From ama at ugr.es Sat May 1 06:30:39 2010 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 13:30:39 +0200 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <20100430091739.df578875.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20100501113039.GA12507@darwin.ugr.es> Hello Tony, everybody: I also still use floppies (3 1/2" and 3" on Amstrad CPC) for some of my data. I also keep a few 3 1/2 and 5 1/4 drives, as well as a couple of ZIP drives. Every now and then, some people show up and ask me to help them recover some old data stored in some old media. The last one was a ZIP drive, and the previous one was a set of five 5 1/4" disks. On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 08:08:42PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I acutally wonder if they bother to align such drives > at the factory, the price makes me wonder if they can, and tests on a > couple of such drives indicate they're not aligned properly... Tony, is it easy to realign them? I would like to keep them in optimal condition (what I do now is clean them, and keep them in a plastic bag, to preserve them from getting dust, and put them into a box for storage on a clean, dry place. I would like to realign them properly before I put them in use again, if it's something easy to do that I can do myself. Also, any other advices on how to preserve, clean, store, etc. them I would appreciate. :-) Thank you and regards, ?ngel. From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 1 12:12:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 10:12:46 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDADEA7.18149.FC65D4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4BDADEA7.18149.FC65D4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> Looking forward, is there *any* reason that someone would want removable storage? Consider that even today, a computer will have little use if it's not networked. I used to send a *lot* of floppies out via traditional mail. Now, the only time I do this is when a customer requests his original media returned. Most don't even want a CD-R or DVD-R with their data, being content to get it via email or ftp. Removable media, be it SD card, flash drive, floppy or CD-ROM is expensive when compared to non-removable media, which can take advantage of being integrated into an overall design. Best regards, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 1 12:59:43 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 18:59:43 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDADEA7.18149.FC65D4@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 6:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Looking forward, is there *any* reason that someone would want > removable storage? ?Consider that even today, a computer will have > little use if it's not networked. > > I used to send a *lot* of floppies out via traditional mail. ?Now, > the only time I do this is when a customer requests his original > media returned. ?Most don't even want a CD-R or DVD-R with their > data, being content to get it via email or ftp. > > Removable media, be it SD card, flash drive, floppy or CD-ROM is > expensive when compared to non-removable media, which can take > advantage of being integrated into an overall design. Indeed. Probably not. I reckon rotating media will fade away for most people in a few years, in the medium term followed by desktop computers, followed by full-function notebooks and full-function general-purpose OSs. The individual PC itself is probably going to go away, except for power users. Q.v. http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/why-steve-jobs-hates-flash.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 1 13:58:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 11:58:59 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2010 at 18:59, Liam Proven wrote: > Q.v. > http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/why-steve-jobs-hat > es-flash.html Liam, thank you very much for the blog article. If we will become a cloud-oriented computing society, there will certainly be profound social consequences. >From a personal retrospective, this desktop PC that I'm sitting in front of, although not very old, seems like a conceptual antique compared to where we've been in the last 50 or so years. --Chuck From spc at conman.org Sat May 1 15:08:56 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 16:08:56 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BDADEA7.18149.FC65D4@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100501200855.GA30289@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > Looking forward, is there *any* reason that someone would want > removable storage? Consider that even today, a computer will have > little use if it's not networked. I currently carry I USB memory stick with authentication credentials (signed certificates) that will allow me to log into the servers at work (via ssh) and access some critical areas of The Company website (Apache client side authentication). I do that because I may find myself elsewhere and have to use whatever computer is at my disposal to log in at work. -spc (Who finds the iPhone/iPod interesting, but way too small for ssh work ...) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 1 13:28:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 19:28:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDADEA7.18149.FC65D4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 30, 10 01:44:07 pm Message-ID: > > I see nothing particularly wrong with that last requiremnt. It would > > make the thing a lot easier to maintain. > > His requirement was for 200 units. Ever try to find that many new Ah, you didn't specify the quantity... > through-hole mount floppy controller ICs with about an equal number > kept in the parts crib for replacements? Would a PLCC chip in a through-hole socket count? That might be a bit easier to find. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 1 13:50:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 19:50:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <20100501113039.GA12507@darwin.ugr.es> from "Angel Martin Alganza" at May 1, 10 01:30:39 pm Message-ID: > > I acutally wonder if they bother to align such drives=20 > > at the factory, the price makes me wonder if they can, and tests on a=20 > > couple of such drives indicate they're not aligned properly... > > Tony, is it easy to realign them? I would like to keep them in The basic procedure is the same for all drives. You conenc the drive to some device that will let you move the heads to a given cylinder (either the machine the drive works with running a suisable program that talks to the disk cotnroller, or a special floppy drive exerciser). You monitor the output of the read amplifier (notmally using a 'scope). And you put in a special 'catseye' alignment disk. Then you step to the right cylinder and look at the read signal. It should have 2 lobes Yiu loosen the head positioner moutings nad moce the positioner until the 2 lobes have the smae amplitude. Clamp up the positioner moutings and you're done Now for the problems. The first is getting the alignment disk. They are not commn (particularly the 3" one), they are not cheap, and they can't be copied (for obvious reasons). The second is that uou normally need a 'scope. And you need to find where to connect this 'scope to the drive electronics (the signals you need are the output of the index sensor as a trigger and the differential outputs of the read amplidier). FInally moving the positioner may be non-trivial. It's a delicate adjustment, some manufacturers made speical tookls to make it easier -- but it's possible to manange without them. There was a produict called the 'microtest' that did away with the need for a 'scope. It was a microcotnroller + ADC that linked ot a PC [1] serial port. You connected the drive as drive B: o nthe PC (with adapters for 8" drives, etc), and ran the suppleid software. You selected the drive type from a menu, it showed you where to connec the test clips coming from the ADC box, and then you put an alignment disk in the drive. You could see how far off-alignment it was on the PC screen and adjust appropriately. [[1] The minimum spec was 256K RAM and a serial port. And any display adapter, even MDA. The problem with the microtest is that (a) it only works for drives that it knows about (which means not many modern ones..) and (b) the instrument is not common. I was given one, and I use it for my older drives. but for the modern drives I have to us a 'scope. Actually the bigest problem is finding the testpoints. On old drives, with simple chips (733s, 592s, etc) in the read chain it's pretty easy to spot them. If you have the service manual (again more likely for older drives) they will be shown. Most modern drives do have said testpoints, if only as solder blobs on the PCB, but it can be a pian to work out which poits to use. They are rarely marked. > optimal condition (what I do now is clean them, and keep them in a > plastic bag, to preserve them from getting dust, and put them into a I would certianly use an anti-static bag! > box for storage on a clean, dry place. I would like to realign them > properly before I put them in use again, if it's something easy to do > that I can do myself. I don't worry about doing it if I have the right size alignment disk and have some idea of the testpoints. For example when I was cleaning up an HP9836CU I didn't worry about totally stripping the floppy drives (losing the alignment)[2] because realigning them was not going to be a problem. As I mentioned, when I bought my last floppy drive 15 years ago, I also bought the service manual, wghich of course shows the testpoints. [2] Althought I did scratch amarks on various parts of the drive, I also seeked the heads to drive 0 using an exerciser and measured the clearance between the head carriage and the end stop with a feeler gauge. And I put things back ion the same positiones. This is not accurate enough to do away with the need for a proper alignment but it meant that I could at least find the right cylinder on the alignment disk :-) I've come across some more modern drives that would not reliably read disks formatted on my PC. I found what I think were the read amplifier outputs and looked at hte catseye pattern with a 'scope. It was wildly out (one lobe much larger than the other). Of course I might bave been using the wrong TPs (say with a filter circuit in one side only), but I moved the positioner to eqalise the lobes and the drive worked reliably after that. I think it ws just badly aligned. > > Also, any other advices on how to preserve, clean, store, etc. them I > would appreciate. :-) Contrary to what it says in most manuals, I have never had any problems cleanin the heads on any type of floppy drive uisng a cotton bud dipped in propan-2-ol. You have to be careful not to distort the gimbal spring for the upper head, but it's quite easy to avoid doing this. Do you have any particular makes nad models of drives in mind? If we can track doewn service manuals it would help... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 1 16:38:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 14:38:50 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BDADEA7.18149.FC65D4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 30, 10 01:44:07 pm, Message-ID: <4BDC3CFA.1728.11E3633@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2010 at 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: > Would a PLCC chip in a through-hole socket count? That might be a bit > easier to find. Maybe--but even Intel 82077/NS 8477 controllers are pretty thin on the ground nowadays. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 1 19:32:06 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 01:32:06 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 7:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 May 2010 at 18:59, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Q.v. >> http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/why-steve-jobs-hat >> es-flash.html > > Liam, thank you very much for the blog article. ?If we will become a > cloud-oriented computing society, there will certainly be profound > social consequences. You're very welcome. Glad you liked it. As it happens, Charlie is a friend of mine, but that aside, I think he is a very incisive and perceptive writer. > >From a personal retrospective, this desktop PC that I'm sitting in > front of, although not very old, seems like a conceptual antique > compared to where we've been in the last 50 or so years. Well, that is very true, sadly. For all that people are dazzled by the speed and the technical capabilities, software has not come /nearly/ as far as hardware in the last 40y, meaning that we all run fairly poor, half-assed reimplementations of 1960s software on our multi-gigahertz multi-gigabyte 64-bit multiprocessor monster machines with terabytes of storage. It's a crying shame. So in time, they will be replaced with personalised gadgets which are continually online to all the information in the world, stored in flat databases that aren't even relational, accessed by massively-parallel search engines to make them usable. Individual privacy, of course, will be a distant memory. Still, I'm sure they'll be very nice and shiny. (I must admit, now I have a web-capable smartphone with fast cheap wireless data, GPS and so on, I would hate to be without it. It's incredibly useful. But when I can't get at the Web, I feel horribly cut-off.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 1 19:39:00 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 17:39:00 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> On 5/1/10 11:58 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Liam, thank you very much for the blog article. If we will become a > cloud-oriented computing society, there will certainly be profound > social consequences. > I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm saddened that the company I worked for for twenty years (Apple COMPUTER) no longer exists. I understand why it's happening, it's just very sad to see the 'production' side of the product line slipping away to high volume devices geared to 'consumption' and generating a constant revenue stream under their total control. Will China start making low-margin open content products to fill the void, or would they conclude there isn't enough money to be made to bother. I've been wondering why we we haven't seen a 'kindle killer' yet from them that handles ordinary pdf. It may just be their domestic consumption is increasing fast enough that they won't bother with products for US export in the future. From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 1 19:40:40 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 01:40:40 +0100 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Chris M wrote: > ?I also need help w/G4 Macs May be able to advise there, but it's about the only bit I could help with... But desktop G4s went out in 2003. That probably doesn't make 'em "classic" but they're certainly legacy kit now... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 1 19:50:31 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 01:50:31 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 1:39 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/1/10 11:58 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Liam, thank you very much for the blog article. ?If we will become a >> cloud-oriented computing society, there will certainly be profound >> social consequences. >> > > I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm saddened that the company > I worked for for twenty years (Apple COMPUTER) no longer exists. To be honest, sadly, the beginning of the end is when they moved from PowerPC to Intel. After that, the decline into just-another-PC-maker was inevitable. However, the iPod was a company-saving product, the iPhone an inspirational game-changer, and I think that if Jobs pulls off this next transition, the company could remain a major force for some years to come. > I understand why it's happening, it's just very sad to see the 'production' > side of the product line slipping away to high volume devices geared to > 'consumption' and generating a constant revenue stream under their total > control. It's not just Apple, though. It's the whole computing-devices industry. > Will China start making low-margin open content products to fill the void, > or > would they conclude there isn't enough money to be made to bother. I've been > wondering why we we haven't seen a 'kindle killer' yet from them that > handles > ordinary pdf. I think it will be a while yet before anyone else can rival Apple's unique qualities. > It may just be their domestic consumption is increasing fast enough that > they > won't bother with products for US export in the future. Ah, well, that may be true. But within 2 to 3 decades, most of the glaciers in the Himalayas will be gone, meaning that the rivers that provide most of Asia will dry up. Big changes are coming. The world isn't going to end up speaking Chinese, I think. First, for starters, there will be a big war between the Asian countries and Russia, possibly in alliance with western Europe. That's gonna be messy. The USA won't get involved, though - it'll be too busy invading Canada. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 1 20:24:20 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 21:24:20 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> Apple lost the computer wars long before PPC ran its course, so they turned into what Sony was in the 80's and 90's (an electronics company that was cool). Thing is what kids find cool today is what the generation after that will find old, so Apple will not be around forever (anybody use a walkman anymore?). I don't worry about the passing of Apple Computer much, when none of the PC makers can make a buck on manufacturing x86 machines you know somebody will come up with something totally new and a new race will start. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sat May 1 20:26:47 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 21:26:47 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 20:50, Liam Proven wrote: > The USA won't get involved, though - it'll be too busy invading Canada. I'm not too worried: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8655651.stm They'll get as far as St-Jean-sur-Richelieu. There's a poutine shack there that'll stop the entire invasion force for Quebec (two troops and a Humvee, provided it doesn't break down on our roads) Invading BC is too dangerous for troop morale. Duuuuuuuude..... The invasion of Alberta will be a resounding success. Too bad noone notices any difference. The US army won't be able to find Toronto. How the hell do you spell "Missasgua...Missuusaah..." Oshawa? Why are we in Oshawa? And they're not entirely sure about Newfoundland either. Are they supposed to invade it? Is it part of Canada? They don't _sound_ canadian! Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat May 1 20:43:58 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 22:43:58 -0300 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> Message-ID: <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> > Apple lost the computer wars long before PPC ran its course, so they > turned into what Sony was in the 80's and 90's (an electronics company > that was cool). Thing is what kids find cool today is what the generation > after that will find old, so Apple will not be around forever (anybody use > a walkman anymore?). I respectfully disagree with you - Sony still makes great sound devices. Of course, iPod took the world by storm. - Sony makes one of the greatest videogame devices of all times. PS1 was a huge success, PS2 IS a huge success (it still sells by the truckloads in Brazil) and PS3 will be a huge success for years to come. Believe me. - Sony makes some of the greatest televisions around. What beat the Wega line? Have you compared side-by-side a wega LCD panel and a common plasma/lcd? - Sony STILL makes beauful computers. The vaio line is expensive, but beautiful. I've seen one OLED device that made me think about selling an organ. - Sony is STILL a force in professional video. So...I don't believe that sony is a cool company. I do like their products, although the difference between them and the rest got smaller. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat May 1 20:53:50 2010 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 21:53:50 -0400 Subject: H8 system offered Message-ID: <201005012153.51092.rtellason@verizon.net> A friend of mine, widoweed, has this Heath H8 system she wants gone. In fact has asked me to take it out of there. I don't have a lot of details on this at the moment, but can say that there's a dual floppy drive box, a printer, and a terminal with it, we're looking into whether there's any floppy disks or documentation around as well. A pic of the system as it currently sits can be found at: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/Heathkit%20System-03.jpg The "furniture" in the pic could go along with it, if someone wanted to pick it up locally. The system is currently located near Halifax, PA. If she decides that I need to get it out of there it'll be located later on in Palmyra, PA. Please feel free to contact me offlist, as I am not keeping up with things in here these days... My comment to her was that "I'd to my best to get this into the hands of someone that would want to use it". No dollar figure was ever mentioned but she can use all the help she can get. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 1 20:57:25 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 18:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20100501184054.K2854@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 2 May 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > First, for starters, there will be a big war between the Asian > countries and Russia, possibly in alliance with western Europe. That's > gonna be messy. > The USA won't get involved, though - it'll be too busy invading Canada. Canada before Mexico? How will Oceania side in the war between Eurasia and Eastasia? Will Apple be the developer of the iTelescreen? I understand that Amazon tried to memory-hole "1984", when they found out that it won't be public domain until 2044. From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 1 21:12:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 19:12:25 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <20100501184054.K2854@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com>, , <20100501184054.K2854@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BDC7D19.31097.218AF0D@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2010 at 18:57, Fred Cisin wrote: > I understand that Amazon tried to memory-hole "1984", when they found > out that it won't be public domain until 2044. Well, it's public domain in Australia (is it PD in Canada?). TRIPS tried to advance the doctrine of "shortest term" for international copyright protection, but that scared Disney and other vested interests, so it was weakened to "only if you want to do it that way", which no one does. I think Australia uses 50 years post morten auctoris for copyrights, while the US is 95 from publication or 75 PMA. It's a little complicated for international works, particularly when it comes to stuff from the former USSR. Amazon had obtained their e-copy from an Aussie source. You can, in fact, navigate to a .au web site and read 1984 online. Of course, that's technically illegal for US citizens... The only thing normal about copyright normalization under WTO agreements is that it isn't normal. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 1 21:24:49 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 03:24:49 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <20100501184054.K2854@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <20100501184054.K2854@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 2:57 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 2 May 2010, Liam Proven wrote: >> First, for starters, there will be a big war between the Asian >> countries and Russia, possibly in alliance with western Europe. That's >> gonna be messy. >> The USA won't get involved, though - it'll be too busy invading Canada. > Canada before Mexico? Yeah, very probably, I think. This bits of Central America that aren't submerged will probably become increasingly arid, whereas the thawing permafrost of Canada & Siberia, while releasing a trillion tons of methane - 23-24% of the northern hemisphere is permafrost and it's all starting to go *now* - will be the farmlands of the mid to late C21. > How will Oceania side in the war between Eurasia and Eastasia? Australia is already the most arid landmass and it's only going to get worse. New Zealand might be all right. I suspect it may see mass emigration from Aus, get armed to the teeth to defend itself from the people fleeing the south-eastern PacRim. But then there will be a whole mess of conflict around Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Borneo and so on - NZ might be remote enough to be all right for a good while. > Will Apple be the developer of the iTelescreen? Only after they develop and successfully patent the interocitor and the ansible. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 1 22:10:53 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 22:10:53 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1256?Q?Not_comput?= =?windows-1256?Q?ers=2C_but_c?= =?windows-1256?Q?lassic=2C_Te?= =?windows-1256?Q?k=FE?= Message-ID: Hardly a single bit of science in the past 100 years was not touched or enabled by the CRT. Our local PBS has produced a program of the history of Tektronix, it airs Monday: http://www.opb.org/programs/oregonexperience/programs/29-The-Spirit-of-Tek I am sure several of us have some of these boat anchors. I am the proud owner of a 7104, 1GHz scope. Sure, they got into computer graphics with the 4000 series terminals, and the tek protocol for vector graphics became kind of a standard. Enjoy, Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 1 22:28:05 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 20:28:05 -0700 Subject: Not computers, but classic, =?windows-1256?Q?Tek=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BDCF145.1070408@bitsavers.org> On 5/1/10 8:10 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Hardly a single bit of science in the past 100 years was not touched or > enabled by the CRT. Our local PBS has produced a program of the history > of Tektronix, it airs Monday: > Tek produced several generations of Unix workstations, as well as microprocessor development systems. They also built computer-based test and measurement systems. While not generally known for their computers, they most certainly sold them. From starbase89 at gmail.com Sat May 1 22:31:23 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 23:31:23 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Not_computers=2C_but_classic=2C_Tek=E2=80=8F?= In-Reply-To: <4BDCF145.1070408@bitsavers.org> References: <4BDCF145.1070408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Any idea if its going to be on PBS affiliates outside of Oregon? 2010/5/1 Al Kossow > On 5/1/10 8:10 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > >> >> Hardly a single bit of science in the past 100 years was not touched or >> enabled by the CRT. Our local PBS has produced a program of the history >> of Tektronix, it airs Monday: >> >> > Tek produced several generations of Unix workstations, as well as > microprocessor > development systems. They also built computer-based test and measurement > systems. > While not generally known for their computers, they most certainly sold > them. > > > -- Joseph Giliberti Jackson, New Jersey From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 2 00:01:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 22:01:55 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Not_computers,_but_classic,_Tek=E2=80=8F?= In-Reply-To: <4BDCF145.1070408@bitsavers.org> References: , <4BDCF145.1070408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BDCA4D3.31747.2B3DE97@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 May 2010 at 20:28, Al Kossow wrote: > Tek produced several generations of Unix workstations, as well as > microprocessor development systems. They also built computer-based > test and measurement systems. While not generally known for their > computers, they most certainly sold them. I believe there's also a tie-in betweenTek and Rodgers Instruments (makers of really big electronic organs). --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Sun May 2 03:36:58 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 03:36:58 -0500 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BDD39AA.90901@vaxen.net> Liam Proven wrote: > But within 2 to 3 decades, most of the glaciers in the Himalayas will > be gone, meaning that the rivers that provide most of Asia will dry > up. Big changes are coming. The world isn't going to end up speaking > Chinese, I think. > > First, for starters, there will be a big war between the Asian > countries and Russia, possibly in alliance with western Europe. That's > gonna be messy. > > The USA won't get involved, though - it'll be too busy invading Canada. AAAAAAAUUUUUUGGGH! POLITICS!!!! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 1 14:36:59 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 12:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new acquisitions Message-ID: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> IBM 7374 plotter. Missing the damned carousel. Haven't plugged it in yet, so not even sure it's functional. Something tells me, being it's an IBM, spare circuit parts, as needed, will be the least of my worries. If anyone has a junker and would let me scrounge a few items from it, I'll remember them in my prayers. Promise :). Besides pay reasonable costs + shipping. Jameco eprom/gal/pal/?/?/?. 6502 based (primarily at least). Non-functional. BUT OF COURSE. I'm not terribly worried, being I've also obtained - Tektronix 5440 scope. Already have a 2216. So the combined might of these 2 monsters of engineering will undoubtedly aid in the recuperation of the previous item. There were more then a few chips w/stickers on top, so that tells me they're likely custom logic, so I'll need some of that epoxy dissolver in additon. Or a die-grinder and a steady hand. Right? I happen to have a probe I picked up from somewhere in my garbage garage. The inputs on these 2 scopes require 1Mohm wit either 22pF or 47 pF of capacitance. What does this mean? There's simply a capacitor between the coax? The resistance part is strait forward presumably. If that's the case, then you can just jury rig an acceptable probe, no? Also picked up a big huge square HP monitor. Don't know the part # offhand, but has a datecode of 1984. First time I've seen one of these. And I've seen a lot of monitors. I'm sure I'm hoping in vain that it takes digital rgb. I also need help w/G4 Macs and Sun workstations and servers. But that's offtopic and I can look up most of that online. Just in case anyone wanted to chat about it. Offlist of course... Anyone w/any HP-UX stuff they no longer need? From jws at jwsss.com Sat May 1 21:21:33 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 01 May 2010 19:21:33 -0700 Subject: PC/ix (was a generic 486 system bid up to $105?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BDCE1AD.6050505@jwsss.com> Has anyone tried to run this on an emulator? I tried with vmware, and it isn't so happy with whatever you get there for a cpu in real mode. Just a half high CGA cursor and what appears to be 10 or 12 line video mode. I wonder if bochs could run it. I know everyone here wants to run in on their 8088's PC or XT's but it would be interesting to run w/o having to set up another system. I booted the maint disk by the way, which is an assumption I made based on experience with AIX, which also started from maint on the RT and later the RS6000. Thanks to whoever's site has them, up, looks like someone who's name I should recognize. jim On 4/30/2010 2:09 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> Now if I could just find an original copy with the docs... PC/ix had >> some awesome manuals (no man pages because of the space limitations). >> > A post toward the end of that thread was from a guy who had complete > docs; it's from 2/10, so maybe still valid? > > And if anyone gets them - please scan and contribute. I can host! > > From jlobocki at gmail.com Sat May 1 20:42:43 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 20:42:43 -0500 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <20100501113039.GA12507@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: I bought a case of (I think 1000) sony 3-1/2" floppies a few years ago, along with a few packs of different colored ones. I also bought a case of 5 1/4 disks too. i'm sure they will still be on the market after production for quite some time. as it is, there are still cassette tapes on retail store shelves! On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I acutally wonder if they bother to align such drives=20 > > > at the factory, the price makes me wonder if they can, and tests on > a=20 > > > couple of such drives indicate they're not aligned properly... > > > > Tony, is it easy to realign them? I would like to keep them in > > The basic procedure is the same for all drives. You conenc the drive to > some device that will let you move the heads to a given cylinder (either > the machine the drive works with running a suisable program that talks to > the disk cotnroller, or a special floppy drive exerciser). You monitor > the output of the read amplifier (notmally using a 'scope). And you put > in a special 'catseye' alignment disk. > > Then you step to the right cylinder and look at the read signal. It > should have 2 lobes Yiu loosen the head positioner moutings nad moce the > positioner until the 2 lobes have the smae amplitude. Clamp up the > positioner moutings and you're done > > Now for the problems. The first is getting the alignment disk. They are > not commn (particularly the 3" one), they are not cheap, and they can't > be copied (for obvious reasons). The second is that uou normally need a > 'scope. And you need to find where to connect this 'scope to the drive > electronics (the signals you need are the output of the index sensor as a > trigger and the differential outputs of the read amplidier). FInally > moving the positioner may be non-trivial. It's a delicate adjustment, > some manufacturers made speical tookls to make it easier -- but it's > possible to manange without them. > > There was a produict called the 'microtest' that did away with the need > for a 'scope. It was a microcotnroller + ADC that linked ot a PC [1] serial > port. You connected the drive as drive B: o nthe PC (with adapters for 8" > drives, etc), and ran the suppleid software. You selected the drive type > from a menu, it showed you where to connec the test clips coming from the > ADC box, and then you put an alignment disk in the drive. You could see > how far off-alignment it was on the PC screen and adjust appropriately. > > [[1] The minimum spec was 256K RAM and a serial port. And any display > adapter, even MDA. > > The problem with the microtest is that (a) it only works for drives that > it knows about (which means not many modern ones..) and (b) the > instrument is not common. I was given one, and I use it for my older > drives. but for the modern drives I have to us a 'scope. > > Actually the bigest problem is finding the testpoints. On old drives, > with simple chips (733s, 592s, etc) in the read chain it's pretty easy to > spot them. If you have the service manual (again more likely for older > drives) they will be shown. Most modern drives do have said testpoints, > if only as solder blobs on the PCB, but it can be a pian to work out > which poits to use. They are rarely marked. > > > optimal condition (what I do now is clean them, and keep them in a > > plastic bag, to preserve them from getting dust, and put them into a > > I would certianly use an anti-static bag! > > > box for storage on a clean, dry place. I would like to realign them > > properly before I put them in use again, if it's something easy to do > > that I can do myself. > > I don't worry about doing it if I have the right size alignment disk and > have some idea of the testpoints. For example when I was cleaning up an > HP9836CU I didn't worry about totally stripping the floppy drives > (losing the alignment)[2] because realigning them was not going to be a > problem. As I mentioned, when I bought my last floppy drive 15 years ago, > I also bought the service manual, wghich of course shows the testpoints. > > [2] Althought I did scratch amarks on various parts of the drive, I also > seeked the heads to drive 0 using an exerciser and measured the clearance > between the head carriage and the end stop with a feeler gauge. And I put > things back ion the same positiones. This is not accurate enough to do > away with the need for a proper alignment but it meant that I could at > least find the right cylinder on the alignment disk :-) > > I've come across some more modern drives that would not reliably read > disks formatted on my PC. I found what I think were the read amplifier > outputs and looked at hte catseye pattern with a 'scope. It was wildly > out (one lobe much larger than the other). Of course I might bave been > using the wrong TPs (say with a filter circuit in one side only), but > I moved the positioner to eqalise the lobes and the drive worked reliably > after that. I think it ws just badly aligned. > > > > > Also, any other advices on how to preserve, clean, store, etc. them I > > would appreciate. :-) > > Contrary to what it says in most manuals, I have never had any problems > cleanin the heads on any type of floppy drive uisng a cotton bud dipped > in propan-2-ol. You have to be careful not to distort the gimbal spring > for the upper head, but it's quite easy to avoid doing this. > > Do you have any particular makes nad models of drives in mind? If we can > track doewn service manuals it would help... > > -tony > From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun May 2 06:35:49 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 07:35:49 -0400 Subject: The end of microcomputers (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) Message-ID: <20100502113549.7446ABA55DE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Al wrote: > On 5/1/10 11:58 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Liam, thank you very much for the blog article. If we will become a >> cloud-oriented computing society, there will certainly be profound >> social consequences. > I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I'm saddened that the company > I worked for for twenty years (Apple COMPUTER) no longer exists. You know, I think back to 1984, when I was an avid fan of the Apple II (by then very long in the tooth) and its huge catalog of available freeware and commercial programs and plug-in peripheral and coprocessor boards. I'm not saying I was a huge fan of Apple the company, but I was a fan of the multitude of little companies that had been built around the Apple II. Then the Mac came out, which didn't even have Applesoft BASIC built in (never mind the fact that it lacked Integer BASIC!!! That's a different rant), and had no expansion bus. It wasn't obvious how to even write a program for it... the same way that every Apple II user had typed in at least a couple little BASIC programs. And how could you expand it with no expansion bus? > I understand why it's happening, it's just very sad to see the 'production' > side of the product line slipping away to high volume devices geared to > 'consumption' and generating a constant revenue stream under their total control. Again, thinking back to 1984, the thought lurking in my mind back then was similar... that Apple saw all these other companies selling software and hardware for the Apple II and had eliminated these possibilities on the Mac. I was being a little pessimistic back then, but not much. I ended up using Macs, and even hacking them a little (in terms of hardware mods and delving into at least a layer or two below the OS top level), but it was never like the hackability of an Apple II. To be fair to the S-100 vs IBM PC world, I never really liked the IBM PC either, but it did have an expansion bus, and did ship with Basic, and there was the "choice" (put in quotes intentionally) between MS-DOS and CP/M-86 and then a few others. I suppose in terms of me hacking micros, there was the "before" of the Apple II and S-100 worlds, and the "after" of the Mac and the IBM PC. In the "before" there were cool magazines like BYTE and Dr. Dobbs about true hardware and software hacking; in the "after" there were not-cool magazines telling businesspeople which software to buy (and rudely they were still called BYTE and Dr. Dobbs). I personally feel that moving thought from "IBM PC or Mac on my desk with no software that I actually wrote and no hardware that I actually hacked" to the "my world I create on the cloud and the web where I can show a schematic of this new code practice oscillator I built from a 1U5 and a 3V$ and a youtube movie of my magic eye blinker" may be an improvement over the current environment. (Just to bring in what I've been hacking this weekend). Tim. From martin.kaeser at auge.de Sun May 2 07:29:00 2010 From: martin.kaeser at auge.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=E4ser_Martin?=) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 14:29:00 +0200 Subject: ? testing Apple ProFile Message-ID: The ProFile (5 MB) spent the last years in storage. What should i do before starting the self test? The ProFile was used on either a LISA or an Apple III or an Apple II. I'd hate to test it on, say, a LISA and accidentally wipe out Apple II or III data. Is there a safe way to find out about the content? Martin K?ser From lproven at gmail.com Sun May 2 09:06:10 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 15:06:10 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDD39AA.90901@vaxen.net> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <4BDD39AA.90901@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 9:36 AM, Doc wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >> But within 2 to 3 decades, most of the glaciers in the Himalayas will >> be gone, meaning that the rivers that provide most of Asia will dry >> up. Big changes are coming. The world isn't going to end up speaking >> Chinese, I think. >> >> First, for starters, there will be a big war between the Asian >> countries and Russia, possibly in alliance with western Europe. That's >> gonna be messy. >> >> The USA won't get involved, though - it'll be too busy invading Canada. > > ? AAAAAAAUUUUUUGGGH! > > ? POLITICS!!!! What? Where? I never knowingly said anything political. I never do. But it is kinda offtopic, so I'll shut up about it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From pcw at mesanet.com Sun May 2 09:34:53 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 07:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 May 2010, Chris M wrote: > Date: Sat, 1 May 2010 12:36:59 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: new acquisitions > > I happen to have a probe I picked up from somewhere in my garbage garage. > The inputs on these 2 scopes require 1Mohm wit either 22pF or 47 pF of > capacitance. What does this mean? There's simply a capacitor between the > coax? The resistance part is strait forward presumably. If that's the case, > then you can just jury rig an acceptable probe, no? > It means the input of the scope has 1 M resistance in parallel with 22 or 47 pF of capacitance. This means that a 10-1 probe for example would need to be adjustable to accomodate this input impedance. Probes are usually marked with what input capacitance range they can drive (The 1M resistance is standard for all high impedance probes) Peter Wallace From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 2 09:51:31 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 07:51:31 -0700 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: References: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 1:40 AM +0100 5/2/10, Liam Proven wrote: >On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 8:36 PM, Chris M wrote: >> I also need help w/G4 Macs > >May be able to advise there, but it's about the only bit I could help with... > >But desktop G4s went out in 2003. That probably doesn't make 'em >"classic" but they're certainly legacy kit now... Depends on the model. My G4/450 AGP shipped with Mac OS 8.6, only the very first G4's didn't ship with Mac OS 9. It is also definitely over 10 years old, as I bought it in '99. My current desktop replaced it in 2003, and is a dual 2Ghz G5. I just hope Apple releases a new model of Mac Pro before my G5 hits the 10 year mark. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 2 12:59:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 18:59:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 1, 10 12:36:59 pm Message-ID: > > IBM 7374 plotter. Missing the damned carousel. Haven't plugged it in > yet, so not even sure it's functional. Something tells me, being it's an At least on IBM desktop pen plotter was actually a slightly modified HP machine. If yours looks like an HP, then you may find an HP carousel will fit > IBM, spare circuit parts, as needed, will be the least of my worries. HP has that propeerty too :-) > Tektronix 5440 scope. Already have a 2216. So the combined might of > these 2 monsters of engineering will undoubtedly aid in the recuperation As I have said many times, the most important piece of test gear is your brain :-). More seriously a 'scope (or a logic analyser or...) will not fix the problem fro you. What it will do, if used correctly, is provide evidence that will help you to track down the problem. > of the previous item. There were more then a few chips w/stickers on > top, so that tells me they're likely custom logic, so I'll need some of In what? Tekky used a lot of their onw very custom chips (both analogue and digital) in their 'scopes. If you're talking about the EPROM programmer, then often a chip with a sticker is a programemd something-or-other. A programmed PAL, or EPROM, for example. Peeling off the sticker might reveal what the unprogrammed part was. At which point, given a suitable programmer [1] you can try to read it out. An EPROM can always be read out, of course, but other device ay have security feautres that prefent this. [1] Of course you end up with the problem 'how do you read the chips _in_ the EPROM programmer' :-). A friend with a programmer comes in handy here... > that epoxy dissolver in additon. Or a die-grinder and a steady hand. Right? > > I happen to have a probe I picked up from somewhere in my garbage > garage. The inputs on these 2 scopes require 1Mohm wit either 22pF or 47 > pF of capacitance. What does this mean? There's simply a capacitor > between the coax? The resistance part is strait forward presumably. If > that's the case, then you can just jury rig an acceptable probe, no? Contrary to what they tried to teach me at school, a 'scope does not have infinite input impedance. It ha a finite resistance (in this case 1M Ohm) and a a non-zero capacitance in parallel with it (in this case 22pF or 47pF) -- which in part is due to the stray capacitance that comes from the connectors, PCBs, etc. In other words, the bare 'scope has the same effect on the circuit as connecting a 1M reissotr in parallel with a 47pF capacitor between the point you are looking at and ground. As soon as you add a probe, the capacitance will increase due to the capacitance of the coax cable connecting the probe to the 'scope. But there is a trixk. Suppose you connected a 9M reisstor in series with the probe at the device-under-test end. OK, the 'scope would on;y see 1/10th the signal (for a DC signal, see later...), but the loading on the circuit, particulalry the capctative loading would be reduced. And you could just turn up the Y gain toe compensate. That's why many probles are '*10 attentuator'. But there's a problem. If you conenct just a resistor like that, it will form a low pass filter with the 'scope input capacitance. Any waveform with high frequnecy components -- like a square wave -- will be horribly distorted. Now, there's a trick for that too. You connect another capacitor in parallel with the probe resistor. It turns out that if the time constant (RC product) of the 'scope input and of the probe resistor/capacitor are the same, then you have no problems. That's why a *10 proble has a little tweaker on it. It's a trimemr capacitor in paralell with the resistor which toy use to adjust that time constant. You clip the proble on a fast rise square wave signal nnd adjust the trimmer to get a sharp edge with no overshoot. Of course for even less loading of the circuit, and for very high freqeuncy signals, you use an 'active probe' THis has a buffer amplifier inside the probe itself, which presetns almost no load to the circuit under test, but which can drive the cable back to the 'scope. Nowadays you use FETs (or FET_based ICs) for this., I still have a probe, good to 800MHz or so, with a triode valve inside (!). Not it's not all that large. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 2 13:04:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 19:04:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: from "joe lobocki" at May 1, 10 08:42:43 pm Message-ID: > > I bought a case of (I think 1000) sony 3-1/2" floppies a few years ago, I assume these are HD ones (1.44MByte for a silly definition of megabyte). What about DD ones (720K on a PC?). I have exactly one machine that used HD 3.5" dissk and many that use the DD type. I am finding them hard to obtain now... > along with a few packs of different colored ones. I also bought a case of 5 > 1/4 disks too. i'm sure they will still be on the market after production > for quite some time. as it is, there are still cassette tapes on retail > store shelves! Yes, but can you find Elcassettes anywhere? Or Philips N1500 video cassettes? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 2 14:49:56 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 15:49:56 -0400 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7C010F9E-29A0-42EE-AA11-FD816B973817@neurotica.com> On May 1, 2010, at 3:36 PM, Chris M wrote: > I also need help w/G4 Macs and Sun workstations and servers. But > that's offtopic and I can look up most of that online. Just in case > anyone wanted to chat about it. Offlist of course... I can help you with the Sun stuff; contact me if needed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 2 15:24:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 13:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <4BDD39AA.90901@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20100502132317.E64503@shell.lmi.net> I loved Matt Groening's (Futurama) take on the Apple 1984 commercial "Hey! We were watching that!" From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 2 16:44:57 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 22:44:57 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org><37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> Message-ID: <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 2:43 AM Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > - Sony makes one of the greatest videogame devices of all times. PS1 was > a huge success, PS2 IS a huge success (it still sells by the truckloads in > Brazil) and PS3 will be a huge success for years to come. Believe me. I disagree completely. The Playstation brand may have been popular once (XBox now has that honour), but that doesn't make it the "greatest videogame device of all time". Personally, I think the SNES and Megadrive jointly deserve that honor. Not only did both consoles have excellent and unique games, but software and hardware companies came forward to push the consoles abilities further with special extra's in the game carts: Codemasters came up with what they dubbed J-Cart, for the Megadrive. It had 2 extra controller ports in the cartridge itself, meaning no need to pay out for the controller adaptor thing, in addition to the game, just to play it with 4 players. The SVP (Sega Virtua Processor) allowed the Megadrive to do 3D games. OK, it only helped it to do something like 1000 polygons per second, but it was the first time 3D was seen on a Sega console. The only SVP game I know of is Virtua Racing The SFX (Super effects) chip allowed the SNES to do 3D games, on par with the SVP. As far as I know it was used in 4 cartridges - Starfox (aka Starwing, a 3D space-based game), Yoshi's Island (for sprite rotation and 3D effects), Stunt Race FX (a 3D racing game) and the Super Game Boy (to scale up GameBoy graphics for the TV screen, aswell as giving the graphics some colour instead of shades of grey). Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as popular. The cartridge slot at the back of the console could be used for a memory card (for saving game files), or a RAM card. 2 RAM cards were available (2MB and 4MB) which increased the Saturns memory enough to allow 100% arcade ports of Capcom and SNK games of the time. Xmen: Children Of The Atom springs to mind, with the Saturn game having 100% of the arcade animation in it, but the PS1 struggling with less than 25% of the arcade animation in it - which made the game look terrible. Sorry, but as you can (probably) tell, you hit a nerve. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 2 17:27:35 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 18:27:35 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org><37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BDDFC57.5080003@atarimuseum.com> Of a modern console - I still think the Dreamcast was the best for its time, Sega pulled the plug too early - it was a wonderful machine, great (and fun!) games, tons of expansion and peripherals. Curt Andrew Burton wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 2:43 AM > Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > > > >> - Sony makes one of the greatest videogame devices of all times. PS1 >> > was > >> a huge success, PS2 IS a huge success (it still sells by the truckloads in >> Brazil) and PS3 will be a huge success for years to come. Believe me. >> > > I disagree completely. > > The Playstation brand may have been popular once (XBox now has that honour), > but that doesn't make it the "greatest videogame device of all time". > Personally, I think the SNES and Megadrive jointly deserve that honor. Not > only did both consoles have excellent and unique games, but software and > hardware companies came forward to push the consoles abilities further with > special extra's in the game carts: > > Codemasters came up with what they dubbed J-Cart, for the Megadrive. It had > 2 extra controller ports in the cartridge itself, meaning no need to pay out > for the controller adaptor thing, in addition to the game, just to play it > with 4 players. > > The SVP (Sega Virtua Processor) allowed the Megadrive to do 3D games. OK, it > only helped it to do something like 1000 polygons per second, but it was the > first time 3D was seen on a Sega console. The only SVP game I know of is > Virtua Racing > > The SFX (Super effects) chip allowed the SNES to do 3D games, on par with > the SVP. As far as I know it was used in 4 cartridges - Starfox (aka > Starwing, a 3D space-based game), Yoshi's Island (for sprite rotation and 3D > effects), Stunt Race FX (a 3D racing game) and the Super Game Boy (to scale > up GameBoy graphics for the TV screen, aswell as giving the graphics some > colour instead of shades of grey). > > > Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as popular. > The cartridge slot at the back of the console could be used for a memory > card (for saving game files), or a RAM card. 2 RAM cards were available (2MB > and 4MB) which increased the Saturns memory enough to allow 100% arcade > ports of Capcom and SNK games of the time. Xmen: Children Of The Atom > springs to mind, with the Saturn game having 100% of the arcade animation in > it, but the PS1 struggling with less than 25% of the arcade animation in > it - which made the game look terrible. > > > Sorry, but as you can (probably) tell, you hit a nerve. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > > From halarewich at gmail.com Sun May 2 17:37:05 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 15:37:05 -0700 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: here are some elcaset http://cgi.ebay.ca/Elcaset-Tapes-New-Used-Sony-Technics-7-5-4-/220400740469?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item3350e86875 http://cgi.ebay.ca/SONY-ELCASET-LC-90-FeCr-TYPE-II-70s-BLANK-AUDIO-TAPE-/140402182692?cmd=ViewItem&pt=BI_Blank_Media&hash=item20b09f4a24 one very nice elcaset player http://cgi.ebay.ca/Sony-Elcaset-EL-D8-Portable-Truly-Rare-/150438693689?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2306d84b39 On 5/2/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I bought a case of (I think 1000) sony 3-1/2" floppies a few years ago, > > I assume these are HD ones (1.44MByte for a silly definition of > megabyte). What about DD ones (720K on a PC?). I have exactly one machine > that used HD 3.5" dissk and many that use the DD type. I am finding them > hard to obtain now... > > > along with a few packs of different colored ones. I also bought a case of > 5 > > 1/4 disks too. i'm sure they will still be on the market after production > > for quite some time. as it is, there are still cassette tapes on retail > > store shelves! > > Yes, but can you find Elcassettes anywhere? Or Philips N1500 video > cassettes? > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 2 17:40:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 15:40:58 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com>, <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BDD9D0A.9909.1555C9C@cclist.sydex.com> From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > - Sony makes one of the greatest videogame devices of all times. At one time, Atari Pong was THE greatest videogame device. Will Sony still have that honor in, say 2200 AD? 5000 AD? "All Times" is a pretty broad category. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 2 17:48:35 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 23:48:35 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> Message-ID: <4BDE0143.2040205@philpem.me.uk> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > - Sony still makes great sound devices. Of course, iPod took the > world by storm. I can only think of one: the MZ-RH1. > - Sony makes one of the greatest videogame devices of all times. PS1 > was a huge success, PS2 IS a huge success (it still sells by the > truckloads in Brazil) and PS3 will be a huge success for years to come. > Believe me. This is the company that thinks removing base features (notably: "Other OS") in firmware updates is a good idea... > - Sony makes some of the greatest televisions around. What beat the > Wega line? Have you compared side-by-side a wega LCD panel and a common > plasma/lcd? +1 for that. The Bravia series LCDs are nice. Compare against a common garden-variety LCD and there's no competition. > - Sony STILL makes beauful computers. The vaio line is expensive, but > beautiful. I've seen one OLED device that made me think about selling an > organ. They're pretty, but they build quality is somewhere between "abysmal" and "absolutely appalling." I know two people who had Sony laptops -- one sent his back over a dozen times over the course of the two year "repair plan" he had (they eventually gave in, wrote the laptop off and replaced it). The other is still trying to get Sony to honour the warranty ("there's dust in the fan, which caused it to fail" -- oh *really*, show me a PC that isn't full of dust, and hasn't spent all its life in a Class 100 cleanroom). > - Sony is STILL a force in professional video. Maybe. But Canon have been giving them a good kicking in that department. Ref: XH-A1 series. > So...I don't believe that sony is a cool company. I do like their > products, although the difference between them and the rest got smaller. I think they *used* to be cool. The RH1 is the mutt's nuts, and if it had as good a battery life as my Sandisk "Sansa Clip+" MP3/OGG player, I'd still be using it. It gets additional points for being pretty much the best tool for recording lectures at university. Just a shame it eats the battery (even when switched "off"). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 2 18:05:24 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 00:05:24 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BDDFC57.5080003@atarimuseum.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org><37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BDDFC57.5080003@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4BDE0534.1000102@philpem.me.uk> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Of a modern console - I still think the Dreamcast was the best for its > time, Sega pulled the plug too early - it was a wonderful machine, great > (and fun!) games, tons of expansion and peripherals. Oh, that brings back memories... playing Sonic with my brother on rainy Saturdays... *thump* <<--- brother punching Phil in the arm "You dirty cheat!" "All's fair in love, war and gaming!" I've got most of the PlayStation kit that's been released -- my brother's old SCPH-7502 PlayStation, a PS2 Slim (swaptrick FTW) and a release-model 60GB "fat" PS3 (brother calls it "Satan's George Foreman Grill"). I tend to stick to PC gaming though -- Steam runs quite nicely under WINE, and thus Half Life 2 (which I have still yet to complete), Portal and all the other shiny Valve games. Portable gaming -- I've got a GP2X (it runs MAME!), and a Gameboy Colour. Interesting story behind the GBC -- Gamestation offered my brother a fiver for it, I offered him a tenner (he obviously took me up on this offer!), then I built up an adapter for my EPROM emulator to 'fake' a ROM cart. Ended up porting most of the GBDK libraries up to a newer version of the SDCC compiler. Never did anything interesting with it though... Brother has (or had): - Sega MegaDrive II - PlayStation (SCPH-7502, the one with the Mk3 CD drive that didn't burn itself out after nine months) - Playstation2 (Gen4 slotloader) - A ton of Gameboys -- everything from the GBC right the way up to the new DS - Dreamcast - Gamecube - Wii - Xbox 360 (traded in the Wii to get the first one) - Another Wii - Another Gamecube - Xbox #2 (Elite version, all-black, curiously enough this one hasn't burned itself out yet) .. and the Uber-PC he had me build a month or so ago. Which he uses for internet browsing. Couldn't even get him to play Defcon or Multiwinia against me :( I really can't say I'm much of a gamer -- more a tinkerer. The PS3 spends most of its life playing DVDs and BluRays (beats having a separate DVD player kicking around), and the PC gets used for... work. HDL synthesis, CAD, software design and development... I've even done some "slightly nefarious" stuff with CUDA -- breaking PDF passwords... (ahem). Thing is, I can't stand any of the modern "games". Sonic 1 and 2 were nice, but I don't think there's really been anything "new" or "groundbreaking" since about 2001. Introversion have been pushing the boundaries a bit -- Uplink was a good bit of fun (especially if you pissed off the "copy protection"), Defcon is well worth a go if you're a Wargames fan ("Let's play.. GLOBALTHERMONUCLEARWAR"). All that aside, I do happen to enjoy the occasional game of Ratchet and Clank :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 2 18:06:59 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 00:06:59 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BDE0593.3050907@philpem.me.uk> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > And they're not entirely sure about Newfoundland either. Are they > supposed to invade it? Is it part of Canada? They don't _sound_ > canadian! But what'll they do when they meet Terrance and Phillip? End of the world as we know it? :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun May 2 19:20:14 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 21:20:14 -0300 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies References: Message-ID: <0f9101caea58$6b2bba90$13a160bd@portajara> > I assume these are HD ones (1.44MByte for a silly definition of > megabyte). What about DD ones (720K on a PC?). I have exactly one machine > that used HD 3.5" dissk and many that use the DD type. I am finding them > hard to obtain now... Tony, I suffer from the same problem (as an example, the HP 16500 Logic Analyzer mainframe) but I think that at this stage, it is better to use a floppy emulator (there are a pair of good free projects on the net) than use diskettes IF you have PROFESSIONAL USE of your equipment. If you use it once a year, nothing a good stock of new DSDD floppies in a climate controlled environiment can't do From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun May 2 19:50:52 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 20:50:52 -0400 Subject: AT&T Unix 3B-1's Available in Colorado Message-ID: <4BDE1DEC.1040001@degnanco.com> I was contacted by someone interested in finding a good home for an "extensive collection" of AT&T 3B1 computers, parts, and manuals. If anyone is local to Colorado and would like the details, contact me directly. The person would prefer to find someone who'd be willing to pick these items up rather than ship, and obviously someone who will use these systems, not re-sell them. Thanks Bill From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun May 2 19:50:36 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 21:50:36 -0300 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org><37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <0fc401caea5b$4c761110$13a160bd@portajara> > Sorry, but as you can (probably) tell, you hit a nerve. You are right, nothing can pass NES and SNES :) But I do love the PS lineup :) And BTW, Dreamcast will never die :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun May 2 19:51:30 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 21:51:30 -0300 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org><37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BDDFC57.5080003@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <0fc501caea5b$4dd700a0$13a160bd@portajara> > Of a modern console - I still think the Dreamcast was the best for its > time, Sega pulled the plug too early - it was a wonderful machine, great > (and fun!) games, tons of expansion and peripherals. Two games that really stand out: Soulcalibur (OMG!) and Space Race (buttloads of fun!) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 2 21:39:37 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 22:39:37 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningofthe end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org><37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <0fc401caea5b$4c761110$13a160bd@portajara> Message-ID: <37A797D03328499A821E7087760BF48D@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 8:50 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningofthe end for floppies) >> Sorry, but as you can (probably) tell, you hit a nerve. > > You are right, nothing can pass NES and SNES :) But I do love the PS > lineup :) > > And BTW, Dreamcast will never die :D The Dreamcast is a nice machine, plenty of texture cache so the backgrounds in games don't all look alike as in some PS2 games. Who knows what the last generation games that were canceled would have looked like (takes time to get the most out of a console). I got the keyboard, mouse, VGA adapter, and some other stuff for mine. The Nintendo is credited for getting the console market going again after Atari killed it (almost). My first console after the Atari 2600 was a Playstation 1, so I missed all the others in between. The C64 and PC were decent for gaming in that time (along with the Amiga). From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 2 21:59:24 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 19:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <0fc501caea5b$4dd700a0$13a160bd@portajara> from Alexandre Souza - Listas at "May 2, 10 09:51:30 pm" Message-ID: <201005030259.o432xOmM013256@floodgap.com> > > Of a modern console - I still think the Dreamcast was the best for its > > time, Sega pulled the plug too early - it was a wonderful machine, great > > (and fun!) games, tons of expansion and peripherals. > > Two games that really stand out: Soulcalibur (OMG!) and Space Race > (buttloads of fun!) Two words: Crazy Taxi. That was what made me buy it. Graphically, I think Dead or Alive beats Soulcalibur, even without the gratuitous "wobblies." Soulcalibur has clearly better gameplay though. Still gotta try NetBSD on it one of these days. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Man who live in glass house dress in basement. ----------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 2 22:06:21 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 20:06:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from Andrew Burton at "May 2, 10 10:44:57 pm" Message-ID: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> > Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as popular. The Saturn was hard to program, however. As I recall the polygons were based on quadrilaterals, not triangles, which made porting and modeling more troublesome regardless of its rendering advantages. And the CPU was sloooooooow. Sega clearly did much better with the Dreamcast, but I think there was a lot of developer bad blood after the Saturn (both for technical and marketing reasons). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- High explosives are applicable where truth and logic fail. ----------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 2 22:36:12 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 23:36:12 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8E5FD09DC0BD4451B1C26B37D64EF65F@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 11:06 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) >> Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as >> popular. > > The Saturn was hard to program, however. As I recall the polygons were > based on quadrilaterals, not triangles, which made porting and modeling > more troublesome regardless of its rendering advantages. And the CPU was > sloooooooow. Didn't the saturn have 2 CPU's From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 2 22:36:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 20:36:19 -0700 Subject: Looking for a vintage computer for film in Oz... Message-ID: <4BDDE243.17204.263C325@cclist.sydex.com> (Cross-posted from Erik's VC Forum) http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?20406-Wanted- mid-70-s-computer-to-appear-in-film-Bank-scene Cheers, Chuck From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun May 2 22:55:54 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 13:55:54 +1000 Subject: Looking for a vintage computer for film in Oz... In-Reply-To: <4BDDE243.17204.263C325@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BDDE243.17204.263C325@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?20406-Wanted- > mid-70-s-computer-to-appear-in-film-Bank-scene I replied to Louise suggesting Tony Epton (Curator) at Australian Computer Museum Society (WA inc) They did have a IBM 360 Model 40, seen in this picture http://aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/Images/InventHiRes/IBM360.jpg Just the thing for a bank in the 1970s http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/mainframe/mainframe_PP2040.html From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 2 23:07:54 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 21:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <8E5FD09DC0BD4451B1C26B37D64EF65F@dell8300> from Teo Zenios at "May 2, 10 11:36:12 pm" Message-ID: <201005030407.o4347s5e017010@floodgap.com> > > > Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as > > > popular. > > > > The Saturn was hard to program, however. As I recall the polygons were > > based on quadrilaterals, not triangles, which made porting and modeling > > more troublesome regardless of its rendering advantages. And the CPU was > > sloooooooow. > > Didn't the saturn have 2 CPU's Sorry, CPUs, plural. *They* were slooooooow. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Merci d'eviter le "Top posting" -------------------------------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 2 23:42:01 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 23:42:01 -0500 Subject: Console programming (was: Re: Greatest videogame device) In-Reply-To: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org> On 5/2/2010 10:06 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as popular. > > The Saturn was hard to program, however. As I recall the polygons were > based on quadrilaterals, not triangles, which made porting and modeling > more troublesome regardless of its rendering advantages. And the CPU was > sloooooooow. Which one? IIRC the Saturn was a dual-proc console, which added to the difficulty of programming for it. Speaking of multi-proc consoles, I look upon my time with the Atari Jaguar with sadness, despair and anger. The thing had between three and five effective CPUs depending on how you wanted to look at it (a 68000, "tom" which had 32-bit gpu, 64-bit RISC and 64-bit blitter with z-buffering and gouraud shading, "jerry" which had 32-bit RISC and a DSP) and yet there isn't a single decent game for the platform that takes advantage of the hardware. Atari didn't learn from the mistakes made with the Lynx, so they didn't shell out money for decent licenses and companies to implement them, relying only on internal new IP and whatever 3rd-party sucker would develop for it. Just ONE license could have saved the console, probably the Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter series, which would have been perfect for it because it had a truly kick-ass blitter. "NBA JAM" didn't cut the mustard. With 32-bit and 64-bit RISC under the hood, plus a lightening-fast 16-bit color blitter, you'd think the thing would have been capable of a lot, but nobody could figure out how to code for it. One of the launch titles for it, Checkered Flag, was a flat/lambert-shaded monstrosity that, despite low poly count, ran between 3 and 8 frames per second. **I swear I am not making those numbers up.** 3fps is acceptable for, say, moving chess pieces on a board, but not a high-speed racing game. Cybermorph, the 3-d shooter pack-in, ran at about 12fps, which was acceptable but still took getting used to. The PS2 almost suffered from this -- it had dual procs and truly terrible programming documentation from Sony, but all the companies knew that developing for PS2 was a sure bet, and they were right. I love to look at games from the END of a console's life, as they show some of the true programming wit and magic that comes with being able to amass console knowledge for 5+ years. For example: - The God of War series for PS2 show a nearly full framerate with reflections, water, and (seemingly) detailed geometry - Because the Genesis was based on a 7.16MHz 68000, some 3-d computer games were ported over (LHX attack chopper, some Wolf3d clones, etc.) The Jaguar, even though I just finished dumping on it, had a truly 3-d textured world engine to be used in an upcoming dragon-fighting simulator, but sadly the Jag was discontinued before the game was finished. Name and company escape me but I saw it demonstrated at CGE2003. World Circuit was another unreleased 3-d driving game until Telegames republished it, which is probably the best released example of what the Jag could actually do (gouraud shaded polys and texture mapping at a decent framerate). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 2 23:43:03 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 00:43:03 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <0fc501caea5b$4dd700a0$13a160bd@portajara> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org><37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BDDFC57.5080003@atarimuseum.com> <0fc501caea5b$4dd700a0$13a160bd@portajara> Message-ID: <4BDE5457.1080908@atarimuseum.com> Soul Caliber was and is a great game on the DC. I also immensely enjoyed playing Slave Zero - great first person/third person robot game... I think the DC could've stood up comparably well even agains the PS2 for a while - especially in the beginning with the PS2 dev tools not being as sharp as the original PS1 tools, the issues with anti-aliasing and such hurt the PS2 in the beginning. Curt Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Of a modern console - I still think the Dreamcast was the best for >> its time, Sega pulled the plug too early - it was a wonderful >> machine, great (and fun!) games, tons of expansion and peripherals. > > Two games that really stand out: Soulcalibur (OMG!) and Space Race > (buttloads of fun!) > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 2 23:45:07 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 00:45:07 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4BDE54D3.4010509@atarimuseum.com> I have never tried coding on anything but the Atari home computers, the Atari 2600 and I'm dabbling a little on the Atari 7800... but I know in the Atari Jaguar 64 communities -- programming for it, is quite a choir and there are only a handful of coders who are working on that platform... so I can only imagine how much of a nightmare coding on the Saturn and dealing with 5 processors must've been. Curt Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as popular. >> > > The Saturn was hard to program, however. As I recall the polygons were > based on quadrilaterals, not triangles, which made porting and modeling > more troublesome regardless of its rendering advantages. And the CPU was > sloooooooow. > > Sega clearly did much better with the Dreamcast, but I think there was a > lot of developer bad blood after the Saturn (both for technical and > marketing reasons). > > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon May 3 00:38:02 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 02 May 2010 22:38:02 -0700 Subject: Console programming In-Reply-To: <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org> References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BDE613A.2060900@mail.msu.edu> Jim Leonard wrote: > > > I love to look at games from the END of a console's life, as they show > some of the true programming wit and magic that comes with being able > to amass console knowledge for 5+ years. For example: > > - The God of War series for PS2 show a nearly full framerate with > reflections, water, and (seemingly) detailed geometry > - Because the Genesis was based on a 7.16MHz 68000, some 3-d computer > games were ported over (LHX attack chopper, some Wolf3d clones, etc.) > > The Jaguar, even though I just finished dumping on it, had a truly 3-d > textured world engine to be used in an upcoming dragon-fighting > simulator, but sadly the Jag was discontinued before the game was > finished. Name and company escape me but I saw it demonstrated at > CGE2003. World Circuit was another unreleased 3-d driving game until > Telegames republished it, which is probably the best released example > of what the Jag could actually do (gouraud shaded polys and texture > mapping at a decent framerate). I like to do that for the Atari VCS -- a machine whose graphics chip was basically designed to make slightly-more-advanced games of Pong possible, 128 bytes of RAM and a CPU that had to spend 90% of its time running the display. Yet somehow programmers continued to squeeze amazingly clever, fun and (sometimes) even good looking games out of the system after more than a decade. I started hacking on a game for it awhile back, I should dig it out and do something with it, it's a real challenge... - Josh From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 3 00:42:46 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 01:42:46 -0400 Subject: Console programming In-Reply-To: <4BDE613A.2060900@mail.msu.edu> References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org> <4BDE613A.2060900@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4BDE6256.1050107@atarimuseum.com> Once you understand the TIA even just remotely - its a damned fun console to code on, the Atari 2600 is still being pushed well past its envelope even today, if you check out the programming section on the forums at atariage.com - there is a constant run of new games being done. If you want to check out a truly INCREDIBLE new Atari 2600 game - check out Dungeon - I never thought a game like that could be done on the Atari 2600. Curt Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Jim Leonard wrote: >> >> >> I love to look at games from the END of a console's life, as they >> show some of the true programming wit and magic that comes with being >> able to amass console knowledge for 5+ years. For example: >> >> - The God of War series for PS2 show a nearly full framerate with >> reflections, water, and (seemingly) detailed geometry >> - Because the Genesis was based on a 7.16MHz 68000, some 3-d computer >> games were ported over (LHX attack chopper, some Wolf3d clones, etc.) >> >> The Jaguar, even though I just finished dumping on it, had a truly >> 3-d textured world engine to be used in an upcoming dragon-fighting >> simulator, but sadly the Jag was discontinued before the game was >> finished. Name and company escape me but I saw it demonstrated at >> CGE2003. World Circuit was another unreleased 3-d driving game until >> Telegames republished it, which is probably the best released example >> of what the Jag could actually do (gouraud shaded polys and texture >> mapping at a decent framerate). > > I like to do that for the Atari VCS -- a machine whose graphics chip > was basically designed to make slightly-more-advanced games of Pong > possible, 128 bytes of RAM and a CPU that had to spend 90% of its time > running the display. Yet somehow programmers continued to squeeze > amazingly clever, fun and (sometimes) even good looking games out of > the system after more than a decade. I started hacking on a game for > it awhile back, I should dig it out and do something with it, it's a > real challenge... > > - Josh > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun May 2 11:55:15 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 2 May 2010 09:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <949994.9689.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> fine, but what do you have to do to improvise a probe. the 2216 may have a 30pF capacitance IIRC. > It means the input of the scope has 1 M resistance in > parallel with 22 or 47 pF of capacitance. This means that a > 10-1 probe for example would need to be adjustable to > accomodate this input impedance. Probes are usually marked > with what input capacitance range they can drive (The 1M > resistance is standard for all high impedance probes) > > Peter Wallace > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 3 08:44:16 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 06:44:16 -0700 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <949994.9689.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: , <949994.9689.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi I wouldn't call it improving the probe, it is more like unimproving. You'd need to add a capacitr across the resistor that is inside of the probe tip. Not too easy to do with most probes. Many older probes for old HP scope would work. Also the Nicolet probes that I see on ebay will also compensate to 30 pf. The value of the capacitor is quite small. On the order of 3 pf. 30/9 Dwight > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com > > fine, but what do you have to do to improvise a probe. > > the 2216 may have a 30pF capacitance IIRC. > > > It means the input of the scope has 1 M resistance in > > parallel with 22 or 47 pF of capacitance. This means that a > > 10-1 probe for example would need to be adjustable to > > accomodate this input impedance. Probes are usually marked > > with what input capacitance range they can drive (The 1M > > resistance is standard for all high impedance probes) > > > > Peter Wallace > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon May 3 08:46:24 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 06:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) Message-ID: <539165.40341.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Agreed.. While the PS2 was more popular the Dreamcast had better graphics due to increased video ram and had better games in my opinion. I show people my dreamcast and they can't believe it's 11 yrs old. --- On Sun, 5/2/10, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Of a modern console - I still think the Dreamcast was the best for its > time, Sega pulled the plug too early - it was a wonderful > machine, great (and fun!) games, tons of expansion and peripherals. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 3 08:52:07 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 06:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <344455.76070.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 5/1/10, Chris M wrote: > Also picked up a big huge square HP monitor. Don't know > the part # offhand, but has a datecode of 1984. First time > I've seen one of these. And I've seen a lot of monitors. I'm > sure I'm hoping in vain that it takes digital rgb. Awesome score! I've been looking for one of those for years. It's a fixed frequency analog RGB monitor, and was used by several flavors of workstations (IBM, SUN and HP, I do believe). Awesome picture on that thing. -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 3 08:59:32 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 06:59:32 -0700 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: References: , , <949994.9689.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: Hi Replying to my own email here. You might be able to get the right capacitance by just running a piece of wire wrap wire along the resistor. Just only attach it to one end of the resistor. Like I said, the capacitance needed is quite small. Dwight > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > > Hi > > I wouldn't call it improving the probe, it is more like > > unimproving. > > You'd need to add a capacitr across the resistor that > > is inside of the probe tip. Not too easy to do with > > most probes. Many older probes for old HP scope > > would work. Also the Nicolet probes that I see on > > ebay will also compensate to 30 pf. > > The value of the capacitor is quite small. On the order > > of 3 pf. 30/9 > > Dwight > > > > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com > > > > fine, but what do you have to do to improvise a probe. > > > > the 2216 may have a 30pF capacitance IIRC. > > > > > It means the input of the scope has 1 M resistance in > > > parallel with 22 or 47 pF of capacitance. This means that a > > > 10-1 probe for example would need to be adjustable to > > > accomodate this input impedance. Probes are usually marked > > > with what input capacitance range they can drive (The 1M > > > resistance is standard for all high impedance probes) > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 3 10:12:46 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 11:12:46 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 02 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > I disagree completely. > > The Playstation brand may have been popular once (XBox now has that > honour), but that doesn't make it the "greatest videogame device of > all time". Personally, I think the SNES and Megadrive jointly > deserve that honor. Not only did both consoles have excellent and > unique games, but software and hardware companies came forward to > push the consoles abilities further with special extra's in the game > carts: Actually, Nintendo's Wii has had many more sales than either Xbox 360 or PS3. It looks like PS3 is gaining on the Xbox, and I suspect that most of the Xbox 360 sales at this point are from people who need to replace their broken Xbox, anyways. :) The only really compelling game exclusively for Xbox is the Halo series, and that's exclusive because Microsoft bought the company that made it. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 3 10:34:28 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 16:34:28 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 2:43 AM > Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > > >> ? ? - Sony makes one of the greatest videogame devices of all times. PS1 > was >> a huge success, PS2 IS a huge success (it still sells by the truckloads in >> Brazil) and PS3 will be a huge success for years to come. Believe me. > > I disagree completely. > > The Playstation brand may have been popular once (XBox now has that honour), > but that doesn't make it the "greatest videogame device of all time". > Personally, I think the SNES and Megadrive jointly deserve that honor. Not > only did both consoles have excellent and unique games, but software and > hardware companies came forward to push the consoles abilities further with > special extra's in the game carts: Although it was never really intended as a pure games device, I'd argue for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum. It is often constraint that brings out greatness - Hawking would never have become the world's greatest physicist if not for his MND forcing him to retreat into his own mind, for instance. The Spectrum offered the basics - colour graphics, just; sound, just; a fairly-generous-for-the-time 48KB of RAM; a keyboard for input. The C64 and VIC20 were /designed/ for games, with dedicated hardware for games graphics and sound. The Atari 8-bits were the same. The Speccy had none of this, not even, at first, the ubiquitous GA-Y-8912 sound chip that /everything/ else offered if it didn't have something better like the SID chip. The Speccy was the bottom of the line, the lowest-end machine in the market, but it sold millions because it was cheap, kids could justify it to their parents as an educational tool because it was a "proper computer" not a games console, and it had thousands of games titles. It also had a semi-serious BASIC and programming tools, not the half-assed efforts of Commodore and so on, without even graphics or sound commands. This wasn't a toy machine with built-in joystick ports (always a dead giveaway). It wasn't an elitist expensive educational thing like a BBC Micro, either. It was computing for the everyman. Sure, big deal, the Apple II was under $1000. In the late 1970s or early 1980s in Europe, that was prohibitively expensive; I never knew a single individual, company, school or lab who had Apples. They were vastly too dear. Sinclair gave the world the first personal computer under ?100 - nearly an order of magnitude less expensive. The Spectrum was more, I grant - but it started at ?175 or so for the 48K version, if I remember correctly. When Commodores and Ataris cost ?400 or more, this was less than half the price. *It* is what opened up computing to the masses outside of the USA with its legendarily high standard of living and high relative spending power of income. OK, some of the great 8-bit games didn't originate on the Speccy, such as the BBC Micro's Elite - but still, the creativeness, the innovation, the stretching the meagre capabilities of the machine. There was an immense variety of gameplay, far more than the stultified dull world of the consoles then or now. Programming genii got everything out of the Speccy: realtime 3D, full colour, full-screen motion and animation, all sorts. The humble Speccy had a vastly bigger variety of games, as full native apps, than any console before or since, from big companies to tiny one-man-in-his-spare-bedroom efforts. It was what started Codemasters, Rare and the like. I reckon one could argue persuasively that no other single machine had such an influence. The consoles did some clever stuff, but it was all the same sort of game, and only professionals in big companies could develop for it. It didn't interest me then and it doesn't now, really. I have an Xbox to run XBMC and a PS2 to run Guitar Hero and play DVDs, and that is all they ever do. Console games are all samey and dull to me, and always were, and the controllers are horrid and always have been. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From evan at snarc.net Mon May 3 10:55:19 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 11:55:19 -0400 Subject: OT: Stealthbid Message-ID: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net> Hey, whatever happened to Stealthbid? I used it often but haven't in a while .... now it seems to be dead/gone. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon May 3 10:57:52 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 08:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <13616.35813.qm@web113507.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Oh God let the flame wars begin Actually I have not gotten a RROD from my xbox and mine is quite old. I just know not to play 8hrs straight. I don't have a PS3 because it's just too expensive for the few titles I would really want and all I would pay is God of War and MGS. Most of the NEW games I like are on XBOX. Also the fact that the PS3 seems to lose capabilities with every revision. I do like the Wii due to the wonderful emulation capabilities. Most of the games I like period are on the Dreamcast and NEC Turbografx. Yea baby I got a TurboDuo! And a Saturn and a Atari 2600/5200/7800 and a ... I think the best video game console was the Atari. Why? It's pretty much still supported. I mean people still pop out amazing home brew stuff for it. They do more with that minimal amount of memory then modern developers do with current machines. Also the games are GOOD because you have to have a good game to make up for the lack of graphics/sound capability. Atari Hacking is alive and kicking. Same for C64 hacking but thats a computer and up for a different discussion. I don't see this with the NES/SNES as much. I am seeing it with the Dreamcast as the home brewers are working hard on that platform. Same with the PSP and the DS.. Hackers are making those machines do things they were never designed for. -- On Mon, 5/3/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > PS3.? It looks like PS3 is gaining on the Xbox, and I > suspect that most of the Xbox 360 sales at this point are from people who > need to replace their broken Xbox, anyways. :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon May 3 11:07:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 12:07:31 -0400 Subject: Wang 2200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Do u know the model number? No, I have no other information. -- Will From blkline at attglobal.net Mon May 3 11:20:29 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 12:20:29 -0400 Subject: OT: Stealthbid In-Reply-To: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net> References: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4BDEF7CD.5020904@attglobal.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Hey, whatever happened to Stealthbid? I used it often but haven't in a > while .... now it seems to be dead/gone. > If you can't find that one Evan you can try JBidWatcher. I have used it for a long time and it works quite well, assuming that you have a JVM loaded on your machine. Barry From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 3 12:08:23 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 10:08:23 -0700 Subject: OT: Stealthbid In-Reply-To: <4BDEF7CD.5020904@attglobal.net> References: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net> <4BDEF7CD.5020904@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4BDF0307.60206@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/10 9:20 AM, Barry L. Kline wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Hey, whatever happened to Stealthbid? I used it often but haven't in a >> while .... now it seems to be dead/gone. >> > > If you can't find that one Evan you can try JBidWatcher. or Gixen From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon May 3 12:14:41 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 13:14:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Stealthbid In-Reply-To: <4BDEF7CD.5020904@attglobal.net> References: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net> <4BDEF7CD.5020904@attglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 May 2010, Barry L. Kline wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Hey, whatever happened to Stealthbid? I used it often but haven't in a >> while .... now it seems to be dead/gone. >> > > If you can't find that one Evan you can try JBidWatcher. I have used > it for a long time and it works quite well, assuming that you have a JVM > loaded on your machine. I'll second that: http://www.jbidwatcher.com/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 3 12:59:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 18:59:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning In-Reply-To: <4BDD9D0A.9909.1555C9C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 2, 10 03:40:58 pm Message-ID: > > From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > > > - Sony makes one of the greatest videogame devices of all times. > > At one time, Atari Pong was THE greatest videogame device. Will Sony > still have that honor in, say 2200 AD? 5000 AD? "All Times" is a > pretty broad category. I think common usage (at least over here) interpets 'of all time' as meaning 'up to the present time'. Whether Sony made the greatest games machine to date, I can't comment. I only have one video game console. It's not Sony, it's not Atari, it's not Sega. It was sold as a games machine (in other words I am not claiming something like a GT40), and it is on-topic here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 3 12:55:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 18:55:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <949994.9689.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 2, 10 09:55:15 am Message-ID: > > fine, but what do you have to do to improvise a probe. That depends on what you want to use it for.... FOr Audio frequencies (but not much higher!) you would get away with what is often caleld a '*1 probe'. Just a length of coaxial cable with aBNC plgu to fit the ;'scope on one end. a probe (connected to the central conductor) and a ground clip (connected to the braid)) on the other. For higher frequecny work -- and just about anything digital -- you need a '*10 probe'. This should more accurately be called a '/10 probe' since the signal seen by the 'scope is a tenth of the signal you're looking at. The simplest form of that is again a coaxial cable with a BNC plug to fit the 'cope at one end. At the other end, the ground clip is connected to the braid as before. But now toy have a 9M resistor (forms a 10:1 voltage divider with the input impedance of the 'scope) connected to the central conductor, and a trimmer capacitor in parellel with it. This needs to have 1/9th the capacitance of the 'scope input _plus the cable_. Alternatively you could just buy a *10 probe. The spec of your 'scope is pretty standard, so any reasmable-quality probe should be usable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 3 13:03:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:03:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDE0143.2040205@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 2, 10 11:48:35 pm Message-ID: > > - Sony makes some of the greatest televisions around. What beat the > > Wega line? Have you compared side-by-side a wega LCD panel and a common > > plasma/lcd? > > +1 for that. The Bravia series LCDs are nice. Compare against a common > garden-variety LCD and there's no competition. Indeed. It's a piuty they can do nothing for tyhe quality of the programmes, though :-( And I am not looking forward to having to repair our Bravia. According to the service manual, you board-swap the PSU but fix the signal processing PCB at component level. That's a PCB containing BGA-packaged chips, fine-pitch PQFPs, etc. And all you get is a schematic, no waveforms, or anything like that. Hmmm.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 3 13:08:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 19:08:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <0f9101caea58$6b2bba90$13a160bd@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at May 2, 10 09:20:14 pm Message-ID: > > > I assume these are HD ones (1.44MByte for a silly definition of > > megabyte). What about DD ones (720K on a PC?). I have exactly one machine > > that used HD 3.5" dissk and many that use the DD type. I am finding them > > hard to obtain now... > > Tony, I suffer from the same problem (as an example, the HP 16500 Logic > Analyzer mainframe) but I think that at this stage, it is better to use a > floppy emulator (there are a pair of good free projects on the net) than use > diskettes IF you have PROFESSIONAL USE of your equipment. I don;'t use any of my machines professionally (I wish I did...), but I do use them. And being classics I want to keep them as original as possible. I've yet to see a floppy disk emulator that I care for. They;'re either undocuemtned ready-built modules (which probably won't work with a 1Mbps 600 rpm disk drice controller), or they seem to require a modern PC. The workaround for about 50% of my machines (which I am giving serious thought to) is to design an SS/80 SD-card 'drive' -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 3 14:43:11 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 20:43:11 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BDF274F.1090905@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > And I am not looking forward to having to repair our Bravia. According to > the service manual, you board-swap the PSU but fix the signal processing > PCB at component level. Wow. Knowing Sony, I'd have expected that to be the other way around. But that said -- last time I checked, just about every custom LSI in the MZ-RH1 is available as a spare part. I seem to recall there are a couple of parts in the disc drive that are only available as part of a full drive mechanism, but the laser unit and magnetic head are (IIRC) replaceable. As is most of the disc eject mechanism. And the front plastic, which just LOVES to pick up scratches. Now how can Sony come up with one device with a display that's utterly impossible to scratch up (my Sony-Ericsson C902 mobile phone) and another that scratches if you look at it wrong... ? Getting spare parts would be the trick -- in my experience, buying parts from Sony is a task only a masochist would enjoy. > That's a PCB containing BGA-packaged chips, > fine-pitch PQFPs, etc. And all you get is a schematic, no waveforms, or > anything like that. Hmmm.... Bah, PQFPs aren't difficult to deal with. Hot air soldering stations can be had for a pittance these days (I spent about ?70 on mine), and the BGA and PQFP nozzles cost a few quid each, maybe ?10 at the most. It's getting the blasted temperature profile right that's the trick... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 3 15:10:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 13:10:08 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDF274F.1090905@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4BDF274F.1090905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BDECB30.26760.B37940@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 May 2010 at 20:43, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Getting spare parts would be the trick -- in my experience, buying > parts from Sony is a task only a masochist would enjoy. Does anyone really think that parts for their nice shiny XEL-1 will continue to be available for any significant time? http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61F0ZO20100216 --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 3 15:20:03 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 16:20:03 -0400 Subject: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? In-Reply-To: References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4BDF2FF3.2030401@atarimuseum.com> Anyone have these available - I would like to try them out on a x86 box. Curt From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 3 16:01:35 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 14:01:35 -0700 Subject: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? In-Reply-To: <4BDF2FF3.2030401@atarimuseum.com> References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> <4BDF2FF3.2030401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4BDF39AF.2010501@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/10 1:20 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone have these available - I would like to try them out on a x86 box. > There is a simulation of Viewpoint under Windows written by Don Woodward called Dawn. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 3 16:03:19 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 14:03:19 -0700 Subject: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? In-Reply-To: <4BDF39AF.2010501@bitsavers.org> References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> <4BDF2FF3.2030401@atarimuseum.com> <4BDF39AF.2010501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BDF3A17.1090900@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/10 2:01 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/3/10 1:20 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Anyone have these available - I would like to try them out on a x86 box. >> > > There is a simulation of Viewpoint under Windows written by Don Woodward > called Dawn. > http://www.woodward.org/mps/index.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 3 16:21:40 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:21:40 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <4BDE0143.2040205@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <005f01caeb0c$978f8260$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 11:48 PM Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > > - Sony makes one of the greatest videogame devices of all times. PS1 > > was a huge success, PS2 IS a huge success (it still sells by the > > truckloads in Brazil) and PS3 will be a huge success for years to come. > > Believe me. > > This is the company that thinks removing base features (notably: "Other > OS") in firmware updates is a good idea... > Yeah, that cracked me up. After the PS3's launch Sony continually removed feature after feature - the only things I can think of now is the backwards compatibilty and the 'Other OS' feature, but I know there were several things they removed. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 3 16:29:06 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:29:06 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org><37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BDDFC57.5080003@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <006001caeb0c$98ffb430$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 11:27 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) > Of a modern console - I still think the Dreamcast was the best for its > time, Sega pulled the plug too early - it was a wonderful machine, great > (and fun!) games, tons of expansion and peripherals. > > > > Curt > Yeah, the Dreamcast had loads of peripherals - light gun, arcade controller, karaoke unit (Japan only), keyboard, Samba de Amigo marracas and Dance Dance Revolution style mats to stand/dance on. Not to mention it was the first games console to come with a built-in modem - though you could get a Broadband adapator (BBA) in the US for it. There are some great homebrew games, including Cool Herders and Feet Of Fury, and games were made for it (homebrew and some official arcade ports) up until atleast 2008 - 7 years after Sega officially stopped supporting it. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 3 16:54:53 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:54:53 +0100 Subject: Console programming (was: Re: Greatest videogame device) References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <006301caeb0c$9d45e960$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 5:42 AM Subject: Console programming (was: Re: Greatest videogame device) > On 5/2/2010 10:06 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as popular. > > > > The Saturn was hard to program, however. As I recall the polygons were > > based on quadrilaterals, not triangles, which made porting and modeling > > more troublesome regardless of its rendering advantages. And the CPU was > > sloooooooow. > > Which one? IIRC the Saturn was a dual-proc console, which added to the > difficulty of programming for it. > > Speaking of multi-proc consoles, I look upon my time with the Atari > Jaguar with sadness, despair and anger. The thing had between three and > five effective CPUs depending on how you wanted to look at it (a 68000, > "tom" which had 32-bit gpu, 64-bit RISC and 64-bit blitter with > z-buffering and gouraud shading, "jerry" which had 32-bit RISC and a > DSP) and yet there isn't a single decent game for the platform that > takes advantage of the hardware. Atari didn't learn from the mistakes > made with the Lynx, so they didn't shell out money for decent licenses > and companies to implement them, relying only on internal new IP and > whatever 3rd-party sucker would develop for it. Just ONE license could > have saved the console, probably the Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter > series, which would have been perfect for it because it had a truly > kick-ass blitter. "NBA JAM" didn't cut the mustard. > > With 32-bit and 64-bit RISC under the hood, plus a lightening-fast > 16-bit color blitter, you'd think the thing would have been capable of a > lot, but nobody could figure out how to code for it. One of the launch > titles for it, Checkered Flag, was a flat/lambert-shaded monstrosity > that, despite low poly count, ran between 3 and 8 frames per second. > **I swear I am not making those numbers up.** 3fps is acceptable for, > say, moving chess pieces on a board, but not a high-speed racing game. > Cybermorph, the 3-d shooter pack-in, ran at about 12fps, which was > acceptable but still took getting used to. > The thing that put people off was (excluding the popularity of the SNES and Megadrive/Genesis) that it was an unknown product with no big name game - unlike Sega's (with Sonic, aka Mr Needlemouse) and Nintendo's (Mario and Zelda). Not to mention that damn controller, who needs 30 odd buttons on a controller! Todays controllers have about 8 buttons, plus a d-pad and 2 analogue sticks. Did you get the CD unit for it? I believe it sat in the cartridge slot of the Jaguar, so you could play CD-based games. Whilst I don't recall any specific games for it, there was one that, IIRC, generated the FPS levels completely randomly. Nintendo tried that as an option on F-Zero for the Nintendo 64, but it would occasionally generate a race track that was impossible to complete a lap on! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 3 16:42:57 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:42:57 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <006101caeb0c$9a6b7930$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:06 AM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) > > Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as popular. > > The Saturn was hard to program, however. As I recall the polygons were > based on quadrilaterals, not triangles, which made porting and modeling > more troublesome regardless of its rendering advantages. And the CPU was > sloooooooow. > Yes it was hard to program, but I believed it to be because of the dual SH2 processors, plus the SH1. However, Sega (or rather their awesome sub-division AM2) created the SGL (Sega Graphics Library) for it - essentially a whole load of very useful programming routines to make coding for it easier. After all, the consoles hardware was basically Sega's "Titan" arcade board, so they would know how to make the best of it (and often did). The only exception beiong the horrible (rushed) European port of Daytona USA. Despite many sites claiming the contrary, Tomb Raider 1 was released on the Saturn before the Playstion version (and possibly PC version too). > Sega clearly did much better with the Dreamcast, but I think there was a > lot of developer bad blood after the Saturn (both for technical and > marketing reasons). > Yes, and the same could be said for Nintendo after the Nintendo 64. Not very many companies took the time to really push the Gamecube hardware, other than Nintendo, Rare (Starfox Adventures has awesome visuals), Capcom (Resident Evil 4), Level 5 (Star Wars: Rogue Squadron 2 & 3) and the developers behind Eternal Darkness (the sanity meter *must* return in more modern games, that was the coolest feature ever). Most simply ported PS2 and PS1 games to the Gamecube and it clearly showed, especially compared to the other games I have mentioned. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 3 16:46:18 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:46:18 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) References: <201005030407.o4347s5e017010@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <006201caeb0c$9bdd31a0$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 5:07 AM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) > > > > Even the Sega Saturn was better than the PS1, though it was not as > > > > popular. > > > > > > The Saturn was hard to program, however. As I recall the polygons were > > > based on quadrilaterals, not triangles, which made porting and modeling > > > more troublesome regardless of its rendering advantages. And the CPU was > > > sloooooooow. > > > > Didn't the saturn have 2 CPU's > > Sorry, CPUs, plural. *They* were slooooooow. > They weren't that slow, 27Mhz compared to the PS2's 33Mhz. Polygon-wise, the Saturn maxed out at 500,000 per second, compared to the PS2's 750,000 per second. However, the Saturn had far superior sprite handling capabilities - especially useful for games like Guardian Heroes. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 3 18:01:26 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 19:01:26 -0400 Subject: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? In-Reply-To: <4BDF3A17.1090900@bitsavers.org> References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> <4BDF2FF3.2030401@atarimuseum.com> <4BDF39AF.2010501@bitsavers.org> <4BDF3A17.1090900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BDF55C6.7040106@atarimuseum.com> EXCELLENT!!! Thanks Al... I love the motif of the Viewpoint/Globalview desktop... Curt Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/3/10 2:01 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 5/3/10 1:20 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> Anyone have these available - I would like to try them out on a x86 >>> box. >>> >> >> There is a simulation of Viewpoint under Windows written by Don Woodward >> called Dawn. >> > http://www.woodward.org/mps/index.html > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon May 3 19:02:36 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:02:36 -0300 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><4BDE0143.2040205@philpem.me.uk> <005f01caeb0c$978f8260$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <178001caeb1e$cfd501b0$13a160bd@portajara> > Yeah, that cracked me up. After the PS3's launch Sony continually removed > feature after feature - the only things I can think of now is the > backwards > compatibilty and the 'Other OS' feature, but I know there were several > things they removed. But these are both sides of the same coin Backwards compatibility was removed as a cost-saving feature! It is cheaper to buy a new/used PS2 and use than buy the older (and more expensive) version of the PS3. It was done, and it was good :) "Other OS" was something REMOVED from sold units. You have no option, you'll have to upgrade someday and it WILL BE removed from your PS3, thing you bought with your money. This is **stealing**. Not good. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon May 3 19:15:11 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:15:11 -0300 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: Message-ID: <179601caeb21$afa932f0$13a160bd@portajara> > And I am not looking forward to having to repair our Bravia. According to > the service manual, you board-swap the PSU but fix the signal processing > PCB at component level. That's a PCB containing BGA-packaged chips, > fine-pitch PQFPs, etc. And all you get is a schematic, no waveforms, or > anything like that. Hmmm.... STOP THE PRESSES!!! STOP THE PRESSES!!! STOP THE PRESSES!!! STOP THE PRESSES!!! STOP THE PRESSES!!! Tony Duell, you have something (technologicaly) new at home??? :oO I think someone steal the e-mail account of our friend Tony :oD :o) Your fan Alexandre :) PS: Friendly...friendly... From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 3 19:41:58 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 19:41:58 -0500 Subject: OT: Stealthbid In-Reply-To: References: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net> <4BDEF7CD.5020904@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4BDF6D56.1060807@oldskool.org> I prefer esnipe, as it runs on their servers which are maintained better than mine. Plus if my desktops are powered off, the snipe still happens. Satisfied customer for nearly a decade. On 5/3/2010 12:14 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Mon, 3 May 2010, Barry L. Kline wrote: > >> Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> Hey, whatever happened to Stealthbid? I used it often but haven't in a >>> while .... now it seems to be dead/gone. >>> >> >> If you can't find that one Evan you can try JBidWatcher. I have used >> it for a long time and it works quite well, assuming that you have a JVM >> loaded on your machine. > > I'll second that: > > http://www.jbidwatcher.com/ > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 3 19:50:12 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 19:50:12 -0500 Subject: Console programming In-Reply-To: <4BDE6256.1050107@atarimuseum.com> References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org> <4BDE613A.2060900@mail.msu.edu> <4BDE6256.1050107@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4BDF6F44.1090904@oldskool.org> On 5/3/2010 12:42 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Once you understand the TIA even just remotely - its a damned fun > console to code on, the Atari 2600 is still being pushed well past its > envelope even today, if you check out the programming section on the > forums at atariage.com - there is a constant run of new games being > done. If you want to check out a truly INCREDIBLE new Atari 2600 game - > check out Dungeon - I never thought a game like that could be done on > the Atari 2600. What about it makes you think it couldn't be done? It's got simplistic graphics and probably doesn't need more than 128 bytes of RAM. The games that impress me are K.O. Cruiser (Punch-Out for Atari!) and Merlin's Walls which implements a raycasting engine at 60fps. The trick to the latter is rotating the maze on its side, which allows for the symmetrical playfield graphics to be used as (now) vertical strips for the walls. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 3 20:00:29 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 20:00:29 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BDF71AD.8000907@oldskool.org> On 5/3/2010 10:34 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I reckon one could argue persuasively that no other single machine had > such an influence. People laugh at me when I state the same of the PCjr, but I feel the same way. Without the PCjr introducing 16-color graphics and 3-voice sound, I don't think the PC as a gaming platform would have taken off. Why? Because while the PCjr died a horrible death, the Tandy 1000 (which was a clone of the PCjr, not the PC) survived and did quite well, and Sierra continued to support the enhancements on all Tandy 1000s, which gave it a real sales edge, which other companies noticed, which started to do the same. It's hard to remember that sound boards on the PC were not using for gaming until Sierra pushed very hard for it in 1987. Until that point, they were all music- or speech-only applications. And Sierra wouldn't have pushed if they hadn't been frustrated by the 3-voice limitation of the Tandy 1000/PCjr. So, the little PCjr holds a special place in my heart. Just don't ask me to describe how many sidecars are necessary to fill that space... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 3 21:05:32 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 21:05:32 -0500 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <201003121458.o2CEwgpR015466@floodgap.com> References: <201003121227.o2CCRTjI022865@billY.EZWIND.NET> <201003121458.o2CEwgpR015466@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201005040209.o4428t5A070450@billY.EZWIND.NET> In mid-March on this thread, I described an old IBM Deskstar 20 gig from a Mac G3 that died. I sent the drive to Gillware.com for recovery. My experience? In general, I'm happy that the data was recovered. I'm unhappy in the sense that I'm out $800 without any explanation, or new professional connection to a service I might need to use in the future, and for the yucky feeling of dealing with clueless and misleading customer service people. I get this feeling that it's my expectations that may not be reasonable, and that I was dealing with an industry that's known for bait-and-switch and rough treatment. My initial diagnosis was correct, apparently. This looked like and sounded like an NVRAM failure (as described in my initial post about this.) I told them this in my service request on their web site. However, the customer service person at intake did not follow through on my requests to see if I'd receive a discount as an affiliate (I'd signed up a year before, they give a finder's fee of 15% or so), if the charge would be different if it was just an NVRAM problem, or if I could pay less to get a pure block recovery and not a file-level recovery. I had to send them a new drive to hold the recovered data along with the old drive. Apparently asking for a block-copy isn't their practice, as it can lead to situations where the customer is given a bunch of data that doesn't contain what they wanted and doesn't want to pay for it post-facto. First they told me in an email and a phone call that I would be subject to up to $300 in addtiional clean room fees, which I had to approve before they'd proceed, which I did. Later I was told the recovery would cost $800, which is more than the $700 minimum for Mac data. (And twice the price than if the drive was PC.) When they've recovered your files, they send you a viewer that shows you the names of the files they've recovered. When they called to say it was ready, I asked to speak to a technician before they charged my card. My request was ignored. I received my new drive with no explanation. I had to make a specific request to have my old drive returned. Indeed, the NVRAM was resoldered. Apparently asking for an explanation of what was wrong with your drive is not within their practice, either, nor are they willing to tell what they did to fix it even in vague terms. After emailing some complaints, I received a voice mail message from the founder, Brian Gill, and later I spoke directly to the engineer who actually worked on my drive. Apparently a great number of their customers are (as they put it) "amateur data recovery personnel that would love to know how we recover data" and "if we inform people what we do and how we do it we would not get any future cases." The engineer said the case record had no details about what was actually wrong with my drive or how they repaired it. They can't explain what they did for $700, nor for the $100 that brought it to $800. I'm baffled by this. The founder's voice mail said I wasn't charged clean room fees. The engineer said if their sticker was on the drive then they had to open it. He also suggested that they'd waived the clean room fees because I was paying Mac prices, or that the parts it needed were so cheap that they didn't want to charge me. The drive seals are as dusty as they were when I sent them the drive. Don't you clean a drive before you put it in the clean room? I wanted to find a data recovery service that could give me good service and a professional level of interaction when it came to explaining what happened to the drive and presumably about the chances for recovery. I didn't get that. I like paying for the services I get. I don't like the feeling that I'm paying bend-over prices and that I should thank them for telling me nothing. - John From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 3 21:40:16 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 03:40:16 +0100 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <201005040209.o4428t5A070450@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201003121227.o2CCRTjI022865@billY.EZWIND.NET> <201003121458.o2CEwgpR015466@floodgap.com> <201005040209.o4428t5A070450@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 3:05 AM, John Foust wrote: > > In mid-March on this thread, I described an old IBM Deskstar > 20 gig from a Mac G3 that died. ?I sent the drive to Gillware.com > for recovery. > > My experience? ?In general, I'm happy that the data was recovered. > I'm unhappy in the sense that I'm out $800 without any explanation, > or new professional connection to a service I might need to use in > the future, and for the yucky feeling of dealing with clueless > and misleading customer service people. ?I get this feeling that > it's my expectations that may not be reasonable, and that I was > dealing with an industry that's known for bait-and-switch and > rough treatment. > > My initial diagnosis was correct, apparently. ?This looked like > and sounded like an NVRAM failure (as described in my initial > post about this.) ?I told them this in my service request on > their web site. ?However, the customer service person at intake > did not follow through on my requests to see if I'd receive a > discount as an affiliate (I'd signed up a year before, they > give a finder's fee of 15% or so), if the charge would be > different if it was just an NVRAM problem, or if I could pay > less to get a pure block recovery and not a file-level recovery. > > I had to send them a new drive to hold the recovered data along > with the old drive. > > Apparently asking for a block-copy isn't their practice, as it > can lead to situations where the customer is given a bunch of > data that doesn't contain what they wanted and doesn't want to > pay for it post-facto. > > First they told me in an email and a phone call that I would be > subject to up to $300 in addtiional clean room fees, which I had > to approve before they'd proceed, which I did. ?Later I was told > the recovery would cost $800, which is more than the $700 minimum > for Mac data. ?(And twice the price than if the drive was PC.) > > When they've recovered your files, they send you a viewer that > shows you the names of the files they've recovered. ?When they > called to say it was ready, I asked to speak to a technician > before they charged my card. ?My request was ignored. ?I received > my new drive with no explanation. ?I had to make a specific request > to have my old drive returned. ?Indeed, the NVRAM was resoldered. > > Apparently asking for an explanation of what was wrong with > your drive is not within their practice, either, nor are they > willing to tell what they did to fix it even in vague terms. > > After emailing some complaints, I received a voice mail message > from the founder, Brian Gill, and later I spoke directly to the > engineer who actually worked on my drive. ?Apparently a great > number of their customers are (as they put it) "amateur data > recovery personnel that would love to know how we recover data" and > "if we inform people what we do and how we do it we would not get > any future cases." > > The engineer said the case record had no details about what > was actually wrong with my drive or how they repaired it. ?They > can't explain what they did for $700, nor for the $100 that brought > it to $800. ?I'm baffled by this. > > The founder's voice mail said I wasn't charged clean room fees. > The engineer said if their sticker was on the drive then they > had to open it. ?He also suggested that they'd waived the clean > room fees because I was paying Mac prices, or that the parts it > needed were so cheap that they didn't want to charge me. ?The > drive seals are as dusty as they were when I sent them the drive. > Don't you clean a drive before you put it in the clean room? > > I wanted to find a data recovery service that could give me > good service and a professional level of interaction when it > came to explaining what happened to the drive and presumably > about the chances for recovery. ?I didn't get that. ?I like > paying for the services I get. ?I don't like the feeling that > I'm paying bend-over prices and that I should thank them for > telling me nothing. Well, I know nothing about the price of professional data recover in the USA, but having sent several backupless consultancy clients of mine down that road before now, I can tell you than in the UK, you could add a zero onto those prices. As in, ?5000-?8000 for a typical job. That's broadly $7500-$12000. And yes, I've known people pay it. ?3000 was cheap, and the only quotes I've ever had of under ?1000 were for relatively-speaking trivial jobs where serious work was not needed. The company's customer service sounds bad, but by European standards, the price is very very good. The last time I used it, the first pass, where they look at the drive and tell you if /maybe/ they can recover some stuff and give you a directory listing of what, that alone was ?350 or so, plus courier fees etc., coming to ?400 in total. That was without any actual work, and it cost about what you paid for the whole job. I don't know if that makes you feel any better at all... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 3 21:45:35 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:45:35 -0500 Subject: OT: Stealthbid In-Reply-To: <4BDF6D56.1060807@oldskool.org> References: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net> <4BDEF7CD.5020904@attglobal.net> <4BDF6D56.1060807@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > I prefer esnipe, as it runs on their servers which are maintained better > than mine. ?Plus if my desktops are powered off, the snipe still happens. > ?Satisfied customer for nearly a decade. Same here, but for powersnipe.com Hey, who woulda thought that serious collectors are all auction snipers ;) From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon May 3 21:48:46 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:48:46 -0400 Subject: Wang 700A Message-ID: Anyone got a spare couple of duckets for this beauty? ebay item#380230308572 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380230308572 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 3 21:51:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:51:29 -0400 Subject: Wang 700A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 3, 2010, at 10:48 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Anyone got a spare couple of duckets for this beauty? > > ebay item#380230308572 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380230308572 *gasp* *sob* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 3 21:55:54 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 21:55:54 -0500 Subject: OT: Stealthbid In-Reply-To: References: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net> <4BDEF7CD.5020904@attglobal.net> <4BDF6D56.1060807@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BDF8CBA.90703@oldskool.org> On 5/3/2010 9:45 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> I prefer esnipe, as it runs on their servers which are maintained better >> than mine. Plus if my desktops are powered off, the snipe still happens. >> Satisfied customer for nearly a decade. > > Same here, but for powersnipe.com > > Hey, who woulda thought that serious collectors are all auction snipers ;) I only started sniping because, back in the early days of ebay, other people could see what auctions you had outstanding bids on. Others were watching what I was bidding on and outbidding me. I started sniping so that nobody could see what I was bidding on until it was too late, and just kept up the practice because it forces me to bid and walk away. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 3 21:59:20 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 21:59:20 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <006201caeb0c$9bdd31a0$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <201005030407.o4347s5e017010@floodgap.com> <006201caeb0c$9bdd31a0$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BDF8D88.50404@oldskool.org> On 5/3/2010 4:46 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > They weren't that slow, 27Mhz compared to the PS2's 33Mhz. Polygon-wise, the The PS2 has 293MHz CPUs, not 33MHz. Did you mean the PS1? > Saturn maxed out at 500,000 per second, compared to the PS2's 750,000 per PS1 could do 180,000 per second and PS2 could do 66,000,000 per second so I'm really confused what console you're comparing the Saturn to :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon May 3 22:00:46 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:00:46 -0500 Subject: OT: Stealthbid In-Reply-To: <4BDF8CBA.90703@oldskool.org> References: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net> <4BDEF7CD.5020904@attglobal.net> <4BDF6D56.1060807@oldskool.org> <4BDF8CBA.90703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: There's really no reason to bid early on something you want. The best course of action is to wait til the last possible second and bid the most you're willing to spend. Otherwise you are just allowing others to bid up the auction. On May 3, 2010, at 9:55 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/3/2010 9:45 PM, Jason T wrote: >> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>> I prefer esnipe, as it runs on their servers which are maintained better >>> than mine. Plus if my desktops are powered off, the snipe still happens. >>> Satisfied customer for nearly a decade. >> >> Same here, but for powersnipe.com >> >> Hey, who woulda thought that serious collectors are all auction snipers ;) > > I only started sniping because, back in the early days of ebay, other people could see what auctions you had outstanding bids on. Others were watching what I was bidding on and outbidding me. I started sniping so that nobody could see what I was bidding on until it was too late, and just kept up the practice because it forces me to bid and walk away. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 3 22:03:01 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 23:03:01 -0400 Subject: Wang 700A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201005032303.02159.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 May 2010, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Anyone got a spare couple of duckets for this beauty? > > ebay item#380230308572 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380230308572 Hmm, I just gave one to another list member for a lot less than that. Of course, mine wasn't quite in working condition, but it'll make me feel better if this one doesn't get any bids at that price. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Mon May 3 22:05:41 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 22:05:41 -0500 Subject: Console programming In-Reply-To: <006301caeb0c$9d45e960$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org> <006301caeb0c$9d45e960$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BDF8F05.2070209@oldskool.org> On 5/3/2010 4:54 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > The thing that put people off was (excluding the popularity of the SNES and > Megadrive/Genesis) that it was an unknown product with no big name game - Right, I had already mentioned the lack of a recognizable license. Even PS1 had Crash Bandicoot; Saturn had Virtual Fighter; Turbo Grafix had Bonk; etc. Lynx and Jaguar had... nothing. > Not to mention that damn controller, who needs 30 odd buttons on a > controller! Todays controllers have about 8 buttons, plus a d-pad and 2 > analogue sticks. Jag controller had a d-pad, three action buttons, and 12 "numeric" buttons for a total of 16 core elements. PS3 controller has two sticks, a dpad, four buttons action buttons, four shoulder buttons, a "click" rocker on each stick, and tilt/orientation sensing for a total of 15 core elements -- seems like the PS3 controller caught up to the jag controller... > Did you get the CD unit for it? I believe it sat in the cartridge slot of > the Jaguar, so you could play CD-based games. I didn't. I was so depressed by the entire affair that I sold everything Jag-related I had 4 years ago for $40 total at a local computer game expo. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon May 3 22:21:02 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 22:21:02 -0500 Subject: Console programming In-Reply-To: <4BDF8F05.2070209@oldskool.org> References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org> <006301caeb0c$9d45e960$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BDF8F05.2070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <0B54B1A1-682A-40FE-8C03-2142751227EC@bellsouth.net> The Lynx may not have had any popular big name games, but it did have quite a lot of excellent games in its library. To this day it's my favorite handheld system. On May 3, 2010, at 10:05 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/3/2010 4:54 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> >> The thing that put people off was (excluding the popularity of the SNES and >> Megadrive/Genesis) that it was an unknown product with no big name game - > > Right, I had already mentioned the lack of a recognizable license. Even PS1 had Crash Bandicoot; Saturn had Virtual Fighter; Turbo Grafix had Bonk; etc. Lynx and Jaguar had... nothing. > >> Not to mention that damn controller, who needs 30 odd buttons on a >> controller! Todays controllers have about 8 buttons, plus a d-pad and 2 >> analogue sticks. > > Jag controller had a d-pad, three action buttons, and 12 "numeric" buttons for a total of 16 core elements. PS3 controller has two sticks, a dpad, four buttons action buttons, four shoulder buttons, a "click" rocker on each stick, and tilt/orientation sensing for a total of 15 core elements -- seems like the PS3 controller caught up to the jag controller... > >> Did you get the CD unit for it? I believe it sat in the cartridge slot of >> the Jaguar, so you could play CD-based games. > > I didn't. I was so depressed by the entire affair that I sold everything Jag-related I had 4 years ago for $40 total at a local computer game expo. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 3 22:26:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 20:26:20 -0700 Subject: OT: Stealthbid In-Reply-To: References: <4BDEF1E7.6050200@snarc.net>, <4BDF6D56.1060807@oldskool.org>, Message-ID: <4BDF316C.23203.242D584@cclist.sydex.com> On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Jim Leonard > wrote: > I prefer esnipe, as it runs on their servers which are > maintained better > than mine. ?Plus if my desktops are powered off, > the snipe still happens. > ?Satisfied customer for nearly a decade. esnipe here--as a legacy customer, I pay nothing if I win with a bid under $25. That covers a lot of small stuff, so why bother with a regular bid? --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 3 23:15:23 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 00:15:23 -0400 Subject: Console programming In-Reply-To: <4BDF8F05.2070209@oldskool.org> References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> <006301caeb0c$9d45e960$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BDF8F05.2070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <201005040015.23485.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 May 2010, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jag controller had a d-pad, three action buttons, and 12 "numeric" > buttons for a total of 16 core elements. PS3 controller has two > sticks, a dpad, four buttons action buttons, four shoulder buttons, > a "click" rocker on each stick, and tilt/orientation sensing for a > total of 15 core elements -- seems like the PS3 controller caught up > to the jag controller... Plus the Start, Select, and PS3 buttons. :) True, you can't use the PS3 button to control the game, but the rest are up for grabs. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 3 23:35:52 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:35:52 -0700 Subject: Disk for Canon Cat In-Reply-To: <4BDD9D0A.9909.1555C9C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com>, , <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <4BDD9D0A.9909.1555C9C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck Al Kossow mentioned that you may have worked with the Canon Cat's disk format. I think it is some form of GCR but not sure. Have you had any experience with it? I have a Canon Cat but I have no idea what it puts onto the disk. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 3 23:38:58 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:38:58 -0700 Subject: Disk for Canon Cat In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, , <4BDD9D0A.9909.1555C9C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: oops, hit send before engaging the brain. This was meant to be private to Chuck. Dwight > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Disk for Canon Cat > Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 21:35:52 -0700 > > > > Hi Chuck > > Al Kossow mentioned that you may have worked > > with the Canon Cat's disk format. > > I think it is some form of GCR but not sure. > > Have you had any experience with it? I have a > > Canon Cat but I have no idea what it puts onto > > the disk. > > Dwight > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon May 3 17:40:29 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 17:40:29 -0500 Subject: Bell and Howell Apple II+'s? Message-ID: Anyone on the list have one with the backside expansion and side I/O port? I just picked up two of them, one without any of the mods that's in great shape and another that's with those mods but it's in pieces. All the actual connectors and such from the side port and the back carriage are just loose (not hooked up to anything on the board) and half the chips are missing from the II+ board. Considering combining the two units but have no idea where everything is supposed to hook up. Marty From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue May 4 05:56:50 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 06:56:50 -0400 Subject: Drive recovery Message-ID: <20100504105650.20652BA5621@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > In general, I'm happy that the data was recovered. > I'm unhappy in the sense that I'm out $800 without any explanation, > or new professional connection to a service I might need to use in > the future, and for the yucky feeling of dealing with clueless > and misleading customer service people. Not trying to sound pessimistic but most businesses are set up to deliver a service or product for the money. It is a kind of professionalism (although not the profesionalism you expected) to deliver the same uniform service to all customers. When your expectations fall outside the standard services there can be a kind of impedance mismatch going on... you don't get what you want, they probably never understood what you wanted, there may not even be a mechanism in place to figure out what you really wanted. Technically I think your expectations were very reasonable especially considering it was just a NVRAM failure ... and money wise them charging you for clean room services in the case of a NVRAM failure makes no sense at all. So I understand your dissatisfaction that way. At the other end, there are professional consulting companies which do really good at sucking up lots of $ listening to what the customer wants but never have the obligation of actually delivering anything at all. A huge chunk of the IT industry is set up that way. Tim. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue May 4 09:51:37 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 07:51:37 -0700 Subject: Good advice re: Cleaning with compressed air... Message-ID: <201005040751.37640.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Good advice regarding cleaning Tektronix gear (From the "TekScopes" List) - but applicable to any equipment with DC fans... From: "Mac Perkins" (Pacific Studio, Inc) "Spinning up a DC fan with compressed air also makes it a remarkably good generator, whose output voltage can easily exceed its normal supply, damaging either its internal driver circuitry or if you're really lucky other components that share the same power rail. We had a series of mysterious failures on rental units that were routinely blown out on return. The rental warehouse staff liked to see how high a pitch they could create by spinning up the fans with shop air. I did a little testing and found the 12 V rail was around 20 V when this was done, with the rest of the circuitry unpowered, leading to failures of several power drivers. We required that the fan be immobilized before blowing down the units, and the failures stopped. A small screwdriver through the fan works well and is difficult to miss - we tried toothpicks, but they did not always get removed." -- Lyle Bickley, KF6ZGI Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue May 4 11:12:42 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 12:12:42 -0400 Subject: Bell and Howell Apple II+'s? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have one, I'll try to take some internal pictures and post them somewhere. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Anyone on the list have one with the backside expansion and side I/O > port? I just picked up two of them, one without any of the mods > that's in great shape and another that's with those mods but it's in > pieces. All the actual connectors and such from the side port and the > back carriage are just loose (not hooked up to anything on the board) > and half the chips are missing from the II+ board. Considering > combining the two units but have no idea where everything is supposed > to hook up. > > > Marty > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 4 11:18:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 12:18:59 -0400 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <20100504105650.20652BA5621@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100504105650.20652BA5621@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <19145F76-7FD9-45BF-8F4B-5EFA63205E45@neurotica.com> On May 4, 2010, at 6:56 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: >> In general, I'm happy that the data was recovered. >> I'm unhappy in the sense that I'm out $800 without any explanation, >> or new professional connection to a service I might need to use in >> the future, and for the yucky feeling of dealing with clueless >> and misleading customer service people. > > Not trying to sound pessimistic but most businesses are set up > to deliver a service or product for the money. ...and some businesses are run by people who think that essentially "smash and grab" tactics are acceptable, like the asshole who runs the company mentioned here. They won't get a dime of my money after hearing about what happened to John. > It is a kind of professionalism > (although not the profesionalism you expected) to deliver the same > uniform > service to all customers. When your expectations fall outside the > standard services there can be a kind of impedance mismatch going > on... > you don't get what you want, they probably never understood what you > wanted, there may not even be a mechanism in place to figure out what > you really wanted. > > Technically I think your expectations were very reasonable especially > considering it was just a NVRAM failure ... and money wise them > charging > you for clean room services in the case of a NVRAM failure makes no > sense > at all. So I understand your dissatisfaction that way. In our society, "the norm" for product/service expectations is set by Wal*Mart, meaning cheap, unrepairable made-in-China plastic garbage that fails and becomes useless WAY prematurely, sold in dirty stores by minimum-wagers with no product knowledge and purchased primarily by the toothless "football 'n Bud Light!" masses who don't know any better and couldn't care less. People who actually pay attention to what they're buying and what they get for their money are few and far between. > At the other end, there are professional consulting companies which > do really good at sucking up lots of $ listening to what the customer > wants but never have the obligation of actually delivering anything > at all. > A huge chunk of the IT industry is set up that way. Ahh, I still have a slight anal burning sensation from watching that happen at Digex. The kickbacks to management were substantial. I expect that's pretty common. It was unbelievable; it almost started looking like the federal government. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 4 11:40:43 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 11:40:43 -0500 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <19145F76-7FD9-45BF-8F4B-5EFA63205E45@neurotica.com> References: <20100504105650.20652BA5621@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <19145F76-7FD9-45BF-8F4B-5EFA63205E45@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201005041641.o44Gf2kU008508@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:18 AM 5/4/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > ...and some businesses are run by people who think that >essentially "smash and grab" tactics are acceptable, like the asshole >who runs the company mentioned here. They won't get a dime of my >money after hearing about what happened to John. In my case, I shouldn't have been so impatient. If I'd thought about it slowly, I didn't need much of the old data right away. In theory I could've shopped around more, spent time calling places to ask about what they could do for me, sent the drive out a few times... but my time is money, too. Maybe there aren't any drive repair places that would've charged me appropriate amounts for what had to be done, like $250 to repair the NVRAM or $1000 to replace the heads. Maybe they're all fixed-price. I can also appreciate that this service (in general) has dropped significantly in price in the last few years. I appreciate Tim's comments, too. I'm a consultant. Yes, I laugh and remind the client that I'm happy to sit and talk with them as I'm paid by the hour. I do feel I deliver, though. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 4 11:49:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 12:49:06 -0400 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <201005041641.o44Gf2kU008508@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20100504105650.20652BA5621@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <19145F76-7FD9-45BF-8F4B-5EFA63205E45@neurotica.com> <201005041641.o44Gf2kU008508@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <54A8C507-559D-46B9-BCDB-3EFADD5B74FF@neurotica.com> On May 4, 2010, at 12:40 PM, John Foust wrote: >> ...and some businesses are run by people who think that >> essentially "smash and grab" tactics are acceptable, like the asshole >> who runs the company mentioned here. They won't get a dime of my >> money after hearing about what happened to John. > > In my case, I shouldn't have been so impatient. If I'd thought about > it slowly, I didn't need much of the old data right away. In theory > I could've shopped around more, spent time calling places to ask about > what they could do for me, sent the drive out a few times... but my > time is money, too. > > Maybe there aren't any drive repair places that would've charged > me appropriate amounts for what had to be done, like $250 to repair > the NVRAM or $1000 to replace the heads. Maybe they're all fixed- > price. > I can also appreciate that this service (in general) has dropped > significantly in price in the last few years. Well yeah...anyone with important data is storing it on a RAID array. ;) > I appreciate Tim's comments, too. I'm a consultant. Yes, I laugh and > remind the client that I'm happy to sit and talk with them as I'm > paid by the hour. I do feel I deliver, though. I do a lot of consulting work, always have. I'm really bad about billing though. I just can't bill someone for just talking, even if I'm explaining things to a client. I know I should, but I have a really hard time with it. That's not without its benefits, though. My primary gig right now (replacing the IT and point-of-sale infrastructure for a small local retail store chain, a big Windows purge) has gotten a lot of my time for free, but the guy knows it, and when I do hand him a bill, he doesn't question anything on it, he drops whatever he's doing and writes me a check on the spot. I really like that. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Tue May 4 13:26:20 2010 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 14:26:20 -0400 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <131906.88626.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201005041426.21088.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 01 May 2010 03:36:59 pm Chris M wrote: > I happen to have a probe I picked up from somewhere in my garbage garage. The inputs on these 2 scopes require 1Mohm wit either 22pF or 47 pF of capacitance. No... > What does this mean? There's simply a capacitor between the coax? The resistance part is strait forward presumably. If that's the case, then you can just jury rig an acceptable probe, no? It means that the input impedance of that connector is 1 Mohm. And that it has the equivalent of 22-47pF of capacitance across it. The reason it's important to know this is that if you want a waveform to display properly you need to compensate for that in the design of the probe that's attached to that input. Usually it's a 10X probe (meaning it attenuates the signal by a factor of 10) and has a series resistor of 9Mohm or so, plus some capacitance in the cable. There's typically a trimmer capacitor in the probe somewhere to adjust this so that square waves are actually shown as being square. Too much one way and the corners get rounded off, too much the other way and there's overshoot... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 4 14:14:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:14:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <179601caeb21$afa932f0$13a160bd@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at May 3, 10 09:15:11 pm Message-ID: > > > And I am not looking forward to having to repair our Bravia. According to > > the service manual, you board-swap the PSU but fix the signal processing > > PCB at component level. That's a PCB containing BGA-packaged chips, > > fine-pitch PQFPs, etc. And all you get is a schematic, no waveforms, or > > anything like that. Hmmm.... > > STOP THE PRESSES!!! > STOP THE PRESSES!!! > STOP THE PRESSES!!! > STOP THE PRESSES!!! > STOP THE PRESSES!!! > > Tony Duell, you have something (technologicaly) new at home??? :oO Actually I don't. It's not mine, it's my father's... I watch very little television. In a world full of books and manuals to read, computers, cameras, clocks, etc to repair, electronic aad mechancial things to make, firmware to write, and so on, I find very little time to watch the garbage put out by the television companies > I think someone steal the e-mail account of our friend Tony :oD Ah, but notice that I did buy the service manual for it. I can;'t have changed that much :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 4 13:53:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:53:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BDF274F.1090905@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 3, 10 08:43:11 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > And I am not looking forward to having to repair our Bravia. According = > to=20 > > the service manual, you board-swap the PSU but fix the signal processin= > g=20 > > PCB at component level. > > Wow. Knowing Sony, I'd have expected that to be the other way around. The manua is inconsistent. At one place it claims that field repair of the PSU is not supported for safety reasons. At another it says that the PSU is a bought-in module, not made by Sony, so no service information is available. > > But that said -- last time I checked, just about every custom LSI in the=20 > MZ-RH1 is available as a spare part. I seem to recall there are a couple=20 THis does not suprise me. Sony are one of the better companies for selling spares. > Bah, PQFPs aren't difficult to deal with. Hot air soldering stations can=20 True. But the fine-pitch ones are a little more challeneging. > be had for a pittance these days (I spent about =A370 on mine), and the=20 > BGA and PQFP nozzles cost a few quid each, maybe =A310 at the most. > > It's getting the blasted temperature profile right that's the trick... I still don't fancy the job of changing a BGA chip. Particualarly if I am not certain it's the problem.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 4 14:28:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:28:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <201005040209.o4428t5A070450@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at May 3, 10 09:05:32 pm Message-ID: > > > In mid-March on this thread, I described an old IBM Deskstar > 20 gig from a Mac G3 that died. I sent the drive to Gillware.com > for recovery. > > My experience? In general, I'm happy that the data was recovered. > I'm unhappy in the sense that I'm out $800 without any explanation, > or new professional connection to a service I might need to use in > the future, and for the yucky feeling of dealing with clueless > and misleading customer service people. I get this feeling that > it's my expectations that may not be reasonable, and that I was > dealing with an industry that's known for bait-and-switch and > rough treatment. I can see this from both sides. Firslty, I can understand the company not wanting to give away all its secrets. Presumably it has taken time and skill to work them out, and they hardly want to help you set up a competing company. It's similar to the famous invoice 'Drop or oil : $0.01, knowing where to put it : $499.99. Or as I once did '2N3904 transistor :\pounds 0.10, knowing which transistor to change in na undocumetnet prototype machine : \pounds 49.90'. On the otehr hand, I do wonder how much would be given away if they said what they had done. Telling you they changed the NVRAM on your drive (which you already suspected was the problem) may well not help you fix all similar drives in the future. I am not an expert in hard disk repair, but perhaps if I give another example : If I told you that to fix your HP9830 with a blank display I'd changed a 74H40 on the CPU clock module that might well be correct. But it's not going to help you with the next HP9830 with blank display if the fault is (say) a 7474 on the data path board. If it was the NVRAM only (and we don't know this), then there shouldn't have been a clean-room charge, surely. The NVMRAM is on a PCB outside the HDA, isn't it? And yes, if you take a drive into a clean room, you would clean thge exterior first (althoguh you'd probably remove the PCBsm mounting brackets etch outside the clean room amd not clean those up. I am very suspiciouls of that (and yes, I am nt the sort of person who puts little scratch marks on screws so I can see if they have been removed...) I think what would bother me most is the seemingly random pricing structure. If they had said 'We will recover the data from your drive for $1000, flat rate' then fine. Pay them the money if they get your data back. But if they are going to have different charges according to what work they do (e.g whether the HDA has to be opened in a clean room) they I think they have ot eplain what work they did to justify those charges. Do you know if the NVRAM was replaced (did you mark the old chip, or note down the date code, or...)? Does the old drive now work correctly? (Not that I would trust it for any important data, but it would be interesting to test it)). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 4 14:06:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:06:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <006201caeb0c$9bdd31a0$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 3, 10 10:46:18 pm Message-ID: > They weren't that slow, 27Mhz compared to the PS2's 33Mhz. Polygon-wise, the Since when has the master clock frequency been a useful measure of procesor speed? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 4 14:44:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:44:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <201005041641.o44Gf2kU008508@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at May 4, 10 11:40:43 am Message-ID: > > At 11:18 AM 5/4/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ...and some businesses are run by people who think that > >essentially "smash and grab" tactics are acceptable, like the asshole > >who runs the company mentioned here. They won't get a dime of my > >money after hearing about what happened to John. There are certainly some honest repairers out there. Alas there are also some dishonest ones. And there seem to be more of the latter. I've seen repair invoices lisitng work that can't possibly have been done. This is one reason I try to fix everything myself. At least I can't be cheated that way > > In my case, I shouldn't have been so impatient. If I'd thought about > it slowly, I didn't need much of the old data right away. In theory > I could've shopped around more, spent time calling places to ask about > what they could do for me, sent the drive out a few times... but my > time is money, too. Since you were pretty sure it was the NVRAM chip, why didn't you try chaning it yourself? You didn't have anythign to lose by doind that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 4 14:47:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:47:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <54A8C507-559D-46B9-BCDB-3EFADD5B74FF@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 4, 10 12:49:06 pm Message-ID: > I do a lot of consulting work, always have. I'm really bad about > billing though. I just can't bill someone for just talking, even if > I'm explaining things to a client. I know I should, but I have a > really hard time with it. I hae diffiuclty chargeing for anything :-(. Last time it was a complete mechanical rebuild (printer nad card reader) of an HP9810 calculator. Well, the owner is a friend, and he did supply the most expensive stuff I needed (3M COld Shrink) so I couldn't charge him, could I? Even if I did have to turn a new roller for the card reader. make a new spindle, etc. Brass rod and setscrews are not that expensive... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 4 14:50:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:50:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <201005041426.21088.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason, Sr." at May 4, 10 02:26:20 pm Message-ID: > > On Saturday 01 May 2010 03:36:59 pm Chris M wrote: > > I happen to have a probe I picked up from somewhere in my garbage > garage. The inputs on these 2 scopes require 1Mohm wit either 22pF or 47 > pF of capacitance. > > No... > > > What does this mean? There's simply a capacitor between the coax? > The resistance part is strait forward presumably. If that's the case, > then you can just jury rig an acceptable probe, no? > > It means that the input impedance of that connector is 1 Mohm. And > that it has the equivalent of 22-47pF of capacitance across it. The More precisely, the input _resistance_ is 1MOhm. The impediance is frequency-dependant, and appears to be a 1M resistor in parallel with a 22pF capacitor (or whatever). At high frequencies, that may well be a lot less than 1MOhm. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 4 15:05:01 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 16:05:01 -0400 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE07DED.1000308@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I do a lot of consulting work, always have. I'm really bad about >> billing though. I just can't bill someone for just talking, even if >> I'm explaining things to a client. I know I should, but I have a >> really hard time with it. > > I hae diffiuclty chargeing for anything :-(. Last time it was a complete > mechanical rebuild (printer nad card reader) of an HP9810 calculator. > Well, the owner is a friend, and he did supply the most expensive stuff I > needed (3M COld Shrink) so I couldn't charge him, could I? Even if I did > have to turn a new roller for the card reader. make a new spindle, etc. > Brass rod and setscrews are not that expensive... I tend not to charge friends. I *do* charge cow-orkers though. And I certainly charge people who hear about me through word-of-mouth. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 4 15:09:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 13:09:52 -0700 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: <201005040209.o4428t5A070450@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at May 3, 10 09:05:32 pm, Message-ID: <4BE01CA0.12131.C9EEF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2010 at 20:28, Tony Duell wrote: > I think what would bother me most is the seemingly random pricing > structure. If they had said 'We will recover the data from your drive > for $1000, flat rate' then fine. Pay them the money if they get your > data back. But if they are going to have different charges according > to what work they do (e.g whether the HDA has to be opened in a clean > room) they I think they have ot eplain what work they did to justify > those charges. > > Do you know if the NVRAM was replaced (did you mark the old chip, or > note down the date code, or...)? Does the old drive now work > correctly? (Not that I would trust it for any important data, but it > would be interesting to test it)). The NVRAM on the Deathstar is JTAG-programmable (in fact, this is one way to get around the password scheme). I suspect that the recovery house simply reprogrammed it. Had it been an actual board-level repair, I suspect that the price would have been much higher, if the basic "we'll look at it" price was $700. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 4 15:35:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 13:35:14 -0700 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <4BE07DED.1000308@gmail.com> References: , <4BE07DED.1000308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BE02292.26692.E12B4F@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2010 at 16:05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I tend not to charge friends. I *do* charge cow-orkers though. And I > certainly charge people who hear about me through word-of-mouth. Dairy cattle from Kirkwall? Sorry, I couldn't resist.... --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 4 13:48:59 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:48:59 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) > On Sunday 02 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I disagree completely. > > > > The Playstation brand may have been popular once (XBox now has that > > honour), but that doesn't make it the "greatest videogame device of > > all time". Personally, I think the SNES and Megadrive jointly > > deserve that honor. Not only did both consoles have excellent and > > unique games, but software and hardware companies came forward to > > push the consoles abilities further with special extra's in the game > > carts: > > Actually, Nintendo's Wii has had many more sales than either Xbox 360 or > PS3. It looks like PS3 is gaining on the Xbox, and I suspect that most > of the Xbox 360 sales at this point are from people who need to replace > their broken Xbox, anyways. :) > Yeah, but the Wii is essentially a fad. Alot of gamers I know bought it, and then either let it sit gathering dust, have passed it on to relatives, or have sold it. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Nintendo (no Wii yet, far to busy and have no space for it in my bedroom). > The only really compelling game exclusively for Xbox is the Halo series, > and that's exclusive because Microsoft bought the company that made it. I disagree. There are loads of great games on Xbox (Gears Of War and Call Of Duty: Modern Warfare are both amazing), and XBox Live is vastly superior to Sony's PSN (Playstation Network) which has download issues (lack of bandwidth) from what I hear. Rare's titles are also excellent, though usually targetted at kids. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 4 14:03:24 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:03:24 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org><37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <010901caebcb$184cdf60$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> Yes, the Spectrum was a great machine. I had the 128K +2 model. Gameswise I had a mixture of homebrew stuff (M. Batty and &e7 (Andy Severn)) spring to mind, but most of the big games I bought were arcade ports. Soundwise, it had a unique music style which I still love today and the few games that seemed to have digitized sound effects showed what could be done with the sound chip. In a similar vein that Robocop Vs. Terminator showed that the Megadrive/Genesis could produce decent quality (digitized) speech compared to what most games had (poor quality speech which was often just mumbling something you struggled to understand). You do have to get used to the controllers for each machine, but today's controllers have come a long way. Racing games are excellent when played with a steering wheel or a controller (usually with the trigger buttons as break and accelerate, and one analogue stick for steering). Many first-person games use two analogue sticks for movement (one for the direction you face and the other for your movement), leaving the other buttons for special moves and weapon select. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2010 2:43 AM > Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > > >> - Sony makes one of the greatest videogame devices of all times. PS1 > was >> a huge success, PS2 IS a huge success (it still sells by the truckloads in >> Brazil) and PS3 will be a huge success for years to come. Believe me. > > I disagree completely. > > The Playstation brand may have been popular once (XBox now has that honour), > but that doesn't make it the "greatest videogame device of all time". > Personally, I think the SNES and Megadrive jointly deserve that honor. Not > only did both consoles have excellent and unique games, but software and > hardware companies came forward to push the consoles abilities further with > special extra's in the game carts: Although it was never really intended as a pure games device, I'd argue for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum. It is often constraint that brings out greatness - Hawking would never have become the world's greatest physicist if not for his MND forcing him to retreat into his own mind, for instance. The Spectrum offered the basics - colour graphics, just; sound, just; a fairly-generous-for-the-time 48KB of RAM; a keyboard for input. The C64 and VIC20 were /designed/ for games, with dedicated hardware for games graphics and sound. The Atari 8-bits were the same. The Speccy had none of this, not even, at first, the ubiquitous GA-Y-8912 sound chip that /everything/ else offered if it didn't have something better like the SID chip. The Speccy was the bottom of the line, the lowest-end machine in the market, but it sold millions because it was cheap, kids could justify it to their parents as an educational tool because it was a "proper computer" not a games console, and it had thousands of games titles. It also had a semi-serious BASIC and programming tools, not the half-assed efforts of Commodore and so on, without even graphics or sound commands. This wasn't a toy machine with built-in joystick ports (always a dead giveaway). It wasn't an elitist expensive educational thing like a BBC Micro, either. It was computing for the everyman. [*snip*] The humble Speccy had a vastly bigger variety of games, as full native apps, than any console before or since, from big companies to tiny one-man-in-his-spare-bedroom efforts. It was what started Codemasters, Rare and the like. I reckon one could argue persuasively that no other single machine had such an influence. The consoles did some clever stuff, but it was all the same sort of game, and only professionals in big companies could develop for it. It didn't interest me then and it doesn't now, really. I have an Xbox to run XBMC and a PS2 to run Guitar Hero and play DVDs, and that is all they ever do. Console games are all samey and dull to me, and always were, and the controllers are horrid and always have been. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 4 14:35:22 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:35:22 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><4BDBFE9E.4107.2AA099@cclist.sydex.com><4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com><4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><4BDE0143.2040205@philpem.me.uk><005f01caeb0c$978f8260$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <178001caeb1e$cfd501b0$13a160bd@portajara> Message-ID: <010d01caebcb$20fdc1b0$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:02 AM Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > > Yeah, that cracked me up. After the PS3's launch Sony continually removed > > feature after feature - the only things I can think of now is the > > backwards > > compatibilty and the 'Other OS' feature, but I know there were several > > things they removed. > > But these are both sides of the same coin > > Backwards compatibility was removed as a cost-saving feature! It is > cheaper to buy a new/used PS2 and use than buy the older (and more > expensive) version of the PS3. It was done, and it was good :) > > "Other OS" was something REMOVED from sold units. You have no option, > you'll have to upgrade someday and it WILL BE removed from your PS3, thing > you bought with your money. This is **stealing**. Not good. > Yes, but these were part of a long list of features advertised and promoted from day 1. Every few months they removed an item from that list. Removing the PS2 hardware was a cost saving thing, as they had switched from including the original PS2 hardware to emulation in later models (there's about 8 PS2 models in total, with different harddrive sizes that help to identify them) which failed on specific PS2 games. Sony and developers were struggling to fix it, so they removed it. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 4 14:50:13 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:50:13 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningofthe end for floppies) References: <201005030407.o4347s5e017010@floodgap.com><006201caeb0c$9bdd31a0$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BDF8D88.50404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <010e01caebcb$2281f0b0$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 3:59 AM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningofthe end for floppies) > On 5/3/2010 4:46 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > They weren't that slow, 27Mhz compared to the PS2's 33Mhz. Polygon-wise, the > > The PS2 has 293MHz CPUs, not 33MHz. Did you mean the PS1? > Yes, not sure why I typed PS2. > > Saturn maxed out at 500,000 per second, compared to the PS2's 750,000 per > > PS1 could do 180,000 per second and PS2 could do 66,000,000 per second > so I'm really confused what console you're comparing the Saturn to :-) Are you sure you're stats are correct? The PS1 had better polygon performance than the Saturn, either that or PS1 ports of Wip3out and Destruction Derby only used hald of the Saturns power (PS1 versions of those games had no polygon pop-up (aka clipping) whilst the Saturns versions did). I believe your PS2 polygon stat is wrong. The Nintendo 64 could only do 1.5 million per second, and the Dreamcast 3 million per second. Where did you get your info from? Mine is from various games mags of the time (Official Sega and Nintendo mags, plus various multiformat magazines). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 4 15:55:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:55:35 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 4, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I watch very little television. In a world full of books and > manuals to > read, computers, cameras, clocks, etc to repair, electronic aad > mechancial things to make, firmware to write, and so on, I find > very little > time to watch the garbage put out by the television companies BRAVO! I haven't had TV reception capability at home since about 1995. I download those very few shows (mostly geeky stuff like Star Trek and Stargate) that I want to watch. I'll be damned if I'm going to PAY for someone to run an advertising pipe into my house. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 4 14:55:20 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 20:55:20 +0100 Subject: Console programming References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org><006301caeb0c$9d45e960$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BDF8F05.2070209@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <010f01caebcb$240dc0d0$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:05 AM Subject: Re: Console programming > On 5/3/2010 4:54 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > Not to mention that damn controller, who needs 30 odd buttons on a > > controller! Todays controllers have about 8 buttons, plus a d-pad and 2 > > analogue sticks. > > Jag controller had a d-pad, three action buttons, and 12 "numeric" > buttons for a total of 16 core elements. PS3 controller has two sticks, > a dpad, four buttons action buttons, four shoulder buttons, a "click" > rocker on each stick, and tilt/orientation sensing for a total of 15 > core elements -- seems like the PS3 controller caught up to the jag > controller... > Oops, I overestimated the number of buttons. It's been atleast a decade since I last saw a Jaguar controller (no I never owned one). > > Did you get the CD unit for it? I believe it sat in the cartridge slot of > > the Jaguar, so you could play CD-based games. > > I didn't. I was so depressed by the entire affair that I sold > everything Jag-related I had 4 years ago for $40 total at a local > computer game expo. That's a shame. How about the Tempest game? I believe that started off on the Jaguar and various versions (e.g. Tempest 2000) were released several years later. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 4 15:59:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:59:43 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On May 4, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > Yeah, but the Wii is essentially a fad. What video game isn't? > Alot of gamers I know bought it, and > then either let it sit gathering dust, have passed it on to > relatives, or > have sold it. > Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Nintendo (no Wii yet, far to busy > and have > no space for it in my bedroom). Everyone I know around here has a Wii and plays it constantly. I think we both have limited sample sets. -D. > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 4 16:16:43 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 17:16:43 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:59 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) > On May 4, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> Yeah, but the Wii is essentially a fad. > > What video game isn't? > There is a difference between classic games like say pacman that people still like to play today, and gimmicks like motion controls (Wii controller) that get old after a period of time. If people still use the Wii in 10 years it will be because of the games being fun, not because of the controller. I still fire up my Playstation 1 even with the dated graphics because the games are fun, same with my C64. How many people bother with the 3DO these days after the CDROM gimmick got old? From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue May 4 16:26:22 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 14:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 4, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> Yeah, but the Wii is essentially a fad. > > What video game isn't? > >> Alot of gamers I know bought it, and >> then either let it sit gathering dust, have passed it on to relatives, or >> have sold it. >> Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Nintendo (no Wii yet, far to busy and >> have >> no space for it in my bedroom). > > Everyone I know around here has a Wii and plays it constantly. I think we > both have limited sample sets. > You can have my Wii Fit when you pry it from my cold, dead, hands. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 4 16:34:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 17:34:40 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> On May 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>> Yeah, but the Wii is essentially a fad. >> >> What video game isn't? >> > > There is a difference between classic games like say pacman that > people still like to play today, and gimmicks like motion controls > (Wii controller) that get old after a period of time. I'm not sure it's fair to call a new controller technology a "gimmick". If it is, then so are wireless controllers, and anything other than a digital Atari-style up-down-left-right joystick. > If people still use the Wii in 10 years it will be because of the > games being fun, not because of the controller. Of course. But that controller enables the creation of a whole slew of new types of games. I've played a few of them myself (on friends' systems, I don't have any video games here) and I recognize that they're a whole new class of stuff. > I still fire up my Playstation 1 even with the dated graphics > because the games are fun, same with my C64. How many people bother > with the 3DO these days after the CDROM gimmick got old? WTF is a 3DO? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 4 16:35:36 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 17:35:36 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE09328.3040809@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> I still fire up my Playstation 1 even with the dated graphics because >> the games are fun, same with my C64. How many people bother with the >> 3DO these days after the CDROM gimmick got old? > > WTF is a 3DO? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3DO_Interactive_Multiplayer Peace... Sridhar From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue May 4 16:49:57 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 14:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <313923.15165.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The 3DO is the most expensive (and crummy) home console ever. :) ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 4:34:40 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) On May 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>> Yeah, but the Wii is essentially a fad. >> >> What video game isn't? >> > > There is a difference between classic games like say pacman that people still like to play today, and gimmicks like motion controls (Wii controller) that get old after a period of time. I'm not sure it's fair to call a new controller technology a "gimmick". If it is, then so are wireless controllers, and anything other than a digital Atari-style up-down-left-right joystick. > If people still use the Wii in 10 years it will be because of the games being fun, not because of the controller. Of course. But that controller enables the creation of a whole slew of new types of games. I've played a few of them myself (on friends' systems, I don't have any video games here) and I recognize that they're a whole new class of stuff. > I still fire up my Playstation 1 even with the dated graphics because the games are fun, same with my C64. How many people bother with the 3DO these days after the CDROM gimmick got old? WTF is a 3DO? -Dave --Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 4 16:53:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 14:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <313923.15165.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> <313923.15165.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100504145227.H66273@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 May 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > The 3DO is the most expensive (and crummy) home console ever. :) Are you claiming that it is NOT the Greatest videogame device? :-) From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue May 4 16:57:04 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 14:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <20100504145227.H66273@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> <313923.15165.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20100504145227.H66273@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <432682.34130.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Greatest price, perhaps. :) I remember it selling for $700 at the WaldenSoftware store I worked at when it was introduced. I think we sold 1, maybe 2 of them ever. I think some of the designers of it came from Amiga. Funny how much churn in personnel there was in home computers and video gaming in the 80's/90's. ________________________________ From: Fred Cisin To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 4:53:09 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) On Tue, 4 May 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > The 3DO is the most expensive (and crummy) home console ever. :) Are you claiming that it is NOT the Greatest videogame device? :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 4 17:01:45 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 18:01:45 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?I'm not sure it's fair to call a new controller technology a "gimmick". ?If > it is, then so are wireless controllers, and anything other than a digital > Atari-style up-down-left-right joystick. Those were gimmicks, too, in their day - we used to spend quite a bit of effort to adapt Atari joysticks to PET User Ports (one is easy, two joysticks takes a bit of effort because there are five switches and eight primary bits - mostly folks used diodes, but I think there was at least one hack that used CA1 or some other handshaking line). -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 4 17:20:32 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 15:20:32 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <432682.34130.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> <313923.15165.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20100504145227.H66273@shell.lmi.net> <432682.34130.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BE09DB0.5040904@bitsavers.org> On 5/4/10 2:57 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I think some of the designers of it came from Amiga. and Apple, and Atari. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 4 18:52:54 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:52:54 -0700 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: <201005040209.o4428t5A070450@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at May 3, 10 09:05:32 pm, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > > Do you know if the NVRAM was replaced (did you mark the old chip, or note > down the date code, or...)