collect, and I'll try to get you some good stuff (some people got some REALLY good stuff). > >Thanks- >Steven Stengel >http://oldcomputers.net > From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Mon Aug 15 21:48:25 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:48:25 -0700 Subject: Teraks on eBay In-Reply-To: <4E4857A3.301@bitsavers.org> References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <201108142128.p7ELSsGU058009@billy.ezwind.net> <4E4857A3.301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I too, HAVE made a bid. I live near tucson, AZ and while I am interested in only one, and if I win, I will gladly ship the unit to any interested party!!! On Sun, Aug 14, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/14/11 2:27 PM, John Foust wrote: > >> >> There's two Teraks on eBay at 320744126002 . They look pretty rough. >> (Pack rats, the rodent kind.) Pick-up only in Tucson, AZ. I received >> an email from the seller and have asked what's on the floppies. >> >> - John >> >> >> >> > well, I may go after these for the software and the extra keyboard. I have > four units, two monitors, and no keyboards. > > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Aug 16 02:07:28 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 03:07:28 -0400 Subject: mystery panel Message-ID: >> Can anyone identify the diagnostic panel? >> http://ferretronix.com/march/dm160_dage/ >> It's 18: DM160 indicator tubes with hand-written legends, >> possibly from an AT&T 1ESS or early switch. > The DM160 is a European (Philips/Mullard) number and it's quite common in > European paper tape equipment, instrument control systems, etc over here. > Was it commonly used _with that number_ in the States? It had a industrial number of 6977 as well, but most commonly I've seen it called the DM160 even here in the states. The Soviet equivalent is the IV-15. All seem to be readily available today from a number of sources (e.g. tube houses, E-bay, etc.) Tim. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Aug 16 02:14:22 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:14:22 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 15, 11 04:16:59 pm Message-ID: <9395E03E02234F9D8FC66063DFA9A2F2@RODSDEVSYSTEM> It's probably obvious but surely you only start to make money once you have covered the costs. ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 15 August 2011 21:46 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > I can quite believe what Tony says, particularly if it is considered a > business. Perhaps Tony's only way out is to find a way for it not to be > considered a business, but I don't know how he could do that. > Exactly... There is a very easy way for it not to be a business, and that's for me to use said workshop for my hobby, not making any money doing it. It is perfectly legal for me to enjoy myself fixing old computers, making clocks, etc in this way uysing whatever tools I like with no safety requirements at all. It is also legal for me to allow friends to come into my workshop (they are then repsonsible for their own actions). But if I make mony, it's a business and has to meet said safety requiurements. Since this would cost a lot more than I could ever make back from said business, it makes more sense to me to ru8n it as a hobby, and if j-random-HP-enthusiast wants to fix his card reader, he can pop over with said unit. Even if I do all the metal turning, there is no problem if I don't charge him. -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 02:41:01 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:41:01 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <9395E03E02234F9D8FC66063DFA9A2F2@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> <9395E03E02234F9D8FC66063DFA9A2F2@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: Actually the costs are significant so what may appear profit at first are only partly covering equipment ,costs of sourcing manuals, etc, in my case internet hosting of the catalogue I doubt the electricity cost is covered by this years donations so far. Dave Caroline On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 8:14 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > It's probably obvious but surely you only start to make money once you have > covered the costs. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 15 August 2011 21:46 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 > >> I can quite believe what Tony says, particularly if it is considered a >> business. Perhaps Tony's only way out is to find a way for it not to be >> considered a business, but I don't know how he could do that. >> > Exactly... > > There is a very easy way for it not to be a business, and that's for me > to use said workshop for my hobby, not making any money doing it. It is > perfectly legal for me to enjoy myself fixing old computers, making > clocks, etc in this way uysing whatever tools I like with no safety > requirements at all. > > It is also legal for me to allow friends to come into my workshop (they > are then repsonsible for their own actions). > > But if I make mony, it's a business and has to meet said safety > requiurements. Since this would cost a lot more than I could ever make > back from said business, it makes more sense to me to ru8n it as a hobby, > and if j-random-HP-enthusiast wants to fix his card reader, he can pop > over with said unit. Even if I do all the metal turning, there is no > problem if I don't charge him. > > -tony > > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 02:46:04 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 08:46:04 +0100 Subject: mystery panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I looked on fleabay...damn the 16 unused DM160 I have are not so valuable! Dave Caroline On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 8:07 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> Can anyone identify the diagnostic panel? >>> ? ? ?http://ferretronix.com/march/dm160_dage/ >>> It's 18: DM160 indicator tubes with hand-written legends, >>> possibly from an AT&T 1ESS or early switch. > >> The DM160 is a European (Philips/Mullard) number and it's quite common in >> European paper tape equipment, instrument control systems, etc over here. >> Was it commonly used _with that number_ in the States? > > It had a industrial number of 6977 as well, but most commonly I've seen it called > the DM160 even here in the states. > > The Soviet equivalent is the IV-15. > > All seem to be readily available today from a number of sources (e.g. tube houses, E-bay, etc.) > > Tim. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 16 09:05:26 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 07:05:26 -0700 Subject: Teraks on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <4E440705.9070802@bitsavers.org> <201108142128.p7ELSsGU058009@billy.ezwind.net> <4E4857A3.301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E4A7926.8000002@bitsavers.org> On 8/15/11 7:48 PM, Tom publix wrote: > I too, HAVE made a bid. I live near tucson, AZ and while I am interested in > only one, and if I win, I will gladly ship the unit to any interested > party!!! > Fine, talk to Richard then. All I was interested in was one of the keyboards. I'm out of this.. From grant at stockly.com Tue Aug 16 12:38:39 2011 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 09:38:39 -0800 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> Message-ID: > > > > Ypu've not met the ridiculous red tape we have in the UK... > > -tony > > It's almost as bad in the US. They don't come in and make you install saw guards, but if you don't have a tax attourney they will claim that anything above a loss can't be a hobby and is self employment income. A Nascar team or horse breeder can be a (profit generating) hobby, but according to the IRS making kits has a profit motive even when it is only 5% of your claimed income. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 16 13:57:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 19:57:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E49AF1D.3020702@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 16, 11 00:43:25 am Message-ID: > Phill is absolutely correct. If you surf the HSE website you'll even > find a set of pages making fun of the more silly claims that are made in Indeed. I am sure many of the more silly ones come from the 'compensation culture' and a desire to avoid being sued. > I'm curious about Tony's alleged requirements for all sorts of safety > equipment; what they were and where they came from, because I know HSE > don't generally make much fuss about small self-employed operations. I cna't rememebr the exact source, but it was 'official', possibly somebody at the DTI. I was told that if I used my hobby workshop for business (meaning I was doing work for money), even if I was the only person there and the only person in said businsess, then I would have to have various guards on my machine tools, I would have to have fume extraction on the soldering iron, and so on. >From what I've heard, one-man clock repairers (who not suprisingly use lathes) have been hassled by safety officiers about such things. And here we come to the problem. Even if I am in the right and I don't legally require, say, a fume extrraction set-up, I have neither the time nor the money to do battle in court. I'd much rather be fixing old computers, etc, than battling with officials. Period. And then there's the question of 'is it worth it'. I am not pestered by people who want me to fix their machines or make parts for them. Yes, I am asked -- a lot -- for advice, but that's a diffrent matter, and doesn't have any legal implications. Think of a repair you might want me to do for you. Now think how much you'd want to pay for it. And then how many such repairs I might get in a year. The conculsion I quickly came to was that it simply wasn't worth it. Yes, it's worth me stickign a bit of 7/8" brass rod in the 3-jaw amd making a hub for an HP9810 card reader for a fellow HPCC member. But given that if I did it commercially, I'd have many more expenses (insurance, possible safety upgrades ot th workshop, etc), and that I'd be lucky to sell 10 a year at, perhaps \pounds 5.00 each, I don't see it being worthwhile. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 16 14:01:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 20:01:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E49B7D4.10501@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 16, 11 01:20:36 am Message-ID: > > And a good 80% of smokers ignore it anyway. Bus stations, transport > interchanges (combined bus/rail stations), bus shelters and train I thought that smoking was allowed in bus shelteres if less than 50% of the walls were there (if you see what I mean). Not that I intend to smoke.... I did however hear the following announceent at Hammersmith bus station : 'You are reminded that smoking is prohibited within this bus station. This includes the drivers hiding behind their buses' -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 14:42:03 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 20:42:03 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E49AF1D.3020702@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Funny you should mention clock makers and their workshops, that was the job I got made redundant from and I did take some equipment pictures before we cleared the place, some machines are now at home as an addition to the redundancy payment so that I can do work. http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works/ Some may fall off their chairs at those pics, but in some cases you just cannot do the work in a way some HS person may think is safe. eg we hand turn with a graver, the wheel cutter is a wonder with the open and above rubber belt/rope but sticking fingers in it was safe (ish) because the friction is very low and just causes a stall (uses stored energy in the spindle) Yes this one bites http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works/P1010234.JPG and was a bugger to set up and was the bosses toy, I kept well clear, far safer to use http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works/P1010235.JPG even if it looks just as bad These 1950's and earlier machines were safe in experienced hands when used properly, I still have all my flesh although the boss lost a bit, he had a .8 MOD gear slot in a finger because he was feeling for the cutter to vibrate the stock and had his finger wrong side. There are places where guards positively make a job more dangerous or impossible to do. Back in the old days a few cuts and bruises were the best way to teach safety. Those grazed knees did more than hurt a bit as a kid, they taught one to be careful of falling over. Dave Caroline From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 14:47:02 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:47:02 -0400 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> Message-ID: > It's almost as bad in the US. ?They don't come in and make you install saw > guards, but if you don't have a tax attourney they will claim that anything > above a loss can't be a hobby and is self employment income. > > A Nascar team or horse breeder can be a (profit generating) hobby, but > according to the IRS making kits has a profit motive even when it is only 5% > of your claimed income. Lets be realistic here. The IRS does not have the manpower to go chase after someone that is making a few thousand on the side as a hobby business. They have bigger fish to catch. And if someone with a little "hobby business" does get audited, it is extremely easy to bury the profit with writeoffs. I know quite a few people in the US, and even some in the UK, that have turned a basement electronics hobby into a business, and somehow everyone seems to be cool with the government and make money. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 16 15:47:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 13:47:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> Message-ID: <20110816131903.F85249@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > Lets be realistic here. THIS group?? > The IRS does not have the manpower to go chase after someone that is > making a few thousand on the side as a hobby business. They have > bigger fish to catch. And if someone with a little "hobby business" > does get audited, it is extremely easy to bury the profit with > writeoffs. Actually, some IRS agents consider home businesses and small sole proprietorships to be "low hanging fruit". They OFTEN audit home businesses, and some things, such as operation at a home are flags that significantly increase likelihood of audit. Especially if the business operates at a loss. (Contrary to internet, there is NOT a "law" that a business must make a profit 2 years out of every 5, nor any other such defined limit. Instead, determination of "business" V "hobby" is very loosely defined, and to a large extent determined by the whim of the agent, based on things such as, "is the intent of the enterprise 'to make a profit'?", "is it conducted with conventional business practices?", "business type location?", "regular hours?", advertising?, interaction with people not already known to proprietor?, etc. with NONE of those being sole determinator. The "hobby" V "business", although not readily objectively determinable, is VERY important. If there is gross profit, then the IRS wants tax forms. If there is net profit, then it IS taxable. If there are recurring losses, the IRS may decide that it is a "hobby businesess" and disallow any losses or expenses past the gross. A home business is much more likely to get such restrictions than a big business that might ALSO operate at a loss for many years, since that is much more clearly "not a hobby". > I know quite a few people in the US, and even some in the UK, that > have turned a basement electronics hobby into a business, and somehow > everyone seems to be cool with the government and make money. In the USA, if the business is making money and paying taxes, very little else matters. If Al Capone were to have paid his taxes, it might have become president. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 16:00:21 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 17:00:21 -0400 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <20110816131903.F85249@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <20110816131903.F85249@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Actually, some IRS agents consider home businesses and small sole > proprietorships to be "low hanging fruit". ?They OFTEN audit home > businesses, This is true ONLY for those home business that are greedy - trying to deduct too much, for example. Living beyond the means of the business income is another. Or too many cash or check deposits at the bank. As long as you have half a brain, and not try to cheat too much - no audits. Simple. And those "low hanging fruit" are those hobby businesses that are pulling in $50K plus... -- Will, son of a CPA From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 17:29:52 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 15:29:52 -0700 Subject: IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units Message-ID: Local but too BIG for me! IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=602003 current bid @ $1.00 From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 18:01:46 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 00:01:46 +0100 Subject: IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: one could live off the scrap money you could make at that price /me ducks Dave Caroline 2011/8/16 Tom publix : > Local but too BIG for me! > > IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units > > http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=602003 > > current bid @ $1.00 > From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 16 21:25:15 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 21:25:15 -0500 Subject: Northern Telecom DisplayPhone? In-Reply-To: <4E29361E.30101@brouhaha.com> References: <4E29361E.30101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 3:34 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > The AT&T 510a, made by Convergent? Finally went and checked it out...yep, that's the one :) From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Aug 17 01:26:15 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:26:15 +0200 Subject: IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80c4764f39dc428aada2159dd48bb3a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Local but too BIG for me! > > IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units > > http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=602003 > > current bid @ $1.00 > Hmm, 2 Decwriters are offered too (in Oklahoma) http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=601324 -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From oe5ewl at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 01:30:43 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 08:30:43 +0200 Subject: IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2 decwriters are also available. http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=601324 -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/8/17 Dave Caroline > one could live off the scrap money you could make at that price > /me ducks > > Dave Caroline > > 2011/8/16 Tom publix : > > Local but too BIG for me! > > > > IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units > > > > http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=602003 > > > > current bid @ $1.00 > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Aug 17 10:22:36 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:22:36 +0100 Subject: cables, free for postage (York, UK) Message-ID: <4E4BDCBC.5050907@dunnington.plus.com> It's tidy-the-workshop time (or as her indoors put it, can't you get rid of some of that junk). So I have quite a big box of surplus cables to get rid of. Some are only fit for an advert on freecycle (assorted long lengths of 3-core manis cable, umpteen RJ45 Ethernet cables), but I thought the more classiccmp-ish ones might be of more interest here. Any or all for the cost of the postage: DB25M - DB25F 8-wire screened 2m DB25M - DB25M 25-wire 10m 50HD - 50-"Centronics style" SCSI 1m DB25M - 50-"Centronics style" genuine HP SCSI 1m DB25M - 50-"Centronics style" SCSI 0.5m DB 13W3 - DB 13W3 Sun screened monitor cable, beige 1.2m DB 13W3 - DB 13W3 SGI screened monitor cable, granite 1.2m (for Indy/Indigo^2) DB 13W3 - DB 13W3 SGI screened monitor cable, beige 3m (for Indigo) DE9M - DE9F Sun screened monitor cable, 1m (for BW framebuffer) DE9M - DE9F Taxan screened monitor cable, 1m (brand new in bag) HD15M-HD15M Sun VGA cable beige 1.8m HD15M-HD15F VGA cable beige 2m HD15M-HD15F VGA cable high quality black 2m (brand new in bag) HD15M-HD15M PC VGA cable good quality beige 1.8m HD15M-HD15M VGA cable PC quality black 2m (brand new) HD15M-HD15M VGA cable PC quality black 2m (brand new in bag) DVI-D - DVI-D cable black 1.8m (brand new in bag) 2 x DE9F - DE9F HP serial cable (null-modem) black 2m DE9F - RJ45 HP serial cable (for Procurve/Cisco switch console) black 2m plus a few SGI and other PS/2 mice. But I'd like to know quickly if anyone wants any, so I can advertise leftovers with the rest of the box on Freecycle. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 14:23:29 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 12:23:29 -0700 Subject: IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Or THIS..... http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=584642 Whassit??? Always curious when I see a a backplane, boards and 8" or 51/4" floppy drives!! From drb at msu.edu Wed Aug 17 14:32:43 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:32:43 -0400 Subject: Surplus auction (was Re: IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 17 Aug 2011 12:23:29 PDT.) References: Message-ID: <20110817193243.D9C03326B05@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Or THIS..... > http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=584642 > Whassit??? Looks like small phone system parts. De From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 17 14:39:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:39:40 -0400 Subject: IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E4C18FC.5030700@neurotica.com> On 08/17/2011 03:23 PM, Tom publix wrote: > Or THIS..... > http://www.publicsurplus.com/sms/auction/view?auc=584642 > > Whassit??? > > Always curious when I see a a backplane, boards and 8" or 51/4" floppy > drives!! The bottom two card cages are Microcom modem racks; I've run exactly that model in production. The stuff to the left appears to be a few CSU/DSUs for leased lines. The top card cage with the 5.25" floppy drives is more interesting. I don't recognize it, but it's made by DCA, who made almost exclusively telecom equipment. But with floppy drives? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 14:45:46 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:45:46 -0500 Subject: IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units In-Reply-To: <4E4C18FC.5030700@neurotica.com> References: <4E4C18FC.5030700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: it prolly was some sorta system you could load software on for checking peak and such that was hooked into a terminal On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/17/2011 03:23 PM, Tom publix wrote: > >> Or THIS..... >> http://www.publicsurplus.com/**sms/auction/view?auc=584642 >> >> Whassit??? >> >> Always curious when I see a a backplane, boards and 8" or 51/4" floppy >> drives!! >> > > The bottom two card cages are Microcom modem racks; I've run exactly that > model in production. The stuff to the left appears to be a few CSU/DSUs for > leased lines. > > The top card cage with the 5.25" floppy drives is more interesting. I > don't recognize it, but it's made by DCA, who made almost exclusively > telecom equipment. But with floppy drives? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 17 14:17:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:17:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Aug 16, 11 08:42:03 pm Message-ID: > > Funny you should mention clock makers and their workshops, that was Well, horology has been an interest of mine for many years. It is my intention to make a clock sometime (that's a real mechanical clock, of course, I've made plenty of electronci ones already). > Some may fall off their chairs at those pics, but in some cases you > just cannot do the work in a way some HS person may think is safe. Same applies to electronic reapirs, of course. I had a run-in with a safety officer who objected to any bare wires/contacts at all, even those carrying 5V logic singals -- and this was in a research lab. You know as well as I do that it's impossible to desgin something if you can't connct a 'scope to any point you want without having to unscrew a covr, connect the probe and screw the cover back again. But anyway... > > eg we hand turn with a graver, the wheel cutter is a wonder with the > open and above rubber belt/rope I don;t have a wheel cutting engine (I would use a dividing head on a milling set-up). I do have some specialised clock/watch tools, like a set of hand-bowed turns., jacot tool, mainswring winder, staking set, etc. Not terribly useful, but I acquired an old, valved watch timing machine. It's quit an interesting piece of electronics and combines 2 of my hobbies :-) > but sticking fingers in it was safe (ish) because the friction is very > low and just causes a stall (uses stored energy in the spindle) Quite apart from the fact that uou know not to stick your fingers in a running amchine tool. I've used plenty of tools here that could inflict serious injury, but they don't becasue I know what they are capable of and take care. Mind you I really must rememebr that the flutes on a slot drill are cutting edges, and taht it's a bad idea to pick on up by said flutes, even when stationary.... > Back in the old days a few cuts and bruises were the best way to teach safety. I am incluned to agree with you. You can make things too safe IMHO. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 17 14:21:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:21:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Aug 16, 11 03:47:02 pm Message-ID: > > > It's almost as bad in the US. =A0They don't come in and make you instal= > l saw > > guards, but if you don't have a tax attourney they will claim that anyt= > hing > > above a loss can't be a hobby and is self employment income. > > > > A Nascar team or horse breeder can be a (profit generating) hobby, but > > according to the IRS making kits has a profit motive even when it is on= > ly 5% > > of your claimed income. > > Lets be realistic here. Do you have direct expeirence of the behaviour of the Inland Revenue Service in other countries? > > The IRS does not have the manpower to go chase after someone that is I would not bet on that in the UK. > making a few thousand on the side as a hobby business. They have > bigger fish to catch. And if someone with a little "hobby business" Problem is that over here the size of the 'fish' doesn't matter, only that they've caught one. > does get audited, it is extremely easy to bury the profit with > writeoffs. > > I know quite a few people in the US, and even some in the UK, that > have turned a basement electronics hobby into a business, and somehow > everyone seems to be cool with the government and make money. AFAIK, this would not have been a problem for me. Sure I would have had to declare all the income from my hobby/businsess, and possibly pay tax on it, but that is not what stopped be from running said business. Provided yuo make that declaration and keep reasonable records (accounts, etc) then there is no problem. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 15:18:43 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:18:43 -0400 Subject: mystery panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I looked on fleabay...damn the 16 unused DM160 I have are not so valuable! Not worthless either. There are a lot of sockets for these out in the real world, in industrial controllers. There will be a need for 6977s for many, many more years. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 17 15:36:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 13:36:26 -0700 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: from "Dave Caroline" at Aug 16, 11 08:42:03 pm, Message-ID: <4E4BC3DA.27426.1240C86@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Aug 2011 at 20:17, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, horology has been an interest of mine for many years... Me too...no, scratch that--no "w"... --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 15:43:05 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 21:43:05 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you need gears making :) gears.archivist.info Dave On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Funny you should mention clock makers and their workshops, that was > > Well, horology has been an interest of mine for many years. It is my > intention to make a clock sometime (that's a real mechanical clock, of > course, I've made plenty of electronci ones already). > >> Some may fall off their chairs at those pics, but in some cases you >> just cannot do the work in a way some HS person may think is safe. > > Same applies to electronic reapirs, of course. I had a run-in with a > safety officer who objected to any bare wires/contacts at all, even those > carrying 5V logic singals -- and this was in a research lab. You know as > well as I do that it's impossible to desgin something if you can't connct > a 'scope to any point you want without having to unscrew a covr, connect > the probe and screw the cover back again. But anyway... > > >> >> eg we hand turn with a graver, the wheel cutter is a wonder with the >> open and above rubber belt/rope > > I don;t have a wheel cutting engine (I would use a dividing head on a > milling set-up). I do have some specialised clock/watch tools, like a set > of hand-bowed turns., jacot tool, mainswring winder, staking set, etc. > > Not terribly useful, but I acquired an old, valved watch timing machine. > It's quit an interesting piece of electronics and combines 2 of my > hobbies :-) > >> but sticking fingers in it was safe (ish) because the friction is very >> low and just causes a stall (uses stored energy in the spindle) > > Quite apart from the fact that uou know not to stick your fingers in a > running amchine tool. I've used plenty of tools here that could inflict > serious injury, but they don't becasue I know what they are capable of > and take care. > > Mind you I really must rememebr that the flutes on a slot drill are > cutting edges, and taht it's a bad idea to pick on up by said flutes, > even when stationary.... > >> Back in the old days a few cuts and bruises were the best way to teach safety. > > I am incluned to agree with you. You can make things too safe IMHO. > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 17 16:23:03 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E4BC3DA.27426.1240C86@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Dave Caroline" at Aug 16, 11 08:42:03 pm, <4E4BC3DA.27426.1240C86@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110817142227.Q25290@shell.lmi.net> > > Well, horology has been an interest of mine for many years... > > Me too...no, scratch that--no "w"... horology and whoring-around need not be mutually exclusive From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 17 16:32:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 17:32:52 -0400 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <20110817142227.Q25290@shell.lmi.net> References: from "Dave Caroline" at Aug 16, 11 08:42:03 pm, <4E4BC3DA.27426.1240C86@cclist.sydex.com> <20110817142227.Q25290@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E4C3384.9020907@neurotica.com> On 08/17/2011 05:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Well, horology has been an interest of mine for many years... >> >> Me too...no, scratch that--no "w"... > > horology and whoring-around need not be mutually exclusive In fact, one can do both at the same time! Heck, I know what I'm doing this weekend! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 17 16:52:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 14:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E4C3384.9020907@neurotica.com> References: from "Dave Caroline" at Aug 16, 11 08:42:03 pm, <4E4BC3DA.27426.1240C86@cclist.sydex.com> <20110817142227.Q25290@shell.lmi.net> <4E4C3384.9020907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110817145049.P25290@shell.lmi.net> > >>> Well, horology has been an interest of mine for many years... > >> > >> Me too...no, scratch that--no "w"... > > > > horology and whoring-around need not be mutually exclusive > > In fact, one can do both at the same time! Both tend to be oriented towards keeping track of time > Heck, I know what I'm doing this weekend! ;) both can be expensive From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 17 18:49:36 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:49:36 -0700 Subject: IBM3480 A22 w/3 B22 units In-Reply-To: References: <4E4C18FC.5030700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E4C5390.4060602@jwsss.com> The part numbers in the listing, "Panasonic KX-E400, Sharp UX-P100 etc - Will not ship*" are for a printer and fax machine (respectively). So one really has to wonder what Gunslinger71 got for his $1.00. For that price, you can't complain much. Anyone here that person? Jim > it prolly was some sorta system you could load software on for checking peak > and such that was hooked into a terminal > > On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 2:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 08/17/2011 03:23 PM, Tom publix wrote: >> >>> Or THIS..... >>> http://www.publicsurplus.com/**sms/auction/view?auc=584642 >>> >>> Whassit??? >>> >>> Always curious when I see a a backplane, boards and 8" or 51/4" floppy >>> drives!! >>> >> The bottom two card cages are Microcom modem racks; I've run exactly that >> model in production. The stuff to the left appears to be a few CSU/DSUs for >> leased lines. >> >> The top card cage with the 5.25" floppy drives is more interesting. I >> don't recognize it, but it's made by DCA, who made almost exclusively >> telecom equipment. But with floppy drives? >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> > From grant at stockly.com Wed Aug 17 19:21:23 2011 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:21:23 -0800 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:47 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > It's almost as bad in the US. They don't come in and make you install > saw > > guards, but if you don't have a tax attourney they will claim that > anything > > above a loss can't be a hobby and is self employment income. > > > > A Nascar team or horse breeder can be a (profit generating) hobby, but > > according to the IRS making kits has a profit motive even when it is only > 5% > > of your claimed income. > > Lets be realistic here. > > The IRS does not have the manpower to go chase after someone that is > making a few thousand on the side as a hobby business. They have > bigger fish to catch. And if someone with a little "hobby business" > does get audited, it is extremely easy to bury the profit with > writeoffs. It happened to me. They wouldn't give up. Paying the $1000 or so in taxes and interest was easier than fighting after about 6 months of correspondance. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 17 19:36:20 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:36:20 -0400 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> Message-ID: <4E4C5E84.6050909@telegraphics.com.au> On 17/08/11 8:21 PM, Grant Stockly wrote: > On Tue, Aug 16, 2011 at 11:47 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> It's almost as bad in the US. They don't come in and make you install >> saw >>> guards, but if you don't have a tax attourney they will claim that >> anything >>> above a loss can't be a hobby and is self employment income. >>> >>> A Nascar team or horse breeder can be a (profit generating) hobby, but >>> according to the IRS making kits has a profit motive even when it is only >> 5% >>> of your claimed income. >> >> Lets be realistic here. >> >> The IRS does not have the manpower to go chase after someone that is >> making a few thousand on the side as a hobby business. They have >> bigger fish to catch. And if someone with a little "hobby business" >> does get audited, it is extremely easy to bury the profit with >> writeoffs. > > > It happened to me. They wouldn't give up. Paying the $1000 or so in taxes > and interest was easier than fighting after about 6 months of > correspondance. > This is officially the most boring OT thread in history. zzzzZZ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 17 19:43:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:43:37 -0400 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E4C5E84.6050909@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <4E4C5E84.6050909@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E4C6039.9060301@neurotica.com> On 08/17/2011 08:36 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Lets be realistic here. >>> >>> The IRS does not have the manpower to go chase after someone that is >>> making a few thousand on the side as a hobby business. They have >>> bigger fish to catch. And if someone with a little "hobby business" >>> does get audited, it is extremely easy to bury the profit with >>> writeoffs. >> >> >> It happened to me. They wouldn't give up. Paying the $1000 or so in taxes >> and interest was easier than fighting after about 6 months of >> correspondance. >> > > This is officially the most boring OT thread in history. > > > zzzzZZ Wow, and look! Your new mail client has...[gasp]...a DELETE button! What will they think of next?! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Aug 17 20:24:20 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:24:20 -0500 Subject: bounty for tool organizer Message-ID: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/photo.JPG I have one of these bin/toolOrganizers (made by rubbermaid) on my home techbench. Love it. I'm looking for another one for my work techbench, but apparently they are no longer made and my google & ebay searches have come up dry. Anyone have one, or know where I can get another one of these? What's a fair bounty for finding one - $20? Jay From d235j.1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 17 23:38:13 2011 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 00:38:13 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Xpanse PN400 PCI to NuBus chassis ROM v3.5 Message-ID: Hi all, I just came into the possession of an Xpanse PCI-to-NuBus chassis, much like the one here: http://web.archive.org/web/20061018024944/http://www.2ndwave.com/details.asp?ProductID=53 However, it has the 3.4 ROM, which is incompatible with the Beige G3, which is the primary . Does anyone out there have a v3.5 ROM, and is willing to provide a dump? The ROM is located on the PCI card, in a socket. If anyone knows how to reach the company, this would be helpful, but they seem to be out of business. Thanks! --Dave From halarewich at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 05:40:46 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 03:40:46 -0700 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> Message-ID: hey on the bottom of the caddy is there a part # chris On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Jay West wrote: > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/photo.JPG > > I have one of these bin/toolOrganizers (made by rubbermaid) on my home > techbench. Love it. I'm looking for another one for my work techbench, but > apparently they are no longer made and my google & ebay searches have come > up dry. Anyone have one, or know where I can get another one of these? > What's a fair bounty for finding one - $20? > > Jay > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 10:17:02 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 11:17:02 -0400 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E4C6039.9060301@neurotica.com> References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <4E4C5E84.6050909@telegraphics.com.au> <4E4C6039.9060301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Wow, and look! ?Your new mail client has...[gasp]...a DELETE button! ?What > will they think of next?! A bobbing glass "bird" filled with dichloromethane that pecks the delete key for you? -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 18 10:54:36 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <9395E03E02234F9D8FC66063DFA9A2F2@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 15, 11 04:16:59 pm <9395E03E02234F9D8FC66063DFA9A2F2@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <20110818085234.D45522@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 16 Aug 2011, Rod Smallwood wrote: > It's probably obvious but surely you only start to make money once you have > covered the costs. Covering the costs by charging for your work is considered to be "re-investment of profits" (which ARE likely to be taxable) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 18 11:18:12 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:18:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <20110816131903.F85249@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110818085601.G45522@shell.lmi.net> > > Actually, some IRS agents consider home businesses and small sole > > proprietorships to be "low hanging fruit". ?They OFTEN audit home > > businesses, On Tue, 16 Aug 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > This is true ONLY for those home business that are greedy - WRONG I might be the greediest SOB who ever walked the earth' OK, we will ASSUME that, and you are the least greedy, most altruistic saint, . . . > trying to > deduct too much, for example. Living beyond the means of the business > income is another. Or too many cash or check deposits at the bank. > As long as you have half a brain, and not try to cheat too much - no > audits. Simple. WRONG. Selection for audit is NOT based on CHEATING, although admittedly it may sometimes be based on the perception that there is a POSSIBILITY of cheating. Operating at a loss with a home business can get you audited, even if you are the least greedy, most altruistic saint. Just checking the "use of home" box on the schedule C more than doubnles your chance of being audited. If you are creating a retail product, OR have significant expenses to bring your workshop up to code, you ARE likely to operate at a loss for a while, and ARE likely to get audited. > And those "low hanging fruit" are those hobby businesses that are > pulling in $50K plus... WRONG. operating at a loss of a $1K with a gross of ~$10K WHILE developing a product can do it. > Will, son of a CPA Then you are well aware that preparation for an audit for somebody who is not a good bookkeepper is major punishment, no matter how honest you are. You know what is or isn't deductible. Howzbout the $35 per month that you electric bill went up? Do you need to go through your home workshop to get to the washing machine? Do you store any of your hobby materials in a corner of your office? Do you let your kid play in a corner of your office, or use your office computer(s) to play games? You know all of the details about 1099 issuance. Do you file one for your landlord for commercial property that you rent to avoid audits by working out of home? Do you file one for the gardener that your commercial landlord requires ($15 per week)? How about the commercial artist who designs your ad? How about your CPA? Who is or isn't an "employee"? How about that gardener? If you do a tradeshow to advertise your product, which of those expenses are deductible? When I was audited for filing a schedule C, the auditor did want to make multiple changes, in both directions, and ended up finding that I was due back a few hundred more dollars. That was "declared a wash". Cheating? NO. Not having a CPA in the family to make your tax forms look nice. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 18 11:23:49 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:23:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> Message-ID: <20110818091927.U45522@shell.lmi.net> > > The IRS does not have the manpower to go chase after someone that is > > making a few thousand on the side as a hobby business. They have > > bigger fish to catch. And if someone with a little "hobby business" > > does get audited, it is extremely easy to bury the profit with > > writeoffs. On Wed, 17 Aug 2011, Grant Stockly wrote: > It happened to me. They wouldn't give up. Paying the $1000 or so in taxes > and interest was easier than fighting after about 6 months of > correspondance. That's just because we are greedy and stubborn! Taking out a loan to build the business and paying that off out of part of the profits over 10 years is OK. Using all of the gross to bootstrap the business and not having any NET profits for 5 is NOT. Even with the same dollar numbers. Folding a business at the first sign of poor profitability is OK. Continuing to try while developing more new products is not. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 18 11:26:08 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:26:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <4E4C5E84.6050909@telegraphics.com.au> <4E4C6039.9060301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110818092427.P45522@shell.lmi.net> > > ?Wow, and look! ?Your new mail client has...[gasp]...a DELETE button! ?What > > will they think of next?! > A bobbing glass "bird" filled with dichloromethane that pecks the > delete key for you? It is true that those who have never done a schedule C will not find anything of interest in THIS thread. From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Aug 18 11:40:10 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 12:40:10 -0400 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <20110818092427.P45522@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <4E4C5E84.6050909@telegraphics.com.au> <4E4C6039.9060301@neurotica.com> <20110818092427.P45522@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E4D406A.6000107@attglobal.net> On 08/18/2011 12:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > It is true that those who have never done a schedule C will not find > anything of interest in THIS thread. The 'C' is for cavity -- as in "Cavity Search" BK From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 18 11:55:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:55:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E4D406A.6000107@attglobal.net> References: <4E46A9AC.2070009@telus.net> <4E4C5E84.6050909@telegraphics.com.au> <4E4C6039.9060301@neurotica.com> <20110818092427.P45522@shell.lmi.net> <4E4D406A.6000107@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <20110818095447.P45522@shell.lmi.net> > > It is true that those who have never done a schedule C will not find > > anything of interest in THIS thread. On Thu, 18 Aug 2011, Barry L. Kline wrote: > The 'C' is for cavity -- as in "Cavity Search" But only those who are greedy or guilty get searched. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 18 12:38:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 18:38:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E4BC3DA.27426.1240C86@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 17, 11 01:36:26 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Aug 2011 at 20:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Well, horology has been an interest of mine for many years... > > Me too...no, scratch that--no "w"... I'm intersted in just about all timekeeping deviuces from sundials ot atomic clocks -- with one exception. I don't have much interst in modern electrronic clock projects that consist of a programmed microcontroller and a display. I know microcontrollers cna do that... Mechanicla clocks interest me a lot, and always have. Alas I cna't afford the things I'd really like to work on, but ther are plenty of 20th century clocks around for a few pounds htat I can have fun getting to run again. Other things that interest me (and I can obtain) include older synchonous-motor clocks, elctrically-rewound spring-driven clocks, electorncially-maintaind balance-wheel clocks (normally just a single germanium trransitor triggeredby one winding on the balanace and energising a second winding. Older eleectornci clocks, before everything went into 1 chip are also of interest, I have an HP59309 (of course!). I'd like to find a Rb standard [1] one day... [1] Yes, I realise that a Cs beam is a primary standard, but the tubes in said units have a finite life by design (the Cx is being used up all the time). The Rb tube opeates on a ratehr different principle and lasts a lot longer. THus it's more practical for me. -tony From technobug at comcast.net Thu Aug 18 13:12:49 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 11:12:49 -0700 Subject: Tektronix Transformer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just came across a Tektronix labeled transformer that I removed from some scrap analytical equipment some time ago. Part No.: 120-1097-00 manufacture date 7919. The price is right - from 85704. ->CRC From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 18 13:43:19 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 11:43:19 -0700 Subject: Clocks - was Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: <4E4BC3DA.27426.1240C86@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 17, 11 01:36:26 pm, Message-ID: <4E4CFAD7.147.F61D20@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Aug 2011 at 18:38, Tony Duell wrote: > Mechanicla clocks interest me a lot, and always have. Alas I cna't > afford the things I'd really like to work on, but ther are plenty of > 20th century clocks around for a few pounds htat I can have fun > getting to run again. Other things that interest me (and I can obtain) > include older synchonous-motor clocks, elctrically-rewound > spring-driven clocks, electorncially-maintaind balance-wheel clocks > (normally just a single germanium trransitor triggeredby one winding > on the balanace and energising a second winding. Then there are the "stamped out of tin can stock" that used to come in autos and kitchen appliances. On a 56 Chevy, I replaced the dashboard clock with one from a Soviet tank--it fit perfectly and worked much better--the tank clock had the additional bonus of allowing it to be hand-wound by turning the bezel--it didn't wind electrically. It'd run for about two weeks on a winding and was probably better-constructed than the tank itself. Lately, the clock in my kitchen wall oven has gone on the fritz. It's a cheap GE model that was probably standard on a dozen brands. The problem is that the works were never enclosed and dust and grease gummed things up, leading to one of the smaller brass pinions becoming stripped. I got it working temporarily by inserting a small washer (there's enough lateral slop), offsetting the pinion slightly. But the wear on the shaft is evident, so it's bound to fail again. Replacement clock prices on eBay are insane--$100 for a used unit which is essentially a cheap bit of stamping. Makes me angry at the poor design. A bit of card stock wrapped around the works would have kept the dust out and considerably extended the working life. Cost would have been negligible. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 13:47:37 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 13:47:37 -0500 Subject: Tektronix Transformer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: huh? On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 1:12 PM, CRC wrote: > I just came across a Tektronix labeled transformer that I removed from some > scrap analytical equipment some time ago. Part No.: 120-1097-00 manufacture > date 7919. The price is right - from 85704. > > ->CRC > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 18 14:06:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:06:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Clocks - was Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, In-Reply-To: <4E4CFAD7.147.F61D20@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 18, 11 11:43:19 am Message-ID: > > Then there are the "stamped out of tin can stock" that used to come Some car clocks were better than others... I remember repairing a spring-driven (electrically wound) clock for a friend. It didn't see many worse than other cheap clocks of thast periud, and had quite thick brass plates, for example. > Lately, the clock in my kitchen wall oven has gone on the fritz. > It's a cheap GE model that was probably standard on a dozen brands. > The problem is that the works were never enclosed and dust and grease This sounds like the sowrt of thing that should be taken apart and cleaned once a year or so. But who is going to do that? > gummed things up, leading to one of the smaller brass pinions > becoming stripped. I got it working temporarily by inserting a small > washer (there's enough lateral slop), offsetting the pinion slightly. > But the wear on the shaft is evident, so it's bound to fail again. Sometimes goy can move the pinion along the arbor. Or machine one end of the arbor and fit an extrended bush in the plate at the other end to move the whole thing along a bit. Of course the proper repair involves cutting a new pinion... > > Replacement clock prices on eBay are insane--$100 for a used unit > which is essentially a cheap bit of stamping. Probably becasue most have failed by now and the ones that remair are **RARE** > > Makes me angry at the poor design. A bit of card stock wrapped > around the works would have kept the dust out and considerably > extended the working life. Cost would have been negligible. > Oh don;'t get me started. It's what you get when companies are run by accountants who can't see beyond the next balance sheet. They figure that if you can save $0.10 on each item the profits go up. Yes, they do, for that quarter (or whatever. But then the likes of us buy them, they fail, and we see how bad the design was. And then we never buy for said company again./ Whereas if it had been well-deisgned, we'd go back for more and more things. Oh well... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 18 14:15:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:15:27 -0400 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E4D64CF.6060308@neurotica.com> On 08/18/2011 01:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I'd like to find a Rb standard [1] one day... > > [1] Yes, I realise that a Cs beam is a primary standard, but the tubes in > said units have a finite life by design (the Cx is being used up all the > time). The Rb tube opeates on a ratehr different principle and lasts a > lot longer. THus it's more practical for me. Decent Rb modules can be had for well under $100 nowadays. You should pick one up! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 18 14:25:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:25:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E4D64CF.6060308@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 18, 11 03:15:27 pm Message-ID: > Decent Rb modules can be had for well under $100 nowadays. You > should pick one up! Err, you know my love of classic hardware. I'd want an _old_ HP frequency standard... Something like a 5065 (I think). -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 14:31:26 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:31:26 +0100 Subject: Clocks - was Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <4E4CFAD7.147.F61D20@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E4BC3DA.27426.1240C86@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4CFAD7.147.F61D20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Having repaired one of those tin and zinc clocks at the last job before redundancy, $100 is a lot cheaper than the invoice for fixing your dead one. I had to carefully craft a newly cut gear on the old mechanism. Dave Caroline From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 18 17:28:00 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 16:28:00 -0600 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> Message-ID: <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> Jay West wrote: > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/photo.JPG > > I have one of these bin/toolOrganizers (made by rubbermaid) on my home techbench. Love it. I'm looking for another one for my work techbench, but apparently they are no longer made and my google& ebay searches have come up dry. Anyone have one, or know where I can get another one of these? What's a fair bounty for finding one - $20? It should be possible to create a 3D model and print one out of ABS, but if you print one on a commercial 3D printer (or via a service bureau), it will cost a lot more than $20. Should be possible to do it for <$20 with a Reprap, Makerbot, etc. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 18 17:50:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 15:50:38 -0700 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local>, <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E4D34CE.15910.1D889D9@cclist.sydex.com> I'd be sore tempted to build one myself and make it work of art using scrap hardwood. There are plans online for build-it-yourself lazy susan-type tool caddies. But I understand that woodworking may not be your thing. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Thu Aug 18 19:27:35 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:27:35 -0700 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E4DADF7.6020405@jwsss.com> > Jay West wrote: >> http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/photo.JPG >> >> I have one of these bin/toolOrganizers (made by rubbermaid) on my >> home techbench. Love it. I'm looking for another one for my work >> techbench, but apparently they are no longer made and my google& >> ebay searches have come up dry. Anyone have one, or know where I can >> get another one of these? What's a fair bounty for finding one - $20? > It should be possible to create a 3D model and print one out of ABS, > but if you print one on a commercial 3D printer (or via a service > bureau), it will cost a lot more than $20. Should be possible to do it > for <$20 with a Reprap, Makerbot, etc. I inquired as to printing with plastic, and a friend who does it regularly here producting parts like mouse housings, and housings for our movie viewer product said that the juice that is used in the printers costs around $1000 / litre. As such unless you really want something badly, try some other way than 3D printing. I have not seen what the low end printers that you referred to can do for finish, tolarance, etc, but the process they are using makes parts which are about as clean as the finish on a plastic mouse (which we have a custom version of). I wanted to "print" an Apollo DSKY, and use another asset they have here, which is flex circuits, and do a USB version to attach to the simulator you can run on your PC. The Linux version of the simulator didn't look to be very difficult to interface to, and I figured a real panel version would be pretty cool. The frame and backing is way cheaper with aluminum, very expensive with his printer service. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 18 19:48:57 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 18:48:57 -0600 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <4E4DADF7.6020405@jwsss.com> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> <4E4DADF7.6020405@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <4E4DADF7.6020405 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > our movie viewer product said that the juice that is used in the > printers costs around $1000 / litre. As such unless you really want > something badly, try some other way than 3D printing. There are different kinds of 3D printers. The ones that consume plastic in the form of a wire wound on a spool are much, much cheaper than the ones that use liquids. Making something the mass of Jay's tool organizer would likely cost about $20 in energy and materials. However, the size of a part that can be printed is much smaller than the size of the organizer, so you'd have to print parts and combine them into the larger item. That means a bunch of design work. It'd be easier to make it with a little woodworking. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 19:59:55 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > Jay West wrote: >> http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/photo.JPG >> >> I have one of these bin/toolOrganizers (made by rubbermaid) on my home >> techbench. Love it. I'm looking for another one for my work techbench, but >> apparently they are no longer made and my google& ebay searches have come >> up dry. Anyone have one, or know where I can get another one of these? >> What's a fair bounty for finding one - $20? You're not the only person looking for one. I purchased mine from Radio Shack in the 70s, lost it in a move and have never been able to locate another. -- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 18 21:19:50 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:19:50 -0500 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <4E4D34CE.15910.1D889D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local>, <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> <4E4D34CE.15910.1D889D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E4DC846.6020405@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'd be sore tempted to build one myself and make it work of art using > scrap hardwood. There are plans online for build-it-yourself lazy > susan-type tool caddies. Yes, it looks reasonably simple to do from wood, with maybe some scrap alumin[i]um for the tray dividers. But I assume Jay doesn't have the time on his hands to do that :-) That, or put a mirror behind the one that you have, so it looks like you have two ;-) cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Aug 18 21:39:18 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:39:18 -0500 Subject: bounty for tool organizer References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> Message-ID: Chris wrote.... > hey on the bottom of the caddy is there a part # > chris Nope. There's just no good spot for pegboard for either of my tech benches, so the caddy is perfect. May have to make one... wood or tin with a turntable on the bottom. I contacted rubbermaid, they said this item was part of the "toolbox line" that was phased out between 1999 and 2003. Odd, in all my searching I haven't found anything fairly close to this. /usr/local/bin/newlist classicrubbermaid www.ezwind.net/jwest/wb.jpg is the work techbench. The table top is a lot deeper than it looks, so for someone of my build trying to reach to the back for a tool on pegboard just isn't doable. Gotta find a creative way to keep all the small electronic handtools within hands reach. Thanks for the input! J From jws at jwsss.com Thu Aug 18 22:16:21 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:16:21 -0700 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> Message-ID: <4E4DD585.4010101@jwsss.com> > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/photo.JPG > > I have one of these bin/toolOrganizers (made by rubbermaid) on my home techbench. Love it. I'm looking for another one for my work techbench, but apparently they are no longer made and my google& ebay searches have come up dry. Anyone have one, or know where I can get another one of these? What's a fair bounty for finding one - $20? > > Jay I think you would be close with this device: http://www.harborfreight.com/hand-tools/tool-storage/12-inch-revolving-four-tray-bin-94050.html $17.99 I remembered that they sell the air tool accessories at the register in one of these, and had a bit of a time finding it, but you could certainly come close to what you are doing with this, though it doesn't have the small ring you can hang pliers off off like the plastic one. This one is metal, and workable to whatever shape you like. Jim From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 18 22:21:23 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 21:21:23 -0600 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <4E4DADF7.6020405@jwsss.com> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> <4E4DADF7.6020405@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E4DD6B3.4060306@brouhaha.com> jim s wrote: > I inquired as to printing with plastic, and a friend who does it > regularly here producting parts like mouse housings, and housings for > our movie viewer product said that the juice that is used in the > printers costs around $1000 / litre. If it's "juice", he's probably talking about stereolithograpy, which is definitely insanely expensive, and not at all what I was talking about. Commercial printers that use deposition of ABS plastic have the same problem as inkjet printers, where they try really hard to keep you from being able to buy the ABS from anyone else. It comes in cartridges with protection chips, and the printer won't print if it thinks the cartridge should be empty. The ABS for these typically costs $4.50 per cubic inch, which is $275/liter, or about $265 per kg. Of course, if you pay a service bureau to print something, you'll have some markup on top of that. What I was talking about is do-it-yourself 3D printing. When you do that, you don't have the cartridge conspiracy, and can buy ABS filament for under $50/kg. The quality of prints from the do-it-yourself printers isn't yet comparable to what you get with the $25K professional printer and $265/kg cartridges, but it's close enough for most things. Even with the professional printer you have to do some surfacing operations on the output if you want it to look like an injection molded part. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 18 22:21:56 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 23:21:56 -0400 Subject: bounty for tool organizer References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> Message-ID: A bit small but: http://www.gotoforms.com/Officemate-Desktop-Organizers-p/oic26255.htm http://www.shopbulldog.com/eserv/OS_ProductDetail.asp?Ino=62886&Company=BSN Maybe get a smaller one for smaller tools and keep the old one for larger stuff? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 10:39 PM Subject: Re: bounty for tool organizer > Chris wrote.... >> hey on the bottom of the caddy is there a part # >> chris > Nope. > > There's just no good spot for pegboard for either of my tech benches, so > the caddy is perfect. May have to make one... wood or tin with a turntable > on the bottom. > > I contacted rubbermaid, they said this item was part of the "toolbox line" > that was phased out between 1999 and 2003. Odd, in all my searching I > haven't found anything fairly close to this. > > /usr/local/bin/newlist classicrubbermaid > > www.ezwind.net/jwest/wb.jpg is the work techbench. The table top is a lot > deeper than it looks, so for someone of my build trying to reach to the > back for a tool on pegboard just isn't doable. Gotta find a creative way > to keep all the small electronic handtools within hands reach. > > Thanks for the input! > > J > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 19 00:47:05 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:47:05 -0700 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <4E4DD6B3.4060306@brouhaha.com> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local>, <4E4DADF7.6020405@jwsss.com>, <4E4DD6B3.4060306@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E4D9669.26308.355CF70@cclist.sydex.com> Closest thing I can find is an Alvin Spin-o-tray: http://www.cutting-mats.net/2624.html Perhaps it could be fitted with the brush holder caddy to make for something very close. --Chuck From william at donnelly-house.net Thu Aug 18 15:56:00 2011 From: william at donnelly-house.net (William Donnelly) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 13:56:00 -0700 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> Do you still have the ADM-3A? From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Aug 19 01:01:55 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 07:01:55 +0100 Subject: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: <20110818085234.D45522@shell.lmi.net> References: <00ea01cc5b5e$62883990$2798acb0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Aug 15, 11 04:16:59 pm <9395E03E02234F9D8FC66063DFA9A2F2@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <20110818085234.D45522@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: That may be the case in the US. However in the UK and having run my own business for the last twenty five years, it?s a case of income minus expenses. Not only that, a loss can be carried forward to the next year. You can't live off of a hobby business but you might make it cost you less. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 18 August 2011 16:55 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 5 On Tue, 16 Aug 2011, Rod Smallwood wrote: > It's probably obvious but surely you only start to make money once you have > covered the costs. Covering the costs by charging for your work is considered to be "re-investment of profits" (which ARE likely to be taxable) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Aug 19 03:35:46 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:35:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Tektronix Transformer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Aug 2011, CRC wrote: > I just came across a Tektronix labeled transformer that I removed from > some scrap analytical equipment some time ago. Part No.: 120-1097-00 > manufacture date 7919. The price is right - from 85704. Now, is it from 1979 or from 1985? Or is that a postal code. If so, then apparently, you're located in Unterschlei?heim ;-) Christian From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Aug 19 07:21:03 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:21:03 -0400 Subject: Tektronix Transformer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E4E552F.20502@telegraphics.com.au> On 18/08/11 2:12 PM, CRC wrote: > I just came across a Tektronix labeled transformer that I removed from some scrap analytical equipment some time ago. Part No.: 120-1097-00 manufacture date 7919. The price is right - from 85704. > > ->CRC > John Titor - is that you??? --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Aug 19 07:27:00 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:27:00 -0400 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. In-Reply-To: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> References: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> Message-ID: <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> On 18/08/11 4:56 PM, William Donnelly wrote: > Do you still have the ADM-3A? > > Me too! I'm looking for a glass tty something like this, pref somewhere near Toronto, Canada (DEC, Televideo, Visual, L-S, etc). --Toby From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Aug 19 08:05:57 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:05:57 +0200 Subject: Tektronix Transformer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004601cc5e70$bfa484c0$3eed8e40$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Christian Corti > Verzonden: vrijdag 19 augustus 2011 10:36 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Tektronix Transformer > > On Thu, 18 Aug 2011, CRC wrote: > > I just came across a Tektronix labeled transformer that I removed from > > some scrap analytical equipment some time ago. Part No.: 120-1097-00 > > manufacture date 7919. The price is right - from 85704. > > Now, is it from 1979 or from 1985? Or is that a postal code. If so, then > apparently, you're located in Unterschlei?heim ;-) > > Christian Under which rock ?????? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 19 10:13:13 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:13:13 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work Message-ID: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> Some time ago I was given a Sun Ultra 5. My intention is not to keep it, but I would like to see if I can get it to work first before finding a new owner for it. It did not come with a keyboard, so I have been trying to get something out of the serial port, I believe that when there is no keyboard attached it uses the serial port. >From my records it looks like at some point when I first got it I did manage to get to see something using 38400 baud, but now I don't get anything at all. This could be just that I have not got the right cable between the machine and my terminal emulator. Should I expect to be able to boot the machine from the serial port, log in etc? Thanks Rob From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 10:23:04 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Should I expect to be able to boot the machine from the > serial port, log in > etc? Yes. You should be able to see all the boot diagnostic messages, as well as the firmware and the OS (if installed). Try 9600 8/n/1 -Ian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 19 10:52:41 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:52:41 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023e01cc5e88$12c75bc0$38561340$@ntlworld.com> I tried 9600 as well without any luck. I think it is the cable, I *always* have trouble with serial cables. At the moment I have a cable with pins 2 and 3 crossed over and pins 7 and 8 on the PC side shorted together. I may have to crack open my breakout box to sort this out. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: 19 August 2011 16:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work > > --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > Should I expect to be able to boot the machine from the serial port, > > log in etc? > > Yes. You should be able to see all the boot diagnostic messages, as well as the > firmware and the OS (if installed). Try 9600 8/n/1 > > -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 11:04:13 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:04:13 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> Should I expect to be able to boot the machine from the >> serial port, log in etc? > > Yes. You should be able to see all the boot diagnostic messages, as well as the firmware and the OS (if installed). Try 9600 8/n/1 This thread is timely - I have been offered an Ultra 5 to pick up this weekend. I don't know anything about it except that it will come with Solaris 8 media. I'm already on the Suns-at-Home list, but I'm curious if anyone here has any recommended upgrades (specific models of PCI SCSI or video cards, in particular). I'm hoping it has the max 512MB of RAM, but if not, I'll probably want to seek that upgrade out too. If it all pans out, I'll probably retire my old SPARC5 that I've been using on and off as a Solaris nest for 10 years. -ethan From fryers at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 11:06:21 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 00:06:21 +0800 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <023e01cc5e88$12c75bc0$38561340$@ntlworld.com> References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <023e01cc5e88$12c75bc0$38561340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi, On 19 August 2011 23:52, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I tried 9600 as well without any luck. I think it is the cable, I *always* > have trouble with serial cables. At the moment I have a cable with pins 2 > and 3 crossed over and pins 7 and 8 on the PC side shorted together. I may > have to crack open my breakout box to sort this out. That doesn't sound right. I can not remember if the Ultra 5 has a DE9 or DB25 socket on the back. Anyway. Pins 2 and 3 are the TX and RX pins (not respectively) on both DE9 and DB25. Pin 5 on the DE9 is GND, as is pin 7 on the DB25. If you are running windows you may need additional pins shorted together but I seem to recall that most recent offerings from Microsoft can be configured to work with just the three wires. Good luck. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 19 11:09:19 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <023e01cc5e88$12c75bc0$38561340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1313770159.56905.YahooMailClassic@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I tried 9600 as well without any > luck. I think it is the cable, I *always* > have trouble with serial cables. At the moment I have a > cable with pins 2 > and 3 crossed over and pins 7 and 8 on the PC side shorted > together. I may > have to crack open my breakout box to sort this out. Which serial port are you using? The Ultra 5 has two, and the A port is a DB25 (which is what the console will default to). The pin layout of a 9 pin PC port is different - the functions of pins 2 and 3 are swapped. So, you should actually have pin 2 on the Sun's 25 pin port connected to pin 2 of the PC's 9 pin port - the same with pin 3. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 19 11:28:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 10:28:53 -0600 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. In-Reply-To: <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article <4E4E5694.6060404 at telegraphics.com.au>, Toby Thain writes: > Me too! I'm looking for a glass tty something like this, pref somewhere > near Toronto, Canada (DEC, Televideo, Visual, L-S, etc). On Ebay there was a seller associated with surplus property at a Canadian university (which one escapes me at the moment) that was offering a bunch of VT-100s and other terminals. I think some of them didn't sell, because most of the buyers are in the US and going across the border is a pain. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Fri Aug 19 11:35:45 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 11:35:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Aug 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Some time ago I was given a Sun Ultra 5. My intention is not to keep it, but > I would like to see if I can get it to work first before finding a new owner > for it. > > It did not come with a keyboard, so I have been trying to get something out > of the serial port, I believe that when there is no keyboard attached it > uses the serial port. As others have said, I can confirm as I've started talking to my U5 within the last week: You need a null modem cable (cross-over on TX/RX and RTS/CTS) and set the terminal to 8,n,1 9600bps. The serial ports are listed "PORT A" and "PORT B", the PORT A is the DB25 that is slightly higher up in the rear of the chassis, this is the one that console will come on. I have mine working with a VT240, currently, without issue. Anyone have any U5 memory that'd be willing to sell? - JP From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 11:45:53 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:45:53 -0400 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. In-Reply-To: <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 08:27, Toby Thain wrote: > Me too! I'm looking for a glass tty something like this, pref somewhere > near Toronto, Canada (DEC, Televideo, Visual, L-S, etc). I have a VT320 to give away from McGill University if you have some way of getting it down the 401... Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Aug 19 12:28:49 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:28:49 -0400 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 08:27:00 -0400 > From: Toby Thain > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. > Message-ID: <4E4E5694.6060404 at telegraphics.com.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 18/08/11 4:56 PM, William Donnelly wrote: >> Do you still have the ADM-3A? >> >> > > Me too! I'm looking for a glass tty something like this, pref somewhere > near Toronto, Canada (DEC, Televideo, Visual, L-S, etc). > > --Toby ------------------ How about an ADM-11? Clean, no burn, with manual - $50.00 Downtown TO. mike From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Aug 19 12:56:30 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:56:30 -0400 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E4EA3CE.4030400@telegraphics.com.au> On 19/08/11 12:28 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <4E4E5694.6060404 at telegraphics.com.au>, > Toby Thain writes: > >> Me too! I'm looking for a glass tty something like this, pref somewhere >> near Toronto, Canada (DEC, Televideo, Visual, L-S, etc). > > On Ebay there was a seller associated with surplus property at a > Canadian university (which one escapes me at the moment) that was > offering a bunch of VT-100s and other terminals. I think some of them > didn't sell, because most of the buyers are in the US and going across > the border is a pain. I have an ebay saved search that should cover this - haven't seen anything lately. Thanks for the tip though! --Toby From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 19 13:19:32 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 20:19:32 +0200 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:04:13 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > specific models of PCI SCSI NCR / Symbios / LSI from 53C810 up to at least 53C895 should Just Work (C) (R) (TM). > or video cards, in particular On U5s I allways used the on board video. You will need a Sun branded PCI framebuffer. The UPA slot in the U5 is not usable. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 13:31:51 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:31:51 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:04:13 -0400 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> specific models of PCI SCSI > NCR / Symbios / LSI from 53C810 up to at least 53C895 should > Just Work (C) (R) (TM). Cool. Those should be easy to find. I have a DEC shelf loaded with 18GB and 36GB drives, so I'd like to be able to continue to use it. >> or video cards, in particular > On U5s I allways used the on board video. You will need a Sun branded > PCI framebuffer. The UPA slot in the U5 is not usable. Good to know about the UPA. Thanks, -ethan From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Aug 19 13:56:07 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:56:07 -0500 Subject: Scam? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, This looks so fictitious, I just have to ask: Anyone know "Zephyr"? Anyone else get a similar offer? If no and no, be careful. I have a Mac Plus and don't need a NIB newton. Been scammed once, so I'm highly tempted to drive up to Austin and try to arrange a face-to-face meeting. Not tempted enough, though. At 8:15 PM -0700 8/18/11, Zephyr Carroll wrote: >Hi, >My name is Zephyr and I got your e-mail off of the Antique Computer >collector website. You had stated that you were interested in >Vintage Apples. Well I have a Macintosh Plus, fully operational with >keyboard and mouse, power cable and lots of Software. I also have a >Newton in the box with stylus and docking/charging station. In >addition I have two small floppy boxes loaded with software, and a >sealed yes sealed in the box version of Microsoft Basic interpreter >for mac. As well as A sealed version of the Newton pc connect >software. I was interested in if you would be interested in adding >these pieces to your collection. I would love to make a deal with >you for everything, because I don't want these pieces of history to >end up as an aquarium or landfill, since they are in working order. >Please feel free to e-mail me, I am in the Austin, TX Area. Or call >me if you like at 512-415-3218. Thank you for your time and hope to >hear from you soon. >Zephyr Carroll >512-415-3218 >zmcbreeze at yahoo.com -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 19 14:05:31 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:05:31 +0200 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110819210531.9f2cae03.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:31:51 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The UPA slot in the U5 is not usable. > Good to know about the UPA. The limitation is purely mechanical due to the enclosure. The U10 uses an identical mainboard can and be fitted with a UPA framebuffer. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From g at kurico.com Fri Aug 19 14:21:47 2011 From: g at kurico.com (g_kurico.com) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:21:47 -0500 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Scam=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:56:07 -0500, Mark Tapley wrote: > All, > This looks so fictitious, I just have to ask: > > Anyone know "Zephyr"? > Anyone else get a similar offer? > > If no and no, be careful. I have a Mac Plus and don't need a NIB > newton. Been scammed once, so I'm highly tempted to drive up to > Austin > and try to arrange a face-to-face meeting. Not tempted enough, > though. A quick search online shows a "Zephyr Carroll" as being a graduate of Westwood High in 89, so it's certainly possible that this is a real person. The email doesn't seem too fictitious to me, but maybe I'm just to trusting :) From spedraja at ono.com Fri Aug 19 14:29:37 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:29:37 +0200 Subject: Microvax II + Decwriter IV + VT220 + CDC SMD Hard Disk Message-ID: Pretty system, sincerely. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vtg-DEC-MicroVaxII-DECWriter-IV-LA34-DEC-VT220-more-/250875681078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a695b1936 Regards Sergio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 19 14:05:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 20:05:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Clocks - was Non-revenue-producing (Was: cctech Digest, Vol 96, In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Aug 18, 11 08:31:26 pm Message-ID: > > Having repaired one of those tin and zinc clocks at the last job > before redundancy, > $100 is a lot cheaper than the invoice for fixing your dead one. > I had to carefully craft a newly cut gear on the old mechanism. This is, unfortunately a problem with fixing many vintage devices :-( To get back to classic computers... Think of just about any machine that you like, and think of the difference in price (Ebay if you like) betwen a working example and a non-working one. Even for quite rare machines, it's not that much. And now think how long it would take to fix the non-working one (fiding the fualt, tracking down spares, soldering in the componnts, etc). And thus work out what thest rpeairs would pay per hour. That's why it's not worth the hassle of running a business for this. On the other hand, fixing these machines is fun, and it's a great hobby. Hobbies don';t make financial sense. So I am happy to cerry on fixing things and to share my experiences -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 14:39:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:39:16 -0400 Subject: Microvax II + Decwriter IV + VT220 + CDC SMD Hard Disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E4EBBE4.3030305@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 03:29 PM, SPC wrote: > Pretty system, sincerely. > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vtg-DEC-MicroVaxII-DECWriter-IV-LA34-DEC-VT220-more-/250875681078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a695b1936 Yes it is! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 14:42:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:42:08 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <023e01cc5e88$12c75bc0$38561340$@ntlworld.com> References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <023e01cc5e88$12c75bc0$38561340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E4EBC90.8030407@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 11:52 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I tried 9600 as well without any luck. I think it is the cable, I *always* > have trouble with serial cables. At the moment I have a cable with pins 2 > and 3 crossed over and pins 7 and 8 on the PC side shorted together. I may > have to crack open my breakout box to sort this out. Ignore the standard, and leave the break-out box in the drawer. After years of practically memorizing the (horrible) standard and trying to do things "by the book" analytically, etc, I refer to it as "RS-232 in-your-face" rather than "interface". Connect pins 2, 3, and 7. If it doesn't talk, swap 2 and 3. This will get 90% of what you'll find in the wild talking (and will definitely work for nearly all Sun gear), only break out the break-out box if this doesn't work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jim at photojim.ca Fri Aug 19 14:46:23 2011 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:46:23 -0600 Subject: Scam? References: Message-ID: <5F3E19865C2D40D689EB3248504CA5F6@JIMM> One way to find out. Phone the number and ask about a completely different and highly implausible computer situation. e.g. "I hear that you have an original Commodore PET with the built-in tape drive". If they say "Yes!" then it's highly probable that it's fraud. :) Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "g_kurico.com" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, August 19, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: Re: Scam? > On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:56:07 -0500, Mark Tapley wrote: >> All, >> This looks so fictitious, I just have to ask: >> >> Anyone know "Zephyr"? >> Anyone else get a similar offer? >> >> If no and no, be careful. I have a Mac Plus and don't need a NIB >> newton. Been scammed once, so I'm highly tempted to drive up to Austin >> and try to arrange a face-to-face meeting. Not tempted enough, though. > > A quick search online shows a "Zephyr Carroll" as being a graduate of > Westwood High in 89, so it's certainly possible that this is a real > person. The email doesn't seem too fictitious to me, but maybe I'm just > to trusting :) > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 14:48:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:48:52 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E4EBE24.1080505@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 12:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > This thread is timely - I have been offered an Ultra 5 to pick up this > weekend. I don't know anything about it except that it will come with > Solaris 8 media. > > I'm already on the Suns-at-Home list, but I'm curious if anyone here > has any recommended upgrades (specific models of PCI SCSI or video > cards, in particular). I'm hoping it has the max 512MB of RAM, but if > not, I'll probably want to seek that upgrade out too. > > If it all pans out, I'll probably retire my old SPARC5 that I've been > using on and off as a Solaris nest for 10 years. First, be aware that the Ultra5 and Ultra10 systems are garbage. They are essentially PCs with low-end UltraSPARC CPUs in them. This system will NOT be up to the standard of quality that you've come to expect from Sun based on your SPARCstation-5. There is one processor module that I consider "useful" on those systems; it's a 440MHz CPU with 2MB of cache. The others (all of them I think) have tiny-to-the-point-of-being-useless caches and are very, very slow. You'll definitely want to put a SCSI host adapter in there. The onboard IDE controller is slower than pissing tar. The right SCSI host adapter is a Symbios sym22801; they are supported by OBP for booting and are good performers. If you're serious about replacing your SPARCstation-5 with a new(er) 64-bit Sun system, I strongly recommend against the Ultra5, even if it is free. Be aware that the Ultra10 is essentially the same machine in a different chassis. I'd point you in the direction of something like an Ultra60, which is (IMO) one of the finest workstation-class systems Sun has ever built. They can easily be found as freebies nowadays, will run rings around an Ultra5 of any configuration, and are built like tanks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 19 15:00:32 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:00:32 -0700 Subject: Microvax II + Decwriter IV + VT220 + CDC SMD Hard Disk In-Reply-To: <4E4EBBE4.3030305@neurotica.com> References: <4E4EBBE4.3030305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 3:39 PM -0400 8/19/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 08/19/2011 03:29 PM, SPC wrote: >>Pretty system, sincerely. >> >>http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vtg-DEC-MicroVaxII-DECWriter-IV-LA34-DEC-VT220-more-/250875681078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a695b1936 > > Yes it is! > > -Dave No kidding, though I wish there were a couple overall system photo's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Aug 19 15:10:41 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:10:41 -0400 Subject: Scam? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E4EC341.2060006@verizon.net> On 8/19/2011 3:21 PM, g_kurico.com wrote: > On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:56:07 -0500, Mark Tapley wrote: >> All, >> This looks so fictitious, I just have to ask: >> >> Anyone know "Zephyr"? >> Anyone else get a similar offer? >> >> If no and no, be careful. I have a Mac Plus and don't need a NIB >> newton. Been scammed once, so I'm highly tempted to drive up to Austin >> and try to arrange a face-to-face meeting. Not tempted enough, though. > > A quick search online shows a "Zephyr Carroll" as being a graduate of > Westwood High in 89, so it's certainly possible that this is a real > person. The email doesn't seem too fictitious to me, but maybe I'm just > to trusting :) And I believe this is his image here http://do512.com/38869/following (age seems right given HS graduation date) It's absurd what is public information and available for the googling, but this is definitely a real person. Definitely. It still may be a scam, and it may not really be him --- but there is TONS of supporting evidence given name/location/age/email address/etc. And lives 7 miles from that high school in the University Hills neighborhood of Austin, TX. Keith From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 15:13:05 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:13:05 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E4EBE24.1080505@neurotica.com> References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E4EBE24.1080505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/19/2011 12:04 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> This thread is timely - I have been offered an Ultra 5 to pick up this >> weekend. > > ?First, be aware that the Ultra5 and Ultra10 systems are garbage. They are > essentially PCs with low-end UltraSPARC CPUs in them. ?This system will NOT > be up to the standard of quality that you've come to expect from Sun based > on your SPARCstation-5. Yes. I know they are not as sturdy or as elegant. OTOH, I used to use a U5 everyday for Solaris software development. I remember appreciating my $100 SPARC5-70 I used at home at the time. It was fine for what I did, as long as I didn't need to do any serious web browsing - limited memory was my most serious problem, IIRC. > ?There is one processor module that I consider "useful" on those systems; > it's a 440MHz CPU with 2MB of cache. ?The others (all of them I think) have > tiny-to-the-point-of-being-useless caches and are very, very slow. I will look for that when I look at the box. Thanks. > ?You'll definitely want to put a SCSI host adapter in there. ?The onboard > IDE controller is slower than pissing tar. I don't recall feeling the OS was sluggish in the U5 I used 8-9 hrs a day, but I didn't ask more of it than to run a fistful of xterm windows and sometimes a browser. >?The right SCSI host adapter is a > Symbios sym22801; they are supported by OBP for booting and are good > performers. Good to know. Thanks. > ?If you're serious about replacing your SPARCstation-5 with a new(er) 64-bit > Sun system, I strongly recommend against the Ultra5, even if it is free. ?Be > aware that the Ultra10 is essentially the same machine in a different > chassis. I did know the U5 and U10 were essentially the same machine in different boxes. > ?I'd point you in the direction of something like an Ultra60, which > is (IMO) one of the finest workstation-class systems Sun has ever built. > ?They can easily be found as freebies nowadays, will run rings around an > Ultra5 of any configuration, and are built like tanks. I have a Netra T1125 - it's a rack-mount U60 with the keyboard and mouse and UPA ports blocked off. Fine for a server; not so fine for a server+X-workstation. There are lots of Suns and Sun owners around here (Central Ohio). I get offered lesser machines (SS10s and SS20s seem to be popular to ditch right now) several times a year. Nobody local has yet asked to have hauled away anything in the U30 and up range. -ethan From doc at vaxen.net Fri Aug 19 15:20:26 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:20:26 -0500 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E4EC58A.8070708@vaxen.net> On 8/19/11 1:31 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 2:19 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> On U5s I allways used the on board video. You will need a Sun branded >> PCI framebuffer. The UPA slot in the U5 is not usable. > > Good to know about the UPA. Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 19 15:28:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:28:53 -0600 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. In-Reply-To: <4E4EA3CE.4030400@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> <4E4EA3CE.4030400@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article <4E4EA3CE.4030400 at telegraphics.com.au>, Toby Thain writes: > I have an ebay saved search that should cover this - haven't seen > anything lately. Thanks for the tip though! I think it was in December 2010. I bid on one thing and didn't win it. Unfortunately, the automated email tells me the item #, but not the seller name, so I have no record of the seller and the item # is expunged from ebay records, so I can't tell you who was the seller. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 15:45:00 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:45:00 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E4EC58A.8070708@vaxen.net> References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E4EC58A.8070708@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > ?Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend. Why is that better than X? (I've been running Solaris or Linux as my primary desktop/laptop OS at home and at work for nearly all of the past 8 years, so "VNC clients run on Windows" is not helpful to me). -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Aug 19 15:49:00 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:49:00 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E4EBE24.1080505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > There are lots of Suns and Sun owners around here (Central Ohio). I > get offered lesser machines (SS10s and SS20s seem to be popular to > ditch right now) several times a year. Nobody local has yet asked to > have hauled away anything in the U30 and up range. > > -ethan > Most of those old SUNs have oddball dead batteries people don't feel like spending money to replace. SUNs don't seem that popular here in NE Ohio, the few I have seen were in the process of getting recycled. Sparc equipment on eBay seems to have gone up in price with fewer items being offered (not worth shipping, not that many collectors maybe?). I have an ultra 5 with 512MB (333 model)and the correct SCSI card with a 36GB 10K drive , seems ok for the little I did with it (Solaris 8/ Debian SPARC). A while ago I tried to boot it and found the battery had died, did the coin cell hack but never did get the network address setup again to use it. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 15:53:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:53:59 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E4EC58A.8070708@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4E4ECD67.7040200@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 04:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend. > > Why is that better than X? > > (I've been running Solaris or Linux as my primary desktop/laptop OS at > home and at work for nearly all of the past 8 years, so "VNC clients > run on Windows" is not helpful to me). Doc didn't suggest Windows.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 19 15:59:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 13:59:33 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? Message-ID: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com> Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? Got one with monitor, keyboard and printer. Did have a full set of manuals, but someone bought those. If no response by tomorrow, I'll consider it e-junk. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 16:03:23 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:03:23 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E4ECD67.7040200@neurotica.com> References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E4EC58A.8070708@vaxen.net> <4E4ECD67.7040200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/19/2011 04:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> ?Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend. >> >> Why is that better than X? > > ?Doc didn't suggest Windows.. No he did not, but I wanted to short circuit any answers resembling "because VNC is easier to get working on Windows than X" type answers. I really do want to know why VNC is better than X - specifically in the environment of sitting on a machine that's already running an X server and firing off X client programs on a SPARC box. What does VNC get me that X doesn't? i.e. - why would I want to load something that's not included out of the box. What's the payoff? -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 16:03:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:03:56 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E4ECFBC.1060502@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 04:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? > > Got one with monitor, keyboard and printer. Did have a full set of > manuals, but someone bought those. > > If no response by tomorrow, I'll consider it e-junk. Oooh, yes! Grand machines they are; I sold and serviced them when they were current. Where are you again? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 16:08:03 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:08:03 -0500 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: please tell me this is in manitoba??? On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article <4E4E5694.6060404 at telegraphics.com.au>, > Toby Thain writes: > > > Me too! I'm looking for a glass tty something like this, pref somewhere > > near Toronto, Canada (DEC, Televideo, Visual, L-S, etc). > > On Ebay there was a seller associated with surplus property at a > Canadian university (which one escapes me at the moment) that was > offering a bunch of VT-100s and other terminals. I think some of them > didn't sell, because most of the buyers are in the US and going across > the border is a pain. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 16:11:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:11:39 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E4EC58A.8070708@vaxen.net> <4E4ECD67.7040200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E4ED18B.6040502@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 05:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend. >>> >>> Why is that better than X? >> >> Doc didn't suggest Windows.. > > No he did not, but I wanted to short circuit any answers resembling > "because VNC is easier to get working on Windows than X" type answers. Ahh ok, good thinking. It isn't, but I suspect you know that. ;) > I really do want to know why VNC is better than X - specifically in > the environment of sitting on a machine that's already running an X > server and firing off X client programs on a SPARC box. What does VNC > get me that X doesn't? i.e. - why would I want to load something > that's not included out of the box. What's the payoff? The relatively bad bus bandwidth combined with the lackluster performance of the video hardware that is supported on that machine will result in pretty miserable interactive performance. Of course sitting in front of a machine that's already running X and displaying stuff back to it from the Ultra5 is the right way to do things, but Windows has really dumbed down the real world of graphical user interfaces so everyone seems to think "remote GUI" means "brute-forcedly copying the entire 'screen' (whether it exists or not) to another host". (no offense intended to the rabid Windows folk here...I'll save that for another day ;)) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 19 16:24:29 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:24:29 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4ECFBC.1060502@neurotica.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4ECFBC.1060502@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E4E721D.13454.10EFF1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2011 at 17:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > Oooh, yes! Grand machines they are; I sold and serviced them when > they were current. Where are you again? Other side of the country--Eugene, OR. --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Fri Aug 19 16:26:42 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:26:42 -0500 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E4EC58A.8070708@vaxen.net> <4E4ECD67.7040200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E4ED512.1090302@vaxen.net> On 8/19/11 4:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 08/19/2011 04:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> >>>> Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend. >>> >>> Why is that better than X? >> >> Doc didn't suggest Windows.. > > No he did not, but I wanted to short circuit any answers resembling > "because VNC is easier to get working on Windows than X" type answers. > I really do want to know why VNC is better than X - specifically in > the environment of sitting on a machine that's already running an X > server and firing off X client programs on a SPARC box. What does VNC > get me that X doesn't? i.e. - why would I want to load something > that's not included out of the box. What's the payoff? My experience with Sun framebuffers has been less than stellar. There are some *very* good ones, but not common and not cheap. Plus, every Ultra5 I've messed with was noisy as hell. So, with a good network and a Linux/MacOSX/$UNIX VNC client, you can get as good or better desktop performance remotely as you would running X locally. Doc From doc at vaxen.net Fri Aug 19 16:32:19 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:32:19 -0500 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <1313767384.94208.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110819201932.0303246b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E4EC58A.8070708@vaxen.net> <4E4ECD67.7040200@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E4ED663.7080805@vaxen.net> On 8/19/11 4:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 08/19/2011 04:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> >>>> Honestly, with most any SPARC system, VNC is Your Friend. >>> >>> Why is that better than X? >> >> Doc didn't suggest Windows.. > > No he did not, but I wanted to short circuit any answers resembling > "because VNC is easier to get working on Windows than X" type answers. > I really do want to know why VNC is better than X - specifically in > the environment of sitting on a machine that's already running an X > server and firing off X client programs on a SPARC box. What does VNC > get me that X doesn't? i.e. - why would I want to load something > that's not included out of the box. What's the payoff? Oops, I didn't parse your question correctly. I answered why VNC is better than *local* X server on the U5... I find that I like the "desktop-in-a-window" aspect of VNC. It keeps me more conscious of what's running where. Plus, I just like the CDE desktop (yeah, shoot me now....) Other than that, or even considering that, the choice of VNC vs remote client running on a good X server is purely personal taste. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 16:34:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:34:27 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4E721D.13454.10EFF1F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4ECFBC.1060502@neurotica.com> <4E4E721D.13454.10EFF1F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E4ED6E3.10507@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 05:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Oooh, yes! Grand machines they are; I sold and serviced them when >> they were current. Where are you again? > > Other side of the country--Eugene, OR. Crap. I am overextended due to the move, no way I can afford to ship something like that right now. If you're willing to sit on it for a while, I'll definitely give it a home, but it can't be immediate. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 19 16:39:48 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:39:48 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <025401cc5eb8$86b4efe0$941ecfa0$@ntlworld.com> I got it working by crossing pins 2 and 3 and connecting CTS to RTS on the PC side. I connected it to a DB25 connector next to the VGA connector, which is what the diagram I have shows. There is a DB9 port above it and another DB25 next to the higher DB9, I have no idea what these are although I suppose they might be extra serial ports. I am currently trying to decide whether I should keep this machine. Is there anyone interested in it who would like to collect it? I am in Manchester in the UK. It has 256MB of memory and a disk of about 8GB. That is all I know about it. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin > Sent: 19 August 2011 17:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work > > > > On Fri, 19 Aug 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > Some time ago I was given a Sun Ultra 5. My intention is not to keep > > it, but I would like to see if I can get it to work first before > > finding a new owner for it. > > > > It did not come with a keyboard, so I have been trying to get > > something out of the serial port, I believe that when there is no > > keyboard attached it uses the serial port. > > As others have said, I can confirm as I've started talking to my U5 within the > last week: You need a null modem cable (cross-over on TX/RX and > RTS/CTS) and set the terminal to 8,n,1 9600bps. The serial ports are listed > "PORT A" and "PORT B", the PORT A is the DB25 that is slightly higher up in the > rear of the chassis, this is the one that console will come on. > > I have mine working with a VT240, currently, without issue. > > > > Anyone have any U5 memory that'd be willing to sell? > > - JP From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 19 16:42:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:42:23 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4ED6E3.10507@neurotica.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4E721D.13454.10EFF1F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4ED6E3.10507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E4E764F.29816.11F63A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2011 at 17:34, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/19/2011 05:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Oooh, yes! Grand machines they are; I sold and serviced them > >> when > >> they were current. Where are you again? > > > > Other side of the country--Eugene, OR. > > Crap. I am overextended due to the move, no way I can afford to > ship > something like that right now. If you're willing to sit on it for a > while, I'll definitely give it a home, but it can't be immediate. Sure, can do. Just don't forget it! --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 16:59:40 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 14:59:40 -0700 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> <4E4EA3CE.4030400@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Richard wrote: > > I think it was in December 2010. ?I bid on one thing and didn't win > it. ?Unfortunately, the automated email tells me the item #, but not > the seller name, so I have no record of the seller and the item # is > expunged from ebay records, so I can't tell you who was the seller. > -- http://myworld.ebay.ca/uvicsurplusasset/ http://web.uvic.ca/purc/asset.php From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 17:11:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 18:11:48 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4E764F.29816.11F63A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4E721D.13454.10EFF1F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4ED6E3.10507@neurotica.com> <4E4E764F.29816.11F63A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E4EDFA4.7050001@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 05:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> Oooh, yes! Grand machines they are; I sold and serviced them >>>> when >>>> they were current. Where are you again? >>> >>> Other side of the country--Eugene, OR. >> >> Crap. I am overextended due to the move, no way I can afford to >> ship >> something like that right now. If you're willing to sit on it for a >> while, I'll definitely give it a home, but it can't be immediate. > > Sure, can do. Just don't forget it! Thank you. You may need to remind me after things settle down a bit here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 19 17:29:03 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:29:03 -0500 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4EDFA4.7050001@neurotica.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4E721D.13454.10EFF1F@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4ED6E3.10507@neurotica.com> <4E4E764F.29816.11F63A7@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4EDFA4.7050001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: just put a note on the machean email this dude by this date or something On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 5:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/19/2011 05:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Oooh, yes! Grand machines they are; I sold and serviced them >>>>> when >>>>> they were current. Where are you again? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Other side of the country--Eugene, OR. >>>> >>> >>> Crap. I am overextended due to the move, no way I can afford to >>> ship >>> something like that right now. If you're willing to sit on it for a >>> while, I'll definitely give it a home, but it can't be immediate. >>> >> >> Sure, can do. Just don't forget it! >> > > Thank you. You may need to remind me after things settle down a bit here. > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From shumaker at att.net Fri Aug 19 17:33:13 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:33:13 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E4EE4A9.1070603@att.net> color monitor or mono? mouse missing in action? steve On 8/19/2011 1:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? > > Got one with monitor, keyboard and printer. Did have a full set of > manuals, but someone bought those. > > If no response by tomorrow, I'll consider it e-junk. > > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 19 17:49:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 15:49:02 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4EE4A9.1070603@att.net> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4EE4A9.1070603@att.net> Message-ID: <4E4E85EE.19548.15C6768@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2011 at 15:33, steve shumaker wrote: > color monitor or mono? mouse missing in action? > > steve Mono monitor, no mouse. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Fri Aug 19 18:43:47 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 16:43:47 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4E85EE.19548.15C6768@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4EE4A9.1070603@att.net> <4E4E85EE.19548.15C6768@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E4EF533.409@att.net> thanks. on the watch for a color monitor and the nonstandard mouse! steve On 8/19/2011 3:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Aug 2011 at 15:33, steve shumaker wrote: > > >> color monitor or mono? mouse missing in action? >> >> steve >> > Mono monitor, no mouse. > > --Chuck > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 18:50:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 19:50:52 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4EF533.409@att.net> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4EE4A9.1070603@att.net> <4E4E85EE.19548.15C6768@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4EF533.409@att.net> Message-ID: <4E4EF6DC.6050007@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 07:43 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > thanks. on the watch for a color monitor and the nonstandard mouse! Me too. :) The color monitors they shipped with those machines sure were nice. Actually the monos are pretty nice too. And I LOVE those keyboards! Overall they are very nice machines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Aug 19 19:06:35 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:06:35 -0700 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) Message-ID: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-PDP-1-HANDBOOK-MANUAL-/220832138801 Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 19 20:08:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 18:08:47 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4EF6DC.6050007@neurotica.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4EF533.409@att.net>, <4E4EF6DC.6050007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E4EA6AF.25821.2E9059@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2011 at 19:50, Dave McGuire wrote: > And I LOVE those keyboards! > > Overall they are very nice machines. Forgot to mention that it comes with a set of manuals, if you need them. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 19 20:09:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 18:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4E721D.13454.10EFF1F@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4ED6E3.10507@neurotica.com> <4E4E764F.29816.11F63A7@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4EDFA4.7050001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110819180830.Y25369@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 19 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > just put a note on the machean email this dude by this date or something ANOTHER post-it? Oh, well. one more little spot that will yellow slower From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Aug 19 20:20:55 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:20:55 -0400 Subject: Intel MDS available in SC Message-ID: All -- I got an email from someone in Landrum, SC (close to Greenville and Greer) regarding an Intel MDS system with disks, manuals and the 8080 pod. I don?t have the room for it and the person doesn?t really want to ship it, so I thought I?d mention it here. If anyone?s interested, contact me off-list for the person?s contact info. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 20:41:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:41:16 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4EA6AF.25821.2E9059@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4EF533.409@att.net>, <4E4EF6DC.6050007@neurotica.com> <4E4EA6AF.25821.2E9059@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E4F10BC.8050806@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 09:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> And I LOVE those keyboards! >> >> Overall they are very nice machines. > > Forgot to mention that it comes with a set of manuals, if you need > them. I don't, but I'd definitely keep them out of the dumpster. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 19 20:41:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:41:44 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <20110819180830.Y25369@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4E721D.13454.10EFF1F@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4ED6E3.10507@neurotica.com> <4E4E764F.29816.11F63A7@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4EDFA4.7050001@neurotica.com> <20110819180830.Y25369@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E4F10D8.7000800@neurotica.com> On 08/19/2011 09:09 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> just put a note on the machean email this dude by this date or something > > ANOTHER post-it? Oh, well. one more little spot that will yellow slower These machines are made of honest-to-God METAL. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shumaker at att.net Fri Aug 19 23:33:18 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:33:18 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4F10BC.8050806@neurotica.com> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4EF533.409@att.net>, <4E4EF6DC.6050007@neurotica.com> <4E4EA6AF.25821.2E9059@cclist.sydex.com> <4E4F10BC.8050806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E4F390E.3010704@att.net> what does a "set" consist of? mine came with 3 volumes: the user's guide, MS-DOS, and GW-BASIC. Is there something else for the basic system? Steve On 8/19/2011 6:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/19/2011 09:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> And I LOVE those keyboards! >>> >>> Overall they are very nice machines. >> >> Forgot to mention that it comes with a set of manuals, if you need >> them. > > I don't, but I'd definitely keep them out of the dumpster. > > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 19 23:58:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 21:58:33 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4F390E.3010704@att.net> References: <4E4E6C45.14670.F82A65@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E4F10BC.8050806@neurotica.com>, <4E4F390E.3010704@att.net> Message-ID: <4E4EDC89.19528.100E949@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Aug 2011 at 21:33, steve shumaker wrote: > what does a "set" consist of? mine came with 3 volumes: the user's > guide, MS-DOS, and GW-BASIC. Is there something else for the basic > system? I think that's it, but I'll have to dig them out and check. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 00:50:07 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 00:50:07 -0500 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wow still pritty cool On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-**DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-PDP-1-** > HANDBOOK-MANUAL-/220832138801 > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/ | > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 20 01:17:01 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 23:17:01 -0700 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know, if I could afford it, I'd actually be seriously tempted. Zane At 12:50 AM -0500 8/20/11, Adrian Stoness wrote: >wow still pritty cool > >On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-**DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-PDP-1-** >> >>HANDBOOK-MANUAL-/220832138801 >> > > Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jws at jwsss.com Sat Aug 20 01:51:17 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 23:51:17 -0700 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E4F5965.4070402@jwsss.com> I the manual, Macro1 manual and a reference card. Was used for the one delivered to Honeywell Mpls. The operative comment is yikes! Jim > I know, if I could afford it, I'd actually be seriously tempted. > > Zane > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 01:59:46 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:59:46 -0500 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E4F5965.4070402@jwsss.com> References: <4E4F5965.4070402@jwsss.com> Message-ID: lol On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:51 AM, jim s wrote: > I the manual, Macro1 manual and a reference card. Was used for the one > delivered to Honeywell Mpls. > > The operative comment is yikes! > Jim > > I know, if I could afford it, I'd actually be seriously tempted. >> >> Zane >> >> From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 20 02:04:20 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 09:04:20 +0200 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <025401cc5eb8$86b4efe0$941ecfa0$@ntlworld.com> References: <023d01cc5e82$852dea40$8f89bec0$@ntlworld.com> <025401cc5eb8$86b4efe0$941ecfa0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110820090420.70ad69cf.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:39:48 +0100 "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > There is a DB9 port above it and another > DB25 next to the higher DB9, I have no idea what these are although I > suppose they might be extra serial ports. The DE9 is serial port B and the other DB25 is a PeeCee style parallel port. These two ports sit on a slot bracket and are connected via cables to the mainboard. I.e. serial port A is easy to locate as it is the only serial port with DB25 connector on the main board. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 20 02:43:11 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:43:11 +0100 Subject: RD53 Stiction Message-ID: <027c01cc5f0c$d158b640$740a22c0$@ntlworld.com> I sent the email below out a little while back, just wondering if anyone has any advice? Thanks Rob _____________________________________________ From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] Sent: 23 July 2011 21:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts (cctalk at classiccmp.org) Subject: RD53 Stiction I have an RD53 which is suffering from the sticky bumper problem. Normally I can resolve this with a sliver of paper placed over the sticky bumper. But in this instance it seems the bumper has practically liquefied and I think it has gummed up some of the mechanism. Is it feasible to dismantle the assembly to clean it up? Has anyone ever done this? Any advice? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 20 07:53:57 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:53:57 +0100 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment Message-ID: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC equipment I have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I only have a couple of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I am interested in. If anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages with prices and options etc that would be great. The equipment I am interested in are: MicroVAX II MicroVAX 2000 MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) VAXstation 4000 VLC VAXstation 4000 Model 60 MicroVAX 3400 PDP11/24 VT220 VT420 LA50 Alpha 433au DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP DEC Professional 350 Thanks Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Aug 20 13:59:33 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 13:59:33 -0500 Subject: bounty for tool organizer In-Reply-To: <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> References: <66FEB17199C44DB6A26139238B9CCD25@osa.local> <4E4D91F0.5030102@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Jay West wrote: >> >> http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/photo.JPG >> >> I have one of these bin/toolOrganizers (made by rubbermaid) on my home >> techbench. Love it. I'm looking for another one for my work techbench, but >> apparently they are no longer made and my google& ?ebay searches have come >> up dry. Anyone have one, or know where I can get another one of these? Googling and searching ebay for "tool carousel" brings a variety of styles, tho none of the Rubbermaid models. This is the closest to useful that I could find: http://www.ebay.com/itm/260796543103 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 20 13:04:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:04:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E4EBC90.8030407@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 19, 11 03:42:08 pm Message-ID: [RS232] > Ignore the standard, and leave the break-out box in the drawer. > After years of practically memorizing the (horrible) standard and trying > to do things "by the book" analytically, etc, I refer to it as "RS-232 > in-your-face" rather than "interface". It's odd... I would give the opposite advice. Since I started using a breakout box (or similar) to see just what the devices were doing I find I can wirte a serial cable and get it to work first time (at least most of the time :-)). First test is to connectr a breakout box or a quick-checker (one of thos adapters with LEDs montiros i nthe most important signals) to each device in turn That will tell me which signals it's driving, and henxe if it's a DTE (driving pin 2 at least) or a DCE (driving pin 3). From whihc handshake lines are driven you can make a fair guess as to which handshake inputs it'll be listening too (if it drives RTS, it may well be looking at CTS, etc). If in doubt, I trace the pins inside to th buffer chips (takes a few minuts at most). Then I patch up a cable to link ground (pin 7) and the data lines (2,3) appropriately. Try that. If one device won't sent anything, I try asserting handshake lines until it dosn Everything I use with an RS23 connector other than a DB25 (I have machines with DE9s (assorted wring!),Qunicuncial 5 pin DIN plugs (3 diffferent sets of conenctions), 8 pin DIN, 8 pin mini-DIN, 50 pin microribbon, 4 pin header plugs, 10 pin headre plugs, etc) gets a cable to convert it to a DB25 of the appropriate gender. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 20 15:02:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 16:02:02 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5012BA.6010301@neurotica.com> On 08/20/2011 02:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > [RS232] > >> Ignore the standard, and leave the break-out box in the drawer. >> After years of practically memorizing the (horrible) standard and trying >> to do things "by the book" analytically, etc, I refer to it as "RS-232 >> in-your-face" rather than "interface". > > It's odd... I would give the opposite advice. Since I started using a > breakout box (or similar) to see just what the devices were doing I find > I can wirte a serial cable and get it to work first time (at least most > of the time :-)). Yes, I agree in principle, but in the wild there are really very few machines that require any of the handshaking lines to be used, and if you're trying to get a console port talking as quickly as possible (say, at a customer site) then my approach really is the way to go. Plug, doesn't work, re-plug, works. I can do that in less time than it takes to fish the breakout box out of the tool bag. I personally use a slightly different procedure in practice. I use one of the quick-checkers that you describe, though, the one with seven LEDs. I connect it inline, check to see that both TxD and RxD are being driven (at any state, just ensure they're being driven), and if only one is, insert a null modem. 99% of the time, that gets things talking right away. For the remaining 1%, I always keep a breakout box handy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sat Aug 20 16:37:06 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 15:37:06 -0600 Subject: 8/L has been sold. Have ADM-3A for sale. In-Reply-To: References: <4E4D7C60.2050804@donnelly-house.net> <4E4E5694.6060404@telegraphics.com.au> <4E4EA3CE.4030400@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article , Glen Slick writes: > On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Richard wrote: > > > > I think it was in December 2010. I bid on one thing and didn't win > > it. Unfortunately, the automated email tells me the item #, but not > > the seller name, so I have no record of the seller and the item # is > > expunged from ebay records, so I can't tell you who was the seller. > > -- > > http://myworld.ebay.ca/uvicsurplusasset/ > > http://web.uvic.ca/purc/asset.php Yes, that's the one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 20 21:02:25 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 19:02:25 -0700 Subject: 3B2 archive Message-ID: <4E506731.4050309@bitsavers.org> Al, managed to resuscitate the drives off my old server and found my copy of Bob Martel's 3b2 software archive, finally. (It had gotten lost in a hosting move) I don't seem to be able subscribe to cctalk, though; maybe you could post a note? The archive is at ftp://www.dragonsweb.org/mirrors/little.nhlink.net/pub/att/, with a b2zip'd version available as well at ftp://www.dragonsweb.org/mirrors/little.nhlink.net.tar.bz2 Thanks, jbdigriz From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 21 00:26:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:26:51 -0400 Subject: 3B2 archive In-Reply-To: <4E506731.4050309@bitsavers.org> References: <4E506731.4050309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E50971B.3030103@neurotica.com> On 08/20/2011 10:02 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Al, managed to resuscitate the drives off my old server and found my > copy of Bob Martel's 3b2 software archive, finally. (It had gotten lost > in a hosting move) I don't seem to be able subscribe to cctalk, though; > maybe you could post a note? The archive is at > ftp://www.dragonsweb.org/mirrors/little.nhlink.net/pub/att/, with a > b2zip'd version available as well at > ftp://www.dragonsweb.org/mirrors/little.nhlink.net.tar.bz2 I've had this file in my archives since mid-2007. Had it been considered lost?? I just checked them; my older copy of this tar file contains 197 files, while the one referenced above contains 194 files. I've not analyzed this any further, but I will if it'd be helpful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 21 11:51:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:51:57 -0700 Subject: Crumbling fan repair In-Reply-To: <4E50971B.3030103@neurotica.com> References: <4E506731.4050309@bitsavers.org>, <4E50971B.3030103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E50D53D.18973.5A2881@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a number of fairly high-quality DC fans (Papst, NMB, Panasonic), some of which are "Smart Fans" that I don't want to lose. All are plastic construction, not die-cast metal. I've noticed that on several, the supporting struts between the motor and frame have developed fractures. I've done some repairs with epoxy that seem to be holding. The body of these things seems to be made of some sort of polyamide (nylon?) with a lot of filler. The usual solvents (e.g. methylene chloride) don't make a mark, so solvent cement appears to be out of consideration. Am I wasting my time with 20 and 30 year old fans? Should I just scrap the lot and chalk the loss up to age? Experience of others would be much appreciated. --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 12:15:49 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:15:49 +0100 Subject: Crumbling fan repair In-Reply-To: <4E50D53D.18973.5A2881@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E506731.4050309@bitsavers.org> <4E50971B.3030103@neurotica.com> <4E50D53D.18973.5A2881@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: High quality and falling apart is an oxymoron I would probably replace Dave Caroline From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 21 11:49:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:49:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E5012BA.6010301@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 20, 11 04:02:02 pm Message-ID: > > On 08/20/2011 02:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > [RS232] > > > >> Ignore the standard, and leave the break-out box in the drawer. > >> After years of practically memorizing the (horrible) standard and trying > >> to do things "by the book" analytically, etc, I refer to it as "RS-232 > >> in-your-face" rather than "interface". > > > > It's odd... I would give the opposite advice. Since I started using a > > breakout box (or similar) to see just what the devices were doing I find > > I can wirte a serial cable and get it to work first time (at least most > > of the time :-)). > > Yes, I agree in principle, but in the wild there are really very few > machines that require any of the handshaking lines to be used, and if Hmmm.. I find rather too many devices expect some handshake inputs to be asserted before they will do anything. I guess it depends on what you work on. DEC machines almost never use hardware flow control, but a lot of test instruemtns do, for example. > you're trying to get a console port talking as quickly as possible (say, > at a customer site) then my approach really is the way to go. Plug, > doesn't work, re-plug, works. I can do that in less time than it takes > to fish the breakout box out of the tool bag. As ever I like to know why it works. I've been bittne too many times. > > I personally use a slightly different procedure in practice. I use > one of the quick-checkers that you describe, though, the one with seven Ah, so why didn't you say this tyhe first time? Those testers are very useful for finding wheter a device is a DTE or DCE, and are certainly the first thing I grab. Can you still get them I wonder? There are a couple of other things that I find solve an awful ot of RS232 problems. The firsti s the 'universal gender cable'. I've never seen this commercially, but it only takes a few minutes to make. It's a length of 25-wire IDC ribbon cable with a DB25 plug and a DB25 socket at each end (say put the socket about 3" along the cable and the plug at the very end), of course with corresponding pins connected. The 2 adapters I use a lot are a null-modem including the handshakes (crossed TxD and RxD, crossed RTS and CTS, crossed DTR with DSR strapped to CD) and a null modem with looped handshakes (crossed TxD and RxD, then RTS linked to CTS at each end and DTR linked to DSR and CD at each end). 99% of problems can bve solvd with those. Incidentally, I've yet to find a male DB25 on a piece of equipment wired as a DCE. Male is always DTE. Femal should eb DCE, but in practice it can be either. HP wre particularly bad about this!. Oh, and computers are normally DTEs, but there's at least one Apple ][ serial card that is wired as a DCE only (!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 21 12:24:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:24:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Crumbling fan repair In-Reply-To: <4E50D53D.18973.5A2881@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 21, 11 09:51:57 am Message-ID: > > I've got a number of fairly high-quality DC fans (Papst, NMB, > Panasonic), some of which are "Smart Fans" that I don't want to lose. > All are plastic construction, not die-cast metal. > > I've noticed that on several, the supporting struts between the motor > and frame have developed fractures. I've done some repairs with > epoxy that seem to be holding. Unfortunately many plastics do degrade with age (oehr factors, such as UV can speed it up, but they fail anyawy). It's one reason I prefer metal to plastic (although of course there are metal alloyst htat don;'t last too...) I've not seen thse fans, but can you strangthen them by taking them apart and fitting a metal plate overthe end, fixed to the frame and the motor end? > > The body of these things seems to be made of some sort of polyamide > (nylon?) with a lot of filler. The usual solvents (e.g. methylene > chloride) don't make a mark, so solvent cement appears to be out of > consideration. There are plastic glues (not solvents) that are supposed to stick to any plastics (one even claims to sticl to ptfe!). One of those might make a stronger repair. > > Am I wasting my time with 20 and 30 year old fans? Should I just > scrap the lot and chalk the loss up to age? Experience of others Only you can decide what your time is worth. I know I'd have ago because for me, a couple days repairing one is worth less than the \pounds 20 that a new one would cost. Others may differ. I;'ve enver had this fault in a fan thouhg. Fan faults I've repaired incldue bad bearings, burnt out windings (yes, I have rewound one) and power transitor failure on the PCB (fortunately that one used discrete components, not an IC so it was easy to fix). You may have noticed i often include a scheamtic of the fan in my HP computer schemeatics... If a plastic part failed I give serious thought to either replacing it with metal (not an option here, you don't want to have to make the entire fan hosuing) or at least strengtheneing it with ametal plate. That's what I would do here as I suggested above. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Aug 21 14:18:03 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 21:18:03 +0200 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <4E5012BA.6010301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110821211803.acf44c6b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:49:49 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Femal should eb DCE, but in practice it can > be either. HP wre particularly bad about this!. Sun too. Female DB25 connectors on DTEs... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 15:01:34 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:01:34 -0500 Subject: Crumbling fan repair In-Reply-To: <4E50D53D.18973.5A2881@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E506731.4050309@bitsavers.org>, <4E50971B.3030103@neurotica.com> <4E50D53D.18973.5A2881@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E51641E.9060307@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Am I wasting my time with 20 and 30 year old fans? Should I just > scrap the lot and chalk the loss up to age? Experience of others > would be much appreciated. If they were metal, I'd say to keep them, but with plastic ones maybe it's not worth retaining them if they're prone to age-related wear. It depends whether they're in your way and what you're likely to use them for, though. Personally I tend to hoard things "just in case" and only have a clear-out when I need the storage space for something else. I did have a comparatively-recent [plastic] processor fan die on me the other week; one of the blades actually parted company with the hub, jammed in the heatsink below, and locked everything solid - a failure type I've not seen before. Maybe they don't make them like they used to... :-) cheers Jules From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 21 15:10:44 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 13:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crumbling fan repair In-Reply-To: <4E50D53D.18973.5A2881@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E506731.4050309@bitsavers.org>, <4E50971B.3030103@neurotica.com> <4E50D53D.18973.5A2881@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The body of these things seems to be made of some sort of polyamide > (nylon?) with a lot of filler. The usual solvents (e.g. methylene > chloride) don't make a mark, so solvent cement appears to be out of > consideration. > > Am I wasting my time with 20 and 30 year old fans? Should I just > scrap the lot and chalk the loss up to age? Experience of others > would be much appreciated. > Chuck, if you really want to save the fans, you can have replacements printed up by Shapeways or Ponoko. You can download a very nice 3D modeling tool from AutoDesk called 123D that is free and designed for this kind of thing. I've had things printed by Ponoko in the past and they're great - just not fast. :) I don't know what the turn-around is for Shapeways. Both companies offer a number of material options including stainless steel. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 21 15:22:33 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:22:33 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> On 08/21/2011 12:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> It's odd... I would give the opposite advice. Since I started using a >>> breakout box (or similar) to see just what the devices were doing I find >>> I can wirte a serial cable and get it to work first time (at least most >>> of the time :-)). >> >> Yes, I agree in principle, but in the wild there are really very few >> machines that require any of the handshaking lines to be used, and if > > Hmmm.. I find rather too many devices expect some handshake inputs to be > asserted before they will do anything. I guess it depends on what you > work on. DEC machines almost never use hardware flow control, but a lot > of test instruemtns do, for example. Yes, I can buy that. I almost never interface to test equipment via RS-232. I do lots of HP-IB comm, but I have very little test equipment that uses RS-232. I'm almost always interfacing either old computers (and my focus there is on DEC), old networking equipment, or new networking equipment. All of those will almost always work with no handshaking lines at all. >> you're trying to get a console port talking as quickly as possible (say, >> at a customer site) then my approach really is the way to go. Plug, >> doesn't work, re-plug, works. I can do that in less time than it takes >> to fish the breakout box out of the tool bag. > > As ever I like to know why it works. I've been bittne too many times. Same here, and same here. I've found, however, that in the context of RS-232, "why it works" is usually preceded by "why doesn't it work", and the answer to that is almost always either "the standard just sucks" or "creative interpretation of the standard". In the context of networking equipment, it's usually a matter of the customer standing there sweating, begging me to get something working because half of the network is down. I could sit there for ten minutes with a breakout box turning it into a lesson on how that particular engineer decided to implement RS-232, or I can whip out my "make anything work" bundle of cables and get the network back up. >> I personally use a slightly different procedure in practice. I use >> one of the quick-checkers that you describe, though, the one with seven > > Ah, so why didn't you say this tyhe first time? I was probably in a rush; my apologies. > Those testers are very useful for finding wheter a device is a DTE or > DCE, and are certainly the first thing I grab. Can you still get them I > wonder? Yes, I've seen them new as recently as a year ago. I think Radio Shack (over here) even still carries them. They're available via eBay (new) all day long. > There are a couple of other things that I find solve an awful ot of RS232 > problems. The firsti s the 'universal gender cable'. I've never seen > this commercially, but it only takes a few minutes to make. It's a length > of 25-wire IDC ribbon cable with a DB25 plug and a DB25 socket at each > end (say put the socket about 3" along the cable and the plug at the very > end), of course with corresponding pins connected. Yes, those are very handy. I have a similar one that's commercially-made; it has both DB-25 and DE-9 connectors on each end. That was a neat trick; I grabbed it as soon as I saw it! > Incidentally, I've yet to find a male DB25 on a piece of equipment wired > as a DCE. Male is always DTE. Femal should eb DCE, but in practice it can > be either. HP wre particularly bad about this!. Oh, and computers are > normally DTEs, but there's at least one Apple ][ serial card that is > wired as a DCE only (!). Since the very first time I fought with an RS-232 interface (in-yer-face) decades ago, I've (as have you) seen so many violations of DCE vs. DTE, and of course that distinction was never useful to begin with, that I've decided (for me anyway) the best way to deal with that distinction is to ignore it. After all, is that PC on your desk a DTE or a DCE? Which role it plays depends on what you're doing with it. So now, what's the "correct" pinout? That's not the way I generally work, and I know full well that it's not the way you EVER work, but in this instance, in my experience, this is the best way to approach RS-232.fucker working The RS-232 standard is a piece of crap in this regard, but it isn't going away anytime soon, so we deal with it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Aug 21 18:53:08 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:53:08 -0500 Subject: looking for dec paper tape trays In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: anyone got any collecting dust would be nice to have something to store my pdp8 tapes in properly cause this storing them in the tub is not the best From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Aug 22 01:56:12 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 23:56:12 -0700 Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? Message-ID: <4E51FD8C.8070702@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- Anyone have a service manual for the HP 9485A (not the B or C)? I picked up three of these machines in fairly good physical condition just a couple of days ago, but their operating condition leaves something to be desired :). I've looked in the usual places (hpmuseum.net, and hp9845.net) but I can only find the manual for the B/C revisions. My understanding is that the "A" version is different in some ways (not really sure what the hardware differences are yet.) The good news is that one of the three 9845s just required some careful reseating of the cards and ROMs and it now appears to be working correctly (I haven't yet tested the printer (no paper yet) and I'm assuming the tape drives will require a bunch of work, assuming I ever find any tapes to use). I'd love to get the other two running as well, hence the need for the service manual. All three appear to be complete (with I/O, Mass Storage, and Graphics option ROMs), now if I could just get my hands on an HPIB interface... Thanks, Josh From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 22 04:16:25 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:16:25 +0200 Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? In-Reply-To: <4E51FD8C.8070702@mail.msu.edu> References: <4E51FD8C.8070702@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <000901cc60ac$2ea1f870$8be5e950$@xs4all.nl> Josh, The HP-IB interface shouldn't be a big problem, but you'll need a HP 98034B or a revised A version. The standard HP 98034A version doesn't support high-speed CS80 drives. If you want to part from one of the machines I would love to give one a new home. If you want to replace the ROM's I've several romboard pcb's (Angars design) so you can replace the system rom's by flash memory ( I'm not 100% sure they work for the 9845A I'll check it) You should ask Tony nice, if he reverse engineered the diagrams of the HP 9845A yet.. (he did the 9845B already) -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Josh Dersch > Verzonden: maandag 22 augustus 2011 8:56 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: HP 9845A service/user manuals? > > Hi all -- > > Anyone have a service manual for the HP 9485A (not the B or C)? I picked up > three of these machines in fairly good physical condition just a couple of days > ago, but their operating condition leaves something to be desired :). > > I've looked in the usual places (hpmuseum.net, and hp9845.net) but I can only > find the manual for the B/C revisions. My understanding is that the "A" version is > different in some ways (not really sure what the hardware differences are yet.) > > The good news is that one of the three 9845s just required some careful > reseating of the cards and ROMs and it now appears to be working correctly (I > haven't yet tested the printer (no paper yet) and I'm assuming the tape drives > will require a bunch of work, assuming I ever find any tapes to use). I'd love to > get the other two running as well, hence the need for the service manual. All > three appear to be complete (with I/O, Mass Storage, and Graphics option > ROMs), now if I could just get my hands on an HPIB interface... > > Thanks, > Josh From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Aug 22 10:31:49 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 11:31:49 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E527665.2090504@verizon.net> A few jobs back, where I spent about 10 years, I spent tons of time on interfacing various pieces of equipment. A popular application was serial<->ethernet as many people brought use-to-be serial-only applications online to utilize the available network connections, especially inter-building and across WANs/VPNs. While the network portion was my specialty and reason for being there, I would always get dragged into troubleshooting serial connections, and became pretty good at doing so. Asking the customer if his device is a DTE or a DCE is useless. Besides the fact that the answer only provides limited information anyway, customers always guess and almost always get it wrong. It became a joke amongst people in support that you should assume the opposite of what they tell you. Getting both the pinout AND directions of the signal from a reliable source (usually from the manufacturer of the equipment) was the only surefire way of knowing how to interface to it. There are some manufacturers who would use the hardware control leads to communicate information (more than just for flow-control). Was it maybe the programming interface for Motorola radios? Keith From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 22 11:21:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 09:21:27 -0700 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E527665.2090504@verizon.net> References: , <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com>, <4E527665.2090504@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E521F97.8969.C5086@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Aug 2011 at 11:31, Keith Monahan wrote: > There are some manufacturers who would use the hardware control leads > to communicate information (more than just for flow-control). Was it > maybe the programming interface for Motorola radios? Let's not forget the secondary channel interface as well as the peculiar setups of modems with low-speed "reverse" channels. Then there are the synchronous modems... Simple point-to-point async is simple by comparison! --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Aug 22 11:43:30 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:43:30 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E521F97.8969.C5086@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com>, <4E527665.2090504@verizon.net> <4E521F97.8969.C5086@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E528732.2070000@verizon.net> On 8/22/2011 12:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Aug 2011 at 11:31, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> There are some manufacturers who would use the hardware control leads >> to communicate information (more than just for flow-control). Was it >> maybe the programming interface for Motorola radios? > > Let's not forget the secondary channel interface as well as the > peculiar setups of modems with low-speed "reverse" channels. Then > there are the synchronous modems... > > Simple point-to-point async is simple by comparison! > > --Chuck > Sure. And I forgot the differential ones, too. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 22 12:13:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 10:13:46 -0700 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E528732.2070000@verizon.net> References: , <4E521F97.8969.C5086@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E528732.2070000@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E522BDA.15480.3C3832@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Aug 2011 at 12:43, Keith Monahan wrote: > Sure. And I forgot the differential ones, too. Do you mean RS-422 and RS-485? I tend to think of those more as multidrop/network signalling methods. Didn't Novell start out with an RS-422 networking scheme? --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 13:06:53 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:06:53 -0500 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi Rob, I have several old DEC US standard price books which would cover some of your equipment. The MVII would probably have a Qxxxx-xx system number on it, which would be for a particular hardware configuration, and usually software. The MVII probably had dozens, if not hundreds of configurations. The books were published quarterly then, and configurations and prices could change with every printing. Different schools got different educational discounts, and different companies received different discounts. So it was kind of a retail guideline. I assume there was a UK version. Paul On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC equipment I > have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I only have a couple > of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I am interested in. If > anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages with prices and options etc > that would be great. The equipment I am interested in are: > > MicroVAX II > MicroVAX 2000 > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) > VAXstation 4000 VLC > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 > MicroVAX 3400 > PDP11/24 > VT220 > VT420 > LA50 > Alpha 433au > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > DEC Professional 350 > > Thanks > > Rob > > From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Aug 22 13:31:14 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:31:14 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E522BDA.15480.3C3832@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E521F97.8969.C5086@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E528732.2070000@verizon.net> <4E522BDA.15480.3C3832@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E52A072.4080500@verizon.net> On 8/22/2011 1:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Aug 2011 at 12:43, Keith Monahan wrote: > >> Sure. And I forgot the differential ones, too. > > Do you mean RS-422 and RS-485? I tend to think of those more as > multidrop/network signalling methods. Didn't Novell start out with > an RS-422 networking scheme? > > --Chuck > Exactly. A lot (all?) of my RS-422 applications were point to point, I think. RS-449 on the DB37, and RS-530 on the DB25. With the addressable nature of RS-485, they had the tendency to be multidrop more often. There were some Allen Bradley PLCs, Scada systems, and the like to which we were interfaced. I dealt with both async applications, and sync applications between routers and CSU/DSUs when leased lines were much more popular. Cisco had(has) what they called a 5-in-1 interface(later more, maybe 8-in-1) with matching cables that had a high-density 60-pin connector on the router side, and then the appropriate connector on the other side. With shorting groups within the HD60, it told the cisco hardware which electrical standard to pick and use. The cable would also tell the router if it was appearing as a DTE or a DCE, and this would control directions of signals -- but also whether clock generation was allowed on the interface. DCE's could provide/source the clock, but DTE's could receive only. The router was typically the DTE, with the CSU/DSUs, multiplexors, etc being the DCE's. Normally the clock would be generated on the leased circuit, and then the CSU/DSU's on both ends of the link would recover the clock, and then sync the transmissions of the routers to it. We had one router that had in essence a frequency counter, and it could actually display in real-time(more or less) the current rate present on the clock interface. Cisco also had a DTE/DCE crossover cable with HD60's on both sides. One side was shorted to be a DTE and the other a DCE. You would enable clocking on the DCE side, and it would allow two routers to communicate back-to-back without the need for any intermediate equipment. I would also be remiss if I didn't mention V.35, probably the most popular serial sync interface on routers. Keith From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 22 15:13:37 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:13:37 +0100 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <032001cc6107$fb808130$f2818390$@ntlworld.com> I should have said I am only interested in list prices rather than discounts. The idea is just to work out what they would cost in today's prices for comparison to modern computers and I would just have to live with price variations over time. If you have some US prices you could let me see that would be great, just so long as you also tell me the date of the price list. If there is a choice I would prefer the oldest prices so that they are nearest to the list price at launch. Thanks! Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson > Sent: 22 August 2011 19:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment > > Hi Rob, > > I have several old DEC US standard price books which would cover some of > your equipment. The MVII would probably have a Qxxxx-xx system number on > it, which would be for a particular hardware configuration, and usually > software. The MVII probably had dozens, if not hundreds of configurations. > > The books were published quarterly then, and configurations and prices could > change with every printing. Different schools got different educational > discounts, and different companies received different discounts. So it was > kind of a retail guideline. I assume there was a UK version. > > Paul > > > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC > > equipment I have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I > > only have a couple of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I > > am interested in. If anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages > > with prices and options etc that would be great. The equipment I am > interested in are: > > > > MicroVAX II > > MicroVAX 2000 > > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) > > VAXstation 4000 VLC > > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 > > MicroVAX 3400 > > PDP11/24 > > VT220 > > VT420 > > LA50 > > Alpha 433au > > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > > DEC Professional 350 > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Aug 22 15:15:06 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 15:15:06 -0500 Subject: Intel MDS available in SC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 8/20/11, Rich wrote: > I got an email from someone in Landrum, SC (close to Greenville and >Greer) Grab it before it washes away. Rich, you might return cautions and good luck wishes to the original source for us. http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/graphics_at4.shtml?5-daynl#contents Hurricane Irene is currently headed for thereabouts. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 22 14:19:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:19:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm Message-ID: > > Hmmm.. I find rather too many devices expect some handshake inputs to be > > asserted before they will do anything. I guess it depends on what you > > work on. DEC machines almost never use hardware flow control, but a lot > > of test instruemtns do, for example. > > Yes, I can buy that. I almost never interface to test equipment via > RS-232. I do lots of HP-IB comm, but I have very little test equipment I _try_ to avoid RS232 in such circumstances, much prefering HPIB, but some lesser instruments only ahve RS232 interfaces :-( I have a telephone line simualtor which has both HPIB and RS232 interfaces on the back. The RS232 connector is a male DB25, helpfully labeleld 'RS232 (DTE)'. And that one will not send anything unless you assert some of the handshake lines. > that uses RS-232. I'm almost always interfacing either old computers > (and my focus there is on DEC), old networking equipment, or new DEC stuff almoast always ignores the handshake lines... > networking equipment. All of those will almost always work with no > handshaking lines at all. Right,... I forgot to metnionthat when I am sorting out an unknown device, I link it ot a terminal which I know the behaviour of (for excample, I know it'll ignroe handshake lines). Only having one unknown device helps a lot. Of coure sometimes I am asked to link up 2 devices I know little about. In this case, I take along a terminal of my own (often my trust HP95LX) and get ach device working seaprately if I can. It's quicker in the end. > or "creative interpretation of the standard". In my experience, it's the devices that interpret the standard to the letter that cause the most problems. mainly becasue they'll use RTS and CTS as half-duplex turn-awround signals and confuse the hell out of anything else... > Since the very first time I fought with an RS-232 interface > (in-yer-face) decades ago, I've (as have you) seen so many violations of > DCE vs. DTE, and of course that distinction was never useful to begin Well, it was useful for the original application (linking a terminal to a modem, and no other purpose). The fact that RS232 has been used for all sorts of other applications is not really the standard's fault. > with, that I've decided (for me anyway) the best way to deal with that > distinction is to ignore it. After all, is that PC on your desk a DTE > or a DCE? Which role it plays depends on what you're doing with it. So I think it's dififuclt to justify that a computer should be a DCE. > now, what's the "correct" pinout? > > That's not the way I generally work, and I know full well that it's > not the way you EVER work, but in this instance, in my experience, this > is the best way to approach RS-232.fucker working > > The RS-232 standard is a piece of crap in this regard, but it isn't > going away anytime soon, so we deal with it. The thing that annoys me is that (as commonly implemented), it's not symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge. OK, you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do you wap DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the time you can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving the DSR signal, but not always. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 22 15:09:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:09:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? In-Reply-To: <4E51FD8C.8070702@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 21, 11 11:56:12 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all -- > > Anyone have a service manual for the HP 9485A (not the B or C)? I > picked up three of these machines in fairly good physical condition just > a couple of days ago, but their operating condition leaves something to > be desired :). > > I've looked in the usual places (hpmuseum.net, and hp9845.net) but I can > only find the manual for the B/C revisions. My understanding is that > the "A" version is different in some ways (not really sure what the > hardware differences are yet.) I _believe_ the _A is quite diferent from the -B/-C. The last 2 machines are quite similar (differing mainly in the monitor section, the video circutiry being inside the monitor). As I am sure you know, these machines have 2 procesosrs, originally HP BPOC hybrid modules. One runs the user program (the 'Language Procssor Unit'), the other handhels I/O (the 'Periperal Processor Unit'). There's some arbitration logcic to connect these processors to the varios memory devices. In the -A, I beleive, the 2 processors are on one PCB, there's a separate PCB with the arbitration logic on it. In the -B, Each processor anf it's part of the arbirtration logic goes on a PCB (stlll 2 PCB,s but differnetly arranged). One advantag of this is that the LPU board can be replaced by a 'High Speed LPU Option' which is a set of 3 boards stffed with MAD2900 chips. Of course the backplane is differnt too. > > The good news is that one of the three 9845s just required some careful > reseating of the cards and ROMs and it now appears to be working > correctly (I haven't yet tested the printer (no paper yet) and I'm I think it'll use normal thermal fax paper. > assuming the tape drives will require a bunch of work, assuming I ever The tape drive mechansims are the same as those in the 9815 and 9825, and suffer the smae problem of a decayed captsn. There are various web pages giving repairs using things like heat-shrink sleeving or Citroen sleeve seals. > find any tapes to use). I'd love to get the other two running as well, > hence the need for the service manual. All three appear to be complete I am not sure the service manual is a lot of use now. Certainly for the -B it's a boardswapper guidewith little real inforamtion in it. Alas the only 90845 I have is a 0945B with the high-speed LPU. And while I've produced as shcmatic of that, I can't produce them of machines I don't own :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 22 15:12:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 21:12:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? In-Reply-To: <000901cc60ac$2ea1f870$8be5e950$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Aug 22, 11 11:16:25 am Message-ID: > The HP-IB interface shouldn't be a big problem, but you'll need a HP 98034B > or a revised A version. > The standard HP 98034A version doesn't support high-speed CS80 drives. Dos the 9845 support CS/80 drives at all? I thought that to use HPIB mass storage you needed a 3rd party ROM (e.g. the one from SSI) which is not easy to find. > If you want to part from one of the machines I would love to give one a new > home. > If you want to replace the ROM's I've several romboard pcb's (Angars design) > so you can replace the system rom's by flash memory ( I'm not 100% sure they > work for the 9845A I'll check it) > You should ask Tony nice, if he reverse engineered the diagrams of the HP > 9845A yet.. (he did the 9845B already) Alsa I haven't, mainly because I don't have a 9845A. It's not high on my list of things to look for, alas. If one is offered, I'll accept it with geatful thanks and reverse-engineer it, but there are other things I would rather own... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 22 14:09:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:09:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Crumbling fan repair In-Reply-To: <4E51641E.9060307@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Aug 21, 11 03:01:34 pm Message-ID: > > I did have a comparatively-recent [plastic] processor fan die on me the > other week; one of the blades actually parted company with the hub, jammed > in the heatsink below, and locked everything solid - a failure type I've > not seen before. Maybe they don't make them like they used to... :-) I had an old fan die in somewhat similar way. It had a Papst-type (external rotor) motor, the blandes were a plastic mouding that could be described has having a hollow cyclidriacl cetnre (which was pressed over the outisde of the rotor) with the 3 bl;ades integrally moulded with it. Anywy, the cylindrical section split down one side so that the blades fell off the rotor. That was one I didn't fix (althohgh I did use some of the parts as sapres ofr other siliar fans). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 22 15:44:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:44:31 -0700 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, Message-ID: <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Aug 2011 at 20:19, Tony Duell wrote: > The thing that annoys me is that (as commonly implemented), it's not > symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge. > OK, you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do > you wap DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the > time you can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving the > DSR signal, but not always. My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto- detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined via active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and CTS? It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power supply issues. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 22 16:21:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:21:45 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> On 08/22/2011 04:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The thing that annoys me is that (as commonly implemented), it's not >> symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge. >> OK, you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do >> you wap DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the >> time you can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving the >> DSR signal, but not always. > > My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto- > detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined > via active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and > CTS? It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power > supply issues. There were a few "smart cables". Many years ago I used one that was called, I think, "Smart Cable". ;) It had a plastic chassis with a few feet of ribbon cable coming out of each end. There were one or two slide switches on it. I don't recall much more about it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 22 16:29:40 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110822142648.P27442@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto- > detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined > via active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and > CTS? It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power > supply issues. Certainly. Would you like a few "RS232 Smart Cable"s? They obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human being with an LED tester and a breakout box. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 22 16:30:40 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 23:30:40 +0200 Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? In-Reply-To: References: <000901cc60ac$2ea1f870$8be5e950$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Aug 22, 11 11:16:25 am Message-ID: <000101cc6112$c4ff40f0$4efdc2d0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 22 augustus 2011 22:13 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP 9845A service/user manuals? > > > The HP-IB interface shouldn't be a big problem, but you'll need a HP > > 98034B or a revised A version. > > The standard HP 98034A version doesn't support high-speed CS80 drives. > > Dos the 9845 support CS/80 drives at all? I thought that to use HPIB mass > storage you needed a 3rd party ROM (e.g. the one from SSI) which is not easy to > find. > Yes the HP 9845B does, the manual says it will support the HP 79XX 08/09/10/11/12 but you need the 98413C ROM. And that makes it not very likely the HP 9845A would because it uses other ROM's and is older. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 22 16:32:41 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 23:32:41 +0200 Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? In-Reply-To: References: <4E51FD8C.8070702@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 21, 11 11:56:12 pm Message-ID: <000201cc6113$098696b0$1c93c410$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 22 augustus 2011 22:10 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP 9845A service/user manuals? > > > > > Hi all -- > > > > Anyone have a service manual for the HP 9485A (not the B or C)? I > > picked up three of these machines in fairly good physical condition > > just a couple of days ago, but their operating condition leaves > > something to be desired :). > > > > I've looked in the usual places (hpmuseum.net, and hp9845.net) but I > > can only find the manual for the B/C revisions. My understanding is > > that the "A" version is different in some ways (not really sure what > > the hardware differences are yet.) > > I _believe_ the _A is quite diferent from the -B/-C. The last 2 machines are quite > similar (differing mainly in the monitor section, the video circutiry being inside > the monitor). > > As I am sure you know, these machines have 2 procesosrs, originally HP BPOC > hybrid modules. One runs the user program (the 'Language Procssor Unit'), the > other handhels I/O (the 'Periperal Processor Unit'). There's some arbitration > logcic to connect these processors to the varios memory devices. > > In the -A, I beleive, the 2 processors are on one PCB, there's a separate PCB with > the arbitration logic on it. In the -B, Each processor anf it's part of the > arbirtration logic goes on a PCB (stlll 2 PCB,s but differnetly arranged). One > advantag of this is that the LPU board can be replaced by a 'High Speed LPU > Option' which is a set of 3 boards stffed with MAD2900 chips. > > Of course the backplane is differnt too. > > > > > The good news is that one of the three 9845s just required some > > careful reseating of the cards and ROMs and it now appears to be > > working correctly (I haven't yet tested the printer (no paper yet) and > > I'm > > I think it'll use normal thermal fax paper. > > > assuming the tape drives will require a bunch of work, assuming I ever > > The tape drive mechansims are the same as those in the 9815 and 9825, and > suffer the smae problem of a decayed captsn. There are various web pages > giving repairs using things like heat-shrink sleeving or Citroen sleeve seals. > > > find any tapes to use). I'd love to get the other two running as > > well, hence the need for the service manual. All three appear to be > > complete > > I am not sure the service manual is a lot of use now. Certainly for the -B it's a > boardswapper guidewith little real inforamtion in it. > > Alas the only 90845 I have is a 0945B with the high-speed LPU. And while I've > produced as shcmatic of that, I can't produce them of machines I don't own :-) > > -tony You can get the instructions and dimensions (and parts) from me. -Rik From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Aug 22 16:46:54 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modcomp minicomputer rescue Message-ID: <1314049614.95788.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is a large lot of vintage ex-JPL Modcomp gear available in the LA area, but it would require an extremely prompt pickup, with difficult logistics. These are classic TTL blinkenlights minis, with really sexy-looking front panels. It looks like there is enough material to satisfy several collectors. I'd be interested in hearing from interested folks in SoCal ASAP. --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 22 16:50:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:50:55 -0700 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <20110822142648.P27442@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com>, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110822142648.P27442@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E526CCF.19396.139F337@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Aug 2011 at 14:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > Would you like a few "RS232 Smart Cable"s? > > They obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human > being with an LED tester and a breakout box. Thanks; I wasn't sure if I'd seen them or not. I suppose a "not awfully smart" cable that consisted of a multipole double-throw switch would work about as well. If I need to, use one of my little jumper blocks (DB25F and DB25M and spaghetti inbetween) to fix any DTE/DCE conflicts (I also have DB25F- DB25F and DB25M-DB25M "straight through) jumpers to resolve gender issues). --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Aug 22 17:08:38 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 23:08:38 +0100 Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? In-Reply-To: <000201cc6113$098696b0$1c93c410$@xs4all.nl> References: <4E51FD8C.8070702@mail.msu.edu> <000201cc6113$098696b0$1c93c410$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Many years ago around a friends house we were messing with an HP computer and the smoke got out this is before I did any collecting but I did save:- http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_04_23_computers/P1010015.JPG Is this the cpu from one of those? Dave Caroline From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 22 17:20:29 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 23:20:29 +0100 Subject: Cabling RQDX3 to M9058 Message-ID: <032c01cc6119$b49322c0$1db96840$@ntlworld.com> I am a bit confused about this. I have an MicroVAX II in a BA123 enclosure with an RQDX3 which has a problem with not seeing the disks (which I know to work), when I try to boot from a disk I get DEVINACT. I am beginning to suspect a fault in either the RQDX3 or the M9058. I decided to make sure that the cable between them was the right way round as the cable I have does not have keyed connectors. Here is where I get confused. On the M9058 printset (http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/MP02259_RQDX3_schem_Oct85.pdf) it shows the M9058 as having pin 1 on the left of the card (when looking at the component side with J12 at the top). The printset does not show where pin 1 is on J1 of the RQDX3, but I had it connected to the uppermost side of the connector when the board was installed in its slot. In this configuration the front panel lights show green when I apply power. However this gets the error I mention above. I checked my MicroVAX II in a BA23, this machine accesses the disk just fine, but the cable is connected with pin 1 at the other side, ie opposite to the BA123. I tried inverting the cable at the RQDX3 in the BA123, but it still gets DEVINACT and this time the front panel lights don't work. I am pretty sure therefore that the cable was in the right way round in the first place, and that looking at the BA23 is a red herring, possibly with the cable being inverted at both ends and therefore "correct". Can anyone confirm that I have the cable oriented correctly in the BA123? In other words pin 1 at the bottom of the connector on the RQDX3 itself when installed in its slot, and on the M9058 pin 1 on the left of the card when viewed component side with J12 at the top (ie at the top again when the M9058 is mounted in its slot)? Thanks Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 22 18:41:10 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 16:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110822162937.B29453@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 22 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > There were a few "smart cables". Many years ago I used one that was > called, I think, "Smart Cable". ;) It had a plastic chassis with a few > feet of ribbon cable coming out of each end. There were one or two > slide switches on it. I don't recall much more about it. That's about all that there is to know about them. I guess that I could take pictures of them, or smash one open to see what's there. I've accumulated a shoebox full over the years, but never had a reason to want to use those over other approaches. On the other hand, the "matrix switch" (10 10throw slide switches, with a DB25 at each end) was more fun. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 22 19:18:52 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 01:18:52 +0100 Subject: Cabling RQDX3 to M9058 In-Reply-To: <032c01cc6119$b49322c0$1db96840$@ntlworld.com> References: <032c01cc6119$b49322c0$1db96840$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E52F1EC.2020804@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/08/2011 23:20, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I am a bit confused about this. I have an MicroVAX II in a BA123 enclosure > with an RQDX3 which has a problem with not seeing the disks (which I know to > work), when I try to boot from a disk I get DEVINACT. I am beginning to > suspect a fault in either the RQDX3 or the M9058. I decided to make sure > that the cable between them was the right way round as the cable I have does > not have keyed connectors. Here is where I get confused. > Can anyone confirm that I have the cable oriented correctly in the BA123? In > other words pin 1 at the bottom of the connector on the RQDX3 itself when > installed in its slot, and on the M9058 pin 1 on the left of the card when > viewed component side with J12 at the top (ie at the top again when the > M9058 is mounted in its slot)? Looking at the drawings I made of the M9058 many years ago, that looks correct, but my drawing of the layout just shows the arrows that are usually marked on the connectors. I no longer have an M9058 so can't check directly. Fortunately, there's an easy way to tell which end of the J12 connector is which, if you have a ohmmeter. On the M9058 J12, pins 1, 2, 3, 4 and 50 are (different) signal pins. Pins 45, 47, and 49 are all ground. Remember that all the odd-numbered pins are one row and all the even-numbered pins are the other row. So find three pins at one end that are all connected together and you've found pins 45/47/49, and therefore can determine that the pin in the same row but at the opposite end is pin 1. Ditto for the RQDX3 itself. BTW, all the odd-numbered pins on J1, J2, J3, J4, J9 and J11 are ground as well. The relevant diagram is at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/M9058_schematic.pdf and the other files in the same directory are some other relvant diagrams and pin descriptions. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 22 19:25:31 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 01:25:31 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <20110822162937.B29453@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> <20110822162937.B29453@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E52F37B.7060700@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/08/2011 00:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > I've accumulated a shoebox full over the years, but never had a reason to > want to use those over other approaches. > > On the other hand, the "matrix switch" (10 10throw slide switches, with a > DB25 at each end) was more fun. I have a neat little box which has no switches, but instead has a 10 x 10 plugboard, with the main signals from the DB25 connectors taken to two adjacent sides "X" and "Y". Inserting a pin at the intersection of any X and Y links the signals there. The side opposite each DB25 has a 10-section DIL LED so you can what's happening on the corresponding connector. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Aug 22 22:35:37 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:35:37 -0700 Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E532009.6050404@mail.msu.edu> On 8/22/2011 1:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I _believe_ the _A is quite diferent from the -B/-C. The last 2 machines > are quite similar (differing mainly in the monitor section, the video > circutiry being inside the monitor). > > As I am sure you know, these machines have 2 procesosrs, originally HP > BPOC hybrid modules. One runs the user program (the 'Language Procssor > Unit'), the other handhels I/O (the 'Periperal Processor Unit'). There's > some arbitration logcic to connect these processors to the varios memory > devices. > > In the -A, I beleive, the 2 processors are on one PCB, there's a separate > PCB with the arbitration logic on it. This does appear to be the case, at least from a simple visual inspection. There is one PCB containing two large heatsinked units, which I assume are the CPUs. > In the -B, Each processor anf it's > part of the arbirtration logic goes on a PCB (stlll 2 PCB,s but > differnetly arranged). One advantag of this is that the LPU board can be > replaced by a 'High Speed LPU Option' which is a set of 3 boards stffed > with MAD2900 chips. > > Of course the backplane is differnt too. > >> The good news is that one of the three 9845s just required some careful >> reseating of the cards and ROMs and it now appears to be working >> correctly (I haven't yet tested the printer (no paper yet) and I'm > I think it'll use normal thermal fax paper. Thanks, I'll drop by an office supply store this week and grab a couple of rolls. > The tape drive mechansims are the same as those in the 9815 and 9825, and > suffer the smae problem of a decayed captsn. There are various web pages > giving repairs using things like heat-shrink sleeving or Citroen sleeve > seals. Yeah, that's about what I figured. Am I correct in guessing that tapes for these are pretty hard to find, or is there an easy to find equivalent? > I am not sure the service manual is a lot of use now. Certainly for the > -B it's a boardswapper guidewith little real inforamtion in it. Well, at least since I have three of these machines to play with, boardswapping is at least an option (though I know it's not your favorite :)). I've done some basic testing of the power supplies and they all appear to be working nominally, so at least those're good -- any preventative maintenance you'd recommend for the supplies in these? > > Alas the only 90845 I have is a 0945B with the high-speed LPU. And while > I've produced as shcmatic of that, I can't produce them of machines I > don't own :-) Well, I'd be happy to send you one of mine, but I'm guessing the shipping across the pond would be prohibitive :). Thanks as always, - Josh > > -tony > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 22 23:46:15 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 22:46:15 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] PDP-11/23 and peripherals available Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 06:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Groups: comp.sys.dec From: olinhamrick at windstream.net Org: http://groups.google.com Subject: PDP-11/23 and peripherals available Id: <644fd724-48ed-4631-be38-9aca8a334d7b at b20g2000vbz.googlegroups.c om> ======== I have in storage a PDP-11/23 with two RLO-2 drives (I think), two or three VT100 (or 101?) terminals, a line printer and a spare RLO-2 drive. I would like to get rid of the whole lot, located in Mt. Pleasant, SC. The mini-mainframe was last powered up in about 1995. Does this stuff have any value? Is there a market for it or for any of the parts? Do you have any serious suggestions re how I might get rid of it. I have already had several suggestions such as 1) take it all out to sea and dump it to form a mini-artificial reef; 2) construct a catapult and send it deep into the Hell Hole Swamp; 3) buy it a one- way bus ticket to somewhere far away; 4) offer it to any of the local college IT/computer science depts. to be used as yard art. The whole mess weighs about 700 lbs. I would love to see it get recycled or put into a good home if there is one. Any serious suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks, Rick Hamrick From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Aug 23 00:51:37 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 06:51:37 +0100 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <75FDDFE2CDBB484B93C637FB9EAF14B9@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Well I remember my DEC salesman's price book well enough. In 1977 they where about a half inch thick, bound in blue and contained a print out from a DEC10 system reduced to about 2/3 size. The numbers in the pricelist did not really reflect the price at which systems were sold. Individual systems would be designed on paper and the prices worked out from the options in the book. By the time extras had been added in and discounts taken out you could not really equate them to the prices in the book. You then wrote out an order set (yes by hand) and got sign off's from sales management, field service and the product line (marketing). I think they then got faxed to the US and entered onto OAS (Order Admin System) One price I can remember is that in 1976 an LA36 30cps printing terminal was about ?900 UK list. (Has anybody got a UK one they don't want?) Mind you different product lines might well have had their own list prices. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: 22 August 2011 19:07 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment Hi Rob, I have several old DEC US standard price books which would cover some of your equipment. The MVII would probably have a Qxxxx-xx system number on it, which would be for a particular hardware configuration, and usually software. The MVII probably had dozens, if not hundreds of configurations. The books were published quarterly then, and configurations and prices could change with every printing. Different schools got different educational discounts, and different companies received different discounts. So it was kind of a retail guideline. I assume there was a UK version. Paul On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC equipment I > have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I only have a couple > of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I am interested in. If > anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages with prices and options etc > that would be great. The equipment I am interested in are: > > MicroVAX II > MicroVAX 2000 > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) > VAXstation 4000 VLC > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 > MicroVAX 3400 > PDP11/24 > VT220 > VT420 > LA50 > Alpha 433au > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > DEC Professional 350 > > Thanks > > Rob > > From axelsson at acc.umu.se Mon Aug 22 09:14:21 2011 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 16:14:21 +0200 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> Zane H. Healy skrev 2011-08-20 02:06: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-PDP-1-HANDBOOK-MANUAL-/220832138801 > > > Zane > > > The seller have lowered his price. Maybe it is more affordable now. /G?ran http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220838248644 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 01:18:04 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 01:18:04 -0500 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <75FDDFE2CDBB484B93C637FB9EAF14B9@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> <75FDDFE2CDBB484B93C637FB9EAF14B9@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: be kinda cool to find one of those books though and build a dream system hehehe On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 12:51 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > Well I remember my DEC salesman's price book well enough. > In 1977 they where about a half inch thick, bound in blue and contained a > print out from a DEC10 system reduced to about 2/3 size. > > The numbers in the pricelist did not really reflect the price at which > systems were sold. Individual systems would be designed on paper and the > prices worked out from the options in the book. > > By the time extras had been added in and discounts taken out you could not > really equate them to the prices in the book. > > You then wrote out an order set (yes by hand) and got sign off's from sales > management, field service and the product line (marketing). > > I think they then got faxed to the US and entered onto OAS (Order Admin > System) > > One price I can remember is that in 1976 an LA36 30cps printing terminal > was > about ?900 UK list. (Has anybody got a UK one they don't want?) Mind you > different product lines might well have had their own list prices. > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Paul Anderson > Sent: 22 August 2011 19:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment > > Hi Rob, > > I have several old DEC US standard price books which would cover some > of your equipment. The MVII would probably have a Qxxxx-xx system > number on it, which would be for a particular hardware configuration, > and usually software. The MVII probably had dozens, if not hundreds of > configurations. > > The books were published quarterly then, and configurations and prices > could change with every printing. Different schools got different > educational discounts, and different companies received different > discounts. So it was kind of a retail guideline. I assume there was a > UK version. > > Paul > > > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC equipment > I > > have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I only have a > couple > > of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I am interested in. If > > anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages with prices and options > etc > > that would be great. The equipment I am interested in are: > > > > MicroVAX II > > MicroVAX 2000 > > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) > > VAXstation 4000 VLC > > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 > > MicroVAX 3400 > > PDP11/24 > > VT220 > > VT420 > > LA50 > > Alpha 433au > > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > > DEC Professional 350 > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 23 01:30:32 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:30:32 +0100 Subject: Cabling RQDX3 to M9058 In-Reply-To: <4E52F1EC.2020804@dunnington.plus.com> References: <032c01cc6119$b49322c0$1db96840$@ntlworld.com> <4E52F1EC.2020804@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <034d01cc615e$2a145f20$7e3d1d60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 23 August 2011 01:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Cabling RQDX3 to M9058 > > On 22/08/2011 23:20, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I am a bit confused about this. I have an MicroVAX II in a BA123 > > enclosure with an RQDX3 which has a problem with not seeing the disks > > (which I know to work), when I try to boot from a disk I get DEVINACT. > > I am beginning to suspect a fault in either the RQDX3 or the M9058. I > > decided to make sure that the cable between them was the right way > > round as the cable I have does not have keyed connectors. Here is where I > get confused. > > > Can anyone confirm that I have the cable oriented correctly in the > > BA123? In other words pin 1 at the bottom of the connector on the > > RQDX3 itself when installed in its slot, and on the M9058 pin 1 on the > > left of the card when viewed component side with J12 at the top (ie at > > the top again when the > > M9058 is mounted in its slot)? > > Looking at the drawings I made of the M9058 many years ago, that looks > correct, but my drawing of the layout just shows the arrows that are usually > marked on the connectors. I no longer have an M9058 so can't check > directly. Fortunately, there's an easy way to tell which end of the J12 > connector is which, if you have a ohmmeter. > > On the M9058 J12, pins 1, 2, 3, 4 and 50 are (different) signal pins. > Pins 45, 47, and 49 are all ground. Remember that all the odd-numbered pins > are one row and all the even-numbered pins are the other row. So find three > pins at one end that are all connected together and you've found pins > 45/47/49, and therefore can determine that the pin in the same row but at > the opposite end is pin 1. Ditto for the RQDX3 itself. > BTW, all the odd-numbered pins on J1, J2, J3, J4, J9 and J11 are ground as > well. > > The relevant diagram is at > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/M9058_schematic.pdf > and the other files in the same directory are some other relvant diagrams and > pin descriptions. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Thanks very much for the information. I found the three pins which are shorted together and the ribbon is connecting them correctly, it is just that the ribbon is the wrong way round, with the red stripe on the high numbered pins. I now need to check if the ribbon itself or the RQDX3 or M9058 is faulty. I have a spare RQDX3 to try with but no spare M9058, so lets "hope" it is the RQDX3! Regards Rob From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 01:33:58 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:33:58 +0100 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: People need full part numbers with options else you may get a false impression Prices need dates that the price applies too On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC equipment I > have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I only have a couple > of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I am interested in. If > anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages with prices and options etc > that would be great. The equipment I am interested in are: > > MicroVAX II > MicroVAX 2000 > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) > VAXstation 4000 VLC > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 > MicroVAX 3400 > PDP11/24 > VT220 > VT420 VT420-EE,BE,CE,DE,EE,FE ?34780, Jan 1994 DECdirect price list > LA50 > Alpha 433au > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > DEC Professional 350 > > Thanks > > Rob > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 23 01:52:12 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 02:52:12 -0400 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: What was the base price for a Microvax 3100/85 on launch? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Caroline" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 2:33 AM Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment > People need full part numbers with options else you may get a false > impression > Prices need dates that the price applies too > > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: >> I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC equipment >> I >> have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I only have a >> couple >> of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I am interested in. If >> anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages with prices and options >> etc >> that would be great. The equipment I am interested in are: >> >> MicroVAX II >> MicroVAX 2000 >> MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) >> VAXstation 4000 VLC >> VAXstation 4000 Model 60 >> MicroVAX 3400 >> PDP11/24 >> VT220 >> VT420 > > VT420-EE,BE,CE,DE,EE,FE ?34780, Jan 1994 DECdirect price list > >> LA50 >> Alpha 433au >> DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP >> DEC Professional 350 >> >> Thanks >> >> Rob >> >> > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 23 02:39:00 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:39:00 +0100 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <035501cc6167$bd2b7790$378266b0$@ntlworld.com> OK, I am sure that different models have different prices, I didn't want to bother the list with all the details of what I have, but hoped that someone might have a catalogue covering some of the items below and scan some pages then I can check which actual model I have etc. Agree that a date is also needed, my preference is to get prices as close to the launch date as possible. Don?t understand the ?34780 price you mention below, I suspect that VT420s cost significantly less than that? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > Sent: 23 August 2011 07:34 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment > > People need full part numbers with options else you may get a false > impression Prices need dates that the price applies too > > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC > > equipment I have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I > > only have a couple of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I > > am interested in. If anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages > > with prices and options etc that would be great. The equipment I am > interested in are: > > > > MicroVAX II > > MicroVAX 2000 > > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) > > VAXstation 4000 VLC > > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 > > MicroVAX 3400 > > PDP11/24 > > VT220 > > VT420 > > VT420-EE,BE,CE,DE,EE,FE ?34780, Jan 1994 DECdirect price list > > > LA50 > > Alpha 433au > > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > > DEC Professional 350 > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 02:50:17 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 08:50:17 +0100 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <035501cc6167$bd2b7790$378266b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> <035501cc6167$bd2b7790$378266b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: oops missed a decimal point ?347.80 as for scanning, and reference 2 ft of shelf space in thin paper is a lot of work Dave Caroline On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > OK, I am sure that different models have different prices, I didn't want to > bother the list with all the details of what I have, but hoped that someone > might have a catalogue covering some of the items below and scan some pages > then I can check which actual model I have etc. Agree that a date is also > needed, my preference is to get prices as close to the launch date as > possible. > > Don?t understand the ?34780 price you mention below, I suspect that VT420s > cost significantly less than that? > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline >> Sent: 23 August 2011 07:34 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment >> >> People need full part numbers with options else you may get a false >> impression Prices need dates that the price applies too >> >> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Rob Jarratt >> wrote: >> > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC >> > equipment I have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I >> > only have a couple of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I >> > am interested in. If anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages >> > with prices and options etc that would be great. The equipment I am >> interested in are: >> > >> > MicroVAX II >> > MicroVAX 2000 >> > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) >> > VAXstation 4000 VLC >> > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 >> > MicroVAX 3400 >> > PDP11/24 >> > VT220 >> > VT420 >> >> VT420-EE,BE,CE,DE,EE,FE ?34780, Jan 1994 DECdirect price list >> >> > LA50 >> > Alpha 433au >> > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP >> > DEC Professional 350 >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Rob >> > >> > > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Aug 23 03:17:51 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 09:17:51 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: 1. I have an Ultra 5 I'll dig it out. 2. Serial Comms. Get a breakout box with LEDS, dip switches and patch wires. Attach one side only and check for active signals (Leds on). Disconnect and check the other side. Start by connecting pins 2,3 and 7 cross 2 and 3 if the same pin is active. Check both ends for speeds, bits per character, number of stop bits per character and parity. 9600,8,1,N is a good starting point. You will be surprised how many systems will work with this setup. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 22 August 2011 22:22 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work On 08/22/2011 04:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The thing that annoys me is that (as commonly implemented), it's not >> symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge. >> OK, you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do >> you wap DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the >> time you can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving the >> DSR signal, but not always. > > My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto- > detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined > via active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and > CTS? It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power > supply issues. There were a few "smart cables". Many years ago I used one that was called, I think, "Smart Cable". ;) It had a plastic chassis with a few feet of ribbon cable coming out of each end. There were one or two slide switches on it. I don't recall much more about it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 23 04:46:35 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:46:35 +0100 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> <035501cc6167$bd2b7790$378266b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <035f01cc6179$8d742d00$a85c8700$@ntlworld.com> I thought it might have been a decimal point, but then I thought why would DEC quibble over 80/20p and not round the price? Understand that all the price lists would be a lot of info, but aren't there a few choice pages which would cover at least some of the items below, particularly the items that would have been in a DECdirect catalogue? If you have this material, perhaps you could lend it to me instead of scanning a load of stuff? Is that something you would consider? Hopefully it would not need to be all 2ft worth! Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > Sent: 23 August 2011 08:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment > > oops missed a decimal point > ?347.80 > as for scanning, and reference > 2 ft of shelf space in thin paper is a lot of work > > Dave Caroline > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > OK, I am sure that different models have different prices, I didn't > > want to bother the list with all the details of what I have, but hoped > > that someone might have a catalogue covering some of the items below > > and scan some pages then I can check which actual model I have etc. > > Agree that a date is also needed, my preference is to get prices as > > close to the launch date as possible. > > > > Don?t understand the ?34780 price you mention below, I suspect that > > VT420s cost significantly less than that? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > >> Sent: 23 August 2011 07:34 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment > >> > >> People need full part numbers with options else you may get a false > >> impression Prices need dates that the price applies too > >> > >> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Rob Jarratt > >> > >> wrote: > >> > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC > >> > equipment I have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. > >> > I only have a couple of catalogues but they don't cover all the > >> > things I am interested in. If anyone has catalogues and could scan > >> > the pages with prices and options etc that would be great. The > >> > equipment I am > >> interested in are: > >> > > >> > MicroVAX II > >> > MicroVAX 2000 > >> > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) VAXstation 4000 VLC > >> > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 MicroVAX 3400 > >> > PDP11/24 > >> > VT220 > >> > VT420 > >> > >> VT420-EE,BE,CE,DE,EE,FE ?34780, Jan 1994 DECdirect price list > >> > >> > LA50 > >> > Alpha 433au > >> > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > >> > DEC Professional 350 > >> > > >> > Thanks > >> > > >> > Rob > >> > > >> > > > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 23 04:49:37 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:49:37 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <036001cc6179$fa7f5e10$ef7e1a30$@ntlworld.com> Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you may have missed the fact that I solved my problem. I used a breakout box to determine the cable I needed. It was very simple, Rx and Tx crossed over and CTS and RTS shorted together at the PC end. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: 23 August 2011 09:18 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work > > 1. I have an Ultra 5 I'll dig it out. > 2. Serial Comms. > Get a breakout box with LEDS, dip switches and patch wires. > Attach one side only and check for active signals (Leds on). > Disconnect and check the other side. > Start by connecting pins 2,3 and 7 cross 2 and 3 if the same pin is active. > Check both ends for speeds, bits per character, number of stop bits per > character and parity. 9600,8,1,N is a good starting point. > > You will be surprised how many systems will work with this setup. > > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 22 August 2011 22:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work > > On 08/22/2011 04:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> The thing that annoys me is that (as commonly implemented), it's not > >> symmetical, which means that null-modem cables are at best a kludge. > >> OK, you swap TxD with RxD, RTS with CTS and DSR with DTR, but what do > >> you wap DCD with (and yse, some devices do insist on it). Most of the > >> time you can strap DCD input on a DTE to whatever is also driving > >> the DSR signal, but not always. > > > > My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto- > > detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined via > > active circuitry the connections between TD and RD and RTS and CTS? > > It would seem not to be overly difficult, other than for power supply > > issues. > > There were a few "smart cables". Many years ago I used one that was called, > I think, "Smart Cable". ;) It had a plastic chassis with a few feet of ribbon cable > coming out of each end. There were one or two slide switches on it. I don't > recall much more about it. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 23 05:35:13 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modcomp minicomputer rescue In-Reply-To: <1314049614.95788.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1314095713.7101.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There are multiple parties interested in one of these machines, but no one who has contacted me so far appears willing and/or able to deal with the logistics of the removal, myself included. The gear is for sale through www.gsaauctions.gov: Select: All Categories > Computer Equipment and Accessories The listing is titled: MISC COMPUTER EQUIPMENT (NASA JPL) Sale-Lot Number: 91QSCI11008707 Besides the description and photos, there is also a spreadsheet listing the lot inventory, under heading "Additional Documents". There are several people who are interested in machines, and a successful buyer should have no trouble selling a couple for decent money. The big problem is the tight schedule for removal, and the fact that there's a lot material there to be distributed, stored, or disposed of. It would certainly be helpful to be in the SoCal area with some storage. I would be happy to see this equipment rescued by anybody who wants it. If anyone has contacts with a scrapper/recycler who could be worked with, please contact me. I'd be willing to put up some cash toward a bid in exchange for the right to cherry-pick a small amount of the hardware. Note that the auction closes at 4PM *Central* time today, but the gear is in fact located in Fontana, CA. I talked to Domingo there, who is a JPL employee. Though the address is indicated as a logistics company, JPL is simply leasing space in their warehouse. Domingo seemed like a nice enough fellow, and confirmed the number of racks. I'm told they have a loading dock, and the material will be brought to the dock. --Bill --- On Mon, 8/22/11, William Maddox wrote: > From: William Maddox > Subject: Modcomp minicomputer rescue > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 2:46 PM > There is a large lot of vintage > ex-JPL Modcomp gear available in the LA area, but it would > require an extremely prompt pickup, with difficult > logistics.? These are classic TTL blinkenlights minis, > with really sexy-looking front panels. It looks like there > is enough material to satisfy several collectors.? I'd > be interested in hearing from interested folks in SoCal > ASAP. > > --Bill > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Aug 23 05:43:53 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 03:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Awesome Modcomp front panels In-Reply-To: <1314095713.7101.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1314096233.42936.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The pictures on the GSA auction listing don't show a very good look at the front panels. Here's a close-up of another machine from the web: http://www.flickr.com/photos/39561370 at N00/238688860/ That's the most awesome front-panel I've ever seen on a 16-bit mini. DEC, eat your heart out. --Bill From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 23 05:56:34 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:56:34 +0200 Subject: Awesome Modcomp front panels In-Reply-To: <1314096233.42936.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1314095713.7101.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1314096233.42936.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110823105633.GA24329@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 03:43:53AM -0700, William Maddox wrote: > The pictures on the GSA auction listing don't show a very good > look at the front panels. Here's a close-up of another machine > from the web: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/39561370 at N00/238688860/ > I think these particular machines(in the flickr pictures) are still running, or has just been phased out. Cheers, Pontus From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Aug 23 09:34:52 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 09:34:52 -0500 Subject: RS-232 smart cables (was: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:14 -0500 8/23/11, Fred wrote: >Would you like a few "RS232 Smart Cable"s? > >They obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human >being with an LED tester and a breakout box. This depends on the human being, or possibly the definition of "conscious". I was too ignorant to get my Rainbow talking to my NeXT without mine, a few years back. I still have all 3, and next time I connect them, I'll likely still be too ignorant (unconscious?) to do without the Smart Cable... -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 10:51:18 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:51:18 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <036001cc6179$fa7f5e10$ef7e1a30$@ntlworld.com> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> <036001cc6179$fa7f5e10$ef7e1a30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E53CC76.5000901@gmail.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you may have missed the fact > that I solved my problem. I used a breakout box to determine the cable I > needed. It was very simple, Rx and Tx crossed over and CTS and RTS shorted > together at the PC end. And you may have missed the fact that this conversation has evolved into a theoretical discussion. ;) Peace... Sridhar From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Aug 23 11:21:13 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:21:13 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E53CC76.5000901@gmail.com> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> <036001cc6179$fa7f5e10$ef7e1a30$@ntlworld.com> <4E53CC76.5000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E53D379.8040900@verizon.net> On 8/23/2011 11:51 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Rob Jarratt wrote: >> Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you may have missed the fact >> that I solved my problem. > > And you may have missed the fact that this conversation has evolved into > a theoretical discussion. ;) > > Peace... Sridhar Hahaha. Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always takes precedence over real technical problems. Of course. :) Keith From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Aug 23 11:54:52 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:54:52 +0100 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E53CC76.5000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: http://atariuser.blogspot.com/2011/08/atari-continues-efforts-to-alienat e-and.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 23 12:00:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E53D379.8040900@verizon.net> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> <036001cc6179$fa7f5e10$ef7e1a30$@ntlworld.com> <4E53CC76.5000901@gmail.com> <4E53D379.8040900@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110823093511.O58560@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Keith M wrote: > On 8/23/2011 11:51 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you may have missed the fact > >> that I solved my problem. > > > > And you may have missed the fact that this conversation has evolved into > > a theoretical discussion. ;) > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > Hahaha. Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always takes precedence over > real technical problems. Of course. :) ?? What "off-topic BS" has there been in THIS thread? Or, is ANYTHING other than the answer to one specific current problem "off-topic BS"? discussion of appropriate tools? discussion of procedures to determine an answer? 'twould seem that so far, this thread has been as technical as the original request, and on-topic for this list, even if people were interested in the TOPIC, not just stating the answer to this specific problem. We apologize for the technical discussion of fishing V giving him a fish for his Sun Ultra. Oh, well. Build a man a fire, he will be warm for the night; set a man on-fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life. I'm not even sure that I would agree with your "off-ropic BS" valuation if I were to have looked up and reported the details of a known FATALITY from the frustration of RS232 interfacing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 23 12:02:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:02:40 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2011 12:54 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > http://atariuser.blogspot.com/2011/08/atari-continues-efforts-to-alienat > e-and.html I smell suits! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 23 12:09:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:09:48 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <20110823093511.O58560@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> <036001cc6179$fa7f5e10$ef7e1a30$@ntlworld.com> <4E53CC76.5000901@gmail.com> <4E53D379.8040900@verizon.net> <20110823093511.O58560@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E53DEDC.4020007@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2011 01:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> And you may have missed the fact that this conversation has evolved into >>> a theoretical discussion. ;) >>> >>> Peace... Sridhar >> >> Hahaha. Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always takes precedence over >> real technical problems. Of course. :) > > ?? > What "off-topic BS" has there been in THIS thread? A 64-bit multi-hundred-MHz UltraSPARC system. Go have some coffee, Fred. Jeeze. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 23 12:20:13 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > http://atariuser.blogspot.com/2011/08/atari-continues-efforts-to-alienat > e-and.html I'd reply with "Estoppel, bitch." ..but that's just me. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 23 12:20:44 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/23/2011 12:54 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> http://atariuser.blogspot.com/2011/08/atari-continues-efforts-to-alienat >> e-and.html > > I smell suits! Overlaid with the unmistakable stench of MBA. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 12:38:11 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:38:11 -0500 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <035f01cc6179$8d742d00$a85c8700$@ntlworld.com> References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> <035501cc6167$bd2b7790$378266b0$@ntlworld.com> <035f01cc6179$8d742d00$a85c8700$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: best way to get prices would be to find bill of sale.............. got one that states my pdp8a sold for 1800$ in 78 along with a spectrometor that cost $48,000 From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Aug 23 12:38:23 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 18:38:23 +0100 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <035f01cc6179$8d742d00$a85c8700$@ntlworld.com> References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> <035501cc6167$bd2b7790$378266b0$@ntlworld.com> <035f01cc6179$8d742d00$a85c8700$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: It was probably a round number before VAT. On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I thought it might have been a decimal point, but then I thought why would > DEC quibble over 80/20p and not round the price? > > Understand that all the price lists would be a lot of info, but aren't > there > a few choice pages which would cover at least some of the items below, > particularly the items that would have been in a DECdirect catalogue? If > you > have this material, perhaps you could lend it to me instead of scanning a > load of stuff? Is that something you would consider? Hopefully it would not > need to be all 2ft worth! > > Thanks > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > > Sent: 23 August 2011 08:50 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment > > > > oops missed a decimal point > > ?347.80 > > as for scanning, and reference > > 2 ft of shelf space in thin paper is a lot of work > > > > Dave Caroline > > > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Rob Jarratt < > robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> > > wrote: > > > OK, I am sure that different models have different prices, I didn't > > > want to bother the list with all the details of what I have, but hoped > > > that someone might have a catalogue covering some of the items below > > > and scan some pages then I can check which actual model I have etc. > > > Agree that a date is also needed, my preference is to get prices as > > > close to the launch date as possible. > > > > > > Don?t understand the ?34780 price you mention below, I suspect that > > > VT420s cost significantly less than that? > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > > >> Sent: 23 August 2011 07:34 > > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >> Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment > > >> > > >> People need full part numbers with options else you may get a false > > >> impression Prices need dates that the price applies too > > >> > > >> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Rob Jarratt > > >> > > >> wrote: > > >> > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC > > >> > equipment I have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. > > >> > I only have a couple of catalogues but they don't cover all the > > >> > things I am interested in. If anyone has catalogues and could scan > > >> > the pages with prices and options etc that would be great. The > > >> > equipment I am > > >> interested in are: > > >> > > > >> > MicroVAX II > > >> > MicroVAX 2000 > > >> > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) VAXstation 4000 VLC > > >> > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 MicroVAX 3400 > > >> > PDP11/24 > > >> > VT220 > > >> > VT420 > > >> > > >> VT420-EE,BE,CE,DE,EE,FE ?34780, Jan 1994 DECdirect price list > > >> > > >> > LA50 > > >> > Alpha 433au > > >> > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP > > >> > DEC Professional 350 > > >> > > > >> > Thanks > > >> > > > >> > Rob > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 23 12:48:09 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:48:09 -0700 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> References: , <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Aug 2011 at 13:02, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/23/2011 12:54 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > http://atariuser.blogspot.com/2011/08/atari-continues-efforts-to-ali > > enat e-and.html > > I smell suits! It should be pointed out to these guys that ICANN has a procedure for arbitrating domain name disputes and that they should take their dispute to the apropriate ICANN division--or offer to purchase the domain name outright. Threatening letters are a way of life for tort ghouls. An appropriately worded (in only the way a good lawyer can) response often puts a stop to such things. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 23 12:54:29 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:54:29 -0700 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: From: G?ran Axelsson Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:14 AM > Zane H. Healy skrev 2011-08-20 02:06: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-DEC-DIGITAL-EQUIPMENT-PDP-1-HANDBOOK-MANUAL-/220832138801 > The seller have lowered his price. Maybe it is more affordable now. > /G?ran > http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220838248644 I don't remember what I paid for mine, but it won't have been as much as 20% of the reduced price. That was perhaps 5 years ago. If these things have really gone up that much, I need to think about selling it. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Aug 23 12:54:49 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:54:49 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <20110823093511.O58560@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> <036001cc6179$fa7f5e10$ef7e1a30$@ntlworld.com> <4E53CC76.5000901@gmail.com> <4E53D379.8040900@verizon.net> <20110823093511.O58560@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E53E969.2050207@verizon.net> On 8/23/2011 1:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com *plonk* From useddec at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 12:55:41 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 12:55:41 -0500 Subject: Original Prices of DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <032001cc6107$fb808130$f2818390$@ntlworld.com> References: <028001cc5f38$3b6035b0$b220a110$@ntlworld.com> <032001cc6107$fb808130$f2818390$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hi Rob, Do any of your systems Have a Qxxxx-xx number on them? I'll try to scan some pages in the next few weeks, but I don't think I can just look up MVII. Complete numbers are much better to work with. Paul On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I should have said I am only interested in list prices rather than > discounts. The idea is just to work out what they would cost in today's > prices for comparison to modern computers and I would just have to live with > price variations over time. If you have some US prices you could let me see > that would be great, just so long as you also tell me the date of the price > list. If there is a choice I would prefer the oldest prices so that they are > nearest to the list price at launch. > > Thanks! > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson >> Sent: 22 August 2011 19:07 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Original Prices of DEC Equipment >> >> Hi Rob, >> >> I have several old DEC US standard price books which would cover some of >> your equipment. The MVII would probably have a Qxxxx-xx system number on >> it, which would be for a particular hardware configuration, and usually >> software. The MVII probably had dozens, if not hundreds of configurations. >> >> The books were published quarterly then, and configurations and prices > could >> change with every ?printing. Different schools got different educational >> discounts, and different companies received different discounts. So it was >> kind of a retail guideline. I assume there was a UK version. >> >> Paul >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Rob Jarratt >> wrote: >> > I would like to find out the original prices of some of the DEC >> > equipment I have when it first came out, preferably the UK prices. I >> > only have a couple of catalogues but they don't cover all the things I >> > am interested in. If anyone has catalogues and could scan the pages >> > with prices and options etc that would be great. The equipment I am >> interested in are: >> > >> > MicroVAX II >> > MicroVAX 2000 >> > MicroVAX 3100 (Models 30, 40, 80, 95) >> > VAXstation 4000 VLC >> > VAXstation 4000 Model 60 >> > MicroVAX 3400 >> > PDP11/24 >> > VT220 >> > VT420 >> > LA50 >> > Alpha 433au >> > DEC 2000 Model 300 AXP >> > DEC Professional 350 >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Rob >> > >> > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 23 12:56:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 13:56:17 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E53E9C1.5090901@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2011 01:20 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> http://atariuser.blogspot.com/2011/08/atari-continues-efforts-to-alienat >>> e-and.html >> >> I smell suits! > > Overlaid with the unmistakable stench of MBA. Yep. Makes me want to barf. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 23 13:02:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 11:02:01 -0700 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> References: , <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5388A9.10542.619003@cclist.sydex.com> Perhaps these French guys should file suit against the Finnish police. From Wikipedia: "Atari, abbreviation of Finnish registry term "ammatti- ja taparikollinen" ("professional and habitual criminal") used by Finnish police" Reality is sometimes stranger than fiction... --Chuck From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 13:27:10 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:27:10 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I suspect that most companies with ties to computing's past really don't really understand or care about fans of ancient hardware and software. Atari's heavy-handedness is a good example in the realm of "small iron" but examples can be found in the "large iron" realm favored by many people on this list too... Mentec/successor's stonewalling of the PDP-11 community and IBM's occasional lash-outs against Hercules come to mind quickly. Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 23 13:36:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:36:26 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2011 02:27 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > I suspect that most companies with ties to computing's past really > don't really understand or care about fans of ancient hardware and > software. Atari's heavy-handedness is a good example in the realm of > "small iron" but examples can be found in the "large iron" realm > favored by many people on this list too... Mentec/successor's > stonewalling of the PDP-11 community and IBM's occasional lash-outs > against Hercules come to mind quickly. Well IBM is losing real money. Atari, today, is irrelevant. What is it that they think they're going to accomplish? Someone should just buy them, open up the intellectual property, and fire all the idiot suits who work there. Should cost about eight bucks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 13:22:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:22:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <20110822142648.P27442@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 22, 11 02:29:40 pm Message-ID: > Would you like a few "RS232 Smart Cable"s? I've always been curious as to exactly what these contain, and what th eswtiches set. Any clues? > > They obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human > being with an LED tester and a breakout box. I think it's always the case that a clueful person armed with test gear will beat a simple 'automatic' device... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 13:25:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:25:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Aug 22, 11 11:08:38 pm Message-ID: > > Many years ago around a friends house we were messing with an HP > computer and the smoke got out > this is before I did any collecting but I did save:- > > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2007/2007_04_23_computers/P1010015.JPG > > Is this the cpu from one of those? That certianly looks like an HP BPC processor module. They were used in several computers (9825, 9831, 9835, 9845 at least), and even in some instruments I think. I also think there were sceral versions, AFAIK the 2 moduels ina 9845 are noit identical (I can't be sure becasue my 9845B, having the high-speed LPU only has one suck CPU module in it). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 13:16:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:16:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 22, 11 01:44:31 pm Message-ID: > My memory is getting fuzzy, but were there ever any "gender auto- > detect" cables? In other words, one that automatically determined I don;t remeebr any truely automatic ones, but there were things with a few LEDs and sldie switches where you fiddled with the switches until the maximum numbero LEDs were alight and that was supposed to make the right connections. I assume a couple of the LEDs monitored TxD and RxD on one of the ends of the cvble, one of the switched did a straight or cross conection so that by setting aid swithc until both LEDs glowed, you had the right connections for TxD and RxD. Well, unless the device was receivbe-only in which case you couldn't tell which setting was the right one.. I never had such a cable, as I said earlier I prefer to know exactly which signals each end is driving. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 14:05:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:05:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <20110822162937.B29453@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 22, 11 04:41:10 pm Message-ID: > On the other hand, the "matrix switch" (10 10throw slide switches, with a > DB25 at each end) was more fun. Some of those 'universal' switching adapters (or patchboards) had the problem that you couldn't strap 2 signals at ne end of the cable withoug it goign to soemthign at the other end. In particlar doing things like looping cak RTS to CTS and each end with no connection to the otehr end was impossible YEasr ago I made a universal RS232 adapter. It used a lot of DIP switches and a pair of DB25 conenctors. From waht I rememebr : A DPDt swithc did the obvios staright/cross connection of TxD and RxD. There were 4 off 4-way DIP switches associated with each connector and 4 further switches linking them. The following circuit was built 4 times : RTS --/ o----+ +---/ o---RTS CTS --/ o----+ +---/ o---CTS DSR --/ o----+-----/ o------+---/ o---DSR DTR --/ o----+ +---/ o---DTR These circuits could be used to link any handshake line at one end to any line at the other end, or, bu openning the middle switch to loop back handshake lines at one or othre end. Or of course to do things like DTR at one end driving DSR and CTS at the other end. I think I added a couple more swtiches to link the DCD line on each conenctor to the DSR line o tne hsame connetor. It worked wrll, and I nevr found a device that couldn't be got to work using it. On the toerh hand, working out the settings of 40 switches took as long (if not longer) than soldering up a custom cable... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 14:37:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:37:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E53D379.8040900@verizon.net> from "Keith M" at Aug 23, 11 12:21:13 pm Message-ID: > Hahaha. Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always takes precedence over > real technical problems. Of course. :) How is a discussion of the RS232 intreface and tools/equipment to get it working off-topic? Like it or not, the RS232 interface is commonly available on classic computers, meeting vairous 'standards' :-). there are laos, I beilve RS232 interfacesa for more modern machines (I am sure I've seen USB-RS232 cables). Linijng classic computers toghetr, or linking them to modern machiens for the purposes of data transfer (either archiving that whihc is on the calssic machine, or transfering software from the web (say) orto the classic mahcine) would appeer to be 100% _on_ topic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 23 14:16:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:16:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9845A service/user manuals? In-Reply-To: <4E532009.6050404@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Aug 22, 11 08:35:37 pm Message-ID: > > In the -A, I beleive, the 2 processors are on one PCB, there's a separate > > PCB with the arbitration logic on it. > > This does appear to be the case, at least from a simple visual > inspection. There is one PCB containing two large heatsinked units, > which I assume are the CPUs. Yes. They wrre commonly nicknamed 'Honda Heads' becuase they look like the cylinder heat of an air-cooled motorbike engine :-). I nthe -B at least there's a smaller heatsinked hybrid circuit on each of the tape controlelr boards under the keybaord. Is that the case in the -A too? > > The tape drive mechansims are the same as those in the 9815 and 9825, and > > suffer the smae problem of a decayed captsn. There are various web pages > > giving repairs using things like heat-shrink sleeving or Citroen sleeve > > seals. > > Yeah, that's about what I figured. Am I correct in guessing that tapes > for these are pretty hard to find, or is there an easy to find equivalent? >From what I remammeber the tape are not pre-formatted. They;re the same tapes as are used in the 9825, 9815, 85, etc. Not common but not hard to find eitehr. You cna use TU58 tapes, but this destroyes the clock trakcs on said tapes makingthem useless for the original applciation in the DEC drive. TU58s are not that common either. Somewhere I read of a failry simple hardware mod (change a resistor o nthe tape drive PCB I think to iuclrease the write current to use a higher coercivity tape in the same type of cartridge. I've never tried it. > > > I am not sure the service manual is a lot of use now. Certainly for the > > -B it's a boardswapper guidewith little real inforamtion in it. > > Well, at least since I have three of these machines to play with, > boardswapping is at least an option (though I know it's not your > favorite :)). I've done some basic testing of the power supplies and > they all appear to be working nominally, so at least those're good -- Teh -B PSU, at least if you have the high=speed LPU, is complex. IIRC it's on 5 PCBsm 2 push-pull choppers, etc. And the control board cotnains 17 ICs....I do not fancy having to fix that too often :-) > any preventative maintenance you'd recommend for the supplies in these? > > > > > Alas the only 90845 I have is a 0945B with the high-speed LPU. And while > > I've produced as shcmatic of that, I can't produce them of machines I > > don't own :-) > > Well, I'd be happy to send you one of mine, but I'm guessing the > shipping across the pond would be prohibitive :). Alas I think you're right. The -B at least is a large and hevy machine, and I asusem the -A is similar. Maybe one will turn up over here (although a -C would be more interesting to me, I'd love tolook at that colour video boardwith the 2903s on it). -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 23 15:34:59 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:34:59 -0600 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: In article , Rich Alderson writes: > If these > things have really gone up that much, I need to think about selling it. They haven't and you don't. Its just another person thinking that they have hit gold because LQQK! I HAVE SOMETHING OLD, IT MUST BE R at RE!! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 23 15:41:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 16:41:06 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <4E541062.2050606@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2011 04:34 PM, Richard wrote: >> If these >> things have really gone up that much, I need to think about selling it. > > They haven't and you don't. > > Its just another person thinking that they have hit gold because LQQK! > I HAVE SOMETHING OLD, IT MUST BE R at RE!! Oh good heavens, let's be realistic here. I'm sorry but, there's no way an original printed handbook for a friggin' PDP-1 can be anything BUT rare. As in, REALLY rare. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 16:01:15 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:01:15 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: > They haven't and you don't. This manual is really only somewhat rare. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 23 16:05:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:05:51 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2011 05:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> They haven't and you don't. > > This manual is really only somewhat rare. Yeah, what with all the gazillions of PDP-1s that were built. I call "bullshit". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 23 16:24:17 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:24:17 -0700 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> honeywell had one PDP-1 they probably had 100 engineers using it or designing for it. I don't know how many had Dec manuals, but I have the engineering notes of a fellow who had both the original documents and copies. they were doing a variety of projects, and moved on with other PDP's with their subsequent work, but started with a lot of people using the PDP as a potential asset. Some of the memos have fairly long cc: lists, and I know several seem to have been managers, so the 100 might be on the high side, but there were a lot of managers with minions on the list in 62 or 63 for the info. I don't agree bullshit, but agree with Bill's somewhat description. Who knows how many will jump out of dad's or grandpa's pile, or get burned? I recently rescued some Lunar Orbitor 1 photographs, and may get some other artifacts, so something as mundane as PDP1 documents must rank below that when the people who go thru estates see things. (saying if they missed space stuff, we are probably way behind that). Jim > Yeah, what with all the gazillions of PDP-1s that were built. > > I call "bullshit". > > -Dave From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 23 16:31:16 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 15:31:16 -0600 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > They haven't and you don't. > > This manual is really only somewhat rare. The entire thing is also on bitsavers, so you only really need to buy it if you are obsessed with a physical original. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 23 16:34:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:34:59 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E541D03.7070706@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2011 05:24 PM, jim s wrote: > honeywell had one PDP-1 > > they probably had 100 engineers using it or designing for it. I don't > know how many had Dec manuals, but I have the engineering notes of a > fellow who had both the original documents and copies. > > they were doing a variety of projects, and moved on with other PDP's > with their subsequent work, but started with a lot of people using the > PDP as a potential asset. Some of the memos have fairly long cc: lists, > and I know several seem to have been managers, so the 100 might be on > the high side, but there were a lot of managers with minions on the list > in 62 or 63 for the info. > > I don't agree bullshit, but agree with Bill's somewhat description. Who > knows how many will jump out of dad's or grandpa's pile, or get burned? > > I recently rescued some Lunar Orbitor 1 photographs, and may get some > other artifacts, so something as mundane as PDP1 documents must rank > below that when the people who go thru estates see things. (saying if > they missed space stuff, we are probably way behind that). The reason for my calling of "bullshit" was that there were 53 PDP-1s built. Even if we generously say there were ten copies of that manual printed per system, and optimistically say that only 90% of them were lost or destroyed, that means there are maybe 53 left. In all my years of eBaying (I was one of their first few hundred users) this is the second one that has appeared there. I was the winner of the first one in 1999, at about $200. I never got it; the seller flat-out admitted to me that he had sold it to someone else for more, and mailed back my money order. This other one we're discussing is the only other one to have appeared there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 23 16:35:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:35:46 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <4E541D32.1000208@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2011 05:31 PM, Richard wrote: >>> They haven't and you don't. >> >> This manual is really only somewhat rare. > > The entire thing is also on bitsavers, so you only really need to buy > it if you are obsessed with a physical original. You, as someone who claims to be starting a museum, ought to be ashamed of yourself for making that statement. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 23 17:28:06 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:28:06 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E53CC76.5000901@gmail.com> References: <4E516909.7000501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 21, 11 04:22:33 pm, <4E525D3F.7522.FD282A@cclist.sydex.com> <4E52C869.6000508@neurotica.com> <036001cc6179$fa7f5e10$ef7e1a30$@ntlworld.com> <4E53CC76.5000901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03c701cc61e3$f255ee10$d701ca30$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sridhar Ayengar [mailto:ploopster at gmail.com] > Sent: 23 August 2011 16:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Rob Jarratt > Subject: Re: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Amid the extensive discussions about RS-232 you may have missed the > > fact that I solved my problem. I used a breakout box to determine the > > cable I needed. It was very simple, Rx and Tx crossed over and CTS and > > RTS shorted together at the PC end. > > And you may have missed the fact that this conversation has evolved into a > theoretical discussion. ;) > > Peace... Sridhar I had indeed noticed that the conversation has moved on :-) I was only replying to a reply which was still actually trying to solve my problem, and I didn't want anyone to waste time trying to help me further when I didn't need any more help. Regards Rob From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 23 17:59:51 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 18:59:51 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <3642B61F86F74C80842244A23648742B@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim s" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 5:24 PM Subject: Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) > I recently rescued some Lunar Orbitor 1 photographs, and may get some > other artifacts, so something as mundane as PDP1 documents must rank below > that when the people who go thru estates see things. (saying if they > missed space stuff, we are probably way behind that). > > Jim How many people saved old computer manuals compared to Lunar Orbiter photographs? I might be wrong but photographs are not that pricey, original negatives on the other hand are (you can make a million pictures from those). Rarity and value are two different things anyway. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 23 18:02:01 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:02:01 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E543169.9030502@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/08/2011 20:37, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hahaha. Exactly. and that any off-topic BS always takes precedence over >> real technical problems. Of course. :) > > How is a discussion of the RS232 intreface and tools/equipment to get it > working off-topic? Like it or not, the RS232 interface is commonly > available on classic computers, meeting vairous 'standards' :-). there > are laos, I beilve RS232 interfacesa for more modern machines (I am sure > I've seen USB-RS232 cables). Sure. Every one of my team has a personal-issue USB-to-RS232/DE9 serial adapter, because they're so useful, and I keep two or three in strategic places in the machine rooms as well (so the systems guys don't keep trying to steal^X borrow ours). A few of our more recent laptop purchases were chosen on the specific basis that they have RS232 serial ports. Never mind the latest CPU and gigabytes of RAM, if it runs Kermit and/or supports PuTTY in serial line mode, it's good. Why? Because as quite a lot of people reading this are already aware, modern network switches from almost every major vendor (Cisco, HP, Juniper, Extreme, etc) as well as most proper servers and many disk shelves have RS232 console ports (or LOM[1] ports), which is how you initially configure them, even if the ports are sometimes RJ45-style jacks rather than DE9s. [1] Lights-Out Management > Linijng classic computers toghetr, or > linking them to modern machiens for the purposes of data transfer (either > archiving that whihc is on the calssic machine, or transfering software > from the web (say) orto the classic mahcine) would appeer to be 100% _on_ > topic. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 23 18:02:00 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:02:00 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E543168.2050600@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/08/2011 20:05, Tony Duell wrote: > Some of those 'universal' switching adapters (or patchboards) had the > problem that you couldn't strap 2 signals at ne end of the cable withoug > it goign to soemthign at the other end. In particlar doing things like > looping cak RTS to CTS and each end with no connection to the otehr end > was impossible Some of Modular Technology's Interfakers were like that, but my matrix board breakout box has three lines for each interface that could be tied to any signal(s) without going anywhere. Most useful gadget I ever bought, and still in use -- and not just at home for hobby use.. Photo at http://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/6074843016/in/photostream (and my Interfaker is shown in the adjacent photo) You can see it's currently plugged to link pins 6,8 and 20 on one side without affecting anything else. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 23 18:32:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 16:32:54 -0700 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E543169.9030502@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4E543169.9030502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E53D636.25839.190813C@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2011 at 0:02, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Why? Because as quite a lot of people reading this are already aware, > modern network switches from almost every major vendor (Cisco, HP, > Juniper, Extreme, etc) as well as most proper servers and many disk > shelves have RS232 console ports (or LOM[1] ports), which is how you > initially configure them, even if the ports are sometimes RJ45-style > jacks rather than DE9s. It isn't just switches; many consumer devices have, if not RS-232 ports, headers (usually 3V logic levels) to hook to a traditional serial line. I have a DTV converter box with a DE9M--hooking a 9600N81 terminal to it gets me an interactive debug display at powerup. My DSL router has a set of 4 pads that are a serial tty console hookup for the BusyBox Linux. I have a FAX send/receive box from the early 90's that has a set (10) of pads that hook to the serial I/O interface on the NEC V40 CPU. Since the thing also has a 1.44M floppy interface, I've gotten it to run CP/M 86. I suspect that if I probe around in some of my other consumer appliances, I'd find that anything with a decent-sized MPU in it has a serial interface for some purpose. One little item I keep around for such stuff is a TTL/CMOS board with an MAX232N hookup to translate those logic levels to RS232C ones. Very handy... --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Tue Aug 23 19:19:57 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 17:19:57 -0700 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <3642B61F86F74C80842244A23648742B@dell8300> References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> <3642B61F86F74C80842244A23648742B@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E5443AD.5020402@jwsss.com> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim s" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 5:24 PM > Subject: Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) > > >> I recently rescued some Lunar Orbitor 1 photographs, and may get some >> other artifacts, so something as mundane as PDP1 documents must rank >> below that when the people who go thru estates see things. (saying >> if they missed space stuff, we are probably way behind that). >> >> Jim > > How many people saved old computer manuals compared to Lunar Orbiter > photographs? I might be wrong but photographs are not that pricey, > original negatives on the other hand are (you can make a million > pictures from those). Rarity and value are two different things anyway. > I am referring to transparancies. 4 x 5 an 8 x 10 photos of the spacecraft from some Boeing internal publishing group. You got my exact point. These transparancies were on the list to be trashed, but my friend (son) saw them and moved all such he saw in the cleanout to the save pile. The envelope came to me with an note "burn" on it, that is how close it came. You got my point, if this wasn't recognized by an average person cleaning out an estate, there is even less chance of papers / software / manuals being rescued. sometimes the person doing the cleaning is going thru some sort of partum emotions, and unless you are right there, it all gets tossed as well. We have the cpm disk collection of (don someone??) that is still in limbo / lost for that reason, to name but one instance. I'm married to an understanding and loving wife who appreciates what I do to some extent and would contact people to try to save what I have should I not be able to do that myself. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Aug 23 21:37:52 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 19:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E53D636.25839.190813C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E543169.9030502@dunnington.plus.com> <4E53D636.25839.190813C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Aug 2011 at 0:02, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> Why? Because as quite a lot of people reading this are already aware, >> modern network switches from almost every major vendor (Cisco, HP, >> Juniper, Extreme, etc) as well as most proper servers and many disk >> shelves have RS232 console ports (or LOM[1] ports), which is how you >> initially configure them, even if the ports are sometimes RJ45-style >> jacks rather than DE9s. > > It isn't just switches; many consumer devices have, if not RS-232 > ports, headers (usually 3V logic levels) to hook to a traditional > serial line. I have a DTV converter box with a DE9M--hooking a > 9600N81 terminal to it gets me an interactive debug display at > powerup. I find it rather amusing that the latest crop of televisions often have rs232 ports. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 21:58:27 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 22:58:27 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > honeywell had one PDP-1 > > they probably had 100 engineers using it or designing for it. DEC was always pretty generous with free manuals, too. A fifty cent manual here and there could result in a single machine sale that pays all the freight. Even all those pesky students. For the record, two of those manuals have passed through me. -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 23 22:09:30 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:09:30 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E546B6A.20908@telegraphics.com.au> On 23/08/11 10:58 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> honeywell had one PDP-1 >> >> they probably had 100 engineers using it or designing for it. > > DEC was always pretty generous with free manuals, too. A fifty cent manual > here and there could result in a single machine sale that pays all the > freight. Even all those pesky students. > > For the record, two of those manuals have passed through me. Undigested, I hope. --T > > -- > Will > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 22:31:14 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 22:31:14 -0500 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: thats how they make their money though and atari was bought out On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/23/2011 02:27 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > >> I suspect that most companies with ties to computing's past really >> don't really understand or care about fans of ancient hardware and >> software. Atari's heavy-handedness is a good example in the realm of >> "small iron" but examples can be found in the "large iron" realm >> favored by many people on this list too... Mentec/successor's >> stonewalling of the PDP-11 community and IBM's occasional lash-outs >> against Hercules come to mind quickly. >> > > Well IBM is losing real money. Atari, today, is irrelevant. What is it > that they think they're going to accomplish? > > Someone should just buy them, open up the intellectual property, and fire > all the idiot suits who work there. Should cost about eight bucks. > > -Dave > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 23 22:36:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 23:36:59 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> Sure. But knowing about their treachery doesn't make it honorable. -Dave On 08/23/2011 11:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > thats how they make their money though and atari was bought out > > On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 08/23/2011 02:27 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: >> >>> I suspect that most companies with ties to computing's past really >>> don't really understand or care about fans of ancient hardware and >>> software. Atari's heavy-handedness is a good example in the realm of >>> "small iron" but examples can be found in the "large iron" realm >>> favored by many people on this list too... Mentec/successor's >>> stonewalling of the PDP-11 community and IBM's occasional lash-outs >>> against Hercules come to mind quickly. >>> >> >> Well IBM is losing real money. Atari, today, is irrelevant. What is it >> that they think they're going to accomplish? >> >> Someone should just buy them, open up the intellectual property, and fire >> all the idiot suits who work there. Should cost about eight bucks. >> >> -Dave >> >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From markarmbrennan at gmail.com Tue Aug 23 09:26:42 2011 From: markarmbrennan at gmail.com (mark brennan) Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 15:26:42 +0100 Subject: collecting sales guides and Brochures Message-ID: Hello It has been some years since I was last on the list but here goes, I am involved with an on-line computer history preservation site its URL is www.1000bit.com we have a good collection of computer brochures but we are looking for more. I was therefore wondering would any of the list members have old brochure, sales guides etc that they would be will to part with or sell, I am quite happy to pay a fee and shipping I am look for most things from 1984 - to 1999 on various companies here are just a few Apollo/AT&T/DEC/CRAY/DG/IBM/NCR/NEC/Netframe/Tricord/Pyramid and Wang etc regards and many thanks Mark email markarmbrennan AT gmail DOT com From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 00:41:17 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 00:41:17 -0500 Subject: collecting sales guides and Brochures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: has one for the GE faunic Workmaster 2 On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 9:26 AM, mark brennan wrote: > Hello > > It has been some years since I was last on the list but here goes, > I am involved with an on-line computer history preservation site its > URL is www.1000bit.com we have a good collection of computer brochures > but we are looking for more. > I was therefore wondering would any of the list members have old > brochure, sales guides etc that they would be will to part with or > sell, I am quite happy to pay a fee and shipping > I am look for most things from 1984 - to 1999 on various companies > here are just a few > Apollo/AT&T/DEC/CRAY/DG/IBM/NCR/NEC/Netframe/Tricord/Pyramid and Wang > etc > > regards and many thanks > > Mark > email markarmbrennan AT gmail DOT com > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Aug 24 02:54:02 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 08:54:02 +0100 Subject: Awesome Modcomp front panels In-Reply-To: <1314096233.42936.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1314095713.7101.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1314096233.42936.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1800E51822E348399DA248C0E122DABE@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Well when I worked at DEC they were considered to be a poor copy of the DEC original. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Maddox Sent: 23 August 2011 11:44 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Awesome Modcomp front panels The pictures on the GSA auction listing don't show a very good look at the front panels. Here's a close-up of another machine from the web: http://www.flickr.com/photos/39561370 at N00/238688860/ That's the most awesome front-panel I've ever seen on a 16-bit mini. DEC, eat your heart out. --Bill From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Aug 24 05:22:16 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:22:16 +0000 Subject: Sun Solaris md5sums? Message-ID: <201108241022.p7OAMKav012032@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> If anybody has md5sum.txt files from Sun Solaris versions or can compute them from Solaris ISOs downloaded directly from Sun, would you please post them on this list? md5sums on Solaris Studio would be appreciated also. I lost a bunch of files and I want to make sure any replacement copies I can scrounge are legit. I have not been able to find anything using archive.org on Sun's old site. Thanks guys. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 24 07:44:29 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 08:44:29 -0400 Subject: Sun Solaris md5sums? In-Reply-To: <201108241022.p7OAMKav012032@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> References: <201108241022.p7OAMKav012032@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E54F22D.9000905@telegraphics.com.au> On 24/08/11 6:22 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > If anybody has md5sum.txt files from Sun Solaris versions or can compute > them from Solaris ISOs downloaded directly from Sun, would you please post > them on this list? md5sums on Solaris Studio would be appreciated also. > > I lost a bunch of files and I want to make sure any replacement copies I > can scrounge are legit. I have not been able to find anything using > archive.org on Sun's old site. Thanks guys. > Intel: MD5 (Solaris10_9-10_VM.tar.bz2) = 66bac5f6913b4761d3bc43369904fc86 MD5 (SolarisStudio12.2-linux-x86-tar-ML.tar.bz2) = b5d8527ab0eb2232d97f93893116828f MD5 (SolarisStudio12.2-solaris-x86-pkg-ML.tar.bz2) = 319b25921ceacaaa3460a078ebf65bc0 MD5 (SunStudio12ml-solaris-x86-200709-ii.tar.bz2) = 04194bc06708af99eef52d9bc14d5712 MD5 (SunStudio12ml-solaris-x86-200709-pkg.tar.bz2) = 6afef9b9d97b53e414936b21de3bfd3f MD5 (SunStudio12mlPrepSys-solaris-x86-200709.tar.bz2) = a526185665b092af3afd2246f89003b8 MD5 (sol-10-u3-companion-ga.iso) = e6394eb9a98f730b4a295f74af51568d MD5 (sol-10-u3-ga-x86-dvd.iso) = 308f19269b250bf03b7a597d85d471cd MD5 (sol-10-u6-companion-ga-iso.zip) = c95f780fd662c6599bbdb120a0abf479 MD5 (sol-10-u6-ga1-x86-dvd.iso) = ae8e9aa4a1a3f3fd8846a4caef9f09e2 MD5 (sol-10-u7-companion-ga-iso.zip) = 1aea6b179483f56744f2b5183b0b1c58 MD5 (sol-10-u7-ga-x86-dvd.iso) = 6e1fc99eee3cdb0e88b8322521fd60a3 MD5 (sol-10-u8-companion-ga-iso.zip) = 22038cd13374d3405dc65c7075030fb8 MD5 (sol-10-u8-ga-x86-dvd.iso) = 9df7fd02d82976fd3ec38a18d1a57335 MD5 (sol-10-u9-ga-x86-dvd.iso) = c96bb1fb33081231c72c93add331e338 MD5 (studio11-sol-x86.tar.bz2) = 866676febfa8f27f127c902f46d49ca0 SPARC: MD5 (sparc/SolarisStudio12.2-solaris-sparc-pkg-ML.tar.bz2) = b5cceea4213f2bdc9ed8d428b88aec7c MD5 (sparc/SunStudio12ml-solaris-sparc-200709-pkg.tar.bz2) = ce36ff5d58c2e2b228a6ba0179bf615a MD5 (sparc/sol-10-u9-ga-sparc-dvd.iso) = 6f4b2dedf9fa09b143e6216807d7f388 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 24 09:52:51 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 08:52:51 -0600 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E546B6A.20908@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> <4E546B6A.20908@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article <4E546B6A.20908 at telegraphics.com.au>, Toby Thain writes: > On 23/08/11 10:58 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> honeywell had one PDP-1 > >> > >> they probably had 100 engineers using it or designing for it. > > > > DEC was always pretty generous with free manuals, too. A fifty cent manual > > here and there could result in a single machine sale that pays all the > > freight. Even all those pesky students. > > > > For the record, two of those manuals have passed through me. > > Undigested, I hope. In Will's spare time, he's a vintage computing mule :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Aug 24 10:04:00 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 10:04:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for Sun Ultra5 RAM Message-ID: Don't suppose anyone has any U5 RAM they'd be willing to sell me? Getting a "Memory Address not Aligned" on my Ultra5. Hoping it's just the RAM and not something else. Replies offlist, please. Thanks chaps (and chapettes); - JP Iowa From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 24 13:22:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:22:59 -0400 Subject: Sun Solaris md5sums? In-Reply-To: <201108241022.p7OAMKav012032@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> References: <201108241022.p7OAMKav012032@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E554183.6060907@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2011 06:22 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > If anybody has md5sum.txt files from Sun Solaris versions or can compute > them from Solaris ISOs downloaded directly from Sun, would you please post > them on this list? md5sums on Solaris Studio would be appreciated also. > > I lost a bunch of files and I want to make sure any replacement copies I > can scrounge are legit. I have not been able to find anything using > archive.org on Sun's old site. Thanks guys. I've re-compressed most of mine using bzip2; if you like I can generate md5 checksums of the uncompressed ISO images. Would that be helpful? What I have is pasted below my .sig. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL apophis$ ls -R solaris* compilers compilers: cooltools/ forte7/ gccfss/ SolarisStudio12.2-linux-x86-tar-ML.tar.bz2 SolarisStudio12.2-solaris-sparc-pkg-ML.tar.bz2 SolarisStudio12.2-solaris-x86-pkg-ML.tar.bz2 studio11/ studio8/ studio_9_solsparc.iso.gz SunStudio12ml-linux-x86-200709-pkg.tar.bz2 SunStudio12ml-solaris-sparc-200709-pkg.tar.bz2 SunStudio12ml-solaris-x86-200709-pkg.tar.bz2 SunStudio12u1-Linux-x86-tar-ML.tar.bz2 SunStudio12u1-SunOS-SPARC-pkgs.tar.bz2 SunStudio12u1-SunOS-x86-pkgs-ML.tar.bz2 WorkShop-6_U1-FCS-solsparc.tar.bz2 compilers/cooltools: SPROcmt.SPARCV9.tar SUNWgccfss.tar.bz2 SPROcmt.X64.tar SUNWscgfss.tar.bz2 SUNWgccfss_runtime.tar.bz2 swt-3.4-gtk-solaris-sparc.zip compilers/forte7: ForteDev-sparc-install.pdf ForteDev_sparc-s1scc-FCS-ML-solsparc.tar.bz2 serials.txt compilers/gccfss: SUNW0scgfss421.tar.bz2 SUNW0scgfss433.tar.bz2 SUNWgccfss432.tar.bz2 SUNW0scgfss432.tar.bz2 SUNWgccfss421.tar.bz2 SUNWgccfss433.tar.bz2 compilers/studio11: docs/ studio11-sol-sparc.tar.bz2 studio11-lin-x86.tar.bz2 studio11-sol-x86.tar.bz2 compilers/studio11/docs: 819-3683.pdf 819-3686.pdf 819-3690.pdf 819-3693.pdf 819-3696.pdf 819-3684.pdf 819-3687.pdf 819-3691.pdf 819-3694.pdf 819-3697.pdf 819-3685.pdf 819-3688.pdf 819-3692.pdf 819-3695.pdf compilers/studio8: cc_readme.txt SunONEStudio8.iso.gz docs/ SunONEStudio8.license Studio_8_sol9_patches.tar SunONEStudio8.tar.gz studiocc_8_x86.iso.gz compilers/studio8/docs: analyzing.pdf cug.pdf flib.pdf migration.pdf perflibug.pdf cppintval.pdf dbx.pdf fpg.pdf ncg.pdf whatsnew.pdf cpplug.pdf f95intval.pdf fug.pdf openmp.pdf solaris10: sol-10-u10-ga-sparc-dvd.iso sol-10-u7-ga-sparc-v2.iso.bz2 sol-10-u10-ga-x86-dvd.iso sol-10-u7-ga-sparc-v3.iso.bz2 sol-10-u6-ga1-sparc-v1.iso.bz2 sol-10-u7-ga-sparc-v4.iso.bz2 sol-10-u6-ga1-sparc-v2.iso.bz2 sol-10-u7-ga-sparc-v5.iso.bz2 sol-10-u6-ga1-sparc-v3.iso.bz2 sol-10-u8-ga-sparc-dvd.iso.bz2 sol-10-u6-ga1-sparc-v4.iso.bz2 sol-10-u8-ga-x86-dvd.iso.bz2 sol-10-u6-ga1-sparc-v5.iso.bz2 sol-10-u9-ga-sparc-dvd.iso sol-10-u7-ga-sparc-dvd.iso.bz2 sol-10-u9-ga-x86-dvd.iso sol-10-u7-ga-sparc-v1.iso.bz2 solaris7: easy_acc_server_3.iso.bz2 sol7_1199_supplemental.iso.bz2 easy_acc_server_docs.iso.bz2 sol7_maint_sparc.iso.bz2 flash_answerbook.iso.bz2 sol7_sparc_inst.iso.bz2 ns_451.iso.bz2 symon_201.iso.bz2 sol7_1199_docs.iso.bz2 solaris8: sol-8-hw4-install-sparc.iso.gz sol-8-hw4-sparc-v2.iso.gz sol-8-hw4-sparc-v1.iso.gz solaris9: patches/ sol-9-u7-sparc-v1.iso.gz sol-9-u7-ga-supp.iso.gz sol-9-u7-sparc-v2.iso.gz From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 24 13:29:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 19:29:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E543168.2050600@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 24, 11 00:02:00 am Message-ID: > > On 23/08/2011 20:05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Some of those 'universal' switching adapters (or patchboards) had the > > problem that you couldn't strap 2 signals at ne end of the cable withoug > > it goign to soemthign at the other end. In particlar doing things like > > looping cak RTS to CTS and each end with no connection to the otehr end > > was impossible > > Some of Modular Technology's Interfakers were like that, but my matrix > board breakout box has three lines for each interface that could be tied Now that I like! > to any signal(s) without going anywhere. Most useful gadget I ever > bought, and still in use -- and not just at home for hobby use.. Photo > at http://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/6074843016/in/photostream (and my > Interfaker is shown in the adjacent photo) I wonder if these things evre turn up for sane prices on E-bay? I do have a couple of unusual breakout boxes. The 'breakout' part is convemntion (DIP swtiches ot interrupt each signal line nad patch leads). They have extra facilities. One is a pocket sized thing that'll do a bit error rate ttest, detect signal transitions, etc (there's an 8085 + EPROM + 8155 I/O inside). The other is a briefcase sized thing that not only has a breakout box but also will capture the data from the line, display it (LCD display), primnt it internal stripprinter), do RS232-current loop conversions (with different baud rates on the 2 sides), RS232-parallel (Centronics or Data Products IIRC) ocnversison and even program EPROMS (!). A couple of other things that I've found uzeful. My larger 'conventional' breakout box uses 2mm plugs/sockets for the patch leads. I made up a cable consisiting of a DB25 socket with pins 3 and 7 wired to 2mm plugs. I can plug that into a terminal and use it to monitor the data on either signal line in siad breakout box. The othre thing I find very useful is a pocket terminal. I use an HP95LX palmtop. The nromal serial cable for that wsa designed to link it to a PC for data transfer and ends in a DCE-wired DE9 socket. It came with an adapter to conver that to a DB25 socket, also DCE wired. The connector on the machine has 4 pins, protective ground, TxD, RxD, signal ground. I took a spare serial cabe and cut off the DE9 socket, revealing 3 wires, Buzzing out the DE9 conenctions told me whtat they were, and I wired the cable that connects ot the 95LX to a DB25 as a _DTE_ (I think I strapped 4-5 and 6-8-20 too) So now I cna plug it into a DCE-wired port. -tony From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Aug 24 14:34:29 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:34:29 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> On 8/23/2011 11:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Sure. But knowing about their treachery doesn't make it honorable. > > -Dave It's despicable. It is exactly because of these fan forums and sites that Atari even has any fans in 2011. And to slap the hand of the people who make your brand viable takes balls and effrontery that is unmatched. If that was my site, it would only be coming down after a ruling from a judge with jurisdiction over me. What asshats. Keith From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 14:43:46 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:43:46 -0500 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> Message-ID: if they didn't do this they loose their copyright though On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Keith M wrote: > On 8/23/2011 11:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> >> Sure. But knowing about their treachery doesn't make it honorable. >> >> -Dave >> > > It's despicable. It is exactly because of these fan forums and sites that > Atari even has any fans in 2011. And to slap the hand of the people who make > your brand viable takes balls and effrontery that is unmatched. > > If that was my site, it would only be coming down after a ruling from a > judge with jurisdiction over me. > > What asshats. > > Keith > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 24 14:55:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:55:24 -0700 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: , <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <4E54F4BC.29204.EBC58B@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2011 at 14:43, Adrian Stoness wrote: > if they didn't do this they loose their copyright though On what basis do you claim this? Got a cite in law? --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 24 14:58:39 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > if they didn't do this they loose their copyright though > Good god. Look, it's a TRADEMARK. atari2600.org was registered over 10 years ago. Because they didn't do anything about it then, they can't do anything about it now. If the poor guy can afford to fight it, he will win. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoppel This fits under both Estoppel by silence and Laches. I just wish I was a lawyer so I could help the guy for free. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 24 15:06:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 16:06:19 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2011 03:43 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > if they didn't do this they loose their copyright though Even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, it's still pointless. Their stuff left the realm of commercial relevancy over twenty years ago. It is only of historic and nostalgic interest now. Those suits going after this is just a desperate grab for (nonexistant) money. It reeks of suitly sleaziness and a whole lot of cluelessness, aside from being assholes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 24 15:51:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 16:51:26 -0400 Subject: Looking for Sun Ultra5 RAM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E55644E.50704@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2011 11:04 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > Don't suppose anyone has any U5 RAM they'd be willing to sell me? > > Getting a "Memory Address not Aligned" on my Ultra5. Hoping it's just the > RAM and not something else. That doesn't sound like bad ram to me, it sounds like a corrupt executable. (or bootblock, if this is happening during booting) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 24 18:05:36 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 16:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110823151931.C58560@shell.lmi.net> > > Would you like a few "RS232 Smart Cable"s? On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I've always been curious as to exactly what these contain, and what th > eswtiches set. Any clues? I think the contents would be disappointing, and prob'ly not worth breaking them open. They are glued. I could prob'ly cut the glue joint and pry one open, but it would be much more fun to use a LARGE mallet ot open it. I have two here. Most here could design something as good in as long as it takes my to type this, and I'm sure that Tony could build one faster than that. The first one is model SC817. It has three red LEDs (labelled M, T, and D) and one slide switch (unmarked). The other one is model SC817. (just so we know which one is which) It has 5 LEDs and two switches. The first 3 LEDs and switch are the same as on model SC817. But, on this one (model SC817), there are two more LEDs and a 3 throw slide switch. > > They obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human > > being with an LED tester and a breakout box. > I think it's always the case that a clueful person armed with test gear > will beat a simple 'automatic' device... A much better and slightly less offensive wording. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:32:54 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 01:32:54 +0200 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology Message-ID: An interesting article : http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/what-your-old-graphing-calculator-says-about-technology/244028/#slide12 -- Stephane http://kiva.org/invitedto/kathleen/by/stephanefr From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 24 18:41:40 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 16:41:40 -0700 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> On 8/24/11 4:32 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > An interesting article : > http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/what-your-old-graphing-calculator-says-about-technology/244028/#slide12 > The reason it hasn't changed is all high school textbooks are written expecting that exact calculator to be used. HP totally dropped the ball there. and 1999 seems pretty late for pagers. Even I had a cellular phone by then. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 18:46:15 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:46:15 -0500 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: indeed and they still cost exactly the same amount of money........................ On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 6:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/24/11 4:32 PM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > >> An interesting article : >> http://www.theatlantic.com/**technology/archive/2011/08/** >> what-your-old-graphing-**calculator-says-about-** >> technology/244028/#slide12 >> >> > The reason it hasn't changed is all high school textbooks are written > expecting > that exact calculator to be used. > > HP totally dropped the ball there. > > and 1999 seems pretty late for pagers. Even I had a cellular phone by then. > > > From brain at jbrain.com Wed Aug 24 18:48:28 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 18:48:28 -0500 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E558DCC.90603@jbrain.com> On 8/24/2011 3:06 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/24/2011 03:43 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> if they didn't do this they loose their copyright though > > Even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, it's still > pointless. Their stuff left the realm of commercial relevancy over > twenty years ago. It is only of historic and nostalgic interest now. > Those suits going after this is just a desperate grab for > (nonexistant) money. It reeks of suitly sleaziness and a whole lot of > cluelessness, aside from being assholes. > > -Dave > I'm not saying that I agree with their tone and methods, but there are legitimate reasons (that you would appreciate) for doing things like this. If they fail to show vigorous defense of the name, they open the door for other firms to use the name for monetary gain for products of dubious value without hope of winning a suit against them. Yes, Atari could (and would) file a suit against the firms, but they do so in a significantly weakened position. Thus, even though they risk alienating their core customers, these letters form a paper trail that show the court a vigorous defense. My point: If you don't want some dodgy company to make a crappy product and trick buyers into thinking it's an Atari item, consider your position on these C&Ds carefully. I see it not as a "desperate grab for money" as much as a "ensuring no one else tries to make a quick grab fr cash using the name". Again, I see this as a "robot" email, and it did not take into account the particulars of the site. As well, vigorously defending your name does not have to mean sending out nasty letters like this. Finally, ignoring it is not a good idea. Retaining an attorney, expensive though it might be, to draft a competent letter demanding to know the details of the infringement (written in proper legalese, as someone else suggested) will quickly deal with this issue. No, IANAL, but I have done the research, since I use the Commodore name in certain product listings and such. If this sort of thing becomes more prevalent (which it might), enthusiasts might need to form "associations" that can handle protecting or dealing with these things. The links would be on a association's site (portal), etc. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 24 19:54:24 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 17:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110824175403.U12244@shell.lmi.net> . . . and NO, it is not "abandonware"! From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Aug 24 22:03:53 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:03:53 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E558DCC.90603@jbrain.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> <4E558DCC.90603@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> Hi Jim! Responses in-line. On 8/24/2011 7:48 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > My point: If you don't want some dodgy > company to make a crappy product and trick buyers into thinking it's an > Atari item, consider your position on these C&Ds carefully. I see it > not as a "desperate grab for money" as much as a "ensuring no one else > tries to make a quick grab fr cash using the name". > > Again, I see this as a "robot" email, and it did not take into account > the particulars of the site. As well, vigorously defending your name > does not have to mean sending out nasty letters like this. I guess that's why I think they need to distinguish between the sites, and handle them accordingly. You don't treat a commercial for-profit organization who is trying to pass off consumer ready equipment as true-blue new Atari equipment the same as a hobbyist who like to write his own software and run it on retro hardware. This doesn't take hours of professional analysis to figure this out. I can look at a website and tell you within about two minutes the motivation and purpose of a site. If it's a commercial venture, C&D them as much as you want. My problem is the whole collateral damage thing. Atari doesn't seem to give a shit that they are in the process of destroying a community of their fans that took years to build. Perfectly legal resources are disappearing daily now because of the threats. Certain emulators aren't being distributed any more. The stifling of legal research, hardware development, software development, and first amendment protected communication is disgusting. The fact that it's lazy lawyering, like others mentioned, doesn't excuse the behavior. > If this sort of thing becomes more prevalent (which it might), > enthusiasts might need to form "associations" that can handle protecting > or dealing with these things. The links would be on a association's > site (portal), etc. It's a shame that this even needs done. It feels like extortion. If a site were to actually be sued, I would (like to) think that the EFF would step up and defend them. They've represented people on much weaker legal ground. Keith From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 22:20:18 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:20:18 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: No mention whatsoever of HP? I graduated high school with a bunch of kids who had 48's, and that was only a few years after they came out. It was fun to watch teachers try to figure them out (except for a math teacher with the masters in CS - he used a 16C of course.) Also, Sharp and Casio make relatively popular graphing calculators. Casio has had a color graphing model for several years now. I think calculators are like remote controls. You can make them lighter and somewhat smaller, maybe add some nifty features, but ultimately they need to be a certain size, have a certain layout, and perform some basic functions to be usable. Besides, if you want to see real technological stagnation, just look at desktop calculators. I think Sharp has been selling the same printing calculator with the same green LED readout for nearly 20 years. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 22:25:38 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:25:38 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Besides, if you want to see real technological stagnation, just look at > desktop calculators. I think Sharp has been selling the same printing > calculator with the same green LED readout for nearly 20 years. That is what we call a "successful product". -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 24 22:35:13 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:35:13 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E55C2F1.8000308@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2011 11:25 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Besides, if you want to see real technological stagnation, just look at >> desktop calculators. I think Sharp has been selling the same printing >> calculator with the same green LED readout for nearly 20 years. > > That is what we call a "successful product". Actually it's more a matter of "successfully identifying a low-expectation market". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 24 22:38:28 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:38:28 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:25 PM Subject: Re: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology >> Besides, if you want to see real technological stagnation, just look at >> desktop calculators. I think Sharp has been selling the same printing >> calculator with the same green LED readout for nearly 20 years. > > That is what we call a "successful product". > > -- > Will Or somebody put too many zeros on the production run order and they still haven't sold them all. Who uses a printing calculator these days? I still have a few Casio scientifics I got during the late 1980's and a Tandy PC-6 in perfect operating condition I got for college around 1990 or so. Haven't purchased or needed a new calculator since then (they all still work). From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 24 22:55:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:55:12 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E55C7A0.6080202@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2011 11:38 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Or somebody put too many zeros on the production run order and they > still haven't sold them all. Who uses a printing calculator these days? I see them in offices everywhere. Not offices of people like us, but they are everywhere. There were no less than three in the truck rental place I visited yesterday. It's pretty scary, actually. I mean, I love my HP calcs (my everyday machines are a -41CX, a -28S, and a -48SX) but honestly most of the time I just type "bc" in whatever terminal window I happen to be working in. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Aug 24 22:58:57 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:58:57 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> Message-ID: > Who uses a printing calculator these days? Accountants. Damn near all of them. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 24 23:23:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:23:53 -0700 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: , <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300>, Message-ID: <4E556BE9.26848.2BD4CD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Aug 2011 at 23:58, William Donzelli wrote: > > Who uses a printing calculator these days? > > Accountants. Damn near all of them. Bookkeepers too. My wife has one on her desk, as well as an HP12C, which based on longevity (30 years) makes the TI-83 a fuzzy-cheeked adolescent. I own two calculators--an HP16C and a no-name solar-powered 4-banger. I manage just fine, thank you. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 24 23:47:33 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 00:47:33 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> Message-ID: <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:58 PM Subject: Re: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology >> Who uses a printing calculator these days? > > Accountants. Damn near all of them. > > -- > Will Odd, I figured they all had spreadsheets for that stuff, must be they need a paper record of their calcs and those printing calc rolls are easy to stuff into record folders? Back in college some of the MBA types had financial calculators to figure out interest and how much to overcharge people. These days kids seem to be required to have graphing calculators in grade school, I guess that is because they can barely print their own names let alone draw on paper. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 00:55:54 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 00:55:54 -0500 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> Message-ID: inless u take precal u are not taught to do it in ur own head........... anyhow my dads got an old canon calculator hes used since the 80's been droped left out in -40 used in that temp left on dash's ect ect ect still going strong. also got some texas insturments one with pile of software and manuals should fire it up one of these days On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 11:47 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:58 PM > > Subject: Re: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology > > > Who uses a printing calculator these days? >>> >> >> Accountants. Damn near all of them. >> >> -- >> Will >> > > Odd, I figured they all had spreadsheets for that stuff, must be they need > a paper record of their calcs and those printing calc rolls are easy to > stuff into record folders? > > Back in college some of the MBA types had financial calculators to figure > out interest and how much to overcharge people. These days kids seem to be > required to have graphing calculators in grade school, I guess that is > because they can barely print their own names let alone draw on paper. > > > From oldcpu3 at rogerwilco.org Thu Aug 25 01:01:58 2011 From: oldcpu3 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 00:01:58 -0600 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer Message-ID: <4E55E556.5030207@rogerwilco.org> From today's (August 24) Wall Street Journal front page: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html?mod=WSJ_Ahed_AutomatedTypes Written as a bit of a puff piece, but interesting nonetheless, given the national reach of the WSJ. It might (though I doubt it) spur a few Wall Street types to take a keener interest in retro gear, making things dearer and harder for us homie hobbyists to acquire. :) Kudo's to Ian (King) and Rich (Alderson), et al. -- Jared From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 25 01:02:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:02:32 -0700 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> References: , <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E558308.24339.3179CB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Aug 2011 at 0:47, TeoZ wrote: > Back in college some of the MBA types had financial calculators to > figure out interest and how much to overcharge people. These days kids > seem to be required to have graphing calculators in grade school, I > guess that is because they can barely print their own names let alone > draw on paper. A CFA is very likely to have a HP12C somewhere. From Wikipedia: "The HP-12C is one of only four calculators permissible in the Chartered Financial Analyst exams, the others being its sister, the HP-12C Platinum, and the Texas Instruments BA II Plus and BA II Plus Professional." The current price of a new HP12C Platinum is about $75, although the TI BAII Plus Pro is about half that. The TI BAII dates back to 1978. Neither is a graphing calculator. --Chuck From jblaser at sisna.com Thu Aug 25 00:39:51 2011 From: jblaser at sisna.com (J Blaser <) Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 23:39:51 -0600 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer Message-ID: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> From today's (August 24) Wall Street Journal front page: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html?mod=WSJ_Ahed_AutomatedTypes Written as a bit of a puff piece, but interesting nonetheless, given the national reach of the WSJ. It might (though I doubt it) spur a few Wall Street types to take a keener interest in retro gear, making things dearer and harder for us homie hobbyists to acquire. :) Kudo's to Ian (King) and Rich (Alderson), et al. -- Jared From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 25 01:48:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 02:48:30 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E55F03E.5070808@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2011 12:47 AM, TeoZ wrote: >>> Who uses a printing calculator these days? >> >> Accountants. Damn near all of them. > > Odd, I figured they all had spreadsheets for that stuff, must be they > need a paper record of their calcs and those printing calc rolls are > easy to stuff into record folders? Sometimes (heck, ALL the time) they just need to add up a column of numbers. A spreadsheet is pretty clumsy for that. I have a good friend who is an accountant. I've seen her do this many times, then refer back to the printed tape on occasion during the course of a job. And she's a very "high-tech" accountant, too. Those tools do still have legitimate places. > Back in college some of the MBA types had financial calculators to > figure out interest and how much to overcharge people. These days kids > seem to be required to have graphing calculators in grade school, I > guess that is because they can barely print their own names let alone > draw on paper. Too true. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 25 01:54:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 02:54:15 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E558DCC.90603@jbrain.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> <4E558DCC.90603@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4E55F197.5090408@neurotica.com> On 08/24/2011 07:48 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>> if they didn't do this they loose their copyright though >> >> Even if that were true, and I'm not sure it is, it's still pointless. >> Their stuff left the realm of commercial relevancy over twenty years >> ago. It is only of historic and nostalgic interest now. Those suits >> going after this is just a desperate grab for (nonexistant) money. It >> reeks of suitly sleaziness and a whole lot of cluelessness, aside from >> being assholes. > > I'm not saying that I agree with their tone and methods, but there are > legitimate reasons (that you would appreciate) for doing things like this. > > If they fail to show vigorous defense of the name, they open the door > for other firms to use the name for monetary gain for products of > dubious value without hope of winning a suit against them. Yes, Atari > could (and would) file a suit against the firms, but they do so in a > significantly weakened position. Thus, even though they risk alienating > their core customers, these letters form a paper trail that show the > court a vigorous defense. My point: If you don't want some dodgy company > to make a crappy product and trick buyers into thinking it's an Atari > item, consider your position on these C&Ds carefully. I see it not as a > "desperate grab for money" as much as a "ensuring no one else tries to > make a quick grab fr cash using the name". I must begrudgingly admit that this makes a great deal of sense. It's a real shame that our society and our legal system is so utterly screwed up that this kind of thing happens. > If this sort of thing becomes more prevalent (which it might), > enthusiasts might need to form "associations" that can handle protecting > or dealing with these things. The links would be on a association's site > (portal), etc. I think this is a really good idea. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 25 02:15:41 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:15:41 +0200 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4E55E556.5030207@rogerwilco.org> References: <4E55E556.5030207@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <20110825071541.GA14523@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 12:01:58AM -0600, J Blaser wrote: > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html?mod=WSJ_Ahed_AutomatedTypes A great read! Thanks for sharing. Cheers, Pontus. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 25 03:32:02 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 01:32:02 -0700 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Aug 24, at 10:39 PM, J Blaser < wrote: > From today's (August 24) Wall Street Journal front page: > > http://online.wsj.com/article/ > SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html? > mod=WSJ_Ahed_AutomatedTypes > > Written as a bit of a puff piece, but interesting nonetheless, given > the national reach of the WSJ. It might (though I doubt it) spur a > few Wall Street types to take a keener interest in retro gear, making > things dearer and harder for us homie hobbyists to acquire. :) > > Kudo's to Ian (King) and Rich (Alderson), et al. Gee, they went looking for a 7094 but only found a 7090, how dejecting is that. Seriously though, I do understand if the museum has a particular mandate or focus. Still, most of us wouldn't be sniffing at the opportunity of a 7090, not that many of us could accommodate it. What happened to the 7090 or is it's future known? (.. nice job to have) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 25 03:41:33 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 01:41:33 -0700 Subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the (few) 7030s (STRETCH) have survived ..? From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Aug 25 04:11:36 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:11:36 +0200 Subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20110825091136.GD14523@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 01:41:33AM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote: > In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the (few) 7030s (STRETCH) > have survived ..? > The Mus?e des arts et m?tiers at least has parts of one: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vokabre/5703077167/ and CHM too i think: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/306326271/ /P From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 25 04:22:13 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 03:22:13 -0600 Subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the (few) 7030s (STRETCH) have survived ..? I suppose it depends on what you mean by "survived". Certainly there are none that are operational, or even that could theoretically be made operational without fabricating a lot of replacement equipment. CHM has most of the Livermore machine, which unfortunately is missing the core memory, disk, and the original console typewriter. When the machine was auctioned, one person bid on it to try to preserve the system, but others bid on the core memory and the console typewriter. Apparently the person that bid on the typewriter really only wanted a Selectric typewriter, and didn't need the special one used for the 7030. CHM is displaying the 7030 programmer's console with a normal Selectric. (There were probably less than a dozen of the Selectric model for the 7030 manufactured.) CHM also has a portion of the one that was originally at MITRE then spent time at BYU. Reportedly a professor at BYU saw it on a government auction listing, bid on it without having a clue how massive the system was, and sent some students with a pickup truck to fetch it. Somehow it was arranged for IBM to pay to have it professionally moved to BYU, and to get it working again there. (Installing a 7030 and getting it operational was a herculean feat.) BYU also acquired the Los Alamos 7030 as a source of spare parts, so it is possible that some of the Stretch hardware at CHM might have come from that machine. When BYU decommissioned the system, they carefully deinstalled it by chopping all of the cables. (This is typical of how large computer systems get deinstalled.) There's a sad story about the fate of the one-of-a-kind HARVEST system (7950) that IBM built for the NSA. Harvest coupled a 7030 with a 7951 stream coprocessor, special two-hole-per-core high-speed core memory (7952), a 7955 "Tractor" robotic tape system, and a 7959 high-speed exchange (I/O channel controller). When the NSA decommissioned it in 1976, they wanted to give it to IBM for their historical collection. However, being government property, it had to be put up for auction. IBM's historian bid $20,050 for it, more than a year's worth of his budget, and won it. Unfortunately not too many years later someone else at IBM decided that they didn't want to store it any longer. I have never been able to find any details of the ultimate disposition of the other six 7030 systems. Very little software for the 7030 still exists. The Computer History Museum has printed listings of some software, and Al has scanned some (or perhaps all) of it. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 25 05:59:44 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 03:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum Message-ID: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html From rickb at bensene.com Thu Aug 25 07:19:30 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 05:19:30 -0700 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Gee, they went looking for a 7094 but only found a 7090, how dejecting > is that. > > Seriously though, I do understand if the museum has a particular > mandate or focus. The quest for a 7094 comes from the fact that it was the first machine that IBM sold that could support a true timesharing computing environment. Mr. Allen's focus is on historical timeshare computing environments, because that's where he and Gates cut their teeth learning about programming and operating systems. While the 7090 was cool, it didn't have the hardware capabilities needed to do timesharing. I sure hope *someone* rescue[ds] that 7090. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 08:10:25 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:10:25 -0400 Subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Apparently the person > that bid on the typewriter really only wanted a Selectric typewriter, and > didn't need the special one used for the 7030. CHM is displaying the 7030 > programmer's console with a normal Selectric. (There were probably less than > a dozen of the Selectric model for the 7030 manufactured.) Can you provide *specific* information on what makes the 7030 Selectric console unique? I am going back to the pile at Los Alamos soon, and he has a *lot* of Selectrics kicking around. I suppose there is a sliver of a chance he may have one. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 08:56:29 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 09:56:29 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> Message-ID: > Odd, I figured they all had spreadsheets for that stuff, must be they need a > paper record of their calcs and those printing calc rolls are easy to stuff > into record folders? Printing calculators are very handy for tallying expenses. -- Will From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 09:01:39 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:01:39 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <4E55F03E.5070808@neurotica.com> References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> <4E55F03E.5070808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:48 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I have a good friend who is an accountant. I've seen her do this many > times, then refer back to the printed tape on occasion during the course of > a job. And she's a very "high-tech" accountant, too. > > Those tools do still have legitimate places. > Most of the people I know who own or run their own business and use outside accounting all use printing calculators. They tally up their number and throw the receipts the accountant wants into an envelope along with the printout of their calculations. Even though it's all computerized, I think if something goes wrong it's much faster for the accountant to just check the tape instead of going through all of the receipts they need to check. My dad ran his own business and was a total calculator geek. In the early 80's he had a rechargeable desktop that had a thermal printer and a weird rubberized keypad - not membrane but a single rubber sheet over mechanical switches. I think it was to make it "ruggedized" but it was more modern looking than rugged - it was orange-ish yellow to boot. He also had an incredibly cool Sharp plotting calculator that I'm lucky enough to still have. Damn hard to find new pens for it, though. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 09:03:23 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:03:23 -0400 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Has anyone been to the Living Computer Museum? I'm going to Seattle in a few weeks, and my significant other is geek-inclined... From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Aug 25 12:27:10 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:27:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Can anyone ID this machine? Message-ID: A coworker of mine showed me this link. Whatever it is looks pretty sweet, but I don't think I've ever seen a similar machine. Anyone know what it is? Is it even a computer, or some sort of teletype switching office? http://i.imgur.com/tDA3X.jpg Alexey From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 12:56:43 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:56:43 -0400 Subject: Can anyone ID this machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The aesthetic looks eastern-bloc. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 25 13:32:37 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:32:37 -0700 Subject: Can anyone ID this machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15e47a0ad9d95c772d952f7035d564b1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Aug 25, at 10:27 AM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > A coworker of mine showed me this link. Whatever it is looks pretty > sweet, but I don't think I've ever seen a similar machine. Anyone know > what it is? Is it even a computer, or some sort of teletype switching > office? > > http://i.imgur.com/tDA3X.jpg A little guessing and searching on the "????AC" name in the booklet in the first photo (I thought it was just an EIMAC tube manual at first until I noticed there were 6 characters, not 5) turned up this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSIRAC The track lighting on the ceiling kind of breaks the period consistency, otherwise a lovely display. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 25 13:25:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:25:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: from "Jason McBrien" at Aug 24, 11 11:20:18 pm Message-ID: > > No mention whatsoever of HP? I graduated high school with a bunch of kids > who had 48's, and that was only a few years after they came out. It was fun > to watch teachers try to figure them out (except for a math teacher with the > masters in CS - he used a 16C of course.) This reminds me of a true story that happened when I was studying at Bristol. A member of stafff walked into the lab where I was working nd asked 'Does anyone have a calculator?;. Without thinking I puleld my HP48SX out of my pocket and handed it to him. His reply was priceless : 'At last. I've been all over this building looking for a calculator I can acutall use.' ;-). I then ended upwit hthe job of repairing his calculator (an old HP45 with battery and on/off switch problems that did not take long to put right). > > Also, Sharp and Casio make relatively popular graphing calculators. Casio > has had a color graphing model for several years now. My objection to Casio machines (other htan they're not RPN, of course) is that they are very 'modal'. There's a complex number mode, a matrix mode, and so on. Probably ideal for schools ('Today we're going to be doing matrices'), absolutley useless in the real world where you ogtne need ot use matricies, complex numbers, etrc, in the same problem. > desktop calculators. I think Sharp has been selling the same printing > calculator with the same green LED readout for nearly 20 years. I believe the HP12C financial calculator has been sold (admitedly with updates, but no real change that the user would see) for 30 years now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 25 13:29:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:29:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <4E55C7A0.6080202@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 24, 11 11:55:12 pm Message-ID: > It's pretty scary, actually. I mean, I love my HP calcs (my everyday > machines are a -41CX, a -28S, and a -48SX) but honestly most of the time > I just type "bc" in whatever terminal window I happen to be working in. Erm, have you tried balancing even a laptop on a lathe bed? Many times I need to claculate angles, amount of metal to remove, etc and an HP calculator is a lot more usable than a PC... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 25 13:30:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:30:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> from "J Blaser" at Aug 24, 11 11:39:51 pm Message-ID: The obvious asnwer to the subject: line is 'Dr ARD' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 25 13:15:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:15:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <20110823151931.C58560@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 24, 11 04:05:36 pm Message-ID: > > > > Would you like a few "RS232 Smart Cable"s? > On Tue, 23 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've always been curious as to exactly what these contain, and what th > > eswtiches set. Any clues? > > I think the contents would be disappointing, and prob'ly not worth > breaking them open. They are glued. I could prob'ly cut the glue joint > and pry one open, but it would be much more fun to use a LARGE mallet ot > open it. I preer to open things up in the least destructive way possible. Often the reason for opening some is at least to investigate the internals, if not repair them, so the less damage done the batter. Hitting it with a mallet/hammer could break an intenral PCB (if there is one) making tracing tracks a lot harder... > > I have two here. > Most here could design something as good in as long as it takes my to type > this, and I'm sure that Tony could build one faster than that. Oh,. I probably coudl :-). I am always curious to see what others have designed, though... Only be sure to call it, please, 'Research' :-) > > The first one is model SC817. It has three red LEDs (labelled M, T, and > D) and one slide switch (unmarked). > > The other one is model SC817. (just so we know which one is which) > It has 5 LEDs and two switches. The first 3 LEDs and switch are the same > as on model SC817. But, on this one (model SC817), there are two more > LEDs and a 3 throw slide switch. > > > > They obviously do not work anywhere near as well as a conscious human > > > being with an LED tester and a breakout box. > > I think it's always the case that a clueful person armed with test gear > > will beat a simple 'automatic' device... > > A much better and slightly less offensive wording. I hae an intense dislike of 'automatic' ssytems, particularly if you can't override them . I've suffered with software installation programs that isisnte that drive G: (on an MS-DOS PC) can't possibly be a floppy drive (hint : think of loadable device drivers...). And with automatic-exposure cameras that won't let me set the exposure I want to get the result I want. No, I want a devie that does what I want it to do, and I'll take the consequences. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 25 13:19:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:19:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: from "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=" at Aug 25, 11 01:32:54 am Message-ID: > > An interesting article : > http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/what-your-old-graphing-calculator-says-about-technology/244028/#slide12 My _old_ graphing calcualtor is an HP9100B with an HP9125A plotter. Still works fine, although I did have to reqwind both motors in the plotter and do some minor electronic repairs to both untis. My moder modern graphing calcualtors include an HP28C, HP48SX, HP48GX and HP49G. I've not used the 28C fro some time, but I use at least one of the otehrs almost every day (admittedly not necessarily for graphing a function). Actuially, I am saddened that the above article doens't metnion HP machines at all. Once you've learnt RPN, you newver want to go back :-) -tony From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Aug 25 13:57:57 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:57:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Can anyone ID this machine? In-Reply-To: <15e47a0ad9d95c772d952f7035d564b1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <15e47a0ad9d95c772d952f7035d564b1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 Aug 25, at 10:27 AM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> >> A coworker of mine showed me this link. Whatever it is looks pretty sweet, >> but I don't think I've ever seen a similar machine. Anyone know what it is? >> Is it even a computer, or some sort of teletype switching office? >> >> http://i.imgur.com/tDA3X.jpg > > A little guessing and searching on the "????AC" name in the booklet in the > first photo (I thought it was just an EIMAC tube manual at first until I > noticed there were 6 characters, not 5) turned up this: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSIRAC > > The track lighting on the ceiling kind of breaks the period consistency, > otherwise a lovely display. Thanks! I could see that it ended in -AC but none of my guesses for the first 4 letters came up with anything useful. Alexey From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 25 15:07:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:07:39 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E56AB8B.6070100@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2011 02:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> It's pretty scary, actually. I mean, I love my HP calcs (my everyday >> machines are a -41CX, a -28S, and a -48SX) but honestly most of the time >> I just type "bc" in whatever terminal window I happen to be working in. > > Erm, have you tried balancing even a laptop on a lathe bed? Many times I > need to claculate angles, amount of metal to remove, etc and an HP > calculator is a lot more usable than a PC... Ah yes, but most of my work involves sitting at a desk in front of a computer. When I work at the bench, I always have an HP-41 handy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 25 15:10:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:10:07 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: <4E558C34.9070301@bitsavers.org> <95B2096C17E246F9882AEEFDED2731A8@dell8300> <328CA0C1AC064F63850780160EAA504A@dell8300> <4E55F03E.5070808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E56AC1F.6030508@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2011 10:01 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > My dad ran his own business and was a total calculator geek. ... > He also had an incredibly cool Sharp plotting calculator that I'm lucky > enough to still have. Damn hard to find new pens for it, though. Oh wow, that one sounds like fun! What model is it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 15:12:13 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:12:13 -0400 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E56AC9D.2070903@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The obvious asnwer to the subject: line is 'Dr ARD' :-) I refuse to believe that you're that... *ahem*... DENSE. :) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 15:20:39 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:20:39 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E56AE97.7050808@gmail.com> Gene Buckle wrote: >>> http://atariuser.blogspot.com/2011/08/atari-continues-efforts-to-alienat >>> e-and.html >> >> I smell suits! > > Overlaid with the unmistakable stench of MBA. With a fecesesque underlying aroma of asshat. Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Aug 25 15:35:55 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 13:35:55 -0700 Subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <3718bc9eb07f4d655c0d6981d647ce1a@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Aug 25, at 2:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the (few) 7030s (STRETCH) > have survived ..? > > I suppose it depends on what you mean by "survived". Certainly there > are none that are operational, or even that could theoretically be > made operational without fabricating a lot of replacement equipment. > > CHM has most of the Livermore machine, which unfortunately is missing > the core memory, disk, and the original console typewriter. When the > machine was auctioned, one person bid on it to try to preserve the > system, but others bid on the core memory and the console typewriter. > Apparently the person that bid on the typewriter really only wanted a > Selectric typewriter, and didn't need the special one used for the > 7030. CHM is displaying the 7030 programmer's console with a normal > Selectric. (There were probably less than a dozen of the Selectric > model for the 7030 manufactured.) > CHM also has a portion of the one that was originally at MITRE then > spent time at BYU. Reportedly a professor at BYU saw it on a > government auction listing, bid on it without having a clue how > massive the system was, and sent some students with a pickup truck to > fetch it. Somehow it was arranged for IBM to pay to have it > professionally moved to BYU, and to get it working again there. > (Installing a 7030 and getting it operational was a herculean feat.) > BYU also acquired the Los Alamos 7030 as a source of spare parts, so > it is possible that some of the Stretch hardware at CHM might have > come from that machine. When BYU decommissioned the system, they > carefully deinstalled it by chopping all of the cables. (This is > typical of how large computer systems get deinstalled.) > > There's a sad story about the fate of the one-of-a-kind HARVEST system > (7950) that IBM built for the NSA. Harvest coupled a 7030 with a 7951 > stream coprocessor, special two-hole-per-core high-speed core memory > (7952), a 7955 "Tractor" robotic tape system, and a 7959 high-speed > exchange (I/O channel controller). When the NSA decommissioned it in > 1976, they wanted to give it to IBM for their historical collection. > However, being government property, it had to be put up for auction. > IBM's historian bid $20,050 for it, more than a year's worth of his > budget, and won it. Unfortunately not too many years later someone > else at IBM decided that they didn't want to store it any longer. > > I have never been able to find any details of the ultimate disposition > of the other six 7030 systems. > > Very little software for the 7030 still exists. The Computer History > Museum has printed listings of some software, and Al has scanned some > (or perhaps all) of it. Sad stories there, a lot of close-but-not-quite, but there are more bits remaining than I thought there were. I wonder where the one in the French museum (other reply) was used. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 25 15:36:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:36:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <4E56AB8B.6070100@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 25, 11 04:07:39 pm Message-ID: > > On 08/25/2011 02:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> It's pretty scary, actually. I mean, I love my HP calcs (my everyday > >> machines are a -41CX, a -28S, and a -48SX) but honestly most of the time > >> I just type "bc" in whatever terminal window I happen to be working in. > > > > Erm, have you tried balancing even a laptop on a lathe bed? Many times I > > need to claculate angles, amount of metal to remove, etc and an HP > > calculator is a lot more usable than a PC... > > Ah yes, but most of my work involves sitting at a desk in front of a And of coure much of mine involves a soldering iron, logic analyser, lathe and hacksaw ;-) > computer. When I work at the bench, I always have an HP-41 handy. Ah right. I keep my 16C on my electronics bench, and generally use the 49G when I am doing metal-bashing. I like the 41 series (I have forgotton just how many I own, the only one I don't have is a halfnut 41C [1], I do have a 'bug 1' for example), but really as a small computer rather than a calcualtor. And althohgh I have the Extended I/O module nad the DevIL [2] module, I find the HP71 is a more useable HPIL controlelr (and with the HPIB interface converter, the HP71 is a great tool for testing HPIB devices). [1] Halfnut means it has the later construction with evrythign on one board and the memory as part of the display driver hybrid. This construction was introduced after the 41C was discontinued (it was as cheap to procue the 41CV with 5 times the memory, apparently), so the only halfnut 41Cs that exist were service replacements. I find it curious that they exist at all Sinec to make this machine, there was a different display hybrid cirucit (it's not just a different link setting to disable the extra memory), they mucst have been fairly expensive to produce. I would have thought it would have been cheaper to use 41Cfs as service replacements ofr unrepairable 41Cs. [2] The HPIL Development ROM module, of course. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 25 15:41:23 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 22:41:23 +0200 Subject: Looking for Sun Ultra5 RAM In-Reply-To: <4E55644E.50704@neurotica.com> References: <4E55644E.50704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110825224123.78ba8e3b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 16:51:26 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > > Getting a "Memory Address not Aligned" on my Ultra5. Hoping it's just the > > RAM and not something else. > That doesn't sound like bad ram to me, it sounds like a corrupt > executable. (or bootblock, if this is happening during booting) Seconded. Typical software problem. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 15:41:28 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:41:28 -0400 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E56B378.7090902@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Still, most of us wouldn't be sniffing at the opportunity of a 7090, not > that many of us could accommodate it. I could... and would. The machine I really want, though, is the 3090, even though it's newer. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 25 15:40:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:40:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <4E56AC1F.6030508@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 25, 11 04:10:07 pm Message-ID: > > On 08/25/2011 10:01 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > > My dad ran his own business and was a total calculator geek. > ... > > He also had an incredibly cool Sharp plotting calculator that I'm lucky > > enough to still have. Damn hard to find new pens for it, though. > > Oh wow, that one sounds like fun! What model is it? I have an Shapr PC1500 which meets this description. The machine is a reasonalbe pocket computer, it fits into a cradle containing a cassette interace and one of those Alps 4-pen plottre mechanisms. Unfortunately, as wityh many such plotters, the motor pinion gears have split with time, so it's not useable at the momnet, I should have a go at cutting soem replacements... I also have the RS232 interface for it. Actaully, thete were 2 versions of this. The Sharp one (CE158 IIRC) had both am RS232 and a Centronics interfce. The Radio Shack one (sold for their PC2 machine) only has the RS232 inteerface, the buffer bord (a couple of '04s IIRC) and the conenctor for the Centronics interface are not fitted. The ROM is the same, the commands ot access the Cnetronics interface are there but not documented IIRC> Anyway, I have one of each type. In the spare space in the Radio Shack one I fitted a bit of stripboard containing an ADC0804 ADC chip and a 4-channel analoguemux wired to a DA15 socket, and conencted to the pins on the I/O controller chip that would have been used for the Centronics interface. The result is a combined 8-bit 4 channel ADC and RS232 interface. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 25 16:06:39 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 14:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110825135416.L44991@shell.lmi.net> > > I think the contents would be disappointing, and prob'ly not worth > > breaking them open. They are glued. I could prob'ly cut the glue joint > > and pry one open, but it would be much more fun to use a LARGE mallet ot > > open it. On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I preFer to open things up in the least destructive way possible. Often That depends on the thing, and whether re-assembly is to be considered. Unlike ARD, some of us sometimes feel that the greatest value that some things have may be as a recipient of mindless brutal violence. (even though neither SC817 bears any resemblance to a college administrator) > the reason for opening some is at least to investigate the internals, if > not repair them, so the less damage done the batter. Hitting it with a > mallet/hammer could break an intenral PCB (if there is one) making > tracing tracks a lot harder... Well, the largest mallet that I have handy is only 4 pounds, so I'm going to mail it to Poughkeepsie, instead. THAT might subject it to enough impact(s) to open it. If not, then somebody else can maturely and carefully unseal it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Aug 25 16:09:37 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 23:09:37 +0200 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: <4E55C7A0.6080202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110825230937.797eea0d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:29:02 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Erm, have you tried balancing even a laptop on a lathe bed? Many times I > need to claculate angles, amount of metal to remove, etc and an HP > calculator is a lot more usable than a PC... \begin{trol} That's the time where I pull out my Android smart phone and start the HP48 emulator App... ;-) \end{trol} p.s. That HP48 emulator for Android is no joke. p.p.s. Yes, I really use that emulator. p.p.p.s. Yes, I prefere real hardware. Therefor I have a HP48SX on my desk at home, a HP41CV on my desk at work and a HP33 in the kitchen / work shop / dark room. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 25 16:28:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:28:00 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <20110825230937.797eea0d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4E55C7A0.6080202@neurotica.com> <20110825230937.797eea0d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E56BE60.9000602@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2011 05:09 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > \begin{trol} > That's the time where I pull out my Android smart phone and start the > HP48 emulator App... ;-) > \end{trol} > > p.s. That HP48 emulator for Android is no joke. > p.p.s. Yes, I really use that emulator. > p.p.p.s. Yes, I prefere real hardware. Therefor I have a HP48SX on my > desk at home, a HP41CV on my desk at work and a HP33 in the kitchen / > work shop / dark room. I'm right there with you. I have an iPhone, and when I'm not at home, I use an emulated HP-48GX on it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 25 15:40:19 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:40:19 +0100 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> <3642B61F86F74C80842244A23648742B@dell8300> Message-ID: <007901cc636f$e4e1e170$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "TeoZ" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 11:59 PM Subject: Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) > > How many people saved old computer manuals compared to Lunar Orbiter > photographs? I might be wrong but photographs are not that pricey, original > negatives on the other hand are (you can make a million pictures from > those). Rarity and value are two different things anyway. > erm.. with (amateur) photography going digital, how would we get photographs from negatives? Also, what are the best conditions for storing negatives? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 25 16:55:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:55:54 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <007901cc636f$e4e1e170$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> <3642B61F86F74C80842244A23648742B@dell8300> <007901cc636f$e4e1e170$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4E56C4EA.9000305@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2011 04:40 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > erm.. with (amateur) photography going digital, how would we get photographs > from negatives? There are millions of photographic enlargers out there. They didn't all just disappear, you know. ;) Or those negatives can easily be scanned, and then printed on a dye-sub printer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 25 17:10:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:10:27 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E56C853.2000009@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2011 04:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> He also had an incredibly cool Sharp plotting calculator that I'm lucky >>> enough to still have. Damn hard to find new pens for it, though. >> >> Oh wow, that one sounds like fun! What model is it? > > I have an Shapr PC1500 which meets this description. The machine is a > reasonalbe pocket computer, it fits into a cradle containing a cassette > interace and one of those Alps 4-pen plottre mechanisms. Unfortunately, > as wityh many such plotters, the motor pinion gears have split with time, > so it's not useable at the momnet, I should have a go at cutting soem > replacements... Sounds like it's RepRap time.. > I also have the RS232 interface for it. Actaully, thete were 2 versions > of this. The Sharp one (CE158 IIRC) had both am RS232 and a Centronics > interfce. The Radio Shack one (sold for their PC2 machine) only has the > RS232 inteerface, the buffer bord (a couple of '04s IIRC) and the > conenctor for the Centronics interface are not fitted. The ROM is the > same, the commands ot access the Cnetronics interface are there but not > documented IIRC> > > Anyway, I have one of each type. In the spare space in the Radio Shack > one I fitted a bit of stripboard containing an ADC0804 ADC chip and a > 4-channel analoguemux wired to a DA15 socket, and conencted to the pins > on the I/O controller chip that would have been used for the Centronics > interface. The result is a combined 8-bit 4 channel ADC and RS232 > interface. Neat, a tiny portable data acquisition/data reduction/output device! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Aug 25 17:20:25 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:20:25 -0700 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: From: Jason McBrien Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 7:03 AM > Has anyone been to the Living Computer Museum? I'm going to Seattle in a few > weeks, and my significant other is geek-inclined... You can now request a visit from our home page at http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ With the WSJ article, we decided it was time to make it easy for folks who wanted to visit the dinosaurs. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rachael at telefisk.org Thu Aug 25 17:21:15 2011 From: rachael at telefisk.org (rachael at telefisk.org) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 00:21:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > There's a sad story about the fate of the one-of-a-kind HARVEST system (7950) > that IBM built for the NSA. Harvest coupled a 7030 with a 7951 stream > coprocessor, special two-hole-per-core high-speed core memory (7952), a 7955 > "Tractor" robotic tape system, and a 7959 high-speed exchange (I/O channel > controller). When the NSA decommissioned it in 1976, they wanted to give it > to IBM for their historical collection. However, being government property, > it had to be put up for auction. IBM's historian bid $20,050 for it, more > than a year's worth of his budget, and won it. Unfortunately not too many > years later someone else at IBM decided that they didn't want to store it any > longer. nsa did declassify some information about harvest earlier this year, http://cryptome.org/0004/nsa-50k-docs.pdf . But I don't think those are available in any electronic form, so someone would probably have to pay for hardcopies. -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From shumaker at att.net Thu Aug 25 18:14:56 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:14:56 -0700 Subject: DEC Collection on Craigs List in South Jersey Message-ID: <4E56D770.1020707@att.net> Just noticed a rather large collection of DEC equipment including a MicroVaxII and a CDC fixed disk on CL offered at $499 item no 2550822438. in the South Jersey (Cherry Hill) CL Steve From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 25 18:21:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:21:58 -0400 Subject: DEC Collection on Craigs List in South Jersey In-Reply-To: <4E56D770.1020707@att.net> References: <4E56D770.1020707@att.net> Message-ID: <4E56D916.8060805@neurotica.com> On 08/25/2011 07:14 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > Just noticed a rather large collection of DEC equipment including a > MicroVaxII and a CDC fixed disk on CL offered at $499 > > item no 2550822438. in the South Jersey (Cherry Hill) CL That's the same system that was up on eBay last week; it was discussed here. Very, very nice! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Aug 25 18:24:12 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Enlargers (was: eBay... Yikes!) In-Reply-To: <4E56C4EA.9000305@neurotica.com> References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> <3642B61F86F74C80842244A23648742B@dell8300> <007901cc636f$e4e1e170$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E56C4EA.9000305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/25/2011 04:40 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> erm.. with (amateur) photography going digital, how would we get >> photographs >> from negatives? > > There are millions of photographic enlargers out there. They didn't all > just disappear, you know. ;) > > Or those negatives can easily be scanned, and then printed on a dye-sub > printer. Personally my computer lab was recently taken apart in order to make room for my Darkroom. I have two enlargers, one is for up to 120 roll film, the second handles up to 4x5" negatives. Both of mine are quiet old, but you can still purchase new enlargers. For that matter, you can still purchase new film cameras. In the last year, I've shifted back to mainly shooting film. I can also scan 35mm through 4x5" negatives (I can shoot up to 8x10"), but when doing B&W I prefer to print on traditional B&W paper. For colour, I'll take the digital files to Costco, or some other place that can do prints (I will typically get traditional prints when I first have the film developed). Zane From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Aug 25 18:28:35 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 00:28:35 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E56DAA3.2020209@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/08/2011 19:29, Tony Duell wrote: >> Some of Modular Technology's Interfakers were like that, but my matrix >> board breakout box has three lines for each interface that could be tied > > Now that I like! > >> to any signal(s) without going anywhere. Most useful gadget I ever >> bought, and still in use -- and not just at home for hobby use.. Photo >> at http://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/6074843016/in/photostream (and my >> Interfaker is shown in the adjacent photo) > > I wonder if these things evre turn up for sane prices on E-bay? I've never seen another quite like mine, which is a pity. I'm resigned to having to make one if I need another, but I've never quite got round to it. I've got a couple more breakout boxes of various types. One is the size of the Interfaker but includes an LCD display and VOM. > I do have a couple of unusual breakout boxes. The 'breakout' part is > convemntion (DIP swtiches ot interrupt each signal line nad patch leads). > They have extra facilities. One is a pocket sized thing that'll do a bit > error rate ttest, detect signal transitions, etc (there's an 8085 + EPROM > + 8155 I/O inside). The other is a briefcase sized thing that not only > has a breakout box but also will capture the data from the line, display > it (LCD display), primnt it internal stripprinter), do RS232-current loop > conversions (with different baud rates on the 2 sides), RS232-parallel > (Centronics or Data Products IIRC) ocnversison and even program EPROMS > (!). The latter sounds a bit like my big blue serial analyser, which I've not used for a long time -- so long, I can't even remember the make. It's about the size of Tek 465 scope but the front cover is basically a keyboard. Of course now you can get a pocket-sized gadget connected to a laptop via USB to do all sorts, using software on the laptop to control it and analyse the data. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 18:41:30 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 19:41:30 -0400 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > You can now request a visit from our home page at > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > With the WSJ article, we decided it was time to make it easy for folks > who wanted to visit the dinosaurs. > Excellent! Thanks, Rich! I'm signing up now... From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 25 18:58:03 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:58:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E56C4EA.9000305@neurotica.com> References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> <3642B61F86F74C80842244A23648742B@dell8300> <007901cc636f$e4e1e170$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E56C4EA.9000305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110825165629.Y49593@shell.lmi.net> > > erm.. with (amateur) photography going digital, how would we get photographs > > from negatives? On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > There are millions of photographic enlargers out there. They didn't > all just disappear, you know. ;) They are now "hard to get rid of". > Or those negatives can easily be scanned, and then printed on a > dye-sub printer. Once scanned, many programs include options for reversal, and even filtering out the dye-mask of color negatives. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 25 19:18:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:18:42 -0600 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4E55E556.5030207@rogerwilco.org> References: <4E55E556.5030207@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: Another answer: E&S ESIG 3540 flight simulator image generator cabinets -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 25 19:28:01 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:28:01 -0600 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article , Jason McBrien writes: > Has anyone been to the Living Computer Museum? I'm going to Seattle in a few > weeks, and my significant other is geek-inclined... Yes, I've been there twice. Its awesome. Pictures: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 25 19:29:43 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:29:43 -0600 Subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <3718bc9eb07f4d655c0d6981d647ce1a@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> <3718bc9eb07f4d655c0d6981d647ce1a@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E56E8F7.1@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > I wonder where the one in the French museum (other reply) was used. Commisariat a l'Energie Atomique, for the design of nuclear weapons. I expect it was used for the same things as the Los Alamos, Lawrence Livermore, and UK Atomic Weapons Research Establishment systems. Possibly even running some of the same application software. My impression is that they saved a few of the console pieces and not much else of the machine. I'd very much like to be proven wrong. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 25 19:31:30 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:31:30 -0600 Subject: Can anyone ID this machine? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice older style flexowriter on the table :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 25 19:32:58 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:32:58 -0600 Subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E56E9BA.3080008@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Can you provide *specific* information on what makes the 7030 > Selectric console unique? It predated the release of the Selectric typewriter, which is why it was deliberately obscured from view in all of the STRETCH publicity photos. It is probably similar to the typewriter portion of the 1050 as used for a System/360 console, but I doubt that it is identical. Unfortunately I don't have details, so I wouldn't even know how to identify one. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 25 19:43:38 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:43:38 -0600 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E56EC3A.90606@brouhaha.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems rather picky, as they're quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra index registers. "Soldered with silver and gold"? All of them I've seen use normal tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery, plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in computers. I've never heard of gold solder used for anything other than jewelery, and wouldn't think it would be useful for computers. Hmmm... a web search does reveal that gold solder is sometimes used for soldering gold metalized alumina ceramic plages to gold plated Kovar alloy assemblies. I haven't seen that kind of thing in really old computers, though. From shumaker at att.net Thu Aug 25 19:47:16 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 17:47:16 -0700 Subject: DEC Collection on Craigs List in South Jersey In-Reply-To: <4E56D916.8060805@neurotica.com> References: <4E56D770.1020707@att.net> <4E56D916.8060805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E56ED14.8040800@att.net> ok.. I'll go back to sleep now....zzzzzzzzz On 8/25/2011 4:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/25/2011 07:14 PM, steve shumaker wrote: >> Just noticed a rather large collection of DEC equipment including a >> MicroVaxII and a CDC fixed disk on CL offered at $499 >> >> item no 2550822438. in the South Jersey (Cherry Hill) CL > > That's the same system that was up on eBay last week; it was > discussed here. Very, very nice! > > -Dave > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 25 20:43:54 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <4E56C853.2000009@neurotica.com> References: <4E56C853.2000009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/25/2011 04:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> He also had an incredibly cool Sharp plotting calculator that I'm lucky >>>> enough to still have. Damn hard to find new pens for it, though. >>> >>> Oh wow, that one sounds like fun! What model is it? >> >> I have an Shapr PC1500 which meets this description. The machine is a >> reasonalbe pocket computer, it fits into a cradle containing a cassette >> interace and one of those Alps 4-pen plottre mechanisms. Unfortunately, >> as wityh many such plotters, the motor pinion gears have split with time, >> so it's not useable at the momnet, I should have a go at cutting soem >> replacements... > > Sounds like it's RepRap time.. > If you can create a 3D model of the gear, you can have it printed in a very durable plastic by the folks at Ponoko. The process takes a couple of weeks, but the prices are great. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 20:49:41 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 21:49:41 -0400 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Richard wrote: > > Yes, I've been there twice. Its awesome. > > Pictures: > > -- Place looks like my basement, with big iron instead of micros :) From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Aug 25 22:32:38 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 20:32:38 -0700 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <461101b14d4e1032a9ef55ea1ecfcdb6@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: There is conversation in the community about ensuring its preservation. :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rick Bensene [rickb at bensene.com] Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Gee, they went looking for a 7094 but only found a 7090, how dejecting > is that. > > Seriously though, I do understand if the museum has a particular > mandate or focus. The quest for a 7094 comes from the fact that it was the first machine that IBM sold that could support a true timesharing computing environment. Mr. Allen's focus is on historical timeshare computing environments, because that's where he and Gates cut their teeth learning about programming and operating systems. While the 7090 was cool, it didn't have the hardware capabilities needed to do timesharing. I sure hope *someone* rescue[ds] that 7090. From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 25 22:42:27 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 22:42:27 -0500 Subject: Low Profile "Header" help needed Message-ID: <4E571623.2030905@jbrain.com> I'm struggling with designing adapters for situations where things sit right above a PCB (like the CBM 1541-II PCB under the disk mechanism) where there is not enough room for a: Header PCB Socket IC And sometimes not enough for even: Header PCB IC A while back, I found a pic of a "low profile" header option. Pic: http://postimage.org/image/2o6zinnk4/ Notice how the header pins are attached to a plastic "film"? Does anyone know what that is called, or better yet, have a source for this type of header? Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 23:03:34 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 05:03:34 +0100 Subject: Low Profile "Header" help needed In-Reply-To: <4E571623.2030905@jbrain.com> References: <4E571623.2030905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: That redish plastic is a bit of "flexible pcb" and is normally made to order as the copper traces are internal to its structure when finished, Ready made used to be available for straight wiring, we got ours from Gore many years ago Dave Caroline On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:42 AM, Jim Brain wrote: > I'm struggling with designing adapters for situations where things sit right > above a PCB (like the CBM 1541-II PCB under the disk mechanism) where there > is not enough room for a: > > Header > PCB > Socket > IC > > And sometimes not enough for even: > > Header > PCB > IC > > A while back, I found a pic of a "low profile" header option. > > Pic: ?http://postimage.org/image/2o6zinnk4/ > > Notice how the header pins are attached to a plastic "film"? ?Does anyone > know what that is called, or better yet, have a source for this type of > header? > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 23:28:36 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 23:28:36 -0500 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <4E56C853.2000009@neurotica.com> References: <4E56C853.2000009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> one of those Alps 4-pen plottre mechanisms. Unfortunately, >> as wityh many such plotters, the motor pinion gears have split with time, >> so it's not useable at the momnet, I should have a go at cutting soem >> replacements... > > ?Sounds like it's RepRap time.. I have several Alps plotters (Commodore 1520, the Atari-wrapped version, and some spare mechs I got from Electronic Goldmine c. 2003). I also have a RepRap and know what it can do. It can't do this. It _can_ do gears, but 2mm is the smallest reproducible feature size (as designed) using a 0.25-0.5mm-dia extruded filament. I'd link directly to a 2003-era thread on this, but it seems the archives aren't present on classiccmp.org right now. Here's a cached version... http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7uHbphsJdCwJ:www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-April/021325.html+%22Ethan+Dicks%22+commodore+plotter+gear&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com "about 1/8" in diameter and 5/32" long with a bore of 1/20" ... so the entire gear is 3mm across. Too small to print on a RepRap or Makerbot (same technology, same resolution). I still have some broken plotters. I'm still interested in landing a handful of gears. I only hope my pens are any good. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 26 00:27:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 01:27:55 -0400 Subject: Awesome Modcomp front panels In-Reply-To: <1314096233.42936.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1314096233.42936.YahooMailClassic@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E572EDB.4080407@neurotica.com> On 08/23/2011 06:43 AM, William Maddox wrote: > The pictures on the GSA auction listing don't show a very good > look at the front panels. Here's a close-up of another machine > from the web: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/39561370 at N00/238688860/ > > That's the most awesome front-panel I've ever seen on a 16-bit mini. > DEC, eat your heart out. Wow, beautiful systems! Who ended up getting them? I hope they went to a good home. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 26 01:32:15 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 07:32:15 +0100 Subject: Low Profile "Header" help needed In-Reply-To: References: <4E571623.2030905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4E573DEF.8020503@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/08/2011 05:03, Dave Caroline wrote: > That redish plastic is a bit of "flexible pcb" and is normally made to > order as the copper traces are internal to its structure when > finished, Ready made used to be available for straight wiring, we got > ours from Gore many years ago In this case I don't think it is. Sometimes small pins like that are sold mounted on Kapton tape to preserve the spacing, and make it easier to assemble. I think that example is just pins that were sold by the inch rather than the unit, and I suspect . I've certainly seen things like that sold in electronics catalogues like Farnell's in the past. Kapton tape is a kind of thin flexible polyimide tape which is heat-resistant and non-stretchy. You can buy self-adhesive Kapton tape to hold things together, or to mask off areas, for soft-soldering. Your favourite(?) auction site is a good source, but Farnell and presumably other suppliers stock it. However it also used to be possible to get flexible PCB material for etching; Farnell used to stock that too, though I can't find it in the catalogue now. I can't see how it would help with this need, though. The tracks can easily be on the normal PCB. > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:42 AM, Jim Brain wrote: >> I'm struggling with designing adapters for situations where things sit right >> above a PCB (like the CBM 1541-II PCB under the disk mechanism) where there >> is not enough room for a: >> >> Header >> PCB >> Socket >> IC >> >> And sometimes not enough for even: >> >> Header >> PCB >> IC >> >> A while back, I found a pic of a "low profile" header option. >> >> Pic: http://postimage.org/image/2o6zinnk4/ >> >> Notice how the header pins are attached to a plastic "film"? Does anyone >> know what that is called, or better yet, have a source for this type of >> header? >> >> Jim >> >> -- >> Jim Brain >> brain at jbrain.com >> www.jbrain.com >> >> -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 26 02:03:46 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 08:03:46 +0100 Subject: Low Profile "Header" help needed In-Reply-To: <4E571623.2030905@jbrain.com> References: <4E571623.2030905@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4E574552.20205@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/08/2011 04:42, Jim Brain wrote: > I'm struggling with designing adapters for situations where things sit > right above a PCB (like the CBM 1541-II PCB under the disk mechanism) > where there is not enough room When I've needed really low-profile things like that, what I've sometimes done is take apart one or two turned pin sockets, and made a PCB that has the pins mounted in it in oversized holed, so the pins from the socket become the pins of the carrier. There's a commercial example of a similar thing at http://onecall.farnell.com/productimages/farnell/standard/42260843.jpg The product that illustrates is described at http://onecall.farnell.com/e-tech/qit-314-s001-95/socket-ic-0-1uf-14way/dp/1217108 although it won't help directly. My usual need is for something like an EPROM with a small number of connections re-routed to different pins. In that case, I drill two sets of oversized holes, one slightly larger than the other. The turned pins in the larger holes become the pins of the carrier, and the turned pins in the slightly smaller holes don't go through quite so far (most turned pins have a step in the socket part). They become the socket, and I break the pins off the bottom of those ones. Another way, but rather taller, is to plug one turned pin socket into another, breaking off the pins on the upper socket in places where they need re-routed, filing down the socket part on the pin underneath that if necessary to ensure no contact, and making the connections for those with wire-wrap wire. You can also get ultra-low profile tape-mounted DIL sockets. Harwin make some, eg http://onecall.farnell.com/harwin/d01f6020001/socket-sil-1-carrier-with-100-ways/dp/519959?Ntt=519959 and they also make them on a carrier (Farnell part 177-847) Tyco make "Holtite" "zero profile" sockets, but rather fiddly to insert. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 26 02:26:18 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 08:26:18 +0100 Subject: Low Profile "Header" help needed In-Reply-To: <4E574552.20205@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E571623.2030905@jbrain.com> <4E574552.20205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E574A9A.8020505@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/08/2011 08:03, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 26/08/2011 04:42, Jim Brain wrote: >> I'm struggling with designing adapters for situations where things sit >> right above a PCB (like the CBM 1541-II PCB under the disk mechanism) >> where there is not enough room > My usual need is for something like an EPROM with a small number of > connections re-routed to different pins. In that case, I drill two sets > of oversized holes, one slightly larger than the other. The turned pins > in the larger holes become the pins of the carrier, and the turned pins > in the slightly smaller holes don't go through quite so far (most turned > pins have a step in the socket part). They become the socket, and I > break the pins off the bottom of those ones. > > Another way, but rather taller, is to plug one turned pin socket into > another, breaking off the pins on the upper socket in places where they > need re-routed, filing down the socket part on the pin underneath that > if necessary to ensure no contact, and making the connections for those > with wire-wrap wire. I just found something that illustrates the idea -- this particular example is probably no use to Jim, as the interconnections are encapsulated, but the picture shows the idea. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/products/1583023/ See also the data sheet (or Google Wimslow Adaptics, part no W9114RC), it has a good picture at the top of the first page. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Aug 26 11:35:00 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:35:00 -0700 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4E56EC3A.90606@brouhaha.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E56EC3A.90606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: From: Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:44 PM Christian Liendo wrote: >> Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up >> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html > So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems rather picky, as they're > quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra > index registers. Our focus at the museum is on interactive computing, especially timesharing mainframe systems and minicomputers. The 7090 is, and can be, neither. We have a budget, and only spend money to further that mission. > "Soldered with silver and gold"? All of them I've seen use normal > tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery, > plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in > computers. I've never heard of gold solder used for anything other than > jewelery, and wouldn't think it would be useful for computers. > Hmmm... a web search does reveal that gold solder is sometimes used for > soldering gold metalized alumina ceramic plages to gold plated Kovar > alloy assemblies. I haven't seen that kind of thing in really old > computers, though. You should come visit the Xerox Sigma systems, to see what it looks like in massive quantity. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Aug 26 11:40:52 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:40:52 -0700 Subject: Needed in Seattle: Unibus analyzer (Guy Sotormayor's UA-11) Message-ID: We are waiting for a UA-11 from Guy, but in the mean time a high-priority project is being held up for lack of a way to check out the Unibus on a PDP-11/40. Does anyone in the Seattle-Tacoma region have one of these that we might borrow until we get our own? Please feel free to reply off-line if you like. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 11:45:51 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:45:51 -0500 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E56EC3A.90606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: sad when ur looking for one thing and find something amazing but does not fit inside ur mandate :( hopefully some sweet home is made for the poor machean in aus who ever that farmer is deserves something for taking the time and space to spare it from death On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Eric Smith > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:44 PM > > Christian Liendo wrote: > >> Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up > >> > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html > > > So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems rather picky, as they're > > quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra > > index registers. > > Our focus at the museum is on interactive computing, especially timesharing > mainframe systems and minicomputers. The 7090 is, and can be, neither. We > have a budget, and only spend money to further that mission. > > > "Soldered with silver and gold"? All of them I've seen use normal > > tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery, > > plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in > > computers. I've never heard of gold solder used for anything other than > > jewelery, and wouldn't think it would be useful for computers. > > > Hmmm... a web search does reveal that gold solder is sometimes used for > > soldering gold metalized alumina ceramic plages to gold plated Kovar > > alloy assemblies. I haven't seen that kind of thing in really old > > computers, though. > > You should come visit the Xerox Sigma systems, to see what it looks like > in massive quantity. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 12:28:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:28:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <007901cc636f$e4e1e170$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Aug 25, 11 09:40:19 pm Message-ID: > erm.. with (amateur) photography going digital, how would we get photographs > from negatives? Also, what are the best conditions for storing negatives? [ARD loks around at film cameras fron A (Argus) to Z (Sorki)...] While it's undoubtedly true that many amateur (and professional) photographers own a digital camera (I guess my Datacopy 300 on a PERQ counts :-)). it undoubtedly untrue that no enthusasts still use film. As for gtting prints from negatives, you can do it the same way you always did. Plenty od enthusiasts have enlargers still which can handle a wide range of negtive sizes. I also believe that negative/tranparency scanners exist should you want to go the digital route. it's not my subject at all, but I would guess that the image processing needed to turn the scan of a negative into a postive was fairly straightforward. Of course you can _make_ an enlarger too. There have been many designd published over the years, the only really critical bit is that the negative and printing paer are both perpendicualr to the lens optical axis (unless you deiiberately want them not to be to correct for 'converging verticals') I susepct gridning the lens elements for the enlarger lens is beyond most people, though. A camera lens will work, but the image qualtiy will not be as good as it could be (camera lenses are corrected for large object distances). A macro lens should work well though. And true enlarger lenses are not hard to find. Of course if it;s a large format negative you cna easily make a contact print from it. I know that I'd much rather have ot print a negative than try to decode an uncodumented digital image file. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 12:55:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:55:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E56DAA3.2020209@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 26, 11 00:28:35 am Message-ID: > > + 8155 I/O inside). The other is a briefcase sized thing that not only > > has a breakout box but also will capture the data from the line, display > > it (LCD display), primnt it internal stripprinter), do RS232-current loop > > conversions (with different baud rates on the 2 sides), RS232-parallel > > (Centronics or Data Products IIRC) ocnversison and even program EPROMS > > (!). > > The latter sounds a bit like my big blue serial analyser, which I've not > used for a long time -- so long, I can't even remember the make. It's I think I may have something like that somwere. Mine needs a new CRT though.... The unit wa was thinking of is caleld a 'Ferret' and is rather smaller. They really didn't wnat you to get inside. The panel and intenral PCBs are all held on by System Zero screws, Why I do not know. Needless to day this stopped me for only as long as it took RS to supply a set of such tools :-) The keyboard on the Ferret is essentailly a hex keypad, I think it's 2 rows of 9 keys or something like that. > about the size of Tek 465 scope but the front cover is basically a > keyboard. Of course now you can get a pocket-sized gadget connected to > a laptop via USB to do all sorts, using software on the laptop to > control it and analyse the data. Along with an USB EPROM programmer, USB-current loop converter (does that even esist?) and so on. I'll stick to the Ferret, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 12:34:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:34:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <20110825135416.L44991@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 25, 11 02:06:39 pm Message-ID: > > I preFer to open things up in the least destructive way possible. Often > > That depends on the thing, and whether re-assembly is to be considered. I am thinking of reasons why I would dismantle something. One obvious reaosn si to repair it, in which case I want to be able to reassemble it (or at least reusse most of the original parts). Anther reason would be to figure out how it works (or how it worked before it failed), in which case I want to keep it in as original as state as possible. It's a lot easier to work out how something works if the PCBs is in one piece, components are where they should be (and are intact so I can make measurements on them) and so on. > Unlike ARD, some of us sometimes feel that the greatest value that some > things have may be as a recipient of mindless brutal violence. (even I don;t think I ever do anything 'mindlessly'. I try to have a good reason for everything I do. > Well, the largest mallet that I have handy is only 4 pounds, so I'm going > to mail it to Poughkeepsie, instead. THAT might subject it to enough > impact(s) to open it. If not, then somebody else can maturely and > carefully unseal it. A Michael Flanders said 'The new way to split the atom : Send it through the post marked 'fragile'' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 12:40:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:40:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <20110825230937.797eea0d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 25, 11 11:09:37 pm Message-ID: > > Erm, have you tried balancing even a laptop on a lathe bed? Many times I > > need to claculate angles, amount of metal to remove, etc and an HP > > calculator is a lot more usable than a PC... > \begin{trol} > That's the time where I pull out my Android smart phone and start the > HP48 emulator App... ;-) > \end{trol} I find a real physical keyboard (particualrly an old=style HP one :-)) to be a lot more useagble than a touchscreen in such circumstnaces. > > p.s. That HP48 emulator for Android is no joke. > p.p.s. Yes, I really use that emulator. > p.p.p.s. Yes, I prefere real hardware. Therefor I have a HP48SX on my > desk at home, a HP41CV on my desk at work and a HP33 in the kitchen / > work shop / dark room. Which HP33? The real one (Spice series 33E or 33C with a red LED display) or the modern HP33S thing? FWIW, the physical cosntrruction of early HP3xE/3xC machines was odd. There was a flexible PCB rwrapped round a metal chassis plate. The top surface of this had the keyboard conctacts formed in it. The lower side had a laeary of foam betwen the metal and the flexible PCB. The ICs (normal DIL packages,40 pin processor and 8 pin memory devices) had their pins bend outwards and were fitted into a plastic frame that was clamped agained the flaxible PCB so that the IC Pins came into contact with pads on the PCB. No sodler was used. The display unit was fitted similarly. There was a ocnventional PCB with the PSU circuitry on it, this had a felxible PCB tail that was also clamped (not soldered) to to the main flexible PCB. Amazingly it works, althogh apparently it wansn't all that reliable, so later machine were built in a move conventional way with the ICs and PSU 'tail' soldrred to a normal PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 12:45:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:45:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <4E56C853.2000009@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 25, 11 06:10:27 pm Message-ID: > > interace and one of those Alps 4-pen plottre mechanisms. Unfortunately, > > as wityh many such plotters, the motor pinion gears have split with time, > > so it's not useable at the momnet, I should have a go at cutting soem > > replacements... > > Sounds like it's RepRap time.. Assuming that's one of those '3D printers'. I doubt it has the resolution to make something like this. The pinions are about 3mm overall diameter and have perhaps 10 or 12 leaves (teeth to the rest of you ;-)) In any cae, i find press-fitted plastic parts do tend to fail with time. I would prefer to make a metal replacement pinion and fit it with Loctite or similar. [Modified Radio Shack PC2 serial box] > > interface. The result is a combined 8-bit 4 channel ADC and RS232 > > interface. > > Neat, a tiny portable data acquisition/data reduction/output device! Exaclty... I also have the HP3221 unit (HPIL-controleld data logger, bascially) which I use with my HP41 and HP71 machines, although it's a little large to be easily portable (it's a 2U rack unit, albeit a plastic case). I also have a home-made I2C interface for my HP48 with 8 and 12 bit ADC add-ons. I've always htought that there should be a combined programmable calcualtor (RPN of course...) and DMM. Preferably with control outputs too. It would be very useful. -tony From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 13:38:23 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:38:23 -0500 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <007901cc636f$e4e1e170$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: loves my zorki-4 though i only use it once in a blue moon its still fun to take out On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 12:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > erm.. with (amateur) photography going digital, how would we get > photographs > > from negatives? Also, what are the best conditions for storing negatives? > > [ARD loks around at film cameras fron A (Argus) to Z (Sorki)...] > > While it's undoubtedly true that many amateur (and professional) > photographers own a digital camera (I guess my Datacopy 300 on a PERQ > counts :-)). it undoubtedly untrue that no enthusasts still use film. > > As for gtting prints from negatives, you can do it the same way you > always did. Plenty od enthusiasts have enlargers still which can handle a > wide range of negtive sizes. I also believe that negative/tranparency > scanners exist should you want to go the digital route. it's not my > subject at all, but I would guess that the image processing needed to > turn the scan of a negative into a postive was fairly straightforward. > > Of course you can _make_ an enlarger too. There have been many designd > published over the years, the only really critical bit is that the > negative and printing paer are both perpendicualr to the lens optical > axis (unless you deiiberately want them not to be to correct for > 'converging verticals') I susepct gridning the lens elements for the > enlarger lens is beyond most people, though. A camera lens will work, but > the image qualtiy will not be as good as it could be (camera lenses are > corrected for large object distances). A macro lens should work well > though. And true enlarger lenses are not hard to find. > > Of course if it;s a large format negative you cna easily make a contact > print from it. > > I know that I'd much rather have ot print a negative than try to decode > an uncodumented digital image file. > > -tony > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 14:02:40 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 15:02:40 -0400 Subject: What terminal model appears in "Buckaroo Banzai"? Message-ID: Hi, All, Due to an off-hand watermelon comment made around the house last night, I rewatched "Buckaroo Banzai". I already know the computer in the President's hospital room is a DEC Rainbow 100 (with a faux-TV-image overlay) and the computer at the Banzai compound is an CompuPro 8/16 ( http://starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=78 ), but what's that orange-tinted terminal attached to the S-100 box? -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 26 14:14:00 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:14:00 -0600 Subject: What terminal model appears in "Buckaroo Banzai"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E57F078.3000107@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/26/2011 1:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > Due to an off-hand watermelon comment made around the house last > night, I rewatched "Buckaroo Banzai". I already know the computer in > the President's hospital room is a DEC Rainbow 100 (with a > faux-TV-image overlay) and the computer at the Banzai compound is an > CompuPro 8/16 ( http://starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=78 ), but > what's that orange-tinted terminal attached to the S-100 box? The hot line to the USSR !? > -ethan > From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 14:28:29 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 12:28:29 -0700 Subject: What terminal model appears in "Buckaroo Banzai"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Due to an off-hand watermelon comment made around the house last > night, I rewatched "Buckaroo Banzai". ?I already know the computer in > the President's hospital room is a DEC Rainbow 100 (with a > faux-TV-image overlay) and the computer at the Banzai compound is an > CompuPro 8/16 ( http://starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=78 ), but > what's that orange-tinted terminal attached to the S-100 box? > > -ethan > Not sure about the terminal but the printer is an IDS Prism 132 or maybe a Dataproducts as they bought the IDS printer division in the mid 1980s. The keyboard to the terminal kind of looks like a televideo. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 26 14:33:13 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 12:33:13 -0700 Subject: What terminal model appears in "Buckaroo Banzai"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E57F4F9.90606@bitsavers.org> On 8/26/11 12:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > what's that orange-tinted terminal attached to the S-100 box? > It looks like a Vectrix with a Televideo keyboard http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=253&st=1 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 14:35:34 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 15:35:34 -0400 Subject: Printing replacement Alps plotter motor pinion gears Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > ... one of those Alps 4-pen plottre mechanisms. Unfortunately, >> > as wityh many such plotters, the motor pinion gears have split with time, >> > so it's not useable at the momnet, I should have a go at cutting soem >> > replacements... >> >> ? ?Sounds like it's RepRap time.. > > Assuming that's one of those '3D printers'. I doubt it has the resolution > to make something like this. It does not (as I mentioned in my previous message that you might not have seen), *but* I may have an alternative method to use this technology. > The pinions are about 3mm overall diameter Yes. > and have perhaps 10 or 12 leaves (teeth to the rest of you ;-)) Something like that, yes. I don't recall the precise number and can't find the previous discussion threads that have happened on this list over the years. I realize that to a trained machinist with the right tools, cutting gears is just another day on the job. I am very much a novice when it comes to lathes and mills. To me, cutting a gear that's 3mm across the face is a serious challenge. It's also time consuming - paying someone else to do it starts to get rather expensive (at two pinion gears per mech). The size is a bit on the small side, but it may be possible to order printed gears made from sintered metal from Shapeways. Their requirements are that all dimensions be 2.5mm or larger. This gear barely qualifies. If someone just happens to have an STL-format file of this gear, that'd be terrific, but if not, if one has a 2D image of the face of the gear, OpenSCAD or, now, the Shapeways website itself, can easily extrude a flat outline to a 3D version of the silhouette. One such tool for generating (self-described low precision) gear patterns is here: http://woodgears.ca/gear_cutting/template.html ... and I'm sure there are many others. Shapeways charges by the cubic centimeter of material used. There's not much volume in a 3mm-diameter gear with a 1.3mm-diameter hole in it - my first estimate is under 20 mm^3 (a cube 3mm on a side is 27 mm^3 after all). You could fit 27 gears in 1cc with lots of room to spare, and 1cc of Shapeways "stainless" bills at $10 with no apparent setup fees for standard finishes. I haven't handled any of Shapeways' metal products, but I'm imagining a surface smoothness based on the grain size and the laser focal point diameter and the stepper resolution, but until clarified, I'd consider 300dpi to be a starting point for estimation purposes. One can do some shaping and smoothing work after the printing process, naturally, but the less of that required, the better. So is there anyone here who has the CAD skills to draw a gear, or at least sufficient skills as a machinist to completely and adequately describe the critical parameters for someone else to work from? I think it could be inexpensive to do a run of a handful of gears through Shapeways. Because of the strictly functional nature of the part, there should be no worries of trademark or other IP infringement, to head that discussion off. I can bang out something that's close, but I don't believe I have the skills to evaluate if my attempts would be close enough (specifically something that's going to fit on the motor shaft and not chew up the next gear in the train). Is there anyone here willing to draft a gear profile or at least parametrically describe the gear in terms suitable for reproduction? If so, I can see about taking that beginning to the next stage. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 14:47:17 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 15:47:17 -0400 Subject: What terminal model appears in "Buckaroo Banzai"? In-Reply-To: <4E57F4F9.90606@bitsavers.org> References: <4E57F4F9.90606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/26/11 12:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> what's that orange-tinted terminal attached to the S-100 box? >> > > It looks like a Vectrix with a Televideo keyboard > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=253&st=1 Thank you for the quick response. I concur as to the resemblance. The text color seen in the movie is a rather intense color - I'm guessing it was selected for its striking divergence from the whites and greens and (by comparison) subtle ambers of the time, but absent any comments from the director, we may never know the nature of that detail. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 26 14:59:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 20:59:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Aug 26, 11 01:38:23 pm Message-ID: > > loves my zorki-4 though i only use it once in a blue moon its still fun to > take out Do you have the book 'All you need to know about the design and repair of Russian cameras'? It's well worth trying to get it if you have such a device... It has the clearest explanation of the Kiev/ Contax II shutter that I've ever read. I disagree wit the title though, it doesn';t cover the Narciss or any meduium-format SLRs. The Zorkis are often claimed ot be Leica copies, but the later ones most ceratainly are not. For moen thing they have all the shutter speeds (the fast ones set by the curtain gap and the slow ones set by a timer escapement) on one dial, something that now screw-mount Leica rver had. That slow-speed mechansim is quite cunning, btw with a geat fitted around the shutter master shaft (The one the shtter speed dial is on the top of), but turning freely and with a pin that's caught by the shutter speed setting cam. Pity it was never fitted to Zenith SLRs (not of which had slow speeds IIRC). It was fitted to the curious Narciss 16mm SLR thohgh. -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Aug 26 15:10:25 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:10:25 -0400 Subject: What terminal model appears in "Buckaroo Banzai"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E57FDB1.3020402@atarimuseum.com> What do watermelons have to do with Buckaroo Banzai? Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > Due to an off-hand watermelon comment made around the house last > night, I rewatched "Buckaroo Banzai". I already know the computer in > the President's hospital room is a DEC Rainbow 100 (with a > faux-TV-image overlay) and the computer at the Banzai compound is an > CompuPro 8/16 ( http://starringthecomputer.com/feature.php?f=78 ), but > what's that orange-tinted terminal attached to the S-100 box? > > -ethan > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 26 15:27:08 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:27:08 -0600 Subject: What terminal model appears in "Buckaroo Banzai"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Its not on that website, but in the very beginning of the rocket car test drive, there's clearly an Apple ][ being used to generate graphics. It has the tell-tale 4-lines of text at the bottom of the screen. SINED SEALED DELIVERED -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 15:36:10 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:36:10 -0400 Subject: What terminal model appears in "Buckaroo Banzai"? In-Reply-To: <4E57FDB1.3020402@atarimuseum.com> References: <4E57FDB1.3020402@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > What do watermelons have to do with Buckaroo Banzai? During a chase scene, the camera pans past a watermelon in a large hydraulic press. Jeff Goldblum's character asks "why is there a watermelon there?" The response is simply, "I'll tell you later", and that's the end of it. Jeff (and the audience) never find out. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 26 15:37:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:37:26 -0400 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E56EC3A.90606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> Seconded!! I have the space for it, but have no way to get it here. -Dave On 08/26/2011 12:45 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > sad when ur looking for one thing and find something amazing but does not > fit inside ur mandate :( hopefully some sweet home is made for the poor > machean in aus who ever that farmer is deserves something for taking the > time and space to spare it from death > > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >> From: Eric Smith >> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:44 PM >> >> Christian Liendo wrote: >>>> Just interesting that that WSJ picked this up >>>> >> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html >> >>> So Mr. Allen didn't want a 7090? That seems rather picky, as they're >>> quite similar machines, other than that the 7090 didn't have the extra >>> index registers. >> >> Our focus at the museum is on interactive computing, especially timesharing >> mainframe systems and minicomputers. The 7090 is, and can be, neither. We >> have a budget, and only spend money to further that mission. >> >>> "Soldered with silver and gold"? All of them I've seen use normal >>> tin-lead solder. I thought silver solder was mostly used for jewelery, >>> plumbing, and high-temperature stuff, which wouldn't usually be found in >>> computers. I've never heard of gold solder used for anything other than >>> jewelery, and wouldn't think it would be useful for computers. >> >>> Hmmm... a web search does reveal that gold solder is sometimes used for >>> soldering gold metalized alumina ceramic plages to gold plated Kovar >>> alloy assemblies. I haven't seen that kind of thing in really old >>> computers, though. >> >> You should come visit the Xerox Sigma systems, to see what it looks like >> in massive quantity. >> >> >> Rich Alderson >> Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer >> Vulcan, Inc. >> 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 >> Seattle, WA 98104 >> >> mailto:RichA at vulcan.com >> mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org >> >> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ >> >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Aug 26 15:39:48 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 22:39:48 +0200 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: <20110825230937.797eea0d.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110826223948.90cdb956.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:40:13 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I find a real physical keyboard (particualrly an old=style HP one :-)) to > be a lot more useagble than a touchscreen in such circumstnaces. True. That is the reason why I have real HPs on my desks. But I am not allways at my desk. So the emulator on Android is better then nothing. > Which HP33? The real one (Spice series 33E or 33C with a red LED display) > or the modern HP33S thing? Sorry, I confused this. It is a HP45. It's a shame. I pulled this fine calculator out of a dumpster. The one and only defect was a leaked battery pack. I just removed the battery pack and use it with the wall wart... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 15:42:40 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 21:42:40 +0100 Subject: Printing replacement Alps plotter motor pinion gears In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am one of those that makes the real thing TM, at those sizes I dont expect quality from cheap 3d printing. when I get the 5 axis powered up I could generate one if someone gives me the dimensions. or possibly an excuse to get the hobbing machine working. Another job on the list is to add spindle feedback to the 5 axis mill then it too can hob gears. For some one offs I just dremel up a flycutter and hack some standard gcode then let the 5 axis handle it as :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAtziCsUj5Q At these sizes and duty cycle one can get away with a few inaccuracies http://gears.archivist.info/gears/index.html Dave Caroline From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 26 15:42:34 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 13:42:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Printing replacement Alps plotter motor pinion gears In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Aug 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> ... one of those Alps 4-pen plottre mechanisms. Unfortunately, >>>> as wityh many such plotters, the motor pinion gears have split with time, >>>> so it's not useable at the momnet, I should have a go at cutting soem >>>> replacements... >>> >>> ? ?Sounds like it's RepRap time.. >> >> Assuming that's one of those '3D printers'. I doubt it has the resolution >> to make something like this. > > It does not (as I mentioned in my previous message that you might not > have seen), *but* I may have an alternative method to use this > technology. > >> The pinions are about 3mm overall diameter > > > I can bang out something that's close, but I don't believe I have the > skills to evaluate if my attempts would be close enough (specifically > something that's going to fit on the motor shaft and not chew up the > next gear in the train). Is there anyone here willing to draft a gear > profile or at least parametrically describe the gear in terms suitable > for reproduction? If so, I can see about taking that beginning to the > next stage. > If you can get me the specs on the gear, I can make a model of it in Inventor. I'd start with a flat pattern made in Gearotic (http://www.gearotic.com) and then go from there. Ponoko offers similar services to Shapeways. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 16:01:19 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 14:01:19 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 and Zilog 8000 docs spotted Message-ID: Spotted on epay...thought there might be interest here...no connection with the seller 310335159258 Lot of Zilog Z8000 CPU Manuals, Specs, Dev Mod, Assembl 310335159274 Lot of 5 Original IBM 5110 Portable Computer Manuals -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 26 16:40:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:40:17 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5812C1.70106@neurotica.com> On 08/26/2011 01:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I know that I'd much rather have ot print a negative than try to decode > an uncodumented digital image file. I'm right there with you on that. Fortunately, nearly all of them that are actually being used anywhere are well-documented. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 26 16:41:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:41:00 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5812EC.2040604@neurotica.com> On 08/26/2011 01:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Erm, have you tried balancing even a laptop on a lathe bed? Many times I >>> need to claculate angles, amount of metal to remove, etc and an HP >>> calculator is a lot more usable than a PC... >> \begin{trol} >> That's the time where I pull out my Android smart phone and start the >> HP48 emulator App... ;-) >> \end{trol} > > I find a real physical keyboard (particualrly an old=style HP one :-)) to > be a lot more useagble than a touchscreen in such circumstnaces. Agree 100% here. But I'm not going to carry one of my precious HP calcs with me everywhere I go. They're getting harder and harder to replace! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Aug 26 16:44:19 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 22:44:19 +0100 Subject: Printing replacement Alps plotter motor pinion gears In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5813B3.3080602@philpem.me.uk> On 26/08/11 20:35, Ethan Dicks wrote: > So is there anyone here who has the CAD skills to draw a gear, or at > least sufficient skills as a machinist to completely and adequately > describe the critical parameters for someone else to work from? I > think it could be inexpensive to do a run of a handful of gears > through Shapeways. Because of the strictly functional nature of the > part, there should be no worries of trademark or other IP > infringement, to head that discussion off. Well I'd be interested in a few of these to keep as spares -- I have a Sharp CE-series plotter which is basically an Alps plotter mech bolted onto a Sharp controller board. CE515P or something like that. ... But what I'd REALLY be interested in are a few of those blasted pens! I can probably machine some adapters and so forth on the lathe, but I've never -- not even once -- seen a pen refill which was short enough to fit in the holder. I suppose the ideal would be something like a Rapidograph nib mated to an ink reservoir, but those things seem to be prone to blocking if you leave them open on the table. Though that said, if Laszlo Biro managed to make a ballpoint pen in 1938, it should be possible to produce something similar with modern machine tools. Getting the viscosity of the ink 'just right' might be a bit of a pig though. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From useddec at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 17:06:47 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:06:47 -0500 Subject: Needed in Seattle: Unibus analyzer (Guy Sotormayor's UA-11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rich, The KM11? I can try to find one of mine over the weekend and ship it to you on Monday if that helps. I'm not sure were the overlays are. Paul On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > We are waiting for a UA-11 from Guy, but in the mean time a high-priority > project is being held up for lack of a way to check out the Unibus on a > PDP-11/40. > > Does anyone in the Seattle-Tacoma region have one of these that we might > borrow until we get our own? > > Please feel free to reply off-line if you like. > > Thanks, > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > > From brain at jbrain.com Fri Aug 26 18:02:15 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:02:15 -0500 Subject: Low Profile "Header" help needed In-Reply-To: <4E573DEF.8020503@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E571623.2030905@jbrain.com> <4E573DEF.8020503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E5825F7.6020009@jbrain.com> On 8/26/2011 1:32 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 26/08/2011 05:03, Dave Caroline wrote: >> That redish plastic is a bit of "flexible pcb" and is normally made to >> order as the copper traces are internal to its structure when >> finished, Ready made used to be available for straight wiring, we got >> ours from Gore many years ago > > In this case I don't think it is. Sometimes small pins like that are > sold mounted on Kapton tape to preserve the spacing, and make it > easier to assemble. I think that example is just pins that were sold > by the inch rather than the unit, and I suspect . I've certainly seen > things like that sold in electronics catalogues like Farnell's in the > past. I can attest that it is not a flexible PCB. The tape had no tracks on it, it was just a carrier for the pins. The interesting part (given the examples shown so far in other messages), is that the pins were header pins, not socket pins. I figured it was "by the inch", but was not sure what it was called. Others have suggested it is: http://www.advanced.com/peelstart.html Jim From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Aug 26 18:29:49 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 16:29:49 -0700 Subject: Needed in Seattle: Unibus analyzer (Guy Sotormayor's UA-11) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Paul Anderson Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 3:07 PM > On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> We are waiting for a UA-11 from Guy, but in the mean time a high-priority >> project is being held up for lack of a way to check out the Unibus on a >> PDP-11/40. >> Does anyone in the Seattle-Tacoma region have one of these that we might >> borrow until we get our own? > Hi Rich, Hi, Paul, > The KM11? I can try to find one of mine over the weekend and ship it > to you on Monday if that helps. I'm not sure were the overlays are. No, the UA-11. That's a hex-height board that pulls lots and lots of information off the backplane, with hookups for logic analyzers etc. We considered the KM11, but decided that they were insufficient for our needs. Thanks for your very kind offer, though. I really do appreciate it. Rich From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 26 19:01:10 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:01:10 -0700 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Aug 2011 at 16:37, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Seconded!! I have the space for it, but have no way to get it > here. But what good is it if you have no intention of restoring it to running condition? One might as well have a painted cardboard mockup. Pardon my density. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 26 19:35:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 20:35:45 -0400 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> On 08/26/2011 08:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Seconded!! I have the space for it, but have no way to get it >> here. > > But what good is it if you have no intention of restoring it to > running condition? One might as well have a painted cardboard > mockup. > > Pardon my density. Huh? Who said I have no intention of restoring it to running condition? I got a building with three-phase power for a reason, you know. Of course something like a 7090 isn't likely to become runnable again in the first place. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 26 19:36:01 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 01:36:01 +0100 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E583BF1.6070809@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/08/2011 18:28, Tony Duell wrote: > While it's undoubtedly true that many amateur (and professional) > photographers own a digital camera (I guess my Datacopy 300 on a PERQ > counts :-)). it undoubtedly untrue that no enthusasts still use film. I use both -- more digital than film these days, but I still like my Pentaxes and Mamiya 645s. > As for gtting prints from negatives, you can do it the same way you > always did. Plenty od enthusiasts have enlargers still which can handle a > wide range of negtive sizes. I also believe that negative/tranparency > scanners exist should you want to go the digital route. it's not my > subject at all, but I would guess that the image processing needed to > turn the scan of a negative into a postive was fairly straightforward. Most scanners that can handle film include that as part of the basic functionality, though I've come across some misguided software that believes the only form of negative is one with a colour mask. > Of course you can _make_ an enlarger too. There have been many designd > published over the years, the only really critical bit is that the > negative and printing paer are both perpendicualr to the lens optical > axis (unless you deiiberately want them not to be to correct for > 'converging verticals') We had an enlarger at school but my first attempts at making prints at home involved a cast-off 35mm slide projector with some of the lens elements re-ordered :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Aug 26 19:46:29 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 01:46:29 +0100 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E583E65.9080807@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/08/2011 18:55, Tony Duell wrote: >> about the size of Tek 465 scope but the front cover is basically a >> keyboard. Of course now you can get a pocket-sized gadget connected to >> a laptop via USB to do all sorts, using software on the laptop to >> control it and analyse the data. > > Along with an USB EPROM programmer, USB-current loop converter (does that > even esist?) and so on. I'll stick to the Ferret, Never seen a USB-20mA (for example). Everything seems to be based on voltage thresholds these days, and the shortcomings of that were brought home to me today in discussion with a building management systems installer advising that the signaling from a leak detector would not travel several hundred feet without an (expensive) booster box at each end. We're not talking about fast baud rates here, just some remote sensing device with an output consisting of voltage-free relay contacts, feeding equipment that provides a voltage to distinguish "on" this morning from "off" this afternoon. The cable resistance has an inherent voltage drop of course, so they can't guarantee that closing the relay contacts will cause the voltage to drop sufficiently at the active equipment end. A current-sensing input could deal with that no problem, but they'd never come across the concept of current-sensing. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Aug 26 19:49:16 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 20:49:16 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5812C1.70106@neurotica.com> References: <4E5812C1.70106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E583F0C.5060507@telegraphics.com.au> On 26/08/11 5:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/26/2011 01:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I know that I'd much rather have ot print a negative than try to decode >> an uncodumented digital image file. > > I'm right there with you on that. Fortunately, nearly all of them > that are actually being used anywhere are well-documented. Except for the ones that aren't! And you're assuming that some future archaeologist will have the internet! :D Digital preservation is _very hard_ (I know you know this, just worth emphasising). --T > > -Dave > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Aug 26 20:16:19 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:16:19 -0700 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <188dd58ef17a257e74f8ffc821dbaa10@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Aug 26, at 5:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Of course something like a 7090 isn't likely to become runnable > again in the first place. Are you speculating or do you know of some particular age-related flaw in said machines? Having worked on numerous items from that period (and successfully getting them working), albeit not of that scale, my initial response would be why not? Granted it is possible one could run into some fatal flaw but I would consider that the lesser likelihood. Depends on the condition of course, as it does for anything. IBM was pretty good for component quality. The CHM PDP-1 of the same era runs, etc. I'd love to have the opportunity to work on refurbishing something like a 7090. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 20:35:45 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 21:35:45 -0400 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <188dd58ef17a257e74f8ffc821dbaa10@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> <188dd58ef17a257e74f8ffc821dbaa10@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Are you speculating or do you know of some particular age-related flaw in > said machines? The transistors. There are some batches that IBM used in the SMS era that have leakage issues, like many of the ca. 1960 transistors. Combing through 50000 devices would be a challenge that never ends. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 26 20:36:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 18:36:54 -0700 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E57E7C6.16804.1EC4E94@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Aug 2011 at 20:35, Dave McGuire wrote: > Huh? Who said I have no intention of restoring it to running > condition? > > I got a building with three-phase power for a reason, you know. > > Of course something like a 7090 isn't likely to become runnable > again in the first place. Do you also have a broomstick with a magnet on the end? :) Getting the mechanicals going would be a huge challenge, though there are probably still a fair number of parts available for 729 tape drives. The unit-record equipment would be a completely different story. Having been stored in a barn, I can well imagine that the critters have been busy defecating, breeding and chewing on the innards lo these many years. The core, unless it's been carefully preserved in its oil bath, probably has rotted past usability by now. Geting one of those going could easily be a lifetime task. Do FMS or IBSYS images still exist? If you ever do get one going, I'd love to visit you! --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Aug 26 20:46:15 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 21:46:15 -0400 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4E57E7C6.16804.1EC4E94@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> <4E57E7C6.16804.1EC4E94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Do FMS or IBSYS images still exist? Yes, a decent amount of IBSYS has been found. Source, too. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 26 21:09:17 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:09:17 -0700 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E583E65.9080807@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4E583E65.9080807@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E57EF5D.6717.209F46C@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Aug 2011 at 1:46, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Never seen a USB-20mA (for example). Everything seems to be based on > voltage thresholds these days... Well, USB-to-RS422 or RS485 adapters certainly exist. I suspect that the reason that USB-to-20ma adapters are thin on the ground is that most prefer to go USB-to-RS232-to-20ma, given power requirements and the availability of RS232-to-20ma hardware. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Aug 26 22:15:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 21:15:42 -0600 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4E57E7C6.16804.1EC4E94@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> <4E57E7C6.16804.1EC4E94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4E57E7C6.16804.1EC4E94 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Do FMS or IBSYS images still exist? Dunno about FMS, but I believe IBSYS images exist that people run on the 7090 simulator in SIMH. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Aug 26 23:31:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 00:31:59 -0400 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <188dd58ef17a257e74f8ffc821dbaa10@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> <188dd58ef17a257e74f8ffc821dbaa10@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E58733F.5060401@neurotica.com> On 08/26/2011 09:16 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Of course something like a 7090 isn't likely to become runnable again >> in the first place. > > Are you speculating or do you know of some particular age-related flaw > in said machines? I'm speculating. It's a very large, very old machine. It will not be a small project, no matter how you slice it. > Having worked on numerous items from that period (and successfully > getting them working), albeit not of that scale, my initial response > would be why not? Granted it is possible one could run into some fatal > flaw but I would consider that the lesser likelihood. Depends on the > condition of course, as it does for anything. IBM was pretty good for > component quality. The CHM PDP-1 of the same era runs, etc. Yes, and it took cash, people, and time. I'm saying it's not a small project, nothing more. Is a 7090 not significantly larger (in terms of component count) than a PDP-1? > I'd love to have the opportunity to work on refurbishing something like > a 7090. You and me both! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Fri Aug 26 23:48:31 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 00:48:31 -0400 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E58771F.6010702@snarc.net> > Whats the guess this will go for ? It is rough but, still. Haven't > seen one on ebay while I've been paying attention . > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-PDP-8-minicomputer-straight-8-ASR-33-TTY-/230660204770 I'm not sure if anyone posted this, but the winning price was $8,100. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Aug 27 01:26:51 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 23:26:51 -0700 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> <188dd58ef17a257e74f8ffc821dbaa10@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <870c4215effab8cdeec420563c35705c@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Aug 26, at 6:35 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Are you speculating or do you know of some particular age-related >> flaw in >> said machines? > > The transistors. There are some batches that IBM used in the SMS era > that have leakage issues, like many of the ca. 1960 transistors. > Combing through 50000 devices would be a challenge that never ends. > The issue of the transistors did occur to me, if you are aware of problems with particular batches IBM used, that would be an issue. Speaking generally though, I'm not convinced Ge transistors are as much of a problem as they are sometimes made out to be (..kind of like electrolytic caps), although yes, they are certainly more of a problem than later/Si. As an example, the three discrete-transistor calculators I have comprise about 2000 Ge transistors. 6 of those 2000 transistors have needed replacement (3 out of over 5000 diodes have also been replaced). These are from 1966-68 so perhaps a few years later than a 7090, with the potential for some manufacturing improvements, but probably of a lower grade than IBM used. The CHM writeup on the PDP-1 states "To the team's surprise, the PDP-1 worked almost perfectly right away", after the power supplies were done. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 27 10:48:25 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:48:25 -0700 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4E58733F.5060401@neurotica.com> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> <188dd58ef17a257e74f8ffc821dbaa10@cs.ubc.ca> <4E58733F.5060401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5911C9.6030005@bitsavers.org> On 8/26/11 9:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes, and it took cash, people, and time. I'm saying it's not a small project, nothing more. After purchase cost, shipping, and cost of restoration, I would guess restoring that 7090 would be almost seven figures. They are NOT giving the machine away, and it will be several hundred thousand dollars to properly crate and ship it, based on what it cost CHM to have several containers professionally packed and shipped from Germany to California. >Is a 7090 not significantly larger (in terms of component count) than a PDP-1? It is at least 20x larger. Paul Pierce's 7094 fills a large room. http://www.piercefuller.com/collect/ibm7094.jpg From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Aug 27 10:49:00 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S-100 6502 CPU board prototype Message-ID: <1314460140.8381.YahooMailClassic@web180201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, at the N8VEM project we were working on an S-100 6502 CPU board. It was built as a wire wrapped prototype and the design has been shown to work. Since then, we've designed a PCB and have some prototype boards. Most of those have already been sent to builders. However due to some injuries and other unfortunate events, those projects are on hold indefinitely. I still have one S-100 6502 CPU prototype board left. I have high confidence in this design that it will boot with little or no modifications. If we could get a volunteer to build and test this board, then I could get additional PCBs for other S-100 builders. However, without some knowledge of whether the actual PCB really works, I am hesitant to release it quite yet. If you are an experienced builder, familiar with S-100, and would like to volunteer to build and test this prototype PCB, I will send it to you at no charge. All we really need for confirmation is that the S-100 6502 CPU board can boot with a basic monitor ROM. There is some sample code available for a notional S-100 6502 CPU board boot ROM. Basically, this project is stalled at its very last step and I would like someone to volunteer to build and test the prototype for confirmation of the design. Certainly this is not for everyone but if you would be willing to help out I would greatly appreciate it. Please contact me by email. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 27 10:49:04 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:49:04 -0700 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4E58771F.6010702@snarc.net> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> <4E58771F.6010702@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4E5911F0.8040606@bitsavers.org> On 8/26/11 9:48 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I'm not sure if anyone posted this, but the winning price was $8,100. > It was on the LCM wish list. Did they get it? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Aug 27 10:50:34 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 08:50:34 -0700 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <870c4215effab8cdeec420563c35705c@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> <188dd58ef17a257e74f8ffc821dbaa10@cs.ubc.ca> <870c4215effab8cdeec420563c35705c@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4E59124A.5090604@bitsavers.org> On 8/26/11 11:26 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Speaking generally though, I'm not convinced Ge transistors are as much of a problem as they are sometimes made out to be They have been a problem on the 1401 restoration. There is some talk of this on the 1401 web page. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 12:24:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:24:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Printing replacement Alps plotter motor pinion gears In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 26, 11 03:35:34 pm Message-ID: > > and have perhaps 10 or 12 leaves (teeth to the rest of you ;-)) > > Something like that, yes. I don't recall the precise number and can't No, that was from memeory. Whatever you do, don't make one based on that guess :-) > find the previous discussion threads that have happened on this list > over the years. > > I realize that to a trained machinist with the right tools, cutting > gears is just another day on the job. I am very much a novice when it There are basically 2 ways to cut such a pinion. The first used s a special milling cutter which is the shape of the cabe ebtween the teeth. You turn a piece of rod the overall diamater of the gear in a ltathe, and then put that rond in a dificing head. Using the milling cutter you cut one of the inter-tooth gaps, then using the dividning head you turn the rod throug the appropraite angle (1/12th of a revolution if there are 12 teeth, etc), then cut the next gap and so on. The problems are that the milling cuttter is strictly only correct for one particular pitch _and number of teeth_ For geears of the same pitch -- that is ons that you would mesh together, the inter-tooth gap does change as the number of teeth changes. Normally, an apporximation is made, the cutters some in sets of 8, ech oovering a range of numbers of teeth. THese cutters are not cheap either. I've been quoted over \pounds 50.00 for one. No, not a set of 8, one cutter. On something this small, you would have to take very light cuts to avoid bending the workpiece (the rod you're making itn oa pinion), which would slow things down a bit. The second way is claled 'hobbinh'. Here the cutter is called a 'hob', and is a bit like a thread-cutting tap. It is rotated, the workpiece is also rothated at the right speed to cut the apporirate number of teeth [1]and the 2 a brought together. Think of it as being a bit like a worm-and-wheel drive wit hthe 'worm' actually cutting teeth in the wheel. This needs more specialised equipment (a hobbing machine is only used for gear cutting wheras a lathe. mill and dividing head have many other uses), but the greatadvantag is that one hob cuts all gears of a given pitch no matter the number of teeth, [1] Ol;der hobbing machines did this mechanically usinga gearbox with selectable rations (ofthen by using changewheels that you haf to fit the right comibnation of). There have been designs using a steppre motor to roate the workpiece contoller by a shaft encoder on the hob spindle and some suitable electroncis. I really must have a go at making one... > through Shapeways. Because of the strictly functional nature of the > part, there should be no worries of trademark or other IP > infringement, to head that discussion off. I can't see how there could possibly be legal problems for soemthing like this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 12:33:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:33:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <20110826223948.90cdb956.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Aug 26, 11 10:39:48 pm Message-ID: > Sorry, I confused this. It is a HP45. It's a shame. I pulled this fine > calculator out of a dumpster. The one and only defect was a leaked It would be much more of a shame if it hadn't been rescued... > battery pack. I just removed the battery pack and use it with the wall > wart... YEs, the 'c;assic series' mpdels _without a card reader_ -- that is the 35, 45, 55, 70 and 80 cna be run safely from the PSU without a battery pack. The PSU has 2 outputs, a conmstant votlage 34.2V rail to run the logic and a constant current output to charge th NiCd battery. When the charager is not plugged in, a metal contact in the calcualtor shorts the appropraiute pins of the conenctor together to connect the battery to the logic. However, the HP65 and the hP67 (Whcih is not strictly a clasisc series machine, despite the case, it has a much later processor chip) run the card reader sense amplifier IC striaght off the battery. You cna ddamge this IC (and it's HP custom of course) if you connect the chreger to those machines without a good battery fitted. The HP67 card reader sense amplidier IC was supposed to have been redesigned otwithstand this, but I am not risking it!., And never connect an HP2xC or an HP3xC or an HP95C (but you won't have one of those!) to the chrger without a good batter fitted. You will damage ICs. Gettign back to the HP45, I assume you've found the stopwatch. I cna't rememebr the key seqeucne (it's something like RCL then 7,8,CHS all held down together, you may need to try several times). It's not very accurate becasue the master clock is based on an LC circuit. The HP55 (programmable, and with a docuemated stopwatch mode) was the only classic-seires HP calculator to use a crystla clock. The anode driver chip (which includes the clock generator) is the same in all the classics, so you can fit a crystal to the HP45 if you really want to. Be warend it's a really unusual freqeuncy. If you're tempted to try it, contact Dave Colver (treasurer at hpcc.org) and ask about schematics, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 12:37:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:37:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5812C1.70106@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 26, 11 05:40:17 pm Message-ID: > > On 08/26/2011 01:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I know that I'd much rather have ot print a negative than try to decode > > an uncodumented digital image file. > > I'm right there with you on that. Fortunately, nearly all of them > that are actually being used anywhere are well-documented. I suspect the docuemantion for the PERQ image processing software and file formats is long gone, but... Anyway, they may be docuemnted _now_ but in 100 eyars time (or whatever) it may not even be obviosu that it is an image file. If you take a film or glass plate negative it's clear rto anyone (with reasonable eyesight) that there is an image on it. It's also possible, jsut byu loking at it to see roughtly what that image is, and that the intensities are inverted. So you try the obviuos things to get the image back. But given a digital image file, it's not obvious from looking at the bytes that it even is an image, let alone how to decode it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 12:39:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:39:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: <4E5812EC.2040604@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 26, 11 05:41:00 pm Message-ID: > Agree 100% here. But I'm not going to carry one of my precious HP > calcs with me everywhere I go. They're getting harder and harder to > replace! I know quite a few people who have HP12Cs, even thought thye have no use for (or even understnd) the financial functions. Point is, the 12C is avaialble (still), and it makes an ideal RPN 4-banger that you can replave if somebodye makes off with it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 12:42:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:42:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Printing replacement Alps plotter motor pinion gears In-Reply-To: <4E5813B3.3080602@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Aug 26, 11 10:44:19 pm Message-ID: > ... But what I'd REALLY be interested in are a few of those blasted > pens! I can probably machine some adapters and so forth on the lathe, > but I've never -- not even once -- seen a pen refill which was short > enough to fit in the holder. I wonde if you could cut down a longrefil and remove a little of the ink frm the cut end so it doesn't all leak out. And put that in a home-made adapter. > > Though that said, if Laszlo Biro managed to make a ballpoint pen in > 1938, it should be possible to produce something similar with modern > machine tools. Getting the viscosity of the ink 'just right' might be a > bit of a pig though. I wondef if you culd dismantle one of the old pnes non-destructively and refil it with ink. That would give you the bllpoint part. Of course it doesn't help in gettign thr right viscosity of ink. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 12:49:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:49:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E583E65.9080807@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Aug 27, 11 01:46:29 am Message-ID: > Never seen a USB-20mA (for example). Everything seems to be based on > voltage thresholds these days, and the shortcomings of that were brought Is it? I've seen analogue transducers with a 4-20mA analogue output (i.e. a current source output) very recently. I assume they still exist. > home to me today in discussion with a building management systems > installer advising that the signaling from a leak detector would not > travel several hundred feet without an (expensive) booster box at each > end. We're not talking about fast baud rates here, just some remote > sensing device with an output consisting of voltage-free relay contacts, > feeding equipment that provides a voltage to distinguish "on" this > morning from "off" this afternoon. The cable resistance has an inherent > voltage drop of course, so they can't guarantee that closing the relay > contacts will cause the voltage to drop sufficiently at the active > equipment end. A current-sensing input could deal with that no problem, > but they'd never come across the concept of current-sensing. ARGH!. But that's what you get nowadays. So-called 'engineers' who belive problems are solved by sticking complex modules toghter and who don't (and many can't) really think about the probkem. I've see it all too often. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 27 12:52:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:52:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E57EF5D.6717.209F46C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 26, 11 07:09:17 pm Message-ID: > > Well, USB-to-RS422 or RS485 adapters certainly exist. I suspect that > the reason that USB-to-20ma adapters are thin on the ground is that > most prefer to go USB-to-RS232-to-20ma, given power requirements and > the availability of RS232-to-20ma hardware. The more bits you need to carry around with you, the more chansce that hte essential bit is left on your workbench, or left, forgootne and some remote site.... -tony From evan at snarc.net Sat Aug 27 12:59:18 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 13:59:18 -0400 Subject: Straight 8 on ebay In-Reply-To: <4E5911F0.8040606@bitsavers.org> References: <1313197426.51055.YahooMailClassic@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E4746C8.5080301@gmail.com> <4E58771F.6010702@snarc.net> <4E5911F0.8040606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E593076.1070905@snarc.net> >> I'm not sure if anyone posted this, but the winning price was $8,100. >> > > It was on the LCM wish list. Did they get it? Apparently not: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=230660204770&aid=h***a&eu=SNoIkPDjXMHOI3wPAHdODYJT5RdZRcFY&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink I'm sure they want one in better condition. Such as ours here in MARCH. Which isn't for sale. :) From evan at snarc.net Sat Aug 27 13:51:08 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:51:08 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs Message-ID: <4E593C9C.10309@snarc.net> Now is a good time for a Steve Jobs thread. What do you guys think --- how will his resignation impact Apple? PS - TMZ.com posted photos of him allegedly taken in the past few days. I urge everyone to NOT link to the pictures as they show a morbidly ill person. Anybody who really wants to see can go look manually. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 14:18:58 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:18:58 -0500 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: <4E583E65.9080807@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E583E65.9080807@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E594322.4080100@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Everything seems to be based on > voltage thresholds these days, and the shortcomings of that were brought > home to me today in discussion with a building management systems > installer advising that the signaling from a leak detector would not > travel several hundred feet without an (expensive) booster box at each > end. We're not talking about fast baud rates here, just some remote > sensing device with an output consisting of voltage-free relay contacts, > feeding equipment that provides a voltage to distinguish "on" this > morning from "off" this afternoon. Weird... so why are the boosters so expensive? Just because they need battery back-up in the event of a power failure? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 27 14:44:44 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 13:44:44 -0600 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: <4E593C9C.10309@snarc.net> References: <4E593C9C.10309@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4E59492C.5080607@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/27/2011 12:51 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Now is a good time for a Steve Jobs thread. > > What do you guys think --- how will his resignation impact Apple? Nothing ... It is a PC shop anyhow that makes other stuff... > PS - TMZ.com posted photos of him allegedly taken in the past few days. > I urge everyone to NOT link to the pictures as they show a morbidly ill > person. Anybody who really wants to see can go look manually. > I wonder if a guy like that can retire, with things on the go all the time. Ben. From evan at snarc.net Sat Aug 27 14:48:11 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 15:48:11 -0400 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: <4E593C9C.10309@snarc.net> References: <4E593C9C.10309@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4E5949FB.6050809@snarc.net> > Now is a good time for a Steve Jobs thread. > > What do you guys think --- how will his resignation impact Apple? > > PS - TMZ.com posted photos of him allegedly taken in the past few days Big shocker: TMZ used fake pictures. Sorry for not realizing this sooner. But anyway, what do we all think of Jobs' stepping down? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Aug 27 14:51:56 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 12:51:56 -0700 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: <4E593C9C.10309@snarc.net> References: <4E593C9C.10309@snarc.net> Message-ID: At 2:51 PM -0400 8/27/11, Evan Koblentz wrote: >Now is a good time for a Steve Jobs thread. > >What do you guys think --- how will his resignation impact Apple? > >PS - TMZ.com posted photos of him allegedly taken in the past few >days. I urge everyone to NOT link to the pictures as they show a >morbidly ill person. Anybody who really wants to see can go look >manually. While there are things I haven't liked about him, there is no denying his drive, his vision, or the positive impact he's had on Apple since his return. He's pretty much known what's coming for several years, and my hope is that he's taken steps to ensure that his legacy (Apple) survives his death. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Aug 27 14:53:31 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:53:31 +0200 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E5812C1.70106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110827215331.367f1e23.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 27 Aug 2011 18:37:35 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Anyway, they may be docuemnted _now_ but in 100 eyars time (or whatever) > it may not even be obviosu that it is an image file. Thats why you need a Digital Rosetta Stone. E.G. store a description of the file format in plain ASCII along the image file. You also may include source code to read / decode the image to a plain bitmap. Even if there isn't a compiler for that ancient language, a human can read, understand and translate the algorithm from an old to a new programming language. Additionally: Keep in mind that proper digital archiving involves converting from old to new file formats. (This rules out lossy compression technics for obvious reasons.) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 27 15:26:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:26:57 -0400 Subject: What Your Old Graphing Calculator Says About Technology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E595311.4080909@neurotica.com> On 08/27/2011 01:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Agree 100% here. But I'm not going to carry one of my precious HP >> calcs with me everywhere I go. They're getting harder and harder to >> replace! > > I know quite a few people who have HP12Cs, even thought thye have no use > for (or even understnd) the financial functions. Point is, the 12C is > avaialble (still), and it makes an ideal RPN 4-banger that you can > replave if somebodye makes off with it. Yeah but it's not my beloved 28S or 48SX! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 27 15:30:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:30:07 -0400 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5953CF.6090803@neurotica.com> On 08/27/2011 01:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Never seen a USB-20mA (for example). Everything seems to be based on >> voltage thresholds these days, and the shortcomings of that were brought > > Is it? I've seen analogue transducers with a 4-20mA analogue output (i.e. > a current source output) very recently. I assume they still exist. Indeed, they're all over the place in industrial control environments. >> home to me today in discussion with a building management systems >> installer advising that the signaling from a leak detector would not >> travel several hundred feet without an (expensive) booster box at each >> end. We're not talking about fast baud rates here, just some remote >> sensing device with an output consisting of voltage-free relay contacts, >> feeding equipment that provides a voltage to distinguish "on" this >> morning from "off" this afternoon. The cable resistance has an inherent >> voltage drop of course, so they can't guarantee that closing the relay >> contacts will cause the voltage to drop sufficiently at the active >> equipment end. A current-sensing input could deal with that no problem, >> but they'd never come across the concept of current-sensing. > > ARGH!. But that's what you get nowadays. So-called 'engineers' who belive > problems are solved by sticking complex modules toghter and who don't > (and many can't) really think about the probkem. I've see it all too > often. Yep. It's prevalent in the software world as well. Clicking-and-drooling while mired in the eye-candy interface of an IDE, gluing bits of other people's *real* code together and clicking "build my program", without ever really understanding how anything works. Google's databases are chock full of archived forum posts containing unbelievably stupid questions from these sorts of "programmers". Idiots. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 27 15:36:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 16:36:58 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E59556A.1080808@neurotica.com> On 08/27/2011 01:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I know that I'd much rather have ot print a negative than try to decode >>> an uncodumented digital image file. >> >> I'm right there with you on that. Fortunately, nearly all of them >> that are actually being used anywhere are well-documented. > > I suspect the docuemantion for the PERQ image processing software and > file formats is long gone, but... Would you consider that to be a format in which large volumes of images are stored today? ;) > Anyway, they may be docuemnted _now_ but in 100 eyars time (or whatever) > it may not even be obviosu that it is an image file. If you take a film > or glass plate negative it's clear rto anyone (with reasonable eyesight) > that there is an image on it. It's also possible, jsut byu loking at it > to see roughtly what that image is, and that the intensities are > inverted. So you try the obviuos things to get the image back. > > But given a digital image file, it's not obvious from looking at the > bytes that it even is an image, let alone how to decode it. Too true. But I think society is long past the point where information, at least most of it, just disappears from generation to generation. Of course a lot of people will argue that, pointing out obscure things which have been lost, or are at risk of being lost due to their obscurity, but I'm talking about things like...well, the JFIF image format. (what is commonly yet erroneously called "JPEG") Even old, proprietary, vendor-specific formats like BMP are trivial to find documentation for. Some formats have even survived fruitless, misguided attempts to make a quick buck by teams of lawyers at short-sighted corporations run by stupid people (GIF). Thanks to efforts like Bitsavers, technical documentation is at nowhere near the level of risk it was even as recently as a decade ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Aug 27 15:57:53 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 08:57:53 +1200 Subject: Steve Jobs References: <4E593C9C.10309@snarc.net> Message-ID: I regard Steve Jobs as an icon who contributed much to the "consumerisation" of computer technologies and computer-based services. However, he was not without flaws and (from what I've read) in the early-mid 1980s his unbending will and extreme self-belief lead to mistakes which almost undid Apple. Either way, the man is very ill and I wish him all the best in that battle. Tez From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Aug 27 16:23:00 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:23:00 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E59556A.1080808@neurotica.com> References: <4E59556A.1080808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E596034.3040508@telegraphics.com.au> On 27/08/11 4:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ... I think society is long past the point where > information, at least most of it, just disappears from generation to > generation. There are many ways it can disappear, and still does. As soon as a book is removed from public libraries, and is out of print, it's effectively gone. The mitigating factor are secondary markets like ABE Books - but that only goes so far, and assumes you have a budget to find something. > > Of course a lot of people will argue that, pointing out obscure things > which have been lost, or are at risk of being lost due to their > obscurity, but I'm talking about things like...well, the JFIF image > format. (what is commonly yet erroneously called "JPEG") Certain things are so ubiquitous we can dismiss them, yes. > > Even old, proprietary, vendor-specific formats like BMP are trivial to > find documentation for. *Some* are trivial. Some are difficult. And others are impossible, as I know from past searches. > Some formats have even survived fruitless, > misguided attempts to make a quick buck by teams of lawyers at > short-sighted corporations run by stupid people (GIF). > > Thanks to efforts like Bitsavers, technical documentation is at > nowhere near the level of risk it was even as recently as a decade ago. Why do you think Bitsavers is permanent? ;-) --T > > -Dave > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Aug 27 16:24:16 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:24:16 -0400 Subject: Wall Street Journal has an article about Paul Allen's Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <870c4215effab8cdeec420563c35705c@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1314269984.19856.YahooMailNeo@web113515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E580406.4050705@neurotica.com> <4E57D156.28901.194AA4C@cclist.sydex.com> <4E583BE1.1060807@neurotica.com> <188dd58ef17a257e74f8ffc821dbaa10@cs.ubc.ca> <870c4215effab8cdeec420563c35705c@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Speaking generally though, I'm not convinced Ge transistors are as much of a > problem as they are sometimes made out to be (..kind of like electrolytic > caps), although yes, they are certainly more of a problem than later/Si. > > As an example, the three discrete-transistor calculators I have comprise > about 2000 Ge transistors. 6 of those 2000 transistors have needed > replacement (3 out of over 5000 diodes have also been replaced). These are > from 1966-68 so perhaps a few years later than a 7090, with the potential > for some manufacturing improvements, Those few years made quite a difference. Even though transistors were being mass produced as far back as 1952 or so (and I am stretching the definition of "mass"), they still really sort of sucked until the late 1950s. The transistors in the SMS in a 7090 are really only a couple of years into the "decent stuff". Your devices from the mid/late 60s are well past that. As for my 50000 transistor count, pulled from the IBM website - I think that is for the CPU only. For a whole system I suspect 70000 is more like it. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Aug 27 16:31:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:31:54 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E596034.3040508@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E59556A.1080808@neurotica.com> <4E596034.3040508@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E59624A.2010905@neurotica.com> On 08/27/2011 05:23 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> ... I think society is long past the point where >> information, at least most of it, just disappears from generation to >> generation. > > There are many ways it can disappear, and still does. As soon as a book > is removed from public libraries, and is out of print, it's effectively > gone. The mitigating factor are secondary markets like ABE Books - but > that only goes so far, and assumes you have a budget to find something. Of course. (and I knew someone was going to pipe up...this group is WAY too anal ;)) >> Of course a lot of people will argue that, pointing out obscure things >> which have been lost, or are at risk of being lost due to their >> obscurity, but I'm talking about things like...well, the JFIF image >> format. (what is commonly yet erroneously called "JPEG") > > Certain things are so ubiquitous we can dismiss them, yes. And those things are the ones I'm talking about. We will never lose the spec for the JFIF file format because the whole world uses it. We will also never lose (assuming we have it now) the PERQ image file format because there are people like us around. Yes, there are fringe cases, and some information WILL be lost. But do you honestly think it's the same percentage as it was, say, in 1960? Or even 1980? Not even close. THAT is my point. >> Even old, proprietary, vendor-specific formats like BMP are trivial to >> find documentation for. > > *Some* are trivial. Some are difficult. And others are impossible, as I > know from past searches. Yes. There are always exceptions and fringe cases. >> Some formats have even survived fruitless, >> misguided attempts to make a quick buck by teams of lawyers at >> short-sighted corporations run by stupid people (GIF). >> >> Thanks to efforts like Bitsavers, technical documentation is at >> nowhere near the level of risk it was even as recently as a decade ago. > > Why do you think Bitsavers is permanent? ;-) Because we will make it so, and pass it on to future generations. Bulk replication of data like that is trivial now. It wasn't just a few short years ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spedraja at ono.com Sat Aug 27 17:33:02 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 00:33:02 +0200 Subject: Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: References: <4E593C9C.10309@snarc.net> Message-ID: When I see him and Bill Gates, now and then... I can't avoid to have in my mind at the same time the end of the seventies, when I began with computing, and our actual times. And compare. Steve Jobs, its history, insight and influence are unique. Sergio 2011/8/27 terry stewart > I regard Steve Jobs as an icon who contributed much to the > "consumerisation" of computer technologies and computer-based services. > However, he was not without flaws and (from what I've read) in the > early-mid 1980s his unbending will and extreme self-belief lead to mistakes > which almost undid Apple. > > Either way, the man is very ill and I wish him all the best in that battle. > > Tez > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Aug 27 18:53:15 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 19:53:15 -0400 Subject: IBM plexiglass printer stand In-Reply-To: <4E595311.4080909@neurotica.com> References: <4E595311.4080909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <89DA23EE-688F-42B9-9B38-7EE03A2AB29B@atarimuseum.com> Anyone have any of these available? They were the original smoke brown plexiglas printer stands that IBM made available when the IBM pc first came out Curt From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 28 12:46:14 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 10:46:14 -0700 Subject: AT&T 6300/Olivetti M24 question In-Reply-To: <4DE6EA26.2050702@bitsavers.org> References: <4DE6EA26.2050702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E5A1C76.15024.5678D7@cclist.sydex.com> Does anyone have an Olivetti M24 or AT&T PC 6300 with the P8 version display card close at hand? The one I have has the display card very thorougly disabled (no I/O or memory space accessible) by the setting of a couple of jumpers and a jumper plug at position 5H on the display card. This is a 20-pin DIP socket and looks suspiciously similar to the 14 pin jumper plugr used to disable the P4 display card. Can anyone tell me what's supposed to be at this position? Since it's a 20 pin DIP, it could be a something simple such as an LS244, or (groan) it could be a PAL. On the P4, it's an LS00, but that's clearly not the case here. I have schematics for the P2 board, but not the P8. If all else fails, I'll take the board out and try to figure things out the hard way, but I'd rather get the information the easy way. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 28 11:45:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 17:45:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E59624A.2010905@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 27, 11 05:31:54 pm Message-ID: > And those things are the ones I'm talking about. We will never lose > the spec for the JFIF file format because the whole world uses it. We > will also never lose (assuming we have it now) the PERQ image file > format because there are people like us around. I don;t beleive any of us are immortal, and nor are the people who get our collections when we pass away. It's always possible that at some point in the not-too-distant future one of said nth-generation inheritors says 'This pinoe of paper is worthless', and then some file format (or whateer) is lost forever. Incidentalyl, I don;t believe the PERQ imaging file format has survived. However, I think the sources to the image processing software exist, so it should be possible to work it out. > Yes, there are fringe cases, and some information WILL be lost. But > do you honestly think it's the same percentage as it was, say, in 1960? > Or even 1980? Not even close. THAT is my point. > > >> Even old, proprietary, vendor-specific formats like BMP are trivial to > >> find documentation for. > > > > *Some* are trivial. Some are difficult. And others are impossible, as I > > know from past searches. However, to get back to the original discuasion, I don't believer thare has ever been an 'undocumented photographic negative format' :-). A photographic negatice, whether the base is a glass plate, plastic or paper, is recognisable for what it is, and the methods of producing a useable image are pretty obvious in all cases. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 28 13:23:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 19:23:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: AT&T 6300/Olivetti M24 question In-Reply-To: <4E5A1C76.15024.5678D7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 28, 11 10:46:14 am Message-ID: > Can anyone tell me what's supposed to be at this position? Since > it's a 20 pin DIP, it could be a something simple such as an LS244, > or (groan) it could be a PAL. On the P4, it's an LS00, but that's > clearly not the case here. I don;t have the schematics, but my first guss, unfortunately, would be a combinatorial PAL acting as a decoder for some of the address lines (and manybe other signals). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 28 14:53:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 15:53:40 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> On 08/28/2011 12:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> And those things are the ones I'm talking about. We will never lose >> the spec for the JFIF file format because the whole world uses it. We >> will also never lose (assuming we have it now) the PERQ image file >> format because there are people like us around. > > I don;t beleive any of us are immortal, and nor are the people who get > our collections when we pass away. It's always possible that at some > point in the not-too-distant future one of said nth-generation inheritors > says 'This pinoe of paper is worthless', and then some file format (or > whateer) is lost forever. Good heavens. Do you really think it takes a bunch of hobbyists maintaining obscure information to preserve, say, the spec for GIF, JFIF, and PNG? In the case of file formats that actually get used NOW, hell, those specs are printed in dozens of books by several different publishers in many different languages, and sold by the thousands. And that's not even counting digital archives. This is a non-problem. Of course, as people here love to do, it's certainly possible to point out unbelievably obscure stuff (ahem, Perq) but we were talking about mainstream image formats. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 28 15:44:34 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 16:44:34 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/08/11 3:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/28/2011 12:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> And those things are the ones I'm talking about. We will never lose >>> the spec for the JFIF file format because the whole world uses it. We >>> will also never lose (assuming we have it now) the PERQ image file >>> format because there are people like us around. >> >> I don;t beleive any of us are immortal, and nor are the people who get >> our collections when we pass away. It's always possible that at some >> point in the not-too-distant future one of said nth-generation inheritors >> says 'This pinoe of paper is worthless', and then some file format (or >> whateer) is lost forever. > > Good heavens. Do you really think it takes a bunch of hobbyists > maintaining obscure information to preserve, say, the spec for GIF, > JFIF, and PNG? These are terrible examples and illuminate very little. Why do people insist on using them? > In the case of file formats that actually get used NOW, > hell, those specs are printed in dozens of books by several different > publishers in many different languages, and sold by the thousands. And > that's not even counting digital archives. That's simply not true. Many formats are proprietary. Even extensions and codecs used with extensible "open" formats are frequently proprietary (e.g. TIFF). One *extremely* common format (PSD) is very poorly documented. The vast majority (> 90%) of what PSD is supposed to represent is not documented at all. Yet data that cost billions of dollars to create rests in it. There are countless other examples, many of which will in the future block access to much public (taxpayer owned) data. TL;DR: Just because something is ubiquitously used today does NOT mean the knowledge to decode it is known outside tiny, doomed cabals. --Toby > > This is a non-problem. > > Of course, as people here love to do, it's certainly possible to point > out unbelievably obscure stuff (ahem, Perq) but we were talking about > mainstream image formats. > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 28 15:44:59 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 16:44:59 -0400 Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5AA8CB.9070602@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/08/11 3:53 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/28/2011 12:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> And those things are the ones I'm talking about. We will never lose >>> the spec for the JFIF file format because the whole world uses it. We >>> will also never lose (assuming we have it now) the PERQ image file >>> format because there are people like us around. >> >> I don;t beleive any of us are immortal, and nor are the people who get >> our collections when we pass away. It's always possible that at some >> point in the not-too-distant future one of said nth-generation inheritors >> says 'This pinoe of paper is worthless', and then some file format (or >> whateer) is lost forever. > > Good heavens. Do you really think it takes a bunch of hobbyists > maintaining obscure information to preserve, say, the spec for GIF, > JFIF, and PNG? These are terrible examples and illuminate very little. Why do people insist on using them? > In the case of file formats that actually get used NOW, > hell, those specs are printed in dozens of books by several different > publishers in many different languages, and sold by the thousands. And > that's not even counting digital archives. That's simply not true. Many formats are proprietary. Even extensions and codecs used with extensible "open" formats are frequently proprietary (e.g. TIFF). One *extremely* common format (PSD) is very poorly documented. The vast majority (> 90%) of what PSD is supposed to represent is not documented at all. Yet data that cost billions of dollars to create rests in it. There are countless other examples, many of which will in the future block access to much public (taxpayer owned) data. TL;DR: Just because something is ubiquitously used today does NOT mean the knowledge to decode it is known outside tiny, doomed cabals. --Toby > > This is a non-problem. > > Of course, as people here love to do, it's certainly possible to point > out unbelievably obscure stuff (ahem, Perq) but we were talking about > mainstream image formats. > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 28 16:05:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 17:05:47 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> On 08/28/2011 04:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> And those things are the ones I'm talking about. We will never lose >>>> the spec for the JFIF file format because the whole world uses it. We >>>> will also never lose (assuming we have it now) the PERQ image file >>>> format because there are people like us around. >>> >>> I don;t beleive any of us are immortal, and nor are the people who get >>> our collections when we pass away. It's always possible that at some >>> point in the not-too-distant future one of said nth-generation inheritors >>> says 'This pinoe of paper is worthless', and then some file format (or >>> whateer) is lost forever. >> >> Good heavens. Do you really think it takes a bunch of hobbyists >> maintaining obscure information to preserve, say, the spec for GIF, >> JFIF, and PNG? > > These are terrible examples and illuminate very little. Why do people > insist on using them? As examples in this discussion? Because we were talking about common image formats, and someone asserted that all image formats are evil because the specs for everything will be lost. As such, with the vast, VAST majority of images in the world today being in one of those formats, it is actually an excellent example. >> In the case of file formats that actually get used NOW, >> hell, those specs are printed in dozens of books by several different >> publishers in many different languages, and sold by the thousands. And >> that's not even counting digital archives. > > That's simply not true. Many formats are proprietary. Formats that people actually USE? No. Sure, there ARE some proprietary formats out there, and I'm sure there are some poor saps who use them from time to time. Your insistence that these obscure cases are somehow the norm is amusing. For the formats that actually get used, unless we undergo some sort of a friggin' holocaust or something, said documentation will always be available. And even if we DO have some sort of a holocaust, I'm sure somewhere there will be at least ONE remaining copy of one of the hundreds of thousands of books printed on the subject. Even vertical-market imaging formats used in the world of astronomy, physics, and medicine are (mostly) standardized and documented these days. Stop with the doom-saying. > Even extensions > and codecs used with extensible "open" formats are frequently > proprietary (e.g. TIFF). Yes. And the 10% of the world that uses TIFF (as nice a format as it is) has maybe 10% of THAT using proprietary extensions. People that use them should probably move to a documented format. > One *extremely* common format (PSD) is very poorly documented. The vast > majority (> 90%) of what PSD is supposed to represent is not documented > at all. Yet data that cost billions of dollars to create rests in it. Gee, I open PSD files in GIMP all day long, works just fine here. Maybe there are some weird features that won't be properly decoded, but I can SEE THE DAMN IMAGE just fine, and isn't that the point, in the context in which we're discussing this? But even ignoring that...your supposed all-destructive holocaust is going to destroy EVERY REMAINING COPY of Adobe Photoshop, along with EVERY COMPUTER capable of running it? > TL;DR: Just because something is ubiquitously used today does NOT mean > the knowledge to decode it is known outside tiny, doomed cabals. This is just ludicrous. Some peoples' obsession with pointing out obscure corner cases and insisting that they are somehow the norm is entertaining at first, but very quickly becomes old. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 16:05:55 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 17:05:55 -0400 Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5AA8CB.9070602@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8CB.9070602@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > One *extremely* common format (PSD) is very poorly documented. The vast > majority (> 90%) of what PSD is supposed to represent is not documented > at all. Yet data that cost billions of dollars to create rests in it. http://www.adobe.com/devnet-apps/photoshop/fileformatashtml/ I am curious - what is not documented? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 28 16:24:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:24:04 -0700 Subject: AT&T 6300/Olivetti M24 question In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A1C76.15024.5678D7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 28, 11 10:46:14 am, Message-ID: <4E5A4F84.17966.11DE91D@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Aug 2011 at 19:23, Tony Duell wrote: > I don;t have the schematics, but my first guss, unfortunately, would > be a combinatorial PAL acting as a decoder for some of the address > lines (and manybe other signals). I hope you're wrong. This is a strange 6300. The keyboard controller's been replaced with a "piggyback" PCB with a TMS7000 microcontroller and an EPROM and some glue. There's a small card that plugs into one of the secondary (short green) slot connectors on the bus converter board that has nothing but an 4Kbit 82S147 PROM on it. I don't know the reason for either of those and can't find any documentation on them. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Aug 28 16:56:35 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 14:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > TL;DR: Just because something is ubiquitously used today does NOT mean ^^^^^ This drives me up the wall. I don't care what the acronym stands for, it MEANS, "I'm intellectually lazy and cannot be bothered with reading further." If you don't like the point someone is trying to make, either ignore it or argue it, don't go all emo-douchebag about it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 28 17:04:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:04:02 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5ABB52.80302@neurotica.com> On 08/28/2011 05:56 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> TL;DR: Just because something is ubiquitously used today does NOT mean > ^^^^^ > > This drives me up the wall. I don't care what the acronym stands for, it > MEANS, "I'm intellectually lazy and cannot be bothered with reading > further." > > If you don't like the point someone is trying to make, either ignore it > or argue it, don't go all emo-douchebag about it. I didn't even know what "TL;DR" meant, so I ignored it. Abbreviating for the sake of abbreviating is childish. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 28 17:40:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 15:40:50 -0700 Subject: AT&T 6300/Olivetti M24 question In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A1C76.15024.5678D7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 28, 11 10:46:14 am, Message-ID: <4E5A6182.19948.1642F59@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Aug 2011 at 19:23, Tony Duell wrote: > I don;t have the schematics, but my first guss, unfortunately, would > be a combinatorial PAL acting as a decoder for some of the address > lines (and manybe other signals). Pulling the display cover plate off and doing a little circuit tracing shows that this IC drives various selects and also CAS for the display DRAM (4x4416).. In fact, it looks as if the HAL10L8 at position 5G on the P2 revision of the display controller is exactly the same part. So, without the real thing, it'd be a matter of trying to synthesize a replacement. Not worth the effort for me. I'll leave it to Dave. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 28 17:45:58 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:45:58 -0400 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5AC526.5050703@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/08/11 5:56 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> TL;DR: Just because something is ubiquitously used today does NOT mean > ^^^^^ > > This drives me up the wall. I don't care what the acronym stands for, > it MEANS, "I'm intellectually lazy and cannot be bothered with reading > further." Um, no, it doesn't mean that at all. It means I decided to add a pr?cis. Also note that I added it _at the bottom_, after the long version of _my own argument_. It's not clear how I would try to make a point about my own "intellectual laziness" by using TL;DR. > > If you don't like the point someone is trying to make, either ignore it > or argue it, don't go all emo-douchebag about it. Well, since *I* was making the point in long form, above the aforementioned pr?cis, what you wrote doesn't make any sense. --Toby > > g. > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 28 17:52:43 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:52:43 -0400 Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8CB.9070602@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5AC6BB.1070608@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/08/11 5:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> One *extremely* common format (PSD) is very poorly documented. The vast >> majority (> 90%) of what PSD is supposed to represent is not documented >> at all. Yet data that cost billions of dollars to create rests in it. > > http://www.adobe.com/devnet-apps/photoshop/fileformatashtml/ > > I am curious - what is not documented? > I wrote one of the leading open source PSD parsers. More than 90% of functionality isn't even mentioned in that document you cite, and what *is* mentioned, is very poorly described (i.e. too inaccurately to write working code without many hours of reverse engineering). Do not mistake the existence of "a document" for the existence of a complete or useful reference. It is quite impossible, for example, to write a PSD rasteriser. This plainly references anti-competitive business motives... which are natural enemies of data preservation and interoperability. Now we could talk about all the world's data locked up in MSOOXML... --Toby > -- > Will > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 28 18:00:44 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 19:00:44 -0400 Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/08/11 5:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/28/2011 04:44 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> And those things are the ones I'm talking about. We will >>>>> never lose >>>>> the spec for the JFIF file format because the whole world uses it. We >>>>> will also never lose (assuming we have it now) the PERQ image file >>>>> format because there are people like us around. >>>> >>>> I don;t beleive any of us are immortal, and nor are the people who get >>>> our collections when we pass away. It's always possible that at some >>>> point in the not-too-distant future one of said nth-generation >>>> inheritors >>>> says 'This pinoe of paper is worthless', and then some file format (or >>>> whateer) is lost forever. >>> >>> Good heavens. Do you really think it takes a bunch of hobbyists >>> maintaining obscure information to preserve, say, the spec for GIF, >>> JFIF, and PNG? >> >> These are terrible examples and illuminate very little. Why do people >> insist on using them? > > As examples in this discussion? Because we were talking about common > image formats, and someone asserted that all image formats are evil > because the specs for everything will be lost. I think we are all agreed that JPG, PNG, GIF will not be lost. Now let's talk about the *interesting* cases... > > As such, with the vast, VAST majority of images in the world today > being in one of those formats, it is actually an excellent example. > >>> In the case of file formats that actually get used NOW, >>> hell, those specs are printed in dozens of books by several different >>> publishers in many different languages, and sold by the thousands. And >>> that's not even counting digital archives. >> >> That's simply not true. Many formats are proprietary. > > Formats that people actually USE? No. Sure, there ARE some > proprietary formats out there, More than a few. > and I'm sure there are some poor saps who > use them from time to time. Your insistence that these obscure cases > are somehow the norm is amusing. > > For the formats that actually get used, unless we undergo some sort of > a friggin' holocaust or something, said documentation will always be > available. And even if we DO have some sort of a holocaust, I'm sure > somewhere there will be at least ONE remaining copy of one of the > hundreds of thousands of books printed on the subject. > > Even vertical-market imaging formats used in the world of astronomy, > physics, and medicine are (mostly) standardized and documented these > days. Stop with the doom-saying. > >> Even extensions >> and codecs used with extensible "open" formats are frequently >> proprietary (e.g. TIFF). > > Yes. And the 10% of the world that uses TIFF (as nice a format as it > is) has maybe 10% of THAT using proprietary extensions. People that use > them should probably move to a documented format. > >> One *extremely* common format (PSD) is very poorly documented. The vast >> majority (> 90%) of what PSD is supposed to represent is not documented >> at all. Yet data that cost billions of dollars to create rests in it. > > Gee, I open PSD files in GIMP all day long, works just fine here. > Maybe there are some weird features that won't be properly decoded, but > I can SEE THE DAMN IMAGE just fine, and isn't that the point, in the > context in which we're discussing this? There are plenty of PSDs that Gimp cannot open properly. And even those that Gimp *can* open, only a small subset of features are supported. > > But even ignoring that...your supposed all-destructive holocaust is > going to destroy EVERY REMAINING COPY of Adobe Photoshop, along with > EVERY COMPUTER capable of running it? Yes, that's very close to what inevitably occurs, once you put thought into the problem. You are dealing with obsolescence on several levels simultaneously, among them: - media - file format - application - operating system - machine architecture These all go obsolete on rather short cycles. It is not necessary for the "last copy" to be destroyed. It is only necessary for "a copy I can easily get hold of, along with a working machine of that architecture I can easily get hold of, along with a copy of its system software, ..." etc, etc. And soon enough you begin to need knowledge that you either forgot or never actually had. Like a serial number. Or remote server activation. > >> TL;DR: Just because something is ubiquitously used today does NOT mean >> the knowledge to decode it is known outside tiny, doomed cabals. > > This is just ludicrous. Some peoples' obsession with pointing out > obscure corner cases and insisting that they are somehow the norm is > entertaining at first, but very quickly becomes old. PSD isn't an obscure corner case - it's (for better or worse) an industry standard. And we could cite plenty of others, that are not publicly documented. --Toby > > -Dave > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 28 19:17:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 17:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> OK After TOTAL ANNHILATION (either nucular holocaust, or just one decade of "business as usual" in this industry), . . . X% (30? 50? 90?) of files are readable, or documented/reverse-engineerable. MY glass is half-empty. It doesn't take much. Death of a Don Maslin, etc. How many people here CAN (both know how, AND have the resources) to read a Vector-Graphic disk? NEC-9801 "Stand-Alone BASIC" (NOT CP/M nor MS-DOS) and NOT readable on a "normal" 1.4M drive? (trivial as a joint effort of Maslin, Sellam, Cisin (my role was to look at extracted sectors, decipher tyhe DIRectory structure, and tell them which sectors to read next), but does anybody have a WORKING machine? ) Victor 9000? (Sirius) Durango? Floptical? Stringy Floppy?? Drivetec? Micropolis M-DOS? Apple /// SOS? Apple ][ DOS? 13 SECTOR?? PRODOS? P-System? CP/M? 13 SECTOR?? RS Model 100 DVI? RS Model 100 "Portable Disk Drive"? Word-Pervert 3.x files? Electric Pencil DISK FORMAT? OK, now I know that you are immortal, . . . but, if you blue-screen, how many more people can? Early versions of Visicalc, WEIRD, etc. may have been documented (DOUBTFUL!), but where is that documentation NOW? I had a short, unprofitable, but very worthwhile career deciphering disk formats that were not documented. There were more than a dozen people who were better at it than I; how many are ALIVE? Where are those "BOOKS" that included that info? Sure, MOST files are recoverable. Is that enough? Reality check: How many people, who are NOT on this list, give a shit whether old data can be recovered? There are frequent [formula] news stories about how NASA/etc. can not find access to their own old data, but what, if anything, is being done about that "problem"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 28 19:46:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 17:46:02 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au>, <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5A7EDA.22096.1D6D013@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Aug 2011 at 17:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > Reality check: How many people, who are NOT on this list, give a shit > whether old data can be recovered? There are frequent [formula] news > stories about how NASA/etc. can not find access to their own old data, > but what, if anything, is being done about that "problem"? I seem to remember that the Dead Media list died around 2001--and the content of the Czech Technodrom website (http://www.technodrom.cz/) seems to be inoperative. So even dead media projects die. So what's being done? Not much, it seems. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 20:00:19 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:00:19 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5A7EDA.22096.1D6D013@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5A7EDA.22096.1D6D013@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Reality check: ?How many people, who are NOT on this list, give a shit >> whether old data can be recovered? ?There are frequent [formula] news >> stories about how NASA/etc. can not find access to their own old data, >> but what, if anything, is being done about that "problem"? http://pds.nasa.gov/ Every bit of every mission. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 28 20:06:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:06:55 -0400 Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5AC6BB.1070608@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8CB.9070602@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AC6BB.1070608@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5AE62F.2060202@neurotica.com> On 08/28/2011 06:52 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > I wrote one of the leading open source PSD parsers. More than 90% of > functionality isn't even mentioned in that document you cite, and what > *is* mentioned, is very poorly described (i.e. too inaccurately to write > working code without many hours of reverse engineering). That seriously sucks (Adobe's documentation); the open-source community is surely glad for your efforts. > Do not mistake the existence of "a document" for the existence of a > complete or useful reference. It is quite impossible, for example, to > write a PSD rasteriser. This plainly references anti-competitive > business motives... which are natural enemies of data preservation and > interoperability. > > Now we could talk about all the world's data locked up in MSOOXML... Well, the fools that use that kind of garbage get what they've got coming to them. Microsoft doesn't even TRY to hide their whole vendor lock-in campaign. People who fall for it? Screw 'em. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Aug 28 20:10:09 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:10:09 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5A7EDA.22096.1D6D013@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E5AE6F1.6020900@bitsavers.org> On 8/28/11 6:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Every bit of every mission. and there is recovery work going on from the 60's http://disc.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/nimbus/documentation/documents/N4-Recovery-Report-Dec2010.doc From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 28 20:11:53 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:11:53 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/08/11 8:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > ... > Reality check: How many people, who are NOT on this list, give a shit > whether old data can be recovered? There are frequent [formula] news > stories about how NASA/etc. can not find access to their own old data, but > what, if anything, is being done about that "problem"? Even the White House - who you might consider would have the means to preserve them - cannot seem to stop losing email archives. Though, this may not be for technical reasons... I would bet that the rate of commercial data loss is much greater than we will hear about, both due to embarrassment, and risks of legal problems for individuals and the companies involved. Combined with the general notorious lack of prudence in the industry with respect to technical decisions in software and hardware... --Toby > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 28 20:12:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:12:03 -0400 Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5AE763.2080602@neurotica.com> On 08/28/2011 07:00 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Good heavens. Do you really think it takes a bunch of hobbyists >>>> maintaining obscure information to preserve, say, the spec for GIF, >>>> JFIF, and PNG? >>> >>> These are terrible examples and illuminate very little. Why do people >>> insist on using them? >> >> As examples in this discussion? Because we were talking about common >> image formats, and someone asserted that all image formats are evil >> because the specs for everything will be lost. > > I think we are all agreed that JPG, PNG, GIF will not be lost. Ok, well that's what we were discussing. > Now let's talk about the *interesting* cases... The ones which comprise probably less than 1% of the world's digital image data? Seriously? >> Formats that people actually USE? No. Sure, there ARE some >> proprietary formats out there, > > More than a few. Ok: Any that matter? >> But even ignoring that...your supposed all-destructive holocaust is >> going to destroy EVERY REMAINING COPY of Adobe Photoshop, along with >> EVERY COMPUTER capable of running it? > > Yes, that's very close to what inevitably occurs, once you put thought > into the problem. You are dealing with obsolescence on several levels > simultaneously, among them: > - media > - file format > - application > - operating system > - machine architecture > > These all go obsolete on rather short cycles. And if "go obsolete" means "can no longer be used" to you, then you're likely already screwed on a few different levels. > It is not necessary for > the "last copy" to be destroyed. It is only necessary for "a copy I can > easily get hold of, along with a working machine of that architecture I > can easily get hold of, along with a copy of its system software, ..." > etc, etc. And soon enough you begin to need knowledge that you either > forgot or never actually had. Like a serial number. Or remote server > activation. Well, suitly profitware is a "buyer beware" sort of situation. You want to eventually lose access to your own images? Be enough of a moron to buy garbage like that. Be enough of a moron to use "image hosting" services. Be enough of a moron to NOT put any thought into the "hey, how pissed off will I be if I lose this image forever?" question. Are people like that really worth worrying about? For you, maybe. For me? I'm just not that patient a person. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 28 20:22:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:22:10 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> On 08/28/2011 08:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > OK > > After TOTAL ANNHILATION (either nucular holocaust, or just one decade of > "business as usual" in this industry), . . . > > X% (30? 50? 90?) of files are readable, or documented/reverse-engineerable. > > MY glass is half-empty. > > > It doesn't take much. Death of a Don Maslin, etc. So you're following the Toby Thain lunacy of suggesting that it's just as possible for human society to lose the ability to decode JFIF images as it was to lose all those CP/M boot disks? That's crap on so many levels. JFIF's mainstream lifetime is already considerably longer than CP/M's ever was. Orders of magnitude more people have worked with (i.e., written software for) JFIF decoding than have ever even HEARD of CP/M. Eventually a "critical mass" of information duplication is reached, at which certain tidbits of information just Will Not Be Lost without something like a major, population- and infrastructure-decimating holocaust. I'm talking "bombing ourselves back to the stone age" holocaust. We will never lose access to JFIF, GIF, and PNG images. PERQ? Maybe. I didn't lose access to any images due to the loss of that file format spec. Did you? Do you know anyone who has? Do you know anyone who knows anyone who has? I didn't think so. And if it were THAT important, hell, I've reverse-engineered file formats before, as I'm sure you have as well. It's far from impossible. It isn't 1960 anymore. TODAY'S data isn't going anywhere. YESTERDAY'S is disappearing due to stupidity and short-sightedness, and a big chunk of stuff in one category has been saved by the skin of its teeth by efforts like Bitsavers. The JFIF spec never needs to be in Bitsavers' archive. > How many people here CAN (both know how, AND have the resources) > to read a Vector-Graphic disk? > > NEC-9801 "Stand-Alone BASIC" (NOT CP/M nor MS-DOS) and NOT readable on a > "normal" 1.4M drive? (trivial as a joint effort of Maslin, Sellam, > Cisin (my role was to look at extracted sectors, decipher tyhe > DIRectory structure, and tell them which sectors to read next), but does > anybody have a WORKING machine? ) > > Victor 9000? (Sirius) > > Durango? > > Floptical? > > Stringy Floppy?? > > Drivetec? > > Micropolis M-DOS? > > Apple /// SOS? > > Apple ][ DOS? 13 SECTOR?? PRODOS? P-System? CP/M? 13 SECTOR?? > > RS Model 100 DVI? > > RS Model 100 "Portable Disk Drive"? > > Word-Pervert 3.x files? > > Electric Pencil DISK FORMAT? Yes, obscure stuff from decades ago has been lost. I suppose by this logic, and Toby's, that we'd better be careful because at some point mankind will forget how to do things like FIRE and THE WHEEL! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 28 20:32:56 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5AE62F.2060202@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8CB.9070602@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AC6BB.1070608@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AE62F.2060202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110828182800.L49031@shell.lmi.net> > > Now we could talk about all the world's data locked up in MSOOXML... Is that some sort of "cloud computing"/"there is only need for half a dozen computers"? On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well, the fools that use that kind of garbage get what they've got > coming to them. Microsoft doesn't even TRY to hide their whole vendor > lock-in campaign. People who fall for it? Screw 'em. Did MICROS~1 come up with that concept on their own, or did they lift that one from Steve Jobs? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 20:33:34 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:33:34 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > Even the White House - who you might consider would have the means to > preserve them - cannot seem to stop losing email archives. Though, this > may not be for technical reasons... Every 18 1/2 minutes or so. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 28 20:37:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:37:37 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> On 08/28/2011 09:11 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Even the White House - who you might consider would have the means to > preserve them - cannot seem to stop losing email archives. Though, this > may not be for technical reasons... I sincerely hope you're not holding up the US Gov't as a shining example of technical know-how and literacy. If I weren't having such a shitty day, I'd be laughing my ass off right now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 28 20:48:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:48:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20110828183518.X49031@shell.lmi.net> > > Reality check: How many people, who are NOT on this list, give a shit > > whether old data can be recovered? There are frequent [formula] news > > stories about how NASA/etc. can not find access to their own old data, but > > what, if anything, is being done about that "problem"? On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Toby Thain wrote: > Even the White House - who you might consider would have the means to > preserve them - cannot seem to stop losing email archives. Though, this > may not be for technical reasons... I find it hilarious when people talk about the technological capability to recover Nixon's 18.5 minutes. It never was a technological problem. (When Dick died, I suggested to my class that we observe 18.5 minutes of silence. They were too young, and didn't get the reference.) > I would bet that the rate of commercial data loss is much greater than > we will hear about, both due to embarrassment, and risks of legal > problems for individuals and the companies involved. Combined with the > general notorious lack of prudence in the industry with respect to > technical decisions in software and hardware... The Grand Jury looked into our administration's implementation of their new computer system (Peoplesoft). After 5 years, they are far from achieving even the miserable level of functionality of their old IBM mainframe, and a LOT of data is gone for good. For example, they are unable to tell the state teachers' retirement system how much I worked 30 years ago. They tried to fire one of my colleagues for downloading files from the mainframe when it was slated for death. 'course they also tried to fire him for un-dumpstering computer hardware (including a PDP-11) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 28 20:51:52 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:51:52 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> References: , <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net>, <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> You know, I worry less about obscure formats than I do the total loss/editing of history on the web. Information being suddenly "reclassified" by governments, embarrassing content being deleted or ambitious lawyers getting whole websites wiped from existence. Very 1984-ish. We're writing the history of our civilization in sand. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 28 21:09:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:09:55 -0400 Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <20110828182800.L49031@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8CB.9070602@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AC6BB.1070608@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AE62F.2060202@neurotica.com> <20110828182800.L49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5AF4F3.4020101@neurotica.com> On 08/28/2011 09:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Now we could talk about all the world's data locked up in MSOOXML... > > Is that some sort of "cloud computing"/"there is only need for half a > dozen computers"? Yep, that's it. Boy are the people who fall for THAT crap going to be surprised in a couple of years. >> Well, the fools that use that kind of garbage get what they've got >> coming to them. Microsoft doesn't even TRY to hide their whole vendor >> lock-in campaign. People who fall for it? Screw 'em. > > Did MICROS~1 come up with that concept on their own, or did they lift that > one from Steve Jobs? MICROS~! has it down to a science. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 28 21:17:30 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:17:30 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5AF6BA.7000505@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/08/11 9:33 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Even the White House - who you might consider would have the means to >> preserve them - cannot seem to stop losing email archives. Though, this >> may not be for technical reasons... > > Every 18 1/2 minutes or so. I resisted :) --T > > -- > Will > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 28 21:21:26 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:21:26 -0500 Subject: Rice R1 Message-ID: An early vacuum tube computer, Houston Texas: http://www.cs.rice.edu/History/R1/ I have been close to a piece of this; about the form factor of the 2001 monolith, 9 feet tall, 5 feet wide, foot thick. Plexiglas and all the construction, tubes very neatly wired. It floated around town for a bit, it served as a coffee table at Autocad for a number of years and we all spilled a few beers on it during after hours CAD conversations... It was picked up by a friend and a conversation piece in his garage. This we guessed was just one register, there were perhaps 20 or so of these likewise panels in the original. When in Houston, drop by, it is now in a proper place, Rice Library in the Woodson Research Center. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 28 21:26:00 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 19:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110828185701.P49031@shell.lmi.net> > > After TOTAL ANNHILATION (either nucular holocaust, or just one decade of > > "business as usual" in this industry), . . . > > X% (30? 50? 90?) of files are readable, or documented/reverse-engineerable. > > MY glass is half-empty. > > It doesn't take much. Death of a Don Maslin, etc. On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > So you're following the Toby Thain lunacy "FOLLOWING"?? I don't know Toby's background, but I LEAD in that lunacy! > of suggesting that it's > just as possible for human society to lose the ability to decode JFIF > images as it was to lose all those CP/M boot disks? You would be amazed at what people are capable of not knowing! > That's crap on so many levels. JFIF's mainstream lifetime is already > considerably longer than CP/M's ever was. Orders of magnitude more > people have worked with (i.e., written software for) JFIF decoding than > have ever even HEARD of CP/M. > Eventually a "critical mass" of information duplication is reached, > at which certain tidbits of information just Will Not Be Lost without > something like a major, population- and infrastructure-decimating > holocaust. I'm talking "bombing ourselves back to the stone age" holocaust. admittedly, it took a millenium to forget entirely how to read Egyption hieroglyphics, saved only by a chance discovery of a multilingual proclamation. Someday, the directions to the loo in Montreal will provide what's needed to recreate English and/or French. > We will never lose access to JFIF, GIF, and PNG images. Certainly the knowledge of the PRESENT is immortal. And surely that is ALL that we could ever possibly need. If we assume that access to JFIF will never fade, is there any other file spec info that we need? > PERQ? Maybe. I didn't lose access to any images due to the loss of > that file format spec. Did you? Do you know anyone who has? Do you > know anyone who knows anyone who has? I knew a LOT of people who lost access to data due to the loss of file specs. (NOT JFIF, nor specifically PERQ) But that could never happen NOW. > I didn't think so. > And if it were THAT important, hell, I've reverse-engineered file > formats before, as I'm sure you have as well. It's far from impossible. Certainly possible. I just hope that we don't have to keep doing it as much. > It isn't 1960 anymore. DAMN! I LIKED the 1960s! > TODAY'S data isn't going anywhere. > YESTERDAY'S is disappearing due to stupidity and short-sightedness, and but stupidity and short-sightedness no longer rule? You, sir, underestimate the prevalence and power of stupidity! The administration of the college, for example, is losing critical data on a daily basis. Nothing short of defenestration will stop them from losing it. Last month, the amount of comp time that I have accumulated (a year!) had to be recreated from post-it notes on a cubicle wall. > Yes, obscure stuff from decades ago has been lost. such as audio recordings of Janis Joplin. > I suppose by this logic, and Toby's, that we'd better be careful > because at some point mankind will forget how to do things like FIRE and > THE WHEEL! As a matter of fact, . . . All day long, I work around people who literally could not start a fire [DELIBERATELY!] without a Bic lighter. It seems like the Golgafrincham B Ark remains the repository of knowledge. ("But does our target market WANT it (fire) nasally inserted?"; "OK, if you're so smart what color SHOULD it (the wheel) be?") If the college were to be run by people like you, then I might have more hope for mankind. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 28 21:27:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 19:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> > > Even the White House - who you might consider would have the means to > > preserve them - cannot seem to stop losing email archives. Though, this > > may not be for technical reasons... On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > I sincerely hope you're not holding up the US Gov't as a shining > example of technical know-how and literacy. If I weren't having such a > shitty day, I'd be laughing my ass off right now. no, Toby and I are speculating that technical know-how and literacy could lose out to the forces of idiocy. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Aug 28 21:42:29 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:42:29 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > We're writing the history of our civilization in sand. What's new? -- Will From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 28 21:46:12 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:46:12 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110828183518.X49031@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828183518.X49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5AFD74.6050309@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/08/11 9:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >... > They tried to fire one of my colleagues for downloading files from the > mainframe when it was slated for death. 'course they also tried to fire > him for un-dumpstering computer hardware (including a PDP-11) And so you bring the thread back on topic, like a death row reprieve - but on such a depressing note. :( --Toby > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Aug 28 21:52:07 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 22:52:07 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net>, <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E5AFED7.3020008@telegraphics.com.au> On 28/08/11 9:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You know, I worry less about obscure formats than I do the total > loss/editing of history on the web. Information being suddenly > "reclassified" by governments, ...and information being replaced by fabrications, without notice, and making it personally dangerous to question this... > embarrassing content being deleted or > ambitious lawyers getting whole websites wiped from existence. > > Very 1984-ish. At least Orwell left us a road map to our present. The ironic flipside to this, of course, is that everything _is_ being comprehensively archived and data mined (including this thread), but in secret, inaccessible places, by those who mean us no good. --Toby > > We're writing the history of our civilization in sand. > > --Chuck > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 28 22:33:00 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 20:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> > > We're writing the history of our civilization in sand. > What's new? We've always written in sand. But now we're melting it, because we think that silicon lasts. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Aug 28 23:03:54 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:03:54 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! References: <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <4E5A8E48.17511.213167F@cclist.sydex.com> <20110828203136.N49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E463DE1A10E45D583DF09A78DB60E95@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 11:33 PM Subject: Re: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! >> > We're writing the history of our civilization in sand. >> What's new? > > We've always written in sand. > But now we're melting it, because we think that silicon lasts. > It lasts longer then something in RAM when the power goes out. Humans have not been storing this amount of information for very long, it is new to us. I figure in 100 years we will have mastered the art of storing everything in a way that will be the easiest to get lost permanently so the digital paper pushers of that era can re patent everything and make more money (while people try to figure out how to make a wheel and start fires all over again). From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 28 23:12:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 00:12:43 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> On 08/28/2011 10:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Even the White House - who you might consider would have the means to >>> preserve them - cannot seem to stop losing email archives. Though, this >>> may not be for technical reasons... > > On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I sincerely hope you're not holding up the US Gov't as a shining >> example of technical know-how and literacy. If I weren't having such a >> shitty day, I'd be laughing my ass off right now. > > no, Toby and I are speculating that technical know-how and literacy could > lose out to the forces of idiocy. Well...with that I cannot disagree. But, I have to think that JFIF, PNG, and GIF file specs should be able to survive even OUR gov'ts level of stupidity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From g-wright at att.net Sun Aug 28 23:41:09 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 21:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dec RSX Login Message-ID: <1314592869.23710.YahooMailRC@web83816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I Have a 11-24 here running RSX. The guy I got it from does not recall the login Name or account. Just remembers there was no password. Is there standard accounts set up when the system is loaded ?? or a way to hack into it. Boots saying " RSX-11M V4.0 BL32" Thanks, Jerry From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Aug 29 04:04:29 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:04:29 +0200 Subject: Blue handle flipchips Message-ID: <0a71dc64e760ef61e16752ff49bc2e69.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi, Does anybody know where DEC flipchips with a blue handle were used for? I have one numbered 'B161'. Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 29 07:49:18 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:49:18 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/08/11 12:12 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/28/2011 10:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Even the White House - who you might consider would have the means to >>>> preserve them - cannot seem to stop losing email archives. Though, this >>>> may not be for technical reasons... >> >> On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I sincerely hope you're not holding up the US Gov't as a shining >>> example of technical know-how and literacy. If I weren't having such a >>> shitty day, I'd be laughing my ass off right now. >> >> no, Toby and I are speculating that technical know-how and literacy could >> lose out to the forces of idiocy. > > Well...with that I cannot disagree. But, I have to think that JFIF, > PNG, and GIF file specs should be able to survive Nobody is disagreeing with you on such obvious cases. Also sufficient: source code. Open source has an unconquerable advantage here, over proprietary. --Toby > even OUR gov'ts level > of stupidity. > > -Dave > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 08:05:38 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 06:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> <4E558DCC.90603@jbrain.com> <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yes.. Atari is going after everyone who is using their trademark name and logo. They HAVE too, otherwise they lose their trademark. http://phillipsgivenslaw.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-does-one-lose-their-trademark.html "1. Failure to prosecute infringers. ?I can not tell you how important it is to prosecute (prevent) trademark infringers from unlawfully using your trademark. ?If you do not, your trademark is considered weak. ? Furthermore, if you take no action to prevent infringers and their use of your trademark is overwhelming, you can lose your trademark rights. ?Essentially, your trademark will lose its uniqueness to your product or service." Here is the case of Shelby losing the trademark of his Cobra because he didn't defend it in the first place. http://jalopnik.com/5681447/carroll-shelby-loses-trademark-fight-over-cobras-design If you have a trademark and everyone copies it and you don't defend it, you will lose it. From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Aug 29 08:40:09 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:40:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Dec RSX Login In-Reply-To: <1314592869.23710.YahooMailRC@web83816.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Aug 2011, Jerry Wright wrote: > I Have a 11-24 here running RSX. The guy I got it from does > not recall the login Name or account. Just remembers there > was no password. > > Is there standard accounts set up when the system is loaded ?? > or a way to hack into it. > > Boots saying " RSX-11M V4.0 BL32" I had a similar problem about fifteen years ago with an 11/73 that I picked up from the DSIR in New Zealand (from back when they were still called the DSIR). I ended up calling DEC in NZ (I was only 17 or so at the time) and they suggested that if I hit ^C repeatedly it would break out of the start-up scripts at the SYSTEM level. I tried over and over again and, eventually, managed to have it work. I don't remember _which_ release of RSX-11M it was, however, so YMMV. Good luck; - JP From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Aug 29 09:12:56 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:12:56 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> <4E558DCC.90603@jbrain.com> <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E5B9E68.6040207@verizon.net> On 8/29/2011 9:05 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > Yes.. Atari is going after everyone who is using their trademark name > and logo. > > They HAVE too[sic], otherwise they lose their trademark. > If you have a trademark and everyone copies it and you don't defend > it, you will lose it. A bunch of people have already made this observation. Atari has failed to defend their trademark for at least 10 or 11 years, probably longer. If what you are saying is true, haven't they already lost it? Keith From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 09:50:19 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 07:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E5B9E68.6040207@verizon.net> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> <4E558DCC.90603@jbrain.com> <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E5B9E68.6040207@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1314629419.11386.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> No one posted the links.. I saw one person say " On what basis do you claim this? Got a cite in law?" So I posted a link and an example. Have they lost it? Thats up for a court to decide. It's IP law. You may think what you want about Atari, but they are still a "live" company that still makes games. Problem is that they hired IP lawyers who have no knowledge about the retro community. They could and should do this on a case by case basis and allow limited licenses to sites that benefit them as a brand. ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith M A bunch of people have already made this observation. Atari has failed to defend their trademark for at least 10 or 11 years, probably longer. If what you are saying is true, haven't they already lost it? Keith From vrs at msn.com Mon Aug 29 10:29:41 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:29:41 -0700 Subject: Blue handle flipchips In-Reply-To: <0a71dc64e760ef61e16752ff49bc2e69.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <0a71dc64e760ef61e16752ff49bc2e69.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: From: "E. Groenenberg"; Monday, August 29, 2011 2:04 AM > Does anybody know where DEC flipchips with a blue handle > were used for? I have one numbered 'B161'. A few were used in the straight-8, LINC8, etc. but mostly I think of them in connection with the PDP-10 and such. I'm not sure what gear would use a B161, specifically. My understanding of the blue handle series is that it is like the red handle (Rxxx/Sxxx) series, but even faster yet than the Sxxx. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 29 10:39:14 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:39:14 -0700 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net>, <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E5B5032.17677.CCEAF@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Aug 2011 at 6:05, Christian Liendo wrote: > Yes.. Atari is going after everyone who is using their trademark name > and logo. > > They HAVE too, otherwise they lose their trademark. The original statement was "they will lose their copyright". That's a completely different kettle of fish. Copyrights are not forfeit due to lack of aggressive defense. For an example of this, consider the song "Happy Birthday to You"--even with all of the legal disputes, Warner Bros. apparently still collects royalties. You "abandonware" adherents should consider this when you decide to distribute "free" software. It's illegal, and in the USA, a felony. Don't like it? Get the law changed--I'll back you up. But we've been here before. If you still maintain that copyrights can be voided by lack of an aggressive defense, please cite the case law. Trademarks are a completely different matter and involve a very different body of law. (cf. "Kleenex"). --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 10:40:23 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:40:23 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > Also sufficient: source code. Open source has an unconquerable advantage > here, over proprietary. I do not have complete faith about this in the long term. The open source folks tend to be a loose group of undisciplined volunteers, generally not long term thinkers, with only a very small segment interested in historic preservation. 'Disaster Recovery" is a funny phrase, isn't it? The Bitsavers/CHM model works pretty well. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 29 11:09:28 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:09:28 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5BB9B8.2010601@bitsavers.org> On 8/29/11 8:40 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Also sufficient: source code. Open source has an unconquerable advantage >> here, over proprietary. > > I do not have complete faith about this in the long term. The open > source folks tend to be a loose group of undisciplined volunteers, > generally not long term thinkers, with only a very small segment > interested in historic preservation. > Who toss legacy hardware support at an alarming rate because it's too much work. Linux is an extreme example of this. NetBSD pretty much the opposite. They also thrash on the 'fun' parts of systems (GNOME/KDE look and feel) and don't bother with the dirty, un-fun parts of making systems stable for the real world. I don't know how far back they ever found it, but Stallman/FSF were hunting for GNU distributions because they didn't have a complete archive of what they had released. I had looked at the problem of archiving open source projects for CHM and couldn't get my head around what to consider important. Sourceforge was filled with half-baked abandoned projects, and now I don't even know where to start with the half-baked abandoned web sites trying to be Sourceforge. I also don't agree that modern software systems are in a better state to be preserved. In the 'old days' you could get a shrink-wrapped package that was the entire deal, docs, and media. Today, it's a blob that comes off the web and gets patched very frequently, as well as potentially being tied to the mother-ship to be functional. There are dozens (hundreds?) of products now that are devices that were tethered to dead back-end services (Danger Sidekick). How do you even start to preserve this? The direction the world is heading with computers is making it very, very difficult to preserve. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 29 11:12:10 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <4E5B5032.17677.CCEAF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net>, <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E5B5032.17677.CCEAF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Aug 2011 at 6:05, Christian Liendo wrote: > >> Yes.. Atari is going after everyone who is using their trademark name >> and logo. >> >> They HAVE too, otherwise they lose their trademark. > > The original statement was "they will lose their copyright". That's Which I pointed out was _completely_ wrong. :) > You "abandonware" adherents should consider this when you decide to > distribute "free" software. It's illegal, and in the USA, a felony. > Don't like it? Get the law changed--I'll back you up. > Something tells me the heat death of the universe will occur before the law gets changed. There's just too many congresscritters on the payroll of entertainment companies for it to ever come to pass. (ha!) Note that because software is often a work-for-hire, you can be assured that we'll ALL be long dead before those titles legally enter the public domain - providing of course they're EVER permitted to. I suspect as soon as Mickey Mouse comes close to his (new, purchased in the late 90's) expiry date, Disney will buy themselves a new Senator and they'll get it pushed out to 250 years or so after the death of the author. > But we've been here before. If you still maintain that copyrights > can be voided by lack of an aggressive defense, please cite the case > law. > He can't - he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. > Trademarks are a completely different matter and involve a very > different body of law. (cf. "Kleenex"). > ...or "Xerox". ("hey, can you xerox me a copy of that?") g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 11:24:03 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:24:03 -0400 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts Message-ID: > I also don't agree that modern software systems are in a better state to > be preserved. In the 'old days' you could get a shrink-wrapped package that > was the entire deal, docs, and media. Today, it's a blob that comes off the > web and gets patched very frequently, as well as potentially being tied to > the mother-ship to be functional. There are dozens (hundreds?) of products > now that are devices that were tethered to dead back-end services > (Danger Sidekick). How do you even start to preserve this? What is being done to preserve the online gaming scene? For example, one of these days WoW is going to go away. The cultural aspect of a game like this is pretty huge. There are other online games that are probably already gone. How will the archivists handle these? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 11:28:16 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:28:16 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E5B5032.17677.CCEAF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > He can't - he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. I hate to say this, but this list needs a lawyer. I am on a completely unrelated list that has a lawyer that will chime up and set things straight - very handy. Of course, on this list, there are plenty of "experts" that don't believe the experts, so it might be a lost cause. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 29 11:40:32 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:40:32 -0600 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Also sufficient: source code. Open source has an unconquerable advantage > > here, over proprietary. > > I do not have complete faith about this in the long term. The open > source folks tend to be a loose group of undisciplined volunteers, > generally not long term thinkers, with only a very small segment > interested in historic preservation. I think what he means is that open source file formats tend to be less opaque than others because you have the data definition and the associated behavior as open source code. These days I hear people worrying about vendor lockin with their data formats and choosing open source interchange or data formats for the very reason that it keeps their intellectual property investment free of any vendor. Its still not a majority of people talking about those issues, but more people talk about it now than before. I know that people who work on 3D model content think about this quite a bit when they make their living as a content provider. If their content is locked up in a binary format specific to one tool vendor, then they can't readily switch tools or have confidence that their IP investment is accessible should the tool become unavailable. Sometimes this can simply be that their license expired and they don't want to renew it just to access their data. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 29 11:51:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:51:58 -0700 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5BC3AE.2070505@bitsavers.org> On 8/29/11 9:24 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > What is being done to preserve the online gaming scene? For example, > one of these days WoW is going to go away. The cultural aspect of a > game like this is pretty huge. There are other online games that are > probably already gone. > > How will the archivists handle these? > http://pvw.illinois.edu/pvw/?p=44 From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 29 11:52:56 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E5B5032.17677.CCEAF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, William Donzelli wrote: >> He can't - he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. > > I hate to say this, but this list needs a lawyer. > That would be cool, especially one that hadn't already been lobotomized by an MBA. :) > I am on a completely unrelated list that has a lawyer that will chime > up and set things straight - very handy. > I bet! > Of course, on this list, there are plenty of "experts" that don't > believe the experts, so it might be a lost cause. > I'm not one of those. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Aug 29 11:58:07 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:58:07 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E5B5032.17677.CCEAF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E5BC51F.7040500@verizon.net> The latest couple messages reminded me of this song written by the .... ummm...futuristic sex robots, called ummmm, f*** the MPAA. Lyrics here http://www.lyricsaction.com/f/futuristic+sex+robotz/fuck+the+mpaa-lyrics.htm song here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNS7IqmZBbA This is nerd-core hip-hop for those uninitiated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerdcore_hip_hop For a better song, "Back in the Day" is pretty funny for those of us who lived through the 1980's-ish computing period described. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0HKHbJceAw Keith From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 29 12:03:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:03:33 -0700 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: , <4E5B5032.17677.CCEAF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E5B63F5.15344.59FE73@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Aug 2011 at 9:12, Gene Buckle wrote: > Something tells me the heat death of the universe will occur before > the law gets changed. There's just too many congresscritters on the > payroll of entertainment companies for it to ever come to pass. (ha!) Any guesses on how Golan v. Holder will turn out? My guess is that the Supreme Court will decree that US treaties trump the US Constitution, as has been the case with most WTO-related rulings. I don't know if the issue of "restored copyright" affects any computer materials from the old Soviet Union, but it's possible--and something to bear in mind. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Aug 29 12:17:36 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:17:36 -0400 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts In-Reply-To: <4E5BC3AE.2070505@bitsavers.org> References: <4E5BC3AE.2070505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E5BC9B0.60503@verizon.net> On 8/29/2011 12:51 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/29/11 9:24 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> What is being done to preserve the online gaming scene? For example, >> one of these days WoW is going to go away. The cultural aspect of a >> game like this is pretty huge. There are other online games that are >> probably already gone. >> >> How will the archivists handle these? >> > > http://pvw.illinois.edu/pvw/?p=44 Thanks for the link. Their year old paper here discusses the problems and specifically mentions Warcraft III as an example. https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bitstream/handle/2142/17097/PVW.FinalReport.pdf?sequence=2 Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 29 12:20:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:20:56 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5BCA78.6090302@neurotica.com> On 08/29/2011 11:40 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Also sufficient: source code. Open source has an unconquerable advantage >> here, over proprietary. > > I do not have complete faith about this in the long term. The open > source folks tend to be a loose group of undisciplined volunteers, > generally not long term thinkers, with only a very small segment > interested in historic preservation. This is very true. However, I think there's enough data replication in that world to take care of that problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 29 12:26:09 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:26:09 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201108291326.10005.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 13 July 2011 02:30:06 pm Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > [Note the non-UK people here, a Mini is a model of small-ish car, but > > > still much larger than the boot (trunk) of any normal car] > > > > And one of the more fun cars I've driven in my life. Wish these cars > > were cheap enough in Brazil so I could afford one. > > > > (here, the mini is sold by BMW and is a very high price car. There are > > Ah no, that;s the 'new' Mini. And if you think that's areal mini, you > probably also think the the HP Officecalcs are real HP calculators.... > > The real mini, which first appeared in 1959 IIRC, is a somewhat smaller > car. I remember my first encounter with one of those, teeny little wheels on a teeny little car. The best part was that the guy who owned it, who'd brought it over then, was about 6 foot 5... He had to unfold himself getting out of that car. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 29 12:26:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:26:22 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5BB9B8.2010601@bitsavers.org> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5BB9B8.2010601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E5BCBBE.9040305@neurotica.com> On 08/29/2011 12:09 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I do not have complete faith about this in the long term. The open >> source folks tend to be a loose group of undisciplined volunteers, >> generally not long term thinkers, with only a very small segment >> interested in historic preservation. > > Who toss legacy hardware support at an alarming rate because it's too much > work. Linux is an extreme example of this. NetBSD pretty much the opposite. I'm sorry Al, but I have to disagree here. It's pretty rare for device support to be removed from the Linux kernel distribution. There are even ARCnet card drivers still in there. > I don't know how far back they ever found it, but Stallman/FSF were hunting > for GNU distributions because they didn't have a complete archive of what > they had released. And I have to respectfully disagree here, too. Yes, this did happen, but it was because the only server on which those old distributions were archived was cracked by dirtbags, and the archives were tainted. Yes, this does argue for better backups, redundancy, etc, but the loss of those distributions wasn't for the reasons you imply. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 29 12:26:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:26:53 -0400 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: References: <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E5B5032.17677.CCEAF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E5BCBDD.7070700@neurotica.com> On 08/29/2011 12:52 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Of course, on this list, there are plenty of "experts" that don't >> believe the experts, so it might be a lost cause. >> > I'm not one of those. :) Will is. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 29 12:29:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:29:39 -0400 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5BCC83.5000501@neurotica.com> On 08/29/2011 12:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I also don't agree that modern software systems are in a better state to >> be preserved. In the 'old days' you could get a shrink-wrapped package that >> was the entire deal, docs, and media. Today, it's a blob that comes off the >> web and gets patched very frequently, as well as potentially being tied to >> the mother-ship to be functional. There are dozens (hundreds?) of products >> now that are devices that were tethered to dead back-end services >> (Danger Sidekick). How do you even start to preserve this? > > What is being done to preserve the online gaming scene? For example, > one of these days WoW is going to go away. The cultural aspect of a > game like this is pretty huge. There are other online games that are > probably already gone. > > How will the archivists handle these? The greatest productivity-killing, employment-killing, and parental-basement-stuffing products ever developed? I say let them be lost to the sands of time! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 29 12:40:11 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:40:11 -0400 Subject: Sparetime Gizmos SBC-6120 on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4E1E14F5.9030701@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4E1E14F5.9030701@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201108291340.11448.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 13 July 2011 05:58:13 pm Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 13/07/2011 21:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > > There was actually an English car called a 'Maxi' too. It was somewhat > > similar mechancially to the Mini, but larger. > > Similar in a few respects (same manufacturer, transverse engine, similar > front-wheel transmission arrangement) but actually the Maxi was based on > the Austin/Morris 1100, which is a bit bigger than a Mini and a rather > different shape and a very different interior layout. The Maxi was > bigger still - though nevertheless something any American would call a > "small car". Considering what was around when I started driving, they're ALL small cars these days...! :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 29 12:43:31 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 11:43:31 -0600 Subject: mess.org Message-ID: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> Talking about preservation of old stuff ... Anybody know what happened to them? Not reachable for a while already. Cheers From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 13:03:20 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:03:20 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > I think what he means is that open source file formats tend to be less > opaque than others because you have the data definition and the > associated behavior as open source code. That does not matter. My point is that open source projects have a tendency to be sloppy and uncontrolled. Sure, there are some great open source things out there, but after they have had their run and interest has waned, then maybe something bad happens to machines they reside on, will that be the end? I think so. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 29 12:41:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:41:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: AT&T 6300/Olivetti M24 question In-Reply-To: <4E5A6182.19948.1642F59@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 28, 11 03:40:50 pm Message-ID: > > On 28 Aug 2011 at 19:23, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I don;t have the schematics, but my first guss, unfortunately, would > > be a combinatorial PAL acting as a decoder for some of the address > > lines (and manybe other signals). > > Pulling the display cover plate off and doing a little circuit > tracing shows that this IC drives various selects and also CAS for > the display DRAM (4x4416).. In fact, it looks as if the HAL10L8 at > position 5G on the P2 revision of the display controller is exactly > the same part. So, without the real thing, it'd be a matter of > trying to synthesize a replacement. Not worth the effort for me. Do you ahve, or know anybody who has, this P2 versions? The 10L8 has nofeedback terms, so the bare chip, remvoed from the PCb, must implelenmt purely combinatorial functions. While I don't think HALs ever had the fuse map verification circuitry (I've never mananged to find one you can read out in a PAL programmer0, since it's purely combinatorial you could try all 1024 combinations of the inputs, record the outputs and do some kind of logic reduction on the result. Shouldn't be too hard... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 29 13:23:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:23:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5BCBBE.9040305@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 29, 11 01:26:22 pm Message-ID: > I'm sorry Al, but I have to disagree here. It's pretty rare for > device support to be removed from the Linux kernel distribution. There > are even ARCnet card drivers still in there. Will any current linux version run on an 80386 processor? I was under the distinct impression that they don't (in fact they may not even run on an 80486). -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 13:43:05 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:43:05 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCBBE.9040305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Will any current linux version run on an 80386 processor? I was under the > distinct impression that they don't (in fact they may not even run on an > 80486). While the instruction set may still be 80386-compatible (for the i386 modules, naturally), I think the problem with pre-Pentium machines and modern Linux distros is more an issue of motherboard chipsets and memory limitations. For a specific example, I'm still running RedHat 9 on an old Dell CPi laptop because its max memory is 256MB. I don't think I could take an Ubuntu 10.04 install disk and bring it up on that hardware. The amount of RAM available on tiny devices like SheevaPlugs and consumer-grade routers, etc. , rivals or exceeds that of desktop systems from 1991. The inertia in kernel development is unlikely to specifically exempt the features of an 80386 or 80486, but distribution and packaging can quite easily overwhelm the maximum amount of memory one can stuff in those boards. -ethan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 13:52:36 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:52:36 -0500 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: any good archival project should offer a service of the cost of a drive and shipping gets u everything in the archive or something to that affect blam ensures its survives even when it goes down On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 12:43 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Talking about preservation of old stuff ... > > Anybody know what happened to them? Not reachable for a while already. > > Cheers > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 14:03:52 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:03:52 -0500 Subject: Enlargers (was: eBay... Yikes!) In-Reply-To: References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> <3642B61F86F74C80842244A23648742B@dell8300> <007901cc636f$e4e1e170$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E56C4EA.9000305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I have, and plan on using one, several Omega D-II enlargers. I wish I still had my diffusion one. A friend of mine does estate sales, and he has some darkroom equipment coming up. Anyone know a good source for hard rubber trays or a good replacement? Thanks, Paul On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 6:24 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 08/25/2011 04:40 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >>> >>> erm.. with (amateur) photography going digital, how would we get >>> photographs >>> from negatives? >> >> ?There are millions of photographic enlargers out there. ?They didn't all >> just disappear, you know. ;) >> >> ?Or those negatives can easily be scanned, and then printed on a dye-sub >> printer. > > Personally my computer lab was recently taken apart in order to make room > for my Darkroom. ?I have two enlargers, one is for up to 120 roll film, the > second handles up to 4x5" negatives. ?Both of mine are quiet old, but you > can still purchase new enlargers. ?For that matter, you can still purchase > new film cameras. ?In the last year, I've shifted back to mainly shooting > film. > > I can also scan 35mm through 4x5" negatives (I can shoot up to 8x10"), but > when doing B&W I prefer to print on traditional B&W paper. ?For colour, I'll > take the digital files to Costco, or some other place that can do prints (I > will typically get traditional prints when I first have the film developed). > > Zane > > > From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 29 14:09:24 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:09:24 -0400 Subject: VT fixums In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> Message-ID: <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 20 July 2011 12:40:14 pm Ian King wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 3:39 AM > > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VT fixums > > > > >Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > > > >That said I would love to get a VT50 or VT52 as I have neither. > > > > > > > > If you are ever going to be in Toronto, please come and see me. > > Is it possible to ship a VT52? Any idea how much it would cost? > > > > Jerome Fine > > I shipped one a few years ago (and I'm still kicking myself). It was about $70 USD from one coast to the other and it got there in one piece! -- Ian What did you have to do as far as packing is concerned to manage that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Aug 29 14:07:28 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > any good archival project should offer a service of the cost of a drive and > shipping gets u everything in the archive or something to that affect blam > ensures its survives even when it goes down > ...and who is going to pay for the personnel required to spend time copying those hard disks? FYI, "u" is a letter, not a literate persons' replacement for the word "you". *waves his cane* g. [...and yes, the apostrophe might be in the wrong spot.] -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 29 14:26:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:26:43 -0700 Subject: AT&T 6300/Olivetti M24 question In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A6182.19948.1642F59@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 28, 11 03:40:50 pm, Message-ID: <4E5B8583.6296.DD12C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Aug 2011 at 18:41, Tony Duell wrote: > Do you ahve, or know anybody who has, this P2 versions? The 10L8 has > nofeedback terms, so the bare chip, remvoed from the PCb, must > implelenmt purely combinatorial functions. While I don't think HALs > ever had the fuse map verification circuitry (I've never mananged to > find one you can read out in a PAL programmer0, since it's purely > combinatorial you could try all 1024 combinations of the inputs, > record the outputs and do some kind of logic reduction on the result. I'll cast around a bit and see. 6300/M24 boxes are fairly uncommon here, although I expect that they're pretty common in Europe under the Olivetti brand. Judging from the P2 schematics, the 10L8 looks to have the same programming across all (P2, P4, P8) adapters, so that does widen the field a bit. BTW, the 6300 I have runs fine with a VGA card installed. Doubtless that (or an EGA) was the original reason for the modification. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Aug 29 14:30:46 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:30:46 -0400 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4E5BE8E6.5050506@verizon.net> On 8/29/2011 3:07 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > FYI, "u" is a letter, not a literate persons' replacement for the word > "you". > > *waves his cane* Damn whippersnappers. :) Keith From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 14:32:30 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 20:32:30 +0100 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: but is preserved :) http://web.archive.org/web/20090228235001/http://www.mess.org/ Dave Caroline On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 6:43 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Talking about preservation of old stuff ... > > Anybody know what happened to them? Not reachable for a while already. > > Cheers > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 29 14:24:00 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:24:00 -0500 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201108291935.p7TJZmDn073383@billy.ezwind.net> At 11:24 AM 8/29/2011, William Donzelli wrote: >How will the archivists handle these? Virtual machine images. At 12:29 PM 8/29/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > The greatest productivity-killing, employment-killing, and parental-basement-stuffing products ever developed? I say let them be lost to the sands of time! Gosh, I wish I was smart enough to make a software product that was popular, productivity-killing, life-sucking, and capable of destroying relationships and personalities without breaking stride. Sounds mightly profitable to me. I think lots of people will study these worlds, for a long time to come, for social science and for profit. As for the file-format debate, as someone who spent a decade-plus mucking about in the 3D and 2D file-format conversion / filter market, and who wrote a few chapters and edited a bit of the O'Reilly book on graphic file formats, I'm confident that a decade or two from now, they'll still be puzzling over some files that just don't seem to "read" right unless under some emulation of the programs of the era that made them. File format specs are often written *after* the program that made them. Stuff is left out. Features and side-effects are forgotten. Heck, even today, I've been vexed by the container formats used for video. The file extension doesn't tell you much. A month or two I was trying to help a law client who had some patrol car footage on CD. I spent a few hours googling and using deep-inspection tools to try to determine the codecs necessary to play-back on various Windows systems - and ultimately I couldn't get it to play in some environments. - John From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Aug 29 14:39:16 2011 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:39:16 -0500 Subject: Bell & Howell Apple II Keyboard Message-ID: <4E5BEAE4.6040305@tdh.com> Curious if anyone would have spare keys/keyboard or parts of a Bell & Howell "Black" Apple II they are willing to sell. Mine is missing a couple, and would be nice to get it completed. From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 29 14:44:11 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:44:11 -0700 Subject: Recovery of lost knowledge [was RE: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes!] In-Reply-To: <20110828185701.P49031@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <20110828185701.P49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 7:26 PM > admittedly, it took a millenium to forget entirely how to read Egyption > hieroglyphics, saved only by a chance discovery of a multilingual > proclamation. Someday, the directions to the loo in Montreal will > provide what's needed to recreate English and/or French. ITYM "to remember". IIRC, the last Egyptian scribe who could read and write the script died in the 3rd Century CE; Champollion did his work on the Rosetta stone in the very late 18th and early 19th, so at least 1500 years--and it took another century to get some of the readings right. The language itself was written in a variant of the Greek alphabet all along, changing as languages do over time, so that Coptic was available for him to work with (although it was dead as a spoken language by his time). (Wearing my historical linguist hat today.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 29 14:49:30 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:49:30 -0500 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> At 02:09 PM 8/29/2011, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > What did you have to do as far as packing is concerned to manage that? Speaking of shipping, after spending some recent vacation time on the (national USA) Amtrak train system, I noticed in the fine print of the schedule that they accept palletized items up to 500 pounds and can ship between about 100 stations. Is anyone familiar with the rates and gotchas of this method? http://goo.gl/rg0Ki For that matter, if you travelled with your packages, Amtrak allows per-person two 50-pound (max 28" x 22" x 14") carry-ons, three 50-pound (max 36"-cube) checked boxes, and three additional 50-pound boxes for $10 each. Today's one-way fare for Emeryville (San Francisco) to Chicago is $234. I found one web reference that said it cost about as much ($250) to send a 500 pound pallet on a similar trip (Milwaukee to Seattle.) On my recent trip, I saw a fellow carrying a desktop computer and LCD monitor as carry-ons - with no box. - John From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 15:00:55 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:00:55 -0400 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts In-Reply-To: <201108291935.p7TJZmDn073383@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201108291935.p7TJZmDn073383@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >>How will the archivists handle these? > > Virtual machine images. What about the virtual worlds? You can have a virtual machine running the original software, and maybe even connected to an emulated server - but it won't be much fun playing in an endless void. -- Will From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Aug 29 15:07:52 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:07:52 -0700 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image Message-ID: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> I'm in the process of getting a mongrel Sun 3/400 machine running as a host for my Symbolics UX400. The UX400 support software requires SunOS 4.1 which I used to have on CD, but I now appear to have misplaced. (I have a copy of 4.1.4, but it only supports Sun4 machines ) Anyone have a copy they could make an image of? (and yes, I've confirmed that this machine will boot from CD.) Thanks! Josh From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 29 15:12:34 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:12:34 -0500 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5A7EDA.22096.1D6D013@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5A7EDA.22096.1D6D013@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201108292018.p7TKI2B4074677@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:46 PM 8/28/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I seem to remember that the Dead Media list died around 2001-- >So even dead media projects die. So what's being done? Not much, it >seems. I was still talking with Tom Jennings about it in 2005. Sellam was, too. I have a tar of it. To me, it was a data problem. Why support the ancient sorta-database that drove it? Custom flat-file database massaged by custom Perl that emitted HTML? How quaint by today's measure. It should've become something like a wiki, and the dead media it described are probably within Wikipedia by now with greater detail. Then again, the visitor-contributed stories were of great value, too, and Wikipedia doesn't really handle that except by external link. But to maintain my old curmudgeon certification, I guess I'll need to add that contemporary CMS and blog software tends to frustrate my needs and desires. I'd like to pour my brain and ramblings into a web, but I keep wanting something that's more like a newspaper or an encyclopedia and not a blog. - John From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 29 15:23:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:23:59 -0700 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net>, <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E5B92EF.9029.1118117@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Aug 2011 at 14:49, John Foust wrote: > Speaking of shipping, after spending some recent vacation time on the > (national USA) Amtrak train system, I noticed in the fine print of the > schedule that they accept palletized items up to 500 pounds and can > ship between about 100 stations. Is anyone familiar with the rates > and gotchas of this method? I've shipped large items (tubas and sousaphones) via Amtrak Express for a long time and find their rates very competitive. But freight handling varies from depot to depot--and Amtrak HQ often doesn't have a clue. Many depots may accept freight, but not heavy items over 70 lbs. Call the stationmaster at the depots concerned before you ship and double-check. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 29 15:24:18 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Enlargers (was: eBay... Yikes!) In-Reply-To: References: <4E52643D.6090501@acc.umu.se> <4E54162F.1090003@neurotica.com> <4E541A81.2020403@jwsss.com> <3642B61F86F74C80842244A23648742B@dell8300> <007901cc636f$e4e1e170$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4E56C4EA.9000305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110829132315.T2360@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have, and plan on using one, several Omega D-II enlargers. I wish I > still had my diffusion one. > A friend of mine does estate sales, and he has some darkroom equipment > coming up. > > Anyone know a good source for hard rubber trays or a good replacement? How much would you have to modify Apple ][ cases? From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 29 15:27:40 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:27:40 -0500 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts In-Reply-To: References: <201108291935.p7TJZmDn073383@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201108292028.p7TKSfDa075019@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:00 PM 8/29/2011, William Donzelli wrote: >>>How will the archivists handle these? >> >> Virtual machine images. > >What about the virtual worlds? You can have a virtual machine running >the original software, and maybe even connected to an emulated server >- but it won't be much fun playing in an endless void. "World" meaning the 3D landscape? Or the players and their stuff? It's all in databases on servers. It's probably all in virtual appliances today. Appliance images are probably all they are backing-up today. No doubt some other earlier examples exist where they quaintly put one and only OS on one physical server, but if you have the hard drive image, it could be virtualized. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 29 15:31:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5BE8E6.5050506@verizon.net> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5BE8E6.5050506@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110829133043.L2360@shell.lmi.net> > > FYI, "u" is a letter, not a literate persons' replacement for the word > > "you". > > *waves his cane* > Damn whippersnappers. :) and keep 'em off of my lawn! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 15:30:38 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:30:38 -0300 Subject: Recovery of lost knowledge [was RE: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes!] References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <20110828185701.P49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20C88F6E67EF4A0CB8F57951D0DE5353@portajara> > ITYM "to remember". IIRC, the last Egyptian scribe who could read and > write the script died in the 3rd Century CE; Champollion did his work > on the Rosetta stone in the very late 18th and early 19th, so at least > 1500 years--and it took another century to get some of the readings right. But they didn't had the net, backups in DLT and replicability :) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 15:40:04 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:40:04 -0500 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E5BF924.2030103@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: > For that matter, if you travelled with your packages, Amtrak allows > per-person two 50-pound (max 28" x 22" x 14") carry-ons, three 50-pound > (max 36"-cube) checked boxes, and three additional 50-pound boxes for $10 each. Interesting. I wonder if there's a restriction on strapping extra items about your person and counting it as body fat? :-) > On my recent trip, I saw a fellow carrying a desktop computer and > LCD monitor as carry-ons - with no box. I don't think I even get a rail service up here. Certainly not passenger, but I don't think there's even a freight service any more :-( cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 29 15:44:09 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Recovery of lost knowledge [was RE: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes!] In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <20110828185701.P49031@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110829134300.Q2360@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > ITYM "to remember". IIRC, the last Egyptian scribe who could read and > write the script died in the 3rd Century CE; Champollion did his work > on the Rosetta stone in the very late 18th and early 19th, so at least > 1500 years--and it took another century to get some of the readings right. So, the loss happened quicker than I had thought, and the recovery took longer. > (Wearing my historical linguist hat today.) Thank you! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Aug 29 15:49:40 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:49:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Blue handle flipchips In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1314650980.24402.YahooMailClassic@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 8/29/11, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > My understanding of the blue handle series is that it is > like the red handle (Rxxx/Sxxx) series, but even faster yet > than the Sxxx. They are a faster logic family, similar to that used in the earlier system modules. R-series was a reduced-cost family making extensive use of code-capacitor-diode gating to use fewer transistors. There's a discussion of the evolution of DEC's logic families in "Computer Engineering; A DEC View of Hardware Systems Design" by Bell, McNamara, and Mudge. --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 29 16:01:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:01:49 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <201108292018.p7TKI2B4074677@billy.ezwind.net> References: , <4E5A7EDA.22096.1D6D013@cclist.sydex.com>, <201108292018.p7TKI2B4074677@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E5B9BCD.1922.13424B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Aug 2011 at 15:12, John Foust wrote: > But to maintain my old curmudgeon certification, I guess I'll need to > add that contemporary CMS and blog software tends to frustrate my > needs and desires. I'd like to pour my brain and ramblings into a > web, but I keep wanting something that's more like a newspaper or an > encyclopedia and not a blog. Yes, and it would earn the gratitude of many conservators and archivists. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 16:22:42 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:22:42 -0400 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts In-Reply-To: <201108292028.p7TKSfDa075019@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201108291935.p7TJZmDn073383@billy.ezwind.net> <201108292028.p7TKSfDa075019@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > "World" meaning the 3D landscape? ?Or the players and their stuff? Yes, the content. Yes, we can probably archive the game engine, but I doubt anyone is capturing and archiving the world as they play*. > It's all in databases on servers. The issue is archiving the databases. For the games that have died out, did anyone bother to save these databases? Or even just the format and structure? * now waiting for the link for the WoW Real Time World Archive Project. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 29 16:31:25 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 14:31:25 -0700 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> On 8/29/11 10:43 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Talking about preservation of old stuff ... > > Anybody know what happened to them? mess.org is using is having routing issues From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 16:40:09 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:40:09 -0500 Subject: Recovery of lost knowledge [was RE: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes!] In-Reply-To: <20110829134300.Q2360@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <20110828185701.P49031@shell.lmi.net> <20110829134300.Q2360@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: these archives should offer options to folks to send in a drive to get the whole archive thus keeping it alive On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > > ITYM "to remember". IIRC, the last Egyptian scribe who could read and > > write the script died in the 3rd Century CE; Champollion did his work > > on the Rosetta stone in the very late 18th and early 19th, so at least > > 1500 years--and it took another century to get some of the readings > right. > > So, the loss happened quicker than I had thought, and the recovery took > longer. > > > > (Wearing my historical linguist hat today.) > > Thank you! > > > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 16:56:02 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:56:02 -0500 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: WTF? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 29 17:24:27 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > WTF? context? or just on general principles? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 29 17:27:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:27:48 -0700 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com>, <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <4E5BAFF4.24942.182DB56@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Aug 2011 at 16:56, Adrian Stoness wrote: > WTF? What about the World Trade Federation? --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 17:30:28 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:30:28 -0500 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: people bitching about my use of u On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > WTF? > > context? > > or just on general principles? > > > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Aug 29 17:44:55 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > people bitching about my use of u ...and your idiotic comments... From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 29 17:46:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5BAFF4.24942.182DB56@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com>, <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org>, <4E5BAFF4.24942.182DB56@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110829154413.E6114@shell.lmi.net> > On 29 Aug 2011 at 16:56, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > WTF? On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What about the World Trade Federation? That's not it. Wikileaks Task Force, a[the remainder of the discussion is redacted] From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 29 17:47:26 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110829154708.N6114@shell.lmi.net> O On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > people bitching about my use of u > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > > WTF? > > > > context? > > > > or just on general principles? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 29 18:22:11 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:22:11 -0600 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <20110829154708.N6114@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110829154708.N6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5C1F23.3050806@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/29/2011 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > O > A { From canada here ) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 29 18:34:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:34:15 -0700 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5C1F23.3050806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com>, <20110829154708.N6114@shell.lmi.net>, <4E5C1F23.3050806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E5BBF87.17207.1BFB2C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Aug 2011 at 17:22, ben wrote: > > On 8/29/2011 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > O > > > > A I, I, I... From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 29 18:50:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:50:42 -0600 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788 at billy.ezwind.net>, John Foust writes: > At 02:09 PM 8/29/2011, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > > What did you have to do as far as packing is concerned to manage that? > > Speaking of shipping, after spending some recent vacation time on the > (national USA) Amtrak train system, I noticed in the fine print of > the schedule that they accept palletized items up to 500 pounds > and can ship between about 100 stations. Is anyone familiar with > the rates and gotchas of this method? > > http://goo.gl/rg0Ki Check the archives; I know its been mentioned on this list before. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 29 18:54:21 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 16:54:21 -0700 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E5C26AD.4040205@bitsavers.org> On 8/29/11 2:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote: the isp that > mess.org is using is having routing issues > From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Aug 29 18:51:55 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 01:51:55 +0200 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5BB9B8.2010601@bitsavers.org> References: <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5BB9B8.2010601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110829235155.GB21248@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 09:09:28AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 8/29/11 8:40 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > >>Also sufficient: source code. Open source has an unconquerable advantage > >>here, over proprietary. > > > >I do not have complete faith about this in the long term. The open > >source folks tend to be a loose group of undisciplined volunteers, > >generally not long term thinkers, with only a very small segment > >interested in historic preservation. > > > > Who toss legacy hardware support at an alarming rate because it's too much > work. Linux is an extreme example of this. NetBSD pretty much the opposite. Well, so you run an older version. Just because the new version of the kernel doesn't support old hardware doesn't mean that the old version of the codebase magically disappears. > They also thrash on the 'fun' parts of systems (GNOME/KDE look and feel) Well, one doesn't _have_ to use KDE/GNOME. I've been using the same GUI setup now for 12+ years: X + windowmaker + $BROWSER + a metric ton of xterms. Still works just fine ;-) > and don't bother with the dirty, un-fun parts of making systems stable > for the real world. > > I don't know how far back they ever found it, but Stallman/FSF were hunting > for GNU distributions because they didn't have a complete archive of what > they had released. Yeah, looks like in the early days nobody really bothered to keep archives around. But the official hosting site for the Linux kernel (kernel.org) still keeps the source for the Linux kernel v1.0 around (building and running it, however, are a different animal). > I also don't agree that modern software systems are in a better state to > be preserved. In the 'old days' you could get a shrink-wrapped package that > was the entire deal, docs, and media. Today, it's a blob that comes off the > web and gets patched very frequently, as well as potentially being tied to > the mother-ship to be functional. There are dozens (hundreds?) of products > now that are devices that were tethered to dead back-end services > (Danger Sidekick). How do you even start to preserve this? And then there are software packages that only work when they can talk to activation servers run by the company selling the software. Good luck with that 20 years down the road. > The direction the world is heading with computers is making it very, very > difficult to preserve. Unfortunately, yes. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 29 19:03:42 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 20:03:42 -0400 Subject: Recovery of lost knowledge [was RE: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes!] In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE9C2.7000102@neurotica.com> <20110828185701.P49031@shell.lmi.net> <20110829134300.Q2360@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5C28DE.7010207@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/08/11 5:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > these archives should offer options to folks to send in a drive to get the > whole archive thus keeping it alive > Yes, imho all archives should advertise mirror options. --Toby > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> ITYM "to remember". IIRC, the last Egyptian scribe who could read and >>> write the script died in the 3rd Century CE; Champollion did his work >>> on the Rosetta stone in the very late 18th and early 19th, so at least >>> 1500 years--and it took another century to get some of the readings >> right. >> >> So, the loss happened quicker than I had thought, and the recovery took >> longer. >> >> >>> (Wearing my historical linguist hat today.) >> >> Thank you! >> >> >> >> > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 29 19:07:43 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 20:07:43 -0400 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts In-Reply-To: References: <201108291935.p7TJZmDn073383@billy.ezwind.net> <201108292028.p7TKSfDa075019@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E5C29CF.3000105@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/08/11 5:22 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> "World" meaning the 3D landscape? Or the players and their stuff? > > Yes, the content. Yes, we can probably archive the game engine, but I > doubt anyone is capturing and archiving the world as they play*. > You might enjoy this short story: http://www.cubeyterra.com/2010/10/the-oldbie/ (I think Second Life inspired) >> It's all in databases on servers. > > The issue is archiving the databases. For the games that have died > out, did anyone bother to save these databases? Or even just the > format and structure? > > * now waiting for the link for the WoW Real Time World Archive Project. > > -- > Will > > From mike at fenz.net Mon Aug 29 19:10:05 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:10:05 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hi everyone, I have an Apple II mainboard I'm trying fix. I really enjoy gettting these particular machines going, for some reason. Maybe it's that emphatic BEEP when they finally run up... anyway... This one has a pretty obvious fault, it sinks too much current on a yet-to-be-determined power supply line. Starting it up, the PSU goes into a startup/shutdown loop. The seller said he'd tested the PS in another machine and found it worked fine. I gave it a quick test and it did seem good, so I fitted another known-good PSU to the machine just to verify - same symptom with the new PSU. Just as a guess, I'm suspecting caps and RAM in that order, but it could be anything. I 've had very little time to play with it so far, but I'm pondering my next step. I've been considering something like this: http://damon4.com/Default.aspx?blogentryid=112 but my bench power supply is a bit basic (i.e. crap), voltage only goes down to 3V or so, and no adjustable max current. Not really any good for this approach. Also, I'm not sure if the Apple II (US DM Plus, in this case, 4116 RAM) needs the PS rails to come up in a certain order to avoid damage. Overall, perhaps a bit too violent for this situation. My ideas so far: 1. First thing I'll do when I get back to it is discover which PS output is being overloaded. That might eliminate a few suspects. 2. If I'm desperate and step 1 suggests it, remove all the RAM ICs. Doesn't take long, and I could also inspect the legs on the things, which seem to fail with surprising regularity. 3. Panic. Hopefully this doesn't involve removing every IC on the board, but I'd be willing if that's the safest bet. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but at the moment Google isn't being helpful with discussions on this list. Can anyone refresh my memory/point me at resources/make a sensible suggestion or two? Admittedly I'm at a really early stage without a great deal of info to put forward, but sometimes just discussing these things helps clarify the approach before I really dive into it. Cheers, Mike From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Aug 29 19:03:20 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 02:03:20 +0200 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCBBE.9040305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110830000320.GC21248@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 07:23:38PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'm sorry Al, but I have to disagree here. It's pretty rare for > > device support to be removed from the Linux kernel distribution. There > > are even ARCnet card drivers still in there. > > Will any current linux version run on an 80386 processor? I was under the > distinct impression that they don't (in fact they may not even run on an > 80486). At least Debian still ships 486 kernels, which comes in handy for a lot of folks whose embedded systems use some kind of 486 compatible CPU. For 386, well, you might have problems running straight current distros, as they tend to assume at least a 486, but if you rebuild the kernel (and maybe the userland, but that might not be needed), it should work. You are far more likely to run head on into the wall of ressource constraints. While I did run a carefully handcrafted Linux system on a 486 box with 4 MB of RAM as a mobile file server (old, crapped out laptop[0]) 11 years ago, modern distros tend to assume quite a bit of memory. Not many 386 machines with 32+ MB of memory around ... Kind regards, Alex. [0] Building that was fun. IIRC back then OpenBSD died in kernel init, NetBSD died before loading the installer, FreeBSD died in the installer and somehow I got Linux to boot. After stripping both kernel and running userland to the absolute minimum (IIRC, running user processes after boot where init & 2 gettys, after logging in on the console the machine was 4 MB deep in swap and paging all the time), I still managed to get around 150 .. 200 KB/s NFS read performance out of that box. Enough for listening to MP3s while working at a clients site ;-) -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Aug 29 19:18:07 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 20:18:07 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5C2C3F.9060800@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/08/11 2:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I think what he means is that open source file formats tend to be less >> opaque than others because you have the data definition and the >> associated behavior as open source code. > > That does not matter. My point is that open source projects have a > tendency to be sloppy and uncontrolled. Sure, there are some great > open source things out there, That's an understatement. Open source powers almost the entire web and its infrastructure. One wouldn't know when to stop listing: DNS, http, RDBMS, SMTP, just about every acronym out there has a best of breed open source server. Then we can talk about gcc, *BSD, Linux, ... Just all rubbish, isn't it. --Toby > but after they have had their run and > interest has waned, then maybe something bad happens to machines they > reside on, will that be the end? > > I think so. > > -- > Will > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 19:34:59 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1314664499.28525.YahooMailClassic@web121610.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 8/29/11, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > This one has a pretty obvious fault, it sinks too much > current on a > yet-to-be-determined power supply line. Starting it up, the > PSU goes into a > startup/shutdown loop. You can just use a multimeter to check the resistance of the power inputs to ground, to isolate which rail is shorted out. I'd definitely start by yanking out the RAM. RAM chips are common failures, and they're easy to plug in backwards too. Also, check to make sure nobody plugged in the CPU backwards or something. In most cases of shorted boards, it's definitely possible to find the problem without having to power up the board, by simply checking the resistance between power and ground. Fortunately, all the chips on the motherboard are socketed... -Ian From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 19:37:56 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:37:56 -0500 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4e5c30b9.a98aec0a.6c3d.071c@mx.google.com> I used to sell apple ]['s and repaired them, but seldom down to the component level. Except for the 74LS125 on the floppy drive. Users were always frying that by plugging the ribbon cable backwards, something you really had to work hard to do. Anyhow, I like the idea of checking all the caps. At 07:10 PM 8/29/2011, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I have an Apple II mainboard I'm trying fix. I really enjoy gettting these >particular machines going, for some reason. Maybe it's that emphatic BEEP >when they finally run up... anyway... > >This one has a pretty obvious fault, it sinks too much current on a >yet-to-be-determined power supply line. Starting it up, the PSU goes into a >startup/shutdown loop. The seller said he'd tested the PS in another >machine and found it worked fine. I gave it a quick test and it did seem >good, so I fitted another known-good PSU to the machine just to verify - >same symptom with the new PSU. Just as a guess, I'm suspecting caps and RAM >in that order, but it could be anything. > >I 've had very little time to play with it so far, but I'm pondering my >next step. I've been considering something like this: > >http://damon4.com/Default.aspx?blogentryid=112 > >but my bench power supply is a bit basic (i.e. crap), voltage only goes >down to 3V or so, and no adjustable max current. Not really any good for >this approach. Also, I'm not sure if the Apple II (US DM Plus, in this >case, 4116 RAM) needs the PS rails to come up in a certain order to avoid >damage. Overall, perhaps a bit too violent for this situation. > >My ideas so far: >1. First thing I'll do when I get back to it is discover which PS output is >being overloaded. That might eliminate a few suspects. >2. If I'm desperate and step 1 suggests it, remove all the RAM ICs. Doesn't >take long, and I could also inspect the legs on the things, which seem to >fail with surprising regularity. >3. Panic. Hopefully this doesn't involve removing every IC on the board, >but I'd be willing if that's the safest bet. > >I'm sure this has been discussed before, but at the moment Google isn't >being helpful with discussions on this list. Can anyone refresh my >memory/point me at resources/make a sensible suggestion or two? Admittedly >I'm at a really early stage without a great deal of info to put forward, >but sometimes just discussing these things helps clarify the approach >before I really dive into it. > >Cheers, >Mike 360 . [Commentary] There is no idea so stupid that you can't find a professor who believes it. --H.L. Mencken NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From mike at fenz.net Mon Aug 29 19:45:22 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:45:22 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <1314664499.28525.YahooMailClassic@web121610.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1314664499.28525.YahooMailClassic@web121610.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4530250135246df90a4e38f8854f905b@vodafone.co.nz> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:34:59 -0700 (PDT), Mr Ian Primus wrote: > You can just use a multimeter to check the resistance of the power inputs > to ground, to isolate which rail is shorted out. Yes, true. Though I don't know if it's a true short, or only low enough resistance that it trips the PS's protection. Of course, knowing the output currents of the PS, the voltage of the PS output in question, and the plain resistance of the input on the mainboard, I could probably take a pretty good guess. > I'd definitely start by yanking out the RAM. RAM chips are common failures, > and they're easy to plug in backwards too. Also, check to make sure nobody > plugged in the CPU backwards or something. Right, I can give that a go. I doubt the machine's been physically confused in that way, as the seller says that it was working when last powered up, then failed on the next power up (a few years later). I do trust the seller, but I'm also open to possibilities of that sort. Will have a close inspect, reversed chips especially would be easy to spot. To be honest, I do expect a number of failed 4116s as well. They seem to die randomly and regularly. I should really try to buy a bunch of spares, but I've given up on buying NOS and pulls from China. They seem to arrive jammed into chunks of polystyrene with no anti-static protection, and very dead. > In most cases of shorted boards, it's definitely possible to find the > problem without having to power up the board, by simply checking the > resistance between power and ground. Fortunately, all the chips on the > motherboard are socketed... Yes - I think there might be one un-socketed IC on this board, but what are the chances it'd be that one that was faulty? I think there are popular laws that say the chances are about 100%, but I'm going to ignore them for now. Cheers, Mike From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Aug 29 19:47:00 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:47:00 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6C8A69B3C7C049E7A8135483FEE730D6@massey.ac.nz> I'm not sure if it's the same on the Apple II as it is the Apple IIe, but a shorted cap on the mainboard near the PSU connector caused one of my IIe's to appear dead (apart from ticking noises in the PSU). Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike van Bokhoven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 12:10 PM Subject: Apple II over-current issue > Hi everyone, > > I have an Apple II mainboard I'm trying fix. I really enjoy gettting these > particular machines going, for some reason. Maybe it's that emphatic BEEP > when they finally run up... anyway... > > This one has a pretty obvious fault, it sinks too much current on a > yet-to-be-determined power supply line. Starting it up, the PSU goes into > a > startup/shutdown loop. The seller said he'd tested the PS in another > machine and found it worked fine. I gave it a quick test and it did seem > good, so I fitted another known-good PSU to the machine just to verify - > same symptom with the new PSU. Just as a guess, I'm suspecting caps and > RAM > in that order, but it could be anything. > > I 've had very little time to play with it so far, but I'm pondering my > next step. I've been considering something like this: > > http://damon4.com/Default.aspx?blogentryid=112 > > but my bench power supply is a bit basic (i.e. crap), voltage only goes > down to 3V or so, and no adjustable max current. Not really any good for > this approach. Also, I'm not sure if the Apple II (US DM Plus, in this > case, 4116 RAM) needs the PS rails to come up in a certain order to avoid > damage. Overall, perhaps a bit too violent for this situation. > > My ideas so far: > 1. First thing I'll do when I get back to it is discover which PS output > is > being overloaded. That might eliminate a few suspects. > 2. If I'm desperate and step 1 suggests it, remove all the RAM ICs. > Doesn't > take long, and I could also inspect the legs on the things, which seem to > fail with surprising regularity. > 3. Panic. Hopefully this doesn't involve removing every IC on the board, > but I'd be willing if that's the safest bet. > > I'm sure this has been discussed before, but at the moment Google isn't > being helpful with discussions on this list. Can anyone refresh my > memory/point me at resources/make a sensible suggestion or two? Admittedly > I'm at a really early stage without a great deal of info to put forward, > but sometimes just discussing these things helps clarify the approach > before I really dive into it. > > Cheers, > Mike > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 29 19:50:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:50:18 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110830000320.GC21248@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4E5BCBBE.9040305@neurotica.com>, , <20110830000320.GC21248@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4E5BD15A.31045.20553E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Aug 2011 at 2:03, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > At least Debian still ships 486 kernels, which comes in handy for a > lot of folks whose embedded systems use some kind of 486 compatible > CPU. Actually, there's a gap between 486 and 686 (including P1, AMD K2/3 CPUs and a bunch of other chips) that's not supported by the latest popular distros (Ubuntu, etc.), so Debian's very welcome. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 20:01:20 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 21:01:20 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5C2C3F.9060800@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5C2C3F.9060800@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: > That's an understatement. Open source powers almost the entire web and > its infrastructure. One wouldn't know when to stop listing: DNS, http, > RDBMS, SMTP, just about every acronym out there has a best of breed open > source server. Then we can talk about gcc, *BSD, Linux, ... > > Just all rubbish, isn't it. Cripes, another person twisting my words to the extreme. There's a sound that starts with P... -- Will From mike at fenz.net Mon Aug 29 20:04:10 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:04:10 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4e5c30b9.a98aec0a.6c3d.071c@mx.google.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> <4e5c30b9.a98aec0a.6c3d.071c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <219e0a9418f0efab33ef03dec62b5c66@vodafone.co.nz> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:37:56 -0500, Tom wrote: > I used to sell apple ]['s and repaired them, but > seldom down to the component level. Except for > the 74LS125 on the floppy drive. Users were > always frying that by plugging the ribbon cable > backwards, something you really had to work hard to do. > > Anyhow, I like the idea of checking all the caps. True - though there are a couple of problems. I would suspect the HF smoothing caps, situated near current sinks (rows of RAM etc). However, 1. I've never seen one fail on an original Apple II MB, and 2. there's a bunch of them in parallel so I can't test them individually without lifting one leg on each, which would be annoying to have to do. Note that my memory of how those caps are laid out on this board is very hazy, and in fact this is the very first II Plus board I've worked on, all the others being Europlus (virtually the same, but still). Anyway, I may end up having to do that, of my RAM investigations are unhelpful. And I should also be able to tell which PS rail I have to concentrate on too, which should help. Historically speaking - I used to do the same as you in the late 80s/early 90s. I'd buy up faulty Apple IIs and clones, repair them, and sell them at a profit to fund my bad habits when I was at school. At the time I didn't have a very good idea of what I was doing, but it was a good learning experience. I'd love to track down some clones again, I only have a couple of very conventional ones at the moment. There were some great ones, like the clone MB in an PC/XT style case (looked identical to an XT), with an XT-lookalike keyboard as well. And the MedFly, which I think was Australian. And there was one made by the company that eventually became Acer too I seem to recall (what was their name back then... damn), which was a nice-looking thing, but not 100% Apple-compatible. Cheers, Mike From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 29 20:04:54 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <6C8A69B3C7C049E7A8135483FEE730D6@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <1314666294.67981.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 8/29/11, Terry Stewart wrote: > I'm not sure if it's the same on the > Apple II as it is the Apple IIe, but a shorted cap on the > mainboard near the PSU connector caused one of my IIe's to > appear dead (apart from ticking noises in the PSU). Probably not. The II/II+ does not have the tantalum capacitors that the IIe does. My money is on a chip that's plugged in backwards, or a shorted RAM chip. -Ian From mike at fenz.net Mon Aug 29 20:08:31 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:08:31 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <6C8A69B3C7C049E7A8135483FEE730D6@massey.ac.nz> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> <6C8A69B3C7C049E7A8135483FEE730D6@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <3ae7a3e32232012422436f855420b6e5@vodafone.co.nz> On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:47:00 +1200, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > I'm not sure if it's the same on the Apple II as it is the Apple IIe, but a > shorted cap on the mainboard near the PSU connector caused one of my IIe's > to appear dead (apart from ticking noises in the PSU). Yes, absolutely possible. Was that an electrolytic? I have a few //e MBs with this same symptom, but I have such a gigantic pile of good //e MBs that I haven't tried troubleshooting many faulty ones yet. My real interest is the II+ and earlier. On a related note, sorry about sniping this machine out from under you! I just noticed the auction when I had a moment's downtime at work, very very lucky timing, I think it was only 5 or 10 minutes before it ended. The spare KB that I got with it (OK, $60...) was absolutely beautiful, it really looks like NOS. Worth every cent, even if it didn't have the encoder board with it. If I can find a really nice //+ case, maybe I'll build a spotless display II+. Cheers, Mike From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Aug 29 20:11:41 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:11:41 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> <4e5c30b9.a98aec0a.6c3d.071c@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <9725E1B07ED24C309ABD74A702F97E10@massey.ac.nz> Yep, been there, done that! http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-03-23-teac-apple-disk-drive-repairs.htm Tez ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 12:37 PM Subject: Re: Apple II over-current issue I used to sell apple ]['s and repaired them, but seldom down to the component level. Except for the 74LS125 on the floppy drive. Users were always frying that by plugging the ribbon cable backwards, something you really had to work hard to do. Anyhow, I like the idea of checking all the caps. At 07:10 PM 8/29/2011, you wrote: >Hi everyone, > >I have an Apple II mainboard I'm trying fix. I really enjoy gettting these >particular machines going, for some reason. Maybe it's that emphatic BEEP >when they finally run up... anyway... > >This one has a pretty obvious fault, it sinks too much current on a >yet-to-be-determined power supply line. Starting it up, the PSU goes into a >startup/shutdown loop. The seller said he'd tested the PS in another >machine and found it worked fine. I gave it a quick test and it did seem >good, so I fitted another known-good PSU to the machine just to verify - >same symptom with the new PSU. Just as a guess, I'm suspecting caps and RAM >in that order, but it could be anything. > >I 've had very little time to play with it so far, but I'm pondering my >next step. I've been considering something like this: > >http://damon4.com/Default.aspx?blogentryid=112 > >but my bench power supply is a bit basic (i.e. crap), voltage only goes >down to 3V or so, and no adjustable max current. Not really any good for >this approach. Also, I'm not sure if the Apple II (US DM Plus, in this >case, 4116 RAM) needs the PS rails to come up in a certain order to avoid >damage. Overall, perhaps a bit too violent for this situation. > >My ideas so far: >1. First thing I'll do when I get back to it is discover which PS output is >being overloaded. That might eliminate a few suspects. >2. If I'm desperate and step 1 suggests it, remove all the RAM ICs. Doesn't >take long, and I could also inspect the legs on the things, which seem to >fail with surprising regularity. >3. Panic. Hopefully this doesn't involve removing every IC on the board, >but I'd be willing if that's the safest bet. > >I'm sure this has been discussed before, but at the moment Google isn't >being helpful with discussions on this list. Can anyone refresh my >memory/point me at resources/make a sensible suggestion or two? Admittedly >I'm at a really early stage without a great deal of info to put forward, >but sometimes just discussing these things helps clarify the approach >before I really dive into it. > >Cheers, >Mike 360 . [Commentary] There is no idea so stupid that you can't find a professor who believes it. --H.L. Mencken NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com . N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) . Second Tops (Set Dancing) . FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W . Elevation 815' . Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst . Open-source Dude . Musician . Registered Linux User 385531 From mike at fenz.net Mon Aug 29 20:24:47 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:24:47 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <1314666294.67981.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1314666294.67981.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 18:04:54 -0700 (PDT), Mr Ian Primus >> I'm not sure if it's the same on the >> Apple II as it is the Apple IIe, but a shorted cap on the >> mainboard near the PSU connector caused one of my IIe's to >> appear dead (apart from ticking noises in the PSU). > Probably not. The II/II+ does not have the tantalum capacitors that the IIe > does. My money is on a chip that's plugged in backwards, or a shorted RAM > chip. I'm becoming more hopeful that yanking all the RAM will resolve the short. >From that point on, it's not a tricky process, I'm quite experienced at identifying bad 4116s. Step #1, tonight I hope! I'll leave the first 16k bank in place and pull banks 2 and 3. It should start fine with just 16k. If it still does the same, will pull bank 1 as well and see if the PSU starts up at least. If so, I'll put the contents of old bank 1 aside and populate it with ICs from 2 and 3 (or perhaps known-good ICs from another //+ - more sensible, I don't know if the memory in banks 2 and 3 is any good either). Cheers, Mike From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Aug 29 21:25:38 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 21:25:38 -0500 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: what idiotic comments????? On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > people bitching about my use of u >> > > ...and your idiotic comments... > From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 29 21:35:23 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 21:35:23 -0500 Subject: Atari going after retro community? In-Reply-To: <1314629419.11386.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4E53DD30.7090107@neurotica.com> <4E538569.32186.54E0B2@cclist.sydex.com> <4E53F32A.9070504@neurotica.com> <4E5471DB.4080701@neurotica.com> <4E555245.9090101@verizon.net> <4E5559BB.9000404@neurotica.com> <4E558DCC.90603@jbrain.com> <4E55BB99.2040902@verizon.net> <1314623138.76113.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4E5B9E68.6040207@verizon.net> <1314629419.11386.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E5C4C6B.8070803@jbrain.com> On 8/29/2011 9:50 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > No one posted the links.. Thanks for doing that. From mike at fenz.net Tue Aug 30 01:22:31 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 18:22:31 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <9725E1B07ED24C309ABD74A702F97E10@massey.ac.nz> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> <4e5c30b9.a98aec0a.6c3d.071c@mx.google.com> <9725E1B07ED24C309ABD74A702F97E10@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4E5C81A7.6040508@fenz.net> Curses... all memory out, problem persists. Noted that one of the 4116s is missing a leg, and another has had a prosthetic leg added at some point. Next step: turns out +5V is shorted to ground. Looks a lot like one of the (presumably tantalum?) +5V HF noise capacitors has shorted. Anyone know any tricks that could save me from having to unsolder and test them one by one? There are a lot of the things, >30 at a glance. Will persevere... Cheers, Mike From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 30 01:52:53 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:52:53 +0200 Subject: PDP-1 Chair Message-ID: <20110830065253.GA26775@Update.UU.SE> Hi All I've been searching for info on the PDP-1 chair: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102662827 What I would like to know is what make and design it really is. Did DEC actually manufacture it themselves? Or did they buy it from someone else? By the looks of it, it also came with the PDP-11 and PDP-7 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pdp7-oslo-2005.jpeg http://lh3.ggpht.com/_axaTeNSveZc/Sks440fIieI/AAAAAAAAAEg/UsaE3a1Zv-U/pdp11.jpg /Pontus From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 02:26:36 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:26:36 +0100 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E5C81A7.6040508@fenz.net> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> <4e5c30b9.a98aec0a.6c3d.071c@mx.google.com> <9725E1B07ED24C309ABD74A702F97E10@massey.ac.nz> <4E5C81A7.6040508@fenz.net> Message-ID: At this stage you need a good dvm (many digits) with good low resistance measurement facilities. pick some 0v place make a good connection to the dvm and them go around the 5v line looking for the smallest resistance to 0v, You are actually measuring the track resistance and minimizing the amount of track to the short eventually one finds an area, now do the inverse use that as the connection point and measure the 0v resistance to that point you should arrive at the other side of the faulty part or very near. One can use this method to find pcb solder shorts during manufacture and etching fault shorts too. Dave Caroline On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:22 AM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Curses... all memory out, problem persists. Noted that one of the 4116s is > missing a leg, and another has had a prosthetic leg added at some point. > Next step: turns out +5V is shorted to ground. Looks a lot like one of the > (presumably tantalum?) +5V HF noise capacitors has shorted. Anyone know any > tricks that could save me from having to unsolder and test them one by one? > There are a lot of the things, >30 at a glance. Will persevere... > > Cheers, > Mike > > From mike at fenz.net Tue Aug 30 07:29:43 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 00:29:43 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <1314666294.67981.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1314666294.67981.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E5CD7B7.40907@fenz.net> On 30/08/2011 1:04 p.m., Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Probably not. The II/II+ does not have the tantalum capacitors that > the IIe does. My money is on a chip that's plugged in backwards, or a > shorted RAM chip. -Ian Well, as it turns out, it's a bit more puzzling than that. After finding that removing the RAM didn't help, I decided to take a closer look at the board. First step - remove the top shell of the case. I'm always careful about this, because it's pretty easy to damage the keyboard cable if you just pull everything off. So, I was surprised to find that the keyboard cable wasn't plugged in at all, just floating loose. Also a bit concerned, because obviously the machine couldn't have been working like that, though the seller said it was working before being put into storage. Oh well. On the upside, the short to ground had now mysteriously vanished, allowing the PSU to start up fine. Don't we all love faults that disappear on their own... well, no, we don't. Anyway, I now had a board that takes power, so I refitted one row of RAM to give it 16k, and powered it up again, hoping for a happy beep and video display. Optimistic. As it turns out, it now goes -click- from the speaker, and I saw a fixed but apparently random (and different each time i switch the machine on) pattern of dots and dashes on the monitor. And, for some reason, three of the four 74S161Ns (at D11, 13, 14, I think they drive the video output) get far hotter than I'd expect. I pulled the RAM again just to see what'd happen, the behaviour stayed exactly the same. So I figured I'd just replace the 161s with known good ones; the pins on all four looked a bit corroded anyway, so probably a reasonable idea. Having done that, I got a recognisable video display, though it's still not running properly - just a bunch of ? characters, even after fitting RAM. As it turned out, it was the cold 161 that was faulty, the ones that became worryingly hot appeared fine (checked by fitting them to another II+ board, just to make sure). So, I guess that's progress. Next thing I'll do is test some RAM for the machine, make sure I give it a good set of 4116s to work with, and go from there. Cheers, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 30 09:35:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:35:06 -0700 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E5C81A7.6040508@fenz.net> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <9725E1B07ED24C309ABD74A702F97E10@massey.ac.nz>, <4E5C81A7.6040508@fenz.net> Message-ID: <4E5C92AA.31698.CD1BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Aug 2011 at 18:22, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Curses... all memory out, problem persists. Noted that one of the > 4116s is missing a leg, and another has had a prosthetic leg added at > some point. Next step: turns out +5V is shorted to ground. Looks a lot > like one of the (presumably tantalum?) +5V HF noise capacitors has > shorted. Anyone know any tricks that could save me from having to > unsolder and test them one by one? There are a lot of the things, >30 > at a glance. Will persevere... Put a nice husky supply on the +5 until the tantalum to go BOOM--or at least until it feels warm? Maybe not so silly--I can't begin to count the times that a bad cap has given itself away in just that manner. --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Aug 30 09:38:40 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E5C92AA.31698.CD1BD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <9725E1B07ED24C309ABD74A702F97E10@massey.ac.nz>, <4E5C81A7.6040508@fenz.net> <4E5C92AA.31698.CD1BD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Aug 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Aug 2011 at 18:22, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > >> Curses... all memory out, problem persists. Noted that one of the >> 4116s is missing a leg, and another has had a prosthetic leg added at >> some point. Next step: turns out +5V is shorted to ground. Looks a lot >> like one of the (presumably tantalum?) +5V HF noise capacitors has >> shorted. Anyone know any tricks that could save me from having to >> unsolder and test them one by one? There are a lot of the things, >30 >> at a glance. Will persevere... > > Put a nice husky supply on the +5 until the tantalum to go BOOM--or > at least until it feels warm? > > Maybe not so silly--I can't begin to count the times that a bad cap > has given itself away in just that manner. ...and don't forget your eye protection (seriously). Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 09:55:28 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1314716128.64309.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 8/30/11, Mike Loewen wrote: > > Put a nice husky supply on the +5 until the tantalum > to go BOOM--or > > at least until it feels warm? > > > > Maybe not so silly--I can't begin to count the times > that a bad cap > > has given itself away in just that manner. > > ? ? ...and don't forget your eye protection > (seriously). Except that there aren't any tantalum capacitors in a II+. -Ian From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 30 07:41:58 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 05:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > people bitching about my use of u > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> WTF? >> >> context? >> >> or just on general principles? >> Stop top posting and we'll discuss it. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 30 10:14:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 08:14:40 -0700 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <1314716128.64309.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: , <1314716128.64309.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E5C9BF0.5275.310AA0@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Aug 2011 at 7:55, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Except that there aren't any tantalum capacitors in a II+. Doesn't matter--it'll work just as well with film capacitors. Electrolytics, on the other hand might be too dramatic... --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Aug 30 10:27:23 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:27:23 -0500 Subject: Web based digital preservation efforts In-Reply-To: <4E5C29CF.3000105@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201108291935.p7TJZmDn073383@billy.ezwind.net> <201108292028.p7TKSfDa075019@billy.ezwind.net> <4E5C29CF.3000105@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201108301535.p7UFZogl005595@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:07 PM 8/29/2011, Toby Thain wrote: >You might enjoy this short story: >http://www.cubeyterra.com/2010/10/the-oldbie/ >(I think Second Life inspired) The problem is, you're interacting with stuff that other users have consented to place in that world. You might've enjoyed SecondLife's Gardens of Apollo, but when that space's creator can no longer afford to pay for their portion of the virtual world, it'll disappear. Maybe the fine print of the user agreement would allow SL or its intellectual property successors to revive what you created, but that could trigger a cascade of subsequent IP disputes. - John From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 10:36:27 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:36:27 -0400 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5BBF87.17207.1BFB2C7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com>, <20110829154708.N6114@shell.lmi.net>, <4E5C1F23.3050806@jetnet.ab.ca> <4E5BBF87.17207.1BFB2C7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E5D037B.8090302@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> O >> >> A > > I, I, I... (Newcastle?) Y-I. Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 30 11:08:50 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 09:08:50 -0700 Subject: PDP-1 Chair In-Reply-To: <20110830065253.GA26775@Update.UU.SE> References: <20110830065253.GA26775@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4E5D0B12.4090504@bitsavers.org> On 8/29/11 11:52 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi All > > I've been searching for info on the PDP-1 chair: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102662827 > > What I would like to know is what make and design it really is. Did DEC > actually manufacture it themselves? Or did they buy it from someone > else? > It is a generic Eames-style mid century chair. I'll look, but I don't remember the manufacturer was anywhere on it. I did a LOT of research on this before we were offered a real one from a PDP-1. It was not from one of the big name makers like Herman Miller. I'll try to find my notes, I think I remember that the original manufacturer was in Chicago. It is also a lot smaller than it appears to be in the pictures. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 12:39:11 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 12:39:11 -0500 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: and that means what? On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > people bitching about my use of u >> >> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> >>>> WTF? >>>> >>> >>> context? >>> >>> or just on general principles? >>> >>> > Stop top posting and we'll discuss it. :D > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical > minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which > holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd > by the clean end. > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 30 12:53:19 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: > and that means what? > > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >> people bitching about my use of u >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> >>>>> WTF? >>>>> >>>> >>>> context? >>>> >>>> or just on general principles? >>>> >>>> >> Stop top posting and we'll discuss it. :D >> It means your reading comprehension skills are sub-par. http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 13:00:47 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:00:47 -0400 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5D254F.1020402@gmail.com> Adrian Stoness wrote: > and that means what? You see how my text is below yours? That's the way it should be. You are putting your text above the text to which you are replying. Peace... Sridhar > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 7:41 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> >> people bitching about my use of u >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> >>>>> WTF? >>>>> >>>> >>>> context? >>>> >>>> or just on general principles? >>>> >>>> >> Stop top posting and we'll discuss it. :D >> >> g. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 30 13:01:52 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:01:52 -0700 Subject: Tony Sale passed Message-ID: <4E5D2590.6050901@bitsavers.org> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14720180 From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Aug 30 13:48:06 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:48:06 -0700 Subject: Tony Sale passed In-Reply-To: <4E5D2590.6050901@bitsavers.org> References: <4E5D2590.6050901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thank you for sharing this, Al. Rich Alderson and I had the privilege and pleasure of meeting Tony last year at The National Museum of Computing. As he showed us the Colossus, he bounced around like a kid showing off his newest toys to a close friend. It is hard to believe that such a vital spirit is no longer with us. Rest in peace, Tony. -- Ian King, Living Computer Museum ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow [aek at bitsavers.org] Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 11:01 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Tony Sale passed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14720180 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 13:52:48 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 13:52:48 -0500 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5D254F.1020402@gmail.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <4E5D254F.1020402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E5D3180.4010903@gmail.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Adrian Stoness wrote: >> and that means what? > > You see how my text is below yours? That's the way it should be. You > are putting your text above the text to which you are replying. Agreed... although ordering is a funny thing - someone should really tell US road maintainers so that they cease writing things like "ahead stop" on their roads ;-) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 30 13:58:06 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 11:58:06 -0700 Subject: Tony Sale passed In-Reply-To: References: <4E5D2590.6050901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E5D32BE.9040403@bitsavers.org> On 8/30/11 11:48 AM, Ian King wrote: > Thank you for sharing this, Al. Rich Alderson and I had the privilege and pleasure of meeting Tony last year at The National Museum of Computing. When our film crew was stuck in London because of the volcano, he went out of his way to help us get HD video of Collosus on very short notice. Video here: http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/birth-of-the-computer/4/82/2218 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 13:57:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:57:54 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> On 08/29/2011 04:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I'm in the process of getting a mongrel Sun 3/400 machine running as a host for my Symbolics UX400. The UX400 support software requires SunOS 4.1 which I used to have on CD, but I now appear to have misplaced. (I have a copy of 4.1.4, but it only supports Sun4 machines > ) > > Anyone have a copy they could make an image of? (and yes, I've confirmed that this machine will boot from CD.) The last release of SunOS to support 68K ("sun3x" kernel architecture for the 68030-based machines, the 3/80 ad 3/400, all others are "sun3") is 4.1.1_U1. I have boot tape images, but not a CDROM image. I don't think I've ever seen it on CDROM for 68K. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 14:04:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:04:55 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5C2C3F.9060800@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5C2C3F.9060800@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D3457.60405@neurotica.com> On 08/29/2011 08:18 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > That's an understatement. Open source powers almost the entire web and > its infrastructure. One wouldn't know when to stop listing: DNS, http, > RDBMS, SMTP, just about every acronym out there has a best of breed open > source server. Then we can talk about gcc, *BSD, Linux, ... Here's one area in which we agree wholeheartedly. It's really the only practical way to get that sort of stuff done. That has always been the case, and it likely always will be. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 14:05:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:05:24 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5C2C3F.9060800@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D3474.7050106@neurotica.com> On 08/29/2011 09:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> That's an understatement. Open source powers almost the entire web and >> its infrastructure. One wouldn't know when to stop listing: DNS, http, >> RDBMS, SMTP, just about every acronym out there has a best of breed open >> source server. Then we can talk about gcc, *BSD, Linux, ... >> >> Just all rubbish, isn't it. > > Cripes, another person twisting my words to the extreme. > > There's a sound that starts with P... soda -> keyboard -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 14:07:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:07:40 -0400 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5D34FC.5060302@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2011 08:41 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> people bitching about my use of u >> >> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>> WTF? >>> >>> context? >>> >>> or just on general principles? >>> > > Stop top posting and we'll discuss it. :D Oh good grief, stop picking on the kid. Please remember he's about half the age of most everyone on here, and the whole illiteracy thing is pretty common (if not ubiquitous) in his generation. I vouch for Adrian's coolness and great potential. I know him from another list (8-bit Heathkit stuff) and I'm the one who suggested that he join us here. (ObHint: the 'u' crap drives me ape shit as well ;)) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 14:24:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:24:40 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5D38F8.7070309@neurotica.com> On 08/29/2011 02:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm sorry Al, but I have to disagree here. It's pretty rare for >> device support to be removed from the Linux kernel distribution. There >> are even ARCnet card drivers still in there. > > Will any current linux version run on an 80386 processor? I was under the > distinct impression that they don't (in fact they may not even run on an > 80486). The "distros" may not, but the code base certainly does. Remember Linux is used in a great many embedded devices. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Aug 30 14:55:00 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:55:00 +0200 Subject: PDP-1 Chair In-Reply-To: <4E5D0B12.4090504@bitsavers.org> References: <20110830065253.GA26775@Update.UU.SE> <4E5D0B12.4090504@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110830195500.GA18507@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 09:08:50AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > I'll try to find my notes, I think I remember that the original > manufacturer was in Chicago. I would appreciate it. I'm hoping that knowing the right keywords will help me find one. I assume it might not be easy if you had to do lots of research before aquiring one. > It is also a lot smaller than it appears to be in the pictures. It looks rather big in some pictures. But small is good, then it wont take up precious rack space :) Kind Regards, Pontus. Ps. This one comes fairly close, but no cigar: http://www.thegoodmod.com/shop/executive-danish-modern-chair/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 15:14:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:14:53 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> On 08/29/2011 08:49 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> no, Toby and I are speculating that technical know-how and literacy could >>> lose out to the forces of idiocy. >> >> Well...with that I cannot disagree. But, I have to think that JFIF, >> PNG, and GIF file specs should be able to survive > > Nobody is disagreeing with you on such obvious cases. But those are the ones we're talking about. If people are saving images in weird, undocumented, known-by-a-handful-of-people image formats, they're effectively screwing themselves (and their images) in the future. All the smart people in the world can't save idiots from themselves. Much of the world is dysfunctional due to stupidity; there will always be some casualties because of this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 14:29:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:29:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Enlargers (was: eBay... Yikes!) In-Reply-To: <20110829132315.T2360@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 29, 11 01:24:18 pm Message-ID: > > > > Anyone know a good source for hard rubber trays or a good replacement? > > How much would you have to modify Apple ][ cases? Too much. They have metal baseplates (which would be attacked by many chemicals) and have assorted slots, holes, etc whick will leak. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 14:32:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:32:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5B9BCD.1922.13424B4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Aug 29, 11 02:01:49 pm Message-ID: > > But to maintain my old curmudgeon certification, I guess I'll need to > > add that contemporary CMS and blog software tends to frustrate my > > needs and desires. I'd like to pour my brain and ramblings into a > > web, but I keep wanting something that's more like a newspaper or an > > encyclopedia and not a blog. > > Yes, and it would earn the gratitude of many conservators and > archivists. I have long wished that my brain had either a SCSI or ethernet port (RS232 would not have enough bandwidth IMHO) so I could make a backup of it. There must be some useful stuff in there... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 14:36:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:36:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> from "John Foust" at Aug 29, 11 02:49:30 pm Message-ID: > On my recent trip, I saw a fellow carrying a desktop computer and > LCD monitor as carry-ons - with no box. I havre no idea waht the official restrictuions are, but I've carried the following on British trains (on serparate occasions) : An IBM PC/AT (got the comment from a fellow traveller 'That's some laptop' ;-)) A DEC RS02 + 2 large bags of UNibus boards and printsets A complete GT40 An AR88 (RCA communcations receiver) A complete EEC rainbow with keyboard and mono monitor A complete Torch XXX system and spares A Philips P850 An HP9100 and HP9815 Doubtless many other medium-sized computer systems... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 15:12:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:12:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Aug 30, 11 08:26:36 am Message-ID: > > At this stage you need a good dvm (many digits) with good low > resistance measurement facilities. > pick some 0v place make a good connection to the dvm and them go > around the 5v line looking for the smallest resistance to 0v, You are > actually measuring the track resistance and minimizing the amount of > track to the short eventually one finds an area, now do the inverse > use that as the connection point and measure the 0v resistance to that > point you should arrive at the other side of the faulty part or very > near. This is very difficult to do on a board with power and ground planes since the reisstance is very low and you can't 'slide along' tje track. With some many effective parallel paths in the power/ground planes, you can't really 'home in' on the problem anyway/ You _might_ be able to do it uins a 4-wire technique. Apply a current source (voltage limited to 5V!) between the power inptu conenctions and measure the voltage across each dfecoupling capacitor in turn. The faulty one will be the lowest (or even 0 if it's a dead short). But you need a good millivoltmeter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 14:53:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:53:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Aug 30, 11 12:10:05 pm Message-ID: > > Hi everyone, > > I have an Apple II mainboard I'm trying fix. I really enjoy gettting these > particular machines going, for some reason. Maybe it's that emphatic BEEP > when they finally run up... anyway... Each to his pwn :-) > > This one has a pretty obvious fault, it sinks too much current on a > yet-to-be-determined power supply line. Starting it up, the PSU goes into a > startup/shutdown loop. The seller said he'd tested the PS in another OK, I assume you know it's the mainboard (you've remvoed all expansion boards and unplugged the kebyaord cable). > machine and found it worked fine. I gave it a quick test and it did seem > good, so I fitted another known-good PSU to the machine just to verify - > same symptom with the new PSU. Just as a guess, I'm suspecting caps and RAM > in that order, but it could be anything. > > I 've had very little time to play with it so far, but I'm pondering my > next step. I've been considering something like this: > > http://damon4.com/Default.aspx?blogentryid=112 > > but my bench power supply is a bit basic (i.e. crap), voltage only goes > down to 3V or so, and no adjustable max current. Not really any good for > this approach. Also, I'm not sure if the Apple II (US DM Plus, in this > case, 4116 RAM) needs the PS rails to come up in a certain order to avoid > damage. Overall, perhaps a bit too violent for this situation. > > My ideas so far: > 1. First thing I'll do when I get back to it is discover which PS output is > being overloaded. That might eliminate a few suspects. Sometimes an analogue voltmeter will 'kick' on all PSU outputs except one, that one is the one that's shorted. Alternatively, pull the RAMs (the only thing that cares about multiple supply rails IIRC) disconenct one PSU output at a time at the 6 pin connecotr and apply a suitable dummy load to it. If you find an output that, when disconnected, allows the PSU to come up, you know that's the one that's overcurrenting. > 2. If I'm desperate and step 1 suggests it, remove all the RAM ICs. Doesn't > take long, and I could also inspect the legs on the things, which seem to > fail with surprising regularity. > 3. Panic. Hopefully this doesn't involve removing every IC on the board, > but I'd be willing if that's the safest bet. IIRC the ICs on an Apple ][ mainboard are all socketed. It doesn't take that long to pull the lot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 15:01:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:01:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E5C81A7.6040508@fenz.net> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Aug 30, 11 06:22:31 pm Message-ID: > Curses... all memory out, problem persists. Noted that one of the 4116s > is missing a leg, and another has had a prosthetic leg added at some > point. Next step: turns out +5V is shorted to ground. Looks a lot like > one of the (presumably tantalum?) +5V HF noise capacitors has shorted. > Anyone know any tricks that could save me from having to unsolder and > test them one by one? There are a lot of the things, >30 at a glance. > Will persevere... > 30 is not 'a lot'. It shouldn't take more than a minute to desoder one end of one, check if it's shorted/leaky with a multimeter, and solder it back. That's only half an hour... -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Aug 30 15:32:28 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:32:28 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> <6C8A69B3C7C049E7A8135483FEE730D6@massey.ac.nz> <3ae7a3e32232012422436f855420b6e5@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: <3DC902199EA44E14A89AD63C06E45829@massey.ac.nz> > On a related note, sorry about sniping this machine out from under you! I > just noticed the auction when I had a moment's downtime at work, very very > lucky timing, I think it was only 5 or 10 minutes before it ended. .... Hi Mike, Are you referring to the $60 Apple II+ on New Zealand's Trade Me a week or so ago? If so, I didn't realise it was you that clinched it. No worries though. I already have a nice Apple II+ and my bid was just so I would have a spare board for parts. With shipping costs between islands, I was lukewarm on it anyway, which it why my bid was no higher than the initial listing price. Cheers Terry (Tez) From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 15:38:24 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:38:24 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5D4A40.3050202@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I have long wished that my brain had either a SCSI or ethernet port > (RS232 would not have enough bandwidth IMHO) so I could make a backup of > it. There must be some useful stuff in there... I'm not sure SCSI or ethernet could do it in a reasonable amount of time. I don't fancy sitting in a chair with a wire plugged into my head for a couple of days. Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 30 15:46:40 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 22:46:40 +0200 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20110830224640.2c95e1ab.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 13:07:52 -0700 Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone have a copy they could make an image of? http://www.sun3arc.org/ BTW: Back in the day an institute at the local university run lots of Symbolics machines and later the Sun 3 / 4 "coprocessors" like the UX400... The person behind sun3arc.org is an alumnus of this university with close connections to sayed institute... Small world. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 30 15:47:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:47:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Aug 30, 11 04:14:53 pm Message-ID: > But those are the ones we're talking about. If people are saving > images in weird, undocumented, known-by-a-handful-of-people image > formats, they're effectively screwing themselves (and their images) in > the future. So everybody who used digital image processing systems before JFIF(JPEG), etc became a standaard was 'screwing themselvae's and is an idiot? -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Aug 30 16:02:24 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 23:02:24 +0200 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCBBE.9040305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110830230224.f74d10e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:23:38 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Will any current linux version run on an 80386 processor? I think even NetBSD has dumped 386 support. I run NetBSD 5.0 on a 486DX25 laptop with 4 MB RAM sometime last year. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 30 16:24:20 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 17:24:20 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! References: <4E5D4A40.3050202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <33627F14376B4262B14D4FBB3712635D@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 4:38 PM Subject: Re: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! >> > I'm not sure SCSI or ethernet could do it in a reasonable amount of time. > I don't fancy sitting in a chair with a wire plugged into my head for a > couple of days. > > Peace... Sridhar You guys never heard of wireless? Maybe there isn't that much useful stuff to back up after all. ;) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 30 16:32:24 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 22:32:24 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems Message-ID: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> I have a MicroVAX II in a BA123 enclosure and I am experiencing some problems getting it to see the RD53. Whenever I try to boot I just get the error DEVOFFLINE and the Ready light on the front panel goes out when this happens (you can't get it to switch on again if you press the button a few times). The RD53 is known to work as it will boot in a MicroVAX 2000. The RQDX3 also works as I have tested it in a working MicroVAX II (BA23). I have tested the cable from the RQDX3 to the M9058 distribution board. I have also tested the cable from the M9058 to the front panel. I have tested the front panel button and it seems to be right (it shorts two terminals when depressed, leaving the Open Circuit when it is out). I have swapped the cables from the distribution board to the drive with another set. I am starting to suspect that the M9058 is at fault, I don't have a spare to eliminate this component, but I was wondering if anyone else has seen this problem and has any suggestions. Thanks Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 30 16:32:32 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D4A40.3050202@gmail.com> References: <4E5D4A40.3050202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20110830142830.X40868@shell.lmi.net> > Tony Duell wrote: > > I have long wished that my brain had either a SCSI or ethernet port > > (RS232 would not have enough bandwidth IMHO) so I could make a backup of > > it. There must be some useful stuff in there... More than would be practical to copy using RS232 or SCSI. NO, I'm NOT going to suggest USB! On Tue, 30 Aug 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I'm not sure SCSI or ethernet could do it in a reasonable amount of > time. I don't fancy sitting in a chair with a wire plugged into my head > for a couple of days. Try MANY years. While a little animation shows pages of paper fluttering from one box to another, . . . (with postitions for the animation images calculated in floating point?) Could that same wire also, while waiting?, stimulate pleasure centers? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mike at fenz.net Tue Aug 30 16:54:18 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 09:54:18 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <4E5C92AA.31698.CD1BD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara>, <9725E1B07ED24C309ABD74A702F97E10@massey.ac.nz>, <4E5C81A7.6040508@fenz.net> <4E5C92AA.31698.CD1BD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 07:35:06 -0700, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Put a nice husky supply on the +5 until the tantalum to go BOOM--or > at least until it feels warm? > Maybe not so silly--I can't begin to count the times that a bad cap > has given itself away in just that manner. To be honest, I did consider it. My concern was that I'd blow tracks off the board instead! I'm just glad it didn't turn out to be necessary. Cheers, Mike From micheladam at theedge.ca Tue Aug 30 16:55:00 2011 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (Michel Adam) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:55:00 -0600 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: De-lurking, I may be able to help. I have in my hands such a CD. If the tar files mentionned by Mr. Kunz (at www.sun3arc.org ) are insufficient to make a boot CD, I can provide an iso copy. However, I have no way of testing said copy ahead of time ... -- Michel Adam Yellowknife, NWT (and don't get me started on the ice road truckers thing...) ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave McGuire Date: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 13:11 Subject: Re: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > On 08/29/2011 04:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >I'm in the process of getting a mongrel Sun 3/400 machine > running as a host for my Symbolics UX400. The UX400 > support software requires SunOS 4.1 which I used to have on CD, > but I now appear to have misplaced. (I have a copy of > 4.1.4, but it only supports Sun4 machines > >) > > > >Anyone have a copy they could make an image of? (and > yes, I've confirmed that this machine will boot from CD.) > > The last release of SunOS to support 68K ("sun3x" kernel > architecture for the 68030-based machines, the 3/80 ad 3/400, > all others are "sun3") is 4.1.1_U1. I have boot tape > images, but not a CDROM image. I don't think I've ever > seen it on CDROM for 68K. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From mike at fenz.net Tue Aug 30 17:03:36 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 10:03:36 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7ac2d8602a6ae208f6b3d52d6d18bad1@vodafone.co.nz> On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:53:12 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> I have an Apple II mainboard I'm trying fix. I really enjoy gettting >> these >> particular machines going, for some reason. Maybe it's that emphatic BEEP >> when they finally run up... anyway... > Each to his pwn :-) Yeah, I know, I know... it's just a nostalgia thing I think! Either that or I have a perverse appreciation of hacky solutions (to be honest, this is actually true). >> This one has a pretty obvious fault, it sinks too much current on a >> yet-to-be-determined power supply line. Starting it up, the PSU goes into >> a >> startup/shutdown loop. The seller said he'd tested the PS in another > OK, I assume you know it's the mainboard (you've remvoed all expansion > boards and unplugged the kebyaord cable). Yes. As it turned out, someone else did the KB cable for me... bah. >> My ideas so far: >> 1. First thing I'll do when I get back to it is discover which PS output >> is >> being overloaded. That might eliminate a few suspects. > Sometimes an analogue voltmeter will 'kick' on all PSU outputs except > one, that one is the one that's shorted. > Alternatively, pull the RAMs (the only thing that cares about multiple > supply rails IIRC) disconenct one PSU output at a time at the 6 pin > connecotr and apply a suitable dummy load to it. If you find an output > that, when disconnected, allows the PSU to come up, you know that's the > one that's overcurrenting. In the end, I found +5V was shorted directly to ground. I think that someone has been fiddling with the machine trying to fix another fault, and when they reassembled it, shoved the aluminium spacer that runs along the back of the MB as far forward as it would go, causing it to touch Bad Things. When I took the case off, I removed the spacer as well (had to to free the rear RF shield), and... no more short. But it did leave me feeling a bit suspicious about this machine. > IIRC the ICs on an Apple ][ mainboard are all socketed. It doesn't take > that long to pull the lot. Yes, true. I wouldn't really mind doing this, but I really have to little time to play with the thing, I'm hoping to avoid doing anything I don't absolutely have to. Oh well, progress has been good. One thing I am wondering about. The monitor I'm testing this with is a Monitor ///. It gives a perfect picture from a Europlus (50fps), but on this one, it looks like it can't sync to the NTSCoid output of the II+. Might have to find something that is more 60Hz-happy. Or maybe there's still something wrong with the video output. Will check when I next get a moment. Cheers, Mike From mike at fenz.net Tue Aug 30 17:08:49 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 10:08:49 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <3DC902199EA44E14A89AD63C06E45829@massey.ac.nz> References: <84F8810A88C044B09E8490CA8C175046@portajara> <4E26B047.8000206@compsys.to> <201108291509.24465.rtellason@verizon.net> <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> <6C8A69B3C7C049E7A8135483FEE730D6@massey.ac.nz> <3ae7a3e32232012422436f855420b6e5@vodafone.co.nz> <3DC902199EA44E14A89AD63C06E45829@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:32:28 +1200, "Terry Stewart" wrote: > Are you referring to the $60 Apple II+ on New Zealand's Trade Me a week or > so ago? If so, I didn't realise it was you that clinched it. > No worries though. I already have a nice Apple II+ and my bid was just so > I > would have a spare board for parts. With shipping costs between islands, I > was lukewarm on it anyway, which it why my bid was no higher than the > initial listing price. Yes, that's the one. It was fairly expensive, but I've never worked on a US-market II+ before, so I was very keen to have a look, see how different it is to the Europlus. As it turns out (and as I already knew second-hand), there are very few differences indeed. One difference appears to be that the original US market PSU is shorter than the Europlus one that was fitted when I got it. Whoever changed it just pulled the speaker from where it was glued to the base in order to give enough room for the new PC, leaving the speaker floating around loose inside the case... during shipping... grumble. For all I know, impact damage from this has caused any number of extra faults! It broke one of the legs off the clock crystal, for a start. Cheers, Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 17:37:11 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 18:37:11 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5D6617.2090207@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2011 04:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> But those are the ones we're talking about. If people are saving >> images in weird, undocumented, known-by-a-handful-of-people image >> formats, they're effectively screwing themselves (and their images) in >> the future. > > So everybody who used digital image processing systems before JFIF(JPEG), > etc became a standaard was 'screwing themselvae's and is an idiot? Now that would be downright silly, wouldn't it, suggesting that people use a file format before it has been devised. There were, however, standardized, documented, and widely-supported file formats before that time. Picking the most obscure, least-supported one during that time would be stupid, just as it would be now. And, by the way, we can still read those file formats. Further, JFIF has been around for a LONG time. Care to estimate the number of digital images in existence before its inception, as a percentage of the total number of digital images in existence now? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 30 17:37:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 15:37:54 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110830142830.X40868@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4E5D4A40.3050202@gmail.com>, <20110830142830.X40868@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5D03D2.704.1C6D4D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Aug 2011 at 14:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > Try MANY years. > While a little animation shows pages of paper fluttering from one box > to another, . . . (with postitions for the animation images > calculated in floating point?) So what's the bandwidth of a tumbrel full of heads being hauled down the Champs-Elysees? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 17:37:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 18:37:43 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110830230224.f74d10e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4E5BCBBE.9040305@neurotica.com> <20110830230224.f74d10e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E5D6637.5000009@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2011 05:02 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> Will any current linux version run on an 80386 processor? > I think even NetBSD has dumped 386 support. I run NetBSD 5.0 on a > 486DX25 laptop with 4 MB RAM sometime last year. NetBSD has? Are you certain? I'm willing to bet otherwise, but I don't know for sure. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Aug 30 18:32:43 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S-100 buffered prototyping board PCBs Message-ID: <1314747163.52092.YahooMailClassic@web180202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, I have several S-100 buffered prototyping board PCBs available. They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Technical information available here http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20buffered%20prototyping%20card Please contact me if interested. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 30 18:44:21 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:44:21 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5C2C3F.9060800@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D75D5.4060801@telegraphics.com.au> On 29/08/11 9:01 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> That's an understatement. Open source powers almost the entire web and >> its infrastructure. One wouldn't know when to stop listing: DNS, http, >> RDBMS, SMTP, just about every acronym out there has a best of breed open >> source server. Then we can talk about gcc, *BSD, Linux, ... >> >> Just all rubbish, isn't it. > > Cripes, another person twisting my words to the extreme. > You are in a maze of twisty little trolls, all alike! --Toby > There's a sound that starts with P... > > -- > Will > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 30 18:46:44 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:46:44 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D6617.2090207@neurotica.com> References: <4E5D6617.2090207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5D7664.3070903@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/08/11 6:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/30/2011 04:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> But those are the ones we're talking about. If people are saving >>> images in weird, undocumented, known-by-a-handful-of-people image >>> formats, they're effectively screwing themselves (and their images) in >>> the future. >> >> So everybody who used digital image processing systems before JFIF(JPEG), >> etc became a standaard was 'screwing themselvae's and is an idiot? > > Now that would be downright silly, wouldn't it, suggesting that people > use a file format before it has been devised. > > There were, however, standardized, documented, and widely-supported > file formats before that time. Picking the most obscure, > least-supported one during that time would be stupid, just as it would > be now. Users aren't clairvoyant; in fact they rarely even give a thought to future-proofing (which is why we're in this mess). People use what's convenient, or what the vendor supports. That is often not an open or sane format, as has been mentioned previously. NetPBM are about as simple as it gets (uncompressed, of course). --Toby > > And, by the way, we can still read those file formats. > > Further, JFIF has been around for a LONG time. Care to estimate the > number of digital images in existence before its inception, as a > percentage of the total number of digital images in existence now? > > -Dave > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 30 18:42:59 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 00:42:59 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> On 30/08/2011 22:32, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a MicroVAX II in a BA123 enclosure and I am experiencing some > problems getting it to see the RD53. Whenever I try to boot I just get the > error DEVOFFLINE and the Ready light on the front panel goes out when this > happens (you can't get it to switch on again if you press the button a few > times). > > The RD53 is known to work as it will boot in a MicroVAX 2000. The RQDX3 also > works as I have tested it in a working MicroVAX II (BA23). Is it possible that the drive select jumper on the RD53 is on the wrong DS pin? I don't know about a MicroVAX 2000, but in the BA23 it has to be on DS0 for one bay and DS1 for the other, but so long as you only have one drive, it won't actually matter. In a BA123 with an M9058, it would usually be on DS1 (or DS2 or DS3, it won't usually matter). But it's worth trying it on DS0. On the M9058, the four incoming drive select signals (DS0...DS3) are routed separately to the four 34-pin connectors, so one select goes to J2 pin 26 and via a jumper to 28, 30, and 32; another select goes to J3 pins 26, 28, 30, and 32, and so on (and the ones that go to J3 and J4 also go, via jumpers, to DS0 and DS1 on the floppy connector, J11 pins 10 and 12, so don't use those if you have a floppy drive connected). There's a catch, though. On each of J1...J4, the DS signal goes directly to pin 26, but via a jumper to pins 28, 30, and 32. So if the jumper is missing, and you have the RD53 configured to respond to anything except DS0, it won't go online. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 30 18:51:16 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:51:16 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5D7774.2040103@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/08/11 4:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/29/2011 08:49 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> no, Toby and I are speculating that technical know-how and literacy >>>> could >>>> lose out to the forces of idiocy. >>> >>> Well...with that I cannot disagree. But, I have to think that JFIF, >>> PNG, and GIF file specs should be able to survive >> >> Nobody is disagreeing with you on such obvious cases. > > But those are the ones we're talking about. Then, since nobody disagrees with you on JFIF, PNG and GIF, why is this thread continuing? Maybe it's because your summary of the situation (use these three or be deservedly screwed) is over-simple. Image processing and archiving (not to mention file preservation in general) goes far, far beyond this handful of web-oriented formats. --Toby > If people are saving > images in weird, undocumented, known-by-a-handful-of-people image > formats, they're effectively screwing themselves (and their images) in > the future. > > All the smart people in the world can't save idiots from themselves. > Much of the world is dysfunctional due to stupidity; there will always > be some casualties because of this. > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 30 18:51:51 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:51:51 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/08/11 4:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/29/2011 08:49 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> no, Toby and I are speculating that technical know-how and literacy >>>> could >>>> lose out to the forces of idiocy. >>> >>> Well...with that I cannot disagree. But, I have to think that JFIF, >>> PNG, and GIF file specs should be able to survive >> >> Nobody is disagreeing with you on such obvious cases. > > But those are the ones we're talking about. Then, since nobody disagrees with you on JFIF, PNG and GIF, why is this thread continuing? Maybe it's because your summary of the situation (use these three or be deservedly screwed) is over-simple. Image processing and archiving (not to mention file preservation in general) goes far, far beyond this handful of web-oriented formats. In fact JFIF, PNG and GIF cannot even _represent_ many of the images that millions of people use every day. --Toby > If people are saving > images in weird, undocumented, known-by-a-handful-of-people image > formats, they're effectively screwing themselves (and their images) in > the future. > > All the smart people in the world can't save idiots from themselves. > Much of the world is dysfunctional due to stupidity; there will always > be some casualties because of this. > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 30 18:54:43 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 19:54:43 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5D7843.5040402@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/08/11 2:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/29/2011 04:07 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I'm in the process of getting a mongrel Sun 3/400 machine running as a >> host for my Symbolics UX400. The UX400 support software requires >> SunOS 4.1 which I used to have on CD, but I now appear to have >> misplaced. (I have a copy of 4.1.4, but it only supports Sun4 machines >> ) >> >> Anyone have a copy they could make an image of? (and yes, I've >> confirmed that this machine will boot from CD.) > > The last release of SunOS to support 68K ("sun3x" kernel architecture > for the 68030-based machines, the 3/80 ad 3/400, all others are "sun3") > is 4.1.1_U1. I have boot tape images, but not a CDROM image. I don't > think I've ever seen it on CDROM for 68K. If memory serves, it's still on the CD-ROM alongside SPARC, if you know where to look. I don't have my SunOS CD-ROMs with me to check, though. --Toby > > -Dave > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 19:15:20 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:15:20 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <33627F14376B4262B14D4FBB3712635D@dell8300> References: <4E5D4A40.3050202@gmail.com> <33627F14376B4262B14D4FBB3712635D@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E5D7D18.305@gmail.com> TeoZ wrote: >> I'm not sure SCSI or ethernet could do it in a reasonable amount of >> time. I don't fancy sitting in a chair with a wire plugged into my >> head for a couple of days. > > You guys never heard of wireless? Maybe there isn't that much useful > stuff to back up after all. ;) Come back when you have a wireless link faster than a recent SCSI or ethernet standard. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 19:16:18 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:16:18 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110830142830.X40868@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5D4A40.3050202@gmail.com> <20110830142830.X40868@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5D7D52.1070801@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Try MANY years. At 10Gbps? Isn't 100Gbps about to come out? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 19:27:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:27:51 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <4E5D7843.5040402@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> <4E5D7843.5040402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D8007.6000706@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2011 07:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> I'm in the process of getting a mongrel Sun 3/400 machine running as a >>> host for my Symbolics UX400. The UX400 support software requires >>> SunOS 4.1 which I used to have on CD, but I now appear to have >>> misplaced. (I have a copy of 4.1.4, but it only supports Sun4 machines >>> ) >>> >>> Anyone have a copy they could make an image of? (and yes, I've >>> confirmed that this machine will boot from CD.) >> >> The last release of SunOS to support 68K ("sun3x" kernel architecture >> for the 68030-based machines, the 3/80 ad 3/400, all others are "sun3") >> is 4.1.1_U1. I have boot tape images, but not a CDROM image. I don't >> think I've ever seen it on CDROM for 68K. > > If memory serves, it's still on the CD-ROM alongside SPARC, if you know > where to look. I don't have my SunOS CD-ROMs with me to check, though. They certainly weren't on the SPARC distributions, at least not the 4.1.x series. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 19:29:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:29:23 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2011 07:51 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> no, Toby and I are speculating that technical know-how and literacy >>>>> could >>>>> lose out to the forces of idiocy. >>>> >>>> Well...with that I cannot disagree. But, I have to think that JFIF, >>>> PNG, and GIF file specs should be able to survive >>> >>> Nobody is disagreeing with you on such obvious cases. >> >> But those are the ones we're talking about. > > Then, since nobody disagrees with you on JFIF, PNG and GIF, why is this > thread continuing? Because you keep disagreeing. > Maybe it's because your summary of the situation (use these three or be > deservedly screwed) is over-simple. Yes it is, because it doesn't need to be complex. Why does it have to be any more complicated than "don't use weird unsupportable undocumented proprietary stuff"? > Image processing and archiving (not to mention file preservation in > general) goes far, far beyond this handful of web-oriented formats. In > fact JFIF, PNG and GIF cannot even _represent_ many of the images that > millions of people use every day. "Web-oriented formats"? Every one of them predates "the web" by years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 19:31:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 20:31:24 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D7664.3070903@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5D6617.2090207@neurotica.com> <4E5D7664.3070903@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D80DC.5090206@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2011 07:46 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Users aren't clairvoyant; in fact they rarely even give a thought to > future-proofing (which is why we're in this mess). People use what's > convenient, or what the vendor supports. That is often not an open or > sane format, as has been mentioned previously. People rarely give a thought to much of ANYTHING, which is the root of the problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 30 20:02:45 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:02:45 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <4E5D8007.6000706@neurotica.com> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> <4E5D7843.5040402@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8007.6000706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5D8835.4090503@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/08/11 8:27 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/30/2011 07:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> I'm in the process of getting a mongrel Sun 3/400 machine running as a >>>> host for my Symbolics UX400. The UX400 support software requires >>>> SunOS 4.1 which I used to have on CD, but I now appear to have >>>> misplaced. (I have a copy of 4.1.4, but it only supports Sun4 machines >>>> ) >>>> >>>> Anyone have a copy they could make an image of? (and yes, I've >>>> confirmed that this machine will boot from CD.) >>> >>> The last release of SunOS to support 68K ("sun3x" kernel architecture >>> for the 68030-based machines, the 3/80 ad 3/400, all others are "sun3") >>> is 4.1.1_U1. I have boot tape images, but not a CDROM image. I don't >>> think I've ever seen it on CDROM for 68K. >> >> If memory serves, it's still on the CD-ROM alongside SPARC, if you know >> where to look. I don't have my SunOS CD-ROMs with me to check, though. > > They certainly weren't on the SPARC distributions, at least not the > 4.1.x series. They are, iirc, and you can even boot from them. The instructions I used may have been these: http://www.sun3arc.org/install/install.phtml --Toby > > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 30 20:10:13 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:10:13 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/08/11 8:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/30/2011 07:51 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>>> no, Toby and I are speculating that technical know-how and literacy >>>>>> could >>>>>> lose out to the forces of idiocy. >>>>> >>>>> Well...with that I cannot disagree. But, I have to think that >>>>> JFIF, >>>>> PNG, and GIF file specs should be able to survive >>>> >>>> Nobody is disagreeing with you on such obvious cases. >>> >>> But those are the ones we're talking about. >> >> Then, since nobody disagrees with you on JFIF, PNG and GIF, why is this >> thread continuing? > > Because you keep disagreeing. How inconvenient! > >> Maybe it's because your summary of the situation (use these three or be >> deservedly screwed) is over-simple. > > Yes it is, because it doesn't need to be complex. Why does it have to > be any more complicated than "don't use weird unsupportable undocumented > proprietary stuff"? > >> Image processing and archiving (not to mention file preservation in >> general) goes far, far beyond this handful of web-oriented formats. In >> fact JFIF, PNG and GIF cannot even _represent_ many of the images that >> millions of people use every day. > > "Web-oriented formats"? Every one of them predates "the web" by years. What's that got to do with it? The web and digital photography helped these three become ubiquitous. But as soon as you get into professional image processing you often need something more sophisticated. Just curious: are the tape and wire formats for DV video openly documented? What about HD and professional/film formats? What if somebody asked you to decode 100TB of video from 2011 one day... --T > > -Dave > From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 30 20:26:43 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:26:43 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <60D99C1B25254E2F9E33BF3032C24889@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 9:10 PM Subject: Re: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! > Just curious: are the tape and wire formats for DV video openly > documented? What about HD and professional/film formats? What if > somebody asked you to decode 100TB of video from 2011 one day... > > --T > >> >> -Dave >> I am sure some of the very early film footage captured and edited on various proprietary computer hardware will be hard to work with (early 68K AVIDs for one that needed specific hardware for compression/decompression). Video compression has changed quite a bit over the last 20+ years I would think. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 20:40:48 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 18:40:48 -0700 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <4E5D8835.4090503@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> <4E5D7843.5040402@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8007.6000706@neurotica.com> <4E5D8835.4090503@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> ? They certainly weren't on the SPARC distributions, at least not the >> 4.1.x series. > > They are, iirc, and you can even boot from them. The instructions I used > may have been these: http://www.sun3arc.org/install/install.phtml > > --Toby If I look at the contents of this CD-ROM I only see sun4c, sun4, sun4m binaries. I don't see any sun3 binaries. SunOS 4.1.3 SUNBIN sun4c, sun4, sun4m CD-ROM (boot format) 1 of 1 704-3095-10 Solaris(R) 1.1 SMCC Version A Sun-4(TM), Sun-4c, Sun-4m, SPARC(R) Part Number: 704-3095-05 Rev. 50 CD-ROM (1 of 1) ISO 9660 format From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 30 20:42:29 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 18:42:29 -0700 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <60D99C1B25254E2F9E33BF3032C24889@dell8300> References: , <60D99C1B25254E2F9E33BF3032C24889@dell8300> Message-ID: <4E5D2F15.27579.26FD56A@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Aug 2011 at 21:26, TeoZ wrote: > I am sure some of the very early film footage captured and edited on > various proprietary computer hardware will be hard to work with (early > 68K AVIDs for one that needed specific hardware for > compression/decompression). Video compression has changed quite a bit > over the last 20+ years I would think. So who's got the code to render Hebrew-alphabet data from a Compugraphic typesetter on 8" floppy into ASCII? Not atypical of what I see--and often fail at. No Rosetta stone. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 20:43:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:43:51 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <4E5D8835.4090503@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> <4E5D7843.5040402@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8007.6000706@neurotica.com> <4E5D8835.4090503@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D91D7.8080003@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2011 09:02 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> The last release of SunOS to support 68K ("sun3x" kernel architecture >>>> for the 68030-based machines, the 3/80 ad 3/400, all others are "sun3") >>>> is 4.1.1_U1. I have boot tape images, but not a CDROM image. I don't >>>> think I've ever seen it on CDROM for 68K. >>> >>> If memory serves, it's still on the CD-ROM alongside SPARC, if you know >>> where to look. I don't have my SunOS CD-ROMs with me to check, though. >> >> They certainly weren't on the SPARC distributions, at least not the >> 4.1.x series. > > They are, iirc, and you can even boot from them. The instructions I used > may have been these: http://www.sun3arc.org/install/install.phtml SPARC isn't mentioned anywhere on that page, at least not for booting. Further, there were different Distribution CDROMs for Sun3 and Sun4 machines, labeled as such. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 20:47:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:47:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> <4E5D7843.5040402@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8007.6000706@neurotica.com> <4E5D8835.4090503@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D929C.5090309@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2011 09:40 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> They certainly weren't on the SPARC distributions, at least not the >>> 4.1.x series. >> >> They are, iirc, and you can even boot from them. The instructions I used >> may have been these: http://www.sun3arc.org/install/install.phtml > > If I look at the contents of this CD-ROM I only see sun4c, sun4, sun4m > binaries. I don't see any sun3 binaries. > > SunOS 4.1.3 SUNBIN > sun4c, sun4, sun4m > CD-ROM (boot format) 1 of 1 > 704-3095-10 > Solaris(R) 1.1 SMCC Version A > Sun-4(TM), Sun-4c, Sun-4m, SPARC(R) > Part Number: 704-3095-05 Rev. 50 > CD-ROM (1 of 1) ISO 9660 format Yes, the SPARC distributions were separate from the Sun3 distributions. But in this case, there wouldn't be any Sun3 support at all, as the last release to support the 68K machines was 4.1.1_U1, and that's 4.1.3. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Aug 30 20:55:03 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:55:03 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> <4E5D32B2.6010603@neurotica.com> <4E5D7843.5040402@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8007.6000706@neurotica.com> <4E5D8835.4090503@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D9477.3000206@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/08/11 9:40 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> >>> They certainly weren't on the SPARC distributions, at least not the >>> 4.1.x series. >> >> They are, iirc, and you can even boot from them. The instructions I used >> may have been these: http://www.sun3arc.org/install/install.phtml >> >> --Toby > > If I look at the contents of this CD-ROM I only see sun4c, sun4, sun4m > binaries. I don't see any sun3 binaries. > > SunOS 4.1.3 SUNBIN It's a 4.1.3 CD-ROM. Try looking at a 4.1.1 one (the last that supports Sun 3). --Toby > sun4c, sun4, sun4m > CD-ROM (boot format) 1 of 1 > 704-3095-10 > Solaris(R) 1.1 SMCC Version A > Sun-4(TM), Sun-4c, Sun-4m, SPARC(R) > Part Number: 704-3095-05 Rev. 50 > CD-ROM (1 of 1) ISO 9660 format > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 20:55:56 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:55:56 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <60D99C1B25254E2F9E33BF3032C24889@dell8300> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <60D99C1B25254E2F9E33BF3032C24889@dell8300> Message-ID: > I am sure some of the very early film footage captured and edited on various > proprietary computer hardware will be hard to work with (early 68K AVIDs for > one that needed specific hardware for compression/decompression). Video > compression has changed quite a bit over the last 20+ years I would think. Video and audio formats tend to be well documented, but often difficult to get ($$$$$!). Many of the big film and video labs have this information, as they actually need to use it from time to time for media conversions. Realize that Hollywood has lots of money. I actually can not think of a single audio or video format that has been truly lost. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Aug 30 20:56:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 21:56:02 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> On 08/30/2011 09:10 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Image processing and archiving (not to mention file preservation in >>> general) goes far, far beyond this handful of web-oriented formats. In >>> fact JFIF, PNG and GIF cannot even _represent_ many of the images that >>> millions of people use every day. >> >> "Web-oriented formats"? Every one of them predates "the web" by years. > > What's that got to do with it? About as much as you're sticking the subsentence "web-oriented" in the sentence above. > The web and digital photography helped these three become ubiquitous. > But as soon as you get into professional image processing you often need > something more sophisticated. Riiiiight. Like PSD for example, which is documented. Perhaps not WELL, but it's documented. (as you know intimately from your work on that parser) > Just curious: are the tape and wire formats for DV video openly > documented? What about HD and professional/film formats? What if > somebody asked you to decode 100TB of video from 2011 one day... Then I'll figure it out, and send them a big fat bill. Look, you are being a dick. Someone asserted that digital photography is inferior to film photography because we are almost certainly going to lose the spec to the formats that are in common use (which is so unlikely to as to be effectively impossible, it isn't friggin' 1970 anymore!) and everybody knows film photography is better because negatives last forever. (which is bull to begin with, as proven by my big box of disintegrating 35-year-old Tri-X-Pan negatives) THAT is what we're talking about. Not proprietary undocumented image formats that comprise maybe 1/10 of 1% of all digital imaging done in the world today. 99.9% of today's digital images will not be lost, barring a complete global holocaust. Which is [drumroll please] what we were actually talking about. Go find something useful to do, and stop trying to provoke me into saying you're being a dick...because I've just done so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RBORSUK at COLOURFULL.COM Tue Aug 30 22:23:11 2011 From: RBORSUK at COLOURFULL.COM (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 23:23:11 -0400 Subject: TI CD 1400 Drive [for sale / offers] Message-ID: <2F750054-482C-4BE5-ABFA-3A48E31D913E@COLOURFULL.COM> I need to get rid of this drive. I don't have the TI990 computer for it anymore. If I don't get any offers in the next couple of days I'm going to scrap it out (that said - this is not free). It's a TI CD 1400 branded drive. Magnetic Peripherals 944B drive. The unit weighs 175 pounds so it puts out of the standard shipping range. Please send any offers off list. Drive is located in Port Huron, Michigan. Rob pics at http://tinyurl.com/3hdv62b Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Aug 31 00:46:12 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 22:46:12 -0700 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <4E5D7843.5040402@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 8/30/11 4:54 PM, "Toby Thain" wrote: -snip- >> >> The last release of SunOS to support 68K ("sun3x" kernel architecture >> for the 68030-based machines, the 3/80 ad 3/400, all others are "sun3") >> is 4.1.1_U1. I have boot tape images, but not a CDROM image. I don't >> think I've ever seen it on CDROM for 68K. > > If memory serves, it's still on the CD-ROM alongside SPARC, if you know > where to look. I don't have my SunOS CD-ROMs with me to check, though. > > --Toby > IIRC, you can boot the appropriate partition off the CD and get into the appropriate installer for your architecture... It has been a heck of a long time since I've booted any of the 4.1.x cd's.... Should get my old sparc 1 machine out of storage and light it up. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Aug 31 01:02:17 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 07:02:17 +0100 Subject: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) In-Reply-To: References: <201108291951.p7TJplHm073788@billy.ezwind.net> from "John Foust" at Aug 29, 11 02:49:30 pm Message-ID: <378044659A2441CA94827A7724BBC7B1@RODSDEVSYSTEM> I once saw two guys push a fully populated six foot equipment rack onto a local (rail car type) train using the wheelchair ramp. They put it in the lobby area where the doors are and retracted the wheels. It turned out (from their conversation) it was signaling equipment for a station further down the line. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 30 August 2011 20:37 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Train shipping ( was Re: VT fixums ) > On my recent trip, I saw a fellow carrying a desktop computer and > LCD monitor as carry-ons - with no box. I havre no idea waht the official restrictuions are, but I've carried the following on British trains (on serparate occasions) : An IBM PC/AT (got the comment from a fellow traveller 'That's some laptop' ;-)) A DEC RS02 + 2 large bags of UNibus boards and printsets A complete GT40 An AR88 (RCA communcations receiver) A complete EEC rainbow with keyboard and mono monitor A complete Torch XXX system and spares A Philips P850 An HP9100 and HP9815 Doubtless many other medium-sized computer systems... -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 31 01:35:38 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:35:38 +0200 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D6637.5000009@neurotica.com> References: <4E5BCBBE.9040305@neurotica.com> <20110830230224.f74d10e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E5D6637.5000009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110831083538.b54f8588.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 18:37:43 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > > I think even NetBSD has dumped 386 support. > NetBSD has? Are you certain? No. But I remember it has been bikesheded^Wdiscussed. IIRC there was some old 386 cruft that handicaped some improvements for XEN. Or the like. So it was considered to sacrifice 386 support for new things. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Aug 31 03:45:53 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 10:45:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5D34FC.5060302@neurotica.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <4E5D34FC.5060302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/30/2011 08:41 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> people bitching about my use of u >>> >>> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>>>> WTF? >>>> >>>> context? >>>> >>>> or just on general principles? >>>> >> >> Stop top posting and we'll discuss it. :D > > Oh good grief, stop picking on the kid. Please remember he's about half > the age of most everyone on here, and the whole illiteracy thing is pretty > common (if not ubiquitous) in his generation. > > I vouch for Adrian's coolness and great potential. I know him from another > list (8-bit Heathkit stuff) and I'm the one who suggested that he join us > here. > > (ObHint: the 'u' crap drives me ape shit as well ;)) No criticism, just a note: don't forget the non-native speakers on this (international!) list, they might get a bit confused by too much unusual orthography and/or grammar. Christian From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 31 04:18:04 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 10:18:04 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> I forgot to mention that I did find that my RD53 was configured as DS3 and changed it to DS1 (numbering from 1-4, not 0-3), but that made no difference. I tried swapping the jumper on the M9058 from the factory setting of TP1-TP2 to TP2-TP3, but it made no difference. Is that the jumper you mean? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 31 August 2011 00:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems > > On 30/08/2011 22:32, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I have a MicroVAX II in a BA123 enclosure and I am experiencing some > > problems getting it to see the RD53. Whenever I try to boot I just get > > the error DEVOFFLINE and the Ready light on the front panel goes out > > when this happens (you can't get it to switch on again if you press > > the button a few times). > > > > The RD53 is known to work as it will boot in a MicroVAX 2000. The > > RQDX3 also works as I have tested it in a working MicroVAX II (BA23). > > Is it possible that the drive select jumper on the RD53 is on the wrong DS pin? > I don't know about a MicroVAX 2000, but in the BA23 it has to be on DS0 for > one bay and DS1 for the other, but so long as you only have one drive, it won't > actually matter. In a BA123 with an M9058, it would usually be on DS1 (or DS2 > or DS3, it won't usually matter). > > But it's worth trying it on DS0. On the M9058, the four incoming drive select > signals (DS0...DS3) are routed separately to the four 34-pin connectors, so > one select goes to J2 pin 26 and via a jumper to 28, 30, and 32; another select > goes to J3 pins 26, 28, 30, and 32, and so on (and the ones that go to J3 and J4 > also go, via jumpers, to DS0 and DS1 on the floppy connector, J11 pins 10 and > 12, so don't use those if you have a floppy drive connected). > > There's a catch, though. On each of J1...J4, the DS signal goes directly to pin > 26, but via a jumper to pins 28, 30, and 32. So if the jumper is missing, and > you have the RD53 configured to respond to anything except DS0, it won't go > online. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 31 07:03:34 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 08:03:34 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> On 30/08/11 9:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/30/2011 09:10 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Image processing and archiving (not to mention file preservation in >>>> general) goes far, far beyond this handful of web-oriented formats. In >>>> fact JFIF, PNG and GIF cannot even _represent_ many of the images that >>>> millions of people use every day. >>> >>> "Web-oriented formats"? Every one of them predates "the web" by >>> years. >> >> What's that got to do with it? > > About as much as you're sticking the subsentence "web-oriented" in the > sentence above. > >> The web and digital photography helped these three become ubiquitous. ^^ >> But as soon as you get into professional image processing you often need >> something more sophisticated. > > Riiiiight. Like PSD for example, which is documented. Perhaps not > WELL, but it's documented. (as you know intimately from your work on > that parser) As I also said: It's not documented sufficiently to reconstruct any non trivial image. Only Photoshop can rasterise a PSD (and even then, it must be undamaged, and you have to find a sufficiently new version of Photoshop, etc). Calling what Adobe provides "documentation" isn't fair to real documentors. :) --Toby From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 07:38:57 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 07:38:57 -0500 Subject: Tony Sale passed In-Reply-To: <4E5D2590.6050901@bitsavers.org> References: <4E5D2590.6050901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4E5E2B61.7050503@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14720180 A very inspirational and energetic character. I was lucky to work alongside him for a number of years. Sad news indeed. J. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 09:18:15 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 09:18:15 -0500 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: don't forget raw files On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 7:03 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 30/08/11 9:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 08/30/2011 09:10 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >>>> Image processing and archiving (not to mention file preservation in > >>>> general) goes far, far beyond this handful of web-oriented formats. In > >>>> fact JFIF, PNG and GIF cannot even _represent_ many of the images that > >>>> millions of people use every day. > >>> > >>> "Web-oriented formats"? Every one of them predates "the web" by > >>> years. > >> > >> What's that got to do with it? > > > > About as much as you're sticking the subsentence "web-oriented" in the > > sentence above. > > > >> The web and digital photography helped these three become ubiquitous. > > ^^ > > >> But as soon as you get into professional image processing you often need > >> something more sophisticated. > > > > Riiiiight. Like PSD for example, which is documented. Perhaps not > > WELL, but it's documented. (as you know intimately from your work on > > that parser) > > As I also said: It's not documented sufficiently to reconstruct any non > trivial image. Only Photoshop can rasterise a PSD (and even then, it > must be undamaged, and you have to find a sufficiently new version of > Photoshop, etc). Calling what Adobe provides "documentation" isn't fair > to real documentors. :) > > --Toby > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 31 10:31:15 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 09:31:15 -0600 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article , Gene Buckle writes: > It means your reading comprehension skills are sub-par. And his google skills are nil. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 13:03:41 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:03:41 -0300 Subject: mess.org References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <4E5D34FC.5060302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <43C3CAF1402C478CB715B3B6B3CAFD39@portajara> > No criticism, just a note: don't forget the non-native speakers on this > (international!) list, they might get a bit confused by too much > unusual orthography and/or grammar. \o/ I'm here :o) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Aug 31 13:17:52 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:17:52 -0500 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <43C3CAF1402C478CB715B3B6B3CAFD39@portajara> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <4E5D34FC.5060302@neurotica.com> <43C3CAF1402C478CB715B3B6B3CAFD39@portajara> Message-ID: sadly english is my native language On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > No criticism, just a note: don't forget the non-native speakers on this >> (international!) list, they might get a bit confused by too much unusual >> orthography and/or grammar. >> > > \o/ I'm here :o) > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 31 14:32:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:32:07 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2011 08:03 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Riiiiight. Like PSD for example, which is documented. Perhaps not >> WELL, but it's documented. (as you know intimately from your work on >> that parser) > > As I also said: It's not documented sufficiently to reconstruct any non > trivial image. Only Photoshop can rasterise a PSD (and even then, it > must be undamaged, and you have to find a sufficiently new version of > Photoshop, etc). Calling what Adobe provides "documentation" isn't fair > to real documentors. :) Understood. That is very sad. I guess they "go through the motions" so they can claim they've released the spec, but it's not complete enough to enable someone to truly take advantage of the format. Is it at least the case that someone can "see the damn image" (which is usually the end point of digital imaging anyway) even if a lot of the metadata, layering, etc etc aren't usable? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Aug 31 14:33:36 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 12:33:36 -0700 Subject: VT100 available at Weirdstuff... Message-ID: <201108311233.37051.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I checked out the VT100 at Weirdstuff. Here's the scoop: 1. I powered it up and the screen is clean and in focus. Setup "A" and "B" work. 2. I did not have a BOB with me so I didn't test the comm port. 3. It is a very nice looking VT100, with only a few minor signs of wear. The keyboard is clean and appears to work O.K. (tested via Setup). 4. The price is $150 (as opposed to the $50 previously posted to CCLIST). It still seems reasonable for such a clean VT100. If you are local and coming to WS, it is located slightly to the right of the front door... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 31 14:41:14 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:41:14 +0200 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <4E5D34FC.5060302@neurotica.com> <43C3CAF1402C478CB715B3B6B3CAFD39@portajara> Message-ID: <20110831214114.41709eb5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:17:52 -0500 Adrian Stoness wrote: > sadly english is my native language That is the reason why you should try _very_hard_ to write correct english. Keep in mind that you are a teacher. You, as a native englich speaker, are teaching me english. You do this even if you don't want. I learned most of my english through conversations on mailing lists like this one. You are representing your native language. At the moment, you don't do it a favor. To put it polite. It is very poor when a non-native english speaker talks / writes better english then you. At least I would be ashamed when an english men talks better German then I. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 31 15:03:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> > > It means your reading comprehension skills are sub-par. > > And his google skills are nil. When I was his age, I had no Google skills at all. But, if Dave vouchs for him, then we shouldn't mistreat him any more than we mistreat Dave. We can probably eventually teach him to be just like us! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Aug 31 14:56:56 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:56:56 +0100 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <4E5D34FC.5060302@neurotica.com> <43C3CAF1402C478CB715B3B6B3CAFD39@portajara> Message-ID: <4E5E9208.5040805@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/08/2011 19:17, Adrian Stoness wrote: > sadly english is my native language Mine isn't, I'm Scottish. And I don't top-post ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 31 15:13:42 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> It means your reading comprehension skills are sub-par. >> >> And his google skills are nil. > > When I was his age, I had no Google skills at all. > > > But, if Dave vouchs for him, then we shouldn't mistreat him any more than > we mistreat Dave. We can probably eventually teach him to be just like > us! > It would be more fun if we just beat up Dave more often. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 31 13:58:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:58:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5D4A40.3050202@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Aug 30, 11 04:38:24 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I have long wished that my brain had either a SCSI or ethernet port > > (RS232 would not have enough bandwidth IMHO) so I could make a backup of > > it. There must be some useful stuff in there... > > I'm not sure SCSI or ethernet could do it in a reasonable amount of > time. I don't fancy sitting in a chair with a wire plugged into my head > for a couple of days. Well, in my case I am sure you could back up all that was of use in a few minutes, even with a 110 baud RS232 connection. For those with more useful stuff in their brains, couldn't it be arranged so that the backup ran over several nights, while you were asleep? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 31 14:06:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:06:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: <7ac2d8602a6ae208f6b3d52d6d18bad1@vodafone.co.nz> from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Aug 31, 11 10:03:36 am Message-ID: > One thing I am wondering about. The monitor I'm testing this with is a > Monitor ///. It gives a perfect picture from a Europlus (50fps), but on > this one, it looks like it can't sync to the NTSCoid output of the II+. > Might have to find something that is more 60Hz-happy. Or maybe there's > still something wrong with the video output. Will check when I next get a > moment. The horizontal frequencies (15625Hz .vs. 15750 Hz IIRC) are sufficiently close that just about any monitor that will sync to one will sync to the other. So if you have a problem other than vertical syuc (picture rolling vertically), I would suspect a fault. In gneral most monitors will sync toi 50 or 60Hz verticla if you tweak the vertical hold control (may be an internal preset, though). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 31 14:12:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:12:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: from "Mike van Bokhoven" at Aug 31, 11 10:08:49 am Message-ID: > Yes, that's the one. It was fairly expensive, but I've never worked on a > US-market II+ before, so I was very keen to have a look, see how different > it is to the Europlus. As it turns out (and as I already knew second-hand), > there are very few differences indeed. One difference appears to be that > the original US market PSU is shorter than the Europlus one that was fitted >From what I rememberm the PSUs are actually Astec units. The scheamtic shown in the reference manual doesn't match the PSU in my Europluses, but then again it's very psosibl that several versions of the PSU were used over the years. > when I got it. Whoever changed it just pulled the speaker from where it was > glued to the base in order to give enough room for the new PC, leaving the > speaker floating around loose inside the case... during shipping... > grumble. For all I know, impact damage from this has caused any number of > extra faults! It broke one of the legs off the clock crystal, for a start. ARGH!. When I wsa sortign out my (totally dead) HP9820, one of the first checks I did after ensuring all the PSU rails were correct was the clock circuit. This starts with an 8MHz crystal oscillator. Checkign the output of this circuit (a couple of TTL gates, some R's and Cs, and the (socketed) crystal) showed a very distoete waveform at aobut 20MHz. This remained the smae when the crystal was unplugged, and was acutlaly just the natural osciallation frequencyt of one of the gates with a resistor linking output to input. Fitting a good crystal got it back at 8Mhz. Intrigued, I carfully cut the can off the defective crystal to see that the quartz (?) plate inside was acutally broken in half (there's a picture of it in mu flickr account). I asuem this must have happend when the machine was dropped or something. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 31 16:04:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:04:44 -0400 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5EA1EC.8070705@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2011 04:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> It means your reading comprehension skills are sub-par. >> >> And his google skills are nil. > > When I was his age, I had no Google skills at all. > > But, if Dave vouchs for him, then we shouldn't mistreat him any more than > we mistreat Dave. We can probably eventually teach him to be just like > us! Personally, I think you shouldn't mistreat either of us at all, but that's just me! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 31 16:05:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:05:04 -0400 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2011 04:13 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> But, if Dave vouchs for him, then we shouldn't mistreat him any more than >> we mistreat Dave. We can probably eventually teach him to be just like >> us! >> > It would be more fun if we just beat up Dave more often. :) HEY! I am NOT a fan of this idea! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jws at jwsss.com Wed Aug 31 16:10:26 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 14:10:26 -0700 Subject: DEC GIGI (again) Message-ID: <4E5EA342.9030909@jwsss.com> I dug my GIGI out of the pile this weekend, during a visit to my stuff in Kansas City. I notice it is running out 4 bnc's and recall that the Dec monitor I had at one time had that sort of feed. Is it as easy as 4 of 5 wires (sync on green maybe) to get it going? I also have an aging cranky 24" Viewsonic which has BNC inputs, but when it goes poof, I'd love to have this as someething I can still run with an LED display. I know there is a GIGI discussion in the archive somewhere and will look for it to see if it had a monitor discussion associated with it. thanks Jim From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Aug 31 16:37:43 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 15:37:43 -0600 Subject: DEC GIGI (again) In-Reply-To: <4E5EA342.9030909@jwsss.com> References: <4E5EA342.9030909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4E5EA9A7.4010009@e-bbes.com> On 2011-08-31 15:10, jim s wrote: > I dug my GIGI out of the pile this weekend, during a visit to my stuff > in Kansas City. I notice it is running out 4 bnc's and recall that the > Dec monitor I had at one time had that sort of feed. Is it as easy as 4 > of 5 wires (sync on green maybe) to get it going? probably ;-) > I also have an aging cranky 24" Viewsonic which has BNC inputs, but when > it goes poof, I'd love to have this as someething I can still run with > an LED display. If you're saying 24", it probably has 31 kHz as lowest HFreq, so it won't work. Otherwise, most Viewsonics have Sync-O-Green. Cheers From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 31 16:49:09 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 14:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Aug 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/31/2011 04:13 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> But, if Dave vouchs for him, then we shouldn't mistreat him any more than >>> we mistreat Dave. We can probably eventually teach him to be just like >>> us! >>> >> It would be more fun if we just beat up Dave more often. :) > > HEY! I am NOT a fan of this idea! > Now you just shush. We're discussing your fate and can't be interrupted. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 31 16:55:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 17:55:43 -0400 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: References: <4E5BCFC3.4010802@e-bbes.com> <4E5C052D.1030707@bitsavers.org> <20110829152404.C6114@shell.lmi.net> <20110831130055.T79693@shell.lmi.net> <4E5EA200.8020401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5EADDF.1070307@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2011 05:49 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> But, if Dave vouchs for him, then we shouldn't mistreat him any more >>>> than >>>> we mistreat Dave. We can probably eventually teach him to be just like >>>> us! >>>> >>> It would be more fun if we just beat up Dave more often. :) >> >> HEY! I am NOT a fan of this idea! >> > Now you just shush. We're discussing your fate and can't be interrupted. > > > :) HEY!! 8-< -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Aug 31 16:43:32 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:43:32 +0100 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> <4E5D7583.4020409@dunnington.plus.com> <060501cc67be$e4fe25d0$aefa7170$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E5EAB04.3030308@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/08/2011 10:18, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I forgot to mention that I did find that my RD53 was configured as DS3 and > changed it to DS1 (numbering from 1-4, not 0-3), but that made no > difference. I tried swapping the jumper on the M9058 from the factory > setting of TP1-TP2 to TP2-TP3, but it made no difference. Is that the jumper > you mean? No, I don't think so. I can't remember what that does, but thre are lots of links. They might not be jumpers in the usual sense; they might be tracks to cut/join on the PCB or wire links. Anytway, if you have any sort of ohmmeter or continuity tester, it's east to see if what I described is set up: check for continuity between pins 26 and 32 on each of J1...J4. If your continuity tester isn't safe for use on logic circuits, just disconnect the M9058, which is probably going to be necessary to get at the pins anyway. Mentioning DS3 reminds me: I think that's the normal setting for an M9058 setup. I don't know if it helps much, but there are some diagrams and notes at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/ (the .ps files are just the original PostScript from which the PDFs were created). Does the RD53 have a terminator resistor pack in it? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 31 17:28:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:28:40 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <20110831083538.b54f8588.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4E5BCBBE.9040305@neurotica.com> <20110830230224.f74d10e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4E5D6637.5000009@neurotica.com> <20110831083538.b54f8588.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4E5EB598.1010108@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2011 02:35 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 18:37:43 -0400 > Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> I think even NetBSD has dumped 386 support. >> NetBSD has? Are you certain? > No. But I remember it has been bikesheded^Wdiscussed. IIRC there was > some old 386 cruft that handicaped some improvements for XEN. Or the > like. So it was considered to sacrifice 386 support for new things. We should look into this. NetBSD, like Linux, is used in lots of embedded applications. In particular it use is common in digital cameras. Most of them have surely gone ARM by now (like everything else) but the 80386EX was very common in that world; I can't imagine they've disappeared overnight. And besides, those types of issues would easily have been solved by conditional compilation via kernel config file options, which is (as I'm sure you know) generally how the NetBSD crowd addresses such problems. Not everyone runs Xen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mike at fenz.net Wed Aug 31 18:06:24 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:06:24 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <632b698c9c769792c80672d74f602f88@vodafone.co.nz> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:06:46 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> One thing I am wondering about. The monitor I'm testing this with is a >> Monitor ///. It gives a perfect picture from a Europlus (50fps), but on >> this one, it looks like it can't sync to the NTSCoid output of the II+. >> Might have to find something that is more 60Hz-happy. Or maybe there's >> still something wrong with the video output. Will check when I next get a >> moment. > The horizontal frequencies (15625Hz .vs. 15750 Hz IIRC) are sufficiently > close that just about any monitor that will sync to one will sync to the > other. So if you have a problem other than vertical syuc (picture rolling > vertically), I would suspect a fault. In gneral most monitors will sync > toi 50 or 60Hz verticla if you tweak the vertical hold control (may be an > internal preset, though). Right - this monitor is doing more than just rolling, the text only appears on the right side of the screen, and it's not stable in X or Y. I might look at it on an NTSC monitor just to make sure the rates are right, but I suspect that there are nasty things going on with the output. More work required. Cheers, Mike From mike at fenz.net Wed Aug 31 18:10:07 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 11:10:07 +1200 Subject: Apple II over-current issue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33608df272da3eaf496c363b1bd24b6e@vodafone.co.nz> On Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:12:48 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > From what I rememberm the PSUs are actually Astec units. The scheamtic > shown in the reference manual doesn't match the PSU in my Europluses, but > then again it's very psosibl that several versions of the PSU were used > over the years. Yes, most if not all are from Astec, as far as I can remember. I've never had much trouble with them, other than caps going bad. It's very cheap to buy a new set of caps thouugh, I did that with the last Europlus I worked on. > When I wsa sortign out my (totally dead) HP9820, one of the first checks > I did after ensuring all the PSU rails were correct was the clock > circuit. This starts with an 8MHz crystal oscillator. Checkign the output > of this circuit (a couple of TTL gates, some R's and Cs, and the > (socketed) crystal) showed a very distoete waveform at aobut 20MHz. This > remained the smae when the crystal was unplugged, and was acutlaly just > the natural osciallation frequencyt of one of the gates with a resistor > linking output to input. Fitting a good crystal got it back at 8Mhz. > Intrigued, I carfully cut the can off the defective crystal to see that > the quartz (?) plate inside was acutally broken in half (there's a > picture of it in mu flickr account). I asuem this must have happend when > the machine was dropped or something. In a way I'm lucky then. The crystal is on very long legs, hovering above the board, and it was completely obvious that it wasn't attached as it should be. Easier than an invisible fault. Cheers, Mike From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 31 18:12:40 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 16:12:40 -0700 Subject: VT100 available at Weirdstuff... In-Reply-To: <201108311233.37051.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201108311233.37051.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4E5EBFE8.4010204@bitsavers.org> On 8/31/11 12:33 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I checked out the VT100 at Weirdstuff. Here's the scoop: > If it was on the self near the SGI, it's gone as of 4PM wed. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 31 18:45:30 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:45:30 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5E8C37.7070608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5EC79A.4040406@telegraphics.com.au> On 31/08/11 3:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/31/2011 08:03 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Riiiiight. Like PSD for example, which is documented. Perhaps not >>> WELL, but it's documented. (as you know intimately from your work on >>> that parser) >> >> As I also said: It's not documented sufficiently to reconstruct any non >> trivial image. Only Photoshop can rasterise a PSD (and even then, it >> must be undamaged, and you have to find a sufficiently new version of >> Photoshop, etc). Calling what Adobe provides "documentation" isn't fair >> to real documentors. :) > > Understood. That is very sad. I guess they "go through the motions" > so they can claim they've released the spec, but it's not complete > enough to enable someone to truly take advantage of the format. > > Is it at least the case that someone can "see the damn image" (which > is usually the end point of digital imaging anyway) even if a lot of the > metadata, layering, etc etc aren't usable? > Unless the "flattened" (composited) image is baked in, then you can see most of the constituent parts (e.g. image layers, masks) but you can't see what the whole would actually look like. Which is why my tool is really aimed at scavenging what can be scavenged ( http://telegraphics.com.au/svn/psdparse/trunk - there's a very fast command line converter to Gimp XCF in there, too). As for metadata, some of the structure of it is documented, but detailed interpretation is another matter. Again -- this speaks to a desire to hinder competition & interoperability. If the Gimp knew exactly how to render a PSD, then this would probably eat away at Adobe's extortionate licensing :) --Toby > -Dave > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 31 18:51:10 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 19:51:10 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> On 31/08/11 10:18 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > don't forget raw files > Do you mean Camera RAW? Yes that is a mysterious format, and has proven difficult to reverse engineer, I believe. --T > On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 7:03 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 30/08/11 9:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 08/30/2011 09:10 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>>> Image processing and archiving (not to mention file preservation in >>>>>> general) goes far, far beyond this handful of web-oriented formats. In >>>>>> fact JFIF, PNG and GIF cannot even _represent_ many of the images that >>>>>> millions of people use every day. >>>>> >>>>> "Web-oriented formats"? Every one of them predates "the web" by >>>>> years. >>>> >>>> What's that got to do with it? >>> >>> About as much as you're sticking the subsentence "web-oriented" in the >>> sentence above. >>> >>>> The web and digital photography helped these three become ubiquitous. >> >> ^^ >> >>>> But as soon as you get into professional image processing you often need >>>> something more sophisticated. >>> >>> Riiiiight. Like PSD for example, which is documented. Perhaps not >>> WELL, but it's documented. (as you know intimately from your work on >>> that parser) >> >> As I also said: It's not documented sufficiently to reconstruct any non >> trivial image. Only Photoshop can rasterise a PSD (and even then, it >> must be undamaged, and you have to find a sufficiently new version of >> Photoshop, etc). Calling what Adobe provides "documentation" isn't fair >> to real documentors. :) >> >> --Toby >> > From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Aug 31 19:30:50 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:30:50 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> On 8/31/2011 7:51 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 31/08/11 10:18 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> don't forget raw files >> > > Do you mean Camera RAW? Yes that is a mysterious format, and has proven > difficult to reverse engineer, I believe. > > --T I don't believe Nikon or Canon (or others) have released the spec for their RAW formats which differ per manufacturer. Nikon claims to offer the spec and/or SDK to "bona fide" developers --- but I have no idea how you might qualify for this distinction. Nikon "encrypts" the white balance information using data from the other publicly readable fields. It is trivially decrypted. I'm pretty sure I've read photoshop books mentioning the fact that even Adobe had (has) to reverse engineer the formats. In any case, there are multiple websites that list the basic format of the files, they are supported in most 3rd party programs, under dcraw, and so on. Adobe does have their Digital Negative .DNG, which is publicly documented, the spec. available online and so forth. They push people to convert their raw camera files to .DNG which is fine --- but of course any proprietary extensions that Adobe doesn't reverse engineer or have a corresponding field to is simply not copied and 'lost' in the conversion. Keith From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 31 19:50:48 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 20:50:48 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> On 31/08/11 8:30 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 8/31/2011 7:51 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 31/08/11 10:18 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >>> don't forget raw files >>> >> >> Do you mean Camera RAW? Yes that is a mysterious format, and has proven >> difficult to reverse engineer, I believe. >> >> --T > > I don't believe Nikon or Canon (or others) have released the spec for > their RAW formats which differ per manufacturer. > > Nikon claims to offer the spec and/or SDK to "bona fide" developers --- > but I have no idea how you might qualify for this distinction. > > Nikon "encrypts" the white balance information using data from the other > publicly readable fields. It is trivially decrypted. > > I'm pretty sure I've read photoshop books mentioning the fact that even > Adobe had (has) to reverse engineer the formats. > > In any case, there are multiple websites that list the basic format of > the files, they are supported in most 3rd party programs, under dcraw, > and so on. > > Adobe does have their Digital Negative .DNG, which is publicly > documented, the spec. available online and so forth. They push people to > convert their raw camera files to .DNG which is fine --- but of course > any proprietary extensions that Adobe doesn't reverse engineer or have a > corresponding field to is simply not copied and 'lost' in the conversion. > This is where Dave's "idiots" argument is completely cancelled. If your camera spits out data in an indecipherable format, what choice do you have? Only to boycott the manufacturer, and that hasn't seemed to work. --Toby > Keith > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 31 20:00:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:00:36 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2011 08:50 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Adobe does have their Digital Negative .DNG, which is publicly >> documented, the spec. available online and so forth. They push people to >> convert their raw camera files to .DNG which is fine --- but of course >> any proprietary extensions that Adobe doesn't reverse engineer or have a >> corresponding field to is simply not copied and 'lost' in the conversion. > > This is where Dave's "idiots" argument is completely cancelled. If your > camera spits out data in an indecipherable format, what choice do you > have? Only to boycott the manufacturer, and that hasn't seemed to work. *sigh* I guess you really don't have anything better to do. What you said might be true if the only way these cameras stored data was in "RAW" format. Fortunately, this is not the case. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 31 20:04:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 18:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110831180421.N94156@shell.lmi.net> > any proprietary extensions that Adobe doesn't reverse engineer or have a > corresponding field to is simply not copied and 'lost' in the conversion. . . . and therefore a lossy conversion From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 31 20:34:44 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:34:44 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5EE134.4070505@telegraphics.com.au> On 31/08/11 9:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/31/2011 08:50 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Adobe does have their Digital Negative .DNG, which is publicly >>> documented, the spec. available online and so forth. They push people to >>> convert their raw camera files to .DNG which is fine --- but of course >>> any proprietary extensions that Adobe doesn't reverse engineer or have a >>> corresponding field to is simply not copied and 'lost' in the >>> conversion. >> >> This is where Dave's "idiots" argument is completely cancelled. If your >> camera spits out data in an indecipherable format, what choice do you >> have? Only to boycott the manufacturer, and that hasn't seemed to work. > > *sigh* > > I guess you really don't have anything better to do. > > What you said might be true if the only way these cameras stored data > was in "RAW" format. Fortunately, this is not the case. > JPEG is an inferior option, especially for pro users, as you know. The user really is corralled here (and in other cases). --Toby > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 31 20:52:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:52:58 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5EE134.4070505@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> <4E5EE134.4070505@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5EE57A.5050207@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2011 09:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> This is where Dave's "idiots" argument is completely cancelled. If your >>> camera spits out data in an indecipherable format, what choice do you >>> have? Only to boycott the manufacturer, and that hasn't seemed to work. >> >> *sigh* >> >> I guess you really don't have anything better to do. >> >> What you said might be true if the only way these cameras stored data >> was in "RAW" format. Fortunately, this is not the case. > > JPEG is an inferior option, especially for pro users, as you know. The > user really is corralled here (and in other cases). I agree with this 100%, for the same reasons you're aware of. However, at issue here is whether or not the images will be LOST simply because they're stored digitally, which is, at this point, all but impossible. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Aug 31 20:58:56 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 21:58:56 -0400 Subject: RQDX3 DEVOFFLINE Problems In-Reply-To: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> References: <05d401cc675c$50c1ebc0$f245c340$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4E5EE6E0.5050001@compsys.to> >Rob Jarratt wrote: >I have a MicroVAX II in a BA123 enclosure and I am experiencing some >problems getting it to see the RD53. Whenever I try to boot I just get the >error DEVOFFLINE and the Ready light on the front panel goes out when this >happens (you can't get it to switch on again if you press the button a few >times). > > Whenever I used an RD53 in a BA123 with the M9058 distribution board, I always set the DS3 jumper for all hard drives. I don't know if the RD53 will also work with the DS1, DS2 or DS4. However, it definitely will work with the DS3. I agree that it is likely that the M9058 distribution is the most likely problem since that RD53 drive works with on a BA23 with the same RQDX3 and all of the cables. However, I don't know enough about hardware to really be sure. >The RD53 is known to work as it will boot in a MicroVAX 2000. The RQDX3 also >works as I have tested it in a working MicroVAX II (BA23). I have tested the >cable from the RQDX3 to the M9058 distribution board. I have also tested the >cable from the M9058 to the front panel. I have tested the front panel >button and it seems to be right (it shorts two terminals when depressed, >leaving the Open Circuit when it is out). I have swapped the cables from the >distribution board to the drive with another set. > > In the BA23 box, the first hard drive MUST have the DS3 jumper. If you have a 6 button front panel, then it is also possible to use the RQDX2 or RQDX3 controller with a second RD53 in which case the second RD53 MUST have the DS4 jumper. It is also possible to set up an alternate circuit which can be used instead of a 6 button front panel in a BA23, but the first hard drive MUST has the DS3 jumper and the second hard drive must have the DS4 jumper. If you forget and use both hard drives with the DS3 jumper and the WRITE PROTECT buttons are not turned on, then I have noted (from personal experience - once was enough to NEVER forget that sinking feeling) that the LLF (Low Level Format) is lost on BOTH hard drives. There has been mention of: >Peter Turnbull wrote: >Does the RD53 have a terminator resistor pack in it? R7 on a RD53 is a ZERO OHM resistor which the RQDX2 and RQDX3 require in order to recognize the Micropolis 1325 (also 1335D) as an RD53. It is possible to take the PC version of the Micropolis 1325 and solder in pins where the R7 resistor would be located. A wire wrap between the pins is then sufficient to take the place of the zero ohm resistor. There have also been too many notes about the failure of the RD53 drive due to the heads being stuck to consider the RD53 as a reliable drive. My suggestion is to NEVER rely on the data on an RD53 once the drive is powered down. Jerome Fine From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Aug 31 21:08:07 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:08:07 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5EE907.6070001@verizon.net> On 8/31/2011 9:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/31/2011 08:50 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Adobe does have their Digital Negative .DNG, which is publicly >>> documented, the spec. available online and so forth. They push people to >>> convert their raw camera files to .DNG which is fine --- but of course >>> any proprietary extensions that Adobe doesn't reverse engineer or have a >>> corresponding field to is simply not copied and 'lost' in the >>> conversion. >> >> If your >> camera spits out data in an indecipherable format, what choice do you >> have? Only to boycott the manufacturer, and that hasn't seemed to work. > What you said might be true if the only way these cameras stored data > was in "RAW" format. Fortunately, this is not the case. Right. Of course you can also use TIFF, which is somewhere in between. It's not lossy like jpeg, stores 16-bit (many cameras' sensors output 14), but still permanently bakes the white balance. Of the crowd who support keeping the RAW images around (some just post-process immediately to TIFF or JPEG, and discard the .RAW) suggest converting to .DNG, and keeping both the RAW and DNG. Of course everything is mostly duplicated, but it's my feeling that original disk space, backup disk space, and bandwidth is cheap and so I couldn't care less about sort of doubling my requirements. Practically speaking, I don't shoot more than a few thousand images per year, and so it's not enough data to really worry about. If I was a wedding photog or something, my practice would be a little different. (Yes, for those quick at math, it's over 100GB per year) Oh, and to address boycotting a company over the practice, it's just not really practical. Most (all?) manufacturers do this. They all give you a utility to convert to more convenient formats. Unfortunately, their marketing depts try to leverage the format in sales -- saying, "look at the neat stuff we can do with our RAW files". Usually the benefits are very minor. Besides, there's some "vendor lock-in" when you buy Nikon (or whomever's) lenses --- you would have to sell your stuff second hand and then rebuy a different manufacturer, just to deal with basically the same problems. The third party lens manufacturers that produce compatible lenses are usually sub-standard(but admittedly cheaper) -- the glass from Nikon is better than tamron, sigma, and so on. Not to mention, there are some real benefits to using Nikon glass on Nikon body. An example is auto-correction of lens flaws (perhaps, say, chromatic aberration) inside the body. Keith From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Aug 31 21:07:48 2011 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:07:48 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5EE57A.5050207@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> <4E5EE134.4070505@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EE57A.5050207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E5EE8F4.9030908@telegraphics.com.au> On 31/08/11 9:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/31/2011 09:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> This is where Dave's "idiots" argument is completely cancelled. If your >>>> camera spits out data in an indecipherable format, what choice do you >>>> have? Only to boycott the manufacturer, and that hasn't seemed to work. >>> >>> *sigh* >>> >>> I guess you really don't have anything better to do. >>> >>> What you said might be true if the only way these cameras stored data >>> was in "RAW" format. Fortunately, this is not the case. >> >> JPEG is an inferior option, especially for pro users, as you know. The >> user really is corralled here (and in other cases). > > I agree with this 100%, for the same reasons you're aware of. However, > at issue here is whether or not the images will be LOST simply because > they're stored digitally, which is, at this point, all but impossible. > You have to concede that if they are archived as vendor RAW - which is pretty much the only pro option - they are not necessarily reconstructible at some future point unless all the proprietary toolchain can be made to work. And since this typically depends on closed source tools full of obsolescence bombs (e.g. Activation, runtime compatibility, etc) - it's far from a sure thing. Yes, it's all avoidable human silliness, na?vety and greed... --T > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 31 21:19:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:19:57 -0400 Subject: scarcity of digital preservation efforts - was Re: eBay... Yikes! In-Reply-To: <4E5EE8F4.9030908@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AADAB.7060207@neurotica.com> <4E5AC89C.8090203@telegraphics.com.au> <20110828164259.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AE759.3000003@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AED61.8070902@neurotica.com> <20110828192639.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5B11BB.3090007@neurotica.com> <4E5B8ACE.60304@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D44BD.7000600@neurotica.com> <4E5D7797.3060904@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D8063.1090500@neurotica.com> <4E5D89F5.8040408@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5D94B2.5090302@neurotica.com> <4E5E2316.80209@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EC8EE.20405@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED23A.9090205@verizon.net> <4E5ED6E8.2030601@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ED934.4010100@neurotica.com> <4E5EE134.4070505@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5EE57A.5050207@neurotica.com> <4E5EE8F4.9030908@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4E5EEBCD.8050200@neurotica.com> On 08/31/2011 10:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> This is where Dave's "idiots" argument is completely cancelled. If your >>>>> camera spits out data in an indecipherable format, what choice do you >>>>> have? Only to boycott the manufacturer, and that hasn't seemed to work. >>>> >>>> *sigh* >>>> >>>> I guess you really don't have anything better to do. >>>> >>>> What you said might be true if the only way these cameras stored data >>>> was in "RAW" format. Fortunately, this is not the case. >>> >>> JPEG is an inferior option, especially for pro users, as you know. The >>> user really is corralled here (and in other cases). >> >> I agree with this 100%, for the same reasons you're aware of. However, >> at issue here is whether or not the images will be LOST simply because >> they're stored digitally, which is, at this point, all but impossible. > > You have to concede that if they are archived as vendor RAW - which is > pretty much the only pro option - they are not necessarily > reconstructible at some future point unless all the proprietary > toolchain can be made to work. And since this typically depends on > closed source tools full of obsolescence bombs (e.g. Activation, runtime > compatibility, etc) - it's far from a sure thing. Yes, I will concede that storing data in proprietary, undocumented, "suitware" formats puts that data at tremendous risk of loss. Smart people don't do it. Dumb people get what they've got coming. > Yes, it's all avoidable human silliness, na?vety and greed... Yes. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From james at machineroom.info Thu Aug 25 02:15:24 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 08:15:24 +0100 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4E55F68C.9060803@machineroom.info> On 25/08/2011 06:39, J Blaser < wrote: > From today's (August 24) Wall Street Journal front page: > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html?mod=WSJ_Ahed_AutomatedTypes > > > Written as a bit of a puff piece, but interesting nonetheless, given > the national reach of the WSJ. It might (though I doubt it) spur a > few Wall Street types to take a keener interest in retro gear, making > things dearer and harder for us homie hobbyists to acquire. :) > > Kudo's to Ian (King) and Rich (Alderson), et al. > > -- Jared > > But that takes away what, for me anyway, is one of the most fun aspects of this hobby - the hunt! From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Aug 25 15:08:57 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 15:08:57 -0500 Subject: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Do these even exist? I have this vision of them being stripped and scrapped for junk at some time. I read somewhere where people have made big iron replicas.... On Thursday, August 25, 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > The obvious asnwer to the subject: line is 'Dr ARD' :-) > > -tony > > From go at ao-cs.com Thu Aug 25 18:31:08 2011 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 16:31:08 -0700 Subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer In-Reply-To: <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> References: <4e55e043.a98aec0a.6f94.1627@mx.google.com> <7e4dfe845493248104daa2240e2ca957@cs.ubc.ca> <4E561445.1050607@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E56DB3C.3020207@ao-cs.com> I know that Oregon State University received four (maybe six) Stretch memory modules sometime in the 70s. I *think* they came from Livermore. I was personally involved in a project to (successfully) interface one of the beasts to our home-grown computer (Nebula) replacing it's 4k words of glass-delay-line memory with 32K of core. If I recall correctly, the stretch memory units were 16k X 72 bit data, of which we used 34 bits (Nebula was 32 bit + two additional tag bits not participating in arithmetic or logic operations.) We ran this unit for a few years. The units were originally acquired with the eye of adding them to our CDC 3300 system (we had a pretty savvy team at the computer center building all sorts of addons to our system) but the project was dropped for some reason. In the shuffle, our Nebula team glommed onto one for it's use and we build a really nice interface with multi-channel DMA capability. Unfortunately, the units were scrapped after I left school. We DID make our changes without ANY mods to the stretch memory "just in case." -Gary On 08/25/2011 02:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the (few) 7030s (STRETCH) > have survived ..? > > I suppose it depends on what you mean by "survived". Certainly there > are none that are operational, or even that could theoretically be > made operational without fabricating a lot of replacement equipment. > > CHM has most of the Livermore machine, which unfortunately is missing > the core memory, disk, and the original console typewriter. When the > machine was auctioned, one person bid on it to try to preserve the > system, but others bid on the core memory and the console typewriter. > Apparently the person that bid on the typewriter really only wanted a > Selectric typewriter, and didn't need the special one used for the > 7030. CHM is displaying the 7030 programmer's console with a normal > Selectric. (There were probably less than a dozen of the Selectric > model for the 7030 manufactured.) > > > I have never been able to find any details of the ultimate disposition > of the other six 7030 systems. > > Very little software for the 7030 still exists. The Computer History > Museum has printed listings of some software, and Al has scanned some > (or perhaps all) of it. > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 13:34:56 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4EE4A9.1070603@att.net> Message-ID: <1314383696.64391.YahooMailClassic@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 8/19/11, steve shumaker wrote: > color monitor or mono?? mouse > missing in action? I sent 2 6300 mice to a guy in Italy. Maybe he'll send you one back LOL LOL From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 13:41:22 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4EF6DC.6050007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1314384082.84676.YahooMailClassic@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > ? Overall they are very nice machines. Oh no they're not. Nobody told me the cpu guts were buried under the motherboard, so I threw one out (I found it in the snow in Freehold, NJ alongside route 9). And those darned emi copper springs were always falling all over the place. Ok, the issue is it was made kind of too well. But nobody cares. It's a basic pain. I still do have 1 though (I think). And maybe even the Xerox ??? which was it's twin brother. The other twin brother wore the actual Olivetti tags. I want the color card real bad though. And the monitor. I think I know a bloke who has it but all of a sudden he found religion, and is crazy about everything that says AT & T on it. This unit wasn't even made by A*, and the monitor is probably Mitsubishi (but that's just a wild guess, and likely incorrect anyway). From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 26 13:43:38 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone interested in an AT&T 6300? In-Reply-To: <4E4F10BC.8050806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1314384218.96887.YahooMailClassic@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 8/19/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Forgot to mention that it comes with a set of manuals, > if you need > > them. > > ? I don't, but I'd definitely keep them out of the > dumpster. Who say he has to put them in the dumpster. Just put them along a major thoroughfare in Eugene. Someone will be by before long. From jonas at otter.se Fri Aug 26 19:38:13 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 02:38:13 +0200 Subject: Getting a Sun Ultra 5 To Work In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E583C75.4060202@otter.se> On 2011-08-26 19:00, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> > > I think the contents would be disappointing, and prob'ly not worth >>> > > breaking them open. They are glued. I could prob'ly cut the glue joint >>> > > and pry one open, but it would be much more fun to use a LARGE mallet ot >>> > > open it. > On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> > I preFer to open things up in the least destructive way possible. Often > That depends on the thing, and whether re-assembly is to be considered. > Unlike ARD, some of us sometimes feel that the greatest value that some > things have may be as a recipient of mindless brutal violence. (even > though neither SC817 bears any resemblance to a college administrator) > >> > the reason for opening some is at least to investigate the internals, if >> > not repair them, so the less damage done the batter. Hitting it with a >> > mallet/hammer could break an intenral PCB (if there is one) making >> > tracing tracks a lot harder... > Well, the largest mallet that I have handy is only 4 pounds, so I'm going > to mail it to Poughkeepsie, instead. THAT might subject it to enough > impact(s) to open it. If not, then somebody else can maturely and > carefully unseal it. Hit it with a college administrator? ;-) /Jonas From jeffj at panix.com Sat Aug 27 22:17:33 2011 From: jeffj at panix.com (Jeff Jonas) Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: what's that watermelon doing there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> What do watermelons have to do with Buckaroo Banzai? > During a chase scene, the camera pans past a watermelon in a large > hydraulic press. Jeff Goldblum's character asks "why is there a > watermelon there?" The response is simply, "I'll tell you later", > and that's the end of it. Jeff (and the audience) never find out. Somewhere I heard the answer: the Banzai Institute was working on watermelons with a rind tough enough to withstand air drops. But the need for them went away before they were perfected. Or perhaps they were too much rind, not enough fruit inside. From doug at doughq.com Sun Aug 28 17:24:16 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 08:24:16 +1000 Subject: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5ABB52.80302@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8B2.7060100@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5ABB52.80302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I learnt something today :-) Hopefully this wasn't TL for the TL;DR: people :-P O.M.G Doug On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 8:04 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/28/2011 05:56 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> TL;DR: Just because something is ubiquitously used today does NOT mean >>> >> ^^^^^ >> >> This drives me up the wall. I don't care what the acronym stands for, it >> MEANS, "I'm intellectually lazy and cannot be bothered with reading >> further." >> >> If you don't like the point someone is trying to make, either ignore it >> or argue it, don't go all emo-douchebag about it. >> > > I didn't even know what "TL;DR" meant, so I ignored it. Abbreviating for > the sake of abbreviating is childish. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From doug at doughq.com Sun Aug 28 21:52:56 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:52:56 +1000 Subject: Difficulties of digital preservation - was Re: eBay... Yikes! (PDP-1 Handbook) In-Reply-To: <4E5AF4F3.4020101@neurotica.com> References: <4E5A9CC4.7050307@neurotica.com> <4E5AA8CB.9070602@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AC6BB.1070608@telegraphics.com.au> <4E5AE62F.2060202@neurotica.com> <20110828182800.L49031@shell.lmi.net> <4E5AF4F3.4020101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I have a suspicion that most prople (99%) who use these products don't even consider the data archival activities of the producs. Users simply want to use a program to make an output, be it a spreadsheet or letter, or resume. Once the output is there, they probably don't care about getting it back. The closest to caring that have probably come, is how to move their music collection to a new digital player. It is only a small minority of us who care about being able to get a file back - And then, it is only a smaller set of us who actually can. (sigh) And - no - I don't believe that sticking it into the cloud will help. My archival yardstick is my copy of "The Womens Journal' that I have on my book shelf from 1820, and to compare, even a text editor to that..... Nothing comes close to paper, and paper is not that long lasting. Doug On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 08/28/2011 09:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Now we could talk about all the world's data locked up in MSOOXML... >>>> >>> >> Is that some sort of "cloud computing"/"there is only need for half a >> dozen computers"? >> > > Yep, that's it. Boy are the people who fall for THAT crap going to be > surprised in a couple of years. > > > Well, the fools that use that kind of garbage get what they've got >>> coming to them. Microsoft doesn't even TRY to hide their whole vendor >>> lock-in campaign. People who fall for it? Screw 'em. >>> >> >> Did MICROS~1 come up with that concept on their own, or did they lift that >> one from Steve Jobs? >> > > MICROS~! has it down to a science. > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From jonas at otter.se Mon Aug 29 16:52:12 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:52:12 +0200 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 96, Issue 32 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68fdfc6ebfc2eb9ccd9a284fdc6ed8ec@otter.se> On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 19:26:00 -0700 (PDT), Fred Cisin wrote: > > You, sir, underestimate the prevalence and power of stupidity! > The administration of the college, for example, is losing critical > data on > a daily basis. Nothing short of defenestration will stop them from > losing > it. Last month, the amount of comp time that I have accumulated (a > year!) > had to be recreated from post-it notes on a cubicle wall. > Einstein is claimed to have said "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." He must have worked at your college. And I'm convinced he was right. /Jonas From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 30 10:52:05 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:52:05 +0100 Subject: mess.org In-Reply-To: <4E5D037B.8090302@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30/08/2011 16:36, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> O >>> >>> A >> >> I, I, I... > > (Newcastle?) Y-I. > > Peace... Sridhar I'm from Newcastle, whey aye! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From phil at ultimate.com Tue Aug 30 13:54:27 2011 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:54:27 -0400 Subject: Looking for SunOS 4.1.* (sun3) cd image In-Reply-To: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201108292008.p7TK8QPH074329@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <201108301854.p7UIsRHh007428@ultimate.com> (I had privately written I thought I had 4.1.3U1). I did two better than 4.1.3U1, and found "Solaris 1.0.1" (aka SunOS 4.1.2 + OW2), but it's SPARC only. It looks like 4.1.1U1 was the last for Sun3 (and Sun2 was supported in 4.0.3, tho I'm sure it was AWFUL slow!!)! Looks like the ingredients (including 4.1.1U1) are available at: http://www.sun3arc.org/BootTapes/index.phtml Net boot docs at: http://sites.inka.de/pcde/site/documentation_files/sunos_network_boot.html And information about CD vs tape layout (Appendix A): http://www.sun3zoo.de/en/install.html (But I imagine making a bootable CD would produce many coasters first). I'd probably do a diskless boot, format (partition) and dd the miniroot in, and do a disk install from there (or just keep it diskless). Good luck! Phil BTW I have a complete SunOS 4.0 doc set (in boxes), with 4.0.3 update, and a 4.1.2 install manual free to anyone who pays shippping, and will scan them, and make them available for free! I also have a mess of SPARC equipment I saved from the dumpster: two SS10, an SS4 and an SS5 (one with bad power supply) and a bunch of "lunchbox" systems (IPC, IPX, Classic, LX), a Sun QIC drive, and a mess of SCSI cables. From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Aug 30 20:34:17 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:34:17 +1000 Subject: Tony Sale passed In-Reply-To: References: <4E5D2590.6050901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <904DBD9E-3B54-4105-A0F0-F4AA94C79D47@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 31/08/2011, at 4:48 AM, Ian King wrote: > Thank you for sharing this, Al. Rich Alderson and I had the privilege and pleasure of meeting Tony last year at The National Museum of Computing. As he showed us the Colossus, he bounced around like a kid showing off his newest toys to a close friend. It is hard to believe that such a vital spirit is no longer with us. I was unable to join Rich and Ian then (I was stuck in Canada due to ash) but visited the NMoC in November last year. I didn't get to meet Tony but saw him taking a 'power nap' in his office next to Colossus! I only hope I can have such commitment when I'm 80! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From rborsuk at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 21:11:55 2011 From: rborsuk at gmail.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2011 22:11:55 -0400 Subject: TI CD 1400 Drive [for sale / offers] Message-ID: <2EB91C88-0B94-43A0-82D5-7161B8443917@gmail.com> I need to get rid of this drive. I don't have the TI990 computer for it anymore. If I don't get any offers in the next couple of days I'm going to scrap it out (that said - this is not free). It's a TI CD 1400 branded drive. Magnetic Peripherals 944B drive. The unit weighs 175 pounds so it puts out of the standard shipping range. Please send any offers off list. Drive is located in Port Huron, Michigan. Rob pics at http://tinyurl.com/3hdv62b From nathan at nathanpralle.com Wed Aug 31 22:59:24 2011 From: nathan at nathanpralle.com (Nathan Pralle) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 22:59:24 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model II Digging Message-ID: <4E5F031C.3080501@nathanpralle.com> Finally pulled out the TRS-80 Model II tonight with the intention of actually working on it for once (shocker!) and trying to get it operational. It powers up, drive spins, screen comes on, lights glow, etc. Insert any one of about 20 8" floppies that I have that are specifically for the Model Ii and..... Nothing. Well. BOOT ERROR RS, which is translated as, "Disk not in RadioShack format." I'd believe it for one or two, but all of them? It seems unlikely, although I could blame bit-rot perhaps. I'm hoping it has something to do with the hardware instead. Popping it open, the unit powers on and the drive head is dropped to the spinning disk, then lifted, then dropped, then lifted, and the error occurs. I cannot see if the head is close enough to the disk or not (and I have *no* idea of the tolerances anyway) and am not sure how I'd adjust it -- or drive speed, etc. if that's an issue. So, anyone got ideas? There *is* a remote possibility that all the disks I got were wiped either by the previous owner or in some sort of magnetic disaster, but they're well-labeled and came from a working haul, so I have to imagine that they're still good. Or at least, I'm hoping they are. (The bits are damned near visible on these things, after all.) Your ideas and good guesses welcome and very much appreciated. Nathan -- *Nathan E. Pralle* Computer Geek www.nathanpralle.com www.philosyphia.com www.twitter.com/NPralle