From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 1 01:54:03 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 02:54:03 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Sinclair MK-14, Micral R2E, Scelbi 8H, Datapoint 2200, Mark 8 Mini, Kenbak and/or PDP Straight 8 In-Reply-To: <4D95374F.7090209@comcast.net> References: <4D95374F.7090209@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D95768B.2010205@snarc.net> > If you have any of these please email me, I am a serious collector and > willing to make an offer worth your while. That's quite a wish list! Good luck. From evan at snarc.net Fri Apr 1 01:59:17 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 02:59:17 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Sinclair MK-14, Micral R2E, Scelbi 8H, Datapoint 2200, Mark 8 Mini, Kenbak and/or PDP Straight 8 In-Reply-To: <4D95768B.2010205@snarc.net> References: <4D95374F.7090209@comcast.net> <4D95768B.2010205@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D9577C5.4060006@snarc.net> > >> If you have any of these please email me, I am a serious collector >> and willing to make an offer worth your while. > > That's quite a wish list! Good luck. > PS - if anyone has a Micral, Scelbi, Datapoint, Mark-8, or Kenbak and doesn't want to see them wind up in a private collection, then contact * me * and we'll restore them and put them in our public museum exhibits. :) We've already got a Straight-8. :) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 1 02:36:11 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 09:36:11 +0200 Subject: Available: Sinclair MK-14, Micral R2E, Scelbi 8H, Datapoint 2200, Mark 8 Mini, Kenbak and/or PDP Straight 8 Message-ID: <20110401073611.GA14623@Update.UU.SE> Hi I've got these machines and would like to see them go to a serious collector. Make me an offer I can't refuse. /AprilOne From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 08:46:51 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 14:46:51 +0100 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 25 March 2011 22:13, Chris M wrote: > thanks mon. But I'd rather avoid shipping it from a different continent. > > I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian incidentally, but it's not because I believe I'm eating far distant cousins. Oh, I'm sorry, have I given offence at some time? I do apologise and will try not to do so again. Just for reference, to which religion do you belong? I ask as you are manifestly not a Christian, as your response is in direct contradiction of Matthew 5:39, not to mention Matthew 5:40, Proverbs 20:22 and 24:29 and indeed most of what Yeshweh of Nazareth preached according to the Gospels. It also goes directly against Leviticus 19:18 and Mark 12:31 and so on. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 08:48:33 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 14:48:33 +0100 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 28 March 2011 21:15, Tony Duell wrote: >> I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian > ?^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > If this is s joke, I think it's in very bad taste. If not, I think it's > objectionable. > > -tony I agree. Sadly, it is a common and entirely typical type of response from American religious types online. I have been thrown off mailing lists and subjected to hate-mail campaigns repeatedly for not agreeing with their professed religion. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Apr 1 09:54:15 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:54:15 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink (and seriously OT) In-Reply-To: References: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D95E717.60602@verizon.net> On 4/1/2011 9:48 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 28 March 2011 21:15, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> If this is s joke, I think it's in very bad taste. If not, I think it's >> objectionable. >> >> -tony > > I agree. Sadly, it is a common and entirely typical type of response > from American religious types online. I have been thrown off mailing > lists and subjected to hate-mail campaigns repeatedly for not agreeing > with their professed religion. I actually thought his post was comical.(not in a haha way, but a "Are you really serious?" way) I'm not particularly religious. His comment was so over the top that he was likely trolling for a response. Either way, the best way to handle it is to ignore it --- don't feed the trolls. While I really don't want to defend bad treatment you may have received in the past from your so-called-American-religious-types, I'd argue that in terms of tolerance, you can do considerably worse in dealings with several other cultures. I think that any form of extremism, whether it be religious or otherwise, is bad. There are religions that specifically teach intolerance(and much worse) but my experience with Catholicism (for example) is that this isn't one of them. It's actually quite the opposite. As you correctly point out, bad behavior, like what you are talking about above, is specifically NOT consistent with the teachings and is in direct contradiction. I believe there are some internal inconsistencies with the source material to begin with --- so there problems to overcome there, anyways --- but I think they are on pretty safe ground in this department in most (all?) contemporary teachings. Not that this was true historically, of course. While I'm trying to avoid becoming the spokesperson for any particular faith (or faith in general --- and frankly, normally find myself on the other side of this argument!) we are taught to open our arms and try to bring offenders back around to much more reasonable ground. I personally see really bad behavior (and I think the original comment was fairly tame) like you mentioned to be a mental deficiency -- as a type of personality disorder. I find it helpful to consider the person as being "sick"(ala a cold, or a flu) and in need of care and education. Most police stations, for example, deal with crazy people with considerably more "kid gloves" than what I call "bad guys" even though their outward behaviors might be identical. The police want to get these guys help, and they do so through a hospital, not through rough treatment in jail. Keith P.S. This is my personal experience. I'm definitely NOT an expert on any of the topics here! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 1 10:06:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 11:06:15 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D95E9E7.3050502@neurotica.com> On 4/1/11 9:48 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 28 March 2011 21:15, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> If this is s joke, I think it's in very bad taste. If not, I think it's >> objectionable. > > I agree. Sadly, it is a common and entirely typical type of response > from American religious types online. I have been thrown off mailing > lists and subjected to hate-mail campaigns repeatedly for not agreeing > with their professed religion. Yes. Many of my fellow Americans are really embarrassing me these days. I see what a lot of self-proclaimed "Christians" are doing and I just shake my head. That isn't the Christianity I grew up with. Not even close. It seems a lot of these people just run around flashing a Bible just to feel justified (or automatically "forgiven") in being a dick to other people. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 1 10:06:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 11:06:36 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D95E9FC.6060802@neurotica.com> On 4/1/11 9:46 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian incidentally, but it's not because I believe I'm eating far distant cousins. > > Oh, I'm sorry, have I given offence at some time? I do apologise and > will try not to do so again. > > Just for reference, to which religion do you belong? I ask as you are > manifestly not a Christian, as your response is in direct > contradiction of Matthew 5:39, not to mention Matthew 5:40, Proverbs > 20:22 and 24:29 and indeed most of what Yeshweh of Nazareth preached > according to the Gospels. It also goes directly against Leviticus > 19:18 and Mark 12:31 and so on. He shoots, he scores! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 1 10:14:43 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 08:14:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Sinclair MK-14, Micral R2E, Scelbi 8H, Datapoint 2200, Mark 8 Mini, Kenbak and/or PDP Straight 8 In-Reply-To: <4D95374F.7090209@comcast.net> Message-ID: <624026.90081.qm@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 3/31/11, Nick Allen wrote: > If you have any of these please email > me, I am a serious collector and willing to make an offer > worth your while. Hmm. I don't have any of those, but I *do* have a much rarer machine, from Commodore. Have you ever heard of the model 64? It's in great shape, only missing two keys. Comes with a stack of floppy disks full of games, and a "Datasette" drive. You just need the power cord. I'll sell it for only $750 - which is a great deal, these things go on eBay for thousands! -Ian (ah, April Fool's day. Such a wonderous time - full of invented products on online retailers, and mailing list nonsense such as this.) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 1 10:10:25 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 08:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Sinclair MK-14, Micral R2E, Scelbi 8H, Datapoint 2200, Mark 8 Mini, Kenbak and/or PDP Straight 8 In-Reply-To: <624026.90081.qm@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <624026.90081.qm@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 3/31/11, Nick Allen wrote: > >> If you have any of these please email >> me, I am a serious collector and willing to make an offer >> worth your while. > > Hmm. I don't have any of those, but I *do* have a much rarer machine, from Commodore. Have you ever heard of the model 64? > > It's in great shape, only missing two keys. Comes with a stack of floppy disks full of games, and a "Datasette" drive. You just need the power cord. > > I'll sell it for only $750 - which is a great deal, these things go on eBay for thousands! > > > -Ian > > (ah, April Fool's day. Such a wonderous time - full of invented products > on online retailers, and mailing list nonsense such as this.) > Damn. Here I thought I had at least $25k worth of LQQK! RAR!!!11! Commodore bits. *sulk* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 11:45:32 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 11:45:32 -0500 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink (and seriously OT) In-Reply-To: <4D95E717.60602@verizon.net> References: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D95E717.60602@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D96012C.2030606@gmail.com> Keith M wrote: > I actually thought his post was comical.(not in a haha way, but a "Are > you really serious?" way) Hmm, I read it in a 'ha-ha' way, to be honest, and assumed that the obligatory smiley had been omitted. I think Chris has been around on this list for a while, and the comment seemed a little out of character to be anything other than humor, surely? Anyway, aren't we long overdue for a really lengthy discussion on this list about guns? ;-) (sorry, Jay) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 1 11:51:19 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 09:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink (and seriously OT) In-Reply-To: <4D96012C.2030606@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Apr 1, 11 11:45:32 am" Message-ID: <201104011651.p31GpJOh007702@floodgap.com> > Anyway, aren't we long overdue for a really lengthy discussion on this list > about guns? ;-) (sorry, Jay) Yay! Loading Glock [****** ] 6/10 rounds -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When relatives are outlawed, only outlaws will have inlaws. ---------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 1 11:55:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 12:55:50 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink (and seriously OT) In-Reply-To: <4D96012C.2030606@gmail.com> References: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D95E717.60602@verizon.net> <4D96012C.2030606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D960396.3090003@neurotica.com> On 4/1/11 12:45 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Anyway, aren't we long overdue for a really lengthy discussion on this > list about guns? ;-) (sorry, Jay) [dave carefully oils 'delete' key in preparation] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 1 12:26:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 10:26:54 -0700 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink (and seriously OT) In-Reply-To: <201104011651.p31GpJOh007702@floodgap.com> References: <4D96012C.2030606@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Apr 1, 11 11:45:32 am", <201104011651.p31GpJOh007702@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D95A86E.28271.422FAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2011 at 9:51, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Anyway, aren't we long overdue for a really lengthy discussion on > > this list about guns? ;-) (sorry, Jay) > > Yay! Loading Glock [****** ] 6/10 rounds It's been awhile since I used my Weller D-550, but I figure that I could dust it off for something worth soldering... --Chuck From starbase89 at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 12:35:50 2011 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 13:35:50 -0400 Subject: ohio scientific haul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello! Yesterday I brought home a pile of OSI equipment. I got a Challenger II (in the blue, rectangular case,) a Challenger 4P case with keyboard (seems to connect to the main box as a keyboard,) two 5.25" disk drives in the style of the 4P and two joysticks. Inside the challenger are the following boards: 505 Rev B CPU/IO/Floppy 527 24k RAM 540 Rev B Video 567 Votrax Speech Synthesizer w/ external module; The Challenger II seems to have a well modified power supply, including and an added circuit board with two transformers, as well as four volt meters, mounted in cardboard and taped to the inside of the case. My first question in what is likely to be a long series is: If I intend to try and get it running, what is my first step? I'm not entirely sure what I'm going to do with the system yet. Its the first time I've had something of this caliber. I have no idea what its worth Thanks Joe -- Joseph Giliberti Jackson, New Jersey Come Visit the InfoAge Science History Learning Center and Museum Get more information at http://www.infoage.org From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 1 15:10:10 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:10:10 -0800 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45ec2f0a3166ec49099e5ea9979806e5@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 1, at 5:46 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 25 March 2011 22:13, Chris M wrote: >> thanks mon. But I'd rather avoid shipping it from a different >> continent. >> >> I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian >> incidentally, but it's not because I believe I'm eating far distant >> cousins. > ... > -- > Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 - In his first response offering a pentium chip to Chris, Liam said "contact me offlist, details in my .sig". - Amongst the details in Liam's .sig is a link to his profile. - In his profile, Liam declares himself an atheist and a vegetarian (amongst other things). I didn't know what Chris was alluding to when he made the comment, but I took it as just some tongue-in-cheek off-the-wall humour of the sort which - to my recollection - Chris has expressed in the past. I didn't take it as bad taste, intending offense, or trolling. I suspect those taking offense could do to lighten up. Those following the thread might also note who was the first to express they were taking offense. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 1 14:38:25 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 20:38:25 +0100 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <45ec2f0a3166ec49099e5ea9979806e5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <345669.30030.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <45ec2f0a3166ec49099e5ea9979806e5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D9629B1.8090508@philpem.me.uk> On 01/04/11 21:10, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 Apr 1, at 5:46 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> On 25 March 2011 22:13, Chris M wrote: >>> thanks mon. But I'd rather avoid shipping it from a different continent. >>> >>> I also don't do business w/heathen atheists. I'm also a vegetarian >>> incidentally, but it's not because I believe I'm eating far distant >>> cousins. [...] > I didn't know what Chris was alluding to when he made the comment, but I > took it as just some tongue-in-cheek off-the-wall humour of the sort > which - to my recollection - Chris has expressed in the past. Indeed. I read the "heathen atheists" comment with an implied "j/k" (i.e. "just kidding")... maybe that's just me 8^/ -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 14:02:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 20:02:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <20110331195403.89724A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Mar 31, 11 03:54:03 pm Message-ID: > For those on the left side of the atlantic, the old ratshack book > "Understanding Telephone Electronics" has a diagram and explanation of > the hybrid, among other useful things. Sam Hallas's web site (I forget the URL, but Google should find it) has some exceleltn information on this. This site has most of the 'N Diagrams' avaialbe to download (the N diagrams are essentailly the scheamtics of various telephones, bells, extension plans, etc that were used by the British Post Office) -- in fact a Google search for 'N diagram' is probably the easiset way to find it. It also has some educational maaterial used to train the Post Office telepghone engineers, including an excellent (and very clear) deascription of the 700 series phones including the hybrid and regualtor circuits. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 14:35:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 20:35:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <01b401cbefea$2324a160$696de420$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 31, 11 10:25:17 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks to everyone for their help on this. A new Schaffner FN 9222 6/06 > arrived this morning. I have just fitted it, without needing to modify Excellent!. I am not suprised it was the right size to drop straight in. > anything, and it works just fine. Or at least I get a green LED, now I need > to find out if the DELNI actually works or not :-) Sounds like the pwoer supply is doing something (LED on). From glansing at the printset, the logic doens't seen all that complicated, and should eb repairable if necessary. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 14:54:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 20:54:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: <4D950C41.1010705@jwsss.com> from "Jim Stephens" at Mar 31, 11 04:20:33 pm Message-ID: > I recall what you all are talking about, and it reminds me of the > silicon glue type stuff, minus the vinegar smell that the early versions One of my guesses, based on the fact that it doesn't seem to disolve in anyhting, was that it was a silicone. > If the temperature is an issue above water boiling point, one could use > hot oil to supply the temp, but it would still have a lot of heat, which > could damage it. Hmm.. Hot oil, if it gets too hot, has the annoying habit of catching fire and being a right pain ot extinguish! I'd rather not have that sort of thing in my workshop (it's fine if you have a temperature-controlled oil bath, it's much less fine if you're heating a pan of oil on the cooker. In fact one thing I was worried about when I tried the hot-air gun on it was that it could ignite. Since somebody refered me o an article on the web that suggests it's beeswax-based nadwill disolve in white spirit, I intent ot put the bits in a container of said solvent and leave them for some time to see if disolves at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 15:08:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 21:08:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink (and seriously OT) In-Reply-To: <4D96012C.2030606@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 1, 11 11:45:32 am Message-ID: > Anyway, aren't we long overdue for a really lengthy discussion on this list > about guns? ;-) (sorry, Jay) Yeah, OK... Does anyone know a procedure for settign the first anode (g2), gain and black level controls in an HP9836C monitor without needing an accurate photometer? (Electromn guns, in case you're wondering) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 15:10:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 21:10:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink (and seriously OT) In-Reply-To: <4D95A86E.28271.422FAA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 1, 11 10:26:54 am Message-ID: > > On 1 Apr 2011 at 9:51, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Anyway, aren't we long overdue for a really lengthy discussion on > > > this list about guns? ;-) (sorry, Jay) > > > > Yay! Loading Glock [****** ] 6/10 rounds > > It's been awhile since I used my Weller D-550, but I figure that I > could dust it off for something worth soldering... I am sure I mentioned trying a hot air gun (of the paint-stripper type) to shift that potting compound. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 15:13:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 21:13:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <4D9629B1.8090508@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 1, 11 08:38:25 pm Message-ID: > I read the "heathen atheists" comment with an implied "j/k" (i.e. "just > kidding")... maybe that's just me 8^/ Am I the only person here for whom 'implied JK' has a totally different meaning? -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Apr 1 16:22:30 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 22:22:30 +0100 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <89C4CC77BD3842A796C854DF2A3303E9@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: >> I read the "heathen atheists" comment with an implied "j/k" (i.e. >> "just kidding")... maybe that's just me 8^/ > > Am I the only person here for whom 'implied JK' has a totally > different meaning? Not sure about the "implied" part but the discussion has certainly flip-flopped around a bit hasn't it? Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 1 16:27:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 17:27:22 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D96433A.8040409@neurotica.com> On 4/1/11 4:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I read the "heathen atheists" comment with an implied "j/k" (i.e. "just >> kidding")... maybe that's just me 8^/ > > Am I the only person here for whom 'implied JK' has a totally different > meaning? 7473? ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 1 17:24:46 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:24:46 +0100 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: <01b401cbefea$2324a160$696de420$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Mar 31, 11 10:25:17 pm Message-ID: <022701cbf0bb$9cc99bc0$d65cd340$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 01 April 2011 20:36 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Smoke From PSU Socket > > > > > Thanks to everyone for their help on this. A new Schaffner FN 9222 > > 6/06 arrived this morning. I have just fitted it, without needing to > > modify > > Excellent!. I am not suprised it was the right size to drop straight in. > > > anything, and it works just fine. Or at least I get a green LED, now I > > need to find out if the DELNI actually works or not :-) > > Sounds like the pwoer supply is doing something (LED on). From glansing at > the printset, the logic doens't seen all that complicated, and should eb > repairable if necessary. > > -tony Later yesterday evening I was able to test it and the whole thing works fine. Now all I need to do is fix my out of tolerance MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 PSU and a PSU in a VAXstation 4000 VLC that "tweets" on and off. One of these days I might actually start to understand PSUs :-) Thanks again Rob From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 1 18:26:26 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 00:26:26 +0100 Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D965F22.40707@philpem.me.uk> On 29/03/11 20:03, Tony Duell wrote: > The actually IEC 320 spec (or whatever it's called now -- EN60320, > perhaps) is not cheap. I think I discovered that to gert the whole thing > would coat around \pounds1000 and (a) I don't have that sort of money and > (b) if I did, I'd have better things to spend it on. If it's been reissued by BSi, check with your local library. I know for a fact Leeds City Council has an active subscription to the BSi standards database, with full text -- meaning anyone with a valid Leeds library card can download anything with a BSi standard number. Your local library may have a similar agreement -- it's worth asking (or check your council's website). This is exactly how I got my mitts on a copy of the full set of SPDIF standards, for which IEC wanted several hundred pounds EACH. There are a good 20 of the little buggers, though only two of them are strictly necessary. A price of ?0 is infinitely nicer to the ol' wallet than one of ?4,000... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 1 23:27:51 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 20:27:51 -0800 Subject: another Mondrian/computer intersection Message-ID: So what is it with computers and Mondrian? http://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/the-web/20/390 (A little joke for those who remember a very old thread.) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 23:50:42 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 00:50:42 -0400 Subject: another Mondrian/computer intersection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > So what is it with computers and Mondrian? It works in a geeky sort of way? Much better than others artists, anyway. -- Will From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Apr 2 08:23:16 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 15:23:16 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Bitsavers broken again? Message-ID: Hi, it seems that there's a new issue with the bitsavers host. I regularly do an rsync for our mirror, but since a few days the connections are refused: rsync: failed to connect to bitsavers.org: Connection refused (146) rsync error: error in socket IO (code 10) at clientserver.c(122) [Receiver=3.0.7] Christian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Apr 2 09:44:36 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 07:44:36 -0700 Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: References: <4D950C41.1010705@jwsss.com> from "Jim Stephens" at Mar 31, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > > > If the temperature is an issue above water boiling point, one could use > > hot oil to supply the temp, but it would still have a lot of heat, which > > could damage it. > > Hmm.. Hot oil, if it gets too hot, has the annoying habit of catching > fire and being a right pain ot extinguish! I'd rather not have that sort > of thing in my workshop (it's fine if you have a temperature-controlled > oil bath, it's much less fine if you're heating a pan of oil on the > cooker. In fact one thing I was worried about when I tried the hot-air > gun on it was that it could ignite. > ---snip--- Peanut oil is the best for heating things. I is good for temperatures hot enough to melt solder. As for fires, always have a cover large enough for the container. Just put the cover over the fire. Dwight From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Apr 2 12:15:07 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 13:15:07 -0400 Subject: Bitsavers broken again? Message-ID: > it seems that there's a new issue with the bitsavers host. I regularly do > an rsync for our mirror, but since a few days the connections are refused: > > rsync: failed to connect to bitsavers.org: Connection refused (146) > rsync error: error in socket IO (code 10) at clientserver.c(122) > [Receiver=3.0.7] In AOL tradition, "Me Too" for my mirror ( http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ ). My presumption is that rsyncd simply isn't running at the far end. BTW, I'm gonna set up public rsync for the pdp-10 and pdp-11 archives here in my copious free time :-). Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 17:41:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:41:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <4D96433A.8040409@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 1, 11 05:27:22 pm Message-ID: > > Am I the only person here for whom 'implied JK' has a totally different > > meaning? > > 7473? ;) Preceisly. Or atleast that's one possible candidate. There re many others... The 74H71 is another, but the 74L71 isn't (I think this is the largest difference between ICs with the same number in different TTL families) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 17:49:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:49:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <022701cbf0bb$9cc99bc0$d65cd340$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 1, 11 11:24:46 pm Message-ID: > Now all I need to do is fix my out of tolerance MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 PSU I think the first thing you need to do with that one is to find out what the output voltages should be _and which pins they're on_ so you can see just what it is, or is not, doing. > and a PSU in a VAXstation 4000 VLC that "tweets" on and off. One of these A 'tweeting' PSU is generaly one that is trying to start up, detecting a problem, and then hutting down again, Possibly due to bad capcitors (often, but not always, on the output side. Maybe an overvoltage problem (so the crowbar circuit is tripping). Possibly a problem with the shutdown circuitry itslef (there isn't really a problem, but the shutdown is being triggered anyway) -- but whateveryou do, don't be tempted to disable protection circuits. I did once, when younger and more foolish, and ended up with transistors blown apart, metled track, and many other things to repair. > days I might actually start to understand PSUs :-) I've yet to fidn a really good book,web page on this. The way I learnt was to read the scheamtics and circuit descriptions of every docuemtned PSU I could find, to read all the data shets on the control ICs, etc. It is very difficult in my experience to repair an SMPSU without a schematic. You may be lucky and spot the bad component, but most of the time you need to work through the schematic logically. Alas the scheamtics of most modern-ish PSUs are unobtainable. I gnerally resort to tracing out the full schematic, then interpretting it, and only then starting to fix the thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 17:54:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:54:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Smoke From PSU Socket In-Reply-To: <4D965F22.40707@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 2, 11 00:26:26 am Message-ID: > > On 29/03/11 20:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > The actually IEC 320 spec (or whatever it's called now -- EN60320, > > perhaps) is not cheap. I think I discovered that to gert the whole thin= > g > > would coat around \pounds1000 and (a) I don't have that sort of money a= > nd > > (b) if I did, I'd have better things to spend it on. > > If it's been reissued by BSi, check with your local library. I suspect it has, actually. I also believe you can see the BSI standards (but not make photocopies, althpguh you can make handwritten notes) at the place near Kew Bridge in London. I've never tried it, though. > > I know for a fact Leeds City Council has an active subscription to the=20 > BSi standards database, with full text -- meaning anyone with a valid=20 > Leeds library card can download anything with a BSi standard number.=20 Interesting. I will look into this. > Your local library may have a similar agreement -- it's worth asking (or=20 > check your council's website). > > This is exactly how I got my mitts on a copy of the full set of SPDIF=20 > standards, for which IEC wanted several hundred pounds EACH. There are a=20 > good 20 of the little buggers, though only two of them are strictly=20 > necessary. A price of =A30 is infinitely nicer to the ol' wallet than one= > =20 > of =A34,000... Indeed. I still feel that standards docuemnts should be 'cost of reprodcution' only. Obviously they cna't be public domain (there has to be a restrictuion on distributing modified versions or there'd be terrible cnfusuion), But alas they're not, and are IMHO ridiculously expensive for what they are. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 2 13:22:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 19:22:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Apr 2, 11 07:44:36 am Message-ID: > Peanut oil is the best for heating things. I is good for temperatures > hot enough to melt solder. Yes, I think I read that somwhere... A bath of hot peanut oil can be used to recover bits from old PCBs. > As for fires=2C always have a cover large enough for the container. > Just put the cover over the fire. And whatever you do, dn't put water on it if it catches fire. I've seen this done as a demonstration, and it was spectacular (I am sure there's something similar on youtube). Anyway, getting back to the 425 Netowrk, thanks to the chap (I am sorry, I forget who it was) who pointed me to that artivle suggesting it would disolve in white spirit. I put the guts of the module nad the empty can in said solvent today. It does disolve the potting compound, albeit slowly. I have cleaned up the can with no problems at all, but I don;t waht to poke at the electronics too much for fear of damaging the wiring to the transformer, so I've left tht in the solvent. But it is doing the trick. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 2 14:00:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:00:53 -0700 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: <4D96433A.8040409@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 1, 11 05:27:22 pm, Message-ID: <4D970FF5.13104.7F381D@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2011 at 23:41, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Am I the only person here for whom 'implied JK' has a totally > > > different meaning? > > > > 7473? ;) > > Preceisly. Or atleast that's one possible candidate. There re many > others... The 74H71 is another, but the 74L71 isn't (I think this is > the largest difference between ICs with the same number in different > TTL families) Hmmm, I would have said uL923... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 2 14:01:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:01:27 -0700 Subject: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Apr 2, 11 07:44:36 am, Message-ID: <4D971017.238.7FBA9B@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2011 at 19:22, Tony Duell wrote: be). > > Anyway, getting back to the 425 Netowrk, thanks to the chap (I am > sorry, I forget who it was) who pointed me to that artivle suggesting > it would disolve in white spirit. You're welcome. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 2 14:12:08 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:12:08 -0500 Subject: classiccmp server Message-ID: <339275F56D8B4901908022BB1E1BC3A3@osa.local> With any luck, I will be taking down the classiccmp server sometime this weekend for hardware upgrades and a complete reformat/reload. This includes the new raid controller and all new hard drives. It may be tonight, or sometime tomorrow... or all heck may break loose in other areas of my life this weekend and it gets postponed. I just wanted to give a heads up that if you stop seeing list traffic (and the classiccmp-hosted websites) that it's most likely intentional. I'll try to keep everyone posted. Best, Jay From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 2 14:16:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 15:16:37 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <4D970FF5.13104.7F381D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D96433A.8040409@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 1, 11 05:27:22 pm, <4D970FF5.13104.7F381D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D977615.6000709@neurotica.com> On 4/2/11 3:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> 7473? ;) >> >> Preceisly. Or atleast that's one possible candidate. There re many >> others... The 74H71 is another, but the 74L71 isn't (I think this is >> the largest difference between ICs with the same number in different >> TTL families) > > Hmmm, I would have said uL923... You're dating yourself, RTL man. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 14:18:44 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 16:18:44 -0300 Subject: classiccmp server References: <339275F56D8B4901908022BB1E1BC3A3@osa.local> Message-ID: >With any luck, I will be taking down the classiccmp server sometime this >weekend for hardware upgrades and a >complete reformat/reload. This >includes the new raid controller and all new hard drives. It may be >tonight, or >sometime tomorrow... or all heck may break loose in other >areas of my life this weekend and it gets postponed. I just >wanted to give >a heads up that if you stop seeing list traffic (and the classiccmp-hosted >websites) that it's most likely >intentional. I'll try to keep everyone >posted. "I hope we can get away with this" :oD Good luck, Jay! From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 16:02:42 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 17:02:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: Hi, I have two Lisa 2s in my possession that both exhibit serious corrision from battery leakage. One is simply bad, the other is about the worst such situation I've ever laid eyes on. I was able to remove the battery packs to halt the degradation, but before I make a bad situation worse I thought I'd ask for some advice on how to proceed. I'm also trying to work out what the units might be worth. The deal with the seller is that I'm free to evaluate their condition and attempt to get one working unit out of the two. Assuming a nominally functional Lisa 2 with functional 10MB ProFile and fair cosmetic condition, what do folks think is a fair price for that unit (the owner wants whatever is left back, functioning or not)? Prices on eBay are really all over the map, so that's not of much help. Steve -- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 16:12:05 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 16:12:05 -0500 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <4D977615.6000709@neurotica.com> References: <4D96433A.8040409@neurotica.com> <4D970FF5.13104.7F381D@cclist.sydex.com> <4D977615.6000709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/2/11 3:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> ? ?7473? ;) >>> ...The 74H71 is another >> >> Hmmm, I would have said uL923... > > ?You're dating yourself, RTL man. ;) And now you can too... http://www.tinaja.com/ebooks/RTLcb.pdf (yes... Don Lancaster is ePublishing several of his own titles for free). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 2 16:42:21 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 14:42:21 -0700 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <4D977615.6000709@neurotica.com> References: <4D96433A.8040409@neurotica.com>, <4D970FF5.13104.7F381D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D977615.6000709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9735CD.9314.11309F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2011 at 15:16, Dave McGuire wrote: > You're dating yourself, RTL man. ;) I dated my lovely wife for awhile before we married, but I couldn't imagine dating myself. I'm lousy company. --- I have to admit that I really liked working with RTL--since gates used base-coupled inputs, it was easy using the same gate as either a logic element or in some analog application. Yes, I know you can use TTL and CMOS in some analog applications, but it's not nearly as easy. I've long thought it interesting that we started with RTL and 3V supplies, went to DTL and TTL with 6 and 5 volt supplies and are now back to 3V (although there are many lower-voltage applications). --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 2 17:03:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 18:03:12 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: <4D96433A.8040409@neurotica.com> <4D970FF5.13104.7F381D@cclist.sydex.com> <4D977615.6000709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D979D20.7040708@neurotica.com> On 4/2/11 5:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>>> 7473? ;) >>>> ...The 74H71 is another >>> >>> Hmmm, I would have said uL923... >> >> You're dating yourself, RTL man. ;) > > And now you can too... http://www.tinaja.com/ebooks/RTLcb.pdf Ethan, you insult me. I have a paper copy. ;) > (yes... Don Lancaster is ePublishing several of his own titles for free). Really! Don Lancaster rocks. Almost as much as Al. :-D -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Apr 2 17:22:37 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:22:37 +1200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration References: Message-ID: Hi Steve, I've just finished restoring a couple of Lisas. My situation was a little similar to yours. I bought three untested units. There were two Lisa 2's (minus the profiles) and one was a Lisa 2/10. I knew that the Lisa 2/10 had a fault in the I/O board and one of the Lisa 2s had a memory issue. The stack came with an extra power pack and one of the Lisas was missing a video card. That's all I knew. The lot cost $500 New Zealand dollars (about $360 US). I just wanted one Lisa to add to my collection of classic computers. Lisas are rare in New Zealand. Working ones sell for over $1000 NZ dollars (if indeed you ever see them for sale). The guy selling these lived close, so I could pick them up thereby negating shipping costs. Although my skills with electronics is limited, I figured I could get at least ONE working Lisa out of this lot. My hope it would be the Lisa 2/10 with the widget. As it was I managed two of them, although not without a lot of time and some cost (like new pads for the keyboards and an X/Profile emulator replacement for the Widget). However, I'm happy with the outcome and felt it was money and time well spent. I've documented the adventure under the two links below. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-01-11-salvaging-a-lisa2.htm http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-03-05-rejuvenating-a-lisa2-10.htm The Lisa is easy to take apart and work on. Also I've found people very generous with their advice both on this forum and the Goggle Lisa List forum. The community helped a lot. Both the Lisa 2s (not the Lisa 2/10) had minor battery damage. Luckily not enough to damage the I/O board though. They still seem to work even though corroded bits and pieces could be seen. However, one of the motherboards (backplane) also has battery damage (the acid leaked from the battery on the I/O board above it) and this seems to have destroyed some tracks. At the moment this motherboard is sitting in the spare-parts Lisa. I may try to repair this at one stage by jumpering the broken tracks under the board. >From what people have told me, vinegar is useful for cleaning up acid damaged areas, then followed by rinsing with distilled water (and careful and complete drying of course). I hope these comments help. I've found the Lisas fun machines to work on, and doing so has given me a good appreciation of their innovative design (for the time). Good luck! Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 9:02 AM Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration > Hi, > > I have two Lisa 2s in my possession that both exhibit serious corrision > from battery leakage. One is simply bad, the other is about the worst > such situation I've ever laid eyes on. > > I was able to remove the battery packs to halt the degradation, but before > I make a bad situation worse I thought I'd ask for some advice on how to > proceed. > > I'm also trying to work out what the units might be worth. The deal with > the seller is that I'm free to evaluate their condition and attempt to get > one working unit out of the two. Assuming a nominally functional Lisa 2 > with functional 10MB ProFile and fair cosmetic condition, what do folks > think is a fair price for that unit (the owner wants whatever is left > back, functioning or not)? > > Prices on eBay are really all over the map, so that's not of much help. > > Steve > > > -- > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Apr 2 17:33:30 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:33:30 +1200 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! References: Message-ID: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> I thought I was doing well with my two and a half Lisas. Check out this stash! This photo was posted on the Goggle Lisa List group. http://www.flickr.com/photos/48978576 at N08/5581196468/ Terry From mwichary at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 17:37:58 2011 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 15:37:58 -0700 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> References: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: I apologize for what might be a really stupid question, but how come some of the screens seem much darker than the others? On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 3:33 PM, terry stewart wrote: > I thought I was doing well with my two and a half Lisas. Check out this > stash! This photo was posted on the Goggle Lisa List group. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/48978576 at N08/5581196468/ > > Terry > > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 2 18:48:10 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 15:48:10 -0800 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: References: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <842c0ca5a404b7fb2ca01a8180a5dd09@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 2, at 2:37 PM, Marcin Wichary wrote: > I apologize for what might be a really stupid question, but how come > some of > the screens seem much darker than the others? Presumably some of them have anti-glare screens and some of them don't. I remember when those open-weave-fabric-type anti-glare screens became available in the mid-80s. There were after-market ones available, we had them installed on our Ann-Arbor Ambassador terminals. I don't know whether they were an original or after-market feature for the Lisas. > On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 3:33 PM, terry stewart > wrote: > >> I thought I was doing well with my two and a half Lisas. Check out >> this >> stash! This photo was posted on the Goggle Lisa List group. >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/48978576 at N08/5581196468/ >> >> Terry >> >> >> > From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Apr 2 18:25:41 2011 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 00:25:41 +0100 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: References: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4D97B075.10305@mac.com> On 04/02/2011 23:37, Marcin Wichary wrote: > I apologize for what might be a really stupid question, but how come some of > the screens seem much darker than the others? > > On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 3:33 PM, terry stewartwrote: There is a usually a mesh screen in front of the CRT, some of his have them, some dont. So why does he store the Macintoshes upside down, is it to stop the capacitors leaking? Roger From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 21:07:27 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 22:07:27 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <4D979D20.7040708@neurotica.com> References: <4D96433A.8040409@neurotica.com> <4D970FF5.13104.7F381D@cclist.sydex.com> <4D977615.6000709@neurotica.com> <4D979D20.7040708@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 6:03 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/2/11 5:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> And now you can too... ?http://www.tinaja.com/ebooks/RTLcb.pdf > > ?Ethan, you insult me. ?I have a paper copy. ;) So do I (thanks to a fellow-list-member). It took me long enough to acquire (without paying collector prices) that I thought I'd share the URL for those that _don't_ have it on paper. >> (yes... Don Lancaster is ePublishing several of his own titles for free). > > ?Really! ?Don Lancaster rocks. ?Almost as much as Al. :-D Indeed. -ethan From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Apr 2 23:33:08 2011 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 00:33:08 -0400 Subject: Moldy data tape help Message-ID: I just got a load of Wang equipment (thanks Jason) and one of the Data tapes has mold on it. Check it out at: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qEkwl1uWDIjNywOZMQXlSA?feat=directlink Does anyone have any thoughts about cleaning this before trying to use it. Thanks Rob Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 07:44:36 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 08:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, terry stewart wrote: > Hi Steve, > > I've just finished restoring a couple of Lisas. My situation was a little > similar to yours. I bought three untested units. There were two Lisa 2's > (minus the profiles) and one was a Lisa 2/10. I knew that the Lisa 2/10 had > a fault in the I/O board and one of the Lisa 2s had a memory issue. The > stack came with an extra power pack and one of the Lisas was missing a video > card. That's all I knew. The lot cost $500 New Zealand dollars (about $360 > US). That's a steal. The owner of these machines turned down an offer of $500 US for one unit, so we agreed to defer bargaining until such time as the functionality is better known. > As it was I managed two of them, although not without a lot of time and some > cost (like new pads for the keyboards and an X/Profile emulator replacement > for the Widget). However, I'm happy with the outcome and felt it was money > and time well spent. I've documented the adventure under the two links > below. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-01-11-salvaging-a-lisa2.htm > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-03-05-rejuvenating-a-lisa2-10.htm I'll have a look. > The Lisa is easy to take apart and work on. Also I've found people very > generous with their advice both on this forum and the Goggle Lisa List forum. > The community helped a lot. Google Lisa list? I'll have to check that out. Wasn't aware of it. > Both the Lisa 2s (not the Lisa 2/10) had minor battery damage. Luckily not > enough to damage the I/O board though. They still seem to work even though > corroded bits and pieces could be seen. However, one of the motherboards > (backplane) also has battery damage (the acid leaked from the battery on the > I/O board above it) and this seems to have destroyed some tracks. At the > moment this motherboard is sitting in the spare-parts Lisa. I may try to > repair this at one stage by jumpering the broken tracks under the board. The amount of corrosion on these units is just stunning. There's "crust" growing on almost every metal surface surrounding "ground zero" (battery mount point). Some of the screws holding the motherboard to the bottom pan were so grunged up that I had to slice a slot in the head with a Dremel grinder and use penetrating oil to get them out. The rear panel RFI shield of one unit has a "bloom" of rust and crust about five inches in diameter centered on the battery. Even the card-edge connector in the rear of the CRT cage is full of crud, and that's over 6" away! Unlike my Amiga 4000 (a story in its own right), Apple appears to have used very high-quality and thick solder resist on the boards. So far (knock wood) I have not found any dissolved traces - which is just short of incredible given the scope of the disaster. My immediate concern is how to safely remove the green crust from resistor leads, vias and, most importantly, the various bus card-edge connectors. What have folks used to clean the bus connectors without bending contacts? Caig contact cleaner was laughed off - didn't even touch the green stuff. >> From what people have told me, vinegar is useful for cleaning up acid > damaged areas, then followed by rinsing with distilled water (and careful and > complete drying of course). I'll try that later today. > I hope these comments help. I've found the Lisas fun machines to work on, > and doing so has given me a good appreciation of their innovative design (for > the time). One point I'm curious about: Has anyone figured out how to initialize a ProFile for use with a Lisa? The documentation implies that a special procedure is needed to low-level format the unit and write boot blocks. I am setup for Apple /// based low-level format (special Z8 piggyback CPU and firmware), but am unclear as to whether this is the same as what the Lisa expects. No clue how to write boot blocks, though. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 07:52:42 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 08:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> References: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, terry stewart wrote: > I thought I was doing well with my two and a half Lisas. Check out this > stash! This photo was posted on the Goggle Lisa List group. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/48978576 at N08/5581196468/ Is he a collector / restorer sort of person or a "black hole"? I've tripped over a number of folks with large quantities of classic gear who seem to playing the "..he who dies with the most units, wins" game. Drives me crazy when someone who doesn't touch the equipment, doesn't use it or display it (in fact, may not even know where it is), has 6-10 of something you have been desperately looking for and refuses to part with one for any amount of remuneration. Always struck me as sort of a power trip. Steve -- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 08:21:04 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 06:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <273257.87519.qm@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > One point I'm curious about:? Has anyone figured out > how to initialize a ProFile for use with a Lisa?? The > documentation implies that a special procedure is needed to > low-level format the unit and write boot blocks. > > I am setup for Apple /// based low-level format (special Z8 > piggyback CPU and firmware), but am unclear as to whether > this is the same as what the Lisa expects.? No clue how > to write boot blocks, though. The Lisa's Office System can high level format the ProFile for Lisa use (including boot blocks) when you install the OS - as can MacWorks. The low level formatting, however, can only be done with the aforementioned Apple /// setup. -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 08:35:28 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 06:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <43783.7293.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I have two Lisa 2s in my possession that both exhibit > serious corrision from battery leakage.? One is simply > bad, the other is about the worst such situation I've ever > laid eyes on. > > I was able to remove the battery packs to halt the > degradation, but before I make a bad situation worse I > thought I'd ask for some advice on how to proceed. As I'm sure others have told you (haven't read the whole thread) the stuff to use is vinegar. The "acid" the battery leaks is really more of a base/alkali, so a mild acid like vinegar will neutralize it. I usually use an old toothbrush and scrub with the vinegar to get rid of the blue/green corrosion crud. Once it looks pretty good, give it a good rinse in alcohol to clear away any flakes of crud and vinegar. I have, on occasion, even used a dishwasher for final rinse, if the board is really bad. (stupid pinball machine MPU board design...). If you used water to rinse, you can air dry, or dry in the oven - just set it as low as it will go, usually 150 degrees, and let it bake for a half hour or so - that's usually enough to drive away any remaining water. > I'm also trying to work out what the units might be > worth.? The deal with the seller is that I'm free to > evaluate their condition and attempt to get one working unit > out of the two.? Assuming a nominally functional Lisa 2 > with functional 10MB ProFile and fair cosmetic condition, > what do folks think is a fair price for that unit (the owner > wants whatever is left back, functioning or not)? Depends - but a Lisa, in good (non-working) condition seems to go for around $400/500, and working ones even more - closer to $600/$700, and with a working hard drive? I don't know. Usually the ones on eBay are in as-found condition. But, a broken one with battery damage... probably closer to $250/$300. Again, observation - I am not an expert. Another important question - do you have the keyboards? Are they working? The Lisa uses the capacitive foam disc keyboards, and most of them are now non-working due to the foam rotting. I've been able to fix this sort of keyboard by making a sandwich of the plastic/foam/mylar materials, and using a little punch (a machinist friend made it for me) to punch out replacement discs. It's very tedious. A minor point would be the mice. The Lisa uses the same mouse (electrically) that the Macintosh 128/512/Plus used - and this was what shipped with the Lisa 2/10. But the Lisa 2/5 (with the battery pack and the external ProFile port) shipped with a different looking mouse, with a thin button and sharper corners. The difference is purely cosmetic, but some collectors are picky. :D -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 08:54:16 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 06:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: <842c0ca5a404b7fb2ca01a8180a5dd09@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <422814.11975.qm@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I apologize for what might be a really stupid > question, but how come some of > > the screens seem much darker than the others? > > Presumably some of them have anti-glare screens and some of > them don't. > > I remember when those open-weave-fabric-type anti-glare > screens became available in the mid-80s. There were > after-market ones available, we had them installed on our > Ann-Arbor Ambassador terminals. > > I don't know whether they were an original or after-market > feature for the Lisas. They're original. The front panel even has two little metal clips for holding the anti-glare screen. It just pops in and out, so it's pretty common to see Lisas without them. A nice feature though, because on the Monitor ///, the anti-glare filter is mounted inside the monitor, and therefore is not easy to clean. With the Lisa, you can just pop the front panel off, clean the tube, blow the dust out of the glare filter, and pop it back on. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 11:55:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:55:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 2, 11 05:02:42 pm Message-ID: > I was able to remove the battery packs to halt the degradation, but before > I make a bad situation worse I thought I'd ask for some advice on how to > proceed. The electrolyte in such batteries is alkaline, you need a chemically weak acid to neutralise it and hopefulyl clean things up a bit. Some people use white vinegar, I prefer a solution of citric acid (it smells better for one thing :-)). After using this, wash the area with distilled water and then clean up with propan-2-ol This will clean up the battery residue, but of course it won't undo any corrosion damage to the PCB tracks. I think what you have to do there is check all the connecitons in the affect area against the schematics, repair any broken tracksby sodering wires in place of them, and then test the machine, Debug the repaing faults, remembering that broken connections are very likely. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 12:11:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 18:11:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 3, 11 08:52:42 am Message-ID: > Is he a collector / restorer sort of person or a "black hole"? I've > tripped over a number of folks with large quantities of classic gear who > seem to playing the "..he who dies with the most units, wins" game. > Drives me crazy when someone who doesn't touch the equipment, doesn't use > it or display it (in fact, may not even know where it is), has 6-10 of I amy be guilty of this sort of behaviour in that I have what, by some standards, is a ridiculous number of classic computers. On the other hand: I dont; accumulte large numbers of identical machines (yes, I ahve some 'duplicates', but of common stuff). I may have what appear to be similar machines (for example an HP9836A monochrome machine and an identical-looking HP9836CU colour one), but they are different enough interneally for both to be of interest to me. I do like to use my classic devices (not just computers), and as a result I try to get them all working. I can';t claim all my classics just 'switch on' -- there are some I've not got round to working on yet. But I do want to be able to use them. As a result, I figure out how to fix things, and will share this information with anyone who asks. > something you have been desperately looking for and refuses to part with > one for any amount of remuneration. Always struck me as sort of a power > trip. Without wanting to start another flame war, I have difficulty understnading people who collect these machines 'as an ivenstment' and never try to get them working, never use them, in case it damages their value :-(. I would much rather enjoy them while I can. -tony From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 12:38:22 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <43783.7293.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <43783.7293.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Another important question - do you have the keyboards? Are they > working? The Lisa uses the capacitive foam disc keyboards, and most of > them are now non-working due to the foam rotting. I've been able to fix > this sort of keyboard by making a sandwich of the plastic/foam/mylar > materials, and using a little punch (a machinist friend made it for me) > to punch out replacement discs. It's very tedious. I saw some information on the web about that, but it's hard to believe any of the branded items (e.g. punches) will still be available from the sources cited. Should be an interesting battle! I'm actually surprised that no enterprising individual has offered sets of foom pads as a product. I cleaned things up enough to get the self-test and startup to run. The DB-9F mouse connector is effectively destroyed from the battery electrolyte. If I wiggle the connector the mouse is operational, though. A good sign. Not looking forward to pulling the old DB9 right-angle connector from the motherboard... This one is too far gone for cleaning and will definitely need to be replaced. At the end of the internal self-test (everything passes!) it complains that the keyboard is not plugged in. I get this result with both keyboards. Is that the symptom of dead foam disks? Somehow I thought it would still know a keyboard was out there, so perhaps this is something else altogether. There was so much corrosion on the edge connector at the rear of the CRT cage that it could simply be bad contacts at that point. Will have to start checking continuity. > A minor point would be the mice. The Lisa uses the same mouse > (electrically) that the Macintosh 128/512/Plus used - and this was what > shipped with the Lisa 2/10. But the Lisa 2/5 (with the battery pack and > the external ProFile port) shipped with a different looking mouse, with > a thin button and sharper corners. The difference is purely cosmetic, > but some collectors are picky. :D I'm almost positive these are the original mice. The one ProFile drive that comes ready tries VERY hard to boot, but eventually fails with an error 10707. This is after a considerable amount of access, so something is almost alive there! -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 12:40:16 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> I was able to remove the battery packs to halt the degradation, but before >> I make a bad situation worse I thought I'd ask for some advice on how to >> proceed. > > The electrolyte in such batteries is alkaline, you need a chemically weak > acid to neutralise it and hopefulyl clean things up a bit. Some people > use white vinegar, I prefer a solution of citric acid (it smells better > for one thing :-)). After using this, wash the area with distilled water > and then clean up with propan-2-ol That seems to be the concensus. Have a gallon of vinegar waiting... > This will clean up the battery residue, but of course it won't undo any > corrosion damage to the PCB tracks. I think what you have to do there is > check all the connecitons in the affect area against the schematics, > repair any broken tracksby sodering wires in place of them, and then test > the machine, Debug the repaing faults, remembering that broken > connections are very likely. Incredibly enough (given the scope of the leakage) there does not appear to be any actual trace damage. Apple certainly did not skimp on either the weight of the copper cladding nor the resist screening. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 12:43:08 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Is he a collector / restorer sort of person or a "black hole"? I've >> tripped over a number of folks with large quantities of classic gear who >> seem to playing the "..he who dies with the most units, wins" game. >> Drives me crazy when someone who doesn't touch the equipment, doesn't use >> it or display it (in fact, may not even know where it is), has 6-10 of > > I amy be guilty of this sort of behaviour in that I have what, by some > standards, is a ridiculous number of classic computers. On the other > hand: > > I dont; accumulte large numbers of identical machines (yes, I ahve some > 'duplicates', but of common stuff). I may have what appear to be similar > machines (for example an HP9836A monochrome machine and an > identical-looking HP9836CU colour one), but they are different enough > interneally for both to be of interest to me. > > I do like to use my classic devices (not just computers), and as a > result I try to get them all working. I can';t claim all my classics just > 'switch on' -- there are some I've not got round to working on yet. But I > do want to be able to use them. As a result, I figure out how to fix > things, and will share this information with anyone who asks. Then you are cetainly not exhibiting the "..I have them all and you don't" syndrome. Sufferers of this malady never even open the boxes up (much less turn them on or fix them). But, they make sure you know that they have all this stuff - somewhere... If they could only find it. >> something you have been desperately looking for and refuses to part with >> one for any amount of remuneration. Always struck me as sort of a power >> trip. > > Without wanting to start another flame war, I have difficulty > understnading people who collect these machines 'as an ivenstment' and > never try to get them working, never use them, in case it damages their > value :-(. I would much rather enjoy them while I can. Amen. -- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 12:44:18 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 14:44:18 -0300 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration References: <43783.7293.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5487EAC406EE4C778E122786F17F3201@portajara> > I cleaned things up enough to get the self-test and startup to run. The > DB-9F mouse connector is effectively destroyed from the battery > electrolyte. If I wiggle the connector the mouse is operational, though. > A good sign. Not looking forward to pulling the old DB9 right-angle > connector from the motherboard... This one is too far gone for cleaning > and will definitely need to be replaced. Steven, when I get some device with this level of trouble, I usually disassemble EVERYTHING in the affected area, clean it up with grit pad until I can see only cooper and start to retin the traces with common solder, and repair broken traces with very thin wire-up wire. Replace everything with NEW parts. Usually it works at first and does not break up after. A throught clean-up is primordial for having no problems on the future. I'm sorry I'm so far away (I live in Brazil). I'd love to help you on this matter. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 12:51:09 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <951107.72533.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I cleaned things up enough to get the self-test and startup > to run.? The DB-9F mouse connector is effectively > destroyed from the battery electrolyte.? If I wiggle > the connector the mouse is operational, though. A good > sign.? Not looking forward to pulling the old DB9 > right-angle connector from the motherboard...? This one > is too far gone for cleaning and will definitely need to be > replaced. Fortunately, right angle DB9 plugs are readily available. But yeah, desoldering that is going to be fun :D > At the end of the internal self-test (everything passes!) > it complains that the keyboard is not plugged in.? I > get this result with both keyboards.? Is that the > symptom of dead foam disks?? Somehow I thought it would > still know a keyboard was out there, so perhaps this is > something else altogether.? There was so much corrosion > on the edge connector at the rear of the CRT cage that it > could simply be bad contacts at that point. Will have to > start checking continuity. It could very well be corrosion/tarnish on the edge connector, or at the 1/4" phono jack on the front of the computer. But, I'm actually thinking it might be the foam discs in the keyboard. You will also get that error if you hold down any of the keys while turning on the computer. Therefore, if those little mylar discs have fallen off the foam, and are laying on the circuit board contacts, you could have the same effect. Try holding the keyboard upside down and shaking it, then turning on the computer with the keyboard upside down (and no keys pressed). > The one ProFile drive that comes ready tries VERY hard to > boot, but eventually fails with an error 10707.? This > is after a considerable amount of access, so something is > almost alive there! That means "system software damaged". The "fix" is to boot from Lisa Office disk 1, and do a repair. Of course, you'll need to disassemble and clean your floppy drive, since it's sure to be gummed up and frozen with grease. The metal eject mechanism comes off easily (four screws from underneath, one jesus clip on the eject motor), so you can easily WD40 it to dissolve the old grease. If you need software, it's readily available in the form of DiskCopy images. Remember - use DiskCopy 4.2, not 6.3. Any older Macintosh with a built in floppy drive can write Lisa disks, although a Mac running System 7.5 or older is usually preferred. The use of an 800k or 400k drive to write the disks is not required - the Macintosh 1.4mb drives work fine too. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Sun Apr 3 13:31:32 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 12:31:32 -0600 Subject: Moldy data tape help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Robert Borsuk writes: > I just got a load of Wang equipment (thanks Jason) and one of the Data tapes has mold on it. > Check it out at: > > https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qEkwl1uWDIjNywOZMQXlSA?feat=directlink > > Does anyone have any thoughts about cleaning this before trying to use it. I would clean them the same way that people have cleaned dirty/moldy floppies. IIRC, water and a dilute dish soap solution were the consensus, but I'd check the list archives for messages relating to cleaning floppies. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sun Apr 3 13:36:38 2011 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 14:36:38 -0400 Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions Message-ID: <4D98BE36.7070604@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi all, I have a 3100 model 80 with a failing disk drive. The two drives in it now are Seagate ST15150N (I believe). I have a couple of questions: Are there NEW drives out there that will work with this VAX? What do I need to do to make a drive format/work? I installed the drives probably over ten years ago and I just don't remember if I had to format them special or on another box or what. I don't have the manuals any more, so I'm stuck. Thanks for any advice you folks have... Joe Heck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 13:39:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 19:39:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 3, 11 01:38:22 pm Message-ID: > I saw some information on the web about that, but it's hard to believe any > of the branded items (e.g. punches) will still be available from the > sources cited. Should be an interesting battle! I'm actually surprised > that no enterprising individual has offered sets of foom pads as a > product. Form what I remembner (never having seen a Lisa, alas), this is a normal Keytronics capacitive keyboard. I thought that somebody did sell replacement disk kits for them on Ebay (possibly advertised as being for some other machine, Sol-20 ??) > > I cleaned things up enough to get the self-test and startup to run. The > DB-9F mouse connector is effectively destroyed from the battery Strictly that's a DE9F connector. The second letter incidates the shell size. > electrolyte. If I wiggle the connector the mouse is operational, though. > A good sign. Not looking forward to pulling the old DB9 right-angle > connector from the motherboard... This one is too far gone for cleaning > and will definitely need to be replaced. I've not seen the old one, but if you can cut off the pins above the PCB, do so. You can then remove the body of the connector and remove the pins one a ta time (the easiest way to do this is to melt the solder on the bottom of the PCB and yank the pins out form the top, then clear the holes by meltign the solder with an iron on one side of the PCB and suckign the solderout from the other). If you can't cut the pins off, you will have to deoslder it in the usual way. A good solder sucker helps, as does a new tip for said succker (They splay out with use, the fine hole in a new tip is a major advantage). I find it helpts ot melt a little new solder onto each connection and then sukc the whole lot off. Wen you've done all the pins, wiggle them around in the holes with a screwdrier or pliers and pull the part out. > > At the end of the internal self-test (everything passes!) it complains > that the keyboard is not plugged in. I get this result with both > keyboards. Is that the symptom of dead foam disks? Somehow I thought it > would still know a keyboard was out there, so perhaps this is something Normally dead foam disks mean that some or all of the keys don't work, the keyboard should be dectededmy the machine. I think you have another fault. >From waht Iv'e read, the keybaord has a 3 contact connector (1/4" jack plug?), the connectiuons being a power line, gorund, and a bidirectional serial data line. I would open up the keyboard and check it's getting power, I'd also take the PCB off the key frame (lots of little screws) and try it again. If it fails then, I would see if the microcontroller in the keybaord is running, what the data line is doing, etc. > else altogether. There was so much corrosion on the edge connector at the > rear of the CRT cage that it could simply be bad contacts at that point. > Will have to start checking continuity. I would always clean such connecotrs, things do not work with bad connections :-) and it's worth eliminating the 'sillies' first. I suspect a dip in citric acid solution, followed by water and then propan-2-ol would help a lot here. If it;s the female mart of the connecotor (rather than the PCB edge fingers it goes onto) that is corroded, I would consider replacing it. Most edge connectors are still avaialble. It's tedious trandfering wires from the old to the new onw (I've done it...) but ti doesn't take that long. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 13:45:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 19:45:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 3, 11 01:43:08 pm Message-ID: > Then you are cetainly not exhibiting the "..I have them all and you don't" Well, I only very rarely sell anything, so in a sense once I've got it, you don't :-) > syndrome. Sufferers of this malady never even open the boxes up (much > less turn them on or fix them). But, they make sure you know that they Ah, then I _certianly_ don't suffer from that. I am always inside some machine or other. I've even dismanteld soem machins before I've even got them home (I got my HP9180 at an HPCC meeting and dismantled it at the meeting, I even started figuring out what was going on on some of the PCBs). Maybe I take 'fixing things' to ridiculour levels sometimes. Not classic-computer related, but I don't think many people would dismantly a Western Electric telephone dial, inclduing the riveted and staked parts and then machine new parts for it. Not when you can buy a replacement for a few 10s of dollars. But that's what I've been doing for the last couple of afternoons. It's probably as pointless as mot hobbies, but I enjoy it and it appears to harm nobody. > have all this stuff - somewhere... If they could only find it. Now that I can relate to, as can many others here... More often, though, it's small parts I can't find, as it 'I know I've got a spare type cylinder for an ASR33 somewhere, but where the heck did I put it' -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Apr 3 14:18:52 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 07:18:52 +1200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration References: <951107.72533.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <934EF5567BF543AC8CA6C50DB0103781@massey.ac.nz> Re: the Keyboard. All three of my Lisa Keyboards had degraded foam pads so much so that between the three of them only one key worked! However, the computer still registered a keyboard as being present. Alll three keyboards are working now. I got my replacement pads off Erik Klein, who is a member of this forum. He might have some more left. Given the battery damage you describe, if you have got the stage where the Profile is seeking then things are going well! (-: Jammed/gummed up floppy disks are also a common, although it's not the only fault these drives can have as evidenced by my long diagnostic conversation with Tony on this mailing list. Terry > At the end of the internal self-test (everything passes!) > it complains that the keyboard is not plugged in. I > get this result with both keyboards. Is that the > symptom of dead foam disks? Somehow I thought it would > still know a keyboard was out there, so perhaps this is > something else altogether. There was so much corrosion > on the edge connector at the rear of the CRT cage that it > could simply be bad contacts at that point. Will have to > start checking continuity. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 14:26:58 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 15:26:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <951107.72533.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <951107.72533.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> I cleaned things up enough to get the self-test and startup >> to run.? The DB-9F mouse connector is effectively >> destroyed from the battery electrolyte.? If I wiggle >> the connector the mouse is operational, though. A good >> sign.? Not looking forward to pulling the old DB9 >> right-angle connector from the motherboard...? This one >> is too far gone for cleaning and will definitely need to be >> replaced. > > Fortunately, right angle DB9 plugs are readily available. But yeah, > desoldering that is going to be fun :D This is probably a good point to ask: Does anyone recommend using a hot-air reflow tool to desolder through-hole components like the DB9? My experiences with desoldering guns have been universally poor. They seem to make a mess of the PCB (lifted / torn traces) and seldom are able to clear the holes sufficiently. The hope is that positive hot-air flow would reduce the localized thermal shock while keeping all 9 pins above the melt point while I pull it. >> At the end of the internal self-test (everything passes!) >> it complains that the keyboard is not plugged in.? I >> get this result with both keyboards.? Is that the >> symptom of dead foam disks?? Somehow I thought it would >> still know a keyboard was out there, so perhaps this is >> something else altogether.? There was so much corrosion >> on the edge connector at the rear of the CRT cage that it >> could simply be bad contacts at that point. Will have to >> start checking continuity. > > It could very well be corrosion/tarnish on the edge connector, or at the > 1/4" phono jack on the front of the computer. But, I'm actually thinking > it might be the foam discs in the keyboard. You will also get that error > if you hold down any of the keys while turning on the computer. > Therefore, if those little mylar discs have fallen off the foam, and are > laying on the circuit board contacts, you could have the same effect. > Try holding the keyboard upside down and shaking it, then turning on the > computer with the keyboard upside down (and no keys pressed). Good point. I'll try that. >> The one ProFile drive that comes ready tries VERY hard to >> boot, but eventually fails with an error 10707.? This >> is after a considerable amount of access, so something is >> almost alive there! > > That means "system software damaged". The "fix" is to boot from Lisa > Office disk 1, and do a repair. Of course, you'll need to disassemble > and clean your floppy drive, since it's sure to be gummed up and frozen > with grease. The metal eject mechanism comes off easily (four screws > from underneath, one jesus clip on the eject motor), so you can easily > WD40 it to dissolve the old grease. Yup. Just about to start this exercise. The original grease has turned into gunk. > If you need software, it's readily available in the form of DiskCopy > images. Remember - use DiskCopy 4.2, not 6.3. Any older Macintosh with a > built in floppy drive can write Lisa disks, although a Mac running > System 7.5 or older is usually preferred. The use of an 800k or 400k > drive to write the disks is not required - the Macintosh 1.4mb drives > work fine too. Already grabbed it - thanks! Steve -- From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Apr 3 14:36:00 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 15:36:00 -0400 Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions Message-ID: Joe writes: > I have a 3100 model 80 with a failing disk drive. The two drives in it > now are Seagate ST15150N (I believe). I have a couple of questions: > Are there NEW drives out there that will work with this VAX? > What do I need to do to make a drive format/work? ST15150N are excellent drives and were a great choice for ten years ago when they started showing up widely in surplus. I have such a long and deep trust in them, that I might recommend that you just find a few more :-) Today if insisting on a new drive you'd probably get a 68 pin SCSI drive and a 68-to-50 adapter cable. Example 68 pin SCSI drives still being manufactured recently are Seagate Cheetahs 73 gig/ 147 gig. Similarly you could get an 80 pin SCA drive and an adapter to take you down to 50 pin. There's a lot of surplus SCSI drives out there newer than the ST15150N too. Example adapter source: http://www.pc-pitstop.com/scsi_adapters/int_scsi_adapters.asp > I installed the drives probably over ten years ago and I just don't > remember if I had to format them special or on another box or what. I > don't have the manuals any more, so I'm stuck. Nothing special. Just stick it in, INIT or BACKUP to fill it up. Older 3100's (like model 30) have some limitations on boot disks requiring some tricks to use drives bigger than 1 gbyte but the model 80 is clear sailing. Tim. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 14:38:34 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 15:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> I saw some information on the web about that, but it's hard to believe any >> of the branded items (e.g. punches) will still be available from the >> sources cited. Should be an interesting battle! I'm actually surprised >> that no enterprising individual has offered sets of foom pads as a >> product. > > Form what I remembner (never having seen a Lisa, alas), this is a normal > Keytronics capacitive keyboard. I thought that somebody did sell > replacement disk kits for them on Ebay (possibly advertised as being for > some other machine, Sol-20 ??) I sort of thought I'd seen them available. Will re-engage my Google-foo and try again. >> electrolyte. If I wiggle the connector the mouse is operational, though. >> A good sign. Not looking forward to pulling the old DB9 right-angle >> connector from the motherboard... This one is too far gone for cleaning >> and will definitely need to be replaced. > > I've not seen the old one, but if you can cut off the pins above the PCB, > do so. You can then remove the body of the connector and remove the pins > one a ta time (the easiest way to do this is to melt the solder on the > bottom of the PCB and yank the pins out form the top, then clear the > holes by meltign the solder with an iron on one side of the PCB and > suckign the solderout from the other). > > If you can't cut the pins off, you will have to deoslder it in the usual > way. A good solder sucker helps, as does a new tip for said succker (They > splay out with use, the fine hole in a new tip is a major advantage). I > find it helpts ot melt a little new solder onto each connection and then > sukc the whole lot off. Wen you've done all the pins, wiggle them around > in the holes with a screwdrier or pliers and pull the part out. The only way to cut the pins off above is to saw the body off with a rotary cutter in the Dremel tool. Probably still safer than trying to desolder the entire thing intact. >> At the end of the internal self-test (everything passes!) it complains >> that the keyboard is not plugged in. I get this result with both >> keyboards. Is that the symptom of dead foam disks? Somehow I thought it >> would still know a keyboard was out there, so perhaps this is something > > Normally dead foam disks mean that some or all of the keys don't work, > the keyboard should be dectededmy the machine. I think you have another > fault. > >> From waht Iv'e read, the keybaord has a 3 contact connector (1/4" jack > plug?), the connectiuons being a power line, gorund, and a bidirectional > serial data line. I would open up the keyboard and check it's getting > power, I'd also take the PCB off the key frame (lots of little screws) > and try it again. If it fails then, I would see if the microcontroller in > the keybaord is running, what the data line is doing, etc. Excellent point. With the key matrix disconnected it won't think anything is held down. >> else altogether. There was so much corrosion on the edge connector at the >> rear of the CRT cage that it could simply be bad contacts at that point. >> Will have to start checking continuity. > > I would always clean such connecotrs, things do not work with bad > connections :-) and it's worth eliminating the 'sillies' first. I suspect > a dip in citric acid solution, followed by water and then propan-2-ol > would help a lot here. The card edges were easy enough to clean. The female edge connectors not so much. My first pass was to use a brass rotary brush in the Dremel at low speed. The brush is thin enough to slip down into the body and soft enough that a light touch won't remove the plating. That took care of a lot of the grunge. Next, I fold a piece of thin cardboard, soak it in contact cleaner and run it up and down over the entire length. The memory card connectors exhibited some "bowing" out in the middle that was initially preventing connectivity. By carefully working a fine jeweler's screwdriver behind the pins and bending them out, it started cooperating. I'm aware that's a "Hail Mary" play that probably limits their useful life, but it beats replacing them outright. My experience is that no amount of soaking in anything I've been able to get my hands on will ever passively remove the green stuff. Is your experience different? Certainly the vinegar neutralizes the pH, but I've never actually seen it get the fuzz off everything - particularly not from gold contacts. > If it;s the female mart of the connecotor (rather than the PCB edge > fingers it goes onto) that is corroded, I would consider replacing it. > Most edge connectors are still avaialble. It's tedious trandfering wires > from the old to the new onw (I've done it...) but ti doesn't take that long. That's a last resort. Odds of getting two huge and two mid-sized Amphenol bus connectors off the motherboard without destroying it are almost nil. Certainly my luck on that type of operation is about 0%. Steve -- From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Apr 3 14:44:24 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 15:44:24 -0400 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! Message-ID: Original picture looks like a miniature version of my garage back in the early 90's. Walls lined with VT100's and variants stacked up high... less than fifty of them in all but still a lot for one guy :-) >> Is he a collector / restorer sort of person or a "black hole"? I've >> tripped over a number of folks with large quantities of classic gear who >> seem to playing the "..he who dies with the most units, wins" game. >> Drives me crazy when someone who doesn't touch the equipment, doesn't use >> it or display it (in fact, may not even know where it is), has 6-10 of The reasoning behind my garage of VT100's was mostly related to making working units from broken units taken in during hauls. I put no energy doing board-level fixes but swapped major subassemblies with wild abandon. Lots of Southern California hobbyists ended up with several of my fixed VT100's :-). I can see it, in some cases, evolving from "having some spares" to "having so many spares" to "not needing any spares because I fix everything at the board level" but I never got there! Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 14:43:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 20:43:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 3, 11 03:26:58 pm Message-ID: > > Fortunately, right angle DB9 plugs are readily available. But yeah,=20 > > desoldering that is going to be fun :D > > This is probably a good point to ask: Does anyone recommend using a=20 > hot-air reflow tool to desolder through-hole components like the DB9? My=20 > experiences with desoldering guns have been universally poor. They seem=20 > to make a mess of the PCB (lifted / torn traces) and seldom are able to=20 > clear the holes sufficiently. The hope is that positive hot-air flow=20 > would reduce the localized thermal shock while keeping all 9 pins above=20 > the melt point while I pull it. I've had great success using a nromal handheld solder sucker to remove parts from PCBs without damaging either the part or the PCB. it's not uncommon for me to desolder a ROM from a working machine in order to dump it out, and then solder it back in place (actually, I'd problaby put a socket in, but anyray). I wouild recommend a temperature controlelr soldering iron a little hotter than normal (I use a #8 tip in my Weller TCP). A fine tip too. I also find that dismantling the solder sucker and putting a smear of vaseline (petroleum jelly) on the washer helps a lot. As I mentioend in an earlier posting, a new, find nozzle on the sodler sucker helps a lot. When uou;ve remvoed the solder, try to wingle the pins ro break any remaining bond before pulling the part out. This is easy to do on some components, impossible on others. Don't force anything. Alas only experience will tell you how hard you cna pull the compoonent without riskingdamage to the PCB. You may find you can cut up the old DE9F connecotr to remove the pins one at a time. Maybe with a cut-off disk in a Dremel or simuilar. > > 1/4" phono jack on the front of the computer. But, I'm actually thinkin= > g=20 > > it might be the foam discs in the keyboard. You will also get that erro= > r=20 > > if you hold down any of the keys while turning on the computer.=20 > > Therefore, if those little mylar discs have fallen off the foam, and ar= > e=20 > > laying on the circuit board contacts, you could have the same effect.=20 Now that I wasn't sure of... I would recomend taking the keyboard apart anyway and inspecting these disks. You can then see if any are likely to be 'active'. > > That means "system software damaged". The "fix" is to boot from Lisa=20 > > Office disk 1, and do a repair. Of course, you'll need to disassemble=20 > > and clean your floppy drive, since it's sure to be gummed up and frozen= > =20 > > with grease. The metal eject mechanism comes off easily (four screws=20 > > from underneath, one jesus clip on the eject motor), so you can easily=20 > > WD40 it to dissolve the old grease. I wouldn't put 'Wanton Destruction 40' anywhere near the floppy drive (or any other aprt of a classic computer). The stuff we get in the UK contains some quite long-chain waxy hydrocarbons whcih will gum things up after a short while. I've never worked on a Lisa drive, but I've worked on plenty of the Sony full-heigfht 3.5" drives, singel and double head, in HP units. They are similar mechancially to the Lisa drive. Some of the odler eject mechansims will come totally apart (the levers are held on with E-circlips), which makes cleaning a lot easier. The later ones are riveted, so you can just rmeove the springs, soak the assmebly in solvent, then work the parts back and forth and wipe off the old grease as it appears. I find propan-2-ol (isporpanol) woeks well for this. There are some photos in my flickr acocunt (tony_duell I think, but searching for HP9820 will find it) which show a Sony double-head drive stripdown. Your drive is similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 14:54:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 20:54:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Apr 3, 11 03:44:24 pm Message-ID: > > Original picture looks like a miniature version of my garage back > in the early 90's. Walls lined with VT100's and variants stacked up high... > less than fifty of them in all but still a lot for one guy :-) I think VT100s are rather more common than Apple Lisas :-) > I put no energy doing board-level fixes but swapped major subassemblies > with wild abandon. ARGH!!! :-( > I can see it, in some cases, evolving from "having some spares" to > "having so many spares" to "not needing any spares because I fix > everything at the board level" but I never got there! ^^^^^^^^^^^ Dont you mean 'component level' here? Board-level 'repairers' tend to need stacks of spare boards to swap. Anyway, I perhaps take component level repari to ofar sometimes.. I am often pleasnatly suprised by how many of the components I need to reapri my clasis hardware are still easy to obtain. And sometimes if they're not, I'll repair the component (rewind motors, make new macheanical bits, etc). But there are components that I can't go out and buy and that I can't make at home (custom ICs, programmed ROMs, etc). So yes, I cna see that having some things 'for spares' makes sense. -tony > > Tim.= > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 15:07:35 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <906431.64980.qm@web121610.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Tony Duell wrote: >The metal eject mechanism comes off > easily (four screws=20 > > > from underneath, one jesus clip on the eject > motor), so you can easily=20 > > > WD40 it to dissolve the old grease. > > I wouldn't put 'Wanton Destruction 40' anywhere near the > floppy drive (or > any other aprt of a classic computer). The stuff we get in > the UK > contains some quite long-chain waxy hydrocarbons whcih will > gum things up > after a short while. > > I've never worked on a Lisa drive, but I've worked on > plenty of the Sony > full-heigfht 3.5" drives, singel and double head, in HP > units. They are > similar mechancially to the Lisa drive. Some of the odler > eject > mechansims will come totally apart (the levers are held on > with > E-circlips), which makes cleaning a lot easier. The later > ones are > riveted, so you can just rmeove the springs, soak the > assmebly in > solvent, then work the parts back and forth and wipe off > the old grease > as it appears. I find propan-2-ol (isporpanol) woeks > well? for this. > > There are some photos in my flickr acocunt (tony_duell I > think, but > searching for HP9820 will find it) which show a Sony > double-head drive > stripdown. Your drive is similar. > > -tony > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 15:11:36 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <105283.21343.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Oops. Hit the wrong key earlier and sent a message with no reply... --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Tony Duell wrote: > The metal eject mechanism comes off > easily (four screws=20 > > > from underneath, one jesus clip on the eject > motor), so you can easily=20 > > > WD40 it to dissolve the old grease. > > I wouldn't put 'Wanton Destruction 40' anywhere near the > floppy drive (or > any other aprt of a classic computer). You don't use the WD40 as a lubricant. You use it as a solvent, on the disassembled eject mechanism to dissolve the old grease. Then you rinse it out with isopropyl alcohol. The eject mechanism can be completely removed from the drive - but not totally disassembled, as some parts are riveted together. You can, however, remove just the one side (the part that attaches to the eject motor) from the rest of the mech, as this is where it always gets frozen. A good soaking in WD40 to dissolve the grease, followed by a rinse in alcohol will de-crud it nicely. WD40 is a terrible lubricant, but it's a fantastic (and easy to get) solvent. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 15:18:12 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 16:18:12 -0400 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <105283.21343.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <105283.21343.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > WD40 is a terrible lubricant, but it's a fantastic (and easy to get) solvent. It is mainly Stoddart's Solvent, a fairly basic and pretty safe degreaser. It is an easy way to do the bulk of the dirty work - reasonable people know its limitations. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 15:20:50 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 16:20:50 -0400 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Original picture looks like a miniature version of my garage back > in the early 90's. Walls lined with VT100's and variants stacked up high... > less than fifty of them in all but still a lot for one guy :-) Some of us have been in the garage full of PDP-10s. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 15:25:09 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <340419.4309.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/3/11, William Donzelli wrote: > > Some of us have been in the garage full of PDP-10s. > True... but isn't that, what, like two computers? I have a massive stack of SparcStations (and a similar pile-o-XT's), but as neither are rare or desirable, it isn't nearly as impressive. Mental note - just because hardware is free (and stacks nicely), doesn't mean you should drag it home. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 15:28:59 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 16:28:59 -0400 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: <340419.4309.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <340419.4309.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > True... but isn't that, what, like two computers? No, if I remember right it was a KL10E and something like six KS10 (some were ADP 10s). My garage once have three of those KS10s, but no longer. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 3 15:32:29 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 13:32:29 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <105283.21343.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: , <105283.21343.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D9876ED.26818.11AA6B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Apr 2011 at 13:11, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > WD40 is a terrible lubricant, but it's a fantastic (and easy to get) > solvent. I prefer Perc (tetrachloroethylene) in the form of automotive degreaser or brake cleaner. Does not appear to affect most plastics; evaporates completely and leaves a grease-free surface. Works particularly well at removing flux from PCBs. --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 16:06:58 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 14:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? Message-ID: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Been doing some cleaning here, and going through my various DEC terminals. I've got a pretty good set going, but I'm missing the ever-elusive VT52 (OK, yes, and the VT-05, but that doesn't count. ). The one that has managed to elude me for years, however, is the VT52. I know they made a lot of them - it was an early standard of sorts, but they don't turn up nearly as often as VT100's do. So, anyone have one they'd be willing to sell me? I'm in NY, capital area. Working would be a plus, but complete is fine. I can usually fix things if all the parts are there. Speaking of elusive... would also love to find a Tektronix 4010, but... -Ian From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 3 16:10:23 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:10:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <934EF5567BF543AC8CA6C50DB0103781@massey.ac.nz> References: <951107.72533.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <934EF5567BF543AC8CA6C50DB0103781@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, terry stewart wrote: > Re: the Keyboard. > > All three of my Lisa Keyboards had degraded foam pads so much so that between > the three of them only one key worked! However, the computer still > registered a keyboard as being present. > > Alll three keyboards are working now. I got my replacement pads off Erik > Klein, who is a member of this forum. He might have some more left. TRS-80 Model II, 16 and 6000s all use the same type of foam pads, and you can make them yourself. I rebuilt a Model II keyboard using the instructions on this page as a guideline: http://www.solivant.com/sol20kbd/ Another link on that page claims that Sun Type 4 keyboards can be used as donors for the pads. I used a 7/16" hollow punch from Grizzly to cut the pads: http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-pc-Hollow-Punch-Set/G9845 I've also had success with a punch similar to this: http://www.semielectronics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=138_286&products_id=62 And an emergency mylar blanket from WalMart. I used 5mm track bed foam from Woodland Scenics, available at your local hobby shop. The resulting pads are a little stiffer than the original, but perfectly usable. I used the original plastic discs (after cleaning them), and glued the mylar, foam and plastic together with Elmer's Rubber Cement. It's tedious, but it works. YMMV. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 1 14:25:55 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <45ec2f0a3166ec49099e5ea9979806e5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <462903.67129.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> at least gratifying to see that there are as many people speaking in "my defense" as there are speaking out against that horrid little comment I made (and you can take the last part of this sentence as as big a joke as the original post). It would definitely be in bad taste to indicate which are which, they speak for themselves, rather abundantly. I will say nothing other then this - those that are so fast to whine over a silly little comment don't belong in dialogues w/mature adults. From wgungfu at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 11:08:58 2011 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 10:08:58 -0600 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: References: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: The stash is gone, he mentioned he doesn't have any of them any more. Marty On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 6:52 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, terry stewart wrote: > >> I thought I was doing well with my two and a half Lisas. ?Check out this >> stash! ?This photo was posted on the Goggle Lisa List group. >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/48978576 at N08/5581196468/ > > Is he a collector / restorer sort of person or a "black hole"? ?I've tripped > over a number of folks with large quantities of classic gear who seem to > playing the "..he who dies with the most units, wins" game. Drives me crazy > when someone who doesn't touch the equipment, doesn't use it or display it > (in fact, may not even know where it is), has 6-10 of something you have > been desperately looking for and refuses to part with one for any amount of > remuneration. ?Always struck me as sort of a power trip. > > > Steve > > > -- > > From nick.allen at comcast.net Sun Apr 3 12:48:10 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 12:48:10 -0500 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D98B2DA.6000205@comcast.net> awesome link Ethan THANKS! I have been looking for a book just like this to help me in my journey of understanding for some time now, this will greatly help me as I learn! Nick From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Sun Apr 3 16:08:06 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 17:08:06 -0400 Subject: ohio scientific haul Message-ID: <4D98A976020000E40001CFD9@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> First, note where the boards went then pull them out (carefully, those pins can be stubborn and can loosed from the backplane). Next check the power supplies. I have seen an old OSI supply put out 7V where it should have been 5V: that would be a disaster. The fact that someone put voltmeters in the case probably shows some paranoia in this respect! Next, try re-installing boards and if you get lucky, it might just display "D/C/W/M" or rather "H/D/M" on the screen when it boots. The 505 CPU has only one ROM (not BASIC in ROM like many OSI systems did) and so is strictly disk-based (hence the prompt H/D/M). If the video works, try to boot a disk. If it fails to show video, or the video looks completely scrambled with random characters, a likely culprit is memory: in many old OSI systems you see bad RAM that just seems to appear from nowhere. The 527 uses 2114's which are common at least. If you get video, but not much else, you can try using the machine-code monitor (M) to diagnose the memory ... bitsavers probably has a doc on the OS65V monitor which will help (they were all about the same on OSI machines). Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 16:22:35 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:22:35 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > So, anyone have one they'd be willing to sell me? I'm in NY, capital area. Working would be a plus, but complete is fine. I can usually fix things if all the parts are there. Well, I have an extra one. -- Will From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 16:26:16 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I've had great success using a nromal handheld solder sucker to remove > parts from PCBs without damaging either the part or the PCB. it's not > uncommon for me to desolder a ROM from a working machine in order to dump > it out, and then solder it back in place (actually, I'd problaby put a > socket in, but anyray). > > I wouild recommend a temperature controlelr soldering iron a little > hotter than normal (I use a #8 tip in my Weller TCP). A fine tip too. I > also find that dismantling the solder sucker and putting a smear of > vaseline (petroleum jelly) on the washer helps a lot. As I mentioend in > an earlier posting, a new, find nozzle on the sodler sucker helps a lot. That's the same iron I use. Will try the trick with the jelly on the piston ring - good idea. > I would recomend taking the keyboard apart anyway and inspecting these > disks. You can then see if any are likely to be 'active'. Incredibly enough, the foam disks are just fine. None of them have decayed at all. Even with the circuit board lifted clear of the plungers, it's still complaining about no keyboard attached. Continuity between the keyboard and the stereo phone plug is fine. I believe the edge connector between the chassis and the motherboard is shot. Fortunately, all the interconnects between the CRT housing and the motherboard connector are ribbon cables, so it's at least feasible to cut the connector off and crimp a new one on. >>> with grease. The metal eject mechanism comes off easily (four screws=20 >>> from underneath, one jesus clip on the eject motor), so you can easily=20 >>> WD40 it to dissolve the old grease. > > I wouldn't put 'Wanton Destruction 40' anywhere near the floppy drive (or > any other aprt of a classic computer). The stuff we get in the UK > contains some quite long-chain waxy hydrocarbons whcih will gum things up > after a short while. I have some olde-fashioned WD40 that doesn't gum up at all. Just lubed and cleaned the mechanism. The drive now loads slick as anything and spins for a second or two afterwards. I think that's autonomic behavior from the drive PCB itself. The system doesn't seem to recognize that a drive is attached, providing more ammunition for my theory that the motherboard connector is shot. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 16:27:54 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <951107.72533.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <934EF5567BF543AC8CA6C50DB0103781@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, terry stewart wrote: > >> Re: the Keyboard. >> >> All three of my Lisa Keyboards had degraded foam pads so much so that >> between the three of them only one key worked! However, the computer still >> registered a keyboard as being present. >> >> Alll three keyboards are working now. I got my replacement pads off Erik >> Klein, who is a member of this forum. He might have some more left. > > TRS-80 Model II, 16 and 6000s all use the same type of foam pads, and you > can make them yourself. I rebuilt a Model II keyboard using the instructions > on this page as a guideline: > > http://www.solivant.com/sol20kbd/ > > Another link on that page claims that Sun Type 4 keyboards can be used as > donors for the pads. > > I used a 7/16" hollow punch from Grizzly to cut the pads: > > http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-pc-Hollow-Punch-Set/G9845 > > I've also had success with a punch similar to this: > > http://www.semielectronics.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=138_286&products_id=62 > > And an emergency mylar blanket from WalMart. > > I used 5mm track bed foam from Woodland Scenics, available at your local > hobby shop. The resulting pads are a little stiffer than the original, but > perfectly usable. I used the original plastic discs (after cleaning them), > and glued the mylar, foam and plastic together with Elmer's Rubber Cement. > It's tedious, but it works. Thanks for the detailed input, Mike! As it turns out, the Lisa keyboard foam is not degraded at all. Must be the luck of the draw. -- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 16:34:12 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 14:34:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboard foam discs (WAS: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <891623.83655.qm@web121612.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Mike Loewen wrote: > ???And an emergency mylar blanket from > WalMart. > > ???I used 5mm track bed foam from Woodland > Scenics, available at your local hobby shop.? The > resulting pads are a little stiffer than the original, but > perfectly usable.? I used the original plastic discs > (after cleaning them), and glued the mylar, foam and plastic > together with Elmer's Rubber Cement.? It's tedious, but > it works. I used a roll of foam rubber weatherstripping from the hardware store - I found one that was the correct thickness, I'll have to look for the brand name and part number. For the conductive side, I used a cut-up antistatic bag, and for the plastic side, I used some thin flexible plastic I found somewhere - but I'm sure a transparency film or similar would work - the stuff I had was only slightly thicker. The foam I used was self-adhesive, so I stuck that to the plastic backing first. Then I used 3M spray adhesive to coat the top of the foam (it's only self-adhesive on one side), and glued down the anti-static bag. After that, let it dry thoroughly (otherwise, the glue sticks the foam together and holds it compressed). Once dry, I punched out lots of little foam discs and populated the keyboard. Tedious, but not too bad. I had better results punching if I punched from the mylar side than from the plastic side - but it could have just been my punch/material combination. It takes a couple hours, but it's worth it to have a functional keyboard. Again, the foam I used was slightly stiffer than the original stuff, but it worked great. The keyboard I rebuilt in this manner was for a Franklin Ace 1000, but I've tested the discs in other keyboards and they work fine. The Keytronic mechanism seems to be the same across the various keyboards. -Ian From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Apr 3 16:37:32 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 14:37:32 -0700 Subject: Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P software Message-ID: <4D98E89C.8010602@mail.msu.edu> This afternoon I picked up a complete OSI Challenger 4P (model C4PMF) with 5.25" disk driveand a stack of manuals. It's in decent shape and I've been going over it and cleaning it up (with a little wood polish for the sides :)). Power supplies seem to be working nominally so I've fired it up, and it appears to be working correctly. It came with half a dozen floppies, but they're in pretty sorry shape and only one of them actually boots (well, almost boots - it errors out after a little while into the boot process). I've of course cleaned the drive's heads beforehand :). The C4PMF does not have a cassette interface (alas) so I can't load cassette software on this thing. And no BASIC in ROM, so if I want to bootstrap this thing over a serial port I'll be entering in machine code to do it :). So I have two immediate questions: 1) Is there an archive anywhere of disk images for this machine? I've done a fair amount of searching and I haven't found much outside of a few OS images included with emulators. 2) Anyone have any experience getting software onto the machine from a "modern" PC? Can floppies for the C4P be written on a PC (using ImageDisk or the like)? Thanks for any advice. This looks like a really cool machine, and I can't wait to get it running. - Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Apr 3 16:39:21 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 14:39:21 -0700 Subject: Looking for AT case in Seattle area Message-ID: <4D98E909.1010706@mail.msu.edu> Subject says it all -- I unwittingly gave away my last AT case a while back and now I have need to build an old 486 for a project. RE-PC in Tukwila/Seattle has let me down, all they seem to keep around are ATX cases these days. Anyone have one to get rid of, cheap? Something mid-tower-ish would be great, but I'm not too picky as long as it has a working power supply... Thanks! Josh From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 3 16:47:21 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 22:47:21 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007a01cbf248$b9db1160$2d913420$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: 03 April 2011 22:07 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? > > Been doing some cleaning here, and going through my various DEC > terminals. I've got a pretty good set going, but I'm missing the ever-elusive > VT52 (OK, yes, and the VT-05, but that doesn't count. ). The one that > has managed to elude me for years, however, is the VT52. I know they made > a lot of them - it was an early standard of sorts, but they don't turn up nearly > as often as VT100's do. > > So, anyone have one they'd be willing to sell me? I'm in NY, capital area. > Working would be a plus, but complete is fine. I can usually fix things if all > the parts are there. > > Speaking of elusive... would also love to find a Tektronix 4010, but... > > -Ian Surprised you suggest that VT100s are still relatively easily found. How common are they in the US? I have not been able to find one here in the UK and I don't recall seeing many in the US. I only look on eBay though, am I looking in the wrong places? Regards Rob From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 3 16:49:58 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:49:58 -0400 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink References: <462903.67129.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:25 PM Subject: Re: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink > at least gratifying to see that there are as many people speaking in "my > defense" as there are speaking out against that horrid little comment I > made (and you can take the last part of this sentence as as big a joke as > the original post). It would definitely be in bad taste to indicate which > are which, they speak for themselves, rather abundantly. > I will say nothing other then this - those that are so fast to whine over > a silly little comment don't belong in dialogues w/mature adults. > > > > Adults don't go around pushing peoples buttons for cheap thrills either. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 3 16:45:33 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 14:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: <462903.67129.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 3:25 PM > Subject: Re: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink > > >> at least gratifying to see that there are as many people speaking in "my >> defense" as there are speaking out against that horrid little comment I >> made (and you can take the last part of this sentence as as big a joke as >> the original post). It would definitely be in bad taste to indicate which >> are which, they speak for themselves, rather abundantly. >> I will say nothing other then this - those that are so fast to whine over a >> silly little comment don't belong in dialogues w/mature adults. >> >> >> >> > > Adults don't go around pushing peoples buttons for cheap thrills either. > ...but if we're really, really, really bored and the Purina Troll Chow bowl is empty.... :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 17:11:10 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 18:11:10 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <007a01cbf248$b9db1160$2d913420$@ntlworld.com> References: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <007a01cbf248$b9db1160$2d913420$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > Surprised you suggest that VT100s are still relatively easily found. How > common are they in the US? I have not been able to find one here in the UK > and I don't recall seeing many in the US. I only look on eBay though, am I > looking in the wrong places? Yes. VT100s (and variants) are still reasonably easy to find in the US, but these days it takes legwork. DEC must have made a zillion of the things. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 3 17:14:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 18:14:22 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: References: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <007a01cbf248$b9db1160$2d913420$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D98F13E.1020707@neurotica.com> On 4/3/11 6:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Surprised you suggest that VT100s are still relatively easily found. How >> common are they in the US? I have not been able to find one here in the UK >> and I don't recall seeing many in the US. I only look on eBay though, am I >> looking in the wrong places? > > Yes. VT100s (and variants) are still reasonably easy to find in the > US, but these days it takes legwork. DEC must have made a zillion of > the things. It takes *quite a bit* of legwork to find a VT100 these days. They dried up about 8-10 years ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 3 17:22:17 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 18:22:17 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? References: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7384CA863E0040B298C08AB587B523CE@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mr Ian Primus" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:06 PM Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? > Been doing some cleaning here, and going through my various DEC terminals. > I've got a pretty good set going, but I'm missing the ever-elusive VT52 > (OK, yes, and the VT-05, but that doesn't count. ). The one that has > managed to elude me for years, however, is the VT52. I know they made a > lot of them - it was an early standard of sorts, but they don't turn up > nearly as often as VT100's do. > > So, anyone have one they'd be willing to sell me? I'm in NY, capital area. > Working would be a plus, but complete is fine. I can usually fix things if > all the parts are there. > > Speaking of elusive... would also love to find a Tektronix 4010, but... > > -Ian > Too bad you didn't want a VT525 I have one of those extra. From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 18:05:41 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 16:05:41 -0700 Subject: neat ibm mainframe video on youtube Message-ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwj6pfhWBps great video for the big iron guys out there From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 18:38:40 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 18:38:40 -0500 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have 6 VT52's I've been waiting to get shipped in here, and should be ready for them in a few months. No idea what the condiction is, and i'm keeping a few. I have most of the VT100 family (except the VT103) and a lot of parts, but short of keyboards. Paul On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 4:06 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Been doing some cleaning here, and going through my various DEC terminals. I've got a pretty good set going, but I'm missing the ever-elusive VT52 (OK, yes, and the VT-05, but that doesn't count. ). The one that has managed to elude me for years, however, is the VT52. I know they made a lot of them - it was an early standard of sorts, but they don't turn up nearly as often as VT100's do. > > So, anyone have one they'd be willing to sell me? I'm in NY, capital area. Working would be a plus, but complete is fine. I can usually fix things if all the parts are there. > > Speaking of elusive... would also love to find a Tektronix 4010, but... > > -Ian > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Apr 3 20:14:21 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 18:14:21 -0700 Subject: Looking for AT case in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <4D98E909.1010706@mail.msu.edu> References: <4D98E909.1010706@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D991B6D.7050109@mail.msu.edu> I've gotten offers from several generous listmembers, looks like this request is taken care of. Thanks, all! Josh On 4/3/2011 2:39 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Subject says it all -- I unwittingly gave away my last AT case a while > back and now I have need to build an old 486 for a project. RE-PC in > Tukwila/Seattle has let me down, all they seem to keep around are ATX > cases these days. > > Anyone have one to get rid of, cheap? Something mid-tower-ish would > be great, but I'm not too picky as long as it has a working power > supply... > > Thanks! > Josh > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 20:16:01 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 21:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <5487EAC406EE4C778E122786F17F3201@portajara> References: <43783.7293.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5487EAC406EE4C778E122786F17F3201@portajara> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I cleaned things up enough to get the self-test and startup to run. The >> DB-9F mouse connector is effectively destroyed from the battery >> electrolyte. If I wiggle the connector the mouse is operational, though. A >> good sign. Not looking forward to pulling the old DB9 right-angle >> connector from the motherboard... This one is too far gone for cleaning >> and will definitely need to be replaced. > > Steven, when I get some device with this level of trouble, I usually > disassemble EVERYTHING in the affected area, clean it up with grit pad until > I can see only cooper and start to retin the traces with common solder, and > repair broken traces with very thin wire-up wire. Replace everything with NEW > parts. Usually it works at first and does not break up after. A throught > clean-up is primordial for having no problems on the future. > > I'm sorry I'm so far away (I live in Brazil). I'd love to help you on this > matter. Heh. Thanks anyway - it's the thought that counts :-). You've just described the ordeal I went through fixing my Amiga 4000. That motherboard is the opposite end of the quality spectrum from the Lisa. Very thin cladding, wimpy solder masking. There were two or three obviously-eaten traces around the battery site, but unfortunately that wasn't the extent of it. Ended up removing the RTC clock latch, the two adjacent LS166 chips (mouse and game port interface), the Ricoh RTC chip, the F257 memory bus driver and a couple of electrolytic caps. Things were chewed enough around the clock latch that pads lifted despite my taking great care. Took a full saturday afternoon to rebuild with 30g Kynar wire. Found two more traces eaten - one under the Ricoh chip and one under the first LS166. It's not real pretty now, but it does work 100%! The real casualties in the Lisa are the bus connectors. I'm going to replace the one on the CRT cage first, since it's a ribbon-cable crimp on type. The memory card connectors are a bit flakey, but I don't want to tackle that just yet since it works most of the time. More important to get the keyboard and floppy disk operational and the connector is the common denominator there. Still curious what folks' experiences are in using a hot-air reflow tool to soften up through-lead components from behind for removal. Steve -- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 3 20:41:57 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 02:41:57 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <43783.7293.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5487EAC406EE4C778E122786F17F3201@portajara> Message-ID: <4D9921E5.1050506@philpem.me.uk> On 04/04/11 02:16, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Ended up removing the RTC clock latch, the two adjacent LS166 chips > (mouse and game port interface), the Ricoh RTC chip, the F257 memory bus > driver and a couple of electrolytic caps. Things were chewed enough > around the clock latch that pads lifted despite my taking great care. > Took a full saturday afternoon to rebuild with 30g Kynar wire. Found two > more traces eaten - one under the Ricoh chip and one under the first LS166. Yuck, and I thought my repair of the 386 motherboard was bad... As I recall, that was two broken tracks, a few broken through-plated holes, some broken solder joints on the resistors and diodes around the battery, and a serious case of disintegrating PCB... The HP16500B was worse. About a dozen broken tracks on the system board which the previous seller neglected to mention, all on the address bus. It "worked"... until I removed and reinstalled the Slot A card (16530A digital scope timebase) while I was installing a CompactFlash card mod. Net result of that was that the system software thought the LAN card was hosed, and wiped the MAC address / LAN settings EEPROM. That was NOT fun to fix. I think I went through about a dozen surface-mount PLCC sockets before I managed to solder one down without melting the baseplate. Those things are evil. > Still curious what folks' experiences are in using a hot-air reflow tool > to soften up through-lead components from behind for removal. Doesn't work that well in my experience. Although a hot-air preheater combined with a soldering iron works wonders. Bring the board up to about 150 Celsius, then use a soldering iron to provide the extra heat required to melt the solder. A similar trick is used when soldering and desoldering small SMD parts with a hot-air station... I think your best bet would be a heated-vacuum tool. Basically a solder-sucker mated to a soldering iron... Some little cheats which might help out: * If the surface of the solder is corroded, scratch into it with a knife. This should reveal a bit of fairly fresh solder: scratch off enough that your iron can make good thermal contact with the joint (oxidised solder doesn't conduct heat particularly well). * Melt some fresh solder into the joint. Rosin flux paste or gel (usually used for SMD soldering) is also worth a try. * Desolder wick will remove most of the solder, but it most likely won't clear a through plated hole unless you make several attempts (desolder, fill with solder, hold iron for a few seconds, repeat). Which brings me onto my next trick... * 24swg tinned copper wire is GREAT for clearing solder out of through holes without damaging the plating. Enamelled copper might work too. * If all else fails you may have to drill out the solder joint. Don't do this on a four-layer board -- it'll ruin the plating. You can fix the plating on a two-layer board using thin tinned copper wire (40SWG or thinner). RoadRunner wire is good for this, especially the tinned-copper stuff. * If you repair tracks with wire, DO NOT use cyanoacrylate glue to stick the wire down! Use a few small pieces of Magic Tape or dots of epoxy. Cyanoacrylate degrades under heat (forming extremely hazardous fumes which WILL burn your eyes, nose and throat quite effectively). Epoxies can be removed with a small heat gun if necessary, or just plain pulled off of the solder resist. Kapton (brown heat-resistant polyimide) tape is good too (buy a few rolls of this stuff if you don't have some already!). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 20:46:18 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 18:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <583547.5229.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > Still curious what folks' experiences are in using a > hot-air reflow tool to soften up through-lead components > from behind for removal. Well, I don't have a hot air rework station, but I do have a heat gun (the sort used for stripping paint...), and I have used it many times to scavenge components from circuit boards. It's pretty easy to desolder DIP packaged chips like this. But, usually, the board is damaged from the heat - it starts to delaminate a bit, solder mask burns, etc. With practice though, it is possible to desolder components without damaging the board in this manner. When it comes to that DSUB connector, I'd probably just break/cut away as much of the old connector as I can, and desolder the pins manually. You're less likely to damage the board that way. You'll need a fairly hefty iron to desolder the ground lug/mounting ears though, but the pins should pose no particular problem. I have done some work on Lisa boards, replacing RAM chips, etc, and I had no problem with the data/address pins on RAM chips - but the power pins were very difficult. The Lisa RAM boards are four layer, and I think the inner two are just ground and power planes. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 3 21:05:17 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 19:05:17 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9921E5.1050506@philpem.me.uk> References: <43783.7293.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <4D9921E5.1050506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D98C4ED.26408.24B58E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Apr 2011 at 2:41, Philip Pemberton wrote: > * Desolder wick will remove most of the solder, but it most likely > won't clear a through plated hole unless you make several attempts > (desolder, fill with solder, hold iron for a few seconds, repeat). > Which brings me onto my next trick... Use a nice big Soldapullt? Cleans the holes for me, particularly if you hold the PCB in a board vise and use the Soldapullt on one side, while apply heat (and a little solder) to the other side. Push the button and the hole is clean as a whistle. Little Soldapullts are next to worthless. Get the big one (DS017 or its variant versions). I do use solder wick, but mostly for soldering SMT ICs. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 3 22:50:04 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 20:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <105283.21343.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from Mr Ian Primus at "Apr 3, 11 01:11:36 pm" Message-ID: <201104040350.p343o42S002610@floodgap.com> > WD40 is a terrible lubricant, but it's a fantastic (and easy to get) solvent. It's murder on the eyes when it sprays back though. Don't ask me how I know this. Where did I put my eyepatch? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of DeForest Kelley ----------------------------------------------- From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Apr 3 22:55:22 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:55:22 +1200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration References: <583547.5229.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I recently added some sockets and replacement 4164 chips on Lisa RAM boards as Ian and others on the Lisa List will know. (see http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-04-02-fixing-lisa-memory-cards.htm is you want the details.) These multi-layer boards are tricky, and I did manage to nuke a couple of lines. I usually use solder wick to clean out the holes, but these were the most difficult I've come across (then again, I had very limited experience on multi-layer boards). Terry (Tez) > I have done some work on Lisa boards, replacing RAM chips, etc, and I had > no problem with the data/address pins on RAM chips - but the power pins > were very >difficult. The Lisa RAM boards are four layer, and I think the > inner two are just ground and power planes. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 3 22:58:03 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 23:58:03 -0400 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration References: <201104040350.p343o42S002610@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46CEFFB298384EA7BAD4AC4A5E771881@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 11:50 PM Subject: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration >> WD40 is a terrible lubricant, but it's a fantastic (and easy to get) >> solvent. > > It's murder on the eyes when it sprays back though. > Don't ask me how I know this. > > Where did I put my eyepatch? > So you are the guy that causes manufacturers to have 1000 warning stickers on everyhting I buy! ;) I wear glasses so they act as safety goggles (polycarbonite lenses will stop pretty much anything that would not take your head off). From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 23:35:06 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 23:35:06 -0500 Subject: Moldy data tape help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 11:33 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > I just got a load of Wang equipment (thanks Jason) and one of the Data tapes has mold on it. Wow, I didn't even know there was a tape in that lot. I should have known there was mold, though, I smelled it all the way there :) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 3 23:36:55 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 00:36:55 -0400 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! References: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <5912A2002C8C47BABD82039EEDDC0FAB@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 8:52 AM Subject: Re: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! > On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, terry stewart wrote: > >> I thought I was doing well with my two and a half Lisas. Check out this >> stash! This photo was posted on the Goggle Lisa List group. >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/48978576 at N08/5581196468/ > > Is he a collector / restorer sort of person or a "black hole"? I've > tripped over a number of folks with large quantities of classic gear who > seem to playing the "..he who dies with the most units, wins" game. Drives > me crazy when someone who doesn't touch the equipment, doesn't use it or > display it (in fact, may not even know where it is), has 6-10 of something > you have been desperately looking for and refuses to part with one for any > amount of remuneration. Always struck me as sort of a power trip. > > > Steve Does it matter if you have 10 units of a rare model you restore and keep in your basement so nobody knows about them and they still end up recycled when you die compared to just stacked and neglected till death? I guess you never dealt with hoarders before, you don't offer money to them you offer multiple big grungy junkers for the single item you want. Most people will either trade for something they want more, or take the cash payout that will buy that more desirable item.The problems come when something is rare but not that valuable but the owner thinks it is made of gold and would only trade it for a mint 1971 Hemi Cuda convertible. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 16:41:15 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:41:15 -0400 Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions Message-ID: >From: joe heck >I have a 3100 model 80 with a failing disk drive. The two drives in it now are Seagate ST15150N (I believe). I have a couple of questions: >Are there NEW drives out there that will work with this VAX? >What do I need to do to make a drive format/work? Joe, I have quite a few small SCSI drives in my collection, but no ST15150N drive. What capacity do you need? -- Michael Thompson From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 19:07:44 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 17:07:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road Message-ID: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Can't say anything other then it's in my car. It'll be the second "plotter" I've picked up for little or nothing (I was actually a good 10 miles from "ground zero" before I realized this thing is just a big ink jet printer, not a plotter). Anyway it should be good for making large format schematics and whatnot. Doesn't everybody love those? Anyone w/docs or drivers please contact me. Perhaps offlist. From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 01:24:45 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 23:24:45 -0700 Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: do you know what the model number is On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 5:07 PM, Chris M wrote: > Can't say anything other then it's in my car. It'll be the second "plotter" > I've picked up for little or nothing (I was actually a good 10 miles from > "ground zero" before I realized this thing is just a big ink jet printer, > not a plotter). Anyway it should be good for making large format schematics > and whatnot. Doesn't everybody love those? > Anyone w/docs or drivers please contact me. Perhaps offlist. > > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 4 02:57:55 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 03:57:55 -0400 Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions References: <4D98BE36.7070604@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <54CDCBD005FB4D74BC299585BB65D04C@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe heck" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 2:36 PM Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions > Hi all, > > I have a 3100 model 80 with a failing disk drive. The two drives in it > now are Seagate ST15150N (I believe). I have a couple of questions: > Are there NEW drives out there that will work with this VAX? > What do I need to do to make a drive format/work? > > I installed the drives probably over ten years ago and I just don't > remember if I had to format them special or on another box or what. I > don't have the manuals any more, so I'm stuck. > > Thanks for any advice you folks have... > > Joe Heck > I think I have ST15150N in my Microvax 3100/85 (still working). I dug around my stash but didnt see any 50 pin Seagates of that type, I know I have a couple but they must be in a Mac at the moment. I do have some SCA ones higher capacity but you are better off with native 50 pin. If you cannot find any I do have a stash of lightly used or unused (purchased an opened box of 20 a while back from a tech school that had them in stock) 2GB 50 pin Quantums. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Apr 4 04:53:06 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 02:53:06 -0700 Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: <46CEFFB298384EA7BAD4AC4A5E771881@dell8300> Message-ID: Perhaps I am just weird, but I rarely damage circuit boards or components when de-soldering. I have a Hakko 808 de-soldering gun. The biggest things I have learned from de-soldering are: Add fresh solder where you are able to, I have notices as solder ages and oxidizes it gets to be a nightmare to melt. Also fresh Flux can help some times. Keep your de-soldering nozzle cleaned, I use the sponge on my Hakko 936 ESD safe temp controlled solder station. Once you hear the de-soldering gun start to labor, you need to check for obstructions, and make sure your receptacle is NOT full of solder and the flux filter is not plugged up. I am at the point on it where 95% of the time I can get IC sockets out of pc boards without damaging them. And have yet to *knock on wood* lift a trace on a board I was repairing, including the ATARI XF551 single sided boards where the traces are held on with good wishes. That isn't to say I haven't pulled components from boards and then been amazed at the crap that some manufacturers put into their products. I'd rather pay 5-10$ more and have a manufacturer use quality components :( I wish my AOIUE hot air rework station also had a good de-solder gun on it, that way I wouldn't need 3 or 4 things to do the builds and repairs on equipment. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Apr 4 04:56:55 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 02:56:55 -0700 Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions In-Reply-To: <54CDCBD005FB4D74BC299585BB65D04C@dell8300> Message-ID: On 4/4/11 12:57 AM, "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "joe heck" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 2:36 PM > Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions > > >> Hi all, >> >> I have a 3100 model 80 with a failing disk drive. The two drives in it >> now are Seagate ST15150N (I believe). I have a couple of questions: >> Are there NEW drives out there that will work with this VAX? >> What do I need to do to make a drive format/work? >> >> I installed the drives probably over ten years ago and I just don't >> remember if I had to format them special or on another box or what. I >> don't have the manuals any more, so I'm stuck. >> >> Thanks for any advice you folks have... >> >> Joe Heck >> > > I think I have ST15150N in my Microvax 3100/85 (still working). I dug around > my stash but didnt see any 50 pin Seagates of that type, I know I have a > couple but they must be in a Mac at the moment. I do have some SCA ones > higher capacity but you are better off with native 50 pin. If you cannot > find any I do have a stash of lightly used or unused (purchased an opened > box of 20 a while back from a tech school that had them in stock) 2GB 50 > pin Quantums. You might want though to think of using a SCA-> Narrow/Wide converter, ISTR that many of the SCA drives have higher MTBF than the narrow drives did. How big of a drive do you need? And I presume 3.5" form factor, 1" or the taller models??? I may have a bunch of 50 pin scsi drives in storage, and will be going by there later this week. From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Apr 4 06:30:39 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 07:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for AT case in Seattle area Message-ID: <8CDC0D2DC0755D4-17F8-188D0@Webmail-m119.sysops.aol.com> Alas, I got rid of the last AT-ish style case that I had, before I moved up to Seattle. Have you checked at the RE-PC store in Seattle as well? I tend to forget about that one, as Tukwila is much closer to me. Plus, it saddens me to see the PDP-11/23 system sitting there powered down, as a museum piece. *Sigh* \ It never hurts to check out Goodwill, either. I recall spying a desktop (several months ago) that was sporting an "AT" keyboard connector, at the store on the hill in Renton across from Little Peking. . . . so I know that they're out there. . . T From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 06:55:18 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 07:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9921E5.1050506@philpem.me.uk> References: <43783.7293.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5487EAC406EE4C778E122786F17F3201@portajara> <4D9921E5.1050506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Still curious what folks' experiences are in using a hot-air reflow tool >> to soften up through-lead components from behind for removal. > > Doesn't work that well in my experience. Although a hot-air preheater > combined with a soldering iron works wonders. Bring the board up to about 150 > Celsius, then use a soldering iron to provide the extra heat required to melt > the solder. A similar trick is used when soldering and desoldering small SMD > parts with a hot-air station... For components like a right-angle DE9 connector, the top side of the board is not accessible. Do you think using the hot-air handle for preheat would do any good? If it was set at e.g. 150-200C with medium airflow that might bring things up enough that I won't need a long application of the iron. Or, maybe I should just break down and buy a preheater... > I think your best bet would be a heated-vacuum tool. Basically a > solder-sucker mated to a soldering iron... Alas, I have two of them. An older OK Industries tool and a new BlackJack Solderwerks thingie from Circuit Specialists. Neither of them is worth a crap from my experience. Occasionally I'm able to clear the hole, but more often it simply doesn't have enough suction to do the job and the heat ends up damaging the via and/or adjacent traces. > Some little cheats which might help out: > * If the surface of the solder is corroded, scratch into it with a knife. > This should reveal a bit of fairly fresh solder: scratch off enough that your > iron can make good thermal contact with the joint (oxidised solder doesn't > conduct heat particularly well). > > * Melt some fresh solder into the joint. Rosin flux paste or gel (usually > used for SMD soldering) is also worth a try. I do that as a matter of course - it does help a lot. > * Desolder wick will remove most of the solder, but it most likely won't > clear a through plated hole unless you make several attempts (desolder, fill > with solder, hold iron for a few seconds, repeat). Which brings me onto my > next trick... > > * 24swg tinned copper wire is GREAT for clearing solder out of through > holes without damaging the plating. Enamelled copper might work too. This would be _after_ the component is removed, correct? If not, would you mind elaborating a bit? > * If all else fails you may have to drill out the solder joint. Don't do > this on a four-layer board -- it'll ruin the plating. You can fix the plating > on a two-layer board using thin tinned copper wire (40SWG or thinner). > RoadRunner wire is good for this, especially the tinned-copper stuff. I picked up a quantity of carbide-tipped PCB drills for just such a purpose. Sort of a last resort, I'll grant you. > * If you repair tracks with wire, DO NOT use cyanoacrylate glue to stick > the wire down! Use a few small pieces of Magic Tape or dots of epoxy. > Cyanoacrylate degrades under heat (forming extremely hazardous fumes which > WILL burn your eyes, nose and throat quite effectively). Epoxies can be > removed with a small heat gun if necessary, or just plain pulled off of the > solder resist. Kapton (brown heat-resistant polyimide) tape is good too (buy > a few rolls of this stuff if you don't have some already!). Is the Kapton tape available from electronic suppliers? I'll take a look at the DigiKey catalog forthwith. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 06:58:49 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 07:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <583547.5229.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: > I recently added some sockets and replacement 4164 chips on Lisa RAM boards > as Ian and others on the Lisa List will know. > (see > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-04-02-fixing-lisa-memory-cards.htm > is you want the details.) > > These multi-layer boards are tricky, and I did manage to nuke a couple of > lines. I usually use solder wick to clean out the holes, but these were the > most difficult I've come across (then again, I had very limited experience on > multi-layer boards). My Amiga was a four-layer board as well, so I've been down that road. You can understand my trepidation at the thought of replacing a 60-something pin card-edge connector! A properly designed multi-layer board should be using thermal reliefs around the Gnd and +V pins, but I'm not sure how much that is done in consumer equipment. Its a cross-shaped structure intended to provide thermal resistance between the via and the body of the internal plane. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 07:02:41 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 08:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Keyboard foam discs (WAS: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: <891623.83655.qm@web121612.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <891623.83655.qm@web121612.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> ???And an emergency mylar blanket from >> WalMart. >> >> ???I used 5mm track bed foam from Woodland >> Scenics, available at your local hobby shop.? The >> resulting pads are a little stiffer than the original, but >> perfectly usable.? I used the original plastic discs >> (after cleaning them), and glued the mylar, foam and plastic >> together with Elmer's Rubber Cement.? It's tedious, but >> it works. > > I used a roll of foam rubber weatherstripping from the hardware store - > I found one that was the correct thickness, I'll have to look for the > brand name and part number. > > For the conductive side, I used a cut-up antistatic bag, and for the > plastic side, I used some thin flexible plastic I found somewhere - but > I'm sure a transparency film or similar would work - the stuff I had was > only slightly thicker. The anti-static bag had enough conductivity to do the job? I would never have suspected that. > The foam I used was self-adhesive, so I stuck that to the plastic > backing first. Then I used 3M spray adhesive to coat the top of the foam > (it's only self-adhesive on one side), and glued down the anti-static > bag. After that, let it dry thoroughly (otherwise, the glue sticks the > foam together and holds it compressed). Once dry, I punched out lots of > little foam discs and populated the keyboard. Tedious, but not too bad. > I had better results punching if I punched from the mylar side than from > the plastic side - but it could have just been my punch/material > combination. > > It takes a couple hours, but it's worth it to have a functional > keyboard. Again, the foam I used was slightly stiffer than the original > stuff, but it worked great. The keyboard I rebuilt in this manner was > for a Franklin Ace 1000, but I've tested the discs in other keyboards > and they work fine. The Keytronic mechanism seems to be the same across > the various keyboards. I just picked up a Sun 4 keyboard on eBay, since they apparently use the same keytronics arrangement internally. Long run, I'm going to track down the necessary tools to do fabricate from scratch. I have several other old boxen with this style of keyboard, so eventually I'll need to bite the bullet and learn how to do it. Steve -- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 4 07:28:05 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 05:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboard foam discs (WAS: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <845972.15682.qm@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > The anti-static bag had enough conductivity to do the > job? I would never have suspected that. Yup! It worked perfectly. The keyboard contacts are capacitive, rather than a standard switch. You don't want something like aluminum foil that's truly a conductor. I actually tried several materials, including this super thin shiny mylar thermal barrier stuff they use at work. The anti-static bag worked perfectly. Another plus is that anti-static circuit board bags are very easy to find, especially in their natual habitat of my basement. Note that I used the shiny silver, semi-translucent kind. I somehow doubt that the clear pink kind or the clear with black lines kind would work as well. > I just picked up a Sun 4 keyboard on eBay, since they > apparently use the same keytronics arrangement > internally. Long run, I'm going to track down the > necessary tools to do fabricate from scratch. I have > several other old boxen with this style of keyboard, so > eventually I'll need to bite the bullet and learn how to do > it. I thought of scavenging pads from a Sun keyboard, but at the same time, I've got type 4 keyboards that are starting to fail too. (speaking of which, I once had a rather frightening experience trying to log in to a production server as root, it would not accept my password, which I knew to be correct, although I could log in as another user. Turns out the left shift key on the Type 4 keyboard on the console had failed - root's password contained some capital letters, the user account did not.) -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 4 07:33:47 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 05:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <829228.61109.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Chris M wrote: > Can't say anything other then it's in > my car. It'll be the second "plotter" I've picked up for > little or nothing (I was actually a good 10 miles from > "ground zero" before I realized this thing is just a big ink > jet printer, not a plotter). Anyway it should be good for > making large format schematics and whatnot. Doesn't > everybody love those? > Anyone w/docs or drivers please contact me. Perhaps > offlist. Yeah, they switched from proper pen plotters to "giant inkjets" a long time ago. In fact, I can't remember the last time I saw a pen plotter in service. I've fixed a lot of those HP inkjet plotters. I've probably even got the service manual for it. What model is it? Usual inkjet caveats apply, but common failures for the big machines are the drive belt (long toothed belt that allows the printer to move the head back and forth), and the metal rails the head rides on getting gummed up. Clean them with alcohol if you're getting odd faults that halt printing. There is also this little optical strip that lets the printer know where the head is. If fuzz gets in this sensor, it can also cause unusual faults. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 4 07:59:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 08:59:20 -0400 Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D99C0A8.5010509@neurotica.com> On 4/3/11 8:07 PM, Chris M wrote: > Can't say anything other then it's in my car. It'll be the second > "plotter" I've picked up for little or nothing (I was actually a good > 10 miles from "ground zero" before I realized this thing is just a > big ink jet printer, not a plotter). Anyway it should be good for > making large format schematics and whatnot. Doesn't everybody love > those? Anyone w/docs or drivers please contact me. Perhaps offlist. Yes, the architecture/engineering (in the "we make buildings" context) world uses those a lot. The big inkjets replaced pen plotters a long time ago, but these guys still call them "plotters" even though that's not what they are. Yet another case of an industry using tools that they don't understand, but whatever. I love using them for schematics. The newer models fetch big bucks (thousands, sometimes more) on the used market if they work. The older ones typically go for hundreds. Even parts units typically fetch $100+, so finding one in any condition for free (or nearly so) is a good score. I may be able to get some service manuals (a friend owns a company that maintains dozens of those plotters in the field), but as far as drivers...they speak Postscript and/or PCL, depending on how they're configured, and nearly all of them have Ethernet and speak standard LPR/LPD protocol...one would be hard-pressed to find any OS release from the past fifteen years that won't handle those natively. These big inkjets will work with almost anything. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 4 08:16:08 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 09:16:08 -0400 Subject: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems Message-ID: <4D99C498.9080306@compsys.to> Is there any interest in extending any of the PDP-11 operating systems so that they are able to support dates at least until 3000? While my personal interest lies with RT-11, I am curious if anyone has looked at the requirements for any of the other PDP-11 operating systems to determine what is required for Y3K date support? In addition, are the resources (technical knowledge, files to make the required changes and hardware to support the development) available? For RT-11, the resources are available and I suggest a review of the required software changes by anyone who has the technical background to evaluate any proposals for Y3K implementation. If other individuals who are interested in RSX-11, RSTS/E and TSX-Plus are motivated to support Y3K implementation for these OSs, I would be interested in providing support for any solutions required to exchange dates between all PDP-11 operating systems. I am not sure if there is any commercial impact to producing Y3K code for PDP-11 OSs. However, it is possible that any current commercial use MIGHT be more likely if Y3K support is available. On the other hand, it is almost certain that any Y3K projects for all PDP-11 OSs must be done without any commercial support at this time. Consequently, as with all DECUS contributions, any actual code changes would become available to everyone. If this enhances the commercial value of the PDP-11 OSs, then it should be a positive development. Responses and suggestions are appreciated. If, as I have noted in the past there is no response, then at some point when it seems worthwhile, I shall at least present the technical details of what is required to implement Y3K for RT-11. There may also be details of other enhancements along with RT-11 bug fixes. If anyone has a wish list for RT-11 or knows of any RT-11 bugs which need fixing, I would very much appreciate the help. Jerome Fine From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 4 08:33:23 2011 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 09:33:23 -0400 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <662465.77188.qm@smtp108.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> On Mon, 4 Apr 2011 07:55:18 -0400 (EDT), Steven Hirsch wrote: >For components like a right-angle DE9 connector, the top side of the board >is not accessible. In the past I have used my roto-tool to cut the connector up/off leaving just enough of the pins to desolder and pull out one by one from the top. The Other Bob From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 4 09:37:46 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 15:37:46 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <43783.7293.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5487EAC406EE4C778E122786F17F3201@portajara> <4D9921E5.1050506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D99D7BA.4070109@philpem.me.uk> On 04/04/11 12:55, Steven Hirsch wrote: > For components like a right-angle DE9 connector, the top side of the > board is not accessible. Do you think using the hot-air handle for > preheat would do any good? Well, it'd be worth a shot. The thing about a preheater is that it has a much larger surface area -- so instead of heating a small patch of board (which is what the hot-air gun is for) it'll bring the whole board (or a large section of it) up to a given temperature. The idea being that instead of having to bring every pin on the chip from 25C to 250C to melt the solder, you have to heat them from ~150C to 250C. Less energy required, faster time-to-melt, and as a result less damage to the PCB. Usually the solder joints will stay hot for a little longer too -- meaning you get a few extra seconds to vacuum-pick the part off of the board. >> I think your best bet would be a heated-vacuum tool. Basically a >> solder-sucker mated to a soldering iron... > > Alas, I have two of them. An older OK Industries tool and a new > BlackJack Solderwerks thingie from Circuit Specialists. Neither of them > is worth a crap from my experience. Well, that ties in with my experience with the Aoyue one (basically a clone of one of the Hakko workstation-type vacuum solder suckers). I would have thought the OKI one would have been pretty decent though... weren't they Metcal at one point? >> * Melt some fresh solder into the joint. Rosin flux paste or gel >> (usually used for SMD soldering) is also worth a try. > > I do that as a matter of course - it does help a lot. I suspect the reason that trick works is the flux -- you add extra flux, which helps to remove oxidised solder. The bit of extra solder improves the thermal coupling between soldering iron tip and joint. >> * 24swg tinned copper wire is GREAT for clearing solder out of through >> holes without damaging the plating. Enamelled copper might work too. > > This would be _after_ the component is removed, correct? If not, would > you mind elaborating a bit? Yes -- exactly right. You cut the pins off with flush-cutters -- these are the very small wire-nippers that you usually use to cut component pins flush to a solder joint, not the massive (by comparison) side-cutters usually used for cutting wire and cable. Cut the pins and remove as much of the connector frame as possible. I usually use a Dremel and a selection of cutting/grinding bits to go most of the way through, then finish off with hand tools -- needle files and maybe a junior hacksaw blade. Desolder the pins and pull them out, the holes will be filled with solder. Put some flux on the joint, and a drop of solder on your iron tip. Apply to the joint and melt in some fresh solder until you get a convex bubble on both sides. Use desolder wick to remove this -- sometimes you can push a little bit of the wick into the hole, which helps A LOT when wicking solder out of holes. If the hole won't clear after two or three tries at this, remove all the solder you can, then heat a piece of tinned copper wire alongside the joint, like this: wire | ## soldering iron tip | ## |## =============== board Push the wire through the hole while heating it. Again: fresh solder and flux are VERY useful. If it won't go through from one side, try the other side. When the wire goes through, start moving it up and down, and remove the soldering iron. The motion prevents the solder from sticking to the wire. You should now have a clean (or close enough) hole which you can push a new part lead through (and solder it). > I picked up a quantity of carbide-tipped PCB drills for just such a > purpose. Sort of a last resort, I'll grant you. I've got a box full of the things... only problem with carbide bits is that they break if you look at them funny. > Is the Kapton tape available from electronic suppliers? I'll take a look > at the DigiKey catalog forthwith. Any decent supplier should have it. Farnell stock the 3M stuff, but it's unbelievably expensive (?30 a roll). Their own-brand version ("Multicomp") is about a third of the price. I honestly can't remember if you get 10m or 25m on a roll... but it lasts ages. Just don't let the kids near it! Either the 12.7mm (1/2in) or 18mm wide tape is fine for most things. The thinner stuff (1/4in) is better if you're going to be taping down wires and nothing else... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 4 09:52:20 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 15:52:20 +0100 Subject: Keyboard foam discs (WAS: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: References: <891623.83655.qm@web121612.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D99DB24.50008@philpem.me.uk> On 04/04/11 13:02, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I just picked up a Sun 4 keyboard on eBay, since they apparently use the > same keytronics arrangement internally. Long run, I'm going to track > down the necessary tools to do fabricate from scratch. I wonder if it would be worthwhile making up some form of mass-production rig for these. Sounds like a fun introduction to mechanical design, assuming you could find a punch of the right size, and fabricate the necessary parts. A DC gearmotor would probably be enough to provide motion for cutting the discs of material, followed by a pick-and-place type rig to assemble the cut discs into a keyswitch pad... Hmmmmm.... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 09:58:29 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:58:29 -0400 Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: References: <46CEFFB298384EA7BAD4AC4A5E771881@dell8300> Message-ID: > Perhaps I am just weird, but I rarely damage circuit boards or components > when de-soldering. You do not know it, but you are. ICs, and to a lesser extent transistors, are made to be soldered *once*, and in a well controlled heated environment. Heating up an IC pin often will stress the die and introduce cracking in the silicon, as the chip expands in a non-uniform manner. Most of the time these microscopic cracks do not immediately kill the device, but they will reduce the expected lifetime of the chip. Basically, the reliability plummets due to these "latent failures" caused by thermal stress. If you need to desolder an IC for reuse, the best thing to do is to mimic the action of the machines that stuffed the boards in the first place. Heat up the entire device gently with a heat gun set on low, so the entire die expands more or less uniformly. Even just raising the chip temperature 30 degrees C over ten or twenty seconds will help immensely. And when the device is removed, let it cool naturally, -- Will From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 10:17:31 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 11:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: <5912A2002C8C47BABD82039EEDDC0FAB@dell8300> References: <181CB3BD2A2942238554F67D28C5CD40@massey.ac.nz> <5912A2002C8C47BABD82039EEDDC0FAB@dell8300> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 8:52 AM > Subject: Re: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! > > >> On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, terry stewart wrote: >> >>> I thought I was doing well with my two and a half Lisas. Check out this >>> stash! This photo was posted on the Goggle Lisa List group. >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/48978576 at N08/5581196468/ >> >> Is he a collector / restorer sort of person or a "black hole"? I've >> tripped over a number of folks with large quantities of classic gear who >> seem to playing the "..he who dies with the most units, wins" game. Drives >> me crazy when someone who doesn't touch the equipment, doesn't use it or >> display it (in fact, may not even know where it is), has 6-10 of something >> you have been desperately looking for and refuses to part with one for any >> amount of remuneration. Always struck me as sort of a power trip. > Does it matter if you have 10 units of a rare model you restore and keep in > your basement so nobody knows about them and they still end up recycled when > you die compared to just stacked and neglected till death? My reason for the comment about Black Holes. Never understood the point of stacking units in the storage shed. That said, let me be clear that I was not casting aspertions on the owner of those Lisas! I do not even know who the person involved is, much less understand their philosophical approach to classic systems. Better to make that clear before someone misreads the thread and gets offended! > I guess you never dealt with hoarders before, you don't offer money to them > you offer multiple big grungy junkers for the single item you want. > > Most people will either trade for something they want more, or take the cash > payout that will buy that more desirable item.The problems come when > something is rare but not that valuable but the owner thinks it is made of > gold and would only trade it for a mint 1971 Hemi Cuda convertible. The hoarders I know cannot generally even find the pieces in question, they just know they have it "somewhere" in a storage unit piled 8-ft. hight x 30 x 30... Even if they do know where it is, the negotiations become an exercise in pushing the envelope. In the case of one individual I've had dealings with, it's definitely an ego thing and power-trip. I've been much happier since I stopped engaging with them. I'd rather pay 2x as much on eBay than feel like I'm being played. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 10:25:39 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 11:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Perhaps I am just weird, but I rarely damage circuit boards or components > when de-soldering. I have a Hakko 808 de-soldering gun. Anecdotally, I suspect the Hakko unit has substantially better suction than my aging OK or the BlackJack. > The biggest things I have learned from de-soldering are: > > Add fresh solder where you are able to, I have notices as solder ages and > oxidizes it gets to be a nightmare to melt. Also fresh Flux can help some > times. > > Keep your de-soldering nozzle cleaned, I use the sponge on my Hakko 936 ESD > safe temp controlled solder station. > > Once you hear the de-soldering gun start to labor, you need to check for > obstructions, and make sure your receptacle is NOT full of solder and the > flux filter is not plugged up. I'm religous about all of that. > I am at the point on it where 95% of the time I can get IC sockets out of pc > boards without damaging them. And have yet to *knock on wood* lift a trace > on a board I was repairing, including the ATARI XF551 single sided boards > where the traces are held on with good wishes. That was my hope. I add solder, clean the tip, hold it in place until things are heated through and pull the trigger. It burrappps away and just about nothing happens. Except thermal shock to the board, tearing of adjacent traces, etc. Since most of the devices I work on use 60/40 leaded solder, what is the recommended tip temperature? How long do you leave it in place on, e.g. a through-hold IC lead before triggering the vacuum? May be that both these units are substandard. Getting desperate enough that the Hakko is starting look like a good investment. -- From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Apr 4 10:26:30 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 10:26:30 -0500 Subject: Oil fires (was Re: old US Telephone hybrid ('Network' block) ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:54 -0500 4/3/11, ard wrote: >And whatever you do, dn't put water on it if it catches fire. I've seen >this done as a demonstration, and it was spectacular (I am sure there's >something similar on youtube). Tony has spoken many words of wisdom, but few truer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-F82_OFrds -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 4 10:26:03 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 10:26:03 -0500 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201104041533.p34FXKF7017346@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:43 PM 4/3/2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: >Then you are cetainly not exhibiting the "..I have them all and you don't" syndrome. Sufferers of this malady never even open the boxes up (much less turn them on or fix them). But, they make sure you know that they have all this stuff - somewhere... If they could only find it. Aldo Leopold said "The first prerequisite of intelligent tinkering is to save all the pieces." When anyone stumbles on a hoarded pile of X, it's because someone in the past decided to save a pile of X. Yes, sometimes the hoarder dies and all the material goes to the recycler. Sometimes we are notified and a rescue happens. - John From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 4 14:09:34 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:09:34 -0400 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration References: Message-ID: <9D96C19F787646BD9D30E316CC671ABC@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 19:05:17 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration > > Use a nice big Soldapullt? Cleans the holes for me, particularly if > you hold the PCB in a board vise and use the Soldapullt on one side, > while apply heat (and a little solder) to the other side. Push the > button and the hole is clean as a whistle. > > Little Soldapullts are next to worthless. Get the big one (DS017 or > its variant versions). > > I do use solder wick, but mostly for soldering SMT ICs. > > --Chuck ----- Reply: A sharp round wooden toothpick often works well for me. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 4 14:34:17 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:34:17 -0400 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 11:17:31 -0400 (EDT) > From: Steven Hirsch > Subject: Re: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! > My reason for the comment about Black Holes. Never understood the point > of stacking units in the storage shed. > ----- Reply: It's easy to judge and complain about "hoarders", but there's another perspective: Considering today's high shipping costs it's pretty hard to find anyone willing to pay to ship anything substantial (never mind a little extra to make it worth while) unless it's rare and/or valuable, so you either scrap it or "stack it in the storage shed" in hopes of some day finding someone local or willing to pay the big bucks. I've had to scrap close to a dozen Cromemco boxes and dozens of terminals and old PC/XT/ATs and clones over the years; fortunately I found a local teacher who took a skid full of old data books or they would have gone to landfill as well. Personally I'd love to regain the space that this junk takes up... mike From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 4 14:40:44 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:40:44 -0700 Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <4D99C0A8.5010509@neurotica.com> References: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D99C0A8.5010509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 5:59 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format > printer on the road > > > Yes, the architecture/engineering (in the "we make buildings" > context) world uses those a lot. The big inkjets replaced pen plotters > a long time ago, but these guys still call them "plotters" even though > that's not what they are. Yet another case of an industry using tools > that they don't understand, but whatever. I love using them for > schematics. > > The newer models fetch big bucks (thousands, sometimes more) on the > used market if they work. The older ones typically go for hundreds. > Even parts units typically fetch $100+, so finding one in any condition > for free (or nearly so) is a good score. > A few years ago I got a Calcomp 1043GT pen plotter from a guy who had paid $50 for it at a garage sale, then realized it wouldn't work with anything he had. He finally got tired of it sitting in his basement and offered it to me - I bought him a beer. :-) The most modern driver I ever found for it was for Windows 95. There is a ROM cartridge that one can plug in that will teach it to speak (ISTR) PCL, but I've never found one - anyone got one? So it talks a proprietary protocol that's quite obscure. I may try to reverse-engineer it one of these days if I'm ever really really bored.... But it draws really nice (and really big) pictures, even if I do have to drive it with a creaky old version of TurboCAD that runs on Win95. -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 4 14:44:11 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:44:11 -0700 Subject: Looking for AT case in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <8CDC0D2DC0755D4-17F8-188D0@Webmail-m119.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDC0D2DC0755D4-17F8-188D0@Webmail-m119.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tiggerlasv at aim.com > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 4:31 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Looking for AT case in Seattle area > > > > Alas, I got rid of the last AT-ish style case that I had, before I > moved up to Seattle. > > Have you checked at the RE-PC store in Seattle as well? > I tend to forget about that one, as Tukwila is much closer to me. > Plus, it saddens me to see the PDP-11/23 system sitting there powered > down, as a museum piece. > *Sigh* > \ > It never hurts to check out Goodwill, either. > > I recall spying a desktop (several months ago) that was sporting an > "AT" keyboard connector, > at the store on the hill in Renton across from Little Peking. . . . so > I know that they're out there. . . > > I had a bunch of these cases sitting in my storage locker (you know, the one that was a 'temporary' solution but I've had for almost two years now) and I was able to help Josh out - who returned the favor with an Ethernet adapter for my Mac IIsi, the one running A/UX. :-) -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 12:51:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:51:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <462903.67129.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 1, 11 12:25:55 pm Message-ID: > > at least gratifying to see that there are as many people speaking in > "my defense" as there are speaking out against that horrid little > comment I made (and you can take the last part of this sentence as as > big a joke as the original post). It would definitely be in bad taste to > indicate which are which, they speak for themselves, rather abundantly. > > I will say nothing other then this - those that are so fast to whine > over a silly little comment don't belong in dialogues w/mature adults. > This is an odd list. If you commont adversely on practices which you cvonsider are detrimental to the resoration, use, preservation, etc of classic computers (for example, board swwapping, clusless behaviour at some museums, not helping others by releasing source cose (when you are able to do so), etc), you get flamed. When you make a personal comment on something that has nothign to do with the list, then it's 'just kidding' Since you have pbulically statesd that you don't like dealing with 'heathen atheists', I will assume that you don't want techncial advioce from heathen agnostics eitehr. I will therefore refrain from offering any. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 13:35:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 19:35:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 3, 11 05:26:16 pm Message-ID: > > I wouild recommend a temperature controlelr soldering iron a little > > hotter than normal (I use a #8 tip in my Weller TCP). A fine tip too. I > > also find that dismantling the solder sucker and putting a smear of > > vaseline (petroleum jelly) on the washer helps a lot. As I mentioend in > > an earlier posting, a new, find nozzle on the sodler sucker helps a lot. > > That's the same iron I use. Will try the trick with the jelly on the The Weller TCP is very commonly used by serious enthuiasts, university labs, small companies, etc over here. I find the stnadard #7 tip is colder than I would like. I fit a #8 tip and find it much easier to use. > piston ring - good idea. I find it helps a lot. Put a smear on the O-ring of the end cap if you have one in your solder sucker, to imporve the seal there. > > > I would recomend taking the keyboard apart anyway and inspecting these > > disks. You can then see if any are likely to be 'active'. > > Incredibly enough, the foam disks are just fine. None of them have Sometiems they are :-) Is the silvering OK. The visible (towards the PCB) side of the disk assembly should look metalic, there's a conductinve layer on the top side of that plastic disk (it increases the capacitance between the PCB tracks when you press the key). I've sene keyboards where the foam looks fine, but he silvering has vanaished. Obviously then the keys don't work. > decayed at all. Even with the circuit board lifted clear of the plungers, > it's still complaining about no keyboard attached. Continuity between the > keyboard and the stereo phone plug is fine. I believe the edge connector > between the chassis and the motherboard is shot. Fortunately, all the > interconnects between the CRT housing and the motherboard connector are > ribbon cables, so it's at least feasible to cut the connector off and > crimp a new one on. If you're unlucky the corrosion will have crept along the wires inside the insulation and you;'ll have open-circuits in the cable? Hos is the cable attached at the other end? Is it possible to replave the cable and connector? > I have some olde-fashioned WD40 that doesn't gum up at all. Just lubed I am amazed... Be warned tha the 'gumming up' is not instant, it will occur after days/weeks in my experience. > and cleaned the mechanism. The drive now loads slick as anything and > spins for a second or two afterwards. I think that's autonomic behavior > from the drive PCB itself. The system doesn't seem to recognize that a Yes, I thimnk it is. I think this means the disk-inmseted sensort is working, and that you;re using DD (not HD) disks. The latter have a hole in just the 'right' place to avoid tripping the disk inserted sensor. > drive is attached, providing more ammunition for my theory that the > motherboard connector is shot. It's certianly worth checking... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 13:40:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 19:40:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: probably OT, In-Reply-To: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 3, 11 05:07:44 pm Message-ID: > > Can't say anything other then it's in my car. It'll be the second > "plotter" I've picked up for little or nothing (I was actually a good 10 > miles from "ground zero" before I realized this thing is just a big ink > jet printer, not a plotter). Anyway it should be good for making large > format schematics and whatnot. Doesn't everybody love those? > > Anyone w/docs or drivers please contact me. Perhaps offlist. Do you have the model name/number? I assuime it's too modern for there to be anything useful on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 13:44:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 19:44:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D98C4ED.26408.24B58E6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 3, 11 07:05:17 pm Message-ID: > Use a nice big Soldapullt? Cleans the holes for me, particularly if > you hold the PCB in a board vise and use the Soldapullt on one side, > while apply heat (and a little solder) to the other side. Push the > button and the hole is clean as a whistle. Yes, I do that too. I upgraded an HP Integral RAM board from 512K to 1M. This involved adding 16 more 41256 ICs + decoupling capacitors. Of coruse the original board was wave-soldered at the factory so all the holes were blocked. I hat to clean them all out by this method. > > Little Soldapullts are next to worthless. Get the big one (DS017 or > its variant versions). > > I do use solder wick, but mostly for soldering SMT ICs. Me too. The fine stuff is very useful for cleaning up accidental bridges between the pins on an SMD device. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 13:23:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 19:23:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <105283.21343.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Apr 3, 11 01:11:36 pm Message-ID: > > The metal eject mechanism comes off > > easily (four screws=20 > > > > from underneath, one jesus clip on the eject > > motor), so you can easily=20 > > > > WD40 it to dissolve the old grease. > > > > I wouldn't put 'Wanton Destruction 40' anywhere near the > > floppy drive (or > > any other aprt of a classic computer). > You don't use the WD40 as a lubricant. You use it as a solvent, on the I never suggested you would use WD40 as a lubricant. WD40, at least the stuff we get over here (and I assume it's the same world-wide) is a mixture of vartious hydrocarbons. If you apply it to something, the lighter ones soon evaporate, leaving the heavier ones behind, and these leave a waxy coating on . For the origianl intended applciation of Water Displacement, this is clearly a good thing. It is not a good thing when it's used on a small mechanism. > disassembled eject mechanism to dissolve the old grease. Then you rinse > it out with isopropyl alcohol. The eject mechanism can be completely Yes, you probably can remove the remnants of the WD40 with propan-2-ol, but why apply somethjing in the first place that is going to put crud on the mechansims that you then have to remove. Propan-2-ol applied first on its own will shift the origianl grease. > removed from the drive - but not totally > disassembled, as some parts are riveted together. You can, however, There are at least 2 versions of the eject mechanism used on the 'standard' (push-button eject) drive. The older one thast I've seen is assmebled with E-circlips and will come almost toally apart. The later one is riveted and won't. I have no idea if all Lisa drives (with the eject motor) are riveted or not, they might well be. Having cleaned and repaired many, many, of these deives, I have foudn the best thing to do is to take it apart as far as you can. If you have a riveted one, unhook the return springs (a spring hook tool is very useful here), apply the solvent between the levers and the side plate, and work them back and forth by hand. You will see the grease coming out, wipe it off, and keep on moving the parts. In the end it will free up. Be careful when taking it apart. THere are some small washers, bushes, spacers, etc in there. Oftnn they are stuck in place by the old grease and you may not realise they are sparate parts until you apply the solvent and they fall off and find a hidden corner of the workshop. > WD40 is a terrible lubricant, but it's a fantastic (and easy to get) > solvent. It irritates me that many of the better, safer (for machinery [1]) solvents are hard to get, if nto impossible, but WD40 is sold everywhere. Alas I have seen what the misuse of this stuff can do to precision mechanisms. [1] I couldn't care what harm they might do to me. There amy many more hackers than classic computers, etc in the world... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 13:26:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 19:26:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: <340419.4309.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Apr 3, 11 01:25:09 pm Message-ID: > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > Some of us have been in the garage full of PDP-10s. > > > > True... but isn't that, what, like two computers? You beat me to it :-) > > I have a massive stack of SparcStations (and a similar pile-o-XT's), > but as neither are rare or desirable, it isn't nearly as impressive. My pile of XT-shaped boxes may be a little rarer. It's a mixture of 5150s (als none with the 16K-64K planar), 5160s and 5161s. The last I am told is slightly harder to fidn than the rest. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 14:43:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 20:43:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 4, 11 10:58:29 am Message-ID: > > > Perhaps I am just weird, but I rarely damage circuit boards or components > > when de-soldering. > > You do not know it, but you are. > > ICs, and to a lesser extent transistors, are made to be soldered > *once*, and in a well controlled heated environment. Heating up an IC > pin often will stress the die and introduce cracking in the silicon, > as the chip expands in a non-uniform manner. Most of the time these > microscopic cracks do not immediately kill the device, but they will > reduce the expected lifetime of the chip. Basically, the reliability > plummets due to these "latent failures" caused by thermal stress. You've made simialr comments before, and problably you are technically correct. If tyhis was something that was safety critical (military, mediacl, etc), then differnet rules would apply. However, apoplying it to normal elecrtornci stuff and/or classic computers sounds more like either an IC manufacturer tryint to sell more components, or an equipment manufactueer giving yet another bogus reason not to supply a proper service manual (yes, I have heard that one). Put it this way... I've desoldered hundreds, maybe thousands of ICs in my lifetime. Most of the itme I don't resodler them, I do put in a turned-pin socket (yes, Iknow sockets are supposed to reduce relaibility, I've never had problems with turned-pin ones). Yes, some of the ICs I've removed have later failed. So have ICs I've not been anywhere near. Statisitcally, I can't see a significant difference between them. It's certainly not the case that every IC I've desodlered has fialed within 5 years or anything like that. And yes, Iv'e deosldered and re-used SMD parts (SOICs, PQFPs, etc) with no problems. They don;t seen unreliable Plketny of service manuals (at least when they;re not boardswapper guides) suggest desoldring parets for testing. I don't think any tell you never to reuse said parts. As I said, if a life depends on it, then different rules apply. For classic computers, I'd not worry about it at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 14:30:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 20:30:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Apr 4, 11 02:53:06 am Message-ID: > > Perhaps I am just weird, but I rarely damage circuit boards or components > when de-soldering. I have a Hakko 808 de-soldering gun. I raarely damage things either, nd I just use a normal soldering iron and solder sucker. I think the trick is knowing how much force you cna apply to the component before you risk lifting traces. If it won't come out, dont forct it, but resolder and desolder it again. > > The biggest things I have learned from de-soldering are: > > Add fresh solder where you are able to, I have notices as solder ages and > oxidizes it gets to be a nightmare to melt. Also fresh Flux can help some > times. Yes. Puttign a little new solder on helps a lot. Also, if a pin doens;'t desolder fully the first time, it is a waste of time to try to melt the remianing dolder and such it out. It won't coem (there will be sufficient air flow in the clear part that the remining solder will not be moved at all). Resodler the connection and try again. Normally on ther second attempt, it'll come clear. If you are using a nromal soldering iron and solder sucker, make sure the iron is powerful enough and hot enough. You will not desodlerpars from multi-layrer PCBs (with intenral power and ground palnes) wiht a non-temperature-controller iron. > That isn't to say I haven't pulled components from boards and then been > amazed at the crap that some manufacturers put into their products. I'd > rather pay 5-10$ more and have a manufacturer use quality components :( So would I, (and I'd pay a lot more to get it), but unfortunately the accountants that run th industry don't see it that way. They'd rather get a little extra profit from em now, even if I'll never buy their crap again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 14:47:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 20:47:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 4, 11 11:25:39 am Message-ID: > Since most of the devices I work on use 60/40 leaded solder, what is the > recommended tip temperature? How long do you leave it in place on, e.g. a I use 60/40 lead/tin solder for just about everything, and I find a #8 tip in my Weller TCP to be fine for sodlerign and desoldering. That's 800 fahrenheit or 427 celsius. I don't beleive the temperature control of said iron is all that accurate, but that iwll give you some idea. > through-hold IC lead before triggering the vacuum? Using the iron and solder sucker, I normally hold the iron on for 1-2s bnefore usign the sucker. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 14:33:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 20:33:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 4, 11 07:58:49 am Message-ID: > A properly designed multi-layer board should be using thermal reliefs > around the Gnd and +V pins, but I'm not sure how much that is done in > consumer equipment. Its a cross-shaped structure intended to provide > thermal resistance between the via and the body of the internal plane. Theyr'e certianly used in the older HP stuff I spend a lot of time repairing (you can see the cross structure aroudn the pin if you hold the PCB up to a storng light source), but even so I do find the pins connected to the power/grounds planes take a little more effort to desolder than the other. -tony From mgemeny at pgcps.org Mon Apr 4 15:16:32 2011 From: mgemeny at pgcps.org (Michael Gemeny) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 16:16:32 -0400 Subject: A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. Message-ID: A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. Are their any examples of this in use now? If so would it be possible to get a sample of a short file being sent and also get a packet capture of the data on the TCP/IP side as that file is being sent. A write up of the implementation would be great if anyone has that, but that may be asking too much. Thanks in advance. Mike Gemeny From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 15:39:44 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 16:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> decayed at all. Even with the circuit board lifted clear of the plungers, >> it's still complaining about no keyboard attached. Continuity between the >> keyboard and the stereo phone plug is fine. I believe the edge connector >> between the chassis and the motherboard is shot. Fortunately, all the >> interconnects between the CRT housing and the motherboard connector are >> ribbon cables, so it's at least feasible to cut the connector off and >> crimp a new one on. > > If you're unlucky the corrosion will have crept along the wires inside > the insulation and you;'ll have open-circuits in the cable? Hos is the > cable attached at the other end? Is it possible to replave the cable and > connector? Possible, but a huge pain. I can cut enough off to get past any corrosion - will strip a few of the clippings at random to double-check. -- From jws at jwsss.com Mon Apr 4 15:43:14 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 13:43:14 -0700 Subject: A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9A2D62.7040404@jwsss.com> I will check with a friend, but my recollection is that you won't find anything but bridge devices relaying bisync traffic over tcp/ip. I don't think there is an IBM supported method to do this. On the Hercules group, several people have gotten an emulation of a 2701 or 2703 (you'd have to check me) which can do bisync going. I don't know how they couple it to anything as yet. You might look for that under the yahoo hercules groups. Jim On 4/4/2011 1:16 PM, Michael Gemeny wrote: > A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. > > > > Are their any examples of this in use now? > > > > If so would it be possible to get a sample of a short file being sent and > also get a packet capture of the data on the TCP/IP side as that file is > being sent. > > > > A write up of the implementation would be great if anyone has that, but that > may be asking too much. > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Mike Gemeny > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 4 15:50:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 14:50:53 -0600 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <93397.83501.qm at web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > Speaking of elusive... would also love to find a Tektronix 4010, but... I've actually found 4010s more readily than I have found VT52s. Been looking for a number of years and still haven't come across a VT52 at an affordable price. I've found a number of 4010/4014s at affordable prices. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 4 15:52:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 14:52:36 -0600 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <007a01cbf248$b9db1160$2d913420$@ntlworld.com> References: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <007a01cbf248$b9db1160$2d913420$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: In article <007a01cbf248$b9db1160$2d913420$@ntlworld.com>, "Rob Jarratt" writes: > Surprised you suggest that VT100s are still relatively easily found. How > common are they in the US? I have not been able to find one here in the UK > and I don't recall seeing many in the US. I only look on eBay though, am I > looking in the wrong places? VT100s are getting harder to find, but they still show up on ebay with regularity. Lately they've all been offered sans keyboard and in fairly poor cosmetic condition, though. This is another sign that most of the good condition units have already been scrapped. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 4 15:55:06 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 14:55:06 -0600 Subject: Speaking of Lisas...this guy has a garageful! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "MikeS" writes: > Considering today's high shipping costs it's pretty hard to find anyone > willing to pay to ship anything substantial (never mind a little extra to > make it worth while) [...] For the record: I'm generally willing when it comes to terminals, particularly the older or more interesting ones. I generally lose interest by the time terminals all start to look like a WYSE-55, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 16:17:38 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 17:17:38 -0400 Subject: A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Michael Gemeny wrote: > A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. > > Are their any examples of this in use now? In commercial use? Probably. 2780/3780 was blessed for moving EDI traffic a long time ago (c. 1990) - originally, it was dial-up sync modems, but when the Internet became the dominant transport layer, folks just bundled up the original protocol in TCP wrappers. > A write up of the implementation would be great if anyone has that, but that > may be asking too much. Are you trying to learn more about the original 2780/3780 bisync protocol or specifically about how it's encapsulated for transport via TCP? I ask because I used to manufacture bisync-emulating devices (HASP and 3780) and have a bit of experience at the low level. I have not worked with it since modems fell out of favor, so I have nothing to share about encapsulation. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 16:26:50 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 17:26:50 -0400 Subject: Surplus source for MAN8940 common-cathode 0.8" 7-segment displays? Message-ID: Hi, All, An old project bubbled up to the surface this weekend - I'm looking for a handful of MAN8940 displays (or a modern equivalent like the Lumex LDS-C8024) to refurbish an old display that works but is dim. I'm flinching at the >$2 each price at Mouser (and Digikey only sells the item by the case-load of ~2000). Does anyone know of a surplus place that has larger sizes of 7-segment displays? For close to $50 in LEDs and postage, I'll just leave the dim ones in place. If I can find a source at surplus prices, I'm more likely to replace them. I found the exact part via one surplus page, but I just got my first "undeliverable: will re-try for two days" bounce, so I'm expecting that I won't be able to contact that seller in the end. These are for a personal project, not a work project, so I'm happy to buy from an individual - doesn't have to be a "legitimate" company. Anyone know of oddball places to get oddball LEDs? Thanks, -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 4 16:29:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 14:29:23 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <4D98C4ED.26408.24B58E6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 3, 11 07:05:17 pm, Message-ID: <4D99D5C3.28831.11F73B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Apr 2011 at 19:44, Tony Duell wrote: > Me too. The fine stuff is very useful for cleaning up accidental > bridges between the pins on an SMD device. And the next most useful thing for me at least, is a good inspection stereomicroscope. Tiny bridges between the leads of a LQFN package with 0.5 mm spacing are far beyond a simple magnifier for me. With a microscope, they look huge. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 16:31:50 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 22:31:50 +0100 Subject: JPL control room, 1979 - anyone want to do some systems-spotting? Message-ID: The 6th episode of Carl Sagan's /Cosmos/ has some loving shots of the main computer room at JPL at the end of the 1970s. It's 38min into this episode: http://www.youtube.com/user/TheScienceFoundation#p/u/27/y7Qs3iXqgzs ... and lasts a good 2-3min. There's a bit more later, but then, it's Cosmos, the whole thing is extremely well-worth watching. I'd be very interested if anyone could ID the systems, drives, terminals and so on shown, though! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mgemeny at pgcps.org Mon Apr 4 16:50:14 2011 From: mgemeny at pgcps.org (Michael Gemeny) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 17:50:14 -0400 Subject: A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ethan, Over in the Yahoo group for the HP2000, some questions have been raised about implementing this feature of the OS under simulation (SIMH) to connect multiple simulated systems together. If we were to simulate the sync interface card with a TCP connection standing in for the modems, it would be nice to make it compatible with other TCP simulations of 2780/3780, if any should exist. The HP2000 (Access) was used as an interactive front end for batch systems such as IBM and CDC in addition to native HP2000 to HP2000 communications, all using 2780/3780 and sometimes HASP too. Thanks for asking, Mike On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Michael Gemeny wrote: > > A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. > > > > Are their any examples of this in use now? > > In commercial use? Probably. 2780/3780 was blessed for moving EDI > traffic a long time ago (c. 1990) - originally, it was dial-up sync > modems, but when the Internet became the dominant transport layer, > folks just bundled up the original protocol in TCP wrappers. > > > A write up of the implementation would be great if anyone has that, but > that > > may be asking too much. > > Are you trying to learn more about the original 2780/3780 bisync > protocol or specifically about how it's encapsulated for transport via > TCP? > > I ask because I used to manufacture bisync-emulating devices (HASP and > 3780) and have a bit of experience at the low level. I have not > worked with it since modems fell out of favor, so I have nothing to > share about encapsulation. > > -ethan > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 4 16:37:54 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 16:37:54 -0500 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D99D5C3.28831.11F73B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D98C4ED.26408.24B58E6@cclist.sydex.com> <4D99D5C3.28831.11F73B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201104042151.p34LpYW1036283@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:29 PM 4/4/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >And the next most useful thing for me at least, is a good inspection >stereomicroscope. I've got a full Zeiss surgical stereo scope, 6x to 40x, illuminated and filtered, on the articulated arm and roll-around stand. - John From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Apr 4 16:57:42 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 17:57:42 -0400 Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201104041757.43073.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 April 2011 08:07:44 pm Chris M wrote: > Can't say anything other then it's in my car. It'll be the second "plotter" I've picked up for little or nothing (I was actually a good 10 miles from "ground zero" before I realized this thing is just a big ink jet printer, not a plotter). Anyway it should be good for making large format schematics and whatnot. Doesn't everybody love those? > Anyone w/docs or drivers please contact me. Perhaps offlist. I worked on one of those a while back, not terribly successfully. Does that thing use a big wide roll of paper that hangs on the back? I might have service data, depending on the exact model... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spedraja at ono.com Mon Apr 4 17:05:14 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 00:05:14 +0200 Subject: A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had the same idea to simulate the original Arpanet IMPs. The simulation and interconnection of these would be relatively easy, but the problem was in the simulation of the IMP interfaces to the simulated systems and teh reconstruction of the NCP in them. This other proposal appears to be more affordable and, of course, with possibilities of success. Sergio 2011/4/4 Michael Gemeny > Ethan, > > > > Over in the Yahoo group for the HP2000, some questions have been raised > about implementing this feature of the OS under simulation (SIMH) to > connect > multiple simulated systems together. > > > > If we were to simulate the sync interface card with a TCP connection > standing in for the modems, it would be nice to make it compatible with > other TCP simulations of 2780/3780, if any should exist. > > > > The HP2000 (Access) was used as an interactive front end for batch systems > such as IBM and CDC in addition to native HP2000 to HP2000 communications, > all using 2780/3780 and sometimes HASP too. > > > > Thanks for asking, > > Mike > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Michael Gemeny > wrote: > > > A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under > simulation. > > > > > > Are their any examples of this in use now? > > > > In commercial use? Probably. 2780/3780 was blessed for moving EDI > > traffic a long time ago (c. 1990) - originally, it was dial-up sync > > modems, but when the Internet became the dominant transport layer, > > folks just bundled up the original protocol in TCP wrappers. > > > > > A write up of the implementation would be great if anyone has that, but > > that > > > may be asking too much. > > > > Are you trying to learn more about the original 2780/3780 bisync > > protocol or specifically about how it's encapsulated for transport via > > TCP? > > > > I ask because I used to manufacture bisync-emulating devices (HASP and > > 3780) and have a bit of experience at the low level. I have not > > worked with it since modems fell out of favor, so I have nothing to > > share about encapsulation. > > > > -ethan > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 4 17:10:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 15:10:02 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <201104042151.p34LpYW1036283@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D98C4ED.26408.24B58E6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D99D5C3.28831.11F73B5@cclist.sydex.com>, <201104042151.p34LpYW1036283@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D99DF4A.2557.144A84E@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Apr 2011 at 16:37, John Foust wrote: > I've got a full Zeiss surgical stereo scope, 6x to 40x, illuminated > and filtered, on the articulated arm and roll-around stand. I'm envious. I find that my B&L Stereozoom 4 does just fine. The funny thing is that I can remember using that model scope as a dissecting microscope when I was still in school--a very long time ago. That's when the US built things to last. I re-did the spot illumination on mine by taking the head from a free 9-LED flashlight and hooking it to an old cellphone charger. Fits perfectly on the stand. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 4 17:20:50 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Keyboard foam discs (WAS: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: <4D99DB24.50008@philpem.me.uk> References: <891623.83655.qm@web121612.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D99DB24.50008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20110404151915.A9631@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I wonder if it would be worthwhile making up some form of > mass-production rig for these. > Sounds like a fun introduction to mechanical design, assuming you could > find a punch of the right size, What size? A woodworking "plug cutter" or a paperdrill hollow bit should do. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 4 17:21:38 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 23:21:38 +0100 Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <010901cbf316$ac115c00$04341400$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Thompson > Sent: 03 April 2011 22:41 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions > > >From: joe heck I have a 3100 model 80 with a > >failing disk drive. The two drives in it now are Seagate ST15150N (I > believe). I have a couple of questions: > >Are there NEW drives out there that will work with this VAX? > >What do I need to do to make a drive format/work? > > Joe, I have quite a few small SCSI drives in my collection, but no ST15150N > drive. What capacity do you need? > > -- > Michael Thompson Can someone remind me what the formula is for working out whether a disk is small enough for the older MicroVAX 3100s? I seem to remember it is an absolute number of 512-byte blocks. I know it is about 1GB, but I am pretty sure it can be slightly over, but I am never sure exactly how much you can go over. I am always on the look out for disks small enough for these machines. Regards Rob From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Apr 4 17:28:04 2011 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 15:28:04 -0700 Subject: JPL control room, 1979 - anyone want to do some systems-spotting? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:31 PM +0100 4/4/11, Liam Proven wrote: >The 6th episode of Carl Sagan's /Cosmos/ has some loving shots of the >main computer room at JPL at the end of the 1970s. It's 38min into >this episode: >http://www.youtube.com/user/TheScienceFoundation#p/u/27/y7Qs3iXqgzs >... and lasts a good 2-3min. There's a bit more later, but then, it's >Cosmos, the whole thing is extremely well-worth watching. > >I'd be very interested if anyone could ID the systems, drives, >terminals and so on shown, though! In fact I was working as a software engineer in the Voyager Software System Engineering office at the time. At that point, Voyager was still a very large project, with many teams scattered throughout the Lab. The Space Flight Operations Facility (later renamed Center) had three floors of computers of interest for this discussion. - One floor used Modcomp computers to relay and decommutate the data coming from the tracking stations, the Deep Space Network (DSN). - Another floor was all IBM 360s; these were used for near real time analysis of engineering (spacecraft health and instrument) data. One system was prime, another was backup, a third was standby and could be used by the developers (as long as one of the other two didn't crash). My first job at JPL (1977) was in the Ground Data Systems group programming these computers. - A third floor was all Univac 1108 (at the time of Sagan's video; these were later upgraded to 1100/81). These were used for non-real time analysis of both science and engineering data. In 1979, when the referenced video takes place?, I was using these remotely from the VGR SSE office. Another group, entirely independent of the flight project (termed "multi-mission"), was responsible for taking imaging data and turning it into products. The Image Processing Lab (IPL) performed this function in another building entirely. I don't know what computers they used. By 1981 I had moved into a multi-mission group creating computer-generated animations, the Computer Graphics Lab (CGL). Jim Blinn was the primary animator/engineer. Many of his animations were used by Sagan. When I came to the group, all animations were done on PDP-11/55 computers (we had a pair, IIRC). Eventually we moved over to the VAX line. All very interesting work. John From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 17:43:41 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa: Some progress! Message-ID: Woot! Some serious progress. In no particular order: - Non-functional keyboard was traced to a (surprise) badly corroded stereo phone jack. What threw me was that plugging in a straight Switchcraft plug for continuity checking showed everything ending up where it should. After I took off the side of the unit, I discovered that the right-angle molded plug on the keyboard cable does not get inserted far enough to make a reliable connection. This looks iffy even at best, but I'll start by replacing the jack. By removing the daughterboard that carries it and plugging the keyboard into it directly, the computer sees it. That's the good news. The bad news is that (also surprise!) there are a lot of dead keys. So perhaps I spoke too soon about it being intact. I have a Sun 4 keyboard on the way and will pick that for parts to get going quickly. - Non-functional diskette drive was pilot error, but I don't think it was on my part. There are two 20-pin ribbon cables leading into the drive cage and the wrong one was plugged into the Lisa Lite controller board. Hopefully that did not damage anything - it was like that when I opened the unit! Plugged the correct cable in and it now tries to boot the floppy. I inserted the Lisa Test 3.0 disk 1 and it chugs away for a bit before throwing a disk read error. Will try writing another copy on my mac, since this one may have been damaged while working on the loading mechanism. I'm very surprised that so much appears operational given the horrible state it arrived in. A testament to Apple's construction quality, for sure. Steve -- From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 18:28:27 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 16:28:27 -0700 Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions In-Reply-To: <010901cbf316$ac115c00$04341400$@ntlworld.com> References: <010901cbf316$ac115c00$04341400$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Can someone remind me what the formula is for working out whether a disk is > small enough for the older MicroVAX 3100s? I seem to remember it is an > absolute number of 512-byte blocks. I know it is about 1GB, but I am pretty > sure it can be slightly over, but I am never sure exactly how much you can > go over. I am always on the look out for disks small enough for these > machines. > If the restriction comes from the host only using SCSI Read(6) commands then the limit is a 21-bit Logical Block Address (LBA) field. SCSI Read(10), Read(12), and Read(16) have larger LBA fields. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI_Read_Commands With a 21-bit LBA the host can access 2,097,152 blocks. If those blocks are 512 bytes each that works out to a total of 1,073,741,824 bytes. -Glen From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Apr 4 18:47:17 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 16:47:17 -0700 Subject: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D99C498.9080306@compsys.to> References: <4D99C498.9080306@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4D9A5885.1010303@mindspring.com> Didn't you mean to send this last Friday? Actually I'd be more interested in Y1K support since I am using an 11/34 as the navigational computer in my time machine, and it only goes back in time. :-) On 4/4/2011 6:16 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Is there any interest in extending any of the PDP-11 operating systems > so that they are able to support dates at least until 3000? While my > personal interest lies with RT-11, I am curious if anyone has looked > at the requirements for any of the other PDP-11 operating systems > to determine what is required for Y3K date support? In addition, > are the resources (technical knowledge, files to make the required > changes and hardware to support the development) available? > > For RT-11, the resources are available and I suggest a review of > the required software changes by anyone who has the technical > background to evaluate any proposals for Y3K implementation. > > If other individuals who are interested in RSX-11, RSTS/E and > TSX-Plus are motivated to support Y3K implementation for > these OSs, I would be interested in providing support for > any solutions required to exchange dates between all PDP-11 > operating systems. > > I am not sure if there is any commercial impact to producing > Y3K code for PDP-11 OSs. However, it is possible that > any current commercial use MIGHT be more likely if Y3K > support is available. On the other hand, it is almost certain > that any Y3K projects for all PDP-11 OSs must be done > without any commercial support at this time. Consequently, > as with all DECUS contributions, any actual code changes > would become available to everyone. If this enhances the > commercial value of the PDP-11 OSs, then it should be a > positive development. > > Responses and suggestions are appreciated. > > If, as I have noted in the past there is no response, then at > some point when it seems worthwhile, I shall at least present > the technical details of what is required to implement Y3K for > RT-11. There may also be details of other enhancements along > with RT-11 bug fixes. If anyone has a wish list for RT-11 or > knows of any RT-11 bugs which need fixing, I would very much > appreciate the help. > > Jerome Fine > From feedle at feedle.net Mon Apr 4 18:55:31 2011 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle at feedle.net) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 16:55:31 -0700 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27a04a1574c1b8104e83302066074702.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> > Since you have pbulically statesd that you don't like dealing with > 'heathen atheists', I will assume that you don't want techncial advioce > from heathen agnostics eitehr. I will therefore refrain from offering any. As somebody who both identifies as one of those two, I'm wondering exactly how you can be both.. unless you're referring to "heathen" as "one who lives upon the heath" (ie. a "country-dweller"). However, most of my friends who identify as "heathen" are certainly NOT athiests, and most of the athiests I've known would distance themselves (religiously) from modern Neopagan heathens. Oh, wait. I'm assuming the "original poster" wasn't an ignorant idiot. My bad. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 4 18:56:04 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 16:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D9A5885.1010303@mindspring.com> References: <4D99C498.9080306@compsys.to> <4D9A5885.1010303@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20110404165351.R9631@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Don North wrote: > Didn't you mean to send this last Friday? > Actually I'd be more interested in Y1K support since I am using > an 11/34 as the navigational computer in my time machine, and it > only goes back in time. Of course. It's all abandonware, because there's no future in time travel. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 4 18:49:20 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 18:49:20 -0500 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D99DF4A.2557.144A84E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D98C4ED.26408.24B58E6@cclist.sydex.com> <4D99D5C3.28831.11F73B5@cclist.sydex.com> <201104042151.p34LpYW1036283@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D99DF4A.2557.144A84E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201104042359.p34NxYXa040295@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 05:10 PM 4/4/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 4 Apr 2011 at 16:37, John Foust wrote: > >> I've got a full Zeiss surgical stereo scope, 6x to 40x, illuminated >> and filtered, on the articulated arm and roll-around stand. > >I'm envious. Oh yeah. I paid all of $100 for it, too. - John From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 4 19:26:20 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:26:20 +1200 Subject: Some progress! References: Message-ID: Good progress Steve, Having just worked on Lisas, I enjoy reading the updates. One other common problem with this type of disk drive is that the small pad on the opposite side of disk to the read/write head is either missing or is damaged. Worth checking for if you haven't already done so. Terry (Tez) > I inserted the Lisa Test 3.0 disk 1 and it chugs away for a bit before > throwing a disk read error. Will try writing another copy on my mac, > since this one may have been damaged while working on the loading > mechanism. > > I'm very surprised that so much appears operational given the horrible > state it arrived in. A testament to Apple's construction quality, for > sure. > > Steve > > > -- > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 19:30:55 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 20:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? Message-ID: Is List Test 3.0 supposed to work on an unmodified Lisa 2? I'm not quite sure what's going on. It starts to load and I can watch the head stepping around. Then after about 45 seconds it just stops with an hourglass on the screen. Won't respond to keyboard, mouse or the on/off pushbutton! Any sage advice from the Lisa owners on the list will be appreciated. Steve -- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 4 19:33:56 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 01:33:56 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D99D5C3.28831.11F73B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D98C4ED.26408.24B58E6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 3, 11 07:05:17 pm, <4D99D5C3.28831.11F73B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9A6374.6060600@philpem.me.uk> On 04/04/11 22:29, Chuck Guzis wrote: > And the next most useful thing for me at least, is a good inspection > stereomicroscope. Tiny bridges between the leads of a LQFN package > with 0.5 mm spacing are far beyond a simple magnifier for me. With a > microscope, they look huge. I'll second that. I have an Olympus SZ30 with 0.9-4x vari-zoom objectives, a 10x eyepiece set and a 20x eyepiece set (I also have a Brunel Microscopes SLR camera adapter for it, but that's another story). It's one of the few pieces of equipment I'd never sell, not in a million years. Optical quality may not be "perfect", and it's a bit of a pig to use (I've never managed to get the dioptre and interpupillary distance adjustments "right"), but it's useful for debugging PCBs which have no obvious cause for failure, and is essential for repairing boards with small SMD parts. I honestly don't know how I've managed all these years without one... Although I do need to bolt on some form of illumination system. The ideal would be one of the Olympus SZ fibre-optic ring lights, although I might try and build an LED illuminator from a couple of Luxeon emitters... After all, the worst case situation is that it doesn't work and I learn something new regardless -- "I haven't failed, I've found a thousand different ways which don't work!" :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 4 19:36:07 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 01:36:07 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <201104042359.p34NxYXa040295@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D98C4ED.26408.24B58E6@cclist.sydex.com> <4D99D5C3.28831.11F73B5@cclist.sydex.com> <201104042151.p34LpYW1036283@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D99DF4A.2557.144A84E@cclist.sydex.com> <201104042359.p34NxYXa040295@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D9A63F7.7040201@philpem.me.uk> On 05/04/11 00:49, John Foust wrote: > At 05:10 PM 4/4/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 4 Apr 2011 at 16:37, John Foust wrote: >> >>> I've got a full Zeiss surgical stereo scope, 6x to 40x, illuminated >>> and filtered, on the articulated arm and roll-around stand. >> >> I'm envious. > > Oh yeah. I paid all of $100 for it, too. Here comes that wonderful combination of jealousy and envy.... Why is it I never find these wonderful bargains? :( (OK, my Oly SZ30 came to ?175 which is a pretty damn good deal, but still doesn't hold a candle to $100 for a Zeiss...!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 4 19:49:07 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 20:49:07 -0400 Subject: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D9A5885.1010303@mindspring.com> References: <4D99C498.9080306@compsys.to> <4D9A5885.1010303@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4D9A6703.5040507@compsys.to> >Don North wrote: > Didn't you mean to send this last Friday? I thought about that possibility. The post was ready to go, but there seemed to be TOO much of a probability it would be taken that way. > Actually I'd be more interested in Y1K support since I am using > an 11/34 as the navigational computer in my time machine, and it > only goes back in time. Already taken into account. The only question is how far back? While my initial start year was around 9999 BCE, I settled for the year 1588 CE (= 1972 - 3 * 128). Since the Gregorian Calendar started in 1582, there would not be any question of needing the proleptic Gregorian Calendar dates (dates which would be in effect if the Gregorian Rules had been used prior to 1582). However, if you need all of the dates for positive years staring with 1 CE, that can easily be accommodated. Would a start year of 52 CE (=1972 -15 * 128) be acceptable? Otherwise, -76 CE (77 BCE) is the next starting date. If you haven't realized, my intention is to keep all of the lower 16 bits for the extended date identical to the currently used bit pattern for dates from January 1st, 1972 to December 31st, 2099. That allows all current programs which have not been made Y3K compliant to run until December 31st, 2099 if the program is Y2K compliant. If a program is Y3K compliant, then dates prior to 1972 will also be possible. > >On 4/4/2011 6:16 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> Is there any interest in extending any of the PDP-11 operating systems >> so that they are able to support dates at least until 3000? While my >> personal interest lies with RT-11, I am curious if anyone has looked >> at the requirements for any of the other PDP-11 operating systems >> to determine what is required for Y3K date support? In addition, >> are the resources (technical knowledge, files to make the required >> changes and hardware to support the development) available? >> >> [Snip] >> >> Responses and suggestions are appreciated. >> >> If, as I have noted in the past there is no response, then at >> some point when it seems worthwhile, I shall at least present >> the technical details of what is required to implement Y3K for >> RT-11. There may also be details of other enhancements along >> with RT-11 bug fixes. If anyone has a wish list for RT-11 or >> knows of any RT-11 bugs which need fixing, I would very much >> appreciate the help. > Are there any other suggestions? Jerome Fine From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 4 19:54:28 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:54:28 +1200 Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? References: Message-ID: Steve, do you have the Mac emulator disk and the System disk for MacWorks on the Lisa? This is what I used for testing the drive as they both load up on stock 1 MB Lisa 2s with or without a Profile or Widget connected. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 12:30 PM Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? > Is List Test 3.0 supposed to work on an unmodified Lisa 2? I'm not quite > sure what's going on. It starts to load and I can watch the head stepping > around. Then after about 45 seconds it just stops with an hourglass on > the screen. Won't respond to keyboard, mouse or the on/off pushbutton! > > Any sage advice from the Lisa owners on the list will be appreciated. > > Steve > > > -- > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 19:54:50 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 19:54:50 -0500 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <201104042359.p34NxYXa040295@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D98C4ED.26408.24B58E6@cclist.sydex.com> <4D99D5C3.28831.11F73B5@cclist.sydex.com> <201104042151.p34LpYW1036283@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D99DF4A.2557.144A84E@cclist.sydex.com> <201104042359.p34NxYXa040295@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 6:49 PM, John Foust wrote: >>> I've got a full Zeiss surgical stereo scope, 6x to 40x, illuminated >>> and filtered, on the articulated arm and roll-around stand. >> > Oh yeah. ?I paid all of $100 for it, too. I have had my eyes open (both, since it's stereo ;-) for a deal like that. Nothing yet, but I'm ready to jump on it when I see it. No waffling. -ethan From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Apr 4 20:01:59 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 18:01:59 -0700 Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/4/11 8:25 AM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> Perhaps I am just weird, but I rarely damage circuit boards or components >> when de-soldering. I have a Hakko 808 de-soldering gun. > > Anecdotally, I suspect the Hakko unit has substantially better suction > than my aging OK or the BlackJack. > >> The biggest things I have learned from de-soldering are: >> >> Add fresh solder where you are able to, I have notices as solder ages and >> oxidizes it gets to be a nightmare to melt. Also fresh Flux can help some >> times. >> >> Keep your de-soldering nozzle cleaned, I use the sponge on my Hakko 936 ESD >> safe temp controlled solder station. >> >> Once you hear the de-soldering gun start to labor, you need to check for >> obstructions, and make sure your receptacle is NOT full of solder and the >> flux filter is not plugged up. > > I'm religous about all of that. > >> I am at the point on it where 95% of the time I can get IC sockets out of pc >> boards without damaging them. And have yet to *knock on wood* lift a trace >> on a board I was repairing, including the ATARI XF551 single sided boards >> where the traces are held on with good wishes. > > That was my hope. I add solder, clean the tip, hold it in place > until things are heated through and pull the trigger. It burrappps away > and just about nothing happens. Except thermal shock to the board, > tearing of adjacent traces, etc. > > Since most of the devices I work on use 60/40 leaded solder, what is the > recommended tip temperature? How long do you leave it in place on, e.g. a > through-hold IC lead before triggering the vacuum? > > May be that both these units are substandard. Getting desperate enough > that the Hakko is starting look like a good investment. When I'm desoldering, I put the edge of the hole against the leg for about 1 to 2 seconds then hit the suction. If it doesn't come clean, I resolder and give it another go. One thing I do is once I start the suction I press the leg against the other edge of the hole with the nozzle, that way I know I get all the solder out. Something you may want to consider if the desoldering isn't going well for you, there are a few low temp alloys made for desoldering, you resolder the pins with the alloy and then can generally completely clean it out using braid or a desolder tool. I have managed to lift traces with my hot air reflow tool, but I chalk that up to not having used one in > 10 years and being WAY out of practice... I am starting to get pretty good at listing surface mount IC's though :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 20:12:03 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 20:12:03 -0500 Subject: A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Michael Gemeny wrote: > Ethan, > > Over in the Yahoo group for the HP2000, some questions have been raised > about implementing this feature of the OS under simulation (SIMH) to connect > multiple simulated systems together. OK. That makes sense. We used to routinely patch different machines in the office together with our own boards and a shelf of sync modem eliminators. It's cheap when you make your own hardware and can press repaired or older rev boards into service (and don't have to pay yourself the license for the software). > If we were to simulate the sync interface card with a TCP connection > standing in for the modems, it would be nice to make it compatible with > other TCP simulations of 2780/3780, if any should exist. I found this as the first hit googling for "3780 encapsulation over tcp" http://www.advancedrelay.com/ci/solutions/bi-mono Looks like they are just taking the bisync packet and sending it with its length prepended as a 16-bit quantity, with the leading two syncs and trailing CRCs being optional (with the choice being both or neither). Obviously this technique wouldn't care if the payload is 3780 or HASP, and the emulation layer could know when the emulated system was sending out the CRCs by inspection (i.e., calculate what the CRC needs to be as each byte accumulates in the buffer, then if you get a match, send the buffer as a TCP packet). It's a bit CPU intensive but it's payload-protocol agnostic. If you _know_ the protocol (typically HASP or 3780), you can parse it and be expecting a CRC when it makes sense that the packet is finished. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Apr 4 20:19:57 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:19:57 -0700 Subject: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: <4D9A6703.5040507@compsys.to> References: <4D99C498.9080306@compsys.to> <4D9A5885.1010303@mindspring.com> <4D9A6703.5040507@compsys.to> Message-ID: From: Jerome H. Fine Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 5:49 PM >> Don North wrote: >> Actually I'd be more interested in Y1K support since I am using >> an 11/34 as the navigational computer in my time machine, and it >> only goes back in time. > Already taken into account. The only question is how far back? > While my initial start year was around 9999 BCE, I settled for the > year 1588 CE (= 1972 - 3 * 128). Since the Gregorian Calendar > started in 1582, there would not be any question of needing the > proleptic Gregorian Calendar dates (dates which would be in effect > if the Gregorian Rules had been used prior to 1582). However, > if you need all of the dates for positive years staring with 1 CE, that > can easily be accommodated. You have forgotten to take into account the fact that the Gregorian calendar was not adopted in by English speakers until 1752, by which time an 11th day had to be dropped from the calendar. While the Catholic countries in Europe adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1582, dropping 10 days in October, the English and their colonies took another 170 years, and dropped 11 days in September of that year. So any time-warping calendar program needs to take not only the date but the location into account. It is far better to use Julian days (not related to the Julian calendar which the Gregorian revised), and calculate from there to dates on any shorter-term calendar. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 4 20:32:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 18:32:48 -0700 Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D9A0ED0.16697.1FE4C5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Apr 2011 at 18:01, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Something you may want to consider if the desoldering isn't going well > for you, there are a few low temp alloys made for desoldering, you > resolder the pins with the alloy and then can generally completely > clean it out using braid or a desolder tool. Although there are commercial kits for it, when I have to remove a many-leaded SMT chip, I'll pack a powder made from Wood's metal around the leads and heat the underside of the PCB with a PAR-38 spotlight. Somewhere around 180-190F, the solder will let go and the chip will slide right off. I clean up with a toothbrush, re-tin the PCB pads and solder on the replacement. Yes, Wood's metal has cadmium and lead in it, but the amount that's used for a typical job is miniscule. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 4 20:32:53 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 02:32:53 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9A7145.1080009@philpem.me.uk> On 04/04/11 19:23, Tony Duell wrote: > Be careful when taking it apart. THere are some small washers, bushes, > spacers, etc in there. Oftnn they are stuck in place by the old grease > and you may not realise they are sparate parts until you apply the > solvent and they fall off and find a hidden corner of the workshop. I'm wondering if it would be worth building some form of "small thing disassembly box" to alleviate this problem. Basically, you take a 40-litre under-bed storage box (~?5, Poundstretcher), flip it upside down (thus turning the lid into the base) and use a holesaw to drill two large holes in the side big enough to put your hands through. Optionally attach some thin elbow-length gloves to these holes so your hands go through the gloves and into the box. This way, anything that decides to "ping" off into never-never-land will be restricted to "pinging" into one of the walls of the box. Gravity ensures that any tiny little things which choose to do this will end up in or near the bottom of the box. I've heard of similar things being done for hard drive repair -- though this involves adding a HEPA filter to get rid of particles in the air. The theory being that it's easier to keep a 1ft * 1ft * 2ft box clean than it is to do the same to an entire room... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Apr 4 20:34:08 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:34:08 -0700 Subject: peathens and hagans In-Reply-To: <27a04a1574c1b8104e83302066074702.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> References: <27a04a1574c1b8104e83302066074702.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: From: feedle at feedle.net Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 4:56 PM >> Since you have pbulically statesd that you don't like dealing with >> 'heathen atheists', I will assume that you don't want techncial >> advioce from heathen agnostics eitehr. I will therefore refrain >> from offering any. > As somebody who both identifies as one of those two, I'm wondering > exactly how you can be both.. unless you're referring to "heathen" > as "one who lives upon the heath" (ie. a "country-dweller"). > However, most of my friends who identify as "heathen" are certainly > NOT athiests, and most of the athiests I've known would distance > themselves (religiously) from modern Neopagan heathens. Tossing another log on the fire... Although Oxford does not back me up on this, I was taught when younger that *heathens* belonged to no organized religion, though they often recognized (small) gods as influential in their lives. *Pagans*, on the other hand, engaged in formal worship of major gods (or a single non-Semitic-origin god), with organized priesthoods, etc. usw. k.t.l. The modern neo-pagans certainly fit the latter description. The Ya-Ya Sisterhood fits the former. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mgemeny at pgcps.org Mon Apr 4 21:10:03 2011 From: mgemeny at pgcps.org (Michael Gemeny) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 22:10:03 -0400 Subject: A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That?s pretty cool. You could even configure the host for half duplex and, on the transmit side use the RTS going false to let the simulated IO card know that the packet is finished and can be sent. On the other side, an incoming TCP packet with a payload could cause the host OS to see a carrier detect until it had read all of the payload bytes of the packet, after which the CD goes away. That?s very cool. Thanks Ethan, Mike From jws at jwsss.com Mon Apr 4 21:30:53 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 19:30:53 -0700 Subject: A question about IBM 2780/3780 over TCP/IP for systems under simulation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9A7EDD.2070304@jwsss.com> Michael, I would think that having an interface that will also go to the Hercules / mvs system would be interesting as well. I do not think there is any cross simulator or simulator to hardware for this anywhere, and it would be great to pull off either hooking to the solution discussed here, or to be able to hook to hercules with either mvs or hasp or some other os running bisync. I don't know about the method they use to do the handshake and whether it takes into account to simulate an I/O card to the level you are describing or not, but I'm sure it could be done with some work Jim On 4/4/2011 7:10 PM, Michael Gemeny wrote: > That?s pretty cool. You could even configure the host for half duplex and, > on the transmit side use the RTS going false to let the simulated IO card > know that the packet is finished and can be sent. > > > > On the other side, an incoming TCP packet with a payload could cause the > host OS to see a carrier detect until it had read all of the payload bytes > of the packet, after which the CD goes away. > > > > That?s very cool. > > > > Thanks Ethan, > > > > Mike > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 4 21:33:57 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 19:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Richard wrote: > > > Speaking of elusive... would also love to find a > Tektronix 4010, but... > > I've actually found 4010s more readily than I have found > VT52s.? Been > looking for a number of years and still haven't come across > a VT52 at > an affordable price.? I've found a number of > 4010/4014s at affordable > prices. That's surprising - I've been looking for a Tek 4010 for a very long time, and have only seen one for sale. It was on eBay and I missed out because eBay timed out the login session, so when I tried to put in a bid at the last minute it booted me back to the login screen. It went for less than I was willing to pay, but at the same time, there's no telling what the other guy bid. Granted, I don't have any automatic alerts set up to email me in case one pops up, which I suppose I have to do. I've only seen the one on eBay. Of course, if anyone *has* a Tektronix 4010/4014 they're willing to sell, I'd definitely be interested in buying it, but I just have not had the opportunity. VT52's, on the other hand, I've had opportunities in the past, but in both cases, the seller flaked and dropped communication. And VT100's - I've got a couple. They're uncommon, but there are definitely a lot of them out there. I just wound up with another one last week, along with two CIT-101's (clones), which I actually find more interesting (and less common) -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 21:59:39 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 22:59:39 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > And VT100's - I've got a couple. They're uncommon, but there are definitely a lot of them out there. I just wound up with another one last week, along with two CIT-101's (clones), which I actually find more interesting (and less common) I probably average finding 2 or 3 a year, but I have sort of stopped picking them up. They are just too much of a hassle to ship properly. Thank you DEC for that awful plastic case. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 4 22:01:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 23:01:31 -0400 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: References: <93397.83501.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <007a01cbf248$b9db1160$2d913420$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D9A860B.5020609@neurotica.com> On 4/4/11 4:52 PM, Richard wrote: >> Surprised you suggest that VT100s are still relatively easily found. How >> common are they in the US? I have not been able to find one here in the UK >> and I don't recall seeing many in the US. I only look on eBay though, am I >> looking in the wrong places? > > VT100s are getting harder to find, but they still show up on ebay with > regularity. Lately they've all been offered sans keyboard and in > fairly poor cosmetic condition, though. This is another sign that > most of the good condition units have already been scrapped. ...or in the hands of people who have no interest whatsoever in parting with them, as is the case with my small stash. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From useddec at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 22:02:21 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 22:02:21 -0500 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I recall reading that at the peak of production DEC was cranking VT100's at a rate of 1 per minute. Paul On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Richard wrote: > >> >> > Speaking of elusive... would also love to find a >> Tektronix 4010, but... >> >> I've actually found 4010s more readily than I have found >> VT52s.? Been >> looking for a number of years and still haven't come across >> a VT52 at >> an affordable price.? I've found a number of >> 4010/4014s at affordable >> prices. > > That's surprising - I've been looking for a Tek 4010 for a very long time, and have only seen one for sale. It was on eBay and I missed out because eBay timed out the login session, so when I tried to put in a bid at the last minute it booted me back to the login screen. > > It went for less than I was willing to pay, but at the same time, there's no telling what the other guy bid. > > Granted, I don't have any automatic alerts set up to email me in case one pops up, which I suppose I have to do. I've only seen the one on eBay. > > Of course, if anyone *has* a Tektronix 4010/4014 they're willing to sell, I'd definitely be interested in buying it, but I just have not had the opportunity. > > VT52's, on the other hand, I've had opportunities in the past, but in both cases, the seller flaked and dropped communication. > > And VT100's - I've got a couple. They're uncommon, but there are definitely a lot of them out there. I just wound up with another one last week, along with two CIT-101's (clones), which I actually find more interesting (and less common) > > -Ian > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 4 22:11:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 23:11:10 -0400 Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: References: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D99C0A8.5010509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9A884E.1050203@neurotica.com> On 4/4/11 3:40 PM, Ian King wrote: > A few years ago I got a Calcomp 1043GT pen plotter from a guy who had > paid $50 for it at a garage sale, then realized it wouldn't work with > anything he had. He finally got tired of it sitting in his basement > and offered it to me - I bought him a beer. :-) > > The most modern driver I ever found for it was for Windows 95. There > is a ROM cartridge that one can plug in that will teach it to speak > (ISTR) PCL, but I've never found one - anyone got one? So it talks a > proprietary protocol that's quite obscure. I may try to > reverse-engineer it one of these days if I'm ever really really > bored.... But it draws really nice (and really big) pictures, even > if I do have to drive it with a creaky old version of TurboCAD that > runs on Win95. -- Ian I'd definitely reverse-engineer that, it sounds like a great device! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 4 22:11:54 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 23:11:54 -0400 Subject: Y3K for PDP-11 Operating Systems In-Reply-To: References: <4D99C498.9080306@compsys.to> <4D9A5885.1010303@mindspring.com> <4D9A6703.5040507@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4D9A887A.3060705@compsys.to> >Rich Alderson wrote: >From: Jerome H. Fine >Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 5:49 PM > >>>Don North wrote: >>> >>>Actually I'd be more interested in Y1K support since I am using >>>an 11/34 as the navigational computer in my time machine, and it >>>only goes back in time. >>> >>Already taken into account. The only question is how far back? >>While my initial start year was around 9999 BCE, I settled for the >>year 1588 CE (= 1972 - 3 * 128). Since the Gregorian Calendar >>started in 1582, there would not be any question of needing the >>proleptic Gregorian Calendar dates (dates which would be in effect >>if the Gregorian Rules had been used prior to 1582). However, >>if you need all of the dates for positive years staring with 1 CE, that >>can easily be accommodated. >> >You have forgotten to take into account the fact that the Gregorian >calendar was not adopted in by English speakers until 1752, by which >time an 11th day had to be dropped from the calendar. While the Catholic >countries in Europe adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1582, dropping 10 >days in October, the English and their colonies took another 170 years, >and dropped 11 days in September of that year. > >So any time-warping calendar program needs to take not only the date but >the location into account. > > In addition, other countries such as Russia adopted the Gregorian Calendar at a much later date. I am not sure when the US adopted the Gregorian Calendar, but it was probably around the same time. After considering how few dates will be used prior to 1900, I concluded that the Gregorian Calendar can be used as a common set of dates rather than making the different set of exceptions for all of the different countries. And prior to 1582, the proleptic Gregorian Calendar would provide a continuous set of dates without any gaps. Plus, supporting dates prior to 1972 was really in response to Don North, although I suspect it was more of an April Fool's suggestion. >It is far better to use Julian days (not related to the Julian calendar >which the Gregorian revised), and calculate from there to dates on any >shorter-term calendar. > Switching to Julian Days would provide a better solution, but the majority of Common Era (CE) dates are expressed via the more familiar months of January to December with a day number and a CE year. I suspect that the confusion of Julian Days would not be worth the extra precision. The imposition of using a proleptic Gregorian Calendar for dates in countries which had not switched should not be a huge burden if dates prior to 1900 CE are rarely needed, let alone used. If in the future, Julian Days prove to be a popular request for the date, then code could be added for its support. Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 00:04:51 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 00:04:51 -0500 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: References: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:59 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> And VT100's - I've got a couple. They're uncommon, but there are definitely a lot of them out there. There certainly were at one time (I haven't seen any go by in a long time, but I'm not actively looking). > I just wound up with another one last week, along with two CIT-101's (clones), which I actually find more interesting (and less common) I have multiple CIT-101 and CIT-101e terminals - we bought them at work when genuine VT100s were around $1600 each. I even have an original manual or two (but I know they've been scanned already). One nice feature of the -101s is the built-in real-time clock on the SETUP page (you set it with a magic CItoh escape sequence). I used to set mine on login and check the time by tapping SETUP. A nice feature of the -101e is that you can use the printer port as a second session port. The terminal doesn't maintain state, but when you are in an application that does redraw on demand (like EDT or vi), it's no big deal to use one session for editing and the other session for commands. > I probably average finding 2 or 3 a year, but I have sort of stopped > picking them up. They are just too much of a hassle to ship properly. > Thank you DEC for that awful plastic case. I agree - between finding large enough boxes to ship them safely and the amount of packing material, I'm not keen to ship them (though I _would_ sell terminals with keyboards to folks on their way to/from Dayton or other nearby event). -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 5 00:46:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 23:46:53 -0600 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <100182.20852.qm at web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > Granted, I don't have any automatic alerts set up to email me in > case one pop s up, which I suppose I have to do. I've only seen the one > on eBay. There have been a couple on ebay over the last few years. During that time, IIRC, there has been one VT52. It went for more than the 4010. > VT52's, on the other hand, I've had opportunities in the past, but in > both ca ses, the seller flaked and dropped communication. Last time I had a line on a VT52, the seller wanted $900. I want one, but not that bad. (It doesn't even do graphics!) > And VT100's - I've got a couple. They're uncommon, but there are > definitely a lot of them out there. Of course "a lot" is a relative term. There is only a small fraction out there compared to the production quantity. However, they are still relatively easy to find compared to a 4010 or a VT52. What is hard to find is one in good cosmetic condition. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 5 00:47:55 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 23:47:55 -0600 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: References: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Thank you DEC for that awful plastic case [on the VT100]. Yes, this is part of what makes finding one in good cosmetic condition difficult. There's also the yellowing of the plastic. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jonas at otter.se Mon Apr 4 06:34:56 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 13:34:56 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: <56b64c00ff13988e65e88aa4648411d0@otter.se> Tony Duell wrote: > I wouldn't put 'Wanton Destruction 40' anywhere near the floppy drive > (or > any other aprt of a classic computer). The stuff we get in the UK > contains some quite long-chain waxy hydrocarbons whcih will gum > things up > after a short while. I second that. WD-40 and 5.56 and the likes may be good for cars and motorbikes, but they should be kept well away from computers, or for that matter, cameras. > The later ones are > riveted, so you can just rmeove the springs, soak the assmebly in > solvent, then work the parts back and forth and wipe off the old > grease > as it appears. I find propan-2-ol (isporpanol) woeks well for this. Interesting, propanol is an alcohol and shouldn't be very good at dissolving grease, in theory. I would have thought white spirit would be better. /Jonas From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 4 14:46:14 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <309599.18358.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I'll have to check the specifics. But it looks exactly like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-C4713A-24-LARGE-FORMAT-PRINTER-/310285910290?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483e7b4112 by the way what religion are you? If you're an atheist, you'd better not e-mail me anymore. My mommy will be sooo mad! --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Chris Halarewich wrote: > do you know what the model number is From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 4 14:48:39 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for AT case in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <8CDC0D2DC0755D4-17F8-188D0@Webmail-m119.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <189946.66030.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I have an extremely rare authentic IBM 5170 case if anyone wants it. Free, but for shipping (NJ 07716). The bezel is nice, the case needs paint. I pulled everything except the p/s (and various retention h/w). Did we ever have a discussion on repainting computer cases? Do they just make the spray gun spit to cause the texture? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 4 14:56:42 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 12:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <4D99C0A8.5010509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <638148.79430.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I'm heavy into the plotter scene myself. I have an IBM, uh, forget the model number. 7575 maybe? And though I'm getting rid of so much, this bad boy is one of the very last things I'm letting go of (from my cold maggot infested dead hands). It's big, about 5 feet long. I lapsed into deep depression when I realized I didn't have the carousel, but this nut told me "who needs that?. Just change the pens manually!" (don't have pens either. He hacks sharpies onto old plotters for masking printed circuit boards). It's those little details about life that sometimes elude me. Anyway he made me feel much much betta. Everything I own is a "plotter" Dave. God, duh. If it plots a course to me making fun or money, it's a plotter indeed. Are you kidding me??? --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Dave McGuire wrote: From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 4 15:02:58 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 13:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <375685.21830.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Tony Duell wrote: > I assuime it's too modern for there to be anything useful > on > http://www.hpmuseum.net/ Yeah it's modern alright. A modern art piece made to produce masterful pieces of art. I don't think I ever told anyone this story. When the PowerMacs first came out, I had this sick idea of buying one (and/or buying/renting a plotter) and opening it up and drawing schematics for it. Not for the purpose of repairing the thing or anything, Mac folks are a little weak in the technical dep't. Just to hang it on the wall. I, at the time, was quite sure I'd be able to retire early. Who thinks that would have been a viable business model? I do think I would have been able to pay for the PM itself though. Another opportunity come and gone. Along w/my exploding Y2K bug. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 5 01:39:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 23:39:24 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <56b64c00ff13988e65e88aa4648411d0@otter.se> References: <56b64c00ff13988e65e88aa4648411d0@otter.se> Message-ID: <4D9A56AC.21994.316FFC9@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Apr 2011 at 13:34, jonas at otter.se wrote: > Interesting, propanol is an alcohol and shouldn't be very good at > dissolving grease, in theory. I would have thought white spirit would > be better. Perc is even better; washes the grease and oils right off and leaves a bone-dry surface. Smells kinda purty too, duh... --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 5 02:31:02 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 07:31:02 +0000 Subject: VCF East update Message-ID: <564659752-1301988663-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1454645965-@bda2007.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> We have a few spots left for exhibitors. So if anyone out there wants to register, then let me know ASAP. We also have a few spots left for the hands-on workshops -- "Teletype 101" (in which you can win a good-condition model '33) and "Build your own transistor-logic circuit". Register for these via the "workshops" link at vintage.org/2011/east. (Regular admission tickets are only sold at the door.) From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Apr 5 03:47:42 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:47:42 +0100 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: References: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Production rate was not the limiting factor. Testing was. In order to avoid high warranty costs DEC used to burn in all terminals. It's cheaper to fix equipment at the factory than send out a field service guy to do warranty work. DEC would set a MTBF goal. Let's say 5000 hours. Then based on field feedback adjust the burn in time to obtain a 90% confidence level of getting a 5000 hour MTBF. I remember huge rooms full of glowing VT100's with people on bicycles riding up and down the rows looking for failures. Printer burn in was even more impressive. Huge numbers of LA36's with a flag attached to the head that you could see going back and forth all together running a slide test. Easy to spot when one stopped. Lord only knows how much paper they used up. ? Rod Smallwood (ex DEC Terminals Product Line) ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: 05 April 2011 04:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? I recall reading that at the peak of production DEC was cranking VT100's at a rate of 1 per minute. Paul On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Richard wrote: > >> >> > Speaking of elusive... would also love to find a >> Tektronix 4010, but... >> >> I've actually found 4010s more readily than I have found >> VT52s.? Been >> looking for a number of years and still haven't come across >> a VT52 at >> an affordable price.? I've found a number of >> 4010/4014s at affordable >> prices. > > That's surprising - I've been looking for a Tek 4010 for a very long time, and have only seen one for sale. It was on eBay and I missed out because eBay timed out the login session, so when I tried to put in a bid at the last minute it booted me back to the login screen. > > It went for less than I was willing to pay, but at the same time, there's no telling what the other guy bid. > > Granted, I don't have any automatic alerts set up to email me in case one pops up, which I suppose I have to do. I've only seen the one on eBay. > > Of course, if anyone *has* a Tektronix 4010/4014 they're willing to sell, I'd definitely be interested in buying it, but I just have not had the opportunity. > > VT52's, on the other hand, I've had opportunities in the past, but in both cases, the seller flaked and dropped communication. > > And VT100's - I've got a couple. They're uncommon, but there are definitely a lot of them out there. I just wound up with another one last week, along with two CIT-101's (clones), which I actually find more interesting (and less common) > > -Ian > From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 5 04:40:33 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 02:40:33 -0700 Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/4/11 12:30 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> That isn't to say I haven't pulled components from boards and then been >> amazed at the crap that some manufacturers put into their products. I'd >> rather pay 5-10$ more and have a manufacturer use quality components :( > > So would I, (and I'd pay a lot more to get it), but unfortunately the > accountants that run th industry don't see it that way. They'd rather get > a little extra profit from em now, even if I'll never buy their crap again. > > -tony That is why when repairing such devices (my DVD recorder for analog video use) I upgrade the components that failed, and the heat-sinks, etc and many times all the caps, as on that device they were all running at the rated values or above the rated values :( they had places where the manufacturer schematic called for say a 500 or 600 uf and had 400ish uf caps. (don't remember exact values anymore) I was surprised the thing had worked in the first place :( From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue Apr 5 04:51:42 2011 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 19:51:42 +1000 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 Message-ID: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> Portable Computing Turns 30 according to PC Authority Mag - may be of interest to some subscribers... http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/253319,portable-computing-turns-30.aspx ++++++++++ Kevin Parker From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 06:33:39 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:33:39 +0100 Subject: need a Pentium 75 and heatsink In-Reply-To: <27a04a1574c1b8104e83302066074702.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> References: <27a04a1574c1b8104e83302066074702.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: On 5 April 2011 00:55, wrote: > >> Since you have pbulically statesd that you don't like dealing with >> 'heathen atheists', I will assume that you don't want techncial advioce >> from heathen agnostics eitehr. I will therefore refrain from offering any. > > As somebody who both identifies as one of those two, I'm wondering exactly > how you can be both.. unless you're referring to "heathen" as "one who > lives upon the heath" (ie. a "country-dweller"). ?However, most of my > friends who identify as "heathen" are certainly NOT athiests, and most of > the athiests I've known would distance themselves (religiously) from > modern Neopagan heathens. Well, quite. I may fit some definitions of "heathen" but I'm very definitely not a pagan. I did consider making some play of this, but I decided that, well... > Oh, wait. ?I'm assuming the "original poster" wasn't an ignorant idiot. > My bad. Bingo! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 06:54:28 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 07:54:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Keyboard foam discs (WAS: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: <4D99DB24.50008@philpem.me.uk> References: <891623.83655.qm@web121612.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D99DB24.50008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 04/04/11 13:02, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I just picked up a Sun 4 keyboard on eBay, since they apparently use the >> same keytronics arrangement internally. Long run, I'm going to track >> down the necessary tools to do fabricate from scratch. > > I wonder if it would be worthwhile making up some form of mass-production rig > for these. > > Sounds like a fun introduction to mechanical design, assuming you could find > a punch of the right size, and fabricate the necessary parts. A DC gearmotor > would probably be enough to provide motion for cutting the discs of material, > followed by a pick-and-place type rig to assemble the cut discs into a > keyswitch pad... > > Hmmmmm.... And... He's off and running at the gate! -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 07:02:48 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 08:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: > Steve, do you have the Mac emulator disk and the System disk for MacWorks on > the Lisa? This is what I used for testing the drive as they both load up on > stock 1 MB Lisa 2s with or without a Profile or Widget connected. I have a bunch of things pulled down from the web: MacWorksXL3.0.img.hqx MacWorks_System_Disk.img.hqx MacWorks1.img.hqx Which (if any) of those images is the correct one? Do you have an archive site to recommend? Several questions: - I think my unit is 512k (one Apple-branded memory board). Will the disks you refer to work on that? - Are you implying that the hang might be due to my not having the ProFile attached? - Is it possible to substitute an 800k drive from a newer mac? I have several with the same 20-pin connector, but ISTR a discussion (that I naturally cannot find now) about electrical incompatibility with the Lisa Lite interface board. I'll try generating the disks you suggest this evening if I can get straight on which is which. Steve > > Terry (Tez) > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" > To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 12:30 PM > Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? > > >> Is List Test 3.0 supposed to work on an unmodified Lisa 2? I'm not quite >> sure what's going on. It starts to load and I can watch the head stepping >> around. Then after about 45 seconds it just stops with an hourglass on the >> screen. Won't respond to keyboard, mouse or the on/off pushbutton! >> >> Any sage advice from the Lisa owners on the list will be appreciated. >> >> Steve >> >> >> -- >> >> > > > -- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Apr 5 07:24:26 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 05:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <617318.68341.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 4/5/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Several questions: > > - I think my unit is 512k (one Apple-branded memory > board). Will the disks you refer to work on that? MacWorks should definitely work - but I'm not sure about LisaTest or Lisa Office System. I know Lisa Office System really wants 1mb. IMHO, LisaTest *should* run on 512, but I've never tried it. > - Are you implying that the hang might be due to my not > having the ProFile attached? It shouldn't hang without a drive attached, it usually asks if you want to test the Profile, or the internal drive, and lets you skip those tests if you want. That way, you can just test the memory, etc. > > - Is it possible to substitute an 800k drive from a newer > mac? I have several with the same 20-pin connector, > but ISTR a discussion (that I naturally cannot find now) > about electrical incompatibility with the Lisa Lite > interface board. Yes, you should be able to, if you make a cable that omits pin 20 (motor speed control - 800k drives have internal speed control), and pin 9 (some extra voltage, I think). Have you tried cleaning the head on the disk drive? Use a cotton swap with isopropyl alcohol to clean it - I've seen them get pretty gunky. Also, is the little felt pressure pad at the top present and accounted for? If it's missing, the disk won't make constant contact with the head and you'll get random read errors. Also, double check to ensure the rails the head rides on are clean and free of grease or gunk - they can prevent the head from moving to further tracks. Also, what are you using to write the disks? You really can't use DiskCopy 6.3 - it writes disks missing some timing information and they won't work. DiskCopy 4.2, however, works. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 5 10:59:22 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 09:59:22 -0600 Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: References: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article , "Rod Smallwood" writes: > Production rate was not the limiting factor. Testing was. > In order to avoid high warranty costs DEC used to burn in all terminals. > [...] > > Printer burn in was even more impressive. Huge numbers of LA36's with a flag > attached to the head that you could see going back and forth all together > running a slide test. Easy to spot when one stopped. Lord only knows how > much paper they used up. I wonder if anyone ever filmed or videotaped the printing terminal testing? That would be cool! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From technobug at comcast.net Tue Apr 5 12:34:04 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:34:04 -0700 Subject: AM27S185 PROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E380625-5E71-47A6-B2A8-9DBAD1C96E76@comcast.net> A friend who currently runs an PDP11 as part of his business had a failure of one of the PROMs in his disk/tape controller. These beasts seem to be unobtainium - does anyone have any spares in their kit or know of a source. Understand that the chips are one-time-programmable so pulls aren't a reasonable solution... CRC From feedle at feedle.net Tue Apr 5 13:02:18 2011 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle at feedle.net) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 11:02:18 -0700 Subject: peathens and hagans Message-ID: <67f1fcaf7f4530908d8b2830835a2400.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> > Although Oxford does not back me up on this, I was taught when younger > that *heathens* belonged to no organized religion, though they often > recognized (small) gods as influential in their lives. *Pagans*, on > the other hand, engaged in formal worship of major gods (or a single > non-Semitic-origin god), with organized priesthoods, etc. usw. k.t.l. > > The modern neo-pagans certainly fit the latter description. The Ya-Ya > Sisterhood fits the former. Considering the phrase "language is DEscriptive, not PREscriptive..." In Neopagan and "New Age"/"New Thought" circles, Heathens are often those who follow a ersatz reconstructionist tribal religion of the northern European tribal cultures, often Scandanavian/Norse in origin (but not exclusively, there are some more Germanic and Anglo/Saxon flavors as well). Juxtaposition being "Pagan", which tends to (but not always) be a slightly newer reconstructionist target (as in, the religion they are attempting to reconstruct is often post-Roman but pre-Christian), so consequently has a more cosmopolitain flavor, often integrating concepts of deity and belief that would have not been present in northwestern Europe (and in some cases are even Middle Eastern in origin). That said, "pagan" and "heathen" have similar origins, so the words get fuzzy. However, when talking about the various modern Neopagan religions, people have their own perceptions that differ slightly from both the classical and contemporary mainstream usage. Gay Neopagan Fairy doesn't mean what a lot of "normal" people think. In actuality, it's far far worse. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go peathen. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 5 13:33:39 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:33:39 -0700 Subject: AM27S185 PROMs In-Reply-To: <5E380625-5E71-47A6-B2A8-9DBAD1C96E76@comcast.net> References: , <5E380625-5E71-47A6-B2A8-9DBAD1C96E76@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D9AFE13.8269.C631CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2011 at 10:34, CRC wrote: > A friend who currently runs an PDP11 as part of his business had a > failure of one of the PROMs in his disk/tape controller. These beasts > seem to be unobtainium - does anyone have any spares in their kit or > know of a source. Understand that the chips are one-time-programmable > so pulls aren't a reasonable solution... Jameco is still selling TPB24S81 PROMs: http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_27 828_-1 Looks like a pretty close match. Of course, you have to find someone to program the darned things. --Chuck From molists at yahoo.com Tue Apr 5 13:35:12 2011 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 11:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? In-Reply-To: <100182.20852.qm@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <438748.11469.qm@web45313.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > From: Mr Ian Primus > Subject: Re: Anyone got a VT52 they'd be willing to sell? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > ... > And VT100's - I've got a couple. They're uncommon, but > there are definitely a lot of them out there. I just wound > up with another one last week, along with two CIT-101's > (clones), which I actually find more interesting (and less > common) > > -Ian > We loved the C. Itoh 101. It had the most fantastic light-touch keyboard ever made. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 5 13:36:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 14:36:59 -0400 Subject: AM27S185 PROMs In-Reply-To: <4D9AFE13.8269.C631CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <5E380625-5E71-47A6-B2A8-9DBAD1C96E76@comcast.net> <4D9AFE13.8269.C631CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9B614B.5090100@neurotica.com> On 4/5/11 2:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> A friend who currently runs an PDP11 as part of his business had a >> failure of one of the PROMs in his disk/tape controller. These beasts >> seem to be unobtainium - does anyone have any spares in their kit or >> know of a source. Understand that the chips are one-time-programmable >> so pulls aren't a reasonable solution... > > Jameco is still selling TPB24S81 PROMs: > > http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_27 > 828_-1 > > Looks like a pretty close match. Of course, you have to find someone > to program the darned things. I can program them.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From molists at yahoo.com Tue Apr 5 14:23:30 2011 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CMD MSCP controllers In-Reply-To: <4D90AC13.9070109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <311198.18044.qm@web45315.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 3/28/11, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: CMD MSCP controllers > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, March 28, 2011, 8:41 AM > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200591760912 > > Seems like a decent price for a QBus controller. I > seriously doubt anyone could > build one for $125 We used a lot of these back in the day. Retired a lot of Eagles. I concur, you can't do better than this. Apparently there are a bunch available. http://cgi.ebay.com/CMD-CQD-220-M-DEC-MicroVax-PDP-Disk-Ctrl-/200591851132?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb434be7c From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 13:05:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 19:05:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <56b64c00ff13988e65e88aa4648411d0@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Apr 4, 11 01:34:56 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I wouldn't put 'Wanton Destruction 40' anywhere near the floppy drive > > (or > > any other aprt of a classic computer). The stuff we get in the UK > > contains some quite long-chain waxy hydrocarbons whcih will gum > > things up > > after a short while. > > I second that. WD-40 and 5.56 and the likes may be good for cars and > motorbikes, but they should be kept well away from computers, or for > that matter, cameras. They're not that good on some paets of cars either :-) As you may have gathered from my OT posts last week, I am somewhat interested in telephones. I was looking around some websites the other day amd one the subject of rotarry dials it said 'Do not use WD40. It will leave a sticky film that will atttract dust, Then the whole dial has to be stripped'. Having just taken a Western Electric dial totally apart (ven the staked parts), I can undersntad why this is not somethign to do lightly.. Incidentally, I have a 35mm SLR that had a simple fault (a spring became unhooked under the baseplate). Unfortuantely, the previous owner, noticing tha thte slow shutter speeds didn't work, sprayed WD40 into evey part of it. The result is that everything wil lahve to come apart (even the exposure meter movement pivots are gummed up). What would ahve ben a 10 minute repair is goign to take several days. I also know somebody who sprayed WD40 into a slightly sticking Kurta (almost on-topic ;-)). The result was a totally sitcking Kurta. > > > The later ones are > > riveted, so you can just rmeove the springs, soak the assmebly in > > solvent, then work the parts back and forth and wipe off the old > > grease > > as it appears. I find propan-2-ol (isporpanol) woeks well for this. > > Interesting, propanol is an alcohol and shouldn't be very good at > dissolving grease, in theory. I would have thought white spirit would be > better. White spriit would probalby be OK too. But most greases will disolve in alcohols, And propan-2-ol has the advantage that it;s the recomended cleaner for most disk drive parts, so it doesn't do any damage if it gets where it shouldn't. It also doesn't attack many plastics. It's odd, but apart from some people on this list, I can't think of any source that recomends the use of WD40 on precision mechanisms. Every book on clock repair, camera repair, instrument repair, etc that I have ever read warns against it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 14:09:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:09:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa: Some progress! In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 4, 11 06:43:41 pm Message-ID: > > Woot! > > Some serious progress. In no particular order: > > - Non-functional keyboard was traced to a (surprise) badly corroded stereo > phone jack. What threw me was that plugging in a straight Switchcraft That's good. That can't be dificult to repair, there are only 3 contacts :-) > plug for continuity checking showed everything ending up where it should. > After I took off the side of the unit, I discovered that the right-angle > molded plug on the keyboard cable does not get inserted far enough to make > a reliable connection. This looks iffy even at best, but I'll start by I've had this sort of thing before where a connecotr will not go fully home when the casing is fitted. Sicne you have a plug that will go all th eway in, maybe you could make up a short rxtension leand (plug to socket) so that both connecotrs will fit properly. It won't be original, but you can easilty unplug it if you want an 'original' machine for any reason. > replacing the jack. By removing the daughterboard that carries it and > plugging the keyboard into it directly, the computer sees it. That's the > good news. The bad news is that (also surprise!) there are a lot of dead > keys. So perhaps I spoke too soon about it being intact. I have a Sun 4 These keybords are an electrical matrix of capacitors. Individual dead keys are almost always due to the pads, complete rows or columns msising could be problems with the driver chips. There are custom, but there aren'yt that many varienats, so iy'd likely you can find some on anotehr old keyboard. I think I'd take the keybaord apart again amd inspect those pads. Remove a good pad from a working key plunger, and with the keyboard PCB connected uip, try it on each of the pairs of pads on said PCB to see if the machine thinks that key has ben pressed. If all the positions o nthe PCB works, the problem is nothign more than the pads. I cna problaby find soem information on the ICs used if you need to go that far. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 14:18:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:18:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9A6374.6060600@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 5, 11 01:33:56 am Message-ID: > Although I do need to bolt on some form of illumination system. The > ideal would be one of the Olympus SZ fibre-optic ring lights, although I > might try and build an LED illuminator from a couple of Luxeon emitters... A ring of normal white LEDs arranged around the objectvies? > After all, the worst case situation is that it doesn't work and I learn > something new regardless -- "I haven't failed, I've found a thousand > different ways which don't work!" :) Oh, absoluytely. You'll never do anything if you don't make mistakes, try out ideas that come to nothign, etc. 'The designer who never blew a chip is a bad designer. He never designed anything' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 14:27:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:27:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> from "Kevin Parker" at Apr 5, 11 07:51:42 pm Message-ID: > > Portable Computing Turns 30 according to PC Authority Mag - may be of > interest to some subscribers... > > http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/253319,portable-computing-turns-30.aspx This depends on how you define 'portable' and 'computer' :-) More seriously there were portable minicomputers (meaning they had handles nad you could just about stagger with one) over 40 years ago. Of coruse they needed mains power to operate I think the first programamble battery-operated device with conditional branching was the HP65 calcualtor from 1974. Whether you call that a 'computer' depeneds on our exact defintion. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 14:01:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:01:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <201104042151.p34LpYW1036283@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at Apr 4, 11 04:37:54 pm Message-ID: > I've got a full Zeiss surgical stereo scope, 6x to 40x, illuminated > and filtered, on the articulated arm and roll-around stand. You make me jealous :-). My microscope only has one objective lense with a beram splitter for the binocular eyepiece. Still it is a Zeiss, and the price was right (free :-), a friend wondered if I had any use for it). It needed a minor repair to the illumioator lamp power supply, but that was hardly beyond me Even with only 2D viewing, I find it very useufl for inspecting SMD soldering, magnetic heads, thermal printheads and the like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 14:35:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:35:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: <617318.68341.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Apr 5, 11 05:24:26 am Message-ID: > Have you tried cleaning the head on the disk drive? Use a cotton swap > with isopropyl alcohol to clean it - I've seen them get pretty gunky. > Also, is the little felt pressure pad at the top present and accounted At onme time that felt disk was avaialble as a spare part from Sony and HP. Not any more, though... > for? If it's missing, the disk won't make constant contact with the head > and you'll get random read errors. Also, double check to ensure the > rails the head rides on are clean and free of grease or gunk - they can > prevent the head from moving to further tracks. Also cehck for hardened grease in the leandscrew on the stepper motor. This can prvent the head from moving properly. These drives are very well made. Provided you don't touch the stepper motor fixing srews (and the track 0 sensor on a stnadard drive, I dont thin kthe Appie drive has one), you can take everything else apart (including removing the slide rain and the head carriage and it'll be properly aligned when you put it back together. Heck, I once replaced the head carriage on an HP-badged double sided drive with one from another dead drive and when I put the alignment disk im, it was not spot-on, but it was well witing toleraance. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 14:46:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:46:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Telephone Network block repair Message-ID: Lat week I asked about removing the potting compound from a 425E Network block in a Western Electric 500 telephone. I have no successfully repaied this unit, so I wil ldescribe what the problem was. On my line simulator, the phone worked properly apart from the fact that the microphone (mouthpiece, transmitter, whatever) didn't do anything. Checks shows 0V between the terminals (its a carbon microphone, of course, so you'd expect a standing DC votlag here). Also, the votlage drop across the phone when off-hook (the simiulator provides a constant line current) was much lower than I expected. With thr telepghone unplugged, I could measure 22 Ohms (or so) between the microhone cup contacts with the microhopne removed. The same resistance was found between the R and B termainasl on the Netowork, even with the wire on the B terminal disocnnected. And yet agai nthe same resistance bwtween R and B witl all the wiring disconnectd from the Network. There's a 22 Ohm resistor inside the Network with one end conencted to the B terminal (and nothing else). Therefore I suspected a short from the other end of this resistor to something connected to R. at this point I decided to open up the Network, hence by posts last week. After getting rid of that potting compound, I found tha, yes, the 'other' end of that resistor did terst as a dead short to the R terminal. A bit of careful inspection showed that one of the enamelled transformer wires connected to the 22 ohm resistror passed over the lead of a 68 ohm resistor conencted to R, and that there was a short there. No, I didn't rewind the transformer. I desoldered the 68 Ohm ressitor lead and put a bit of sleeving on it. Tests showed the resistances between the Netowkr module terminals were now more reasonable, and after reassmbling the phone it works fine. Yes, I _could_ have bought a repalcement Netwrok block, but this is much mroe fun :-) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 5 14:54:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 15:54:57 -0400 Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9B7391.6040404@neurotica.com> On 4/4/11 3:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > So would I, (and I'd pay a lot more to get it), but unfortunately the > accountants that run th industry don't see it that way. They'd rather get > a little extra profit from em now, even if I'll never buy their crap again. Well, with our massive population explosion, the idea of "repeat customers" is much less of a concern. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 5 15:03:02 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:03:02 -0700 Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: <4D9B7391.6040404@neurotica.com> References: <4D9B7391.6040404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 12:55 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) > > On 4/4/11 3:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > So would I, (and I'd pay a lot more to get it), but unfortunately the > > accountants that run th industry don't see it that way. They'd rather > get > > a little extra profit from em now, even if I'll never buy their crap > again. > > Well, with our massive population explosion, the idea of "repeat > customers" is much less of a concern. > > -Dave Occasionally when I've complained about poor service or quality, I've been told just that and in so many words: "There are another hundred customers outside my door. Why should I care?" One time I was told that at a restaurant that had been in business for 23 years (in response to a complaint of poor service). They closed three months later.... -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 5 15:26:25 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:26:25 -0700 Subject: CMD MSCP controllers In-Reply-To: <4D90AC13.9070109@bitsavers.org> References: <4D90AC13.9070109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 8:41 AM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: CMD MSCP controllers > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200591760912 > > Seems like a decent price for a QBus controller. I seriously doubt > anyone could > build one for $125 > Listed as "tested" and with a return policy of "7 days after receipt." Seller has good feedback. Sounds good to me - there's now one less available, guys.... :-) Thanks for posting this, Al! -- Ian From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 5 16:00:19 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:00:19 -0400 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9B82E3.1050709@snarc.net> >> Portable Computing Turns 30 according to PC Authority Mag - may be of interest to some subscribers... >> >> http://www.pcauthority.com.au/News/253319,portable-computing-turns-30.aspx > This depends on how you define 'portable' and 'computer' :-) > > More seriously there were portable minicomputers (meaning they had handles nad you could just about stagger with one) over 40 years ago. Of coruse they needed mains power to operate > > I think the first programamble battery-operated device with conditional branching was the HP65 calcualtor from 1974. Whether you call that a 'computer' depeneds on our exact defintion. It's hardly worth debating. Presumably, cctalk'ers already know that consumer magazines will dummy-down and generalize the "first" concept. And many of us also know that even without qualifying the definitions of "portable" and "computer", the Osborne wasn't even the first of the suitcase computers -- and I don't mean just the Xerox NoteTaker prototype, I mean commercially available stuff from companies such as MCM, Bobst, and GM Research (excluding the IBM 5100 which was the * least * "portable" of its generation.) From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 5 16:06:02 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:06:02 -0400 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> > This depends on how you define 'portable' and 'computer' :-) > > More seriously there were portable minicomputers (meaning they had handles nad you could just about stagger with one) over 40 years ago. Of coruse they needed mains power to operate PS - The suitcase computers needed AC power, too. At best, some of them had conversion kits for 12V car batteries. In my opinion, if you're tethered to AC power, then it's still not portable* even if it were pocket-sized. * Many people in recent years distinguish between portable and mobile. They say the latter category means battery-powered and/or has wireless networking. I say that's arbitrary marketing hogwash. But I stand by the battery aspect as a core requirement for portability. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 5 16:16:25 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:16:25 -0400 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> References: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> Kind of an interesting view, because Evan brings up a good point, with a long extension cord and casters on a cabinet or desk, essentially a LOT of a/c powered systems could've been considered "Portable" at the time and that's not too far of stretch to say given many systems at the time required reinforced floors to water cooling as essential operating requirements... ;-) Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> This depends on how you define 'portable' and 'computer' :-) >> >> More seriously there were portable minicomputers (meaning they had >> handles nad you could just about stagger with one) over 40 years ago. >> Of coruse they needed mains power to operate > > PS - The suitcase computers needed AC power, too. At best, some of > them had conversion kits for 12V car batteries. In my opinion, if > you're tethered to AC power, then it's still not portable* even if it > were pocket-sized. > > * Many people in recent years distinguish between portable and > mobile. They say the latter category means battery-powered and/or has > wireless networking. I say that's arbitrary marketing hogwash. But I > stand by the battery aspect as a core requirement for portability. > From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 5 16:30:16 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:30:16 -0400 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D9B89E8.3010102@snarc.net> > Kind of an interesting view, because Evan brings up a good point, with > a long extension cord and casters on a cabinet or desk, essentially a > LOT of a/c powered systems could've been considered "Portable" at the time Thanks Curt. Conversely, in the 1950s and 1960s, the U.S. Army had general-purpose electronic computers such as MOBIDIC ("Mobile Digital Computer") permanently mounted in trucks (for MOBIDIC it was a 30-foot trailer!) There really were portable, because they were specifically designed to be brought to the problem, instead of the problem being brought to the computer. Question for the European list members -- was there anything similar out there from the mid-1950s to early 1960s? Moral: portability is about intention and usefulness, not merely size. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 5 16:40:00 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110405143021.C20608@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Kind of an interesting view, because Evan brings up a good point, with a > long extension cord and casters on a cabinet or desk, essentially a LOT > of a/c powered systems could've been considered "Portable" at the time > and that's not too far of stretch to say given many systems at the time > required reinforced floors to water cooling as essential operating > requirements... Anything with casters is "movable". To be "portable", it shouldn't need casters, and should have enough handles that none of the people carrying it has a load of more than 100 pounds. Lee Felsenstein designed the Osborn computer to be operable from a car battery. It was NOT the first portable computer by ANY rational definition. When asked by an interviewer about how much the "portable battery pack" would weigh, he responded that that was how much your car weighs. (He drove an Accord at the time) BTW, Lee is currently hospitalized in Redwood City; prognosis is uncertain. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 5 16:47:12 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:47:12 -0400 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <20110405143021.C20608@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> <20110405143021.C20608@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D9B8DE0.5060005@snarc.net> > To be "portable", it shouldn't need casters, and should have enough handles that none of the people carrying it has a load of more than 100 pounds. Sure, if you mean "human" portable. That is * one * definition. > When asked by an interviewer about how much the "portable battery pack" would weigh, he responded that that was how much your car weighs. Source please? (That's not what Lee told me last year.) > BTW, Lee is currently hospitalized in Redwood City; prognosis is uncertain. Sigh .... I wasn't going to mention that here. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 5 16:50:31 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 15:50:31 -0600 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <4D9B86A9.5060407 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Kind of an interesting view, because Evan brings up a good point, with a > long extension cord and casters on a cabinet or desk, essentially a LOT > of a/c powered systems could've been considered "Portable" at the time > and that's not too far of stretch to say given many systems at the time > required reinforced floors to water cooling as essential operating > requirements... Once we took our LA-36 terminals outside of Willard Hall (University of Delaware) because the weather was so nice. Our terminals were located in a room we affectionately called "the fishbowl" because it had glass windows facing the entrance vestibule and lobby of Willard Hall on the first floor. We opened up the windows, hauled the terminals outside the entrance and dangled the power cords back through the open windows. Because it was a printing terminal you could sit at, it worked great. It wouldn't have been very feasible to do this with the CRT terminals we had due to glare and the need to also haul out a desk for the terminal to sit on. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 5 17:08:49 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 15:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9B8DE0.5060005@snarc.net> References: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> <20110405143021.C20608@shell.lmi.net> <4D9B8DE0.5060005@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20110405150122.U20608@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > When asked by an interviewer about how much the "portable battery > > pack" would weigh, he responded that that was how much your car > > weighs. > Source please? Computer Chronicles? It is unlikely that I can find the VHS tape. > (That's not what Lee told me last year.) Stick with what he told you; he might have just been blowing off an annoying question. > > BTW, Lee is currently hospitalized in Redwood City; prognosis is uncertain. > Sigh .... I wasn't going to mention that here. actually, I've heard that he would like more visitors. I won't have a chance to go there for at least another 2 weeks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 17:16:21 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 18:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: <617318.68341.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <617318.68341.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Tue, 4/5/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> Several questions: >> >> - I think my unit is 512k (one Apple-branded memory >> board). Will the disks you refer to work on that? > > MacWorks should definitely work - but I'm not sure about LisaTest or > Lisa Office System. I know Lisa Office System really wants 1mb. IMHO, > LisaTest *should* run on 512, but I've never tried it. I'll try MacWorks this evening and see. > Have you tried cleaning the head on the disk drive? Use a cotton swap > with isopropyl alcohol to clean it - I've seen them get pretty gunky. > Also, is the little felt pressure pad at the top present and accounted > for? If it's missing, the disk won't make constant contact with the head > and you'll get random read errors. Also, double check to ensure the > rails the head rides on are clean and free of grease or gunk - they can > prevent the head from moving to further tracks. I cleaned the head while I had the load mechanism off for cleaning and lubrication. The drive makes a loud "shushing" sound when turning, so I suspected the felt pad might be gone. But, it does appear to be there so I'm not sure what's causing it. I cleaned and lubed the rails also. The head carriage is moving freely. > Also, what are you using to write the disks? You really can't use > DiskCopy 6.3 - it writes disks missing some timing information and they > won't work. DiskCopy 4.2, however, works. I wrote them with DiskCopy 4.2 on a Mac LC II. That's not the problem. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 18:14:57 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 19:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: <617318.68341.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <617318.68341.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Tue, 4/5/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> Several questions: >> >> - I think my unit is 512k (one Apple-branded memory >> board). Will the disks you refer to work on that? > > MacWorks should definitely work - but I'm not sure about LisaTest or > Lisa Office System. I know Lisa Office System really wants 1mb. IMHO, > LisaTest *should* run on 512, but I've never tried it. The diskette drive was throwing a lot of read errors and making a lot of friction noise. On a hunch, I moved the pressure-pad tension spring to a lower setting (closer to the pivot). Then, I put in the MacWorks diskette. It chunked away for a while, emitted a beep and spat it out. The Macintosh "insert diskette" icon was on screen :-). Put in the Mac System diskette and it loaded to the desktop. Turns out that LisaTest 3.0 will NOT run in 512k, which might be a good data point for others in the this situation down the road. I found an AST RamStack 1M board in the other machine and put that in the second memory slot. ListTest booted without a problem and is busy testing memory as this is written. One serious issue with the diskette drive: It has one or more "dead" spots in its rotation. If it stops at such a point it fails to spin up again at the next access. When it spits the diskette out with an error, I give the spindle a small push with a screwdriver, reinsert and it picks up from that point. Hopefully folks have some sage advice for dealing with dead spots? It's not related to the excess pressure on the head - it doesn't even try to spin. There's absolutely no sound or activity. Steve -- From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 5 18:34:10 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 16:34:10 -0700 Subject: Definition of portable (was RE: Portable Computing Turns 30) In-Reply-To: <4D9B8DE0.5060005@snarc.net> References: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> <20110405143021.C20608@shell.lmi.net> <4D9B8DE0.5060005@snarc.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 2:47 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Portable Computing Turns 30 > > > > To be "portable", it shouldn't need casters, and should have enough > handles that none of the people carrying it has a load of more than 100 > pounds. > > Sure, if you mean "human" portable. That is * one * definition. > Back in my early days as an amateur radio operator, I recall taking my rig to school, setting it up in one of our study spaces so I could give a demonstration to my fellow middle-school students. I joked with someone I was a 'mobile' station and, with the lack of humor often endemic among the hardcore pocket-protector crowd, one of my fellow hams corrected me, telling me it was a 'portable' station. Never mind the half-hour or so setting everything up, then untold time finding an appropriate place for an antenna.... -- Ian From terry.stewart296a at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 19:08:59 2011 From: terry.stewart296a at gmail.com (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 12:08:59 +1200 Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: References: <617318.68341.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Steve. This dead spot problem is exactly the same problem Tony and i have been grappling with for the past couple of months! Check past posts on thiz forum. Despite lots of tests, replacements and disassemblies we never got to the bottom of it. In the end i sourced a replacement drive. On 6/04/2011 11:14 AM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: On Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Tue, 4/5/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> Several questions: >> >> - I th... The diskette drive was throwing a lot of read errors and making a lot of friction noise. On a hunch, I moved the pressure-pad tension spring to a lower setting (closer to the pivot). Then, I put in the MacWorks diskette. It chunked away for a while, emitted a beep and spat it out. The Macintosh "insert diskette" icon was on screen :-). Put in the Mac System diskette and it loaded to the desktop. Turns out that LisaTest 3.0 will NOT run in 512k, which might be a good data point for others in the this situation down the road. I found an AST RamStack 1M board in the other machine and put that in the second memory slot. ListTest booted without a problem and is busy testing memory as this is written. One serious issue with the diskette drive: It has one or more "dead" spots in its rotation. If it stops at such a point it fails to spin up again at the next access. When it spits the diskette out with an error, I give the spindle a small push with a screwdriver, reinsert and it picks up from that point. Hopefully folks have some sage advice for dealing with dead spots? It's not related to the excess pressure on the head - it doesn't even try to spin. There's absolutely no sound or activity. Steve -- From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 5 19:12:34 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:12:34 -0700 Subject: CMD MSCP controllers In-Reply-To: References: <4D90AC13.9070109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 1:26 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'; > classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: CMD MSCP controllers > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > > Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 8:41 AM > > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > > Subject: CMD MSCP controllers > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200591760912 > > > > Seems like a decent price for a QBus controller. I seriously doubt > > anyone could > > build one for $125 > > > > Listed as "tested" and with a return policy of "7 days after receipt." > Seller has good feedback. Sounds good to me - there's now one less > available, guys.... :-) > > Thanks for posting this, Al! -- Ian They're all gone now.... :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 5 20:18:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 21:18:43 -0400 Subject: CMD MSCP controllers In-Reply-To: References: <4D90AC13.9070109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D9BBF73.8050500@neurotica.com> On 4/5/11 8:12 PM, Ian King wrote: >> Listed as "tested" and with a return policy of "7 days after receipt." >> Seller has good feedback. Sounds good to me - there's now one less >> available, guys.... :-) >> >> Thanks for posting this, Al! -- Ian > > They're all gone now.... :-) Well then. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 5 20:39:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 21:39:35 -0400 Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <309599.18358.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <309599.18358.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D9BC457.1060704@neurotica.com> On 4/4/11 3:46 PM, Chris M wrote: > I'll have to check the specifics. But it looks exactly like this: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-C4713A-24-LARGE-FORMAT-PRINTER-/310285910290?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item483e7b4112 Ahh, a DesignJet 430-ish machine, a little baby one. :) They're really nice printers. They typically go for $300-700 or so. Damn fine score to find one for free. Let us know if it works. Maybe I'll try to talk you out of it at some point if I wind up moving back up north. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 21:18:07 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 23:18:07 -0300 Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printeron the road References: <309599.18358.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D9BC457.1060704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Ahh, a DesignJet 430-ish machine, a little baby one. :) They're > really nice printers. They typically go for $300-700 or so. Damn fine > score to find one for free. Let us know if it works. Maybe I'll try to > talk you out of it at some point if I wind up moving back up north. Lucky guy... :oP From technobug at comcast.net Tue Apr 5 22:43:26 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:43:26 -0700 Subject: AM27S185 PROMs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:33:39 -0700, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Jameco is still selling TPB24S81 PROMs: ?? > http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_27 > 828_-1 > > Looks like a pretty close match. Of course, you have to find someone > to program the darned things. > > --Chuck Thanks for the link. I believe the N82S186 is the same chip. The bit rot extends to this biological entity because I now remember that I fought these nasties years ago in a different computer in a different universe. On Tue, 05 Apr 2011 14:36:59 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > I can program them.. > > -Dave Thanks, but my trusty BC Micro can do the job. My first inclination, when asked to look at the problem, was that one of the bipolar ROMs had gone south. My friend had an identical SpectraLogic board that had died many years ago, but had the same configuration. We pulled the PROMs and did a compare to ensure that they tracked. One of the two hardware configuration PROMs read, but wouldn't self verify. Nor would it reprogram. Switching the good PROM from the failed board brought the system back up. We ducked this bullet, but getting a few spares in to go with our library of PROM content should help in the future. Again, thanks for the help, CRC From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 6 00:14:54 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 22:14:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For future reference Message-ID: I've sold stuff to several cctalk list members over the years and I like to think it has all been pleasant. This evening I was accused by someone of shilling an auction for an XCOMP ST/S hard disk controller board set. I'm quite interested in your homebrewing efforts and I wish I had the space and money to buy some of your wares. Accusing people of impropriety is not the way to earn accolades. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jonas at otter.se Tue Apr 5 05:04:57 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:04:57 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f32dedd53b39c7d7e9f82c389a55a21@otter.se> > I'm wondering if it would be worth building some form of "small thing > disassembly box" to alleviate this problem. > > Basically, you take a 40-litre under-bed storage box (~?5, > Poundstretcher), flip it upside down (thus turning the lid into the > base) and use a holesaw to drill two large holes in the side big > enough > to put your hands through. Optionally attach some thin elbow-length > gloves to these holes so your hands go through the gloves and into > the box. > > This way, anything that decides to "ping" off into never-never-land > will > be restricted to "pinging" into one of the walls of the box. Gravity > ensures that any tiny little things which choose to do this will end > up > in or near the bottom of the box. Taking things apart in a photographic developing tray is a good start. It won't keep things from pinging off to somewhere where only the cat will find them, but it catches things like small screws and ball-bearings that fall out. I like to use old plastic 35mm film containers to keep small items in, one container for each subsystem/part/whatever, keeps related parts together so you don't end up with 55 nearly identical screws that you can't remember where they went. Taking pictures as you go along with a simple digital camera also helps if you do not have a service manual. /Jonas From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Tue Apr 5 06:47:28 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:47:28 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions Message-ID: <01NZR98M9ZF6000FE1@beyondthepale.ie> > >If the restriction comes from the host only using SCSI Read(6) >commands then the limit is a 21-bit Logical Block Address (LBA) field. > SCSI Read(10), Read(12), and Read(16) have larger LBA fields. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI_Read_Commands > >With a 21-bit LBA the host can access 2,097,152 blocks. >If those blocks are 512 bytes each that works out to a total of >1,073,741,824 bytes. > That figure looks familiar. This used to be covered in the VMS FAQ. IIRC attempts to read or write to higher block numbers by the console firmware result in the address wrapping rather than an outright failure. It should be possible to arrange the files on a larger disk so that the code that the firmware needs to access for booting is located below the limit. However, this is not as easy as it sounds as VMS BACKUP restores files in alphabetical order and some of the critical bits are located under the VMS$COMMON directory which may end up getting written late in the restore. Special care needs to be taken of the dumpfile (or pagefile if used for dumping). A system crash will result in the firmware writing to it and this can be very bad news if part of the file is located beyond the limit which will cause the address to wrap and something near the beginning of the disk to get overwritten. Disks that are not used for booting or system dumps are not affected by this limitation so a system can have a small boot disk and a much larger data disk. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From pinball at telus.net Tue Apr 5 23:55:46 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 21:55:46 -0700 Subject: AM27S185 PROMs In-Reply-To: <4D9B614B.5090100@neurotica.com> References: , <5E380625-5E71-47A6-B2A8-9DBAD1C96E76@comcast.net> <4D9AFE13.8269.C631CB@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9B614B.5090100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9BF252.7030608@telus.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/5/11 2:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> A friend who currently runs an PDP11 as part of his business had a >>> failure of one of the PROMs in his disk/tape controller. These beasts >>> seem to be unobtainium - does anyone have any spares in their kit or >>> know of a source. Understand that the chips are one-time-programmable >>> so pulls aren't a reasonable solution... >> >> Jameco is still selling TPB24S81 PROMs: >> >> http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_27 >> 828_-1 >> >> Looks like a pretty close match. Of course, you have to find someone >> to program the darned things. > > I can program them.. > > -Dave > I can too. Gotta love the ancient Data I/O 29B with a Unipac! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 5 16:43:06 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:43:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <201104041757.43073.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <837601.62943.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/4/11, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > I worked on one of those a while back,? not terribly > successfully.? Does that thing use a big wide roll of > paper that hangs on the back?? I might have service > data,? depending on the exact model plugged it in, nothing. Designjet 430. the roll of paper hangs out the front. I posted a link to a picture of something lookin mainly the same in a previous post. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 5 18:54:28 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 16:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone need a Rainbow? Message-ID: <298600.53307.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I have (2) I will be getting rid of soon. No k/b's (I know where you can get them though, if the guy is willing to ship). Both have h/d's, but neither will boot (as far as a quick test showed). Make offer. I also have (2) mono monitors, but have screen mold. Make offer. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 6 01:36:03 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 23:36:03 -0700 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> References: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> Message-ID: <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com> Kevin Parker wrote: > Portable Computing Turns 30 according to PC Authority Mag They're not much of an "authority". The MCM/70 portable computer was introduced over 37 years ago, and the IBM 5100 Portable Computer over 35 years ago. Eric From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 6 01:52:04 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 08:52:04 +0200 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com> References: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110406065204.GA5118@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 11:36:03PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Kevin Parker wrote: > > Portable Computing Turns 30 according to PC Authority Mag > > They're not much of an "authority". The MCM/70 portable computer > was introduced over 37 years ago, and the IBM 5100 Portable Computer > over 35 years ago. Mind you, they weren't "Personal". But you got me reading up on the MCM/70 which is a good deed. Cheers, Pontus. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Apr 6 02:20:14 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 08:20:14 +0100 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9B8DE0.5060005@snarc.net> References: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com><20110405143021.C20608@shell.lmi.net> <4D9B8DE0.5060005@snarc.net> Message-ID: <1E14F84742554B6C992B36C5C1D40D55@RODSDEVSYSTEM> At a simplistic level mobile would mean operates while moving, portable would mean operates while static. So any computer operating onboard ship, mounted in a plane, a missile or in a moving land vehicle could be a mobile computer. Which brings us back to 'what is a computer'. The attack computer in a submarine, the Norden bombsite or a fire control system on board a warship.? ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: 05 April 2011 22:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Portable Computing Turns 30 > To be "portable", it shouldn't need casters, and should have enough handles that none of the people carrying it has a load of more than 100 pounds. Sure, if you mean "human" portable. That is * one * definition. > When asked by an interviewer about how much the "portable battery pack" would weigh, he responded that that was how much your car weighs. Source please? (That's not what Lee told me last year.) > BTW, Lee is currently hospitalized in Redwood City; prognosis is uncertain. Sigh .... I wasn't going to mention that here. From fryers at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 02:31:10 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 15:31:10 +0800 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <1E14F84742554B6C992B36C5C1D40D55@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> <4D9B86A9.5060407@atarimuseum.com> <20110405143021.C20608@shell.lmi.net> <4D9B8DE0.5060005@snarc.net> <1E14F84742554B6C992B36C5C1D40D55@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: All, Up to about the 1940's[1], a computer was a job title, given to someone who work undertook calculations. People typically have legs and a self contained power supply, that requires recharging every so often. I don't know when the job title of computer as first used. 1800's some time? Is this the first portable computer? [1] A rough number, give or take 20 or so years. Back to work writing Fortran.... Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 6 03:16:53 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 01:16:53 -0700 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <20110406065204.GA5118@Update.UU.SE> References: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com> <20110406065204.GA5118@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4D9C2175.7040203@brouhaha.com> Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Mind you, they weren't "Personal". What wasn't personal about the MCM/70 or IBM 5100? They didn't run batch or timesharing, but were dedicated to serving a single user at a time interactively. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Apr 6 03:27:11 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 09:27:11 +0100 Subject: DEC Legacy Event 2011 Announcement - October 8th, 9th 2011, Windermere, UK Message-ID: <1302078431.5745.8.camel@linux.hecnet.eu> I'm pleased to announce DEC Legacy 2011 which will take place on the weekend of October 8th-9th 2011 in Windermere, UK. Following the success of last years event I would like to invite all those interested in DEC's range of computers to join me and other DEC enthusiasts for the two day event to celebrate the fantastic work of Digital Equipment Corporation and the legacy it has inspired. Registration is Open. More details at: http://declegacy.org.uk Kind regards, Mark Wickens Event Organiser From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Apr 6 03:54:06 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 10:54:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Bitsavers rsync Message-ID: The rsync daemon on bitsavers is still down, and noone seems to know the reason why. I've already got a request from someone using my mirror on a regular base... At least, one could expect a notice on the home page. Christian From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Apr 6 04:45:08 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 21:45:08 +1200 Subject: Some more Lisas References: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com><20110406065204.GA5118@Update.UU.SE> <4D9C2175.7040203@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <30A171C927EC474DB66E294F06C937B4@massey.ac.nz> Just when you thought you'd seen enough Lisas. This post from alker33 on the Vintage Computer Forums! http://alker33.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/my-apple-lisa-collection/ Terry (Tez) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 6 04:46:24 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 11:46:24 +0200 Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9C2175.7040203@brouhaha.com> References: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com> <20110406065204.GA5118@Update.UU.SE> <4D9C2175.7040203@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110406094624.GA12705@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Apr 06, 2011 at 01:16:53AM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Mind you, they weren't "Personal". > > What wasn't personal about the MCM/70 or IBM 5100? They didn't run > batch or timesharing, but were dedicated to serving a single user at > a time interactively. > I was being slightly sarcastic and presented what I think is the view of PC Mag. (I should have learnt by now that sarcasm doesn't come across very well in written text). But I don't think the above computers where marketed towards the general public which might be another reason for PC Mag to exclude them.. but I guess it is just ignorance. Regards, Pontus. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 6 05:21:03 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 03:21:03 -0700 Subject: anyone need a Rainbow? In-Reply-To: <298600.53307.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: WHERE!?!?!?!??! 100, 100B or 100+ ??? I miss my 'bow. It was one of the computers several years ago that the person who broke into my storage unit thought was useless so they smashed it onto the concrete floor, then tipped my Honda CB900F onto it :( On 4/5/11 4:54 PM, "Chris M" wrote: > I have (2) I will be getting rid of soon. > > No k/b's (I know where you can get them though, if the guy is willing to > ship). Both have h/d's, but neither will boot (as far as a quick test showed). > Make offer. > I also have (2) mono monitors, but have screen mold. Make offer. > > > > From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Wed Apr 6 06:44:13 2011 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 07:44:13 -0400 Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions In-Reply-To: <01NZR98M9ZF6000FE1@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01NZR98M9ZF6000FE1@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <4D9C520D.4020604@splab.cas.neu.edu> HI again, Well, sorry I didn't post enough info the first time. The system has two of the Seagate 4Gb drives in it now. Both are used for current work, and backups, etc. are on an external drive. So, I'd like to keep at least a 4Gb drive as a replacement. If I really can use a new 73 Gig Cheetah, then that's probably how I'll go. The drive I replace is the 5.25 inch full height drive, and I have room in the cabinet where the third drive bay is, so I could put an adapter in that space. And thanks for all the offers for replacement "lightly used" drives, but if a new drive will work with just an adapter cable, I'm really leaning that way... Joe Heck From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 06:50:02 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 07:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Some more Lisas In-Reply-To: <30A171C927EC474DB66E294F06C937B4@massey.ac.nz> References: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com><20110406065204.GA5118@Update.UU.SE> <4D9C2175.7040203@brouhaha.com> <30A171C927EC474DB66E294F06C937B4@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, terry stewart wrote: > Just when you thought you'd seen enough Lisas. This post from alker33 on the > Vintage Computer Forums! > > http://alker33.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/my-apple-lisa-collection/ We are not worthy... We are not worthy... -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 07:11:48 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 08:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>> The later ones are >>> riveted, so you can just rmeove the springs, soak the assmebly in >>> solvent, then work the parts back and forth and wipe off the old >>> grease >>> as it appears. I find propan-2-ol (isporpanol) woeks well for this. >> >> Interesting, propanol is an alcohol and shouldn't be very good at >> dissolving grease, in theory. I would have thought white spirit would be >> better. > > White spriit would probalby be OK too. But most greases will disolve in > alcohols, And propan-2-ol has the advantage that it;s the recomended > cleaner for most disk drive parts, so it doesn't do any damage if it gets > where it shouldn't. It also doesn't attack many plastics. The only place I've seen this is in the form of "Rubbing Alcohol" which tends to be 65-70% concentration. Is that sufficient and/or safe to use on electronic parts? Can anyone in the states recommend a good source for larger (e.g. gallon) quantities of 99% propanol? I doubt it can be shipped by mail or UPS, so I'm hoping to find some local source. Others have recommended Perc. Unless I'm confusing that with something similar-sounding, it's seriously nasty stuff. Back when flux remover actually worked, it was perc based. The EPA has clamped down on the use of perc, although I think it's still a component of "dry" cleaning. Lastly, what are folks' opinions on the use of "Triflow" spray silicone lubricant for things like the Lisa load mechanism? I've used it in the past to service CD and cassette load mechanisms without any obvious problems. Steve -- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 07:53:33 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 05:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <837601.62943.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <432472.99341.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 4/5/11, Chris M wrote: > plugged it in, nothing. Designjet 430. > Well, then it could just be a power supply failure. Start with the basics, check the fuse, etc. It's a fairly standard swtichmode power supply design, IIRC. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 6 09:27:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 10:27:09 -0400 Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <837601.62943.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <837601.62943.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D9C783D.2000008@neurotica.com> On 4/5/11 5:43 PM, Chris M wrote: >> I worked on one of those a while back, not terribly >> successfully. Does that thing use a big wide roll of >> paper that hangs on the back? I might have service >> data, depending on the exact model > > plugged it in, nothing. Designjet 430. > > the roll of paper hangs out the front. > > I posted a link to a picture of something lookin mainly the same in a previous post. Toasted power supply. If you can hang onto it, perhaps I'll talk you out of it at some point. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 6 09:28:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 10:28:03 -0400 Subject: Desoldering: Was (Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration) In-Reply-To: References: <4D9B7391.6040404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9C7873.9080701@neurotica.com> On 4/5/11 4:03 PM, Ian King wrote: >> Well, with our massive population explosion, the idea of "repeat >> customers" is much less of a concern. > > Occasionally when I've complained about poor service or quality, I've > been told just that and in so many words: "There are another hundred > customers outside my door. Why should I care?" > > One time I was told that at a restaurant that had been in business > for 23 years (in response to a complaint of poor service). They > closed three months later.... -- Ian Serves 'em right, though I must say I'm surprised. As evil as it is, their logic is sound. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Apr 6 09:57:19 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 15:57:19 +0100 Subject: Vax 3100 disk recommendation and suggestions In-Reply-To: <4D9C520D.4020604@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: joe heck [trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu] wrote: > So, I'd like to keep at least a 4Gb drive as a replacement. > If I really > can use a new 73 Gig Cheetah, then that's probably how I'll go. The > drive I replace is the 5.25 inch full height drive, and I > have room in > the cabinet where the third drive bay is, so I could put an > adapter in > that space. I have a 68-pin 73GB Quantum Atlas that I briuefly ran in my VS400-90, but the disk is just too noisy to have in my study. That's the largest working SCSI disk I have so I cannot comment on (say) 146GB drives but I cannot imagine that they would be a problem. (If you try a 2TB SATA drive via a SCSI<=>SATA bridge of some sort I expect you'd hit the VMS volume size limit perhaps). This is what I have running in my VAXstation 3100 M90 (under OpenVMS VAX): KRAKAR> sh dev dk/fu Disk $1$DKA0: (KRAKAR), device type IBM DDYS-T18350N, is online, mounted, file- oriented device, shareable, served to cluster via MSCP Server, error logging is enabled. Disk $1$DKA100: (KRAKAR), device type FUJITSU MAH3182MS, is online, mounted, file-oriented device, shareable, served to cluster via MSCP Server, error logging is enabled. Disk $1$DKA200: (KRAKAR), device type FUJITSU MAH3182MS, is online, mounted, file-oriented device, shareable, served to cluster via MSCP Server, error logging is enabled. Those are all 18GB drives, all 68-pin SCSI2, IIRC. I've had trouble getting SCA-80 drives to work in that system through an adapter, but the (working) 68-pin SCSI-2 drives I've tried have been fine. I'll be interested to hear how things go for you. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From jonas at otter.se Wed Apr 6 05:21:13 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 12:21:13 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: <84f517234a32f7a6cb9ddfc6ca764821@otter.se> > Incidentally, I have a 35mm SLR that had a simple fault (a spring > became > unhooked under the baseplate). Unfortuantely, the previous owner, > noticing tha thte slow shutter speeds didn't work, sprayed WD40 into > evey > part of it. The result is that everything wil lahve to come apart > (even > the exposure meter movement pivots are gummed up). What would ahve > ben a > 10 minute repair is goign to take several days. > > I also know somebody who sprayed WD40 into a slightly sticking Kurta > (almost on-topic ;-)). The result was a totally sitcking Kurta. AARRGGHHH! Those people are EVIL! Could you remove all glass from your SLR and then flood-clean it with lighter fluid? Might save some dismantling... > It's odd, but apart from some people on this list, I can't think of > any > source that recomends the use of WD40 on precision mechanisms. Every > book > on clock repair, camera repair, instrument repair, etc that I have > ever > read warns against it. It comes up sometimes on the classic camera mailing lists I am a member of. However there is always a flood of responses strongly advising against it in no uncertain terms. Many precision mechanisms are better off unlubricated, e.g. shutters. Something else to watch out for is keeping anything silicone-based away from a camera. The silicone adsorbs to glass etc at a molecular level and is absolutely impossible to remove. I expect that doesn't apply to computers though. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Wed Apr 6 06:04:26 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 13:04:26 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: > Oh, absoluytely. You'll never do anything if you don't make mistakes, > try out ideas that come to nothign, etc. > > 'The designer who never blew a chip is a bad designer. He never > designed > anything' :-) In that case I must be a brilliant audio equipment designer. The number of transistors that exploded while I was building my stereo in the 70s was amazing :-) I even managed to short out a 2N3055, but I had to drop a test lead connected to its collector on to a 220V terminal on the mains transformer to succeed :-) OTOH, that also caused a BFR39 or something to send half its case flying about 10m across the room... /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Wed Apr 6 06:06:40 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 13:06:40 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: <9a59d4d3334f5179c0a57ee2abacb815@otter.se> > Perc is even better; washes the grease and oils right off and leaves > a bone-dry surface. > > Smells kinda purty too, duh... Indeed it is, and does. Forbidden over here though, highly carcinogenic, and will dissolve your brains as well if you get too fond of the smell. /Jonas From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 6 12:36:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 10:36:44 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <9a59d4d3334f5179c0a57ee2abacb815@otter.se> References: <9a59d4d3334f5179c0a57ee2abacb815@otter.se> Message-ID: <4D9C423C.28807.894A7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2011 at 13:06, jonas at otter.se wrote: > > Perc is even better; washes the grease and oils right off and leaves > > a bone-dry surface. > > > > Smells kinda purty too, duh... > > Indeed it is, and does. Forbidden over here though, highly > carcinogenic, and will dissolve your brains as well if you get too > fond of the smell. And yet here, we have people pumping their own gasoline/petrol. Hugely dangerous (both explosive and potently carcinogenic). Greed trumps everything... A good degreaser, but not so tender on plastics. In the old days, I'd just use some carbon tet. --Chuck From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 13:22:36 2011 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 11:22:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <818664.58006.qm@web161908.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I use cheap plastic ice cube trays to segregate screws and small parts by sub assembly. Al Jonas wrote: >> Taking things apart in a photographic developing tray is a good start. >> It won't keep things from pinging off to somewhere where only the cat >> will find them, but it catches things like small screws and >> ball-bearings that fall out. I like to use old plastic 35mm film >> containers to keep small items in, one container for each >> subsystem/part/whatever, keeps related parts together so you don't end >> up with 55 nearly identical screws that you can't remember where they >> went. Taking pictures as you go along with a simple digital camera also >> helps if you do not have a service manual. >> >> /Jonas From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 6 13:45:17 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 19:45:17 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/04/2011 13:11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > The only place I've seen this is in the form of "Rubbing Alcohol" which > tends to be 65-70% concentration. Is that sufficient and/or safe to use > on electronic parts? Can anyone in the states recommend a good source > for larger (e.g. gallon) quantities of 99% propanol? It might be good enough, but "rubbing alcohol" can be many things, many of which are not isopropanol. 99% isopropanol won't stay 99% for very long unless very carefully stored; it slowly absorbs water from air and ends up about 90%. > Others have recommended Perc. Unless I'm confusing that with something > similar-sounding, it's seriously nasty stuff. Back when flux remover > actually worked, it was perc based. The EPA has clamped down on the use > of perc, although I think it's still a component of "dry" cleaning. Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we used to use were based on 1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC (tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight surprise) PERC isn't. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 6 14:15:53 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 12:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <20110406094624.GA12705@Update.UU.SE> References: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com> <20110406065204.GA5118@Update.UU.SE> <4D9C2175.7040203@brouhaha.com> <20110406094624.GA12705@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20110406120507.L82758@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I was being slightly sarcastic and presented what I think is the view > of PC Mag. (I should have learnt by now that sarcasm doesn't come across > very well in written text). > But I don't think the above computers where marketed towards the general > public which might be another reason for PC Mag to exclude them.. but I > guess it is just ignorance. 's OK your meaning was clear. "Unavailable to the public"? "unknown to people who were deliberately UNinterested in computers before Mac and Windoze"? "sales reps only went to large organizations"? I assume that anybody with a metric buttload of money could have gotten one, albeit with some difficulty. What were their prices? What does that compare to in current dollars? If John Titor will have had found his 5100 (not sure how to conjugate a future past perfect), how many 203x dollars will it had take? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 13:04:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 19:04:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <5f32dedd53b39c7d7e9f82c389a55a21@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Apr 5, 11 12:04:57 pm Message-ID: > Taking things apart in a photographic developing tray is a good start. > It won't keep things from pinging off to somewhere where only the cat > will find them, but it catches things like small screws and Now there's an idea.... How do I train Muon [1] to find and return E-circlips, ball bearings, odd washers, etc, rather than dead rodents [1] One of the cats who chooses to live with me. Explanation of the neam on request :-) I am conviced that there's a spacetime warp in my workshop. Things just vanish. I was reparing an Epson dot matrix printer and I dropped a plastic bush fromthe apepr feed mechanism. It bounced on the floor and vanished. I must have looked for it for over half an hour, nothing. In the end I spent 10 minues machining a new one from bras (thankfully there was a second identical bush on the other end of the spindle that I coudl take meausrements from. Soem time later I was repairign an HP printer. I took the mains rocker switch apart to clean the cotnacts and wipe years of gunge off the rocker itself. I dropped one fo the moving contacts in abotu the smae place. It vnaaished too. Again I spent a long time loong for it, no luck (and I didn't find the bush from the Epson printer either). In he end I took apart a 'random' swithc with about the smae spacing bwetween the termainals and found the moving contacts were identical to the ones in the HP siwthc. So that's what went back in it. > ball-bearings that fall out. I like to use old plastic 35mm film > containers to keep small items in, one container for each I find those divided plastic boxes (Raaco make good ones) useful for this. Get the ones with fix partitions, the 'improved' adjustable partitions have the annoying habit of coming out at the wrong momemnt. Anyway, you can use each compartmetn for the screws, buts, etc from a paerticlar stage of the dismantling. 'Stage' is determined by my judgement. If there are half a dozen PCBs all held down my the same type of screws, then all of them go in the same place. But I might well put all the bits from an earthing bolt with several nuts, spring washers, faston tages, etc in its own place with nothing else. If you asre not sure you'll remember what each compartmetn contains, you can driop slip of paper with a suitable note on it in there as well. > subsystem/part/whatever, keeps related parts together so you don't end > up with 55 nearly identical screws that you can't remember where they > went. Taking pictures as you go along with a simple digital camera also > helps if you do not have a service manual. The even simpler device, a notebook and pen, works fine too. In fact I never work on anytthing, even if I have the official service manuals, without a way of making notes. In some cases the notebook is better than a photograph ,i that you can write things like 'nut, claw washer, plain washer, earth tag, heatsink brakcet, chassis, screw from the other side' where the order may not be clear from a photo. And you can draw a sketch of a gear train with a comment like 'Idle position, hole in this gear lines up with the one in the frame , marker on this gear lines up with that notch in the fram '. Again a photo might not show this clearly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 13:13:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 19:13:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: probably OT, In-Reply-To: <837601.62943.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Apr 5, 11 02:43:06 pm Message-ID: > plugged it in, nothing. Designjet 430. I guiess the fisrt thing to do is to check to see if you're getting any votlage at all from the PSU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 13:48:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 19:48:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 5, 11 07:14:57 pm Message-ID: > One serious issue with the diskette drive: It has one or more "dead" > spots in its rotation. If it stops at such a point it fails to spin up > again at the next access. When it spits the diskette out with an error, I > give the spindle a small push with a screwdriver, reinsert and it picks up > from that point. > > Hopefully folks have some sage advice for dealing with dead spots? It's > not related to the excess pressure on the head - it doesn't even try to > spin. There's absolutely no sound or activity. Interesting. This sounds liek a stock fault with these Lisa drives, I think Terry had much the same problem. Alas I don't have scheamtics of these drive, and they're not on the web that I can see. However, from the phots that Terry took of his drive, it appears that the motor is similar, but not identical, to the later one used in the full-height 600rpm Sony drives. it has one extra wire on the connector (8, not 7), I assume this is a speed control input for the variable speed feature. Anyay, you cna download 'my' scheamatics for, say, the HP9121 from http://www.hpmuseum.net/. That'll give you the schematic of the standard motor which whould be a start. These motroe are electroncially commutated 3 phase things. The controller chip ias a TA7259 (an odd thing in a wide DIL pacakage with 14 normal pin nad 2 large hatsink tabs). This is a stanard IC, you can get a data sheet from http://www.datasheetarchive.com/. There are 3 hall effect devices that detect the position of the rotor and provide inputs to this IC. It then drives the 3 motor windigns which are connected in a star (Wye) configuration. There's also a star of cpaacitors connected to the outptus. Of coruse there's a speed control input to thais IC too. There;s an FG (Frequency Geneator) coil in the top of the motor housing wich is used as a speed reference. With the normal drives, I've had the TA7259 fail occasionally, I've also had the odd dud hall sesnor. Either could account for dead spots. If you change the IC, it's worth changing the capacitors on the output pins too, a defective one can ause the new IC to fail. Some paracitacl hints : To get to the motor, take off the eject mechanism (you know how to do this, right :-)). Then remvoe the E-circlips on top of the 2 plastic sensor arms, lift off the arms and the compression springs under them. Be careful, these plarts cna fly :-). Take off the drive PCB if toy've not already done so (and thus unplug the motor connector from it). Undo the 2 screws on the motor PCB, the whole lot, motor and PCBm comes out as a unit. The bearing hosuing is a tight-ish fit in the chassis. If you need to get inside the mtoro itself to repalce the hall effect devices or becuase you thin there's winding trouble, you hacve to disconenct the FG coil. It's connected to the flexiprint stripo that comes out the side of the can and which is soldered to a header that is, in turn, soldered to the PCB. Desodler this on the PCB side (much less likely to do damge than deosldering a flexiprint), then bend up the tabs on the underside of the motor and lift off the casing complete with the FG coil. The rotor then pulls out upwards and you can get to the electrical bits. I wouidl be interested to hear if you manage to repair it. AS I said, I dont know the Apple drive at all, but I've repaired a fair number of the 'normal' 600 rpm ones. I am happy to giveyou any hints I can. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 13:53:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 19:53:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <20110406065204.GA5118@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at Apr 6, 11 08:52:04 am Message-ID: > > They're not much of an "authority". The MCM/70 portable computer > > was introduced over 37 years ago, and the IBM 5100 Portable Computer > > over 35 years ago. > > Mind you, they weren't "Personal". But you got me reading up on the > MCM/70 which is a good deed. Why aren't they 'personal'? They're small, single-user machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 14:16:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 20:16:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: from "jonas@otter.se" at Apr 6, 11 01:04:26 pm Message-ID: > > > Oh, absoluytely. You'll never do anything if you don't make mistakes, > > try out ideas that come to nothign, etc. > > > > 'The designer who never blew a chip is a bad designer. He never > > designed > > anything' :-) > > In that case I must be a brilliant audio equipment designer. The number I would claim that you're uch better audio designer from actually designing soemthing (even thoguh you had transistors fly across the room) than you would have been if you'd never had a go. > of transistors that exploded while I was building my stereo in the 70s > was amazing :-) Perhaps I'd metter not mention the time I had a pair of EL34s with the anode glowing bright orange/yellow. Of coruse I had managed to short out the grid bias supply... > I even managed to short out a 2N3055, but I had to drop a test lead > connected to its collector on to a 220V terminal on the mains > transformer to succeed :-) > OTOH, that also caused a BFR39 or something to send half its case > flying about 10m across the room... Or the time I foolishly diabled the overcurrent trip circuit in a DEC H754 -15V regualtor block to find out why the output voltage was dropping to 0. The actuall rason was that the crowbar was tirggerign when it shouldn't Withoput hte overcurrent trip, I think 4 transistors failed, the small-signal ones blew themselves apart. Oh yes, and then the fuse burned out. Never made _that_ mistake again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 13:10:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 19:10:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9B843A.1050409@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at Apr 5, 11 05:06:02 pm Message-ID: > PS - The suitcase computers needed AC power, too. At best, some of them > had conversion kits for 12V car batteries. In my opinion, if you're > tethered to AC power, then it's still not portable* even if it were > pocket-sized. Cerrtainly over here, the term 'portable televison' meant a TV set that was small/light enough to be carried (and had a handle :-)), but which needed soem kind of external power source to run. Often the mains, but many models coudl also run froam 12V car battery. I would not reject a similar definiton for 'portable computer' out of hand. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 13:52:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 19:52:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Portable Computing Turns 30 In-Reply-To: <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 11 11:36:03 pm Message-ID: > > Kevin Parker wrote: > > Portable Computing Turns 30 according to PC Authority Mag > > They're not much of an "authority". The MCM/70 portable computer was > introduced over 37 years ago, and the IBM 5100 Portable Computer over 35 > years ago. If you're goign to include the IBM5100, you should also incldue the HP9830 (1973, IIRC). I think HP even sold a carrying handle for it (which I have never seen...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 14:10:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 20:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <84f517234a32f7a6cb9ddfc6ca764821@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Apr 6, 11 12:21:13 pm Message-ID: > > I also know somebody who sprayed WD40 into a slightly sticking Kurta > > (almost on-topic ;-)). The result was a totally sitcking Kurta. > > AARRGGHHH! Those people are EVIL! Exactly. I did offer to repair the Kurta, but after I heard what had happeend to it, I pointed out it would ahve to be totally stripped and cleanerd, and even at my low rates, that might well cost more than the thing was worth. As far as I know, it's still in the same state... > > Could you remove all glass from your SLR and then flood-clean it with > lighter fluid? Might save some dismantling... Not really. The glass parts wil lcome off (interchangeable prism and focussing screen), but it's acloth focal plane shutter, shich is not the best thing to flood with lighter fluid. I'd also have to relubricate all the bits that need oil anyway. My expeirence is that flood-cleaning meter movements doesn't work eitehr. > > It's odd, but apart from some people on this list, I can't think of > > any > > source that recomends the use of WD40 on precision mechanisms. Every > > book > > on clock repair, camera repair, instrument repair, etc that I have > > ever > > read warns against it. > > It comes up sometimes on the classic camera mailing lists I am a member > of. However there is always a flood of responses strongly advising That does notp suprise me. > against it in no uncertain terms. Many precision mechanisms are better > off unlubricated, e.g. shutters. It's perhaps worth mentioningthat a lot of small gear trains, in particualr clocks and watches, but also chutter times, etc, are supposed to run with the teeth _dry_, no oil. Yes, you put a drop on each pivot, but nowhre else. Leaf shutter (and diaphragm) blades must be oil-free or they will stick like crazy. But often the timing and control mechanisms do need _careful_ lubrication (by which I mean 1 drop of watch oil in the right place). > > Something else to watch out for is keeping anything silicone-based away > from a camera. The silicone adsorbs to glass etc at a molecular level > and is absolutely impossible to remove. I expect that doesn't apply to Now that I didn't realise (not that I normally use silicone lubricants), thanks! -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 6 15:17:11 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 21:17:11 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9CCA47.8010909@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/04/2011 20:10, Tony Duell wrote: > Leaf shutter (and diaphragm) blades must be oil-free or they will stick > like crazy. I was taught (by a optical technician) that some iris diaphragm and shutter blades do get lubricated -- but only with a tiny, tiny amount of fine graphite powder. About as much as you can pick up with a pin :-) And only after you're sure they're clean (no oil). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 6 15:10:24 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 21:10:24 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9CC8B0.7070602@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/04/2011 19:04, Tony Duell wrote: > I am conviced that there's a spacetime warp in my workshop. Things just > vanish. Same problem here ;-) The most annoying thing is when you I the tiny part I've just finished on the lathe (or whatever), and /it/ teleports. > I find those divided plastic boxes (Raaco make good ones) useful for > this. Get the ones with fix partitions, the 'improved' adjustable > partitions have the annoying habit of coming out at the wrong momemnt. > > Anyway, you can use each compartmetn for the screws, buts, etc from a > paerticlar stage of the dismantling. I have a variant of that. At the back corner of my bench is a stack of perhaps a couple of dozen small round plastic tubs, about 70mm dia and mostly around 25mm deep, which various dips and sauces from ready-meals came in. When I take something apart, the first batch of bits goes in a tub. The next batch goes in another tub, which sits on top of the first, and so on. At any given time there are probably three or four stacks on the go, as there are 3-4 projects/repairs waiting for parts (or time, or further thought, or enthusiasm). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 6 15:27:12 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 13:27:12 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> References: , , <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D9C6A30.27995.1255979@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2011 at 19:45, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we used to use were based > on 1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC > (tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight > surprise) PERC isn't. A trade name here was/is "Chlorothane" (not to be confused with "chlorethane"). Great stuff, as chlorinated hydrocarbons go, fairly safe. It was banned as part of the Montreal Protocol because of its ozone- depleting properties, not because of its toxicity. When I was younger and more foolish, I used to wax the shop floor by dissolving a glob of paste wax in a couple of gallons of chlorothane and then swabbing it all over the floor. Buff after the solvent has evaporated. What do garage mechanics use for automotive degreaser in the countries where Perc is banned? --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Wed Apr 6 15:33:06 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:33:06 -0500 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9C6A30.27995.1255979@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> <4D9C6A30.27995.1255979@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9CCE02.6060101@vaxen.net> On 4/6/11 3:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Apr 2011 at 19:45, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > What do garage mechanics use for automotive degreaser in the > countries where Perc is banned? I just bought a gallon pail of Berryman carb cleaner. I was shocked when I opened it and read the directions - after soaking parts, they must be RINSED IN WATER. It's closer to Simple Green than real carb cleaner. I dunno what this crap is, but it ain't the Berryman's I know and love. Doc From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 15:35:04 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 16:35:04 -0400 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9C6A30.27995.1255979@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> <4D9C6A30.27995.1255979@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It was banned as part of the Montreal Protocol because of its ozone- > depleting properties, not because of its toxicity. It is a level 2A carcinogen, as well as being an irritant. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 15:39:31 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 16:39:31 -0400 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> <4D9C6A30.27995.1255979@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It is a level 2A carcinogen, as well as being an irritant. Clarification - tetrachloroethylene is level 2A, trichloroethane is level 3. Both are irritants -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 6 15:56:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 13:56:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110406135429.H86264@shell.lmi.net> > > Something else to watch out for is keeping anything silicone-based away > > from a camera. The silicone adsorbs to glass etc at a molecular level > > and is absolutely impossible to remove. I expect that doesn't apply to On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Now that I didn't realise (not that I normally use silicone lubricants), > thanks! . . . and my Nikonos came with a small tube of silicone lubricant to put on the O-ring that keeps the lens mount watertight. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 6 16:01:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 14:01:55 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4D9C7253.29496.14524A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2011 at 16:39, William Donzelli wrote: > > It is a level 2A carcinogen, as well as being an irritant. > > Clarification - tetrachloroethylene is level 2A, trichloroethane is > level 3. Both are irritants Thank you--I was about to return that methyl chloroform was level 3 carcinogen "not classifiable as to human carcinogenicity". Far safer than the gasoline that gets sloshed around by the millions of barrels every day... --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Apr 6 16:02:21 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 09:02:21 +1200 Subject: Lisa floppy drive dead spot issue (was Re: Lisa Test 3.0?) References: Message-ID: <2DA09B6F4BAA4DB5BE662796070F7BCC@massey.ac.nz> > Interesting. This sounds liek a stock fault with these Lisa drives, I > think Terry had much the same problem. Yes, exactly the same problem and in fact in two of the three drives I had. It does sound now like a common Lisa floppy drive issue. Just to recap, in both these drives I replaced the TA7259s with new ones plus the capacitors on the outputs as Tony suggested. No change whatsoever. I also checked waveforms of the hall effect devices on the two drives. The waveforms on all hall-devices looked very consistant both within a drive and between the two faulty drives. In saying that, the pattern of the wave was the same the amptitude between devices within a drive varied. From memory device C had about 2/3 the amptitude of device A with the amptitude of device B smack in the middle between these two (or maybe C was the larger and A was the smaller...I'll need to consult my notebook). This was the same for the other drive. Had I seen the lesser amptitude on device C but A and B were the same I would have thought it strange. However B was in between the two so I figured this gradation in signal strength between the hall-devices was suppose to be like that. On both drives and it was entirely consistant in the size and distribution of the amptitude between A, B and C. What I didn't do was compare these scope readings with a normal drive. None of those hall-device readings looked obviously faulty though. Given this fault doesn't appear to be a one-off, but may be common with aging Lisa drives it would be good to get to the bottom of it. It may need someone with more diagnostic skills and understanding than me though. Terry From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 16:06:48 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 17:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 06/04/2011 13:11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> The only place I've seen this is in the form of "Rubbing Alcohol" which >> tends to be 65-70% concentration. Is that sufficient and/or safe to use on >> electronic parts? Can anyone in the states recommend a good source for >> larger (e.g. gallon) quantities of 99% propanol? > > It might be good enough, but "rubbing alcohol" can be many things, many of > which are not isopropanol. 99% isopropanol won't stay 99% for very long > unless very carefully stored; it slowly absorbs water from air and ends up > about 90%. Interesting. I'll give it a try, then. >> Others have recommended Perc. Unless I'm confusing that with something >> similar-sounding, it's seriously nasty stuff. Back when flux remover >> actually worked, it was perc based. The EPA has clamped down on the use of >> perc, although I think it's still a component of "dry" cleaning. > > Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we used to use were based on > 1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC > (tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight > surprise) PERC isn't. Ah, that's correct. I had the two crossed-up. Trichlor is completely banned for consumer uses, AFAIK. Perc is not something I want to come into contact with either. The only good thing I can say about trichlor is that it actually removed flux. The alcohol based cleaners are a bad joke. Steve -- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 6 17:34:41 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 23:34:41 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D9CEA81.8090102@philpem.me.uk> On 06/04/11 22:06, Steven Hirsch wrote: > The only good thing I can say about trichlor is that it actually removed > flux. The alcohol based cleaners are a bad joke. Oh, too true -- I found this out to my cost while I was building the DiscFerret boards. "Electronics grade" isopropyl barely did a thing to the flux without a long soak and a good scrub with a toothbrush, followed by a rinse in fresh IPA. Now what *does* work well is Chemtronics' Flux-Off, which AIUI is acetone-based. Spray it on and the flux starts dripping off the board. There's a brush attached to the end of the aerosol can, but it's only really of use for reducing the amount of F-O you need. Only problem is, it's about ?8 for a 200ml can (!) What I really want is something that comes in N-litre drums or tin cans, evaporates a bit slower than Flux-Off but faster than IPA, and removes Multicore's rosin-based fluxes. Haven't found anything like that yet, though :( -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 17:29:29 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 19:29:29 -0300 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration References: Message-ID: <69535D9F7942497E9782FF65B57A32E2@portajara> > [1] One of the cats who chooses to live with me. Explanation of the neam > on request :-) Please =(^.^)= > I am conviced that there's a spacetime warp in my workshop. Things just > vanish. I was reparing an Epson dot matrix printer and I dropped a > plastic bush fromthe apepr feed mechanism. It bounced on the floor and > vanished. I must have looked for it for over half an hour, nothing. In > the end I spent 10 minues machining a new one from bras (thankfully there > was a second identical bush on the other end of the spindle that I coudl > take meausrements from. Muon ate it! [1] > Soem time later I was repairign an HP printer. I took the mains rocker > switch apart to clean the cotnacts and wipe years of gunge off the rocker > itself. I dropped one fo the moving contacts in abotu the smae place. It > vnaaished too. Again I spent a long time loong for it, no luck (and I > didn't find the bush from the Epson printer either). In he end I took > apart a 'random' swithc with about the smae spacing bwetween the > termainals and found the moving contacts were identical to the ones in > the HP siwthc. So that's what went back in it. Muon ate it! [1] :) Alexandre Souza :) [1]: A common said in Brazil is "o gato comeu" when something vanishes, which translate to "the cat ate it!". So, Muon is guilty! :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 17:36:45 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 19:36:45 -0300 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration References: , , <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> <4D9C6A30.27995.1255979@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <35AE3FCD8151428BB64145A749BD0A5D@portajara> > What do garage mechanics use for automotive degreaser in the > countries where Perc is banned? Gasoline From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Apr 6 18:51:02 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 00:51:02 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D9CFC66.3040107@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/04/2011 22:06, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we used to use were based >> on 1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC >> (tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight >> surprise) PERC isn't. > The only good thing I can say about trichlor is that it actually removed > flux. The alcohol based cleaners are a bad joke. Yes, and that's why (looks round to check for eavesdroppers) I keep a secret supply of the good stuff at the very back of the shelf. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Apr 6 19:40:25 2011 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 20:40:25 -0400 Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <951133.17503.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D9D07F9.1080307@hawkmountain.net> Chris M wrote: > Can't say anything other then it's in my car. It'll be the second "plotter" I've picked up for little or nothing (I was actually a good 10 miles from "ground zero" before I realized this thing is just a big ink jet printer, not a plotter). Anyway it should be good for making large format schematics and whatnot. Doesn't everybody love those? > Anyone w/docs or drivers please contact me. Perhaps offlist. > > > > > Which one ? I have a designjet 500ps. It has major ink leakage/spillage... and cleaning it was a task... I haven't put more than a few tests through it, so I don't know if the leaking will come back (don't know what caused it). Only problems mine has currently, is I broke the spring loaded 'foot' (but as mine has the stand, this is not an issue (I think it is only needed for table top operation ?) (I broke it trying to mount the printer back on the stand... not a fun operation alone) The other problem is the service station.... on some power ups, it errors on that unit. If I power off and back on, it's good. I have not been able to figure out why it has a problem... which I could find another, as it was one of the parts hit worst by the ink mess. Mine is a 24" model, but they made 36" models too. What model is yours ? -- Curt From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 19:57:17 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 19:57:17 -0500 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9CC8B0.7070602@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D9CC8B0.7070602@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D9D0BED.2020608@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > I have a variant of that. At the back corner of my bench is a stack of > perhaps a couple of dozen small round plastic tubs, about 70mm dia and > mostly around 25mm deep, which various dips and sauces from ready-meals > came in. When I take something apart, the first batch of bits goes in a > tub. The next batch goes in another tub, which sits on top of the first, > and so on. At any given time there are probably three or four stacks on > the go, as there are 3-4 projects/repairs waiting for parts (or time, or > further thought, or enthusiasm). > I do that with old fruit juice concentrate containers - those are large enough that I normally tuck a sheet of paper in with the parts containing helpful scribbles. I don't stack them though, as it could get ugly if they fell over :-) Ground coffee containers work well for larger odds and ends. cheers Jules From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 6 21:24:59 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 03:24:59 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9D207B.2010109@philpem.me.uk> On 06/04/11 20:16, Tony Duell wrote: > Perhaps I'd metter not mention the time I had a pair of EL34s with the > anode glowing bright orange/yellow. Of coruse I had managed to short out > the grid bias supply... Did they still work after you cooked the plates? One of these days I should hunt down a couple of cheap vacuum tubes and a book on VT amp design and build an audio amp... just for the hell of it. > I think 4 transistors failed, > the small-signal ones blew themselves apart. Oh yes, and then the fuse > burned out. Rule 1: the penalty for violating Ohm's Law is electrocution. Rule 2: a transistor will always blow in order to protect the fuse. Rule 3: If in doubt, see Rules 1 and 2. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From technobug at comcast.net Wed Apr 6 23:20:10 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 21:20:10 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99D06D6F-33CE-47AB-A803-5CEBDA4262E8@comcast.net> On Wed, 06 Apr 2011 23:34:41 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Oh, too true -- I found this out to my cost while I was building the > DiscFerret boards. "Electronics grade" isopropyl barely did a thing to > the flux without a long soak and a good scrub with a toothbrush, > followed by a rinse in fresh IPA. Deities! You are truly dedicated using India Pale Ale to rinse your boards. The waste boggle the mi........ Oh ipa = isopropyl alcohol. Nevermind. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Apr 7 01:05:07 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 07:05:07 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <84A224BCD0134895B63A4F8A23164AB9@RODSDEVSYSTEM> I can rember my Father who was an apprentice refridgeration engineer in the 1930's saying that they used trichloroethane (AKA Trike) to degrease compressor parts. The only problem was that when heated it turned into Posgege gas as used in the first world war and they all smoked in those days! Asked what they did. He said if they felt a bit woozy they went outside for a while and sat on a bench in the local graveyard just across the road! Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: 06 April 2011 19:45 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration On 06/04/2011 13:11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > The only place I've seen this is in the form of "Rubbing Alcohol" which > tends to be 65-70% concentration. Is that sufficient and/or safe to use > on electronic parts? Can anyone in the states recommend a good source > for larger (e.g. gallon) quantities of 99% propanol? It might be good enough, but "rubbing alcohol" can be many things, many of which are not isopropanol. 99% isopropanol won't stay 99% for very long unless very carefully stored; it slowly absorbs water from air and ends up about 90%. > Others have recommended Perc. Unless I'm confusing that with something > similar-sounding, it's seriously nasty stuff. Back when flux remover > actually worked, it was perc based. The EPA has clamped down on the use > of perc, although I think it's still a component of "dry" cleaning. Over here (UK) all the common flux removers we used to use were based on 1-1-1-TCE (trichloroethane). Not quite as horrible as PERC (tetrachloroethylene) in many ways but now banned, while (to my slight surprise) PERC isn't. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 19:42:29 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 17:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printeron the road In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <802180.50305.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 4/5/11, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >???Ahh, a > DesignJet 430-ish machine, a little baby one. :)? > They're really nice printers.? They typically go for > $300-700 or so.? Damn fine score to find one for > free.? Let us know if it works.? Maybe I'll try to > talk you out of it at some point if I wind up moving back up > north. > > ???Lucky guy... :o not that lucky. It don't do nothing when I plug it in and turn it on :( I have to make some room before I bring it in the house. I bought a service manual on ebay and downloaded some pdfs off hp.com. I was disappointed to find out it only takes paper up to 24". I could have sworn it could accommodate bigger paper :(. Maybe I could find another one and create a stretch 430! You're moving back up north. I'm heading west. I can't stand it here any more. 17 years of mostly misery. Heading for the midwest prolly, west coast eventually if the economy straitens out (please God). From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 19:53:58 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 17:53:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone need a Rainbow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <205786.30667.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I don't remember nor even know which models they are specifically (maybe you could explain it to me). I do seem to recall one having a "100+" on it, I hope INM. Something like that. I'm tempted to scarf 1 of the k/b's the guy has in Ct that I bought the 'bows off of (dropped mine dagnabbit). But I'll leave those open for those that buy these units. You will become my best friend in the whole world if you help me locate a color mon and card. But it looks like I'm you're only hope of becoming reunited w/a 'bow. Are you an atheist incidentally? If so, all deals are off! *********Wow, better not leave that hanging. It was a JOKE**************** --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > From: Geoffrey Reed > Subject: Re: anyone need a Rainbow? > To: "cctalk" > Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 6:21 AM > WHERE!?!?!?!??! > > 100, 100B or 100+ ??? > > I miss my 'bow.? It was one of the computers several > years ago that the > person who broke into my storage unit thought was useless > so they smashed it > onto the concrete floor, then tipped my Honda CB900F onto > it :( > > > On 4/5/11 4:54 PM, "Chris M" > wrote: > > > I have (2) I will be getting rid of soon. > > > > No k/b's (I know where you can get them though, if the > guy is willing to > > ship). Both have h/d's, but neither will boot (as far > as a quick test showed). > > Make offer. > >? I also have (2) mono monitors, but have screen > mold. Make offer. > > > > > >? ? ??? > > > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 19:56:45 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 17:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <432472.99341.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <593718.44041.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, then it could just be a power supply failure. Start > with the basics, check the fuse, etc. It's a fairly standard > swtichmode power supply design, IIRC. > > -Ian Right, I will. When I can bring it in the house. Tanks. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 20:03:15 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 18:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: probably OT, but still cool: found an HP large format printer on the road In-Reply-To: <4D9D07F9.1080307@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <441317.64908.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Mine is a 24" model, but they made 36" models too. > > What model is yours 24" 430. It can (maybe already has been) upgraded to a 5**c (color capable) by the addition of a rom-simm. I could swear I saw the color cartridge in it. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 20:14:39 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 18:14:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers Message-ID: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I know I have Quick Basic 3.n, and maybe even Quick C somewhere. Quick C had become popular w/developers (not for primary use) long after M$ canned it. Not sure why, maybe they just liked the IDE. And liked using it for quick and dirty tasks. I spied QB 4.5 on eBay, brand new (someone placed a bid, I won't at this juncture). Is there any big difference between early versions of QB or QC? Early version of Visual C++ for instance are doggish compared to later ones, but that's a different world. What about other M$ products, like Professional Basic (as compared to QB)? Any Borland/Turbo fans still out there? Already straying offtopic, a book I own states that Delphi could be used to write Visual Basic, but not the other way around. I'll assume Quick C could be used to write Quick Basic, but what about the other way around? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 7 01:57:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 23:57:04 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <99D06D6F-33CE-47AB-A803-5CEBDA4262E8@comcast.net> References: , <99D06D6F-33CE-47AB-A803-5CEBDA4262E8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D9CFDD0.26452.366019E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2011 at 21:20, CRC wrote: > Deities! You are truly dedicated using India Pale Ale to rinse your > boards. The waste boggle the mi........ Oh ipa = isopropyl alcohol. I've used denatured ethanol to clean off soldering flux--it seems to work better than isopropanol, but still leaves a sticky powdery residue around. Perc washes it all off. There's a YouTube video comparing a Perc degreaser to a "non chlorinated" green substitute made with isopropanol and acetone. No comparison at all. The "green" stuff is garbage. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 7 01:54:30 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 07:54:30 +0100 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9D0BED.2020608@gmail.com> References: <4D9CC8B0.7070602@dunnington.plus.com> <4D9D0BED.2020608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D9D5FA6.7070908@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/04/2011 01:57, Jules Richardson wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> I have a variant of that. At the back corner of my bench is a stack >> of perhaps a couple of dozen small round plastic tubs > I do that with old fruit juice concentrate containers - those are large > enough that I normally tuck a sheet of paper in with the parts > containing helpful scribbles. I don't stack them though, as it could get > ugly if they fell over :-) That's the good thing about the little tubs -- they're tapered so they fit inside each other. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 7 02:18:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 00:18:42 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <84A224BCD0134895B63A4F8A23164AB9@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: , <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com>, <84A224BCD0134895B63A4F8A23164AB9@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <4D9D02E2.16247.379D126@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2011 at 7:05, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Asked what they did. He said if they felt a bit woozy they went > outside for a while and sat on a bench in the local graveyard just > across the road! Yes, that's an accepted response for minor phosgene exposure. Lest you think that Trike is nasty when burned, consider that almost any chlorinated hydrocarbon as well as most chlorinated plastics such as PVC will produce phosgene when burned. That's also one of the reasons that flame refrigerant leak detectors are no longer used-- burning (actually decomposing) Freon in a hot flame produces phosgene. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 06:55:24 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 07:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: References: <617318.68341.qm@web121607.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: > Steve. This dead spot problem is exactly the same problem Tony and i have > been grappling with for the past couple of months! Check past posts on thiz > forum. > > Despite lots of tests, replacements and disassemblies we never got to the > bottom of it. In the end i sourced a replacement drive. I cleaned up the loading mechanism on the drive in the second Lisa and re-ran LisaTest 3.0. Everything passed 100%! Was just about to order a bunch of edge connectors to rebuild the main wiring harness when I thought to check eBay. Turns out that John Woodall had NOS harnesses available complete for less than I probably would have paid for the parts to fabricate them. I broke down and ordered one of his Sun Remarketing SCSI adapter kits for the Lisa. What is needed in terms of device driver support to use this with Lisa Office? Also had a chance to dig into the second Lisa a bit deeper. Although the corrosion on the metal chassis parts is far worse than the one on the bench, damage to the motherboard is nowhere near as severe. I can only guess it was stored on its left side or back. It should be possible to get one reliably working unit out of the two by swapping parts around. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 06:58:50 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 07:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> One serious issue with the diskette drive: It has one or more "dead" >> spots in its rotation. If it stops at such a point it fails to spin up >> again at the next access. When it spits the diskette out with an error, I >> give the spindle a small push with a screwdriver, reinsert and it picks up >> from that point. >> >> Hopefully folks have some sage advice for dealing with dead spots? It's >> not related to the excess pressure on the head - it doesn't even try to >> spin. There's absolutely no sound or activity. > > Interesting. This sounds liek a stock fault with these Lisa drives, I > think Terry had much the same problem. (snip) > I wouidl be interested to hear if you manage to repair it. Since the drive in the second unit works correctly, I'm probably not going to spend any time on it. There's plenty of work ahead replacing all the wiring harnesses and cleaning the case and chassis. If someone put one of these balky drives in your hands, would you have any interest in tinkering with it? Steve -- From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 7 07:06:57 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 05:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <61102.87438.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/7/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > I broke down and ordered one of his Sun Remarketing SCSI > adapter kits for the Lisa. What is needed in terms of > device driver support to use this with Lisa Office? A miracle. Those don't work with Lisa Office. You need a Profile, or a Widget for that (or an IDEFile or some other parallel drive that emulates the Profile). The SCSI cards work in MacWorks though, although the Lisa cannot boot from it - you still need to boot MacWorks itself from floppy, then the rest of the process can complete from the SCSI disk. Remember that the newest system software supported by MacWorks is 6.0.3. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 7 10:55:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 09:55:42 -0600 Subject: Some more Lisas In-Reply-To: <30A171C927EC474DB66E294F06C937B4@massey.ac.nz> References: <005b01cbf377$116439f0$342cadd0$@on.net> <4D9C09D3.4030909@brouhaha.com><20110406065204.GA5118@Update.UU.SE> <4D9C2175.7040203@brouhaha.com> <30A171C927EC474DB66E294F06C937B4@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: In article <30A171C927EC474DB66E294F06C937B4 at massey.ac.nz>, "terry stewart" writes: > Just when you thought you'd seen enough Lisas. This post from alker33 on > the Vintage Computer Forums! > > http://alker33.wordpress.com/2011/04/05/my-apple-lisa-collection/ I think its very cool that he fixes them up and trades them to other vintage collectors. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 7 13:39:38 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 11:39:38 -0700 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D9E04EA.9030606@bitsavers.org> On 4/6/11 6:14 PM, Chris M wrote: > Any Borland/Turbo fans still out there? > I've been working on getting all the Borland manuals from the 80's up on bitsavers. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 17:15:15 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 18:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: <61102.87438.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <61102.87438.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 4/7/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> >> I broke down and ordered one of his Sun Remarketing SCSI >> adapter kits for the Lisa. What is needed in terms of >> device driver support to use this with Lisa Office? > > A miracle. Those don't work with Lisa Office. You need a Profile, or a > Widget for that (or an IDEFile or some other parallel drive that > emulates the Profile). The SCSI cards work in MacWorks though, although > the Lisa cannot boot from it - you still need to boot MacWorks itself > from floppy, then the rest of the process can complete from the SCSI > disk. Remember that the newest system software supported by MacWorks is > 6.0.3. Oh, well. Should be nice to have anyway. I have a couple of ProFiles in varying states of soundness and plan to purchase one of the IDE adapters in the future. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 7 23:01:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 21:01:31 -0700 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly Message-ID: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com> An interesting article today: http://bit.ly/hRMBsl South Carolina legislators are proposing that the state allow manufacturing and sale of federally-proscribed incandescents. Why not? --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Apr 8 00:25:45 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 22:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > An interesting article today: > > http://bit.ly/hRMBsl > > South Carolina legislators are proposing that the state allow > manufacturing and sale of federally-proscribed incandescents. > > Why not? I got a little chuckle about how they'd be legal only in South Carolina. It reads a bit like the various efforts to exempt firearms that don't leave the state to be unregulated by the feds. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Apr 7 14:12:10 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2011 12:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone need a Rainbow? In-Reply-To: <205786.30667.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <610807.36278.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> sorry, I'm in New Jersey. 30$ for the unit alone (like I said, I know the guy that has k/b's. Not sure if he'll ship. I guess I'd have to call him). 15$ for the moldy monitors. From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Thu Apr 7 19:39:27 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 20:39:27 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... Message-ID: <4D9E20FF020000E40001D370@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> I am restoring a PDP-11/34 and am currently adding an RX-01 drive to it in order to boot RT-11. I have already located a copy of RT-11 on an LSI-11 system and have made a bootable RX-01 floppy (an M7946 was installed on the LSI-11 to do this). This disk was tested on the LSI-11 system by asserting BHALT, entering a bootstrap via ODT, and booting from the disk (which was, at the time, the only device): it boots properly and runs RT-11 version 5.04SJ as expected. An M7846 RX-11 controller was installed in SPC slot 9 of the 11/34, the bootstrap loaded at 1000 via the front panel (and verified), and a boot attempted. When STARTed at 1000, the RUN light comes on, the RX-01 head engages (as evident from the solenoid), and you can hear the heads advancing a track or two then it stops: the "SR DISP" led and the RUN led go out, and the display reads "005134". Examining the bootstrap area (1000) shows the bootstrap was replaced by data. Does anyone know what the "005134" code means? I search through RT-11 docs and can't find anything on error codes or such and I'm hoping this will help with the debugging. Thanks! Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Apr 8 03:48:42 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 10:48:42 +0200 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4D9E20FF020000E40001D370@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> References: <4D9E20FF020000E40001D370@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Message-ID: Hello Mark. > I am restoring a PDP-11/34 and am currently adding > an RX-01 drive to it in order to boot RT-11. Always nice. > I have already located a copy of RT-11 on an LSI-11 system > and have made a bootable RX-01 floppy (an M7946 was > installed on the LSI-11 to do this). This disk was tested on the > LSI-11 system by asserting BHALT, entering a bootstrap via > ODT, and booting from the disk (which was, at the time, the > only device): it boots properly and runs RT-11 version 5.04SJ > as expected. OK, so far so good. > An M7846 RX-11 controller was installed in SPC slot 9 of the > 11/34, the bootstrap loaded at 1000 via the front panel > (and verified), and a boot attempted. > > When STARTed at 1000, the RUN light comes on, the RX-01 > head engages (as evident from the solenoid), That is because of the system reset. Every time you press the buttons CTRL and INIT you reset the system and the heads will engage / disengage (if you have the "calculator-style" keypad. The 3-button panel version of the 11/34 has an INIT push button (?) that shows the same behavior. > and you can hear the heads advancing a track or two then it > stops: the "SR DISP" led and the RUN led go out, and the > display reads "005134". Examining the bootstrap area (1000) > shows the bootstrap was replaced by data. Are you sure you hear the heads *stepping* ? > Does anyone know what the "005134" code means? > I search through RT-11 docs and can't find anything on error > codes or such and I'm hoping this will help with the debugging. That is not an error code but just the address where the CPU stopped. By looking at the code you might be able to figure out what the problem is. The RX11 (M7846) does not use DMA (NPR), so check that the NPR wire on the backplane is present (pins CA1 - CB1) or check that the RX11 module has connection by a trace on the module between those 2 pins. > Thanks! > > > Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. > Niagara College, Canada > 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 > Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 > > (905) 735-2211 x.7629 > E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca > URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele > Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Apr 8 06:18:31 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 07:18:31 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4D9E20FF020000E40001D370@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> References: <4D9E20FF020000E40001D370@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Message-ID: <4D9EEF07.8070506@compsys.to> >Mark Csele wrote: >I am restoring a PDP-11/34 and am currently adding an RX-01 drive to it in order to boot RT-11. > > Approximately 30 years ago, I had access to an LSI-11 with a DSD 440 which was beside a PDP-11/34 which included a Unibus controller for the DSD 440. It was possible to boot the same floppy on both the Qbus and Unibus systems in the same manner that you are attempting with your RX01. However, I understand hardware far too little to help on the hardware side of the fence. And that usually includes boot code since there is usually only hardware ODT to help. >I have already located a copy of RT-11 on an LSI-11 system and have made a bootable RX-01 floppy (an M7946 was installed on the LSI-11 to do this). This disk was tested on the LSI-11 system by asserting BHALT, entering a bootstrap via ODT, and booting from the disk (which was, at the time, the only device): it boots properly and runs RT-11 version 5.04SJ as expected. > > Just in case something strange is going on, I suggest that after you boot the RT11SJ monitor, try it again using both RT-11 commands: BOOT RT11SJ and BOOT RT11SJ/FOREIGN If both boot correctly (the second will zero the time), then your floppy boot code is probably correct for Qbus systems. And since (as Henk mentioned) the RX01 does not use DMA, the code used could be identical for a Unibus system. As additional information for below, boot code for RT-11 is: (a) In block zero as the primary hardware boot code (b) In blocks 2 through 5 for the secondary boot code Block 1 contains some directory information, including volume and owner. Block 6 is always the start of the directory segments. >An M7846 RX-11 controller was installed in SPC slot 9 of the 11/34, the bootstrap loaded at 1000 via the front panel (and verified), and a boot attempted. > >When STARTed at 1000, the RUN light comes on, the RX-01 head engages (as evident from the solenoid), and you can hear the heads advancing a track or two then it stops: the "SR DISP" led and the RUN led go out, and the display reads "005134". Examining the bootstrap area (1000) shows the bootstrap was replaced by data. > >Does anyone know what the "005134" code means? I search through RT-11 docs and can't find anything on error codes or such and I'm hoping this will help with the debugging. > > Hopefully, Henk answered your question. If you don't have a hardware problem, then let us know and we can attempt to figure out how to use hardware ODT to step through the code. Fortunately, with the LSI-11, you can make up a floppy which has a HALT instruction inserted to allow you to test the PDP-11/34 system. Assuming that Henk's suggestion that the PDP-11/34 is displaying the address 5134, then the boot code is using the secondary bootstrap program in blocks 2 through 5 which were read into memory starting at location 1000 by the primary bootstrap program in block zero. This seems to suggest that there might be problems with the secondary bootstrap program related to the Unibus. As far as I remember, the primary hardware bootstrap program is always read into and executes starting in memory location zero, then jumps (or branches) to location 1000 to execute the secondary bootstrap program. This would suggest that execution of the primary bootstrap program was successful. Note (as you probably already know, but others reading this thread may not) that all addresses are in octal. Let us know if you are successful. If you require more help, please ask. Are you using the PDP-11 hardware for yourself or as a teaching aid? Do you have any interest in latter versions of RT-11, especially the Y2K compliant version? Would a Y3K compliant version of RT-11 be of interest? Jerome Fine From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 8 07:19:20 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 05:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <952911.74503.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 4/8/11, David Griffith wrote: > > South Carolina legislators are proposing that the > state allow > > manufacturing and sale of federally-proscribed > incandescents. > > > > Why not? > > I got a little chuckle about how they'd be legal only in > South Carolina. > It reads a bit like the various efforts to exempt firearms > that don't > leave the state to be unregulated by the feds. Hehe. And at the border the've got road blocks checking cars for illegal light bulbs. "Posession with intent to illuminate" -Ian From jonas at otter.se Fri Apr 8 03:04:28 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:04:28 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: <22aa0c7401d78553ec414259a993d8fb@otter.se> > [1] One of the cats who chooses to live with me. Explanation of the > neam > on request :-) "Mew-on" ? Training a cat sounds like a futile exercise, unless the cat actually wants to learn whatever you are trying to teach it. I would have thought that cats would much rather learn how to teleport into birds' nests, or how to get someone to make a machine to replicate mice. > > I am conviced that there's a spacetime warp in my workshop. Things > just > vanish. I was reparing an Epson dot matrix printer and I dropped a > plastic bush fromthe apepr feed mechanism. It bounced on the floor > and There are spacetime warps everywhere, in everybody's workshops. And ask anybody with a washing machine whether they always find both socks of every pair. Either washing machines are designed to eat socks or else there is a spacetime warp in every washing machine. Have you read "Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency" by Douglas Adams? If not, I can recommend it. More down-to-earth, I have read that putting a ladies' nylon stocking over the end of the vacuum cleaner tube and vacuuming the workshop is a good way to find small parts that have escaped. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Fri Apr 8 03:09:50 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:09:50 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: <6716b69772fb823621e49393d39c0adb@otter.se> > I would claim that you're uch better audio designer from actually > designing soemthing (even thoguh you had transistors fly across the > room) > than you would have been if you'd never had a go. Definitely. I did go on to design and build a preamp and power amp that worked quite well, and didn't blow up. > Perhaps I'd metter not mention the time I had a pair of EL34s with > the > anode glowing bright orange/yellow. Of coruse I had managed to short > out > the grid bias supply... I suppose they still worked after a fashion afterwards? If that had happened to a transistor (except possibly a 2N3055) I wouldn't have expected it to work afterwards. > Never made _that_ mistake again. The beat learning experiences are the mistakes one makes. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Fri Apr 8 03:21:19 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:21:19 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: <33ae07b30720501f0a9002e50a0be641@otter.se> > Not really. The glass parts wil lcome off (interchangeable prism and > focussing screen), but it's acloth focal plane shutter, shich is not > the > best thing to flood with lighter fluid. I'd also have to relubricate > all > the bits that need oil anyway. > > My expeirence is that flood-cleaning meter movements doesn't work > eitehr. Well, it would have been too good to be true... Soemthing else that I have discovered the bad way is that focussing screens, which are often made of plastic, do *not* like alcohol. They go all foggy and are permanently ruined. > It's perhaps worth mentioningthat a lot of small gear trains, in > particualr clocks and watches, but also chutter times, etc, are > supposed > to run with the teeth _dry_, no oil. Yes, you put a drop on each > pivot, > but nowhre else. The self-timer on my Pontiac Baby Lynx camera had started sticking after many years of disuse. Some lighter fluid cured that nicely. I did put a drop of oil on the axles of the gears and AFAIK it still works. > Now that I didn't realise (not that I normally use silicone > lubricants), > thanks! One learns a lot by reading mailing lists :-) I haven't tried it myself but I can well believe it is true. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Fri Apr 8 03:30:02 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:30:02 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: > . . . and my Nikonos came with a small tube of silicone lubricant to > put > on the O-ring that keeps the lens mount watertight. That's interesting. Could I be misinformed? OTOH glass is silicon to a great extent, so the idea that silicones should bond with glass doesn't sound unlikely. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Fri Apr 8 03:41:44 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:41:44 +0200 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration Message-ID: > A good degreaser, but not so tender on plastics. > > In the old days, I'd just use some carbon tet. Argh, I was wrong. Perchloroethylene is allowed here and used for dry cleaning, although there is a bill to ban it from the opposition in the Swedish Parliament. Trichloroethylene OTOH has been banned since the 90s. *That* smells nice too ;-) There used to be a washing device for car parts at Volvo which used hot trichloroethylene which you sprayed on the part to be cleaned. Amazing how fast it removed all traces of grease, underseal etc from a part from the front suspension of my parents' Volvo 544... The sand blasting thingy alongside took care of all the rust in short order. /Jonas From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 8 07:47:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 08:47:27 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> On 4/8/11 1:25 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> An interesting article today: >> >> http://bit.ly/hRMBsl >> >> South Carolina legislators are proposing that the state allow >> manufacturing and sale of federally-proscribed incandescents. >> >> Why not? > > I got a little chuckle about how they'd be legal only in South Carolina. > It reads a bit like the various efforts to exempt firearms that don't > leave the state to be unregulated by the feds. Sounds more like a bunch of long-obsolete people in a long-obsolete state trying to hang onto a long-obsolete technology in a typical "we don't like anything new" mindset. The only thing worse than old farts is old farts with positions in government. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shumaker at att.net Fri Apr 8 09:03:09 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 07:03:09 -0700 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9F159D.3000606@att.net> most folks would say that govt is by definition "old farts." they even have special programs to try and seek out (entice?) younger employees s2 On 4/8/2011 5:47 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/8/11 1:25 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>> An interesting article today: >>> >>> http://bit.ly/hRMBsl >>> >>> South Carolina legislators are proposing that the state allow >>> manufacturing and sale of federally-proscribed incandescents. >>> >>> Why not? >> >> I got a little chuckle about how they'd be legal only in South Carolina. >> It reads a bit like the various efforts to exempt firearms that don't >> leave the state to be unregulated by the feds. > > Sounds more like a bunch of long-obsolete people in a long-obsolete > state trying to hang onto a long-obsolete technology in a typical "we > don't like anything new" mindset. > > The only thing worse than old farts is old farts with positions in > government. > > -Dave > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 10:18:38 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:18:38 -0500 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9F274E.8000404@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > An interesting article today: > > http://bit.ly/hRMBsl > > South Carolina legislators are proposing that the state allow > manufacturing and sale of federally-proscribed incandescents. Well it's simple tech without complex manufacturing, materials processing and disposal, and of course without the 'cost' of shipping them from far-flung lands. That all seems like a good thing. They should really be making them up here in MN, though, where for half the year their inefficiency during use helps to keep buildings warm :) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 8 10:57:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 08:57:04 -0700 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2011 at 8:47, Dave McGuire wrote: > Sounds more like a bunch of long-obsolete people in a long-obsolete > state trying to hang onto a long-obsolete technology in a typical "we > don't like anything new" mindset. So why aren't CFLs being made in SC? Would we even be talking about banning incandescents if they weren't made by slave labor in China? I don't much like them myself--their reliability is overstated. In a corner of the kitchen, I've got 4 R30 recessed fixtures, divided 2 incandescent (near the pantry so I can tell a can of tomatoes from a can of pork and beans (CFLs take awhile to come up to full brightness) and 2 CFL (less critical to cuisine). The two incandescents are still working fine after 10 years; the CFLs (name brand, GE and Westinghouse) have been replaced several times. Most CFLs are garbage and hugely wasteful. I used to scavenge the components from the bases, but gave up after I accumulated a pile of the things (funny, they were supposed to last longer than that). Why on earth aren't they made with replaceable fluorescent tubes like the old days? Most CFLs are designed to be operated in a base-down position (heat issues), yet the number of actual applications in the average home where that situation presents itself is probably much less common than the base-up situation. Being forced into buying garbage just rubs me the wrong way. Show me a manufacturer who will *guarantee* (not pro-rated either) 5000 hours of trouble-free illumination from a CFL and I'll bite. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 8 11:03:13 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:03:13 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> On 4/8/11 11:57 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would we even be talking about banning incandescents if they weren't > made by slave labor in China? Surely you don't believe that's the only reason. Heck, I'd personally never even considered where or how they were made. I just look at the "100W worth of light for 12W of energy" part, and it's a no-brainer. Besides...What ISN'T made by slave labor in China nowadays? > I don't much like them myself--their reliability is overstated. In a > corner of the kitchen, I've got 4 R30 recessed fixtures, divided 2 > incandescent (near the pantry so I can tell a can of tomatoes from a > can of pork and beans (CFLs take awhile to come up to full > brightness) and 2 CFL (less critical to cuisine). The two > incandescents are still working fine after 10 years; the CFLs (name > brand, GE and Westinghouse) have been replaced several times. I replaced all of mine about 2.5 years ago and have had one fail, and that was in an outdoor fixture. I didn't buy cheap ones. ;) I'm honestly surprised I've not lost more of them, with all the thunderstorm activity in my area. > Most CFLs are garbage and hugely wasteful. I used to scavenge the > components from the bases, but gave up after I accumulated a pile of > the things (funny, they were supposed to last longer than that). Why > on earth aren't they made with replaceable fluorescent tubes like the > old days? Profits. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 8 11:29:29 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 09:29:29 -0700 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: No, it's not a 'no brainer' for every application. As Chuck was saying, the color of the light can be important. In my office at home I have a piece of art on the wall that I illuminate with the only incandescent in the room. The 'warm' light looks better with the brass. I also mix CFLs and incandescents in the bathroom, primarily for my wife's benefit. The other fixtures in my office are now populated with LEDs. Part of it is the energy savings, but more importantly was the temperature control. The temperature of my office would go up by over ten degrees (F) when I turned on the incandescent lights! Then fire up my VAX 4000-300 and it was truly a sauna. (I moved the VAX into a larger room and turned down the heating vents.) I think it's political posturing to declare a benign technology to be unlawful. Let the market decide - if CFLs are truly a 'no brainer' then that's what people will buy. (That can be read several ways, and I mean all of them.) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 9:03 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly On 4/8/11 11:57 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would we even be talking about banning incandescents if they weren't > made by slave labor in China? Surely you don't believe that's the only reason. Heck, I'd personally never even considered where or how they were made. I just look at the "100W worth of light for 12W of energy" part, and it's a no-brainer. [snip] From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 8 11:33:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 09:33:35 -0700 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9ED66F.19245.432CD6@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2011 at 12:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > Surely you don't believe that's the only reason. Heck, I'd > personally never even considered where or how they were made. I just > look at the "100W worth of light for 12W of energy" part, and it's a > no-brainer. There's the ROI aspect. I could perhaps see replacing end-of-life incandescent bulbs with similarly-priced CFLs if the lifetime and price were comparable. But it's downright foolish to replace a lamp in a closet or stairway with a CFL "just because" where the lamp sees probably less than 10 hours use per year. In that case, replacing with the cheapest source of illumination, regardless of efficiency makes the most sense. You can dispose of an incandescent by tossing it into the trash. Not so for CFLs--and I suspect there are some government subsidies spent dealing with that problem. In an all-electric (we have no access to natural gas and I won't allow propane into the house) household, lighting accounts for a miniscule portion of the energy budget. You'll get far more bang for your buck by replacing the water heater with a well-insulated energy- efficient model--or by turning down the heating thermostat a few degrees during wintertime. Or by using a fan instead of central air conditioning during the summertime. Or just get rid of your big-screen plasma TV... --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 11:34:34 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 11:34:34 -0500 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9F391A.6070603@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Being forced into buying garbage just rubs me the wrong way. Me too. Particularly when a lot of it is done under the guise of "saving the planet", and it's not at all clear that CFLs do that when the bigger picture beyond point-of-use is taken into account. > Show me > a manufacturer who will *guarantee* (not pro-rated either) 5000 hours > of trouble-free illumination from a CFL and I'll bite. ... and that they're not lying about the "equivalent wattage" ratings, and that the illumination that it gives is of a reasonable quality rather than having a sickly color-cast to it. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 8 11:44:12 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:44:12 -0600 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Would we even be talking about banning incandescents if they weren't > made by slave labor in China? Its completely stupid that incandescents are being banned anyway. If the user wants to pay more for the warm lighting they provide, that's their choice. Noone and nothing is harmed except the purchaser's wallet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 8 11:46:33 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:46:33 -0600 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <6716b69772fb823621e49393d39c0adb@otter.se> References: <6716b69772fb823621e49393d39c0adb@otter.se> Message-ID: <4D9F3BE9.80802@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/8/2011 2:09 AM, jonas at otter.se wrote: > I suppose they still worked after a fashion afterwards? If that had > happened to a transistor (except possibly a 2N3055) I wouldn't have > expected it to work afterwards. > >> Never made _that_ mistake again. > > The beat learning experiences are the mistakes one makes. and you still *LIVE* after the event. > /Jonas > Ben. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 8 11:46:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:46:36 -0600 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9ED66F.19245.432CD6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> <4D9ED66F.19245.432CD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4D9ED66F.19245.432CD6 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Or just get rid of your big-screen plasma TV... ...or your PDP-11. Just sayin'. If these control freak nazis had their way, they'd ban anything with a linear power supply. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 8 11:49:25 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 09:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <563448.86523.qm@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Most CFLs are garbage and hugely wasteful. I used to > scavenge the > components from the bases, but gave up after I accumulated > a pile of > the things (funny, they were supposed to last longer than > that). Why > on earth aren't they made with replaceable fluorescent > tubes like the > old days? I've had to replace a lot of them too. Due to the fact that I usually forget to turn the lights off in the basement (shop area has normal flourescents, but the basement main lights are standard edison base), I installed CFL's, thinking it would save a little electricity. They haven't lasted very long - and as they've died I've put the incandescents back in. What's troubling to me about CFL's is that a couple of the failed ones have been burnt and blackened around the base. One was melted badly. While I know the risk of fire is low, it's still troubiling to see the electronics fail so catastrophically. And these were GE branded bulbs (not like GE actually makes, the things, but still). So, those CFL's have all died in about two and a half years. I think there is still one left. The standard flourescent fixtures I installed eight years ago are still working perfectly, on their original bulbs. Basically, the only way they're going to achieve their goal of getting everybody to use CFL's is to ban the alternatives. CFL's just don't work properly - and if they don't ban incandescents, nobody would use them. As for proper disposal - I never even thought about it. I've been chucking them in the trash - like I'm sure everyone else does. So, in summary - using resources to make hazardous material containing devices that don't last long in their intended purpose, necessitating replacement, plus the fact that maybe 1% of those failed devices gets disposed of properly... Yup! Sounds environmentally friendly to me! -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 8 11:53:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:53:29 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9ED66F.19245.432CD6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> <4D9ED66F.19245.432CD6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9F3D89.2060001@neurotica.com> On 4/8/11 12:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Surely you don't believe that's the only reason. Heck, I'd >> personally never even considered where or how they were made. I just >> look at the "100W worth of light for 12W of energy" part, and it's a >> no-brainer. > > There's the ROI aspect. I could perhaps see replacing end-of-life > incandescent bulbs with similarly-priced CFLs if the lifetime and > price were comparable. But it's downright foolish to replace a lamp > in a closet or stairway with a CFL "just because" where the lamp sees > probably less than 10 hours use per year. In that case, replacing > with the cheapest source of illumination, regardless of efficiency > makes the most sense. Of course. Most of the lighting in my house is in fairly heavy use. I've not replaced things like hall lights which are almost never used. > You can dispose of an incandescent by tossing it into the trash. Not > so for CFLs--and I suspect there are some government subsidies spent > dealing with that problem. There's that. Although, the one CFL that did die on me got thrown into the trash. It seemed to go just fine. ;) > In an all-electric (we have no access to natural gas and I won't > allow propane into the house) household, lighting accounts for a > miniscule portion of the energy budget. You'll get far more bang for > your buck by replacing the water heater with a well-insulated energy- > efficient model--or by turning down the heating thermostat a few > degrees during wintertime. My power bill dropped by about $30/mo, but then there's a LOT of lighting in there, and remember there's heat removal cost (year-round in FL) as well as light generation cost. The still-functional incandescent bulbs were put into a box, where they will stay until I sell them on eBay in a decade or two. =) > Or by using a fan instead of central air conditioning during the summertime. Not here. With ~3.5-4kW worth of computers running 24x7, we run A/C year-round. With how hot our part of Florida has become over the past 5-6 years, we'd probably still be running A/C year-round even without the computers. It's unbelievable. That's the big reason we're trying so hard to move back up north. > Or just get rid of your big-screen plasma TV... There's that too. :) Thankfully I don't watch TV! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 8 11:55:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:55:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9F3DEE.1010108@neurotica.com> On 4/8/11 12:44 PM, Richard wrote: >> Would we even be talking about banning incandescents if they weren't >> made by slave labor in China? > > Its completely stupid that incandescents are being banned anyway. If > the user wants to pay more for the warm lighting they provide, that's > their choice. Noone and nothing is harmed except the purchaser's wallet. I agree 100%. The warmth or color caste issues are moot, with dozens of colors of CFLs available, but the point is, the public should make the choice, not the government. This "nanny government" crap is really getting out of control. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 8 12:27:33 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 10:27:33 -0700 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F3D89.2060001@neurotica.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> <4D9ED66F.19245.432CD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3D89.2060001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 9:53 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly > [snip] > > > Or by using a fan instead of central air conditioning during the > summertime. > > Not here. With ~3.5-4kW worth of computers running 24x7, we run A/C > year-round. With how hot our part of Florida has become over the past > 5-6 years, we'd probably still be running A/C year-round even without > the computers. It's unbelievable. That's the big reason we're trying > so hard to move back up north. > Wow, sounds like we should pass a law against living in Florida! -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 8 12:32:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 13:32:53 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> <4D9ED66F.19245.432CD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3D89.2060001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9F46C5.5010902@neurotica.com> On 4/8/11 1:27 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> Or by using a fan instead of central air conditioning during the >> summertime. >> >> Not here. With ~3.5-4kW worth of computers running 24x7, we run A/C >> year-round. With how hot our part of Florida has become over the past >> 5-6 years, we'd probably still be running A/C year-round even without >> the computers. It's unbelievable. That's the big reason we're trying >> so hard to move back up north. > > Wow, sounds like we should pass a law against living in Florida! -- Ian My sentiments exactly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 8 12:52:09 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 13:52:09 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> <4D9ED66F.19245.432CD6@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3D89.2060001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9F4B49.1000007@atarimuseum.com> Woo hoo... more products to be made in China! You do realize GE packed up and shipped its entire incandesent factory to China, along with about 95% of its other operations, if they didn't have to have repairman physically here in the US, GE would've bugged out 100% from the country, why not, they made $14B last year and paid next to nothing in taxes, so who better to bring into the White House to help with the economic recovery then the head of a company that has all but abandoned the US labor market... viva la irony! Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire >> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 9:53 AM >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly >> >> > [snip] > >>> Or by using a fan instead of central air conditioning during the >>> >> summertime. >> >> Not here. With ~3.5-4kW worth of computers running 24x7, we run A/C >> year-round. With how hot our part of Florida has become over the past >> 5-6 years, we'd probably still be running A/C year-round even without >> the computers. It's unbelievable. That's the big reason we're trying >> so hard to move back up north. >> >> > > Wow, sounds like we should pass a law against living in Florida! -- Ian > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 8 12:56:48 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 18:56:48 +0100 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F391A.6070603@gmail.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F391A.6070603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D9F4C60.4020301@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/04/2011 17:34, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > Me too. Particularly when a lot of it is done under the guise of "saving > the planet", and it's not at all clear that CFLs do that when the bigger > picture beyond point-of-use is taken into account. True, there's a lot of nasty stuff used in making CFLs, more than in incandescents. >> a manufacturer who will *guarantee* (not pro-rated either) 5000 hours >> of trouble-free illumination from a CFL and I'll bite. > > ... and that they're not lying about the "equivalent wattage" ratings, Dave's mention of 100W of light for 12W of power is way off. I'm not sure he believed that, but it's not far from what some manufacturers have claimed. The truth is that a typical /new/ CFL will give an improvement of at best about 5:1 (equivalent of a 100W incandescent from a 20W CFL) and the light output drops a lot over time. That's why over here manufacturers are now supposed to quote the light output rather than the equivalent wattage, and if they make comparisons are supposed to also state the light output of whatever incandescent they're comparing it to. I doubt many consumers have much clue about light output numbers, though. Wikipedia says over the life of a CFL the output drops to typically 70%-80%. My own measurements say it's much worse than that, and I've had to replace CFLs that emitted less than 50% of their original output. > and that the illumination that it gives is of a reasonable quality > rather than having a sickly color-cast to it. It's possible to get "daylight" CFLs that are better if a little more expensive, and it's possible for a premium price to get ones that have an almost continuous spectrum, as needed by photographers. But most "daylight" ones, even ones sold at twice the price of "ordinary" CFLs, have a pretty awful colour balance and a lot of gaps in the spectrum. You can see the effect on some artificial dyes on artificial fabrics, which can actually look a completely different colour (not just a different shade) between daylight and CFL light. Nightmare for graduation pictures (I had to re-shoot a whole set once because the hoods on some gowns came out gold instead of green). Worst of all (for a photographer) is that different brands can have different phosphor mixes and need radically different correction filters. Over here CFLs are required to be marked (at least on the packaging) with a colour rendering index number that denotes how "good" they are on a scale of 1-100. Most score 60 or so. Some "daylight" ones score between 70 and 80. Really good ones score up to 90. Incandescents easily score 100. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 8 13:59:37 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 14:59:37 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com><4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F391A.6070603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3C6146DC3AE345279A86430D594B55E5@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 12:34 PM Subject: Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Show me >> a manufacturer who will *guarantee* (not pro-rated either) 5000 hours of >> trouble-free illumination from a CFL and I'll bite. > > ... and that they're not lying about the "equivalent wattage" ratings, and > that the illumination that it gives is of a reasonable quality rather than > having a sickly color-cast to it. > > cheers > > Jules > I was in Kmart the other day (hate that store) and they had some 100W equivalent bulbs in the check out line so I looked at them and I could swear they calculated those savings using 10,000 hour bulb life. The few CFL bulbs I have puchased lasted a couple times the life of a good regular bulb (crappy bulbs last a few months), nowhere near the time period they are supposed to last. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 8 14:08:52 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 15:08:52 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3DEE.1010108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 12:55 PM Subject: Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly > On 4/8/11 12:44 PM, Richard wrote: >>> Would we even be talking about banning incandescents if they weren't >>> made by slave labor in China? >> >> Its completely stupid that incandescents are being banned anyway. If >> the user wants to pay more for the warm lighting they provide, that's >> their choice. Noone and nothing is harmed except the purchaser's wallet. > > I agree 100%. The warmth or color caste issues are moot, with dozens of > colors of CFLs available, but the point is, the public should make the > choice, not the government. This "nanny government" crap is really > getting out of control. > > -Dave > > -- The public is stupid, they will buy the cheapest crap they can even if it has a sticker saying it will kill you in 5 years. Few people really have a clue what they are really paying for electricity, gasoline and heat because they don't figure in all the money the government spends to subsidize those prices. I think the governments push to use less electricity is because we are reaching the point where we cannot keep the juice flowing at present usage rates. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 14:17:05 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 15:17:05 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3DEE.1010108@neurotica.com> <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> Message-ID: *facepalm* ...and I do not know if it is because of this stupid SC legislation, or the responses to it on this list. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 8 14:20:42 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 15:20:42 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F4C60.4020301@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F391A.6070603@gmail.com> <4D9F4C60.4020301@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D9F600A.5050705@atarimuseum.com> I've been using CFL's for about 15 years or so... I did it for saving money, not about the environment. What I get nervous about at high hat placement of CFL's and I notice the bases tend to crack when they do out and I notice a lot of melting and burning on the bases, worries me about potential fire issues, they are UL'd, but that doesn't mean something could go wrong. The other thing I've noticed is their claimed life is highly over estimated, I've never seen one last more then typically 2-3 years, though I do have 3 that have been in place outside and they've been there 7+ years and not burnt out. They do tend to dim quite a bit after the 2nd year though. Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 08/04/2011 17:34, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Me too. Particularly when a lot of it is done under the guise of >> "saving the planet", and it's not at all clear that CFLs do that when >> the bigger picture beyond point-of-use is taken into account. > > True, there's a lot of nasty stuff used in making CFLs, more than in > incandescents. > >>> a manufacturer who will *guarantee* (not pro-rated either) 5000 >>> hours of trouble-free illumination from a CFL and I'll bite. >> >> ... and that they're not lying about the "equivalent wattage" ratings, > > Dave's mention of 100W of light for 12W of power is way off. I'm not > sure he believed that, but it's not far from what some manufacturers > have claimed. The truth is that a typical /new/ CFL will give an > improvement of at best about 5:1 (equivalent of a 100W incandescent > from a 20W CFL) and the light output drops a lot over time. That's > why over here manufacturers are now supposed to quote the light output > rather than the equivalent wattage, and if they make comparisons are > supposed to also state the light output of whatever incandescent > they're comparing it to. I doubt many consumers have much clue about > light output numbers, though. > > Wikipedia says over the life of a CFL the output drops to typically > 70%-80%. My own measurements say it's much worse than that, and I've > had to replace CFLs that emitted less than 50% of their original output. > >> and that the illumination that it gives is of a reasonable quality >> rather than having a sickly color-cast to it. > > It's possible to get "daylight" CFLs that are better if a little more > expensive, and it's possible for a premium price to get ones that have > an almost continuous spectrum, as needed by photographers. But most > "daylight" ones, even ones sold at twice the price of "ordinary" CFLs, > have a pretty awful colour balance and a lot of gaps in the spectrum. > You can see the effect on some artificial dyes on artificial fabrics, > which can actually look a completely different colour (not just a > different shade) between daylight and CFL light. Nightmare for > graduation pictures (I had to re-shoot a whole set once because the > hoods on some gowns came out gold instead of green). > > Worst of all (for a photographer) is that different brands can have > different phosphor mixes and need radically different correction filters. > > Over here CFLs are required to be marked (at least on the packaging) > with a colour rendering index number that denotes how "good" they are > on a scale of 1-100. Most score 60 or so. Some "daylight" ones score > between 70 and 80. Really good ones score up to 90. Incandescents > easily score 100. > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 8 14:23:28 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 15:23:28 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3DEE.1010108@neurotica.com> <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D9F60B0.8040002@atarimuseum.com> Next thing you you, they'll ban US companies from drilling in US waters, but pay for and encourage other countries to drill in our waters, and then sell our oil back to us at a higher cost and we don't get the benefit of having our own people get jobs and such... nah, that would never happen... oh wait, it already has, can't wait to fill up on $5/gallon gasoline from Brazilian extracted US oil.... Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 12:55 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly > > >> On 4/8/11 12:44 PM, Richard wrote: >>>> Would we even be talking about banning incandescents if they weren't >>>> made by slave labor in China? >>> >>> Its completely stupid that incandescents are being banned anyway. If >>> the user wants to pay more for the warm lighting they provide, that's >>> their choice. Noone and nothing is harmed except the purchaser's >>> wallet. >> >> I agree 100%. The warmth or color caste issues are moot, with >> dozens of colors of CFLs available, but the point is, the public >> should make the choice, not the government. This "nanny government" >> crap is really getting out of control. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- > The public is stupid, they will buy the cheapest crap they can even if > it has a sticker saying it will kill you in 5 years. > > Few people really have a clue what they are really paying for > electricity, gasoline and heat because they don't figure in all the > money the government spends to subsidize those prices. I think the > governments push to use less electricity is because we are reaching > the point where we cannot keep the juice flowing at present usage rates. > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 8 14:39:37 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 12:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: from Ian King at "Apr 8, 11 10:27:33 am" Message-ID: <201104081939.p38JdbDG013904@floodgap.com> > > Not here. With ~3.5-4kW worth of computers running 24x7, we run A/C > > year-round. With how hot our part of Florida has become over the past > > 5-6 years, we'd probably still be running A/C year-round even without > > the computers. It's unbelievable. That's the big reason we're trying > > so hard to move back up north. > > Wow, sounds like we should pass a law against living in Florida! -- Ian How about So Cal? I have the same issue with my servers crammed into my apartment. I'm starting to consolidate them all onto my new-to-me 2-way POWER6, so that helps, and the POWER6 as loaded as it is still "only" uses around 300W. But there's a lot of heat to go around in sunny So Cal, current weather excepted. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Jackie Fisher, who are you? Dreadnought ------------------------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 8 14:44:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 15:44:16 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <201104081939.p38JdbDG013904@floodgap.com> References: <201104081939.p38JdbDG013904@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D9F6590.5010204@neurotica.com> On 4/8/11 3:39 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Not here. With ~3.5-4kW worth of computers running 24x7, we run A/C >>> year-round. With how hot our part of Florida has become over the past >>> 5-6 years, we'd probably still be running A/C year-round even without >>> the computers. It's unbelievable. That's the big reason we're trying >>> so hard to move back up north. >> >> Wow, sounds like we should pass a law against living in Florida! -- Ian > > How about So Cal? I have the same issue with my servers crammed into my > apartment. I'm starting to consolidate them all onto my new-to-me 2-way > POWER6, so that helps, and the POWER6 as loaded as it is still "only" uses > around 300W. But there's a lot of heat to go around in sunny So Cal, current > weather excepted. Time to move. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 8 14:49:43 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 12:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F6590.5010204@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 8, 11 03:44:16 pm" Message-ID: <201104081949.p38JnhPG013996@floodgap.com> > > How about So Cal? I have the same issue with my servers crammed into my > > apartment. I'm starting to consolidate them all onto my new-to-me 2-way > > POWER6, so that helps, and the POWER6 as loaded as it is still "only" uses > > around 300W. But there's a lot of heat to go around in sunny So Cal, current > > weather excepted. > > Time to move. That, or colo. But it's awful convenient having your hardware sitting in the next room when something goes wrong. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Happiness is having a scratch for every itch. -- Ogden Nash ---------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 8 15:42:40 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 13:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <952911.74503.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <952911.74503.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110408134117.A67572@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Hehe. And at the border the've got road blocks checking cars for illegal > light bulbs. "Posession with intent to illuminate" Could they smuggle them out immersed in moonshine? From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 8 15:47:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 13:47:58 -0700 Subject: Oleo runs (was Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly) In-Reply-To: <952911.74503.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <952911.74503.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D9F747E.2000206@bitsavers.org> On 4/8/11 5:19 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Hehe. And at the border the've got road blocks checking cars for illegal light bulbs. "Posession with intent to illuminate" > http://www.eons.com/groups/topic/108555-Butter-or-Oleo In Wisconsin, as a bow to dairy interests, oleo was not allowed to be bought or served in restaurants. Thus, like any good capitalistic society, Illinois businesses setup oleo depots on their side of the border for Wisconsinites to make illegal oleo runs. And the Wisconsin state police would set up check points to stop and fine oleo smugglers on the return trip. Over thirty years ago the state relented on the oleo prohibition and decided to tax oleo rather than ban it. The monies raised were to go to the promotion of dairy products. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 8 16:09:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 14:09:26 -0700 Subject: Oleo runs (was Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly) In-Reply-To: <4D9F747E.2000206@bitsavers.org> References: <952911.74503.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4D9F747E.2000206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D9F1716.26295.13FB873@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2011 at 13:47, Al Kossow wrote: > In Wisconsin, as a bow to dairy interests, oleo was not allowed to be > bought or served in restaurants. You *could* buy it at the grocery store, but it was packed, uncolored, with a capsule of yellow dye. The idea was that if you wanted to make it look like butter, you mixed the coloring in. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 8 16:34:40 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 22:34:40 +0100 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D9F7F70.4070603@philpem.me.uk> On 08/04/11 17:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > Besides...What ISN'T made by slave labor in China nowadays? * Most Agilent test gear (made in Malaysia instead) * Canon digital cameras (most of the pro-SLRs and lenses are made in Japan, compacts are usually made in... drumroll... Malaysia) * DiscFerrets. All made in my Evil Mad Scientist Lab (tm). Well, some of the PCBs were made in China -- 0I06 boards (lighter solder mask) were made by Eurocircuits in either Germany or Holland (I forget which); the later boards were made in China. But they were *assembled* in the UK! ("And that's the important part!") Oh. You were being facetious. Never mind then. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 8 16:38:14 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 22:38:14 +0100 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D9F8046.6090409@philpem.me.uk> On 08/04/11 17:44, Richard wrote: > Its completely stupid that incandescents are being banned anyway. If > the user wants to pay more for the warm lighting they provide, that's > their choice. Noone and nothing is harmed except the purchaser's wallet. Have you ever tried calibrating a light meter? "Required tools: one 60W incandescent light bulb, one 100W incandescent light bulb. CFL, quartz-halogen, xenon or fluorescent lamps are not suitable." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 8 16:41:57 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 22:41:57 +0100 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F60B0.8040002@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3DEE.1010108@neurotica.com> <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> <4D9F60B0.8040002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D9F8125.2000907@philpem.me.uk> On 08/04/11 20:23, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > oh wait, it already has, can't wait to fill up on > $5/gallon gasoline from Brazilian extracted US oil.... Oh, we'd love to only pay $5/gal. Current UK prices are around the ?1.20/litre mark. One gallon is about 4.55 litres, giving: 4.55 * 1.20 = ?5.46 / gallon Now we convert to US Dollars at the prevailing market rate ?5.46 * 1.63830 USD = $8.94512. For sake of argument, let's round that up to $8.95. I think I've made my point......... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Apr 8 18:38:04 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:38:04 -0700 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: References: <4D9E20FF020000E40001D370@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Message-ID: <4D9F9C5C.8030000@mindspring.com> On 4/8/2011 1:48 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> Does anyone know what the "005134" code means? >> I search through RT-11 docs and can't find anything on error >> codes or such and I'm hoping this will help with the debugging. > > That is not an error code but just the address where the CPU stopped. > By looking at the code you might be able to figure out what the > problem is. The RX11 (M7846) does not use DMA (NPR), so check > that the NPR wire on the backplane is present (pins CA1 - CB1) or > check that the RX11 module has connection by a trace on the > module between those 2 pins. You may (or may) not also have to set the switch inside the RX drive to RX01 (non-DMA mode) vs RX02 (DMA mode). The controller to/from drive protocol is slightly different between the two modes, and the drive needs to know what kind of controller it is connected to. There is also a mode switch for PDP8 (12b) vs PDP11 (8b) mode but that one is probably already set OK. Don From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 19:22:28 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 20:22:28 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F8125.2000907@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3DEE.1010108@neurotica.com> <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> <4D9F60B0.8040002@atarimuseum.com> <4D9F8125.2000907@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D9FA6C4.9070202@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: >> oh wait, it already has, can't wait to fill up on >> $5/gallon gasoline from Brazilian extracted US oil.... > > Oh, we'd love to only pay $5/gal. Current UK prices are around the > ?1.20/litre mark. One gallon is about 4.55 litres, giving: One *Imperial* gallon is 4.55 liters. One *US* gallon is 3.78 liters. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 8 19:29:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 20:29:25 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9FA6C4.9070202@gmail.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3DEE.1010108@neurotica.com> <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> <4D9F60B0.8040002@atarimuseum.com> <4D9F8125.2000907@philpem.me.uk> <4D9FA6C4.9070202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D9FA865.30806@neurotica.com> On 4/8/11 8:22 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> oh wait, it already has, can't wait to fill up on >>> $5/gallon gasoline from Brazilian extracted US oil.... >> >> Oh, we'd love to only pay $5/gal. Current UK prices are around the >> ?1.20/litre mark. One gallon is about 4.55 litres, giving: > > One *Imperial* gallon is 4.55 liters. One *US* gallon is 3.78 liters. He's back!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 8 19:34:16 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 20:34:16 -0400 Subject: Oleo runs (was Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly) In-Reply-To: <4D9F747E.2000206@bitsavers.org> References: <952911.74503.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D9F747E.2000206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D9FA988.2060602@atarimuseum.com> I like that, its a good way of balance, people get what they want - and the free market gets to decide instead of the govt. The govt gets its share of the free market wheels turning and in turn, those funds go to promote the Dairy products, nice circle of beneficial circumstance. Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/8/11 5:19 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> Hehe. And at the border the've got road blocks checking cars for >> illegal light bulbs. "Posession with intent to illuminate" >> > > http://www.eons.com/groups/topic/108555-Butter-or-Oleo > > In Wisconsin, as a bow to dairy interests, oleo was not allowed to be > bought or served in restaurants. > > Thus, like any good capitalistic society, Illinois businesses setup > oleo depots on their side of the border > for Wisconsinites to make illegal oleo runs. And the Wisconsin state > police would set up check points to > stop and fine oleo smugglers on the return trip. > > Over thirty years ago the state relented on the oleo prohibition and > decided to tax oleo rather than ban it. > The monies raised were to go to the promotion of dairy products. > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 8 19:38:19 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 20:38:19 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F7F70.4070603@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> <4D9F7F70.4070603@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D9FAA7B.30405@atarimuseum.com> I have my plastics for my joysticks done out of Indiana, my PCB's from a firm in Utah, I source my IC's and components from Mouser. The only things I can't get here in the US are my custom silicon contact parts, there is no money in them, so nobody seems to want to do them and I can't find anyone in the US that actually MAKES, not sells USB cables, all the companies source them in from China, so I buy those direct. All of the assembly is done here in NY and shipped. Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 08/04/11 17:03, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Besides...What ISN'T made by slave labor in China nowadays? > > * Most Agilent test gear (made in Malaysia instead) > > * Canon digital cameras (most of the pro-SLRs and lenses are made in > Japan, compacts are usually made in... drumroll... Malaysia) > > * DiscFerrets. All made in my Evil Mad Scientist Lab (tm). Well, some > of the PCBs were made in China -- 0I06 boards (lighter solder mask) > were made by Eurocircuits in either Germany or Holland (I forget > which); the later boards were made in China. But they were *assembled* > in the UK! ("And that's the important part!") > > Oh. You were being facetious. Never mind then. > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 8 19:41:21 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 20:41:21 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9F8125.2000907@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3DEE.1010108@neurotica.com> <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> <4D9F60B0.8040002@atarimuseum.com> <4D9F8125.2000907@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D9FAB31.6000106@atarimuseum.com> Stop buying Brent Crude and buy the less expensive oil... Well the UK and Europe are MAJORLY screwed in the next 5 years with oil anyway. Russia has built and now owns all major oil supply lines to Europe and to the UK, so they are going to be able to reclaim their eastern bloc countries and majorly put the squeeze on the whole of Europe in the coming years... the great bear is getting ready to awaken again and we may all see the ressurection of the Soviet Union once again. Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 08/04/11 20:23, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> oh wait, it already has, can't wait to fill up on >> $5/gallon gasoline from Brazilian extracted US oil.... > > Oh, we'd love to only pay $5/gal. Current UK prices are around the > ?1.20/litre mark. One gallon is about 4.55 litres, giving: > > 4.55 * 1.20 = ?5.46 / gallon > > Now we convert to US Dollars at the prevailing market rate > > ?5.46 * 1.63830 USD = $8.94512. > > For sake of argument, let's round that up to $8.95. > > I think I've made my point......... > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 8 22:02:51 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 04:02:51 +0100 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9FAA7B.30405@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> <4D9F7F70.4070603@philpem.me.uk> <4D9FAA7B.30405@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D9FCC5B.7000501@philpem.me.uk> On 09/04/11 01:38, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have my plastics for my joysticks done out of Indiana, my PCB's from a > firm in Utah, I source my IC's and components from Mouser. The only > things I can't get here in the US are my custom silicon contact parts, > there is no money in them, so nobody seems to want to do them and I > can't find anyone in the US that actually MAKES, not sells USB cables, > all the companies source them in from China, so I buy those direct. > > All of the assembly is done here in NY and shipped. Unfortunately it seems most of the UK manufacturing companies have gone bust, and the few who are left aren't really interested in small-scale work unless you're willing to pay well over the market rate... The Eurocircuits boards were fairly reasonably priced, and much better quality than the Gold Phoenix boards -- the soldermask is lighter, but WAY thicker and tougher. On some of the early prototypes (before I perfected the reflow profile) the soldermask started to split and crack around the FPGA. Curiously enough, I never had that problem with the Eurocircuits boards, even with the "omigosh it's burning!" reflow profile. Neither board type took well to being pre-baked, though -- it's a pretty easy way to oxidise the plating. Fixing that mess was great fun and involved a bottle of metal polish, two bottles of PCB cleaner and one of those brown rubber PCB cleaning blocks... Ick. Not gonna do that again. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 8 22:12:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 23:12:52 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9FCC5B.7000501@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> <4D9F7F70.4070603@philpem.me.uk> <4D9FAA7B.30405@atarimuseum.com> <4D9FCC5B.7000501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D9FCEB4.9020402@neurotica.com> On 4/8/11 11:02 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I have my plastics for my joysticks done out of Indiana, my PCB's from a >> firm in Utah, I source my IC's and components from Mouser. The only >> things I can't get here in the US are my custom silicon contact parts, >> there is no money in them, so nobody seems to want to do them and I >> can't find anyone in the US that actually MAKES, not sells USB cables, >> all the companies source them in from China, so I buy those direct. >> >> All of the assembly is done here in NY and shipped. > > Unfortunately it seems most of the UK manufacturing companies have gone > bust, and the few who are left aren't really interested in small-scale > work unless you're willing to pay well over the market rate... Same here. The once-mighty American manufacturing industry is all but dead. It's pretty sad. Now China owns our asses. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 9 00:26:35 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 01:26:35 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9FCC5B.7000501@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F31C1.3020805@neurotica.com> <4D9F7F70.4070603@philpem.me.uk> <4D9FAA7B.30405@atarimuseum.com> <4D9FCC5B.7000501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D9FEE0B.4070009@atarimuseum.com> I have a bunch of desktop reflow ovens for assembly, the CFL's do NOT like them at all, they all start to rapidly dim during the HEAT process of the ovens, not sure - must be a lot of noise or something, the ovens are on a different circuit so its not a voltage drain. Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 09/04/11 01:38, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> I have my plastics for my joysticks done out of Indiana, my PCB's from a >> firm in Utah, I source my IC's and components from Mouser. The only >> things I can't get here in the US are my custom silicon contact parts, >> there is no money in them, so nobody seems to want to do them and I >> can't find anyone in the US that actually MAKES, not sells USB cables, >> all the companies source them in from China, so I buy those direct. >> >> All of the assembly is done here in NY and shipped. > > Unfortunately it seems most of the UK manufacturing companies have > gone bust, and the few who are left aren't really interested in > small-scale work unless you're willing to pay well over the market > rate... > > The Eurocircuits boards were fairly reasonably priced, and much better > quality than the Gold Phoenix boards -- the soldermask is lighter, but > WAY thicker and tougher. On some of the early prototypes (before I > perfected the reflow profile) the soldermask started to split and > crack around the FPGA. > > Curiously enough, I never had that problem with the Eurocircuits > boards, even with the "omigosh it's burning!" reflow profile. Neither > board type took well to being pre-baked, though -- it's a pretty easy > way to oxidise the plating. Fixing that mess was great fun and > involved a bottle of metal polish, two bottles of PCB cleaner and one > of those brown rubber PCB cleaning blocks... > > Ick. Not gonna do that again. > From pinball at telus.net Fri Apr 8 15:47:57 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 13:47:57 -0700 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D9F747D.9000701@telus.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Hi, > > I have two Lisa 2s in my possession that both exhibit serious > corrision from battery leakage. One is simply bad, the other is about > the worst such situation I've ever laid eyes on. > > I was able to remove the battery packs to halt the degradation, but > before I make a bad situation worse I thought I'd ask for some advice > on how to proceed. > > I'm also trying to work out what the units might be worth. The deal > with the seller is that I'm free to evaluate their condition and > attempt to get one working unit out of the two. Assuming a nominally > functional Lisa 2 with functional 10MB ProFile and fair cosmetic > condition, what do folks think is a fair price for that unit (the > owner wants whatever is left back, functioning or not)? > > Prices on eBay are really all over the map, so that's not of much help. > > Steve > > Depending on the type of rechargable battery used in your Lisa you should consider doing something to avoid corrosion on the circuit boards. I wrote a page on dealing with batteries for Pinballs and Jukeboxes, but the info applies to anything that is battery powered. http://flippers.com/battery.html If the battery was Ni-Cad, then the stuff that leaked out was an alkalye (base) and should be neutralized with a mild acid (white vinegar & h20 50/50) then rinsed and dried thoroughly. You really want to deal with this sooner, rather than later... John :-#(# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 8 18:01:34 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 00:01:34 +0100 Subject: DEC docs and machines available, Suffolk, UK In-Reply-To: <20110407122750.A872D176086@adrian-grahams-mac-mini.local> Message-ID: Folks, Please see this email from Chris Bailey and reply directly to him if interested. There's some really nice stuff in this collection of largely docs and maintenance spares, but also some VAXstations, cables (mostly serial BC03M/BC22D and thinwire), diagnostic floppies, VAX TU58s, a microfiche reader with quite a few fiches, and entire box of spare LS74 type chips, a bag of what looks like drive belts, rack kits for BA35x shelves, 2 BA23 backplanes, 3 boxes of 115v fans etc. I can go back and hold things for a while for interested parties but I have limited space myself these days :/ Some pix: (all between 300-600kb jpg) http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul01.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul02.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul03.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul04.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul05.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul06.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul07.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul08.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul09.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul10.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul11.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul12.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul13.jpg There's a cutoff date of 21st April since Chris doesn't live where the kit currently is, also there's more VAX docs and probably other spares up in the loft of the house that haven't been discovered yet. Note I've already picked up the Pro350s (well, 2 Pro350s and one VAX Console) because I don't have one and I know someone else who is looking for one. Cheers, and please help save this collection! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? Message from chris bailey (chr15bailey at yahoo.co.uk) on April 7th, 2011 at 01:27PM (BST). Hi, Im emailing you to see if you are interested in a load of vintage Digital Equipment Corporation computers etc. My dad has now passed away, but he was a DEC engineer for 20+years. He amassesd a whole load of DEC computers bits when he retired. We are now clearing out the garage but are not sure what to do with all this computer stuff, and just thought we'd see if anyone wants any of it before throwing it out. Here is a brief list of whats in the garage. TZ85 BA350 MA (X3) VAXSTATION 3100 (X2) VS42A-SN (X2) DEC PRO 350 (X3) LN08-A3-SN (LAZER PRINTER) RZ55-F3 (X2) TK50Z-63 HZ821-00 (dismantled state) V3201 (small monitor) VR297D3 (Big monitor) SC01-E (microfiche reader + inc microfiches) MICROVAX II (large) There are numerous boxes of manuals,disks, cables,circuit boards etc. A quick reply would be appreciated if you would like to have any of this, otherwise it will go to the tip. We live not far from Ipswich (Martlesham Heath) in Suffolk. Regards. Chris Bailey. ------ End of Forwarded Message From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 9 08:10:12 2011 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 09:10:12 -0400 Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com Message-ID: <20110409131013.045771E02A8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Last weekend I promised to enable rsync access to the archives (and mirrors) here. I've set up the following rsync (no password required) archive sets here: ftp : Public rsync access to ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/ area pdp-10-tape-images : public rsync access to the PDP-10 tape images, i.e. http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ bitsavers-mirror : public rsync access to my local bitsavers mirror, i.e. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ Suggested rsync commands would be, for example: mkdir ./pdp-10-tape-images rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::pdp-10-tape-images ./pdp-10-tape-images mkdir ./ftp.trailing-edge.com rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::ftp ./ftp.trailing-edge.com mkdir ./bitsavers-mirror rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::bitsavers-mirror ./bitsavers-mirror Realistically the pdp-10-tape-images and ftp sites don't change often, butm my bitsavers mirror is kept up to date. I like to think my outgoing bandwidth (20 Mbit) is pretty much infinite, this looks like a good way to find out :-) ftp racks up to 3.5 Gbytes. PDP-10 tapes racks up to 2.2 Gbytes. And bitsavers-mirror racks up to 126 Gbytes. Tim. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 9 09:03:22 2011 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:03:22 -0400 Subject: US manufacturing (was OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly) Message-ID: <20110409140322.D34571E02A4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >>> I can't find anyone in the US that actually MAKES, not sells USB cables, >>> all the companies source them in from China, so I buy those direct. > >> Unfortunately it seems most of the UK manufacturing companies have gone >> bust, and the few who are left aren't really interested in small-scale >> work unless you're willing to pay well over the market rate... > Same here. The once-mighty American manufacturing industry is all >but dead. It's pretty sad. Now China owns our asses. As to USB connectors.... I'm 99% sure that Keystone and Switchcraft are still made in the USA. A wide variety of more industrial (not so much consumer) plugs and jacks are still made in the USA by other respected names, too. Tim. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Apr 9 09:53:17 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:53:17 -0400 Subject: *NEW* C64! Message-ID: <201104091053.17812.rtellason@verizon.net> heh... http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-nyt -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 9 10:43:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 08:43:32 -0700 Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <201104091053.17812.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <201104091053.17812.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DA01C34.14866.36E9DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2011 at 10:53, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > heh... > > http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-n > yt I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... To my eye, the proportions of the thing don't look quite right. It looks quite a bit "thicker" (i.e. vertical dimension) than the original C64. So what's next? A S/360-40 lookalike with a P4 motherboard tucked inside? --Chuck From dgahling at hotmail.com Sat Apr 9 11:13:54 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:13:54 -0400 Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <4DA01C34.14866.36E9DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201104091053.17812.rtellason@verizon.net>, <4DA01C34.14866.36E9DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: first of all, its vaporware - doesn't exist yet (taking orders does not mean product). secondly, just because it looks like a c64, doesn't make it a c64 its a PC running emulation software and cannot read or write real c64 disks either 1581 or 1541and you couldn't connect such a drive and make it work. why not just buy a mini pc for $100-$300 and run the emulation software yourself? oh, yeah it wouldn't look like a c64? ok, paint it. anyone who buys one of these is a moron ;) > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 08:43:32 -0700 > Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! > > On 9 Apr 2011 at 10:53, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > > > heh... > > > > http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-n > > yt > > I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to > shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... > > To my eye, the proportions of the thing don't look quite right. It > looks quite a bit "thicker" (i.e. vertical dimension) than the > original C64. > > So what's next? A S/360-40 lookalike with a P4 motherboard tucked > inside? > > --Chuck > From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 11:05:53 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:05:53 -0500 Subject: Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! Message-ID: <4da08602.015de70a.014e.7372@mx.google.com> Way off topic, sorry, just couldn't resist. News from our fellow IT industry workers in Russia: The chinese have invented a disk drive that allows you to write an infinite amount of data to it! Discovered by a Russian engineer. Be sure to click the 2nd picture for a close-up look at this amazing new technology. http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html 298 . [Literature] The secret to success as a short story writer is to find the guy who built Kuttner's (and later Silverberg's) water-cooled typewriter :) --Ahasuerus NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 9 11:39:31 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:39:31 -0400 Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <4DA01C34.14866.36E9DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201104091053.17812.rtellason@verizon.net> <4DA01C34.14866.36E9DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DA08BC3.5040905@atarimuseum.com> It may have to be a little different in the dimensions to accomodate the Mini ITX motherboard that is inside of it. Its a great idea, but the pricing seems very high. Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Apr 2011 at 10:53, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > > >> heh... >> >> http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-n >> yt >> > > I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to > shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... > > To my eye, the proportions of the thing don't look quite right. It > looks quite a bit "thicker" (i.e. vertical dimension) than the > original C64. > > So what's next? A S/360-40 lookalike with a P4 motherboard tucked > inside? > > --Chuck > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 9 11:48:12 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <4DA01C34.14866.36E9DC@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 9, 11 08:43:32 am" Message-ID: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988@floodgap.com> > I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to > shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... I'd rather have the Chameleon. Neat, and isn't vapourware. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. -- Oscar Wilde ---- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 12:12:38 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 13:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9F747D.9000701@telus.net> References: <4D9F747D.9000701@telus.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Apr 2011, John Robertson wrote: >> I have two Lisa 2s in my possession that both exhibit serious corrision >> from battery leakage. One is simply bad, the other is about the worst such >> situation I've ever laid eyes on. >> >> I was able to remove the battery packs to halt the degradation, but before >> I make a bad situation worse I thought I'd ask for some advice on how to >> proceed. >> >> I'm also trying to work out what the units might be worth. The deal with >> the seller is that I'm free to evaluate their condition and attempt to get >> one working unit out of the two. Assuming a nominally functional Lisa 2 >> with functional 10MB ProFile and fair cosmetic condition, what do folks >> think is a fair price for that unit (the owner wants whatever is left back, >> functioning or not)? >> >> Prices on eBay are really all over the map, so that's not of much help. >> >> Steve >> >> > Depending on the type of rechargable battery used in your Lisa you should > consider doing something to avoid corrosion on the circuit boards. I wrote a > page on dealing with batteries for Pinballs and Jukeboxes, but the info > applies to anything that is battery powered. > http://flippers.com/battery.html > > If the battery was Ni-Cad, then the stuff that leaked out was an alkalye > (base) and should be neutralized with a mild acid (white vinegar & h20 50/50) > then rinsed and dried thoroughly. > > You really want to deal with this sooner, rather than later... Most assuredly. Today has been set aside as "soak the boards" day. Neutralization is one thing, but in my experience it does not in itself remove the green crud. Any advice for getting that off? I've seen advice to simply scrub with hot water and detergent, which is probably as good as anything for areas of the board covered with solder masking. However, I'm still in a quandry as to removing it from conductive surfaces. Steve -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 9 12:18:14 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 10:18:14 -0700 Subject: Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! In-Reply-To: <4da08602.015de70a.014e.7372@mx.google.com> References: <4da08602.015de70a.014e.7372@mx.google.com> Message-ID: At 11:05 AM -0500 4/9/11, Tom wrote: >Way off topic, sorry, just couldn't resist. > >News from our fellow IT industry workers in Russia: The chinese have >invented a disk drive that allows you to write an infinite amount of >data to it! Discovered by a Russian engineer. Be sure to click the >2nd picture for a close-up look at this amazing new technology. > >http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html My only question is where can I get one, and how much! Yes, I read the article. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 9 12:18:37 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 10:18:37 -0700 Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988@floodgap.com> References: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 9:48 AM -0700 4/9/11, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to >> shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... > >I'd rather have the Chameleon. Neat, and isn't vapourware. The Chameleon provides something I need. The C64x (I think that's the right name) doesn't. I hope to eventually have a Chameleon, but I'd just as soon let it mature some. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From vintagecoder at aol.com Sat Apr 9 12:43:44 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 17:43:44 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 17 [Borland manuals going up on Bitsavers!] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201104091743.p39Hhns9020854@omr-m33.mx.aol.com> > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: difference between Quick compilers > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4D9E04EA.9030606 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 4/6/11 6:14 PM, Chris M wrote: > > > Any Borland/Turbo fans still out there? > > > > I've been working on getting all the Borland manuals from the 80's up on > bitsavers. THANK YOU! From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 9 12:53:25 2011 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 13:53:25 -0400 Subject: Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! Message-ID: <20110409175326.088B41E029E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Way off topic, sorry, just couldn't resist. In fact not off-topic at all, because this technology existed nearly 40 years ago. > News from our fellow IT industry workers in > Russia: The chinese have invented a disk drive > that allows you to write an infinite amount of > data to it! Discovered by a Russian engineer. Be > sure to click the 2nd picture for a close-up look > at this amazing new technology. > http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html The Chinese are way way late to this invention. Signetics had this area perfectly well covered in 1974 with the 25120 Fully Encoded, 9046xN, Random Access Write-Only-Memory. It was such an achievement that you can even read about it in Bob Pease's part of the NatSemi website: http://www.national.com/rap/Story/WOMorigin.html Tim. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 9 13:07:41 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 11:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <4D9FAB31.6000106@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4D9F03DF.2070808@neurotica.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9F3DEE.1010108@neurotica.com> <4CB3F453644B4A8EB536EFDE505E9B29@dell8300> <4D9F60B0.8040002@atarimuseum.com> <4D9F8125.2000907@philpem.me.uk> <4D9FAB31.6000106@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Apr 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Stop buying Brent Crude and buy the less expensive oil... > > Well the UK and Europe are MAJORLY screwed in the next 5 years with oil > anyway. Russia has built and now owns all major oil supply lines to Europe > and to the UK, so they are going to be able to reclaim their eastern bloc > countries and majorly put the squeeze on the whole of Europe in the coming > years... the great bear is getting ready to awaken again and we may all see > the ressurection of the Soviet Union once again. > Nah, the world is going to end next year, so they'll never get the chance. *rolls eyes* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Apr 9 14:02:29 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:02:29 -0700 Subject: Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! In-Reply-To: <20110409175326.088B41E029E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20110409175326.088B41E029E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Isn't that the device at /dev/null? ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa [shoppa at trailing-edge.com] Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 10:53 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! > Way off topic, sorry, just couldn't resist. In fact not off-topic at all, because this technology existed nearly 40 years ago. > News from our fellow IT industry workers in > Russia: The chinese have invented a disk drive > that allows you to write an infinite amount of > data to it! Discovered by a Russian engineer. Be > sure to click the 2nd picture for a close-up look > at this amazing new technology. > http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html The Chinese are way way late to this invention. Signetics had this area perfectly well covered in 1974 with the 25120 Fully Encoded, 9046xN, Random Access Write-Only-Memory. It was such an achievement that you can even read about it in Bob Pease's part of the NatSemi website: http://www.national.com/rap/Story/WOMorigin.html Tim. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 15:10:50 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 21:10:50 +0100 Subject: Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! In-Reply-To: References: <20110409175326.088B41E029E@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Even implemented in relational databases the fastest storage engine yet http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.0/en/blackhole-storage-engine.html Dave Caroline On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 8:02 PM, Ian King wrote: > Isn't that the device at /dev/null? > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa [shoppa at trailing-edge.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 10:53 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! > >> Way off topic, sorry, just couldn't resist. > > In fact not off-topic at all, because this technology > existed nearly 40 years ago. > >> News from our fellow IT industry workers in >> Russia: The chinese have invented a disk drive >> that allows you to write an infinite amount of >> data to it! Discovered by a Russian engineer. Be >> sure to click the 2nd picture for a close-up look >> at this amazing new technology. >> http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html > > The Chinese are way way late to this invention. > > Signetics had this area perfectly well covered in 1974 > with the 25120 Fully Encoded, 9046xN, Random Access > Write-Only-Memory. > > It was such an achievement that you can even read about > it in Bob Pease's part of the NatSemi website: > > ?http://www.national.com/rap/Story/WOMorigin.html > > Tim. > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 15:43:31 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 16:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Status of Lisa bringup Message-ID: First a question for other Lisa owners: Could an error 10707 result from attempting to startup Lisa Office from a ProFile that was configured while attached to a different machine? I believe there's some sort of node-locking that occurs during installation, but I'm not sure what the symptoms of a mismatch might be. Otherwise, here's the status of my restoration: - Intermittant recognition of keyboard originally blamed on bad 1/4" jack was finally traced down to missing screws on the bottom of the case. With these missing, the front bezel springs out far enough to prevent the keyboard plug from making reliable contact. Never noticed they were gone until I turned it upside down. - Dead keys addressed by cannabilizing a Sun 4 keyboard ($18 eBay purchase). All foam disks replaced, all keys now working. Cleaned up nicely to boot! - Spent some quality time cleaning out the 9-pin mouse connector with Caig cleaner and bent spring contacts in very slightly with jeweler's screwdriver. Now making reliable connection, saving a big hassle trying to get it off the board without damaging anything. - Snarfed diskette drive from the second Lisa, cleaned up mechanism, degreased with PCB flux remover (alcohol, I believe) and performed final lub with a tiny amount of spray silicone. It now passes LisaTest 100% and can boot into MacWorks / Finder 5.0 from one of the ProFiles. The other ProFile has Lisa Office installed, but as noted above it throws an error 10707 after chugging away for a bit. When I use LisaTest to examine the ProFile the ready LED extinguishes, followed by zero apparent activity before the test fails. Steve -- From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Apr 9 16:15:53 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 09:15:53 +1200 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup References: Message-ID: Steve, Lisa Office, once installed on a Profile or Widget, does indeed map to the machine it was installed on as an anti-piracy measure. However it doesn't seem to stop it booting. Lisa Office should still load. I've seen this symptom when I plugged up a friend's ProFile emulator to my Lisa 2. Office loaded just fine. However, when I went to create new documents it wouldn't let me, saying that there was a mismatch between the machine and the installation. Sounds like great progress otherwise! Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:43 AM Subject: Status of Lisa bringup > First a question for other Lisa owners: > > Could an error 10707 result from attempting to startup Lisa Office from a > ProFile that was configured while attached to a different machine? I > believe there's some sort of node-locking that occurs during installation, > but I'm not sure what the symptoms of a mismatch might be. > From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 16:35:50 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 16:35:50 -0500 Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: References: <201104091053.17812.rtellason@verizon.net> <4DA01C34.14866.36E9DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > its a PC running emulation software and cannot read or write real c64 disks either 1581 or 1541and you couldn't connect such a drive and make it work. > why not just buy a mini pc for $100-$300 and run the emulation software yourself? I was thinking the same thing. I was hoping that they had put a catweasel in there or at least a PCI slot for one. Then you could put two SID chips on it, get two 9-pin joystick ports, and be able to write floppies. I'd much rather have a floppy drive in place of the dvd drive. brian From scott.m.18 at atsgate.com Sat Apr 9 17:16:00 2011 From: scott.m.18 at atsgate.com (Scott Mickey) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 16:16:00 -0600 Subject: VAX 7810, VAX 3620 and VAX 3610 available in Detroit Message-ID: <4DA0DAA0.CC91D639@atsgate.com> Hey, Has anyone noticed these big VAXen available in Detroit? http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/sys/2257545671.html They look to be on raised floor (where I am guessing they have been for the last 20+ years). I would also guess this is one of those cases where they would accept $100 from anyone who could quietly and efficiently remove the machines with minor distruption to the other activities in the datacenter. I am over 800 miles away, so not a possibility for me. -Scott From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 9 18:09:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 19:09:47 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <201104081949.p38JnhPG013996@floodgap.com> References: <201104081949.p38JnhPG013996@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DA0E73B.8090903@neurotica.com> On 4/8/11 3:49 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> How about So Cal? I have the same issue with my servers crammed into my >>> apartment. I'm starting to consolidate them all onto my new-to-me 2-way >>> POWER6, so that helps, and the POWER6 as loaded as it is still "only" uses >>> around 300W. But there's a lot of heat to go around in sunny So Cal, current >>> weather excepted. >> >> Time to move. > > That, or colo. But it's awful convenient having your hardware sitting in the > next room when something goes wrong. This is true. I ran tech operations for a large colo firm for years, I'm definitely not opposed to them, but my machines will be running in *my* building, and that's that. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 9 18:36:29 2011 From: cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org (cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 20:36:29 -0300 Subject: Head Hunters refer people to us for help Message-ID: <9424665197.80T198U7187269@lybreobdtjtzyij.lzsbqyc.va> Get a Degree in 4 to 6 Weeks with our program! ~We offer a program that will help ANYONE with professional experience get a 100% verified Degree: Doctorate (PHD), Bachelors, Masters - Think about it... Within a few weeks, you can become a college graduate!- Follow YOUR Dreams- Live a better life by earning or upgrading your degree This is a rare chance for you to make a right move and receive your due benefits... if you are qualified but are lacking that piece of paper, Get one from us in a fraction of the time. ~CALL FOR A FREE CONSULTATION~ 1-248-213-1439 It is your move... Make the right decision. Due to time zone variations across the country, a representative may not be in the office at the time of your call. If that is the case please leave us a message with your name and phone number and we will get back to you as soon as possible. Do Not Reply to this Email. We do not reply to text inquiries, and our server will reject all response traffic. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 9 19:27:39 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 17:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988@floodgap.com> References: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20110409172000.G14748@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 9 Apr 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I'd rather have the Chameleon. Neat, and isn't vapourware. When the Chameleon 325 (perhaps the only machine to ever use 3.25" drives (that Dysan bet the companyt on)) was announced, it WAS vaporware for a while, as exposed by Infoworld?. (Being made in Bawlmer (Baltimore), it was "vaporware", not "vapourware") But, you are probably not talking about the original classic "Chameleon". Real C64 drives have been connected to PCs in several ways, ranging from IEEE-488 to parallel port hacks. Why COULDN'T this new attempt have an adapter made tfor 1541 drives? Why isn't there a USB adapter for old C64 drives? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 07:17:59 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 13:17:59 +0100 Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <20110409172000.G14748@shell.lmi.net> References: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988@floodgap.com> <20110409172000.G14748@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10 April 2011 01:27, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 9 Apr 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'd rather have the Chameleon. Neat, and isn't vapourware. > > When the Chameleon 325 (perhaps the only machine to ever use 3.25" drives > (that Dysan bet the companyt on)) was announced, it WAS vaporware for a > while, as exposed by Infoworld?. ?(Being made in Bawlmer (Baltimore), it > was "vaporware", not "vapourware") > > But, you are probably not talking about the original classic "Chameleon". > > Real C64 drives have been connected to PCs in several ways, ranging from > IEEE-488 to parallel port hacks. ?Why COULDN'T this new attempt have an > adapter made tfor 1541 drives? ?Why isn't there a USB adapter for old C64 > drives? What he said! It's not really a C64, no. But the handful of people still interested in an actual C64 of some form probably have one. In fact they probably have several each. It's a generic x86 PC, the bog-standard commodity computer of the 21st century. (Not even a particularly good one. Atom chips are rubbish. I'd rather have an AMD Fusion chip or something, myself.) In other words, it's what people expect and want when they buy a computer today. An /actual/ C64, no matter how much enhanced, would be a paperweight for most people. But it will run C64 software. That's a triumph in the circumstances. Don't knock it. It's just a 64-shaped PC for nostalgics. It has more chance of selling than an actual C64-compatible ever would. As for their Amiga range - just case designs at the moment - well, that's different. AmigaOS is still alive (just) and has a tiny tiny shred of a chance. I'd do 2 or 3 machines if it was me. A cheap Minimig in a desktop case, for nostalgic gamers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimig A Hackintosh-compatible PC (i.e. a cheapo clone specified to be compatible with Mac OS X via an EFI dongle.) Run AROS on it, out of the box, vaguely justifying claims of Amiga name. http://aros.sourceforge.net/ Icaros is a somewhat usable distribution of AROS: http://www.icarosdesktop.org/ And possibly a cheap PowerPC box with AmigaOS 4.1 http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/ ... for real Amiga enthusiasts - but since they've done a deal with Bill McEwen: http://www.amiga.com/news/2010-08-31-commodore-amiga-aio.php ... then I doubt that will happen. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From tim.newsham+cctalk at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 12:46:51 2011 From: tim.newsham+cctalk at gmail.com (Tim Newsham) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 07:46:51 -1000 Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: References: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988@floodgap.com> <20110409172000.G14748@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >> Real C64 drives have been connected to PCs in several ways, ranging from >> IEEE-488 to parallel port hacks. ?Why COULDN'T this new attempt have an >> adapter made tfor 1541 drives? ?Why isn't there a USB adapter for old C64 >> drives? like http://www.root.org/~nate/c64/xum1541/ ? From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Apr 10 14:11:12 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:11:12 -0400 Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: References: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988@floodgap.com>, <20110409172000.G14748@shell.lmi.net>, , Message-ID: zoomfloppy for the win! http://store.go4retro.com/products/ZoomFloppy.html > Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 07:46:51 -1000 > Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! > From: tim.newsham+cctalk at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > CC: cctech at classiccmp.org > > >> Real C64 drives have been connected to PCs in several ways, ranging from > >> IEEE-488 to parallel port hacks. Why COULDN'T this new attempt have an > >> adapter made tfor 1541 drives? Why isn't there a USB adapter for old C64 > >> drives? > > like http://www.root.org/~nate/c64/xum1541/ ? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Apr 10 14:16:21 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 20:16:21 +0100 Subject: VAX 7810, VAX 3620 and VAX 3610 available in Detroit In-Reply-To: <4DA0DAA0.CC91D639@atsgate.com> Message-ID: Gaaah, I now have space for a 78xx but am on the wrong continent! A On 09/04/2011 23:16, "Scott Mickey" wrote: > Hey, > > Has anyone noticed these big VAXen available in Detroit? > http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/sys/2257545671.html > > They look to be on raised floor (where I am guessing they > have been for the last 20+ years). I would also guess this > is one of those cases where they would accept $100 from anyone > who could quietly and efficiently remove the machines with > minor distruption to the other activities in the datacenter. > I am over 800 miles away, so not a possibility for me. > > -Scott -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From drb at msu.edu Sun Apr 10 14:38:49 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:38:49 -0400 Subject: VAX 7810, VAX 3620 and VAX 3610 available in Detroit In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 09 Apr 2011 16:16:00 MDT.) <4DA0DAA0.CC91D639@atsgate.com> References: <4DA0DAA0.CC91D639@atsgate.com> Message-ID: <20110410193849.A990FA5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Has anyone noticed these big VAXen available in Detroit? > http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/sys/2257545671.html Note that those are probably 6310 and 6320, not 36x0. Power spec for a 7800 series machine is up to 50A, 240V. Anybody have actual experience with a 7810? De From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 10 14:44:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 15:44:30 -0400 Subject: VAX 7810, VAX 3620 and VAX 3610 available in Detroit In-Reply-To: <20110410193849.A990FA5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4DA0DAA0.CC91D639@atsgate.com> <20110410193849.A990FA5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4DA2089E.40205@neurotica.com> On 4/10/11 3:38 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Has anyone noticed these big VAXen available in Detroit? > > http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/sys/2257545671.html > > Note that those are probably 6310 and 6320, not 36x0. I just looked at the pic. Yes, those are the fairly rare rackmount 6000-series machines. I have one of those chassis but it's pretty beat up; I'd dearly love to have those. Alas, currently I've no way to retrieve them. > Power spec for a 7800 series machine is up to 50A, 240V. Anybody have > actual experience with a 7810? Not a 7800, but my 7700 (7730 config w/512MB) pulls about 8A @ 120V, including some DSSI drives. Not bad at all. The spec is, as usual, completely whacked. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Sun Apr 10 14:46:32 2011 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 12:46:32 -0700 Subject: Jerry Lawson passed away (developed Fairchild Channel F video game console) In-Reply-To: <4C77E5D6.5010504@snarc.net> References: <4C77E5D6.5010504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <016801cbf7b7$ff2a28e0$fd7e7aa0$@com> Jerry Lawson passed away Saturday morning (4/9/2011) I will post more information regarding memorial services, etc. as I get them. Here is a link to a recent article in the San Jose Mercury News about Jerry. http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_17531389?nclick_check=1 Here is another interview with Jerry. http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/545 He will be sorely missed. Regards, david. ------------------------- David W. Erhart david at daviderhart.com daviderhart at hotmail.com From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Apr 10 15:16:59 2011 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 16:16:59 -0400 Subject: free 3600 lisp machine, two 14" disks, spare boards Message-ID: <8490667B-484A-4D15-B3F7-25485341C02F@heeltoe.com> I'm slightly downsizing my office space and need to get rid of my 3600. It's free for the taking. I am in Arlington Massachusetts (USA). This is a Symbolics 3600 lisp machine. The original 3600 design. Huge circuit boards. 36 bit memory. A gigantic fan. Cool red LED nano-fep. One of the coolest microcoded machines I've ever seen. And it runs off 110VAC. It's very heavy. The CPU cabinet is about the size of a large refrigerator. The two 14" disks are mounted in a DEC 1/2 height rack with no sides. The SMD disks have 14" platters and clear plastic tops. It used to work fine but I have turned it on in a few years. I have a full set of spare boards. I think I even have a color board and paddle. I think it has Genera 7.2 on it, but I'm not sure. It booted fine last time I turned it on. To me it is a thing of beauty, but I'm just not table to store it anymore and I have a 3640 and XL1200 which are much easier to care for (and much easier to move :-) Anyone want a piece of history? If so show up with a truck and at least 2 hefty guys and it's yours. Both cabinets are on wheels. Batteries not included. -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 21:16:06 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 22:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Office System install blues.. Message-ID: I'm having no luck at all installing LOS. I've tried Lisa Office 3.0 and 2.0, but they both claim they cannot write to the disk - I tried two 5M and one 10M ProFile. To my knowledge, none of these have bad sectors. There's no sign that it's even _trying_ to access the disk. The activity light on the ProFile flickers during _detection_ and I can hear it seek. But, when I push the button to initialize it comes back immediately claiming it cannot write. I see no sign any access has occured at this point. If I try to repair the disk, it tells me to contact a service specialist and mentions error 200/662. There's no error 200 listed in the Lisa repair manual, but 662 is ProFile parity error. It's hard to believe that, since the drive passes format and certify on an Apple /// and MacWorksXL on the Lisa has no problem with it. I even tried removing the serialization on Office System disk 1. No joy. Something tells me I'm overlooking the obvious, but darned if I know what I'm doing wrong. Steve -- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 10 22:11:15 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 20:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) Message-ID: <201104110311.p3B3BFR7016242@floodgap.com> This is sad, though the project is going open source, but it would be nice to see someone continue the Kermit name. Ed's just the messenger; don't contact him about Kermit. ----- Forwarded message from Edward Vielmetti ----- From: Edward Vielmetti <..> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 21:30:29 -0400 Subject: Fwd: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years To: Cameron Kaiser [Charset UTF-8 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] If you know of any systematic efforts to take over orphaned projects, this would not be a bad one to scoop up and preserve (if only for the use of the name) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dave Farber Date: Fri, Apr 8, 2011 at 8:25 PM Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years To: ip Begin forwarded message: *From:* Harry Saal *Date:* April 8, 2011 8:23:38 PM EDT *To:* Dave Farber *Subject:* *Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years* I have fond memories of transferring files from BBS's using Kermit. >From http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ Columbia University is proud of its role in developing and supporting the Kermit protocol and software, first developed in 1981 by Columbia University to facilitate interconnection of diverse computers and transfer of data between them. Columbia has been pleased to offer the various versions of Kermit software for free or at exceptionally low fees over the years, providing what we believe has been a valuable contribution to the progress and popularization of computing over the past 30 years. Unfortunately, Columbia has determined it can no longer continue to support the Kermit Project going forward. As of July 1st, 2011, development of any new Kermit software enhancements at Columbia University will cease, as will any ability of Columbia to provide ongoing maintenance and technical support for Kermit. ----- End of forwarded message from Edward Vielmetti ----- -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ACTUAL CLASSIFIED AD: Parachute, used once, never opened, small stain. $100 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 22:19:50 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 23:19:50 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201104110311.p3B3BFR7016242@floodgap.com> References: <201104110311.p3B3BFR7016242@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > This is sad, though the project is going open source, but it would be > nice to see someone continue the Kermit name. Ed's just the messenger; > don't contact him about Kermit. To be realistic here - how much does Kermit really matter in today's IT environment, other that to to people like us? All good things... -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 00:14:50 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 22:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/10/11, William Donzelli wrote: > > To be realistic here - how much does Kermit really matter > in today's > IT environment, other that to to people like us? > > All good things... > Not only that, but lets be honest. The versions of Kermit that we use haven't been maintained for ten years or more already. They stopped maintaining the stuff for the Apple II, CP/M, DEC PDP-11, etc a long time ago. Just because they're not making new versions for new OS's doesn't mean that we still won't use it. This stuff has been more than stable for over a decade now. -Ian From tim.newsham+cctalk at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 00:15:46 2011 From: tim.newsham+cctalk at gmail.com (Tim Newsham) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 19:15:46 -1000 Subject: mockups? Message-ID: Is anyone selling working mockups of early model PDP-11s? Ie. something with console switches and blinkenlights that runs a simulator or uses a fpga implementation of a PDP11 and interfaces to some modern hardware like SATA drive.. From ceby2 at csc.com Mon Apr 11 03:09:47 2011 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:09:47 +0100 Subject: Data recovery on 8" System/36 diskettes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All -- Wondered if I could pick your collective brains. I'm helping a museum to recover data and software off 8" System/36 diskettes. The first batch is a DFU dataset. I've also got all the reference material I need on DFU and system utilities. But as I don't have PC Support/36 program media, I'm going to have to do this from a PC running an 8" driver rather than natively. To that end I've gathered up references to the IBM 2D disk format and a workstation where we're setting up a Catweasel controller and Shugart 8" drive. I'm aware of a number of utilities for forensics and disk control. Has anyone done this particular combination before? developed scripts? made cwfloppy modules for decoding the format? Any suggestions and guidance would be welcome. I'd also love to find a copy of PC Support/36 so that theoretically we could natively copy the files using 5250 workstation emulation. There is a 5362 system available to rebuild, and I have the SSP media to do the job. I also have an IBM P70 with a 5250 emulator card and software which could be used as the PC workstation, but I'm not aware of a source for this particular application media. Thanks, Colin Eby |------------> | From: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |cctalk-request at classiccmp.org | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | To: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |cctalk at classiccmp.org | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Date: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |09/04/2011 18:00 | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |------------> | Subject: | |------------> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| |cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 20 | >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly (Curt @ Atari Museum) 2. Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration (John Robertson) 3. DEC docs and machines available, Suffolk, UK (Adrian Graham) 4. New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) 5. Re: US manufacturing (was OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly) (Tim Shoppa) 6. *NEW* C64! (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) 7. Re: *NEW* C64! (Chuck Guzis) 8. RE: *NEW* C64! (Dan Gahlinger) 9. Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! (Tom) 10. Re: *NEW* C64! (Curt @ Atari Museum) 11. Re: *NEW* C64! (Cameron Kaiser) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 01:26:35 -0400 From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Subject: Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4D9FEE0B.4070009 at atarimuseum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I have a bunch of desktop reflow ovens for assembly, the CFL's do NOT like them at all, they all start to rapidly dim during the HEAT process of the ovens, not sure - must be a lot of noise or something, the ovens are on a different circuit so its not a voltage drain. Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 09/04/11 01:38, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> I have my plastics for my joysticks done out of Indiana, my PCB's from a >> firm in Utah, I source my IC's and components from Mouser. The only >> things I can't get here in the US are my custom silicon contact parts, >> there is no money in them, so nobody seems to want to do them and I >> can't find anyone in the US that actually MAKES, not sells USB cables, >> all the companies source them in from China, so I buy those direct. >> >> All of the assembly is done here in NY and shipped. > > Unfortunately it seems most of the UK manufacturing companies have > gone bust, and the few who are left aren't really interested in > small-scale work unless you're willing to pay well over the market > rate... > > The Eurocircuits boards were fairly reasonably priced, and much better > quality than the Gold Phoenix boards -- the soldermask is lighter, but > WAY thicker and tougher. On some of the early prototypes (before I > perfected the reflow profile) the soldermask started to split and > crack around the FPGA. > > Curiously enough, I never had that problem with the Eurocircuits > boards, even with the "omigosh it's burning!" reflow profile. Neither > board type took well to being pre-baked, though -- it's a pretty easy > way to oxidise the plating. Fixing that mess was great fun and > involved a bottle of metal polish, two bottles of PCB cleaner and one > of those brown rubber PCB cleaning blocks... > > Ick. Not gonna do that again. > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 13:47:57 -0700 From: John Robertson Subject: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Message-ID: <4D9F747D.9000701 at telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Steven Hirsch wrote: > Hi, > > I have two Lisa 2s in my possession that both exhibit serious > corrision from battery leakage. One is simply bad, the other is about > the worst such situation I've ever laid eyes on. > > I was able to remove the battery packs to halt the degradation, but > before I make a bad situation worse I thought I'd ask for some advice > on how to proceed. > > I'm also trying to work out what the units might be worth. The deal > with the seller is that I'm free to evaluate their condition and > attempt to get one working unit out of the two. Assuming a nominally > functional Lisa 2 with functional 10MB ProFile and fair cosmetic > condition, what do folks think is a fair price for that unit (the > owner wants whatever is left back, functioning or not)? > > Prices on eBay are really all over the map, so that's not of much help. > > Steve > > Depending on the type of rechargable battery used in your Lisa you should consider doing something to avoid corrosion on the circuit boards. I wrote a page on dealing with batteries for Pinballs and Jukeboxes, but the info applies to anything that is battery powered. http://flippers.com/battery.html If the battery was Ni-Cad, then the stuff that leaked out was an alkalye (base) and should be neutralized with a mild acid (white vinegar & h20 50/50) then rinsed and dried thoroughly. You really want to deal with this sooner, rather than later... John :-#(# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 00:01:34 +0100 From: Adrian Graham Subject: DEC docs and machines available, Suffolk, UK To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: chris bailey Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Folks, Please see this email from Chris Bailey and reply directly to him if interested. There's some really nice stuff in this collection of largely docs and maintenance spares, but also some VAXstations, cables (mostly serial BC03M/BC22D and thinwire), diagnostic floppies, VAX TU58s, a microfiche reader with quite a few fiches, and entire box of spare LS74 type chips, a bag of what looks like drive belts, rack kits for BA35x shelves, 2 BA23 backplanes, 3 boxes of 115v fans etc. I can go back and hold things for a while for interested parties but I have limited space myself these days :/ Some pix: (all between 300-600kb jpg) http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul01.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul02.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul03.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul04.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul05.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul06.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul07.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul08.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul09.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul10.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul11.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul12.jpg http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul13.jpg There's a cutoff date of 21st April since Chris doesn't live where the kit currently is, also there's more VAX docs and probably other spares up in the loft of the house that haven't been discovered yet. Note I've already picked up the Pro350s (well, 2 Pro350s and one VAX Console) because I don't have one and I know someone else who is looking for one. Cheers, and please help save this collection! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? Message from chris bailey (chr15bailey at yahoo.co.uk) on April 7th, 2011 at 01:27PM (BST). Hi, Im emailing you to see if you are interested in a load of vintage Digital Equipment Corporation computers etc. My dad has now passed away, but he was a DEC engineer for 20+years. He amassesd a whole load of DEC computers bits when he retired. We are now clearing out the garage but are not sure what to do with all this computer stuff, and just thought we'd see if anyone wants any of it before throwing it out. Here is a brief list of whats in the garage. TZ85 BA350 MA (X3) VAXSTATION 3100 (X2) VS42A-SN (X2) DEC PRO 350 (X3) LN08-A3-SN (LAZER PRINTER) RZ55-F3 (X2) TK50Z-63 HZ821-00 (dismantled state) V3201 (small monitor) VR297D3 (Big monitor) SC01-E (microfiche reader + inc microfiches) MICROVAX II (large) There are numerous boxes of manuals,disks, cables,circuit boards etc. A quick reply would be appreciated if you would like to have any of this, otherwise it will go to the tip. We live not far from Ipswich (Martlesham Heath) in Suffolk. Regards. Chris Bailey. ------ End of Forwarded Message ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 09:10:12 -0400 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20110409131013.045771E02A8 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Last weekend I promised to enable rsync access to the archives (and mirrors) here. I've set up the following rsync (no password required) archive sets here: ftp : Public rsync access to ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/ area pdp-10-tape-images : public rsync access to the PDP-10 tape images, i.e. http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ bitsavers-mirror : public rsync access to my local bitsavers mirror, i.e. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ Suggested rsync commands would be, for example: mkdir ./pdp-10-tape-images rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::pdp-10-tape-images ./pdp-10-tape-images mkdir ./ftp.trailing-edge.com rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::ftp ./ftp.trailing-edge.com mkdir ./bitsavers-mirror rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::bitsavers-mirror ./bitsavers-mirror Realistically the pdp-10-tape-images and ftp sites don't change often, butm my bitsavers mirror is kept up to date. I like to think my outgoing bandwidth (20 Mbit) is pretty much infinite, this looks like a good way to find out :-) ftp racks up to 3.5 Gbytes. PDP-10 tapes racks up to 2.2 Gbytes. And bitsavers-mirror racks up to 126 Gbytes. Tim. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:03:22 -0400 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Subject: Re: US manufacturing (was OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20110409140322.D34571E02A4 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> I can't find anyone in the US that actually MAKES, not sells USB cables, >>> all the companies source them in from China, so I buy those direct. > >> Unfortunately it seems most of the UK manufacturing companies have gone >> bust, and the few who are left aren't really interested in small-scale >> work unless you're willing to pay well over the market rate... > Same here. The once-mighty American manufacturing industry is all >but dead. It's pretty sad. Now China owns our asses. As to USB connectors.... I'm 99% sure that Keystone and Switchcraft are still made in the USA. A wide variety of more industrial (not so much consumer) plugs and jacks are still made in the USA by other respected names, too. Tim. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:53:17 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." Subject: *NEW* C64! To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <201104091053.17812.rtellason at verizon.net> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii heh... http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-nyt -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 08:43:32 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4DA01C34.14866.36E9DC at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 9 Apr 2011 at 10:53, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > heh... > > http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-n > yt I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... To my eye, the proportions of the thing don't look quite right. It looks quite a bit "thicker" (i.e. vertical dimension) than the original C64. So what's next? A S/360-40 lookalike with a P4 motherboard tucked inside? --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:13:54 -0400 From: Dan Gahlinger Subject: RE: *NEW* C64! To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" first of all, its vaporware - doesn't exist yet (taking orders does not mean product). secondly, just because it looks like a c64, doesn't make it a c64 its a PC running emulation software and cannot read or write real c64 disks either 1581 or 1541and you couldn't connect such a drive and make it work. why not just buy a mini pc for $100-$300 and run the emulation software yourself? oh, yeah it wouldn't look like a c64? ok, paint it. anyone who buys one of these is a moron ;) > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 08:43:32 -0700 > Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! > > On 9 Apr 2011 at 10:53, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > > > heh... > > > > http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-n > > yt > > I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to > shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... > > To my eye, the proportions of the thing don't look quite right. It > looks quite a bit "thicker" (i.e. vertical dimension) than the > original C64. > > So what's next? A S/360-40 lookalike with a P4 motherboard tucked > inside? > > --Chuck > ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:05:53 -0500 From: Tom Subject: Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4da08602.015de70a.014e.7372 at mx.google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Way off topic, sorry, just couldn't resist. News from our fellow IT industry workers in Russia: The chinese have invented a disk drive that allows you to write an infinite amount of data to it! Discovered by a Russian engineer. Be sure to click the 2nd picture for a close-up look at this amazing new technology. http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html 298 . [Literature] The secret to success as a short story writer is to find the guy who built Kuttner's (and later Silverberg's) water-cooled typewriter :) --Ahasuerus NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:39:31 -0400 From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4DA08BC3.5040905 at atarimuseum.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed It may have to be a little different in the dimensions to accomodate the Mini ITX motherboard that is inside of it. Its a great idea, but the pricing seems very high. Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Apr 2011 at 10:53, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > > >> heh... >> >> http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-n >> yt >> > > I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to > shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... > > To my eye, the proportions of the thing don't look quite right. It > looks quite a bit "thicker" (i.e. vertical dimension) than the > original C64. > > So what's next? A S/360-40 lookalike with a P4 motherboard tucked > inside? > > --Chuck > > > ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:48:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988 at floodgap.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to > shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... I'd rather have the Chameleon. Neat, and isn't vapourware. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. -- Oscar Wilde ---- End of cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 20 ************************************** From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 04:02:16 2011 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 02:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FF DEC Commercial Cab (UK) Message-ID: <887143.37614.qm@web56205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I have a spare DEC cabinet - which I think is called a 'commercial cabinet'. Its a cream / brown combination on casters. This a useful unit that lets you mount 3 standard DEC (6U?) boxes. The cabinet is in nice condition - and is complete with casters, the removable side panels and it also has the rear door. Its available in the UK - free - but needs to be collected. Contact me via email only if interested. Thanks. Ian. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 11 06:31:44 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:31:44 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> >Tim Newsham wrote: >Is anyone selling working mockups of early model PDP-11s? >Ie. something with console switches and blinkenlights that >runs a simulator or uses a fpga implementation of a PDP11 >and interfaces to some modern hardware like SATA drive.. > > YES!! My working mock-up does not look very much like any early Unibus PDP-11 (PDP-11/10 if that is your definition of an early model PDP-11????) on the outside, but the characters displayed to the screen on my monitor are exact duplicates of what would have been displayed on a VT100. I am not much of a hardware addict (my addiction is with software), so I also have not bothered to produce a bank of "console switches and blinkenlights" which would provide me with the additional look and feel of a PDP-11/10 system. I understand that they are possible for anyone who likes to pretend that they really are running a PDP-11/10. [What no one has ever managed to help me understand is what the purpose is of having the hardware look like the PDP-11/10. After you actually restore a real PDP-11/10, what can you do with it other than run a few programs that don't run very fast on that hardware. Or you can look and admire your effort, but then what? Of course, I can fix the many bugs in RT-11 and enhance that operating system as much as I can manage, but no one else seems even interested. So my software addiction to RT-11 seems just about as useful.] In general, I usually run my PDP-11 software on a mock-up which supports at least a PDP-11/23 CPU with 4 MegaBytes of mock-up memory. There are those SATA II drives hidden inside the mock-up and they tend to run a bit faster than the RK05 drives which were originally available on the PDP-11/10. In the actual mock-up that I just used yesterday to test the Y3K ready code in one of the programs that runs under RT-11, I actually had the mock-up configured to look like a PDP-11/73 with 4 MegaBytes of mock-up memory and SCSI drives (around a dozen or so) of 2 GigaBytes each (not much use under RT-11 to have more than 2 GigaBytes per SCSI mock-up drive since RT-11 can't easily see more than 2 GigaBytes of a disk drive at a time). As for the actual difference between what is displayed on the screen, the characters do look a bit different than a VT100 would display them (and if I choose, I could configure the mock-up to pretend that a PDP-11/10 was being run), but the software runs between 500 and 1000 times faster than a PDP-11/10 would run the program or about 100 times as fast as a PDP-11/93 runs the program. Also, the disk I/O is about 200 times faster than any SCSI disk drive connected to any Qbus PDP-11 (SATA III drives would be even faster, but I have yet to upgrade). If you want a commercial license for the software which runs the mock-up (you can probably get help here to produce the "console switches and blinkenlights" although I can't help you with that), the cost is about $ US 3000 if I remember correctly. You will need your own PC running Windows or DOS and be careful with the video card and monitor if you want it to display 132 character text lines in FULL SCREEN mode. Needless to say, for anyone who knows of may software addiction to RT-11, the software program to emulate a PDP-11 is called Ersatz-11. There is also a hobby version which you can download for free if you are not doing commercial work, i.e. not selling the results of your efforts. SIMH also does the same thing, although I have a problem with the screen display since SIMH does not have built-in emulation for the VT100 (or at least the last time I used SIMH, it did not). Does this VERY long response answer any of your questions? You did not say how much the mock-up had to actually look like the original PDP-11, so I assumed that as long as the input to the keyboard and output to the screen were correct as far as content, that would be sufficient (even though it was being displayed 1000 times as fast as an early PDP-11 system could support - interesting, my keyboard input never seems to be any faster than those original PDP-11 systems could support). Tim, please at least acknowledge my response and state if your definition of a PDP-11 mock-up required something that is close enough to a real PDP-11/10 to fool someone who has never seen a PDP-11/10 before. Or if the output to the screen was the key aspect (as long as the speed of the output was not a factor). Any other questions? Jerome Fine From vrs at msn.com Mon Apr 11 07:45:40 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 05:45:40 -0700 Subject: mockups? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Is anyone selling working mockups of early model PDP-11s? > Ie. something with console switches and blinkenlights that > runs a simulator or uses a fpga implementation of a PDP11 > and interfaces to some modern hardware like SATA drive.. Jerome mentioned some relevant software, but I thought perhaps you meant something more like this: http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/KY11_Interface.htm or perhaps like this? http://www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/newdesign/newdesign.html (Which you are supposed to get to by going to http://www.pdp-11.nl/ and using the 'homebrew "PDP-11" ' link at the left, then the "new design" link at the top.) Vince From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 11 07:46:43 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 07:46:43 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 12:14 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Sun, 4/10/11, William Donzelli wrote: > >> >> To be realistic here - how much does Kermit really matter >> in today's >> IT environment, other that to to people like us? >> >> All good things... >> > > Not only that, but lets be honest. The versions of Kermit that we use haven't been maintained for ten years or more already. They stopped maintaining the stuff for the Apple II, CP/M, DEC PDP-11, etc a long time ago. > > Just because they're not making new versions for new OS's doesn't mean that we still won't use it. This stuff has been more than stable for over a decade now. > > -Ian From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 08:20:47 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:20:47 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? As far as I can tell, Kermit was initially intended for use over serial links. A lot of its poor performance (which wasn't actually so bad over a decent link to a big iron system) comes from the fact that it places data integrity over speed in its priority list. While this was considered a bad thing in the world of BBSes, where slow links meant that every last bit per second was valuable, for faster local or leased line serial links there was no issue. Additionally, the focus on data integrity means that Kermit can be very useful over marginal lines such as third world telephone lines or ham radio modems. Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 08:59:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:59:53 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA30959.7070203@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 8:46 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during > my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that > wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet > switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? The file transfer protocol, or the program? I use the program all the time under OS X, usually to talk to network infrastructure hardware, mostly Cisco routers and switches. I also use it to talk to embedded designs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 09:28:44 2011 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 23:28:44 +0900 Subject: Plaintext green cards site - anyone know it? Message-ID: Hi folks, A while ago I came across a website hosting a number (IIRC) of CPU opcode list "green cards" in plain text format, laid out as a card in 3 columns that you printed out and folded up. I'm trying to google up said site but not having any success. I don't suppose anyone knows it and could provide a link? Thanks, Ed. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 09:28:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:28:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 7:31 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > SIMH also does the same thing, although I have a problem with the screen > display since SIMH does not have built-in emulation for the VT100 (or at > least the last time I used SIMH, it did not). Urr? This is not the responsibility of a processor emulator. At least it isn't on any sane platform. SIMH (the PDP-11 part of it) spits the characters out to its controlling terminal as it receives them from the emulated PDP-11's console (addr 777566) serial port. As all common CLI access programs (xterm/gnome-terminal/etc under most Unices including OS X, additionally Terminal.app and iTerm.app under OS X) all speak ANSI by default, you get the correct behavior even on the console. And the only PDP-11 OS in which one is essentially *required* to use the console all the time is RT-11, which is the least-capable of all of the various PDP-11 OSs anyway, perhaps excluding some very early stuff like CAPS-11 and DOS-11. (I'm not knocking either Ersatz-11 or RT-11, because I love 'em both, but just injecting a little reality here) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 11 09:38:29 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:38:29 +0100 Subject: Plaintext green cards site - anyone know it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA31265.2050707@philpem.me.uk> On 11/04/11 15:28, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Hi folks, > > A while ago I came across a website hosting a number (IIRC) of CPU > opcode list "green cards" in plain text format, laid out as a card in > 3 columns that you printed out and folded up. > > I'm trying to google up said site but not having any success. I don't > suppose anyone knows it and could provide a link? Hi Ed -- haven't seen you around these parts in a while... Sounds like you're after JP Bowen's "Bowen's Instruction Set Summary" cards. These were put together by Jonathan Bowen at the Oxford University Computing Lab. They used to hide somewhere on ox.ac.uk, but now they're on Jason Scott's textfiles.com archive: http://www.textfiles.com/programming/CARDS/ -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 10:01:17 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 08:01:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa Office System install blues.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <317682.35953.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 4/10/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > If I try to repair the disk, it tells me to contact a > service specialist and mentions error 200/662. There's > no error 200 listed in the Lisa repair manual, but 662 is > ProFile parity error. It's hard to believe that, since > the drive passes format and certify on an Apple /// and > MacWorksXL on the Lisa has no problem with it. > Are you running MacWorks on the same Lisa, or a different one? And can you write to the disk running MacWorks? Does the Profile pass the test when running LisaTest? Is this the same Lisa that had battery corrosion on the mouse connector? What kind of cable are you using to connect the Profile to the Lisa? I've had issues in the past with the crimp style ribbon cables coming apart at the edge and causing flakey behavior. I would double check by popping the card cage out of the Lisa and using a meter to check between the solder points on the board and the other end of the cable - make sure you don't have any corroded pins. Of course, pin 7 won't have continuity, since that's the key pin. -Ian From cube1 at charter.net Mon Apr 11 10:15:21 2011 From: cube1 at charter.net (cube1 at charter.net) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Data recovery on 8" System/36 diskettes Message-ID: <536a25a0.d044a.12f45219e91.Webtop.45@charter.net> I may have what you need. I read in some IBM 8100 disks using a Catweasel a few years back. I am at work now, but will provide the Catweasel config that I read them with. On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 3:09 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > All -- > > Wondered if I could pick your collective brains. I'm helping a museum > to > recover data and software off 8" System/36 diskettes. The first batch > is a > DFU dataset. I've also got all the reference material I need on DFU > and > system utilities. But as I don't have PC Support/36 program media, I'm > going to have to do this from a PC running an 8" driver rather than > natively. > > To that end I've gathered up references to the IBM 2D disk format and > a > workstation where we're setting up a Catweasel controller and Shugart > 8" > drive. I'm aware of a number of utilities for forensics and disk > control. > Has anyone done this particular combination before? developed scripts? > made cwfloppy modules for decoding the format? Any suggestions and > guidance > would be welcome. > > I'd also love to find a copy of PC Support/36 so that theoretically we > could natively copy the files using 5250 workstation emulation. There > is a > 5362 system available to rebuild, and I have the SSP media to do the > job. > I also have an IBM P70 with a 5250 emulator card and software which > could > be used as the PC workstation, but I'm not aware of a source for this > particular application media. > > Thanks, > Colin Eby > > > > |------------> > | From: | > |------------> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > |cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > | >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > |------------> > | To: | > |------------> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > |cctalk at classiccmp.org > | >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > |------------> > | Date: | > |------------> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > |09/04/2011 18:00 > | >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > |------------> > | Subject: | > |------------> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > |cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 20 > | >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| > > > > > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly > (Curt @ Atari Museum) > 2. Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration (John Robertson) > 3. DEC docs and machines available, Suffolk, UK (Adrian Graham) > 4. New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > 5. Re: US manufacturing (was OT: Incandescent lamps get a > reprieve, possiblly) (Tim Shoppa) > 6. *NEW* C64! (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) > 7. Re: *NEW* C64! (Chuck Guzis) > 8. RE: *NEW* C64! (Dan Gahlinger) > 9. Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! (Tom) > 10. Re: *NEW* C64! (Curt @ Atari Museum) > 11. Re: *NEW* C64! (Cameron Kaiser) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 01:26:35 -0400 > From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > Subject: Re: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4D9FEE0B.4070009 at atarimuseum.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I have a bunch of desktop reflow ovens for assembly, the CFL's do NOT > like them at all, they all start to rapidly dim during the HEAT > process > of the ovens, not sure - must be a lot of noise or something, the > ovens > are on a different circuit so its not a voltage drain. > > > > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> On 09/04/11 01:38, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> I have my plastics for my joysticks done out of Indiana, my PCB's >>> from a >>> firm in Utah, I source my IC's and components from Mouser. The only >>> things I can't get here in the US are my custom silicon contact >>> parts, >>> there is no money in them, so nobody seems to want to do them and I >>> can't find anyone in the US that actually MAKES, not sells USB >>> cables, >>> all the companies source them in from China, so I buy those direct. >>> >>> All of the assembly is done here in NY and shipped. >> >> Unfortunately it seems most of the UK manufacturing companies have >> gone bust, and the few who are left aren't really interested in >> small-scale work unless you're willing to pay well over the market >> rate... >> >> The Eurocircuits boards were fairly reasonably priced, and much >> better >> quality than the Gold Phoenix boards -- the soldermask is lighter, >> but >> WAY thicker and tougher. On some of the early prototypes (before I >> perfected the reflow profile) the soldermask started to split and >> crack around the FPGA. >> >> Curiously enough, I never had that problem with the Eurocircuits >> boards, even with the "omigosh it's burning!" reflow profile. Neither >> board type took well to being pre-baked, though -- it's a pretty easy >> way to oxidise the plating. Fixing that mess was great fun and >> involved a bottle of metal polish, two bottles of PCB cleaner and one >> of those brown rubber PCB cleaning blocks... >> >> Ick. Not gonna do that again. >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 13:47:57 -0700 > From: John Robertson > Subject: Re: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Message-ID: <4D9F747D.9000701 at telus.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have two Lisa 2s in my possession that both exhibit serious >> corrision from battery leakage. One is simply bad, the other is >> about >> the worst such situation I've ever laid eyes on. >> >> I was able to remove the battery packs to halt the degradation, but >> before I make a bad situation worse I thought I'd ask for some advice >> on how to proceed. >> >> I'm also trying to work out what the units might be worth. The deal >> with the seller is that I'm free to evaluate their condition and >> attempt to get one working unit out of the two. Assuming a nominally >> functional Lisa 2 with functional 10MB ProFile and fair cosmetic >> condition, what do folks think is a fair price for that unit (the >> owner wants whatever is left back, functioning or not)? >> >> Prices on eBay are really all over the map, so that's not of much >> help. >> >> Steve >> >> > Depending on the type of rechargable battery used in your Lisa you > should consider doing something to avoid corrosion on the circuit > boards. I wrote a page on dealing with batteries for Pinballs and > Jukeboxes, but the info applies to anything that is battery powered. > http://flippers.com/battery.html > > If the battery was Ni-Cad, then the stuff that leaked out was an > alkalye > (base) and should be neutralized with a mild acid (white vinegar & h20 > 50/50) then rinsed and dried thoroughly. > > You really want to deal with this sooner, rather than later... > > John :-#(# > > -- > John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 > Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) > www.flippers.com > "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 00:01:34 +0100 > From: Adrian Graham > Subject: DEC docs and machines available, Suffolk, UK > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: chris bailey > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Folks, > > Please see this email from Chris Bailey and reply directly to him if > interested. There's some really nice stuff in this collection of > largely > docs and maintenance spares, but also some VAXstations, cables (mostly > serial BC03M/BC22D and thinwire), diagnostic floppies, VAX TU58s, a > microfiche reader with quite a few fiches, and entire box of spare > LS74 > type > chips, a bag of what looks like drive belts, rack kits for BA35x > shelves, 2 > BA23 backplanes, 3 boxes of 115v fans etc. > > I can go back and hold things for a while for interested parties but I > have > limited space myself these days :/ > > Some pix: (all between 300-600kb jpg) > > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul01.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul02.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul03.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul04.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul05.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul06.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul07.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul08.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul09.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul10.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul11.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul12.jpg > http://f0p.co.uk/DEChaul13.jpg > > There's a cutoff date of 21st April since Chris doesn't live where the > kit > currently is, also there's more VAX docs and probably other spares up > in > the > loft of the house that haven't been discovered yet. Note I've already > picked > up the Pro350s (well, 2 Pro350s and one VAX Console) because I don't > have > one and I know someone else who is looking for one. > > Cheers, and please help save this collection! > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > Message from chris bailey (chr15bailey at yahoo.co.uk) on April 7th, 2011 > at > 01:27PM (BST). > > Hi, Im emailing you to see if you are interested in a load of vintage > Digital Equipment Corporation computers etc. > My dad has now passed away, but he was a DEC engineer for 20+years. > He > amassesd a whole load of DEC computers bits when he retired. > We are now clearing out the garage but are not sure what to do with > all > this > computer stuff, and just thought we'd see if anyone wants any of it > before > throwing it out. > Here is a brief list of whats in the garage. > > TZ85 > BA350 MA (X3) > VAXSTATION 3100 (X2) > VS42A-SN (X2) > DEC PRO 350 (X3) > LN08-A3-SN (LAZER PRINTER) > RZ55-F3 (X2) > TK50Z-63 > HZ821-00 (dismantled state) > V3201 (small monitor) > VR297D3 (Big monitor) > SC01-E (microfiche reader + inc microfiches) > MICROVAX II (large) > > There are numerous boxes of manuals,disks, cables,circuit boards etc. > > A quick reply would be appreciated if you would like to have any of > this, > otherwise it will go to the tip. > > We live not far from Ipswich (Martlesham Heath) in Suffolk. > > Regards. > Chris Bailey. > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 09:10:12 -0400 > From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Subject: New rsync mirroring at trailing-edge.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20110409131013.045771E02A8 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Last weekend I promised to enable rsync access to the archives > (and mirrors) here. > > I've set up the following rsync (no password required) archive sets > here: > > ftp : Public rsync access to ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/ area > pdp-10-tape-images : public rsync access to the PDP-10 tape images, > i.e. http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ > bitsavers-mirror : public rsync access to my local bitsavers mirror, > i.e. > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ > > Suggested rsync commands would be, for example: > > mkdir ./pdp-10-tape-images > rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::pdp-10-tape-images > ./pdp-10-tape-images > > mkdir ./ftp.trailing-edge.com > rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::ftp ./ftp.trailing-edge.com > > mkdir ./bitsavers-mirror > rsync -rlptu -v www.trailing-edge.com::bitsavers-mirror > ./bitsavers-mirror > > Realistically the pdp-10-tape-images and ftp sites don't change often, > butm my bitsavers mirror is kept up to date. > > I like to think my outgoing bandwidth (20 Mbit) is pretty much > infinite, > this looks like a good way to find out :-) > > ftp racks up to 3.5 Gbytes. PDP-10 tapes racks up to 2.2 Gbytes. And > bitsavers-mirror racks up to 126 Gbytes. > > Tim. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:03:22 -0400 > From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Subject: Re: US manufacturing (was OT: Incandescent lamps get a > reprieve, possiblly) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20110409140322.D34571E02A4 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >>>> I can't find anyone in the US that actually MAKES, not sells USB > cables, >>>> all the companies source them in from China, so I buy those direct. >> >>> Unfortunately it seems most of the UK manufacturing companies have >>> gone >>> bust, and the few who are left aren't really interested in >>> small-scale >>> work unless you're willing to pay well over the market rate... >> Same here. The once-mighty American manufacturing industry is all >> but dead. It's pretty sad. Now China owns our asses. > > As to USB connectors.... I'm 99% sure that Keystone and Switchcraft > are still made in the USA. A wide variety of more industrial (not > so much consumer) plugs and jacks are still made in the USA by other > respected names, too. > > Tim. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:53:17 -0400 > From: "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." > Subject: *NEW* C64! > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <201104091053.17812.rtellason at verizon.net> > Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii > > heh... > > > http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-nyt > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet > Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. > --James > M Dakin > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 08:43:32 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4DA01C34.14866.36E9DC at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 9 Apr 2011 at 10:53, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > >> heh... >> >> >> http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-n >> yt > > I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to > shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... > > To my eye, the proportions of the thing don't look quite right. It > looks quite a bit "thicker" (i.e. vertical dimension) than the > original C64. > > So what's next? A S/360-40 lookalike with a P4 motherboard tucked > inside? > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:13:54 -0400 > From: Dan Gahlinger > Subject: RE: *NEW* C64! > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > first of all, its vaporware - doesn't exist yet (taking orders does > not > mean product). > secondly, just because it looks like a c64, doesn't make it a c64 > its a PC running emulation software and cannot read or write real c64 > disks > either 1581 or 1541and you couldn't connect such a drive and make it > work. > why not just buy a mini pc for $100-$300 and run the emulation > software > yourself? > oh, yeah it wouldn't look like a c64? ok, paint it. > anyone who buys one of these is a moron ;) > >> From: cclist at sydex.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 08:43:32 -0700 >> Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! >> >> On 9 Apr 2011 at 10:53, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: >> >>> heh... >>> >>> >>> http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-n >>> yt >> >> I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to >> shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... >> >> To my eye, the proportions of the thing don't look quite right. It >> looks quite a bit "thicker" (i.e. vertical dimension) than the >> original C64. >> >> So what's next? A S/360-40 lookalike with a P4 motherboard tucked >> inside? >> >> --Chuck >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:05:53 -0500 > From: Tom > Subject: Quantum leap in disk storage discovered! > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4da08602.015de70a.014e.7372 at mx.google.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed > > Way off topic, sorry, just couldn't resist. > > News from our fellow IT industry workers in > Russia: The chinese have invented a disk drive > that allows you to write an infinite amount of > data to it! Discovered by a Russian engineer. Be > sure to click the 2nd picture for a close-up look > at this amazing new technology. > > http://blog.jitbit.com/2011/04/chinese-magic-drive.html > > > > > > 298 . [Literature] The secret to success as a > short story writer is to find the guy who built > Kuttner's (and later Silverberg's) water-cooled typewriter :) > --Ahasuerus > NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON > FACEBOOK > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc > LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician > ? Registered Linux User 385531 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:39:31 -0400 > From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4DA08BC3.5040905 at atarimuseum.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > It may have to be a little different in the dimensions to accomodate > the > Mini ITX motherboard that is inside of it. Its a great idea, but > the pricing seems very high. > > > > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 9 Apr 2011 at 10:53, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: >> >> >>> heh... >>> >>> >>> http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home/article/112510/new-commodore-64-n >>> yt >>> >> >> I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to >> shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... >> >> To my eye, the proportions of the thing don't look quite right. It >> looks quite a bit "thicker" (i.e. vertical dimension) than the >> original C64. >> >> So what's next? A S/360-40 lookalike with a P4 motherboard tucked >> inside? >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 09:48:12 -0700 (PDT) > From: Cameron Kaiser > Subject: Re: *NEW* C64! > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <201104091648.p39GmCi9014988 at floodgap.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >> I wonder how many support calls they'll get when customers try to >> shove old 5.25" C64 floppies into the CD slot... > > I'd rather have the Chameleon. Neat, and isn't vapourware. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes. -- Oscar > Wilde > ---- > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 20 > ************************************** From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 10:32:48 2011 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 00:32:48 +0900 Subject: Plaintext green cards site - anyone know it? In-Reply-To: <4DA31265.2050707@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DA31265.2050707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:38 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi Ed -- haven't seen you around these parts in a while... Been a bit on the busy side, chap. > http://www.textfiles.com/programming/CARDS/ And a beer goes to Phil when I next meet up with him :D This is the very data. Nice work! Ed. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 11 10:33:32 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:33:32 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <563448.86523.qm@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <563448.86523.qm@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201104111133.32534.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 08 April 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Most CFLs are garbage and hugely wasteful. I used to > > scavenge the > > components from the bases, but gave up after I accumulated > > a pile of > > the things (funny, they were supposed to last longer than > > that). Why > > on earth aren't they made with replaceable fluorescent > > tubes like the > > old days? > > I've had to replace a lot of them too. Due to the fact that I usually > forget to turn the lights off in the basement (shop area has normal > flourescents, but the basement main lights are standard edison > base), I installed CFL's, thinking it would save a little > electricity. They haven't lasted very long - and as they've died > I've put the incandescents back in. What's troubling to me about > CFL's is that a couple of the failed ones have been burnt and > blackened around the base. One was melted badly. While I know the > risk of fire is low, it's still troubiling to see the electronics > fail so catastrophically. And these were GE branded bulbs (not like > GE actually makes, the things, but still). It's probably because you installed them upside down. Previous CFL discussions on cctalk have mentioned this... they generally depend on being upright, or possibly sideways, but definitely not upside down for convective cooling of the electronics to work. You're probably better off buying a bunch of $10 dual 4' fluorescent "shop light" fixtures, than attempting to use CF bulbs in that arrangement. Plus, they give off a lot more light than a 60-100W incandescent bulb. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 11 10:33:38 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:33:38 -0400 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com> <4D9ECDE0.1871.21BD63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201104111133.39174.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 08 April 2011, Richard wrote: > Its completely stupid that incandescents are being banned anyway. If > the user wants to pay more for the warm lighting they provide, that's > their choice. Noone and nothing is harmed except the purchaser's > wallet. What's funny, is that incandescent bulbs aren't really getting banned. The law requires blubs that are something like 25% more efficient. Halogen (filament-based) bulbs will still be legal, as well as any incandescent that someone figures out how to make more efficient. Of course, everyone doesn't bother looking at what's happening, and says OMG! CHANGE! WTF! Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Apr 11 10:40:53 2011 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:40:53 +0200 Subject: VAX 7810, VAX 3620 and VAX 3610 available in Detroit In-Reply-To: <4DA0DAA0.CC91D639@atsgate.com> References: <4DA0DAA0.CC91D639@atsgate.com> Message-ID: <20110411154053.GT21561@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2011-04-09 16:16:00 -0600, Scott Mickey wrote: > > Has anyone noticed these big VAXen available in Detroit? > http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/sys/2257545671.html I'd love to fetch them--if they weren't basically on the other side of the globe. I'd be specifically interested in the 7810... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html the second : From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 11:03:45 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:03:45 +0100 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7 April 2011 02:14, Chris M wrote: > I know I have Quick Basic 3.n, and maybe even Quick C somewhere. > > Quick C had become popular w/developers (not for primary use) long after M$ canned it. Not sure why, maybe they just liked the IDE. And liked using it for quick and dirty tasks. > > I spied QB 4.5 on eBay, brand new (someone placed a bid, I won't at this juncture). Is there any big difference between early versions of QB or QC? Early version of Visual C++ for instance are doggish compared to later ones, but that's a different world. QB3 was a sort of upgraded GW-BASIC with a compiler. QB4 was a major update. It's a block-structured language, no line numbers, no colon-separated multiple statements per line, with named procedures, local and global variables, recursion etc. It was a leap to get used to it, but I rather liked it. > Already straying offtopic, a book I own states that Delphi could be used to write Visual Basic, but not the other way around. Neither way, AFAIK. Delphi=updated Borland Object Pascal, not a BASIC. > I'll assume Quick C could be used to write Quick Basic, but what about the other way around? Again, neither, AFAIK. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 11 11:06:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:06:06 -0700 Subject: OT: Incandescent lamps get a reprieve, possiblly In-Reply-To: <201104111133.39174.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4D9E262B.14372.28D23AC@cclist.sydex.com>, , <201104111133.39174.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4DA2C47E.14701.CF91B@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2011 at 11:33, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > What's funny, is that incandescent bulbs aren't really getting banned. > The law requires bulbs that are something like 25% more efficient. > Halogen (filament-based) bulbs will still be legal, as well as any > incandescent that someone figures out how to make more efficient. Oh, you mean like the now-abandoned GE HEI program? As far as the "burn base down" CFL issue, manufacturers have universally decided to ignore the problem that the recessed "can" is one of the most ubiquitous fixtures in homes built since 1980. And they're all built-in, so replacing the fixtures is not a realistic option. What's even stranger is that all manufacturers provide sealed R38 flood CFL replacements, which can't usefully be used base-down, unless I suppose one wants to sit in the dark while the ceiling is illuminated. By my guess, LED incandescent replacements will suffer from the same issues, only be an order of magnitude more expensive. That's real progress... --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 11 11:10:54 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Liam Proven wrote: >> Quick C had become popular w/developers (not for primary use) long >> after M$ canned it. Not sure why, maybe they just liked the IDE. And >> liked using it for quick and dirty tasks. > Eh? I've NEVER seen Quick C in "mainstream" use. You sure you're not thinking of Turbo C? >> I spied QB 4.5 on eBay, brand new (someone placed a bid, I won't at >> this juncture). Is there any big difference between early versions of >> QB or QC? Early version of Visual C++ for instance are doggish compared >> to later ones, but that's a different world. > A brand new QB45 would be fun to have - then again, so would PDS 7.1 with a manual set. *wistful sigh* >> Already straying offtopic, a book I own states that Delphi could be >> used to write Visual Basic, but not the other way around. > > Neither way, AFAIK. Delphi=updated Borland Object Pascal, not a BASIC. > Delphi could be used to create ActiveX controls for VB, but VB could not create components for Delphi - unless they were ActiveX controls in which case Delphi could use them. >> I'll assume Quick C could be used to write Quick Basic, but what about >> the other way around? > Quick C and QB were _completely_ different product lines and languages. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dmabry at mich.com Mon Apr 11 08:30:49 2011 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:30:49 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> Geoff Oltmans said the following on 4/11/2011 8:46 AM: > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? > > Sent from my iPhone > Well, yes, I still use it. I have occasionally needed to copy files from an 8" floppy either in ISIS-II or CP/M format to a PC for archive on optical media or to email to someone. The Intel MDS systems I have run Kermit nicely. And the standard Windows software has hyperterminal with kermit protocol. So Kermit makes it easy to transfer to/from dissimilar systems that can't be networked. Sure it's slow. But it's very stable and reliable. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 11 11:29:30 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:29:30 -0500 Subject: Dave Haynie's Garage Sale Message-ID: <201104111629.p3BGToBG070128@billY.EZWIND.NET> Commodore and Amiga fans, note: http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=haynie%27s+garage&_sacat=See-All-Categories - John From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 11 11:39:15 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:39:15 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> Message-ID: <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> This doesn't strike me as a typical use case though. :) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Dave Mabry wrote: > Geoff Oltmans said the following on 4/11/2011 8:46 AM: >> Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > Well, yes, I still use it. I have occasionally needed to copy files from an 8" floppy either in ISIS-II or CP/M format to a PC for archive on optical media or to email to someone. The Intel MDS systems I have run Kermit nicely. And the standard Windows software has hyperterminal with kermit protocol. So Kermit makes it easy to transfer to/from dissimilar systems that can't be networked. > > Sure it's slow. But it's very stable and reliable. > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 11 11:41:14 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:41:14 +0100 Subject: FF DEC Commercial Cab (UK) In-Reply-To: <887143.37614.qm@web56205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <887143.37614.qm@web56205.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <045201cbf867$477ebfc0$d67c3f40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of silvercreekvalley > Sent: 11 April 2011 10:02 > To: cctalk > Subject: FF DEC Commercial Cab (UK) > > I have a spare DEC cabinet - which I think is called a 'commercial cabinet'. Its > a > > cream / brown combination on casters. > > This a useful unit that lets you mount 3 standard DEC (6U?) boxes. > > The cabinet is in nice condition - and is complete with casters, the > removable side panels and it also has the rear door. > > Its available in the UK - free - but needs to be collected. > > Contact me via email only if interested. > > Thanks. Ian. Ian, Do you have a picture? Regards Rob From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Apr 11 11:42:28 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 18:42:28 +0200 Subject: mockups? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As addendum to what Vince wrote. If you go to www.pdp-11.nl , use the navigation at the left side and check out "PDP-11/70 console" in the "my projects" folder. I should make more pictures. You can see the floppy disk at the right side. At the left side is the CD-ROM drive. Serial and parallel port is on the rear side, and still to make a panel will be the USB and ethernet RJ45 socket. It boots RT-11, RSX and RSTS. I have an image for Ultrix but never took the time to get that one started ... so many things to do, soooo little time! - Henk -------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Newsham" Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 7:15 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: mockups? > Is anyone selling working mockups of early model PDP-11s? > Ie. something with console switches and blinkenlights that > runs a simulator or uses a fpga implementation of a PDP11 > and interfaces to some modern hardware like SATA drive.. > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 11 11:47:56 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> from Geoff Oltmans at "Apr 11, 11 11:39:15 am" Message-ID: <201104111647.p3BGluCB016786@floodgap.com> > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? I myself use it to mostly glue systems together that need to exchange files, knowing that there is probably a Kermit implementation available for both ends. And the Commodore 128 Kermit was the way I accessed my shell account until I got my first Mac. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I, for one, welcome our new C64 overlords. -- John Floren ------------------ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 11 11:52:59 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:52:59 +0100 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA331EB.3040109@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/04/2011 13:46, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during > my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that > wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet > switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? It was originally designed for serial lines, and designed specifically to be reliable. If left at the safest settings for an unknown connection, yes, it would be slower than, say, Z-modem, but properly configured, it would actually be just as fast as anything else. Sometimes faster, actually. And it would work in lots of places Z-modem and its parents wouldn't. As for "rarely supported", if you mean on BBSs, probably, but it actually has far wider OS support than anything else I can think of, and lots of places still use it for serial connections. As Ian said, it's been stable for ages, so if it ain't broke... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 11 11:55:10 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:55:10 +0100 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/04/2011 17:39, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > This doesn't strike me as a typical use case though. :) Actually that /is/ a typical case. It's exactly the sort of thing Kermit was designed for, and probably more common than BBSs. > On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Dave Mabry wrote: >> Well, yes, I still use it. I have occasionally needed to copy >> files from an 8" floppy either in ISIS-II or CP/M format to a PC >> for archive on optical media or to email to someone. The Intel MDS >> systems I have run Kermit nicely. And the standard Windows >> software has hyperterminal with kermit protocol. So Kermit makes >> it easy to transfer to/from dissimilar systems that can't be >> networked. >> >> Sure it's slow. But it's very stable and reliable. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 11 12:00:30 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 10:00:30 -0700 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com>, <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: What's a "typical use case" for this group? :-) Yes, we use it too - I use it to get file images onto a PDP-8/e. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Oltmans [oltmansg at bellsouth.net] Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 9:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) This doesn't strike me as a typical use case though. :) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Dave Mabry wrote: > Geoff Oltmans said the following on 4/11/2011 8:46 AM: >> Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > Well, yes, I still use it. I have occasionally needed to copy files from an 8" floppy either in ISIS-II or CP/M format to a PC for archive on optical media or to email to someone. The Intel MDS systems I have run Kermit nicely. And the standard Windows software has hyperterminal with kermit protocol. So Kermit makes it easy to transfer to/from dissimilar systems that can't be networked. > > Sure it's slow. But it's very stable and reliable. > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 12:27:41 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Office System install blues.. In-Reply-To: <317682.35953.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <317682.35953.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Sun, 4/10/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> If I try to repair the disk, it tells me to contact a >> service specialist and mentions error 200/662. There's >> no error 200 listed in the Lisa repair manual, but 662 is >> ProFile parity error. It's hard to believe that, since >> the drive passes format and certify on an Apple /// and >> MacWorksXL on the Lisa has no problem with it. >> > > Are you running MacWorks on the same Lisa, or a different one? Same machine. > And can > you write to the disk running MacWorks? Yes, it intializes the ProFile and copies itself. I can then boot MacWorks from the hard disk, so I know it was really written. > Does the Profile pass the test > when running LisaTest? No, it fails under LisaTest with the same odd symptoms: No sign that it's even trying to access the disk! Just goes away for a a bit and announces a fail. I never see the ProFile light flicker. I'm starting to wonder if Lisa OS has stricter timing or perhaps checks parity while MacOS does not. > Is this the same Lisa that had battery corrosion > on the mouse connector? Yes, but I've cleaned that up since. Are you thinking that something adjacent was also damaged? If so, why does it work under MacWorks for both read and write. I'll take another very close look at the connector. > What kind of cable are you using to connect the Profile to the Lisa? > I've had issues in the past with the crimp style ribbon cables coming > apart at the edge and causing flakey behavior. I've tried two different ribbon cables, plus a nice shielded ProFile cable. > I would double check by popping the card cage out of the Lisa and using > a meter to check between the solder points on the board and the other > end of the cable - make sure you don't have any corroded pins. Of > course, pin 7 won't have continuity, since that's the key pin. Yes, I agree with that completely. Will start ringing it out this evening. -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 12:34:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:34:28 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA331EB.3040109@dunnington.plus.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA331EB.3040109@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DA33BA4.1070009@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 12:52 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > It was originally designed for serial lines, and designed specifically > to be reliable. If left at the safest settings for an unknown > connection, yes, it would be slower than, say, Z-modem, but properly > configured, it would actually be just as fast as anything else. > Sometimes faster, actually. And it would work in lots of places Z-modem > and its parents wouldn't. As for "rarely supported", if you mean on > BBSs, probably, but it actually has far wider OS support than anything > else I can think of, and lots of places still use it for serial > connections. Exactly. Here are some settings from my ~/.kermrc that I use for good file transfer performance on low-latency connections: set rec packet 4096 set send packet 4096 set window 4 set block 3 set file type binary > As Ian said, it's been stable for ages, so if it ain't broke... Yep. It's probably one of the few instances of a software project being truly "done". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ray at arachelian.com Mon Apr 11 12:35:25 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:35:25 -0400 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> On 04/09/2011 04:43 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > First a question for other Lisa owners: > > Could an error 10707 result from attempting to startup Lisa Office > from a ProFile that was configured while attached to a different > machine? I believe there's some sort of node-locking that occurs > during installation, but I'm not sure what the symptoms of a mismatch > might be. http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-sw-los_error_codes.html 10707 Cannot initialize the File System volume So doesn't look like it can see the drive, or the file system is messed up? If you move the ProFile to another Lisa, it should start up, but the tools LisaWrite, etc. won't work. I've seen this kind of thing when I had a Profile on a parallel port card, and moved it to the motherboard parallel port or vice versa, though with a different error code. Not sure that would help anything, but if you did something like that, might be worth moving it to the same slot and port. (Yes, it does care about which expansion slot # the card is in.) Baring that, the file system could just be toast and you'd need to run scavenge or reinstall it. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 12:37:25 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:37:25 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Ian King wrote: > What's a "typical use case" for this group? ?:-) ?Yes, we use it too - I use it to get file images onto a PDP-8/e. ?-- Ian Indeed. Kermit-12 is quite handy. I myself use Kermit for DOS and a packet driver to get files to a 286 to run an old EPROM/GAL burner that won't run on faster hardware. Yes, I can use a newer device programmer, but this works just fine. Other than that, I tend to use Kermit more often as a VT100 emulator than a file-transfer application. -ethan From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 11 13:14:51 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:14:51 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> What, copying files off of obsolete machines? That's not what I was talking about. How about a more modern application? Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 11:55 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/04/2011 17:39, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> This doesn't strike me as a typical use case though. :) > > Actually that /is/ a typical case. It's exactly the sort of thing > Kermit was designed for, and probably more common than BBSs. > >> On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Dave Mabry wrote: >>> Well, yes, I still use it. I have occasionally needed to copy >>> files from an 8" floppy either in ISIS-II or CP/M format to a PC >>> for archive on optical media or to email to someone. The Intel MDS >>> systems I have run Kermit nicely. And the standard Windows >>> software has hyperterminal with kermit protocol. So Kermit makes >>> it easy to transfer to/from dissimilar systems that can't be >>> networked. >>> Sure it's slow. But it's very stable and reliable. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 13:25:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:25:29 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA34799.4070506@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 2:14 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > What, copying files off of obsolete machines? That's not what I was talking about. How about a more modern application? Talking to console ports, for one. Anyone who does any sort of real networking work has to do that all the time. Ditto for nearly any embedded systems work. These aren't exactly shrinking fields. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 11 13:44:11 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:44:11 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA34799.4070506@neurotica.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> <4DA34799.4070506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I work in embedded system design for telecom equip and have for the past 10 years. I haven't heard of anyone using it in that capacity. Typically we see people using some flavor of xmodem or ymodem, but I admit I'm unfamiliar with how things might be deployed in a network environment (since theres basically unlimited ways to architect a network), or what other manufacturers do. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/11/11 2:14 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> What, copying files off of obsolete machines? That's not what I was talking about. How about a more modern application? > > Talking to console ports, for one. Anyone who does any sort of real networking work has to do that all the time. Ditto for nearly any embedded systems work. These aren't exactly shrinking fields. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 13:47:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:47:49 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> <4DA34799.4070506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA34CD5.9050207@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 2:44 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I work in embedded system design for telecom equip and have for the past 10 years. I haven't heard of anyone using it in that capacity. Typically we see people using some flavor of xmodem or ymodem, but I admit I'm unfamiliar with how things might be deployed in a network environment (since theres basically unlimited ways to architect a network), or what other manufacturers do. If you're talking about xmodem/ymodem, you're likely talking about installing firmware. I'm talking about using kermit (the program, not the file transfer protocol) to interact with embedded machines for interactive configuration and/or debugging. This is extremely common. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 13:51:17 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA34CD5.9050207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <718603.30741.qm@web121609.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > If you're talking about xmodem/ymodem, you're likely > talking about installing firmware. I'm talking about > using kermit (the program, not the file transfer protocol) > to interact with embedded machines for interactive > configuration and/or debugging. This is extremely > common. > Yes - using kermit as a terminal emulator is very common. It can be less of a pain to work with than minicom. -Ian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 11 13:53:05 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:53:05 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA34CD5.9050207@neurotica.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> <4DA34799.4070506@neurotica.com> <4DA34CD5.9050207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6BCEBEB0-D9E8-4257-B26F-0BC6F5998D35@bellsouth.net> Ah so. I was mistaken about the use of the program vs protocol. Confusing! :) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/11/11 2:44 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> I work in embedded system design for telecom equip and have for the past 10 years. I haven't heard of anyone using it in that capacity. Typically we see people using some flavor of xmodem or ymodem, but I admit I'm unfamiliar with how things might be deployed in a network environment (since theres basically unlimited ways to architect a network), or what other manufacturers do. > > If you're talking about xmodem/ymodem, you're likely talking about installing firmware. I'm talking about using kermit (the program, not the file transfer protocol) to interact with embedded machines for interactive configuration and/or debugging. This is extremely common. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 11 13:54:50 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:54:50 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <718603.30741.qm@web121609.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <718603.30741.qm@web121609.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <529C054C-089D-4E2E-BD95-70AA1ECAEACE@bellsouth.net> I've always used minicom. I wonder if this is a case of emacs vs vi. :) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:51 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> If you're talking about xmodem/ymodem, you're likely >> talking about installing firmware. I'm talking about >> using kermit (the program, not the file transfer protocol) >> to interact with embedded machines for interactive >> configuration and/or debugging. This is extremely >> common. >> > > Yes - using kermit as a terminal emulator is very common. It can be less of a pain to work with than minicom. > > -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 13:54:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:54:48 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <6BCEBEB0-D9E8-4257-B26F-0BC6F5998D35@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> <4DA34799.4070506@neurotica.com> <4DA34CD5.9050207@neurotica.com> <6BCEBEB0-D9E8-4257-B26F-0BC6F5998D35@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA34E78.4050403@neurotica.com> Yes it is. I apologize for not being more specific. -Dave On 4/11/11 2:53 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Ah so. I was mistaken about the use of the program vs protocol. Confusing! :) > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 4/11/11 2:44 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >>> I work in embedded system design for telecom equip and have for the past 10 years. I haven't heard of anyone using it in that capacity. Typically we see people using some flavor of xmodem or ymodem, but I admit I'm unfamiliar with how things might be deployed in a network environment (since theres basically unlimited ways to architect a network), or what other manufacturers do. >> >> If you're talking about xmodem/ymodem, you're likely talking about installing firmware. I'm talking about using kermit (the program, not the file transfer protocol) to interact with embedded machines for interactive configuration and/or debugging. This is extremely common. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 13:55:30 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 11:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <6BCEBEB0-D9E8-4257-B26F-0BC6F5998D35@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <92082.72523.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Ah so. I was mistaken about the use > of the program vs protocol. Confusing! :) > > Sent from my iPhone > Almost as confusing as top posting! -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 13:57:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:57:25 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <529C054C-089D-4E2E-BD95-70AA1ECAEACE@bellsouth.net> References: <718603.30741.qm@web121609.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <529C054C-089D-4E2E-BD95-70AA1ECAEACE@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA34F15.4000503@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 2:54 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I've always used minicom. I wonder if this is a case of emacs vs vi. :) Probably. :) Minicom works well, but after having used Kermit (the program ;)) for two and a half decades, and having it be substantially the same and very predictable on every platform, it became pretty much automatic for me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 11 14:01:45 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:01:45 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA34F15.4000503@neurotica.com> References: <718603.30741.qm@web121609.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <529C054C-089D-4E2E-BD95-70AA1ECAEACE@bellsouth.net> <4DA34F15.4000503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <47F8BEE5-EA64-424A-BD84-625FA59FBFBE@bellsouth.net> I'm sure minicom isn't without it's warts. I came from the land of telix/procomm which are similar in operation to minicom (though obviously not the same). I have probably run Kermit on one occasion but I couldn't tell you for sure. Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/11/11 2:54 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> I've always used minicom. I wonder if this is a case of emacs vs vi. :) > > Probably. :) Minicom works well, but after having used Kermit (the program ;)) for two and a half decades, and having it be substantially the same and very predictable on every platform, it became pretty much automatic for me. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 11 14:04:07 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:04:07 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <92082.72523.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <92082.72523.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7B8CF219-0853-45E5-882F-EB53BE05529D@bellsouth.net> Lol. Well, that's something else I've gotten used to over the years since outlook pretty much defaults to top posting in replies. :) Sent from my iPhone On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > >> Ah so. I was mistaken about the use >> of the program vs protocol. Confusing! :) >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > > Almost as confusing as top posting! > > -Ian From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon Apr 11 14:19:55 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA30959.7070203@neurotica.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30959.7070203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > > The file transfer protocol, or the program? I use the program all the time > under OS X, usually to talk to network infrastructure hardware, mostly Cisco > routers and switches. I also use it to talk to embedded designs. I designed the protocol into an embedded design just a few months ago. Lets me move diagnostic programs and data onto an SD card in the device. 'Course, I didn't do snazzy features like sliding windows and enhanced checksums; don't need them for the occasional diagnostic data transfer. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 11 14:21:37 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:21:37 -0600 Subject: taxonomy of computer assemblages Message-ID: I'm prototyping my cataloging system for the Computer Graphics History Museum with CollectiveAccess. So far, so good. I've come across the need to extend one of their standard metadata profiles with data specific to my specific domain. This is a common situation. The kind folks at the Living Computer Museum recommended that I have a way of describing the various parts within a computer system: - systems assembled from racks - racks assembled from boards and hardware - boards assembled from chips - etc. However, I don't need to get bogged down into the details of each system with my metadata. I was thinking of trying to keep it simple and create a taxonomy consisting only of two categories: assembly and part. Assemblies are containers for parts and other assemblies. So, my 4-rack Onyx2 Reality Monster might be broken down into something like this: Id Assembly Name Contains Assembly Contains Part 1 System 2, 3, 4, 5 2 Rack 6, 7 3 Rack 4 Rack 5 Rack 6 CPU Rack Module 8, 9, 10, 11 7 Graphics Rack Module 12, 13, 14, 15 8 CPU Board 1, 2 9 CPU Board 10 CPU Board 11 CPU Board 12 Graphics Board 13 Graphics Board 14 Graphics Board 15 Graphics Board Id Part Name 1 CPU Module 2 CPU Module >From this simple example, I think you get the idea even if I haven't filled out a complete transitive closure of all the parts in this system. Ultimately, the goal is to be able to track the provenance of any particular part or assembly is it is moved and/or combined with other hardware in the collection in order to obtain working systems. This shouldn't be too hard with the current collection as I've hardly done anything to the systems in the collection in terms of modifications. However, as time progresses, this information will become more important. My question for the list is: do you think this simple taxonomy of recursive assemblies and parts is sufficient? I'd rather not create metadata for the sake of creating metadata in my catalog profile. It seems to me that the amount of maintenance work in a catalog is directly proportional to the amount of stuff you're trying to capture in the catalog. Your thoughts or comments are appreciated. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 11 14:24:20 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> from Geoff Oltmans at "Apr 11, 11 01:14:51 pm" Message-ID: <201104111924.p3BJOKeL017390@floodgap.com> > What, copying files off of obsolete machines? That's not what I was talking > about. How about a more modern application? Copying files off of modern machines? ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy. -- Samuel Butler ---------------- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 11 14:22:56 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 20:22:56 +0100 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <529C054C-089D-4E2E-BD95-70AA1ECAEACE@bellsouth.net> References: <718603.30741.qm@web121609.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <529C054C-089D-4E2E-BD95-70AA1ECAEACE@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA35510.5080207@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/04/2011 19:54, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > I've always used minicom. I wonder if this is a case of emacs vs vi. :) No. Kermit actually works :-) Seriously, it has more accurate VT100/ANSI characteristics than minicom, and is somewhat more versatile, plus it works (the same) on umpteen platforms. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 11 14:22:57 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 20:22:57 +0100 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA34799.4070506@neurotica.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> <4DA34799.4070506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA35511.7010705@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/04/2011 19:25, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/11/11 2:14 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> What, copying files off of obsolete machines? That's not what I was >> talking about. How about a more modern application? > > Talking to console ports, for one. Anyone who does any sort of real > networking work has to do that all the time. Ditto for nearly any > embedded systems work. These aren't exactly shrinking fields. Absolutely. Kermit has a particularly accurate VT100 emulation, and it's surprising how much modern equipment actually needs that. Also, it's particularly good at squirting data, or sucking down what the other end is doing. "show tech all" on some of our switches screws quite a lot of other comms software. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 11 14:27:48 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:27:48 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA35634.4010909@verizon.net> On 4/11/2011 8:46 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during > my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that > wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet > switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? > It was always an available choice back in the day for BBS's, compuserve, etc. Zmodem was the defacto standard for anyone looking for speed. I used it back in the day during the ummm, "network exploration" phase of my life. Since it was installed (by default?) on many different *ix platforms, you could always count on it being there. You could also transfer files across 7-bit only links. Perhaps dialup into an annex(haven't used this term in awhile), telnet into a local machine, and then telnet through two or three other machines, and still do kermit from my desktop to the host on the far side. Most (all?) of the other protocols would fail miserably. The reliability across slow serial connections (as others have mentioned) was a real life saver for the type of work I was doing. :) I used uuencode/decode and "cat >file" and ascii text upload (basically cut/paste) when nothing was installed. I have a funny story of calling Ward Christensen when I was about 12 years old. I had found his XMODEM g-file on a BBS some place, and was using it to implement XMODEM in the BBS software that I was writing at the time for the Commodore Amiga. I had understood the majority of it except for how the checksum functioned. I had called him, I think, at some university in Chicago and he initially berated me on the phone for asking a simple question that was already answered in the documentation. His tone later softened(however slightly) whenever he discovered my young age, and told me to ask my math teacher at school to explain "modulo." Keith From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 14:29:12 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110411122738.D80688@shell.lmi.net> > To be realistic here - > how much does Kermit really matter in today's IT > environment, other that to to people like us? To be realistic here - How much do people like us really matter in today's IT environment? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 14:32:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:32:56 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <7B8CF219-0853-45E5-882F-EB53BE05529D@bellsouth.net> References: <92082.72523.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7B8CF219-0853-45E5-882F-EB53BE05529D@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA35768.5090600@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 3:04 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Lol. Well, that's something else I've gotten used to over the years > since outlook pretty much defaults to top posting in replies. :) ...yet another reason why people refer to it as "LookOut!" -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 14:41:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:41:48 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110411122738.D80688@shell.lmi.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110411122738.D80688@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA3597C.3090406@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> To be realistic here - >> how much does Kermit really matter in today's IT >> environment, other that to to people like us? > > To be realistic here - > How much do people like us really matter in today's IT environment? Are you assuming that gainful employment in a technical field and involvement in classic computing preservation are somehow mutually exclusive? That's one of the more whacked-out arguments I've heard here. (and that's saying something!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 14:54:09 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:54:09 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA3597C.3090406@neurotica.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110411122738.D80688@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3597C.3090406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/11/11 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> To be realistic here - >> How much do people like us really matter in today's IT environment? > > ?Are you assuming that gainful employment in a technical field and > involvement in classic computing preservation are somehow mutually > exclusive? ?That's one of the more whacked-out arguments I've heard here. > ?(and that's saying something!) While one could interpret it that way, I took it to mean more of "our needs (and wants) are such a minority view that they aren't above the noise floor for consideration for how new products are designed or implemented." It's not that knowing what Kermit is and how to use it makes you unemployable, it's that nobody designing modern systems cares what Kermit users want (e.g. vanishing serial ports on modern hardware because a USB serial dongle works for "enough" people that it's the only option now). -ethan From dmabry at mich.com Mon Apr 11 14:56:04 2011 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:56:04 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net><4DA30289.8000001@m ich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4DA35CD4.50602@mich.com> Geoff Oltmans said the following on 4/11/2011 12:39 PM: > This doesn't strike me as a typical use case though. :) > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 11, 2011, at 8:30 AM, Dave Mabry wrote: > >> Geoff Oltmans said the following on 4/11/2011 8:46 AM: >>> Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> Well, yes, I still use it. I have occasionally needed to copy files from an 8" floppy either in ISIS-II or CP/M format to a PC for archive on optical media or to email to someone. The Intel MDS systems I have run Kermit nicely. And the standard Windows software has hyperterminal with kermit protocol. So Kermit makes it easy to transfer to/from dissimilar systems that can't be networked. >> >> Sure it's slow. But it's very stable and reliable. >> I would argue that it is exactly "typical" for what Kermit was designed. Dissimilar systems "talking" together. It is ideal for me. Typical for me. I guess it comes down to your definition of "typical." From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Apr 11 14:57:04 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:57:04 -0700 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 10:37 AM > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:00 PM, Ian King wrote: >> What's a "typical use case" for this group? :-) Yes, we use it too - >> I use it to get file images onto a PDP-8/e. -- Ian > Indeed. Kermit-12 is quite handy. We also use Kermit-10 on the 2065 to provide file transfer capabilities, since we do not have TCP/IP for Tops-10 (nor a Tops-10 driver for the Stanford MEIS[1] even if we did). > I myself use Kermit for DOS and a packet driver to get files to a 286 > to run an old EPROM/GAL burner that won't run on faster hardware. > Yes, I can use a newer device programmer, but this works just fine. > Other than that, I tend to use Kermit more often as a VT100 emulator > than a file-transfer application. In addition, I use Kermit 95 for *VT52* emulation (VT100 emulators are a dime a dozen, but try to find a VT52 emulator!) for connecting to the ITS system we're restoring.[2] [1] Massbus-Ethernet Interface Subsystem, the Ethernet interface for the KL-10 invented at Stanford and sold for a time by cisco Systems. [2] ITS does not handle VT100 natively. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 14:59:45 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 12:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA35768.5090600@neurotica.com> References: <92082.72523.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7B8CF219-0853-45E5-882F-EB53BE05529D@bellsouth.net> <4DA35768.5090600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110411125914.W80688@shell.lmi.net> > > Lol. Well, that's something else I've gotten used to over the years > > since outlook pretty much defaults to top posting in replies. :) > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...yet another reason why people refer to it as "LookOut!" "Outhouse" From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 15:01:56 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA3597C.3090406@neurotica.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110411122738.D80688@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3597C.3090406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110411130034.C80688@shell.lmi.net> > >> To be realistic here - > >> how much does Kermit really matter in today's IT > >> environment, other that to to people like us? > > To be realistic here - > > How much do people like us really matter in today's IT environment? On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Are you assuming that gainful employment in a technical field and > involvement in classic computing preservation are somehow mutually > exclusive? That's one of the more whacked-out arguments I've heard > here. (and that's saying something!) Certainly not mutually exclusive, but, often it seems as though everybody except us at least considers them to be orthogonal. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 15:02:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:02:23 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110411125914.W80688@shell.lmi.net> References: <92082.72523.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7B8CF219-0853-45E5-882F-EB53BE05529D@bellsouth.net> <4DA35768.5090600@neurotica.com> <20110411125914.W80688@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA35E4F.5010402@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Lol. Well, that's something else I've gotten used to over the years >>> since outlook pretty much defaults to top posting in replies. :) >> > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ...yet another reason why people refer to it as "LookOut!" > > "Outhouse" *snicker* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Apr 11 15:08:13 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:08:13 -0700 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: [EBADFORM: Follow-up to own post.] From: Rich Alderson Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 12:57 PM > We also use Kermit-10 on the 2065 to provide file transfer > capabilities, since we do not have TCP/IP for Tops-10 (nor > a Tops-10 driver for the Stanford MEIS[1] even if we did). I forgot to mention: When we were ready to put the 2065 on the 'Net back in 2005, I discovered a bug in Kermit-10, which had been partially patched in the Macro-10 output of the Bliss-10 compiler[1] but never really fixed. I got in touch with my long-time net.acquaintance Frank, who in turn put me in touch with the original author of Kermit-10. The latter gentleman was tickled to log in on the 2065 and repair the program properly! Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From doc at vaxen.net Mon Apr 11 15:12:55 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:12:55 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110411125914.W80688@shell.lmi.net> References: <92082.72523.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <7B8CF219-0853-45E5-882F-EB53BE05529D@bellsouth.net> <4DA35768.5090600@neurotica.com> <20110411125914.W80688@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA360C7.6000509@vaxen.net> On 4/11/11 2:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Lol. Well, that's something else I've gotten used to over the years >>> since outlook pretty much defaults to top posting in replies. :) >> > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ...yet another reason why people refer to it as "LookOut!" > > "Outhouse" And its "lite-version" software, "Outhouse Distress" Doc From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 11 15:17:06 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:17:06 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 References: Message-ID: <3E4DED28E36D4AFDACF835548FF55F76@vl420mt> Some folks on here are easily confused, especially by top posting... m ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:04:07 -0500 > From: Geoff Oltmans > Subject: Re: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 > years (fwd) > > Lol. Well, that's something else I've gotten used to over the years since > outlook pretty much defaults to top posting in replies. :) > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 11, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Geoff Oltmans wrote: >> >>> Ah so. I was mistaken about the use >>> of the program vs protocol. Confusing! :) >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >> >> Almost as confusing as top posting! >> >> -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 15:23:26 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:23:26 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks >> Indeed. ?Kermit-12 is quite handy. > > We also use Kermit-10 on the 2065 to provide file transfer capabilities, > since we do not have TCP/IP for Tops-10 (nor a Tops-10 driver for the > Stanford MEIS[1] even if we did). Another edge-case where there are few alternatives. >> Other than that, I tend to use Kermit more often as a VT100 emulator >> than a file-transfer application. > > In addition, I use Kermit 95 for *VT52* emulation (VT100 emulators are > a dime a dozen, but try to find a VT52 emulator!) for connecting to the > ITS system we're restoring.[2] A *good* VT100 emulator should do VT52 emulation (it's fully described in the relevant documentation). The problem is that there are few *good* VT100 emulators. As I've mentioned on the list before, my threshold for VT52 emulation is successfully running the VTEDIT Macro on the OS/8 version of TECO (it works perfectly on a real VT52). Besides 'vttest', my threshold for VT100 emulation is successfully running emacs on TOPS-20 (I had some issues a few years back with almost-emulation that vanished when I used a real terminal to drive sessions on the "Panda" distro of klh10+TOPS-20 - I don't recall why I couldn't/didn't use Kermit, but it probably has to do with being in a sunless place for months at a time). -ethan From spc at conman.org Mon Apr 11 15:42:59 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:42:59 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20110411204259.GF21737@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Michael Kerpan once stated: > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my > > bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't > > exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched > > networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? > > As far as I can tell, Kermit was initially intended for use over > serial links. A lot of its poor performance (which wasn't actually so > bad over a decent link to a big iron system) comes from the fact that > it places data integrity over speed in its priority list. While this > was considered a bad thing in the world of BBSes, where slow links > meant that every last bit per second was valuable, for faster local or > leased line serial links there was no issue. Additionally, the focus > on data integrity means that Kermit can be very useful over marginal > lines such as third world telephone lines or ham radio modems. Back in college I used Kermit all the time. The dialups to the University were not 8-bit clean, and the procedure one used to make the path between the modem and the target system [1] didn't always worked (at least, in my case I could never get an 8-bit clean path) so often times the *only* file transfer protocol that would work was Kermit. -spc (And at 300, speed wasn't really much of an issue ... 8-) [1] The university modems were hooked into a terminal server made by DEC and run by the internal university IT department. To get to the Unix servers in the CS department, I had to connect to an intermediate system (which meant we had to have yet another account), *then* log into the Unix system [2]. Making sure the entire path: modem -> terminal server -> DEC system? -> Unix was 8-bit clean annoying. [2] Getting to the University Library computer system was even more fun; I recall about three or four intermediate systems you had to go through, one of which never gave a prompt and you had to type blindly, go down a flight of stairs that didn't exist in the dark, and check the filing cabinet in an unsused bathroom marked with a "Beware of the Leopard" sign. Fun times [3] [3] Not really. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 11 15:51:01 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 08:51:01 +1200 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net><4DA30289.8000001@mich.com><3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <7FCE29D43F744B58B26B69EE405B9DDC@massey.ac.nz> I've used Kermit to transfer CP/M software from the Walnut Creek CD-ROM on my Windows XP machine (via Hyperterminal I think) to my Kaypro II. I know there are other ways to do it but if I just wanted the odd file, it was very convenient. Terry (Tez) >> What's a "typical use case" for this group? :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 16:06:31 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110411122738.D80688@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3597C.3090406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> > > On 4/11/11 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> To be realistic here - > >> How much do people like us really matter in today's IT environment? > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?Are you assuming that gainful employment in a technical field and > > involvement in classic computing preservation are somehow mutually > > exclusive? ?That's one of the more whacked-out arguments I've heard here. > > ?(and that's saying something!) Thank you! On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > While one could interpret it that way, I took it to mean more of "our > needs (and wants) are such a minority view that they aren't above the > noise floor for consideration for how new products are designed or > implemented." Thank you for clarifying what I was saying. To a lesser extent, many "modern" employers would prefer to avoid hiring people like us. Well, at least those of us, such as myself and Tony, who are vocal about the existence of downsides to current "progress". > It's not that knowing what Kermit is and how to use it makes you > unemployable, it's that nobody designing modern systems cares what > Kermit users want (e.g. vanishing serial ports on modern hardware > because a USB serial dongle works for "enough" people that it's the > only option now). "Nobody needs more than two floppy ports" "Nobody need more than one floppy port" "Nobody needs a floppy port" "Nobody needs incandescents" "Nobody needs a parallel port" "Nobody needs RS232" "Nobody needs SCSI" "Nobody needs a command line" "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, nor ever will again." -(Clancy and Harvey, UC Berkeley Lower Division CS) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 11 16:29:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:29:48 -0700 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2011 at 14:06, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, > nor ever will again." -(Clancy and Harvey, UC Berkeley Lower Division > CS) ...and sadly, nobody knows how a computer works, nor cares. I suppose it was inevitable. --Chuck From elazzerini at interfree.it Mon Apr 11 12:15:00 2011 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 19:15:00 +0200 Subject: Ferguson BigBoard I & Microcornucopia Magazine Message-ID: <004f01cbf86c$03a20fa0$0ae62ee0$@it> Hi at all, this mine to remember my website with the hope to can to contact and to maintain alive all possible about and around this great old board. http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini http://www.fergusonbigboard.altervista.org/ Regards Enrico - Pisa (ITALY) From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Mon Apr 11 13:13:50 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 19:13:50 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) Message-ID: <01O00114FWQQ000LNX@beyondthepale.ie> > > What's a "typical use case" for this group? ?:-) ?Yes, we use it too - I use it to get file images onto a PDP-8/e. ?-- Ian > Perhaps there are more atypical than typical uses? I use it to move files between my BBC micro kit and my VMS machines. I also have Kermit for MUSIC running under Hercules but I don't have any way of using it for file transfer at the moment. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 15:10:41 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <58830.79643.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 4/9/11, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > why not just buy a mini pc for $100-$300 and run the > emulation software yourself? nooooo. Get a pentium based sbc and jam it in an old 64's case. or a c16. It's said if you go black, you never go back... > oh, yeah it wouldn't look like a c64? ok, paint it. yep paint it black. black as night black as coal. aamof I see a red door calling my name... > anyone who buys one of these is a moron ;) o man I'm w/you on this one. Especially at 250-900$. I first 64 I bought was 100$. Had to go to Penn Station, down in the basement, to get that price though. I distinctly remember pulling down the road as my parents were leaving. They saw me coddling the thing in my arms like a baby, and rolled their eyes. I just bought my first pc compat around a week earlier. From tingox at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 15:17:54 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:17:54 +0200 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't > exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? Well, I recently resurrected an old ND-Satellite/9 minicomputer from Norsk Data. The machine doesn't have any network interfaces, except for terminal (serial) ports. However, it did have kermit on one of the 8 inch floppies that I got with the machine. I still use kermit to transfer files to and from that machine. Very handy. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 15:18:54 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <20110409172000.G14748@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <302935.84939.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 4/9/11, Fred Cisin wrote: > wrote: > > I'd rather have the Chameleon. Neat, and isn't > vapourware. > > When the Chameleon 325 (perhaps the only machine to ever > use 3.25" drives > (that Dysan bet the companyt on)) was announced, it WAS > vaporware for a > while, as exposed by Infoworld?.? (Being made in > Bawlmer (Baltimore), it > was "vaporware", not "vapourware") didn't at least one Amstrad machine use 3.25" drives? What's a Chameleon? You guys are making me think of the Mimic or something... From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 15:43:46 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <659731.48451.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Liam Proven wrote: > > Already straying offtopic, a book I own states that > Delphi could be used to write Visual Basic, but not the > other way around. > > Neither way, AFAIK. Delphi=updated Borland Object Pascal, > not a BASIC. I'm not saying compile basic code with. The authors stated that Delphi was a full fledged developmental tool that could create the visual basic compiler from the ground up. VB was "something less". Nowhere near as fast, amongst other things, as Delphi. At one time, about 10 years ago, the fastest compiler out there I think. > > I'll assume Quick C could be used to write Quick > Basic, but what about the other way around? > > Again, neither, AFAIK. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 15:51:10 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Quick C had become popular w/developers (not for > primary use) long after M$ canned it. Not sure why, maybe > they just liked the IDE. And liked using it for quick and > dirty tasks. > > > Eh?? I've NEVER seen Quick C in "mainstream" > use.? You sure you're not thinking of Turbo C? I never said mainstream use. Nevertheless I know of at least 2 full time developers that like to use if for, I'll repeat, quick and dirty tasks. I think I even saw a mention in C User's Journal while it was commonly available. > Neither way, AFAIK. Delphi=updated Borland Object > Pascal, not a BASIC. oi vay. See last post. > >> I'll assume Quick C could be used to write Quick > Basic, but what about the other way around? > > > Quick C and QB were _completely_ different product lines > and languages. Is this so hard to grasp? Could you write a compiler "on the level" of Quick Basic w/QC? That's what I'm asking. I'll wager some type of C compiler was used to write most of what's out there. In the case of Quick Basic, possibly even a M$ product. Could it have been done w/QC? Perhaps I threw some people off when I started out mentioning Pascal, it having it's own way of storing data. May not be the first choice when endeavoring to write a compiler (though even at least early versions of Turbo C used pascal conventions), but were any of these tools up to the task? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 16:50:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <7FCE29D43F744B58B26B69EE405B9DDC@massey.ac.nz> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net><4DA30289.8000001@mich.com><3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <7FCE29D43F744B58B26B69EE405B9DDC@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <20110411142234.B84642@shell.lmi.net> I didn't see mentioned, . . . "Back in the day", . . . (heavily exaggerated to clarify the difference) Non-academics tended to use Modem7, X-Modem and its variants. Most knew about kermit, but rarely used it. ("It's probably fine for 7-bit, but it breaks every 8-bit byte into TWO bytes", "EVERYBODY uses ABCDEFG-MODEM.", etc.) Academics tended to use Kermit, and sometimes even feigned lack of knowledge of the existence of the Christensen protocols. ("If it wasn't developed by a major university, how can I be sure that it really works?", "EVERYBODY uses Kermit.", "Kermit is on every machine that has ever existed.", etc.) While far from a definitive correlation, it was often possible to draw conclusions about somebody's background based on those views. On an only slightly related "EVERYBODY does/doesn't", which groups used ANSI.SYS on PCs? "EVERYBODY had a 'doubler'" "Hardly anyone had a 'doubler', because they already had data separators and 8" adapters" "EVERYBODY in xxxxxxxxxxxx field uses Macintoshes ONLY" "NOBODY uses TRS80 when there is ANY alternative" (re: Model16) "Why would anybody produce 8080 code, EVERYBODY has a Z80." "S100 might catch on, if it gets standardized" "BASIC?? NOBODY would use BASIC for ANYTHING!" "'Proprietary programming system'? WHICH BASIC compiler?" "I won't use WORDSTAR, it turned all of my files into ASCII!" "VI!" "Emacs would be a nice operating system, if it had a decent editor." The preceding has been exaggerated for your amusement. . . . From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 11 16:56:05 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:56:05 -0700 Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <302935.84939.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <20110409172000.G14748@shell.lmi.net>, <302935.84939.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DA31685.1120.14D6444@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2011 at 13:18, Chris M wrote: > didn't at least one Amstrad machine use 3.25" drives? No, those were 3.0" drives. > What's a Chameleon? You guys are making me think of the Mimic or > something... Do the name "Seequa" mean anything to ya? :) --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 17:00:16 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 18:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 04/09/2011 04:43 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> First a question for other Lisa owners: >> >> Could an error 10707 result from attempting to startup Lisa Office >> from a ProFile that was configured while attached to a different >> machine? I believe there's some sort of node-locking that occurs >> during installation, but I'm not sure what the symptoms of a mismatch >> might be. > > http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-sw-los_error_codes.html > > 10707 Cannot initialize the File System volume > > So doesn't look like it can see the drive, or the file system is messed up? > > If you move the ProFile to another Lisa, it should start up, but the > tools LisaWrite, etc. won't work. > > I've seen this kind of thing when I had a Profile on a parallel port > card, and moved it to the motherboard parallel port or vice versa, > though with a different error code. Not sure that would help anything, > but if you did something like that, might be worth moving it to the same > slot and port. (Yes, it does care about which expansion slot # the card > is in.) > > Baring that, the file system could just be toast and you'd need to run > scavenge or reinstall it. I wish I could re-install... Per some of my other postings, neither LisaTest nor Lisa Office install seem to think there's a workable drive attached! The same drive(s) (I've tried three so far) pass format and diagnostics on an Apple III. I've also been able to successfully install MacWorksXL on all three using the same Lisa. There must be something that Lisa OS / LisaTest does that is not involved in MacWorks / MacOS use of the drive. Darned if I know what. I'll keep looking for the obvious anyway (bad connections). Already tried two or three different cables to connect the drive to the system. Steve -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 17:03:35 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <302935.84939.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <302935.84939.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110411145211.R84642@shell.lmi.net> > When the Chameleon 325 (perhaps the only machine to ever use 3.25" > drives (that Dysan bet the companyt on)) was announced, it WAS vaporware > for a while, as exposed by Infoworld?.? (Being made in Bawlmer > (Baltimore), it was "vaporware", not "vapourware") On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Chris M wrote: > didn't at least one Amstrad machine use 3.25" drives? I've seen Amstrads with 3" drives. I've seen Amstrads with 3.5" drives. I have NEVER seen an Amstrad with 3.25" drives. BUT, 3.25" drives were available with a very ordinary "SA400" interface, so it was trivial to install them into anything using "industry standard" drives. (Watch out for the polarity on the power connector adapter!) Most of my 3.25" drives, disks, alignment disks, etc. came from Micropro, after they changed their name to Wordsatr, Inc., embraced Windoze, and started to circle the drain. They had, of course, heeded Dysan's advice about "the next big format change", or at least taken advantage of Dysan based subsidies. There were many arguments about "Shirt pocket Diskette" standard. George Morrow declared that the real answer lay in cutting a deal with the garment industry to control the size of shirt pockets. > What's a Chameleon? You guys are making me think of the Mimic or > something... Don't know. Sorry. The ChameleonS that I saw were pretty generic CP/M luggables. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 11 17:04:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:04:40 -0700 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: , <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DA31888.11045.1553F40@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2011 at 13:51, Chris M wrote: > Is this so hard to grasp? Could you write a compiler "on the level" > of Quick Basic w/QC? That's what I'm asking. I'll wager some type of > C compiler was used to write most of what's out there. In the case of > Quick Basic, possibly even a M$ product. Could it have been done > w/QC? Perhaps I threw some people off when I started out mentioning > Pascal, it having it's own way of storing data. May not be the first > choice when endeavoring to write a compiler (though even at least > early versions of Turbo C used pascal conventions), but were any of > these tools up to the task? Compilers are easy--it's the run-time that's the bugger. But yeah, you could probably do both in Quick C. I recall when M$ packed as a freebie with their C compiler, but I didn't bother to use it--and this may also be the reason that it didn't catch on generally. I preferred a more formal development style. Edit, compile, run, lather, rinse, repeat. Lots of different source files. The time saved by using QuickC didn't amount to a hill of beans in the overall picture. I find that the more sophisticated and "helpful"the IDE, the more it tends to disturb my thought processes. But then, I'm old. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 11 17:06:00 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 23:06:00 +0100 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110411122738.D80688@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3597C.3090406@neurotica.com> <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA37B48.80502@philpem.me.uk> On 11/04/11 22:06, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, > nor ever will again." -(Clancy and Harvey, UC Berkeley Lower Division CS) To which I would respond: "Alright. Bring up a brand-new embedded CPU board without writing a single line of assembler." You can't do squat in C without initialising the segments (TEXT and BSS) and setting up the stack pointer. At best you'll get a coredump, triple-fault or Abort (data or instruction-fetch, take your pick). At worst you get the CPU writing crap all over the rootfs, NVM, bootflash and whatever else it can lay its grubby paws on. On the list of things that aren't a good idea, "attempting to write CINIT / crt0 in C" is way, way up there. Of course, if you're an apps developer, then the aforementioned statement is entirely true. I tried to write a Win32 app in ASM, and it nearly drove me mad. (Although some would argue on the "nearly" part of that sentence...!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Apr 11 17:08:47 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:08:47 -0700 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110411142234.B84642@shell.lmi.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net><4DA30289.8000001@mich.com><3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <7FCE29D43F744B58B26B69EE405B9DDC@massey.ac.nz> <20110411142234.B84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 2:51 PM > Non-academics tended to use Modem7, X-Modem and its variants. [snip] > Academics tended to use Kermit, and sometimes even feigned lack > of knowledge of the existence of the Christensen protocols. [snip] > While far from a definitive correlation, it was often possible > to draw conclusions about somebody's background based on those > views. I find this amusing only because MODEM originated at Yale, AFAIR. At least, that's where I encountered it, several years before Kermit existed. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 17:16:56 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 23:16:56 +0100 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <659731.48451.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <659731.48451.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11 April 2011 21:43, Chris M wrote: > --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Liam Proven wrote: > >> > Already straying offtopic, a book I own states that >> Delphi could be used to write Visual Basic, but not the >> other way around. >> >> Neither way, AFAIK. Delphi=updated Borland Object Pascal, >> not a BASIC. > > ?I'm not saying compile basic code with. The authors stated that Delphi was a full fledged developmental tool that could create the visual basic compiler from the ground up. VB was "something less". Nowhere near as fast, amongst other things, as Delphi. At one time, about 10 years ago, the fastest compiler out there I think. OIC! Right, sorry. I think your wording was a bit ambiguous, though. I think someone else has already said all I know - that, IIRC, you could write extensions for VB in Delphi, whereas you could not in VB itself. Yes, I think Delphi is a full-blown, proper, compiled language and in principle you could write anything in it. I vaguely recall maybe hearing about compiler projects and even OS projects attempted in it. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 11 17:36:48 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mockups? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Henk Gooijen wrote: > As addendum to what Vince wrote. > If you go to www.pdp-11.nl , use the navigation at the left side and check > out > "PDP-11/70 console" in the "my projects" folder. > I should make more pictures. You can see the floppy disk at the right side. > At the left side is the CD-ROM drive. Serial and parallel port is on the rear > side, and still to make a panel will be the USB and ethernet RJ45 socket. > It boots RT-11, RSX and RSTS. I have an image for Ultrix but never took > the time to get that one started ... so many things to do, soooo little time! I would very much like to replicate this project. I just gotta snag a front panel. How about some measurements/dimensions for your chassis? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 17:37:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 18:37:51 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 5:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, >> nor ever will again." -(Clancy and Harvey, UC Berkeley Lower Division >> CS) > > ...and sadly, nobody knows how a computer works, nor cares. You do, I do, lots of people here do. There are some fields in which that knowledge is still a requirement. For the rest, we'll just have to keep teaching people. > I suppose it was inevitable. Well, if you're a defeatist, yes. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 17:45:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net><4DA30289.8000001@mich.com><3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <7FCE29D43F744B58B26B69EE405B9DDC@massey.ac.nz> <20110411142234.B84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110411153839.C84642@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > I find this amusing only because MODEM originated at Yale, AFAIR. > At least, that's where I encountered it, several years before > Kermit existed. I am far from an authority on the history nor variants. Virtually none of my information on it is first hand. I was under the impression that the whole family was based on Ward Christensen's MODEM.ASM from 1977?, and that he has been working at IBM (NOT on microcomputer file transfer!) since about 1968? (Is he STILL there??) Could you elaborate on Yale's role? (Or did they simply buck the "Not Invented In Academia" tendency?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 18:01:59 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110411154721.N84642@shell.lmi.net> > >> "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, > >> nor ever will again." -(Clancy and Harvey, UC Berkeley Lower Division > >> CS) > > ...and sadly, nobody knows how a computer works, nor cares. On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > You do, I do, lots of people here do. There are some fields in which > that knowledge is still a requirement. For the rest, we'll just have to > keep teaching people. > > I suppose it was inevitable. > Well, if you're a defeatist, yes. ;) I don't think that I can remember ANYTHING else as offensive as Clancy and Harvey's remarks. There were a few other remarks worthy of note in the same presentation, including their assertion that recursion was the only possible way to scan a multi-dimensional array, that SCHEME (a LISP variant) was the only language in which that particular problem example COULD BE solved, and their LIE that the UC Berkeley catalog had been rewritten "about 5 years ago" to reflect their "new" model of lower division CS. (when confronted with the current catalog, they asserted that it was a "throwback glitch"; they ceased responding when I presented copies of the previous 5 years of catalogs.) They took long enough to type in their code of their SCHEME "only possible language" solution for me to write C, FORTRAN, BASIC, and half of the PROCEDURE DIVISION of COBOL. C'mon guys, scanning all elements of a multi-dimensional array is NOT more than trivial. I guess that recursion is another "EVERYBODY DOES/DOESN'T" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 18:30:28 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110411162204.W84642@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/11/11 5:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, > >> nor ever will again." -(Clancy and Harvey, UC Berkeley Lower Division > >> CS) > > > > ...and sadly, nobody knows how a computer works, nor cares. BTW, I have yet to receive Chuck's post! It sounds somewhat cynical. (like me) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 11 18:36:18 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 19:36:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > >On 4/11/11 7:31 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> SIMH also does the same thing, although I have a problem with the screen >> display since SIMH does not have built-in emulation for the VT100 (or at >> least the last time I used SIMH, it did not). > > Urr? This is not the responsibility of a processor emulator. At > least it isn't on any sane platform. I agree. You are correct. On the other hand, I will continue to use Ersatz-11 mostly because it supports VT100 emulation. In addition, at one point, SIMH (around V2.9-11 if I remember correctly) did support almost all of the keys on the application keypad except the PF1 (GOLD) key. And SIMH must support at least the keys if RSTS/E V10.1 runs correctly when I use the command stack to test an RT-11 program under the RT-11 RTS in RSTS/E. > SIMH (the PDP-11 part of it) spits the characters out to its > controlling terminal as it receives them from the emulated PDP-11's > console (addr 777566) serial port. As all common CLI access programs > (xterm/gnome-terminal/etc under most Unices including OS X, > additionally Terminal.app and iTerm.app under OS X) all speak ANSI by > default, you get the correct behavior even on the console. I don't know if the ability of the VT100 to switch character sets for the Application Keypad is part of ANSI support. Please clarify. One other point. While RT-11 must have a console, it need not be at address 777566. The console can also be a DZ or a DH device. The only common aspect may be ANSI for a VT100 or the VT52 protocol in the case of that terminal. Also see below regarding the use of the SL: under all RT-11 consoles (includes an RT-11 monitor which supports multi-terminal features which includes DL, DZ and DH hardware). By the way, I have not actually tested it, but I think that Ersatz-11 also supports the VT52 Application Keypad - which, of course, is definitely not ANSI. > And the only PDP-11 OS in which one is essentially *required* to use > the console all the time is RT-11, which is the least-capable of all > of the various PDP-11 OSs anyway, perhaps excluding some very early > stuff like CAPS-11 and DOS-11. Actually, in order to run RT-11, typing commands from the console does NOT require anything other than normal characters. The ONLY reason that RT-11 uses (as opposed to NEEDS) the special characters of the Application Keypad and the ARROW keys is to run SL: (Single Line Editor - similar in many aspects to DOSKEY). Since it probably takes me almost an hour to slowly type my response in just this one case, I find that the ability to use at least a command stack (such as RSTS/E in V10.1 and RT-11 starting around V5.03) makes program development so much faster that I only use SIMH when absolutely necessary. So just because RT-11 is "*required* to use the console all the time" is NOT essential to support the VT100 ability to switch the Application Keypad keys to support the SL: in RT-11. Such support is only for fellows like me who can't touch type at an acceptable speed. > (I'm not knocking either Ersatz-11 or RT-11, because I love 'em both, > but just injecting a little reality here) Understood. Again I agree. But I am curious, why has SIMH dropped what little support it did have for the Application Keypad on the VT100? Also, why has some eager beaver not stepped up to the plate and developed an option for SIMH to provide that support for RT-11 fellows like myself? If Ersatz-11 can support the PF1, PF2, PF3 and PF4 keys, I really don't understand why SIMH can't do the same. In fact, Ersatz-11 supports the ability to DEFINE any key, so that might be part of the answer. Ersatz-11 also supports multiple consoles. It is likely that John Wilson thought about what features a commercial version of Ersatz-11 would require. I notice that I use those multiple consoles under RSTS/E as well as TSX-Plus. So those extra features are not limited to be used by just RT-11. Probably the extra features can be used by RSX-11, but I don't have a bootable copy available to run. Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 18:36:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 16:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> > >> Quick C had become popular w/developers (not for primary use) long > >> after M$ canned it. Not sure why, maybe they just liked the IDE. And > >> liked using it for quick and dirty tasks. On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > Eh? I've NEVER seen Quick C in "mainstream" use. You sure you're not > thinking of Turbo C? I used early Quick C and TurboC interchangeably for quick and dirty tasks (NOT for retail products). I settled on TurboC for teaching beginning C classes when Borland started making free download available. But, I also REQUIRED each student to write at least one homework assignment using a command line compiler (I recommended GCC and DeSmet "PersonalC") > Quick C and QB were _completely_ different product lines and languages. What was the relationship to "EDIT" in MS-DOS? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 18:37:22 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 18:37:22 -0500 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4DA390B2.3080109@gmail.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> I've seen this kind of thing when I had a Profile on a parallel port >> card, and moved it to the motherboard parallel port or vice versa, >> though with a different error code. Not sure that would help anything, >> but if you did something like that, might be worth moving it to the same >> slot and port. (Yes, it does care about which expansion slot # the card >> is in.) >> >> Baring that, the file system could just be toast and you'd need to run >> scavenge or reinstall it. > > I wish I could re-install... Per some of my other postings, neither > LisaTest nor Lisa Office install seem to think there's a workable drive > attached! The same drive(s) (I've tried three so far) pass format and > diagnostics on an Apple III. I've also been able to successfully > install MacWorksXL on all three using the same Lisa. > > There must be something that Lisa OS / LisaTest does that is not > involved in MacWorks / MacOS use of the drive. Darned if I know what. To what extent is it possible to configure the drive interfaces in a Lisa? I know nothing about them, but I do remember having to putz around with Profile driver board config on the Apple /// whenever I moved things around. Ray's point seems a good one; is it possible that there's nothing wrong with the Profile or cables, and it's just that the software is looking in the wrong place for the hardware? cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 19:41:51 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:41:51 +0100 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12 April 2011 00:36, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Quick C and QB were _completely_ different product lines and languages. > > What was the relationship to "EDIT" in MS-DOS? That's a good question. The EDIT command came in in MS-DOS 5.0 and persisted into MS-DOS 6, 6.2, 6.21 and 6.22. It was a CUA full-screen text editor and remains a personal favourite of mine. I *really* miss having an equivalent at the Linux console - for me, it is far far preferable to vi, pico, nano, joe or any of the other common Linux console editors. (EMACS? Don't talk to me about EMACS.) EDIT.EXE is a stub which calls QBASIC.EXE in a special mode. QBASIC, which also came in with MS-DOS 5, is basically the IDE of QuickBASIC 4.5, but with the compiler, linker and all the related functionality removed - no tracepoints, no variable WATCH functions, etc. - and replaced with an updated version of the old GWBASIC interpreter. Help and so on all remains. In EDIT.EXE mode, all the BASIC handling is hidden, so it appears to be just a plain-text editor. Multi-file, windowing or tiled display, CUA compliant, mouse or keyboard driven, full context-sensitive help, etc. If you remove QBASIC.EXE and QBASIC.HLP, then EDIT no longer functions. The stub EXE itself doesn't contain any editing code: it basically just calls QBASIC.EXE with the /edit command-line switch, passing any file names across too. It's a very nice handy bit of code, actually. A fairly decent BASIC interpreter and a decent editor coupled together and given away for free. I used it a lot for quick scripts and things and still miss it today. As of MS-DOS 7 - the version embedded in Windows 95 and above - QBASIC is gone and EDIT.EXE is a full-blown editor in its own right. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Apr 11 19:47:40 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:47:40 +1200 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA390B2.3080109@gmail.com> Message-ID: <186392FF784346398439CD532E3C7F12@massey.ac.nz> Steve, One thought. Do you have a ProFile with a copy of Lisa Office on it already, that you can plug in and see if it boots? Even though you won't be able to open documents due the security matching, it still should boot. It just might be a way of further reducing down the possibilities. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 11:37 AM Subject: Re: Status of Lisa bringup > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Ray Arachelian wrote: >>> I've seen this kind of thing when I had a Profile on a parallel port >>> card, and moved it to the motherboard parallel port or vice versa, >>> though with a different error code. Not sure that would help anything, >>> but if you did something like that, might be worth moving it to the same >>> slot and port. (Yes, it does care about which expansion slot # the card >>> is in.) >>> >>> Baring that, the file system could just be toast and you'd need to run >>> scavenge or reinstall it. >> >> I wish I could re-install... Per some of my other postings, neither >> LisaTest nor Lisa Office install seem to think there's a workable drive >> attached! The same drive(s) (I've tried three so far) pass format and >> diagnostics on an Apple III. I've also been able to successfully install >> MacWorksXL on all three using the same Lisa. >> >> There must be something that Lisa OS / LisaTest does that is not involved >> in MacWorks / MacOS use of the drive. Darned if I know what. > > To what extent is it possible to configure the drive interfaces in a Lisa? > I know nothing about them, but I do remember having to putz around with > Profile driver board config on the Apple /// whenever I moved things > around. > > Ray's point seems a good one; is it possible that there's nothing wrong > with the Profile or cables, and it's just that the software is looking in > the wrong place for the hardware? > > cheers > > Jules > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 19:59:43 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:59:43 +0100 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12 April 2011 01:41, Liam Proven wrote: Some stuff I wrote off the top of my head is, on further checking, inaccurate. > The EDIT command came in in MS-DOS 5.0 and persisted into MS-DOS 6, > 6.2, 6.21 and 6.22. ... and 7.0 (Win95) and 7.1 (Win98/ME) and some versions of NT. > EDIT.EXE is a stub which calls QBASIC.EXE in a special mode. Only true in the versions which came as part of standalone MS-DOS, not after DOS 7. > In EDIT.EXE mode, all the BASIC handling is hidden, so it appears to > be just a plain-text editor. Multi-file, windowing or tiled display, > CUA compliant, mouse or keyboard driven, full context-sensitive help, > etc. It's only multi-file capable in the MS-DOS 7 version. Something I didn't know, though, is that it can edit files of up to 65K lines - about 5MB - *way* bigger than the original Windows 9x Notepad's 64K. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 20:40:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:40:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 7:36 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> SIMH also does the same thing, although I have a problem with the screen >>> display since SIMH does not have built-in emulation for the VT100 (or at >>> least the last time I used SIMH, it did not). >> >> Urr? This is not the responsibility of a processor emulator. At least >> it isn't on any sane platform. .... >> SIMH (the PDP-11 part of it) spits the characters out to its >> controlling terminal as it receives them from the emulated PDP-11's >> console (addr 777566) serial port. As all common CLI access programs >> (xterm/gnome-terminal/etc under most Unices including OS X, >> additionally Terminal.app and iTerm.app under OS X) all speak ANSI by >> default, you get the correct behavior even on the console. > > I don't know if the ability of the VT100 to switch character sets for the > Application Keypad is part of ANSI support. Please clarify. ... > Understood. Again I agree. But I am curious, why has SIMH dropped > what little support it did have for the Application Keypad on the VT100? > > Also, why has some eager beaver not stepped up to the plate and developed > an option for SIMH to provide that support for RT-11 fellows like myself? We're talking about very different things. I will try to explain what I mean. SIMH doesn't "support" specific keys or specific terminal emulations at all, because that's outside its scope. It's very much like saying a PDP-11/23 (for example) "supports" a VT100, or a PDP-11/23 supports PF keys, or some other terminal function. It doesn't...it has serial ports, and the OS (as you know) squirts bytes in and out of those serial ports, and what the terminal or the OS (or the app software for that matter) has nothing to do with the fact that the computer is, in this example, a PDP-11/23. A PDP-11/23 "has support for" a VT100's PF keys if a VT100 terminal (or a clone) is plugged into it. In exactly this same way, SIMH "has support for" PF keys if a VT100 terminal is "plugged into" it. Say I start a terminal program like "gnome-terminal", which is a common terminal program on Linux and Solaris machines. In that terminal window, I get a shell prompt. I start SIMH, which creates a virtual PDP-11 whose default console port (777566) is logically "connected to" a terminal...not a hardware VT100, but the instance of the "gnome-terminal" program. It speaks ANSI codes and mostly implements a VT100, so [2J will clear the screen, [H homes the cursor, etc. All of these functions are completely outside the scope of SIMH. If, say, I boot RSTS/E on that virtual PDP-11, do SET TERM/DEV=VT100", and I fire up EDT, then tell EDT to "SET MODE CHANGE", the first thing that happens (more or less) is that EDT sends [2J to clear the screen. SIMH never sees this...or, more correctly, it sees those four bytes written to 777566, and squirts them through the emulated serial port untouched. At that point, they are no longer the responsibility of SIMH. It's up to the "terminal" that is "connected" to this virtual PDP-11 to understand what those bytes mean and what to do with them. If I had started SIMH under a terminal program that only understands the control codes of, say, an LSI ADM-3A, that EDT session would look like gibberish. In this way, I can start SIMH under any sort of terminal (iTerm under OS X has wonderful full-VT-keypad emulation) and have things work the way I want them to, for any desired configuration. I can even start it under a pseudo-terminal that has no display, but watches for patterns sent from SIMH and sends responses accordingly, as if they'd been typed by a human. (an "expect" script, for anyone into such things) What you are (or seem to be) talking about is starting a PDP-11 emulator that somehow opens its own window, thus creating a virtual terminal of sorts, and that terminal is responsible for interpreting the control codes, and handling key events and translating them to the appropriate bytes to send to the emulated PDP-11's emulated serial port. This is certainly a reasonable setup, but it locks you into one specific configuration that may or may not be what you want. A car and an oven may be a handy combination sometimes, but they perform different tasks, and only having a car with an oven, or only having an oven in the car, might sometimes be very limiting and inconvenient. SIMH, to my knowledge, has never done this on any of its native platforms. I've not spoken with Bob Supnik about this, but if it did in fact do this on its Windows port, and it doesn't any longer, it's likely because Bob realized the above and removed that functionality. I certainly would have. After all, if every PDP-11/23 came with a VT100 permanently and undetachably connected to its console port, what would a person do if they wanted an LA36 on the console? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 11 20:46:43 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:46:43 -0400 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA3AF03.2090408@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >What was the relationship to "EDIT" in MS-DOS? > I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but I have used the EDIT command ever since I started using DOS followed by Windows 95, Windows 98SE and currently Windows XP. The EDIT.COM file is run in what seems like a DOS box under many Windows operating systems and has the same (probably since it is actually the same identical file that I am using - at least it says MS-DOS EDITOR V2.0.026) commands in all systems. The commands are limited as is the size of the input file. But it gets the job done in the same way that KED does (but with different commands) under RT-11. Is this the question you are asking? From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 11 20:53:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 18:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA3AF03.2090408@compsys.to> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3AF03.2090408@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20110411185155.Q84642@shell.lmi.net> > >What was the relationship to "EDIT" in MS-DOS? On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but I have used the > EDIT command ever since I started using DOS followed by > Windows 95, Windows 98SE and currently Windows XP. > > The EDIT.COM file is run in what seems like a DOS box > under many Windows operating systems and has the same > (probably since it is actually the same identical file that I > am using - at least it says MS-DOS EDITOR V2.0.026) > commands in all systems. > > The commands are limited as is the size of the input file. > But it gets the job done in the same way that KED > does (but with different commands) under RT-11. > > Is this the question you are asking? While all interesting, I was aking about the intertwining of "EDIT" and QBASIC, to the extent that EDIT wouldn't run without QBASIC being present. As Liam mentioned, EDIT was piggy-backed on the QBASIC code. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 11 21:06:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:06:35 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110411154721.N84642@shell.lmi.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> <20110411154721.N84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA3B3AB.7030506@neurotica.com> On 4/11/11 7:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't think that I can remember ANYTHING else as offensive as Clancy and > Harvey's remarks. > > There were a few other remarks worthy of note in the same presentation, > including their assertion that recursion was the only possible way to scan > a multi-dimensional array, that SCHEME (a LISP variant) was the only > language in which that particular problem example COULD BE solved, and > their LIE that the UC Berkeley catalog had been rewritten "about 5 years > ago" to reflect their "new" model of lower division CS. (when confronted > with the current catalog, they asserted that it was a "throwback glitch"; > they ceased responding when I presented copies of the previous 5 years of > catalogs.) They took long enough to type in their code of their SCHEME > "only possible language" solution for me to write C, FORTRAN, BASIC, and > half of the PROCEDURE DIVISION of COBOL. C'mon guys, scanning all > elements of a multi-dimensional array is NOT more than trivial. Wow, clueless. This looks like a perfect example of "those who can, do, while those who can't, teach". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 11 21:21:18 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:21:18 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA3B71E.8040609@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: >> Understood. Again I agree. But I am curious, why has SIMH dropped >> what little support it did have for the Application Keypad on the VT100? >> >> Also, why has some eager beaver not stepped up to the plate and >> developed >> an option for SIMH to provide that support for RT-11 fellows like >> myself? > > > We're talking about very different things. I will try to explain > what I mean. > > SIMH doesn't "support" specific keys or specific terminal emulations > at all, because that's outside its scope. It's very much like saying > a PDP-11/23 (for example) "supports" a VT100, or a PDP-11/23 supports > PF keys, or some other terminal function. It doesn't...it has serial > ports, and the OS (as you know) squirts bytes in and out of those > serial ports, and what the terminal or the OS (or the app software for > that matter) has nothing to do with the fact that the computer is, in > this example, a PDP-11/23. > > A PDP-11/23 "has support for" a VT100's PF keys if a VT100 terminal > (or a clone) is plugged into it. In exactly this same way, SIMH "has > support for" PF keys if a VT100 terminal is "plugged into" it. > > Say I start a terminal program like "gnome-terminal", which is a > common terminal program on Linux and Solaris machines. In that > terminal window, I get a shell prompt. I start SIMH, which creates a > virtual PDP-11 whose default console port (777566) is logically > "connected to" a terminal...not a hardware VT100, but the instance of > the "gnome-terminal" program. It speaks ANSI codes and mostly > implements a VT100, so [2J will clear the screen, [H homes > the cursor, etc. All of these functions are completely outside the > scope of SIMH. If, say, I boot RSTS/E on that virtual PDP-11, do SET > TERM/DEV=VT100", and I fire up EDT, then tell EDT to "SET MODE > CHANGE", the first thing that happens (more or less) is that EDT sends > [2J to clear the screen. SIMH never sees this...or, more > correctly, it sees those four bytes written to 777566, and squirts > them through the emulated serial port untouched. At that point, they > are no longer the responsibility of SIMH. It's up to the "terminal" > that is "connected" to this virtual PDP-11 to understand what those > bytes mean and what to do with them. > > If I had started SIMH under a terminal program that only understands > the control codes of, say, an LSI ADM-3A, that EDT session would look > like gibberish. > > In this way, I can start SIMH under any sort of terminal (iTerm > under OS X has wonderful full-VT-keypad emulation) and have things > work the way I want them to, for any desired configuration. I can > even start it under a pseudo-terminal that has no display, but watches > for patterns sent from SIMH and sends responses accordingly, as if > they'd been typed by a human. (an "expect" script, for anyone into > such things) > > What you are (or seem to be) talking about is starting a PDP-11 > emulator that somehow opens its own window, thus creating a virtual > terminal of sorts, and that terminal is responsible for interpreting > the control codes, and handling key events and translating them to the > appropriate bytes to send to the emulated PDP-11's emulated serial port. > > This is certainly a reasonable setup, but it locks you into one > specific configuration that may or may not be what you want. A car > and an oven may be a handy combination sometimes, but they perform > different tasks, and only having a car with an oven, or only having an > oven in the car, might sometimes be very limiting and inconvenient. > > SIMH, to my knowledge, has never done this on any of its native > platforms. I've not spoken with Bob Supnik about this, but if it did > in fact do this on its Windows port, and it doesn't any longer, it's > likely because Bob realized the above and removed that functionality. > I certainly would have. After all, if every PDP-11/23 came with a > VT100 permanently and undetachably connected to its console port, what > would a person do if they wanted an LA36 on the console? While I agree with everything that you have written, I still STRONGLY suggest that SIMH have an optional set of terminal interfaces which are able to emulate the most popular terminals which DEC supported for the PDP-11. While I agree that supporting all of the video terminals from the VT52 series to the VT510 series would not be reasonable, at least supporting the VT100 would provide 95% of the functions needed to run SIMH with a PDP-11, in particular for RT-11 when SL: is used or in general for RSTS/E when ARROW keys are used. I also agree that the reason that Bob removed the VT100 Application Keypad functions was likely for the reasons you suggest. So while having a VT100 permanently connected to every PDP-11 running under SIMH is not the solution that Bob Subnik adopted, having that as an option would seem to have been helpful for those users who need a VT100 display interface. On the other hand, while Ersatz-11 does allow major flexibility on the keyboard side, on the display side of the fence, it is a VT100 by default all of the time. If someone wanted an LA36 on the console, then it is possible to change some of the display parameters. But since the output is still to a video display, then VT100 type of character handling seems the most appropriate in any case. In short, if you are using any standard PC these days, a hard copy display is just not available in any case as an option as far as I am aware. However, with Ersatz-11 it would be possible to have a serial port with a cable attached to an LA36 on the console in which case the operator could tell the operating system that an LA36 was being used. In this case, I agree with the default selection for SIMH, I just disagree that there is no VT100 support as an option. Jeome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 11 21:28:59 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:28:59 -0400 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <20110411185155.Q84642@shell.lmi.net> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3AF03.2090408@compsys.to> <20110411185155.Q84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA3B8EB.8020009@compsys.to> >Fred Cisin wrote: >>>What was the relationship to "EDIT" in MS-DOS? >>> >On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but I have used the >>EDIT command ever since I started using DOS followed by >>Windows 95, Windows 98SE and currently Windows XP. >> >>The EDIT.COM file is run in what seems like a DOS box >>under many Windows operating systems and has the same >>(probably since it is actually the same identical file that I >>am using - at least it says MS-DOS EDITOR V2.0.026) >>commands in all systems. >> >>The commands are limited as is the size of the input file. >>But it gets the job done in the same way that KED >>does (but with different commands) under RT-11. >> >>Is this the question you are asking? >> >While all interesting, I was aking about the intertwining of "EDIT" and >QBASIC, to the extent that EDIT wouldn't run without QBASIC being present. >As Liam mentioned, EDIT was piggy-backed on the QBASIC code. > > I have never used QBASIC, so EDIT was certainly not piggy-backed on the QBASIC code - unless I did not realize it was being done. And since I can be sure which file is executing is PATH is not used, then it must be EDIT.COM that is being executed. I must be missing something in your explanation. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 23:58:16 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 23:58:16 -0500 Subject: Anyone have documentation for a Finlux ELM 640.350-M1 display? Message-ID: Hi, All, Digging through some boxes from the attic, I rediscovered a hamfest find from some time ago - a Finlux ELM 640.350-M1 electroluminescent display. It has a couple of toggle switches and a pair of covered 8-position DIP switches, and based on the DE9M input connector and the implied resolution from the model number, I have every expectation it's an EGA-compatible display. The two toggle switches are merely marked "Mode 1" and "Mode 2", but at least the settings on the DIP switches are documented on the back of the case as follows: DS1 8 LOW HIGH INTENSITY 7 NOT USED 6 NOT USED 5 MSB \ 4 - + HORIZONTAL SHIFT 3 LSB / 2 COARSE \ 1 FINE / PHASE DS2 8 NOT USED 7 R' G' B' \ 6 B + VIDEO LSB 5 G + 4 R / 3 B \ 2 G + VIDEO MSB 1 R / I have to admit that I sort of missed the PC EGA experience (I went right from mono to VGA), so I'm not sure I fully understand the multiplicity of options this device provides. I've googled for the model number, but the closest appearance I've found appears to be a laundry list of for-sale items from 2001. My knowledge of Finnish doesn't extend far enough to fully interpret those hits, but Google Translate does a fair enough job. Anyone happen to have Finlux documentation or at least recognize the meaning behind the DIP switches? The good news is that it's a 90-240VAC input device with a standard "figure 8" plug - easy to power up, even in the States. I'm wondering what I'll drive it with, even to test it. Thanks for any hints, tips, or hard info, -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 12 00:02:43 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 22:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA3B8EB.8020009@compsys.to> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3AF03.2090408@compsys.to> <20110411185155.Q84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B8EB.8020009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20110411215142.V96504@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>The EDIT.COM file is run in what seems like a DOS box > >>under many Windows operating systems and has the same > >>(probably since it is actually the same identical file that I > >>am using - at least it says MS-DOS EDITOR V2.0.026) > >>commands in all systems. THAT is very useful data, since it is now apparent that there are version differences. > >While all interesting, I was aking about the intertwining of "EDIT" and > >QBASIC, to the extent that EDIT wouldn't run without QBASIC being present. > >As Liam mentioned, EDIT was piggy-backed on the QBASIC code. > I have never used QBASIC, so EDIT was certainly not piggy-backed on the > QBASIC code - > unless I did not realize it was being done. And since I can be sure > which file is executing > is PATH is not used, then it must be EDIT.COM that is being executed. > I must be missing something in your explanation. I had an experience similar to Liam's, where EDIT refused to run without QBASIC being present. However, I certainly can neither debate it, nor explain the difference between your experience and the one that Liam and I had, because I do not remember which version of MS-DOS (or PC-DOS?), whether it was EDIT.COM v EDIT.EXE (nor whether the first two bytes were or were not MZ), etc. I asked the question, hoping that somebody else remembered, and knew the history of why and what had changed in which versions. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 00:32:15 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 00:32:15 -0500 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <20110411215142.V96504@shell.lmi.net> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3AF03.2090408@compsys.to> <20110411185155.Q84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B8EB.8020009@compsys.to> <20110411215142.V96504@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>The EDIT.COM file is run in what seems like a DOS box >> >>under many Windows operating systems and has the same >> >>(probably since it is actually the same identical file that I >> >>am using - at least it says MS-DOS EDITOR V2.0.026) >> >>commands in all systems. > > THAT is very useful data, since it is now apparent that there are version > differences. MS-DOS EDITOR V2.0.26 tells me that Jerome is talking about Win95 or newer (I checked on an XP box - it still reports V2.0.026 and a copyright date of 1995). >> >While all interesting, I was aking about the intertwining of "EDIT" and >> >QBASIC, to the extent that EDIT wouldn't run without QBASIC being present. >> >As Liam mentioned, EDIT was piggy-backed on the QBASIC code. Yep. I concur (having manually built many a specialty DOS floppy in the mid-1990s, when we used to run harddriveless DOS machines on a Novell network and needed to pack as much as possible on the boot floppy). >> I have never used QBASIC, so EDIT was certainly not piggy-backed on the >> QBASIC code - >> unless I did not realize it was being done.... If you weren't using MS-DOS 5.0 to 6.22, then you probably weren't using EDIT.COM chaining to QBASIC in single-file-edit-mode. If you were using Win95 or newer, you were probably running EDIT.EXE. On a suitable platform, try "QBASIC /EDIT" and see if that's familiar. >> I must be missing something in your explanation. The particular DOS version and how "DOS" under Win95 is unlike MS-DOS 5 and MS-DOS 6 w/Win3.1. > I had an experience similar to Liam's, where EDIT refused to run without > QBASIC being present. As have I, with MS-DOS 5 and MS-DOS 6. > However, I certainly can neither debate it, nor explain the difference > between your experience and the one that Liam and I had, because I do not > remember which version of MS-DOS (or PC-DOS?)... I can't help your memory, but I can say that there's a difference between "real" MS-DOS and a "DOS Window" in Win95 and later. -ethan From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Apr 12 00:38:19 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 06:38:19 +0100 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <665481CA93234224B7CB4C3F9D30DB1F@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Kermit in use here daily. Used for connections between my many DEC systems and the non-DEC world Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Torfinn Ingolfsen Sent: 11 April 2011 21:18 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) Hi, On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't > exactly a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the likes of telenet and tymnet? Well, I recently resurrected an old ND-Satellite/9 minicomputer from Norsk Data. The machine doesn't have any network interfaces, except for terminal (serial) ports. However, it did have kermit on one of the 8 inch floppies that I got with the machine. I still use kermit to transfer files to and from that machine. Very handy. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Tue Apr 12 00:29:56 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:29:56 +1000 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <59477026-BB68-4B61-BBC1-48661D04EAA3@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 12/04/2011, at 5:57 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > We also use Kermit-10 on the 2065 to provide file transfer capabilities, > since we do not have TCP/IP for Tops-10 (nor a Tops-10 driver for the > Stanford MEIS[1] even if we did). I used kermit to transfer files between the DECsystem-10 and the 'new fangled' VAX-11/780 a few moons ago :-) Also, someone at La Trobe University wrote a kermit 'channel' for PMDF to allow for reliable e-mail transfer over poor quality modem connections. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 17:34:33 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <4DA31685.1120.14D6444@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <702733.97660.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >? What's a Chameleon? You guys are making me think > of the Mimic or > >? something... > > Do the name "Seequa" mean anything to ya? :) yes indeed. But what "that" Chameleon has to do w/the Commie 64 I can't figure out. I forget, I think someone said "I'd rather have a Chameleon". They were referring to the Seequa Chameleon? I'm confused. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 17:36:29 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *NEW* C64! In-Reply-To: <20110411145211.R84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <567740.11991.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Fred Cisin wrote: > There were many arguments about "Shirt pocket Diskette" > standard.? George > Morrow declared that the real answer lay in cutting a deal > with the > garment industry to control the size of shirt pockets. Oh now that's goofy. I think they just should have adopted the 2" standard. I'd have less woes at the moment, that's all I know. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 17:39:59 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA31888.11045.1553F40@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <171134.29696.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I recall when M$ packed as a freebie with their C compiler, > but I > didn't bother to use it--and this may also be the reason > that it > didn't catch on generally. Packed QC w/something? At least one version of QC came w/an interpreted C, IIRC. > I preferred a more formal development style.? Edit, > compile, run, > lather, rinse, repeat.? Lots of different source > files.? The time > saved by using QuickC didn't amount to a hill of beans in > the overall > picture. You could semi automate the process, and alleviate all those source files, using batch commands. I used to do it w/assembler. > I find that the more sophisticated and "helpful"the IDE, > the more it > tends to disturb my thought processes. Amen. In this day and age you can't get away from them, but they do have that tendency. > But then, I'm old. me too. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 19:25:59 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone want a defective Tandy 2000? Message-ID: <617887.33395.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> free but for postage both have keyboards and the color graphics card, 2 floppies each. Don't ask me what's wrong, I haven't looked at them, don't have the time nor inclination right now. 07716 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 12 02:08:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 00:08:15 -0700 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <171134.29696.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4DA31888.11045.1553F40@cclist.sydex.com>, <171134.29696.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DA397EF.4393.346EB1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2011 at 15:39, Chris M wrote: > Packed QC w/something? At least one version of QC came w/an > interpreted C, IIRC. I'll have to go back to my MSC collection (it goes all the way back to when Microsoft sold Lattice C as their own) to see when M$ tossed QuickC with their regular compiled product. > You could semi automate the process, and alleviate all those source > files, using batch commands. I used to do it w/assembler. You mean, for instance, like using MAKE? Before MS got the bugs worked out of nmake, I had my own any-idiot-can-use it called BUILD that worked out the dependencies without the nasty syntax of make (less capable, but good enough for my purposes). Eventually, things got fast enough that compiling in bits and pieces didn't matter much. > Amen. In this day and age you can't get away from them, but they do > have that tendency. I still work from paper, at least in outline form. I find it just about impossible to work out a program without a pad of paper or a whiteboard close by. By the time I'm entering code, the design's pretty much fully worked out. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 12 03:18:54 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 10:18:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years In-Reply-To: <4DA35511.7010705@dunnington.plus.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> <4DA30289.8000001@mich.com> <3D7643A8-CBA2-458E-8C23-85B7770E853E@bellsouth.net> <4DA3326E.6080101@dunnington.plus.com> <382E8BCA-70EF-46AB-813C-5186DAC4CA11@bellsouth.net> <4DA34799.4070506@neurotica.com> <4DA35511.7010705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Absolutely. Kermit has a particularly accurate VT100 emulation, and it's Many Kermits, especially C-Kermit, don't have any terminal emulation at all. Christian From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 07:14:13 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 08:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: <186392FF784346398439CD532E3C7F12@massey.ac.nz> References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA390B2.3080109@gmail.com> <186392FF784346398439CD532E3C7F12@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: > Steve, > > One thought. Do you have a ProFile with a copy of Lisa Office on it already, > that you can plug in and see if it boots? Even though you won't be able to > open documents due the security matching, it still should boot. It just > might be a way of further reducing down the possibilities. One of the ProFiles has Lisa Office 3.0 on it, but will not boot. It chugs away for a while, then fails with Error 10707. This whole situation has me quite puzzled. -- From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Apr 12 08:00:37 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 09:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Surplus in Charleston, SC Message-ID: Are there any electronics or computer surplus places worth visiting in the Charleston, SC area? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 08:35:45 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 14:35:45 +0100 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA3B8EB.8020009@compsys.to> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3AF03.2090408@compsys.to> <20110411185155.Q84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B8EB.8020009@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 12 April 2011 03:28, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I have never used QBASIC, so EDIT was certainly not piggy-backed on the > QBASIC code - That is a non-sequitur. > unless I did not realize it was being done. If you didn't know, how would you tell? EDIT.COM just ran qbasic.exe /edit %1 ... there was no mention of or sign of QBASIC in the end result. > ?And since I can be sure which > file is executing > is PATH is not used, then it must be EDIT.COM that is being executed. Edit.*com* if you were running on MS-DOS 5 through 6.22. This means QBASIC. Edit.*exe* if you were running on Win95 or later. This is the standalone, multi-file editor. Simple as that. > I must be missing something in your explanation. Or mine... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 08:41:50 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 06:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Chris M wrote: >> >> Quick C had become popular w/developers (not for >> primary use) long after M$ canned it. Not sure why, maybe >> they just liked the IDE. And liked using it for quick and >> dirty tasks. >> > >> Eh?? I've NEVER seen Quick C in "mainstream" >> use.? You sure you're not thinking of Turbo C? > > I never said mainstream use. Nevertheless I know of at least 2 full time > developers that like to use if for, I'll repeat, quick and dirty tasks. > I think I even saw a mention in C User's Journal while it was commonly > available. > The last release of Quick C was 1990. Borland's Turbo C pretty much guaranteed that it was an also-ran. >> >> I'll assume Quick C could be used to write Quick >> Basic, but what about the other way around? >> > >> Quick C and QB were _completely_ different product lines >> and languages. > > Is this so hard to grasp? Could you write a compiler "on the level" of > Quick Basic w/QC? That's what I'm asking. I'll wager some type of C > compiler was used to write most of what's out there. In the case of > Quick Basic, possibly even a M$ product. Could it have been done w/QC? > Perhaps I threw some people off when I started out mentioning Pascal, it > having it's own way of storing data. May not be the first choice when > endeavoring to write a compiler (though even at least early versions of > Turbo C used pascal conventions), but were any of these tools up to the > task? > Oh for... Look, when you write, "I'll assume Quick C could be used to write Quick Basic" that says to pretty much everyone that reads it that you're asking if you can write QB code in QC. You never mentioned writing a compiler. If you want to write a compiler that will generate code that QB45 can _link_ to, you'd need to use something that emitted a compatible binary format. I _think_ it used COFF. Borland compilers used a different binary format which made it (nearly?) impossible to link against libraries that were compiled with Microsoft products. If you wanted to write a QB45 _like_ compiler, then your choice of host compiler really doesn't matter. Hell, you could use Lua if you wanted. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 08:44:58 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 06:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <659731.48451.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Liam Proven wrote: > OIC! Right, sorry. I think your wording was a bit ambiguous, though. > If by "a bit", you mean "completely", you're right. :) > I think someone else has already said all I know - that, IIRC, you > could write extensions for VB in Delphi, whereas you could not in VB > itself. Yes, I think Delphi is a full-blown, proper, compiled language > and in principle you could write anything in it. I vaguely recall > maybe hearing about compiler projects and even OS projects attempted > in it. The guy that wrote Trumpet Winsock figured out a process for writing device drivers in Delphi a few years ago. Up to that point it was "common knowledge" that such a thing was impossible. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 08:54:32 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 14:54:32 +0100 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <659731.48451.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12 April 2011 14:44, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Liam Proven wrote: > >> OIC! Right, sorry. I think your wording was a bit ambiguous, though. >> > If by "a bit", you mean "completely", you're right. :) Damn that British understatement habit of mine! >> I think someone else has already said all I know - that, IIRC, you >> could write extensions for VB in Delphi, whereas you could not in VB >> itself. Yes, I think Delphi is a full-blown, proper, compiled language >> and in principle you could write anything in it. I vaguely recall >> maybe hearing about compiler projects and even OS projects attempted >> in it. > > The guy that wrote Trumpet Winsock figured out a process for writing device > drivers in Delphi a few years ago. ?Up to that point it was "common > knowledge" that such a thing was impossible. Peter Tattam? Of recent return to fame? http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2282875 -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 08:58:13 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 06:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Quick C had become popular w/developers (not for primary use) long >>>> after M$ canned it. Not sure why, maybe they just liked the IDE. And >>>> liked using it for quick and dirty tasks. > > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Eh? I've NEVER seen Quick C in "mainstream" use. You sure you're not >> thinking of Turbo C? > > I used early Quick C and TurboC interchangeably for quick and dirty tasks > (NOT for retail products). I settled on TurboC for teaching beginning C > classes when Borland started making free download available. But, I also > REQUIRED each student to write at least one homework assignment using a > command line compiler (I recommended GCC and DeSmet "PersonalC") > Neat. Makefiles could be a class all by itself. :) >> Quick C and QB were _completely_ different product lines and languages. > > What was the relationship to "EDIT" in MS-DOS? QuickBASIC with (AFAIR) the /EDITOR command line switch. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 09:05:33 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 07:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Liam Proven wrote: > It's a very nice handy bit of code, actually. A fairly decent BASIC > interpreter and a decent editor coupled together and given away for > free. I used it a lot for quick scripts and things and still miss it > today. > Check out http://smallbasic.com/ - it's essentially the successor to QuickBASIC. An updated edition of BASIC Computer Games was released last year that uses it - http://computerscienceforkids.com/SmallBasicComputerGames.aspx g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 09:08:06 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 07:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA3B3AB.7030506@neurotica.com> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> <20110411154721.N84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B3AB.7030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Wow, clueless. This looks like a perfect example of "those who can, do, > while those who can't, get tenure". > There. Fixed that for you. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 12 09:19:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 10:19:10 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> <20110411154721.N84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B3AB.7030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA45F5E.50804@neurotica.com> On 4/12/11 10:08 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Wow, clueless. This looks like a perfect example of "those who can, >> do, while those who can't, get tenure". >> > There. Fixed that for you. :) Excellent. Thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 09:17:46 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 07:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <659731.48451.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> The guy that wrote Trumpet Winsock figured out a process for writing device >> drivers in Delphi a few years ago. ?Up to that point it was "common >> knowledge" that such a thing was impossible. > > Peter Tattam? Of recent return to fame? > http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2282875 Yep. Here's a link to the article he wrote about the Ring 0 driver work he did: http://petertattam.com/?p=19 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Apr 12 09:27:35 2011 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 07:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FF DEC cabinet, dual RL02 drives, RL11, cables and disk packs Message-ID: <595527.72534.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I have a DEC commercial cabinet available for free, together with two RL02 drives (with rack rails), a UNIBUS M7762 (RL02 driver card), and some cables. I also have a number of disk packs. The RL02 drives were working when decomissioned, and fit the DEC cab with space for a CPU unit if you have one. Items are collection only from West Yorkshire (UK). I'm not splitting the items - so its everything in one collection please. All items 'as is' I cant guarantee anything works, or if its complete. email me if interested. From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Apr 12 09:35:09 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 10:35:09 -0400 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA31888.11045.1553F40@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4DA31888.11045.1553F40@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DA4631D.4020902@verizon.net> On 4/11/2011 6:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I find that the more sophisticated and "helpful"the IDE, the more it > tends to disturb my thought processes. > > But then, I'm old. > > --Chuck > Chuck, I'm not (that) old, but I started out programming in the late 70's, early 80's with the most basic of the editors out there. With this being said, I *love* the new IDEs. There are some features that I find are incredibly useful and reduce the number of errors in my code AS I'M CREATING IT -- instead of during compile time or later. The things I like: * in-line syntax checking * color coding (great for printing too): so much easier to read * built-in subversion(etc) for checking in/out code * When referencing a class, a drop-down box shows up to show you available methods to choose from. * When you reference a function, it immediately hovers the variable type, highlighting the argument you are on, when you don't remember if its (string,int) or (int,string) * Automatic documentation lookup. Click a suggest method, and you get a pop-up box with the usage. Fantastic. Forget about changing screens to go find the API guide. * GUI-builders are also really nice. Sure, you can do it by hand, but why? * Ability to collapse blocks of code so that you have everything important to the current task on one screen. * Many IDEs are free and have wide language support * Windows, Linux, Mac support for NetBeans and Eclipse. * Ability to turn off and on the specific automatic as-you-type features. If the IDE detects that you've just typed what's been autocompleted, you don't now get errors -- it's smart enough to recognize what's happened. So you have the choice to accept the autocompletion or just type "through it." I honestly could go on and on. I've been using NetBeans for Java for a few years, and I am thoroughly impressed with the quality, reliability, usefulness of the features. I've also played with Eclipse. Most of these work for all the popular languages. I know there's a fair bit of Microsoft haters here, but the Visual Studio IDEs are pretty good, too. I've never been a software engineer by trade, but I've been programming for a long time. I've got a great grasp of the fundamentals, but probably fall in the middle someplace in terms of capability. For me, these new IDEs really help me produce better code faster --- and do so in real-time, before I even hit the build button. Using them makes programming much more enjoyable for me. Keith From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Apr 12 09:52:21 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 10:52:21 -0400 Subject: difference between Quick compilers References: Message-ID: <3A1EF55B0B9C403D82C5BD2AD8FFBC3D@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 00:32:15 -0500 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: difference between Quick compilers > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > If you weren't using MS-DOS 5.0 to 6.22, then you probably weren't > using EDIT.COM chaining to QBASIC in single-file-edit-mode. If you > were using Win95 or newer, you were probably running EDIT.EXE. -- I think you'll find that both the old QBASIC-dependent V1.1 and the stand-alone V2.0.x are .COM files. FWIW the new version works fine in the old 'real' DOS; I had to 'upgrade' EDIT.COM & .HLP in several remote-access client systems running DOS6.22 because the old V1.1 version locked up when run remotely via PCAnywhere (the only program(s) that I ever ran across that *didn't* work properly over PCAnywhere, BTW). m From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 12 10:43:09 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 08:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA4631D.4020902@verizon.net> from Keith Monahan at "Apr 12, 11 10:35:09 am" Message-ID: <201104121543.p3CFh9VK015312@floodgap.com> > With this being said, I *love* the new IDEs. There are some features > that I find are incredibly useful and reduce the number of errors in my > code AS I'M CREATING IT -- instead of during compile time or later. I find that really slows me down. I like that Eclipse, for example, offers this, but I'd rather only have it do it when I ask it to, not when I'm just typing along. For example, in vi I can bounce on the % key when I have unbalanced closures and I don't know where. But it only does it when I ask it to. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 12 11:04:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 09:04:55 -0700 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <201104121543.p3CFh9VK015312@floodgap.com> References: <4DA4631D.4020902@verizon.net> from Keith Monahan at "Apr 12, 11 10:35:09 am", <201104121543.p3CFh9VK015312@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DA415B7.21663.31FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2011 at 8:43, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > With this being said, I *love* the new IDEs. There are some > > features that I find are incredibly useful and reduce the number of > > errors in my code AS I'M CREATING IT -- instead of during compile > > time or later. > > I find that really slows me down. I like that Eclipse, for example, > offers this, but I'd rather only have it do it when I ask it to, not > when I'm just typing along. I earned my programming stripes in the old corporate world. Write up a proposal; get approval to proceed (often entailed a lot of lobbying); write up a design document; submit it for review; defend your design; write up an implementation document; divide the work, submit a test plan, code the tests, code the project code, submit both for code review... In fact, coding was a very small part of a new design. Politics was far more important and I'm aware of no development packages that can handle that aspect. That approach colors the way I work today. I don't program much GUI, so IDEs that help with that don't really help me much. I suspect that an IDE might be of some use if I did. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Apr 12 11:25:04 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:25:04 -0400 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA415B7.21663.31FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DA4631D.4020902@verizon.net> from Keith Monahan at "Apr 12, 11 10:35:09 am", <201104121543.p3CFh9VK015312@floodgap.com> <4DA415B7.21663.31FDBA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DA47CE0.5020600@verizon.net> On 4/12/2011 12:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I earned my programming stripes in the old corporate world. Write up > a proposal; get approval to proceed (often entailed a lot of > lobbying); write up a design document; submit it for review; defend > your design; write up an implementation document; divide the work, > submit a test plan, code the tests, code the project code, submit > both for code review... > > In fact, coding was a very small part of a new design. Politics was > far more important This sounds fairly typical of the environments I've worked in for the last five years. You seem to indicate that this is overkill or unnecessary? I'm currently bringing QA to a place which has never had it. There are no requirements document. Without one, software development and the internal customer aren't often on the same page. Development produces something that "kind of" meets the expectation, but doesn't give them fully what they want because this hasn't been spelled out. Feature creep happens. Much of the software framework was never designed --- and so there's no design documents anywhere. Each developer handles each situation his own way --- which almost never matches what the others have done. No style guide = no consistency. Without a requirements document, how will QA know when it's finished testing? We use the requirements document as THE STANDARD. We test to the standard. If the RD says it must do X, Y, and Z, we wrap test cases around each feature, and ensure that X, Y, and Z work as designed. Just wondering whether you think the process you listed above is prudent and necessary or overkill? I get your point that actual coding is a fraction of the process, but was interested in your input. Thanks Keith From oe5ewl at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 11:46:51 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 18:46:51 +0200 Subject: FF DEC cabinet, dual RL02 drives, RL11, cables and disk packs In-Reply-To: <595527.72534.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <595527.72534.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nice offer. Sadly too far for me to drive by and collect the stuff. But I think you'll find a fellow collector. By the way, I'm looking for a 9track tape unit and a RL02 drive. If anyone in Austria / Southern Germany wants to get rid of these, please drop a note. Shape is nearly irellevant - it only should be complete and restorable, even it'd take time to restore them to working order. I'd give them a good home. Regards and good luck, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/4/12 silvercreekvalley : > I have a DEC commercial cabinet available for free, together with > two RL02 drives (with rack rails), a UNIBUS M7762 (RL02 driver > card), and some cables. > > I also have a number of disk packs. > > The RL02 drives were working when decomissioned, and fit the DEC > cab with space for a CPU unit if you have one. > > Items are collection only from West Yorkshire (UK). I'm not splitting the > items - so its everything in one collection please. All items 'as is' I cant > guarantee anything works, or if its complete. > > email me if interested. > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 12 12:30:41 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:30:41 -0600 Subject: ebay: Friden STW-10 1949 calculator, $40 Message-ID: I've bought things from this seller before and they pack things properly. See item # 190480667530 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 12 12:53:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 10:53:36 -0700 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA47CE0.5020600@verizon.net> References: <4DA4631D.4020902@verizon.net>, <4DA415B7.21663.31FDBA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DA47CE0.5020600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DA42F30.2241.957F5C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2011 at 12:25, Keith Monahan wrote: > You seem to indicate that this is overkill or unnecessary? > > I'm currently bringing QA to a place which has never had it. There > are no requirements document. Without one, software development and > the internal customer aren't often on the same page. Development > produces something that "kind of" meets the expectation, but doesn't > give them fully what they want because this hasn't been spelled out. > Feature creep happens. I think it's useful. In a perfect world, people would be sober, reasonable and without distractions. They'd write perfectly transparent code with great narrative, so that there would never be any doubt in the mind of the poor unfortunate who gets the job of maintenance about what the thought process of the original author was. We don't live in a perfect world; therefore we have design documents, test specifications, code review and (not unimportantly) coding standards. In a team, this helps to keep the expression of the design (as code) as that of a single personality. Naturally, this assumes that people are willing to work within the system. One particular nightmare I recall involved a compiler--the frontend guy insisted on parsing to a binary tree; the backend guy insisted that his input be an n-ary tree. Neither was willing to give an inch, even though both conceded that the choice didn't really matter. As a result, the only way we could make peace was to introduce an intermediate layer that translated from one tree form to the other. Had the decision been called out in a design document, there would not have been the problem. But the two involved both thought they'd get a jump on the design--code first and write the design specification later and the devil take the hindmost. I have design documents that I wrote over 30 years ago. While I don't remember a line of code that I wrote or even the development environment, I could probably re-implement what I wrote from the documentation without a lot of trouble. If I had just the code, I'd probably spend a lot longer scratching my head... In today's world, I wonder if that methodology would be considered as "quaint". --Chuck From andreww591 at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 14:10:25 2011 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:10:25 -0600 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <4DA3B71E.8040609@compsys.to> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> <4DA3B71E.8040609@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DA4A3A1.1050601@gmail.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > While I agree with everything that you have written, I still STRONGLY > suggest that SIMH have an optional set of terminal interfaces which are > able to emulate the most popular terminals which DEC supported for > the PDP-11. While I agree that supporting all of the video terminals > from the VT52 series to the VT510 series would not be reasonable, > at least supporting the VT100 would provide 95% of the functions > needed to run SIMH with a PDP-11, in particular for RT-11 when > SL: is used or in general for RSTS/E when ARROW keys are used. > > I also agree that the reason that Bob removed the VT100 Application > Keypad functions was likely for the reasons you suggest. > > So while having a VT100 permanently connected to every PDP-11 > running under SIMH is not the solution that Bob Subnik adopted, > having that as an option would seem to have been helpful for those > users who need a VT100 display interface. > > On the other hand, while Ersatz-11 does allow major flexibility on > the keyboard side, on the display side of the fence, it is a VT100 by > default all of the time. If someone wanted an LA36 on the console, > then it is possible to change some of the display parameters. But > since the output is still to a video display, then VT100 type of > character handling seems the most appropriate in any case. > > In short, if you are using any standard PC these days, a hard copy > display is just not available in any case as an option as far as I am > aware. However, with Ersatz-11 it would be possible to have a > serial port with a cable attached to an LA36 on the console in > which case the operator could tell the operating system that an > LA36 was being used. > > In this case, I agree with the default selection for SIMH, I just > disagree that there is no VT100 support as an option. SIMH supports redirecting the console to a Telnet port using "set console telnet=". You can connect just about any terminal emulator you want in this way, so there is no need for SIMH to include its own terminal emulator. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 12 14:08:50 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:08:50 -0700 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7f4fe395692df3e698977fd3c4c952ee@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 12, at 6:41 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Chris M wrote: >>> >> I'll assume Quick C could be used to write Quick >>> Basic, but what about the other way around? >>> > Quick C and QB were _completely_ different product lines >>> and languages. >> >> Is this so hard to grasp? Could you write a compiler "on the level" >> of Quick Basic w/QC? That's what I'm asking. I'll wager some type of >> C compiler was used to write most of what's out there. In the case of >> Quick Basic, possibly even a M$ product. Could it have been done >> w/QC? Perhaps I threw some people off when I started out mentioning >> Pascal, it having it's own way of storing data. May not be the first >> choice when endeavoring to write a compiler (though even at least >> early versions of Turbo C used pascal conventions), but were any of >> these tools up to the task? >> > Oh for... > > Look, when you write, "I'll assume Quick C could be used to write > Quick Basic" that says to pretty much everyone that reads it that > you're asking if you can write QB code in QC. You never mentioned > writing a compiler. Actually, while I can see people interpreting it as you suggest, I first interpreted Chris's statement the way he intended it, but maybe I'm not pretty much everyone. Perhaps it depends on what 'world' one comes from, e.g. applications vs. systems/languages. > If you want to write a compiler that will generate code that QB45 can > _link_ to, you'd need to use something that emitted a compatible > binary format. I _think_ it used COFF. Borland compilers used a > different binary format which made it (nearly?) impossible to link > against libraries that were compiled with Microsoft products. > > If you wanted to write a QB45 _like_ compiler, then your choice of > host compiler really doesn't matter. Hell, you could use Lua if you > wanted. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 12 14:16:16 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110412120833.F18923@shell.lmi.net> > > (NOT for retail products). I settled on TurboC for teaching beginning C > > classes when Borland started making free download available. But, I also > > REQUIRED each student to write at least one homework assignment using a > > command line compiler (I recommended GCC and DeSmet "PersonalC") On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > Neat. Makefiles could be a class all by itself. :) YES! I explained batchfiles and what MAKE is, and showed a couple of examples, but did NOT spend any significant amount of class time on them. One of the other instructors used Visual Studio for his classes. At the end of the semester, my students could write simple C programs (file handling, etc.) and struggle through how to use other compilers; his students could not write programs, nor use ANY compiler other than Visual Studio. I guess that his could get a job easier, mine could start a career. The differences really showed up in the second semester ("Data Structures and Algorithms") > > What was the relationship to "EDIT" in MS-DOS? > QuickBASIC with (AFAIR) the /EDITOR command line switch. Obscured by variant aps with similar names -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 14:18:34 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <7f4fe395692df3e698977fd3c4c952ee@cs.ubc.ca> References: <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <7f4fe395692df3e698977fd3c4c952ee@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> own way of storing data. May not be the first choice when endeavoring to >>> write a compiler (though even at least early versions of Turbo C used >>> pascal conventions), but were any of these tools up to the task? >>> >> Oh for... >> >> Look, when you write, "I'll assume Quick C could be used to write Quick >> Basic" that says to pretty much everyone that reads it that you're asking >> if you can write QB code in QC. You never mentioned writing a compiler. > > Actually, while I can see people interpreting it as you suggest, I first > interpreted Chris's statement the way he intended it, but maybe I'm not > pretty much everyone. Perhaps it depends on what 'world' one comes from, e.g. > applications vs. systems/languages. > I suspect you may be correct. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 12 14:23:25 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3AF03.2090408@compsys.to> <20110411185155.Q84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B8EB.8020009@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20110412121733.U18923@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Liam Proven wrote: > Edit.*com* if you were running on MS-DOS 5 through 6.22. This means QBASIC. > Edit.*exe* if you were running on Win95 or later. This is the > standalone, multi-file editor. > Simple as that. Thanks for solving the question. .EXE and .COM names could be interchanged! . . . and effect the sequence of choice if there were two programs with same name and different extensions! The REAL test (AFTER DOS decided which one to run) was whether the first two bytes were 'MZ', which would then invoke the .EXE handler. OB_Historical_trivia: Was there really a "Mark Zbikowski" at Microsoft? > > I must be missing something in your explanation. > Or mine... Most of us only have one or two legs of the elephant, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 14:33:38 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <20110412120833.F18923@shell.lmi.net> References: <653930.26009.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110411163141.R84642@shell.lmi.net> <20110412120833.F18923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> (NOT for retail products). I settled on TurboC for teaching beginning C >>> classes when Borland started making free download available. But, I also >>> REQUIRED each student to write at least one homework assignment using a >>> command line compiler (I recommended GCC and DeSmet "PersonalC") > > On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Neat. Makefiles could be a class all by itself. :) > > YES! I explained batchfiles and what MAKE is, and showed a couple of > examples, but did NOT spend any significant amount of class time on them. > > > One of the other instructors used Visual Studio for his classes. At > the end of the semester, my students could write simple C programs (file > handling, etc.) and struggle through how to use other compilers; his > students could not write programs, nor use ANY compiler other than Visual > Studio. I guess that his could get a job easier, mine could start a > career. > >From where I sit as a self-taught programmer, I would have been better off learning Makefiles before "fancy" IDEs, but Makefiles weren't an option with my first "real" compiler (Turbo Pascal 2.0). Then again, I don't think any form of make was available for CP/M. :) I got up to speed with C & Makefiles soon enough when I got a copy of SCO Xenix 286 though. :) > The differences really showed up in the second semester ("Data Structures > and Algorithms") > This is a fantastic book if you're a Delphi or FPC user: http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/the-tomes-of-delphi-algorithms-and-data-structures/488272?productTrackingContext=search_results/search_shelf/center/3 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 12 14:43:07 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 12:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> <20110411154721.N84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B3AB.7030506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110412124012.G18923@shell.lmi.net> > > Wow, clueless. This looks like a perfect example of "those who can, do, > > while those who can't, get tenure". > There. Fixed that for you. :) Going back to H.L. Mencken, "Those thast can, do. Those that can't, teach. Those that can't teach, administrate. Those that can't administrate, go into politics." Our college administrators are fond of quoting the first two lines, and get seriously offended by being told of the third line. "Do NOT defenestrate, it is hard on the street cleaners." From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 12 15:00:01 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:00:01 -0700 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA31888.11045.1553F40@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4DA31888.11045.1553F40@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 11, at 3:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I preferred a more formal development style. Edit, compile, run, > lather, rinse, repeat. Lots of different source files. The time > saved by using QuickC didn't amount to a hill of beans in the overall > picture. > > I find that the more sophisticated and "helpful"the IDE, the more it > tends to disturb my thought processes. > > But then, I'm old. As a student, I was on the tail end of the keypunch/batch era. It was painful but one good thing it did was instill the notion of doing the design and coding correctly up-front, and forcing one to think in detail about your program logic before running it. It was an objective to have your program compile and then execute correctly the first time it hit the compiler. These days, that seems not just quaint but a radical notion. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 13:47:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:47:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa Test 3.0? In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 7, 11 07:58:50 am Message-ID: > Since the drive in the second unit works correctly, I'm probably not going > to spend any time on it. There's plenty of work ahead replacing all the > wiring harnesses and cleaning the case and chassis. And that's where I differ from most other people (on this list, and elsewhere). I would want to figure it out, just because it's a puzzle to solve. The fact that I had another working example is irrelevant. > > If someone put one of these balky drives in your hands, would you have any > interest in tinkering with it? Possibly. I wonder if there are any Mac 400K drives around over here (I believe that's the same mechanism),. I would want to see a complete (not neceasarily working) example of the drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 13:20:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:20:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9CC8B0.7070602@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 6, 11 09:10:24 pm Message-ID: > > On 06/04/2011 19:04, Tony Duell wrote: In case anyone's wondering why I've been silent for almost a week, it was due to problems with some modern equipment between me and this list. That is to say my ISP had routing problems (or so it appears). The ancient parts (my PC) worked perfectly. > > > I am conviced that there's a spacetime warp in my workshop. Things just > > vanish. > > Same problem here ;-) The most annoying thing is when you I the tiny > part I've just finished on the lathe (or whatever), and /it/ teleports. This normally happens when you part it and go just too far with the parting tool so that it actually separates form the stock held in the chuck (note that parting between centres is never a good idea :-)). I am told that Shakespear wrote 'Parting is such sweet sorrow', and he was most definitely correct. Ocasionally thinbgs do not disappear thoguh. The other day I foolishly tried to turn down the pivot shoulder on the governor in a telephone dial (without checking the real reason for the lack of endshake -- a distoredted cup/bearing). The goverenor escaped from the chuick and was found slightly tiwsted and without the return spring, on the other side of the workshop. The spring, amazingly, was foudn i nthe drip tray of the lathe. > > > I find those divided plastic boxes (Raaco make good ones) useful for > > this. Get the ones with fix partitions, the 'improved' adjustable > > partitions have the annoying habit of coming out at the wrong momemnt. > > > > Anyway, you can use each compartmetn for the screws, buts, etc from a > > paerticlar stage of the dismantling. > > I have a variant of that. At the back corner of my bench is a stack of > perhaps a couple of dozen small round plastic tubs, about 70mm dia and > mostly around 25mm deep, which various dips and sauces from ready-meals > came in. When I take something apart, the first batch of bits goes in a > tub. The next batch goes in another tub, which sits on top of the first, > and so on. At any given time there are probably three or four stacks on > the go, as there are 3-4 projects/repairs waiting for parts (or time, or > further thought, or enthusiasm). The divided boxes have several advantages (although unlike your tubs they are not free... If you know them ovver, you don't get a mass of parts all mixed up on the floor (Yes, I learnt to close and latch the lid of the box when I've put a part in it). If you uase the compartments of the box in a sensible order (I start at reaer left, and go by rows), it's clear the order you remvoed the parts in. A stck of tubs can be mixed up, particularly if you want to look at parts from one of the intermediate ones. The box will last a lot longer than the tubs. I find such tube degrade and crack after quite a short time. Considering I might have something dismantled for several mohts, this matters... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 13:26:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:26:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9CCA47.8010909@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 6, 11 09:17:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 06/04/2011 20:10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Leaf shutter (and diaphragm) blades must be oil-free or they will stick > > like crazy. > > I was taught (by a optical technician) that some iris diaphragm and > shutter blades do get lubricated -- but only with a tiny, tiny amount of I did say 'oil-free' not 'lubricant free' :-) More seriously, a tiny amount of graphite is probably a good idea, but I will assure you that they will run a lot better with no lubricant than they will if oily. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 13:54:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:54:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <33ae07b30720501f0a9002e50a0be641@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Apr 8, 11 10:21:19 am Message-ID: > Soemthing else that I have discovered the bad way is that focussing > screens, which are often made of plastic, do *not* like alcohol. They go > all foggy and are permanently ruined. Indeed. Actually, I think that some of my cameras are old enough to have ground glass focussing screens. The reflex mirror is, of course, front-silvered. Alcohol shouldn't attack it, but rubbing it will. Anoterh part that it's best to remove if possible. > > > It's perhaps worth mentioningthat a lot of small gear trains, in > > particualr clocks and watches, but also chutter times, etc, are > > supposed > > to run with the teeth _dry_, no oil. Yes, you put a drop on each > > pivot, > > but nowhre else. > > The self-timer on my Pontiac Baby Lynx camera had started sticking > after many years of disuse. Some lighter fluid cured that nicely. I did > put a drop of oil on the axles of the gears and AFAIK it still works. Yes, that;'s right. A drop of watch oil (or similar) on each of the pivots (the ends of the arbors (axles) where they come through the plates). The gear teeth temselves should be dry (not oiled). Although I have read that for cameras (not clocks/watches), a drop of oil on the pallets/escape wheel is not a bad thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 13:35:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:35:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9D207B.2010109@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 7, 11 03:24:59 am Message-ID: > > On 06/04/11 20:16, Tony Duell wrote: > > Perhaps I'd metter not mention the time I had a pair of EL34s with the > > anode glowing bright orange/yellow. Of coruse I had managed to short out > > the grid bias supply... > > Did they still work after you cooked the plates? Of course. It's not something I recoment trying, though. > > One of these days I should hunt down a couple of cheap vacuum tubes and > a book on VT amp design and build an audio amp... just for the hell of it. I am sure we had a thread on this a few months back... > > > I think 4 transistors failed, > > the small-signal ones blew themselves apart. Oh yes, and then the fuse > > burned out. > > Rule 1: the penalty for violating Ohm's Law is electrocution. > Rule 2: a transistor will always blow in order to protect the fuse. I disagree... A transsitor protected by a fast-acting fuse will fail short-circuit so as to ensure that the expensive fast-acting fuse also fails. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 13:30:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:30:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <69535D9F7942497E9782FF65B57A32E2@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 6, 11 07:29:29 pm Message-ID: > > > [1] One of the cats who chooses to live with me. Explanation of the neam > > on request :-) > > Please =(^.^)= OK, even though it's very off-topic ... There are 2 explanations, choose the one you like : 1) He mews. On and on and on 2) He's a ginger cat. So he's the same colour as amber/ The ancient Greek word for 'amber' is 'elektron'. This suggests the particle we all make a lot of use off. But the cate is rather heavy, and a heavy electron is a muon. Actually, if he carries on growing, I will probably have to rename him Tauon (a very heavy electron :-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 14:16:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:16:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <90F83A0D-E854-49B4-AAA1-C43246D01243@bellsouth.net> from "Geoff Oltmans" at Apr 11, 11 07:46:43 am Message-ID: > > Does anyone in any real sense use Kermit these days? Even back during my bbs= I certianly do. In fact if I ever decide to get a more modern machine, I would not consider one without a serial port (or USB-serial interface, or...) and kermit. The main reason I use it is becuase it's available for just about anything. I tink the [XYZ]modem programs were much less 'univeral'. I never found the latter for the PERQ, the BBC micro, HP9000/200, etc. As I have mentioned many times before, I find the HP95LX palmtop very useful for shipping data between machines tht are not physically next to each other .I normally use the kermit in that machine if I can. It does have an Xmodem protocol setting too, but I've never really tried it. My HP48, of course, has kermit built-in (but not Xmodem). For example, I want to send somebody a dump of an EPROM from a classic machine. My EPROM programmer has a serial por and will output the contents of the EPROM in Intel-Hex. I can capture that using the HP98LX in text capture mode, then carry the HP95LX to my PC and use kermit to transfer the data. It saves trying to get the EPROM progrmamer from by electronics bench to my computer desk (you've not seen the lack of space here :-)). > days Kermit was a rarely supported and/or slow protocol that wasn't exactly= > a first choice. Wasn't it designed for slower packet switched networks the l= > ikes of telenet and tymnet? I;'ev never found the speed of things _where I can set it going and come back when it's done_ very important. I'll start the transfer and get on with something else. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 14:35:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:35:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 11, 11 02:29:48 pm Message-ID: > ...and sadly, nobody knows how a computer works, nor cares. Looks at an article in thae latest 'Datafile' (HPCC magazine) which includes a section 'CPU Theory of Operation' with subsections like 'Micorocde Sequencer', 'R and X field decoding', 'Accumulator Control', etc and comes to the conclusion that HPCC member 788 is a 'nobody' Which is probably very true... -tony From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 15:10:55 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:10:55 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110412124012.G18923@shell.lmi.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> <20110411154721.N84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B3AB.7030506@neurotica.com> <20110412124012.G18923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In the late 90's we used Kermit running on a IBM-AT clone in my first digital electronics class. We used it to download binaries from a DOS-based 68HC11 assembler to a development board. Currently I have the Windows and Linux versions installed on my "Rosetta" machine - a PC loaded up with a bunch of different interfaces and network connectors to talk to my various machines. I haven't had the chance to use it yet - I'll probably need it when I try to fire up one of my old Sun4 machines. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 12 15:11:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:11:52 -0400 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4DA31888.11045.1553F40@cclist.sydex.com> <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> On 4/12/11 4:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I preferred a more formal development style. Edit, compile, run, >> lather, rinse, repeat. Lots of different source files. The time >> saved by using QuickC didn't amount to a hill of beans in the overall >> picture. >> >> I find that the more sophisticated and "helpful"the IDE, the more it >> tends to disturb my thought processes. >> >> But then, I'm old. > > As a student, I was on the tail end of the keypunch/batch era. It was > painful but one good thing it did was instill the notion of doing the > design and coding correctly up-front, and forcing one to think in detail > about your program logic before running it. It was an objective to have > your program compile and then execute correctly the first time it hit > the compiler. > These days, that seems not just quaint but a radical notion. Agree 100%. During a programming project, I'll compile hundreds of times in a day. In those days, one might go days or even weeks between compiles. This is to say nothing of the fact that (most) people finally figured out that too much red tape, paperwork, meetings, bureaucracy, and other distractions are counterproductive and don't generally contribute to actually getting things done. Many management types seem to prefer talking about doing stuff more than actually doing stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 15:17:50 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:17:50 -0400 Subject: Advice on Lisa 2 restoration In-Reply-To: <4D9D02E2.16247.379D126@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D9CB4BD.8030300@dunnington.plus.com> <84A224BCD0134895B63A4F8A23164AB9@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D9D02E2.16247.379D126@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 3:18 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Apr 2011 at 7:05, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> ... if they felt a bit woozy they went outside for a while and sat on a bench... > > Yes, that's an accepted response for minor phosgene exposure. ?Lest > you think that Trike is nasty when burned, consider that almost any > chlorinated hydrocarbon as well as most chlorinated plastics such as > PVC will produce phosgene when burned. And evolution of HCl, Benzene and Toluene is why you shouldn't put PVC into a laser cutter (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/104024117/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0) -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 15:25:57 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> References: , <228535.82091.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4DA31888.11045.1553F40@cclist.sydex.com> <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca> <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/12/11 4:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> I preferred a more formal development style. Edit, compile, run, >>> lather, rinse, repeat. Lots of different source files. The time >>> saved by using QuickC didn't amount to a hill of beans in the overall >>> picture. >>> >>> I find that the more sophisticated and "helpful"the IDE, the more it >>> tends to disturb my thought processes. >>> >>> But then, I'm old. >> >> As a student, I was on the tail end of the keypunch/batch era. It was >> painful but one good thing it did was instill the notion of doing the >> design and coding correctly up-front, and forcing one to think in detail >> about your program logic before running it. It was an objective to have >> your program compile and then execute correctly the first time it hit >> the compiler. >> These days, that seems not just quaint but a radical notion. > > Agree 100%. During a programming project, I'll compile hundreds of times > in a day. In those days, one might go days or even weeks between compiles. > > This is to say nothing of the fact that (most) people finally figured out > that too much red tape, paperwork, meetings, bureaucracy, and other > distractions are counterproductive and don't generally contribute to actually > getting things done. Many management types seem to prefer talking about > doing stuff more than actually doing stuff. > Then there's the assinine requirement that you give a fine grained accounting for your time resulting in the choice - tell them about what you did, or actually do it. I can understand that kind of an accounting from a conslutant*, but not from a salaried employee. SOX of course makes this particular nightmare even worse, as if such a thing were possible. * "Consultants: If you can't provide a solution, there's money to be made in prolonging the problem!" g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 12 15:29:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:29:32 -0700 Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2011 at 16:11, Dave McGuire wrote: > times in a day. In those days, one might go days or even weeks > between compiles. Mind you, I have nothing against writing slapdash code to check out an idea or algorithm. Quick and dirty, use whatever tools are available. But then, if the concept proves out, throw the code away and write and document the new code in a way that it can be maintained. I'm tired of reading Linux listings where you say "Where's the narrative? How does this thing work and why did the author do what he did? What are his naming conventions?" I know...Linux Is Wonderful and I'm a Bad Person for criticizing it. Bureaucracy is evil. --Chuck From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Apr 12 15:31:33 2011 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Chameleon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <126153.7539.qm@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm pretty sure that THIS is the Chameleon being spoken about... http://www.c64scene.com/c64/?p=3443 Al From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 12 15:33:02 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 13:33:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 12, 11 01:29:32 pm" Message-ID: <201104122033.p3CKX3X5012022@floodgap.com> > I know...Linux Is Wonderful and I'm a Bad Person for criticizing it. > Bureaucracy is evil. That's why I'm glad I'm not a paid programmer anymore. I just do it as a hobby, and then I don't have to worry particularly about implementation if it's just for fun. (I did say worry *particularly*.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eat healthy, stay fit, DIE ANYWAY! ----------------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 12 16:26:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 14:26:58 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> On 4/12/11 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm tired of reading Linux listings where you say "Where's the > narrative? How does this thing work and why did the author do what > he did? What are his naming conventions?" > I have been looking at a bunch of source projects for various fairly complicated bits of system code, and you're right, the documentation sucks, sometimes just a handful of 'man' pages. These were implementing fairly complicated distributed systems and they don't even bother properly describing their data structures or communications protocols. My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' expectations, or screw up other already running builds. I guess the way of the world now is build a vm/sandbox for every fscking thing you want to try to compile. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 12 16:32:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:32:22 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> On 4/12/11 5:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then > drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' > expectations, or screw up other already running builds. "Dependency hell", the hallmark of software developed by clueless and/or inexperienced people. Unfortunately it has become common. > I guess the way of the world now is build a vm/sandbox for every fscking > thing you want to try to compile. This is horrible. It can be avoided with some effort. I have a feeling a lot of newbies will begin to see this as an acceptable approach, though. Lots of people take the attitude that since memory, disk, and CPU cycles are plentiful now, that wasting them with terrible kludges is ok. *shudder* I won't write software like that. I'm betting you won't either. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Apr 12 16:55:28 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is horrible. It can be avoided with some effort. I have a feeling a > lot of newbies will begin to see this as an acceptable approach, though. > Lots of people take the attitude that since memory, disk, and CPU cycles are > plentiful now, that wasting them with terrible kludges is ok. > > *shudder* I won't write software like that. I'm betting you won't either. Some years back, I was giving a presentation to our group, explaining why I had coded something in a particular way (because it was faster and more efficient). One of our so-called programmers raised their hand and asked, "Why don't you just run it on a faster processor?" I just stared at her. There's something to be said for learning to write code that had to fit in 64KB (or less). Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 12 16:58:32 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 14:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 12, 11 05:32:22 pm" Message-ID: <201104122158.p3CLwWJV014494@floodgap.com> > > My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then > > drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' > > expectations, or screw up other already running builds. > > "Dependency hell", the hallmark of software developed by clueless > and/or inexperienced people. Unfortunately it has become common. And people wonder why I tend to reinvent the wheel for most of my projects -- it's because I want to avoid such dependencies. This actually wins me users, because it's less things for them to muck around with or maintain. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only abnormality is the inability to love. -- Anais Nin ---------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 12 17:02:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 18:02:30 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA4CBF6.1080505@neurotica.com> On 4/12/11 5:55 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> This is horrible. It can be avoided with some effort. I have a feeling >> a lot of newbies will begin to see this as an acceptable approach, >> though. Lots of people take the attitude that since memory, disk, and >> CPU cycles are plentiful now, that wasting them with terrible kludges >> is ok. >> >> *shudder* I won't write software like that. I'm betting you won't either. > > Some years back, I was giving a presentation to our group, explaining > why I had coded something in a particular way (because it was faster and > more efficient). One of our so-called programmers raised their hand and > asked, "Why don't you just run it on a faster processor?" I just stared > at her. > > There's something to be said for learning to write code that had to fit > in 64KB (or less). Absolutely. These kids today, I just don't know.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 12 17:16:30 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:16:30 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4DA4C3A2.1020307 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then > drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' > expectations, or screw up other already running builds. This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and bailing wire. Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open source. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 12 17:18:25 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:18:25 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <201104122158.p3CLwWJV014494@floodgap.com> References: <201104122158.p3CLwWJV014494@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <201104122158.p3CLwWJV014494 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > > > My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then > > > drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' > > > expectations, or screw up other already running builds. > > > > "Dependency hell", the hallmark of software developed by clueless > > and/or inexperienced people. Unfortunately it has become common. > > And people wonder why I tend to reinvent the wheel for most of my projects -- > it's because I want to avoid such dependencies. This actually wins me users, > because it's less things for them to muck around with or maintain. Dependencies are neither good nor bad, its how you use them that makes it hell or heaven. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 12 17:29:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 18:29:54 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DA4D262.2000606@neurotica.com> On 4/12/11 6:16 PM, Richard wrote: >> My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then >> drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' >> expectations, or screw up other already running builds. > > This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup > a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and > bailing wire. Yes, It's abhorrent. Someday, maybe, hopefully, those kids will grow up. > Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open source. This is, of course, a load of bull. I could claim that every piece of software ever released by Microsoft sucks just because Windows sucks, but that wouldn't be true either. But then I suppose I've failed the simple fact that We Have Been Trolled. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 12 17:30:45 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:30:45 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DA4D295.5060608@bitsavers.org> On 4/12/11 3:16 PM, Richard wrote: > This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup > a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and > bailing wire. > Just make sure it LOOKS pretty to the user. http://www.mixxx.org/ for example the structure of this project makes me want to gag. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 12 17:35:10 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 18:35:10 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference betweenQuick compilers) References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org><4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> <4DA4CBF6.1080505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:02 PM Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference betweenQuick compilers) > On 4/12/11 5:55 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> There's something to be said for learning to write code that had to fit >> in 64KB (or less). > > Absolutely. > > > These kids today, I just don't know.. > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Programmers learn to use what they have available. For old timers stuffing code into 64KB was the goal because that is all they had to use, for people just starting out it may be to use multiple cores and the GPU properly at the same time. I used to love apps that would run from a single floppy, that doesn't do much good these days when computers don't even have a floppy drive anymore and removable media is in the GB range for the cheap low end stuff. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 12 17:39:33 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 18:39:33 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: <201104122158.p3CLwWJV014494@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DA4D4A5.8060207@neurotica.com> On 4/12/11 6:18 PM, Richard wrote: >>>> My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then >>>> drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' >>>> expectations, or screw up other already running builds. >>> >>> "Dependency hell", the hallmark of software developed by clueless >>> and/or inexperienced people. Unfortunately it has become common. >> >> And people wonder why I tend to reinvent the wheel for most of my projects -- >> it's because I want to avoid such dependencies. This actually wins me users, >> because it's less things for them to muck around with or maintain. > > Dependencies are neither good nor bad, its how you use them that makes > it hell or heaven. Oh Dear God. (dave's head explodes) Nothing could be further from the truth. Dependencies constitute overhead in the installation process, and each one, no matter how "handy" it was for the programmer or how benign it was on the programmer's system, is a potential problem source on the user's system. They are to be avoided. Code reuse, of course, is a good thing, if that doctrine is to be believed. But raising the conceptual level of programming against a specific platform by adding layers and layers of libraries to implement higher and higher levels of black-box functionality is a very dangerous path. It becomes a problem when those libraries aren't specifically standardized by the definition of the platform. This can be solved administratively, by deciding that, for example, "WeenieDist Linux v8.62" will always include GTK+ v2.2.5 and never any other release, and then a dependency is declared for that specific OS release, becoming a "meta"-dependency (if I may coin the term) of sorts. But no, the way dependency hierarchies happen in the Linux world (in particular) these days is absolutely terrible, no good can come of it in any way, shape, or form. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 12 17:54:54 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:54:54 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/12/11 3:16 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > In article <4DA4C3A2.1020307 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then >> drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' >> expectations, or screw up other already running builds. > > This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup > a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and > bailing wire. > > Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open source. Some open source is crap, but much of it isn't, and if you compare it with a lot of the retail software out there, is just as good. If you have installed a windows or mac package lately, even much of the commercial stuff drags a bunch of un needed crap along with it. At least with open source software, if something doesn't work as you think it should... You can fix it :) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 12 18:01:14 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:01:14 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA4D295.5060608@bitsavers.org> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4D295.5060608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4DA4D295.5060608 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > Just make sure it LOOKS pretty to the user. > > http://www.mixxx.org/ > > for example > > the structure of this project makes me want to gag. Well, I don't see anything too crazy here, but I only looked at the list of files in the tarball. What specifically is bugging you about it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 12 18:06:23 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:06:23 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Geoffrey Reed writes: > On 4/12/11 3:16 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > > Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open source. > > Some open source is crap, but much of it isn't, [...] I think you have that backwards. Either that or you *really* haven't spent much time looking at the average open source project and only spent time looking at the good ones you heard about by word of mouth. > At least with open source software, if something doesn't work as you think > it should... You can fix it :) Sorry, but I don't buy this either. Most open source software is inscrutable to anyone but the original authors or current maintainers. I say this as someone who has actually tried to follow through on this adage. For anything but the simplest open source, "fixing" it means spending a long time reverse engineering it first before you can fix it, particularly if the problem is more than just dereferencing a null pointer or something stupid like that. I used to be money limited. Now I'm time limited. I don't want to spend my valuable time debugging someone else's open source crap. I want them to fix it from my bug report. Fortunately, most open source software that is worth using has an active maintainer that is more than happy to fix your bugs. For the stuff with no active maintainer, its generally not worth it to reverse engineer their source base in order to fix it yourself. Try fixing something in gcc on your own without having worked on it before, for instance. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 12 18:17:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:17:49 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA4DD9D.5000207@neurotica.com> On 4/12/11 7:06 PM, Richard wrote: >> At least with open source software, if something doesn't work as you think >> it should... You can fix it :) > > Sorry, but I don't buy this either. You don't buy anything that isn't a Microsoft product, though, Richard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 12 18:42:47 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:42:47 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4D295.5060608@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DA4E377.8050708@bitsavers.org> On 4/12/11 4:01 PM, Richard wrote: > What specifically is bugging you about it? Try building it From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Apr 12 21:38:56 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 22:38:56 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <4DA4A3A1.1050601@gmail.com> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> <4DA3B71E.8040609@compsys.to> <4DA4A3A1.1050601@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DA50CC0.80100@compsys.to> >Andrew Warkentin wrote: > >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> [Snip] >> In this case, I agree with the default selection for SIMH, I just >> disagree that there is no VT100 support as an option. > > SIMH supports redirecting the console to a Telnet port using "set > console telnet=". You can connect just about any terminal > emulator you want in this way, so there is no need for SIMH to include > its own terminal emulator. As a Windows DUMMY, in particular for Windows 98SE and Windows XP, could you PLEASE provide some details? Can it be done using just one hardware system running under a Windows OS? If I require a second hardware system, then almost any advantage will be lost. Also, how is the terminal emulator set up to be in-between SIMH and the user via the command: "SET CONSOLE TELNET=" and specifically what environment needs to be set up to allow that command to be entered? A DOS box? What additional files are required? What about multiple terminals in the manner supported by Ersatz-11 (which is a separate issue from the emulation support)? I would rather not be using Windows, but my son provides my support and will only help if I use Windows. He has provided a system for both of his parents, so we don't tend to insist on Unix or some other operating system. Jerome Fine From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 12 22:30:13 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 4/12/11 3:16 PM, "Richard" wrote: > >> >> In article <4DA4C3A2.1020307 at bitsavers.org>, >> Al Kossow writes: >> >>> My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then >>> drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' >>> expectations, or screw up other already running builds. >> >> This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup >> a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and >> bailing wire. >> >> Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open source. > > Some open source is crap, but much of it isn't, and if you compare it with a > lot of the retail software out there, is just as good. If you have > installed a windows or mac package lately, even much of the commercial stuff > drags a bunch of un needed crap along with it. > > At least with open source software, if something doesn't work as you think > it should... You can fix it :) You realize that you're interfering with his "open source is crap!" narrative by dragging out facts 'n stuff, right? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 12 22:36:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 23:36:19 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA51A33.5000009@neurotica.com> On 4/12/11 11:30 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup >>> a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and >>> bailing wire. >>> >>> Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open >>> source. >> >> Some open source is crap, but much of it isn't, and if you compare it >> with a >> lot of the retail software out there, is just as good. If you have >> installed a windows or mac package lately, even much of the commercial >> stuff >> drags a bunch of un needed crap along with it. >> >> At least with open source software, if something doesn't work as you >> think >> it should... You can fix it :) > > You realize that you're interfering with his "open source is crap!" > narrative by dragging out facts 'n stuff, right? :) *snicker* Gene, you're a mean, bad man. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Apr 12 23:11:36 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:11:36 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <4DA50CC0.80100@compsys.to> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> <4DA3B71E.8040609@compsys.to> <4DA4A3A1.1050601@gmail.com> <4DA50CC0.80100@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2011, at 7:38 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Andrew Warkentin wrote: > >> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> [Snip] >>> In this case, I agree with the default selection for SIMH, I just >>> disagree that there is no VT100 support as an option. >> >> SIMH supports redirecting the console to a Telnet port using "set console telnet=". You can connect just about any terminal emulator you want in this way, so there is no need for SIMH to include its own terminal emulator. > > As a Windows DUMMY, in particular for Windows 98SE and > Windows XP, could you PLEASE provide some details? > > Can it be done using just one hardware system running under a > Windows OS? If I require a second hardware system, then > almost any advantage will be lost. Also, how is the terminal > emulator set up to be in-between SIMH and the user via the > command: "SET CONSOLE TELNET=" and > specifically what environment needs to be set up to allow > that command to be entered? A DOS box? What additional > files are required? What about multiple terminals in the manner > supported by Ersatz-11 (which is a separate issue from the > emulation support)? Here's how I would do it (on the same system) on Mac OS X (or probably any Unix work-a-like for that matter): In another terminal window type: "telnet 127.0.0.1:" where is the # you used in the "set console" command above. If 127.0.0.1 doesn't work try the IP address of the machine you're running on (ie the machine that SIMH was started on). This would also allow you to "telnet" into the SIMH session from any system that can reach the IP address (and isn't blocked by a router/firewall). TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 12 23:25:13 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 22:25:13 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Gene Buckle writes: > You realize that you're interfering with his "open source is crap!" I never said open source is crap. If I thought that, why would I recreate manx as an open source project? > narrative by dragging out facts 'n stuff, right? :) While it may be a fact that you *could* fix open source software that's buggy because you have access to the source files, the likelihood of anyone besides the original author doing this is low for most open source software. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 12 23:28:07 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 22:28:07 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA4E377.8050708@bitsavers.org> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4D295.5060608@bitsavers.org> <4DA4E377.8050708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4DA4E377.8050708 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 4/12/11 4:01 PM, Richard wrote: > > > What specifically is bugging you about it? > > Try building it Yeah, it has a fairly large list of dependencies: Mixxx has the following dependencies: - fftw3 - libid3tag - libmad - libogg - libvorbis - libvorbisfile - libsndfile - taglib (New in 1.9!) - PortAudio-v19 - portmidi - QT 4.5+ - scons Everything except Qt and scons is music/codec related. It has all these dependencies because there isn't a "portable" way to deal with MP3/OGG/MIDI/etc. data unless you depend on these libraries. Qt is a PITA to build all by itself, but I've done it. scons is their build tool. On a modern linux you might be able to get by with just sudo apt-get'ing all that crap. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 23:36:04 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 00:36:04 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA4D262.2000606@neurotica.com> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4D262.2000606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA52834.3070904@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then >>> drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' >>> expectations, or screw up other already running builds. >> >> This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup >> a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and >> bailing wire. > > Yes, It's abhorrent. Someday, maybe, hopefully, those kids will grow up. Until then, they should get off our lawn. I avoid hiring people who have this attitude. Peace... Sridhar From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 12 23:41:27 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:41:27 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA52834.3070904@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/12/11 9:36 PM, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then >>>> drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' >>>> expectations, or screw up other already running builds. >>> >>> This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup >>> a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and >>> bailing wire. >> >> Yes, It's abhorrent. Someday, maybe, hopefully, those kids will grow up. > > Until then, they should get off our lawn. > > I avoid hiring people who have this attitude. > > Peace... Sridhar It is what is being taught in schools, especially those using microsoft tools. When I got my dba and client server programming degrees a few years back., the teacher was amazed I could turn most of my projects in on a floppy disk, everyone else had to use a Zip disk. I stripped out all the extra crap that visual studio added so it was only what was needed on the disk to run my programs. Even to the point of building out custom libraries occasionally that had only what was needed to run my app. Why include a fscking 300K library when you are only using 10K of code from it ?!?!?!?! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 12 16:33:44 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 14:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <7f4fe395692df3e698977fd3c4c952ee@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <111075.34594.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 4/12/11, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Look, when you write, "I'll assume Quick C could be > used to write Quick Basic" that says to pretty much everyone > that reads it that you're asking if you can write QB code in > QC.? You never mentioned writing a compiler. > > Actually, while I can see people interpreting it as you > suggest, I first interpreted Chris's statement the way he > intended it, but maybe I'm not pretty much everyone. You'll always make a mistake by allowing for more then 1 meaning Brent. Perhaps > it depends on what 'world' one comes from, e.g. applications > vs. systems/languages. Earth might help. And also recognizing what forum we're participating in. From mike at islwyn.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 17:45:42 2011 From: mike at islwyn.demon.co.uk (Michael Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 23:45:42 +0100 Subject: Stag PPZ EPROM programmer References: 41C4BE2F.6010601@gifford.co.uk Message-ID: <4DA4D616.1060702@islwyn.demon.co.uk> Hi Your post flagged up when I searched for Stag PPZ programmer. I have just bought one of these but no manual :-( I would think these are a lot like me that are looking the manual, have you copied it I would like to buy a copy if you have? Thanx. Regards Mike From oe5ewl at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 03:07:52 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:07:52 +0200 Subject: Prosser/The Art of Digital Design, Laboratory Notes Message-ID: Hi all, I'm currently enjoying to read Prosser and Winkels Book "the art of digital design". Currently I'm right into the last sections. Every now and then theres a "laboratory manual" referenced which should contain more technical stuff about the 2 designs (one is more or less pure ttl and the other is a microcoded design). It would be very interesting to look into this laboratory manuals (I can look up the correct name of the document, don't have the book handy at the moment) as the book itself only contains the basic design ideas and stuff. I'd greatly appreciate any hint where to get this manuals in print or pdf. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 17:32:21 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 15:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: here's your chance to be THE KING Message-ID: <401270.32209.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-Vintage-Computer-Collection-and-MORE-/360358787375?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e70eb92f o man, what a hot heap of vintij stuph! (sorry I couldn't resist. It's been a while at least). that ADAM alone has got to be worth 1 - 1.5 week's pay! And that COCO. Whew. I'm tempted. That's about as much as I have in savings. But rent is due later in the week *sigh* From chrise at pobox.com Wed Apr 13 06:23:59 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 06:23:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <4DA50CC0.80100@compsys.to> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> <4DA3B71E.8040609@compsys.to> <4DA4A3A1.1050601@gmail.com> <4DA50CC0.80100@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20110413112359.GM2239@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (04/12/2011 at 10:38PM -0400), Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I would rather not be using Windows, but my son provides > my support and will only help if I use Windows. He has > provided a system for both of his parents, so we don't > tend to insist on Unix or some other operating system. Why does Mickey Rooney come to mind here? -- Chris Elmquist From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed Apr 13 07:11:54 2011 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:11:54 +1000 Subject: anyone want a defective Tandy 2000? In-Reply-To: <617887.33395.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <617887.33395.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004c01cbf9d3$fb1871d0$f1495570$@on.net> Whee are you located ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Advanced Imaging e: webmaster at advancedimaging.com.au w: www.advancedimaging.com.au m: 0418 815 527 ++++++++++ http://au.linkedin.com/in/krparker -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Tuesday, 12 April 2011 10:26 To: talk Subject: anyone want a defective Tandy 2000? free but for postage both have keyboards and the color graphics card, 2 floppies each. Don't ask me what's wrong, I haven't looked at them, don't have the time nor inclination right now. 07716 From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 08:04:17 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Office System install blues.. In-Reply-To: References: <317682.35953.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> --- On Sun, 4/10/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> >>> If I try to repair the disk, it tells me to contact a >>> service specialist and mentions error 200/662. There's >>> no error 200 listed in the Lisa repair manual, but 662 is >>> ProFile parity error. It's hard to believe that, since >>> the drive passes format and certify on an Apple /// and >>> MacWorksXL on the Lisa has no problem with it. >>> >> Does the Profile pass the test when running LisaTest? > > No, it fails under LisaTest with the same odd symptoms: No sign that it's > even trying to access the disk! Just goes away for a a bit and announces a > fail. I never see the ProFile light flicker. > > I'm starting to wonder if Lisa OS has stricter timing or perhaps checks > parity while MacOS does not. Update: I took the plunge (so to speak) and soaked the motherboard and I/O board in vinegar for a few hours to neutralize any remaining battery leakage (had previously cleaned it with PCB flux solvent). This seems to have done the trick, so there must have been some crud embedded where I could not see it. LisaTest is now happy with the ProFile. Onward to system installation (as soon as I receive some disk copies that are on their way). What I gather from this is that Lisa OS and LisaTest are far fussier in their interaction with the ProFile than MacWorksXL. Perhaps the line carrying the parity bit was not making contact and MacWorks wasn't checking it? The edge connectors on the rear of the chassis have been getting progressively flakier as I've inserted and removed the motherboard and card-cage. I'm going to have to take a divergence and replace the wiring harnesses before going any further. It appears that the CRT will need to come out in order to do this - fun! Finally, does anyone know if there are later copies of the Profile formatter EPROM floating around? I have one that works on 5M ProFiles, but the formatter utility always complains about the version being backlevel. At least one site on the web shows this procedure with no complaints, so someone must have it. Would appreciate a copy or leads to anyone who can help. Steve -- From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 13 08:03:37 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 06:03:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA51A33.5000009@neurotica.com> References: <4DA51A33.5000009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/12/11 11:30 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup >>>> a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and >>>> bailing wire. >>>> >>>> Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open >>>> source. >>> >>> Some open source is crap, but much of it isn't, and if you compare it >>> with a >>> lot of the retail software out there, is just as good. If you have >>> installed a windows or mac package lately, even much of the commercial >>> stuff >>> drags a bunch of un needed crap along with it. >>> >>> At least with open source software, if something doesn't work as you >>> think >>> it should... You can fix it :) >> >> You realize that you're interfering with his "open source is crap!" >> narrative by dragging out facts 'n stuff, right? :) > > *snicker* Gene, you're a mean, bad man. ;) > Moi? :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 13 08:08:28 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 06:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Gene Buckle writes: > >> You realize that you're interfering with his "open source is crap!" > > I never said open source is crap. If I thought that, why would I > recreate manx as an open source project? > That was the thinly-veiled implication. If memory serves, manx is a documentation repository isn't it? While it can fall under the heading "open source", it's not exactly a direct parallel to something like FlightGear or Mozilla, now is it? >> narrative by dragging out facts 'n stuff, right? :) > > While it may be a fact that you *could* fix open source software > that's buggy because you have access to the source files, the > likelihood of anyone besides the original author doing this is low for > most open source software. > Just because you and your colleagues aren't doing this, doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't happen. It just means it doesn't happen within your particular theatre of operations. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 13 08:44:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:44:48 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA5A8D0.2020500@neurotica.com> On 4/13/11 12:25 AM, Richard wrote: >> narrative by dragging out facts 'n stuff, right? :) > > While it may be a fact that you *could* fix open source software > that's buggy because you have access to the source files, the > likelihood of anyone besides the original author doing this is low for > most open source software. I've been doing it for 20+ years, as has pretty much everyone I know. Where have you been? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 13 08:45:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:45:49 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> On 4/13/11 12:41 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>>>> My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then >>>>> drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' >>>>> expectations, or screw up other already running builds. >>>> >>>> This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup >>>> a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and >>>> bailing wire. >>> >>> Yes, It's abhorrent. Someday, maybe, hopefully, those kids will grow up. >> >> Until then, they should get off our lawn. >> >> I avoid hiring people who have this attitude. > > It is what is being taught in schools, especially those using microsoft > tools. When I got my dba and client server programming degrees a few years > back., the teacher was amazed I could turn most of my projects in on a > floppy disk, everyone else had to use a Zip disk. I stripped out all the > extra crap that visual studio added so it was only what was needed on the > disk to run my programs. Even to the point of building out custom libraries > occasionally that had only what was needed to run my app. Why include a > fscking 300K library when you are only using 10K of code from it ?!?!?!?! If someone tried to feed me that garbage in a school, I'd demand my money back. Bravo for trimming the fat from your stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shumaker at att.net Wed Apr 13 09:07:06 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:07:06 -0700 Subject: Prosser/The Art of Digital Design, Laboratory Notes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA5AE0A.3090109@att.net> Amazon shows an "Instructors Manual".... http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Design-Introduction-INSTRUCTORS-MANUAL/dp/0130465992/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302703514&sr=1-2 On 4/13/2011 1:07 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm currently enjoying to read Prosser and Winkels Book "the art of > digital design". Currently I'm right into the last sections. Every now > and then theres a "laboratory manual" referenced which should contain > more technical stuff about the 2 designs (one is more or less pure ttl > and the other is a microcoded design). > > It would be very interesting to look into this laboratory manuals (I > can look up the correct name of the document, don't have the book > handy at the moment) as the book itself only contains the basic design > ideas and stuff. I'd greatly appreciate any hint where to get this > manuals in print or pdf. > > Regards, > Wolfgang > > > -- > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > Operating System Collector > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > Homepage: www.eichberger.org > > From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Apr 13 09:35:07 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:35:07 -0400 Subject: Prosser/The Art of Digital Design, Laboratory Notes In-Reply-To: <4DA5AE0A.3090109@att.net> References: <4DA5AE0A.3090109@att.net> Message-ID: <1302705307.27714.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 07:07 -0700, steve shumaker wrote: > Amazon shows an "Instructors Manual".... > > http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Design-Introduction-INSTRUCTORS-MANUAL/dp/0130465992/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302703514&sr=1-2 > > I took a class based on that book (Prosser himself was the instructor). as I recall, there was a lab manual which had the state machine flow chart and various other tidbits -- some unrelated to the PDP 8 since the 2nd semester of that class we build a M6809 machine running FLEX and the project was either to interface a floppy drive or do a project of our own design (I built a memory mapper of sorts) In any case, I may still have the manual around, I'll look for it tonight. Brian > > On 4/13/2011 1:07 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I'm currently enjoying to read Prosser and Winkels Book "the art of > > digital design". Currently I'm right into the last sections. Every now > > and then theres a "laboratory manual" referenced which should contain > > more technical stuff about the 2 designs (one is more or less pure ttl > > and the other is a microcoded design). > > > > It would be very interesting to look into this laboratory manuals (I > > can look up the correct name of the document, don't have the book > > handy at the moment) as the book itself only contains the basic design > > ideas and stuff. I'd greatly appreciate any hint where to get this > > manuals in print or pdf. > > > > Regards, > > Wolfgang > > > > > > -- > > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > > Operating System Collector > > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > > Homepage: www.eichberger.org > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 13 07:25:40 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:25:40 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <20110413112359.GM2239@n0jcf.net> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> <4DA3B71E.8040609@compsys.to> <4DA4A3A1.1050601@gmail.com> <4DA50CC0.80100@compsys.to> <20110413112359.GM2239@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <201104131504.p3DF3t2x073679@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 06:23 AM 4/13/2011, Chris Elmquist wrote: >On Tuesday (04/12/2011 at 10:38PM -0400), Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> I would rather not be using Windows, but my son provides >> my support and will only help if I use Windows. He has >> provided a system for both of his parents, so we don't >> tend to insist on Unix or some other operating system. > >Why does Mickey Rooney come to mind here? Kids these days. You mean Mickey "Hey kids, let's put on a show in the barn"? Or Andy "Didya ever notice shoes? Everybody wears them"? - John From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Apr 13 10:05:02 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:05:02 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> On 4/12/2011 5:55 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > Some years back, I was giving a presentation to our group, explaining > why I had coded something in a particular way (because it was faster and > more efficient). One of our so-called programmers raised their hand and > asked, "Why don't you just run it on a faster processor?" I just stared > at her. We were asked at my local university not all that long ago, by an otherwise bright CS professor, "What was the easiest way to speed up your application?" We raised our hands and mentioned several ways of optimizing the code. His answer was "just wait, and the processors will get faster, so your application will run faster." While easiest != best, I was surprised(shocked?) that this was being taught to pretty impressionable youth. I will say that faster processors let us get away with using higher level scripting languages which are easier to write, abstract away unnecessary details, and have a working piece of code faster. There's no need to write it in assembly or otherwise, and have it execute in .00004 seconds when a scripting language that runs the process in 4 seconds is perfectly acceptable. Yes, of course it's not scalable, but maybe that's unneeded. The first incarnation of my external amiga floppy drive controller that was implemented with a microcontroller used their flavor of basic for a large portion of the code, but then assembly where time critical functions were done. I used assembly for the UART, and for the portion of code snags bits off the drive and jams them into a serial FRAM. Parallax, the microcontroller manufacturer, had written their SXB (basic) to compile the basic code to assembly, and then used the regular assembler to finish the job. At any point, you could hit a keystroke and view the assembler that your basic code had yielded. You could embed assembly inline with the rest of the basic code, and it all worked pretty neat. Keith From blkline at attglobal.net Wed Apr 13 10:26:43 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:26:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <20110413112359.GM2239@n0jcf.net> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> <4DA3B71E.8040609@compsys.to> <4DA4A3A1.1050601@gmail.com> <4DA50CC0.80100@compsys.to> <20110413112359.GM2239@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DA5C0B3.5000002@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/13/2011 07:23 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Tuesday (04/12/2011 at 10:38PM -0400), Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> I would rather not be using Windows, but my son provides >> my support and will only help if I use Windows. He has >> provided a system for both of his parents, so we don't >> tend to insist on Unix or some other operating system. > > Why does Mickey Rooney come to mind here? > Forcing you to use Windows? This clearly is a sign of parent abuse! Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFNpcCzCFu3bIiwtTARAr3BAJ0ZgBqcu6GDC92+Dxw00KwnpZW6ugCdHoU8 gzqsnAwvJUFtYUnmVva2d2I= =h3l3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From oe5ewl at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 10:55:57 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 17:55:57 +0200 Subject: Prosser/The Art of Digital Design, Laboratory Notes In-Reply-To: <1302705307.27714.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <4DA5AE0A.3090109@att.net> <1302705307.27714.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: it seems the amazon link is the 1st edition of the book - but i may be wrong. thanks in advance brian for looking. regards, wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/4/13 Brian Wheeler : > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 07:07 -0700, steve shumaker wrote: >> Amazon shows an "Instructors Manual".... >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Design-Introduction-INSTRUCTORS-MANUAL/dp/0130465992/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302703514&sr=1-2 >> >> > > I took a class based on that book (Prosser himself was the instructor). > as I recall, there was a lab manual which had the state machine flow > chart and various other tidbits -- some unrelated to the PDP 8 since the > 2nd semester of that class we build a M6809 machine running FLEX and the > project was either to interface a floppy drive or do a project of our > own design (I built a memory mapper of sorts) > > In any case, I may still have the manual around, I'll look for it > tonight. > > Brian > > > >> >> On 4/13/2011 1:07 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: >> > Hi all, >> > >> > I'm currently enjoying to read Prosser and Winkels Book "the art of >> > digital design". Currently I'm right into the last sections. Every now >> > and then theres a "laboratory manual" referenced which should contain >> > more technical stuff about the 2 designs (one is more or less pure ttl >> > and the other is a microcoded design). >> > >> > It would be very interesting to look into this laboratory manuals (I >> > can look up the correct name of the document, don't have the book >> > handy at the moment) as the book itself only contains the basic design >> > ideas and stuff. I'd greatly appreciate any hint where to get this >> > manuals in print or pdf. >> > >> > Regards, >> > ? Wolfgang >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL >> > Operating System Collector >> > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com >> > Homepage: www.eichberger.org >> > >> > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 13 11:01:39 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:01:39 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Gene Buckle writes: > On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Richard wrote: > > > > > In article , > > Gene Buckle writes: > > > >> You realize that you're interfering with his "open source is crap!" > > > > I never said open source is crap. If I thought that, why would I > > recreate manx as an open source project? > > > That was the thinly-veiled implication. *Most* open source code has crap quality. If you don't believe me, then start browsing a statistical sample of stuff on any of the major open source hosting sites like sourceforge, etc. Don't browse by what's most popular or what's most downloaded, because that will focus you on only the stuff that's actually used and maintained, which is a very small portion of all open source software projects. There's nothing really different about open source here than it was for ZIP files of source code in the BBS days. Most of that stuff was crap too, at least from the perspective of reading/understanding/modifying the code. The idea of open source is not crap. I'm essentially restating Sturgeon's Law as applied to open source software. > If memory serves, manx is a > documentation repository isn't it? Its a web application. > >> narrative by dragging out facts 'n stuff, right? :) > > > > While it may be a fact that you *could* fix open source software > > that's buggy because you have access to the source files, the > > likelihood of anyone besides the original author doing this is low for > > most open source software. > > > Just because you and your colleagues aren't doing this, doesn't > necessarily mean it doesn't happen. It just means it doesn't happen > within your particular theatre of operations. :) I'm all for open source, but for serious bugs beyond a simple one-liner fix (which I have contributed on a number of occasions) its unlikely that anyone but the owners/maintainers of an open source package are going to fix it. Just because you could, in theory, fix the bug with the source doesn't say anything about the probability of that actually happening. With larger code bases and more serious bugs, I'm willing to guess that the probability is effectively zero for most users. I think the open source advocates make too much of this and in practice, unless you are a member of the team that works on that open source project, I don't think it happens as much as advocates like to believe. If you want to make the claim that it does happen with regularity, show me some data to prove your claim. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 13 11:31:48 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:31:48 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <4DA5BB9E.1030907 at verizon.net>, Keith Monahan writes: > We were asked at my local university not all that long ago, by an > otherwise bright CS professor, "What was the easiest way to speed up > your application?" We raised our hands and mentioned several ways of > optimizing the code. His answer was "just wait, and the processors will > get faster, so your application will run faster." This isn't so true anymore, anyway. Instead of increasing single core speeds, CPUs are incorporating more processor cores. In order to automagically get speedups now your code has to be parallelizable by the compiler tool chain. Most code isn't structured this way. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 13 13:32:09 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110413112804.H61701@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Keith Monahan wrote: > We were asked at my local university not all that long ago, by an > otherwise bright CS professor, "What was the easiest way to speed up > your application?" We raised our hands and mentioned several ways of > optimizing the code. His answer was "just wait, and the processors will > get faster, so your application will run faster." I've been waiting and waiting, but THIS Windoze machine keeps getting slower! Alas, reliance on Moore's law is becoming common. It was recognized and accepted 25 years ago at MICROS~1. > no need to write it in assembly or otherwise, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 12:57:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:57:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 12, 11 01:00:01 pm Message-ID: > As a student, I was on the tail end of the keypunch/batch era. It was > painful but one good thing it did was instill the notion of doing the > design and coding correctly up-front, and forcing one to think in I will most definitely agree that that's a Good Thing. People who program by saying 'Oh, let's invert that condition and see if it fixes it, lets make that look run one more time, perhaps there should be a semicolon here...' produce IMHO unreliable programs. They don't understnad why they work (not really), and actually, moch of the time they don't really work. It's the same IMHO with hardware. I still design the old-fashioned way with pen and paper. But it is my aim 9and something I achieve most of the time) for the design to work first time when soldered up. If it doesn't, then I think before changing anything. I've seen so-called designers prototyping circuits (or using a CAD system) and saying things like 'Oh, I'll try inverting the clock to those flip-flops' or 'I'll try changing that NAND gate to A NOR gate'. Needless to say they don't really undersntad their own design amd it rarely works reliably. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 13:05:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 19:05:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: difference between Quick compilers In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Apr 12, 11 01:25:57 pm Message-ID: > Then there's the assinine requirement that you give a fine grained > accounting for your time resulting in the choice - tell them about what Or give an estimate of how long a piece of research will take. Darn it, if I knew that, it wouldn't be research... I am always tempted to give an answer of tyhe form '10 years, 1 week plus or minus 10 years'. In other words, I may do it in a week, itr make take 20 years. I don't know until I've done it. I am reminded of a story attributed to the Duke of Wellington. 'Please find enclosed a complete inventory of the weapons, ammunition, tents, tent pegs, clothing, footwear... in use by His Majesty's forces in France at the present time. I regret that there are 2 discrepancies : 2lb of straweberry jam cannot be located, and the officers mess fund is deficient by sixpence. I will investigate these matters without delay. Could you, however, answer one question. Am I in France to defeat Napoleon's forces, or to provide lists for clerks in Whitehall. I will do either to the best of my abilities, but I am unable to do both' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 13:44:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 19:44:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Apr 12, 11 04:16:30 pm Message-ID: > > My pet peeve are projects that drag in dozens of libraries, which then > > drag in dozens more. Of course, these then conflict with other projects' > > expectations, or screw up other already running builds. > > This is the new "script kiddie" way to make open source. Just mashup > a bunch of libraries and bind them together with chewing gum and > bailing wire. It's much the same as the modern method of hardware design : Just thro a couple of over-complicated ICs onto the circuit board and link them together. Don't botyher to actually undertand what you are doing, or even to think about the problem (if you did the latter, you'd probably relaise it could be solved with a couple of discrete transistors ;-)) > Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open source. Whereas with commercial software you most certainly do not get what you pay for. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Apr 13 15:01:33 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:01:33 +0100 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quickcompilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36@ANTONIOPC> Richard [legalize at xmission.com] wrote: > *Most* open source code has crap quality. If you don't > believe me, then start browsing a statistical sample of stuff > on any of the major open source hosting sites like > sourceforge, etc. Don't browse by what's most popular or > what's most downloaded, because that will focus you on only > the stuff that's actually used and maintained, which is a > very small portion of all open source software projects. If you mean "a significant amount of stuff out there is essentially unmaintainable" you are almost certainly correct. But why is that such a big deal? Surely you only care about the things you actually use (or want to use). Even if you depend on project Y and it's too big for you to fix a bug that matters to you, you should be able to find someone who'll fix it for you for money. That's the advantage over commercial software: you at least have the option of having your specific itch scratched (assuming it really does matter enough to you). With commercial software you generally get new versions on a regular basis but you are not likely to get fixes for the bugs that matter to you. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 13 15:07:51 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Really? Is Gimp better quality than Photoshop or Aperture? If you were doing photo work for a living would you bet your paycheck on it? I wouldn't. You may not always get what you pay for with commercial software, but there are plenty of instances where it is true. There are plenty of instances of half-baked OSS solutions like Gimp to compete with commercial apps. ________________________________ From: Tony Duell To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 1:44:02 PM Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick > Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open source. Whereas with commercial software you most certainly do not get what you pay for. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 15:15:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:15:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at Apr 13, 11 01:07:51 pm Message-ID: > > Really? Is Gimp better quality than Photoshop or Aperture? If you were doing I have no idea. As is well-known, I do not own a digital camera. > photo work for a living would you bet your paycheck on it? I wouldn't. You may Yes I would, actually. Having the source code means I can fix it (or find somebody to fix it) if soemthing goes wrong. I would much rather had that than have to do battle with some commercial software company (I have had the misfortune of doingthat a number of time). Give me the choiuce between the ability to fix something myself (having the source code, shcemaitcs, etc) or unlimited manufactuer 'support' and I will pick the former every time. And I suspect I will have many fewer problems I've had plenty of problems with commercial C compilers, I've never had one with gcc.... -tony From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 13 15:35:54 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:35:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <803452.82367.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Well, I am no expert when it comes to image manipulation, but I like to think I'm a decent photographer (both film and digital). I've messed around with all three of these applications, and there is no comparison. Both Aperture and Photoshop are worlds better. I find it hard to believe that Gimp will ever be on par with either one. Further, not everyone has the skill (or desire) to dink with the source when they run into a problem. There's that whole time = money factor, and even if I do have the skill to fix a bug on OSS, it might be fruitless when I can buy the commercial app that's better and be done with it. ________________________________ From: Tony Duell To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 3:15:35 PM Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick > > Really? Is Gimp better quality than Photoshop or Aperture? If you were doing I have no idea. As is well-known, I do not own a digital camera. > photo work for a living would you bet your paycheck on it? I wouldn't. You may Yes I would, actually. Having the source code means I can fix it (or find somebody to fix it) if soemthing goes wrong. I would much rather had that than have to do battle with some commercial software company (I have had the misfortune of doingthat a number of time). Give me the choiuce between the ability to fix something myself (having the source code, shcemaitcs, etc) or unlimited manufactuer 'support' and I will pick the former every time. And I suspect I will have many fewer problems I've had plenty of problems with commercial C compilers, I've never had one with gcc.... -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 13 15:47:09 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <803452.82367.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from geoffrey oltmans at "Apr 13, 11 01:35:54 pm" Message-ID: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com> > Both Aperture and Photoshop are worlds better. I have to agree. Photoshop is much better than the GIMP, even though the GIMP certainly has the price advantage. Couldn't work without it. But that doesn't mean that the GIMP isn't useful for people with lower-end needs, of course. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The reader this message encounters not failing to understand is cursed. ---- From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 13 15:53:22 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com> References: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <705162.23906.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Sure, sure... you can sacrifice and use it, but for anyone who needs it for professional work would be foolish to use it over one of the commercial offerings. ________________________________ From: Cameron Kaiser To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 3:47:09 PM Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick > Both Aperture and Photoshop are worlds better. I have to agree. Photoshop is much better than the GIMP, even though the GIMP certainly has the price advantage. Couldn't work without it. But that doesn't mean that the GIMP isn't useful for people with lower-end needs, of course. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The reader this message encounters not failing to understand is cursed. ---- From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 13 16:32:19 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:32:19 -0700 Subject: here's your chance to be THE KING In-Reply-To: <401270.32209.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4/11/11 3:32 PM, "Chris M" wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-Vintage-Computer-Collection-and-MORE-/360358787375?pt > =LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e70eb92f > > o man, what a hot heap of vintij stuph! (sorry I couldn't resist. It's been a > while at least). > > that ADAM alone has got to be worth 1 - 1.5 week's pay! And that COCO. Whew. > > I'm tempted. That's about as much as I have in savings. But rent is due later > in the week *sigh* > Makes me miss my tandy machines. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 13 16:33:47 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:33:47 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA5A8D0.2020500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/11 6:44 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 4/13/11 12:25 AM, Richard wrote: >>> narrative by dragging out facts 'n stuff, right? :) >> >> While it may be a fact that you *could* fix open source software >> that's buggy because you have access to the source files, the >> likelihood of anyone besides the original author doing this is low for >> most open source software. > > I've been doing it for 20+ years, as has pretty much everyone I know. > Where have you been? > > -Dave Speed of fix in my case is directly proportional to how much good beer or hard cider I sip whilst examining code :) From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 13 16:34:42 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:34:42 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/11 6:45 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >> >> It is what is being taught in schools, especially those using microsoft >> tools. When I got my dba and client server programming degrees a few years >> back., the teacher was amazed I could turn most of my projects in on a >> floppy disk, everyone else had to use a Zip disk. I stripped out all the >> extra crap that visual studio added so it was only what was needed on the >> disk to run my programs. Even to the point of building out custom libraries >> occasionally that had only what was needed to run my app. Why include a >> fscking 300K library when you are only using 10K of code from it ?!?!?!?! > > If someone tried to feed me that garbage in a school, I'd demand my > money back. Bravo for trimming the fat from your stuff. > > -Dave I also zipped up my resulting code, it's amazing how well microsoft generated code can compress :) From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 13 16:39:40 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:39:40 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/11 1:07 PM, "geoffrey oltmans" wrote: > Really? Is Gimp better quality than Photoshop or Aperture? If you were doing > photo work for a living would you bet your paycheck on it? I wouldn't. You may > not always get what you pay for with commercial software, but there are plenty > of instances where it is true. There are plenty of instances of half-baked OSS > solutions like Gimp to compete with commercial apps. > While Gimp is not the most polished image manipulation app out there, it is hardly unusable. Currently Gimp reminds me, functionality wise of photoshop from 5-7 years ago, it certainly is faster and far less bloated than the current release of Photoshop (which I wouldn't use except I got in an auction lot as I couldn't afford it). I've used Gimp, and the biggest problem that others (and I have had) is that it does not have native support for the "raw" format that my camera puts out. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 13 16:50:51 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <945637.73175.qm@web83901.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> You're more forgiving than I am. :) It's certainly not unusable, but I'd say it lacks the polish, featureset, and usability of Photoshop....even 5-7 years ago. ________________________________ From: Geoffrey Reed To: cctalk Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 4:39:40 PM Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick On 4/13/11 1:07 PM, "geoffrey oltmans" wrote: > Really? Is Gimp better quality than Photoshop or Aperture? If you were doing > photo work for a living would you bet your paycheck on it? I wouldn't. You may > not always get what you pay for with commercial software, but there are plenty > of instances where it is true. There are plenty of instances of half-baked OSS > solutions like Gimp to compete with commercial apps. > While Gimp is not the most polished image manipulation app out there, it is hardly unusable. Currently Gimp reminds me, functionality wise of photoshop from 5-7 years ago, it certainly is faster and far less bloated than the current release of Photoshop (which I wouldn't use except I got in an auction lot as I couldn't afford it). I've used Gimp, and the biggest problem that others (and I have had) is that it does not have native support for the "raw" format that my camera puts out. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 13 17:33:17 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:33:17 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quickcompilers) In-Reply-To: <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36@ANTONIOPC> References: <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: In article <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36 at ANTONIOPC>, writes: > If you mean "a significant amount of stuff out there is essentially > unmaintainable" > you are almost certainly correct. But why is that such a big deal? Its not a big deal to me personally, but its important to keep in mind when people make the claim that *most* open source code is high quality. It isn't. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 13 20:01:40 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 18:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110413180103.M68853@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Speed of fix in my case is directly proportional to how much good beer or > hard cider I sip whilst examining code :) My error rate goes up with ethanol. From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Apr 13 21:19:27 2011 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:19:27 -0400 Subject: HP LaserJet 4100 rear cover Message-ID: Hi folks, I just acquired an old HP 4100N laser printer that is missing the rear dust cover. A drawing of the missing cover from the user manual is here: http://home.earthlink.net/~jdbryan/dropbox/hp4100-cover.png This cover attaches at the bottom of the rear of the machine and covers the back end of paper tray #2 and the fuser assembly. It's present if the printer does not have the duplexing attachment. Could someone who has one of these printers please let me know the part number that's molded into the inside of the cover, so that I may locate a replacement? The cover number probably will be of the form "RBn-nnnn". Beware that there will also be part numbers present for the plastic resin used in making the cover (e.g., "Cycoloy C6600-GY8070" or "HP Material PN 4093-2825"), at least based on the other covers on the machine. Thanks! -- Dave From shumaker at att.net Wed Apr 13 23:10:50 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:10:50 -0700 Subject: HP LaserJet 4100 rear cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA673CA.5040307@att.net> can't quite tell from your description exactly what you need since there were variations... but here is what HP reports. scroll down ~2/3s and look for "external case parts" it has diagrams and part numbers http://partsurfer.hp.com/Search.aspx?searchText=c8049a ss On 4/13/2011 7:19 PM, J. David Bryan wrote: > Hi folks, > > I just acquired an old HP 4100N laser printer that is missing the rear > dust cover. A drawing of the missing cover from the user manual is here: > > http://home.earthlink.net/~jdbryan/dropbox/hp4100-cover.png > > This cover attaches at the bottom of the rear of the machine and covers the > back end of paper tray #2 and the fuser assembly. It's present if the > printer does not have the duplexing attachment. > > Could someone who has one of these printers please let me know the part > number that's molded into the inside of the cover, so that I may locate a > replacement? The cover number probably will be of the form "RBn-nnnn". > Beware that there will also be part numbers present for the plastic resin > used in making the cover (e.g., "Cycoloy C6600-GY8070" or "HP Material PN > 4093-2825"), at least based on the other covers on the machine. > > Thanks! > > -- Dave > > > From shumaker at att.net Wed Apr 13 23:15:50 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 21:15:50 -0700 Subject: HP LaserJet 4100 rear cover In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA674F6.201@att.net> from comparing your pic with the partsurfer diagram, I'd call it: RB2-4827-000CN http://partsurfer.hp.com/Search.aspx?searchText=c8049a ss On 4/13/2011 7:19 PM, J. David Bryan wrote: > Hi folks, > > I just acquired an old HP 4100N laser printer that is missing the rear > dust cover. A drawing of the missing cover from the user manual is here: > > http://home.earthlink.net/~jdbryan/dropbox/hp4100-cover.png > > This cover attaches at the bottom of the rear of the machine and covers the > back end of paper tray #2 and the fuser assembly. It's present if the > printer does not have the duplexing attachment. > > Could someone who has one of these printers please let me know the part > number that's molded into the inside of the cover, so that I may locate a > replacement? The cover number probably will be of the form "RBn-nnnn". > Beware that there will also be part numbers present for the plastic resin > used in making the cover (e.g., "Cycoloy C6600-GY8070" or "HP Material PN > 4093-2825"), at least based on the other covers on the machine. > > Thanks! > > -- Dave > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 14 08:08:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:08:55 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <705162.23906.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com> <705162.23906.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com> On 4/13/11 4:53 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Sure, sure... you can sacrifice and use it, but for anyone who needs it for > professional work would be foolish to use it over one of the commercial > offerings. Really? Anyone, in all cases of professional work (whatever that means) would automatically be foolish to use something that's free over paying hundreds of dollars for something that accomplishes about 95% of the same tasks? I don't think I've heard a more concise description of "well-trained American consumer" in my life. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 14 08:10:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:10:19 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DA6F23B.7090106@neurotica.com> On 4/13/11 4:07 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Really? Is Gimp better quality than Photoshop or Aperture? If you were doing > photo work for a living would you bet your paycheck on it? I wouldn't. You may > not always get what you pay for with commercial software, but there are plenty > of instances where it is true. There are plenty of instances of half-baked OSS > solutions like Gimp to compete with commercial apps. And "commercial" automatically means "good", "complete" and "debugged", huh? Wow. You've not used much commercial software, have you. This is becoming quite the entertaining thread. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 14 08:23:46 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:23:46 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick References: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com><705162.23906.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9E731AECA5EE466CAF3CF3454C2652A2@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 9:08 AM Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick > > Really? Anyone, in all cases of professional work (whatever that means) > would automatically be foolish to use something that's free over paying > hundreds of dollars for something that accomplishes about 95% of the same > tasks? > > I don't think I've heard a more concise description of "well-trained > American consumer" in my life. > > -Dave > For important work people need 100% of a task done to get paid. Mostly that means using the standard software for that industry. A high proportion of people don't need all the features most high end apps have, or could use a much older version (which can be found cheaply or free) to get the job done for personal tasks. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 14 08:24:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:24:56 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quickcompilers) In-Reply-To: References: <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4DA6F5A8.3000103@neurotica.com> On 4/13/11 6:33 PM, Richard wrote: >> If you mean "a significant amount of stuff out there is essentially >> unmaintainable" >> you are almost certainly correct. But why is that such a big deal? > > Its not a big deal to me personally, but its important to keep in mind > when people make the claim that *most* open source code is high > quality. > > It isn't. Provide proof of this assertion, or it's bull. (Hey, if you can fall back on that, knowing full well that people would rather just give up rather than do your research for you when it's well-known that you've already made up your mind anyway, so can the rest of us!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 14 08:34:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:34:05 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <9E731AECA5EE466CAF3CF3454C2652A2@dell8300> References: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com><705162.23906.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com> <9E731AECA5EE466CAF3CF3454C2652A2@dell8300> Message-ID: <4DA6F7CD.5010303@neurotica.com> On 4/14/11 9:23 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Really? Anyone, in all cases of professional work (whatever that >> means) would automatically be foolish to use something that's free >> over paying hundreds of dollars for something that accomplishes about >> 95% of the same tasks? >> >> I don't think I've heard a more concise description of "well-trained >> American consumer" in my life. > > For important work people need 100% of a task done to get paid. Mostly > that means using the standard software for that industry. > > A high proportion of people don't need all the features most high end > apps have, or could use a much older version (which can be found cheaply > or free) to get the job done for personal tasks. But only for "personal" tasks? Is your argument really that 100% of Photoshop's esoteric and rarely-used features are always needed for every job that is considered "professional" (again, whatever that means), and for that reason, anyone who attempts to do anything without it is "foolish"? (yes, not YOUR words, I know) Seriously? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 14 08:32:23 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 06:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com> References: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com> <705162.23906.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/13/11 4:53 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> Sure, sure... you can sacrifice and use it, but for anyone who needs it for >> professional work would be foolish to use it over one of the commercial >> offerings. > > Really? Anyone, in all cases of professional work (whatever that means) > would automatically be foolish to use something that's free over paying > hundreds of dollars for something that accomplishes about 95% of the same > tasks? > > I don't think I've heard a more concise description of "well-trained > American consumer" in my life. > I bet he can't balance a biscuit on the end of his nose... :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 14 08:38:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:38:23 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: References: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com> <705162.23906.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA6F8CF.3020101@neurotica.com> On 4/14/11 9:32 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Really? Anyone, in all cases of professional work (whatever that >> means) would automatically be foolish to use something that's free >> over paying hundreds of dollars for something that accomplishes about >> 95% of the same tasks? >> >> I don't think I've heard a more concise description of "well-trained >> American consumer" in my life. >> > I bet he can't balance a biscuit on the end of his nose... :) You're being a mean, bad man again. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Apr 14 08:49:28 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 06:49:28 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <4DA6F23B.7090106@neurotica.com> References: <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4DA6F23B.7090106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA6FB68.1080006@mail.msu.edu> On 4/14/2011 6:10 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is becoming quite the entertaining thread. > > -Dave > I beg to differ. I think I've seen this thread before, is the list server working OK? - Josh From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 14 08:55:50 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 06:55:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <4DA6FB68.1080006@mail.msu.edu> References: <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4DA6F23B.7090106@neurotica.com> <4DA6FB68.1080006@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Apr 2011, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 4/14/2011 6:10 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> This is becoming quite the entertaining thread. >> >> -Dave >> > > I beg to differ. I think I've seen this thread before, is the list server > working OK? > It's known as Deja Moo - the sense you've seen this bullshit somewhere before... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 14 09:11:03 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:11:03 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick References: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com><705162.23906.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com><9E731AECA5EE466CAF3CF3454C2652A2@dell8300> <4DA6F7CD.5010303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <44F2667D5E5849F4B88CFBF22B6E2FB4@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 9:34 AM Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick > Is your argument really that 100% of Photoshop's esoteric and > rarely-used features are always needed for every job that is considered > "professional" (again, whatever that means), and for that reason, anyone > who attempts to do anything without it is "foolish"? (yes, not YOUR > words, I know) > > Seriously? > > -Dave Its been years since I looked into it, but Photoshop had functions needed in the printing industry (color separation and calibration, some other stuff I don't recall) that GIMP just did not have or do well. There are many tools that have a set of paint brushes, 100's of layers of REDO functions etc, but the integration of the software with manufacturing (first step to end product) is where opensource tends to fall apart in business. Somebody editing photos would not need those special functions to crop a pic and even out the color balance, the crapy software that comes with their scanner or camera can do that just fine. If you have noticed some major commercial software venders have caught on to this and have released free basic tools (NERO burning ROM for one) where they cannot compete with free stuff like active ISO burner or CDBurnerXP for basic tasks. Those companies then sell the enhanced software that will do authoring of DVDs and other special tasks while trying to get the people using the free stuff to upgrade. Personally I like having a WELL DOCUMENTED STANDARD file format so you can use multiple apps to do work and the end user can then use whatever they need to finish the project. I had problems in the distant past with converting stuff from different CAD software packages where something always needed corrected in conversions even simple stuff like fonts (more work and proofing). It took how many years just to get a standard office suite file format which should have been simple. To sum it up when opensource projects end up being the leader instead of just cloning something popular (95% of the way) then people in business will take it more seriously. The old phrase nobody got fired for buying IBM decades ago is like nobody gets fired for buying Adobe Photoshop in the printing industry these days. And to be honest professionals don't buy Photoshop, they buy the whole Adobe suite of tools. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 14 09:31:24 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 07:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <4DA6F23B.7090106@neurotica.com> References: <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4DA6F23B.7090106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <631487.35649.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I don't believe that is necessarily always true, but I think it is generally true that commercial software tends to have better quality, at least among the applications that a typical end user would use. Now, back office stuff, or utilities sure... that stuff tends to be pretty good quality. In general though I think one thing that is particularly lacking in OSS is good user interfaces, probably because a lot of it is targeted towards techies, and there's a general sense that, if you don't like it, change it yourself, RTFM, etc. In this specific example though with image manipulation software, OSS is glaringly inferior ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, April 14, 2011 8:10:19 AM Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick On 4/13/11 4:07 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Really? Is Gimp better quality than Photoshop or Aperture? If you were doing > photo work for a living would you bet your paycheck on it? I wouldn't. You may > not always get what you pay for with commercial software, but there are plenty > of instances where it is true. There are plenty of instances of half-baked OSS > solutions like Gimp to compete with commercial apps. And "commercial" automatically means "good", "complete" and "debugged", huh? Wow. You've not used much commercial software, have you. This is becoming quite the entertaining thread. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 14 09:33:48 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 07:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com> References: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com> <705162.23906.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <384944.49266.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Did I say in all cases, or was I talking about image manipulation? You are dangerously close to putting words in my mouth. ;) GIMP may be able to offer a large percentage of capability of Aperture or Photoshop, but it is nowhere as easy to use. ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, April 14, 2011 8:08:55 AM Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick On 4/13/11 4:53 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Sure, sure... you can sacrifice and use it, but for anyone who needs it for > professional work would be foolish to use it over one of the commercial > offerings. Really? Anyone, in all cases of professional work (whatever that means) would automatically be foolish to use something that's free over paying hundreds of dollars for something that accomplishes about 95% of the same tasks? I don't think I've heard a more concise description of "well-trained American consumer" in my life. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 14 09:47:34 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:47:34 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <384944.49266.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201104132047.p3DKl9uK009746@floodgap.com> <4DA6F1E7.5050106@neurotica.com> <384944.49266.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201104141047.34994.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 14 April 2011, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Did I say in all cases, or was I talking about image manipulation? > You are dangerously close to putting words in my mouth. ;) > > GIMP may be able to offer a large percentage of capability of > Aperture or Photoshop, but it is nowhere as easy to use. I guess I'm just an "amateur" (digital) photographer, but I exclusively use Open Source software -- either GIMP or Hugin. I have had pictures (thanks to a CC Attribution license and Flickr) used on various websites, and even in a couple of books... and that's just when the person using my pictures has been nice enough to tell me. Over 99% of what I do with pictures is adjusting the EV and white balance (usually while converting from RAW), crop, rotate, and resize, which I find GIMP perfectly usable for. The rest involves other functions of GIMP or stitching together a panorama with Hugin. Pat > ________________________________ > From: Dave McGuire > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Thu, April 14, 2011 8:08:55 AM > Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick > > On 4/13/11 4:53 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > > Sure, sure... you can sacrifice and use it, but for anyone who > > needs it for professional work would be foolish to use it over one > > of the commercial offerings. > > Really? Anyone, in all cases of professional work (whatever that > means) would automatically be foolish to use something that's free > over paying hundreds of dollars for something that accomplishes > about 95% of the same tasks? > > I don't think I've heard a more concise description of > "well-trained American consumer" in my life. > > -Dave > > -- Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 14 11:12:21 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:12:21 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <4DA6F23B.7090106@neurotica.com> References: , <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, <4DA6F23B.7090106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA6BA75.3928.BE77C@cclist.sydex.com> Did anyone else think that the source code that Microsoft made public for Windows NT 3.1 was lovely? I haven't looked at all of it, but the driver samples I saw were clear, with good narrative. Compared to the stuff for MS-DOS, it was like night and day. It must have been the work of a very small team. Later versions of NT got sloppy. --Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Thu Apr 14 11:17:55 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:17:55 -0400 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> On 04/11/2011 06:00 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > I wish I could re-install... Per some of my other postings, neither > LisaTest nor Lisa Office install seem to think there's a workable > drive attached! The same drive(s) (I've tried three so far) pass > format and diagnostics on an Apple III. I've also been able to > successfully install MacWorksXL on all three using the same Lisa. > > There must be something that Lisa OS / LisaTest does that is not > involved in MacWorks / MacOS use of the drive. Darned if I know what. > > I'll keep looking for the obvious anyway (bad connections). Already > tried two or three different cables to connect the drive to the system. > > Steve > > Sorry to hear, sounds like the spared block table is full. :-( likely the media is too damaged and LOS doesn't want to try. LOS does a request for block # -1 (yes, negative 1) which the Profile responds to with it's size, signature, and either a list of spared blocks or the number of spared blocks (I forget which, maybe both.) If it's over some threshhold, LOS will throw an error saying it can't install on this Profile. If you want to have some 68000 assembly hacking fun, try to find the check and disable it. But yeah, that drive is likely not in good shape. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 14 12:34:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 18:34:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <803452.82367.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at Apr 13, 11 01:35:54 pm Message-ID: > Further, not everyone has the skill (or desire) to dink with the source when > they run into a problem. There's that whole time = money factor, and > even if I Actually 'Time' is the main reason I use open-source stuff. When my tools don't work properly (I am using tools in a very genreal sense, of course), I normally can't get on with what I want/need to be doing. I either have to fix the tools, or wait for somebody else to fix them. If I have an open-source program, there's a very good chance I can fix it myself.Or at least kludge it 'for the moment' so I can get on with something. If I don't have the soruce code, then, yes, I can submit a bug report, and then wait for soemthing to be done about it. And wait. And wait. I'd rather be fixing the problem myself to be honest, it'll probably be up and running sooner. I've contacted the authors of several open-source programs over the years, and generally get a useful e-mail reply within a day. Yes, I realise that most, if not all, open-source licenses don't require the authors to give support, but virtually all authors will. On the otehr hand, I've never received a useful reply (either by e-mail or telephone) from the 'technical support' group of any commercial software house. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 14 12:39:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 18:39:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Apr 13, 11 02:39:40 pm Message-ID: > auction lot as I couldn't afford it). I've used Gimp, and the biggest > problem that others (and I have had) is that it does not have native support > for the "raw" format that my camera puts out. If that 'raw' format is documented, then presumably it's possible to write a lossless converter from that to a format that gimp can handle. If the rw format is not docuemtned, then that would be a very good reason for me not to even consider that camera. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 14 14:44:18 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:44:18 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA74E92.9040808@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > If that 'raw' format is documented, then presumably it's possible to > write a lossless converter from that to a format that gimp can handle. If > the rw format is not docuemtned, then that would be a very good reason > for me not to even consider that camera. It is in general not possible to write a lossless format converter from a camera "raw" format to any conventional image format. In raw formats, the color primaries are not at coincident spatial locations as they are in conventional image formats such as JPEG. The raw formats also tend not to be publicly documented, but people reverse engineer them to add support to open-source software, e.g. dcraw. Eric From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 14 14:58:14 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:58:14 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick (camera formats In-Reply-To: <4DA74E92.9040808@brouhaha.com> References: <4DA74E92.9040808@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DA751D6.1060105@jwsss.com> When I was looking for decoders, the Canon format was what they claimed to b lossless jpg format, and it was close enough to use a jpeg library to decode the payload. There was also a decoder which derived a 48 bit image file by doing a debayer function. The resulting 16 bit tiff (16 bits / color x 3 colors) causes most copies of windows desktop to implode in horrible ways. Just landing on the directory with the pictures would crash the desktop code. Linux was not much better with it. I needed to have a format if possible to carry the output from a 14 bit camera, and even though it was 1 color, still the tiff code failed horribly. The problem is actually in the tiff spec, and in some vendors and libraries implementation of that format. Jim On 4/14/2011 12:44 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> If that 'raw' format is documented, then presumably it's possible to >> write a lossless converter from that to a format that gimp can >> handle. If >> the rw format is not docuemtned, then that would be a very good reason >> for me not to even consider that camera. > > It is in general not possible to write a lossless format converter > from a camera "raw" format to any conventional image format. In raw > formats, the color primaries are not at coincident spatial locations > as they are in conventional image formats such as JPEG. > > The raw formats also tend not to be publicly documented, but people > reverse engineer them to add support to open-source software, e.g. dcraw. > > Eric > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 14 15:03:09 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <631487.35649.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <143073.82635.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/14/11, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I don't believe that is necessarily > always true, but I think it is generally > true that commercial software tends to have better quality, > at least among the > applications that a typical end user would use. Now, back > office stuff, or > utilities sure... that stuff tends to be pretty good > quality. In general though > I think one thing that is particularly lacking in OSS is > good user interfaces, > probably because a lot of it is targeted towards techies, > and there's a general > sense that, if you don't like it, change it yourself, RTFM, > etc. It's definitely not always true - case in point, Microsoft Office 2010. That'a about as user-facing as it gets, and what a train wreck that mess of an interface is! I could forgive them if it was an early graphical application and nobody had thought of things like drop-down menus yet, but as a modern piece of supposedly business quality software, it falls flat on it's face. At least they fixed Excel so you can have more than 65,535 rows. At least, with the open source stuff, if one interface is especially terrible, someone will write another one. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 14 16:41:13 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 15:41:13 -0600 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: <143073.82635.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <143073.82635.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <143073.82635.qm at web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > At least, with the open source stuff, if one interface is especially > terrible , someone will write another one. I thought that someone was you. That's what all the OSS advocates say. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 16:53:20 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 17:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Apr 2011, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 04/11/2011 06:00 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> >> I wish I could re-install... Per some of my other postings, neither >> LisaTest nor Lisa Office install seem to think there's a workable >> drive attached! The same drive(s) (I've tried three so far) pass >> format and diagnostics on an Apple III. I've also been able to >> successfully install MacWorksXL on all three using the same Lisa. >> >> There must be something that Lisa OS / LisaTest does that is not >> involved in MacWorks / MacOS use of the drive. Darned if I know what. >> >> I'll keep looking for the obvious anyway (bad connections). Already >> tried two or three different cables to connect the drive to the system. >> >> Steve >> >> > > Sorry to hear, sounds like the spared block table is full. :-( likely > the media is too damaged and LOS doesn't want to try. LOS does a > request for block # -1 (yes, negative 1) which the Profile responds to > with it's size, signature, and either a list of spared blocks or the > number of spared blocks (I forget which, maybe both.) If it's over some > threshhold, LOS will throw an error saying it can't install on this Profile. > > If you want to have some 68000 assembly hacking fun, try to find the > check and disable it. But yeah, that drive is likely not in good shape. Fortunately, it appears to be a bad connection. My best guess is that MacWorks does not check data parity. LisaTest passes the drive now. Waiting for some new media to try the LOS install again, but I'm confident it will work this time around. I know the drive is in good shape since I ran the Apple III based diagnostics on it. Steve -- From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Apr 14 17:55:42 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 18:55:42 -0400 Subject: [N8VEM: 9468] Re: Jupiter Ace In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <748BAE02C73642489E57024A55453F8A@andrewdesktop> Hi Sergio! That?s excellent! Very nice! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch _____ From: n8vem at googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sergio Gimenez Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:14 PM To: n8vem at googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 9468] Re: Jupiter Ace A batch of 5 Jupiter Ace pcb?s arrived today (5 jupiter & 5 keyboards pcb?s)! Who wants a pcb ? Each one pcb is 20 $ + shipping costs (shiping costs to EEUU is 10 $ , to Europe is 5 Euros ) To EEUU = 50 $ To Europe = 45 $ or 37 Euros. You can make payment by Paypal to computronik at telefonica.net Best regards. Sergio. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Apr 14 17:55:42 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 18:55:42 -0400 Subject: S-100 Serial IO PCBs are here! Message-ID: <51F9465323B44FDE9F1087CE0D31D1CB@andrewdesktop> Hi! The S-100 Serial IO PCBs have arrived! These are updated respins of the S-100 Serial IO board from last summer with minor corrections and improvements. The S-100 Serial IO board is a dual serial board (Z85C30 UART) and includes provisions for the V-Stamp Voice Synthesizer, a DLR USB245R USB adapter, and parallel port. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Serial%20IO%20Board/Serial%20IO %20Board.htm The board is $20 plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! There are plenty of PCBs so even if you weren't on the waiting list there should be plenty to go around. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Apr 14 19:08:24 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:08:24 -0400 Subject: Prosser/The Art of Digital Design, Laboratory Notes In-Reply-To: References: <4DA5AE0A.3090109@att.net> <1302705307.27714.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <1302826104.2195.9.camel@bender> On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:55 +0200, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > it seems the amazon link is the 1st edition of the book - but i may be wrong. > > thanks in advance brian for looking. > It turns out that I do have my copy of the lab manual. I found the equivalent class (from 11 years after I took it) at http://www.cs.indiana.edu/classes/b441-sjoh/ It has a partial copy of a newer revision of the lab manual. The text is there (nearly verbatim from the 1992 revision I have) but the asynchronous state machine graphic is missing. There's a link to it, but the link is broken. The wiring diagram is missing as well, but that's probably not terribly important unless you're wirewrapping it using PALs. I scanned the wiring diagram, the asm pages, and the data path image and put them at: http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/~bdwheele/c421_lab.pdf Ignore the scribblings on them, its mostly from where I was marking where I'd finished things. That was one class I didn't doodle in! The final exam for this class was pretty awesome since the AI would come in and break our machines several different ways and we'd have to use the DEC diagnostics program and repair whatever damage had been done. I believe that pretty much everything was fair game from modifying the PALs, rewiring bits, putting chips in backwards, swapping chips, etc. I'm pleased to say I got mine fixed but it was a scary 3 hours. Enjoy! Brian > regards, > wolfgang > -- > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > Operating System Collector > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > Homepage: www.eichberger.org > > > > 2011/4/13 Brian Wheeler : > > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 07:07 -0700, steve shumaker wrote: > >> Amazon shows an "Instructors Manual".... > >> > >> http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Design-Introduction-INSTRUCTORS-MANUAL/dp/0130465992/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302703514&sr=1-2 > >> > >> > > > > I took a class based on that book (Prosser himself was the instructor). > > as I recall, there was a lab manual which had the state machine flow > > chart and various other tidbits -- some unrelated to the PDP 8 since the > > 2nd semester of that class we build a M6809 machine running FLEX and the > > project was either to interface a floppy drive or do a project of our > > own design (I built a memory mapper of sorts) > > > > In any case, I may still have the manual around, I'll look for it > > tonight. > > > > Brian > > > > > > > >> > >> On 4/13/2011 1:07 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > I'm currently enjoying to read Prosser and Winkels Book "the art of > >> > digital design". Currently I'm right into the last sections. Every now > >> > and then theres a "laboratory manual" referenced which should contain > >> > more technical stuff about the 2 designs (one is more or less pure ttl > >> > and the other is a microcoded design). > >> > > >> > It would be very interesting to look into this laboratory manuals (I > >> > can look up the correct name of the document, don't have the book > >> > handy at the moment) as the book itself only contains the basic design > >> > ideas and stuff. I'd greatly appreciate any hint where to get this > >> > manuals in print or pdf. > >> > > >> > Regards, > >> > Wolfgang > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL > >> > Operating System Collector > >> > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com > >> > Homepage: www.eichberger.org > >> > > >> > > > > > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 14 19:42:49 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 17:42:49 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick (camera formats In-Reply-To: <4DA751D6.1060105@jwsss.com> References: <4DA74E92.9040808@brouhaha.com> <4DA751D6.1060105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4DA79489.8040906@brouhaha.com> jim s wrote: > When I was looking for decoders, the Canon format was what they > claimed to b lossless jpg format, and it was close enough to use a > jpeg library to decode the payload. The described Canon format would have better quantization than a typical camera JPEG., but isn't a truly "raw" format. The CCD or CMOS sensor in the camera doesn't have its primaries in the same spatial location, so any transformation to a format that does, such as JPEG, is lossy. The Canon cameras I have used give a raw format that is entirely unrelated to JPEG. Eric From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Apr 14 20:34:20 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 02:34:20 +0100 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> References: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA7A09C.6020804@philpem.me.uk> On 13/04/11 14:45, Dave McGuire wrote: > If someone tried to feed me that garbage in a school, I'd demand my > money back. Bravo for trimming the fat from your stuff. Universities are great at this sort of crap... or at least mine was (not named for obvious reasons, namely I don't feel like poking the huge fire-breathing dragon that is their in-house legal team) This year (for the second year in a row) the MSc. Computing and Information Systems course was merged with the MEng. Software Engineering. Problem: CIS is intended as a fairly easy course for non-UK students who have no formal qualifications in comp-sci or any related subject. About 80% of the students on the course have backgrounds in business (mainly MBAs from various sketchy "universities" - quote-unquote, insert sarcasm here, et cetera). The MEng is -- or at least was -- a completely different course. To get on it in the first place you needed to do the BSc Software Development course first (four years) and hit an average of 60% over the final three years of the course AND the industry placement. No ifs, buts, arguments, or "2% grace". You get 60% or you leave with a BSc. Fail a single module, tough, you leave with the BSc. As a result of the merger, the course has been dumbed down significantly. The assignment for the Advanced Software Development module, for example, is a basic Java maintenance task: refactor some code (change function names, move some functions into separate classes, and so on). Basic stuff any second-year BSc Software Dev student should be able to do. One of the Infosec lecturers heard about this and tried to run a few extra modules (non-credit) while the networking/security lab wasn't in use. Reverse engineering, data analysis, pattern matching, all sorts of neat stuff. The Head of Department put the brakes on this pretty damn quickly: "Misuse of university resources." The icing on the cake is that the British Computer Society caught wind of the dumbing-down and promptly revoked accreditation for the MEng course track. So it's basically worthless if you're aiming for BCS membership. Bitter? Wouldn't you be? As for demanding money back, I bet I know how well that would go: "Oh, you want your money back? Well here's our Legal team, you can talk to them. By the way, they don't talk to Peons, only other lawyers, solicitors or attorneys-at-law at an equal or higher pay grade. Y'all have fun, now!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Apr 14 20:38:50 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 02:38:50 +0100 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <20110413112804.H61701@shell.lmi.net> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> <20110413112804.H61701@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA7A1AA.5090501@philpem.me.uk> On 13/04/11 19:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > I've been waiting and waiting, but THIS Windoze machine keeps getting > slower! 1. Wipe the hard drive and reinstall 2. Watch the machine move like a scalded hare 3. Install all the drivers and software you need 4. Watch as the machine becomes slower than molasses in an Arctic winter 5. GOTO 1 Unfortunately this seems to hold true for recent Linux distros too. I remember using Slackware on a 486DX100 laptop (a Panasonic Toughbook no less!). Now I end up wiping and reinstalling Ubuntu (or at least obliterating ~/ ) every six months or so. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Apr 14 22:34:23 2011 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 23:34:23 -0400 Subject: HP LaserJet 4100 rear cover In-Reply-To: <4DA674F6.201@att.net> References: , <4DA674F6.201@att.net> Message-ID: On Wednesday, April 13, 2011 at 21:15, steve shumaker wrote: > from comparing your pic with the partsurfer diagram, I'd call it: > > RB2-4827-000CN > > http://partsurfer.hp.com/Search.aspx?searchText=c8049a The illustration appears plausible, though I was hoping that someone could confirm from a physical part. My only concern is that the description shown is "Duplexer cover - Covers the duplexer on the back of the printer" ...but this printer has no duplexer (it's an option). The cover I need actually covers the end of the paper tray. Thanks for your help; I appreciate it. -- Dave From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Apr 14 23:25:00 2011 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 00:25:00 -0400 Subject: HP LaserJet 4100 rear cover Message-ID: On Thursday, April 14, 2011 at 23:33, I wrote: > My only concern is that the description shown is "Duplexer cover - > Covers the duplexer on the back of the printer" ...but this printer has > no duplexer (it's an option). The cover I need actually covers the > end of the paper tray. Aha! I see from the "Advanced" view on the PartSurfer page that the part description is different; there, it's "Cover, tray 2," and that is indeed what it covers. Thanks again, Steve. -- Dave From jonas at otter.se Thu Apr 14 14:05:58 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 21:05:58 +0200 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 92, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA74596.4070400@otter.se> On 2011-04-13 19:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> On 06/04/2011 19:04, Tony Duell wrote: > In case anyone's wondering why I've been silent for almost a week, it was > due to problems with some modern equipment between me and this list. That > is to say my ISP had routing problems (or so it appears). The ancient > parts (my PC) worked perfectly. Something like what my ISP did to me a while ago. The web/mail/database server they provided decided to self-destruct, taking down among other things, email for the whole family. It took them about a week to find out that the server was beyond repair, and transfer all accounts to a new machine - of course they changed its name at the same time. I asked them to restore all mail from the old one, goodness knows what would have happened to it otherwise. It turned out that "restoring" mail meant dumping a gazillion files with strange names in some directory structure specific to the old mail system. The databases ended up as SQL scripts. Of course I changed providers, and had to spend a couple of weeks downloading the mail files, importing them into Thunderbird and moving them to the new server. Thankfully all the files were RFC-822 format, but I still had to rename them all. Thank goodness for bulk renaming utilities. I didn't want to rename them in place in case I messed up so I had to do it all in Windows. All this work I would still have had to do if I had stayed with the old provider, of course. Obviously, paying a provider to manage a server and do backups etc doesn't necessarily mean they do it very well. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Thu Apr 14 16:52:41 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 23:52:41 +0200 Subject: Epson SMD-400 diskette drive Message-ID: <4DA76CA9.3070906@otter.se> I finally gave in and got an Atari 1040ST, I used to have one but foolishly got rid of it a long time ago. However, it has a problem reading diskettes. It can read the root directory and at least one subdirectory and display a file from a diskette with text files on it, but what it prints is completely garbled. I have taken it apart and taken the shield plate off the drive and cleaned the heads with alcohol, but it still won't work. I suspect the problem is with the stepper motor drive. It makes a rather nasty noise when trying to seek; I remember it was fairly loud but this one makes a sharper noise than I remember. Looking at it trying to read a disk, it looks as if the heads don't move at all. As far as I can see, the stepper motor has a cogwheel on the end of the axle, which moves the heads via a rack which meshes with the cogwheel. It looks to my ageing eyes as if the rack has chewed a slot round the middle of the cogwheel, which would explain why the heads don't move. Somehow I don't think the cogwheel should look like that. If the cogwheel is broken, I shall have to get a replacement drive, fortunately they seem fairly common on eBay. Making a new cogwheel and probably a new rack is completely out of the question for me, and replacing the motor and rack doesn't seem like a particularly viable or economic option for me (it probably would be for Tony, but then I don't have a metalworking workshop with a lathe available to me :-) ). Any thoughts? Am I right in supposing that the cogwheel shouldn't look as if it had a slot round the middle? /Jonas From monahan at vitasoft.org Thu Apr 14 18:30:42 2011 From: monahan at vitasoft.org (John Monahan) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:30:42 -0700 Subject: [N8VEM-S100:165] S-100 Serial IO PCBs are here! In-Reply-To: <51F9465323B44FDE9F1087CE0D31D1CB@andrewdesktop> References: <51F9465323B44FDE9F1087CE0D31D1CB@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <000301cbfafb$f9272aa0$eb757fe0$@vitasoft.org> That's great Andrew, I sent money via PP for 3. Things are really hopping now! I just got the ZFDC boards today. I will stick with the 8086 prototype for a day or two more to see if I can solve this wait state/onboard EPROM issue. ZFDCs look beautiful BTW. John From: n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 3:56 PM To: n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com; n8vem at googlegroups.com Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: [N8VEM-S100:165] S-100 Serial IO PCBs are here! Hi! The S-100 Serial IO PCBs have arrived! These are updated respins of the S-100 Serial IO board from last summer with minor corrections and improvements. The S-100 Serial IO board is a dual serial board (Z85C30 UART) and includes provisions for the V-Stamp Voice Synthesizer, a DLR USB245R USB adapter, and parallel port. http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Serial%20IO%20Board/Serial%20IO %20Board.htm The board is $20 plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! There are plenty of PCBs so even if you weren't on the waiting list there should be plenty to go around. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From doug at doughq.com Thu Apr 14 18:46:58 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:46:58 +1000 Subject: [N8VEM: 9468] Re: Jupiter Ace In-Reply-To: <748BAE02C73642489E57024A55453F8A@andrewdesktop> References: <748BAE02C73642489E57024A55453F8A@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: Hi Andrew, Can you please pass a message onto Sergio that I would love to purchase on of his board sets. I am waiting for an approval to happen so I can finally join the N8VEM group formally. Regards, Doug On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi Sergio! That?s excellent! Very nice! > > > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > > _____ > > From: n8vem at googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of > Sergio Gimenez > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:14 PM > To: n8vem at googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 9468] Re: Jupiter Ace > > > > A batch of 5 Jupiter Ace pcb?s arrived today (5 jupiter & 5 keyboards > pcb?s)! > > Who wants a pcb ? Each one pcb is 20 $ + shipping costs (shiping costs to > EEUU is 10 $ , to Europe is 5 Euros ) > To EEUU = 50 $ > To Europe = 45 $ or 37 Euros. > > You can make payment by Paypal to computronik at telefonica.net > > Best regards. > > Sergio. > > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 15 01:30:16 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 23:30:16 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA7A1AA.5090501@philpem.me.uk> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> <20110413112804.H61701@shell.lmi.net> <4DA7A1AA.5090501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DA7E5F8.8080402@brouhaha.com> On 04/14/2011 06:38 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Unfortunately this seems to hold true for recent Linux distros too. I > remember using Slackware on a 486DX100 laptop (a Panasonic Toughbook > no less!). Now I end up wiping and reinstalling Ubuntu (or at least > obliterating ~/ ) every six months or so. That's odd; I wonder what's doing that to you. I'm using a different Linux distribution, and used its predecessors going back to 1995, and never have had that kind of thing happen. (I'm not mentioning it by name as I'm not claiming that it's better and I'm not trying to start a thread on the merits of various Linux distributions.) It's been said that if you have a problem with Windows, reboot, and if you have a problem with Linux, be root. However, far too often problems with Windows are not solved by rebooting and must be solved by reinstalling. Eric From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 02:01:44 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:01:44 +0200 Subject: Prosser/The Art of Digital Design, Laboratory Notes In-Reply-To: <1302826104.2195.9.camel@bender> References: <4DA5AE0A.3090109@att.net> <1302705307.27714.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <1302826104.2195.9.camel@bender> Message-ID: Many thanx Brian! I'll study the materials on weekend, be sure I'll enjoy this. Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/4/15 Brian Wheeler : > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:55 +0200, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: >> it seems the amazon link is the 1st edition of the book - but i may be wrong. >> >> thanks in advance brian for looking. >> > > It turns out that I do have my copy of the lab manual. > > I found the equivalent class (from 11 years after I took it) at > http://www.cs.indiana.edu/classes/b441-sjoh/ > > It has a partial copy of a newer revision of the lab manual. ? The text > is there (nearly verbatim from the 1992 revision I have) but the > asynchronous state machine graphic is missing. ?There's a link to it, > but the link is broken. ?The wiring diagram is missing as well, but > that's probably not terribly important unless you're wirewrapping it > using PALs. > > I scanned the wiring diagram, the asm pages, and the data path image and > put them at: > > http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/~bdwheele/c421_lab.pdf > > Ignore the scribblings on them, its mostly from where I was marking > where I'd finished things. That was one class I didn't doodle in! > > The final exam for this class was pretty awesome since the AI would come > in and break our machines several different ways and we'd have to use > the DEC diagnostics program and repair whatever damage had been done. ?I > believe that pretty much everything was fair game from modifying the > PALs, rewiring bits, putting chips in backwards, swapping chips, etc. > I'm pleased to say I got mine fixed but it was a scary 3 hours. > > > Enjoy! > Brian > >> regards, >> ?wolfgang >> -- >> Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL >> Operating System Collector >> Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com >> Homepage: www.eichberger.org >> >> >> >> 2011/4/13 Brian Wheeler : >> > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 07:07 -0700, steve shumaker wrote: >> >> Amazon shows an "Instructors Manual".... >> >> >> >> http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Design-Introduction-INSTRUCTORS-MANUAL/dp/0130465992/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302703514&sr=1-2 >> >> >> >> >> > >> > I took a class based on that book (Prosser himself was the instructor). >> > as I recall, there was a lab manual which had the state machine flow >> > chart and various other tidbits -- some unrelated to the PDP 8 since the >> > 2nd semester of that class we build a M6809 machine running FLEX and the >> > project was either to interface a floppy drive or do a project of our >> > own design (I built a memory mapper of sorts) >> > >> > In any case, I may still have the manual around, I'll look for it >> > tonight. >> > >> > Brian >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> On 4/13/2011 1:07 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > >> >> > I'm currently enjoying to read Prosser and Winkels Book "the art of >> >> > digital design". Currently I'm right into the last sections. Every now >> >> > and then theres a "laboratory manual" referenced which should contain >> >> > more technical stuff about the 2 designs (one is more or less pure ttl >> >> > and the other is a microcoded design). >> >> > >> >> > It would be very interesting to look into this laboratory manuals (I >> >> > can look up the correct name of the document, don't have the book >> >> > handy at the moment) as the book itself only contains the basic design >> >> > ideas and stuff. I'd greatly appreciate any hint where to get this >> >> > manuals in print or pdf. >> >> > >> >> > Regards, >> >> > ? Wolfgang >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL >> >> > Operating System Collector >> >> > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com >> >> > Homepage: www.eichberger.org >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 04:35:43 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:35:43 +0100 Subject: Prosser/The Art of Digital Design, Laboratory Notes In-Reply-To: <1302826104.2195.9.camel@bender> References: <4DA5AE0A.3090109@att.net> <1302705307.27714.22.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <1302826104.2195.9.camel@bender> Message-ID: On 15 April 2011 01:08, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:55 +0200, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote: >> it seems the amazon link is the 1st edition of the book - but i may be wrong. >> >> thanks in advance brian for looking. >> > > It turns out that I do have my copy of the lab manual. > > I found the equivalent class (from 11 years after I took it) at > http://www.cs.indiana.edu/classes/b441-sjoh/ > > It has a partial copy of a newer revision of the lab manual. ? The text > is there (nearly verbatim from the 1992 revision I have) but the > asynchronous state machine graphic is missing. ?There's a link to it, > but the link is broken. ?The wiring diagram is missing as well, but > that's probably not terribly important unless you're wirewrapping it > using PALs. > > I scanned the wiring diagram, the asm pages, and the data path image and > put them at: > > http://www.dlib.indiana.edu/~bdwheele/c421_lab.pdf > > Ignore the scribblings on them, its mostly from where I was marking > where I'd finished things. That was one class I didn't doodle in! > > The final exam for this class was pretty awesome since the AI would come > in and break our machines several different ways and we'd have to use > the DEC diagnostics program and repair whatever damage had been done. An AI marked your exams? Wow. Cool. I'm impressed. Do you come from a rather more advanced alternate universe or from the future? -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Apr 15 10:04:09 2011 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice old calculator on CL In-Reply-To: <4DA7A09C.6020804@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> <4DA7A09C.6020804@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/atq/2325583852.html If I had space... Peter Wallace From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 15 13:27:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:27:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson SMD-400 diskette drive In-Reply-To: <4DA76CA9.3070906@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Apr 14, 11 11:52:41 pm Message-ID: > > I finally gave in and got an Atari 1040ST, I used to have one but > foolishly got rid of it a long time ago. However, it has a problem > reading diskettes. It can read the root directory and at least one > subdirectory and display a file from a diskette with text files on it, > but what it prints is completely garbled. > > I have taken it apart and taken the shield plate off the drive and > cleaned the heads with alcohol, but it still won't work. I suspect the > problem is with the stepper motor drive. It makes a rather nasty noise > when trying to seek; I remember it was fairly loud but this one makes a > sharper noise than I remember. Looking at it trying to read a disk, it > looks as if the heads don't move at all. As far as I can see, the > stepper motor has a cogwheel on the end of the axle, which moves the > heads via a rack which meshes with the cogwheel. It looks to my ageing > eyes as if the rack has chewed a slot round the middle of the cogwheel, > which would explain why the heads don't move. Somehow I don't think the > cogwheel should look like that. Hmmm. I am not so sure. Are you saying that this uses a rack-and-pinion type of hard positioner? If so, it's the first one I've heard of in a floppy drive, but anyway... You would want som way to eliminate the backlash between the rack and the drive gear. One common way to do thsi is to make the gear in 2 'slices'. One is fixed to the spidnle, the other is free to move by a small angle, but there;s a bias spring forcing it in a particualr direciton relative to the spindle. The idea is that said spring is pre-tensioned when the mechnaism is assembled so that the teeth of the 2 gears are forces to commpletel fill the gaps between the teeth on the rack. What I would do next is with the drive removed, try carefully moving the head back and forth and/or rotatign the stepper motor spindle and see what moves. If something is stripped then moving the head will not rotrate the motore and vice versa. Of course you may find that something is jammed solid, in which cae that could be the problem. My other thought is that often when a stepper motor positionr malfcuncions (and this can cuase it to make odd noises), the problem is the lsos of drive to one phase of the stapper motor. if the driver is part of a large ASIC on the drive PCB, then I guess you need a replacemetn drive, nut a lot of drives used a separate buffer/driver IC which may well eb obtainable.. It's worth investigating the motor and its driver anyway. I asusme you don;t ahve a floppy drive exerciser. If you do, of coruse, you cna try steppign the drive by hand ans see what it does. > > If the cogwheel is broken, I shall have to get a replacement drive, > fortunately they seem fairly common on eBay. Making a new cogwheel and > probably a new rack is completely out of the question for me, and > replacing the motor and rack doesn't seem like a particularly viable or > economic option for me (it probably would be for Tony, but then I don't > have a metalworking workshop with a lathe available to me :-) ). Also remember that if you dismantle the head poositioner, you will need to set the radial alignment, which needs an alignment disk. Something else you may well not have. While it certainly isn't worth getting a lathe and all the add-ons just to repair one floppy drive, it is somethign that you may want to consider at some point. Having the ability to make mechancial parts really increases the things you can repair, and it also removes worry from doing some jobs ('If I mangle this part getting it off, I can always turn another one.'). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 15 13:04:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:04:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 92, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <4DA74596.4070400@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Apr 14, 11 09:05:58 pm Message-ID: [ISP problems] > Of course I changed providers, and had to spend a couple of weeks Unfortuantely, that is not really an option for me. > downloading the mail files, importing them into Thunderbird and moving > them to the new server. Thankfully all the files were RFC-822 format, > but I still had to rename them all. Thank goodness for bulk renaming > utilities. I didn't want to rename them in place in case I messed up so > I had to do it all in Windows. All this work I would still have had to > do if I had stayed with the old provider, of course. Obviously, paying a > provider to manage a server and do backups etc doesn't necessarily mean > they do it very well. I have come to reliase that just because somebody is employed to do a particular job, or just because they have a piece of paper qualifying them to do a particualr job, it does not mean they are able to do that job properly (or willing to do that job properly). I suspect this somewhat colours my view of open-source .vs. commercial software. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 15 13:47:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:47:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DA7A09C.6020804@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 15, 11 02:34:20 am Message-ID: > > On 13/04/11 14:45, Dave McGuire wrote: > > If someone tried to feed me that garbage in a school, I'd demand my > > money back. Bravo for trimming the fat from your stuff. Actually, that is minor compared to some of the garbage I was 'taught' at school. I fact I don;t think I ever had a clueful matehmatics of physics teacher. I think the wordst was when I was aksed to descrtivbe a method of measuring something (the capacitance of a capacitor). I did so (an AC bridge) and was told 'That is a compariston and not a measurement', I am still waiting for a definition of 'measurement' (or an esample of one) which does not involve a comaprison to a standard. > Universities are great at this sort of crap... or at least mine was (not Actually, I found school to be a lot worse than universiry... > named for obvious reasons, namely I don't feel like poking the huge > fire-breathing dragon that is their in-house legal team) > > This year (for the second year in a row) the MSc. Computing and > Information Systems course was merged with the MEng. Software Engineering. > > Problem: CIS is intended as a fairly easy course for non-UK students who > have no formal qualifications in comp-sci or any related subject. About > 80% of the students on the course have backgrounds in business (mainly > MBAs from various sketchy "universities" - quote-unquote, insert sarcasm ^^^^^^^^^^^^ I assume oens that i tend to refer to as the 'ex poly parrots' :-) > here, et cetera). > > The MEng is -- or at least was -- a completely different course. To get > on it in the first place you needed to do the BSc Software Development > course first (four years) and hit an average of 60% over the final three > years of the course AND the industry placement. No ifs, buts, arguments, > or "2% grace". You get 60% or you leave with a BSc. Fail a single > module, tough, you leave with the BSc. > > As a result of the merger, the course has been dumbed down > significantly. The assignment for the Advanced Software Development > module, for example, is a basic Java maintenance task: refactor some > code (change function names, move some functions into separate classes, > and so on). Basic stuff any second-year BSc Software Dev student should > be able to do. > > One of the Infosec lecturers heard about this and tried to run a few > extra modules (non-credit) while the networking/security lab wasn't in > use. Reverse engineering, data analysis, pattern matching, all sorts of > neat stuff. The Head of Department put the brakes on this pretty damn > quickly: "Misuse of university resources." I am wondering in what sense teaching students something that is probably usefu lis 'misuse of university respirces'... I guess it;s like the time I was kicked out of the school ibrary (and had to get special permision to carry on) becasue I was reading the books. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 15 13:50:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:50:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nice old calculator on CL In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Apr 15, 11 08:04:09 am Message-ID: > > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/atq/2325583852.html Can somebody please give the make nad model :-)_ > > If I had space... Surely a clacualtor cna;t be that large? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 15 14:14:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:14:08 -0400 Subject: Nice old calculator on CL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA89900.90902@neurotica.com> On 4/15/11 2:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/atq/2325583852.html > > Can somebody please give the make nad model :-)_ From the nameplate, it's a Burroughs 184799. >> If I had space... > > Surely a clacualtor cna;t be that large? It's very small, about like what used to be called a "typewriter table" but a bit smaller. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 15 14:19:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:19:36 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 92, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA89A48.7040502@neurotica.com> On 4/15/11 2:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I have come to reliase that just because somebody is employed to do a > particular job, or just because they have a piece of paper qualifying > them to do a particualr job, it does not mean they are able to do that > job properly (or willing to do that job properly). Exactly. Proof of ability is in doing, not in a piece of paper...whether that piece of paper is a business card, an industry certification, or a university degree. > I suspect this somewhat colours my view of open-source .vs. commercial > software. It *defines* mine. The very notion of doing something because it's your 9-5 job vs. doing something because it's what you love makes the difference. It's reinforced for me every time I run across a Windows blue screen on an ATM, a "live" restaurant menu, or an airport information display. I've seen (and cleaned up the messes from) enough clock-watching "programmers", and the drek they churn out to meet the minimum requirements to go home on time, to last me a lifetime. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 15 14:22:35 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 12:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <407844.35700.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 4/15/11, Tony Duell wrote: > I am wondering in what sense teaching students something > that is probably > usefu lis 'misuse of university respirces'... I guess it;s > like the time > I was kicked out of the school ibrary (and had to get > special permision > to carry on) becasue I was reading the books. > Heh. Reminds me of the time I got kicked out of my High School library for using one of the computers to work an English assignment. "You're using a *disk* in our computers?" Apparently, despite the presence of both a 3 1/2" floppy drive and Microsoft Word, these computers are never to be used for such tasks. Nope - searching the library catalog is all they're good for. -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 15 14:34:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:34:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 92, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <4DA89A48.7040502@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 15, 11 03:19:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/15/11 2:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have come to reliase that just because somebody is employed to do a > > particular job, or just because they have a piece of paper qualifying > > them to do a particualr job, it does not mean they are able to do that > > job properly (or willing to do that job properly). > > Exactly. Proof of ability is in doing, not in a piece of > paper...whether that piece of paper is a business card, an industry > certification, or a university degree. The next job is to convice accorted company 'support' depeatments, etc, of that. 'No, I don't have the bit of paper which says I can repair , but I am danr sure I can. Just sell be the service manual' :-) > > > I suspect this somewhat colours my view of open-source .vs. commercial > > software. > > It *defines* mine. The very notion of doing something because it's Err, yes, but I was trying to avoid startign another flamewar :-) > your 9-5 job vs. doing something because it's what you love makes the > difference. It's reinforced for me every time I run across a Windows Preciesely. Rememebr that 'aamteur' simply means somebody who does something because they love it (think Latin), profesional neans that they're paid for it. it has nothing to do with ability. > blue screen on an ATM, a "live" restaurant menu, or an airport > information display. I've seen (and cleaned up the messes from) enough As as hardware person I feel sick whenever I see an embedded PC in something that doesn't really need one. Soemthing that could be done with a much simpler system. > clock-watching "programmers", and the drek they churn out to meet the > minimum requirements to go home on time, to last me a lifetime. Indeed... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 15 14:42:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 12:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <407844.35700.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <407844.35700.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110415123305.N36530@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 15 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Heh. Reminds me of the time I got kicked out of my High School library > for using one of the computers to work an English assignment. > "You're using a *disk* in our computers?" > Apparently, despite the presence of both a 3 1/2" floppy drive and > Microsoft Word, these computers are never to be used for such tasks. > Nope - searching the library catalog is all they're good for. You are/were better off than some. I'm faculty, currently assigned as a librarian (after they discontinued all of the good CS classes). One of our administrators (synonym for "needs to be defenestrated") decided that nobody should work on English assignments on the library computers, so they REMOVED Microsoft Office from them. The most common question from the library parons is, of course, "Where is the restroom?". The second most common question is, "Where's the word processor on these?" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com 4.34 semesters to go From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 15 14:46:09 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 12:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <20110415123305.N36530@shell.lmi.net> References: <407844.35700.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110415123305.N36530@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 15 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Heh. Reminds me of the time I got kicked out of my High School library >> for using one of the computers to work an English assignment. >> "You're using a *disk* in our computers?" >> Apparently, despite the presence of both a 3 1/2" floppy drive and >> Microsoft Word, these computers are never to be used for such tasks. >> Nope - searching the library catalog is all they're good for. > > You are/were better off than some. > I'm faculty, currently assigned as a librarian (after they discontinued > all of the good CS classes). One of our administrators (synonym for > "needs to be defenestrated") decided that nobody should work on English > assignments on the library computers, so they REMOVED Microsoft Office > from them. > > The most common question from the library parons is, of course, "Where is > the restroom?". The second most common question is, "Where's the word > processor on these?" > Point out that with a usb thumbdrive and this: http://portableapps.com/suite ..they'll be set. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 15 14:58:23 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 12:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <20110415123305.N36530@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <394862.57922.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 4/15/11, Fred Cisin wrote: > > You are/were better off than some. > I'm faculty, currently assigned as a librarian (after they > discontinued > all of the good CS classes). One of our > administrators (synonym for > "needs to be defenestrated") decided that nobody should > work on English > assignments on the library computers, so they REMOVED > Microsoft Office > from them. OK, then it's a clear rule. "Thou shalt not be productive in the library - computers are for mindless web-surfing only". Put up a sign, there - it's your library, you can make any rule you want. "Don't read the books" could be another one. But no signs, no warnings, just an open invitation and resources to do schoolwork - it was clearly a trap to get me in trouble. And all these years later, I still don't understand why research and schoolwork are not allowed in the library. "No fighting in the war room!" -Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 15:11:48 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:11:48 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <394862.57922.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <394862.57922.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DA8A684.6060400@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > OK, then it's a clear rule. "Thou shalt not be productive in the > library - computers are for mindless web-surfing only". Put up a > sign, there - it's your library, you can make any rule you want. > "Don't read the books" could be another one. > > But no signs, no warnings, just an open invitation and resources to > do schoolwork - it was clearly a trap to get me in trouble. > > And all these years later, I still don't understand why research and > schoolwork are not allowed in the library. > > "No fighting in the war room!" I would've approached it in a different way. I would have talked back. I would have been sent to the principal. The principal *might* have given me detention, in which case my father would have dropped our lawyers on the school. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 15 15:25:28 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 16:25:28 -0400 Subject: Nice old calculator on CL In-Reply-To: References: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> <4DA7A09C.6020804@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DA8A9B8.4020801@verizon.net> there is only one thing that was not made 1909, that is a patent date. It's from much later maybe 30s or 40s at least. Still a find though. Allison On 04/15/2011 11:04 AM, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/atq/2325583852.html > > If I had space... > > Peter Wallace > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 15 15:39:44 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:39:44 -0700 Subject: Nice old calculator on CL In-Reply-To: <4DA8A9B8.4020801@verizon.net> References: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> <4DA7A09C.6020804@philpem.me.uk> <4DA8A9B8.4020801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <66ac7e1ecd71a224e32b0fadf532b8e4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 15, at 1:25 PM, allison wrote: > there is only one thing that was not made 1909, that is a patent date. > It's from much later maybe > 30s or 40s at least. Still a find though. I noticed that too. It's interesting there isn't a more recent patent date, closer to the time of manufacture, as so often improvements in such a new technology resulted in new patents from the manufacturers as they competed for market position. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 15:55:49 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 21:55:49 +0100 Subject: Nice old calculator on CL In-Reply-To: <66ac7e1ecd71a224e32b0fadf532b8e4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> <4DA7A09C.6020804@philpem.me.uk> <4DA8A9B8.4020801@verizon.net> <66ac7e1ecd71a224e32b0fadf532b8e4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: I do not think that number is a patent number see http://home.ix.netcom.com/~hancockm/when_was_it_made.htm the serial number encodes date and model but the linked page seems to miss out the 184xxx numbers Dave Caroline On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 Apr 15, at 1:25 PM, allison wrote: > >> there is only one thing that was not made 1909, that is a patent date. >> ?It's from much later maybe >> 30s or 40s at least. ?Still a find though. > > I noticed that too. It's interesting there isn't a more recent patent date, > closer to the time of manufacture, as so often improvements in such a new > technology resulted in new patents from the manufacturers as they competed > for market position. > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 15:59:51 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 21:59:51 +0100 Subject: Nice old calculator on CL In-Reply-To: <66ac7e1ecd71a224e32b0fadf532b8e4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> <4DA7A09C.6020804@philpem.me.uk> <4DA8A9B8.4020801@verizon.net> <66ac7e1ecd71a224e32b0fadf532b8e4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: looks like a class 1 style 9 http://www.officemuseum.com/IMagesWWW/1906_Burroughs_No._9_marketed_1911_OM.jpg http://www.officemuseum.com/calculating_machines_adding_listing.htm Dave Caroline From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Apr 15 16:10:06 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:10:06 -0700 Subject: Epson SMD-400 diskette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Do you have some way to take pics of it? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 15 16:22:26 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:22:26 -0700 Subject: Nice old calculator on CL In-Reply-To: References: <4DA5A90D.40403@neurotica.com> <4DA7A09C.6020804@philpem.me.uk> <4DA8A9B8.4020801@verizon.net> <66ac7e1ecd71a224e32b0fadf532b8e4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2011 Apr 15, at 1:55 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > I do not think that number is a patent number see > http://home.ix.netcom.com/~hancockm/when_was_it_made.htm > the serial number encodes date and model > but the linked page seems to miss out the 184xxx numbers We/I were going by the patent dates (Jul 1907 - Jul 1909) on the nameplate in the photo, not the serial number. But yes, your refs suggest it is of the era the patent dates suggest. I initially thought it was more like a '20s/30s era machine. Not sure when those machines first started getting electrified. > Dave Caroline > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:39 PM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: >> On 2011 Apr 15, at 1:25 PM, allison wrote: >> >>> there is only one thing that was not made 1909, that is a patent >>> date. >>> ?It's from much later maybe >>> 30s or 40s at least. ?Still a find though. >> >> I noticed that too. It's interesting there isn't a more recent patent >> date, >> closer to the time of manufacture, as so often improvements in such a >> new >> technology resulted in new patents from the manufacturers as they >> competed >> for market position. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 15 17:55:47 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:55:47 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7b3b2d30fc5d8972a5ed686bf257d534@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 15, at 11:47 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 13/04/11 14:45, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> If someone tried to feed me that garbage in a school, I'd demand my >>> money back. Bravo for trimming the fat from your stuff. > > Actually, that is minor compared to some of the garbage I was 'taught' > at > school. I fact I don;t think I ever had a clueful matehmatics of > physics > teacher. > > I think the wordst was when I was aksed to descrtivbe a method of > measuring something (the capacitance of a capacitor). I did so (an AC > bridge) and was told 'That is a compariston and not a measurement', I > am > still waiting for a definition of 'measurement' (or an esample of one) > which > does not involve a comaprison to a standard. I expect that what your instructor was getting at was that the use of an AC bridge typically involves comparison with another C, which also needs to be measured. It becomes a 'turtles all the way down' problem. This would be in contrast to a solution which examines Cx in terms of the definition of capacitance (time/charge) and breaks it down to more fundamental/axiomatic measurement units (i.e.,time,mass), even though this does involve comparison to some other standard. "That is a comparison and not a measurement" may not be a full expression of the distinction, but I think your instructor had a point. I'm not up to scratch on my measurement theory, what are the fundamental standards these days?, there's oscillation of the cesium atom for T, there was the Meter bar in Paris for D, but hasn't that been redefined?, etc. Or, how many fundamental standards do we need to derive everything else? 3?. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 15 19:39:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:39:34 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <7b3b2d30fc5d8972a5ed686bf257d534@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7b3b2d30fc5d8972a5ed686bf257d534@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DA8E546.8030404@neurotica.com> On 4/15/11 6:55 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> I think the wordst was when I was aksed to descrtivbe a method of >> measuring something (the capacitance of a capacitor). I did so (an AC >> bridge) and was told 'That is a compariston and not a measurement', I am >> still waiting for a definition of 'measurement' (or an esample of one) >> which >> does not involve a comaprison to a standard. > > I expect that what your instructor was getting at was that the use of an > AC bridge typically involves comparison with another C, which also needs > to be measured. It becomes a 'turtles all the way down' problem. This > would be in contrast to a solution which examines Cx in terms of the > definition of capacitance (time/charge) and breaks it down to more > fundamental/axiomatic measurement units (i.e.,time,mass), even though > this does involve comparison to some other standard. > > "That is a comparison and not a measurement" may not be a full > expression of the distinction, but I think your instructor had a point. > > I'm not up to scratch on my measurement theory, what are the fundamental > standards these days?, there's oscillation of the cesium atom for T, > there was the Meter bar in Paris for D, but hasn't that been redefined?, > etc. Or, how many fundamental standards do we need to derive everything > else? 3?. The metrology world typically uses calculable capacitors for C. For voltage, Josephson junctions are the top dog, driven by a primary frequency standard. This is a primary standard because the only other parameters are e and Planck's constant. I believe quantum Hall effect devices are still used for R standards but I haven't kept up with that. SET (single-electron tunneling) devices are en vogue as current standards but I don't know much about those either. In electronic metrology, "measurements" are carried out by comparison to these standards or derivatives thereof. Voltage is measured potentiometrically via either a solid-state null detector or a SQUID (superconducting quantum interference device). For capacitance, as in Tony's situation, I'd expect a passive AC bridge would be how it's done, comparing against (absolute best case) a calculable capacitor. That gets you down to first principles, but the "measurement" is still a comparison. As you stated above, measuring the RC time constant with a precision timer and a precision voltage source (both driven by primary standards, cesium fountain and Josephson junction array) is still comparing it, by my interpretation, mathematically against numbers calculated from those primary standards. I'm not sure Tony's instructor actually had a point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 15 20:18:24 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 18:18:24 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DA8E546.8030404@neurotica.com> References: <7b3b2d30fc5d8972a5ed686bf257d534@cs.ubc.ca> <4DA8E546.8030404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 15, at 5:39 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/15/11 6:55 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> I think the wordst was when I was aksed to descrtivbe a method of >>> measuring something (the capacitance of a capacitor). I did so (an AC >>> bridge) and was told 'That is a compariston and not a measurement', >>> I am >>> still waiting for a definition of 'measurement' (or an esample of >>> one) >>> which >>> does not involve a comaprison to a standard. >> >> I expect that what your instructor was getting at was that the use of >> an >> AC bridge typically involves comparison with another C, which also >> needs >> to be measured. It becomes a 'turtles all the way down' problem. This >> would be in contrast to a solution which examines Cx in terms of the >> definition of capacitance (time/charge) and breaks it down to more >> fundamental/axiomatic measurement units (i.e.,time,mass), even though >> this does involve comparison to some other standard. >> >> "That is a comparison and not a measurement" may not be a full >> expression of the distinction, but I think your instructor had a >> point. >> >> I'm not up to scratch on my measurement theory, what are the >> fundamental >> standards these days?, there's oscillation of the cesium atom for T, >> there was the Meter bar in Paris for D, but hasn't that been >> redefined?, >> etc. Or, how many fundamental standards do we need to derive >> everything >> else? 3?. > > The metrology world typically uses calculable capacitors for C. For > voltage, Josephson junctions are the top dog, driven by a primary > frequency standard. This is a primary standard because the only other > parameters are e and Planck's constant. I believe quantum Hall effect > devices are still used for R standards but I haven't kept up with > that. SET (single-electron tunneling) devices are en vogue as current > standards but I don't know much about those either. > > In electronic metrology, "measurements" are carried out by > comparison to these standards or derivatives thereof. Voltage is > measured potentiometrically via either a solid-state null detector or > a SQUID (superconducting quantum interference device). For > capacitance, as in Tony's situation, I'd expect a passive AC bridge > would be how it's done, comparing against (absolute best case) a > calculable capacitor. That gets you down to first principles, but the > "measurement" is still a comparison. As you stated above, measuring > the RC time constant with a precision timer and a precision voltage > source (both driven by primary standards, cesium fountain and > Josephson junction array) is still comparing it, by my interpretation, > mathematically against numbers calculated from those primary > standards. I'm not sure Tony's instructor actually had a point. We all agree there are always comparisons to some reference or other, but the point I was attempting to make of the distinction between approaches remains. The calculable capacitor situation relies on another definition of C to calculably take the measurement back to that of the more fundamental measurement of distance, as opposed to simply calibrating it as another C (more turtles). From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 15 20:28:00 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 18:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <394862.57922.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <394862.57922.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110415182052.E36530@shell.lmi.net> > > You are/were better off than some. I'm faculty, currently assigned as > > a librarian (after they discontinued all of the good CS classes). > > One of our administrators (synonym for "needs to be defenestrated") > > decided that nobody should work on English assignments on the library > > computers, so they REMOVED Microsoft Office from them. On Fri, 15 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > OK, then it's a clear rule. "Thou shalt not be productive in the library > - computers are for mindless web-surfing only". Put up a sign, there - > it's your library, you can make any rule you want. "Don't read the > books" could be another one. I'm one of three, AND we have to answer to mindless micro-managing college administrators. Students who understand what they are doing use online editing tools, and/or bring what they need on their flash drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 15 20:55:55 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 02:55:55 +0100 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA7E5F8.8080402@brouhaha.com> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> <20110413112804.H61701@shell.lmi.net> <4DA7A1AA.5090501@philpem.me.uk> <4DA7E5F8.8080402@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DA8F72B.6050602@philpem.me.uk> On 15/04/11 07:30, Eric Smith wrote: > On 04/14/2011 06:38 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Now I end up wiping and reinstalling Ubuntu (or at least >> obliterating ~/ ) every six months or so. > That's odd; I wonder what's doing that to you. I think it's just GNOME's Gconf configuration database and the MIME-type translations getting filled with junk. That and my Firefox user profile -- I traced part of the slowdown to a misbehaving Firefox extension, and another part of it to a Greasemonkey script which was forcing refreshes every couple of minutes. Also, Firefox really doesn't like it when you have four windows open, with ~30 tabs open in each window... I've been trying to switch to Chrome + Evolution, but Thunderbird has a neat extension called "Correct Identity" which I use a lot. Essentially, it hooks the "send mail" function and makes sure messages to mailing lists have the correct From: address. In 20 minutes of using Evo, I had an inbox full of bouncebacks, and a snarky email from a listadmin... > I'm using a different > Linux distribution, and used its predecessors going back to 1995, and > never have had that kind of thing happen. (I'm not mentioning it by name > as I'm not claiming that it's better and I'm not trying to start a > thread on the merits of various Linux distributions.) I'm actually toying with the idea of having a play with Debian and one of the non-GNOME Ubuntu variants. Kubuntu is nice, but KDE4 is a bit too 'Windows-7-y' for my liking. Xubuntu is next on my "Linux distros to try" list, though I'm not sure how I'll get on with the somewhat minimalist Xfce... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Sat Apr 16 01:42:14 2011 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 23:42:14 -0700 Subject: IOB6120 Anyone? Message-ID: I have recently completed testing of some IOB6120 boards, and I've sold a few in the Spare Time Gizmos group, but now I'm offering them for sale here, too. This isn't related to the earlier group buy (which, as far as I know, folks are still waiting for), and in fact isn't a group buy at all. I've already bought the necessary materials, assembled, and even tested these things. (I have no bare boards or unassembled kits available.) According to my email archive, $215 was the asking price for similarly configured boards back when, and that still seems reasonable to me. A little more for international shipping. (Feel free to donate additional funds, of course :-).) There are some minor variations between the units -- most have box headers for the (untested) digital I/O interface option, but a couple have bare male headers. All have box headers for the serial ports, and on the bottom all have a bare 50 pin male header, a two-pin female header (for CPREQ), and a bit of purple electrical tape to protect the +3V poles of the batteries from bumping up against stuff. These have been assembled with no-clean 63-37 tin-lead solder (and will still have residual flux on them). If you want one of these, please contact me off-list: v.slyngstad at frontier.com. Here are the particulars of the testing I have done: Each of the four ram-disk has passed the "RF" pattern test. The CF interface has performed a "DF" command on even and odd numbered partitions, and booted OS/8 successfully from a bootable CF. The flash responds to commands and has been programmed. It should be noted that these boards have 29F400 flash instead of 28F400 flash installed. This means you'd need to get new firmware for the IOB6120 to be able to reprogram the flash with the "FL" command. I can probably provide a pair of 27256 EPROM programmed with unofficial firmware for about an additional $10 , but I have only so many chips, and would rather not unless you actually plan to modify the flash. The FLASH extension ROM is recognized and correctly initializes the FPGA, which then passes the self-tests. The clock/calendar has been set (PDT) and keeps the date/time and partition map settings for days at a time, so the battery and battery back-up seem to be working. The VT52 terminal emulation has been tried and works. Right-CTL-G generates a "beep" from the speaker as expected. The 3 serial ports all independently display characters and accept input at 9600 baud. I am prepared to throw in a single serial cable -- with a 10 pin header on one end, and a male DE9 connector on the other. The printer port is capable of individually lighting LEDs from each of the 7 data pins. (Data pin 8 is actually masked off in the FPGA, so it's obviously set up for 7-bit ASCII.) (I don't have a proper working parallel printer to hook up for actual printing.) Vince -- o< The ASCII Ribbon Campaign Against HTML Email! From evan at snarc.net Sat Apr 16 03:39:22 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 04:39:22 -0400 Subject: Woz + VCF East Message-ID: <4DA955BA.2090208@snarc.net> Nah, that subject line was just a teaser, Steve isn't coming to VCF East -- this year -- but he does like our t-shirt! Check out this screen capture of a Facebook exchange from just now: http://www.snarc.net/woz2.jpg ..... come to VCF East and get your own! (Irony: the VCF site is down tonight. Sellam is working to fix it pronto.) From wgungfu at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 03:16:24 2011 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 02:16:24 -0600 Subject: Looking for Multibus parts..... Message-ID: Have a friend looking for Multibus parts, told him I'd post here in the hopes that someone here might be able to help it out. Here's his request: "I need an extender board for a system that uses a multibus backplane. (Multibus I, MBI, whatever you want to call it) I have a system that I need to work on and obviously need one of these to work on the boards while they're in the unit. Here's a link to a pic of one similar to what I need: http://www.vectorelect.com/Product/Extenders/Multibus.htm If anyone has one available, I'd be happy to hear about it and they can email me at sexsymbol at execpc.com." Marty From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Fri Apr 15 14:28:59 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:28:59 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... Message-ID: <4DA8643B020000E40001D92D@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Thanks for the suggestions so far. I tried a few things with the following to report: I verified the copy of RT-11 on RX-01 floppy. It boots fine on the LSI-11 system it was built on, tried "BOOT RT11SJ" as well as with the "/FOREIGN" option and it ran fine on that system (which has an M7946 controller). The drive is configured for RX-01 mode only (since these are the only controllers I have in both Q-Bus and Unibus flavour). Now, put that same drive on the 11/34 CPU with an M7846 card. Checked the CPU carefully: NPG jumpers are all intact on the backplane (CA1-CA2) and all unused slot D's have a grant continuity card. Just to ensure it works I reconfigured the console for 9600 baud (originally 300) and ran a simple "echo" program loaded at 001000 which runs fine (so it can store programs in memory and the execute them). The system has loads of memory - three cards with 16K, 48KW, and 96kW on them - so I did a quick check at locations 100000 and 700000 and memory is certainly there. Tried typing-in the RX-01 bootstrap and running it: same as before, stops with "005134" on the display. Added an M9301 card to avoid having to type-in the bootstrap each time (also, slot 3AB of my system was empty ... no terminator, nothing .... should have a terminator in that slot regardless and I should have added this card long ago). Now, I can just start the 11/34, and start the bootstrap ROM (with console emulator) at 773000. I get the four registers displayed as expected and the "$" prompt. Typed "DX0" to boot from the floppy. The heads engage and I can hear the heads stepping: Step, short pause, and three more steps, and then it halts again: "005134" on the display (when that address is examined, the contents are "000400"). Any further thought on how do diagnose this one would be appreciated! Jerome: this is my personal "baby" which I have owned even before I went to engineering school. Now just part of a personal collection of interesting technology. I _had_ three RK-05 drives on the system at one point but those drives were stored very improperly and were completely destroyed (the system worked about 20 years ago with those drives and oddly, never had an M9301 installed - that slot was always empty). Now, I am just salvaging what was left working ... in my case I was very lucky that the CPU seems unscathed by the ravages of time! The RX-01 controller was picked-up a few years ago in the hopes I could make a basic system again with an RX-01 drive. Cheers ... Mark Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From chrise at pobox.com Sat Apr 16 05:58:43 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 05:58:43 -0500 Subject: Syquest SQ52xx failure modes? Message-ID: <20110416105843.GV2239@n0jcf.net> I was given a Syquest 200MB (I believe model number SQ5200) the other day along with a pile of cartridges... some 200 MB and some 44 MB. I knew of these drives in the day but never played with one so it's an interesting exploration. I was considering hooking it to my PDP-11/34 via CMD SCSI controller except... The drive will mount most of the cartridges although it seems to take a while. I hear a loud clunk, like a head load sound every few seconds as the orange LED on the front runs through a cycling pattern of blinking fast and then slower. After a few cycles of this, the green LED comes on and then I can sometimes read some data from the drive. I've got it hooked to a Linux box currently and I've seen a Mac partition table go by (which makes sense as this stuff was used in a print shop with a Macintosh). But after a few seconds of spinning, the drive appears to fault and goes back to the blinking orange LED again. After a little while of this, then it seems to just lock up... you can't eject the cartridge with the front panel button and the SCSI interface pretty much goes dead as the drive can no longer been seen by the host. I suspected the power supply in the enclosure it is mounted in so I have swapped that but no improvement. The original was drooping a little on +12 (down to 11.5v) and although that didn't seem like a huge issue, I have lots of supplies to substitute so I did. So, are there any common things that go wrong with these drives-- that were easily remedied? The heads look extremely fragile with a very tiny wire looped around the outter edge so I am not so excited about trying to clean them. The drive otherwise looks pretty clean inside... and the fact that I can read _some_ data suggests that there is life and something may just need cleaning, aligning or stopped from slipping. On the other hand, I am not so sure these drives were designed for field repair or service... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 16 07:31:43 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 08:31:43 -0400 Subject: Woz + VCF East In-Reply-To: <4DA955BA.2090208@snarc.net> References: <4DA955BA.2090208@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4DA98C2F.5000802@atarimuseum.com> That is one of the best t-shirts I've seen in a long time, two thumbs up!!! :-) Evan Koblentz wrote: > Nah, that subject line was just a teaser, Steve isn't coming to VCF > East -- this year -- but he does like our t-shirt! Check out this > screen capture of a Facebook exchange from just now: > http://www.snarc.net/woz2.jpg ..... come to VCF East and get your own! > > (Irony: the VCF site is down tonight. Sellam is working to fix it > pronto.) > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 10:52:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 11:52:59 -0400 Subject: Woz + VCF East In-Reply-To: <4DA955BA.2090208@snarc.net> References: <4DA955BA.2090208@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4DA9BB5B.80901@neurotica.com> On 4/16/11 4:39 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Nah, that subject line was just a teaser, Steve isn't coming to VCF East > -- this year -- but he does like our t-shirt! Check out this screen > capture of a Facebook exchange from just now: > http://www.snarc.net/woz2.jpg ..... come to VCF East and get your own! > > (Irony: the VCF site is down tonight. Sellam is working to fix it pronto.) Great shirt art! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 16 11:54:06 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 09:54:06 -0700 Subject: Gordon Bell paper on the history of CHM Message-ID: <4DA9C9AE.2010203@bitsavers.org> http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/147240/Bell_Origin_of_the_Computer_History_Museum_v2.pdf From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 11:50:17 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:50:17 +0200 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 10:25:13PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Gene Buckle writes: > > > You realize that you're interfering with his "open source is crap!" > > I never said open source is crap. If I thought that, why would I > recreate manx as an open source project? > > > narrative by dragging out facts 'n stuff, right? :) > > While it may be a fact that you *could* fix open source software > that's buggy because you have access to the source files, the > likelihood of anyone besides the original author doing this is low for > most open source software. Not reallty. My employer regularly sends patches back upstream for fixes (or extension) on quite a few open source projects. Even I've gotten patches sent to me for stuff I maintain (private project) and yes, the patches worked. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 11:48:21 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:48:21 +0200 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110416164821.GA13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 05:06:23PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Geoffrey Reed writes: > > > On 4/12/11 3:16 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > > > > Like most things in the world, you get what you pay for with open source. > > > > Some open source is crap, but much of it isn't, [...] > > I think you have that backwards. > > Either that or you *really* haven't spent much time looking at the > average open source project and only spent time looking at the good > ones you heard about by word of mouth. BTDT. One of many examples: HP-UX MCOE. The hardware (PA-RISC) is really nice. The kernel is already something out of the bloody 80s. What do you mean, you've got bugger all runtime tunables and twiddling most kernel parameters needs a kernel relink and reboot[0]? On a HA environment (ok, thats what test systems are for, but still). And don't get me started on the horrible crap that HP ships as userland. The default cc is a crippled K&R ... thingy. Ok, I get it, you are only supposed to use it for relinking the kernel and if you are silly enough to want to compile some C code that was written in the last 20 years, you are supposed to _buy_ the separate "ANSI C/C++ compiler". The system provided more binary is known to be broken since basically forever (feed it something with long lines or even binary and it will segfault). The system provided vi is a bad joke to anybody who spent some time with less backwards Unix systems in the last 10 years. And I have never seen such a horrible and convuluted hack to access ISO9660 filesystems (CDs/DVDs) before: IIRC (It's been a while) third party software running in user space, talking to the block device, re-exporting the contents as a special almost-but-not-quite-unlike local NFS server that you can mount. *eeeeeekk* Did I mention that the system tools are crap? The fastest way to unfuck the HP-UX userland is to install the GNU toolchain, including gcc. If it weren't for the nifty HA stuff in hardware and kernel as well as for MC/ServiceGuard (which works quite well), it would be total crap. And don't get me started on the (bloody expensive btw) commercial software for it. With pearls like this one: A GUI that claims to be for X11 ... only it was written by taking the Windows version and "porting it" (presumably, from the look of things, done by an overworked and underskilled intern) to X11 by compiling it against a library that emulates enough of the Windows build environment to get it to work on X11. The result is ... bloody damn unusable and of course the application still thinks it is running on Windows. And this is part of the reasons commercial, proprietary Unix is heading for extinction. > > At least with open source software, if something doesn't work as you think > > it should... You can fix it :) > > Sorry, but I don't buy this either. Most open source software is > inscrutable to anyone but the original authors or current maintainers. Yeah, so inscrutable that I was quickly able to add a feature (custom message ids) to slrn (news reader) by writing a small patch for it. And I'm definitely _not_ the worlds most awesome coder. > Try fixing something in gcc on your own without having worked on it > before, for instance. Well, gcc is an interesting choice as by its very nature it is very, very far from trivial. It currently supports 7 languages in the standard pack (plus another 8 not in the default build) as well as 20 different cpu architectures in the standard build (plus a ton more in different versions). That is not exactly what I would choose as a starter project in open source hacking. Kind regards, Alex. [0] Admittedly, the HP-UX 11i for Itanium improved here: down to IIRC less than 50% hard tunables (requiring kernel relink and reboot). -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 12:27:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:27:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for Multibus parts..... In-Reply-To: from "Martin Goldberg" at Apr 15, 11 02:16:24 am Message-ID: > > Have a friend looking for Multibus parts, told him I'd post here in > the hopes that someone here might be able to help it out. Here's his > request: > > "I need an extender board for a system that uses a multibus backplane. > (Multibus I, MBI, whatever you want to call it) I have a system that > I need to work on and obviously need one of these to work on the > boards while they're in the unit. Actually, you may not _need_ an extender. I've worked on plenty of devices for which I don't have the extender boards, and what I do is pull the board of interest and tack-solder short wires onto the ppoints I am interested in. Put the board back in place and monitor the free ends of the wires with 'scope or logic analyser. Then pull the board again and move the wires to new points, based on the resutls fo the first measurements. Normally it only takes me 2 or 3 'goes' to find the faulty IC. Obviously this doesn;t work for very high-speed stuff where the extra capacitance of the test wires would be an issue. But I think it might well be OK for most Multibus 1 stuff. > > Here's a link to a pic of one similar to what I need: > > http://www.vectorelect.com/Product/Extenders/Multibus.htm I've not followeed that link, but if that;'s a product that's still available, why not buy it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 12:34:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:34:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4DA8643B020000E40001D92D@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> from "Mark Csele" at Apr 15, 11 03:28:59 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks for the suggestions so far. I tried a few things with the = > following to report: > > I verified the copy of RT-11 on RX-01 floppy. It boots fine on the LSI-11 = > system it was built on, tried "BOOT RT11SJ" as well as with the "/FOREIGN" = > option and it ran fine on that system (which has an M7946 controller). = > The drive is configured for RX-01 mode only (since these are the only = > controllers I have in both Q-Bus and Unibus flavour). > > Now, put that same drive on the 11/34 CPU with an M7846 card. Checked the = > CPU carefully: NPG jumpers are all intact on the backplane (CA1-CA2) and = > all unused slot D's have a grant continuity card. Just to ensure it works = > I reconfigured the console for 9600 baud (originally 300) and ran a simple = > "echo" program loaded at 001000 which runs fine (so it can store programs = > in memory and the execute them). The system has loads of memory - three = > cards with 16K, 48KW, and 96kW on them - so I did a quick check at = > locations 100000 and 700000 and memory is certainly there. Some random thoughts What devices do you have in the 11/34 system? An RX11, obviously. A DL11-something (but what?) for the console port. Anything else? Obviously the console and the RX11 must be at the right I/O addresses for the system to get as far as it has. What about the interrupt vector settings? Are those correct. Could it be falling over when it enables interrupts on some device, the interurpt comes along and the vector is not what's expected so it goes to thw wrong routine. You have an M9301 at the CPU end of the bus. What, if any, terminator do you have at the other end? Unibus (unlike Q-bus, normally) is terminated at both ends. Could it be a bad memory location? RT11SJ doesn't need much RAM to boot, so perhaps you could try yor memory boards one at a time, each one set to start at location 0, and see if that helps. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 13:06:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 19:06:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <7b3b2d30fc5d8972a5ed686bf257d534@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 15, 11 03:55:47 pm Message-ID: > > On 2011 Apr 15, at 11:47 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> On 13/04/11 14:45, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> If someone tried to feed me that garbage in a school, I'd demand my > >>> money back. Bravo for trimming the fat from your stuff. > > > > Actually, that is minor compared to some of the garbage I was 'taught' > > at > > school. I fact I don;t think I ever had a clueful matehmatics of > > physics > > teacher. > > > > I think the wordst was when I was aksed to descrtivbe a method of > > measuring something (the capacitance of a capacitor). I did so (an AC > > bridge) and was told 'That is a compariston and not a measurement', I > > am > > still waiting for a definition of 'measurement' (or an esample of one) > > which > > does not involve a comaprison to a standard. > > I expect that what your instructor was getting at was that the use of Actualyl, I know exactly what the teacher wanted. He wanted me to regurgitate the method in the standard text book. A method involving a vriating reed relay, (frequency known) charging the capacitor from a DC supply and discharing it through a (milli)ammeter. This method (whcih si only found in school physics books :-)) has a numebr of systematic errors, not lreast it assumes the charging and discharign time constants are much less than the period of the relay vibration. This is not always the case... And I was not there to repeat the answers fro mthe textbook. I was there to learn physics, which means thinkign about the question. But anyway... if you look in any serious book on electrical measurements [1], you will find the bridge circuit desribed as a way of _measuring_ 'circuit constants'. [1] For example 'Measurements in Radio Engineering' by Fredrick Terman [2] [2] You do know who his is, right? > an AC bridge typically involves comparison with another C, which also Actually, it's possible to balance a R-C arm agains an L-R arm. Which means that you could use a stnadard inductor. Practiclaly, this is used ot measure inductance (against a known capacitor) becasue standard inductors are non-tirival to make reliably. > needs to be measured. It becomes a 'turtles all the way down' problem. Sure. However, if I ask 'how would you measure the width of a sheet of paper to an accuract of around 1%', I will bet everyone will say 'with a ruler'' That is comparing one length against another. > This would be in contrast to a solution which examines Cx in terms of > the definition of capacitance (time/charge) and breaks it down to more > fundamental/axiomatic measurement units (i.e.,time,mass), even though > this does involve comparison to some other standard. Sure. If the teacher had asked for a method of 'measuring capacitance against the fundamental SI standards' then that's a different question with a ddifferent answer. Had he commented on by bridge method and said something like 'OK, now do it without needing a known capacitor' that would be rasonable too. Btu to say 'That's not a measurement, it's a comparison' shoews, IMHO, a lack of understanding as to what a measurement actually is. > "That is a comparison and not a measurement" may not be a full > expression of the distinction, but I think your instructor had a point. I am still not convinced.... > > I'm not up to scratch on my measurement theory, what are the > fundamental standards these days?, there's oscillation of the cesium > atom for T, there was the Meter bar in Paris for D, but hasn't that When I was at school. 'lenght' was defiend in terms of the wavelngth of some spectral line (I forget which one). I think that now, c (seped of light) has a defined value, and that lenght is defined from the distance light travels in a certian time. Mass is still (AFAIK) based on a standard prototpye (it's the only unit that is) The electrical unit that was picked is the ampere, defined in terms of the force betwene '2 infintiely long, infinitley thin wires'. Of course practiually, toyou use coils and correct geometrically. I always thought the colomb (being essentially a number of electrons) was a more fundamental unit but anyway. And the volt is easier to determine accurately, using a microwave-excited josephson junction (I did this experiment at university, it's tricky to get it to work, but if you get the 'votlage staircase' then the steps are the right size). I think the mole is defined from the number of attons in a certain mass of a certain isotope of an certain element (carbon 12 IIRC) The kelvin is defind in terms of the triple point of water (or it was when I learnt such things). My Rubber Book is ytears out of date, so some of those may have changed -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 12:47:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:47:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DA8A684.6060400@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Apr 15, 11 04:11:48 pm Message-ID: > > And all these years later, I still don't understand why research and > > schoolwork are not allowed in the library. > > > > "No fighting in the war room!" > > I would've approached it in a different way. I would have talked back. > I would have been sent to the principal. The principal *might* have I used a rather more productive system. I had a word with one of the teachers. I pointed out I';d jsut been thrown out of the library. Said teacher knew I was not the sort of person to damage books or disrupt other people working and investigated the matter for me. Apparently thate was a reason for the rule : The library was not large enoguh for _all_ the students to be in it at the same time, so the only people who could be there wwre those who needed to use the books for official school work. Siad teacher agreeded that the rule was being misapplied and got it changed (at least for me) that I could go in the library and read whatever books I wanted to, provided I was not preventing somebody who had official work to do from doing it. That seemed highly reasonable (and during all my time at the schook, there were never enough people in the library that they had to apply that rule). > given me detention, in which case my father would have dropped our > lawyers on the school. I have often thoguht my parents should ahve sued the school for not providing an adequate education. As I said, I taught myself all the good bits... -tony From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Apr 16 13:26:06 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:26:06 -0400 Subject: Avail IBM Series 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201104161826.p3GIQMLt032044@billY.EZWIND.NET> I am accepting reasonable offers for the following entire IBM Series 1 system: http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/Series1/ If no one is interested I will donate it to MARCH's museum instead. Contact me directly by email When cabled together this system would I believe function as a document storage system and communications for a medical facility. Anyone who knows a thing or two about the Series 1 is welcome to have access, it's set up and power is available until at least July. After that I have to move it. I wish I had more time for it myself. So far I have un-parked the 4962 hard drive, wired the component cables, and tried to access the control panel. I have a limited knowledge of IBM minicomputers, just enough to know that these kinds of minicomputers don't just power up and say READY when you attach a monitor to them. In short the operational condition is unknown. The individual components power up. Anyway, here is a list of the components. qty) Description 2) 6' IBM 4997 Rack Units with shelves to house the processor and peripherals. 1) IBM 4956 Processor 1) Cambex Corp Model 80810 2-tape drive storage device (no tapes) 1) IBM 4962 8" disk drive / Hard Drive (w/ 3 boxes of maint. software) 1) IBM 4967 Hard drive (69kg) 1) IBM 4963 Hard drive (55kg) 1) IBM 4963A Hard drive (55kg) 1) IBM 4978 display station and keyboard (display is bad?) 12) Series I system software/hardware manuals "standard 3-ring binder sized" 20) Series I system software/hardware manuals (tall, blue, with IBM written on them) There is documentation for all components, plus service logs, software documentation, installation instructions, etc. Pretty complete. Misc. papers and other documentation and receipts. 3 boxes of IBM software on 8" disks, including diagnostics for hardware. 1 box of cables and jacks for additional display stations/terminals 1 box of printer ribbons (no printer) probably some product literature and period IBM sales circulars, etc. I believe I also have the modem for this system. The items are in Wilmington, Delaware minutes from rt 95, about an hour north of Baltimore, 25 minutes south of Phila Airport. Please contact me directly, reasonable offers accepted. I will avoid selling individual components. Pick up preferred, items are near loading area. Bill From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 16 14:41:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 12:41:26 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: , , <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> I've lost the original thread on this, but ISTR that the subject thread wasn't terribly relevant. I was thinking about Fred's statement quoting the business about "nobody programs today, nor ever will program" in assembly again. To a certain extent, save for a few exceptions (embedded, low-cost devices, special purpose-built hardware, etc.) I think it's probably true. Consider: When was the last HP-16C calculator sold? Why did HP quit selling it, but still sells the HP-12C financial calculator to this day? It would seem that if there were really a market, the 12C chassis could be reprogrammed to continue the 16C line. But it's not- -because few need to sit over a dump and work out what went wrong. Because nobody works at that level any longer; it would not be a profitable product for HP. I can remember when our department at work got ONE TI SR-22 calculator and how much easier it made calculating those 48-bit addresses and converting between bit, byte, halfword and word addresses. As much as I hate to admit it, the quote from Fred is probably closer to the truth than I'd care to admit. FWIW, I use my 16C practically every day. But I'm old. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 14:48:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:48:30 -0400 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DA9F28E.50506@neurotica.com> On 4/16/11 3:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've lost the original thread on this, but ISTR that the subject > thread wasn't terribly relevant. > > I was thinking about Fred's statement quoting the business about > "nobody programs today, nor ever will program" in assembly again. > > To a certain extent, save for a few exceptions (embedded, low-cost > devices, special purpose-built hardware, etc.) I think it's probably > true. Those applications are widespread; there are considerably more embedded computers in the world than non-embedded. Further, compiler writers need to know what their software is supposed to spit out. I'd not worry too much about it...People don't much write *application* software in assembler anymore, they haven't in a very long time, but who cares? > Consider: When was the last HP-16C calculator sold? Why did HP quit > selling it, but still sells the HP-12C financial calculator to this > day? It would seem that if there were really a market, the 12C > chassis could be reprogrammed to continue the 16C line. But it's not- > -because few need to sit over a dump and work out what went wrong. > Because nobody works at that level any longer; it would not be a > profitable product for HP. > > I can remember when our department at work got ONE TI SR-22 > calculator and how much easier it made calculating those 48-bit > addresses and converting between bit, byte, halfword and word > addresses. > > As much as I hate to admit it, the quote from Fred is probably closer > to the truth than I'd care to admit. > > FWIW, I use my 16C practically every day. But I'm old. There's one simple reason why HP 16C calculators fetch many hundreds of dollars on eBay today, every single time: they're still in demand. HP seems to enjoy discontinuing products while there's still demand. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 16 14:51:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 12:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110412124012.G18923@shell.lmi.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> <20110411154721.N84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B3AB.7030506@neurotica.com> <20110412124012.G18923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110416125045.B75924@shell.lmi.net> > > > Wow, clueless. This looks like a perfect example of "those who can, do, > > > while those who can't, get tenure". a classic vomputer variant: Those who can, do. Those who can't, simulate. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 14:54:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:54:10 -0400 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110416125045.B75924@shell.lmi.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3105C.8624.1355499@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA382BF.4020604@neurotica.com> <20110411154721.N84642@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3B3AB.7030506@neurotica.com> <20110412124012.G18923@shell.lmi.net> <20110416125045.B75924@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA9F3E2.2010905@neurotica.com> On 4/16/11 3:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Wow, clueless. This looks like a perfect example of "those who can, do, >>>> while those who can't, get tenure". > > a classic vomputer variant: > Those who can, do. > Those who can't, simulate. [stands up, applauds] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 14:58:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 20:58:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 16, 11 12:41:26 pm Message-ID: > Consider: When was the last HP-16C calculator sold? Why did HP quit > selling it, but still sells the HP-12C financial calculator to this > day? It would seem that if there were really a market, the 12C YEs, but they discontinuesd the 11C and 15C 'scientific' calculators too, andI've yet to hear that 'trigonometry is dead' :-) More eriosuly, many later HP calcualtors (inclduing all the RPL models) have the normal bitwise functions, shifts, rotates, etc. Yes, the 16C has a few more, but the ones on a 48, say, do all that most low-level programmers would need. And yes, I do use an RPL calculator for that sort of thing sometimes. The unlimited stack is very useful. I recently wrote an RPL program which contains none of the normal '4 functtionms' or any of the trigonometric, logartihmic, etc functions. Just a lot of ANDs and ORs, etc. > chassis could be reprogrammed to continue the 16C line. But it's not- Almost certainly iy could. The original Voyager machines contained 2 chips. A NUT CPU (which also contains the keyboiard interface) and an R2D2 (ROM/RAM/Display Driver). The latter is what was different between the various models. IIRC, the 15C had a 3rd chip to give it more ROM (and RAM?), this was an R2D2 with the display driver seciton disabled I think > -because few need to sit over a dump and work out what went wrong. > Because nobody works at that level any longer; it would not be a > profitable product for HP. > FWIW, I use my 16C practically every day. But I'm old. So do I... I even had to repair it (dry joint on one pin of the R2D2) a couple of months back. -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 15:04:34 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 21:04:34 +0100 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Thankfully I dont think thats too true, I am one of the ops lurking in ##asm on freenode we get noobs most weeks/days trying to do stuff. I still do embedded now and again Dave Caroline On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 8:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've lost the original thread on this, but ISTR that the subject > thread wasn't terribly relevant. > > I was thinking about Fred's statement quoting the business about > "nobody programs today, nor ever will program" in assembly again. > > To a certain extent, save for a few exceptions (embedded, low-cost > devices, special purpose-built hardware, etc.) I think it's probably > true. > > Consider: ?When was the last HP-16C calculator sold? ?Why did HP quit > selling it, but still sells the HP-12C financial calculator to this > day? ?It would seem that if there were really a market, the 12C > chassis could be reprogrammed to continue the 16C line. ?But it's not- > -because few need to sit over a dump and work out what went wrong. > Because nobody works at that level any longer; it would not be a > profitable product for HP. > > I can remember when our department at work got ONE TI SR-22 > calculator and how much easier it made calculating those 48-bit > addresses and converting between bit, byte, halfword and word > addresses. > > As much as I hate to admit it, the quote from Fred is probably closer > to the truth than I'd care to admit. > > FWIW, I use my 16C practically every day. ?But I'm old. > > --Chuck > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 16 15:13:59 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 16, 11 12:41:26 pm" Message-ID: <201104162013.p3GKDxVM018132@floodgap.com> > To a certain extent, save for a few exceptions (embedded, low-cost > devices, special purpose-built hardware, etc.) I think it's probably > true. Hmm. I'm writing AltiVec assembly to speed up media decoding on my Power Mac. But then I'm weird. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I know we can make it together! -- "Shogo" --------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 16 15:20:16 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> from Alexander Schreiber at "Apr 16, 11 06:50:17 pm" Message-ID: <201104162020.p3GKKGUs018152@floodgap.com> > Not reallty. My employer regularly sends patches back upstream for fixes > (or extension) on quite a few open source projects. Even I've gotten patches > sent to me for stuff I maintain (private project) and yes, the patches worked. I routinely accept patches for TTYtter, and I've sent my Mozilla patches back upstream (but Mozilla, in typical fashion, isn't interested in anything that doesn't allow them to out-Chrome Chrome). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin ------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 16 15:24:59 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110416130221.E75924@shell.lmi.net> Nietzsche is dead, too. On Sat, 16 Apr 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've lost the original thread on this, but ISTR that the subject > thread wasn't terribly relevant. IIRC, it was in one of the more distant forks of the "Columbia Terminates Kermit" thread. > I was thinking about Fred's statement quoting the business about > "nobody programs today, nor ever will program" in assembly again. It was Clancy and Harvey, who took over the lower division undergraduate CS program at UC Berkeley. They said, while pushing SCHEME (a LISP variant), "Nobody programs in assembly any more, nor ever will again." I don't remember which one of them said it, nor even which of them is which. Does conflating them signify contempt? > To a certain extent, save for a few exceptions (embedded, low-cost > devices, special purpose-built hardware, etc.) I think it's probably > true. . . . and compiler writing, and speeding up an OS enough that it can get out of its own way (can the interrupt handler complete before the next interrupt? or will we fill the stack with interruptions of interruptions?) Yes, it is no longer "mainstream". But, I contend that it is a critically essential niche, and loss of it, just because it is a small niche would be disastrous. But, most of all, I REFUSE to accept the truth of it. even when the college found out that I have an MLIS, cancelled my Assembly Language class, and reassigned me to be a librarian :-( > Consider: When was the last HP-16C calculator sold? Why did HP quit > selling it, but still sells the HP-12C financial calculator to this > day? It would seem that if there were really a market, the 12C > chassis could be reprogrammed to continue the 16C line. But it's not- > -because few need to sit over a dump and work out what went wrong. > Because nobody works at that level any longer; it would not be a > profitable product for HP. The few that do, scramble to get certain things on eBay. In addition, TI "Programmer" (both variants) Casio CFX-40, CFX-400 scientific calculator watch (wow those go for a lot on eBay!) Fortunately MOST "scientific" calculators have at least some number base capabilities > As much as I hate to admit it, the quote from Fred is probably closer > to the truth than I'd care to admit. As we move from being a production economy to an almost entirely consumer economy, invention, creation, development, understanding, and even general education are becoming less "valued". > FWIW, I use my 16C practically every day. But I'm old. I guess that it's a good thing that we will be dead before the handbasket reaches hell. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 15:32:35 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:32:35 +0200 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quickcompilers) In-Reply-To: References: <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <20110416203235.GC13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 04:33:17PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36 at ANTONIOPC>, > writes: > > > If you mean "a significant amount of stuff out there is essentially > > unmaintainable" > > you are almost certainly correct. But why is that such a big deal? > > Its not a big deal to me personally, but its important to keep in mind > when people make the claim that *most* open source code is high > quality. Ok, _that_ claim is, admittedly, silly. There _is_ a lot of very high quality open source out there, definitely, It such isn't the majority of open source code in existence. Hey, anything written in PHP already has a 99.9% chance of being utter crap to begin with ;-) But the upside is, again: with open source, even if the code is crap, you can actually take a look at the source, see that it is hopeless and move on to something that works (or build it yourself) instead of buying lots of duck tape, baling wire and chewing gum to keep the expensive "enterprise solution" somehow from _visibly_ shitting over itself on a regular basis. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 15:35:25 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:35:25 +0200 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quickcompilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA6F5A8.3000103@neurotica.com> References: <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36@ANTONIOPC> <4DA6F5A8.3000103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110416203525.GD13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 09:24:56AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/13/11 6:33 PM, Richard wrote: > >>If you mean "a significant amount of stuff out there is essentially > >>unmaintainable" > >>you are almost certainly correct. But why is that such a big deal? > > > >Its not a big deal to me personally, but its important to keep in mind > >when people make the claim that *most* open source code is high > >quality. > > > >It isn't. > > Provide proof of this assertion, or it's bull. As much as I'm a believer in open source, I do have to agree that there is a lot of crappy open source code as well. Exhibit A: pretty much anything written in PHP. As well as PHP itself. Not that I haven't seen worse things from commercial "scripting languages", mind you ;-) On the other hand, there is also a _lot_ of very high quality code, especially in the less shiny infrastructure area. I'd take PostgreSQL over Orrible any day, just for starters. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 15:40:57 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:40:57 +0200 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110416204056.GE13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 12:41:26PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've lost the original thread on this, but ISTR that the subject > thread wasn't terribly relevant. > > I was thinking about Fred's statement quoting the business about > "nobody programs today, nor ever will program" in assembly again. > > To a certain extent, save for a few exceptions (embedded, low-cost > devices, special purpose-built hardware, etc.) I think it's probably > true. Well, as usually that depends on what you are looking at. Tricky low level code, especially within or very close to the operating system kernel? There's bound to be some assembly in use. Big, complex applications? Very, very unlikely. There are still people coding the hell out of assembler for fun, IIRC the "small demo" scene is still alive. Small micro controllers? Very good chance of finding assembler code in use, especially if clock speed, RAM and flash are very tight. And there are untold millions of the little things in use, far more than workstations, servers and smartphones together. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 16 16:07:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:07:24 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <20110416130221.E75924@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110416130221.E75924@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DA9A29C.23622.1006E7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2011 at 13:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, most of all, I REFUSE to accept the truth of it. > even when the college found out that I have an MLIS, cancelled my > Assembly Language class, and reassigned me to be a librarian :-( Not meaning to be facetious, but consider yourself to be fortunate. A good friend with her PhD in Library Science has been existing more or less had-to-mouth for at least the last decade working for a contractor to the state as a research assistant on the drugs task force. She'd love a library position, but hasn't had much luck. Lately, she's been understating her education, to avoid the "we can't afford to pay for your degree" answers. One of the biggest lies in academia is that a more advanced degree implies more job opportunies and advancement. > I guess that it's a good thing that we will be dead before the > handbasket reaches hell. We can but hope, but it doesn't look too promising when two of the top prime-time TV programs are "The Biggest Loser" and "Are You Smarter Than a Fifth-Grader?" --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 16:17:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:17:10 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 mockups? In-Reply-To: <4DA5C0B3.5000002@attglobal.net> References: <4DA2E6A0.7040600@compsys.to> <4DA3100F.8040901@neurotica.com> <4DA39072.2040406@compsys.to> <4DA3AD8F.5010408@neurotica.com> <4DA3B71E.8040609@compsys.to> <4DA4A3A1.1050601@gmail.com> <4DA50CC0.80100@compsys.to> <20110413112359.GM2239@n0jcf.net> <4DA5C0B3.5000002@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4DAA0756.3030507@neurotica.com> On 4/13/11 11:26 AM, Barry L. Kline wrote: >> On Tuesday (04/12/2011 at 10:38PM -0400), Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> I would rather not be using Windows, but my son provides >>> my support and will only help if I use Windows. He has >>> provided a system for both of his parents, so we don't >>> tend to insist on Unix or some other operating system. >> >> Why does Mickey Rooney come to mind here? > > Forcing you to use Windows? This clearly is a sign of parent abuse! Absolutely. Jerome, I'm certain any number of people here would help you out in the direction of something a bit more civilized and predictable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 16:19:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:19:42 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DAA07EE.2090702@neurotica.com> On 4/13/11 12:31 PM, Richard wrote: > Instead of increasing > single core speeds, CPUs are incorporating more processor cores. In > order to automagically get speedups now your code has to be > parallelizable by the compiler tool chain. Most code isn't structured > this way. Autoparallelizing compilers have been around for a couple of decades now. Of course one needs to analyze their feedback and occasionally restructure loops and such to make them parallelizable, but such compilers often give excellent feedback about it. Explicitly threading code isn't the only way to take advantage of multiple processors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 16 16:33:03 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA9A29C.23622.1006E7C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110416130221.E75924@shell.lmi.net> <4DA9A29C.23622.1006E7C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110416141859.R75924@shell.lmi.net> > > But, most of all, I REFUSE to accept the truth of it. > > even when the college found out that I have an MLIS, cancelled my > > Assembly Language class, and reassigned me to be a librarian :-( On Sat, 16 Apr 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Not meaning to be facetious, but consider yourself to be fortunate. We still have a union. sorta. In the upcoming contract renegotiations, the district plans to reduce wages, increase workload, reduce benefits, eliminate retirement benefits (hopefully they will not succeed in taking them away from those already retired), and convert librarians from faculty to "clerical staff" (change from 10 months per year to 12 months, from 30 hours per week to 40, and major pay decrease). There will be a lot of people retiring suddenly. I NOW have the most seniority of anybody with credentials in CS, CIS, and Library. Good thing that the district doesn't know about my credential-ability in photography, auto repair, and small business management. I do NOT recommend that your friend apply here. > One of the biggest lies in academia is that a more advanced degree > implies more job opportunies and advancement. In 1968 (during the "collapse of aerospace", I got a job with an on-site contractor at GSFC (building 26). I won the job over people much more qualified, because the same company ran the photo lab in the National Space Sciences Data Center, and they figured that if things got worse they could transfer me to the darkroom. But, most of all, I might still be gruntled if they hadn't discontinued the assembly language course. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com 4.32 semesters to go, unless the new contract . . . From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Apr 16 16:50:11 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:50:11 -0400 Subject: Teletypes Available @ InfoAge in Wall, NJ USA Message-ID: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> A large number of ASR 33's, and various other types of Teletypes and other brands are available for purchase. Proceeds go to our clubs' computer museum located at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, NJ USA. This is the same location as the Vintage Computer Festival planned for this May 14th/15th. Contact me directly if interested with an offer/questions/trades/your contact info. We are a computer history group, we already have enough teletypes for our own use. Some of these look bad on the outside, but most have been found to be serviceable or good for parts at least, just a little dusty and external grime. Shipping is possible but pickup is preferred. Again, all proceeds will go to our museum budget. We need shelves and pallets, book cases, paint, display materials, printing costs, etc. We're not yet a 501C, but I hope we'll have this done by year's end. http://www.midatlanticretro.org/teletypes/ Thanks Bill Degnan V.P. Midatlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 16 16:56:41 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 14:56:41 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA9F28E.50506@neurotica.com> References: , , <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA9F28E.50506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DAA1099.7070805@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > There's one simple reason why HP 16C calculators fetch many hundreds > of dollars on eBay today, every single time: they're still in demand. > HP seems to enjoy discontinuing products while there's still demand. That only demonstrates that there may be demand for a few hundred units. It doesn't prove that there is demand for tens of thousands of units. From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Apr 16 16:59:10 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:59:10 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 - question about powering reader Message-ID: <201104162159.p3GLxRp3039472@billY.EZWIND.NET> [this is a crosspost/copy of message to greenkeys list] Hi I have been able to get my PDP 11/05 to print "hello world" by entering a short program into the toggle switches. I can simultaneously get the punch to print if I enable it. The text is actually garbled (TE]HJVYRTD), but I assume I just have to make an adjustment to the parity/stop bits or related. At least it's consistent. But the reason I am writing is to see if I can help with the reader. When I load and run the bootstrap loader the reader does not attempt to read a bootstrap tape either automatically or by pressing start. I think that's because the reader is not getting power. I can't get it to do anything in local mode or line mode. I have painstakingly traced the wires to get a good idea of the modifications made to the reader control. It appears that two of the wires coming from the reader are diverted to run through a 24V transformer (?) with a 0.5 uF 47 on top that is part of the reader control mod, and then exit the teletype . http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/with_PandB_JR-1000_pic2.jpg On the other end the wires have round screw post connectors as if they could connect to a ground post or power supply. Pics below. http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/with_PandB_JR-1000_red-black-leads.jpg Any ideas where these would be plugged in given the photos below? I don't think the two wires are supposed to be plugged into pins 4 and 6 of the mate-and-lock connector coming from the pdp 11. I am pretty sure 4 and 6 are for a high-speed reader and have nothing to do with the TTY circuits. http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/PandB_JR-1000.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/with_PandB_JR-1000_resistor_20mA.jpg I am working to figure this out on my own, but I don't have much experience in this area! http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/PandB_terminalstrip4.jpg FYI - The lines for the receive/send I must be close. I read that there was a power supply for the reader on some asr 33's, Do I need a 24V power source for the reader? Thanks in advance for any ideas/tips. Bill From legalize at xmission.com Sat Apr 16 17:10:49 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:10:49 -0600 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA9A29C.23622.1006E7C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110416130221.E75924@shell.lmi.net> <4DA9A29C.23622.1006E7C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4DA9A29C.23622.1006E7C at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > One of the biggest lies in academia is that a more advanced degree > implies more job opportunies and advancement. That's because academia doesn't understand supply and demand because tenure and the whole university/academia mechanism insulates them from market realities. If there's a worldwide demand for 10 people with advanced degrees in library sciences and universities produce 100 people with those degrees, 90% of them should expect not to get a job. If the only reason you went to University was to earn more money, then you should have saved your tuition fees and learned to sell used cars instead. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spc at conman.org Sat Apr 16 17:13:08 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:13:08 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quickcompilers) In-Reply-To: <20110416203235.GC13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36@ANTONIOPC> <20110416203235.GC13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20110416221308.GC32539@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Alexander Schreiber once stated: > On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 04:33:17PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > > > In article <9AADCE11E0DD44EA9EAB11392540FA36 at ANTONIOPC>, > > writes: > > > > > If you mean "a significant amount of stuff out there is essentially > > > unmaintainable" > > > you are almost certainly correct. But why is that such a big deal? > > > > Its not a big deal to me personally, but its important to keep in mind > > when people make the claim that *most* open source code is high > > quality. > > Ok, _that_ claim is, admittedly, silly. There _is_ a lot of very high > quality open source out there, definitely, It such isn't the majority > of open source code in existence. Hey, anything written in PHP already > has a 99.9% chance of being utter crap to begin with ;-) > > But the upside is, again: with open source, even if the code is crap, you > can actually take a look at the source, see that it is hopeless and move > on to something that works (or build it yourself) instead of buying lots > of duck tape, baling wire and chewing gum to keep the expensive "enterprise > solution" somehow from _visibly_ shitting over itself on a regular basis. Agree. At work [1] we had two projects that needed a DNS resolving library and settled on C-Ares (one of the half dozen DNS resolving libraries out there). Total crap. We needed to hack in support for the DNS record type we were dealing with [2] and even then, it's networking model did not match the rest of the programs (there were two projects that needed it). I spent a weekend writing my own DNS resolving library and released it as open source [3], thus improving the lot (and by using my DNS library, the runtime memory usage in one program dropped from 15M to 400K). Also at work, we get to use a commercial SS7 stack that was first developed in the late 80s. It too, is total crap (the documentation says it's thread safe, but it's not; what little source we do have was so badly written that a simple (but tedious) change improved performance) but since we don't have the source code, we can't fix it. And our company paid an insane amount of money for this "commercial quality" code base. And our lead developer, who is NOT a fan of open source for the most part, constantly bitches about the "kwalitee" of the C/C++ compiler we're using (and wishes we could use GCC). -spc (Fun times ... ) [1] implementing the call processing features (SS7) for cell phones. [2] NAPTR (RFC-1348)---I did not know DNS was used in call processing for caller ID information. [3] http://www.conman.org/software/spcdns/ It's in C99 [4] [4] Which is more than 10 years old, so probably on topic for this list 8-P From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 16 17:44:17 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:44:17 -0500 Subject: Teletypes Available @ InfoAge in Wall, NJ USA In-Reply-To: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: Hi Bill, Ill go $100 for unit in P1010012.JPG, Don't tear the paper out - did you see the last printing APPLE V1.00 cool Randy rdawson at ieee.org > Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 17:50:11 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: billdeg at degnanco.com > Subject: Teletypes Available @ InfoAge in Wall, NJ USA > > A large number of ASR 33's, and various other types of Teletypes and > other brands are available for purchase. Proceeds go to our clubs' > computer museum located at the InfoAge Science Center in Wall, NJ > USA. This is the same location as the Vintage Computer Festival > planned for this May 14th/15th. > > Contact me directly if interested with an offer/questions/trades/your > contact info. We are a computer history group, we already have > enough teletypes for our own use. Some of these look bad on the > outside, but most have been found to be serviceable or good for parts > at least, just a little dusty and external grime. Shipping is > possible but pickup is preferred. Again, all proceeds will go to > our museum budget. We need shelves and pallets, book cases, paint, > display materials, printing costs, etc. We're not yet a 501C, but I > hope we'll have this done by year's end. > > http://www.midatlanticretro.org/teletypes/ > > Thanks > > Bill Degnan > V.P. > Midatlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 17:44:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:44:34 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7b3b2d30fc5d8972a5ed686bf257d534@cs.ubc.ca> <4DA8E546.8030404@neurotica.com> <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> On 4/15/11 9:18 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > We all agree there are always comparisons to some reference or other, > but the point I was attempting to make of the distinction between > approaches remains. The calculable capacitor situation relies on another > definition of C to calculably take the measurement back to that of the > more fundamental measurement of distance, as opposed to simply > calibrating it as another C (more turtles). Ahh ok, I understand what you mean now. I once had an argument with a fellow who didn't believe potentiometric voltage measurement systems ever had any value, because there have been "multimeters", VOMs and VTVMs for many decades. "Why do all that comparison stuff with standard cells when you can just MEASURE the damn thing?" he asked. He didn't understand that there's a voltage reference of one sort or another inside every VOM and VTVM. Just what does constitute an LSB interval in that DVM's ADC, anyway? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 17:49:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:49:21 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DA8F72B.6050602@philpem.me.uk> References: , <523e612afae4c5dc77c81bbe414e72d4@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DA4B208.4010900@neurotica.com> <4DA453BC.21208.1244171@cclist.sydex.com> <4DA4C3A2.1020307@bitsavers.org> <4DA4C4E6.9080807@neurotica.com> <4DA5BB9E.1030907@verizon.net> <20110413112804.H61701@shell.lmi.net> <4DA7A1AA.5090501@philpem.me.uk> <4DA7E5F8.8080402@brouhaha.com> <4DA8F72B.6050602@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DAA1CF1.7070609@neurotica.com> On 4/15/11 9:55 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> Now I end up wiping and reinstalling Ubuntu (or at least >>> obliterating ~/ ) every six months or so. >> That's odd; I wonder what's doing that to you. > > I think it's just GNOME's Gconf configuration database and the MIME-type > translations getting filled with junk. That and my Firefox user profile > -- I traced part of the slowdown to a misbehaving Firefox extension, and > another part of it to a Greasemonkey script which was forcing refreshes > every couple of minutes. Firefox becoming constipated certainly shouldn't necessitate an OS reinstall though, right? If all else fails, just delete the entire profile from ~/.mozilla/firefox/ and all state is gone, yes? > Also, Firefox really doesn't like it when you have four windows open, > with ~30 tabs open in each window... That's really not a big deal for Firefox. I regularly have 3-4x that, for weeks at a time. I have 3x that right now. It eats a good bit of memory doing that, but FF4 seems to have improved that somewhat. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 17:52:51 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 00:52:51 +0200 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick In-Reply-To: References: <701255.78596.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110416225251.GF13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 02:39:40PM -0700, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 4/13/11 1:07 PM, "geoffrey oltmans" wrote: > > > Really? Is Gimp better quality than Photoshop or Aperture? If you were doing > > photo work for a living would you bet your paycheck on it? I wouldn't. You may > > not always get what you pay for with commercial software, but there are plenty > > of instances where it is true. There are plenty of instances of half-baked OSS > > solutions like Gimp to compete with commercial apps. > > > > > While Gimp is not the most polished image manipulation app out there, it is > hardly unusable. Currently Gimp reminds me, functionality wise of photoshop > from 5-7 years ago, it certainly is faster and far less bloated than the > current release of Photoshop (which I wouldn't use except I got in an > auction lot as I couldn't afford it). I've used Gimp, and the biggest > problem that others (and I have had) is that it does not have native support > for the "raw" format that my camera puts out. But there is the gimp-dcraw plugin, so it should be able to deal with RAW files. I haven't used the gimp-dcraw plugin, but I found dcraw (via the ufraw frontend) to be quite useful. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 16 18:28:13 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:28:13 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DAA260D.8050406@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can remember when our department at work got ONE TI SR-22 > calculator and how much easier it made calculating those 48-bit > addresses and converting between bit, byte, halfword and word > addresses. Which 48-bit machine was that? From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 18:26:18 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 01:26:18 +0200 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <201104110311.p3B3BFR7016242@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20110416232618.GG13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 11:19:50PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > This is sad, though the project is going open source, but it would be > > nice to see someone continue the Kermit name. Ed's just the messenger; > > don't contact him about Kermit. > > To be realistic here - how much does Kermit really matter in today's > IT environment, other that to to people like us? I use it to talk to the LOM of my Sun V100 (sitting in the IKEA shelf behind me, earning its electricity as backup, squid and NTP server). It is also my first choice if I have to talk via serial port to some device that speaks a human readable protocol atop serial. It Just Works (TM). Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Sat Apr 16 18:34:31 2011 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 19:34:31 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: References: <4DA8643B020000E40001D92D@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20110416193153.02435050@verizon.net> I seem to remember that with the LSI-11 series the BDV11 bootstrap would not work with the 11/23 cpu, it worked with the 11/03 cpu, but there was something different about the two that caused the bootstrap code in the BDV11 to halt at some location. Just like you are experiencing. Just a thought. At 01:34 PM 4/16/2011, you wrote: > > > > Thanks for the suggestions so far. I tried a few things with the = > > following to report: > > > > I verified the copy of RT-11 on RX-01 floppy. It boots fine on > the LSI-11 = > > system it was built on, tried "BOOT RT11SJ" as well as with the > "/FOREIGN" = > > option and it ran fine on that system (which has an M7946 controller). = > > The drive is configured for RX-01 mode only (since these are the only = > > controllers I have in both Q-Bus and Unibus flavour). > > > > Now, put that same drive on the 11/34 CPU with an M7846 > card. Checked the = > > CPU carefully: NPG jumpers are all intact on the backplane (CA1-CA2) and = > > all unused slot D's have a grant continuity card. Just to ensure > it works = > > I reconfigured the console for 9600 baud (originally 300) and ran > a simple = > > "echo" program loaded at 001000 which runs fine (so it can store programs = > > in memory and the execute them). The system has loads of memory - three = > > cards with 16K, 48KW, and 96kW on them - so I did a quick check at = > > locations 100000 and 700000 and memory is certainly there. > >Some random thoughts > >What devices do you have in the 11/34 system? An RX11, obviously. A >DL11-something (but what?) for the console port. Anything else? > >Obviously the console and the RX11 must be at the right I/O addresses for >the system to get as far as it has. What about the interrupt vector >settings? Are those correct. Could it be falling over when it enables >interrupts on some device, the interurpt comes along and the vector is >not what's expected so it goes to thw wrong routine. > >You have an M9301 at the CPU end of the bus. What, if any, terminator do >you have at the other end? Unibus (unlike Q-bus, normally) is terminated >at both ends. > >Could it be a bad memory location? RT11SJ doesn't need much RAM to boot, >so perhaps you could try yor memory boards one at a time, each one set to >start at location 0, and see if that helps. > >-tony From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 18:30:21 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 01:30:21 +0200 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <718603.30741.qm@web121609.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4DA34CD5.9050207@neurotica.com> <718603.30741.qm@web121609.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110416233020.GH13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:51:17AM -0700, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- On Mon, 4/11/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > If you're talking about xmodem/ymodem, you're likely > > talking about installing firmware. I'm talking about > > using kermit (the program, not the file transfer protocol) > > to interact with embedded machines for interactive > > configuration and/or debugging. This is extremely > > common. > > > > Yes - using kermit as a terminal emulator is very common. It can be > less of a pain to work with than minicom. Amen to that. I started with using minicom, then discovered kermit (or ckermit as this particular package was called) and never looked back. Talk to the LOM of my Sun V100, talk to the serial (and only) console of my PCEngines Alix boards ... it is simple and It Just Works (TM) ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 16 18:48:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:48:43 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DAA260D.8050406@brouhaha.com> References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DAA260D.8050406@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DA9C86B.26662.1941C35@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2011 at 16:28, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I can remember when our department at work got ONE TI SR-22 > > calculator and how much easier it made calculating those 48-bit > > addresses and converting between bit, byte, halfword and word > > addresses. > Which 48-bit machine was that? It was a 64-bit machine, a CDC STAR-100; addresses were packed into the lower 48 bits of a word, with the vector length packed into the upper 16. A tidbit that comes to mind was that it was possible for a single instruciton to fault for 9 separate pages before it could start. When run with 65KW pages, that was more than the maximum physical memory configuration possible... --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 16 18:52:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:52:47 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Apr 2011 at 18:44, Dave McGuire wrote: > I once had an argument with a fellow who didn't believe > potentiometric voltage measurement systems ever had any value, because > there have been "multimeters", VOMs and VTVMs for many decades. "Why > do all that comparison stuff with standard cells when you can just > MEASURE the damn thing?" he asked. He didn't understand that there's > a voltage reference of one sort or another inside every VOM and VTVM. He obviously never had a lab course in electrical measurements. From my college experience, I grew to hate wall galvanometers. That summer, I wound up on a job that required me to haul around a portable potentiometer doing endless calibrations... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 19:08:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 20:08:30 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> On 4/16/11 7:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I once had an argument with a fellow who didn't believe >> potentiometric voltage measurement systems ever had any value, because >> there have been "multimeters", VOMs and VTVMs for many decades. "Why >> do all that comparison stuff with standard cells when you can just >> MEASURE the damn thing?" he asked. He didn't understand that there's >> a voltage reference of one sort or another inside every VOM and VTVM. > > He obviously never had a lab course in electrical measurements. No, but he had an MCSE, therefore he was an expert in all things technical. *snicker* > From my college experience, I grew to hate wall galvanometers. As a collector of physics and metrology antiques, I seek out wall galvanometers! :) I regularly perform measurements with them, for no other reason than "because I can". I find them a pleasure to use. I do prefer the HP 3458A, though. > That > summer, I wound up on a job that required me to haul around a > portable potentiometer doing endless calibrations... Gads. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 16 20:07:42 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 21:07:42 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested in getting some equipment to setup a HAM radio transmission/reception system and possibly look to hook it up to a terminal for text transmission too. I'm totally in the dark on this, so I'm looking for anybody who can point me in the right directions, thanks. Curt From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 20:00:07 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 03:00:07 +0200 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110411122738.D80688@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3597C.3090406@neurotica.com> <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110417010007.GI13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 02:06:31PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > On 4/11/11 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> To be realistic here - > > >> How much do people like us really matter in today's IT environment? > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > ?Are you assuming that gainful employment in a technical field and > > > involvement in classic computing preservation are somehow mutually > > > exclusive? ?That's one of the more whacked-out arguments I've heard here. > > > ?(and that's saying something!) > > Thank you! > > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > While one could interpret it that way, I took it to mean more of "our > > needs (and wants) are such a minority view that they aren't above the > > noise floor for consideration for how new products are designed or > > implemented." > > Thank you for clarifying what I was saying. > > To a lesser extent, many "modern" employers would prefer to avoid hiring > people like us. Well, at least those of us, such as myself and Tony, who > are vocal about the existence of downsides to current "progress". > > > It's not that knowing what Kermit is and how to use it makes you > > unemployable, it's that nobody designing modern systems cares what > > Kermit users want (e.g. vanishing serial ports on modern hardware > > because a USB serial dongle works for "enough" people that it's the > > only option now). > > "Nobody needs more than two floppy ports" > "Nobody need more than one floppy port" > "Nobody needs a floppy port" Honestly, I haven't used a floppy on current (at the time) systems for almost ten years now. I went through a _pile_ of them when my connection to the university network was via sneakernet, but that was quite few years ago. These days, it is CDs, DVDs, USB sticks/disks. But I still keep the images of my old Novell DOS floppies - one never knows ;-) > "Nobody needs incandescents" Depends. I'm running CFLs at home wherever I can: far more light for the same heat budget (at lot of the typical lamp sockets round here are limited to 60 W, which means darkness with incandescents or serious light with CFLs). Besides, my machines already heat up the place well enough, I don't want to add a few hundred watts of halogen lights to that. > "Nobody needs a parallel port" Oddly enough, pretty much every machine/mainboard I've bought so far still has a parallel port. Admittedly, for printers these days I prefer to talk to them via the network, so I either get printers that can talk to the networkor - for those who can't - connect them to the little print server box sitting quietly blinking on the shelf. > "Nobody needs RS232" For very limited values of nobody. I need serial to talk to the LOMs of my SUNs and to the (only) consoles of my Alixes. Although good USB-to-serial adapters work quite well these days. > "Nobody needs SCSI" Well, the root disks in my current server (which also carry the important filesystems, like /home and /var/spool/mail) are a mirrored set of SCSI disks. Bulk storage (like my CD collection ripped to MP3 for convenience) is SATA. > "Nobody needs a command line" Again, depends. For the point-and-drool masses, sure, they neither need nor want a commandline. But I'm a Unix sysadmin by trade, the commandline is pretty much the most fundamental tool for my work. In fact, _my_ personal definition of a GUI is "10 Firefox/Chrome windows and 40-50 xterms". I really like X11, it is a nice, shiny terminal multiplexer ;-) > "Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, > nor ever will again." -(Clancy and Harvey, UC Berkeley Lower Division CS) We've been through that and while it holds true for some fields (complex application for one), it is utter nonsense as a general statement. One should be careful with words like 'nobody', 'never' unless one likes the taste of crow, for that matter ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 16 20:06:02 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 03:06:02 +0200 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DA37B48.80502@philpem.me.uk> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110411122738.D80688@shell.lmi.net> <4DA3597C.3090406@neurotica.com> <20110411135602.K83525@shell.lmi.net> <4DA37B48.80502@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20110417010602.GJ13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 11:06:00PM +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 11/04/11 22:06, Fred Cisin wrote: > >"Nobody programs in assembly language anymore, > >nor ever will again." -(Clancy and Harvey, UC Berkeley Lower Division CS) > > To which I would respond: > > "Alright. Bring up a brand-new embedded CPU board without writing a > single line of assembler." Hehe. And manually building machine code counts a expensive cheating, right? > You can't do squat in C without initialising the segments (TEXT and > BSS) and setting up the stack pointer. At best you'll get a > coredump, triple-fault or Abort (data or instruction-fetch, take > your pick). At worst you get the CPU writing crap all over the > rootfs, NVM, bootflash and whatever else it can lay its grubby paws > on. > > On the list of things that aren't a good idea, "attempting to write > CINIT / crt0 in C" is way, way up there. ACK. When all is said and done, bits of assembler sit at the root of a lot of basic system infrastructure. > Of course, if you're an apps developer, then the aforementioned > statement is entirely true. I tried to write a Win32 app in ASM, and > it nearly drove me mad. (Although some would argue on the "nearly" > part of that sentence...!) You, sir, are very ... brave. ;-) SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 20:31:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 21:31:46 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> On 4/16/11 9:07 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested in getting some equipment > to setup a HAM radio transmission/reception system and possibly look to > hook it up to a terminal for text transmission too. I'm totally in the > dark on this, so I'm looking for anybody who can point me in the right > directions, thanks. I'm not a licensed amateur radio operator anymore, but I was for many years. My license is long since expired. I've always planned to get back into it, but I've not yet managed to do so. I do miss it. Have you had any exposure to ham radio? You're aware that a license is required to transmit, yes? Do you have any knowledge of bands/local vs. distance/modes etc? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 20:31:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 21:31:50 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 - question about powering reader In-Reply-To: <201104162159.p3GLxRp3039472@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201104162159.p3GLxRp3039472@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4DAA4306.3040907@neurotica.com> On 4/16/11 5:59 PM, B Degnan wrote: > I have been able to get my PDP 11/05 to print "hello world" by entering > a short program into the toggle switches. I can simultaneously get the > punch to print if I enable it. The text is actually garbled > (TE]HJVYRTD), but I assume I just have to make an adjustment to the > parity/stop bits or related. At least it's consistent. Excellent! > But the reason I am writing is to see if I can help with the reader. > When I load and run the bootstrap loader the reader does not attempt to > read a bootstrap tape either automatically or by pressing start. I think > that's because the reader is not getting power. > I can't get it to do anything in local mode or line mode. > > I have painstakingly traced the wires to get a good idea of the > modifications made to the reader control. It appears that two of the > wires coming from the reader are diverted to run through a 24V > transformer (?) with a 0.5 uF 47 on top that is part of the reader > control mod, and then exit the teletype . ... > I must be close. I read that there was a power supply for the reader on > some asr 33's, Do I need a 24V power source for the reader? The power supply for the reader in an ASR-33 is in the base, mounted near the top. A good picture of it can be seen here: http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/old_rdr_power.shtml I gather from your pics that you're running your ASR-33 baseless? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 16 20:31:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 18:31:56 -0700 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110417010602.GJ13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <240772.17425.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4DA37B48.80502@philpem.me.uk>, <20110417010602.GJ13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4DA9E09C.18366.1F29E8B@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2011 at 3:06, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >Phil Pemberton wrote: > > Of course, if you're an apps developer, then the aforementioned > > statement is entirely true. I tried to write a Win32 app in ASM, and > > it nearly drove me mad. (Although some would argue on the "nearly" > > part of that sentence...!) > > You, sir, are very ... brave. ;-) It's not bad; Steve Gibson even has a web page and some tools on it: http://www.grc.com/smgassembly.htm --Chuck From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 20:43:22 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 20:43:22 -0500 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> At 08:07 PM 4/16/2011, you wrote: >Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested >in getting some equipment to setup a HAM radio >transmission/reception system and possibly look >to hook it up to a terminal for text >transmission too. I'm totally in the dark on >this, so I'm looking for anybody who can point >me in the right directions, thanks. Best way? Get a license. Never been easier; the tests are multiple choice and the tests and answers are posted online, legally. There's something like 35 questions on any given exam, out of a pool of 625 or something, but there's like 5 ohm's law questions and they'll ask you one of them, and 10 rules and regs, and you'll get two of them, etc. No more morse code requirement for a technician class license. That gets you access to 50 MHz and up-- the six meter, two meter, and 70cm bands are the more popular ones. Lots of used gear out there for that. You can build a soundcard interface or buy one. Packet radio uses AX.25 and usually the two meter band to send 300 baud serial data keyboard-to-keyboard, or more often, keyboard to mailbox. You get a little box called a TNC (a radio modem) and plug it into a radio. You can do some of what you want without a license (just listening) but many of the resources for learning how to do this stuff are on the air, and it you can't transmit, you can't ask. Sounds like you're interested in digital modes. There's some of that available to the technician class ham. There's the original digital mode, morse code, but that's hard for some people to learn. There's packet, like I mentioned. There's RTTY (radioteletype) but I'm not sure how much of that is out there on 6- and two-meters. There's an entirely new set of protocols out there, called D-Star, which is true digital. The radios for D-star are built digital from the ground up. That's a voice-over-digital mode, whereas many of the others are data (messages) over digital. Getting a license: You need each lower level first before you can get the next one. Start with Technician, then if you want to use lower frequencies/other modes, get the General Class license. You can buy/beg/borrow a license manual lots of places, but make sure it's recent. Lots of people use the ARRL manuals or the Gordon West ones, I personally think the later are better. The question pools change. The current Tech questions went into effect July 1 2010 and are good until the middle of 2014. The General class exam changes to a new question pool July 1 2011. Example: http://www.aesham.com/photos2/ARR0847.jpg This URL will probably get split up, you'll have to stitch it together. It's all ARRL publications and there's books, CDs, and study guides. http://search.cartserver.com/search/search.cgi?bool=AND&cartid=a-6994&category=newprices&maxhits=1200&keywords=arrstuff&go.x=16&go.y=7&go=GO! Read a book, and then go here to take practice exams (this is just one example, there are lots) http://www.qrz.com/exams or http://www.qrz.com/xtest2.html Here's a "Getting ready for your ham exam" site that looks good: http://www.radioexam.org/ THEN, find an exam near you. The best way to to go to a hamfest, which is a swap for amateur radio and computer gear. There's one every few months here in the midwest. What state are you in? Go here to find hamfests: http://www.arrl.org/hamfests-and-conventions-calendar Search by city and state, or zip code (that's all you need to fill in) The problem with that one is that it only lists ARRL sanctioned events, and there are a lot more than just those. You'd have to tell me your state and what major cities you're near for me to do some digging. Partial list of exam coordinators: http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=licensing_5&id=amateur That's a lot of info; I hope something was helpful. 73 (best regards) de N9QQB 210 . [Philosophy] "Brilliance is typically the act of an individual, but incredible stupidity can usually be traced to an organization." --Jon Bentley NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Apr 16 21:16:17 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 19:16:17 -0700 Subject: Info on QED 993 (QBus PDP-11 processor) Message-ID: <4DAA4D71.9080609@mail.msu.edu> Anyone have any documentation on a QED 993 processor? From what I've been able to find on the 'net (which is not much) it's a 3rd-party, Qbus-based, quad-width PDP-11 upgrade, which has 4MB of RAM onboard and is supposedly faster than 11/93. I just took a gamble on one (the seller icsscorp on eBay -- the same seller who had the CMD SCSI boards a week or so back -- has been auctioning a bunch of these off one by one) and I'm hoping to put it in my 11/73. It'd be nice to have some official documentation. Thanks! Josh From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 16 21:24:02 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:24:02 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> Hi Dave, I know I need a license, but I'm just starting to dig into things, obviously want a 2 way system, kinda hoping I can do an attic based antenna if at all possible, I remember a bit from when I was a kid about atmosphere bouncing and such, but I have a lot of rust to scrap off my memories... why do you have some gear you're looking to part with and any chance you coming up to VCF East? Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/16/11 9:07 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested in getting some equipment >> to setup a HAM radio transmission/reception system and possibly look to >> hook it up to a terminal for text transmission too. I'm totally in the >> dark on this, so I'm looking for anybody who can point me in the right >> directions, thanks. > > I'm not a licensed amateur radio operator anymore, but I was for > many years. My license is long since expired. I've always planned to > get back into it, but I've not yet managed to do so. I do miss it. > > Have you had any exposure to ham radio? You're aware that a license > is required to transmit, yes? Do you have any knowledge of > bands/local vs. distance/modes etc? > > -Dave > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 16 21:28:05 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:28:05 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4DAA5035.7070802@atarimuseum.com> Superb, I'll start with the licensing, I know some of Morse from when I was a kid, and I'm sure I can brush up on it and get back up to speed, I just missed Will Donzelli, he's off on a equipment run out west, and I know he's huge into HAMfest stuff so I'll also see if I can catch up with him once he's back, maybe it will be good for me to go to hamfest and see some stuff as well... So packet is the same as the old x.25 protocols?!??! If so, that's great as I used to work with that stuff many years ago, so I think I should be able to get up to speed in a couple of months, I'll take a look at what you've liked, thanks Tom! Curt Tom wrote: > At 08:07 PM 4/16/2011, you wrote: >> Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested in getting some >> equipment to setup a HAM radio transmission/reception system and >> possibly look to hook it up to a terminal for text transmission too. >> I'm totally in the dark on this, so I'm looking for anybody who can >> point me in the right directions, thanks. > > Best way? Get a license. Never been easier; the tests are multiple > choice and the tests and answers are posted online, legally. There's > something like 35 questions on any given exam, out of a pool of 625 or > something, but there's like 5 ohm's law questions and they'll ask you > one of them, and 10 rules and regs, and you'll get two of them, etc. > > No more morse code requirement for a technician class license. That > gets you access to 50 MHz and up-- the six meter, two meter, and 70cm > bands are the more popular ones. Lots of used gear out there for that. > You can build a soundcard interface or buy one. Packet radio uses > AX.25 and usually the two meter band to send 300 baud serial data > keyboard-to-keyboard, or more often, keyboard to mailbox. You get a > little box called a TNC (a radio modem) and plug it into a radio. > > You can do some of what you want without a license (just listening) > but many of the resources for learning how to do this stuff are on the > air, and it you can't transmit, you can't ask. > > Sounds like you're interested in digital modes. There's some of that > available to the technician class ham. There's the original digital > mode, morse code, but that's hard for some people to learn. There's > packet, like I mentioned. There's RTTY (radioteletype) but I'm not > sure how much of that is out there on 6- and two-meters. > > There's an entirely new set of protocols out there, called D-Star, > which is true digital. The radios for D-star are built digital from > the ground up. That's a voice-over-digital mode, whereas many of the > others are data (messages) over digital. > > Getting a license: > > You need each lower level first before you can get the next one. Start > with Technician, then if you want to use lower frequencies/other > modes, get the General Class license. > > You can buy/beg/borrow a license manual lots of places, but make sure > it's recent. > > Lots of people use the ARRL manuals or the Gordon West ones, I > personally think the later are better. > > The question pools change. The current Tech questions went into effect > July 1 2010 and are good until the middle of 2014. The General class > exam changes to a new question pool July 1 2011. > > Example: > http://www.aesham.com/photos2/ARR0847.jpg > > This URL will probably get split up, you'll have to stitch it > together. It's all ARRL publications and there's books, CDs, and study > guides. > http://search.cartserver.com/search/search.cgi?bool=AND&cartid=a-6994&category=newprices&maxhits=1200&keywords=arrstuff&go.x=16&go.y=7&go=GO! > > > Read a book, and then go here to take practice exams (this is just one > example, there are lots) > http://www.qrz.com/exams > or http://www.qrz.com/xtest2.html > > > Here's a "Getting ready for your ham exam" site that looks good: > http://www.radioexam.org/ > > > THEN, find an exam near you. The best way to to go to a hamfest, which > is a swap for amateur radio and computer gear. There's one every few > months here in the midwest. What state are you in? > > Go here to find hamfests: > http://www.arrl.org/hamfests-and-conventions-calendar > Search by city and state, or zip code (that's all you need to fill in) > The problem with that one is that it only lists ARRL sanctioned > events, and there are a lot more than just those. You'd have to tell > me your state and what major cities you're near for me to do some > digging. > > > Partial list of exam coordinators: > http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=licensing_5&id=amateur > > > That's a lot of info; I hope something was helpful. > > 73 (best regards) de N9QQB > > > > > 210 . [Philosophy] "Brilliance is typically the act of an individual, > but incredible stupidity can usually be traced to an organization." > --Jon Bentley > NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) > "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON > FACEBOOK > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc > LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux > User 385531 > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 16 21:51:29 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 19:51:29 -0700 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> Tom wrote about amateur radio licensing: > > Getting a license: > > You need each lower level first before you can get the next one. Start > with Technician, then if you want to use lower frequencies/other > modes, get the General Class license. Note that in the US, the exam fee covers any number of exams taken in the same session. In other words, once you take the Technician exam, and pass it, you can try to take the General exam immediately at no extra charge, and if you pass that, you can try the Amateur Extra exam. There is no penalty for failing an exam, so you may as well try to get as far as you can at one sitting. There are lots of online resources to help with studying, so you don't even have to buy a study manual. I bought study manuals, but barely cracked them open. I did practice tests online. The Technician class was a piece of cake. I had to study a little bit for General, and a modest amount for Amateur Extra. I passed them all at one sitting, no sweat. A huge amount of the Novice exam is what I would consider "common sense". There are only a few questions about theory (like Ohm's Law), RF safety, and operating privileges. The General and Amateur Extra exams have progressively more questions on theory (e.g., impedance and Smith charts). I've mostly only operated "phone" mode (voice) on 2m/1.25m/70cm. Years ago I was interested in packet, but that seems to have almost dried up and blown away. I'm interested in trying RTTY and PSK31 modes on HF, but I don't have any HF gear yet. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 22:07:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 23:07:50 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA5035.7070802@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA5035.7070802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DAA5986.5040508@neurotica.com> On 4/16/11 10:28 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > So packet is the same as the old x.25 > protocols?!??! If so, that's great as I used to work with that stuff > many years ago, so I think I should be able to get up to speed in a > couple of months, I'll take a look at what you've liked, thanks Tom! Packet radio is AX.25, which was derived from X.25. It's not quite compatible. It should look very familiar, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 16 22:13:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 23:13:35 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DAA5ADF.7020800@neurotica.com> On 4/16/11 10:24 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I know I need a license, but I'm just starting to dig into things, > obviously want a 2 way system, kinda hoping I can do an attic based > antenna if at all possible, I remember a bit from when I was a kid about > atmosphere bouncing and such, but I have a lot of rust to scrap off my > memories... why do you have some gear you're looking to part with and > any chance you coming up to VCF East? I'm going to try like hell to make it to VCF-E, but it's not definite. I hope to firm up those plans soon. I have a large amount of ham gear, but I've never really considered parting with any of it. In any case, it's down in FL and I'm in WV, and there's no way I'd be going to FL before VCF. I'll give it some thought. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wulfcub at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 22:18:41 2011 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:18:41 -0500 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: A great resource is the Amateur Radio Relay League (ARRL). http://www.arrl.org They have tons of information and resources, including downloadable question/test pools, sample tests ( http://www.arrl.org/question-pools ), and information on where and when the nearest exams will be held. Most larger cities have a club as well (such as the Wichita Amateur Radio Club in my area) which can help you with testing and even with getting your shack set up. Some of the clubs in NY can be found here: http://www.gunkswriter.com/h/omarc/links-body.html Good luck with your new undertaking! --Shaun, N0WHG From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 16 22:35:27 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 23:35:27 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DAA5FFF.6000404@atarimuseum.com> Checking out all of the links, thanks very much... Wulf daMan wrote: > A great resource is the Amateur Radio Relay League (ARRL). > http://www.arrl.org They have tons of information and resources, > including downloadable question/test pools, sample tests ( > http://www.arrl.org/question-pools ), and information on where and > when the nearest exams will be held. Most larger cities have a club > as well (such as the Wichita Amateur Radio Club in my area) which can > help you with testing and even with getting your shack set up. Some of > the clubs in NY can be found here: > http://www.gunkswriter.com/h/omarc/links-body.html > > Good luck with your new undertaking! > --Shaun, N0WHG > > From jonas at otter.se Sat Apr 16 15:03:51 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:03:51 +0200 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 92, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DA9F627.5050105@otter.se> On 2011-04-16 19:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Are you saying that this uses a rack-and-pinion type of hard positioner? > If so, it's the first one I've heard of in a floppy drive, but anyway... It is indeed a rack-and-pinion positioner. > You would want som way to eliminate the backlash between the rack and the > drive gear. One common way to do thsi is to make the gear in 2 'slices'. > One is fixed to the spidnle, the other is free to move by a small angle, > but there;s a bias spring forcing it in a particualr direciton relative > to the spindle. The idea is that said spring is pre-tensioned when the > mechnaism is assembled so that the teeth of the 2 gears are forces to > commpletel fill the gaps between the teeth on the rack. I know what you mean. There is nothing like that here, everything is probably too small. The pinion is about 2 mm diameter and the teeth on the rack are something like 3 per mm... > What I would do next is with the drive removed, try carefully moving the > head back and forth and/or rotatign the stepper motor spindle and see > what moves. If something is stripped then moving the head will not > rotrate the motore and vice versa. Of course you may find that something > is jammed solid, in which cae that could be the problem. I removed the motor, it turns out the rack and the pinion is in good shape. What I was seeing was just a deposit of grease and/or gunk. The head assembly was locked solid. It runs on a steel rod approx. 2 mm diameter which goes through what looks like bushes, and it was completely jammed from lack of lubrication, dirt etc. The bad news is that now everything is out of alignment since the head assembly came loose when I was trying to move it (it was locked really, really solid), and I don't have an alignment disk. Still, it was a learning experience... I have ordered a new drive from a local shop, they don't keep them in stock. They are only 6 Euros so replacing it will be a lot less trouble than making it work again. I would have liked to fix it, but that is simply not practical, sadly. Interestingly, Atari drives are sold for about $50 on eBay, with shipping to Sweden another $50. I suppose they are "collectable". That works out at about 10x the price of a new one. The difference is that the original drive is 720K and has a special bezel and eject knob, a new one is 1.44M and the bezel and knob can be transferred from the old one. The machine itself works with a 1.44M drive. > > have a metalworking workshop with a lathe available to me:-) ). > Also remember that if you dismantle the head poositioner, you will need to > set the radial alignment, which needs an alignment disk. Something else > you may well not have. Indeed I don't... Next time, if there is one, I shall try squirting some white spirit or something on to the guide rod with a syringe, carefully work the head assembly loose and then lubricate the guide rod sparingly. > While it certainly isn't worth getting a lathe and all the add-ons just > to repair one floppy drive, it is somethign that you may want to consider > at some point. Having the ability to make mechancial parts really > increases the things you can repair, and it also removes worry from doing > some jobs ('If I mangle this part getting it off, I can always turn > another one.'). Yes, a lathe is a very useful machine. Unfortunately I can't really see where to put one in my flat, except possibly a watchmaker's lathe. Of course one of those would have been just the job here if I needed new parts. /Jonas From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 16 15:21:15 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:21:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA9F28E.50506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <453993.9363.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 4/16/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > ? Those applications are widespread; there are > considerably more embedded computers in the world than > non-embedded.? I'd like to hear from 1 person on this list that currently owns an 80186/88 based SBC. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 16 17:56:36 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:56:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, long live Assembly... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <613799.1290.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Avengers Assemble! Assembly is not dead. We just don't live in a world of computers w/burgeoning 32kb of ram. It just isn't practical to write programs from the ground up in Assembly. It's tough to beat optimization besides. You really have to know how to write good assembler to write good assembler. You can't understand how a computer works w/o knowing a smattering of assembly/machine code. Anyone who is interested in learning the nuts and volts of computer hardware is going to need to learn some assembler. Hackers need to know assembler. Compiler writers need to know assembler. Embedded programmers need to know assembler. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Apr 17 02:24:28 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 09:24:28 +0200 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DAA95AC.4080501@bluewin.ch> On 04/16/2011 09:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Consider: When was the last HP-16C calculator sold? Why did HP quit > selling it, but still sells the HP-12C financial calculator to this > day? It would seem that if there were really a market, the 12C > chassis could be reprogrammed to continue the 16C line. But it's not- > -because few need to sit over a dump and work out what went wrong. > Because nobody works at that level any longer; it would not be a > profitable product for HP. Another reason might be that HP is just too expensive ? Just 3 years ago I bought a scientific calculater which also does hex,octal, binary and has all the logic functions. Price : 5 USD new..... Admittedly no RPN, keyboard less good, but still fully usable. Jos From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 17 02:30:13 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 01:30:13 -0600 Subject: Assembly is dead, long live Assembly... In-Reply-To: <613799.1290.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <613799.1290.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DAA9705.2060403@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/16/2011 4:56 PM, Chris M wrote: > Avengers Assemble! > > Assembly is not dead. We just don't live in a world of computers > w/burgeoning 32kb of ram. It just isn't practical to write programs > from the ground up in Assembly. It's tough to beat optimization > besides. You really have to know how to write good assembler to write > good assembler. > > You can't understand how a computer works w/o knowing a smattering of > assembly/machine code. > > Anyone who is interested in learning the nuts and volts of computer > hardware is going to need to learn some assembler. Hackers need to > know assembler. Compiler writers need to know assembler. Embedded > programmers need to know assembler. > Since I am still building my home brew computer, I have to learn C. No C++, C - or C#. I need to write my micro-code and assembler in something that I can port later to my new machine. Ben. From db at db.net Sun Apr 17 06:51:00 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 07:51:00 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA5035.7070802@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA5035.7070802@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110417115100.GA31199@night.db.net> On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 10:28:05PM -0400, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Superb, I'll start with the licensing, I know some of Morse from when I > was a kid, and I'm sure I can brush up on it and get back up to speed, I Morse code is no longer a requirement as has been noted. But it sure is fun. I've been struck by the younger hams around here getting interested in learning Morse/cw even though it is not a requirement. It's fun playing with very simple minimalist digital signal processing using the ears. > just missed Will Donzelli, he's off on a equipment run out west, and I > know he's huge into HAMfest stuff so I'll also see if I can catch up > with him once he's back, maybe it will be good for me to go to hamfest > and see some stuff as well... So packet is the same as the old x.25 ax.25 Hamradio used a variation of x.25 > protocols?!??! If so, that's great as I used to work with that stuff > many years ago, so I think I should be able to get up to speed in a > couple of months, I'll take a look at what you've liked, thanks Tom! psk31 is absolutely amazing as is WSJT/JT65. (I'd have to plug those) If you can find a local club that builds stuff, that will help alot. > > > Curt - 73 Diane Bruce VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Apr 17 08:03:24 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 09:03:24 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DAAE51C.6000709@verizon.net> On 04/16/2011 10:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Tom wrote about amateur radio licensing: >> >> Getting a license: >> >> You need each lower level first before you can get the next one. >> Start with Technician, then if you want to use lower >> frequencies/other modes, get the General Class license. > > Note that in the US, the exam fee covers any number of exams taken in > the same session. In other words, once you take the Technician exam, > and pass it, you can try to take the General exam immediately at no > extra charge, and if you pass that, you can try the Amateur Extra > exam. There is no penalty for failing an exam, so you may as well try > to get as far as you can at one sitting. > Good advice. The general exam question pool is not that much more complex. What the license gets you: Tech: Voice on part of 10M, and full use of 6M and up (2, 222, 432-450 and higher), CW/data privs on many lower bands. General: Access to all bands save for small segments reserved for extra. Extra: full access to all US bands. > There are lots of online resources to help with studying, so you don't > even have to buy a study manual. I bought study manuals, but barely > cracked them open. I did practice tests online. The Technician class > was a piece of cake. I had to study a little bit for General, and a > modest amount for Amateur Extra. I passed them all at one sitting, no > sweat. > Both of these have testing resources. Hamtest On Line QRZ > A huge amount of the Novice exam is what I would consider "common > sense". There are only a few questions about theory (like Ohm's Law), > RF safety, and operating privileges. The General and Amateur Extra > exams have progressively more questions on theory (e.g., impedance and > Smith charts). > Novice license does not exist. there are three licesnse since 2006, Technician, General, Extra. The tech license test is very simple. Trivial electronics, Rules and some amateur specific detail. > I've mostly only operated "phone" mode (voice) on 2m/1.25m/70cm. > Years ago I was interested in packet, but that seems to have almost > dried up and blown away. I'm interested in trying RTTY and PSK31 > modes on HF, but I don't have any HF gear yet. > Packet exists as APRS (automatic position reporting system, includes short messages) . I run phone, data modes and some CW(for contests) on 80-75, 40, 20, 15, 10, 6, 2 and 432/450 and adding more capability. I contest on the VHF and UHF bands. For those that do not understand contesting the idea is to make as many contacts in a given time and certain or many bands. Points are awarded based on frequencies(bands) used and a locations system called Maidenhead Grid system. Allison/KB1GMX From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 08:06:31 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:06:31 -0300 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1372C0EEBABA4C6BA5497EA540F69A1B@portajara> > Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested in getting some equipment > to setup a HAM radio transmission/reception system and possibly look to > hook it up to a terminal for text transmission too. I'm totally in the > dark on this, so I'm looking for anybody who can point me in the right > directions, thanks. By the profile of people here, and the history of the list, most users here are / were hams :) I'm PU1BZZ :) About the tx/rx system, look for packet radio (AX.25) and later modes (psk31, hellscreiber and like). You'll have globs of fun! But don't forget the license :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 10:07:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:07:54 -0400 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <453993.9363.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <453993.9363.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DAB024A.9050403@neurotica.com> On 4/16/11 4:21 PM, Chris M wrote: > I'd like to hear from 1 person on this list that currently owns an 80186/88 based SBC. Dammit, ask me this next year. I have an 80188-based design sitting in a work directory just about done, but I haven't started on the hardware yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 17 10:21:51 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 08:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/16/11 7:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> I once had an argument with a fellow who didn't believe >>> potentiometric voltage measurement systems ever had any value, because >>> there have been "multimeters", VOMs and VTVMs for many decades. "Why >>> do all that comparison stuff with standard cells when you can just >>> MEASURE the damn thing?" he asked. He didn't understand that there's >>> a voltage reference of one sort or another inside every VOM and VTVM. >> >> He obviously never had a lab course in electrical measurements. > > No, but he had an MCSE, therefore he was an expert in all things technical. Ahh, the unparalleled Microsoft Certified Solitaire Engineer. It's teh awsum! *ahem* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 10:36:33 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:36:33 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 11:21 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> I once had an argument with a fellow who didn't believe >>>> potentiometric voltage measurement systems ever had any value, because >>>> there have been "multimeters", VOMs and VTVMs for many decades. "Why >>>> do all that comparison stuff with standard cells when you can just >>>> MEASURE the damn thing?" he asked. He didn't understand that there's >>>> a voltage reference of one sort or another inside every VOM and VTVM. >>> >>> He obviously never had a lab course in electrical measurements. >> >> No, but he had an MCSE, therefore he was an expert in all things >> technical. > > Ahh, the unparalleled Microsoft Certified Solitaire Engineer. It's teh > awsum! *ahem* Yep. The great mark of "clueless" for this era. I recall all to well the last era's mark of "clueless": CNE! Remember those guys? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 17 10:45:17 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 08:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/17/11 11:21 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>>> I once had an argument with a fellow who didn't believe >>>>> potentiometric voltage measurement systems ever had any value, because >>>>> there have been "multimeters", VOMs and VTVMs for many decades. "Why >>>>> do all that comparison stuff with standard cells when you can just >>>>> MEASURE the damn thing?" he asked. He didn't understand that there's >>>>> a voltage reference of one sort or another inside every VOM and VTVM. >>>> >>>> He obviously never had a lab course in electrical measurements. >>> >>> No, but he had an MCSE, therefore he was an expert in all things >>> technical. >> >> Ahh, the unparalleled Microsoft Certified Solitaire Engineer. It's teh >> awsum! *ahem* > > Yep. The great mark of "clueless" for this era. I recall all to well the > last era's mark of "clueless": CNE! Remember those guys? > I've only ever met one "CNE" that took it as seriously as the acronym indicated it should be. He's a damn sharp guy too. I suspect he was more the exception than the rule though. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 10:58:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:58:56 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DAB0E40.9070001@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 11:45 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> Ahh, the unparalleled Microsoft Certified Solitaire Engineer. It's teh >>> awsum! *ahem* >> >> Yep. The great mark of "clueless" for this era. I recall all to well >> the last era's mark of "clueless": CNE! Remember those guys? > > I've only ever met one "CNE" that took it as seriously as the acronym > indicated it should be. He's a damn sharp guy too. I suspect he was more > the exception than the rule though. :) Oh yes, I'd say so. One such fellow insisted that files on a Netware server were stored "pre-encoded into IPX format" on the server's drives, which is how it could serve up file data so fast. [rolls eyes] I get pretty nostalgic about Netware. The last installation I did before getting out of that world was v2.15, pretty early. I always liked the simplicity, stability, and performance. I did dozens of small Netware networks in NJ in the late 1980s, mostly in law offices. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 17 11:47:25 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 09:47:25 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DAB024A.9050403@neurotica.com> References: <453993.9363.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4DAB024A.9050403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi I have a AMD 80188 developement board with flash memory for programs. I also have a couple of STD board with both 80186's and 80C187's ( quite rare ). I have a board made by an embedded manufature that was used as a vehicle reporting and locating that included a GPS unit. It has several RS232 connections ( 6 as I recall ). I can't think why a truck would need 6 RS232 connections. These were pulled units and had one main problem. Most of the RS232 level converter chips were blown. A vehicle is not the place to put unprotected RS232. The starter generates some really nasty high voltage spikes that can even cause significant spikes from ground to ground in the frame ( high frequency spikes ). I put a version of Forth on both the AMD board and on the truck box. One has access to the world of I/O and even assembly from a good Forth setup. Later, I was told by some else that they'd taken my implementation of Forth and run it as is on a US Robotics phone modem. It is interesting that mode implementations of 80188/86 are so similar. Dwight > Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:07:54 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Assembly is dead, etc. > > On 4/16/11 4:21 PM, Chris M wrote: > > I'd like to hear from 1 person on this list that currently owns an 80186/88 based SBC. > > Dammit, ask me this next year. I have an 80188-based design sitting > in a work directory just about done, but I haven't started on the > hardware yet. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 17 11:51:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 09:51:53 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DAA95AC.4080501@bluewin.ch> References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DAA95AC.4080501@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4DAAB839.31712.4B7801@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2011 at 9:24, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Another reason might be that HP is just too expensive ? > Just 3 years ago I bought a scientific calculater which also does > hex,octal, binary and has all the logic functions. Price : 5 USD > new..... Admittedly no RPN, keyboard less good, but still fully > usable. A couple of years ago, I considered making my own modern version of the SR-22 (unique among hex/octal calculators because it also does floating point in hex and octal). I've got a pile of nice backlit LCDs here that would do wonderfully; microcontrollers are numerous and cheap, but I came up against a wall looking for a high-quality keypad with, say, 25 or 30 keys... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 17 12:04:20 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:04:20 -0700 Subject: Gordon Bell paper on the history of CHM In-Reply-To: <4DA9C9AE.2010203@bitsavers.org> References: <4DA9C9AE.2010203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 09:54:06 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Gordon Bell paper on the history of CHM > > http://research.microsoft.com/pubs/147240/Bell_Origin_of_the_Computer_History_Museum_v2.pdf > Hi Al I'm glad that someone had the sense to not toss out the old junk. " Historian Mike Williams of the University of Calgary said, "Looking at a cannibalized piece of the ENIAC, like the one at the museum, doesn't do much for me. Why not just videotape everything and throw the junk out?" " To save even a piece of an ENIAC has great value to one trying to understand the design methods used at that time. One thing to realize is that each persons opinion on what should be saved is quite different. The loss of things like the Johniac machine would have been truly beyond my imagination of what should be save and what should be scrapped. The words that come to mind are " What were they thinking they were doing?" On a separate subject, I have an opinion of what the CHM lacks( we all have an opinion ). They seem to lack connections. The machines have a quick description of each machine but there is little more for the connections between people and ideas that brought the entire thing together. It would be too much to have at each exhibit but there should be some way to reference and tie things together. I'm not really sure how it would be done. Maybe a few current day machines with search engines to access more in depth information. Just my thoughts Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 12:19:01 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:19:01 -0400 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DAAB839.31712.4B7801@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DAA95AC.4080501@bluewin.ch> <4DAAB839.31712.4B7801@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DAB2105.7060905@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 12:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A couple of years ago, I considered making my own modern version of > the SR-22 (unique among hex/octal calculators because it also does > floating point in hex and octal). I've got a pile of nice backlit > LCDs here that would do wonderfully; microcontrollers are numerous > and cheap, but I came up against a wall looking for a high-quality > keypad with, say, 25 or 30 keys... Keypads are tough. :-( Several years ago I needed a membrane keypad for a commercial design, and I found a good company in Florida who did a very good job on them. They're still...membrane keypads, though. Eeew. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 17 12:32:55 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:32:55 -0700 Subject: Gordon Bell paper on the history of CHM In-Reply-To: References: <4DA9C9AE.2010203@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DAB2447.3030606@bitsavers.org> On 4/17/11 10:04 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > On a separate subject, I have an opinion of what the > CHM lacks( we all have an opinion ). They seem to lack connections. > The machines have a quick description of each machine but there > is little more for the connections between people and ideas > that brought the entire thing together. In the physical or web exhibit? On the floor, we are targeting the general public. People are already overwhelmed by the time they get through the whole thing. The web exhibit is different, and the intention is to go into more depth there. What you see now on the site was getting the existing assets used in creating the physical exhibition on the web. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 17 12:37:33 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 10:37:33 -0700 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAAE51C.6000709@verizon.net> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> <4DAAE51C.6000709@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DAB255D.7080406@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > A huge amount of the Novice exam is what I would consider "common > sense". There are only a few questions about theory (like Ohm's Law), > RF safety, and operating privileges. allison wrote: > Novice license does not exist. Oops, I meant Technician class. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 12:41:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:41:06 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAB255D.7080406@brouhaha.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> <4DAAE51C.6000709@verizon.net> <4DAB255D.7080406@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DAB2632.3000000@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 1:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: >> A huge amount of the Novice exam is what I would consider "common >> sense". There are only a few questions about theory (like Ohm's Law), >> RF safety, and operating privileges. > allison wrote: >> Novice license does not exist. > Oops, I meant Technician class. Sheesh. When I was last a ham, there were five classes of license, and the odd-numbered ones had morse requirements. Things sure have changed. I like these new digital modes, though. I'm looking forward to trying them out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 12:46:16 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:46:16 -0300 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> <4DAB0E40.9070001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> > Oh yes, I'd say so. One such fellow insisted that files on a Netware > server were stored "pre-encoded into IPX format" on the server's drives, > which is how it could serve up file data so fast. Dave, I may be VERY wrong (and most times I am :o)) but I remember a dedicated novell netware server that stored the files in a different way, to facilitate access. Now I don't remember if it had something with interleave/phisical cluster location or something in the way the blocks were encoded. I'll try googling that, This is very old info, maybe I'm completely wrong... Hum, haven't found much info, beyond the hard disk had a special formatting for netware access...See here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7X_cL0uWMLAJ:blog.eukhost.com/webhosting/novell-network-part-1/+dedicated+novell+netware+server+file+encoding&cd=1&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&gl=br&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com.br Any info on that? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 12:47:39 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:47:39 -0300 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DAA95AC.4080501@bluewin.ch> <4DAAB839.31712.4B7801@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAB2105.7060905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0646C616EF364DF69C8BCC443712B42C@portajara> > Keypads are tough. :-( Several years ago I needed a membrane keypad for > a commercial design, and I found a good company in Florida who did a very > good job on them. They're still...membrane keypads, though. Eeew. There are companies ("Fourth" came to mind, I used their products many times) that produces real keyboards (beyond membrane and chiclet ones) in Brazil. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 12:55:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:55:20 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> <4DAB0E40.9070001@neurotica.com> <56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> Message-ID: <4DAB2988.2060105@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 1:46 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Oh yes, I'd say so. One such fellow insisted that files on a Netware >> server were stored "pre-encoded into IPX format" on the server's >> drives, which is how it could serve up file data so fast. > > Dave, I may be VERY wrong (and most times I am :o)) but I remember a > dedicated novell netware server that stored the files in a different > way, to facilitate access. Now I don't remember if it had something with > interleave/phisical cluster location or something in the way the blocks > were encoded. > > I'll try googling that, This is very old info, maybe I'm completely > wrong... > > Hum, haven't found much info, beyond the hard disk had a special > formatting for netware access...See here: > http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7X_cL0uWMLAJ:blog.eukhost.com/webhosting/novell-network-part-1/+dedicated+novell+netware+server+file+encoding&cd=1&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&gl=br&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com.br > > > Any info on that? Nothing other than twenty-year-old memories, but I do recall that Netware used its own filesystem that supported some basic access controls and such. I think that's what had the clueless CNE thinking the on-disk layout was "pre-encoded for IPX", which is, of course, ridiculous. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 13:11:17 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:11:17 -0300 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> <4DAB0E40.9070001@neurotica.com><56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> <4DAB2988.2060105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <23BDABCC294940ED9977480BA02F1441@portajara> > Nothing other than twenty-year-old memories, but I do recall that > Netware used its own filesystem that supported some basic access > controls and such. I think that's what had the clueless CNE thinking > the on-disk layout was "pre-encoded for IPX", which is, of course, > ridiculous. Hmmm, We're getting fatte...eh...getting older ;) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 13:20:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:20:08 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <23BDABCC294940ED9977480BA02F1441@portajara> References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> <4DAB0E40.9070001@neurotica.com><56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> <4DAB2988.2060105@neurotica.com> <23BDABCC294940ED9977480BA02F1441@portajara> Message-ID: <4DAB2F58.2020904@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 2:11 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Nothing other than twenty-year-old memories, but I do recall that >> Netware used its own filesystem that supported some basic access >> controls and such. I think that's what had the clueless CNE thinking >> the on-disk layout was "pre-encoded for IPX", which is, of course, >> ridiculous. > > Hmmm, We're getting fatte...eh...getting older ;) I dunno about you, buy my ass is aging like fine wine! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 13:25:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:25:14 -0400 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <0646C616EF364DF69C8BCC443712B42C@portajara> References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DAA95AC.4080501@bluewin.ch> <4DAAB839.31712.4B7801@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAB2105.7060905@neurotica.com> <0646C616EF364DF69C8BCC443712B42C@portajara> Message-ID: <4DAB308A.8030906@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 1:47 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Keypads are tough. :-( Several years ago I needed a membrane keypad >> for a commercial design, and I found a good company in Florida who did >> a very good job on them. They're still...membrane keypads, though. Eeew. > > There are companies ("Fourth" came to mind, I used their products many > times) that produces real keyboards (beyond membrane and chiclet ones) > in Brazil. They produce them to spec? I wonder if they can do small quantities. Another option might be those keyswitches that have transparent keycaps, under which you can stick labels. Of course I adore those keyswitches that have a tiny color OLED display in them. At $50+/ea that'd make a pretty expensive calculator though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 13:33:48 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:33:48 -0300 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DAA95AC.4080501@bluewin.ch><4DAAB839.31712.4B7801@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAB2105.7060905@neurotica.com><0646C616EF364DF69C8BCC443712B42C@portajara> <4DAB308A.8030906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > They produce them to spec? I wonder if they can do small quantities. Yep, but I don't know about small quantities. I did it for a product some years ago, but I keep comunicating with the factory. They can even inject 2-part keys in the color you want. Think high-quality keys! http://www.fourth.com.br/ if you're curious. Page in portuguese, use google translator > Another option might be those keyswitches that have transparent keycaps, > under which you can stick labels. For prototypes and one-offs I usually build the keyboard with old keys or entire keyboards. > Of course I adore those keyswitches that have a tiny color OLED display > in them. At $50+/ea that'd make a pretty expensive calculator though. It will take some time to drop the price. I'd be more than happy with any kind of e-Paper key. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 17 12:02:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:02:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 92, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: <4DA9F627.5050105@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Apr 16, 11 10:03:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 2011-04-16 19:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Are you saying that this uses a rack-and-pinion type of hard positioner? > > If so, it's the first one I've heard of in a floppy drive, but anyway... > It is indeed a rack-and-pinion positioner. That is unusual. I think it would be worth trying to restore this drive, if only to have a working example of such a mechanism > > You would want som way to eliminate the backlash between the rack and the > > drive gear. One common way to do thsi is to make the gear in 2 'slices'. > > One is fixed to the spidnle, the other is free to move by a small angle, > > but there;s a bias spring forcing it in a particualr direciton relative > > to the spindle. The idea is that said spring is pre-tensioned when the > > mechnaism is assembled so that the teeth of the 2 gears are forces to > > commpletel fill the gaps between the teeth on the rack. > I know what you mean. There is nothing like that here, everything is > probably too small. The pinion is about 2 mm diameter and the teeth on > the rack are something like 3 per mm... 3 teeth per mm? That's a very fine pitch. Thinking about it, 3.5" 80 cylinder drives have 135 tpi. So the track spacing is 1/135" or 0.19mm. The backlashj in the mechansim must be a lot less than that, I guess with a 0.3mm pitch rack you can get that. > > What I would do next is with the drive removed, try carefully moving the > > head back and forth and/or rotatign the stepper motor spindle and see > > what moves. If something is stripped then moving the head will not > > rotrate the motore and vice versa. Of course you may find that something > > is jammed solid, in which cae that could be the problem. > I removed the motor, it turns out the rack and the pinion is in good As soon as you remvoed tht motor, you lost the head alighment... > shape. What I was seeing was just a deposit of grease and/or gunk. The > head assembly was locked solid. It runs on a steel rod approx. 2 mm > diameter which goes through what looks like bushes, and it was > completely jammed from lack of lubrication, dirt etc. The bad news is > that now everything is out of alignment since the head assembly came > loose when I was trying to move it (it was locked really, really solid), Provide the head is not damaged, I'd try cleaning it up, making it work freely again, and then see if you can get the drive working. Even with the radial alignment way off, the drive should be able to read its own disks (ones formated in that drive). As for doing the full alignment, there are various ways of getting it somehat near using a disk formatted on a known-good drive, but it's a lot easier with an alignment disk and 'scope. > and I don't have an alignment disk. Still, it was a learning experience... > I have ordered a new drive from a local shop, they don't keep them in > stock. They are only 6 Euros so replacing it will be a lot less trouble Hmmm. I wonder if those cheap drives are ever aligned at the factory... I've seen new drives over here that are certainly marginal when checked against a good alignment disk. > than making it work again. I would have liked to fix it, but that is > simply not practical, sadly. I'm not convinced it's impossible. > Interestingly, Atari drives are sold for about $50 on eBay, with > shipping to Sweden another $50. I suppose they are "collectable". That > works out at about 10x the price of a new one. The difference is that > the original drive is 720K and has a special bezel and eject knob, a new > one is 1.44M and the bezel and knob can be transferred from the old one. > The machine itself works with a 1.44M drive. Hmmm... I guess I am more of a purist, but I really don't like replacing modules (such as drives) in classic computers with random modern units. To me, the design of the drive is part of the design of the machine, and it should be preserved if at all possible. > Yes, a lathe is a very useful machine. Unfortunately I can't really see > where to put one in my flat, except possibly a watchmaker's lathe. Of > course one of those would have been just the job here if I needed new parts. For most classic computer work (at least the sort of machines you'll be working on if you're short of space :-)) you don't need a large lathe. I am told you can do a lot with something like a Unimat or a Peatol/Taig. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 17 13:31:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:31:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 16, 11 06:44:34 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/15/11 9:18 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > We all agree there are always comparisons to some reference or other, > > but the point I was attempting to make of the distinction between > > approaches remains. The calculable capacitor situation relies on another > > definition of C to calculably take the measurement back to that of the > > more fundamental measurement of distance, as opposed to simply > > calibrating it as another C (more turtles). > > Ahh ok, I understand what you mean now. In genral to measure a quanity you can eitehr compare it to a standard of the same time (e.g. using a bridge circuit (in many cases), a ruller, a 2-pan balance...) or you can convert it to some other quantity and compare that against a stnadard (e.g, a spring balanace which converts a weight (not a mass!) to a change in length which you then compare against a 'standard' length scale). Most of the books I have read on measurements say that unless there are otehr problems, you get the most accurate reuslts if yourt stnadard is the same type as the quantiity being measured (if only becasue of possible errors and non-linearities in the conversion). Obviously there are many times when you can't do this, or don't want to do this. And there are times when you really do want to check against the fundamental SI stnadards. Hower, to claim, as said physics teacher claimed, that a comparison against a standard of the same type is not a measuremnt is plain wrong. > > I once had an argument with a fellow who didn't believe > potentiometric voltage measurement systems ever had any value, because > there have been "multimeters", VOMs and VTVMs for many decades. "Why do ARGH! I used a potentiomenter (in the sense of a voltage measuring device) not that long ago. I wanted to measure the programming voltage in a programmer for ffusible-link PROMs. The problem was that if I tried to program a PROM I could proably measure the voltae applied, but if iy was way off, it'd progbably wreck the PRON. Anyway, Ididnt; want to waste one or more PROMs testing the programmer. If i asked it to program a chip and there was nothign in the socket, it would attempt to program the first location and then fail the verification and bomb out. Aha!. It was at least going to apply the programming voltage pulse of that first location. I didn't have a sotrage 'scope, so I couldn;'t sample that pulse and measure the amplitiude. What I did was connect a 'Helipot' multi-turn potentiometer accross a stable DC power supply, and then montiored the votlage on the slider of that pot with an DVM. I then connected that to one ipnput of a 339 comparator IC, and the other input to a pin on the progmrammer's socket that would gt the progrmaming pulse. The output of the 339 went to a logic probe so I could see if it was changing state. By reppeatedly 'programming' a non-existant chip and adjusting the pot, I could find a settign where the comparator _just_ didn't toggle. That man the outptu from the helipot was just higher than the progammign pulse voltage. And I could measure that constant voltage with the DVM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 17 13:37:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:37:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DAA95AC.4080501@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Apr 17, 11 09:24:28 am Message-ID: > Another reason might be that HP is just too expensive ? Good tools _are_ expensive :-) > Just 3 years ago I bought a scientific calculater which also does > hex,octal, binary and has all the logic functions. Price : 5 USD new..... I think I've even seen one in a 'pound shop' over here. > Admittedly no RPN, keyboard less good, but still fully usable. ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^ That, however, is a contradiction in terms. A non-RPN [1] calcualtor is never 'useable' [1] Note that i made no comment about it being a 4-levle stck RPN calculator. RPL is a form of RPN. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 17 13:18:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:18:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASR 33 - question about powering reader In-Reply-To: <201104162159.p3GLxRp3039472@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "B Degnan" at Apr 16, 11 05:59:10 pm Message-ID: > Hi > > I have been able to get my PDP 11/05 to print "hello world" by > entering a short program into the toggle switches. I can > simultaneously get the punch to print if I enable it. The text is > actually garbled (TE]HJVYRTD), but I assume I just have to make an Does the teletype print correctly in local mode? Could it be a problem with the receive mechanciam in the Model 33? Can you correctly read charactes from the Model 33 keyboard on the PDP11? If you can't get hat working, you'll almost certainly havve problems with the reader too, the serialiser is the same device (the rotating 'distributor' at the rear right corner of the Model 33 tpying unit. But anyway, let's get the reader working too... > adjustment to the parity/stop bits or related. At least it's consistent. > > But the reason I am writing is to see if I can help with the > reader. When I load and run the bootstrap loader the reader does not > attempt to read a bootstrap tape either automatically or by pressing > start. I think that's because the reader is not getting power. > I can't get it to do anything in local mode or line mode. Let's being with how the reader control should work. There's a little electromagnet (the 'trip coil') on top of the typing unit at the rear right side. When it is energised, it releases the trip lever. This engages the transmit clutch and the distributor disk rotates. It also closes the little switch contacts just in front of the trip coil (black and wihite wires with faston terminals IIRC). This then energises the larger solenoind in the reader itself, causign the sense pins ('peckers', at least over here) to rea the tape. The electical outputs from the switch contacts operated by the sense pins are serialised by the distributor contact. At theend of the character (one revolution of the transmit shaft), the trip lever is mechancially restored by a cam on the shaft. This opens the contacts, de-energising the reader soloid, which lowers the sense pins and advnces the tape for the next character. If the trip coil is still nergised, the trip lever is not latched at this point, and the cycle repeats, reading successive chracters from the tape. If the trip coil is deenergised, then at the end of the current caracter, the trip lever is latched in the idle position, disengaging the transmit clutch (and stopping the distributor) and holding the contacts open so that the reader soleoid is not energised. The power fro the reader solenoid comes from a PSU module that is often mounted in the stnad. Note that this is not isolated from the mains (power line) But there;'s no need to modify the wiring in that part of the circuit. The trip coil is pweered from an isolated (mains transformer) supply in the call control unit. All reader control is done through this coil. The orioginal wiring was to simply connect the reader on/off switch and tape-out contacts (in the reater itself) in series with this coil. When the reader switch was turned on, the trip coil was energised, and the reader read the tape as I've just descibed. There was an 'official' Teletpye versio nwith automatic reder control. This detected 2 control chreactters using levers in the 'stunt box' under the platen. These operated swithc contacts (there may well have been a latching relay involved too) to control the trip coil circuit. This version is not at all common (at least not over here). However, most computer manufcaters had their own modification which involved adding a relay contact to the trip coil circuit. The relay coil was controlled by the computer interface. The idea was that the computer could turn on the trip coil, then when the first bit of the chracter was received, the trip coil was denergised. Of course this meant the reader would stop after the chracter and wait for the computer to request the next one. It basically gave a single-stip control of the reader. Althoug hthis was not an official Teletype modification, it appears that most computer manufacturrs did it in essentially the same way. The modifications used by DEC, Intel and HP are all much the same. The first thing I would do is have the machine running in Local mode with the covers off and a piece of tape in the reader. Press down the armature flap on top of the trip coil. If the reader now runs (and the tape cotnents are printed out on the Model 33), then the reader and the mechancial side of things ae all working properly, and any problems are in the trip coil circuit (most likely) > > I have painstakingly traced the wires to get a good idea of the > modifications made to the reader control. It appears that two of the > wires coming from the reader are diverted to run through a 24V > transformer (?) with a 0.5 uF 47 on top that is part of the reader Could this be a relay (possiblty a reed relay or even a mercury-wetted relay), not a transformer? It would be conventional to put the contacts in sieres with the trip coil circuit and feed the coil connections out fo the machine and back to the computer. I would invetigate thsi some more. What is the DC resistance between the 2 connections that go to the reader circuit (with those wires disconnected from the rest of the teletpye)? If inifinite, this does suggest a relay contact. Does anyhting happen if you apply 24V (or so) between the 2 wires coming out of the machien from thsi device? If the resistance drops to 'very low' then it really does sound like a relay. Reconnect it, Apply 24V, and see if the reader runs now. > control mod, and then exit the teletype . > http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/with_PandB_JR-1000_pic2.jpg > > On the other end the wires have round screw post connectors as if > they could connect to a ground post or power supply. Pics below. > http://vintagecomputer.net/teletype/asr33/PandB/with_PandB_JR-1000_red-black-leads.jpg > > Any ideas where these would be plugged in given the photos below? I > don't think the two wires are supposed to be plugged into pins 4 and > 6 of the mate-and-lock connector coming from the pdp 11. I am pretty > sure 4 and 6 are for a high-speed reader and have nothing to do with > the TTY circuits. No. The high pseed reader is totally different thing, with its own (parallel) interface. The DEC connecotr has 6 pins used, 2 each for the transmit currnet loop, receive current loop and reader run relay. The last will drive a small relay coil directly. Has this Model 33 ever been used on a PDP11? If so, it's likely to be vertsion of the normal DEC modification and you can just connct up the relay coil wires to the 2 remaining pins on the mate-n-lock. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 17 13:42:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:42:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Apr 17, 11 08:45:17 am Message-ID: > I've only ever met one "CNE" that took it as seriously as the acronym > indicated it should be. He's a damn sharp guy too. I suspect he was more > the exception than the rule though. :) Most likely he was already a clueful guy and got the CNE `qualification; to stasify the requirements of some HR department. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 13:58:15 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:58:15 -0400 Subject: Moving things from Seattle to the Bay Area Message-ID: This is short notice, but things just may work out. I will have my mostly empty van available to move computer stuff from Seattle to the Bay Area, at a very nice reasonable rate (I need the money for gas!). I can probably take a single six foot rack, as long as it is not completely stuffed with equipment. That, or squatty boxes, terminals, or anything else. The catch is that the load up would have to be the early evening of the 29th of this month - just a week away or so - and would need to be pretty quick and easy, so no four hour jobs to get the things uncovered and hauled out of your cellar. Load and go. Unloading is far more flexible, as I will be in the Bay Area from the 30th through the 4th of May, and my days and evenings are mostly open. I will not be able to take large things further than the San Luis Obispo, or maybe Los Angeles with some arm twisting. If interested, contact me NOW, and please include some details of the job. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 14:02:04 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:02:04 -0400 Subject: In Bay Area, available for drooling Message-ID: Once again, I will be in the Bay Area from the 31st through the 4th (actually morning of the 5th), and will be available to come over and drool all over you collections. I will provide the 409 and paper towels. Many of you have been very kind hosts before. Please email me off list so we can set things up. I am also interest in that pizza night things you guys do from time to time, if it is on. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 17 14:23:46 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 12:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DAAB839.31712.4B7801@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DAA95AC.4080501@bluewin.ch> <4DAAB839.31712.4B7801@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Apr 2011 at 9:24, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> Another reason might be that HP is just too expensive ? >> Just 3 years ago I bought a scientific calculater which also does >> hex,octal, binary and has all the logic functions. Price : 5 USD >> new..... Admittedly no RPN, keyboard less good, but still fully >> usable. > > A couple of years ago, I considered making my own modern version of > the SR-22 (unique among hex/octal calculators because it also does > floating point in hex and octal). I've got a pile of nice backlit > LCDs here that would do wonderfully; microcontrollers are numerous > and cheap, but I came up against a wall looking for a high-quality > keypad with, say, 25 or 30 keys... > You know, a big calculator that used Cherry keyswitches would just kick ass. If you were to kit one, I'd be first in line. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 17 14:27:43 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 12:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAB2632.3000000@neurotica.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> <4DAAE51C.6000709@verizon.net> <4DAB255D.7080406@brouhaha.com> <4DAB2632.3000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/17/11 1:37 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> I wrote: >>> A huge amount of the Novice exam is what I would consider "common >>> sense". There are only a few questions about theory (like Ohm's Law), >>> RF safety, and operating privileges. >> allison wrote: >>> Novice license does not exist. >> Oops, I meant Technician class. > > Sheesh. When I was last a ham, there were five classes of license, and the > odd-numbered ones had morse requirements. Things sure have changed. I like > these new digital modes, though. I'm looking forward to trying them out. > What really pisses me off is the snorting derision from the old timers about "no-code Generals" and "no-code Extras". When I upgraded to General, they were still considering dropping the code requirement so I had to take the code portion of the test. That doesn't mean that people getting tickets post no-code worked any less to get their license, but to hear these guys talk you'd think if it wasn't done THEIR way, it shouldn't be done at all. 73 de kc7afe. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 17 14:28:48 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 12:28:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DAB2F58.2020904@neurotica.com> References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> <4DAB0E40.9070001@neurotica.com><56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> <4DAB2988.2060105@neurotica.com> <23BDABCC294940ED9977480BA02F1441@portajara> <4DAB2F58.2020904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/17/11 2:11 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Nothing other than twenty-year-old memories, but I do recall that >>> Netware used its own filesystem that supported some basic access >>> controls and such. I think that's what had the clueless CNE thinking >>> the on-disk layout was "pre-encoded for IPX", which is, of course, >>> ridiculous. >> >> Hmmm, We're getting fatte...eh...getting older ;) > > I dunno about you, buy my ass is aging like fine wine! ;) > Please, please, please, DON'T TAKE OUT THE CORK! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Apr 17 14:35:20 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:35:20 -0400 Subject: In Bay Area, available for drooling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAB40F8.9050302@atarimuseum.com> Hey Will, keep an eye out for Corvus and Mindset gear for me please... Thx Curt William Donzelli wrote: > Once again, I will be in the Bay Area from the 31st through the 4th > (actually morning of the 5th), and will be available to come over and > drool all over you collections. I will provide the 409 and paper > towels. Many of you have been very kind hosts before. Please email me > off list so we can set things up. I am also interest in that pizza > night things you guys do from time to time, if it is on. > > -- > Will > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 14:56:22 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:56:22 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> <4DAAE51C.6000709@verizon.net> <4DAB255D.7080406@brouhaha.com> <4DAB2632.3000000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DAB45E6.7050407@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 3:27 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Sheesh. When I was last a ham, there were five classes of license, and >> the odd-numbered ones had morse requirements. Things sure have >> changed. I like these new digital modes, though. I'm looking forward >> to trying them out. >> > What really pisses me off is the snorting derision from the old timers > about "no-code Generals" and "no-code Extras". When I upgraded to > General, they were still considering dropping the code requirement so I > had to take the code portion of the test. That doesn't mean that people > getting tickets post no-code worked any less to get their license, but > to hear these guys talk you'd think if it wasn't done THEIR way, it > shouldn't be done at all. > > 73 de kc7afe. I whined loudly about the no-code Technician class when that came about. I was certain that it was going to turn 2m into another CB, with overgrown children using echo boxes and sound effects on their radios, having burping contests and such. (Not that I have a problem with burping contests, I just prefer that they be in person!) It turns out that my fears were unfounded, and ham radio experienced quite a bit of growth as a result of the no-code tech, and (from what I saw at the time) that growth was largely positive. Now, knowing this, I have no problem with it at all. I always wondered why CW was considered by so many to be such a high barrier to entry. I got 5WPM code at 100% when I was eleven years old to get my (pre-no-code) Tech license. If I could do it, anyone could, but apparently many people thought they couldn't. I still don't get that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 14:58:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 15:58:04 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> <4DAB0E40.9070001@neurotica.com><56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> <4DAB2988.2060105@neurotica.com> <23BDABCC294940ED9977480BA02F1441@portajara> <4DAB2F58.2020904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DAB464C.4050705@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 3:28 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> Nothing other than twenty-year-old memories, but I do recall that >>>> Netware used its own filesystem that supported some basic access >>>> controls and such. I think that's what had the clueless CNE thinking >>>> the on-disk layout was "pre-encoded for IPX", which is, of course, >>>> ridiculous. >>> >>> Hmmm, We're getting fatte...eh...getting older ;) >> >> I dunno about you, buy my ass is aging like fine wine! ;) >> > Please, please, please, DON'T TAKE OUT THE CORK! *BLAM!!* oops -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 15:04:58 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 17:04:58 -0300 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com><4DAAE51C.6000709@verizon.net> <4DAB255D.7080406@brouhaha.com><4DAB2632.3000000@neurotica.com> <4DAB45E6.7050407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4084EF9824804BF9B7204A73F0FAB06F@portajara> > I whined loudly about the no-code Technician class when that came about. > I was certain that it was going to turn 2m into another CB, with overgrown > children using echo boxes and sound effects on their radios, having > burping contests and such. Dunno about your place, but here in Sao Paulo it has already turned that! :o( > It turns out that my fears were unfounded, and ham radio experienced > quite a bit of growth as a result of the no-code tech, and (from what I > saw at the time) that growth was largely positive. Now, knowing this, I > have no problem with it at all. :oO I imagine what would happen in Brazil... :o( > I always wondered why CW was considered by so many to be such a high > barrier to entry. I got 5WPM code at 100% when I was eleven years old to > get my (pre-no-code) Tech license. If I could do it, anyone could, but > apparently many people thought they couldn't. I still don't get that. I'm not that easy with CW. This is something that makes me very sad, but I still don't know CW, so I'm still at C class (the lowest we have in Brazil) while my friends are B or A class :( :( :( From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 17 16:17:32 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAB45E6.7050407@neurotica.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4daa45a2.c126e70a.0f76.ffff8876@mx.google.com> <4DAA55B1.6030303@brouhaha.com> <4DAAE51C.6000709@verizon.net> <4DAB255D.7080406@brouhaha.com> <4DAB2632.3000000@neurotica.com> <4DAB45E6.7050407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/17/11 3:27 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> Sheesh. When I was last a ham, there were five classes of license, and >>> the odd-numbered ones had morse requirements. Things sure have >>> changed. I like these new digital modes, though. I'm looking forward >>> to trying them out. >>> >> What really pisses me off is the snorting derision from the old timers >> about "no-code Generals" and "no-code Extras". When I upgraded to >> General, they were still considering dropping the code requirement so I >> had to take the code portion of the test. That doesn't mean that people >> getting tickets post no-code worked any less to get their license, but >> to hear these guys talk you'd think if it wasn't done THEIR way, it >> shouldn't be done at all. >> >> 73 de kc7afe. > > It turns out that my fears were unfounded, and ham radio experienced quite > a bit of growth as a result of the no-code tech, and (from what I saw at the > time) that growth was largely positive. Now, knowing this, I have no problem > with it at all. > The problem is that most of the old-timers refuse to acknowledge that their sky-is-falling fears never materialized. They'd much rather denigrate the work of "lesser" hams. It's pathetic. > I always wondered why CW was considered by so many to be such a high > barrier to entry. I got 5WPM code at 100% when I was eleven years old to get > my (pre-no-code) Tech license. If I could do it, anyone could, but > apparently many people thought they couldn't. I still don't get that. > I spent many days driving to and from work with the ARRL code CD going in my car. :) I also bought a neat trainer called NuMorse that is pretty good. There's a Koch method trainer called "G4FON" that's very good and freeware as well. One of these days I need to recover all that morse code I let slip out of my head. I've got a perfectly good Bencher paddle that's getting lonely. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Apr 17 16:18:03 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 14:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <4DAB464C.4050705@neurotica.com> References: , <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca>, <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> <4DAB0E40.9070001@neurotica.com><56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> <4DAB2988.2060105@neurotica.com> <23BDABCC294940ED9977480BA02F1441@portajara> <4DAB2F58.2020904@neurotica.com> <4DAB464C.4050705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/17/11 3:28 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>>> Nothing other than twenty-year-old memories, but I do recall that >>>>> Netware used its own filesystem that supported some basic access >>>>> controls and such. I think that's what had the clueless CNE thinking >>>>> the on-disk layout was "pre-encoded for IPX", which is, of course, >>>>> ridiculous. >>>> >>>> Hmmm, We're getting fatte...eh...getting older ;) >>> >>> I dunno about you, buy my ass is aging like fine wine! ;) >>> >> Please, please, please, DON'T TAKE OUT THE CORK! > > *BLAM!!* > > oops ...and that kids, is how vinegar is made! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 17:18:26 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 17:18:26 -0500 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4dab6786.29d7e70a.6ab3.ffff9c73@mx.google.com> At 09:24 PM 4/16/2011, you wrote: >Hi Dave, > > I know I need a license, but I'm just starting > to dig into things, obviously want a 2 way > system, kinda hoping I can do an attic based > antenna if at all possible, I remember a bit > from when I was a kid about atmosphere bouncing > and such, but I have a lot of rust to scrap off > my memories... why do you have some gear > you're looking to part with and any chance you coming up to VCF East? I lived in a typical Milwaukee 2-story duplex for several years, with those wonderful walk-in attics. Even tho I was on the first floor, I was able to drop a fishing sinker down the outside of the sewer vent from the attic. A little jiggling on the line got it to fall all the way through to the basement. I then pulled down a heavy duty polyester pull-string, and then some coax. I put a wire dipole up there for six meters (50Mhz) and a few 2 meter yagis and dipoles. The yagi was on a cheep TV antenna rotator. Once when I had to be in Arlington Height and Rolling Meadows, I called my wife (also licensed) on 2 meter simplex. It was choppy but perfectly copyable. Now I live in a one-story home with high ground all around me. I have a 12-foot tower on the roof with about eight feet of mast sticking out. I have 6m, 2m, and 70cm antennae up there and do alright, but definitely not spectacularly. Many of us old 6-meter fans are awaiting redemption. We have been in a long trough of low solar activity, which normally ramps up and then down again on an 11-year cycle, but this one we're going into isn't setting the ionosphere on fire yet. Not by a long shot. Six meters is often called "the magic band" because of how it sometimes acts like a local/regional band and then goes nuts and lets you chat with folks several countries away. I used to play with aurora-mode on six. Any time there's reports of strong aurora borealis up north, I'd turn my antenna north, bounce a signal off the aurora, and chat with folks almost due west of me. I've worked people in Colorado and Nevada, from SE Wisconsin, with my beam pointed north. The raspy whisper of aurora mode takes some getting used to. Someone else will have to talk about the ping jockeys that bounce a highspeed morse signal off the ion trails left by the almost continuous rain of small meteors hitting the atmosphere and burning up. I've never tried it but it's an amazing mode. Hope that whets the appetite a little. >Curt > > > >Dave McGuire wrote: >>On 4/16/11 9:07 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>>Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested in getting some equipment >>>to setup a HAM radio transmission/reception system and possibly look to >>>hook it up to a terminal for text transmission too. I'm totally in the >>>dark on this, so I'm looking for anybody who can point me in the right >>>directions, thanks. >> >> I'm not a licensed amateur radio operator >> anymore, but I was for many years. My license >> is long since expired. I've always planned to >> get back into it, but I've not yet managed to do so. I do miss it. >> >> Have you had any exposure to ham >> radio? You're aware that a license is >> required to transmit, yes? Do you have any >> knowledge of bands/local vs. distance/modes etc? >> >> -Dave > > >432 . [SF] Dimissed! --Janeway. B...but.. >--Neelix. That's Starfleet for "get out." --Janeway (The Cloud) >NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) >"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK >43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc >LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? >Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 17 17:47:30 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 23:47:30 +0100 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <20110416164821.GA13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20110416164821.GA13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4DAB6E02.8060007@philpem.me.uk> On 16/04/11 17:48, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > And don't get me started on the (bloody expensive btw) commercial software > for it. With pearls like this one: A GUI that claims to be for X11 ... only > it was written by taking the Windows version and "porting it" (presumably, > from the look of things, done by an overworked and underskilled intern) > to X11 by compiling it against a library that emulates enough of the Windows > build environment to get it to work on X11. The result is ... bloody damn > unusable and of course the application still thinks it is running on Windows. Dare I ask if you're referring to Xilinx's "wonderful" ISE Design System? Altera seemingly learned a lesson long ago: sometimes software is just too old to maintain. Compared to ISE (and even the old Altera MAX+PLUS development system), Quartus is a dream to use. ISE has more bugs (I've found several Logic Synthesizer bugs in ISE, none in Quartus), is less stable (on average several crashes per day; I've never seen Quartus crash)... You'll only need one guess to figure out why I prefer the Altera chips, despite their little quirks. I love the direct-drive LVDS transceivers on Xilinx chips, but I can live with the three-resistor driver on the Altera chips... > Well, gcc is an interesting choice as by its very nature it is very, very > far from trivial. It currently supports 7 languages in the standard pack > (plus another 8 not in the default build) as well as 20 different cpu > architectures in the standard build (plus a ton more in different versions). > That is not exactly what I would choose as a starter project in open source > hacking. I once tried to fix a bug in the gcc lm32 arch. All I got for my trouble was a really big headache... I think I'll leave it to the folks with long, grey beards, coke-bottle glasses and suspenders in future... Can't say I've ever found a bug in the gcc x86 or x86_64 architectures though. That said, they're probably the most intensively tested (and used) of all the gcc archs, so it's hardly surprising... LM32 is a minor footnote by comparison. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Apr 17 17:50:50 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:50:50 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 - question about powering reader Message-ID: <38d12b1c$2d4e2764$3fc2f721$@com> > > The power supply for the reader in an ASR-33 is in the base, mounted > near the top. A good picture of it can be seen here: > > http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/old_rdr_power.shtml > > I gather from your pics that you're running your ASR-33 baseless? > > -Dave > Yes, but I should be able to track down the power supply in my stuff someplace. I will rejoin the base to the tty asap. bd From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 17 18:26:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 16:26:44 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DAB6E02.8060007@philpem.me.uk> References: , <20110416164821.GA13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4DAB6E02.8060007@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DAB14C4.12954.852C1A@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2011 at 23:47, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Dare I ask if you're referring to Xilinx's "wonderful" ISE Design > System? > You'll only need one guess to figure out why I prefer the Altera > chips, despite their little quirks. I love the direct-drive LVDS > transceivers on Xilinx chips, but I can live with the three-resistor > driver on the Altera chips... Actually, the last time I installed Xilinx ISE, it took me about 3 tries to get it to install on Windows (finally got it to fly with a fresh Windows OS install). On Linux, it just installed and worked the first time (Ubuntu--and Ubuntu's not even mentioned as one of the supported distros). Quartus has never failed to install for me on either platform. I like Xilinx 5V XC95xx CPLDs--you just seem to get more efficient usage than say the Altera MAX7000S series. Of couse, these are old technologies, but then, this is a list for old stuff, isn't it? --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Apr 17 18:28:59 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 16:28:59 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DAB024A.9050403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I have a flashlite 186 SBC, as well as a SBC based on a 68HC11, and a couple baords based around altera Cyclone chips.. Then I also have the Z80 SBCs (N8VEM SBC V1, V2 and Mini.) On 4/17/11 8:07 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 4/16/11 4:21 PM, Chris M wrote: >> I'd like to hear from 1 person on this list that currently owns an 80186/88 >> based SBC. > > Dammit, ask me this next year. I have an 80188-based design sitting > in a work directory just about done, but I haven't started on the > hardware yet. > > -Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 17 18:37:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 16:37:54 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4DAB024A.9050403@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4DAB1762.2191.8F63F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2011 at 16:28, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > I have a flashlite 186 SBC, as well as a SBC based on a 68HC11, and a > couple baords based around altera Cyclone chips.. Then I also have the > Z80 SBCs (N8VEM SBC V1, V2 and Mini.) I'm sorking on and off with a little V40 SBC from a FAX gizmo that I repurposed. 256K of RAM, 256K of EPROM/flash and a 1.44M floppy drive. RS232C I/O. Runs CP/M-86 just fine. I much prefer the V40 to the 80188; the on-chip peripherals more closely resemble the x86 support chips. Late versions of the 80C188 were getting to be that way also, but ISTR that they come in surface- mount only. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 18:47:40 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:47:40 -0300 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. References: <4DAB024A.9050403@neurotica.com>, <4DAB1762.2191.8F63F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I much prefer the V40 to the 80188; the on-chip peripherals more > closely resemble the x86 support chips. Late versions of the 80C188 > were getting to be that way also, but ISTR that they come in surface- > mount only. PLCC? There are DIP sockets for it :) From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sun Apr 17 19:01:08 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: QED 993 Message-ID: <8CDCB72DAB8D10F-F94-D26B@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> You won't need documentation for this unit, if you're just going to use it. The on-board jumpers are readily decoded - Q22 C/D (For BA23/BA123 and similar) Q22/Q22 for H9275 and similar backplanes. W/BB or W/O BB - most folks won't have battery back-up for their CPU. Remove your current CPU and all memory, and install the 993 in slot one. Shift all of your other boards up accordingly. It uses the standard DEC 11/93 I/O bulkhead (which is also for sale by ISSCCorp.) It will probably start up asking for a boot device. Hit control-C twice to get to the boot menu, which will give you the option to get into the boot menu, setup menu, and diagnostics menu. You can completely configure the board from there. Enjoy ! T From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Apr 17 19:21:36 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:21:36 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4dab6786.29d7e70a.6ab3.ffff9c73@mx.google.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4dab6786.29d7e70a.6ab3.ffff9c73@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4DAB8410.1040606@atarimuseum.com> Yes, I remember reading about people could sometimes talk a world away on the 6meter and that is damned cool! :-) We're right in the middle of the next big solar spike so communications will be wonky, temps with suddenly spike (I'm sure Al Gore will love that) and we'll probably see some brown outs and power grid anomolies... oh joy! ;-) Tom wrote: > At 09:24 PM 4/16/2011, you wrote: >> Hi Dave, >> >> I know I need a license, but I'm just starting to dig into things, >> obviously want a 2 way system, kinda hoping I can do an attic based >> antenna if at all possible, I remember a bit from when I was a kid >> about atmosphere bouncing and such, but I have a lot of rust to scrap >> off my memories... why do you have some gear you're looking to part >> with and any chance you coming up to VCF East? > > I lived in a typical Milwaukee 2-story duplex for several years, with > those wonderful walk-in attics. Even tho I was on the first floor, I > was able to drop a fishing sinker down the outside of the sewer vent > from the attic. A little jiggling on the line got it to fall all the > way through to the basement. I then pulled down a heavy duty polyester > pull-string, and then some coax. > > I put a wire dipole up there for six meters (50Mhz) and a few 2 meter > yagis and dipoles. The yagi was on a cheep TV antenna rotator. Once > when I had to be in Arlington Height and Rolling Meadows, I called my > wife (also licensed) on 2 meter simplex. It was choppy but perfectly > copyable. > > Now I live in a one-story home with high ground all around me. I have > a 12-foot tower on the roof with about eight feet of mast sticking > out. I have 6m, 2m, and 70cm antennae up there and do alright, but > definitely not spectacularly. > > Many of us old 6-meter fans are awaiting redemption. We have been in a > long trough of low solar activity, which normally ramps up and then > down again on an 11-year cycle, but this one we're going into isn't > setting the ionosphere on fire yet. Not by a long shot. Six meters is > often called "the magic band" because of how it sometimes acts like a > local/regional band and then goes nuts and lets you chat with folks > several countries away. > > I used to play with aurora-mode on six. Any time there's reports of > strong aurora borealis up north, I'd turn my antenna north, bounce a > signal off the aurora, and chat with folks almost due west of me. I've > worked people in Colorado and Nevada, from SE Wisconsin, with my beam > pointed north. The raspy whisper of aurora mode takes some getting > used to. > > Someone else will have to talk about the ping jockeys that bounce a > highspeed morse signal off the ion trails left by the almost > continuous rain of small meteors hitting the atmosphere and burning > up. I've never tried it but it's an amazing mode. > > Hope that whets the appetite a little. > >> Curt >> >> >> >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 4/16/11 9:07 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>>> Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested in getting some equipment >>>> to setup a HAM radio transmission/reception system and possibly >>>> look to >>>> hook it up to a terminal for text transmission too. I'm totally in the >>>> dark on this, so I'm looking for anybody who can point me in the right >>>> directions, thanks. >>> >>> I'm not a licensed amateur radio operator anymore, but I was for >>> many years. My license is long since expired. I've always planned to >>> get back into it, but I've not yet managed to do so. I do miss it. >>> >>> Have you had any exposure to ham radio? You're aware that a license >>> is required to transmit, yes? Do you have any knowledge of >>> bands/local vs. distance/modes etc? >>> >>> -Dave >> >> >> 432 . [SF] Dimissed! --Janeway. B...but.. --Neelix. That's Starfleet >> for "get out." --Janeway (The Cloud) >> NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) >> "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON >> FACEBOOK >> 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc >> LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux >> User 385531 > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 17 19:22:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 17:22:45 -0700 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: References: <4DAB024A.9050403@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4DAB21E5.30568.B87521@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2011 at 20:47, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > PLCC? There are DIP sockets for it :) Nope--the 80C188EC; 4 DMA channels, 2 UARTS, 2 8259-type PICs, DRAM refresh controller, power management, and 22 I/O pins. 3 and 5 volt versions, but comes in 100 pin QFP only. The -EB comes in PLCC84, but omits the DMA controller and other goodies for 2 UARTs--5V only. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Apr 17 19:53:33 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 17:53:33 -0700 Subject: Control Data - TRG Division microwave stuff Message-ID: <7a5e29eeaa64fddd96d3d8491a3da9b6@cs.ubc.ca> Some old microwave stuff came into the radio museum lately, probably 60/70s vintage, amongst which was a piece with a "Control Data - TRG Division" label on it. Control Data was even imprinted on the waveguide adjustment micrometers. Idle curiousity, but anyone know how CD was involved with microwave waveguide componentry, or what the TRG Division was? (Chuck?) I didn't know CD branched out into anything beyond computing. From db at db.net Sun Apr 17 20:01:26 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 21:01:26 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAB8410.1040606@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4dab6786.29d7e70a.6ab3.ffff9c73@mx.google.com> <4DAB8410.1040606@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110418010126.GA42334@night.db.net> On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 08:21:36PM -0400, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yes, I remember reading about people could sometimes talk a world away > on the 6meter and that is damned cool! :-) Seeing as *someone* mentioned freenode ##asm, I suppose I could mention freenode #hamradio. *cough* - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 17 20:31:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:31:59 -0700 Subject: Control Data - TRG Division microwave stuff In-Reply-To: <7a5e29eeaa64fddd96d3d8491a3da9b6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7a5e29eeaa64fddd96d3d8491a3da9b6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DAB321F.973.36912D@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2011 at 17:53, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Some old microwave stuff came into the radio museum lately, probably > 60/70s vintage, amongst which was a piece with a "Control Data - TRG > Division" label on it. Control Data was even imprinted on the > waveguide adjustment micrometers. Idle curiousity, but anyone know how > CD was involved with microwave waveguide componentry, or what the TRG > Division was? (Chuck?) I didn't know CD branched out into anything > beyond computing. I know that CDC had some division in New York that did spook stuff, but that's about it. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 20:34:50 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 21:34:50 -0400 Subject: Control Data - TRG Division microwave stuff In-Reply-To: References: <7a5e29eeaa64fddd96d3d8491a3da9b6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: CDC bought TRG, a company that made microwave stuff back in the 60s. CDC also branched out into medical equipment, industrial controls, art books, used cars, shotguns, and vodka. -- Will On Apr 17, 2011 6:54 PM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: Some old microwave stuff came into the radio museum lately, probably 60/70s vintage, amongst which was a piece with a "Control Data - TRG Division" label on it. Control Data was even imprinted on the waveguide adjustment micrometers. Idle curiousity, but anyone know how CD was involved with microwave waveguide componentry, or what the TRG Division was? (Chuck?) I didn't know CD branched out into anything beyond computing. From cvisors at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 20:53:11 2011 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Ivy Gardiner) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:53:11 +1000 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hi Dave, > > ?I know I need a license, but I'm just starting to dig into things, > obviously want a 2 way system, kinda hoping I can do an attic based antenna > if at all possible, I remember a bit from when I was a kid about atmosphere > bouncing and such, but I have a lot of rust to scrap off my memories... ?why > do you have some gear you're looking to part with and any chance you coming > up to VCF East? > > > Curt > > > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> On 4/16/11 9:07 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> >>> Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested in getting some equipment >>> to setup a HAM radio transmission/reception system and possibly look to >>> hook it up to a terminal for text transmission too. I'm totally in the >>> dark on this, so I'm looking for anybody who can point me in the right >>> directions, thanks. >> >> ?I'm not a licensed amateur radio operator anymore, but I was for many >> years. ?My license is long since expired. ?I've always planned to get back >> into it, but I've not yet managed to do so. ?I do miss it. >> >> ?Have you had any exposure to ham radio? ?You're aware that a license is >> required to transmit, yes? ?Do you have any knowledge of bands/local vs. >> distance/modes etc? >> >> ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >> > One other thing. Other than Packet radio there is PSK31 which can be a lot of fun for text based stuff. My partner was able to communicate with someone in the USA from australia using psk31, using less than 10 watts. Lots of fun. -- VK3IVY http://radio.carnagevisors.net From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 17 21:06:43 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 21:06:43 -0500 Subject: Paul Allen on 60 Minutes Message-ID: Just saw this, he is on tonight Has a tell alll book coming out Randy From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 17 21:22:36 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 03:22:36 +0100 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DAB14C4.12954.852C1A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20110416164821.GA13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4DAB6E02.8060007@philpem.me.uk> <4DAB14C4.12954.852C1A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DABA06C.4000908@philpem.me.uk> On 18/04/11 00:26, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Actually, the last time I installed Xilinx ISE, it took me about 3 > tries to get it to install on Windows (finally got it to fly with a > fresh Windows OS install). On Linux, it just installed and worked > the first time (Ubuntu--and Ubuntu's not even mentioned as one of the > supported distros). It's a pain to make it work on Linux x64. The 64-bit version of ISE doesn't work in any usable fashion -- PlanAhead and PACE are broken-by-design (segfault on start), and firing up the Constraints Editor is a great way to bring it down hard and fast. Xilinx have known about this since the first x64 builds went out to subscription customers. The latest builds are no better... Thankfully the x32 version works fine on a 64-bit box, but you have to jump through some hoops to make it install: http://www.philpem.me.uk/elec/fpga/ise12ubuntu/ For bonus points, the whole thing is linked against an ancient X11 library which can't deal with DISPLAY= strings of the form ":0.0". You have to lose the ".0" or ISE segfaults. > Quartus has never failed to install for me on either platform. Me neither. It's also a hell of a lot easier to make it work -- add a Udev rule to make the USB Blaster work non-root, and that's about it. > I like Xilinx 5V XC95xx CPLDs--you just seem to get more efficient > usage than say the Altera MAX7000S series. Of couse, these are old > technologies, but then, this is a list for old stuff, isn't it? I've got a bunch of XC9500 and XC9500XL parts. The XLs are really, really nice -- 3.3V with 5V-tolerant-and-compatible I/O, 100MHz toggle rate, and a piece of cake to design for. I learned Verilog with a homebrew XC9572XL development board... Only thing I've got against Xilinx is their software. It's high time they took ISE out to pasture and replaced it with something that actually... well... *works* without crashing or going into 100%-CPU loops. A synthesizer that can handle CPU cache constructs without generating faulty netlists would be nice too... (another open bug: three years and counting!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Apr 17 21:47:10 2011 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 19:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DABA06C.4000908@philpem.me.uk> References: , <20110416164821.GA13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4DAB6E02.8060007@philpem.me.uk> <4DAB14C4.12954.852C1A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DABA06C.4000908@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 03:22:36 +0100 > From: Philip Pemberton > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ; > Subject: Re: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick > compilers) > > Only thing I've got against Xilinx is their software. It's high time they > took ISE out to pasture and replaced it with something that actually... > well... *works* without crashing or going into 100%-CPU loops. A synthesizer > that can handle CPU cache constructs without generating faulty netlists would > be nice too... (another open bug: three years and counting!) > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > Other nice ISE features: Dont try synthesising anything for Spartan6 (new synthesiser) without the "keep hierarchy" option if you want it to work and not delete about 20% of your design. also beware of optimize for area, it makes designs that meet timing but dont work (for complicated designs with embedded CPUs and multiple dual ported RAMS at least) The move to the binary project file was especially nice, now when ISE corrupts the project file (which it does with fair regularity), you can no longer fix it. Peter Wallace From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Apr 17 21:49:10 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 22:49:10 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> So could this could be used for Videotex transmissions ? How much bandwidth can you squeeze out of the system? Ivy Gardiner wrote: > On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> I know I need a license, but I'm just starting to dig into things, >> obviously want a 2 way system, kinda hoping I can do an attic based antenna >> if at all possible, I remember a bit from when I was a kid about atmosphere >> bouncing and such, but I have a lot of rust to scrap off my memories... why >> do you have some gear you're looking to part with and any chance you coming >> up to VCF East? >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On 4/16/11 9:07 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> >>>> Any HAM radio operators here? I'm interested in getting some equipment >>>> to setup a HAM radio transmission/reception system and possibly look to >>>> hook it up to a terminal for text transmission too. I'm totally in the >>>> dark on this, so I'm looking for anybody who can point me in the right >>>> directions, thanks. >>>> >>> I'm not a licensed amateur radio operator anymore, but I was for many >>> years. My license is long since expired. I've always planned to get back >>> into it, but I've not yet managed to do so. I do miss it. >>> >>> Have you had any exposure to ham radio? You're aware that a license is >>> required to transmit, yes? Do you have any knowledge of bands/local vs. >>> distance/modes etc? >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> > > One other thing. Other than Packet radio there is PSK31 which can be a > lot of fun for text based stuff. My partner was able to communicate > with someone in the USA from australia using psk31, using less than 10 > watts. > > Lots of fun. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 17 21:59:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 22:59:43 -0400 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DABA06C.4000908@philpem.me.uk> References: , <20110416164821.GA13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4DAB6E02.8060007@philpem.me.uk> <4DAB14C4.12954.852C1A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DABA06C.4000908@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DABA91F.5010300@neurotica.com> On 4/17/11 10:22 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > For bonus points, the whole thing is linked against an ancient X11 > library which can't deal with DISPLAY= strings of the form ":0.0". You > have to lose the ".0" or ISE segfaults. Ok, this is crazy. I've used ":0.0" since probably X11R3, that was twenty years ago. I know of no X Consortium release of X11 that didn't take ":0.0", ever. How did they manage to break that? > I've got a bunch of XC9500 and XC9500XL parts. The XLs are really, > really nice -- 3.3V with 5V-tolerant-and-compatible I/O, 100MHz toggle > rate, and a piece of cake to design for. I learned Verilog with a > homebrew XC9572XL development board... I've used a bunch of XC9500s, I love 'em. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 22:13:14 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 23:13:14 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: When I get back, I suppose I can drag you to one of the upcoming hamfests. I think the BARA show in NJ will be the next for me. Be warned that my tables tend to attract REAL hams (the older guys that still build stuff). I think I could also lend out a nice Icom receiver so you can get a feel of what is out there. -- Will On Apr 17, 2011 8:51 PM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: So could this could be used for Videotex transmissions ? How much bandwidth can you squeeze out of the system? Ivy Gardiner wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum > References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > So could this could be used for Videotex transmissions ? ? How much > bandwidth can you squeeze out of the system? I'm not sure about videotex (I'm not sure even what it is to be honest.) PSK31 is mainly used for text, at around 31baud that was sort of designed for 50 wpm typists. It's one advantage is fairly low bandwidth at around 30Hz or there abouts (from memory and I'm probably wrong to be honest.) ~Ivy -- VK3IVY http://radio.carnagevisors.net From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Apr 18 00:21:15 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 00:21:15 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110416232618.GG13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <201104110311.p3B3BFR7016242@floodgap.com> <20110416232618.GG13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4DABCA4B.3050503@tx.rr.com> On 4/16/2011 6:26 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 11:19:50PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >>> This is sad, though the project is going open source, but it would be >>> nice to see someone continue the Kermit name. Ed's just the messenger; >>> don't contact him about Kermit. >> >> To be realistic here - how much does Kermit really matter in today's >> IT environment, other that to to people like us? > > I use it to talk to the LOM of my Sun V100 (sitting in the IKEA shelf > behind me, earning its electricity as backup, squid and NTP server). > > It is also my first choice if I have to talk via serial port to some > device that speaks a human readable protocol atop serial. > > It Just Works (TM). > > Kind regards, > Alex. You're definitely right about the Just Works part. About 15 years ago I used it to implement a remote code loader over dial-up phone lines - about 1MB of code per download. Using short packets and the 16 bit CRC error detection, I've seen it successfully download in the face of an incredible number of packets in error. It's still in use today AFAIK. Later, Charlie C. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 18 00:35:08 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 22:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4DABCA4B.3050503@tx.rr.com> References: <201104110311.p3B3BFR7016242@floodgap.com> <20110416232618.GG13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DABCA4B.3050503@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20110417223140.P15294@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Charlie Carothers wrote: > You're definitely right about the Just Works part. About 15 years ago I > used it to implement a remote code loader over dial-up phone lines - > about 1MB of code per download. Using short packets and the 16 bit CRC > error detection, I've seen it successfully download in the face of an > incredible number of packets in error. It's still in use today AFAIK. Surely, the remote code download that you started running 15 years ago must be almost finished by now. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 18 00:40:26 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 01:40:26 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DABCECA.8050900@atarimuseum.com> Cool Will, thanks much bud!!! Curt William Donzelli wrote: > When I get back, I suppose I can drag you to one of the upcoming hamfests. I > think the BARA show in NJ will be the next for me. Be warned that my tables > tend to attract REAL hams (the older guys that still build stuff). I think I > could also lend out a nice Icom receiver so you can get a feel of what is > out there. > > -- > Will > > On Apr 17, 2011 8:51 PM, "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > > So could this could be used for Videotex transmissions ? How much > bandwidth can you squeeze out of the system? > > > > > > > Ivy Gardiner wrote: > >> On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 12:24 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum >> > > > From evan at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 00:41:50 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 01:41:50 -0400 Subject: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years Message-ID: <4DABCF1E.5050204@snarc.net> Sorry if this point has already been discussed; I'm very late to the thread and too lazy to search. :) Which * individuals * at Columbia led the original Kermit project? No names are mentioned at http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/, or on Wikipedia, etc. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 18 00:41:57 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 01:41:57 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DABCF25.9050403@atarimuseum.com> I figured that was kind of wishful thinking.... When the guys setup "Aloha net" in the pre-Arpanet says, what were they using for their radio packet switching network??? Ivy Gardiner wrote: > On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > >> So could this could be used for Videotex transmissions ? How much >> bandwidth can you squeeze out of the system? >> > > I'm not sure about videotex (I'm not sure even what it is to be honest.) > > PSK31 is mainly used for text, at around 31baud that was sort of > designed for 50 wpm typists. > > It's one advantage is fairly low bandwidth at around 30Hz or there > abouts (from memory and I'm probably wrong to be honest.) > > ~Ivy > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 18 01:01:12 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 23:01:12 -0700 Subject: Control Data - TRG Division microwave stuff In-Reply-To: References: <7a5e29eeaa64fddd96d3d8491a3da9b6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <63f907c8f366e4b63aebe81bc27c1337@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 17, at 6:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > CDC bought TRG, a company that made microwave stuff back in the 60s. > CDC > also branched out into medical equipment, industrial controls, art > books, > used cars, shotguns, and vodka. Sounds like somebody got a little happy with bags of excess cash. I knew CDC was doing well in that era, but not that well. I do remember hearing about medical and education stuff they were into, I guess that was the stuff that looked good for publicity. > -- > Will > > On Apr 17, 2011 6:54 PM, "Brent Hilpert" wrote: > > Some old microwave stuff came into the radio museum lately, probably > 60/70s > vintage, amongst which was a piece with a "Control Data - TRG Division" > label on it. Control Data was even imprinted on the waveguide > adjustment > micrometers. Idle curiousity, but anyone know how CD was involved with > microwave waveguide componentry, or what the TRG Division was? > (Chuck?) I > didn't know CD branched out into anything beyond computing. > From jonas at otter.se Sun Apr 17 13:29:32 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:29:32 +0200 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 92, Issue 25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> > I think the mole is defined from the number of attons in a certain mass > of a certain isotope of an certain element (carbon 12 IIRC) > The mole is the amount of a substance which contains Avogadro's number (6.0225 ? 10^23 ) of atoms or molecules of the substance. Stated differently, it is the same amount of grammes of the substance as that element's molecular weight. The definition says that it is the amount of a substance which contains the same number of molecules of the substance as 12 grammes of carbon-12, which is a way of expressing the number of molecules in such a manner that the required number of molecules can be provided by means of weighing, which involves a comparison :-) I suppose Tony's teacher would have wanted him to measure out a mole of sugar by counting the number of molecules of sugar... /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Sun Apr 17 13:41:40 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:41:40 +0200 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAB3464.7070005@otter.se> > I pointed out I';d jsut been thrown out of the library. I am happy to say that nobody at any of the schools I attended would have dreamed of throwing a student out of the library just because they were there reading. Tony must have been particularly unfortunate. And as far as Fred's experience with college admins go, thankfully I don't think that kind of thing happens here. I would be surprised to hear that it did. I suppose I should be thankful to be where I am. /Jonas From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Apr 17 15:06:15 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: In Bay Area, available for drooling In-Reply-To: <4DAB40F8.9050302@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <301576.42674.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> what could possibly be remaining in the Mindset dep't that you don't already have Curt... --- On Sun, 4/17/11, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hey Will, keep an eye out for Corvus > and Mindset gear for me please... From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 01:18:56 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 23:18:56 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: <4DABA06C.4000908@philpem.me.uk> References: , <20110416164821.GA13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4DAB6E02.8060007@philpem.me.uk> <4DAB14C4.12954.852C1A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DABA06C.4000908@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DABD7D0.6080707@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote about Xilinx ISE: > > It's a pain to make it work on Linux x64. The 64-bit version of ISE > doesn't work in any usable fashion -- PlanAhead and PACE are > broken-by-design (segfault on start), and firing up the Constraints > Editor is a great way to bring it down hard and fast. I've had 64-bit ISE 10.x, 11.x, and 12.x working on Fedora 12, 13, and 14 without the problems you describe. Presumably this works because RHEL5, which Xilinx supports, is closely related to Fedora. What distribution are you using? You might want to try Centos 5, which is essentially identical to RHEL5. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 01:21:19 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 23:21:19 -0700 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between Quick compilers) In-Reply-To: References: , <20110416164821.GA13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>, <4DAB6E02.8060007@philpem.me.uk> <4DAB14C4.12954.852C1A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DABA06C.4000908@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DABD85F.1080602@brouhaha.com> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Other nice ISE features: > > Dont try synthesising anything for Spartan6 (new synthesiser) without > the "keep hierarchy" option if you want it to work and not delete > about 20% of your design. > > also beware of optimize for area, it makes designs that meet timing > but dont work (for complicated designs with embedded CPUs and > multiple dual ported RAMS at least) Scary! I've only been using Spartan-3, -3E, and -3A, and don't yet have any Spartan-6 boards. I've tried synthesizing a few of my designs for Spartan-6 to see how the static timing analysis compares, but it sounds like my results probably weren't valid. Eric From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Apr 18 01:34:10 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 01:34:10 -0500 Subject: [IP] Fwd: Columbia terminates Kermit Project after 30 years (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20110417223140.P15294@shell.lmi.net> References: <201104110311.p3B3BFR7016242@floodgap.com> <20110416232618.GG13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DABCA4B.3050503@tx.rr.com> <20110417223140.P15294@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DABDB62.1070502@tx.rr.com> On 4/18/2011 12:35 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Charlie Carothers wrote: >> You're definitely right about the Just Works part. About 15 years ago I >> used it to implement a remote code loader over dial-up phone lines - >> about 1MB of code per download. Using short packets and the 16 bit CRC >> error detection, I've seen it successfully download in the face of an >> incredible number of packets in error. It's still in use today AFAIK. > > Surely, the remote code download that you started running 15 years ago > must be almost finished by now. > LOL! (Well at 300 baud I dunno. :-) ) OK, the actual download baud rate could be anything from 2400 to 33,600, depending. And at the slower rates, yes it could take a good while - though not 15 years! Still, it was much better than the alternative which involved a laptop at the remote site, with a real serial port, with a qualified person in attendance, with a bit of jumper fiddling, etc. etc. Later, Charlie C. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 18 02:10:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 00:10:23 -0700 Subject: Control Data - TRG Division microwave stuff In-Reply-To: <63f907c8f366e4b63aebe81bc27c1337@cs.ubc.ca> References: <7a5e29eeaa64fddd96d3d8491a3da9b6@cs.ubc.ca>, , <63f907c8f366e4b63aebe81bc27c1337@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DAB816F.5336.16C6026@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Apr 2011 at 23:01, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Sounds like somebody got a little happy with bags of excess cash. I > knew CDC was doing well in that era, but not that well. Government sales was very good to CDC. I heard it mentioned that if CDC had a new high-end processor, they automatically assumed that FNWC (Fleet Numeric Weather Control in Monterey) would buy at least one. I remember that office correspondence during the late 60's / early 70's was all typed on typewriters with the really ugly OCR-A font installed, evidently out of the vision of automating corporate paperwork through OCR because of some early machine-reader firm that was aquired. Eventually, the ugly typewriters were jettisoned. Some good stuff and some hair-brained stuff came when CDC got SBC out of the IBM lawsuit. It's hard to imagine that any firm would have no clue of what to do with a coast-to-coast network of computer systems, but there you go. Control Data Institute, the PLATO education effort, Tickettron, and a bunch of very strange ventures came out of the attempt to use the capability. Commercial Credit was another late 60's acquisition (I guess it evolved into Citicorp). If you were relocating, CCC handled your home sale and financing. You could even deposit money in a CCC account for better-than-market rates. One thing that CDC had in abundance was Vice Presidents. At one point, I remember counting 128 of them. --Chuck From ahow at live.co.uk Mon Apr 18 05:23:51 2011 From: ahow at live.co.uk (Anne Howard) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:23:51 +0100 Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? In-Reply-To: 47D4B257.3080600@atarimuseum.com Message-ID: Can you help me. I have just sorted out my loft and found my 800xl console with loads of games (on diskette) and a rather sad 1050 diskette drive. I have got dos diskettes and also translators and emulators. Unfortunately after 25+ years I cannot remember how to load things properly. I have some notes as to when a program needs translator but not sure the order to load up. I have multiple games on the diskettes which a friend gave me!!! So when exactly do I load the translator diskette ? is it right at start up and before dos (some diskettes have a subset of dos on in any case) . It is so long ago. I have searched on the internet and not found much luck. thanks in advance. A Howard From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 07:39:38 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 05:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <744002.50205.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/18/11, Anne Howard wrote: > From: Anne Howard > Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, April 18, 2011, 6:23 AM > Can you help me. I have just > sorted out my loft and found my 800xl console with > loads of games (on diskette) and a rather sad 1050 diskette > drive. I have got dos diskettes and also translators > and emulators. Unfortunately after 25+ years I cannot > remember how to load things properly. I have some > notes as to when a program needs translator but not sure the > order to load up. I have multiple games on the > diskettes which a friend gave me!!! > > So when exactly do I load the translator diskette ? is it > right at start up and before dos (some diskettes have a > subset of dos on in any case) . It is so long > ago. I have searched on the internet and not found > much luck. You boot the translator disk, and then the translator comes up with a screen prompting you to insert the disk to boot. You generally do not boot a DOS disk unless you're working with files - games and such all autoboot. -Ian From db at db.net Mon Apr 18 07:56:08 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:56:08 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110418125608.GA44395@night.db.net> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 03:09:12PM +1000, Ivy Gardiner wrote: > On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > > So could this could be used for Videotex transmissions ? ? How much > > bandwidth can you squeeze out of the system? > > I'm not sure about videotex (I'm not sure even what it is to be honest.) Telidon and Prestel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telidon) Slow scan tv would be the closest to graphics, at least on HF. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow-scan_television You could run up old fashioned analogue fast scan tv on the higher bands. I don't know of any amateur doing digital tv *yet* but I am sure it has already happened. http://www.darc.de/distrikte/p/07/betriebsarten/ \ amateurfunkfernsehen/digitales-atv/ - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 18 09:18:07 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 07:18:07 -0700 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com>,<4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com>, , <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > From: curt at atarimuseum.com ---snip---> >> > >> I know I need a license, but I'm just starting to dig into things, > >> obviously want a 2 way system, kinda hoping I can do an attic based antenna > >> if at all possible, I remember a bit from when I was a kid about atmosphere > >> bouncing and such, but I have a lot of rust to scrap off my memories... why > >> do you have some gear you're looking to part with and any chance you coming > >> up to VCF East? > >> > >> > >> Curt Hi I thought I'd mention, the recieving antenna is quite forgiving about wavelengths but the transmitting antenna needs to be tuned or you'll damage your final. Making a tuned antenna in the attic can be a little tricky. Dwight From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Apr 18 09:34:00 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 10:34:00 -0400 Subject: Info on QED 993 (QBus PDP-11 processor) In-Reply-To: <4DAA4D71.9080609@mail.msu.edu> References: <4DAA4D71.9080609@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4DAC4BD8.7090309@compsys.to> >Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone have any documentation on a QED 993 processor? From what I've > been able to find on the 'net (which is not much) it's a 3rd-party, > Qbus-based, quad-width PDP-11 upgrade, which has 4MB of RAM onboard > and is supposedly faster than 11/93. > > I just took a gamble on one (the seller icsscorp on eBay -- the same > seller who had the CMD SCSI boards a week or so back -- has been > auctioning a bunch of these off one by one) and I'm hoping to put it > in my 11/73. It'd be nice to have some official documentation. Does anyone have a contact name, perhaps a contact e-mail address of phone number? Everything suggests that icsscorp is in Canada. So I would not need to clear customs, perhaps even get local pickup if they are in Toronto or Calgary. Have anyone an idea of how much faster the QED 993 is compared to the PDP-11/93? I heard *3 at one point, but was never able to confirm. Jerome Fine From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 18 09:43:48 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 10:43:48 -0400 Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAC4E24.2000501@atarimuseum.com> Yiou only will need the Translator for those games/applications that were specifically mapped to use illegal OS calls in the Atari 800, even Atari itself did this. What the Translator essentially does is layer itself over the XL OS with the older 800OS making it compatible with certain games/apps that could only run on the original 800. So try your games/apps first without it and if they don't boot, then try with the Translator. Also BASIC is enabled by default on the 800XL, and some games/apps cannot have it resident when it loads and will just stop during the load up. So before powering up the system, hold the OPTION key down and this will disable the onboard BASIC and load up your game/app without. Curt Anne Howard wrote: > Can you help me. I have just sorted out my loft and found my 800xl console with loads of games (on diskette) and a rather sad 1050 diskette drive. I have got dos diskettes and also translators and emulators. Unfortunately after 25+ years I cannot remember how to load things properly. I have some notes as to when a program needs translator but not sure the order to load up. I have multiple games on the diskettes which a friend gave me!!! > > So when exactly do I load the translator diskette ? is it right at start up and before dos (some diskettes have a subset of dos on in any case) . It is so long ago. I have searched on the internet and not found much luck. > > thanks in advance. > > > A Howard > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 10:14:22 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:14:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? In-Reply-To: <4DAC4E24.2000501@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <334111.35653.qm@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/18/11, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > What the Translator > essentially does is layer itself over the XL OS with the > older 800OS making it compatible with certain games/apps > that could only run on the original 800. Is it basically just loading the original 800's ROM into memory and using that, or doing some other kind of patching? My first computer was an Atari 130xe - I remember having both a toggle switch to change the OS ROMs, and the translator disk, and different programs requiring different steps to load. It was a long time ago, and unfortunately, my XE died in the late 90's and I was never able to get it working again - so my memory is really hazy. Was there more than one translator disk? I seem to remember having more than one - and they had different colored screens when they ran. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 18 10:47:14 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:47:14 -0600 Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 Message-ID: ebay item # 190523729625 This seller routinely lists vintage items at very high prices. (SWTPC 6809 for $2,989.99; Apple IIe $99.99; IBM external 3.5" floppy $99.99 as examples.) Now apparently he's getting out of the business. I doubt anyone is going to pay $200K for his inventory. I seriously doubt his claim that his inventory has a value of $700K. He does have quite a number of interesting systems still in stock. I believe this is because he asks too much money for them. I also suspect that he buys things from other ebay sellers and then marks them up, which is why his prices are higher than the average ebay market price for the same item. I have literally seen an item sell on ebay and then the exact same item listed on his store within a few days for a significant markup. Since he is "retiring", someone in NY might be able to show up and get a bargain. Because I am not close and had a bad experience with him before, I won't be approaching him, but maybe you'll have better luck. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 18 10:47:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:47:55 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com>, <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com>, , <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DAC5D2B.2030006@neurotica.com> On 4/18/11 10:18 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I thought I'd mention, the recieving antenna is quite forgiving about wavelengths > but the transmitting antenna needs to be tuned or you'll damage your final. And I will throw in here, for both points: Tuned antennas for receiving do work better than untuned ones, and all (or nearly all) rigs with solid-state finals will back off the drive as SWR goes up. > Making a tuned antenna in the attic can be a little tricky. ...and don't fall into the "transmatch as a panacea" trap. Antenna tuners are almost always useful, and with any half-decent one you can get a nearly-1:1 SWR with pretty much anything that conducts, but that won't make it a good radiator. Remember, a dummy load has 1:1 SWR! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 18 10:49:24 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Richard wrote: > Now apparently he's getting out of the business. I doubt anyone is > going to pay $200K for his inventory. I seriously doubt his claim > that his inventory has a value of $700K. > There's a sucker out there just for him I suspect. Now all I have to do is wait for wiredforservice to stop hawking HIS overpriced crap. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 18 10:54:52 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:54:52 -0400 Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? In-Reply-To: <334111.35653.qm@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <334111.35653.qm@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DAC5ECC.4080304@atarimuseum.com> There was a 1200XL specific Translater, but the later 800XL superceded it and covered the 1200XL, and the 600/800XL's. The 65XE/130XE had an XE version translater, but you could get by on the XL translator on the 65XE as it was just an 800XL with a FREDDIE MMU added in. There were 3 different XL versions of the translators, so you are correct - some booted up in black screen, one was an orange-red boot up and another a blue boot up screen. Curt Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Mon, 4/18/11, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> What the Translator >> essentially does is layer itself over the XL OS with the >> older 800OS making it compatible with certain games/apps >> that could only run on the original 800. >> > > Is it basically just loading the original 800's ROM into memory and using that, or doing some other kind of patching? > > My first computer was an Atari 130xe - I remember having both a toggle switch to change the OS ROMs, and the translator disk, and different programs requiring different steps to load. It was a long time ago, and unfortunately, my XE died in the late 90's and I was never able to get it working again - so my memory is really hazy. > > Was there more than one translator disk? I seem to remember having more than one - and they had different colored screens when they ran. > > -Ian > > From db at db.net Mon Apr 18 11:26:19 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:26:19 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAC5D2B.2030006@neurotica.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> <4DAC5D2B.2030006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110418162619.GA46901@night.db.net> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 11:47:55AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/18/11 10:18 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > I thought I'd mention, the recieving antenna is quite forgiving about > > wavelengths > >but the transmitting antenna needs to be tuned or you'll damage your final. > > And I will throw in here, for both points: Tuned antennas for > receiving do work better than untuned ones, and all (or nearly all) rigs > with solid-state finals will back off the drive as SWR goes up. > > >Making a tuned antenna in the attic can be a little tricky. > > ...and don't fall into the "transmatch as a panacea" trap. Antenna And this is where I disagree. For a small suburban lot, a transmatch and some wire can make a lot of sense. > tuners are almost always useful, and with any half-decent one you can > get a nearly-1:1 SWR with pretty much anything that conducts, but that Conersely, a 1:1 SWR does not make an antenna any good, a dummy load is 1:1. Sheesh the SWR myth continues and continues and won't die. I suggest reading http://www.k4mg.com/Antenna%20Design%20the%20Easy%20Way.htm http://www.w2du.com/Chapter01.pdf > won't make it a good radiator. Remember, a dummy load has 1:1 SWR! Exactly! A dummy load is 1:1! It's better to talk about the antenna system. Ok folks, I think we have over stayed the amateur radio topic for now. ;-) Dave, get your ticket back you lid. ;-) It's very easy now and the fun one can do is worth it. > > -Dave - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 18 11:31:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:31:14 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <20110418162619.GA46901@night.db.net> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> <4DAC5D2B.2030006@neurotica.com> <20110418162619.GA46901@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DAC6752.3020308@neurotica.com> On 4/18/11 12:26 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: >> ...and don't fall into the "transmatch as a panacea" trap. Antenna > > And this is where I disagree. For a small suburban lot, a transmatch > and some wire can make a lot of sense. I never said they were useless, I said they aren't a panacea, which they aren't. >> tuners are almost always useful, and with any half-decent one you can >> get a nearly-1:1 SWR with pretty much anything that conducts, but that > > Conersely, a 1:1 SWR does not make an antenna any good, a dummy load > is 1:1. > > Sheesh the SWR myth continues and continues and won't die. Um, no. If you'd read a bit further in my message, this is exactly what I was illustrating. >> won't make it a good radiator. Remember, a dummy load has 1:1 SWR! > > Exactly! A dummy load is 1:1! It's better to talk about the antenna system. So now you agree with me, after saying I was wrong? WTF? > Dave, get your ticket back you lid. ;-) It's very easy now and the > fun one can do is worth it. I'd love to, and I'm planning on it. At the moment, however, I'm working on a new place to live, where I'll actually have some space to set up my gear. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From db at db.net Mon Apr 18 11:38:54 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:38:54 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAC6752.3020308@neurotica.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> <4DAC5D2B.2030006@neurotica.com> <20110418162619.GA46901@night.db.net> <4DAC6752.3020308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110418163854.GA47070@night.db.net> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:31:14PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/18/11 12:26 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: ... > So now you agree with me, after saying I was wrong? WTF? I missed removing the disagreement after seeing this. Sheesh! It's e-mail unlax. ;-) The articles I posted are far more useful than trying to discuss it in a short pity e-mail anyway. I think we both agree on that. > >Dave, get your ticket back you lid. ;-) It's very easy now and the > >fun one can do is worth it. > > I'd love to, and I'm planning on it. At the moment, however, I'm > working on a new place to live, where I'll actually have some space to > set up my gear. Oooo that will be fun! - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 12:07:48 2011 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 10:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <364549.15391.qm@web111313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> he will be missed, I always love to put up similar stuff to his with references to?his auctions in my auction text ----- Original Message ---- From: Gene Buckle To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, April 18, 2011 11:49:24 AM Subject: Re: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Richard wrote: > Now apparently he's getting out of the business.? I doubt anyone is > going to pay $200K for his inventory.? I seriously doubt his claim > that his inventory has a value of $700K. > There's a sucker out there just for him I suspect. Now all I have to do is wait for wiredforservice to stop hawking HIS overpriced crap. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 18 12:15:42 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 10:15:42 -0700 Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAC71BE.50204@bitsavers.org> On 4/18/11 8:47 AM, Richard wrote: > Now apparently he's getting out of the business. Good riddance! I'm sick of his monthly flooding of eBay listings. From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 12:17:29 2011 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 10:17:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <961764.56018.qm@web111313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> "nobody programs today, nor ever will program" in assembly again. We do a lot of assembly with the DSP's we work with, embedded is a big market. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 18 12:28:16 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:28:16 +0200 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 Message-ID: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl> I have had a very bad experience with sammyslave1, I bought two items an extended mass storage rom for the HP9845 and a HP-IB interface for my HP 9830A. I always pay instantly with paypal, when I contacted the seller about my items after a week or three I didn't get an answer, I waited another week and another email no answer. After I opened a dispute he answered and promised to ship the items and some extra's for the inconvenience. And yes his wife made a shipping label for USPS, but they never took the package to the post office, eventually I upgraded to a claim and got my money back, but what a waste of time this guy is. It took me 8 weeks to get nothing, so my advice don't buy from sammyslave1 (aka Larry L.) -Rik From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 18 12:34:22 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 13:34:22 -0400 Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 In-Reply-To: <4DAC71BE.50204@bitsavers.org> References: <4DAC71BE.50204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DAC761E.9050100@atarimuseum.com> I whole heartedly agree! Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/18/11 8:47 AM, Richard wrote: > >> Now apparently he's getting out of the business. > > Good riddance! > > I'm sick of his monthly flooding of eBay listings. > > From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Apr 18 12:57:49 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 13:57:49 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 - question about powering reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201104181758.p3IHw4fH026179@billY.EZWIND.NET> > > > Hi > > > > I have been able to get my PDP 11/05 to print "hello world" by > > entering a short program into the toggle switches. I can > > simultaneously get the punch to print if I enable it. The text is > > actually garbled (TE]HJVYRTD), but I assume I just have to make an > >Does the teletype print correctly in local mode? Could it be a problem >with the receive mechanciam in the Model 33? Yes, it prints fine. I have two TTY's, they both do the exact same thing when the PDP sends the text to the printer, that tells me it's a PDP transmit thing. >Can you correctly read charactes from the Model 33 keyboard on the PDP11? I have been trying to write a program that will do this using front panel switches. I could use some help. > I don't have one of these installed, as I have no base: http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/old_rdr_power.shtml I believe that reader mod or no, I need to have power to the reader. >There was an 'official' Teletpye versio nwith automatic reder control. >This detected 2 control chreactters using levers in the 'stunt box' under >the platen. These operated swithc contacts (there may well have been a >latching relay involved too) to control the trip coil circuit. This >version is not at all common (at least not over here). >The first thing I would do is have the machine running in Local mode with >the covers off and a piece of tape in the reader. Press down the armature >flap on top of the trip coil. If the reader now runs (and the tape >cotnents are printed out on the Model 33), then the reader and the >mechancial side of things ae all working properly, and any problems are >in the trip coil circuit (most likely) no power for the reader. >I would invetigate thsi some more. What is the DC resistance between the >2 connections that go to the reader circuit (with those wires >disconnected from the rest of the teletpye)? If inifinite, this does >suggest a relay contact. I will check >Does anyhting happen if you apply 24V (or so) >between the 2 wires coming out of the machien from thsi device? If the >resistance drops to 'very low' then it really does sound like a relay. >Reconnect it, Apply 24V, and see if the reader runs now. The PDP is sending -15V from mate-and-lock connector 4 and 6, for the heck of it I tried this, quickly, but it had no effect. >The DEC connecotr has 6 pins used, 2 each for the transmit currnet loop, >receive current loop and reader run relay. The last will drive a small >relay coil directly. -15V? >Has this Model 33 ever been used on a PDP11? If so, it's likely to be >vertsion of the normal DEC modification and you can just connct up the >relay coil wires to the 2 remaining pins on the mate-n-lock. TTY "lineage unknown" From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Apr 18 13:24:25 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 11:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > From: Rik Bos > Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In defense of Larry, I've done a boatload of business with him over the last 6 years or so, and know him personally. Larry deals with this merchandise for the money, not love of old computers, and can drive a hard bargain, but I've always known him to be a decent fellow. He's been in the minicomputer sales/service/legacy support business for many years, and takes pride in being more than a hi-tech junk dealer, even though there's not much left of the product lines he supports. He has aggressively downsized his business in the last couple of years, and disposed of most of his inventory already. The facilities are not what they used to be, and the business is, AFAIK, a one-man show at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a bit less organized and on top of things as before, but you likely experienced an isolated incident. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to do business with Larry again. -- Bill From drb at msu.edu Mon Apr 18 13:38:50 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 14:38:50 -0400 Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 18 Apr 2011 09:47:14 MDT.) References: Message-ID: <20110418183850.A5212A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Now apparently he's getting out of the business. I doubt anyone is > going to pay $200K for his inventory. I seriously doubt his claim that > his inventory has a value of $700K. One of many sellers seem to fail to grasp the distinction between value and asking price. But "he has customers, you know!" Advice to the buyer -- arrange your own packing and shipping. De From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 18 13:43:24 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:43:24 +0200 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl> <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003401cbfdf8$83593750$8a0ba5f0$@xs4all.nl> >The facilities are > not what they used to be, and the business is, AFAIK, a one-man show at this > point. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a bit less organized and on top of things as > before, but you likely experienced an isolated incident. I certainly wouldn't > hesitate to do business with Larry again. > > -- Bill I'm not the first..look at his feedback.. And I don't like it when people are lying against me, and when they are not answering emails. He told me he shipped the items but only printed the USPS-label, never shipped it. I waited the longest time possible before upgrading to a claim, but if I hadn't done it I never should have seen my money back. No he's not a recommendable seller, at the best a sloppy seller! -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 18 12:58:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 18:58:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Apr 17, 11 12:23:46 pm Message-ID: > You know, a big calculator that used Cherry keyswitches would just kick > ass. If you were to kit one, I'd be first in line. :) Isn;'t that called an HP9830? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 18 13:40:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:40:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAB45E6.7050407@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 17, 11 03:56:22 pm Message-ID: > I always wondered why CW was considered by so many to be such a high > barrier to entry. I got 5WPM code at 100% when I was eleven years old > to get my (pre-no-code) Tech license. If I could do it, anyone could, > but apparently many people thought they couldn't. I still don't get that. Hmm... I think it depends on the person. As you all know, I find SMD soldering ro be easy, I hav no problem doing component-level repair of classic computers even without a service manual, I don't worry about replacing disk drive heads, or turning a new bush for a printer mechanism, or...; Others here have commented that they find such things to be far too difficult for them I have the same problem with morse code. I simply can't do it. I've tried. My brian just doens't work that way. I am sure some people find it easy. Others, like myself, clearly do not. While I will be the first to agree that morse should be allowed on amateur bands, I don't think it should be a requiremnt for getting a license. Why single out that mode? Why not require that all amateurs have to drill their own Nipkov disk and make a mechanical SSTV system? Yes, I am well aware of the _historical_ reason for requiring all amateurs to know morse, but that doesn't apply any more. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 18 12:56:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 18:56:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 92, Issue 25 In-Reply-To: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Apr 17, 11 08:29:32 pm Message-ID: > > > > I think the mole is defined from the number of attons in a certain mass > > of a certain isotope of an certain element (carbon 12 IIRC) > > > The mole is the amount of a substance which contains Avogadro's number=20 > (6.0225 =D7 10^23 ) of atoms or molecules of the substance. Sure. Defining the mole is equivalent to defining Avogadro's number. But that's similar to saying that as the electonic charge is 1.602*10^-19C, a colomob is the charge on 6.24*10^18 electrons. so defining the coulomb is equivalent to definint that number > Stated differently, it is the same amount of grammes of the substance as=20 > that element's molecular weight. > The definition says that it is the amount of a substance which contains=20 > the same number of molecules of the substance as 12 grammes of=20 > carbon-12, which is a way of expressing the number of molecules in such=20 I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12. Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 18 13:59:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:59:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference between In-Reply-To: <4DAB6E02.8060007@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 17, 11 11:47:30 pm Message-ID: > Dare I ask if you're referring to Xilinx's "wonderful" ISE Design System? > > Altera seemingly learned a lesson long ago: sometimes software is just > too old to maintain. Compared to ISE (and even the old Altera MAX+PLUS > development system), Quartus is a dream to use. ISE has more bugs (I've > found several Logic Synthesizer bugs in ISE, none in Quartus), is less > stable (on average several crashes per day; I've never seen Quartus > crash)... And you wonder why I prefer to use a pile of 74xxx parts, a rell of wire and a soldering iron... -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 18 14:15:31 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> You know, a big calculator that used Cherry keyswitches would just kick >> ass. If you were to kit one, I'd be first in line. :) > > Isn;'t that called an HP9830? > Nope. I wasn't implying a full size keyboard, just a keypad that used full size keys. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 18 14:40:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:40:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: ASR 33 - question about powering reader In-Reply-To: <201104181758.p3IHw4fH026179@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "B Degnan" at Apr 18, 11 01:57:49 pm Message-ID: > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > I have been able to get my PDP 11/05 to print "hello world" by > > > entering a short program into the toggle switches. I can > > > simultaneously get the punch to print if I enable it. The text is > > > actually garbled (TE]HJVYRTD), but I assume I just have to make an > > > >Does the teletype print correctly in local mode? Could it be a problem > >with the receive mechanciam in the Model 33? > > Yes, it prints fine. I have two TTY's, they both do the exact same > thing when the PDP sends the text to the printer, that tells me it's > a PDP transmit thing. OK, right.... I seem to rememebr that the older version of 11/05 CPU board used an RC oscilaltor for the UART clock (rahter than a crystal). That may have drifted. You can check th efrequency at the TxClk and RxClk pins of the 40 pin UART chip on one of the CPU boards, it should be 1760Hz (16* the baud rate, I assuem your Mdoel 33 is 110 baud). > > > >Can you correctly read charactes from the Model 33 keyboard on the PDP11? > > I have been trying to write a program that will do this using front > panel switches. I could use some help. I think you can do a simple test without a program. Read the Receive CSR from the front panel (I forget the address, it's 4 less than the transmit CSR, I think), and check the ready bit is clear (if not, read the receive data register). Then pres a key on the teletype and see if the ready bit is set (re-read th CSR, of course). Then read the data register and look at the bit pattern (low byte), it should correspond to the character you typed. > > > > > > I don't have one of these installed, as I have no base: > http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/old_rdr_power.shtml > > I believe that reader mod or no, I need to have power to the reader. Yes, you do.If you don't ahve the reader PSU connectoed, I think the reader trip coil will still work, the transmit clutch will engage and the distributor will spin, but the reader itself will do nothing. I've not looked at your pictures, do you have a free cable coming out of the Model 33 ending i na 15 pin socket to connect to the reader PSU? As I suggsted in my previous message, there are really 2 circuits, for the tip coil and for the reader solenoid, You cna debug them in either orrder, but of course you need to have both working in the end. > >I would invetigate thsi some more. What is the DC resistance between the > >2 connections that go to the reader circuit (with those wires > >disconnected from the rest of the teletpye)? If inifinite, this does > >suggest a relay contact. > > I will check If it _is_ a transfofmer, I am totally puzzled as to what it could be doing there. > > >Does anyhting happen if you apply 24V (or so) > >between the 2 wires coming out of the machien from thsi device? If the > >resistance drops to 'very low' then it really does sound like a relay. > >Reconnect it, Apply 24V, and see if the reader runs now. > > The PDP is sending -15V from mate-and-lock connector 4 and 6, for the > heck of it I tried this, quickly, but it had no effect. I asusme this is the voltage betwene the pins. The voltage from the pisn to eather is irrelevant, of course. It's been a long time since I looekd that the 11/05 printset (I can dig it out if need be), but it's quite possible that one ed of the relay coil goes to -15V nd the other end to +5V 9and thus there's 20V across the xcoil) with a switchign transistor in series with onoe of the wires so the PDP11 can cotnrol the relay. Thinkin about it, the relay may well not actuate until a bit in the receive CSR is set (this the reader is normally stopped, it single-steps when the PDP11 wants ot load something). I think I'd use a bench PSU or a couple of 9V batteries in series for testing. The simpler something is (battert as agianst a PDP11 PSU and control ogic), the fewer unknowns there are :-) > > > >The DEC connecotr has 6 pins used, 2 each for the transmit currnet loop, > >receive current loop and reader run relay. The last will drive a small > >relay coil directly. > > -15V? Well, the polarity clearly depends on which way round you conenc the voltmeer... I think that reader control oop can provide enough current to operate small relauys without damage. The voltage is high enough too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 18 14:43:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:43:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Apr 18, 11 12:15:31 pm Message-ID: > >> You know, a big calculator that used Cherry keyswitches would just kick > >> ass. If you were to kit one, I'd be first in line. :) > > > > Isn;'t that called an HP9830? > > > Nope. I wasn't implying a full size keyboard, just a keypad that used > full size keys. :) HP46, or HP81, then I replaced a keyswithc on one for a fellow HPCC member, and I am pretty sure I sued a Cherry keyswitch of the type I use on my 9830). I susepct a 9805 is similar. -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 18 14:52:14 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:52:14 -0700 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl>, <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Me three: Larry has always been a great guy to deal with. I recall that one time he forgot to ship something, and once I brought it to his attention he apologized profusely and upgraded the shipping at his own expense. Stuff does happen in people's lives, and I would bet that your negative experience was an oversight. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Maddox [wmaddox at pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 11:24 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 > From: Rik Bos > Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In defense of Larry, I've done a boatload of business with him over the last 6 years or so, and know him personally. Larry deals with this merchandise for the money, not love of old computers, and can drive a hard bargain, but I've always known him to be a decent fellow. He's been in the minicomputer sales/service/legacy support business for many years, and takes pride in being more than a hi-tech junk dealer, even though there's not much left of the product lines he supports. He has aggressively downsized his business in the last couple of years, and disposed of most of his inventory already. The facilities are not what they used to be, and the business is, AFAIK, a one-man show at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a bit less organized and on top of things as before, but you likely experienced an isolated incident. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to do business with Larry again. -- Bill From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 18 14:48:06 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 12:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> You know, a big calculator that used Cherry keyswitches would just kick >>>> ass. If you were to kit one, I'd be first in line. :) >>> >>> Isn;'t that called an HP9830? >>> >> Nope. I wasn't implying a full size keyboard, just a keypad that used >> full size keys. :) > > HP46, or HP81, then I replaced a keyswithc on one for a fellow HPCC > member, and I am pretty sure I sued a Cherry keyswitch of the type I use > on my 9830). I susepct a 9805 is similar. > I don't want an adding machine - which essentially what those HP devices are. I was envisioning a hybrid "old style" programmer's calculator that used a huge keypad and a small LCD display of some kind. Think of the HP-16C but with large keys on it. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 18 16:08:07 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 23:08:07 +0200 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: References: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl>, <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003601cbfe0c$ba8ce690$2fa6b3b0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Ian King > Verzonden: maandag 18 april 2011 21:52 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 > > Me three: Larry has always been a great guy to deal with. I recall that one time > he forgot to ship something, and once I brought it to his attention he apologized > profusely and upgraded the shipping at his own expense. > > Stuff does happen in people's lives, and I would bet that your negative > experience was an oversight. -- Ian May be, but at the moment all his neg's are about not shipping items.. Everybody can make mistakes, that's not the problem, but not reacting on emails well that's what pissed me. You know I really liked to have the items, and like I said I was very patient in everything... -Rik > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of William Maddox [wmaddox at pacbell.net] > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 11:24 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 > > > From: Rik Bos > > Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 > > In defense of Larry, I've done a boatload of business with him over the last 6 > years or so, and know him personally. Larry deals with this merchandise for the > money, not love of old computers, and can drive a hard bargain, but I've always > known him to be a decent fellow. He's been in the minicomputer > sales/service/legacy support business for many years, and takes pride in being > more than a hi-tech junk dealer, even though there's not much left of the > product lines he supports. He has aggressively downsized his business in the last > couple of years, and disposed of most of his inventory already. The facilities are > not what they used to be, and the business is, AFAIK, a one-man show at this > point. I wouldn't be surprised if he's a bit less organized and on top of things as > before, but you likely experienced an isolated incident. I certainly wouldn't > hesitate to do business with Larry again. > > -- Bill > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 16:11:27 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:11:27 -0400 Subject: Where does one find small 4:3 LCD screens with composite or S-video input? Message-ID: Hi, All, It's trivial right now to find inexpensive 16:9 LCD TVs in various sizes, and I'm seeing a lot of older, smaller 4:3 VGA LCD screens in thrift stores and what not, but what I'm not finding abundantly are (presumably used) 4:3 LCD screens with 15KHz-friendly inputs (composite, S-video...) I've found a few places (Amazon, uBid...) with old pages now marked "out of stock" for items I'm interested in, but as of yet, I have not found anyo able to take an order. One example part number for a product that I think might fit what I'm looking for is the Sharp LC-12A2U (12" 4:3 LCD TV). It's trivial to buy a remote for it, it's easy to find a manual for it, but nobody sells the TV itself, either as a clearance item or used. Is this a side-effect of the analog->digital TV conversion? Did everyone, all over, crush all their non-widescreen TVs, never to be found again? My interest is in repurposing these devices into traveling displays, with or without an enclosing kiosk, and since I'm planning on generating the content from older (on-topic) devices, I'd prefer 4:3 to 16:9 since that's the display "look" that 1980s micros were designed around. I have a couple of 12" 4:3 monitors already, but they are VGA-only. I was hoping to find an older device with the right inputs vs buying/finding/building a VGA scan converter since I'd been expecting a used TV to be cheaper than a new scan converter, but so far, I'm coming up empty handed. So has anyone spotted older, smaller LCD TVs anywhere on-line or in physical stores? -ethan From feldman.r at comcast.net Mon Apr 18 16:29:35 2011 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 21:29:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <829842622.71395.1303162175115.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 7 >Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:21:15 -0700 (PDT) >From: Chris M >Subject: Re: Assembly is dead, etc. > >--- On Sat, 4/16/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> ? Those applications are widespread; there are >> considerably more embedded computers in the world than >> non-embedded.? > ?>I'd like to hear from 1 person on this list that currently owns an 80186/88 based SBC. > /raises hand/ I have an HP 200LX, which uses a custom 80186 chip and is on a single board. Bob From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 17:02:30 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:02:30 -0500 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4DAB8410.1040606@atarimuseum.com> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4dab6786.29d7e70a.6ab3.ffff9c73@mx.google.com> <4DAB8410.1040606@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4dacb6b7.d014e70a.329c.ffffb2f7@mx.google.com> At 07:21 PM 4/17/2011, you wrote: >Yes, I remember reading about people could >sometimes talk a world away on the 6meter and that is damned cool! :-) > >We're right in the middle of the next big solar >spike so communications will be wonky, temps >with suddenly spike (I'm sure Al Gore will love >that) and we'll probably see some brown outs and >power grid anomolies... oh joy! ;-) CMEs and high solar flux are bad for high frequencies, but us "magic band" fans love it. 380 . [Philosophy] Free man is by necessity insecure; thinking man by necessity uncertain. --Erich Fromm NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Apr 18 17:12:02 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 18:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl> References: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Rik Bos wrote: > I have had a very bad experience with sammyslave1, I bought two items an > extended mass storage rom for the HP9845 and a HP-IB interface for my HP > 9830A. I always pay instantly with paypal, when I contacted the seller about > my items after a week or three I didn't get an answer, I waited another week > and another email no answer. I have been going back and forth with Larry since January 3rd, trying to get my order shipped (not through Ebay, but paid through Paypal). He never answers email, so I end up calling him every couple of weeks. Each time, he tells me my box is ready, and just needs to go to UPS. He tells me he's added a few more thing that I'm looking for, but it never actually ships. During my last call, he told me that he might be able to get an HP 12821A board I wanted from one of his associates. To his credit (Larry), he did call back and told me that his friend had the board, and I actually received it. But from Larry, nothing, for going on 4-1/2 months. This is like trying to order an Altar 8800 from MITS back in the day. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 17:14:31 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 18:14:31 -0400 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. Message-ID: <4C0AD6DC3630472DA5C4BA8734623847@andrewdesktop> Assembly is dead, etc. Chris M chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 16 15:21:15 CDT 2011 * Previous message: Assembly is dead, etc. * Next message: Assembly is dead, etc. * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ --- On Sat, 4/16/11, Dave McGuire > wrote: > Those applications are widespread; there are > considerably more embedded computers in the world than > non-embedded. I'd like to hear from 1 person on this list that currently owns an 80186/88 based SBC. _____ Hi! There is an SBC-188 80C188 based SBC at the N8VEM project. It is a very popular board and there are many builders booting different sorts of 8088 style operating systems like FreeDOS, etc. I have plenty of the SBC-188 PCBs and some of the chips if anyone is interested. The original plan was to pair up the SBC-188 with the uPD7220 GDC board and run OpenGEM on FreeDOS. The good news is the SBC-188 and uPD7220 GDC boards are working. FreeDOS is working but we haven't quite gotten to OpenGEM yet. The SBC-188 with uPD7220 GDC make a sort of an "alternate universe" version of the PC using components of the period in a completely different configuration. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 17:47:09 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:47:09 -0500 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <20110418125608.GA44395@night.db.net> References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> <20110418125608.GA44395@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4dacc017.015de70a.3d3d.ffffaf27@mx.google.com> At 07:56 AM 4/18/2011, you wrote: >On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 03:09:12PM +1000, Ivy Gardiner wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum > > wrote: > > > So could this could be used for Videotex transmissions ? ? How much > > > bandwidth can you squeeze out of the system? > > > > I'm not sure about videotex (I'm not sure even what it is to be honest.) > >Telidon and Prestel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telidon) > >Slow scan tv would be the closest to graphics, at least on HF. >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow-scan_television >You could run up old fashioned analogue fast scan tv on the higher bands. >I don't know of any amateur doing digital tv *yet* but I am sure it has >already happened. > >http://www.darc.de/distrikte/p/07/betriebsarten/ \ >amateurfunkfernsehen/digitales-atv/ > >- 73 Diane VA3DB http://www.hamtv.com/ Excerpt: You don't need a computer or any interface box like SSTV or Digital TV; This is live full motion color video like you are used to with analog cable TV. Dont trash your old analog tuner only TV's - use them to receive ATV directly. Even after the Digital TV change over, new TV's will have analog cable tuners in them for many years to come. Hams should be seen as well as heard. The 70cm 420-450 MHz amateur band (430-450 MHz above the A line) is the lowest frequency Amateur band with enough bandwidth to support a standard 6 MHz AM ATV channel and you only need a code free Technician class license or higher to transmit. Also since the lower the frequency, the farther the distance, given the same power and antenna gain, this is where 98% of ATVers operate. The 902-928 MHz band goes half the distance and so on as you go higher. The 70cm band is also lowest cost, easiest to get on and can best be seen between antennas with line of sight - no obstructions. Line of sight between the two antennas is the only predictable distance given antenna gains and transmitter power - see ATV DX below. Non-line of sight just has to be tried and antennas moved to find the best location. 2-meter simplex voice contact is a good indicatior that a path might be possible. 698 . [Husbands] The husbands of very beautiful women belong to the criminal classes. --Oscar Wilde NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 17:52:57 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 17:52:57 -0500 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <201104162150.p3GLoTjb039193@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DAA3D5E.20209@atarimuseum.com> <4DAA4302.8040101@neurotica.com> <4DAA4F42.4010401@atarimuseum.com> <4DABA6A6.5090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4dacc26f.c9e82a0a.7577.ffffaec7@mx.google.com> At 09:18 AM 4/18/2011, you wrote: > > From: curt at atarimuseum.com >---snip---> >> > > >> I know I need a license, but I'm just starting to dig into things, > > >> obviously want a 2 way system, kinda > hoping I can do an attic based antenna > > >> if at all possible, I remember a bit from > when I was a kid about atmosphere > > >> bouncing and such, but I have a lot of > rust to scrap off my memories... why > > >> do you have some gear you're looking to > part with and any chance you coming > > >> up to VCF East? > > >> > > >> > > >> Curt > >Hi > I thought I'd mention, the recieving antenna > is quite forgiving about wavelengths >but the transmitting antenna needs to be tuned or you'll damage your final. >Making a tuned antenna in the attic can be a little tricky. >Dwight Oh, I don't know about that. I have the MFJ antenna analyst, which is a bit pricey, but a simple SWR meter and some patience can get you close enough. I have to tune anything above 150 MHz the hard way since the analyzer I have doesn't go up very high. You have to measure (twice at least) and cut carefully, leaving things a little bit long, then put it in place where it's going to be for the final tune-up. Stuff around the antenna can affect tuning, for sure, so it's a little harder sometimes than in free air. > 686 . [Disgrace] She is absolutely inadmissible into society. Many a woman has a past, but I am told that she has at least a dozen, and that they all fit. --Oscar Wilde NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From a50mhzham at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 18:07:10 2011 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 18:07:10 -0500 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> Message-ID: <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> At 12:56 PM 4/18/2011, you wrote: > > > > > > > I think the mole is defined from the number of attons in a certain mass > > > of a certain isotope of an certain element (carbon 12 IIRC) > > > > > The mole is the amount of a substance which contains Avogadro's number=20 > > (6.0225 =D7 10^23 ) of atoms or molecules of the substance. > >Sure. Defining the mole is equivalent to defining Avogadro's number. But >that's similar to saying that as the electonic charge is 1.602*10^-19C, a >colomob is the charge on 6.24*10^18 electrons. so defining the coulomb >is equivalent to definint that number > > > Stated differently, it is the same amount of grammes of the substance as=20 > > that element's molecular weight. > > The definition says that it is the amount of a substance which contains=20 > > the same number of molecules of the substance as 12 grammes of=20 > > carbon-12, which is a way of expressing the number of molecules in such=20 > > >I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12. >Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in >other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a >carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using >here. I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once: "For a good time, call Avogadro, 6.02x10^23." I elected not to investigate further. 345 . [Computing] `... if we wish to count lines of code, we should not regard them as "lines produced" but as "lines spent." ' --Edsger Dijkstra NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From redodd at comcast.net Mon Apr 18 18:33:24 2011 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:33:24 -0400 Subject: Where does one find small 4:3 LCD screens with composite or S-video input? (Ethan Dicks) Message-ID: Hello Ethan, Search ebay for Hannspree LCD. They made a bunch of fancy tvs with different shapes like baseballs, Cinderella's carriage, Winnie the Pooh etc. Look for a 9.6 inch one. These are the specs for all of them. These are NTSC. 9.6 LCD Monitor 800 x 600 Resolution Brightness: 350 cd/m? Contrast Ratio: 450:1 Digital Comb Filter 2 Watt + 2 Watt Audio System Connections: 1 S-Video Inputs- 2 Composite Video Inputs- Headphone Jack- 2 Audio Inputs (for Composite/S-Video)- 4-in-1 Connection I took apart a baseball shaped one for a project and the screen has nice brackets around the edges and the video is pretty good. I shopped for a long time until I found one that went for about $30. The prices are usually a litte too high but you may get lucky. They also made some 15 inch models but they didn't have s-video. You can find manuals and info here: http://www.hannspree.com/global/category.aspx?c=288 Ralph From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Apr 18 18:49:25 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 16:49:25 -0700 Subject: Atari 800xl "translator disk"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's been a long time since I've had to use one, but IIRC, you boot off the translator disk, then switch to the disk with the game you want to play. The translator makes the 800xl more 800/400 compatible. On 4/18/11 3:23 AM, "Anne Howard" wrote: > Can you help me. I have just sorted out my loft and found my 800xl console > with loads of games (on diskette) and a rather sad 1050 diskette drive. I > have got dos diskettes and also translators and emulators. Unfortunately > after 25+ years I cannot remember how to load things properly. I have some > notes as to when a program needs translator but not sure the order to load up. > I have multiple games on the diskettes which a friend gave me!!! > > So when exactly do I load the translator diskette ? is it right at start up > and before dos (some diskettes have a subset of dos on in any case) . It is > so long ago. I have searched on the internet and not found much luck. > > thanks in advance. > > > A Howard > From chd at chdickman.com Mon Apr 18 18:57:03 2011 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:57:03 -0400 Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110416165016.GB13686@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4DA98E76.17083.B1B7D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I was thinking about Fred's statement quoting the business about > "nobody programs today, nor ever will program" in assembly again. > > I have been amused lately by an advertisement on a Cincinnati AM radio station (WLW) for COBOL and assembler programmers. Maybe their conservative talk radio demographic matches the average COBOL and assembler programmer. -chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 18 19:08:37 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 01:08:37 +0100 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4DACD285.6050500@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 19/04/2011 00:07, Tom wrote: > At 12:56 PM 4/18/2011, you wrote: >> I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12. >> Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in >> other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a >> carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using >> here. Trying to remember my Chemistry A level from 25 years ago.... I believe that an Atomic Mass Unit (AMU), is defined as 1/12 of the mass of a Carbon 12 neucleus. The reason for choosing C-12 is that it has an equal number of protons and neutrons, so the slight difference in mass is averaged out. In the past Hydrogen was used but since (the most common isotope) of Hydrogen only contains 1 proton, this lead to descrepancies for any nucleus with neutrons in. A Mole is really just an abitary amount of a substance that contains the same number of particals as a mole of any other substance, that is Avigadro's number. This is usefull when working with chemical formulas such as : 2 H2 + O2 ----> 2 H2O You know that s molecules of Hydrogen react with 1 molecule of Oxygen to give 2 molecules of Water. Or to put it another way 2 moles of H2 with 1 mole of O2 produce 2 moles of water. More practically 4 grams of Hydrogen + 32 gamms of Oxygen produce 36 gramms of Water. I think I rememberd it correctly...... Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 18 20:23:04 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:23:04 -0600 Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 In-Reply-To: <364549.15391.qm@web111313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <364549.15391.qm@web111313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <364549.15391.qm at web111313.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, steve writes: > he will be missed, I always love to put up similar stuff to his with referenc es > to his auctions in my auction text You mean the vintagecomputermuseum seller or wiredforservice that Gene mentioned? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 20:24:56 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:24:56 -0500 Subject: Where does one find small 4:3 LCD screens with composite or S-video input? (Ethan Dicks) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Ralph E. Dodd wrote: > Hello Ethan, > > Search ebay for Hannspree LCD. Yes! That's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Thanks for the search keyword. I certainly don't mind doing a little hunting for a bargain on that. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 18 20:25:57 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:25:57 -0600 Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 In-Reply-To: <4DAC71BE.50204@bitsavers.org> References: <4DAC71BE.50204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4DAC71BE.50204 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 4/18/11 8:47 AM, Richard wrote: > > > Now apparently he's getting out of the business. > > Good riddance! > > I'm sick of his monthly flooding of eBay listings. There are a number of sellers that always have high prices and if they have "or best offer", they never accept my offers. I just refine my searches over time to exclude these sellers. It works great. This guy (vintagecomputermuseum) has used several different ids over the past few years, so I had to adjust my searches when he changed ids. Another one I routinely ignore is the seller it_equipment_xpress. There's lots of stuff I'd be interested in buying from the guy (he has a Data General Dasher CRT terminal, it would be a nice companion to my printing terminal) if his prices were reasonable and we could come to an understanding about how to pack and ship terminals. However, for the same money I could buy more relevant items from other ebay sellers or via personal networking. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 18 20:28:02 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:28:02 -0600 Subject: Control Data - TRG Division microwave stuff In-Reply-To: References: <7a5e29eeaa64fddd96d3d8491a3da9b6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > CDC bought TRG, a company that made microwave stuff back in the 60s. CDC > also branched out into medical equipment, industrial controls, art books, > used cars, shotguns, and vodka. Vodka. Wow. I wonder if any bottles survive? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 18 20:36:23 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:36:23 -0600 Subject: Assembly is dead, long live Assembly... In-Reply-To: <613799.1290.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <613799.1290.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <613799.1290.qm at web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > [...] Embedded programmers need to know assembler There are many thousands of amateur embedded programmers out there who have never touched assembly or even read about it. Google "arduino". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 18 20:43:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 21:43:23 -0400 Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 In-Reply-To: References: <4DAC71BE.50204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DACE8BB.5080303@neurotica.com> On 4/18/11 9:25 PM, Richard wrote: > Another one I routinely ignore is the seller it_equipment_xpress. I HATE THOSE GUYS. They find the ability to put all sorts of unrelated pictures in their auctions, including some suitly sports-worship crap, but never any pics of the actual item! And don't even get me started on their prices. Unbelievable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From fjgjr1 at aol.com Mon Apr 18 21:09:59 2011 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 22:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <8CDCC4E05393764-754-4A120@webmail-d093.sysops.aol.com> Oh it is big, very big number - as a retired chemist, nice to see chemistry in action !!! Frank -----Original Message----- From: Tom To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, Apr 18, 2011 7:11 pm Subject: Avogadro's number At 12:56 PM 4/18/2011, you wrote: > > > > I think the mole is defined from the number of attons in a certain mass > > of a certain isotope of an certain element (carbon 12 IIRC) > > > The mole is the amount of a substance which contains Avogadro's number=20 > (6.0225 =D7 10^23 ) of atoms or molecules of the substance. Sure. Defining the mole is equivalent to defining Avogadro's number. But that's similar to saying that as the electonic charge is 1.602*10^-19C, a colomob is the charge on 6.24*10^18 electrons. so defining the coulomb is equivalent to definint that number > Stated differently, it is the same amount of grammes of the substance as=20 > that element's molecular weight. > The definition says that it is the amount of a substance which contains=20 > the same number of molecules of the substance as 12 grammes of=20 > carbon-12, which is a way of expressing the number of molecules in such=20 I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12. Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using here. I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once: For a good time, call Avogadro, 6.02x10^23." I elected not to investigate further. 45 . [Computing] `... if we wish to count lines f code, we should not regard them as "lines roduced" but as "lines spent." ' --Edsger Dijkstra EW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 3? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc AN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician Registered Linux User 385531 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 18 21:15:58 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:15:58 -0600 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: References: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl>, <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > Me three: Larry has always been a great guy to deal with. I guess I'll have to say me four. I have never dealt with the guy in person (I didn't even recall his name), but I recall his ebay id and recall having good purchasing and shipping experiences with him in the past. I haven't bought anything from him in a while; my last purchase was a VT-100 keyboard in Jan. 2008. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Mon Apr 18 21:29:12 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 22:29:12 -0400 Subject: FWD: D.C.-area rideshare needed to VCF Message-ID: <4DACF378.1020300@snarc.net> Carlson Stevens wrote on the VCF Facebook wall: >>> I am in search of transportation to VCF east. If anyone from the Washington DC area (or passing through the area) is attending VCF east 7.0 Saturday only and has an extra seat available, please message me. I am willing to pay all the tolls and chip in for gas. His email is carlson.stevens at gmail.com. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 18 21:52:18 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 19:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5.25" floppy drive cleaners Message-ID: Does anyone know who has a good supply of 5.25" floppy drive cleaning disks for sale? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Mon Apr 18 23:46:11 2011 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 00:46:11 -0400 Subject: ebay: it can be yours for *only* $200,000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At his prices, my NeXT collection would be worth at least $300,000 :) On Apr 18, 2011, at 11:47 AM, Richard wrote: > ebay item # 190523729625 From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Mon Apr 18 23:47:50 2011 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 00:47:50 -0400 Subject: Custom cables... In-Reply-To: <4DAC4BD8.7090309@compsys.to> References: <4DAA4D71.9080609@mail.msu.edu> <4DAC4BD8.7090309@compsys.to> Message-ID: Does anyone have recommendations for having cables made? I'd like to have some NeXT mono->vga adapters made. The wiring is trivial, but it'd be nice to have a proper finish on the parts. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 18 23:52:27 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 21:52:27 -0700 Subject: Custom cables... In-Reply-To: References: <4DAA4D71.9080609@mail.msu.edu> <4DAC4BD8.7090309@compsys.to>, Message-ID: I've had good luck with a place here in Seattle called DataPro: www.datapro.net -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gavin Thomas Nicol [gtn at mind-to-mind.com] Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 9:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Cc: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Custom cables... Does anyone have recommendations for having cables made? I'd like to have some NeXT mono->vga adapters made. The wiring is trivial, but it'd be nice to have a proper finish on the parts. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 19 00:56:46 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 00:56:46 -0500 Subject: Custom cables... In-Reply-To: References: <4DAA4D71.9080609@mail.msu.edu> <4DAC4BD8.7090309@compsys.to>, , , Message-ID: call these guys - they have everything: http://www.pchcables.com/ > From: IanK at vulcan.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 21:52:27 -0700 > Subject: RE: Custom cables... > > I've had good luck with a place here in Seattle called DataPro: www.datapro.net -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gavin Thomas Nicol [gtn at mind-to-mind.com] > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2011 9:47 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Cc: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Custom cables... > > Does anyone have recommendations for having cables made? I'd like to have some NeXT mono->vga adapters made. The wiring is trivial, but it'd be nice to have a proper finish on the parts. From jonas at otter.se Mon Apr 18 15:33:17 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 22:33:17 +0200 Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DACA00D.9040905@otter.se> If so, it's the first one I've heard of in a floppy drive, but anyway... >> > It is indeed a rack-and-pinion positioner. > That is unusual. I think it would be worth trying to restore this drive, > if only to have a working example of such a mechanism > Good point. I don't think they are terribly rare, they probably turn up on eBay every so often, and Atari 1040s aren't rare. OTOH they seem to have used a variety of drives. I shall see what I can do to get it working again. >>> > > You would want som way to eliminate the backlash between the rack and the >>> > > drive gear. One common way to do thsi is to make the gear in 2 'slices'. >>> > > One is fixed to the spidnle, the other is free to move by a small angle, >>> > > but there;s a bias spring forcing it in a particualr direciton relative >>> > > to the spindle. The idea is that said spring is pre-tensioned when the >>> > > mechnaism is assembled so that the teeth of the 2 gears are forces to >>> > > commpletel fill the gaps between the teeth on the rack. >> > I know what you mean. There is nothing like that here, everything is >> > probably too small. The pinion is about 2 mm diameter and the teeth on >> > the rack are something like 3 per mm... > 3 teeth per mm? That's a very fine pitch. > > Thinking about it, 3.5" 80 cylinder drives have 135 tpi. So the track > spacing is 1/135" or 0.19mm. The backlashj in the mechansim must be a lot > less than that, I guess with a 0.3mm pitch rack you can get that. > 3 per mm was a guess, but I can't see the teeth on the rack with my naked eye (i.e. wearing reading glasses only). I need a magnitying glass to see that there are teeth at all. >>> > > What I would do next is with the drive removed, try carefully moving the >>> > > head back and forth and/or rotatign the stepper motor spindle and see >>> > > what moves. If something is stripped then moving the head will not >>> > > rotrate the motore and vice versa. Of course you may find that something >>> > > is jammed solid, in which cae that could be the problem. >> > I removed the motor, it turns out the rack and the pinion is in good > As soon as you remvoed tht motor, you lost the head alighment... Any alignment must be totally lost by now. But if I do get it working I can format a disk on it and see if that works. Reading and writing files might be more of a problem, I can't remember if there is any way to create directories and files in the bare OS, or if one needs programs from another disk, in which case I would be out of luck if it is so badly misaligned that it can't read other disks. >> > shape. What I was seeing was just a deposit of grease and/or gunk. The >> > head assembly was locked solid. It runs on a steel rod approx. 2 mm >> > diameter which goes through what looks like bushes, and it was >> > completely jammed from lack of lubrication, dirt etc. The bad news is >> > that now everything is out of alignment since the head assembly came >> > loose when I was trying to move it (it was locked really, really solid), > Provide the head is not damaged, I'd try cleaning it up, making it work > freely again, and then see if you can get the drive working. Even with > the radial alignment way off, the drive should be able to read its own > disks (ones formated in that drive). > > As for doing the full alignment, there are various ways of getting it > somehat near using a disk formatted on a known-good drive, but it's a lot > easier with an alignment disk and 'scope. > If I get that far I shall have to try something. I have a 'scope but no alignment disk. >> > and I don't have an alignment disk. Still, it was a learning experience... >> > I have ordered a new drive from a local shop, they don't keep them in >> > stock. They are only 6 Euros so replacing it will be a lot less trouble > Hmmm. I wonder if those cheap drives are ever aligned at the factory... > I've seen new drives over here that are certainly marginal when checked > against a good alignment disk. > I shall soon find out :-) >> > than making it work again. I would have liked to fix it, but that is >> > simply not practical, sadly. > I'm not convinced it's impossible. > I didn't say "impossible" :-) I meant practical given my resources. But then I may be underestimating myself. And I would of course have to be committed to taking the time to make it work. OTOH, why not? >> > Interestingly, Atari drives are sold for about $50 on eBay, with >> > shipping to Sweden another $50. I suppose they are "collectable". That >> > works out at about 10x the price of a new one. The difference is that >> > the original drive is 720K and has a special bezel and eject knob, a new >> > one is 1.44M and the bezel and knob can be transferred from the old one. >> > The machine itself works with a 1.44M drive. > Hmmm... I guess I am more of a purist, but I really don't like replacing > modules (such as drives) in classic computers with random modern units. > To me, the design of the drive is part of the design of the machine, and > it should be preserved if at all possible. > Indeed. It would also guarantee compatibility with all the old game disks I got with the machine :-) It is an interesting machine, I bought one ages ago instead of a PC. It was faster than the equivalent "turbo" PC, cheaper, the display was higher resolution and it also had very good built-in MIDI support. I used mine a lot, not only for playing games, but I also translated several books using it as a word processor, and ran accounting software on it. I think I even designed a PCB on it. There was a lot of good and really useful software for it, word processors, early desktop publishing software that was better than the PC software, CAD programs, and of course *lots* of music software. Musicians used it a lot, and I knew a chap who used his to drive a very big Roland plotter type machine that had knives instead of pens, to make signs by cutting sheets of plastic film. And GEM was way ahead of DOS and Windows at that time. I could kick myself for getting rid of my first one... Well, at least I have one again :-) /Jonas From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Mon Apr 18 19:44:37 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 20:44:37 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... Message-ID: <4DACA2B5020000E40001DA97@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Well, a few more bizarre things to report: I tried to disable interrupt sources as suggested. The only one, apparently, was the DL11-W SLU/LTC card which was set for both functions. The card was reconfigured to be "SLU Only". No change in behaviour. The DL11-W console is set for address 177560, vector 60. Next, there are three memory cards: one M7847-DJ (16K*18 MOS, MS11-JP), one "Motorola memory systems" card with 48K words, and one "MOSTEK memory systems" card with 96K words. Both the two later cards use 4116 DRAM chips. Tried to use the M7847-DJ card alone (after all, RT-11SJ should run on 16KW of memory). Reconfigured the card address to start at 0 and verified that it occupies addresses 000000 to 077777 via the front panel. When the machine it turned on, the display reads "054207" (this was not expected). Tried booting using the bootstrap on the M9301-YB card: the heads don't engage at all and the program halts rapidly displaying "173764" ... BIZARRE since that is a non-existent address. Next, tried the Motorola memory card which was already configured to start at 0. When the CPU is powered-on, displays "000002" on the display. Tried to boot the disk, heads engage, a few steps of the disk heads, and halts again at "005134". Finally, tried the MOSTEK memory card. Reconfigured to start at 0, and verified that addresses 000000 through 377777 are occupied by RAM. Powers up with a display of 000002 and halts at 005134 when a boot is attempted. The system is now stripped during testing, consisting of the following: Slot 1/2 = CPU, Slot 3=M7859 Panel interface and M9301-YB bootstrap/terminator, Slot 4=memory, slot 5&6&7 empty (with a grant continuity card in D), slot 8=M7856 SLU/LTC, slot 9=M9302 at the unibus end and M7846 RX-01 interface. Originally, had three memory cards in slots 4&5&6. Now I'm just puzzled. Question: Should the unit power-up with "000002"? As I was typing this, had a thought about slots: I recall reading something about not putting memory into slot 9. So, I moved the RX-01 controller to slot 6 (and moved the grant card in slot 9D). Now, when powered-up with the Motorola or Mostek memory cards, displays "000000" but otherwise no changes in booting behaviour. When the MS11-JP RAM was installed instead, displays "177777" once, "163776" the next time (when powered up), and still absolutely nothing when boot is attempted (i.e. no heads engaging at all). Is there something about RT-11 5.04 that I am not aware-of? An it was suggested that there is a difference between the Unibus and Q-Bus boot ... any thoughts on that one? I can't see memory being the issue anyway: sure, 16KW might be an issue (and that card might even be 'flaky'), but the other two cards are large enough. I suppose I could try an older copy of RT-11 however 5.04 is the only one I currently have which also has DX.SYS and DU.SYS drivers (allowing me to make a bootable copy on my LSI-11 system which has an MSCP drive ... I believe previous versions of RT-11 lacked MSCP "DU" device support?). Cheers! Mark >> >> Thanks for the suggestions so far. I tried a few things with the = >> following to report: >> >> I verified the copy of RT-11 on RX-01 floppy. It boots fine on the LSI-11 = >> system it was built on, tried "BOOT RT11SJ" as well as with the "/FOREIGN" = >> option and it ran fine on that system (which has an M7946 controller). = >> The drive is configured for RX-01 mode only (since these are the only = >> controllers I have in both Q-Bus and Unibus flavour). >> >> Now, put that same drive on the 11/34 CPU with an M7846 card. Checked the = >> CPU carefully: NPG jumpers are all intact on the backplane (CA1-CA2) and = >> all unused slot D's have a grant continuity card. Just to ensure it works = >> I reconfigured the console for 9600 baud (originally 300) and ran a simple = >> "echo" program loaded at 001000 which runs fine (so it can store programs = >> in memory and the execute them). The system has loads of memory - three = >> cards with 16K, 48KW, and 96kW on them - so I did a quick check at = >> locations 100000 and 700000 and memory is certainly there. >Some random thoughts >What devices do you have in the 11/34 system? An RX11, obviously. A >DL11-something (but what?) for the console port. Anything else? >Obviously the console and the RX11 must be at the right I/O addresses for >the system to get as far as it has. What about the interrupt vector >settings? Are those correct. Could it be falling over when it enables >interrupts on some device, the interurpt comes along and the vector is >not what's expected so it goes to thw wrong routine. >You have an M9301 at the CPU end of the bus. What, if any, terminator do >you have at the other end? Unibus (unlike Q-bus, normally) is terminated >at both ends. >Could it be a bad memory location? RT11SJ doesn't need much RAM to boot, >so perhaps you could try yor memory boards one at a time, each one set to >start at location 0, and see if that helps. >-tony Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 19 00:24:25 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 22:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembly is dead, long live Assembly... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <796369.77951.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> that's a relatively new hobbyist phenomenon. When most of us hear "embedded" we think micro-controller. Sure a lot of that is done w/C these days, but I doubt you get too deep into the embedded/micro-controller world (as a programmer, read professional) w/o needing to learn assembler. But what's considered a uC these days can probably host a lot more ram/flash mem then in olden times, so maybe I could stand to be corrected (somewhat). --- On Mon, 4/18/11, Richard wrote: > > [...] Embedded programmers need to know assembler > > There are many thousands of amateur embedded programmers > out there who > have never touched assembly or even read about it.? > Google "arduino". From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Apr 19 01:05:04 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:05:04 +0100 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <4DAB45E6.7050407@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 17, 11 03:56:22 pm Message-ID: <3D2C8796B61E4AB1861641B38023871F@RODSDEVSYSTEM> I use Morse on a daily basis and am completely self taught (over 50years ago). I don't think it?s an "I can/can't do it situation." Learning it is another matter. If you can't pick it up yourself then find somebody qualified to teach you. After all, the military and commercial shipping used to train thousands of 20wpm morse operators. Provided you are not visually and or aurally impaired (I am partially both and still have no problems) then CW is for you. Why use CW? That?s the easy one. It will always get through where voice will not. ? Rod Smallwood G8DGR ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 18 April 2011 19:40 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... > I always wondered why CW was considered by so many to be such a high > barrier to entry. I got 5WPM code at 100% when I was eleven years old > to get my (pre-no-code) Tech license. If I could do it, anyone could, > but apparently many people thought they couldn't. I still don't get that. Hmm... I think it depends on the person. As you all know, I find SMD soldering ro be easy, I hav no problem doing component-level repair of classic computers even without a service manual, I don't worry about replacing disk drive heads, or turning a new bush for a printer mechanism, or...; Others here have commented that they find such things to be far too difficult for them I have the same problem with morse code. I simply can't do it. I've tried. My brian just doens't work that way. I am sure some people find it easy. Others, like myself, clearly do not. While I will be the first to agree that morse should be allowed on amateur bands, I don't think it should be a requiremnt for getting a license. Why single out that mode? Why not require that all amateurs have to drill their own Nipkov disk and make a mechanical SSTV system? Yes, I am well aware of the _historical_ reason for requiring all amateurs to know morse, but that doesn't apply any more. -tony From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 01:27:12 2011 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 02:27:12 -0400 Subject: amusing letter found in a C64 box Message-ID: Hello I recently picked up a boxed C64 off the curb and found a letter inside from the owner of the machine to a repair center requesting service. I found it somewhat amusing and thought others might as well. http://img842.imageshack.us/i/img035c.jpg/ -Joe From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 19 03:35:38 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:35:38 +0200 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: References: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl>, <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901cbfe6c$c621d460$52657d20$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Richard > Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2011 4:16 > Aan: cctalk > Onderwerp: Re: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 > > > In article , > Ian King writes: > > > Me three: Larry has always been a great guy to deal with. > > I guess I'll have to say me four. > > I have never dealt with the guy in person (I didn't even recall his name), but I > recall his ebay id and recall having good purchasing and shipping experiences > with him in the past. I haven't bought anything from him in a while; my last > purchase was a VT-100 keyboard in Jan. > 2008. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Well the discussion here set something in motion, it seems Larry posted my items just after my initial posting : Your item was processed through and left our SAN JOSE, CA 95101 facility on April 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm. The item is currently in transit to the destination. Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. Please check again later. If the items arrive in good order I'll of cause will send him the by paypal refunded money. I'll keep you people posted. -Rik From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 19 01:40:20 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 23:40:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: amusing letter found in a C64 box In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <176287.35520.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 4/19/11, Joe Giliberti wrote: > I recently picked up a boxed C64 off the curb and found a > letter inside from > the owner of the machine to a repair center requesting > service. I found it > somewhat amusing and thought others might as well. > > http://img842.imageshack.us/i/img035c.jpg/ My first Commie was given to me from a friend who got bored w/it (after not very long. He couldn't have done much w/it either, never bought a disk drive, not even sure if he had a tape recorder for it). I bought a 1541c, played games for not too long, it crapped the bed. I actually brought it to a guy w/a diagnostic tool, cost about 15$ maybe. Was told it may this or that or the other thing. Not sure what I did, except go out and bought a 64c for 100$. Nuff said. Curious what the gentleman in the letter payed for it. Remember originally they were 599$. Ouch. There was one that was used for some sort of store function in an electronic store in a mall, that basically ran very well and for a long time. But generally they weren't very reliable. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 02:10:28 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 03:10:28 -0400 Subject: DEC M8043 (DLVJ1-M) Configuration help? Message-ID: Hello CCTech people, I've recently gotten my hands on a nice little PDP-11/23 system. The main console interface is a DLVJ1-M, that I think may not be in the correct configuration (as I think one of the wire-wrap jumpers may have come off). I can't find any manuals for a DLV11 or DLVJ1, so I'll try to explain the problem. Comparing the DLVJ1 to the DLV11-E maintenance print set on BitSavers (not the same device, but mine appears to be identical to the one in the print set), I've noticed all the jumpers are the same between both except for one block. There's a block of jumpers that looks like: Z? ?Y 0? ?W 1? ?K 2? ?V 3? ?N Which in the maintenance print set has jumpers 0, 1, 2, 3, and N connected to one another. Whereas on my DLVJ1 only 0, 2, 3, and N are connected. Having no manual that explains anything, I have no idea what the current configuration of mine is. So, my question to all of you here on CCTech is: What is the current configuration of my DLVJ1? And more pressing as a question: Does any one have a manual that explains what all the jumper settings are? I ask all of this because, I believe the jumper that connects to pin one of that block, may have come loose and fallen off, which - I'm thinking - would result in the system reaching an advanced state of non-functionality. (Then again, all it does right now, is console ODT; as I've no mass storage, but I do have an RQDX3 and 9058 distributor.) Thanks in advance for any help. -- C. M. Gauger-Cosgrove From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 02:52:29 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 03:52:29 -0400 Subject: DEC M8043 (DLVJ1-M) Configuration help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry for the double post, but just wanted to give an update. Some very nice people on #classiccmp on FreeNode were quite helpful in helping me figure out what those pins on the DLVJ1-M did. The "middle block" as I called it - which is actually the speed setup - is currently configured for 9600 bps on channels 0, 2 and 3. And channel 1 is disconnected (which I will have to fix; though for now, the '11 should be able to do console ODT fine; even though there's only so much you can do with that, haha). Cheers everyone. -- C. M. Gauger-Cosgrove On 19 April 2011 03:10, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Hello CCTech people, > > I've recently gotten my hands on a nice little PDP-11/23 system. The > main console interface is a DLVJ1-M, that I think may not be in the > correct configuration (as I think one of the wire-wrap jumpers may > have come off). I can't find any manuals for a DLV11 or DLVJ1, so I'll > try to explain the problem. > > Comparing the DLVJ1 to the DLV11-E maintenance print set on BitSavers > (not the same device, but mine appears to be identical to the one in > the print set), I've noticed all the jumpers are the same between both > except for one block. There's a block of jumpers that looks like: > Z? ?Y > 0? ?W > 1? ?K > 2? ?V > 3? ?N > Which in the maintenance print set has jumpers 0, 1, 2, 3, and N > connected to one another. Whereas on my DLVJ1 only 0, 2, 3, and N are > connected. > > Having no manual that explains anything, I have no idea what the > current configuration of mine is. So, my question to all of you here > on CCTech is: What is the current configuration of my DLVJ1? > > And more pressing as a question: Does any one have a manual that > explains what all the jumper settings are? > > > I ask all of this because, I believe the jumper that connects to pin > one of that block, may have come loose and fallen off, which - I'm > thinking - would result in the system reaching an advanced state of > non-functionality. (Then again, all it does right now, is console ODT; > as I've no mass storage, but I do have an RQDX3 and 9058 distributor.) > > > Thanks in advance for any help. > > -- C. M. Gauger-Cosgrove > From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 19 04:33:46 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 02:33:46 -0700 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/18/11 7:15 PM, "Richard" wrote: > > In article , > Ian King writes: > >> Me three: Larry has always been a great guy to deal with. > > I guess I'll have to say me four. > > I have never dealt with the guy in person (I didn't even recall his > name), but I recall his ebay id and recall having good purchasing and > shipping experiences with him in the past. I haven't bought anything > from him in a while; my last purchase was a VT-100 keyboard in Jan. > 2008. Having never purchased from him, but having had a similar experience (several) from other sellers.... It is entirely possible that something has changed lately with him or his "shop" that has left him overwhelmed. If recent feedback shows that this is an increasing trend, then I for one am glad that the OP posted, for it is good information to have if I were in the market for anything he were selling. From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Apr 19 06:08:19 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC M8043 (DLVJ1-M) Configuration help? Message-ID: <8CDCC993945661A-1444-4DA3A@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> You can find alot of documentation on the bitsavers website, though some of what you need is hidden away inside other documents. The configuration settings you need can be found here - http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-192AA-MG-001_Microsystems_Options_Oct88.pdf It's been years since I've messed with a DLV11-J, but if you have any issues, let me know, and I'll see if I can walk you through it. T From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Tue Apr 19 07:16:18 2011 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:16:18 -0400 Subject: Where does one find small 4:3 LCD screens with composite or S-video input? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <582b87$7mlmgt@fipsb03.cogeco.net> At 05:11 PM 18/04/2011, you wrote: >Hi, All, > >It's trivial right now to find inexpensive 16:9 LCD TVs in various >sizes, and I'm seeing a lot of older, smaller 4:3 VGA LCD screens in >thrift stores and what not, but what I'm not finding abundantly are >(presumably used) 4:3 LCD screens with 15KHz-friendly inputs >(composite, S-video...) I've found a few places (Amazon, uBid...) >with old pages now marked "out of stock" for items I'm interested in, >but as of yet, I have not found anyo able to take an order. > >One example part number for a product that I think might fit what I'm >looking for is the Sharp LC-12A2U (12" 4:3 LCD TV). It's trivial to >buy a remote for it, it's easy to find a manual for it, but nobody >sells the TV itself, either as a clearance item or used. > >Is this a side-effect of the analog->digital TV conversion? Did >everyone, all over, crush all their non-widescreen TVs, never to be >found again? > >My interest is in repurposing these devices into traveling displays, >with or without an enclosing kiosk, and since I'm planning on >generating the content from older (on-topic) devices, I'd prefer 4:3 >to 16:9 since that's the display "look" that 1980s micros were >designed around. > >I have a couple of 12" 4:3 monitors already, but they are VGA-only. I >was hoping to find an older device with the right inputs vs >buying/finding/building a VGA scan converter since I'd been expecting >a used TV to be cheaper than a new scan converter, but so far, I'm >coming up empty handed. > >So has anyone spotted older, smaller LCD TVs anywhere on-line or in >physical stores? > >-ethan You might try Tiger Direct, I bought a couple of G2G 5 inch video monitors, with composit input, dc inverters and powr adapters from them a while back. ($60.00 ea. in Canada.) Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Apr 19 07:32:00 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:32:00 -0400 Subject: Where does one find small 4:3 LCD screens with composite or S-video input? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Is this a side-effect of the analog->digital TV conversion? Did > everyone, all over, crush all their non-widescreen TVs, never to be > found again? Non-widescreen name-brand (**) computer monitors (at my day job we had literally acres of 1280x1024 screens) and TV's pretty much (*) disappeared 2 or 3 years ago. (*) The exceptions I know of, are probably new old stock, and I do see them showing up in security systems and point-of-sale terminals. (**) I know Viewsonic stopped making them a couple years back because the Viewsonic reps warned us of that like 4 years ago. But if I go to Amazon I see a companies called "V7" and "Planar" selling what I think may be new 17" 1280x1024 LCD monitors. Tim. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Apr 19 08:00:45 2011 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:00:45 -0400 Subject: amusing letter found in a C64 box In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 19, 2011, at 2:27 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Hello > > I recently picked up a boxed C64 off the curb and found a letter inside from > the owner of the machine to a repair center requesting service. I found it > somewhat amusing and thought others might as well. > > http://img842.imageshack.us/i/img035c.jpg/ > > > -Joe > George sure is demanding. Darn programs he writes burns the computer right out. Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 08:11:39 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:11:39 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> Tom wrote: > I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once: "For a good time, call > Avogadro, 6.02x10^23." And, as we know, one Avogadro makes one Mole sauce. Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 19 08:59:17 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 06:59:17 -0700 Subject: 5.25" floppy drive cleaners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAD9535.1060309@bitsavers.org> On 4/18/11 7:52 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone know who has a good supply of 5.25" floppy drive cleaning disks for sale? > If you are reading floppies, you're better off taking the drive out of the box and using a cotton swab and isopropyl alcohol to clean the heads. Using a drive with easy access to the head actuator (TEAC FD-55 series) is also a good idea. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 19 09:01:18 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:01:18 -0700 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> On 4/19/11 6:11 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Tom wrote: >> I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once: "For a good time, call >> Avogadro, 6.02x10^23." > > And, as we know, one Avogadro makes one Mole sauce. > Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole bunch' as in "I just got a mole of floppy cables" Since most people have no idea how many a mole is. From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Apr 19 09:08:53 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 16:08:53 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: <829842622.71395.1303162175115.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <829842622.71395.1303162175115.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <20110419140852.GB3643@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 09:29:35PM +0000, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > > > >Message: 7 > >Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 13:21:15 -0700 (PDT) > >From: Chris M > >Subject: Re: Assembly is dead, etc. > > > > >--- On Sat, 4/16/11, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > >> ? Those applications are widespread; there are > >> considerably more embedded computers in the world than > >> non-embedded.? > > > ?>I'd like to hear from 1 person on this list that currently owns an 80186/88 based SBC. > > > > > > /raises hand/ > > > > I have an HP 200LX, which uses a custom 80186 chip and is on a single board. Totally forgot about that one. But yeah, I also have a HP 200LX and used it quite a lot for several years. I still have it, it just fell into disuse in favour of other toys ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 09:17:03 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:17:03 +0100 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DAD995F.7090005@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 19/04/2011 15:01, Al Kossow wrote: > Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole bunch' as in > > "I just got a mole of floppy cables" > > Since most people have no idea how many a mole is. That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder how long a mole of floppy cables would be if laid end to end...... Cheers. Phill. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Apr 19 09:23:51 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:23:51 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DAD995F.7090005@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> <4DAD995F.7090005@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <201104191023.51519.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 19 April 2011, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 19/04/2011 15:01, Al Kossow wrote: > > Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole bunch' as in > > > > "I just got a mole of floppy cables" > > > > Since most people have no idea how many a mole is. > > That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder how long a mole of > floppy cables would be if laid end to end...... Assuming they're each 1ft long, that's over 19e6 light years according to google. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From feedle at feedle.net Tue Apr 19 09:41:12 2011 From: feedle at feedle.net (C Sullivan / A Baumann) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 07:41:12 -0700 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <3D2C8796B61E4AB1861641B38023871F@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <4DAB45E6.7050407@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 17, 11 03:56:22 pm <3D2C8796B61E4AB1861641B38023871F@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <4A22A75B-13DF-4C74-9AAB-9E59B160B742@feedle.net> On Apr 18, 2011, at 11:05 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I use Morse on a daily basis and am completely self taught (over 50years > ago). I don't think it?s an "I can/can't do it situation." Learning it is > another matter. If you can't pick it up yourself then find somebody > qualified to teach you. That's not universally true. I struggled with Morse code, and never got much better than a sloppy 5 WPM. And, it's not a matter of "somebody to teach": one of my elmers was Gordon West WB6NOA himself (I'm originally from Southern California, and was a member of a radio club that had Gordon as a member for a while). We had this exact same argument with SMD soldering a few months back. Some people just can't do it for whatever reason, and it's not always because they lack desire or a teacher. Some skills are just simply out of some people's reach. And that's OK: I'm sure some of the skills I have are out of other's reach. It's part of being human. We all have different abilities and maximum levels of achievement. The irony: I can hear and decode touch tones at the maximum key pulse speed with the same accuracy as most telephone switches. I can also "play by ear" after only hearing a musical piece one or two times. I would never tell somebody else that struggled with either musical skill that "if I can do it, anybody can." It's insulting not only to them, but to myself and my musical "talent." From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Apr 19 10:00:27 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:00:27 -0400 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DADA38B.9070103@verizon.net> On 4/19/2011 5:33 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Having never purchased from him, but having had a similar experience > (several) from other sellers.... It is entirely possible that something has > changed lately with him or his "shop" that has left him overwhelmed. If > recent feedback shows that this is an increasing trend, then I for one am > glad that the OP posted, for it is good information to have if I were in the > market for anything he were selling. Exactly. I checked his ebay feedback, and most of his problems appear to be relatively recent. The real problem here is lack of communication by the seller. Everyone understands that sometimes things are slower, that maybe you only make it to the post office once a week or something. But that's not the main problem. Especially once the seller has my money, he should be communicating regularly with me. And certainly responding to my inquiries. He should be getting back to me with a couple days, and SURELY within the week. When I've sold stuff on ebay, I've been particularly conscientious about replying to email, so that I avoid even the appearance of impropriety. Whether the seller is a good guy or not, or whether he's been reliable in the past or not, matters not to the person who is getting screwed over right now. Like they say about stocks, past performance is not a guarantee of future results. If the seller stops communicating, and doesn't deliver a package then he's not living up to his side of the agreement, and I'd encourage everyone to let us know about their behavior. Keith From db at db.net Tue Apr 19 10:20:24 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:20:24 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4A22A75B-13DF-4C74-9AAB-9E59B160B742@feedle.net> References: <4DAB45E6.7050407@neurotica.com> <3D2C8796B61E4AB1861641B38023871F@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4A22A75B-13DF-4C74-9AAB-9E59B160B742@feedle.net> Message-ID: <20110419152024.GA63566@night.db.net> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 07:41:12AM -0700, C Sullivan / A Baumann wrote: > > On Apr 18, 2011, at 11:05 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > I use Morse on a daily basis and am completely self taught (over 50years > > ago). I don't think it?s an "I can/can't do it situation." Learning it is > > another matter. If you can't pick it up yourself then find somebody > > qualified to teach you. > > That's not universally true. I struggled with Morse code, and never got much better than a sloppy 5 WPM. And, it's not a matter of "somebody to teach": one of my elmers was Gordon West WB6NOA himself (I'm originally from Southern California, and was a member of a radio club that had Gordon as a member for a while). > I have used morse for years, I love it but it's not for everyone. PSK31, Olivia, wspr, jt65 are all going to be better than the human ear. The old "Morse gets through when voice won't" argument is specious. > We had this exact same argument with SMD soldering a few months back. Some people just can't do it for whatever reason, and it's not always because they lack desire or a teacher. Some skills are just simply out of some people's reach. And that's OK: I'm sure some of the skills I have are out of other's reach. It's part of being human. We all have different abilities and maximum levels of achievement. I for one was happy enough to see the morse requirement dropped with the Canadian hamradio test. I figure if you know what DSP thats sufficient in this day and age instead of knowing morse. However, I also like the minimalism of morse. 1 active part will get you a transmitter that can make contacts over in Europe, 3 will get you an entire transceiver. Thats still very neat in my books. The younger ham must be finding it fun too, since they are learning it for fun. And that's the key word that should be in the hobby. 'fun' - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 19 10:26:45 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:26:45 -0400 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <4A22A75B-13DF-4C74-9AAB-9E59B160B742@feedle.net> References: <4DAB45E6.7050407@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 17, 11 03:56:22 pm <3D2C8796B61E4AB1861641B38023871F@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4A22A75B-13DF-4C74-9AAB-9E59B160B742@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4DADA9B5.70504@atarimuseum.com> Young or old, I've seen some guys who just can't hold a soldering iron with shaking like a leaf! But then, you could always get a hot air rework station for around $100 with a fine tip, dab a dot a solder on one side of a pad, hold the part in place and hold the hot air tip over it to set it, then go to the other pin(s) and with some solder, run the hot air tip near it and be done.... If you're really not up for that, you can get small desktop reflows for $395 and just order a solder paste mask and a squeeqee and just apply some solder paste, plop down the parts and slide the board into your high tech easy-bake oven ;-) C Sullivan / A Baumann wrote: > On Apr 18, 2011, at 11:05 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > >> I use Morse on a daily basis and am completely self taught (over 50years >> ago). I don't think it?s an "I can/can't do it situation." Learning it is >> another matter. If you can't pick it up yourself then find somebody >> qualified to teach you. >> > > That's not universally true. I struggled with Morse code, and never got much better than a sloppy 5 WPM. And, it's not a matter of "somebody to teach": one of my elmers was Gordon West WB6NOA himself (I'm originally from Southern California, and was a member of a radio club that had Gordon as a member for a while). > > We had this exact same argument with SMD soldering a few months back. Some people just can't do it for whatever reason, and it's not always because they lack desire or a teacher. Some skills are just simply out of some people's reach. And that's OK: I'm sure some of the skills I have are out of other's reach. It's part of being human. We all have different abilities and maximum levels of achievement. > > > The irony: I can hear and decode touch tones at the maximum key pulse speed with the same accuracy as most telephone switches. I can also "play by ear" after only hearing a musical piece one or two times. I would never tell somebody else that struggled with either musical skill that "if I can do it, anybody can." It's insulting not only to them, but to myself and my musical "talent." > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 19 10:38:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:38:59 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com> On 4/19/11 9:11 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once: "For a good time, call >> Avogadro, 6.02x10^23." > > And, as we know, one Avogadro makes one Mole sauce. ROFL!! Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 19 10:54:49 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:54:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 19, 11 11:38:59 am" Message-ID: <201104191554.p3JFsnOE013918@floodgap.com> > Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out > a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this > way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again. The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- lp0 reported invalid error status (on fire, eh?) -- Linux 1.1.62 ----------- From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 11:17:52 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:17:52 +0100 Subject: Modern source projects (was Re: difference In-Reply-To: <56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> References: <17e6dd86a5241dc56ee143686d01e930@cs.ubc.ca> <4DAA1BD2.8040605@neurotica.com> <4DA9C95F.20386.197D882@cclist.sydex.com> <4DAA2F7E.8030706@neurotica.com> <4DAB0901.7060604@neurotica.com> <4DAB0E40.9070001@neurotica.com> <56F5A954B8A6435EB82219611C436A4F@portajara> Message-ID: On 17 April 2011 18:46, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> ?Oh yes, I'd say so. ?One such fellow insisted that files on a Netware >> server were stored "pre-encoded into IPX format" on the server's drives, >> which is how it could serve up file data so fast. > > ? Dave, I may be VERY wrong (and most times I am :o)) but I remember a > dedicated novell netware server that stored the files in a different way, to > facilitate access. Now I don't remember if it had something with > interleave/phisical cluster location or something in the way the blocks were > encoded. > > ? I'll try googling that, This is very old info, maybe I'm completely > wrong... > > ? Hum, haven't found much info, beyond the hard disk had a special > formatting for netware access...See here: > > http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7X_cL0uWMLAJ:blog.eukhost.com/webhosting/novell-network-part-1/+dedicated+novell+netware+server+file+encoding&cd=1&hl=pt-BR&ct=clnk&gl=br&client=firefox-a&source=www.google.com.br > > ? Any info on that? Interesting article. It seems to have been (exceptionally-well) machine-translated from Italian, which leads to a few confusing bits, but it's a good essay. One of the confusing aspects is that it suggests a new Netware filesystem was adopted in the interval between Netware 3 and 5. It wasn't. The NW filesystem was the only option on NW2, 3 and 4. 5 introduced new filesystems but still supported the old one - indeed I think you had to boot off the old format, at least at first in 5.0. The NW filesystem was interesting in several ways. One part of this that amuses me is that apparently the entire server filesystem code was one huge chunk of hand-coded x86 assembly. The mounted the disk, read it, wrote it, enforced security, the whole deal. A single module, which by the time of NW4.x was approaching a half megabyte of impenetrable assembler. Novell was terrified of breaking it and couldn't extend it any further, but without doing so, it could not break the restriction of needing a certainl fixed amount of RAM to mount a volume of given size. More disk = more RAM. So it wrote a whole new FS stack, renamed the old one NW Core File Services or something and started deprecating it. Of course the new one didn't offer anything like the performance but by 2000 or so this did not matter so much. The only interesting angles I know about the actual structure of the NW FS are scant. As disk blocks grew bigger - the great curse of FAT16 on disks of >512MB and the cause of the 2GB limit on FAT16 volumes - older FSs grew inefficient. Novell found a way to do block suballocation on NWFS. I don't know how, but if you enabled it, it could allocate parts of a single cluster to different files. A big gain in disk usage efficiency resulted. The more general thing is that NWFS was a flat filesystem. It did not support subdirectories. All files were on a single level. You added "namespaces" to the volume to support clients with hierarchical filing systems - i.e., MS-DOS 2.0 onwards and Macs from some early point after HFS replaced MFS. What this did was use hashing to generate a unique filename from the pathname of the file. I have no idea how it worked internally, but something like: /home/lproven/docs/readme.txt => "h-l-d-readme-text => "8-12-4-readme-txt" This meant that it could accommodate large numbers of identically-named files in different "directories" and that searching and accessing them was very, very quick. Essentially it generated unique keys for each file, so that a database-like search operation found them, rather than recursively opening subdirectories and scanning each one. This only became visible when more advanced namespaces became common - e.g. the Mac one to support Apple filename semantics, and more amusingly, the one used for NT 3.1 and later Win9x: OS2.NAM. Since they'd implemented DOS-like filenames for OS/2, they didn't bother doing it again when Windows gained long-file-name support, so Windows clients required the OS/2 namespace to be added to a volume before it could store LFNs. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jim at photojim.ca Tue Apr 19 11:24:57 2011 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:24:57 -0600 Subject: amusing letter found in a C64 box References: <176287.35520.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 12:40 AM Subject: Re: amusing letter found in a C64 box > Curious what the gentleman in the letter payed for it. Remember originally > they were 599$. Ouch. There was one that was used for some sort of store > function in an electronic store in a mall, that basically ran very well > and for a long time. But generally they weren't very reliable. The power supplies for the C64 weren't great, but otherwise I found the C64 worked pretty well. I ran a BBS on mine 24/7 for two years and the only failures I had were a PSU failure (on day 100, 10 days after the 90-day warranty expired and long before the BBS was up) and a fried CIA chip (which was usually caused by static electricity when touching the joystick ports, so I could have avoided that by being more careful). I got several good years out of the computer. I've now got my father-in-law's former C64. He bought it in 1984 and it's never been repaired, and still works perfectly. Jim From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 11:24:24 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:24:24 -0300 Subject: Avogadro's number References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com><4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> > Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out > a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this > way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again. Mind translating the joke to a Brazilian non-phisician friend? :oO From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 19 11:43:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:43:30 -0700 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se>, <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com>, <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DAD5942.16306.E7D79@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2011 at 7:01, Al Kossow wrote: > Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole bunch' as in > > "I just got a mole of floppy cables" > > Since most people have no idea how many a mole is. One mole is enough to make a mess out of your lawn. On the other hand, I've found that a ratsnake can keep the number of moles in check. Maybe the snake should be called Avogadro? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 19 11:45:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:45:49 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com><4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com> <78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> Message-ID: <4DADBC3D.7080009@neurotica.com> On 4/19/11 12:24 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out a >> tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this >> way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again. > > Mind translating the joke to a Brazilian non-phisician friend? :oO Ah, it wasn't really a joke! :) Mole sauce (as you know) is based on chocolate, and Sridhar is allergic to chocolate. He can eat it if he takes a lot of benadryl first. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 19 11:47:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:47:55 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <201104191554.p3JFsnOE013918@floodgap.com> References: <201104191554.p3JFsnOE013918@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DADBCBB.9020209@neurotica.com> On 4/19/11 11:54 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out >> a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this >> way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again. > > The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch. Whatsamatta, you don't like mole sauce? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 19 11:55:50 2011 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:55:50 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DADBC3D.7080009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <602483.37057.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:45:49 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ah, it wasn't really a joke! :) Mole sauce (as you know) is based on >chocolate, and Sridhar is allergic to chocolate. He can eat it if he >takes a lot of benadryl first. > -Dave Is that subject to HIPAA disclosure of some kind :) The Other Bob From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 19 11:59:45 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:59:45 -0700 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 7:01 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Avogadro's number > > On 4/19/11 6:11 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Tom wrote: > >> I saw this on the bathroom wall at school once: "For a good time, > call > >> Avogadro, 6.02x10^23." > > > > And, as we know, one Avogadro makes one Mole sauce. > > > > Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole bunch' as in > > "I just got a mole of floppy cables" > > Since most people have no idea how many a mole is. > I once had a chemistry professor who talked about having a mole of Volkswagens. It was his way to say that a mole is like a dozen or a score, just bigger. He drove a Land Rover - I had to ask. -- Ian From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 19 12:02:02 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 10:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to thin a collection... Message-ID: I'm wondering how many here have put any real effort or thought into thinning out thier collection, and the question of spares. Last night I started. So far I've been trying to identify dead equipment, and have gotten as far as testing some terminals, and a couple compact Mac's (I've identified a dead Mac Colour Classic). One of the questions that comes to mind is this. How many spares is too many? Also is anyone in the Portland, Oregon area interested in junk I'll be dumping? Local pickup only. I don't know if someone might be interested in things like the dead Mac Colour Classic for parts. I do have a list of a few items I'll be keeping an eye out for that have been promised to a couple list members. Zane From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 12:05:56 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:05:56 -0300 Subject: Avogadro's number References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com><4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com><78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> <4DADBC3D.7080009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <055AD44AC23245FDAD2F3186C3E12106@portajara> >> Mind translating the joke to a Brazilian non-phisician friend? :oO > Ah, it wasn't really a joke! :) Mole sauce (as you know) is based on > chocolate, and Sridhar is allergic to chocolate. He can eat it if he > takes a lot of benadryl first. Well, I didn't know what mole sauce was :) Nor Benadryl...Better use google first, next time :) Thanks anyway! :D From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 19 12:11:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:11:39 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <055AD44AC23245FDAD2F3186C3E12106@portajara> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com><4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com><78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> <4DADBC3D.7080009@neurotica.com> <055AD44AC23245FDAD2F3186C3E12106@portajara> Message-ID: <4DADC24B.4020306@neurotica.com> On 4/19/11 1:05 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Mind translating the joke to a Brazilian non-phisician friend? :oO >> Ah, it wasn't really a joke! :) Mole sauce (as you know) is based on >> chocolate, and Sridhar is allergic to chocolate. He can eat it if he >> takes a lot of benadryl first. > > Well, I didn't know what mole sauce was :) Nor Benadryl...Better use > google first, next time :) Thanks anyway! :D Ah, I thought mole sauce was also a part of Brazilian cuisine. I just looked it up; it is purely Mexican...about as far from you as I am. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mole_%28sauce%29 -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 19 12:32:41 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:32:41 -0400 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DADC739.9040804@snarc.net> > One of the questions that comes to mind is this. How many spares is > too many? Here at the MARCH Computer Museum, we consider selling things whenever we have four or more of something. It's good to have a display system, a backup, and a parts machine / backup to the backup. But once we have a fourth, fifth, or fourteenth (as is currently the case with our model '33 teletypes!), then we start parsing the collection. As such, at the VCF East next month, we'll have a MARCH Overstock Sale. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 12:42:16 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:42:16 -0500 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DADC978.50403@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I'm wondering how many here have put any real effort or thought into > thinning out thier collection, and the question of spares. > > Last night I started. So far I've been trying to identify dead equipment, > and have gotten as far as testing some terminals, and a couple compact > Mac's > (I've identified a dead Mac Colour Classic). When I moved, I went through that whole process - if I could, I kept two of anything that was small enough, plus spare boards, plus spare ICs, plus odds and ends which would allow me to build base machines up (non-destructively) into different configurations. All that stuff's in storage overseas still. Probably about 35% of what I kept was non-working, but I felt I'd have a good chance of being able to get running again one day (and more than likely wouldn't ever have the opportunity to obtain another complete/working example) At the other end of the scale, I parted with a few things that although really interesting were going to turn into big boat anchors one day due to 'quirky' drives, unobtainable media, enormous custom ICs etc. - it didn't seem sensible to pay the shipping costs for something that might die at any moment. > Also is anyone in the Portland, Oregon area interested in junk I'll be > dumping? Local pickup only. Wish you were closer. I'd love an old terminal, even! cheers Jules From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 12:30:31 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:30:31 -0300 Subject: Avogadro's number References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com><4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com><78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> <4DADBC3D.7080009@neurotica.com><055AD44AC23245FDAD2F3186C3E12106@portajara> <4DADC24B.4020306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6460B85F560D42DEAE361231D389DBC1@portajara> > Ah, I thought mole sauce was also a part of Brazilian cuisine. I just > looked it up; it is purely Mexican...about as far from you as I am. :) Ah, you also thinks I speak spanish and the our downtown is buenos aires? ;oD I'd love to know why most americans thinks we speak spanish :) Maybe because for the one that doesn't know portuguese or spanish, the languages are very alike... From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 19 12:58:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:58:27 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <6460B85F560D42DEAE361231D389DBC1@portajara> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com><4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com><78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> <4DADBC3D.7080009@neurotica.com><055AD44AC23245FDAD2F3186C3E12106@portajara> <4DADC24B.4020306@neurotica.com> <6460B85F560D42DEAE361231D389DBC1@portajara> Message-ID: <4DADCD43.4050809@neurotica.com> On 4/19/11 1:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Ah, I thought mole sauce was also a part of Brazilian cuisine. I just >> looked it up; it is purely Mexican...about as far from you as I am. :) > > Ah, you also thinks I speak spanish and the our downtown is buenos > aires? ;oD > > I'd love to know why most americans thinks we speak spanish :) Maybe > because for the one that doesn't know portuguese or spanish, the > languages are very alike... No, I am very proud of the fact that I know a little bit about your part of the world. :) I dated a Colombian girl for a long time, and she educated me. I also have some Brazilian friends. :) I just thought mole sauce was common in much of South America, but was mistaken. Julia (my Colombian ex-girlfriend) introduced me to it as something she'd had many times before she moved here. It is very true, and very sad, that many (most?) Americans think that anyone who has slightly darker skin and is from ANY country south of the USA is automatically "Mexican", speaks Spanish, and all eat the same kind of food. I apologize on their behalf. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 19 13:05:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:05:59 -0700 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <6460B85F560D42DEAE361231D389DBC1@portajara> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se>, <6460B85F560D42DEAE361231D389DBC1@portajara> Message-ID: <4DAD6C97.29291.59FE44@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2011 at 14:30, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I'd love to know why most americans thinks we speak spanish :) Maybe > because for the one that doesn't know portuguese or spanish, the > languages are very alike... Most Americans couldn't find Brazil on a world map. Probably one- third thinks that it's in Europe. I suspect that fewer than one in ten could name the capital. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 13:07:15 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:07:15 -0300 Subject: Avogadro's number References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com><4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com><78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> <4DADBC3D.7080009@neurotica.com><055AD44AC23245FDAD2F3186C3E12106@portajara> <4DADC24B.4020306@neurotica.com><6460B85F560D42DEAE361231D389DBC1@portajara> <4DADCD43.4050809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <70944F4015584A64A7D72FB19A78A2BF@portajara> > It is very true, and very sad, that many (most?) Americans think that > anyone who has slightly darker skin and is from ANY country south of the > USA is automatically "Mexican", speaks Spanish, and all eat the same kind > of food. I apologize on their behalf. Nah, no problem, yo tambien hablo espanol :) I don't think it is a shame that most people don't know nuts about my country...but there are lots of wonderful things to be discovered here :) End of offtopic, lets talk computers! :D From useddec at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 13:08:20 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:08:20 -0500 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4DACA2B5020000E40001DA97@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> References: <4DACA2B5020000E40001DA97@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Message-ID: Hi Mark, I don't remember what the difference would be, but I seem to recall the MS11-JP might have a parity enable/disable switch on it. The parity control card is seperate, and you did not mention it. Also, do you have a M9302 terminator? Good Luck, Paul On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 7:44 PM, Mark Csele wrote: > Well, a few more bizarre things to report: > > I tried to disable interrupt sources as suggested. ?The only one, apparently, was the DL11-W SLU/LTC card which was set for both functions. ?The card was reconfigured to be "SLU Only". ?No change in behaviour. ?The DL11-W console is set for address 177560, vector 60. > > Next, there are three memory cards: one M7847-DJ (16K*18 MOS, MS11-JP), one "Motorola memory systems" card with 48K words, and one "MOSTEK memory systems" card with 96K words. ?Both the two later cards use 4116 DRAM chips. > > Tried to use the M7847-DJ card alone (after all, RT-11SJ should run on 16KW of memory). ?Reconfigured the card address to start at 0 and verified that it occupies addresses 000000 to 077777 via the front panel. ?When the machine it turned on, the display reads "054207" (this was not expected). ?Tried booting using the bootstrap on the M9301-YB card: the heads don't engage at all and the program halts rapidly displaying "173764" ... BIZARRE since that is a non-existent address. > > Next, tried the Motorola memory card which was already configured to start at 0. ?When the CPU is powered-on, displays "000002" on the display. ?Tried to boot the disk, heads engage, a few steps of the disk heads, and halts again at "005134". > > Finally, tried the MOSTEK memory card. ?Reconfigured to start at 0, and verified that addresses 000000 through 377777 are occupied by RAM. ?Powers up with a display of 000002 and halts at 005134 when a boot is attempted. > > The system is now stripped during testing, consisting of the following: > Slot 1/2 = CPU, Slot 3=M7859 Panel interface and M9301-YB bootstrap/terminator, Slot 4=memory, slot 5&6&7 empty (with a grant continuity card in D), slot 8=M7856 SLU/LTC, slot 9=M9302 at the unibus end and M7846 RX-01 interface. > > Originally, had three memory cards in slots 4&5&6. > > Now I'm just puzzled. > > Question: Should the unit power-up with "000002"? > > As I was typing this, had a thought about slots: I recall reading something about not putting memory into slot 9. ?So, I moved the RX-01 controller to slot 6 (and moved the grant card in slot 9D). ?Now, when powered-up with the Motorola or Mostek memory cards, displays "000000" but otherwise no changes in booting behaviour. ?When the MS11-JP RAM was installed instead, displays "177777" once, "163776" the next time (when powered up), and still absolutely nothing when boot is attempted (i.e. no heads engaging at all). > > Is there something about RT-11 5.04 that I am not aware-of? ?An it was suggested that there is a difference between the Unibus and Q-Bus boot ... any thoughts on that one? > > I can't see memory being the issue anyway: sure, 16KW might be an issue (and that card might even be 'flaky'), but the other two cards are large enough. > > I suppose I could try an older copy of RT-11 however 5.04 is the only one I currently have which also has DX.SYS and DU.SYS drivers (allowing me to make a bootable copy on my LSI-11 system which has an MSCP drive ... I believe previous versions of RT-11 lacked MSCP "DU" device support?). > > Cheers! Mark > >>> >>> Thanks for the suggestions so far. ?I tried a few things with the = >>> following to report: >>> >>> I verified the copy of RT-11 on RX-01 floppy. ?It boots fine on the LSI-11 = >>> system it was built on, tried "BOOT RT11SJ" as well as with the "/FOREIGN" = >>> option and it ran fine on that system (which has an M7946 controller). ?= >>> The drive is configured for RX-01 mode only (since these are the only = >>> controllers I have in both Q-Bus and Unibus flavour). >>> >>> Now, put that same drive on the 11/34 CPU with an M7846 card. ?Checked the = >>> CPU carefully: NPG jumpers are all intact on the backplane (CA1-CA2) and = >>> all unused slot D's have a grant continuity card. ?Just to ensure it works = >>> I reconfigured the console for 9600 baud (originally 300) and ran a simple = >>> "echo" program loaded at 001000 which runs fine (so it can store programs = >>> in memory and the execute them). ?The system has loads of memory - three = >>> cards with 16K, 48KW, and 96kW on them - so I did a quick check at = >>> locations 100000 and 700000 and memory is certainly there. > >>Some random thoughts > >>What devices do you have in the 11/34 system? An RX11, obviously. A >>DL11-something (but what?) for the console port. Anything else? > >>Obviously the console and the RX11 must be at the right I/O addresses for >>the system to get as far as it has. What about the interrupt vector >>settings? Are those correct. Could it be falling over when it enables >>interrupts on some device, the interurpt comes along and the vector is >>not what's expected so it goes to thw wrong routine. > >>You have an M9301 at the CPU end of the bus. What, if any, terminator do >>you have at the other end? Unibus (unlike Q-bus, normally) is terminated >>at both ends. > >>Could it be a bad memory location? RT11SJ doesn't need much RAM to boot, >>so perhaps you could try yor memory boards one at a time, each one set to >>start at location 0, and see if that helps. > >>-tony > > > Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. > Niagara College, Canada > 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 > Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 > > (905) 735-2211?x.7629 > E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca > URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele > Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Apr 19 13:16:18 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 11:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DADCD43.4050809@neurotica.com> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com><4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com><78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> <4DADBC3D.7080009@neurotica.com><055AD44AC23245FDAD2F3186C3E12106@portajara> <4DADC24B.4020306@neurotica.com> <6460B85F560D42DEAE361231D389DBC1@portajara> <4DADCD43.4050809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/19/11 1:30 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Ah, I thought mole sauce was also a part of Brazilian cuisine. I just >>> looked it up; it is purely Mexican...about as far from you as I am. :) >> >> Ah, you also thinks I speak spanish and the our downtown is buenos >> aires? ;oD >> >> I'd love to know why most americans thinks we speak spanish :) Maybe >> because for the one that doesn't know portuguese or spanish, the >> languages are very alike... > > It is very true, and very sad, that many (most?) Americans think that > anyone who has slightly darker skin and is from ANY country south of the USA > is automatically "Mexican", speaks Spanish, and all eat the same kind of > food. I apologize on their behalf. > +1 Dave. They're likely of the same subset that thinks it's entirely possible to see Russia from Wasilla, AK. *rolls eyes* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 14:03:21 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:03:21 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com><4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com><78CF1645E935459D90DFAAE1BE527480@portajara> <4DADBC3D.7080009@neurotica.com><055AD44AC23245FDAD2F3186C3E12106@portajara> <4DADC24B.4020306@neurotica.com> <6460B85F560D42DEAE361231D389DBC1@portajara> <4DADCD43.4050809@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DADDC79.3020402@gmail.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > +1 Dave. They're likely of the same subset that thinks it's entirely > possible to see Russia from Wasilla, AK. *rolls eyes* You can see Russia from Wasilla, AK. You need to use a camera, encoder/decoders, uplinks, and a satellite, but it can be done. Peace... Sridhar From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Apr 19 14:09:36 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:09:36 -0700 Subject: PC Keyboard to serial adapter... Message-ID: <201104191209.37143.lbickley@bickleywest.com> One item I've needed on several occasions was an ASCII keyboard (TTL or RS-323 levels) for a vintage system. While I do have a few Keytronic serial keyboards with TTL output - they are old and can be "flaky". I found a pair of products that convert a standard PS/2 keyboard to RS-232 ASCII output (and can be modified for TTL). In addition, the vendor was very cooperative about modifying his product to meet the needs of those of us in the vintage computer community. To be specific, the standard products support baud rates from 2400bps to 115Kbs. I contacted the owner of the company ("John Ursoleo" ) saying that for the vintage systems I was working with, I needed lower baud rates. John asked me to send my units back - and reprogrammed them to support the following baud rates: 110, 300, 600, 1200, 2400, 4800, 9600 and 19,200. He sent them back to me, and I tested them again with the low speed option and they worked great. The "low baud rate" version of these products can be ordered with the /LB option. Here's where to get the products, manuals, etc.: PS2ADPT http://www.versalent.biz/seradpt.htm PS2PRO http://www.versalent.biz/ps2pro.htm Note: The standard output of this product is RS-232 voltage levels - but it is easy to modify them for TTL levels. Doing so voids the warranty - so you are on your own with this mod. I have NO financial interest in this recommendation - it's just a good product I've found useful... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 19 14:31:15 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:31:15 -0400 Subject: PC Keyboard to serial adapter... In-Reply-To: <201104191209.37143.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201104191209.37143.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4DADE303.1040705@atarimuseum.com> This may help, note the schematic, it has basic ASCI RX/TX off of the Max232 http://hackaday.com/2008/05/29/how-to-super-simple-serial-terminal/ Curt Lyle Bickley wrote: > One item I've needed on several occasions was an ASCII keyboard (TTL or RS-323 levels) for a vintage system. While I do have a few Keytronic serial keyboards with TTL output - they are old and can be "flaky". > > I found a pair of products that convert a standard PS/2 keyboard to RS-232 ASCII output (and can be modified for TTL). In addition, the vendor was very cooperative about modifying his product to meet the needs of those of us in the vintage computer community. > > To be specific, the standard products support baud rates from 2400bps to 115Kbs. > > I contacted the owner of the company ("John Ursoleo" ) saying that for the vintage systems I was working with, I needed lower baud rates. John asked me to send my units back - and reprogrammed them to support the following baud rates: 110, 300, 600, 1200, 2400, 4800, 9600 and 19,200. He sent them back to me, and I tested them again with the low speed option and they worked great. > > The "low baud rate" version of these products can be ordered with the /LB option. > > Here's where to get the products, manuals, etc.: > PS2ADPT http://www.versalent.biz/seradpt.htm > PS2PRO http://www.versalent.biz/ps2pro.htm > > Note: The standard output of this product is RS-232 voltage levels - but it is easy to modify them for TTL levels. Doing so voids the warranty - so you are on your own with this mod. > > I have NO financial interest in this recommendation - it's just a good product I've found useful... > > Cheers, > Lyle > From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Tue Apr 19 14:45:46 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:45:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PC Keyboard to serial adapter... In-Reply-To: <201104191209.37143.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Lyle Bickley wrote: > One item I've needed on several occasions was an ASCII keyboard (TTL or RS-323 levels) for a vintage system. While I do have a few Keytronic serial keyboards with TTL output - they are old and can be "flaky". > > I found a pair of products that convert a standard PS/2 keyboard to RS-232 ASCII output (and can be modified for TTL). In addition, the vendor was very cooperative about modifying his product to meet the needs of those of us in the vintage computer community. Our own Jim Brain has such a product. I personally use it on my Vector Graphic and can verify it works perfectly. - JP From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 19 14:50:58 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:50:58 -0700 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <201104191554.p3JFsnOE013918@floodgap.com> References: <4DADAC93.80104@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 19, 11 11:38:59 am" <201104191554.p3JFsnOE013918@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 8:55 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Avogadro's number > > > Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned > out > > a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out > this > > way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it > again. > > The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch. > We have an on-list physician? Cool! Hey Doc, I have this pain... probably from pushing around 300 lb. disk drives.... -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 19 14:54:36 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:54:36 -0700 Subject: Troubleshooting a Xerox Alto: failure to boot Message-ID: I know there's been discussion in the not too distant past about troubleshooting a Xerox Alto, but I just want to add a couple of words on the subject. Ours went dead suddenly: it had been left running with the monitor turned off and, when I turned the monitor on, the cursor was on the screen in the upper left corner and was unresponsive. I rebooted with the button on the back of the keyboard and the screen went blank white. There didn't appear to be any response (seek behavior) from the disk (the Diablo 31 shakes things pretty well as it seeks). I shut down the machine and began to strategize. First I wanted to be sure the basics were OK. I used a scope and DVM to check all the power supplies, both for voltage level and noise: good. I scoped the clocks: good. Damn, nothing easy. I checked with the man who had sold us the machine (and who had originally restored it) to see if he had any advice on where to start. He wished me luck. :-) Since the Alto was a research platform, neither the documentation nor the engineering drawings were created with the idea of troubleshooting. I suspect the original Xerox repair strategy was, "Ask so-and-so at PARC." I took a hard look at the disk subsystem, since according to the documentation (AltoSubsystems.pdf) the first thing the firmware does on reboot is load a sector from the disk. I scoped signals that go into and came out from the disk and saw that a key enable line from the Alto, *RDGATE, was not asserting. The documentation for the Diablo 31 was helpful here. There were two possible reasons: it was not being 'told' to assert by the microcode, or there was a logic flaw along the combinatorial path. Recalling that the cursor was still being generated (a microcode task) when I turned off the machine, I initially figured the processor was OK. I traced through the disk controller's logic with the scope but found no smoking gun (or chip). So I reversed myself on the processor - time to get out the logic analyzer. Now don't get me wrong, I love the logic analyzer (HP 1630G). It's a powerful tool, and it's geek fun to play with one. But it's also a pain to hook up all those little leads, especially if, like me, you have "mature eyes." Further, the Alto doesn't make it all that easy: there are no extension boards available for its 122-pin backplane. (I plan to make some.) Fortunately, many key signals are present on the backplane, and the disk interface card is in the bottom slot of the card cage with several empty slots above it. It was tight in there, but I managed to get DIP clips on ICs and hook up analyzer lines. First I looked at the processor bus. In AltoSubsystems.pdf, it's documented that the microcode looks at the word coming from the keyboard to determine which disk sector to load (or whether to net-boot). At first, it looked like I had a stuck bit on the processor bus. Examining the drawings, I learned that the processor bus is a pretty conventional wire-OR design with termination on one end at the Memory Extension And Termination (MEAT) board, and on the other end on... the disk interface board! I verified the seating of pull-up and pull-down resistor packs in their sockets, tested some more - and ultimately figured out that one bit was bad on the analyzer pod! Using a different pod, I was now seeing activity on all 16 lines (remember, bit 0 is MSB). I was able to capture the assertion of the keyboard word on the bus as well as the changing response with various key presses, giving me confidence that the microcode engine was running and sane. But *RDGATE still wasn't asserting. Damn, back into the disk board logic. >From there it was a simple but tedious matter of tracing back from the disk interface toward where the microcode was consumed to drive the assertion of the control line. With the logic analyzer, I traced the failure to A41, a 74H11 AND gate that wasn't AND-ing (output stuck low). Problem solved. So I think the takeaways are that it's important to know the processor is working, and looking for the appearance of the keyboard word address (177034 octal) on boot is one way to know that the firmware is being run. (The blank white screen is meaningless - the display controller H/V oscillators free-run until they're brought under control by the microcode.) Also, nearly every signal line is a complex combination of both active logic driven by the microcode and "control" logic representing various inputs from hardware elements that run concurrently with but separately from the microcode engine. IMHO this makes it hard to find even moderately involved failures with a scope alone. The engineering drawings (AltoIIMaintSchem_1978.pdf, for our machine) document the combinatorial logic pretty well, but the alphabet soup of the signal names may take a bit of puzzling to decipher sometimes. One critical set of signal lines is from the task priority encoder: unlike a modern system, the tasks are cooperative and are represented by signal lines that enable parts of the control logic. A particular value on e.g. the processor bus will "mean" something completely different depending on which task's signal line is asserted. The hardware manual (Alto_Hardware_Manual_May79.pdf) does contain a lot of information about this, but you need to read both the "Microprocessor" section and the "Control RAM, ROM, and S Registers" section to get the whole picture. The documents I've cited are all available on (and were retrieved from) BitSavers - thanks, Al! I hope my experience is helpful for someone out there.... -- Ian UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum A project of Vulcan, Inc. http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 19 14:56:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:56:11 -0600 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > I'm wondering how many here have put any real effort or thought into > thinning out thier collection, and the question of spares. On thinning: one way you can thin your collection is to remove a whole line of collecting. For instance, I have a few microcomputers that I've acquired that aren't exactly terminal or graphics related. (These are the two areas that I actively collect.) So for me, those would be the first things to go. Also I might include items where I have a partial system and obtaining the rest of the pieces needed to make the system operational is expensive. I have an Evans & Sutherland flight simulation image generator. Getting the remainder needed to make a functioning flight simulator (gimbal platform, avionics controls, mock cockpit, projectors) is very expensive and flight simulation machines still have a vibrant secondary market. So even though that is very graphics related, its highly unlikely I'd be able to get the rest of the components needed to make it a functioning system and/or exhibit. On spares: it depends on your comfort level in repair work and the intended use of the systems. For my purposes, I intend to make working exhibits so I tend to overallocate for spares than most people. If you are comfortable at repairing boards and diagnosing components, then you may need fewer spares. Similarly, if the items in question have readily obtainable spares (like a Mac, for instance), then having an inventory of spares is more of a convenience than a critical need. For myself, SGI machines still have a readily available supply of spares for things like Indigo^2 and later, but earlier machines are really quite in short supply. So for some things I've accumulated more spares than might seem reasonable, even for my needs, because I know stuff eventually breaks and when it breaks the spares may not be available at that time. > Last night I started. So far I've been trying to identify dead equipment, > and have gotten as far as testing some terminals, and a couple compact Mac's > (I've identified a dead Mac Colour Classic). I would be interested in hearing what kind of terminals you'd like to unload, of course :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 19 14:56:17 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 12:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <201104191023.51519.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> <4DAD995F.7090005@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <201104191023.51519.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20110419125349.S91338@shell.lmi.net> > > > Since most people have no idea how many a mole is. > > That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder how long a mole of > > floppy cables would be if laid end to end...... > Assuming they're each 1ft long, that's over 19e6 light years according > to google. Won't work. I've cabled to drives a dozen feet away; the spec calls for less distance. From drb at msu.edu Tue Apr 19 15:05:52 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 16:05:52 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 19 Apr 2011 09:11:39 EDT.) <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> References: <4DAD8A0B.5010103@gmail.com> <4DAB318C.5010603@otter.se> <4dacc4c7.94a5e70a.5ad5.ffffaccc@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20110419200552.CF096A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > And, as we know, one Avogadro makes one Mole sauce. I prefer guacamole. De From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 19 15:27:03 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 16:27:03 -0400 Subject: How to thin a collection... References: Message-ID: <6F53F9AC73034EBFA04237B2F569D2D4@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 1:02 PM Subject: How to thin a collection... > > I'm wondering how many here have put any real effort or thought into > thinning out thier collection, and the question of spares. > > Last night I started. So far I've been trying to identify dead equipment, > and have gotten as far as testing some terminals, and a couple compact > Mac's > (I've identified a dead Mac Colour Classic). > > One of the questions that comes to mind is this. How many spares is too > many? > > Also is anyone in the Portland, Oregon area interested in junk I'll be > dumping? Local pickup only. I don't know if someone might be interested > in > things like the dead Mac Colour Classic for parts. > > I do have a list of a few items I'll be keeping an eye out for that have > been promised to a couple list members. > > Zane > I tend to keep spare machines based on how easy and expensive it is to get another when needed, and how much I like the system. Pretty much everything I have is working and tested except for a few laptops I keep for parts only. What's wrong with the color classic? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 19 15:51:51 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:51:51 -0700 Subject: Troubleshooting a Xerox Alto: failure to boot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DADF5E7.9040609@bitsavers.org> On 4/19/11 12:54 PM, Ian King wrote: > I hope my experience is helpful for someone out there.... -- Ian > Thanks for writing your experiences up, Ian. The shop at PARC had special stuff set up to make troubleshooting systems easier. The Alto is challenging to debug since it is a very integrated design, and there isn't anything obvious during the initial boot process to tell you if the system is stone dead or if one of the peripherals is acting up. The most common points of failure in my experience have been in the display and disk subsystems. Well, that's not strictly true, I've seen lots of control store and power supply failures as well. But, once you get them to pass diagnostics and run Smalltalk, they seem pretty solid. I had thought about building something with blinkenlights to plug onto the wirewrapped backplane to watch the data bus and task lines, but never got around to it. I have slowly been working on the USB ethernet and disk simulator projects, which is something I need if we find the time to restore a couple at CHM. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 19 15:57:21 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: from Ian King at "Apr 19, 11 12:50:58 pm" Message-ID: <201104192057.p3JKvL86013072@floodgap.com> > Hey Doc, I have this pain... probably from pushing around 300 lb. disk > drives.... -- Ian "Doc, it hurts when I do this." "Then don't do that." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Experience varies directly with amount of equipment ruined. ---------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 19 16:01:20 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DADBCBB.9020209@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 19, 11 12:47:55 pm" Message-ID: <201104192101.p3JL1Kfc015500@floodgap.com> > > > Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out > > > a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this > > > way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again. > > > > The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch. > > Whatsamatta, you don't like mole sauce? No, more the anaphylaxis part. It's hard to instruct people on emergency field intubation over E-mail. Too much latency and the patients die. ;) Although, I'm not too wild about mole; I've had too many dishes that abused it at the cost of other flavours. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You'd pay to know what you REALLY think. ----------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 19 16:08:14 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: <4DADC739.9040804@snarc.net> References: <4DADC739.9040804@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Here at the MARCH Computer Museum, we consider selling things whenever we > have four or more of something. It's good to have a display system, a > backup, and a parts machine / backup to the backup. But once we have a > fourth, fifth, or fourteenth (as is currently the case with our model '33 > teletypes!), then we start parsing the collection. As such, at the VCF East This is kind of what I was thinking. Though the only place I'm really this bad is likely to be with Commodore 64's and VT420's. Though once I have the disaster cleared up, I'll need at least 3-4 working VT420's. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 19 16:10:28 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: <4DADC978.50403@gmail.com> References: <4DADC978.50403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: > At the other end of the scale, I parted with a few things that although > really interesting were going to turn into big boat anchors one day due to > 'quirky' drives, unobtainable media, enormous custom ICs etc. - it didn't > seem sensible to pay the shipping costs for something that might die at any > moment. Excellent point... >> Also is anyone in the Portland, Oregon area interested in junk I'll be >> dumping? Local pickup only. > > Wish you were closer. I'd love an old terminal, even! In that case, I wish you were closer! :-) Shipping on this really isn't practical. In part due to how hard it is to even find time to work on the project. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 19 16:11:10 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:11:10 -0700 Subject: PC Keyboard to serial adapter... In-Reply-To: References: <201104191209.37143.lbickley@bickleywest.com>, Message-ID: <4DAD97FE.8412.10388EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2011 at 14:45, JP Hindin wrote: > On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > One item I've needed on several occasions was an ASCII keyboard (TTL > > or RS-323 levels) for a vintage system. While I do have a few > > Keytronic serial keyboards with TTL output - they are old and can be > > "flaky". I have an Advanced Input Devices AID-3 keyboard with a DE=9M connector on the end of its cable. It looks like an XT keyboard, but output is serial ASCII at TTL levels. I suspect that many "clone" keybaoards using the 8048 with external EPROM can be modified similarly. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Tue Apr 19 16:23:24 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:23:24 -0700 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: References: <4DADC978.50403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DADFD4C.8080301@att.net> what sort of stuff in Portland? worth a drive from San Francisco? Steve On 4/19/2011 2:10 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> At the other end of the scale, I parted with a few things that >> although really interesting were going to turn into big boat anchors >> one day due to 'quirky' drives, unobtainable media, enormous custom >> ICs etc. - it didn't seem sensible to pay the shipping costs for >> something that might die at any moment. > > Excellent point... > >>> Also is anyone in the Portland, Oregon area interested in junk I'll be >>> dumping? Local pickup only. >> >> Wish you were closer. I'd love an old terminal, even! > > In that case, I wish you were closer! :-) Shipping on this really isn't > practical. In part due to how hard it is to even find time to work on > the > project. > > Zane > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 19 16:30:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:30:42 -0400 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <201104192101.p3JL1Kfc015500@floodgap.com> References: <201104192101.p3JL1Kfc015500@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DADFF02.3010401@neurotica.com> On 4/19/11 5:01 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Hey Sridhar, Autumn made a mole sauce a few weeks ago. It turned out >>>> a tad sweet but it was still VERY good. The next time you head out this >>>> way, we'll load you up with benadryl and talk her into making it again. >>> >>> The on-list physician is suitably horrified. And would like to watch. >> >> Whatsamatta, you don't like mole sauce? > > No, more the anaphylaxis part. It's hard to instruct people on emergency > field intubation over E-mail. Too much latency and the patients die. ;) Emergency Field Intubation. I think I saw a band by that name in Baltimore once. > Although, I'm not too wild about mole; I've had too many dishes that abused > it at the cost of other flavours. More for me! =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 19 16:38:36 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Richard wrote: > On thinning: one way you can thin your collection is to remove a whole > line of collecting. For instance, I have a few microcomputers that > I've acquired that aren't exactly terminal or graphics related. > (These are the two areas that I actively collect.) So for me, those > would be the first things to go. This is actually one of the prime things I'm looking at. Case in point. Old PC, Mac, and Sun HW, much of this can be thined out. My key interests are DEC & Commodore systems. Though I think I want to keep the Apple ][ HW as well (or at least some of it). It's likely that some of the DEC HW might even be headed out the door. Some of the "rare" stuff I'd like to sell off (things like the Lisa 2/5). I've spent way, way to much on this junk over the past 14 years. The worst wasn't the cost of aquiring it, but rather the cost of storing it! Up until mid-2009, it was in storage units. > I would be interested in hearing what kind of terminals you'd like to > unload, of course :-). All terminals fall between the DEC VT100 and VT420. As I might have mentioned in another post, I will actually need several, so need to determine which are excess. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 14:45:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:45:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Assembly is dead, etc. In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Apr 18, 11 12:48:06 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 18 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>>> You know, a big calculator that used Cherry keyswitches would just kick > >>>> ass. If you were to kit one, I'd be first in line. :) > >>> > >>> Isn;'t that called an HP9830? > >>> > >> Nope. I wasn't implying a full size keyboard, just a keypad that used > >> full size keys. :) > > > > HP46, or HP81, then I replaced a keyswithc on one for a fellow HPCC > > member, and I am pretty sure I sued a Cherry keyswitch of the type I use > > on my 9830). I susepct a 9805 is similar. > > > I don't want an adding machine - which essentially what those HP devices I would not describe any of those machines as an 'adding machine' :-). It's a pity HP never made a user-programmable machine in that casing (it would have been possible to make a version of the 65 with an internal printer, for example), ut they didn't. Oh well... > are. I was envisioning a hybrid "old style" programmer's calculator that > used a huge keypad and a small LCD display of some kind. Think of the > HP-16C but with large keys on it. OK, get a first-geenration HP16C, the one with the separate logic/display module on the flexible PCB. Extract said module. Wire up a load of Cherry keyswitchs in the appropritate matrix (schematic avaialble from HPCC). Connect them to the flexiprint 'tail' of the module. Satisfied now? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 15:34:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:34:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DACD285.6050500@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Apr 19, 11 01:08:37 am Message-ID: > > On 19/04/2011 00:07, Tom wrote: > > At 12:56 PM 4/18/2011, you wrote: > >> I have an idea that the definition I came across specifies Carbon-12. > >> Since the atomic masses are not exact integer rations of each other (in > >> other words, an oxygen-16 atom is not exactly 4/3 of the mass of a > >> carbon-12 atom), I think you do have to specify the element you are using > >> here. > > Trying to remember my Chemistry A level from 25 years ago.... > > I believe that an Atomic Mass Unit (AMU), is defined as 1/12 of the mass > of a Carbon 12 neucleus. The reason for choosing C-12 is that it has an > equal number of protons and neutrons, so the slight difference in mass Yes, but it's hardly unique in that. So does oxygen 16 )8 of each), helium 4 (2 of each), etc. Hwoever, a carbon 12 atom does not have _exactly_ 3 times the mass of a helium 4 atom. The difference is minute, but when you're defining a unit, it matters. > is averaged out. In the past Hydrogen was used but since (the most Oxygen 16 was also used at one time (a different time :-)) > common isotope) of Hydrogen only contains 1 proton, this lead to > descrepancies for any nucleus with neutrons in. Actually you could pic any atom you liked as the basis of the definiton. The thing is that the exact value of Avogadro's number depends on which atom you use. So you have to specify one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 15:14:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:14:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive In-Reply-To: <4DACA00D.9040905@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Apr 18, 11 10:33:17 pm Message-ID: > >> > It is indeed a rack-and-pinion positioner. > > That is unusual. I think it would be worth trying to restore this drive, > > if only to have a working example of such a mechanism > > > Good point. I don't think they are terribly rare, they probably turn up > on eBay every so often, and Atari 1040s aren't rare. OTOH they seem to > have used a variety of drives. I wonder if either of my 2 STs use that drive. I will have to remember where I've put them and have a look... > 3 per mm was a guess, but I can't see the teeth on the rack with my > naked eye (i.e. wearing reading glasses only). I need a magnitying glass > to see that there are teeth at all. I am goign to have to get one of these drives... > Any alignment must be totally lost by now. But if I do get it working I > can format a disk on it and see if that works. Reading and writing files > might be more of a problem, I can't remember if there is any way to > create directories and files in the bare OS, or if one needs programs > from another disk, in which case I would be out of luck if it is so > badly misaligned that it can't read other disks. Could you connect it up as a second drive? I seem to rememebr there's a socket for that on the ST (a strange 14 pin DIN socket?). Or test it on some other machine that uses a standard-ish floppy drive? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 15:48:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:48:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: 5.25" floppy drive cleaners In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Apr 18, 11 07:52:18 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone know who has a good supply of 5.25" floppy drive cleaning > disks for sale? I prefer to use a box of cototn buds and a can of propan-2-ol... And despite the warnigns in some service manuals I've never managed to misalign a head in any size floppy drive (3", 3.5", 5.5", 8") cleaning it that way. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 19 16:41:37 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 14:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: <6F53F9AC73034EBFA04237B2F569D2D4@dell8300> References: <6F53F9AC73034EBFA04237B2F569D2D4@dell8300> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Teo Zenios wrote: > I tend to keep spare machines based on how easy and expensive it is to get > another when needed, and how much I like the system. Pretty much everything I > have is working and tested except for a few laptops I keep for parts only. I have spares for a lot of this stuff now, if it's things I'll keep, I'm loath to get rid of spares that I might need to keep a system I want to use going. > What's wrong with the color classic? My guess is the power supply. Dunno, it was working when I put it into storage over a decade ago. I quite honestly don't have time to poke at a system I have no use for. Someone has already said they'll take it. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 15:45:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:45:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4DACA2B5020000E40001DA97@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> from "Mark Csele" at Apr 18, 11 08:44:37 pm Message-ID: > > Well, a few more bizarre things to report: > > I tried to disable interrupt sources as suggested. The only one, = > apparently, was the DL11-W SLU/LTC card which was set for both functions. = > The card was reconfigured to be "SLU Only". No change in behaviour. The = > DL11-W console is set for address 177560, vector 60. The console will geneate 2 iterrupt vectors (60 and 64 I think) for transmit and receive. They cannont be set separately, so if the DL11-W is working properly, that's OK. The RX11 will also generate interrupts. What's it set to? > > Next, there are three memory cards: one M7847-DJ (16K*18 MOS, MS11-JP), = > one "Motorola memory systems" card with 48K words, and one "MOSTEK memory = > systems" card with 96K words. Both the two later cards use 4116 DRAM = > chips. Hang on a second. You've got 16Kw + 48Kw + 96kw there. That's 160Kw total. The PDP11/34 (it is an 11/34 IRIC) has 18 bit addressing and can access a total of 128kw. 4Kw are used for the I/O space, so you have have a maximum of 124kw of memory (practically, most memory boards wil lautomatically disable themselves in the I/O space, so you could fit a pair of 64Kw boards, say,m without problems). But with your configuration you must have some locations addressing 2 boards, which is not a good thing. > > Tried to use the M7847-DJ card alone (after all, RT-11SJ should run on = > 16KW of memory). Reconfigured the card address to start at 0 and verified = > that it occupies addresses 000000 to 077777 via the front panel. When the = > machine it turned on, the display reads "054207" (this was not expected). = > Tried booting using the bootstrap on the M9301-YB card: the heads don't = > engage at all and the program halts rapidly displaying "173764" ... = > BIZARRE since that is a non-existent address. Is it? Remeebr the address show is the 16 bit program counter address. If the MMU is disabled (which it will be on power-up, and nothing is going to enable it), addresses starting 16 or 17 are mapped to the I/O space at 76 or 77. So that address is 773764. Which I think is in the bootstrap ROM. > > Next, tried the Motorola memory card which was already configured to start = > at 0. When the CPU is powered-on, displays "000002" on the display. = > Tried to boot the disk, heads engage, a few steps of the disk heads, and = > halts again at "005134". > > Finally, tried the MOSTEK memory card. Reconfigured to start at 0, and = > verified that addresses 000000 through 377777 are occupied by RAM. Powers = > up with a display of 000002 and halts at 005134 when a boot is attempted. > > The system is now stripped during testing, consisting of the following: > Slot 1/2 =3D CPU, Slot 3=3DM7859 Panel interface and M9301-YB bootstrap/ter= > minator, Slot 4=3Dmemory, slot 5&6&7 empty (with a grant continuity card = > in D), slot 8=3DM7856 SLU/LTC, slot 9=3DM9302 at the unibus end and M7846 = > RX-01 interface. That sounds OK. > As I was typing this, had a thought about slots: I recall reading = > something about not putting memory into slot 9. So, I moved the RX-01 = Yes, The reason is that memroy boards are MUD (Modified Unibus Device) boards and take their signals from connectors A,B (this matters on machines like the 11/44 which have a 22 bit address bus, and where the addres lines on A,B are not the same as those on E). Device controllers (SPCs -- Small Peripheral Controller) take their signals from C-F. On slot 9, the A/B conenctors are the Unibus output to the next backplane (or for a terminaotr) and are not qurie the same signals as the ones on an MUD slot. In fact I think on some machines you can short out a power rail by putting an MUD card in the Unibus Out slot or a termintor in an MUD slot. > controller to slot 6 (and moved the grant card in slot 9D). Now, when = > powered-up with the Motorola or Mostek memory cards, displays "000000" but = > otherwise no changes in booting behaviour. When the MS11-JP RAM was = > installed instead, displays "177777" once, "163776" the next time (when = > powered up), and still absolutely nothing when boot is attempted (i.e. no = > heads engaging at all). > > Is there something about RT-11 5.04 that I am not aware-of? An it was = > suggested that there is a difference between the Unibus and Q-Bus boot ... = > any thoughts on that one? =20 I've never heard of that being a problem... > > I can't see memory being the issue anyway: sure, 16KW might be an issue = > (and that card might even be 'flaky'), but the other two cards are large = > enough. Silly question... Whenever I hear of a PDP11 wit flaky memeory I think of the time I was led a merry dance by my 11/45. It turns out the problem ther was power supply related (one ofthe 5V lines was sitting at 4.4V). Have tyoy checked all the power supply voltages with the machine in operation? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 15:57:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:57:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: <3D2C8796B61E4AB1861641B38023871F@RODSDEVSYSTEM> from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 19, 11 07:05:04 am Message-ID: > > > I use Morse on a daily basis and am completely self taught (over 50years > ago). I don't think it=92s an "I can/can't do it situation." Learning it = > is > another matter. If you can't pick it up yourself then find somebody > qualified to teach you. Secveral people have tried with me -- and given up. You are welcome to try. > After all, the military and commercial shipping used to train thousands = > of > 20wpm morse operators. Provided you are not visually and or aurally = Do you know that they had a 100% success rate? Otherwise, all that shows is that they had enough applicants to be able to find sufficient people who could handle morse. > impaired > (I am partially both and still have no problems) then CW is for you. > > Why use CW? That=92s the easy one. It will always get through where = > voice will > not. =20 That, IMHO, is incorrect. Firstly, it's obvious that there are times when no signal is received (or there's so much noise that the wnated signal can't be found, or...). In that case morse won't 'get through' (nor will voice, of course). So to say that morse will 'always get throguh when voice will not' is nonsense Seconmly, I am pretty sure that fsk gives a better perfomrance than on-off keying aundr almost all circumstances. And that there are plenty of better error correcting schemes than morse. So, no, CW morse is not optimal in any respsect. If you enjoy using morse, fine. I will be the first to defend your right to do so. But I still feel it was correct that it was removed from the licensing exams. The purpose of the license is to ensure that you are able to desing/build/opeate a transmitter without causing harmful interfernece to others (in much the same way that a driving test is to ensure you can cotnro la motor vehicle on the public highway without being a danger to yourself or other road users). The amatuur exam is not, and should not, be a way of saying 'I'm a better ham than you are'. That can be decied later. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 16:03:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 22:03:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DAD95AE.8070502@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Apr 19, 11 07:01:18 am Message-ID: > Mole is also a good approximation for 'a whole bunch' as in > > "I just got a mole of floppy cables" > > Since most people have no idea how many a mole is. I am, however, sure that I cou;dn't fit a mole of floppy disks in my workshop amd that I wouldn't have time to load each one to read it. Heck, I am pretty sure that the total number of floppies ever manufactured would come close ot being a mole of them -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 16:07:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 22:07:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: <4DAD995F.7090005@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Apr 19, 11 03:17:03 pm Message-ID: > That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder how long a mole of floppy > cables would be if laid end to end...... I've guessed they're 0.5m long each (seems about right). In which case I calculate (or rather my HP48 calculates) that a mole of them would br about 32 million lightyears long... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 16:16:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 22:16:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: <4DADA38B.9070103@verizon.net> from "Keith Monahan" at Apr 19, 11 11:00:27 am Message-ID: > > On 4/19/2011 5:33 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > Having never purchased from him, but having had a similar experience > > (several) from other sellers.... It is entirely possible that something has > > changed lately with him or his "shop" that has left him overwhelmed. If > > recent feedback shows that this is an increasing trend, then I for one am > > glad that the OP posted, for it is good information to have if I were in the > > market for anything he were selling. > > Exactly. I checked his ebay feedback, and most of his problems appear > to be relatively recent. > > The real problem here is lack of communication by the seller. Everyone > understands that sometimes things are slower, that maybe you only make > it to the post office once a week or something. But that's not the main > problem. EXACTLY. It's why, whenever I pay an e-bay seller I put in the 'comment field' something like 'Please let me know if there are any problems'. And I mean it. Things can go wrong on both sides. Perhaps my paypal transfer didn't get thpugh. I will try again. Maybe you can only get to the post office on alternate Fridays (or whatever). Fine, I'll understand. But I'd rather not be trying to chase a parcel that's not even been sent.. If you (the seller) have a lot of other work on, or you've got persona;l problems, or... then I'll understand. But _please_ keep me informed. Of coruse if you get the item in the post whin a few days of the end of the auction, then thats' great and you don't need to tell me... And please give me the tracking number (most sellers do). I am quite happy to keep an eye on parcels coming to me. I once saw a seller who said in their listings 'We do nto provide a tracking number under any circumstances'. No way was I goign to bid on anything from him. I can think of no reason for refusing to give ou that infortmation to the buyer if you're honest. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 19 17:16:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:16:43 -0700 Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive In-Reply-To: References: <4DACA00D.9040905@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Apr 18, 11 10:33:17 pm, Message-ID: <4DADA75B.13161.13F8F21@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2011 at 21:14, Tony Duell wrote: > I wonder if either of my 2 STs use that drive. I will have to remember > where I've put them and have a look... I recall that the 520ST external drive was a piece of plastic garbage. That it used a rack-and-pinion positioning mechanism wouldn't surprise me. My only use for one was the cable with the strange DIN connector. I used it to hook up an extrnal box with two NEC HH 720K drives and tossed the ST drive box into the trash. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 19 18:09:00 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 17:09:00 -0600 Subject: ebay: Burroughs/Unisys B26 CPU $0.99 Message-ID: Not sure if this is a complete unit or not, but perhaps for $0.99 some Burroughs collector is interested. ebay item # 280661231045 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 19 18:25:34 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 16:25:34 -0700 Subject: ebay: Burroughs/Unisys B26 CPU $0.99 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAE19EE.7060804@bitsavers.org> On 4/19/11 4:09 PM, Richard wrote: > but perhaps for $0.99 > look at the shipping price. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 19 18:28:23 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 16:28:23 -0700 Subject: ebay: Burroughs/Unisys B26 CPU $0.99 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAE1A97.3030505@jwsss.com> On 4/19/2011 4:09 PM, Richard wrote: > Not sure if this is a complete unit or not, but perhaps for $0.99 > some Burroughs collector is interested. > > ebay item # 280661231045 > Worse is that all the parts are in separate auctions. Pitty the person who wants it to work and doesn't win all the auctions. is this like the Convergent Technology boxes? I forget what is involved in this system. Jim From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 19 18:31:20 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 19:31:20 -0400 Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive In-Reply-To: <4DADA75B.13161.13F8F21@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DACA00D.9040905@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Apr 18, 11 10:33:17 pm, <4DADA75B.13161.13F8F21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DAE1B48.3040605@atarimuseum.com> The initial ST disk drives were from Epson and then later Sony Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Apr 2011 at 21:14, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> I wonder if either of my 2 STs use that drive. I will have to remember >> where I've put them and have a look... >> > > I recall that the 520ST external drive was a piece of plastic > garbage. That it used a rack-and-pinion positioning mechanism > wouldn't surprise me. My only use for one was the cable with the > strange DIN connector. I used it to hook up an extrnal box with two > NEC HH 720K drives and tossed the ST drive box into the trash. > > --Chuck > > From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 19 18:33:16 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 18:33:16 -0500 Subject: PC Keyboard to serial adapter... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAE1BBC.8090109@jbrain.com> On 4/19/2011 2:45 PM, JP Hindin wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> One item I've needed on several occasions was an ASCII keyboard (TTL or RS-323 levels) for a vintage system. While I do have a few Keytronic serial keyboards with TTL output - they are old and can be "flaky". >> >> I found a pair of products that convert a standard PS/2 keyboard to RS-232 ASCII output (and can be modified for TTL). In addition, the vendor was very cooperative about modifying his product to meet the needs of those of us in the vintage computer community. > Our own Jim Brain has such a product. I personally use it on my Vector > Graphic and can verify it works perfectly. > > - JP More information: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2008-December/266326.html Since that time, I believe I have fixed the LEDs issue, but can verify. jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 19 18:40:19 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 16:40:19 -0700 Subject: ebay: Burroughs/Unisys B26 CPU $0.99 In-Reply-To: <4DAE1A97.3030505@jwsss.com> References: <4DAE1A97.3030505@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4DAE1D63.50403@bitsavers.org> On 4/19/11 4:28 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > Worse is that all the parts are in separate auctions. This guy has been posting this stuff for months. The only useful system is the $250 one that actually has the disk with software on it. You need a bunch of things he hasn't been listing. And, all of his shipping prices are too high. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 19 18:48:59 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 16:48:59 -0700 Subject: ebay: Burroughs/Unisys B26 CPU $0.99 In-Reply-To: <4DAE1A97.3030505@jwsss.com> References: <4DAE1A97.3030505@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4DAE1F6B.70803@jwsss.com> On 4/19/2011 4:28 PM, Jim Stephens wrote: > On 4/19/2011 4:09 PM, Richard wrote: >> Not sure if this is a complete unit or not, but perhaps for $0.99 >> some Burroughs collector is interested. >> >> ebay item # 280661231045 >> > Worse is that all the parts are in separate auctions. Pitty the > person who wants it to work and doesn't win all the auctions. > > is this like the Convergent Technology boxes? I forget what is > involved in this system. > Jim > > never mind, the power brick auction refers to it as a Convergent power brick. the new ebay charge structure kicked in, and that may be why the shipping costs are so high, don't know. Jim From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Apr 19 18:51:51 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 19:51:51 -0400 Subject: PC Keyboard to serial adapter... In-Reply-To: <4DAE1BBC.8090109@jbrain.com> References: <4DAE1BBC.8090109@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4DAE2017.9040708@verizon.net> On 4/19/2011 7:33 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > - JP > More information: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2008-December/266326.html > > Since that time, I believe I have fixed the LEDs issue, but can verify. > > jim > > Hey Jim, We missed you last weekend! Keith From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Apr 19 18:57:02 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 19:57:02 -0400 Subject: ASR 33 - question about powering reader In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201104192357.p3JNvJng096457@billY.EZWIND.NET> > > > > I don't have one of these installed, as I have no base: > > http://www.pdp8.net/asr33/pics/old_rdr_power.shtml > > > > I believe that reader mod or no, I need to have power to the reader. > >Yes, you do.If you don't ahve the reader PSU connectoed, I think the >reader trip coil will still work, the transmit clutch will engage and >the distributor will spin, but the reader itself will do nothing. > >I've not looked at your pictures, do you have a free cable coming out of >the Model 33 ending i na 15 pin socket to connect to the reader PSU? I got a power supply, will send an update asap. Here's to wishful thinking. I spent about 2 hours with a teletype technician yesterday, went through the whole thing. I will plug the 15 pin molex connector into the power supply for the reader, and the other two leads into pins 4 and 6 of the pdp 11 cable. Bill From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 19 19:09:34 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 19:09:34 -0500 Subject: PC Keyboard to serial adapter... In-Reply-To: <4DAE2017.9040708@verizon.net> References: <4DAE1BBC.8090109@jbrain.com> <4DAE2017.9040708@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DAE243E.8040406@jbrain.com> On 4/19/2011 6:51 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > > Hey Jim, > > We missed you last weekend! > > Keith I hope you all hacked something interesting in my absence! Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 19 19:39:56 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 19:39:56 -0500 Subject: PC Keyboard to serial adapter... In-Reply-To: <4DAE1BBC.8090109@jbrain.com> References: <4DAE1BBC.8090109@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4DAE2B5C.2080004@jbrain.com> On 4/19/2011 6:33 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2008-December/266326.html > > Since that time, I believe I have fixed the LEDs issue, but can verify. > > jim > > One advantage of my unit is that all configuration is done via the PS/2 keyboard (Ctrl-Alt-BS puts the unit in programming mode). As well, it has parallel output as well as serial. If demand warrants, I can create a USB version. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 19 22:06:39 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:06:39 -0600 Subject: ebay: Burroughs/Unisys B26 CPU $0.99 In-Reply-To: <4DAE19EE.7060804@bitsavers.org> References: <4DAE19EE.7060804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4DAE19EE.7060804 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 4/19/11 4:09 PM, Richard wrote: > > but perhaps for $0.99 > > look at the shipping price. Since I'm unfamiliar with the equipment, I don't know if $52 is reasonable for the shipping. Without anything else in the picture, I can't judge the scale and I certainly have no idea what it weighs. If its large and ~50lbs then the shipping seems reasonable. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 19 22:47:18 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:47:18 -0700 Subject: Avogadro's number In-Reply-To: References: <4DAD995F.7090005@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Apr 19, 11 03:17:03 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 2:07 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Avogadro's number > > > That's a **LOT** of floppy drives......wonder how long a mole of > floppy > > cables would be if laid end to end...... > > I've guessed they're 0.5m long each (seems about right). > > In which case I calculate (or rather my HP48 calculates) that a mole > of > them would br about 32 million lightyears long... > Thus requiring a "Hitchhiker's Garage to the Galaxy" to store them. From g-wright at att.net Tue Apr 19 23:59:36 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 21:59:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay: Burroughs/Unisys B26 CPU $0.99 In-Reply-To: <4DAE1D63.50403@bitsavers.org> References: <4DAE1A97.3030505@jwsss.com> <4DAE1D63.50403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <476405.82214.qm@web83806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I asked for a list of what they had and here's the response. This was last year before the shipping was high I did get a power supply and cable but then the shipping went through the roof. - Jerry 10/12/2010 I have in inventory: (8) B26 CPU?s with 256K of memory $300 each w/512K Ram (11)B25-256K Ram Module @ $50/each (1) B26-M4 Disk module with Seagate ST251 hard and 5-1/4 inch Floppy Drive. $300 each (4) B26-M4 Disk modules without hard drives $200 each (3) B25-D1 Monitors $100 each (7) B25-Keyboards $75 each (8) B25-PS Power Brick $35 each (9) B25 Power Brick Flat Cable $13 each (1) B28-1MB Memory Module $120 (2) B25-TS Tape Cartridge Backup Module $300 each (10 free 60MB tapes incl.) Also in the Software catagory I have in almost NEW condition: (1) B26 BTOS 8.1 Standalone Operating System Installation Manual & Disks $600 (1) B26 BTOS 8.1 Multiuser Operating System Installation Manual & Disks $500 (1) B28 BTOS 8.0 Multiuser Operating System Installation, (2)Disks $400 (1) 12011399 BTOS 6.1.1 Sys Tape Streamer Installation Manual & Disks $200 (1) 1212974 BTOS Tape Streamer Operation Manual & Programming Guide $100 (1) BTOS Tape Streamer 2.0 Installation Manual & Disks $100 (1) BTOS ISAM 6.0 Reference Manual & Disks $200 (2) B26/B28/B27 System Diagnostics including Diskettes & RS232 Terminators $50/each (1) B20 MS-DOS 2.0 operating system manual #1166394 $20 (1) B25 Systems Tape Cartridge 5.0 Operations Guide #1182201 $30 Shipping charges would be added to all of the items with insurance optional. All items above are functional as shipped, however I am selling AS IS, NO RETURNS. I am available for technical support as I am experienced in maintaining these units since 1982. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Apr 20 00:10:55 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 22:10:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay: Burroughs/Unisys B26 CPU $0.99 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <979381.20890.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 4/19/11, Richard wrote: > > Since I'm unfamiliar with the equipment, I don't know if > $52 is > reasonable for the shipping.? Without anything else in > the picture, I > can't judge the scale and I certainly have no idea what it > weighs. > If its large and ~50lbs then the shipping seems > reasonable. Yeah, that box is the size of an external 5 1/4" floppy drive, and weighs only slightly more. The power supply is external (and not included). More units would plug together on either side - one of which is a 5 1/4" floppy drive. I've had pieces of this kind of system before, but never enough to actually turn it on. Everything is modular, and it never stays together. -Ian From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Apr 20 00:52:19 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 06:52:19 +0100 Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: References: <3D2C8796B61E4AB1861641B38023871F@RODSDEVSYSTEM> from "RodSmallwood" at Apr 19, 11 07:05:04 am Message-ID: Thanks for the comments. There appear to be two issues arising from this. Firstly on/off keying versus FSK. I did say voice not FSK as the comparison so I maintain that is still fair comment. As to learning morse. It splits into two parts. Firstly learning the code and secondly what speed you wish to send/receive at. I absolutely hate high speed morse. The amateur bands at weekends are filled with contest stations sending at silly speeds. All contests should be limited to 12wpm. Any faster and instant disqualification. ? Rod Smallwood G8DGR ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 19 April 2011 21:57 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... > > > I use Morse on a daily basis and am completely self taught (over 50years > ago). I don't think it=92s an "I can/can't do it situation." Learning it = > is > another matter. If you can't pick it up yourself then find somebody > qualified to teach you. Secveral people have tried with me -- and given up. You are welcome to try. > After all, the military and commercial shipping used to train thousands = > of > 20wpm morse operators. Provided you are not visually and or aurally = Do you know that they had a 100% success rate? Otherwise, all that shows is that they had enough applicants to be able to find sufficient people who could handle morse. > impaired > (I am partially both and still have no problems) then CW is for you. > > Why use CW? That=92s the easy one. It will always get through where = > voice will > not. =20 That, IMHO, is incorrect. Firstly, it's obvious that there are times when no signal is received (or there's so much noise that the wnated signal can't be found, or...). In that case morse won't 'get through' (nor will voice, of course). So to say that morse will 'always get throguh when voice will not' is nonsense Seconmly, I am pretty sure that fsk gives a better perfomrance than on-off keying aundr almost all circumstances. And that there are plenty of better error correcting schemes than morse. So, no, CW morse is not optimal in any respsect. If you enjoy using morse, fine. I will be the first to defend your right to do so. But I still feel it was correct that it was removed from the licensing exams. The purpose of the license is to ensure that you are able to desing/build/opeate a transmitter without causing harmful interfernece to others (in much the same way that a driving test is to ensure you can cotnro la motor vehicle on the public highway without being a danger to yourself or other road users). The amatuur exam is not, and should not, be a way of saying 'I'm a better ham than you are'. That can be decied later. -tony From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 12:40:39 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:40:39 -0400 Subject: DEC M8043 (DLVJ1-M) Configuration help? In-Reply-To: <8CDCC993945661A-1444-4DA3A@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDCC993945661A-1444-4DA3A@webmail-m081.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: BitSavers was the first place I looked. And yes, I do agree that some stuff is tucked away into documents that seem wholly unrelated. Like the DLVJ1 settings; I would never have guessed it would have been in *that* manual. Mostly because the name hints that the manual is just a list (with some descriptions) of peripherals for QBUS systems (and that is, what it is, really; with more stuff as well). Thank you for the offer of assistance. I might just take you up on your offer (as I'm probably going to rejumper the speed control block, just so that it gives me speed where I need it). Thank you for the help. -- C. M. Gauger-Cosgrove On 19 April 2011 07:08, wrote: > > > > You can find alot of documentation on the bitsavers website, > though some of what you need is hidden away inside other documents. > > The configuration settings you need can be found here - > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EK-192AA-MG-001_Microsystems_Options_Oct88.pdf > > > It's been years since I've messed with a DLV11-J, > but if you have any issues, let me know, and I'll see if I can walk you through it. > > > > > T > From pietrovigno at hotmail.com Tue Apr 19 14:05:26 2011 From: pietrovigno at hotmail.com (Pietro Vigno) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 19:05:26 +0000 Subject: Please need your help 2003 actual answer for Power Sentry HUB Message-ID: Hi Vintage Your quote : Ok, next question, I need the power supply specs for the Power Sentry USB hub. I opened it up to try to determine what it wants but am not savvy enough I guess. It has a 278R05 voltage regulator on it (listed here: http://www.lekwong.com/product_infor.htm#ic04 but no specs) but I have no data for it. What was your finding at the time for actual voltage of Power Sentry Hub a long long time ago? I have currenlty exact same question. I would appreciate answer. Thank you very much uin advance From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Tue Apr 19 14:12:20 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:12:20 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... Message-ID: <4DADA654020000E40001DB52@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> The MS11-JP has only five DIP switches which set the starting address ... nothing about parity in the manual I pulled from bitsavers. I believe the parity control card is just an option, but not required (this machine was used for years with three memory cards but never a parity card: it had three RK-05's and ran RT-11). There is an M9302 terminator in slot 9AB (end of the run). Originally the 9302 was in an RK-05 controller backplane on the system (removed that, so slot 9 is now the end). Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 >>> Paul Anderson 04/19/11 3:02 PM >>> Hi Mark, I don't remember what the difference would be, but I seem to recall the MS11-JP might have a parity enable/disable switch on it. The parity control card is seperate, and you did not mention it. Also, do you have a M9302 terminator? Good Luck, Paul On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 7:44 PM, Mark Csele wrote: > Well, a few more bizarre things to report: > > I tried to disable interrupt sources as suggested. The only one, apparently, was the DL11-W SLU/LTC card which was set for both functions. The card was reconfigured to be "SLU Only". No change in behaviour. The DL11-W console is set for address 177560, vector 60. > > Next, there are three memory cards: one M7847-DJ (16K*18 MOS, MS11-JP), one "Motorola memory systems" card with 48K words, and one "MOSTEK memory systems" card with 96K words. Both the two later cards use 4116 DRAM chips. > > Tried to use the M7847-DJ card alone (after all, RT-11SJ should run on 16KW of memory). Reconfigured the card address to start at 0 and verified that it occupies addresses 000000 to 077777 via the front panel. When the machine it turned on, the display reads "054207" (this was not expected). Tried booting using the bootstrap on the M9301-YB card: the heads don't engage at all and the program halts rapidly displaying "173764" ... BIZARRE since that is a non-existent address. > > Next, tried the Motorola memory card which was already configured to start at 0. When the CPU is powered-on, displays "000002" on the display. Tried to boot the disk, heads engage, a few steps of the disk heads, and halts again at "005134". > > Finally, tried the MOSTEK memory card. Reconfigured to start at 0, and verified that addresses 000000 through 377777 are occupied by RAM. Powers up with a display of 000002 and halts at 005134 when a boot is attempted. > > The system is now stripped during testing, consisting of the following: > Slot 1/2 = CPU, Slot 3=M7859 Panel interface and M9301-YB bootstrap/terminator, Slot 4=memory, slot 5&6&7 empty (with a grant continuity card in D), slot 8=M7856 SLU/LTC, slot 9=M9302 at the unibus end and M7846 RX-01 interface. > > Originally, had three memory cards in slots 4&5&6. > > Now I'm just puzzled. > > Question: Should the unit power-up with "000002"? > > As I was typing this, had a thought about slots: I recall reading something about not putting memory into slot 9. So, I moved the RX-01 controller to slot 6 (and moved the grant card in slot 9D). Now, when powered-up with the Motorola or Mostek memory cards, displays "000000" but otherwise no changes in booting behaviour. When the MS11-JP RAM was installed instead, displays "177777" once, "163776" the next time (when powered up), and still absolutely nothing when boot is attempted (i.e. no heads engaging at all). > > Is there something about RT-11 5.04 that I am not aware-of? An it was suggested that there is a difference between the Unibus and Q-Bus boot ... any thoughts on that one? > > I can't see memory being the issue anyway: sure, 16KW might be an issue (and that card might even be 'flaky'), but the other two cards are large enough. > > I suppose I could try an older copy of RT-11 however 5.04 is the only one I currently have which also has DX.SYS and DU.SYS drivers (allowing me to make a bootable copy on my LSI-11 system which has an MSCP drive ... I believe previous versions of RT-11 lacked MSCP "DU" device support?). > > Cheers! Mark > >>> >>> Thanks for the suggestions so far. I tried a few things with the = >>> following to report: >>> >>> I verified the copy of RT-11 on RX-01 floppy. It boots fine on the LSI-11 = >>> system it was built on, tried "BOOT RT11SJ" as well as with the "/FOREIGN" = >>> option and it ran fine on that system (which has an M7946 controller). = >>> The drive is configured for RX-01 mode only (since these are the only = >>> controllers I have in both Q-Bus and Unibus flavour). >>> >>> Now, put that same drive on the 11/34 CPU with an M7846 card. Checked the = >>> CPU carefully: NPG jumpers are all intact on the backplane (CA1-CA2) and = >>> all unused slot D's have a grant continuity card. Just to ensure it works = >>> I reconfigured the console for 9600 baud (originally 300) and ran a simple = >>> "echo" program loaded at 001000 which runs fine (so it can store programs = >>> in memory and the execute them). The system has loads of memory - three = >>> cards with 16K, 48KW, and 96kW on them - so I did a quick check at = >>> locations 100000 and 700000 and memory is certainly there. > >>Some random thoughts > >>What devices do you have in the 11/34 system? An RX11, obviously. A >>DL11-something (but what?) for the console port. Anything else? > >>Obviously the console and the RX11 must be at the right I/O addresses for >>the system to get as far as it has. What about the interrupt vector >>settings? Are those correct. Could it be falling over when it enables >>interrupts on some device, the interurpt comes along and the vector is >>not what's expected so it goes to thw wrong routine. > >>You have an M9301 at the CPU end of the bus. What, if any, terminator do >>you have at the other end? Unibus (unlike Q-bus, normally) is terminated >>at both ends. > >>Could it be a bad memory location? RT11SJ doesn't need much RAM to boot, >>so perhaps you could try yor memory boards one at a time, each one set to >>start at location 0, and see if that helps. > >>-tony > > > Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. > Niagara College, Canada > 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 > Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 > > (905) 735-2211 x.7629 > E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca > URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele > Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 > From nathan at nathanpralle.com Tue Apr 19 16:50:23 2011 From: nathan at nathanpralle.com (Nathan Pralle) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 16:50:23 -0500 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Richard wrote: On thinning: one way you can thin your collection is to remove a whole >> line of collecting. For instance, I have a few microcomputers that >> I've acquired that aren't exactly terminal or graphics related. >> (These are the two areas that I actively collect.) So for me, those >> would be the first things to go. This is something I've been thinking about a lot lately and I think Richard has the right idea -- eliminating entire lines or similar is an easier to way to delineate it. My biggest issue right now is that I *never* have time to mess around with my collection and, due to work and parenting duties, I do not forsee a time in the near future when I'll be able to get back to it, and by that time, I'll probably need the flexibility of NOT having the huge collection. So I want to eliminate all but a few choice or meaningful machines if possible. So....how do I get it whittled down to only a few machines? That is my ponderance. I have too much heart for these old systems and the knowledgebase to simply recycle them, but I live in the middle of nowhere, Iowa, which ensures that other interested peoples is pretty thin if existing at all. Anyone within driving distance that wants to bring a trailer and have a free-for-all? :) It's something for us all to ponder -- at some point, each of us will want to divest our collections in one fashion or another. I'm pretty sure there's a right and a wrong way about it, it's just a matter of figuring it out. Nathan From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 20 01:28:26 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 08:28:26 +0200 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> References: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: <20110420062826.GA14639@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 04:50:23PM -0500, Nathan Pralle wrote: > It's something for us all to ponder -- at some point, each of us > will want to divest our collections in one fashion or another. I'm > pretty sure there's a right and a wrong way about it, it's just a > matter of figuring it out. I think we have been down this road before, but... My wife asked me what to do with all my things (and I do have a lot) if I should pass away (I'm 30, maybe she is planning somthing :-). Well, all I could answer was "Let my local friends that also collect take their pick and toss the rest". What else could I ask from a widow? (Sorry if this turned to grim) /Pontus From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 20 01:28:59 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 00:28:59 -0600 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> References: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: In article <4DAE039F.8030608 at nathanpralle.com>, Nathan Pralle writes: > My biggest issue right now is that I *never* have time to mess around > with my collection [...] I've started a "make" group that meets down at my warehouse every Wednesday night from 7pm to 10pm. This forces me to be with my collection every week, but it also gives me a regular time that I use to organize my collection and work on the museum I'm trying to build. Part of that is building electronics projects that interface with the vintage equipment. (I'm working on the Tektronix 4010 printer interface right now.) Sometimes I'm just unpacking new acquisitions or organizing the storage. However, the key thing is to set aside some time in your schedule on a regular basis to keep making progress. If your collection resides in your home, then an hour or two once a week is sufficient to make progress. You could also pick one day a month, or whatever. Its like writing a book; the important part is to work on it regularly so that you're always making forward progress. If the other people in your life are reasonable they'll come to understand "oh yeah, on Tuesday nights, dad's always working on his vintage computers" and help you keep your own commitment to your hobby. > So....how do I get it whittled down to only a few machines? That is my > ponderance. I have too much heart for these old systems and the > knowledgebase to simply recycle them, but I live in the middle of > nowhere, Iowa, which ensures that other interested peoples is pretty > thin if existing at all. Well, its hard for us to help without knowing what you have. Because I collect terminals and graphics gear, I'm used to spending money on shipping. Both of these items tend to be heavy, large, or both. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 06:29:42 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: Final report: I have a 100% functional Lisa 2/5! Based on input from Ray Archelian, it appears that the disk I/O issues under the Office System were indeed a missing parity line. Must have been nicad battery "crud" wedged somewhere, since it started working again after giving the motherboard a lengthy soaking in dilute vinegar. Various intermittant keyboard and diskette issues were resolved with a replacement wiring harness. All the office tools are installed and I've been partying like it's 1984! The only lingering sour note is that I found myself banned from the Google Lisa list after making exactly three polite, on-topic posts regarding troubleshooting. Google does not identify the list owner nor does it provide any means to contact him/her. Is arbitrary heavy-handedness typical in that venue? At any rate, thank goodness for cctech, upon which I appear to still be worthy of posting :-). Steve -- From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 08:13:01 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:13:01 +0100 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On 20 April 2011 12:29, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Final report: > > I have a 100% functional Lisa 2/5! ?Based on input from Ray Archelian, it > appears that the disk I/O issues under the Office System were indeed a > missing parity line. ?Must have been nicad battery "crud" wedged somewhere, > since it started working again after giving the motherboard a lengthy > soaking in dilute vinegar. ?Various intermittant keyboard and diskette > issues were resolved with a replacement wiring harness. > > All the office tools are installed and I've been partying like it's 1984! > > The only lingering sour note is that I found myself banned from the Google > Lisa list after making exactly three polite, on-topic posts regarding > troubleshooting. ?Google does not identify the list owner nor does it > provide any means to contact him/her. ?Is arbitrary heavy-handedness typical > in that venue? > > At any rate, thank goodness for cctech, upon which I appear to still be > worthy of posting :-). Glad to hear it! FWIW, I got banned from the LowEndMac Mac lists - all of them - for pointing out to an American listmember that the "North American English" update for an elderly version of MacOS might not be correct for all English-speaking Mac users, and that there were also "International English" and "UK English" versions for those of us who invented the language. A very minor, no-more-than-warm flamewar erupted and I got kicked. Meanwhile, the excellent and stimulating Ubuntu Sounder mailing list has just today been closed down altogether for the crime of wandering offtopic. Some lists are really, *really* touchy... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 20 08:25:30 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 06:25:30 -0700 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4DAEDECA.6030402@bitsavers.org> On 4/20/11 6:13 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > FWIW, I got banned from the LowEndMac Mac lists - all of them - for > pointing out to an American listmember that the "North American > English" update for an elderly version of MacOS might not be correct > for all English-speaking Mac users I was banned from Vintage Macs for saying that I did not want to have any contact with John Musbach (aka "Hexstar"). That thread is the first thing that pops up when you do a Google Groups search for "Al Kossow" :-( From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 08:51:19 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 14:51:19 +0100 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: <4DAEDECA.6030402@bitsavers.org> References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> <4DAEDECA.6030402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 20 April 2011 14:25, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/20/11 6:13 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> FWIW, I got banned from the LowEndMac Mac lists - all of them - for >> pointing out to an American listmember that the "North American >> English" update for an elderly version of MacOS might not be correct >> for all English-speaking Mac users > > I was banned from Vintage Macs for saying that I did not want to > have any contact with John Musbach (aka "Hexstar"). > > That thread is the first thing that pops up when you do a Google Groups > search for "Al Kossow" :-( Ouch! So it is. :?( Dare I ask - what happened? -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Apr 20 09:10:43 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:10:43 -0400 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: <4DAEDECA.6030402@bitsavers.org> References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> <4DAEDECA.6030402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DAEE963.202@verizon.net> On 4/20/2011 9:25 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > That thread is the first thing that pops up when you do a Google Groups > search for "Al Kossow" :-( Of course I had to take the bait. Do you find it strange that most of the hits for that search are people looking for you? Even going back to 2005, 2009, and other dates, there's quite a few of "pinging Al", or "are you there Al?", and so on. Do you routinely ignore people's emails or something? :) Keith From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 20 09:13:34 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 09:13:34 -0500 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> References: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: <201104201418.p3KEHwjs022165@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:50 PM 4/19/2011, Nathan Pralle wrote: >So....how do I get it whittled down to only a few machines? That is my ponderance. I have too much heart for these old systems and the knowledgebase to simply recycle them, but I live in the middle of nowhere, Iowa, which ensures that other interested peoples is pretty thin if existing at all. Anyone within driving distance that wants to bring a trailer and have a free-for-all? :) Although I do visit just down the road from you to Manchester, IA, once a year or so, I'm suffering the same problem. Having decreasing spare time combined with the packrat urge to save the pieces, you end up with a pile that it probably not perfectly organized, so it would take even more time to find what you need when you want it. I think specialization helps. I am not convinced that having a lot of space helps. - John From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed Apr 20 09:33:40 2011 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:33:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: <201104201418.p3KEHwjs022165@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <271117.14229.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/20/11, John Foust wrote: >I think specialization > helps.? I am not convinced > that having a lot of space helps.? Agreed. Moreover, having a lot of space plus a specialized approach to collecting together ensure that you don't fill the space you have with devices that you never get around to working on. -Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 20 09:39:29 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:39:29 -0700 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: <4DAEE963.202@verizon.net> References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> <4DAEDECA.6030402@bitsavers.org> <4DAEE963.202@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DAEF021.2030904@bitsavers.org> On 4/20/11 7:10 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > On 4/20/2011 9:25 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> That thread is the first thing that pops up when you do a Google Groups >> search for "Al Kossow" :-( > > Of course I had to take the bait. Do you find it strange that most of the hits for that search are people looking for you? Even going back to 2005, 2009, and other dates, there's quite a few of > "pinging Al", or "are you there Al?", and so on. > > Do you routinely ignore people's emails or something? :) > Most of that was from when I dropped out of video game collecting. Google Groups has made it easier for me to keep an eye on when people are looking for me on mailing lists. I also use it to watch for people looking for something and not being able to find it on bitsavers. Many times it 'mysteriously' appears there a day or two after the request. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 20 09:41:26 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:41:26 -0700 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: References: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> Message-ID: At 12:28 AM -0600 4/20/11, Richard wrote: >However, the key thing is to set aside some time in your schedule on a >regular basis to keep making progress. If your collection resides in >your home, then an hour or two once a week is sufficient to make >progress. You could also pick one day a month, or whatever. Its like >writing a book; the important part is to work on it regularly so that >you're always making forward progress. My problem is that my time is divided between work, family and photography now days. Any time for computers means taking time away from my photography. As I have several major photography projects I'm working on, photography wins hands down. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 20 09:43:46 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:43:46 -0700 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: <201104201418.p3KEHwjs022165@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> <201104201418.p3KEHwjs022165@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: At 9:13 AM -0500 4/20/11, John Foust wrote: >or so, I'm suffering the same problem. Having decreasing spare time combined >with the packrat urge to save the pieces, you end up with a pile >that it probably >not perfectly organized, so it would take even more time to find what >you need when you want it. I think specialization helps. I am not convinced >that having a lot of space helps. I don't think having a lot of space helps, as this is a destructive hobby that tends to fill all available space. It is a hobby that encourages packrat behavior, and trying to break that behavior is very difficult. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Apr 20 09:45:03 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <542057.23781.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/20/11, Zane H. Healy wrote: > My problem is that my time is divided between work, family > and > photography now days. Any time for computers means > taking time away > from my photography. As I have several major > photography projects > I'm working on, photography wins hands down. You can combine the two. Just take pictures of the computers. Of course, you'll want to fix them up before taking pictures... -Ian From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 20 09:49:55 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: <271117.14229.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from David Comley at "Apr 20, 11 07:33:40 am" Message-ID: <201104201449.p3KEnt3R014240@floodgap.com> > Moreover, having a lot of space plus a specialized approach to collecting > together ensure that you don't fill the space you have with devices that > you never get around to working on. BTDT. Result: no. :P -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A dean is to faculty as a hydrant is to a dog. -- Alfred Kahn -------------- From trag at io.com Wed Apr 20 09:53:53 2011 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 09:53:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Free Stuff in Albany/Richmond, CA, Wednesday Only In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I saw this posting over on the Apple 2 Marketplace. It looks like Albany Microcomputer Services is cleaning out their shop. Jeff Walther From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 20 09:38:36 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 07:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: <4DAEF021.2030904@bitsavers.org> References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com> <4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> <4DAEDECA.6030402@bitsavers.org> <4DAEE963.202@verizon.net> <4DAEF021.2030904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Apr 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/20/11 7:10 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> On 4/20/2011 9:25 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> That thread is the first thing that pops up when you do a Google Groups >>> search for "Al Kossow" :-( >> >> Of course I had to take the bait. Do you find it strange that most of the >> hits for that search are people looking for you? Even going back to 2005, >> 2009, and other dates, there's quite a few of >> "pinging Al", or "are you there Al?", and so on. >> >> Do you routinely ignore people's emails or something? :) >> > > Most of that was from when I dropped out of video game collecting. > > Google Groups has made it easier for me to keep an eye on when people are > looking for > me on mailing lists. I also use it to watch for people looking for something > and not > being able to find it on bitsavers. Many times it 'mysteriously' appears > there a day > or two after the request. So basically, you channel Kibo. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 20 10:00:23 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:00:23 +0200 Subject: Free Stuff in Albany/Richmond, CA, Wednesday Only In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110420150023.GA20738@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 09:53:53AM -0500, Jeff Walther wrote: > I saw this posting over on the Apple 2 Marketplace. > > > > It looks like Albany Microcomputer Services is cleaning out their shop. > > Jeff Walther > > Before you get all to worked up about it, there is already a lot of takers: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?24945-FREE-Vintage-computers /P From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Apr 20 10:07:45 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:07:45 -0400 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon Message-ID: <4DAEF6C1.2000008@verizon.net> So I attended Notacon, and some people may be interested to know that there was a Lisa there brought by the CMU Computer Club. They hacked together a demo on it, which was pretty decent given the clock speed, etc. They claim "first lisa demo ever." --- you know how that goes around here! :) The demo concluded with the apple logo in COLOR, which they did by translating the brightness-level information into color on the FPGA board. They used an fpga development board to bring digital video signals in off the chips, and frame buffer it and output to an HDMI output port. They didn't actually scan convert it, but left it at its native resolution, which was something weird. Like 700 x 300 or something? (quick google says 720 x 364) When pushing them for more answers on details of their hacked together video solution, and ideas for scan converting --- they clammed up, and said that since they will be offering a commercial product at some point in the future, they couldn't talk about it. Weren't going to document it publicly, post it online, etc. I suppose it's not too surprising that college kids don't understand the difference between raw ideas & prototyping vs executing and marketing an actual product. I just found it disappointing that it happened at a place where the fundamental point of getting together is to share information. I guess they consider sharing a one-way street. Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 11:04:27 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:04:27 -0300 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon References: <4DAEF6C1.2000008@verizon.net> Message-ID: > When pushing them for more answers on details of their hacked together > video solution, and ideas for scan converting --- they clammed up, and > said that since they will be offering a commercial product at some point > in the future, they couldn't talk about it. Weren't going to document it > publicly, post it online, etc. I doubt that someone with some fpga experience like Phillip Pemberton would take more than half a day to create something like this...Why worry? They will launch it on the market and on the next day, a page with a cheap (say: Free) replacement will pop up on hack-a-day. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Apr 20 11:44:23 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:44:23 -0400 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon Message-ID: > When pushing them for more answers on details of their hacked together > video solution, and ideas for scan converting --- they clammed up, and > said that since they will be offering a commercial product at some point > in the future, they couldn't talk about it. Weren't going to document > it publicly, post it online, etc. Did I read that right? A commercial FPGA Lisa implementation in the future? Or a commercial scan converter? Tim. From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Apr 20 11:47:05 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:47:05 -0400 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DAF0E09.9000801@verizon.net> On 4/20/2011 12:44 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Did I read that right? A commercial FPGA Lisa implementation in the future? > > Or a commercial scan converter? > > Tim. Commercial scan converter that supports a few old school video inputs. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Apr 20 11:50:05 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 12:50:05 -0400 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: <4DAEF6C1.2000008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DAF0EBD.6060501@verizon.net> On 4/20/2011 12:04 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> When pushing them for more answers on details of their hacked together >> video solution, and ideas for scan converting --- they clammed up, and >> said that since they will be offering a commercial product at some >> point in the future, they couldn't talk about it. Weren't going to >> document it publicly, post it online, etc. > > I doubt that someone with some fpga experience like Phillip Pemberton > would take more than half a day to create something like this...Why > worry? They will launch it on the market and on the next day, a page > with a cheap (say: Free) replacement will pop up on hack-a-day. I'm most definitely going to document any of my efforts online with code, references, etc. I was interested and talking about it because I've just been messing around with creating (for myself) a small amiga scan converter. Somewhat practical exercise to increase my understanding of hardware design and fpga's. Keith From alanp at snowmoose.com Wed Apr 20 12:12:50 2011 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:12:50 -0700 Subject: ebay: Burroughs/Unisys B26 CPU $0.99 Message-ID: <4DAF1412.5010506@snowmoose.com> I got rid of a large quantity of B2x hardware maybe three years ago. Three CPU slices. Disk slices. Floppy slices. Monitors. Keyboards. Power bricks. Sadly no software (which seems to be the norm - wish I had known - I would have stashed away some copies with me when I left Burroughs/Unisys). I looked all over for a collector to give them to, but found no takers. I eventually put them up on eBay, where the whole lot went for $5 (plus $100+ for actual shipping costs). alan From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Apr 20 12:21:06 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:21:06 -0400 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Commercial scan converter that supports a few old school video inputs. It's hard for me to think of as "secret" or "proprietary" an adjustment that was made by a trimpot on a analog TV/CRT and probably even brought out to the front panel (maybe hidden by a little door). So maybe there is some generational difference. Someday a young automotive engineer will, I don't doubt, reinvent the manual choke on the dash and think it's something new :-) Tim. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 20 12:35:12 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:35:12 +0200 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110420173512.GA7955@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 01:21:06PM -0400, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Someday a young automotive engineer will, I don't doubt, reinvent > the manual choke on the dash and think it's something new :-) Someday a young computer scientist will figure out a way to run cloud apps natively and offline! :-) /P From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 20 12:39:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 18:39:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Building a shortwave/HAM radio station... In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 20, 11 06:52:19 am Message-ID: > > > Thanks for the comments. There appear to be two issues arising from = > this. > Firstly on/off keying versus FSK. I did say voice not FSK as the = > comparison > so I maintain that is still fair comment.=20 If voice and on/off keyed morse were the only modes allowed on amateur radio, then I would agree with you. But they're not. So I think my comment stants. There is no particular reason to single out one mode as being required ot get a particular class of license. Particularly when that mode is not optimal in any respect. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 20 13:04:07 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:04:07 +0100 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: <4DAEF6C1.2000008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DAF2017.3000105@philpem.me.uk> On 20/04/11 17:04, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I doubt that someone with some fpga experience like Phillip Pemberton > would take more than half a day to create something like this... I'll take that bet! Now who wants to buy me a Lisa, a bunch of connectors and a copy of the Lisa equivalent of the Apple ][ Red Book? :) What I'd really like to do is an FPGA reimplementation of the AT&T 3B1. That would be cool. Might also help me find the last few memory protection bugs which are breaking the diagnostics. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 20 15:25:55 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <20110420173512.GA7955@Update.UU.SE> from Pontus Pihlgren at "Apr 20, 11 07:35:12 pm" Message-ID: <201104202025.p3KKPtZH011552@floodgap.com> > > Someday a young automotive engineer will, I don't doubt, reinvent > > the manual choke on the dash and think it's something new :-) > > Someday a young computer scientist will figure out a way to run cloud > apps natively and offline! They will call it ... A PERSONAL COMPUTER. It'll never sell, though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I don't think so," said Descartes, and he vanished. ----------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 20 15:26:42 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <4DAF2017.3000105@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Apr 20, 11 07:04:07 pm" Message-ID: <201104202026.p3KKQgpR013750@floodgap.com> > What I'd really like to do is an FPGA reimplementation of the AT&T 3B1. > That would be cool. Might also help me find the last few memory > protection bugs which are breaking the diagnostics. I would be your first customer. I've always wanted to play with a 3B1, even a facsimile. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Anything that can be put into a nutshell belongs there. -- F. G. Brauer ---- From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 20 15:42:51 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: <4DAEF6C1.2000008@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110420134039.V33565@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 20 Apr 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I doubt that someone with some fpga experience like Phillip Pemberton > would take more than half a day to create something like this...Why worry? > They will launch it on the market and on the next day, a page with a cheap > (say: Free) replacement will pop up on hack-a-day. And, when they try to market it with "first Lisa demo EVER", being 28 years late, they lose a bit of credibility. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 20 15:58:01 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 21:58:01 +0100 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <201104202025.p3KKPtZH011552@floodgap.com> References: <201104202025.p3KKPtZH011552@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DAF48D9.9010704@philpem.me.uk> On 20/04/11 21:25, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > They will call it ... > > A PERSONAL COMPUTER. > > It'll never sell, though. Everyone knows there's a worldwide market for what, maybe a dozen of those? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 20 16:04:41 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 22:04:41 +0100 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <201104202026.p3KKQgpR013750@floodgap.com> References: <201104202026.p3KKQgpR013750@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DAF4A69.70804@philpem.me.uk> On 20/04/11 21:26, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> What I'd really like to do is an FPGA reimplementation of the AT&T 3B1. >> That would be cool. Might also help me find the last few memory >> protection bugs which are breaking the diagnostics. > > I would be your first customer. I've always wanted to play with a 3B1, even > a facsimile. Which is part of the reason I'm working on FreeBee (aka 3b1emu). Like said though -- finding those bugs would involve dropping a logic analyser on the system bus, kicking off the memory protection tests, then comparing the state dump against the debug output from my emulator. It does pass the MAP RAM, VRAM and MAIN RAM tests, though. About the only thing it fails is (if memory serves) major 12, minor 1 -- page fault detection. I think I've got the rules for setting the page access bits slightly wrong. Understanding how the whole system fits together is a real pain when the schematics spread over ~15 A4 pages, plus the PAL equations and gate array schematics. And I'd still love a copy of the Field Service Debug PROMs (the monitor PROM would be VERY VERY nice) and some info on how the DMA Data Gate Array works... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 20 18:04:44 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 17:04:44 -0600 Subject: How to thin a collection... In-Reply-To: References: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com> <201104201418.p3KEHwjs022165@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > It is a hobby that > encourages packrat behavior, and trying to break that behavior is > very difficult. I agree, but watching a few episodes of "Hoarders" is a sufficient innoculation for me! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 19:20:48 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 20:20:48 -0400 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <201104202026.p3KKQgpR013750@floodgap.com> References: <201104202026.p3KKQgpR013750@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DAF7860.4010804@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> What I'd really like to do is an FPGA reimplementation of the AT&T 3B1. >> That would be cool. Might also help me find the last few memory >> protection bugs which are breaking the diagnostics. > > I would be your first customer. I've always wanted to play with a 3B1, even > a facsimile. Why would you need to do it in an FPGA? It's a 68k with fairly "standard" hardware. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 20 20:23:32 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 02:23:32 +0100 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <4DAF7860.4010804@gmail.com> References: <201104202026.p3KKQgpR013750@floodgap.com> <4DAF7860.4010804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DAF8714.4020104@philpem.me.uk> On 21/04/11 01:20, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I would be your first customer. I've always wanted to play with a 3B1, >> even >> a facsimile. > > Why would you need to do it in an FPGA? It's a 68k with fairly > "standard" hardware. Because the standard board is frickin' huge, a massive power hog and known to be a wee bit on the unreliable side. Drop the design into an FPGA and you go from several huge boards full of TTL to one Eurocard, an FPGA, and a couple of RAM chips. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 23:24:18 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 23:24:18 -0500 Subject: Where does one find small 4:3 LCD screens with composite or S-video input? (Ethan Dicks) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Ralph E. Dodd wrote: > 9.6 LCD Monitor > 800 x 600 Resolution > Brightness: 350 cd/m? > Contrast Ratio: 450:1 > Digital Comb Filter > 2 Watt + 2 Watt Audio System > Connections: 1 S-Video Inputs- 2 Composite Video Inputs- Headphone Jack- 2 Audio Inputs (for Composite/S-Video)- 4-in-1 Connection Given the 800x600 res, would there be a way to hack a VGA input onto the svideo line? Is that just a matter of a cable or will it require some fiddling with the signal? From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Wed Apr 20 07:32:47 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 08:32:47 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... Message-ID: <4DAE9A2F020000E40001DBA0@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> The original RAM configuration is outlined below. It was used this way, and booted just fine from RK-05's in days gone by. An M7847 with 16KW A Motorola board with 6 rows of 9 4116 chips (for a total of 48KW) A Mostek board with eight rows of 9 4116 chips (for a total of 64KW) The Motorola board was originally set to the lowest 48K, the M7847 after that, and the Mostek for the highest 64KW addresses ... I reconfigured when I checked these out (I lack the actual docs on the Motorola and Mostek boards but there are only eight DIP switches so it was easy enough to guess and just verify the range via the front panel ... bus error when a non-existent address is deposited). I think I goofed on the original size of the Mostek board ... it sports two banks of 4 rows by 9 of 4116 chips (64KBytes each bank). As for the RX11 interface (M7846), I could not find config info except for a photo of a board on the web (checked bitsavers but can't find that board). My jumpers are as follows: V2 V4 V5 V7 N1 A7 A8. All other jumpers are snipped off. Power Supply: after the long-term storage in the garage that was the first thing I checked. Once had a 5V supply put out 7V so I'm paranoid about that now! The 5V and +/- 15V supplies are all good. Cheers .... Mark Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 >>> Tony Duell 04/19/11 5:47 PM >>> > > Well, a few more bizarre things to report: > > I tried to disable interrupt sources as suggested. The only one, = > apparently, was the DL11-W SLU/LTC card which was set for both functions. = > The card was reconfigured to be "SLU Only". No change in behaviour. The = > DL11-W console is set for address 177560, vector 60. The console will geneate 2 iterrupt vectors (60 and 64 I think) for transmit and receive. They cannont be set separately, so if the DL11-W is working properly, that's OK. The RX11 will also generate interrupts. What's it set to? > > Next, there are three memory cards: one M7847-DJ (16K*18 MOS, MS11-JP), = > one "Motorola memory systems" card with 48K words, and one "MOSTEK memory = > systems" card with 96K words. Both the two later cards use 4116 DRAM = > chips. Hang on a second. You've got 16Kw + 48Kw + 96kw there. That's 160Kw total. The PDP11/34 (it is an 11/34 IRIC) has 18 bit addressing and can access a total of 128kw. 4Kw are used for the I/O space, so you have have a maximum of 124kw of memory (practically, most memory boards wil lautomatically disable themselves in the I/O space, so you could fit a pair of 64Kw boards, say,m without problems). But with your configuration you must have some locations addressing 2 boards, which is not a good thing. > > Tried to use the M7847-DJ card alone (after all, RT-11SJ should run on = > 16KW of memory). Reconfigured the card address to start at 0 and verified = > that it occupies addresses 000000 to 077777 via the front panel. When the = > machine it turned on, the display reads "054207" (this was not expected). = > Tried booting using the bootstrap on the M9301-YB card: the heads don't = > engage at all and the program halts rapidly displaying "173764" ... = > BIZARRE since that is a non-existent address. Is it? Remeebr the address show is the 16 bit program counter address. If the MMU is disabled (which it will be on power-up, and nothing is going to enable it), addresses starting 16 or 17 are mapped to the I/O space at 76 or 77. So that address is 773764. Which I think is in the bootstrap ROM. > > Next, tried the Motorola memory card which was already configured to start = > at 0. When the CPU is powered-on, displays "000002" on the display. = > Tried to boot the disk, heads engage, a few steps of the disk heads, and = > halts again at "005134". > > Finally, tried the MOSTEK memory card. Reconfigured to start at 0, and = > verified that addresses 000000 through 377777 are occupied by RAM. Powers = > up with a display of 000002 and halts at 005134 when a boot is attempted. > > The system is now stripped during testing, consisting of the following: > Slot 1/2 =3D CPU, Slot 3=3DM7859 Panel interface and M9301-YB bootstrap/ter= > minator, Slot 4=3Dmemory, slot 5&6&7 empty (with a grant continuity card = > in D), slot 8=3DM7856 SLU/LTC, slot 9=3DM9302 at the unibus end and M7846 = > RX-01 interface. That sounds OK. > As I was typing this, had a thought about slots: I recall reading = > something about not putting memory into slot 9. So, I moved the RX-01 = Yes, The reason is that memroy boards are MUD (Modified Unibus Device) boards and take their signals from connectors A,B (this matters on machines like the 11/44 which have a 22 bit address bus, and where the addres lines on A,B are not the same as those on E). Device controllers (SPCs -- Small Peripheral Controller) take their signals from C-F. On slot 9, the A/B conenctors are the Unibus output to the next backplane (or for a terminaotr) and are not qurie the same signals as the ones on an MUD slot. In fact I think on some machines you can short out a power rail by putting an MUD card in the Unibus Out slot or a termintor in an MUD slot. > controller to slot 6 (and moved the grant card in slot 9D). Now, when = > powered-up with the Motorola or Mostek memory cards, displays "000000" but = > otherwise no changes in booting behaviour. When the MS11-JP RAM was = > installed instead, displays "177777" once, "163776" the next time (when = > powered up), and still absolutely nothing when boot is attempted (i.e. no = > heads engaging at all). > > Is there something about RT-11 5.04 that I am not aware-of? An it was = > suggested that there is a difference between the Unibus and Q-Bus boot ... = > any thoughts on that one? =20 I've never heard of that being a problem... > > I can't see memory being the issue anyway: sure, 16KW might be an issue = > (and that card might even be 'flaky'), but the other two cards are large = > enough. Silly question... Whenever I hear of a PDP11 wit flaky memeory I think of the time I was led a merry dance by my 11/45. It turns out the problem ther was power supply related (one ofthe 5V lines was sitting at 4.4V). Have tyoy checked all the power supply voltages with the machine in operation? -tony From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Wed Apr 20 09:47:56 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 16:47:56 +0200 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... References: <4DAE9A2F020000E40001DBA0@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Message-ID: <00FDC673AF0C48EBB82D72DF60D1DB3D@Pc12> hello on bitsavers you can find the user manual of rx01 with lots of things about configuration, you now it?look in that directory http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rx01/ here I have a 11/34 working perfectly well,with rx01 I always heve been unable to boot rt11 v5 ,it boots perfectly well v4,I precise that all system disk were built ant tested on a lsi11 with rx01 (the same) and they all work ok with it but not the 34...mystery ,I have dropped to find the reason best regards,good luck a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Csele" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:32 PM Subject: Re: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... The original RAM configuration is outlined below. It was used this way, and booted just fine from RK-05's in days gone by. An M7847 with 16KW A Motorola board with 6 rows of 9 4116 chips (for a total of 48KW) A Mostek board with eight rows of 9 4116 chips (for a total of 64KW) The Motorola board was originally set to the lowest 48K, the M7847 after that, and the Mostek for the highest 64KW addresses ... I reconfigured when I checked these out (I lack the actual docs on the Motorola and Mostek boards but there are only eight DIP switches so it was easy enough to guess and just verify the range via the front panel ... bus error when a non-existent address is deposited). I think I goofed on the original size of the Mostek board ... it sports two banks of 4 rows by 9 of 4116 chips (64KBytes each bank). As for the RX11 interface (M7846), I could not find config info except for a photo of a board on the web (checked bitsavers but can't find that board). My jumpers are as follows: V2 V4 V5 V7 N1 A7 A8. All other jumpers are snipped off. Power Supply: after the long-term storage in the garage that was the first thing I checked. Once had a 5V supply put out 7V so I'm paranoid about that now! The 5V and +/- 15V supplies are all good. Cheers .... Mark Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 >>> Tony Duell 04/19/11 5:47 PM >>> > > Well, a few more bizarre things to report: > > I tried to disable interrupt sources as suggested. The only one, = > apparently, was the DL11-W SLU/LTC card which was set for both functions. > = > The card was reconfigured to be "SLU Only". No change in behaviour. The > = > DL11-W console is set for address 177560, vector 60. The console will geneate 2 iterrupt vectors (60 and 64 I think) for transmit and receive. They cannont be set separately, so if the DL11-W is working properly, that's OK. The RX11 will also generate interrupts. What's it set to? > > Next, there are three memory cards: one M7847-DJ (16K*18 MOS, MS11-JP), = > one "Motorola memory systems" card with 48K words, and one "MOSTEK memory > = > systems" card with 96K words. Both the two later cards use 4116 DRAM = > chips. Hang on a second. You've got 16Kw + 48Kw + 96kw there. That's 160Kw total. The PDP11/34 (it is an 11/34 IRIC) has 18 bit addressing and can access a total of 128kw. 4Kw are used for the I/O space, so you have have a maximum of 124kw of memory (practically, most memory boards wil lautomatically disable themselves in the I/O space, so you could fit a pair of 64Kw boards, say,m without problems). But with your configuration you must have some locations addressing 2 boards, which is not a good thing. > > Tried to use the M7847-DJ card alone (after all, RT-11SJ should run on = > 16KW of memory). Reconfigured the card address to start at 0 and verified > = > that it occupies addresses 000000 to 077777 via the front panel. When the > = > machine it turned on, the display reads "054207" (this was not expected). > = > Tried booting using the bootstrap on the M9301-YB card: the heads don't = > engage at all and the program halts rapidly displaying "173764" ... = > BIZARRE since that is a non-existent address. Is it? Remeebr the address show is the 16 bit program counter address. If the MMU is disabled (which it will be on power-up, and nothing is going to enable it), addresses starting 16 or 17 are mapped to the I/O space at 76 or 77. So that address is 773764. Which I think is in the bootstrap ROM. > > Next, tried the Motorola memory card which was already configured to start > = > at 0. When the CPU is powered-on, displays "000002" on the display. = > Tried to boot the disk, heads engage, a few steps of the disk heads, and = > halts again at "005134". > > Finally, tried the MOSTEK memory card. Reconfigured to start at 0, and = > verified that addresses 000000 through 377777 are occupied by RAM. Powers > = > up with a display of 000002 and halts at 005134 when a boot is attempted. > > The system is now stripped during testing, consisting of the following: > Slot 1/2 =3D CPU, Slot 3=3DM7859 Panel interface and M9301-YB > bootstrap/ter= > minator, Slot 4=3Dmemory, slot 5&6&7 empty (with a grant continuity card = > in D), slot 8=3DM7856 SLU/LTC, slot 9=3DM9302 at the unibus end and M7846 > = > RX-01 interface. That sounds OK. > As I was typing this, had a thought about slots: I recall reading = > something about not putting memory into slot 9. So, I moved the RX-01 = Yes, The reason is that memroy boards are MUD (Modified Unibus Device) boards and take their signals from connectors A,B (this matters on machines like the 11/44 which have a 22 bit address bus, and where the addres lines on A,B are not the same as those on E). Device controllers (SPCs -- Small Peripheral Controller) take their signals from C-F. On slot 9, the A/B conenctors are the Unibus output to the next backplane (or for a terminaotr) and are not qurie the same signals as the ones on an MUD slot. In fact I think on some machines you can short out a power rail by putting an MUD card in the Unibus Out slot or a termintor in an MUD slot. > controller to slot 6 (and moved the grant card in slot 9D). Now, when = > powered-up with the Motorola or Mostek memory cards, displays "000000" but > = > otherwise no changes in booting behaviour. When the MS11-JP RAM was = > installed instead, displays "177777" once, "163776" the next time (when = > powered up), and still absolutely nothing when boot is attempted (i.e. no > = > heads engaging at all). > > Is there something about RT-11 5.04 that I am not aware-of? An it was = > suggested that there is a difference between the Unibus and Q-Bus boot ... > = > any thoughts on that one? =20 I've never heard of that being a problem... > > I can't see memory being the issue anyway: sure, 16KW might be an issue = > (and that card might even be 'flaky'), but the other two cards are large = > enough. Silly question... Whenever I hear of a PDP11 wit flaky memeory I think of the time I was led a merry dance by my 11/45. It turns out the problem ther was power supply related (one ofthe 5V lines was sitting at 4.4V). Have tyoy checked all the power supply voltages with the machine in operation? -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Apr 21 06:21:30 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 23:21:30 +1200 Subject: Status of Lisa bringup References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com><4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <2B8620E0577140BA816FC4C607BF1C6D@massey.ac.nz> > I have a 100% functional Lisa 2/5! Well done Steve. Congratulations! > The only lingering sour note is that I found myself banned from the Google > Lisa list ... What?? I'm on that list and I never saw anything remotely objectionable from you? Are you sure it's not a mistake? Terry (Tez) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Apr 21 06:32:25 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 23:32:25 +1200 Subject: How to thin a collection... References: <4DAE039F.8030608@nathanpralle.com><201104201418.p3KEHwjs022165@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <6099470B5E2D4881AE23E87140643519@massey.ac.nz> > I agree, but watching a few episodes of "Hoarders" is a sufficient > innoculation for me! LOL! I control what I get by sticking to a pre-determined list I made when I first started collecting in 2007. The list contained what I considered to be "classic computers" down here in New Zealand plus a few not-so-classic ones just for nostalgia. It means I've had to grit my teeth and bypass the weird and the wonderful when I've seen it posted on the local auction site for $1. Sticking to a list is fine for BUYING stuff but the system breaks down when people GIVE you computers. If it's vintage and interesting, I can't say no. Fortunately there haven't been to many of these but my small "bloke's shed" above the garage is starting to burst at the seams now. Now I'm a little more confident that I can fix machines when they break down, I've started to sell some of my double ups, which gives me at least room to swing a cat. Terry (Tez) http://www.classic-computers.org.nz From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Apr 21 07:59:19 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 05:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Someone make a USB keyboard for Windows that was inspired by the Atari 400.. I think it looks like something Digital would put out. http://www.engadget.com/2011/04/20/niyari-brings-back-atari-400-nostalgia-with-usb-keyboard-brown/ While it is $150.00.. It's out of stock http://www.geekstuff4u.com/computers/peripherals/keyboard-mouse/niyari-vintage-keyboard.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 21 08:10:36 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 06:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard In-Reply-To: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <761785.14103.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/21/11, Christian Liendo wrote: > Someone make a USB keyboard for > Windows that was inspired by the Atari 400.. I think it > looks like something Digital would put out. > They went to all the trouble to make it look like the Atari keyboard, and stuck the Windows logo on it? Ick. But, still, looks cool. At least it's a chicklet keyboard, rather than that horrible membrane "keyboard" the 400 came with. -Ian From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 08:32:50 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:32:50 -0500 Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard In-Reply-To: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > Someone make a USB keyboard for Windows that was inspired by the Atari 400.. World's. Worst. Keyboard. A friend of mine had an Atari 400. His parents got it for him to "help him with his homework". He used to type his papers on that membrane keyboard. Meanwhile, another friend had a black vintage hammer-type typewriter. Typing papers was actually easier for him that for my friend with the 400. My mom was a secretary. She had an IBM selectric. World's loudest typewriter. She could type 90wpm on that thing. Oh man, what a sound. It sat on a foam mat to try to absorb some of the vibration. I used that for my papers until I got an original IBM 5150 and my school got a much of Apple 2Es. Membrane keyboards for computers should have never been invented. ATM machine, yes. Computer, no. From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Thu Apr 21 07:41:06 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 08:41:06 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <00FDC673AF0C48EBB82D72DF60D1DB3D@Pc12> References: <4DAE9A2F020000E40001DBA0@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> <00FDC673AF0C48EBB82D72DF60D1DB3D@Pc12> Message-ID: <4DAFEE4D.C285.00E4.0@niagaracollege.ca> Hmmm, I was afraid of something like that: a bug of some kind related to my specific configuration. A few questions for the group: Q1: Anyone else ever heard of Version 5 being incompatible with certain CPU configurations? Any work-arounds (e.g. a newer driver I'm not aware of)? Q2: Does Version 4 of RT-11 have the DU.SYS driver allowing MSCP devices to boot? This would make it possible for me to boot RT-11 v4 on my LSI and build an 8" floppy to see if that works on the 11/34. I though MSCP support was version 5 only but I'm not sure. Q3: If I have to try a lower version of RT-11, I found version 3 online for SIMH. I was hoping to boot v3 on SIHM and use Kermit to copy those files to a PC, then boot RT-11 v5 on my LSI, and use kermit on that to upload the files and build a bootable RX-01 using that version. Has anyone used kermit on SIMH to transfer files like this? My LSI system has RT-11 v5 on it already and has kermit so I can upload/download files that way. I figure if I upload RT-11 v3 to the disk (or to a partition or whatever) I can use those files to make a bootable RX-01 disk running v3. Thoughts on that approach? Mark Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 >>> "nierveze" 4/20/2011 10:47 AM >>> hello on bitsavers you can find the user manual of rx01 with lots of things about configuration, you now it?look in that directory http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rx01/ here I have a 11/34 working perfectly well,with rx01 I always heve been unable to boot rt11 v5 ,it boots perfectly well v4,I precise that all system disk were built ant tested on a lsi11 with rx01 (the same) and they all work ok with it but not the 34...mystery ,I have dropped to find the reason best regards,good luck a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Csele" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:32 PM Subject: Re: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... The original RAM configuration is outlined below. It was used this way, and booted just fine from RK-05's in days gone by. An M7847 with 16KW A Motorola board with 6 rows of 9 4116 chips (for a total of 48KW) A Mostek board with eight rows of 9 4116 chips (for a total of 64KW) The Motorola board was originally set to the lowest 48K, the M7847 after that, and the Mostek for the highest 64KW addresses ... I reconfigured when I checked these out (I lack the actual docs on the Motorola and Mostek boards but there are only eight DIP switches so it was easy enough to guess and just verify the range via the front panel ... bus error when a non-existent address is deposited). I think I goofed on the original size of the Mostek board ... it sports two banks of 4 rows by 9 of 4116 chips (64KBytes each bank). As for the RX11 interface (M7846), I could not find config info except for a photo of a board on the web (checked bitsavers but can't find that board). My jumpers are as follows: V2 V4 V5 V7 N1 A7 A8. All other jumpers are snipped off. Power Supply: after the long-term storage in the garage that was the first thing I checked. Once had a 5V supply put out 7V so I'm paranoid about that now! The 5V and +/- 15V supplies are all good. Cheers .... Mark Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 >>> Tony Duell 04/19/11 5:47 PM >>> > > Well, a few more bizarre things to report: > > I tried to disable interrupt sources as suggested. The only one, = > apparently, was the DL11-W SLU/LTC card which was set for both functions. > = > The card was reconfigured to be "SLU Only". No change in behaviour. The > = > DL11-W console is set for address 177560, vector 60. The console will geneate 2 iterrupt vectors (60 and 64 I think) for transmit and receive. They cannont be set separately, so if the DL11-W is working properly, that's OK. The RX11 will also generate interrupts. What's it set to? > > Next, there are three memory cards: one M7847-DJ (16K*18 MOS, MS11-JP), = > one "Motorola memory systems" card with 48K words, and one "MOSTEK memory > = > systems" card with 96K words. Both the two later cards use 4116 DRAM = > chips. Hang on a second. You've got 16Kw + 48Kw + 96kw there. That's 160Kw total. The PDP11/34 (it is an 11/34 IRIC) has 18 bit addressing and can access a total of 128kw. 4Kw are used for the I/O space, so you have have a maximum of 124kw of memory (practically, most memory boards wil lautomatically disable themselves in the I/O space, so you could fit a pair of 64Kw boards, say,m without problems). But with your configuration you must have some locations addressing 2 boards, which is not a good thing. > > Tried to use the M7847-DJ card alone (after all, RT-11SJ should run on = > 16KW of memory). Reconfigured the card address to start at 0 and verified > = > that it occupies addresses 000000 to 077777 via the front panel. When the > = > machine it turned on, the display reads "054207" (this was not expected). > = > Tried booting using the bootstrap on the M9301-YB card: the heads don't = > engage at all and the program halts rapidly displaying "173764" ... = > BIZARRE since that is a non-existent address. Is it? Remeebr the address show is the 16 bit program counter address. If the MMU is disabled (which it will be on power-up, and nothing is going to enable it), addresses starting 16 or 17 are mapped to the I/O space at 76 or 77. So that address is 773764. Which I think is in the bootstrap ROM. > > Next, tried the Motorola memory card which was already configured to start > = > at 0. When the CPU is powered-on, displays "000002" on the display. = > Tried to boot the disk, heads engage, a few steps of the disk heads, and = > halts again at "005134". > > Finally, tried the MOSTEK memory card. Reconfigured to start at 0, and = > verified that addresses 000000 through 377777 are occupied by RAM. Powers > = > up with a display of 000002 and halts at 005134 when a boot is attempted. > > The system is now stripped during testing, consisting of the following: > Slot 1/2 =3D CPU, Slot 3=3DM7859 Panel interface and M9301-YB > bootstrap/ter= > minator, Slot 4=3Dmemory, slot 5&6&7 empty (with a grant continuity card = > in D), slot 8=3DM7856 SLU/LTC, slot 9=3DM9302 at the unibus end and M7846 > = > RX-01 interface. That sounds OK. > As I was typing this, had a thought about slots: I recall reading = > something about not putting memory into slot 9. So, I moved the RX-01 = Yes, The reason is that memroy boards are MUD (Modified Unibus Device) boards and take their signals from connectors A,B (this matters on machines like the 11/44 which have a 22 bit address bus, and where the addres lines on A,B are not the same as those on E). Device controllers (SPCs -- Small Peripheral Controller) take their signals from C-F. On slot 9, the A/B conenctors are the Unibus output to the next backplane (or for a terminaotr) and are not qurie the same signals as the ones on an MUD slot. In fact I think on some machines you can short out a power rail by putting an MUD card in the Unibus Out slot or a termintor in an MUD slot. > controller to slot 6 (and moved the grant card in slot 9D). Now, when = > powered-up with the Motorola or Mostek memory cards, displays "000000" but > = > otherwise no changes in booting behaviour. When the MS11-JP RAM was = > installed instead, displays "177777" once, "163776" the next time (when = > powered up), and still absolutely nothing when boot is attempted (i.e. no > = > heads engaging at all). > > Is there something about RT-11 5.04 that I am not aware-of? An it was = > suggested that there is a difference between the Unibus and Q-Bus boot ... > = > any thoughts on that one? =20 I've never heard of that being a problem... > > I can't see memory being the issue anyway: sure, 16KW might be an issue = > (and that card might even be 'flaky'), but the other two cards are large = > enough. Silly question... Whenever I hear of a PDP11 wit flaky memeory I think of the time I was led a merry dance by my 11/45. It turns out the problem ther was power supply related (one ofthe 5V lines was sitting at 4.4V). Have tyoy checked all the power supply voltages with the machine in operation? -tony From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 09:05:13 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Status of Lisa bringup In-Reply-To: <2B8620E0577140BA816FC4C607BF1C6D@massey.ac.nz> References: <4DA33BDD.4040708@arachelian.com><4DA71E33.3010403@arachelian.com> <2B8620E0577140BA816FC4C607BF1C6D@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, terry stewart wrote: >> I have a 100% functional Lisa 2/5! > > Well done Steve. Congratulations! > >> The only lingering sour note is that I found myself banned from the Google >> Lisa list ... > > What?? I'm on that list and I never saw anything remotely objectionable from > you? Are you sure it's not a mistake? That's what I thought at first. However, the moderator does not respond to repeated attempts to contact him via new posts to the list. I obtained lowenddan's e-mail from another member and tried contacting him privately. He has not responded after two messages. I'm trying to see the humor in it. Like you, I haven't a clue why he would have done this. The internet never ceases to surprise me! Steve -- From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Apr 21 10:20:46 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:20:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4DAFEE4D.C285.00E4.0@niagaracollege.ca> References: <4DAE9A2F020000E40001DBA0@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> <00FDC673AF0C48EBB82D72DF60D1DB3D@Pc12> <4DAFEE4D.C285.00E4.0@niagaracollege.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Mark Csele wrote: > Q1: Anyone else ever heard of Version 5 being incompatible with certain > CPU configurations? Any work-arounds (e.g. a newer driver I'm not aware > of)? I think RT11V5 runs on any PDP-11, at least it runs on our 11/20 and 11/10. > Q2: Does Version 4 of RT-11 have the DU.SYS driver allowing MSCP devices > to boot? This would make it possible for me to boot RT-11 v4 on my LSI No. > My LSI system has RT-11 v5 on it already and has kermit so I can > upload/download files that way. I figure if I upload RT-11 v3 to the > disk (or to a partition or whatever) I can use those files to make a > bootable RX-01 disk running v3. > > Thoughts on that approach? Why don't you just create a new "virgin" RT11 boot disk on your LSI? E.g.: .INIT DX0: .COPY DL0:SWAP.SYS DX0: .COPY DL0:RT11SJ.SYS DX0: .COPY DL0:DX.SYS DX0: .COPY DL0:DL.SYS DX0: .COPY/BOOT:DX DL0:RT11SJ.SYS DX0: and then try booting the disk on the other system. Or did I miss the posting where you've already mentioned that procedure? What happens if you try another monitor, e.g. RT11FB or RT11BL? It may be possible that your version of RT11SJ has been SYSGENed for some options in your LSI machine. Type SHOW CONF on your LSI and what for the version string like "RT-11FB (S) V05.03"; the (S) indicates a SYSGENed monitor. Christian From chrise at pobox.com Thu Apr 21 10:21:17 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:21:17 -0500 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4DAFEE4D.C285.00E4.0@niagaracollege.ca> References: <4DAE9A2F020000E40001DBA0@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> <00FDC673AF0C48EBB82D72DF60D1DB3D@Pc12> <4DAFEE4D.C285.00E4.0@niagaracollege.ca> Message-ID: <20110421152117.GB20020@n0jcf.net> I may have lost track of the problem being addressed here... but if you are trying to get RT-11 v5 booting from an MSCP controller in an 11/34, I have a very recent existance proof that it is possible. Just this past weekend I succeeded in booting both XXDP2.5 and RT-11 V5.3 from ZIP disks connected to my 11/34A via CMD CDU-720 MSCP UNIBUS SCSI controller. I ran RT-11 entirely from the ZIP disk, as the DU: device and it works like a charm. My 11/34A has 128KW of memory, FPP, no cache, RL11 controller for RL02 and one SLU as the console. Chris On Thursday (04/21/2011 at 08:41AM -0400), Mark Csele wrote: > Hmmm, I was afraid of something like that: a bug of some kind related to my specific configuration. > > A few questions for the group: > > Q1: Anyone else ever heard of Version 5 being incompatible with certain CPU configurations? Any work-arounds (e.g. a newer driver I'm not aware of)? > > Q2: Does Version 4 of RT-11 have the DU.SYS driver allowing MSCP devices to boot? This would make it possible for me to boot RT-11 v4 on my LSI and build an 8" floppy to see if that works on the 11/34. I though MSCP support was version 5 only but I'm not sure. > > Q3: If I have to try a lower version of RT-11, I found version 3 online for SIMH. I was hoping to boot v3 on SIHM and use Kermit to copy those files to a PC, then boot RT-11 v5 on my LSI, and use kermit on that to upload the files and build a bootable RX-01 using that version. Has anyone used kermit on SIMH to transfer files like this? > > My LSI system has RT-11 v5 on it already and has kermit so I can upload/download files that way. I figure if I upload RT-11 v3 to the disk (or to a partition or whatever) I can use those files to make a bootable RX-01 disk running v3. > > Thoughts on that approach? > > Mark > > > > > Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. > Niagara College, Canada > 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 > Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 > > (905) 735-2211 x.7629 > E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca > URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele > Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 > > >>> "nierveze" 4/20/2011 10:47 AM >>> > hello on bitsavers you can find the user manual > of rx01 with lots of things about configuration, > you now it?look in that directory > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rx01/ > here I have a 11/34 working perfectly well,with rx01 > I always heve been unable to boot rt11 v5 ,it boots perfectly > well v4,I precise that all system disk were built ant tested on a lsi11 with > rx01 (the same) and they all work ok with it but not the 34...mystery ,I > have dropped to find the reason > best regards,good luck a.nierveze > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Csele" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:32 PM > Subject: Re: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... > > > The original RAM configuration is outlined below. It was used this way, and > booted just fine from RK-05's in days gone by. > > An M7847 with 16KW > A Motorola board with 6 rows of 9 4116 chips (for a total of 48KW) > A Mostek board with eight rows of 9 4116 chips (for a total of 64KW) > > The Motorola board was originally set to the lowest 48K, the M7847 after > that, and the Mostek for the highest 64KW addresses ... I reconfigured when > I checked these out (I lack the actual docs on the Motorola and Mostek > boards but there are only eight DIP switches so it was easy enough to guess > and just verify the range via the front panel ... bus error when a > non-existent address is deposited). > > I think I goofed on the original size of the Mostek board ... it sports two > banks of 4 rows by 9 of 4116 chips (64KBytes each bank). > > As for the RX11 interface (M7846), I could not find config info except for > a photo of a board on the web (checked bitsavers but can't find that board). > My jumpers are as follows: V2 V4 V5 V7 N1 A7 A8. All other jumpers are > snipped off. > > Power Supply: after the long-term storage in the garage that was the first > thing I checked. Once had a 5V supply put out 7V so I'm paranoid about that > now! The 5V and +/- 15V supplies are all good. > > Cheers .... Mark > > > Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. > Niagara College, Canada > 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 > Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 > > (905) 735-2211 x.7629 > E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca > URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele > Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 > >>> Tony Duell 04/19/11 5:47 PM >>> > > > > Well, a few more bizarre things to report: > > > > I tried to disable interrupt sources as suggested. The only one, = > > apparently, was the DL11-W SLU/LTC card which was set for both functions. > > = > > The card was reconfigured to be "SLU Only". No change in behaviour. The > > = > > DL11-W console is set for address 177560, vector 60. > > The console will geneate 2 iterrupt vectors (60 and 64 I think) for > transmit and receive. They cannont be set separately, so if the DL11-W is > working properly, that's OK. > > The RX11 will also generate interrupts. What's it set to? > > > > > Next, there are three memory cards: one M7847-DJ (16K*18 MOS, MS11-JP), = > > one "Motorola memory systems" card with 48K words, and one "MOSTEK memory > > = > > systems" card with 96K words. Both the two later cards use 4116 DRAM = > > chips. > > Hang on a second. You've got 16Kw + 48Kw + 96kw there. That's 160Kw > total. The PDP11/34 (it is an 11/34 IRIC) has 18 bit addressing and can > access a total of 128kw. 4Kw are used for the I/O space, so you have have > a maximum of 124kw of memory (practically, most memory boards wil > lautomatically disable themselves in the I/O space, so you could fit a > pair of 64Kw boards, say,m without problems). But with your configuration > you must have some locations addressing 2 boards, which is not a good thing. > > > > > Tried to use the M7847-DJ card alone (after all, RT-11SJ should run on = > > 16KW of memory). Reconfigured the card address to start at 0 and verified > > = > > that it occupies addresses 000000 to 077777 via the front panel. When the > > = > > machine it turned on, the display reads "054207" (this was not expected). > > = > > Tried booting using the bootstrap on the M9301-YB card: the heads don't = > > engage at all and the program halts rapidly displaying "173764" ... = > > BIZARRE since that is a non-existent address. > > Is it? Remeebr the address show is the 16 bit program counter address. If > the MMU is disabled (which it will be on power-up, and nothing is going > to enable it), addresses starting 16 or 17 are mapped to the I/O space at > 76 or 77. So that address is 773764. Which I think is in the bootstrap > ROM. > > > > > Next, tried the Motorola memory card which was already configured to start > > = > > at 0. When the CPU is powered-on, displays "000002" on the display. = > > Tried to boot the disk, heads engage, a few steps of the disk heads, and = > > halts again at "005134". > > > > Finally, tried the MOSTEK memory card. Reconfigured to start at 0, and = > > verified that addresses 000000 through 377777 are occupied by RAM. Powers > > = > > up with a display of 000002 and halts at 005134 when a boot is attempted. > > > > The system is now stripped during testing, consisting of the following: > > Slot 1/2 =3D CPU, Slot 3=3DM7859 Panel interface and M9301-YB > > bootstrap/ter= > > minator, Slot 4=3Dmemory, slot 5&6&7 empty (with a grant continuity card = > > in D), slot 8=3DM7856 SLU/LTC, slot 9=3DM9302 at the unibus end and M7846 > > = > > RX-01 interface. > > That sounds OK. > > > As I was typing this, had a thought about slots: I recall reading = > > something about not putting memory into slot 9. So, I moved the RX-01 = > > Yes, The reason is that memroy boards are MUD (Modified Unibus Device) > boards and take their signals from connectors A,B (this matters on > machines like the 11/44 which have a 22 bit address bus, and where the > addres lines on A,B are not the same as those on E). Device controllers > (SPCs -- Small Peripheral Controller) take their signals from C-F. On > slot 9, the A/B conenctors are the Unibus output to the next backplane > (or for a terminaotr) and are not qurie the same signals as the ones on > an MUD slot. In fact I think on some machines you can short out a power > rail by putting an MUD card in the Unibus Out slot or a termintor in an > MUD slot. > > > controller to slot 6 (and moved the grant card in slot 9D). Now, when = > > powered-up with the Motorola or Mostek memory cards, displays "000000" but > > = > > otherwise no changes in booting behaviour. When the MS11-JP RAM was = > > installed instead, displays "177777" once, "163776" the next time (when = > > powered up), and still absolutely nothing when boot is attempted (i.e. no > > = > > heads engaging at all). > > > > Is there something about RT-11 5.04 that I am not aware-of? An it was = > > suggested that there is a difference between the Unibus and Q-Bus boot ... > > = > > any thoughts on that one? =20 > > I've never heard of that being a problem... > > > > > I can't see memory being the issue anyway: sure, 16KW might be an issue = > > (and that card might even be 'flaky'), but the other two cards are large = > > enough. > > Silly question... Whenever I hear of a PDP11 wit flaky memeory I think of > the time I was led a merry dance by my 11/45. It turns out the problem > ther was power supply related (one ofthe 5V lines was sitting at 4.4V). > Have tyoy checked all the power supply voltages with the machine in > operation? > > -tony > > > > > > > -- Chris Elmquist From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Apr 21 11:27:59 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:27:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Christian Liendo > wrote: >> Someone make a USB keyboard for Windows that was inspired by the Atari 400.. > > World's. Worst. Keyboard. I dunno, the Timex Sinclair 1000 might be even worse. Alexey From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 11:31:03 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:31:03 -0500 Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 7:59 AM, Christian Liendo >> wrote: >>> >>> Someone make a USB keyboard for Windows that was inspired by the Atari >>> 400.. >> >> World's. ?Worst. ?Keyboard. > > I dunno, the Timex Sinclair 1000 might be even worse. You're right, that one was worse. The friend with the typewriter had a timex sinclair 1000 before he got his c64. Of course, it's hard to fit a full stroke keyboard on an overgrown calculator. :-) brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 11:48:59 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:48:59 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11 weight Message-ID: What are the dimensions and weights of a PDP-11/60 in the late model cabinet - the one that was used on the DECsystem branded PDP-11/70s? Google image search for "DECsystem 570". No drives installed. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 11:55:56 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:55:56 -0400 Subject: CMS disk drive? Message-ID: I have encountered an old 14" disk drive - it looks like it is probably a clone of an IBM 2314. It does not look like a 2314 at all (it is plain blue box with, that sort of looks like a 2311, but with more heads), and no tag at all. The drive interface uses that goofy connector that the late 60s IBM drives standardized on, for talking to the control units. The boards all have "CMS" stamped on them. Any ideas? Was CMS, whoever they were, one of the early clone companies? -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 11:57:29 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:57:29 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11 weight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB061F9.1060409@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: > What are the dimensions and weights of a PDP-11/60 in the late model > cabinet - the one that was used on the DECsystem branded PDP-11/70s? > Google image search for "DECsystem 570". > > No drives installed. You're welcome to come measure mine. Weight might be more difficult though. Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 21 12:38:23 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 10:38:23 -0700 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> On 4/21/11 9:55 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > The drive interface uses that goofy > connector that the late 60s IBM drives standardized on Bus and Tag interface. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 21 12:42:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:42:41 -0400 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB06C91.6030508@neurotica.com> On 4/21/11 1:38 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> The drive interface uses that goofy >> connector that the late 60s IBM drives standardized on > > Bus and Tag interface. I thought he said (in the part you trimmed) that this was the controller->drive interface. B&T would be the CPU->controller interface. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 21 13:47:48 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 11:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > My mom was a secretary. She had an IBM selectric. World's loudest > typewriter. She could type 90wpm on that thing. Oh man, what a > sound. It sat on a foam mat to try to absorb some of the vibration. I > used that for my papers until I got an original IBM 5150 and my school > got a much of Apple 2Es. Rated top speed for the mechanism was 14.8 characters per second (about 150 WPM). But a 150 WPM typist (yes, I've met some!) would have bursts substantially higher, and selectrics would come apart. At work, somebody succeeded in running one at 300 baud. Briefly. That was discontinued when the "golfball" went flying into a sheetrock wall. > Membrane keyboards for computers should have never been invented. ATM > machine, yes. Computer, no. and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people actually objected to. Radio Shack put out the Coco wityth chiklets. They ended up providing cheap/free replacements. IBM showed that they were incapable of learning from the mistakes of others, and released the PCJr with chiklets. They ended up providing cheap/free replacements. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 21 14:00:19 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard In-Reply-To: <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: >> My mom was a secretary. She had an IBM selectric. World's loudest >> typewriter. She could type 90wpm on that thing. Oh man, what a >> sound. It sat on a foam mat to try to absorb some of the vibration. I >> used that for my papers until I got an original IBM 5150 and my school >> got a much of Apple 2Es. > > Rated top speed for the mechanism was 14.8 characters per second (about > 150 WPM). But a 150 WPM typist (yes, I've met some!) would have bursts > substantially higher, and selectrics would come apart. At work, somebody > succeeded in running one at 300 baud. Briefly. That was discontinued when > the "golfball" went flying into a sheetrock wall. > I would have paid money to witness that. :) > and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people actually objected to. > Radio Shack put out the Coco wityth chiklets. They ended up providing > cheap/free replacements. > IBM showed that they were incapable of learning from the mistakes of > others, and released the PCJr with chiklets. They ended up providing > cheap/free replacements. > This is what happens when you've got MBA wielding accounti-zombies running a technology company. I swear that their frontal lobes are scooped out with a melon baller when they get their diploma... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 21 14:11:54 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:11:54 -0700 Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people actually > objected to. Commodore PET 2001 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys on later models. TRS-80 Color Computer chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys on later models. TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys on later 99/4A model. IBM PCjr chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys on replacement keyboard Apple chiclet keyboards: loved by all the Apple fanboys. Not only have they not been replaced with normal keys on later models, but now other notebook vendors have copied them! Bletch! There's a REASON that typewriter keys weren't just flat square things. The concavity of the key tops made the typist's fingertips self-center rather than wandering off. Chiclet keyboard don't do that, and are an abomination. This is a separate issue from whether the chiclets are rubber or hard plastic. Rubber chicklets suck even more! This is also a separate issue from the distance of travel. There's no reason that a key top can't have the correct shape with short travel, as was/is done on many notebooks. (Whether short or long travel is better is a different debate entirely.) Last time I shopped for a notebook, the only thing I could find that came reasonably close to meeting all of my requirements was a Sony VPCEB17FX. My main gripe with it is the damn chiclet keyboard. Sony apparently thinks that they'll sell more notebooks if they copy Apple, and for all I know, perhaps they're right. It sucks though. I would have gladly paid an extra $100 to get the same thing with a real keyboard instead of the f*#&ing chiclets. The Onion story about the MacBook Wheel quoted a supposed customer: "I'll buy almost anything If it's shiny and made by Apple." Apparently they found reality to be more amusing than any parody they could think up. http://www.theonion.com/video/apple-introduces-revolutionary-new-laptop-with-no,14299/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 21 14:19:29 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:19:29 -0400 Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <546DDE3C4255419E98E0BA95AE14FC6A@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 3:11 PM Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) > Fred Cisin wrote: > > and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people actually > > objected to. > > Commodore PET 2001 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with > normal keys on later models. > > TRS-80 Color Computer chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with > normal keys on later models. > > TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys on > later 99/4A model. > > IBM PCjr chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys > on replacement keyboard > > Apple chiclet keyboards: loved by all the Apple fanboys. Not only have > they not been replaced with normal keys on later models, but now other > notebook vendors have copied them! > > Bletch! Try the Timex 2068 chicklet keys (hard plastic), but instead of just typing commands you have to hit wierd key combos. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 21 14:21:24 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:21:24 -0700 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB083B4.3040001@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > The drive interface uses that goofy > connector that the late 60s IBM drives standardized on, > for talking to the control units. Al Kossow wrote: > Bus and Tag interface. Unless I'm terribly confused, "bus and tag" were the cables from the mainframe's I/O channel to the control unit, not from the control unit to the drive. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 21 14:22:35 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys on > later 99/4A model. > The "normal" keyboard was still unusable. All the keys were pretty much the same size! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 14:24:15 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:24:15 -0400 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: No, not bus and tag. This is the interface between the drives and the controllers. The connectors are quite different. -- Will On Apr 21, 2011 11:40 AM, "Al Kossow" wrote: On 4/21/11 9:55 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > The drive interface uses that goofy > connector tha... Bus and Tag interface. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 14:36:08 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:36:08 -0400 Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: >> My mom was a secretary. ?She had an IBM selectric. ?World's loudest >> typewriter. ?She could type 90wpm on that thing. ?Oh man, what a >> sound. It sat on a foam mat to try to absorb some of the vibration. ?I >> used that for my papers until I got an original IBM 5150 and my school >> got a much of Apple 2Es. > > Rated top speed for the mechanism was 14.8 characters per second (about > 150 WPM). ?But a 150 WPM typist (yes, I've met some!) would have bursts > substantially higher, and selectrics would come apart. I do not know precisely how fast my mother could type, but her Selectric sounded like a machine gun when she got going. She never had one "fly apart", but she did wear out more than one unit from 8-10-hour-days of multi-page-carbon-set production work (final copies of court transcripts). She was paid by the page, so long stretches of error-free typing was the only way to make a decent wage. At one point in the early 1980s, her machine broke and she took it to a new repair shop in town. The tech was puzzled at the wear he observed during the triage until he watched her type to test out the freshly-repaired unit. As she banged away at a high rate of speed for a full page, the tech nodded and said to her, "you and I are going to become good friends". He was right. (Our 32K PET shared the home office with the Selectric. One afternoon when I was noodling around on the PET and she was deep in production mode, during a pause in the clatter, I remarked that someday soon, she'd be doing all of that "on one of these" (meaning a computer, not specifically a PET). She laughed. Less than five years later, she switched to 512K Macs and an Apple LaserWriter I). > At work, somebody succeeded in running one at 300 baud. ?Briefly. > That was discontinued when the "golfball" went flying into a sheetrock wall. Wow. Who knew full-face-shields were needed in an office environment. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 21 14:36:37 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC PDP-11 weight In-Reply-To: <4DB061F9.1060409@gmail.com> References: <4DB061F9.1060409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >> What are the dimensions and weights of a PDP-11/60 in the late model >> cabinet - the one that was used on the DECsystem branded PDP-11/70s? >> Google image search for "DECsystem 570". >> >> No drives installed. > > You're welcome to come measure mine. Weight might be more difficult though. > > Peace... Sridhar Would that info be in the 11/60 handbook? If so I know where there is a copy, and I can look at it later. Zane From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 21 14:42:30 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <131424.6819.qm@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 4/21/11, Gene Buckle wrote: > > TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, > replaced with normal keys on later 99/4A model. > > > The "normal" keyboard was still unusable. All the > keys were pretty much the same size! > Hehe. It wasn't so much the size of the keys, it was the lack thereof. Backspace should not be a shifted character. What was it, like function-S or something? I forget. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 14:49:52 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:49:52 -0400 Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people actually >> objected to. > > Commodore PET 2001 chiclet keyboard: ?hated by everyone, replaced with > normal keys on later models. Some folks didn't even wait. Some paid over $100 for an external "full-sized" keyboard. I bought a blue-bezel chiclet PET with the internal cable from Skyles Electric Works for the external keyboard (probably long since separated). In 1978, I liked the PET chiclet keyboard because the keys were on a square grid and it made 2-player action games easy to implement (using the keys around the 'S' and the keys around the '5' as an "8 way pad"). This was when Atari joysticks were still somewhat expensive and before the diode trick for hanging two joysticks off the User Port emerged. Even after the "PET Paper" published joystick interface schematics and instructions, very little commercial game software supported joysticks on the PET. I didn't type very fast when I was a kid, so I didn't mind how unsuitable the keyboard was for "real" typists. Now, I'd find it incredibly awkward. Unlike the TI-99/4 and other machines inflicted with chiclets, I find it amusing that it's become a defining feature for "collectible PETs". Back in the day, there was a rush for the exits on the old model when you could buy a machine that could easily be expanded above 8K (without adding boards) and had a full-sized keyboard. Because of firmware differences, "New" PETs very quickly pushed the older models to the side in terms of what was supported and what you could get peripherals and software for. Now (largely because issues of practicality are irrelevant), the price of a 1977/1978 chiclet-keyboard PET is several times that of a 1978 Graphic or Business-keyboard PET. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 21 14:51:53 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <131424.6819.qm@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <131424.6819.qm@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 4/21/11, Gene Buckle wrote: > >>> TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, >> replaced with normal keys on later 99/4A model. >>> >> The "normal" keyboard was still unusable. All the >> keys were pretty much the same size! >> > > Hehe. It wasn't so much the size of the keys, it was the lack thereof. > Backspace should not be a shifted character. What was it, like > function-S or something? I forget. No clue. The first time I tried one, my hands went on strike after touching the keyboard. I had to hold my Commodore 64 for three days before they'd speak to me again. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 15:04:50 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:04:50 -0300 Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 lookingKeyboard) References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net><4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <59F8AA27ADB64755B7646F845DBBDBE5@portajara> >I didn't type very fast when I was a kid, so I didn't mind how >unsuitable the keyboard was for "real" typists. Now, I'd find it >incredibly awkward. Nice point, Ethan! Someone here said that these keys should be banned. It was the ONLY way to create a computer cheap enough to cost below (pound)100, and to make more expensive puters cheaper. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 15:17:50 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:17:50 -0400 Subject: HP6940B Free! Message-ID: Free for a little gas money - a new? in box with manual 6940B general purpose IO box, can be used with quite a few HP systems with the right interface card, which we do not have. Located in Boulder, CO, and can deliver to SLC, Seattle, or the Bay Area. It is not too huge, about ten inches of rack space. Let me know now! -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 15:20:14 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:20:14 -0400 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: <4DB083B4.3040001@brouhaha.com> References: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> <4DB083B4.3040001@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: These connectors are smaller than b&t, and are a weird mix of pins, blades, and coax. -- Will On Apr 21, 2011 1:22 PM, "Eric Smith" wrote: William Donzelli wrote: > The drive interface uses that goofy > connector that the late 60s IBM drives standardized on, > for talking to the control units. Al Kossow wrote: > Bus and Tag interface. Unless I'm terribly confused, "bus and tag" were the cables from the mainframe's I/O channel to the control unit, not from the control unit to the drive. From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 21 15:23:24 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:23:24 -0700 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <034115F3236C4F598BF8EB1D9EDB8895@tegp4> Can up describe it in more detail or better yet post some photos? For example does it have 20 heads? Is the funny connector the AMP M series, are there 3 (control in, out and data in/out)? Does the spindle look like the nose cone of a rocket with a hole in the center? Etc. CMS might be Caelus Memory Systems but I don't think they ever did a 2314 class machine I seem to recall a Computer Memory Systems but I think they were much later Could be some variant on CalComp or Century Data Systems Tom > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 12:55:56 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Subject: CMS disk drive? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I have encountered an old 14" disk drive - it looks like it is > probably a clone of an IBM 2314. It does not look like a 2314 at all > (it is plain blue box with, that sort of looks like a 2311, but with > more heads), and no tag at all. The drive interface uses that goofy > connector that the late 60s IBM drives standardized on, for talking to > the control units. The boards all have "CMS" stamped on them. Any > ideas? Was CMS, whoever they were, one of the early clone companies? > > -- > Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 21 15:36:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:36:53 -0700 Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB032F5.16251.15C8DBC@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2011 at 15:36, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Fred Cisin > wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: >> My mom was a > secretary. ?She had an IBM selectric. ?World's loudest >> typewriter. > ?She could type 90wpm on that thing. ?Oh man, what a >> sound. It sat > on a foam mat to try to absorb some of the vibration. ?I >> used that > for my papers until I got an original IBM 5150 and my school >> got a > much of Apple 2Es. > > Rated top speed for the mechanism was 14.8 > characters per second (about > 150 WPM). ?But a 150 WPM typist (yes, > I've met some!) would have bursts > substantially higher, and > selectrics would come apart. It seems that if you want to set records, you wouldn't use a Selectric, but rather an old IBM Electric: "What?s the fastest typing speed ever recorded? The top speed ever achieved by a typist, 216 words per minute stands as the record, set by one Stella Pajunas in 1946 on an IBM electric. To give you an idea of her accomplishment, sixty words per minute is considered good professional speed. The record for top speed for over an hour of nonstop typing is 149 words per minute, also set on an IBM machine." ..and I believe that the endurance record for typing is 276 hours, but I don't know what the rules were. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 21 15:44:17 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:44:17 -0700 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: References: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> <4DB083B4.3040001@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DB09721.8030200@bitsavers.org> On 4/21/11 1:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > These connectors are smaller than b&t, and are a weird mix of pins, blades, > and coax. > OK, the connectors I was thinking of were like page 1-2 of TM114-1072-J-1M_Model_114_Tech_Oct73 The 114 calls the two cables DC (radial) and SIGNAL (BUSED). SIGNAL has bus and tag lines and the DC cable has the coax. They are similar to the Memorex cables with AMP connectiors Tom mentioned. Weren't the cables from the CPU to Controllers "Channel" cables? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Apr 21 15:48:06 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:48:06 +1200 Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400lookingKeyboard) References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net><4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> <59F8AA27ADB64755B7646F845DBBDBE5@portajara> Message-ID: <4E5A2D5955AF4519B48C2BD284565EB5@massey.ac.nz> Yes, chicklet keyboards were inferior and I'm no fan of them but they did make the machines cheaper. Buying a computer for personal use was expensive back in the late 70s/early 80s. At the time cheap keyboards did allow exposure to the technology that a lot of people would not have be able to afford. Regarding the Atari 400, the flat membrane keyboard makes sense. Don't forget, the 800 was released at the same time. People who wanted the "serious" model were expected to buy that one. The 400 was a cheaper family games machine mostly cartridge driven. However, it was software compatible with the 800 and had a keyboard just in case people might want to dabble in BASIC, learn some programming etc. A keyboard which could be wiped down and quite robust and kid-proof. I think the Atari 400 keyboard was quite sensible for the market it was aimed at. Terry (Tez) http://www.classic-computers.org.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 8:04 AM Subject: Re: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400lookingKeyboard) > >I didn't type very fast when I was a kid, so I didn't mind how >>unsuitable the keyboard was for "real" typists. Now, I'd find it >>incredibly awkward. > > Nice point, Ethan! > > Someone here said that these keys should be banned. It was the ONLY way > to create a computer cheap enough to cost below (pound)100, and to make > more expensive puters cheaper. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 21 15:50:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:50:05 -0400 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: <4DB09721.8030200@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> <4DB083B4.3040001@brouhaha.com> <4DB09721.8030200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB0987D.6080603@neurotica.com> On 4/21/11 4:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> These connectors are smaller than b&t, and are a weird mix of pins, >> blades, >> and coax. > > OK, the connectors I was thinking of were like page 1-2 of > TM114-1072-J-1M_Model_114_Tech_Oct73 > > The 114 calls the two cables DC (radial) and SIGNAL (BUSED). SIGNAL has > bus and tag lines and > the DC cable has the coax. They are similar to the Memorex cables with > AMP connectiors Tom > mentioned. I suspect that "bus and tag" is very, very different from the "bus and tag" interface that connects CPUs to peripheral controllers. First of all, the standardized IBM bus & tag interface doesn't have a radial cable along with the bus & tag cables. > Weren't the cables from the CPU to Controllers "Channel" cables? They are "parallel channel" interfaces, which themselves consist of a single "bus" cable and a single "tag" cable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 15:58:33 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:58:33 -0400 Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <4DB032F5.16251.15C8DBC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DB032F5.16251.15C8DBC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DB09A79.8090004@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > ..and I believe that the endurance record for typing is 276 hours, > but I don't know what the rules were. This is very, very dangerous. Going without sleep for that long can cause permanent damage. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 21 16:05:46 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:05:46 -0600 Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4DB0817A.9000806 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people actually > > objected to. > > Commodore PET 2001 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with > normal keys on later models. > > TRS-80 Color Computer chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced > with normal keys on later models. > > TI-99/4 chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys > on later 99/4A model. > > IBM PCjr chiclet keyboard: hated by everyone, replaced with normal keys > on replacement keyboard > > Apple chiclet keyboards: loved by all the Apple fanboys. Not only have > they not been replaced with normal keys on later models, but now other > notebook vendors have copied them! > > Bletch! Toshiba netbook chiclet keyboards: hated by everyone. I am very happy with my Toshiba netbook, except for the chiclet keyboard. Not only is it a poor feel, its the first keyboard I've used in a long time that actually loses my keystrokes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 21 16:09:13 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:09:13 -0600 Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110421113925.E75894@shell.lmi.net> <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > [...] Now (largely because issues of > practicality are irrelevant), the price of a 1977/1978 > chiclet-keyboard PET is several times that of a 1978 Graphic or > Business-keyboard PET. Isn't it ironic that the damned chiclet keyboard is the defining visual/memory characteristic of the PET? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From useddec at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 16:09:56 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 16:09:56 -0500 Subject: DEC PDP-11 weight In-Reply-To: References: <4DB061F9.1060409@gmail.com> Message-ID: The site prep and installation manuals should have it. Paul On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> William Donzelli wrote: >>> >>> What are the dimensions and weights of a PDP-11/60 in the late model >>> cabinet - the one that was used on the DECsystem branded PDP-11/70s? >>> Google image search for "DECsystem 570". >>> >>> No drives installed. >> >> You're welcome to come measure mine. ?Weight might be more difficult >> though. >> >> Peace... ?Sridhar > > Would that info be in the 11/60 handbook? ?If so I know where there is a > copy, and I can look at it later. > > Zane > > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 21 16:19:15 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:19:15 -0600 Subject: HP6940B Free! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Free for a little gas money - a new? in box with manual 6940B general > purpose IO box, can be used with quite a few HP systems with the right > interface card, which we do not have. Located in Boulder, CO, and can > deliver to SLC, Seattle, or the Bay Area. It is not too huge, about ten > inches of rack space. Let me know now! Additional info: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 16:21:24 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:21:24 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11 weight In-Reply-To: References: <4DB061F9.1060409@gmail.com> Message-ID: My manuals are 2000 miles away from me. -- Will On Apr 21, 2011 3:12 PM, "Paul Anderson" wrote: The site prep and installation manuals should have it. Paul On Thu, Apr 21, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Thu, 21 Apr 2... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 21 16:02:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:02:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <4DAF8714.4020104@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 21, 11 02:23:32 am Message-ID: > > On 21/04/11 01:20, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> I would be your first customer. I've always wanted to play with a 3B1, > >> even > >> a facsimile. > > > > Why would you need to do it in an FPGA? It's a 68k with fairly > > "standard" hardware. > > Because the standard board is frickin' huge, a massive power hog and WHo cares how large it is, or how much power it draws? I am dead serious, what does it matter. > known to be a wee bit on the unreliable side. And if it was an FPGA with RAM hung off it, I am pretty sure there'd be _none_ still working, and unless the original design data (vhdl/schematics/etc for the FPGA) was availale, I don't see how they could be repaired. Yes, I know you're one of the 'good guys' and publish your FPGA desings, but docuemtnation does get lost.... > > Drop the design into an FPGA and you go from several huge boards full of > TTL to one Eurocard, an FPGA, and a couple of RAM chips. With nowhere to connect the 'scope and logic analyser to debug it, no interesting signals to look at... Might as well jsut buy a modern PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 21 16:05:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:05:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard In-Reply-To: <761785.14103.qm@web121618.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Apr 21, 11 06:10:36 am Message-ID: > But, still, looks cool. At least it's a chicklet keyboard, rather than > that horrible membrane "keyboard" the 400 came with. Many years ago I specificually used an Atari 400 keyboard in a project _because_ it was a membrane one and didn't have keycaps that could be removed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 21 16:14:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:14:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <4DB0817A.9000806@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 21, 11 12:11:54 pm Message-ID: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > and yet, it was the chiklets shaped keys that people actually > > objected to. [...] > There's a REASON that typewriter keys weren't just flat square things. > The concavity of the key tops made the typist's fingertips self-center > rather than wandering off. Chiclet keyboard don't do that, and are an > abomination. Do you conside the HP9185 and HP8825/9831 keyboards to be 'chicklets'? They havea very short travel and low profile keys, but one thing HP did right was to make the keys dished in the centre to locate your fingers. The HP9825 keybaord was replaced by a full-travel one later one. I assume the 9831 one was too, but that machine is hard enoguh to find as it is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 21 16:24:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:24:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP6940B Free! In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 21, 11 04:17:50 pm Message-ID: > > Free for a little gas money - a new? in box with manual 6940B general > purpose IO box, can be used with quite a few HP systems with the right > interface card, which we do not have. Located in Boulder, CO, and can > deliver to SLC, Seattle, or the Bay Area. It is not too huge, about ten > inches of rack space. Let me know now! If I'm remembering the model number right, this is what HP called a 'multiprogrammer'. It's quite a fun device, it must be one of the few I/O systems with a lights-and-switches (well, buttons' frontpanel... Anyway, a few comments. If it really is 'new in box', it won't have any I/O cards in it, just the control logic cards. Said I/O cards incldue things like relay boards, ADCs, DACs, digital I/O, etc. It's pretty useless without any such cards. I was luck, I found an e-bay seller seelling a load of boards he'd pulled fro,m such a unit which totally filled up mine. It's not large (4U rack, IIRC), bnt it is heavy. There's a large mains transformer in the back. As for the host interface, it's bascially 16 bits host->multiprogrammer, 13 bits multiprogrammer->host, and a few control lines, Not complicated. There's a thing called an HP59500 which is an HPIB interface for this unit (a 2U rack that sits on top of it, that one is very light) which turns up on E-bay all the time. That should work with any HPIB controller. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 17:23:13 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 19:23:13 -0300 Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 lookingKeyboard) References: <4DB032F5.16251.15C8DBC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >..and I believe that the endurance record for typing is 276 hours, >but I don't know what the rules were. 11+ days wake (woke? waked? Sorry)??? I doubt it :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 17:35:54 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 18:35:54 -0400 Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 lookingKeyboard) In-Reply-To: References: <4DB032F5.16251.15C8DBC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Most world records for endurance have breaks built in. -- Will On Apr 21, 2011 4:31 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: > ..and I believe that the endurance record for typing is 276 hours, but I don't know what the rules... 11+ days wake (woke? waked? Sorry)??? I doubt it :) From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 21 17:59:38 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:59:38 -0700 Subject: CMS disk drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24F4D49B70394BD58E9D7786C761A862@tegp4> The IBM channel cables were separately a Bus Cable and a Tag Cable and I believe the high data rate version had two of one of them, probably the Bus Cable. They used an IBM proprietary hermaphroditic pin and shell which initially we had to buy from IBM at extraordinary prices but after a while someone, I forgot whom, came out with a plug compatible pin that avoided IBMs patents. The Signal Cable in the OEM HDD interface from RP01 -> SMD interface had three tags (set head, set cylinder and control) and a bus of varying width starting with 8 bits and growing about 1 bit/generation. The DC cable in the same interface had separate read and write cables and a few signals. The names go back to the 2311 era or perhaps the 1311 era when I seem to recall at least the DC Cable carried some DC into the drive. They had a 4th tag, set difference which the OEMs didn't use. Tom > Message: 20 > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 13:44:17 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: CMS disk drive? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4DB09721.8030200 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 4/21/11 1:20 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > These connectors are smaller than b&t, and are a weird mix of pins, > blades, > > and coax. > > > > OK, the connectors I was thinking of were like page 1-2 of > TM114-1072-J-1M_Model_114_Tech_Oct73 > > The 114 calls the two cables DC (radial) and SIGNAL (BUSED). SIGNAL has > bus and tag lines and > the DC cable has the coax. They are similar to the Memorex cables with AMP > connectiors Tom > mentioned. > > Weren't the cables from the CPU to Controllers "Channel" cables? From mardy at voysys.com Thu Apr 21 18:35:55 2011 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 19:35:55 -0400 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork Message-ID: A few years ago I came to poses an original unassembled Altair 8800 kit. I have since decided to donate it to the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. But before I send it off, I would like to capture the printed circuit board artwork and make available to others wishing to reproduce bare boards. Can anyone recommend a service bureau, preferably somewhere on the east coast (US), that can do the work? -Mardy From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 21 19:45:51 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Drop the design into an FPGA and you go from several huge boards full of >> TTL to one Eurocard, an FPGA, and a couple of RAM chips. > > With nowhere to connect the 'scope and logic analyser to debug it, no > interesting signals to look at... Might as well jsut buy a modern PC. > /me surrounds Tony with a ring of "Keep off the lawn!" signs g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Apr 21 20:05:28 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 02:05:28 +0100 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB0D458.2030809@philpem.me.uk> On 21/04/11 22:02, Tony Duell wrote: >> Drop the design into an FPGA and you go from several huge boards full of >> TTL to one Eurocard, an FPGA, and a couple of RAM chips. > > With nowhere to connect the 'scope and logic analyser to debug it, no > interesting signals to look at... Might as well jsut buy a modern PC. Go look up "ChipScope" and "SignalTap II". Then tell me you can't spy on the internal logic of an FPGA. If you really want to use a standalone logic analyser (I often do because it tends to be more reliable) then there's always the option of pulling a couple of pins out onto solder pads. The 1.27mm TESTPADs in the EAGLE base libraries work quite well IME. Big enough to be easy to solder to, small enough that they don't take up much board space. The DiscFerret ICSP header is as big as it is for one reason only: because when you're using pogo pins, you want the alignment to be as insignificant (or "non-critical" if you prefer) as is technically possible! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 21 20:05:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 18:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110421180447.M87013@shell.lmi.net> > > World's. ?Worst. ?Keyboard. > I dunno, the Timex Sinclair 1000 might be even worse. Isn't that just a PICTURE of a keyboard stuck on there for decoration? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 20:30:20 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:30:20 -0300 Subject: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard References: <588089.30780.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20110421180447.M87013@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <03C828F17041479AA1669F1078862144@portajara> > > World's. Worst. Keyboard. > I dunno, the Timex Sinclair 1000 might be even worse. >Isn't that just a PICTURE of a keyboard stuck on there for decoration? CCtalk joke of the day?, congratulations :) From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 21 22:08:11 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 23:08:11 -0400 Subject: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) References: Message-ID: <8A20DFE5FC034ADC819B0E91CC373630@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 15:49:52 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: F&*#ing chicklet keyboards (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Some folks didn't even wait. Some paid over $100 for an external "full-sized" keyboard. I bought a blue-bezel chiclet PET with the internal cable from Skyles Electric Works for the external keyboard (probably long since separated). Now (largely because issues of practicality are irrelevant), the price of a 1977/1978 chiclet-keyboard PET is several times that of a 1978 Graphic or Business-keyboard PET. -ethan ----- Reply ----- There was an upgrade kit available from Commodore, consisting of a replacement upper case half with the new Graphic keyboard, a new black decal and matching black monitor bezel, and an optional new external cassette deck to replace the internal missing-the-corner unit. I upgraded mine and also replaced the white screen with a green tube; glad now I kept the original parts for the day I sell it... m From technobug at comcast.net Thu Apr 21 23:13:29 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:13:29 -0700 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> A friend desires to leave the hot desert this summer and move to the cool mountain and yet maintain contact with his PDP11 with which he still runs his business. He has a rotten phone connection, but good internet. He runs a highly modified version of RTST 5x and cannot reasonably move his stable 30 y/o applications to later/other OS's. I would appreciate knowing what the listers use to accomplish same. -> CRC From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 21 23:33:22 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:33:22 -0700 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> Message-ID: At 9:13 PM -0700 4/21/11, CRC wrote: >A friend desires to leave the hot desert this summer and move to the >cool mountain and yet maintain contact with his PDP11 with which he >still runs his business. He has a rotten phone connection, but good >internet. He runs a highly modified version of RTST 5x and cannot >reasonably move his stable 30 y/o applications to later/other OS's. >I would appreciate knowing what the listers use to accomplish same. > > -> CRC I would recommend running the E11 PDP-11 emulator on a laptop. Though based on what you describe, I think SIMH could work just as well. Honestly I'd recommend moving it over to an emulator anyway if he's running his business off of it. It's one thing for those of us here to run PDP-11 hardware of that vintage as a hobby, it's another thing to depend on it for your livelihood. What type of drives is he using? The following webpage desperately needs updated, but should point you in the right direction. http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp11emu.html Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From drb at msu.edu Thu Apr 21 23:43:34 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 00:43:34 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:13:29 PDT.) <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20110422044334.57776A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > A friend desires to leave the hot desert this summer and move to the > cool mountain and yet maintain contact with his PDP11 with which he > still runs his business. He has a rotten phone connection, but good > internet. He runs a highly modified version of RTST 5x and cannot > reasonably move his stable 30 y/o applications to later/other OS's. I > would appreciate knowing what the listers use to accomplish same. A relatively lightweight PC at his business, with internet access and a serial port, running linux and kermit, should get him access. For certain values of soldering in the missing serial port, even one of the linux-based linksys routers could probably be made to work. SSH from the mountain to the PC/linksys, kermit to PDP. De From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 22 00:11:20 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 22:11:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard) In-Reply-To: <4DB09A79.8090004@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Apr 21, 11 04:58:33 pm" Message-ID: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com> > > ..and I believe that the endurance record for typing is 276 hours, > > but I don't know what the rules were. > > This is very, very dangerous. Going without sleep for that long can > cause permanent damage. As Will pointed out, they almost always "cheat." My longest episode without sleep was an intern call where I got no rest for 36 hours. Nearly went into the center divider driving back to my apartment. Hope my overnight admission orders didn't kill anyone. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When people get acupuncture, do voodoo dolls die? -------------------------- From tiggerlasv at aim.com Fri Apr 22 06:38:48 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 07:38:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Serial Port Web Server Message-ID: <8CDCEF8FAFBEA90-1E34-102CD@webmail-d050.sysops.aol.com> >> A friend desires to leave the hot desert this summer and move to the >> cool mountain and yet maintain contact with his PDP11 with which he >> still runs his business. He has a rotten phone connection, but good >> internet. He runs a highly modified version of RTST 5x and cannot >> reasonably move his stable 30 y/o applications to later/other OS's. I >> would appreciate knowing what the listers use to accomplish same. > A relatively lightweight PC at his business, with internet access and a > serial port, running linux and kermit, should get him access. For > certain values of soldering in the missing serial port, even one of the > linux-based linksys routers could probably be made to work. > SSH from the mountain to the PC/linksys, kermit to PDP. I use a hardware TELNET <> LAT gateway, so I don't have to deal with power hungry multiplexors, serial cables, and baud rate limitations. Of course, since he's probably running V5A, he couldn't get that fancy. However, a plain ol' terminal server would be much easier to implement. Set the router to direct TELNET traffic to the terminal server, and voila ! T From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Apr 22 07:09:10 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:09:10 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >At 9:13 PM -0700 4/21/11, CRC wrote: > >> A friend desires to leave the hot desert this summer and move to the >> cool mountain and yet maintain contact with his PDP11 with which he >> still runs his business. He has a rotten phone connection, but good >> internet. He runs a highly modified version of RTST 5x and cannot >> reasonably move his stable 30 y/o applications to later/other OS's. I >> would appreciate knowing what the listers use to accomplish same. > > I would recommend running the E11 PDP-11 emulator on a laptop. Though > based on what you describe, I think SIMH could work just as well. > Honestly I'd recommend moving it over to an emulator anyway if he's > running his business off of it. It's one thing for those of us here > to run PDP-11 hardware of that vintage as a hobby, it's another thing > to depend on it for your livelihood. What type of drives is he using? I strongly agree with Zane that a shift to an emulator should be done if at all possible. My assumption is that the actual operating system is RSTS/E V5.x which probably runs on RL01 / RL02 drives based on 1980 type hardware. RX01 / RX02 floppy disk drives were also popular. Both E11 and SIMH support these hardware devices. However, if your friend is using disk drives which are non-standard from DEC hardware, then all bets are off. The other area of concern is the terminal interface. E11 offers support for VT100 emulation built into the emulator. SIMH does not. Finally, there is the cost. Since your friend is running a commercial for profit system, switching to new hardware legally requires a new license. More difficult will be the question of where to send a cheque to to pay for the license since Mentec no longer operates in a transparent mode. In addition, while SIMH is free, E11 is licensed software and requires a license to be purchased for commercial systems. If your friend does switch to E11, the increased productivity and decreased costs of operation should pay for the move in a few years. > The following webpage desperately needs updated, but should point you > in the right direction. > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp11emu.html While I could help with an RT-11 system, RSTS/E is beyond my knowledge base. If you specify the hardware environment (disk drives, terminals and internet), additional suggestions can be made. Jerome Fine From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Apr 22 07:45:43 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 08:45:43 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival East Teletype Workshop Update Message-ID: <201104221246.p3MCjwA5020013@billY.EZWIND.NET> The workshop will have persons of all skill levels, including individuals with 40+ years experience in attendance. The "Teletype 101" is expanding into a workshop for all experience levels. Whatever your skill level there should be someone who can help you. I will be bringing an SWTPc 6800 or a PDP 11 as a demo unit, depends on space, etc. If you buy a teletype, you can work on it/get help on the spot - a good deal! Here is the official email about the teletypes. Please read this over carefully. PLEASE SEND INQUIRIES TO ME DIRECTLY (if the below does not answer your questions). Bill Degnan billdeg-at-aol.com A Vice Pres. M.A.R.C.H. -------------------------------------------------------------- THERE IS NO SHIPPING - PICKUP ONLY 1. If you have not done so already pick a teletype from the photos here http://www.midatlanticretro.org/teletypes/ 2. The prices are labeled on the photos: Selling prices: $100 TTY (best cond. has stand, chad paper catch, sheet holder, rare ) $75 TTY (complete/good cond no stand) $75 TTY (fair condition but has stand) $50 TTY (poor cond. / incomplete / parts) 3. There are two ways to get your choice of teletype a. Register for the workshop/Pick up at VCF http://www.vintage.org/2011/east/workshop.php?action=select&id=149 In addition to the workshop itself, your $40 also gets you: - Entry into the drawing to win a free "serviceable" teletype. - $40 applied to the purchase of a teletype, "dibs" in the order of registration (first to register = first to pick from what's available, second, etc.). - If you do not show up for the workshop you lose your place in line but the $40 can be applied to a purchase from what's available. - The $40 deposit is non-refundable. NOTE: You have to make the remaining balance due payment in order to take possession of your teletype. b. Purchase outright/Pick up any time - If you don't want to wait until the workshop, you can buy a teletype outright by paying full price in advance of the VCF. First come first served. - I will mark the photos with the names of the purchaser after payment has been received. - Visit the link below and click on the "donate" button to enter the Mid-Atlantic Retro web site PayPal account to make payment. http://marchclub.org/ 4. How to take posession of your TTY: The teletypes are located in the Mid Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists' Computer Museum which is located in the InfoAge Science Center of Wall, NJ. For directions see http://infoage.org/html/visit.html#directions Payment (see 3 above) Pickup Before VCF Weekend InfoAge Sundays when MARCH has someone there at the museum pick teletype assuming they have paid the full price (paypal). Pickup on VCF Weekend: Persons can pay $40 in advance to reserve a TTY, and it's their choice whether they attend the workshop. The $40 goes towards the purchase price of a TTY. One must pay the balance due to take possession of their TTY. Pickup After VCF Weekend Persons can visit InfoAge Sundays when MARCH has someone there at the museum to buy and take home a teletype assuming they have paid the full price (paypal). There is no shipping available. -end- From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Apr 22 07:54:33 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:54:33 +0200 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <8CDCEF8FAFBEA90-1E34-102CD@webmail-d050.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDCEF8FAFBEA90-1E34-102CD@webmail-d050.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110422125433.GB18845@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 07:38:48AM -0400, tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > > > > > > >> A friend desires to leave the hot desert this summer and move to the > >> cool mountain and yet maintain contact with his PDP11 with which he > >> still runs his business. He has a rotten phone connection, but good > >> internet. He runs a highly modified version of RTST 5x and cannot > >> reasonably move his stable 30 y/o applications to later/other OS's. I > >> would appreciate knowing what the listers use to accomplish same. > > > A relatively lightweight PC at his business, with internet access and a > > serial port, running linux and kermit, should get him access. For > > certain values of soldering in the missing serial port, even one of the > > linux-based linksys routers could probably be made to work. > > > SSH from the mountain to the PC/linksys, kermit to PDP. > > > I use a hardware TELNET <> LAT gateway, so I don't have to deal with > power hungry multiplexors, serial cables, and baud rate limitations. > > Of course, since he's probably running V5A, he couldn't get that fancy. > > > However, a plain ol' terminal server would be much easier to implement. > Set the router to direct TELNET traffic to the terminal server, and voila ! It would still be a good idea to encrypt the traffic going over the internet. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 22 08:04:47 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 06:04:47 -0700 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com> References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> On 4/21/11 10:11 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > My longest episode without sleep was an intern call where I got no rest > for 36 hours. Nearly went into the center divider driving back to my > apartment. Hope my overnight admission orders didn't kill anyone. > So what does this hazing accomplish, beyond it being 'tradition'? I worked at the Medical College of Wisconsin for a few years, and I never understood why they do this to interns. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 22 09:31:04 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 07:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Apr 22, 11 06:04:47 am" Message-ID: <201104221431.p3MEV45K014292@floodgap.com> > > My longest episode without sleep was an intern call where I got no rest > > for 36 hours. Nearly went into the center divider driving back to my > > apartment. Hope my overnight admission orders didn't kill anyone. > > So what does this hazing accomplish, beyond it being 'tradition'? > I worked at the Medical College of Wisconsin for a few years, and I never > understood why they do this to interns. The resident work hours law, which was only incompletely implemented when I was an intern, has helped this somewhat (but some places still operate in flagrant violation). That said, I don't think that there should be significant further reductions or true shift work. Maybe I'm already in get-off-my-lawn mode, but I'm probably more old-fashioned than the rest of my generation, and I think that overnight work -- with a reasonable cap, and the cap is currently 30 hours or less with an overnight break -- reinforces ownership of the case. You don't just write orders with an eye to hand the crap you couldn't finish off to the day guy; you try to solve the patient's problems because they are your problems and the patient doesn't get better unless you, Dr. First Year Intern, do something about it. The current emphasis towards shift work and a "team" approach actually probably makes lazy doctors. Just my two cents, but most of the nurses said I was kind of a cowboy as a resident anyway. I still have that tendency. Still, it's better than it was before. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. -- M. L. King, Jr. --- From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 22 10:40:10 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:40:10 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [alt.folklore.compute...] PDP11GUI: Home page has moved Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:35:24 +0200 Groups: alt.folklore.computers,de.alt.folklore.computer,alt.sys.pdp11 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?J=F6rg_Hoppe?= Org: albasani.net Subject: PDP11GUI: Home page has moved Id: ======== Home page and online doc of PDP11GUI have moved to www.retrocmp.com/tools/pdp11gui The download is an attachement now. The old page is still alive, but will disappear without further notice. Enjoy! Joerg Hoppe From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 22 11:39:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 09:39:06 -0700 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com>, <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2011 at 6:04, Al Kossow wrote: > So what does this hazing accomplish, beyond it being 'tradition'? I > worked at the Medical College of Wisconsin for a few years, and I > never understood why they do this to interns. ...and they wonder why some people are fearful of physicians... Would you fly as a passenger on a jet whose pilots pulled 30 hour shifts routinely? I wouldn't--hell, I wouldn't ride on a bus whose driver was pulling a 3-day no-sleep shift. Of course, having a dopey-from-no-sleep intern order drugs and perform procedures on your person couldn't possibly go wrong, could it? --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Apr 22 12:49:43 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:49:43 -0500 Subject: OT: Re: internships In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 4/22/11, Chuck wrote: >Would you fly as a passenger on a jet whose pilots pulled 30 hour >shifts routinely? I wouldn't--hell, I wouldn't ride on a bus whose >driver was pulling a 3-day no-sleep shift. ... Chuck, you are right on the money. Cameron, you know I like you, but the way interns are abused is pure simple insanity. Heck, pick almost any "operator error" disaster you care to name - Chernobyl, Exxon Valdez, whatever - and odds are >> 80% that you will find someone either operating outside normal work hours or who had been recently doing so. On the last full mission I participated in, we made 4 critical errors during integration and test, any one of which could have damaged the spacecraft or terminated the mission - and *every one* of which was made outside normal working hours. Your own post that started this thread contained the phrase "Hope my overnight admission orders didn't kill anyone." Would you say that about any other part of your work? Would you want your loved ones admitted or treated by someone under those conditions? I admit there are conditions where doctors have to work long hours; I watched M*A*S*H just like everyone else. But *training* doctors to do that at the expense of patients' safety during normal times is dangerously bad policy, particularly considering the tiny percentage of doctors who will ever consent to work that way anytime during their professional lives. It's also educationally counterproductive, as anyone who has ever crammed overnight knows. Why and how the medical community, who has the best knowledge available of what physiological effects result from long-term sleep deprivation, ever allowed this practice, to say nothing of institutionalizing it, is beyond mystery and into mysterious evil as far as I'm concerned. I don't guess hospitals should be shut down but I think it would be a really good idea to take a few administrators and schedulers each month, ceremonially break legs or induce other disorders, and then admit them on the 36th hour of a new intern's first overnight shift. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 13:19:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:19:15 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 8:09 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Both E11 and SIMH support these hardware devices. However, > if your friend is using disk drives which are non-standard from DEC > hardware, then all bets are off. Nearly all third-party controllers for DEC systems emulated DEC controllers, so this is not likely to be a problem. > The other area of concern is the terminal interface. E11 offers > support for VT100 emulation built into the emulator. SIMH > does not. Once again, this only comes into play if you're using Windows. On no other platform is this even relevant. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Apr 22 13:40:59 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:40:59 -0400 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork Message-ID: http://www.mhtest.com/ has done it before, maybe you won't even have to send them your boards :) For many purposes I think I'd be happy with a good 600 DPI color scan of both sides (including silkscreen). I don't think that modern PCB processes will by default produce a board that "looks like" an Altair era board (I remember the silkscreen actually covering tinned solder pads.) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 22 13:52:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:52:16 -0700 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB16BF0.11864.8CBE46@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2011 at 14:40, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > For many purposes I think I'd be happy with a good 600 DPI color scan > of both sides (including silkscreen). I don't think that modern PCB > processes will by default produce a board that "looks like" an Altair > era board (I remember the silkscreen actually covering tinned solder > pads.) It might--you'd just have to leave off the resist and print the silkscreen on the bare tinned board. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 13:27:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:27:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 21, 11 06:35:54 pm Message-ID: > > Most world records for endurance have breaks built in. I am quite sure that most of us here have spend more than 276 hours of our lives typing something. Of course we've done other things in between. If you're going to allow breaks, then IMHO the whole contest is meaningless. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 13:28:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:28:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Apr 21, 11 05:45:51 pm Message-ID: > >> Drop the design into an FPGA and you go from several huge boards full of > >> TTL to one Eurocard, an FPGA, and a couple of RAM chips. > > > > With nowhere to connect the 'scope and logic analyser to debug it, no > > interesting signals to look at... Might as well jsut buy a modern PC. > > > > /me surrounds Tony with a ring of "Keep off the lawn!" signs Can you explain, please? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 13:35:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:35:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <4DB0D458.2030809@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 22, 11 02:05:28 am Message-ID: > > On 21/04/11 22:02, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Drop the design into an FPGA and you go from several huge boards full of > >> TTL to one Eurocard, an FPGA, and a couple of RAM chips. > > > > With nowhere to connect the 'scope and logic analyser to debug it, no > > interesting signals to look at... Might as well jsut buy a modern PC. > > Go look up "ChipScope" and "SignalTap II". > > Then tell me you can't spy on the internal logic of an FPGA. I never said you couldn't monitor internal signals, I said you can't connectr a 'scope or logic analyser to interesting points in the circuitry. And from waht you say below, these tools are none-too-reliable. The last thing I need when I am debuggign something it so be unable to trust my instruments. Or as I found when using one version of the Xylinx tools many years ago 'Is that glitch a real one, or is it something the simulator has come up with...' > > If you really want to use a standalone logic analyser (I often do > because it tends to be more reliable) then there's always the option of > pulling a couple of pins out onto solder pads. The 1.27mm TESTPADs in Ah yes.... But be very careful doing this. The 'wires' in an FPGA are not direcrt connecitons, they go through various routing swithces, which introduce delays. If you add connections to monitor internal signals, it's very likely other signals will be rerouted and will havw their delays changed. If your design is dodgy to start with, you may find glitches come and go when you do this. And of course you can only modify the design to bring out signals if you have the origianl design files (VHDL, schematics, whatever). As I said, i know you provide such things, but they can get lost. Whereas I have, on many coccasions, debugged large boards of SSI/MSI parts with no docuemtnatiuon at all. > the EAGLE base libraries work quite well IME. Big enough to be easy to > solder to, small enough that they don't take up much board space. > > The DiscFerret ICSP header is as big as it is for one reason only: I still don;t get this desire to make things as small as possible. What is the great advantage? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 13:25:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:25:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 In-Reply-To: from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 21, 11 07:23:13 pm Message-ID: > > >..and I believe that the endurance record for typing is 276 hours, > >but I don't know what the rules were. > > 11+ days wake (woke? waked? Sorry)??? I doubt it :) And I doubt anyone could exist that long without drinking (not eating, maybe). Or, indeed, doing other natural functions. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 22 14:20:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:20:54 -0700 Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 21, 11 06:35:54 pm, Message-ID: <4DB172A6.21950.A6F630@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2011 at 19:27, Tony Duell wrote: > I am quite sure that most of us here have spend more than 276 hours of > our lives typing something. Of course we've done other things in > between. If you're going to allow breaks, then IMHO the whole contest > is meaningless. Most Guiness "records" are meaningless. Some years ago, there was a text on how to devise your own record category. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 14:24:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:24:41 -0400 Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB1D5F9.4060204@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 2:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Most world records for endurance have breaks built in. > > I am quite sure that most of us here have spend more than 276 hours of > our lives typing something. Of course we've done other things in between. If > you're going to allow breaks, then IMHO the whole contest is meaningless. Oh hell, I spend that much time typing in two months. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 14:31:30 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:31:30 +0100 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <042101cc0123$e2c49940$a84dcbc0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 22 April 2011 19:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Serial Port Web Server > > On 4/22/11 8:09 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Both E11 and SIMH support these hardware devices. However, if your > > friend is using disk drives which are non-standard from DEC hardware, > > then all bets are off. > > Nearly all third-party controllers for DEC systems emulated DEC > controllers, so this is not likely to be a problem. > > > The other area of concern is the terminal interface. E11 offers > > support for VT100 emulation built into the emulator. SIMH does not. > > Once again, this only comes into play if you're using Windows. On no > other platform is this even relevant. Why is this relevant to Windows only? SIMH is the pretty much the same code on all platforms and does not offer VT100 emulation on any platform as far as I know. Do you mean that E11 (I am not familiar with this software) offers VT100 emulation on all platforms except Windows? Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 22 14:44:50 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com>, <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> <4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> > So what does this hazing accomplish, beyond it being 'tradition'? I > worked at the Medical College of Wisconsin for a few years, and I > never understood why they do this to interns. They rationalize it as being a test of endurance, stamina, and stress handling, but it's primarily just "getting even" for the treatment that they had. Having been mistreated that way, they retaliate by doing it to the next generation. First form of medical burnout: hazing Second: frustration of dealing with the bean-counters Third: losing patients, and realization that the state of the art isn't really what it is hyped as It is certainly not unique to the medical profession. But few non-military fields are as vicious. In auto repair, the newbie would be sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, and a metric Crescent wrench (all of which actually exist). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 22 14:53:23 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 12:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110422125131.D15936@shell.lmi.net> > > >..and I believe that the endurance record for typing is 276 hours, > > >but I don't know what the rules were. > > 11+ days wake (woke? waked? Sorry)??? I doubt it :) On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > And I doubt anyone could exist that long without drinking (not eating, > maybe). Or, indeed, doing other natural functions. But, with support and accommodations (such as a really long extension cord), many functions could be done with little or no interruption. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 14:54:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:54:15 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <042101cc0123$e2c49940$a84dcbc0$@ntlworld.com> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> <042101cc0123$e2c49940$a84dcbc0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 3:31 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >>> The other area of concern is the terminal interface. E11 offers >>> support for VT100 emulation built into the emulator. SIMH does >>> not. >> >> Once again, this only comes into play if you're using Windows. On >> no other platform is this even relevant. > > Why is this relevant to Windows only? SIMH is the pretty much the > same code on all platforms and does not offer VT100 emulation on any > platform as far as I know. Exactly. The need for a terminal emulator is a limitation of Windows. SIMH runs in the terminal under which the user started it. On platforms that have no other way to execute a program, this means some sort of terminal interface would need to be built into SIMH. When the Windows "double click" method is used to start SIMH, it uses the same mostly-useless window interface that cmd.exe brings up. All other platforms SIMH runs on have the ability to execute a program under a real terminal interface, whose terminal emulation protocol can be used to support software running on the emulated systems that make use of cursor addressing or other advanced terminal features. If one had a good terminal emulator under Windows, and Windows had the ability to arbitrarily tie program character I/O to the I/O interfaces of the terminal emulator (note that "terminal emulator" means "program that emulates a terminal", not "program that talks to a serial port") then Windows-based SIMH would have the same capability as the rest of the world. As far as I'm aware, Windows has no such capability. This is probably the third time I've explained this. It's a seriously two-syllable concept that I'm amazed has required even ONE explanation in a crowd of people who purport to know something about how computers work. > Do you mean that E11 (I am not familiar with this software) offers > VT100 emulation on all platforms except Windows? No, that wasn't what I meant at all. What I meant was that peoples' repeated assertions that SIMH not coming with its own bundled terminal emulator is somehow a "limitation" is complete and utter bunk. And even THIS only applies when you're working exclusively on the (emulated) console of the system. This is why Jerome keeps running into this; his focus is RT-11 which is almost always used exclusively from the system console. All other mainstream PDP-11 operating systems are designed for multi-terminal use, and the console is only (supposed to be) used for maintenance-type stuff like startup and shutdown. You can map, say, a DH11 to a TCP port, and use a Windows-based terminal emulator that speaks the telnet protocol to access a "user" (as distinguished from "console") terminal in such a configuration. SIMH even supports access to the console itself via a TCP port, rendering the argument for console terminal emulation even less relevant. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 14:56:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:56:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: In-Reply-To: <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 22, 11 12:44:50 pm Message-ID: > It is certainly not unique to the medical profession. But few > non-military fields are as vicious. In auto repair, the newbie would be > sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, and a metric Crescent wrench (all > of which actually exist). When I stareted (physics) research, they sent me to get a 'bucket of steam'. Of coruse I realised it was a hoax, but decided to play along. I got a bucket and filled it to adepth of about 2cm with water. Carried it up to the hoaxer and poured it over him with the comment 'sorry, it condensed on the way up here'. My favourite thing to send people to stores for was a 'monochromatic white light source' :-) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 15:00:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:00:40 -0400 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com>, <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> <4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com> <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB1DE68.6000700@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 3:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > It is certainly not unique to the medical profession. But few > non-military fields are as vicious. In auto repair, the newbie would be > sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, and a metric Crescent wrench (all > of which actually exist). In the casino industry, it is common to send newbies to other casinos to get the "crank" for the Big Six wheel. Big Six wheels are motor-driven and have no crank. Employees at other casinos know this trick of course, and sometimes send the newbie back with things like broken umbrella handles, etc. It's all in good fun, and is far less brutal (and dangerous to all involved) than forcing newbies to work three days straight in a life-critical environment. That shit is dangerous to all involved, especially the patients, and it's just plain inexcusable. I find it amazing that the otherwise-got-their-nose-into-just-about-everything AMA never seems to say anything about it. In an industry where most people (no offense intended to Cameron) have a VERY high opinions of their own abilities and their own levels of professionalism, it's amazing that this kind of crap happens. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 15:01:11 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:01:11 -0400 Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 In-Reply-To: <20110422125131.D15936@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110422125131.D15936@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB1DE87.8090204@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 3:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> ..and I believe that the endurance record for typing is 276 hours, >>>> but I don't know what the rules were. >>> 11+ days wake (woke? waked? Sorry)??? I doubt it :) > >> And I doubt anyone could exist that long without drinking (not eating, >> maybe). Or, indeed, doing other natural functions. > > But, with support and accommodations (such as a really long extension > cord), many functions could be done with little or no interruption. Extension cords, or extension hoses.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 22 15:02:03 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:02:03 -0400 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB1DEBB.5080402@atarimuseum.com> What about places that can take existing PC board films and run new boards from them, anyplace that still works with full sized pc board films? Shoppa, Tim wrote: > http://www.mhtest.com/ has done it before, maybe you won't even have to send them your boards :) > > For many purposes I think I'd be happy with a good 600 DPI color scan of both sides (including silkscreen). I don't think that modern PCB processes will by default produce a board that "looks like" an Altair era board (I remember the silkscreen actually covering tinned solder pads.) > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 22 15:02:44 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:02:44 -0400 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB1DEE4.7000600@atarimuseum.com> ooops, never mind I just went to the mhtest site, and I see they do just that... okay.... Shoppa, Tim wrote: > http://www.mhtest.com/ has done it before, maybe you won't even have to send them your boards :) > > For many purposes I think I'd be happy with a good 600 DPI color scan of both sides (including silkscreen). I don't think that modern PCB processes will by default produce a board that "looks like" an Altair era board (I remember the silkscreen actually covering tinned solder pads.) > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 15:01:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 21:01:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 In-Reply-To: <20110422125131.D15936@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 22, 11 12:53:23 pm Message-ID: > > > > >..and I believe that the endurance record for typing is 276 hours, > > > >but I don't know what the rules were. > > > 11+ days wake (woke? waked? Sorry)??? I doubt it :) > > On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > And I doubt anyone could exist that long without drinking (not eating, > > maybe). Or, indeed, doing other natural functions. > > But, with support and accommodations (such as a really long extension > cord), many functions could be done with little or no interruption. Ah, but in the UK, 'portable' mains powered electrical equipment (defined as not needing a tool to move it) may not legally be used in a bathroom (defined as a room contianing a fixed bath or shower) under most circumstances. I woncder if running a 110V Selectric off a 55-0-55V isolating transformer (centre tap to earth) would be legal in a bathroom over here? -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 15:08:18 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:08:18 -0400 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>?In auto repair, the newbie would be sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, >> and a metric Crescent wrench (all of which actually exist). I'm curious where rubber nails are used. Growing up, I bought the family VW Beetle from the insurance company as salvage after it caught fire. Obviously, it needed work, and I bought my own metric tools. Eventually, my mother wanted me to fix the family car and I deferred, telling her that I only had metric tools (which was true). One time, she wanted me to do some bodywork on her car, something I don't really do much of even on my own car and I tried the "metric tools" line. She said, "it's just a little paint". She gave up when I claimed "I only have metric paint!" > When I stareted (physics) research, they sent me to get a 'bucket of > steam'. Of coruse I realised it was a hoax, but decided to play along. I > got a bucket and filled it to ?adepth of about 2cm with water. Carried it > up to the hoaxer and poured it over him with the comment 'sorry, it > condensed on the way up here'. Nice. > My favourite thing to send people to stores for was a 'monochromatic > white light source' :-) Heh. A buddy of mine worked as a cameraman in the film inudstry - he used to sent new guys out to the van for the film stretcher (the excuse being that regular 35mm cassettes only hold about 12 min of footage, but you can get 14 minutes, 15 if you're lucky, with the film stretcher). In carpentry, I hear it's the board stretcher. Every industry has something. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 15:07:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:07:49 -0400 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 2:40 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > For many purposes I think I'd be happy with a good 600 DPI color scan > of both sides (including silkscreen). I'd love copies of those scans, if they end up being done. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 15:12:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:12:52 -0400 Subject: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB1E144.7040200@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 4:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Ah, but in the UK, 'portable' mains powered electrical equipment (defined > as not needing a tool to move it) may not legally be used in a bathroom > (defined as a room contianing a fixed bath or shower) under most > circumstances. > > I woncder if running a 110V Selectric off a 55-0-55V isolating > transformer (centre tap to earth) would be legal in a bathroom over here? If a cop shows up in MY bathroom, I guarantee any electrical equipment he/she may find in there will be the least offensive thing they'll find. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 15:42:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 21:42:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: In-Reply-To: <4DB1DE68.6000700@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 22, 11 04:00:40 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/22/11 3:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > It is certainly not unique to the medical profession. But few > > non-military fields are as vicious. In auto repair, the newbie would be > > sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, and a metric Crescent wrench (all > > of which actually exist). > > In the casino industry, it is common to send newbies to other casinos > to get the "crank" for the Big Six wheel. Big Six wheels are > motor-driven and have no crank. Employees at other casinos know this > trick of course, and sometimes send the newbie back with things like > broken umbrella handles, etc. > > It's all in good fun, and is far less brutal (and dangerous to all As you may have guessed, I quite like practical jokes. I play them, and I can take them. But... The joke has to be funny to all involved. That means no real danger (to anyone), no major loss or damage. It is not funny if somebody gets connected across a high voltage supply. It's not funny if they end up losing months of results. It's not funny if a patient ends up with the wrong drugs or the wrong doses (even if unintentional). On the other hand, my colour changing adpater (a DE15 plug wired to a DE15 socket with VGA pinouts so that most pins go straight through but the R,G,B signals are cyclically permuted [1] is quite amusing if connectrd to somebody's PC when they are developing a video driver. Well, provided you tell him before he spends too long debugging his code :-) [1] This has a serious use, of course in determining whether a mising colour is due to a problem in the monitor or the video card. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 22 15:51:44 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Drop the design into an FPGA and you go from several huge boards full of >>>> TTL to one Eurocard, an FPGA, and a couple of RAM chips. >>> >>> With nowhere to connect the 'scope and logic analyser to debug it, no >>> interesting signals to look at... Might as well jsut buy a modern PC. >>> >> >> /me surrounds Tony with a ring of "Keep off the lawn!" signs > > Can you explain, please? > It's an amusing (well _I_ thought so) way of relating the stereotypical "You kids! Get of my lawn!" attitude expressed when something new/different/change is presented to someone "entrenched" in their ways. Your statement of " With nowhere to connect the 'scope and logic analyser to debug it, no interesting signals to look at... Might as well jsut buy a modern PC." immediately conjoured(sp!) up a picture in my head of an old man waving his cane and yelling something about "those damn kids and their new fangled gadgets". It made me laugh, so I boiled it down to something that everyone (ok, with one exception apparently) could understand and grin over. Now normally, having to explain a joke ruins it, but in this case, I don't think it applies. Oh and "/me" is an action command that is in common use with IRC, so the resulting line, had it been rendered within an IRC client, would have looked like this: geneb surrounds Tony with a ring of "Keep off the lawn!" signs Enjoy! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 15:52:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 21:52:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 22, 11 04:08:18 pm Message-ID: > A buddy of mine worked as a cameraman in the film inudstry - he used > to sent new guys out to the van for the film stretcher (the excuse > being that regular 35mm cassettes only hold about 12 min of footage, > but you can get 14 minutes, 15 if you're lucky, with the film > stretcher). In carpentry, I hear it's the board stretcher. Every The 'cable stretcher' is another one (for when you've cut the wire a little too short ;-)), although of course a tool for tensioning cables when running overhead lines does esixt. The 'noise emitting diode' (by analogy with a 'light emitting diode') is another thing to get newbies to attempt to order ;-) And there's a well-known set of diagrams of non-existant screws -- things like a screw with a step in the middle for use when the holes don't line up. Again, newbies are often sent out to get a box of items from said list. The reverse of this joke is to ask for things that genuinely do exist but sound like they shouldn't. 'All pass filters' for example. Newbies who think they can spot a joke a mile off generally assume this is another spoof... > industry has something. Indeed. The poiint is, though that in all these examples, the newbie has a little time wasted and gets a bit embarassed, but that's all. No real damage, no danger. WHich is rather different to keeping somebody working for 30 hours doing a job that could result in loss of life if it's not done properly. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 22 15:58:30 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <4DB1DE68.6000700@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 22, 11 04:00:40 pm" Message-ID: <201104222058.p3MKwULd015240@floodgap.com> > In an industry where most people (no offense intended to Cameron) > have a VERY high opinions of their own abilities and their own levels of > professionalism, it's amazing that this kind of crap happens. The surgeons have it worse. My kid sister is a trauma surgery resident, for example. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Now you see why evil will always win, because good is dumb. -- "Spaceballs" From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 22 15:56:22 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:56:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> The DiscFerret ICSP header is as big as it is for one reason only: > > I still don;t get this desire to make things as small as possible. What > is the great advantage? > Because board space is expensive! Some board houses even charge by the drill! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 22 16:00:55 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: References: <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110422133446.H15936@shell.lmi.net> > >>?In auto repair, the newbie would be sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, > >> and a metric Crescent wrench (all of which actually exist). On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm curious where rubber nails are used. attaching rubber weather stripping to wood. "Rubber nails" are made of steel :-( GM (and others) made spray cans of "splatter spots" paint for the interior of trunks It has been several decades since I used a Crescent [adjustable] wrench, due to my obsession with using properly fitting wrenches, but I have 100mm and 150mm Crescent wrenches, if I ever need them. BTW, since "Crescent Wrench" and "Vise-grips" are trademarked brand names that have become commonly misused to refer to any manufacturer's product that resembles them, what do you call the Stanley adjustable [Crescent Style] wrench that has a [Vise-Grips style] lever that takes up the slack and clamps/locks it? > Every industry has something. I don't know how or why auto repair ended up with "rubber nails" - it has been a very long time since auto bodies were made of wood. But, the great part about it, is that unlike the bucket of steam, board stretcher, etc., rubber nails, spotted paint, and metric crescent wrenches exist. So, once the newbie realizes that it is hazing and states that it's non-existent, s/he can be further humiliated by being shown to be wrong. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 16:04:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:04:12 -0400 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <201104222058.p3MKwULd015240@floodgap.com> References: <201104222058.p3MKwULd015240@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DB1ED4C.8040604@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 4:58 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> In an industry where most people (no offense intended to Cameron) >> have a VERY high opinions of their own abilities and their own levels of >> professionalism, it's amazing that this kind of crap happens. > > The surgeons have it worse. My kid sister is a trauma surgery resident, > for example. And they don't think there's something wrong (and unprofessional) about this practice? It looks (to the layperson) that it's so deeply ingrained in the culture that it has become acceptable and expected. Do the people involved just view it as an acceptable risk, or do they think there just isn't any risk? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 22 16:07:40 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <4DB1DE68.6000700@neurotica.com> References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com>, <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> <4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com> <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> <4DB1DE68.6000700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > > In an industry where most people (no offense intended to Cameron) have a > VERY high opinions of their own abilities and their own levels of > professionalism, it's amazing that this kind of crap happens. > I think it boils down to the knuckle dragging attitude of, "If *I* had to do it, then so do *YOU*." g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 22 16:26:17 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> References: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/22/11 2:40 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> For many purposes I think I'd be happy with a good 600 DPI color scan >> of both sides (including silkscreen). > > I'd love copies of those scans, if they end up being done. > Didn't Grant Stockly(ley?) do a full board set a few years ago for the Altair? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 22 16:30:05 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <4DB1ED4C.8040604@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 22, 11 05:04:12 pm" Message-ID: <201104222130.p3MLU51O014176@floodgap.com> > > > In an industry where most people (no offense intended to Cameron) > > > have a VERY high opinions of their own abilities and their own levels of > > > professionalism, it's amazing that this kind of crap happens. > > > > The surgeons have it worse. My kid sister is a trauma surgery resident, > > for example. > > And they don't think there's something wrong (and unprofessional) > about this practice? It looks (to the layperson) that it's so deeply > ingrained in the culture that it has become acceptable and expected. Do > the people involved just view it as an acceptable risk, or do they think > there just isn't any risk? I'm certainly not going to defend it. But I'll say this as devil's public defense attorney bucking for a reduced sentence in return for a guilty plea that there is an old joke in surgery residency: "Why does being on call q2 [every other night] suck?" "Because you miss half the cases." For concentrated, high-pressure experience, the overnight call is still the way that residents learn, particularly those low on the totem pole such as interns and sub-i's, because during the day there are attendings and senior residents and other services competing for what's on the schedule. At night it's you, maybe the senior, and you're first on the battle lines. You learn quickly and you get to do more because you're there. There has been some consideration of night float programs, but daysleeping has its own unique issues, and as I say I'm concerned about shift work in residency translating into doctors with poor followthru as offendings, I mean, attendings. I'm saying that not just as ye primary care doc shooting off his mouth, but also a former chief resident and the academic program coordinator in my particular department. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Microsoft Windows is the IBM 3270 of the 21st century. --------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 22 16:34:36 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: <20110422133446.H15936@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> <20110422133446.H15936@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't know how or why auto repair ended up with "rubber nails" - it has > been a very long time since auto bodies were made of wood. > > But, the great part about it, is that unlike the bucket of steam, board > stretcher, etc., rubber nails, spotted paint, and metric crescent wrenches > exist. So, once the newbie realizes that it is hazing and states that > it's non-existent, s/he can be further humiliated by being shown to be > wrong. > Left handed pipe wrenches are another fun one. (or a spool of flight line, a box of grid squares, etc.) I had a 5 gallon bucket behind a telco rack years ago. It caught water from a roof leak, but I told everyone it was there to catch dropped packets. :) BTW, they actually do make plastic nails that are used in pnumatic brad nailers... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From shumaker at att.net Fri Apr 22 17:05:15 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:05:15 -0700 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> References: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB1FB9B.6070700@att.net> actually seems like something appropriate for inclusion with the manuals on bitsavers..... steve On 4/22/2011 1:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/22/11 2:40 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> For many purposes I think I'd be happy with a good 600 DPI color scan >> of both sides (including silkscreen). > > I'd love copies of those scans, if they end up being done. > > -Dave > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Apr 22 17:07:10 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <201104222130.p3MLU51O014176@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <845040.45480.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > For concentrated, high-pressure experience, the overnight > call is still the > way that residents learn, particularly those low on the > totem pole such as > interns and sub-i's, because during the day there are > attendings and senior > residents and other services competing for what's on the > schedule. At night > it's you, maybe the senior, and you're first on the battle > lines. You learn > quickly and you get to do more because you're there. > > and as I say I'm concerned about > shift work in > residency translating into doctors with poor followthru as > offendings, I > mean, attendings. I also don't want to defend it all, and I would suspect that there's a better way to do it, but there is one other benefit I see to the forced endurance. If I have a surgeon doing an 8, 10, or 12 hour procedure on me, I like the idea that the length of time that person needs to be focused and alert is much shorter than the lengths of time that person was dealing with more typical cases during their internship. Also, I suspect that when it comes to the question of accuracy and judgement during long shifts, there are probably bigger factors than just time awake. I learned early on that my coding ability isn't a monotonically decreasing function of time since last sleep. BLS From technobug at comcast.net Fri Apr 22 17:23:39 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:23:39 -0700 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C1E7303-4808-43D3-BA36-620ACC567D92@comcast.net> On hu, 21 Apr 2011 21:33:22 -0700: "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 9:13 PM -0700 4/21/11, CRC wrote: >> A friend desires to leave the hot desert this summer and move to the >> cool mountain and yet maintain contact with his PDP11 with which he >> still runs his business. He has a rotten phone connection, but good >> internet. He runs a highly modified version of RTST 5x and cannot >> reasonably move his stable 30 y/o applications to later/other OS's. >> I would appreciate knowing what the listers use to accomplish same. >> >> -> CRC > > I would recommend running the E11 PDP-11 emulator on a laptop. > Though based on what you describe, I think SIMH could work just as > well. Honestly I'd recommend moving it over to an emulator anyway if > he's running his business off of it. It's one thing for those of us > here to run PDP-11 hardware of that vintage as a hobby, it's another > thing to depend on it for your livelihood. What type of drives is he > using? > > The following webpage desperately needs updated, but should point you > in the right direction. > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp11emu.html E11 has been seriously looked at in the past, but the required additions and money constraints nixed going in that direction. Whenever time permits he has been looking at alternates to the current hardware. However, this system which has a rack of Fuji Eagles and a number of tape decks, has been running without much repair maintenance for the last several decades. We recently had to work on one of the Fujis and now are in the process of shot-gunning all the caps. We were totally amazed when one of the drives became flakey and found that nearly all the caps were bad - luckily Earl W. Muntz didn't work for Fuji... However, the current problem is not transporting the applications, but contacting the current system. Remember that RSTS is multiuser and he has no intention of also transporting his drones that also access the computer to the cool mountains with him :) There are also a number of customers that dial in to get access to data. Has anyone used any of the serial port ethernet servers (aka port directors) and how well did they work? -> CRC From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 22 17:27:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:27:22 -0700 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <845040.45480.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <201104222130.p3MLU51O014176@floodgap.com>, <845040.45480.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DB19E5A.10794.151AE0B@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2011 at 15:07, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > I also don't want to defend it all, and I would suspect > that there's a better way to do it, but there is one other > benefit I see to the forced endurance. If I have a surgeon > doing an 8, 10, or 12 hour procedure on me, I like the > idea that the length of time that person needs to be focused > and alert is much shorter than the lengths of time that > person was dealing with more typical cases during their > internship. > > Also, I suspect that when it comes to the question of > accuracy and judgement during long shifts, there are > probably bigger factors than just time awake. I learned > early on that my coding ability isn't a monotonically > decreasing function of time since last sleep. Would you make the same argument for airline crews? Or flight controllers? Or are those "too" risky--if someone zones out because of fatigue, hudreds could die, but there's only a single life at stake in medical procedures? Makes me feel a lot better... --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 22 18:20:38 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:20:38 +0100 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com>, <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> <4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com> <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB20D46.4040503@philpem.me.uk> On 22/04/11 20:44, Fred Cisin wrote: > First form of medical burnout: hazing > Second: frustration of dealing with the bean-counters > Third: losing patients, and realization that the state of the art isn't > really what it is hyped as > > > It is certainly not unique to the medical profession. But few > non-military fields are as vicious. Retail is one of them. First form of burnout: self-entitled customers who insist that they're right, even though they (and the guy behind the counter) know that in this case, The Customer Is Wrong. Second form of burnout: beancounters. I've had to submit an expenses form four separate times to get it approved. First they didn't like my signature, second time they didn't think it matched the one on my work contract, third time they didn't think my numbers added up (I told them to get a calculator... "but it's already been rejected, just resubmit it")... and the last time they finally got the hint and accepted the damn thing. The total damage? ?34 for a train ticket, and ?1.30 for a Manchester Metrolink ticket. Third form of burnout: Unreachable KPIs ("Key Performance Indicators"). "Make 20% more in sales than last year, or you're fired." "Every $PRODUCT must be sold with 20% by value of other $PRODUCTs, or you have to call the Regional Manager and explain yourself". All stick, no carrot. There's no bonus for meeting the target, only a punishment for *not* meeting target. Staff turnover rate is roughly four in six months. I'm the second longest serving member of staff in the store, and I'm off to pastures new at the end of May. Thank $DEITY. > In auto repair, the newbie would be > sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, and a metric Crescent wrench (all > of which actually exist). The ones I heard a lot were "a bucket of welder's sparks" and "a large can of Tartan paint" :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 22 18:36:35 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 16:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <4DB19E5A.10794.151AE0B@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 22, 11 03:27:22 pm" Message-ID: <201104222336.p3MNaZ8a015326@floodgap.com> > > Also, I suspect that when it comes to the question of > > accuracy and judgement during long shifts, there are > > probably bigger factors than just time awake. I learned > > early on that my coding ability isn't a monotonically > > decreasing function of time since last sleep. > > Would you make the same argument for airline crews? Or flight > controllers? Or are those "too" risky--if someone zones out because > of fatigue, hudreds could die, but there's only a single life at > stake in medical procedures? But is there a good alternate solution other than shorter shifts? Here's the potential downsides: - Lower number of cases seen, requiring either a protracted residency or accepting less skilled graduates. The former seems better than the latter except when you realize how few doctors the American medical school system actually produces, in addition to the real cost of residents having to defer their debts longer. Medical education is highly experiential. This is a bigger problem for surgical programs, but still for medicine/peds/etc. - The subtle shift in medical focus from patient to task. Much is said (and I will not give my opinion on it) in the current "health reform bill" about improving outcomes. This sounds great. Almost nobody wants this as a patient however, because the doctor doesn't see you as you but rather as a goal that must be reached or a disease state that must be quelled. Losing the commitment to the patient only furthers the perception that doctors don't have time for patients as people any more. It starts when patient work is seen as punching a clock and not a calling. This is not good for patients, and it is not good for the profession. - In a related vein, the loss of complete care awareness. This is squishy and is best explained by what happened after residency work hour reform: more work got slogged off on non-clinical personnel or the doctors remaining on duty. Some of this work was unnecessary scut and no one is sad to see it go. However, a fair bit of it was actual care delivery, and one thing that is very important to witness in residency is the natural progression of disease and cure. I know what to expect of a post-op because I saw the patient in the pre-op clinic, in the OR (on my surgery rotation), in the hospital if we had to admit them, and in the post-op clinic when they left. Pieces of this are missing otherwise. You don't know what that wound is supposed to look like on post-op day #2. You don't know that this is an expected effect of medication Y. You may not realize you don't know this until you get out of residency. Mind you, I'm still not saying that crazy-ass long hours in internship is wise. Clearly it is not, and clearly the practice as a whole was excessive (I was at a program that was comparatively kind to its residents, for which I was grateful, because some programs border on abuse). But bad as it is, I think that it is as good as it gets, because erring on the other side tends to have more subtle, long-range effects. Medicine is a dangerous profession for patients (spoken as an MD). New doctors have to start somewhere, and you don't want them turning out badly. I am forever grateful to the patients who knew I was a resident, and saw me anyway. The ones in the hospital didn't have a choice. The ones in the office did. When I graduated from residency, the first thing that struck me as a new junior attending was how little I actually knew. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computers are like air conditioners. They stop working if you open windows. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Apr 22 18:47:06 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:47:06 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> <042101cc0123$e2c49940$a84dcbc0$@ntlworld.com> <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB2137A.6060909@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > >On 4/22/11 3:31 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >>>> The other area of concern is the terminal interface. E11 offers >>>> support for VT100 emulation built into the emulator. SIMH does not >>> >>> Once again, this only comes into play if you're using Windows. On >>> no other platform is this even relevant. >> Just to make a note, at one point SIMH did offer enough VT100 emulation (V2.9-11) to at least make the situation friendly to users of the full screen editors and at some level even SL: in RT-11. So it isn't as if VT100 emulation was always rejected out of hand. >> Why is this relevant to Windows only? SIMH is the pretty much the >> same code on all platforms and does not offer VT100 emulation on any >> platform as far as I know. > > Exactly. The need for a terminal emulator is a limitation of Windows. > SIMH runs in the terminal under which the user started it. On > platforms that have no other way to execute a program, this means some > sort of terminal interface would need to be built into SIMH. When the > Windows "double click" method is used to start SIMH, it uses the same > mostly-useless window interface that cmd.exe brings up. All other > platforms SIMH runs on have the ability to execute a program under a > real terminal interface, whose terminal emulation protocol can be used > to support software running on the emulated systems that make use of > cursor addressing or other advanced terminal features. > > If one had a good terminal emulator under Windows, and Windows had the > ability to arbitrarily tie program character I/O to the I/O interfaces > of the terminal emulator (note that "terminal emulator" means "program > that emulates a terminal", not "program that talks to a serial port") > then Windows-based SIMH would have the same capability as the rest of > the world. As far as I'm aware, Windows has no such capability. > > This is probably the third time I've explained this. It's a seriously > two-syllable concept that I'm amazed has required even ONE explanation > in a crowd of people who purport to know something about how computers > work. Actually, I may be one of the few individuals who uses Windows, although not be choice. I really did not want Windows, but I also lack the expertise to support myself on any PC platform. That lack could be changed if I spent sufficient time, but then I would probably need to do it over again every few years. At 72 years old, I just want internet access for e-mail and Usenet. Windows was sufficient and my son was willing to set up both of his parents. >> Do you mean that E11 (I am not familiar with this software) offers >> VT100 emulation on all platforms except Windows? > > No, that wasn't what I meant at all. What I meant was that peoples' > repeated assertions that SIMH not coming with its own bundled terminal > emulator is somehow a "limitation" is complete and utter bunk. > > And even THIS only applies when you're working exclusively on the > (emulated) console of the system. This is why Jerome keeps running > into this; his focus is RT-11 which is almost always used exclusively > from the system console. All other mainstream PDP-11 operating > systems are designed for multi-terminal use, and the console is only > (supposed to be) used for maintenance-type stuff like startup and > shutdown. You can map, say, a DH11 to a TCP port, and use a > Windows-based terminal emulator that speaks the telnet protocol to > access a "user" (as distinguished from "console") terminal in such a > configuration. Actually, RT-11 is very comfortable (a monitor with multi-terminal support which I use 99% of the time, including both DZ11 and DH11 based hardware) in allowing the system console to be transferred to any other "terminal" on any DL, DZ or DH hardware. However, since E11 seamlessly supports these other consoles as well, I have had no incentive to switch to SIMH. However, a previous Windows 95 system that ran E11 about 10 years ago did not have the necessary firmware in the video card to support 132 character text lines in FULL SCREEN mode. Since 90% of my effort involve writing MACRO-11 programs which really need 132 character text lines to view the MACRO-11 listing, I used a real VT100 DEC terminal attached to the COM1: serial port. When I upgraded to a Pentium III system running Windows 98SE, the video card fully supports 132 character text lines in FULL SCREEN mode and E11 allows me to use to switch from one "terminal" to another just by pressing that key combination. In addition, over the past couple of years, I have been running tests using both RSTS/E and TSX-Plus to check the code in some of the programs being written. E11 with its VT100 emulation supports using these other terminals in a seamless fashion, so again I don't have any reason to use SIMH. For example, under RSTS/E, I can make use of any one of 4 users on any one of the 4 DL ports that the RSTS/E monitor that I am using supports. Since E11 supports VT100 emulation for all 4 users in the same manner, I don't also need a Windows-based terminal emulator no matter which of the 4 users are logged in. And, of course, E11 allows me to switch from one user to the other via the key combination. So I really find that RSTS/E and RT-11 are identical in respect of being able to use any console to enter commands and run programs, assuming that RT-11 is using a monitor which has multi-terminal support. > SIMH even supports access to the console itself via a TCP port, > rendering the argument for console terminal emulation even less relevant. At this point, you have my full attention. Is there some way within Windows (say Windows XP which I will be upgrading to in the near future) to have SIMH speak to a TCP port and channel both the input and output through a terminal emulator emulating a VT100, of course? I would need to have all of this done on the same system if it was to be useful as opposed to running SIMH on one system and using a TCP port to talk to a different system. And it would be necessary to have at least 4 TCP ports running, all independently talking to SIMH. The problem is that I understand enough of Windows XP to run e-mail, Usenet and do a search on Google, but not to install and configure a complete system. Still, I don't understand why SIMH does not have an option to provide VT100 emulation for those users for whom it would be appropriate. If a user does not want or need the VT100 emulation, then build SIMH without it. Otherwise, the user can have the VT100 support if it is needed. I do remember that V2.9-11 has a problem with the key or . Since it is the key on a normal PC keyboard, SIMH might have had a problem in supporting VT100 emulation and generating the 3 character response which a VT100 produces. There was no problem with the "/" key producing the set of characters, but perhaps because the key is special, SIMH was never able to solve that problem and so VT100 emulation was abandoned. Obviously, E11 solved the problem and handles the key in a manner which FULL SCREEN edit programs expect under both RSTS/E and RT-11. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Apr 22 19:01:46 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:01:46 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <8C1E7303-4808-43D3-BA36-620ACC567D92@comcast.net> References: <8C1E7303-4808-43D3-BA36-620ACC567D92@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4DB216EA.4010806@compsys.to> >CRC wrote: >E11 has been seriously looked at in the past, but the required additions and money constraints nixed going in that direction. Whenever time permits he has been looking at alternates to the current hardware. However, this system which has a rack of Fuji Eagles and a number of tape decks, has been running without much repair maintenance for the last several decades. We recently had to work on one of the Fujis and now are in the process of shot-gunning all the caps. We were totally amazed when one of the drives became flakey and found that nearly all the caps were bad - luckily Earl W. Muntz didn't work for Fuji... > > I have discussed running RSTS/E under E11 with a number of individuals running commercial installations. The saving in the cost of power more than pays for the system over a few years. I core 2 duo system runs the code at about 100 times the speed of a PDP-11/93. I don't know how internet interfaces to E11, assuming you are using it now on the PDP-11, but Zane seems to have solved that problem - maybe. As for serial terminals, E11 supports multi-port hardware if RSTS/E is being used remotely. I agree that a commercial license is a significant portion of the cost, but perhaps John Wilson might agree to the payment of that purchase over a number of years if the business is on the edge of failing otherwise. It sounds like your disk I/O controllers (or host adapters) use standard DEC interfaces, so the customized aspect of RSTS/E should not be a problem in the hardware area. >However, the current problem is not transporting the applications, but contacting the current system. Remember that RSTS is multiuser and he has no intention of also transporting his drones that also access the computer to the cool mountains with him :) There are also a number of customers that dial in to get access to data. > > I know that E11 supports serial ports directly, >Has anyone used any of the serial port ethernet servers (aka port directors) and how well did they work? > Eventually, the PDP-11 hardware will cost more to maintain than using current PC hardware. I have found with E11 a rather good solution to running RT-11 even though I could still use the DEC PDP-11/83 with ESDI Hitachi 600 MByte hard drives. If I was supporting a commercial site running RSTS/E 24 hours a day, E11 would probably provide a good solution, as it has other sites that still run RSTS/E or RSX-11. Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 22 19:15:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:15:59 -0700 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <201104222336.p3MNaZ8a015326@floodgap.com> References: <4DB19E5A.10794.151AE0B@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 22, 11 03:27:22 pm", <201104222336.p3MNaZ8a015326@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DB1B7CF.27582.1B51F52@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2011 at 16:36, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > But is there a good alternate solution other than shorter shifts? > Here's the potential downsides: > - Lower number of cases seen, requiring either a protracted residency > or accepting less skilled graduates. The former seems better than the > latter except when you realize how few doctors the American medical > school system actually produces, in addition to the real cost of > residents having to defer their debts longer. I suppose that's why we get them from Nigeria, where the government pays the entire cost of training. The US could do worse to do the same. I'm not convinced that the AMA has my best interests at heart. Why not train a surplus of qualified people? When the lead surgeon on a long procedure is getting woozy, why not pass the job off onto someone equally qualified rather than trying to tough it out? --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 22 19:23:38 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:23:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <4DB1B7CF.27582.1B51F52@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Apr 22, 11 05:15:59 pm" Message-ID: <201104230023.p3N0Nch1014696@floodgap.com> > I suppose that's why we get them from Nigeria, where the government > pays the entire cost of training. The US could do worse to do the > same. I'm not convinced that the AMA has my best interests at heart. I'm not convinced of that either, and I'm a physician! > Why not train a surplus of qualified people? When the lead surgeon > on a long procedure is getting woozy, why not pass the job off onto > someone equally qualified rather than trying to tough it out? Surgery is probably a bad example, because who do you blame when it goes wrong (i.e., provably human error, not our typical litigious sue-the-pants-off for any complication "gone wrong")? But for non-surgical fields, I still point to continuity of care as the gold standard. Perhaps this is my primary care bias, but continuity means a lot, even in a hospital setting where it is significantly less expected. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Thunderball" -------------------------------------- From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:25:11 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:25:11 -0700 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <4DB2137A.6060909@compsys.to> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> <042101cc0123$e2c49940$a84dcbc0$@ntlworld.com> <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> <4DB2137A.6060909@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> ?SIMH even supports access to the console itself via a TCP port, rendering >> the argument for console terminal emulation even less relevant. > > At this point, you have my full attention. ?Is there some > way within Windows (say Windows XP which I will > be upgrading to in the near future) to have SIMH speak > to a TCP port and channel both the input and output > through a terminal emulator emulating a VT100, of course? > At the SIMH prompt: SET CONSOLE TELNET=23 Then telnet to the localhost, i.e. 127.0.0.1:23 I normally use Kermit-95 as my terminal emulator to telnet to SIMH. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 19:47:11 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:47:11 -0400 Subject: new subscriptions? Message-ID: <4DB2218F.50004@neurotica.com> Hey folks. Who is handling new subscriptions here nowadays? An acquaintance from another list is interested in joining but has been having trouble. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Apr 22 19:49:59 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:49:59 -0700 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> <042101cc0123$e2c49940$a84dcbc0$@ntlworld.com> <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB22237.8030506@mail.msu.edu> On 4/22/2011 12:54 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > If one had a good terminal emulator under Windows, and Windows had the > ability to arbitrarily tie program character I/O to the I/O interfaces > of the terminal emulator (note that "terminal emulator" means "program > that emulates a terminal", not "program that talks to a serial port") > then Windows-based SIMH would have the same capability as the rest of > the world. As far as I'm aware, Windows has no such capability. > Windows does, in fact have the ability to pipe console I/O just as unices do. It's also possible for a parent process to get handles to the I/O channels of child processes. (See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms682499%28v=vs.85%29.aspx for a sample of the latter.) I'm not aware of any Windows terminal emulators that know how to take input from stdio, but there's absolutely no reason it couldn't be done -- it's not a Windows limitation. - Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Apr 22 19:54:37 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:54:37 -0700 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <4DB22237.8030506@mail.msu.edu> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> <042101cc0123$e2c49940$a84dcbc0$@ntlworld.com> <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> <4DB22237.8030506@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4DB2234D.2060800@mail.msu.edu> On 4/22/2011 5:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Windows does, in fact have the ability to pipe console I/O just as > unices do. It's also possible for a parent process to get handles to > the I/O channels of child processes. (See > http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms682499%28v=vs.85%29.aspx for > a sample of the latter.) I'm not aware of any Windows terminal > emulators that know how to take input from stdio, but there's > absolutely no reason it couldn't be done -- it's not a Windows > limitation. > > - Josh > "take input from stdio" should read "redirect stdio from another process" but you get the gist... Josh From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 22 20:24:37 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 18:24:37 -0700 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <8C1E7303-4808-43D3-BA36-620ACC567D92@comcast.net> References: <8C1E7303-4808-43D3-BA36-620ACC567D92@comcast.net> Message-ID: At 3:23 PM -0700 4/22/11, CRC wrote: >E11 has been seriously looked at in the past, but the required >additions and money constraints nixed going in that direction. >Whenever time permits he has been looking at alternates to the >current hardware. However, this system which has a rack of Fuji >Eagles and a number of tape decks, has been running without much >repair maintenance for the last several decades. We recently had to >work on one of the Fujis and now are in the process of shot-gunning >all the caps. We were totally amazed when one of the drives became >flakey and found that nearly all the caps were bad - luckily Earl W. >Muntz didn't work for Fuji... Definitely a project for a later date, and this also indicates that the system might be of sufficient size and complexity that it might actually be worth continuing to run on real hardware. I'm usually the one pointing out such systems still exist in the wild, but I have to admit the magnitude of this setup surprises me a little. >However, the current problem is not transporting the applications, >but contacting the current system. Remember that RSTS is multiuser >and he has no intention of also transporting his drones that also >access the computer to the cool mountains with him :) There are also >a number of customers that dial in to get access to data. > >Has anyone used any of the serial port ethernet servers (aka port >directors) and how well did they work? Now that we have more details I'd say that the best solution is either this, or else a dedicated low-end x86 PC running OpenBSD. In either case the 'fun' part could very well be wiring the two together. Honestly I'd recommend a PC with OpenBSD over a Serial Port ethernet server. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 22:26:05 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:26:05 -0300 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re:Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com>, <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org><4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com> <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <97A0DE0978D04D8D9782CAF59D206145@portajara> > It is certainly not unique to the medical profession. But few > non-military fields are as vicious. In auto repair, the newbie would be > sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, and a metric Crescent wrench (all > of which actually exist). No 'focus powder' to use in video cameras and screens? =D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 22:32:05 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:32:05 -0300 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re:Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com>, <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> <4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com><20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> <4DB1DE68.6000700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > In an industry where most people (no offense intended to Cameron) have a > VERY high opinions of their own abilities and their own levels of > professionalism, it's amazing that this kind of crap happens. Dave, being "like an intern" in an hospital some time ago (I was repairing computers with the help of an intern, and he used that to get some money to help in his internship) I saw that this is a common procedure, but **under strictly controlled conditions**. Interns are subject to this kind of "test" but there are more experient doctors around to help, although at a distance. If something strange happens, they came fast to take over the situation. It is a way to test how the intern deals with pressure and adverse conditions, typical on hospitals. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 22:39:57 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:39:57 -0300 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon References: Message-ID: <955CF4B7120A4881906A5B6AB7AEA757@portajara> >> Can you explain, please? In Brazil, land of the politically incorrect, we would say "Tony just got blond hair!" :oD BTW, do you know what happens when a blondie tints the hair black? "Artificial Intelligence!" :oD (drums, hi-hat) From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Apr 22 16:06:23 2011 From: derschjo at msu.edu (derschjo at msu.edu) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:06:23 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> <042101cc0123$e2c49940$a84dcbc0$@ntlworld.com> <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110422170623.67921qky9rfk9wpb@mail.msu.edu> Quoting Dave McGuire : > > If one had a good terminal emulator under Windows, and Windows had the > ability to arbitrarily tie program character I/O to the I/O interfaces > of the terminal emulator (note that "terminal emulator" means "program > that emulates a terminal", not "program that talks to a serial port") > then Windows-based SIMH would have the same capability as the rest of > the world. As far as I'm aware, Windows has no such capability. It is actually quite possible to redirect console I/O in Windows. I don't think most terminal emulators for Windows provide what you're describing as functionality, but it's most certainly possible to implement: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms682499(v=vs.85).aspx (As one example.) - Josh From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 18:08:38 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 18:08:38 -0500 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com> <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> <4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com> <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > ?In auto repair, the newbie would be > sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, and a metric Crescent wrench (all > of which actually exist) Oh, you can't forget "headlight fluid" either....... From dfaultersack at cox.net Thu Apr 21 20:28:54 2011 From: dfaultersack at cox.net (Mission Planning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 18:28:54 -0700 Subject: Unisys "Micro A" Message-ID: <001801cc008c$a4e05b10$eea11130$@cox.net> This is from an old thread. >From one of the Micro-A engineers. Write back if you want to know more about this system. Cheers. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 23:09:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:09:36 -0400 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <955CF4B7120A4881906A5B6AB7AEA757@portajara> References: <955CF4B7120A4881906A5B6AB7AEA757@portajara> Message-ID: <4DB25100.50709@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 11:39 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > BTW, do you know what happens when a blondie tints the hair black? > "Artificial Intelligence!" :oD > > (drums, hi-hat) ROFL!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Apr 22 11:37:33 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 11:37:33 -0500 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6bb3r65aun45sthh46vm1lumgf05o8uhd7@4ax.com> On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:52:22 -0500, you wrote: >And they don't think there's something wrong (and unprofessional) >about this practice? It looks (to the layperson) that it's so deeply >ingrained in the culture that it has become acceptable and expected. Do >the people involved just view it as an acceptable risk, or do they think >there just isn't any risk? > > -Dave There are probably a few other MD's (and DO's) on this list, including me ;) I went through it in my late 20's and now, 20 years later, would not have the stamina to do it at all, let alone safely. From personal experience I'm inclined to believe the practice of 36 hour shifts is no more or less than institutionalized hazing, as has already been addressed by other posters. Any complaints were always met with derision of the "you think YOU have it tough, when *I* was an intern I had to walk uphill both ways barefoot in the snow 36 hours a day", etc. Especially among surgeons, who usually won the macho-asshole award hands down. -Charles From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 23:42:02 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:42:02 -0400 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: References: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB2589A.8020006@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 5:26 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> For many purposes I think I'd be happy with a good 600 DPI color scan >>> of both sides (including silkscreen). >> >> I'd love copies of those scans, if they end up being done. > > Didn't Grant Stockly(ley?) do a full board set a few years ago for the > Altair? I believe so, but was that a redesign, or exact duplicates of the original boards? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 23:52:41 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 01:52:41 -0300 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork References: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> <4DB2589A.8020006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1AFB04B854D343878ED9AF3EEA530042@portajara> > I believe so, but was that a redesign, or exact duplicates of the > original boards? Why "duplicate" the original boards? Can't them be redrawn? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 22 23:58:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:58:19 -0400 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: <1AFB04B854D343878ED9AF3EEA530042@portajara> References: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> <4DB2589A.8020006@neurotica.com> <1AFB04B854D343878ED9AF3EEA530042@portajara> Message-ID: <4DB25C6B.1080700@neurotica.com> On 4/23/11 12:52 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I believe so, but was that a redesign, or exact duplicates of the >> original boards? > > Why "duplicate" the original boards? Can't them be redrawn? I think it'd be good to have an archival scan of the original PCB artwork. Sure, I (myself) would eventually want to turn them back into Gerbers and maybe make a set, but that's not really the point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 00:22:33 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:22:33 -0500 Subject: new here Message-ID: hi i'm 23 have a love for the history of computers and recently got a pdp8a with a nice collection of stuff http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8493/pdpe.jpg curently scanning these http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/216/tapes3.jpg http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4800/tapes2i.jpg http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2889/tapes1.jpg the cpu test scaned if anyones interested https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPOTljY2YxODQtNmE0MS00MzJiLTkwZWEtNzFiYWFjOTViYzJh&hl=en&authkey=COTC5ZQB dkca-aa option test #1 https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPMGM5ZmVlNjktOTkwOC00ZGE4LTgyYzYtMGQ5MWEwZTY0M2Ey&hl=en&authkey=CLHb4KwF yet to figure out how to make them into a pdf also got these software specific to the spectromitor the pdp8a came from http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg has the fallowing cards M8315 ? KK8A PDP-8/A CPU board (hex wide) M8317 ? KM8AA PDP-8/A bootstrap, powerfail (hex wide) M8316 ? DKC8AA PDP-8/A I/O serial/parallel/clock (hex wide) G649 ? MM8AA 8K Core stack. H219A ? MM8AA 8K Core memory control. and then these http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5155/card3u.jpg http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4624/card2q.jpg http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9238/adc120z.jpg and 2 teletype asr33's with hook up for the pdp8a i also have a heath h89 thats curently waitin for parts from a member at sebhc a h11 (ls1-11) with a nice collection of cubus cards h10 reader Geworkwaster 1 in need of parts and bunch of other GE faunic related stuff such as software some plc's controller cards for hooking into computers ect... a sick ibm p70 think it needs a floppy as i can't get it to read disks ibm model 50 bunch of industrial software a sick osborn 1 From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 23 00:37:32 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 01:37:32 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB2659C.2060204@atarimuseum.com> Welcome to the crazy realm of classic computing... Where are you located? Adrian Stoness wrote: > hi i'm 23 have a love for the history of computers and recently got a pdp8a > with a nice collection of stuff > > http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8493/pdpe.jpg > > curently scanning these > http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/216/tapes3.jpg > http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4800/tapes2i.jpg > http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2889/tapes1.jpg > > the cpu test scaned if anyones interested > https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPOTljY2YxODQtNmE0MS00MzJiLTkwZWEtNzFiYWFjOTViYzJh&hl=en&authkey=COTC5ZQB > > dkca-aa option test #1 > https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPMGM5ZmVlNjktOTkwOC00ZGE4LTgyYzYtMGQ5MWEwZTY0M2Ey&hl=en&authkey=CLHb4KwF > > yet to figure out how to make them into a pdf > > also got these software specific to the spectromitor the pdp8a came from > http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg > > has the fallowing cards > M8315 ? KK8A PDP-8/A CPU board (hex wide) > M8317 ? KM8AA PDP-8/A bootstrap, powerfail (hex wide) > M8316 ? DKC8AA PDP-8/A I/O serial/parallel/clock (hex wide) > G649 ? MM8AA 8K Core stack. > H219A ? MM8AA 8K Core memory control. > > and then these > http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5155/card3u.jpg > http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4624/card2q.jpg > http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9238/adc120z.jpg > > and 2 teletype asr33's with hook up for the pdp8a > > i also have a heath h89 thats curently waitin for parts from a member at > sebhc > a h11 (ls1-11) with a nice collection of cubus cards > h10 reader > > Geworkwaster 1 in need of parts and bunch of other GE faunic related stuff > such as software some plc's controller cards for hooking into computers > ect... > > a sick ibm p70 think it needs a floppy as i can't get it to read disks > > ibm model 50 > > bunch of industrial software > > a sick osborn 1 > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 00:40:24 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:40:24 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB2659C.2060204@atarimuseum.com> References: <4DB2659C.2060204@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: winterpeg On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Welcome to the crazy realm of classic computing... > > > Where are you located? > > > > > Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> hi i'm 23 have a love for the history of computers and recently got a >> pdp8a >> with a nice collection of stuff >> >> http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8493/pdpe.jpg >> >> curently scanning these >> http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/216/tapes3.jpg >> http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4800/tapes2i.jpg >> http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2889/tapes1.jpg >> >> the cpu test scaned if anyones interested >> >> https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPOTljY2YxODQtNmE0MS00MzJiLTkwZWEtNzFiYWFjOTViYzJh&hl=en&authkey=COTC5ZQB >> >> dkca-aa option test #1 >> >> https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPMGM5ZmVlNjktOTkwOC00ZGE4LTgyYzYtMGQ5MWEwZTY0M2Ey&hl=en&authkey=CLHb4KwF >> >> yet to figure out how to make them into a pdf >> >> also got these software specific to the spectromitor the pdp8a came from >> http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg >> >> has the fallowing cards >> M8315 ? KK8A PDP-8/A CPU board (hex wide) >> M8317 ? KM8AA PDP-8/A bootstrap, powerfail (hex wide) >> M8316 ? DKC8AA PDP-8/A I/O serial/parallel/clock (hex wide) >> G649 ? MM8AA 8K Core stack. >> H219A ? MM8AA 8K Core memory control. >> >> and then these >> http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5155/card3u.jpg >> http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4624/card2q.jpg >> http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9238/adc120z.jpg >> >> and 2 teletype asr33's with hook up for the pdp8a >> >> i also have a heath h89 thats curently waitin for parts from a member at >> sebhc >> a h11 (ls1-11) with a nice collection of cubus cards >> h10 reader >> >> Geworkwaster 1 in need of parts and bunch of other GE faunic related stuff >> such as software some plc's controller cards for hooking into computers >> ect... >> >> a sick ibm p70 think it needs a floppy as i can't get it to read disks >> >> ibm model 50 >> >> bunch of industrial software >> >> a sick osborn 1 >> >> >> > From evan at snarc.net Sat Apr 23 00:43:05 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 01:43:05 -0400 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question Message-ID: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net> Can someone here please explain to me, in ** simple English **, the difference (in usage, not in how they work) between a "control grid tube" and a "barrier grid tube" ... ? I tried Googling but that led to me being more confused, not less. :) From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Apr 23 01:54:09 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 01:54:09 -0500 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net> References: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net> Message-ID: Evan, here is my stab at this - control grid tube implies a simple triode - no other grids. I will guess that a 'barrier grid' is the screen grid in a tetrode. its function is to reduce the capacitance between the control grid and the plate, for higher frequency operation. A Pentode adds the suppressor grid, to reduce secondary emission from the plate (electrons bouncing back). Randy > Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 01:43:05 -0400 > From: evan at snarc.net > To: > Subject: OT: vacuum tube question > > Can someone here please explain to me, in ** simple English **, the > difference (in usage, not in how they work) between a "control grid > tube" and a "barrier grid tube" ... ? > > I tried Googling but that led to me being more confused, not less. :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 23 02:09:49 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:09:49 -0700 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net> References: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net> Message-ID: <9d25543946ffbc631d2b7e605fcb1a07@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 22, at 10:43 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Can someone here please explain to me, in ** simple English **, the > difference (in usage, not in how they work) between a "control grid > tube" and a "barrier grid tube" ... ? In an attempt to be concise: - The control grid is just that: the grid which exerts primary control over electron flow in (any) tube. As such, it is the grid to which the input signal is generally applied. It is not usual to refer to a tube as a "control-grid tube". - On the other hand, "barrier-grid tubes" were a specialised form of cathode ray tube (CRT) with a storage function. Just for some confusion: - CRTs also generally have a control grid, but it might be said to be a bit of a misnomer as the input signal is often/usually applied to the cathode. - Depending on one's classification of storage CRT, not all storage CRTs are barrier-grid tubes. - The control grid is usually but not always the first grid after the cathode. > I tried Googling but that led to me being more confused, not less. :) From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sat Apr 23 04:03:29 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 05:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Serial Port Web Server Message-ID: <8CDCFAC729DB375-588-26F@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> --- snip --- >> >>Has anyone used any of the serial port ethernet servers (aka port >>directors) and how well did they work? > Now that we have more details I'd say that the best solution is > either this, or else a dedicated low-end x86 PC running OpenBSD. In > either case the 'fun' part could very well be wiring the two > together. Honestly I'd recommend a PC with OpenBSD over a Serial > Port ethernet server. --- snip --- A VPN router and a 4 or 8-port terminal server should be adequate. Xyplex terminal servers, while a PITA to configure, seem pretty darned stable. An MX1600-04 is a 1U rack size, and can support 16 concurrent sessions. It's best to use them with a multiplexor that supports modem control though, so that if your Telnet session drops, your interactive session becomes detached. Otherwise, the next person connecting will pick up your session. I've successfully interfaced Xyplex series routers with Emulex CS02's, and DHV11's. It's been some time since I've messed with them, though, so I can't readily spout the exact terminal server settings & cable pin-outs, so I'd have to dig them out of my storage unit for examination. Lantronix terminal servers will also work; they're alot smaller, but not my favorite. (I couldn't get rid of the pesky "Welcome to the Lantronix Terminal Server" message.) T From mardy at voysys.com Sat Apr 23 09:06:59 2011 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:06:59 -0400 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: <4DB25C6B.1080700@neurotica.com> References: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> <4DB2589A.8020006@neurotica.com> <1AFB04B854D343878ED9AF3EEA530042@portajara> <4DB25C6B.1080700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DCF6DB7-F6A9-4A8C-B94A-68DB1ADEDF64@voysys.com> On Apr 23, 2011, at 12:58 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/23/11 12:52 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> I believe so, but was that a redesign, or exact duplicates of the >>> original boards? >> >> Why "duplicate" the original boards? Can't them be redrawn? > > I think it'd be good to have an archival scan of the original PCB artwork. Sure, I (myself) would eventually want to turn them back into Gerbers and maybe make a set, but that's not really the point. > > -Dave Scans are easy, and I plan on submitting a full set to Bitsavers. But I am looking to go beyond that and provide Gerber and drill files so that anyone can have real boards made. Ideally I want these to resemble the original boards as much as possible, flaws and all. You also have to remember that when these boards were originally designed, there were no PCB CAD programs available. Everything was laid out with tape and mylar on a light table. You could redraw them using todays PCB layout tools and the result would be electrically correct but they would be far from accurate reproductions. I've already received one quote from a company in Florida. They want a little over $1800.00 per board to do the work. I also know about Mile High. That is the outfit that did the reproduction work for Grant Stockly's kits. Still waiting on some more quotes... -Mardy From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Apr 23 09:14:31 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:14:31 +0200 Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re:Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <97A0DE0978D04D8D9782CAF59D206145@portajara> References: <201104220511.p3M5BKsg011214@floodgap.com> <4DB17CEF.3030505@bitsavers.org> <4DB14CBA.8709.12D6EF@cclist.sydex.com> <20110422123233.K15936@shell.lmi.net> <97A0DE0978D04D8D9782CAF59D206145@portajara> Message-ID: <20110423141431.GA16717@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 12:26:05AM -0300, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >It is certainly not unique to the medical profession. But few > >non-military fields are as vicious. In auto repair, the newbie would be > >sent to get spotted paint, rubber nails, and a metric Crescent wrench (all > >of which actually exist). > > No 'focus powder' to use in video cameras and screens? =D Or the file grease, blue? Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 23 09:23:17 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 15:23:17 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have VWS V4.0, 4.1 & 4.2? Message-ID: <048101cc01c1$feec32b0$fcc49810$@ntlworld.com> I am looking for copies of these versions of the VAX Workstation Software. Does anyone have copies available? Thanks Rob From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 23 09:34:04 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 08:34:04 -0600 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <4DB2659C.2060204@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DB2E35C.2050102@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/22/2011 11:40 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > winterpeg > > On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 12:37 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > >> Welcome to the crazy realm of classic computing... >> >> >> Where are you located? >> Oh, the Banana belt, compared to some places on this list. Nice sunny day with just a bit more snow to melt from Cold Lake here. Ask about Ethan's summer job some day. :) Ben. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Apr 23 10:00:14 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:00:14 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have VWS V4.0, 4.1 & 4.2? In-Reply-To: <048101cc01c1$feec32b0$fcc49810$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 23/04/2011 15:23, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > I am looking for copies of these versions of the VAX Workstation Software. > Does anyone have copies available? > > Thanks Perhaps unsurprisingly, yes. No idea where though, since the move my DEC software's been spread all over the garage. Note to self: for the move next year* try and consolidate things! *my house gets demolished in 2012, joys. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 09:59:50 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:59:50 -0300 Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork References: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> <4DB2589A.8020006@neurotica.com><1AFB04B854D343878ED9AF3EEA530042@portajara><4DB25C6B.1080700@neurotica.com> <4DCF6DB7-F6A9-4A8C-B94A-68DB1ADEDF64@voysys.com> Message-ID: <45F6E01E720440BEA43DB52302151A57@portajara> >Scans are easy, and I plan on submitting a full set to Bitsavers. But I am >looking to go beyond that and provide >Gerber and drill files so that >anyone can have real boards made. Ideally I want these to resemble the >original boards >as much as possible, flaws and all. I don't think this is a "sane" (in the lack of a better word, sorry if you find it annoying or offensive) way to reproduce a classic computer. Of course, a bona fide reproduction would be nice, but what about a reproduction not so perfect but electrically identical? I think it would be an easier way of doing that BUT (and there is always a but) you can reproduce these boards at home, using toner transfer, if you have the proper scanned PDFs, no need for gerbers/drills. Thats an interesting point of view. >You also have to remember that when these boards were originally designed, >there were no PCB CAD programs >available. Everything was laid out with >tape and mylar on a light table. You could redraw them using todays PCB > >layout tools and the result would be electrically correct but they would >be far from accurate reproductions. There is ONE autorouter that does that, but I don't remember the name now. >I've already received one quote from a company in Florida. They want a >little over $1800.00 per board to do the >work. I also know about Mile >High. That is the outfit that did the reproduction work for Grant >Stockly's kits. Still >waiting on some more quotes... I'd happly do that at home for half the price :oP From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 23 10:16:59 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 08:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: Retro Atari 400 looking Keyboard)) In-Reply-To: <6bb3r65aun45sthh46vm1lumgf05o8uhd7@4ax.com> from Charles Morris at "Apr 22, 11 11:37:33 am" Message-ID: <201104231516.p3NFGxRx015976@floodgap.com> > There are probably a few other MD's (and DO's) on this list, including > me ;) Yay! There's another one! :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: The E-mail Signature Who Loved Me ------------------------------ From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Apr 23 10:50:59 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 08:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reproducing Printed Circuit Board Artwork In-Reply-To: <4DB2589A.8020006@neurotica.com> References: <4DB1E015.1010205@neurotica.com> <4DB2589A.8020006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/22/11 5:26 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> For many purposes I think I'd be happy with a good 600 DPI color scan >>>> of both sides (including silkscreen). >>> >>> I'd love copies of those scans, if they end up being done. >> >> Didn't Grant Stockly(ley?) do a full board set a few years ago for the >> Altair? > > I believe so, but was that a redesign, or exact duplicates of the original > boards? > If I recall correctly, it was a 100% copy, but the silk screen was improved in some ways (positioning mostly). g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 23 10:58:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 08:58:37 -0700 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: <9d25543946ffbc631d2b7e605fcb1a07@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net>, <9d25543946ffbc631d2b7e605fcb1a07@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DB294BD.16180.2C481E@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2011 at 0:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > - The control grid is usually but not always the first grid after the > cathode. Interestingly, some early models of the Audion put the grid on the opposite side of the filament from the plate. If you look at DeForest's patents, it's pretty clear that he had no idea of how his Audion really operated. There's a web site, showing how to emulate an audion using a 6AX5 full-wave rectifier (no "grid" per se): http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Build_an_Audion.html --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Apr 23 11:47:30 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 09:47:30 -0700 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Welcome, it's always nice to get some fresh meat, er I mean *blood* onto this list and into our jolly band. Looks like you have some fun toys. Two ASR33s? I'm somewhat jealous, although I don't know where I'd put them.... Wanting to produce PDFs? If you're on a Mac (OS X) you can 'print' from any number of applications to a PDF file; if you're dealing with a Linux variant or that stuff from Redmond, there are third party open-source tools to let you do the same thing. Cheers -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness [tdk.knight at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:22 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: new here hi i'm 23 have a love for the history of computers and recently got a pdp8a with a nice collection of stuff http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8493/pdpe.jpg curently scanning these http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/216/tapes3.jpg http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4800/tapes2i.jpg http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2889/tapes1.jpg the cpu test scaned if anyones interested https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPOTljY2YxODQtNmE0MS00MzJiLTkwZWEtNzFiYWFjOTViYzJh&hl=en&authkey=COTC5ZQB dkca-aa option test #1 https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPMGM5ZmVlNjktOTkwOC00ZGE4LTgyYzYtMGQ5MWEwZTY0M2Ey&hl=en&authkey=CLHb4KwF yet to figure out how to make them into a pdf also got these software specific to the spectromitor the pdp8a came from http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg has the fallowing cards M8315 ? KK8A PDP-8/A CPU board (hex wide) M8317 ? KM8AA PDP-8/A bootstrap, powerfail (hex wide) M8316 ? DKC8AA PDP-8/A I/O serial/parallel/clock (hex wide) G649 ? MM8AA 8K Core stack. H219A ? MM8AA 8K Core memory control. and then these http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5155/card3u.jpg http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4624/card2q.jpg http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9238/adc120z.jpg and 2 teletype asr33's with hook up for the pdp8a i also have a heath h89 thats curently waitin for parts from a member at sebhc a h11 (ls1-11) with a nice collection of cubus cards h10 reader Geworkwaster 1 in need of parts and bunch of other GE faunic related stuff such as software some plc's controller cards for hooking into computers ect... a sick ibm p70 think it needs a floppy as i can't get it to read disks ibm model 50 bunch of industrial software a sick osborn 1 From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 23 11:57:31 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 12:57:31 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> Did anybody fill him in on initiation rules, that he has to donate half of his best parts of his collection to the group and that he needs to attend all of the computer fests and buy everyone the first round of beers? ;-) Ian King wrote: > Welcome, it's always nice to get some fresh meat, er I mean *blood* onto this list and into our jolly band. > > Looks like you have some fun toys. Two ASR33s? I'm somewhat jealous, although I don't know where I'd put them.... > > Wanting to produce PDFs? If you're on a Mac (OS X) you can 'print' from any number of applications to a PDF file; if you're dealing with a Linux variant or that stuff from Redmond, there are third party open-source tools to let you do the same thing. Cheers -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness [tdk.knight at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:22 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: new here > > hi i'm 23 have a love for the history of computers and recently got a pdp8a > with a nice collection of stuff > > http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8493/pdpe.jpg > > curently scanning these > http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/216/tapes3.jpg > http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4800/tapes2i.jpg > http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2889/tapes1.jpg > > the cpu test scaned if anyones interested > https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPOTljY2YxODQtNmE0MS00MzJiLTkwZWEtNzFiYWFjOTViYzJh&hl=en&authkey=COTC5ZQB > > dkca-aa option test #1 > https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPMGM5ZmVlNjktOTkwOC00ZGE4LTgyYzYtMGQ5MWEwZTY0M2Ey&hl=en&authkey=CLHb4KwF > > yet to figure out how to make them into a pdf > > also got these software specific to the spectromitor the pdp8a came from > http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg > > has the fallowing cards > M8315 ? KK8A PDP-8/A CPU board (hex wide) > M8317 ? KM8AA PDP-8/A bootstrap, powerfail (hex wide) > M8316 ? DKC8AA PDP-8/A I/O serial/parallel/clock (hex wide) > G649 ? MM8AA 8K Core stack. > H219A ? MM8AA 8K Core memory control. > > and then these > http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5155/card3u.jpg > http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4624/card2q.jpg > http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9238/adc120z.jpg > > and 2 teletype asr33's with hook up for the pdp8a > > i also have a heath h89 thats curently waitin for parts from a member at > sebhc > a h11 (ls1-11) with a nice collection of cubus cards > h10 reader > > Geworkwaster 1 in need of parts and bunch of other GE faunic related stuff > such as software some plc's controller cards for hooking into computers > ect... > > a sick ibm p70 think it needs a floppy as i can't get it to read disks > > ibm model 50 > > bunch of industrial software > > a sick osborn 1 > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 23 12:01:06 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 10:01:06 -0700 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:47 AM -0700 4/23/11, Ian King wrote: >Looks like you have some fun toys. Two ASR33s? I'm somewhat >jealous, although I don't know where I'd put them.... I have to agree on both counts! I'm trying to clear out a lot of stuff, but wow... On an unrelated note, I was had my C64 playing SID's while cleaning out in the garage earlier. First time in months I've had a Classic powered up. Of course it was playing SID files located on a SD flash card. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 23 12:11:05 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 18:11:05 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have VWS V4.0, 4.1 & 4.2? In-Reply-To: References: <048101cc01c1$feec32b0$fcc49810$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <048801cc01d9$6fbb0400$4f310c00$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 23 April 2011 16:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Anyone Have VWS V4.0, 4.1 & 4.2? > > On 23/04/2011 15:23, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > > > I am looking for copies of these versions of the VAX Workstation Software. > > Does anyone have copies available? > > > > Thanks > > Perhaps unsurprisingly, yes. No idea where though, since the move my DEC > software's been spread all over the garage. Note to self: for the move next > year* try and consolidate things! > > *my house gets demolished in 2012, joys. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? Adrian, If you do find the software would you be able to make images of the media available? Thanks Rob From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 13:00:17 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 13:00:17 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB2E35C.2050102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4DB2659C.2060204@atarimuseum.com> <4DB2E35C.2050102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: cold lake lol damn origonaly from lynn lake myself On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 9:34 AM, ben wrote: > > Oh, the Banana belt, compared to some places on this list. > Nice sunny day with just a bit more snow to melt from Cold Lake > here. Ask about Ethan's summer job some day. :) > Ben. > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 13:02:47 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 13:02:47 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: windows machean yes 2 asr33's guna try and fire one up see if it will work and find a home for the other one On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Ian King wrote: > Welcome, it's always nice to get some fresh meat, er I mean *blood* onto > this list and into our jolly band. > > Looks like you have some fun toys. Two ASR33s? I'm somewhat jealous, > although I don't know where I'd put them.... > > Wanting to produce PDFs? If you're on a Mac (OS X) you can 'print' from > any number of applications to a PDF file; if you're dealing with a Linux > variant or that stuff from Redmond, there are third party open-source tools > to let you do the same thing. Cheers -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of Adrian Stoness [tdk.knight at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 10:22 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: new here > > hi i'm 23 have a love for the history of computers and recently got a pdp8a > with a nice collection of stuff > > http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/8493/pdpe.jpg > > curently scanning these > http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/216/tapes3.jpg > http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/4800/tapes2i.jpg > http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2889/tapes1.jpg > > the cpu test scaned if anyones interested > > https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPOTljY2YxODQtNmE0MS00MzJiLTkwZWEtNzFiYWFjOTViYzJh&hl=en&authkey=COTC5ZQB > > dkca-aa option test #1 > > https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bwfh3w-st3iPMGM5ZmVlNjktOTkwOC00ZGE4LTgyYzYtMGQ5MWEwZTY0M2Ey&hl=en&authkey=CLHb4KwF > > yet to figure out how to make them into a pdf > > also got these software specific to the spectromitor the pdp8a came from > http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg > > has the fallowing cards > M8315 ? KK8A PDP-8/A CPU board (hex wide) > M8317 ? KM8AA PDP-8/A bootstrap, powerfail (hex wide) > M8316 ? DKC8AA PDP-8/A I/O serial/parallel/clock (hex wide) > G649 ? MM8AA 8K Core stack. > H219A ? MM8AA 8K Core memory control. > > and then these > http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5155/card3u.jpg > http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4624/card2q.jpg > http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9238/adc120z.jpg > > and 2 teletype asr33's with hook up for the pdp8a > > i also have a heath h89 thats curently waitin for parts from a member at > sebhc > a h11 (ls1-11) with a nice collection of cubus cards > h10 reader > > Geworkwaster 1 in need of parts and bunch of other GE faunic related stuff > such as software some plc's controller cards for hooking into computers > ect... > > a sick ibm p70 think it needs a floppy as i can't get it to read disks > > ibm model 50 > > bunch of industrial software > > a sick osborn 1 > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 23 13:30:57 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:30:57 -0700 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: <4DB294BD.16180.2C481E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net>, <9d25543946ffbc631d2b7e605fcb1a07@cs.ubc.ca> <4DB294BD.16180.2C481E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <765fb0b765a111668e02542954b33255@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Apr 23, at 8:58 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Apr 2011 at 0:09, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> - The control grid is usually but not always the first grid after the >> cathode. > > Interestingly, some early models of the Audion put the grid on the > opposite side of the filament from the plate. If you look at > DeForest's patents, it's pretty clear that he had no idea of how his > Audion really operated. Yes, and he started with a flame detector - not a detector of flames, but trying to detect radio-waves by passing them through a flame, as he was hacking around trying to make a radio-wave detector that wouldn't infringe on other's patents. It was some years later that people realised the audion could amplify. Armstrong was the more impressive in actually putting the tube to work. > There's a web site, showing how to emulate an audion using a 6AX5 > full-wave rectifier (no "grid" per se): > > http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Build_an_Audion.html > Fun writeup, I'll have to look at some 6AX5s to see if they're all constructed that way. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 23 14:13:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 15:13:21 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <4DB2234D.2060800@mail.msu.edu> References: <2D97721F-71FB-472A-A55C-17B3BC1B009F@comcast.net> <4DB16FE6.5080600@compsys.to> <4DB1C6A3.1000904@neurotica.com> <042101cc0123$e2c49940$a84dcbc0$@ntlworld.com> <4DB1DCE7.8090300@neurotica.com> <4DB22237.8030506@mail.msu.edu> <4DB2234D.2060800@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4DB324D1.4020204@neurotica.com> On 4/22/11 8:54 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Windows does, in fact have the ability to pipe console I/O just as >> unices do. It's also possible for a parent process to get handles to >> the I/O channels of child processes. (See >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms682499%28v=vs.85%29.aspx for >> a sample of the latter.) I'm not aware of any Windows terminal >> emulators that know how to take input from stdio, but there's >> absolutely no reason it couldn't be done -- it's not a Windows >> limitation. > > "take input from stdio" should read "redirect stdio from another > process" but you get the gist... (I got what you meant) Ahh! Ok, so that piece of the puzzle is filled in. Now if there's some way to write a driver to take stdin and stdout, and connect them to a logical COM: port...I can't imagine that'd be too difficult...then one could use pretty much any terminal emulator to do this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 23 14:13:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 15:13:59 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB324F7.5020407@neurotica.com> On 4/23/11 1:22 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > hi i'm 23 have a love for the history of computers and recently got a pdp8a > with a nice collection of stuff Hey Adrian! It's good to see you here! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 23 14:15:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 15:15:29 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> On 4/23/11 12:57 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Did anybody fill him in on initiation rules, that he has to donate half > of his best parts of his collection to the group and that he needs to > attend all of the computer fests and buy everyone the first round of beers? > > > ;-) Now, now...let's take it easy on the boy. At least for a day or two. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Apr 23 14:22:40 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 20:22:40 +0100 Subject: Anyone Have VWS V4.0, 4.1 & 4.2? In-Reply-To: <048801cc01d9$6fbb0400$4f310c00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 23/04/2011 18:11, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham >> Sent: 23 April 2011 16:00 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Anyone Have VWS V4.0, 4.1 & 4.2? >> >> On 23/04/2011 15:23, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: >> >>> I am looking for copies of these versions of the VAX Workstation > Software. >>> Does anyone have copies available? >>> >>> Thanks >> >> Perhaps unsurprisingly, yes. No idea where though, since the move my DEC >> software's been spread all over the garage. Note to self: for the move > next >> year* try and consolidate things! >> >> *my house gets demolished in 2012, joys. >> >> -- >> Adrian/Witchy >> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer >> collection? > > > Adrian, > > If you do find the software would you be able to make images of the media > available? Yes, no problem. I can picture the folders they're in, it's just a matter of where :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 14:28:01 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 14:28:01 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: do i dare mention the boxs of tubes On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/23/11 12:57 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Did anybody fill him in on initiation rules, that he has to donate half >> of his best parts of his collection to the group and that he needs to >> attend all of the computer fests and buy everyone the first round of >> beers? >> >> >> ;-) >> > > Now, now...let's take it easy on the boy. At least for a day or two. ;) > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > anyhow eventualy going to need some advice on how to power up my pdp8 From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Apr 23 14:31:48 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 14:31:48 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Free RTTY machines in central Iowa Message-ID: <201104231932.p3NJW8tG080085@billY.EZWIND.NET> >From: Gary Buda >To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net >Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 12:37:21 -0500 >Subject: [GreenKeys] Free RTTY machines in central Iowa > >Des Moines had a swap fest today. One of the sellers had a sign for a FREE >model 33 and a FREE model 18. What they really have, I believe is a FREE >model 33 and a FREE model 15. They're relocating to Florida and don't want to >haul this stuff with them nor do they want to throw it in the garbage. They >didn't bring the units to the swap fest, so I have not seen them. And, I >don't have an interest in them either. They just sold their computer and >therefore no longer have email. But, you can contact them here: >Rich Acopy >515-243-9567 > >Good luck! >Gary WA0NDN >NNNN > >______________________________________________________________ >GreenKeys mailing list >Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >Post: mailto:GreenKeys at mailman.qth.net > >This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 23 15:18:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 13:18:57 -0700 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: <765fb0b765a111668e02542954b33255@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net>, <4DB294BD.16180.2C481E@cclist.sydex.com>, <765fb0b765a111668e02542954b33255@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DB2D1C1.11171.11AA0D8@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2011 at 11:30, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Armstrong was the more impressive in actually putting the tube to > work. DeForest is painted rather blatantly as nothing less than a slimeball by the T.H. Lee chapter cited by the previous web site: http://www-smirc.stanford.edu/papers/chapter1.pdf In legal proceedings attempting to claim credit for the superhet, DeForest made a perfect idiot of himself. He didn't have a clue. --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 23 15:41:54 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:41:54 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <4DB324D1.4020204@neurotica.com> References: <4DB2234D.2060800@mail.msu.edu> <4DB324D1.4020204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201104231641.54814.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday, April 23, 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/22/11 8:54 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Windows does, in fact have the ability to pipe console I/O just as > >> unices do. It's also possible for a parent process to get handles > >> to the I/O channels of child processes. (See > >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms682499%28v=vs.85%29.aspx > >> for a sample of the latter.) I'm not aware of any Windows > >> terminal emulators that know how to take input from stdio, but > >> there's absolutely no reason it couldn't be done -- it's not a > >> Windows limitation. > > > > "take input from stdio" should read "redirect stdio from another > > process" but you get the gist... > > (I got what you meant) > > Ahh! Ok, so that piece of the puzzle is filled in. Now if > there's some way to write a driver to take stdin and stdout, and > connect them to a logical COM: port...I can't imagine that'd be too > difficult...then one could use pretty much any terminal emulator to > do this. Or just find a decent telnet client, and use netcat, perhaps? I'd imagine that it exists on Windows, not just *nix... Pat -- Patrick Finnegan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 23 15:49:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:49:21 -0400 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: <201104231641.54814.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4DB2234D.2060800@mail.msu.edu> <4DB324D1.4020204@neurotica.com> <201104231641.54814.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4DB33B51.1030609@neurotica.com> On 4/23/11 4:41 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Ahh! Ok, so that piece of the puzzle is filled in. Now if >> there's some way to write a driver to take stdin and stdout, and >> connect them to a logical COM: port...I can't imagine that'd be too >> difficult...then one could use pretty much any terminal emulator to >> do this. > > Or just find a decent telnet client, and use netcat, perhaps? I'd > imagine that it exists on Windows, not just *nix... I don't recall Hobbit ever having ported it to Windows. He's primarily a UNIX guy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 23 15:52:33 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:52:33 -0400 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: <4DB2D1C1.11171.11AA0D8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net>, <4DB294BD.16180.2C481E@cclist.sydex.com>, <765fb0b765a111668e02542954b33255@cs.ubc.ca> <4DB2D1C1.11171.11AA0D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DB33C11.3060806@neurotica.com> On 4/23/11 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Armstrong was the more impressive in actually putting the tube to >> work. > > DeForest is painted rather blatantly as nothing less than a slimeball > by the T.H. Lee chapter cited by the previous web site: > > http://www-smirc.stanford.edu/papers/chapter1.pdf > > In legal proceedings attempting to claim credit for the superhet, > DeForest made a perfect idiot of himself. He didn't have a clue. We call people like that "executive management" nowadays. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Sat Apr 23 16:48:50 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:48:50 -0500 Subject: PC Keyboard to serial adapter... In-Reply-To: <201104191209.37143.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201104191209.37143.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4DB34942.1080101@jbrain.com> Sorry to belabor this thread, but I spent some time last night cleaning up some code on PS2Encoder, and I thought I'd ask for suggestions on features and if there was interest in a PCB for the unit. Currently the unit: * Converts std keys to ASCII * Handles CapsLock * offers RS232 output. 110-57600 bps supported (I can add 7/8/N/E/O/0/1/2 attribute support) * supports CTRL/ALT/DEL sequence will tirgger active low output (I'll probably make this configurable, active HI, active LO, OpenCollector Active LO) * offers parallel output (configurable HI or LO trigger, I'll add OpenCollector Active LO option) * allows LEDs on KB to signal current state * supports ENTER sending CR or CRLF * includes inter-char delay configurable * supports BS sending either BS or DEL * allows configuration via keyboard itself (CTRL/Alt/BS puts unit in config mode) * support built-in Ddebug mode. When on, each keypress is sent to rs232 and parallel as codes * comes licensed under GPL * requires only 1 IC. I don't have a PCB designed for it, but was thinking of a small 28 pin socket with an option for mounting holes and a 2x14 header for maximum flexibility. Through hole, adding optional MAX233-like footprint for true RS232. My other idea is a USB variant. Jim From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Apr 23 17:33:02 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 15:33:02 -0700 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: <4DB33C11.3060806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4/23/11 1:52 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 4/23/11 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Armstrong was the more impressive in actually putting the tube to >>> work. >> >> DeForest is painted rather blatantly as nothing less than a slimeball >> by the T.H. Lee chapter cited by the previous web site: >> >> http://www-smirc.stanford.edu/papers/chapter1.pdf >> >> In legal proceedings attempting to claim credit for the superhet, >> DeForest made a perfect idiot of himself. He didn't have a clue. > > We call people like that "executive management" nowadays. > > -Dave "Suit" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 23 18:52:43 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 16:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110423164951.M54834@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 Apr 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Did anybody fill him in on initiation rules, that he has to donate half > of his best parts of his collection to the group and that he needs to > attend all of the computer fests and buy everyone the first round of beers? > ;-) Naah. He just needs to empty the bit-bucket, replenish the computrons in the server, and provide a few hundred cc's of processing smoke to repair burnt-out chips. And, buy the first TWO rounds of beers. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 23 20:44:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:44:25 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> On 4/23/11 3:28 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > do i dare mention the boxs of tubes I wouldn't if I were you. ;) > anyhow eventualy going to need some advice on how to power up my pdp8 You've come to the right place! Post when you're ready. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 23 20:44:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:44:56 -0400 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB38098.7000908@neurotica.com> On 4/23/11 6:33 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>>> Armstrong was the more impressive in actually putting the tube to >>>> work. >>> >>> DeForest is painted rather blatantly as nothing less than a slimeball >>> by the T.H. Lee chapter cited by the previous web site: >>> >>> http://www-smirc.stanford.edu/papers/chapter1.pdf >>> >>> In legal proceedings attempting to claim credit for the superhet, >>> DeForest made a perfect idiot of himself. He didn't have a clue. >> >> We call people like that "executive management" nowadays. > > "Suit" Yes. :-( Naive is the society that allows those types of people to survive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 23 21:13:36 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:13:36 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB38750.10006@atarimuseum.com> Oh, okay.... we'll let him slide on the first round of beers ;-) Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/23/11 12:57 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Did anybody fill him in on initiation rules, that he has to donate half >> of his best parts of his collection to the group and that he needs to >> attend all of the computer fests and buy everyone the first round of >> beers? >> >> >> ;-) > > Now, now...let's take it easy on the boy. At least for a day or > two. ;) > > -Dave > From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Apr 23 21:28:43 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:28:43 -0500 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help Message-ID: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> I recently received a PCjr add-on which is so unusual, it felt like Christmas. But as always, it needs a little TLC. This is an expansion chassis made by an outfit called "Legacy Technology" in Nebraska in the mid to late 80s. The interesting part of the chassis is a hard drive controller card and hard drive. PCjrs only had hard drives if you bought a 3rd party controller, and they were all pretty hackish. The drive is a 20MB Teac SD-520U and it is very flakey - I am getting data corruption almost all of the time. The corruption seems random; this drive might just be tired. I've low level formatted the drive twice. The controller BIOS supports INT 13, Function 7 (Low Level Format). It's not helping. Since the drive is probably not usable, I'm trying to figure out how to substitute in another drive. Examination of the BIOS extension shows that the controller supports 3 types of 20MB drives and 1 type of 10MB drive. I have 10MB drives that I can use, but not another 20MB drive. This is an XT class controller so I'm expecting to find some jumpers to set the drive type, but they are eluding me. The controller is actually a two part affair - A small amount of logic with the system BIOS extension on it, and then a WD1002-HDD board. The WD1002-HDD board mounts to the underside of the hard drive and then connects to the hard drive using the familiar 34+20 wire ribbon cables. It looks like it is capable of controlling three separate drives; it only has one 34 pin connector, but it has three 20 pin headers, one of which is in use. Does anybody have docs for the WD1002-HDD? If so, where do I find the drive type jumpers on the board? If I can't figure the controllers out I'm going to be looking for a similar drive. I suspect the trusty ST-225 works - the geometry is the same. Regards, Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 23 21:34:55 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 19:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 Apr 2011, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > If I can't figure the controllers out I'm going to be looking for a > similar drive. I suspect the trusty ST-225 works - the geometry is the > same. "trusty ST-225"?? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 21:35:31 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:35:31 -0300 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> Message-ID: <9C19D1B34F2940C383E07C5D7BD09BA3@portajara> > If I can't figure the controllers out I'm going to be looking for a > similar drive. I suspect the trusty ST-225 works - the geometry is the > same. Michael, my info is from some 20-odd years ago, but as far as I remember, I formatted a ST225 and a ST238R (in MFM, so 20MB) in this controller. I had one with a WD drive in my first XT :) From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 23 21:38:19 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 19:38:19 -0700 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > "trusty ST-225"?? Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Apr 23 21:46:03 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 18:46:03 -0800 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> References: <4db38adb.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.g54834@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: eric at brouhaha.com > Sent: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 19:38:19 -0700 > To: > Subject: Re: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > "trusty ST-225"?? > > Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it > wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. "Kalok" comes immediately to mind. The '225 was still pretty standard when they showed up. ____________________________________________________________ Send any screenshot to your friends in seconds... Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if2 for FREE From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Apr 23 21:56:44 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:56:44 -0500 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB3916C.4010202@brutman.com> On 4/23/2011 9:34 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 23 Apr 2011, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> If I can't figure the controllers out I'm going to be looking for a >> similar drive. I suspect the trusty ST-225 works - the geometry is the >> same. > > "trusty ST-225"?? > > > > It's my opinion - sorry you don't agree, but I'd really rather not go off the rails on the first reply to this query for help ... Mike From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 22:00:38 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:00:38 -0300 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2FBD4869BF3E41299B980E672DD78254@portajara> > "trusty ST-225"?? It was...20 years ago :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 22:01:22 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:01:22 -0300 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com><20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> <4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5D21659A5E9B4B88AAF48F363E54D9E2@portajara> > > "trusty ST-225"?? > Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it > wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. In Brazil we say "if you don't know how to play, don't come to the playground" or something like that. So much HD brands to mention, you had to say the WORST HD ever made? :oD From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 23 22:58:26 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:58:26 -0600 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/23/2011 7:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/23/11 3:28 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> do i dare mention the boxs of tubes > > I wouldn't if I were you. ;) > >> anyhow eventualy going to need some advice on how to power up my pdp8 > > You've come to the right place! Post when you're ready. And got the KEY :) > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 23 23:08:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:08:28 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> On 4/23/11 11:58 PM, ben wrote: >>> anyhow eventualy going to need some advice on how to power up my pdp8 >> >> You've come to the right place! Post when you're ready. > > And got the KEY :) XX2247s aren't too hard to come by. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 23 23:54:38 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:54:38 -0600 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/23/2011 10:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/23/11 11:58 PM, ben wrote: >>>> anyhow eventualy going to need some advice on how to power up my pdp8 >>> >>> You've come to the right place! Post when you're ready. >> >> And got the KEY :) > > XX2247s aren't too hard to come by. How many kinds of keys did they use, on the PDP's? > -Dave > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 24 00:09:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:09:38 -0700 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4DB34E22.9270.3007B62@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Apr 2011 at 21:28, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > If I can't figure the controllers out I'm going to be looking for a > similar drive. I suspect the trusty ST-225 works - the geometry is > the same. What's the LSI controller chip on the board? I might have some documents on that. Of all of the MFM/RLL drives that I've owned, the ones that have survived the best are the high-end full-height units; Miniscribe, Atasi, Priam, Maxtor and the like, mostly in the larger-than 100MB sizes. Other than an unused ST-506, I no longer have any Seagate MFM drives that have survived. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 24 00:59:17 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:59:17 -0700 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: At 10:54 PM -0600 4/23/11, ben wrote: >On 4/23/2011 10:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>On 4/23/11 11:58 PM, ben wrote: >>>And got the KEY :) >> >>XX2247s aren't too hard to come by. > >How many kinds of keys did they use, on the PDP's? Considering I use a key from a VAX to power up my 11/44 and my PDP-8's, I'm not sure DEC used more than one. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 00:59:49 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:59:49 -0500 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 11:54 PM, ben wrote: >> XX2247s aren't too hard to come by. > > How many kinds of keys did they use, on the PDP's? With one exception in 30 years, every DEC PSU that locked that I've personally seen had an "XX2247" key - that's PDP-8s back to 1965, through PDP-11s and on through VAXen. By the 1980s, many DEC PSUs used a smooth plastic key (so any ACE metal key will work, including blanks and XX2247s). The lone exception I've experienced was a PDP-8/L I bought as one of a pair at the Dayton Hamvention in 1982. It had a different key (which was always an option from DEC, but few customers chose to pay for it) but I don't recall what the code was. The PDP-8/L itself was already partially stripped and had mechanical damage to the chassis and backplane when I bought it, so it was always a parts donor (the other one from that day is still in my collection and is functional). -ethan From useddec at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 01:50:03 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 01:50:03 -0500 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: The 11/05 and 11/10 used a flat padlock type key. Paul On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 11:54 PM, ben wrote: >>> XX2247s aren't too hard to come by. >> >> How many kinds of keys did they use, on the PDP's? > > With one exception in 30 years, every DEC PSU that locked that I've > personally seen had an "XX2247" key - that's PDP-8s back to 1965, > through PDP-11s and on through VAXen. ?By the 1980s, many DEC PSUs > used a smooth plastic key (so any ACE metal key will work, including > blanks and XX2247s). ?The lone exception I've experienced was a > PDP-8/L I bought as one of a pair at the Dayton Hamvention in 1982. > It had a different key (which was always an option from DEC, but few > customers chose to pay for it) but I don't recall what the code was. > The PDP-8/L itself was already partially stripped and had mechanical > damage to the chassis and backplane when I bought it, so it was always > a parts donor (the other one from that day is still in my collection > and is functional). > > -ethan > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 02:02:50 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 02:02:50 -0500 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > The 11/05 and 11/10 used a flat padlock type key. Whoops... now that you mention that one... I do have an 11/05 and do have a flat key for it. The PDP-8, though, used either a round ACE key or no key. -ethan From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Apr 24 02:36:18 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:36:18 -0700 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <5D21659A5E9B4B88AAF48F363E54D9E2@portajara> Message-ID: On 4/23/11 8:01 PM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >>> "trusty ST-225"?? >> Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it >> wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. > > In Brazil we say "if you don't know how to play, don't come to the > playground" or something like that. So much HD brands to mention, you had to > say the WORST HD ever made? :oD > The early ST-238's were worse :( they were just rebadged 225's :( that happened to test out ok under "rll" encoding, and Yes, I know that "MFM" and "RLL" are both RLL encoding, I just don't remember the exact #'s anymore :P From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 24 06:17:52 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:17:52 +0100 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> <4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk> On 24/04/11 03:38, Eric Smith wrote: > Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it > wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. What about the Kalok Octagon series? *shudder* -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Apr 24 06:44:27 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 07:44:27 -0400 Subject: OT: vacuum tube question Message-ID: >> Armstrong was the more impressive in actually putting the tube to >> work. > > DeForest is painted rather blatantly as nothing less than a slimeball > by the T.H. Lee chapter cited by the previous web site: > > http://www-smirc.stanford.edu/papers/chapter1.pdf > > In legal proceedings attempting to claim credit for the superhet, > DeForest made a perfect idiot of himself. He didn't have a clue. It's tough for a techie to go into court and come out looking smart. You can be the world's best expert on some important area of technology and come out completely skewered every which way from Sunday if you try to look like a smarty-pants. Just being the expert who was in the thick of things puts you at a real disadvantage in almost every legal situation, no matter how humble you try to be. And even if your side wins it doesn't mean you're gonna be a happy guy. Look what happened to Armstrong. All these legal tribulations from the early 1900's seem just as relevant (as business and/or moral lessons) today in the 21st century. Tim. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 06:56:33 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:56:33 -0500 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: ? From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Apr 24 06:56:30 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 04:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay Message-ID: <46882.15936.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Any fans of 90's-vintage IBM gear to save this machine from the gold scrappers? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170628677445 From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Apr 24 06:56:47 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 07:56:47 -0400 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help Message-ID: Eric writes: >Fred Cisin wrote: >> "trusty ST-225"?? > Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it > wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. Most of my suffering with MFM drives happened at the upper end of the cost/complexity spectrum. Looking back 20 years I in fact have good respect for the simpler of the MFM drives and the ST-225 is an example. Maybe my expectations were just lower for a drive that didn't cost $4000 (list price of a XT-2190). But it's also quite true that ST-225's didn't crap out at the rate as the much more expensive MFM drives and for that I have to really give them some credit. Tim. From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Apr 24 07:37:23 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 08:37:23 -0400 Subject: IMSAI 8080 for sale, for a good cause Message-ID: <201104241237.p3OCbbeo005525@billY.EZWIND.NET> MARCH is selling the following IMSAI 8080 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270739896050 Proceeds for this sale will go to the widow of a veteran Trenton Computer Festival exhibitor whose husband died in an accident. She donated her husband's collection to the Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists, and asked that we sell one nice system from that lot to help her financially. Bill From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Apr 24 07:42:12 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 08:42:12 -0400 Subject: S-100 Serial IO boards available Message-ID: <4C9B2C7784EF4DF7990D8F89AAA85571@andrewdesktop> Hi! There are bunch of S-100 Serial IO boards left so if anyone would like one or more please let me know. John has a nice description of the board here: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Serial%20IO%20Board/Serial%20IO %20Board.htm These are respin PCBs which resolve all the minor issues from the original release and the board is 100% without any modifications. These are generic IEEE-696/S-100 serial IO boards with dual serial ports, optional USB, and optional voice synthesizer support. There are also some parallel pins available. They are available for $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. If you have questions you can contact me or ask on the mailing list http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem-s100 Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, although these are home brew PCBs you can use them in either building your own S-100 from scratch, restoring/repairing a vintage system, just adding them to an already working system for more IO. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Apr 24 08:10:13 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 09:10:13 -0400 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201104240910.13790.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 23 April 2011 10:34:55 pm Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 23 Apr 2011, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > If I can't figure the controllers out I'm going to be looking for a > > similar drive. I suspect the trusty ST-225 works - the geometry is the > > same. > > "trusty ST-225"?? Hehe.... My first HD, which I still have upstairs, mounted in the box I was using it in. I have an Osborne Executive, and acquired a box to support a hard drive (a pretty unusual feature in those days?). It originally had a Tulin drive in it that had really *bad* bearing noise, you didn't want to be in the same room with it. Inside the box is, I think, a WD-1000 board and a power supply. Originally a linear supply, but I later mounted a switcher in there, probably something similar to what I was sticking in Kaypros in those days to replace flaky ones. And when I substituted the ST-225 for the original 34MB Tulin drive, I was actually able to somehow or other hack things to make it work. Mostly. The only problem was write precomp -- the original drive didn't seem to call for it while the 225 did, and that meant that the last 3MB or so of the drive wasn't usable. The name on the box is "Design One" -- anybody ever run across this outfit? I'd *really* love to find source code for that software if it's out there anywhere... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 24 09:00:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:00:49 -0400 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB42D11.4020003@neurotica.com> On 4/24/11 7:56 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Eric writes: >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> "trusty ST-225"?? >> Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it >> wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. > > Most of my suffering with MFM drives happened at the upper end of > the cost/complexity spectrum. > > Looking back 20 years I in fact have good respect for the simpler of > the MFM drives and the ST-225 is an example. > > Maybe my expectations were just lower for a drive that didn't cost > $4000 (list price of a XT-2190). But it's also quite true that ST-225's > didn't crap out at the rate as the much more expensive MFM drives > and for that I have to really give them some credit. I always had very good luck with ST-225s. I ran one or two at home, and installed lots of them in customer machines. One important thing for ST-225s and ST-251s is to not tighten the screws at all four corners. After many unexplained high-error-rate installations, we determined that the drive's metal substrate twists slightly due to thermal expansion when the drive heats up, throwing off the head/track alignment. These drives don't use any sort of servo-positioning scheme to maintain head/track alignment; they use a stepper motor arrangement similar to that of many floppy drives, so any mechanical drifting doesn't get corrected. Leaving two diagonally-opposed screws loose solved the problem in every case. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 08:25:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:25:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: <20110422133446.H15936@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 22, 11 02:00:55 pm Message-ID: > > > >>=A0In auto repair, the newbie would be sent to get spotted paint, rubbe= > r nails, > > >> and a metric Crescent wrench (all of which actually exist). > > On Fri, 22 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I'm curious where rubber nails are used. > > attaching rubber weather stripping to wood. "Rubber nails" are made of > steel :-( I've seen a fastener shapped like a nail (cylindrical with an enlarged head at one end and a point at hte other) made of rubber (well, OK, a synthetic elastomer). IIRC, it was used to fix the speedometer cable to the gearbox in a Citroen BX. I would think some people would call that a 'rubber nail' too. > It has been several decades since I used a Crescent [adjustable] wrench, > due to my obsession with using properly fitting wrenches, but I have 100mm > and 150mm Crescent wrenches, if I ever need them. I have a small one (4"/100mm) in my toolkit (I tend to work on small devices). I very rarely use it, haviong got an almost complete set of imperial, metric and BA spanners, but it's there 'just in case'. Like you, I prefer to use the right tool :-) > > > BTW, since "Crescent Wrench" and "Vise-grips" are trademarked brand names > that have become commonly misused to refer to any manufacturer's product > that resembles them, what do you call the Stanley adjustable [Crescent > Style] wrench that has a [Vise-Grips style] lever that takes up the slack > and clamps/locks it? Over here, the 'Crescent Wrench' is called an adjustable spanner, which is not a trade name. 'Vise Grips' anre normally called a 'Mole Wrench', which certainy in a trade name, I think the generic term is 'self locking pliers'. We also tend to call slip-joint pliers a 'water pump wrench'. I have no idea why. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 08:27:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:27:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Internships (was Re: Selectric speed and durability (was Re: In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Apr 22, 11 02:07:40 pm Message-ID: > > In an industry where most people (no offense intended to Cameron) have a > > VERY high opinions of their own abilities and their own levels of > > professionalism, it's amazing that this kind of crap happens. > > > I think it boils down to the knuckle dragging attitude of, "If *I* had to > do it, then so do *YOU*." To tie in another thread, I feel that many old-time radho amateurs feel that a Morse test should still be part of the license exam for much the same reason. They had to do it, so do you... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 08:56:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:56:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <955CF4B7120A4881906A5B6AB7AEA757@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 23, 11 00:39:57 am Message-ID: > > >> Can you explain, please? > > In Brazil, land of the politically incorrect, we would say "Tony just > got blond hair!" :oD Well, I'm certainly gettting _grey_ hair, but that's a totally different thing :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 08:35:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:35:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Apr 22, 11 02:34:36 pm Message-ID: > Left handed pipe wrenches are another fun one. (or a spool of flight > line, a box of grid squares, etc.) I had a 5 gallon bucket behind a telco Another old favourite is a 'tub of relative bearing grease'. Or a 'can of pneumatic fluid', but Philip Belben uses that trem for those sprayduster cans... > rack years ago. It caught water from a roof leak, but I told everyone it > was there to catch dropped packets. :) You mean it wasn;'t the bit bucket for /dev/null ?? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 09:04:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:04:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Apr 23, 11 00:22:33 am Message-ID: > > hi i'm 23 have a love for the history of computers and recently got a pdp8a Hello and welcome to the list. > with a nice collection of stuff There are quite a few PDP8 owners/enthiasts here. I've got an 8/e with 32K words of core, RX01, TU56 and PC04 on my desk. I've also got an 8/a upstairs somewhere, but it's got the 8/e CPU board set in it, not the hex-height 8/a CPU board. I am told that was a stnadard variant. I assume you've found bitsavers as a useful source of manuals. [...] > and then these > http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5155/card3u.jpg > http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4624/card2q.jpg > http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9238/adc120z.jpg I asusme those are the interface board for the spectrophotometer. You may well find theycan beused for other things. I'd probably take the time to trace out the schematics (they don/t look all that complicated, and you have the Omnibus pinouts as a reference), and see what they really do. That ADC module (or was it a DAC?) in the middle of one of the boards looks 'fun' > > and 2 teletype asr33's with hook up for the pdp8a Nice. Agian, plenty of ASR33 owners here... I would strongly advise you to get the maintenance manuals and go ove the lubrication points before running thsse 'seriously'. Oil is a lot easier to find that spare parts :-) > i also have a heath h89 thats curently waitin for parts from a member at > sebhc I have a Z90 (which is essentailly the smae machine but factory assembled and with differnt options as stanard). What parts are missing from yours? > a h11 (ls1-11) with a nice collection of cubus cards ^^^^^ Qbus, surely? > h10 reader > > Geworkwaster 1 in need of parts and bunch of other GE faunic related stuff > such as software some plc's controller cards for hooking into computers > ect... > > a sick ibm p70 think it needs a floppy as i can't get it to read disks > > ibm model 50 > > bunch of industrial software > > a sick osborn 1 > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 09:07:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:07:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: <4DB266E9.5000002@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at Apr 23, 11 01:43:05 am Message-ID: > > Can someone here please explain to me, in ** simple English **, the > difference (in usage, not in how they work) between a "control grid > tube" and a "barrier grid tube" ... ? I am not sure if the terms have different meanings in the States, but over here, they're not really related at all... A 'control grid' is an electrode that varies the strength of the electron stream. Such as the grid in a triode, the first grid in a tetrode or pentode, the first grid in a CRT, etc. A 'barrier grid' is specific to a particular type of storage CRT, and IIRC, it's an electrode ot equalise the potential across the storage target. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 09:11:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:11:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: vacuum tube question In-Reply-To: <9d25543946ffbc631d2b7e605fcb1a07@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 23, 11 00:09:49 am Message-ID: [...] > - CRTs also generally have a control grid, but it might be said to be a > bit of a misnomer as the input signal is often/usually applied to the > cathode. Agreed, particualrly with the 'often/usually' part. It's not 'always' :-). I am sure I worked on something recently where the CRT brigthness modulation was applied to the first grid ('control grid'). Possibly an HP2623 terminal. [...] > - The control grid is usually but not always the first grid after the > cathode. Indeed. I've seen valves (tubes) which were designed to operate at 24V anode (plate) voltage and which had an acceletor grid (connected to a +ve voltage source) betwene the cathode and control grid. -tony From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Apr 24 09:33:34 2011 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:33:34 -0400 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB42D11.4020003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <167815.69058.qm@smtp110.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:00:49 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > One important thing for ST-225s and ST-251s is to not tighten the >screws at all four corners. After many unexplained high-error-rate >installations, we determined that the drive's metal substrate twists >slightly due to thermal expansion when the drive heats up, throwing off >the head/track alignment. These drives don't use any sort of >servo-positioning scheme to maintain head/track alignment; they use a >stepper motor arrangement similar to that of many floppy drives, so any >mechanical drifting doesn't get corrected. Leaving two >diagonally-opposed screws loose solved the problem in every case. I remember one system, came in having drive problems, when I loosened the screws on the drive, there was a distinct noise as the case tension was relieved. After the stress was relieved the drive tested ok, and went on to work just fine for many years. Well that is after tweeking the case back closer to square and remouning the drive at cross corners. It looked like the drive was tight in a twisted cage, in a case that was twisted back so the cover would fit better. The other Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 24 09:42:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:42:39 -0400 Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB436DF.7030400@neurotica.com> On 4/24/11 9:35 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Left handed pipe wrenches are another fun one. (or a spool of flight >> line, a box of grid squares, etc.) I had a 5 gallon bucket behind a telco > > Another old favourite is a 'tub of relative bearing grease'. Would that be bearing grease made from one's relatives? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 24 09:47:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:47:17 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB437F5.7000606@neurotica.com> On 4/24/11 10:04 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > There are quite a few PDP8 owners/enthiasts here. I've got an 8/e with > 32K words of core, RX01, TU56 and PC04 on my desk. I've also got an 8/a > upstairs somewhere, but it's got the 8/e CPU board set in it, not the > hex-height 8/a CPU board. I am told that was a stnadard variant. Three 8/e systems (the "big one" has an RX01, TU56, 2xRK05, and a hacked HP optical PTR), an 8/m, and an SBC6120 here. I'm STILL looking for an 8/a and STILL can't seem to get my hands on one. I have the same problem with the Heath H-89...despite the fact that they're not particularly rare or sought-after, and opportunities keep popping up, they keep slipping through my fingers...sold or given to someone else at the last minute, owner disappeared, etc etc. Very frustrating. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 09:43:03 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 11:43:03 -0300 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> > On 24/04/11 03:38, Eric Smith wrote: >> Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it >> wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. > What about the Kalok Octagon series? > *shudder* Was it WORSE than JTS? Never seen one of these in Brazil... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 09:43:27 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 11:43:27 -0300 Subject: KEYS References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com><4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca><4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1E3BF45870DB4B7DB0392ED8F5500466@portajara> ! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 8:56 AM Subject: Re: KEYS >? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 09:48:19 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 11:48:19 -0300 Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric References: Message-ID: <7D848A15A648407EA8485BE05986A0AE@portajara> > Over here, the 'Crescent Wrench' is called an adjustable spanner, which > is not a trade name. 'Vise Grips' anre normally called a 'Mole Wrench', > which certainy in a trade name, I think the generic term is 'self locking > pliers'. In Brazil we call the crescent wrench the 'engineer tool' because most of them are lazy to get the right tool :) > We also tend to call slip-joint pliers a 'water pump wrench'. I have no > idea why. Because the mouth of it opens waay larger than normal pliers, and water pump locking pressure rings need a larger mouth to unlock it From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 09:39:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:39:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Apr 23, 11 02:28:01 pm Message-ID: > > do i dare mention the boxs of tubes You;re in the right place, then :-) > anyhow eventualy going to need some advice on how to power up my pdp8 Ask away :-). I know what _I_ would do, it's the same for jsut abotu any clasisc computer. My procedure is basically ; 1) Take apart anything that will sensibly come apart. No, I don't mean to deoslder all the ICs from the PCBs. But pull out all the boards, remove covers, things like that 2) A visal inspuction (and cleanup), looking for burnt/borken parts, cooling fans tht don't run freely, open-circuit light bulbs, blown fuses, etc. Anything taht can be easily checked, is... 3) Electricla safety check. Check the contiuuity of the earth (ground) wire, and the iunsulation resistnace between live parts and the case (at at least twice the mains voltage, I normally use 1000V). 4) Assemble the PSU section only, and if necessary connect it to dummy load resistors. Power up and check the output voltages. Don't go any further until they're cortrect 5) Assemble a 'mimimal system'. CPU + front panel + one memory board, something like that. Get that working (at least ot the extent of running a simple program entered on the panel). 6) Add the remaining parts one at a time and check. If you cna run the manufacturers diagnostics, do so. But be warned that in soem cases such diagnostics will tell you if soemthing is wrong, but may not be too useful in actually findign the fault. DEC ones are normally OK, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 09:42:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:42:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Apr 23, 11 09:58:26 pm Message-ID: > And got the KEY :) Does the 8/a need a key, or is it a knob like the 11/34? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 09:44:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:44:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Apr 23, 11 10:54:38 pm Message-ID: > How many kinds of keys did they use, on the PDP's? I've come across 3 : The 'XX2247' tubular key A plastic tubular 'key' with no nothces, the lock switch has no pins. Any tubular key of the right size (including an XX2247) will operate that switch A small 'Yale type' key used in a wafer tumbler cylidner lock on the 11/05 and 11/10 -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 24 09:55:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:55:53 -0400 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <1E3BF45870DB4B7DB0392ED8F5500466@portajara> References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com><4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca><4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> <1E3BF45870DB4B7DB0392ED8F5500466@portajara> Message-ID: <4DB439F9.7000506@neurotica.com> Gezundheit. On 4/24/11 10:43 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > ! > > --- > Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 > Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 8:56 AM > Subject: Re: KEYS > > >> ? > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 10:07:06 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:07:06 -0300 Subject: new here References: <4DB437F5.7000606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <17FC73ABA880432C9323B6CA74FD3532@portajara> > I'm STILL looking for an 8/a and STILL can't seem to get my hands on > one. I have the same problem with the Heath H-89...despite the fact that > they're not particularly rare or sought-after, and opportunities keep > popping up, they keep slipping through my fingers...sold or given to > someone else at the last minute, owner disappeared, etc etc. Very > frustrating. I'm not that good to write in english today (sometimes my mind lock up, go figure) but I'll tell you a funny history: I took almot two years to have...A mouse :) When I got my first XT, I had the power supply (caseless), the HD/controller, the motherboard and the CGA video board. Had no monitor (I used an old tv. rsrsrs), no floppy and no case for the computer. In some months, I got a 286 with coprocessor board and I wanted to run autocad, needed a mouse. So I went to buy a genius mouse (it was a very common mouse in Brazil that times) that came inside a 5 1/4 plastic disk box :) But EVERY TIME I got a mouse, something happened that I couldn't buy the mouse, or if I had bought it, I had to sell to buy something else for the computer keep working. It took me almost two entire years to get a mouse as a gift from my boss and have it working on my PC :) "some strange forces didn't want me to have a mouse" hahahahahaha It happens. Even with SH before the IT ;) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 10:09:54 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:09:54 -0300 Subject: KEYS References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com><4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca><4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> <1E3BF45870DB4B7DB0392ED8F5500466@portajara> <4DB439F9.7000506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8E233F2282224A2197AF39D98D9C4AD2@portajara> Danke! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 11:55 AM Subject: Re: KEYS > > Gezundheit. > > On 4/24/11 10:43 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> >> ! >> >> --- >> Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 >> Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 8:56 AM >> Subject: Re: KEYS >> >> >>> ? >> > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Apr 24 10:49:51 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 11:49:51 -0400 Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: <46882.15936.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <46882.15936.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201104241149.51535.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, April 24, 2011, William Maddox wrote: > Any fans of 90's-vintage IBM gear to save this machine from > the gold scrappers? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170628677445 It looks like a scrapper has already bid on it too. :( That looks about like the model I had, which I handed off to another ccmper. It's missing the HMC, but I think I have a copy of the software necessary for one.. though I'm not 100% sure where it is. I think that a PC Server 300 is what the software expects to be installed on. I'd go for it, but it's too far away, and I don't have the money to spend on that after buying my z890. :( -- Patrick Finnegan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 24 10:57:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 08:57:02 -0700 Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: <7D848A15A648407EA8485BE05986A0AE@portajara> References: , <7D848A15A648407EA8485BE05986A0AE@portajara> Message-ID: <4DB3E5DE.11917.606D8@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2011 at 11:48, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > In Brazil we call the crescent wrench the 'engineer tool' because > most of them are lazy to get the right tool :) An old US slang term for the "crescent wrench" is "Hillbilly fitall". What is the od US monkey wrench called in Brazil? --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 11:06:32 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 13:06:32 -0300 Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric References: , <7D848A15A648407EA8485BE05986A0AE@portajara> <4DB3E5DE.11917.606D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > An old US slang term for the "crescent wrench" is "Hillbilly fitall". > What is the od US monkey wrench called in Brazil? Chave-de-grifo, there is no direct translation to english...You're talking about this, eh? http://conteudo.efacil.com.br/p/05/400/0500751_01.jpg There is a good question...Why is it called "monkey wrench"? :oD I always read that but never had the curiosity to ask... CCtalk is (international) culture! ;oD From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Apr 24 11:49:11 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 09:49:11 -0700 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: from "Adrian Stoness" at Apr 23, 11 02:28:01 pm, Message-ID: One thing about taking it apart: before you do, record what card is in which slot. If you have multiples of a given card (for instance, more than one core memory card set), mark them somehow so you can put them back the way they came out. (N.B. for memory card sets: they ARE sets, calibrated as a unit - don't mix and match!) On the Omnibus, you should be able to put most cards into any open slot - it says so right here. But there is also documentation suggesting the ordering, such as the PDP-8 Maintenance Manual set (which is available on BitSavers). You may find that the cards are actually not in the "best" order. But if you record the original sequence, you can always get back to a situation where the machine probably once worked. When you check voltages, don't just look at levels. If you have or can borrow an oscilloscope (a good tool to own for this hobby), look at the power lines for AC component. A small ripple can be accepted, but the filter capacitors in these machines are well beyond their lifetimes. If you are the cautious sort, disconnect the filter caps and perform a leak-down test, replacing parts that fail. If you're really cautious, just replace them - that's what we do with power caps if they're over twenty years old. There's a date code on the part. Once you have the machine reassembled, take another look at the power buses. If you see a lot of higher-frequency noise on the power lines, some card has bad bypass caps. This can lead to frustrating intermittent failures, as digital logic interprets noise as signal. Core memory is particularly noisy. Just some things I've learned restoring these things.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 7:39 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: new here > > do i dare mention the boxs of tubes You;re in the right place, then :-) > anyhow eventualy going to need some advice on how to power up my pdp8 Ask away :-). I know what _I_ would do, it's the same for jsut abotu any clasisc computer. My procedure is basically ; 1) Take apart anything that will sensibly come apart. No, I don't mean to deoslder all the ICs from the PCBs. But pull out all the boards, remove covers, things like that 2) A visal inspuction (and cleanup), looking for burnt/borken parts, cooling fans tht don't run freely, open-circuit light bulbs, blown fuses, etc. Anything taht can be easily checked, is... 3) Electricla safety check. Check the contiuuity of the earth (ground) wire, and the iunsulation resistnace between live parts and the case (at at least twice the mains voltage, I normally use 1000V). 4) Assemble the PSU section only, and if necessary connect it to dummy load resistors. Power up and check the output voltages. Don't go any further until they're cortrect 5) Assemble a 'mimimal system'. CPU + front panel + one memory board, something like that. Get that working (at least ot the extent of running a simple program entered on the panel). 6) Add the remaining parts one at a time and check. If you cna run the manufacturers diagnostics, do so. But be warned that in soem cases such diagnostics will tell you if soemthing is wrong, but may not be too useful in actually findign the fault. DEC ones are normally OK, though. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 24 12:33:28 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:33:28 +0100 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk> <7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> Message-ID: <4DB45EE8.8070802@philpem.me.uk> On 24/04/11 15:43, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> On 24/04/11 03:38, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it >>> wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. >> What about the Kalok Octagon series? >> *shudder* > > Was it WORSE than JTS? Never seen one of these in Brazil... From what I heard, Kalok was started by the guy who was responsible for the Seagate ST225, and was later absorbed into JTS. From the Redhill Guide [1]: > Kalok Octagon KL-230 > > Kalok was founded by a former Seagate engineer, the same man who had > been largely responsible for the ST-225. The company seemed to live > on the edge of bankruptcy most of the time, and later morphed into > JTS. Like all Kalok drives, the KL-230s had a dreadful reputation but > we always found this model pretty good. We never saw new ones, only > second-hand, so maybe all the duds had already expired by then. And a bit more in a later section of the RHG [2]: > Kalok Octagon KL3100 > > Possibly the worst drive ever made. Kalok went out of business in > 1994, and no wonder! These were a valiant attempt to produce a modern > drive without really having the capabilities. It was a reasonably > fast IDE drive, with a nice black finish, and dreadful old stepper > technology inside. We've only ever seen three of these things, and > none of them worked for long. Another one came into the shop a year > or two ago ? that's it in the picture ? but we have never been brave > enough to plug it in. > > We first met the Octagon back in the days when 245 and 345MB drives > were selling new. We traded it in sight unseen and brand unknown on > the understanding that it would be in good working order with no bad > sectors. When we opened up the case and saw what it was, we didn't > want it ? they were notorious even then ? but we hadn't specified any > particular brand when talking to our customer and weren't really in a > position to go back on the deal without breaking faith. So we tested > it: tested it with every diagnostic program we could lay our hands > on, hoping to find an objective problem (any problem!) which would > justify us not taking it. It made all the usual weird Kalok noises > and ? passed everything. So we had to take it. But still we didn't > trust it, and we kept it in-house on the test-bench for six months or > so and never had the slightest problem. Eventually, we had to admit > that it was in perfect working order and there was no reason why we > shouldn't sell it just the same as any other drive. > > It was back the very next day: dead as mutton. We gave our customer a > bigger brand-new Maxtor instead, so he was happy, but we were several > hundred dollars poorer. For years after that, when we traded in a > drive by telephone, we would still say it had to be "in good working > order" but then add "and of reputable manufacture"! [1]: http://www.redhill.net.au/d/d-a.html [2]: http://www.redhill.net.au/d/d-b.html One of those little bastards was the reason I got banned from the computer lab at school. Our "industry expert" IT teacher theorised that because the machine was "working" when he switched it on in the morning (it booted to RISC OS, he didn't try running anything -- early versions of RISC OS can boot and run entirely from ROM) then "someone must have run a program that broke the hard drive". His words exactly. What I'd like to know is how the guy responsible for what was reputed to be one of the most reliable drives ever (the ST225), could later go on and design the LEAST reliable drive *series* ever made (the Octagon)... BTW, there's a HP 16700B on ebay at the moment which appears to have been used at Maxtor. Item number 190524469565 if anyone's interested. Note the hostname shown -- from what I can gather, "corp.mxtr.net" was the DNS suffix used by Maxtor's corporate network. (Yes, the hostname could have been changed in the meantime, but it's an interesting escapee nonetheless -- I'd have expected Maxtor / Seagate to destroy the HDD before letting it out of the building...) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 24 12:42:13 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:42:13 +0100 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: <955CF4B7120A4881906A5B6AB7AEA757@portajara> References: <955CF4B7120A4881906A5B6AB7AEA757@portajara> Message-ID: <4DB460F5.90506@philpem.me.uk> On 23/04/11 04:39, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Can you explain, please? > > In Brazil, land of the politically incorrect, we would say "Tony just > got blond hair!" :oD ROFL! If you're saying what I suspect you are... then there's a British alternative version of the same idiom: "$PERSON just had a blond moment!" > BTW, do you know what happens when a blondie tints the hair black? > "Artificial Intelligence!" :oD > > (drums, hi-hat) That's an old one, but worth a grin nonetheless :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 24 12:47:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:47:50 -0700 Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4DB3FFD6.26041.6B79AC@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2011 at 13:06, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Chave-de-grifo, there is no direct translation to english...You're > talking about this, eh? > > http://conteudo.efacil.com.br/p/05/400/0500751_01.jpg > > There is a good question...Why is it called "monkey wrench"? :oD I > > always read that but never had the curiosity to ask... No, that's what we'd call a "pipe wrench" or "Stillson wrench" in the US. The "monkey wrench" has smooth jaws and is made for manipulating nuts and bolts, so the jaws stay parallel and do not bite into the nut or bolt: http://www.mulewagon.com/images/products/diamond-calk-horseshoe- monkey-wrench--vintage-tool_627192.jpg Etymology for the "monkey wrench" is uncertain. You can read about the subject here: http://www.davistownmuseum.org/bioBostonWrench.htm Sending an apprentice to find a "left handed monkey wrench" is another common joke. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 09:51:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:51:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB437F5.7000606@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 24, 11 10:47:17 am Message-ID: > one. I have the same problem with the Heath H-89...despite the fact > that they're not particularly rare or sought-after, and opportunities > keep popping up, they keep slipping through my fingers...sold or given > to someone else at the last minute, owner disappeared, etc etc. Very > frustrating. I have that problem with HP1000s. I think I've had sort-of leads on 3 or 4 of them, _all_ have fallen through. It's clearly a machine I am not intended to own. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 12:49:05 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:49:05 -0300 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk><7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB45EE8.8070802@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: >What I'd like to know is how the guy responsible for what was reputed to >be one of the most reliable drives ever (the ST225), could later go on >and design the LEAST reliable drive *series* ever made (the Octagon)... I could read and write stories like this all day long ;o) Happy easter evreryone! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 24 12:59:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:59:50 -0700 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com>, <7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> Message-ID: <4DB402A6.15278.76761C@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2011 at 11:43, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > On 24/04/11 03:38, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it > >> wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. > > What about the Kalok Octagon series? > > *shudder* > > Was it WORSE than JTS? Never seen one of these in Brazil... Anything associated with Jugi Tandon, be it his 5.25" floppy drives or Tandon/JTS/Kalok is ultimately garbage. Jugi's approach was to sell for the lowest price. That we have vintage collectors who spend the time to rehabilitate old TM-100 floppy drives is amazing. In the 80s, I had a couple of friends who worked at the Tandon "R&D" facility on Coleman in San Jose (not terribly far from the Coleman Still). If you called to reach someone before 10 AM or after 4 PM, you'd be disappointed. A visitor was an excuse to have a 3 hour lunch. They never could tell me exactly what they did there. I suspect it was a way for Jugi to claim R&D tax credits. While prowling around the junk stores once, I ran into a pile of 4MB Tandon hard drives sitting in a corner of the warehouse. I asked about them, and the guy behind the counter said that I could pick one out for $5. His boss then showed up and said I could have one for $5 as long as I took at least 9 more for free. He was desperate to get rid of the things. I did end up going home with 10 drives, but scrapped the entire lot--most worked, but not reliably. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 13:07:11 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:07:11 -0300 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon References: <955CF4B7120A4881906A5B6AB7AEA757@portajara> <4DB460F5.90506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > If you're saying what I suspect you are... then there's a British > alternative version of the same idiom: What do you suspect I am? :oD > "$PERSON just had a blond moment!" HAHAHHA I'll use that in portuguese :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 13:08:19 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:08:19 -0300 Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric References: , <4DB3FFD6.26041.6B79AC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > No, that's what we'd call a "pipe wrench" or "Stillson wrench" in > the US. The "monkey wrench" has smooth jaws and is made for > manipulating nuts and bolts, so the jaws stay parallel and do not > bite into the nut or bolt: I though it was the same > http://www.mulewagon.com/images/products/diamond-calk-horseshoe- > monkey-wrench--vintage-tool_627192.jpg Interesting I don't remember ever seeing one of these in Brazil ;oO > Etymology for the "monkey wrench" is uncertain. You can read about > the subject here: Very interesting reading, thanks! :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 13:13:26 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:13:26 -0300 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com>, <7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB402A6.15278.76761C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > While prowling around the junk stores once, I ran into a pile of 4MB > Tandon hard drives sitting in a corner of the warehouse. I asked > about them, and the guy behind the counter said that I could pick one > out for $5. His boss then showed up and said I could have one for $5 > as long as I took at least 9 more for free. He was desperate to get > rid of the things. I did end up going home with 10 drives, but > scrapped the entire lot--most worked, but not reliably. Congratulations, you just got the seal of the Joke of The Day(r) in CCTalk :oD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 13:10:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 19:10:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Apr 24, 11 09:49:11 am Message-ID: > > One thing about taking it apart: before you do, record what card is in whic= > h slot. If you have multiples of a given card (for instance, more than one= Or more generally 'make notes'. I never take anything apart without a notebook and pen to hand to record cable positions, board positions, which plug goes where, etc. It saves a lot of time later ;-) Some people like ot use a digital camera for this but I am not sure if it will show what needs to be recorded in all cases. So even if I had one, I'd want a notebook too. You may want to arbitrarily number the slots (say '1' at the bottom, it doesn't matter if you are consistent!) and then afix labels to the PCBs (e.g. tie-on tags with the string passing through the handle rivets) to indentify which board came from each slot. [...] > (which is available on BitSavers). You may find that the cards are actual= > ly not in the "best" order. But if you record the original sequence, you c= > an always get back to a situation where the machine probably once worked. = Indeed. It is very useufl to have a configuration that you know has worked. If it doesn't work now, it means a component has certainly failed. And that's something you can trace. Rather than having a setup that maybe shouldn't work even if all the parts are good. > =20 > > When you check voltages, don't just look at levels. If you have or can bor= > row an oscilloscope (a good tool to own for this hobby), look at the power = Actaulyl, it's not an instruemtn I use all that often, but anyway... > lines for AC component. A small ripple can be accepted, but the filter cap= > acitors in these machines are well beyond their lifetimes. If you are the = In some cases if the smothing capacitors still have some capacitance (albeit much less than they should do), you won't seen much, if any. ripple on no-load, but you will when you connect the dummy load (or the rest of the machine). In machines with swtiching regulators (and I have an idea that the 8/a is one of these), a dreid up or open-circuit output capacitor in the regualtor cicuit can put high voltage spikes (around 15V) on the output. These will hopefully trip the crowbar circuit, but it's something to watch for. > cautious sort, disconnect the filter caps and perform a leak-down test, rep= > lacing parts that fail. If you're really cautious, just replace them - tha= > t's what we do with power caps if they're over twenty years old. There's a= > date code on the part. =20 If I did that, I'd have replaced every capactior in every machine I own, including the machine I am currently typing this on. I haven't. In fact many of my machines, including ones that are 40 years old, are still runnign with all their original capacitors. Yes, capacitors fo fail. I've replaced a number over the years. And they can fial from just old age if the electrolyte dries up. But in m experience it's not the problem that some people claim it is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 12:55:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:55:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: <7D848A15A648407EA8485BE05986A0AE@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 24, 11 11:48:19 am Message-ID: > > > Over here, the 'Crescent Wrench' is called an adjustable spanner, which > > is not a trade name. 'Vise Grips' anre normally called a 'Mole Wrench', > > which certainy in a trade name, I think the generic term is 'self locking > > pliers'. > > In Brazil we call the crescent wrench the 'engineer tool' because most > of them are lazy to get the right tool :) I see.... Some of the older and somewhat politically incorrect practical engineers over here refer to a hammer as a 'Manchester screwdriver'.... Various other towns/cities are sometimes used. Or a 'tfa', meaning 'Tool, fine adjustment'. There is also 'txfa', 'Tool extra fine adjustment' for a large sledgehammer ;-) > > > We also tend to call slip-joint pliers a 'water pump wrench'. I have no > > idea why. > > Because the mouth of it opens waay larger than normal pliers, and water > pump locking pressure rings need a larger mouth to unlock it Sure, but it's useful for locking rings/screw-on end caps on many otehr things too. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 24 13:19:47 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 19:19:47 +0100 Subject: Lisa sighting at Notacon In-Reply-To: References: <955CF4B7120A4881906A5B6AB7AEA757@portajara> <4DB460F5.90506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DB469C3.3050107@philpem.me.uk> On 24/04/11 19:07, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> If you're saying what I suspect you are... then there's a British >> alternative version of the same idiom: > > What do you suspect I am? :oD "$PERSON just said or did something rather stupid." >> "$PERSON just had a blond moment!" > > HAHAHHA I'll use that in portuguese :) It's also often applied to one's self... "Hey Bill, what's the point of the variable $dt_shift in this code you wrote? Oh, wait.. never mind, blond moment -- I just spotted the comment below the value assignment." The meaning in this case being something to the effect of "Oh damn, I just screwed up." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 24 13:24:35 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 19:24:35 +0100 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk><7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB45EE8.8070802@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DB46AE3.8050008@philpem.me.uk> On 24/04/11 18:49, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> What I'd like to know is how the guy responsible for what was reputed >> to be one of the most reliable drives ever (the ST225), could later go >> on and design the LEAST reliable drive *series* ever made (the >> Octagon)... > > I could read and write stories like this all day long ;o) Aww, come on, you can't say that without sharing one of your own war stories :) It's like that old joke... "How do you keep an idiot in suspense?" "I don't know..." "I'll tell you later." *GRIN* -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 13:34:02 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:34:02 -0300 Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric References: Message-ID: <599CA056C1A74E1B86D22CA9FCB90120@portajara> > Some of the older and somewhat politically incorrect practical engineers > over here refer to a hammer as a 'Manchester screwdriver'.... Various > other towns/cities are sometimes used. ROTF!!! We call that "drive alignment tool" or "asus motherboard repair kit" :oD > Sure, but it's useful for locking rings/screw-on end caps on many otehr > things too. Sure, but it is very hard to take the water pump locking rings with a "universal plier". Ask me how I know :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 13:37:40 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:37:40 -0300 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk><7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB45EE8.8070802@philpem.me.uk> <4DB46AE3.8050008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <155251E1243544AB8664A8BB6E5E1A4F@portajara> > Aww, come on, you can't say that without sharing one of your own war > stories :) Ah, lots of stories...I worked for 14 years repairing computers, in the "middle age" of PC computing in Brazil, lots of things happened :) Things like "the monitor is not working" (of course, it wasn't turned on or no power cable) or "why the computer is not connecting to the net?" (because you have no telephone line! Wireless networking wasn't invented or pratical at this time!). But they are all common jokes most of you know, I'll take no laughts from you with my jokes :) But I'll try to be writting during the day. I'm in a lonely day (my girlfriend is comemorating easter with her parents and they don't like me) and willing to talk. Just in case someone uses MSN, mine is webmaster at pinball-taito.com.br :) Oh, lonely day :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 13:52:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 19:52:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB402A6.15278.76761C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 24, 11 10:59:50 am Message-ID: > Anything associated with Jugi Tandon, be it his 5.25" floppy drives > or Tandon/JTS/Kalok is ultimately garbage. Jugi's approach was to > sell for the lowest price. That we have vintage collectors who spend > the time to rehabilitate old TM-100 floppy drives is amazing. As one such collector, I am curious as to what's so bad about it. It's certainly a much better mechanical design than the Shugart SA400, and the electroncius doesn't seem to have any major problems with the design. I think the only real problem I ever had with one was a faulty track 0 microswitch (admittedly an optical sensor would have been better). But I had no problem getting a perfect replacement for the swtich (right down to the correct operating force) and fitting/aligning it wasn't a big job. What 5.25" full-height floppy drive do you like? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 24 14:00:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:00:10 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB4733A.7020209@neurotica.com> On 4/24/11 10:51 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> one. I have the same problem with the Heath H-89...despite the fact >> that they're not particularly rare or sought-after, and opportunities >> keep popping up, they keep slipping through my fingers...sold or given >> to someone else at the last minute, owner disappeared, etc etc. Very >> frustrating. > > I have that problem with HP1000s. I think I've had sort-of leads on 3 or > 4 of them, _all_ have fallen through. It's clearly a machine I am not > intended to own. Crap, that sucks! If you find an 8/a and I find an HP1000, we've gotta trade! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 24 14:01:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:01:14 -0400 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <155251E1243544AB8664A8BB6E5E1A4F@portajara> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk><7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB45EE8.8070802@philpem.me.uk> <4DB46AE3.8050008@philpem.me.uk> <155251E1243544AB8664A8BB6E5E1A4F@portajara> Message-ID: <4DB4737A.1080402@neurotica.com> On 4/24/11 2:37 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > But I'll try to be writting during the day. I'm in a lonely day (my > girlfriend is comemorating easter with her parents and they don't like > me) and willing to talk. Just in case someone uses MSN, mine is > webmaster at pinball-taito.com.br :) > > Oh, lonely day :) I'm in the same boat. My fiancee' and her mother (who DOES like me...I've known her longer than I've known her daughter!) went down to North Carolina to spend a long Easter weekend with family. There are supposed to be something like eight babies there...a most decidedly non-Dave-compatible environment. One screaming, shrieking, slobbering baby I can handle...but EIGHT? No way. I elected to stay at home so I could get some work done. I spoke with my fiancee' on the phone a few minutes ago, and she was miserable. Wonder why. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Apr 24 14:04:44 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:04:44 -0700 Subject: Replacing capacitors (was RE: new here) Message-ID: Yes, one can get lucky that way - and I have machines in my personal collection where I have not replaced the filter caps (yet). Component tolerances can allow continued functioning even with significantly degraded components. But if I turn one of those machines on and it doesn't start up, that's my problem. If I turn the key on one of our machines at work, in front of a crowd of people, and it doesn't start up, that's a different story. Industry studies (work by Cornell Dublier) show that aluminum electrolytic capacitors have a limited life span. (The most common failure mode is not drying out, it is elevated ESR.) Then there have been the various scandals about substandard components. I think it bears consideration that electrolytic capacitors are not one of the most reliable components in our information systems. --- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 11:10 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: new here > cautious sort, disconnect the filter caps and perform a leak-down test, rep= > lacing parts that fail. If you're really cautious, just replace them - tha= > t's what we do with power caps if they're over twenty years old. There's a= > date code on the part. =20 If I did that, I'd have replaced every capactior in every machine I own, including the machine I am currently typing this on. I haven't. In fact many of my machines, including ones that are 40 years old, are still runnign with all their original capacitors. Yes, capacitors fo fail. I've replaced a number over the years. And they can fial from just old age if the electrolyte dries up. But in m experience it's not the problem that some people claim it is. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 24 14:06:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:06:39 -0400 Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: <46882.15936.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <46882.15936.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DB474BF.9030608@neurotica.com> On 4/24/11 7:56 AM, William Maddox wrote: > Any fans of 90's-vintage IBM gear to save this machine from > the gold scrappers? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170628677445 Damn! I could probably afford to buy it, but transporting it is a different matter. Someone really, really needs to grab these machines. They're very thin on the ground, are really quite neat, and should be easily runnable (relative to many other mainframes, that is) if one has some DASD. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 24 14:18:00 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:18:00 -0500 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB402A6.15278.76761C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201104241920.p3OJJt0j018186@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:13 PM 4/24/2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Congratulations, you just got the seal of the Joke of The Day(r) in CCTalk :oD Anothe way to tell that joke is to say that first prize is one Kalok. Second prize is two Kaloks. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 14:24:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 20:24:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB4733A.7020209@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 24, 11 03:00:10 pm Message-ID: > > I have that problem with HP1000s. I think I've had sort-of leads on 3 or > > 4 of them, _all_ have fallen through. It's clearly a machine I am not > > intended to own. > > Crap, that sucks! If you find an 8/a and I find an HP1000, we've > gotta trade! ;) There is the slight problem that neither of these machines are exactly light in weight, so shipping them would be expensive. Very expensive... And I know where's there's an 8/a, but it's staying there (with the Pro350 I've sotred on top of it...) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 24 14:32:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:32:35 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB47AD3.5090701@neurotica.com> On 4/24/11 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I have that problem with HP1000s. I think I've had sort-of leads on 3 or >>> 4 of them, _all_ have fallen through. It's clearly a machine I am not >>> intended to own. >> >> Crap, that sucks! If you find an 8/a and I find an HP1000, we've >> gotta trade! ;) > > There is the slight problem that neither of these machines are exactly > light in weight, so shipping them would be expensive. Very expensive... > > And I know where's there's an 8/a, but it's staying there (with the > Pro350 I've sotred on top of it...) *pout* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 14:32:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 20:32:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing capacitors (was RE: new here) In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Apr 24, 11 12:04:44 pm Message-ID: > > Yes, one can get lucky that way - and I have machines in my personal collec= I must have been exceptionally lucky, then. I think all my HPs, all my Philips machines and all my PDPs have their original capacotrs. Oh wait a second, I did haev to repalce _one_ in the PSU of the 11/44. > tion where I have not replaced the filter caps (yet). Component tolerances= > can allow continued functioning even with significantly degraded component= > s. But if I turn one of those machines on and it doesn't start up, that's = > my problem. If I turn the key on one of our machines at work, in front of = > a crowd of people, and it doesn't start up, that's a different story. =20 Sure. You have to consider what hte 'loss' is if it fails in use. This may be in terms of lost time/profits, it may be in terms of damage ot other components, etc. It's like the comment we had a few weeks ago that desoldering an IC will reduce its reliability. This is probably true, but as I said at the time it's not something I've ever noticed, and I've desoldered and refitted many ICs. In one of my classic machines it doesn't matter id an IC fails a little beofre it otherwise would have done. Dor something safety-critical, or whatever, it wouldn/ > > Industry studies (work by Cornell Dublier) show that aluminum electrolytic = > capacitors have a limited life span. (The most common failure mode is not = Sure, and I undersntad the reasons for it. But I am not convinced it's tyhe problem that some people make out. > drying out, it is elevated ESR.) Then there have been the various scandals= > about substandard components. I think it bears consideration that electro= Said scandals tend to involve relatively modern components, not the ones I am talking about. > lytic capacitors are not one of the most reliable components in our informa= > tion systems. --- Ian=20 I don't know.... Certainly Iv'e replaced many more 2114 RAMs than electrolytic capacitors over the years. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 24 14:38:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:38:26 -0700 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: References: <4DB402A6.15278.76761C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 24, 11 10:59:50 am, Message-ID: <4DB419C2.20071.D0BBAB@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2011 at 19:52, Tony Duell wrote: > What 5.25" full-height floppy drive do you like? Full height? Micropolis, no question. Built like the proverbial brick privy. Maybe Qume after that (I'm sure that some will disagree on the DT/5s, but you asked). --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 14:36:39 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:36:39 -0300 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk><7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB45EE8.8070802@philpem.me.uk> <4DB46AE3.8050008@philpem.me.uk><155251E1243544AB8664A8BB6E5E1A4F@portajara> <4DB4737A.1080402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I'm in the same boat. My fiancee' and her mother (who DOES like Didn't you got married last week? :oO > supposed to be something like eight babies there...a most decidedly :oO > non-Dave-compatible environment. One screaming, shrieking, slobbering HUAHUAUHAUHAUHA ROTF!!! :oD Today is the day of good jokes :D From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 24 14:51:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 12:51:23 -0700 Subject: Replacing capacitors (was RE: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB41CCB.9309.DC96F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2011 at 12:04, Ian King wrote: > Industry studies (work by Cornell Dublier) show that aluminum > electrolytic capacitors have a limited life span. (The most common > failure mode is not drying out, it is elevated ESR.) Then there have > been the various scandals about substandard components. I'd also add, at least in the case of consumer devices, crappy designs leading to operation at elevated temperatures. I can show you units where electrolytics are hot-glued to heat sinks. Inverters and power supplies for LCD monitors are some of the worst examples. And then there's the sealed DC "wall wart" power supply. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 24 14:51:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:51:56 -0400 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk><7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB45EE8.8070802@philpem.me.uk> <4DB46AE3.8050008@philpem.me.uk><155251E1243544AB8664A8BB6E5E1A4F@portajara> <4DB4737A.1080402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB47F5C.8060507@neurotica.com> On 4/24/11 3:36 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I'm in the same boat. My fiancee' and her mother (who DOES like > > Didn't you got married last week? :oO Huh? Nope. Got engaged a few months ago. >> supposed to be something like eight babies there...a most decidedly > > :oO Yeah really. There isn't that much aspirin in the world. >> non-Dave-compatible environment. One screaming, shrieking, slobbering > > HUAHUAUHAUHAUHA ROTF!!! :oD > > Today is the day of good jokes :D :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 24 15:07:25 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 13:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com> <4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20110424130302.A90236@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> XX2247s aren't too hard to come by. If it hasn't already been done, it would make sense to post the depths of the cuts, so that anybody without one to copy can code-cut it. (I'm assuming that those who own them are no longer paranoid enough to want to keep it a "secret") -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Apr 24 15:26:43 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:26:43 -0400 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <20110424130302.A90236@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110424130302.A90236@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201104241626.44019.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, April 24, 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >> XX2247s aren't too hard to come by. > > If it hasn't already been done, it would make sense to post the > depths of the cuts, so that anybody without one to copy can code-cut > it. Erm, the "XX2247" is the cut-by-numbers code. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-February/010137.html Pat -- Patrick Finnegan From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 15:28:25 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:28:25 -0300 Subject: KEYS References: <4DB304FB.8060603@atarimuseum.com> <4DB32551.50206@neurotica.com><4DB38079.8020606@neurotica.com> <4DB39FE2.1040306@jetnet.ab.ca><4DB3A23C.2010701@neurotica.com> <4DB3AD0E.10307@jetnet.ab.ca> <20110424130302.A90236@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > If it hasn't already been done, it would make sense to post the depths of > the cuts, so that anybody without one to copy can code-cut it. Old Fred, XX2247 isn't the depth cut of the key? :oO From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 24 15:31:50 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 13:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110424132740.D90236@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > We also tend to call slip-joint pliers a 'water pump wrench'. I have no > idea why. Here they are often called "Channel-locks" which is a trademark. > > BTW, since "Crescent Wrench" and "Vise-grips" are trademarked brand names > > that have become commonly misused to refer to any manufacturer's product > > that resembles them, what do you call the Stanley adjustable [Crescent > > Style] wrench that has a [Vise-Grips style] lever that takes up the slack > > and clamps/locks it? > > Over here, the 'Crescent Wrench' is called an adjustable spanner, which > is not a trade name. 'Vise Grips' anre normally called a 'Mole Wrench', > which certainy in a trade name, I think the generic term is 'self locking > pliers'. So, it would be a "self locking adjustable spanner". "Stanley Vise-grips Crescent wrench" sounds better, but really trods on trademarks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 24 16:31:53 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <201104241626.44019.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20110424130302.A90236@shell.lmi.net> <201104241626.44019.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net> > > If it hasn't already been done, it would make sense to post the > > depths of the cuts, so that anybody without one to copy can code-cut > > it. On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Erm, the "XX2247" is the cut-by-numbers code. > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-February/010137.html What that URL says: Ethan said: Not really... the point of the XX2247 is that a full-service locksmith should be able to cross-reference that to a set of key depths, _presuming_ they can code-cut a 7-pin round key (not a universal expectation). My experience with code-cut keys is that a) they cut it, you pay, fit or no fit, and b) it's a few $$$ more than a copy. On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Old Fred, XX2247 isn't the depth cut of the key? :oO "XX2247" is a "CODE NUMBER". Notice that it is SIX digits, two of which are 'X's. (which is NOT normally a cut number). The digits of "XX2247" are presumably COMPLETELY arbitrary, and serve to identify a given code, NOT give you the depths. (There ARE rare exceptions, where the code number and depths are algorithmically related, such as 1975 Honda door keys where the code number is just the list of depths in reverse order. I don't see an obvious algorithm. "XX" COULD be a "don't care, no pins in those slots", but we would still be missing one of the seven? cuts.) X X 2 2 4 7 is presumably the INDEX, not the VALUE (seven ints) stored in KEYS[XX2247] int KEYS[][7]; /* look up that key, get cut numbers */ /* apparently 7 spaces for this model lock */ float DEPTH[10]; /* look up each depth number to get distance */ /* # of different possible depth cuts may be */ /* other than 10, but is a constant */ /* for the particular model of lock */ A well equipped locksmith can look up "XX2247" in a "CODE BOOK", and receive a seven digit number, where each digit IS referring to a specific depth. Then, a quick glance at a "Depths and Spacings" chart will provide the actual depths of each cut number, although most code-cutting machines have databases (often in the form of dial cards) to look that up for you. If somebody MEASURES the cuts, or looks up "XX2247" in a CODE-BOOK and looks up the seven depth numbers in a Depths and Spacings chart, and then POSTS those depths, then the key can be cut manually (drill press recommended, if an appropriate keycutting machine is unavailable). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 24 16:33:01 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 22:33:01 +0100 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB4737A.1080402@neurotica.com> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk><7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB45EE8.8070802@philpem.me.uk> <4DB46AE3.8050008@philpem.me.uk> <155251E1243544AB8664A8BB6E5E1A4F@portajara> <4DB4737A.1080402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB4970D.8000101@philpem.me.uk> On 24/04/11 20:01, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm in the same boat. My fiancee' and her mother (who DOES like > me...I've known her longer than I've known her daughter!) went down to > North Carolina to spend a long Easter weekend with family. There are > supposed to be something like eight babies there... Sounds like the train I was on the other week... A family boards at Huddersfield, just as the train's about to depart, tripping the "person stuck in door" sensor on the doors... which the conductor had to come over and reset before the train set off. Anyway, this wonderful family consisted of: * Two babies screaming their heads off, mother and father ignoring them * Two young kids running up and down the carriage causing utter chaos, similarly ignored * Mother talking on her mobile phone. Well, talking is probably the wrong word. "Swearing like a trooper" is probably more accurate. In the space of twenty minutes, the Screaming Little Anklebiters had: * Stolen food from the tables of several passengers (myself included) * Attempted to steal my MP3 player (unsuccessfully -- thanks partly to the carabiner clip I use to keep it on my belt). * Tried to dig through the contents of my rucksack (again unsuccessfully -- I had tied the pull-tags on the zips together. It takes a lot of fiddling to undo those knots) Worst train journey ever. Oh, aside from this one from last year... I was stood just off to the side of the "First Class ticket-holders only" divider and the conductor argued that since I was within six inches of the divider, I was "in first class" and thus had to spend another ?100 on an upgraded ticket (plus a ?50 "standard fee"). Paid by credit card, disputed it when I got home, won the dispute and got a nice letter of apology from the train company in question. Win. I suspect he had a target for on-train upgrades, and a guy with a day ticket seemed like an easy target for a bit of "Miniscribe Accounting"... My life, such fun. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 24 16:47:26 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 14:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net> <4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20110424144541.Y90236@shell.lmi.net> > On 24/04/11 03:38, Eric Smith wrote: > Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it > wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > What about the Kalok Octagon series? > *shudder* I withdraw any and all implied or explicit criticism of ST-225 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 16:49:35 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:49:35 -0300 Subject: KEYS References: <20110424130302.A90236@shell.lmi.net><201104241626.44019.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> > "XX2247" is a "CODE NUMBER". Notice that it is SIX digits, two of which > are 'X's. (which is NOT normally a cut number). The digits of "XX2247" > are presumably COMPLETELY arbitrary, and serve to identify a given code, > NOT give you the depths. Old Fred, I can always be wrong, but the XX2247 is the depth of cut for the 6 slots of the key. X means no cut and 2247 are the depths for the 4 cuts on the key. Someone with an original key can confirm if there is a sequence of two non-cuts, two equal cuts and two different cuts on the key? Thanks Alexandre From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 24 17:04:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> References: <20110424130302.A90236@shell.lmi.net><201104241626.44019.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net> <4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> Message-ID: <20110424145953.C90236@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Old Fred, I can always be wrong, but the XX2247 is the depth of cut for > the 6 slots of the key. X means no cut and 2247 are the depths for the 4 > cuts on the key. Someone with an original key can confirm if there is a > sequence of two non-cuts, two equal cuts and two different cuts on the key? Somehow, I was stuck on the notion that this was a seven cut key. That sounds very reasonable and correct for a six cut key. Thanks for your patience with me, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 24 17:22:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 15:22:02 -0700 Subject: Hazing (Was: Internships (was Re: Selectric In-Reply-To: <20110424132740.D90236@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20110424132740.D90236@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB4401A.20280.16680FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2011 at 13:31, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 24 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > We also tend to call slip-joint pliers a 'water pump wrench'. I have > > no idea why. > > Here they are often called "Channel-locks" which is a trademark. Not exactly the same thing. There really are "knucklebuster" slip- joint pliers, where the pivot slimply slips in detent within a groove. Channellocks use a tongue-and-groove guide as well, so that the pliers don't have the chance to slip out of their detent...and bust your knuckles. "Slip joint" here in the US most commonly applies to the two-position do-nothing-well pliers found in cheap toolkits--although I've found them to be useful for pulling porcupine quills out of a dog's nose... --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 17:27:09 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 19:27:09 -0300 Subject: KEYS References: <20110424130302.A90236@shell.lmi.net><201104241626.44019.pat@computer-refuge.org><20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net><4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> <20110424145953.C90236@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <62A2063D01DD40139B7069A8C85BB57A@portajara> > Somehow, I was stuck on the notion that this was a seven cut key. > That sounds very reasonable and correct for a six cut key. I Also thought that. But I got a key and saw just 6 slots. Went to wikipedia and now I know there are 6 and 8 slotted keys. So it SEEMS to be reasonable the code is the depth of the cuts. I'm not a locksmith so I cannot confirm this info now. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Apr 24 17:29:54 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:29:54 -0400 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> References: <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net> <4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> Message-ID: <201104241829.54959.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, April 24, 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > "XX2247" is a "CODE NUMBER". Notice that it is SIX digits, two of > > which are 'X's. (which is NOT normally a cut number). The digits > > of "XX2247" are presumably COMPLETELY arbitrary, and serve to > > identify a given code, NOT give you the depths. > > Old Fred, I can always be wrong, but the XX2247 is the depth of > cut for the 6 slots of the key. X means no cut and 2247 are the > depths for the 4 cuts on the key. Someone with an original key can > confirm if there is a sequence of two non-cuts, two equal cuts and > two different cuts on the key? These are definitely not the depths of the cuts. I looked at a key earlier, and there are more cuts, and they don't seem to match up to what XX2247 would suggest. -- Patrick Finnegan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 17:44:35 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:44:35 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB47AD3.5090701@neurotica.com> References: <4DB47AD3.5090701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: has a scope. be damned if i could fugure out how to use it have about 600 tubes......... http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5337051423_324e12d178_b.jpg From jws at jwsss.com Sun Apr 24 18:47:09 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:47:09 -0700 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB4970D.8000101@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DB38ADB.7050308@brutman.com> <20110423193316.G54834@shell.lmi.net><4DB38D1B.2060507@brouhaha.com> <4DB406E0.9010906@philpem.me.uk><7C2A6F7D675B4450B55290073A365A4C@portajara> <4DB45EE8.8070802@philpem.me.uk> <4DB46AE3.8050008@philpem.me.uk> <155251E1243544AB8664A8BB6E5E1A4F@portajara> <4DB4737A.1080402@neurotica.com> <4DB4970D.8000101@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DB4B67D.8040408@jwsss.com> I would guess you are talking about the shipping bricks in the boxes fiasco. We had dealt with the people in questions who seemed to be very nice and reasonable people, amazing how nice crooks can be. We ended up not doing any business with them, which is probably for the good, since they were busted for the bricks in a box thing in the middle of what would have been our business cycle with them. An old company I worked for in the 70's had a Puerto Rican subsidiary which made terminals, core memory, and the like for them and shipped the goods to the US. I went to a scrapper in Covina, Ca who had bought a huge pile of terminals from them when they canceled the product, and went with an outside vendor. probably 500 terminals. He had paid pretty cheap for the pile, and was figuring on selling them for probably $50 or so each a really good deal. I looked at the ones he had opened before buying the pile, and they looked nice, but when I went to get a factory fresh one, luckily I opened that box, and noticed that the back looked funny. Turned out that they had shipped as fully functional terminals, the case, CRT, keyboard and a cardboard picture of what should have been the electronics on the back with a DB25 nicely bolted in the right place. Nothing else in the case. Needless to say, something had gotten completely away with the swindle, which was on the home company because noone at the place had discovered the problem. I made some calls which probably caused some grief, but the scrapper ended up stuck because the deals you make in that business is Buyer Beware, and whereis as is with a threshold warranty. Jim On 4/24/2011 2:33 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > target for a bit of "Miniscribe Accounting"... From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 24 19:48:51 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:48:51 -0700 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <4DB47AD3.5090701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 5:44 PM -0500 4/24/11, Adrian Stoness wrote: >have about 600 tubes......... >http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5337051423_324e12d178_b.jpg Now that's far more interesting that some crusty old computer! The best audio is still tube based. Preferably fed by a nice turntable. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 20:34:12 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 21:34:12 -0400 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: <4DB09721.8030200@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> <4DB083B4.3040001@brouhaha.com> <4DB09721.8030200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: OK, mystery solved with a simple unbuttoning of the skins - it is a Calcomp 114D. For some reason, there was a bunch of General Automation cards and docs inside, as well as a pack. Bonus. And the mystery card reader turns out to be a CDC CE304. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 20:38:44 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 21:38:44 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <4DB47AD3.5090701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > have about 600 tubes......... > http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5337051423_324e12d178_b.jpg Any interesting computer tubes? -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 24 20:48:34 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 18:48:34 -0700 Subject: CMS disk drive? In-Reply-To: References: <4DB06B8F.70309@bitsavers.org> <4DB083B4.3040001@brouhaha.com> <4DB09721.8030200@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB4D2F2.30504@bitsavers.org> On 4/24/11 6:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > OK, mystery solved with a simple unbuttoning of the skins - it is a > Calcomp 114D. For some reason, there was a bunch of General Automation > cards and docs inside, as well as a pack. Bonus. > GA OEMed Calcomp drives. That's where the manual on bitsavers came from. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 20:53:08 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 20:53:08 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <4DB47AD3.5090701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: let me dig the list out On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 8:38 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > have about 600 tubes......... > > http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5337051423_324e12d178_b.jpg > > Any interesting computer tubes? > > -- > Will > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 21:08:22 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 22:08:22 -0400 Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: <201104241149.51535.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <46882.15936.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201104241149.51535.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > That looks about like the model I had, which I handed off to another > ccmper. It's missing the HMC, but I think I have a copy of the software > necessary for one.. though I'm not 100% sure where it is. ?I think that > a PC Server 300 is what the software expects to be installed on. Well, that was me, and I have a couple of these 9221s, and could use that software. > I'd go for it, but it's too far away, and I don't have the money to > spend on that after buying my z890. :( Always interested, but as I said, I have 9221s already, and I glommed onto about 2 tons of interesting computer stuff over that past week or so. -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Apr 24 21:15:24 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 22:15:24 -0400 Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <46882.15936.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201104241149.51535.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201104242215.24296.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, April 24, 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > > That looks about like the model I had, which I handed off to > > another ccmper. It's missing the HMC, but I think I have a copy of > > the software necessary for one.. though I'm not 100% sure where it > > is. I think that a PC Server 300 is what the software expects to > > be installed on. > > Well, that was me, and I have a couple of these 9221s, and could use > that software. Yeah, I know. Don't worry, I'll get you a copy once I find it, Will. :) > > I'd go for it, but it's too far away, and I don't have the money to > > spend on that after buying my z890. :( > > Always interested, but as I said, I have 9221s already, and I glommed > onto about 2 tons of interesting computer stuff over that past week > or so. Fun. I'm trying to figure out how to arrange things in my house, so that I can actually run the z890 with some peripherals on it. -- Patrick Finnegan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 21:56:59 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 22:56:59 -0400 Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: <201104242215.24296.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <46882.15936.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <201104241149.51535.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201104242215.24296.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > Fun. One thing came with a dead rat inside. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Sun Apr 24 22:01:24 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 23:01:24 -0400 Subject: Good-condition IMSAI for sale Message-ID: <4DB4E404.1040808@snarc.net> We in MARCH are selling the following IMSAI 8080: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270739896050 Proceeds for this system are NOT going to our club, but rather to the widow of a local computer reseller who died in an industrial accident recently. Our club was asked to fix up the computer and sell it on her behalf. - Evan Koblentz and Bill Degnan From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Apr 24 22:27:44 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 20:27:44 -0700 Subject: Wanted: WD1002-HDD docs or Teac SD-520U help In-Reply-To: <4DB402A6.15278.76761C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 4/24/11 10:59 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 24 Apr 2011 at 11:43, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> On 24/04/11 03:38, Eric Smith wrote: >>>> Well, as compared to some brands, yes. JTS comes to mind, though it >>>> wasn't contemporary with the ST-225. >>> What about the Kalok Octagon series? >>> *shudder* >> >> Was it WORSE than JTS? Never seen one of these in Brazil... > > > While prowling around the junk stores once, I ran into a pile of 4MB > Tandon hard drives sitting in a corner of the warehouse. I asked > about them, and the guy behind the counter said that I could pick one > out for $5. His boss then showed up and said I could have one for $5 > as long as I took at least 9 more for free. He was desperate to get > rid of the things. I did end up going home with 10 drives, but > scrapped the entire lot--most worked, but not reliably. > > --Chuck The Tandon 8MB drives were no better :( From vrs at msn.com Sun Apr 24 22:37:30 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 20:37:30 -0700 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <201104241829.54959.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net><4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> <201104241829.54959.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: From: Patrick Finnegan: Sunday, April 24, 2011 3:29 PM > These are definitely not the depths of the cuts. I looked at a key > earlier, and there are more cuts, and they don't seem to match up to > what XX2247 would suggest. Patrick is correct -- there appear to be 7 cut positions, one of which is actually uncut. Looking down the barrel of the key with the tab in the 12:00 position, and reading clockwise, I measure approximately 0.8", 0.0", 0.11", 0.44", 0.11", 0.8", and 0.11". Actually, rechecking this with the 10x magnifier and reticle (more accurate) gives right at 1mm, 2mm, and 2.6mm for the 3 depths of cut. (That's 39, 79, and 102 mils). Vince From brain at jbrain.com Sun Apr 24 22:46:37 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 22:46:37 -0500 Subject: Can someone identify this IC "header"? Message-ID: <4DB4EE9D.6000904@jbrain.com> http://postimage.org/image/5eptoxvo/ It appears to be header pins attached to some thin plastic "carrier". I would like to source more of them. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 25 04:52:41 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 10:52:41 +0100 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <62A2063D01DD40139B7069A8C85BB57A@portajara> References: <20110424130302.A90236@shell.lmi.net><201104241626.44019.pat@computer-refuge.org><20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net><4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> <20110424145953.C90236@shell.lmi.net> <62A2063D01DD40139B7069A8C85BB57A@portajara> Message-ID: <4DB54469.7040301@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/04/2011 23:27, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Somehow, I was stuck on the notion that this was a seven cut key. >> That sounds very reasonable and correct for a six cut key. > > I Also thought that. But I got a key and saw just 6 slots. Went to > wikipedia and now I know there are 6 and 8 slotted keys. So it SEEMS to > be reasonable the code is the depth of the cuts. I'm not a locksmith so > I cannot confirm this info now. Definitely not. DEC keys have seven cut positions, and on an XX2247, of which I have several originals in front og me right now, none of the positions are zero-depth cuts (one is very small, though). Similarly on a few other XX.... keys I have, there are 7 cut positions, and although on all of them one position is very small, it's not a zero cut, and it's in a different place on every different-numbered key. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 25 05:17:54 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:17:54 +0100 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: from "Adrian Stoness" at Apr 23, 11 02:28:01 pm Message-ID: <053801cc0332$0dc145c0$2943d140$@ntlworld.com> > 4) Assemble the PSU section only, and if necessary connect it to dummy load > resistors. Power up and check the output voltages. Don't go any further until > they're cortrect This is the bit I always wonder about. I have recently acquired a PDP-11/24 and I want to try to power it up the "right" way. Is it sufficient to load just one of the output pins from the PSU to avoid damaging the PSU, or do you need to load one of each of the different voltages? In my case the PSU is a H7140 which has two backplane connectors with +5V, +15V, +12/15 B (not sure what that means), -15V and -12/15 B. What kind of resistors would you use? I have a 10K resistor I bought for the purpose of discharging capacitors (following an earlier discussion on this list), would that do? Would an admittedly riskier alternative be to connect just the fans, would they provide enough load? Regards Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 25 07:44:52 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:44:52 +0100 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: References: <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net><4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> <201104241829.54959.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4DB56CC4.7000705@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/04/2011 04:37, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Patrick is correct -- there appear to be 7 cut positions, one of which > is actually uncut. > > Looking down the barrel of the key with the tab in the 12:00 position, > and reading clockwise, I measure approximately 0.8", 0.0", 0.11", 0.44", > 0.11", 0.8", and 0.11". You've apparently misplaced the decimal point :-) A 0.8" cut, which is over 3/4", would be longer than the key's tube... > Actually, rechecking this with the 10x magnifier and reticle (more > accurate) gives right at 1mm, 2mm, and 2.6mm for the 3 depths > of cut. (That's 39, 79, and 102 mils). Here's what I got from two original XX2247 keys: tube OD 0.377" (9.58mm), tube ID 0.310" (7.87mm). The cuts are arranged in 7 out of 8 evenly-spaced positions around the outer circumference of the tube[1]; the eighth position is occupied by a rectangular-section key approx 1.5mm wide, and 1mm deep inside the tube, about 1.3mm high on the outside. The outside part of this key is short, extending from approx 0.8mm from the end of the tube to about 3.6mm back, while the inside part extends almost the full length, from about 0.8mm inside. [1] I've got other tubular keys where the cuts are on the inside of the tube. The cut depths, clockwise from the first position, looking into the open end with the key at the "twelve 0'clock" position are: Key 1 Key 1 Key 2 Key 2 0.0770" 1.94mm 0.0785" 1.95mm 0.0150" 0.37mm 0.0155" 0.39mm 0.1055" 2.68mm 0.1070" 2.72mm 0.0435" 1.13mm 0.0455" 1.13mm 0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1085" 2.74mm 0.0780" 1.96mm 0.0785" 1.98mm 0.1075" 2.72mm 0.1095" 2.77mm These are actual measurements from a depth micrometer. As you can see if you do the conversions, it's not easy to get consistent results; the ends of the keys aren't perfectly flat. Key 1 has "Chicago Lock Co", "ACE" and "DO NOT DUPLICATE" stamped on it (the last in quite small letters). Key 2 looks older but has the same legend, slightly differently arranged. For comparison, here are the depths from a different key, Chicago Lock Co ACE XX4306: 0.1070" 2.72mm 0.0775" 1.97mm 0.0600" 1.53mm 0.0615" 1.56mm 0.0180" 0.45mm 0.0780" 1.97mm 0.0780" 1.97mm I'm not quite sure what this says about cutting tolerances or what multiple the depths of cut are. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vrs at msn.com Mon Apr 25 09:21:27 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 07:21:27 -0700 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <4DB56CC4.7000705@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net><4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> <201104241829.54959.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4DB56CC4.7000705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: From: Pete Turnbull: Monday, April 25, 2011 5:44 AM >> Looking down the barrel of the key with the tab in the 12:00 position, >> and reading clockwise, I measure approximately 0.8", 0.0", 0.11", 0.44", >> 0.11", 0.8", and 0.11". > > You've apparently misplaced the decimal point :-) A 0.8" cut, which is > over 3/4", would be longer than the key's tube... Yep. Though the later characterizations in mm and mils are correct. >> Actually, rechecking this with the 10x magnifier and reticle (more >> accurate) gives right at 1mm, 2mm, and 2.6mm for the 3 depths >> of cut. (That's 39, 79, and 102 mils). Rechecking the cut that I thought was zero depth with the magnifier, I do see a 10 mil nick there, so you are correct -- there are no zero depth cuts. (That 10 mil cut is nearly invisible in the corrosion of the key I was measuring. which still works :-).) > Here's what I got from two original XX2247 keys: > > tube OD 0.377" (9.58mm), tube ID 0.310" (7.87mm). Cool. I hadn't thought to measure those. > These are actual measurements from a depth micrometer. As you can see if > you do the conversions, it's not easy to get consistent results; the ends > of the keys aren't perfectly flat. I like the magnifier and reticle for that, as it makes it possible to sort of "visually smooth" the vagaries of the actual surfaces. > I'm not quite sure what this says about cutting tolerances or what > multiple the depths of cut are. I wondered about the tolerances, too. Seems like they can't be super tight, or the keys would be more difficult to use than they are. Would be nice if someone could look up somewhere what the spec's were/are. Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 09:22:32 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 10:22:32 -0400 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <4DB56CC4.7000705@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net> <4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> <201104241829.54959.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4DB56CC4.7000705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 25/04/2011 04:37, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Here's what I got from two original XX2247 keys... > > The cut depths, clockwise from the first position, looking into the open > end with the key at the "twelve 0'clock" position are: > > Key 1 ? ? ? ? ? Key 1 ? ? ? ? ? Key 2 ? ? ? ? ? Key 2 > > 0.0770" ? ? ? ? 1.94mm ? ? ? ? ?0.0785" ? ? ? ? 1.95mm > 0.0150" ? ? ? ? 0.37mm ? ? ? ? ?0.0155" ? ? ? ? 0.39mm > 0.1055" ? ? ? ? 2.68mm ? ? ? ? ?0.1070" ? ? ? ? 2.72mm > 0.0435" ? ? ? ? 1.13mm ? ? ? ? ?0.0455" ? ? ? ? 1.13mm > 0.1075" ? ? ? ? 2.72mm ? ? ? ? ?0.1085" ? ? ? ? 2.74mm > 0.0780" ? ? ? ? 1.96mm ? ? ? ? ?0.0785" ? ? ? ? 1.98mm > 0.1075" ? ? ? ? 2.72mm ? ? ? ? ?0.1095" ? ? ? ? 2.77mm . . . > I'm not quite sure what this says about cutting tolerances or what multiple > the depths of cut are. Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but according to... http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth The depths by number are: 1 - 0.0155" 2 - 0.0310" 3 - 0.0465" 4 - 0.0620" 5 - 0.0775" 6 - 0.093" 7 - 0.1085" 8 - 0.1240" Meaning that the XX2247 key would have depths (in the order you describe) of 5-1-7-3-7-5-7 A locksmith set up for ACE cutting would have the code book to convert the serial number into the depth sequence, so the number on the key is the important datum. Knowing the numeric depths is handy when you are pinning a lock so you know which bin to pull pins from. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Apr 25 10:05:01 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 16:05:01 +0100 Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: References: <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net> <4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> <201104241829.54959.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4DB56CC4.7000705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DB58D9D.20408@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/04/2011 15:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On 25/04/2011 04:37, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> Here's what I got from two original XX2247 keys... > Not sure about tolerances (my brother is a locksmith but I'm not), but > according to... > > http://www.locksafesystems.com/depth_and_space.htm#Chicago_Tubular_Space_and_Depth > > The depths by number are: Thanks for that one, Ethan; it's very useful -- I've bookmarked that! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Apr 25 12:11:31 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:11:31 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia Message-ID: Cut and pasted from Wikipedia, not that it has any Deep history of the subject, but to start the conversation: * Data scrubbing?is an error correction technique which * uses a background task that periodically inspects memory * for errors, and then corrects the error using?ECC memory * or another copy of the data. It reduces the likelihood that * single correctable errors will accumulate; thus, reducing * the risk of uncorrectable errors. Some on-topic hardware relation: I first found out about data scrubbing back when it was a way to deal with flaky DRAM (what Wikipedia calls "Memory Scrubbing".) Mid-70's stuff. Later found out that the Xerox Alto had done it in that era too. Not sure where it first originated, I would be surprised if this hadn't been done back to the first storage media. In the context of large data/disk archives it is reassuring to have this done not just at the media layer, but above the transport (e.g. SATA or SCSI or USB bus) layer. e.g. I store my files as bzip2 format, and every so often not just make sure the drive thinks it can read the sectors, but that also it passes a bunzip2 -v checksum validation. This habit probably dates from flaky SCSI bus/network protocols in the past that had this odd way of dropping or mangling random bytes or sectors without any error indication. When I'm truly paranoid not only do I count on bzip2 checksums but also resort to storing MD5's or SHA-1's of the uncompressed contents. Every so often I get ultra-paranoid and worry that the file System is not mangling files but simply losing them. It's been A long time since I've witnessed this, but storing the MD5's/SHA1's In a text listing gives me some reassurance. Of course the Filesystem might not just lose the file but also hide that it lost The file by removing the file from the listing so I also print out The listing and attach it to the drive/tape/CD etc... this is getting To 2001/HAL eras of paranoia to talk about this using a Computer (never mind locking ourselves into a space pod to discuss Verbally and then finding out the computer can read lips!) It is very reassuring to me to do these validations not Just automatically but manually too. And I even purposefully Mangle some backup files to make sure my tools would kick Out a failure. Probably just paranoia on my part. Wondering if others might even be more extreme :-). Tim. From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Apr 25 12:17:52 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:17:52 -0400 Subject: This is a Xerox Star, right? Message-ID: <64bbca8c$2b45a6b$34c23e61$@com> I am looking for confirmation that this is a Xerox 8010 / Xerox Star: http://vintagecomputer.net/xerox/8010/ It's missing the front cover and one of the side panels. I don't have the monitor or mouse, just what's pictured. Anyone have one of these? Thanks Bill Degnan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 25 12:29:35 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:29:35 -0600 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/25/2011 11:11 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Probably just paranoia on my part. Wondering if others > might even be more extreme :-). Yes, DAVE: There are no errors in the file system. Care for a game of Chess? > Tim. I really wonder how many glitches modern dram has? Can one get static memory for the modern machines? Ben. From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Apr 25 12:38:22 2011 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:38:22 -0400 Subject: This is a Xerox Star, right? In-Reply-To: <64bbca8c$2b45a6b$34c23e61$@com> References: <64bbca8c$2b45a6b$34c23e61$@com> Message-ID: <20110425173713.M65520@kw.igs.net> On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:17:52 -0400, B. Degnan wrote > I am looking for confirmation that this is a Xerox 8010 / Xerox Star: Yes, it's an 8010 (or 1108). -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From schoedel at kw.igs.net Mon Apr 25 12:46:28 2011 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:46:28 -0400 Subject: This is a Xerox Star, right? In-Reply-To: <64bbca8c$2b45a6b$34c23e61$@com> References: <64bbca8c$2b45a6b$34c23e61$@com> Message-ID: <20110425174512.M60918@kw.igs.net> On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:17:52 -0400, B. Degnan wrote > I am looking for confirmation that this is a Xerox 8010 / Xerox Star: > > http://vintagecomputer.net/xerox/8010/ Ah, given those floppies and lack of display, yours may have been a print server; see e.g. http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/5/index.html -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 25 13:04:12 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:04:12 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB5B79C.1000605@bitsavers.org> On 4/25/11 10:11 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Probably just paranoia on my part. Wondering if others > might even be more extreme :-). > Do a search for the use of content addressable storage in archives. Archiving on rotating rust has become a multi-billion dollar industry in the 21st century. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 25 13:23:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 14:23:47 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4DB5BC33.3020909@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 1:29 PM, ben wrote: > I really wonder how many glitches modern dram has? Quite a few. This is one of the big reasons why I NEVER use "consumer grade" equipment that lacks ECC. See: http://www.google.com/research/pubs/pub35162.html > Can one get static memory for the modern machines? Not in the kind of densities that would be required. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 25 13:29:08 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 14:29:08 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 1:11 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Some on-topic hardware relation: > I first found out about data scrubbing back when it > was a way to deal with flaky DRAM (what Wikipedia calls > "Memory Scrubbing".) Mid-70's stuff. Later found out > that the Xerox Alto had done it in that era too. Not > sure where it first originated, I would be surprised > if this hadn't been done back to the first storage media. > > In the context of large data/disk archives it is reassuring > to have this done not just at the media layer, but above > the transport (e.g. SATA or SCSI or USB bus) layer. > e.g. I store my files as bzip2 format, and every so > often not just make sure the drive thinks it can read > the sectors, but that also it passes a bunzip2 -v checksum > validation. This habit probably dates from flaky SCSI > bus/network protocols in the past that had this odd > way of dropping or mangling random bytes or sectors > without any error indication. > > When I'm truly paranoid not only do I count on bzip2 checksums > but also resort to storing MD5's or SHA-1's of the > uncompressed contents. > > Every so often I get ultra-paranoid and worry that the file > System is not mangling files but simply losing them. It's been > A long time since I've witnessed this, but storing the MD5's/SHA1's > In a text listing gives me some reassurance. Of course the > Filesystem might not just lose the file but also hide that it lost > The file by removing the file from the listing so I also print out > The listing and attach it to the drive/tape/CD etc... this is getting > To 2001/HAL eras of paranoia to talk about this using a > Computer (never mind locking ourselves into a space pod to discuss > Verbally and then finding out the computer can read lips!) > > It is very reassuring to me to do these validations not > Just automatically but manually too. And I even purposefully > Mangle some backup files to make sure my tools would kick > Out a failure. > > Probably just paranoia on my part. Wondering if others > might even be more extreme :-). I'm extremely paranoid about it. This is why I store everything in a ZFS filesystem. It has end-to-end checksums on every disk block that are verified on every access, on-demand full-volume scrubbing, etc. It's the most bulletproof filesystem I've ever seen. And that's just the integrity features...the management features have changed the way I manage storage so dramatically that every time I'm on a system with traditional filesystems, I feel like I've been thrown back into the dark ages. Read up on it, if you haven't already. I moved everything to ZFS several years ago after looking at the design. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 25 13:39:34 2011 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Avail IBM Series 1 In-Reply-To: <201104161826.p3GIQMLt032044@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <340538.33345.qm@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Did you get any interest in your Series/1? I have two racks of Series/1 stuff, but no boot device. The main problem is I'm in California so I'm not sure if shipping could even be done. Bob www.dvq.com --- On Sat, 4/16/11, B Degnan wrote: > From: B Degnan > Subject: Avail IBM Series 1 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Saturday, April 16, 2011, 11:26 AM > I am accepting reasonable offers for > the following entire IBM Series 1 system: > http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/Series1/ > If no one is interested I will donate it to MARCH's museum > instead.? Contact me directly by email > > When cabled together this system would I believe function > as a document storage system and communications for a > medical facility.? Anyone who knows a thing or two > about the Series 1 is welcome to have access, it's set up > and power is available until at least July.? After that > I have to move it. > > I wish I had more time for it myself.? So far I have > un-parked the 4962 hard drive, wired the component cables, > and tried to access the control panel.? I have a > limited knowledge of IBM minicomputers, just enough to know > that these kinds of minicomputers don't just power up and > say READY when you attach a? monitor to > them.???In short the operational condition is > unknown.???The individual components power > up. > > Anyway, here is a list of the components. > > qty) Description > > 2) 6' IBM 4997 Rack Units with shelves to house the > processor and peripherals. > 1) IBM 4956 Processor > 1) Cambex Corp Model 80810 2-tape drive storage device (no > tapes) > 1) IBM 4962 8" disk drive / Hard Drive? (w/ 3 boxes of > maint. software) > 1) IBM 4967 Hard drive (69kg) > 1) IBM 4963 Hard drive (55kg) > 1) IBM 4963A Hard drive (55kg) > 1) IBM 4978 display station and keyboard (display is bad?) > 12) Series I system software/hardware manuals "standard > 3-ring binder sized" > 20) Series I system software/hardware manuals (tall, blue, > with IBM written on them) > There is documentation for all components, plus service > logs, software documentation, installation instructions, > etc. Pretty complete. > > Misc. papers and other documentation and receipts. > > 3 boxes of IBM software on 8" disks, including diagnostics > for hardware. > 1 box of cables and jacks for additional display > stations/terminals > 1 box of printer ribbons (no printer) > > probably some product literature and period IBM sales > circulars, etc. > > I believe I also have the modem for this system. > > The items are in Wilmington, Delaware minutes from rt 95, > about an hour north of Baltimore, 25 minutes south of Phila > Airport.? Please contact me directly, reasonable offers > accepted.? I will avoid selling individual > components.? Pick up preferred, items are near loading > area. > > Bill > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 25 13:47:48 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:47:48 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> On 4/25/11 11:29 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I moved everything to ZFS several years ago after looking at the design. > Unfortunately, Oracle controls it now, and there aren't a whole lot of good inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Apr 25 13:54:15 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 11:54:15 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 11:48 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia > > On 4/25/11 11:29 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I moved everything to ZFS several years ago after looking at the > design. > > > > Unfortunately, Oracle controls it now, and there aren't a whole lot of > good > inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. > > It looks like there are several ports to non-Solaris platforms, at various stages of maturity. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 25 13:54:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 14:54:26 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB5C362.7030303@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 2:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I moved everything to ZFS several years ago after looking at the design. > > Unfortunately, Oracle controls it now, True. And while I agree that it's unfortunate, the source code has been released, and Oracle's acquisition of Sun hasn't had any effect on how my systems run. ;) > and there aren't a whole lot of good > inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. I don't store my data on cheap hardware...and I'm willing to bet you don't either. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jonas at otter.se Sat Apr 23 02:36:56 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 09:36:56 +0200 Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive Message-ID: >> Any alignment must be totally lost by now. But if I do get it >> working I >> can format a disk on it and see if that works. Reading and writing >> files >> might be more of a problem, I can't remember if there is any way to >> create directories and files in the bare OS, or if one needs >> programs >> from another disk, in which case I would be out of luck if it is so >> badly misaligned that it can't read other disks. > > Could you connect it up as a second drive? I seem to rememebr there's > a > socket for that on the ST (a strange 14 pin DIN socket?). Or test it > on > some other machine that uses a standard-ish floppy drive? I could connect it as a second drive in a PC. I think it is actually a bog-standard drive. Connecting a new drive to the ST was dead easy, however most of the old diskettes that came with the machine seem to be bad. Now I shall have to try to get the old drive working again. I thought the head assembly on the old drive might have had bushes for the guide rod. Not so, they were just holes punched through the sheet metal... /Jonas From tingox at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 04:02:34 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:02:34 +0200 Subject: Serial Port Web Server In-Reply-To: References: <8C1E7303-4808-43D3-BA36-620ACC567D92@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 3:24 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Now that we have more details I'd say that the best solution is either this, > or else a dedicated low-end x86 PC running OpenBSD. ?In either case the > 'fun' part could very well be wiring the two together. ?Honestly I'd > recommend a PC with OpenBSD over a Serial Port ethernet server. Yeah, and running conserver: http://www.conserver.com/ or something like it. Depending on how many serial ports you have, you can have a real multi-user setup with this. HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From websurfer80234 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 10:54:17 2011 From: websurfer80234 at gmail.com (Don Owen) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 09:54:17 -0600 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: I know this is from an old post but I am looking for a 130 in one manual 28-259 and was wondering if you ever got this one? If you did can you e-mail me a copy? Thank You Don From naumanshah at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 02:04:15 2011 From: naumanshah at gmail.com (Nauman Shah) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 12:04:15 +0500 Subject: Omron Programmable Controller Message-ID: Dear Mr. Allain I read your post on the cctech mailing list at http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-June/016522.html I was wondering if you still have the Omron Scy-P5r PLC with you? If yes, I would like to purchase it from you. -- Regards Syed Nauman Shah From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 25 14:16:36 2011 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 12:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Avail IBM Series 1 In-Reply-To: <340538.33345.qm@web80507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <778774.73392.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/25/11, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > From: Bob Rosenbloom > Subject: Re: Avail IBM Series 1 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, April 25, 2011, 11:39 AM > Did you get any interest in your > Series/1? I have two racks of Series/1 stuff, but no boot > device. The main problem is I'm in California so I'm not > sure if shipping could even be done. > > Bob > > www.dvq.com Whoops, that should have been Private, bad use of the reply button! Bob From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 25 14:15:50 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 12:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5C362.7030303@neurotica.com> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB5C362.7030303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/25/11 2:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> I moved everything to ZFS several years ago after looking at the design. >> >> Unfortunately, Oracle controls it now, > > True. And while I agree that it's unfortunate, the source code has been > released, and Oracle's acquisition of Sun hasn't had any effect on how my > systems run. ;) > >> and there aren't a whole lot of good >> inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. > > I don't store my data on cheap hardware...and I'm willing to bet you don't > either. > I do, but I store it on a LOT of cheap hardware. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 25 14:18:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 15:18:35 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB5C90B.6070700@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 2:54 PM, Ian King wrote: >> Unfortunately, Oracle controls it now, and there aren't a whole lot of >> good >> inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. > > It looks like there are several ports to non-Solaris platforms, at various stages of maturity. -- Ian Yes there are. I only run it under Solaris, but apparently it's available on a few different platforms. I wouldn't trust it on anything else for another year or two, myself. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 25 14:25:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 15:25:49 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB5C362.7030303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB5CABD.5070909@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 3:15 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >>>> I moved everything to ZFS several years ago after looking at the >>>> design. >>> >>> Unfortunately, Oracle controls it now, >> >> True. And while I agree that it's unfortunate, the source code has >> been released, and Oracle's acquisition of Sun hasn't had any effect >> on how my systems run. ;) >> >>> and there aren't a whole lot of good >>> inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. >> >> I don't store my data on cheap hardware...and I'm willing to bet you >> don't either. > > I do, but I store it on a LOT of cheap hardware. :) Well that's another way to do it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 14:32:43 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 14:32:43 -0500 Subject: Omron Programmable Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is funny. On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 2:04 AM, Nauman Shah wrote: > Dear Mr. Allain > > > > I read your post on the cctech mailing list at > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-June/016522.html > > > > I was wondering if you still have the Omron Scy-P5r PLC with you? If yes, I > would like to purchase it from you. > > > > > -- > Regards > > Syed Nauman Shah > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 14:43:44 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 20:43:44 +0100 Subject: Omron Programmable Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Not yet classic as the date of the list mailing was 2003! another couple of years to wait ps damn, this old Omron SYSMAC CQM1 I have here kicking around the floor is the wrong model to get an eager sale I await a mention in 2018 Dave Caroline From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 12:49:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 18:49:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replacing capacitors (was RE: new here) In-Reply-To: <4DB41CCB.9309.DC96F2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 24, 11 12:51:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 24 Apr 2011 at 12:04, Ian King wrote: > > > Industry studies (work by Cornell Dublier) show that aluminum > > electrolytic capacitors have a limited life span. (The most common > > failure mode is not drying out, it is elevated ESR.) Then there have > > been the various scandals about substandard components. > > I'd also add, at least in the case of consumer devices, crappy > designs leading to operation at elevated temperatures. I can show Err yes :-(. Fortunately many older classic computers don't have stupid design featuers like that. > you units where electrolytics are hot-glued to heat sinks. Inverters > and power supplies for LCD monitors are some of the worst examples. > And then there's the sealed DC "wall wart" power supply. I think you all know my views on wall weats. I hate them. I prefer to make my own PSU in a properly earthed metal case with fuses on mains and output side. And with the electrolytics put in a sensible place. Some wall-wrts over here are screwed together, often with non-standard screws. I have a PSU for one of my machines that was assembled iwth System Zero screws down deep holes, and is thus impossible to dismantle non-destructively without the right tool (which you don't find in every tool shop...). Onee I'd got it open, I found the only problem was a blown fuse, a normal 20mm cartdirge fuse in clips on the PCB with the silk-screen indicating the type/rating to use. Very easy fix once I'd got the screws out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 13:07:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 19:07:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 24, 11 02:31:53 pm Message-ID: > (There ARE rare exceptions, where the code number and depths are > algorithmically related, such as 1975 Honda door keys where the code > number is just the list of depths in reverse order. I don't see an > obvious algorithm. "XX" COULD be a "don't care, no pins in those slots", > but we would still be missing one of the seven? cuts.) I am pretty sure the old DEC frontpanel keyswitch has al l7 pins present. I can't remmebr if I've ever taken one apart (I've certainly done similar locks), but I possibly have, and I would have noticed 'misisng pins' 6 pins (spaced at 1/7th of a circle with a gap where the locator is) would be very unsual simply dcause these switches have their stable positions (off/on/paanel lock) at posuitons where the pins line up. That is, if the lock has 7 pins (spaced at 1/8th of a circle), the switch positions would be at 45 degree spacing, which is sensible. 5.142 degrees is not. [...] > POSTS those depths, then the key can be cut manually (drill press > recommended, if an appropriate keycutting machine is unavailable). And to think I was going to hold the blank in a dividing head and guc the slots with an end mill.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 13:37:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 19:37:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: from "Vincent Slyngstad" at Apr 24, 11 08:37:30 pm Message-ID: > Patrick is correct -- there appear to be 7 cut positions, one of which > is actually uncut. It's a very shallow cut on the key I've just looked at. But it is there. > > Looking down the barrel of the key with the tab in the 12:00 position, > and reading clockwise, I measure approximately 0.8", 0.0", 0.11", 0.44", > 0.11", 0.8", and 0.11". I would re-check that 0.44" one. For one thing no cut is anything like 0.4" deep. And for anther that cut is shallower than the 2 on either side of it, whcih you say are 0.11" -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 25 14:48:29 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 12:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: References: <20110424135026.Y90236@shell.lmi.net> <4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> <201104241829.54959.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4DB56CC4.7000705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20110425123634.H26189@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > 1 - 0.0155" > 2 - 0.0310" > 3 - 0.0465" > 4 - 0.0620" > 5 - 0.0775" > 6 - 0.093" > 7 - 0.1085" > 8 - 0.1240" > Meaning that the XX2247 key would have depths (in the order you > describe) of 5-1-7-3-7-5-7 > A locksmith set up for ACE cutting would have the code book to convert > the serial number into the depth sequence, so the number on the key is > the important datum. Knowing the numeric depths is handy when you are > pinning a lock so you know which bin to pull pins from. Thanks to all who helped. We have now confirmed that XX2247 is a code number, not the depths, for looking up in a code book. Ethan's decode eliminates the need for a code book. (5-1-7-3-7-5=7 is what the locksmith would find in the codebook.) (You can now put that number in your phone number list :-) Ethan's and Pete's depth chart and measurements eliminate the need for a depth chart for cutting with a drill press. The spacing can be figured out from any other 7 cut key, and is presumably preset on a tubular key cutter. Now, where the hell is that Hert-Gerty? Pete's other measurements are almost enough to MAKE a blank. The XX2247 is now fully documented. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 13:23:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 19:23:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: KEYS In-Reply-To: <4077DB2254964E7DBE2021916C86FBB9@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 24, 11 06:49:35 pm Message-ID: > Old Fred, I can always be wrong, but the XX2247 is the depth of cut for > the 6 slots of the key. X means no cut and 2247 are the depths for the 4 > cuts on the key. Someone with an original key can confirm if there is a > sequence of two non-cuts, two equal cuts and two different cuts on the key? The only problem with this theory is that there are 7 cuts in the key (and 7 pins in the lock) -- I've just looked at the XX2247 key that I use in my 8/e. So it must be a 'code' -- an index number to the codebook which givethe 7 depths. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 13:31:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 19:31:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Apr 24, 11 05:44:35 pm Message-ID: > > has a scope. be damned if i could fugure out how to use it Many of us here wilbe happy to explain how to use your 'scope. I asusmne you know the basics -- a 'scope displays a graph of the input voltage against time. You can think of it like this (and it's fairly accurate for older, non-digital 'scopes). The spot of light on the screen is produced by an electron beam hitting said screen. The beam is deflected vertically by the input signal, there wille ne a gain contrl calibrated in 'volts/cm'. If you have a vertyical defleciton of 2.5cm and a setting of 2V/cm, then tha's a total fo 5V. The beam is moved horizotally by a ramp voltage from the 'tiomebase' circuit'. This has a control calibtated in time/cm (so perhaps 20us/cm). So if you see that 2 points of interest on the waveform are 3.4cm apart and the timebase is running at 2ms/cm, then that's 6.8ms between them. There's a lot more to it, of course. Some 'scopes have all sorts of interesting extra facilites whcih are very useful but which may confuse you when starting out. Post the make/model of the 'scope and it's likely somebody hnows it :-). I don't know what your electronic background is like, but I am still going to suggest you look at a book called 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill. It's not cheap, but it's very well explained and it covers most (but not all) areas of electronics. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 13:33:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 19:33:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 24, 11 05:48:51 pm Message-ID: > > At 5:44 PM -0500 4/24/11, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >have about 600 tubes......... > >http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5206/5337051423_324e12d178_b.jpg > > Now that's far more interesting that some crusty old computer! The > best audio is still tube based. Preferably fed by a nice turntable. I didn;t noticve any KT66s, KT88s, DA100s, etc in that pile of valve boxes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 14:19:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 20:19:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <053801cc0332$0dc145c0$2943d140$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 25, 11 11:17:54 am Message-ID: > > > 4) Assemble the PSU section only, and if necessary connect it to dummy > load > > resistors. Power up and check the output voltages. Don't go any further > until > > they're cortrect > > > This is the bit I always wonder about. I have recently acquired a PDP-11/24 > and I want to try to power it up the "right" way. Is it sufficient to load > just one of the output pins from the PSU to avoid damaging the PSU, or do If a power supply needs a dummy load to work properly, or to be run without damage, it needs that load even if you're not checking that output. So yes, you have to have load resistors on all the outputs. > you need to load one of each of the different voltages? In my case the PSU > is a H7140 which has two backplane connectors with +5V, +15V, +12/15 B (not > sure what that means), -15V and -12/15 B. I think the 'B' outputs are ones from the optional battery backup unit. On most DEC macnhines if you don't have the battery abckup unit, the 'B' outputs are totally dead, and are strapped to the apporpriate 'normal' PSU rails on the backplane. I would check the schematics of the PSU, though. > > What kind of resistors would you use? I have a 10K resistor I bought for the > purpose of discharging capacitors (following an earlier discussion on this Right... 10K is far too large. You want to draw aa significant current from the PSU outputs, that's the point of the dummy load. I would say perhaps 1-2A (or maybe more) from the 5V output and at least 0.5A from the +15V and -15V outputs. Let's consdier the 5V output first. To draw 2A, you need a 2.5 Ohm (not k) resistor. R=V/I and all that :-). Also note that it will be dispating 5*2 = 10W as heat, so a small resisotr is not going to do it. One of the easiest things to sue for this are low voltage filament lamps 12V car bulbs (say a 12V 5W taillight bulb) is fine for a 12V supply. And probalby fine for a 15V supply too (yes, the bulb will have a short life at the higher voltage, but not so short as to worry you). For the 5V line, a 6V bulb is the best thing to use, many older cars had 6V electrics nad you may well be able to get a 6V 30W bulb (which will draw around 5A) from a vintage car parts company. I bought a couple of headlight bulbs (each with a apr of 30W or so filaments and a couple of stop/taillight bulbs (5W and 21W filamnets). That gives me a good selection of laod currents (and yes, I once parallel to two filaments of a headleam bubl to give a load drawing somewhat more than 10A to test a large SMPSU). > list), would that do? Would an admittedly riskier alternative be to connect > just the fans, would they provide enough load? In amny DEC machines, the fans run off the mains input to the power supply (possible via an autotransformer or equivelnet for 230V mains). They don't count as a PSU load at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 14:50:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 20:50:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive In-Reply-To: from "jonas@otter.se" at Apr 23, 11 09:36:56 am Message-ID: > I could connect it as a second drive in a PC. I think it is actually a > bog-standard drive. I think you're rpobsbly right, the ST has a pretty standaed disk interface. > > Connecting a new drive to the ST was dead easy, however most of the old > diskettes that came with the machine seem to be bad. Now I shall have to It's always possibl the alignment of that old drive was a bit off, and most of the disks youy have were recorded on a misaligned drive. In wichh case I guess you should try to get the drive going again anf fiddle with the alignment until it can read the disks. And then copy them to new disks recorded on a known-well-aligned drive. > try to get the old drive working again. > > I thought the head assembly on the old drive might have had bushes for > the guide rod. Not so, they were just holes punched through the sheet > metal... Ouch!. That's horrible. The service manuals I have for 3.5" drives (rather better 3.5" drives than this one) say that the slide rails are matched ot the head assembly, and you can't replace either separately. The tolerances are just too tight. I can't believe holes in sheeet metal are anything like accurate enough -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 25 15:16:38 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:16:38 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5C362.7030303@neurotica.com> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB5C362.7030303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB5D6A6.5060605@bitsavers.org> On 4/25/11 11:54 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> and there aren't a whole lot of good >> inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. > > I don't store my data on cheap hardware...and I'm willing to bet you don't either. > You're correct. I wasn't thinking about hardware cost. Software products like NexentaStor, which have some archival services built on top of ZFS, for example. I wish Oracle wouldn't have killed off releasing Honeycomb. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 25 15:26:02 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 21:26:02 +0100 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <053801cc0332$0dc145c0$2943d140$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 25, 11 11:17:54 am Message-ID: <057601cc0387$00b85350$0228f9f0$@ntlworld.com> > > One of the easiest things to sue for this are low voltage filament lamps 12V > car bulbs (say a 12V 5W taillight bulb) is fine for a 12V supply. And probalby > fine for a 15V supply too (yes, the bulb will have a short life at the higher > voltage, but not so short as to worry you). For the 5V line, a 6V bulb is the > best thing to use, many older cars had 6V electrics nad you may well be able > to get a 6V 30W bulb (which will draw around 5A) from a vintage car parts > company. I bought a couple of headlight bulbs (each with a apr of 30W or so > filaments and a couple of stop/taillight bulbs (5W and 21W filamnets). That > gives me a good selection of laod currents (and yes, I once parallel to two > filaments of a headleam bubl to give a load drawing somewhat more than > 10A to test a large SMPSU). > Tony, very helpful advice, as always. On a purely practical note what do you do about connecting the bulbs to the connectors? I'll need to find a suitable bulb holder, guessing somewhere like Maplin or RS would have something, although a quick search at Maplin didn't show anything that looked suitable. But what do you do for the end that you connect to the power connector? I am sure that with all the different types of connectors you encounter it might be difficult to come up with a reliable connection to the connector that will work with all or most connectors, do you do something custom for each PSU you test or do you have a more generic solution? Thanks Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 25 15:28:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 16:28:41 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5D6A6.5060605@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB5C362.7030303@neurotica.com> <4DB5D6A6.5060605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB5D979.6090603@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 4:16 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Software products like NexentaStor, which have some archival services > built on top of ZFS, for example. Have you used that? I've not yet looked into it, but I've heard people say good things about it. > I wish Oracle wouldn't have killed off releasing Honeycomb. You and me both. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Apr 25 15:32:08 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 16:32:08 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia Message-ID: Al writes: > Archiving on rotating rust has become a multi-billion dollar industry in the 21st century. In fact I distrust filesystems, OS's, data busses, etc., more than I distrust the rotating rust. And the more expensive or complicated the filesystems, OS's, and data busses become, the less I feel I should trust them. Many years ago I had a hard drive whose write gate failed "safe". You mean I just verified the cache instead of the media? I don't think I am putting excessive faith in bunzip2 -v, md5, and sha1, but you could try to convince me otherwise. Silent corruption of data is my worst fear of all. It's even worse than when Mr. Bemis's glasses break at the end of that Twilight Zone episode - it's more like he opened all the books and found them blank. Finding out the data wasn't there where I expected it, is far more disappointing than knowing it's there but I can't see it. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 25 16:24:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 17:24:16 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB5E680.2020805@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 2:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't know what your electronic background is like, but I am still > going to suggest you look at a book called 'The Art of Electronics' by > Horrowitz and Hill. It's not cheap, but it's very well explained and it > covers most (but not all) areas of electronics. This is excellent advice for beginners and experts alike. Win Hill is on a mailing list of mine...he's not very active there, but every now and then he pops in and just amazes everyone with his depth of knowledge. H&H TAOE is one of my favorite books. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Apr 25 17:16:24 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 18:16:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: <000901cbfe6c$c621d460$52657d20$@xs4all.nl> References: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl>, <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000901cbfe6c$c621d460$52657d20$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011, Rik Bos wrote: >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> Namens Richard >> Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2011 4:16 >> Aan: cctalk >> Onderwerp: Re: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 >> >> >> In article , >> Ian King writes: >> >>> Me three: Larry has always been a great guy to deal with. >> >> I guess I'll have to say me four. >> >> I have never dealt with the guy in person (I didn't even recall his name), > but I >> recall his ebay id and recall having good purchasing and shipping > experiences >> with him in the past. I haven't bought anything from him in a while; my > last >> purchase was a VT-100 keyboard in Jan. >> 2008. > > Well the discussion here set something in motion, it seems Larry posted my > items just after my initial posting : > > Your item was processed through and left our SAN JOSE, CA 95101 facility on > April 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm. The item is currently in transit to the > destination. Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout > the day. Please check again later. > > If the items arrive in good order I'll of cause will send him the by paypal > refunded money. > I'll keep you people posted. > > -Rik To put closure to my own story, my shipment finally showed up today, after being ordered and paid for on January 3rd. To his credit, Larry threw in a bunch of extra stuff for me. However, I will not be doing business with him again. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 25 17:23:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 15:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20110425152230.Y31559@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, ben wrote: > I really wonder how many glitches modern dram has? Well, IIRC, there are three scruples in a dram. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 25 17:32:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 18:32:53 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <20110425152230.Y31559@shell.lmi.net> References: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> <20110425152230.Y31559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB5F695.4040001@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 6:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I really wonder how many glitches modern dram has? > > Well, IIRC, there are three scruples in a dram. A dram (well, five or six) tends to have the opposite effect on me. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 25 17:50:13 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 15:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5BC33.3020909@neurotica.com> References: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB5BC33.3020909@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110425153414.I31559@shell.lmi.net> > I really wonder how many glitches modern dram has? The general public, and many power-lusers, have different priorities. Notice how many people PREFER non-parity RAM! (cf. Macintosh) The first expansion RAM, past MB, that i got for my 5150 was ECC from Boulder Creek Systems. But, they apparently were not popular enough to survive. A popular "performance tip" from the 1980s was "Turn off VERIFY; it doesn't do anything"! (NB: "Verify in PC does NOT read the data and compare it with what it was s'posed to be. It simply confirms that there is a valid sector present, with appropriate CRC.) Early versions of "PC Tools" from Central Point set the critical error handler to automatically return with "Ignore"! I found THAT out when there was content missing from my phone and order logs! Speed and not "bothering" you with error reports seem to be a higher priority than reliability and accuracy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 25 18:00:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 16:00:53 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <20110425153414.I31559@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4DB5BC33.3020909@neurotica.com>, <20110425153414.I31559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB59AB5.1873.17EFD3A@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2011 at 15:50, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I really wonder how many glitches modern dram has? > > The general public, and many power-lusers, have different priorities. Didn't Seymour Cray, when asked why his earlier mainframe designs had no parity say, "Parity is for farmers?" The lack of same didn't seem to hurt sales any. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 17:55:22 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 19:55:22 -0300 Subject: Omron Programmable Controller References: Message-ID: <11BEE295153E4CDBA90FBE6750934BCB@portajara> > This is funny. Amazing, I'd say :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 18:00:31 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 20:00:31 -0300 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia References: Message-ID: >In fact I distrust filesystems, OS's, data busses, etc., more than I >distrust the rotating rust. Many disks are now made of glass or some ceramic/vitreous substrate. :o) From evan at snarc.net Mon Apr 25 22:20:48 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 23:20:48 -0400 Subject: Ryan Suenaga Message-ID: <4DB63A10.8030101@snarc.net> This news has been all over the Apple II boards and blogosphere today, so I figured someone should post it here on cctalk. Ryan Suenaga, a very active and veteran member of the Apple II community, died yesterday in a hiking accident. He was only in his mid-40s. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 25 22:49:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 20:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110425204818.I39988@shell.lmi.net> > >In fact I distrust filesystems, OS's, data busses, etc., more than I > >distrust the rotating rust. On Mon, 25 Apr 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > Many disks are now made of glass or some ceramic/vitreous substrate. > :o) How do you magnetize it with no rust on it? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 25 22:57:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 23:57:21 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <20110425204818.I39988@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110425204818.I39988@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DB642A1.1020501@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 11:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> In fact I distrust filesystems, OS's, data busses, etc., more than I >>> distrust the rotating rust. > >> Many disks are now made of glass or some ceramic/vitreous substrate. >> :o) > > How do you magnetize it with no rust on it? Aren't some types of media nickel-based? Or is that just the substrate over the aluminum or glass platter, between that and the FeO2? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 25 23:22:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 21:22:46 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB642A1.1020501@neurotica.com> References: , <20110425204818.I39988@shell.lmi.net>, <4DB642A1.1020501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB5E626.16841.2A5AC7F@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Apr 2011 at 23:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > Aren't some types of media nickel-based? Or is that just the > substrate over the aluminum or glass platter, between that and the > FeO2? Nickel-cobalt alloy, usually, sputtered onto a phosphorous-nickel electroless coating (phosphorous-nickel isn't magnetic; pure nickel is, slighly). Some sort of protective coating is usually deposited onto the nickel-cobalt. There are also high-performance multi-layer coatings. --Chuck From curador at museudocomputador.com.br Sat Apr 23 18:08:25 2011 From: curador at museudocomputador.com.br (curador) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 20:08:25 -0300 Subject: Someone have some Windows NT4 with license?? I need around 100 pieces Message-ID: Jose carlos Valle -- * * * * *in English: http://museudocomputador.com.br/homeingles2.php V?DEOS SOBRE O MUSEU, RECICLAGEM E COTAS. * *SEJA UM PARCEIRO DO MUSEU, COMPRE UMA COTA DE R$ 250,00 E LEVE O MUSEU PARA SUA ESCOLA 2X AO ANO. LIGUE J? 11 4666-1338 OU 4666 7545 COM JOS? CARLOS VALLE* *V?DEOS SOBRE O MUSEU E PARCERIA ASSISTAM:* Olhar Digital http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIVcCDl4LnI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yLggafyqkk O Museu em Recife fev 2011: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tpEA3xlXyc O Museu no Jornal Nacional, notem que o Museu teve o maior tempo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJEIuMcYtzA TV Gazeta http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaxqyqgJakA NO site do Museu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKgUCeoXZ8c *MUSEU VIRTUAL EM 3D:* *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4uyVBW-tw* o Curador filmou a m?quina do Babbage ao vivo em 2007, na visita ao maior Museu do Mundo de Computadores, o Museu do Computador tem parceria com eles, e este v?deo mostra uma pe?a rara ao vivo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsI0rtM2ZYw Degiratti Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl7GEcY8DRc&feature=related IN English: http://www.museumprofessionals.org/forum/tell-us-about-your-museum/7015-museu-do-computador-brazil.html From curador at museudocomputador.com.br Sun Apr 24 14:57:31 2011 From: curador at museudocomputador.com.br (curador) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2011 16:57:31 -0300 Subject: I wanted 100 pieces of Windows NT4 with license Message-ID: Please send a email -- * * * * *in English: http://museudocomputador.com.br/homeingles2.php V?DEOS SOBRE O MUSEU, RECICLAGEM E COTAS. * *SEJA UM PARCEIRO DO MUSEU, COMPRE UMA COTA DE R$ 250,00 E LEVE O MUSEU PARA SUA ESCOLA 2X AO ANO. LIGUE J? 11 4666-1338 OU 4666 7545 COM JOS? CARLOS VALLE* *V?DEOS SOBRE O MUSEU E PARCERIA ASSISTAM:* Olhar Digital http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIVcCDl4LnI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yLggafyqkk O Museu em Recife fev 2011: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tpEA3xlXyc O Museu no Jornal Nacional, notem que o Museu teve o maior tempo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJEIuMcYtzA TV Gazeta http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaxqyqgJakA NO site do Museu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKgUCeoXZ8c *MUSEU VIRTUAL EM 3D:* *http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ4uyVBW-tw* o Curador filmou a m?quina do Babbage ao vivo em 2007, na visita ao maior Museu do Mundo de Computadores, o Museu do Computador tem parceria com eles, e este v?deo mostra uma pe?a rara ao vivo. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsI0rtM2ZYw Degiratti Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rl7GEcY8DRc&feature=related IN English: http://www.museumprofessionals.org/forum/tell-us-about-your-museum/7015-museu-do-computador-brazil.html From pinball at telus.net Mon Apr 25 17:37:28 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 15:37:28 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4DB5F7A8.9030901@telus.net> ben wrote: > ... > Can one get static memory for the modern machines? > Ben. > Those are called USB sticks...(and their ilk) John :-#)# From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Mon Apr 25 21:38:53 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 22:38:53 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... Message-ID: <4DB5F7FD020000E40001DF45@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Dang! Missed the obvious! Indeed, looks like the monitor was SYSGENed since there is an ANSwer file on the disk labelled SJFB.ANS I don't have the system running at the moment but will boot it again this weekend at latest and check the config but I'm sure that's it. I suspect the RT-11 copy either has FPU support enabled (which my 11/34 lacks) or one of the many timers (I have one on the DL-11W but that is it). The LSI system is an 11/73A so it is "loaded". I suppose it is time to SYSGEN a new copy - The SYSGEN.COM and a load of assorted files are already on an MFM drive (as a bootable MSCP device) . I have the SYSGEN manual from bitsavers so I guess it's time to play "seventy questions". Anything about the 11/34 I need to be aware-of in terms of options? I want SJ, but probably don't need SJ timer support. I'm running it from a dual RX-01 drive so I'll have to keep things to a minimum on this particular system. If I get ambitious later I can try a new "Qniverter" I picked-up to allow the 11/34 to use the LSI-11 disk controllers. Thanks! Mark > Why don't you just create a new "virgin" RT11 boot disk on your LSI? > E.g.: > .INIT DX0: > .COPY DL0:SWAP.SYS DX0: > .COPY DL0:RT11SJ.SYS DX0: > .COPY DL0:DX.SYS DX0: > .COPY DL0:DL.SYS DX0: > .COPY/BOOT:DX DL0:RT11SJ.SYS DX0: > > and then try booting the disk on the other system. > Or did I miss the posting where you've already mentioned that procedure? > What happens if you try another monitor, e.g. RT11FB or RT11BL? It may be > possible that your version of RT11SJ has been SYSGENed for some options in > your LSI machine. Type SHOW CONF on your LSI and what for the version > string like "RT-11FB (S) V05.03"; the (S) indicates a SYSGENed monitor. Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 26 01:04:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 02:04:30 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5F7A8.9030901@telus.net> References: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB5F7A8.9030901@telus.net> Message-ID: <4DB6606E.5030008@neurotica.com> On 4/25/11 6:37 PM, John Robertson wrote: >> Can one get static memory for the modern machines? >> Ben. > > Those are called USB sticks...(and their ilk) Ohhhh nononono...there's a BIG difference between flash and static RAM. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ceby2 at csc.com Tue Apr 26 03:39:51 2011 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 09:39:51 +0100 Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, I also have a 90s air cooled mainframe. Sadly I have all the hardware but no Bus and Tag cabling to go with it. I'd like to fire it up, but without the ability to cable it that's a remote pipe dream. I warn anyone taking one of these on to make sure they save the cabling from the copper scrappers as well. ESCON is still easy enough to get. Bus and tag has so far eluded me so I believe it must be getting thin on the ground. If anyone does know of a UK/Western Europe source, please let me know about it! Thanks, Colin Eby From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Apr 26 05:27:27 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 12:27:27 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM 3287 Message-ID: Hi, does anyone have the manuals (or even scans of them) for the IBM 3287 printer? I'm looking for information regarding setup, configuration and error codes. Christian From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Apr 26 06:42:13 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 07:42:13 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4DB5F7FD020000E40001DF45@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> References: <4DB5F7FD020000E40001DF45@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Message-ID: <4DB6AF95.3040309@compsys.to> >Mark Csele wrote: >Dang! Missed the obvious! > >Indeed, looks like the monitor was SYSGENed since there is an ANSwer file on the disk labelled SJFB.ANS I don't have the system running at the moment but will boot it again this weekend at latest and check the config but I'm sure that's it. > >I suspect the RT-11 copy either has FPU support enabled (which my 11/34 lacks) or one of the many timers (I have one on the DL-11W but that is it). The LSI system is an 11/73A so it is "loaded". > >I suppose it is time to SYSGEN a new copy - The SYSGEN.COM and a load of assorted files are already on an MFM drive (as a bootable MSCP device) . I have the SYSGEN manual from bitsavers so I guess it's time to play "seventy questions". > >Anything about the 11/34 I need to be aware-of in terms of options? I want SJ, but probably don't need SJ timer support. I'm running it from a dual RX-01 drive so I'll have to keep things to a minimum on this particular system. If I get ambitious later I can try a new "Qniverter" I picked-up to allow the 11/34 to use the LSI-11 disk controllers. > If you want a DEC distribution of RT-11, there are a number available for download at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ Up to V05.03 of RT-11 can be legally run under SIMH. There is a V04.00 and a V05.03 standalone file of DEC binary RT-11 distributions. I would suggest the RT11FB monitor since there an annoying aspects with RT11SJ. If you have all 256 KB of memory on the PDP-11/34 or the LSI system, the RT11XM monitor is even better. If you need help with the RT11DV10.ISO.zip file to get an older version of RT-11, please ask. Generally, they can be separated out using PUTR from John Wilson after you download the file and UnZip it into 4 RT-11 partitions. Or you can legally use SIMH to prepare your floppy media. If you have an 8" floppy on your PC, you can probably prepare an RX01 right on the PC. You would need a special controller on the PC to produce an RX02. I realize that you don't have an RX50 on your PDP-11 systems, but the HD 5 1/4" floppy drive on your PC can be used to prepare a bootable floppy for the PDP-11 system. However, be careful if you ever install an RQDXn controller. The RX50 drive uses DSDD PC media, NOT the HD PC media even though there are 80 tracks on the RX50. PUTR can be used to LLF (Low Level Format) the DSDD media on the PC. On the PDP-11, even XXDP can't LLF an RX50 (if I remember correctly). Jerome Fine From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Apr 26 12:24:28 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 12:24:28 -0500 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 4/26/11, ard wrote: >One of the easiest things to sue for this are low voltage filament >lamps 12V car bulbs (say a 12V 5W taillight bulb) is fine for a 12V >supply. And probalby fine for a 15V supply too (yes, the bulb will have a >short life at the higher voltage, but not so short as to worry you). For >the 5V line, a 6V bulb is the best thing to use, many older cars had 6V >electrics nad you may well be able to get a 6V 30W bulb (which will draw >around 5A) from a vintage car parts company. I bought a couple of >headlight bulbs (each with a apr of 30W or so filaments and a couple of >stop/taillight bulbs (5W and 21W filamnets). That gives me a good >selection of laod currents (and yes, I once parallel to two filaments of >a headleam bubl to give a load drawing somewhat more than 10A to test a >large SMPSU). FWIW, bicycles use a wide variety of bulbs, in a wide variety of voltage ratings. Here's one page http://www.reflectalite.com/halogenpage.html listing a bunch of them, in voltages from 2.2 V to 6 V and wattages from 1.25 W to 20 W. (Not a recommendation, they were just what came up first when I googled "bike headlight bulbs". I'd actually recommend your local brick-and-mortar bike shop, who could probably use the business...) I don't expect these are very cost-effective, but they should be more available (for the time being, anyway, until LED's take over there too) than antique-auto bulbs. But you may want/need to run several in parallel to add up the required power. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 26 12:55:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 10:55:23 -0700 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4DB6A49B.1012.43625D@cclist.sydex.com> It would seem to me that if you needed a dummy load for a power supply (and couldn't scrape up a bunch of power resistors), it would make the most sense to use the highest voltage incandescent lamps that you have at your disposal. The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). Instead of a automotive lamp, use a regular 120V (or 220V) incandescent(s). The ratio of hot-to-cold resistance will be much reduced (on a lamp operated at the rated voltage, hot-to-cold resistance is usually about 15 to 1). Or better yet, use a nichrome heating element from an old hair dryer or aquarium heater. Nicrhome V wire has only a 6% increase in resistance between 68F and 1600F. Just saying... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 26 13:06:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:06:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB5E680.2020805@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 25, 11 05:24:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/25/11 2:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't know what your electronic background is like, but I am still > > going to suggest you look at a book called 'The Art of Electronics' by > > Horrowitz and Hill. It's not cheap, but it's very well explained and it > > covers most (but not all) areas of electronics. > > This is excellent advice for beginners and experts alike. Win Hill > is on a mailing list of mine...he's not very active there, but every now > and then he pops in and just amazes everyone with his depth of knowledge. > > H&H TAOE is one of my favorite books. And as you may have guessed one of mine too. So much that I have both 1st nad 2nd editons and both of the student manuals. The latter are excellent too, but remembr they are written for a university course, so if you want to repeat the experient,s you need to have some reasonable test gear (bench PSU, 'scope, etc) which many beginners won't have at the start. Gettign bag to 'TAUE', it's one of the few books that start from the real basics like 'what is a resistor' and go on to microprocessors, etc. It's not a book you will 'grow out of'. And as I said, I found it very clearly written. Yes, there are some things in it that I would probably disagree with in the sense that I would design a different way. But I don't think there's anything there that made me exclaim 'They're suggesting WHAT?'. To be honest, if you read and understnad it, you may well think up other ways to do things. That's good. But you won't be learning stuff you have to unlearn later. My origianl comment could be taken to mean 'I don't know how much electronics you already know, but no matter what level you're at, read TAOE' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 26 13:59:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:59:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Apr 26, 11 12:24:28 pm Message-ID: > FWIW, bicycles use a wide variety of bulbs, in a wide variety of > voltage ratings. Here's one page Good suggestion! Having never riden a bicycle (and never intendign to), I am not sure of the rules over here now, but IIRC at one time only specific voltages and wattages of bulbs were permitted in bicycle lamps in the UK. What a daft regulation!. So such bulbs may not be as easy to get over here as elsewhere. But I suspect 6V tungsten-halogen bulbs are available without too much difficulty and would make ideal dummy loads > > http://www.reflectalite.com/halogenpage.html > > listing a bunch of them, in voltages from 2.2 V to 6 V and wattages > from 1.25 W to 20 W. (Not a recommendation, they were just what came A 6V 20W blub would draw pver 3A, and would be a suitable dummy load for many PSUs. [...] > I don't expect these are very cost-effective, but they should be more > available (for the time being, anyway, until LED's take over there > too) than antique-auto bulbs. But you may want/need to run several in Admitteedly it was about 10 years ago that I bougth them but I had no problems getting 6V car bulbs then. I suspect they are still made if you hunt around. > parallel to add up the required power. Sure, and that's easy to do... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 26 13:00:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:00:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <057601cc0387$00b85350$0228f9f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 25, 11 09:26:02 pm Message-ID: [Using car bulbs as dummy loads] > Tony, very helpful advice, as always. Thank you. > > On a purely practical note what do you do about connecting the bulbs to the Yes, it;s often the practical details that are missing (I can think of several books that are seriosuly lacking in such information). I will make some suggestions... > connectors? I'll need to find a suitable bulb holder, guessing somewhere > like Maplin or RS would have something, although a quick search at Maplin Car bulbs often have non-stnadard caps. The 'stop/tail' bulb has a B15-size (SBC) bayonet cap, but with offset pins so it can't be fitted the wrong way round in the car. So it won't fit a normal lampholder. Headlight bulbs are even worse. You won't find the holders in an elecrtronics catalogue, and if you ask to buy a spare light cluster at a car dealer, be sitting down when they quote the price :-). More seriously, I suspect you can get such things from breakers yards at a fairly sensible price. [ FWIW, when I replaced a headlamp unit on my father's car, I kept the wiring and connectors from the old one. I have no idea if I'll ever need them, or what for, but I don't throw things out if I can see a possible use for them :-)] Some headlamp bulbs (although I've not found a 6V one that this applies to) have terminals that will take 1/4" faston ('lucar spade') terminals, which fives an obvious way of connecting to them. Most of the time, though I cheat!. It's only a temporary job after all. The contacts on the base of the bulb are soft solder. The cap itself solders easitly too. I jsut tin the neds opf the wires and solder them to the bulb connections. > didn't show anything that looked suitable. But what do you do for the end > that you connect to the power connector? I am sure that with all the > different types of connectors you encounter it might be difficult to come up > with a reliable connection to the connector that will work with all or most > connectors, do you do something custom for each PSU you test or do you have > a more generic solution? This dependso n the machine, and in particualr how many I am likely to have to repair and how the PSU outputs are arranged. For example, if it's a separate SMPSU unit with a barrier strip or terminals for the outputs (as in a PERQ AGW3300), then I would just connec the lamp wires to the barrier strip. If it's a machine where there's a PSU regulator board and I am going to have several to repair (say an HP9826/HP9836, I own 3 such machine), I might make up a specail test unit to connect to the PSU board edge connector. The uint woudl cotnain dummy loads (possibly wirewound resistors, not lamps), monitor bulbs/LEDs and sockets to connect a voltmeter for testing. MAking such a unit is quite easy, but it can be a lot of work (in the case of the HP machines I just mentioned, designing it took about 10 minutes, soldering it up took about the same time, but drilling the box and making the spacers to fit the connectors at the right heights took a morning.) SOmetimes I just 'tack-solder' the load wires to points on the PSU board or backplane PCB. I don;t normally use crocodile clips, which have the amazing habit of springg off just when you don't want them to :-) My PDP8s and PDP11s have PSUs that are happy without dummy loads, you cna run them with no laod and just chekc the voltages. If I had one that needed a dummy load (or if I wanted to check on-load anyway), I'd probably make up a usnit ti the 15 pin plug wired to laod resistors/lamps. It's the sort of machine that is quite common, so it would be worth making up a test box. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 26 14:17:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:17:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <4DB6A49B.1012.43625D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 26, 11 10:55:23 am Message-ID: > > It would seem to me that if you needed a dummy load for a power > supply (and couldn't scrape up a bunch of power resistors), it would > make the most sense to use the highest voltage incandescent lamps > that you have at your disposal. > > The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I > expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep > resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). Tugsten filament lamps approximate a constant current load over quite a range of voltages (am I the only person to rememebr the baretter?). So your 110V 100Q bulb will draw a little under 1A at its rated voltage. At a lower voltage it will still draw only 1A. Let's work it out a little more accurately. At 110V, a 100W bulb draws 0.91A. If your figure for a hot-cold resistance swing of 15 times is right (and it sounds it, we can estimate that the hot resistance is about 121 ohms. The cold resistance is 1/15 of that, or 8.07 ohms. Connect that across a 5V PSU and it will draw 0.62A. Not really enough for a dummy load. A 6V 6W bulb (which is easy to get) would draw 1A and be most suitable. > Or better yet, use a nichrome heating element from an old hair dryer > or aquarium heater. Nicrhome V wire has only a 6% increase in > resistance between 68F and 1600F. If you are really crazy, use containers of salt water with suitable electrodes in them :-). Just don't knock them over and spill the liquid into the machine under test. -tony From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Apr 26 14:36:46 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) Message-ID: <8CDD26069DB9EB1-21B4-33945@webmail-m047.sysops.aol.com> On Tue Apr 26 14:17:26 CDT 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > If you are really crazy, use containers of salt water with suitable > electrodes in them :-). Just don't knock them over and spill the liquid > into the machine under test. Hmm. A home brew dummy load with variable resistance. (Add salt to taste.) Martha Stewart meets Forrest Mims. ;-) T From db at db.net Tue Apr 26 14:40:02 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:40:02 -0400 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: <4DB6A49B.1012.43625D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110426194002.GA92529@night.db.net> On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 08:17:26PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > ... > > The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I > > expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep > > resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). HP remembered this. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 26 14:52:29 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:52:29 +0100 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: from "Mark Tapley" at Apr 26, 11 12:24:28 pm Message-ID: <05ed01cc044b$7ae83b80$70b8b280$@ntlworld.com> > Admitteedly it was about 10 years ago that I bougth them but I had no > problems getting 6V car bulbs then. I suspect they are still made if you hunt > around. > Indeed, I had no trouble locating some here: http://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/, including bulb holders too (I didn't realise you could get generic bulb holders, I thought they would be specific to each car and so quite expensive, thankfully this is not the case). Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 26 14:55:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:55:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <8CDD26069DB9EB1-21B4-33945@webmail-m047.sysops.aol.com> from "tiggerlasv@aim.com" at Apr 26, 11 03:36:46 pm Message-ID: > > If you are really crazy, use containers of salt water with suitable=20 > > electrodes in them :-). Just don't knock them over and spill the liquid= > =20 > > into the machine under test. > > > Hmm. A home brew dummy load with variable resistance. (Add salt to taste.= > ) > Or vary the spacing between the electrodes or the depth that they're immesed in the brine. Seriosuly, such things have been used, and while they're better on AC than DC (due to electrolytic effects), they can be used as PSU dummy loads. But solid resistors (be they commercial wirewound ones, lengths of resistance wirte taken from old electric heaters, or filament bulbs) are a lot easier to handle. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 26 14:56:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:56:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <20110426194002.GA92529@night.db.net> from "Diane Bruce" at Apr 26, 11 03:40:02 pm Message-ID: > > > The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I > > > expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep > > > resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). > > HP remembered this. Indeed they did. In the Mdoel 200 Audio Oscillator for one thing ;-) I am sure it's mentioned in one of Fred Terman's books too, not suprisingly... -tony From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Apr 26 15:00:35 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 22:00:35 +0200 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <20110425153414.I31559@shell.lmi.net> References: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB5BC33.3020909@neurotica.com> <20110425153414.I31559@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110426200035.GB29080@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Apr 25, 2011 at 03:50:13PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I really wonder how many glitches modern dram has? > > The general public, and many power-lusers, have different priorities. > > Speed and not "bothering" you with error reports seem to be a higher > priority than reliability and accuracy. Getting the wrong answer really, really fast seems to be all that is important for quite a lot of people. This also explains the popularity of "database systems" that don't even pretend to provide full ACID[0]. And when I tell people "the _important_ filesystems on my home server (system, /home, /var/spool/mail, revision control repositories) sit on mirrored SCSI drives and are backed up to DLT & LTO tapes" they look at me like I'm crazy ... Kind regards, Alex. [0] Atomicity, Consistency, Isolation, Durability -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Apr 26 15:38:19 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:38:19 -0400 Subject: This is a Xerox Star, right? Message-ID: <1a8b2009$aed81d5$4157b299$@com> > > On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:17:52 -0400, B. Degnan wrote > > I am looking for confirmation that this is a Xerox 8010 / Xerox Star: > > > > http://vintagecomputer.net/xerox/8010/ > > Ah, given those floppies and lack of display, yours may have been a print > server; see e.g. http://www.digibarn.com/friends/curbow/star/5/index.html > > -- Hopefully I will find the monitor and mouse. Here is a pic that matches my system http://toastytech.com/guis/starsidebyside.jpg From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 26 15:49:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:49:49 -0400 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB72FED.2060304@neurotica.com> On 4/26/11 3:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I >>>> expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep >>>> resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). >> >> HP remembered this. > > Indeed they did. In the Mdoel 200 Audio Oscillator for one thing ;-) Well, "H" did, anyway. ;) I have two Model 200s. I will restore them to museum-quality (both aesthetically and functionally) when I get my new workspace. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 26 15:55:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:55:37 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <20110426200035.GB29080@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4DB5AF7F.6050207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DB5BC33.3020909@neurotica.com> <20110425153414.I31559@shell.lmi.net> <20110426200035.GB29080@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4DB73149.2070402@neurotica.com> On 4/26/11 4:00 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: >>> I really wonder how many glitches modern dram has? >> >> The general public, and many power-lusers, have different priorities. >> >> Speed and not "bothering" you with error reports seem to be a higher >> priority than reliability and accuracy. > > Getting the wrong answer really, really fast seems to be all that > is important for quite a lot of people. This also explains the popularity > of "database systems" that don't even pretend to provide full ACID[0]. [Dave grumbles in agreement] > And when I tell people "the _important_ filesystems on my home server > (system, /home, /var/spool/mail, revision control repositories) sit on > mirrored SCSI drives and are backed up to DLT& LTO tapes" they look at > me like I'm crazy ... You're hanging out with the wrong people. If they don't "get" that, they're morons. End of story. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 26 15:56:31 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 21:56:31 +0100 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <057601cc0387$00b85350$0228f9f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 25, 11 09:26:02 pm Message-ID: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> > > My PDP8s and PDP11s have PSUs that are happy without dummy loads, you > cna run them with no laod and just chekc the voltages. If I had one that > needed a dummy load (or if I wanted to check on-load anyway), I'd probably > make up a usnit ti the 15 pin plug wired to laod resistors/lamps. It's the sort > of machine that is quite common, so it would be worth making up a test > box. > Interesting you should mention the PDP11. The PSU I need to test is from a PDP11/24, it is a H7140. I think it is Switched Mode, but it is pretty heavy and rated at 1200W which makes me wonder (I have no experience of other PDP11s, this is my only one, so I don't know how typical this is, but it is a far cry from the PSUs in my MicroVAXen). Any idea if this PSU needs a dummy load to check the voltages? Thanks Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 26 15:59:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:59:26 -0400 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <8CDD26069DB9EB1-21B4-33945@webmail-m047.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDD26069DB9EB1-21B4-33945@webmail-m047.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DB7322E.7010503@neurotica.com> On 4/26/11 3:36 PM, tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > Hmm. A home brew dummy load with variable resistance. (Add salt to taste.) > > Martha Stewart meets Forrest Mims. ;-) There's a really, really bad image there. And Minnie would likely be pretty pissed. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 26 16:02:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 17:02:46 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> References: <057601cc0387$00b85350$0228f9f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 25, 11 09:26:02 pm <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DB732F6.9040507@neurotica.com> On 4/26/11 4:56 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Interesting you should mention the PDP11. The PSU I need to test is from a > PDP11/24, it is a H7140. I think it is Switched Mode, but it is pretty heavy > and rated at 1200W which makes me wonder (I have no experience of other > PDP11s, this is my only one, so I don't know how typical this is, but it is > a far cry from the PSUs in my MicroVAXen). Hey, that's the same monstrously complex power supply as is used in the 11/44. It is in fact a switcher. Tony can speak volumes about this particular power supply. > Any idea if this PSU needs a dummy load to check the voltages? I'm almost positive that it does, yes, at least on the +5V output. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 26 16:09:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 17:09:42 -0400 Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB73496.2040008@neurotica.com> On 4/26/11 4:39 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > I also have a 90s air cooled mainframe. Sadly I have all the hardware but > no Bus and Tag cabling to go with it. I'd like to fire it up, but without > the ability to cable it that's a remote pipe dream. I warn anyone taking > one of these on to make sure they save the cabling from the copper > scrappers as well. ESCON is still easy enough to get. Bus and tag has so > far eluded me so I believe it must be getting thin on the ground. If > anyone does know of a UK/Western Europe source, please let me know about > it! They're definitely not easy to find, but they do show up on eBay every year or so. Terminators seem to be easier to find than cables. Which model do you have? I have a 9375 (with a full set of cables :)) that I hope to be able to power up in the coming months. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Apr 26 16:44:51 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:44:51 -0500 Subject: Dummy loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB73CD3.7070800@tx.rr.com> On 4/26/2011 2:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I >> expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep >> resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). > > Tugsten filament lamps approximate a constant current load over quite a > range of voltages (am I the only person to rememebr the baretter?). I'm sure it's just a typo, and I apologize in advance for being too dumb to figure it out, but what is a baretter? (Sounds quite interesting, but an internet search couldn't figure it out either, except for some things in languages I don't understand.) Thanks, Charlie C. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 26 16:49:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 14:49:40 -0700 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <20110426194002.GA92529@night.db.net> References: <4DB6A49B.1012.43625D@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20110426194002.GA92529@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DB6DB84.24181.119E299@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2011 at 15:40, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 08:17:26PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > ... > > > The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I > > > expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep > > > resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). > > HP remembered this. It was common knowledge in the 1930s. I have a "Radio Engineering" handbook from the late 30s that shows the consutruction of an audio signal generator using a common panel lamp for temperature compensation. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 26 16:53:39 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 14:53:39 -0700 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: <4DB6A49B.1012.43625D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 26, 11 10:55:23 am, Message-ID: <4DB6DC73.4632.11D886F@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2011 at 20:17, Tony Duell wrote: > A 6V 6W bulb (which is easy to get) would draw 1A and be most > suitable. Unless inrush current matters (as it can on many PSUs with overcurrent protection). At the moment you switch the PSU on, that lamp will draw considerably more current until it reaches operating temperature. My point was that by using a higher-voltage lamp, the difference between "cold" and "operating" resistances is much less. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 26 17:13:38 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:13:38 -0700 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <057601cc0387$00b85350$0228f9f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <053801cc0332$0dc145c0$2943d140$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob,Jarratt" at Apr 25, 11 11:17:54 am , <057601cc0387$00b85350$0228f9f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > > > > One of the easiest things to sue for this are low voltage filament lamps > 12V > > car bulbs (say a 12V 5W taillight bulb) is fine for a 12V supply. And > probalby > > fine for a 15V supply too (yes, the bulb will have a short life at the > higher > > voltage, but not so short as to worry you). For the 5V line, a 6V bulb is > the > > best thing to use, many older cars had 6V electrics nad you may well be > able > > to get a 6V 30W bulb (which will draw around 5A) from a vintage car parts > > company. I bought a couple of headlight bulbs (each with a apr of 30W or > so > > filaments and a couple of stop/taillight bulbs (5W and 21W filamnets). > That > > gives me a good selection of laod currents (and yes, I once parallel to > two > > filaments of a headleam bubl to give a load drawing somewhat more than > > 10A to test a large SMPSU). > > > > Tony, very helpful advice, as always. > > On a purely practical note what do you do about connecting the bulbs to the > connectors? I'll need to find a suitable bulb holder, guessing somewhere > like Maplin or RS would have something, although a quick search at Maplin > didn't show anything that looked suitable. But what do you do for the end > that you connect to the power connector? I am sure that with all the > different types of connectors you encounter it might be difficult to come up > with a reliable connection to the connector that will work with all or most > connectors, do you do something custom for each PSU you test or do you have > a more generic solution? > > Thanks > > Rob > Hi For socket to match automotive bulbs, might I suggest going to your local auto parts store. Dwight From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 26 17:30:23 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:30:23 -0700 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB732F6.9040507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 4/26/11 2:02 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 4/26/11 4:56 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: -snip > >> Any idea if this PSU needs a dummy load to check the voltages? > > I'm almost positive that it does, yes, at least on the +5V output. > > -Dave It's a shame that suits do not a good dummy load make :( From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 26 17:52:33 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 18:52:33 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB74CB1.1090103@neurotica.com> On 4/26/11 6:30 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>> Any idea if this PSU needs a dummy load to check the voltages? >> >> I'm almost positive that it does, yes, at least on the +5V output. > > It's a shame that suits do not a good dummy load make :( But they do! Their resistance goes WAY down if you give them a good jolt of high voltage first. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 26 18:18:07 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:18:07 -0700 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB732F6.9040507@neurotica.com> References: <057601cc0387$00b85350$0228f9f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 25, 11 09:26:02 pm <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> <4DB732F6.9040507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 2:03 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: new here > > On 4/26/11 4:56 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > Interesting you should mention the PDP11. The PSU I need to test is > from a > > PDP11/24, it is a H7140. I think it is Switched Mode, but it is > pretty heavy > > and rated at 1200W which makes me wonder (I have no experience of > other > > PDP11s, this is my only one, so I don't know how typical this is, but > it is > > a far cry from the PSUs in my MicroVAXen). > > Hey, that's the same monstrously complex power supply as is used in > the 11/44. It is in fact a switcher. Tony can speak volumes about > this > particular power supply. > > > Any idea if this PSU needs a dummy load to check the voltages? > > I'm almost positive that it does, yes, at least on the +5V output. > A switcher simply won't run without a load. FYI -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 26 18:51:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:51:34 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <057601cc0387$00b85350$0228f9f0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 25, 11 09:26:02 pm <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> <4DB732F6.9040507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB75A86.8070805@neurotica.com> On 4/26/11 7:18 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> Any idea if this PSU needs a dummy load to check the voltages? >> >> I'm almost positive that it does, yes, at least on the +5V output. > > A switcher simply won't run without a load. FYI -- Ian I have quite a few of them that run just fine without a load. I've also designed quite a few that also run fine without a load. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 26 18:59:40 2011 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:59:40 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB75A86.8070805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <422268.69591.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:51:34 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have quite a few of them that run just fine without a load. I've >also designed quite a few that also run fine without a load. There needs to be a small internal load than to maintain bias, there can not be 0 internal and 0 external load. something about efficency going to infinity. The other Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 26 19:05:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:05:21 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <422268.69591.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <422268.69591.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DB75DC1.3060206@neurotica.com> On 4/26/11 7:59 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> I have quite a few of them that run just fine without a load. I've >> also designed quite a few that also run fine without a load. > > There needs to be a small internal load than to maintain bias, there can not be 0 internal and 0 external load. > something about efficency going to infinity. I'd like to see the math on that. I have a pretty good grasp of switching regulators; I've done a lot with them in various designs. Admittedly only very small ones for portable equipment though, in the sub-1A range, but the concepts are the same. PWM a transistor between saturation and cutoff, smooth it out with a capacitor, sample the output into an error amplifier to control the PWM duty cycle. No load there, unless you're talking about leakage across the PCB and such. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Apr 26 19:21:02 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 17:21:02 -0700 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB75DC1.3060206@neurotica.com> References: <422268.69591.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DB75DC1.3060206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 5:05 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: new here > > On 4/26/11 7:59 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > >> I have quite a few of them that run just fine without a load. > I've > >> also designed quite a few that also run fine without a load. > > > > There needs to be a small internal load than to maintain bias, there > can not be 0 internal and 0 external load. > > something about efficency going to infinity. > > I'd like to see the math on that. I have a pretty good grasp of > switching regulators; I've done a lot with them in various designs. > Admittedly only very small ones for portable equipment though, in the > sub-1A range, but the concepts are the same. PWM a transistor between > saturation and cutoff, smooth it out with a capacitor, sample the > output > into an error amplifier to control the PWM duty cycle. No load there, > unless you're talking about leakage across the PCB and such. > OK, it sounds to me that in your designs the difference between load and no-load conditions are sufficiently small that you are designing your control loop to no-load conditions and loading is not substantial enough to push your design out of that window. As I consider it, I guess I should not say that *any* switcher will fail to run without a load - I have a little wall-wart for my Android tablet that puts out 5V just fine (although I have to wonder if there isn't an internal load that consumes a small parasitic amount of energy). But for the designs we see in vintage systems - such as the H7100 - they require a significant load for the control loop to function. In such systems the load is an indispensable component in the control loop. -- Ian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Apr 26 20:41:14 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 02:41:14 +0100 Subject: Latest DiscFerret beta software Message-ID: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Here's a screenshot of the analysis side of the current DiscFerret software build: http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/philpem/Screenshot-1.png At the moment, I've got it reading IMG files (the format of some disc images Chuck Guzis sent me a while back). CWI files are next on the hit list (another one of Chuck's file formats) and then DFI files (the DiscFerret native raw image format). The GUI was built with wxWidgets, and in theory the code is completely cross-platform compatible. I'm aware of wxWidgets backends for GTK, Mac Cocoa/Carbon and Windows, so that covers all the major *nixes, OS X and Windows. As long as you have a half-way decent C++ compiler, that is (*cough* GCC). However: I will openly admit that the code has only been tested on Linux. It slows down to an absolute crawl (~60 seconds refresh time) if you turn anti-aliasing on... though I suppose that's to be expected when you ask it to plot 30-odd thousand data points on a scatter chart... The raw-reader app is working too -- I can specify the various parameters of a disc drive, and do a full track-by-track read of an entire disc, and dump the data into a file. Next on the 'add list' is DFI support (so the analyser can read it, of course!) then disc-format script support. Effectively, I want a tool which can be told what type of drive is in use, what disc format, and will automatically figure out whether double-stepping is needed, and what read parameters to use. Even to the point where it'll warn you if you specify a 100tpi format and a 96 or 48tpi drive... Built in sanity checking :) Which now brings us onto naming -- the reader app currently calls itself "discferret-read", and the analyser "Merlin". Can anyone think of better names for these, or should I be lazy leave them as-is? (Suggestions on an email to the usual address please!) At this point the reader app is close to releasable (involving maybe a few more weeks of work assuming I find a ready supply of Round Tuits), but the analyser needs a lot more work. Mainly because I seem to be spending a lot of time chasing mismatched-free bugs in the algorithms. Thank $DEITY for Valgrind (and a great big sarcastic "gee, *thanks guys*" to the GTK developers who have obviously never heard of it, much less used it on their own code...) Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 26 20:41:45 2011 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 21:41:45 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB75DC1.3060206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <743282.45231.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:05:21 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'd like to see the math on that. I have a pretty good grasp of >switching regulators; I've done a lot with them in various designs. >Admittedly only very small ones for portable equipment though, in the >sub-1A range, but the concepts are the same. PWM a transistor between >saturation and cutoff, smooth it out with a capacitor, sample the output >into an error amplifier to control the PWM duty cycle. No load there, >unless you're talking about leakage across the PCB and such. Ohm's law comes unglued when R goes to infinity. Capacitive reactance comes into play, maybe thats enough load? But an RC circuit with infinate R will always seek the peek voltage of the pulse, no matter the freq untill there is some load to regulate around. The other Bob From jonas at otter.se Tue Apr 26 12:46:05 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:46:05 +0200 Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB704DD.10803@otter.se> On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 20:50:53 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)wrote: > > I think you're rpobsbly right, the ST has a pretty standaed disk interface. > Connecting a new drive involved no more than jumpering for drive select 0, the disk change jumper was already installed. After plugging in it Just Worked. > It's always possibl the alignment of that old drive was a bit off, and > most of the disks youy have were recorded on a misaligned drive. In wichh > case I guess you should try to get the drive going again anf fiddle with > the alignment until it can read the disks. And then copy them to new > disks recorded on a known-well-aligned drive. > I'll get round to seeing about getting it working fairly soon. When it seems to be doing its thing I shall have to see about aligning it. > Ouch!. That's horrible. The service manuals I have for 3.5" drives (rather > better 3.5" drives than this one) say that the slide rails are matched ot > the head assembly, and you can't replace either separately. The > tolerances are just too tight. I can't believe holes in sheeet metal are > anything like accurate enough > Nothing in this drive appears to be matched in any way. OTOH the slide rail is eccentric at the ends and has a slot for a screwdriver, so it is obviously meant to be adjusted. It is supported on tabs bent up from the metal chassis, and the head slide is made from the same sheet metal. There are two wide tabs bent out underneath, with holes punched so that the metal forms a sort of bush for the slide rail. It looks very cheap I must say. How would you suggest I lubricate the slide rail? Light oil or some kind of light grease? /Jonas From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 18:34:15 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:34:15 -0400 Subject: new here Message-ID: > On 4/24/11 10:04 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> There are quite a few PDP8 owners/enthiasts here. I've got an 8/e with >> 32K words of core, ?RX01, TU56 and PC04 on my desk. I've also got an 8/a >> upstairs somewhere, but it's got the 8/e CPU board set in it, not the >> hex-height 8/a CPU board. I am told that was a stnadard variant. We (RICM) have an 8/I with 5x TU55 drives, a pair of bare 8/L, and a very functional 8/S that now runs FOCAL. I can give plenty of advice on ferroresonant power supply capacitors. Advice is easy to supply. -- Michael Thompson From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Apr 27 02:01:43 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:01:43 +0100 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <4DB6DB84.24181.119E299@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > > It was common knowledge in the 1930s. I have a "Radio Engineering" > handbook from the late 30s that shows the consutruction of an audio > signal generator using a common panel lamp for temperature > compensation. I saw the technique used once in a Practical Electronics article sometime in the 1980s (or thereabouts). So I don't think it was forgotten, just not used very often. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 07:00:46 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:00:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Lisa Office System install blues.. In-Reply-To: References: <317682.35953.qm@web121619.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> On Mon, 11 Apr 2011, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> >>> --- On Sun, 4/10/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> >>>> If I try to repair the disk, it tells me to contact a >>>> service specialist and mentions error 200/662. There's >>>> no error 200 listed in the Lisa repair manual, but 662 is >>>> ProFile parity error. It's hard to believe that, since >>>> the drive passes format and certify on an Apple /// and >>>> MacWorksXL on the Lisa has no problem with it. >>>> > >>> Does the Profile pass the test when running LisaTest? >> >> No, it fails under LisaTest with the same odd symptoms: No sign that it's >> even trying to access the disk! Just goes away for a a bit and announces a >> fail. I never see the ProFile light flicker. >> >> I'm starting to wonder if Lisa OS has stricter timing or perhaps checks >> parity while MacOS does not. > > Update: I took the plunge (so to speak) and soaked the motherboard and I/O > board in vinegar for a few hours to neutralize any remaining battery leakage > (had previously cleaned it with PCB flux solvent). This seems to have done > the trick, so there must have been some crud embedded where I could not see > it. > > LisaTest is now happy with the ProFile. Onward to system installation (as > soon as I receive some disk copies that are on their way). I received a known-good set of diskettes for LOS and the various applications ("tools"). Installation went smoothly and I now have a fully-functional 7/7 Office System environment. Next up: Ressurrect the second system. > Finally, does anyone know if there are later copies of the Profile formatter > EPROM floating around? I have one that works on 5M ProFiles, but the > formatter utility always complains about the version being backlevel. At > least one site on the web shows this procedure with no complaints, so someone > must have it. Would appreciate a copy or leads to anyone who can help. I was unable to find a later version of the 5M formatter, but I found a copy of the 10M formatter that a user in Germany had given me some time back. It is too large for the Z8 piggyback I'd been using. Just picked up a 4k ROM piggyback Z8 on eBay and will try with that one. Steve -- From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 08:44:29 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 09:44:29 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB5E626.16841.2A5AC7F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20110425204818.I39988@shell.lmi.net>, <4DB642A1.1020501@neurotica.com> <4DB5E626.16841.2A5AC7F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DB81DBD.6040808@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Aren't some types of media nickel-based? Or is that just the >> substrate over the aluminum or glass platter, between that and the >> FeO2? > > Nickel-cobalt alloy, usually, sputtered onto a phosphorous-nickel > electroless coating (phosphorous-nickel isn't magnetic; pure nickel > is, slighly). Some sort of protective coating is usually deposited > onto the nickel-cobalt. > > There are also high-performance multi-layer coatings. Aren't pretty much all the perpendicular-recording coatings multi-layer? Peace... Sridhar From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 27 09:08:38 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 07:08:38 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB82366.4020304@bitsavers.org> On 4/25/11 11:54 AM, Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow >> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 11:48 AM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia >> >> On 4/25/11 11:29 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I moved everything to ZFS several years ago after looking at the >> design. >>> >> >> Unfortunately, Oracle controls it now, and there aren't a whole lot of >> good >> inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. >> >> > > It looks like there are several ports to non-Solaris platforms, at various stages of maturity. -- Ian > > besides http://zfsonlinux.org/ ? From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Apr 27 09:20:27 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:20:27 -0400 Subject: Dummy loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB8262B.10407@verizon.net> On 04/27/2011 03:01 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: >> It was common knowledge in the 1930s. I have a "Radio Engineering" >> handbook from the late 30s that shows the consutruction of an audio >> signal generator using a common panel lamp for temperature >> compensation. > I saw the technique used once in a Practical Electronics article > sometime > in the 1980s (or thereabouts). So I don't think it was forgotten, just > not used very often. > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org That was a wide spread application for negative feedback and level controls. My Measurements M803A signal generator (6CW4 nuvister for Osc) has a 7W sewing machine lamp in the solid state audio oscillator. I've seen that same arrangement used in many audio generators of the Wein Bridge type. I've also seen thermistors with both positive and negative temperature coefficients used for that purpose. It's not forgotten and its old. Allison From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Apr 27 09:23:50 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 09:23:50 -0500 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 18:59 -0500 4/26/11, ard wrote: >If you are really crazy, use containers of salt water with suitable >electrodes in them :-). Just don't knock them over and spill the liquid >into the machine under test. ...and do work in a ventilated area. The bubbles evolving off the salt water will be, er, flammable, yes? Did this with the kids, 12V supply = jump cables from my car, foil "electrodes" in salt water, inverted test tube on a long holder, and a candle to verify the type of gas (used the holder to move the tube over the candle). Lucked out and collected the Hydrogen on the first try (well, it wasn't really luck. The electrode with twice as many bubbles had to be the H2.) They were suitably impressed. I was impressed how fast the aluminum foil went away (into solution). -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Apr 27 09:45:54 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:45:54 -0400 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201104271045.54523.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 27 April 2011 10:23:50 am Mark Tapley wrote: > At 18:59 -0500 4/26/11, ard wrote: > >If you are really crazy, use containers of salt water with suitable > >electrodes in them :-). Just don't knock them over and spill the liquid > >into the machine under test. > > ...and do work in a ventilated area. The bubbles evolving off the > salt water will be, er, flammable, yes? > > Did this with the kids, 12V supply = jump cables from my car, > foil "electrodes" in salt water, inverted test tube on a long holder, > and a candle to verify the type of gas (used the holder to move the > tube over the candle). Lucked out and collected the Hydrogen on the > first try (well, it wasn't really luck. The electrode with twice as > many bubbles had to be the H2.) They were suitably impressed. I was > impressed how fast the aluminum foil went away (into solution). I did something similar way back when, only I used carbon rods scavenged from dead "D" cells for the electrodes. Tried it first with batteries, and that was awfully slow. So then I got this bright idea of using a selenium rectifier and a line cord I had handy... It was *amazing* how fast it went at that point! I had to keep adding water, of course, and since "stuff" in the water stayed put as the electrolysis proceeded, the water got darker and darker. This was right out of the tap, and it put me off of drinking water for quite some time. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Apr 27 09:41:45 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 16:41:45 +0200 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB82366.4020304@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB82366.4020304@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110427144145.GA5890@thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 07:08:38AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/25/11 11:54 AM, Ian King wrote: > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >>bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > >>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 11:48 AM > >>To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>Subject: Re: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia > >> > >>On 4/25/11 11:29 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>>I moved everything to ZFS several years ago after looking at the > >>design. > >>> > >> > >>Unfortunately, Oracle controls it now, and there aren't a whole lot of > >>good > >>inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. > >> > >> > > > >It looks like there are several ports to non-Solaris platforms, at various stages of maturity. -- Ian > > > > > > besides http://zfsonlinux.org/ ? FreeBSD has ZFS support which is supposed to be good, but I haven't looked too closely at it. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 09:49:30 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:49:30 -0400 Subject: Older PDP-8 repair (was Re: new here) Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > We (RICM) have an 8/I with 5x TU55 drives, a pair of bare 8/L, and a > very functional 8/S that now runs FOCAL. Did you have to do any work on that -8/S? I have one that needs a lot of replacement bulbs and some sleuthing in the "lock" circuit (the switch is fine, but the machine behaves as if it's always in "lock" mode). I've done lots of work on M-series machines like the -8/L and -8/i (it's where I got my start with 12 bits), but virtually no debugging of the older logic. I built a simple M-series FLIP-CHIP tester with a DEC backplane socket and an 6821 PIA, but it was straightforward to abstract different arrangements of inputs and outputs for different modules. I haven't done the homework to see how many types of R/S-series modules are used in a Straight-8 or -8/S, so I'm not even sure how difficult it would be to make a comparable logic tester. I'd like to automate the testing to the point where I could at least plug in a suspect module and either flip some switches or type some commands to exercise the inputs and monitor the outputs - yes, one can debug pre-TTL machines with a lot of clip leads and an oscilloscope, but I'd like to abstract that one level to see what boards need detailed attention. Has anyone ever considered building an automated or semi-automated R/S-Series module tester? Did it get further than musings and drawings? -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Apr 27 10:15:20 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prototype board... Message-ID: I'm trying to find a 2 sided prototype board that's got a male card edge on it with .156 finger pitch. Ideally a 2*12 (24 fingers) board would be nice, but I can cut down anything larger. Google hasn't been much help. :( tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Apr 27 10:34:36 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 17:34:36 +0200 Subject: Older PDP-8 repair (was Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 4:49 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Older PDP-8 repair (was Re: new here) > On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Michael Thompson > wrote: >> We (RICM) have an 8/I with 5x TU55 drives, a pair of bare 8/L, and a >> very functional 8/S that now runs FOCAL. > > Did you have to do any work on that -8/S? I have one that needs a lot > of replacement bulbs and some sleuthing in the "lock" circuit (the > switch is fine, but the machine behaves as if it's always in "lock" > mode). I've done lots of work on M-series machines like the -8/L and > -8/i (it's where I got my start with 12 bits), but virtually no > debugging of the older logic. I built a simple M-series FLIP-CHIP > tester with a DEC backplane socket and an 6821 PIA, but it was > straightforward to abstract different arrangements of inputs and > outputs for different modules. I haven't done the homework to see how > many types of R/S-series modules are used in a Straight-8 or -8/S, so > I'm not even sure how difficult it would be to make a comparable logic > tester. I'd like to automate the testing to the point where I could > at least plug in a suspect module and either flip some switches or > type some commands to exercise the inputs and monitor the outputs - > yes, one can debug pre-TTL machines with a lot of clip leads and an > oscilloscope, but I'd like to abstract that one level to see what > boards need detailed attention. > > Has anyone ever considered building an automated or semi-automated > R/S-Series module tester? Did it get further than musings and > drawings? > > -ethan Nope, but Vince and I did a project for "single width" M modules. Expanding to "dual-width" would be relatively easy. See www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/flipchip/flipchipstartpage.html or via the updated navigation pane at the left (my projects -> FlipChip tester) on www.pdp-11.nl - Henk. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 27 10:49:19 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 08:49:19 -0700 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4DB7D88F.14404.239EA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2011 at 9:23, Mark Tapley wrote: > Did this with the kids, 12V supply = jump cables from my car, > foil "electrodes" in salt water, inverted test tube on a long holder, > and a candle to verify the type of gas (used the holder to move the > tube over the candle). Lucked out and collected the Hydrogen on the > first try (well, it wasn't really luck. The electrode with twice as > many bubbles had to be the H2.) They were suitably impressed. I was > impressed how fast the aluminum foil went away (into solution). -- In the same vein, have you ever fooled with liquid rectifiers? The anode is aluminum; the cathode is usually lead in a soluton of sodium bicarbonate. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 27 11:00:55 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:00:55 -0600 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 812 photos Message-ID: I've uploaded photos of a Nuclear Data ND 812 system that I obtained recently. Its a little dirty, but its a rare system. It is the companion lab equipment that goes with the Nuclear Data ND 6600 terminal that I obtained earlier. I haven't reverse engineered all the subsystems yet, so some of my current understanding is guesswork. However, the system appears to consist of: - ND 812 CPU rack chassis - (2) peripheral control rack chassis - 1 dual 8" floppy drive rack chassis with drives and controller - 1 dual 8" floppy drive rack chassis containing only a power supply - (2) ND 600 data entry terminals with 4 NIM slots each Pictures: Bitsavers docs on the ND 812: NIM standard: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Apr 27 11:08:39 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 18:08:39 +0200 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <201104271045.54523.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <201104271045.54523.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110427160839.GA24915@thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 10:45:54AM -0400, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: > On Wednesday 27 April 2011 10:23:50 am Mark Tapley wrote: > > At 18:59 -0500 4/26/11, ard wrote: > > >If you are really crazy, use containers of salt water with suitable > > >electrodes in them :-). Just don't knock them over and spill the liquid > > >into the machine under test. > > > > ...and do work in a ventilated area. The bubbles evolving off the > > salt water will be, er, flammable, yes? > > > > Did this with the kids, 12V supply = jump cables from my car, > > foil "electrodes" in salt water, inverted test tube on a long holder, > > and a candle to verify the type of gas (used the holder to move the > > tube over the candle). Lucked out and collected the Hydrogen on the > > first try (well, it wasn't really luck. The electrode with twice as > > many bubbles had to be the H2.) They were suitably impressed. I was > > impressed how fast the aluminum foil went away (into solution). > > I did something similar way back when, only I used carbon rods scavenged from dead "D" cells for the electrodes. Tried it first with batteries, and that was awfully slow. So then I got this bright idea of using a selenium rectifier and a line cord I had handy... > > It was *amazing* how fast it went at that point! > > I had to keep adding water, of course, and since "stuff" in the water stayed put as the electrolysis proceeded, the water got darker and darker. This was right out of the tap, and it put me off of drinking water for quite some time. :-) When I did that way back, I also used scavenged carbon rods from old batteries and the water aquired a nice blackish/grayish tint. On closer inspection, that seemed to be caused by carbon being eroded off the electrodes. They sure weren't as smooth as originally after a while. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Apr 27 11:22:53 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 12:22:53 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia Message-ID: >>>> I moved everything to ZFS several years ago after looking at the >>> design. >>>> >>> >>> Unfortunately, Oracle controls it now, and there aren't a whole lot of >>> good >>> inexpensive choices for that class of scalable storage. >> >> It looks like there are several ports to non-Solaris platforms, at various stages of maturity. - Ian >besides http://zfsonlinux.org/ ? Having read up on ZFS I am very impressed with the level of paranoia. Especially its distrust of what has become "industry standard" solutions to data storage reliability. E.g.: * ZFS can not fully protect the user's data when * using a hardware RAID controller, as it is not able * to perform the automatic self-healing unless it * controls the redundancy of the disks and data. * ZFS prefers direct, exclusive access to the disks, * with nothing in between that interferes. That's the level of paranoia that I want! I was always convinced the RAID controllers are only specified to screw me over. I make the folks with tinfoil hats look like wannabes. From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Apr 27 12:40:25 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:40:25 +0200 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 812 photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB85509.1000800@update.uu.se> 2011-04-27 18:00, Richard skrev: > I've uploaded photos of a Nuclear Data ND 812 system that I obtained > recently. Its a little dirty, but its a rare system. It is the > companion lab equipment that goes with the Nuclear Data ND 6600 > terminal that I obtained earlier. Thanks for showing an unusual system. I have seen a ND terminal once, a friend of mine has one. I also used to own a NIM module, but I gave it away as part of a trade (at least I think so, I will double check). Regards, Pontus. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 27 13:15:43 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 12:15:43 -0600 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 812 photos In-Reply-To: <4DB85509.1000800@update.uu.se> References: <4DB85509.1000800@update.uu.se> Message-ID: In article <4DB85509.1000800 at update.uu.se>, Pontus writes: > 2011-04-27 18:00, Richard skrev: > > I've uploaded photos of a Nuclear Data ND 812 system that I obtained > > recently. Its a little dirty, but its a rare system. It is the > > companion lab equipment that goes with the Nuclear Data ND 6600 > > terminal that I obtained earlier. > > Thanks for showing an unusual system. I have seen a ND terminal once, a > friend of mine has one. I also used to own a NIM module, but I gave it > away as part of a trade (at least I think so, I will double check). If your friend's terminal is anything like mine, its pretty useless all by itself. There is no video refresh circuitry in the terminal at all, merely circuitry to drive the CRT deflection coils/yokes from the externally supplied signal. Its kinda more like a monitor than a terminal in that regard. You could consider the terminal a monitor + keyboard combination. The keyboard sends back data over a flat ribbon cable. If your friend is interested in selling his terminal, let me know. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Apr 27 13:47:27 2011 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:47:27 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-11 weight In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <249601cc050b$8e86f490$ab94ddb0$@machm.org> Will - I could give you a somewhat educated guess -- I had a development 11/60 in 1978. As a single cabinet (dual RL02 drives, no tape drive), it ran about 60 inches high x 60 inches wide x 30 inches deep (deeper if you outrigger the feet at the front). Not sure at all on the weight, but I'm thinking 500-600 lbs? -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 12:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: DEC PDP-11 weight What are the dimensions and weights of a PDP-11/60 in the late model cabinet - the one that was used on the DECsystem branded PDP-11/70s? Google image search for "DECsystem 570". No drives installed. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 14:24:16 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 15:24:16 -0400 Subject: Nuclear Data ND 812 photos In-Reply-To: <4DB85509.1000800@update.uu.se> References: <4DB85509.1000800@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Pontus wrote: > 2011-04-27 18:00, Richard skrev: >> >> I've uploaded photos of a Nuclear Data ND 812 system that I obtained >> recently... > > ... I also used to own a NIM module, but I gave it away > as part of a trade I never owned any NIM modules myself, but AMANDA (the Antarctic Muon And Neutrino Detector Array - the predecessor to IceCube) had a couple NIM bins, so I had to maintain a little bit of it a few years back. Mostly, I moved a trigger cable now and again and replaced dead PSUs. The modules themselves were quite robust. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 27 15:09:14 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:09:14 -0600 Subject: Tektronix photos updated Message-ID: With the addition of two more Tektronix 4015-1 terminals, I've rearranged my Tektronix storage tube terminals in the warehouse and uploaded some updated pictures of "Tektronix storage tube row". (The 4015-1 is essentially a 4014 with APL and printer interface options.) Neither of the 4015's are reported to be in working condition from the seller, but at least all the keycaps with APL glyphs are present. The 4010 and 4014 are relatively simple terminals, so I should be able to restore them to working order. They have no microprocessor, firmware code or custom ASICs, so repairing them should be a matter of replacing capacitors or replacing TTL or analog parts. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Apr 27 15:16:32 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <54398.81491.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/27/11, Richard wrote: > > Wow. So jealous. The 4014 is such an awesome terminal - can't believe you've managed to find *three* of them, much less all those others. That blue one - is that actually a blue picture tube, or just the normal Tek storage tube with a blue filter? -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 13:12:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:12:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive In-Reply-To: <4DB704DD.10803@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Apr 26, 11 07:46:05 pm Message-ID: > Nothing in this drive appears to be matched in any way. OTOH the slide > rail is eccentric at the ends and has a slot for a screwdriver, so it is > obviously meant to be adjusted. It is supported on tabs bent up from the Dies tguis just miove the head up and down, or does it also move it from side to side. I am wondering if it's there to adjust the depth of engagement between the rack and pinion. > metal chassis, and the head slide is made from the same sheet metal. > There are two wide tabs bent out underneath, with holes punched so that > the metal forms a sort of bush for the slide rail. It looks very cheap I > must say. It sounds horrible :-( > > How would you suggest I lubricate the slide rail? Light oil or some kind > of light grease? Hmm.. The better drives have phosphor bronze boushes on the head carriage which will socka up a little oil, so I generally lubricate those with a few drops of watch oil. But in something like you seem to have, I think a light grease would be nore appropriate. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 13:33:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:33:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <4DB72FED.2060304@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 26, 11 04:49:49 pm Message-ID: > >>>> The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I > >>>> expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep > >>>> resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). > >> > >> HP remembered this. > > > > Indeed they did. In the Mdoel 200 Audio Oscillator for one thing ;-) > > Well, "H" did, anyway. ;) > > I have two Model 200s. I will restore them to museum-quality (both > aesthetically and functionally) when I get my new workspace. Nice! It's an insturment I'd like to own, and they're nto rare (or even that expensive) on E-bay, but I think shipping one across the Pond might be a problem. One day perhaps.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:41:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:41:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Apr 26, 11 03:30:23 pm Message-ID: > It's a shame that suits do not a good dummy load make :( They're more suitable (!) on higher voltage supplies.... Great for CRT final anodes, for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:25:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:25:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 26, 11 09:56:31 pm Message-ID: > Interesting you should mention the PDP11. The PSU I need to test is from a > PDP11/24, it is a H7140. I think it is Switched Mode, but it is pretty heavy How do I put this... You've been thrown in the deep end :-) Am I correct that your 11/24 is in the 10.5" (6U) box? Boards going in vertically from the top? If so, it is the PSU I am thinking of. I came across it in the 11/44, and it's one of the most complciatred PSUs you are likely to come across. It is a swtich mode unit. Or rather it's several switch-mode PSUs. The basic design is as follows : Incoming mains is rectified ans charges a pair of coke-can size capactiros at the left hand side. This provides about 350V DC which powers 3 SMSPUS sections : 1) A small one, to provide power for the PSU control electronics. 2) The 'logic' supply. This is an SMPSU which provides the main +5V rial and also +/-15V rails for the RS232 ports, etc 3) The 'memory' supply. This is another SMPSU,. giving 36V. This 36V rail can be battery-backed by an optional unit which you probbly don't have. The 36V is brought down to +5V, +12V and -12V for the memory boards by switchign regulators (non-isolting ones, of course). it's also chopped by a full-H circuit to provide power for the 35V 70Hz cooling fans. This is one of the few PDP11 supplies where the fans do nto run off the mains. A word of warning. If you remvoe the top cover from the PSU you will see barrier terminal blocks at the tops of some of the PCBs. In particualr there ar 2-way ones with red and black wires on 2 of the PCBs. These wires carry the 350V DC input, which is not isolated from the mains. Touch those with the mains connected and you won't feel anything. Ever again. Seriously, it could well be fatal. That said, it's a more friendly SMPSU than most, in that much of the control circuity is isolated from the mains (so you can connect a 'scope or whatever to it without problems) and scehamtics are avaialble. > and rated at 1200W which makes me wonder (I have no experience of other I am pretty sure this is the same supply... > PDP11s, this is my only one, so I don't know how typical this is, but it is > a far cry from the PSUs in my MicroVAXen). > > Any idea if this PSU needs a dummy load to check the voltages? Actually, I don't think it does. I don't remember needing one when I repaired the PSU in my 11/44. Certianly I've never met a DEC-designed supply that is damaged by running on no load (the output votlages may be low or missing, bit it won't damage any parts), so it's safe to try it. But a dummmy load is not a bad idea, particularly on the main 5V rail (ffro mthe logic supply, rated at 125A or something similar). I don't know if the 11/24 is similar, but on the 11/44, this output is a pair of studs/nuts that flexiprint tails from the backplane go onto. I think i'd remove all the logic boards form the machine (keeping a note of their positions!), conenct, say, 30W or more of 6V bulbs across the logic supply 5V output and power up. Check all the voltages. If any are out of spec, try adding a load to them beforediving into the PSU internals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:58:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:58:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <4DB7D88F.14404.239EA7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 27, 11 08:49:19 am Message-ID: > In the same vein, have you ever fooled with liquid rectifiers? The > anode is aluminum; the cathode is usually lead in a soluton of sodium > bicarbonate. The Nodon valve? I've read about them, never had the urge to kmake one. I thought hte electrolyte was more commonly ammonium phosphat, or at least I think that's what the book I've read reocmmends. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:38:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:38:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <4DB6DC73.4632.11D886F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 26, 11 02:53:39 pm Message-ID: > > On 26 Apr 2011 at 20:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > > A 6V 6W bulb (which is easy to get) would draw 1A and be most > > suitable. > > Unless inrush current matters (as it can on many PSUs with > overcurrent protection). At the moment you switch the PSU on, that The output cirucit of most PSUs has a sizeable capacitro across the output terminals. That will take a high current at switch-on too. I've never had a PSU that has a problem powering a suitably-rated filament lamp. Such PSUs probably exist, but it's not somethign to worry about. Of course if the PSU won't start up, then you have to investigate why, and it might be the inrush current of the load (but if it is, I would suspect there are other problems with the PSU) > lamp will draw considerably more current until it reaches operating > temperature. My point was that by using a higher-voltage lamp, the > difference between "cold" and "operating" resistances is much less. Ture, but given that a 110V 110W bulb is essntially an 8 ohm resistor when cold, you might as well use a, 8.2 Ohm wire-wound resistor across the 5V terminals. It will dissipate a little over 3W (and for testing, I would be suprised if a 3W 8.2 Ohm resistor wasn't adequate). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 13:15:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:15:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <05ed01cc044b$7ae83b80$70b8b280$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 26, 11 08:52:29 pm Message-ID: > Indeed, I had no trouble locating some here: > http://www.autobulbsdirect.co.uk/, including bulb holders too (I didn't Thanks for the URL. They seem to sell some useful stuff. I noticed that the 6V bulbs are mostly listed as 'scooter bubls' which suggests a motorcycle shop would be a place to try for them. Even if they didn;'t stock them they might be able to order them. > realise you could get generic bulb holders, I thought they would be specific > to each car and so quite expensive, thankfully this is not the case). The car-specifc ones come as part of the complete light cluster, and are expensive. I'd not seen generic ones before but it makes sense. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:50:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:50:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Apr 27, 11 08:01:43 am Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > > > > It was common knowledge in the 1930s. I have a "Radio Engineering" > > handbook from the late 30s that shows the consutruction of an audio > > signal generator using a common panel lamp for temperature > > compensation. > > I saw the technique used once in a Practical Electronics article > sometime > in the 1980s (or thereabouts). So I don't think it was forgotten, just > not used very often. I was very common ito the transistor/IC era. OK, sometimes you used a thermistor not a light bulb, but the principle was the same. A couple of examples off the top of my head : The Philips EE1003/1004 kits have a project ot make a Wien bridge oscillator using a filament lamp to stabilise the gain. That was all discrete transistors There was a Heathkit analoge electronics trainer (in the same series as the well-known 6800 computer one), which has a built-in signal generaotr. It's a Wein bridge circuit using an op-amp for the ampliifer, agian with a small filament lamp tocontrol the gain. There was a very xommon small audio sig-gne used in schools and university undergraduate labs over here. Yes, a Wein bridge (although oddly the capitro, not the resistor, was the variable part), using a thermisotr for gain control. There must be many others.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:56:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:56:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Apr 27, 11 09:23:50 am Message-ID: > > At 18:59 -0500 4/26/11, ard wrote: > >If you are really crazy, use containers of salt water with suitable > >electrodes in them :-). Just don't knock them over and spill the liquid > >into the machine under test. > > ...and do work in a ventilated area. The bubbles evolving off the > salt water will be, er, flammable, yes? Indeed yes... And don't smoke :-) On th whole I think I'll stick to sold metalic resistors fro this... To the newcomer who startd this thread and who now probalby wonders what the heck is going on, perhaps I can offer a little explanaition. This list has some seriously knowledagable and well-qualified [1] people on it, but topics tend to drift for just aogbut any reason. So a talk on PSU testing can (and did) drift ot a discussion of HPs first product. Enjoy... [1] I am not one of those. I have no qualifications in electronics or computing. > > Did this with the kids, 12V supply = jump cables from my car, You mean you don;'t have a bench supply??? > foil "electrodes" in salt water, inverted test tube on a long holder, > and a candle to verify the type of gas (used the holder to move the > tube over the candle). Lucked out and collected the Hydrogen on the > first try (well, it wasn't really luck. The electrode with twice as > many bubbles had to be the H2.) They were suitably impressed. I was H2 normally comes off at the -ve electorde too... It's not uncommon to get Cl2 at the positive electrode. Another reason to do it in a well-ventilated area. > impressed how fast the aluminum foil went away (into solution). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:33:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:33:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads In-Reply-To: <4DB73CD3.7070800@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Apr 26, 11 04:44:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/26/2011 2:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I > >> expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep > >> resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). > > > > Tugsten filament lamps approximate a constant current load over quite a > > range of voltages (am I the only person to rememebr the baretter?). > > I'm sure it's just a typo, and I apologize in advance for being too dumb > to figure it out, but what is a baretter? (Sounds quite interesting, It is a typo, or rather a mis-spelling. It should be 'barretter;. A barretter is a constant-current device, essentially a special type of filament lime. Often the filament was iron wire in a hydrogen-filled bulb (or so I've read). The current floowing though the device was fairly constant for quite a wide range of voltages across it. Some UK series-string radio sets had one in series with the heater chain (rather than a dropping resistor) so that the heater current would be correct for jsut about any mains input voltage. The were also used as a ballast for the Nernst glower in some IR sources (which is where I first came across one at school [I managed to convicne the powers that be that getting me to chase a ball around an area of grass was a waste of everyone's time, so I got to fiddle with electronics stuff instead. Getting the old IR source to work again was just one of the many things I tried] FWIW, if you have an old device using a barretter, you can often use a mains-voltage lamp to replace it. I am pretty sure I used a normal 60W bulb (so 0.25A at 240V) to replace a 0.3A barrretter in said IR source. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 27 15:45:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:45:53 -0600 Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: <54398.81491.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <54398.81491.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <54398.81491.qm at web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > --- On Wed, 4/27/11, Richard wrote: > > > > > > > Wow. So jealous. The 4014 is such an awesome terminal - can't believe > you've managed to find *three* of them, much less all those others. Its 5 actually (3 with glare hoods, 2 without); 7 if you include the 4015s. > That blue one - is that actually a blue picture tube, or just the > normal Tek storage tube with a blue filter? I haven't powered that one on, but I suspect its green phosphor with blue safety glass shield. I do like the blue anodized aluminum look of the case, though. The blue one was sitting outside in the yard of a surplus dealer. It will need careful inspection and possibly some restoration work before power-on. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 27 16:01:27 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <447021.64939.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > With the addition of two more > Tektronix 4015-1 terminals, I've > rearranged my Tektronix storage tube terminals in the > warehouse and > uploaded some updated pictures of "Tektronix storage tube > row".? (The > 4015-1 is essentially a 4014 with APL and printer interface > options.) Thought #1: Wow! Thought #2: I'm jealous Thought #3: I sure do miss the 4014 (I guess it must have been a 4015, because I'm pretty sure it had APL) I used in college Thought #4: Where did you say this warehouse was? Thought #5: If you find one of those 4015s has been "liberated," it wasn't me :) Seriously, that's a very impressive Tek collection. BLS From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 27 16:01:55 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:01:55 -0700 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: <4DB7D88F.14404.239EA7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 27, 11 08:49:19 am, Message-ID: <4DB821D3.11795.141CFCA@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2011 at 20:58, Tony Duell wrote: > The Nodon valve? I've read about them, never had the urge to kmake > one. I thought hte electrolyte was more commonly ammonium phosphat, or > at least I think that's what the book I've read reocmmends. A wide range of electrolytes can be used.. Sodium phosphate, carbonate, bicarbonate, ammonium sulfate, etc. In the US, bicarbonate of soda was most frequently employed by amateurs because it was cheap and easy to obtain. The same apparently applies to the anode--aluminum is not the only metal that exhibits the property. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 27 16:07:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 14:07:23 -0700 Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: References: <54398.81491.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4DB8231B.848.146CF83@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2011 at 14:45, Richard wrote: > I haven't powered that one on, but I suspect its green phosphor with > blue safety glass shield. I do like the blue anodized aluminum look > of the case, though. The blue one was sitting outside in the yard of > a surplus dealer. It will need careful inspection and possibly some > restoration work before power-on. Yeah, the safety shield is blue (actually sort of a blue-green). I used one of these in the 1970s and found it useful because you could display a comparatively large amount ot text (for the time) on a single screen. On the other hand, once the display was full--poof!-- the screen was erased and started all over again. No scrolling on these things. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 16:31:37 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 16:31:37 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: txs for all the info boys gals currently nursing a concussion from a freak incident with a table so just taking it easy also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 27 17:15:32 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 16:15:32 -0600 Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: <447021.64939.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <447021.64939.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <447021.64939.qm at web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, "Brian L. Stuart" writes: > Thought #4: Where did you say this warehouse was? Its in Salt Lake City, where I'm housing the collection of the Computer Graphics History Museum that I'm building. > Thought #5: If you find one of those 4015s has been "liberated," > it wasn't me :) The building has a security system :-) > Seriously, that's a very impressive Tek collection. Its for my 1970s exhibit: I want enough Tek terminals that 4-6 people can simultaneously have a vintage hands-on experience. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Apr 27 17:23:55 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 18:23:55 -0400 Subject: uPD7220 GDC prototype PCBs Message-ID: <5C8AE3A01048443298F89EB3237C60FE@andrewdesktop> Hi! I am giving away the remaining uPD7220 GDC prototype boards. If there is anyone interested in working on a 7220 GDC project please let me know. These boards are designed for ECB although will interface to any Z80 quite easily. Other systems would take some work but still possible. Also, there is a page on the N8VEM wiki for the uPD7220 V2 prototype board with schematics, PCB layout, test software, etc. There will be a new board coming out soon but these prototype boards work fine with some very minor tweaks. For more details see here http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/t/2b566d452dd7b460 Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, pair this board up with an SBC-188 or your homebrew 8088 board and we could have a completely free/open FreeDOS/OpenGEM solution! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 27 17:25:43 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 23:25:43 +0100 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 26, 11 09:56:31 pm Message-ID: <068801cc052a$1059fd00$310df700$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 27 April 2011 20:26 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: new here > > > Interesting you should mention the PDP11. The PSU I need to test is > > from a PDP11/24, it is a H7140. I think it is Switched Mode, but it is > > pretty heavy > > How do I put this... You've been thrown in the deep end :-) > > Am I correct that your 11/24 is in the 10.5" (6U) box? Boards going in > vertically from the top? If so, it is the PSU I am thinking of. I came across it > in the 11/44, and it's one of the most complciatred PSUs you are likely to > come across. Yes, this is an exact description of what I have. > > It is a swtich mode unit. Or rather it's several switch-mode PSUs. The basic > design is as follows : > > Incoming mains is rectified ans charges a pair of coke-can size capactiros at > the left hand side. This provides about 350V DC which powers 3 SMSPUS > sections : I saw those capacitors and realized I need to steer well clear of them after power has been applied. > > 1) A small one, to provide power for the PSU control electronics. > > 2) The 'logic' supply. This is an SMPSU which provides the main +5V rial and > also +/-15V rails for the RS232 ports, etc > > 3) The 'memory' supply. This is another SMPSU,. giving 36V. This 36V rail > can be battery-backed by an optional unit which you probbly don't have. > The 36V is brought down to +5V, +12V and -12V for the memory boards by > switchign regulators (non-isolting ones, of course). it's also chopped by a > full-H circuit to provide power for the 35V 70Hz cooling fans. This is one of > the few PDP11 supplies where the fans do nto run off the mains. > > A word of warning. If you remvoe the top cover from the PSU you will see > barrier terminal blocks at the tops of some of the PCBs. In particualr there ar > 2-way ones with red and black wires on 2 of the PCBs. These wires carry the > 350V DC input, which is not isolated from the mains. > Touch those with the mains connected and you won't feel anything. Ever > again. Seriously, it could well be fatal. Thanks for the warning. I find PSUs worrying at the best of times, even before your warning this one already scares me rather more, which is why I am trying to do things more correctly than usual. > > That said, it's a more friendly SMPSU than most, in that much of the control > circuity is isolated from the mains (so you can connect a 'scope or whatever > to it without problems) and scehamtics are avaialble. > > > and rated at 1200W which makes me wonder (I have no experience of > > other > > I am pretty sure this is the same supply... > > > PDP11s, this is my only one, so I don't know how typical this is, but > > it is a far cry from the PSUs in my MicroVAXen). > > > > Any idea if this PSU needs a dummy load to check the voltages? > > Actually, I don't think it does. I don't remember needing one when I repaired > the PSU in my 11/44. Certianly I've never met a DEC-designed supply that is > damaged by running on no load (the output votlages may be low or missing, > bit it won't damage any parts), so it's safe to try it. Sounds like I could give it a quick whirl with everything disconnected just to see if there is anything that fails even at that first stage. Then I can proceed to adding a load and checking voltages, I can't do that yet because the bulbs I ordered have not arrived yet. > > But a dummmy load is not a bad idea, particularly on the main 5V rail (ffro > mthe logic supply, rated at 125A or something similar). I don't know if the > 11/24 is similar, but on the 11/44, this output is a pair of studs/nuts that > flexiprint tails from the backplane go onto. I found three types of connector from the PSU to the rest of the machine. There are six 15-pin connectors (5 rows of 3 pins), with only three connectors actually connected. Then there are two connectors I don't know how to describe but are each a single row of about 10 or so pins, the connector is very like the ones you find on a MicroVAX II power supply if you have seen one of those.. Finally there were two wires with spade connectors on them which connected to a couple of tabs on the PSU. > > I think i'd remove all the logic boards form the machine (keeping a note of > their positions!), conenct, say, 30W or more of 6V bulbs across the logic > supply 5V output and power up. Check all the voltages. If any are out of spec, > try adding a load to them beforediving into the PSU internals. > > -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 27 17:31:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 16:31:36 -0600 Subject: uPD7220 GDC prototype PCBs In-Reply-To: <5C8AE3A01048443298F89EB3237C60FE@andrewdesktop> References: <5C8AE3A01048443298F89EB3237C60FE@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: In article <5C8AE3A01048443298F89EB3237C60FE at andrewdesktop>, "Andrew Lynch" writes: > Hi! I am giving away the remaining uPD7220 GDC prototype boards. > [...] It might help if I knew what this board was supposed to do. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Apr 27 17:53:04 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 22:53:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual Message-ID: I've found a control Data 8528 Digital Communications Terminal Reference Manual at a book sale for $1 :-) It's letter size, soft cover, about 100 pages, contains a number of schematics and is copyrighted in 1964. The 8528 appears to be a 12-bit modem that can be used over coax, microwave or leased telephone links at up to 10^5 words/sec. It comes with a telephone handset in case you want to talk to the person on the other end :-) It can be yours for the cost of media mail shipping from 27606. I see that CHM has one (but no scans posted), but I don't see a copy on bitsavers, so Al gets dibs if he wants it. I can also scan it free for anyone who's interested. Alexey From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 18:09:23 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 18:09:23 -0500 Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i got a scanner and could add it to the stuff i am scanning up in manitoba canada On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > I've found a control Data 8528 Digital Communications Terminal Reference > Manual at a book sale for $1 :-) > > It's letter size, soft cover, about 100 pages, contains a number of > schematics and is copyrighted in 1964. The 8528 appears to be a 12-bit modem > that can be used over coax, microwave or leased telephone links at up to > 10^5 words/sec. It comes with a telephone handset in case you want to talk > to the person on the other end :-) > > It can be yours for the cost of media mail shipping from 27606. I see that > CHM has one (but no scans posted), but I don't see a copy on bitsavers, so > Al gets dibs if he wants it. I can also scan it free for anyone who's > interested. > > Alexey > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 27 19:28:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:28:34 -0400 Subject: uPD7220 GDC prototype PCBs In-Reply-To: References: <5C8AE3A01048443298F89EB3237C60FE@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4DB8B4B2.3000301@neurotica.com> On 4/27/11 6:31 PM, Richard wrote: >> Hi! I am giving away the remaining uPD7220 GDC prototype boards. >> [...] > > It might help if I knew what this board was supposed to do. There aren't too many things a uPD7220 can do, graphics guy. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 27 21:00:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 22:00:37 -0400 Subject: Older PDP-8 repair (was Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB8CA45.7080200@neurotica.com> On 4/27/11 10:49 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I haven't done the homework to see how many types of R/S-series > modules are used in a Straight-8 or -8/S, The 8/S contains these modules: A702 -10V reference supply R001 diode network (seven diodes) R002 diode network (five two-input diode networks) R107 seven inverters R111 expandable NAND/NOR gate R113 NAND/NOR gate R151 binary to octal decoder R202 dual flip-flop R302 dual one-shot R401 clock generator R602 pulse amplifier R603 pulse amplifier W005 clamped loads W050 lamp driver W501 schmitt trigger W506 power monitor -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 27 21:45:01 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 22:45:01 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DB8D4AD.7050306@neurotica.com> On 4/27/11 5:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > txs for all the info boys gals > > currently nursing a concussion from a freak incident with a table so just > taking it easy > also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg Mmm, nice HP scope, 1707A maybe? And some of the little modular HP counter/DMM units on top of it? What models? What's the large unit on the shelf above the scope? It looks extremely GenRad-ish, or possibly early Boonton, but I don't recognize the model. And what's the walkie-talkie-looking radio, ham HT or something else? Someone stashed a tire under your electronics workbench. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 27 21:52:38 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 22:52:38 -0400 Subject: Dummy loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB8D676.60900@neurotica.com> On 4/27/11 2:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have two Model 200s. I will restore them to museum-quality (both >> aesthetically and functionally) when I get my new workspace. > > Nice! It's an insturment I'd like to own, and they're nto rare (or even > that expensive) on E-bay, but I think shipping one across the Pond might > be a problem. One day perhaps.... Beware, I've never seen one in good condition. The crinkle-finish paint is always flaking off. :-( I think they're worth owning, though, for their history. It's a great design that really withstood the test of time. I did recently happen upon an HP 210A "square wave generator". I say that in quotes because it's actually just a clipped amplifier that one drives (switch-selectably) from the 60Hz line or from an external sine-wave generator. Its styling matches that of the 200 series, as does its rock-solid quality of construction. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 27 22:10:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 23:10:52 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <20110427144145.GA5890@thangorodrim.de> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB82366.4020304@bitsavers.org> <20110427144145.GA5890@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4DB8DABC.7080608@neurotica.com> On 4/27/11 10:41 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > FreeBSD has ZFS support which is supposed to be good, but I haven't looked > too closely at it. I've heard that too, but then I've heard some horror stories. From the Linux side, I've tried it, but it is (or at least was, I haven't looked at it in about a year) done through the userspace driver, which makes it slower than pissing tar. These two things were the primary reasons behind my saying that I (personally) only trust it, at least currently, on Solaris. And there, I trust it completely, with everything that matters. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 27 22:24:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 23:24:15 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <743282.45231.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <743282.45231.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DB8DDDF.1040206@neurotica.com> On 4/26/11 9:41 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> I'd like to see the math on that. I have a pretty good grasp of >> switching regulators; I've done a lot with them in various designs. >> Admittedly only very small ones for portable equipment though, in the >> sub-1A range, but the concepts are the same. PWM a transistor between >> saturation and cutoff, smooth it out with a capacitor, sample the output >> into an error amplifier to control the PWM duty cycle. No load there, >> unless you're talking about leakage across the PCB and such. > > Ohm's law comes unglued when R goes to infinity. > Capacitive reactance comes into play, maybe thats enough load? > > But an RC circuit with infinate R will always seek the peek voltage of the pulse, > no matter the freq untill there is some load to regulate around. I promise you that I'm not trying to be either dense or argumentative here, but we're just talking about (assuming we're talking about the same thing) an electrically-controlled switch in series with a power input with a capacitor to ground on the other side, and a resistive voltage divider after the capacitor that generates a PWM control voltage to the oscillator that drives the switch. Nowhere in this arrangement is there any requirement for a load. Based on your comments, though, I'm starting to suspect that we're talking about two completely different circuit topologies. Why don't you (if you're so inclined and have a moment) describe in more detail the topology you're talking about, assuming I'm correct that it's something different. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From n8uhn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 27 23:26:52 2011 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 21:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Salt Water Dummy loads Message-ID: <305963.18033.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Salt Water load devices were not used just for dummy loads. in the very days of live theatere (think Vaudville) the first electric light dimmers were square wooden boxes filled a water based brine with the electrodes fitted to a wood handle. the handle was moved up or down in the brine to dim or brighted the stage light! i yahoo search the info once and found it interesting and dangerous. i think the were also called "brine tank dimmers" Bill At 18:59 -0500 4/26/11, ard wrote: >If you are really crazy, use containers of salt water with suitable >electrodes in them :-). Just don't knock them over and spill the liquid >into the machine under test. ...and do work in a ventilated area. The bubbles evolving off the salt water will be, er, flammable, yes? Did this with the kids, 12V supply = jump cables from my car, foil "electrodes" in salt water, inverted test tube on a long holder, and a candle to verify the type of gas (used the holder to move the tube over the candle). Lucked out and collected the Hydrogen on the first try (well, it wasn't really luck. The electrode with twice as many bubbles had to be the H2.) They were suitably impressed. I was impressed how fast the aluminum foil went away (into solution). -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ------------------------------------------------------------------- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 28 00:11:41 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 22:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Salt Water Dummy loads In-Reply-To: <305963.18033.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <305963.18033.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2011, Bill Allen Jr wrote: > Salt Water load devices were not used just for dummy loads. > > in the very days of live theatere (think Vaudville) the first electric > light dimmers were square wooden boxes filled a water based brine with > the electrodes fitted to a wood handle. > > the handle was moved up or down in the brine to dim or brighted the > stage light! > > i yahoo search the info once and found it interesting and dangerous. > > i think the were also called "brine tank dimmers" "salt water dimmer" seems to be the more common term according to Google. The term "piss pot" shows up too. Sadly, I can't seem to find any pictures of these devices. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From fryers at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 00:17:55 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:17:55 +0800 Subject: Salt Water Dummy loads In-Reply-To: References: <305963.18033.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 28 April 2011 13:11, David Griffith wrote: [brine tank / salt water dimmers] > "salt water dimmer" seems to be the more common term according to Google. > The term "piss pot" shows up too. ?Sadly, I can't seem to find any pictures > of these devices. I also had to do some googling. I could only find one picture: http://www.theatrestrust.org.uk/resources/images/show/7075-salt-water-dimmer-at-the-alexandra-palace-theatre Most of the vaguely interesting hits I read seem to come from two (or three) separate sources (one is wikipedia). Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 28 00:39:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 22:39:41 -0700 Subject: Salt Water Dummy loads In-Reply-To: References: <305963.18033.qm@web30507.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4DB89B2D.31580.31BD594@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2011 at 22:11, David Griffith wrote: > "salt water dimmer" seems to be the more common term according to > Google. The term "piss pot" shows up too. Sadly, I can't seem to find > any pictures of these devices. Try looking for "liquid rheostat" or "water rheostat". They're still used for starting large motors and have power ratings of 300KW to 1MW as far as I can tell. I've got a plating manual from the 1990s that describes using a water rheostat to regulate plating current. If you think about it, they make a lot of sense--you can use a pump to move the liquid around for cooling, instead of using a liqud to transfer heat from a solid resistance element. --Chuck From james at machineroom.info Wed Apr 27 03:32:55 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 09:32:55 +0100 Subject: Can someone identify this IC "header"? In-Reply-To: <4DB4EE9D.6000904@jbrain.com> References: <4DB4EE9D.6000904@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4DB7D4B7.3000207@machineroom.info> On 25/04/2011 04:46, Jim Brain wrote: > http://postimage.org/image/5eptoxvo/ > > It appears to be header pins attached to some thin plastic "carrier". > I would like to source more of them. > > Jim > I note it has a patent ref number. Have you tried researching that for any clues? or is it literally a plastic carrier, i.e. no logic? James From jonas at otter.se Wed Apr 27 03:58:06 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 10:58:06 +0200 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) Message-ID: <2c57594bfa1d9491e4f6d7432865ef7c@otter.se> > > > > The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I > > > > expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very > steep > > > > resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). > > > > HP remembered this. > Indeed they did. In the Mdoel 200 Audio Oscillator for one thing ;-) > > I am sure it's mentioned in one of Fred Terman's books too, not > suprisingly... > > -tony IIRC using a light bulb is a/the classic way of stabilising the amplitude of an audio oscillator. I have seen it in several designs. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Wed Apr 27 04:02:42 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 11:02:42 +0200 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) Message-ID: > Or vary the spacing between the electrodes or the depth that they're > immesed in the brine. > > Seriosuly, such things have been used, and while they're better on AC > than DC (due to electrolytic effects), they can be used as PSU dummy > loads. But solid resistors (be they commercial wirewound ones, > lengths of > resistance wirte taken from old electric heaters, or filament bulbs) > are > a lot easier to handle. > > -tony This sounds a bit risky to me. Passing a current through brine would generate hydrogen and oxygen gas AFAIK, as well as possibly chlorine gas. It sounds like an explosion waiting to happen, unless you have adequate ventilation. Not the sort of thing I would want on a workbench. /Jonas From tingox at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 13:36:32 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 20:36:32 +0200 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <20110427144145.GA5890@thangorodrim.de> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB82366.4020304@bitsavers.org> <20110427144145.GA5890@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: Hi, On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > FreeBSD has ZFS support which is supposed to be good, but I haven't looked > too closely at it. I've been using ZFS on FreeBSD 8.1 / 8.2 for about a year now (as a fileserver) (I have used FreeBSD as my main os since the days of FreeBSD 3.x) and I find that zfs (on FreeBSD) is: - stable (rock solid) - easy to learn - easy to work with I haven't done much performance testing, but for my use performance is more than good enough. Recommended. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 18:54:20 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 19:54:20 -0400 Subject: Older PDP-8 repair (was Re: new here) Message-ID: > From:?Ethan Dicks > Did you have to do any work on that -8/S? ?I have one that needs a lot > of replacement bulbs and some sleuthing in the "lock" circuit (the > switch is fine, but the machine behaves as if it's always in "lock" > mode). We (RICM) were very lucky with this donated machine, and everything works. The main power supply lasted about one hour after reforming the caps. We actually had a brand-new 40 year old spare power supply for a replacement. We had to clean the switches, but they generally work OK. All of the bulbs worked, but one is bright. I have been told that we will break bulbs trying to replace the bright one so we will leave it alone. The system ran for about another 5 hours before the power supply for the PT08, PC01, PC02, and PC03 suffered the same fate and shorted the cap in the ferroresonant circuit. New caps from eBay fixed it. I am interested in corresponding with PDP-8/S owners. There doesn't seem to be very many of these slowpokes in existance. -- Michael Thompson From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 28 01:25:17 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:25:17 +0200 Subject: Older PDP-8 repair (was Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110428062517.GA20490@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 07:54:20PM -0400, Michael Thompson wrote: > I am interested in corresponding with PDP-8/S owners. There doesn't > seem to be very many of these slowpokes in existance. About one thousand made according to: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8/section-6.html The only one I know of is in museum storage at Tekniska in stockholm. Regards, Pontus From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Apr 28 02:25:30 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 00:25:30 -0700 Subject: Old Ics... Message-ID: Just got a bunch of IC?s from ?buy it all and I?ll throw in some connectors and other stuff? lot :) have a lot of 82-84 date code chips, and some that I personally think are kind of cool, like Signetics chips in Signetics labeled anti-static sleeves :) Although I have no idea what I?m going to do with well over a hundred 74ls164?s Got a bunch of 74S logic and some oddball chips like Mostek DTMF encoder chips, some DIP-14 or 16 Voltage regulators... A definite odd lot. Some of these are being a pain to ID from part #?s, namely the TRW SIP resistor networks, and some from a couple other manufacturers that don?t seem to exist anymore nor have I had any luck finding datasheets for... Multimeter time to ID which type of resistor array they are I guess.... Also some programmed (I presume) 68HC705 microcontrollers and some 40 pin chips from Ztec I think it was, they are upstairs and I?m downstairs. From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Apr 28 05:12:27 2011 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:12:27 +0100 Subject: Our very own John is famous Message-ID: <4DB93D8B.10804@mac.com> A link to the BBC website.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13201254 roger From ceby2 at csc.com Thu Apr 28 05:27:48 2011 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:27:48 +0100 Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dave, It's a 9221, currently unracked... but damned if I can remember the exact model. I will have to crawl back to the furthest reaches of the spare bedroom/boxroom to find out one of these days. It was either the entry level or one level up from the bottom. 120 or 130 I think. Thanks, Colin Eby From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Thu Apr 28 05:13:49 2011 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 03:13:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FIGnition - a retro 8-bit computer Message-ID: <879956.93643.qm@web120206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Hi folks, Some of you might find FIGnition interesting, it's a retro 8-bit style computer which can be built easily. It's recently been featured on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13201254 It's also available from: https://sites.google.com/site/libby8dev/fignition -cheers from julz From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 28 09:28:56 2011 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 10:28:56 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB8DDDF.1040206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <745269.26549.qm@smtp106.sbc.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> On Wed, 27 Apr 2011 23:24:15 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >and a resistive voltage divider after the capacitor that generates a PWM control voltage The resistive voltage divider you refer to, is a resistive load across the capacitor, it is the R of the RC circuit. Its R must be low enough to draw enough current to produces a measureable voltage drop for the PCM logic to see. It sound like in your design, sufficent load to bleed the excess VCC of of the cap. Sometimes but not always, the internal resistive voltage divider you refer to, provides the mininum load necesssary for the Cap to bleed back down from the peak source voltage to the desired target voltage between pulses. It is this bleed down or load across the Cap, countered by the recharging pulse that preforms the regulation. But often it is not enough load and an additional external load is required to acheve stable regulation. As I said, capacitive reactance may come into play, if the cap is big enough (or bad), internal resistance may provide enough leakdown/bleedoff but I would not bet on it. Is it not bad caps we are looking for ? I did not want to start something here, but one cant get away from Ohms law, it says I=E/R or otherwise stated as E=I*R if you prefer. With infinate R (no load) there is no I, with no I and there is no drop in E, and with no drop in E and there is no regulation! With No load at all and the Cap charges nearly to the full source voltage on the first few pulses (depending on size of the cap) and never bleeds back down to the target level if there is 0 current flow. To put this back on subject, dummy loads do not need to be large to test voltage regulation. Although a well designed or controlable load will allow you to test voltage regulation at any desired current limit. Back under my rock The other Bob From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Apr 28 09:32:15 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:32:15 +0100 Subject: FIGnition - a retro 8-bit computer In-Reply-To: <879956.93643.qm@web120206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <879956.93643.qm@web120206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DB97A6F.8080801@philpem.me.uk> On 28/04/11 11:13, Julian Skidmore wrote: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13201254 Love the quote from John Honniball -- > "Half of the stuff here is to frighten the circuit boards into working," said Mr Honniball. "They know the treatment they it will get if they do not work properly." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 28 10:21:40 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:21:40 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB8DABC.7080608@neurotica.com> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB82366.4020304@bitsavers.org> <20110427144145.GA5890@thangorodrim.de> <4DB8DABC.7080608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB98604.3090705@bitsavers.org> On 4/27/11 8:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > From the Linux side, I've tried it, but it is (or at least was, I haven't looked at it in about a year) done through the userspace driver, > which makes it slower than pissing tar. http://zfsonlinux.org/ is a kernel port done at Livermore From shumaker at att.net Thu Apr 28 10:32:08 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steven shumaker) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 08:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: salt water dimmer Message-ID: <349219.94197.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> here are some images: see page 3: http://lordarbus.com/THEA148/6_Dimming_Color_Theory.pdf http://webferret.search.com/click?wf6,saltwater+dimmer,,www.theatrestrust.org.uk%2Fresources%2Fimages%2Fshow%2F7075-salt-water-dimmer-at-the-alexandra-palace-theatre,,msn,1 steve From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Apr 28 10:14:30 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 10:14:30 -0500 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 4/27/11, Chuck wrote: >In the same vein, have you ever fooled with liquid rectifiers? The >anode is aluminum; the cathode is usually lead in a soluton of sodium >bicarbonate. Have not tried it. Not crazy about fooling around with lead in general, but I might do it some time, depending on how interested in chemistry they get. Thanks for the suggestion! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Apr 28 10:38:40 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 10:38:40 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 18:09 -0500 4/27/11, ard wrote: >[1] I am not one of those. I have no qualifications in electronics or >computing. I think it would be fair to insert the word "formal". >You mean you don;'t have a bench supply??? Well, I have some orphaned in-line or wall-wart supplies intended for computers, radios, etc. that I could chop the connectors off of. But I figured the jump cables could put out more current. >H2 normally comes off at the -ve electorde too... Yes, and I do know which jump cable is negative. So I guess I shouldn't claim I was "lucky". But I was pretty prepared to be wrong, on the whole. Chemistry puzzles me. >It's not uncommon to get Cl2 at the positive electrode. Another reason to >do it in a well-ventilated area. True! I forgot about that. The chemistry book we were looking at said at a more concentrated solution of salt was more likely to produce Cl2. That was a pretty simple mnemonic for me to remember, so I didn't use much salt. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 28 11:21:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 09:21:33 -0700 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4DB9319D.28437.420A40@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2011 at 10:14, Mark Tapley wrote: > Have not tried it. Not crazy about fooling around with lead in > general, but I might do it some time, depending on how interested in > chemistry they get. Thanks for the suggestion! -- Lead isn't necessary--it's been used historically because it's not affected by the bicarbonate solution. But you can use stainless steel, carbon, whatever non-reactive substance you might have on hand. I've found it interesting that folks don't balk at having a roof flashed with lead or a stained-glass window that uses lead canes in their church, but get nervous if they come within an arm's length of the stuff. Absent strong acids, metallic lead is comparatively safe. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 28 12:31:19 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:31:19 -0600 Subject: FIGnition - a retro 8-bit computer In-Reply-To: <879956.93643.qm@web120206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <879956.93643.qm@web120206.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DB9A467.5090805@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/28/2011 4:13 AM, Julian Skidmore wrote: > Hi folks, > > Some of you might find FIGnition interesting, it's a retro 8-bit style computer which can be > built easily. It's recently been featured on the BBC: > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13201254 > > It's also available from: > > https://sites.google.com/site/libby8dev/fignition > > -cheers from julz Arg!!! Another TV , chickets keyboard computer from the UK. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 13:06:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:06:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <4DB821D3.11795.141CFCA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 27, 11 02:01:55 pm Message-ID: > > On 27 Apr 2011 at 20:58, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The Nodon valve? I've read about them, never had the urge to kmake > > one. I thought hte electrolyte was more commonly ammonium phosphat, or > > at least I think that's what the book I've read reocmmends. > > A wide range of electrolytes can be used.. Sodium phosphate, > carbonate, bicarbonate, ammonium sulfate, etc. In the US, > bicarbonate of soda was most frequently employed by amateurs because > it was cheap and easy to obtain. A book entitled 'small AC transformers' [1] gives the following instructions for making chemical rectifiers. "The satisfactory operation of this type of rectifier largely depends on the condiiton of the electrolyte., and in its preparation the following directions should be attended to. Make a saturated solution of commercial phospate of ammonia in warm water , stiring thoroughly until disolved, and when cold test with a slip of blue litmus paper. Probably it will be found to be strongly acid and the paper will turn red. Drop in a little liquid ammonia, stirring well until the precipuiate it forms is again disolved, and take another litmus test. When the paper ceases to redden the acid will bave been neutralised and the solution ready for use. Fill each jar two-thirds full and then float half an inch of paraffin oil on top of the solution. This prevents evaporation and creepage of the salds. In course fo time the soltion will become acid again and then requires neutralising with ammonia as before. Set up in this way the chemical rectifier will give exceedingly good service; without these precaustions it is a messy appliance and likely to earn a bad name for itself. Keep it as cool as possible since the rectifying action falls off as the temperature rises' That's for a rectifier with aluminium and lead electrodes, BTW [1] YEs, I know all staticve transformers only work on AC. At the time this book was written, the term 'DC transformer' was used for a motor-generator set. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 13:07:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:07:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at Apr 27, 11 04:31:37 pm Message-ID: > also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg I think many of us would feel right at home at that workbench ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 13:18:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:18:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <068801cc052a$1059fd00$310df700$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 27, 11 11:25:43 pm Message-ID: > > > Interesting you should mention the PDP11. The PSU I need to test is > > > from a PDP11/24, it is a H7140. I think it is Switched Mode, but it is > > > pretty heavy > > > > How do I put this... You've been thrown in the deep end :-) > > > > Am I correct that your 11/24 is in the 10.5" (6U) box? Boards going in > > vertically from the top? If so, it is the PSU I am thinking of. I came > across it > > in the 11/44, and it's one of the most complciatred PSUs you are likely to > > come across. > > > Yes, this is an exact description of what I have. Right... I have an 11/44 that uses this supply, and I did repair it without getting electrocuted. In my case the problem was a high ESR smoothing capacitor on the 36V line which caused that supply to shut down (thus removing the memroy supplies and the cooling fans. [Mains smoothing capacitors] # > I saw those capacitors and realized I need to steer well clear of them after > power has been applied. Worse than that they can store significant amounts of energy after the mains has been unplugged. Yes, there are bleeder reissotrs, but I am not about to trust my health to soemthing like that ;-). The offiical procedure is to uinplug the mains, wait 5 minutes, rmeove th ecovers and then measure the voltage between the red and black wires on the 2-wire barrier strips. If it's more than a few volts, find some way of safely discharging those capacitors beofre handling anything. I will admit I didn't always 'wait 5 minutes'. The thing should discharge a lot quicker than that. And I would run it with the covers off too. But after disconnectig the mains, I alwaysed checked that voltage before handling anything, pulling boards, etc. > Thanks for the warning. I find PSUs worrying at the best of times, even > before your warning this one already scares me rather more, which is why I > am trying to do things more correctly than usual. As I said, this one is nicer than some in that a lot of the control circuitry is not directly conencted ot the mains. So you can work on that wihtout too much danger. But there is a lot of live circuitry in there. If you need to repair it, I am happy to help. > I found three types of connector from the PSU to the rest of the machine. > There are six 15-pin connectors (5 rows of 3 pins), with only three Those are the stnadard DEC backplane power conenctors. You cna check voltages and attach dummy loads t those. > connectors actually connected. Then there are two connectors I don't know > how to describe but are each a single row of about 10 or so pins, the I thought there ws at least one ribbon cable connecotr that goes ot the frontpanel keyswitch. At least on the 11/44 said switch can turn on the memroy supply only, for example, > connector is very like the ones you find on a MicroVAX II power supply if > you have seen one of those.. Finally there were two wires with spade > connectors on them which connected to a couple of tabs on the PSU. I am pretty sure those are the power to the cooling fans (all 3 fans are wired in parallel, BTW. Do nto short either of those to ground or you will blow some transsitors in the H-bridge circuit on the PSU control board. Don't ask how I know that :-) The fans, BTW, are spceical. But fortunately the on;y special part ios the motor windigns, really. You can use bits of other fans of the same make to fixe them. I know I had to rpelace the bearings in one of mine, which wasn;t too difficult. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 13:22:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:22:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads In-Reply-To: <4DB8D676.60900@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 27, 11 10:52:38 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/27/11 2:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I have two Model 200s. I will restore them to museum-quality (both > >> aesthetically and functionally) when I get my new workspace. > > > > Nice! It's an insturment I'd like to own, and they're nto rare (or even > > that expensive) on E-bay, but I think shipping one across the Pond might > > be a problem. One day perhaps.... > > Beware, I've never seen one in good condition. The crinkle-finish That adds to the fun :-). I am interested in this unit for its historical significance, I have n AF signal gneraotr, and anyway it's not an instruemtn I have too much real use for. I would probably repaint one f I owned it, but it wou;d be top priority, Getting the electroncs back to rights (meaming as close to origianl as I can), would be. > paint is always flaking off. :-( I think they're worth owning, though, > for their history. It's a great design that really withstood the test > of time. Indeed it did. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 13:25:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:25:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Old Ics... In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Apr 28, 11 00:25:30 am Message-ID: > Although I have no idea what I=B9m going to do with well over a hundred > 74ls164=B9s=20 8 bit shift regisrers? Why not make soem kind of bit-serial machine. You've got enoguh there to have some quite long registers/accumulators. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 13:32:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:32:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Apr 28, 11 10:38:40 am Message-ID: > > At 18:09 -0500 4/27/11, ard wrote: > >[1] I am not one of those. I have no qualifications in electronics or > >computing. > > I think it would be fair to insert the word "formal". What is an 'informal qualification'? > > >You mean you don;'t have a bench supply??? > > Well, I have some orphaned in-line or wall-wart supplies intended for > computers, radios, etc. that I could chop the connectors off of. But > I figured the jump cables could put out more current. They certianly can (short-circuit current from a car battery is going to be around 1000A). And of coruse it's current you need for elecrtrolysis (putting it crudely, one electron will neutralise one unit charge on an atiom, so you need 2 electrons to liberate one molecule of H2. More current = more electroncs per unit time = faster rate of prodcuing the gas. > >It's not uncommon to get Cl2 at the positive electrode. Another reason to > >do it in a well-ventilated area. > > True! I forgot about that. The chemistry book we were looking at said > at a more concentrated solution of salt was more likely to produce > Cl2. That was a pretty simple mnemonic for me to remember, so I > didn't use much salt. Provided you work in a reasonably well ventilated areal (outside, in the garage with the door open) and use a normal-size power suource, you will not produce Cl2 at a sufficient rae to be dangerous. You may well produce enoguh to it to be able to smell it, but it won;t do any lasting damage IMHO. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 28 13:50:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:50:43 -0400 Subject: Dummy loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB9B703.4020005@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 2:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I have two Model 200s. I will restore them to museum-quality (both >>>> aesthetically and functionally) when I get my new workspace. >>> >>> Nice! It's an insturment I'd like to own, and they're nto rare (or even >>> that expensive) on E-bay, but I think shipping one across the Pond might >>> be a problem. One day perhaps.... >> >> Beware, I've never seen one in good condition. The crinkle-finish > > That adds to the fun :-). I am interested in this unit for its historical > significance, I have n AF signal gneraotr, and anyway it's not an > instruemtn I have too much real use for. Same here. I have an HP 3325A, a wonderful unit. One thing I want to do with the Model 200 is to analyze its performance with modern equipment and techniques. That has been done to death, but *I* haven't done it, and I'm interested in seeing the results directly for educational value. > I would probably repaint one f I owned it, but it wou;d be top priority, > Getting the electroncs back to rights (meaming as close to origianl as I > can), would be. If I can match the original paint color, I'll probably repaint mine as well. Ditto on the prioritization. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 28 13:51:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:51:48 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB9B744.8050506@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 2:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> [1] I am not one of those. I have no qualifications in electronics or >>> computing. >> >> I think it would be fair to insert the word "formal". > > What is an 'informal qualification'? Simple: A gang of people who know what they're talking about, asserting that YOU know what you're talking about. In my not-commonly-shared-but-still-strongly-held opinion, it's the only qualification that matters. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 28 13:53:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:53:42 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB98604.3090705@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB82366.4020304@bitsavers.org> <20110427144145.GA5890@thangorodrim.de> <4DB8DABC.7080608@neurotica.com> <4DB98604.3090705@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB9B7B6.2060604@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 11:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> From the Linux side, I've tried it, but it is (or at least was, I >> haven't looked at it in about a year) done through the userspace >> driver, which makes it slower than pissing tar. > > http://zfsonlinux.org/ is a kernel port done at Livermore In-kernel?! Fantastic! I thought the Linux world (paranoid as they are) had their panties in a bunch about the licensing issues? In any case, it seems like they've figured that out and finally done a useful ZFS port. I'm loading up a virtual machine right now to try this out on. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 28 14:10:20 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:10:20 +0100 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <068801cc052a$1059fd00$310df700$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 27, 11 11:25:43 pm Message-ID: <06ed01cc05d7$ec88d640$c59a82c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 28 April 2011 19:19 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: new here > > > > > Interesting you should mention the PDP11. The PSU I need to test > > > > is from a PDP11/24, it is a H7140. I think it is Switched Mode, > > > > but it is pretty heavy > > > > > > How do I put this... You've been thrown in the deep end :-) > > > > > > Am I correct that your 11/24 is in the 10.5" (6U) box? Boards going > > > in vertically from the top? If so, it is the PSU I am thinking of. I > > > came > > across it > > > in the 11/44, and it's one of the most complciatred PSUs you are > > > likely to come across. > > > > > > Yes, this is an exact description of what I have. > > Right... I have an 11/44 that uses this supply, and I did repair it without > getting electrocuted. In my case the problem was a high ESR smoothing > capacitor on the 36V line which caused that supply to shut down (thus > removing the memroy supplies and the cooling fans. > [Mains smoothing capacitors] > # I have just this minute attached a dummy load to one of the 5V outputs and powered it on. Using a multimeter I measured 5.4V on the 5V outputs and 15.8V on the 15V outputs. I ran it with just the fans running (forgot to disconnect them) for about 5 minutes and then switched it off. Are those voltages within tolerance do you think? They seem close enough to me to warrant putting some boards back, but I would like a second opinion before risking the boards. > > I saw those capacitors and realized I need to steer well clear of them > > after power has been applied. > > Worse than that they can store significant amounts of energy after the > mains has been unplugged. Yes, there are bleeder reissotrs, but I am not > about to trust my health to soemthing like that ;-). > > The offiical procedure is to uinplug the mains, wait 5 minutes, rmeove th > ecovers and then measure the voltage between the red and black wires on > the 2-wire barrier strips. If it's more than a few volts, find some way of > safely discharging those capacitors beofre handling anything. I am not sure what you mean by barrier strips, you mentioned them before but I could not see what you are referring to. > > I will admit I didn't always 'wait 5 minutes'. The thing should discharge a lot > quicker than that. And I would run it with the covers off too. But after > disconnectig the mains, I alwaysed checked that voltage before handling > anything, pulling boards, etc. > > Thanks for the warning. I find PSUs worrying at the best of times, > > even before your warning this one already scares me rather more, which > > is why I am trying to do things more correctly than usual. > > As I said, this one is nicer than some in that a lot of the control circuitry is > not directly conencted ot the mains. So you can work on that wihtout too > much danger. But there is a lot of live circuitry in there. > If you need to repair it, I am happy to help. > > > > I found three types of connector from the PSU to the rest of the machine. > > There are six 15-pin connectors (5 rows of 3 pins), with only three > > Those are the stnadard DEC backplane power conenctors. You cna check > voltages and attach dummy loads t those. Indeed that is what I did. > > > connectors actually connected. Then there are two connectors I don't > > know how to describe but are each a single row of about 10 or so pins, > > the > > I thought there ws at least one ribbon cable connecotr that goes ot the > frontpanel keyswitch. At least on the 11/44 said switch can turn on the > memroy supply only, for example, > > > connector is very like the ones you find on a MicroVAX II power supply > > if you have seen one of those.. Finally there were two wires with > > spade connectors on them which connected to a couple of tabs on the PSU. > > I am pretty sure those are the power to the cooling fans (all 3 fans are wired > in parallel, BTW. Do nto short either of those to ground or you will blow > some transsitors in the H-bridge circuit on the PSU control board. Don't ask > how I know that :-) > > The fans, BTW, are spceical. But fortunately the on;y special part ios the > motor windigns, really. You can use bits of other fans of the same make to > fixe them. I know I had to rpelace the bearings in one of mine, which wasn;t > too difficult. > > -tony From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 14:14:22 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:14:22 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: peeps keep telling me this On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there > > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg > > I think many of us would feel right at home at that workbench ;-) > > -tony > From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Apr 28 14:17:27 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:17:27 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> On 4/27/2011 5:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > txs for all the info boys gals > > currently nursing a concussion from a freak incident with a table so just > taking it easy > also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg Uhhh, okay. You're definitely not the most clean or the most organized, though, huh? :) Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 28 14:21:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:21:51 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> <4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DB9BE4F.1030207@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 3:17 PM, Keith M wrote: >> txs for all the info boys gals >> >> currently nursing a concussion from a freak incident with a table so just >> taking it easy >> also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg > > Uhhh, okay. > > You're definitely not the most clean or the most organized, though, huh? :) I wasn't gonna say anything.. ;) I suspect most of us are probably in the same boat, though, as far as work areas go. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 14:24:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:24:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: <4DB9B744.8050506@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 28, 11 02:51:48 pm Message-ID: > > What is an 'informal qualification'? > > Simple: A gang of people who know what they're talking about, > asserting that YOU know what you're talking about. And just hwo decides that said gang of peopole know what they are talkign about? I can see an infinite regress about to start :-) > > In my not-commonly-shared-but-still-strongly-held opinion, it's the > only qualification that matters. I will crtainly agree that it is possible to be self-taught, and that said 'traching' can go to a very high level. Just becase you haven't got a bit of paper saying you know does not beam that you know nothign about or, indeed, that yuou know less about than people with said bit of paper. [No, I am not claiming any of that applies to me...] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 14:33:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:33:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> from "Keith M" at Apr 28, 11 03:17:27 pm Message-ID: > > also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there > > http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg > > Uhhh, okay. > > You're definitely not the most clean or the most organized, though, huh? :) It's a lot tidier than my workbench, I can assure you ... Remeber 'An empty bench is a sign of an empty mind' :-) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 28 14:35:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:35:07 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB9C16B.1060502@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> What is an 'informal qualification'? >> >> Simple: A gang of people who know what they're talking about, >> asserting that YOU know what you're talking about. > > And just hwo decides that said gang of peopole know what they are talkign > about? I can see an infinite regress about to start :-) Nah, don't look at it in a suitly way. Our society works VERY VERY HARD to try to "tune out" intuitive knowledge and replace everything with so-called "facts" printed on paper. We've worked with people who have a piece of paper that asserts that they know what they're talking about, while we know that they really don't, and vice-versa. >> In my not-commonly-shared-but-still-strongly-held opinion, it's the >> only qualification that matters. > > I will crtainly agree that it is possible to be self-taught, and that > said 'traching' can go to a very high level. Just becase you haven't got > a bit of paper saying you know does not beam that you know nothign > about or, indeed, that yuou know less about than people with > said bit of paper. > > [No, I am not claiming any of that applies to me...] We are of the same opinions here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 14:31:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:31:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <06ed01cc05d7$ec88d640$c59a82c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 28, 11 08:10:20 pm Message-ID: > I have just this minute attached a dummy load to one of the 5V outputs and > powered it on. Using a multimeter I measured 5.4V on the 5V outputs and There are 2 independant 5V outputs on this supply, the logic +5V and the memory +5V. Which one did you load, and did you check both of them? > 15.8V on the 15V outputs. I ran it with just the fans running (forgot to > disconnect them) for about 5 minutes and then switched it off. Are those The fans are not a worry. The fans themselves are simple AC motors and will not be damaged by (sensible) overvoltage. The fan control electroncis might be, but that's on the PSU control board, not in the fnas themselves. so it can be repaired. > voltages within tolerance do you think? They seem close enough to me to > warrant putting some boards back, but I would like a second opinion before > risking the boards. The 5V is a little high, biut no hgih enough to do any real damage. I have no ideawhat load you used, it may well be that with more load it gets closer to 5V. I think it;s safe to try the boards and see what happens. I would re-check the PSU votlages with the boards fitted, though, in case one of the drops when mroe heavily loadesd (this can cause some diffiuclt to trace faults, well, dififuclt to trace if you don't check the PSU voltages...) > I am not sure what you mean by barrier strips, you mentioned them before but > I could not see what you are referring to. It's a type of screw terminal block .The basic construction is a plastic strup with little metal plates fixed to it. Each plate has 2 screws that you can fix wires under. There ar plastic ridges, or barries; between the plates so that odd ends of wires on one matal plate can't come into contact with an adjacent plate, hance the name. I think Farnell and RS sell them under that name, a look at either web site will give you a picture. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 28 14:43:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:43:30 -0700 Subject: Aluminum rectifiers (was Dummy Loads) In-Reply-To: <4DB9319D.28437.420A40@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4DB9319D.28437.420A40@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DB960F2.32567.FAEFED@cclist.sydex.com> I found several articles in Popular Science magazine that describe aluminum rectifiers: November, 1920: http://bit.ly/mSK9D9 September, 1933 http://bit.ly/mnJ7JX April, 1925 http://bit.ly/kuJa79 June, 1923 http://bit.ly/mRvmjc I like to read old magazine copy (particularly the advertisements) because it reinforces the idea that there's really nothing new under the sun. In 1920, there were wireless telephones, optical scanners (for text)... --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 28 14:44:58 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:44:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: <4DB9B744.8050506@neurotica.com> References: <4DB9B744.8050506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/28/11 2:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> [1] I am not one of those. I have no qualifications in electronics or >>>> computing. >>> >>> I think it would be fair to insert the word "formal". >> >> What is an 'informal qualification'? > > Simple: A gang of people who know what they're talking about, asserting > that YOU know what you're talking about. > > In my not-commonly-shared-but-still-strongly-held opinion, it's the only > qualification that matters. > +0x01. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 28 14:46:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:46:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> <4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2011, Keith M wrote: > On 4/27/2011 5:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> txs for all the info boys gals >> >> currently nursing a concussion from a freak incident with a table so just >> taking it easy >> also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg > > Uhhh, okay. > > You're definitely not the most clean or the most organized, though, huh? :) > Yeah, but I bet he knows _exactly_ where everything is. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Apr 28 14:47:18 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:47:18 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB9C446.30000@verizon.net> On 4/28/2011 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I will crtainly agree that it is possible to be self-taught, and that > said 'traching' can go to a very high level. Just becase you haven't got > a bit of paper saying you know does not beam that you know nothign > about or, indeed, that yuou know less about than people with > said bit of paper. Tony, I can usually decode your many misspellings and lysdexic-isms, but what is "traching" ? Is this supposed to be "teaching?" Or perhaps some British slang I'm not picking up on? Every time I think you couldn't possibly exceed the number of misspellings compared to your last message, you surprise me! Keith From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Apr 28 14:49:05 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:49:05 -0500 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 4/28/11, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >I've found it interesting that folks don't balk at having a roof >flashed with lead or a stained-glass window that uses lead canes in >their church, but get nervous if they come within an arm's length of >the stuff. Yup! That's me! My father-in-law is a physician and also a Civil War buff. For years he carried around a lead bullet he found on a battlefield, as a good-luck charm. He showed me one time, and I asked him what he did about the toxicity, pointing out the dark stains on his fingers from handling it. His eyes widened a little, and now it sits on his dresser. >Absent strong acids, metallic lead is comparatively safe. Yeah. But "Chemistry puzzles me" and I'm not too confident I won't inadvertently electrolyze some of the lead into solution. Nor that the kids won't do so when they try something clever out. Heavy-metal poisoning (not just lead, either) is one of those slow-acting, subtle things where you can get into a lot of trouble before you realize it. I know it's around a lot (like, the car battery I hooked up as my power supply), but ... still, I feel like minimizing exposure where I can, particularly since I don't much know what I'm doing, either chemically or biologically. Yes, I solder outside, for improved ventilation, when I solder. I'll wear the "paranoia" badge but I may not change my behavior. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 14:49:55 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:49:55 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB9C4E3.40708@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there >>> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg >> >> Uhhh, okay. >> >> You're definitely not the most clean or the most organized, though, huh? :) > > It's a lot tidier than my workbench, I can assure you ... > > Remeber 'An empty bench is a sign of an empty mind' :-) I currently don't have a workbench. I work on the floor, sitting Indian-style. Does that statement extend to, "No workbench is a sign of no mind"? :) Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 28 14:58:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:58:35 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB9C4E3.40708@gmail.com> References: <4DB9C4E3.40708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DB9C6EB.4030001@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 3:49 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> It's a lot tidier than my workbench, I can assure you ... >> >> Remeber 'An empty bench is a sign of an empty mind' :-) > > I currently don't have a workbench. I work on the floor, sitting > Indian-style. Does that statement extend to, "No workbench is a sign of > no mind"? :) Hey, I'm pretty sure "Indian style" refers to different Indians. Are you sure it's legal for you to sit that way? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 28 15:07:27 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 13:07:27 -0700 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB9B7B6.2060604@neurotica.com> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB82366.4020304@bitsavers.org> <20110427144145.GA5890@thangorodrim.de> <4DB8DABC.7080608@neurotica.com> <4DB98604.3090705@bitsavers.org> <4DB9B7B6.2060604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DB9C8FF.607@bitsavers.org> On 4/28/11 11:53 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm loading up a virtual machine right now to try this out on. > I'd be interested in hearing your reactions. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 28 15:09:56 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:09:56 +0100 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <06ed01cc05d7$ec88d640$c59a82c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 28, 11 08:10:20 pm Message-ID: <06f001cc05e0$401c9550$c055bff0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 28 April 2011 20:31 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: new here > > > I have just this minute attached a dummy load to one of the 5V outputs > > and powered it on. Using a multimeter I measured 5.4V on the 5V > > outputs and > > There are 2 independant 5V outputs on this supply, the logic +5V and the > memory +5V. Which one did you load, and did you check both of them? > I loaded one of the +5V outputs on one of the backplane connectors and tested every 5V output I could find on the backplane connectors, they were all the same voltage. I used a 6V headlamp bulb on the 5W part, so drew about 1A. I could try again to make doubly sure and perhaps load one of the other 5V outputs. Do you know off hand which output is the one for the memory so I can load that too. I have two 6V bulbs available to me now so I can load logic and memory if I know which is which. Would you recommend me using the 21W filament instead? I am not sure how much current the PSU will supply, but guess 5A should not strain it. > > 15.8V on the 15V outputs. I ran it with just the fans running (forgot > > to disconnect them) for about 5 minutes and then switched it off. Are > > those > > The fans are not a worry. The fans themselves are simple AC motors and > will not be damaged by (sensible) overvoltage. The fan control electroncis > might be, but that's on the PSU control board, not in the fnas themselves. so > it can be repaired. > > > voltages within tolerance do you think? They seem close enough to me > > to warrant putting some boards back, but I would like a second opinion > > before risking the boards. > > The 5V is a little high, biut no hgih enough to do any real damage. I have no > ideawhat load you used, it may well be that with more load it gets closer to > 5V. > > I think it;s safe to try the boards and see what happens. I would re-check the > PSU votlages with the boards fitted, though, in case one of the drops when > mroe heavily loadesd (this can cause some diffiuclt to trace faults, well, > dififuclt to trace if you don't check the PSU > voltages...) > > > I am not sure what you mean by barrier strips, you mentioned them > > before but I could not see what you are referring to. > > It's a type of screw terminal block .The basic construction is a plastic strup > with little metal plates fixed to it. Each plate has 2 screws that you can fix > wires under. There ar plastic ridges, or barries; between the plates so that > odd ends of wires on one matal plate can't come into contact with an > adjacent plate, hance the name. > > I think Farnell and RS sell them under that name, a look at either web site > will give you a picture. In that case I think I do know what you mean, it is just that there are no red wires, just black ones. > > -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 28 15:30:47 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 16:30:47 -0400 Subject: new here References: <4DB9C4E3.40708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6478DF41D0A84B479597FCB4D8DEB13A@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 3:49 PM Subject: Re: new here > Tony Duell wrote: >>>> also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there >>>> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg >>> >>> Uhhh, okay. >>> >>> You're definitely not the most clean or the most organized, though, huh? >>> :) >> >> It's a lot tidier than my workbench, I can assure you ... >> >> Remeber 'An empty bench is a sign of an empty mind' :-) > > I currently don't have a workbench. I work on the floor, sitting > Indian-style. Does that statement extend to, "No workbench is a sign of > no mind"? :) > > Peace... Sridhar I have so much stuff in the basement I setup an overhead clamp on type light over the washing machine and use that for a workbench. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 28 15:32:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 16:32:34 -0400 Subject: Data Scrubbing in archives and paranoia In-Reply-To: <4DB9C8FF.607@bitsavers.org> References: <4DB5BD74.3000204@neurotica.com> <4DB5C1D4.500@bitsavers.org> <4DB82366.4020304@bitsavers.org> <20110427144145.GA5890@thangorodrim.de> <4DB8DABC.7080608@neurotica.com> <4DB98604.3090705@bitsavers.org> <4DB9B7B6.2060604@neurotica.com> <4DB9C8FF.607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DB9CEE2.6090200@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 4:07 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I'm loading up a virtual machine right now to try this out on. > > I'd be interested in hearing your reactions. I'm currently exercising it under Ubuntu Server v10.10 (32-bit) under VMware ESXi. Installation from source code was painless and uneventful; it took about ten minutes and resulted in about half a dozen loadable modules. For my testing, I'm using a raidz1 pool made up of three 2GB virtual drives. As expected, it is much, much faster than the earlier FUSE layer implementation. Also as expected, just like under Solaris, ZFS under Linux wants lots of RAM to do its magic. Performance is reasonable, with the expected bottleneck of my three "spindles" being virtual disks on the same physical drive, which is under a pretty heavy load as it is handling half a dozen other virtual machines. So far I've only done some very basic tests like exercising basic administrative functionality and copying /usr into and out of a ZFS filesystem. It seems to work fine. All basic administrative functionality that I've tried so far: create, delete, rename, set & get attributes, all function as expected. This is a far cry from "I'd trust it in production", but so far, so good. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 28 15:34:58 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 16:34:58 -0400 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <6478DF41D0A84B479597FCB4D8DEB13A@dell8300> References: <4DB9C4E3.40708@gmail.com> <6478DF41D0A84B479597FCB4D8DEB13A@dell8300> Message-ID: <4DB9CF72.50406@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 4:30 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I have so much stuff in the basement I setup an overhead clamp on type > light over the washing machine and use that for a workbench. As it should be. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 28 16:20:47 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bench supply (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110428140440.D45421@shell.lmi.net> > At 18:09 -0500 4/27/11, ard wrote: > >[1] I am not one of those. I have no qualifications in electronics or > >computing. On Thu, 28 Apr 2011, Mark Tapley wrote: > I think it would be fair to insert the word "formal". Tony seems like an informal kinda guy! I can not imagine him wearing a tux. > >You mean you don;'t have a bench supply??? > Well, I have some orphaned in-line or wall-wart supplies intended for > computers, radios, etc. that I could chop the connectors off of. But > I figured the jump cables could put out more current. A somewhat bulky, heavy, relatively high capacity 12V supply, that has a built-in petrol powered charger, and is not only on wheels for moving it, it is self-propelled. That makes it readily movable to alternate sites, and can even be used for moving the whole thing to a petrol dispensary when the fuel supply needs to be replenished. Although the guvmint regulates transporting it under its own power, there is little or no regulation of what you can do with it while stationary. It has seats, not quite like a Cray, that are even enclosed (with windows) for inclement weather (some teenagers re-purpose it as a romantic assignation). It has a boot for storing the connecting cables, and some tools. It has a radio that can be used while working, and bright work lights on one end, although not as readily aimable as would be nice. Those worklights can also function, when removed, as an excellent dummy load. Although it could easily be modified to run on the hydrogen that it is capable of producing, unfortunately, the efficiency is too low for it to produce as much hydrogen as it would require for sustained operation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 28 16:27:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 17:27:26 -0400 Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB9DBBE.8000703@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 6:27 AM, Colin Eby wrote: > It's a 9221, currently unracked... but damned if I can remember the exact > model. I will have to crawl back to the furthest reaches of the spare > bedroom/boxroom to find out one of these days. It was either the entry > level or one level up from the bottom. 120 or 130 I think. Nice! Pics!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Apr 28 16:29:14 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 23:29:14 +0200 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: <4DB9319D.28437.420A40@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DB9319D.28437.420A40@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110428212913.GA14515@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 09:21:33AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Apr 2011 at 10:14, Mark Tapley wrote: > > > Have not tried it. Not crazy about fooling around with lead in > > general, but I might do it some time, depending on how interested in > > chemistry they get. Thanks for the suggestion! -- > > Lead isn't necessary--it's been used historically because it's not > affected by the bicarbonate solution. But you can use stainless > steel, carbon, whatever non-reactive substance you might have on > hand. > > I've found it interesting that folks don't balk at having a roof > flashed with lead or a stained-glass window that uses lead canes in > their church, but get nervous if they come within an arm's length of > the stuff. > > Absent strong acids, metallic lead is comparatively safe. Unless it travels at high velocity in your general direction ;-) SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Apr 28 16:49:11 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 16:49:11 -0500 Subject: Experience, Qualification, etc. (was: Re: Dummy loads) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 15:10 -0500 4/28/11, ard wrote: >What is an 'informal qualification'? Good question. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/qualification says: qual?i?fi?ca?tion ... -noun 1. a quality, accomplishment, etc., that fits a person for some function, office, or the like. ... (other definitions deleted, likely including ones Tony was thinking of). Rebuilding computers, tracing and publishing schematics, etc. etc. seems to me to fit you to comment and advise others doing same. I own at least one functional computer that would not be so without your advice. I'll admit there's not a degree, certification, legal requirement, etc. involved, thus my suggestion that we apply the "informal" specifier, but it looks to me like the description fits. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 17:40:24 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 17:40:24 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> <4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> Message-ID: lot cleaner right now then in that shot On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 2:17 PM, Keith M wrote: > On 4/27/2011 5:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> txs for all the info boys gals >> >> currently nursing a concussion from a freak incident with a table so just >> taking it easy >> also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg >> > > Uhhh, okay. > > You're definitely not the most clean or the most organized, though, huh? :) > > Keith > From jthecman at netscape.net Thu Apr 28 19:20:40 2011 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:20:40 -0400 Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CDD41A678EEE43-1134-2F88B@webmail-d040.sysops.aol.com> If you still it, we would like to add to our museum's collect? Zip is 77036 -----Original Message----- From: Alexey Toptygin To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Wed, Apr 27, 2011 5:53 pm Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual I've found a control Data 8528 Digital Communications Terminal Reference Manual at a book sale for $1 :-)? ? It's letter size, soft cover, about 100 pages, contains a number of schematics and is copyrighted in 1964. The 8528 appears to be a 12-bit modem that can be used over coax, microwave or leased telephone links at up to 10^5 words/sec. It comes with a telephone handset in case you want to talk to the person on the other end :-)? ? It can be yours for the cost of media mail shipping from 27606. I see that CHM has one (but no scans posted), but I don't see a copy on bitsavers, so Al gets dibs if he wants it. I can also scan it free for anyone who's interested.? ? ? Alexey? From chd at chdickman.com Thu Apr 28 21:42:17 2011 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:42:17 -0400 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion Message-ID: I need an ethernet converter between 10base2 and 100baseT. I am using a DECserver90TL as a console server. The DECserver is 10base2 ethernet, so it has a BNC connector and I use coax to connect to an ethernet hub. I was using a hub that had both 10baseT and 10base2 to connect it to my 100baseT network, but the hub has suddenly become unidirectional. A lightening strike killed a few things in my house and now I see this hub might be another. eBay only finds me two items like this. One seems over priced and the other says it is for parts only. Do I have any other options? -chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 28 21:52:33 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:52:33 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival East update Message-ID: <4DBA27F1.5000208@snarc.net> T-minus TWO WEEKS until the VCF East 7.0 .... we're up to 23 exhibitors which makes this the biggest east-coast edition ever. I've heard about people planning to attend from Denmark and Australia .... so I don't wanna hear that someone can't go because they live three states away and it's too darn far. :-) Show page is http://www.vintage.org/2011/east Facebook page is http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast7 Be there or miss the awesomeness. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 21:53:31 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:53:31 -0500 Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: References: <447021.64939.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: nice On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 5:15 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <447021.64939.qm at web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, > "Brian L. Stuart" writes: > > > Thought #4: Where did you say this warehouse was? > > Its in Salt Lake City, where I'm housing the collection of the > Computer Graphics History Museum that I'm building. > > > Thought #5: If you find one of those 4015s has been "liberated," > > it wasn't me :) > > The building has a security system :-) > > > Seriously, that's a very impressive Tek collection. > > Its for my 1970s exhibit: I want enough Tek terminals that 4-6 people > can simultaneously have a vintage hands-on experience. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From fryers at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 22:07:44 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:07:44 +0800 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, On 29 April 2011 10:42, Charles Dickman wrote: > I need an ethernet converter between 10base2 and 100baseT. > > I am using a DECserver90TL as a console server. The DECserver is 10base2 > ethernet, so it has a BNC connector and I use coax to connect to an ethernet > hub. I was using a hub that had both 10baseT and 10base2 to connect it to my > 100baseT network, but the hub has suddenly become unidirectional. A > lightening strike killed a few things in my house and now I see this hub > might be another. > > eBay only finds me two items like this. One seems over priced and the other > says it is for parts only. > > Do I have any other options? I am in the process of setting up something to do exactly the same thing, to the point where I am likely to need the boot image for the DECserver really soon now. My approach is somewhat not optimal but I'll describe it for the purposes of entertaining the people here. Amongst the collection of stuff I have includes a couple of elderly Sparc boxes. My ADSL modem/router will happily serve up files from a USB attached external disk, appearing as a windows share (or whatever the correct windows terminology is). I wish to also plug in a large HDD and make this available via NFS to the other Unix boxes I own. I am also guessing that I am going to need a MOP server for the boot image for the DECserver. So, here goes. I have an SS20 (2 x Sparc CPUS). I have recently (arrived last week) got the 100MB hme SBus card for it - which seems to work and NetBSD is able to talk to it. The SS20 has an old install of NetBSD installed on it. I am currently in the process of upgrading to 5.1 (I think) via tape (DLT) as I have a couple of DLT drives and tapes stashed away. The plan is to use the SS20 running NetBSD to convert between 100BaseT and 10BaseT. There is 10BaseT externally but I don't have any of the tranceivers with the small AUI connectors to fit the back of the SS20. The SBus ethernet card with the 10Base2 connector on it does not fit the SS20 at all well. :( So, the SS20 will be bridging ports, mounting with windows file systems and hopefully exporting the filesystem as NFS. There is some other stuff I want to run on the SS20 as well but that is for later. Some years ago, I picked up a couple of Sun IPX boxes and purchased the 64MB of RAM to max them out. The IPX houses the SBus 10Base2 Ethernet card happily and also has a real AUI socket on the back where I can use real tranceivers. The plan is to install OpenBSD on the IPX, run it as a MOP server and connect it, back to back, to the SS20 using 10BaseT. I should then be able to get the DECServer running on the 10Base2. My only concern is that I am running some infrastructure on elderly hardware. I am not running this 24x7 so I am not necessarily concerned about the efficiency. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Apr 28 22:29:07 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 23:29:07 -0400 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBA3083.10205@atarimuseum.com> That is probably going to be the easiest route, otherwise look around for an old HUB on Ebay that has a 10base2 connector on it with a bunch of 10baseT ports... LIke this, not mine: http://cgi.ebay.com/CentreCom-MR820TR-8-Port-10-BaseT-10-Base2-AUI-Hub-/220648191143?pt=COMP_EN_Hubs&hash=item335fa834a7 Otherwise yeah, just take an old PC, plop a 10base2 card and a 10baseT card into it, install NetBSD or similar and just Bridge the two networks and use the PC as a simple router. Simon Fryer wrote: > All, > > On 29 April 2011 10:42, Charles Dickman wrote: > >> I need an ethernet converter between 10base2 and 100baseT. >> >> I am using a DECserver90TL as a console server. The DECserver is 10base2 >> ethernet, so it has a BNC connector and I use coax to connect to an ethernet >> hub. I was using a hub that had both 10baseT and 10base2 to connect it to my >> 100baseT network, but the hub has suddenly become unidirectional. A >> lightening strike killed a few things in my house and now I see this hub >> might be another. >> >> eBay only finds me two items like this. One seems over priced and the other >> says it is for parts only. >> >> Do I have any other options? >> > > I am in the process of setting up something to do exactly the same > thing, to the point where I am likely to need the boot image for the > DECserver really soon now. My approach is somewhat not optimal but > I'll describe it for the purposes of entertaining the people here. > > Amongst the collection of stuff I have includes a couple of elderly > Sparc boxes. My ADSL modem/router will happily serve up files from a > USB attached external disk, appearing as a windows share (or whatever > the correct windows terminology is). I wish to also plug in a large > HDD and make this available via NFS to the other Unix boxes I own. I > am also guessing that I am going to need a MOP server for the boot > image for the DECserver. > > So, here goes. I have an SS20 (2 x Sparc CPUS). I have recently > (arrived last week) got the 100MB hme SBus card for it - which seems > to work and NetBSD is able to talk to it. The SS20 has an old install > of NetBSD installed on it. I am currently in the process of upgrading > to 5.1 (I think) via tape (DLT) as I have a couple of DLT drives and > tapes stashed away. > > The plan is to use the SS20 running NetBSD to convert between 100BaseT > and 10BaseT. There is 10BaseT externally but I don't have any of the > tranceivers with the small AUI connectors to fit the back of the SS20. > The SBus ethernet card with the 10Base2 connector on it does not fit > the SS20 at all well. :( So, the SS20 will be bridging ports, mounting > with windows file systems and hopefully exporting the filesystem as > NFS. There is some other stuff I want to run on the SS20 as well but > that is for later. > > Some years ago, I picked up a couple of Sun IPX boxes and purchased > the 64MB of RAM to max them out. The IPX houses the SBus 10Base2 > Ethernet card happily and also has a real AUI socket on the back where > I can use real tranceivers. The plan is to install OpenBSD on the IPX, > run it as a MOP server and connect it, back to back, to the SS20 using > 10BaseT. I should then be able to get the DECServer running on the > 10Base2. > > My only concern is that I am running some infrastructure on elderly > hardware. I am not running this 24x7 so I am not necessarily concerned > about the efficiency. > > Simon > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > the utility of the final product." > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 28 22:44:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:44:26 -0700 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DB9D1AA.15184.2B33F2A@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2011 at 22:42, Charles Dickman wrote: > I need an ethernet converter between 10base2 and 100baseT. On eBay, there's a vendor selling IMC MM850 transceivers/media converters for less than $10 *new* (at their peak market, they sold for almost $200). See item: 300550722049 Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 28 22:54:56 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:54:56 -0500 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: <4DB9D1AA.15184.2B33F2A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DB9D1AA.15184.2B33F2A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201104290356.p3T3txHS093253@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:44 PM 4/28/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 28 Apr 2011 at 22:42, Charles Dickman wrote: > >> I need an ethernet converter between 10base2 and 100baseT. > >On eBay, there's a vendor selling IMC MM850 transceivers/media >converters for less than $10 *new* (at their peak market, they sold >for almost $200). > >See item: 300550722049 There are several variations of MM850. Is this what you think it is? http://www.provantage.com/imc-networks-55-10230~7IMCN08W.htm McBasic TP/Fo 10MBPS Ethernet MM850-ST 4KM 10MB Copper/10MB Fiber - John From halarewich at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 23:19:41 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:19:41 -0700 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: <201104290356.p3T3txHS093253@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4DB9D1AA.15184.2B33F2A@cclist.sydex.com> <201104290356.p3T3txHS093253@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: hello this migt work for you http://ncix.com/products/?sku=49120B22&vpn=J%2FE%2DCX%2DTBT%2D02%2DNA&manufacture=TRANSITION%20NETWORKS chris On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 8:54 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 10:44 PM 4/28/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 28 Apr 2011 at 22:42, Charles Dickman wrote: > > > >> I need an ethernet converter between 10base2 and 100baseT. > > > >On eBay, there's a vendor selling IMC MM850 transceivers/media > >converters for less than $10 *new* (at their peak market, they sold > >for almost $200). > > > >See item: 300550722049 > > There are several variations of MM850. > > Is this what you think it is? > > http://www.provantage.com/imc-networks-55-10230~7IMCN08W.htm > > McBasic TP/Fo 10MBPS Ethernet MM850-ST 4KM 10MB Copper/10MB Fiber > > - John > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 28 23:28:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:28:46 -0700 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: <201104290356.p3T3txHS093253@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , <4DB9D1AA.15184.2B33F2A@cclist.sydex.com>, <201104290356.p3T3txHS093253@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4DB9DC0E.6675.2DBD1F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2011 at 22:54, John Foust wrote: > There are several variations of MM850. > > Is this what you think it is? > > http://www.provantage.com/imc-networks-55-10230~7IMCN08W.htm Stupid vendor--used the generic description for the series--from what I can see, this is the FO version. Damn. How about 380335678677 Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Apr 29 02:33:36 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 03:33:36 -0400 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion Message-ID: What you want to do, is get a few "hubs" (90's era networking equipment) that have a mix of AUI, BNC, and 10BaseT connectors, and then cable the hub up to your more modern 100BaseT and faster switches. A hub with 4 to 8 10BaseT + a BNC was a common configuration on consumer-grade stuff in the 90's, and it was on the more industrial rack-mount networking solutions too (and there you'll often get an AUI as well). I have only made small efforts searching out new-manufacture hubs with BNC's but as far as I can tell, they simply aren't being made anymore. Everything new is a switch today. Keeping a few hubs for protocol sniffing etc. is still handy. BlackBox etc. still sell new "Media Converters" with a 10Base2 on one end and a 10BaseT on the other end but the prices are heinous (e.g. $225: http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Detail.aspx/FlexPoint-10BASE-T-to-BNC-Media-Converter-10-Mbps-UTP-to-ThinNet/LMC210A ). I give them credit for still selling a networking technology that isn't the latest and greatest. Tim. From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 03:00:05 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 01:00:05 -0700 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the one I eluded to here is $84.37 Canadian http://ncix.com/products/?sku=49120B22&vpn=J%2FE%2DCX%2DTBT%2D02%2DNA&manufacture=TRANSITION%20NETWORKS chris On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > What you want to do, is get a few "hubs" (90's era networking equipment) > that have a mix of AUI, BNC, and 10BaseT connectors, and then cable the hub > up to your more modern 100BaseT and faster switches. > > A hub with 4 to 8 10BaseT + a BNC was a common configuration on > consumer-grade stuff in the 90's, and it was on the more industrial > rack-mount networking solutions too (and there you'll often get an AUI as > well). > > I have only made small efforts searching out new-manufacture hubs with > BNC's but as far as I can tell, they simply aren't being made anymore. > Everything new is a switch today. Keeping a few hubs for protocol sniffing > etc. is still handy. > > BlackBox etc. still sell new "Media Converters" with a 10Base2 on one end > and a 10BaseT on the other end but the prices are heinous (e.g. $225: > http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Detail.aspx/FlexPoint-10BASE-T-to-BNC-Media-Converter-10-Mbps-UTP-to-ThinNet/LMC210A). I give them credit for still selling a networking technology that isn't > the latest and greatest. > > Tim. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 29 03:11:05 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 09:11:05 +0100 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <06f001cc05e0$401c9550$c055bff0$@ntlworld.com> References: <06ed01cc05d7$ec88d640$c59a82c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 28, 11 08:10:20 pm <06f001cc05e0$401c9550$c055bff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001c01cc0645$008f8ea0$01aeabe0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 28 April 2011 21:10 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: new here > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 28 April 2011 20:31 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: new here > > > > > I have just this minute attached a dummy load to one of the 5V > > > outputs and powered it on. Using a multimeter I measured 5.4V on the > > > 5V outputs and > > > > There are 2 independant 5V outputs on this supply, the logic +5V and > > the memory +5V. Which one did you load, and did you check both of them? > > > > I loaded one of the +5V outputs on one of the backplane connectors and > tested every 5V output I could find on the backplane connectors, they were > all the same voltage. I used a 6V headlamp bulb on the 5W part, so drew > about 1A. I could try again to make doubly sure and perhaps load one of the > other 5V outputs. Do you know off hand which output is the one for the > memory so I can load that too. I have two 6V bulbs available to me now so I > can load logic and memory if I know which is which. Would you recommend > me using the 21W filament instead? I am not sure how much current the > PSU will supply, but guess 5A should not strain it. I just tried again this morning and got some different results, which concerns me. This time I connected the 6V 21W bulb and I measured 5.7V and 16.8V on the 5V and 15V outputs, yesterday they were 5.4 and 15.8 respectively. I also noticed that the DC ON light did not come on, but I *think* yesterday it did come on. I did inadvertently power on the machine without any load for a few seconds yesterday, not sure if this has done some damage. I tested again with the 5W bulb just to see if it made a difference but it didn't. The bulb was connected to the 5V outputs that go to the backplane. There does not seem to be a difference between the 5V for memory and logic, all the 5V outputs from the two connectors at the right of the PSU (labelled P2 and P4 on the plugs) go to the same connection point on the backplane. > > > > > > > 15.8V on the 15V outputs. I ran it with just the fans running > > > (forgot to disconnect them) for about 5 minutes and then switched it > > > off. Are those > > > > The fans are not a worry. The fans themselves are simple AC motors and > > will not be damaged by (sensible) overvoltage. The fan control > > electroncis might be, but that's on the PSU control board, not in the fnas > themselves. > so > > it can be repaired. > > > > > voltages within tolerance do you think? They seem close enough to me > > > to warrant putting some boards back, but I would like a second > > > opinion before risking the boards. > > > > The 5V is a little high, biut no hgih enough to do any real damage. I > > have > no > > ideawhat load you used, it may well be that with more load it gets > > closer > to > > 5V. > > > > I think it;s safe to try the boards and see what happens. I would > > re-check > the > > PSU votlages with the boards fitted, though, in case one of the drops > > when mroe heavily loadesd (this can cause some diffiuclt to trace > > faults, well, dififuclt to trace if you don't check the PSU > > voltages...) > > > > > I am not sure what you mean by barrier strips, you mentioned them > > > before but I could not see what you are referring to. > > > > It's a type of screw terminal block .The basic construction is a > > plastic > strup > > with little metal plates fixed to it. Each plate has 2 screws that you > > can > fix > > wires under. There ar plastic ridges, or barries; between the plates > > so > that > > odd ends of wires on one matal plate can't come into contact with an > > adjacent plate, hance the name. > > > > I think Farnell and RS sell them under that name, a look at either web > site > > will give you a picture. > > In that case I think I do know what you mean, it is just that there are no red > wires, just black ones. > > > > > -tony Regards Rob From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 10:36:32 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:36:32 -0400 Subject: DLV11-J RS-232 Cable Message-ID: Hello all, I'm looking for a bit of help in wiring up a cable for my DLV11-J. I can understand the wiring for the BC21B-05 cable transmit, reciever and ground lines, however I'm rather confused by the rest of the wiring on the cable. If possible would someone be able to explain the wiring for the cable? I've attached the relevant pages from the 1983 QBUS Interfaces manual. Thanks in advance for any help. Cheers, C. M. Gauger-Cosgrove From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Thu Apr 28 15:57:40 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 16:57:40 -0400 Subject: DLV11-J RS-232 Cable Message-ID: <4DB99C84020000E40001E188@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> The DLV11-J has a ten-pin connector. To use with RS-232, simply use pin 2 as ground, pin 3 as TxD, and pin 8 as RxD. It is also necessary to jumper pin 7 to pin 9. The reason for the jumper: the receive input of the DLV11 is differential: it could work with RS-422 as well as RS-232. RS-422 uses two wires for Tx and two for Rx and these are differential ... it is the polarity of the lines relative to each other that sets the bit (whether it is a one or a zero). These "twisted pair" signals are very immune to noise and are used industrially for long runs. I was always taught that anything over 20 feet should _not_ be RS-232 but a differential standard instead. Anyway, grounding the "minus" differential receive input makes the "plus" differential receive input single-ended so that it is now referenced to ground: a voltage on that pin "positive" with respect to ground is a zero while a voltage which is "negative" is a one. This is the EIA standard used for RS-232 ... it is bipolar (i.e. the voltage can swing negative or positive with respect to ground). So, for a small system where the terminal is close, RS-232 works fine and a simple cable will suffice. Where a system is large and terminals are placed a fair distance from the machine, RS-422 should be used. Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Thu Apr 28 19:59:38 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:59:38 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... Message-ID: <4DB9D53A020000E40001E19B@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> In the ongoing saga of my attempt to get RT-11 to run on my 11/34 .... (I'll spare the bandwidth by not attaching the entire chain of experiments run ...) Checked my copy of RT-11 and indeed it was SYSGEN'd. In my latest attempt, I did a SYSGEN as well, this time choosing to build a very, very basic version of RT-11SJ on RX-01. No FPU support, no timers, nothing fancy. Added device support for TT, DX, and DU devices only (the 11/34 has no installed DU device at all, I wanted to add it for future consideration). As expected, it went off for over a half-hour rebuilding RT-11. Produced the expected files and I proceeded to make the disk bootable. It boots on the LSI-11 system (an 11/73A) just fine. Put that same RX-01 disk on my 11/34 via an M7846 controller and when I tried to boot it I get the exact same result as before: it starts to boot, steps four tracks or so, then halts at "005134" on the display. If I inspect that address, it contains "140000". Sigghhhhh. Any thoughts as to what it could be? Disk controller card (M7846)? Summary: Since I've first written in with the problem I think we've eliminated as possible issues: * Memory since I had previously tried three memory cards all with the same result * Basic CPU hardware (slot C and D jumpering, Unibus termination) * RT-11 version 5 (which appears to run on other Unibus PDP 11/34s) Corrected a few small bugs along the way (like the complete lack of a terminator at one end of the Unibus). The CPU runs small programs, entered via the front panel, just fine (e.g. a ten line program to echo terminal characters). Just asking for ideas on where to go next! Anything else I should be checking? Thanks .... Mark Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 20:30:31 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 21:30:31 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP-8/S Owners Message-ID: > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 07:54:20PM -0400, Michael Thompson wrote: >> I am interested in corresponding with PDP-8/S owners. There doesn't >> seem to be very many of these slowpokes in existance. > > About one thousand made according to: > > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8/section-6.html > > The only one I know of is in museum storage at Tekniska in stockholm. > > Regards, > Pontus So far: Rhode Island Computer Museum S/N 517, running, PT08B, PC01, PC02, PC03 https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/pdp-8s Goodwill Computer Museum Nicely restored and running on display http://www.austincomputerworks.org/museum/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyohm/5334436698/ Ethan Dicks Needs restoration Tekniska museet in stockholm Desktop version http://www.tekniskamuseet.se/download/18.689e694f125720d4ec480001504/Datorer+p%C3%A5+TM.pdf Computermuseum der Fakult?t Informatik Running, designing a Teletype interface http://pdp-8.de/ Living Computer Museum Two, unrestored http://www.pdpplanet.com Computer History Museum One, static display http://www.computerhistory.org -- Michael Thompson From vintagecoder at aol.com Fri Apr 29 05:02:24 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:02:24 +0000 Subject: Tektronix photos updated Message-ID: <201104291002.p3T9vruG003401@omr-m32.mx.aol.com> > With the addition of two more Tektronix 4015-1 terminals, I've rearranged > my Tektronix storage tube terminals in the warehouse and uploaded some > updated pictures of "Tektronix storage tube row". (The 4015-1 is > essentially a 4014 with APL and printer interface options.) Neither of > the 4015's are reported to be in working condition from the seller, but > at least all the keycaps with APL glyphs are present. The 4010 and 4014 > are relatively simple terminals, so I should be able to restore them to > working order. They have no microprocessor, firmware code or custom > ASICs, so repairing them should be a matter of replacing capacitors or > replacing TTL or analog parts. Richard, I finally got around to looking at your pics. What a great find! I wonder if the MCAUTO label on your keyboard means McDonnell Douglas Automation. I had a friend who worked there in the 1970s and they called the DP (IT) shop McAuto. It was a huge place in Long Beach CA that handled all the data processing for the aircraft company. Lots of interesting stories. Congrats on your terminals! I personally would love to have a 4051, does anybody remember those? Hi-res green phosphor screens were made for graphics programming and came with their own dialect of BASIC. They were one piece units on heavy stands and had tape drives built into the console. Those were the days! Now to find some old pallets, a few hundred bucks, a forklift, and a place to store one..... From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 29 05:18:04 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:18:04 +0200 Subject: Looking for PDP-8/S Owners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110429101804.GA21646@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 09:30:31PM -0400, Michael Thompson wrote: > So far: > Rhode Island Computer Museum > S/N 517, running, PT08B, PC01, PC02, PC03 > https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/pdp-8s > > Goodwill Computer Museum > Nicely restored and running on display > http://www.austincomputerworks.org/museum/index.html > http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyohm/5334436698/ > > Ethan Dicks > Needs restoration > > Tekniska museet in stockholm > Desktop version > http://www.tekniskamuseet.se/download/18.689e694f125720d4ec480001504/Datorer+p%C3%A5+TM.pdf > > Computermuseum der Fakult?t Informatik > Running, designing a Teletype interface > http://pdp-8.de/ > > Living Computer Museum > Two, unrestored > http://www.pdpplanet.com > > Computer History Museum > One, static display > http://www.computerhistory.org > -- > Michael Thompson You also have the one described by Mike. It is not his though and might be one of the above. There is also some links there to others. http://www.corestore.org/8s.htm /P From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 29 07:02:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 08:02:17 -0400 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBAA8C9.1090100@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 11:07 PM, Simon Fryer wrote: > My only concern is that I am running some infrastructure on elderly > hardware. I am not running this 24x7 so I am not necessarily concerned > about the efficiency. If you're talking about the SS20 and IPX machines here, don't worry about that, as they're both recent enough to be very power-efficient. The IPX in particular pulls very little power. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 29 07:03:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 08:03:57 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4DB9D53A020000E40001E19B@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> References: <4DB9D53A020000E40001E19B@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Message-ID: <4DBAA92D.9060409@neurotica.com> On 4/28/11 8:59 PM, Mark Csele wrote: ... > As expected, it went off for over a half-hour rebuilding RT-11. > Produced the expected files and I proceeded to make the disk > bootable. It boots on the LSI-11 system (an 11/73A) just fine. Put > that same RX-01 disk on my 11/34 via an M7846 controller and when I > tried to boot it I get the exact same result as before: it starts to > boot, steps four tracks or so, then halts at "005134" on the display. > If I inspect that address, it contains "140000". ... > Just asking for ideas on where to go next! Anything else I should be > checking? If I were you, my next step would be to run a full battery of tests, focusing on the CPU, via XXDP. Do you have the ability to make a bootable XXDP disk? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 29 07:24:24 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 05:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: <201104291002.p3T9vruG003401@omr-m32.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <749618.2979.qm@web121620.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 4/29/11, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I personally would love to have a 4051, does anybody > remember those? Hi-res > green phosphor screens were made for graphics programming > and came with > their own dialect of BASIC. They were one piece units on > heavy stands and > had tape drives built into the console. Those were the > days! Yeah, I've got one. Mine has no stand - unlike the 4010, the electronics for the 4051 are in the unit itself, not in the stand. It's really not a big device at all - very deep, but not so big that it won't fit on a desk. Of course, the 4051 I have (as with most, I would assume), has a faulty tape drive because the rubber driver wheel is shot. The built in BASIC is pretty cool, and the graphic routines are fun to play with, but without the ability to save programs, it's kind of annoying. What I really want to find is a 4010/4014 terminal. That way, I have a lot more programming flexibility. Anyone got one on this coast? :) Similarly, if anyone has a wrecked 4051 or parts, mine is missing both the shift keys and the Enter keys. I have no idea why, and I've seen another Tek storage tube device, many years later, missing exactly the same keys. Was there some kind of shift key recall or something? -Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 29 07:24:25 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 07:24:25 -0500 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201104291224.p3TCOQnI008331@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:33 AM 4/29/2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >I have only made small efforts searching out new-manufacture hubs with BNC's but as far as I can tell, they simply aren't being made anymore. Everything new is a switch today. Keeping a few hubs for protocol sniffing etc. is still handy. Although I still keep a little 5-port 10/100 true hub in my larger to-go bag just in case, all business-class switches these days are "managed" and would allow you to reprogram a particular port to mirror all traffic for sniffing purposes. There are many managed 24-port switches in the sub-$200 range. Netgear makes a managed 8-port 10/100/1000 switch that CDW sells for $105. - John From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 07:53:07 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 08:53:07 -0400 Subject: Dummy loads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBAB4B3.4080705@gmail.com> Mark Tapley wrote: > At 18:59 -0500 4/26/11, ard wrote: >> If you are really crazy, use containers of salt water with suitable >> electrodes in them :-). Just don't knock them over and spill the liquid >> into the machine under test. > > ...and do work in a ventilated area. The bubbles evolving off the salt > water will be, er, flammable, yes? Yes, but the quantities involved are absolutely tiny. Unless you're using giant buckets of water, it shouldn't be a problem. Peace... Sridhar From vintagecoder at aol.com Fri Apr 29 08:12:29 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 13:12:29 +0000 Subject: Tektronix photos updated Message-ID: <201104291312.p3TDCXKu011528@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> > Yeah, I've got one. Mine has no stand - unlike the 4010, the electronics > for the 4051 are in the unit itself, not in the stand. It's really not a > big device at all - very deep, but not so big that it won't fit on a > desk. Of course, the 4051 I have (as with most, I would assume), has a > faulty tape drive because the rubber driver wheel is shot. The built in > BASIC is pretty cool, and the graphic routines are fun to play with, but > without the ability to save programs, it's kind of annoying. That's interesting. It's been about 30 years but I distinctly remember the 4051s I used sitting on really heavy duty stands, either bolted together or I thought, made that way. I remember moving one across the room (with help), it weighed a ton. Must have been the steel stand. I hope you can sort the tape drive issues and get tapes as I remember the units were very reliable and quite fast. I believe it had a feature to find the file you wanted quickly and index the tape. Do you have the old golf game? It was always a favorite. -- Yes, I was there, if a little late... The good old days really were! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 29 08:18:22 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 06:18:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: command line "museum" Message-ID: Check it out: http://telehack.com @ basic Darthmouth DTSS TeleBASIC (c) 1964,1966,1969,1970,1971,1979 > Blows my mind. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Apr 29 08:40:58 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 09:40:58 -0400 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBABFEA.8060708@verizon.net> On 4/29/2011 9:18 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Check it out: http://telehack.com > > @ basic > Darthmouth DTSS TeleBASIC (c) 1964,1966,1969,1970,1971,1979 >> > > Blows my mind. :) > > g. > > Holy crap. The dial command actually works. Keith From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 29 08:55:28 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 08:55:28 -0500 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201104291404.p3TE4fRJ012802@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 08:18 AM 4/29/2011, you wrote: >Check it out: http://telehack.com Must be trending. Offline. - John From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 29 09:08:08 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 08:08:08 -0600 Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: <201104291002.p3T9vruG003401@omr-m32.mx.aol.com> References: <201104291002.p3T9vruG003401@omr-m32.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: In article <201104291002.p3T9vruG003401 at omr-m32.mx.aol.com>, writes: > I wonder if the MCAUTO label on your keyboard means McDonnell Douglas > Automation. Yes, I believe it is. We discussed this on the length some time ago when I first got this terminal and that was aour conclusion from that discussion. I haven't done any independent research on it yet, but it seems reasonable to me. > I personally would love to have a 4051, does anybody remember those? I have one 4051 that needs some keycaps and some electrical repair before its functional. Also, I would like to create some sort of replacement for the cartridge tape drive for loading software from disk image files. That's a hardware project that's on my list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 29 09:11:54 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 08:11:54 -0600 Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: References: <201104291002.p3T9vruG003401@omr-m32.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > Yes, I believe it is. We discussed this on the length some time ago > [...] Should be "We discussed this at length on the list some time ago..." -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 29 09:14:06 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 07:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: <201104291404.p3TE4fRJ012802@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201104291404.p3TE4fRJ012802@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, John Foust wrote: > At 08:18 AM 4/29/2011, you wrote: > >> Check it out: http://telehack.com > > Must be trending. Offline. > ...or someone entered the "halt" command and it actually halted the CPU. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 29 09:20:03 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: <201104291404.p3TE4fRJ012802@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Must be trending. Offline. >> > ...or someone entered the "halt" command and it actually halted the CPU. :) Hopefully not "HCF". :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 09:22:59 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 07:22:59 -0700 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: <201104291404.p3TE4fRJ012802@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201104291404.p3TE4fRJ012802@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: if you use firefox works fine chris On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:55 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 08:18 AM 4/29/2011, you wrote: > > >Check it out: http://telehack.com > > Must be trending. Offline. > > - John > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 29 09:34:38 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 15:34:38 +0100 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <001c01cc0645$008f8ea0$01aeabe0$@ntlworld.com> References: <06ed01cc05d7$ec88d640$c59a82c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 28, 11 08:10:20 pm <06f001cc05e0$401c9550$c055bff0$@ntlworld.com> <001c01cc0645$008f8ea0$01aeabe0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <005501cc067a$932df0a0$b989d1e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 29 April 2011 09:11 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: new here > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 28 April 2011 21:10 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: new here > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > > Sent: 28 April 2011 20:31 > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Re: new here > > > > > > > I have just this minute attached a dummy load to one of the 5V > > > > outputs and powered it on. Using a multimeter I measured 5.4V on > > > > the 5V outputs and > > > > > > There are 2 independant 5V outputs on this supply, the logic +5V and > > > the memory +5V. Which one did you load, and did you check both of > them? > > > > > > > I loaded one of the +5V outputs on one of the backplane connectors and > > tested every 5V output I could find on the backplane connectors, they > > were all the same voltage. I used a 6V headlamp bulb on the 5W part, > > so drew about 1A. I could try again to make doubly sure and perhaps > > load one of > the > > other 5V outputs. Do you know off hand which output is the one for the > > memory so I can load that too. I have two 6V bulbs available to me now > > so > I > > can load logic and memory if I know which is which. Would you > > recommend me using the 21W filament instead? I am not sure how much > > current the PSU will supply, but guess 5A should not strain it. > > > > I just tried again this morning and got some different results, which > concerns me. This time I connected the 6V 21W bulb and I measured 5.7V > and 16.8V on the 5V and 15V outputs, yesterday they were 5.4 and 15.8 > respectively. I also noticed that the DC ON light did not come on, but I > *think* yesterday it did come on. I did inadvertently power on the machine > without any load for a few seconds yesterday, not sure if this has done some > damage. I tested again with the 5W bulb just to see if it made a difference > but it didn't. > > The bulb was connected to the 5V outputs that go to the backplane. There > does not seem to be a difference between the 5V for memory and logic, all > the 5V outputs from the two connectors at the right of the PSU (labelled P2 > and P4 on the plugs) go to the same connection point on the backplane. > Just a bit more info. I loaded the PSU a bit more. I used two 6V/21W filaments on the 5V output and now I measure 5.4V. I used a 12V/21W filament on the 12V output and got 12.8V (forgot to check this before) and one 12V/21W on the 15V which now gives me about 16V. When I used two bulbs on the 15V output it went down to about 10.5V. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 15.8V on the 15V outputs. I ran it with just the fans running > > > > (forgot to disconnect them) for about 5 minutes and then switched > > > > it off. Are those > > > > > > The fans are not a worry. The fans themselves are simple AC motors > > > and will not be damaged by (sensible) overvoltage. The fan control > > > electroncis might be, but that's on the PSU control board, not in > > > the > fnas > > themselves. > > so > > > it can be repaired. > > > > > > > voltages within tolerance do you think? They seem close enough to > > > > me to warrant putting some boards back, but I would like a second > > > > opinion before risking the boards. > > > > > > The 5V is a little high, biut no hgih enough to do any real damage. > > > I have > > no > > > ideawhat load you used, it may well be that with more load it gets > > > closer > > to > > > 5V. > > > > > > I think it;s safe to try the boards and see what happens. I would > > > re-check > > the > > > PSU votlages with the boards fitted, though, in case one of the > > > drops when mroe heavily loadesd (this can cause some diffiuclt to > > > trace faults, well, dififuclt to trace if you don't check the PSU > > > voltages...) > > > > > > > I am not sure what you mean by barrier strips, you mentioned them > > > > before but I could not see what you are referring to. > > > > > > It's a type of screw terminal block .The basic construction is a > > > plastic > > strup > > > with little metal plates fixed to it. Each plate has 2 screws that > > > you can > > fix > > > wires under. There ar plastic ridges, or barries; between the plates > > > so > > that > > > odd ends of wires on one matal plate can't come into contact with an > > > adjacent plate, hance the name. > > > > > > I think Farnell and RS sell them under that name, a look at either > > > web > > site > > > will give you a picture. > > > > In that case I think I do know what you mean, it is just that there > > are no > red > > wires, just black ones. > > > > > > > > -tony > > Regards > > Rob From spedraja at ono.com Fri Apr 29 09:35:58 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 16:35:58 +0200 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Impressive and funny ! Sergio 2011/4/29 Gene Buckle > > Check it out: http://telehack.com > > @ basic > Darthmouth DTSS TeleBASIC (c) 1964,1966,1969,1970,1971,1979 > >> >> > Blows my mind. :) > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! > > Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical > minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which > holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd > by the clean end. > From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Apr 29 10:09:29 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:09:29 -0500 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0AD8F9ED-CEE3-4307-A451-949EAFA62523@lunar-tokyo.net> On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > Check it out: http://telehack.com You can telnet to it too. I thought it would be funny to telnet from my TOPS-20 instance to there and back, but It doesn't seem to let you telnet out to the real internet. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 29 11:16:55 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:16:55 -0600 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: <0AD8F9ED-CEE3-4307-A451-949EAFA62523@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <0AD8F9ED-CEE3-4307-A451-949EAFA62523@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4DBAE477.2050503@jetnet.ab.ca> On 4/29/2011 9:09 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> Check it out: http://telehack.com > > You can telnet to it too. I thought it would be funny to telnet from > my TOPS-20 instance to there and back, but It doesn't seem to let you > telnet out to the real internet. > > Well they better hurry up, soon every one will expect real internet is at the end of a USB cable. Ben. PS what ever happened to the PDP-8 at PDP8.COM or something like that? From jim at photojim.ca Fri Apr 29 11:30:27 2011 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:30:27 -0600 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion References: Message-ID: <392C00D3BCC44820AD9B7713200BE2DF@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Dickman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 8:42 PM Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion >I need an ethernet converter between 10base2 and 100baseT. Three simple options: 1. If you have an AUI port on the DECserver you can get a UTP transceiver. This is what I've done on some gear. 2. Some older 10BaseT hubs have a 10Base2 connector. You could have a thinnet segment on your network connected to the hub, then connect the hub to your 100BaseTX/1000BaseT switch to effectively bridge the networks. 3. If your router can take another network card, you could add a 10Base2 card to it and set up a separate network segment, and route traffic between your LANs. 1. is easiest, 2 is only marginally harder in that you need a larger piece of hardware. One thing nice about 2 is that you can run as much 10Base2 stuff as you want that way without needing any more hardware other than an appropriate run of thinnet wire. Jim From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 29 12:39:09 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 10:39:09 -0700 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: <201104291404.p3TE4fRJ012802@billY.EZWIND.NET>, Message-ID: It works fine on Safari, too. Very cool. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Halarewich [halarewich at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 7:22 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: command line "museum" if you use firefox works fine chris On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:55 AM, John Foust wrote: > At 08:18 AM 4/29/2011, you wrote: > > >Check it out: http://telehack.com > > Must be trending. Offline. > > - John > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 29 14:03:02 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:03:02 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU Message-ID: <008401cc06a0$11ec3ad0$35c4b070$@ntlworld.com> I took the plunge and put in the CPU modules (M7133 and M7134) into the PDP11/24. The machine powered up and the DC ON light came on, suggesting voltages were in tolerance. So I connected a terminal and got an ODT prompt. I then tried to run a basic diagnostic (using the ODT command 165000G). It came back to the prompt and I was just entering another command when I heard a vague click and the machine powered off. I cannot power it on now. Previously after connecting it to the mains I would hear a slight click, but I don't even hear that now and turning the key will not even start the fans running. However power is getting to the big capacitors because I can see that with my multimeter, so it is not the external fuse or the circuit breaker I think. Presumably some internal fuse has gone, I will leave it to discharge and take a look tomorrow to see if I can find an internal fuse. Any other ideas as to what this might mean? It was going so well.. Regards Rob From frej.drejhammar at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 14:12:18 2011 From: frej.drejhammar at gmail.com (Frej Drejhammar) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 21:12:18 +0200 Subject: Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk> (Philip Pemberton's message of "Wed, 27 Apr 2011 02:41:14 +0100") References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Philip Pemberton writes: > Mainly because I seem to be spending a lot of time chasing > mismatched-free bugs in the algorithms. Thank $DEITY for Valgrind (and > a great big sarcastic "gee, *thanks guys*" to the GTK developers who > have obviously never heard of it, much less used it on their own > code...) Have you read the glib documentation, specifically the "Running and debugging GLib Applications"[1] section? Check what they have to say about the G_SLICE and G_DEBUG environment variables and you frustration with the GTK developers will probably decrease :) Running with G_SLICE=always-malloc and G_DEBUG=gc-friendly will remove most valgrind warnings from inside GTK. Remember that glib and GTk does not free (at termination) structures and configuration data that are useful during the full lifetime of the process so you'll probably want to write a valgrind suppression file for that. http://live.gnome.org/Valgrind contains more information about GTK and valgrind. Regards, --Frej [1] http://developer.gnome.org/glib/2.28/glib-running.html From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Apr 29 14:14:42 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 14:14:42 -0500 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Check it out: http://telehack.com > Oh, I think I broke it, lol From mcsele at niagaracollege.ca Fri Apr 29 14:14:10 2011 From: mcsele at niagaracollege.ca (Mark Csele) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 15:14:10 -0400 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots .. Message-ID: <4DBAD5C2020000E40001E240@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> Have never looked into XXDP. What I have right now: a LSI-11 system booting RT-11 (v5.04) with Kermit on the attached MSCP disk and an RX-01 controller (which works fine - I can boot the disk on the LSI system after building it). On the 11/34 target system all I have is the RX-01 controller so I have to build the disk(s) on the LSI system, then move the cable to the 11/34 to try and boot it. Can you point me to the run-down on building an XXDP disk? Thanks >> As expected, it went off for over a half-hour rebuilding RT-11. >> Produced the expected files and I proceeded to make the disk >> bootable. It boots on the LSI-11 system (an 11/73A) just fine. Put >> that same RX-01 disk on my 11/34 via an M7846 controller and when I >> tried to boot it I get the exact same result as before: it starts to >> boot, steps four tracks or so, then halts at "005134" on the display. >> If I inspect that address, it contains "140000". ... >> Just asking for ideas on where to go next! Anything else I should be >> checking? > If I were you, my next step would be to run a full battery of tests, >focusing on the CPU, via XXDP. Do you have the ability to make a >bootable XXDP disk? > -Dave Professor Mark Csele, P.Eng. Niagara College, Canada 300 Woodlawn Rd., L-23 Welland, ON, L3C 7L3 (905) 735-2211 x.7629 E-Mail: mcsele at niagarac.on.ca URL: http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/people/mcsele Author of "Fundamentals of Light Sources and Lasers", Wiley, 2004 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 14:03:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:03:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: <4DB9C16B.1060502@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 28, 11 03:35:07 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/28/11 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> What is an 'informal qualification'? > >> > >> Simple: A gang of people who know what they're talking about, > >> asserting that YOU know what you're talking about. > > > > And just who decides that said gang of peopole know what they are talking > > about? I can see an infinite regress about to start :-) > > Nah, don't look at it in a suitly way. Our society works VERY VERY I don't think that suits would understand what is meant by 'infinite regress' :-) My comment was intended mostly in jest. I may be mostly a hardware person, but I do find formal logic to be interesting. And that includes various forms of recursive defintion and whether they actually terminate. > HARD to try to "tune out" intuitive knowledge and replace everything > with so-called "facts" printed on paper. We've worked with people who Yes, and it sounds like we're both unhappy about that. > have a piece of paper that asserts that they know what they're talking > about, while we know that they really don't, and vice-versa. Indeed :-( > > >> In my not-commonly-shared-but-still-strongly-held opinion, it's the > >> only qualification that matters. > > > > I will crtainly agree that it is possible to be self-taught, and that > > said 'teaching' can go to a very high level. Just becase you haven't got > > a bit of paper saying you know does not mean that you know nothing > > about or, indeed, that yuou know less about than people with > > said bit of paper. > > > > [No, I am not claiming any of that applies to me...] > > We are of the same opinions here. Are you saying that you don't consider me to be self-taught? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 14:16:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:16:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Aluminum rectifiers (was Dummy Loads) In-Reply-To: <4DB960F2.32567.FAEFED@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 28, 11 12:43:30 pm Message-ID: > I like to read old magazine copy (particularly the advertisements) > because it reinforces the idea that there's really nothing new under > the sun. Yes... Old books on technical subjects are similarly interesting. You find all sorts of things in them that them pop up again later. For example, I have a set of books called 'Modern Electrical Engineering' which appear to date from just after the First World War. I bought them becuase when I flipped through them in a second-hand bookshop, I saw a good description of the Baudot telegraph. But after readingg them mroe fully I found somethign that was even more interesting. A description of the signaling system used on the London Underground ('Tube', call it the Subway if you must :-)). Apparently even then there were too many trains for the signalmen to remember the order. They had an electormechanical FIFO buffer. A drum with 4 rows of pins round it. Each axial positon of 4 pins on the drum corresponded to a word of the store and held the description of one of the trains on the line. A 'write device' moved the 4 pin in the current postion in or out, encoding the description of a particular train. A read device sensed the psitions of the pins. The read and write devices moved independantly relative to the drum, which makes the whole thing very similar to the stnadard implementation of a FIFO buffer using read and write pointers. When a new train came into that block of track, its description was stored as a 4 bit code in the next position on the drum and the write device moved on to the next (unused) position. The read device effectiviely told the signalman what the next train to come out of that block would be, when it emerged, the read device was moved on one position so as to look at the next train's word, and so on. Oh yes, the 4 bits read from the store were decoded to 1-of-16 using a relay tree and then used to operate indicator lights for the signalman. There is one of these devices as a static exhibit in the London Transport Museum, but when I visited it (some years ago, I admit), the description wasn't too clear as to how it worked. Having read the book, I realised what it was. There are, of course many other examples -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 14:17:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:17:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: <4DB9C446.30000@verizon.net> from "Keith M" at Apr 28, 11 03:47:18 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/28/2011 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I will crtainly agree that it is possible to be self-taught, and that > > said 'traching' can go to a very high level. Just becase you haven't got > > a bit of paper saying you know does not beam that you know nothign > > about or, indeed, that yuou know less about than people with > > said bit of paper. > > Tony, > > I can usually decode your many misspellings and lysdexic-isms, but what > is "traching" ? Is this supposed to be "teaching?" Or perhaps some > British slang I'm not picking up on? No, it's 'teaching'. Hit the wrong key ('R' is adjacent to 'E'...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 14:47:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:47:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Apr 28, 11 02:49:05 pm Message-ID: > >Absent strong acids, metallic lead is comparatively safe. > > Yeah. But "Chemistry puzzles me" and I'm not too confident I > won't inadvertently electrolyze some of the lead into solution. Nor It's possible that you will, but unless you then drink the electrolyte at the end of the experiment, I don't think it will do you all that much harm. > that the kids won't do so when they try something clever out. > Heavy-metal poisoning (not just lead, either) is one of those > slow-acting, subtle things where you can get into a lot of trouble > before you realize it. I know it's around a lot (like, the car The other side to this is that unless you show kids how do fun things, they will have a go on their own. Possibly with things that are a lot more dangereous than a car battery and lead. And unless you show them that there are dangers which can be avoided (and not just by neer doing Yes, I solder outside, for improved ventilation, when I > solder. I'll wear the "paranoia" badge but I may not change my > behavior. I think that's going a bit far., The fumes given off when soft-soldering are flux, the amount of lead in them is very small. I think I've expressed this view before... Everything has some risks associated with it, even getting out of bed in the morning. So I could either spend my life lying in bed and die of boredom or I can get on with what I enjoy, even though there are some dangers in doing so. I'll take sensible precaustions (not drinking the electrolyte as it may contain heavy metal ions, not eating solder, making sure high voltage devices are isolated and discharged before I work on them, etc). My life will probably be shorter doing that, but it will be a lot more enjoyable which would seem to be the important thing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 14:55:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:55:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <06f001cc05e0$401c9550$c055bff0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 28, 11 09:09:56 pm Message-ID: > > There are 2 independant 5V outputs on this supply, the logic +5V and the > > memory +5V. Which one did you load, and did you check both of them? > > > > I loaded one of the +5V outputs on one of the backplane connectors and I don't know the 11/24 that well (at least not this version, mine is in the 5/25" box with the more standard SMPSU). In the 11/44, there's a main 5V supply for the CPU logic, the Unibus cards, etc and a separate +5VB line (I think that's what it's called) for the memory boards only. I cna take a look at the prints on bitsaers and see what goes where. > tested every 5V output I could find on the backplane connectors, they were > all the same voltage. I used a 6V headlamp bulb on the 5W part, so drew The main 5V output of this supply is rated to supply up to 125A (!). I think I'd load it a little more heavily than that. > about 1A. I could try again to make doubly sure and perhaps load one of the > other 5V outputs. Do you know off hand which output is the one for the > memory so I can load that too. I have two 6V bulbs available to me now so I > can load logic and memory if I know which is which. Would you recommend me > using the 21W filament instead? I am not sure how much current the PSU will > supply, but guess 5A should not strain it. I cna't remmber what the memeory supply can provide, but I'll bet it's more than 5A. The CPU supply is 125A I think (maybe 120A, it's a lot anyhow). These supplys will shut down without damage if you try to draw too much current from them. So try whatever bulbs you like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 15:07:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 21:07:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bench supply (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: <20110428140440.D45421@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 28, 11 02:20:47 pm Message-ID: > > > At 18:09 -0500 4/27/11, ard wrote: > > >[1] I am not one of those. I have no qualifications in electronics or > > >computing. > On Thu, 28 Apr 2011, Mark Tapley wrote: > > I think it would be fair to insert the word "formal". > > Tony seems like an informal kinda guy! That depends one what I am being 'formal' about. I am 'informal' when it comes to clothing, tidiness, making a quick kludge-circuit to get somethign done, etc. I am 'formal' when it comes to attempting to completely understand something (what i mean is, I will not skip over some part of a cirucit because it's 'obvious'. Often such bits are the real key to the workigns of the device in question), or when I am designing soemthing that is goign to be usef many times or by others. aAnd I guess I am 'forma;' when it comes to elecrtical safety. Yes, I'll work on high botlage stuff. Yes, I'll work with the mains. Yes, I'll work with CRTs (and worse). But I will not leave off earth wires, or short out fuses, or anything like that. > I can not imagine him wearing a tux. I think I've worn one exactly once in my life (to get my first degree, univerities expect things like that, and they can refuse to grant the degree if you don't comply). > > > >You mean you don;'t have a bench supply??? > > Well, I have some orphaned in-line or wall-wart supplies intended for > > computers, radios, etc. that I could chop the connectors off of. But > > I figured the jump cables could put out more current. > > A somewhat bulky, heavy, relatively high capacity 12V supply, that has a > built-in petrol powered charger, and is not only on wheels for moving it, > it is self-propelled. That makes it readily movable to alternate sites, > and can even be used for moving the whole thing to a petrol dispensary > when the fuel supply needs to be replenished. Although the guvmint > regulates transporting it under its own power, there is little or no > regulation of what you can do with it while stationary. It has seats, not > quite like a Cray, that are even enclosed (with windows) for inclement > weather (some teenagers re-purpose it as a romantic assignation). It has Undortuneatly there is not normally enough space to provide a workbench inside.So you can sit down, but there;s nowhere to put the PCB you're working on. > a boot for storing the connecting cables, and some tools. It has a radio > that can be used while working, and bright work lights on one end, > although not as readily aimable as would be nice. Those worklights can > also function, when removed, as an excellent dummy load. Although it One of my old books of enginering hints and tips suggests making up an extension lead so one of said 'work lights' can be removed and used separately.. > could easily be modified to run on the hydrogen that it is capable of > producing, unfortunately, the efficiency is too low for it to produce as > much hydrogen as it would require for sustained operation. Well, if you can make a system which will burn hydrogen in an engine and use the resulting mechanical otuput of said engine to run a generator to electrolyse water to make hyrdrogen and if you end up producing more hydrogen than you burn, a lot of people will be very interested. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 15:36:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 21:36:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4DB9D53A020000E40001E19B@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> from "Mark Csele" at Apr 28, 11 08:59:38 pm Message-ID: > > In the ongoing saga of my attempt to get RT-11 to run on my 11/34 .... = > (I'll spare the bandwidth by not attaching the entire chain of experiments = > run ...) > > Checked my copy of RT-11 and indeed it was SYSGEN'd. In my latest = > attempt, I did a SYSGEN as well, this time choosing to build a very, very = > basic version of RT-11SJ on RX-01. No FPU support, no timers, nothing = > fancy. Added device support for TT, DX, and DU devices only (the 11/34 = > has no installed DU device at all, I wanted to add it for future considerat= > ion). > > As expected, it went off for over a half-hour rebuilding RT-11. Produced = > the expected files and I proceeded to make the disk bootable. It boots on = > the LSI-11 system (an 11/73A) just fine. Put that same RX-01 disk on my = > 11/34 via an M7846 controller and when I tried to boot it I get the exact = > same result as before: it starts to boot, steps four tracks or so, then = > halts at "005134" on the display. If I inspect that address, it contains = > "140000". > > Sigghhhhh. > > Any thoughts as to what it could be? Disk controller card (M7846)? =20 I think what I would do next would be one or other of the following : 1) Build a version of RT11 without DU support. I can't see why having that would be a problem, but try to have a version built just for the hardware you have. No other options. 2) I might be the RX11 board, I guess. I think I would see if it's generating interrupts, and if so, if it only geneates one before the system falls over (maybe indicating a problem with the interrupt logic on that card, the vector output buffers, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 15:40:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 21:40:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <001c01cc0645$008f8ea0$01aeabe0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 29, 11 09:11:05 am Message-ID: > I just tried again this morning and got some different results, which > concerns me. This time I connected the 6V 21W bulb and I measured 5.7V and This worries me too. Thos voltages are high, but more worryingly, the PSU seems not to be regualting properly. Now, an SMPSU, of even a simple switching regulator, cna have an output votlage that papears to rise under load if the output electrolytic capacitors have a high ESR. But this doens't explain why the voltages don't go back to the original value when you go back to the 5W bulb. > 16.8V on the 5V and 15V outputs, yesterday they were 5.4 and 15.8 > respectively. I also noticed that the DC ON light did not come on, but I > *think* yesterday it did come on. I did inadvertently power on the machine > without any load for a few seconds yesterday, not sure if this has done some > damage. I tested again with the 5W bulb just to see if it made a difference > but it didn't. I asusme you've conencted the bulb between the same 2 connections each time. > > The bulb was connected to the 5V outputs that go to the backplane. There > does not seem to be a difference between the 5V for memory and logic, all > the 5V outputs from the two connectors at the right of the PSU (labelled P2 > and P4 on the plugs) go to the same connection point on the backplane. Is there a '+5VB' connection too? I am going to have to look in the printset.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 16:02:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 22:02:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <008401cc06a0$11ec3ad0$35c4b070$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 29, 11 08:03:02 pm Message-ID: > > I took the plunge and put in the CPU modules (M7133 and M7134) into the > PDP11/24. The machine powered up and the DC ON light came on, suggesting > voltages were in tolerance. So I connected a terminal and got an ODT prompt. > I then tried to run a basic diagnostic (using the ODT command 165000G). It > came back to the prompt and I was just entering another command when I heard > a vague click and the machine powered off. I cannot power it on now. > Previously after connecting it to the mains I would hear a slight click, but > I don't even hear that now and turning the key will not even start the fans > running. Oh $deity... I am actually not too suprised about the fans if nothing else is working. As I mentioned earlier, the fans run off a 36V DC output from the memory switch-mode PSU. So if everythign is dead, the fans don't run either... > > However power is getting to the big capacitors because I can see that with > my multimeter, so it is not the external fuse or the circuit breaker I > think. Presumably some internal fuse has gone, I will leave it to discharge I don't remember any inernal fuses... I am going to have to look at the prints, but from what I remembr, there's soem control circuiry on the leftmost PCB in the PSU unit. This is powered form a small SMPSU circuit. I think I would chekc that that is gettign power first. Pehaps solder som wires ot the power pins of one of the TTL chips inthe control section, put the PCB back in place, conenct said wires ot a voltmeter, attempt to power up and see if you get 5V to power said TTL chip. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 29 16:21:46 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 14:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 4/28/2011 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> I will crtainly agree that it is possible to be self-taught, and that >>> said 'traching' can go to a very high level. Just becase you haven't got >>> a bit of paper saying you know does not beam that you know nothign >>> about or, indeed, that yuou know less about than people with >>> said bit of paper. >> >> Tony, >> >> I can usually decode your many misspellings and lysdexic-isms, but what >> is "traching" ? Is this supposed to be "teaching?" Or perhaps some >> British slang I'm not picking up on? > > No, it's 'teaching'. Hit the wrong key ('R' is adjacent to 'E'...) > You might want to try using one finger from each hand at a time instead of two. :) *gd&r* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 29 16:37:43 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 22:37:43 +0100 Subject: Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DBB2FA7.9010304@philpem.me.uk> ... And now it does Speedgraph analysis and peak display too: http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/philpem/Screenshot-1-2.png That's a partial image of a TRS-80/4 floppy. The logarithmic histogram shows that there's a good separation between the various timing 'zones', which means it should be fairly easy to get a good read from this disc. The scatter plot shows similar gaps between the timing lines, further emphasising this point. The three peaks on the histogram suggest MFM coding, with a base time period of around a microsecond. This gives a data rate of ~250kbps. Moving onto the scatter plot, you can see what appears to be nine distinct sectors. The first three are apparently blank (0xFF), with data in the remaining six. From the speed graph, the 'cut points' (inter-sector gaps) between the sectors are even more obvious as fuzzy 'blobs' with large spikes at the transition points. So there you have it :) I'm going to add a few more file formats to the image loader, give the read tool the ability to actually *write* something, then you can all have a play with these lovely little toys :) Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 29 17:51:16 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 15:51:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bench supply (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110429154351.L85429@shell.lmi.net> > > A somewhat bulky, heavy, relatively high capacity 12V supply, that has a > > built-in petrol powered charger, and is not only on wheels for moving it, > > it is self-propelled. That makes it readily movable to alternate sites, > > and can even be used for moving the whole thing to a petrol dispensary > > when the fuel supply needs to be replenished. Although the guvmint > > regulates transporting it under its own power, there is little or no > > regulation of what you can do with it while stationary. It has seats, not > > quite like a Cray, that are even enclosed (with windows) for inclement > > weather (some teenagers re-purpose it as a romantic assignation). It has On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Undortuneatly there is not normally enough space to provide a workbench > inside.So you can sit down, but there;s nowhere to put the PCB you're > working on. That is certainly the worst drawback. Most of the other complaints are minor, such as that the metronome on the front window is uncalibrated and not easy to get an accurate speed adjustment. > > could easily be modified to run on the hydrogen that it is capable of > > producing, unfortunately, the efficiency is too low for it to produce as > > much hydrogen as it would require for sustained operation. > Well, if you can make a system which will burn hydrogen in an engine and > use the resulting mechanical otuput of said engine to run a generator to > electrolyse water to make hyrdrogen and if you end up producing more > hydrogen than you burn, a lot of people will be very interested. and yet, there are still people buying into devices such as the one that s'posedly improves gas mileage by using PART of the power to create hydrogen gas to be used to supplement the petrol in the carburetor! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Apr 29 17:52:09 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 22:52:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William Donzelli was the first to respond, so he's getting the paper copy. Since a number of other folks were interested, I went ahead and scanned it: http://alexeyt.freeshell.org/CDC-8528-reference-manual.tgz It's 300 DPI grayscale TIFFs in the tar file. I would appreciate it if someone would mirror it somewhere more permanent. Alexey From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 17:59:51 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 17:59:51 -0500 Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > William Donzelli was the first to respond, so he's getting the paper copy. > Since a number of other folks were interested, I went ahead and scanned it: > > http://alexeyt.freeshell.org/CDC-8528-reference-manual.tgz > > It's 300 DPI grayscale TIFFs in the tar file. I would appreciate it if > someone would mirror it somewhere more permanent. Alexey - I will grab it this weekend and post it at chiclassiccomp.org/docs Thanks for scanning! -j From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 18:01:51 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:01:51 -0500 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> >> Check it out: http://telehack.com >> OK...it's awesome. Now *what* is it? Is it a restore of an early UNIX system? Some familiar commands work; many do not. The area code database in the wardial program told me it was mid-80s (based on which Chicago-area NPAs were listed.) Looking at the usenet program, which contains actual old posts (!) confirms this. -- jht From legalize at xmission.com Fri Apr 29 18:05:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 17:05:11 -0600 Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > Alexey - I will grab it this weekend and post it at chiclassiccomp.org/docs Can you PDF-ize it too? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 29 18:08:25 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 16:08:25 -0700 Subject: Bench supply (Was: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: <20110429154351.L85429@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20110429154351.L85429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DBAE279.23178.1C8A81D@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2011 at 15:51, Fred Cisin wrote: > and yet, there are still people buying into devices such as the one > that s'posedly improves gas mileage by using PART of the power to > create hydrogen gas to be used to supplement the petrol in the > carburetor! One of my favorite web sites of the absurd: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page There seems to be a fascination with Tesla coils, magnets and "HHO gas", not to mention overbalanced wheels and other such stuff. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Apr 29 18:09:32 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 16:09:32 -0700 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBB452C.3010100@bitsavers.org> On 4/29/11 4:01 PM, Jason T wrote: > Is it a restore of an early > UNIX system? DTSS 1979 should be a huge clue. Are there any more details anywhere? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 29 18:25:24 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:25:24 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <008401cc06a0$11ec3ad0$35c4b070$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 29, 11 08:03:02 pm Message-ID: <00b101cc06c4$bb971860$32c54920$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 29 April 2011 22:02 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > > > I took the plunge and put in the CPU modules (M7133 and M7134) into > > the PDP11/24. The machine powered up and the DC ON light came on, > > suggesting voltages were in tolerance. So I connected a terminal and got > an ODT prompt. > > I then tried to run a basic diagnostic (using the ODT command > > 165000G). It came back to the prompt and I was just entering another > > command when I heard a vague click and the machine powered off. I > cannot power it on now. > > Previously after connecting it to the mains I would hear a slight > > click, but I don't even hear that now and turning the key will not > > even start the fans running. > > > Oh $deity... > > I am actually not too suprised about the fans if nothing else is working. > As I mentioned earlier, the fans run off a 36V DC output from the memory > switch-mode PSU. So if everythign is dead, the fans don't run either... > > > > > However power is getting to the big capacitors because I can see that > > with my multimeter, so it is not the external fuse or the circuit > > breaker I think. Presumably some internal fuse has gone, I will leave > > it to discharge > > I don't remember any inernal fuses... > > I am going to have to look at the prints, but from what I remembr, there's > soem control circuiry on the leftmost PCB in the PSU unit. This is powered > form a small SMPSU circuit. I think I would chekc that that is gettign power > first. Pehaps solder som wires ot the power pins of one of the TTL chips > inthe control section, put the PCB back in place, conenct said wires ot a > voltmeter, attempt to power up and see if you get 5V to power said TTL > chip. > > -tony I will add some diagnostic wires to the board as you suggest, I don't remember a lot about TTL chips, is there a convention about which are the power pins? In the meantime someone else told me that the click I would hear when connecting to the mains (before switching it on with the key) was some kind of relay. I don't hear that anymore, would that help to isolate the problem at all? Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 29 18:56:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 16:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DBB2FA7.9010304@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk> <4DBB2FA7.9010304@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20110429165259.N85429@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > That's a partial image of a TRS-80/4 floppy. The logarithmic histogram > . . . > The three peaks on the histogram suggest MFM coding, with a base time > period of around a microsecond. This gives a data rate of ~250kbps. > . . . > Moving onto the scatter plot, you can see what appears to be nine > distinct sectors. The first three are apparently blank (0xFF), with data > in the remaining six. Are you SURE that that disk is from a TRS80? TRS-DOS and its derivatives normally had 256 bytes per sector (18 sectors per track) From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 29 18:57:33 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 16:57:33 -0700 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> On Apr 29, 2011, at 8:18 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >>> >>> Check it out: http://telehack.com >>> > > OK...it's awesome. Now *what* is it? Is it a restore of an early > UNIX system? Some familiar commands work; many do not. > > The area code database in the wardial program told me it was mid-80s > (based on which Chicago-area NPAs were listed.) Looking at the usenet > program, which contains actual old posts (!) confirms this. >From what I could tell, it's a puzzle game of some sort. I typed "quest", and it suggested I break into a system a couple of hops away, then read a file there for further instructions. I assume a series of quests is how one gets DEMIGOD instead of USER after their names :-). Vince From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Apr 29 19:06:46 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 17:06:46 -0700 Subject: RT-11 / RX-01 issues ... "almost" boots ... In-Reply-To: <4DBAA92D.9060409@neurotica.com> References: <4DB9D53A020000E40001E19B@ncgwia.niagarac.on.ca> <4DBAA92D.9060409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DBB5296.3050403@mindspring.com> On 4/29/2011 5:03 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 4/28/11 8:59 PM, Mark Csele wrote: > ... >> As expected, it went off for over a half-hour rebuilding RT-11. >> Produced the expected files and I proceeded to make the disk >> bootable. It boots on the LSI-11 system (an 11/73A) just fine. Put >> that same RX-01 disk on my 11/34 via an M7846 controller and when I >> tried to boot it I get the exact same result as before: it starts to >> boot, steps four tracks or so, then halts at "005134" on the display. >> If I inspect that address, it contains "140000". > ... >> Just asking for ideas on where to go next! Anything else I should be >> checking? > > If I were you, my next step would be to run a full battery of tests, > focusing on the CPU, via XXDP. Do you have the ability to make a > bootable XXDP disk? > > -Dave > Personally I would go here: http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/ and look in the TU58 and possibly M9312 directories (the ZZ test ROM I have found very useful). If you get an 'access denied' response it is because by default I disable most blocks of IP addresses from outside North America. My server was continuously getting bombarded from sites in mainland China looking for PHP holes. So by default I closed the door in Apache; email me if you want access with your IP address block. Don AK6DN From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 29 19:09:48 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 01:09:48 +0100 Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <20110429165259.N85429@shell.lmi.net> References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk> <4DBB2FA7.9010304@philpem.me.uk> <20110429165259.N85429@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DBB534C.3080704@philpem.me.uk> On 30/04/11 00:56, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are you SURE that that disk is from a TRS80? > TRS-DOS and its derivatives normally had 256 bytes per sector (18 sectors > per track) Hmm. I've got it listed as "TRS-80 Model 4P" in my catalogue. Maybe I need to feed it through one of the decoders and see what happens... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 29 19:24:51 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 17:24:51 -0700 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I love that "thid" is Intel Corporation, OMSO Multibus II Engineering Intel System 286/310 XENIX 286 R3.5 I used to work for Intel in OMSO, on XENIX 286, and I still have my System 286/310! Vince (Try guest, no password. Which was also authentic; many systems forgot to set a password for guest. The shell is brain-damaged, though.) From chd at chdickman.com Fri Apr 29 20:18:53 2011 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 21:18:53 -0400 Subject: 10base2 to 100baseT conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I need an ethernet converter between 10base2 and 100baseT. > > I looked in the attic and discovered I already had the solution. I have a DEChub 90 and a DECrepeater 90T-16. Plug the DECrepeater and DECserver into the DEChub and I get my DECserver on a 10MB network that is connected to 100baseT (via the DECrepeater) and 10base2 (via the DEChub) networks. The DEChub power supply fan is kind of noisy, so I need to look into that. I think I need to get an old rack mounted hub/switch that has all the conversions. I also think that I need to keep spares in mind a bit more. Thanks for all the suggestions. -chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 29 20:24:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:24:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DBB534C.3080704@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk> <4DBB2FA7.9010304@philpem.me.uk> <20110429165259.N85429@shell.lmi.net> <4DBB534C.3080704@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20110429182212.S89626@shell.lmi.net> > > Are you SURE that that disk is from a TRS80? > > TRS-DOS and its derivatives normally had 256 bytes per sector (18 sectors > > per track) On Sat, 30 Apr 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hmm. I've got it listed as "TRS-80 Model 4P" in my catalogue. Maybe I > need to feed it through one of the decoders and see what happens... I don't remember for sure, but the CP/M 3.0 that was also available for the model 4 might have been 9 x 512 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 29 20:29:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:29:07 -0700 Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DBB534C.3080704@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk>, <20110429165259.N85429@shell.lmi.net>, <4DBB534C.3080704@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DBB0373.19148.249791A@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2011 at 1:09, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hmm. I've got it listed as "TRS-80 Model 4P" in my catalogue. Maybe I > need to feed it through one of the decoders and see what happens... Well, there *was* a Mod 4 CP/M format that was 8 sectors of 512 bytes, but no 9 AFAIK. --Chuck From george at rachors.com Fri Apr 29 20:46:01 2011 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:46:01 -0700 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47678121-18BD-46FF-9B9E-9AB93401F499@rachors.com> Ah xenix... I to have a 286 based 310. The good old days! George Sent from my iPhone george at rachors.com On Apr 29, 2011, at 5:24 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I love that "thid" is > Intel Corporation, OMSO Multibus II Engineering > Intel System 286/310 XENIX 286 R3.5 > > I used to work for Intel in OMSO, on XENIX 286, and I still have my System 286/310! > > Vince > > (Try guest, no password. Which was also authentic; > many systems forgot to set a password for guest. > The shell is brain-damaged, though.) > From technobug at comcast.net Fri Apr 29 20:46:10 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:46:10 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Apr 2011 14:21:46 -0700 (PDT), ene Buckle wrote: > On Fri, 29 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> >>> On 4/28/2011 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>>> I will crtainly agree that it is possible to be self-taught, and that >>>> said 'traching' can go to a very high level. Just becase you haven't got >>>> a bit of paper saying you know does not beam that you know nothign >>>> about or, indeed, that yuou know less about than people with >>>> said bit of paper. >>> >>> Tony, >>> >>> I can usually decode your many misspellings and lysdexic-isms, but what >>> is "traching" ? Is this supposed to be "teaching?" Or perhaps some >>> British slang I'm not picking up on? >> >> No, it's 'teaching'. Hit the wrong key ('R' is adjacent to 'E'...) >> > > You might want to try using one finger from each hand at a time instead of > two. :) *gd&r* C'mon guys, ease up. Half duplex is a bitch :) ->CRC From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 29 21:09:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 22:09:41 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBB6F65.9060205@neurotica.com> On 4/29/11 3:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> HARD to try to "tune out" intuitive knowledge and replace everything >> with so-called "facts" printed on paper. We've worked with people who > > Yes, and it sounds like we're both unhappy about that. Yes. >>> I will crtainly agree that it is possible to be self-taught, and that >>> said 'teaching' can go to a very high level. Just becase you haven't got >>> a bit of paper saying you know does not mean that you know nothing >>> about or, indeed, that yuou know less about than people with >>> said bit of paper. >>> >>> [No, I am not claiming any of that applies to me...] >> >> We are of the same opinions here. > > Are you saying that you don't consider me to be self-taught? No, I'm agreeing with your assertion in the paragraph above. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 29 21:52:40 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 03:52:40 +0100 Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DBB0373.19148.249791A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk>, <20110429165259.N85429@shell.lmi.net>, <4DBB534C.3080704@philpem.me.uk> <4DBB0373.19148.249791A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DBB7978.5040804@philpem.me.uk> On 30/04/11 02:29, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Apr 2011 at 1:09, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Hmm. I've got it listed as "TRS-80 Model 4P" in my catalogue. Maybe I >> need to feed it through one of the decoders and see what happens... > > Well, there *was* a Mod 4 CP/M format that was 8 sectors of 512 > bytes, but no 9 AFAIK. 18/256 looks more likely. The head-zero tracks all have far more than 9 sectors on them. With so many sectors it's hard to tell, but 18 seems plausible based on the inter-sector gaps. Those 9/512 sectors look suspiciously like DOS 360K tracks... though what I don't get is why every track is formatted like that. DOS 360K is only 40 tracks. Unless it was read in a 40-track drive..? What a cock-up. My face is red! (though probably more because my desk fan's packed in, and it's like an oven in here!) At least it's not as "strange and unusual" as the Durango F-85 format. GCR, 12 sectors (or it *looks* like 12 sectors at least)... Without a GCR code table, I probably won't get far with that one... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 29 22:00:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:00:36 -0700 Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DBB7978.5040804@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk>, <4DBB0373.19148.249791A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DBB7978.5040804@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DBB18E4.3920.29D3AD0@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2011 at 3:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > The head-zero tracks all have far more than 9 sectors on them. With so > many sectors it's hard to tell, but 18 seems plausible based on the > inter-sector gaps. Well, yes, there were 18-sector, 256 byte/sector single-sided formats for the model 4--MT CP/M comes to mind as one. Doubtless there was also a similar TRSDOS format. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 29 22:03:39 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:03:39 -0700 Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DBB7978.5040804@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk>, <4DBB0373.19148.249791A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DBB7978.5040804@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DBB199B.25806.2A00412@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2011 at 3:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > At least it's not as "strange and unusual" as the Durango F-85 format. > GCR, 12 sectors (or it *looks* like 12 sectors at least)... Without a > GCR code table, I probably won't get far with that one... 12 sectors is correct, and they're 512 bytes. Consider looking at the sector ID fields--those are of a known structure ( C H R N+crc) and follow a logical sequence. That's how I figured out a couple of word processor formats, as well as a Future Data development system. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 29 22:25:36 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 20:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DBB7978.5040804@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DB7743A.7000409@philpem.me.uk>, <20110429165259.N85429@shell.lmi.net>, <4DBB534C.3080704@philpem.me.uk> <4DBB0373.19148.249791A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DBB7978.5040804@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20110429200945.X89626@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 30 Apr 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > 18/256 looks more likely. > The head-zero tracks all have far more than 9 sectors on them. With so > many sectors it's hard to tell, but 18 seems plausible based on the > inter-sector gaps. > Those 9/512 sectors look suspiciously like DOS 360K tracks... though > what I don't get is why every track is formatted like that. DOS 360K is > only 40 tracks. Unless it was read in a 40-track drive..? 40 track Single sided drives were standard in TRS80. If a disk was formatted PC360K, and then RE-formatted on TRS80, then you would have 18 x 256 on side 0 and 9 x 412 on side B Model 1 was sssd 35 cylinder 10 x 256 (cf. Osborne SD) aftermarket DD Model 3 SSDD 40 cylinder 18 x 256 aftermarket CP/M and other mods, DS, 80 cylinder, etc. some of the aftermarket CP/M mods used a variety of different disk formats Model 4 same as model 3, but 80 x 24 video, memory mappable to 64K contiguous CP/M 3.0 available from Radio Shack (8? x 512), but didn't catch on Model 4P same as model 4, in a Compaq like luggable case Never expect a TRS80 disk to be adequately labeled as to what it is. LOTS of "EVERYBODY uses Dos-Plus", "NOBODY uses TRS-DOS", etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 22:35:51 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:35:51 -0300 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) References: <201104271045.54523.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <702046DD50F643379B25A60231DAA2D8@portajara> > I did something similar way back when, only I used carbon rods scavenged > from dead "D" cells for the electrodes. Tried it first with batteries, > and that was awfully slow. So then I got this bright idea of using a > selenium rectifier and a line cord I had handy... ROTFL! > I had to keep adding water, of course, and since "stuff" in the water > stayed put as the electrolysis proceeded, the water got darker and > darker. This was right out of the tap, and it put me off of drinking > water for quite some time. :-) ROTFL! 2.0 enhanced turbo plus version! :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 22:42:28 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:42:28 -0300 Subject: Tektronix photos updated References: <447021.64939.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Thought #1: Wow! >Thought #2: I'm jealous "He who gets the best toys, is the one who go after them!" Imagine how I bought a TDS420A, a HP5238A, a HP8656B, a HP75000B, PM8917, TSG-100 and some more toys in three months? :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 22:45:39 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:45:39 -0300 Subject: new here References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5EBD25F0774A4F949232618EC897A2A5@portajara> >> also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there >> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg Man, the guy does some serious stuff on that table! :oD But why the tire and the motor block (seems a VW one) below it? I also see a very old Handy talker, a nice wire display from motorola, and a something-machine on the far corner of the photo :D You like wire, eh? lots and lots of wire spools around! :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 23:06:07 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 01:06:07 -0300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 92, Issue 67 References: <4DB9C446.30000@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3D193D0D50E94DFCBA7BB7B42D18F194@portajara> > I can usually decode your many misspellings and lysdexic-isms, but what > is "traching" ? Is this supposed to be "teaching?" Or perhaps some > British slang I'm not picking up on? Teaching...the E sits beside the R... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 23:07:26 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 01:07:26 -0300 Subject: new here References: <4DB9C4E3.40708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <451A6A139A524276B8C73EA8AD39116B@portajara> > I currently don't have a workbench. I work on the floor, sitting > Indian-style. Does that statement extend to, "No workbench is a sign of > no mind"? :) But aren't you from India? Maybe things are different there :) Hum...how do you call people from India in english? Indians? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 23:08:42 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 01:08:42 -0300 Subject: new here References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com><4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5AE333E3AA3D45519589FA27B86C22BC@portajara> > lot cleaner right now then in that shot So it lost its magic :( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 23:38:26 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:38:26 -0400 Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > William Donzelli was the first to respond, so he's getting the paper copy. > Since a number of other folks were interested, I went ahead and scanned it: Al will probably get to scan it if he wants anyway. And I have a bunch of CDC and General Automation manuals that he may want to scan with me over the next few days. Meet this Sunday? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 29 23:48:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 21:48:38 -0700 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <451A6A139A524276B8C73EA8AD39116B@portajara> References: , <451A6A139A524276B8C73EA8AD39116B@portajara> Message-ID: <4DBB3236.10263.30021D8@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2011 at 1:07, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > I currently don't have a workbench. I work on the floor, sitting > > Indian-style. Does that statement extend to, "No workbench is a > > sign of no mind"? :) > > But aren't you from India? Maybe things are different there :) > > Hum...how do you call people from India in english? Indians? Yes, or sometimes "Asian Indian". For the local variety, often "Native American". It can get to be quite confusing, occasionally requiring some adjectival help. Throw into that mess, the people from, say, the Phillipines, who are "East Indians". Another old attempt at disambiguation was "red indian" for our pre- Columbian inhabitants, but that's largely passed from current usage-- some felt that the term had a negative tone to it. But that's because some stupid European didn't know where he was and got everything confused. When I was young, I wondered why any 19th century European would write a novel about Hoosiers... --Chuck From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Apr 30 00:39:58 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:39:58 -0500 Subject: Barretter (was Dummy loads) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBBA0AE.7070505@tx.rr.com> On 4/27/2011 2:33 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 4/26/2011 2:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> The reason is quite simple--tungsten-filament lamps (not that I >>>> expect anyone to have any carbon-filament ones) have a very steep >>>> resistance-temperature curve (higher "hot" resistance). >>> >>> Tugsten filament lamps approximate a constant current load over quite a >>> range of voltages (am I the only person to rememebr the baretter?). >> >> I'm sure it's just a typo, and I apologize in advance for being too dumb >> to figure it out, but what is a baretter? (Sounds quite interesting, > > It is a typo, or rather a mis-spelling. It should be 'barretter;. OK, thanks. Usually the search engines guess better than on this one. After all, only one "r" was missing! Neither Ixquick nor Google guessed the other spelling though. > > A barretter is a constant-current device, essentially a special type of > filament lime. Often the filament was iron wire in a hydrogen-filled bulb > (or so I've read). The current floowing though the device was fairly > constant for quite a wide range of voltages across it. > > Some UK series-string radio sets had one in series with the heater chain > (rather than a dropping resistor) so that the heater current would be > correct for jsut about any mains input voltage. > > The were also used as a ballast for the Nernst glower in some IR sources > (which is where I first came across one at school [I managed to convicne > the powers that be that getting me to chase a ball around an area of > grass was a waste of everyone's time, so I got to fiddle with electronics > stuff instead. Getting the old IR source to work again was just one of > the many things I tried] > Wow, I'm sure you are correct in some incarnations of the device, but my quick search shows Fessenden using it as what sounds like an AM detector. There is also mention of using it for microwave power measurements. I suspect these are very delicate versions of the ones used as constant current devices with probably a different method of construction. One I found (Wikipedia - yes I know that is suspect) starts with a .003 inch diameter platinum wire encased inside a 0.1 inch diameter silver wire. Then the combination is drawn down until the outer silver wire is only .002 inch in diameter. By this point, the platinum is very thin indeed. Next a bit of the silver is etched away, leaving a very thin section of platinum as the operational element. The thing is then put into an evacuated glass bulb with the silver leads brought out. Supposedly the tiny platinum section can change resistance quickly enough to follow the audio modulation but not the RF carrier on which it is superimposed. Probably not used too much in classic computers, but fascinating nevertheless. > FWIW, if you have an old device using a barretter, you can often use a > mains-voltage lamp to replace it. I am pretty sure I used a normal 60W > bulb (so 0.25A at 240V) to replace a 0.3A barrretter in said IR source. > > -tony > From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Apr 30 01:27:58 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 23:27:58 -0700 Subject: Eprom programming current... Message-ID: Hey! Would 150ma be enough current on various voltages for programming eproms? I just got a bunch of 14 pin DIP VRMs that are rated for 150ma output without using a bypass transistor..... From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Apr 30 02:04:49 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:04:49 -0700 Subject: Free (Seattle) - M4 Data 9-track drive Message-ID: <4DBBB491.3060603@mail.msu.edu> I've got what I'm fairly sure is some model of M4-Data 9-track drive in a "desktop" enclosure, relabeled as an "Interface Data, Inc." drive. It's similar, but not identical, to the 9914 for which there is documentation on Bitsavers. It appears to do 1600 and 3200 BPI (not sure what encodings.) It has a Differential SCSI interface option, along with a Pertec interface. It's labeled on the back as "Model No. 9946." I have some pictures I took when I first got it (it hasn't changed much since then) at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/9-track/ The tape transport seems to be working fine (it loads and unloads, moves to BOT and rewinds just as I'd expect. The auto-loading procedure on these drives always seems magical to me...) but there's something wrong with the digital side of things. I've made a few attempts over the past couple of years to use the Pertec interface (with the Diff SCSI interface removed) but all reads result in parity errors. It may just be a configuration issue -- there are tons of configurable settings via the front panel -- but I lack the documentation to know what they are (they are not the same as the 9914's as far as I can tell) or to do any other testing. Picked this up almost three years ago (time flies!) and it's just been taking up space. Time to get it out of here. Anyone want it? It's free! Pickup only in the Seattle area. And if anyone in the Seattle area has a Pertec-interface 9-track drive they want to part with, let me know :). - Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 30 02:05:21 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 00:05:21 -0700 Subject: Eprom programming current... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBBB4B1.9080306@brouhaha.com> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Hey! Would 150ma be enough current on various voltages for programming > eproms? I just got a bunch of 14 pin DIP VRMs that are rated for 150ma > output without using a bypass transistor..... > For NMOS EPROMs like the 2716 and 27128, the maximum Ipp spec was often somewhere around 30-50 mA. Of course, different vendor's parts had different specs. I haven't made a wide study of Ipp specs, so you'd have to check the datasheets for specific parts, but I suspect that few or none needed more than 100 mA. Bipolar PROMs, on the other hand, typically need a lot of current. The 82S129 needs up to 400 mA for Vccp, and up to 220 mA into the data output pins. Eric From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 23:02:43 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 01:02:43 -0300 Subject: new here References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> <4DB9BD47.2020003@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D20DE6C00E04BA88D4BA5E2267528A1@portajara> > Uhhh, okay. > You're definitely not the most clean or the most organized, though, huh? > :) Who cares? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 30 03:23:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 04:23:39 -0400 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU Message-ID: <380-22011463082339786@M2W137.mail2web.com> > > I will add some diagnostic wires to the board as you suggest, I don't > remember a lot about TTL chips, is there a convention about which are the > power pins? > > In the meantime someone else told me that the click I would hear when > connecting to the mains (before switching it on with the key) was some kind > of relay. I don't hear that anymore, would that help to isolate the problem > at all? OK, I am looking at the schemaitcs... I will take the referenes from this manual on bitsavers, since I guess we all have access to it. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf This is a complex PSU, and it is not obvious at first sight what is going on, but I will try... I will put page references (to that PDF) in brackets. The relay is K1 (p70). It shorts out a soft-start resistor in series with the input to the mains bridge rectifier. This produces 350V across C1/C2 in series. Now much of the PSU circuitry runs off a little SMPSU. The chopper transformer is T1 (p82). It provides about 12V across C3 (p82). Now we need to look at the 'Bias and Interface Board'. The relay is driven by E4 (p86). It's essentially a 'mains OK' circuit, the relay is energised when the votlage across the mains smoothing capacitors is high enough to trigger E3a. E3a is on the mains side of the isolation barrier, of course. But the relay driver (E4) is powered from a signal called '+5V'. This is not the +5V that you're expecting. It comes from the 7805 regulator E1 (p87). The input to that comes from that little SMPSU I've been talking about. This is isolated from the mains. The control circuitry for that is on page 88. Be warned that this circuitry is NOT isolated from the mains. It's a relatively conventional SMPSU with the control circuitry powered straight from the mains. Q1 (p88) is the chopper transistor. So, if everything's working right, this SMPSU starts up when you apply mains to the machine, the 'mains OK' circuit triggers and the relay pulls in. I would start by checking that '5V' supply, remember it's not the one to the backplane. Check it at the output of E1, for example. If it's missing, as I think it will be, you need to sort out the SMPSU I've been talking about. But let's find out if you need to do that. -tony Regards Rob -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com ? What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 30 03:23:57 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:23:57 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <00b101cc06c4$bb971860$32c54920$@ntlworld.com> References: <008401cc06a0$11ec3ad0$35c4b070$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 29, 11 08:03:02 pm <00b101cc06c4$bb971860$32c54920$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00ca01cc070f$f4a7c000$ddf74000$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 30 April 2011 00:25 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 29 April 2011 22:02 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > > > > > > I took the plunge and put in the CPU modules (M7133 and M7134) into > > > the PDP11/24. The machine powered up and the DC ON light came on, > > > suggesting voltages were in tolerance. So I connected a terminal and > > > got > > an ODT prompt. > > > I then tried to run a basic diagnostic (using the ODT command > > > 165000G). It came back to the prompt and I was just entering another > > > command when I heard a vague click and the machine powered off. I > > cannot power it on now. > > > Previously after connecting it to the mains I would hear a slight > > > click, but I don't even hear that now and turning the key will not > > > even start the fans running. > > > > > > Oh $deity... > > > > I am actually not too suprised about the fans if nothing else is working. > > As I mentioned earlier, the fans run off a 36V DC output from the > > memory switch-mode PSU. So if everythign is dead, the fans don't run > either... > > > > > > > > However power is getting to the big capacitors because I can see > > > that with my multimeter, so it is not the external fuse or the > > > circuit breaker I think. Presumably some internal fuse has gone, I > > > will leave it to discharge > > > > I don't remember any inernal fuses... > > > > I am going to have to look at the prints, but from what I remembr, > > there's soem control circuiry on the leftmost PCB in the PSU unit. > > This is powered form a small SMPSU circuit. I think I would chekc that > > that is gettign > power > > first. Pehaps solder som wires ot the power pins of one of the TTL > > chips inthe control section, put the PCB back in place, conenct said > > wires ot a voltmeter, attempt to power up and see if you get 5V to > > power said TTL chip. > > > > -tony > > I will add some diagnostic wires to the board as you suggest, I don't > remember a lot about TTL chips, is there a convention about which are the > power pins? > > In the meantime someone else told me that the click I would hear when > connecting to the mains (before switching it on with the key) was some kind > of relay. I don't hear that anymore, would that help to isolate the problem at > all? > > Regards > > Rob I have extracted the leftmost board, which is a 5413605, according to printset that is a "bias and interface" board. Looking at where it is mounted in the PSU, it *appears* to be connected to the fan spade connectors, so would be involved in powering the fans (the motherboard printset would seem to confirm that). There is a 74LS00 chip on it to which I will attach wires to Vcc and Ground so I can test if for power. I followed the Vcc track on the back of the board and it does not appear to go to the boards "backplane" connectors. I tried to read the printset to see which pin(s) on the connector the power comes in on but I don't understand the conventions about which pin is pin 1 on the connectors, so I can't at the moment add wires for that. I will go ahead and add wires to the 74LS00 in the meantime. Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 30 03:32:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 04:32:56 -0400 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU Message-ID: <380-22011463083256796@M2W116.mail2web.com> > I will add some diagnostic wires to the board as you suggest, I don't > remember a lot about TTL chips, is there a convention about which are the > power pins? Conventionally the corner pins (on a 14 pin device, for example, pin 14 is +5V, pin 7 is ground). But there are exceptions. A TTL databook, or a way of reading the data sheets on-line is almost essential :-) The power distribution arrangements are shown on page 11 of that pdf manual I mentioned : http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf Look at the '11/24 Power Distribution BD' part of the schematic. There's a +5V line coming from the PSU and ending up on pins 1 and 4 of the backplane sockets and a separate +5VB going to pin 12 of those sockets. Of course you need to fix the PSU before you can start sorting that out. -tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web LIVE ? Free email based on Microsoft? Exchange technology - http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 30 03:37:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 04:37:56 -0400 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU Message-ID: <380-22011463083756999@M2W119.mail2web.com> > I have extracted the leftmost board, which is a 5413605, according to > printset that is a "bias and interface" board. Looking at where it is > mounted in the PSU, it *appears* to be connected to the fan spade > connectors, so would be involved in powering the fans (the motherboard > printset would seem to confirm that). There is a 74LS00 chip on it to which > I will attach wires to Vcc and Ground so I can test if for power. I followed > the Vcc track on the back of the board and it does not appear to go to the > boards "backplane" connectors. I tried to read the printset to see which > pin(s) on the connector the power comes in on but I don't understand the > conventions about which pin is pin 1 on the connectors, so I can't at the > moment add wires for that. I will go ahead and add wires to the 74LS00 in > the meantime. See my other messages :-) The 5V line you are interested in comes from a 7805 regulator (TO220 package, looks like a power transistor) on that PCB. I suspect it does power the 74LS00 you mention too... The ground for this supply is the same as the machine's logic ground (this will not be the case if we have to sort out the control circuitry of that little SMPSU). Yes, the fan full-H driver circuit is on this PCB, so it's not suprising it's connected to the fan terminals. -tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web.com - Microsoft? Exchange solutions from a leading provider - http://link.mail2web.com/Business/Exchange From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 30 05:11:17 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:11:17 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <380-22011463082339786@M2W137.mail2web.com> References: <380-22011463082339786@M2W137.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <00cb01cc071e$f3ba7c00$db2f7400$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Sent: 30 April 2011 09:24 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > > > > I will add some diagnostic wires to the board as you suggest, I don't > > remember a lot about TTL chips, is there a convention about which are > > the power pins? > > > > In the meantime someone else told me that the click I would hear when > > connecting to the mains (before switching it on with the key) was some > kind > > of relay. I don't hear that anymore, would that help to isolate the > problem > > at all? > > OK, I am looking at the schemaitcs... I will take the referenes from this > manual on bitsavers, since I guess we all have access to it. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug8 > 0.pdf > > This is a complex PSU, and it is not obvious at first sight what is going on, > but I will try... I will put page references (to that PDF) in brackets. > > The relay is K1 (p70). It shorts out a soft-start resistor in series with the > input to the mains bridge rectifier. This produces 350V across C1/C2 in > series. > > Now much of the PSU circuitry runs off a little SMPSU. The chopper > transformer is T1 (p82). It provides about 12V across C3 (p82). > > Now we need to look at the 'Bias and Interface Board'. The relay is driven by > E4 (p86). It's essentially a 'mains OK' circuit, the relay is energised when the > votlage across the mains smoothing capacitors is high enough to trigger E3a. > E3a is on the mains side of the isolation barrier, of course. But the relay > driver (E4) is powered from a signal called '+5V'. This is not the +5V that > you're expecting. It comes from the 7805 regulator E1 (p87). The input to > that comes from that little SMPSU I've been talking about. This is isolated > from the mains. > > The control circuitry for that is on page 88. Be warned that this circuitry is > NOT isolated from the mains. It's a relatively conventional SMPSU with the > control circuitry powered straight from the mains. Q1 (p88) is the chopper > transistor. > > So, if everything's working right, this SMPSU starts up when you apply mains > to the machine, the 'mains OK' circuit triggers and the relay pulls in. > > I would start by checking that '5V' supply, remember it's not the one to the > backplane. Check it at the output of E1, for example. If it's missing, as I think > it will be, you need to sort out the SMPSU I've been talking about. > But > let's find out if you need to do that. > > -tony > > > > Regards > > Rob > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint When I was looking at Bias and Interface board I realised that the +5V must indeed be coming from elsewhere as the tracks are not even connected (directly) to the PSU motherboard. As you suspected, the output of E1 is 0V. Regards Rob From oe5ewl at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 08:27:57 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:27:57 +0200 Subject: Free (Seattle) - M4 Data 9-track drive In-Reply-To: <4DBBB491.3060603@mail.msu.edu> References: <4DBBB491.3060603@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: sigh. i'm too far away. seems to be a nice gadget. anyone wants to get rid of a 9track drive in austria/southern germany? i'd happily give the drive a nice, warm and dry home. -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/4/30 Josh Dersch : > I've got what I'm fairly sure is some model of M4-Data 9-track drive in a > "desktop" enclosure, relabeled as an "Interface Data, Inc." drive. ?It's > similar, but not identical, to the 9914 for which there is documentation on > Bitsavers. ?It appears to do 1600 and 3200 BPI (not sure what encodings.) > ?It has a Differential SCSI interface option, along with a Pertec interface. > ?It's labeled on the back as "Model No. 9946." > > I have some pictures I took when I first got it (it hasn't changed much > since then) at: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/9-track/ > > The tape transport seems to be working fine (it loads and unloads, moves to > BOT and rewinds just as I'd expect. ?The auto-loading procedure on these > drives always seems magical to me...) but there's something wrong with the > digital side of things. ?I've made a few attempts over the past couple of > years to use the Pertec interface (with the Diff SCSI interface removed) but > all reads result in parity errors. ?It may just be a configuration issue -- > there are tons of configurable settings via the front panel -- but I lack > the documentation to know what they are (they are not the same as the 9914's > as far as I can tell) or to do any other testing. > > Picked this up almost three years ago (time flies!) and it's just been > taking up space. ?Time to get it out of here. ?Anyone want it? ?It's free! > ?Pickup only in the Seattle area. ?And if anyone in the Seattle area has a > Pertec-interface 9-track drive they want to part with, let me know :). > > - Josh > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 30 09:40:08 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:40:08 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <00cb01cc071e$f3ba7c00$db2f7400$@ntlworld.com> References: <380-22011463082339786@M2W137.mail2web.com> <00cb01cc071e$f3ba7c00$db2f7400$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00d301cc0744$821f1f30$865d5d90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 30 April 2011 11:11 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > Sent: 30 April 2011 09:24 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > > > > > > > > I will add some diagnostic wires to the board as you suggest, I > > > don't remember a lot about TTL chips, is there a convention about > > > which are the power pins? > > > > > > In the meantime someone else told me that the click I would hear > > > when connecting to the mains (before switching it on with the key) > > > was some > > kind > > > of relay. I don't hear that anymore, would that help to isolate the > > problem > > > at all? > > > > OK, I am looking at the schemaitcs... I will take the referenes from > > this manual on bitsavers, since I guess we all have access to it. > > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug8 > > 0.pdf > > > > This is a complex PSU, and it is not obvious at first sight what is > > going > on, > > but I will try... I will put page references (to that PDF) in brackets. > > > > The relay is K1 (p70). It shorts out a soft-start resistor in series > > with > the > > input to the mains bridge rectifier. This produces 350V across C1/C2 > > in series. > > > > Now much of the PSU circuitry runs off a little SMPSU. The chopper > > transformer is T1 (p82). It provides about 12V across C3 (p82). > > > > Now we need to look at the 'Bias and Interface Board'. The relay is > > driven > by > > E4 (p86). It's essentially a 'mains OK' circuit, the relay is > > energised > when the > > votlage across the mains smoothing capacitors is high enough to > > trigger > E3a. > > E3a is on the mains side of the isolation barrier, of course. But the > relay > > driver (E4) is powered from a signal called '+5V'. This is not the +5V > that > > you're expecting. It comes from the 7805 regulator E1 (p87). The input > > to that comes from that little SMPSU I've been talking about. This is > isolated > > from the mains. > > > > The control circuitry for that is on page 88. Be warned that this > circuitry is > > NOT isolated from the mains. It's a relatively conventional SMPSU with > > the control circuitry powered straight from the mains. Q1 (p88) is the > > chopper transistor. > > > > So, if everything's working right, this SMPSU starts up when you apply > mains > > to the machine, the 'mains OK' circuit triggers and the relay pulls in. > > > > I would start by checking that '5V' supply, remember it's not the one > > to > the > > backplane. Check it at the output of E1, for example. If it's missing, > > as > I think > > it will be, you need to sort out the SMPSU I've been talking about. > > But > > let's find out if you need to do that. > > > > -tony > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > mail2web.com - What can On Demand Business Solutions do for you? > > http://link.mail2web.com/Business/SharePoint > > > When I was looking at Bias and Interface board I realised that the +5V must > indeed be coming from elsewhere as the tracks are not even connected > (directly) to the PSU motherboard. As you suspected, the output of E1 is 0V. > > Regards > > Rob I added more wires at the input to E1 and also at the input to D9. Unless I made a mistake or did it somehow wrong, they were both 0V as well. Looking at the printset I suspect that this means the problem is on the PSU motherboard. Could it be the transformer T1 on p83? Regards Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 30 09:49:19 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 07:49:19 -0700 Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBC216F.9060808@bitsavers.org> On 4/29/11 9:38 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> William Donzelli was the first to respond, so he's getting the paper copy. >> Since a number of other folks were interested, I went ahead and scanned it: > > Al will probably get to scan it if he wants anyway. > > And I have a bunch of CDC and General Automation manuals that he may > want to scan with me over the next few days. Meet this Sunday? > OK, my radio show ends at 3, so I won't be back at CHM until 3:30 Pizza Nite is on Monday. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 10:15:01 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:15:01 -0400 Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual In-Reply-To: <4DBC216F.9060808@bitsavers.org> References: <4DBC216F.9060808@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Pizza Nite is on Monday. It might be better to give you the stuff Monday. -- Will From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Apr 30 11:54:16 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 11:54:16 -0500 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBC3EB8.9040606@tx.rr.com> On 4/29/2011 8:18 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Check it out: http://telehack.com > > @ basic > Darthmouth DTSS TeleBASIC (c) 1964,1966,1969,1970,1971,1979 >> > > Blows my mind. :) > > g. > > I love it! Later, Charlie C. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 30 13:49:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:49:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <20110429200945.X89626@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 29, 11 08:25:36 pm Message-ID: > Model 4 > same as model 3, but 80 x 24 video, memory mappable to 64K contiguous The logic voard of a M4 could accept 128K of RAM. Yes, you could only have 64K in the CPU memory map at a time, and AFIAK very little application software made use of the 'extra' memory. It was commonly used fo a RAMdisk or print spooler. > CP/M 3.0 available from Radio Shack (8? x 512), but didn't catch on Unless you wanted to run CP/M software (which is, I agree, a pretty big reason), TRS-DOS (LS-DOS) was a much micer OS that CP/M. I have M4 CP/M somewhere, I think I booted it once, but that was it. I still use my H4, but under TRS-DOS. > > Model 4P > same as model 4, in a Compaq like luggable case Same disk format and OS, sure, but there are a few hardware differences. The main one is that the 4P only existed as a disk system (the plain M4 could exist without disks, running ROM BASIC and using a cassette tape for storage), and as such it didn't have the BASIC ROMs, only a simnple bootstrap ROM. There was a file on the TRS-DOS master disk that would effectively load a ROM image into the bottom part of RAM so as to be able to run softeware that expected said ROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 30 13:43:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:43:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: <4DBB7978.5040804@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 30, 11 03:52:40 am Message-ID: > > On 30/04/11 02:29, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 30 Apr 2011 at 1:09, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > >> Hmm. I've got it listed as "TRS-80 Model 4P" in my catalogue. Maybe I > >> need to feed it through one of the decoders and see what happens... > > > > Well, there *was* a Mod 4 CP/M format that was 8 sectors of 512 > > bytes, but no 9 AFAIK. > > 18/256 looks more likely. > > The head-zero tracks all have far more than 9 sectors on them. With so > many sectors it's hard to tell, but 18 seems plausible based on the > inter-sector gaps. > > Those 9/512 sectors look suspiciously like DOS 360K tracks... though > what I don't get is why every track is formatted like that. DOS 360K is > only 40 tracks. Unless it was read in a 40-track drive..? The original TRS-80 5.25" drives (even as late as the M4) were, by default, single-sided, and formated to 35 tracks only. Needless to say everybody formatted them to 40 traceks to get a bit more storage capactiy (I've yet to fidn a M3 or M4 fitted with drives that couldn't handle 40 tracks). My guess is that what you have is a pre-formatted PC disk which was reformatted for use on the TRS-80. This would expalin why side 1 has a PC-like format. The M4 version of TRS-DOS (which is LS-DOS, really), and the disk contorller hardware, can easily hadnle 80 cylinder drives and double-sided operation. Many TRS-80s had such drives added to them (although keeping a 40 cylinder drive as :0 (the boot drive) was also common for compatibility). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 30 13:55:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:55:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <00cb01cc071e$f3ba7c00$db2f7400$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 30, 11 11:11:17 am Message-ID: > When I was looking at Bias and Interface board I realised that the +5V must > indeed be coming from elsewhere as the tracks are not even connected > (directly) to the PSU motherboard. As you suspected, the output of E1 is 0V. Well that certainly expalins why the relay isn't firing, and why the PSU is dead (no power to a lot of the control logic). What is the input to E1 (the 7805)? My guess is 0V again, which means we have to do battle with an SMPSU (and one where a lot of the circuitry is directly connected to the mains). On the other hand, it's worth checking in case you're lucky and it's just the 7805 that's failed. Incidentally, where are you based? I assume from the terms you use that you're in the UK. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 30 14:25:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:25:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <00d301cc0744$821f1f30$865d5d90$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 30, 11 03:40:08 pm Message-ID: > I added more wires at the input to E1 and also at the input to D9. Unless I You beat me to it ;-). That was what my last message (sent a few minutes ago suggested). > made a mistake or did it somehow wrong, they were both 0V as well. Looking > at the printset I suspect that this means the problem is on the PSU > motherboard. Could it be the transformer T1 on p83? It could be the transformer, but it's unlikely. The trap for the unwary (and it caught me the first time) is to assume that T1 is a normal mains transofmrer. It isn't. It's the transformer of a switch-mode power supply. The clue is that one end of the primary widnign fo this transfotmer goes to the rail that DEC call '300V', that is the positive side of the mains smoothing capacitors. Most of the circuitry for this SMPSU is on the bias and interface PCB. I think I mentioned the chopper transistor in one of my earlier messages. I would start by checking that. If it's shorted, then soem other components, or mnaybe even PCB tracks, will be open. I will try to think of some sensible tests to do on this circuit. The main problem is that it's not isolated from the mains, so you cna;t just clip a 'scope onto it. If you try that at the very least you'll blow fuses, more likely you'll do more damage to the unit (and to the 'scope probe). But as I said, start by finding nad checking the chopper transistor. -tony From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 14:35:28 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 14:35:28 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <5EBD25F0774A4F949232618EC897A2A5@portajara> References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> <5EBD25F0774A4F949232618EC897A2A5@portajara> Message-ID: a20a1 87 accord motor block with million miles on it sitting weighting for new rings as it smokes the tire is off the same car handy talker is just a old ge also got a bunch of motorolas something machean the black thing on the shelf? thats some sorta low frequency genirator from the 40's my dad built this work bench i just taken it over since he left all his stuff my understanding about the motorola spool thing is it was ment for old school computer wire wraping i know i have tools for that stuff somewhere. theres also a really early ibm laptop sitting on the bench On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > also i'm prolly one of the better equipped noobs out there >>> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2283433918_ffed8c7518_o.jpg >>> >> > Man, the guy does some serious stuff on that table! :oD > > But why the tire and the motor block (seems a VW one) below it? I also > see a very old Handy talker, a nice wire display from motorola, and a > something-machine on the far corner of the photo :D You like wire, eh? lots > and lots of wire spools around! :D > From vintagecoder at aol.com Sat Apr 30 15:17:27 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 20:17:27 +0000 Subject: Tektronix photos updated Message-ID: <201104302017.p3UKHUlv010513@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> Richard wrote: >> I wonder if the MCAUTO label on your keyboard means McDonnell Douglas >> Automation. > Yes, I believe it is. We discussed this on the length some time ago when > I first got this terminal and that was aour conclusion from that > discussion. I haven't done any independent research on it yet, but it > seems reasonable to me. Sorry about that. I was either not a list member yet or I missed the discussion. >> I personally would love to have a 4051, does anybody remember those? > I have one 4051 that needs some keycaps and some electrical repair before > its functional. Also, I would like to create some sort of replacement > for the cartridge tape drive for loading software from disk image files. > That's a hardware project that's on my list. Yes, the cartridge tapes were really nice on those units. Somewhere I've got a few tapes with some old code on them. Good luck with all that! Really nice unit that 4051. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 30 15:47:48 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:47:48 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <00cb01cc071e$f3ba7c00$db2f7400$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 30, 11 11:11:17 am Message-ID: <010401cc0777$df5da260$9e18e720$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 30 April 2011 19:56 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > When I was looking at Bias and Interface board I realised that the +5V > > must indeed be coming from elsewhere as the tracks are not even > > connected > > (directly) to the PSU motherboard. As you suspected, the output of E1 is > 0V. > > Well that certainly expalins why the relay isn't firing, and why the PSU is > dead (no power to a lot of the control logic). > > What is the input to E1 (the 7805)? My guess is 0V again, which means we > have to do battle with an SMPSU (and one where a lot of the circuitry is > directly connected to the mains). On the other hand, it's worth checking in > case you're lucky and it's just the 7805 that's failed. > > Incidentally, where are you based? I assume from the terms you use that > you're in the UK. Manchester. From what I recall from earlier emails you are in London, correct? > > -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 30 16:18:13 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 22:18:13 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <00d301cc0744$821f1f30$865d5d90$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 30, 11 03:40:08 pm Message-ID: <010501cc077c$1eb3a2d0$5c1ae870$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 30 April 2011 20:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > I added more wires at the input to E1 and also at the input to D9. > > Unless I > > You beat me to it ;-). That was what my last message (sent a few minutes > ago suggested). > > > made a mistake or did it somehow wrong, they were both 0V as well. > > Looking at the printset I suspect that this means the problem is on > > the PSU motherboard. Could it be the transformer T1 on p83? > > It could be the transformer, but it's unlikely. The trap for the unwary (and it > caught me the first time) is to assume that T1 is a normal mains > transofmrer. It isn't. It's the transformer of a switch-mode power supply. > The clue is that one end of the primary widnign fo this transfotmer goes to > the rail that DEC call '300V', that is the positive side of the mains smoothing > capacitors. > > Most of the circuitry for this SMPSU is on the bias and interface PCB. I think I > mentioned the chopper transistor in one of my earlier messages. I would > start by checking that. If it's shorted, then soem other components, or > mnaybe even PCB tracks, will be open. > > I will try to think of some sensible tests to do on this circuit. The main > problem is that it's not isolated from the mains, so you cna;t just clip a > 'scope onto it. If you try that at the very least you'll blow fuses, more likely > you'll do more damage to the unit (and to the 'scope probe). > > But as I said, start by finding nad checking the chopper transistor. > > -tony If I am not mistaken, the chopper transistor you are referring to is Q1 (p88). I checked the resistance with the component still soldered onto the board. Looking at it from the front (with a plate behind connected to what looks like a diode), the resistance between the middle and the left pin was 170Kohm (or 1Mohm, the multimeter scaling confuses me somewhat, I get different numbers depending on whether I put the dial on 200K or 2M, either I don't know how to use it properly or it is not a very good multimeter), the resistance between the middle and the right pin is about 2Mohm. The resistance between the left and right pins is about 90ohms. Not sure how valid it is to check these with the component in circuit though. Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 30 17:47:59 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 15:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Discferret] Latest DiscFerret beta software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110430153446.L17662@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 30 Apr 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > The logic voard of a M4 could accept 128K of RAM. Yes, you could only > have 64K in the CPU memory map at a time, and AFIAK very little > application software made use of the 'extra' memory. It was commonly used > fo a RAMdisk or print spooler. Many CP/M machines with 128K used it to be able to expand the TPA from about 53K up to about 63K. > > Model 4P > > same as model 4, in a Compaq like luggable case > > Same disk format and OS, sure, but there are a few hardware differences. > The main one is that the 4P only existed as a disk system (the plain M4 > could exist without disks, running ROM BASIC and using a cassette tape > for storage), and as such it didn't have the BASIC ROMs, only a simnple > bootstrap ROM. There was a file on the TRS-DOS master disk that would > effectively load a ROM image into the bottom part of RAM so as to be able > to run softeware that expected said ROM. I didn't know about the lack of the BASIC ROMs. 'course, I can always fall back on, "I was only talking about the disk format" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 18:57:42 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 18:57:42 -0500 Subject: Have: Control Data 8528 digital communications terminal reference manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:05 PM, Richard wrote: > Can you PDF-ize it too? Done. Created PDF and OCR'd it. Upload that and the original zip of TIFFs to: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/CDC From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 30 19:35:49 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 17:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: 13 3m cat5 cables Message-ID: I have 13 3-meter cat5 cables by Belkin in blister packs that are just taking up room. I have plenty of cat5 already. Please take them off my hands. Free for shipping! I'm in California. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From vrs at msn.com Sat Apr 30 19:53:34 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 17:53:34 -0700 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, this just went way beyond the pale. One of the systems in the simulated network is "littlei", which was a news and mail server back in the day, run by Intel Corporation. I just managed to hack my way into simulated littlei, and did "cat /etc/passwd". And damned if that isn't something very like the actual passwd file of littlei. All of the standard XENIX accounts are there. My account and several of my co-workers accounts are there. Along with their real names and encrypted passwords (which I haven't yet checked for accuracy). How the hell did they get that!? Vince From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 20:55:20 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 21:55:20 -0400 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is all very cool but I'm a bit confused about what it actually is? Is it a hacking themed game? Is it just a cool toy to play with computers as they were back in the day? What OS is it supposed to be running (the starting host seems to be a sort of hybrid of TOPS-10, Unix and VM/CMS)? Who even put it together? So many questions, so few answers... Mike From vrs at msn.com Sat Apr 30 21:57:44 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 19:57:44 -0700 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > This is all very cool but I'm a bit confused about what it actually > is? Is it a hacking themed game? Is it just a cool toy to play with > computers as they were back in the day? What OS is it supposed to be > running (the starting host seems to be a sort of hybrid of TOPS-10, > Unix and VM/CMS)? Who even put it together? So many questions, so few > answers... It works as a hacking themed game. I don't know if that was their intent, but it seems like it to me. I did figure out a way that they might be getting their passwd files. It looks sort of like they are scraping postings from the usenet archives, and putting together login names with systems from back in the day. Vince From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Apr 30 22:20:45 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 22:20:45 -0500 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201105010321.p413L7n5085667@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:57 PM 4/30/2011, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >I did figure out a way that they might be getting their passwd files. >It looks sort of like they are scraping postings from the usenet archives, and putting together login names with systems from back in the day. Well, get to cracking. The other day a client asked me to recover the passwords from a 90s-era AIX machine. In less than twenty minutes, a cracking tool had recovered all fourteen account passwords. The first thirteen appeared almost immediately; the last took a while. - John From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 22:49:07 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 22:49:07 -0500 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 8:55 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > Unix and VM/CMS)? Who even put it together? So many questions, so few > answers... Some clues are to be found in the author/creator's Twitter feed... http://twitter.com/#!/telehack -- jht