? Does the old drive now work correctly? (Not > that I would trust it for any important data, but it would be interesting > to test it)). > > -tony Hi If I was running a drive recovery business, every drive that came in would be opened first in a clean room before powering on. If there was a failure of one of the disk, shipping could have distributed bits to unaffected surfaces. I don't think I could run it any different than that. I'd have to charge for that as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 4 19:04:39 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 01:04:39 +0100 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <54A8C507-559D-46B9-BCDB-3EFADD5B74FF@neurotica.com> References: <20100504105650.20652BA5621@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <19145F76-7FD9-45BF-8F4B-5EFA63205E45@neurotica.com> <201005041641.o44Gf2kU008508@billY.EZWIND.NET> <54A8C507-559D-46B9-BCDB-3EFADD5B74FF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE0B617.30905@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > Well yeah...anyone with important data is storing it on a RAID array. ;) As long as it's not a RAID0 array! > That's not without its benefits, though. My primary gig right now > (replacing the IT and point-of-sale infrastructure for a small local > retail store chain, a big Windows purge) has gotten a lot of my time for > free, but the guy knows it, and when I do hand him a bill, he doesn't > question anything on it, he drops whatever he's doing and writes me a > check on the spot. I really like that. I've had the opposite experience -- usually getting people to pay up is like pulling teeth. The only exception to this was an electronics design company emailing me completely out of the blue and asking me to make them a bootloader for a PIC microcontroller. "We need this, this and this, and we like your existing bootloader -- make it like that if possible." That was pretty painless, though a bit more formal than usual (I sent them a quote, they sent a Purchase Order and some demo hardware, then I sent an invoice and they paid it). I've stopped doing "informal" development work because there's always some argument about what was requested, what's been delivered or how much it's going to cost. If I could stand up in front of a class full of software development students and give a few pearls of wisdom, this is what I'd say: Don't write a single line of code until you have an outline specification of the application and a formal purchase order (or price quote) sitting on your desk, both agreed to and signed by the customer/client. Make certain you've agreed a deadline (and ideally a couple of part-way milestones) and a price with your client. Otherwise they're almost guaranteed to argue that "you said it'd {be cheaper, take less time, make coffee, walk the dog}." "I don't know what I want but I know I want it" type work is never profitable. Rent-a-Coder is worthless unless you're happy to work for less than a pound an hour. Open-source work looks good on a CV though, especially if it's for a major project (Linux kernel, gcc, ...) [I'm still working on that last one!] Geez, I've only done this "semi-professionally" for about five years, and I already sound like my Large Systems Environments lecturer... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 4 20:08:03 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 20:08:03 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE0C4F3.3010709@oldskool.org> On 5/4/2010 2:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> They weren't that slow, 27Mhz compared to the PS2's 33Mhz. Polygon-wise, the > > Since when has the master clock frequency been a useful measure of > procesor speed? When what you're comparing is orders of magnitude faster. You can argue that CISC != RISC or that one CPU is totally different than another, but when I say your 16MHz processor is slower than my 2933MHz processor, it's a useful measure. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 4 20:09:41 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 20:09:41 -0500 Subject: Console programming In-Reply-To: <010f01caebcb$240dc0d0$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <201005030306.o4336MxJ011734@floodgap.com> <4BDE5419.2050102@oldskool.org><006301caeb0c$9d45e960$97fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BDF8F05.2070209@oldskool.org> <010f01caebcb$240dc0d0$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BE0C555.2000407@oldskool.org> On 5/4/2010 2:55 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > That's a shame. How about the Tempest game? I believe that started off on > the Jaguar and various versions (e.g. Tempest 2000) were released several > years later. Tempest 2000 was the Jaguar launch title. Tempest 3000 was a Nuon player game. I have both, and Tempest 3000 looks better but has a slower framerate. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 4 20:10:33 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 20:10:33 -0500 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org> On 5/4/2010 3:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I haven't had TV reception capability at home since about 1995. I > download those very few shows (mostly geeky stuff like Star Trek and > Stargate) that I want to watch. I'll be damned if I'm going to PAY for > someone to run an advertising pipe into my house. Just curious if you PAY for the shows you download. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue May 4 20:12:32 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 20:12:32 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <432682.34130.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> <313923.15165.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20100504145227.H66273@shell.lmi.net> <432682.34130.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BE0C600.7070404@oldskool.org> On 5/4/2010 4:57 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I think some of the designers of it came from Amiga. One of the reasons I love the Atari Lynx: It's a miniature Amiga in many respects (4-channel stereo digitized sound being the standout). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 4 20:28:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 21:28:14 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org> References: <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> On 5/4/10 9:10 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/4/2010 3:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I haven't had TV reception capability at home since about 1995. I >> download those very few shows (mostly geeky stuff like Star Trek and >> Stargate) that I want to watch. I'll be damned if I'm going to PAY for >> someone to run an advertising pipe into my house. > > Just curious if you PAY for the shows you download. You're kidding, right? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 4 21:38:37 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 03:38:37 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <010901caebcb$184cdf60$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDC1783.15468.8BDC90@cclist.sydex.com> <4BDCC9A4.9070509@bitsavers.org> <37B25E36F1BA43269C84BEE9E9495F42@dell8300> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <010901caebcb$184cdf60$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Yes, the Spectrum was a great machine. I had the 128K +2 model. Gameswise I > had a mixture of homebrew stuff (M. Batty and &e7 (Andy Severn)) spring to > mind, but most of the big games I bought were arcade ports. > > Soundwise, it had a unique music style which I still love today and the few > games that seemed to have digitized sound effects showed what could be done > with the sound chip. In a similar vein that Robocop Vs. Terminator showed > that the Megadrive/Genesis could produce decent quality (digitized) speech > compared to what most games had (poor quality speech which was often just > mumbling something you struggled to understand). > > You do have to get used to the controllers for each machine, but today's > controllers have come a long way. Racing games are excellent when played > with a steering wheel or a controller (usually with the trigger buttons as > break and accelerate, and one analogue stick for steering). Many > first-person games use two analogue sticks for movement (one for the > direction you face and the other for your movement), leaving the other > buttons for special moves and weapon select. Oooh, that was a flashy one, that, with a proper keyboard, sound chip, weirdly-bastardised joystick ports and everything! I just got one of those last year, actually - must see if I can resurrect it. The sound chip did help games soundtracks a lot. But the thing is, the golden age of the Speccy was already mostly over when the 128 came along. There were some good games after then - and some clever coders managed a best-of-both-worlds thing, fitting the game into 48K & making it able to run on either model, but produce vastly better sound on a 128 machine. My personal great regret was that when Sinclair designed the 128, they didn't start from the American Timex-Sinclair 2068 machine, which had notably better graphics and a superior bank-switching scheme making CP/M viable. The Amstrad Spectrum +3 did eventually get CP/M, but with a 32-column screen & less than 64K TPA, it was rather crippled. And if Sinkers had been smart enough to find a way to make the QL a superior-specced Speccy-compatible, they'd have probably sold a lot more of them and not foundered and been sold off to Amstrad... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 4 22:05:28 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 04:05:28 +0100 Subject: A fun thought-experiment Message-ID: Everyone knows the "$100 laptop", the OLPC XO-1 machine that spawned the Intel Classmate which in turn spawned the whole "netbook" market. I will warrant that fewer know of the Indian $12 PC, based on a clone of an old Nintendo: http://www.techtree.com/India/News/12_PC_Based_on_a_Game_Console/551-91911-581.html http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9111759/_12_Indian_TV_computer_a_knockoff_of_80s_Nintendo_system_not_Apple_II The $12 PC is horribly compromised, but it's a good idea at heart: a computer so cheap it's affordable for the urban poor. But if one were to try to design an actual computer that cheap, something programmable that could maybe even do email and telnet and really simple TCP/IP-type stuff like that, what would you put in the box? I am taking it as more or less a given that it would have to be a VERY simple 1980s-style 8-bit machine. The easiest way might be to clone one of the 80s home computers, implement it on a chip with some extra software, like Jeri Ellsworth's fantastic Commodore 64 Direct-TV device. But which 8-bit? If you had to fit an entire computer, with storage and software, into an FPGA or some similar device and install it in a keyboard, with a couple of USB ports for storage and connection to a cellphone for communications... Which would be the best, most versatile, capable 1980s 8-bit machine to use? An Apple II with loads of options in virtual "slots"? A Commodore 64, for the graphics, sound and huge games library? A Spectrum, for its simplicity but large range of programming languages and so on? A BBC Micro, with the best BASIC ever and sideways ROM support for additional features? An MSX2 machine, some of the latest and best-equipped 8-bitters? Something exotic, like an Elan Enterprise or MGT SAM Coup?? Or a 1970s mini, like the Russian Electronika BK, a PDP/11-compatible home computer? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektronika_BK -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 4 22:25:11 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 23:25:11 -0400 Subject: A fun thought-experiment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE0E517.40709@atarimuseum.com> I guess if you continue talking about adapting classic computers into a new role - this is relevant to the list. Otherwise it may be way off-topic. Lastly there are simple AVR microcontrollers that can handle almost anything, here is a $3 AVR that can act as a Z80 computer: http://hackaday.com/2010/04/27/emulating-a-z80-computer-with-an-avr-chip/ Curt Liam Proven wrote: > Everyone knows the "$100 laptop", the OLPC XO-1 machine that spawned > the Intel Classmate which in turn spawned the whole "netbook" market. > > I will warrant that fewer know of the Indian $12 PC, based on a clone > of an old Nintendo: > http://www.techtree.com/India/News/12_PC_Based_on_a_Game_Console/551-91911-581.html > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9111759/_12_Indian_TV_computer_a_knockoff_of_80s_Nintendo_system_not_Apple_II > > The $12 PC is horribly compromised, but it's a good idea at heart: a > computer so cheap it's affordable for the urban poor. > > But if one were to try to design an actual computer that cheap, > something programmable that could maybe even do email and telnet and > really simple TCP/IP-type stuff like that, what would you put in the > box? > > I am taking it as more or less a given that it would have to be a VERY > simple 1980s-style 8-bit machine. The easiest way might be to clone > one of the 80s home computers, implement it on a chip with some extra > software, like Jeri Ellsworth's fantastic Commodore 64 Direct-TV > device. > > But which 8-bit? > > If you had to fit an entire computer, with storage and software, into > an FPGA or some similar device and install it in a keyboard, with a > couple of USB ports for storage and connection to a cellphone for > communications... > > Which would be the best, most versatile, capable 1980s 8-bit machine to use? > > An Apple II with loads of options in virtual "slots"? > A Commodore 64, for the graphics, sound and huge games library? > A Spectrum, for its simplicity but large range of programming > languages and so on? > A BBC Micro, with the best BASIC ever and sideways ROM support for > additional features? > An MSX2 machine, some of the latest and best-equipped 8-bitters? > > Something exotic, like an Elan Enterprise or MGT SAM Coup?? > > Or a 1970s mini, like the Russian Electronika BK, a PDP/11-compatible > home computer? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektronika_BK > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 4 22:56:56 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 23:56:56 -0400 Subject: Tek 4010 for sale Message-ID: <201005042356.56277.pat@computer-refuge.org> I have listed my Tek 4010 on ebay (finally) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220600550062 Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 4 23:00:03 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 22:00:03 -0600 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE0C4F3.3010709@oldskool.org> References: <4BE0C4F3.3010709@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE0ED43.5070004@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/4/2010 2:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> They weren't that slow, 27Mhz compared to the PS2's 33Mhz. >>> Polygon-wise, the >> >> Since when has the master clock frequency been a useful measure of >> procesor speed? > > When what you're comparing is orders of magnitude faster. You can argue > that CISC != RISC or that one CPU is totally different than another, but > when I say your 16MHz processor is slower than my 2933MHz processor, > it's a useful measure. That is until you have to access memory. :( Ben. From spc at conman.org Tue May 4 23:34:51 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 00:34:51 -0400 Subject: A fun thought-experiment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100505043451.GA18042@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > > But if one were to try to design an actual computer that cheap, > something programmable that could maybe even do email and telnet and > really simple TCP/IP-type stuff like that, what would you put in the > box? > > I am taking it as more or less a given that it would have to be a VERY > simple 1980s-style 8-bit machine. The easiest way might be to clone > one of the 80s home computers, implement it on a chip with some extra > software, like Jeri Ellsworth's fantastic Commodore 64 Direct-TV > device. > > But which 8-bit? I would prefer the 6809 (which means, Color Computer). The chip is a dream to program for, and with OS-9 (or a derivative) it would almost be like Unix on a chip (not quite, but close enough). Give it the graphics of the Commodore and you might have a winner on your hands. -spc (Who's first computer was 6809 based ... ) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 5 00:07:14 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 23:07:14 -0600 Subject: A fun thought-experiment In-Reply-To: <20100505043451.GA18042@brevard.conman.org> References: <20100505043451.GA18042@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4BE0FD02.3060206@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean Conner wrote: But which 8-bit? > > I would prefer the 6809 (which means, Color Computer). The chip is a > dream to program for, and with OS-9 (or a derivative) it would almost be > like Unix on a chip (not quite, but close enough). Give it the graphics of > the Commodore and you might have a winner on your hands. I thought the Japanese had a similar computer. I am not sure if was 6809 or 68000. But when you think about it, you need lots of memory for 3D graphics, and 16 bit addressing does not cut it. > -spc (Who's first computer was 6809 based ... ) > Ben. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed May 5 00:20:27 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 01:20:27 -0400 Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <344455.76070.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <344455.76070.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BE1001B.3030702@hawkmountain.net> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Sat, 5/1/10, Chris M wrote: > > >> Also picked up a big huge square HP monitor. Don't know >> the part # offhand, but has a datecode of 1984. First time >> I've seen one of these. And I've seen a lot of monitors. I'm >> sure I'm hoping in vain that it takes digital rgb. >> > > Sony GDM1952 perhaps ? I have a SuperMac branded one.... Big honkin 'cube' (it is deeper than front dimensions... but comes closest to be a 'square' monitor than I've seen other than studio/security monitors maybe). -- Curt > Awesome score! I've been looking for one of those for years. It's a fixed frequency analog RGB monitor, and was used by several flavors of workstations (IBM, SUN and HP, I do believe). Awesome picture on that thing. > > -Ian > > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed May 5 00:54:57 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 01:54:57 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the beginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BE10831.4050505@hawkmountain.net> Andrew Burton wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick Finnegan" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:12 PM > Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: the > beginningof the end for floppies) > > > >> On Sunday 02 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: >> >>> I disagree completely. >>> >>> The Playstation brand may have been popular once (XBox now has that >>> honour), but that doesn't make it the "greatest videogame device of >>> all time". Personally, I think the SNES and Megadrive jointly >>> deserve that honor. Not only did both consoles have excellent and >>> unique games, but software and hardware companies came forward to >>> push the consoles abilities further with special extra's in the game >>> carts: >>> >> Actually, Nintendo's Wii has had many more sales than either Xbox 360 or >> PS3. It looks like PS3 is gaining on the Xbox, and I suspect that most >> of the Xbox 360 sales at this point are from people who need to replace >> their broken Xbox, anyways. :) >> >> > > Yeah, but the Wii is essentially a fad. Alot of gamers I know bought it, and > then either let it sit gathering dust, have passed it on to relatives, or > have sold it. > Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of Nintendo (no Wii yet, far to busy and have > no space for it in my bedroom). > I guess I'm unusual... although I'm not a true 'gamer' (the amount of gaming I do in a year is very very very very small). However, I do like the Wii... it isn't much of a powerhouse... but it does have some good titles that you can have a lot of fun with. Of course, maybe because I haven't had anything "better" (in terms of graphics) (other than my PC), I can't miss them :-) The Wii is quite easily 'opened' so you can run lots of homebrew... or backup your games to an external hard drive to avoid the requirements of having to change discs. There are lots of emulators you can run on the Wii including Nintendo64, NES, SNES, Genesis, Atari 8bit computer, Apple II, etc.... Plus the price is more affordable :-) (and for someone who doesn't game all that much... that is a good feature :-) ). -- Curt > > >> The only really compelling game exclusively for Xbox is the Halo series, >> and that's exclusive because Microsoft bought the company that made it. >> > > I disagree. > There are loads of great games on Xbox (Gears Of War and Call Of Duty: > Modern Warfare are both amazing), and XBox Live is vastly superior to Sony's > PSN (Playstation Network) which has download issues (lack of bandwidth) from > what I hear. > Rare's titles are also excellent, though usually targetted at kids. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 5 02:27:47 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 03:27:47 -0400 Subject: Tek 4010 for sale In-Reply-To: <201005042356.56277.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201005042356.56277.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > I have listed my Tek 4010 on ebay (finally) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220600550062 There is a good chance I could haul this (for a fee, of course) to New York in the coming month or so. I need to reroadtrip to Purdue pretty much as soon as I get back for a pickup anyway. -- Will From axelsson at acc.umu.se Tue May 4 04:17:36 2010 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Tue, 04 May 2010 11:17:36 +0200 Subject: Strange formats, was Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <082A5B0EA8ED490C85F4C2DE0F857EF3@udvikling> References: , <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM>, <20100429091152.635964b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4BD8D5AE.18946.3686DDB@cclist.sydex.com> <082A5B0EA8ED490C85F4C2DE0F857EF3@udvikling> Message-ID: <4BDFE630.4030605@acc.umu.se> Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "Chuck Guzis" >> Although I do have an odd case before me. The subject floppies are >> from a Schlumberger wafer tester. What was sent were hard-sector (32 >> sector) floppies, but the data is definitely soft-sector (i.e. the >> sectors don't line up with the sector holes and use address marks >> (i.e. A1 with a missing clock) to demarcate sector headers and >> sector data.) My guess is that the drive was set up to handle hard >> sectored media., so that the controller still sees only one index >> pulse. >> > Some years ago I came across an 8" Norsk Data floppy. The analyze > software called it a IBM 374x, but the data I read was gibberish. > A closer look showed that track 0 was indeed like a 3741. One file was > present. OK so far. > It then showed, that this 1 file was formatted as a normal MS-DOS > directory. I managed to dump this directory to a DOS formatted floppy, > and voila, the data was saved. > Norsk Data supported a couple of formats. For example the 3010 floppy controller card supported - IBM 3740 128 bytes/sector 26 sectors/track - IBM 3600 256 bytes/sector 15 sectors/track - IBM System 32-11 512 bytes/sector 8 sectors/track I think that earlier or later cards supported other formats too but to find that I have to dig into the pile of dead tree media. ... but the directory structure, or lack of it in Sintran III is a totally different story. :-) /G?ran From wgungfu at gmail.com Tue May 4 19:11:47 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 19:11:47 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <20100504145227.H66273@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> <313923.15165.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20100504145227.H66273@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I'll take your 3DO and raise you one Neo-Geo. With comparative release targets ($600-$700 range), unlike the 3DO however the price of Neo-Geo games were $200 on up, easily putting it in the most expensive console range. Marty On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 4 May 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> The 3DO is the most expensive (and crummy) home console ever. :) > > Are you claiming that it is NOT the Greatest videogame device? ? :-) > > > > > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed May 5 04:02:53 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 06:02:53 -0300 Subject: A fun thought-experiment References: Message-ID: <1f4001caec33$fd645a20$13a160bd@portajara> >The $12 PC is horribly compromised, but it's a good idea at heart: a >computer so cheap it's affordable for the urban poor. Millions of USEABLE computers being thrown away everyday, and people think in creating such a beast? C'mon, there are tons of good computers filling landfils, just donate it! :P From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 5 07:50:11 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 05:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: from Martin Goldberg at "May 4, 10 07:11:47 pm" Message-ID: <201005051250.o45CoBJc018504@floodgap.com> > I'll take your 3DO and raise you one Neo-Geo. With comparative > release targets ($600-$700 range), unlike the 3DO however the price > of Neo-Geo games were $200 on up, easily putting it in the most > expensive console range. But Neo-Geo games, unlike 3DO games, don't suck. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Less is more. -- Ludwig Mies van der Rohe ---------------------------------- From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed May 5 07:55:49 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 07:55:49 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> <313923.15165.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20100504145227.H66273@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <84169401-5F78-443E-BD20-69025D6AFF2B@bellsouth.net> That's true... I guess the Neo*Geo takes the cake for most expensive games at least. Each cartridge weighed a ton too... I guess they used nothing but ceramic cased PROMs in them. :) It did have much better titles for sure. On May 4, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > I'll take your 3DO and raise you one Neo-Geo. With comparative > release targets ($600-$700 range), unlike the 3DO however the price > of Neo-Geo games were $200 on up, easily putting it in the most > expensive console range. > > > Marty > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 4 May 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >>> The 3DO is the most expensive (and crummy) home console ever. :) >> >> Are you claiming that it is NOT the Greatest videogame device? :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed May 5 07:55:49 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 07:55:49 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> <0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara> <008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org> <010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> <313923.15165.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <20100504145227.H66273@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <84169401-5F78-443E-BD20-69025D6AFF2B@bellsouth.net> That's true... I guess the Neo*Geo takes the cake for most expensive games at least. Each cartridge weighed a ton too... I guess they used nothing but ceramic cased PROMs in them. :) It did have much better titles for sure. On May 4, 2010, at 7:11 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > I'll take your 3DO and raise you one Neo-Geo. With comparative > release targets ($600-$700 range), unlike the 3DO however the price > of Neo-Geo games were $200 on up, easily putting it in the most > expensive console range. > > > Marty > > On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 4:53 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Tue, 4 May 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >>> The 3DO is the most expensive (and crummy) home console ever. :) >> >> Are you claiming that it is NOT the Greatest videogame device? :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> From fryers at gmail.com Wed May 5 07:56:35 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 12:56:35 +0000 Subject: Looking for a vintage computer for film in Oz... In-Reply-To: References: <4BDDE243.17204.263C325@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: G'Day, On 3 May 2010 03:55, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 1:36 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?20406-Wanted- >> mid-70-s-computer-to-appear-in-film-Bank-scene > > I replied to Louise suggesting Tony Epton (Curator) at Australian > Computer Museum Society (WA inc) > > They did have a IBM 360 Model 40, seen in this picture > > http://aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/Images/InventHiRes/IBM360.jpg Ahhh. That photo.... I am the one in the hat. I guess it will depend on where they are shooting the bank scene.... Perth is a long way from anywhere. Also, having seen Tonys shed, the 360 may not be all that accessible. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed May 5 07:58:24 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 07:58:24 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <201005051250.o45CoBJc018504@floodgap.com> References: <201005051250.o45CoBJc018504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: lol On May 5, 2010, at 7:50 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'll take your 3DO and raise you one Neo-Geo. With comparative >> release targets ($600-$700 range), unlike the 3DO however the price >> of Neo-Geo games were $200 on up, easily putting it in the most >> expensive console range. > > But Neo-Geo games, unlike 3DO games, don't suck. ;-) > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Less is more. -- Ludwig Mies van der Rohe ---------------------------------- From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 5 08:03:33 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 08:03:33 -0500 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> References: <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org> <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE16CA5.4020103@oldskool.org> On 5/4/2010 8:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/4/10 9:10 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> On 5/4/2010 3:55 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> I haven't had TV reception capability at home since about 1995. I >>> download those very few shows (mostly geeky stuff like Star Trek and >>> Stargate) that I want to watch. I'll be damned if I'm going to PAY for >>> someone to run an advertising pipe into my house. >> >> Just curious if you PAY for the shows you download. > > You're kidding, right? Not really. I felt it hypocritical to complain about advertising if you're grabbing shows without paying for them. My main sources of streaming entertainment are netflix and hulu, and I don't mind the advertising on hulu because it's usually of the "2 minutes at the beginning and then here's you're entire show" variety, or 30 seconds at each break instead of 3 minutes at each break, which I feel is acceptable for the convenience of watching whatever I want whenever I want. My only vice is a particular sporting event that is pay-per-view only, so I usually head down to Buffalo Wild Wings or some other sports place to watch them for free, and enjoy some wings while I'm there. This is completely wacky off-topic so I will stop now. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed May 5 09:12:44 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 15:12:44 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > I haven't had TV reception capability at home since about 1995. I > download those very few shows (mostly geeky stuff like Star Trek and > Stargate) that I want to watch. I'll be damned if I'm going to PAY for > someone to run an advertising pipe into my house. Technically, my Bravia can receive DVB-T-encoded TV signals (and analog PAL signals for that matter). I have no idea if it works, because I've only used it to watch live TV once or twice. The PVR gets used A LOT more, mainly because I can fast-forward through the adverts. MythTV Commercial Skipping (aka Comskip) rocks. If there's a TV show I want to watch, I generally wait for the DVD box-set and buy it. Which is why I have a wall covered in Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis DVDs. Oh, and Continuum, Ark of Truth and the Director's Cut of the original Stargate movie. And both Transformers movies on BluRay (the second one signed by Michael Bay). And the Firefly boxset (and the Serenity movie). Then there's the small matter of the Big Bang Theory boxsets by the TV downstairs... On the shopping list -- Eureka, the last season of SGA, first season of Stargate Universe, the next season of Big Bang Theory (think that'd be S03, the one that just finished airing on Channel 4), Sanctuary... Geeky enough for you? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed May 5 09:18:37 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 09:18:37 -0500 Subject: A fun thought-experiment In-Reply-To: <1f4001caec33$fd645a20$13a160bd@portajara> References: <1f4001caec33$fd645a20$13a160bd@portajara> Message-ID: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:02 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > ? Millions of USEABLE computers being thrown away everyday, and people think > in creating such a beast? > > ? C'mon, there are tons of good computers filling landfils, just donate it! > :P I agree. I was thinking the same thing about old cell phones. The ones people are throwing away are vastly more powerful than old 8-bit machines. brian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed May 5 09:20:49 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 15:20:49 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE17EC1.2010509@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I still don't fancy the job of changing a BGA chip. Particualarly if I am > not certain it's the problem.... I tried (emphasis: tried) to resolder a BGA on an Xbox360. Couldn't even get the stupid thing off the PCB (no, it wasn't epoxy-underfilled). The plan was to do a "no-tools" job of reballing it with SnPb solder (that is: do it without a reballing kit), then resolder it. Fat chance. I got one corner to desolder, then heard a loud BANG and realised the PCB had started to warp. Urrgh. Surprisingly it got further into the boot process after the heat-treatment. Now it's throwing out an E73 error instead of a black screen... I'd still like to fix it, though I'm not planning on buying a ?20 set of BGA nozzles (they're custom made for the '360 so not usable for anything else), ~?60 for a BGA reballing kit, and another ?20 for the templates. Frankly, I'm not terribly attached to that '360 (or any '360 for that matter), and I'm willing to bet that it'll die again shortly after I fix it... Reballing is one of those things you can do once, but doing it a second time? I wouldn't rate my chances. Although it would be nice to finish repairing it just so I can mark it down as a successful repair instead of an "indefinitely suspended" repair job. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From brad at heeltoe.com Wed May 5 09:41:46 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:41:46 -0400 Subject: free for pickup; dec TSZ07 9-track tape drive & Tek 453 scope Message-ID: <9963CD5E-0361-4C39-A2FA-4D1060962552@heeltoe.com> Hi, If anyone in the Boston area wants either of these, they are free for pickup: - DEC TSZ07 SCSI 9-track tape drive. It worked fine last time I used it. I think it's 1600bpi only. It's clean but big and heavy. technically it's "desktop", and it is sitting on a table now. - Tek 453 scope Also works last time I used it. It's a little dirty but functional. Two channels, 50Mhz. not as heavy as the tape drive :-) a nice simple scope. I'm available in Arlington MA most days 9-5pm. I could show up in the evening if that works better for someone. -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed May 5 09:53:30 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 10:53:30 -0400 Subject: Selling some of my collection Message-ID: Hello, unfortunately, I am anticipating a move in the future, and thus have to make some decisions about my stuff. And I decided to get rid of all my classic macs (all of them compacts). A 128k (from before they were thus labeled), an SE/30 (with network card and NetBSD installed), and a SE. All of them working fine (well, the display of the SE/30 needs a bit of adjustment of an internal pot: too bright! I'll fix that this weekend). The 128k is in the original carrying bag, and in great physical and working shape. I have posted pics on my website: http://www.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem/classiccmp.html No idea what I can ask for these; and shipping them would be a good chunk of change, too. So I'd prefer a local sale. Make an offer, preferably for all of them together. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 5 10:28:39 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 09:28:39 -0600 Subject: Selling some of my collection In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 05 May 2010 10:53:30 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Joachim Thiemann writes: > No idea what I can ask for these; and shipping them would be a good > chunk of change, too. So I'd prefer a local sale. Make an offer, > preferably for all of them together. Guys. We don't all live in the same town. When you post stuff for sale and make mention of "local", you need to say where you are for it to make any sense whatsoever. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From keithvz at verizon.net Wed May 5 10:40:23 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 11:40:23 -0400 Subject: Selling some of my collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE19167.7000307@verizon.net> Richard wrote: > In article , > Joachim Thiemann writes: > >> No idea what I can ask for these; and shipping them would be a good >> chunk of change, too. So I'd prefer a local sale. Make an offer, >> preferably for all of them together. > > Guys. > > We don't all live in the same town. When you post stuff for sale and > make mention of "local", you need to say where you are for it to make > any sense whatsoever. While I agree with you entirely, from looking at the post, it's likely near McGill University in Montreal, Canada. Keith From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed May 5 10:48:12 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 11:48:12 -0400 Subject: Selling some of my collection In-Reply-To: <4BE19167.7000307@verizon.net> References: <4BE19167.7000307@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 11:40, Keith M wrote: > Richard wrote: >> Guys. >> >> We don't all live in the same town. ?When you post stuff for sale and >> make mention of "local", you need to say where you are for it to make >> any sense whatsoever. > > While I agree with you entirely, from looking at the post, it's likely near > McGill University in Montreal, Canada. Apologies, both Richard and Keith are correct, I should have explicitly stated this is in Montreal, Canada. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed May 5 11:34:32 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 09:34:32 -0700 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:52:54 -0700 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: RE: Drive recovery > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > ---snip--- > > Hi > If I was running a drive recovery business, every drive that came in > would be opened first in a clean room before powering on. If there > was a failure of one of the disk, shipping could have distributed bits > to unaffected surfaces. > I don't think I could run it any different than that. I'd have to charge > for that as well. > Dwight Since most drive failures are not head disk interferences much less a crash, the proposed process would unnecessarily both add cost and increase the risk of head disk interference without, IMO, significantly changing the data recovery probability. The small particles that do the most damage are not visible so I am not sure what one would do upon opening a drive unless there are many large visible particles indicative of a rare catastrophic head crash. When there is a catastrophic head crash the debris is well distributed by the rotating disks, damaging all the heads and disks then. At this point the damage is done and subsequent shipment and testing is not likely to do much more damage. Furthermore, it is extremely difficult, perhaps impossible and certainly expensive to recover data when there is such a catastrophic failure. A simple audio test should be sufficient to detect a catastrophic failure at which point you turn the drive off and consider the very limited options available. One might consider a particle count test for contamination but then it is not clear what one would do about it, purge cycle perhaps. So it seems to me that opening every drive is of little value Tom From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 5 11:56:05 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 17:56:05 +0100 Subject: A fun thought-experiment In-Reply-To: References: <1f4001caec33$fd645a20$13a160bd@portajara> Message-ID: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 3:18 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:02 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: >> ? Millions of USEABLE computers being thrown away everyday, and people think >> in creating such a beast? >> >> ? C'mon, there are tons of good computers filling landfils, just donate it! >> :P > > I agree. ?I was thinking the same thing about old cell phones. ?The > ones people are throwing away are vastly more powerful than old 8-bit > machines. It's true, they are, and I do donate. 8 screens to ComputerAid last month, and 4 whole PCs to a small charity in Vauxhall in South London, all destined for sub-Saharan Africa. But there's a difference between charity & a product to be sold. Also, there's a limit to what someone who lives in a shanty-town can afford and use. These people may have no mains electricity, no furniture etc. A keyboard that runs off a couple of Watts, that can be plugged into a car battery and use the communal TV, is a bit different from a multi-hundred-Watt business PC with a system unit, screen, keyboard, mouse, etc. - and which needs a fair bit of expertise to use, as opposed to a dead-simple solid-state device with no disk drives. There already are charities trying to persuade companies to donate old PCs to equip schools. What we geeks need to do is persuade people that the Right Thing To Do is to wipe the hard disk with DBAN or something like that, not remove it and destroy it. I know a number of large organizations that will NOT donate old kit - it's all destroyed. We need to change that. But also, even the poor have pride. Many people hate taking charity "gifts". They'd rather /buy/ something with their own money to better their kids' prospects. That's basic human nature & not to be ignored. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 5 11:56:58 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 17:56:58 +0100 Subject: A fun thought-experiment In-Reply-To: <20100505043451.GA18042@brevard.conman.org> References: <20100505043451.GA18042@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 5:34 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: >> >> But if one were to try to design an actual computer that cheap, >> something programmable that could maybe even do email and telnet and >> really simple TCP/IP-type stuff ?like that, what would you put in the >> box? >> >> I am taking it as more or less a given that it would have to be a VERY >> simple 1980s-style 8-bit machine. The easiest way might be to clone >> one of the 80s home computers, implement it on a chip with some extra >> software, like Jeri Ellsworth's fantastic Commodore 64 Direct-TV >> device. >> >> But which 8-bit? > > ?I would prefer the 6809 (which means, Color Computer). ?The chip is a > dream to program for, and with OS-9 (or a derivative) it would almost be > like Unix on a chip (not quite, but close enough). ?Give it the graphics of > the Commodore and you might have a winner on your hands. And the UK-made (Welsh, in fact) Dragon 32 and Dragon 64. There was sod-all software for them, though, then or now... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 5 11:57:53 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 17:57:53 +0100 Subject: A fun thought-experiment In-Reply-To: <4BE0E517.40709@atarimuseum.com> References: <4BE0E517.40709@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I guess if you continue talking about adapting classic computers into a new > role - this is relevant to the list. ? Otherwise it may be way off-topic. Surely it's just a special case of emulation, which is pretty on-topic & is regularly discussed... no? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 5 12:05:20 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 13:05:20 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE16CA5.4020103@oldskool.org> References: <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org> <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> <4BE16CA5.4020103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <86311B01-6BF7-42C1-AE3C-AA9AD98898EC@neurotica.com> On May 5, 2010, at 9:03 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: >>>> I haven't had TV reception capability at home since about 1995. I >>>> download those very few shows (mostly geeky stuff like Star Trek >>>> and >>>> Stargate) that I want to watch. I'll be damned if I'm going to >>>> PAY for >>>> someone to run an advertising pipe into my house. >>> >>> Just curious if you PAY for the shows you download. >> >> You're kidding, right? > > Not really. I felt it hypocritical to complain about advertising > if you're grabbing shows without paying for them. Well of course I would never do that. But if I did, it's not hypocritical at all. I like Battlestar Galactica. I don't like commercials telling me what to buy. I watch what I like, and don't watch what I don't like. That's really all there is to it. > My main sources of streaming entertainment are netflix and hulu, > and I don't mind the advertising on hulu because it's usually of > the "2 minutes at the beginning and then here's you're entire show" > variety, or 30 seconds at each break instead of 3 minutes at each > break, which I feel is acceptable for the convenience of watching > whatever I want whenever I want. That's not bad at all, at least when compared to standard TV nowadays. It's a constant stream of advertising lightly peppered with a little bit of program material, the vast majority of which is drek. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 5 12:14:00 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 10:14:00 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> References: , <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org>, <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE144E8.17042.3B9173@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 May 2010 at 21:28, Dave McGuire wrote: > You're kidding, right? No, I just think that Jim's old enough to have a bit of historical perspective. First there was broadcast radio, free for the price of listening to commerical content and the price of a receiver. Some really great content--music, drama, news you could get nowhere else. Nothing at all like today's broadcast radio. One of the reasons that I don't collect old receivers is that getting them to work would only remind me how far radio has fallen. Then came broadcast TV. I'm old enough to remember my family's first TV set--a 9" Philco. I recall that VHF channel 9 in Chicago before it became PBS was the flagship Zenith station that tinkered a bit with pay-TV (used your telephone), which flopped badly. In the early 70s, I moved to an apartment that offered free cable TV. I liked it--no commercial content, just programming. That, sadly, did not last long--the odious commercial content soon intruded and when the complex decided to charge for cable, I decided that I could do without pay for commericals. Broadcast TV still held quite a bit of interest and I didn't mind. Now, broadcast TV is pretty much garbage (most programs are cops, doctors or reality/game/talk shows). We own a TV, but it's not a large-screen model, nor is it in the living room, nor is it remotely new. When we're out, we leave it to entertain the dogs. Cable isn't in my area, so the possibility of getting cable TV content as a side benefit of internet access isn't there. No way I'm going to pay for a dish so I can watch commercials. Before you say DVR or Tivo, I submit that if those were used universally among cable subscribers, cable advertising would have no economic return. I suspect that as program-delay devices become more prevalent, the advertisers will devise a way around them--how about continuous ads split-screen with your favorite programs? I wouldn't put it past them. - Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 5 12:16:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 13:16:57 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> On May 5, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I haven't had TV reception capability at home since about 1995. >> I download those very few shows (mostly geeky stuff like Star Trek >> and Stargate) that I want to watch. I'll be damned if I'm going >> to PAY for someone to run an advertising pipe into my house. > > Technically, my Bravia can receive DVB-T-encoded TV signals (and > analog PAL signals for that matter). I have no idea if it works, > because I've only used it to watch live TV once or twice. The PVR > gets used A LOT more, mainly because I can fast-forward through the > adverts. MythTV Commercial Skipping (aka Comskip) rocks. > > If there's a TV show I want to watch, I generally wait for the DVD > box-set and buy it. Which is why I have a wall covered in Stargate > SG-1 and Atlantis DVDs. Oh, and Continuum, Ark of Truth and the > Director's Cut of the original Stargate movie. And both > Transformers movies on BluRay (the second one signed by Michael > Bay). And the Firefly boxset (and the Serenity movie). Then there's > the small matter of the Big Bang Theory boxsets by the TV > downstairs... > > On the shopping list -- Eureka, the last season of SGA, first > season of Stargate Universe, the next season of Big Bang Theory > (think that'd be S03, the one that just finished airing on Channel > 4), Sanctuary... > > Geeky enough for you? That's pretty geeky. It mostly mirrors my own stuff, though I've not (yet) gotten into Big Bang Theory, and I never quite got Firefly. And add everything Star Trek and BSG related, of course. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 5 13:08:16 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 14:08:16 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org><4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> <4BE16CA5.4020103@oldskool.org> <86311B01-6BF7-42C1-AE3C-AA9AD98898EC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <56913F6F4E414FD284211A42D3057479@dell8300> > That's not bad at all, at least when compared to standard TV > nowadays. It's a constant stream of advertising lightly peppered with a > little bit of program material, the vast majority of which is drek. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Broadcast TV has always had crap from day one, and had commercials as far back as I can remember. Even with all the crud there are a few shows worth watching, more if you are into sports. I am not into sports but it is fun watching a football game once in a while on a 32" HDTV at 1080i in my room. With the large directional rooftop antenna (got it a few years back mostly to get radio channels I like) I get more channels (perfect reception) now then before the digital switch (one of which is a local FOX channel). Still I don't watch TV like I used to, and most of it is on satellite (HBO and Comedy Central). I remember being the first kid on the block to get cable and the movie channel back in 1977, I guess network TV was not that great even back then so we paid extra for cable. From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 5 13:40:04 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 11:40:04 -0700 Subject: Broadcast television (was RE: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BE144E8.17042.3B9173@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org>, <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> <4BE144E8.17042.3B9173@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 10:14 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > [snip] > Now, broadcast TV is pretty much garbage (most programs are cops, > doctors or reality/game/talk shows). We own a TV, but it's not a > large-screen model, nor is it in the living room, nor is it remotely > new. When we're out, we leave it to entertain the dogs. > I have a large-screen TV because I like movies, but I rarely get to see them in the theatre. Netflix is my friend. :-) I rarely watch any broadcast TV except for baseball. What I find amusing is that my wife records (on Tivo) a 'daytime drama' (soap opera) and watches it on the large-screen. These shows have the lowest production quality of anything ever aired, and the large format amplifies that most unflatteringly. -- Ian From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed May 5 14:25:35 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:25:35 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > That's pretty geeky. It mostly mirrors my own stuff, My mother used to work with someone who had the entire run of every series of Star Trek. On VHS. That really WAS a wall full of tapes. I seem to recall she had signed posters of some of the TNG characters... > though I've not (yet) gotten into Big Bang Theory, I got into it because of someone at work... "You do realise that's not going to work..." "Alright, Sheldon." "Huh? Why did you just call me Sheldon?" "Oh, you don't watch Big Bang Theory? First episode was on Channel 4 last night, it's repeated tonight. Watch it, you'll love it!" And I did... :) Stargate went along similar lines -- a friend let me borrow the first season of SG1, then I bought the entire series on DVD. Atlantis I downloaded off of EZTV, then bought the box-sets again. > and I never quite got Firefly. And Unfortunately once you really get into Firefly, the series ends :-/ I've got a few of the comic books as well ("Those Left Behind") but it'd still be nice to have a second season. Though we all know FOX won't let that happen, because it could be taken as an admission that they were stupid to cancel it (which they were)... :) > add everything Star Trek and BSG related, of course. I've been renting Deep Space Nine from Lovefilm. That's fun to watch on occasion... Can't say I'm much of a Trekkie, though. I don't have any of it on DVD and I most certainly don't go to any of the conventions... There is a (subtle?) crossover between Big Bang Theory and TNG too, watch out for it. It's Sheldon related and turns up (IIRC) towards the end of the third season :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 5 14:54:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:54:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 4, 10 06:01:45 pm Message-ID: > Those were gimmicks, too, in their day - we used to spend quite a bit > of effort to adapt Atari joysticks to PET User Ports (one is easy, two > joysticks takes a bit of effort because there are five switches and > eight primary bits - mostly folks used diodes, but I think there was I am wondering how you did this... IIRC, there are 5 swithces for the joystick, up, down, left, right, OK, up and down can't be actuated simultaneously, nor can left and right. But combinations such as up-and-right are possible, at least on any decent joystick. And the fire button is independant of the joystick position. That means there are 9 states for the joystick (centre, U, D, L, R, UL, UR, DL, DR -- using the obvious abbreviations). That takes 4 bits to encode. Exactly the same number as if you fed each switch into its own port line. So you would still need 10 port lines... I I had to do it on an 8 bit user port, I think I would use a '157 mux to select between the 2 joysticks (4 bits each, going to 4 bits on the port). And an port line configured as an output to switch between them. And finally 2 more port inputs (a totla of 7 of the 8 user prot lines used) for the fire buttons. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 5 14:57:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:57:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 4, 10 04:52:54 pm Message-ID: > If I was running a drive recovery business=2C every drive that came in > would be opened first in a clean room before powering on. If there > was a failure of one of the disk=2C shipping could have distributed bits > to unaffected surfaces. I can see your point, but I am not sure I would open every drive. After all, could you seal it up again well enough (you are not going to get replacement gaskets...). And there is a risk of doing more damage to the platters/heads. But in cany case, if you are going to open up every drive, then the cost of doing that becomes part of the 'inspection fee'. You wouldn't have an additional 'clean room charge'/ That is my complaint about this outfit. They have arbitrary charges that they may apply, but they won't tell you why they're charging them. Yhey would try that with me once (at most!). > I don't think I could run it any different than that. I'd have to charge > for that as well. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 5 15:02:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:02:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE0C4F3.3010709@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 4, 10 08:08:03 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/4/2010 2:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> They weren't that slow, 27Mhz compared to the PS2's 33Mhz. Polygon-wise, the > > > > Since when has the master clock frequency been a useful measure of > > procesor speed? > > When what you're comparing is orders of magnitude faster. You can argue No, not even then. I've seen RISC CPUs that execute an intruction in one clock cycle (and of course there are superscalar CPUs that do mpre than one instruction in a clock cycle) and CISC CPUs which do essentially the same instruction in perhaps 50 cycles. > that CISC != RISC or that one CPU is totally different than another, but > when I say your 16MHz processor is slower than my 2933MHz processor, > it's a useful measure. You know, I think I could concoct a classic 1GHz Z80. All I do is take this 1GHz clock and divide it by 250, (giving 4MHz), and use that to clock a plain old Z80A. Well, ther'es a 1GHz clock in there, and it is a Z80, and... I sitll stand my my statement that the master clock rate is meaningless. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 5 14:39:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:39:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <4BE01CA0.12131.C9EEF2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 4, 10 01:09:52 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 May 2010 at 20:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I think what would bother me most is the seemingly random pricing > > structure. If they had said 'We will recover the data from your drive > > for $1000, flat rate' then fine. Pay them the money if they get your > > data back. But if they are going to have different charges according > > to what work they do (e.g whether the HDA has to be opened in a clean > > room) they I think they have ot eplain what work they did to justify > > those charges. > > > > Do you know if the NVRAM was replaced (did you mark the old chip, or > > note down the date code, or...)? Does the old drive now work > > correctly? (Not that I would trust it for any important data, but it > > would be interesting to test it)). > > The NVRAM on the Deathstar is JTAG-programmable (in fact, this is one > way to get around the password scheme). I suspect that the recovery > house simply reprogrammed it. Had it been an actual board-level That depends on whter the NVRA was damaged, or simply corrupt, surely? Didn't the OP mention that the NVRAM appeared to have been resoldered. Of course that might just have been elimintating dry joints. [True story, but nothing to do with disk drives. A freind asked me if I could attempt to make one good HP16C out of 2 broken ones. Well, I took them apart. In one, the PCU weas clearly doing something, in the other the bus lines looked totally dead. So I desoldered the CPU chips (there are only 2 chips in these machines, the CPU and the R2D2 (ROM/RAM/Display Driver)) and put the 'good' CPU into the machine that had contained a dead CPU. It then woerked. For a laugh I soldered the 'dead' CPU into the other machine. It worked too. All I can assume is that there were dry joints on the PCB. I resoldered the R2D2's as well, just in case and returend _2_ working machines] > repair, I suspect that the price would have been much higher, if the > basic "we'll look at it" price was $700. Oh, I don;t know. If you know which chip to change, I cna't believe it takes that much work to change it. The inpsection fee might cover repairing simple faults like that -- as we all know very often you can't find some faults until others are repaired. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 5 15:09:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 21:09:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: A fun thought-experiment In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at May 5, 10 04:05:28 am Message-ID: > > Everyone knows the "$100 laptop", the OLPC XO-1 machine that spawned > the Intel Classmate which in turn spawned the whole "netbook" market. > > I will warrant that fewer know of the Indian $12 PC, based on a clone > of an old Nintendo: > http://www.techtree.com/India/News/12_PC_Based_on_a_Game_Console/551-91911-= > 581.html > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9111759/_12_Indian_TV_computer_a_kno= > ckoff_of_80s_Nintendo_system_not_Apple_II > > The $12 PC is horribly compromised, but it's a good idea at heart: a > computer so cheap it's affordable for the urban poor. > > But if one were to try to design an actual computer that cheap, > something programmable that could maybe even do email and telnet and > really simple TCP/IP-type stuff like that, what would you put in the > box? > > I am taking it as more or less a given that it would have to be a VERY > simple 1980s-style 8-bit machine. The easiest way might be to clone > one of the 80s home computers, implement it on a chip with some extra > software, like Jeri Ellsworth's fantastic Commodore 64 Direct-TV > device. > > But which 8-bit? Is this a subtle way of restarting the 'My C64 beats your speccy' war? If so, it's not going to work :-) > > If you had to fit an entire computer, with storage and software, into > an FPGA or some similar device and install it in a keyboard, with a > couple of USB ports for storage and connection to a cellphone for > communications... > > Which would be the best, most versatile, capable 1980s 8-bit machine to use= > ? > > An Apple II with loads of options in virtual "slots"? > A Commodore 64, for the graphics, sound and huge games library? > A Spectrum, for its simplicity but large range of programming > languages and so on? > A BBC Micro, with the best BASIC ever and sideways ROM support for > additional features? One good thing about the BBC micro (at least for me) was the large number of built-in interfacs, particularly the user port and ADC. You are not going to be able to duplcate that for $12 (not even the connectors!, and IMHO you would have to buffer them to protect the FPGA or whatever against user error. It was one thign to blow up a 5 quid VIA in a machine costing \pounds 400. It would be quiie enoguh to blow up a $10 FPGA in a machien costing $12...) > An MSX2 machine, some of the latest and best-equipped 8-bitters? I guess my vote would got to a clone of the TRS-80 CoCo3 running OS-9 and BASIC-09. That software is rommable, which makes life a little easier. It's alos a very nice verion of BASIC (better than BBC BASIC in some repsects). If the cost was less of an issue, so I could have buffered user port, ADC, etc, then by dream 8-bitter would be much of the BCC micro hardware with a 68B09 rather than a 6502 CPU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 5 14:45:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:45:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at May 4, 10 04:55:35 pm Message-ID: > > On May 4, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I watch very little television. In a world full of books and > > manuals to > > read, computers, cameras, clocks, etc to repair, electronic aad > > mechancial things to make, firmware to write, and so on, I find > > very little > > time to watch the garbage put out by the television companies > > BRAVO! > > I haven't had TV reception capability at home since about 1995. I When I was living away form home (university, or job), I didn't haev a TV set (or any other form of telvision reaceiver/display device). Nor did I miss it. > download those very few shows (mostly geeky stuff like Star Trek and > Stargate) that I want to watch. I'll be damned if I'm going to PAY Needless to say I don't even do that. I really have got better things to spend my time doing. And to be quite honest I find very little modern TV to be entertaining. The most intereting things to do with TV and video recording equipment involve removing the casing ;-) -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed May 5 15:33:34 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 21:33:34 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE144E8.17042.3B9173@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org>, <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> <4BE144E8.17042.3B9173@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BE1D61E.8040309@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Cable isn't in my area, so the possibility of getting cable TV > content as a side benefit of internet access isn't there. No way I'm > going to pay for a dish so I can watch commercials. There is one and only one reason the Sky Minidish is still sitting on the side of the house (though it's hooked up to a PC-based MythTV PVR, not a Sky Digibox): BBC HD. Every other channel on ASTRA2 and EUROBIRD (the 28 East Constellation) is either rolling adverts, home shopping, or religion. We've got such gems as "Npower Radio" (a radio station run by an electricity company!), "The Unexplained Channel", "GOD Channel" and "Casino TV". Oh, and there's "JMLDIRECT TV" (run by a company that makes a living by importing useless Chinese-made tat and selling it for four or more times what it cost to make). The full gory details are on Lyngsat: http://www.lyngsat.com/28east.html In some ways, I wish we had something like CableCARD over here. I'd rather like to use my PVR to watch either Sky or Virgin Media (and obviously skip over the adverts), but I'll bet they'd never accept it unless the Gubbermint forced them to. And even then I'll bet good ol' Rupert Murdoch ("this is *MY* Skybox!") would sooner shut up shop than sell a CAM module for Sky. Either that or sell one, but charge ?10k for the thing, on a "semi-permanent lease" (i.e.: "we can ask for it back any time we like, and you have to give it back to us for no charge, even though you paid for it in the first place"). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 5 15:41:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 13:41:07 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: <4BE0C4F3.3010709@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 4, 10 08:08:03 pm, Message-ID: <4BE17573.27450.F931D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2010 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote: > I sitll stand my my statement that the master clock rate is > meaningless. Reminds me of one of the comments by the 6809 development team when criticized over the low 1MHz clock. One stated that if they had known that clock rates were that important, they would have brought it out with a waveguide clock input. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Wed May 5 15:41:53 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 16:41:53 -0400 Subject: Broadcast television (was RE: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: , <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org>, <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> <4BE144E8.17042.3B9173@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BE1D811.3020108@verizon.net> Ian King wrote: > What I find amusing is that my wife records (on Tivo) a 'daytime drama' (soap opera) and watches it on the large-screen. These shows have the lowest production quality of anything ever aired My wife records a soap opera during the day, General Hospital, on our HD Tivo. It easily is in the top 10% of the highest quality images that I've ever seen on our TV. The image is incredibly sharp, color vibrant, detail is fantastic. I'm not sure if it's the cameras, the video processing they use, or what, but it looks pretty damn good. I hate to come to the defense of soap operas, but this has been my experience. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 5 15:44:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 13:44:05 -0700 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: <4BE01CA0.12131.C9EEF2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 4, 10 01:09:52 pm, Message-ID: <4BE17625.9937.FBE8E4@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2010 at 20:39, Tony Duell wrote: > That depends on whter the NVRA was damaged, or simply corrupt, surely? > Didn't the OP mention that the NVRAM appeared to have been resoldered. > Of course that might just have been elimintating dry joints. ...or simply popped the existing NVRAM out to reprogram it. Hard to say. But don't most states require that if parts are replaced that they be itemized on the inovice and the original parts be made available to the owner? --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 5 15:45:38 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 16:45:38 -0400 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE1D8F2.60303@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> If I was running a drive recovery business=2C every drive that came in >> would be opened first in a clean room before powering on. If there >> was a failure of one of the disk=2C shipping could have distributed bits >> to unaffected surfaces. > > I can see your point, but I am not sure I would open every drive. After > all, could you seal it up again well enough (you are not going to get > replacement gaskets...). And there is a risk of doing more damage to the > platters/heads. With a modicum of care, it shouldn't be a problem, especially considering that once you've recovered any data you'll be able to recover, the drive itself is going to go for scrap anyway. You're not actually repairing it for further use. Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 5 15:47:43 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 13:47:43 -0700 Subject: Broadcast television (was RE: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BE1D811.3020108@verizon.net> References: , <4BE0C589.10509@oldskool.org>, <4BE0C9AE.40703@neurotica.com> <4BE144E8.17042.3B9173@cclist.sydex.com> <4BE1D811.3020108@verizon.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keith M > Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 1:42 PM > To: General at olddell.com; Discussion@ > Subject: Re: Broadcast television (was RE: An option - Re: the > beginning of the end for floppies) > > Ian King wrote: > > > What I find amusing is that my wife records (on Tivo) a 'daytime > drama' (soap opera) and watches it on the large-screen. These shows > have the lowest production quality of anything ever aired > > My wife records a soap opera during the day, General Hospital, on our > HD > Tivo. It easily is in the top 10% of the highest quality images that > I've ever seen on our TV. The image is incredibly sharp, color > vibrant, > detail is fantastic. I'm not sure if it's the cameras, the video > processing they use, or what, but it looks pretty damn good. > > I hate to come to the defense of soap operas, but this has been my > experience. > > Keith > Maybe there IS a difference. The one my wife watches - which I call "Day of Our Lives", since the plot line seems quite simplistic and repetitive - looks and sounds terrible. And I don't just mean the stories. Man are we OT -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 5 15:51:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 13:51:41 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE1D61E.8040309@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4BE144E8.17042.3B9173@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BE1D61E.8040309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BE177ED.5539.102E018@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2010 at 21:33, Philip Pemberton wrote: > There is one and only one reason the Sky Minidish is still sitting on > the side of the house (though it's hooked up to a PC-based MythTV PVR, > not a Sky Digibox): > BBC HD. Heh, I don't listen to local/domestic broadcast radio either. Most of the day, BBC World Service is on; at night I like to put BBC 7 on to put me to sleep. Did you know that NBC (one of major local TV networks) claims a grand total of two foreign correspondents on the payroll? I learned that from the BBC, too. I still don't understand cricket scores. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed May 5 16:05:43 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 17:05:43 -0400 Subject: A fun thought-experiment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE1DDA7.3030104@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Everyone knows the "$100 laptop", the OLPC XO-1 machine that spawned >> the Intel Classmate which in turn spawned the whole "netbook" market. >> >> I will warrant that fewer know of the Indian $12 PC, based on a clone >> of an old Nintendo: >> http://www.techtree.com/India/News/12_PC_Based_on_a_Game_Console/551-91911-= >> 581.html >> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9111759/_12_Indian_TV_computer_a_kno= >> ckoff_of_80s_Nintendo_system_not_Apple_II >> >> The $12 PC is horribly compromised, but it's a good idea at heart: a >> computer so cheap it's affordable for the urban poor. >> >> But if one were to try to design an actual computer that cheap, >> something programmable that could maybe even do email and telnet and >> really simple TCP/IP-type stuff like that, what would you put in the >> box? >> >> I am taking it as more or less a given that it would have to be a VERY >> simple 1980s-style 8-bit machine. The easiest way might be to clone >> one of the 80s home computers, implement it on a chip with some extra >> software, like Jeri Ellsworth's fantastic Commodore 64 Direct-TV >> device. >> >> But which 8-bit? >> > > Is this a subtle way of restarting the 'My C64 beats your speccy' war? If > so, it's not going to work :-) > > >> If you had to fit an entire computer, with storage and software, into >> an FPGA or some similar device and install it in a keyboard, with a >> couple of USB ports for storage and connection to a cellphone for >> communications... >> >> Which would be the best, most versatile, capable 1980s 8-bit machine to use= >> ? >> >> An Apple II with loads of options in virtual "slots"? >> A Commodore 64, for the graphics, sound and huge games library? >> A Spectrum, for its simplicity but large range of programming >> languages and so on? >> A BBC Micro, with the best BASIC ever and sideways ROM support for >> additional features? >> > > One good thing about the BBC micro (at least for me) was the large number > of built-in interfacs, particularly the user port and ADC. You are not > going to be able to duplcate that for $12 (not even the connectors!, and > IMHO you would have to buffer them to protect the FPGA or whatever > against user error. It was one thign to blow up a 5 quid VIA in a machine > costing \pounds 400. It would be quiie enoguh to blow up a $10 FPGA in a > machien costing $12...) > > >> An MSX2 machine, some of the latest and best-equipped 8-bitters? >> > > I guess my vote would got to a clone of the TRS-80 CoCo3 running OS-9 and > BASIC-09. That software is rommable, which makes life a little easier. > It's alos a very nice verion of BASIC (better than BBC BASIC in some > repsects). > > If the cost was less of an issue, so I could have buffered user port, > ADC, etc, then by dream 8-bitter would be much of the BCC micro hardware > with a 68B09 rather than a 6502 CPU. > > -tony > > > I'd use one of the dirt cheap ARM based cpus with Linux. The hardware cost for an old cpu is same as newer. However if salvaging old hardware then the game changes to what is available. WRT54GL routers are simple, hackable and run linux and have the needed wifi and wire ports. Many of the newer game consoles are expensive but one or two generations back are scrap and have mreo resources than many 8bitters. Generally it's cost and availability with the latter driving it more based on a friend over in Mozambique. Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 5 16:10:51 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 17:10:51 -0400 Subject: A fun thought-experiment References: <4BE1DDA7.3030104@verizon.net> Message-ID: <148B39608AF84646973854B23954C2AB@dell8300> > Generally it's cost and availability with the latter driving it more > based on a friend over in Mozambique. > > Allison And support (spare parts and people who know what goes where) once they are in use. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 5 14:28:12 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:28:12 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof References: Message-ID: <011501caec99$4b531d10$b7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 8:06 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof > > They weren't that slow, 27Mhz compared to the PS2's 33Mhz. Polygon-wise, the > > Since when has the master clock frequency been a useful measure of > procesor speed? > > -tony > For those of us that don't know any better (I'm a little wiser now, having worked with the Motorola 68000 CPU) . It's a bit like the days when games consoles had 16-bit, 32-bit etc. stamped on their beautiful plastic case. It made them seem more powerful, and no doubt helped to start lots of arguments between rival console owners. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 5 14:42:27 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:42:27 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningofthe end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <011601caec99$4ccc76a0$b7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 10:16 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningofthe end for floppies) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 4:59 PM > Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: > thebeginningof the end for floppies) > > > > On May 4, 2010, at 2:48 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> Yeah, but the Wii is essentially a fad. > > > > What video game isn't? > > > > There is a difference between classic games like say pacman that people > still like to play today, and gimmicks like motion controls (Wii controller) > that get old after a period of time. > > If people still use the Wii in 10 years it will be because of the games > being fun, not because of the controller. I still fire up my Playstation 1 > even with the dated graphics because the games are fun, same with my C64. > How many people bother with the 3DO these days after the CDROM gimmick got > old? > Exactly. I still regularly play games on my SNES, Megadrive and Nintendo 64 (among others), usually every year or so. Of course, there comes a point when you have too many games, so you can't play them all regularly. I usually just play the games that are fun, or I have the fondest memories of. I always end up going back to classics like Cannon Fodder, Lemmings and Tetris. Some games never get old :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 5 16:11:00 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 22:11:00 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <011a01caec99$52d877b0$b7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > Dave McGuire wrote: > > I haven't had TV reception capability at home since about 1995. I > > download those very few shows (mostly geeky stuff like Star Trek and > > Stargate) that I want to watch. I'll be damned if I'm going to PAY for > > someone to run an advertising pipe into my house. > > Technically, my Bravia can receive DVB-T-encoded TV signals (and analog > PAL signals for that matter). I have no idea if it works, because I've > only used it to watch live TV once or twice. The PVR gets used A LOT > more, mainly because I can fast-forward through the adverts. MythTV > Commercial Skipping (aka Comskip) rocks. > > If there's a TV show I want to watch, I generally wait for the DVD > box-set and buy it. Which is why I have a wall covered in Stargate SG-1 > and Atlantis DVDs. Oh, and Continuum, Ark of Truth and the Director's > Cut of the original Stargate movie. And both Transformers movies on > BluRay (the second one signed by Michael Bay). And the Firefly boxset > (and the Serenity movie). Then there's the small matter of the Big Bang > Theory boxsets by the TV downstairs... > > On the shopping list -- Eureka, the last season of SGA, first season of > Stargate Universe, the next season of Big Bang Theory (think that'd be > S03, the one that just finished airing on Channel 4), Sanctuary... > > Geeky enough for you? > No. Wheres BSG (Battlestar Galactica - either the original 70's/80's one, or the 00's one)? (I love both, BTW, though the recent one get's religousy in the last couple of seasons) I wonder what CPU those new Cylon models are using?!! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 5 14:50:28 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 20:50:28 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningofthe end for floppies) References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com><0bc801cae999$63b5fe20$13a160bd@portajara><008101caea42$20810d30$d7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><201005031112.46710.pat@computer-refuge.org><010801caebcb$16c5ca30$fa435f0a@user8459cef6fa> <0B68BDD8-77DB-4FA1-8F07-149F3752D6D3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <011701caec99$4eaf6770$b7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 10:34 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningofthe end for floppies) > On May 4, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I still fire up my Playstation 1 even with the dated graphics > > because the games are fun, same with my C64. How many people bother > > with the 3DO these days after the CDROM gimmick got old? > > WTF is a 3DO? > Not sure why that called it 3DO, but it was a CD-based games console released around 1993. Originally produced by Panasonic, it ended up being produced by Goldstar (or vice versa). A mate of my brothers brought it round to our house in 1994, and showed us a few games. I recall a first-person shooter style Hounted House style game, with ghosts and other creatures as the bad guys, and some helicopter flying game. It was also the first time I saw full-motion-video in action. I was blown away by it. Mind you, only a year earlier we had made the jump from Spectrum to Megadrive. (OMG, look at all those colours!!) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 5 16:47:34 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 16:47:34 -0500 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <4BE17625.9937.FBE8E4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BE01CA0.12131.C9EEF2@cclist.sydex.com> <4BE17625.9937.FBE8E4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201005052155.o45LtVJs080741@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:44 PM 5/5/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >...or simply popped the existing NVRAM out to reprogram it. Hard to >say. But don't most states require that if parts are replaced that >they be itemized on the inovice and the original parts be made >available to the owner? Pulling and properly reprogramming an NVRAM on a Deskstar is an esoteric skill. Whether it's an $800 skill is another matter. They put a security sticker over a spot on the original label, at the location of some sort of head screw. They didn't scar the label much to access it. Because the sticker was there, said the tech, they must've opened it. I could haggle as to whether they'd cleaned the dust off the seals sufficiently to enter the clean room. - John From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 5 18:25:31 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 19:25:31 -0400 Subject: Drive recovery References: <4BE01CA0.12131.C9EEF2@cclist.sydex.com> <4BE17625.9937.FBE8E4@cclist.sydex.com> <201005052155.o45LtVJs080741@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <0AAF16427AAC49398B93F535E5D9CD57@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:47 PM Subject: Re: Drive recovery > At 03:44 PM 5/5/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>...or simply popped the existing NVRAM out to reprogram it. Hard to >>say. But don't most states require that if parts are replaced that >>they be itemized on the inovice and the original parts be made >>available to the owner? > > Pulling and properly reprogramming an NVRAM on a Deskstar is > an esoteric skill. Whether it's an $800 skill is another matter. > > They put a security sticker over a spot on the original label, > at the location of some sort of head screw. They didn't scar the > label much to access it. Because the sticker was there, said > the tech, they must've opened it. > > I could haggle as to whether they'd cleaned the dust off the seals > sufficiently to enter the clean room. > > - John > I don't see the point of this. There are few people who can get the data of a dead drive, their knowledge is a black art. If your data is worth $1000 to recover they pay it and don't bother reverse engineering what was done. Seems to me that kind of job is billed at whatever they want at the time and not at a cost per procedure level. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 5 20:30:34 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:30:34 -0700 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net > > Message: 3 > > Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 16:52:54 -0700 > > From: dwight elvey > > Subject: RE: Drive recovery > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > ---snip--- > > > > Hi > > If I was running a drive recovery business, every drive that came in > > would be opened first in a clean room before powering on. If there > > was a failure of one of the disk, shipping could have distributed bits > > to unaffected surfaces. > > I don't think I could run it any different than that. I'd have to charge > > for that as well. > > Dwight > > > Since most drive failures are not head disk interferences much less a crash, > the proposed process would unnecessarily both add cost and increase the risk > of head disk interference without, IMO, significantly changing the data > recovery probability. > Hi If I was paying $1000 I'd want my drive opened before powering on again. As you have said the chance is small but it is not zero. If they were to tell me: " We're sorry, when we powered it up all of the surfaces were damages because bits of grit got under that heads when they loaded.", I'd conside legal processes. My first thoughts on receiving such a disk is to open it up to not only ensure that the surfaces were clean but that the head loading and bearings were all in order. That the disk spun up properly and such. I would consider any recovery business that did less to be negligent. I surely wouldn't send my valued data to you. dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 5 20:54:14 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 20:54:14 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE22146.7070705@oldskool.org> On 5/5/2010 3:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > I still stand my my statement that the master clock rate is meaningless. Laws of physics disagree with you for sufficiently high orders of magnitude. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 5 21:37:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 22:37:55 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE22146.7070705@oldskool.org> References: <4BE22146.7070705@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE22B83.4010003@neurotica.com> On 5/5/10 9:54 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/5/2010 3:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >> I still stand my my statement that the master clock rate is meaningless. > > Laws of physics disagree with you for sufficiently high orders of > magnitude. I doubt we'll ever hit those orders of magnitude. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Wed May 5 23:27:39 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 00:27:39 -0400 Subject: Quick question -- Sharp PC-1211 Message-ID: <4BE2453B.9040300@snarc.net> Hi all -- quick question for anybody who has a Sharp PC-1211 -- is there a patent number on the back, and if so, what is it? From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 5 23:27:18 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 23:27:18 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE22B83.4010003@neurotica.com> References: <4BE22146.7070705@oldskool.org> <4BE22B83.4010003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE24526.40206@oldskool.org> On 5/5/2010 9:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/5/10 9:54 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> On 5/5/2010 3:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> >>> I still stand my my statement that the master clock rate is meaningless. >> >> Laws of physics disagree with you for sufficiently high orders of >> magnitude. > > I doubt we'll ever hit those orders of magnitude. We already have. I compared a 16MHz processor to a 2933MHz processor. Master clock rate is impossible to ignore. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed May 5 23:29:48 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 21:29:48 -0700 Subject: MCA Sound Card? Message-ID: <4BE245BC.1090407@mail.msu.edu> I've got a PS/2 Model 80 (totally tricked out with a 40Mhz Cyrix 386->486 upgrade and 48mb ram) that I have a hankering to do some old DOS gaming on. Don't ask me why I want to do this on a PS/2, it makes no sense -- I just do. I lack any sort of sound device, however, and they seem to be hard to find these days... Anyone have an MCA sound card (something that is SoundBlaster compatible would be very useful...) they'd be willing to sell or trade? I've got a lovely M-Motion Video Adapter/A (capture video on your PS/2!) to get rid of :). Thanks as always, Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed May 5 23:33:00 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 21:33:00 -0700 Subject: Quick question -- Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <4BE2453B.9040300@snarc.net> References: <4BE2453B.9040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4BE2467C.6040303@mail.msu.edu> Yes: 3902169 and 3976994. Josh Evan Koblentz wrote: > Hi all -- quick question for anybody who has a Sharp PC-1211 -- is > there a patent number on the back, and if so, what is it? > > From evan at snarc.net Wed May 5 23:42:33 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 00:42:33 -0400 Subject: Quick question -- Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <4BE2467C.6040303@mail.msu.edu> References: <4BE2453B.9040300@snarc.net> <4BE2467C.6040303@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4BE248B9.3040407@snarc.net> Thanks! --------------------------------------------- > Yes: 3902169 and 3976994. > > Josh > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Hi all -- quick question for anybody who has a Sharp PC-1211 -- is >> there a patent number on the back, and if so, what is it? >> >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 5 23:46:14 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 21:46:14 -0700 Subject: Servant .953 Message-ID: <4BE24996.1080303@bitsavers.org> I am interviewing Andy Hertzfeld tomorrow, and had hoped to talk about Servant, but I can't find a copy of it around anywhere tonight. Does anyone have a copy they can send me? This was the finder replacement he did just before Multifinder came out. I think .953 was the last version. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 6 00:02:52 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 00:02:52 -0500 Subject: MCA Sound Card? In-Reply-To: <4BE245BC.1090407@mail.msu.edu> References: <4BE245BC.1090407@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4BE24D7C.10207@oldskool.org> On 5/5/2010 11:29 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I've got a PS/2 Model 80 (totally tricked out with a 40Mhz Cyrix > 386->486 upgrade and 48mb ram) that I have a hankering to do some old > DOS gaming on. Don't ask me why I want to do this on a PS/2, it makes no > sense -- I just do. I lack any sort of sound device, however, and they > seem to be hard to find these days... > > Anyone have an MCA sound card (something that is SoundBlaster compatible > would be very useful...) they'd be willing to sell or trade? I've got a > lovely M-Motion Video Adapter/A (capture video on your PS/2!) to get rid > of :). I have an MCA Pro Audio Spectrum, but my experience with it and an MCA Sound Blaster were disappointing (ie. compatibility was extremely low despite one of them being the actual Sound Blaster MCA). My advice for oldskool gaming is to set up anything OTHER than a microchannel machine. My PS/2 Model 30-286 is great for this. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From thorh at ismennt.is Thu May 6 00:52:25 2010 From: thorh at ismennt.is (Thorhallur Ragnarsson) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 05:52:25 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Quick question -- Sharp PC-1211 In-Reply-To: <4BE2453B.9040300@snarc.net> References: <4BE2453B.9040300@snarc.net> Message-ID: <57184.82.221.28.59.1273125145.squirrel@www.netpostur.is> > Hi all -- quick question for anybody who has a Sharp PC-1211 -- is there > a patent number on the back, and if so, what is it? > The one I got has two numbers. U.S.Pats. 3902169 & 3976994 Best regards. Thor. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu May 6 00:59:04 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 01:59:04 -0400 Subject: MCA Sound Card? References: <4BE245BC.1090407@mail.msu.edu> <4BE24D7C.10207@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <13AC2713FE3747D9A9BF89CF9A2E8186@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 1:02 AM Subject: Re: MCA Sound Card? > I have an MCA Pro Audio Spectrum, but my experience with it and an MCA > Sound Blaster were disappointing (ie. compatibility was extremely low > despite one of them being the actual Sound Blaster MCA). > > My advice for oldskool gaming is to set up anything OTHER than a > microchannel machine. My PS/2 Model 30-286 is great for this. > -- Interesting, I was under the impression that a real soundblaster (even an MCA one) would work fine for gaming. Is there an issue with the CPU used or something? Why do people blow big bucks to have a soundcard they cannot use well? From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 6 01:07:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 May 2010 23:07:30 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE24526.40206@oldskool.org> References: , <4BE22B83.4010003@neurotica.com>, <4BE24526.40206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE1FA32.6673.2FFBAF0@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2010 at 23:27, Jim Leonard wrote: > We already have. I compared a 16MHz processor to a 2933MHz processor. > Master clock rate is impossible to ignore. -- Jim Leonard If you want to split hairs, we could talk about "external" CPU clock and get into a real mess, as Intel Pentium/Celerons...etc. have on- chip PLLs that multiply the external clock. But at some point, we'll be paying more attention to the "number" of CPUs on the chip and less to the clock that they run on. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 6 01:13:43 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 00:13:43 -0600 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE1FA32.6673.2FFBAF0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BE22B83.4010003@neurotica.com>, <4BE24526.40206@oldskool.org> <4BE1FA32.6673.2FFBAF0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BE25E17.2090807@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 May 2010 at 23:27, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> We already have. I compared a 16MHz processor to a 2933MHz processor. >> Master clock rate is impossible to ignore. -- Jim Leonard > > If you want to split hairs, we could talk about "external" CPU clock > and get into a real mess, as Intel Pentium/Celerons...etc. have on- > chip PLLs that multiply the external clock. > > But at some point, we'll be paying more attention to the "number" of > CPUs on the chip and less to the clock that they run on. I want to know real random access ram speed? > --Chuck > > From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu May 6 01:25:04 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 16:25:04 +1000 Subject: seeking DEC VT100-style keyboard keycaps SETUP and NOSCROLL Message-ID: for a DEC GIGI (VK100) I recently acquired. Many of the keycaps on the GIGI pull off very easily so little surprise it is missing a couple. http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/Bdb1fRKIjtP6Q0CebliU-g?feat=directlink (Aside: on powerup it promptly had conniptions and also needs parts for the PSU - fortunately easy to find at our local electronics store). From arcarlini at iee.org Thu May 6 01:37:02 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 07:37:02 +0100 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <34E63CFE591542F1BB515E724C389520@ANTONIOPC> dwight elvey [dkelvey at hotmail.com] wrote: > If > they were to > > tell me: " We're sorry, when we powered it up all of the surfaces were > > damages because bits of grit got under that heads when they loaded.", > > I'd conside legal processes. They won't tell you that (surprise, surprise). It seems that the process is: (1) you send them drive (2) they say "sorry, no can do" or "that'll be $1000 for your data please" (3) you pay nothing and get your drive back or you pay $1000 and get your data (4) if you paid you get your data (5) you get your original drive back (presumably with a note saying "don't use it") Antonio From brad at heeltoe.com Thu May 6 05:26:45 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 06:26:45 -0400 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: <4BE24996.1080303@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100506_004740_648156_969AE5CE) References: <4BE24996.1080303@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100506_004740_648156_969AE5CE) Message-ID: <4BE29965.4080509@heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > I am interviewing Andy Hertzfeld tomorrow, and had hoped to talk about > Servant, but I can't find a copy of it around anywhere tonight. Does > anyone have a copy they can send me? This was the finder replacement > he did just before Multifinder came out. I think .953 was the last > version. > Wasn't it called "switcher" at that time? -brad From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 6 08:06:59 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The last of our 9-tracks In-Reply-To: <201005040751.37640.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <201005040751.37640.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: I stopped by Penn State's Spring Surplus Auction on the way in this morning, and noticed an IBM 3803 tape controller and a 3420 drive. Both had been sitting out in the rain all night. :-( I believe this is the last of our 9-track equipment. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu May 6 08:17:23 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 15:17:23 +0200 Subject: The last of our 9-tracks In-Reply-To: References: <201005040751.37640.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <20100506131723.GA20017@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, May 06, 2010 at 09:06:59AM -0400, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I stopped by Penn State's Spring Surplus Auction on the way in > this morning, and noticed an IBM 3803 tape controller and a 3420 > drive. Both had been sitting out in the rain all night. :-( I > believe this is the last of our 9-track equipment. Nasty way to treat it. Well if it is going to the dump, maybe you could cut out the control panel and make a conversationpiece of: http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/3803.HTM (I wouldn't mind one) /P From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 6 10:47:29 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 08:47:29 -0700 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: <4BE29965.4080509@heeltoe.com> References: <4BE24996.1080303@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100506_004740_648156_969AE5CE) <4BE29965.4080509@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4BE2E491.90406@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/10 3:26 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: >> I am interviewing Andy Hertzfeld tomorrow, and had hoped to talk about >> Servant, but I can't find a copy of it around anywhere tonight. Does >> anyone have a copy they can send me? This was the finder replacement >> he did just before Multifinder came out. I think .953 was the last >> version. >> > Wasn't it called "switcher" at that time? > No, this was after Switcher, and before Multifinder. I just contacted Andy, and he no longer has a copy. The copy of .951 at Macintosh Garden is corrupted. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu May 6 12:06:27 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 12:06:27 -0500 Subject: MCA Sound Card? In-Reply-To: <13AC2713FE3747D9A9BF89CF9A2E8186@dell8300> References: <4BE245BC.1090407@mail.msu.edu> <4BE24D7C.10207@oldskool.org> <13AC2713FE3747D9A9BF89CF9A2E8186@dell8300> Message-ID: <4BE2F713.10606@oldskool.org> On 5/6/2010 12:59 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Interesting, I was under the impression that a real soundblaster (even > an MCA one) would work fine for gaming. Is there an issue with the CPU > used or something? Why do people blow big bucks to have a soundcard they > cannot use well? Interrupt programming IIRC. I'm not an expert on why/how MCA differed from ISA from a programming perspective. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 6 12:49:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 13:49:04 -0400 Subject: The last of our 9-tracks In-Reply-To: References: <201005040751.37640.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On May 6, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > I stopped by Penn State's Spring Surplus Auction on the way in > this morning, and noticed an IBM 3803 tape controller and a 3420 > drive. Both had been sitting out in the rain all night. :-( I > believe this is the last of our 9-track equipment. Bummer about the rain. Any chance they'd survive that? I don't know how the old IBM stuff was in that regard. I'd love to give a 3420 (with or without a 3803, preferably with) a home. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 12:46:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:46:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE17573.27450.F931D2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 10 01:41:07 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 May 2010 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I sitll stand my my statement that the master clock rate is > > meaningless. > > Reminds me of one of the comments by the 6809 development team when > criticized over the low 1MHz clock. One stated that if they had I always felt that Motorola mis-specified the 6809 clock. They claimed it was a 1MHz machine -- and that was the sped of the 2 bus clocks (E and Q). But those clocks were derived from a 4* clock input -- in other words 4MHz for the maximum speed. Any other company would have called it a 4MHz perocessor. Of course the Motorola way does have the advantage that the 6809E (which (where the clocks are produced externally, you have to feed it a pair of 1MHz signals in pahse quadrature) is the same speed, but marketroids don't think like that :-) > known that clock rates were that important, they would have brought > it out with a waveguide clock input. Similar ot my tongue-in-cheek 1GHz Z80A :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 12:49:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:49:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE177ED.5539.102E018@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 10 01:51:41 pm Message-ID: > I still don't understand cricket scores. Does anybody? (No, I don;t want an explanation. Sports and DrARD do not mix. The only 'cricket' I am interested in is better knwon as an HP-01) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 12:48:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:48:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <4BE17625.9937.FBE8E4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 10 01:44:05 pm Message-ID: > > That depends on whter the NVRA was damaged, or simply corrupt, surely? > > Didn't the OP mention that the NVRAM appeared to have been resoldered. > > Of course that might just have been elimintating dry joints. > > ...or simply popped the existing NVRAM out to reprogram it. Hard to I thought you said it was in-circiut-programmable? In any case, if I was repairing a drive and had oto desolder a chip like this, I would fit a new one. > say. But don't most states require that if parts are replaced that > they be itemized on the inovice and the original parts be made > available to the owner? There are probably also regulations about amking arbitrary charages and not justifying them... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 12:41:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:41:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <011501caec99$4b531d10$b7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 5, 10 08:28:12 pm Message-ID: > For those of us that don't know any better (I'm a little wiser now, having aka 'marketroids' ? > worked with the Motorola 68000 CPU) . It's a bit like the days when games > consoles had 16-bit, 32-bit etc. stamped on their beautiful plastic case. It That;s another meaningless number in a lot of cases. Is the Philips P850 8 bit (width of the ALU and most intenral data paths) or 16 bit (how it appears to the machine code programmer -- an 'add' instruction adds 2 16 bits numbers, and uses the ALU twice, onve for each byte). Is the IBM PC 8 bit (width of the data bus) or 16 bit? I have a machine here that I could justify any of the following numbers of bits for : 1 (Bit serial ALU for binary operations) 3 (Physical width of user program memory) 4 (width of the ALU for BCD operations) 6 (logical width of user program memory) 8 (physical width of user data memory, and I/O bus) 16 (logical witdh of user data memory, also size of most processor registers). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 12:55:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:55:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <201005052155.o45LtVJs080741@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "John Foust" at May 5, 10 04:47:34 pm Message-ID: > They put a security sticker over a spot on the original label, > at the location of some sort of head screw. They didn't scar the > label much to access it. Because the sticker was there, said > the tech, they must've opened it. COme again? Anybody can stick a label over a screw.... One of the oldest tricks in the car reapir trade is cleaning round screwheds to indicate something has been removed (when in fact it hasn't). I really would not trust this outfit... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 12:57:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:57:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <0AAF16427AAC49398B93F535E5D9CD57@dell8300> from "Teo Zenios" at May 5, 10 07:25:31 pm Message-ID: > I don't see the point of this. There are few people who can get the data of > a dead drive, their knowledge is a black art. If your data is worth $1000 to So? THis does not make them necessarily honest. And there are plent of other 'black arts' that people here do every day. I don't beleive that hard disk data recovery is beyond us... > recover they pay it and don't bother reverse engineering what was done. > Seems to me that kind of job is billed at whatever they want at the time and > not at a cost per procedure level. Sure _If there is a flat rate_. If they had said '$1000 to recover the date, no matter what we do' then fine. Pay the $1000 and get your data back. But if they are going to have various charged (depending on whether the HDA has to be opened in a clean room, for exampel) then IMHO they have to justify the chrages they are making. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 13:01:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:01:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 5, 10 06:30:34 pm Message-ID: > If I was paying $1000 I'd want my drive opened before powering on again. > > As you have said the chance is small but it is not zero. If they were to > > tell me: " We're sorry=2C when we powered it up all of the surfaces were > > damages because bits of grit got under that heads when they loaded."=2C > > I'd conside legal processes. But they're not going to say that, are they? They;ll say something like 'Unfortunately we were unable to recover your data' There will be drives where the data in not recoverable (by anybody). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 13:03:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:03:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE22146.7070705@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 5, 10 08:54:14 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/5/2010 3:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > > I still stand my my statement that the master clock rate is meaningless. > > Laws of physics disagree with you for sufficiently high orders of magnitude. Care to explain? I can't think of a single law of physics that prohibits using as many clock cylces as I want for a particular operaiton. In which case, an 8MHz RISC processor which takes 1 cycle for a given operation could be a lot faster than a 1GHz processor what happens to take 256 cycles for the same operation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 13:09:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:09:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: seeking DEC VT100-style keyboard keycaps SETUP and NOSCROLL In-Reply-To: from "Nigel Williams" at May 6, 10 04:25:04 pm Message-ID: > > for a DEC GIGI (VK100) I recently acquired. Many of the keycaps on the GIGI > pull off very easily so little surprise it is missing a couple. With this design of keyboard (used by many manufacturers), sometimes th hollow square plastic key plungers split (often at a corser). This remults in the keycaps falling off easily, it also means the keys tend to stick. One trick I've used in the past is to move the defective plungers onto litle-used keys (in my case the numeric keypad). THe HP85 service manual gives some information on taking these keyboards apart. You cna reuse the plungers, though. I don't suppose anyoen has the tool for insering new contacts, do they? > > http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/Bdb1fRKIjtP6Q0CebliU-g?feat=directlink > > (Aside: on powerup it promptly had conniptions and also needs parts for the > PSU - fortunately easy to find at our local electronics store). What fialed? Isn't this a swticher? If the chopper transistor has failed (and it did in a couple of VT100s here),, you need to check surrounding components (particularly low-value resisotrs) too. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 6 13:18:00 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:18:00 +0100 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BD45BAB.1070009@mac.com> References: <4BD37CAD.3000703@mac.com> <4BD45BAB.1070009@mac.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: > On 04/25/2010 14:36, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> I don't know of a PCW 512+ but Wikipedia tells me there was a 9512+ >> with a 3?" drive instead of a 3" - is this the model you mean? >> >> I find myself strangely tempted, if so... Would Sir be interested in a >> classic Macintosh of some hue, at all? I have a few I wish to get rid >> of. >> >> > > Yep, i missed the 9 on the keyboard. its a 9512+ > > ? ?http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=190 > > from the Old computer bible :-) > > If i took in another Classic Mac, Mrs P would string me up by the > unmentionables. > > however i'm willing to accept an IOU of something intresting if you want one > tho, they are only sitting in a storage unit. > > contact further off list i think > > Roger And indeed thanks to the estimable Mr Pugh, I now have one of these absolutely mind 'Strads in my possession, which makes me jolly happy. :?) Thanks, Roger! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 6 13:21:55 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 14:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The last of our 9-tracks In-Reply-To: References: <201005040751.37640.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 6, 2010, at 9:06 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: >> I stopped by Penn State's Spring Surplus Auction on the way in this >> morning, and noticed an IBM 3803 tape controller and a 3420 drive. Both >> had been sitting out in the rain all night. :-( I believe this is the last >> of our 9-track equipment. > > Bummer about the rain. Any chance they'd survive that? I don't know how > the old IBM stuff was in that regard. I'd love to give a 3420 (with or > without a 3803, preferably with) a home. Unknown about rain damage. The 3420 had a perforated grid top and water definitely got inside. I believe the 3803 had a solid top. I didn't hang around for the auction, and it will probably be over by 3:00 P.M. (EDT). You might try calling the Surplus and Salvage office (814-865-4371) to find out if they were sold. Chances are, they'll go to a scrapper. The web site is: http://www.surplus.psu.edu/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 6 13:25:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 14:25:18 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 6, 2010, at 1:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I still don't understand cricket scores. > > Does anybody? > > (No, I don;t want an explanation. Sports and DrARD do not mix. The > only > 'cricket' I am interested in is better knwon as an HP-01) Hear hear, once again. Chasing a ball around in the grass? No thanks. Watching other people chase a ball around in the grass? Doubly so. You may be my long-lost brother. ;) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 6 12:05:27 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:05:27 +0100 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk><605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 8:25 PM Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > Dave McGuire wrote: > > That's pretty geeky. It mostly mirrors my own stuff, > > My mother used to work with someone who had the entire run of every > series of Star Trek. On VHS. That really WAS a wall full of tapes. > > I seem to recall she had signed posters of some of the TNG characters... > > > though I've not (yet) gotten into Big Bang Theory, > > I got into it because of someone at work... > > "You do realise that's not going to work..." > "Alright, Sheldon." > "Huh? Why did you just call me Sheldon?" > "Oh, you don't watch Big Bang Theory? First episode was on Channel 4 > last night, it's repeated tonight. Watch it, you'll love it!" > > And I did... :) I got into it because I am a big fan of Caley Cuoco (Penny), Chuck Lorre (he created Dharma & Greg) and US sitcoms in general. I do admit that the geeks in the show (although exagerated a little) do make me feel normal, and of course I have learnt a few geeky things from it too (Schroedingers cat for example). > > Stargate went along similar lines -- a friend let me borrow the first > season of SG1, then I bought the entire series on DVD. Atlantis I > downloaded off of EZTV, then bought the box-sets again. > > > and I never quite got Firefly. And > I'm not a fan of Stargate and have yet to see Firefly. > Unfortunately once you really get into Firefly, the series ends :-/ > I've got a few of the comic books as well ("Those Left Behind") but it'd > still be nice to have a second season. Though we all know FOX won't let > that happen, because it could be taken as an admission that they were > stupid to cancel it (which they were)... :) > > > add everything Star Trek and BSG related, of course. > > I've been renting Deep Space Nine from Lovefilm. That's fun to watch on > occasion... Can't say I'm much of a Trekkie, though. I don't have any of > it on DVD and I most certainly don't go to any of the conventions... > I have seen every Star Trek film and TV show. I could never get into DSN and the last ST TV series (can't recall it's name). Voyager is one of my favourites. > There is a (subtle?) crossover between Big Bang Theory and TNG too, > watch out for it. It's Sheldon related and turns up (IIRC) towards the > end of the third season :) > I'll have to check that out sometime. I did catch an old episode of ST:TNG last year (I think), when here in the UK BBC2 had ST on late every Friday night (original ST, then ST: TNG). Anyway, a young Kirsten Dunst plays an alien kid in one episode of ST: TNG. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 6 13:29:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 11:29:59 -0700 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: <4BE17625.9937.FBE8E4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 10 01:44:05 pm, Message-ID: <4BE2A837.8946.7F4CFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2010 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > I thought you said it was in-circiut-programmable? > > In any case, if I was repairing a drive and had oto desolder a chip > like this, I would fit a new one. It is, but then, I don't know the recovery house's procedures. It could also be that one of the more common failures is that the RoHS solder is less than optimal for the job and that reflowing the connections often clears things up. I don't know--I haven't seen enough Deathstars to say. For all we know, the $800 fee was for 5 minutes of work with a soldering iron. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 6 13:31:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 14:31:52 -0400 Subject: The last of our 9-tracks In-Reply-To: References: <201005040751.37640.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <5511DAB8-1945-4074-B15B-8DA30BB03055@neurotica.com> On May 6, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >>> I stopped by Penn State's Spring Surplus Auction on the way in >>> this morning, and noticed an IBM 3803 tape controller and a 3420 >>> drive. Both had been sitting out in the rain all night. :-( I >>> believe this is the last of our 9-track equipment. >> >> Bummer about the rain. Any chance they'd survive that? I don't >> know how the old IBM stuff was in that regard. I'd love to give a >> 3420 (with or without a 3803, preferably with) a home. > > Unknown about rain damage. The 3420 had a perforated grid top > and water definitely got inside. I believe the 3803 had a solid > top. I didn't hang around for the auction, and it will probably be > over by 3:00 P.M. (EDT). You might try calling the Surplus and > Salvage office (814-865-4371) to find out if they were sold. > Chances are, they'll go to a scrapper. The web site is: > > http://www.surplus.psu.edu/ Well, financial restrictions (as far as getting it moved) will prevent me from participating. All I can do this time is be sad about it I guess. :-( -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From fjgjr1 at aol.com Thu May 6 13:36:03 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 14:36:03 -0400 Subject: A perspective on " the beginning of the end for floppies" In-Reply-To: <4BD862DA.16458.1A7E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <8CCB53DD1877FB7-15CC-5BD0@webmail-d063.sysops.aol.com> <4BD862DA.16458.1A7E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8CCBB621DE764D2-1AA8-1B68@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> To All - There was an ?enormous response,? that still continues, on this classic computer email list by Dave Dunfield [WWW.CLASSICCMP.ORG] on the ?demise of the floppy? in the past few weeks. It was even extended to many other areas of technology. I did some posts on some options on that email list and also including WWW.VINTAGE-COMPUTER.COM and others responded there too. The April issue on page #15 of our long just outstanding 30 year old local Lehigh Valley Computer Group [WWW.LVCG.ORG ? past newsletters are even posted there] had a very good article by Bill Pryor, one of their excellent and perceptive members, titled ?Ephermeral [really ?Ephemeral? ? just a typo and corrected in article ? but may need original title spelling for searching] Media? which he originally wrote in ? 2000 ? !!! This present reprint of this 2000 article now notes the following very similar in many ways New York Times article 2010/03/16 ? 10 years later ! Fending Off Digital Decay, Bit by Bit, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/books/16archive.html Lot to think about here ! This all fits nicely into my decades of science, technology and society [STS] research [see my web site WWW.KAYPROSTS.ORG] for some more details. Note, this web site is very simple ? just for ?info transfer? ? nothing fancy. Now that we have faster cable internet service finally in our so rural area of SE PA, it will be substantially improved, updated, upgraded, etc. in the near future. Many of us were trained by the National Science Foundation [NSF] decades ago to help society better understand, manage, etc. such very powerful, dramatic, global STS changes we are now presently experiencing in so many areas of our lives, including our hobby of vintage computers. I heartily encourage you all to do your own STS research ? so much so readily available by just searching the web ? e.g. Google searches, etc. Form your own ?informed? opinions, decisions, actions, etc. Then please continue to contribute to the ?dialogue? ? we are all in this together ! Stay tuned ! It is going to continue to be quite a ride with no end in site ! Frank P.S. Thanks Chuck for the long list post - that is what got me inspired ! -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, Apr 28, 2010 7:31 pm Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies On 28 Apr 2010 at 19:01, fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: I posted a fairly long list of emulators not too long ago. $275 is n the high end--the Chinese version of these (which perhaps is the ame as the one you describe) can be had for about $50. It's not uch--just a uC and some "glue". There are at least two DIY versions on the web. But none of the off-the-shelf versions is going to help with my rother word processor (uses GCR to put 240K on a 3.5") or a real DEC X02 disk (uses DEC's own version of MFM) or an early Lanier word rocessor (uses hard-sectored 8" MMFM recording) or those 5.25" loppies sitting in my drawer that work with Drivetec 2MB and 4MB rives. And no one, that I'm aware of, claims to be able to handle copy- rotection emulation. It's sort of odd, a lot of embroidery equipment originally ran with aper tape, then substituted external boxes with floppy drives for he paper tape reader. Now, I guess we're substituting flash-based loppy emulators for the floppy-based paper-tape emulators. I can ardly wait until we start flogging flash memory emulators to plug nto the floppy emulators that plug into the paper tape emulators... --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Thu May 6 13:39:38 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 13:39:38 -0500 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <4BE2A837.8946.7F4CFD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BE17625.9937.FBE8E4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 5, 10 01:44:05 pm, <4BE2A837.8946.7F4CFD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BE30CEA.10505@vaxen.net> On 5/6/10 1:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For all we know, the $800 fee was for 5 minutes of work with a > soldering iron. That's fine by me. I suspect most of us have charged more for less, and without flinching. We all burned a lot of midnight oil earning it. I do, however, have to throw in my 2 cents about opening the drive. It doesn't matter how obvious the obvious problem is, if I'm going to charge more than $20 to recover your data, as far as I'm concerned I'm obligated to not further jeopardize it. I'd BETTER open that sucker up. I was actually shocked to read that the service under discussion considers it optional. Doc From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 6 13:40:05 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 14:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The last of our 9-tracks In-Reply-To: <5511DAB8-1945-4074-B15B-8DA30BB03055@neurotica.com> References: <201005040751.37640.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <5511DAB8-1945-4074-B15B-8DA30BB03055@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Unknown about rain damage. The 3420 had a perforated grid top and water >> definitely got inside. I believe the 3803 had a solid top. I didn't hang >> around for the auction, and it will probably be over by 3:00 P.M. (EDT). >> You might try calling the Surplus and Salvage office (814-865-4371) to find >> out if they were sold. Chances are, they'll go to a scrapper. The web >> site is: >> >> http://www.surplus.psu.edu/ > > Well, financial restrictions (as far as getting it moved) will prevent me > from participating. All I can do this time is be sad about it I guess. :-( I wish had had the resources to move or store something like this, but unfortunately I have neither. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 6 13:47:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 14:47:54 -0400 Subject: The last of our 9-tracks In-Reply-To: References: <201005040751.37640.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <5511DAB8-1945-4074-B15B-8DA30BB03055@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <146B6FF0-C9A0-4C9A-A71E-61E8B0677074@neurotica.com> On May 6, 2010, at 2:40 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: >>> Unknown about rain damage. The 3420 had a perforated grid top >>> and water definitely got inside. I believe the 3803 had a solid >>> top. I didn't hang around for the auction, and it will probably >>> be over by 3:00 P.M. (EDT). You might try calling the Surplus and >>> Salvage office (814-865-4371) to find out if they were sold. >>> Chances are, they'll go to a scrapper. The web site is: >>> http://www.surplus.psu.edu/ >> >> Well, financial restrictions (as far as getting it moved) will >> prevent me from participating. All I can do this time is be sad >> about it I guess. :-( > > I wish had had the resources to move or store something like > this, but unfortunately I have neither. :-( > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 6 13:55:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 11:55:51 -0700 Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: <4BE30CEA.10505@vaxen.net> References: <4BE17625.9937.FBE8E4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BE2A837.8946.7F4CFD@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BE30CEA.10505@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4BE2AE47.18774.96FC96@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 May 2010 at 13:39, Doc Shipley wrote: > It doesn't matter how obvious the obvious problem is, if I'm going to > charge more than $20 to recover your data, as far as I'm concerned I'm > obligated to not further jeopardize it. I'd BETTER open that sucker > up. If the drive spins up and loads the heads, any damage that could be done by not opening it up probably already has been done. On the other hand, if the drive were freshly salvaged from under 3 feet of Cumberland river mud, I'd agree that a thorough physical going-over was in order. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 6 14:38:55 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 15:38:55 -0400 Subject: Digital Joysticks (was Re: Greatest videogame device) Message-ID: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Those were gimmicks, too, in their day - we used to spend quite a bit >> of effort to adapt Atari joysticks to PET User Ports (one is easy, two >> joysticks takes a bit of effort because there are five switches and >> eight primary bits - mostly folks used diodes, but I think there was > > I am wondering how you did this... The wiring diagram is reproduced in the PET FAQ. Note that there was not a lot of software that supported joysticks since not that many PET owners had them. http://www.zimmers.net/cbmpics/cbm/PETx/petfaq.html > IIRC, there are 5 swithces for the joystick, up, down, left, right Yep. > OK, up and down can't be actuated simultaneously, nor can left and right. This becomes important later... > But > combinations such as up-and-right are possible, at least on any decent > joystick. That is not strictly correct - there were and are "4 way" and "8 way" joysticks. Pacman shipped with 4-way" joysticks, and many MAME enthusiasts have learned that trying to play with 8-way joysticks is more frustrating than playing with the original type. It's now possible to buy arcade-quality joysticks that can be swapped from the top (with some sort of push and rotation move) so that you can buy one set that plays either way without opening up your MAME cabinet. > And the fire button is independant of the joystick position. Yes. > That means there are 9 states for the joystick (centre, U, D, L, R, UL, > UR, DL, DR -- using the obvious abbreviations). That takes 4 bits to > encode. Exactly the same number as if you fed each switch into its own > port line. > > So you would still need 10 port lines... You are making an assumption here - that it's required to support 18 unique states (9 joystick states with button up, 9 with button down). To do that, yes, you need 10 port lines to support two joysticks. What the aforementioned diode trick does is to activate up and down simultaneously, an "impossible" 10th state for a regular mechanical joystick. The joystick scanner routine must be checking for that first, acting on the fire button being pressed, then *not* treating it like the combination of an up event and a down event. > I I had to do it on an 8 bit user port, I think I would use a '157 mux to > select between the 2 joysticks (4 bits each, going to 4 bits on the > port). And an port line configured as an output to switch between them. > And finally 2 more port inputs (a totla of 7 of the 8 user prot lines > used) for the fire buttons. I think the Sega Genesis did something like that; at least I recall a '157 in the game controller I dismantled years ago. By contrast, the NES used one or two 4021 shift registers to pump bits in (the standard NES controllers had 8 buttons and used 1 shift register, but the "power pad" had 12 sensor spots and used two shift registers). That's how they did eight buttons with a 7-pin connector - Vcc, ground, latch, clock, D0, D3, D4, where a regular controller sends back its data on D0, and the power pad sends back its data on D3 and D4 simultaneously. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 6 14:37:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 20:37:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at May 6, 10 02:25:18 pm Message-ID: > > (No, I don;t want an explanation. Sports and DrARD do not mix. The > > only > > 'cricket' I am interested in is better knwon as an HP-01) > > Hear hear, once again. Chasing a ball around in the grass? No I am a high mass hobbyist in 2 of the 3 senses (I am an agnostic, so you can guess the one that does not apply :-)). And if you ask me to kick a ball it w=ill go at approximately $\pi$/2 radians from where it would be useful for it to go.... > thanks. Watching other people chase a ball around in the grass? > Doubly so. Or as I once said when asked if I was watching $sporting_event :'The only thing I would like less than watching it would be taking part in it' :-) > > You may be my long-lost brother. ;) I thought hp-fix had already made that claim.. We share a love of Citroen cars, cats, and old HP computers after all :-) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 6 15:42:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 13:42:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE1FA32.6673.2FFBAF0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BE22B83.4010003@neurotica.com>, <4BE24526.40206@oldskool.org> <4BE1FA32.6673.2FFBAF0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100506134214.R79052@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But at some point, we'll be paying more attention to the "number" of > CPUs on the chip and less to the clock that they run on. Are there very many systems that can beat "Deep Crack"? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 6 15:20:55 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:20:55 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: Message-ID: <006901caed60$5ee74aa0$12fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 6:49 PM Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > > I still don't understand cricket scores. > > Does anybody? > > (No, I don;t want an explanation. Sports and DrARD do not mix. The only > 'cricket' I am interested in is better knwon as an HP-01) > > -tony I did explain it, directly to Chuck as I didn't want to get involved in another OT topic. Anyone who wishes to know can either Google 'cricket' or email me off-list. No I don't play, but used to watch lots of it on TV. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 6 16:23:14 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 14:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: <4BE29965.4080509@heeltoe.com> References: <4BE24996.1080303@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100506_004740_648156_969AE5CE) <4BE29965.4080509@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20100506142141.U80958@shell.lmi.net> > Al Kossow wrote: > > I am interviewing Andy Hertzfeld tomorrow, and had hoped to talk about > > Servant, but I can't find a copy of it around anywhere tonight. Does > > anyone have a copy they can send me? This was the finder replacement > > he did just before Multifinder came out. I think .953 was the last > > version. On Thu, 6 May 2010, Brad Parker wrote: > Wasn't it called "switcher" at that time? It was mentioned in Fabrice Florin's PBS/Nova? film "Hackers" (about the 1.0 Hackers' Conference that Stewart Brand put together) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 6 17:26:50 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 15:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100506152400.L82729@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 6 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > One of the oldest tricks in the car reapir trade is cleaning round > screwheds to indicate something has been removed (when in fact it > hasn't). We had a policy, . . . if there was paint/glyptol (sp?) on the screwheads, then once the repair was done, put paint back on the screwheads, using the same color IF we had it on hand. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 6 17:31:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 15:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100506152849.Y82729@shell.lmi.net> > > > I still stand my my statement that the master clock rate is meaningless. > > Laws of physics disagree with you for sufficiently high orders of magnitude. On Thu, 6 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Care to explain? I can't think of a single law of physics that prohibits > using as many clock cylces as I want for a particular operaiton. In which > case, an 8MHz RISC processor which takes 1 cycle for a given operation > could be a lot faster than a 1GHz processor what happens to take 256 > cycles for the same operation. . . . and, of course, at a higher level, any benchmark becomes a software issue. It is easy to "prove" that a 4MHz Z80 is faster than a 4GHz Pentium, just by setting a task, and stipulating that the task must be accomplished using software that was/is commercially available. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 6 18:06:37 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 16:06:37 -0700 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: <20100506142141.U80958@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BE24996.1080303@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100506_004740_648156_969AE5CE) <4BE29965.4080509@heeltoe.com> <20100506142141.U80958@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE34B7D.6060902@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/10 2:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Al Kossow wrote: >>> I am interviewing Andy Hertzfeld tomorrow, and had hoped to talk about >>> Servant, but I can't find a copy of it around anywhere tonight. A huge thank you to Nigel Williams who forwarded a working copy of .951 five minutes before Bill and Andy arrived. We spent an hour talking about MacPaint and Quickdraw (Apple has finally given CHM approval to make the sources available) then another hour on Alice, Dali Clock, Servant, Hypercard, and Magic Cap. I'm exhausted... From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu May 6 20:21:32 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:21:32 +1000 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: <4BE34B7D.6060902@bitsavers.org> References: <4BE24996.1080303@bitsavers.org> <4BE29965.4080509@heeltoe.com> <20100506142141.U80958@shell.lmi.net> <4BE34B7D.6060902@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > ... forwarded a working copy of .951 five > minutes before Bill and Andy arrived. luckily our cat was reading my email and shook me awake at 3am to respond: "I need bickies!...Al Kossow could use some help; ...milk with these!...you can go now" We spent an hour talking about MacPaint > and Quickdraw (Apple has finally given CHM approval to make the sources > available) > then another hour on Alice, Dali Clock, Servant, Hypercard, and Magic Cap. > exciting stuff; thank you for your efforts on this interview,I look forward to reading/listening. I wonder if Apple would be now willing to release a copy of Lisa C compiler (beta) - the beta release (only) included the headers/support to allow C applications to be compiled targeting Lisa (instead of just Macintosh); and Lisa FORTRAN is still to be found too. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu May 6 20:29:21 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:29:21 +1000 Subject: seeking DEC VT100-style keyboard keycaps SETUP and NOSCROLL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > (Aside: on powerup it promptly had conniptions and also needs parts for > the > > PSU - fortunately easy to find at our local electronics store). > > What fialed? Isn't this a swticher? If the chopper transistor has failed > (and it did in a couple of VT100s here),, you need to check surrounding > components (particularly low-value resisotrs) too. > yes a switcher, more pictures here including the exploded/over-stressed metallised polyester capacitor, which was across the mains: http://picasaweb.google.com.au/109027456703228169358/20100504DECGIGI# someone on IRC mentioned that this Aztec PSU is very similar to the one in the Apple /// From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 6 20:56:41 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 18:56:41 -0700 Subject: seeking DEC VT100-style keyboard keycaps SETUP and NOSCROLL In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Hi I've seen that type of keyboard before. I'd been looking for Canon Cat key switches for a friend. It wasn't the Cat though. I think these are the same as the H89 Heathkit uses. I could be wrong but it is worth a look. You may not get a matching text but at least it may give one a key to hit. Dwight > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:29:21 +1000 > Subject: Re: seeking DEC VT100-style keyboard keycaps SETUP and NOSCROLL > From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > (Aside: on powerup it promptly had conniptions and also needs parts for > > the > > > PSU - fortunately easy to find at our local electronics store). > > > > What fialed? Isn't this a swticher? If the chopper transistor has failed > > (and it did in a couple of VT100s here),, you need to check surrounding > > components (particularly low-value resisotrs) too. > > > > yes a switcher, more pictures here including the exploded/over-stressed > metallised polyester capacitor, which was across the mains: > > http://picasaweb.google.com.au/109027456703228169358/20100504DECGIGI# > > someone on IRC mentioned that this Aztec PSU is very similar to the one in > the Apple /// _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu May 6 21:39:02 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:39:02 +1000 Subject: picture of VAX 4000 Model 50, so-called VAXbrick? Message-ID: I am curious about this model, anyone have a photograph/picture/scanned manual for this model? Are they rare? I have seen only one reference to one being on eBay in 2004. thanks. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 6 21:47:44 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 19:47:44 -0700 Subject: picture of VAX 4000 Model 50, so-called VAXbrick? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:39 PM +1000 5/7/10, Nigel Williams wrote: >I am curious about this model, anyone have a photograph/picture/scanned >manual for this model? > >Are they rare? I have seen only one reference to one being on eBay in 2004. I'll put it this way, I've never heard of one. If they really exist, they're *RARE*. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu May 6 22:07:32 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:07:32 +1000 Subject: Looking for a vintage computer for film in Oz... In-Reply-To: References: <4BDDE243.17204.263C325@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Simon Fryer wrote: > > http://aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/Images/InventHiRes/IBM360.jpg > > Ahhh. That photo.... I am the one in the hat. > > I guess it will depend on where they are shooting the bank scene.... > Perth is a long way from anywhere. Also, having seen Tonys shed, the > 360 may not be all that accessible. Hi Simon, is there a story to tell about the 360/40 rescue? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 6 23:29:48 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 21:29:48 -0700 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: References: <4BE24996.1080303@bitsavers.org> <4BE29965.4080509@heeltoe.com> <20100506142141.U80958@shell.lmi.net> <4BE34B7D.6060902@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BE3973C.5070302@bitsavers.org> On 5/6/10 6:21 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > I wonder if Apple would be now willing to release a copy of Lisa C compiler > (beta) - the beta release (only) included the headers/support to allow C > applications to be compiled targeting Lisa (instead of just Macintosh); and > Lisa FORTRAN is still to be found too. > I doubt anyone inside the company would know if copies still exist. Bruce Daniels might know, but I think it would be pretty tough to find. I'm guessing Lisa FORTRAN would have come from SVS (Silicon Valley Software) who put one out for the 68K around the same time as their non-interpreted Pascal which Apple used on Mac and Lisa and also as the starting point for the MPW C compiler. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 6 23:41:03 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 21:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: Key CAD for DOS Message-ID: Stuff free for shipping: Key CAD for DOS (PC/XT/AT) complete with manuals and media Norton Utilities Version 4.0 by Richard Evans Epson, Epson, Read All about It! by Dave Prochnow PC Tools Deluxe 5.0 for DOS (manual only) Epson MX-80 Type 2 operations manual Epson MX-100 operations manual I ran this stuff for a week and a half in the dollar bin with my ebay stuff. No takers. Let me know if you want any of it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu May 6 23:44:20 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:44:20 +1000 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/6/10 6:21 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > >> I wonder if Apple would be now willing to release a copy of Lisa C >> compiler >> (beta) - the beta release (only) included the headers/support to allow C >> applications to be compiled targeting Lisa (instead of just Macintosh); >> and >> Lisa FORTRAN is still to be found too. >> >> I doubt anyone inside the company would know if copies still exist. > Bruce > Daniels might know, but I think it would be pretty tough to find. Hopefully, someone will find this thread and remember they kept a copy > I'm guessing > Lisa FORTRAN would have come from SVS (Silicon Valley Software) who put one > out for the 68K around the same time as their non-interpreted Pascal which > Apple > used on Mac and Lisa and also as the starting point for the MPW C compiler. > Agree that FORTRAN probably came from SVS. David Craig had this to say about Lisa C: ... this C compiler was written by Green Hills. From what I recall about this from talking to a member of Apple's Lisa development team, this compiler was created under contract and Apple itself did not have any people who maintained this compiler. As such, this compiler had a very short life. I also believe that Apple's later Macintosh MPW C compiler was written in MPW Pascal and maintained by Apple. A later C compiler was written in C. Note also that Lisa C could only generate Macintosh object files, not Lisa object files (the Lisa's obj files were much more complex that the Mac's due to the Lisa's need to support a virtual memory segmented architecture). >From the Lisa C manual: "If you know of someone with a Beta version, then you can use it to generate Lisa code. The Lisa support was stripped out of the final version". From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu May 6 23:57:02 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 05:57:02 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BE177ED.5539.102E018@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" atMay 5, 10 01:51:41 pm Message-ID: <99D3ED7451844E818FB95EFC2B83B736@Edicons.local> Most of us who went to school here in England would not only know how the scoring works but could explain how to play. I have a thirty year old son who is a fearsome pace bowler. He could bowl a leg break, an off break a googly, a china man and a full toss all in the same over if he wanted to. Speeds are about the same as a top tennis players serve. Off topic, so contact me off list for more information. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 06 May 2010 18:50 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > I still don't understand cricket scores. Does anybody? (No, I don;t want an explanation. Sports and DrARD do not mix. The only 'cricket' I am interested in is better knwon as an HP-01) -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 7 00:15:08 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 00:15:08 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100506134214.R79052@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4BE22B83.4010003@neurotica.com>, <4BE24526.40206@oldskool.org> <4BE1FA32.6673.2FFBAF0@cclist.sydex.com> <20100506134214.R79052@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE3A1DC.6070608@oldskool.org> On 5/6/2010 3:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 5 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> But at some point, we'll be paying more attention to the "number" of >> CPUs on the chip and less to the clock that they run on. > > Are there very many systems that can beat "Deep Crack"? Almost 1000, if the supercomputer listings are to be believed. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 7 00:17:30 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 00:17:30 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE3A26A.3070708@oldskool.org> On 5/6/2010 1:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 5/5/2010 3:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> >>> I still stand my my statement that the master clock rate is meaningless. >> >> Laws of physics disagree with you for sufficiently high orders of magnitude. > > Care to explain? I can't think of a single law of physics that prohibits > using as many clock cylces as I want for a particular operaiton. In which > case, an 8MHz RISC processor which takes 1 cycle for a given operation > could be a lot faster than a 1GHz processor what happens to take 256 > cycles for the same operation. Except that there has never been a CPU built to run over 1GHz where a given operation takes 256 cycles to execute. If you're comparing 1982 processors to 1982 processors, then yes, we could have a spirited discussion about 6809 vs. 6502 vs. z80 vs. 8086 vs. 68000. But this is 2010. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 7 00:20:10 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 00:20:10 -0500 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk><605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> On 5/6/2010 12:05 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I have seen every Star Trek film and TV show. I could never get into DSN and > the last ST TV series (can't recall it's name). Voyager is one of my > favourites. If you can't remember the name of the "Enterprise" series, have you really seen every Star Trek TV show? They were indeed terrible. When the best episode of the entire series is a ST:TNG throwback, using ST:TNG actors, and it's the LAST episode of the entire series, you know you've really screwed up. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 7 00:21:25 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 00:21:25 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> On 5/6/2010 12:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Is the IBM PC > 8 bit (width of the data bus) or 16 bit? 16-bit. Until the day I die. I thought it was proper practice to note a CPU based on the size of it's internal registers and/or the number of bits that can be changed in a single operation. Is someone seriously challenging that the IBM PC 5150 wasn't a 16-bit computer? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From adolfo210511 at att.net Thu May 6 11:03:44 2010 From: adolfo210511 at att.net (adolfo bustos) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 09:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: B&C Microsystems Message-ID: <909297.45187.qm@web180310.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> From: "Adolfo Bustos" To: Subject: B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner Date: Thursday, May 06, 2010 7:54 AM cctech at classiccmp.org M H Stein Hi, Mike; Do You have the software "burn.com" for the B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner, it's run Windows XP? appreciate your answers. thanks in advance Adolfo From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu May 6 17:35:04 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 17:35:04 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100506152849.Y82729@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100506152849.Y82729@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 5:31 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > > I still stand my my statement that the master clock rate is meaningless. >> > Laws of physics disagree with you for sufficiently high orders of magnitude. > > On Thu, 6 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> Care to explain? I can't think of a single law of physics that prohibits >> using as many clock cylces as I want for a particular operaiton. In which >> case, an 8MHz RISC processor which takes 1 cycle for a given operation >> could be a lot faster than a 1GHz processor what happens to take 256 >> cycles for the same operation. > > . . . and, of course, at a higher level, any benchmark becomes a software > issue. ?It is easy to "prove" that a 4MHz Z80 is faster than a 4GHz > Pentium, just by setting a task, and stipulating that the task must be > accomplished using software that was/is commercially available. > Bah, I say just go back to non-microprocessor based discrete logic consoles. ;) Marty From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 7 00:34:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 01:34:57 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> On 5/7/10 1:21 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/6/2010 12:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Is the IBM PC >> 8 bit (width of the data bus) or 16 bit? > > 16-bit. Until the day I die. > > I thought it was proper practice to note a CPU based on the size of it's > internal registers and/or the number of bits that can be changed in a > single operation. > > Is someone seriously challenging that the IBM PC 5150 wasn't a 16-bit > computer? Well you've got to admit, it does depend on how you look at it. The 8088 has an 8-bit data bus and it does two bus cycles to move a 16-bit value. You know...just like an 8080. ;) It's just like parallelism. There are many levels of parallelism in computing. Most of our processors today are "parallel processors" in that they are bit-parallel, in contrast to the the PDP-8/S for example. Then there's parallelism at the instruction level (superscalar execution), parallelism at the processor level (multiprocessor, multi-core), parallelism at the system level (clusters), etc etc etc. Above you said "number of bits that can be cahnged in a single operation". What constitutes a "single operation"? An atomic instruction? A microinstruction? A micro-op in a PentiumPro? Howabout SIMD? A SIMD instruction changes LOTS of bits in a single operation, and in something like a PowerPC, you can determine just how many are affected. Does this mean it's a variable-"width" processor? This is just like the tired old debates on what was the first personal computer and whether an FPGA-based (say) PDP-11 is an emulation or a hardware processor. It really depends on how/where you look at it and what context you're speaking in, and there's never a clean ending of the argument. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Fri May 7 00:38:56 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 00:38:56 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> On 5/7/2010 12:34 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well you've got to admit, it does depend on how you look at it. The 8088 > has an 8-bit data bus and it does two bus cycles to move a 16-bit value. > You know...just like an 8080. ;) Well, the 8080 can't do a 16-bit by 16-bit multiply to get a 32-bit product, so that's an obvious difference. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 7 00:46:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 01:46:21 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> On 5/7/10 1:38 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/7/2010 12:34 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Well you've got to admit, it does depend on how you look at it. The 8088 >> has an 8-bit data bus and it does two bus cycles to move a 16-bit value. >> You know...just like an 8080. ;) > > Well, the 8080 can't do a 16-bit by 16-bit multiply to get a 32-bit > product, so that's an obvious difference. It CAN, however, do a 16 bit/16 bit add and produce a 16 bit result. Does THAT make it a 16-bit processor? If "processor" means "something that processes something", and that processor can "process" two 16-bit values in a "single operation", does that make it a "16-bit processor"? See, it's not all that cut-and-dried. I think we need to defer to what is "commonly accepted" amongst the learned. Everyone knows the 8080 is an 8-bit processor and the 8086/8088 are 16-bit processors. But you CAN, if you try hard enough, define them differently. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 01:08:18 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 23:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> > > Well, the 8080 can't do a 16-bit by 16-bit multiply to get a 32-bit > > product, so that's an obvious difference. So, therefore, we all agree that the 8080 is NOT a 32-bit processor! > See, it's not all that cut-and-dried. I think we need to defer to > what is "commonly accepted" amongst the learned. Everyone knows the Who are the "learned"? > 8080 is an 8-bit processor and the 8086/8088 are 16-bit processors. But > you CAN, if you try hard enough, define them differently. Aside from disparaging others' definitions, does anybody have a decent definition? Are the registers 16 bit registers that can be split into two 8 bit? or are they pairs of 8 bit registers that can be used together for 16 bit values? Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the processor!) The software of an 8088 looks like 16 bit; the hardware of an 8088 looks an awful lot like 8 bit. There are people who consider the 8088 to be an 8-bit and consider the 8086 to be 15 bit, in spite of their "similarities". What do you consider 80386 to be? how about the 80386-SX? It's hardware seems similar to 80286; what is THAT? What the hell is a "Celeron"? or a "Dragonball"? or an "Atom"? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 7 01:15:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 02:15:49 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE3B015.7070107@neurotica.com> On 5/7/10 2:08 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Well, the 8080 can't do a 16-bit by 16-bit multiply to get a 32-bit >>> product, so that's an obvious difference. > > So, therefore, we all agree that the 8080 is NOT a 32-bit processor! Right. But is it 8 or 16? >> See, it's not all that cut-and-dried. I think we need to defer to >> what is "commonly accepted" amongst the learned. Everyone knows the > > Who are the "learned"? Well specifically, people like us, who actually know how computers work. > Are the registers 16 bit registers that can be split into two 8 bit? > or are they pairs of 8 bit registers that can be used together for 16 bit > values? > > Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? > (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the > processor!) > > The software of an 8088 looks like 16 bit; the hardware of an 8088 looks > an awful lot like 8 bit. There are people who consider the 8088 to be an > 8-bit and consider the 8086 to be 15 bit, in spite of their > "similarities". Yes, agreed 100% all around. > What do you consider 80386 to be? By what measure? ;) > how about the 80386-SX? It's hardware seems similar to 80286; what is > THAT? Well that's an 80386 with a half-width data bus, much like the 8088 is an 8086 with a half-width data bus. So...by what measure? ;) > What the hell is a "Celeron"? or a "Dragonball"? or an "Atom"? Well the Celeron being a Pentium, conventional wisdom says "32-bit". Dragonball is a CPU32-core processor, whose ALU is 32-bits wide. But the Dragonball (at least the 68EZ328 variant, the last one I designed with) has a 16-bit data bus! So...which is it? 16 or 32? (sorry, I know zero about the Atom, can't comment there but would welcome some knowledge) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri May 7 01:30:50 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 6 May 2010 23:30:50 -0700 Subject: picture of VAX 4000 Model 50, so-called VAXbrick? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > I am curious about this model, anyone have a photograph/picture/scanned > manual for this model? > > Are they rare? I have seen only one reference to one being on eBay in 2004. > > thanks. > Here's a Nemonix manual on how to upgrade one: http://www.nemonixengineering.com/pdfs/EM_VAX4000_50CPU_CacheUp05.pdf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 7 02:20:20 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 01:20:20 -0600 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk><605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/6/2010 12:05 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> >> I have seen every Star Trek film and TV show. I could never get into >> DSN and >> the last ST TV series (can't recall it's name). Voyager is one of my >> favourites. > > If you can't remember the name of the "Enterprise" series, have you > really seen every Star Trek TV show? > > They were indeed terrible. When the best episode of the entire series is > a ST:TNG throwback, using ST:TNG actors, and it's the LAST episode of > the entire series, you know you've really screwed up. Bring back Captain Pike, I loved the pilot film of classic Star Trek. The idea of space travel taking weeks or months , relative time to the Space Craft, I think would have made for better stories would have more time to develop a plot and character viewpoints. Ben. PS. AND NO TIME TRAVEL !!! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 7 02:24:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 03:24:27 -0400 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk><605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BE3C02B.9020405@neurotica.com> On 5/7/10 3:20 AM, Ben wrote: > Bring back Captain Pike, I loved the pilot film of classic Star Trek. > The idea of space travel taking weeks or months , relative time to the > Space Craft, I think would have made for better stories would have more > time to develop a plot and character viewpoints. > Ben. > PS. AND NO TIME TRAVEL !!! Yes. Time travel...Brannon Braga's default theme when he can't figure out what to write. *barf* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 7 02:24:59 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 00:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk><605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 May 2010, Ben wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> On 5/6/2010 12:05 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >>> >>> I have seen every Star Trek film and TV show. I could never get into >>> DSN and >>> the last ST TV series (can't recall it's name). Voyager is one of my >>> favourites. >> >> If you can't remember the name of the "Enterprise" series, have you >> really seen every Star Trek TV show? >> >> They were indeed terrible. When the best episode of the entire series is >> a ST:TNG throwback, using ST:TNG actors, and it's the LAST episode of >> the entire series, you know you've really screwed up. > > Bring back Captain Pike, I loved the pilot film of classic Star Trek. > The idea of space travel taking weeks or months , relative time to the > Space Craft, I think would have made for better stories would have more > time to develop a plot and character viewpoints. > Ben. > PS. AND NO TIME TRAVEL !!! I'd like to see a good attempt made to bring "Hyperion" to the bigscreen. That one had some good thinking about the impact of time-dilation. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri May 7 03:21:30 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 09:21:30 +0100 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk><605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa><4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I love all space based shows and films. Who remembers 'The Last Starfighter' and 'Above and Beyond'. What I hate is the 'on planet' parts. Every planet in the universe just cannot look like somewhere on Earth. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ben Sent: 07 May 2010 08:20 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/6/2010 12:05 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> >> I have seen every Star Trek film and TV show. I could never get into >> DSN and >> the last ST TV series (can't recall it's name). Voyager is one of my >> favourites. > > If you can't remember the name of the "Enterprise" series, have you > really seen every Star Trek TV show? > > They were indeed terrible. When the best episode of the entire series is > a ST:TNG throwback, using ST:TNG actors, and it's the LAST episode of > the entire series, you know you've really screwed up. Bring back Captain Pike, I loved the pilot film of classic Star Trek. The idea of space travel taking weeks or months , relative time to the Space Craft, I think would have made for better stories would have more time to develop a plot and character viewpoints. Ben. PS. AND NO TIME TRAVEL !!! From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri May 7 02:39:05 2010 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 09:39:05 +0200 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE3C399.30803@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 07.05.2010 08:08, schrieb Fred Cisin: >> 8080 is an 8-bit processor and the 8086/8088 are 16-bit processors. But >> you CAN, if you try hard enough, define them differently. > > Aside from disparaging others' definitions, does anybody have a decent > definition? > > Are the registers 16 bit registers that can be split into two 8 bit? > or are they pairs of 8 bit registers that can be used together for 16 bit > values? A common argument is the word size of the primary calculation store, usually called the accumulator. I don't say "register" because CPUs like the TMS9900 do not have an on-chip arithmetic/logic register set. The 8086/8088 have, besides other regs, the AX accumulator which distinguishes it from, for instance, the 8 bitters like 6809 (A and B 8bit-register, combinable for certain ops to a D register), or the 8080 with A, besides some HL register pair suitable for a few unsymmetric operations. An 68008, even with an 8 bit data bus, would then qualify as a 32 bit CPU, and a PDP-8 as 16 bit, despite of what Also frequently seen are address bus sizes beyond 16 bit, at least somehow intrinsically foreseen in the instruction set (APRs, segment registers); but this is a secondary category (what would be a T-11 then?). > Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? Yes, as it just determines overall system performance, cf the 68000/68008/68010/68020 family. > The software of an 8088 looks like 16 bit; the hardware of an 8088 looks > an awful lot like 8 bit. There are people who consider the 8088 to be an > 8-bit and consider the 8086 to be 15 bit, in spite of their > "similarities". It depends on whether you look at it as a hardware or software engineer. Usually though, the cripple versions of a 16 bit CPU cause much more glue logic on the board than a straight-forward 16bit bus CPUs with non- multiplexing of signals. > > What do you consider 80386 to be? > how about the 80386-SX? It's hardware seems similar to 80286; what is > THAT? Do they run the software of their corresponding baseline family member? If a 386 would qualify as 16 bit only because it still understands the 286 segmenting and security model, then it could likewise qualify as a 4 bit processor because a rather simple cross compiler would be sufficient to run it 4040 code. And leave alone the V20, CP/M-86 ran cross compiled 8080 code. This is becoming absurd though I already heard that. > What the hell is a "Celeron"? or a "Dragonball"? or an "Atom"? Usually people are able to distinguish a truck from a limousine. But what are pickups and SUVs then? -- Holger From charlie at tech-j.biz Fri May 7 02:42:14 2010 From: charlie at tech-j.biz (Charlie) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 19:42:14 +1200 Subject: TMS1000 Processor (fwd) Message-ID: <4BE3C456.1040206@tech-j.biz> Attention: Al Kossow See url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2004-January/035417.html You discussed options with TMS1000. Have you found a way to read the rom as yet. There is : http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT3988604&id=Py4uAAAAEBAJ&dq=3,988,604 in the PDF it explains using the 'test mode' to dump rom. Is this of use ? Beyond my capability. Would appreciate your comments. charlie at tech-j.biz Charlie Harris New Zealand From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Fri May 7 06:55:42 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 21:55:42 +1000 Subject: picture of VAX 4000 Model 50, so-called VAXbrick? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:30 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Here's a Nemonix manual on how to upgrade one: > > http://www.nemonixengineering.com/pdfs/EM_VAX4000_50CPU_CacheUp05.pdf > Interesting, thanks for finding. To my surprise HP.COM still has VAX material and I found this page: http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c00328845 and this statement: "The VAX 4000-50 Brick is a sealed unit which takes up the CPU and Memory slots in a MicroVAX 3000 series, VAX 4000-200 system, BA215, BA211, BA430 or BA431 enclosures" Perhaps the VAXbrick was not a standalone "system" but just a "CPU" upgrade, an integrated module (CPU+memory) to go into the model 200 as suggested in the statement above. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri May 7 07:07:54 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:07:54 +0200 Subject: HP's VAX pages [Was: Re: picture of VAX 4000 Model 50, so-called VAXbrick?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100507120754.GA11459@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, May 07, 2010 at 09:55:42PM +1000, Nigel Williams wrote: > Interesting, thanks for finding. > > To my surprise HP.COM still has VAX material and I found this page: > > http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c00328845 >From time to time I stumble upon pages from HP when I google after VAX information. Some pages work, others not. If I search for microvax on HP's product page it will list a handfull of results, but mostly the given links are broken. Is there way to get an overview of the information available? Has anybody done mirror? /P From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 7 08:59:17 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 09:59:17 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the 80s yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do valtrep. Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep is quite useless it seems... Dan. > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:44:20 +1000 > Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 5/6/10 6:21 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > > > >> I wonder if Apple would be now willing to release a copy of Lisa C > >> compiler > >> (beta) - the beta release (only) included the headers/support to allow C > >> applications to be compiled targeting Lisa (instead of just Macintosh); > >> and > >> Lisa FORTRAN is still to be found too. > >> > >> I doubt anyone inside the company would know if copies still exist. > > Bruce > > Daniels might know, but I think it would be pretty tough to find. > > > Hopefully, someone will find this thread and remember they kept a copy > > > > I'm guessing > > Lisa FORTRAN would have come from SVS (Silicon Valley Software) who put one > > out for the 68K around the same time as their non-interpreted Pascal which > > Apple > > used on Mac and Lisa and also as the starting point for the MPW C compiler. > > > > Agree that FORTRAN probably came from SVS. > > David Craig had this to say about Lisa C: > > ... this C compiler was written by Green Hills. From what I recall about > this from talking to a member of Apple's Lisa development team, this > compiler was created under contract and Apple itself did not have any people > who maintained this compiler. As such, this compiler had a very short life. > I also believe that Apple's later Macintosh MPW C compiler was written in > MPW Pascal and maintained by Apple. A later C compiler was written in C. > Note also that Lisa C could only generate Macintosh object files, not Lisa > object files (the Lisa's obj files were much more complex that the Mac's due > to the Lisa's need to support a virtual memory segmented architecture). > > >From the Lisa C manual: > > "If you know of someone with a Beta version, then you can use it to generate > Lisa code. The Lisa support was stripped out of the final version". _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri May 7 09:04:42 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 10:04:42 -0400 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: My favorites (on-topic as they are OLD!): Probe - Issac Asimov does Columbo. Cheesy, but mostly hard sci-fi storylines (AI, ball lightning, etc...) Riptide - Another detective show - kinda like the Rockford Files mixed with Wargames. Even cheesier than Probe, but more fun to watch. Stingray - Yet another P.I. show with a some science-based puzzles. The one that sticks in my memory was a biosphere type operation where people were going mad and killing each other. Turned out it was overheating electrical conduit that roasted PVC piping, that leaked toxic vapor into an HVAC vent. This show was *really* well shot. The Secret Life of Machines - A stuffy professor builds cool gadgets to show how everyday machines work. One of the best shows ever about engineering. Mr. Wizard - I caught the 80's incarnation on Nickelodeon. I lusted after his Vectrex and Heathkit Hero... Junkyard Wars - More recent - teams pick through a junkyard to build machines that compete against each other. My favorite - an antique Rover turned into an amphibious car. They simply cut the rear drive axle and bolted a propeller to it. Brilliant! I miss this show... From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri May 7 09:30:31 2010 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 09:30:31 -0500 Subject: Funny video...some old mainframe hardware in use! Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46A0C@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Enjoy! bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: owner-vse-l at Lehigh.EDU [mailto:owner-vse-l at Lehigh.EDU] On Behalf Of Ingo Franzki Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 8:08 AM To: VSE Discussion List Subject: Funny video: Linux on IBM System z: A silent clip on the past and the You may know some of the "actors" in that video..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i7kBnhN3Lg Kind regards, Ingo Franzki, IBM From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 7 10:22:03 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 08:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) In-Reply-To: from RodSmallwood at "May 7, 10 09:21:30 am" Message-ID: <201005071522.o47FM3nh012580@floodgap.com> > I love all space based shows and films. Who remembers 'The Last Starfighter' > and 'Above and Beyond'. What I hate is the 'on planet' parts. Every planet > in the universe just cannot look like somewhere on Earth. I like the original Trek, but I am first and always a fan of the original Mission: Impossible (and to a lesser extent the 1988 revival). Barney Collier should have some fans in this group. Of new shows, the only ones I particularly care for are Burn Notice and NCIS, but only NCIS is particularly geeky (McGee and Abby), and it's definitely in no way realistic. But I love the characters. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- New political correctness is but old fascism writ large. -- Dr Digby James - From mross666 at hotmail.com Fri May 7 10:44:22 2010 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:44:22 +0000 Subject: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Message: 11 > Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 14:03:19 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4BDF3A17.1090900 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 5/3/10 2:01 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 5/3/10 1:20 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Anyone have these available - I would like to try them out on a x86 box. > >> > > > > There is a simulation of Viewpoint under Windows written by Don Woodward > > called Dawn. > > > http://www.woodward.org/mps/index.html Or, you could pick up the real thing: http://www.corestore.org/gvwin21.zip http://www.corestore.org/gvwin21.zip Or, if you want to try the X version - runs on Solaris 1.x I believe: http://www.corestore.org/GVX_1.05.iso.zip http://www.corestore.org/GVXv1_0.zip A long time since I've played with these; supplied as-is, no warranty, worth what you're paying for them, may cause confusion and visual disturbance. Enjoy. Mike _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 7 11:07:42 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 12:07:42 -0400 Subject: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE43ACE.9000004@atarimuseum.com> Thanks Mike, that is just what I'm looking for!!!! :-D Mike Ross wrote: >> Message: 11 >> Date: Mon, 03 May 2010 14:03:19 -0700 >> From: Al Kossow >> Subject: Re: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Message-ID: <4BDF3A17.1090900 at bitsavers.org> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> On 5/3/10 2:01 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> On 5/3/10 1:20 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone have these available - I would like to try them out on a x86 box. >>>> >>>> >>> There is a simulation of Viewpoint under Windows written by Don Woodward >>> called Dawn. >>> >>> >> http://www.woodward.org/mps/index.html >> > > Or, you could pick up the real thing: > > http://www.corestore.org/gvwin21.zip > http://www.corestore.org/gvwin21.zip > > Or, if you want to try the X version - runs on Solaris 1.x I believe: > > http://www.corestore.org/GVX_1.05.iso.zip > http://www.corestore.org/GVXv1_0.zip > > A long time since I've played with these; supplied as-is, no warranty, worth what you're paying for them, may cause confusion and visual disturbance. Enjoy. > > Mike > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 > From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 7 11:33:22 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 10:33:22 -0600 Subject: VSV21-AA (M7656) Qbus graphics card Message-ID: Can anyone tell me about this product? I found it in the module list described as follows: M7656 VSV21-AA Q Colour graphics module: M68K processor, HD63486 M7656 video processor (512x512 or 512x256 resolution), M7656 Serial ports for mouse, trackball, console and M7656 LK201. I'm interested in knowing what software products support this. For instance, if I put this card in a Qbus VAXserver 4000/300, will it enable me to run DECwindows locally? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 12:14:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 10:14:36 -0700 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4BE3E80C.14068.3A069D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2010 at 10:04, Jason McBrien wrote: > My favorites (on-topic as they are OLD!): I liked some original "Twilight Zone" episodes. "Science Fiction Theatre" and "The Outer Limits" could be unbelievably awful. Was there ever an episode of SFT that dealt with computers? But then, I liked "Cop Rock". Shows what kind of taste I have. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 7 12:25:19 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 18:25:19 +0100 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk><605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com><4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk><005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa><4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <005001caee0b$e2990310$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 3:04 PM Subject: Re: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) > My favorites (on-topic as they are OLD!): > > Probe - Issac Asimov does Columbo. Cheesy, but mostly hard sci-fi storylines > (AI, ball lightning, etc...) > > Riptide - Another detective show - kinda like the Rockford Files mixed with > Wargames. Even cheesier than Probe, but more fun to watch. > > Stingray - Yet another P.I. show with a some science-based puzzles. The one > that sticks in my memory was a biosphere type operation where people were > going mad and killing each other. Turned out it was overheating electrical > conduit that roasted PVC piping, that leaked toxic vapor into an HVAC vent. > This show was *really* well shot. > > The Secret Life of Machines - A stuffy professor builds cool gadgets to show > how everyday machines work. One of the best shows ever about engineering. > > Mr. Wizard - I caught the 80's incarnation on Nickelodeon. I lusted after > his Vectrex and Heathkit Hero... > > Junkyard Wars - More recent - teams pick through a junkyard to build > machines that compete against each other. My favorite - an antique Rover > turned into an amphibious car. They simply cut the rear drive axle and > bolted a propeller to it. Brilliant! I miss this show... Not heard of those shows (ok, I know Stingray, as in Gerry Andersons creation...). I am curious when Junkyard Wars was made. We have a show here in the UK called Scrapheap Challenge which sounds very much similar (2 teams compete to build a contraption to accomplish a specific task), and is hosted by Robert Llewellyn (Kryten from Red Dwarf). Hmmm... Red Dwarf could be added to the list. Kryten is a robot after all :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 7 12:35:04 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 18:35:04 +0100 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning oftheend for floppies) References: <201005071522.o47FM3nh012580@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <005101caee0b$e4eb7e90$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: Re: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning oftheend for floppies) > > I love all space based shows and films. Who remembers 'The Last Starfighter' > > and 'Above and Beyond'. What I hate is the 'on planet' parts. Every planet > > in the universe just cannot look like somewhere on Earth. > > I like the original Trek, but I am first and always a fan of the original > Mission: Impossible (and to a lesser extent the 1988 revival). Barney > Collier should have some fans in this group. > > Of new shows, the only ones I particularly care for are Burn Notice and NCIS, > but only NCIS is particularly geeky (McGee and Abby), and it's definitely > in no way realistic. But I love the characters. > Yeah, I love Abby too. I particularly like the hippo toy she has (I'm sure you know why) and some of Abby's weird moments - the 'rearranging her thoughts' moment in the current season has to be one of her best moments. She is always a very sexy (whether dressed in her normal goth outfits or costume party outfits). I have been a fan of NCIS from season 1. The Last Starfighter was excellent, except for the enemy fighters all being nicely lined up at the end of the film. That was such a disappointment. They get one of the best pilots in the universe and when anyone would have done in that situation! Did that arcade really exist? If not, has anyone tried to make one? Since they haven't been mentioned yet, I would like to throw in the following films: Forbidden Planet (Robbie The Robots first appearance on TV) The Black Hole (Maxamillion is scary as...) Saturn 3 (apart from a gorgeous Farah Fawcett, Hectre is definately scary) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri May 7 13:24:54 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:24:54 -0400 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <005001caee0b$e2990310$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> <005001caee0b$e2990310$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jason McBrien" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 3:04 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning > ofthe > end for floppies) > > > Not heard of those shows (ok, I know Stingray, as in Gerry Andersons > creation...). I am curious when Junkyard Wars was made. We have a show here > in the UK called Scrapheap Challenge which sounds very much similar (2 > teams > compete to build a contraption to accomplish a specific task), and is > hosted > by Robert Llewellyn (Kryten from Red Dwarf). > Junkyard Wars is the same show as Scrapheap Challenge. They made some US-specific episodes, but most were made in the UK. It ended somewhere around 2006-2007, though I understand it's still in production in the UK. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri May 7 13:27:20 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 19:27:20 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 May 2010, at 08:25, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 02:15:49 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: > thebeginningof > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4BE3B015.7070107 at neurotica.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 5/7/10 2:08 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Well, the 8080 can't do a 16-bit by 16-bit multiply to get a 32-bit >>>> product, so that's an obvious difference. >> >> So, therefore, we all agree that the 8080 is NOT a 32-bit processor! > > Right. But is it 8 or 16? > >>> See, it's not all that cut-and-dried. I think we need to defer to >>> what is "commonly accepted" amongst the learned. Everyone knows the >> >> Who are the "learned"? > > Well specifically, people like us, who actually know how computers work. > >> Are the registers 16 bit registers that can be split into two 8 bit? >> or are they pairs of 8 bit registers that can be used together for 16 bit >> values? >> >> Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? >> (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the >> processor!) >> >> The software of an 8088 looks like 16 bit; the hardware of an 8088 looks >> an awful lot like 8 bit. There are people who consider the 8088 to be an >> 8-bit and consider the 8086 to be 15 bit, in spite of their >> "similarities". > > Yes, agreed 100% all around. > >> What do you consider 80386 to be? > > By what measure? ;) > >> how about the 80386-SX? It's hardware seems similar to 80286; what is >> THAT? > > Well that's an 80386 with a half-width data bus, much like the 8088 > is an 8086 with a half-width data bus. So...by what measure? ;) > >> What the hell is a "Celeron"? or a "Dragonball"? or an "Atom"? > > Well the Celeron being a Pentium, conventional wisdom says "32-bit". > Dragonball is a CPU32-core processor, whose ALU is 32-bits wide. But > the Dragonball (at least the 68EZ328 variant, the last one I designed > with) has a 16-bit data bus! So...which is it? 16 or 32? > > (sorry, I know zero about the Atom, can't comment there but would > welcome some knowledge) When I did my computer science degree (1971-4) it was the largest addressable item of main storage (core back then). By that definition the early IBM PC was 8 bit and so were machines like the Victor. Personally I don't really care as long as you compare like with like. What rankled with me back in the 80s was that machines with 8 bit data busses and 16 bit registers were being described as 16 bit when at the same time the 16 bit data bus machines with 32 bit registers like the Lisa and Mac were also being described as 16 bit. Apple played by the rules when every one else's marketing people lied their heads off. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri May 7 13:35:20 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 19:35:20 +0100 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 May 2010, at 08:25, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 06 May 2010 16:06:37 -0700 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Servant .953 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <4BE34B7D.6060902 at bitsavers.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 5/6/10 2:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Al Kossow wrote: >>>> I am interviewing Andy Hertzfeld tomorrow, and had hoped to talk about >>>> Servant, but I can't find a copy of it around anywhere tonight. > > A huge thank you to Nigel Williams who forwarded a working copy of .951 five > minutes before Bill and Andy arrived. We spent an hour talking about MacPaint > and Quickdraw (Apple has finally given CHM approval to make the sources available) > then another hour on Alice, Dali Clock, Servant, Hypercard, and Magic Cap. Could you please clarify, the QuickDraw source is available for what purpose? Could developers modify it any include it in heir commercial 64 bit Intel applications for instance? Is the source Pascal, Assembler, C or something else? Roger Holmes, Director of Microspot who has a Carbon application which compiles with over 10,000 warnings about deprecated QuickDraw calls. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 7 13:48:07 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuickDraw source code was Re: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: from Roger Holmes at "May 7, 10 07:35:20 pm" Message-ID: <201005071848.o47Im7OR012900@floodgap.com> > > A huge thank you to Nigel Williams who forwarded a working copy of .951 > > five minutes before Bill and Andy arrived. We spent an hour talking about > > MacPaint and Quickdraw (Apple has finally given CHM approval to make the > > sources available) then another hour on Alice, Dali Clock, Servant, > > Hypercard, and Magic Cap. > > Could you please clarify, the QuickDraw source is available for what > purpose? Yes! I would also like to know! That would be fabulous. > Is the source Pascal, Assembler, C or something else? I bet assembler with some Pascal. I know Andy did a lot of work tuning it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When you're in it up to your ears, keep your mouth shut. ------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 7 13:54:18 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 11:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning oftheend for floppies) In-Reply-To: <005101caee0b$e4eb7e90$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> from Andrew Burton at "May 7, 10 06:35:04 pm" Message-ID: <201005071854.o47IsI6O012858@floodgap.com> > Yeah, I love Abby too. I particularly like the hippo toy she has (I'm sure > you know why) and some of Abby's weird moments - the 'rearranging her > thoughts' moment in the current season has to be one of her best moments. > She is always a very sexy (whether dressed in her normal goth outfits or > costume party outfits). I have been a fan of NCIS from season 1. Abby is great, but my favourite character overall is either Ziva or DiNozzo. Michael Weatherly has really made the role his own. Essentially he's playing a frat boy with a badge, but he's really good at it. > The Last Starfighter was excellent, except for the enemy fighters all being > nicely lined up at the end of the film. That was such a disappointment. They > get one of the best pilots in the universe and when anyone would have done > in that situation! > Did that arcade really exist? If not, has anyone tried to make one? There were stories around about the mockup. I bet Curt knows. > Since they haven't been mentioned yet, I would like to throw in the > following films: [...] > The Black Hole (Maxamillion is scary as...) I was always impressed with the visual effects in The Black Hole, especially since they were largely done before the age of computerized motion control. Unfortunately, the movie was too experimental and the acting was uneven, and it wasn't really a good fit for Disney since they didn't know what to do with it. TRON suffered many of the same problems. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When you don't know what you're doing, do it neatly. ----------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 14:33:00 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3B015.7070107@neurotica.com> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE3B015.7070107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100507122715.S24632@shell.lmi.net> > > Who are the "learned"? On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well specifically, people like us, who actually know how computers work. We do not control the industry, nor the lexicography of it. > > What do you consider 80386 to be? > By what measure? ;) EXACTLY. The chip is referred to by a single numeric measure, yet there is very little agreement on what should be measured. "Everybody who knows anything will measure it the way that I do!" From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 14:39:54 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 12:39:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BE3C02B.9020405@neurotica.com> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk><605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BE3C02B.9020405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100507123846.M24632@shell.lmi.net> > > PS. AND NO TIME TRAVEL !!! . . . but, without time travel, how will John Titor go home? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 7 14:57:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:57:50 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100507122715.S24632@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE3B015.7070107@neurotica.com> <20100507122715.S24632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4395AF9C-C7DB-4B3C-AA37-6CD56AFE97FF@neurotica.com> On May 7, 2010, at 3:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Well specifically, people like us, who actually know how >> computers work. > > We do not control the industry, nor the lexicography of it. Really? Then who does? We ALL shape this industry. We're not just passengers here. >>> What do you consider 80386 to be? >> By what measure? ;) > > EXACTLY. > The chip is referred to by a single numeric measure, yet there is very > little agreement on what should be measured. "Everybody who knows > anything will measure it the way that I do!" Yep. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 7 15:03:55 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100507122715.S24632@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 7, 10 12:33:00 pm" Message-ID: <201005072003.o47K3uLP007846@floodgap.com> > > Well specifically, people like us, who actually know how computers work. > > We do not control the industry, nor the lexicography of it. I'll be happy if we just control the hagiography of it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- PowerPC inside! ------------------------------------------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 7 14:54:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 20:54:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 7, 10 00:21:25 am Message-ID: > > On 5/6/2010 12:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Is the IBM PC > > 8 bit (width of the data bus) or 16 bit? > > 16-bit. Until the day I die. > > I thought it was proper practice to note a CPU based on the size of it's > internal registers and/or the number of bits that can be changed in a > single operation. Ah, so the 8080, Z80 and 6809 are all 16 bit processors, then? They all have machine instructiosn that can change all the bits in a 16-bit register. Is the 68000 a 32 bit processor? Is the HP NUT (used in the HP41 and Voyager series) a 56 bit processor (bit-serial, but with 56 bit registers). Is the HP Saturn (used in the HP71B and many later calculators) a 64 bit processor ? (4 bit ALU, 64 bit registers) I don't beleive the 'number of bits' of a processor is precisely defined. It may well depend on what aspect you are lookign at... > Is someone seriously challenging that the IBM PC 5150 wasn't a 16-bit > computer? Well, I only see an 8 bit databus on the schematics... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 7 14:57:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 20:57:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 7, 10 00:38:56 am Message-ID: > > On 5/7/2010 12:34 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Well you've got to admit, it does depend on how you look at it. The 8088 > > has an 8-bit data bus and it does two bus cycles to move a 16-bit value. > > You know...just like an 8080. ;) > > Well, the 8080 can't do a 16-bit by 16-bit multiply to get a 32-bit > product, so that's an obvious difference. Actually just about any processor can multiply 2 arbitrarily-long numbers. You just ahve to write a subroutine for it. But I assume you mean 'as a single machine instruction'. So the bit-width of a processor is the size of the multiplicand or multiplier reigster? WHat if there are difference sizes? And what about processors with no multiply instruciton? Do you consider the Z80 to be a 0-bit procressor? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 7 14:37:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 20:37:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: seeking DEC VT100-style keyboard keycaps SETUP and NOSCROLL In-Reply-To: from "Nigel Williams" at May 7, 10 11:29:21 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:09 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > (Aside: on powerup it promptly had conniptions and also needs parts for > > the > > > PSU - fortunately easy to find at our local electronics store). > > > > What fialed? Isn't this a swticher? If the chopper transistor has failed > > (and it did in a couple of VT100s here),, you need to check surrounding > > components (particularly low-value resisotrs) too. > > > > yes a switcher, more pictures here including the exploded/over-stressed > metallised polyester capacitor, which was across the mains: Ah, an antisocial mains filter capacitor. It happens... IIRC there are several classes of such capacitors. One type is designed to go across the mains, the otehr type (which cannot fail shorted) is designed to go from one side of the mains to ground. I think they're 'X' and 'Y2' respectively. But you need ot check. Remember it's the AC voltage rating that matters. A capacitor rated at 250V DC sill not stand European mains. > > http://picasaweb.google.com.au/109027456703228169358/20100504DECGIGI# > > someone on IRC mentioned that this Aztec PSU is very similar to the one in > the Apple /// SMPSUs tend to be bought-in, and similar designs turn up in various manufactueres products. Even when the supply was a custom design, often the circuitry is similar in various models (for example the Boschert PSU used in some HP mass storage units is electronically very similar ot the Boschert PSU used in the HP120) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 7 14:49:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 20:49:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3A26A.3070708@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 7, 10 00:17:30 am Message-ID: > >>> I still stand my my statement that the master clock rate is meaningless. > >> > >> Laws of physics disagree with you for sufficiently high orders of magnitude. > > > > Care to explain? I can't think of a single law of physics that prohibits > > using as many clock cylces as I want for a particular operaiton. In which > > case, an 8MHz RISC processor which takes 1 cycle for a given operation > > could be a lot faster than a 1GHz processor what happens to take 256 > > cycles for the same operation. > > Except that there has never been a CPU built to run over 1GHz where a > given operation takes 256 cycles to execute. That is not a law of physics. If you want to claim that a 2GHz (or whatever) Pentium (or whatecer) is faster than a 4MHz Z80A then you'll get no arguments. But that is not the question. > > If you're comparing 1982 processors to 1982 processors, then yes, we > could have a spirited discussion about 6809 vs. 6502 vs. z80 vs. 8086 > vs. 68000. But this is 2010. And this is classiccmp. Do youu seriously believe that a 33MHz 80386-based PC (which were popular many uears ago) has the same processor speed as my PDP11/45 (which happens to hace a 33MHz master clock crystal) ? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 7 14:44:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 20:44:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <99D3ED7451844E818FB95EFC2B83B736@Edicons.local> from "RodSmallwood" at May 7, 10 05:57:02 am Message-ID: > > Most of us who went to school here in England would not only know how the Well I certianly couldn't (thankfully). When other boys were chasing a ball around i nthe grass I was doing something much more interesting. Namely making my first homebrew computer. > scoring works but could explain how to play. I have a thirty year old son If this list starts discussing such activities, I am leaving. Period. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 7 14:40:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 20:40:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: seeking DEC VT100-style keyboard keycaps SETUP and NOSCROLL In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 6, 10 06:56:41 pm Message-ID: > > > > Hi > > I've seen that type of keyboard before. I'd been looking for > > Canon Cat key switches for a friend. It wasn't the Cat though. > > I think these are the same as the H89 Heathkit uses. I could Yes. That keyboard design turns up in (at least) : TRS-80 Model 1 (early version) DEC VT50-seires, Vt100-series terminals HP262x terminals HP9816 (compact keyboard) HP80-series (including the 9915) TI99/4a > > be wrong but it is worth a look. You may not get a matching > > text but at least it may give one a key to hit. My HP9816 came without the left shift key. Raiding my junk box (!) I found a 'spare' VT52 keyboard PCB. The left shift key from that was the wrong style and wrong colour, but it was the right size. So I fitted it. If I ever manage to find the correct key I can swap it back, and until then, I have somethign I can press. -tony > > Dwight > > =20 > > Date: Fri=2C 7 May 2010 11:29:21 +1000 > > Subject: Re: seeking DEC VT100-style keyboard keycaps SETUP and NOSCROLL > > From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >=20 > > On Fri=2C May 7=2C 2010 at 4:09 AM=2C Tony Duell > wrote: > >=20 > > > > (Aside: on powerup it promptly had conniptions and also needs parts f= > or > > > the > > > > PSU - fortunately easy to find at our local electronics store). > > > > > > What fialed? Isn't this a swticher? If the chopper transistor has faile= > d > > > (and it did in a couple of VT100s here)=2C=2C you need to check surroun= > ding > > > components (particularly low-value resisotrs) too. > > > > >=20 > > yes a switcher=2C more pictures here including the exploded/over-stressed > > metallised polyester capacitor=2C which was across the mains: > >=20 > > http://picasaweb.google.com.au/109027456703228169358/20100504DECGIGI# > >=20 > > someone on IRC mentioned that this Aztec PSU is very similar to the one i= > n > > the Apple /// > =20 > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search=2C chat and e-mail from your inbox= > . > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=3DPID28326::T:WLMTAGL:O= > N:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3= > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 15:10:00 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep WOW! Are you saying that Apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN? Or are you saying that the earliest versions of FORTRAN were based on Valtrep? If so, you should be aware that FORTRAN was in heavy active use in the 1960s, rather long before your 1980s experiences with Valtrep. NO. Valtrep may have made some nice improvements, but they were never part of the original creation of FORTRAN. > I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the 80s > yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. Yes, RATHER. FORTRAN was well on to its DECLINE in usage by then. > it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do valtrep. > Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep is quite useless it seems... Oh, I don't know, that guy "transnet" has some interesting ideas :-) From RichA at vulcan.com Fri May 7 15:22:59 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:22:59 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 1:10 PM > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep > WOW! > Are you saying that Apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN? > Or are you saying that the earliest versions of FORTRAN were based on > Valtrep? If so, you should be aware that FORTRAN was in heavy active use > in the 1960s, rather long before your 1980s experiences with Valtrep. > NO. Valtrep may have made some nice improvements, but they were never > part of the original creation of FORTRAN. I certainly understood Dan to be saying the former. >> I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the 80s >> yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. > Yes, RATHER. > FORTRAN was well on to its DECLINE in usage by then. That would come as a serious surprise to my friend Ivor Philips, who worked on the Fortran 90 and Fortran 95 standards committees, as well as writing the book (ok, one of 3 co-authors) on Fortran 90, and being interested in F. As well as the Boeing engineers he supported as one of the theoretical mathematicians at that company... (I won't mention the shocked look I got from engineers here when I showed them your statement.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 15:30:18 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100507132747.K26653@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: > When I did my computer science degree (1971-4) it was the largest > addressable item of main storage (core back then). By that definition > the early IBM PC was 8 bit and so were machines like the Victor. That was a defensible definition, while it lasted. > Personally I don't really care as long as you compare like with like. > What rankled with me back in the 80s was that machines with 8 bit data > busses and 16 bit registers were being described as 16 bit when at the > same time the 16 bit data bus machines with 32 bit registers like the > Lisa and Mac were also being described as 16 bit. Apple played by the > rules when every one else's marketing people lied their heads off. While there were others who abused the nomenclature even more, I remember an Apple employee taking offense when I referred to the 68000 as "the best currently available 16 bit processor". From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 15:33:17 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4395AF9C-C7DB-4B3C-AA37-6CD56AFE97FF@neurotica.com> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE3B015.7070107@neurotica.com> <20100507122715.S24632@shell.lmi.net> <4395AF9C-C7DB-4B3C-AA37-6CD56AFE97FF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100507133048.K26653@shell.lmi.net> > >> Well specifically, people like us, who actually know how > >> computers work. > > We do not control the industry, nor the lexicography of it. On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Really? Then who does? We ALL shape this industry. We're not > just passengers here. Do you really think that we can successfully correct the meaning of "hackers"? There are a few too many passengers who ought to be cargo or jettisoned, steering things. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 7 15:38:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 16:38:46 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100507133048.K26653@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE3B015.7070107@neurotica.com> <20100507122715.S24632@shell.lmi.net> <4395AF9C-C7DB-4B3C-AA37-6CD56AFE97FF@neurotica.com> <20100507133048.K26653@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On May 7, 2010, at 4:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> We do not control the industry, nor the lexicography of it. > > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Really? Then who does? We ALL shape this industry. We're not >> just passengers here. > > Do you really think that we can successfully correct the meaning of > "hackers"? Probably not, thanks to the media. The media doesn't often get involved in processor bit width, though, at least nowhere near to the level as it had with "hackers". > There are a few too many passengers who ought to be cargo or > jettisoned, > steering things. Agreed 100%. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 7 15:49:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 16:49:45 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3C399.30803@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE3C399.30803@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <87D18818-5E13-42AD-89C7-F0BA225518E3@neurotica.com> On May 7, 2010, at 3:39 AM, Holger Veit wrote: >> Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? > > Yes, as it just determines overall system performance, cf the > 68000/68008/68010/68020 > family. Generally speaking, I have to agree here. Many systems are moving to very high-speed bit-serial buses as speed requirements increase. Sure you take a big bandwidth hit moving from, say, 16-bit-wide SCSI to FibreChannel or SAS for example (both of which are essentially SCSI on a high-speed serial bus) but the bit rate has been increased to FAR beyond what's required to negate that hit. This is being done primarily to sidestep signal skew problems, which become very difficult to deal with at bit rates approaching the low hundreds of MHz. This same thing has happened to system buses, with PCIe and HyperTransport. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 7 15:52:43 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 16:52:43 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: If you actually READ the email instead of making immature remarks, maybe you'd learn something. I didn't say apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN or even implied anything like that. (that would be quite impossible). Don't make stupid comments especially if you don't read the mssage. You say my 1980s experiences with Valtrep were long after Fortran was well established and into the decline? Say it isn't so batman! what is this alternate universe we live in!? oh, and your comment that Valtrep had some nice improvements on the original creation of Fortran is just plain stupid. Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran, or didn't you read my message so you could understand that. Guess not. Fortran may have been in heavy use since the 1960s (actually it's probably more like the mid to late 70s, but whatever), but Valtrep was actually developed and used long before that. Just because some company was still using Valtrep in the 1980s doesn't make it newer you know. Many companies use products and technologies that haven't been developed or wide use in decades... I have no idea who this "transnet" guy is, maybe you can ask him, maybe he'll be nicer than I am. In any case, the predecessor to Fortran was Valtrep. Not all such technology has survived. Someone months ago on this list talked about reviving a Cyber/Prime, but we never did hear about the result if it ever got finished... Dan. > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:10:00 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep > > WOW! > Are you saying that Apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN? > > > Or are you saying that the earliest versions of FORTRAN were based on > Valtrep? If so, you should be aware that FORTRAN was in heavy active use > in the 1960s, rather long before your 1980s experiences with Valtrep. > NO. Valtrep may have made some nice improvements, but they were never > part of the original creation of FORTRAN. > > > > I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the 80s > > yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. > > Yes, RATHER. > > FORTRAN was well on to its DECLINE in usage by then. > > > it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do valtrep. > > Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep is quite useless it seems... > > Oh, I don't know, that guy "transnet" has some interesting ideas :-) > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729707 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 16:21:55 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100507135804.D26653@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > If you actually READ the email instead of making immature remarks, maybe > you'd learn something. I was far from the only one to notice multiple possible interpretations of the meaning of your statement. See Rich Alderson's post, where he advances points disputing both your and my posts. I asked for a clarification; is that immature in your judgement? What is the cause of your ad-hominem attacks? Are you insecure about requests for clarification? Or are you still mad about some people saying that email was NOT invented in the 1980s? > I didn't say apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN or > even implied anything like that. (that would be quite impossible). Don't > make stupid comments especially if you don't read the mssage. Again, I was not the only one to notice that possible interpretation of your remarks. > You say my 1980s experiences with Valtrep were long after Fortran was > well established and into the decline? > Say it isn't so batman! what is this alternate universe we live in!? The PEAK usage of FORTRAN was in the mid to late 1970s. By the mid 1980s, FORTRAN was arguably in a decline of USAGE (I certainly did NOT say that there was any decline in usability!), having passed its peak usage, but was certainly the system of choice for many important works. It was, however, by that time, being used less for things for which it was not the most appropriate, since there were more choices available, and many who had used FORTRAN when it was not the best for the task had switched to APL, BASIC, C, Pascal, etc. as being more specific for their paerticular needs. FORTRAN remained the tool of choice for scientific programming, and its total USAGE had declined as business, calculator, interactive, and systems programming added other tools. > oh, and your comment that Valtrep had some nice improvements on the > original creation of Fortran is just plain stupid. > > Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran, or didn't you read my message so > you could understand that. Guess not. Are you equally upset with EVERYBODY who mininterpreted your ambiguous message? Such as Rich Alderson. > Fortran may have been in heavy use since the 1960s (actually it's > probably more like the mid to late 70s, but whatever), FORTRAN was in heavy usage in the late 1960s, even if you weren't involved at that point. That was before it started having significant amounts of competition from APL, BASIC, etc. I didn't get involved with FORTRAN until 1965, so I missed the early days. > but Valtrep was actually developed and used long before that. > Just because some company was still using Valtrep in the 1980s doesn't make it newer you know. > Many companies use products and technologies that haven't been developed or wide use in decades... > > I have no idea who this "transnet" guy is, maybe you can ask him, maybe > he'll be nicer than I am. http://www.keyongtech.com/4601529-anyone-for-help-with-dec/2 "I was using Valtrep in 1986 on a Sentry-70. Valtrep has been called the predecessor to Fortran." Strange. A fellow with the same first name as yours working at some of the sme places, doing the same things, and you never met him? Which one of you wrote "Castle"? > In any case, the predecessor to Fortran was Valtrep. Not all such > technology has survived. Why are so few people aware of Valtrep's role as "the predecessor to FORTRAN" > Someone months ago on this list talked about reviving a Cyber/Prime, but > we never did hear about the result if it ever got finished... > > Dan. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com [The following is left untrimmed, due to accusation of misquoting] > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:10:00 -0700 > > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > > > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep > > > > WOW! > > Are you saying that Apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN? > > > > > > Or are you saying that the earliest versions of FORTRAN were based on > > Valtrep? If so, you should be aware that FORTRAN was in heavy active use > > in the 1960s, rather long before your 1980s experiences with Valtrep. > > NO. Valtrep may have made some nice improvements, but they were never > > part of the original creation of FORTRAN. > > > > > > > I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the 80s > > > yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. > > > > Yes, RATHER. > > > > FORTRAN was well on to its DECLINE in usage by then. > > > > > it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do valtrep. > > > Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep is quite useless it seems... > > > > Oh, I don't know, that guy "transnet" has some interesting ideas :-) > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729707 From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 16:30:43 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 14:30:43 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE3C399.30803@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: , <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net>, <4BE3C399.30803@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <4BE42413.3484.1248262@cclist.sydex.com> Trying to find a universal way of classifying processors seems to me to be an exercise in folly, akin to angels dancing on the head of a pin. The PB-250 had a one-bit data bus and a 22 bit word length. A PPU on a CDC 6000 series machine has 12-bit words but an 18-bit accumulator. The CDC STAR had 64-bit registers, but a 644-bit (IIRC) data bus. The eZ80 has an 8-bit data bus, 24-bit registers with a 24-bit addressing space and can performa a 16x16 multiply with a 32-bit product, yet it runs Z80 code. --Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri May 7 16:26:27 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 16:26:27 -0500 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100507162324.0c3a7370@localhost> At 12:24 AM 5/7/2010 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 7 May 2010, Ben wrote: > >>Jim Leonard wrote: >>>On 5/6/2010 12:05 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >>>>I have seen every Star Trek film and TV show. I could never get into >>>>DSN and >>>>the last ST TV series (can't recall it's name). Voyager is one of my >>>>favourites. >>>If you can't remember the name of the "Enterprise" series, have you >>>really seen every Star Trek TV show? >>>They were indeed terrible. When the best episode of the entire series is >>>a ST:TNG throwback, using ST:TNG actors, and it's the LAST episode of >>>the entire series, you know you've really screwed up. >> >>Bring back Captain Pike, I loved the pilot film of classic Star Trek. >>The idea of space travel taking weeks or months , relative time to the >>Space Craft, I think would have made for better stories would have more >>time to develop a plot and character viewpoints. >>Ben. >>PS. AND NO TIME TRAVEL !!! > >I'd like to see a good attempt made to bring "Hyperion" to the bigscreen. >That one had some good thinking about the impact of time-dilation. You mean the Dan Simmons novels? A.k.a War and Peace and war and peace and peace and war and war and peace and war and peace and.... Never happen. Not everyone has the patience to read those tomes, and making a movie of it would probably involve one incident of the story. But at least the AI liked it. ----- 45. [Computing] The fact that it works is immaterial. --L. Ogborn --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 7 16:57:32 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:57:32 +0100 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <005e01caee30$4ce298c0$e6a7ca40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I can't say I have ever heard of Valtrep before and my attempts at searching the web do not reveal any definitive information. What definitive information do you have on Valtrep to say that it predates FORTRAN? FORTRAN dates back to the 1950s. Regards Rob PS I think personal attacks have no place on this list. If someone has misinterpreted what you say, then explain what you meant, because it is always possible that you might not have been clear the first time. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Gahlinger > Sent: 07 May 2010 21:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > > If you actually READ the email instead of making immature remarks, > maybe you'd learn something. > > I didn't say apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN or > even implied anything like that. (that would be quite impossible). > Don't make stupid comments especially if you don't read the mssage. > > You say my 1980s experiences with Valtrep were long after Fortran was > well established and into the decline? > Say it isn't so batman! what is this alternate universe we live in!? > > oh, and your comment that Valtrep had some nice improvements on the > original creation of Fortran is just plain stupid. > > Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran, or didn't you read my message so > you could understand that. Guess not. > > Fortran may have been in heavy use since the 1960s (actually it's > probably more like the mid to late 70s, but whatever), > but Valtrep was actually developed and used long before that. > > Just because some company was still using Valtrep in the 1980s doesn't > make it newer you know. > Many companies use products and technologies that haven't been > developed or wide use in decades... > > I have no idea who this "transnet" guy is, maybe you can ask him, maybe > he'll be nicer than I am. > > In any case, the predecessor to Fortran was Valtrep. Not all such > technology has survived. > Someone months ago on this list talked about reviving a Cyber/Prime, > but we never did hear about the result if it ever got finished... > > Dan. > > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:10:00 -0700 > > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > > > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep > > > > WOW! > > Are you saying that Apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa > FORTRAN? > > > > > > Or are you saying that the earliest versions of FORTRAN were based on > > Valtrep? If so, you should be aware that FORTRAN was in heavy active > use > > in the 1960s, rather long before your 1980s experiences with Valtrep. > > NO. Valtrep may have made some nice improvements, but they were > never > > part of the original creation of FORTRAN. > > > > > > > I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the > 80s > > > yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. > > > > Yes, RATHER. > > > > FORTRAN was well on to its DECLINE in usage by then. > > > > > it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do > valtrep. > > > Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep is quite useless it > seems... > > > > Oh, I don't know, that guy "transnet" has some interesting ideas :-) > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729707= From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 7 17:01:53 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 15:01:53 -0700 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE48DD1.3020302@bitsavers.org> On 5/7/10 11:35 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > > Could developers modify it any include it in heir commercial 64 bit Intel applications It was made available by Apple only for non-commerical educational use. It is written in 68K assembly language. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 7 17:08:02 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 15:08:02 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org> On 5/7/10 1:52 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran Would you please point me to documentation for this language prior to the Fortran document of November, 1954 http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 17:08:26 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net> > >> Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep > > WOW! > > Are you saying that Apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN? > > Or are you saying that the earliest versions of FORTRAN were based on > > Valtrep? If so, you should be aware that FORTRAN was in heavy active use > > in the 1960s, rather long before your 1980s experiences with Valtrep. > > NO. Valtrep may have made some nice improvements, but they were never > > part of the original creation of FORTRAN. On Fri, 7 May 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: > I certainly understood Dan to be saying the former. . . . and yet he is furious at me for suggesting that there was a possibility that he might mean the former. > > FORTRAN was well on to its DECLINE in usage by then. > That would come as a serious surprise to my friend Ivor Philips, who > . . . > As well as the Boeing engineers he supported as one of the theoretical > . . . > (I won't mention the shocked look I got from engineers here when I showed > them your statement.) I should have given more emphasis to USAGE. FORTRAN is still used, and is still the best tool for SOME things. But, in the early days, it was also being used for many things that it was NOT ideal for. Bob Wallace used it for setting up a computer dating system! (User 0 (Bob) got a suspiciously disproportionate number of matches!) I maintain that a higher percentage of computer users used FORTRAN in the 1970s than the percentage of computer users who used FORTRAN in the 1980s or 1990s. I believe that even the total number of users of FORTRAN 4 was higher than the total number of users of FORTRAN 77, due to increased competition from other languages in the particular subsets of FORTRAN usage that were better suited to other tools. But, in looking for historical statistics, you will be pleased to note that when I gave GOOGLE a query of "How many people used FORTRAN", it CORRECTED me with "Did you mean: How many people _USE_ FORTRAN" Since my assertion of a decline in total usage after its peak is an unpopular one, I will look further to see what usage statistics are available. I taught beginning FORTRAN in the 1980s at Merritt College (community college), and would not mind doing it again, if we could get a quorum for the classes. COBOL is gone from our curriculum :-( RPG is gone from our curriculum :-) FORTRAN is gone from our curriculum :-( APL is gone from our curriculum :-( BASIC is gone from our curriculum :-( The administration has cancelled C The administration has cancelled C# The administration has cancelled ASM We are down to "Using Microsoft Office", "VISUAL BASIC", and C++ (slated for cancellation soon) The CIS departments are circling the drain. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 17:10:18 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Drive recovery In-Reply-To: References: <201003121227.o2CCRTjI022865@billY.EZWIND.NET>, , <201003121816.o2CIGfrU043175@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100507150952.W28926@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 12 Mar 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > As I said, if it at least runs, etc > > A lot of recovery places just run software like this and charge $1200 for something you could do yourself. > > You have to consider, is the data that important? enough to spend several hundred $ on, or perhaps even $1400 or more? > in most cases, it's not. > > my usb stick had data that was that important, the computer said the stick was unformatted. > RTT goes it all back very easily. > > You're best to find a place that will do a free estimate, to tell you what can be recovered and how much it'll cost you, > at least in cases where a drive is really far gone anyhow. > Dan. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 17:15:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 15:15:59 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE42EAF.11960.14DF355@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2010 at 15:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > I taught beginning FORTRAN in the 1980s at Merritt College (community > college), and would not mind doing it again, if we could get a quorum > for the classes. COBOL is gone from our curriculum :-( RPG is gone > from our curriculum :-) FORTRAN is gone from our curriculum :-( APL is > gone from our curriculum :-( BASIC is gone from our curriculum :-( The > administration has cancelled C The administration has cancelled C# The > administration has cancelled ASM We are down to "Using Microsoft > Office", "VISUAL BASIC", and C++ (slated for cancellation soon) I wonder if it's possible to find a copy of Valtrep for the IBM 709. I think it was all downhill after PL/I. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 17:16:24 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <005e01caee30$4ce298c0$e6a7ca40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> <005e01caee30$4ce298c0$e6a7ca40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20100507151106.O28926@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I can't say I have ever heard of Valtrep before and my attempts at searching > the web do not reveal any definitive information. The only immediate hits that came up on GOOGLE were somebody named Dan, in one place identified as "Transnet" mentioning that he used Valtrep on Stride-70 in 1986 and that it was the predecessor to FORTRAN. Dan says that he has no idea who that is. > What definitive information do you have on Valtrep to say that it > predates FORTRAN? FORTRAN dates back to the 1950s. 1954 Backus at IBM if I recall correctly. Google doesn't show any mention by Backus "written from scratch" of Valtrep, and, in fact NO mention of Valtrep by anybody not named "Dan". There were some HLLs before FORTRAN, but FORTRAN was the first "successful" one, and Backus did not give credit to Valtrep. > PS I think personal attacks have no place on this list. If someone has > misinterpreted what you say, then explain what you meant, because it is > always possible that you might not have been clear the first time. I can understand that it gets frustrating when people misinterpret ambiguous statements. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 7 17:34:19 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 17:34:19 -0500 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100507151106.O28926@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> <005e01caee30$4ce298c0$e6a7ca40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <20100507151106.O28926@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201005072234.o47MYNLE008935@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 05:16 PM 5/7/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >1954 Backus at IBM if I recall correctly. >Google doesn't show any mention by Backus "written from scratch" of >Valtrep, and, in fact NO mention of Valtrep by anybody not named "Dan". Googling with the single word in quotes helps filter: http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Valtrep%22 Yes, there aren't any relevant. But here's one. http://www.citeulike.org/group/162/article/269986 And "Dan" mentions "I was using Valtrep in 1986 on a Sentry-70. Valtrep has been called the predecessor to Fortran." http://www.keyongtech.com/4601529-anyone-for-help-with-dec/2 - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 7 17:41:57 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 16:41:57 -0600 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows & special effects In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100507162324.0c3a7370@localhost> References: <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20100507162324.0c3a7370@localhost> Message-ID: <4BE49735.1050305@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Peters wrote: > But at least the AI liked it. :) I am thinking at today special effects in terms of different alien life, could just manage C.J. Cherryh's Chanur series.[1] Plot re-writing is another story. Ben. PS. For Para-normal sp style shows, The animation from Japan 'El Cazador - De La Bruja' is quite fun. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 17:45:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE42EAF.11960.14DF355@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net> <4BE42EAF.11960.14DF355@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100507152143.B28926@shell.lmi.net> > > I taught beginning FORTRAN in the 1980s at Merritt College (community > > college), and would not mind doing it again, if we could get a quorum > > for the classes. COBOL is gone from our curriculum :-( RPG is gone > > from our curriculum :-) FORTRAN is gone from our curriculum :-( APL is > > gone from our curriculum :-( BASIC is gone from our curriculum :-( The > > administration has cancelled C The administration has cancelled C# The > > administration has cancelled ASM We are down to "Using Microsoft > > Office", "VISUAL BASIC", and C++ (slated for cancellation soon) On Fri, 7 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder if it's possible to find a copy of Valtrep for the IBM 709. FORTRAN was on the 704. (1954) Was Valtrep on the 701?? BTW, the 704, 709 had 38 bit accumulator and 36 bit quotient. So, back in the "good old days" we had "38 bit computers" :-) > I think it was all downhill after PL/I. Ahhhhhh. Different languages have different characteristics. I believe that BASIC is the best language for a student's very first exposure to computers ("Get the computer to put your name on the screen" with very little frustration.) PASCAL was good for building discipline and self-control. C was great AFTER a student had develope self-control and discipline. Therefore, what sequence do you think the educational institutions follow? "What sequence do you think the educational institutions follow?", NOT "What sequence do you think the educational institutions SHOULD follow?" But most of us came in through other paths. "How can anybody claim to know anything about computers when they haven't been working in machine language?" "COBOL is the heart of Data Processing" "Nothing compares with APL for doing your calculations" Dijkstra: The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense. APL is a mistake, carried through to perfection. It is the language of the future for the programming techniques of the past: it creates a new generation of coding bums. FORTRAN, 'the infantile disorder', by now nearly 20 years old, is hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today: it is now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use. In the good old days physicists repeated each other's experiments, just to be sure. Today they stick to FORTRAN, so that they can share each other's programs, bugs included. It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 18:18:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 16:18:22 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100507152143.B28926@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4BE42EAF.11960.14DF355@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100507152143.B28926@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE43D4E.8108.18712DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2010 at 15:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > FORTRAN was on the 704. (1954) 704/709, very similar, but you're right--the 704 FORTRAN was first, the 709 didn't escape until 1958. > Dijkstra: > The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be > regarded as a criminal offense. APL is a mistake, carried through to > perfection. It is the language of the future for the programming > techniques of the past: it creates a new generation of coding bums. > FORTRAN, 'the infantile disorder', by now nearly 20 years old, is > hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in > mind today: it is now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use. > In the good old days physicists repeated each other's experiments, > just to be sure. Today they stick to FORTRAN, so that they can share > each other's programs, bugs included. It is practically impossible to > teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to > BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond > hope of regeneration. Yet, Edsgar is dead and Fortran (with F90, lowercase "Fortran" was endorsed by X3J3 as an alternate spelling) is still going strong. As far as his criticism of BASIC, it depends on what one calls "BASIC". Visual BASIC is far, far from Kemeny and Kurtz, but there's always "True BASIC" http://truebasic.com/ which is still pretty distant from Dartmouth BASIC. I wonder if FORTRAN/Fortran programmers speak better assembly than Perl programmers do? --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 7 13:58:48 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 19:58:48 +0100 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning oftheend for floppies) References: , , <4BE3E80C.14068.3A069D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00bf01caee3c$44356980$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 6:14 PM Subject: Re: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning oftheend for floppies) > On 7 May 2010 at 10:04, Jason McBrien wrote: > > > My favorites (on-topic as they are OLD!): > > I liked some original "Twilight Zone" episodes. "Science Fiction > Theatre" and "The Outer Limits" could be unbelievably awful. Was > there ever an episode of SFT that dealt with computers? > Which "The Outer Limits", the 60's original series or the 90's one? I personally loved the 90's one, and haven't seen the 60's one (though my dad has them on DVD or VHS). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 7 14:12:10 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 20:12:10 +0100 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk><605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com><4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk><005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa><4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca><005001caee0b$e2990310$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <00c301caee3c$4f4aefc0$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 7:24 PM Subject: Re: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) > On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > Not heard of those shows (ok, I know Stingray, as in Gerry Andersons > > creation...). I am curious when Junkyard Wars was made. We have a show here > > in the UK called Scrapheap Challenge which sounds very much similar (2 > > teams > > compete to build a contraption to accomplish a specific task), and is > > hosted > > by Robert Llewellyn (Kryten from Red Dwarf). > > > > Junkyard Wars is the same show as Scrapheap Challenge. They made some > US-specific episodes, but most were made in the UK. It ended somewhere > around 2006-2007, though I understand it's still in production in the UK. I think it is still made. I haven't seen it for ages myself though. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 7 16:14:02 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:14:02 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org><4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org><4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net><4BE3B015.7070107@neurotica.com> <20100507122715.S24632@shell.lmi.net><4395AF9C-C7DB-4B3C-AA37-6CD56AFE97FF@neurotica.com> <20100507133048.K26653@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00c501caee3c$5649dc50$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 9:33 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof > > Do you really think that we can successfully correct the meaning of > "hackers"? About as much chance as correcting the modern mis-informed erm... non-geeks about the terms billion and trillion. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 7 19:03:32 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 01:03:32 +0100 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100507162324.0c3a7370@localhost> References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.1.0.14.2.20100507162324.0c3a7370@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:26 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > At 12:24 AM 5/7/2010 -0700, you wrote: >> I'd like to see a good attempt made to bring "Hyperion" to the bigscreen. >> That one had some good thinking about the impact of time-dilation. > > You mean the Dan Simmons novels? A.k.a War and Peace and war and peace and > peace and war and war and peace and war and peace and.... > > Never happen. Not everyone has the patience to read those tomes, and making > a movie of it would probably involve one incident of the story. I read 'em all, cover-to-cover, twice. Fantastic stuff. Never yet read a duff book by Dan Simmons, even the non-SF stuff. The strange Iliad-themed stuff was odd & occasionally hard work, but still good. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 7 19:19:44 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 01:19:44 +0100 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > If you actually READ the email instead of making immature remarks, maybe you'd learn something. > > I didn't say apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN or even implied anything like that. (that would be quite impossible). Don't make stupid comments especially if you don't read the mssage. > > You say my 1980s experiences with Valtrep were long after Fortran was well established and into the decline? > Say it isn't so batman! what is this alternate universe we live in!? > > oh, and your comment that Valtrep had some nice improvements on the original creation of Fortran is just plain stupid. > > Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran, or didn't you read my message so you could understand that. Guess not. > > Fortran may have been in heavy use since the 1960s (actually it's probably more like the mid to late 70s, but whatever), > but Valtrep was actually developed and used long before that. > > Just because some company was still using Valtrep in the 1980s doesn't make it newer you know. > Many companies use products and technologies that haven't been developed or wide use in decades... > > I have no idea who this "transnet" guy is, maybe you can ask him, maybe he'll be nicer than I am. > > In any case, the predecessor to Fortran was Valtrep. Not all such technology has survived. > Someone months ago on this list talked about reviving a Cyber/Prime, but we never did hear about the result if it ever got finished... > > Dan. I've read this, and the rest of the thread, and I'm sorry, but subject to you presenting us with some pretty remarkable evidence, I think that you don't know what you're talking about. Apart from some very primitive assembler-style systems, FORTRAN was the world's first high-level programming language of any kind, followed some years later by COBOL. FORTRAN's planning dates back to the early 1950s and it was implemented and running by the late 1950s. It *had* no significant predecessors in a form that would really be recognised as a high-level programming language today; before FORTRAN, the best there was were some coding systems for simplifying the representation of mathematical or arithmetical operations for input into the primitive computers of the time. *You*, Dan, may have first met FORTRAN in the 1970s, and maybe the systems you were using had a predecessor called Valtrep that virtually nobody else has ever heard about - but in computer terms, FORTRAN was already a venerable grey-bearded ancient by then. Sir, you are wrong. Completely and utterly plain dead wrong. If you can present evidence that you are not mistaken, then you will re-write the history of computing and of the development of programming languages, so I urge you to do so if you can. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Fri May 7 19:31:26 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 17:31:26 -0700 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 Message-ID: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> eBay item number: 320522921808 This is one of John's original hand-built machines. Details in the auction. It's at $6,400 now. I personally expect that to more than triple by the end, but that's just me. :) Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From andreww591 at gmail.com Fri May 7 19:46:41 2010 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 18:46:41 -0600 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting In-Reply-To: <01NMK73Q0LXEQ3YGA4@vms.eurokom.ie> References: <01NMK73Q0LXEQ3YGA4@vms.eurokom.ie> Message-ID: <4BE4B471.3090805@gmail.com> Peter Coghlan wrote: > > I would suggest reseating the CPU module and removing any PCI cards present. > (I have an Alphaserver 800 which became a complete brick while a combination > of PCI cards were present that it didn't like.) If there are any EISA cards > present, I would leave them in place because there may be issues with the > config utility that has to be run when the EISA bus configuration is > modified. Other than that, I suggest trying the system with just the bare > essentials present and seeing what happens. > I think that I tried reseating the CPU card a while ago, and it didn't fix the problem. I also tried removing all the PCI cards, and that also did nothing. I'll try removing all of the RAM and PCI cards, and reseating the CPU card again, and see if that does anything. > It would be useful to know if the fans start. Fan problems on some alphas > cause the whole thing to shut down. Also, there is an interlock microswitch > to prevent power up when the cover is open. This is probably not the problem > here though as the symptoms are as if the front panel power switch is off. > Yes, all of the fans start. If one of the case fans is disconnected, the system powers up for a second and then completely shuts off. Tony Duell wrote: > I'm going to ask the obvious : Have you vhecked the output voltages from > the PSU and the state of the power_OK line (if there is one, I suspect > there is)? > > -tony > It has an extra power supply installed, so the only way it could be a power supply problem is if both have failed. I can disconnect either power supply, and nothing changes. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 20:33:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 18:33:11 -0700 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning oftheend for floppies) In-Reply-To: <00bf01caee3c$44356980$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> References: , <00bf01caee3c$44356980$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BE45CE7.30275.2027FEA@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2010 at 19:58, Andrew Burton wrote: > I personally loved the 90's one, and haven't seen the 60's one (though > my dad has them on DVD or VHS). The original ones, of course. Many of the 90's episodes are poorly- remade versions of the originals. Playhouse 90 also had some very good content. Unfortunately, everything today seems to be in series form. None of the single-episode stories like you'd see on "Alfred Hitchcock Presents". The very difficult art of the short story. Some magnificent writing went into those. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 7 20:36:18 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 18:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning oftheend for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BE45CE7.30275.2027FEA@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "May 7, 10 06:33:11 pm" Message-ID: <201005080136.o481aIMw016272@floodgap.com> > Unfortunately, everything today seems to be in series form. None of > the single-episode stories like you'd see on "Alfred Hitchcock > Presents". The very difficult art of the short story. I would say that went out the window when the general anthology format did. The new trend is story arcs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Must have been the collard greens that made me lose control! -- "In the Mix" From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Fri May 7 20:45:39 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 21:45:39 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) Message-ID: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Al wrote: > On 5/7/10 1:52 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran > Would you please point me to documentation for this language prior to the > Fortran document of November, 1954 > http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN/ Al - I'm beginning to think that Dan Gahlinger is like Andy Kaufman creating the character Tony Clifton. He creates Valtrep on the Sentry-70, he creates OS/2 for the PDP-11, just to get us to kick. Actually, OS/2 for the PDP-11, that is so Tony Clifton. It is funny in retrospect :-) Eric had a real funny retort on a NetBSD list, something to do with buying the first sneaker for sneakernet :-), I think the Valtrep ruse, I first saw in 2006. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 21:07:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 19:07:31 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4BE464F3.10450.221EEAA@cclist.sydex.com> I wonder if VECTRAN isn't older than Valtrep. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 21:43:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 19:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <4BE464F3.10450.221EEAA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4BE464F3.10450.221EEAA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100507191758.X50871@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder if VECTRAN isn't older than Valtrep. Fortran with array extensions? I can't compare its age with Valtrep (there seems to be only one person who can discuss Valtrep), but VECTRAN was based on FORTRAN, in the 1970s?. Or is Vectran the fancy fiber that was invented at Roswell NM? Was Valtrep classified? Maybe black helicopters came and retrieved all but one of all of the people who had ever heard of it. Of course the discrepancies in the space-time continuum might not be atributable to Dan. Dan may have been misled. I also once had a boss who insisted that the company's technology predated the invention of fire. I think that Dan needs to correct the omissions in the histories of programming languages at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_programming_languages and the FORTRAN article in the most authoritative of all references: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/FORTRAN But, not to worry. A REAL programmer can write a FORTRAN program in any language. From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 7 21:46:11 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:46:11 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <005e01caee30$4ce298c0$e6a7ca40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: , , , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , <005e01caee30$4ce298c0$e6a7ca40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: In this case, Fred's just, ok, can't say anything nice, don't say anything, he's gone to my ignore list, it's better this way... as for Valtrep, a lot just personal experience, remember I worked on it, in the 80s and before in the 70s. it's interesting even info on the old "Sentry-70" computer system can't be found online, at least, I can't find any. The Sentry-70 is as it suggests, the last model, and numbered by year. that would be 1970. It predates the Cyber/Prime system, as much as memory recalls anyhow. They had the Sentry-70 at the university I happened to be at, at the time. I started there in 1976, yeah I know, it's still late for the time periods we're talking about. However, the systems and languages had been there for a long time before I started. There are a few things that lend evidence to these statements, none of which are likely verifiable... 1. that is how Valtrep was introduced to me (ok, so it's hearsay) 2. more importantly - the structure of the language - and this is more telling. It's quite easy to identify a more primitive version of a language when compared to a more modern one. Syntax, functions, scope, definitions, everything about it. Do I have any sample code of Valtrep still around? That's a tough question. I'm going to guess "NO", however, it is certainly possible. I will definitely look. There are a few people who were at the same university with me at the same time, I can also consult with them and perhaps get some of their memories, one of them may even have sample code, if only on punch-card or whatever. It might be easier [sic] to find info on the computer "Sentry-70", but all my searches thus far have come up blank on any useful information anyhow. I'm willing to cede the argument that Valtrep was the predecessor to Fortran if anyone can offer any evidence to support that. Perhaps it's an odd claim to make without any backup, but then, I was there, so.... Valtrep was very "Fortran-ish" however it didn't have all the functions or capabilities, it was more rudimentary. Dan. > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:57:32 +0100 > > I can't say I have ever heard of Valtrep before and my attempts at searching > the web do not reveal any definitive information. What definitive > information do you have on Valtrep to say that it predates FORTRAN? FORTRAN > dates back to the 1950s. > > Regards > > Rob > > PS I think personal attacks have no place on this list. If someone has > misinterpreted what you say, then explain what you meant, because it is > always possible that you might not have been clear the first time. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Gahlinger > > Sent: 07 May 2010 21:53 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > > > > > If you actually READ the email instead of making immature remarks, > > maybe you'd learn something. > > > > I didn't say apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN or > > even implied anything like that. (that would be quite impossible). > > Don't make stupid comments especially if you don't read the mssage. > > > > You say my 1980s experiences with Valtrep were long after Fortran was > > well established and into the decline? > > Say it isn't so batman! what is this alternate universe we live in!? > > > > oh, and your comment that Valtrep had some nice improvements on the > > original creation of Fortran is just plain stupid. > > > > Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran, or didn't you read my message so > > you could understand that. Guess not. > > > > Fortran may have been in heavy use since the 1960s (actually it's > > probably more like the mid to late 70s, but whatever), > > but Valtrep was actually developed and used long before that. > > > > Just because some company was still using Valtrep in the 1980s doesn't > > make it newer you know. > > Many companies use products and technologies that haven't been > > developed or wide use in decades... > > > > I have no idea who this "transnet" guy is, maybe you can ask him, maybe > > he'll be nicer than I am. > > > > In any case, the predecessor to Fortran was Valtrep. Not all such > > technology has survived. > > Someone months ago on this list talked about reviving a Cyber/Prime, > > but we never did hear about the result if it ever got finished... > > > > Dan. > > > > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:10:00 -0700 > > > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > > > > > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep > > > > > > WOW! > > > Are you saying that Apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa > > FORTRAN? > > > > > > > > > Or are you saying that the earliest versions of FORTRAN were based on > > > Valtrep? If so, you should be aware that FORTRAN was in heavy active > > use > > > in the 1960s, rather long before your 1980s experiences with Valtrep. > > > NO. Valtrep may have made some nice improvements, but they were > > never > > > part of the original creation of FORTRAN. > > > > > > > > > > I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the > > 80s > > > > yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. > > > > > > Yes, RATHER. > > > > > > FORTRAN was well on to its DECLINE in usage by then. > > > > > > > it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do > > valtrep. > > > > Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep is quite useless it > > seems... > > > > > > Oh, I don't know, that guy "transnet" has some interesting ideas :-) > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729707= > _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 7 21:48:07 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:48:07 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org> References: , , , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I would if I could. I can find NO trace of it anywhere online. I can't even find the COMPUTER system it ran on- not a trace of it! the computer was a "Sentry-70", and no, it's not the earliest system that ran Valtrep, just the only one I ever worked with. Again, I'm willing to cede the point if provided evidence to the contrary, this is certainly strong, but not binding. If we could even find a hint about the computer itself, it might lead to information about Valtrep. Dan. > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:08:02 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: > Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > > On 5/7/10 1:52 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran > > Would you please point me to documentation for this language prior to the > Fortran document of November, 1954 > > http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN/ > > _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes to be won with Hotmail. Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729709 From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 7 21:50:14 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:50:14 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: It's not a ruse. and All I said about OS/2 on the PDP-11 was that I had a TK-50 for the PDP-11 that had OS/2 on it. That is a true, factual statement. I still have the tape, still willing to provide the info to anyone that can verify what it is. No one has ever offered. It's very daft to say someone is making something up when you don't have any proof, and don't offer any way to validate the statements one way or the other. Dan. > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 21:45:39 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com > > Al wrote: > > On 5/7/10 1:52 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > >> Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran > > > Would you please point me to documentation for this language prior to the > > Fortran document of November, 1954 > > > http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN/ > > Al - > I'm beginning to think that Dan Gahlinger is like Andy Kaufman creating the > character Tony Clifton. He creates Valtrep on the Sentry-70, he creates > OS/2 for the PDP-11, just to get us to kick. > > Actually, OS/2 for the PDP-11, that is so Tony Clifton. It is funny in > retrospect :-) > > Eric had a real funny retort on a NetBSD list, something > to do with buying the first sneaker for sneakernet :-), > > I think the Valtrep ruse, I first saw in 2006. > > Tim. _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 7 21:54:28 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:54:28 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <4BE464F3.10450.221EEAA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4BE464F3.10450.221EEAA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: VECTRAN is a spun fiber, according to wikipedia ;) although you bring up an interesting thought, from what I recall, "Valtrep" is an associative name by that I mean, it's a name that is created by using portions of at least 2 different words, probably 3. Like "ForTran = Formula Translation" Valtrep actually meant something too, not an acronym as far as I recall, but similar. trying to remember something from so long ago is not easy. at least I completed my 30+ year project of Trek7 finally ;) Dan. > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 19:07:31 -0700 > Subject: Re: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > > I wonder if VECTRAN isn't older than Valtrep. > > --Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729707 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 22:01:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 20:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20100507195529.E50871@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'm beginning to think that Dan Gahlinger is like Andy Kaufman creating the > character Tony Clifton. He creates Valtrep on the Sentry-70, he creates > OS/2 for the PDP-11, just to get us to kick. and the 1980s Sun computer on which email was invented, and duplicating alignment disks, . . . > Actually, OS/2 for the PDP-11, that is so Tony Clifton. It is funny in > retrospect :-) > Eric had a real funny retort on a NetBSD list, something > to do with buying the first sneaker for sneakernet :-), > I think the Valtrep ruse, I first saw in 2006. Damn, he is good at it! He had me convinced that he believed in stuff that he didn't have a clue about! Has anybody else heard of a Sentry-70, or is that also part of the prank? WOW! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 7 22:03:56 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 23:03:56 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , Message-ID: > I've read this, and the rest of the thread, and I'm sorry, but subject > to you presenting us with some pretty remarkable evidence, I think > that you don't know what you're talking about. > > Apart from some very primitive assembler-style systems, FORTRAN was > the world's first high-level programming language of any kind, > followed some years later by COBOL. FORTRAN's planning dates back to > the early 1950s and it was implemented and running by the late 1950s. > > It *had* no significant predecessors in a form that would really be > recognised as a high-level programming language today; before FORTRAN, > the best there was were some coding systems for simplifying the > representation of mathematical or arithmetical operations for input > into the primitive computers of the time. > > *You*, Dan, may have first met FORTRAN in the 1970s, and maybe the > systems you were using had a predecessor called Valtrep that virtually > nobody else has ever heard about - but in computer terms, FORTRAN was > already a venerable grey-bearded ancient by then. > > Sir, you are wrong. Completely and utterly plain dead wrong. > > If you can present evidence that you are not mistaken, then you will > re-write the history of computing and of the development of > programming languages, so I urge you to do so if you can. I was almost going to say "prove it isn't correct", but I won't. it's not fair. But I don't think your statements are "fair" either. Fortran the first high-level language, I think that would be open to debate. Indeed, wikipedia says otherwise... and I quote: The first high-level programming language to be designed for a computer was Plankalk?l, developed for the German Z3 by Konrad Zuse between 1943 and 1945. LISP, COBOL and Algol are also mentioned during the 1950s, so "first" is perhaps debateable. Do we count the programmable "Looms" ? There are questions I can't answer at this time. I can just say, from memory, Valtrep was more "primitive" than Fortran, and yet, very "fortran-like", as I said, if you could program Fortran, Valtrep would be easy to pick up. I can't find any information on it, nor can I find any information on the computer system it ran on (that's bad). so to be fair, I'll mark this and file it as "questionable"/"suspect" until some evidence can be shown either way. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 7 22:04:39 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 23:04:39 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , Message-ID: > I've read this, and the rest of the thread, and I'm sorry, but subject > to you presenting us with some pretty remarkable evidence, I think > that you don't know what you're talking about. > > Apart from some very primitive assembler-style systems, FORTRAN was > the world's first high-level programming language of any kind, > followed some years later by COBOL. FORTRAN's planning dates back to > the early 1950s and it was implemented and running by the late 1950s. > > It *had* no significant predecessors in a form that would really be > recognised as a high-level programming language today; before FORTRAN, > the best there was were some coding systems for simplifying the > representation of mathematical or arithmetical operations for input > into the primitive computers of the time. > > *You*, Dan, may have first met FORTRAN in the 1970s, and maybe the > systems you were using had a predecessor called Valtrep that virtually > nobody else has ever heard about - but in computer terms, FORTRAN was > already a venerable grey-bearded ancient by then. > > Sir, you are wrong. Completely and utterly plain dead wrong. > > If you can present evidence that you are not mistaken, then you will > re-write the history of computing and of the development of > programming languages, so I urge you to do so if you can. I was almost going to say "prove it isn't correct", but I won't. it's not fair. But I don't think your statements are "fair" either. Fortran the first high-level language, I think that would be open to debate. Indeed, wikipedia says otherwise... and I quote: The first high-level programming language to be designed for a computer was Plankalk?l, developed for the German Z3 by Konrad Zuse between 1943 and 1945. LISP, COBOL and Algol are also mentioned during the 1950s, so "first" is perhaps debateable. Do we count the programmable "Looms" ? There are questions I can't answer at this time. I can just say, from memory, Valtrep was more "primitive" than Fortran, and yet, very "fortran-like", as I said, if you could program Fortran, Valtrep would be easy to pick up. I can't find any information on it, nor can I find any information on the computer system it ran on (that's bad). so to be fair, I'll mark this and file it as "questionable"/"suspect" until some evidence can be shown either way. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 7 22:08:02 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 23:08:02 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , Message-ID: > I've read this, and the rest of the thread, and I'm sorry, but subject > to you presenting us with some pretty remarkable evidence, I think > that you don't know what you're talking about. > > Apart from some very primitive assembler-style systems, FORTRAN was > the world's first high-level programming language of any kind, > followed some years later by COBOL. FORTRAN's planning dates back to > the early 1950s and it was implemented and running by the late 1950s. > > It *had* no significant predecessors in a form that would really be > recognised as a high-level programming language today; before FORTRAN, > the best there was were some coding systems for simplifying the > representation of mathematical or arithmetical operations for input > into the primitive computers of the time. > > *You*, Dan, may have first met FORTRAN in the 1970s, and maybe the > systems you were using had a predecessor called Valtrep that virtually > nobody else has ever heard about - but in computer terms, FORTRAN was > already a venerable grey-bearded ancient by then. > > Sir, you are wrong. Completely and utterly plain dead wrong. > > If you can present evidence that you are not mistaken, then you will > re-write the history of computing and of the development of > programming languages, so I urge you to do so if you can. I was almost going to say "prove it isn't correct", but I won't. it's not fair. But I don't think your statements are "fair" either. Fortran the first high-level language, I think that would be open to debate. Indeed, wikipedia says otherwise... and I quote: The first high-level programming language to be designed for a computer was Plankalk?l, developed for the German Z3 by Konrad Zuse between 1943 and 1945. LISP, COBOL and Algol are also mentioned during the 1950s, so "first" is perhaps debateable. Do we count the programmable "Looms" ? There are questions I can't answer at this time. I can just say, from memory, Valtrep was more "primitive" than Fortran, and yet, very "fortran-like", as I said, if you could program Fortran, Valtrep would be easy to pick up. I can't find any information on it, nor can I find any information on the computer system it ran on (that's bad). so to be fair, I'll mark this and file it as "questionable"/"suspect" until some evidence can be shown either way. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Dating: Find someone special. Start now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729707 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri May 7 23:14:50 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 23:14:50 -0500 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , ,,, , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: put valtrep in quotes on your google search. This cuts back on the offending valtrex hits. Its there, but in recent history, nowhere near the genesis of FORTRAN. Randy > From: dgahling at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:48:07 -0400 > > > I would if I could. I can find NO trace of it anywhere online. > > I can't even find the COMPUTER system it ran on- not a trace of it! > > the computer was a "Sentry-70", and no, it's not the earliest system that ran Valtrep, > just the only one I ever worked with. > > Again, I'm willing to cede the point if provided evidence to the contrary, > this is certainly strong, but not binding. > > If we could even find a hint about the computer itself, it might lead to information about Valtrep. > > Dan. > > > Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:08:02 -0700 > > From: aek at bitsavers.org > > To: > > Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > > > > On 5/7/10 1:52 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > > > Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran > > > > Would you please point me to documentation for this language prior to the > > Fortran document of November, 1954 > > > > http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/FORTRAN/ > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > 30 days of prizes to be won with Hotmail. Enter Here. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729709 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 23:25:39 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 21:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20100507211919.T50871@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > It's not a ruse. > and All I said about OS/2 on the PDP-11 was that I had a TK-50 for the > PDP-11 that had OS/2 on it. > That is a true, factual statement. A statement that "I have a tape for the PDP-11 that is LABELED "OS/2" would be defensible. "that has OS/2 on it" is a wild claim. > I still have the tape, still willingJ to provide the info to anyone that > can verify what it is. > No one has ever offered. Numerous people asked to see the tape, or even just a directory listing of its contents. > It's very daft to say someone is making something up when you don't have > any proof, and don't offer any way to validate the statements one way or > the other. OTOH, when somebody makes an unbelievable claim, and won't offer any way to validate the claim, it would be very daft to accept the claim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 7 23:35:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 21:35:58 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <20100507191758.X50871@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100508014539.5FDB7BA55E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4BE464F3.10450.221EEAA@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100507191758.X50871@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE487BE.23285.2A9D86D@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2010 at 19:43, Fred Cisin wrote: > Fortran with array extensions? I can't compare its age with Valtrep > (there seems to be only one person who can discuss Valtrep), but > VECTRAN was based on FORTRAN, in the 1970s?. Or is Vectran the fancy > fiber that was invented at Roswell NM? No, FORTRAN with *vector* extensions (slight difference there, particularly as it concerns sparse vectors and vector arithmetic), circa 1973. A major source of a X3J3 brouhaha for Fortran 90. IBM threatened to withdraw from the proceedings unless the VECTRAN extensions were made part of ANSI Fortran. (I don't think that IBM VECTRAN could claim to be the first FORTRAN with vector extensions--I think that honor goes to either IVTRAN for ILLIAC IV or an early dialect of LRLTRAN.) ...which led to a lot of philisophical discussion about the purpose of standards committees. Namely, to certify current practice or create new language elements. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 7 23:38:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 21:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Randy Dawson wrote: > put valtrep in quotes on your google search. This cuts back on the > offending valtrex hits. > Its there, but in recent history, nowhere near the genesis of FORTRAN. When I did, I got 28 hits. Other than "Valtrep Optical Scanning Software", the only computer related ones were message posts by somebody with a username of "transnet", who "used a Sentry-70 with Valtrep in 1986", and signed some of his posts with "Dan." (complete with the period, similar to our "Dan.") Did you get some hits that I didn't? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 8 00:03:17 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , <005e01caee30$4ce298c0$e6a7ca40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20100507213910.O50871@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > There are a few things that lend evidence to these statements, none of > which are likely verifiable... > 1. that is how Valtrep was introduced to me (ok, so it's hearsay) > 2. more importantly - the structure of the language - and this is more > telling. > It's quite easy to identify a more primitive version of a language when > compared to a more modern one. > Syntax, functions, scope, definitions, everything about it. Now THAT is much more credible. Dan has now acknowledged that some of the source information that he was given could be flawed. Valtrep was introduced to Dan as being a/THE predecessor of FORTRAN. Dan is merely honestly passing on what was told TO him. The person who TOLD Dan that may have been mistaken ("That's what they told me"), exaggerating ("Oh, yeah. This machine predates the existence of DEC",. . . ), or lying. How accurate are the details we were told about the "PDQ FORTRAN" that we used on a 1620 in a college in 1967? Was that even really a 1401 in the next room, or some related model? 20+ years later, I was given a damaged 24" disk platter, and told that it came from THAT 1401. Recently folk with far more experience on those machines have told me "no way", and that therefore what I had been telling my students for recent years wasn't accurate. In terms of being noticably more primitive, let me offer a hypothesis of an honest way that Dan could be mistaken: It is not at all uncommon for universities to proudly use software, including compilers, that were written by students there. Such student written materials may be quite a bit cruder, and lacking many refinements. Did your first attempt at writing a C compiler include floating point? It may not always be feasable to differentiate between earlier software V modern early efforts by talented programming students. After all, that seems to be how we ended up with the UCSD Pascal and P-System, in which certain characteristics are noticably more primitive than much of the commercial software of the time, while certain other characteristics may be novel and innovative. What was the purported relationship between Valtrep and "Speed-Coder"? We may never know all of the details, and we've seen how WWW is still extremely porous in its information. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat May 8 01:13:13 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 08:13:13 +0200 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> Message-ID: <4BE500F9.90409@bluewin.ch> Erik Klein wrote: > eBay item number: 320522921808 > > This is one of John's original hand-built machines. Details in the auction. > > It's at $6,400 now. I personally expect that to more than triple by the > end, but that's just me. :) > And that is way beyond what I would like to pay. Nevertheless I would like to have a go at a machine with serial datapath, so I am looking for a PCB for the Kenbak. Several people have recreated the PCB, anyone willing to release the CAD info, gerber files, or sell me an unpopulated board, modern or old ? Jos Dreesen From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 8 01:27:57 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 23:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <4BE500F9.90409@bluewin.ch> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE500F9.90409@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 May 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > And that is way beyond what I would like to pay. > Nevertheless I would like to have a go at a machine with serial datapath, so > I am looking for a PCB for the Kenbak. > > Several people have recreated the PCB, anyone willing to release the CAD > info, gerber files, or sell me an unpopulated board, modern or old ? Grant Stockly makes a replica kit. See http://www.stockly.com/forums/ -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 8 02:00:14 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 01:00:14 -0600 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , Message-ID: <4BE50BFE.4070404@jetnet.ab.ca> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Fortran the first high-level language, I think that would be open to > debate. Indeed, wikipedia says otherwise... and I quote: > > The first high-level programming language to be designed for a > computer was Plankalk?l, developed for the German Z3 by Konrad Zuse > between 1943 and 1945. > > LISP, COBOL and Algol are also mentioned during the 1950s, so "first" > is perhaps debateable. Do we count the programmable "Looms" ? Only if they can count. :) > There are questions I can't answer at this time. I can just say, from > memory, Valtrep was more "primitive" than Fortran, and yet, very > "fortran-like", as I said, if you could program Fortran, Valtrep > would be easy to pick up. It seems to me unlikely, that you would have any other high level programs other than a possible assembler and link loader with a few odd utility closed subroutines. > I can't find any information on it, nor can I find any information on > the computer system it ran on (that's bad). > > so to be fair, I'll mark this and file it as "questionable"/"suspect" > until some evidence can be shown either way. > Dan. > _________________________________________________________________ Win > a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 From pinball at telus.net Fri May 7 09:20:44 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 07:20:44 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE421BC.5070204@telus.net> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep > > I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the 80s > yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. > > it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do valtrep. > > Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep is quite useless it seems... > > Dan. > > If you put quotes around "valtrep" instead of just valtrep then you do get about 146 legitimate hits, instead of Voltrex which Google tries to push. Interesting that Google, which used to be a great search engine is now deteriorating somewhat due to its' advertising policies. I'm finding that the substitutes Google puts in get in the way of finding items with odd spellings, making research more onerous. One interesting site I found, which is good for math functions is: http://www.wolframalpha.com John :-#)# >> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 14:44:20 +1000 >> Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN >> From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >>> On 5/6/10 6:21 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: >>> >>> >>>> I wonder if Apple would be now willing to release a copy of Lisa C >>>> compiler >>>> (beta) - the beta release (only) included the headers/support to allow C >>>> applications to be compiled targeting Lisa (instead of just Macintosh); >>>> and >>>> Lisa FORTRAN is still to be found too. >>>> >>>> I doubt anyone inside the company would know if copies still exist. >>>> >>> Bruce >>> Daniels might know, but I think it would be pretty tough to find. >>> >> Hopefully, someone will find this thread and remember they kept a copy >> >> >> >>> I'm guessing >>> Lisa FORTRAN would have come from SVS (Silicon Valley Software) who put one >>> out for the 68K around the same time as their non-interpreted Pascal which >>> Apple >>> used on Mac and Lisa and also as the starting point for the MPW C compiler. >>> >>> >> Agree that FORTRAN probably came from SVS. >> >> David Craig had this to say about Lisa C: >> >> ... this C compiler was written by Green Hills. From what I recall about >> this from talking to a member of Apple's Lisa development team, this >> compiler was created under contract and Apple itself did not have any people >> who maintained this compiler. As such, this compiler had a very short life. >> I also believe that Apple's later Macintosh MPW C compiler was written in >> MPW Pascal and maintained by Apple. A later C compiler was written in C. >> Note also that Lisa C could only generate Macintosh object files, not Lisa >> object files (the Lisa's obj files were much more complex that the Mac's due >> to the Lisa's need to support a virtual memory segmented architecture). >> >> >From the Lisa C manual: >> >> "If you know of someone with a Beta version, then you can use it to generate >> Lisa code. The Lisa support was stripped out of the final version". >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From teros at doelegal.com Fri May 7 09:59:16 2010 From: teros at doelegal.com (Tony Eros) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 10:59:16 -0400 Subject: Wang 2200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59BC65D6F92F974DB3C16A2D0E3EAB520A53D0CD4B@inara.doetech.net> William - I know that I'm replying pretty late to this, but would you mind forwarding my name along to the owner on the off chance he or she hasn't yet found a home for this system? I'd be very interested in snagging it. Thanks! -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 7:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Wang 2200 Is there any interest in a Wang 2200 located (I think) in New Jersey? I know very little...I am just the messenger. -- Will From info at emanuelegabellini.it Fri May 7 11:40:12 2010 From: info at emanuelegabellini.it (emanuele gabellini) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 18:40:12 +0200 Subject: Anyone ever heard of a Canon BX-1? Message-ID: <35ADA49A-B7F4-4BB0-9304-391DCE64F061@emanuelegabellini.it> Dear Greg, i'm a little too late about BX-1!!! No, do you still have the computer? How it doing? Let me know please, thanks Emanuele From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri May 7 14:23:34 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Viewpoint or Globalview for x86? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 May 2010, Mike Ross wrote: > Or, you could pick up the real thing: > > http://www.corestore.org/gvwin21.zip > http://www.corestore.org/gvwin21.zip > > Or, if you want to try the X version - runs on Solaris 1.x I believe: > > http://www.corestore.org/GVX_1.05.iso.zip > http://www.corestore.org/GVXv1_0.zip Not to look a gifthorse in the mouth, but those were coming down at modem-like speeds and I gave up. Can someone who grabs these make them available from a bigger pipe? Thanks! Steve -- From wgungfu at gmail.com Fri May 7 15:37:06 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:37:06 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100507133048.K26653@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE3B015.7070107@neurotica.com> <20100507122715.S24632@shell.lmi.net> <4395AF9C-C7DB-4B3C-AA37-6CD56AFE97FF@neurotica.com> <20100507133048.K26653@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> ?Well specifically, people like us, who actually know how >> >> computers work. >> > We do not control the industry, nor the lexicography of it. > > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >> ? ?Really? ?Then who does? ?We ALL shape this industry. ?We're not >> just passengers here. > > Do you really think that we can successfully correct the meaning of > "hackers"? > There are a few too many passengers who ought to be cargo or jettisoned, > steering things. > Good point. The same thing happened with the original subject of this topic, "video game", which has gone on to become a much wider pop culture influenced term from it's original technical descriptive. From jdebert at garlic.com Fri May 7 16:00:52 2010 From: jdebert at garlic.com (j debert) Date: Fri, 07 May 2010 14:00:52 -0700 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning oftheend for floppies) In-Reply-To: <005101caee0b$e4eb7e90$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> References: <201005071522.o47FM3nh012580@floodgap.com> <005101caee0b$e4eb7e90$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BE47F84.1070005@garlic.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 05/07/2010 10:35 AM, Andrew Burton wrote: > The Last Starfighter was excellent, except for the enemy fighters all being > nicely lined up at the end of the film. That was such a disappointment. They > get one of the best pilots in the universe and when anyone would have done > in that situation! > Did that arcade really exist? If not, has anyone tried to make one? > I recall seeing one The Last Starfighter arcade consoles briefly at the time the movie was released. > == jd better !pout !cry better watchout lpr why santa claus town cat /etc/passwd >list ncheck list ncheck list cat list | grep naughty >nogiftlist cat list | grep nice >giftlist santa claus town who | grep sleeping who | grep awake who | egrep 'bad|good' for (goodness sake) { be good } - -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4-svn0 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFL5H+ChpL3F+HeDrIRAkPxAKCsNbrs6lz2JVxoIodNiOCDzjm1UgCfeW9v +C60YJUmDmGbfvlxTWcIkxk= =Fsr7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tech at pluscomputers.com Sat May 8 01:33:55 2010 From: tech at pluscomputers.com (Carl Allen) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 02:33:55 -0400 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey Message-ID: <7FE2FAEDCB6BB84D82198EF8661FD54011FBE7@homer.bigknet.local> Chris, I have the monitor listing (v 2.1) for the SDK-85 in digital form if it will help. I've modified it to compile with Pseudo Sam by removing the macros. I've added line drivers (75188 and 75189) to my SDK-85 to support RS-232C and changed the code so it runs at 9600 baud. If you can rustle up an 8755 you could burn the monitor to it. Regards, Carl -- Carl Allen Plus! Computers, Inc. (336) 659-8549 tech at pluscomputers.com www.pluscomputers.com -- From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat May 8 06:07:36 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 07:07:36 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) Message-ID: <20100508110737.1DF6FBA5607@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Fred writes: > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Randy Dawson wrote: >> put valtrep in quotes on your google search. This cuts back on the >> offending valtrex hits. >> Its there, but in recent history, nowhere near the genesis of FORTRAN. > When I did, I got 28 hits. Other than "Valtrep Optical Scanning > Software", the only computer related ones were message posts by somebody > with a username of "transnet", who "used a Sentry-70 with Valtrep in > 1986", and signed some of his posts with "Dan." > (complete with the period, similar to our "Dan.") > Did you get some hits that I didn't? I think the "is transnet really Dan Gallingher" question is exactly like the "is Tony Clifton really Andy Kaufman" question. Tim. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat May 8 06:59:01 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 07:59:01 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN Message-ID: <20100508115901.59A84BA5616@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Fred writes: > In terms of being noticably more primitive, let me offer a hypothesis of > an honest way that Dan could be mistaken: It is not at all uncommon for > universities to proudly use software, including compilers, that were > written by students there. Such student written materials may be quite a > bit cruder, and lacking many refinements. Did your first attempt at > writing a C compiler include floating point? It may not always be > feasable to differentiate between earlier software V modern early efforts > by talented programming students. After all, that seems to be how we > ended up with the UCSD Pascal and P-System, in which certain > characteristics are noticably more primitive than much of the commercial > software of the time, while certain other characteristics may be novel and > innovative. Many languages of the 60's and 70's were horribly over-specified and the "full language" in fact had a lot of features that were not desirable. Some of these were developed at schools as local products that were never released, and others did become products with a life outside the school. Others were developed by minicomputer companies because the "full mainframe language" was not practicable on the mini. e.g. WATFIV was like FORTRAN but eliminated the separate complie/link/execute phases and could collapse them. It extended the language in some directions while collapsing it in others. Later on came RATFOR which went in a different direction, adding structured elements onto FORTRAN. e.g. BASIC was supposed to be a simplified version of FORTRAN or ALGOL, but in fact it was simplified even further into things like PILOT. e.g. COBOL is, even today, cantankerous but some concepts from it went into the much streamlined DIBOL. (I hava a sweet spot for DIBOL.) I think a very important concept, is that having more features in a language, especially when those features were specified by a committee, results in an overly complicated overly large cantankerous language. Too bad most people still get sold on features :-(. It's like the DVD players with 141 buttons on the remote - people buy it because it has more buttons or functions, to the point where putting more buttons on becomes a marketing function, not a usability function. Tim. From dgahling at hotmail.com Sat May 8 10:18:05 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 11:18:05 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100508115901.59A84BA5616@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100508115901.59A84BA5616@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Many excellent points. but in the 80s it wasn't a university using it, it was a large commercial business and it still bothers me, what about the computer itself? also, from what I recall there was only one programming language available, and that was valtrep. that is certainly odd. but perhaps in larger scope doesn't totally discount a student project, though I think the commercial aspect might I find it deeply disturbing that there seems to be no trace of the computer system itself. this list and other places exist in some ways to preserve history of computing. it seems to suggest there are whole sections of computing history lost, which is not good. I don't expect every computer ever built to be documented, but something used at a university should have some sort of documentation. though I recognize they also experimented a lot. so perhaps its not easy to judge if this is a fair expectation. Dan. > Many languages of the 60's and 70's were horribly over-specified and > the "full language" in fact had a lot of features that were not desirable. > Some of these were developed at schools as local products that were > never released, and others did become products with a life outside the > school. Others were developed by minicomputer companies because the > "full mainframe language" was not practicable on the mini. > > e.g. WATFIV was like FORTRAN but eliminated the separate complie/link/execute > phases and could collapse them. It extended the language in some directions > while collapsing it in others. Later on came RATFOR which went in a > different direction, adding structured elements onto FORTRAN. > > e.g. BASIC was supposed to be a simplified version of FORTRAN or ALGOL, but > in fact it was simplified even further into things like PILOT. > > e.g. COBOL is, even today, cantankerous but some concepts from it went > into the much streamlined DIBOL. (I hava a sweet spot for DIBOL.) > > I think a very important concept, is that having more features in a language, > especially when those features were specified by a committee, results in > an overly complicated overly large cantankerous language. Too bad > most people still get sold on features :-(. It's like the DVD players > with 141 buttons on the remote - people buy it because it has more buttons > or functions, to the point where putting more buttons on becomes a marketing > function, not a usability function. > > Tim. _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 8 11:43:17 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 09:43:17 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <20100508110737.1DF6FBA5607@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100508110737.1DF6FBA5607@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4BE594A5.9000006@bitsavers.org> On 5/8/10 4:07 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Fred writes: >> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Randy Dawson wrote: >>> put valtrep in quotes on your google search. This cuts back on the >>> offending valtrex hits. >>> Its there, but in recent history, nowhere near the genesis of FORTRAN. > sep 1975 datamation and IEEE Computer Optical Mark Reader The Sentry 7020 is primarily offered to schools for the purpose of reducing large volumes of data that can be expressed on optical mark reading input sheets. This includes tests, but can also encompass attendance records, registration, schedules, surveys, etc. The 7020 contains a 16-bit mini with 8K memory, a tty for interaction, a cassette drive unit for programming, an output tape unit, a document transport! stacker and optionally a line printer. The read speed is 7000 sheetsl hour and has capabilities for scoring both sides of a sheet simultaneously, provisions for handling truel false or multiple choice questions, and can allow multiple correct answers to questions, if desired. Sixteen levels of discrimination are used to differentiate between valid marks and a smudge or erasure. The 7020 sells for $98,880 or can be rented for as little as $1,3751 month on a five-year lease, including maintenance. A slower model (3000 sheetsl hour) is also available. NATIONAL COMPUTER SYSTEMS, Minneapolis, Minn. the picture looks like a General Automation mini. From dgahling at hotmail.com Sat May 8 12:05:39 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:05:39 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <4BE594A5.9000006@bitsavers.org> References: <20100508110737.1DF6FBA5607@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, <4BE594A5.9000006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: seems correct... thank you! this is a similar use that was used at the company I worked for... though it wasn't for marking tests... we used the tty for programming at the time. Could you provide a link to the article and picture? it'd be nice to see again. Doesn't say anything about programming languages, etc Dan. > Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 09:43:17 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: > Subject: Re: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > > On 5/8/10 4:07 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Fred writes: > >> On Fri, 7 May 2010, Randy Dawson wrote: > >>> put valtrep in quotes on your google search. This cuts back on the > >>> offending valtrex hits. > >>> Its there, but in recent history, nowhere near the genesis of FORTRAN. > > > > sep 1975 datamation and IEEE Computer > > Optical Mark Reader > The Sentry 7020 is primarily offered to > schools for the purpose of reducing > large volumes of data that can be expressed > on optical mark reading input > sheets. This includes tests, but can also > encompass attendance records, registration, > schedules, surveys, etc. The > 7020 contains a 16-bit mini with 8K > memory, a tty for interaction, a cassette > drive unit for programming, an > output tape unit, a document transport! > stacker and optionally a line > printer. The read speed is 7000 sheetsl > hour and has capabilities for scoring > both sides of a sheet simultaneously, > provisions for handling truel false or > multiple choice questions, and can allow > multiple correct answers to questions, > if desired. Sixteen levels of discrimination > are used to differentiate > between valid marks and a smudge or > erasure. The 7020 sells for $98,880 or > can be rented for as little as > $1,3751 month on a five-year lease, including > maintenance. A slower model > (3000 sheetsl hour) is also available. > NATIONAL COMPUTER SYSTEMS, Minneapolis, > Minn. > > the picture looks like a General Automation mini. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes to be won with Hotmail. Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729709 From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 12:09:16 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 12:09:16 -0500 Subject: Servant .953 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE59ABC.6080808@oldskool.org> On 5/7/2010 1:35 PM, Roger Holmes wrote: > > Is the source Pascal, Assembler, C or something else? I am *quite* interested in seeing the source, as I've wanted to see the code behind the ideas expressed on folklore.org. Specifically, some of the rounded-box and ellipse code. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 12:13:48 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 12:13:48 -0500 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE59BCC.5040004@oldskool.org> On 5/7/2010 2:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > If this list starts discussing such activities, I am leaving. Period. I delete 98% of the messages on this list but I would never, ever consider "leaving". It's not hard to just delete messages. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 12:18:30 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 12:18:30 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE59CE6.2070803@oldskool.org> On 5/7/2010 2:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Do youu seriously believe that a 33MHz 80386-based PC (which were popular > many uears ago) has the same processor speed as my PDP11/45 (which > happens to hace a 33MHz master clock crystal) ? My 5150 has a master clock of 14.318Mhz; by your logic it is a 14Mhz processor. Come on. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 12:22:07 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 12:22:07 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE59DBF.8020805@oldskool.org> On 5/7/2010 1:08 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? > (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the > processor!) They're wrong :-). The "size" of the CPU is defined by the size of the internal registers. I am astonished there is actual discussion debating this. I think people who maintain the size of the data bus as being the measure of a CPU are hardware people who have never optimized an inner loop in machine code. > What do you consider 80386 to be? > how about the 80386-SX? It's hardware seems similar to 80286; what is > THAT? 32-bit. It can process 32 bits in a single operation and deposit the results into a 32-bit register. Again, I'm astonished there is any debate at all. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 8 12:25:23 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 10:25:23 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and LisaFORTRAN) References: , , , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BE59E84.D5C932EE@cs.ubc.ca> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I would if I could. I can find NO trace of it anywhere online. > > I can't even find the COMPUTER system it ran on- not a trace of it! > > the computer was a "Sentry-70", and no, it's not the earliest system that ran Valtrep, > just the only one I ever worked with. > > Again, I'm willing to cede the point if provided evidence to the contrary, > this is certainly strong, but not binding. > > If we could even find a hint about the computer itself, it might lead to information about Valtrep. I will humbly mention for consideration that RCA produced the "Spectra 70" line of computer systems starting in the mid/late-60's. "valtrep" (which, I too, have never previously heard of) might have been one of many things: an in-house development to avoid paying for a FORTRAN compiler, somebody's idea of a paired-down FORTRAN to reduce system requirements, some proprietary language developed by the system manufacturer, etc. Also for consideration, the period brochure about the Spectra 70 from: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/RCA/RCA.SPECTRA70.1965.102646099.pdf states on page 21: ... A case in point might be when your programmers cannot express the solution to a problem concisely in one of the standard languages such as COBOL or Fortran. The extended assember "meta language" - as it is sometimes identified - is a powerful tool that permits the expression of unique application-oriented languages by your programmers. Might be just marketing-speak for a macro-assembler, and I'm not suggesting this was "valtrep", but if the computer was a Spectra 70, this may have been an available tool to inspire some in-house language development. -- Others have addressed the notion of "valtrep" predating FORTRAN, I'll try to refrain from commenting further on that topic. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 12:25:21 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 12:25:21 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE42413.3484.1248262@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net>, <4BE3C399.30803@iais.fraunhofer.de> <4BE42413.3484.1248262@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BE59E81.6020406@oldskool.org> On 5/7/2010 4:30 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Trying to find a universal way of classifying processors seems to me > to be an exercise in folly, akin to angels dancing on the head of a > pin. > > The PB-250 had a one-bit data bus and a 22 bit word length. > > A PPU on a CDC 6000 series machine has 12-bit words but an 18-bit > accumulator. > > The CDC STAR had 64-bit registers, but a 644-bit (IIRC) data bus. > > The eZ80 has an 8-bit data bus, 24-bit registers with a 24-bit > addressing space and can performa a 16x16 multiply with a 32-bit > product, yet it runs Z80 code. PB-250: 22-bit CDC 6000 PDU: 18-bit CDC STAR: 64-bit eZ80: 24-bit Seems pretty cut and dried to me. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Sat May 8 12:26:17 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:26:17 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE50BFE.4070404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , , , , , <4BE50BFE.4070404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: technically, looms count, they have to, to know how many times to do a particular pattern. that would make such programming language back into the 17th century at least ;) > Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 01:00:14 -0600 > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > To: > Subject: Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > Fortran the first high-level language, I think that would be open to > > debate. Indeed, wikipedia says otherwise... and I quote: > > > > The first high-level programming language to be designed for a > > computer was Plankalk?l, developed for the German Z3 by Konrad Zuse > > between 1943 and 1945. > > > > LISP, COBOL and Algol are also mentioned during the 1950s, so "first" > > is perhaps debateable. Do we count the programmable "Looms" ? > > Only if they can count. :) > > > There are questions I can't answer at this time. I can just say, from > > memory, Valtrep was more "primitive" than Fortran, and yet, very > > "fortran-like", as I said, if you could program Fortran, Valtrep > > would be easy to pick up. > It seems to me unlikely, that you would have any other high level > programs other than a possible assembler and link loader with a few > odd utility closed subroutines. > > > I can't find any information on it, nor can I find any information on > > the computer system it ran on (that's bad). > > > > so to be fair, I'll mark this and file it as "questionable"/"suspect" > > until some evidence can be shown either way. > > > Dan. > > _________________________________________________________________ Win > > a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 > _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 12:27:33 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 12:27:33 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE59F05.1030209@oldskool.org> On 5/7/2010 2:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Ah, so the 8080, Z80 and 6809 are all 16 bit processors, then? They all > have machine instructiosn that can change all the bits in a 16-bit register. Then I'll clarify it to be the size of the accumulator. >> Is someone seriously challenging that the IBM PC 5150 wasn't a 16-bit >> computer? > > Well, I only see an 8 bit databus on the schematics... You're a hardware guy :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Sat May 8 12:28:29 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:28:29 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and LisaFORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <4BE59E84.D5C932EE@cs.ubc.ca> References: , ,,, , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , , , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org>, , <4BE59E84.D5C932EE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Sorry, not the right one. wasn't "Spectra 70". I think we found the right one with the IEEE someone else provided. Dan. > Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 10:25:23 -0700 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at invalid.domain > Subject: Re: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and LisaFORTRAN) > > I will humbly mention for consideration that RCA produced the "Spectra 70" line > of computer systems starting in the mid/late-60's. > > "valtrep" (which, I too, have never previously heard of) might have been one > of many things: an in-house development to avoid paying for a FORTRAN compiler, > somebody's idea of a paired-down FORTRAN to reduce system requirements, some > proprietary language developed by the system manufacturer, etc. > > Also for consideration, the period brochure about the Spectra 70 from: > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/RCA/RCA.SPECTRA70.1965.102646099.pdf > states on page 21: > ... > A case in point might be when your programmers cannot express > the solution to a problem concisely in one of the standard languages > such as COBOL or Fortran. The extended assember "meta language" > - as it is sometimes identified - is a powerful tool that permits > the expression of unique application-oriented languages by your > programmers. > > Might be just marketing-speak for a macro-assembler, and I'm not suggesting > this was "valtrep", but if the computer was a Spectra 70, this may have been an > available tool to inspire some in-house language development. > _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 12:30:31 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 12:30:31 -0500 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BE3E80C.14068.3A069D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4BE3E80C.14068.3A069D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BE59FB7.3040408@oldskool.org> On 5/7/2010 12:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But then, I liked "Cop Rock". Shows what kind of taste I have. My afternoon has been consumed by laughter watching clips of this show, which I did not know about at all until now. Thank you! What on earth possessed Bochco that this was a good idea? It doesn't help that the music they sing to is mostly synthesized, badly. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 8 12:57:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 10:57:25 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE59E81.6020406@oldskool.org> References: , <4BE42413.3484.1248262@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BE59E81.6020406@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE54395.31229.649D43@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2010 at 12:25, Jim Leonard wrote: > CDC 6000 PPU: 18-bit Seymour Cray probably would have disagreed with you. I have *never* seen them referred to as anything but 12-bit processors. I think the long accumulator and associated instructions were added to the 160A design to facilitate CPU access (CM addresses are 18 bit). How about the IBM 1620? No accumulator; memory-to-memory; variable word length (2-20,000 digits). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 8 12:58:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 10:58:44 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and LisaFORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <4BE59E84.D5C932EE@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4BE59E84.D5C932EE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4BE543E4.11483.65D4C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2010 at 10:25, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I will humbly mention for consideration that RCA produced the "Spectra > 70" line of computer systems starting in the mid/late-60's. Otherwise known as the "Spectrola". (You've got to be fairly ancient to appreciate that one). --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 8 13:06:06 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 11:06:06 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and LisaFORTRAN) References: , <4BE59E84.D5C932EE@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE543E4.11483.65D4C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BE5A80E.8770690B@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 8 May 2010 at 10:25, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I will humbly mention for consideration that RCA produced the "Spectra > > 70" line of computer systems starting in the mid/late-60's. > > Otherwise known as the "Spectrola". (You've got to be fairly ancient > to appreciate that one). I'm getting older but I don't think I qualify as ancient quite yet. None-the-less, I do appreciate the humor in that one (due to antique radio experience, for those who need a further hint). From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 8 13:40:02 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 11:40:02 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and LisaFORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <4BE5A80E.8770690B@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , <4BE59E84.D5C932EE@cs.ubc.ca>, <4BE543E4.11483.65D4C9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BE5A80E.8770690B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: I have a Radiola 26 ;) Dwight > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > On 8 May 2010 at 10:25, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > > I will humbly mention for consideration that RCA produced the "Spectra > > > 70" line of computer systems starting in the mid/late-60's. > > > > Otherwise known as the "Spectrola". (You've got to be fairly ancient > > to appreciate that one). > > I'm getting older but I don't think I qualify as ancient quite yet. > None-the-less, I do appreciate the humor in that one (due to antique radio > experience, for those who need a further hint). _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 8 13:43:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 14:43:50 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE59DBF.8020805@oldskool.org> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE59DBF.8020805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On May 8, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? >> (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the >> processor!) > > They're wrong :-). The "size" of the CPU is defined by the size of > the internal registers. I am astonished there is actual discussion > debating this. I'll debate it. What about the PDP-8/S? By your definition that's a 1-bit processor. >> What do you consider 80386 to be? >> how about the 80386-SX? It's hardware seems similar to 80286; >> what is >> THAT? > > 32-bit. It can process 32 bits in a single operation and deposit > the results into a 32-bit register. Again, I'm astonished there is > any debate at all. I've never heard the 80286 referred to as a 32-bit processor, and I never considered it such when I was programming them on a regular basis. > eZ80: 24-bit It's a Z-80! The vast majority of its instructions are 8-bit Z80 instructions. Jim, I really believe this just isn't as cut-and-dried as you say it is. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat May 8 13:52:45 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 20:52:45 +0200 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE500F9.90409@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4BE5B2FD.2010700@bluewin.ch> David Griffith wrote: > On Sat, 8 May 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> And that is way beyond what I would like to pay. >> Nevertheless I would like to have a go at a machine with serial >> datapath, so I am looking for a PCB for the Kenbak. >> >> Several people have recreated the PCB, anyone willing to release the >> CAD info, gerber files, or sell me an unpopulated board, modern or old ? > > Grant Stockly makes a replica kit. See http://www.stockly.com/forums/ Grant is difficult to get hold off these days... Jos From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 8 14:58:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 20:58:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE59BCC.5040004@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 8, 10 12:13:48 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/7/2010 2:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > If this list starts discussing such activities, I am leaving. Period. > > I delete 98% of the messages on this list but I would never, ever > consider "leaving". It's not hard to just delete messages. I am not suggestign that you (or anyone else) leave. But I happen to have such dislike of all forms of sport and exercise that I would not want to remain on a list where such things are discussed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 8 15:01:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 21:01:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE59CE6.2070803@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 8, 10 12:18:30 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/7/2010 2:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Do youu seriously believe that a 33MHz 80386-based PC (which were popular > > many uears ago) has the same processor speed as my PDP11/45 (which > > happens to hace a 33MHz master clock crystal) ? > > My 5150 has a master clock of 14.318Mhz; by your logic it is a 14Mhz > processor. Come on. OK, what is the frequency that you quote for this. In particular, what clock frequewncy would you quote for a PDP11/45 (schematics should be on bitsavers)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 8 15:03:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 21:03:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE59DBF.8020805@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 8, 10 12:22:07 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/7/2010 1:08 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? > > (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the > > processor!) > > They're wrong :-). The "size" of the CPU is defined by the size of the > internal registers. I am astonished there is actual discussion debating > this. Ah, so a Z80 is a 16 bit processor (IX, IY, SP and PC are all 16 bits, and there is no documented way to use half of them (Yes I do know about some of the undocumented ways)). > > I think people who maintain the size of the data bus as being the > measure of a CPU are hardware people who have never optimized an inner > loop in machine code. Conversely I could claim that those who calim the 8088 is a 16 bit processor have never wire-wrapped the data bus connections to one, and found there are only 8 to wire up. -tony From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 8 15:14:11 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 15:14:11 -0500 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and LisaFORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <4BE543E4.11483.65D4C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4BE59E84.D5C932EE@cs.ubc.ca>, <4BE543E4.11483.65D4C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 10:58:44 -0700 > Subject: Re: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and LisaFORTRAN) > > On 8 May 2010 at 10:25, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I will humbly mention for consideration that RCA produced the "Spectra > > 70" line of computer systems starting in the mid/late-60's. > > Otherwise known as the "Spectrola". (You've got to be fairly ancient > to appreciate that one). > > --Chuck > And I think NIPPER was the language processor... _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 8 15:06:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 21:06:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE59F05.1030209@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 8, 10 12:27:33 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/7/2010 2:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > > Ah, so the 8080, Z80 and 6809 are all 16 bit processors, then? They all > > have machine instructiosn that can change all the bits in a 16-bit register. > > Then I'll clarify it to be the size of the accumulator. A PDP11 or a P850 doesn't have an 'accumulator' All registers are essentially equivalent. Are those 0-bit machines? The 6809 documntation refers to the D registers as a 16 bit accumulator IIRC > > >> Is someone seriously challenging that the IBM PC 5150 wasn't a 16-bit > >> computer? > > > > Well, I only see an 8 bit databus on the schematics... > > You're a hardware guy :) Correct. But I don't see what differece that makes. -tony From ats at offog.org Sat May 8 15:17:45 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 21:17:45 +0100 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran In-Reply-To: <4BE594A5.9000006@bitsavers.org> (Al Kossow's message of "Sat, 08 May 2010 09:43:17 -0700") References: <20100508110737.1DF6FBA5607@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4BE594A5.9000006@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al Kossow writes (quoting Datamation): > The Sentry 7020 is primarily offered to schools for the purpose of > reducing large volumes of data that can be expressed on optical mark > reading input sheets. Searching on Google Books for VALTREP turns up a few plausible-sounding 1970s references to it as a programming language for that sort of application: "An error checking and testing system for the VALTREP optical scanning software package" "Service options I and II assume that the evaluation team has an expert who can write the special programs (VALTREP) which tell the electronic data what to do. If the service request is a routine one, the expert writes or modifies a general program." -- Adam Sampson From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 8 15:37:11 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 8 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? > > > (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the > > > processor!) > > > > They're wrong :-). The "size" of the CPU is defined by the size of the > > internal registers. I am astonished there is actual discussion debating > > this. > > Ah, so a Z80 is a 16 bit processor (IX, IY, SP and PC are all 16 bits, > and there is no documented way to use half of them (Yes I do know about > some of the undocumented ways)). > > > > > I think people who maintain the size of the data bus as being the > > measure of a CPU are hardware people who have never optimized an inner > > loop in machine code. > > Conversely I could claim that those who calim the 8088 is a 16 bit > processor have never wire-wrapped the data bus connections to one, and > found there are only 8 to wire up. The problem remains that we are trying to come up with a single quantification for measuring something with multiple variable characteristics. If we were to grossly oversimplify, and use the most "popular" quantifiers, we would still have two characteristics to measure. the 8080 is 8 bit software, 8 bit hardware the 8088 is 16 bit software, 8 bit hardware. the 8086 is 16 bit software, 16 bit hardware. the 80286 is 16 bit software, 16 bit hardware. the 80386SX is 32 bit software, 16 bit hardware. the 80386DX is 32 bit software, 32 bit hardware. the Sentry-70 is unknown. But this does not invalidate the measuring systems used for different types, and it is still trivially easy to come up with defensible ways to measure with different end results. Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", "mainframe"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From johndraugr at soznet.net Sat May 8 15:52:15 2010 From: johndraugr at soznet.net (John Von Draugr) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 16:52:15 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE5CEFF.2010209@soznet.net> On 5/8/2010 3:58 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 5/7/2010 2:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> If this list starts discussing such activities, I am leaving. Period. >>> >> I delete 98% of the messages on this list but I would never, ever >> consider "leaving". It's not hard to just delete messages. >> > I am not suggestign that you (or anyone else) leave. > > But I happen to have such dislike of all forms of sport and exercise > that I would not want to remain on a list where such things are discussed. > > -tony > So...Anyone watch that NY Yankees vs Boston Redsox game last night? What a game. Lets start talking about it as I LOVE sports! *Haha* From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 8 16:21:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 14:21:16 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE59CE6.2070803@oldskool.org> References: , <4BE59CE6.2070803@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE5735C.14033.11F4022@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2010 at 12:18, Jim Leonard wrote: > My 5150 has a master clock of 14.318Mhz; by your logic it is a 14Mhz > processor. Come on. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) Actually, almost all modern x86 systems have a 14.31818MHz master clock. It's usually first multiplied up by a PLL chip (e.g. PI6C104), then further multiplied by an on-chip PLL in the CPU. So all x86 systems since the PII are 14.31818MHz systems? --Chuck From rogpugh at mac.com Sat May 8 17:27:43 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 23:27:43 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE5CEFF.2010209@soznet.net> References: <4BE5CEFF.2010209@soznet.net> Message-ID: <4BE5E55F.1060707@mac.com> So...Anyone watch that NY Yankees vs Boston Redsox game last night? What a game. Lets start talking about it as I LOVE sports! *Haha* At which point you have lost the interest of everyone outside of North America.. LOL Tony, some of us understand you :-) Rog From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 8 09:12:25 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 15:12:25 +0100 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> <20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:08 PM Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > I taught beginning FORTRAN in the 1980s at Merritt College (community > college), and would not mind doing it again, if we could get a quorum for > the classes. > COBOL is gone from our curriculum :-( > RPG is gone from our curriculum :-) > FORTRAN is gone from our curriculum :-( > APL is gone from our curriculum :-( > BASIC is gone from our curriculum :-( > The administration has cancelled C > The administration has cancelled C# > The administration has cancelled ASM > We are down to "Using Microsoft Office", "VISUAL BASIC", > and C++ (slated for cancellation soon) > > The CIS departments are circling the drain. > That sucks. I am *so* glad I never went on to further education after secondary school. I have learnt more on my own (thanks to books, people on this list and retro computers) than I ever would have in *modern courses*. A piece of paper doesn't make me a good coder, good software written by me does. How can BASIC not be taught? Every computer has it's own version of BASIC, whereas (as I understand it) Visual Basic is only available for modern computers. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 8 09:16:57 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 15:16:57 +0100 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net><005e01caee30$4ce298c0$e6a7ca40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <20100507151106.O28926@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <013801caef02$644d96e0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:16 PM Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > I can understand that it gets frustrating when people misinterpret > ambiguous statements. > Not to mention that alot (all?) of us are very passionate about our love of retrocomputers, which certainly helps to fuel arguments (even if it was down to misinterprations). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat May 8 18:01:42 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 19:01:42 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE5ED56.50701@verizon.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 8 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >>>> Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? >>>> (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the >>>> processor!) >>>> >>> They're wrong :-). The "size" of the CPU is defined by the size of the >>> internal registers. I am astonished there is actual discussion debating >>> this. >>> >> Ah, so a Z80 is a 16 bit processor (IX, IY, SP and PC are all 16 bits, >> and there is no documented way to use half of them (Yes I do know about >> some of the undocumented ways)). >> >> This is wrong. Z80 the basic operations are all byte not word and the number of word (double byte ops are few). >>> I think people who maintain the size of the data bus as being the >>> measure of a CPU are hardware people who have never optimized an inner >>> loop in machine code. >>> >> Conversely I could claim that those who calim the 8088 is a 16 bit >> processor have never wire-wrapped the data bus connections to one, and >> found there are only 8 to wire up. >> When the bus size is totally visible to the programmer then it's the native size. In most cases it's not unless hes counting bus cycles for execution times. The 8088 has the same 16bit ADD as the 16bit wide 8086, they are both 16bit. The difference is Intel tweaked the BIU (bus interface unit) to do two 8bit fetches when the 8086 would do a 16bit fetch. However both were also designed to efficiently handle 8 bit byte data as well. Does that make the 8086 an 8bitter, no. The usual difference is when a programmer has to do multi-precision arithmetic. If the break point to get to a 16bit add requires using special registers (8080/z80) or the native accumulator 8088/86 then it starts to be obvious. For both doing 32bit math requires programming as its not anywhere near native. Many of the early micros that bridged the pure 8bit to the 16/32bit world tend to blur this greatly but usually it's pretty obvious they are 8bit or 16bit when a data move involving the primary accumulator. > > The problem remains that we are trying to come up with a single > quantification for measuring something with multiple variable > characteristics. > > > If we were to grossly oversimplify, > and use the most "popular" quantifiers, > we would still have two characteristics to measure. > the 8080 is 8 bit software, 8 bit hardware > Instead of 8it hardware try 8bit bus and 8bit primary accumulator > the 8088 is 16 bit software, 8 bit hardware. > 8bit bus, 16bit primary accumulator > the 8086 is 16 bit software, 16 bit hardware. > the 80286 is 16 bit software, 16 bit hardware. > the 80386SX is 32 bit software, 16 bit hardware. > the 80386DX is 32 bit software, 32 bit hardware. > the Sentry-70 is unknown. > > To show how bus size is errant indicator other than for hook up and possible throughput. It is a performance indicator and a system cost factor. Consider the SX486/33 still 32bits, and ran all the 486 stuff but for laptops lower power and a 16bit bus. Cheaper to build around, lower power and slower as memory bottlenecked it. The T11 is a PDP-11 and by definition a 16bit machine, however depending on the condition of the startup register the bus can be 8 bit or 16bit! Same software, same primary data size. No to add insult to injury we have a Z280 which for those that know is a souped up z80 that can run base z80 programs. However, like the T11 it also has a startup configuration register and it can also run as 8bit or 16bit bus. It's still a Z80 and the primary accumulator (or any secondary) is still 8bits! > But this does not invalidate the measuring systems used for different > types, and it is still trivially easy to come up with defensible ways to > measure with different end results. > > The basic size of a CPU has always been governed by the basic data size usually defined but the primary arithmetic register (accumulator). This impacts programming as the math you do is defined by it and if you need greater precision that usually means multiple precision math be it 16bits on Z80 or 64bits on a PIII. > Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", > "mainframe"? > > Also fuzzy, though the PDP-8 was the definition of minicomputer it's say the 8008 is often held as best known first micro. Specifically the primary elements of computer such as the control and primary register are on one chip its micro as most all minis were many chips on large or many boards (though some would become micros later such as 6100, LSI-11, and Nova). The Yabuts of that were the bit slices like 6700 and 2900 that sorta fell in the middle between mini and micro. Mainframe was usually reserved for the big central systems usually with word lengths of 32bits or more. Best examples are IBM360, DEC PDP10, CDC 6600. My cut but hey, it's my $0.02. Allison > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 8 18:51:31 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 18:51:31 -0500 Subject: Procom CD Tower - drivers? Message-ID: I've dug out of my garage a Procom CDT-7-4X-ET cdrom tower. It's got seven Plextor 4x SCSI drives and It appears to be networkable. Anyone have any idea how to access it over the network? Maybe reset the ethernet module to a known IP? I can't even find a MAC address on the case anywhere. Granted, it's not much as use now as in the days when having 7x640mb online and not having to put it on disc was a big deal, but like all the old junk lying around here, I'd like to see it working once. And I'm thinking the CDROMs could possibly be replaced with hard drives (if supported by the firmware in the tower.) TIA -- jht From evan at snarc.net Sat May 8 19:27:49 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 20:27:49 -0400 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> Message-ID: <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> > eBay item number: 320522921808 > > This is one of John's original hand-built machines. Details in the auction. > > It's at $6,400 now. I personally expect that to more than triple by the > end, but that's just me. :) > Half-hour to go, it's up to $9,900 .... will be fun to watch this go up! Wish I could afford to bid. :( From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat May 8 19:55:06 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 19:55:06 -0500 Subject: Procom CD Tower - drivers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 6:51 PM, Jason T wrote: > Granted, it's not much as use now as in the days when having 7x640mb > online and not having to put it on disc was a big deal, but like all > the old junk lying around here, I'd like to see it working once. ?And > I'm thinking the CDROMs could possibly be replaced with hard drives > (if supported by the firmware in the tower.) How about blueray drives? :-) brian From evan at snarc.net Sat May 8 20:02:08 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 21:02:08 -0400 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> >> eBay item number: 320522921808 >> >> This is one of John's original hand-built machines. Details in the >> auction. >> >> It's at $6,400 now. I personally expect that to more than triple by the >> end, but that's just me. :) > > Half-hour to go, it's up to $9,900 .... will be fun to watch this go > up! Wish I could afford to bid. :( > Wow .... with 20 seconds to go, it jumped from 9900 to 20100, then with five seconds to go it jumped to 25600, then ended. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 8 20:30:49 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 18:30:49 -0700 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >> eBay item number: 320522921808 > >> > >> This is one of John's original hand-built machines. Details in the > >> auction. > >> > >> It's at $6,400 now. I personally expect that to more than triple by the > >> end, but that's just me. :) > > > > Half-hour to go, it's up to $9,900 .... will be fun to watch this go > > up! Wish I could afford to bid. :( > > > > Wow .... with 20 seconds to go, it jumped from 9900 to 20100, then with > five seconds to go it jumped to 25600, then ended. I can appreciate some degree of added value for this particular unit giving it's direct providence to Blankenbaker, and as much I might think the Kenbak is neat for technical reasons such as a minimal processor made from SSI/MSI devices, bit-serial architecture, and so on, this is one where I really scratch my head over the dollar value people are placing on them, given their obscurity in their day and relative lack of influence on computing development. (just MHO ...) From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat May 8 20:34:32 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 21:34:32 -0400 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> I thought we were in such a horrible recession... seems like people have a lot of disposable income lately... $25,000 Kenbak $31,000 Atari 2600 "Air Raid" boxed Cartridge $41,000 Rare Nintendo cartridge Curt Brent Hilpert wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>>> eBay item number: 320522921808 >>>> >>>> This is one of John's original hand-built machines. Details in the >>>> auction. >>>> >>>> It's at $6,400 now. I personally expect that to more than triple by the >>>> end, but that's just me. :) >>>> >>> Half-hour to go, it's up to $9,900 .... will be fun to watch this go >>> up! Wish I could afford to bid. :( >>> >>> >> Wow .... with 20 seconds to go, it jumped from 9900 to 20100, then with >> five seconds to go it jumped to 25600, then ended. >> > > I can appreciate some degree of added value for this particular unit giving > it's direct providence to Blankenbaker, and as much I might think the Kenbak is > neat for technical reasons such as a minimal processor made from SSI/MSI > devices, bit-serial architecture, and so on, this is one where I really scratch > my head over the dollar value people are placing on them, given their obscurity > in their day and relative lack of influence on computing development. > (just MHO ...) > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 8 20:38:57 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 21:38:57 -0400 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On May 8, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Wow .... with 20 seconds to go, it jumped from 9900 to 20100, then >> with >> five seconds to go it jumped to 25600, then ended. > > I can appreciate some degree of added value for this particular > unit giving > it's direct providence to Blankenbaker, and as much I might think > the Kenbak is > neat for technical reasons such as a minimal processor made from > SSI/MSI > devices, bit-serial architecture, and so on, this is one where I > really scratch > my head over the dollar value people are placing on them, given > their obscurity > in their day and relative lack of influence on computing development. > (just MHO ...) Apparently other people have different ideas of why it's important. Lack of commonality and lack of influence in the future are only two possible things that one might find important. Why am I a PDP-11 fanatic? Because I LIKE them, nothing more. I couldn't care less about the fact that it was an influential architecture with common implementations. This is just an example. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 8 20:40:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 21:40:07 -0400 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On May 8, 2010, at 9:34 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I thought we were in such a horrible recession... seems like people > have a lot of disposable income lately... > > $25,000 Kenbak > $31,000 Atari 2600 "Air Raid" boxed Cartridge > $41,000 Rare Nintendo cartridge The rich don't care that we're (practically) in a depression...why would they? They're still rich. You and I don't have two dimes to rub together, but what do they care? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 20:46:36 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 20:46:36 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE613FC.4010105@oldskool.org> On 5/8/2010 3:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> You're a hardware guy :) > > Correct. But I don't see what differece that makes. It means we can never come to agreement on the subject. You're a hardware guy, so naturally you consider the bit-ness of a CPU to be the size of the data bus. I'm a software guy, so I consider the bit-ness to be the size of the registers (ALU for the anal among us). So never the twain shall meet, I guess. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 8 20:51:08 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 20:51:08 -0500 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net>,<4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Subject: Re: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 > Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 21:38:57 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On May 8, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Wow .... with 20 seconds to go, it jumped from 9900 to 20100, then > >> with > >> five seconds to go it jumped to 25600, then ended. > > > > I can appreciate some degree of added value for this particular > > unit giving > > it's direct providence to Blankenbaker, and as much I might think > > the Kenbak is > > neat for technical reasons such as a minimal processor made from > > SSI/MSI > > devices, bit-serial architecture, and so on, this is one where I > > really scratch > > my head over the dollar value people are placing on them, given > > their obscurity > > in their day and relative lack of influence on computing development. > > (just MHO ...) > > > Apparently other people have different ideas of why it's > important. Lack of commonality and lack of influence in the future > are only two possible things that one might find important. > > Why am I a PDP-11 fanatic? Because I LIKE them, nothing more. I > couldn't care less about the fact that it was an influential > architecture with common implementations. This is just an example. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Anybody consider the fact/possibility that these auctions are not real? Rare does not equate to value. Heck, smack myself, 15 years ago I put 8 19" ISC InterColor on the sidewalk for the trash. Wish I had one or two back now. Somebody perhaps loves this stuff, just to look at it. I think the group here more likely USES IT, in the form of restoration of the hardware or emulation of the code if there is no (or cant afford) the hardware. Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 20:50:39 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 20:50:39 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE59DBF.8020805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE614EF.4000603@oldskool.org> On 5/8/2010 1:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Jim, I really believe this just isn't as cut-and-dried as you say it is. I guess not! But I reserve the right to smack anyone with a large salmon caught describing an 80386sx as a 16-bit processor. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 8 20:58:10 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 19:58:10 -0600 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE614EF.4000603@oldskool.org> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE59DBF.8020805@oldskool.org> <4BE614EF.4000603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE616B2.8060107@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > On 5/8/2010 1:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Jim, I really believe this just isn't as cut-and-dried as you say it is. > > I guess not! > > But I reserve the right to smack anyone with a large salmon caught > describing an 80386sx as a 16-bit processor. With pre-fix bytes how long was a op-code again? That makes it a **** x 8 bit computer. :) Ben. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 8 21:01:00 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 21:01:00 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE616B2.8060107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE59DBF.8020805@oldskool.org> <4BE614EF.4000603@oldskool.org> <4BE616B2.8060107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BE6175C.6090800@oldskool.org> On 5/8/2010 8:58 PM, Ben wrote: >> But I reserve the right to smack anyone with a large salmon caught >> describing an 80386sx as a 16-bit processor. > > With pre-fix bytes how long was a op-code again? > That makes it a **** x 8 bit computer. > :) > Ben. Argh! :-) True, 32-bit ops in 16-bit real mode was a PITA. One of the reasons a colleague of mine wrote his own DOS extender is because he could only afford a 386sx-16 and was tired of 32-bit operations requiring a 0x66 or 0x67 prefix byte, which slowed things down as it was more data to transfer across the 16-bit bus. In 32-bit protected mode, you don't need the prefix bytes... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 8 21:30:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 22:30:34 -0400 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net>, <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: On May 8, 2010, at 9:51 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: >> Apparently other people have different ideas of why it's >> important. Lack of commonality and lack of influence in the future >> are only two possible things that one might find important. >> >> Why am I a PDP-11 fanatic? Because I LIKE them, nothing more. I >> couldn't care less about the fact that it was an influential >> architecture with common implementations. This is just an example. > > Anybody consider the fact/possibility that these auctions are not > real? Umm...no? > Rare does not equate to value. Heck, smack myself, 15 years ago I > put 8 19" ISC InterColor on the sidewalk for the trash. > > Wish I had one or two back now. Yeah really. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 8 21:31:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 22:31:24 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE614EF.4000603@oldskool.org> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org> <4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org> <4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net> <4BE59DBF.8020805@oldskool.org> <4BE614EF.4000603@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On May 8, 2010, at 9:50 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Jim, I really believe this just isn't as cut-and-dried as you say >> it is. > > I guess not! > > But I reserve the right to smack anyone with a large salmon caught > describing an 80386sx as a 16-bit processor. Yes, me too. As long as nobody asks either of us "why". We KNOW that it's a 32-bit processor, but as we've proven over the past few days, it's not easy to quantify exactly why. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 8 22:46:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 20:46:06 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE613FC.4010105@oldskool.org> References: , <4BE613FC.4010105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE5CD8E.10458.27F918D@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2010 at 20:46, Jim Leonard wrote: > It means we can never come to agreement on the subject. You're a > hardware guy, so naturally you consider the bit-ness of a CPU to be > the size of the data bus. I'm a software guy, so I consider the > bit-ness to be the size of the registers (ALU for the anal among us). So, the National SC/MP and RCA 1802 were 1-bit microprocessors? That's sure to start a fight somewhere... --Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Sat May 8 23:01:33 2010 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 21:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE5CD8E.10458.27F918D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BE613FC.4010105@oldskool.org> <4BE5CD8E.10458.27F918D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 20:46:06 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof > > On 8 May 2010 at 20:46, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> It means we can never come to agreement on the subject. You're a >> hardware guy, so naturally you consider the bit-ness of a CPU to be >> the size of the data bus. I'm a software guy, so I consider the >> bit-ness to be the size of the registers (ALU for the anal among us). > > So, the National SC/MP and RCA 1802 were 1-bit microprocessors? > That's sure to start a fight somewhere... > > --Chuck > Hey, thats not as bad as the definition of processor size = external data bus width, with that definition, an microcontroller would be a 0 bit machine... Peter Wallace From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 8 23:07:10 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 23:07:10 -0500 Subject: Procom CD Tower - drivers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > How about blueray drives? ?:-) They make SCSI-1 Blu-Ray drives? ;) From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 00:21:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 22:21:45 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: , <4BE5CD8E.10458.27F918D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BE5E3F9.8961.2D72441@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2010 at 21:01, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Hey, thats not as bad as the definition of processor size = external > data bus width, with that definition, an microcontroller would be a 0 > bit machine... Wasn't there an implementation of one of the 6800 MPUs with a bit- serial ALU? --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 9 01:58:07 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 23:58:07 -0700 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4BE65D00.DACFE35@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 8, 2010, at 9:30 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Wow .... with 20 seconds to go, it jumped from 9900 to 20100, then > >> with > >> five seconds to go it jumped to 25600, then ended. > > > > I can appreciate some degree of added value for this particular > > unit giving > > it's direct providence to Blankenbaker, and as much I might think > > the Kenbak is > > neat for technical reasons such as a minimal processor made from > > SSI/MSI > > devices, bit-serial architecture, and so on, this is one where I > > really scratch > > my head over the dollar value people are placing on them, given > > their obscurity > > in their day and relative lack of influence on computing development. > > (just MHO ...) > > Apparently other people have different ideas of why it's > important. Lack of commonality and lack of influence in the future > are only two possible things that one might find important. Yes, yes; other people have different values, etc., that's well and fine, but it doesn't answer what values are being applied to the kenbak to give it such a high dollar value (it's not just one or two individuals). I understand there is some claim, by some definition, to it being the 'first' 'personal computer', and it has it's place in computing history; but in context of the period, other items from the period, etc., it strikes me as idiosyncratically high. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun May 9 04:28:42 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 10:28:42 +0100 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9 May 2010, at 00:02, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:26:17 -0400 > From: Dan Gahlinger > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > technically, looms count, they have to, to know how many times to do a particular pattern. > that would make such programming language back into the 17th century at least ;) I think you have missed the point that this is a discussion of high level languages. I have not heard that any 17th century loom had a high level language. > >> Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 01:00:14 -0600 >> From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca >> To: >> Subject: Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN >> >> Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>> Fortran the first high-level language, I think that would be open to >>> debate. Indeed, wikipedia says otherwise... and I quote: >>> >>> The first high-level programming language to be designed for a >>> computer was Plankalk?l, developed for the German Z3 by Konrad Zuse >>> between 1943 and 1945. >>> >>> LISP, COBOL and Algol are also mentioned during the 1950s, so "first" >>> is perhaps debateable. Do we count the programmable "Looms" ? >> >> Only if they can count. :) >> >>> There are questions I can't answer at this time. I can just say, from >>> memory, Valtrep was more "primitive" than Fortran, and yet, very >>> "fortran-like", as I said, if you could program Fortran, Valtrep >>> would be easy to pick up. >> It seems to me unlikely, that you would have any other high level >> programs other than a possible assembler and link loader with a few >> odd utility closed subroutines. >> >>> I can't find any information on it, nor can I find any information on >>> the computer system it ran on (that's bad). >>> >>> so to be fair, I'll mark this and file it as "questionable"/"suspect" >>> until some evidence can be shown either way. >> >>> Dan. >>> _________________________________________________________________ Win >>> a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. >>> http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 >> > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun May 9 04:58:20 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 10:58:20 +0100 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9 May 2010, at 00:02, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 28 > Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 15:12:25 +0100 > From: "Andrew Burton" > Subject: Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e at user8459cef6fa> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 11:08 PM > Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > >> >> I taught beginning FORTRAN in the 1980s at Merritt College (community >> college), and would not mind doing it again, if we could get a quorum for >> the classes. >> COBOL is gone from our curriculum :-( >> RPG is gone from our curriculum :-) >> FORTRAN is gone from our curriculum :-( >> APL is gone from our curriculum :-( >> BASIC is gone from our curriculum :-( >> The administration has cancelled C >> The administration has cancelled C# >> The administration has cancelled ASM >> We are down to "Using Microsoft Office", "VISUAL BASIC", >> and C++ (slated for cancellation soon) >> >> The CIS departments are circling the drain. >> > > That sucks. Indeed. > I am *so* glad I never went on to further education after > secondary school. I have learnt more on my own (thanks to books, people on > this list and retro computers) than I ever would have in *modern courses*. A > piece of paper doesn't make me a good coder, good software written by me > does. Fair enough but I am glad that I took a computer science degree (1971-74), though I must say that some of the people on my course who got better grade degrees used to come to me for advice when their programs did not work. There is now a degrading of the term programming to include entering data on things like an on board computer of a car to configuring spreadsheets and designing web pages. > How can BASIC not be taught? Every computer has it's own version of BASIC, Sorry I have to disagree there. There are MANY computers including modern ones which do not support BASIC. If you restrict it to modern desktop and laptop machines then you are probably correct but you are ignoring many pre 1980 machines and nearly all the embedded computers like PIC chips. A better choice would be C with the 1999 extensions. C++ is a good language but probably not for beginners as it is to easy to write opaque programs which beginners seem to think are good code because they are clever. As I hope all here would agree, a good program is the simplest you can write to do the required task, and that will mean it is easy to maintain (given adequate variable/function/method names and comments for the concepts you woke up with in the middle of the night). Or Pascal. I think almost any block structured language is better for beginners than Basic. > whereas (as I understand it) Visual Basic is only available for modern > computers. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun May 9 05:44:01 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 11:44:01 +0100 Subject: Processor sizes (was Greatest videogame device) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <059844CF-05E8-4FA3-904B-FE69E7203E19@microspot.co.uk> On 9 May 2010, at 00:02, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 24 > Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 13:37:11 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin > Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: > thebeginningof > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <20100508132544.P80526 at shell.lmi.net> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > On Sat, 8 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Is the size of the data bus irrelevant? >>>> (There have been people who maintain that THAT is the measure of the >>>> processor!) >>> >>> They're wrong :-). The "size" of the CPU is defined by the size of the >>> internal registers. I am astonished there is actual discussion debating >>> this. >> >> Ah, so a Z80 is a 16 bit processor (IX, IY, SP and PC are all 16 bits, >> and there is no documented way to use half of them (Yes I do know about >> some of the undocumented ways)). >> >>> >>> I think people who maintain the size of the data bus as being the >>> measure of a CPU are hardware people who have never optimized an inner >>> loop in machine code. No I am first and foremost a programmer who has picked up hardware by buying an old mainframe (before home computers existed) and maintaining it. The 'largest addressable unit of storage' I was taught in my computer science degree is now outdated. I have read many specifications issued by microprocessor manufacturers (who should know what they are talking about surely) who define their computers by their data bus width, for instance Intel define the 8088 as an 8 bit computers system. It the chip maker says their chip is an 8 bit processor why should it become a 16 bit computer when you merely plug that chip into a motherboard and the marketing people call it 16 bit. >> >> Conversely I could claim that those who calim the 8088 is a 16 bit >> processor have never wire-wrapped the data bus connections to one, and >> found there are only 8 to wire up. > > The problem remains that we are trying to come up with a single > quantification for measuring something with multiple variable > characteristics. Yes, and there are other aspects to be considered too. Whilst I have always thought of my ICT1301 as a 48 bit computer because it has a 48 (+ 2 parity) bit data bus but the engineers of the day called it a 4/12 system meaning 4 bits parallel x 12 digits serial. The mill (ALU) is only 4 bits wide but the three arithmetic registers are 48 bits and it had three 24 bit 'control' registers which hold instructions and it has no program counter register at all. > If we were to grossly oversimplify, > and use the most "popular" quantifiers, > we would still have two characteristics to measure. > the 8080 is 8 bit software, 8 bit hardware > the 8088 is 16 bit software, 8 bit hardware. > the 8086 is 16 bit software, 16 bit hardware. > the 80286 is 16 bit software, 16 bit hardware. > the 80386SX is 32 bit software, 16 bit hardware. > the 80386DX is 32 bit software, 32 bit hardware. > the Sentry-70 is unknown. > > But this does not invalidate the measuring systems used for different > types, and it is still trivially easy to come up with defensible ways to > measure with different end results. We should consider what the bit size is used for. To users they expect speed to increase with size. An 8088 and an 8086 or a 68008, 68000 and 68020/30/40 have the same internal architecture but the speed of operation is not the same, the cpu has to go to make more memory accesses with a narrower data bus. This does affect speed and to the poster who referred to "hardware people who have never optimized an inner loop in machine code" I should point out that if he optimised his loop on a machine with an 8 bit data bus and expects that the loop will still be optimal on a 16, 32 or 64 bit data bus processor then he is almost certainly wrong. It won't be far off, and MIGHT be optimal but until you do that again (As I have done MANY times) you cannot be sure it could not be tweaked to give a more optimal loop on a wider data bus width. Even turning off the cache memory can make a bit difference, and on one memory occasion I found that emulated 68k assembler running on a PowerPC ran quicker than the same code re-written in native C on the same PowerPC processor. The code was simply for rotating a one bit deep bit map 90 degrees and after looking in great detail at the generated PPC code the only explanation I could come up with was that the possibility that the 68k emulator turned off the RAM cache which meant that when my code wanted to read a word the PPC was doing four memory accesses to load up the entire cache line, three of which were pointless because for a large bitmap they would be purged before the other three were used, whereas the 68k emulator just did one memory access. I imaging the emulator locked the cache so its own code would not be purged. Roger Holmes. > > > Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", > "mainframe"? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 10:24:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 11:24:49 -0400 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <4BE65D00.DACFE35@cs.ubc.ca> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE65D00.DACFE35@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <900E678C-8AFE-44BF-9F5A-EB542A01CF2A@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2010, at 2:58 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> Wow .... with 20 seconds to go, it jumped from 9900 to 20100, then >>>> with >>>> five seconds to go it jumped to 25600, then ended. >>> >>> I can appreciate some degree of added value for this particular >>> unit giving >>> it's direct providence to Blankenbaker, and as much I might think >>> the Kenbak is >>> neat for technical reasons such as a minimal processor made from >>> SSI/MSI >>> devices, bit-serial architecture, and so on, this is one where I >>> really scratch >>> my head over the dollar value people are placing on them, given >>> their obscurity >>> in their day and relative lack of influence on computing >>> development. >>> (just MHO ...) >> >> Apparently other people have different ideas of why it's >> important. Lack of commonality and lack of influence in the future >> are only two possible things that one might find important. > > Yes, yes; other people have different values, etc., that's well and > fine, > but it doesn't answer what values are being applied to the kenbak > to give > it such a high dollar value (it's not just one or two individuals). > > I understand there is some claim, by some definition, to it being > the 'first' > 'personal computer', and it has it's place in computing history; > but in context > of the period, other items from the period, etc., it strikes me as > idiosyncratically high. Well, fifty bucks would be "idiosyncratically high" for this list, you've gotta admit. ;) All I'm saying is that value is determined by the buyer and the rest of us don't necessarily know their reasoning and don't really have any room to say they're wrong. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 9 10:26:09 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 11:26:09 -0400 Subject: Procom CD Tower - drivers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201005091126.09821.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 09 May 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > > How about blueray drives? :-) > > They make SCSI-1 Blu-Ray drives? ;) > For only $139, you can get an ACARD SCSI to SATA converter. http://www.pc-pitstop.com/scsi_ide_adapters/ Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 10:45:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 11:45:33 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > There is now a degrading of the term programming to include > entering data on things like an on board computer of a car to > configuring spreadsheets and designing web pages. This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness abounds. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From fryers at gmail.com Sun May 9 11:02:27 2010 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:02:27 +0000 Subject: Looking for a vintage computer for film in Oz... In-Reply-To: References: <4BDDE243.17204.263C325@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: G'Day, On 7 May 2010 03:07, Nigel Williams wrote: > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:56 PM, Simon Fryer wrote: > >> > http://aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/Images/InventHiRes/IBM360.jpg >> >> Ahhh. That photo.... I am the one in the hat. [...] > Hi Simon, is there a story to tell about the 360/40 rescue? Not really. I can only really comment about modern history... The photo was taken in early 1997. I was a fresher in 1995. The University Computer Club[1] (UCC) at the University of Western Australia was given Ben (the IBM 360) some time long before I started university. I am lead to believe that it was stored behind the scenes at one of the theaters at UWA before the theater was knocked down / modernised. At some point the UCC acquired some storage space offsite from UWA. When the theater was modernised Ben was moved to the storage space. At the time the photo was taken UWA needed everything removed from the storage space to undertake some repairs on the building. Not long after that UWA started charging for the use of the storage space. In short, the UCC lost a lot of equipment. Tony started took a lot of the more historically interesting equipment and put it into storage on his property in Rivervale (Western Australia). When Tony moved to Mundaring (Western Australia) Ben was put into a shipping container for storage until he had his shed built. To my knowledge Ben is now somewhere in his shed. This is the story to my knowledge.... [1] The University Computer Club pre-dates the computer science department at UWA by a couple of years. http://www.ucc.asn.au Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 9 11:32:40 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 11:32:40 -0500 Subject: Procom CD Tower - drivers? In-Reply-To: <201005091126.09821.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201005091126.09821.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > For only $139, you can get an ACARD SCSI to SATA converter. > > http://www.pc-pitstop.com/scsi_ide_adapters/ Nice - so I'd only need seven of those to make myself a sweet SCSI-I Blu-Ray tower that can't feed data fast enough to play a Blu-Ray movie. I'm on it! From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 9 12:17:11 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 12:17:11 -0500 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201005091723.o49HNepk005254@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:45 AM 5/9/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML >programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness >abounds. You have a better term for the hodgepodge of tools and languages used in contemporary webs? Maybe "web developer"? Who gets hired for knowing only HTML and not any ancillary language to go along with it? - John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 9 12:32:00 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 10:32:00 -0700 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE65D00.DACFE35@cs.ubc.ca> <900E678C-8AFE-44BF-9F5A-EB542A01CF2A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE6F18E.58FD0F71@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On May 9, 2010, at 2:58 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > ... > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Apparently other people have different ideas of why it's > >> important. Lack of commonality and lack of influence in the future > >> are only two possible things that one might find important. > > > > Yes, yes; other people have different values, etc., that's well and > > fine, > > but it doesn't answer what values are being applied to the kenbak > > to give > > it such a high dollar value (it's not just one or two individuals). > > > > I understand there is some claim, by some definition, to it being > > the 'first' > > 'personal computer', and it has it's place in computing history; > > but in context > > of the period, other items from the period, etc., it strikes me as > > idiosyncratically high. > > Well, fifty bucks would be "idiosyncratically high" for this list, > you've gotta admit. ;) > > All I'm saying is that value is determined by the buyer and the > rest of us don't necessarily know their reasoning and don't really > have any room to say they're wrong. .. which I'm allowing for, I'm not saying they are 'wrong'. I see from web pages that the (Boston) Computer Museum declared it the 'first personal computer'. To phrase it as a question, one could ask were it not for that declaration from a 'recognised' institution, would it have near the dollar valuations that it is receiving? Idle musing, I was interested in asking for examples of programs - period or new - that have been written for and executed on the kenbak. In answer, I see on Erik Klein's page there is some mention of programs, including Blankenbaker's own 3D tic-tac-toe which just squeezed into the 256 bytes of memory. Further idle musing, does anyone have some figures for how much a Busicom calculator using a 4004 has sold for in recent years? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 12:37:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 13:37:18 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005091723.o49HNepk005254@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <201005091723.o49HNepk005254@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <09524597-65C8-48FB-809A-234BAC09F713@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2010, at 1:17 PM, John Foust wrote: >> This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML >> programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness >> abounds. > > You have a better term for the hodgepodge of tools and languages > used in contemporary webs? Maybe "web developer"? Yes, that term is accurate. It is not programming. > Who gets hired for knowing only HTML and not any ancillary language > to go along with it? Actually, very few people get hired for even knowing HTML, because most web developers don't know HTML. The vast majority of HTML on the WWW today, easily 95% is program-generated. I'm not talking about dynamic sites, I'm talking about authoring tools like Dreamweaver. Writing HTML in an editor is considered "old school" and today's web developers call it, incorrectly, "programming". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 12:37:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 10:37:36 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005091723.o49HNepk005254@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com>, <201005091723.o49HNepk005254@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4BE69070.6325.71AB6D@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2010 at 12:17, John Foust wrote: > You have a better term for the hodgepodge of tools and languages > used in contemporary webs? Maybe "web developer"? Who gets hired for > knowing only HTML and not any ancillary language to go along with it? "Hodgepodge" is exactly the right term. How much of the web is actually HTML 1.0-viewable now? Has anyone tried doing any meaningful web browsing with an old copy of Mosaic? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 12:40:43 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 13:40:43 -0400 Subject: Procom CD Tower - drivers? In-Reply-To: References: <201005091126.09821.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <40948F27-6C65-417B-BE8D-EA5B82A7ACB9@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2010, at 12:32 PM, Jason T wrote: >> For only $139, you can get an ACARD SCSI to SATA converter. >> >> http://www.pc-pitstop.com/scsi_ide_adapters/ > > Nice - so I'd only need seven of those to make myself a sweet SCSI-I > Blu-Ray tower that can't feed data fast enough to play a Blu-Ray > movie. I'm on it! Really? What's the required data rate? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 9 11:57:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 17:57:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 8, 10 03:12:25 pm Message-ID: > > I taught beginning FORTRAN in the 1980s at Merritt College (community > > college), and would not mind doing it again, if we could get a quorum for > > the classes. > > COBOL is gone from our curriculum :-( > > RPG is gone from our curriculum :-) > > FORTRAN is gone from our curriculum :-( > > APL is gone from our curriculum :-( > > BASIC is gone from our curriculum :-( > > The administration has cancelled C > > The administration has cancelled C# > > The administration has cancelled ASM WOuld anybody mind if I cancelled the administration ? Painfully? > > We are down to "Using Microsoft Office", "VISUAL BASIC", > > and C++ (slated for cancellation soon) > > > > The CIS departments are circling the drain. > > > > That sucks. I am *so* glad I never went on to further education after > secondary school. I have learnt more on my own (thanks to books, people on > this list and retro computers) than I ever would have in *modern courses*. A As I have said many times before, I leant nothing useful at school. The fact that I didn;t have one clueful mathementics of physics teacher may have something to do with that. That $deity I had access to interesting books... [Oh, I learnt plenty of things while I was at school. Like how to pick a lock, how to make a master key, how to design state machines, and the like. But that was not what I was supposed to be learning). > piece of paper doesn't make me a good coder, good software written by me > does. Too much emphassis is placed on paper qualifications these days... It's a problem for me, since I don't have any particularly relevant ones. Lack of these bits of paper does not mean you can't do the job, conversely having them doesn't mean you can... Oh well... > > How can BASIC not be taught? Every computer has it's own version of BASIC, > whereas (as I understand it) Visual Basic is only available for modern > computers. I agree with the statemetn that 'every child should learn to program. Not because they will become programmer,s but becuase programming teaches you to think logically about solving problems and to break up problems into simple steps'/ Or something like that anyway... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 9 11:59:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 17:59:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 10 01:37:11 pm Message-ID: > Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", > "mainframe"? If you lose your screwdrive inside it, it's a micro. If you lose your multimeter inside it, it's a mini. If you lose your 'scope inside it, it's a mainframe. And if you lose yourself iniside it, it's a supercomputer. :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 9 12:01:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:01:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BE5CEFF.2010209@soznet.net> from "John Von Draugr" at May 8, 10 04:52:15 pm Message-ID: > So...Anyone watch that NY Yankees vs Boston Redsox game last night? What > a game. Lets start talking about it as I LOVE sports! *Haha* If you're going to talk about a version of rounders (which over here is mostlu played by schoolgirls), then please do it in the right place. More seriously, while I beleive in the right of freedom of speech, I also feel that with that right comes the responsibility to speak in the right place. There must be mailing lists for just about every aspect of every sport you can name, but this is not one of them. Please can we stick to classic computers (and somewhat related topics). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 9 12:05:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:05:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE5735C.14033.11F4022@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 8, 10 02:21:16 pm Message-ID: > Actually, almost all modern x86 systems have a 14.31818MHz master > clock. It's usually first multiplied up by a PLL chip (e.g. > PI6C104), then further multiplied by an on-chip PLL in the CPU. > > So all x86 systems since the PII are 14.31818MHz systems? OK, so if I buy a 2GHz PC, what signal is that 2GHz describing? And how does it relate to signals I can measure? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 9 12:15:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:15:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE613FC.4010105@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at May 8, 10 08:46:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/8/2010 3:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> You're a hardware guy :) > > > > Correct. But I don't see what differece that makes. > > It means we can never come to agreement on the subject. You're a > hardware guy, so naturally you consider the bit-ness of a CPU to be the > size of the data bus. I'm a software guy, so I consider the bit-ness to > be the size of the registers (ALU for the anal among us). So never the > twain shall meet, I guess. BINGO! You've got it... The whole point is that it is (IMHO) meaningless to quote a 'number of bits' for a processor and have it meaningful in all situations. Sure an 8088 is normally classed as a 16 bit processor, and I normally class it as one. But when I am wiring up the databus, or when I am debugging the hardware of my IBM5150 or HP150, then I need to know there are only 8 data lines. My P850, with its row of 16 toggle swithcs on the panel, with registers that appear to me 16 bits wide, with 16+16 bit add instructions, etc is a 16 bit machine most of the time. That is until I start working inside the CPU and find there's only an 8 bit ALU there.My TRS-80 Model 4 is an 8-bit machine (Z80A), but I still have 16+16 bit add instructions. But only an 8 bit data bus. And so on. Now, what's a PERQ? THe ALU is 20 bits wide, but the main memory data bus is only 16 bits wide. The most efficient memory accessses read 64 bits from 4 memory locations in one go, and then transfer them to the CPU on 4 consequtive microcode sycles. I normally consider it to be a 20 bit machine (ALU and procesosr register width), but that doesn't seem to be the only sensible bit-count. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 9 12:29:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:29:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE5CD8E.10458.27F918D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 8, 10 08:46:06 pm Message-ID: > So, the National SC/MP and RCA 1802 were 1-bit microprocessors? I've heard this said about the SC/MP before, but the data sheet shows an 8-bit parallel ALU. Do you have any docuemtnation which claims it's bit-serial? > That's sure to start a fight somewhere... If you take the ALU size, then the P850 becomes an 8-bit machine (everybody considers it to be 16 bits, which is the logical size to a proggrammer). And what size is the HP9830? The ALU in there is bit-serial form binary operations and 4 bits wide for BCD operations. As I hope we've all seen by now, you often can't quote a single 'bit count' for a machine that's applicable in all cases. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 9 13:21:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 19:21:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: from "Roger Holmes" at May 9, 10 10:58:20 am Message-ID: > There is now a degrading of the term programming to include entering = > data on things like an on board computer of a car to configuring = > spreadsheets and designing web pages. I (and every other hardware person I know) would use the term 'programming an EPROM' to mean 'loading the bytes into it', even if what we are loading is, say, the pattens for a character generator. However, in the context of 'learning to program' or 'learnign programming' or whatever, I think it should imply learning to use a turing-complete (apart from memroy size :-)) language. There are plenty to choose from. It should also cover the much more inportant questions of how to choose an algorithm, how to split up a problem into logical steps, and so on. If you can do that you can probably learn just aobut any language in an afternoon. > > > > How can BASIC not be taught? Every computer has it's own version of = > BASIC, > > Sorry I have to disagree there. There are MANY computers including = > modern ones which do not support BASIC. If you restrict it to modern = > desktop and laptop machines then you are probably correct but you are = > ignoring many pre 1980 machines and nearly all the embedded computers = > like PIC chips. I thought the BASIC STAMP was essentially a PIC containing a run-time interpretter and a cross-compiler (BAIC to the code to be interpretted) which runs on A PC. There's also a well-known BASIC for the 8052 and derivatives. > Or Pascal. I think almost any block structured language is better for = > beginners than Basic. There are block-structured versions of BASIC... I am not sure that the choice of language is that important. You can write clean, maintainable code in any language. You can write opaque spaghetti in any languag. And the real skills (mentioned earlier) are pretty much language-independant. -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun May 9 13:42:36 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 13:42:36 -0500 Subject: Procom CD Tower - drivers? In-Reply-To: References: <201005091126.09821.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 11:32 AM, Jason T wrote: > On Sun, May 9, 2010 at 10:26 AM, Patrick Finnegan > wrote: >> For only $139, you can get an ACARD SCSI to SATA converter. >> >> http://www.pc-pitstop.com/scsi_ide_adapters/ > > Nice - so I'd only need seven of those to make myself a sweet SCSI-I > Blu-Ray tower that can't feed data fast enough to play a Blu-Ray > movie. ?I'm on it! lol. I love projects like this. It feels like the floppy drive raid array. Of course it isn't exactly what I'd call a smart use of available dollars. lol ok, how about scsi-1 to ide to compact flash. You could have a CF card raid tower that's about 50 times larger than it needs to be. :-D brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 13:44:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 14:44:04 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 9, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", >> "mainframe"? > > If you lose your screwdrive inside it, it's a micro. If you lose your > multimeter inside it, it's a mini. If you lose your 'scope inside > it, it's > a mainframe. And if you lose yourself iniside it, it's a > supercomputer. > > :-) Good one. But most supercomputers are a good bit smaller than most mainframes. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 9 13:42:43 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 14:42:43 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <00c501caee3c$5649dc50$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BE3A355.8030903@oldskool.org><4BE3A681.2020107@neurotica.com> <4BE3A770.6050009@oldskool.org><4BE3A92D.2040808@neurotica.com> <20100506225444.G92924@shell.lmi.net><4BE3B015.7070107@neurotica.com> <20100507122715.S24632@shell.lmi.net><4395AF9C-C7DB-4B3C-AA37-6CD56AFE97FF@neurotica.com> <20100507133048.K26653@shell.lmi.net> <00c501caee3c$5649dc50$3427610a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BE70223.5070007@gmail.com> Andrew Burton wrote: >> Do you really think that we can successfully correct the meaning of >> "hackers"? > > About as much chance as correcting the modern mis-informed erm... non-geeks > about the terms billion and trillion. If you're talking about the long scale vs. short scale debate, it has nothing to do with being misinformed. It has more to do with "C-O-L-O-R" vs. "C-O-L-O-U-R". Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 13:45:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 14:45:11 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67BE64A8-7043-4E9F-B7E9-9F1FCFC35362@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2010, at 1:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> So...Anyone watch that NY Yankees vs Boston Redsox game last >> night? What >> a game. Lets start talking about it as I LOVE sports! *Haha* > > If you're going to talk about a version of rounders (which over > here is > mostlu played by schoolgirls), then please do it in the right place. It's played by schoolgirls here too, but most of them are disguised as men. They wear tights, and they spit and fondle themselves a lot. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 9 13:44:52 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 14:44:52 -0400 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4BE702A4.1010009@atarimuseum.com> Just walked past a pair of RX02's in the garage for the umpteenth time, and the thought came to me, could I get these badboys hooked up to my PC??? They are MFM format, should be feasible perhaps with a proper controller board... maybe. Anyone ever try such an endeavor? ...and have any success? Curt From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 13:55:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 14:55:59 -0400 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <4BE702A4.1010009@atarimuseum.com> References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> <4BE702A4.1010009@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On May 9, 2010, at 2:44 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Just walked past a pair of RX02's in the garage for the umpteenth > time, and the thought came to me, could I get these badboys hooked > up to my PC??? They are MFM format, should be feasible perhaps > with a proper controller board... maybe. > > Anyone ever try such an endeavor? ...and have any success? I've never tried it, but I know the RX01/RX02 interface pretty well. It's very easy; it's a bit-serial interface with a few control lines. One could easily control one with a microcontroller, or it *might* be able to be bit-banged with a parallel printer port. I've long considered building a USB<->RX interface; I might just do that soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 9 14:15:24 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 15:15:24 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 9, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: >> There is now a degrading of the term programming to include entering >> data on things like an on board computer of a car to configuring >> spreadsheets and designing web pages. > > This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML > programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness abounds. Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered programming constructs, no? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 9 14:20:11 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 15:20:11 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE70AEB.7020107@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 9, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", >>> "mainframe"? >> >> If you lose your screwdrive inside it, it's a micro. If you lose your >> multimeter inside it, it's a mini. If you lose your 'scope inside it, >> it's >> a mainframe. And if you lose yourself iniside it, it's a supercomputer. >> >> :-) > > Good one. But most supercomputers are a good bit smaller than most > mainframes. Yeah, but "losing yourself inside it" might refer to a mental or emotional condition. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 14:28:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 15:28:45 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 9, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> There is now a degrading of the term programming to include entering >>> data on things like an on board computer of a car to configuring >>> spreadsheets and designing web pages. >> >> This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML >> programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness >> abounds. > > Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered > programming constructs, no? I don't know, I haven't looked at them. Does it have variables, conditionals, and looping constructs? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 9 14:27:29 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 15:27:29 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BE70CA1.70409@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 9, 2010, at 3:15 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> There is now a degrading of the term programming to include entering >>>> data on things like an on board computer of a car to configuring >>>> spreadsheets and designing web pages. >>> >>> This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML >>> programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness abounds. >> >> Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered >> programming constructs, no? > > I don't know, I haven't looked at them. Does it have variables, > conditionals, and looping constructs? Variables, yes. Conditionals, yes. Looping, not sure. Have to go look. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 14:38:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 15:38:10 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE70CA1.70409@gmail.com> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> <4BE70CA1.70409@gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 9, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>>> There is now a degrading of the term programming to include >>>>> entering >>>>> data on things like an on board computer of a car to configuring >>>>> spreadsheets and designing web pages. >>>> >>>> This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML >>>> programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness >>>> abounds. >>> >>> Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered >>> programming constructs, no? >> >> I don't know, I haven't looked at them. Does it have variables, >> conditionals, and looping constructs? > > Variables, yes. Conditionals, yes. Looping, not sure. Have to go > look. Cool. In that case, I will happily acknowledge that anyone who writes such constructs correctly BY HAND in HTML5 is a "programmer", or at the very least, "a web developer who occasionally dabbles in programming". -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 9 14:47:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 20:47:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <4BE702A4.1010009@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at May 9, 10 02:44:52 pm Message-ID: > > Just walked past a pair of RX02's in the garage for the umpteenth time, > and the thought came to me, could I get these badboys hooked up to my > PC??? They are MFM format, should be feasible perhaps with a proper > controller board... maybe. > > Anyone ever try such an endeavor? ...and have any success? I've not done it, but it shouldn't' be that difficult. The contoller board is actually insife the RX02 chassis. The inteface back to the interface board in the Unibus/Qbus/Omnibus is a bit-serial one, timed from the RX02 end, and the interface board is essentially a shift register and a little logic. It should eb quite easy to recreate that and link it to a PC. -tony From segin2005 at gmail.com Sun May 9 14:50:59 2010 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 15:50:59 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> <4BE70CA1.70409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9EFB0E45-90A1-467E-8636-6F5C8B21566E@gmail.com> On 09May 2010, at 15:38 , Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 9, 2010, at 3:27 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >>>> >>>> Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered >>>> programming constructs, no? >>> >>> I don't know, I haven't looked at them. Does it have variables, >>> conditionals, and looping constructs? >> >> Variables, yes. Conditionals, yes. Looping, not sure. Have to go >> look. > > Cool. In that case, I will happily acknowledge that anyone who > writes such constructs correctly BY HAND in HTML5 is a "programmer", > or at the very least, "a web developer who occasionally dabbles in > programming". > > -Dave This leads me to wonder, what terms would you use for someone who specializes in computer languages for structuring and formatting data, such as HTML/CSS or Docbook XML (but not limited to these by any stretch) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 15:02:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:02:15 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <9EFB0E45-90A1-467E-8636-6F5C8B21566E@gmail.com> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> <4BE70CA1.70409@gmail.com> <9EFB0E45-90A1-467E-8636-6F5C8B21566E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2580AF76-032D-4EDD-96A7-3224F734C8A9@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: >>>>> Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered >>>>> programming constructs, no? >>>> >>>> I don't know, I haven't looked at them. Does it have variables, >>>> conditionals, and looping constructs? >>> >>> Variables, yes. Conditionals, yes. Looping, not sure. Have to >>> go look. >> >> Cool. In that case, I will happily acknowledge that anyone who >> writes such constructs correctly BY HAND in HTML5 is a >> "programmer", or at the very least, "a web developer who >> occasionally dabbles in programming". > > This leads me to wonder, what terms would you use for someone who > specializes in computer languages for structuring and formatting > data, such as HTML/CSS or Docbook XML (but not limited to these by > any stretch) Well, they're not programming languages, they're markup languages. Writing in a programming language is programming. Writing in a markup language is...marking up, perhaps? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 15:03:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 13:03:05 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE70223.5070007@gmail.com> References: , <00c501caee3c$5649dc50$3427610a@user8459cef6fa>, <4BE70223.5070007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BE6B289.14721.F6DB30@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2010 at 14:42, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Andrew Burton wrote: > >> Do you really think that we can successfully correct the meaning of > >> "hackers"? > > > > About as much chance as correcting the modern mis-informed erm... > > non-geeks about the terms billion and trillion. > > If you're talking about the long scale vs. short scale debate, it has > nothing to do with being misinformed. It has more to do with > "C-O-L-O-R" vs. "C-O-L-O-U-R". "Thousand million" is a good disambiguator that seems to be comprehesible on either side of the pond. At Wolfram Mathword, under the term "milliard": http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Milliard.html "In French and German usage, one milliard equals 10^9=1000000000. American usage does not have a number called the milliard, instead using the term billion to denote 10^9. British usage, while formerly using "milliard," has in recent years adopted the American convention (Mish 2003, p. 852). This constitutes a fortunate development for standardization of terminology, albeit a somewhat regrettable development from the point of view that the (former) British convention for representing large numbers is simpler and more logical than the American one. A terrible mathematical joke asks "What American President, with cities in California and Utah named after him, is associated in France and Germany with 10^9?" Answer: Milliard Fillmore (J. vos Post, pers. comm., Apr. 27, 2006). " --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 15:05:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 13:05:36 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: <4BE5735C.14033.11F4022@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 8, 10 02:21:16 pm, Message-ID: <4BE6B320.6756.F927EF@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2010 at 18:05, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, so if I buy a 2GHz PC, what signal is that 2GHz describing? And > how does it relate to signals I can measure? You can poke and prod all you want, but I believe that you won't find a pin on a Pentium 2GHz x86 with a 2GHz waveform on it. Just goes to show you how meaningless clock speed is. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 15:09:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 13:09:11 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 10 01:37:11 pm, Message-ID: <4BE6B3F7.31557.FC7390@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2010 at 17:59, Tony Duell wrote: > If you lose your screwdrive inside it, it's a micro. If you lose your > multimeter inside it, it's a mini. If you lose your 'scope inside it, > it's a mainframe. And if you lose yourself iniside it, it's a > supercomputer. Even in the "classic" supercomputer sense, I don't think you could fit inside of an ETA-10, nor could you stand the temperature, even with your warmest overcoat on. --Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun May 9 15:24:31 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 16:24:31 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <2580AF76-032D-4EDD-96A7-3224F734C8A9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <174068.51687.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> On Sun, 9 May 2010 16:02:15 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >On May 9, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: >>>>>> Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered >>>>>> programming constructs, no? >>>>> >>>>> I don't know, I haven't looked at them. Does it have variables, >>>>> conditionals, and looping constructs? >>>> >>>> Variables, yes. Conditionals, yes. Looping, not sure. Have to >>>> go look. >>> >>> Cool. In that case, I will happily acknowledge that anyone who >>> writes such constructs correctly BY HAND in HTML5 is a >>> "programmer", or at the very least, "a web developer who >>> occasionally dabbles in programming". >> >> This leads me to wonder, what terms would you use for someone who >> specializes in computer languages for structuring and formatting >> data, such as HTML/CSS or Docbook XML (but not limited to these by >> any stretch) > Well, they're not programming languages, they're markup >languages. Writing in a programming language is programming. >Writing in a markup language is...marking up, perhaps? > -Dave >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL "Codeing" cover both the markup component, as well as much of the scripting done these days that results in HTMLx being sent directly to the "eyeballs" in responce to a http: get or post command. on that note: Hacking/using/reformatting Javascript is codeing, createing new Javascript applications from scratch is programming. The Other Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 15:46:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:46:48 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <174068.51687.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <174068.51687.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On May 9, 2010, at 4:24 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: >>>>>>> Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered >>>>>>> programming constructs, no? >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know, I haven't looked at them. Does it have variables, >>>>>> conditionals, and looping constructs? >>>>> >>>>> Variables, yes. Conditionals, yes. Looping, not sure. Have to >>>>> go look. >>>> >>>> Cool. In that case, I will happily acknowledge that anyone who >>>> writes such constructs correctly BY HAND in HTML5 is a >>>> "programmer", or at the very least, "a web developer who >>>> occasionally dabbles in programming". >>> >>> This leads me to wonder, what terms would you use for someone who >>> specializes in computer languages for structuring and formatting >>> data, such as HTML/CSS or Docbook XML (but not limited to these by >>> any stretch) >> >> Well, they're not programming languages, they're markup >> languages. Writing in a programming language is programming. >> Writing in a markup language is...marking up, perhaps? > > "Codeing" cover both the markup component, as well as much of the > scripting done these days that results in > HTMLx being sent directly to the "eyeballs" in responce to a http: > get or post command. Hmm yes, I can get behind that. Coding (sp!) is a good term for this, and is common in other industries. > on that note: > > Hacking/using/reformatting Javascript is codeing, createing new > Javascript applications from scratch is > programming. But this, I can't quite get behind. Maybe not "using/ reformatting", but hacking Javascript is no less programming than is hacking C. Javascript is a full-fledged (and very complete!) programming language in every sense. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 9 16:02:22 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 17:02:22 -0400 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE722DE.60504@atarimuseum.com> Ersatz has an RX01 capable controller.... Tony Duell wrote: >> Just walked past a pair of RX02's in the garage for the umpteenth time, >> and the thought came to me, could I get these badboys hooked up to my >> PC??? They are MFM format, should be feasible perhaps with a proper >> controller board... maybe. >> >> Anyone ever try such an endeavor? ...and have any success? >> > > I've not done it, but it shouldn't' be that difficult. The contoller board > is actually insife the RX02 chassis. The inteface back to the interface > board in the Unibus/Qbus/Omnibus is a bit-serial one, timed from the RX02 > end, and the interface board is essentially a shift register and a little > logic. It should eb quite easy to recreate that and link it to a PC. > > -tony > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 16:07:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 17:07:19 -0400 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <4BE722DE.60504@atarimuseum.com> References: <4BE722DE.60504@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Huh? I thought that was a software-only product. -Dave On May 9, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Ersatz has an RX01 capable controller.... > > > > Tony Duell wrote: >>> Just walked past a pair of RX02's in the garage for the umpteenth >>> time, and the thought came to me, could I get these badboys >>> hooked up to my PC??? They are MFM format, should be feasible >>> perhaps with a proper controller board... maybe. >>> >>> Anyone ever try such an endeavor? ...and have any success? >>> >> >> I've not done it, but it shouldn't' be that difficult. The >> contoller board >> is actually insife the RX02 chassis. The inteface back to the >> interface >> board in the Unibus/Qbus/Omnibus is a bit-serial one, timed from >> the RX02 >> end, and the interface board is essentially a shift register and a >> little logic. It should eb quite easy to recreate that and link it >> to a PC. >> >> -tony >> >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 9 16:17:11 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 22:17:11 +0100 Subject: Unsticking an RD53 In-Reply-To: References: <-2143519730636855231@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <002c01caefbc$fecbce20$fc636a60$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steve Maddison > Sent: 27 April 2010 21:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Unsticking an RD53 > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > A while ago I posted about an RD53 I have which had the problem with > the > > sticking heads. I have now got to the point where the heads no longer > stick > > on the bumper, but the disk still does not work correctly. I opened > it up > > and watched what it did with the cover off. Once it gains speed it > moves the > > heads out all the way and then they just stay there with the disk > spinning. > > FWIW, I have one that does exactly the same. It is however also a > non-runner, so I can't tell you whether that's correct behaviour or > not. It certainly /sounds/ the same as my other, working example. > When I attached my RD53 to a controller there was a bit more movement of the heads after a while. I found that sometimes TEST 71 (the disk verifier on my MicroVAX 2000) would detect the size of the disk and other times it would not. Moving the disk and opening the cover seemed to make it work again. While it had the cover off I formatted the disk with TEST 70, and, so far, it has worked well since. > > There is a whine coming from the drive, not sure of the source of > this > > though. > > Mine had that too. Not sure where it came from, but it stopped when I > retightened one of the corner HDA mountings (the ones with the rubber > bushes underneath). Thanks for the tip, I fiddled with the mounting until the noise almost stopped. I can't help thinking that this also helped make the disk work, perhaps it was affecting the speed of rotation (wild guess, I don't know really) because the noise was really quite bad. It still makes a noise intermittently now, lasts about 1 second and occurs every 20-30 seconds. > > Cheers, > > -- > Steve Maddison > http://www.cosam.org/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 9 16:30:10 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 17:30:10 -0400 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: References: <4BE722DE.60504@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4BE72962.3000008@atarimuseum.com> http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html Dave McGuire wrote: > > Huh? I thought that was a software-only product. > > -Dave > > On May 9, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Ersatz has an RX01 capable controller.... >> >> >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Just walked past a pair of RX02's in the garage for the umpteenth >>>> time, and the thought came to me, could I get these badboys hooked >>>> up to my PC??? They are MFM format, should be feasible perhaps >>>> with a proper controller board... maybe. >>>> >>>> Anyone ever try such an endeavor? ...and have any success? >>>> >>> >>> I've not done it, but it shouldn't' be that difficult. The contoller >>> board >>> is actually insife the RX02 chassis. The inteface back to the interface >>> board in the Unibus/Qbus/Omnibus is a bit-serial one, timed from the >>> RX02 >>> end, and the interface board is essentially a shift register and a >>> little logic. It should eb quite easy to recreate that and link it >>> to a PC. >>> >>> -tony >>> >>> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 16:35:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 17:35:52 -0400 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <4BE72962.3000008@atarimuseum.com> References: <4BE722DE.60504@atarimuseum.com> <4BE72962.3000008@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <85E531E1-95F1-419C-8745-575FCD9D8C6D@neurotica.com> OH oh oh yes, that. I think you mean "Dbit has.." but at any rate that doesn't control RX01/RX02 drives, but it is an adapter that allows one to connect generic 8" drives and real RX50 drives to a PC controller. Bit of a different animal. -Dave On May 9, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html > > > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Huh? I thought that was a software-only product. >> >> -Dave >> >> On May 9, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> Ersatz has an RX01 capable controller.... >>> >>> >>> >>> Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> Just walked past a pair of RX02's in the garage for the >>>>> umpteenth time, and the thought came to me, could I get these >>>>> badboys hooked up to my PC??? They are MFM format, should be >>>>> feasible perhaps with a proper controller board... maybe. >>>>> >>>>> Anyone ever try such an endeavor? ...and have any success? >>>>> >>>> >>>> I've not done it, but it shouldn't' be that difficult. The >>>> contoller board >>>> is actually insife the RX02 chassis. The inteface back to the >>>> interface >>>> board in the Unibus/Qbus/Omnibus is a bit-serial one, timed from >>>> the RX02 >>>> end, and the interface board is essentially a shift register and >>>> a little logic. It should eb quite easy to recreate that and >>>> link it to a PC. >>>> >>>> -tony >>>> >>>> >> >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 16:40:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 14:40:23 -0700 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <85E531E1-95F1-419C-8745-575FCD9D8C6D@neurotica.com> References: , <4BE72962.3000008@atarimuseum.com>, <85E531E1-95F1-419C-8745-575FCD9D8C6D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE6C957.23431.14FF1B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2010 at 17:35, Dave McGuire wrote: > that doesn't control RX01/RX02 drives, but it is an adapter that > allows one to connect generic 8" drives and real RX50 drives to a PC > controller. Bit of a different animal. ...and while this might work for RX01 disks, it won't for double- density RX02 disks, which use a DEC-unique variant of MFM. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 9 16:51:55 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 14:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100509143631.L22790@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The administration has cancelled ASM > WOuld anybody mind if I cancelled the administration ? Painfully? The administration offices are on the fourth floor, amenable to defenestration. Last XMAS, they had a potlock in the basement auditorium, making a cask of Amontillado a viable option. > As I have said many times before, I leant nothing useful at school. The > fact that I didn;t have one clueful mathementics of physics teacher may > have something to do with that. That $deity I had access to interesting > books... You don't want to get me started on what they are trying to do to the library. ""Kernighan & Ritchie" and "Knuth" are more than five years old, they should be replaced with something more current!" I used to use astronomy as a counter argument, but now they think that ALL of those must be replaced to reflect Pluto's "demotion". > [Oh, I learnt plenty of things while I was at school. Like how to pick a > lock, how to make a master key, how to design state machines, and the > like. But that was not what I was supposed to be learning). "supposed to be"?? A good teacher doesn't REALLY mind deviating a little from the lesson plan. > Too much emphassis is placed on paper qualifications these days... It's a > problem for me, since I don't have any particularly relevant ones. Lack > of these bits of paper does not mean you can't do the job, conversely > having them doesn't mean you can... Oh well... College administrators who know that they will be laid off someday assign THEMSELVES credentials! Then they can be re-assigned to teach when nobody above them has the guts to fire them! REALLY! > I agree with the statemetn that 'every child should learn to program. Not > because they will become programmer,s but becuase programming teaches you > to think logically about solving problems and to break up problems into > simple steps'/ Or something like that anyway... I also see way too many students who were never handed a bulb, a battery, a nail, and some pieces of wire, . . . I have a bad case of "short-timer syndrome" - 6.16 semesters to go. I have to keep a low profile, which is quite difficult for me. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 9 17:01:04 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 15:01:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <2580AF76-032D-4EDD-96A7-3224F734C8A9@neurotica.com> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> <4BE70CA1.70409@gmail.com> <9EFB0E45-90A1-467E-8636-6F5C8B21566E@gmail.com> <2580AF76-032D-4EDD-96A7-3224F734C8A9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100509145544.A22790@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well, they're not programming languages, they're markup > languages. Writing in a programming language is programming. > Writing in a markup language is...marking up, perhaps? about 20 years ago, I worte some trivial programs in Postscript. I'll maintain that that WAS programming, albeit not very significant. BUT, as soon as it gets labelled "programming", the jerk who clicks the "Postscript" output button in the page making program that he uses (without mastery) will start calling himself a "programmer". Competent use of such programs is an important skill, and fundamental to successful graphic arts production, but "programming" it ain't. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 9 17:09:00 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 18:09:00 -0400 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <85E531E1-95F1-419C-8745-575FCD9D8C6D@neurotica.com> References: <4BE722DE.60504@atarimuseum.com> <4BE72962.3000008@atarimuseum.com> <85E531E1-95F1-419C-8745-575FCD9D8C6D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE7327C.4090502@atarimuseum.com> True, that's why I was asking to see if anyone had been able to get an RX02 working on a PC at all... I've got an Alpha coming soon and it would be fun to get the drives to work on it :-) Dave McGuire wrote: > > OH oh oh yes, that. I think you mean "Dbit has.." but at any rate > that doesn't control RX01/RX02 drives, but it is an adapter that > allows one to connect generic 8" drives and real RX50 drives to a PC > controller. Bit of a different animal. > > -Dave > > On May 9, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html >> >> >> >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> Huh? I thought that was a software-only product. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> On May 9, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>>> Ersatz has an RX01 capable controller.... >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Tony Duell wrote: >>>>>> Just walked past a pair of RX02's in the garage for the umpteenth >>>>>> time, and the thought came to me, could I get these badboys >>>>>> hooked up to my PC??? They are MFM format, should be feasible >>>>>> perhaps with a proper controller board... maybe. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyone ever try such an endeavor? ...and have any success? >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I've not done it, but it shouldn't' be that difficult. The >>>>> contoller board >>>>> is actually insife the RX02 chassis. The inteface back to the >>>>> interface >>>>> board in the Unibus/Qbus/Omnibus is a bit-serial one, timed from >>>>> the RX02 >>>>> end, and the interface board is essentially a shift register and a >>>>> little logic. It should eb quite easy to recreate that and link it >>>>> to a PC. >>>>> >>>>> -tony >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 17:39:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:39:13 -0400 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <4BE6C957.23431.14FF1B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BE72962.3000008@atarimuseum.com>, <85E531E1-95F1-419C-8745-575FCD9D8C6D@neurotica.com> <4BE6C957.23431.14FF1B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <21618A0C-B35A-49F8-A885-1D0CD48FE815@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> that doesn't control RX01/RX02 drives, but it is an adapter that >> allows one to connect generic 8" drives and real RX50 drives to a PC >> controller. Bit of a different animal. > > ...and while this might work for RX01 disks, it won't for double- > density RX02 disks, which use a DEC-unique variant of MFM. Single-density headers, double-density data IIRC? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 17:40:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:40:37 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100509145544.A22790@shell.lmi.net> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> <4BE70CA1.70409@gmail.com> <9EFB0E45-90A1-467E-8636-6F5C8B21566E@gmail.com> <2580AF76-032D-4EDD-96A7-3224F734C8A9@neurotica.com> <20100509145544.A22790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On May 9, 2010, at 6:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Well, they're not programming languages, they're markup >> languages. Writing in a programming language is programming. >> Writing in a markup language is...marking up, perhaps? > > about 20 years ago, I worte some trivial programs in Postscript. I'll > maintain that that WAS programming, albeit not very significant. > BUT, as soon as it gets labelled "programming", the jerk who clicks > the > "Postscript" output button in the page making program that he uses > (without mastery) will start calling himself a "programmer". Too true. That was definitely programming, though, as PostSript is definitely a full-fledged programming language in every way. Who was it that wrote an accounting system in PostScript many moons ago, just to prove the point? > Competent use of such programs is an important skill, and > fundamental to > successful graphic arts production, but "programming" it ain't. Absolutely. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 17:43:26 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:43:26 -0400 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100509143631.L22790@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100509143631.L22790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <9C9A7A9B-30AD-4DC6-B545-BEAFEC4B9BEB@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> As I have said many times before, I leant nothing useful at >> school. The >> fact that I didn;t have one clueful mathementics of physics >> teacher may >> have something to do with that. That $deity I had access to >> interesting >> books... > > You don't want to get me started on what they are trying to do to the > library. ""Kernighan & Ritchie" and "Knuth" are more than five > years old, > they should be replaced with something more current!" I used to use > astronomy as a counter argument, but now they think that ALL of > those must > be replaced to reflect Pluto's "demotion". *spit* Bunch of damn suits. Hey, haven't you heard? All of the standard sorting algorithms (are ANY of them less than thirty years old?) are all so old now, they MUST be obsolete! Better stop teaching them! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrise at pobox.com Sat May 8 06:22:34 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 06:22:34 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <7FE2FAEDCB6BB84D82198EF8661FD54011FBE7@homer.bigknet.local> References: <7FE2FAEDCB6BB84D82198EF8661FD54011FBE7@homer.bigknet.local> Message-ID: <20100508112234.GC23471@n0jcf.net> Thank you Carl. I did receive a .BIN file of the monitor a while ago and just recently got it burned into an 8755A. Unfortunately, this has not fixed the problem-- or, rather, introduced a new problem as the little machine still does not run at all (frozen or not) with the new EPROM resident monitor. So, there is something a little more sinister going on here. Still investigating... Chris On Saturday (05/08/2010 at 02:33AM -0400), Carl Allen wrote: > Chris, > > I have the monitor listing (v 2.1) for the SDK-85 in digital form if it > will help. > > I've modified it to compile with Pseudo Sam by removing the macros. > > I've added line drivers (75188 and 75189) to my SDK-85 to support > RS-232C and changed the code so it runs at 9600 baud. > > If you can rustle up an 8755 you could burn the monitor to it. > > Regards, > > Carl > > > -- > Carl Allen > Plus! Computers, Inc. > (336) 659-8549 > tech at pluscomputers.com > www.pluscomputers.com -- Chris Elmquist From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 8 13:25:01 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 May 2010 11:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <4BE1001B.3030702@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <540109.80755.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> definitely not a GDM-1950/1952 or anything close. In fact HP had a newer monitor that was bigger and more grotesque then this one (that one had a plastic cover w/no swivel base, this one is metal). I'm saddened to learn it's a boring old analog monitor, as Liam has pointed out. By any chance do you know what the horizontal frequency or vertical resolution is? The dude I obtained it from said he couldn't get anything to display, but that's not surprising, as he's a technician and was using standard tv style equipment. I had the opportunity of owning an old style digital monitor for the TI PC. Didn't feel like paying shipping. Oh woe is me. What a dork. --- On Wed, 5/5/10, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: From jonas at otter.se Sat May 8 15:08:46 2010 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 08 May 2010 20:08:46 +0000 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Obviously this Dan fellow is a troll and you have all taken the bait... >From: Dan Gahlinger >Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN >To: >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >In this case, Fred's just, ok, can't say anything nice, don't say anything, >he's gone to my ignore list, it's better this way... > >as for Valtrep, a lot just personal experience, remember I worked on it, in the 80s and before in the 70s. > >it's interesting even info on the old "Sentry-70" computer system can't be found online, at least, I can't find any. >The Sentry-70 is as it suggests, the last model, and numbered by year. that would be 1970. >It predates the Cyber/Prime system, as much as memory recalls anyhow. > >They had the Sentry-70 at the university I happened to be at, at the time. >I started there in 1976, yeah I know, it's still late for the time periods we're talking about. >However, the systems and languages had been there for a long time before I started. > >There are a few things that lend evidence to these statements, none of which are likely verifiable... > >1. that is how Valtrep was introduced to me (ok, so it's hearsay) >2. more importantly - the structure of the language - and this is more telling. > >It's quite easy to identify a more primitive version of a language when compared to a more modern one. >Syntax, functions, scope, definitions, everything about it. > >Do I have any sample code of Valtrep still around? That's a tough question. >I'm going to guess "NO", however, it is certainly possible. I will definitely look. > >There are a few people who were at the same university with me at the same time, >I can also consult with them and perhaps get some of their memories, >one of them may even have sample code, if only on punch-card or whatever. > >It might be easier [sic] to find info on the computer "Sentry-70", but all my searches thus far have come up blank >on any useful information anyhow. > >I'm willing to cede the argument that Valtrep was the predecessor to Fortran if anyone can offer any evidence to support that. >Perhaps it's an odd claim to make without any backup, but then, I was there, so.... > >Valtrep was very "Fortran-ish" however it didn't have all the functions or capabilities, it was more rudimentary. > >Dan. > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun May 9 17:44:43 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 17:44:43 -0500 Subject: Reasonable shipping method for personal computer? Message-ID: <4BE73ADB.7010704@oldskool.org> I would like to start selling, trading, and donating some of my collection to get it out of the house and into the hands of people who could use them; they range from small classic macs to amigas to 5150s to large pentium-era towers. However, I've been hamstrung by my choices of shipping things that are larger than a book. Choices for shipping in the USA are the USPS, UPS, and FEDEX. The questions begin: - Which one is best for PC-size boxes? - Which one is best for PC-weight boxes? - Which is the most convenient? - Some services pick up from your residential location rather than you having to lug a heavy box to a counter somewhere; does anyone use pickup? If so, which one? Any advice and best practices are appreciated. I am even willing to donate some of this stuff not if it's going to cost $75 a box... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 17:50:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 15:50:46 -0700 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <21618A0C-B35A-49F8-A885-1D0CD48FE815@neurotica.com> References: , <4BE6C957.23431.14FF1B5@cclist.sydex.com>, <21618A0C-B35A-49F8-A885-1D0CD48FE815@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE6D9D6.24831.19060F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2010 at 18:39, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 9, 2010, at 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> that doesn't control RX01/RX02 drives, but it is an adapter that > >> allows one to connect generic 8" drives and real RX50 drives to a > >> PC controller. Bit of a different animal. > > > > ...and while this might work for RX01 disks, it won't for double- > > density RX02 disks, which use a DEC-unique variant of MFM. > > Single-density headers, double-density data IIRC? Close--some of the MFM patterns have been "tweaked' so as not to set off the FM AM detection. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 17:53:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 15:53:50 -0700 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <4BE7327C.4090502@atarimuseum.com> References: , <85E531E1-95F1-419C-8745-575FCD9D8C6D@neurotica.com>, <4BE7327C.4090502@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4BE6DA8E.26175.1933000@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2010 at 18:09, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > True, that's why I was asking to see if anyone had been able to get > an RX02 working on a PC at all... I've got an Alpha coming soon and it > would be fun to get the drives to work on it :-) Well, a Catweasel doesn't have any problem with RX02 on a naked 8" drive, but it may not be what you had in mind. (i.e. writes are track at a time, as are reads). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 9 17:58:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 15:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <4BE709CC.3090708@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100509155527.C22790@shell.lmi.net> > > This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML > > programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness abounds. On Sun, 9 May 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered > programming constructs, no? Yes But, the majority of users don't even SEE the HTML. They click the "HTML5" button on their "web-making" program. Whatever happened to giving the students a simple project to do with hand coding HTML? From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 18:14:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 16:14:08 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4BE6DF50.2731.1A5C5FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2010 at 20:08, Jonas Otter wrote: > Obviously this Dan fellow is a troll and you have all taken the > bait... Hmm, for a while, I thought that Valtrep was a district in Oppland, about midway between Bergen and Oslo. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 9 18:22:48 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 17:22:48 -0600 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE743C8.3070403@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", >> "mainframe"? > > If you lose your screwdrive inside it, it's a micro. If you lose your > multimeter inside it, it's a mini. If you lose your 'scope inside it, it's > a mainframe. And if you lose yourself iniside it, it's a supercomputer. And if has a lose screw - its lap top. :) > :-) > > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 9 18:36:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:36:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE743C8.3070403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BE743C8.3070403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100509163424.H22790@shell.lmi.net> > >> Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", > >> "mainframe"? > > > > If you lose your screwdrive inside it, it's a micro. If you lose your > > multimeter inside it, it's a mini. If you lose your 'scope inside it, it's > > a mainframe. And if you lose yourself iniside it, it's a supercomputer. > > And if has a lose screw - its lap top. :) If you lose a screw in a lap-top, you turn it upside down and shake it. If you lose a screw in a microcomputer, you turn it on its side. If you lose a screw in a minicomputer, you get out a flashlight. If you lose a screw in a mainframe, you order another box of screws. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 9 18:38:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 16:38:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE743C8.3070403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BE743C8.3070403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100509163726.H22790@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 May 2010, Ben wrote: > And if has a lose screw - its lap top. :) the current problem with laptops seems to be printed "flex-cables", that after a finite amount of flexing, cease to adequately function as cables. From als at thangorodrim.de Sun May 9 18:56:01 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 01:56:01 +0200 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <9C9A7A9B-30AD-4DC6-B545-BEAFEC4B9BEB@neurotica.com> References: <20100509143631.L22790@shell.lmi.net> <9C9A7A9B-30AD-4DC6-B545-BEAFEC4B9BEB@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100509235601.GA29818@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, May 09, 2010 at 06:43:26PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 9, 2010, at 5:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>As I have said many times before, I leant nothing useful at > >>school. The > >>fact that I didn;t have one clueful mathementics of physics > >>teacher may > >>have something to do with that. That $deity I had access to > >>interesting > >>books... > > > >You don't want to get me started on what they are trying to do to the > >library. ""Kernighan & Ritchie" and "Knuth" are more than five > >years old, > >they should be replaced with something more current!" I used to use > >astronomy as a counter argument, but now they think that ALL of > >those must > >be replaced to reflect Pluto's "demotion". > > *spit* Bunch of damn suits. > > Hey, haven't you heard? All of the standard sorting algorithms > (are ANY of them less than thirty years old?) are all so old now, > they MUST be obsolete! Better stop teaching them! Don't say that too loud, some idio^WIndividuals In Charge might listen to you and implement that as policy. And if that trend keeps up, you've got to learn chinese to operate a new computer one day. *sigh* Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun May 9 19:16:00 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 17:16:00 -0700 Subject: Reasonable shipping method for personal computer? In-Reply-To: <4BE73ADB.7010704@oldskool.org> References: <4BE73ADB.7010704@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <046d01caefd5$fec77f00$fc567d00$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Leonard Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 3:45 PM To: General at mail.mobygames.com; Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Reasonable shipping method for personal computer? - Which one is best for PC-size boxes? - Which one is best for PC-weight boxes? - Which is the most convenient? - Some services pick up from your residential location rather than you having to lug a heavy box to a counter somewhere; does anyone use pickup? If so, which one? ----> I tend to use FedEx for most domestic shipments and USPS for most international stuff. That's just how the pricing works out. FedEx will pick up, but there is a charge. FedEx is also the least likely to use your package like a football and the most reasonable to deal with if there is damage in transit. On that front UPS wears brown for a reason. .-) Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 9 20:39:32 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 18:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100509155527.C22790@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 9, 10 03:58:35 pm" Message-ID: <201005100139.o4A1dW1k012310@floodgap.com> > > > This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML > > > programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness abounds. > > Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered > > programming constructs, no? > Yes > But, the majority of users don't even SEE the HTML. They click the > "HTML5" button on their "web-making" program. > Whatever happened to giving the students a simple project to do with hand > coding HTML? I still handcode all my web pages, but I get told that I should be using a content management system instead, whereupon I hit them with my cane and use my dentures to leave bitemarks in their arm. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: You can overcome any obstacle. Try a steeplechase. ---------------- From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun May 9 20:50:19 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 21:50:19 -0400 Subject: Could an RX02 be hooked to a PC? In-Reply-To: <4BE7327C.4090502@atarimuseum.com> References: <4BE722DE.60504@atarimuseum.com> <4BE72962.3000008@atarimuseum.com> <85E531E1-95F1-419C-8745-575FCD9D8C6D@neurotica.com> <4BE7327C.4090502@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4BE7665B.7080803@verizon.net> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > True, that's why I was asking to see if anyone had been able to get > an RX02 working on a PC at all... I've got an Alpha coming soon and it > would be fun to get the drives to work on it :-) > > Yes. likely the easiest way is using the printer port. The RX02 drive unit is intelligent and communicates to a bus interface module. Feed it commands and data and it feeds you results and data. The details are not worked out but the interface was simple enough that it was available Unibus(-11 and UVAX), Qbus(-11 and uVAX) and Omnibus(-8). Allison > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> OH oh oh yes, that. I think you mean "Dbit has.." but at any rate >> that doesn't control RX01/RX02 drives, but it is an adapter that >> allows one to connect generic 8" drives and real RX50 drives to a PC >> controller. Bit of a different animal. >> >> -Dave >> >> On May 9, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html >>> >>> >>> >>> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> >>>> Huh? I thought that was a software-only product. >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>>> On May 9, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>>>> Ersatz has an RX01 capable controller.... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Tony Duell wrote: >>>>>>> Just walked past a pair of RX02's in the garage for the >>>>>>> umpteenth time, and the thought came to me, could I get these >>>>>>> badboys hooked up to my PC??? They are MFM format, should be >>>>>>> feasible perhaps with a proper controller board... maybe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyone ever try such an endeavor? ...and have any success? >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I've not done it, but it shouldn't' be that difficult. The >>>>>> contoller board >>>>>> is actually insife the RX02 chassis. The inteface back to the >>>>>> interface >>>>>> board in the Unibus/Qbus/Omnibus is a bit-serial one, timed from >>>>>> the RX02 >>>>>> end, and the interface board is essentially a shift register and >>>>>> a little logic. It should eb quite easy to recreate that and link >>>>>> it to a PC. >>>>>> >>>>>> -tony >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun May 9 21:01:27 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 22:01:27 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE768F7.6090509@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> So, the National SC/MP and RCA 1802 were 1-bit microprocessors? >> > > I've heard this said about the SC/MP before, but the data sheet shows an > 8-bit parallel ALU. Do you have any docuemtnation which claims it's > bit-serial? > > Definately 8bit parallel both of them. Where inthe world does this cruft come from? >> That's sure to start a fight somewhere... >> > > If you take the ALU size, then the P850 becomes an 8-bit machine > (everybody considers it to be 16 bits, which is the logical size to a > proggrammer). And what size is the HP9830? The ALU in there is bit-serial > form binary operations and 4 bits wide for BCD operations. > > Bit serial means data paths and work is done that way but the native data format can be anything from 5bits (a trainer I'd seen once) to more than 30bits. It can even be BCD! Good example PDP-8 a parallel 12bit machine, PDP-8S a bit serial implementation of same (cheaper). Allison > As I hope we've all seen by now, you often can't quote a single 'bit > count' for a machine that's applicable in all cases. > > > -tony > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 9 21:24:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 19:24:29 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE768F7.6090509@verizon.net> References: , <4BE768F7.6090509@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BE70BED.31142.2540C80@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2010 at 22:01, allison wrote: > Definately 8bit parallel both of them. Where inthe world does this > cruft come from? Hey, don't kill the messenger: http://www.cpushack.com/CPU/cpu2.html Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 9 23:24:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 00:24:32 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005100139.o4A1dW1k012310@floodgap.com> References: <201005100139.o4A1dW1k012310@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <7CF6D944-7937-4FD4-BADE-0CBFEE7CAE17@neurotica.com> On May 9, 2010, at 9:39 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML >>>> programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness >>>> abounds. >>> Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered >>> programming constructs, no? >> Yes >> But, the majority of users don't even SEE the HTML. They click the >> "HTML5" button on their "web-making" program. >> Whatever happened to giving the students a simple project to do >> with hand >> coding HTML? > > I still handcode all my web pages, but I get told that I should be > using a > content management system instead, whereupon I hit them with my > cane and > use my dentures to leave bitemarks in their arm. That's not "old" just because the industry has become dumbed down. Most of today's "professional" "web developers" have never seen HTML. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 9 23:52:44 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 00:52:44 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201005100052.45054.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 09 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, almost all modern x86 systems have a 14.31818MHz master > > clock. It's usually first multiplied up by a PLL chip (e.g. > > PI6C104), then further multiplied by an on-chip PLL in the CPU. > > > > So all x86 systems since the PII are 14.31818MHz systems? > > OK, so if I buy a 2GHz PC, what signal is that 2GHz describing? And > how does it relate to signals I can measure? Pull the cap off of the processor, and poke around until you find it. It's a multiple (usually fixed by the CPU, but which can be altered on some processor variants) of the CPU front-side bus speed (or hyper- transport/memory speed on "newer" AMD chips). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 9 23:55:49 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 00:55:49 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE6B3F7.31557.FC7390@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net> <4BE6B3F7.31557.FC7390@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201005100055.49893.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 09 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 May 2010 at 17:59, Tony Duell wrote: > > If you lose your screwdrive inside it, it's a micro. If you lose > > your multimeter inside it, it's a mini. If you lose your 'scope > > inside it, it's a mainframe. And if you lose yourself iniside it, > > it's a supercomputer. > > Even in the "classic" supercomputer sense, I don't think you could > fit inside of an ETA-10, nor could you stand the temperature, even > with your warmest overcoat on. I'm told that there were air-cooled ETA-10s as well. Purdue had one or two... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 10 00:01:58 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 01:01:58 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201005100101.58701.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 06 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a machine here that I could justify any of the following > numbers of bits for : > > 1 (Bit serial ALU for binary operations) > 3 (Physical width of user program memory) > 4 (width of the ALU for BCD operations) > 6 (logical width of user program memory) > 8 (physical width of user data memory, and I/O bus) > 16 (logical witdh of user data memory, also size of most processor > registers). The "bit" size of a process is whatever the manufacturer choises to call the device. Seriously, what value does this conversation have? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 10 00:07:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 22:07:59 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <201005100055.49893.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net>, <4BE6B3F7.31557.FC7390@cclist.sydex.com>, <201005100055.49893.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4BE7323F.20235.2E9B9C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2010 at 0:55, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'm told that there were air-cooled ETA-10s as well. Purdue had one > or two... I generally think of the air-cooled models (10P and 10Q) as "Pipers" and not the real deal (N2 cooled 10E and 10G). I don't think the Pipers ran anywhere close to 10GFlops. (Anyone remember when the system was called the GF-10?). Of course, most medium-end display adapters would qualify as supercomputers. Tony definitely wouldn't fit into one of those. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 10 00:18:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 22:18:38 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <201005100055.49893.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net>, <4BE6B3F7.31557.FC7390@cclist.sydex.com>, <201005100055.49893.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4BE734BE.30800.2F3796D@cclist.sydex.com> I was visiting a friend around 1975-76 who had taken a job with Honeywell's Government Systems Division in Phoenix shortly after Honeywell took over the GE Computer operation there (there were still GE mainframes to be seen here and there). At any rate, the system under development that I saw used water- against copper-membrane cooling. It was composed of several racks connected by cables and what looked to be vinyl tubing. The whole affair was located in a big square housing about 8' on a side. It literally was a "walk-in" affair. There looked to be enough room in there for a small table and a couple of chairs. A very sexy operator's console with nixie bar-graph displays among other things. I don't recall what system it was. But you could definitely hide a few people in it. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 10 01:12:13 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 02:12:13 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005100139.o4A1dW1k012310@floodgap.com> References: <201005100139.o4A1dW1k012310@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4BE7A3BD.8050406@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML >>>> programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness abounds. >>> Some of the new features grafted onto HTML5 could be considered >>> programming constructs, no? >> Yes >> But, the majority of users don't even SEE the HTML. They click the >> "HTML5" button on their "web-making" program. >> Whatever happened to giving the students a simple project to do with hand >> coding HTML? > > I still handcode all my web pages, but I get told that I should be using a > content management system instead, whereupon I hit them with my cane and > use my dentures to leave bitemarks in their arm. Do they then get off your lawn? Peace... Sridhar From kgriff156 at comcast.net Sun May 9 17:46:44 2010 From: kgriff156 at comcast.net (Kevin Griffin) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 15:46:44 -0700 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: <000001caefc9$80cc0640$826412c0$@net> I am inquiring to see if you might help me to acquire a 28-249 manual for a 200 in 1 kit I am helping my grandson learn with. The 150 in 1 manual that we have does not match the set up or numbering of components for him to follow. I await your response and thank you for your assistance. Kevin From josecvalle at gmail.com Sun May 9 21:25:23 2010 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 23:25:23 -0300 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BE5CEFF.2010209@soznet.net> Message-ID: I agree too. just old computers and computers..just it Jose Carlos valle, Brazil 2010/5/9 Tony Duell > > So...Anyone watch that NY Yankees vs Boston Redsox game last night? What > > a game. Lets start talking about it as I LOVE sports! *Haha* > > If you're going to talk about a version of rounders (which over here is > mostlu played by schoolgirls), then please do it in the right place. > > More seriously, while I beleive in the right of freedom of speech, I also > feel that with that right comes the responsibility to speak in the right > place. There must be mailing lists for just about every aspect of every > sport you can name, but this is not one of them. Please can we stick to > classic computers (and somewhat related topics). > > -tony > > -- Muito obrigado Jos? Carlos Valle - Curador/eventos TWITTER: http://twitter.com/curadordomuseu Eventos do Museu assistam os videos http://www.orkut.com.br/Main#FavoriteVideos?uid=4556187644461453698&sm=add O Curador no Jornal Nacional. agosto 2009. Assista agora no link abaixo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJEIuMcYtzA O Curador no Antena Paulista: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wO_JFfNiGlE NOVO LOCAL DO MUSEU DO COMPUTADOR. www.museudocomputador.com.br Telefone - (11) 4666-7545 - . Contato: Jos? Carlos Valle ? Curador E-mail: curador at museudocomputador.com.br - From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon May 10 02:14:58 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 03:14:58 -0400 Subject: Reasonable shipping method for personal computer? References: <4BE73ADB.7010704@oldskool.org> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:44 PM Subject: Reasonable shipping method for personal computer? >I would like to start selling, trading, and donating some of my collection >to get it out of the house and into the hands of people who could use them; >they range from small classic macs to amigas to 5150s to large pentium-era >towers. However, I've been hamstrung by my choices of shipping things that >are larger than a book. Choices for shipping in the USA are the USPS, UPS, >and FEDEX. The questions begin: > > - Which one is best for PC-size boxes? > - Which one is best for PC-weight boxes? > - Which is the most convenient? > - Some services pick up from your residential location rather than you > having to lug a heavy box to a counter somewhere; does anyone use pickup? > If so, which one? > > Any advice and best practices are appreciated. I am even willing to > donate some of this stuff not if it's going to cost $75 a box... > -- I tend to use USPS Parcel Post for larger items like computers because it tends to be the cheapest but not the fastest. USPS will pickup packages you know: http://www.usps.com/pickup/welcome.htm?from=home_shipstartfinish&page=requestfreepickup You need to Apply postage so you need to have a decent scale for weight measurement and either a bunch of stamps or a prepaid shipping label using the internet. Read the fine print. Some people like using drop of services that will make your life easy but add a bunch of cost making some items not worth buying. What you are doing is what most ebay sellers have to worry about, and it seems (from all the junk I get) USPS is the most preferred method from ebayers. Once in a while on a large item (or people who rip off their work to ship something there) I get something in FEDEX. UPS is a rarity for some reason, used mostly by large companies with major discounts. Too bad DHL bit the dust, they had the cheapest shipping for large heavy computers by far. For the smaller stuff USPS flat rate boxes work out well, and they will deliver a bunch to your house for free, you can order online. I suggest you look into finding cheap boxes and packing material before you worry too much about actual shipping. Anything you come up with will be time consuming since I think you have a very large collection? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 02:22:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 03:22:32 -0400 Subject: Reasonable shipping method for personal computer? In-Reply-To: References: <4BE73ADB.7010704@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4BE7B438.3050305@neurotica.com> On 5/10/10 3:14 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > What you are doing is what most ebay sellers have to worry about, and it > seems (from all the junk I get) USPS is the most preferred method from > ebayers. Once in a while on a large item (or people who rip off their > work to ship something there) I get something in FEDEX. UPS is a rarity > for some reason, used mostly by large companies with major discounts. I do an awful, awful lot of shipping and receiving. For outbound packages, I only ship via FedEx ground. Accounts are cheap and the service is fantastic. I use them exclusively because I like stuff to actually reach its destination intact. USPS has lost several high-dollar packages for me and refused to honor the insurance, while UPS tends to destroy things. For inbound packages, I rarely see items shipped via USPS, though I suppose a lot of the stuff I buy doesn't come from individuals. When I buy stuff on eBay, I usually specifically request (or INSIST if it's something rare) that USPS not be used. USPS is the Wal*Mart of shipping services: Rock-bottom prices, but shitty products, you always end up paying a lot more in the long run, and you always see lots of "those people" in the checkout lines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From steve at cosam.org Mon May 10 05:59:26 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 12:59:26 +0200 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Jason McBrien wrote: > My favorites (on-topic as they are OLD!): --snip-- > The Secret Life of Machines - A stuffy professor builds cool gadgets to show > how everyday machines work. One of the best shows ever about engineering. Absolutely! Their style of presentation was great: taking stuff apart to show the viewer exactly how it works and making models out of junk to illustrate the theory. They had a knack of explaining things in a way that made sometimes complex concepts really easy to understand. The shows are also full of anecdotes, and the fact that they didn't bother reshooting scenes which went less than perfectly made for great entertainment. It doesn't look like one can easily obtain a hard copy of the shows, but all three series are easily found on the web and there are snippets all over YouTube. There's some nice on-topic footage in the episode about the word processor, including a demo of a Ferranti Pegasus playing music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW_0kXK_zes&NR=1 -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From melamy at earthlink.net Mon May 10 07:43:11 2010 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 05:43:11 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Equipment Reduction Message-ID: <29151794.1273495391236.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I have found myself needing to reduce the area consumed by the systems I have. The list below is what I need to let go of. Send me an email off list if you are interested in making an offer or if you have specific questions - sthatcher @ melamy.com. Local to Kenmore, WA 98028 is better because of shipping costs for some of the items, but I will work with you. Due to age (mine and the equipment), I can make no guarantee that they work or how long they will work if they do - typical old equipment caveats... Best regards, Steve Thatcher 1 - Intel MDS 220 development system (single dd 8" floppy, 8085 processor, 64K memory, operating system on disk). Worked the last time I powered it on (a few years ago). 1 - Intel dual dd floppy drive cabinet (comes with cable that I was building to connect it to the main system) 1 - Intel MDS 210 cabinet (no electronics and no front panel) 1 - Intel iPDS development system (I seem to recall a intermittent power supply issue). 1 - Intel iPDS expansion floppy drive (worked last time I powered it on) 1 - Davidge cpm system (64K, z80, 20 meg hd, 3 1/2" floppy drive - not sure about density) with floppy drive cabinet (one dd 8" floppy drive). Worked the last time I powered it on (a few years ago). 1 - Kaypro 4 in good condition (will have to check functionality). Has OS disk. 1 - Kaypro 10 in good condition (with have to check functionality). Has OS disk also. 1 - Kaypro 2X in good condition (will have to check functionality). Has OS disk. 1 - Prolog 8085 System Analyzer (with pod and manual) 1 - Osborne 1 system with external CRT monitor there is more, I will be adding to this list as I have time. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 10 08:06:58 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 06:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> <20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net> <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > > How can BASIC not be taught? Every computer has it's own version of BASIC, > whereas (as I understand it) Visual Basic is only available for modern > computers. > Visual Basic 1.0 is for DOS and Microsoft PDS 7.1 and QuickBASIC 4.5 can be found on various abandonware sites. Interesting note - QB45 is available via the MSDN, but PDS71 isn't. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 10 08:34:27 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:34:27 -0400 Subject: OT: Geeky TV shows (was Re: An option - Re: the beginning ofthe end for floppies) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE17CDC.5090308@philpem.me.uk> <605269DA-0455-4C1C-9C71-9FEA59E322FA@neurotica.com> <4BE1C62F.2010104@philpem.me.uk> <005a01caed49$758b7630$a7545b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE3A30A.40109@oldskool.org> <4BE3BF34.2030407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BE80B63.9040204@gmail.com> Steve Maddison wrote: >> The Secret Life of Machines - A stuffy professor builds cool gadgets to show >> how everyday machines work. One of the best shows ever about engineering. > > Absolutely! Their style of presentation was great: taking stuff apart > to show the viewer exactly how it works and making models out of junk > to illustrate the theory. They had a knack of explaining things in a > way that made sometimes complex concepts really easy to understand. > The shows are also full of anecdotes, and the fact that they didn't > bother reshooting scenes which went less than perfectly made for great > entertainment. > > It doesn't look like one can easily obtain a hard copy of the shows, > but all three series are easily found on the web and there are > snippets all over YouTube. There's some nice on-topic footage in the > episode about the word processor, including a demo of a Ferranti > Pegasus playing music: Last time I looked, Tim and Rex were actively encouraging people to share the show on the 'net. Peace... Sridhar From trebor77 at execpc.com Mon May 10 08:51:13 2010 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (trebor77 at execpc.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone Have Knowledge or Experience on IBM SERIES/1 Message-ID: <1087.69.95.232.228.1273499473.squirrel@newmail.core.com> I am looking for anyone who has Knowledge or Experience on IBM SERIES/1. I have a System in my Basement that hasn't been run for 18 Years. Not sure it can be Started up. Its a 4952 Half Rack with a 4955E replacing the 4952. Has a 9Meg HD Got an External Floppy. Got a 4978, a 3101, TTY Card. I used to Program in EDL on it back in the late 80's early 90's Bob in Wisconsin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 10 09:18:19 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 07:18:19 -0700 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100508112234.GC23471@n0jcf.net> References: <7FE2FAEDCB6BB84D82198EF8661FD54011FBE7@homer.bigknet.local>, <20100508112234.GC23471@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Hi As was mentioned, there is a different pin on the 8755A than the 8355 used on the sdk85. Did you check that it was at the correct level? Dwight > From: chrise at pobox.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey > > Thank you Carl. I did receive a .BIN file of the monitor a while ago > and just recently got it burned into an 8755A. Unfortunately, this has > not fixed the problem-- or, rather, introduced a new problem as the > little machine still does not run at all (frozen or not) with the new > EPROM resident monitor. > > So, there is something a little more sinister going on here. Still > investigating... > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 10 09:21:32 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:21:32 -0400 Subject: Anyone Have Knowledge or Experience on IBM SERIES/1 In-Reply-To: <1087.69.95.232.228.1273499473.squirrel@newmail.core.com> References: <1087.69.95.232.228.1273499473.squirrel@newmail.core.com> Message-ID: <4BE8166C.2020300@atarimuseum.com> Wow, Bob I wish I could help you out. I installed one at Moody's Investment back around 95-96' or so... I used to have all the technical manuals and such, its been so damned long, I think I'd be as lost as you are in trying to get the beastie up and running - gorgeous machines though, very nice design. Curt trebor77 at execpc.com wrote: > I am looking for anyone who has Knowledge or Experience on IBM SERIES/1. I > have a System in my Basement that hasn't been run for 18 Years. Not sure > it can be Started up. Its a 4952 Half Rack with a 4955E replacing the > 4952. Has a 9Meg HD Got an External Floppy. Got a 4978, a 3101, TTY Card. > I used to Program in EDL on it back in the late 80's early 90's > Bob > in Wisconsin > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 10 09:34:21 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:34:21 -0600 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE7323F.20235.2E9B9C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net>, <4BE6B3F7.31557.FC7390@cclist.sydex.com>, <201005100055.49893.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4BE7323F.20235.2E9B9C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BE8196D.9050200@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Of course, most medium-end display adapters would qualify as > supercomputers. Tony definitely wouldn't fit into one of those. True, but depending on the game you are playng, you still can get lost. :) > --Chuck > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 10 09:50:01 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:50:01 -0600 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE8196D.9050200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20100508132544.P80526@shell.lmi.net>, <4BE6B3F7.31557.FC7390@cclist.sydex.com>, <201005100055.49893.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4BE7323F.20235.2E9B9C3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BE8196D.9050200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BE81D19.8040007@jetnet.ab.ca> Ben wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Of course, most medium-end display adapters would qualify as >> supercomputers. Tony definitely wouldn't fit into one of those. > > True, but depending on the game you are playng, you still can get lost. > :) > >> --Chuck No wait, it works even on a 8. "You are in twisty little maze." :) Ben. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 10 10:48:12 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 08:48:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shipping floppy drives - Disk in or out? Message-ID: <337276.13994.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> When floppy drives were new, they usually came with that cardboard piece inserted, and with the drive door closed. When shipping a floppy drive, is it really best to have something closed in the drive? I'm talking about single head 5 1/4" drives here. I've seen several methods: Nothing inserted, drive open nothing inserted, drive closed Disk inserted, drive closed cardboard protector, drive closed disk, in sleeve, inserted *sideways*, drive open (can't close it like that) disk inserted backwards, drive closed. Now, on a single head full height drive, there really isn't a whole lot to damage. The sping on the lever mechanism is pretty strong, so it's unlikely that it'll slam down and hit the head unless it's really dropped hard. And, if it does, it's just got a fuzzy pressure pad there - not another head. Also, with something as thin as a disk inserted, does it really protect anything? I suppose that the closed position is more stable, since then the mechanism would be fairly solid, and you'd have less chance of damaging the drive door, but would that mean any shock would press on the head? A similar question would probably be - when single head full height drives were new, did they ship with a cardboard protector? I primarily only remember those from the half height and double sided drives. And only once have I seen one for a 3 1/2" drive (it was basically a solid plastic disk). And I also remember getting some new high density 5 1/4" drives that were not shipped with a protector. -Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 10 10:56:51 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:56:51 -0500 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100509143631.L22790@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100509143631.L22790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201005101630.o4AGUV7c061341@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:51 PM 5/9/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >I also see way too many students who were never handed a bulb, a battery, >a nail, and some pieces of wire, . . . My freshman son was recently assigned a task like this in science class. They were to assemble a sort of circuit board by using thin strips of aluminum foil, joined at corners, instead of wires, taped to a piece of cardboard, and improvised switches with flaps that could be pressed to touch the ends together. The objective was to design a circuit that could show lamps in series and in parallel, depending on which switches were closed. The assignment paperwork said to use "Christmas bulbs". The power supply was not specified, although it was hinted a 9-volt could be pressed against contacts. I thought this was very unclear, as there are several types of Christmas bulbs these days. To simplify, I bought four $1 old-style incandescent 3 volt (two AA) flashlights, disassembled the bulbs, soldered wires to them, and inserted them into the circuit. Anyone care to predict what happened with two of these bulbs in series, either with 3 volts or 6 volts? What happened when I tried LEDs, in series or parallel, with a current-limited source? - John From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 10 11:38:03 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 09:38:03 -0700 Subject: Shipping floppy drives - Disk in or out? In-Reply-To: <337276.13994.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <337276.13994.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi You should ship with the door open, if you can't find a cardboard insert. Do not use a disk or close the latch. Many of the older ones, especially the single sided, have head load solenoids( 5.25 and 8 inch ). These are vary unlikely to close the heads. 3.5 in. often don't have a head load solenoid and should have the door open. If there is a chance the door could accidentally be closed during shipping, put some tape on it to hold it. The reason I say this is that even with the piece of felt, there is often debris from disk that will transfer onto the head. Corrosion also loves to get started between such surfaces where there is already bits of oxide. Any condensation on an open surface evaporates relatively quickly but it tends to wick into the felt and last a long time. Heads are tough but I wouldn't give chemistry a chance to its work. Dwight > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com > > When floppy drives were new, they usually came with that cardboard piece inserted, and with the drive door closed. When shipping a floppy drive, is it really best to have something closed in the drive? I'm talking about single head 5 1/4" drives here. I've seen several methods: > > Nothing inserted, drive open > nothing inserted, drive closed > Disk inserted, drive closed > cardboard protector, drive closed > disk, in sleeve, inserted *sideways*, drive open (can't close it like that) > disk inserted backwards, drive closed. > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon May 10 12:15:55 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:15:55 -0400 Subject: Anyone Have Knowledge or Experience on IBM SERIES/1 Message-ID: <1c7afa08$56f84415$1276e60c$@com> Trebor/Curt, I have an IBM System 1 in my office in Wilmington, Delaware. It was pulled from production in working order but I have no idea how to get it running. I have a lot of the same components you've described. I worked with an ex-IBM tech for about three hours to do a system inventory and figure out what conntects to what, but that's about as far as we got. I would love some help if anyone is in the MidAtlantic USA area and knows the Series 1 hardware. http://vintagecomputer.net/ibm/Series1/ Bill > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:21:32 -0400 > From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > Subject: Re: Anyone Have Knowledge or Experience on IBM SERIES/1 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4BE8166C.2020300 at atarimuseum.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Wow, Bob I wish I could help you out. I installed one at Moody's > Investment back around 95-96' or so... I used to have all the technical > manuals and such, its been so damned long, I think I'd be as lost as you > are in trying to get the beastie up and running - gorgeous machines > though, very nice design. > > > Curt > > > > trebor77 at execpc.com wrote: > > I am looking for anyone who has Knowledge or Experience on IBM SERIES/1. I > > have a System in my Basement that hasn't been run for 18 Years. Not sure > > it can be Started up. Its a 4952 Half Rack with a 4955E replacing the > > 4952. Has a 9Meg HD Got an External Floppy. Got a 4978, a 3101, TTY Card. > > I used to Program in EDL on it back in the late 80's early 90's > > Bob > > in Wisconsin > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 10 12:16:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:16:11 -0700 Subject: Shipping floppy drives - Disk in or out? In-Reply-To: References: <337276.13994.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4BE7DCEB.27774.2EEC83@cclist.sydex.com> When I ship 5.25" floppy drives, I cut an insert from the top of a large yogurt (or Cool-Whip, if your dietary preferences lean that way) lid and insert it into the drive. It doesn't shed abrasive material and is soft enough to cushion any head impact. I have a bit of a concern about cardboard being hygroscopic and leading to grief somewhere down the line. I've also got a few plastic 3.5" dummies that were shipped with new drives. No manufacturer given; just "Made in Japan" and "Insert this sheet under transportation" (sic) in several languages. --Chuck From jelynch at stny.rr.com Mon May 10 12:18:37 2010 From: jelynch at stny.rr.com (jelynch at stny.rr.com) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:18:37 -0400 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20100510171838.EUVCS.7101.root@hrndva-web20-z02> I can attest to a flakiness of the SDK-85 operation if the pin is not properly selected. My board had a 8355 and it failed. I replaced it with a 8755A and it was flakey because I did not change the ROM pin select. After correctly connecting the ROM pin, all worked fine. I have a SDK board and the manuals if you need any information. J ---- dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > As was mentioned, there is a different pin on the 8755A than > > the 8355 used on the sdk85. Did you check that it was > > at the correct level? > > Dwight > > > > From: chrise at pobox.com > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey > > > > Thank you Carl. I did receive a .BIN file of the monitor a while ago > > and just recently got it burned into an 8755A. Unfortunately, this has > > not fixed the problem-- or, rather, introduced a new problem as the > > little machine still does not run at all (frozen or not) with the new > > EPROM resident monitor. > > > > So, there is something a little more sinister going on here. Still > > investigating... > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From jgessling at yahoo.com Mon May 10 13:30:28 2010 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: <1871.57317.qm@web31914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I don't have that exact model but I've got a NIB 28-262 Science Fair 200 in 1 set. Box is beat up but inside it looks like it's never been used. Has a manual and loose parts. Not sure all the loose parts are there, there are several bundles of different length wires (never unwrapped) and a single ear phone. Maybe I can talk you into taking the whole thing. Regards, Jim From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 10 13:46:12 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:46:12 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , Message-ID: From: Dan Gahlinger Sent: Friday, May 07, 2010 8:04 PM > Fortran the first high-level language, I think that would be open to debate. > Indeed, wikipedia says otherwise... and I quote: Oh, brother. Wikipedia? Really? A place where any moron with an id?e fixe can spout nonsense and remove the contributions of experts in the field? > The first high-level programming language to be designed for a computer was > Plankalk?l, developed for the German Z3 by Konrad Zuse between 1943 and 1945. OK, let's call FORTRAN the first *successful* high-level programming language for multiple machine architectures. Not that that will make any difference. > LISP, COBOL and Algol are also mentioned during the 1950s, so "first" is > perhaps debateable. Do we count the programmable "Looms" ? LISP 1: 1958. COBOL: 1957. Algol: 1958 (presentation language), 1960 (first implementations on computer). FORTRAN: 1954. What's your problem? Oh, I know, I know, "Don't feed the trolls." Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 10 13:53:42 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 11:53:42 -0700 Subject: Education in Latin^Wprogramming [was RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN] In-Reply-To: References: <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 8, 10 03:12:25 pm Message-ID: From: Tony Duell Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 9:57 AM > I agree with the statemetn that 'every child should learn to program. > Not because they will become programmer,s but becuase programming > teaches you to think logically about solving problems and to break up > problems into simple steps'/ Or something like that anyway... Hmm. Much the same thing used to be said of the teaching of Latin to grammar school students. There's always *something* that we ought to be teaching children, in order to let/make them "think logically about solving problems". There is no such magic formula. Humans are not logical, no matter what they may think of themselves, and there is nothing to be done about that. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 10 14:12:26 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 12:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teaching(Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> <20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net> <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20100510115947.S56617@shell.lmi.net> > > How can BASIC not be taught? Every computer has it's own version of BASIC, > > whereas (as I understand it) Visual Basic is only available for modern > > computers. On Mon, 10 May 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > Visual Basic 1.0 is for DOS and Microsoft PDS 7.1 and QuickBASIC 4.5 can > be found on various abandonware sites. Interesting note - QB45 is > available via the MSDN, but PDS71 isn't. The curriculum committee is rather hostile to the idea of teaching stuff "found on various abandonware sites". Besides, what's wrong with GWBASIC? I used to be able to get K&R past them by calling it "a classic work", and by declaring it to be one of two texts for the class (the other being some modern POS that we never bothered to open) For a FIRST class in C, the commonly used textbooks are Deitel (600p, of which 300 are about C, plus discussion of C++, Java, etc.), and "C Primer Plus". Both are pretty good for beginners, but neither prepares the student for what will happen when scanf is fed unformatted/sloppy data. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 10 11:59:30 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:59:30 +0100 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com><4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net><4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Can you supply a link to the rare Nintendo cartridge, or more info so I can such for it? (I suspect searching for "rare Nintendo cartridge" would end up with a few thousand results on eBay (or Google) instead of the one I'm after) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 2:34 AM Subject: Re: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 > I thought we were in such a horrible recession... seems like people have > a lot of disposable income lately... > > $25,000 Kenbak > $31,000 Atari 2600 "Air Raid" boxed Cartridge > $41,000 Rare Nintendo cartridge > > > Curt > > > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > >>>> eBay item number: 320522921808 > >>>> > >>>> This is one of John's original hand-built machines. Details in the > >>>> auction. > >>>> > >>>> It's at $6,400 now. I personally expect that to more than triple by the > >>>> end, but that's just me. :) > >>>> > >>> Half-hour to go, it's up to $9,900 .... will be fun to watch this go > >>> up! Wish I could afford to bid. :( > >>> > >>> > >> Wow .... with 20 seconds to go, it jumped from 9900 to 20100, then with > >> five seconds to go it jumped to 25600, then ended. > >> > > > > I can appreciate some degree of added value for this particular unit giving > > it's direct providence to Blankenbaker, and as much I might think the Kenbak is > > neat for technical reasons such as a minimal processor made from SSI/MSI > > devices, bit-serial architecture, and so on, this is one where I really scratch > > my head over the dollar value people are placing on them, given their obscurity > > in their day and relative lack of influence on computing development. > > (just MHO ...) > > > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 10 12:13:01 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 18:13:01 +0100 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Well, a "hello world" "programme" in HTML only takes 1 line of code!! :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > On May 9, 2010, at 5:58 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > > There is now a degrading of the term programming to include > > entering data on things like an on board computer of a car to > > configuring spreadsheets and designing web pages. > > This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML > programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness > abounds. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 10 12:50:02 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 18:50:02 +0100 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><201005091723.o49HNepk005254@billY.EZWIND.NET> <09524597-65C8-48FB-809A-234BAC09F713@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <011f01caf074$b5f8bb50$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 6:37 PM Subject: Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > On May 9, 2010, at 1:17 PM, John Foust wrote: > >> This has been going on for a while, and it's maddening. "HTML > >> programming" is a term I hear with some frequency. Cluelessness > >> abounds. > > > > You have a better term for the hodgepodge of tools and languages > > used in contemporary webs? Maybe "web developer"? > > Yes, that term is accurate. It is not programming. > > > Who gets hired for knowing only HTML and not any ancillary language > > to go along with it? > > Actually, very few people get hired for even knowing HTML, because > most web developers don't know HTML. The vast majority of HTML on > the WWW today, easily 95% is program-generated. I'm not talking > about dynamic sites, I'm talking about authoring tools like > Dreamweaver. Writing HTML in an editor is considered "old school" > and today's web developers call it, incorrectly, "programming". > You can usually tell program generated HTML from hand-coded HTML. With the former, each HTML tag is on a new line, whereas with the latter the code is in a format specific to the user. For example, when doing tables I usually group the Table Row and Table Data/Header tags on the same lines. It would be interesting to see how many web developers could actually correct HTML code, should an error occur. I self-taught myself HTML code back in 2000, simply by looking at the source of some webpages and making a few notes. Now, I use HTML guide websites to keep up with the newer tags that come about, though I do very little HTML coding these days (my website hasn't been updated in a few years, and Geocities has officially closed anyway), except for my 'Infobase' (an offline collection of pages with useful information regarding computers, which I use as guides). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 10 12:18:03 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 18:18:03 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof References: Message-ID: <011e01caf074$b3fd8790$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 5:59 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof > > Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", > > "mainframe"? > > If you lose your screwdrive inside it, it's a micro. If you lose your > multimeter inside it, it's a mini. If you lose your 'scope inside it, it's > a mainframe. And if you lose yourself iniside it, it's a supercomputer. > > :-) > > -tony Are you speaking from experience? :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 10 13:11:36 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:11:36 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof References: , <00c501caee3c$5649dc50$3427610a@user8459cef6fa>, <4BE70223.5070007@gmail.com> <4BE6B289.14721.F6DB30@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <012001caf074$b83bf490$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 9:03 PM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof > On 9 May 2010 at 14:42, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > Andrew Burton wrote: > > >> Do you really think that we can successfully correct the meaning of > > >> "hackers"? > > > > > > About as much chance as correcting the modern mis-informed erm... > > > non-geeks about the terms billion and trillion. > > > > If you're talking about the long scale vs. short scale debate, it has > > nothing to do with being misinformed. It has more to do with > > "C-O-L-O-R" vs. "C-O-L-O-U-R". > > "Thousand million" is a good disambiguator that seems to be > comprehesible on either side of the pond. At Wolfram Mathword, under > the term "milliard": > > http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Milliard.html > > "In French and German usage, one milliard equals 10^9=1000000000. > > American usage does not have a number called the milliard, instead > using the term billion to denote 10^9. British usage, while formerly > using "milliard," has in recent years adopted the American convention > (Mish 2003, p. 852). This constitutes a fortunate development for > standardization of terminology, albeit a somewhat regrettable > development from the point of view that the (former) British > convention for representing large numbers is simpler and more logical > than the American one. > So what I earlier referred to as being 'mis-informed' is actually language specific? So if someone in the US orders a billion from a company in the UK, how many of the item should they expect to receive?! Is that why orders are given in numbers and not words, and why cheques have both? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 10 14:36:08 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE7A3BD.8050406@gmail.com> References: <201005100139.o4A1dW1k012310@floodgap.com> <4BE7A3BD.8050406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100510123440.N56617@shell.lmi.net> > > I still handcode all my web pages, but I get told that I should be using a > > content management system instead, whereupon I hit them with my cane and > > use my dentures to leave bitemarks in their arm. > > Do they then get off your lawn? That depends on how hard you swing the cane. (It is so frustrating to have it in hand, and never hit anybody with it!) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 10 13:36:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:36:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100508112234.GC23471@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at May 8, 10 06:22:34 am Message-ID: > > Thank you Carl. I did receive a .BIN file of the monitor a while ago > and just recently got it burned into an 8755A. Unfortunately, this has > not fixed the problem-- or, rather, introduced a new problem as the > little machine still does not run at all (frozen or not) with the new > EPROM resident monitor. > > So, there is something a little more sinister going on here. Still > investigating... Assuming you've not made a mistake programming the 8755, and that the 8755 is not defective, have you checked the state of pin 5? It's N/C on the 8355, and Vpp on the 8755. There's a link on the SDK-85 board associated with this pin. You might check that. If you put the original monitor ROM in its socket and put the 8755 in the ROM extension socket, can you read out the nrwly-programmed EPROM at the extension ROM location? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 10 13:39:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:39:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: new acquisitions In-Reply-To: <540109.80755.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 8, 10 11:25:01 am Message-ID: > > definitely not a GDM-1950/1952 or anything close. In fact HP had a > newer monitor that was bigger and more grotesque then this one (that one > had a plastic cover w/no swivel base, this one is metal). Haev you looked on the Australian HP Museum site (http://www.hpmuseum.net/)? You might find a luser manual there, which might give you the horizontal and vertical freqeuncies. There might even be a CE manual (aka boardswapper guide) which occasionally contain useful infromation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 10 13:43:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:43:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE6B320.6756.F927EF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 9, 10 01:05:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 May 2010 at 18:05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > OK, so if I buy a 2GHz PC, what signal is that 2GHz describing? And > > how does it relate to signals I can measure? > > You can poke and prod all you want, but I believe that you won't find > a pin on a Pentium 2GHz x86 with a 2GHz waveform on it. Just goes to That's qhat I thoguht (and while my 'scope would give up at 1GHz (well, it is over 40 years old...) I dow own a frequency counter that goes way beyond that. Yes it's old. It contains no ICs (and no valves other than the display nixie tues, it's all discrete transistors). HP, of course :-) So I ask again. What clock signal is this 2GHz refering to? And does it relate in any way to some signal I can actually put a probe on? > show you how meaningless clock speed is. Well I have long supsected that :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 10 14:28:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 20:28:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100509143631.L22790@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 9, 10 02:51:55 pm Message-ID: > > As I have said many times before, I leant nothing useful at school. The > > fact that I didn;t have one clueful mathementics of physics teacher may > > have something to do with that. That $deity I had access to interesting > > books... > > You don't want to get me started on what they are trying to do to the > library. ""Kernighan & Ritchie" and "Knuth" are more than five years old, When I was at school (equivalent of 'high school'), I had to get speical permision to read books at random in the library. Go figure... > they should be replaced with something more current!" I used to use Oh, I love it when they do that _provided I get to go to the library sale. I've got so interesting books that way for peanuts... > astronomy as a counter argument, but now they think that ALL of those must > be replaced to reflect Pluto's "demotion". Argh! FWIW, I still routinely use books on electronics written 70 or more years ago. And I wouldn't want to be without K&R. I am not an astronomer, but can you please explain to me how what you call a particular object (wheter Pluto is a planet or not) has any effect on things like planetary motion? Last time I looked Newton's laws didn't depend on the name you gave to the object ... > > > > [Oh, I learnt plenty of things while I was at school. Like how to pick a > > lock, how to make a master key, how to design state machines, and the > > like. But that was not what I was supposed to be learning). > > "supposed to be"?? > A good teacher doesn't REALLY mind deviating a little from the lesson > plan. Oh, I didn't learn this in the lessons. I learnt it while I was at school. By doing things like carefully removing and dismantling locks after school and figuring out what the differences were. I doubt there was a teacher in the place who had any idea about even very elementary locksmithing.. Or any other form of engineering for that matter. In general the teachers, at least in phusics and maths (where i had enough knowledge to realise what was going on) have a very elementary grasp of the subject. I have forgotten the number of arguments I had with them, and the numebr of times they turned out to be totally wrong. But perhaps this will illustrate it. I was given the question 'Describ a method of measuring the value of a capacitor' (No, this is not a trick quesiton, 'value' means what it normally means and is measured in farads...) Now I had a good idea what he was expecting, since there was a totally useless method described in the standard textbook involving a vibrating contact. The fact that it had fundamental systematic errors bothered me. So I described the simple AC bridge circuit -- 2 capacitors, 2 resistors in a breidge. Result : Zero marks with the comment 'That's not a measurement, it's a comparison'. Now, to this day I would like to see a definition of measurement that does not involve comaprison to a standard. And in general the most accurate methods involve comparison to a standard of the same type as the qunatity being measured. But anyway... I wish I'd had 'Measuements in Radio Engineering' back then. It starts of with 'measuements of circuit constants at low frequencies' and gives many bridge cirucits. Any schoolteacher who things he knows more about electrical measuremnts than Fred Terman is almost cerainly mistaken (I assume everyone hwere knows who that is...) > > Too much emphassis is placed on paper qualifications these days... It's a > > problem for me, since I don't have any particularly relevant ones. Lack > > of these bits of paper does not mean you can't do the job, conversely > > having them doesn't mean you can... Oh well... > > College administrators who know that they will be laid off someday assign > THEMSELVES credentials! Then they can be re-assigned to teach when nobody > above them has the guts to fire them! REALLY! I think a large LART is certainly needed ;-) > > > I agree with the statemetn that 'every child should learn to program. Not > > because they will become programmer,s but becuase programming teaches you > > to think logically about solving problems and to break up problems into > > simple steps'/ Or something like that anyway... > > I also see way too many students who were never handed a bulb, a battery, > a nail, and some pieces of wire, . . . Err, yes... Only the other day I had a physics teacehr inflicted on me who assured me he had seen a DC motor with no commutator or other polarity-revesing device running off a single cell. And now, it wasn't Barlow's wheel or something similar (essentially the homopolar motor). He claimed a normal round rotor. I am still trying to work out what he saw... I had a misspent childhood playing with such things. Which has been quite useful,m actually... Rewinding small motors doesn't worry me at all. Just as well sine my HP9125 (see, it's almost on-topic) had a pair of burnt-out motors in it when I got it. Not any more... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 10 14:38:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 20:38:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100509145544.A22790@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 9, 10 03:01:04 pm Message-ID: > about 20 years ago, I worte some trivial programs in Postscript. I'll Postscript is certainly a programming language. I would agree that writing it by hand is programming. > maintain that that WAS programming, albeit not very significant. > BUT, as soon as it gets labelled "programming", the jerk who clicks the > "Postscript" output button in the page making program that he uses > (without mastery) will start calling himself a "programmer". Agreed... Another example would be TeX and/or Metafont. When used in the normal way I would n't claim it was 'programming. But both are in fact complete programming languages It is techncially possible (although very inefficient) to do anything computable using them. At which point I would claim you were programming. I've come across several progrmas, from opearing system 'SYSGEN' programs to application geneators which output code in a particlaur prgoramming language (in the former case, they patch the assembly language or whatever source code to include the options you want, to access I/O devices at particular addresses, and so on). However, although the output is a program, I wou;dn't call using SYSGEN to be 'programming' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 10 14:43:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 20:43:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100509163424.H22790@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 9, 10 04:36:59 pm Message-ID: > If you lose a screw in a lap-top, you turn it upside down and shake it. > If you lose a screw in a microcomputer, you turn it on its side. > If you lose a screw in a minicomputer, you get out a flashlight. > If you lose a screw in a mainframe, you order another box of screws. ... SInce if it finds its way across the supply lines it will be vapourised anyway. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 15:09:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:09:53 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE86811.7000406@neurotica.com> On 5/10/10 2:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I dow own a frequency counter that goes way > beyond that. Yes it's old. It contains no ICs (and no valves other than > the display nixie tues, it's all discrete transistors). HP, of course :-) 5340? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 10 15:09:53 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teaching(Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100510115947.S56617@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> <20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net> <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <20100510115947.S56617@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 May 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> How can BASIC not be taught? Every computer has it's own version of BASIC, >>> whereas (as I understand it) Visual Basic is only available for modern >>> computers. > > On Mon, 10 May 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: >> Visual Basic 1.0 is for DOS and Microsoft PDS 7.1 and QuickBASIC 4.5 can >> be found on various abandonware sites. Interesting note - QB45 is >> available via the MSDN, but PDS71 isn't. > > The curriculum committee is rather hostile to the idea of teaching stuff > "found on various abandonware sites". Besides, what's wrong with GWBASIC? > I was addressing his comment that VB was only available on "modern" machines. AFAIK, VB1 will work even with an XT. GWBASIC is also one of those things found on abandonware sites. :) > I used to be able to get K&R past them by calling it "a classic work", and > by declaring it to be one of two texts for the class (the other being some > modern POS that we never bothered to open) > Turbo C is a good choice for students, but won't teach much about the tool chain. (make, link, lib, etc) > Plus". Both are pretty good for beginners, but neither prepares the > student for what will happen when scanf is fed unformatted/sloppy data. > Well for that, you need _users_. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 10 15:07:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 21:07:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Education in Latin^Wprogramming [was RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN] In-Reply-To: from "Rich Alderson" at May 10, 10 11:53:42 am Message-ID: > > From: Tony Duell > Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 9:57 AM > > > I agree with the statemetn that 'every child should learn to program. > > Not because they will become programmer,s but becuase programming > > teaches you to think logically about solving problems and to break up > > problems into simple steps'/ Or something like that anyway... > > Hmm. Much the same thing used to be said of the teaching of Latin to > grammar school students. FWIW I spent several years learning Latin, and while I can't rememebr much of it, I'm darn glad I did. > There's always *something* that we ought to be teaching children, in > order to let/make them "think logically about solving problems". There > is no such magic formula. Humans are not logical, no matter what they > may think of themselves, and there is nothing to be done about that. I stil lbeleive that most people can think logicially, and should be taught to do so. I wonder how else you can solve complex problems. I also wonder just hwat the point of a 'school' is, other than to discourage people from thinking... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 10 15:09:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 21:09:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <011e01caf074$b3fd8790$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 10, 10 06:18:03 pm Message-ID: > > > Now, what are the definitions of "microcomputer", "minicomputer", > > > "mainframe"? > > > > If you lose your screwdrive inside it, it's a micro. If you lose your > > multimeter inside it, it's a mini. If you lose your 'scope inside it, it's > > a mainframe. And if you lose yourself iniside it, it's a supercomputer. > > > > :-) > > > > -tony > > Are you speaking from experience? :) Only the first 2 :-) -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 10 15:13:47 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 10, 10 08:38:36 pm" Message-ID: <201005102013.o4AKDl6h010858@floodgap.com> > Another example would be TeX and/or Metafont. When used in the normal way > I would n't claim it was 'programming. But both are in fact complete > programming languages It is techncially possible (although very > inefficient) to do anything computable using them. At which point I would > claim you were programming. Conclusion: HTML is not Turing-complete. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ----- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 15:17:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:17:13 -0400 Subject: Education in Latin^Wprogramming [was RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE869C9.7050608@neurotica.com> On 5/10/10 4:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> From: Tony Duell >> Sent: Sunday, May 09, 2010 9:57 AM >> >>> I agree with the statemetn that 'every child should learn to program. >>> Not because they will become programmer,s but becuase programming >>> teaches you to think logically about solving problems and to break up >>> problems into simple steps'/ Or something like that anyway... >> >> Hmm. Much the same thing used to be said of the teaching of Latin to >> grammar school students. > > FWIW I spent several years learning Latin, and while I can't rememebr > much of it, I'm darn glad I did. Well here's where I've got to disagree. I took three years of Latin, and I found it to be a complete waste of time. "Latin is a dead language, it's plain enough to see. It's killed a hundred thousand men and now it's killing me!" ;) > I stil lbeleive that most people can think logicially, and should be > taught to do so. I wonder how else you can solve complex problems. In my country, we don't solve complex problems. We go to the store and buy things that we can't afford, and we sit on the couch and watch other people play games. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 10 15:28:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:28:32 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <012001caf074$b83bf490$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> References: , <012001caf074$b83bf490$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BE80A00.31785.DF06BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2010 at 19:11, Andrew Burton wrote: > So if someone in the US orders a billion from a > company in the UK, how many of the item should they expect to > receive?! Is that why orders are given in numbers and not words, and > why cheques have both? Well, as I mentioned, I listen to the BBC World Service a lot and today they were taling about the ECB bailout fund as being one Trillion dollars. Economics aside, I don't think they were talking about 10**18 simoleons, unless they were Zimbabwean simoleons. If the BBC uses the short form billion, trillion, then it's pretty safe to assume that the long form is sunsetting. --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon May 10 15:27:54 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 15:27:54 -0500 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005102013.o4AKDl6h010858@floodgap.com> References: from Tony Duell at "May 10, 10 08:38:36 pm",<201005102013.o4AKDl6h010858@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > From: spectre at floodgap.com > Subject: Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:13:47 -0700 > > > Another example would be TeX and/or Metafont. When used in the normal way > > I would n't claim it was 'programming. But both are in fact complete > > programming languages It is techncially possible (although very > > inefficient) to do anything computable using them. At which point I would > > claim you were programming. > > Conclusion: HTML is not Turing-complete. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ----- Another good example of a nonstandard programming language - Postscript In his column in the Radio Electronics mag, Don Lancaster (TTL Cookbook) was always able to make it do amazing things. He has put a bunch of this up on his website: http://www.tinaja.com/post01.asp Randy Dawson _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 10 14:36:04 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 20:36:04 +0100 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net><20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net><013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <019b01caf080$49856700$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 2:06 PM Subject: Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > On Sat, 8 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > > How can BASIC not be taught? Every computer has it's own version of BASIC, > > whereas (as I understand it) Visual Basic is only available for modern > > computers. > > > Visual Basic 1.0 is for DOS and Microsoft PDS 7.1 and QuickBASIC 4.5 can > be found on various abandonware sites. Interesting note - QB45 is > available via the MSDN, but PDS71 isn't. > > g. > If it was originally for DOS, why is it called Visual BASIC? Every BASIC form (I know of) has visual elements to it (e.g. PRINT, PLOT, CIRCLE, FILL etc.) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 10 15:42:05 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:42:05 -0700 Subject: Education in Latin^Wprogramming [was RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN] References: Message-ID: <4BE86F9D.D66DDB41@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I stil lbeleive that most people can think logicially, and should be > taught to do so. I wonder how else you can solve complex problems. The Monte Carlo method - although one can argue there is a logicality to it too. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 10 15:49:09 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <019b01caf080$49856700$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net><20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net><013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <019b01caf080$49856700$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: >>> How can BASIC not be taught? Every computer has it's own version of > BASIC, >>> whereas (as I understand it) Visual Basic is only available for modern >>> computers. >>> >> Visual Basic 1.0 is for DOS and Microsoft PDS 7.1 and QuickBASIC 4.5 can >> be found on various abandonware sites. Interesting note - QB45 is >> available via the MSDN, but PDS71 isn't. >> >> g. >> > > If it was originally for DOS, why is it called Visual BASIC? Every BASIC > form (I know of) has visual elements to it (e.g. PRINT, PLOT, CIRCLE, FILL > etc.) > It actually has a text windowing library. It's pretty neat for what it is. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From chrise at pobox.com Mon May 10 10:17:46 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:17:46 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <20100508112234.GC23471@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100510151746.GT12136@n0jcf.net> On Monday (05/10/2010 at 07:18AM -0700), dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > As was mentioned, there is a different pin on the 8755A than > > the 8355 used on the sdk85. Did you check that it was > > at the correct level? Yes... there are several jumper pads on the PCB which you strap differently whether there is an 8355, 8755 or 8755A in the socket. I strapped for 8755A, which is what I am using. No joy. I'm suspecting a micro-fine crack in a PCB trace as the next culprit so I will soon get back to looking for that. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From fmc at reanimators.org Mon May 10 16:05:15 2010 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 14:05:15 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE69070.6325.71AB6D@cclist.sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Sun\, 09 May 2010 10\:37\:36 -0700") References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <201005091723.o49HNepk005254@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE69070.6325.71AB6D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201005102105.o4AL5FwA030404@lots.reanimators.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 May 2010 at 12:17, John Foust wrote: >> You have a better term for the hodgepodge of tools and languages >> used in contemporary webs? Maybe "web developer"? Who gets hired for >> knowing only HTML and not any ancillary language to go along with it? > > "Hodgepodge" is exactly the right term. How much of the web is > actually HTML 1.0-viewable now? Has anyone tried doing any > meaningful web browsing with an old copy of Mosaic? Last time I looked, Netscape 0.9 was sufficiently unuseful due to its not sending a Host: header with its requests, which kept it from getting at most of 2002's web sites, let alone today's. This wasn't about HTML though, it was about HTTP, and the direction taken probably did a lot to conserve IPv4 address space. -Frank McConnell From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 10 16:14:37 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 14:14:37 -0700 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100510151746.GT12136@n0jcf.net> References: <20100508112234.GC23471@n0jcf.net>, , <20100510151746.GT12136@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Hi Chris A good way to look for such opens ( usually of feed thrus ) is to use a two input scope and combine both inputs with one of them inverted. Check the easy ones first, like address and data lines. Even a non-active line will show a difference in voltage when probed this way. I've used this on a couple of trouble cases with good results. Dwight > Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 10:17:46 -0500 > From: chrise at pobox.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey > CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Monday (05/10/2010 at 07:18AM -0700), dwight elvey wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > As was mentioned, there is a different pin on the 8755A than > > > > the 8355 used on the sdk85. Did you check that it was > > > > at the correct level? > > Yes... there are several jumper pads on the PCB which you strap differently > whether there is an 8355, 8755 or 8755A in the socket. I strapped for 8755A, > which is what I am using. No joy. > > I'm suspecting a micro-fine crack in a PCB trace as the next culprit so I > will soon get back to looking for that. > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 16:33:54 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:33:54 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005102105.o4AL5FwA030404@lots.reanimators.org> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <201005091723.o49HNepk005254@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE69070.6325.71AB6D@cclist.sydex.com> <201005102105.o4AL5FwA030404@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <4BE87BC2.80901@neurotica.com> On 5/10/10 5:05 PM, Frank McConnell wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 9 May 2010 at 12:17, John Foust wrote: >>> You have a better term for the hodgepodge of tools and languages >>> used in contemporary webs? Maybe "web developer"? Who gets hired for >>> knowing only HTML and not any ancillary language to go along with it? >> >> "Hodgepodge" is exactly the right term. How much of the web is >> actually HTML 1.0-viewable now? Has anyone tried doing any >> meaningful web browsing with an old copy of Mosaic? > > Last time I looked, Netscape 0.9 was sufficiently unuseful due to its > not sending a Host: header with its requests, which kept it from > getting at most of 2002's web sites, let alone today's. This wasn't > about HTML though, it was about HTTP, and the direction taken probably > did a lot to conserve IPv4 address space. It did a tremendous amount to conserve address space. Name-based virtual hosts saved our butts. The Internet would be a very different place if it weren't for that scheme. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 10 16:42:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 14:42:31 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE87BC2.80901@neurotica.com> References: , <201005102105.o4AL5FwA030404@lots.reanimators.org>, <4BE87BC2.80901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE81B57.9054.122C0CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2010 at 17:33, Dave McGuire wrote: > It did a tremendous amount to conserve address space. Name-based > virtual hosts saved our butts. The Internet would be a very different > place if it weren't for that scheme. For one thing, it'd be IPv6 based--it's what, 12 years old this year? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 16:59:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:59:13 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE81B57.9054.122C0CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201005102105.o4AL5FwA030404@lots.reanimators.org>, <4BE87BC2.80901@neurotica.com> <4BE81B57.9054.122C0CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BE881B1.7020008@neurotica.com> On 5/10/10 5:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> It did a tremendous amount to conserve address space. Name-based >> virtual hosts saved our butts. The Internet would be a very different >> place if it weren't for that scheme. > > For one thing, it'd be IPv6 based--it's what, 12 years old this year? ...and still dead in the water. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 10 17:15:37 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 15:15:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005102105.o4AL5FwA030404@lots.reanimators.org> from Frank McConnell at "May 10, 10 02:05:15 pm" Message-ID: <201005102215.o4AMFcaB007392@floodgap.com> > > You have a better term for the hodgepodge of tools and languages > > used in contemporary webs? Maybe "web developer"? Who gets hired for > > knowing only HTML and not any ancillary language to go along with it? > > "Hodgepodge" is exactly the right term. How much of the web is > actually HTML 1.0-viewable now? Has anyone tried doing any > meaningful web browsing with an old copy of Mosaic? It sort of works with 2.7b5, but that version's main problem is it barfs on content types with charsets, for example. Thus, http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/mosaic/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FOOLS! I WILL DESTROY YOU ALL! ASK ME HOW! -- "Girl Genius" 8/29/07 -------- From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Mon May 10 18:03:42 2010 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 00:03:42 +0100 Subject: Education in Latin^Wprogramming [was RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN] In-Reply-To: <4BE869C9.7050608@neurotica.com> References: <4BE869C9.7050608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10 May 2010 21:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > In my country, we don't solve complex problems. We go to the store and > buy things that we can't afford, and we sit on the couch and watch other > people play games. > > ... a predominant human behaviour (well at least in bit where I live) of the 21st century summed up in 31 words. Nicely done. I was going to say I never got any benefit from learning some latin (which has now all completely atrophied), but I am very fond of pizza. There's not much hope for children learning to solve complex problems when it's completely beyond their teachers :( I despair when I see 'ICT' in the school curriculum reduced to bloody pie charts created with you-know-what. -- Pete Edwards "It looks just like a Telefunken U-47" - Frank Zappa From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 10 18:36:59 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:36:59 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> On 05/10/2010 11:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > So I ask again. What clock signal is this 2GHz refering to? The x86 processors from Intel and AMD contain an internal PLL which multiplies the external clock to produce an internal clock for the processor pipeline. Most of the CPU core is running on that core clock. (In the case of the Pentium 4 and derived processors, some of it actually operates at twice the core clock.) Instructions take a variable number of cycles to execute, but there are multiple instructions "in flight" at any given time. The average number of instructions executed per clock cycle is greater than one. > And does it > relate in any way to some signal I can actually put a probe on? > It does in that it is a multiple of the signal that you can probe. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 10 18:37:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shipping floppy drives - Disk in or out? In-Reply-To: <337276.13994.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <337276.13994.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100510163333.B65199@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 May 2010, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > When floppy drives were new, they usually came with that cardboard piece > inserted, and with the drive door closed. When shipping a floppy drive, > is it really best to have something closed in the drive? WHY do you suppose the manufacturer did? > I'm talking > about single head 5 1/4" drives here. I've seen several methods: > Nothing inserted, drive open > nothing inserted, drive closed > Disk inserted, drive closed > cardboard protector, drive closed > disk, in sleeve, inserted *sideways*, drive open (can't close it like that) You can close the door on a Tandon TM100 with the disk in any of the EIGHT possible positions. > disk inserted backwards, drive closed. a reasonable choice if you don't have the cardboard > Now, on a single head full height drive, there really isn't a whole lot > to damage. The sping on the lever mechanism is pretty strong, so it's > unlikely that it'll slam down and hit the head unless it's really > dropped hard. And, if it does, it's just got a fuzzy pressure pad there > - not another head. Also, with something as thin as a disk inserted, > does it really protect anything? I suppose that the closed position is > more stable, since then the mechanism would be fairly solid, and you'd > have less chance of damaging the drive door, but would that mean any > shock would press on the head? > > A similar question would probably be - when single head full height > drives were new, did they ship with a cardboard protector? Yes. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 10 18:47:06 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:47:06 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: <011501caec99$4b531d10$b7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 5, 10 08:28:12 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 2010 10:42 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: > thebeginningof > > > For those of us that don't know any better (I'm a little wiser now, > having > > aka 'marketroids' ? > > > worked with the Motorola 68000 CPU) . It's a bit like the days when > games > > consoles had 16-bit, 32-bit etc. stamped on their beautiful plastic > case. It > > That;s another meaningless number in a lot of cases. Is the Philips > P850 > 8 bit (width of the ALU and most intenral data paths) or 16 bit (how it > appears to the machine code programmer -- an 'add' instruction adds 2 > 16 > bits numbers, and uses the ALU twice, onve for each byte). Is the IBM > PC > 8 bit (width of the data bus) or 16 bit? > I had a lot of fun troubleshooting my Nova 1200. The bus is 16 bits, but the internal pathway through the ALU is *4* bits - they used a single 74181 ALU. It was the reason I learned the demux feature of my logic analyzer. :-) -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 10 18:47:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 16:47:32 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> References: , <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BE838A4.144.1953621@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2010 at 16:36, Eric Smith wrote: > On 05/10/2010 11:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > So I ask again. What clock signal is this 2GHz refering to? > The x86 processors from Intel and AMD contain an internal PLL which > multiplies the external clock to produce an internal clock for the > processor pipeline. ..and most of those x86 CPUs are usually driven by an external PLL which is run from a master oscillator running at 14.31818MHz. So, one I suppose, could argue that they're *all* 14.3MHz, although I wouldn't try... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 10 19:00:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > Well, a "hello world" "programme" in HTML only takes 1 line of code!! :) Well, a "hello world" "programme" in BASIC only takes 1 line of code!! :) That eliminates a lot of frustration for somebody's FIRST exposure to programming. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 10 19:17:17 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 17:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teaching(Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> <20100507144747.Q28926@shell.lmi.net> <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <20100510115947.S56617@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100510170936.F67339@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 May 2010, Gene Buckle wrote: > Turbo C is a good choice for students, but won't teach much about the tool > chain. (make, link, lib, etc) Yes I required MY students to write some programs using any command-line compiler, and some with any IDE. I provided "Personal-C" (downloadable version of DeSmet) and Turbo-C (was downloadable from Borland!) for those who didn't have any compilers (such as GCC or Microsoft Max-Bloat C/C++) already. Some students stuck with GCC, most stuck with Turbo-C. > > Plus". Both are pretty good for beginners, but neither prepares the > > student for what will happen when scanf is fed unformatted/sloppy data. > Well for that, you need _users_. :) a few simple demonstrations, and then using gets() and writing their own atoi(), etc. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 19:52:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 20:52:25 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> References: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> On 5/10/10 7:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 05/10/2010 11:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> So I ask again. What clock signal is this 2GHz refering to? > The x86 processors from Intel and AMD contain an internal PLL which > multiplies the external clock to produce an internal clock for the > processor pipeline. Most of the CPU core is running on that core clock. > (In the case of the Pentium 4 and derived processors, some of it > actually operates at twice the core clock.) Instructions take a variable > number of cycles to execute, but there are multiple instructions "in > flight" at any given time. The average number of instructions executed > per clock cycle is greater than one. Sometimes! Also, don't forget that most (all?) x86 processors spend the majority of their wall-clock time waiting for memory. I'd be surprised if it were anywhere near one, much less greater than one, for anything other than very short bursts. In fact, Intel themselves realized this when they came up with the HT scheme. (then took a generation or two to get it right in the face of the replay mechanism) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 10 20:58:05 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:58:05 -0600 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE8B9AD.2000102@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 10 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: >> Well, a "hello world" "programme" in HTML only takes 1 line of code!! :) > > Well, a "hello world" "programme" in BASIC only takes 1 line of code!! :) > > > That eliminates a lot of frustration for somebody's FIRST exposure to > programming. > 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" 20 STOP > > I figure 2 lines. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 10 21:09:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE8B9AD.2000102@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net> <4BE8B9AD.2000102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100510190650.Q67339@shell.lmi.net> > 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" > 20 STOP > > > I figure 2 lines. With Microsoft BASIC interpreters, you can get away with leaving off the explicit termination. 'course getting used to implicit termination leads to some dandy surprises on their first ASM programs :-) From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 10 21:45:37 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 19:45:37 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> References: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com>,<4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Ah, another myth to bust. Intel did not come up with hyperthreading. It was developed by researchers at the University of Washington in collaboration with DEC, and would have shipped in the 21464. (I took Computer Architecture from one of those researchers.) It attempts to take advantage of thread-level parallelism, as instruction-level parallelism (leveraged by superscalar architectures) still leaves a fair amount of 'dawdle time' for the chip's functional units. Modern multilevel memory architectures are pretty good at keeping processors fed -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 5:52 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof On 5/10/10 7:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 05/10/2010 11:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> So I ask again. What clock signal is this 2GHz refering to? > The x86 processors from Intel and AMD contain an internal PLL which > multiplies the external clock to produce an internal clock for the > processor pipeline. Most of the CPU core is running on that core clock. > (In the case of the Pentium 4 and derived processors, some of it > actually operates at twice the core clock.) Instructions take a variable > number of cycles to execute, but there are multiple instructions "in > flight" at any given time. The average number of instructions executed > per clock cycle is greater than one. Sometimes! Also, don't forget that most (all?) x86 processors spend the majority of their wall-clock time waiting for memory. I'd be surprised if it were anywhere near one, much less greater than one, for anything other than very short bursts. In fact, Intel themselves realized this when they came up with the HT scheme. (then took a generation or two to get it right in the face of the replay mechanism) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 10 22:02:47 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:02:47 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE881B1.7020008@neurotica.com> References: <4BE81B57.9054.122C0CC@cclist.sydex.com> <4BE881B1.7020008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201005102302.48065.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 10 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/10/10 5:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> It did a tremendous amount to conserve address space. > >> Name-based virtual hosts saved our butts. The Internet would be a > >> very different place if it weren't for that scheme. > > > > For one thing, it'd be IPv6 based--it's what, 12 years old this > > year? > > ...and still dead in the water. Really? From my laptop: pat at comet:~$ ping6 ipv6.google.com PING ipv6.google.com(iy-in-x67.1e100.net) 56 data bytes 64 bytes from iy-in-x67.1e100.net: icmp_seq=1 ttl=56 time=67.5 ms Seems to be working just fine for me. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 10 22:09:49 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:09:49 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> References: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> <4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201005102309.49253.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 10 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/10/10 7:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On 05/10/2010 11:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> So I ask again. What clock signal is this 2GHz refering to? > > > > The x86 processors from Intel and AMD contain an internal PLL which > > multiplies the external clock to produce an internal clock for the > > processor pipeline. Most of the CPU core is running on that core > > clock. (In the case of the Pentium 4 and derived processors, some > > of it actually operates at twice the core clock.) Instructions take > > a variable number of cycles to execute, but there are multiple > > instructions "in flight" at any given time. The average number of > > instructions executed per clock cycle is greater than one. > > Sometimes! Also, don't forget that most (all?) x86 processors > spend the majority of their wall-clock time waiting for memory. Running HPL on a modern x86 processor tends to disagree with you (though on the recent 6+ core chips, memory wait can be significant if you're pushing all the cores). More likely, it's wasting lots of cycles waiting on a user or I/O device to do something. Besides, with the large caches on modern x86 chips, and the codes "compression" you get by using a CISC architecture instead of those nasty RISC architectures (though POWER does a good job of this with its compression), you spend a lot less time waiting on memory. As well, code fits in the cache better, because it's smaller than what you'd get on a RISC chip. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 22:13:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:13:53 -0400 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005102302.48065.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4BE81B57.9054.122C0CC@cclist.sydex.com> <4BE881B1.7020008@neurotica.com> <201005102302.48065.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <0A256ACE-490C-4EE4-BA2E-7BF8D26B6E26@neurotica.com> On May 10, 2010, at 11:02 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>> It did a tremendous amount to conserve address space. >>>> Name-based virtual hosts saved our butts. The Internet would be a >>>> very different place if it weren't for that scheme. >>> >>> For one thing, it'd be IPv6 based--it's what, 12 years old this >>> year? >> >> ...and still dead in the water. > > Really? > > From my laptop: > > > pat at comet:~$ ping6 ipv6.google.com > PING ipv6.google.com(iy-in-x67.1e100.net) 56 data bytes > 64 bytes from iy-in-x67.1e100.net: icmp_seq=1 ttl=56 time=67.5 ms > > Seems to be working just fine for me. You know what I mean, Pat. I played with it pretty enthusiastically too...a decade ago. I hope (sorta) that it does take off. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 22:19:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:19:39 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <201005102309.49253.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> <4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> <201005102309.49253.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6C1D9A27-A4EE-4859-8B0F-0C0D6C44C907@neurotica.com> On May 10, 2010, at 11:09 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>> So I ask again. What clock signal is this 2GHz refering to? >>> >>> The x86 processors from Intel and AMD contain an internal PLL which >>> multiplies the external clock to produce an internal clock for the >>> processor pipeline. Most of the CPU core is running on that core >>> clock. (In the case of the Pentium 4 and derived processors, some >>> of it actually operates at twice the core clock.) Instructions take >>> a variable number of cycles to execute, but there are multiple >>> instructions "in flight" at any given time. The average number of >>> instructions executed per clock cycle is greater than one. >> >> Sometimes! Also, don't forget that most (all?) x86 processors >> spend the majority of their wall-clock time waiting for memory. > > Running HPL on a modern x86 processor tends to disagree with you > (though > on the recent 6+ core chips, memory wait can be significant if you're > pushing all the cores). You work in a supercomputer environment...you're running far more modern stuff than most of the rest of the world. I'm talking about the HT/Replay chips. Think 2.4GHz 32-bit Pentiums. Those are the boxes that I see everywhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 22:21:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:21:13 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com>, <4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4923A7FC-2D4F-420E-BB58-86283E16B8EA@neurotica.com> On May 10, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Ian King wrote: > Ah, another myth to bust. Intel did not come up with > hyperthreading. It was developed by researchers at the University > of Washington in collaboration with DEC, and would have shipped in > the 21464. (I took Computer Architecture from one of those > researchers.) AHH! Thanks for the correction. I should've known not to believe their marketroids. > It attempts to take advantage of thread-level parallelism, as > instruction-level parallelism (leveraged by superscalar > architectures) still leaves a fair amount of 'dawdle time' for the > chip's functional units. Modern multilevel memory architectures > are pretty good at keeping processors fed -- Ian Yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 10 22:20:53 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 21:20:53 -0600 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100510190650.Q67339@shell.lmi.net> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com> <011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net> <4BE8B9AD.2000102@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100510190650.Q67339@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BE8CD15.7050805@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >> 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD" >> 20 STOP >>> >> I figure 2 lines. > > With Microsoft BASIC interpreters, you can get away with leaving off the > explicit termination. 'course getting used to implicit termination leads > to some dandy surprises on their first ASM programs :-) > Why? ... All good programers start with PAL on a PDP ## computer. :-) Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 10 22:26:33 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 21:26:33 -0600 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <6C1D9A27-A4EE-4859-8B0F-0C0D6C44C907@neurotica.com> References: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> <4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> <201005102309.49253.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6C1D9A27-A4EE-4859-8B0F-0C0D6C44C907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE8CE69.609@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Running HPL on a modern x86 processor tends to disagree with you (though >> on the recent 6+ core chips, memory wait can be significant if you're >> pushing all the cores). > > You work in a supercomputer environment...you're running far more modern > stuff than most of the rest of the world. I'm talking about the > HT/Replay chips. Think 2.4GHz 32-bit Pentiums. Those are the boxes that > I see everywhere. I would say most of the wait is still 'dumb' I/O to process the windows user interface. > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 10 22:40:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:40:39 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE8CE69.609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> <4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> <201005102309.49253.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6C1D9A27-A4EE-4859-8B0F-0C0D6C44C907@neurotica.com> <4BE8CE69.609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <30BA1692-1013-4763-92A6-09EC2541310B@neurotica.com> On May 10, 2010, at 11:26 PM, Ben wrote: >>> Running HPL on a modern x86 processor tends to disagree with you >>> (though >>> on the recent 6+ core chips, memory wait can be significant if >>> you're >>> pushing all the cores). >> >> You work in a supercomputer environment...you're running far more >> modern >> stuff than most of the rest of the world. I'm talking about the >> HT/Replay chips. Think 2.4GHz 32-bit Pentiums. Those are the boxes >> that >> I see everywhere. > > I would say most of the wait is still 'dumb' I/O to process the > windows > user interface. You're assuming the use of Windows; I'm speaking more in general terms. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon May 10 22:49:43 2010 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 22:49:43 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ah, another myth to bust. Intel did not come up with hyperthreading. It was developed by researchers at the University of Washington in collaboration with DEC, and would have shipped in the 21464. (I took Computer Architecture from one of those researchers.) It attempts to take advantage of thread-level parallelism, as instruction-level parallelism (leveraged by superscalar architectures) still leaves a fair amount of 'dawdle time' for the chip's functional units. Modern multilevel memory architectures are pretty good at keeping processors fed -- Ian There was also work done on hyperthreading at MIT. The first time I heard the idea of hardware multi-threading was a conference luncheon when I happened to sit at the same table as Jack Dennis. This would have been around '92 or '93. BLS From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 10 22:51:35 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 21:51:35 -0600 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <30BA1692-1013-4763-92A6-09EC2541310B@neurotica.com> References: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> <4BE8AA49.1050807@neurotica.com> <201005102309.49253.pat@computer-refuge.org> <6C1D9A27-A4EE-4859-8B0F-0C0D6C44C907@neurotica.com> <4BE8CE69.609@jetnet.ab.ca> <30BA1692-1013-4763-92A6-09EC2541310B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BE8D447.2060608@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 10, 2010, at 11:26 PM, Ben wrote: >>>> Running HPL on a modern x86 processor tends to disagree with you >>>> (though >>>> on the recent 6+ core chips, memory wait can be significant if you're >>>> pushing all the cores). >>> >>> You work in a supercomputer environment...you're running far more modern >>> stuff than most of the rest of the world. I'm talking about the >>> HT/Replay chips. Think 2.4GHz 32-bit Pentiums. Those are the boxes that >>> I see everywhere. >> >> I would say most of the wait is still 'dumb' I/O to process the windows >> user interface. > > You're assuming the use of Windows; I'm speaking more in general terms. That includes X-windows. Other than people running servers, most stuff here by average users, running user aps or 3D games. Even the most important research program I can think of is modest in memory requirements - just accurate multi-precision math. > -Dave > From tingox at gmail.com Mon May 10 16:16:34 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 23:16:34 +0200 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org> <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi, On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 7 May 2010, Randy Dawson wrote: > > put valtrep in quotes on your google search. This cuts back on the > > offending valtrex hits. > > Its there, but in recent history, nowhere near the genesis of FORTRAN. > > When I did, I got 28 hits. Other than "Valtrep Optical Scanning > Software", the only computer related ones were message posts by somebody > with a username of "transnet", who "used a Sentry-70 with Valtrep in > 1986", and signed some of his posts with "Dan." > (complete with the period, similar to our "Dan.") > > Did you get some hits that I didn't? > I wonder why nobody has offered a suggestion for the name yet? Anyway, here is mine (based purely on speculation, no facts involved): VALTREP - "validation of test reports", or perhaps "values from test reports" :-) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From lee_courtney at acm.org Mon May 10 17:00:51 2010 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 15:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP3000 Series 37 Front Panel Key In-Reply-To: References: <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 8, 10 03:12:25 pm Message-ID: <282197.12441.qm@web35302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I posted a note on the MPE Newsgroup, but its pretty dead these days. Anyone here have an idea where I might a) find a front panel key for an HP3000 Series 37 or b) what key I could ask a locksmith for? TIA! Lee Courtney From ats at offog.org Tue May 11 05:05:50 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:05:50 +0100 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 In-Reply-To: <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> (Andrew Burton's message of "Mon, 10 May 2010 17:59:30 +0100") References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: "Andrew Burton" writes: > Can you supply a link to the rare Nintendo cartridge, or more info so > I can such for it? That'd be one of the two copies of "Stadium Events" that have been discovered recently. After the first one went for $13,105: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370330327400 another collector checked his stack of old games, and found a sealed copy that ended up selling for $41,300: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140384097750 -- Adam Sampson From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue May 11 08:38:48 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:38:48 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>, , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org>, , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: oooh, that's not bad. but it still doesnt explain it as a programming language or how it's related to fortran. someone else also mentioned "value translation with extra precision" but I thought that was a bit of a stretch. Dan. > I wonder why nobody has offered a suggestion for the name yet? > Anyway, here is mine (based purely on speculation, no facts involved): > VALTREP - "validation of test reports", or perhaps "values from test > reports" > > :-) > -- > Regards, > Torfinn Ingolfsen _________________________________________________________________ Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue May 11 08:42:06 2010 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:42:06 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , , <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net> , , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org> , , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> , Message-ID: <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2010-05-11 at 09:38 -0400, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > oooh, that's not bad. > but it still doesnt explain it as a programming language or how it's related to fortran. > They both have 7 letters in their name. Other than that, I suspect there's no relationship at all. > someone else also mentioned "value translation with extra precision" but I thought that was a bit of a stretch. > > Dan. > > > I wonder why nobody has offered a suggestion for the name yet? > > Anyway, here is mine (based purely on speculation, no facts involved): > > VALTREP - "validation of test reports", or perhaps "values from test > > reports" > > > > :-) > > -- > > Regards, > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > _________________________________________________________________ > Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 11 09:03:04 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:03:04 -0400 Subject: Commodore C2N tape drive belt replacement? Message-ID: Hi, All, I've been fiddling with PETs lately and have found to my dismay that my original c. 1978 C2N just doesn't push the tape along as fast as it should. I opened it up, cleaned some minor funk out of the innards, but the old drive belt is just a little sloppy and has a kink on it where it sat around the motor pulley for a number of years between uses. The symptom is that FF and REW speeds are not uniform, there's no real "grab" when pulling on the belt or manually spinning different pulleys, and there is visible slackness in the belt. Loads are spotty, and they mostly fail. The "secret" trick of holding down the ">" key when the tape is moving does show that the CPU sees flux transitions, but it fails to recognize what's on the tape(s) as valid data most of the time. I know the tapes are good, and a slipping belt explains all the observed symptoms. It's an easy enough part to replace, but does anyone know where to get a proper replacement from? It's a continuous rubber belt, with a square cross-section just under 1mm on a side, probably about 250mm- 300mm long, give or take a bit (I didn't measure it). It looks entirely ordinary in the context of 1970s cassette transports. Thanks, From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue May 11 09:06:02 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:06:02 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: ,, ,, <20100507130200.N24632@shell.lmi.net>,, ,, <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org>,, ,, ,, <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>,, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: well that's definitely not true. the structure, functions, reserved words, etc are all almost identical. That's why i'm looking for a sample of some code. a few (dozen) replies back someone supplied a link to some message threads that contained some limited code samples. but there wasn't enough there to really say anything except it was very fortran-like > Subject: RE: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > From: bdwheele at indiana.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:42:06 -0400 > CC: cctech at classiccmp.org > > On Tue, 2010-05-11 at 09:38 -0400, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > oooh, that's not bad. > > but it still doesnt explain it as a programming language or how it's related to fortran. > > > > They both have 7 letters in their name. Other than that, I suspect > there's no relationship at all. > > > > someone else also mentioned "value translation with extra precision" but I thought that was a bit of a stretch. > > > > Dan. > > > > > I wonder why nobody has offered a suggestion for the name yet? > > > Anyway, here is mine (based purely on speculation, no facts involved): > > > VALTREP - "validation of test reports", or perhaps "values from test > > > reports" > > > > > > :-) > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > Torfinn Ingolfsen > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 > > _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 11 09:13:40 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:13:40 -0500 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005101630.o4AGUV7c061341@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20100509143631.L22790@shell.lmi.net> <201005101630.o4AGUV7c061341@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <201005111420.o4BEKPVL017658@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:56 AM 5/10/2010, John Foust wrote: >To simplify, I bought four $1 old-style incandescent 3 volt (two AA) >flashlights, disassembled the bulbs, soldered wires to them, and >inserted them into the circuit. >Anyone care to predict what happened with two of these bulbs in series, >either with 3 volts or 6 volts? I thought someone would nibble on this. The answer? Only one bulb would light. - John From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue May 11 09:28:45 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:28:45 -0500 Subject: Commodore C2N tape drive belt replacement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's an easy enough part to replace, but does anyone know where to > get a proper replacement from? If you can't find a proper replacement, you might be able to try what I did for an amiga floppy drive. I found that a beige rubber band could stretch to the right size providing some, but not too much tension. The problem was that the rubber band was 1/4" wide. I was able to cut it right down the center with an ordinary pair of scissors so that I had two 1/8" wide belts. It worked great. Since these rubber bands are available in all shapes and sizes, it's probably not difficult to find one that's the right diameter, then cut it down to the right width. brian From ragooman at comcast.net Tue May 11 09:31:40 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:31:40 -0400 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4BE96A4C.5090808@comcast.net> jim s wrote: > The 13,105 item was purchased by wyostartrek ( 346 ) no feedback left > by seller for buyer. Feedback left on 2/14/10 > 41,300 bid had no feedback links to use for finding the buyer. > > for what it's worth, this is over a recalled game, the higher price > for the one which is "factory sealed" Apparently, the new eBay policy for anonymous bidding is not so anonymous after all I still wondered if you can still see who was bidding--must be some kind of reverse search possible on the seller. =Dan From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Tue May 11 09:39:45 2010 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:39:45 +0100 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org> <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: On 11 May 2010 15:06, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > well that's definitely not true. > the structure, functions, reserved words, etc are all almost identical. > > That's why i'm looking for a sample of some code. > > a few (dozen) replies back someone supplied a link to some message threads > that contained some limited code samples. > but there wasn't enough there to really say anything except it was very > fortran-like > Has it not yet occurred to you that this language/tool/product may have been based on Fortran, rather than the other way round? -- Pete Edwards "It looks just like a Telefunken U-47" - Frank Zappa From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue May 11 09:50:41 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:50:41 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org>, , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, , Message-ID: yes it has actually, since some of those pages came to light. it's entirely possible that valtrep was "purpose-built" for the systems it ran on. even the dates I can find of 1970 still push it back newer than fortran from the 50s havent seen direct links from ieee etc on any excess verbage. there's almost no historical information on it at all, or on the computers it ran it (at least not much). the world may never know, I'm ok with that, but Fred will probably raise a fuss... > > a few (dozen) replies back someone supplied a link to some message threads > > that contained some limited code samples. > > but there wasn't enough there to really say anything except it was very > > fortran-like > > > > > Has it not yet occurred to you that this language/tool/product may have been > based on Fortran, rather than the other way round? _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes to be won with Hotmail. Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729709 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 11 10:02:09 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:02:09 +0100 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > yes it has actually, since some of those pages came to light. > > it's entirely possible that valtrep was "purpose-built" for the systems it ran on. > even the dates I can find of 1970 still push it back newer than fortran from the 50s > > havent seen direct links from ieee etc on any excess verbage. > there's almost no historical information on it at all, or on the computers it ran it (at least not much). > > the world may never know, I'm ok with that, but Fred will probably raise a fuss... What I'm not getting is how or why you feel that something that you dimly remember from the 1970s is in any way an ancestor to something that was in wide use some twenty years earlier. I don't follow your reasoning here. What it sounds like to me is that you saw some kind of programmable marking software, not a true programming language, on an electronic optical mark reading system, not an actual computer /per se/, and you have parlayed this into being the first high-level programming language. Yes, it's entirely possible it was based on Fortran, but lots of things were based on Fortran, including BASIC. And that you stick to this even when lots of people who know a great deal more about the subject than you tell you that you are incorrect. I find that very odd and irrational behaviour. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From shumaker at att.net Tue May 11 10:05:50 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:05:50 -0400 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4BE9724E.6000103@att.net> with very little knowledge of the game systems, what do you mean by "recalled game"? curious... steve shumaker jim s wrote: > The 13,105 item was purchased by wyostartrek ( 346 ) no feedback left > by seller for buyer. Feedback left on 2/14/10 > 41,300 bid had no feedback links to use for finding the buyer. > > for what it's worth, this is over a recalled game, the higher price > for the one which is "factory sealed" > > > > On 5/11/2010 3:05 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: >> "Andrew Burton" writes: >> >>> Can you supply a link to the rare Nintendo cartridge, or more info so >>> I can such for it? >> That'd be one of the two copies of "Stadium Events" that have been >> discovered recently. After the first one went for $13,105: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370330327400 >> >> another collector checked his stack of old games, and found a sealed >> copy that ended up selling for $41,300: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140384097750 >> > From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Tue May 11 10:06:38 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:06:38 +0100 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4BE96A4C.5090808@comcast.net> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> <4BE96A4C.5090808@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20100511160638.44902kw8byl5bwkk@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting Dan Roganti : > Apparently, the new eBay policy for anonymous bidding is not so > anonymous after all > I still wondered if you can still see who was bidding--must be some > kind of reverse search possible on the seller. I dunno why they made bidding anonymous, it's much harder to spot (as a bidder), if the thing is being artificallay inflated etc. Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 11 10:15:06 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:15:06 +0100 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4BE9724E.6000103@att.net> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> <4BE9724E.6000103@att.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 4:05 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > with very little knowledge of the game systems, what do you mean by > "recalled game"? > > curious... > > steve shumaker IIRC in this case the makers recalled the product & most of them went back from the shops to the manufacturer, who destroyed them. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From trag at io.com Tue May 11 10:15:49 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:15:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Teaching(Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3955865d79b712b917cb66263a12c9a7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 12:12:26 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin > I used to be able to get K&R past them by calling it "a classic work", and > by declaring it to be one of two texts for the class (the other being some > modern POS that we never bothered to open) > > For a FIRST class in C, the commonly used textbooks are Deitel (600p, of > which 300 are about C, plus discussion of C++, Java, etc.), and "C Primer > Plus". Both are pretty good for beginners, but neither prepares the > student for what will happen when scanf is fed unformatted/sloppy data. The clearest C book for beginners that I've read was "C: Step-by-Step" by Waite & Prata. It actually teaches the material, rather than just throwing it on the floor and hoping the student will pick it up. Supplemented by K&R it made an excellent teaching vehicle. My opinion and obviously different folks learn in different manners, but I felt that Waite & Prata filled in the holes better and left fewer unexplained assumptions than other works that I have seen. And it won't give one back problems the way Deitel will. Jeff Walther From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 11 10:36:54 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:36:54 -0500 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN Message-ID: <201005111540.o4BFePsH022069@billY.EZWIND.NET> A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html - John From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 11 11:05:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 09:05:46 -0700 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005111420.o4BEKPVL017658@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , <201005101630.o4AGUV7c061341@billY.EZWIND.NET>, <201005111420.o4BEKPVL017658@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4BE91DEA.31877.3603C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2010 at 9:13, John Foust wrote: > At 10:56 AM 5/10/2010, John Foust wrote: > >To simplify, I bought four $1 old-style incandescent 3 volt (two AA) > >flashlights, disassembled the bulbs, soldered wires to them, and > >inserted them into the circuit. Anyone care to predict what happened > >with two of these bulbs in series, either with 3 volts or 6 volts? > > I thought someone would nibble on this. The answer? Only one bulb > would light. In defense of the list, you didn't completely specify the initial conditions. Obviously, the bulbs weren't identical. I think a more instructive demonstration might be "I have two ordinary incandescent light bulbs (line/mains operation rated). One is labeled as 40W; the other as 100W. I hook them in series and connect the resulting circuit to mains/line current. Which one glows brighter?" --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 11 11:14:33 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:14:33 -0500 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE91DEA.31877.3603C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201005101630.o4AGUV7c061341@billY.EZWIND.NET> <201005111420.o4BEKPVL017658@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE91DEA.31877.3603C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201005111621.o4BGL0Ro024357@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:05 AM 5/11/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >In defense of the list, you didn't completely specify the initial >conditions. Obviously, the bulbs weren't identical. The four bulbs were identical as far as I could tell. Same flashlights, off the rack, as I said "I bought four $1 flashlights". I was perplexed. I assume it was due to some initial high resistance that dropped once one of the bulbs won the battle to light, which lowered the resistance for that bulb. I was moreso perplexed about the poor specification for this take-home assignment. How the average student was supposed to come up with four bulbs and a power source to correctly light them, when instructed to use "Christmas bulbs"? LEDs? Incandescents? What voltage? My son reported that no one in the class came as close to an actual circuit as he did. He got full credit because his circuit was correct as judged by the teacher, even though it did not work as it was supposed to. - John From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 11 11:40:30 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:40:30 -0400 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com><4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net><4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com><011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com><4BE96A4C.5090808@comcast.net> <20100511160638.44902kw8byl5bwkk@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1C1DF379AF89438F8625AC4176677F69@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 11:06 AM Subject: Re: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay > > I dunno why they made bidding anonymous, it's much harder to spot (as > a bidder), if the thing is being artificallay inflated etc. > > Cheers. > > Phill. > To help shill bidders drive up the price so ebay gets more in fees maybe? From ats at offog.org Tue May 11 12:20:05 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:20:05 +0100 Subject: Commodore C2N tape drive belt replacement? In-Reply-To: (Ethan Dicks's message of "Tue, 11 May 2010 10:03:04 -0400") References: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks writes: > It's an easy enough part to replace, but does anyone know where to get > a proper replacement from? The same places that sell spares for regular tape recorders will normally do a range of generic replacement belts; you should be able to find something that'll fit. In the UK, I'd look at CPC or Cricklewood; a Google search for "cassette drive belt" finds several US mail-order places. If the belt is only slightly loose, you could try sitting it in very hot water for a while as a temporary fix... -- Adam Sampson From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 11 12:37:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:37:33 -0700 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: <1C1DF379AF89438F8625AC4176677F69@dell8300> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com><4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net><4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com><011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com><4BE96A4C.5090808@comcast.net> <20100511160638.44902kw8byl5bwkk@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <1C1DF379AF89438F8625AC4176677F69@dell8300> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 9:41 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 11:06 AM > Subject: Re: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay > > > > > > I dunno why they made bidding anonymous, it's much harder to spot (as > > a bidder), if the thing is being artificallay inflated etc. > > > > Cheers. > > > > Phill. > > > > To help shill bidders drive up the price so ebay gets more in fees > maybe? > In addition to your astute observation: it also defeats the self-regulating efforts of a community such as ours, to avoid getting into bidding wars with each other that artificially inflate prices (and boost ePay fees). Not that I'm cynical.... -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 11 12:41:54 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:41:54 -0700 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> <4BE9724E.6000103@att.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 8:15 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay > > On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 4:05 PM, steve shumaker > wrote: > > with very little knowledge of the game systems, what do you mean by > > "recalled game"? > > > > curious... > > > > steve shumaker > > IIRC in this case the makers recalled the product & most of them went > back from the shops to the manufacturer, who destroyed them. > I Googled this and scanned the results, and did not learn why it was recalled. But it seems that gaming enthusiasts are a deep-pocketed bunch! I mean, $41.3k and you can't even play it? (Think about it: removing it from the 'original packaging' would diminish its value to $13k.) But it does remind me of one of my favorite software recall stories: Microsoft sold a collection of clip art that had a search feature. If you searched the word 'monkey' you were presented an image of a family of black people... sitting on the *monkey bars* at the playground. In an attempt to provide diversity in its collection, MS learned that no good deed goes unpunished.... -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 11 13:05:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:05:03 -0700 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005111621.o4BGL0Ro024357@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , <4BE91DEA.31877.3603C2@cclist.sydex.com>, <201005111621.o4BGL0Ro024357@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4BE939DF.10156.A33A7F@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2010 at 11:14, John Foust wrote: > The four bulbs were identical as far as I could tell. Same > flashlights, off the rack, as I said "I bought four $1 flashlights". Quite possibly Far East-origin flashlights? Put together from whatever the local spot market makes available. BTW, the local Harbor Freight "Chinese Tool Store" is giving away 9 LED flashlights with spun aluminum housings (3 AAA batteries included), so these bargain things can't come to much on the wholesale market. > I was perplexed. I assume it was due to some initial high resistance > that dropped once one of the bulbs won the battle to light, which > lowered the resistance for that bulb. More likely, mismatched bulbs. Incandescent Christmas-tree strings are typically series-connected with good results. > I was moreso perplexed about the poor specification for this take-home > assignment. How the average student was supposed to come up with four > bulbs and a power source to correctly light them, when instructed to > use "Christmas bulbs"? LEDs? Incandescents? What voltage? In fact, most Christmas-tree (wire-lead) replacement lamps will operate on 6V just fine. I've got a string that I decorate my tuba with at Christmastime that runs from 4 C cells at pretty much full brightness. Even a 120V incandescent will typically show some glow at 12V, so voltage (as long as it's not too high) with incandescent lamps has a fairly wide range. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 11 13:25:46 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:25:46 -0700 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN References: <201005111540.o4BFePsH022069@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4BE9A12A.65D9F763@cs.ubc.ca> John Foust wrote: > > A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming Languages > > http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html According to that history, non-sequential time influences are common in the history of programming languages. 1936 - [Alonzo Church & lambda calculus] ... This criticism occurs in spite of the fact that C has not yet been invented. 1965 - [BASIC] ... Kemeny and Kurtz go to 1964. 1970 - [Pascal] ... This criticism happens in spite of the fact that C has not yet been invented. 1983 - [C++] ... The resulting language is so complex that programs must be sent to the future to be compiled by the Skynet artificial intelligence. Valtrep fits right in, we need another entry: ca. 1970 - Valtrep influences the creation of FORTRAN (see 1957). FLASH! I know what happened: Doc Brown left a page of a Valtrep listing inside the DeLorean when Marty took it back to the 50's. The page was stuck to the bottom of Marty's shoe when he exited the DeLorean. It was picked up by Backus and inspired him to produce FORTRAN. See, everything can be explained by pop culture. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 11 13:37:52 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 13:37:52 -0500 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE939DF.10156.A33A7F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BE91DEA.31877.3603C2@cclist.sydex.com> <201005111621.o4BGL0Ro024357@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE939DF.10156.A33A7F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201005111838.o4BIc8ab031335@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:05 PM 5/11/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >Quite possibly Far East-origin flashlights? Put together from >whatever the local spot market makes available. >More likely, mismatched bulbs. Incandescent Christmas-tree strings >are typically series-connected with good results. Yes, four seemingly identical bulbs from identical flashlights from Walmart. I tried any two in series. Only one lights. >In fact, most Christmas-tree (wire-lead) replacement lamps will >operate on 6V just fine. The tiny push-in type? No, for me, they didn't light at 3 volts and blew out like fast fuses at 6 volts. I didn't have any old screw-in types to test. - John From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue May 11 13:42:06 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:42:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com><4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net><4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com><011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com><4BE96A4C.5090808@comcast.net> <20100511160638.44902kw8byl5bwkk@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <1C1DF379AF89438F8625AC4176677F69@dell8300> Message-ID: <666334.50179.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The one thing that's really put me off of buying anything on eBay (unless it's something I REALLY want) are the shipping and handling charges. They are automatically calculated these days by eBay, and they always seem ridiculously high. ________________________________ From: Ian King To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, May 11, 2010 12:37:33 PM Subject: RE: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 9:41 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 11:06 AM > Subject: Re: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay > > > > > > I dunno why they made bidding anonymous, it's much harder to spot (as > > a bidder), if the thing is being artificallay inflated etc. > > > > Cheers. > > > > Phill. > > > > To help shill bidders drive up the price so ebay gets more in fees > maybe? > In addition to your astute observation: it also defeats the self-regulating efforts of a community such as ours, to avoid getting into bidding wars with each other that artificially inflate prices (and boost ePay fees). Not that I'm cynical.... -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 11 13:43:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teaching(Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <3955865d79b712b917cb66263a12c9a7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <3955865d79b712b917cb66263a12c9a7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <20100511112607.S201@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 11 May 2010, Jeff Walther wrote: > The clearest C book for beginners that I've read was "C: Step-by-Step" by > Waite & Prata. It actually teaches the material, rather than just > throwing it on the floor and hoping the student will pick it up. > Supplemented by K&R it made an excellent teaching vehicle. My opinion and > obviously different folks learn in different manners, but I felt that > Waite & Prata filled in the holes better and left fewer unexplained > assumptions than other works that I have seen. "C Primer Plus" is also by Waite, Prata, and Martin. I like their style more than Deitel. Deitel's coverage of C derivatives is useful, but too large a portion of his book. There is another "C primer" type of title by somebody else. Pretty good, but not as versatile as the Waite Group stuff. For a FIRST ASM book I liked Lafore's book (another Waite Group title), but it is thoroughly out of print. Unfortunately, most of the other classes in the area spend most of the first semester on how to use THE MICROSOFT C COMPILER, and don't ever show the student a command line nor a SIMPLE IDE. Many of those students hit "RUN" in the IDE, and never even understand the requirement to create an .EXE file! (nor how to use other compilers when necessary) In ASM, I started them off in DEBUG, and they write a few very simple programs before we switch over to MASM. It seemed to give a better understanding of what a program is, and what is going on when building a program. I seemed to have gotten a reputation for being the hardest, and toughest grader, but MY students had the ability to pick up an unfamiliar tool and work through how to use it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 11 13:48:52 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE9A12A.65D9F763@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201005111540.o4BFePsH022069@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE9A12A.65D9F763@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100511114541.F201@shell.lmi.net> > > http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html On Tue, 11 May 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > According to that history, non-sequential time influences are common in the > history of programming languages. > Valtrep fits right in, we need another entry: > ca. 1970 - Valtrep influences the creation of FORTRAN (see 1957). 1954? > FLASH! I know what happened: Doc Brown left a page of a Valtrep listing > inside the DeLorean when Marty took it back to the 50's. > The page was stuck to the bottom of Marty's shoe when he exited the > DeLorean. It was picked up by Backus and inspired him to produce FORTRAN. > See, everything can be explained by pop culture. The Sentry-70 uses a zero bit flux-capacitor as a processor? . . . and what John Titor is REALLY looking for is the Valtrep compiler! From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 11 14:29:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:29:02 -0700 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005111838.o4BIc8ab031335@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , <4BE939DF.10156.A33A7F@cclist.sydex.com>, <201005111838.o4BIc8ab031335@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4BE94D8E.30495.F01CFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2010 at 13:37, John Foust wrote: > At 01:05 PM 5/11/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, four seemingly identical bulbs from identical flashlights > from Walmart. I tried any two in series. Only one lights. It might be interesting to see what Mr. Ohmmeter says about the cold resistance of each lamp. --Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Tue May 11 14:49:46 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:49:46 -0400 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE94D8E.30495.F01CFE@cclist.sydex.com> (sfid-20100511_153020_978524_A1F65EA5) References: , <4BE939DF.10156.A33A7F@cclist.sydex.com>, <201005111838.o4BIc8ab031335@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE94D8E.30495.F01CFE@cclist.sydex.com> (sfid-20100511_153020_978524_A1F65EA5) Message-ID: On May 11, 2010, at 3:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 May 2010 at 13:37, John Foust wrote: > >> At 01:05 PM 5/11/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Yes, four seemingly identical bulbs from identical flashlights >> from Walmart. I tried any two in series. Only one lights. > > It might be interesting to see what Mr. Ohmmeter says about the cold > resistance of each lamp. I've seen this too - also helping my son :-) My guess is the resistance changes as the filament begins to "glow". Or at least that's what I remember thinking at the time. caveat: there may have been gin envolved - as I recall it was the weekend. I'd be curious to know the real answer. -brad From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 11 15:05:37 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 13:05:37 -0700 Subject: Teaching(Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100511112607.S201@shell.lmi.net> References: <3955865d79b712b917cb66263a12c9a7.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <20100511112607.S201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 11:44 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Teaching(Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > On Tue, 11 May 2010, Jeff Walther wrote: > > The clearest C book for beginners that I've read was "C: Step-by- > Step" by > > Waite & Prata. It actually teaches the material, rather than just > > throwing it on the floor and hoping the student will pick it up. > > Supplemented by K&R it made an excellent teaching vehicle. My > opinion and > > obviously different folks learn in different manners, but I felt that > > Waite & Prata filled in the holes better and left fewer unexplained > > assumptions than other works that I have seen. > [snip] > > Unfortunately, most of the other classes in the area spend most of the > first semester on how to use THE MICROSOFT C COMPILER, and don't ever > show > the student a command line nor a SIMPLE IDE. Many of those students > hit > "RUN" in the IDE, and never even understand the requirement to create > an > .EXE file! (nor how to use other compilers when necessary) > Microsoft's developer products are built to make coders more productive, which means it's going to hide the 'hard' parts that we agree young people should learn - unless, of course, they are going to be dependent on MS products for their entire careers. And no one would want that to happen, would they? ;-) Frankly, I have been and more more irritated with each iteration of "Visual Studio." It keeps trying to manage my work for me, and IMO it keeps getting in the way! One other annoyance is that they seem to refactor the UI with every release so when I need to do something like add a lib or include path I spend more time looking for the right dialog -> tab -> treebranch -> editbox than I spent writing the code in the first place. And why haven't they figured out how to parse and use makefiles? That's been a standard for, oh, lo these many moons? Oh, that's right, you don't need makefiles if you built your code in Visual Studio. Here, I'd better have another glass of this Kool-Aid... ahh, all better now. -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 11 15:08:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 13:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Time travel (will be: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100511114541.F201@shell.lmi.net> References: <201005111540.o4BFePsH022069@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE9A12A.65D9F763@cs.ubc.ca> <20100511114541.F201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100511130655.D201@shell.lmi.net> > > > http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html > > > According to that history, non-sequential time influences are common in the > > history of programming languages. > > Valtrep fits right in, we need another entry: > > ca. 1970 - Valtrep influences the creation of FORTRAN (see 1954). If a FORTRAN derivative is sent back in time to become its predecessor, then who owns the IP rights? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 11 15:14:24 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:14:24 -0400 Subject: Time travel (will be: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100511130655.D201@shell.lmi.net> References: <201005111540.o4BFePsH022069@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE9A12A.65D9F763@cs.ubc.ca> <20100511114541.F201@shell.lmi.net> <20100511130655.D201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 5/11/10, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > > http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html >> > > >> > According to that history, non-sequential time influences are common in >> > the >> > history of programming languages. >> > Valtrep fits right in, we need another entry: >> > ca. 1970 - Valtrep influences the creation of FORTRAN (see 1954). > > If a FORTRAN derivative is sent back in time to become its predecessor, > then who owns the IP rights? John Titor, who else? -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Tue May 11 15:52:03 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 13:52:03 -0700 Subject: Time travel (will be: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100511130655.D201@shell.lmi.net> References: <201005111540.o4BFePsH022069@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE9A12A.65D9F763@cs.ubc.ca> <20100511114541.F201@shell.lmi.net> <20100511130655.D201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 1:09 PM >>> http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html >> According to that history, non-sequential time influences are common in the >> history of programming languages. >> Valtrep fits right in, we need another entry: >> ca. 1970 - Valtrep influences the creation of FORTRAN (see 1954). > If a FORTRAN derivative is sent back in time to become its predecessor, > then who owns the IP rights? Network Solutions, innit? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 11 16:02:24 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 17:02:24 -0400 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN References: , <4BE939DF.10156.A33A7F@cclist.sydex.com>, <201005111838.o4BIc8ab031335@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE94D8E.30495.F01CFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 3:29 PM Subject: Re: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > On 11 May 2010 at 13:37, John Foust wrote: > >> At 01:05 PM 5/11/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Yes, four seemingly identical bulbs from identical flashlights >> from Walmart. I tried any two in series. Only one lights. > > It might be interesting to see what Mr. Ohmmeter says about the cold > resistance of each lamp. > > --Chuck > > Any metal filaments have slightly different resistance when cold and when glowing hot, they are designed with the properties of metal when at operating temperature. Don't you get a voltage drop with each bulb in series? First bulb has enough voltage to light and the next one does not? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 11 15:34:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:34:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE86811.7000406@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 10, 10 04:09:53 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/10/10 2:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I dow own a frequency counter that goes way > > beyond that. Yes it's old. It contains no ICs (and no valves other than > > the display nixie tues, it's all discrete transistors). HP, of course :-) > > 5340? No, actually an HP5245 + mixer plug-in. Wonderful instrument, it's one of the models with a decade counter, latch and nixie driver in 8 transistors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 11 15:38:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:38:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 10, 10 02:14:37 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi Chris > A good way to look for such opens ( usually of feed thrus ) is to use a > two input scope and combine both inputs with one of them inverted. > Check the easy ones first=2C like address and data lines. How is this better than using a good ohmmeter (with the power off)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 11 15:42:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:42:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BE8989B.3000008@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 10, 10 04:36:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 05/10/2010 11:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > So I ask again. What clock signal is this 2GHz refering to? > The x86 processors from Intel and AMD contain an internal PLL which > multiplies the external clock to produce an internal clock for the > processor pipeline. Most of the CPU core is running on that core Sure... > clock. (In the case of the Pentium 4 and derived processors, some of it > actually operates at twice the core clock.) Instructions take a How do I know this 'core clock' actually exists? The more I hear about it, the more I think the whole thing is somewhat bogus! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 11 15:44:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:44:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 10, 10 05:00:59 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 10 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Well, a "hello world" "programme" in HTML only takes 1 line of code!! :) > > Well, a "hello world" "programme" in BASIC only takes 1 line of code!! :) Not on my oldest BASIC machine. It is 2 lines : 10 DISP "HELLO WORLD" 20 END The END is required, you get an error message if it's not there. I am sure from the somewhat non-standed BASIC (DISP rather than PRINT) you can work out what machine it is. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 11 15:52:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:52:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE91DEA.31877.3603C2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 11, 10 09:05:46 am Message-ID: > I think a more instructive demonstration might be "I have two > ordinary incandescent light bulbs (line/mains operation rated). One > is labeled as 40W; the other as 100W. I hook them in series and > connect the resulting circuit to mains/line current. Which one glows > brighter?" Since they are in series, they are both passing the same current. Therefore the power disipated is porportional to the resistance. A 40W bulb will have a higher resistance than a 100W bulb, so, making reasonable assumptions about the bulbs, the 40W one will be brighter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 11 16:00:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 22:00:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: from "Brad Parker" at May 11, 10 03:49:46 pm Message-ID: > My guess is the resistance changes as the filament begins to "glow". It does. The resistance increases as the filament gets hotter. In fact many bulbs apporximate a constant current device. I am going to have to do some experiments. I've connected bulbs in series many times and never had any problems.... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 11 16:06:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:06:38 -0700 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: , <4BE94D8E.30495.F01CFE@cclist.sydex.com> (sfid-20100511_153020_978524_A1F65EA5), Message-ID: <4BE9646E.10605.1497649@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2010 at 15:49, Brad Parker wrote: > I've seen this too - also helping my son :-) > > My guess is the resistance changes as the filament begins to "glow". > > Or at least that's what I remember thinking at the time. caveat: > there may have been gin envolved - as I recall it was the weekend. > > I'd be curious to know the real answer. Well, tungsten-filament incandescents have a strong positive temperature coefficient to their resistance, so it's entirely likely that the lamp with the highest cold resistance tends to glow much more brightly when in series. Cold resistance of a typical tungsten filament is around 1/10 that of the filament when the lamp is at full brightness. This is one of contributing factors to lamps going "poof" most often when the current is first applied. One used to be able to buy graphite "buttons" to insert in a lamp socket to ameliorate the effect. (Carbon has a higher cold resistance than hot resistance). Old 1950's era TV sets sometimes had an inrush current limiter to extend the life of the tube heaters. To extend your son's experiment a bit, it might be interesting to devise a switched setup where lamps can be switched quickly from parallel to series operation. (a DPDT switch should do the trick) to see if pre-heating the filaments has an effect. In other words, don't stop at the "book" experiment, but attempt to find a cause. That's what *real* learning is about, after all. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 11 16:11:07 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:11:07 -0700 Subject: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 10, 10 05:00:59 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 1:45 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > > > > On Mon, 10 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > Well, a "hello world" "programme" in HTML only takes 1 line of > code!! :) > > > > Well, a "hello world" "programme" in BASIC only takes 1 line of > code!! :) > > Not on my oldest BASIC machine. It is 2 lines : > > 10 DISP "HELLO WORLD" > 20 END > > The END is required, you get an error message if it's not there. I am > sure from the somewhat non-standed BASIC (DISP rather than PRINT) you > can > work out what machine it is. > > -tony The ultimate redundant statement: "non-standard BASIC". Yes, yes, I know there's an ANSI standard - but from what I've seen, it gets less respect than either Rodney Dangerfield or George W. Bush. -- Ian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 11 16:14:51 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 22:14:51 +0100 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <201005111838.o4BIc8ab031335@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4BE91DEA.31877.3603C2@cclist.sydex.com> <201005111621.o4BGL0Ro024357@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE939DF.10156.A33A7F@cclist.sydex.com> <201005111838.o4BIc8ab031335@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4BE9C8CB.3040604@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/05/2010 19:37, John Foust wrote: > At 01:05 PM 5/11/2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Quite possibly Far East-origin flashlights? Put together from >> whatever the local spot market makes available. >> More likely, mismatched bulbs. Incandescent Christmas-tree strings >> are typically series-connected with good results. > > Yes, four seemingly identical bulbs from identical flashlights > from Walmart. I tried any two in series. Only one lights. I think Chuck's got it. Electrical resistance (at least for common metals, as in a lightbulb filament) rises with temperature, sometimes dramatically. That's why, incidentally, light bulbs nearly always blow when first switched on rather than after running for a while: there's a high inrush current when the filament is cold. So what's probably happening is that the bulbs are indeed mismatched. At switch-on, one gets a bit more of the voltage across it, heats up more quickly, the resistance rises, so it gets even more of the voltage, and so on, while the other is starved. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 11 16:16:20 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 14:16:20 -0700 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE9646E.10605.1497649@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BE94D8E.30495.F01CFE@cclist.sydex.com> (sfid-20100511_153020_978524_A1F65EA5), <4BE9646E.10605.1497649@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 2:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > > On 11 May 2010 at 15:49, Brad Parker wrote: > > > I've seen this too - also helping my son :-) > > > > My guess is the resistance changes as the filament begins to "glow". > > > > Or at least that's what I remember thinking at the time. caveat: > > there may have been gin envolved - as I recall it was the weekend. > > > > I'd be curious to know the real answer. > > Well, tungsten-filament incandescents have a strong positive > temperature coefficient to their resistance, so it's entirely likely > that the lamp with the highest cold resistance tends to glow much > more brightly when in series. > > Cold resistance of a typical tungsten filament is around 1/10 that of > the filament when the lamp is at full brightness. > > This is one of contributing factors to lamps going "poof" most often > when the current is first applied. One used to be able to buy > graphite "buttons" to insert in a lamp socket to ameliorate the > effect. (Carbon has a higher cold resistance than hot resistance). > Old 1950's era TV sets sometimes had an inrush current limiter to > extend the life of the tube heaters. > > To extend your son's experiment a bit, it might be interesting to > devise a switched setup where lamps can be switched quickly from > parallel to series operation. (a DPDT switch should do the trick) to > see if pre-heating the filaments has an effect. > > In other words, don't stop at the "book" experiment, but attempt to > find a cause. That's what *real* learning is about, after all. > > --Chuck > Once upon a time I was asked to judge at a middle school science fair. I was very impressed with many of the students' projects, but one really stuck in my mind. The young lady had started out with a hypothesis, designed experiments to test it - and discovered that her original position was completely WRONG. Undismayed, she used the results to develop a new hypothesis, tested that and learned something new (and somewhat nonintuitive). That teacher had done a great job of teaching his students the scientific method - I made a point of finding him and complimenting him. He was gone the next year: at the (parochial) school, they had decided he wasn't church-y enough. -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 11 16:33:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 22:33:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE939DF.10156.A33A7F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 11, 10 11:05:03 am Message-ID: > > On 11 May 2010 at 11:14, John Foust wrote: > > > The four bulbs were identical as far as I could tell. Same > > flashlights, off the rack, as I said "I bought four $1 flashlights". Getting back to the original problem, I don't believe that the fact that a bulb came out of a torch that cost $1 uniquely specifies it :-) I've not seen the original message (my ISP's mail is something of a joke at the moment!) but as I understnad it, the OP had 4 similar filament bulbs in series connected to a PSU and only one lit up. Some questions : 1) What is the voltageof thePSU compared to th nominal voltage of the bulbs. If these are 3V bubls, is it s 3V PSU, a 12V PSU, or what? 2) Hat is the voltage across each bulb when they are wired in series and turend ou? 3) What is th cold resistande of each bulb? 4) If you power each bulb individulally from a 3V (or whatever) supply, what currents to they each draw? 5) If you have them in series an only one is lit, what happens if you momentarily short out the lit bulb? Can you get the darn thing to have several stable sttes? > > Quite possibly Far East-origin flashlights? Put together from > whatever the local spot market makes available. BTW, the local > Harbor Freight "Chinese Tool Store" is giving away 9 LED flashlights > with spun aluminum housings (3 AAA batteries included), so these > bargain things can't come to much on the wholesale market. We get those in some of the 'pound shops' over here. A good source of white LEDs :-) -tony From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue May 11 17:01:32 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:01:32 -0400 Subject: Time travel (will be: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <201005111540.o4BFePsH022069@billY.EZWIND.NET>, <4BE9A12A.65D9F763@cs.ubc.ca> <20100511114541.F201@shell.lmi.net>, <20100511130655.D201@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: actually there was this old circular device covered in strange symbols, the ancient egyptians used to to travel to other galaxies, and valtrep is actually an alien language they picked up and brought back, yeah that's how old it is... still no definitive proof of when it was produced or used. saying the 70s doesnt mean anything. fortrans peak was probably the 60s and 70s, that proves nothing. many scientific research still uses fortran to this day... what does that mean... nothing. Dan. > Network Solutions, innit? > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.PDPplanet.org/ > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ _________________________________________________________________ Win $10,000 from Hotmail! Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729708 From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 11 17:15:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 15:15:37 -0700 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <4BE91DEA.31877.3603C2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 11, 10 09:05:46 am, Message-ID: <4BE97499.4442.1889F0C@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 May 2010 at 21:52, Tony Duell wrote: > Since they are in series, they are both passing the same current. > Therefore the power disipated is porportional to the resistance. A 40W > bulb will have a higher resistance than a 100W bulb, so, making > reasonable assumptions about the bulbs, the 40W one will be brighter. Yes, I was sort of hinting at a possible solution to the original problem--in fact, the resistance difference becomes much larger as the 40W lamp begins to glow. If you put the series-connected lamps on a variac and slowly inch the voltage up, it's surprising how the positive temperature coefficient of resistance starts kicking in. But most people will, without thinking, say "Oh, a 100W bulb is brighter than a 40W, so the answer is obvious." And wrong. But then we learn more when something doesn't work the way it's "supposed to", than when it does, don't we? That's one issue I have with a lot of secondary-school laboratory courses. You do the experiment, can pretty much guess from the course material what's going to happen and it does. Time for lunch. Back when I was taking a course in numerical methods, I had a teacher who'd assign seemingly easy programs. You had a week to code it up; just about any text would have the method documented. He'd post the data set the day before the assignment was due. Of course, after about the first two assignments, you learned that his data were going to be pathological and destined to break any "out of the book" method. In a previous life, he'd worked for NASA and I suspect, learned things the hard way. That I can remember the course (mumble) years later, is a testament to its effectiveness. --Chuck From chd at chdickman.com Tue May 11 17:22:30 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 18:22:30 -0400 Subject: scsi-ide bridge LUNs Message-ID: <4BE9D8A6.2030101@chdickman.com> I have an ACARD AEC-7720U that I have been using in a VS4000/90 with good results. I am trying to compare different versions of NetBSD. I would like to split a 30GB IDE drive into 4 or so logical units. I don't know much about SCSI really, but I believe that it is possible to divide some drives into individually addressable logical drives, sort of like partitions, but at the hardware level. Can somebody enlighten me on SCSI LUNs, at least as far as they apply to dividing disks? Does SCSI define how to divide a disk, or is that proprietary to the drive? Since in my case the bridge is the "drive" would I need a specific utility from ACARD for this? -chuck From jim at photojim.ca Tue May 11 17:43:18 2010 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:43:18 -0600 Subject: scsi-ide bridge LUNs References: <4BE9D8A6.2030101@chdickman.com> Message-ID: <86E0E643010E43F39716F5265BA32D30@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles H Dickman" To: ; "Discussion at adelaide.photojim.ca:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 4:22 PM Subject: scsi-ide bridge LUNs >I have an ACARD AEC-7720U that I have been using in a VS4000/90 with good >results. I am trying to compare different versions of NetBSD. I would like >to split a 30GB IDE drive into 4 or so logical units. I don't know much >about SCSI really, but I believe that it is possible to divide some drives >into individually addressable logical drives, sort of like partitions, but >at the hardware level. I am no SCSI expert... but the only use to which I've seen SCSI LUNs put is in multi-tape backup units and CD changer units. (I have a 5-disc Nakamichi SCSI CD changer somewhere... it might be 6-disc. No matter.) The LUNs in this case refer to the unique media installed in the device. Jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 11 18:12:39 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:12:39 -0700 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at May 10, 10 02:14:37 pm, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:38:16 +0100 > > > > > > > Hi Chris > > A good way to look for such opens ( usually of feed thrus ) is to use a > > two input scope and combine both inputs with one of them inverted. > > Check the easy ones first=2C like address and data lines. > > How is this better than using a good ohmmeter (with the power off)? > > -tony Hi Tony With an ohmmeter, it is often difficult to know when the contact is good. Many times I've seen problems with bad sockets that looked good on the ohmmeter because I pressed the lead of the IC hard to ensure good contact. With a scope, you can see visually that the contact is good enough and that no additional pressure is needed. I don't need a low ohms contact with the scope lead. A less than optimal contact is usually good enough( especially with a 10X probe ). It is also a little faster, especially when running down address or bus leads. I do use a meter often as well. Once I locate a suspect trace, I use the meter to pin it down. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 11 18:53:47 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:53:47 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org>, , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, , Message-ID: Hi Maybe someone told him it was a preprocessor to FORTAN and he misunderstood it. It could even have been the person he heard it from that misunderstood it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 11 20:29:06 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 02:29:06 +0100 Subject: Time travel (will be: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: <201005111540.o4BFePsH022069@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE9A12A.65D9F763@cs.ubc.ca> <20100511114541.F201@shell.lmi.net> <20100511130655.D201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > actually there was this old circular device covered in strange symbols, > the ancient egyptians used to to travel to other galaxies, > and valtrep is actually an alien language they picked up and brought back, > yeah that's how old it is... > > still no definitive proof of when it was produced or used. saying the 70s doesnt mean anything. > fortrans peak was probably the 60s and 70s, that proves nothing. Well, yes it does. What it means is that a language from the 1970s was *not* the predecessor to a language from the 1950s. But more generally, FORTRAN was the first of its kind. Wikipedia is right on this and adds a fair amount of detail on the primitive forebears, but if you don't believe it, that's fine - Google it, go read textbooks, anything you like, they'll all tell the same story. Any source, it doesn't matter. And the thing is, because FORTRAN was such a huge step forwards, it pretty much killed off everything that went before it. I really doubt that any earlier proto-high-level languages from before FORTRAN were still in use 20 years *after* FORTRAN. Omitting various fancy assembler macros and whatnot, basically, it went FORTRAN -> COBOL -> everything else. > many scientific research still uses fortran to this day... what does that mean... nothing. Some do. Not all that many, and it ain't FORTRAN IV, though. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 11 20:32:03 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 02:32:03 +0100 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 12:53 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > ?Maybe someone told him it was a preprocessor to > FORTAN and he misunderstood it. It could even > have been the person he heard it from that misunderstood > it. > Dwight That sounds highly plausible, actually. Well spotted. Between the completely-forgotten-and-unrecorded forerunner of FORTRAN that fell through a timewarp and appeared 2 decades later, the legendary Sun workstation that sent the first ever email a decade or so after email was invented, and the stealth port of OS/2 from Intel's 1985 80286 chip to DEC's 1970 PDP-11 minicomputer, forgive me if I am now just a tad skeptical. :?D -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 11 20:31:48 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 20:31:48 -0500 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org> <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <201005120132.o4C1WOlR047822@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 06:53 PM 5/11/2010, dwight elvey wrote: > Maybe someone told him it was a preprocessor to >FORTRAN and he misunderstood it. It could even >have been the person he heard it from that misunderstood it. A most excellent possibility. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 11 20:48:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:48:08 -0400 Subject: scsi-ide bridge LUNs In-Reply-To: <4BE9D8A6.2030101@chdickman.com> References: <4BE9D8A6.2030101@chdickman.com> Message-ID: <4BEA08D8.8040505@neurotica.com> On 5/11/10 6:22 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > I have an ACARD AEC-7720U that I have been using in a VS4000/90 with > good results. I am trying to compare different versions of NetBSD. I > would like to split a 30GB IDE drive into 4 or so logical units. I don't > know much about SCSI really, but I believe that it is possible to divide > some drives into individually addressable logical drives, sort of like > partitions, but at the hardware level. > > Can somebody enlighten me on SCSI LUNs, at least as far as they apply to > dividing disks? Does SCSI define how to divide a disk, or is that > proprietary to the drive? Since in my case the bridge is the "drive" > would I need a specific utility from ACARD for this? SCSI (at least common implementations of it) doesn't do this. LUNs are for things like volumes in RAID arrays and such. Picture a large RAID system (using any type of disks) interfaced to a host system via SCSI. These typically have multiple "volumes" or logical disks, that show up on the same SCSI ID but are accessed using different LUNs. You're going to get the partitioning functionality you're looking for using just a bare SCSI interface. What you need is a SCSI RAID controller (whether you're using its redundancy and fault-tolerance capabilities or not) to carve up one physical volume into multiple logical volumes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 11 20:06:42 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:06:42 -0400 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201005112106.42718.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 11 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > On 05/10/2010 11:43 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > So I ask again. What clock signal is this 2GHz refering to? > > > > The x86 processors from Intel and AMD contain an internal PLL which > > multiplies the external clock to produce an internal clock for the > > processor pipeline. Most of the CPU core is running on that core > > Sure... > > > clock. (In the case of the Pentium 4 and derived processors, some > > of it actually operates at twice the core clock.) Instructions > > take a > > How do I know this 'core clock' actually exists? The more I hear > about it, the more I think the whole thing is somewhat bogus! Pull the cap off the chip, and you should be able to find it by probing the chip under a microscope. How do I know what's inside a 7400 NAND? Maybe it's a bunch of hobbits pushing cranks! C'mon, Tony, you aren't this dense. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 11 21:18:59 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 20:18:59 -0600 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <201005112106.42718.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201005112106.42718.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4BEA1013.9010600@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > How do I know what's inside a 7400 NAND? Maybe it's a bunch of hobbits > pushing cranks! I broke one open once ... Not a hobbit in sight -- No magic smoke ether. > C'mon, Tony, you aren't this dense. > > Pat From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue May 11 22:02:21 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 23:02:21 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, , , , Message-ID: you know, you trolls have to find better ways to take things out of context, this is pretty lame. I never said it was an os/2 port. All I said was: "Hey, i've got a TK50 in a PDP11 that happens to have OS/2 on it, this is very strange... I wonder what this is?" and about the sun workstation, the guy that wrote the first email protocol did it on that station, or at least finished it there. You can ask him yourself, but he doesn't respond to twits. and i have said since the beginning i was willing to be proven wrong. but instead of constructive criticism or converse, or even any proof at all to speak of, what do we have, mindless personal attacks, insults and non-constructive comments. I like the other explanation of valtrep better, it fits better. that was that it was fortran specially repurposed for the system it was on. but, that's barring any real hard evidence either way which no one has yet produced. yes, excerpts from ieee journal or whatever, no company history, no language epidemiology. no, just more internet trolls. Somehow I thought this list was better than that, oops, wrong again... Dan. > Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 02:32:03 +0100 > Subject: Re: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > From: lproven at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 12:53 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > Hi > > Maybe someone told him it was a preprocessor to > > FORTAN and he misunderstood it. It could even > > have been the person he heard it from that misunderstood > > it. > > Dwight > > That sounds highly plausible, actually. Well spotted. > > Between the completely-forgotten-and-unrecorded forerunner of FORTRAN > that fell through a timewarp and appeared 2 decades later, the > legendary Sun workstation that sent the first ever email a decade or > so after email was invented, and the stealth port of OS/2 from Intel's > 1985 80286 chip to DEC's 1970 PDP-11 minicomputer, forgive me if I am > now just a tad skeptical. :?D > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 > AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 _________________________________________________________________ Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 From Hollandia at ccountry.net Tue May 11 22:07:50 2010 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 20:07:50 -0700 Subject: Commodore C2N tape drive belt replacement? Message-ID: <201005120307.o4C37nQ2012035@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Mr. Dicks, Failing a replacement BELT, here is something else that you might try. I have no idea how well it would work. Ordinary automotive oil seals have within them a garter spring, that goes around the lip of the seal and provides some pressure on the sealing surface. These springs are easy to find: they are on the outside of the lip (usually) hidden behind a small flap of rubber. Push this flap toward the radial center of the seal and you can see the spring. It is simple to extract with a fingernail. If you need to thread the spring through something to get it on the pulleys, the spring has a conical end that threads into a square-cut end. Naturally the spring has elasticity; I don't know if this will defeat its purpose or not. If a belt cannot be obtained, you might try this. Kurt >Hi, All, > >I've been fiddling with PETs lately and have found to my dismay that >my original c. 1978 C2N just doesn't push the tape along as fast as it should. >I opened it up, cleaned some minor funk out of the innards, but the old drive >belt is just a little sloppy and has a kink on it where it sat around the motor >pulley for a number of years between uses. The symptom is that FF and REW >speeds are not uniform, there's no real "grab" when pulling on the belt or >manually spinning different pulleys, and there is visible slackness in the >belt. Loads are spotty, and they mostly fail. The "secret" trick of >holding down >the ">" key when the tape is moving does show that the CPU sees flux >transitions, but it fails to recognize what's on the tape(s) as valid data most >of the time. I know the tapes are good, and a slipping belt explains all the >observed symptoms. > >It's an easy enough part to replace, but does anyone know where to >get a proper replacement from? It's a continuous rubber belt, with a >square cross-section just under 1mm on a side, probably about 250mm- >300mm long, give or take a bit (I didn't measure it). It looks entirely >ordinary in the context of 1970s cassette transports. > >Thanks, > > From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue May 11 22:13:05 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 23:13:05 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <201005120132.o4C1WOlR047822@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org>, , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, , , , <201005120132.o4C1WOlR047822@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: it is possible that someone at the university was wrong about that and communicated that incorrect information to me. I'm big enough to admit that. the other theory fits with this as well... that someone purpose-built valtrep based on fortran for these specific machines. that's the trouble with language etymology sometimes, is the language (natural or otherwise) the predecessor (mother/root language) or is it a more modern [sic] purpose-built or customized to a specific region or culture... linguists have trouble with this sort of thing on a daily basis, and yet a percentage of people on the list expect me to get it right the first time, right out of the gate. and they don't do it in a very nice way the difference is, I'm not pretending to be smarter than everyone else, or know more than everyone else, or shove my knowledge in peoples faces. and I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, and move on. you learn more from your mistakes than your successes. ps: I mistakenly used the word "epidemiology" in my previous message instead of "etymology", my bad. > Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 20:31:48 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: jfoust at threedee.com > Subject: RE: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > > At 06:53 PM 5/11/2010, dwight elvey wrote: > > Maybe someone told him it was a preprocessor to > >FORTRAN and he misunderstood it. It could even > >have been the person he heard it from that misunderstood it. > > A most excellent possibility. > > - John > _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes to be won with Hotmail. Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729709 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 11 23:09:52 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 21:09:52 -0700 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN References: <201005111540.o4BFePsH022069@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BE9A12A.65D9F763@cs.ubc.ca> <20100511114541.F201@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BEA2A11.2A1BD538@cs.ubc.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html > > On Tue, 11 May 2010, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > According to that history, non-sequential time influences are common in the > > history of programming languages. > > > Valtrep fits right in, we need another entry: > > ca. 1970 - Valtrep influences the creation of FORTRAN (see 1957). > > 1954? Yes, I noticed too; however, the above-mentioned history uses the 1957 release date, so I went with it for internal consistency. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue May 11 23:37:33 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 06:37:33 +0200 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... Message-ID: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : - you do not have a single AT powersupply in the house, just 20 ATX PS - do not have a single PC compatible keyboard, but 10 AT & 10 PS2 keyboards - at least 50% of your MFM drives have passed away in their sleep. - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a standard 5150 Time to grow up I guess. Jos From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 11 23:49:01 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 00:49:01 -0400 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <52095749E051431EB77F0FB96F19C9E3@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jos Dreesen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 12:37 AM Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... > when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : > > - you do not have a single AT powersupply in the house, just 20 ATX PS > - do not have a single PC compatible keyboard, but 10 AT & 10 PS2 > keyboards > - at least 50% of your MFM drives have passed away in their sleep. > - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a standard > 5150 > > Time to grow up I guess. > > Jos Its funny that I have a basement full of old PC equipment yet only have a couple MFM drives (SCSI is my drive of choice for old machines). How do you have MFM drives and nothing else of that vintage around? From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 12 00:03:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 22:03:17 -0700 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4BE9D425.16268.2FDDBE0@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2010 at 6:37, Jos Dreesen wrote: > when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : > > - you do not have a single AT powersupply in the house, just 20 ATX PS > - do not have a single PC compatible keyboard, but 10 AT & 10 PS2 > keyboards - at least 50% of your MFM drives have passed away in their > sleep. - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on > a standard 5150 Aside from the -5 line (which can be gotten with a 7905 voltage regulator off the -12 (and may not be needed for anything but the original 16-64K 5150), most ATX supplies can be pressed into service for AT use, mostly by changing the connector and manually toggling the "power on" lines. The guts of an ATX should easily fit into an AT style PSU enclosure. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 12 00:10:14 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 22:10:14 -0700 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: Grow up? NEVER! Too bad you're on the other side of the pond from me: I have a bunch of those old AT supplies that I'm resisting sending to recycling. I'm just done with PC stuff, but I hate to just dump this stuff because, well, there's always someone like you who needs it to feed his jones.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jos Dreesen [jdr_use at bluewin.ch] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 9:37 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : - you do not have a single AT powersupply in the house, just 20 ATX PS - do not have a single PC compatible keyboard, but 10 AT & 10 PS2 keyboards - at least 50% of your MFM drives have passed away in their sleep. - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a standard 5150 Time to grow up I guess. Jos From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed May 12 00:17:47 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 06:17:47 +0100 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4BEA39FB.5020203@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 12/05/2010 05:37, Jos Dreesen wrote: > when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : > - do not have a single PC compatible keyboard, but 10 AT & 10 PS2 keyboards Are none of the AT ones switchable ? > - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a > standard 5150 Depending on what you mean by 'standard' then everything up to PC-DOS 7/PC-DOS 2000, or MS-DOS 6.x. Both of those need 640K I think, acording to the box anyways.... Cheers. Phill. From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 11 06:13:27 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 04:13:27 -0700 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> The 13,105 item was purchased by wyostartrek ( 346 ) no feedback left by seller for buyer. Feedback left on 2/14/10 41,300 bid had no feedback links to use for finding the buyer. for what it's worth, this is over a recalled game, the higher price for the one which is "factory sealed" On 5/11/2010 3:05 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > "Andrew Burton" writes: > > >> Can you supply a link to the rare Nintendo cartridge, or more info so >> I can such for it? >> > That'd be one of the two copies of "Stadium Events" that have been > discovered recently. After the first one went for $13,105: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370330327400 > > another collector checked his stack of old games, and found a sealed > copy that ended up selling for $41,300: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140384097750 > > From bqt at softjar.se Tue May 11 09:01:43 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:01:43 +0200 Subject: VSV21-AA (M7656) Qbus graphics card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE96347.6070500@softjar.se> Richard wrote: > Can anyone tell me about this product? I found it in the module list > described as follows: > > M7656 VSV21-AA Q Colour graphics module: M68K processor, HD63486 > M7656 video processor (512x512 or 512x256 resolution), > M7656 Serial ports for mouse, trackball, console and > M7656 LK201. > > I'm interested in knowing what software products support this. For > instance, if I put this card in a Qbus VAXserver 4000/300, will it > enable me to run DECwindows locally? No, since there is no X server written that can use the VSV21. There is a device driver, and a library with various functions available for both VMS and RSX. The graphic card can actually run in a couple of other resolutions as well. I have mine set at 640x480. Johnny From steerex at ccvn.com Tue May 11 11:21:04 2010 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:21:04 -0400 Subject: HP3000 Series 37 Front Panel Key References: <013701caef02$62da30c0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "AndrewBurton" at May 8, 10 03:12:25 pm <282197.12441.qm@web35302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001d01caf125$f5d213f0$0301a8c0@win2k> Lee, I've got a micro 37 and the key is like nothing I've ever seen before. It's a flat bar about 3/16" of an inch wide and 7/16" long. There are a series of holes drilled in the sides of the key of varying depth. If that's the same one you computer needs, I've got no idea where you'de find one :-( If however, anyone wants to make an offer on a complete working 3000 micro 37, let me know. It'll probably go on ebay in the next few weeks. See yas, SteveRob steerex[at]ccvn[dot]com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Courtney (ACM)" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 10, 2010 6:00 PM Subject: HP3000 Series 37 Front Panel Key > I posted a note on the MPE Newsgroup, but its pretty dead these days. Anyone here have an idea where I might a) find a front panel key for an HP3000 Series 37 or b) what key I could ask a locksmith for? TIA! > > Lee Courtney From chrise at pobox.com Tue May 11 11:47:07 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:47:07 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <20100508112234.GC23471@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100511164707.GQ12136@n0jcf.net> On Monday (05/10/2010 at 07:36PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Thank you Carl. I did receive a .BIN file of the monitor a while ago > > and just recently got it burned into an 8755A. Unfortunately, this has > > not fixed the problem-- or, rather, introduced a new problem as the > > little machine still does not run at all (frozen or not) with the new > > EPROM resident monitor. > > > > So, there is something a little more sinister going on here. Still > > investigating... > > Assuming you've not made a mistake programming the 8755, and that the > 8755 is not defective, have you checked the state of pin 5? It's N/C on > the 8355, and Vpp on the 8755. There's a link on the SDK-85 board > associated with this pin. You might check that. Yes. Thanks. I've set the jumper according to the manual's instructions for an 8755A at location A14. The setup sure appears correct. > If you put the original monitor ROM in its socket and put the 8755 in the > ROM extension socket, can you read out the nrwly-programmed EPROM at the > extension ROM location? That's on the ToDo list. Unfortunately the ROM extension location at A15 has no socket installed and all the holes are flowed over with solder. So I need to carefully solder-suck, solder-wick those clean before I can install a socket. Boards of this age are quite fond of letting the pads loose when you heat them up so I need to do this slowly and carefully. And thanks to the other poster that offered a manual. I have all of that so I am set documentation-wise. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Tue May 11 11:51:06 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 11:51:06 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <20100510151746.GT12136@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100511165106.GR12136@n0jcf.net> On Monday (05/10/2010 at 02:14PM -0700), dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi Chris > A good way to look for such opens ( usually of feed thrus ) is to use a > two input scope and combine both inputs with one of them inverted. > Check the easy ones first, like address and data lines. > Even a non-active line will show a difference in voltage when probed > this way. I've used this on a couple of trouble cases with good > results. Good tip Dwight. Thanks. -- Chris Elmquist From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 11 12:54:22 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 10:54:22 -0700 Subject: Commodore C2N tape drive belt replacement? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BE999CE.4000802@jwsss.com> These are the original ones from forever ago that I know of: 14.13 Where can I get new pinch rollers or drive belts? Projector-Recorder Belt Company Whitewater WI USA 800-558-9572 On 5/11/2010 7:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I've been fiddling with PETs lately and have found to my dismay that > my original c. 1978 C2N just doesn't push the tape along as fast as it should. > I opened it up, cleaned some minor funk out of the innards, but the old drive > belt is just a little sloppy and has a kink on it where it sat around the motor > pulley for a number of years between uses. The symptom is that FF and REW > speeds are not uniform, there's no real "grab" when pulling on the belt or > manually spinning different pulleys, and there is visible slackness in the > belt. Loads are spotty, and they mostly fail. The "secret" trick of > holding down > the ">" key when the tape is moving does show that the CPU sees flux > transitions, but it fails to recognize what's on the tape(s) as valid data most > of the time. I know the tapes are good, and a slipping belt explains all the > observed symptoms. > > It's an easy enough part to replace, but does anyone know where to > get a proper replacement from? It's a continuous rubber belt, with a > square cross-section just under 1mm on a side, probably about 250mm- > 300mm long, give or take a bit (I didn't measure it). It looks entirely > ordinary in the context of 1970s cassette transports. > > Thanks, > > > From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 11 14:45:33 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 12:45:33 -0700 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: <666334.50179.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com><4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net><4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com><011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com><4BE96A4C.5090808@comcast.net> <20100511160638.44902kw8byl5bwkk@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <1C1DF379AF89438F8625AC4176677F69@dell8300> <666334.50179.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BE9B3DD.8070808@jwsss.com> On 5/11/2010 11:42 AM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > The one thing that's really put me off of buying anything on eBay (unless it's something I REALLY want) are the shipping and handling charges. They are automatically calculated these days by eBay, and they always seem ridiculously high. > > > The fees that are calculated are based on the volume discount the seller has. Tiny sellers like me don't count, and I get the same as taking the thing to a UPS store and paying thru the nose. The "volume" crap sellers get discounts that drop the fees for them. I always disable that crap, and state in the body of the sale that costs are actual, not what ebay will give me. Jim From d.house at computer.org Tue May 11 15:25:18 2010 From: d.house at computer.org (dh) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:25:18 -0400 Subject: IBM System 360 Model 91 operator console from 1969 Message-ID: <001401caf148$139c7340$3ad559c0$@house@computer.org> I will be moving and may need to place it in a new home. It is huge: 6x4x2 feet with over 2100 lights. Currently in Raleigh, NC, USA. Serious inquiries only please. Kind Regards, Daniel From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue May 11 15:31:09 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 11 May 2010 16:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore C2N tape drive belt replacement? In-Reply-To: <4BE999CE.4000802@jwsss.com> References: <4BE999CE.4000802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 May 2010, jim s wrote: > These are the original ones from forever ago that I know of: > > 14.13 Where can I get new pinch rollers or drive belts? > > Projector-Recorder Belt Company > Whitewater WI USA > 800-558-9572 Oh, that it would be so... The original PRB is long gone. Someone in New York bought a lot of their tooling and old stock. http://www.russellind.com Annoyingly, they take orders only by phone but are very reliable. Steve -- From tingox at gmail.com Tue May 11 17:32:55 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 00:32:55 +0200 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org> <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > well that's definitely not true. > the structure, functions, reserved words, etc are all almost identical. > So someone used a general programming language (or its syntax) as a way to make a data collecting and transformation package customizable. Big deal. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 12 02:38:26 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 00:38:26 -0700 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com> On 05/11/2010 09:37 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : [...] > - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a > standard 5150 As far as I know, all releases of IBM PC DOS/IBM DOS through 6.x and MS-DOS through 6.x work on a 5150. I'm not sure about IBM PC DOS 7, IBM PC DOS 2000, or MS-DOS 7.x. Obviously some features of the later versions of DOS aren't going to work on the 5150, e.g., EMM386. Eric From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed May 12 03:13:02 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 09:13:02 +0100 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BEA630E.3040403@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 12/05/2010 08:38, Eric Smith wrote: > On 05/11/2010 09:37 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : > [...] >> - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a >> standard 5150 > As far as I know, all releases of IBM PC DOS/IBM DOS through 6.x and > MS-DOS through 6.x work on a 5150. I'm not sure about IBM PC DOS 7, IBM > PC DOS 2000, or MS-DOS 7.x. > > Obviously some features of the later versions of DOS aren't going to > work on the 5150, e.g., EMM386. Well yes, but that's kinda like saying that (for example) fdisk won't work without a hard disk....because the hardware is not there to use it :) :) Phill. From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 12 07:43:22 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:43:22 +0100 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net> <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 4:02 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > you know, you trolls have to find better ways to take things out of context, this is pretty lame. > > I never said it was an os/2 port. All I said was: > ?"Hey, i've got a TK50 in a PDP11 that happens to have OS/2 on it, this is very strange... I wonder what this is?" > > and about the sun workstation, the guy that wrote the first email protocol did it on that station, > or at least finished it there. You can ask him yourself, but he doesn't respond to twits. > > and i have said since the beginning i was willing to be proven wrong. > but instead of constructive criticism or converse, or even any proof at all to speak of, > what do we have, mindless personal attacks, insults and non-constructive comments. > > I like the other explanation of valtrep better, it fits better. > that was that it was fortran specially repurposed for the system it was on. > > but, that's barring any real hard evidence either way which no one has yet produced. > yes, excerpts from ieee journal or whatever, no company history, > no language epidemiology. > > no, just more internet trolls. Somehow I thought this list was better than that, oops, wrong again... No, Dan, we're not trolls and we're not trolling. That's not what the word means in this context. A troll is someone who pops up in a public forum and says provocative things, such as claims that are outrageous, offensive or blatantly false, in the hope of provoking people into intemperate reactions - such as swearing, foul language, or long pointless threads trying to explain why something is wrong. If someone disagrees with you, that does not make them a troll. But if you pop up and claim things that are fairly manifestly not true, then that may well make *you* a troll. When you're discussing things with a group of experts, and they all say you're wrong, the reasonable response is not to get agitated and start being insistent or calling them names, it is to consider that perhaps *you* are wrong. Perhaps someone in good faith told you something wrong, or perhaps you misunderstood a word - say "preprocessor" for "predecessor", or "etymology" for "epidemiology" to use your own example. For instance, your "first machine on the internet" and "machine email was created on". Email was a feature of some of the fairly early multi-user computer systems of the beginning of the 1960s. It was widespread by the days of minis such as the DEC VAX by the 1970s. SUN (initialism for Stanford Universal Network) was founded in 1982 and its workstations became common in the early- to mid-1980s. Therefore it is simply not possible that the first email, or email client or email message or email protocol, was designed on a SUN workstation, because email was around *twenty years* before SUN workstations existed. If someone personally told you this, either you did not understand or he lied to you. What you are claiming is simply not possible. You also claimed it was the first machine on the Internet, which dates from the mid-1970s, again, nearly a decade before SUN was founded. It is just not possible. In fact SUN was set up to build Internet-compatible Unix workstations, pretty much; SUN is a /result/ of the Internet, not the other way round. Next, your forgotten "ancestor of Fortran" from the '70s. FORTRAN dates from the early 1950s, so again, no 1970s language from 20Y later was any kind of ancestor of it. If someone told you anything different, either they were wrong, they were lying, you misunderstood or you remember what you were told incorrectly. Then there's your PDP-11 port of OS/2. The PDP-11 was a 1970s computer. By the 1980s it was being replaced by VAXen. OS/2 1.0 was released in 1987, long after the PDP-11's time; OS/2 was designed in 1985 for Intel's 1982 80286 chip. DEC's TK50 cartridges were an ancestor of what became the Digital Linear Tape standard which is still around today. It is now used on many PC-based servers and has been used on many non-PDP systems over the years, including VAXes, which were sometimes used as fileservers on PC networks using DEC's implementation of LAN Manager for VMS: PathWorks. I administered such systems in the 1990s, and it was a bloody awful dog-slow server, but the bundle of stuff with it was useful and companies with a DEC VAX backbone and PC clients found it useful. However, in those days, DLT type drives were rarely found on PCs. This really started in the mid to late 1990s when OS/2 was really a fading memory. It's possible that someone might have put OS/2 files on a Pathworks server that got backed up onto DLT cartridges - but that would just be a volume of a VAX backup set, and so unlikely to be labelled with the specific contents. The thing is, your claims are, to be charitable and polite, just ridiculous. Sorry, dude, I'm not trying to be mean or nasty here, but the reason that people are making fun of your claims is that they do not even remotely stack up, and you're making them in a place which is specifically filled with people with loads of specialist knowledge about the subjects you're making claims about. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 12 07:49:01 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:49:01 +0100 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 6:10 AM, Ian King wrote: > Grow up? ?NEVER! > > Too bad you're on the other side of the pond from me: I have a bunch of those old AT supplies that I'm resisting sending to recycling. ?I'm just done with PC stuff, but I hate to just dump this stuff because, well, there's always someone like you who needs it to feed his jones.... ?-- Ian Same here. Just got offered half a dozen on Freecycle last month, too. :?( Jos: for my money, MS-DOS 3.3 was the classic version for the original PC. With <=640K of RAM, no full-function version of DOS offers as much functionality in as little conventional RAM. All the later versions are bigger but normally hide bits of themselves in the HMA or UMBs to maximise free base memory, which is no help if you only have base memory and nothing else. DR-DOS 3.4 might be worth a look if you can find it, but it's obscure. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 12 08:59:24 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 08:59:24 -0500 Subject: Commodore C2N tape drive belt replacement? In-Reply-To: <4BE999CE.4000802@jwsss.com> References: <4BE999CE.4000802@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <201005121402.o4CE2PCc077150@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:54 PM 5/11/2010, jim s wrote: >These are the original ones from forever ago that I know of: > >14.13 Where can I get new pinch rollers or drive belts? > >Projector-Recorder Belt Company >Whitewater WI USA >800-558-9572 It looks like the PRB line was bought-out by another company more than a decade ago: http://www.russellind.com/prbline/index.html I was curious about this because I'm only a few minutes from Whitewater, and the area of the old PRB address looks mostly like this: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=W9390+STATE+RD+59,++WHITEWATER+WI+53190&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=State+Road+59,+Whitewater,+Rock,+Wisconsin+53190&gl=us&ei=u6TqS5CYFYT68Ab6-fnpDg&ved=0CBYQ8gEwAA&ll=42.818825,-88.75185&spn=0.085496,0.121365&z=13&layer=c&cbll=42.818749,-88.751897&panoid=hYu-FHAbcGUlfpRMYzCtYA&cbp=12,220.88,,0,12.64 - John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 12 10:13:26 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 08:13:26 -0700 Subject: assorted historical claims / was Re: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran References: , , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, , , , Message-ID: <4BEAC596.B689C090@cs.ubc.ca> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > you know, you trolls have to find better ways to take things out of context, this is pretty lame. > > I never said it was an os/2 port. All I said was: > "Hey, i've got a TK50 in a PDP11 that happens to have OS/2 on it, this is very strange... I wonder what this is?" Following is the original message. Note especially "or just run it and have the most unique PDP on the planet". ============= Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 From: Dan Gahlinger dgahling at hotmail.com Date: Tue Jan 1 03:02:54 CST 2008 Yes, you read that correctly. I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which contains none other than OS/2 operating system. Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. One other person who's checked the directory listing has said it is authentic. I'm not sure what to do with it, and I believe IBM made OS/2 open source, so technically it should be "free" of it's chains maybe someone can turn it into something useful, or just run it and have the most unique PDP on the planet, I don't know... whatever :) anyhow, it's a really weird bit of computing history, and I'd hate for it to be lost. it should be in a museum :) Dan. ============= > and about the sun workstation, the guy that wrote the first email protocol did it on that station, > or at least finished it there. You can ask him yourself, but he doesn't respond to twits. > > and i have said since the beginning i was willing to be proven wrong. When you make a claim about some historical event, esp. a claim which counters long-established historical accounts, it is not the obligation of the rest of the world to prove you wrong, it is your obligation to support your claim with something more than 'I say so'. > but instead of constructive criticism or converse, or even any proof at all to speak of, > what do we have, mindless personal attacks, insults and non-constructive comments. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 12 11:43:38 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 17:43:38 +0100 Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> <4BE9724E.6000103@att.net> Message-ID: <001c01caf1f2$6c17d000$6f575f0a@user8459cef6fa> I'm a little late, so someone may have answered this already. A "recalled game" is the same as "recalled cars" (or any other item). It was defective in some way, for example the beta bug-ridden Metropolis Street Racer game was accidentally(!) released on the Dreamcast. Once Sega (the publisher) and the developer (can't recall who) found out they recalled the game and the official (bug-free) version was released. In my wisdom, I kept the bug-ridden version! The bugs I remember: - In 50Hz mode, the sky texture was wrong... they used a building texture instead!! - When racing, the opponents cars would occasionally randomly dissappear and never return (making for an easy win!). - The custom music editor/player didn't always function as expected. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve shumaker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 4:05 PM Subject: Re: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay > with very little knowledge of the game systems, what do you mean by > "recalled game"? > > curious... > > steve shumaker > > jim s wrote: > > The 13,105 item was purchased by wyostartrek ( 346 ) no feedback left > > by seller for buyer. Feedback left on 2/14/10 > > 41,300 bid had no feedback links to use for finding the buyer. > > > > for what it's worth, this is over a recalled game, the higher price > > for the one which is "factory sealed" > > > > > > > > On 5/11/2010 3:05 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > >> "Andrew Burton" writes: > >> > >>> Can you supply a link to the rare Nintendo cartridge, or more info so > >>> I can such for it? > >> That'd be one of the two copies of "Stadium Events" that have been > >> discovered recently. After the first one went for $13,105: > >> > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370330327400 > >> > >> another collector checked his stack of old games, and found a sealed > >> copy that ended up selling for $41,300: > >> > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140384097750 > >> > > From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed May 12 13:03:16 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 11:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay In-Reply-To: <001c01caf1f2$6c17d000$6f575f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net> <4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca> <4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com> <011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BE93BD7.80403@jwsss.com> <4BE9724E.6000103@att.net> <001c01caf1f2$6c17d000$6f575f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <499141.32512.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >From the wikipedia article, it sounds as though the game was recalled so that Nintendo could rebrand the game since they bought the rights to it from Bandai. I was unaware of this, but the Power Pad attachment (and this game) originated from Bandai and Nintendo subsequently purchased it. ________________________________ From: Andrew Burton To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 11:43:38 AM Subject: Re: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay I'm a little late, so someone may have answered this already. A "recalled game" is the same as "recalled cars" (or any other item). It was defective in some way, for example the beta bug-ridden Metropolis Street Racer game was accidentally(!) released on the Dreamcast. Once Sega (the publisher) and the developer (can't recall who) found out they recalled the game and the official (bug-free) version was released. In my wisdom, I kept the bug-ridden version! The bugs I remember: - In 50Hz mode, the sky texture was wrong... they used a building texture instead!! - When racing, the opponents cars would occasionally randomly dissappear and never return (making for an easy win!). - The custom music editor/player didn't always function as expected. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve shumaker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 4:05 PM Subject: Re: Nintendo game cartridge on Ebay > with very little knowledge of the game systems, what do you mean by > "recalled game"? > > curious... > > steve shumaker > > jim s wrote: > > The 13,105 item was purchased by wyostartrek ( 346 ) no feedback left > > by seller for buyer. Feedback left on 2/14/10 > > 41,300 bid had no feedback links to use for finding the buyer. > > > > for what it's worth, this is over a recalled game, the higher price > > for the one which is "factory sealed" > > > > > > > > On 5/11/2010 3:05 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > >> "Andrew Burton" writes: > >> > >>> Can you supply a link to the rare Nintendo cartridge, or more info so > >>> I can such for it? > >> That'd be one of the two copies of "Stadium Events" that have been > >> discovered recently. After the first one went for $13,105: > >> > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370330327400 > >> > >> another collector checked his stack of old games, and found a sealed > >> copy that ended up selling for $41,300: > >> > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140384097750 > >> > > From RichA at vulcan.com Wed May 12 13:20:02 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 11:20:02 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4BE48F42.5050703@bitsavers.org>, , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, , , , <201005120132.o4C1WOlR047822@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: From: Dan Gahlinger Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 8:13 PM Oh, I just know I'm going to regret this. > that's the trouble with language etymology sometimes, > is the language (natural or otherwise) the predecessor (mother/root > language) or is it a more modern [sic] purpose-built or customized to > a specific region or culture... > linguists have trouble with this sort of thing on a daily basis, [snip] No. We don't. I'm saying this as someone with degrees in historical linguistics, more particularly specializing in the Indo-European family of languages but with work in Kartvelian, Algonquian, Siouan, Finno-Ugric and Semitic as well. Rich From RichA at vulcan.com Wed May 12 13:58:08 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 11:58:08 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: , , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, , , , Message-ID: From: Dan Gahlinger Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 8:02 PM > you know, you trolls have to find better ways to take things out of > context, this is pretty lame. PCKBF at 11. > and about the sun workstation, the guy that wrote the first email > protocol did it on that station, or at least finished it there. You > can ask him yourself, but he doesn't respond to twits. More time travel. The first e-mail protocol was a specialization of FTP, adopted while the entirety of the file transfer protocol was in development (see, for example, RFC 463, February 1973, bottom of page 2). The SUN workstation was not created until the early 1980s, conceived as a 3M (1 million bytes of memory, 1 million instructions per second, 1 million pixels on the screen) device by Ralph Gorin of Stanford University. (Remember that "SUN" originated as "Stanford University Network". Andy Bechtolsheim worked for Ralph when he built the first SUN workstation.) The earliest write-up I have in my collection is dated 1981. Rich From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 12 12:43:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 18:43:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP3000 Series 37 Front Panel Key In-Reply-To: <001d01caf125$f5d213f0$0301a8c0@win2k> from "Steve Robertson" at May 11, 10 12:21:04 pm Message-ID: > > Lee, > > I've got a micro 37 and the key is like nothing I've ever seen before. It's > a flat bar about 3/16" of an inch wide and 7/16" long. There are a series of > holes drilled in the sides of the key of varying depth. If that's the same > one you computer needs, I've got no idea where you'de find one :-( If I am understanding the description correctly, this sounds like a smaller version of the keys used on some VAG (Volkswagen, etc) cars. As you imply, it's the hole depth that varies from key to key. If you van get the lock off the machine, it's often possible to carefully dismanrle it and make measurements so as to be able to make a key Unfortunately, locksmiths tend to be a secretive bunch (they claim it's for 'security', but I suspect the number of crimes committed by dismantling a lock and uynderstanding how it works is vanishingly small) so you probably won't get much help from talking to one. > > If however, anyone wants to make an offer on a complete working 3000 micro > 37, let me know. It'll probably go on ebay in the next few weeks. No, I am not interested, but I have to ask the obviosu question : Where is it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 12 12:59:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 18:59:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: <4BE97499.4442.1889F0C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 11, 10 03:15:37 pm Message-ID: > > On 11 May 2010 at 21:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Since they are in series, they are both passing the same current. > > Therefore the power disipated is porportional to the resistance. A 40W > > bulb will have a higher resistance than a 100W bulb, so, making > > reasonable assumptions about the bulbs, the 40W one will be brighter. > > Yes, I was sort of hinting at a possible solution to the original Sure. i never actually saw the original post... It would be interesting to measure the votlages across the various bulbs in the OP's circuit. > problem--in fact, the resistance difference becomes much larger as > the 40W lamp begins to glow. If you put the series-connected lamps > on a variac and slowly inch the voltage up, it's surprising how the > positive temperature coefficient of resistance starts kicking in. That is something I am going to have to try (having never done it). > > But most people will, without thinking, say "Oh, a 100W bulb is > brighter than a 40W, so the answer is obvious." And wrong. These are the same people that think you _have_ to draw 13A from a 13A mains socket, i guess ;-) [A buyl disipating 100W is likely to be righter than one disipating 40W. But in this circuit, the buls are not disipating their rated powers] > But then we learn more when something doesn't work the way it's > "supposed to", than when it does, don't we? That's one issue I have Of course. I can't rememebr who said it, but there's a quote something like "The words that come before the greatest progresses in science are not "Eureka" but "Hey, that's curious"' > with a lot of secondary-school laboratory courses. You do the > experiment, can pretty much guess from the course material what's > going to happen and it does. Time for lunch. One thing that I learnt very early on (from my parents, not at school, I hasten to add) is that if something does not do wht you expect, you stop and investigate. Most of the time it will be because you've done something silly. Just occasionally it's because there's something interesting going on. > > Back when I was taking a course in numerical methods, I had a teacher > who'd assign seemingly easy programs. You had a week to code it up; > just about any text would have the method documented. He'd post the > data set the day before the assignment was due. > > Of course, after about the first two assignments, you learned that > his data were going to be pathological and destined to break any "out > of the book" method. In a previous life, he'd worked for NASA and I > suspect, learned things the hard way. That's the sort of teacher I would like... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 12 12:47:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 18:47:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100511164707.GQ12136@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at May 11, 10 11:47:07 am Message-ID: > That's on the ToDo list. Unfortunately the ROM extension location at A15 > has no socket installed and all the holes are flowed over with solder. So The PCB was probably wave-soldered with no socket in place. Seems strange, on an experimental machine like this not to fit the expansion socckets, but anyway... > I need to carefully solder-suck, solder-wick those clean before I can > install a socket. Boards of this age are quite fond of letting the pads > loose when you heat them up so I need to do this slowly and carefully. The best way I've found to do this is to hold or clamp the board vertically, melt th solder with an iron on one side and suck with a solder sucker from the other. It's not too bad doing it for a 40 pin socket, it gets boring fast when you have to clear out 16 or 32 16 pin locations for a memory upgrade (been there, done that, don't wear t-shirts ;-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 12 13:02:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 19:02:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 11, 10 04:12:39 pm Message-ID: > Many times I've seen problems with bad sockets that looked good on the > ohmmeter because I pressed the lead of the IC hard to ensure good contact. > With a scope=2C you can see visually that the contact is good enough and th= > at no > additional pressure is needed. I don't need a low ohms contact with the > scope lead. A less than optimal contact is usually good enough( especially = > with > a 10X probe ). OK, got you. It's almost doing a 4-terminal mesuremtn where the current is supplied by the device under test, and the 'scope is the votlage detector. As you said, assuming a reasonable input impedance on the 'scope, a poor contact at the probe tip won't matter much. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 12 13:32:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 19:32:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at May 12, 10 06:37:33 am Message-ID: > > when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : > > - you do not have a single AT powersupply in the house, just 20 ATX PS Actually, I thought there was a minor difference between the PC and AT PSUs... > - do not have a single PC compatible keyboard, but 10 AT & 10 PS2 keyboards I have the oposite problem. My IBM Type M is playing up (needs taking apart and the heat-stakes replaced by screws...) and I don't have another AT or PS/2 keyboard in the house. Got a few XT ones, plenty of HP-HIL ones, LK201s, etc... > - at least 50% of your MFM drives have passed away in their sleep. > - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a standard 5150 at least I know where my 5150 techref is... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 12 13:06:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 19:06:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <201005112106.42718.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 11, 10 09:06:42 pm Message-ID: > How do I know what's inside a 7400 NAND? Maybe it's a bunch of hobbits > pushing cranks! Well, in the case of the 7400, there's a transistor-level schematic in the datasheet (which I have to hand). It seems pretty accurate. I trust the minimal block diagrams in modern CPU data sheets rather less. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 12 14:13:27 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20100512120249.F44649@shell.lmi.net> > when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : > - you do not have a single AT powersupply in the house, just 20 ATX PS An AT supply isn't a good fit in a 5150 case. Look for a PC or XT supply. XT supplies have enough power for "medium" size MFM drives. > - do not have a single PC compatible keyboard, but 10 AT & 10 PS2 keyboards > - at least 50% of your MFM drives have passed away in their sleep. The 5150 didn't originally have a "fixed" (veterinary context?) disk. > - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a standard 5150 For reviving the machine, any will do. 1.10 or above for double sided drives 2.00 or above if you want 9SPT, subdirectories, hard drive, etc. 2.10 or above if you have a lot of non-standard hardware (2.11 is MS-DOS only, and often already has weird add-ins) 3.00 or above if you want 1.2M (HD floppy controller 3.10 or above if you want a CDROM with MSCDEX, etc. 3.20 or above if you want built-in support of 720K 3.30 or above if you want support of 1.4M (HD floppy controller!) 3.31 or above if you want a drive larger than 32M 6.00 or above if you want built-in support for compression > Time to grow up I guess. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 12 14:24:30 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 12:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA39FB.5020203@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <4BEA39FB.5020203@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20100512122233.P44649@shell.lmi.net> > > when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : > > - do not have a single PC compatible keyboard, but 10 AT & 10 PS2 keyboards On Wed, 12 May 2010, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Are none of the AT ones switchable ? some after-market ones; none from IBM (IIRC) > > - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a > > standard 5150 > Depending on what you mean by 'standard' then everything up to PC-DOS > 7/PC-DOS 2000, or MS-DOS 6.x. Both of those need 640K I think, acording > to the box anyways.... 6.xx does not NEED 640K. From spc at conman.org Wed May 12 14:34:16 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:34:16 -0400 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100512193416.GA1351@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated: > From: Dan Gahlinger > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 8:02 PM > > > and about the sun workstation, the guy that wrote the first email > > protocol did it on that station, or at least finished it there. You > > can ask him yourself, but he doesn't respond to twits. > > More time travel. The first e-mail protocol was a specialization of > FTP, adopted while the entirety of the file transfer protocol was in > development (see, for example, RFC 463, February 1973, bottom of page 2). To be charitable to Dan, perhaps he's talking about sendmail, which was written in 1981, althought the only person that can definitively state one way or the other is Allman. -spc (And I could see a tape labeled OS/2 without having anything to do with IBM's OS/2---perhaps it's the OS tape #2 of 2 ... ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 12 15:34:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 13:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20100512133348.R49339@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 May 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > Obviously some features of the later versions of DOS aren't going to > work on the 5150, e.g., EMM386. . . . and HIMEM.SYS won't work on 5150 or 5160 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 12 15:53:01 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 16:53:01 -0400 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <20100512133348.R49339@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com> <20100512133348.R49339@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 5/12/10, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 12 May 2010, Eric Smith wrote: >> Obviously some features of the later versions of DOS aren't going to >> work on the 5150, e.g., EMM386. > > . . . and HIMEM.SYS won't work on 5150 or 5160 I remember debugging a (newer) DOS machine setup with HIMEM.SYS problems... after much more time spent fiddling around with config files than I care to confess to, it dawned on me that it's hard to load DOS HIGH and use extended memory when the machine in question only has four 256KB SIMMs (i.e. - no physical memory past 1MB). I suppose it's even harder when the machine only has 20 address lines. Ah... all those old skills that were once considered absolutely essential to succeed in the IT biz... rusting away (but I was doing RT-11, VMS, UNIX, and AmigaDOS when DOS was "king". DOS skills were for setting up sound blasters and low memory issues in game machines ;-). -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 12 16:48:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 14:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 May 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > Jos: for my money, MS-DOS 3.3 was the classic version for the original > PC. With <=640K of RAM, no full-function version of DOS offers as much > functionality in as little conventional RAM. All the later versions > are bigger but normally hide bits of themselves in the HMA or UMBs to > maximise free base memory, which is no help if you only have base > memory and nothing else. My personal favorite is MS-DOS 6.2x. "Only version of MS-DOS where the highest priority in the upgrades was to make it more reliable." > DR-DOS 3.4 might be worth a look if you can find it, but it's obscure. "Ahh, but that is the predecessor to MS-DOS" (OK, common ancestor) From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed May 12 17:02:07 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 23:02:07 +0100 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com> <20100512133348.R49339@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BEB255F.6000802@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/12/10, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 12 May 2010, Eric Smith wrote: >>> Obviously some features of the later versions of DOS aren't going to >>> work on the 5150, e.g., EMM386. >> . . . and HIMEM.SYS won't work on 5150 or 5160 > > I remember debugging a (newer) DOS machine setup with HIMEM.SYS > problems... after much more time spent fiddling around with config > files than I care to confess to, it dawned on me that it's hard to > load DOS HIGH and use extended memory when the machine in question > only has four 256KB SIMMs (i.e. - no physical memory past 1MB). Didn't some 286+ BIOSes have an option to re-locate the memory that was between 640K and 1024K to above the 1024K barrier so that HIMEM.SYS could use it ? I believe most 386+ BIOSes could also use it with EMM386. > I suppose it's even harder when the machine only has 20 address lines. Indeed, though I guess that's where propper hardware LIM/EMS comes in. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 12 17:16:55 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: assorted historical claims / was Re: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran In-Reply-To: <4BEAC596.B689C090@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, , , , <4BEAC596.B689C090@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100512150549.M52527@shell.lmi.net> > ============= > Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 > From: Dan Gahlinger dgahling at hotmail.com > Date: Tue Jan 1 03:02:54 CST 2008 > > Yes, you read that correctly. > I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which contains none > other than > OS/2 operating system. > Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! > I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. I, and many others on the list would still love to see the directory dump. It would provide many necessary clues as to whether that tape is 1) a hitherto unknown (and denied by many involved and/or knowledgeable) port of OS/2(written in VALTREP :-) 2) a backup being done on a PDP tape of PC operating system files 3) a backup of miscellaneous files from an OS/2 PC 4) some other OS with unfortunate similarity of names ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 12 17:37:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <20100512193416.GA1351@brevard.conman.org> References: <20100512193416.GA1351@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20100512153436.P52527@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 12 May 2010, Sean Conner wrote: > To be charitable to Dan, perhaps he's talking about sendmail, which was > written in 1981, althought the only person that can definitively state one > way or the other is Allman. There was a LOT of email software developed (often on Sun computers) in the mid 1980s, mostly for the purpose of making it easy for a spammer to be able to send out unwanted email that is hard to trace, without having to learn much of the details of the computer, OS, or mail protocol. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed May 12 17:44:04 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:44:04 -0700 Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <20100512153436.P52527@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100512193416.GA1351@brevard.conman.org> <20100512153436.P52527@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 3:37 PM > On Wed, 12 May 2010, Sean Conner wrote: >> To be charitable to Dan, perhaps he's talking about sendmail, which was >> written in 1981, althought the only person that can definitively state one >> way or the other is Allman. > There was a LOT of email software developed (often on Sun computers) in > the mid 1980s, mostly for the purpose of making it easy for a spammer to > be able to send out unwanted email that is hard to trace, without having > to learn much of the details of the computer, OS, or mail protocol. ITYM "mid 1990s". There was very little spam in the mid 1980s, and the 'Net was still a friendly place to live. (Cantor & Siegel was c. 1993, and spam as an advertising mode postdates that.) Rich From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 12 17:56:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran (was Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: References: <20100512193416.GA1351@brevard.conman.org> <20100512153436.P52527@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100512155427.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> > > There was a LOT of email software developed (often on Sun computers) in > > the mid 1980s, mostly for the purpose of making it easy for a spammer to > > be able to send out unwanted email that is hard to trace, without having > > to learn much of the details of the computer, OS, or mail protocol. On Wed, 12 May 2010, Rich Alderson wrote: > ITYM "mid 1990s". There was very little spam in the mid 1980s, and the 'Net > was still a friendly place to live. > (Cantor & Siegel was c. 1993, and spam as an advertising mode postdates that.) You are right. I was off by a decade. So, a Sun computer in the 1980s COULD have been used to write some of the earliest SPAM software! From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 12 17:56:58 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 23:56:58 +0100 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 12, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 12 May 2010, Liam Proven wrote: >> Jos: for my money, MS-DOS 3.3 was the classic version for the original >> PC. With <=640K of RAM, no full-function version of DOS offers as much >> functionality in as little conventional RAM. All the later versions >> are bigger but normally hide bits of themselves in the HMA or UMBs to >> maximise free base memory, which is no help if you only have base >> memory and nothing else. > > My personal favorite is MS-DOS 6.2x. ? "Only version of MS-DOS where the > highest priority in the upgrades was to make it more reliable." > >> DR-DOS 3.4 might be worth a look if you can find it, but it's obscure. > > "Ahh, but that is the predecessor to MS-DOS" ? (OK, common ancestor) [?] Only inasmuch as Tim Paterson copied CP/M when he wrote SCP QDOS...! :?) I think the DR-DOS family tree went something like: CP/M | v CP/M-86 -> Concurrent CP/M -> Concurrent DOS -> CDOS/386 -> Multiuser DOS etc. | v DOS-Plus | v DR-DOS (which also had some input from CDOS but I'm not going to try to do it in ASCII!) DR-DOS released versions went: 3.41, 5, 6 (from Novell), 7 (from Novell, then Caldera, then Lineo, then DeviceLogics), 8 (from DeviceLogics) DR-DOS 7.01 or 7.02 was open-sourced. 7.03 was closed again but the 7.01 or so branch begat the OpenDR-DOS Enhancement Project, but that's now been overtaken by FreeDOS, which in turn has kinda withered on the vine. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 12 18:11:28 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 16:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100512161027.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> > >> DR-DOS 3.4 might be worth a look if you can find it, but it's obscure. > > "Ahh, but that is the predecessor to MS-DOS" ? (OK, common ancestor) On Wed, 12 May 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > [?] Just kidding! > Only inasmuch as Tim Paterson copied CP/M when he wrote SCP QDOS...! :?) Unless he was also working from a time-traveling copy of MS-DOS or DR-DOS. From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 12 18:24:09 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 00:24:09 +0100 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <20100512161027.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> <20100512161027.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 12:11 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> DR-DOS 3.4 might be worth a look if you can find it, but it's obscure. >> > "Ahh, but that is the predecessor to MS-DOS" ? (OK, common ancestor) > > On Wed, 12 May 2010, Liam Proven wrote: >> [?] > Just kidding! >> Only inasmuch as Tim Paterson copied CP/M when he wrote SCP QDOS...! :?) > > Unless he was also working from a time-traveling copy of MS-DOS or DR-DOS. Oh gods, I must be /slow/ tonight... 8?) Sorry! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 12 19:35:00 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 18:35:00 -0600 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <20100512161027.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> <20100512161027.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BEB4934.7010303@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> DR-DOS 3.4 might be worth a look if you can find it, but it's obscure. >>> "Ahh, but that is the predecessor to MS-DOS" (OK, common ancestor) > > On Wed, 12 May 2010, Liam Proven wrote: >> [?] > Just kidding! >> Only inasmuch as Tim Paterson copied CP/M when he wrote SCP QDOS...! :?) > > Unless he was also working from a time-traveling copy of MS-DOS or DR-DOS. > I wonder if OS/8 on a PDP-8 will still be around in +200 years? Any guesses how long real hardware could last? Ben. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 12 19:43:07 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 20:43:07 -0400 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> <20100512161027.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> <4BEB4934.7010303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1C689CADB85F4F49BB4ED520CD5A723E@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 8:35 PM Subject: Re: Sigh, progresss is..... > Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>> DR-DOS 3.4 might be worth a look if you can find it, but it's obscure. >>>> "Ahh, but that is the predecessor to MS-DOS" (OK, common ancestor) >> >> On Wed, 12 May 2010, Liam Proven wrote: >>> [?] >> Just kidding! >>> Only inasmuch as Tim Paterson copied CP/M when he wrote SCP QDOS...! :?) >> >> Unless he was also working from a time-traveling copy of MS-DOS or >> DR-DOS. > > > > I wonder if OS/8 on a PDP-8 will still be around in +200 years? > Any guesses how long real hardware could last? > Ben. 1000 years easy if kept from the elements. As far as running condition, capacitors will need to be replaced sooner or later. Who knows what a modern computer will look like in 200+ years (could be an implant in your brain by that point), or a C64 running off of a waterwheel after WW3 is over. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 12 19:57:48 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 17:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <1C689CADB85F4F49BB4ED520CD5A723E@dell8300> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> <20100512161027.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> <4BEB4934.7010303@jetnet.ab.ca> <1C689CADB85F4F49BB4ED520CD5A723E@dell8300> Message-ID: <20100512175623.C57277@shell.lmi.net> > > Any guesses how long real hardware could last? On Wed, 12 May 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > 1000 years easy if kept from the elements. As far as running condition, > capacitors will need to be replaced sooner or later. Who knows what a modern > computer will look like in 200+ years (could be an implant in your brain by > that point), or a C64 running off of a waterwheel after WW3 is over. That issue may depend on whether Gerri Ellsworth is one of the survivors. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed May 12 22:21:03 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 22:21:03 -0500 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA630E.3040403@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com>, <4BEA630E.3040403@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: Just guessin. This relates to the A20 switch logic, and access to mem above 1M. It was eihter switched off and wrapped around, or enabled. Randy > Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 09:13:02 +0100 > From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk > To: > Subject: Re: Sigh, progresss is..... > > On 12/05/2010 08:38, Eric Smith wrote: > > On 05/11/2010 09:37 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> when you are trying to revive an IBM 5150, that : > > [...] > >> - you don't remember which is the last DOS version that runs on a > >> standard 5150 > > As far as I know, all releases of IBM PC DOS/IBM DOS through 6.x and > > MS-DOS through 6.x work on a 5150. I'm not sure about IBM PC DOS 7, IBM > > PC DOS 2000, or MS-DOS 7.x. > > > > Obviously some features of the later versions of DOS aren't going to > > work on the 5150, e.g., EMM386. > > Well yes, but that's kinda like saying that (for example) fdisk won't > work without a hard disk....because the hardware is not there to use it > :) :) > > Phill. > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From keithvz at verizon.net Wed May 12 22:25:29 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 23:25:29 -0400 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <20100512175623.C57277@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> <20100512161027.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> <4BEB4934.7010303@jetnet.ab.ca> <1C689CADB85F4F49BB4ED520CD5A723E@dell8300> <20100512175623.C57277@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BEB7129.8000004@verizon.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > That issue may depend on whether Gerri Ellsworth is one of the survivors. Jeri. She missed Notacon this year. I would have loved to hear a presentation from her. She's given a few talks over the last four or five years. Forget meeting the president or favorite sports hero, I'll take lunch and a technical talk w/ Jeri any day. Keith From trixter at oldskool.org Wed May 12 22:49:21 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 22:49:21 -0500 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <4BEA5AF2.2090002@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BEB76C1.3050207@oldskool.org> On 5/12/2010 2:38 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > As far as I know, all releases of IBM PC DOS/IBM DOS through 6.x and > MS-DOS through 6.x work on a 5150. I'm not sure about IBM PC DOS 7, IBM > PC DOS 2000, or MS-DOS 7.x. I run PC DOS 2000 (7.0 with y2k fixes) on my 5160 just fine. It's nice using 2010 as a date and having it actually work. > Obviously some features of the later versions of DOS aren't going to > work on the 5150, e.g., EMM386. No, but QRAM + a real hardware EMS board allows me to load TSRs high even on my 5160. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 12 23:54:18 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 00:54:18 -0400 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... In-Reply-To: <4BEB7129.8000004@verizon.net> References: <4BEA308D.1030207@bluewin.ch> <20100512144514.P52527@shell.lmi.net> <20100512161027.Q52527@shell.lmi.net> <4BEB4934.7010303@jetnet.ab.ca> <1C689CADB85F4F49BB4ED520CD5A723E@dell8300> <20100512175623.C57277@shell.lmi.net> <4BEB7129.8000004@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BEB85FA.7040202@gmail.com> Keith M wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> That issue may depend on whether Gerri Ellsworth is one of the survivors. > > Jeri. > > She missed Notacon this year. I would have loved to hear a presentation > from her. She's given a few talks over the last four or five years. > > Forget meeting the president or favorite sports hero, I'll take lunch > and a technical talk w/ Jeri any day. She once kicked my ass in an armwrestling match. Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 13 02:06:22 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:06:22 +0200 Subject: scsi-ide bridge LUNs In-Reply-To: <4BE9D8A6.2030101@chdickman.com> References: <4BE9D8A6.2030101@chdickman.com> Message-ID: <20100513090622.cfb29cfd.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 11 May 2010 18:22:30 -0400 Charles H Dickman wrote: > I would like to split a 30GB IDE drive into 4 or so logical units. > I don't know much about SCSI really, but I believe that it is possible > to divide some drives into individually addressable logical drives, > sort of like partitions, but at the hardware level. The SCSI bridge could do this. As already mentioned some RAID arrays split an array into multiple volumes and present each volume to the host as a LUN. It should be no problem doing this with a single disk. But the controler must support this and most likely the ACARD doesn't. > I am trying to compare different versions of NetBSD. You can do this: Make a sd0a partition that holds your primary instalation and the kernels of your different other versions. Make a partition for each additional version you wane test, e.g. sd0d, sd0e, ... and hardcode these as root-partition in your individual kernels: config netbsd root on sd0e type ffs This way you can have multiple parallel instalations, each in a separate partition. Boot selection is done by chosing a different kernel to boot on the boot prompt. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From stuart at zen.co.uk Thu May 13 03:34:25 2010 From: stuart at zen.co.uk (stuart at zen.co.uk) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:34:25 +0100 Subject: wanted: Grid Compass 110x series equipment Message-ID: Hi everyone, I'm looking to acquire a system and peripherals for the Grid Compass 1101. I did have a system several years ago and would keenly like to get hold of another one. Good price paid for someone willing to ship to the UK. Thanks! Stuart. From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Thu May 13 03:55:27 2010 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:55:27 +0200 Subject: San Fransisco area help needed Message-ID: Hi, Can someone in the SF area tell me if the Bethlehem-Steel-Administration-Building located at Northeast corner of 20th and Illinois still exists ? If it still there, is someone willing to check out if this IBM 3741 is still standing there. See: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=ibm&w=55599586%40N00 It would be really great if someone can salvage its keyboard to repair my broken IBM 3741. Many thanks ! Regards Henk http://www.ibmsystem3.nl ============================================================================ ============================ Wanted: IBM 3741/3742 keyboard. Henk Stegeman h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Sat Apr 11 13:12:26 CDT 2009 * Previous message: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying bidding from buyer's perspective * Next message: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] Hello all, Does anyone have a keyboard of an IBM 3741 or 3742 spare ? Mine has stopped working. IBM has used two custom LSI chip in this keyboard and makes it now non repairable :-( Please contact me off list if you can help. Thanks Henk http://www.ibmsystem3.nl * Previous message: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying bidding from buyer's perspective * Next message: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] More information about the cctalk mailing list From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu May 13 04:15:17 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:15:17 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> On 10 May 2010, at 21:29, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 26 > Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:28:32 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: > thebeginningof > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4BE80A00.31785.DF06BA at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 10 May 2010 at 19:11, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> So if someone in the US orders a billion from a >> company in the UK, how many of the item should they expect to >> receive?! Is that why orders are given in numbers and not words, and >> why cheques have both? > > Well, as I mentioned, I listen to the BBC World Service a lot and > today they were taling about the ECB bailout fund as being one > Trillion dollars. > > Economics aside, I don't think they were talking about 10**18 > simoleons, unless they were Zimbabwean simoleons. > > If the BBC uses the short form billion, trillion, then it's pretty > safe to assume that the long form is sunsetting. > > --Chuck About ten years ago the BBC made an official statement that when talking about money, a billion would mean a thousand million but elsewhere it would mean a million million. To me a number is a number and that was b......t but the problem is US has a bit too much influence on broadcasting, you only have to look at the questions on the UK version of 'who wants to be a millionaire' where they asked what you would do with a 'brown betty' in a fairly low value question. The contestant and I guess 75% of the audience had no idea. Of course the other 25% might have just guessed randomly. Actually there is really no excuse for creating confusion as they could just as easily talk about GigaPounds or GigaDollars or for 10^12, TeraPounds/Dollars. I have no problem with the many americanisms in my life but to me numbers are sacrosanct. Just because a single US journalist made a mistake in the 1930s should not make us all roll over and play dead on a matter of principal. Roger (UK born and bred) From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Thu May 13 06:15:43 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 07:15:43 -0400 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... Message-ID: <20100513111543.CC6BCBA5669@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > How do you have MFM drives and nothing else of that vintage around? I'm not the OP, but by the late 80's my impression was that even the best of the MFM drives were pretty crappy in terms of reliability. In the early 90's in the minicomputer surplus streams good SMD and then ESDI drives and then SCSI became available (not necessarily free but affordable) and the best of these were built like tanks. In the mid-90's in the PC-clone surplus streams MFM drives were a dime a dozen. But most had never been in a 5150, they were from clones of the early AT era before IDE took over in that market. While putting a MFM hard drive into a 5150 was possible in any number of ways and certainly the power users did so, the vast majority of institutional 5150's (ones owned by businesses, hospitals, governments, schools) I saw were never taken beyond floppy drives. Every so often I'd see one with no floppies, just the cassette interface :-), those are the ones I took note of! Probably bought by the "power loser" instead of the "power user" crowd... the line could be incredibly thin sometimes! Tim. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Thu May 13 06:22:19 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 07:22:19 -0400 Subject: Sigh, progresss is..... Message-ID: <20100513112219.DB50CBA565D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Ben wrote: > I wonder if OS/8 on a PDP-8 will still be around in +200 years? No, but someone will have a DECTape labelded "Windows 2010 for the PDP-8" along with a directory listing and an expert witness saying that it's real. Tim. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu May 13 07:22:59 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 07:22:59 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> References: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <201005131228.o4DCSXPC034526@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:15 AM 5/13/2010, Roger Holmes wrote: >To me a number is a number and that was b......t but the problem is US has a bit too much influence on broadcasting, you only have to look at the questions on the UK version of 'who wants to be a millionaire' where they asked what you would do with a 'brown betty' in a fairly low value question. Another phrase with a British meaning and a USAian meaning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Betty >I have no problem with the many americanisms in my life but to me numbers are sacrosanct. Just because a single US journalist made a mistake in the 1930s should not make us all roll over and play dead on a matter of principal. Principal? Are we talking about money again, or values? There's a principle at stake! - John From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu May 13 07:49:18 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 07:49:18 -0500 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> References: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <1D7F93C5-BA52-4828-B819-7037B30924C0@bellsouth.net> You mean, kind of like "aluminium?" I will never, ever refer to a kilo-, mega-, giga-, ... bytes in kibi-, mibi-, gibi, ... that sounds dumb. Oh, and Pluto is still a planet. ;) On May 13, 2010, at 4:15 AM, Roger Holmes wrote: > > On 10 May 2010, at 21:29, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> >> Message: 26 >> Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:28:32 -0700 >> From: "Chuck Guzis" >> Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: >> thebeginningof >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Message-ID: <4BE80A00.31785.DF06BA at cclist.sydex.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >> >> On 10 May 2010 at 19:11, Andrew Burton wrote: >> >>> So if someone in the US orders a billion from a >>> company in the UK, how many of the item should they expect to >>> receive?! Is that why orders are given in numbers and not words, and >>> why cheques have both? >> >> Well, as I mentioned, I listen to the BBC World Service a lot and >> today they were taling about the ECB bailout fund as being one >> Trillion dollars. >> >> Economics aside, I don't think they were talking about 10**18 >> simoleons, unless they were Zimbabwean simoleons. >> >> If the BBC uses the short form billion, trillion, then it's pretty >> safe to assume that the long form is sunsetting. >> >> --Chuck > > About ten years ago the BBC made an official statement that when talking about money, a billion would mean a thousand million but elsewhere it would mean a million million. > > To me a number is a number and that was b......t but the problem is US has a bit too much influence on broadcasting, you only have to look at the questions on the UK version of 'who wants to be a millionaire' where they asked what you would do with a 'brown betty' in a fairly low value question. The contestant and I guess 75% of the audience had no idea. Of course the other 25% might have just guessed randomly. > > Actually there is really no excuse for creating confusion as they could just as easily talk about GigaPounds or GigaDollars or for 10^12, TeraPounds/Dollars. > > I have no problem with the many americanisms in my life but to me numbers are sacrosanct. Just because a single US journalist made a mistake in the 1930s should not make us all roll over and play dead on a matter of principal. > > Roger (UK born and bred) > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu May 13 08:10:49 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 06:10:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How I met your motherboard Message-ID: <620176.10430.qm@web113513.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> A guy started a website called How I met your motherboard.. http://howimetyourmotherboard.com/ The NY Times interviews him on their podcast http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/tech-talk-podcast-ancient-pcs/?ref=technology The podcast is not as interesting as the site. From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Thu May 13 08:21:29 2010 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 14:21:29 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <1D7F93C5-BA52-4828-B819-7037B30924C0@bellsouth.net> References: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> <1D7F93C5-BA52-4828-B819-7037B30924C0@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On 13 May 2010 13:49, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > You mean, kind of like "aluminium?" > > Humphry Davy wanted to call it Aluminum but apparently that didn't sound 'Classical' enough. Or was that what you meant? -- Pete Edwards "It looks just like a Telefunken U-47" - Frank Zappa From shumaker at att.net Thu May 13 08:31:58 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 09:31:58 -0400 Subject: San Fransisco area help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> google map shows it still standing.... Henk Stegeman wrote: > Hi, > > Can someone in the SF area tell me if the > Bethlehem-Steel-Administration-Building located at Northeast corner > of 20th and Illinois still exists ? > > If it still there, is someone willing to check out if this IBM 3741 > is still standing there. > See: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=ibm&w=55599586%40N00 > > It would be really great if someone can salvage its keyboard to > repair my broken IBM 3741. > > Many thanks ! > > Regards Henk > http://www.ibmsystem3.nl > > ============================================================================ > ============================ > > Wanted: IBM 3741/3742 keyboard. > Henk Stegeman h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl > Sat Apr 11 13:12:26 CDT 2009 > > * Previous message: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying > bidding from buyer's perspective > * Next message: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > Hello all, > > Does anyone have a keyboard of an IBM 3741 or 3742 spare ? > > Mine has stopped working. IBM has used two custom LSI chip in > this keyboard and makes it now non repairable :-( > > Please contact me off list if you can help. > > Thanks > Henk > > http://www.ibmsystem3.nl > > * Previous message: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying > bidding from buyer's perspective > * Next message: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > More information about the cctalk mailing list > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 13 08:42:13 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 06:42:13 -0700 Subject: Optical cards In-Reply-To: <20100513112219.DB50CBA565D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100513112219.DB50CBA565D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: Hi Does anyone need an EISA optical link card set. I got this nice 486 Dolch portable computer and it had a two card set in it. There is some software for it on the hard disk as well. I don't know if it is full host software or just enough to get the link connected. It is a two card set with an in/out optical connector on each board and what looks like a regular 6 pin eithernet on one board. No manufacture. Some of the chips have PLAYER+ but I think that these are standard optical network chips. Software has directorys like ENSNIFF and FDSNIFF. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu May 13 08:55:12 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 06:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> <1D7F93C5-BA52-4828-B819-7037B30924C0@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <514473.34473.qm@web83908.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Just pointing out other areas of contention with nomenclature. ;) It's not like there aren't plenty of other elements in the periodic table that ended in -um instead of -ium. Never have figured out what the fuss was about this one. ________________________________ From: Pete Edwards To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, May 13, 2010 8:21:29 AM Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof On 13 May 2010 13:49, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > You mean, kind of like "aluminium?" > > Humphry Davy wanted to call it Aluminum but apparently that didn't sound 'Classical' enough. Or was that what you meant? -- Pete Edwards "It looks just like a Telefunken U-47" - Frank Zappa From keithvz at verizon.net Thu May 13 09:06:44 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:06:44 -0400 Subject: Optical cards In-Reply-To: References: <20100513112219.DB50CBA565D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4BEC0774.5090304@verizon.net> dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > Does anyone need an EISA optical link card set. > > It is a two card set with an in/out optical connector > > on each board and what looks like a regular 6 pin > > eithernet on one board. > While I'm not interested, can you please clarify what it is that you have? Is this an ethernet card? If so, is it a 10base-FL card? There was also an older FOIRL standard. Is it 100base-FX/SX ? Multimode 850nm or 1300nm optics? Ethernet typically has an RJ45, which is an 8-pin modular connector. Four pins are active for 10mb and 100mb on copper, pins 1&2 and 3&6. Thanks Keith From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 13 09:27:24 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 07:27:24 -0700 Subject: Optical cards In-Reply-To: <4BEC0774.5090304@verizon.net> References: <20100513112219.DB50CBA565D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, , <4BEC0774.5090304@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:06:44 -0400 > From: keithvz at verizon.net > To: General at olddell.com > Subject: Re: Optical cards > > dwight elvey wrote: > > > > Hi > > > > Does anyone need an EISA optical link card set. > > > > It is a two card set with an in/out optical connector > > > > on each board and what looks like a regular 6 pin > > > > eithernet on one board. > > > > While I'm not interested, can you please clarify what it is that you have? > > Is this an ethernet card? If so, is it a 10base-FL card? There was > also an older FOIRL standard. Is it 100base-FX/SX ? Multimode 850nm or > 1300nm optics? > > Ethernet typically has an RJ45, which is an 8-pin modular connector. > Four pins are active for 10mb and 100mb on copper, pins 1&2 and 3&6. > > Thanks > > Keith Hi I just did a little more searching on the net. It has a seperate Ethernet card that I'm sure is 10base. It has the 8 pin RJ45, coax and connector to a eithernet driver for the old triax cable. It seems that this was intended to be a network analyser machine. I see various similar machines on ebay. It was called a Network Sniffer. I wouldn't know 850nm from 1300nm. The optical ports are retangular, about 1.5x3/8 in. I picked it up because it has a nice 486 that I can run my EP10 programmer from that is more compact than my desk top and monitor. It has a 400Meg HD and color LCD. A similar machine is ebay #330383454040 but with a different ethernet card. The keyboard is flakey ( multiple letters on some keys ) but I can clean these up. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 13 10:50:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 08:50:55 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> References: , <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4BEBBD6F.25077.103C20@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 May 2010 at 10:15, Roger Holmes wrote: > Actually there is really no excuse for creating confusion as they > could just as easily talk about GigaPounds or GigaDollars or for > 10^12, TeraPounds/Dollars. > > I have no problem with the many americanisms in my life but to me > numbers are sacrosanct. Just because a single US journalist made a > mistake in the 1930s should not make us all roll over and play dead on > a matter of principal. Principle? Or is that another Americanism of which I'm not aware? In my lexicon, money is a matter of principal, as is the leader of a group. With the increasing proliferation of terms describing our prowess in making things smaller, faster, and less valuable (yotta, exa, zetta, zepto, yocto, etc.) nomenclature has gotten completely out of hand. What we really need is a word denoting the base-10 logarithmic scale of a number. Something could be coined that's akin to "point" ("ten to the..." is just too verbally cumbersome). A nice short word, like "burp" would do. So we could talk about a "burp 6" euros or "5 burp 10 Zimbabwean dollars" It's really a shame that we introduce "scientific notation" so late in school mathematics as if it's something peculiar to the test tube and telescope set. I think it should be taught right from the outset with basic counting. The result might be a better comprehension of numeric precision (another pet peeve of mine). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 13 13:07:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> References: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <20100513110248.L85623@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 May 2010, Roger Holmes wrote: > About ten years ago the BBC made an official statement that when talking > about money, a billion would mean a thousand million but elsewhere it > would mean a million million. > To me a number is a number and that was b......t but the problem is US > has a bit too much influence on broadcasting, you only have to look at . . . and IBM has a Megabyte of disk space is 1,024,000 10^3*2^10 a megabyte of memory is 1,048,576 2^20 a megahertz is 1,000,000 10^6 a number is a number and that is b......t but the problem is IBM has a bit too much influence, . . . From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 13 13:18:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BEBBD6F.25077.103C20@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> <4BEBBD6F.25077.103C20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100513111521.L85623@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What we really need is a word denoting the base-10 logarithmic scale > of a number. Something could be coined that's akin to "point" ("ten > to the..." is just too verbally cumbersome). A nice short word, like > "burp" would do. So we could talk about a "burp 6" euros or "5 burp > 10 Zimbabwean dollars" > It's really a shame that we introduce "scientific notation" so late > in school mathematics as if it's something peculiar to the test tube > and telescope set. I think it should be taught right from the outset > with basic counting. The result might be a better comprehension of > numeric precision (another pet peeve of mine). 40+ years ago, superscripts were rather awkward to do with a typewriter, so many working scientists started using E (not as appealing as "burp"). 6.02 E 23 5 E 10 etc. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 13 13:37:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: <1CC5BFCB-F8CF-4809-9870-AE7C67D5D9DB@microspot.co.uk> <1D7F93C5-BA52-4828-B819-7037B30924C0@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20100513113409.B85623@shell.lmi.net> > > You mean, kind of like "aluminium?" On Thu, 13 May 2010, Pete Edwards wrote: > Humphry Davy wanted to call it Aluminum but apparently that didn't sound > 'Classical' enough. > Or was that what you meant? Being able to spell competantly is no longer a graduation requirement. The license plate frame on my car says, "UC Berkeley Aluminum" But, I also had an aluminium one made for my doctoral advisor, who is British. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From leolists at seidkr.com Thu May 13 13:40:40 2010 From: leolists at seidkr.com (Philip Leonard) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 13:40:40 -0500 Subject: IBM System 360 Model 91 operator console from 1969 In-Reply-To: <001401caf148$139c7340$3ad559c0$@house@computer.org> References: <001401caf148$139c7340$3ad559c0$@house@computer.org> Message-ID: <4BEC47A8.5050407@seidkr.com> On 5/11/2010 3:25 PM, dh wrote: > I will be moving and may need to place it in a new home. It is huge: 6x4x2 > feet with over 2100 lights. Currently in Raleigh, NC, USA. Serious inquiries > only please. Kind Regards, Daniel That would be cool. But I am too far away. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 13 13:35:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 19:35:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100513111521.L85623@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 13, 10 11:18:44 am Message-ID: > 40+ years ago, superscripts were rather awkward to do with a typewriter, > so many working scientists started using E (not as appealing as "burp"). > 6.02 E 23 > 5 E 10 > etc. fwiw 9and to make this marginally on-topic), HP 9800 calcualtors accept that notation when reading a string of characters from an interface device. 1.2E3 would be taken as 1200. The HP11203 BCD interface actually produces that sort of string in hardware from the BCD lines coming from a measuring instruemtn. Of course you get idiots who think '1 million is ten to the sixth. So that's 10E6' Of course ti's 1E6 really... -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 13 15:18:24 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 13:18:24 -0700 Subject: San Fransisco area help needed In-Reply-To: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> Message-ID: Yeah, but Google Maps shows that my neighbor still has the minivan she totaled last year.... (Of course Bing Maps shows that I still have the Jeep I sold three years ago.) -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:32 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: San Fransisco area help needed > > google map shows it still standing.... > > > > > > Henk Stegeman wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Can someone in the SF area tell me if the > > Bethlehem-Steel-Administration-Building located at Northeast corner > > of 20th and Illinois still exists ? > > > > If it still there, is someone willing to check out if this IBM 3741 > > is still standing there. > > See: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=ibm&w=55599586%40N00 > > > > It would be really great if someone can salvage its keyboard to > > repair my broken IBM 3741. > > > > Many thanks ! > > > > Regards Henk > > http://www.ibmsystem3.nl > > > > > ======================================================================= > ===== > > ============================ > > > > Wanted: IBM 3741/3742 keyboard. > > Henk Stegeman h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl > > Sat Apr 11 13:12:26 CDT 2009 > > > > * Previous message: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying > > bidding from buyer's perspective > > * Next message: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface > > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > > > Hello all, > > > > Does anyone have a keyboard of an IBM 3741 or 3742 spare ? > > > > Mine has stopped working. IBM has used two custom LSI chip in > > this keyboard and makes it now non repairable :-( > > > > Please contact me off list if you can help. > > > > Thanks > > Henk > > > > http://www.ibmsystem3.nl > > > > * Previous message: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying > > bidding from buyer's perspective > > * Next message: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface > > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > > > More information about the cctalk mailing list > > > > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 13 15:46:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 13:46:05 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100513111521.L85623@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4BEBBD6F.25077.103C20@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100513111521.L85623@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BEC029D.31431.11E7705@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 May 2010 at 11:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > 40+ years ago, superscripts were rather awkward to do with a > typewriter, so many working scientists started using E (not as > appealing as "burp"). 6.02 E 23 5 E 10 etc. You know that I know that, Fred. Shall we use "D" for the base to a double-precision exponent. But "burp" is easy to say and can be spelled in most languages. "E" maybe not so much. (Which sidetracks me to the pronounciation of "euro". It must really grate on various nationalities that it's not pronouced "oy-ro". But I digress). Similarly, we need another simple one-syllable designator for negative exponents. How about "pop"? --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Thu May 13 15:46:09 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 16:46:09 -0400 Subject: San Fransisco area help needed In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> Message-ID: <4BEC6511.2000309@att.net> ya used to be able to judge image dates by individual copyrights but they aren't updated like they used to be... Ian King wrote: > Yeah, but Google Maps shows that my neighbor still has the minivan she totaled last year.... (Of course Bing Maps shows that I still have the Jeep I sold three years ago.) -- Ian > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker >> Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:32 AM >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: San Fransisco area help needed >> >> google map shows it still standing.... >> >> >> >> >> >> Henk Stegeman wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Can someone in the SF area tell me if the >>> Bethlehem-Steel-Administration-Building located at Northeast corner >>> of 20th and Illinois still exists ? >>> >>> If it still there, is someone willing to check out if this IBM 3741 >>> is still standing there. >>> See: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=ibm&w=55599586%40N00 >>> >>> It would be really great if someone can salvage its keyboard to >>> repair my broken IBM 3741. >>> >>> Many thanks ! >>> >>> Regards Henk >>> http://www.ibmsystem3.nl >>> >>> >>> >> ======================================================================= >> ===== >> >>> ============================ >>> >>> Wanted: IBM 3741/3742 keyboard. >>> Henk Stegeman h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl >>> Sat Apr 11 13:12:26 CDT 2009 >>> >>> * Previous message: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying >>> bidding from buyer's perspective >>> * Next message: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface >>> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> Does anyone have a keyboard of an IBM 3741 or 3742 spare ? >>> >>> Mine has stopped working. IBM has used two custom LSI chip in >>> this keyboard and makes it now non repairable :-( >>> >>> Please contact me off list if you can help. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Henk >>> >>> http://www.ibmsystem3.nl >>> >>> * Previous message: (was) I [don't] hate E-Bay (was ...) Annoying >>> bidding from buyer's perspective >>> * Next message: HP262x keyboard to HP120 interface >>> * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] >>> >>> More information about the cctalk mailing list >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 13 15:46:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 13:46:45 -0700 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <20100513113409.B85623@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20100513113409.B85623@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BEC02C5.20548.11F14AD@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 May 2010 at 11:37, Fred Cisin wrote: > Being able to spell competantly is no longer a graduation requirement. No commant. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 13 15:47:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 13:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: San Fransisco area help needed In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> Message-ID: <20100513134730.J90904@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 May 2010, Ian King wrote: > Yeah, but Google Maps shows that my neighbor still has the minivan she > totaled last year.... (Of course Bing Maps shows that I still have the > Jeep I sold three years ago.) -- Ian a mainframe shows up on satellite pictures, . . . From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 13 15:49:08 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 16:49:08 -0400 Subject: San Fransisco area help needed In-Reply-To: <20100513134730.J90904@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <20100513134730.J90904@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 13, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 13 May 2010, Ian King wrote: >> Yeah, but Google Maps shows that my neighbor still has the minivan she >> totaled last year.... ?(Of course Bing Maps shows that I still have the >> Jeep I sold three years ago.) ?-- Ian > > a mainframe shows up on satellite pictures, . . . Hey... there's that screw I dropped... -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 13 16:03:14 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 14:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: <4BEC02C5.20548.11F14AD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20100513113409.B85623@shell.lmi.net> <4BEC02C5.20548.11F14AD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100513140231.W90904@shell.lmi.net> > > Being able to spell competantly is no longer a graduation requirement. > No commant. I certainly never claimed to be able to spell itt. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 13 16:09:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 14:09:45 -0700 Subject: San Fransisco area help needed In-Reply-To: <4BEC6511.2000309@att.net> References: , , <4BEC6511.2000309@att.net> Message-ID: <4BEC0829.29134.134238B@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 May 2010 at 16:46, steve shumaker wrote: > ya used to be able to judge image dates by individual copyrights but > they aren't updated like they used to be... A couple of years ago, I went hacking through some deep brush to find out what the heck I was seeing on a Google sattelite photo of my land. Couldn't find a thing. So I asked Google what the heck was going on. They informed me that I was looking at a digital watermark. Sigh. --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Thu May 13 16:11:47 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 17:11:47 -0400 Subject: HP3000 Series 37 Front Panel Key Message-ID: <01CAF2BF.6C9EC420@MSE_D03> ----------------Original Message: From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: HP3000 Series 37 Front Panel Key > > Lee, > > I've got a micro 37 and the key is like nothing I've ever seen before. It's > a flat bar about 3/16" of an inch wide and 7/16" long. There are a series of > holes drilled in the sides of the key of varying depth. If that's the same > one you computer needs, I've got no idea where you'de find one :-( If I am understanding the description correctly, this sounds like a smaller version of the keys used on some VAG (Volkswagen, etc) cars. As you imply, it's the hole depth that varies from key to key. --------------Reply: Same type of key used by late model Cromemcos (KABA Micro?). mike From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu May 13 16:13:04 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 17:13:04 -0400 Subject: San Fransisco area help needed References: , , <4BEC6511.2000309@att.net> <4BEC0829.29134.134238B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8531AEBB8D694AC9A9C7951D44D58990@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 5:09 PM Subject: Re: San Fransisco area help needed > On 13 May 2010 at 16:46, steve shumaker wrote: > >> ya used to be able to judge image dates by individual copyrights but >> they aren't updated like they used to be... > > A couple of years ago, I went hacking through some deep brush to find > out what the heck I was seeing on a Google sattelite photo of my > land. Couldn't find a thing. > > So I asked Google what the heck was going on. They informed me that > I was looking at a digital watermark. > > Sigh. > > --Chuck > What did they use for a watermark, a pirates chest? :) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 13 16:18:01 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 22:18:01 +0100 Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Actually, what I meant (and didn't say) is that a "hello world" program in HTML these days takes no code at all, other than the text "hello world"! I just tested this on Firefox 2 before posting this reply. It seems that some (all?) *current-ish* (giving myself some room to move there!) browsers don't need the intro and outro HTML tags (e.g. HTML and BODY). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 1:00 AM Subject: Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN > On Mon, 10 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Well, a "hello world" "programme" in HTML only takes 1 line of code!! :) > > Well, a "hello world" "programme" in BASIC only takes 1 line of code!! :) > > > That eliminates a lot of frustration for somebody's FIRST exposure to > programming. > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 13 17:00:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:00:36 -0400 Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net> <015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <664BBC66-8A0F-4A0A-B19B-02D5317AB9B4@neurotica.com> On May 13, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > Actually, what I meant (and didn't say) is that a "hello world" > program in > HTML these days takes no code at all, other than the text "hello > world"! > I just tested this on Firefox 2 before posting this reply. It seems > that > some (all?) *current-ish* (giving myself some room to move there!) > browsers > don't need the intro and outro HTML tags (e.g. HTML and BODY). I don't recall any web browser ever actually requiring that in order to spit out text. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 13 17:02:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:02:34 -0400 Subject: San Fransisco area help needed In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> Message-ID: <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> On May 13, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Ian King wrote: > Yeah, but Google Maps shows that my neighbor still has the minivan > she totaled last year.... (Of course Bing Maps shows that I still > have the Jeep I sold three years ago.) -- Ian "Street view" used to have a picture of my driveway with my ex- girlfriend's truck sitting there, much to the annoyance of my current girlfriend. Now they have a picture of an empty rack sitting outside the garage door. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 13 19:27:32 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 17:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: assorted historical claims / was Re: Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran In-Reply-To: <4BEAC596.B689C090@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , , <20100507213433.D50871@shell.lmi.net>, , , <1273585326.27931.16.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, , , , <4BEAC596.B689C090@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100513172528.T97513@shell.lmi.net> > When you make a claim about some historical event, esp. a claim which counters > long-established historical accounts, it is not the obligation of the rest of > the world to prove you wrong, it is your obligation to support your claim with > something more than 'I say so'. On the other hand, we do tend to learn a few things in the process of research to refute Dan's claims. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ("a Socrates gone mad") cisin at xenosoft.com From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu May 13 20:15:33 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 21:15:33 -0400 Subject: Valtrep might have been the predecessor of fortran but probably not In-Reply-To: <4BE7DCEB.27774.2EEC83@cclist.sydex.com> References: <337276.13994.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , <4BE7DCEB.27774.2EEC83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: it wasn't a claim. it was a question. it was what I was told (at the time) by the university. the language and structure is very suggestive that it was a predecessor. I could find *ZERO* documentation or references anywhere on the net to either valtrep or the sentry 70 system it ran on. so, like an idiot, I thought why not ask all these smart people on this list for help, surely someone else must have worked with it, must have seen this stuff. surely some historical record exists of the language or at least the computers that ran it, certainly someone kind, and wise enough of these things could fill in the blanks, and advise. I still can't find any references, other than what has been posted to the list. so far it only goes back to the 70s, with no real historical evidence of even the company that made the computers that ran this stuff. could it be earlier? yes, could it be later, probably. again i refer to similar situations in etymology. but instead of kind words and help and guidance, I got trolls. that's not what this list is supposed to be about. or at least, so I thought... wrong again? Dan. _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes: Hotmail makes your day easier! Enter Now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729710 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 13 20:43:33 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 18:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Valtrep might have been the predecessor of fortran but probably not In-Reply-To: References: <337276.13994.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , , <4BE7DCEB.27774.2EEC83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100513183216.G99963@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > it wasn't a claim. it was a question. > it was what I was told (at the time) by the university. > the language and structure is very suggestive that it was a predecessor. > I could find *ZERO* documentation or references anywhere on the net to > either valtrep or the sentry 70 system it ran on. > so, like an idiot, I thought why not ask all these smart people on this list for help, > surely someone else must have worked with it, must have seen this stuff. > surely some historical record exists of the language or at least the computers that ran it, > certainly someone kind, and wise enough of these things could fill in the blanks, and advise. > I still can't find any references, other than what has been posted to the list. > so far it only goes back to the 70s, with no real historical evidence of even the company that made > the computers that ran this stuff. > could it be earlier? yes, could it be later, probably. > again i refer to similar situations in etymology. > but instead of kind words and help and guidance, I got trolls. > that's not what this list is supposed to be about. or at least, so I > thought... wrong again? Wrong again. In a discussion of "where did Apple get the FORTRAN for the Lisa?", you posted: On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep > I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the 80s > yes, this was after fortran was already quite established. > it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do valtrep. > Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep is quite useless it seems... Perhaps your queries would be treated more like questions if you structured them as questions, rather than as definitive [QUESTIONABLE!] declarations. Declaring that FORTRAN came from Valtrep, is not only NOT the answer to where Apple got their FORTRAN, it is difficult to parse that as being a question or a request for further information. We don't/can't fault you for the scarcity of data online about Valtrep and Sentry-70. But, when the information that you provided is contradictory to the knowledge of history, then wisdom dictates questioning the credibility of the data. And enlightenment warns us to not feed trolls. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 14 08:16:53 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 06:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: This is just cooler than words: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100513121121635 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 14 08:28:33 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 06:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "May 14, 10 06:16:53 am" Message-ID: <201005141328.o4EDSX07017492@floodgap.com> > This is just cooler than words: > > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100513121121635 Ironic that the final knife in Commodore came from Cadtrak, possibly the "original" patent troll. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "have do you a weak flatulence?" -- Babelfish Dutch translation ------------ From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 14 08:57:16 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 14:57:16 +0100 Subject: Valtrep might have been the predecessor of fortran but probably not In-Reply-To: References: <337276.13994.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4BE7DCEB.27774.2EEC83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:15 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > it wasn't a claim. it was a question. No, it wasn't. It was a bald statement, an assertion of something that was not and could not be true. Same as the legendary first-computer-on-the-Internet Sun workstation and the OS/2-for-the-PDP-11. The thing is, you're on a mailing list here. That means it's not live, it's a self-archiving medium. You can't say something and then go back and claim that you said something else, because we all have the original message. We can very easily see what you actually did as opposed to what you later say you did. You have a desire for historical revisionism that is almost Stalinist. > it was what I was told (at the time) by the university. Then, as I have already said, you need to check out these claims *first*, *before* you go repeating them and making yourself look like a fool. > the language and structure is very suggestive that it was a predecessor. The chronology makes this impossible. > I could find *ZERO* documentation or references anywhere on the net to > either valtrep or the sentry 70 system it ran on. Which is strongly suggestive that you have incorrectly remembered the events of the time. You have been given highly-plausible explanations of possible such mistakes in understanding or recollection; you have not responded to these at all. > so, like an idiot, I thought why not ask all these smart people on this list for help, > surely someone else must have worked with it, must have seen this stuff. > > surely some historical record exists of the language or at least the computers that ran it, > > certainly someone kind, and wise enough of these things could fill in the blanks, and advise. Again, many people /have/ volunteered suggestions. You have ignored them or pooh-poohed them. > I still can't find any references, other than what has been posted to the list. > so far it only goes back to the 70s, with no real historical evidence of even the company that made > the computers that ran this stuff. > > could it be earlier? yes, could it be later, probably. > > again i refer to similar situations in etymology. "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." > but instead of kind words and help and guidance, I got trolls. You don't seem to know what that word means, either. As I have explained and you've ignored. > that's not what this list is supposed to be about. or at least, so I thought... wrong again? It's a bunch of crotchety old geezers, mostly. Certainly I am. :?) Come in and tell them loudly and repeatedly stuff that they know not to be true and they are /not/ going to react kindly or supportively. Personally, I think we've all shown tremendous restraint and tolerance to these occasional outbursts of ill-informed utter tosh. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From keithvz at verizon.net Fri May 14 09:09:20 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:09:20 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BED5990.9010809@verizon.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > > This is just cooler than words: > > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100513121121635 > > g. > > Gene, Thanks for the post. This is pretty cool. I'd like to see the original transcripts, photos of the demo, etc. While I don't often agree with many of the decisions the judges make, it's very interesting to read the actual court orders and opinions. I used to follow P2P file sharing cases, reading very long documents --- watching justice unfold can really be telling about the state of the system. This case against a single mother whose children supposedly downloaded music is interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santangelo_v._RIAA Her daughter defaulted on the case, which is really a shame. Keith From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 14 09:17:45 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 07:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BED5990.9010809@verizon.net> References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> <4BED5990.9010809@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 May 2010, Keith M wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> This is just cooler than words: >> >> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100513121121635 >> >> g. >> >> > > Gene, > > Thanks for the post. > > This is pretty cool. I'd like to see the original transcripts, photos of the > demo, etc. > > While I don't often agree with many of the decisions the judges make, it's > very interesting to read the actual court orders and opinions. I used to > follow P2P file sharing cases, reading very long documents --- watching > justice unfold can really be telling about the state of the system. > > This case against a single mother whose children supposedly downloaded music > is interesting: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santangelo_v._RIAA > > Her daughter defaulted on the case, which is really a shame. > The MAFIAA depend on frightened people that don't have ready access to the resources needed to fight them off. It's sickening. I suspect the transcripts of the RedHat case will be available shortly. It'll show up on Groklaw as soon as they are. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 14 09:58:17 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 07:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "May 14, 10 07:17:45 am" Message-ID: <201005141458.o4EEwHua016604@floodgap.com> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santangelo_v._RIAA > > > > Her daughter defaulted on the case, which is really a shame. > > The MAFIAA depend on frightened people that don't have ready access to the > resources needed to fight them off. It's sickening. You mean the Recording Industry Ass. of America. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Male Macintosh geeks are so predictable. All we think about is X. ---------- From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 14 10:03:17 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:03:17 +0100 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > > This is just cooler than words: > > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100513121121635 Is it me or is it just a little odd that PJ finds it so gosh-wow AMAZING that a 24-year-old Amiga still works? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri May 14 10:10:47 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:10:47 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Is it me or is it just a little odd that PJ finds it so gosh-wow > AMAZING that a 24-year-old Amiga still works? I was going to mention that. It's interesting to me that the later amigas have been actually less reliable than the 1000 because of leaking caps and that crappy battery. Cars have made it much (much) longer than that and still worked, why not computers? brian From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 14 10:18:22 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:18:22 +0100 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Is it me or is it just a little odd that PJ finds it so gosh-wow >> AMAZING that a 24-year-old Amiga still works? > > I was going to mention that. ?It's interesting to me that the later > amigas have been actually less reliable than the 1000 because of > leaking caps and that crappy battery. ?Cars have made it much (much) > longer than that and still worked, why not computers? Well, quite. To be honest, I've not tried my Miggy 1200 in 4-5 years, but it was fine when I last tried it, and it was pushing 20 then. I tend to find 1980s machines last better than 1990s / early noughties mass-produced low-quality PCs. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From keithvz at verizon.net Fri May 14 10:18:13 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 11:18:13 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BED69B5.1010601@verizon.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Is it me or is it just a little odd that PJ finds it so gosh-wow >> AMAZING that a 24-year-old Amiga still works? > > I was going to mention that. It's interesting to me that the later > amigas have been actually less reliable than the 1000 because of > leaking caps and that crappy battery. Cars have made it much (much) > longer than that and still worked, why not computers? > > brian Yeah, I noticed that too. I've got an Amiga 500 sitting on my desk at home that still purrs like a kitten. I've replaced the battery in the backup clock, although I think I damaged the trace when removing or resoldering, because it doesn't seem to keep time/date anymore. Keith From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri May 14 10:24:44 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:24:44 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Well, quite. > > To be honest, I've not tried my Miggy 1200 in 4-5 years, but it was > fine when I last tried it, and it was pushing 20 then. I tend to find > 1980s machines last better than 1990s / early noughties mass-produced > low-quality PCs. The 1200 is susceptible to leaky caps under the floppy drive area of the motherboard. Many people replace them with great success though. And working 1200 motherboards are still plentiful. I think early surface mount components had some reliability issues. Either that or cheaper parts were speced. After all, everyone will have upgraded their computer long before then. Why would a computer ever need to last more than five years? brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri May 14 10:26:28 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:26:28 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BED69B5.1010601@verizon.net> References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> <4BED69B5.1010601@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Keith M wrote: > Yeah, I noticed that too. ?I've got an Amiga 500 sitting on my desk at home > that still purrs like a kitten. ?I've replaced the battery in the backup > clock, although I think I damaged the trace when removing or resoldering, > because it doesn't seem to keep time/date anymore. The 500 didn't have a battery on the motherboard, but the 500+ did iirc. For the 500, the battery and clock was part of the trap door memory upgrade. A 500+ is somewhat more rare than the plentiful 500. :-) brian From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 14 10:52:03 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 08:52:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <201005141458.o4EEwHua016604@floodgap.com> References: <201005141458.o4EEwHua016604@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 May 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santangelo_v._RIAA >>> >>> Her daughter defaulted on the case, which is really a shame. >> >> The MAFIAA depend on frightened people that don't have ready access to the >> resources needed to fight them off. It's sickening. > > You mean the Recording Industry Ass. of America. MPAA + RIAA = MAFIAA. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 14 10:53:27 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 08:53:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 May 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> This is just cooler than words: >> >> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100513121121635 > > Is it me or is it just a little odd that PJ finds it so gosh-wow > AMAZING that a 24-year-old Amiga still works? > > Not really. Keep in mind that the average person considers any computer over 5 years old to be totally unusable junk. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From keithvz at verizon.net Fri May 14 10:57:17 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 11:57:17 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> <4BED69B5.1010601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BED72DD.6030905@verizon.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:18 AM, Keith M wrote: >> Yeah, I noticed that too. I've got an Amiga 500 sitting on my desk at home >> that still purrs like a kitten. I've replaced the battery in the backup >> clock, although I think I damaged the trace when removing or resoldering, >> because it doesn't seem to keep time/date anymore. > > The 500 didn't have a battery on the motherboard, but the 500+ did > iirc. For the 500, the battery and clock was part of the trap door > memory upgrade. Right, the 500 has the trap door memory upgrade card with RTC and battery. That's the battery I replaced. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 14 11:06:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 09:06:02 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2010 at 6:16, Gene Buckle wrote: > > This is just cooler than words: > > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100513121121635 There is an increasing number of innovators who believe that the best defense against frivolous patents is to "poison the well"; that is, publish the details of your proprietary innovation, thereby making it PD, so that you can continue using it. Apparently, there are hired guns who will attempt to patent a technology that you've developed to force you out of business. If they can't patent the basic concept, they'll box you in with variations of the basic scheme. Of course, one can defend against such behavior, but patent disputes are basically tort actions, usually resulting in the party with the deepest pockets prevailing. --Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 14 11:08:19 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 12:08:19 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <201005141458.o4EEwHua016604@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4BED7573.3070801@comcast.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Fri, 14 May 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> >> You mean the Recording Industry Ass. of America. > > MPAA + RIAA = MAFIAA. > Wouldn't that be MAPHIAA :) =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 14 11:13:44 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 09:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "May 14, 10 08:52:03 am" Message-ID: <201005141613.o4EGDj9R015804@floodgap.com> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santangelo_v._RIAA > > > > > > > > Her daughter defaulted on the case, which is really a shame. > > > > > > The MAFIAA depend on frightened people that don't have ready access to the > > > resources needed to fight them off. It's sickening. > > > > You mean the Recording Industry Ass. of America. > > MPAA + RIAA = MAFIAA. Ah, well then. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Watch your mouth, kid, or you'll find yourself floating home. -- Han Solo -- From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri May 14 11:17:25 2010 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:17:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... Message-ID: <877073.84585.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hello everybody, Hopefully, somebody can help me out there... Lately, I?hooked?a M2442AC (which is basically the M2442A with an extra buffer) to a QT13-type coupler in a?microVAX, in order to save some tape contents to disk and CD-ROM. Unfortunately, when?read a tape on VMS with the DIR-command,?I get the following?console-output: %DIRECT-E-OPENIN, error opening UVAX33$MUA0:[]*.*;* as input -RMS-E-FND, ACP file or directory lookup failed -SYSTEM-F-TAPEPOSLOST, magnetic tape position lost VMSMUP050.A;1 ? Although there seems to be a problem, the name of the file can be read out. Copying doesn't work, though. I get the same error. ? Therefore, I launched the NVRAM-internal diagnostics of the Emulex-controller. The manual of the controller points out the NVRAM-settings for some types of drives, but not for drives made by Fujitsu :( The diagnostic tests, which can be run out of the diagnostics menu, all fail (except for "BOT/rewind"- and "host memory DMA"-tests) with the same error description: ? ** ERROR ** Blank tape read ? I can't find any furhter description to that error type. I tried to play this the NVRAM settings for the type drive and made repetitive tests, but each time, I get the same error. Does anybody uses such a drive/controller combination and give me some help regarding the settings ? Here are the current ones, which are stored in the QT13 for my fujitsu-drive: ? Drive type, 0=Start-Stop, 1=Streamer (0-1,def=1 dec) : On the fly commands (Y/N,def=Y) : Enable data busy timeout delay? (Y/N,def=Y) : Remote density (Y/N,def=Y) : CDC tape drive (Y/N,def=N) : Use IDEN line to select remote density (Y/N,def=N) : IDEN line true selects high density (Y/N,def=N) : Adaptive DMA (Y/N,def=Y) : Blank Tape Timeout value, in seconds (1-60,def=5 dec) : Max retry count for tape errors (0-10,def=3 dec) : uSec Delay between DMA bursts (4/8,def=4) : Adaptive DMA threshold (1-7,def=4 dec) : Tape Drive Speed thousands of bytes/second (0-65535,def=625 dec) : Support? 800 BPI Density (Y/N,def=N) : Support 1600 BPI Density (Y/N,def=Y) : Support 6250 BPI Density (Y/N,def=Y) : ? "def=" means that this is the currently stored value. ? Any ideas what might be the problem here? ? Thanks alot for any hints in advance ! ? Best regards, Pierre ? ?------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 14 12:03:38 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:03:38 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: , <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net>, , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , , Message-ID: ---snip--- > > > > > Not really. Keep in mind that the average person considers any computer > over 5 years old to be totally unusable junk. > > g. > > The problem is the software becomes obsolete in 5 years. This like the tax programs and such constantly require new OSs or hardware. New OSs don't have drivers for older hardware. For many large server farms, it isn't economical to run hardware that is more than 3 years old. New equipment pays for itself in power used alone. Many new components are being designed with 5 year half life as the target. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 14 12:12:36 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 11:12:36 -0600 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BED8484.3030003@jetnet.ab.ca> Gene Buckle wrote: >> > Not really. Keep in mind that the average person considers any computer -----------------------------------------^ME > over 5 years old to be totally unusable junk. ----------^Min-------------------^H^H^H^H^H > g. Ben. > With apple now doing intel processers, that could be 5 seconds soon. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 14 11:44:14 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:44:14 +0100 Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa><20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net><015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <664BBC66-8A0F-4A0A-B19B-02D5317AB9B4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 11:00 PM Subject: Re: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > On May 13, 2010, at 5:18 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Actually, what I meant (and didn't say) is that a "hello world" > > program in > > HTML these days takes no code at all, other than the text "hello > > world"! > > I just tested this on Firefox 2 before posting this reply. It seems > > that > > some (all?) *current-ish* (giving myself some room to move there!) > > browsers > > don't need the intro and outro HTML tags (e.g. HTML and BODY). > > I don't recall any web browser ever actually requiring that in > order to spit out text. > So why do we have them? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri May 14 12:35:05 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:35:05 -0700 Subject: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... In-Reply-To: <877073.84585.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <877073.84585.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 9:17 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hopefully, somebody can help me out there... > Lately, I?hooked?a M2442AC (which is basically the M2442A with an extra buffer) to a QT13-type coupler in a?microVAX > > Does anybody uses such a drive/controller combination and give me some help regarding the settings ? I have a 2444AC that I have successfully used with a QT13 to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E on a PDP-11/73. I'm pretty sure I ran the full on-board QT13 tape write/read diagnostics on a scratch tape without any problems at some point. I might have time this weekend to hook the system back up and capture the QT13 configuration and diagnostic output from my system. -Glen From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 14 12:39:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:39:42 -0400 Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa><20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net><015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <664BBC66-8A0F-4A0A-B19B-02D5317AB9B4@neurotica.com> <00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <7902695A-9CB8-4A1D-9473-0AE5B2ED4C5B@neurotica.com> On May 14, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >>> Actually, what I meant (and didn't say) is that a "hello world" >>> program in >>> HTML these days takes no code at all, other than the text "hello >>> world"! >>> I just tested this on Firefox 2 before posting this reply. It seems >>> that >>> some (all?) *current-ish* (giving myself some room to move there!) >>> browsers >>> don't need the intro and outro HTML tags (e.g. HTML and BODY). >> >> I don't recall any web browser ever actually requiring that in >> order to spit out text. > > So why do we have them? Well, BODY is needed to differentiate from HEAD, if HEAD is present. HTML is simply used to tell the browser that this is HTML, as compared to XML or something else. The browser will typically recognize it as such (or default to handling it as such) in the absence of the HTML tag. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 14 12:52:16 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:52:16 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> , Message-ID: [shrugging as I run a few maintenance diagnostics on our ~40-year-old PDP-8/e] ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lanning [brianlanning at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 8:10 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Is it me or is it just a little odd that PJ finds it so gosh-wow > AMAZING that a 24-year-old Amiga still works? I was going to mention that. It's interesting to me that the later amigas have been actually less reliable than the 1000 because of leaking caps and that crappy battery. Cars have made it much (much) longer than that and still worked, why not computers? brian From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 14 12:59:34 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 10:59:34 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I've talked with a number of people from large technology companies who patent anything and everything just to proactively defend against such carpetbaggers. Unfortunately, then management changes, business philosophy changes and the patent thicket gets more and more dense.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 9:06 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... On 14 May 2010 at 6:16, Gene Buckle wrote: > > This is just cooler than words: > > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100513121121635 There is an increasing number of innovators who believe that the best defense against frivolous patents is to "poison the well"; that is, publish the details of your proprietary innovation, thereby making it PD, so that you can continue using it. Apparently, there are hired guns who will attempt to patent a technology that you've developed to force you out of business. If they can't patent the basic concept, they'll box you in with variations of the basic scheme. Of course, one can defend against such behavior, but patent disputes are basically tort actions, usually resulting in the party with the deepest pockets prevailing. --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Fri May 14 13:27:56 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:27:56 -0500 Subject: Longevity (Was: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 5/14/10, Brian wrote: >Cars have made it much (much) >longer than that and still worked, why not computers? Well, wait a minute, cars pretty routinely have people go under the hood and replace stuff. If you look at caps the same way you look at motor oil, the computers might deserve a little scheduled maintenance too. And not many batteries have a service life measured in decades (double-takes as he looks at his Casio wristwatch...). -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 14 13:04:16 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 19:04:16 +0100 Subject: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 References: <03ea01caee45$cd18d030$674a7090$@com> <4BE60185.3080309@snarc.net><4BE60990.1000107@snarc.net> <4BE61049.9E5EC5D0@cs.ubc.ca><4BE61128.6030809@atarimuseum.com><011c01caf074$aeb090c0$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <00c401caf393$2a2f85a0$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Sampson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2010 11:05 AM Subject: Re: Last day for John Blankenbaker's Kenbak-1 > "Andrew Burton" writes: > > > Can you supply a link to the rare Nintendo cartridge, or more info so > > I can such for it? > > That'd be one of the two copies of "Stadium Events" that have been > discovered recently. After the first one went for $13,105: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370330327400 > > another collector checked his stack of old games, and found a sealed > copy that ended up selling for $41,300: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140384097750 > Thanks. Wow, I can't believe they went for so much... even if they are a rare Bandai branded game. I don't have any NES games, or a NES, myself... yet. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri May 14 13:35:40 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:35:40 -0500 Subject: Longevity (Was: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:00 -0500 5/14/10, Brian wrote: >> >> Cars have made it much (much) >> longer than that and still worked, why not computers? > > Well, wait a minute, cars pretty routinely have people go under the hood and > replace stuff. If you look at caps the same way you look at motor oil, the > computers might deserve a little scheduled maintenance too. And not many > batteries have a service life measured in decades (double-takes as he looks > at his Casio wristwatch...). But the items that are getting replaced are the wear items. No one replaces the ECM in a car unless it breaks. Most don't. My complaint about the amiga battery wasn't so much that it wore out, but that it was soldered to the motherboard. And to add insult to injury, it was a battery type that was prone to leak long-term. Electronic systems should be designed with replaceable (without a soldering iron) batteries. With a few notable exceptions (i'm looking at you, ipod) they usually are these days. brian From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 14 14:08:08 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 20:08:08 +0100 Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa><20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net><015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><664BBC66-8A0F-4A0A-B19B-02D5317AB9B4@neurotica.com><00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> <7902695A-9CB8-4A1D-9473-0AE5B2ED4C5B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <011301caf399$2f430e30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:39 PM Subject: Re: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > On May 14, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > >>> Actually, what I meant (and didn't say) is that a "hello world" > >>> program in > >>> HTML these days takes no code at all, other than the text "hello > >>> world"! > >>> I just tested this on Firefox 2 before posting this reply. It seems > >>> that > >>> some (all?) *current-ish* (giving myself some room to move there!) > >>> browsers > >>> don't need the intro and outro HTML tags (e.g. HTML and BODY). > >> > >> I don't recall any web browser ever actually requiring that in > >> order to spit out text. > > > > So why do we have them? > > Well, BODY is needed to differentiate from HEAD, if HEAD is > present. HTML is simply used to tell the browser that this is HTML, > as compared to XML or something else. The browser will typically > recognize it as such (or default to handling it as such) in the > absence of the HTML tag. > Ahh, that makes sense, sort of. HEAD should have a matching closing tag though, which would still render the BODY tag useless. Unless the BODY tag was used to set-up default page colour settings. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 14 14:30:51 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:30:51 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> speaking of ol' technology... I guess they don't look out their window much, there's a 25yr old spacecraft, called the Space Shuttle, that just launched about 1hr ago. =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 14 14:42:09 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:42:09 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Roganti" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 3:30 PM Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... > speaking of ol' technology... > I guess they don't look out their window much, > there's a 25yr old spacecraft, called the Space Shuttle, that just > launched about 1hr ago. > > =Dan > You mean the ones that get broken down and rebuilt after every mission (which lasts what a week)? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 14 15:14:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:14:00 -0400 Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <011301caf399$2f430e30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa><20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net><015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><664BBC66-8A0F-4A0A-B19B-02D5317AB9B4@neurotica.com><00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> <7902695A-9CB8-4A1D-9473-0AE5B2ED4C5B@neurotica.com> <011301caf399$2f430e30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BEDAF08.4050403@neurotica.com> On 5/14/10 3:08 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:39 PM > Subject: Re: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > > >> On May 14, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >>>>> Actually, what I meant (and didn't say) is that a "hello world" >>>>> program in >>>>> HTML these days takes no code at all, other than the text "hello >>>>> world"! >>>>> I just tested this on Firefox 2 before posting this reply. It seems >>>>> that >>>>> some (all?) *current-ish* (giving myself some room to move there!) >>>>> browsers >>>>> don't need the intro and outro HTML tags (e.g. HTML and BODY). >>>> >>>> I don't recall any web browser ever actually requiring that in >>>> order to spit out text. >>> >>> So why do we have them? >> >> Well, BODY is needed to differentiate from HEAD, if HEAD is >> present. HTML is simply used to tell the browser that this is HTML, >> as compared to XML or something else. The browser will typically >> recognize it as such (or default to handling it as such) in the >> absence of the HTML tag. >> > > Ahh, that makes sense, sort of. HEAD should have a matching closing tag > though, which would still render the BODY tag useless. Unless the BODY tag > was used to set-up default page colour settings. Well it's still useful from a cleanliness and symmetry perspective. Having stuff enclosed with but followed by unencapsulated body text is kinda ugly, IMO. Know what I mean? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 14 15:13:49 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:13:49 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> Message-ID: <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Roganti" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 3:30 PM > Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... > > >> speaking of ol' technology... >> I guess they don't look out their window much, >> there's a 25yr old spacecraft, called the Space Shuttle, that just >> launched about 1hr ago. >> >> =Dan >> > > You mean the ones that get broken down and rebuilt after every mission > (which lasts what a week)? um, call me in about 20yrs when you have your space shuttle ready with the same mission requirements that doesn't end simply with a vehicle with rockets strapped to your ass for a joy ride in space. Then we'll see how this happens to be the most sophisticated aerospace vehicle to this _date_. Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features and requirements yet, hmmm? =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 14 15:18:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:18:21 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> On 5/14/10 4:13 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > um, call me in about 20yrs when you have your space shuttle ready with > the same mission requirements that doesn't end simply with a vehicle > with rockets strapped to your ass for a joy ride in space. > Then we'll see how this happens to be the most sophisticated aerospace > vehicle to this _date_. > Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features > and requirements yet, hmmm? We'd certainly have one if the damn funding didn't get yanked. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 15:22:04 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:22:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> <4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't seem as though the Ares I was universally praised within NASA. ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 3:18:21 PM Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... On 5/14/10 4:13 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > um, call me in about 20yrs when you have your space shuttle ready with > the same mission requirements that doesn't end simply with a vehicle > with rockets strapped to your ass for a joy ride in space. > Then we'll see how this happens to be the most sophisticated aerospace > vehicle to this _date_. > Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features > and requirements yet, hmmm? We'd certainly have one if the damn funding didn't get yanked. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 14 15:32:08 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:32:08 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BEDB348.7050808@gmail.com> Dan Roganti wrote: > um, call me in about 20yrs when you have your space shuttle ready with > the same mission requirements that doesn't end simply with a vehicle > with rockets strapped to your ass for a joy ride in space. > Then we'll see how this happens to be the most sophisticated aerospace > vehicle to this _date_. > Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features > and requirements yet, hmmm? They can, they're just not willing to invest that kind of money. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 14 15:37:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:37:02 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> <4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com> I was talking about Venturestar. Is anyone really suggesting that we lack the ability to design something now that we designed 35 years ago? That's pretty silly. -Dave On 5/14/10 4:22 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't seem as though the Ares I was universally praised within NASA. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave McGuire > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 3:18:21 PM > Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... > > On 5/14/10 4:13 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: >> um, call me in about 20yrs when you have your space shuttle ready with >> the same mission requirements that doesn't end simply with a vehicle >> with rockets strapped to your ass for a joy ride in space. >> Then we'll see how this happens to be the most sophisticated aerospace >> vehicle to this _date_. >> Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features >> and requirements yet, hmmm? > > We'd certainly have one if the damn funding didn't get yanked. > > -Dave > > -- Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 15:42:42 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:42:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> <4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Boy, that's digging back a ways. Last I'd seen about Venturestar was about 10 years ago. ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 3:37:02 PM Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... I was talking about Venturestar. Is anyone really suggesting that we lack the ability to design something now that we designed 35 years ago? That's pretty silly. -Dave On 5/14/10 4:22 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't seem as though the Ares I was universally praised within NASA. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave McGuire > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 3:18:21 PM > Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... > > On 5/14/10 4:13 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: >> um, call me in about 20yrs when you have your space shuttle ready with >> the same mission requirements that doesn't end simply with a vehicle >> with rockets strapped to your ass for a joy ride in space. >> Then we'll see how this happens to be the most sophisticated aerospace >> vehicle to this _date_. >> Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features >> and requirements yet, hmmm? > > We'd certainly have one if the damn funding didn't get yanked. > > -Dave > > -- Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 14 15:51:47 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:51:47 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> <4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com> <168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> Yep, and it'd probably have been flying for a few years now if it hadn't been cut, thus retiring our fantastic-but-friggin-ancient shuttles that much earlier. -Dave On 5/14/10 4:42 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > Boy, that's digging back a ways. Last I'd seen about Venturestar was about 10 years ago. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dave McGuire > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 3:37:02 PM > Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... > > > I was talking about Venturestar. Is anyone really suggesting that we > lack the ability to design something now that we designed 35 years ago? > That's pretty silly. > > -Dave > > On 5/14/10 4:22 PM, geoffrey oltmans wrote: >> Maybe, maybe not. It doesn't seem as though the Ares I was universally praised within NASA. >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Dave McGuire >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 3:18:21 PM >> Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... >> >> On 5/14/10 4:13 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: >>> um, call me in about 20yrs when you have your space shuttle ready with >>> the same mission requirements that doesn't end simply with a vehicle >>> with rockets strapped to your ass for a joy ride in space. >>> Then we'll see how this happens to be the most sophisticated aerospace >>> vehicle to this _date_. >>> Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features >>> and requirements yet, hmmm? >> >> We'd certainly have one if the damn funding didn't get yanked. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri May 14 15:58:13 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 13:58:13 -0700 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... Message-ID: I don't know if anyone on the list will care of not, but I just purchased a classic IBM PC (original model 5150) with a monochrome card and monitor for $45 on EBay. According to the seller, it was in storage at a museum for 18 years. They pulled it out, dusted it and it booted DOS right away. It's a dual-floppy model. I won't know more until it arrives, but it was sitting at zero bids until I bid on it with < 15 minutes left in the auction. The description the seller had used was a bit misleading and seemed to imply only the monitor was for sale, but I confirmed it was the entire system. I thought that was a pretty good deal, considering how much I paid for my first IBM PC back in 1983 or so. :) After that, I was at Weird Stuff Warehouse and they were asking $100 just for the monochrome monitor! But, while there, I did pick up some software bargains: A sealed copy of CA-CommonView (C++ GUI Library) for OS/2 for $3 and a copy of SCO Unixware 7 (appears complete) for $5. I love Weird Stuff! Feel free to ignore this if it's too off-topic for the list. :) Mark From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 14 16:03:50 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:03:50 -0400 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Davidson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 4:58 PM Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... After that, I was at Weird > Stuff Warehouse and they were asking $100 just for the monochrome > monitor! But, while there, I did pick up some software bargains: A > sealed copy of CA-CommonView (C++ GUI Library) for OS/2 for $3 and a > copy of SCO Unixware 7 (appears complete) for $5. I love Weird Stuff! > > Feel free to ignore this if it's too off-topic for the list. :) > > Mark The software sounds nice (thrift store like pricing), do they have a large selection there? From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 14 16:07:14 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:07:14 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 4:51 PM Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... > > Yep, and it'd probably have been flying for a few years now if it hadn't > been cut, thus retiring our fantastic-but-friggin-ancient shuttles that > much earlier. > > -Dave > Rockets are just fine for launching stuff into LEO, cheaper too. About the only thing I can think of the shuttles were great at was sending people to fix stuff in orbit (Hubbell telescope). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 14 16:12:55 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:12:55 -0600 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: > Rockets are just fine for launching stuff into LEO, cheaper too. About > the only thing I can think of the shuttles were great at was sending > people to fix stuff in orbit (Hubbell telescope). > More like politics. You would not want somebody going into space with a product faster than US jets. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri May 14 16:14:09 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 14:14:09 -0700 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Davidson" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 4:58 PM > Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... > > > After that, I was at Weird >> >> Stuff Warehouse and they were asking $100 just for the monochrome >> monitor! ?But, while there, I did pick up some software bargains: ?A >> sealed copy of CA-CommonView (C++ GUI Library) for OS/2 for $3 and a >> copy of SCO Unixware 7 (appears complete) for $5. ?I love Weird Stuff! >> >> Feel free to ignore this if it's too off-topic for the list. :) >> >> Mark > > The software sounds nice (thrift store like pricing), do they have a large > selection there? What they have varies greatly... it depends on when you go. Let me think... while I was there I saw (among many other boxes) a complete copy of dBase IV, a boxed set with Tornado OS 1.0 (I believe that's for Real-time work, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong), a boxed copy of Paradox 3.5, Delphi Client/Server 3, SCO OpenServer, several boxes of Intersolv PVCS, Adobe Type Library boxes... oh, the list could go on for a while. One thing that I like is that several of the boxes (including one I bought) had NO price, so they asked me to pick what I wanted to pay. I figured $5 was a good price for copy of SCO UnixWare 7.1. :) Some of the items (like the CA-CommonView box) had been sitting there for a while, so I think that's why it was $3. It was still in the original (as far as I could tell) plastic wrap. I opened it up after I bought it and sure enough, everything inside was still sealed... manuals, diskette holder, everything. The guy at the cash register said he shudders when he thinks about the original cost of some of the items they sell. Now I just need to find a copy of IBM C Set/2 and I'll be happier. To be more specific, they have 6 or 8 cases, each with 4 or 5 shelves, filled with software boxes. I can take and post some pictures next time I go. Mark From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 14 16:54:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 14:54:55 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BED643F.32382.15E85C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2010 at 10:59, Ian King wrote: > I've talked with a number of people from large technology companies > who patent anything and everything just to proactively defend against > such carpetbaggers. Unfortunately, then management changes, business > philosophy changes and the patent thicket gets more and more dense.... And sadly, the USPTO pretty much asserts that it can no longer examine patent applications with any scrutiny. I am aware of at least one patent granted in the last decade for a perpetual-motion machine, for example. More lucre for the lawyers, I guess. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 14 16:59:05 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 23:59:05 +0200 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> References: <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20100514235905.d3d197be.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 14 May 2010 16:13:49 -0400 Dan Roganti wrote: [Space Shuttle] > Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features > and requirements yet, hmmm? \begin{troll} Well. Everybody else realized that a "Space Shuttle" type of space vehicle is overcomplicated, overengineered, way to complex and thus way to expensive to build and maintain. So everybody else has given up on "Space Shuttels" even before building one. Except the "Amis" because they needed to show how brigt they are. And of course the Sowjets - prurely for political reasons. (The Amis have one. So wee need one too. And Buran was (still)born.) \end{troll} -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 14 17:05:45 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:05:45 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BED643F.32382.15E85C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4BED643F.32382.15E85C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck That is great. That means that all the flim-flam men selling such machines are in violation of that patent. I hope the fellow that has this patent is properly defending it. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 14 May 2010 at 10:59, Ian King wrote: > > > I've talked with a number of people from large technology companies > > who patent anything and everything just to proactively defend against > > such carpetbaggers. Unfortunately, then management changes, business > > philosophy changes and the patent thicket gets more and more dense.... > > And sadly, the USPTO pretty much asserts that it can no longer > examine patent applications with any scrutiny. I am aware of at > least one patent granted in the last decade for a perpetual-motion > machine, for example. > > More lucre for the lawyers, I guess. > > --Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 17:06:12 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I don't think any of the rockets have the heavy lift capability of the shuttle, do they? At least to LEO. ________________________________ From: Ben To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 4:12:55 PM Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... Teo Zenios wrote: > Rockets are just fine for launching stuff into LEO, cheaper too. About > the only thing I can think of the shuttles were great at was sending > people to fix stuff in orbit (Hubbell telescope). > More like politics. You would not want somebody going into space with a product faster than US jets. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 17:10:59 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <20100514235905.d3d197be.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> <20100514235905.d3d197be.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <902683.76140.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'm thinking the Soviets had more pressing issues than Buran by the time it was cancelled. ________________________________ From: Jochen Kunz To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 4:59:05 PM Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... On Fri, 14 May 2010 16:13:49 -0400 Dan Roganti wrote: [Space Shuttle] > Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features > and requirements yet, hmmm? \begin{troll} Well. Everybody else realized that a "Space Shuttle" type of space vehicle is overcomplicated, overengineered, way to complex and thus way to expensive to build and maintain. So everybody else has given up on "Space Shuttels" even before building one. Except the "Amis" because they needed to show how brigt they are. And of course the Sowjets - prurely for political reasons. (The Amis have one. So wee need one too. And Buran was (still)born.) \end{troll} -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 17:13:26 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <20100514235905.d3d197be.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net> <20100514235905.d3d197be.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <219452.15248.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> BTW, who else even had a decent space program around the time that the Shuttle was being developed? Oh yeah, that's right... just the Americans and the Russians. ________________________________ From: Jochen Kunz To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Fri, May 14, 2010 4:59:05 PM Subject: Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... On Fri, 14 May 2010 16:13:49 -0400 Dan Roganti wrote: [Space Shuttle] > Gee, how is it that nobody can still build something with such features > and requirements yet, hmmm? \begin{troll} Well. Everybody else realized that a "Space Shuttle" type of space vehicle is overcomplicated, overengineered, way to complex and thus way to expensive to build and maintain. So everybody else has given up on "Space Shuttels" even before building one. Except the "Amis" because they needed to show how brigt they are. And of course the Sowjets - prurely for political reasons. (The Amis have one. So wee need one too. And Buran was (still)born.) \end{troll} -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 14 17:21:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:21:22 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <219452.15248.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <20100514235905.d3d197be.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <219452.15248.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BED6A72.31061.176BD3A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2010 at 15:13, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > BTW, who else even had a decent space program around the time that the > Shuttle was being developed? Oh yeah, that's right... just the > Americans and the Russians. ESA? (European Space Agency, established in 1975). (Stepping back from the resulting flames) --Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri May 14 17:30:06 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 22:30:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is dangerously off topic again, but what the hell... On Fri, 14 May 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I don't think any of the rockets have the heavy lift capability of the > shuttle, do they? At least to LEO. According to wikipedia, for currently operational vehicles: Vehicle/tonnes to LEO Shuttle/24.4 Delta IV Heavy/22.9 Proton/21.6 Ariane 5ES/21 so there are 3 that are capable of the same ballpak lift. But of course the heaviest launcher ever to fly was the Saturn V, with 119 tonnes to LEO, far surpassing the shuttle. Alexey From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 14 17:40:28 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100514153912.J33126@shell.lmi.net> > > Is it me or is it just a little odd that PJ finds it so gosh-wow > > AMAZING that a 24-year-old Amiga still works? On Fri, 14 May 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > I was going to mention that. It's interesting to me that the later > amigas have been actually less reliable than the 1000 because of > leaking caps and that crappy battery. Cars have made it much (much) > longer than that and still worked, why not computers? . . . and the current problems with the Antikytherian device were due to poor storage conditions From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 14 17:42:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 15:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: <4BEBFF4E.1040702@att.net> <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100514154159.L33126@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 May 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > I think early surface mount components had some reliability issues. > Either that or cheaper parts were speced. After all, everyone will > have upgraded their computer long before then. Why would a computer > ever need to last more than five years? because I hope to live longer than that From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 14 18:07:06 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa><20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net><015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <664BBC66-8A0F-4A0A-B19B-02D5317AB9B4@neurotica.com> <00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <20100514160513.K33126@shell.lmi.net> > > > don't need the intro and outro HTML tags (e.g. HTML and BODY). > > I don't recall any web browser ever actually requiring that in > > order to spit out text. On Fri, 14 May 2010, Andrew Burton wrote: > So why do we have them? To confirm to the display software that the tags are to be treated as if they were out of band, rather than as part of the content. But that is now the default. From hachti at hachti.de Fri May 14 18:26:57 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 01:26:57 +0200 Subject: Omnibus memory available Message-ID: <4BEDDC41.4070007@hachti.de> Hi folks, any need for pdp8/e Omnibus memory? Talking about ====> G104/H220/G227 (4K system) board triples without top connectors The stuff is offered as tested working. Not something "might have been pulled from a working machine (saw some lights when applying power)" or "pulled from a working system a few years ago" or "was ok in 1983". I'm checking the boards using the extended memory exerciser maindec-08-dhkma-c in my pdp8/e test machine. Right now. 4 top connectors are needed for each triple. Sorry, but I cannot provide those at the moment. Selling that on behalf of someone else. I promised to convert it to some $$$ for him. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From chris at mainecoon.com Fri May 14 18:36:19 2010 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 16:36:19 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5CDF4F0E-4FF5-4DFB-BBCE-6957D81E6974@mainecoon.com> On May 14, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:\ > According to wikipedia, for currently operational vehicles: > > Vehicle/tonnes to LEO > Shuttle/24.4 > Delta IV Heavy/22.9 Delta IV heavy is 22.5 metric tons to 51.6 degree LEO, 21.5 metric tons to 90 degree LEO, 10.75 metric tons to GTO (1500 m/s to GEO) or 12.5 metric tons to GTO (1800 m/s to GEO). STS is 24.4 metric tons to 28.5 degree LEO, 12.5 metric tons to 90 degree LEO, 2.27 tons to GEO. Compared to the big boys of the EELV family the STS is a wimp, largely because it's so damn massive in terms of dead weight. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 14 18:37:36 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:37:36 -0600 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 14 May 2010 13:58:13 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Mark Davidson writes: > I don't know if anyone on the list will care of not, but I just > purchased a classic IBM PC (original model 5150) with a monochrome > card and monitor for $45 on EBay. Good for you! Another successful rescue :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri May 14 19:00:36 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 01:00:36 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? Message-ID: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th of June at Bletchley Park? I'm toying with the idea of booking some time off work and going down on the train for either the Saturday or the Sunday; I'd rather like to see the talks by Sophie Wilson and Tony Sale, although it'd be nice to meet up with a few of the UK-based classiccmp'ers as well. The mailing list is fine, but it'd be nice to put names to faces :) I also figure the "VCF Flea Market" might be a good way to get my sticky paws on some 8-inch floppy drives, discs and possibly an MFM hard drive and controller pair or two. I still don't have a working 8in drive to test the DiscFerret with... Speaking of which, I could be persuaded to bring the current "circuit test" prototype down with me, though booking a table will probably be a real pig at this late stage, and I'm willing to wager it's probably going to be too expensive for my budget anyway (I'm saving my last ?150 to get a run of prototype PCBs made!)... Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 14 19:14:37 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:14:37 -0600 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win ... space In-Reply-To: <5CDF4F0E-4FF5-4DFB-BBCE-6957D81E6974@mainecoon.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <5CDF4F0E-4FF5-4DFB-BBCE-6957D81E6974@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <4BEDE76D.3000504@jetnet.ab.ca> Christian Kennedy wrote: >> Vehicle/tonnes to LEO Shuttle/24.4 Delta IV Heavy/22.9 > > Delta IV heavy is 22.5 metric tons to 51.6 degree LEO, 21.5 metric > tons to 90 degree LEO, 10.75 metric tons to GTO (1500 m/s to GEO) or > 12.5 metric tons to GTO (1800 m/s to GEO). > > STS is 24.4 metric tons to 28.5 degree LEO, 12.5 metric tons to 90 > degree LEO, 2.27 tons to GEO. > > Compared to the big boys of the EELV family the STS is a wimp, > largely because it's so damn massive in terms of dead weight. > I have always favored a piggy back shuttle/transport into space. I favor say 3000 lbs into space, with a re-usable shuttle. From there you bootstrap yourself into space. Then again I figured we would have flying cars by 2001. :) Ben. PS. Only one pilot, two is not going make it safer. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 14 19:28:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 17:28:18 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win ... space In-Reply-To: <4BEDE76D.3000504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <5CDF4F0E-4FF5-4DFB-BBCE-6957D81E6974@mainecoon.com>, <4BEDE76D.3000504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BED8832.16709.1EAF28E@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2010 at 18:14, Ben wrote: > I have always favored a piggy back shuttle/transport into space. > I favor say 3000 lbs into space, with a re-usable shuttle. From > there you bootstrap yourself into space. Then again I figured we > would have flying cars by 2001. :) Perhaps we should ask the Duchy of Grand Fenwick to show us how to get back to the moon. After all, Professor Kokintz did it in 1963. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 14 18:58:13 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 00:58:13 +0100 Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa><20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net><015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><664BBC66-8A0F-4A0A-B19B-02D5317AB9B4@neurotica.com><00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> <7902695A-9CB8-4A1D-9473-0AE5B2ED4C5B@neurotica.com><011301caf399$2f430e30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BEDAF08.4050403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <018b01caf3c7$e3d48e40$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 9:14 PM Subject: Re: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > On 5/14/10 3:08 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dave McGuire" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:39 PM > > Subject: Re: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > > > > > >> On May 14, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > >>>>> Actually, what I meant (and didn't say) is that a "hello world" > >>>>> program in > >>>>> HTML these days takes no code at all, other than the text "hello > >>>>> world"! > >>>>> I just tested this on Firefox 2 before posting this reply. It seems > >>>>> that > >>>>> some (all?) *current-ish* (giving myself some room to move there!) > >>>>> browsers > >>>>> don't need the intro and outro HTML tags (e.g. HTML and BODY). > >>>> > >>>> I don't recall any web browser ever actually requiring that in > >>>> order to spit out text. > >>> > >>> So why do we have them? > >> > >> Well, BODY is needed to differentiate from HEAD, if HEAD is > >> present. HTML is simply used to tell the browser that this is HTML, > >> as compared to XML or something else. The browser will typically > >> recognize it as such (or default to handling it as such) in the > >> absence of the HTML tag. > >> > > > > Ahh, that makes sense, sort of. HEAD should have a matching closing tag > > though, which would still render the BODY tag useless. Unless the BODY tag > > was used to set-up default page colour settings. > > Well it's still useful from a cleanliness and symmetry perspective. > Having stuff enclosed with but followed by unencapsulated > body text is kinda ugly, IMO. Know what I mean? > I guess. Noone (except maybe software) bothers encapsulating paragraphs (P tag) anymore though, with the P tag only used at the start of paragraphs. Or atleast in the code I have seen. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 14 20:01:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 21:01:35 -0400 Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) In-Reply-To: <018b01caf3c7$e3d48e40$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa><20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net><015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><664BBC66-8A0F-4A0A-B19B-02D5317AB9B4@neurotica.com><00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> <7902695A-9CB8-4A1D-9473-0AE5B2ED4C5B@neurotica.com><011301caf399$2f430e30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BEDAF08.4050403@neurotica.com> <018b01caf3c7$e3d48e40$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BEDF26F.10003@neurotica.com> On 5/14/10 7:58 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave McGuire" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 9:14 PM > Subject: Re: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > > >> On 5/14/10 3:08 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Dave McGuire" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 6:39 PM >>> Subject: Re: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) >>> >>> >>>> On May 14, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >>>>>>> Actually, what I meant (and didn't say) is that a "hello world" >>>>>>> program in >>>>>>> HTML these days takes no code at all, other than the text "hello >>>>>>> world"! >>>>>>> I just tested this on Firefox 2 before posting this reply. It seems >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> some (all?) *current-ish* (giving myself some room to move there!) >>>>>>> browsers >>>>>>> don't need the intro and outro HTML tags (e.g. HTML and BODY). >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't recall any web browser ever actually requiring that in >>>>>> order to spit out text. >>>>> >>>>> So why do we have them? >>>> >>>> Well, BODY is needed to differentiate from HEAD, if HEAD is >>>> present. HTML is simply used to tell the browser that this is HTML, >>>> as compared to XML or something else. The browser will typically >>>> recognize it as such (or default to handling it as such) in the >>>> absence of the HTML tag. >>>> >>> >>> Ahh, that makes sense, sort of. HEAD should have a matching closing tag >>> though, which would still render the BODY tag useless. Unless the BODY > tag >>> was used to set-up default page colour settings. >> >> Well it's still useful from a cleanliness and symmetry perspective. >> Having stuff enclosed with but followed by unencapsulated >> body text is kinda ugly, IMO. Know what I mean? >> > > I guess. Noone (except maybe software) bothers encapsulating paragraphs (P > tag) anymore though, with the P tag only used at the start of paragraphs. Or > atleast in the code I have seen. It's actually kinda the opposite of that.

effectively didn't *have* a closing tag many years ago; nobody ever did it. Only with the XHTML stuff is there more of an insistence in opens with matching closes. (not to be contrary, but..) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 20:29:11 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 20:29:11 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BED6A72.31061.176BD3A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100514235905.d3d197be.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, <219452.15248.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BED6A72.31061.176BD3A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <53D671CB-7CC8-4E06-B15B-6FC87A0C3CAF@bellsouth.net> Did they a manned space program that didn't rely on riding in someone else's craft? Oh wait, no they didn't. ;) On May 14, 2010, at 5:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 May 2010 at 15:13, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > >> BTW, who else even had a decent space program around the time that the >> Shuttle was being developed? Oh yeah, that's right... just the >> Americans and the Russians. > > ESA? (European Space Agency, established in 1975). > > (Stepping back from the resulting flames) > > --Chuck > From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 20:30:13 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 20:30:13 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net> Yeah, I've seen that before too. It's interesting that the ISS building program was slated to end the same time as the last shuttle launches. Maybe nothing else can carry as bulky a load? Dunno. On May 14, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > This is dangerously off topic again, but what the hell... > > On Fri, 14 May 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > >> I don't think any of the rockets have the heavy lift capability of the shuttle, do they? At least to LEO. > > According to wikipedia, for currently operational vehicles: > > Vehicle/tonnes to LEO > Shuttle/24.4 > Delta IV Heavy/22.9 > Proton/21.6 > Ariane 5ES/21 > > so there are 3 that are capable of the same ballpak lift. But of course the heaviest launcher ever to fly was the Saturn V, with 119 tonnes to LEO, far surpassing the shuttle. > > Alexey From ken at seefried.com Fri May 14 20:31:07 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 01:31:07 +0000 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... Message-ID: PJ writes an unabashedly fawning article highlighting the value of old computers and the classic computer community in the context of patent litigation, and predictably that community shits on her because she doesn't have a dedicated practitioner of obscure arts understanding of how 20 year old computers can be preserved. Somehow, I think a paralegal (hint: non-technical) in her (I think) 30s not steeped in computer history beyond the SCO case can be given a pass there, but clearly some of you, the predictable ones, have different ideas. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 14 20:53:24 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 18:53:24 -0700 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll...) In-Reply-To: <874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com> On 05/14/2010 06:30 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Yeah, I've seen that before too. It's interesting that the ISS building program was slated to end the same time as the last shuttle launches. Other way around. NASA wanted to retire the Space Shuttle to work on a new system, and decided to do it as soon as the ISS was complete. The issue was that Congress wouldn't give them enough budget to continue flying the Space Shuttle and in parallel develop its replacement. Each Space Shuttle mission costs around $750 million (private estimate, the published NASA estimate is $450 million but is not generally considered credible). It seems to me that they should have kept flying but scaled back to a schedule of four flights per year, while developing the replacement. A really big problem is that once they committed to shutting down the Space Shuttle program, it became all but impossible (prohibitively expensive even by Congressional standards) to extend the program beyond the scheduled shutdown. > Maybe nothing else can carry as bulky a load? Dunno. > AFAICT, a Delta IV Heavy would be perfectly suitable for launching ISS modules. It's not suitable for launching astronauts. One of the possible alternatives to Ares I was upgrading the Delta IV Heavy to be man-rated. NASA decided against that for political reasons; my friends who are aerospace engineers tell me that from a technical point of view it would have been better in every way than Ares I. Eric From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri May 14 21:00:58 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 21:00:58 -0500 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll...) In-Reply-To: <4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net> <4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On May 14, 2010, at 8:53 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Maybe nothing else can carry as bulky a load? Dunno. >> > AFAICT, a Delta IV Heavy would be perfectly suitable for launching ISS modules. It's not suitable for launching astronauts. One of the possible alternatives to Ares I was upgrading the Delta IV Heavy to be man-rated. NASA decided against that for political reasons; my friends who are aerospace engineers tell me that from a technical point of view it would have been better in every way than Ares I. > I agree... seems like Delta IV would be a perfectly suitable replacement if they can man rate it. Given its track record it seems likely. One of the reasons detractors use against Delta IV vs. a NASA alternative is the crew escape/safety systems. Yeah, right... like the Shuttle ever had a remotely workable crew escape system. I live in Huntsville. Here there was a lot of outcry as you can imagine when the Obama Administration's plans to axe Constellation came out. Sounds like the Ares V may still have a future... at least for now. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 14 21:15:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 19:15:11 -0700 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <53D671CB-7CC8-4E06-B15B-6FC87A0C3CAF@bellsouth.net> References: , <4BED6A72.31061.176BD3A@cclist.sydex.com>, <53D671CB-7CC8-4E06-B15B-6FC87A0C3CAF@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4BEDA13F.21623.24CCDE3@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2010 at 20:29, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Did they a manned space program that didn't rely on riding in someone > else's craft? Oh wait, no they didn't. ;) No, the honor there would also go to Grand Fenwick, who sent a manned mission to the moon 6 years before the US. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 14 21:47:47 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 19:47:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 May 2010, geoffrey oltmans wrote: > I don't think any of the rockets have the heavy lift capability of the > shuttle, do they? At least to LEO. AFAIK, Energia is king of heavy lift. However, my data is kind of old. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 15 00:03:01 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 23:03:01 -0600 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BEDA13F.21623.24CCDE3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BED6A72.31061.176BD3A@cclist.sydex.com>, <53D671CB-7CC8-4E06-B15B-6FC87A0C3CAF@bellsouth.net> <4BEDA13F.21623.24CCDE3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BEE2B05.6080900@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 May 2010 at 20:29, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > >> Did they a manned space program that didn't rely on riding in someone >> else's craft? Oh wait, no they didn't. ;) > > No, the honor there would also go to Grand Fenwick, who sent a manned > mission to the moon 6 years before the US. But is that wine bottle still in orbit? > --Chuck > Did atomic engines ( ignoring political and explosion problems) ever make it to the 'practical' stage, if we are talking heavy lift here. From hachti at hachti.de Sat May 15 01:41:52 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 08:41:52 +0200 Subject: RK05 disk on eBay Message-ID: <4BEE4230.40907@hachti.de> RK05 12 sector disk pack. New and in the box. Yes, it's me selling them. No, not sorry for posting here - selling for a third party. Ebay No. 190397088171 Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190397088171 Regards, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Sat May 15 04:22:40 2010 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 09:22:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AW: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... In-Reply-To: References: <877073.84585.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10437.99049.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi Glen, thanks for looking up the settings for me, it would be of great help ! In order to help you quickly : You can find the procedure to start the QT13-diagnostics on page 2-13 of the QT13 manual (to be found on bitsavers.org). Even the switch settings can be read out via the diagnostics menu, so no need to open up your system. Best regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Glen Slick An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Gesendet: Freitag, den 14. Mai 2010, 19:35:05 Uhr Betreff: Re: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 9:17 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hopefully, somebody can help me out there... > Lately, I hooked a M2442AC (which is basically the M2442A with an extra buffer) to a QT13-type coupler in a microVAX > > Does anybody uses such a drive/controller combination and give me some help regarding the settings ? I have a 2444AC that I have successfully used with a QT13 to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E on a PDP-11/73. I'm pretty sure I ran the full on-board QT13 tape write/read diagnostics on a scratch tape without any problems at some point. I might have time this weekend to hook the system back up and capture the QT13 configuration and diagnostic output from my system. -Glen From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 09:25:58 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 07:25:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <715072.50102.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> A fairly recent study has shown that any reusable launch system would have to be used at a rate around 100 times that of the shuttle to be economically advantageous over an expendable system. I wonder how they missed that calculation back in the 70s? Each shuttle mission, no matter what it's carrying, costs as much or more than an ambitious multi-year robotics mission to Mars. And the $150 billion orbiting hotel in search of a real mission that sucks funds away from real space science, the ISS, should be disassembled and de-orbited immediately before it sucks even more money away from the robotic exploration of our solar system. Robotic missions not only generate vastly more scientific payback per dollar spent, but they don't risk lives and they develop robotic and AI technologies that are potentially useful here on Earth, too. Here's an interesting 1974 popular Science article on what a bargain the Space Shuttle would be: http://books.google.com/books?id=tE0idc3G364C&lpg=PA70&ots=oONm3QBOYm&dq=100%20times%20reusable%20spacecraft&pg=PA70#v=onepage&q=100%20times%20reusable%20spacecraft&f=false From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 15 12:59:45 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 10:59:45 -0700 Subject: EECO PTR tech info Message-ID: <4BEEE111.6080505@bitsavers.org> Does anyone have any tech info on EECO paper tape reader? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360166759118 Looked through my pile, and I don't seem to have anything on them. They're interesting because the tape guide can be set to 5/6/8 level From als at thangorodrim.de Sat May 15 13:06:55 2010 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 20:06:55 +0200 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BEE2B05.6080900@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BED6A72.31061.176BD3A@cclist.sydex.com> <53D671CB-7CC8-4E06-B15B-6FC87A0C3CAF@bellsouth.net> <4BEDA13F.21623.24CCDE3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEE2B05.6080900@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100515180655.GB30100@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 11:03:01PM -0600, Ben wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >On 14 May 2010 at 20:29, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > > > >>Did they a manned space program that didn't rely on riding in someone > >>else's craft? Oh wait, no they didn't. ;) > > > >No, the honor there would also go to Grand Fenwick, who sent a manned > >mission to the moon 6 years before the US. > > But is that wine bottle still in orbit? > > >--Chuck > > > > Did atomic engines ( ignoring political and explosion problems) > ever make it to the 'practical' stage, if we are talking heavy > lift here. AFAIK the only flying hardware of Project Orion was the dynamite powered demonstrator (as in: show that fundamental idea works). And that only achieved a few meters of flight (as planned). Nerva got several test engine working (on the ground), but where problems with long time operations. Both projects got killed long before anything flyable was on the test stands. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From rogpugh at mac.com Sat May 15 14:12:58 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 20:12:58 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BEEF23A.8050204@mac.com> On 05/15/2010 01:00, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage > Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and > 20th of June at Bletchley Park? I intend to go for one of the days, but not sure which. Is anyone interested in a car share from the South East? rog From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 15 13:24:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 19:24:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at May 14, 10 01:58:13 pm Message-ID: > > I don't know if anyone on the list will care of not, but I just > purchased a classic IBM PC (original model 5150) with a monochrome > card and monitor for $45 on EBay. According to the seller, it was in Nice!. I rememebr buying my first PC-family machine -- an IBM 5160. I wantred as much original IBM stuff as possible. The machine I bought had been upgraded -- the MDA card and floppy controller had been replaced by an all-in-one video/floppy/serial/parallel/game card (I forget the model, but it was commonly used in Opus brand PCs over here). But the seller had kept the original PBM boards and included them with the machine. Needless to say I put them back. I still have that machine, it still works. > storage at a museum for 18 years. They pulled it out, dusted it and > it booted DOS right away. It's a dual-floppy model. I really don't like this cavalier approach of getting something out of storage and powering it up without doing any tests first. But anyway... Should you need any hardware help with the machine, I have the techref... -tony > Feel free to ignore this if it's too off-topic for the list. :) Err, it's a computer. It's over 10 years old. Like it or not, the IBM PC was a significant machine. How can it possibly be off-topic? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 15 13:32:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 19:32:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 14, 10 03:05:45 pm Message-ID: > > > > Hi Chuck > That is great. That means that all the flim-flam > men selling such machines are in violation of that patent. Wouldn't that depend on how the patent is worded? If the patent is for, say, an overbalancing wheel type of perpetual motion machine, then a waterwheel driving a pump would not be in violation of it. Of course neither work, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 15 13:37:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 19:37:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 15, 10 01:00:36 am Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage=20 > Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th=20 > of June at Bletchley Park? Alas not. This is for several rasons, mostly financial. Had I heard about it early enough (why wasn't it seriously discused here) I would have tired to get along and bring one of my interesting toys. But as it is, I didn't have time to prepare anything. It would cost significant money for me to get from here to Bletchley Park, and then there's the entrance fee. I don't think it's worth it. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 15 14:49:45 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 20:49:45 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <00fc01caf467$c63bb110$52b31330$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I will be travelling from South Manchester on the Saturday just for the day. However most of my hardware is much less esoteric than most of the stuff that gets discussed here, as I am mostly interested in VAXen, and only the small ones that can fit in my house at that. So I am not planning to show anything. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philip Pemberton > Sent: 15 May 2010 01:01 > To: cctalk > Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage > Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and > 20th > of June at Bletchley Park? > > I'm toying with the idea of booking some time off work and going down > on > the train for either the Saturday or the Sunday; I'd rather like to see > the talks by Sophie Wilson and Tony Sale, although it'd be nice to meet > up with a few of the UK-based classiccmp'ers as well. The mailing list > is fine, but it'd be nice to put names to faces :) > > I also figure the "VCF Flea Market" might be a good way to get my > sticky > paws on some 8-inch floppy drives, discs and possibly an MFM hard drive > and controller pair or two. I still don't have a working 8in drive to > test the DiscFerret with... > > Speaking of which, I could be persuaded to bring the current "circuit > test" prototype down with me, though booking a table will probably be a > real pig at this late stage, and I'm willing to wager it's probably > going to be too expensive for my budget anyway (I'm saving my last ?150 > to get a run of prototype PCBs made!)... > > Cheers, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 15 12:48:47 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 18:48:47 +0100 Subject: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) References: <25626A8F-11E2-444D-91FB-4129F1A013F5@neurotica.com><011d01caf074$b1d74c30$473c5d0a@user8459cef6fa><20100510165854.X67339@shell.lmi.net><015901caf2e2$e319ccd0$09fdf93e@user8459cef6fa><664BBC66-8A0F-4A0A-B19B-02D5317AB9B4@neurotica.com><00ab01caf38a$d92e0a30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> <7902695A-9CB8-4A1D-9473-0AE5B2ED4C5B@neurotica.com><011301caf399$2f430e30$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BEDAF08.4050403@neurotica.com><018b01caf3c7$e3d48e40$5b1b5b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BEDF26F.10003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <006e01caf467$db7d20e0$3b075f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 2:01 AM Subject: Re: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > On 5/14/10 7:58 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Dave McGuire" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 9:14 PM > > Subject: Re: HTML coding ( was Re: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN) > >> Having stuff enclosed with but followed by unencapsulated > >> body text is kinda ugly, IMO. Know what I mean? > >> > > > > I guess. Noone (except maybe software) bothers encapsulating paragraphs (P > > tag) anymore though, with the P tag only used at the start of paragraphs. Or > > atleast in the code I have seen. > > It's actually kinda the opposite of that.

effectively didn't > *have* a closing tag many years ago; nobody ever did it. Only with the > XHTML stuff is there more of an insistence in opens with matching closes. > > (not to be contrary, but..) > Oh, right. I didn't know that. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 15 15:15:05 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 13:15:05 -0700 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... References: Message-ID: <4BEF00C9.116119BC@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > Mark Davidson wrote: > > I don't know if anyone on the list will care of not, but I just > > purchased a classic IBM PC (original model 5150) with a monochrome > > card and monitor for $45 on EBay. According to the seller, it was in > ... > > Feel free to ignore this if it's too off-topic for the list. :) > > Err, it's a computer. It's over 10 years old. Like it or not, the IBM PC > was a significant machine. How can it possibly be off-topic? See: satire. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 15 15:19:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 13:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100515131448.S79485@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 15 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas not. This is for several rasons, mostly financial. > Had I heard about it early enough (why wasn't it seriously discused here) > I would have tired to get along and bring one of my interesting toys. But > as it is, I didn't have time to prepare anything. It would cost > significant money for me to get from here to Bletchley Park, and then > there's the entrance fee. I don't think it's worth it. Could somebody please give Tony a ride to it? Tony, GO! You don't need to take anything. You can meet people, see what others are up to, browse the sales area, study the exhibits, and get a feel for whether it is worth chartering a lorry for next time. How much would the minimum cost to attend be? If you have a Paypal account, some of the rest of us could make small contributions towards getting you there. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat May 15 15:43:51 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 21:43:51 +0100 Subject: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: thebeginningof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 13 May 2010, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 07:22:59 -0500 > From: John Foust > Subject: Re: Greatest videogame device (was Re: An option - Re: > thebeginningof > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <201005131228.o4DCSXPC034526 at billY.EZWIND.NET> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > At 04:15 AM 5/13/2010, Roger Holmes wrote: >> To me a number is a number and that was b......t but the problem is US has a bit too much influence on broadcasting, you only have to look at the questions on the UK version of 'who wants to be a millionaire' where they asked what you would do with a 'brown betty' in a fairly low value question. > > Another phrase with a British meaning and a USAian meaning. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Betty > >> I have no problem with the many americanisms in my life but to me numbers are sacrosanct. Just because a single US journalist made a mistake in the 1930s should not make us all roll over and play dead on a matter of principal. > > Principal? Are we talking about money again, or values? There's a principle at stake! Ok so I make spelling mistakes. I meant principle not principal. English is a language generally defined by common usage not statute but if we allow that anyone can redefine some number, any number to mean something different we are on a very slippery slope leading to mayhem. Just because the numbers are ones which few people used back in the 1930 does not mean that nobody used them, otherwise they would not have existed. We now have the ludicrous situation that we have to consider when a number was used, which side of the atlantic it was said, whether it refers to monetary units or some other meaning and carry round a table in our heads of so if I read a scientific american book written in say 1920 which refers to so many billion atoms then I know it is 10^12 but a similar book written twenty years later would be 10^9 and if it was written in the UK in 1940 it meant 10^12 but if I read something written in 2000 by a BBC economic journalist about dollars or pounds or euros it means 10^9 but if the same journalist wrote about the price of a billion grammes of water he would mean 10^12 according to the BBC rules. The principle is that numbers are not context sensitive. Roger. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 15 16:06:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 22:06:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100515131448.S79485@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 15, 10 01:19:21 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 15 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Alas not. This is for several rasons, mostly financial. > > Had I heard about it early enough (why wasn't it seriously discused here) > > I would have tired to get along and bring one of my interesting toys. But > > as it is, I didn't have time to prepare anything. It would cost > > significant money for me to get from here to Bletchley Park, and then > > there's the entrance fee. I don't think it's worth it. > > Could somebody please give Tony a ride to it? > > Tony, > GO! Why? I do have other things to do. Like fixing and documenting classic computers. > > You don't need to take anything. You can meet people, see what others are Ah, but I do have things that I think would be of interest to others attending such an event and I would (albeit illogically) feel disapointed if I wasn't showing some of them. > up to, browse the sales area, study the exhibits, and get a feel for There would be little point in me looking round the stuff for sale other than to make me even more fed up. In case it's not hit you yet, money is tight. -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat May 15 16:16:15 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 22:16:15 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: I didnt know about it till this thread started, I would like to go but I too will have to think about it closer to the weekend as Im out of work at the moment. Dave Caroline On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage Computer > Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th of June at > Bletchley Park? > > I'm toying with the idea of booking some time off work and going down on the > train for either the Saturday or the Sunday; I'd rather like to see the > talks by Sophie Wilson and Tony Sale, although it'd be nice to meet up with > a few of the UK-based classiccmp'ers as well. The mailing list is fine, but > it'd be nice to put names to faces :) > > I also figure the "VCF Flea Market" might be a good way to get my sticky > paws on some 8-inch floppy drives, discs and possibly an MFM hard drive and > controller pair or two. I still don't have a working 8in drive to test the > DiscFerret with... > > Speaking of which, I could be persuaded to bring the current "circuit test" > prototype down with me, though booking a table will probably be a real pig > at this late stage, and I'm willing to wager it's probably going to be too > expensive for my budget anyway (I'm saving my last ?150 to get a run of > prototype PCBs made!)... > > Cheers, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat May 15 16:20:08 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 14:20:08 -0700 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: <4BEF00C9.116119BC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4BEF00C9.116119BC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Mark Davidson wrote: >> > I don't know if anyone on the list will care of not, but I just >> > purchased a classic IBM PC (original model 5150) with a monochrome >> > card and monitor for $45 on EBay. ?According to the seller, it was in >> ... >> > Feel free to ignore this if it's too off-topic for the list. :) >> >> Err, it's a computer. It's over 10 years old. Like it or not, the IBM PC >> was a significant machine. How can it possibly be off-topic? > > See: satire. Sorry, I should have used more emoticons. :) Mark From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat May 15 16:23:18 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 14:23:18 -0700 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I don't know if anyone on the list will care of not, but I just >> purchased a classic IBM PC (original model 5150) with a monochrome >> card and monitor for $45 on EBay. ?According to the seller, it was in > > Nice!. I rememebr buying my first PC-family machine -- an IBM 5160. I > wantred as much original IBM stuff as possible. The machine I bought had > been upgraded -- the MDA card and floppy controller had been replaced by > an all-in-one video/floppy/serial/parallel/game card (I forget the model, > but it was commonly used in Opus brand PCs over here). But the seller had > kept the original PBM boards and included them with the machine. Needless > to say I put them back. Oh yes... my first IBM PC was a 5150 with dual-floppy drives and a CGA display. I went and bought a Quadram Quadboard, filled it with 384K and dove right in. I later bought an XT controller and a 10 MB hard drive so that I could run PC/ix (which I am still looking for; I have the downloadable images that were posted here at one point,but I'd still like to find a "real" copy one day). > I still have that machine, it still works. > >> storage at a museum for 18 years. ?They pulled it out, dusted it and >> it booted DOS right away. ?It's a dual-floppy model. > > I really don't like this cavalier approach of getting something out of > storage and powering it up without doing any tests first. But anyway... Neither do I, but I take what I can get. :) > Should you need any hardware help with the machine, I have the techref... Much appreciated... I might ask for help decoding the motherboard DIP switches at some point, but that won't happen until it arrives. > -tony > >> Feel free to ignore this if it's too off-topic for the list. :) > > Err, it's a computer. It's over 10 years old. Like it or not, the IBM PC > was a significant machine. How can it possibly be off-topic? I was smiling when I wrote that! :) mark From toby at coreware.co.uk Sat May 15 16:25:31 2010 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 22:25:31 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: I'm going to be exhibiting my PDP-11 running a MUD I've been writing over last few months. Will probably take a long a PDP-8 and some other goodies. I'll be going up from Godalming, Surrey on the Friday, returning Sunday evening. Happy to give a lift to anyone who wants to go up and should have space in the Luton van I've hired for anyone wanting to take up systems. Cheers, Toby On 15 May 2010 22:16, Dave Caroline wrote: > I didnt know about it till this thread started, I would like to go but > I too will have to think about it closer to the weekend as Im out of > work at the moment. > > Dave Caroline > > On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Philip Pemberton > wrote: > > Hi guys, > > > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage > Computer > > Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th of June > at > > Bletchley Park? > > > > I'm toying with the idea of booking some time off work and going down on > the > > train for either the Saturday or the Sunday; I'd rather like to see the > > talks by Sophie Wilson and Tony Sale, although it'd be nice to meet up > with > > a few of the UK-based classiccmp'ers as well. The mailing list is fine, > but > > it'd be nice to put names to faces :) > > > > I also figure the "VCF Flea Market" might be a good way to get my sticky > > paws on some 8-inch floppy drives, discs and possibly an MFM hard drive > and > > controller pair or two. I still don't have a working 8in drive to test > the > > DiscFerret with... > > > > Speaking of which, I could be persuaded to bring the current "circuit > test" > > prototype down with me, though booking a table will probably be a real > pig > > at this late stage, and I'm willing to wager it's probably going to be > too > > expensive for my budget anyway (I'm saving my last ?150 to get a run of > > prototype PCBs made!)... > > > > Cheers, > > -- > > Phil. > > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > > > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > From list_cctalk at greencroft.co.uk Sat May 15 19:07:55 2010 From: list_cctalk at greencroft.co.uk (list_cctalk at greencroft.co.uk) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 01:07:55 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1494599331.20100516010755@gmail.com> Saturday, May 15, 2010, 1:00:36 AM, you wrote: PP> Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage PP> Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th PP> of June at Bletchley Park? I hope to make it over to Bletchley for the Sunday, finances willing... greg From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat May 15 19:10:30 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 19:10:30 -0500 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 Message-ID: It's fun to read this stuff. I didn't realize microchannel was available from anyone but IBM. And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. :-) http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 15 19:27:43 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 20:27:43 -0400 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 References: Message-ID: <5A25A0402208483985DFAF54AE4E43C4@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 8:10 PM Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 > It's fun to read this stuff. I didn't realize microchannel was > available from anyone but IBM. And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. :-) > > http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ Only a few paid the fee to be able to use the MCA architecture, the rest got together and did EISA. A 5000 would be fun for the collection, but I have not seen any of the clone MCA machines for sale anywhere (unless I missed one on ebay). I wonder what the IBM machine with the same config would have cost, maybe the Tandy was a bargain. I think in 1989 I might have just purchased a 286-12 Packard Bell. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 15 19:29:28 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 19:29:28 -0500 Subject: memory emulators, eprom programmers, embedded, etc. Message-ID: Hi, I querry all the sages out there for your recommendations for a romulator and burner set of tools. What I would like to have is a emulator tool like a USB device and a set of socket adapters (DIP and J lead for network cards); Some command line tools or open source that would let me pipe the result of a comple and link within a IDE, like eclipse (OK emacs if I must) for the compile debug test cycle; Then hardware to actually later blow (flash?) some parts, these would be 28 pin dips for my old z80 fun, and I would like to explore the boot ROM on a network card, so thats why I ask for a j lead socket adapter. Somebody brought up the B&C Microsystems guys a few pages back; I knew those guys. I think I was their largest customer; we bought hundreds of their programmers to ship with our product, a z-80 industrial terminal for PLCs. It was a build or buy decision; we went buy, as they gave them to us for $75 or so in volume. We had a few bugs, like buffer overrun and incorrect handshake over rs232, but they fixed it pretty quick. Nice guys. While I'm on the embedded topic, has anyone herd of this trick, their calling a 'glitching environment', wherein the fuse protected ROM of a CPU is made available, by bouncing the supply pin under DAC control and monitoring the bus? >From what I understand, it puts the processor into an indeterminate state occasionally, and allows you to access the bus of a protected ROM in the CPU. Secure microcontrollers are apparently, not that secure. I was looking into homebuilt spectrum analyzers (I'm KF7CJW) and ran across this hack from a kiddies texting IM toy, its a GHz tuner, display and processor for >$20 http://ossmann.blogspot.com/2010/03/16-pocket-spectrum-analyzer.html Processor glitching is discussed as part of their JTAG reflash of this toy. Not that I actually had to come clean by revealing processor glitching as an innocent discovery on another topic; I've been looking for ways to pick locks most of my life. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat May 15 19:40:54 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 01:40:54 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BEF3F16.8050207@gifford.co.uk> >Hi guys, > >Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage=20 >Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th=20 >of June at Bletchley Park? Yes, I'll be there with an exhibit featuring the Compukit UK101. I have my original highly-modified machine, another unmodified in its cardboard box, and one that I've switched to a 6809 CPU. Photos of the three UK101s at the Maker Faire are here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/4440972624 -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat May 15 20:12:26 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 02:12:26 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BEF467A.80603@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage > Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th > of June at Bletchley Park? Yeah I should be there with my Acorn Atom Clone, and the rest of the Acorn people :) May bring some of the other stuff I've been playing with as well. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 15 20:29:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 21:29:40 -0400 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BEF4A84.2040206@neurotica.com> On 5/15/10 8:10 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > It's fun to read this stuff. I didn't realize microchannel was > available from anyone but IBM. And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. :-) > > http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ MicroChannel *cards* were also made by (at least) 3Com and Silicon Graphics. (Unless SGI only designed that fancy MCA video card for IBM and let IBM make it...anybody know? Sridhar, you still have the one you got from me a dozen or so years ago, right?) Were there any other MicroChannel systems out there aside from IBM and Tandy? I seem to recall there was at least one other. MicroChannel is neat. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 15 20:36:18 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 21:36:18 -0400 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 References: <4BEF4A84.2040206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 9:29 PM Subject: Re: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 > On 5/15/10 8:10 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> It's fun to read this stuff. I didn't realize microchannel was >> available from anyone but IBM. And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. :-) >> >> http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ > > MicroChannel *cards* were also made by (at least) 3Com and Silicon > Graphics. (Unless SGI only designed that fancy MCA video card for IBM and > let IBM make it...anybody know? Sridhar, you still have the one you got > from me a dozen or so years ago, right?) > > Were there any other MicroChannel systems out there aside from IBM and > Tandy? I seem to recall there was at least one other. > > MicroChannel is neat. > > -- > Dave> Quite a few companies made MCA cards, I have them from Adaptec, Madge, Iomega, Logitech, SMC, Orchid, Procomm, Kingston, Intel, Lantastic, Cornerstone, Powergraph, Bustek, Daystar, 3com, and IBM. Apricot, Dell, Tandy, Research Machines and Olivetti also made machines with MCA. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat May 15 22:09:38 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 22:09:38 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com> <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4BEF61F2.5030409@brutman.com> John Foust wrote: > I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation environment > on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it in 2002 > regarding whether it could run OS/2. > > I've been using it for a client's servers for the past few months and > it is mind-blowing. Drag-and-drop, super-fast start and stop of entire > virtual servers. > > One of VMware's demo appliances is a DOS environment running old games. > Linux large and small is a common OS in appliances, too. > > With the free VMware Workstation version, you can easily click-click > and be running a downloaded appliance. > > So why aren't we using VMware appliance images to exchange pre-made, > pre-set environments for running emulated OSes? > > - John > > > Dredging up an old thread because I finally got around to trying it out .. VMWare Player 3 installed IBM DOS 6.3 nicely. I was able to use a USB floppy drive or floppy images from my hard drive. The emulated network support (AMD PCNet) worked fine with a packet driver, and I was able to run my TCP/IP applications. But it seems to fall down when using DOS console applications. 80x25 text is readable, but when you switch to 80x50 it keeps the same window size, which is not pleasant to work with. There does not seem to be a window scaling option or other trick to make it usable. Even full-screen mode just takes over the entire screen but fills it with a black border and keeps the working area the same. This seems to be a common complaint. Do you use it for DOS text mode applications? If so, have you noticed this too? I'm going to look at VirtualBox next .. Mike From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 15 22:29:11 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 23:29:11 -0400 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 In-Reply-To: <4BEF4A84.2040206@neurotica.com> References: <4BEF4A84.2040206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201005152329.11245.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 15 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/15/10 8:10 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > > It's fun to read this stuff. I didn't realize microchannel was > > available from anyone but IBM. And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. > > :-) > > > > http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ > > MicroChannel *cards* were also made by (at least) 3Com and Silicon > Graphics. (Unless SGI only designed that fancy MCA video card for > IBM and let IBM make it...anybody know? Sridhar, you still have the > one you got from me a dozen or so years ago, right?) > > Were there any other MicroChannel systems out there aside from IBM > and Tandy? I seem to recall there was at least one other. NCR. Big SMP machines, and some desktops, with 486 through at least PPro processors running NCR's UNIX. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 15 23:07:14 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 21:07:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS or pickup: "almost complete" Aquarius set, Apple II drive, etc. Message-ID: <201005160407.o4G47EOX012954@floodgap.com> I am at work thinning down the ranks for a possible move in a few weeks, so here are the first things that need to go: - An "almost complete" Mattel Aquarius system, the system of the 1970s from the 1980s. I rather enjoyed playing with this but it's a terribly limited machine and I had nowhere to keep it hooked up, so I regretfully must bid it farewell. Working when stored. Main unit, tape storage, thermal printer (this one is a bit iffy), mini-expander with controllers and 2x 16K RAM expansions. Also has (loose) Utopia, FinForm and FileForm (the pathetic attempt at productivity apps), and Night Stalker, and (boxed) Utopia, Tron Deadly Discs, Biorhythms (see, I said it was the System of the 1970s) and Night Stalker, and a complete unopened Logo language kit. I'm pretty sure I have the modem too, but I can't find it (I will ship it separately if I do). Has most of the manuals and all of the kitsch. I will not part this out. - Third-party Disk ][ clone (says "Fourth"). Two drives for connection to a standard disk controller card (not a UniDisk or floppy port connection). Working when stored. Pick it up from Inland Empire region, California; or cost of shipping. I'll consider shipping internationally, but USA requests get priority simply because it's easier and cheaper. These guys need to be gone one way or another by the end of the month. More likely to come. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Consider the lilac. And while you're doing that, I'll go through your stuff. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 15 23:11:50 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 21:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS or pickup: "almost complete" Aquarius set, Apple II drive, etc. In-Reply-To: <201005160407.o4G47EOX012954@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "May 15, 10 09:07:14 pm" Message-ID: <201005160411.o4G4BoWN005932@floodgap.com> Add to that: - Apple IIe, sent to me by someone who couldn't keep it and now I can't keep it (I am restricting myself to my hotrod IIgs). Allegedly working. I'll throw in a couple boxes of manuals if you want them, but this is optional. Priority to anyone who wants the IIe with the disk drive, but I will do separate. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And if I claim to be a wise man/it surely means that I don't know. -- Kansas From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 15 23:22:16 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 23:22:16 -0500 Subject: VMware appliances In-Reply-To: <4BEF61F2.5030409@brutman.com> References: <624966d61002161340u1f99ad42i480171e6d69b59fe@mail.gmail.com>, <201002170320.o1H3Kqrx000959@billY.EZWIND.NET>, <4BEF61F2.5030409@brutman.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 22:09:38 -0500 > From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com > To: > Subject: Re: VMware appliances > > John Foust wrote: > > I was curious to see if anyone mentioned VMware as an emulation environment > > on this list. The archives show a brief conversation about it in 2002 > > regarding whether it could run OS/2. > > > > I've been using it for a client's servers for the past few months and > > it is mind-blowing. Drag-and-drop, super-fast start and stop of entire > > virtual servers. > > > > One of VMware's demo appliances is a DOS environment running old games. > > Linux large and small is a common OS in appliances, too. > > > > With the free VMware Workstation version, you can easily click-click > > and be running a downloaded appliance. > > > > So why aren't we using VMware appliance images to exchange pre-made, > > pre-set environments for running emulated OSes? > > > > - John > > > > > > > > Dredging up an old thread because I finally got around to trying it out .. > > VMWare Player 3 installed IBM DOS 6.3 nicely. I was able to use a USB > floppy drive or floppy images from my hard drive. The emulated network > support (AMD PCNet) worked fine with a packet driver, and I was able to > run my TCP/IP applications. > > But it seems to fall down when using DOS console applications. 80x25 > text is readable, but when you switch to 80x50 it keeps the same window > size, which is not pleasant to work with. There does not seem to be a > window scaling option or other trick to make it usable. Even > full-screen mode just takes over the entire screen but fills it with a > black border and keeps the working area the same. This seems to be a > common complaint. > > Do you use it for DOS text mode applications? If so, have you noticed > this too? > > I'm going to look at VirtualBox next .. > > > Mike > I had some awesome success with dosbox. I had a pretty demanding application, TOPAS 4.0, or CrystalGraphics, a expensive 3d animation program. It ran the VGA display drivers too, including VESA modes and 1024x768 Mouse worked fine EMM just great, wow, the program never saw that much memory before, and could use it for playback movies out of ram. I recommend dosbox, Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun May 16 04:20:19 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 10:20:19 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17251B84-DF92-4C39-8E6A-ED30577E8220@microspot.co.uk> On 16 May 2010, at 05:07, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 20:12:58 +0100 > From: Roger Pugh > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4BEEF23A.8050204 at mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 05/15/2010 01:00, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Hi guys, >> >> Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage >> Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and >> 20th of June at Bletchley Park? > > I intend to go for one of the days, but not sure which. > > Is anyone interested in a car share from the South East? > Possibly, I am roughly equidistant from M20 J8 and J9. Where are you? If I arrange to share a car I won't let apathy reign on the day. My best MPG car is about 23 so maybe not one of mine though my supercharged Daimler V8 is very luxurious, it only does 17 mpg! Roger Holmes. From lproven at gmail.com Sun May 16 06:07:24 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 12:07:24 +0100 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 2:31 AM, Ken Seefried wrote: > PJ writes an unabashedly fawning article highlighting the value of old computers and the classic computer community in the context of patent litigation, and predictably that community shits on her because she doesn't have a dedicated practitioner of obscure arts understanding of how 20 year old computers can be preserved. Somehow, I think a paralegal (hint: non-technical) in her (I think) 30s not steeped in computer history beyond the SCO case can be given a pass there, but clearly some of you, the predictable ones, have different ideas. > Who is "shitting on" her or anyone, and where, please? I certainly wasn't and I don't recall anyone else doing so. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun May 16 06:53:08 2010 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 13:53:08 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100516115308.GR11536@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2010-04-19 15:57:42 +0200, Steve Maddison wrote: > Since then it seems to have gone quiet. Did anyone end up doing > anything with the dump, or were all the requests for this simply to > ensure that the raw data was preserved? I've not yet done a lot with it, though I downloaded it when it was made available and inspected it a bit. After moving to a new flat, I actually realized how many books and magazines my girlfriend and I own. That made me think about an Integrated Library System (ILS), so we're thinking to use Koha[1] to manage all our stuff. (For now, that's only like getting an overview over all of our available books.) Manx is, to some extend, a search frontend to a distributed library with a number of branches (where actual data is stored, like on the Manx site itself, or on Bitkeepers, or ...) What's missing in a typical ILS is working on TOC data; however, I guess that this can be added by mapping a number of MARC 21/UNIMARC fields. So instead of hacking an own "Manx", it could be fruitful to use something like Koha, possibly extending it a bit. Even right now, you can attach URLs or files (eg. the PDF files) to an entry. Being new to Koha, full-text (and TOC) searching might not be possible right now, but it might be worth discussing it with the Koha people. (I'll at least do that on IRC sometime soon.) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? the second : From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sun May 16 07:02:19 2010 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 14:02:19 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: <20100516115308.GR11536@lug-owl.de> References: <20100516115308.GR11536@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20100516120219.GS11536@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2010-05-16 13:53:08 +0200, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > After moving to a new flat, I actually realized how many books and > magazines my girlfriend and I own. That made me think about an > Integrated Library System (ILS), so we're thinking to use Koha[1] to > manage all our stuff. (For now, that's only like getting an overview > over all of our available books.) *cough* [1] http://koha-community.org/ -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf the second : f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun May 16 07:10:16 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 13:10:16 +0100 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: <20100516115308.GR11536@lug-owl.de> References: <20100516115308.GR11536@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: I too watch the library and archive software world and also lurk in #CODE4LIB on freenode. Some open source stuff is mentioned here http://archivalsoftware.pbworks.com/FrontPage A lot of them rely on SOLR which is based on Lucene for their searches. Part numbers include short and popular words that most search engines ignore and dont index. Table of contents does not seem well catered for in marc records, which is one of the reasons I have not switched to any of the open source systems. Dave Caroline On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Mon, 2010-04-19 15:57:42 +0200, Steve Maddison wrote: >> Since then it seems to have gone quiet. Did anyone end up doing >> anything with the dump, or were all the requests for this simply to >> ensure that the raw data was preserved? > > I've not yet done a lot with it, though I downloaded it when it was > made available and inspected it a bit. > > After moving to a new flat, I actually realized how many books and > magazines my girlfriend and I own. That made me think about an > Integrated Library System (ILS), so we're thinking to use Koha[1] to > manage all our stuff. (For now, that's only like getting an overview > over all of our available books.) > > Manx is, to some extend, a search frontend to a distributed library > with a number of branches (where actual data is stored, like on the > Manx site itself, or on Bitkeepers, or ...) > > What's missing in a typical ILS is working on TOC data; however, I > guess that this can be added by mapping a number of MARC 21/UNIMARC > fields. So instead of hacking an own "Manx", it could be fruitful to > use something like Koha, possibly extending it a bit. Even right now, > you can attach URLs or files (eg. the PDF files) to an entry. Being > new to Koha, full-text (and TOC) searching might not be possible right > now, but it might be worth discussing it with the Koha people. (I'll > at least do that on IRC sometime soon.) > > MfG, JBG > > -- > ? ? ?Jan-Benedict Glaw ? ? ?jbglaw at lug-owl.de ? ? ? ? ? ? ?+49-172-7608481 > Signature of: ? ? ? ? ?GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? > the second ?: > From dave09 at dunfield.com Sun May 16 08:43:33 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 08:43:33 -0500 Subject: memory emulators, eprom programmers, embedded, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4B3B55E40394@dunfield.com> > I querry all the sages out there for your recommendations for a romulator and burner set of tools. I know this isn't what you are looking for, but I thought I'd mention it because it's related and some of the guys on the list may find it "interesting". One of the things I dug up and posted to my "DOS widgets" page in the past couple of months is "QDRE" (Quick and Dirty Rom Emulator). This is an ultra-cheap ROM emulator that can be built with only 5 chips. I created it years ago as a way for guys to get debug monitors and other diagnostics into various systems that I was helping them with remotely. It consists of a socket with some counters attached to the PC parallel port, and moving a module containing either a Dallas type NVRAM chip, or a powered RAM on an umbilical cable (I didn't say it was a "clean" design - just ultra cheap). It does work! > While I'm on the embedded topic, has anyone herd of this trick, their calling a 'glitching > environment', wherein the fuse protected ROM of a CPU is made available, by bouncing the supply pin > under DAC control and monitoring the bus? > > From what I understand, it puts the processor into an indeterminate state occasionally, and allows > you to access the bus of a protected ROM in the CPU. There are microcontrollers with "a security bit" and "secure microcontrollers" - they are not the same thing! I recall guys filling the external address space of "protected" 8051s with NOPs ending at a routine to read out the internal memory and hitting the power rails until it glitched and jumped outside the internal memory... Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From rtellason at verizon.net Sun May 16 09:24:31 2010 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 10:24:31 -0400 Subject: offer: manual Message-ID: <201005161024.32181.rtellason@verizon.net> Anybody want an Epson RX-80 User's Manual before I toss it? Please contact me off-list... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun May 16 10:50:21 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 16:50:21 +0100 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win againstpatent troll...) In-Reply-To: <4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net> <4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: So what is going to replace the Shuttle and when? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: 15 May 2010 02:53 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win againstpatent troll...) On 05/14/2010 06:30 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > Yeah, I've seen that before too. It's interesting that the ISS building program was slated to end the same time as the last shuttle launches. Other way around. NASA wanted to retire the Space Shuttle to work on a new system, and decided to do it as soon as the ISS was complete. The issue was that Congress wouldn't give them enough budget to continue flying the Space Shuttle and in parallel develop its replacement. Each Space Shuttle mission costs around $750 million (private estimate, the published NASA estimate is $450 million but is not generally considered credible). It seems to me that they should have kept flying but scaled back to a schedule of four flights per year, while developing the replacement. A really big problem is that once they committed to shutting down the Space Shuttle program, it became all but impossible (prohibitively expensive even by Congressional standards) to extend the program beyond the scheduled shutdown. > Maybe nothing else can carry as bulky a load? Dunno. > AFAICT, a Delta IV Heavy would be perfectly suitable for launching ISS modules. It's not suitable for launching astronauts. One of the possible alternatives to Ares I was upgrading the Delta IV Heavy to be man-rated. NASA decided against that for political reasons; my friends who are aerospace engineers tell me that from a technical point of view it would have been better in every way than Ares I. Eric From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sun May 16 10:55:24 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 16:55:24 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at May15, 10 01:00:36 am Message-ID: Coal's to Newcastle? By all accounts BP is already full of old systems. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 15 May 2010 19:37 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage=20 > Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th=20 > of June at Bletchley Park? Alas not. This is for several rasons, mostly financial. Had I heard about it early enough (why wasn't it seriously discused here) I would have tired to get along and bring one of my interesting toys. But as it is, I didn't have time to prepare anything. It would cost significant money for me to get from here to Bletchley Park, and then there's the entrance fee. I don't think it's worth it. -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 16 11:50:00 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 12:50:00 -0400 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win againstpatent troll...) In-Reply-To: References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net> <4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BF02238.9090701@atarimuseum.com> NASA had/has a lot available to them... They could've easily have taken the Gemini Blue design and upgraded it... it was capable of bringing up a capsule and a large missions payload (originally a manned orbital observatory - aka - Spy Station) and they could easily be turned into the US version of the Progress Supply ship to bring supplies and a crew of 2 replacements up to the station on a regular basis. The current Atlas V/Centaur system is more then capable of lifting up new and replacement modules to the ISS, bring up crew and supplies. It was just used on April 22nd to launch the secret Air Force X-37B "mini shuttle" which again, with a modified version, could take up to 6 astronauts up to the space station and one could be long term docked at the station as an emergency escape vehicle... something no one is talking about -- with the shuttles being mothballed, how exactly do you get a 7 man crew off of the ISS in an emergency ?!?!? You gonna rely on the russians and their antiquated gumball-capsule technology to bring them down 2-3 at a time. We've already plunked down several billion of ARIES/ORION... quite frankly we should continue their development... this crap from the President about exploring only Asteroids and Mars is just that... CRAP. We are already sending tons of probes out, we need manned near-earth-orbit capabilities and no amount of political spin-doctoring is going to change that. Curt RodSmallwood wrote: > So what is going to replace the Shuttle and when? > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 15 May 2010 02:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win > againstpatent troll...) > > On 05/14/2010 06:30 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote: > >> Yeah, I've seen that before too. It's interesting that the ISS building >> > program was slated to end the same time as the last shuttle launches. > Other way around. NASA wanted to retire the Space Shuttle to work on a > new system, and decided to do it as soon as the ISS was complete. The > issue was that Congress wouldn't give them enough budget to continue > flying the Space Shuttle and in parallel develop its replacement. Each > Space Shuttle mission costs around $750 million (private estimate, the > published NASA estimate is $450 million but is not generally considered > credible). It seems to me that they should have kept flying but scaled > back to a schedule of four flights per year, while developing the > replacement. > > A really big problem is that once they committed to shutting down the > Space Shuttle program, it became all but impossible (prohibitively > expensive even by Congressional standards) to extend the program beyond > the scheduled shutdown. > > >> Maybe nothing else can carry as bulky a load? Dunno. >> >> > AFAICT, a Delta IV Heavy would be perfectly suitable for launching ISS > modules. It's not suitable for launching astronauts. One of the > possible alternatives to Ares I was upgrading the Delta IV Heavy to be > man-rated. NASA decided against that for political reasons; my friends > who are aerospace engineers tell me that from a technical point of view > it would have been better in every way than Ares I. > > Eric > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 16 11:47:44 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:47:44 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration Message-ID: <012901caf517$84ded750$8e9c85f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have posted before about an RD53 I am trying to get back to working order. After unsticking the heads I thought I had a working disk as I have been able to format it and do an image restore of the VMS installation media to it. However, intermittently it has been failing. When this happens the heads completely fail to move when I power on the disk, so the controller and firmware cannot even determine its size. After a few moments the disk spins down. As I said, this is intermittent, sometimes it will work OK. A friend has been helping me and he gave me a complete set of the three boards in the RD53 from a known working disk (he can't give me the disk for reasons not worth going into). I changed all three boards and the drive still completely fails to move the heads, in fact now the fault seems permanent. My friend suggested that the positioning coil may be faulty. He measured the resistance of the coil on one of his working disks (at the plug that goes to the coil from the motor control board), it came to 3 ohms, mine also measured 3 ohms. I measured the voltage at the plug going to the coil, one reads 2V the other 3V, but when it works they both go to about 5V. Can anyone suggest what might be the problem? Thanks Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 16 11:59:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:59:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at May 15, 10 10:16:15 pm Message-ID: > > I didnt know about it till this thread started, I would like to go but Yes, it seems to have been very badly advertised. The fist I heard about it was a comment in passing in Computer Resurection. > I too will have to think about it closer to the weekend as Im out of > work at the moment. Alas I know the feeling all too well :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 16 12:27:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 18:27:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "RodSmallwood" at May 16, 10 04:55:24 pm Message-ID: > > Coal's to Newcastle? > By all accounts BP is already full of old systems. Yes, but I have one or two things they don;t, also I can take my machines apart if I want to. And they tend to work properly... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 16 12:06:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 18:06:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at May 15, 10 02:23:18 pm Message-ID: > > Nice!. I rememebr buying my first PC-family machine -- an IBM 5160. I [...] > Oh yes... my first IBM PC was a 5150 with dual-floppy drives and a CGA > display. I went and bought a Quadram Quadboard, filled it with 384K I forgot to mention. My first 5160 was a dual-floppy model (no hard disk). Yes that configuration was official. Both floppy drives have the IBM logo on the faceplate. It took me a long time to find a CGA card for it. I could get a clone one from the local PC shop back then, but that was one ASIC and a bit of RAM. I wanted (and eventually got) the full-length IBM one with a 6845 and rows of TTL packages. On the other hand I was less fussy about the serial card. The clone one of those was a couple lf 8250s, 1488s, 1489s and TTL for the address decoder. Trivial to produce a schematic of and keep going. This XT now has 4 floppy drives (2 3.5" ones in an external cabinet), 2 hard drives (again in the extenral cabinet), MDA, CGA, 4 serial ports, a 24 line 'user port' and so on. Of course I did the modification and put 640K of RAM on the motherboard. > and dove right in. I later bought an XT controller and a 10 MB hard > drive so that I could run PC/ix (which I am still looking for; I have I bought Minix for mine. [...] > > I really don't like this cavalier approach of getting something out of > > storage and powering it up without doing any tests first. But anyway... > > Neither do I, but I take what I can get. :) Oh, so do I... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 16 12:37:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 18:37:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <012901caf517$84ded750$8e9c85f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 16, 10 05:47:44 pm Message-ID: > > I have posted before about an RD53 I am trying to get back to working order. > After unsticking the heads I thought I had a working disk as I have been > able to format it and do an image restore of the VMS installation media to > it. However, intermittently it has been failing. When this happens the heads > completely fail to move when I power on the disk, so the controller and > firmware cannot even determine its size. After a few moments the disk spins > down. As I said, this is intermittent, sometimes it will work OK. > > A friend has been helping me and he gave me a complete set of the three > boards in the RD53 from a known working disk (he can't give me the disk for I will pretend I didn't read that... > reasons not worth going into). I changed all three boards and the drive > still completely fails to move the heads, in fact now the fault seems > permanent. My friend suggested that the positioning coil may be faulty. He > measured the resistance of the coil on one of his working disks (at the plug > that goes to the coil from the motor control board), it came to 3 ohms, mine > also measured 3 ohms. I measured the voltage at the plug going to the coil, > one reads 2V the other 3V, but when it works they both go to about 5V. I assume you mean the voltage between the pins on the plug, that is the voltage across the coil. As I am sure you know, the positioner is simple in concept. It relies on the magnetic attraiction and replusion between the coil and a fixed permanent magnet. If there is current through the coil, there must be a force (I have never heard of a permanent magnet going intermittant!). You are applying a voltage to the voice coil. Is it the smae polarity in both cases (is it possible that you are trying to move the heads in the wrong direction)? I asusme you didn't plug the coil in backwards!). But even wih the voltage applied, are you sure there's a current? Could be be something as simple as a back contact at the connector? What about a hairline crack in the flexpriint to the coil? It may work OK when the ohmeter is conencted and fail in the operating posiiton (yes I have seen faults a senaky as that!). is there any form of head locking device? If so, is it being releaed? With the disk spinning (essential!), what happend if you 'blip' a DC supply across the posiitoned coil with the latter disconnected from the PCB? Do the heads move then? If you undo the board swap and go back to boards that you know worked on this drive, do you get it working properly sometimes? -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Sun May 16 12:52:39 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 10:52:39 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at May15, 10 01:00:36 am Message-ID: TNMoC is indeed full of old systems, wonderfully so. After the DEC Legacy event in Windermere last month, Ian King and I traveled down to London, then went up to BP on the Monday. (Not their usual open day, but they took pity on us for our traveling schedule. Barney Duffy, volunteer extraordinaire, was our guide.) For a VCF event, though, isn't much of the point to show off one's own gems? TNMoC may have near as makes no difference to one of everything PC from the last 40 years, but they don't have the funds or volunteers to keep each and every one of them running, so for that kind of thing coals to Newcastle is a necessity, hmm? Just my 2d worth. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RodSmallwood Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:55 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK? Coal's to Newcastle? By all accounts BP is already full of old systems. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 15 May 2010 19:37 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage=20 > Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th=20 > of June at Bletchley Park? Alas not. This is for several rasons, mostly financial. Had I heard about it early enough (why wasn't it seriously discused here) I would have tired to get along and bring one of my interesting toys. But as it is, I didn't have time to prepare anything. It would cost significant money for me to get from here to Bletchley Park, and then there's the entrance fee. I don't think it's worth it. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 16 13:10:30 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 19:10:30 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <012901caf517$84ded750$8e9c85f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 16, 10 05:47:44 pm Message-ID: <012e01caf523$1f582010$5e086030$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Many thanks for the reply. I am not an electronics expert unfortunately, but will look at your suggestions. One thing I did (perhaps wrongly) was measure the voltage with one probe connected to the casing, not to the other pin on the cable. I will try across the two pins to see what that is like. I don't have a DC supply I can use to "blip" the coil, unless I can press the PSU from my MicroVAX II into service for this? Is there a danger I might pass too much current and burn the coil? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 16 May 2010 18:37 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD53 Restoration > > > > > I have posted before about an RD53 I am trying to get back to working > order. > > After unsticking the heads I thought I had a working disk as I have > been > > able to format it and do an image restore of the VMS installation > media to > > it. However, intermittently it has been failing. When this happens > the heads > > completely fail to move when I power on the disk, so the controller > and > > firmware cannot even determine its size. After a few moments the disk > spins > > down. As I said, this is intermittent, sometimes it will work OK. > > > > A friend has been helping me and he gave me a complete set of the > three > > boards in the RD53 from a known working disk (he can't give me the > disk for > > I will pretend I didn't read that... > > > reasons not worth going into). I changed all three boards and the > drive > > still completely fails to move the heads, in fact now the fault seems > > permanent. My friend suggested that the positioning coil may be > faulty. He > > measured the resistance of the coil on one of his working disks (at > the plug > > that goes to the coil from the motor control board), it came to 3 > ohms, mine > > also measured 3 ohms. I measured the voltage at the plug going to the > coil, > > one reads 2V the other 3V, but when it works they both go to about > 5V. > > I assume you mean the voltage between the pins on the plug, that is the > voltage across the coil. > > As I am sure you know, the positioner is simple in concept. It relies > on > the magnetic attraiction and replusion between the coil and a fixed > permanent magnet. If there is current through the coil, there must be a > force (I have never heard of a permanent magnet going intermittant!). > > You are applying a voltage to the voice coil. Is it the smae polarity > in > both cases (is it possible that you are trying to move the heads in the > wrong direction)? I asusme you didn't plug the coil in backwards!). > > But even wih the voltage applied, are you sure there's a current? Could > be be something as simple as a back contact at the connector? What > about > a hairline crack in the flexpriint to the coil? It may work OK when the > ohmeter is conencted and fail in the operating posiiton (yes I have > seen > faults a senaky as that!). > > is there any form of head locking device? If so, is it being releaed? > > With the disk spinning (essential!), what happend if you 'blip' a DC > supply across the posiitoned coil with the latter disconnected from the > PCB? Do the heads move then? > > If you undo the board swap and go back to boards that you know worked > on > this drive, do you get it working properly sometimes? > > -tony From d.house at computer.org Wed May 12 07:29:25 2010 From: d.house at computer.org (dh) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 08:29:25 -0400 Subject: IBM System 360 Model 91 operator console from 1969 Message-ID: <000901caf1ce$c24e2a60$46ea7f20$@house@computer.org> Sorry I forgot . here is a picture. http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/36091CART.JPG Regards, Daniel From steerex at ccvn.com Wed May 12 14:25:24 2010 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 15:25:24 -0400 Subject: HP3000 Series 37 Front Panel Key References: Message-ID: <001301caf208$df2f4e40$0301a8c0@win2k> > > If however, anyone wants to make an offer on a complete working 3000 micro > > 37, let me know. It'll probably go on ebay in the next few weeks. > > No, I am not interested, but I have to ask the obviosu question : Where > is it? > > -tony Other side of the pond Tony ;-) North Carolina to be exact. From chrise at pobox.com Wed May 12 19:58:50 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 12 May 2010 19:58:50 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <20100511164707.GQ12136@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100513005850.GB3765@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (05/12/2010 at 06:47PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > That's on the ToDo list. Unfortunately the ROM extension location at A15 > > has no socket installed and all the holes are flowed over with solder. So > > The PCB was probably wave-soldered with no socket in place. Seems > strange, on an experimental machine like this not to fit the expansion > socckets, but anyway... yes... and to make matters worse, some of the devices were soldered in without sockets too! I first suspected the 8279 display+keypad controller and so I had to sacrifice it by cutting the pins off the package and then desoldering each pin one at a time. Sadly, that did not fix the problem and I wasted a nice ceramic packaged 8279 circa 1976. This board likely had a different history than other SDK-85 since it was built into this Philips logic analyzer demo system. It's possible Philips bought the boards assembled from Intel or some middleman who assembled them in this static configuration. > > I need to carefully solder-suck, solder-wick those clean before I can > > install a socket. Boards of this age are quite fond of letting the pads > > loose when you heat them up so I need to do this slowly and carefully. > > The best way I've found to do this is to hold or clamp the board > vertically, melt th solder with an iron on one side and suck with a > solder sucker from the other. It's not too bad doing it for a 40 pin > socket, it gets boring fast when you have to clear out 16 or 32 16 pin > locations for a memory upgrade (been there, done that, don't wear > t-shirts ;-)) yes... or shorts. Do you call them shorts over there? aka, short pants. I still have the scars on my leg from dropping solder blobs onto them while wearing shorts at the bench as a kid. Not cool. -- Chris Elmquist From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 13 09:47:50 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 07:47:50 -0700 Subject: Optical cards In-Reply-To: References: <20100513112219.DB50CBA565D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, , <4BEC0774.5090304@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BEC1116.3010704@jwsss.com> If you pick up these network analyzer machines, the software licenses were locked to the NIC cards. If they come wiped, you are out of luck and likely will never need the NIC card. However companies like Dolch used the NIC cards as license keys so when the NIC failed you were sol getting supplrt w/o going to their service to get it replaced. On 5/13/2010 7:27 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > >> Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 10:06:44 -0400 >> From: keithvz at verizon.net >> To: General at olddell.com >> Subject: Re: Optical cards >> >> dwight elvey wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> Does anyone need an EISA optical link card set. >>> >>> It is a two card set with an in/out optical connector >>> >>> on each board and what looks like a regular 6 pin >>> >>> eithernet on one board. >>> >>> >> While I'm not interested, can you please clarify what it is that you have? >> >> Is this an ethernet card? If so, is it a 10base-FL card? There was >> also an older FOIRL standard. Is it 100base-FX/SX ? Multimode 850nm or >> 1300nm optics? >> >> Ethernet typically has an RJ45, which is an 8-pin modular connector. >> Four pins are active for 10mb and 100mb on copper, pins 1&2 and 3&6. >> >> Thanks >> >> Keith >> > Hi > > I just did a little more searching on the net. > > It has a seperate Ethernet card that I'm sure is 10base. It has > > the 8 pin RJ45, coax and connector to a eithernet driver for the old > > triax cable. > > It seems that this was intended to be a network analyser machine. > > I see various similar machines on ebay. It was called a Network Sniffer. > > I wouldn't know 850nm from 1300nm. The optical ports are retangular, > > about 1.5x3/8 in. > > I picked it up because it has a nice 486 that I can run my EP10 > > programmer from that is more compact than my desk top and monitor. > > It has a 400Meg HD and color LCD. > > A similar machine is ebay #330383454040 but with a different ethernet > > card. > > The keyboard is flakey ( multiple letters on some keys ) but > > I can clean these up. > > Dwight > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > > > From les at frii.com Thu May 13 12:11:20 2010 From: les at frii.com (les at frii.com) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 11:11:20 -0600 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 81, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If the 100w bulb is not brighter than the 40w bulb, why would they make 100w bulbs? Just to waste energy? I realize that watts is not a measure of brightness, but for any given technology, the higher wattage bulb is brighter. >> >> But most people will, without thinking, say "Oh, a 100W bulb is >> brighter than a 40W, so the answer is obvious." And wrong. From chrise at pobox.com Thu May 13 12:16:58 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 12:16:58 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey [SOLVED] In-Reply-To: <20100513005850.GB3765@n0jcf.net> References: <20100511164707.GQ12136@n0jcf.net> <20100513005850.GB3765@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100513171658.GP12136@n0jcf.net> Well, we can put a bow on this one now. I've found the problem. Turns out there was a damaged via on pin 40 of A15 (the optional ROM location) that provides +5 to pin 8 of A14 (the monitor ROM socket). The result was that pin 8 was floating. Pin 8 of 8355 or 8755 is I/OR- and is not used in this design (as I/OM- and RD- are used instead) and so needs to be tied high. With it floating, it was randomly gating an I/O read onto the bus I suppose. When I was freezing the part, I was obviously changing the switch point and causing it to mostly be high instead of sitting at or below threshold. The via was likely damaged when they made mods to the board for the Philips logic analyzer demo application. So, now both the 8355 and the 8755A work. Nothing sinister going on _inside_ the devices after all ;-) Thanks to all for playing along. Chris On Wednesday (05/12/2010 at 07:58PM -0500), Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (05/12/2010 at 06:47PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > That's on the ToDo list. Unfortunately the ROM extension location at A15 > > > has no socket installed and all the holes are flowed over with solder. So > > > > The PCB was probably wave-soldered with no socket in place. Seems > > strange, on an experimental machine like this not to fit the expansion > > socckets, but anyway... > > yes... and to make matters worse, some of the devices were soldered > in without sockets too! I first suspected the 8279 display+keypad > controller and so I had to sacrifice it by cutting the pins off the > package and then desoldering each pin one at a time. Sadly, that did > not fix the problem and I wasted a nice ceramic packaged 8279 circa 1976. > > This board likely had a different history than other SDK-85 since it > was built into this Philips logic analyzer demo system. It's possible > Philips bought the boards assembled from Intel or some middleman who > assembled them in this static configuration. > > > > I need to carefully solder-suck, solder-wick those clean before I can > > > install a socket. Boards of this age are quite fond of letting the pads > > > loose when you heat them up so I need to do this slowly and carefully. > > > > The best way I've found to do this is to hold or clamp the board > > vertically, melt th solder with an iron on one side and suck with a > > solder sucker from the other. It's not too bad doing it for a 40 pin > > socket, it gets boring fast when you have to clear out 16 or 32 16 pin > > locations for a memory upgrade (been there, done that, don't wear > > t-shirts ;-)) > > yes... or shorts. Do you call them shorts over there? aka, short pants. > I still have the scars on my leg from dropping solder blobs onto them > while wearing shorts at the bench as a kid. Not cool. > > -- > Chris Elmquist > -- Chris Elmquist From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu May 13 15:29:01 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Thu, 13 May 2010 15:29:01 -0500 Subject: School (Was: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BEC610D.9080801@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 11 May 2010 at 21:52, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Since they are in series, they are both passing the same current. >>> Therefore the power disipated is porportional to the resistance. A 40W >>> bulb will have a higher resistance than a 100W bulb, so, making >>> reasonable assumptions about the bulbs, the 40W one will be brighter. >> Yes, I was sort of hinting at a possible solution to the original > > Sure. i never actually saw the original post... It would be interesting > to measure the votlages across the various bulbs in the OP's circuit. > >> problem--in fact, the resistance difference becomes much larger as >> the 40W lamp begins to glow. If you put the series-connected lamps >> on a variac and slowly inch the voltage up, it's surprising how the >> positive temperature coefficient of resistance starts kicking in. > > That is something I am going to have to try (having never done it). > >> But most people will, without thinking, say "Oh, a 100W bulb is >> brighter than a 40W, so the answer is obvious." And wrong. > > These are the same people that think you _have_ to draw 13A from a 13A > mains socket, i guess ;-) > > [A buyl disipating 100W is likely to be righter than one disipating 40W. > But in this circuit, the buls are not disipating their rated powers] > > >> But then we learn more when something doesn't work the way it's >> "supposed to", than when it does, don't we? That's one issue I have > > Of course. I can't rememebr who said it, but there's a quote something > like "The words that come before the greatest progresses in science are > not "Eureka" but "Hey, that's curious"' > >> with a lot of secondary-school laboratory courses. You do the >> experiment, can pretty much guess from the course material what's >> going to happen and it does. Time for lunch. > > One thing that I learnt very early on (from my parents, not at school, I > hasten to add) is that if something does not do wht you expect, you stop > and investigate. Most of the time it will be because you've done > something silly. Just occasionally it's because there's something > interesting going on. OK, you folks are going to just force me to go put some bulbs in series and play around with them. :-) Multiple stable states would indeed be most interesting! You also remind me that school can occur anywhere, any time, under any circumstances. During college I worked part time repairing TV's etc. Many TV's back then (early 1960's) had one or more "oil-filled" or "oil-impregnated" (can't recall which) paper caps, often somewhere in the horizontal oscillator circuitry or thereabouts IIRC. They would go bad and have to be replaced, but what was really interesting were the bad ones. Something had happened inside to turn them into what I perceive to be a battery with a rather large series resistance. I think I first discovered this when I discharged a bad one, then measured it with my ohm meter and it proceeded to peg the meter. I shorted it out again for a bit, then measured it with a voltmeter. Sure enough it was still generating somewhere around 1 volt. I was determined, so I shorted it out again and left it shorted all night. The next day after removing the short the voltmeter said the battery was still alive and well - perhaps a bit diminished (it's been 50 years after all). I kept one of those shorted out on my workbench for months and measured it periodically. It never did run down completely. I wish now I'd had the presence of mind to measure the effective series resistance of the "capattery", but I did not think of that at the time. I think I read an explanation of the chemistry/process that causes this a few years ago, but I've since forgotten the explanation. Though I did not understand the phenomenon at the time (still don't) I think it was a very good practical lesson in learning not to assume too much, as well as learning to sometimes expect the unexpected. Later, Charlie C. > >> Back when I was taking a course in numerical methods, I had a teacher >> who'd assign seemingly easy programs. You had a week to code it up; >> just about any text would have the method documented. He'd post the >> data set the day before the assignment was due. >> >> Of course, after about the first two assignments, you learned that >> his data were going to be pathological and destined to break any "out >> of the book" method. In a previous life, he'd worked for NASA and I >> suspect, learned things the hard way. > > That's the sort of teacher I would like... > > -tony > > From jws at jwsss.com Sat May 15 14:02:23 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 12:02:23 -0700 Subject: EECO PTR tech info In-Reply-To: <4BEEE111.6080505@bitsavers.org> References: <4BEEE111.6080505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BEEEFBF.1090201@jwsss.com> Useless data, Microdata bought power supplies from EECO, but I never saw any paper tape readers, or documents. Jim On 5/15/2010 10:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone have any tech info on EECO paper tape reader? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360166759118 > > Looked through my pile, and I don't seem to have anything on them. > > They're interesting because the tape guide can be set to 5/6/8 level > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 16 09:07:17 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 10:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Edge connector repair Message-ID: There are many outfits offering repair kits for PCB edge connectors, but all of them are $2-300. That's complete overkill for the one or two repairs per year I might need to perform. If I purchase a "frame" of dry-adhesive backed traces from Circuit Medic, what are the chances of using a temperature-controlled bench iron to bond them? Anyone have experience with this? I can see making the $40 investment if it has even a chance of working. Alternately, what other approaches have folks used? Steve -- From david at marmotking.com Sat May 15 20:31:07 2010 From: david at marmotking.com (David J. Cooper) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 18:31:07 -0700 Subject: MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 Memory Problem Message-ID: <431165B692904B55B46171FD12D14B67@phildirt> I have a MicroVAX 2000 motherboard which boots fine unless I plug in a 4MB memory expansion card. I already tried the following: [1] Attempted to boot with a different 4MB card. Doesn't work. [2] Booted a different MicroVAX 2000 motherboard with the original memory card. Worked. So, it would seem that the problem isn't with the memory card, since the card appears to work on another machine and another machine's card doesn't work on this machine. However, the odd thing is that it worked just 5 minutes ago. I know, if something's going to fail it has to fail sometime. Is there anything I should be looking for? Jumpers I should wiggle or anything like that? I'm doing this with the motherboad just sitting on the desk connected to a power supply and console cable (a special cable with pins 7 and 8 shorted) to make it a MicroVAX 2000 console cable. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat May 15 21:27:17 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 15 May 2010 19:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <917969.50963.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> it is off-topic for me. I only collect IBM-incompatibles :) :( (smiley for politeness, frowny for off-topicness) but if you should happen to obtain some eggregious Multibus box or what have you, I'm all eyes :) :) :) From elazzerini at interfree.it Sun May 16 08:27:45 2010 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 15:27:45 +0200 Subject: Microcornucopia Magazine Message-ID: Hi at all, today i begun to scan my issues. At this moment i done MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.14 Oct 1983 http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf and MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.16 Feb 1984 http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf Is out there who has issues from 1 to 11 and would scan some his issues??? I think this would be the only change we have to : - gain issues we not have - save this wonderful past and defunt magazine Regards Enrico From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 16 13:43:58 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 11:43:58 -0700 Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 10:07:17 -0400 > From: snhirsch at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Edge connector repair > > There are many outfits offering repair kits for PCB edge connectors, but > all of them are $2-300. That's complete overkill for the one or two > repairs per year I might need to perform. > > If I purchase a "frame" of dry-adhesive backed traces from Circuit Medic, > what are the chances of using a temperature-controlled bench iron to bond > them? Anyone have experience with this? I can see making the $40 > investment if it has even a chance of working. > > Alternately, what other approaches have folks used? > > Steve > > > -- Hi If it is really bad, I cut another scrap boards connector up with a fine bimetal hacksaw. I then epoxy the new connector or part of connector on. When set, I reconnect traces with hookup wire. Place tape on gold fingers to keep accidental solder from running on them. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 16 13:49:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 11:49:08 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 81, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4BEFDBB4.14776.E966EA@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 May 2010 at 11:11, les at frii.com wrote: > If the 100w bulb is not brighter than the 40w bulb, why would they > make 100w bulbs? Just to waste energy? I realize that watts is not a > measure of brightness, but for any given technology, the higher > wattage bulb is brighter. >> >> But most people will, without > thinking, say "Oh, a 100W bulb is >> brighter than a 40W, so the > answer is obvious." And wrong. I'll try to explain without going mathematical on you. In this case, the answer requires a little thought. The current consumed by a bulb is proportional to the voltage applied and the bulb's resistance. And the power dissipated is equal to the product of the current passing through it times the voltage across it. In a normal application, the voltage is more-or-less a fixed quantity, so that the power dissipated by the bulb is basically inversely proportional to the resistance. Lower resistance = higher power. So a 100W lamp, has a lower resistance than the 40W bulb and dissipates more power at the same voltage. But put them in series. There, the voltage is divided across the lamps in the same ratio as their resistances, so the 40W lamp, having the higher resistance, also has a higher voltage across it. Since the current flowing through both lamps is the same (they're in series), the power dissipated by the 40W lamp and that of the 100W lamp will be in the same ratio as the respective resistances of the lamps. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 16 13:53:56 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 14:53:56 -0400 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100513005850.GB3765@n0jcf.net> References: <20100511164707.GQ12136@n0jcf.net> <20100513005850.GB3765@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4BF03F44.3060608@neurotica.com> On 5/12/10 8:58 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > yes... and to make matters worse, some of the devices were soldered > in without sockets too! I first suspected the 8279 display+keypad > controller and so I had to sacrifice it by cutting the pins off the > package and then desoldering each pin one at a time. Sadly, that did > not fix the problem and I wasted a nice ceramic packaged 8279 circa 1976. Oh that SUCKS...Ceramic-packaged 8279s are, in my experience, extremely rare. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 16 13:55:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 14:55:53 -0400 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey [SOLVED] In-Reply-To: <20100513171658.GP12136@n0jcf.net> References: <20100511164707.GQ12136@n0jcf.net> <20100513005850.GB3765@n0jcf.net> <20100513171658.GP12136@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4BF03FB9.4060603@neurotica.com> On 5/13/10 1:16 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Well, we can put a bow on this one now. I've found the problem. > > Turns out there was a damaged via on pin 40 of A15 (the optional ROM > location) that provides +5 to pin 8 of A14 (the monitor ROM socket). > > The result was that pin 8 was floating. Pin 8 of 8355 or 8755 is I/OR- > and is not used in this design (as I/OM- and RD- are used instead) and > so needs to be tied high. With it floating, it was randomly gating an > I/O read onto the bus I suppose. When I was freezing the part, I was > obviously changing the switch point and causing it to mostly be high > instead of sitting at or below threshold. > > The via was likely damaged when they made mods to the board for the > Philips logic analyzer demo application. > > So, now both the 8355 and the 8755A work. > > Nothing sinister going on _inside_ the devices after all ;-) > > Thanks to all for playing along. Great catch, congrats! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 16 13:39:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 19:39:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100513005850.GB3765@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at May 12, 10 07:58:50 pm Message-ID: > > On Wednesday (05/12/2010 at 06:47PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > That's on the ToDo list. Unfortunately the ROM extension location at A15 > > > has no socket installed and all the holes are flowed over with solder. So > > > > The PCB was probably wave-soldered with no socket in place. Seems > > strange, on an experimental machine like this not to fit the expansion > > socckets, but anyway... > > yes... and to make matters worse, some of the devices were soldered > in without sockets too! I first suspected the 8279 display+keypad Pity... > controller and so I had to sacrifice it by cutting the pins off the > package and then desoldering each pin one at a time. Sadly, that did > not fix the problem and I wasted a nice ceramic packaged 8279 circa 1976. Normally I find I can desolder the device and sae both the chip and the PCB. I think I've mentioned before that the trick is, after sucking off the solder, to use a small flat-blade screwdriver on the component side to puse each pin towards the IC body and break the remaing solder bond. A couple of times I have had to cut off the pins. I've found that with a good pair of close-cutting end nippers you can leave enough of a stub on the package to then be able to solder the device to the top of a normal DIL socket which yo ucan then plug into another DIL socket to use it. I wouldn't trust it in somebody else's machine unless I _had_ to, but I've savaged a dew hard-to-get ICs that way. > > > > The best way I've found to do this is to hold or clamp the board > > vertically, melt th solder with an iron on one side and suck with a > > solder sucker from the other. It's not too bad doing it for a 40 pin > > socket, it gets boring fast when you have to clear out 16 or 32 16 pin > > locations for a memory upgrade (been there, done that, don't wear > > t-shirts ;-)) > My comment was a version fo 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt', and I meant it to be interpretted as 'I never wear T-shirts' (so I don't have one that says I've had to clearout 512 holes for a memory upgrade) > yes... or shorts. Do you call them shorts over there? aka, short pants. Yes 'shorts' has the same meaning over here. But 'pants' tends to refer to underwear. > I still have the scars on my leg from dropping solder blobs onto them > while wearing shorts at the bench as a kid. Not cool. Ouch. I can still just see the burn on the back of my hand where I dropped solder on it years ago... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 16 13:45:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 19:45:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 81, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: from "les@frii.com" at May 13, 10 11:11:20 am Message-ID: > > If the 100w bulb is not brighter than the 40w bulb, why would they make > 100w bulbs? Just to waste energy? I realize that watts is not a measure If you run a 100W bulb at its rated voltage, it is going to be brighter than a similar-technology 40W bulb also run at its rated voltage. I don;t think anyone is disputing that. And if you connect 2 bulbs of the same voltage in parallel (say 2 mains-voltage bulbs) and connect then to a source of that voltage, then the 100Q one will be brighter than the 40W one. Again, we all agree on that. But if you connect the bulbs _in series_, you will find that the 40W one is brighter. It's not disipating 40W, and the 100W one is not disipating anything like 100W. If you assume the bulbs are constant resistave (which is incorrect, but see later), siunce they are passing the same current (they are in series), then the power disipated is proportional to the resistance, And a 40W bulb has a higher resistnce than a 100W bulb. In fact bulbs have a positive temperature coefficient of resistance which means when you connect them in series like this, the 40W bulb heats up, its resistance increastes to it disipates even more power, while the 100W bulb stays cool and its reisstance remains low, and it disipates very little power. Try it.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 16 13:54:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 19:54:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: <917969.50963.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at May 15, 10 07:27:17 pm Message-ID: > > it is off-topic for me. I only collect IBM-incompatibles :) :( I suspect we use that term in different ways. For me an 'IBM incomaptible' is an 80x86-based machine that will not run IBM PC MS-DOS (it may well run a customisd MS-DOS). Machinss like the HP110, HP150, FTS-88, DEC Rainbow. Of course there are plenty of other machines which are even more incompativle. PDP11s, for example :-). I experienced the reverse situation. Somebody said to me 'do you want an IBM compatible ethernet interface'. I was expecting an ISA card. What I actually fot was a boc of electronics with Tag and Bus connectors on the back to connect to an IBM 270 channel. Oh, and an AUI connector :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 16 14:02:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 20:02:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <012e01caf523$1f582010$5e086030$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 16, 10 07:10:30 pm Message-ID: > > Many thanks for the reply. I am not an electronics expert unfortunately, but Alas sometimes I forget that not everyone had a mis-sepnt shildhood... > will look at your suggestions. One thing I did (perhaps wrongly) was measure > the voltage with one probe connected to the casing, not to the other pin on This problaby is not the right thing to do. The point is that you need to be able to pass a crurrent through the positioner coil in either direction (one way will exert a force to move the heads towards the spindle, the other way will exert a force to move the heads away form the spindle). Now if you had one side of the coil grounded (same voltage as the chassis) yoy would need power supplies of both polarities wrt ground to be able to do that. What is more commonly done is a circuit based on what is called a 'full H driver. Basiecaly it means both sides of the load (the coil in this case) can be driven. If one side is pulled towards ground tand the otehr side to, wayu, +12V, the heads moce one way. But if the first side is taken to +12V and hte second side to ground they move the other way. If oyu measure the voltage wrt ground on one end of the coil you are, effectively, only testing half the circuit. There could still be a fault. > the cable. I will try across the two pins to see what that is like. I don't > have a DC supply I can use to "blip" the coil, unless I can press the PSU Sure you do. I bet you'd get some movement using a small battery. P > from my MicroVAX II into service for this? Is there a danger I might pass > too much current and burn the coil? There is, which is why you 'blip' it. Actually, a battery is probably the safest, a primary (non-recharageable) 9V battery is not going to supply enough current to do much damage. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 16 14:13:07 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 20:13:07 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <012e01caf523$1f582010$5e086030$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 16, 10 07:10:30 pm Message-ID: <012f01caf52b$d52c0070$7f840150$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Thanks, never thought of the obvious, will dig out a 9V battery and try that. Thanks again. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 16 May 2010 20:03 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD53 Restoration > > > > > Many thanks for the reply. I am not an electronics expert > unfortunately, but > > Alas sometimes I forget that not everyone had a mis-sepnt shildhood... > > > will look at your suggestions. One thing I did (perhaps wrongly) was > measure > > the voltage with one probe connected to the casing, not to the other > pin on > > This problaby is not the right thing to do. The point is that you need > to > be able to pass a crurrent through the positioner coil in either > direction (one way will exert a force to move the heads towards the > spindle, the other way will exert a force to move the heads away form > the > spindle). Now if you had one side of the coil grounded (same voltage as > the chassis) yoy would need power supplies of both polarities wrt > ground > to be able to do that. > > What is more commonly done is a circuit based on what is called a 'full > H > driver. Basiecaly it means both sides of the load (the coil in this > case) > can be driven. If one side is pulled towards ground tand the otehr side > to, wayu, +12V, the heads moce one way. But if the first side is taken > to > +12V and hte second side to ground they move the other way. > > If oyu measure the voltage wrt ground on one end of the coil you are, > effectively, only testing half the circuit. There could still be a > fault. > > > the cable. I will try across the two pins to see what that is like. I > don't > > have a DC supply I can use to "blip" the coil, unless I can press the > PSU > > Sure you do. I bet you'd get some movement using a small battery. P > > > from my MicroVAX II into service for this? Is there a danger I might > pass > > too much current and burn the coil? > > There is, which is why you 'blip' it. Actually, a battery is probably > the > safest, a primary (non-recharageable) 9V battery is not going to supply > enough current to do much damage. > > -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 16 14:11:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 15:11:13 -0400 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF04351.8090700@neurotica.com> On 5/16/10 2:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I experienced the reverse situation. Somebody said to me 'do you want an > IBM compatible ethernet interface'. I was expecting an ISA card. What I > actually fot was a boc of electronics with Tag and Bus connectors on the > back to connect to an IBM 270 channel. Oh, and an AUI connector :-) Wow...I'll take that! =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun May 16 14:21:13 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 15:21:13 -0400 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <809064.80410.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com> On Sun, 16 May 2010 19:54:47 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: >> >> it is off-topic for me. I only collect IBM-incompatibles :) :( >I suspect we use that term in different ways. For me an 'IBM >incomaptible' is an 80x86-based machine that will not run IBM PC MS-DOS >(it may well run a customisd MS-DOS). Machinss like the HP110, HP150, >FTS-88, DEC Rainbow. >Of course there are plenty of other machines which are even more >incompativle. PDP11s, for example :-). >I experienced the reverse situation. Somebody said to me 'do you want an >IBM compatible ethernet interface'. I was expecting an ISA card. What I >actually fot was a boc of electronics with Tag and Bus connectors on the >back to connect to an IBM 270 channel. Oh, and an AUI connector :-) >-tony Very cool !!! The other Bob From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 16 15:28:21 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 16:28:21 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 Memory Problem In-Reply-To: <431165B692904B55B46171FD12D14B67@phildirt> (sfid-20100516_142322_093955_D4C15462) References: <431165B692904B55B46171FD12D14B67@phildirt> (sfid-20100516_142322_093955_D4C15462) Message-ID: <4BF05565.9080901@heeltoe.com> David J. Cooper wrote: > I have a MicroVAX 2000 motherboard which boots fine unless I plug in a 4MB memory expansion card. I already tried the following: > > [1] Attempted to boot with a different 4MB card. Doesn't work. > [2] Booted a different MicroVAX 2000 motherboard with the original memory card. Worked. > I don't have any info to offer, except to say that I have a box with what I think is about 3-4 different MV2000 cpu's + lots of memory. As I recall the memory is all daisy chained with a cable on the top of the boards (I've never worked on a mv2000, so sorry for my ignorance). I'd me more than happy to part with these if you (or anyone else) would like them - all I would ask is postage. I suppose I should put them on ebay, but I can't imagine they are worth much. I'm in Boston if you want to calculate shipping. As I recall I pulled at least one out of a BA-123 chassis - the "coffee table with wheels" size cabinet. -brad From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 16 15:31:06 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 16:31:06 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 Memory Problem In-Reply-To: <4BF05565.9080901@heeltoe.com> References: <431165B692904B55B46171FD12D14B67@phildirt> (sfid-20100516_142322_093955_D4C15462) <4BF05565.9080901@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4BF0560A.1080006@neurotica.com> On 5/16/10 4:28 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > David J. Cooper wrote: >> I have a MicroVAX 2000 motherboard which boots fine unless I plug in a >> 4MB memory expansion card. I already tried the following: >> >> [1] Attempted to boot with a different 4MB card. Doesn't work. >> [2] Booted a different MicroVAX 2000 motherboard with the original >> memory card. Worked. > I don't have any info to offer, except to say that I have a box with > what I think is about 3-4 different > MV2000 cpu's + lots of memory. As I recall the memory is all daisy > chained with a cable on the top > of the boards (I've never worked on a mv2000, so sorry for my ignorance). > > I'd me more than happy to part with these if you (or anyone else) would > like them - all I would ask is postage. I suppose I should > put them on ebay, but I can't imagine they are worth much. I'm in Boston > if you want to calculate shipping. > > As I recall I pulled at least one out of a BA-123 chassis - the "coffee > table with wheels" size cabinet. I think you're talking about MicroVAX-II, not MicroVAX-2000. They use the same CPU chip (78032) but the -2000 is a lunchbox-sized system with CPU, memory and some peripherals integrated on one board. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brad at heeltoe.com Sun May 16 15:36:39 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 16:36:39 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 Memory Problem In-Reply-To: <4BF0560A.1080006@neurotica.com> (sfid-20100516_163150_359659_F5716F19) References: <431165B692904B55B46171FD12D14B67@phildirt> (sfid-20100516_142322_093955_D4C15462) <4BF05565.9080901@heeltoe.com> <4BF0560A.1080006@neurotica.com> (sfid-20100516_163150_359659_F5716F19) Message-ID: <4BF05757.1080302@heeltoe.com> > I think you're talking about MicroVAX-II, not MicroVAX-2000. They > use the same CPU chip (78032) but the -2000 is a lunchbox-sized system > with CPU, memory and some peripherals integrated on one board. oops. yes. you're correct. And I even have one. sorry about that. -brad From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 16 15:53:56 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 21:53:56 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 Memory Problem In-Reply-To: <4BF05565.9080901@heeltoe.com> References: <431165B692904B55B46171FD12D14B67@phildirt> (sfid-20100516_142322_093955_D4C15462) <4BF05565.9080901@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <013001caf539$e81f8040$b85e80c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: 16 May 2010 21:28 > To: General at heeltoe.com; Discussion at heeltoe.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: MicroVAX/VAXstation 2000 Memory Problem > > David J. Cooper wrote: > > I have a MicroVAX 2000 motherboard which boots fine unless I plug in > a 4MB memory expansion card. I already tried the following: > > > > [1] Attempted to boot with a different 4MB card. Doesn't work. > > [2] Booted a different MicroVAX 2000 motherboard with the original > memory card. Worked. > > > I don't have any info to offer, except to say that I have a box with > what I think is about 3-4 different > MV2000 cpu's + lots of memory. As I recall the memory is all daisy > chained with a cable on the top > of the boards (I've never worked on a mv2000, so sorry for my > ignorance). > > I'd me more than happy to part with these if you (or anyone else) would > like them - all I would ask is postage. I suppose I should > put them on ebay, but I can't imagine they are worth much. I'm in > Boston if you want to calculate shipping. > > As I recall I pulled at least one out of a BA-123 chassis - the "coffee > table with wheels" size cabinet. > > -brad If you have MicroVAX II memory that you don't need, that would fit in a BA23 (not sure if it uses the same backplane as a BA123) then I would be happy to take them. I am in the UK and would pay whatever postage, particularly if you have any 8MB modules. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 16 16:29:05 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 22:29:05 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <012f01caf52b$d52c0070$7f840150$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <012e01caf523$1f582010$5e086030$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 16, 10 07:10:30 pm <012f01caf52b$d52c0070$7f840150$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <013101caf53e$d2444f30$76cced90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Yes "blipping" the coil with a 9V battery moves the heads. When the drive was powered on I also measured the voltage by attaching a probe to each end of the coil cable, in that case I measured about 1.3V only. So I am guessing the coil is OK. Next step is to swap the boards back again. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 16 May 2010 20:13 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: RD53 Restoration > > Thanks, never thought of the obvious, will dig out a 9V battery and try > that. > > Thanks again. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 16 May 2010 20:03 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: RD53 Restoration > > > > > > > > Many thanks for the reply. I am not an electronics expert > > unfortunately, but > > > > Alas sometimes I forget that not everyone had a mis-sepnt > shildhood... > > > > > will look at your suggestions. One thing I did (perhaps wrongly) > was > > measure > > > the voltage with one probe connected to the casing, not to the > other > > pin on > > > > This problaby is not the right thing to do. The point is that you > need > > to > > be able to pass a crurrent through the positioner coil in either > > direction (one way will exert a force to move the heads towards the > > spindle, the other way will exert a force to move the heads away form > > the > > spindle). Now if you had one side of the coil grounded (same voltage > as > > the chassis) yoy would need power supplies of both polarities wrt > > ground > > to be able to do that. > > > > What is more commonly done is a circuit based on what is called a > 'full > > H > > driver. Basiecaly it means both sides of the load (the coil in this > > case) > > can be driven. If one side is pulled towards ground tand the otehr > side > > to, wayu, +12V, the heads moce one way. But if the first side is > taken > > to > > +12V and hte second side to ground they move the other way. > > > > If oyu measure the voltage wrt ground on one end of the coil you are, > > effectively, only testing half the circuit. There could still be a > > fault. > > > > > the cable. I will try across the two pins to see what that is like. > I > > don't > > > have a DC supply I can use to "blip" the coil, unless I can press > the > > PSU > > > > Sure you do. I bet you'd get some movement using a small battery. P > > > > > from my MicroVAX II into service for this? Is there a danger I > might > > pass > > > too much current and burn the coil? > > > > There is, which is why you 'blip' it. Actually, a battery is probably > > the > > safest, a primary (non-recharageable) 9V battery is not going to > supply > > enough current to do much damage. > > > > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 16 17:22:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 15:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100516151957.O16989@shell.lmi.net> > > I didnt know about it till this thread started, I would like to go but > Yes, it seems to have been very badly advertised. The fist I heard about > it was a comment in passing in Computer Resurection. Evan mentioned it about 4 months ago. But there was little discussion ("Did Sellam approve the trademark use?", etc.), and I had forgotten about it, as well. Not that I would have gone, . . . I haven't even been able to go to the most recent ones in California, due to inadequately defenestrated college administrators. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 16 17:23:31 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 23:23:31 +0100 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF07063.4000007@philpem.me.uk> On 16/05/10 19:39, Tony Duell wrote: > Ouch. I can still just see the burn on the back of my hand where I > dropped solder on it years ago... I've got one on my right arm from leaning over the hot end of a hot-air soldering station while it was 'live'. The display read "COOLING: 40 C, but it turns out that was the setpoint, not the current temperature. Hot air burns HURT LIKE HELL. Didn't look like much at the time, but 9 months down the line I still have the scars. Then there's the mark on the back of my right hand from where the tinsnips fell off the hook above the door as I was leaving the shed. That almost completely umbed my hand for a good hour or two... I've also done "picking up the soldering iron from the wrong end", and I've had one or two mains plugs with duff screw inserts -- the entire back of one of the plugs shattered when I tried to unplug it, allowing the palm of my hand to form a very nice low-resistance path over the phase and neutral lines. Bzzzzzkt! One of the many things neither a 13-amp plug fuse or an RCD (RCCB) circuit breaker will protect you from. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 16 17:28:38 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 23:28:38 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BF07196.2030503@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/05/2010 01:00, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage > Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th > of June at Bletchley Park? I'm going, possibly assisting even, but I've not made any particular arrangements yet. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun May 16 17:59:56 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 15:59:56 -0700 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:06 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Nice!. I rememebr buying my first PC-family machine -- an IBM 5160. I > > [...] > >> Oh yes... my first IBM PC was a 5150 with dual-floppy drives and a CGA >> display. ?I went and bought a Quadram Quadboard, filled it with 384K > > I forgot to mention. My first 5160 was a dual-floppy model (no hard > disk). Yes that configuration was official. Both floppy drives have the > IBM logo on the faceplate. > > It took me a long time to find a CGA card for it. I could get a clone one > from the local PC shop back then, but that was one ASIC and a bit of RAM. > I wanted (and eventually got) the full-length IBM one with a 6845 and > rows of TTL packages. > > On the other hand I was less fussy about the serial card. The clone one > of those was a couple lf 8250s, 1488s, 1489s and TTL for the address > decoder. Trivial to produce a schematic of and keep going. > > This XT now has 4 floppy drives (2 3.5" ones in an external cabinet), 2 > hard drives (again in the extenral cabinet), MDA, CGA, 4 serial ports, a > 24 line 'user port' and so on. Of course I did the modification and put > 640K of RAM on the motherboard. > >> and dove right in. ?I later bought an XT controller and a 10 MB hard >> drive so that I could run PC/ix (which I am still looking for; I have > > I bought Minix for mine. > > [...] > >> > I really don't like this cavalier approach of getting something out of >> > storage and powering it up without doing any tests first. But anyway... >> >> Neither do I, but I take what I can get. :) > > Oh, so do I... > > -tony Ok, I had to make another trip out to Weird Stuff today (I was in the neighborhood to pick up some prescriptions, so I thought "Why not?"), and I walked away with a few more bargains that will help build up my PC software collection. 1) Ashton-Tate's dBase IV 1.0 - looks to be complete with even the registration card 2) Ashton-Tate's Framework XE - sealed 3) WRQ's Reflection 1 for DOS - complete, even with bonus mouse pad I plan on using Reflection as a front end terminal emulator for my VAXen and HP 3000. The best part was that these all fell into the $5 category. Even my girlfriend was impressed, as two of these were good-sized boxes. Oh, and I picked up a pastic 5-1/4" diskette holder (the snap kind that holds 10 diskettes) for 50 cents. Not a bad Sunday! Mark From rogpugh at mac.com Sun May 16 18:00:19 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 00:00:19 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <17251B84-DF92-4C39-8E6A-ED30577E8220@microspot.co.uk> References: <17251B84-DF92-4C39-8E6A-ED30577E8220@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4BF07903.2000805@mac.com> > Possibly, I am roughly equidistant from M20 J8 and J9. Where are you? > > If I arrange to share a car I won't let apathy reign on the day. > > My best MPG car is about 23 so maybe not one of mine though my supercharged Daimler V8 is very luxurious, it only does 17 mpg! > > Roger Holmes. > > Roger I'm a few miles south of Gatwick on the M23 Transport options are 55MPG SAAB 9-3 30MPG Citroen Berlingo 19MPG Bristol So forgetting the gas guzzler classic its a SAAB 4dr or a Van with seats for more load capacity. roger From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun May 16 18:52:19 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 16:52:19 -0700 Subject: Alignment Diskettes In-Reply-To: <4BF07903.2000805@mac.com> Message-ID: -Sigh- I figured I'd have no problem finding alignment diskettes for 40 track SS, 40 track DS, and 80 track HD DS diskettes (since google searches always pulled up about half a dozen companies selling them) and there always seemed to be a couple companies on Epay selling them. Now that I'm in the market for them, (got probes for my scope) I can't find the bloody things :( Anyone have any pointers to places selling them, also may be looking for 3.5" alignment diskettes. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 16 19:38:16 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100516173205.P16989@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 16 May 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Alternately, what other approaches have folks used? The TRS80 sometimes had edge connector issues (corrosion, etc.) For a while, there was a company making gold-plate MALE edge connector IDC connectors (34 and 40 pin); with a few inch long "edge connector extension", it was possible to significantly reduce the frequency of connecting and disconnecting the edge connectors. With some dremeling away of the female connector, it was possible to solder small wires to the connections. For a little while, a similar looking male edge connector was available without staggered pins, that could be shoved onto the flaky edge connector and soldered. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 16 19:41:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 81, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100516173935.N16989@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 13 May 2010 les at frii.com wrote: > If the 100w bulb is not brighter than the 40w bulb, why would they make > 100w bulbs? Just to waste energy? I realize that watts is not a measure > of brightness, but for any given technology, the higher wattage bulb is > brighter. When wired in PARALLEL. Those bulbs were not designed for use with SERIES wiring, and the results are different, for THAT given technology, the higher wattage bulb is NOT necessarily brighter. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 16 19:49:59 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:49:59 -0700 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win againstpatent troll...) In-Reply-To: References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net> <4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BF092B7.40309@brouhaha.com> On 05/16/2010 08:50 AM, RodSmallwood wrote: > So what is going to replace the Shuttle and when? > Originally the plan was to replace it with two systems: * crew launched in an Orion capsule on an Ares I * cargo (heavy lift) launched on an Ares V Obama and the NASA administrator want to cancel Ares I, but Congress might block that. Ares I is an incredibly stupid design, but if we cancel it we will have no capability of launching manned missions at all. The NASA plan is to contract that out to private industry, and I'm generally in favor of that, but we shouldn't kill NASA's in-house manned launch capability until the private alternative has been successfully tested. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 16 19:52:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:52:58 -0700 Subject: Alignment Diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <4BF07903.2000805@mac.com>, Message-ID: <4BF030FA.20774.236800C@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2010 at 16:52, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Anyone have any pointers to places selling them, also may be looking > for 3.5" alignment diskettes. Accurite sells alignment (both analog and digital): http://www.accurite.com/Products.html They're not cheap. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 16 20:03:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 18:03:23 -0700 Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: <20100516173205.P16989@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20100516173205.P16989@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BF0336B.8790.240084B@cclist.sydex.com> If you're just concerned about the plating, there's a solution: http://www.circuitmedic.com/products/201-6100.shtml http://www.engineeringlab.com/contactrepair.html Pace has a ThermoBond CirKit to replace missing conductors: http://www.paceworldwide.com/product/view/id/477.html --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 16 20:14:17 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 21:14:17 -0400 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win againstpatent troll...) In-Reply-To: <4BF092B7.40309@brouhaha.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net> <4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com> <4BF092B7.40309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BF09869.2040101@atarimuseum.com> Yes, lets pour billions into a launch system - then can it right after the first (successful) test flight... so typical of govt... do I get my money back if Obama won't use an already invested design? If they want to go private industry - great, then share the system designs with those private companies and have them continue the project and work, don't toss it into the dumpster, thats just S-T-U-P-I-D... though I put nothing past govt anymore :-/ Eric Smith wrote: > On 05/16/2010 08:50 AM, RodSmallwood wrote: >> So what is going to replace the Shuttle and when? >> > Originally the plan was to replace it with two systems: > > * crew launched in an Orion capsule on an Ares I > > * cargo (heavy lift) launched on an Ares V > > Obama and the NASA administrator want to cancel Ares I, but Congress > might block that. > > Ares I is an incredibly stupid design, but if we cancel it we will > have no capability of launching manned missions at all. The NASA plan > is to contract that out to private industry, and I'm generally in > favor of that, but we shouldn't kill NASA's in-house manned launch > capability until the private alternative has been successfully tested. > > Eric > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun May 16 21:43:04 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 23:43:04 -0300 Subject: Alignment Diskettes References: <4BF07903.2000805@mac.com>, <4BF030FA.20774.236800C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <073801caf56a$b5259cc0$170e00bd@portajara> > Accurite sells alignment (both analog and digital): > http://www.accurite.com/Products.html > They're not cheap. Maybe not for hobbists, but I wouldn't mind paying $65 in an analog alignment diskette for 720K 3 1/2" use. I still have many 720k drives around, some HP gear uses them :) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun May 16 21:47:52 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 22:47:52 -0400 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps winagainstpatent troll...) References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com><4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300><4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com><995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net><4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com><4BF092B7.40309@brouhaha.com> <4BF09869.2040101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: You sound like a poker player who is down Billions and thinks if he keeps playing he can dig himself out. The fact is this country is broke, spending another dime sending man off the earth is a waste of money we do not have. Private companies can send satellites into orbit, and NASA has the money and rockets to send robots into the solar system as needed. We will never give the plans for our rockets out since they have military uses (if you can get a payload into space you can drop one anywhere on the earth). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps winagainstpatent troll...) > Yes, lets pour billions into a launch system - then can it right after the > first (successful) test flight... so typical of govt... do I get my money > back if Obama won't use an already invested design? If they want to go > private industry - great, then share the system designs with those private > companies and have them continue the project and work, don't toss it into > the dumpster, thats just S-T-U-P-I-D... though I put nothing past govt > anymore :-/ > > > > > Eric Smith wrote: >> On 05/16/2010 08:50 AM, RodSmallwood wrote: >>> So what is going to replace the Shuttle and when? >>> >> Originally the plan was to replace it with two systems: >> >> * crew launched in an Orion capsule on an Ares I >> >> * cargo (heavy lift) launched on an Ares V >> >> Obama and the NASA administrator want to cancel Ares I, but Congress >> might block that. >> >> Ares I is an incredibly stupid design, but if we cancel it we will have >> no capability of launching manned missions at all. The NASA plan is to >> contract that out to private industry, and I'm generally in favor of >> that, but we shouldn't kill NASA's in-house manned launch capability >> until the private alternative has been successfully tested. >> >> Eric >> >> From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Sun May 16 22:32:30 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 22:32:30 -0500 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win againstpatent troll...) In-Reply-To: <4BF09869.2040101@atarimuseum.com> References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com> <4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300> <4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com> <995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net> <4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com> <4BF092B7.40309@brouhaha.com> <4BF09869.2040101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <6B6209A4-1821-480D-A4B5-4E257DAEE000@bellsouth.net> NASA might be in charge of the Ares design, but they sure aren't the ones building it. It's contracted out to private companies, some design in house and some outside. I don't think that the know-how is going to just vanish because NASA isn't pulling all the strings anymore. On May 16, 2010, at 8:14 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yes, lets pour billions into a launch system - then can it right after the first (successful) test flight... so typical of govt... do I get my money back if Obama won't use an already invested design? If they want to go private industry - great, then share the system designs with those private companies and have them continue the project and work, don't toss it into the dumpster, thats just S-T-U-P-I-D... though I put nothing past govt anymore :-/ > > > > > Eric Smith wrote: >> On 05/16/2010 08:50 AM, RodSmallwood wrote: >>> So what is going to replace the Shuttle and when? >>> >> Originally the plan was to replace it with two systems: >> >> * crew launched in an Orion capsule on an Ares I >> >> * cargo (heavy lift) launched on an Ares V >> >> Obama and the NASA administrator want to cancel Ares I, but Congress might block that. >> >> Ares I is an incredibly stupid design, but if we cancel it we will have no capability of launching manned missions at all. The NASA plan is to contract that out to private industry, and I'm generally in favor of that, but we shouldn't kill NASA's in-house manned launch capability until the private alternative has been successfully tested. >> >> Eric >> >> From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun May 16 22:49:17 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 23:49:17 -0400 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps winagainstpatent troll...) In-Reply-To: References: , <9A981465-8631-4DEE-B658-7F95E8AB57B5@neurotica.com>, , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com><4BEDA4EB.8060406@comcast.net> <0CD862CCBB044B4FAE8CFBF6A087B8EF@dell8300><4BEDAEFD.7060705@comcast.net><4BEDB00D.1060002@neurotica.com><995081.978.qm@web83912.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4BEDB46E.1060407@neurotica.com><168218.87943.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4BEDB7E3.5030406@neurotica.com> <4BEDBCD7.90007@jetnet.ab.ca> <947241.46565.qm@web83911.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><874BB6A5-DA41-4C80-99A3-D4F4DD70DCDA@bellsouth.net><4BEDFE94.2000601@brouhaha.com><4BF092B7.40309@brouhaha.com> <4BF09869.2040101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4BF0BCBD.1030502@atarimuseum.com> Yes, we are broke, but at the same time we're gonna be paying Russia like $30 mill per astronaut to go up in one of their cold war era gumball spacecraft. When I was mentioning private industry, I meant those that are trusted US contractor, I wasn't saying lets outsource to "Kim Il Jon Spaceworks" or "Amedinjad Flight Systems" or the like ;-) Teo Zenios wrote: > You sound like a poker player who is down Billions and thinks if he > keeps playing he can dig himself out. The fact is this country is > broke, spending another dime sending man off the earth is a waste of > money we do not have. Private companies can send satellites into > orbit, and NASA has the money and rockets to send robots into the > solar system as needed. > > We will never give the plans for our rockets out since they have > military uses (if you can get a payload into space you can drop one > anywhere on the earth). > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 9:14 PM > Subject: Re: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps > winagainstpatent troll...) > > >> Yes, lets pour billions into a launch system - then can it right >> after the first (successful) test flight... so typical of govt... do >> I get my money back if Obama won't use an already invested design? >> If they want to go private industry - great, then share the system >> designs with those private companies and have them continue the >> project and work, don't toss it into the dumpster, thats just >> S-T-U-P-I-D... though I put nothing past govt anymore :-/ >> >> >> >> >> Eric Smith wrote: >>> On 05/16/2010 08:50 AM, RodSmallwood wrote: >>>> So what is going to replace the Shuttle and when? >>>> >>> Originally the plan was to replace it with two systems: >>> >>> * crew launched in an Orion capsule on an Ares I >>> >>> * cargo (heavy lift) launched on an Ares V >>> >>> Obama and the NASA administrator want to cancel Ares I, but Congress >>> might block that. >>> >>> Ares I is an incredibly stupid design, but if we cancel it we will >>> have no capability of launching manned missions at all. The NASA >>> plan is to contract that out to private industry, and I'm generally >>> in favor of that, but we shouldn't kill NASA's in-house manned >>> launch capability until the private alternative has been >>> successfully tested. >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 16 23:09:32 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 21:09:32 -0700 Subject: Alignment Diskettes In-Reply-To: <073801caf56a$b5259cc0$170e00bd@portajara> References: <4BF07903.2000805@mac.com>, , <4BF030FA.20774.236800C@cclist.sydex.com>, <073801caf56a$b5259cc0$170e00bd@portajara> Message-ID: Hi I'm relatively sure the track alignment is the same as the 1.44. You should be able to use a 1.44M alignment disk. You won't be able to do a write/read test but you can use a 720K disk for that. Dwight > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > > > Accurite sells alignment (both analog and digital): > > http://www.accurite.com/Products.html > > They're not cheap. > > Maybe not for hobbists, but I wouldn't mind paying $65 in an analog > alignment diskette for 720K 3 1/2" use. > > I still have many 720k drives around, some HP gear uses them :) > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From elazzerini at interfree.it Sun May 16 13:49:52 2010 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 20:49:52 +0200 Subject: Microcornucopia Magazine - Url correct Message-ID: Hi, i correct the 2nd wrong url. Hi at all, today i begun to scan my issues. At this moment i done MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.14 Oct 1983 http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf and MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.16 Feb 1984 http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.16_Feb_1984.pdf Is out there who has issues from 1 to 11 and would scan some his issues??? I think this would be the only change we have to : - gain issues we not have - save this wonderful past and defunt magazine Regards Enrico From pinball at telus.net Sun May 16 15:57:15 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 13:57:15 -0700 Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF05C2B.2000200@telus.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > There are many outfits offering repair kits for PCB edge connectors, > but all of them are $2-300. That's complete overkill for the one or > two repairs per year I might need to perform. > > If I purchase a "frame" of dry-adhesive backed traces from Circuit > Medic, what are the chances of using a temperature-controlled bench > iron to bond them? Anyone have experience with this? I can see > making the $40 investment if it has even a chance of working. > > Alternately, what other approaches have folks used? > > Steve > Here is an outfit that sells rework kits for PCBs - and a link to the page of Circuit Frames: http://www.engineeringlab.com/circuitframes.html These look very promissing, I have a rework kit from PACE dated in the 1980s that I am still working through, but this site is great - I will be ordering some of their frames for my shop and would sell a few pads if asked nicely... John :-#)# flippers.com From holland at pacbell.net Sun May 16 16:15:26 2010 From: holland at pacbell.net (Bruce Holland) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 14:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: radio shack 28-249 manual Message-ID: <743675.61079.qm@web81507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Sorry about my first email. It was late and my back was killing me. I would appreciate very much if I could some how get a copy of the manual for my 200 in one project kit. I am 60 yrs of age and disabled and have time on my hands.? I graduated in electronics, head of the class, but I still like basic things... like this kit. ? ??? Sincerely, ????????????????? Bruce Holland From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 16 16:49:47 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 16 May 2010, dwight elvey wrote: >> There are many outfits offering repair kits for PCB edge connectors, but >> all of them are $2-300. That's complete overkill for the one or two >> repairs per year I might need to perform. >> >> If I purchase a "frame" of dry-adhesive backed traces from Circuit Medic, >> what are the chances of using a temperature-controlled bench iron to bond >> them? Anyone have experience with this? I can see making the $40 >> investment if it has even a chance of working. >> >> Alternately, what other approaches have folks used? > If it is really bad, I cut another scrap boards connector up with > a fine bimetal hacksaw. I then epoxy the new connector or part > of connector on. When set, I reconnect traces with hookup wire. > Place tape on gold fingers to keep accidental solder from running > on them. That's a last resort in the current case. I'd rather not hack up the board unless all else fails. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 16 16:54:04 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: memory emulators, eprom programmers, embedded, etc. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 May 2010, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Hi, > > I querry all the sages out there for your recommendations for a > romulator and burner set of tools. > > What I would like to have is a emulator tool like a USB device and a set > of socket adapters (DIP and J lead for network cards); > > Some command line tools or open source that would let me pipe the result > of a comple and link within a IDE, like eclipse (OK emacs if I must) for > the compile debug test cycle; Parallax used to make an inexpensive little ROM emulator that interfaced to a parallel printer port. Maybe keep an eye on e-bay or hamfest? Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Sun May 16 19:38:29 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 17:38:29 -0700 Subject: Microcornucopia Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF09005.6030601@jwsss.com> On 5/16/2010 6:27 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Hi at all, > today i begun to scan my issues. At this moment i done > > MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.14 Oct 1983 > http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf > > and > > MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.16 Feb 1984 > http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf > link should be http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.16_Feb_1984.pdf > Is out there who has issues from 1 to 11 and would scan some his issues??? > > I think this would be the only change we have to : > - gain issues we not have > - save this wonderful past and defunt magazine > > Regards > Enrico > Thanks Enrico for sharing Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun May 16 19:59:06 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 20:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: <20100516173205.P16989@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100516173205.P16989@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 May 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 16 May 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Alternately, what other approaches have folks used? > > The TRS80 sometimes had edge connector issues (corrosion, etc.) > > For a while, there was a company making gold-plate MALE edge connector IDC > connectors (34 and 40 pin); with a few inch long "edge connector > extension", it was possible to significantly reduce the frequency of > connecting and disconnecting the edge connectors. With some dremeling > away of the female connector, it was possible to solder small wires to the > connections. > > For a little while, a similar looking male edge connector was available > without staggered pins, that could be shoved onto the flaky edge connector > and soldered. I've seen those. In my case, I'm trying to repair an Apple 2 card and would need a 50-pin male. -- From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 17 00:06:31 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 01:06:31 -0400 Subject: Amiga 1000 helps win against patent troll... In-Reply-To: <4BED643F.32382.15E85C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BED127A.7243.1F1DA3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BED643F.32382.15E85C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BF0CED7.9010901@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I've talked with a number of people from large technology companies >> who patent anything and everything just to proactively defend against >> such carpetbaggers. Unfortunately, then management changes, business >> philosophy changes and the patent thicket gets more and more dense.... > > And sadly, the USPTO pretty much asserts that it can no longer > examine patent applications with any scrutiny. I am aware of at > least one patent granted in the last decade for a perpetual-motion > machine, for example. Got a link? I'd love to read that patent. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 17 00:29:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 May 2010 22:29:14 -0700 Subject: Alignment Diskettes In-Reply-To: References: <4BF07903.2000805@mac.com>, <073801caf56a$b5259cc0$170e00bd@portajara>, Message-ID: <4BF071BA.6465.3336D41@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 May 2010 at 21:09, dwight elvey wrote: > I'm relatively sure the track alignment is the same > as the 1.44. You should be able to use a 1.44M alignment > disk. I think it depends on the disk, Dwight. A 720K drive may not have enough read-channel "headroom" to handle a disk made for 1.44MB drives. But yes, the tracks are in the same locations. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 17 00:35:38 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 01:35:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100515131448.S79485@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100515131448.S79485@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BF0D5AA.3090004@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > You don't need to take anything. You can meet people, see what others are > up to, browse the sales area, study the exhibits, and get a feel for > whether it is worth chartering a lorry for next time. > > How much would the minimum cost to attend be? If you have a Paypal > account, some of the rest of us could make small contributions towards > getting you there. I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly would contribute to such a purpose. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 17 00:38:03 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 01:38:03 -0400 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF0D63B.7030804@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > It's fun to read this stuff. I didn't realize microchannel was > available from anyone but IBM. And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. :-) > > http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ Tandy wasn't the only other company making MCA machines. NCR made quite a few different models. I believe Siemens made one or two as well. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 17 00:46:25 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 01:46:25 -0400 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 In-Reply-To: <4BEF4A84.2040206@neurotica.com> References: <4BEF4A84.2040206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BF0D831.70004@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> It's fun to read this stuff. I didn't realize microchannel was >> available from anyone but IBM. And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. :-) >> >> http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ > > MicroChannel *cards* were also made by (at least) 3Com and Silicon > Graphics. (Unless SGI only designed that fancy MCA video card for IBM > and let IBM make it...anybody know? Sridhar, you still have the one you > got from me a dozen or so years ago, right?) I still have it. It still works. And it has SGI manufacturing stickers on it. And there were literally *dozens* of companies making MicroChannel *cards*. SysKonnect made an MCA FDDI card. AST made processor and memory upgrades. Adaptec made SCSI cards. ATI made a couple generations of video cards. Creative Labs made a couple generations of SoundBlaster sound cards. AdLib had an MCA card. Roland made an MPU-401 interface card for MCA. I even have a pile of MCA 10/100(!) ethernet cards for PS/2 made by Olicom, new in box. And that's not even talking about the giant pile of cards made by a variety of manufacturers for MCA RS/6000s. There were more than half a dozen companies making the *systems*. Peace... Sridhar From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon May 17 01:14:23 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 07:14:23 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" atMay15, 10 01:00:36 am Message-ID: <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> Good point! It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation people. One of everything but nothing flies. I just hate that. If something was built to run and can run again with out damage it should. As to volunteering, it's clear that many of us would spend as much time traveling to BP as they would doing something useful whilst there. Not to mention the cost. I do have an idea. Why not farm out some of the stuff in storage to those of us who have restored a similar item in the past for themselves? I'm sure a small card saying 'Restored to working order by Joe Bloggs' would but reward enough. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson Sent: 16 May 2010 18:53 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK? TNMoC is indeed full of old systems, wonderfully so. After the DEC Legacy event in Windermere last month, Ian King and I traveled down to London, then went up to BP on the Monday. (Not their usual open day, but they took pity on us for our traveling schedule. Barney Duffy, volunteer extraordinaire, was our guide.) For a VCF event, though, isn't much of the point to show off one's own gems? TNMoC may have near as makes no difference to one of everything PC from the last 40 years, but they don't have the funds or volunteers to keep each and every one of them running, so for that kind of thing coals to Newcastle is a necessity, hmm? Just my 2d worth. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RodSmallwood Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:55 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK? Coal's to Newcastle? By all accounts BP is already full of old systems. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 15 May 2010 19:37 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage=20 > Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th=20 > of June at Bletchley Park? Alas not. This is for several rasons, mostly financial. Had I heard about it early enough (why wasn't it seriously discused here) I would have tired to get along and bring one of my interesting toys. But as it is, I didn't have time to prepare anything. It would cost significant money for me to get from here to Bletchley Park, and then there's the entrance fee. I don't think it's worth it. -tony From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon May 17 01:17:00 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 07:17:00 +0100 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: By definition you have an original classic. Well done! -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davidson Sent: 14 May 2010 21:58 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... I don't know if anyone on the list will care of not, but I just purchased a classic IBM PC (original model 5150) with a monochrome card and monitor for $45 on EBay. According to the seller, it was in storage at a museum for 18 years. They pulled it out, dusted it and it booted DOS right away. It's a dual-floppy model. I won't know more until it arrives, but it was sitting at zero bids until I bid on it with < 15 minutes left in the auction. The description the seller had used was a bit misleading and seemed to imply only the monitor was for sale, but I confirmed it was the entire system. I thought that was a pretty good deal, considering how much I paid for my first IBM PC back in 1983 or so. :) After that, I was at Weird Stuff Warehouse and they were asking $100 just for the monochrome monitor! But, while there, I did pick up some software bargains: A sealed copy of CA-CommonView (C++ GUI Library) for OS/2 for $3 and a copy of SCO Unixware 7 (appears complete) for $5. I love Weird Stuff! Feel free to ignore this if it's too off-topic for the list. :) Mark From andy at flirble.org Mon May 17 02:25:35 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 08:25:35 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <20100517072535.GB90914@plum.flirble.org> I plan to head along, but won't be taking anything as I doubt my SBC6120 kit will have arrived by then, and the various VAXen and PDP-11 are all missing vital parts to bring them back to life (RD* disks in the main). On (07:14 17/05/10), RodSmallwood wrote: > Good point! > > It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation people. One of > everything but nothing flies. I just hate that. If something was built to > run and can run again with out damage it should. I'm sure they hate it too, which is why they are valiantly trying to get as much running as is humanly possible with the resources they have. Compare this to the CHM in the US or the Science Museum, which would much rather have machines preserved in aspic. This is the norm for museums, as they argue that exhibits will deteriorate faster if they are put to use. > As to volunteering, it's clear that many of us would spend as much time > traveling to BP as they would doing something useful whilst there. Not to > mention the cost. I used to volunteer in locomotive engineering on a preserved steam railway in West Yorkshire (where the original Railway Children was filmed), and travelled up from London every other weekend for a few years. Then moved to Glasgow and travelled down for around the same time (this becoming a ~4 hour journey). Numerous folks travelled up from London & SE, with one eventually buying a small house locally in addition to retaining a place in the south (he was up every weekend). I guess it's a matter of commitment and priorities etc. I say this as a non-volunteer, as whilst I think TNMOC is amazing and would love to help, I've made other commitments and thus for the foreseeable it cannot be a priority for me. > I do have an idea. Why not farm out some of the stuff in storage to those of > us who have restored a similar item in the past for themselves? > I'm sure a small card saying 'Restored to working order by Joe Bloggs' would > but reward enough. Perhaps not a bad idea, if it can be made to work within whatever conditions have been set out by the donors (I understand there is kit from the Science Museum stores etc). Regards, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon May 17 03:47:41 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 01:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Alignment Diskettes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <815063.95162.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 5/16/10, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Anyone have any pointers to places selling them, also may > be looking for 3.5" alignment diskettes. Try www.accurite.com. They are the successor to Dysan's alignment disk business. Look "Floppy Drive Diagnostics" at the end of the "Products' page: http://www.accurite.com/Products.html http://www.accurite.com/AAD.html --Bill From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon May 17 07:10:27 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:10:27 +0200 Subject: Digital VIVACE Message-ID: Hello All, Anybody familiar with an old DEC product called 'VIVACE'? It looks like it is a package for Win 3.11. Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon May 17 08:51:20 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 09:51:20 -0400 Subject: Microcornucopia Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Enrico, Thank you very much for posting. I've never seen these before. This will make for a good read tonight. Rob On May 16, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Hi at all, > today i begun to scan my issues. At this moment i done > > MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.14 Oct 1983 > http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf > > and > > MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.16 Feb 1984 > http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf > > Is out there who has issues from 1 to 11 and would scan some his issues??? > > I think this would be the only change we have to : > - gain issues we not have > - save this wonderful past and defunt magazine > > Regards > Enrico Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon May 17 09:43:14 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 07:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36595.98364.qm@web55302.mail.re4.yahoo.com> My first PC was not a real IBM 5150/5160, it was a clone called the "American PC". It was a Taiwanese clone, and I got it from the company I worked for at the time which was an American Dealer. He was a bit unscrupulous as he would replace the BIOS it shipped with from Taiwan with home-blown IBM Bios chips. My system had 640k, was a "Turbo" system, and I replaced the 8088 with a V20. I still have the 8088 chip in my chip box. I also got it with two 360k drives, and two ST-213 drives which were 10mb versions of the ST-225. I even had a 2400bps Modem for it. It was in a case that looked like a 5150, but had a flip top like a car hood. It was a pretty nice system. I used it to run my BBS at the time, running TBBS software. It had a Clone CGA card that I attached to a Composite Zenith Green Screen display. I think this was circa 1983. I remember going to TCF and seeing the IBM 5150 Cassette units there for about $1000.00US. I really wanted one of those. I think I ended up paying about that for this one. I ended up selling it when I built a 286 system a few years later. I'm kinda sorry I did. It was a nice system for the time. I have a 5150 board built into a clone XT case right now. It only has 256k, so I need to configure one of the two RAM cards I have for it to bring it up to 640k. I put an 8bit OAK Video card in it that does MDA/MGA/CGA/EGA/VGA. So, I can use any monitor I can find on it. I do still have the PC style keyboard from that first system. I loved it so much, I couldn't part with it. Now, it will get use on this one. I found a 40mg Hard Drive on a card that I will use in the system. Al Keansburg, NJ From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon May 17 09:48:11 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 07:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps winagainstpatent troll...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <903522.57121.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I've always wanted to give Burt Rutan a run at a Space Shuttle replacement. I bet he'd do something really nice. His White Knight/Spaceship One combo seems pretty innovative. But, that's not intended to be a Shuttle replacement. Al From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 17 10:42:17 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:42:17 -0500 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 23:07 -0500 5/15/10, Fred wrote: >Could somebody please give Tony a ride to it? > >Tony, >GO! Seconded. Most useful post I've seen in weeks. Where do I send contributions? Assuming we can make this a zero-sum game (go vs. not go) for Tony's finances, I'd like to do that. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 17 10:43:45 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:43:45 -0500 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? Message-ID: At 23:07 -0500 5/15/10, Fred wrote: >Could somebody please give Tony a ride to it? > >Tony, >GO! Seconded. Most useful post I've seen in weeks. Where do I send contributions? Assuming we can make this a zero-sum game (go vs. not go) for Tony's finances, I'd like to do that. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 17 11:14:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 12:14:23 -0400 Subject: Microcornucopia Magazine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF16B5F.1020407@neurotica.com> Yes, thank you! Please post more! -Dave On 5/17/10 9:51 AM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Hi Enrico, > Thank you very much for posting. I've never seen these before. > This will make for a good read tonight. > > Rob > > On May 16, 2010, at 9:27 AM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > >> Hi at all, >> today i begun to scan my issues. At this moment i done >> >> MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.14 Oct 1983 >> http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf >> >> and >> >> MICRO CORNUCOPIA No.16 Feb 1984 >> http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini/MICRO_CORNUCOPIA_No.14_Oct_1983.pdf >> >> Is out there who has issues from 1 to 11 and would scan some his issues??? >> >> I think this would be the only change we have to : >> - gain issues we not have >> - save this wonderful past and defunt magazine >> >> Regards >> Enrico > > > > Rob Borsuk > email: rborsuk at colourfull.com > Colourfull Creations > Web: http://www.colourfull.com > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 17 11:02:56 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:02:56 -0500 Subject: Mac Classic problems Message-ID: All, Got a Mac Classic, swapped non-functional hard drive, installed RAM, nearly got it working for my 10-year-old. But.... First pass, no sound out. Not speaker, not headphone connector. Wait, if you hold your ear right up against it, you hear a *little* bit. Hm. Second pass, a week or so later, won't boot. Hmm. Opened it back up, looked over everything ... what's this? There's some stuff on the digital board. Wonder what could leave an oily stain, and how it got there in the first place without leaving tracks on the inside of the case, the CRT, the disk drives, etc. etc.? Well, won't hurt to clean it off, I thought ... then the penny dropped and I realized that there were *three* little islands of gunge, and they were centered on the three groups of what look like my favorite nemesis .... capacitors! Many q-tips and much isopropanol later, it boots, but it's still quiet - too quiet - and I have a bad feeling about how long it'll keep running before I have to clean it again. There's a bit of corrosion on one lead of the sound chip, but I can still hear a very very faint edition of the sound it's supposed to make. The Classic has a surface-mount digital board. The components I suspect are metal can devices, lots of them with the same marking (which I neglected to write down) and one different. Each has a tiny flat plastic-looking isolator or something between it and the logic board. 1) Is there a preferred solvent I can squirt under those things and the sound chip that'll pick up capacitor gunge (or whatever it is) better than Isopropanol? Is the old standby dihydrogen monoxide a good bet? (I have plenty of that.) 2) If (sigh. When) I have to pull those things off, I will need a hot-air soldering station, correct? My thought is, cut up an aluminum can to make an air dam isolating the cap. from the rest of the board, then blast it with hot air until it flies off or vaporizes. Is that close to right? 3) How do I get replacements, and how do I slap those back down on the board? Is the code on the top all I need to order more? Hints appreciated. Hm. Come to think, maybe I better double-check that the swapped-out hard drive was really dead. The SCSI port might have been the first casualty of the capacitor scourge. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon May 17 11:38:45 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:38:45 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 May 2010, at 04:49, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 15 > Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 00:00:19 +0100 > From: Roger Pugh > Subject: > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4BF07903.2000805 at mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > >> Possibly, I am roughly equidistant from M20 J8 and J9. Where are you? >> >> If I arrange to share a car I won't let apathy reign on the day. >> >> My best MPG car is about 23 so maybe not one of mine though my supercharged Daimler V8 is very luxurious, it only does 17 mpg! >> >> Roger Holmes. >> >> > Roger > I'm a few miles south of Gatwick on the M23 > > Transport options are > > 55MPG SAAB 9-3 > 30MPG Citroen Berlingo > 19MPG Bristol > > So forgetting the gas guzzler classic its a SAAB 4dr or a Van with seats > for more load capacity. > > > roger Hi Roger, I'll mull that over, Gatwick is over an hour away. I guess it depends if you go clockwise or anti-clockwise around the M25 (or through the middle of London). My main classic computer is too big to take (Needs a couple of tail lift lorries and 3 months to re-assemble). Roger. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 17 11:43:20 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 09:43:20 -0700 Subject: Mac Classic problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF17228.1070106@bitsavers.org> On 5/17/10 9:02 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: > Opened it back up, looked over everything ... what's this? Leaking electrolytic capacitors. VERY common problem with this generation of Mac. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 17 11:49:02 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 09:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac Classic problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <845855.76260.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Mark Tapley wrote: > 1) Is there a preferred solvent Use isopropyl alcohol to clean up the goo. Remove the caps and clean under them before replacing. > 2) If (sigh. When) I have to pull those things off, I will > need a hot-air soldering station, correct? No - you can do it easily with a standard pencil iron. I've done a few SE-30's with no problems. > 3) How do I get replacements, and how do I slap those back > down on the board? Is the code on the top all I need to > order more? You can replace them with any equivilent capacitor. You just need the proper capacity (microfarads, or uf), and voltage rating. Ideally, you'd replace them with surface mount parts of the same size, but I've done it with regular through-hole leaded caps before, just trim both leads to the same length, bend out the bottoms 90 degrees into little "feet", and solder them down. Replacing these caps is not hard. Just heat the joint with the iron and gently lift that side of the cap up, repeat on the other side. Clean around and under the cap with isopropyl. Tin the pads on the board and solder on a replacement (noting the polarity). -Ian From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon May 17 11:53:35 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:53:35 +0100 Subject: Anyone want a Creed teleprinter or got an Elliott paper tape reader head ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9231E882-0ADA-4B36-96BB-D0D0A57038A5@microspot.co.uk> I am still after an Elliott paper tape reader head, preferably 1000cps but the 300cps would be acceptable. I have a Creed 7E which is a 5 bit teleprinter. The covers are missing and I have not tried powering it up yet. Someone has attached a DIN audio type plug to it, and a friend suggested maybe it had been connected up to a BBC micro. Anyone want to do a trade, either barter or for cash on either of these. I expect to be going to VCF England or whatever its called. I am in the UK, in the Low Weald of Kent to be more specific. Roger Holmes From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon May 17 11:55:00 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:55:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM System 360 Model 91 operator console from 1969 In-Reply-To: <000901caf1ce$c24e2a60$46ea7f20$@house@computer.org> References: <000901caf1ce$c24e2a60$46ea7f20$@house@computer.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 May 2010, dh wrote: > Sorry I forgot . here is a picture. > > http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/36091CART.JPG Holy crap, that is a lot of lights. I think that may be more lights than on all the machines I have put together... Does it display every register in the machine? How big is the cable that carries all those signals??? Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 17 11:56:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 09:56:19 -0700 Subject: Mac Classic problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF112C3.17113.26CF5D@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2010 at 11:02, Mark Tapley wrote: > 2) If (sigh. When) I have to pull those things off, I will need a > hot-air soldering station, correct? My thought is, cut up an aluminum > can to make an air dam isolating the cap. from the rest of the board, > then blast it with hot air until it flies off or vaporizes. Is that > close to right? If they're leaking, no question--you WILL need to replace them. Replacement of simple 2-terminal SMT devices can usually be performed with a fine-tip conventional soldering iron. You might also want to investigate Chip-Quick low-temperature fusible alloy if you're nervous about damaging the board. Replacements should be no farther away than your DigiKey or Mouser catalog. There are lots of videos on SMT rework on YouTube that explain the process much better than I could in words. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 17 12:04:33 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:04:33 -0400 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Al writes: > I've always wanted to give Burt Rutan a run at a Space Shuttle > replacement. I bet he'd do something really nice. > His White Knight/Spaceship One combo seems pretty innovative. But, > that's not intended to be a Shuttle replacement. I actually hope he doesn't do "a Space Shuttle replacement". The Space Shuttle is a classic example of scope creep. It had to do everything. In the end it did do most all of everything, and it did it each of them pretty well, but it was much more complicated than needed for any one task, and schedules and budgets were blown out of the water. But excepting schedules and budgets... it did surprisingly well. What Burt Rutan could do, is a family of replacements, each of which does one of the shuttle's tasks well. Some stages/assemblies/technologies would probably end up being shared and that's great. Tim. From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 17 12:28:19 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 10:28:19 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" atMay15, 10 01:00:36 am <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> Message-ID: From: RodSmallwood Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 11:14 PM > From: Rich Alderson > Sent: 16 May 2010 18:53 >> TNMoC is indeed full of old systems, wonderfully so. After the DEC >> Legacy event in Windermere last month, Ian King and I traveled down to >> London, then went up to BP on the Monday. (Not their usual open day, >> but they took pity on us for our traveling schedule. Barney Duffy, >> volunteer extraordinaire, was our guide.) >> For a VCF event, though, isn't much of the point to show off one's own >> gems? TNMoC may have near as makes no difference to one of everything >> PC from the last 40 years, but they don't have the funds or volunteers >> to keep each and every one of them running, so for that kind of thing >> coals to Newcastle is a necessity, hmm? > Good point! That I think might have been missed. > It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation people. One of > everything but nothing flies. I just hate that. If something was built to > run and can run again with out damage it should. TNMoC are very much *not* like the preservation people, aircraft or computer or thimbles. They are, on the other hand, an entirely volunteer organization, living on contributions and grants like most museums. Real restoration of even a simple system requires monetary outlays, so limited funds have to be spent as priorities dictate, and everything can't be done all at once. And there are probably as many aircraft restorers as there are preservers. > As to volunteering, it's clear that many of us would spend as much time > traveling to BP as they would doing something useful whilst there. Not to > mention the cost. I know little old ladies living on retirement pensions who travel several hours each way to volunteer as docents or library workers at the Seattle Art Museum. Priorities. > I do have an idea. Why not farm out some of the stuff in storage to those of > us who have restored a similar item in the past for themselves? > I'm sure a small card saying 'Restored to working order by Joe Bloggs' would > but reward enough. Issues of insurance, quality control, etc. etc. etc. How do they tell the serious restorer from a well-meaning screw-up? There are good reasons, even if they seem frustating to those on the outside. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rogpugh at mac.com Mon May 17 12:56:03 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:56:03 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF18332.6040709@mac.com> On 05/17/2010 17:38, Roger Holmes wrote: > > My main classic computer is too big to take (Needs a couple of tail lift lorries and 3 months to re-assemble). > > Roger. > > I think i saw it on the telly a few months ago!! roger From rogpugh at mac.com Mon May 17 12:58:33 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:58:33 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF183C9.3040508@mac.com> On 05/17/2010 16:42, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 23:07 -0500 5/15/10, Fred wrote: >> Could somebody please give Tony a ride to it? >> >> Tony, >> GO! > > Seconded. Most useful post I've seen in weeks. Where do I send > contributions? Assuming we can make this a zero-sum game (go vs. not > go) for Tony's finances, I'd like to do that. I believe Tony is in the London area and i'm willing to provide transport. Roger From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon May 17 13:04:21 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96145.98541.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I think one of the things that got me about the Space Shuttle was the early Pentagon requirement to be able to lift satellite payloads into a polar orbit, since the military was planning on having their own military shuttle launches. Apparently that is one big thing in particular that added a lot of additional cost to the shuttle. Supposedly halfway through the design the Air Force decided they didn't need or want it after all, then NASA was stuck holding the bag on a more expensive/complicated design than would have otherwise been necessary. ________________________________ From: "Shoppa, Tim" To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Sent: Mon, May 17, 2010 12:04:33 PM Subject: Re: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps) Al writes: > I've always wanted to give Burt Rutan a run at a Space Shuttle > replacement. I bet he'd do something really nice. > His White Knight/Spaceship One combo seems pretty innovative. But, > that's not intended to be a Shuttle replacement. I actually hope he doesn't do "a Space Shuttle replacement". The Space Shuttle is a classic example of scope creep. It had to do everything. In the end it did do most all of everything, and it did it each of them pretty well, but it was much more complicated than needed for any one task, and schedules and budgets were blown out of the water. But excepting schedules and budgets... it did surprisingly well. What Burt Rutan could do, is a family of replacements, each of which does one of the shuttle's tasks well. Some stages/assemblies/technologies would probably end up being shared and that's great. Tim. From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon May 17 13:58:34 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 14:58:34 -0400 Subject: radio shack 28-249 manual In-Reply-To: <743675.61079.qm@web81507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <743675.61079.qm@web81507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Bruce Holland wrote: > Hi, > Sorry about my first email. It was late and my back was killing me. I would > appreciate very > much if I could some how get a copy of the manual for my 200 in one project > kit. I am > 60 yrs of age and disabled and have time on my hands. I graduated in > electronics, > head of the class, but I still like basic things... like this kit. > > Sincerely, > Bruce Holland > A company called Elenco still produces these. If it's the same as the radio shack version (I have the radio shack and it's very similar) then the manual is here: http://manuals.elenco.com/manuals/mx907.pdf Here's the homepage for the company: http://www.elenco.com/ And here's the site listing their electronics kits: http://www.sciencekits.com/electron.html Here's the product page for the 200-in-1 kit: http://www.elenco.com/MX-907.htm I loved those kits - I had four of them. My favorite was the microcomputer training one - where you keyed in assembly language programs via a spring-action hex keypad. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon May 17 14:13:03 2010 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:13:03 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" atMay15, 10 01:00:36 am <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <1274123583.3120.21.camel@entasis> I'll be at VCF-UK, certainly Saturday and probably Sunday also, depending on how much of the rest of BP I get to see. I also managed to get a ticket for the OMD gig :-) We should organise a ClassicCmp get-together at some point - maybe Jules or someone can suggest a local pub (though I am tempted to suggest the Enigma for obvious reasons). I'll comment on Rod's idea to "farm out some of the stuff". I think most museums are reluctant to see things leave the site. I am not wishing to cast aspersions on anyone here, but it's quite possible for an item to be forgotten about, left dismantled, parts lost; people's interests change, they may even die, and sometimes after they've had it for a few years they may even think that they own it, or at least have some moral right to dictate what happens to it. Museums have enough trouble keeping track of things on-site or in off-site storage without having this additional complication. LJW On Mon, 2010-05-17 at 07:14 +0100, RodSmallwood wrote: > Good point! > > It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation people. One of > everything but nothing flies. I just hate that. If something was built to > run and can run again with out damage it should. > > As to volunteering, it's clear that many of us would spend as much time > traveling to BP as they would doing something useful whilst there. Not to > mention the cost. > > I do have an idea. Why not farm out some of the stuff in storage to those of > us who have restored a similar item in the past for themselves? > I'm sure a small card saying 'Restored to working order by Joe Bloggs' would > but reward enough. > > Rod -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 17 14:24:08 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 15:24:08 -0400 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 In-Reply-To: <201005152329.11245.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4BEF4A84.2040206@neurotica.com> <201005152329.11245.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 11:29 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> ? ?Were there any other MicroChannel systems out there aside from IBM >> and Tandy? ?I seem to recall there was at least one other. > > NCR. ?Big SMP machines, and some desktops, with 486 through at least > PPro processors running NCR's UNIX. I played with a couple of those at Lucent, c. 1997. ISTR something like P90 processors (4?), many MCA buses, each with many SCSI cards and *lots* of SCSI cables going over to a JBOD cabinet. The fun part was that as massive as they were (physically larger than a VAX 11/750), they'd still boot DOS, still had a VGA interface, and still could run Doom! -ethan From pinball at telus.net Mon May 17 11:02:39 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 09:02:39 -0700 Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: References: <4BF05C2B.2000200@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BF1689F.8040405@telus.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 16 May 2010, John Robertson wrote: > >> Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> There are many outfits offering repair kits for PCB edge connectors, >>> but all of them are $2-300. That's complete overkill for the one or >>> two repairs per year I might need to perform. >>> >>> If I purchase a "frame" of dry-adhesive backed traces from Circuit >>> Medic, what are the chances of using a temperature-controlled bench >>> iron to bond them? Anyone have experience with this? I can see >>> making the $40 investment if it has even a chance of working. >>> > > >> Here is an outfit that sells rework kits for PCBs - and a link to the >> page of Circuit Frames: >> >> http://www.engineeringlab.com/circuitframes.html >> >> These look very promissing, I have a rework kit from PACE dated in >> the 1980s that I am still working through, but this site is great - I >> will be ordering some of their frames for my shop and would sell a >> few pads if asked nicely... > > Thanks! Those appear to be the same frames that Circuit Medic offers, > but with better picutures, more complete description and 1/2 the price > :-). > > I need to find out from them if a temperature-controlled iron can > rationally substitute for the $70 bonding iron and $40 tip (ouch). > > Steve > > Hi Steve, You know - you might be able to get away with using very thin copper sheet stock that you cut to size, solder then use a drop of cyanoacrylate/cyanoacrylic (Krazy) glue to hold it down. I've done this with edge card repairs successfully, using the old PACE tinned copper PCB repair strips, don't see why you can't do the same with copper shim stock, tinning, then cutting, soldering and gluing yourself. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 17 06:34:35 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 07:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: <4BF0336B.8790.240084B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100516173205.P16989@shell.lmi.net> <4BF0336B.8790.240084B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're just concerned about the plating, there's a solution: > > http://www.circuitmedic.com/products/201-6100.shtml > http://www.engineeringlab.com/contactrepair.html Not just plating, unfortunately. The entire finger is gone. > Pace has a ThermoBond CirKit to replace missing conductors: > > http://www.paceworldwide.com/product/view/id/477.html Sure, for $375... In their dreams. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 17 06:38:17 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 07:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: <4BF05C2B.2000200@telus.net> References: <4BF05C2B.2000200@telus.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 May 2010, John Robertson wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> There are many outfits offering repair kits for PCB edge connectors, but >> all of them are $2-300. That's complete overkill for the one or two >> repairs per year I might need to perform. >> >> If I purchase a "frame" of dry-adhesive backed traces from Circuit Medic, >> what are the chances of using a temperature-controlled bench iron to bond >> them? Anyone have experience with this? I can see making the $40 >> investment if it has even a chance of working. >> > Here is an outfit that sells rework kits for PCBs - and a link to the page of > Circuit Frames: > > http://www.engineeringlab.com/circuitframes.html > > These look very promissing, I have a rework kit from PACE dated in the 1980s > that I am still working through, but this site is great - I will be ordering > some of their frames for my shop and would sell a few pads if asked nicely... Thanks! Those appear to be the same frames that Circuit Medic offers, but with better picutures, more complete description and 1/2 the price :-). I need to find out from them if a temperature-controlled iron can rationally substitute for the $70 bonding iron and $40 tip (ouch). Steve -- From djg at pdp8online.com Mon May 17 07:11:15 2010 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 08:11:15 -0400 Subject: Alignment Diskettes Message-ID: <201005171211.o4HCBFO20965@mail.pdp8online.com> >Anyone have any pointers to places selling them, also may be looking for >3.5" alignment diskettes. > Try asking this person. I got 8" and 5.25" from him. Looks like he's only listing 8" right now but check with him. The 5.25" he wasn't listing but dug some up when I asked about them. http://shop.ebay.com/calcor4/m.html?_trkparms=65%253A15%257C66%253A2%257C39%253A1&_ipg=&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14.l1581&_pgn=1 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 13:23:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:23:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: <4BF04351.8090700@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 16, 10 03:11:13 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/16/10 2:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I experienced the reverse situation. Somebody said to me 'do you want an > > IBM compatible ethernet interface'. I was expecting an ISA card. What I > > actually fot was a boc of electronics with Tag and Bus connectors on the > > back to connect to an IBM 270 channel. Oh, and an AUI connector :-) I mesant 'IBM 370 channel', of course > > Wow...I'll take that! =) That was my thought. It was made by Storagetek, and is relatively simple inside. One large PCB, I seem to remember one ASIC but everything else identifiable. I don't have much use for it (I don't have anything that can control a channel, the only other IBM channel compatible device I own is a DX11), but it is still an interesting item in the collection. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:17:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:17:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <013101caf53e$d2444f30$76cced90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 16, 10 10:29:05 pm Message-ID: > > Yes "blipping" the coil with a 9V battery moves the heads. When the drive > was powered on I also measured the voltage by attaching a probe to each end > of the coil cable, in that case I measured about 1.3V only. So I am guessing > the coil is OK. Next step is to swap the boards back again. And then fix the real fault :-) More seriously, it sounds like the positioner coil is not being driven hard enoguh to move the heads -- and if the coil was open-circuit I would ecpect the servo sysem to try to drive it very hard to attempt to get some movement. Normally there are various conditions which have to be satified (motor up to speed, no write current unless write gate is asserted, only one head selected, etc) before the heads will move. It's entirely possible the problem is in one of those areas. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:21:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:21:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100516151957.O16989@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 16, 10 03:22:43 pm Message-ID: > > > > I didnt know about it till this thread started, I would like to go but > > Yes, it seems to have been very badly advertised. The fist I heard about > > it was a comment in passing in Computer Resurection. > > Evan mentioned it about 4 months ago. I seem to remember that was more of a comment in passing, rather than a 'call for machines'. I was talking to Philip (Belben) about this, and he made the very reasonable comment (IMHO) that Bletchely Park was not an ideal place for this. One thing that is _not_ in short supply among classic computer enthusiasts are classic computers. What is needed for a VCF event (in his, and my, opinion) is a hall with adequate mains power. Then the enthusiasts can bring their machines and demonstrate them. > But there was little discussion ("Did Sellam approve the trademark use?", > etc.), and I had forgotten about it, as well. Not that I would have gone, > . . . I haven't even been able to go to the most recent ones in > California, due to inadequately defenestrated college administrators. Had it been somewhere I could have got to, and got a machine to, I would have dragged _something_ along. I am not sure what, but I have various interesting toys here. And of course I would have taken it apart.... As it is, I will restrict myself to giving an off-topic talk at the HPCC mini-conference... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:26:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:26:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <4BF07063.4000007@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 16, 10 11:23:31 pm Message-ID: > I've got one on my right arm from leaning over the hot end of a hot-air > soldering station while it was 'live'. The display read "COOLING: 40 C, > but it turns out that was the setpoint, not the current temperature. Hot > air burns HURT LIKE HELL. Didn't look like much at the time, but 9 > months down the line I still have the scars. I am going to have to get a hot-air soldering station. Problem i, the good ones are too expensive, and the cheap ones are not good (and don't have adequate spares backup). Oh well, one day... > I've also done "picking up the soldering iron from the wrong end", and I had some idiot trip over the mains lead of my soldering iron (cheap, mains-powered iron) at school. Pulled the iron back through my hand so I was gripping it by the metal element shaft. Ouch! > I've had one or two mains plugs with duff screw inserts -- the entire > back of one of the plugs shattered when I tried to unplug it, allowing I have found that MK brand (and Duraplug for rubber plugs) don't have this problem. And those are all I use now. > the palm of my hand to form a very nice low-resistance path over the > phase and neutral lines. Bzzzzzkt! One of the many things neither a > 13-amp plug fuse or an RCD (RCCB) circuit breaker will protect you from. Yes, but a live-neutral connection through the fingers of one hand is unlikely to kill you, thankfully. I once (accidentally) started reassembling a device without unplugging it from the mains. When picking up the rear panel, my fingers touched the back of the mains fuseholder which was live. Fortunately the panel was soildly earhted, so as in your case the current only passed through that hand. Ouch, but I am here to tell you about it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:31:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:31:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: <20100516173205.P16989@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 16, 10 05:38:16 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 16 May 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > Alternately, what other approaches have folks used? > > The TRS80 sometimes had edge connector issues (corrosion, etc.) The normal cure for that (which I never had to do) was to solder a header plug onto the edge of the PCB and to replace the cables with ones with suitable header sockets. > For a while, there was a company making gold-plate MALE edge connector IDC > connectors (34 and 40 pin); with a few inch long "edge connector My Philips P8450 has PCB-backplane connectors which are a bit like 2-part edge connectors. The chassis mounted part is similar to an edge connector, but with a wider-than-normal slot (it looks like it's for a thick PCB. The PCB mouted part is a plastic strip with contacts on each side (like a thinner version of the active bit of a microribbon connector). IIRC the I/O connectors on the PCBs are the same design and I used normal edge connectors to connect to them, so possibly the backplane connectors aren't much different to normal edge connectors. I have never seen these connectors used elsewhere, no idea where you'd find them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:35:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:35:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Alignment Diskettes In-Reply-To: <073801caf56a$b5259cc0$170e00bd@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at May 16, 10 11:43:04 pm Message-ID: > I still have many 720k drives around, some HP gear uses them :) FWIW, I've had no problems aligning the Sony 3.5" drives used in older HP stuff with a normal alignment disk. I really must work out what the alignment tool really was. It's like a screwdriuver with a pinion and spigot at the business end. The spigot locates in a hole in the drive chassis, the pinion meshes with teeth on the stepper motor flange and it makes moveing the motor a lot easier. I need to work out the number of teeth and the pitch, and I'll have a go at milling one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:37:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:37:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Alignment Diskettes In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 16, 10 09:09:32 pm Message-ID: > > > > Hi > > I'm relatively sure the track alignment is the same > > as the 1.44. You should be able to use a 1.44M alignment > > disk. I;'ve never heard of there being different _analogue_ alginment disks (Catseye disks) for 720K and 1.44M 3.5" drives. Certainly the one Ibought is good for both, > > You won't be able to do a write/read test but you can use > > a 720K disk for that. I wouldn't want to write to any part of an alignment disk. Just in case the positioner decides to fail and I end up overwriting the catseye pattern. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:39:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:39:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Alignment Diskettes In-Reply-To: <4BF071BA.6465.3336D41@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 16, 10 10:29:14 pm Message-ID: > > On 16 May 2010 at 21:09, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I'm relatively sure the track alignment is the same > > as the 1.44. You should be able to use a 1.44M alignment > > disk. > > I think it depends on the disk, Dwight. A 720K drive may not have > enough read-channel "headroom" to handle a disk made for 1.44MB > drives. Do you have any evidence that such an alignment disk exists? I would be suprised. Why make it? The '720K; one is good for both 720K and 1.44M drives, so why make one that _only_ works in the latter type? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:41:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:41:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF0D5AA.3090004@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at May 17, 10 01:35:38 am Message-ID: > > How much would the minimum cost to attend be? If you have a Paypal > > account, some of the rest of us could make small contributions towards > > getting you there. > > I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly would contribute to such > a purpose. I am curious as to why? What benieft would there be to the rest of the classic computer community if I visited such an event. Now, if I could take along at least one of my machines, a toolkit, etc, then perhaps at least one other person mightbe interestrd in seeing me take it apart, but that's not going to happen. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:48:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:48:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> from "RodSmallwood" at May 17, 10 07:14:23 am Message-ID: > > Good point! > > It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation people. One of > everything but nothing flies. I just hate that. If something was built to > run and can run again with out damage it should. So do I. It's also worth think about what the 'damage' could be (in the case of a classic computer, an aircraft is rather different :-)). Ok, some irreplacable chip fails. But that will not damage the appearance of the machine, so even after that you still have an artefact to put in a glass case. And the chips will fail with time whether you use them or not (they will fial sooner if you use them, most likely, but even if they are not powered upo their life ie by no means infinite!). You might as well run the machine while you can... I have a book on antique clock repairing that basically says the worst thing you can do with a (common-ish) antique clock is give it to a museum. It will never be run again, it probably won't go on show (most museums have many more artefacts than they have space to display) and so on. I feel the same way about classic computers. I'd rather they were in the hands of enthusiasts who can run them > As to volunteering, it's clear that many of us would spend as much time > traveling to BP as they would doing something useful whilst there. Not to > mention the cost. I volunteered at BP for a time some years ago. I gave up when I realised that seveal of their policies were not conducive to getting machines working _or_ keeping them in the original state. I found it more rewarding to work on my own stuff... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 14:57:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:57:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Mac Classic problems In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at May 17, 10 11:02:56 am Message-ID: > > All, > Got a Mac Classic, swapped non-functional hard drive, > installed RAM, nearly got it working for my 10-year-old. But.... > > First pass, no sound out. Not speaker, not headphone > connector. Wait, if you hold your ear right up against it, you hear a > *little* bit. Hm. > > Second pass, a week or so later, won't boot. Hmm. > > Opened it back up, looked over everything ... what's this? > There's some stuff on the digital board. Wonder what could leave an > oily stain, and how it got there in the first place without leaving > tracks on the inside of the case, the CRT, the disk drives, etc. > etc.? Well, won't hurt to clean it off, I thought ... then the penny > dropped and I realized that there were *three* little islands of > gunge, and they were centered on the three groups of what look like > my favorite nemesis .... capacitors! What a suprise... > > > > Many q-tips and much isopropanol later, it boots, but it's > still quiet - too quiet - and I have a bad feeling about how long > it'll keep running before I have to clean it again. There's a bit of > corrosion on one lead of the sound chip, but I can still hear a very > very faint edition of the sound it's supposed to make. > > The Classic has a surface-mount digital board. The components > I suspect are metal can devices, lots of them with the same marking > (which I neglected to write down) and one different. Each has a tiny > flat plastic-looking isolator or something between it and the logic > board. The 'gunge' is probably the electrolye from an aluminium electrolytic capacitor. Needless to say the capacitor doesn't work well without it, and it's entirely possible that the lack of sound is due to a defective cpaaicotr in the signal path. > > 1) Is there a preferred solvent I can squirt under those things and > the sound chip that'll pick up capacitor gunge (or whatever it is) > better than Isopropanol? Is the old standby dihydrogen monoxide a > good bet? (I have plenty of that.) > > 2) If (sigh. When) I have to pull those things off, I will need a > hot-air soldering station, correct? My thought is, cut up an aluminum > can to make an air dam isolating the cap. from the rest of the board, > then blast it with hot air until it flies off or vaporizes. Is that > close to right? I would want to remove all the suspect capacitors, clean the PCB, and fit noew ones. You do not need a hot-air soldering station. They only have 2 leads. If you remove as much of the solder as you can with desolder braid, and then heat one lead at a time you will find you can pop them off the PCB. To fit new ones, posiitoned them (and make sure they are the right way round) and then solder them with a fine-tipped soldering iron and thin solder. It's not particularlly difficult. > > 3) How do I get replacements, and how do I slap those back down on > the board? Is the code on the top all I need to order more? That depends on what the markings are :-) You need to know the capacitance (in microfarads), the working voltage (you can use one that sensibly higher than the existing one -- if the existing one is 16V, then you could fit a 25V one with no problems) and the physiucal size (so it will fit the pads on the PCB). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 17 15:42:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:42:15 -0700 Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: References: , <4BF0336B.8790.240084B@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BF147B7.24794.F5A58F@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2010 at 7:34, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Sure, for $375... In their dreams. Okay, how about masking and painting the missing contact with some silver- or copper-conductive PCB repair paint, then electroplating a few mils of copper onto that? Finish with a gold flash and it should work like the original. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 17 15:45:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 13:45:49 -0700 Subject: Alignment Diskettes In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at May 16, 10 09:09:32 pm, Message-ID: <4BF1488D.5733.F8EA98@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2010 at 20:37, Tony Duell wrote: > I;'ve never heard of there being different _analogue_ alginment disks > (Catseye disks) for 720K and 1.44M 3.5" drives. Certainly the one > Ibought is good for both, No, but Accurite sells both analog(ue) and digital alignment disks. There are some 1.44MB drives of recent manufacture that *cannot* read or write 720K (2D) media (there's no sensor or density select pin). Another case of the plague called "cost reduction". But the upshot may be that a *modern* digital alignment diskette is recorded at the 500 KHz data rate. This admittedly is speculation, but should also be taken as a warning- -and something to ask the vendor of said diskette before purchase. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 17 12:24:41 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 18:24:41 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <01ac01caf602$7b30be80$a0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Didn't know about it?! It has been mentioned here before a few months back, but it was probably part of a thread where the topic drifted. I was considering going, but I am too busy with other things right now. I would certainly go next year when I have less things on my 'to do' list. Does TNMOC or VCF-UK have a website where we can see a list of fixtures (for those that are going/planning to go) or photo's from the event (for those of us that can't make it)? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Caroline" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 10:16 PM Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? I didnt know about it till this thread started, I would like to go but I too will have to think about it closer to the weekend as Im out of work at the moment. Dave Caroline On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 1:00 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage Computer > Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th of June at > Bletchley Park? > > I'm toying with the idea of booking some time off work and going down on the > train for either the Saturday or the Sunday; I'd rather like to see the > talks by Sophie Wilson and Tony Sale, although it'd be nice to meet up with > a few of the UK-based classiccmp'ers as well. The mailing list is fine, but > it'd be nice to put names to faces :) > > I also figure the "VCF Flea Market" might be a good way to get my sticky > paws on some 8-inch floppy drives, discs and possibly an MFM hard drive and > controller pair or two. I still don't have a working 8in drive to test the > DiscFerret with... > > Speaking of which, I could be persuaded to bring the current "circuit test" > prototype down with me, though booking a table will probably be a real pig > at this late stage, and I'm willing to wager it's probably going to be too > expensive for my budget anyway (I'm saving my last ?150 to get a run of > prototype PCBs made!)... > > Cheers, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 17 16:01:04 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:01:04 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BF0D5AA.3090004@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at May 17, 10 01:35:38 am Message-ID: <016701caf604$118f5a70$34ae0f50$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> If we knew roughly where you live someone on this list might live close enough to give you a lift. You never know, you might just like looking at other people's stuff :-) Or you might be able to offer other people some useful advice even if you did not have your tools with you. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 17 May 2010 20:42 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > > > How much would the minimum cost to attend be? If you have a Paypal > > > account, some of the rest of us could make small contributions > towards > > > getting you there. > > > > I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly would contribute to > such > > a purpose. > > I am curious as to why? What benieft would there be to the rest of the > classic computer community if I visited such an event. Now, if I could > take along at least one of my machines, a toolkit, etc, then perhaps at > least one other person mightbe interestrd in seeing me take it apart, > but > that's not going to happen. > > -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 17 16:13:26 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:13:26 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <013101caf53e$d2444f30$76cced90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 16, 10 10:29:05 pm Message-ID: <016801caf605$ce9cc390$6bd64ab0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 17 May 2010 20:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD53 Restoration > > > > > Yes "blipping" the coil with a 9V battery moves the heads. When the > drive > > was powered on I also measured the voltage by attaching a probe to > each end > > of the coil cable, in that case I measured about 1.3V only. So I am > guessing > > the coil is OK. Next step is to swap the boards back again. > > And then fix the real fault :-) Indeed, if only I knew what it was! > > More seriously, it sounds like the positioner coil is not being driven > hard enoguh to move the heads Well that is what I was thinking, but if the replacement boards I used were known to work then I would have hoped for better results. I suppose they may have been damaged during removal or when I fitted them to my unit. -- and if the coil was open-circuit I > would > ecpect the servo sysem to try to drive it very hard to attempt to get > some movement. Normally there are various conditions which have to be > satified (motor up to speed, no write current unless write gate is > asserted, only one head selected, etc) before the heads will move. It's > entirely possible the problem is in one of those areas. The problem for me is how to diagnose this. I am pretty sure the motor is up to speed. However one thing that does seem slightly odd is that it starts to spin the disk down quite soon after power up. Previously with the old boards, when it worked, it would move the heads quite some time after power up, I am pretty sure this is long after the new boards give up and start spinning down again. Is it possible that the fact that for a time the heads were stuck, because of the sticky goo problem RD53s suffer from, could have caused a follow-on problem? > > -tony From trag at io.com Mon May 17 16:42:02 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:42:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Mac Classic problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7aca44844399032cf570b04058962904.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 11:02:56 -0500 > From: Mark Tapley > First pass, no sound out. Not speaker, not headphone > connector. Wait, if you hold your ear right up against it, you hear a > *little* bit. Hm. This is a (uhm) classic symptom of leaking caps on the Classic, and Classic II, and SE/30, and IIci, etc. We regularly discuss this issue (these days we usually just reference old threads) over on 68kmla.net. A search on "tantalum" is probably best, as the typical replacements we use are tantalums of the proper size and values. > gunge, and they were centered on the three groups of what look like > my favorite nemesis .... capacitors! > > > > Many q-tips and much isopropanol later, it boots, but it's > still quiet - too quiet - and I have a bad feeling about how long > it'll keep running before I have to clean it again. There's a bit of > corrosion on one lead of the sound chip, but I can still hear a very > very faint edition of the sound it's supposed to make. > > 2) If (sigh. When) I have to pull those things off, I will need a > hot-air soldering station, correct? My thought is, cut up an aluminum > can to make an air dam isolating the cap. from the rest of the board, > then blast it with hot air until it flies off or vaporizes. Is that > close to right? Use two pencils simultaneously. Radio Shack sells a 15 watt grounded pencil with a fine tip for less than $10. If you use two pencils you're much less likely to lift a pad by prying on a cap while heating one side, and after the other side has already cooled. If you were to use hot air, I find that modeling clay works conveniently and well to protect other components on the board. The simple procedure is: 1) Remove the old caps and remove the solder on the pads. 2) Clean the board thoroughly. 3) Replace the capacitors. To replace the caps, tin one pad. Place the cap carefully and hold it down with something like a small flat screwdriver. Heat the tinned pad until the caps sinks down to the pad. Remove the heat. Wait a few moments. Remove the pressing tool. Now solder the other pad/terminal. > 3) How do I get replacements, and how do I slap those back down on > the board? Is the code on the top all I need to order more? See, having me in your Spacecraft Design class all those years ago is coming in useful after all. Count the caps and the markings, and email me. I've got the replacements. Jeff Walther From arcarlini at iee.org Mon May 17 17:23:34 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 23:23:34 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <3FAA50F0FB8242EEB17BD575D22DED87@ANTONIOPC> RodSmallwood [rodsmallwood at btconnect.com] wrote: > It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation > people. One of everything but nothing flies. I just hate > that. If something was built to run and can run again with > out damage it should. It would be sad to blow up something valuable like a PDP-1. It would be much sadder to lose the last Lancaster bomber during a test flight, especially as someone would have to be in it at the time (to say nothing about where it might end up a few seconds later); so I'm tempted to cut the aircraft restorers quite a lot more slack here :-) Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 17 18:28:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100517162138.D56810@shell.lmi.net> > >Could somebody please give Tony a ride to it? > >Tony, > >GO! On Mon, 17 May 2010, Mark Tapley wrote: > Seconded. Most useful post I've seen in weeks. Where do I send > contributions? Assuming we can make this a zero-sum game (go vs. not > go) for Tony's finances, I'd like to do that. Tony, If you don't want to go for reasons other than financial, go ahead and say so. We will respect your right to have a life. But, if the reasons ARE financial, many of us would see your attendance and participation as being a very good thing for classic comuters. If you give us an estimate of what it would cost, and a Paypal account name, maybe nobody will give big money, but LOTS of us would be glad to chip in a few shekels. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ken at seefried.com Mon May 17 18:45:58 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:45:58 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF1D536.6060308@seefried.com> On 5/17/2010 12:49 PM, "RodSmallwood" wrote: > > It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation people. One of > everything but nothing flies. I just hate that. If something was built to > run and can run again with out damage it should. > To be fair, when a classic computer fails in use, it's pretty uncommon for anyone to die, and somewhat less uncommon for the entire device to be destroyed in the process. Exactly the opposite is true in the case of an aircraft. I can assure you that flyers want to fly, especially something interesting and/or unique, but sometimes the risk assessment doesn't make that smart. KJ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 17 18:53:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Send Tony off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100517163521.L56810@shell.lmi.net> > > > How much would the minimum cost to attend be? If you have a Paypal > > > account, some of the rest of us could make small contributions towards > > > getting you there. > > I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly would contribute to such > > a purpose. On Mon, 17 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I am curious as to why? What benieft would there be to the rest of the > classic computer community if I visited such an event. For similar reasons to why good universities contribute to the cost of their professors attending conferences. If each of were to contribute one Elbonian leck for each post that you have made that has been useful to us, then you would be able to go in style, with luxury hotel, extravagant meals, hookers, champagne, limousine, parties, AND be able to afford to buy a lot of computer goodies. Since we are way too stingy for that, we should target transportation, a crappy hotel room (if necessary), some fish and chips, a pint or two, and some very minimal spending money for the vendors' room at VCF. In return, we would get your educational enrichment (some of us do see the value in lifelong learning), maybe some fascinating ACCURATE descriptions of what you see there, and you would be familiar with the event enough to put together an exhibit for VCF-UK 2.0. . . . and you are our friend. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 17 18:56:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:56:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100517162138.D56810@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100517162138.D56810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BF1D7B6.1070007@neurotica.com> On 5/17/10 7:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you don't want to go for reasons other than financial, go ahead and say > so. We will respect your right to have a life. ...or NOT have one. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 17 19:02:44 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 01:02:44 +0100 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 In-Reply-To: <4BF0D63B.7030804@gmail.com> References: <4BF0D63B.7030804@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 6:38 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: >> >> It's fun to read this stuff. ?I didn't realize microchannel was >> available from anyone but IBM. ?And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. ?:-) >> >> http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ > > Tandy wasn't the only other company making MCA machines. ?NCR made quite a > few different models. ?I believe Siemens made one or two as well. And Apricot, who made the only non-IBM MCA boxes I personally ever worked on. If there are any MCA collectors out there, I still have a whole pile of cards I'm trying to give away... Free for the postage. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ken at seefried.com Mon May 17 19:10:18 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:10:18 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 81, Issue 43 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF1DAEA.3070207@seefried.com> On 5/17/2010 12:49 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Tandy wasn't the only other company making MCA machines. NCR made quite > a few different models. I believe Siemens made one or two as well. > The NCR Microchannel machines were quite well done. They spanned i486 and Pentium 1 desktop machines (the 3000 series?) through the WorldMark series with up 16 (or was it 32?) PPros running SVR4 to the Terradata-based boxes like the 3600 & 3700. I did some pretty interesting stuff on the later two at a large airline a long time ago. There was some definite teething pains with the SMP implimentation, but those were impressive boxes when things went well. Olivetti made some interesting Microchannel machines as well. KJ From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 17 19:10:53 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 01:10:53 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100517162138.D56810@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100517162138.D56810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Tony, > If you don't want to go for reasons other than financial, go ahead and say > so. ?We will respect your right to have a life. > > But, if the reasons ARE financial, many of us would see your attendance > and participation as being a very good thing for classic comuters. > > If you give us an estimate of what it would cost, and a Paypal account > name, maybe nobody will give big money, but LOTS of us would be glad to > chip in a few shekels. Strongly concur. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 17 19:18:40 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 01:18:40 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> On 15/05/10 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: > Had I heard about it early enough (why wasn't it seriously discused here) > I would have tired to get along and bring one of my interesting toys. But > as it is, I didn't have time to prepare anything. It would cost > significant money for me to get from here to Bletchley Park, and then > there's the entrance fee. I don't think it's worth it. I just priced it up... ?76.70 for an off-peak day return from Leeds to Bletchley. Google Maps reckons Bletchley Park is within spitting distance of the train station (0.1 miles or "about 2 minutes walk"... yeah, that's doable) which is nice... Figure I'll probably be trekking down for the Saturday, but I want to know what the VCF-GB opening hours are before I go booking train tickets... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 17 19:50:54 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 17:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF1D7B6.1070007@neurotica.com> References: <20100517162138.D56810@shell.lmi.net> <4BF1D7B6.1070007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100517175007.X56810@shell.lmi.net> > > If you don't want to go for reasons other than financial, go ahead and say > > so. We will respect your right to have a life. On Mon, 17 May 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ...or NOT have one. ;) Absolutely. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon May 17 20:24:41 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 02:24:41 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BF1EC59.10409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 18/05/2010 01:18, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I just priced it up... ?76.70 for an off-peak day return from Leeds to > Bletchley. Oddly whem my father in law came down recently from Newcastle to Coventry (well Leamington station), it was cheaper by almost half to buy two single tickets than one return which is prtty crazy if you ask me, but possibly worth checking out. > Google Maps reckons Bletchley Park is within spitting > distance of the train station (0.1 miles or "about 2 minutes walk"... > yeah, that's doable) which is nice... Yep deffo close enough to walk. Cheers Phill. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 17 21:50:59 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals Message-ID: <770713.96275.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have the need to optically isolate a composite video signal to compensate for the different ground reference between the devices. Digging through my stash of parts, I have some optos, but the ones I have are more suited to digital applications. Having not tried to pass an analog signal through one before, I'm not quite sure what sort of part I'm looking for... Anyone have any suggestions? -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 17 22:13:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 20:13:04 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals In-Reply-To: <770713.96275.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <770713.96275.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BF1A350.32199.25B748E@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2010 at 19:50, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I have the need to optically isolate a composite video signal to > compensate for the different ground reference between the devices. > Digging through my stash of parts, I have some optos, but the ones I > have are more suited to digital applications. Having not tried to pass > an analog signal through one before, I'm not quite sure what sort of > part I'm looking for... Most garden-variety optos are hideously non-linear. You can use a matched pair and use one to provide feedback to compensate for the nonlinearity of the other, but you may not end up with enough bandwidth. I'm assuming that ADC->opto->DAC is out of the question. Why not use a made-for-purpose part such as the HP/Agilent HCPL4562? --Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon May 17 22:29:47 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 23:29:47 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals In-Reply-To: <4BF1A350.32199.25B748E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <770713.96275.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4BF1A350.32199.25B748E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 23:13, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 May 2010 at 19:50, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> I have the need to optically isolate a composite video signal to >> compensate for the different ground reference between the devices. > > Most garden-variety optos are hideously non-linear. But given the nonlinearity would only affect the luminance component, it might not be very noticeable. I would just try it. :-) > I'm assuming that ADC->opto->DAC is out of the question. Regular optoisolators would probably not be fast enough, but a simple one-bit sigma-delta A/D-D/A chain is not too hard to do...(at least in theory) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon May 17 22:31:01 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:31:01 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals In-Reply-To: <770713.96275.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <770713.96275.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 19:50:59 -0700 > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com > Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > I have the need to optically isolate a composite video signal to compensate for the different ground reference between the devices. Digging through my stash of parts, I have some optos, but the ones I have are more suited to digital applications. Having not tried to pass an analog signal through one before, I'm not quite sure what sort of part I'm looking for... > > Anyone have any suggestions? > > -Ian Hi Ian, Lets get a bit deeper into your requirement: Is it really composite NTSC, picture data or a composite digital signal (computer game etc.) I ask because perhaps just isolating digital RGB from the source by opto may be the way to go, and regenerate the composite NTSC on the other side of the opto barrier with the National LM1886 / LM1889 combination. If you really have to isolate a NTSC signal, here are your options: RF Modulator, demod with some fidelity loss Broadband transformer with possibly a gain stage on the output side (think a 75 ohm 1:1 transformer) depending on how forgiving the monitor is on signal levels, and front porch back porch, sink sag during the essentially DC time of the signal. A quick test of this idea would be to wire 2 coax to 300 ohm flatlead baluns back to back (I know they are expecting RF, not DC-4.5MHz but a cheap and quick experiment just the same) And, finally, as you suggested, a linear optocoupler. They are inherently non-linear, but avoid all the DC problems at the sync pulses. If you go this route, the topology will use 2 optocouplers, one one carying the signal, and one in a feedback path to linearize it. This was a popular circuit, and I bet we can find it in a single IC package by now... Let me know some more specifics of your two devices you are mating, and we can come up with something. It may be just simpler to add an isolation transformer to the monitor, or if its a 'hot' chasis just be sure the supplies of both systems have no difference in hot and neutral. This was the original IBM PC solution, remember the special polarized plug for the monitor, that plugged into the CPU? Cheers, Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon May 17 23:05:52 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 23:05:52 -0500 Subject: video opto isolator single chip solution Message-ID: Ian, Here you go 8 pin DIP, and app note circuit in the datasheet: http://www.avagotech.com/pages/en/optocouplers_plastic/plastic_wideband_analog_video_optocoupler/hcnw4562/ Randyc _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon May 17 23:11:10 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 00:11:10 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals In-Reply-To: References: <770713.96275.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > If you really have to isolate a NTSC signal, here are your options: Or just get an isolating video DA at a hamfest for a buck. At least on the East coast, broadcast quality video stuff is very common. -- Will From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon May 17 23:20:33 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 23:20:33 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals In-Reply-To: References: <770713.96275.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 00:11:10 -0400 > Subject: Re: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > If you really have to isolate a NTSC signal, here are your options: > > Or just get an isolating video DA at a hamfest for a buck. At least on > the East coast, broadcast quality video stuff is very common. > > -- > Will Aww heck Will. Why spend a buck when you can spend so much more, and countless hours making some obsolete technology perform? Thats the credo of classicmp. ;) Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 17 23:37:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 21:37:34 -0700 Subject: video opto isolator single chip solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF1B71E.10404.2A8CFD7@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 May 2010 at 23:05, Randy Dawson wrote: > http://www.avagotech.com/pages/en/optocouplers_plastic/plastic_wideban > d_analog_video_optocoupler/hcnw4562/ Pretty much what I suggested--same datasheet: http://pdf1.alldatasheet.net/datasheet-pdf/view/64639/HP/HCPL4562.htm The PL has a 17MHz bandwidth vs. the NW's 9MHz, but the NW has a gain of 3.0 vs. the PL's 2.0. The app note circuit's very simple--something that I look for. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue May 18 00:22:30 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 06:22:30 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> from"RodSmallwood" at May 17, 10 07:14:23 am Message-ID: Well I am interested to learn Tony's views. Obviously, not a fan of computer museums. Perhaps we should seek to make donations a two way street. The collector gets something in exchange for donated working item. Taking Tony's comments a step further it would appear that computer museums are groups of donation funded, unpaid volunteers who seek to aquire as many inanimate examples as possible. Systems are made to work only to attract visitors and hence revenue. The members of the groups would much rather the space was used to store even more non working equipment and keep it out of sight and accessible only to the select few. I agree with Tony. Systems should be put to work. It matters not if that work is running a business, controlling a process or showing how they operate to the general public. After all they where originally designed to be used and operated by just such people. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 17 May 2010 20:48 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > Good point! > > It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation people. One of > everything but nothing flies. I just hate that. If something was built to > run and can run again with out damage it should. So do I. It's also worth think about what the 'damage' could be (in the case of a classic computer, an aircraft is rather different :-)). Ok, some irreplacable chip fails. But that will not damage the appearance of the machine, so even after that you still have an artefact to put in a glass case. And the chips will fail with time whether you use them or not (they will fial sooner if you use them, most likely, but even if they are not powered upo their life ie by no means infinite!). You might as well run the machine while you can... I have a book on antique clock repairing that basically says the worst thing you can do with a (common-ish) antique clock is give it to a museum. It will never be run again, it probably won't go on show (most museums have many more artefacts than they have space to display) and so on. I feel the same way about classic computers. I'd rather they were in the hands of enthusiasts who can run them > As to volunteering, it's clear that many of us would spend as much time > traveling to BP as they would doing something useful whilst there. Not to > mention the cost. I volunteered at BP for a time some years ago. I gave up when I realised that seveal of their policies were not conducive to getting machines working _or_ keeping them in the original state. I found it more rewarding to work on my own stuff... -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 18 00:43:38 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 01:43:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF2290A.8060403@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> How much would the minimum cost to attend be? If you have a Paypal >>> account, some of the rest of us could make small contributions towards >>> getting you there. >> >> I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly would contribute to such >> a purpose. > > I am curious as to why? What benieft would there be to the rest of the > classic computer community if I visited such an event. Now, if I could > take along at least one of my machines, a toolkit, etc, then perhaps at > least one other person mightbe interestrd in seeing me take it apart, but > that's not going to happen. For two main reasons. I can see the value of your company even if you can't. Also, I am very sure you would have a good time at a gathering like VCF, and you've provided enough to me over the years on this list that I feel this kind of payback is appropriate. Peace... Sridhar From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 17 15:26:02 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: <4BF1689F.8040405@telus.net> References: <4BF05C2B.2000200@telus.net> <4BF1689F.8040405@telus.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 May 2010, John Robertson wrote: >>> These look very promissing, I have a rework kit from PACE dated in the >>> 1980s that I am still working through, but this site is great - I will be >>> ordering some of their frames for my shop and would sell a few pads if >>> asked nicely... >> >> Thanks! Those appear to be the same frames that Circuit Medic offers, but >> with better picutures, more complete description and 1/2 the price :-). >> >> I need to find out from them if a temperature-controlled iron can >> rationally substitute for the $70 bonding iron and $40 tip (ouch). They were discouraging about using a soldering iron - too hot. The bonding iron is << solder melt point and must stay in contact for about 30 seconds. > You know - you might be able to get away with using very thin copper sheet > stock that you cut to size, solder then use a drop of > cyanoacrylate/cyanoacrylic (Krazy) glue to hold it down. I've done this with > edge card repairs successfully, using the old PACE tinned copper PCB repair > strips, don't see why you can't do the same with copper shim stock, tinning, > then cutting, soldering and gluing yourself. That would do in a pinch - wouldn't be gold plated, but perhaps not a fatal issue. Where does one find shim stock that thin? Steve -- From pinball at telus.net Mon May 17 18:35:36 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 16:35:36 -0700 Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: References: <4BF05C2B.2000200@telus.net> <4BF1689F.8040405@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BF1D2C8.6070107@telus.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 17 May 2010, John Robertson wrote: > >>>> These look very promissing, I have a rework kit from PACE dated in >>>> the 1980s that I am still working through, but this site is great - >>>> I will be ordering some of their frames for my shop and would sell >>>> a few pads if asked nicely... >>> >>> Thanks! Those appear to be the same frames that Circuit Medic >>> offers, but with better picutures, more complete description and 1/2 >>> the price :-). >>> >>> I need to find out from them if a temperature-controlled iron can >>> rationally substitute for the $70 bonding iron and $40 tip (ouch). > > They were discouraging about using a soldering iron - too hot. The > bonding iron is << solder melt point and must stay in contact for > about 30 seconds. > >> You know - you might be able to get away with using very thin copper >> sheet stock that you cut to size, solder then use a drop of >> cyanoacrylate/cyanoacrylic (Krazy) glue to hold it down. I've done >> this with edge card repairs successfully, using the old PACE tinned >> copper PCB repair strips, don't see why you can't do the same with >> copper shim stock, tinning, then cutting, soldering and gluing yourself. > > That would do in a pinch - wouldn't be gold plated, but perhaps not a > fatal issue. > > Where does one find shim stock that thin? > > Steve > > A quick search turned up this 1mil copper sheet...they have many more thicknesses available. http://basiccopper.com/1milcopperfoil.html John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue May 18 01:51:56 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 23:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP8/A for sale In-Reply-To: <77d877581003191922g47eda060ma4810642f1909ff3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <864232.19307.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 3/19/10, Darrell Norquay <1metalguru at gmail.com> wrote: > I also have a PDP8/I WO25 Core Memory Module mod 30-05256-2 > made by Data-Ram > Corp.: Hi, Darrell. Have you sold the core module? --Bill From andy at flirble.org Tue May 18 02:38:39 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 08:38:39 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100518073839.GA13159@plum.flirble.org> On (01:18 18/05/10), Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 15/05/10 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: > >Had I heard about it early enough (why wasn't it seriously discused here) > >I would have tired to get along and bring one of my interesting toys. But > >as it is, I didn't have time to prepare anything. It would cost > >significant money for me to get from here to Bletchley Park, and then > >there's the entrance fee. I don't think it's worth it. > > I just priced it up... ?76.70 for an off-peak day return from Leeds to > Bletchley. Google Maps reckons Bletchley Park is within spitting > distance of the train station (0.1 miles or "about 2 minutes walk"... > yeah, that's doable) which is nice... I've been getting London <-> Leeds single tickets via the East Coast website for 10 - 15 each way if I book advance, non-flexible tickets. And I can't remember precisely how much a London to Bletchley day return is, but it's somewhere around 20, maybe less if you can advance book. Cheers Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 18 03:34:22 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:34:22 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF1EC59.10409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> <4BF1EC59.10409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4BF2510E.5010100@philpem.me.uk> On 18/05/10 02:24, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Oddly whem my father in law came down recently from Newcastle to > Coventry (well Leamington station), it was cheaper by almost half to buy > two single tickets than one return which is prtty crazy if you ask me, > but possibly worth checking out. I tried that -- ?141 for a pair of single tickets... You know something's wrong when it's cheaper to get a plane ticket from Leeds to London than to do the same trip by cattle-class train... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 18 03:40:49 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 09:40:49 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100518073839.GA13159@plum.flirble.org> References: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> <20100518073839.GA13159@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <4BF25291.7090200@philpem.me.uk> On 18/05/10 08:38, Andrew Back wrote: > I've been getting London<-> Leeds single tickets via the East Coast website > for 10 - 15 each way if I book advance, non-flexible tickets. And I can't > remember precisely how much a London to Bletchley day return is, but it's > somewhere around 20, maybe less if you can advance book. Based on what thetrainline.com and nationalrail.co.uk are spitting out, the cheapest fare available is the ?76 "advance off-peak return". Any other type of ticket just sends the price off into the stratosphere; e.g. a standard off-peak day return is ?170! Seriously, I could probably get a return plane ticket to a very nice European city for that, and still have change left over for a reasonably nice hotel room... As I said before, something's wrong when it costs more to go by train than by plane. (not that British Rail ticketing wasn't mad, but it does seem that since the privatisation it's gotten MUCH worse). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 18 04:38:02 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:38:02 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF25291.7090200@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> <20100518073839.GA13159@plum.flirble.org> <4BF25291.7090200@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: For me I shudder to think of the train price but but taking the car from Burton is 93 miles each way and with an estate car means I can bring toys back from the flea market for the cost of 5 gallons of deseasal ish. And its door to door (car park) Dave Caroline. On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 18/05/10 08:38, Andrew Back wrote: >> >> I've been getting London<-> ?Leeds single tickets via the East Coast >> website >> for 10 - 15 each way if I book advance, non-flexible tickets. And I can't >> remember precisely how much a London to Bletchley day return is, but it's >> somewhere around 20, maybe less if you can advance book. > > Based on what thetrainline.com and nationalrail.co.uk are spitting out, the > cheapest fare available is the ?76 "advance off-peak return". Any other type > of ticket just sends the price off into the stratosphere; e.g. a standard > off-peak day return is ?170! > > Seriously, I could probably get a return plane ticket to a very nice > European city for that, and still have change left over for a reasonably > nice hotel room... As I said before, something's wrong when it costs more to > go by train than by plane. (not that British Rail ticketing wasn't mad, but > it does seem that since the privatisation it's gotten MUCH worse). > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From steve at cosam.org Tue May 18 04:58:15 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 11:58:15 +0200 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Philip Pemberton wrote: > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage Computer > Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th of June at > Bletchley Park? I'm looking at taking a car over on the ferry as I need to pick up a load of (unfortunately non-computer-related) stuff in the UK some time soon anyway. If I can arrange time off, I *may* have a spare seat going, departing from Hook of Holland, The Netherlands on the 18th or 19th. I however don't know when I'd be heading back, as I have a bit of business to attend to while I'm over. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From andy at flirble.org Tue May 18 05:20:38 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 11:20:38 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF2510E.5010100@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> <4BF1EC59.10409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4BF2510E.5010100@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100518102038.GA32777@plum.flirble.org> On (09:34 18/05/10), Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 18/05/10 02:24, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > >Oddly whem my father in law came down recently from Newcastle to > >Coventry (well Leamington station), it was cheaper by almost half to buy > >two single tickets than one return which is prtty crazy if you ask me, > >but possibly worth checking out. > > I tried that -- ?141 for a pair of single tickets... Origin:Leeds, 06:34 Destination:London St Pancras, 10:32 Date:Sat 19 Jun 2010 Price: 17 Origin:London St Pancras, 19:55 Destination:Leeds, 23:04 Date:Sat 19 Jun 2010 Price: 17 Total cost: 34 Source: http://tickets.eastcoast.co.uk/ec/en/JourneyPlanning/MixingDeck > You know something's wrong when it's cheaper to get a plane ticket from > Leeds to London than to do the same trip by cattle-class train... Yes, our trains are more expensive than they should be. However, I think you might be comparing apples and oranges. How much does an open return plane ticket cost - one where you don't have to specify the departure and return date or time, and can just turn up and hop on/off? Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 18 07:21:04 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 05:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <174737.19730.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 5/17/10, Randy Dawson wrote: > > It may be just simpler to add an isolation transformer to > the monitor, or if its a 'hot' chasis just be sure the > supplies of both systems have no difference in hot and > neutral.? This is essentially the situation. I've modified a black and white television set to accept composite video. It was surprisingly simple to do, and the picture is acceptable, considering the quality of the set. I'm currently running the TV on an isolation transformer. It's a hot chassis set with a polarized cord. Even though the neutral is at the same reference as the computer input, you'd run into problems on circuits with a GFI outlet. The isolation transformer is ideal in terms of safety, but not in terms of size or cost. I'm using my bench iso for testing, but I want something I can mount inside the television, so I won't need extra equipment to use it. Arcade machine isolation transformers are too big - I'm looking for a smaller/cheaper one, since the power requirements are minimal, around 30 watts. Optically isolating the video signal is another option, eliminating the need for the isolation transformer. The advantage here is low cost and small parts. I was unaware of the single-chip video isolation solutions, hence why I asked :) -Ian From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue May 18 09:35:24 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 07:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <20100517163521.L56810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/05/video-ipad-loading-software-onto-apple-e From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 18 12:17:45 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:17:45 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> On 5/18/10 7:35 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > > > http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/05/video-ipad-loading-software-onto-apple-e > A 21st century replacement for a Walkman. Apparently they've thrown away all of their laptops, which would have made more sense to use. But, you couldn't get a story in Wired doing that, now could you? From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 18 12:22:26 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: questionably OT: AmigaOS 4 on Mac PPC Message-ID: <201005181722.o4IHMQ9t016936@floodgap.com> I see notes around the underweb about people using a custom OpenFirmware loader to get AmigaOS 4 booting on the G4-based Mac mini. This sounds like a ready-made way to create an Amiga laptop -- just use an iBook G4, which is nearly identical technically. Has anyone tried using the Moana loader? I am intrigued by AmigaOS, but I don't really have the space to set up a new PPC Amiga to try it (thus a laptop form factor would be fabulous). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I think, therefore I'm dangerous. ------------------------------------------ From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 18 12:24:27 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:24:27 +0100 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/18/10 7:35 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: >> >> >> >> http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/05/video-ipad-loading-software-onto-apple-e >> > > A 21st century replacement for a Walkman. > > Apparently they've thrown away all of their laptops, which would > have made more sense to use. But, you couldn't get a story in Wired > doing that, now could you? Well, arguably true, but I think the main novelty angle of the story here is using the very latest bit of Apple kit to load software into one of the earliest bits. And quite a fun angle it is, too, albeit of no real technical value or insight. Also, FWIW, I'm slightly surprised they'd use an MP3. I would have thought the compression would do no good at all to the digital signal encoded on the original tape. I'd have gone for something lossless, myself. Although come to that, I wouldn't be surprised if the iPad was so closed-off to the outside world that it couldn't play FLAC. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue May 18 12:26:34 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:26:34 -0500 Subject: questionably OT: AmigaOS 4 on Mac PPC In-Reply-To: <201005181722.o4IHMQ9t016936@floodgap.com> References: <201005181722.o4IHMQ9t016936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Head over to amiga.org and ask again. There are some people there who are using mac minis to run amigaos. On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I see notes around the underweb about people using a custom OpenFirmware > loader to get AmigaOS 4 booting on the G4-based Mac mini. This sounds like > a ready-made way to create an Amiga laptop -- just use an iBook G4, which is > nearly identical technically. Has anyone tried using the Moana loader? I am > intrigued by AmigaOS, but I don't really have the space to set up a new PPC > Amiga to try it (thus a laptop form factor would be fabulous). > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > ?Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I think, therefore I'm dangerous. ------------------------------------------ > From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue May 18 12:28:58 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:28:58 -0500 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Also, FWIW, I'm slightly surprised they'd use an MP3. I would have > thought the compression would do no good at all to the digital signal > encoded on the original tape. I'd have gone for something lossless, > myself. Although come to that, I wouldn't be surprised if the iPad was > so closed-off to the outside world that it couldn't play FLAC. I was thinking the same thing. But I figure the sampling rates with MP3s are far higher than whatever the baud rate of the recording turns out to be. I doubt the tape is faster than a 300 or 1200 baud modem. brian From keithvz at verizon.net Tue May 18 12:31:14 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:31:14 -0400 Subject: questionably OT: AmigaOS 4 on Mac PPC In-Reply-To: <201005181722.o4IHMQ9t016936@floodgap.com> References: <201005181722.o4IHMQ9t016936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4BF2CEE2.7080803@verizon.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I see notes around the underweb about people using a custom OpenFirmware > loader to get AmigaOS 4 booting on the G4-based Mac mini. This sounds like > a ready-made way to create an Amiga laptop -- just use an iBook G4, which is > nearly identical technically. Has anyone tried using the Moana loader? I am > intrigued by AmigaOS, but I don't really have the space to set up a new PPC > Amiga to try it (thus a laptop form factor would be fabulous). Cameron, I haven't heard anyone doing that, but that's pretty darn cool. Please post your results along with pictures, specific versions of whatever software you used, "gotchas", etc! :) I'd be interested to take a look! Keith From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 18 12:32:28 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:32:28 +0100 Subject: questionably OT: AmigaOS 4 on Mac PPC In-Reply-To: <201005181722.o4IHMQ9t016936@floodgap.com> References: <201005181722.o4IHMQ9t016936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I see notes around the underweb about people using a custom OpenFirmware > loader to get AmigaOS 4 booting on the G4-based Mac mini. This sounds like > a ready-made way to create an Amiga laptop -- just use an iBook G4, which is > nearly identical technically. Has anyone tried using the Moana loader? I am > intrigued by AmigaOS, but I don't really have the space to set up a new PPC > Amiga to try it (thus a laptop form factor would be fabulous). Interesting. I've heard of this being done with MorphOS, but not AOS4. I was quite tempted, but as a near-total Amiga newbie/numpty, the instructions looked quite hairy to me. Also note that at least for those I looked at, you more or less had to use the internal drive, and dual-booting was a significantly more complex additional option, not something one might do out of the box. (After all, to Amigans, what possible use or interest is there to Mac OS? Who needs thousands of applications anyway? And that Unix thing, it's over-rated, it'll never catch on...) But recently the HD in my Mac mini died, so I'm going to have to replace it. At least, I think that's what happened. I'm hoping so, anyway - it's about the only failure mode I have a realistic chance of repairing myself. So when I find & fit a new one, I'll need to wipe & reload. To do that, well, I might as well try MorphOS first, and maybe AOS, if I can get hold of a copy. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 18 12:34:06 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 18:34:06 +0100 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:24 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> Also, FWIW, I'm slightly surprised they'd use an MP3. I would have >> thought the compression would do no good at all to the digital signal >> encoded on the original tape. I'd have gone for something lossless, >> myself. Although come to that, I wouldn't be surprised if the iPad was >> so closed-off to the outside world that it couldn't play FLAC. > > I was thinking the same thing. ?But I figure the sampling rates with > MP3s are far higher than whatever the baud rate of the recording turns > out to be. ?I doubt the tape is faster than a 300 or 1200 baud modem. True, and I did consider that - after all, it apparently worked fine. But somehow seems subtly /wrong/ to me. It /ought/ to be uncompressed. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 18 12:44:07 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: questionably OT: AmigaOS 4 on Mac PPC\ In-Reply-To: <4BF2CEE2.7080803@verizon.net> from Keith M at "May 18, 10 01:31:14 pm" Message-ID: <201005181744.o4IHi7of006142@floodgap.com> > > I see notes around the underweb about people using a custom OpenFirmware > > loader to get AmigaOS 4 booting on the G4-based Mac mini. This sounds like > > a ready-made way to create an Amiga laptop -- just use an iBook G4, which is > > nearly identical technically. Has anyone tried using the Moana loader? I am > > intrigued by AmigaOS, but I don't really have the space to set up a new PPC > > Amiga to try it (thus a laptop form factor would be fabulous). > > I haven't heard anyone doing that, but that's pretty darn cool. There are some YouTube videos showing it, but the only other thing I can find is some expired Pirate Bay torrents with the loader, instructions and of course no seeds. I'm hoping someone has the loader portion and I'll add it to a legal copy of AmigaOS. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A straw vote only shows which way the hot air blows. -- O. Henry ----------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 18 12:44:43 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:44:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: questionably OT: AmigaOS 4 on Mac PPC In-Reply-To: from Brian Lanning at "May 18, 10 12:26:34 pm" Message-ID: <201005181744.o4IHihaS005920@floodgap.com> > Head over to amiga.org and ask again. There are some people there who > are using mac minis to run amigaos. I'll check this out. I can't find the loader for download anywhere, though. I find mentions of it and some expired torrents but nothing current. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Where there's a will, there's a probate. ----------------------------------- From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue May 18 12:50:38 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:50:38 -0500 Subject: questionably OT: AmigaOS 4 on Mac PPC In-Reply-To: <201005181744.o4IHihaS005920@floodgap.com> References: <201005181744.o4IHihaS005920@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Head over to amiga.org and ask again. ?There are some people there who >> are using mac minis to run amigaos. > > I'll check this out. I can't find the loader for download anywhere, though. > I find mentions of it and some expired torrents but nothing current. After reading the other post about morphos, now I think I might have this wrong. But check it out anyway. I thought it was AmigaOS. brian From RichA at vulcan.com Tue May 18 12:50:06 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 10:50:06 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <6A0BE51B50A44417B8320F8822E429FA@Edicons.local> from"RodSmallwood" at May 17, 10 07:14:23 am Message-ID: From: RodSmallwood Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 10:23 PM [snip] > ... it would appear that computer museums > are groups of donation funded, unpaid volunteers who seek to aquire as many > inanimate examples as possible. Systems are made to work only to attract > visitors and hence revenue. The members of the groups would much rather the > space was used to store even more non working equipment and keep it out of > sight and accessible only to the select few. Do let me know when you know what you're talking about. Until then, I'm going to ignore you, for the sake of my blood pressure. From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue May 18 12:52:12 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:52:12 -0500 Subject: questionably OT: AmigaOS 4 on Mac PPC\ In-Reply-To: <201005181744.o4IHi7of006142@floodgap.com> References: <4BF2CEE2.7080803@verizon.net> <201005181744.o4IHi7of006142@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > There are some YouTube videos showing it, but the only other thing I can > find is some expired Pirate Bay torrents with the loader, instructions and > of course no seeds. I'm hoping someone has the loader portion and I'll add > it to a legal copy of AmigaOS. Did you check aminet? http://aminet.net/ (That might be suggesting the obvious) I'm not sure if it has what you're after, but it's not failed me yet. brian From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue May 18 13:04:00 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:04:00 -0400 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 13:34, Liam Proven wrote: > True, and I did consider that - after all, it apparently worked fine. > But somehow seems subtly /wrong/ to me. It /ought/ to be uncompressed. In this case, the _optimal_ compression scheme would be to convert raw audio into binary data of the actual bits encoded, then recreate the audio from the bits. Effectively, emulate the tape I/O circuitry of the Apple II. After all, mp3 and friends are compression schemes optimized for the human hearing system, making sure the decoded audio sounds the same as the original audio, while the waveform will not match the original. Given that analog recording devices were designed with the same goal, it's no surprise it works. It's just not efficient :-) If you want to store the data uncompressed, it'd be worth thinking about the sampling rate a bit: my guess is that standard phone rate of 8000 Hz would be sufficient. But it depends on the modulation scheme the Apple uses. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 18 13:11:02 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:11:02 +0100 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 13:34, Liam Proven wrote: >> True, and I did consider that - after all, it apparently worked fine. >> But somehow seems subtly /wrong/ to me. It /ought/ to be uncompressed. > > In this case, the _optimal_ compression scheme would be to convert raw > audio into binary data of the actual bits encoded, then recreate the > audio from the bits. ?Effectively, emulate the tape I/O circuitry of > the Apple II. > > After all, mp3 and friends are compression schemes optimized for the > human hearing system, making sure the decoded audio sounds the same as > the original audio, while the waveform will not match the original. > Given that analog recording devices were designed with the same goal, > it's no surprise it works. ?It's just not efficient :-) Exactly so, yes. > If you want to store the data uncompressed, it'd be worth thinking > about the sampling rate a bit: ?my guess is that standard phone rate > of 8000 Hz would be sufficient. ?But it depends on the modulation > scheme the Apple uses. FLAC <> uncompressed. It's just not /lossy/ compression. It's still highly compressed and on something like a datasette, it should achieve fairly stellar compression rates, I'd think. But I do like your idea of something that generates the signal tones from a binary of the file... :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue May 18 13:46:00 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:46:00 -0400 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 14:11, Liam Proven wrote: >> If you want to store the data uncompressed, it'd be worth thinking >> about the sampling rate a bit: ?my guess is that standard phone rate >> of 8000 Hz would be sufficient. ?But it depends on the modulation >> scheme the Apple uses. > > FLAC <> uncompressed. It's just not /lossy/ compression. It's still > highly compressed and on something like a datasette, it should achieve > fairly stellar compression rates, I'd think. Actually, my guess it it wouldn't do nearly as well as you think, without a little (in fact, trivial) preprocessing. Basically, digitizing the tape would mostly digitize the tape hiss, which can be viewed as white gaussian noise. This doesn't compress with an entropy (lossless) coder very well (at all). Assuming the hiss stays within maybe the lowest 16 quantization levels, you'll still need 4 bits/sample, and no algorithm will get around that. (I'm assuming 16 bits/sample common to modern soundcards) Solution: use fewer levels, 8bits/sample will probably do (but don't use uLaw/ALaw). Better yet, use a noise gate clamping all samples below some threshold to 0. Heck, with some formats, 2 bits/sample with a well-chosen quantizer would probably work. Choose a appropriate sampling rate and you can do better than any audio-oriented compression format, lossy or lossless. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From mtapley at swri.edu Tue May 18 13:20:18 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:20:18 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 81, Issue 46 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:41 -0500 5/18/10, Jeff wrote: >See, having me in your Spacecraft Design class all those years ago is >coming in useful after all. Count the caps and the markings, and email >me. I've got the replacements. Knew it at the time, never doubted it since. Thanks one and all - I'll contact Jeff for parts and more advice if I can't figure out the removal/replacement process. I *really* like being on this list - the on-list and off-list replies have been very gratifying! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 18 14:40:17 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 12:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <119407.90992.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > On 5/18/10 7:35 AM, Christian Liendo > wrote: > > > http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/05/video-ipad-loading-software-onto-apple-e > OK... I don't get it. How is this news now? They've connected something other than a tape player to the cassette input and played audio into the computer. It's still slow as hell. What's wrong with the disk drive again? -Ian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue May 18 14:51:36 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:51:36 -0500 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <119407.90992.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <4BF2CBB9.8020309@bitsavers.org> <119407.90992.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 2:40 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > OK... I don't get it. How is this news now? They've connected something other than a tape player to the cassette input and played audio into the computer. > > It's still slow as hell. > > What's wrong with the disk drive again? Well, it could be broken... or gone. I had a chicken/egg problem when I first received a IIgs and IIe. I had literally no floppy disks for them. But I did have a bunch of disk images. I was able to track down the right serial cable for the IIgs and transfer the disk images from a PC using ADTPro. It worked great. Although it was a bit odd. When boot-strapping from nothing, you use an IN#2 command to "type" bytes read from the serial port into the monitor after a call -151. Then the ADTPro software could run and write itself to a blank floppy disk. This isn't a bad hack for a lot of the older cassette-based computers out there. Just wire the cassette port to the output of the sound card on a PC and keep your library of "tapes" on the PC, or maybe an iPad. brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 13:44:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:44:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <016801caf605$ce9cc390$6bd64ab0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 17, 10 10:13:26 pm Message-ID: > > > Yes "blipping" the coil with a 9V battery moves the heads. When the > > drive > > > was powered on I also measured the voltage by attaching a probe to > > each end > > > of the coil cable, in that case I measured about 1.3V only. So I am > > guessing > > > the coil is OK. Next step is to swap the boards back again. > > > > And then fix the real fault :-) > > > Indeed, if only I knew what it was! As we all well know, funding the fault is often a lot harder than repairing it... Do the schematics for the RD53 exist on the web? I've not looked. Or am I going to have to take one of mine apart and work out how it should work.. This is going to sound silly, but do you have one of those DEC mounting skids fitted? I had problems with an RD53 that wouldn't work if the skid was on. Turns out some component leads were shorting to the ground plate on the skid. A piee of cardboard cured that :-) > The problem for me is how to diagnose this. I am pretty sure the motor is up > to speed. However one thing that does seem slightly odd is that it starts to > spin the disk down quite soon after power up. Previously with the old Is it possible it doesn;t think the motor is properly up to speed? I wonder how it senses that? if it thinks there's a problem with the motor, it will spin down fairly quickly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 13:47:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:47:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <3FAA50F0FB8242EEB17BD575D22DED87@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at May 17, 10 11:23:34 pm Message-ID: > > RodSmallwood [rodsmallwood at btconnect.com] wrote: > > > It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation > > people. One of everything but nothing flies. I just hate > > that. If something was built to run and can run again with > > out damage it should. > > It would be sad to blow up something valuable like a PDP-1. Indeed it would. But how likely is that? A catastrophic failure of the PSU resulting in the machine catching fire would do it, but I hardly think that (a) you would just apply power to see what happens and (b) you wouldn't run it unattended. Which IMHO means that such a failure is very unlikely. > > It would be much sadder to lose the last Lancaster bomber during > a test flight, especially as someone would have to be in it at the > time (to say nothing about where it might end up a few seconds later); > so I'm tempted to cut the aircraft restorers quite a lot more slack > here :-) Oh, sure. Similarly, I can see not taking a very rare classic car on public roads (some idiot might crash into you, no matter how careful you are). But I can see driving such a classic car on a test track somewhere. Aircraft are a lot more risky for all concerned, so I can understand why you'd not want to fly one. But this doesn't apply to classic computers. I can think of no good reason not to run them from time to time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 13:51:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:51:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100517162138.D56810@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 17, 10 04:28:44 pm Message-ID: > > > >Could somebody please give Tony a ride to it? > > >Tony, > > >GO! > > On Mon, 17 May 2010, Mark Tapley wrote: > > Seconded. Most useful post I've seen in weeks. Where do I send > > contributions? Assuming we can make this a zero-sum game (go vs. not > > go) for Tony's finances, I'd like to do that. > > Tony, > If you don't want to go for reasons other than financial, go ahead and say > so. We will respect your right to have a life. > > But, if the reasons ARE financial, many of us would see your attendance > and participation as being a very good thing for classic comuters. I did say the resons were _most_ financial. Which is not the same as 'entirely' :-) More seriosuly, if I could _participate_ I would. But I can't. Now some years ago I attended an event (not really classic computer related, although there was an HP9100B there...) which I feel (to this day) was entirely misorganised. I came away feeling very disapointed and rahter sad, and almost resigned from the organisation that was running it. I seriously think that if I attended a VCF just as a spectator I would be left thinking 'what might have been' and it wouldn't make me at all happy. There really is little point in me attending. Since I wouldn't have anything of interest with me, you could get jsut the same information from me by e-mail. The fact that I don't have a digital camera is irrelevant, since I won't have anyhting to show. SO what is the point? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 13:27:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 19:27:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <01ac01caf602$7b30be80$a0fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 17, 10 06:24:41 pm Message-ID: > > > Didn't know about it?! > > It has been mentioned here before a few months back, but it was probably > part of a thread where the topic drifted. >From what I remember, it was mentioned in passing. There was no clear announcemnt of times/dates, no requests for people to bring along machines and/or give talks/demonstrations/whatever. Where was it officially announced? Where would I have volunteered to drag along one of my more interesting machines? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 14:36:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:36:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at May 17, 10 11:20:33 pm Message-ID: > > > If you really have to isolate a NTSC signal=2C here are your options: > >=20 > > Or just get an isolating video DA at a hamfest for a buck. At least on > > the East coast=2C broadcast quality video stuff is very common. But not, AFAIK, in the UK... > Aww heck Will. Why spend a buck when you can spend so much more=2C and cou= > ntless hours making some obsolete technology perform? I can think of one very good reason. It's called 'Education'. If you jsut use a black-box solution, you don;'t understnad how it works, you don't know how to debug it if it dorsn't work. If you design the thing, then you (hopefuilly) understand what you were trying to do, so when it doesn't work, you know what to test, you can then redesign it to work properly. I get verry worried by jsut throwing black boxes at a problem. Somebody had to design said black box in the first place. And if you don't understnad how it works, who is going to design the next generation of modules? Put it this way : A so-called electronic design (in any area of electronics) who can't work with discrete tranisitors is going to get no respsect from me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 14:19:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:19:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Send Tony off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100517163521.L56810@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 17, 10 04:53:22 pm Message-ID: > > If each of were to contribute one Elbonian leck for each post that you > have made that has been useful to us, then you would be able to go in > style, with luxury hotel, extravagant meals, hookers, champagne, > limousine, parties, AND be able to afford to buy a lot of computer > goodies. The exchange rate must be a lot better than I thought. > In return, we would get your educational enrichment (some of us do see the > value in lifelong learning), maybe some fascinating ACCURATE descriptions I sitll don't see the beneift of me being there. I can do this just as well by e-mail. > of what you see there, and you would be familiar with the event enough to > put together an exhibit for VCF-UK 2.0. > > . . . and you are our friend. FWIW many of my friends are people I've never seen, let alone met... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 14:21:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:21:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF1D7B6.1070007@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 17, 10 07:56:38 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/17/10 7:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > If you don't want to go for reasons other than financial, go ahead and say > > so. We will respect your right to have a life. > > ...or NOT have one. ;) Oh, I have a life. It's zero-player and infinite. * * *** I am pretty sure I was once (accurately) quoted as saying "What's a social life?" Draw your own conclusions. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 14:54:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:54:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "RodSmallwood" at May 18, 10 06:22:30 am Message-ID: > Taking Tony's comments a step further it would appear that computer museums > are groups of donation funded, unpaid volunteers who seek to aquire as many > inanimate examples as possible. Systems are made to work only to attract While it is nice to acquire ever more old computers, it's not essential, IMHO. It's the main reaon why _I_ don't really care I can no longer afford the sort of machiens I would like to add to my collection. I've got quite enough to be going on with for the rest of my natural life. > visitors and hence revenue. The members of the groups would much rather the > space was used to store even more non working equipment and keep it out of > sight and accessible only to the select few. > > I agree with Tony. Systems should be put to work. It matters not if that > work is running a business, controlling a process or showing how they > operate to the general public. After all they where originally designed to Or the main use I put mine to : Teaching this mad enthuisast how computers really work, and how to fix them. > be used and operated by just such people. A computer is not a piece of fine art. It's purpose it not to look beautiful. Its purpose is to compute. A machine with perfect cosmetis which doesn't work is not a computer. On the other hand some of my machines, with the odd crack in the casing, incorrect keycaps, and the like, most certainly _are_ still computers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 14:31:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 20:31:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT - Using optoisolators with composite video signals In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at May 17, 10 10:31:01 pm Message-ID: > It may be just simpler to add an isolation transformer to the monitor=2C or= > if its a 'hot' chasis just be sure the supplies of both systems have no di= I wold not recomend that. As you know, I have nasty things to say about health-n-safety, but I will not have any exposed metalwork directly connected to either side of the mains supply. Period. > fference in hot and neutral. This was the original IBM PC solution=2C reme= > mber the special polarized plug for the monitor=2C that plugged into the CP= > U? No. The IBM MDA monitor had a mains isolating transoformer built-in. Im fact the mains was stepped down to 12V to run the monitor electronics. The CGA nonitor (which plugged into the wall, not into the PC's PSU) had an isolating SMPSU. The power output socket on an IBM PC PSU is just switched mains. It is not isolated in any way. I can think of 2 hot chasiss monitors used with computer-related equipment. Both were converted TVs. One was a Philips used witha Philips Viewdata set. The montor was a modified Philips colour TV which was powered via a special socket on the Viewdata set. This connected to a secondary winding on the Viewdata set's mains transformer (giving about 100V IIRC), this provided the isolation. The other, of couse was the US version of the origianl TRS-80 Model 1 monitor. This was a converted RCA portable TV. The modification involved replacing the IF amplifier PCB with an opto-isolated board. The monitor chassis remained 'hot'. This monitor needed a 5V suppy from the computer to power the LED side of the opto-isolator. FOr the record, the European version of this monitor was not hot-chassis. It had the same chassis run from a 250V - 115V _isolating_ transformer inside the case. The IF PCB was replaced by a simple video amplifier. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 18 15:20:39 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 13:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF2510E.5010100@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BF1DCE0.8050504@philpem.me.uk> <4BF1EC59.10409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4BF2510E.5010100@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100518124553.B95942@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 May 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I tried that -- ?141 for a pair of single tickets... > You know something's wrong when it's cheaper to get a plane ticket from > Leeds to London than to do the same trip by cattle-class train... Travel prices can be bizarre. When my ex priced Oakland to Milwaukee (20 years ago), she could get two one way tickets for the same price as three round trip! It was also cheaper to fly to NYC with a stop in Chicago, than it was to fly to Chicago on the same flight. . . . and some airlines actually try to keep track, and void tickets if you try to use the second leg of a ticket without the first one! How long before the airlines ask for another bailout? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 18 15:28:04 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 21:28:04 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <016801caf605$ce9cc390$6bd64ab0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 17, 10 10:13:26 pm Message-ID: <019901caf6c8$a0095a20$e01c0e60$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 18 May 2010 19:44 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD53 Restoration > > > > > Yes "blipping" the coil with a 9V battery moves the heads. When > the > > > drive > > > > was powered on I also measured the voltage by attaching a probe > to > > > each end > > > > of the coil cable, in that case I measured about 1.3V only. So I > am > > > guessing > > > > the coil is OK. Next step is to swap the boards back again. > > > > > > And then fix the real fault :-) > > > > > > Indeed, if only I knew what it was! > > As we all well know, funding the fault is often a lot harder than > repairing it... > > Do the schematics for the RD53 exist on the web? I've not looked. Or am > I > going to have to take one of mine apart and work out how it should > work.. > > This is going to sound silly, but do you have one of those DEC mounting > skids fitted? I had problems with an RD53 that wouldn't work if the > skid > was on. Turns out some component leads were shorting to the ground > plate > on the skid. A piee of cardboard cured that :-) > > > The problem for me is how to diagnose this. I am pretty sure the > motor is up > > to speed. However one thing that does seem slightly odd is that it > starts to > > spin the disk down quite soon after power up. Previously with the old > > Is it possible it doesn;t think the motor is properly up to speed? I > wonder how it senses that? if it thinks there's a problem with the > motor, > it will spin down fairly quickly. > Could that be because the new boards are a different rev and perhaps expect something different? The other thing I have just remembered is that the new boards are missing the graphite pad under the spindle, but then again I have run the original boards successfully with the bottom board lifted up so I can probe voltages, so not sure that would have any effect. I have yet to find the time to put back the old boards, I get home late and have to be up early. But I will swap them again as soon as I can. Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 18 15:51:57 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 16:51:57 -0400 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/18/10, Tony Duell wrote: > This is going to sound silly, but do you have one of those DEC mounting > skids fitted? I had problems with an RD53 that wouldn't work if the skid > was on. Turns out some component leads were shorting to the ground plate > on the skid. A piee of cardboard cured that :-) That's not silly at all. That has happened to multiple people. It was a "well known" thing when RD53s were in use all over the world. There's even a special DEC-made purpose-cut mylar insulator sheet, IIRC, but cardboard works fine. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 18 16:24:28 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100518142031.L96710@shell.lmi.net> > I did say the resons were _most_ financial. Which is not the same as > 'entirely' :-) OK We'd be glad to help with the financial component, but I don't think that we can do much else. > More seriosuly, if I could _participate_ I would. But I can't. > . . . > I seriously think that if I attended a VCF just as a spectator I would be > left thinking 'what might have been' and it wouldn't make me at all > happy. Well, maybe next time. Let's hope that they do a bit more in announcing it then. From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 18 16:25:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 14:25:46 -0700 Subject: Intel MCS-8 cards still available Message-ID: <4BF2A36A.18748.15563EF@cclist.sydex.com> Folks, Awhile back, I posted a message from someone with a few Intel MCS-8 cards available. He still hasn't received any tickles on them. They can't be all that common. Email me if you'd like and I'll pass the message along. AFAIK, the cards are in the USA. --Chuck From Gary at realtimecomp.com Tue May 18 17:18:36 2010 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 15:18:36 -0700 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps) References: <4C00F0169D6F4BE1A294F1969272A7AA@RealTime.local> Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970C511F@server1.RealTime.local> Scaled Composites was bought by Northrop Grumman in 2007. Doubtful it will compete with it's parent company in any meaningful way. ________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Shoppa, Tim Sent: Mon 5/17/2010 10:15 AM To: Gary Subject: Re: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps) Al writes: > I've always wanted to give Burt Rutan a run at a Space Shuttle > replacement. I bet he'd do something really nice. > His White Knight/Spaceship One combo seems pretty innovative. But, > that's not intended to be a Shuttle replacement. I actually hope he doesn't do "a Space Shuttle replacement". The Space Shuttle is a classic example of scope creep. It had to do everything. In the end it did do most all of everything, and it did it each of them pretty well, but it was much more complicated than needed for any one task, and schedules and budgets were blown out of the water. But excepting schedules and budgets... it did surprisingly well. What Burt Rutan could do, is a family of replacements, each of which does one of the shuttle's tasks well. Some stages/assemblies/technologies would probably end up being shared and that's great. Tim. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Tue May 18 17:37:37 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 23:37:37 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF316B1.8040206@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > A computer is not a piece of fine art. It's purpose it not to look > beautiful. Its purpose is to compute. A machine with perfect cosmetis > which doesn't work is not a computer. On the other hand some of my > machines, with the odd crack in the casing, incorrect keycaps, and the > like, most certainly _are_ still computers. That's very much my philosophy too, though having a nice looking well kept machine is nice, having one that doesn't look quite as good but works is better. One of the reasons I have no problem breaking waranty seals, or replacing bits of a machine so that it works, even if it isn't 'original'. After all who want's an original machine that doesn't work. Hell I've even been known to build clones of original machines so that I have an example (Acorn Atom and Dragon Alpha prototype, though I do have an original Atom now). For pretty much the same reason, all the books I have, have been read even if they are reasonably valuable first editions etc. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 18 18:23:15 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 16:23:15 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> When I showed off a DEC GT40 vector graphics terminal at the VCF, I used a Palm III to load the Moonlander game into it, but I didn't get written up in Wired. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue May 18 19:51:45 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 17:51:45 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201005181751.46015.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 18 May 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > When I showed off a DEC GT40 vector graphics terminal at the VCF, I used > a Palm III to load the Moonlander game into it, but I didn't get written > up in Wired. It should have had a photo op spread!!! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue May 18 23:00:09 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 00:00:09 -0400 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <012901caf517$84ded750$8e9c85f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <012901caf517$84ded750$8e9c85f0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4BF36249.1080206@hawkmountain.net> I had one of these drives that behaved this way. As I figured I had nothing to lose, I opened it op and watched it operate.... The theory I came to was that the stopper material changed dimension with age and the drive could not get to track zero. I loosened the stopper and ever so slightly (2-3? thousandths of an inch ?) to let the heads further outward (as I recall). After doing that and reassembling.... it worked fine. I did not put a lot of 'miles' on the disk after that.... I had already put a different disk in service... but for the time I used/recovered data/tested it it powered up 100% every time after that 'repair'. I can't say if my theory is right.... and it could have been just dumb luck... but I thought I'd relay what I did... as if you don't get it to function any other way you don't stand much to lose by trying it. I believe I've read talk on here about homemade 'clean rooms' .... obviously the less dust/particulate matter you get in the drive the better the chances of longer term survival. -- Curt Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have posted before about an RD53 I am trying to get back to working order. > After unsticking the heads I thought I had a working disk as I have been > able to format it and do an image restore of the VMS installation media to > it. However, intermittently it has been failing. When this happens the heads > completely fail to move when I power on the disk, so the controller and > firmware cannot even determine its size. After a few moments the disk spins > down. As I said, this is intermittent, sometimes it will work OK. > > A friend has been helping me and he gave me a complete set of the three > boards in the RD53 from a known working disk (he can't give me the disk for > reasons not worth going into). I changed all three boards and the drive > still completely fails to move the heads, in fact now the fault seems > permanent. My friend suggested that the positioning coil may be faulty. He > measured the resistance of the coil on one of his working disks (at the plug > that goes to the coil from the motor control board), it came to 3 ohms, mine > also measured 3 ohms. I measured the voltage at the plug going to the coil, > one reads 2V the other 3V, but when it works they both go to about 5V. > > Can anyone suggest what might be the problem? > > Thanks > > Rob > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 19 01:02:28 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 23:02:28 -0700 Subject: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... In-Reply-To: <10437.99049.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <877073.84585.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <10437.99049.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Pierre, Have you made any progress on your system yet? Getting my PDP-11 and QT13 cabled up and tested with my M2444AC is still on my to do list. I'll try to do that tomorrow evening and report back. I got side tracked on building up a KA630 BA123 system I just aquired (which is now a KA655 system with a VCB02). On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 2:22 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Hi Glen, > > thanks for looking up the settings for me, it would be of great help ! > In order to help you quickly : You can find the procedure to start the QT13-diagnostics on page 2-13 of the QT13 manual (to be found on bitsavers.org). > Even the switch settings can be read out via the diagnostics menu, so no need to open up your system. > > Best regards, > Pierre From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 19 01:35:43 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 23:35:43 -0700 Subject: Looking for CMD CQD-200/TM or CQD-200/M EPROM images In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90911032113i3210025el86c84ca426e3fe5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90911032113i3210025el86c84ca426e3fe5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Here's a follow up to my own post from last year. I started with a CMD CQD-200/T SCSI tape controller, which was actually labeled as an MTi QTS-30 tape controller. It worked as a tape controller but a /M disk controller or /TM tape + disk controller would be a lot more useful. I reverse engineered a /TM CSR decode PAL but it would still only function as a tape controller with the /T firmware I had (F200T1C6B/F200T2C6B). Eventually I found someone with a CQD-200/M and they sent me /M firmware (F20001E1/F20002E1) and I was able to successfully use my /T as a /M with the /M firmware and the /TM CSR decode PAL. The only issue I had is that it wouldn't boot from a SCSI CD-ROM drive in a PDP-11 system. Then just recently I acquired a BA123 box and was pleasantly surprised to find a CQD-200/TM inside it when I opened it up. I copied that firmware (F200Y1A8C/F200Y2A8C) on to my CQD-200/T and now it functions as a CQD-200/TM and now it will also boot from a SCSI CD-ROM drive in a PDP-11 system (I find it handy to be able to boot XXDP from CD-ROM). So anyway, if anyone has a CQD-200/T (or MTi QTS-30) or CQD-200/M and they want to turn it into a CQD-200/TM it can be done and I can provide firmware and CSR decode PAL images. -Glen On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 10:13 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Does anyone have a CMD CQD-200/TM or CQD-200/M and an EPROM programmer > or other means of reading the EPROM images that could send me a copy? > I think I have mostly figured out the CSR decode PAL for a CQD-200/T > and programmed a new one and now it responds to both the disk and tape > CSRs, but only the tape CSR looks like it has normal values. ?Maybe I > also need to replace the EPROMs with CQD-200/TM or CQD-200/M EPROM > images to get it to respond normally to the disk CSR. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed May 19 02:26:00 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 03:26:00 -0400 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 In-Reply-To: References: <4BF0D63B.7030804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BF39288.2040606@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >>> It's fun to read this stuff. I didn't realize microchannel was >>> available from anyone but IBM. And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. :-) >>> >>> http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ >> >> Tandy wasn't the only other company making MCA machines. NCR made quite a >> few different models. I believe Siemens made one or two as well. > > And Apricot, who made the only non-IBM MCA boxes I personally ever worked on. > > If there are any MCA collectors out there, I still have a whole pile > of cards I'm trying to give away... Free for the postage. I'd love to have them, if only you weren't all the way over there. Peace... Sridhar From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Wed May 19 05:24:59 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 06:24:59 -0400 Subject: [OT] Space Shuttle and ISS (was Re: Amiga 1000 helps win againstpatent troll...) Message-ID: <20100519102459.6ABBFBA5631@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Originally the plan was to replace it with two systems: > * crew launched in an Orion capsule on an Ares I > * cargo (heavy lift) launched on an Ares V > Obama and the NASA administrator want to cancel Ares I, but Congress > might block that. > Ares I is an incredibly stupid design, but if we cancel it we will have > no capability of launching manned missions at all. I've seen this from at least 3 different sides: science, contractor, and government. >From a science perspective, everything being done in the 60's couldn't have been done without the government. Lots of science being done today can't be done without the government. But the scientists don't need any rockets more advanced than what we were doing in the 60's and 70's. They would appreciate simplificiation. But when your instrument is a one of a kind you would kind of prefer that it not blow up on the pad so there is conservatism at least at the expensive end of the project scale. At the low end of the project scale there are plenty of projects who wuold be glad to build five instruments (because they're cheap) with the hope that at least one makes it into space. >From a government perspective, everything has to be done in the "Ten Year Plan" style because there's never enough money to get it done in one year. But stretching it out over ten years in fact makes it more expensive. Things get real expensive for the government, especially a balkanized 40+ year old agency like NASA. Others might say that in a spiteful tone, but I honestly say it in sympathy because I know how people struggle to get good simple cheap science done in an agency that at many levels is thinking only about the ten-year zillion dollar programs. >From the contractor perspective, it's hard to compete against the Russians. You have to do more or better than the Russians, not the same, to compete. But more or better is always more expensive and longer to do... and it's often more than is actually needed too! The big ones try to be clever by buying the cheap startups but I wonder if the cheap startup simply gets stifled in the beauracracy. Tim. From pinball at telus.net Tue May 18 10:04:45 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 08:04:45 -0700 Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: <4BF147B7.24794.F5A58F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BF0336B.8790.240084B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BF147B7.24794.F5A58F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BF2AC8D.1040700@telus.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 May 2010 at 7:34, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > >> Sure, for $375... In their dreams. >> > > Okay, how about masking and painting the missing contact with some > silver- or copper-conductive PCB repair paint, then electroplating a > few mils of copper onto that? Finish with a gold flash and it should > work like the original. > > --Chuck > > > That won't work for edge connectors - it would disintegrate under contact wiping and/or pressure. Particularly if the pad is passing any current (power rails). John :-#)# From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue May 18 17:02:41 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 17:02:41 -0500 Subject: looking for SGI granite mice Message-ID: hello, I'm looking for about 5 (or any number I can get close to) granite SGI mice, the first edition "mouse systems" non-logitech version. I have seen them on ebay, but what they are trying to pull for them seems a bit ridiculous. Thanks! -Joe From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 19 09:01:48 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:01:48 +0100 Subject: $8500 Tandy ad from 1989 In-Reply-To: <4BF39288.2040606@gmail.com> References: <4BF0D63B.7030804@gmail.com> <4BF39288.2040606@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >>>> >>>> It's fun to read this stuff. ?I didn't realize microchannel was >>>> available from anyone but IBM. ?And notice how it's MS(R) OS/2. ?:-) >>>> >>>> http://www.stephenbailey.com/technology/what-8499-bought-in-1989/ >>> >>> Tandy wasn't the only other company making MCA machines. ?NCR made quite >>> a >>> few different models. ?I believe Siemens made one or two as well. >> >> And Apricot, who made the only non-IBM MCA boxes I personally ever worked >> on. >> >> If there are any MCA collectors out there, I still have a whole pile >> of cards I'm trying to give away... Free for the postage. > > I'd love to have them, if only you weren't all the way over there. Happy to send by surface post, at cost. It's not that bad - I regularly send books to the USA via http://www.Bookmooch.com ! Costs less than a decent 2nd-hand book costs to buy here in the UK. How much used books are in 'Murca I don't know. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 19 10:13:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 08:13:06 -0700 Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: <4BF2AC8D.1040700@telus.net> References: , <4BF147B7.24794.F5A58F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BF2AC8D.1040700@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BF39D92.7216.B7B83@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 May 2010 at 8:04, John Robertson wrote: > That won't work for edge connectors - it would disintegrate under > contact wiping and/or pressure. Particularly if the pad is passing any > current (power rails). I don't understand why this would be the case. Copper is copper, whether it's foil glued on or electroplated. Heck, during the 80's, PCBs that were *all* electrodeposition (no etching) were widely produced. An electroless copper process formed the base, which was then electroplated to the desired thickness. PCB vias are still formed this way. Thickness isn't an issue--whole parts are sometimes produced by electrodeposition of copper, far greater than the thickness of the foil used in PCBs. Can you offer a cite or some rationale as to why electrodeposited copper is inferior to foil? Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 19 10:35:06 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:35:06 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <20100517162138.D56810@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > >Could somebody please give Tony a ride to it? >> > >Tony, >> > >GO! >> >> On Mon, 17 May 2010, Mark Tapley wrote: >> > Seconded. Most useful post I've seen in weeks. Where do I send >> > contributions? Assuming we can make this a zero-sum game (go vs. not >> > go) for Tony's finances, I'd like to do that. >> >> Tony, >> If you don't want to go for reasons other than financial, go ahead and say >> so. ?We will respect your right to have a life. >> >> But, if the reasons ARE financial, many of us would see your attendance >> and participation as being a very good thing for classic comuters. > > I did say the resons were _most_ financial. Which is not the same as > 'entirely' :-) > > More seriosuly, if I could _participate_ I would. But I can't. OK, well, ISTM that there's an obvious question here that has not been asked. Please tell me if the following is not a fair summary... You said you couldn't afford to attend. You've been offered a lift and a whip-round to pay membership and so on, but that is apparently not enough. You said that you see no point in attending in person if you can't bring along a machine or machines to exhibit. So, as a thought experiment at this point in time, what would you wish to bring along? What space would you want or need to properly display it? And how much space would you need to transport it? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed May 19 12:02:29 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <982238.38380.qm@web114619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> PDF report, "History of NSA General-Purpose Electronic Digital Computers": http://www.governmentattic.org/3docs/NSA-HGPEDC_1964.pdf From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed May 19 13:12:35 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 13:12:35 -0500 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: <982238.38380.qm@web114619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <982238.38380.qm@web114619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 10:02:29 -0700 > From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com > Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > PDF report, "History of NSA General-Purpose Electronic Digital Computers": > > http://www.governmentattic.org/3docs/NSA-HGPEDC_1964.pdf > > > Nice. Also of interest, is specific changes / additions to the instruction sets that the NSA requested. Seymour Cray knew they were going to be his best customer. Take a look at his 'population count' sideways add, a useful instruction in cryptography. It was included in all the Cray machines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_weight Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 19 13:49:27 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 12:49:27 -0600 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 19 May 2010 13:12:35 -0500. Message-ID: Its too bad the pictures were only scanned at FAX resolution. I wonder how you could file an FOIA request to get prints of the photos or quality scans? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 19 14:20:13 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 12:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> References: <555645.93267.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20100519121852.C45914@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 May 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > When I showed off a DEC GT40 vector graphics terminal at the VCF, I used > a Palm III to load the Moonlander game into it, but I didn't get written > up in Wired. Would they have been more interested if you had done it using APPLE products? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 19 14:43:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:43:29 -0400 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ?I > wonder how you could file an FOIA request to get prints of the photos > or quality scans? FOUO is exempt from FOI. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 19 14:24:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:24:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <019901caf6c8$a0095a20$e01c0e60$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 18, 10 09:28:04 pm Message-ID: > Could that be because the new boards are a different rev and perhaps expect It's always possible. This is one reason why I really dislike board-swapping. It is much easier to repair a configuration that has worked once than one you don't know if it should work. I wonder if this drive depends on reading something from the platter as ssonas the motor is up to speed (say a servo pattern). if so, then if the heads are moved to far in or out , it may fail Did this drive suffer from the well-known 'sticky bumper' problem? If so, what have you done about it? Is it possible that if you just removed the old bumper that the heads are outside the servo area sometimes? > something different? The other thing I have just remembered is that the new > boards are missing the graphite pad under the spindle, but then again I have > run the original boards successfully with the bottom board lifted up so I > can probe voltages, so not sure that would have any effect. That should have no effect at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 19 14:28:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:28:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 18, 10 04:51:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/18/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > This is going to sound silly, but do you have one of those DEC mounting > > skids fitted? I had problems with an RD53 that wouldn't work if the skid > > was on. Turns out some component leads were shorting to the ground plate > > on the skid. A piee of cardboard cured that :-) > > That's not silly at all. That has happened to multiple people. It How many people where, who restore and run old hardware, have never been caught out by a 'silly fault'? My guess (if you are honest) is exactly zero :-). I will admit to spending quite a time figuring out why all the outputs of a PSU were sitting at zero volts ony to discover the fuse in the mains plug was misisng (not blown, actaully removed). Or the time I spend a morning tracing waveforms through the video board ina VT101 to sort out a low-contrast problem, only to find the real fault was that the CRT screen needed a good clean. > was a "well known" thing when RD53s were in use all over the world. > There's even a special DEC-made purpose-cut mylar insulator sheet, > IIRC, but cardboard works fine. A piece of cardboard was a lot cheaper than trying to get a part out of DEC :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 19 14:32:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:32:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100518142031.L96710@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 18, 10 02:24:28 pm Message-ID: > > > I did say the resons were _most_ financial. Which is not the same as > > 'entirely' :-) > > OK > We'd be glad to help with the financial component, but I don't think that > we can do much else. Not now, no... > > > More seriosuly, if I could _participate_ I would. But I can't. > > . . . > > I seriously think that if I attended a VCF just as a spectator I would be > > left thinking 'what might have been' and it wouldn't make me at all > > happy. > > Well, maybe next time. Let's hope that they do a bit more in announcing If I am still around for the 'next time'. Which is my no means certain. And if I am still interested in classic computers. After this event, I am beginning to think I've been totally wasting my time. > it then. I am still wondering whre it was organised and announced. Why was there not a 'call for machines' on this list, for example? Darn it, if you _really_ wanted me to come, why didn't somebody e-mail me? And who decided to hold it at BP, and why? I agree with Philip, it is hardly an ideal venue. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 19 14:39:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:39:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF316B1.8040206@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at May 18, 10 11:37:37 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > A computer is not a piece of fine art. It's purpose it not to look > > beautiful. Its purpose is to compute. A machine with perfect cosmetis > > which doesn't work is not a computer. On the other hand some of my > > machines, with the odd crack in the casing, incorrect keycaps, and the > > like, most certainly _are_ still computers. > > That's very much my philosophy too, though having a nice looking well > kept machine is nice, having one that doesn't look quite as good but > works is better. Of course. I don't delibeartly put the wrong keycaps on my machines, or scratch up the cases, or anytthing like that. But I will spend a lot longer geting it working properly that I would, say, on polishing the case. I don't, for example, ever respray the cases. > > One of the reasons I have no problem breaking waranty seals, or I don;t think I own anything with teh waranty seals intact :-) > replacing bits of a machine so that it works, even if it isn't > 'original'. After all who want's an original machine that doesn't work. > > Hell I've even been known to build clones of original machines so that I > have an example (Acorn Atom and Dragon Alpha prototype, though I do have > an original Atom now). I've never gone that far, although I can sasily see why you would. I've built plenty of add-ons though. > > For pretty much the same reason, all the books I have, have been read > even if they are reasonably valuable first editions etc. Indeed. Books are for reading, not for looking nice on a shelf. I think I've mentioned that that when I bought a shrink-wrapped HP71B service manual, the first thing I did, to the am,azement of everyone in the room (who were HP collectors) was to rip off the shrink wrap. I pointed out I didn't care about the financial value, I bought this book to learn how the HP71B works and how to repair it The most valuable book I own (I think) is not read that often, mainly because I don't need to refer to it that often. But I do handle it, I do allow others to look at it. What is it? (it's even on topic..) An autographed first edition of 'Automatic Digital Computers' by M. V. Wilkes. I got it in a school library sale, so it's not in great condition (got the library stamp in it, etc), but I susepct it's not exactly common. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 19 14:42:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:42:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 18, 10 04:23:15 pm Message-ID: > > When I showed off a DEC GT40 vector graphics terminal at the VCF, I used > a Palm III to load the Moonlander game into it, but I didn't get written Wimp :-). When I demonstrated my homebrew GT40 (11/05 + VT11 in a hand-wrapped backplane), I had custom-programmed boot ROMs and a Trend papper tape reader... > up in Wired. I am stil lowndering what is so great about replacing something with 10 transsitors (a cassette recorder) with something with sevreral million transistos, I know which I'd rather have to keep running in 40 years time (and yes, I do have a cassette recorder over that age, all it's ever needed are new belts). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 19 14:49:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:49:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at May 19, 10 04:35:06 pm Message-ID: > You said you couldn't afford to attend. No, I said I wouldn't be attending for several reasons, mainly financial. That is not the same thing at all. I do not consider it to be a sensible use of my (very limited) money to attend an event that I am not going to enjoy. Seriously, if you have spare money, give it to a charity., Me attending VCF-UK is not essential to anyones life. Having clean water (for example) is, and there are far too many people in the world without that. > > You've been offered a lift and a whip-round to pay membership and so > on, but that is apparently not enough. You said that you see no point > in attending in person if you can't bring along a machine or machines > to exhibit. > > So, as a thought experiment at this point in time, what would you wish > to bring along? What space would you want or need to properly display > it? And how much space would you need to transport it? It is far too late now both (I guess) for booking space at VCF and for me to prepare anything. I would have to select a machine (prefereably one that few others were goign to demonstrate) check it over, sort out some fun demonstrations, make sure I understood it totally (just in case somebody asks an awkward question, etc). That takes a lot of time. As foir what machines? Well, maybe a selection of early HP desktop calculators. Maybe a PERQ or 2. I susepct others will have PDPs and all the common micros... -tony From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 19 15:11:32 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:11:32 -0500 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: <982238.38380.qm@web114619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <982238.38380.qm@web114619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Very nice, but all before my time there. One of the guys I worked with brought in a mid1975? issue of Playboy with an interseting article on them. It touched some on their "mods" to equipment. I know some one who might have it, and will try to post it if I can find it. I think "Puzzle Palace" was the first book written on "No Such Agency" and several others followed. I have several of them, and can post names if anyone is interested. And what beat toys! Paul On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:02 PM, William Blair wrote: > PDF report, "History of NSA General-Purpose Electronic Digital Computers": > > http://www.governmentattic.org/3docs/NSA-HGPEDC_1964.pdf > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 19 15:33:57 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 13:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: from Paul Anderson at "May 19, 10 03:11:32 pm" Message-ID: <201005192033.o4JKXvCg015956@floodgap.com> > One of the guys I worked with brought in a mid1975? issue of Playboy with an > interseting article on them. Mr Pibb -> keyboard -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A good pun is its own reword. ---------------------------------------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 19 15:44:04 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 13:44:04 -0700 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: <201005192033.o4JKXvCg015956@floodgap.com> References: Message-ID: Hi What fun it would have been to take the fellow that wrote the article an bring him into the future today for just one day. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From ragooman at comcast.net Wed May 19 15:47:32 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:47:32 -0400 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: References: <982238.38380.qm@web114619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BF44E64.1090303@comcast.net> Paul Anderson wrote: > Very nice, but all before my time there. > > One of the guys I worked with brought in a mid1975? issue of Playboy with an > interseting article on them. At SEL, we had contracts with the NSA and one of my old colleagues described how one contract there during the 70's involved a Listening Post in Iran which he had to install, called King's Knight (probably not declassified but oh well). They eventually had to thermite the installation obviously once the country was overthrown thanks to Khomeini . =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/computers_mini_sel.html From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 19 15:58:45 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 21:58:45 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <019901caf6c8$a0095a20$e01c0e60$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 18, 10 09:28:04 pm Message-ID: <01bb01caf796$134aba60$39e02f20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 19 May 2010 20:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: RD53 Restoration > > > Could that be because the new boards are a different rev and perhaps > expect > > It's always possible. This is one reason why I really dislike > board-swapping. It is much easier to repair a configuration that has > worked once than one you don't know if it should work. > > I wonder if this drive depends on reading something from the platter as > ssonas the motor is up to speed (say a servo pattern). if so, then if > the > heads are moved to far in or out , it may fail > > Did this drive suffer from the well-known 'sticky bumper' problem? If > so, > what have you done about it? Is it possible that if you just removed > the > old bumper that the heads are outside the servo area sometimes? > Yes, this drive did have a sticky bumper. I resolved it by putting a very thin sliver of tape over the sticky bit. I did not loosen any bolts, but there is a bit of play in the heads when they are at rest and fully retracted. Regards Rob From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 19 16:19:03 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:19:03 -0500 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: <4BF44E64.1090303@comcast.net> References: <982238.38380.qm@web114619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BF44E64.1090303@comcast.net> Message-ID: I think that was a FLR-9. We had one at Chicksands. Google RAF Chicksands, and there is a link somewhere for it. It took up anout 39 acres. Paul On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 3:47 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > Paul Anderson wrote: > >> Very nice, but all before my time there. >> >> One of the guys I worked with brought in a mid1975? issue of Playboy with >> an >> interseting article on them. >> > > At SEL, we had contracts with the NSA and one of my old colleagues > described how one contract there during the 70's involved a Listening Post > in Iran which he had to install, called King's Knight (probably not > declassified but oh well). They eventually had to thermite the installation > obviously once the country was overthrown thanks to Khomeini . > > =Dan > > -- > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/computers_mini_sel.html > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 19 16:43:18 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 22:43:18 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <01bb01caf796$134aba60$39e02f20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <019901caf6c8$a0095a20$e01c0e60$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 18, 10 09:28:04 pm <01bb01caf796$134aba60$39e02f20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01bc01caf79c$4cb4da00$e61e8e00$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 19 May 2010 21:59 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: RD53 Restoration > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 19 May 2010 20:25 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: RD53 Restoration > > > > > Could that be because the new boards are a different rev and > perhaps > > expect > > > > It's always possible. This is one reason why I really dislike > > board-swapping. It is much easier to repair a configuration that has > > worked once than one you don't know if it should work. > > > > I wonder if this drive depends on reading something from the platter > as > > ssonas the motor is up to speed (say a servo pattern). if so, then if > > the > > heads are moved to far in or out , it may fail > > > > Did this drive suffer from the well-known 'sticky bumper' problem? If > > so, > > what have you done about it? Is it possible that if you just removed > > the > > old bumper that the heads are outside the servo area sometimes? > > > > > Yes, this drive did have a sticky bumper. I resolved it by putting a > very > thin sliver of tape over the sticky bit. I did not loosen any bolts, > but > there is a bit of play in the heads when they are at rest and fully > retracted. > > > Regards > > Rob I have just put the original boards back in and powered up the drive twice. I powered it up twice and both times the heads moved briefly. I used a multimeter (it is all I have) to measure the voltage across the two leads to the coil. The first time I noticed that the voltage briefly went to about 1.3V, the second time it was always 0V although it looked like the multimeter may have noticed a change which was too fast for it. I then tried a few more times and these times the voltage went to 1.3 immediately. Then when the heads moved it went to about 4V and after that it went to 0V. So either I was measuring incorrectly the first two times, or there is still something not right even when the heads do move. Would be interested to know if anyone else sees these voltages. I have another RD53 which I can dig out at the weekend to compare. Thanks Rob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 19 17:58:25 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 15:58:25 -0700 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers References: <982238.38380.qm@web114619.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BF46D11.6AEB88EA@cs.ubc.ca> William Blair wrote: > > PDF report, "History of NSA General-Purpose Electronic Digital Computers": > > http://www.governmentattic.org/3docs/NSA-HGPEDC_1964.pdf Neat find, I like the mention of the 1940's ERA/Atlas, STRETCH, and the 60's Harvest system. 'Fast' core memory with "multi-hole cores" sounds interesting too. William Donzelli wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > ?I > > wonder how you could file an FOIA request to get prints of the photos > > or quality scans? Too bad, indeed, about the poor picture quality. > FOUO is exempt from FOI. (Not my jurisdiction, but) according to the title page the report was released under an FOIA request despite being stamped FOUO. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 19 18:48:26 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 16:48:26 -0700 Subject: silly faults / was Re: RD53 Restoration References: Message-ID: <4BF478CA.112B742@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > How many people where, who restore and run old hardware, have never been > caught out by a 'silly fault'? My guess (if you are honest) is exactly > zero :-). I will admit to spending quite a time figuring out why all the > outputs of a PSU were sitting at zero volts ony to discover the fuse in > the mains plug was misisng (not blown, actaully removed). Or the time I > spend a morning tracing waveforms through the video board ina VT101 to > sort out a low-contrast problem, only to find the real fault was that the > CRT screen needed a good clean. A while ago I was working on a calculator which intermittently would not respond to several keys (failure seemed to correlate with low ambient temperature). 5V levels were OK, some involved diagnosis - including construction of extension connectors - traced it to an IC involved in the matrix scanning and I replaced the IC. The next time the temperature was low the problem showed up again. I had measured the 5V level on the logic board with the power supply. The 'faulty' IC was on a sub-board, the problem turned out to be a connector feeding the 5V supply between the two boards: the 5V supply on the sub-board was marginal and the 'faulty' IC had merely been the first to fail. I'm still annoyed I messed around with replacing an IC in an otherwise-original machine, when I all needed to do was clean a contact, esp. when I know better. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 19 19:15:12 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 17:15:12 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe References: Message-ID: <4BF47F0F.7E54CC9A@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > I am stil lowndering what is so great about replacing something with 10 > transsitors (a cassette recorder) with something with sevreral million > transistos, Those several million transistors may actually use fewer atoms than the 10 transistors in the cassette player when one includes packaging. I like simplicity too, but there are many ways of assessing which 'fewer' is better. We could have a big debate about it and end up demeaning ourselves by sounding like economists. > I know which I'd rather have to keep running in 40 years > time (and yes, I do have a cassette recorder over that age, all it's ever > needed are new belts). I think the concept is that in 40 years the choice will be the 70-year old cassette player vs. whatever the future playback technology is, not the then-40-year-old now-current playback technology. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed May 19 22:50:12 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 20:50:12 -0700 Subject: Don't know if anyone cares, but... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just an update... the IBM arrived today via FedEx Ground, and the seller on EBay did a very good job of packing it. I opened it up and it was immaculate inside. It contains a 256KB motherboard, a mono/parallel card, a serial card and the floppy controller (for both drives). It booted just fine! I have only had time to take one photo, but it can be seen here: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4090111&l=c8189e6100&id=734972117 Mark On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 1:58 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > I don't know if anyone on the list will care of not, but I just > purchased a classic IBM PC (original model 5150) with a monochrome > card and monitor for $45 on EBay. ?According to the seller, it was in > storage at a museum for 18 years. ?They pulled it out, dusted it and > it booted DOS right away. ?It's a dual-floppy model. > > I won't know more until it arrives, but it was sitting at zero bids > until I bid on it with < 15 minutes left in the auction. ?The > description the seller had used was a bit misleading and seemed to > imply only the monitor was for sale, but I confirmed it was the entire > system. > > I thought that was a pretty good deal, considering how much I paid for > my first IBM PC back in 1983 or so. :) ?After that, I was at Weird > Stuff Warehouse and they were asking $100 just for the monochrome > monitor! ?But, while there, I did pick up some software bargains: ?A > sealed copy of CA-CommonView (C++ GUI Library) for OS/2 for $3 and a > copy of SCO Unixware 7 (appears complete) for $5. ?I love Weird Stuff! > > Feel free to ignore this if it's too off-topic for the list. :) > > Mark > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 20 00:55:55 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 22:55:55 -0700 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF4CEEB.8010706@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > FOUO is exempt from FOI. > That may have been true at one time, but certainly is not now. FOUO documents are only exempt from FOIA if they are covered by one of the categories of information that are exempted from FOIA by statute. Some part of the government, including the DoD, have a policy of designating documents FOUO if they *may* contain information that is exempted from FOIA, but the FOUO designation itself is neither necessary nor sufficient for the document to be exempted. 32 CFR 286.15(b) Prior FOUO application. The prior application of FOUO markings is not a conclusive basis for withholding a record that is requested under the FOIA. When such a record is requested, the information in it shall be evaluated to determine whether disclosure would result in a foreseeable harm to an interest protected by one or more FOIA exemptions 2 through 9. Even if any exemptions apply, the record shall be released as a discretionary matter when it is determined that there is no foreseeable harm to an interest protected by the exemptions. See also: http://rf-web.tamu.edu/security/Security%20Guide/S2unclas/Fouo.htm http://www.ig.navy.mil/Divisions/Legal/FOIA%20%28QandA%29.htm#Are%20FOIA%20and%20For%20Official%20Use%20Only%20%28FOUO%29%20the%20same http://www.dlis.dla.mil/fouo.asp From pinball at telus.net Wed May 19 11:53:52 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 19 May 2010 09:53:52 -0700 Subject: Edge connector repair In-Reply-To: <4BF39D92.7216.B7B83@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BF147B7.24794.F5A58F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BF2AC8D.1040700@telus.net> <4BF39D92.7216.B7B83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BF417A0.7000904@telus.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 May 2010 at 8:04, John Robertson wrote: > > >> That won't work for edge connectors - it would disintegrate under >> contact wiping and/or pressure. Particularly if the pad is passing any >> current (power rails). >> > > I don't understand why this would be the case. Copper is copper, > whether it's foil glued on or electroplated. > > Heck, during the 80's, PCBs that were *all* electrodeposition (no > etching) were widely produced. An electroless copper process formed > the base, which was then electroplated to the desired thickness. PCB > vias are still formed this way. > > Thickness isn't an issue--whole parts are sometimes produced by > electrodeposition of copper, far greater than the thickness of the > foil used in PCBs. > > Can you offer a cite or some rationale as to why electrodeposited > copper is inferior to foil? > > Chuck > > > You didn't quote the entire discussion. If you had you would realize I was responding to your point of: ----------(quote)------------ Okay, how about masking and painting the missing contact with some silver- or copper-conductive PCB repair paint, then electroplating a few mils of copper onto that? Finish with a gold flash and it should work like the original. --Chuck -------------(end quote)------------ My point is that painting a coating and then electroplating copper etc. is still going to leave a surface that is unlikely to survive the pressures of being inserted into a card edge connector. Also my experience with card edge repair power bus connectors leads me to believe this would not survive any real current (2 - 5 amps) unless the surface is completely flat - which is very hard to do with the paint up PCB kits. In my 30 some years of board repairs (not mil-spec, but commercial grade - mostly pinball and video game logic boards) I have found that edge connectors that carry power buses are the most difficult to repair for long term survival. That is why I use the PACE style replacement tinned copper sheets - they work. I am sure that other methods exist that works just as well, but this works for me - and my customers are happy with boards that run for years between service. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 20 01:55:21 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 08:55:21 +0200 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20100520085521.203467dc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 19 May 2010 20:42:33 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I am stil lowndering what is so great about replacing something with 10 > transsitors (a cassette recorder) with something with sevreral million > transistos, Well. If you don't have a cassette recorder to connect to your Apple ][ you have to come up with a replacement. If you have a cassette recorder (and a cassette) you have to get the software on that cassette first. So you connect your MP3 or whatever playback device to the cassette recorder to record a tape. But in that case you can connect the whatever playback device to the Apple ][ directely. It is just the classic problem of classic computing: Transfering data from "modern" computers onto media of classic computers. Using an iPad to simulate a cassette recorder is an obvious, short and fast solution - if you have the iPad at had anyway. The only thing that irritates me: It may be funny to do that, but it is nothing special. Nothing to "phone home" about it. Therefore I find all that stir about it irritating. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 20 02:09:01 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 00:09:01 -0700 Subject: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... In-Reply-To: <877073.84585.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <877073.84585.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 9:17 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Lately, I?hooked?a M2442AC (which is basically the M2442A with an extra buffer) to a QT13-type coupler in a?microVAX, in order to save some tape contents to disk and CD-ROM. > > Therefore, I launched the NVRAM-internal diagnostics of the Emulex-controller. The manual of the controller points out the NVRAM-settings for some types of drives, but not for drives made by Fujitsu :( > The diagnostic tests, which can be run out of the diagnostics menu, all fail (except for "BOT/rewind"- and "host memory DMA"-tests) with the same error description: > > ** ERROR ** Blank tape read > I hooked my QT13 up to my M2444AC and installed the QT13 in a BA213 with a KA660 and ran the QT13 diagnostics in system console mode. I had a scratch tape mounted in the M2444AC and all of the diagnostics completed successfully, which took 20-30 minutes. The captured console output is listed below. The QT13 was configured with the following switch settings at power up. SW-1 was toggled from OFF to ON and back to OFF just prior to the "ST 80" console command. SW1-1 OPEN(OFF) away from PCB SW1-2 CLOSED(ON) near to PCB SW1-3 CLOSED(ON) near to PCB SW1-4 CLOSED(ON) near to PCB SW2-1 OFF SW2-2 OFF SW2-3 OFF SW2-4 OFF SW2-5 ON SW2-6 OFF SW2-7 ON SW2-8 OFF KA660-A V4.9, VMB 2.12 1) Dansk 2) Deutsch (Deutschland/?sterreich) 3) Deutsch (Schweiz) 4) English (United Kingdom) 5) English (United States/Canada) 6) Espa?ol 7) Fran?ais (Canada) 8) Fran?ais (France/Belgique) 9) Fran?ais (Suisse) 10) Italiano 11) Nederlands 12) Norsk 13) Portugu?s 14) Suomi 15) Svenska (1..15): 5 Performing normal system tests. 95..94..93..92..91..90..89..88..87..86..85..84..83..82..81..80.. 79..78..77..76..75..74..73..72..71..70..69..68..67..66..65..64.. 63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..55..54..53..52..51..50..49..48.. 47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32.. 31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16.. 15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07..06..05..04..03.. Tests completed. >>>SHOW QBUS Scan of Qbus I/O Space -20001468 (772150) = 0000 RQDX3/KDA50/RRD50/RQC25/KFQSA-DISK -2000146A (772152) = 0B20 -20001940 (774500) = 0000 TQK50/TQK70/TU81E/RV20/KFQSA-TAPE -20001942 (774502) = 8051 -20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR Scan of Qbus Memory Space >>>D/P/W 20001F40 20 >>>D/P/L 20088000 80000000 >>>D/P/L 20088004 80000001 >>>ST 80 ***** ***** EMULEX CORPORATION * * 3545 Harbor Boulevard ***** * ***** P.O. Box 6725 * * Costa Mesa, CA, 92626 ***** ***** (714) 662-5600 E M U L E X QT13/14 Firmware Revision K Copyright 1988 EMULEX CORPORATION All rights reserved ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unit is Offline CSR Address = 174500 oct ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Video Display or Hardcopy Terminal (V/H,def=H) : H MAIN MENU ========= A - All tests R - Retry limit value N - NOVRAM Maintenance T - Test selection Menu S - Display Switch settings Q - Quick test on positioning and erase X - Exit Maintenance mode after resetting switches CTRL/C - Returns you to the previous level CTRL/U - Deletes current input if no entered Select Function (def=A) : S Functions selected by indicated switch settings ----------------------------------------------- Switch 1 Off On _______ | | | [ ] | - 1 --- QT13/14 Tape coupler reset switch, Unreadable Hardware switch | [ *] | - 2 --- Diagnostic mode | [ *] | - 3 --- Host console communications | [ *] | - 4 --- uVAX host | | ------- Functions selected by indicated switch settings ----------------------------------------------- Switch 2 Off On _______ | | | [* ] | - 1 -| | [* ] | - 2 -|- Address = 174500 oct | [* ] | - 3 -| | [* ] | - 4 --- TMSCP | [ *] | - 5 --- Enable 22 bit addressing | [ ] | - 6 --- WDS Trailing edge select, Unreadable Hardware switch | [ ] | - 7 --- WDS Leading edge select, Unreadable Hardware switch | [ ] | - 8 --- Not used, Unreadable Hardware switch | | ------- MAIN MENU ========= A - All tests R - Retry limit value N - NOVRAM Maintenance T - Test selection Menu S - Display Switch settings Q - Quick test on positioning and erase X - Exit Maintenance mode after resetting switches CTRL/C - Returns you to the previous level CTRL/U - Deletes current input if no entered Select Function (def=A) : N Drive type, 0=Start-Stop, 1=Streamer (0-1,def=1 dec) : On the fly commands (Y/N,def=Y) : Enable data busy timeout delay (Y/N,def=Y) : Remote density (Y/N,def=Y) : CDC tape drive (Y/N,def=Y) : Use IDEN line to select remote density (Y/N,def=N) : IDEN line true selects high density (Y/N,def=N) : Adaptive DMA (Y/N,def=Y) : Blank Tape Timeout value, in seconds (1-60,def=5 dec) : Max retry count for tape errors (0-10,def=8 dec) : uSec Delay between DMA bursts (2/4,def=4) : Enable write data prefill (Y/N,def=N) : Adaptive DMA threshold (1-7,def=4 dec) : Tape Drive Speed thousands of bytes/second (0-65535,def=200 dec) : Support 800 BPI Density (Y/N,def=N) : Support 1600 BPI Density (Y/N,def=Y) : Support 6250 BPI Density (Y/N,def=Y) : Modify ? (Y/N,def=N) : MAIN MENU ========= A - All tests R - Retry limit value N - NOVRAM Maintenance T - Test selection Menu S - Display Switch settings Q - Quick test on positioning and erase X - Exit Maintenance mode after resetting switches CTRL/C - Returns you to the previous level CTRL/U - Deletes current input if no entered Select Function (def=A) : A Ensure tape loaded and at BOT Press to continue... * WARNING *, Use scratch tape only, data on tape will be lost Are you sure ? (Y/N,def=N) : Y Enter number of loops to execute (0-255,def=1 dec) : 1 Retry limit of 10 --> Start of pass 1 BOT/Rewind test Write/Read test File mark test Space forward/reverse test Positioning test Erase test Host memory DMA test --> End of pass 1 Executing pass 1 Test Summary: Total # of errors = 0 (0 Hard, 0 Soft, 0 Device, 0 DMA) From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 20 07:37:06 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 13:37:06 +0100 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <20100520085521.203467dc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> <20100520085521.203467dc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Using an iPad to simulate a cassette recorder is an obvious, short and > fast solution - if you have the iPad at had anyway. The only thing that > irritates me: It may be funny to do that, but it is nothing special. > Nothing to "phone home" about it. Therefore I find all that stir about > it irritating. I thought I had already tried to explain what was (in my view, as - among other things - a computer journalist) regarded as special and interesting about that piece. The whole point was that it was the latest, still-scarce piece of Apple kit and the oldest that most people who regard themselves as "knowing about old computers" would regard as the first Apple. This is not a hard point to grasp, surely? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 20 08:41:26 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 09:41:26 -0400 Subject: The Declassified History of NSA Computers In-Reply-To: <4BF4CEEB.8010706@brouhaha.com> References: <4BF4CEEB.8010706@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > That may have been true at one time, but certainly is not now. A change for the better, then. Originally FOUO was intended to skate around the normal classification system, so certain documents did not have to go through mandatory declassification review. -- Will From ray at arachelian.com Thu May 20 13:07:03 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:07:03 -0400 Subject: ? testing Apple ProFile In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF57A47.10309@arachelian.com> On 05/02/2010 08:29 AM, K?ser Martin wrote: > > The ProFile (5 MB) spent the last years in storage. > What should i do before starting the self test? > > The ProFile was used on either a LISA or an > Apple III or an Apple II. > > I'd hate to test it on, say, a LISA and accidentally > wipe out Apple II or III data. Is there a safe way > to find out about the content? > > Martin K?ser > > I'd say, just turn it on but don't connect it to a machine. It'll blink for the first 3-5 minutes while it goes through its self test. If the READY light turns on and stays on after 5 minutes, all is good. The Lisa Boot ROM will only try to read the first block and if the tags say AA,AA, will start booting off it. It won't harm any data. So if it boots on a Lisa, you know it's for a Lisa. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 20 12:35:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 18:35:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at May 19, 10 08:49:52 pm Message-ID: > > So, as a thought experiment at this point in time, what would you wish > > to bring along? What space would you want or need to properly display > > it? And how much space would you need to transport it? [...] > As foir what machines? Well, maybe a selection of early HP desktop > calculators. Maybe a PERQ or 2. I susepct others will have PDPs and all Possible the HP9830 with some early HPIB peripherals. Or of course a Philips P800 machine. The P850 would take some getting out (it's a rack cabinet with its paper tape punch and reader), but the P851 or P854 are a lot more moveabl. > the common micros... But it's alla cademic, alas. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 20 12:39:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 18:39:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <01bb01caf796$134aba60$39e02f20$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 19, 10 09:58:45 pm Message-ID: > Yes, this drive did have a sticky bumper. I resolved it by putting a very > thin sliver of tape over the sticky bit. I did not loosen any bolts, but I wonder if that bumper is no the wrong size, and that is what's causing the problems.Maybe the heads have to be able to find something o nthe disk for hte drive to not find an error. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 20 13:00:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:00:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: silly faults / was Re: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <4BF478CA.112B742@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 19, 10 04:48:26 pm Message-ID: > A while ago I was working on a calculator which intermittently would not What was the calculator? Some claim that calculators are off-topic here. I am not so sure. I can't think of any reasonable definition of (automatic digital) computer that would exclude user-programmable calculators [1]. And the non-programamble ones, while not strictly computers, are clearly related devices. [1] Also some manufacturers (HP being one) called machines 'calculators' for marketing reasons, mostly to get past purchasing departments who 'knew' that a computer was a machine from IBM that lived in an air conditioned room and needed a maintenance contract. I defy anyone to come up with a sensible defintion of personal computer that excludes the hP9830 (aka Model 30 calculator). > respond to several keys (failure seemed to correlate with low ambient > temperature). 5V levels were OK, some involved diagnosis - including > construction of extension connectors - traced it to an IC involved in the > matrix scanning and I replaced the IC. > > The next time the temperature was low the problem showed up again. I had > measured the 5V level on the logic board with the power supply. The 'faulty' IC > was on a sub-board, the problem turned out to be a connector feeding the 5V > supply between the two boards: the 5V supply on the sub-board was marginal and > the 'faulty' IC had merely been the first to fail. Argh!. I've saind many times 'check the PSU first', but it's easy to forget, or to assume it's OK when the fault is actually a poor connection somewhere. I've had examples of both... In my PDP11/45, I had a curious fault that it would have all sorts of odd problems (memory erors, Unibus grants mising, tc) after running for aobut half an hour. I spent a long time going through the logic before I botheresd to check the 5V lines _at the backplane_. One was sitting at about 4.4V. ... And my PERQ3a had strange hard disk problems. It turend out there's an in-line fuseholder (like the ones used in some older cars) in the 12V feed to the winchester disk. The wires were held in by little grubscrews and one was loose. Tightneing it cured the problem. > > I'm still annoyed I messed around with replacing an IC in an otherwise-original > machine, when I all needed to do was clean a contact, esp. when I know better. You mean you didn't put the origiunal IC back in? When I was restoring my HP9820, I found the main reason that the processor wasn't working was that there were problems with the M (memory address) register. This is a 6 bit bit-serial machine, and bits are shifted into the registers from the most significant end. Anyway, bits 15..12 of the M register were changing, the rest were stuck at 0. The register is made of 4 4-bit TTL shift registers (7495 IIRC), and after managing to obtain some, I changed the one for bits 11..8. This had no effect on the fualt. Not only did the processor still not work, but also the M register behaviour was unchanged. I looked more carefully at the bits that were changing and realised the timing was all wrong. The seiral input to the 11..8 chip was always low on the active edge of the clock. So I replaced the top bits register using the one I'd desoldered from 11..8 and the machine sprang to life. Yes I did reulse that old bnut good chip. 7495s are too rare to waste! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 20 13:06:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:06:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF47F0F.7E54CC9A@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 19, 10 05:15:12 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I am stil lowndering what is so great about replacing something with 10 > > transsitors (a cassette recorder) with something with sevreral million > > transistos, > > Those several million transistors may actually use fewer atoms than the 10 > transistors in the cassette player when one includes packaging. Maybe, maybe not. > > I like simplicity too, but there are many ways of assessing which > 'fewer' is better. True enough. My experience suggests thatm for example, the IC version of a circuit is likely to be more relaible than the discrete component version, but that a more complex IC based system may well be less reliable than the simpler discrete comonent circuit. When it comes to repairing it, though. I'd much rather have the discrete component version. I still claim the cassette recorder is simpler than the iPod/iPAd, for the following reason. I can take a schematic of my discrete-transistor cassatte recorder nad pretty much understand the purpose of every component in it. I am not sure I could calculate all the values from scratch (some of them would depend on the characteristics of the tape and heads), but I can understand why they're there. I think that even if I could get a tranasitor-level schemaitc of an iPod, it would be way beyond me to understnad it (let alonde understanding the software), anf I think it would be beyond any of us. > > I know which I'd rather have to keep running in 40 years > > time (and yes, I do have a cassette recorder over that age, all it's ever > > needed are new belts). > > I think the concept is that in 40 years the choice will be the 70-year old > cassette player vs. whatever the future playback technology is, not the > then-40-year-old now-current playback technology. That rather depends one what the data is stored on ... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 20 13:11:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:11:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at May 20, 10 01:37:06 pm Message-ID: > > The whole point was that it was the latest, still-scarce piece of > Apple kit and the oldest that most people who regard themselves as > "knowing about old computers" would regard as the first Apple. I am wondeirng who can think an 'Apple //e' -- an Apple _TWO_ e is the first of anything... > > This is not a hard point to grasp, surely? No it's not, but it doesn;t make it intereting. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 20 13:36:21 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:36:21 +0100 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> The whole point was that it was the latest, still-scarce piece of >> Apple kit and the oldest that most people who regard themselves as >> "knowing about old computers" would regard as the first Apple. > > I am wondeirng who can think an 'Apple //e' -- an Apple _TWO_ e is the > first of anything... Simply compare how many people saw or used or at least heard of an Apple II compared with how many ever saw an Apple 1. Apple 1s are like hen's teeth. Of the small number of people compared to all Apple users or owners or people vaguely interested in Apple kit, 99.lots of nines percent will never have seen an Apple 1. >> This is not a hard point to grasp, surely? > > No it's not, but it doesn;t make it intereting. Apple now has something ITRO 5-10% of the PC market. Sure, once it was 15%+ but the PC market back then was tiny compared to now. These days, it sells hundreds of millions of machines. There are many many more Apple owners and users around today than at any time in the past. (On the same note, by any measure, Mac OS X is the most-successful UNIX there has ever been. The number of users basically equals the number of installations, which again is many hundreds of millions - more than all other forms of Unix ever put together, including all the open source ones, even if you count users on terminals as opposed to host systems.) So that is a /lot/ of people to be curious about linking a 2010 Apple to a 1970 Apple. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 20 13:43:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:43:19 -0400 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF582C7.4080208@neurotica.com> On 5/20/10 2:36 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > (On the same note, by any measure, Mac OS X is the most-successful > UNIX there has ever been. The number of users basically equals the > number of installations, which again is many hundreds of millions - > more than all other forms of Unix ever put together, including all the > open source ones, even if you count users on terminals as opposed to > host systems.) Wow, this is an interesting claim. Got any data to back that up? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 20 13:53:43 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 19:53:43 +0100 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF582C7.4080208@neurotica.com> References: <4BF582C7.4080208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/20/10 2:36 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> (On the same note, by any measure, Mac OS X is the most-successful >> UNIX there has ever been. The number of users basically equals the >> number of installations, which again is many hundreds of millions - >> more than all other forms of Unix ever put together, including all the >> open source ones, even if you count users on terminals as opposed to >> host systems.) > > ?Wow, this is an interesting claim. ?Got any data to back that up? [Blinks] It's been fairly widely discussed. I have seen an effort at totting up the numbers but not for some time. SCO and Solaris both claim to have been the biggest seller in terms of licenses, but that's still only in the millions at best, and some of the more optimistic claims of desktop Linux are around 12 million. Maybe 20-30 million if you count all distros, the BSDs etc. But every iPhone and iPod Touch runs OS X. Apple have been selling many tens of millions of these a year for 3 or so years, plus a decade of sales of Mac OS X machines, which I believe are at something like one third of the USA notebook computer market for systems over $600. Apple is doing very, very well, and all its computers since about 2001 have run OS X in some form, plus all its phones and all the high-end iPods. That's a /lot/ of boxes. And every one is a certified Open Group UNIX?? machine. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu May 20 14:12:30 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:12:30 -0400 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF5899E.8080403@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Yes, this drive did have a sticky bumper. I resolved it by putting a very >> thin sliver of tape over the sticky bit. I did not loosen any bolts, but >> > > I wonder if that bumper is no the wrong size, and that is what's causing > the problems.Maybe the heads have to be able to find something o nthe > disk for hte drive to not find an error. > > -tony > > > I've outright removed the bumper with no ill effect. Reason for that is unsticking it once didn't work as it would stick again. Only solution was remove the offending material. Result was a reliable working drive that when powered off emitted a noticeable "clunk". That has had no impact on reliability, least not for the last 10 years. I'd suspect board level death or possible cable/connector issues between boards. I've found in the dead boards, toasted resistors in the motor drive and head control and random failures around the local CPU (servo control). Drives that are received non functional may have been fiddled by those unknowing and have incurred further damage. I've found that I have RD53s with serviceable HDAs (after fixing the stick)" and bad boards and some where the HDAs had other issues Grafting good HDAs to the working boards was the solution. Still have a stack of RD53s I haven't looked at yet beyond verifying they have sticky bumper as I haven't needed them. All told I run 5 of them and have a more for spares other than they run hot and get the sticky bumper they are decently reliable if well cooled. The bad board RD53s always seemed to come from BA23/123 or microVAX2000 boxes with failed fans. My assumption is the fan failed and the drive was the first to signal that by failing electronically. This was also common with the hot running RD32 (ST250) if cooling was poor. Oddly enough this was seen most commonly inside DEC (ex-digit, the Mill) where small systems like that would live unofficially under desks and such without "service". Most migrated out of DEC as scrap or as employee purchase and would die at home where I'd later acquire them as part of a system rescue. The best drive of the lot was the RD52 (Quantum D540) 31mb. I watched as one was flung into a waste pail as "too small). I recovered it as a possible set of boards and found it was still fully functional with no new bad sectors. I have about 15 of them in various PDP11 and uVAX systems and the oldest is going on 21years old and none have ever failed. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 20 14:26:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:26:02 -0400 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4BF582C7.4080208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BF58CCA.2060109@neurotica.com> On 5/20/10 2:53 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >>> (On the same note, by any measure, Mac OS X is the most-successful >>> UNIX there has ever been. The number of users basically equals the >>> number of installations, which again is many hundreds of millions - >>> more than all other forms of Unix ever put together, including all the >>> open source ones, even if you count users on terminals as opposed to >>> host systems.) >> >> Wow, this is an interesting claim. Got any data to back that up? > > [Blinks] It's been fairly widely discussed. I have seen an effort at > totting up the numbers but not for some time. > > SCO and Solaris both claim to have been the biggest seller in terms of > licenses, but that's still only in the millions at best, and some of > the more optimistic claims of desktop Linux are around 12 million. > Maybe 20-30 million if you count all distros, the BSDs etc. > > But every iPhone and iPod Touch runs OS X. Apple have been selling > many tens of millions of these a year for 3 or so years, plus a decade > of sales of Mac OS X machines, which I believe are at something like > one third of the USA notebook computer market for systems over $600. Ok, with iPhones I might believe it. But more to the point, when I replied to your post, I was distracted and misread it as your having asserted that OS X has outsold other Unices *put together*, which I now see is NOT at all what you said. > Apple is doing very, very well, and all its computers since about 2001 > have run OS X in some form, plus all its phones and all the high-end > iPods. That's a /lot/ of boxes. > > And every one is a certified Open Group UNIX?? machine. Yes, absolutely. -Dave (who built an iPhone up from parts from broken ones just yesterday) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 20 14:29:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 12:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <20100520085521.203467dc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> <20100520085521.203467dc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20100520122058.N88645@shell.lmi.net> D'ya really want to get written up in WIRED? With dayglo green text on a dayglo yellow background? (or have they learned anything?) Take an APPLE (MUST be APPLE), install an IPad in the case to do nothing but interface a USB keyboard to it. Install another iPad in the case, to do nothing but interface to a modern TV set. Install another iPad in the case, to do nothing but emulate a disk drive. Install another iPad in the case, to do nothing but emulate a game paddle. Show a Wired Apple fan-boy an entire room full of current Apple technology, being used to do nothing but act as an I/O processor for an early WELL KNOWN (therefore not first) Apple product. If that isn't enough, port OS/2 to it, written in Valtrep, and write an email protocol. (Sorry, Dan, I couldn't resist) From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 20 14:34:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:34:42 -0400 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <20100520122058.N88645@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> <20100520085521.203467dc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100520122058.N88645@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BF58ED2.5030901@neurotica.com> On 5/20/10 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > D'ya really want to get written up in WIRED? > With dayglo green text on a dayglo yellow background? (or have they > learned anything?) > > Take an APPLE (MUST be APPLE), install an IPad in the case to do nothing > but interface a USB keyboard to it. > Install another iPad in the case, to do nothing but interface to a modern > TV set. > Install another iPad in the case, to do nothing but emulate a disk drive. > Install another iPad in the case, to do nothing but emulate a game paddle. > Show a Wired Apple fan-boy an entire room full of current Apple > technology, being used to do nothing but act as an I/O processor for an > early WELL KNOWN (therefore not first) Apple product. > > > If that isn't enough, port OS/2 to it, written in Valtrep, and write an > email protocol. (Sorry, Dan, I couldn't resist) You're a mean, bad man. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 20 14:40:45 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 12:40:45 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <20100520122058.N88645@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BF32163.1070304@brouhaha.com> <20100520085521.203467dc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20100520122058.N88645@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2010 12:29 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe > > D'ya really want to get written up in WIRED? > With dayglo green text on a dayglo yellow background? (or have they > learned anything?) > I guess Wired isn't intended for people like me, whose "mature" eyes find it hard to read the tiny, neon-colored fonts on backgrounds not more than a step or two away on the color wheel. I often wonder if there's anyone - other than Wired's "art" department - that truly appreciates the format.... -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 20 15:15:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 13:15:03 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4BF535D7.20470.197E032@cclist.sydex.com> Personally, I'd be a lot more impressed if someone used an Edison wax cylinder recording to load data into an Apple IIe. But I impress easily... --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu May 20 15:57:00 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 13:57:00 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe References: , , <4BF535D7.20470.197E032@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BF5A21C.A7FECCA6@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Personally, I'd be a lot more impressed if someone used an Edison wax > cylinder recording to load data into an Apple IIe. > > But I impress easily... Ya know, I have the equipment to do that, except the piezo transducer that drives the needle in the wax recorder is cracked. From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu May 20 16:28:24 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:28:24 -0400 Subject: Usenet's home shuts down today =?windows-1252?Q?=95_The_Regi?= =?windows-1252?Q?ster?= Message-ID: <4BF5A978.3050600@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/20/usenet_duke_server/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 20 16:36:39 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: silly faults / was Re: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100520143252.T92342@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 20 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Also some manufacturers (HP being one) called machines 'calculators' > for marketing reasons, mostly to get past purchasing departments who > 'knew' that a computer was a machine from IBM that lived in an air > conditioned room and needed a maintenance contract. And therefore, for a while, you could purchase "Audio-Visual Equipment" directly from Bell and Howell. Aside from being black, having a different power cord, and a latch on the case lid, it sure seemed similar to an Apple ][. > I defy anyone to come > up with a sensible defintion of personal computer that excludes the > hP9830 (aka Model 30 calculator). Well, if you are going to stipulate "sensible", then none of the board of education definitions would apply. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 20 16:38:37 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:38:37 -0400 Subject: Usenet's home shuts down today =?windows-1252?Q?=95_The_?= =?windows-1252?Q?Register?= In-Reply-To: <4BF5A978.3050600@sbcglobal.net> References: <4BF5A978.3050600@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4BF5ABDD.8070402@atarimuseum.com> Wow... well I hope somebody is going down their to save and salvage everything that is left and preserve any original remnants. Curt Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/20/usenet_duke_server/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 20 16:37:15 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 22:37:15 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? References: Message-ID: <006601caf866$30fb5210$8dfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > > > > > Didn't know about it?! > > > > It has been mentioned here before a few months back, but it was probably > > part of a thread where the topic drifted. > > >From what I remember, it was mentioned in passing. There was no clear > announcemnt of times/dates, no requests for people to bring along > machines and/or give talks/demonstrations/whatever. > > Where was it officially announced? Where would I have volunteered to drag > along one of my more interesting machines? > > -tony No idea where it was officially announced, but it first hit this mailing list on 2nd Feb 2010... http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-February/282177.html Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 20 16:47:28 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 22:47:28 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? References: Message-ID: <006801caf866$378dc130$8dfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > > > > > Didn't know about it?! > > > > It has been mentioned here before a few months back, but it was probably > > part of a thread where the topic drifted. > > >From what I remember, it was mentioned in passing. There was no clear > announcemnt of times/dates, no requests for people to bring along > machines and/or give talks/demonstrations/whatever. > > Where was it officially announced? Where would I have volunteered to drag > along one of my more interesting machines? > > -tony Just done a little digging (up to my neck in CPU's!!) and found this on TNMOC's official site: http://www.tnmoc.org/vcf-gb.aspx It doesn't say much. There is a little more in this news article: http://tnmoc.org/36/section.aspx/135 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu May 20 17:27:39 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:27:39 -0500 Subject: =?Windows-1252?Q?RE:_Usenet?= =?Windows-1252?Q?'s_home_sh?= =?Windows-1252?Q?uts_down_t?= =?Windows-1252?Q?oday_=95_The?= =?Windows-1252?Q?_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4BF5ABDD.8070402@atarimuseum.com> References: <4BF5A978.3050600@sbcglobal.net>,<4BF5ABDD.8070402@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:38:37 -0400 > From: curt at atarimuseum.com > To: > Subject: Re: Usenet's home shuts down today ? The Register > > Wow... well I hope somebody is going down their to save and salvage > everything that is left and preserve any original remnants. > > > > Curt > > > > Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/20/usenet_duke_server/ Before the internet was available to us normal folks, (80s and before) we got all our code from the uuunet guys in Falls Church, VA. They used to sell tapes of the usenet archives. I have not looked much, but I suspect its all still out there. I thought I also remember somebody else later bought the archive and had it for sale. The stuff I remember buying was comp.graphics, comp.c and so on. Goodies in there were raytracers like POV Ray, Rayshade. I also remember Austin Code Works was a good vendor selling source distributions from usenet. I got TeX from them, lexx, yacc PCP-IP. It was expensive on a hobby budget, but the only way unless you knew somebody at the university that had a connection. Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu May 20 17:36:31 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:36:31 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Usenet=27s_home_shuts_down_today_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4BF5A978.3050600@sbcglobal.net> <4BF5ABDD.8070402@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > >> Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 17:38:37 -0400 >> From: curt at atarimuseum.com >> To: >> Subject: Re: Usenet's home shuts down today ? The Register >> >> Wow... well I hope somebody is going down their to save and salvage >> everything that is left and preserve any original remnants. >> >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/20/usenet_duke_server/ > > Before the internet was available to us normal folks, (80s and before) we got all > our code from the uuunet guys in Falls Church, VA. ?They used to sell > tapes of the usenet archives. > > > > I have not looked much, but I suspect its all still out there. ?I > thought I also remember somebody else later bought the archive and had > it for sale. ?The stuff I remember buying was comp.graphics, comp.c and > so on. ?Goodies in there were raytracers like POV Ray, Rayshade. > > > > I also remember Austin Code Works was a good vendor selling source > distributions from usenet. ?I got TeX from them, lexx, yacc PCP-IP. > > > > It was expensive on a hobby budget, but the only way unless you knew > somebody at the university that had a connection. > > > > Randy No kidding. When I lived in Florida, I was lucky enough to be able to get news via Nova University. When I was in Southern CA, I used some other provider to get netnews. I still get a thrill if I go into Google's news interface and search for "md386". Up pops a few postings and the UUCP maps for my home machine (which was running Xenix at the time and Coherent at another point). Mark From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 20 17:38:40 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 15:38:40 -0700 Subject: silly faults / was Re: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <20100520143252.T92342@shell.lmi.net> References: ,<20100520143252.T92342@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi According to some sources, this type of thinking is what killed the Canon Cat. One line of thinking was that the Canon computer division learned that it was a computer and not just a fancy electronic typewriter. There is another line that it was related to Canons work with the Next project. It was stated that the Cats didn't sell but in fact they were back ordered. There was also a more notebook like one in the design stages when shut down. One often wonders how the netbook and similar devices might have evolved had the Cat had more influence. Dwight > Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 14:36:39 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: silly faults / was Re: RD53 Restoration > > On Thu, 20 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] Also some manufacturers (HP being one) called machines 'calculators' > > for marketing reasons, mostly to get past purchasing departments who > > 'knew' that a computer was a machine from IBM that lived in an air > > conditioned room and needed a maintenance contract. > > And therefore, for a while, you could purchase "Audio-Visual Equipment" > directly from Bell and Howell. Aside from being black, having a different > power cord, and a latch on the case lid, it sure seemed similar to an > Apple ][. > > > I defy anyone to come > > up with a sensible defintion of personal computer that excludes the > > hP9830 (aka Model 30 calculator). > > Well, if you are going to stipulate "sensible", then none of the board of > education definitions would apply. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 20 17:47:47 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 16:47:47 -0600 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF5A21C.A7FECCA6@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , <4BF535D7.20470.197E032@cclist.sydex.com> <4BF5A21C.A7FECCA6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4BF5BC13.6050800@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ya know, I have the equipment to do that, except the piezo transducer that > drives the needle in the wax recorder is cracked. Must have been using EAR wax again! :) From pinball at telus.net Thu May 20 15:45:32 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 20 May 2010 13:45:32 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF59F6C.6070107@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> I am stil lowndering what is so great about replacing something with 10 >>> transsitors (a cassette recorder) with something with sevreral million >>> transistos, >>> >> Those several million transistors may actually use fewer atoms than the 10 >> transistors in the cassette player when one includes packaging. >> > > Oh, are we running out of atoms now that we need to conserve them? It's so hard to keep up with these things... John :-#)# From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri May 21 02:13:37 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 08:13:37 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <006801caf866$378dc130$8dfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <006801caf866$378dc130$8dfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> Hi After studying the publicity it would appear that the VCF-UK is simply another in a series of events organized by Bletchley Park themselves. I suspect that a lot of what you might see is already there. Note that the show is sub-titled "A history of computing in the UK" The only non-uk reference appears to be to Amiga. Likewise the speaker list is mainly UK biased. So if you are a collector of US made equipment then there might not be that much to interest you. On the other hand fans of Acorn, Sinclair, ICL and the like may well have a lot to see. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Burton Sent: 20 May 2010 22:47 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > > > > > Didn't know about it?! > > > > It has been mentioned here before a few months back, but it was probably > > part of a thread where the topic drifted. > > >From what I remember, it was mentioned in passing. There was no clear > announcemnt of times/dates, no requests for people to bring along > machines and/or give talks/demonstrations/whatever. > > Where was it officially announced? Where would I have volunteered to drag > along one of my more interesting machines? > > -tony Just done a little digging (up to my neck in CPU's!!) and found this on TNMOC's official site: http://www.tnmoc.org/vcf-gb.aspx It doesn't say much. There is a little more in this news article: http://tnmoc.org/36/section.aspx/135 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 21 12:34:38 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:34:38 -0600 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF59F6C.6070107@telus.net> References: <4BF59F6C.6070107@telus.net> Message-ID: <4BF6C42E.4010509@jetnet.ab.ca> John Robertson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I am stil lowndering what is so great about replacing something with 10 >>>> transsitors (a cassette recorder) with something with sevreral million >>>> transistos, >>> Those several million transistors may actually use fewer atoms than >>> the 10 >>> transistors in the cassette player when one includes packaging. >> > Oh, are we running out of atoms now that we need to conserve them? It's > so hard to keep up with these things... Well get back to tubes ... No atoms used ... pure 99.9% vacum. > John :-#)# Ben. What is more waste full is the throw away era we live in. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 21 12:37:35 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 13:37:35 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle Message-ID: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". http://www.google.com/ Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 21 12:42:34 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:42:34 -0600 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a > playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". > > http://www.google.com/ > > Peace... Sridhar > Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri May 21 12:49:58 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:49:58 -0500 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 12:37 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a > playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". > > http://www.google.com/ Very cool. But hard to control. brian From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 21 12:50:04 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 13:50:04 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BF6C7CC.2040104@gmail.com> Ben wrote: >> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a >> playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". >> >> http://www.google.com/ > > Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. My 1.6GHz one isn't too slow. Peace... Sridhar From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri May 21 12:50:27 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 19:50:27 +0200 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah, quite fun to play! :) > > In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a > playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". > > http://www.google.com/ > > Peace... Sridhar > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 21 12:51:24 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 13:51:24 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BF6C81C.9070301@neurotica.com> On 5/21/10 1:42 PM, Ben wrote: >> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a >> playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". >> >> http://www.google.com/ > > Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. Hmm, I just tried it on a 400MHz computer, works fine. I'm not running Windows. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 21 13:05:29 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:05:29 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C7CC.2040104@gmail.com> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BF6C7CC.2040104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BF6CB69.3040608@comcast.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ben wrote: >>> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a >>> playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". >>> >>> http://www.google.com/ >> >> Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. > > My 1.6GHz one isn't too slow. > rather play the original with the Speedup Eprom installed :) you can also get the 60in1 multi gameboard that includes the speedup option. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From shumaker at att.net Fri May 21 13:06:37 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:06:37 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BF6CBAD.1010100@att.net> tried it. without the joystick mashed against the stops, there seems something missing...... Ben wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a >> playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". >> >> http://www.google.com/ >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> > > Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. > > From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 21 13:14:36 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:14:36 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com>, Message-ID: If you haven't seen it yet, click the "insert coin" twice for two-player with ms. pacman, use WASD keys for 2nd player. > Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 19:50:27 +0200 > Subject: Re: Today's Google Doodle > From: quapla at xs4all.nl > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Yeah, quite fun to play! :) > > > > > > In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a > > playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". > > > > http://www.google.com/ > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > _________________________________________________________________ 30 days of prizes to be won with Hotmail. Enter Here. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729709 From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 21 13:18:25 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C7CC.2040104@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "May 21, 10 01:50:04 pm" Message-ID: <201005211818.o4LIIPbO016082@floodgap.com> > > > In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a > > > playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". > > > > > > http://www.google.com/ > > > > Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. > > My 1.6GHz one isn't too slow. My quad 2.5GHz is too slow. I think a great deal is dependent on one's browser, too. I'm sure it runs at a ripping speed on anything Chrome-derived. Mozilla, not so much, though Firefox does handle it considerably better than Camino. It won't run in Classilla, so therefore it sucks. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Angels we have heard on High/Tell us to go out and Buy. -- Tom Lehrer ------ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 21 13:24:27 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:24:27 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C81C.9070301@neurotica.com> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BF6C81C.9070301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BF6CFDB.7040405@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a >>> playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". >>> >>> http://www.google.com/ >> >> Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. > > Hmm, I just tried it on a 400MHz computer, works fine. > > I'm not running Windows. ;) My 1.6GHz processor is fast enough and I AM running Windows. Peace... Sridhar From g at kurico.com Fri May 21 13:40:03 2010 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 13:40:03 -0500 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C7CC.2040104@gmail.com> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BF6C7CC.2040104@gmail.com> Message-ID: On May 21, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ben wrote: >>> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a >>> playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". >>> >>> http://www.google.com/ >> >> Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. > > My 1.6GHz one isn't too slow. > > Peace... Sridhar Works just fine on an iPhone 3gs and ipad ;) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 21 13:41:00 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:41:00 -0600 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C81C.9070301@neurotica.com> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BF6C81C.9070301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BF6D3BC.1060607@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Hmm, I just tried it on a 400MHz computer, works fine. > > I'm not running Windows. ;) > > -Dave > And I can't play it again cause I have no idea where insert the 25 cents. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 21 13:44:35 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 11:44:35 -0700 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6CBAD.1010100@att.net> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BF6CBAD.1010100@att.net> Message-ID: And without the beer rings on the glass tabletop, you lose the non-rectilinear enhancements.... -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker > Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 11:07 AM > To: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Today's Google Doodle > > tried it. without the joystick mashed against the stops, there seems > something missing...... > > Ben wrote: > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> > >> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a > >> playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". > >> > >> http://www.google.com/ > >> > >> Peace... Sridhar > >> > > > > Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. > > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 21 13:59:37 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:59:37 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <201005211818.o4LIIPbO016082@floodgap.com> References: <201005211818.o4LIIPbO016082@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4BF6D819.8030401@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a >>>> playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". >>>> >>>> http://www.google.com/ >>> >>> Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. >> >> My 1.6GHz one isn't too slow. > > My quad 2.5GHz is too slow. > > I think a great deal is dependent on one's browser, too. I'm sure it runs > at a ripping speed on anything Chrome-derived. Mozilla, not so much, though > Firefox does handle it considerably better than Camino. I've been running it in Seamonkey without any problems. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 21 11:57:27 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:57:27 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle Message-ID: <4BF6BB77.2050007@gmail.com> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". http://www.google.com/ Peace... Sridhar From root at parse.com Fri May 21 13:18:28 2010 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Straight 8 for sale Message-ID: <201005211818.o4LIISFA099783@amd64.ott.parse.com> I have (ironically) acquired a straight 8; much as I would like to keep it and restore it, I no longer have the equipment or spares to do so. The website "www.pdp12.org" contains the pictures and inventory. I will be accepting offers until the end of Friday, June 11th, 2010 (23:59 EDT). All pieces will go as one lot. Winner, if any, will be notified by the next Monday. This unit is partially disassembled (and will be shipped that way; boxed), but it looks like most of the parts are there. I have been told that it is missing cards; I have posted a best-efforts card inventory which should allow you to make a determination on how many (if any) cards are missing. I am available to answer any questions you may have. Shipping is to be arranged by you; location is Kanata, ON/Canada. I will have the two cabinets wrapped and protected with styrofoam, and all other components will be boxed and ready for the shipper to put in a palette and plastic wrap (there will only be three or so boxes, so this will take almost no time). CTS is recommended (www.moveit.com). Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 21 14:15:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF59F6C.6070107@telus.net> References: <4BF59F6C.6070107@telus.net> Message-ID: <20100521121359.A36362@shell.lmi.net> > >> Those several million transistors may actually use fewer atoms than the 10 > >> transistors in the cassette player when one includes packaging. On Thu, 20 May 2010, John Robertson wrote: > Oh, are we running out of atoms now that we need to conserve them? It's > so hard to keep up with these things... We seem to be doing OK on atoms, but how is our supply of computrons? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 21 14:22:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 15:22:50 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6CFDB.7040405@gmail.com> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BF6C81C.9070301@neurotica.com> <4BF6CFDB.7040405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BF6DD8A.1030909@neurotica.com> On 5/21/10 2:24 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> In honor of the 30th birthday of Pac Man, today's Google Doodle is a >>>> playable Pac Man game in the shape of the word "Google". >>>> >>>> http://www.google.com/ >>> >>> Tried it. My 1.8 GHZ computer is TOO slow. >> >> Hmm, I just tried it on a 400MHz computer, works fine. >> >> I'm not running Windows. ;) > > My 1.6GHz processor is fast enough and I AM running Windows. Interesting! Virus load, perhaps? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Fri May 21 14:19:37 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 20:19:37 +0100 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6D3BC.1060607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6721CD154BE740BBABE157A83C8D5BD6@ANTONIOPC> > And I can't play it again cause I have no idea where > insert the 25 cents. Look where "I'm feeling lucky" usually sits :-) From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri May 21 14:29:08 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 15:29:08 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6C81C.9070301@neurotica.com> References: <4BF6C4DF.3090806@gmail.com> <4BF6C60A.5060906@jetnet.ab.ca>,<4BF6C81C.9070301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: If you haven't seen it yet, click the "insert coin" twice for two-player with ms. pacman, use WASD keys for 2nd player. _________________________________________________________________ Win a $10,000 shopping spree from Hotmail! Enter now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9729711 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 21 14:31:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 20:31:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF6C42E.4010509@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at May 21, 10 11:34:38 am Message-ID: > > Oh, are we running out of atoms now that we need to conserve them? It's > > so hard to keep up with these things... > > Well get back to tubes ... No atoms used ... pure 99.9% vacum. Unfortunately you need atoms to make an envelope to cotnain that vacuum. You also need atoms to make the various electrodes inside that envelope. Are electrons also in short supply? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 21 14:29:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 20:29:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> from "RodSmallwood" at May 21, 10 08:13:37 am Message-ID: > > > > Hi > > After studying the publicity it would appear that the VCF-UK is simply > another in a series of events organized by Bletchley Park themselves. I > suspect that a lot of what you might see is already there. Note that the > show is sub-titled "A history of computing in the UK" The only non-uk > reference appears to be to Amiga. Likewise the speaker list is mainly UK > biased. Having looked at the appropriate web pages, I somewhat agree with you. I have serious reservations about the organisation of this event. I hadn't realised it was actually organised by Bletchley Park -- having discovered this, there is _no way_ I would waste my time attending. I hope this desn't sound like sour grapes. It appears that they have no clue about the sort of things that private collectors get up to, and the sort of people who they really should be catering for. It appears to be public show. Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of us sharing our knowledge and interest with everyone, but equally, having to explain for the 10th time in an many minutes that, no, this machine does not run Windows gets boring fast. I think back to the very successful HPCC conference in 2007. Although members of the public were welcome to atttend (I think you had to book in advance), it was a very techncial event, If you hadn't a clue about A-level (high school) mathematics, or simple electronics, or things like that you would not have got anything out of it. And that's how I feel about a VCF-type event. It should be a place for fellow enthuiasts to talk about and demonstrate the machines we all love. If others are interested, fine. But it should be pitched at a level that assumes everyone will at least know what machine code is, what a flip-flop is, etc. Some things struck me instantly. The default space for a private collector is 1m*2m. That is nowehre near large enough. I could fill that area with a collection of _handheld_ computers, and that's a minor part of my collection. I think just about any reasonable classic micro set up (keyboard, storage, monitor possibly a printer) with a sheet of text (in a large font) saying what it is and why it's interesting would occupy more than that space. And as for a minicomputer, well... There is no mention of power. Will people be able to power up their private collections? If so, how much power per 'stand'. Note that 13A BS1363 sockets doesn't tell you anything. It may well be a total of 30A or less for the entire room. Which is again nowhere near enough. And what about safety? There is a slight risk of electrical failure, metal cases becoming live, etc./ What is going to be done about that? Or do the organisers (as I suspect) regard classic computers as pieces of art, not to be powered up? I found some curious statements for the flea market (or whatever you want to call it). 'No PCs' What is a PC? Do they really believe that the IBM5150 is not a significant vintage machine? And then 'No memory modules over 64K'. Is that bits, bytes, or words? If the first, I have some 96Kbit core emmeory modules in the PDP8/e on my desk. Surely _that_ is a vintage computer. If, as I suspect, it means 'bytes' then how many of the follwoing machines are not vintage : HP87, HP9000/200 series, HP Intergral, any Unibus or Qbus PDP11, any VAX, Whitechapel MG1, PERQ (any model), etc, etc, etc. I believe memory PCBs of > 64K byutes were available for all of those. And then there is the question of security. I don;t think anyone could be ecpected to man their stand for the entire day without the odd break. How do you ensure that stuff doesn't go walkabout? It would also appear that if you are looking after your own collection you wouldn't be able ot go to the talks or the flea market. I have one regret. One of my dreams was to be present at a true classic computer enthusiasts meeting. That is, a room where a number of us turn up with our own machines, discus them, exchange tips and tricks, and so on. A room with ample power. Of course the public should be admitted, but as I said earlier, it would remain a technical event. My regret is that this is not going to happen now -- ever. The style of VCF-UK seems to have been set. But I truely wish that VCF-UK is a success. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 21 14:02:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 20:02:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF5A21C.A7FECCA6@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 20, 10 01:57:00 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > Personally, I'd be a lot more impressed if someone used an Edison wax > > cylinder recording to load data into an Apple IIe. > > > > But I impress easily... > > Ya know, I have the equipment to do that, except the piezo transducer that > drives the needle in the wax recorder is cracked. Piezo transducer? To do this properly you have to use an electromagnetic driver for recording and a carbon microphone for reproduction. Anything else is cheating. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 21 14:06:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 20:06:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: silly faults / was Re: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <20100520143252.T92342@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 20, 10 02:36:39 pm Message-ID: > > I defy anyone to come > > up with a sensible defintion of personal computer that excludes the > > hP9830 (aka Model 30 calculator). > > Well, if you are going to stipulate "sensible", then none of the board of > education definitions would apply. Why does that not suprise me :-) As I've remarked before, I wonder why the IBM5100 rememebred more than the HP9830. Sure, the 5100 had a CRT display and the 9830 a 1-line LED display, but apart from that they were farily similar in their capabilites. And the 9830 was afew years earlier. I could put a strong case forwards for callling it the first personal computer. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 21 14:41:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 12:41:02 -0700 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6BB77.2050007@gmail.com> References: <4BF6BB77.2050007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BF67F5E.14601.15A5DDC@cclist.sydex.com> ...so who's running it under OS/2 Warp? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 21 14:38:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 20:38:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6D3BC.1060607@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at May 21, 10 12:41:00 pm Message-ID: > And I can't play it again cause I have no idea where > insert the 25 cents. I found this slot of the front of my computer-thingy. It's about 9cm wide, so it looked a little large for coils, but what the heck. Anyway, I put in 25p (I figgred my computer is set up for England), but all I got was a flash of light from the slot, follweed by smoke. And my screen went dark. Does anyone knowwhat do to now? -tony From ama at ugr.es Fri May 21 15:05:21 2010 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 22:05:21 +0200 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <201005211818.o4LIIPbO016082@floodgap.com> References: <4BF6C7CC.2040104@gmail.com> <201005211818.o4LIIPbO016082@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100521200521.GA10536@darwin.ugr.es> On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 11:18:25AM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I think a great deal is dependent on one's browser, too. I'm sure it runs > at a ripping speed on anything Chrome-derived. Mozilla, not so much, though > Firefox does handle it considerably better than Camino. VIMperator_ (Iceweasel) run it just fine on a 900 MHz EEEPC 700 (actually running between 113 MHz and 450 MHz most of the time :-). Cheers. ?ngel From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 21 15:08:33 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:08:33 -0600 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <6721CD154BE740BBABE157A83C8D5BD6@ANTONIOPC> References: <6721CD154BE740BBABE157A83C8D5BD6@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4BF6E841.30602@jetnet.ab.ca> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> And I can't play it again cause I have no idea where >> insert the 25 cents. > > Look where "I'm feeling lucky" usually sits :-) > I know, You plunk in 25 cents and then hit the button to start! If you all get a bill for $352.25 from Google next month don't say I did not warn you. You all should be saving quarters and stuff for the Straight 8 that is up for sale. Ben. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 21 15:44:24 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 16:44:24 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: References: <4BF6D3BC.1060607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> And I can't play it again cause I have no idea where >> insert the 25 cents. > > I found this slot of the front of my computer-thingy. It's about 9cm > wide, so it looked a little large for coils, but what the heck. Anyway, I > put in 25p (I figgred my computer is set up for England), but all I got > was a flash of light from the slot, follweed by smoke. And my screen went > dark. > > Does anyone knowwhat do to now? Start swapping boards. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 21 15:54:43 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 21:54:43 +0100 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: References: <4BF6D3BC.1060607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, May 21, 2010 at 8:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> And I can't play it again cause I have no idea where >> insert the 25 cents. > > I found this slot of the front of my computer-thingy. It's about 9cm > wide, so it looked a little large for coils, but what the heck. Anyway, I > put in 25p (I figgred my computer is set up for England), but all I got > was a flash of light from the slot, follweed by smoke. And my screen went > dark. > > Does anyone knowwhat do to now? I'd throw it away, it's clearly not worth fixing. Probably too old. I have an old AthlonXP 2800+ I can give you if you like. 1GB RAM, 2 x 20GB hard disks, basic 3D card. Skipware, in other words, nobody'd want a computer this ancient... Why, it could barely run Windows 7! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 21 16:02:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 14:02:34 -0700 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: References: <4BF6D3BC.1060607@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at May 21, 10 12:41:00 pm, Message-ID: <4BF6927A.15054.1A503D8@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 May 2010 at 20:38, Tony Duell wrote: > I found this slot of the front of my computer-thingy. It's about 9cm > wide, so it looked a little large for coils, but what the heck. > Anyway, I put in 25p (I figgred my computer is set up for England), > but all I got was a flash of light from the slot, follweed by smoke. > And my screen went dark. You ran out of bits. Go to your friendly local computer dealer and puchase a few kg. of the correct size of bits for your computer, then carefully pour them into that slot. Everything should then be fine. The automatic cup holder should even operate correctly. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Fri May 21 16:18:44 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 17:18:44 -0400 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6E841.30602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <6721CD154BE740BBABE157A83C8D5BD6@ANTONIOPC> <4BF6E841.30602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BF6F8B4.1090006@verizon.net> Ben wrote: > arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>> And I can't play it again cause I have no idea where >>> insert the 25 cents. >> >> Look where "I'm feeling lucky" usually sits :-) >> > > I know, You plunk in 25 cents and then hit the button to start! > If you all get a bill for $352.25 from Google next month don't say > I did not warn you. > You all should be saving quarters and stuff for the Straight 8 > that is up for sale. > Ben. if you send this message to all your friends, and cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org, you'll get a check in the mail for $107.50 for each email you send. someone told me this doesn't work, but I figure what the heck? what can it hurt? I've already got my check for $3977.50 for ten minutes work. Keith From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 21 16:34:49 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 15:34:49 -0600 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6F8B4.1090006@verizon.net> References: <6721CD154BE740BBABE157A83C8D5BD6@ANTONIOPC> <4BF6E841.30602@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BF6F8B4.1090006@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BF6FC79.3090900@jetnet.ab.ca> Keith M wrote: > if you send this message to all your friends, and cc: > cctalk at classiccmp.org, you'll get a check in the mail for $107.50 for > each email you send. > > someone told me this doesn't work, but I figure what the heck? what can > it hurt? I've already got my check for $3977.50 for ten minutes work. > > Keith And the sand thing, is I think that kind of scam is legal on computers in USA and Canada. PS. For the other Doodle email, once you get your screen working, demand your 25p back! Did you have arcades in the UK at the time it was popular in the USA/Canada. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 21 16:56:28 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 22:56:28 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> References: <006801caf866$378dc130$8dfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <4BF7018C.7000404@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/05/2010 08:13, RodSmallwood wrote: > After studying the publicity it would appear that the VCF-UK is simply > another in a series of events organized by Bletchley Park themselves. What's wrong with that? Someone has to organise it, if there's to be a VCF UK at all. And they are, after all, organising it as a VCF by agreement of Sellam. > I suspect that a lot of what you might see is already there. Note that the > show is sub-titled "A history of computing in the UK" The only non-uk > reference appears to be to Amiga. Likewise the speaker list is mainly UK > biased. Could the emphasis have anything to do with the country it's in? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 21 17:03:26 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 23:03:26 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> from "RodSmallwood" at May 21, 10 08:13:37 am Message-ID: <003701caf931$737d84c0$5a788e40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > Having looked at the appropriate web pages, I somewhat agree with you. > I > have serious reservations about the organisation of this event. I > hadn't > realised it was actually organised by Bletchley Park -- having > discovered > this, there is _no way_ I would waste my time attending. I hope this > desn't sound like sour grapes. > > It appears that they have no clue about the sort of things that private > collectors get up to, and the sort of people who they really should be > catering for. It appears to be public show. Don't get me wrong, I am in > favour of us sharing our knowledge and interest with everyone, but > equally, having to explain for the 10th time in an many minutes that, > no, > this machine does not run Windows gets boring fast. I think back to the > very successful HPCC conference in 2007. Although members of the public > were welcome to atttend (I think you had to book in advance), it was a > very techncial event, If you hadn't a clue about A-level (high school) > mathematics, or simple electronics, or things like that you would not > have got anything out of it. And that's how I feel about a VCF-type > event. It should be a place for fellow enthuiasts to talk about and > demonstrate the machines we all love. If others are interested, fine. > But > it should be pitched at a level that assumes everyone will at least > know > what machine code is, what a flip-flop is, etc. > > Some things struck me instantly. The default space for a private > collector is 1m*2m. That is nowehre near large enough. I could fill > that > area with a collection of _handheld_ computers, and that's a minor part > of my collection. I think just about any reasonable classic micro set > up > (keyboard, storage, monitor possibly a printer) with a sheet of text > (in > a large font) saying what it is and why it's interesting would occupy > more than that space. And as for a minicomputer, well... > > There is no mention of power. Will people be able to power up their > private collections? If so, how much power per 'stand'. Note that > 13A > BS1363 sockets doesn't tell you anything. It may well be a total of 30A > or less for the entire room. Which is again nowhere near enough. And > what > about safety? There is a slight risk of electrical failure, metal cases > becoming live, etc./ What is going to be done about that? Or do the > organisers (as I suspect) regard classic computers as pieces of art, > not > to be powered up? > > I found some curious statements for the flea market (or whatever you > want > to call it). 'No PCs' What is a PC? Do they really believe that the > IBM5150 is not a significant vintage machine? > > And then 'No memory modules over 64K'. Is that bits, bytes, or words? > If > the first, I have some 96Kbit core emmeory modules in the PDP8/e on my > desk. Surely _that_ is a vintage computer. If, as I suspect, it means > 'bytes' then how many of the follwoing machines are not vintage : HP87, > HP9000/200 series, HP Intergral, any Unibus or Qbus PDP11, any VAX, > Whitechapel MG1, PERQ (any model), etc, etc, etc. I believe memory PCBs > of > 64K byutes were available for all of those. > > And then there is the question of security. I don;t think anyone could > be > ecpected to man their stand for the entire day without the odd break. > How > do you ensure that stuff doesn't go walkabout? It would also appear > that > if you are looking after your own collection you wouldn't be able ot go > to the talks or the flea market. > > I have one regret. One of my dreams was to be present at a true classic > computer enthusiasts meeting. That is, a room where a number of us turn > up with our own machines, discus them, exchange tips and tricks, and so > on. A room with ample power. Of course the public should be admitted, > but > as I said earlier, it would remain a technical event. My regret is that > this is not going to happen now -- ever. The style of VCF-UK seems to > have been set. > > But I truely wish that VCF-UK is a success. > > -tony I think you may be being a little too critical. I too raised an eyebrow at the 64K memory thing, however I think is it not meant to be taken literally, but just intended to mean that recent-ish PCs do not count. Also regarding space, I quote (my emphasis) "*Typically* we will have 2m x 1m available for those bringing systems, *although we will make more space for something special*.". They also link to pictures of the US VCFs, indicating this is what they want to replicate, and those *do* show working systems etc, so I don't think it is fair to say they want art pieces and they don't want them to work. I have to agree that there is no info on power available, so that would be a concern. I would imagine that the security of your collection would have to be your responsibility though, and I think that is as it should be. I also can't see why you think this is a non-technical event, I actually can't see anything that says it is either technical or non-technical, I think people will make of it what they want, and I certainly can't imagine anyone in my immediate family ever wanting to attend such an event, so I am pretty sure most attendees will be enthusiasts. I think time will tell whether this is a worthwhile event or not, ultimately, I think if technical people want to attend then it will be a technical event, if they stay away it won't be. As this is the first such in the UK I think we should give it a chance and take the opportunity to influence the shape of future events. Regards Rob From ats at offog.org Fri May 21 17:07:16 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 23:07:16 +0100 Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6927A.15054.1A503D8@cclist.sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Fri, 21 May 2010 14:02:34 -0700") References: <4BF6D3BC.1060607@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BF6927A.15054.1A503D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: "Chuck Guzis" writes: > You ran out of bits. Hang on, I'm sure I've got a bag of spare address marks for the PCW somewhere here... -- Adam Sampson From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 21 17:14:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 15:14:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF7018C.7000404@dunnington.plus.com> References: <006801caf866$378dc130$8dfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> <4BF7018C.7000404@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20100521150955.Y43154@shell.lmi.net> > > After studying the publicity it would appear that the VCF-UK is simply > > another in a series of events organized by Bletchley Park themselves. > What's wrong with that? Someone has to organise it, if there's to be a > VCF UK at all. And they are, after all, organising it as a VCF by > agreement of Sellam. Could organization of this event (in spite of some flaws in publicizing it!) indicate the start of a trend there, towards paying more attention to private collectors? Although inadequately defined (howzbout: a "ten year rule"? :-), the restrictions of "no PCs", "no memory above . . . " seem to indicate a desire to put the emphasis on "classic" computers. > > I suspect that a lot of what you might see is already there. Note that the > > show is sub-titled "A history of computing in the UK" The only non-uk > > reference appears to be to Amiga. Who wrote Amiga-OS? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 21 20:33:57 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 01:33:57 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6927A.15054.1A503D8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <359253111.32577541274492037579.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> ----- Chuck Guzis wrote: | | You ran out of bits. With enough bits, you can play Pacman on the PDP :) http://tinyurl.com/2aza5yq =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri May 21 20:34:13 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 18:34:13 -0700 Subject: Anti-glare filter material for old CRTs? Message-ID: <4BF73495.90800@mail.msu.edu> Hi all -- I have an Apple III green-screen monitor here which is pristine except for a big gash in the anti-glare material (some sort of fine mesh) covering the front of the CRT. I'd like to replace it, but I'm not entirely sure what it is that I'm looking for... anyone done this before? Thanks as always... Josh From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 21 21:21:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 19:21:06 -0700 Subject: Anti-glare filter material for old CRTs? In-Reply-To: <4BF73495.90800@mail.msu.edu> References: <4BF73495.90800@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4BF6DD22.19783.2C8A234@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 May 2010 at 18:34, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have an Apple III green-screen monitor here which is pristine except > for a big gash in the anti-glare material (some sort of fine mesh) > covering the front of the CRT. I'd like to replace it, but I'm not > entirely sure what it is that I'm looking for... anyone done this > before? Some folks used to use pantyhose. But search for "Fellowes Anti Glare" and you'll turn up some mesh supplies. But they were pretty miserable--they blurred the edges of lines and produced moir? effects. Better to use the multi-layer glass models if you have deep pockets and want the best. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 22 01:32:32 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 02:32:32 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4208071302446904920@unknownmsgid> References: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> <4208071302446904920@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: > I think time will tell whether this is a worthwhile event or not, > ultimately, I think if technical people want to attend then it will be a > technical event, if they stay away it won't be. As this is the first such in > the UK I think we should give it a chance and take the opportunity to > influence the shape of future events. I would encourage all our UK and European members to give this show a chance. Go. You will have fun. Go to any VCF you can. Go to Sellam's original VCF, when he gets it going again. Go to the MARCH VCFEast, so you can pick a fight with me. Go to VCF Midwest ot VCF Europe. We, as a community, still need to work on PR. There seem to be some assholes that have/had...issues...with the Museum folk in question, and now have an axe to grind (really, who did not see this coming?), but they can be ignored, and fun will be had by all attending. I wish I could be there, but I have more machines to rescue. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 22 02:34:21 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 00:34:21 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe References: Message-ID: <4BF788FE.917619E9@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > > > Personally, I'd be a lot more impressed if someone used an Edison wax > > > cylinder recording to load data into an Apple IIe. > > > > > > But I impress easily... > > > > Ya know, I have the equipment to do that, except the piezo transducer that > > drives the needle in the wax recorder is cracked. > > Piezo transducer? To do this properly you have to use an electromagnetic > driver for recording and a carbon microphone for reproduction. Anything > else is cheating. .. To do it properly, only acoustic energy is permitted, no electricity allowed. As it is, the wax recorder I have is an office dictating machine dating from the 1940's or perhaps 1930's. The crystal piezo transducer was used for both record and playback. It contains just two tubes and is conceptually very simple, but that crystal is a very specialised part that - while perhaps not an insurmountable problem - is not going to be particularly easy to fabricate today in a one-off instance. From paulp1 at gmail.com Fri May 21 19:21:24 2010 From: paulp1 at gmail.com (Paul Popelka) Date: Fri, 21 May 2010 17:21:24 -0700 Subject: Looking for DEC BA11-A chassis (PDP 11/44 or 11/24) rail sets Message-ID: If someone knows where to find these, I'd like to buy a couple. Thanks, Paul From ats at offog.org Sat May 22 06:34:32 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 12:34:32 +0100 Subject: Assorted items in Canterbury, UK, part 1 Message-ID: <20100522113426.GA21004@cartman.at.offog.org> Hi all, I'm going to be moving house next month, so I've been slimming down my collection a bit -- here's the first batch. If you'd like to give any of it a home, let me know; offers from 0p and up accepted. I'm mostly just after the space back, although if anyone'd like to swap me a Commodore 1541 or two... This is located in Canterbury, Kent, UK. I'd prefer local collection or delivery. I'm not going to be able to make it to VCF-UK (:(), but if you know someone else from the south-east who's going, I could deliver bits to them. A box of assorted PET-related items (but no PETs), including: - A few IEEE-488 cables, both 488-to-488 and PET-to-488 - Internal PET serial board that appears to piggyback on a ROM socket - Small Systems Engineering B200 488-to-serial interface (boxed) - Small Systems Engineering B300 488-to-serial interface (unboxed, dusty) - User-port-attached 2716 EPROM programmer - Mutek Sprinter 64K printer buffer - A stack of assorted manuals and other paperwork, including manuals for most of the bits above and PET schematics - Commodore "Anatomy of a Microcomputer" poster (PET quick reference) RM 480Z manuals: - Link 480Z User's Guide - Link 480Z Information File - Extended Basic v5 - Extended Basic v5/6 A Signetics Instructor 50, with manuals, PSU and training tape. This is a rather neat Signetics 2650 development kit. Original ACT Apricot PC, with keyboard, the world's cutest monitor, and some documentation. This is an 8086 non-PC-compatible MS-DOS machine, with early 3.5" drives. New-in-box Philips Z80 computer boards. The outer box is labelled 8213 170 26550 Type VM 5020 -- so is this half of a P5020? - 8213 170 25810 Type VM 5022 - motherboard with Z80 and Z80CTC (This has slots for various other boards to plug into, including the two below, and RAM and graphics boards which I don't have) - 8213 170 25840 Type VM 5023 - disk controller board with MMB8877A and Z80DMA - 8213 170 27160 Type VM 6500/C - modem - 8213 170 27601 Speaker Radio Shack "Science Fair Digital Computer Kit". This is really just a load of multiway switches and some creative manual-writing -- but aside from the box being tatty, it appears to be complete. I have separated the original batteries (which hadn't leaked!). The keyboard from a Tatung VT-4100 terminal. This has been rewired as a keyboard for a ZX Spectrum at some point, so it's cosmetically OK but there's no PCB inside, just the keyswitches. Compaq dual Pentium Pro desktop PC. I have more bits elsewhere (mostly newer Sun/SGI/PC stuff); I'll post another lot once it's sorted out... Thanks, -- Adam Sampson From andy at flirble.org Sat May 22 10:52:51 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 16:52:51 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <20100522155250.GA18349@plum.flirble.org> On (20:29 21/05/10), Tony Duell wrote: <> > Having looked at the appropriate web pages, I somewhat agree with you. I > have serious reservations about the organisation of this event. I hadn't > realised it was actually organised by Bletchley Park -- having discovered It's not as far as I can tell. The National Museum of Computing (TNMOC) is a different organisation to Bletchley Park trust. TNMOC is located at the Bletchley Park site, however. > this, there is _no way_ I would waste my time attending. I hope this > desn't sound like sour grapes. It does, sadly. Of the most bitter variety. That because it does not meet your particular notion of what a VCF should be you decide to rubbish it is, well, rather mean spirited to put it politely. The folks concerned have very limited time and resources, and with this they achieve an awful lot. They're making a real difference when it comes to educating newer generations about the history of computing, and we'd be a lot worse off in this respect were it not for their efforts. I for one applaud that they spend weekend upon weekend, working for free and trying to rescue as much as possible and get it on show to the public, when they too could be in the comfort of their own home and nurturing their own private collections. Perhaps they could do better, and would if certain folks made offer of assistance and provided constructive criticism, rather than sitting at home pontificating and griping at the doers. For shame. Regards, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 22 11:19:50 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 17:19:50 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100522155250.GA18349@plum.flirble.org> References: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> <20100522155250.GA18349@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Andrew Back wrote: > On (20:29 21/05/10), Tony Duell wrote: > > <> > >> Having looked at the appropriate web pages, I somewhat agree with you. I >> have serious reservations about the organisation of this event. I hadn't >> realised it was actually organised by Bletchley Park -- having discovered > > It's not as far as I can tell. The National Museum of Computing (TNMOC) is > a different organisation to Bletchley Park trust. TNMOC is located at the > Bletchley Park site, however. > >> this, there is _no way_ I would waste my time attending. ?I hope this >> desn't sound like sour grapes. > > It does, sadly. Of the most bitter variety. > > That because it does not meet your particular notion of what a VCF should be > you decide to rubbish it is, well, rather mean spirited to put it politely. > The folks concerned have very limited time and resources, and with this they > achieve an awful lot. They're making a real difference when it comes to > educating newer generations about the history of computing, and we'd be a > lot worse off in this respect were it not for their efforts. I for one > applaud that they spend weekend upon weekend, working for free and trying to > rescue as much as possible and get it on show to the public, when they too > could be in the comfort of their own home and nurturing their own private > collections. > > Perhaps they could do better, and would if certain folks made offer of > assistance and provided constructive criticism, rather than sitting at home > pontificating and griping at the doers. > > For shame. > > Regards, > > Andrew Actually, to be honest, I thought much the same, but didn't want to say anything. Sorry, Tony, but it really does come over that way. It seems to me that you could (or could have) really contributed a lot to this, but you didn't notice the announcement and now are throwing your toys out of the pram. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 22 11:39:37 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 10:39:37 -0600 Subject: (ebay) Wang VS100 mini Message-ID: Item # 160437181052 opening bid is a reasonable $100. They say it was decommissioned in 2009, so maybe they have some of the peripherals too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Sat May 22 12:17:47 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 10:17:47 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100522155250.GA18349@plum.flirble.org> References: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> <20100522155250.GA18349@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Back > Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:53 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > [snip] > The folks concerned have very limited time and resources, and with this > they > achieve an awful lot. They're making a real difference when it comes to > educating newer generations about the history of computing, and we'd be > a > lot worse off in this respect were it not for their efforts. I for one > applaud that they spend weekend upon weekend, working for free and > trying to > rescue as much as possible and get it on show to the public, when they > too > could be in the comfort of their own home and nurturing their own > private > collections. > I had the pleasure of meeting with TNMOC staff both at the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere and at the Bletchley Park site. I want to second Andrew's praise of the great work they have done, and add that I find them to be delightful people as well. For such as we, I think there is risk of discounting the work people like TNMOC do in bringing their work to the greater number, as distinct from sharing with the cognoscenti. While I certainly enjoy nattering with like-minded fellows about my toys, it is that former work, the sharing, that adds value to the world. Frankly, it's also more difficult: while restoring old kit is certainly challenging, it is a separate art to build a connection to a non-technical audience and help them appreciate the value of the history we are preserving. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. Madness takes its toll - please have exact change. -- Ian From RichA at vulcan.com Sat May 22 12:36:36 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 10:36:36 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> <20100522155250.GA18349@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: From: Ian King Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 10:18 AM >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Back >> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2010 8:53 AM [snip] >> The folks concerned have very limited time and resources, and with this >> they achieve an awful lot. They're making a real difference when it >> comes to educating newer generations about the history of computing, >> and we'd be a lot worse off in this respect were it not for their >> efforts. I for one applaud that they spend weekend upon weekend, >> working for free and trying to rescue as much as possible and get it on >> show to the public, when they too could be in the comfort of their own >> home and nurturing their own private collections. > I had the pleasure of meeting with TNMOC staff both at the DEC Legacy > Event in Windermere and at the Bletchley Park site. I want to second > Andrew's praise of the great work they have done, and add that I find > them to be delightful people as well. > For such as we, I think there is risk of discounting the work people > like TNMOC do in bringing their work to the greater number, as distinct > from sharing with the cognoscenti. While I certainly enjoy nattering > with like-minded fellows about my toys, it is that former work, the > sharing, that adds value to the world. Frankly, it's also more > difficult: while restoring old kit is certainly challenging, it is a > separate art to build a connection to a non-technical audience and help > them appreciate the value of the history we are preserving. Ahh, careful now, Ian. Besides being a private collector, you're also one of those awful, evil museum people who hoards the good stuff and never lets the cognoscenti see it. Oh, wait. Aren't you the one who lectures every quarter at the University of Washington on the history of computing, and arranges tours for the students in those classes to come get an in-depth tour of the collection? And arranges with the Dean of the School of Information and the Chair of the Department of Informatics for graduate opportunities to work with vintaqe equipment in order to preserve the history of information processing? We did, as I noted previously, have a great time on our visit to TNMoC, and I resent the aspersions cast on their massive work. They've done it all on their own, investing their own funds, where we actually get paid. Another 2d 'orth. As for tolls, remember the sign on at the Chicken Ranch: "Never ask for whom the belle tolls: She tolls for thee!" Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 22 13:14:16 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 11:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: more stuff FFS: 68K and classic Apple software Message-ID: <201005221814.o4MIEGo8015658@floodgap.com> More stuff from my closet that's gotta go. These are offered as AN ITEM. I will not part them out. Actual shipping or pickup gets them. Pickup and USA requests have priority, but I will consider international requests. Pickup from Inland Empire, CA. Need to be out by the end of the month. I don't testify to their completeness or functionality, but they all appear to contain manuals and the full complement of disks. - Now Utilities 5.0. Includes Now Foldermenus + Now Menus (hierarchical file, utility and folder menu extension), Now Save (autosave tool), Now Startup Manager (Extensions Manager on roids), Now Super Boomerang (enhances the standard Save/Open dialogues without Nav Services), Now Scrapbook (image and media converter and archiver), Now Profile (spiritual ancestor to Apple System Profiler), Now Quickfiler (fast find) and Now WYSIWYG Menus (WYSIWYG font menu extension). System 7.0+, PPC enhanced, 68K compatible. - DataDesk by Odesta. Stats package, interactive graphs, ANOVA analysis, etc. Mac 68K. Used this tool a lot as an undergrad. - AppleShare 2.0.1 (supports AppleTalk Phase 2) for the PC. Requires PC ISA AppleTalk card (not included). - pcMACTERM II for the PC and Mac. Allows the Mac to take remote control of a DOS PC over an AppleTalk network, and file exchange. Includes both PC 5.25" and Mac 3.5" disks. Requires PC ISA AppleTalk card (not included). Also posted to 68KMLA. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff. -- Frank Zappa ---- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 22 13:37:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 19:37:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <359253111.32577541274492037579.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> from "Dan Roganti" at May 22, 10 01:33:57 am Message-ID: > > > ----- Chuck Guzis wrote: > | > | You ran out of bits. > > > With enough bits, you can play Pacman on the PDP :) > http://tinyurl.com/2aza5yq I'd rather play it on a PERQ, or the cat-and-mouse version on an HP80 series... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 22 13:40:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 19:40:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BF788FE.917619E9@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 22, 10 00:34:21 am Message-ID: > > > Ya know, I have the equipment to do that, except the piezo transducer that > > > drives the needle in the wax recorder is cracked. > > > > Piezo transducer? To do this properly you have to use an electromagnetic > > driver for recording and a carbon microphone for reproduction. Anything > > else is cheating. > > .. To do it properly, only acoustic energy is permitted, no electricity allowed. I wouild love to know how you're going to charge and discharge the capacitors in the DRAM chips of an Apple //e without usimg electricity :-) > > As it is, the wax recorder I have is an office dictating machine dating from > the 1940's or perhaps 1930's. > The crystal piezo transducer was used for both record and playback. Ah yes... One of the machines that were around shortly before magnetic recodings became populer. > > It contains just two tubes and is conceptually very simple, but that crystal is > a very specialised part that - while perhaps not an insurmountable problem - is > not going to be particularly easy to fabricate today in a one-off instance. I assume you couldn't use a peizo buzzer or speaker or something like that? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 22 13:18:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 19:18:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Today's Google Doodle In-Reply-To: <4BF6927A.15054.1A503D8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 21, 10 02:02:34 pm Message-ID: > You ran out of bits. Go to your friendly local computer dealer and Friendly and 'lcoal computer dealer' don't go together. Probably something about the time I told them that I did not need to buy a new , all I wanted was one little chip... > puchase a few kg. of the correct size of bits for your computer, > then carefully pour them into that slot. Can you recycle bits? I was ondering if I could empty some out of the write-only-memory board used for /dev/null on one of my unix boxen. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 22 13:32:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 19:32:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <003701caf931$737d84c0$5a788e40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 21, 10 11:03:26 pm Message-ID: > I think you may be being a little too critical. I too raised an eyebrow at > the 64K memory thing, however I think is it not meant to be taken literally, 30-odd years of working with computers had made me take things literally.. And I would suspect a lot of other computer enthusiasts would feel the same way, particularly in the rules for an event so-say aimed at computer enthusiasts and related to said computers > but just intended to mean that recent-ish PCs do not count. Also regarding I realised what it was supposed to mean... However I feel it could imply one of the following They believe that no vintage computer ever had a memory module > 64K (again, what units?) They believer that while such machines existed, nobody has got them in their private collections > space, I quote (my emphasis) "*Typically* we will have 2m x 1m available for > those bringing systems, *although we will make more space for something > special*.". They also link to pictures of the US VCFs, indicating this is Yes, I read that. My point is that 2m*1m is too small IMHO for _any_ meaninful exhibit othter than posisbly a 1980's home micro. Again, it appears that's the sort of machine they are expecting. My view is that they should have asked people who wanted to exhibit what they were planning on brining, the size, the power requirements, and so on. There should also have been a web page for potential exhibitos giving details of power, access (could you get a vheicle near the exhibition room?) and so on. > what they want to replicate, and those *do* show working systems etc, so I I have learnt by bitter experience not to make assumptions like that. > don't think it is fair to say they want art pieces and they don't want them > to work. I have to agree that there is no info on power available, so that > would be a concern. I would imagine that the security of your collection > would have to be your responsibility though, and I think that is as it > should be. I also can't see why you think this is a non-technical event, I I would agree that security should be the exhibitors responsibiliy. Which essentially means a 1-man exhibit is impossible. And that exhibitoirs do not get to enjoy the rest of the VCF. > actually can't see anything that says it is either technical or > non-technical, I think people will make of it what they want, and I > certainly can't imagine anyone in my immediate family ever wanting to attend > such an event, so I am pretty sure most attendees will be enthusiasts. Hmmm.. Amoe years ago I volunteered at Bletchley park (I gave up for several reasons, mostly due to terminally clueless management). THe visitors on those days certainly included a large number of non-technical people (thei did not really suprise me). Since the VCF is going to be open to all of those who are attending BP on that day, I would guess there will be some non-technical people at the VCF too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 22 13:36:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 19:36:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100521150955.Y43154@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 21, 10 03:14:21 pm Message-ID: > > > > After studying the publicity it would appear that the VCF-UK is simply > > > another in a series of events organized by Bletchley Park themselves. > > What's wrong with that? Someone has to organise it, if there's to be a > > VCF UK at all. And they are, after all, organising it as a VCF by > > agreement of Sellam. > > Could organization of this event (in spite of some flaws in publicizing > it!) indicate the start of a trend there, towards paying more attention to > private collectors? Possibly. One of my main moans about BP is that they routinely ignore enthusisats. They don't seem to believe you can be self-taught and clueful. We can start the field-servoid war again if you like... But maybe they're attempting to get private collectors just to make it more like the US VCFs. > > > I suspect that a lot of what you might see is already there. Note that the > > > show is sub-titled "A history of computing in the UK" The only non-uk > > > reference appears to be to Amiga. > > Who wrote Amiga-OS? IIRC it was based on Tripos, which came from Dr Martin Richards at Cambridge University... I really must get Tripos running on one of my PDP11s sometime.... -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 22 14:24:17 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 12:24:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 22, 10 07:36:31 pm" Message-ID: <201005221924.o4MJOHBx013506@floodgap.com> > > Who wrote Amiga-OS? > > IIRC it was based on Tripos, which came from Dr Martin Richards at > Cambridge University... I really must get Tripos running on one of my > PDP11s sometime.... You are correct. Dr Richards ported Tripos into a machine-independent BCPL representation called Cintpos. It will run on most systems, including x86 and PowerPC. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/Cintpos.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -- Chico Marx ------------- From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 22 14:48:15 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 14:48:15 -0500 Subject: (ebay) Wang VS100 mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Richard wrote: > Item # 160437181052 > > opening bid is a reasonable $100. ?They say it was decommissioned in > 2009, so maybe they have some of the peripherals too. Interesting...looks like it's from the late 70s. What OS did it run? From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 22 15:13:14 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 14:13:14 -0600 Subject: (ebay) Wang VS100 mini In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 22 May 2010 14:48:15 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Jason T writes: > On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 11:39 AM, Richard wrote: > > Item # 160437181052 > > > > opening bid is a reasonable $100. =A0They say it was decommissioned in > > 2009, so maybe they have some of the peripherals too. > > Interesting...looks like it's from the late 70s. What OS did it run? >From what I know about Wang gear, something custom to Wang computers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 22 15:28:25 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 16:28:25 -0400 Subject: (ebay) Wang VS100 mini In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >From what I know about Wang gear, something custom to Wang computers. VS. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 22 15:44:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 21:44:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <201005221924.o4MJOHBx013506@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 22, 10 12:24:17 pm Message-ID: > > > > Who wrote Amiga-OS? > > > > IIRC it was based on Tripos, which came from Dr Martin Richards at > > Cambridge University... I really must get Tripos running on one of my > > PDP11s sometime.... > > You are correct. Dr Richards ported Tripos into a machine-independent > BCPL representation called Cintpos. It will run on most systems, including > x86 and PowerPC. Tripos was also written in BCPL, or at least much of it was. I have the sources, and the sources for the BCPL compiler (and guess what that's written in...) As I said, one day I must get it running on the PDP11 again (which is one of the machines it originally ran on). -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 22 16:27:25 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 14:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: more stuff FFS: 68K and classic Apple software Message-ID: <201005222127.o4MLRPxS010212@floodgap.com> They have been claimed. Thanks to all who inquired. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The world is a mess and I just need to rule it. -- Dr. Horrible ------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 22 16:34:34 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 14:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "May 22, 10 09:44:43 pm" Message-ID: <201005222134.o4MLYYAL016982@floodgap.com> > > > > Who wrote Amiga-OS? > > > > > > IIRC it was based on Tripos, which came from Dr Martin Richards at > > > Cambridge University... I really must get Tripos running on one of my > > > PDP11s sometime.... > > > > You are correct. Dr Richards ported Tripos into a machine-independent > > BCPL representation called Cintpos. It will run on most systems, including > > x86 and PowerPC. > > Tripos was also written in BCPL, or at least much of it was. I have the > sources, and the sources for the BCPL compiler (and guess what that's > written in...) As I said, one day I must get it running on the PDP11 > again (which is one of the machines it originally ran on). I think you misunderstand me. The special bit about Cintpos isn't that it's BCPL, it's that the BCPL compilers he maintains compile to a bytecode and this is machine-independent. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Endian Little Hate We" -- credits from Connectix Virtual PC 6 for Mac ----- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 22 18:06:50 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 16:06:50 -0700 Subject: Tandy 102 Portable Computer Message-ID: I just got the second load of Commodore gear (including a mint C16 and tape recorder). In the load was some stuff for the Tandy, which reminded me I got one in January with the other load. It works! :-) A couple questions. First any recommendation on cleaning the screen. It looks like it sat in its bag for too many years. Second, are there any good manuals for the BASIC implementation online? How does one save or load a BASIC program? I'm so excited, and I can't believe I forgot I had this for almost 4 months! I've wanted one of these for about 20 years. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bryan.pope at comcast.net Sat May 22 18:56:08 2010 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 19:56:08 -0400 Subject: Original Commodore PET for sale Message-ID: <4BF86F18.8050300@comcast.net> I have decided to put my Commodore PET 2001 with blue bezel up for sale. It is in beautiful condition with both the computer and tape drive working very nicely. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190399121787 or Item #190399121787 Cheers, Bryan From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 22 19:15:38 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 18:15:38 -0600 Subject: (ebay) Wang VS100 mini In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 22 May 2010 16:28:25 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > >From what I know about Wang gear, something custom to Wang computers. > > VS. Some more is here on Wikipedia: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bruce at consultbcm.com Sat May 22 19:52:08 2010 From: bruce at consultbcm.com (Bruce Michael) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 20:52:08 -0400 Subject: Early Byte Magazines Message-ID: <2A6FEBF958B9084FBEF862D907A5CCF346E37E@server2.bcm2.local> Earlier Byte magazines: 8/76, 11/76, 1/77 through 6/77, 2/80, 5/80 and 8/80. All in good condition. Best offer for all eleven will take them. Shipping additional. Contact me at bcmactuary at gmail.com. Bruce From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat May 22 21:07:05 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 21:07:05 -0500 Subject: Spectravideo compumate Message-ID: I didn't realize someone had made a computer/keyboard interface for the atari 2600. http://cgi.ebay.com/SPECTRAVIDEO-COMPUMATE-ATARI-2600-BRAND-NEW-RARE-/160437395430?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Vintage_Video_Games&hash=item255ad05fe6 From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat May 22 21:12:49 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 22:12:49 -0400 Subject: Spectravideo compumate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF88F21.9020207@atarimuseum.com> Yup, they were the only company to get a keyboard add-on out for the 2600... Wow, Hugo Chavez is really getting desperate for money, I didn't realize he was selling off his Atari collection ;-) Curt Brian Lanning wrote: > I didn't realize someone had made a computer/keyboard interface for > the atari 2600. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/SPECTRAVIDEO-COMPUMATE-ATARI-2600-BRAND-NEW-RARE-/160437395430?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Vintage_Video_Games&hash=item255ad05fe6 > > From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 22 22:28:28 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 22:28:28 -0500 Subject: Tandy 102 Portable Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 22, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I just got the second load of Commodore gear (including a mint C16 and tape > recorder). ?In the load was some stuff for the Tandy, which reminded me I > got one in January with the other load. ?It works! :-) The 10x series have a hardcore following that appears to be going strong. I've heard this is the nexus of all info online re: Tandy 10x. Messy page, but dense with data: http://www.club100.org/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 23 00:07:56 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 22 May 2010 22:07:56 -0700 Subject: Tandy 102 Portable Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:28 PM -0500 5/22/10, Jason T wrote: >The 10x series have a hardcore following that appears to be going >strong. I've heard this is the nexus of all info online re: Tandy >10x. Messy page, but dense with data: > >http://www.club100.org/ It looks like a good site, and will take some time to go through. They had a user manual that answered my BASIC question. I'll have to look and see if I can find a hard copy of the manual. I'm not sure if they have any info on cleaning it. Part of the two loads was a massive amount of Commodore books, but there is also other stuff in there. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 23 02:25:35 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 02:25:35 -0500 Subject: Pravetz 82 Message-ID: This is a longshot but I know this list reaches far and wide, so I'll give it a try. I am looking for a Bulgarian Apple ][ clone known as the Pravetz (or Pravets) 82: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=956&st=1 They were sold (or attempted to be sold) outside of the Eastern Bloc, I believe in the UK and mainly. Maybe one of them defected during this time or remained hiding in an attic somewhere in the Motherland. If you know of one already in the US, that would be great. Otherwise leads on one (working, preferred!) to be shipping stateside are appreciated as well. (And to those with experience with Eastern Euro machines, what is needed to run them on US power? Just a 220v->110v converter, or does the video have to be processed from PAL->NTSC as well?) -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 23 04:06:27 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 10:06:27 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <4BF5899E.8080403@verizon.net> References: <4BF5899E.8080403@verizon.net> Message-ID: <006701cafa57$3d3d0b70$b7b72250$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison > Sent: 20 May 2010 20:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: RD53 Restoration > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Yes, this drive did have a sticky bumper. I resolved it by putting a > very > >> thin sliver of tape over the sticky bit. I did not loosen any bolts, > but > >> > > > > I wonder if that bumper is no the wrong size, and that is what's > causing > > the problems.Maybe the heads have to be able to find something o nthe > > disk for hte drive to not find an error. > > > > -tony > > > > > > > I've outright removed the bumper with no ill effect. Reason for that > is unsticking it once didn't work as it would stick again. Only > solution > was remove the offending material. Result was a reliable working drive > that when powered off emitted a noticeable "clunk". That has had no > impact on reliability, least not for the last 10 years. > After putting back the original boards the disk worked again for a bit. But it is not working again now and I have determined that I have not completely cured the sticky bumper because when I placed a very small screwdriver in front of the bumper the heads moved again. I am curious about your solution of removing the sticky material entirely, I can't see how to do that without what looks like some serious dismantling, something which you recommended against on an earlier thread, maybe there is an easy way I cannot see. If anyone can tell me how do this I would really appreciate it (if anyone has a photo showing how this is done that would be great). Thanks Rob From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 23 04:15:30 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 05:15:30 -0400 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> Jason T wrote: > (And to those with experience with Eastern Euro machines, what is > needed to run them on US power? Just a 220v->110v converter, or does > the video have to be processed from PAL->NTSC as well?) Bulgaria in those days wouldn't have been PAL. They would have been using SECAM. Peace... Sridhar From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun May 23 04:34:14 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 10:34:14 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 23/05/2010 10:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jason T wrote: >> (And to those with experience with Eastern Euro machines, what is >> needed to run them on US power? Just a 220v->110v converter, or does >> the video have to be processed from PAL->NTSC as well?) > > Bulgaria in those days wouldn't have been PAL. They would have been > using SECAM. Though isn't SECAM essentially PAL but with the colour encoded slightly differently. e.g. if you feed a SECAM signal to a PAL display you get a picture that is black and white. Cheers. Phill. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 23 04:40:15 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 04:40:15 -0500 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Bulgaria in those days wouldn't have been PAL. ?They would have been using > SECAM. Alright - same question applies then: is converting SECAM->NTSC necessary to run one of these machines in the US (assuming I don't find a companion monitor for it?) From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun May 23 04:59:57 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 19:29:57 +0930 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1274608798.906.13.camel@fubar> On Sun, 2010-05-23 at 04:40 -0500, Jason T wrote: > Alright - same question applies then: is converting SECAM->NTSC > necessary to run one of these machines in the US (assuming I don't > find a companion monitor for it?) > I would imagine that it would have the same timings as other European Apple II clones, that is an NTSC signal padded to fit the slower PAL timing requirements (or at least that's what I've found with my //c). This would mean it'd be in B&W, unless they also made some sort of converter for it. I'm thinking along the lines of the //c PAL adaptor. SECAM has the same timing as B&W PAL (625 lines interlaced, 15625Hz line freuqnecy, 50Hz field rate) but the colour is encoded with FM instead of QAM and the U and V signals are sent on alternate lines. I doubt they would have gone to the effort of making an Apple II compatible with this scheme, because it really is *awful*. My guess to get it working on an NTSC television would be to adjust your horizontal and vertical sync pots, though it will still be in B&W. Cheers, Alexis. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 23 06:03:44 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 12:03:44 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/05/2010 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > Possibly. One of my main moans about BP is that they routinely ignore > enthusisats. They don't seem to believe you can be self-taught and > clueful. We can start the field-servoid war again if you like... That really isn't true of TNMoC (though as has been pointed out that's not the same organisation as the Bletchley Park Trust). TNMoC is run almost entirely by volunteers, and I've not known them refuse any help offered. Which is why I volunteered to help at VCF; that and talking to them (and Rich and Ian and others from this list) at the DEC Legacy event. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wfp1934 at bellsouth.net Sun May 23 04:43:58 2010 From: wfp1934 at bellsouth.net (Fred) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 04:43:58 -0500 Subject: Any info on the Hughes HM-4118 computer? Message-ID: <805BAB88312C4C768F4F4B4EC782B6D0@fred> i went to school in fullerton,ca with charlie marbury on the 4118 we were trained by the hughes engineers i helped install and maintain the 4118 at keesler i retired in 1973 my email address is wfp1934 at bellsouth.net my name is fred panter. we were trained in 1970 From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun May 23 09:02:25 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 15:02:25 +0100 Subject: Re Hughes HM-4118 Message-ID: While I cannot answer the particular question another use case of the manx data popped out when I searched for Hughes http://manx.archivist.info/search.php?search=hughes&errlev=0&company=0 To look who supplied what to a company Dave Caroline From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Sun May 23 10:00:15 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 10:00:15 -0500 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <3825B7E3-67A1-439F-836A-304005E8A572@bellsouth.net> PAL and SECAM are color encoding schemes, they are completely different. They will of course display black and white if you use one on the other and vice versa. The same is true if you also use an NTSC TV to display PAL (sync rates aside, usually that can be tuned with a V-hold adjustment or automatically by the set). On May 23, 2010, at 4:34 AM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 23/05/2010 10:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Jason T wrote: >>> (And to those with experience with Eastern Euro machines, what is >>> needed to run them on US power? Just a 220v->110v converter, or does >>> the video have to be processed from PAL->NTSC as well?) >> >> Bulgaria in those days wouldn't have been PAL. They would have been >> using SECAM. > > Though isn't SECAM essentially PAL but with the colour encoded slightly differently. e.g. if you feed a SECAM signal to a PAL display you get a picture that is black and white. > > Cheers. > > Phill. > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun May 23 10:28:28 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 08:28:28 -0700 Subject: Re Hughes HM-4118 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF9499C.40007@bitsavers.org> On 5/23/10 7:02 AM, Dave Caroline wrote: > While I cannot answer the particular question another use case of the > manx data popped out when I searched for Hughes > this is the best document I saw doing a quick G search http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/AD714292 STUDY OF THE U.S.A.F. TACTICAL AIR CONTROL SYSTEM (TACS) 1970 This reminded me that there are a lot of SDC memos surfacing that I hadn't seen before. I doubt any detailed documents on the computer itself are easily obtainable. Military computers in general are tough to find detailed information on. From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun May 23 10:38:21 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 11:38:21 -0400 Subject: RD53 Restoration In-Reply-To: <006701cafa57$3d3d0b70$b7b72250$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <4BF5899E.8080403@verizon.net> <006701cafa57$3d3d0b70$b7b72250$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4BF94BED.5080203@verizon.net> Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of allison >> Sent: 20 May 2010 20:13 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: RD53 Restoration >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> Yes, this drive did have a sticky bumper. I resolved it by putting a >>>> >> very >> >>>> thin sliver of tape over the sticky bit. I did not loosen any bolts, >>>> >> but >> >>> I wonder if that bumper is no the wrong size, and that is what's >>> >> causing >> >>> the problems.Maybe the heads have to be able to find something o nthe >>> disk for hte drive to not find an error. >>> >>> -tony >>> >>> >>> >>> >> I've outright removed the bumper with no ill effect. Reason for that >> is unsticking it once didn't work as it would stick again. Only >> solution >> was remove the offending material. Result was a reliable working drive >> that when powered off emitted a noticeable "clunk". That has had no >> impact on reliability, least not for the last 10 years. >> >> > > After putting back the original boards the disk worked again for a bit. But > it is not working again now and I have determined that I have not completely > cured the sticky bumper because when I placed a very small screwdriver in > front of the bumper the heads moved again. > > I am curious about your solution of removing the sticky material entirely, I > can't see how to do that without what looks like some serious dismantling, > something which you recommended against on an earlier thread, maybe there is > an easy way I cannot see. If anyone can tell me how do this I would really > appreciate it (if anyone has a photo showing how this is done that would be > great). > > Thanks > > Rob > > > I did it by grabbing the offending material with a very fine and long pair of forceps and pulling it out. At the time I was quite annoyed and had other more pressing things on my todo list and that was, in the way, and I needed that drive working. No disassembly short of removing the cover. FYI: the head positioner has very low torque so any sticky will trap the head. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 23 11:58:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 17:58:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <201005222134.o4MLYYAL016982@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at May 22, 10 02:34:34 pm Message-ID: > > > > > > Who wrote Amiga-OS? > > > > > > > > IIRC it was based on Tripos, which came from Dr Martin Richards at > > > > Cambridge University... I really must get Tripos running on one of my > > > > PDP11s sometime.... > > > > > > You are correct. Dr Richards ported Tripos into a machine-independent > > > BCPL representation called Cintpos. It will run on most systems, including > > > x86 and PowerPC. > > > > Tripos was also written in BCPL, or at least much of it was. I have the > > sources, and the sources for the BCPL compiler (and guess what that's > > written in...) As I said, one day I must get it running on the PDP11 > > again (which is one of the machines it originally ran on). > > I think you misunderstand me. The special bit about Cintpos isn't that it's > BCPL, it's that the BCPL compilers he maintains compile to a bytecode and > this is machine-independent. Yes, I think I have the Cintcode BCPL compiler somehwere. My (obvious) plan, when I get a tuit [1[ is to modify the sourves of the BCPL compiler fo the PDP11 to compile under the Cintcode compiler so that I end up with a PC-hosted cross-compiler producing PDP11 code. And then use that to attempt to build PDP11 Tripos. I prefer to run classic OSes on classic hardware if at all possible... [1] Sinec I have a lathe, the shape of tuit is not inmportat, I can easily machine one to a circuit cross-section. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 23 12:19:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 18:19:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at May 23, 10 10:34:14 am Message-ID: > Though isn't SECAM essentially PAL but with the colour encoded slightly That statement makes no sense to me at all. PAL is a colour encoding method. SECAM is a totally different colour encoding method. So how SECAM can be essentially PAL with the colour encoded slightly differneetly is beyond me. I think I know what you are thinking. You are assuming that PAL video signals are 625 lines interlaced, 50Hz vertical, And so are SECAM signals. Well, AFAIK, that is not a _requirement_. It's certainly not a requrirement for PAL (there are at least 2 525 line/60Hz PAL standards in the lists I have). > differently. e.g. if you feed a SECAM signal to a PAL display you get a > picture that is black and white. If the scan rates are the same you probably would do. All the boradcast colour systems are designed so that they are both-ways compaitble with the related monochrome signal (a monochrome display will corectly display a colour signal as a grey scale, a colour display will likewise display a monochrome signal). There are, I beleive, at least 2 versions of SECAM used too. Philips did various decoder chips for these at one time, but my data books are 20 years old now, and I guess things have moved on... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 23 12:23:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 18:23:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at May 23, 10 04:40:15 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrot= > e: > > Bulgaria in those days wouldn't have been PAL. =A0They would have been us= > ing > > SECAM. > > Alright - same question applies then: is converting SECAM->NTSC > necessary to run one of these machines in the US (assuming I don't > find a companion monitor for it?) The machine will run without a monitor. You just won't be able to see what it is doing :-) (sorry, couldn't resist). More seriously, if you havea composite-input mono monitor that can handle 50 Hz vertical (and most can), it should be able to display a monochrome picture from this Apple clone. I don;t know how much of a clone it is, if I had wanted ot do something like this, I would have left the mainboard circuitry as it was (NTSC encoding essentially comes 'for free' in the Apple ][ video circuit) and made a colour encoder card to go in slot 7 (rather like the better-known PAL and RGB video output cards). If that's the case you might well be able to get something approaching NTSC colour out of it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 23 12:33:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 18:33:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 23, 10 12:03:44 pm Message-ID: > > On 22/05/2010 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Possibly. One of my main moans about BP is that they routinely ignore > > enthusisats. They don't seem to believe you can be self-taught and > > clueful. We can start the field-servoid war again if you like... > > That really isn't true of TNMoC (though as has been pointed out that's > not the same organisation as the Bletchley Park Trust). TNMoC is run How odes the Computer Conservation Society fit into this? One of my moans was that there were/are too many organisations involved and you could never find out who was responsible for what. When I joined the CCS, I fileld in a form which asked me to list up to 4 (why only 4)?) computers that I had expeirence of either as a designer, a service engineer, or a user. They didn't seem to realise that I could have experience of machines from being a hardware ethusiast, (which is distinct from a 'user'). They also didn't appreciate that such knowledge could change with time (when I joined, I'd never seen an HP9800 series calculator, now, even if I say so myself I suyspect there are few people outside HP who have worked on them to the level I have). Anyway, I listed my 4 machines. Some yeras later I discovered they were having problems with one of the machines I'd listed, but they didn't seem to have bothered to contact me. No they did not refuse help, and were happy to get information (and the odd spare part) from em. But it does point to a somewhat clueless organisation. I am not sure what the solution to this is. I (and others) are not going to rite in every month with a list of hte machines, new and old, that we've worked on. Perhaps they need an active mailing list... > almost entirely by volunteers, and I've not known them refuse any help I have, but it wasn;t my help. My parents offered to help sort and catalouge docuemntation (both were research chemists, neither had any particuar knowldge of computing, but could read titles, etc). This wa refused. Mind you, one thing that put me off volunterring at BP was that I couldn't access their documenation. I had to work from my own manuals and printsets if I had them, otherwise I was working blind. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 23 12:38:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 18:38:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner Message-ID: In case you've not already heard, I have just been told that Martin Gardner has passed away. He was, of course, responsible for many excellent books of mathematical puzzles. He had a defintie knack of being able to make something simple enough to understand but still keeping enough mathematics there to be worthwhile. The world is certainly a poorer place without him. He certainly inspered me to love mathemaitcs. Had I not read his books some years ago, my life would have been very different. I don't think I am exagerating if I say that without his books I would not have passed A-level mathematics... True story : Many years ago I was given a couple of his books as a Newtonsday presnet. Once contained a chapter on base -2 arithmeatic. I spent the next day or so designing a base -2 full-adder circuit and soldering it up. Never found any practical use for it, but... -tony From spedraja at ono.com Sun May 23 13:22:45 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 20:22:45 +0200 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Rest in Peace. Of course It's sad for me. I can't remember the first time that I'd read one of his mathematical puzzles. He, Isaac Asimov and Arthur C.Clarke were some of my first adult reads. Sergio 2010/5/23 Tony Duell > In case you've not already heard, I have just been told that Martin > Gardner has passed away. > > He was, of course, responsible for many excellent books of mathematical > puzzles. He had a defintie knack of being able to make something simple > enough to understand but still keeping enough mathematics there to be > worthwhile. > > The world is certainly a poorer place without him. > > He certainly inspered me to love mathemaitcs. Had I not read his books > some years ago, my life would have been very different. I don't think I > am exagerating if I say that without his books I would not have passed > A-level mathematics... > > True story : Many years ago I was given a couple of his books as a > Newtonsday presnet. Once contained a chapter on base -2 arithmeatic. I > spent the next day or so designing a base -2 full-adder circuit and > soldering it up. Never found any practical use for it, but... > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 23 13:24:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 11:24:18 -0700 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? Message-ID: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com> Just wondering if anyone has the pinout for the NCR 53C400 SCSI controller (68 pin PLCC). FWIW, I have the "NCR 5380 53C80 SCSI Interface Chip Design Manual" as well as the NCR "SCSI Engineering Notebook", if anyone cares to form a collection of information for early NCR SCSI chips. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 23 13:27:15 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 13:27:15 -0500 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, May 23, 2010 at 12:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > In case you've not already heard, I have just been told that Martin > Gardner has passed away. > > He was, of course, responsible for many excellent books of mathematical > puzzles. He had a defintie knack of being able to make something simple > enough to understand but still keeping enough mathematics there to be > worthwhile. His "Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science" was the first work of Skepticism I read, shortly after high school. I had no idea about his other works. Sounds like a long life well-lived. -j From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 23 16:27:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 14:27:10 -0700 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BF93B3E.13517.1521F63@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 May 2010 at 11:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just wondering if anyone has the pinout for the NCR 53C400 SCSI > controller (68 pin PLCC). Found it on www.Datasheet4u.com. I'd give a PDF download link, but the site uses a PHP mechanism to make sure that no one can link to the datasheets, so you have to start from here: http://www.datasheet4u.com/download.php?id=549218 --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 23 16:37:47 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 17:37:47 -0400 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: <4BF93B3E.13517.1521F63@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com> <4BF93B3E.13517.1521F63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201005231737.47439.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 23 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 May 2010 at 11:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Just wondering if anyone has the pinout for the NCR 53C400 SCSI > > controller (68 pin PLCC). > > Found it on www.Datasheet4u.com. I'd give a PDF download link, but > the site uses a PHP mechanism to make sure that no one can link to > the datasheets, so you have to start from here: > > http://www.datasheet4u.com/download.php?id=549218 Wow, their watermarking is really annoying. Do they need to put *4* watermarks on each page? This is actually bad enough that it gets in the way of reading the sheet. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 23 17:31:31 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 23:31:31 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF9ACC3.5060106@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/05/2010 18:33, Tony Duell wrote: >> That really isn't true of TNMoC (though as has been pointed out that's >> not the same organisation as the Bletchley Park Trust). TNMoC is run > > How odes the Computer Conservation Society fit into this? One of my moans > was that there were/are too many organisations involved and you could > never find out who was responsible for what. I don't know for sure, but AFAIUI CCS is not related to either BP or TNMoC. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 23 17:57:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 15:57:51 -0700 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: <201005231737.47439.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BF93B3E.13517.1521F63@cclist.sydex.com>, <201005231737.47439.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4BF9507F.27851.1A52451@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 May 2010 at 17:37, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Wow, their watermarking is really annoying. Do they need to put *4* > watermarks on each page? This is actually bad enough that it gets in > the way of reading the sheet. Fortunately, one can edit the PDF, or simply extract the page images and toss the watermark images. --Chuck From james at machineroom.info Sun May 23 08:57:28 2010 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 14:57:28 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4BF93448.4060109@machineroom.info> Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 23/05/2010 10:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Jason T wrote: >>> (And to those with experience with Eastern Euro machines, what is >>> needed to run them on US power? Just a 220v->110v converter, or does >>> the video have to be processed from PAL->NTSC as well?) >> >> Bulgaria in those days wouldn't have been PAL. They would have been >> using SECAM. > > Though isn't SECAM essentially PAL but with the colour encoded > slightly differently. e.g. if you feed a SECAM signal to a PAL display > you get a picture that is black and white. > > Cheers. > > Phill. > > Absolutely. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun May 23 14:33:03 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 14:33:03 -0500 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BF982EF.6040101@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: > In case you've not already heard, I have just been told that Martin > Gardner has passed away. Wow, I'm really sorry to hear that. > > He was, of course, responsible for many excellent books of mathematical > puzzles. He had a defintie knack of being able to make something simple > enough to understand but still keeping enough mathematics there to be > worthwhile. > > The world is certainly a poorer place without him. Indeed. > > He certainly inspered me to love mathemaitcs. Had I not read his books > some years ago, my life would have been very different. I don't think I > am exagerating if I say that without his books I would not have passed > A-level mathematics... > > True story : Many years ago I was given a couple of his books as a > Newtonsday presnet. Once contained a chapter on base -2 arithmeatic. I > spent the next day or so designing a base -2 full-adder circuit and > soldering it up. Never found any practical use for it, but... You could always solder up a computer around it. :-) > > -tony > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 23 23:24:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 00:24:11 -0400 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BF9FF6B.6020107@neurotica.com> On 5/23/10 2:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Just wondering if anyone has the pinout for the NCR 53C400 SCSI > controller (68 pin PLCC). I don't, but I see you've found it. New project? > FWIW, I have the "NCR 5380 53C80 SCSI Interface Chip Design Manual" > as well as the NCR "SCSI Engineering Notebook", if anyone cares to > form a collection of information for early NCR SCSI chips. Hmm! I'd not mind giving some shelf space to those if they're looking for a home. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon May 24 00:03:48 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 06:03:48 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <36CF4FD197034A9FA987ABE1179C0FFE@Edicons.local> from"RodSmallwood" at May 21, 10 08:13:37 am Message-ID: Hi All I have been interested in the response to my comments. Its clear that the event title was at lest misleading and possibility a misrepresentation. That said I may well still attend. However this situation has brought up a number of import issues. There's a suspicion that the world of computer collecting may be divided into to two groups. I'll define the two as the 'Restorers' those who put systems back into working order and the 'Preservers' who clean the outside and display non working items. A bit like dead animals pickled in formaldehyde and displayed in clear jars. Worse yet they tend to display only part of their hoard. I can't accept that storing systems out of sight in an unserviceable condition is justified. I can honestly say that every system I have powers up to some extent and most boot. Machine Misers who exhibit a small number of mostly non-working systems and try to charge the general public to look at items they do not understand are just trying to get others to fund their hobby. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 21 May 2010 20:30 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > > > Hi > > After studying the publicity it would appear that the VCF-UK is simply > another in a series of events organized by Bletchley Park themselves. I > suspect that a lot of what you might see is already there. Note that the > show is sub-titled "A history of computing in the UK" The only non-uk > reference appears to be to Amiga. Likewise the speaker list is mainly UK > biased. Having looked at the appropriate web pages, I somewhat agree with you. I have serious reservations about the organisation of this event. I hadn't realised it was actually organised by Bletchley Park -- having discovered this, there is _no way_ I would waste my time attending. I hope this desn't sound like sour grapes. It appears that they have no clue about the sort of things that private collectors get up to, and the sort of people who they really should be catering for. It appears to be public show. Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of us sharing our knowledge and interest with everyone, but equally, having to explain for the 10th time in an many minutes that, no, this machine does not run Windows gets boring fast. I think back to the very successful HPCC conference in 2007. Although members of the public were welcome to atttend (I think you had to book in advance), it was a very techncial event, If you hadn't a clue about A-level (high school) mathematics, or simple electronics, or things like that you would not have got anything out of it. And that's how I feel about a VCF-type event. It should be a place for fellow enthuiasts to talk about and demonstrate the machines we all love. If others are interested, fine. But it should be pitched at a level that assumes everyone will at least know what machine code is, what a flip-flop is, etc. Some things struck me instantly. The default space for a private collector is 1m*2m. That is nowehre near large enough. I could fill that area with a collection of _handheld_ computers, and that's a minor part of my collection. I think just about any reasonable classic micro set up (keyboard, storage, monitor possibly a printer) with a sheet of text (in a large font) saying what it is and why it's interesting would occupy more than that space. And as for a minicomputer, well... There is no mention of power. Will people be able to power up their private collections? If so, how much power per 'stand'. Note that 13A BS1363 sockets doesn't tell you anything. It may well be a total of 30A or less for the entire room. Which is again nowhere near enough. And what about safety? There is a slight risk of electrical failure, metal cases becoming live, etc./ What is going to be done about that? Or do the organisers (as I suspect) regard classic computers as pieces of art, not to be powered up? I found some curious statements for the flea market (or whatever you want to call it). 'No PCs' What is a PC? Do they really believe that the IBM5150 is not a significant vintage machine? And then 'No memory modules over 64K'. Is that bits, bytes, or words? If the first, I have some 96Kbit core emmeory modules in the PDP8/e on my desk. Surely _that_ is a vintage computer. If, as I suspect, it means 'bytes' then how many of the follwoing machines are not vintage : HP87, HP9000/200 series, HP Intergral, any Unibus or Qbus PDP11, any VAX, Whitechapel MG1, PERQ (any model), etc, etc, etc. I believe memory PCBs of > 64K byutes were available for all of those. And then there is the question of security. I don;t think anyone could be ecpected to man their stand for the entire day without the odd break. How do you ensure that stuff doesn't go walkabout? It would also appear that if you are looking after your own collection you wouldn't be able ot go to the talks or the flea market. I have one regret. One of my dreams was to be present at a true classic computer enthusiasts meeting. That is, a room where a number of us turn up with our own machines, discus them, exchange tips and tricks, and so on. A room with ample power. Of course the public should be admitted, but as I said earlier, it would remain a technical event. My regret is that this is not going to happen now -- ever. The style of VCF-UK seems to have been set. But I truely wish that VCF-UK is a success. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 24 00:18:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 22:18:36 -0700 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: <4BF9FF6B.6020107@neurotica.com> References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BF9FF6B.6020107@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BF9A9BC.17988.301BD0A@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2010 at 0:24, Dave McGuire wrote: > Hmm! I'd not mind giving some shelf space to those if they're > looking for a home. I'll probably just pass them on to Al if he'd like to post them for the public weal. The "notebook" concerns itself with the 53c80, 53c81 (differential version of the '80), 5385 and 5386. Mostly a collection of papers and state diagrams. The 5380 design manual is far more useful; it even has a 6502 sample program to talk to one. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon May 24 04:08:25 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 06:08:25 -0300 Subject: Spectravideo compumate References: Message-ID: <044601cafb22$e3727770$8dbc61bd@portajara> >I didn't realize someone had made a computer/keyboard interface for > the atari 2600. And this is not the only one! I remember at least three different designs made (?) in Brazil... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon May 24 04:13:05 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 06:13:05 -0300 Subject: Spectravideo compumate References: <4BF88F21.9020207@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <044701cafb22$e5946d10$8dbc61bd@portajara> > Yup, they were the only company to get a keyboard add-on out for the > 2600... Nooo... :) This one was made by Dynacom (Brazil): http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-143147542-transforme-seu-atari-em-um-micro-teclado-basic-keyboard-veja-_JM In this page, you can see the "Dactar-Comp": http://www.atari.com.br/historia/index.html There was another (brazilian) model, I cannot find the proper link right now :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 24 08:46:22 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 09:46:22 -0400 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: <4BF9A9BC.17988.301BD0A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com> <4BF9FF6B.6020107@neurotica.com> <4BF9A9BC.17988.301BD0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/24/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll probably just pass them on to Al if he'd like to post them for > the public weal. The "notebook" concerns itself with the 53c80, > 53c81 (differential version of the '80), 5385 and 5386. Mostly a > collection of papers and state diagrams. The 5380 design manual is > far more useful; it even has a 6502 sample program to talk to one. That sounds cool. I have a few examples of 5380 implementations (uVAX2K, Amiga, ISA, 68K Mac...) but I don't think I have one on a 6502. That would be interesting to look over. -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 24 09:37:48 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 10:37:48 -0400 Subject: Spectravideo compumate In-Reply-To: <044701cafb22$e5946d10$8dbc61bd@portajara> References: <4BF88F21.9020207@atarimuseum.com> <044701cafb22$e5946d10$8dbc61bd@portajara> Message-ID: <4BFA8F3C.5090408@atarimuseum.com> The Dynacom doesn't really count its just 2 keypad controllers in a single plastic case, the Atari cx-50 keypad controllers were the original, so thats not a computer. I've never seen the Dactar-Comp, but Dactar in general did nothing more then make knock off clones, so I would think they most likely were probably going to remarket someone elses product under their look/name. Others were the Atari Graduate: http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/2600/a3000.html The Entex Piggyback and the Unitronics Expander: http://gamesmuseum.pixesthesia.com/history/gen2/2600/2600comp.html Curt Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Yup, they were the only company to get a keyboard add-on out for the >> 2600... > > Nooo... :) > This one was made by Dynacom (Brazil): > > http://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB-143147542-transforme-seu-atari-em-um-micro-teclado-basic-keyboard-veja-_JM > > > In this page, you can see the "Dactar-Comp": > http://www.atari.com.br/historia/index.html > > There was another (brazilian) model, I cannot find the proper link > right now :) > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 24 09:41:34 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 07:41:34 -0700 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com> <4BF9FF6B.6020107@neurotica.com> <4BF9A9BC.17988.301BD0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BFA901E.9060308@bitsavers.org> On 5/24/10 6:46 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 5/24/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'll probably just pass them on to Al if he'd like to post them for >> the public weal. I have a bunch queued up, I'll see about getting them on line. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon May 24 10:20:46 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 16:20:46 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Well I investigated TNMoC... I read through the web site and looked at the pictures. The text was a lot of waffle about how wonderful the forty good people are and please send us more money so we can talk more about ourselves. I'm sure their heating bills are very low as there's plenty of hot air already available! Three so called galleries... The first gallery held three large systems claimed to be operational. No sign of the operators they should have had to run them so assumed not working. The second held a mixture of very common consumer type systems from the 70's & 80's. The working ones appear to have been dumped in the middle and the rest scattered around the walls on racks. At least group by manufacturer and age FGS! Letting people just play with restored systems is as bad as not restoring them at all. The "forty good and true people" should be demonstrating what the systems could do. (From behind a suitable barrier of course) And if heaven forbid! They can't, well rambling is a good hobby. And the last one contains a Colossus rebuild (for BPT I assume) Talk, waffle and hype will never make up for a lack of basic knowledge. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: 23 May 2010 12:04 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? On 22/05/2010 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > Possibly. One of my main moans about BP is that they routinely ignore > enthusisats. They don't seem to believe you can be self-taught and > clueful. We can start the field-servoid war again if you like... That really isn't true of TNMoC (though as has been pointed out that's not the same organisation as the Bletchley Park Trust). TNMoC is run almost entirely by volunteers, and I've not known them refuse any help offered. Which is why I volunteered to help at VCF; that and talking to them (and Rich and Ian and others from this list) at the DEC Legacy event. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon May 24 10:31:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 11:31:31 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > Talk, waffle and hype will never make up for a lack of basic knowledge. Fuck off. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 24 10:50:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 08:50:56 -0700 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BF9A9BC.17988.301BD0A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BFA3DF0.15862.213B53@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2010 at 9:46, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That sounds cool. I have a few examples of 5380 implementations > (uVAX2K, Amiga, ISA, 68K Mac...) but I don't think I have one on a > 6502. That would be interesting to look over. The 53C400 datasheet was an eye-opener. When I grabbed a Trantor T130 card, I was surprised to find that it was a very wierd bird indeed. The 53C400 can decode all 20 bits of an 8-bit ISA address, provides for 8 address ranges, as well as handshake for DMA and IRQ and EPROM chip select. Basically, to do an 8 bit ISA controller, you need only an LS245, a 2764 EPROM (if you want to boot with it) and the 53C400. Access is all memory-mapped I/O. The T130 takes this and turns it on its head with two PALs, making the 53C400 I/O port mapped (at least partially). It's a needlessly convoluted design. I wonder if the intention was to emulate an older 5380 design. In reality, there's no reason that a 53C400 design needs to be any more complicated than a Seagate ST01 or Future Domain TMC850 design--and I suspect that the two latter controllers are just variations on the NCR design. --Chuck From doc at vaxen.net Mon May 24 11:14:48 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 11:14:48 -0500 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BFAA5F8.3040209@vaxen.net> RodSmallwood wrote: > Well I investigated TNMoC... > > I read through the web site and looked at the pictures. The text was a lot > of waffle about how wonderful the forty good people are and please send us > more money so we can talk more about ourselves. I'm sure their heating bills > are very low as there's plenty of hot air already available! > > > Three so called galleries... > > > Talk, waffle and hype will never make up for a lack of basic knowledge. Yeah, Rod, you're right. They should just pave Bletchley Park and build a mall. I might point out that nobody in his/her right mind calls browsing an organization's website an "investigation". Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 24 11:52:24 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 12:52:24 -0400 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: <4BFA3DF0.15862.213B53@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com> <4BF9A9BC.17988.301BD0A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFA3DF0.15862.213B53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 5/24/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 May 2010 at 9:46, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> That sounds cool. I have a few examples of 5380 implementations >> (uVAX2K, Amiga, ISA, 68K Mac...)... > > The 53C400 datasheet was an eye-opener. When I grabbed a Trantor > T130 card, I was surprised to find that it was a very wierd bird > indeed. The 53C400 can decode all 20 bits of an 8-bit ISA address, > provides for 8 address ranges, as well as handshake for DMA and IRQ > and EPROM chip select. Basically, to do an 8 bit ISA controller, you > need only an LS245, a 2764 EPROM (if you want to boot with it) and > the 53C400. Access is all memory-mapped I/O. Neat. > The T130 takes this and turns it on its head with two PALs, making > the 53C400 I/O port mapped (at least partially). It's a needlessly > convoluted design. I wonder if the intention was to emulate an older > 5380 design. It's likely. I have a T128 that came with my original NEC CDR-72 drive from DAK (that happens to have a boot ROM, so I have a bootable 8-bit SCSI interface for 8-bit PCs!) I can imagine that the T-130 was made to superficially resemble the T-128, at least from either a driver or boot ROM architecture standpoint (especially the memory mapped vs I/O mapped part). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 24 11:55:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 12:55:37 -0400 Subject: NCR 53C400 pinout? In-Reply-To: <4BF9A9BC.17988.301BD0A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BF91062.6421.AAB54B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BF9FF6B.6020107@neurotica.com> <4BF9A9BC.17988.301BD0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BFAAF89.2040307@neurotica.com> On 5/24/10 1:18 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Hmm! I'd not mind giving some shelf space to those if they're >> looking for a home. > > I'll probably just pass them on to Al if he'd like to post them for > the public weal. Sounds good. Personally, in this case I'm interested in the info, not necessarily the books themselves. > The "notebook" concerns itself with the 53c80, > 53c81 (differential version of the '80), 5385 and 5386. Mostly a > collection of papers and state diagrams. The 5380 design manual is > far more useful; it even has a 6502 sample program to talk to one. Excellent! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 24 11:54:45 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 09:54:45 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe References: Message-ID: <4BFAAF55.B3837F4A@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Ya know, I have the equipment to do that, except the piezo transducer that > > > > drives the needle in the wax recorder is cracked. > > > > > > Piezo transducer? To do this properly you have to use an electromagnetic > > > driver for recording and a carbon microphone for reproduction. Anything > > > else is cheating. > > > > .. To do it properly, only acoustic energy is permitted, no electricity allowed. > > I wouild love to know how you're going to charge and discharge the > capacitors in the DRAM chips of an Apple //e without usimg electricity :-) Non-sequitur. The discussion target was the old recording technology, not the modern half (Apple //e) of the scenario. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 24 12:19:44 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 18:19:44 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phill Harvey-Smith" To: Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:34 AM Subject: Re: Pravetz 82 > On 23/05/2010 10:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Jason T wrote: > >> (And to those with experience with Eastern Euro machines, what is > >> needed to run them on US power? Just a 220v->110v converter, or does > >> the video have to be processed from PAL->NTSC as well?) > > > > Bulgaria in those days wouldn't have been PAL. They would have been > > using SECAM. > > Though isn't SECAM essentially PAL but with the colour encoded slightly > differently. e.g. if you feed a SECAM signal to a PAL display you get a > picture that is black and white. > I haven't at the PAL vs. SECAM vs. NTSC stats for several years, but I do believe whilst that may be true, SECAM has a slightly different resolution to PAL. Which countries (other than France) use SECAM? I know UK and Australia use PAL and NTSC is used by Japan and USA. Is there a map somewhere showing which countries use(d) which? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From halarewich at gmail.com Mon May 24 13:36:08 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 11:36:08 -0700 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: from wikipedia tifwiw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg On 5/24/10, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phill Harvey-Smith" > To: > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:34 AM > Subject: Re: Pravetz 82 > > > > On 23/05/2010 10:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > Jason T wrote: > > >> (And to those with experience with Eastern Euro machines, what is > > >> needed to run them on US power? Just a 220v->110v converter, or does > > >> the video have to be processed from PAL->NTSC as well?) > > > > > > Bulgaria in those days wouldn't have been PAL. They would have been > > > using SECAM. > > > > Though isn't SECAM essentially PAL but with the colour encoded slightly > > differently. e.g. if you feed a SECAM signal to a PAL display you get a > > picture that is black and white. > > > > I haven't at the PAL vs. SECAM vs. NTSC stats for several years, but I do > believe whilst that may be true, SECAM has a slightly different resolution > to PAL. > Which countries (other than France) use SECAM? I know UK and Australia use > PAL and NTSC is used by Japan and USA. Is there a map somewhere showing > which countries use(d) which? > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon May 24 13:59:38 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 14:59:38 -0400 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BFACC9A.7040407@gmail.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > I haven't at the PAL vs. SECAM vs. NTSC stats for several years, but I do > believe whilst that may be true, SECAM has a slightly different resolution > to PAL. > Which countries (other than France) use SECAM? I know UK and Australia use > PAL and NTSC is used by Japan and USA. Is there a map somewhere showing > which countries use(d) which? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg Peace... Sridhar From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 24 14:21:50 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 20:21:50 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <009301cafb76$5db24f80$1916ee80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RodSmallwood > Sent: 24 May 2010 16:21 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > Well I investigated TNMoC... > > I read through the web site and looked at the pictures. The text was a > lot > of waffle about how wonderful the forty good people are and please send > us > more money so we can talk more about ourselves. I'm sure their heating > bills > are very low as there's plenty of hot air already available! > > > Three so called galleries... > > The first gallery held three large systems claimed to be operational. > No sign of the operators they should have had to run them so assumed > not > working. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TouLD9EOnQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPioENtAHuY More results here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=national+museum+of+computing&aq= f I know they have created a new one recently demoing the PDP11 based system used at the UK Air Traffic Control centre until a few years ago, but they do not seem to have published it yet. > The second held a mixture of very common consumer type systems from the > 70's > & 80's. The working ones appear to have been dumped in the middle and > the > rest scattered around the walls on racks. At least group by > manufacturer and > age FGS! > > Letting people just play with restored systems is as bad as not > restoring > them at all. The "forty good and true people" should be demonstrating > what > the systems could do. (From behind a suitable barrier of course) And if > heaven forbid! They can't, well rambling is a good hobby. > > And the last one contains a Colossus rebuild (for BPT I assume) > > Talk, waffle and hype will never make up for a lack of basic knowledge. > > > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 23 May 2010 12:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > On 22/05/2010 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Possibly. One of my main moans about BP is that they routinely ignore > > enthusisats. They don't seem to believe you can be self-taught and > > clueful. We can start the field-servoid war again if you like... > > That really isn't true of TNMoC (though as has been pointed out that's > not the same organisation as the Bletchley Park Trust). TNMoC is run > almost entirely by volunteers, and I've not known them refuse any help > offered. Which is why I volunteered to help at VCF; that and talking > to > them (and Rich and Ian and others from this list) at the DEC Legacy > event. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 24 14:34:37 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 12:34:37 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Have you ever been there? Or do you craft such attacks as works of pure fiction? I've been there. Your criticism is unwarranted and, as far as I can tell, baseless, other than perhaps an unnecessarily harshly stated opinion of the quality of their web presence. Your assumptions are likewise without logic or meaningful premise, for example "No sign of the operators they should have had to run them so assumed not working." When students tour our exhibit floor, I don't have them include me in the photos they take of our running restorations. Many of the volunteers do serve as docents to guide the public through the exhibits. Why would you infer otherwise? And why "behind a suitable barrier"? I'd rather get hands ON these systems - with suitable guidance, "of course." What did they do to tick you off? The only thing I can infer from your uninformed rant is that you have some sort of personal agenda against TNMOC. I think they're fine people doing a good job - and yes, one of their tasks has to be fundraising. I don't understand people who don't get that. These folks have more than a couple of VAXstations in their basement: it's an impressive collection that covers a lot of ground, both historically and physically. Just their power bill must be a fearsome thing.... -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RodSmallwood > Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 8:21 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > Well I investigated TNMoC... > > I read through the web site and looked at the pictures. The text was a > lot > of waffle about how wonderful the forty good people are and please send > us > more money so we can talk more about ourselves. I'm sure their heating > bills > are very low as there's plenty of hot air already available! > > > Three so called galleries... > > The first gallery held three large systems claimed to be operational. > No sign of the operators they should have had to run them so assumed > not > working. > > The second held a mixture of very common consumer type systems from the > 70's > & 80's. The working ones appear to have been dumped in the middle and > the > rest scattered around the walls on racks. At least group by > manufacturer and > age FGS! > > Letting people just play with restored systems is as bad as not > restoring > them at all. The "forty good and true people" should be demonstrating > what > the systems could do. (From behind a suitable barrier of course) And if > heaven forbid! They can't, well rambling is a good hobby. > > And the last one contains a Colossus rebuild (for BPT I assume) > > Talk, waffle and hype will never make up for a lack of basic knowledge. > > > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 23 May 2010 12:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > On 22/05/2010 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Possibly. One of my main moans about BP is that they routinely ignore > > enthusisats. They don't seem to believe you can be self-taught and > > clueful. We can start the field-servoid war again if you like... > > That really isn't true of TNMoC (though as has been pointed out that's > not the same organisation as the Bletchley Park Trust). TNMoC is run > almost entirely by volunteers, and I've not known them refuse any help > offered. Which is why I volunteered to help at VCF; that and talking > to > them (and Rich and Ian and others from this list) at the DEC Legacy > event. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 24 14:40:22 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 13:40:22 -0600 Subject: PLATO@50 at Computer History Museum Message-ID: Anyone else going to this? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 24 14:52:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 20:52:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "RodSmallwood" at May 24, 10 06:03:48 am Message-ID: > > Hi All > > I have been interested in the response to my comments. Its clear > that the event title was at lest misleading and possibility a > misrepresentation. I think that's going a bit far. It is clearly a vintage computer event. I don't think anyone could claim otherwise. However, from what I've heard from talking to people who've attended the VCF in the States or in Germany, it appears it will be a somewhat different sort of event. I do have sufficient reservations about the style of the event and who it appears to be aimed at that I will not be attending. I do hope the evenit is a success, though. > That said I may well still attend. However this situation has brought up a That is entirely up to you. > number of import issues. > > There's a suspicion that the world of computer collecting may be divided > into to two groups. I'll define the two as the 'Restorers' those who put > systems back into working order and the 'Preservers' who clean the outside I've been know to refer to the latter as 'stamp collectors', particularly if they want to own every cosmetic version of a particular machine (but don't care about the internal changes). I can give a classic example of that. The HP80 financial calculator. The normal collector's guides give all sorts of cosmetic variations. What none of them point out is that there are 2 very different logic boards used. The onlder one has 7 ROM chip dice mounted in a hybrid module. The later one has 2 conventional DIL chips for the DOMs (each has 4 times the storage of each of thr original ROMs). That to me is a much more significant change... > and display non working items. A bit like dead animals pickled in > formaldehyde and displayed in clear jars. Worse yet they tend to display > only part of their hoard. I can't accept that storing systems out of sight > in an unserviceable condition is justified. Alas I am guilty of that. The reason is that I've not had time to restore all my machines yet. Many times I've been able to get an interesting (to me) machine and if I'd waited it wouldn't still be avaiable. So I store tit unitl I get time to work on it. But my intnetion is to have all my machines in working condition in the end. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 24 15:04:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:04:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "RodSmallwood" at May 24, 10 04:20:46 pm Message-ID: > > Well I investigated TNMoC... > > I read through the web site and looked at the pictures. The text was a lot > of waffle about how wonderful the forty good people are and please send us > more money so we can talk more about ourselves. I'm sure their heating bills > are very low as there's plenty of hot air already available! > > > Three so called galleries... > > The first gallery held three large systems claimed to be operational. > No sign of the operators they should have had to run them so assumed not > working. I think that's a little unfair. I would claim an 'operational classic computer' is one that will work as the manufactuer intended if tured on, given the approparite toggling/button pressing to boot it, etc. > The second held a mixture of very common consumer type systems from the 70's > & 80's. The working ones appear to have been dumped in the middle and the > rest scattered around the walls on racks. At least group by manufacturer and > age FGS! All I can say is it was like that when I voluteered at BP. With a couple of twists. Firstly, there were no spare parts (not even common things like fuses) kept in stock. And secondly there was no budget to go and buy such parts. So if you wanted a part you took it from the nearest machine (!). Secondly, the policy, as docmented in some of the explanitory texts, was that when a machine was donated it was plugged in and turend on to see if it worked. I think you know my views on that. It's one thing for a non-knowledgable e-bya seller to turn on an old machine to he can sell it as working (if it does) and get a higher price. But a muesum should take rather more care than that! > Letting people just play with restored systems is as bad as not restoring > them at all. The "forty good and true people" should be demonstrating what That is one of my reservations about the VCF. It would applear that if a private collector taks a machine along, the public are going to be able to try to use it. Now, it's one thing to allow a fellow enthusiast to play with a classic machine. They will know how to treat it. Not to hit the keyboard hard. Not to stick things in the cooling slots. And so on. But I for one do not want a totally non-knowledgable user typing on one of my machines. A related point is that (for me anyeay) seeing inside the machine is intersting. Now everyone here knos not to stick their fingers inside a powered-up computer unless they know exactly what they are doing. But the public don't. What if Joe Bloggs sticks his finger on a live part? The obvious thing is to prevent machines being run in such a state, which masively reduces the educational value of the VCF, and indeed a computer museum in general. > the systems could do. (From behind a suitable barrier of course) And if > heaven forbid! They can't, well rambling is a good hobby. > > And the last one contains a Colossus rebuild (for BPT I assume) > > Talk, waffle and hype will never make up for a lack of basic knowledge. And while I do not claim to be especially knowledgable, I feel I know a little about some classic computers. And alientating such people (it's not just me, I've got a number of freinds who feel likewise) is not generally a good idea. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 24 15:05:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:05:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 24, 10 11:31:31 am Message-ID: > > > Talk, waffle and hype will never make up for a lack of basic knowledge. > > Fuck off. I think that says it all... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 24 14:38:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 20:38:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: <4BF982EF.6040101@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at May 23, 10 02:33:03 pm Message-ID: > > True story : Many years ago I was given a couple of his books as a > > Newtonsday presnet. Once contained a chapter on base -2 arithmeatic. I > > spent the next day or so designing a base -2 full-adder circuit and > > soldering it up. Never found any practical use for it, but... > You could always solder up a computer around it. :-) I was always planning to.... Base -2 has some interesting features. Obviously you can represent all +ve and -ve numbers in it. Since -1(10) = 11(-2), a 'negate' operation is performed by shifting the number left one bit and adding it (using a base -2 adder) to the original number. The full adder has 4 inputs (all of the same 'weight') and 3 outputs (sum, carry to tyhe next bit, carry to the next-but-1 bit). It's a positional notation so shift-and-add multiply (and prsumably shift-and-subtract division) work in the obvious way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 24 15:07:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:07:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BFAAF55.B3837F4A@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 24, 10 09:54:45 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Ya know, I have the equipment to do that, except the piezo transducer that > > > > > drives the needle in the wax recorder is cracked. > > > > > > > > Piezo transducer? To do this properly you have to use an electromagnetic > > > > driver for recording and a carbon microphone for reproduction. Anything > > > > else is cheating. > > > > > > .. To do it properly, only acoustic energy is permitted, no electricity allowed. > > > > I wouild love to know how you're going to charge and discharge the > > capacitors in the DRAM chips of an Apple //e without usimg electricity :-) > > Non-sequitur. The discussion target was the old recording technology, not the > modern half (Apple //e) of the scenario. Oh, I see. I though we were still talking about loading software into the Apple... My original commnet (using a carbon microphone) was intended to imply coupling that microphone to the stylus of the cylinder player and using the change in resistance of the carbon granule assembly to transfer data into the computer... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 24 14:40:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 20:40:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BF9ACC3.5060106@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 23, 10 11:31:31 pm Message-ID: > > How odes the Computer Conservation Society fit into this? One of my moans > > was that there were/are too many organisations involved and you could > > never find out who was responsible for what. > > I don't know for sure, but AFAIUI CCS is not related to either BP or TNMoC. As I said, there are too many organisations involved... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 24 15:12:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:12:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <009301cafb76$5db24f80$1916ee80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 24, 10 08:21:50 pm Message-ID: > I know they have created a new one recently demoing the PDP11 based system > used at the UK Air Traffic Control centre until a few years ago, but they do > not seem to have published it yet. FWIW, the write-up of the 'restoration' of that machine in Computer Resurraection was quickly retitled by some of my friends 'What not to do with a PDP11' And for all it was written up in 'Computer Resurraction; which seems to be related ot the CCS, and for all when I joined the CCS I listed the PDP11 as one of the mahcines I had knowledge of, no questions ever came my way. So I am wondering what the point of lisitng the machines i had knowledge of was... -tony From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon May 24 15:16:35 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 13:16:35 -0700 Subject: PLATO@50 at Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I can get away from work on the 3rd, then I'm going to go. Mark On Mon, May 24, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Richard wrote: > Anyone else going to this? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 24 15:22:55 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 13:22:55 -0700 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:38 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner > > In case you've not already heard, I have just been told that Martin > Gardner has passed away. > > He was, of course, responsible for many excellent books of mathematical > puzzles. He had a defintie knack of being able to make something simple > enough to understand but still keeping enough mathematics there to be > worthwhile. > > The world is certainly a poorer place without him. > > He certainly inspered me to love mathemaitcs. Had I not read his books > some years ago, my life would have been very different. I don't think I > am exagerating if I say that without his books I would not have passed > A-level mathematics... > > True story : Many years ago I was given a couple of his books as a > Newtonsday presnet. Once contained a chapter on base -2 arithmeatic. I > spent the next day or so designing a base -2 full-adder circuit and > soldering it up. Never found any practical use for it, but... > > -tony I remember reading his "Amateur Scientist" column in Scientific American, before that magazine turned into populist mush. And when I say 'reading' I mean poring over each word as though I was reading God's Cliffs Notes. I learned a lot about the underlying principles for each of his experimental constructs because, although he was careful to make his projects accessible, they weren't QUITE accessible enough for me (one of two children of a divorced single parent). So I read, and studied, and dreamed... and grew up a geek. Thank you, Mr. Gardner. Between you, Robert Heinlein and Arthur Clarke, I never had a chance. :-) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 24 15:30:36 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:30:36 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFAE1EC.6080204@philpem.me.uk> On 24/05/10 21:04, Tony Duell wrote: > A related point is that (for me anyeay) seeing inside the machine is > intersting. Now everyone here knos not to stick their fingers inside a > powered-up computer unless they know exactly what they are doing. But the > public don't. What if Joe Bloggs sticks his finger on a live part? This is what Perspex covers are for. Show off the innards, but keep the fools away from the live parts. Or put cardboard covers over the live parts (complete with "DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE" sticker) and leave the rest open. And then of course there are the ever-present "Please do not touch" signs... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spedraja at ono.com Mon May 24 15:39:45 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 22:39:45 +0200 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2010/5/24 Ian King > Thank you, Mr. Gardner. Between you, Robert Heinlein and Arthur Clarke, I > never had a chance. :-) > Well said. And I forgot to mention Heinlein in my first post. Regards Sergio From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 24 15:58:59 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 16:58:59 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201005241658.59122.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 24 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > That is one of my reservations about the VCF. It would applear that > if a private collector taks a machine along, the public are going to > be able to try to use it. > > Now, it's one thing to allow a fellow enthusiast to play with a > classic machine. They will know how to treat it. Not to hit the > keyboard hard. Not to stick things in the cooling slots. And so on. > But I for one do not want a totally non-knowledgable user typing on > one of my machines. At all of the VCF/Midwest events I ran, I never had any problem with any of the public doing anything to harm exhibits, and the exhibitors have complete control (within reason anyhow) of their own exhibit. Tony, while you may be able to conjure up ideas of how a VCF may be such a horrible place for you to be, I seriously doubt most of what you envision is true. At my last one (final VCF/MW that I'm running), I had a VAX-11/780 up and running 4.3BSD, and some pieces I wasn't using, to show a typical system, and the power may have been somewhat jerry-rigged, but for the most part everyone had a good time. The only problems I had were from fellow collectors at the show, complaining about my abilities to organize the event (which is why I have finally decided to stop running the VCF/MW). I've worked out the misunderstandings, but technical people are the main reason that I've seen a VCF type event "fail" (I'm willing to include myself in that category). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 24 17:00:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 15:00:19 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4BFAAF55.B3837F4A@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at May 24, 10 09:54:45 am, Message-ID: <4BFA9483.13754.1736B5F@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2010 at 21:07, Tony Duell wrote: > My original commnet (using a carbon microphone) was intended to imply > coupling that microphone to the stylus of the cylinder player and > using the change in resistance of the carbon granule assembly to > transfer data into the computer... Nonsense! The laser head assembly from a DVD player will do the job with much less wear of the medium. :) (There was a design note recently in one of the EE mags (EDN or Electronic Design) about measuring small distances using exactly that.) --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 24 17:14:48 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:14:48 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFAE1EC.6080204@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BFAE1EC.6080204@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BFAFA58.6060603@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/05/2010 21:30, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 24/05/10 21:04, Tony Duell wrote: >> A related point is that (for me anyeay) seeing inside the machine is >> intersting. Now everyone here knos not to stick their fingers inside a >> powered-up computer unless they know exactly what they are doing. But the >> public don't. What if Joe Bloggs sticks his finger on a live part? > > This is what Perspex covers are for. Show off the innards, but keep the > fools away from the live parts. Exactly what we do every year when we show a running PDP-8/E to first-year CompSci students. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 24 17:14:39 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:14:39 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BFAFA4F.6010307@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/05/2010 19:36, Chris Halarewich wrote: > from wikipedia tifwiw > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg AFAIR the SECAM system used in the Eastern bloc countries is slightly different from the French system, and doesn't quite interoperate -- ie still no colour if you view one system's output on the other systems receivers. >> I haven't at the PAL vs. SECAM vs. NTSC stats for several years, but I do >> believe whilst that may be true, SECAM has a slightly different resolution >> to PAL. I'm pretty sure they're the same in practice -- and in any case neither PAL nor SECAM mandate the resolution, only the colour coding. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 24 17:11:45 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:11:45 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BFAF9A1.1070506@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/05/2010 16:20, RodSmallwood wrote: > Well I investigated TNMoC... [ ... ] > Talk, waffle and hype will never make up for a lack of basic knowledge. Indeed. Plonk. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 24 17:14:45 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:14:45 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <009301cafb76$5db24f80$1916ee80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <4BF90B90.3050502@dunnington.plus.com> <009301cafb76$5db24f80$1916ee80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4BFAFA55.8080509@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/05/2010 20:21, Rob Jarratt wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TouLD9EOnQ > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPioENtAHuY > More results here: > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=national+museum+of+computing&aq= > f > I know they have created a new one recently demoing the PDP11 based system > used at the UK Air Traffic Control centre until a few years ago, but they do > not seem to have published it yet. They showed it at the DEC Legacy event, though not in final edited form. Pretty impressive, getting that system all running again. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 24 17:35:45 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 15:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BFAAF55.B3837F4A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4BFAAF55.B3837F4A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100524153427.M62748@shell.lmi.net> If the novelty is really interconnecting the oldest Apple technology with the newest, howzbout: make a blue-box that runs on the iPad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 24 17:44:08 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 18:44:08 -0400 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <20100524153427.M62748@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BFAAF55.B3837F4A@cs.ubc.ca> <20100524153427.M62748@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 5/24/10, Fred Cisin wrote: > If the novelty is really interconnecting the oldest Apple technology with > the newest, howzbout: make a blue-box that runs on the iPad That would bring things full-circle*. Think Apple would approve that app for the iStore? ;-) -ethan * (for those that don't already know) http://www.paulgraham.com/bluebox.html From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 24 19:31:28 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 17:31:28 -0700 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFB1A60.30703@brouhaha.com> Ian King wrote: > I remember reading his "Amateur Scientist" column in Scientific American, > Great column, but AFAICT it was never written by Martin Gardner. IIRC most of the Amateur Scientist columns I read were written by C.L. Strong. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 24 19:48:40 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 20:48:40 -0400 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: <4BFB1A60.30703@brouhaha.com> References: <4BFB1A60.30703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BFB1E68.1080307@neurotica.com> On 5/24/10 8:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ian King wrote: >> I remember reading his "Amateur Scientist" column in Scientific American, >> > Great column, but AFAICT it was never written by Martin Gardner. IIRC > most of the Amateur Scientist columns I read were written by C.L. Strong. Stong -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hachti at hachti.de Mon May 24 20:45:12 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 03:45:12 +0200 Subject: Bitsavers upstream? Message-ID: <4BFB2BA8.1080702@hachti.de> Hi folks, as some of you might know I'm dealing with quite a lot of documentation in paper form. From time to time I scan some docs that cannot yet be found on the web (i.e. Al's bitsavers.org). A few month ago I posted some notifications about having uploaded stuff to a temporary folder on my website. But I have no clue if it has been taken by anyone or Al Kossow. This feels a bit complicated to me. So I'd like to suggest some possibility to upload stuff to bitsavers directly. Or to a special "incoming" folder or something like that. I'd like to have an easy and reliable way to offload my stuff. Without writing emails, asking for acknowledge and all that hassle. For me personally having some kind of access via scp would be perfect. Some people might prefer ftp/sftp. I could have written this in a private email to Al but I assume that it might be sensible to have some kind of discussion around the topic. Hope you're all fine! Kind regards, Philipp From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 24 20:53:57 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 19:53:57 -0600 Subject: Bitsavers upstream? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 25 May 2010 03:45:12 +0200. <4BFB2BA8.1080702@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article <4BFB2BA8.1080702 at hachti.de>, Philipp Hachtmann writes: > A few month ago I posted some notifications about having uploaded stuff > to a temporary folder on my website. But I have no clue if it has been > taken by anyone or Al Kossow. This feels a bit complicated to me. You can monitor the bitsavers RSS feed to stay up-to-date on new additions. Ideally, submitting new documents to bitsavers is something we've talked about incorporating into manx. I'd love to work with Al on creating a mechanism by which documents could be incorporated into bitsavers, but there's more to that than just scanning and uploading. There is the legal issue of copyright to consider. Feature suggestions and discussion on manx is always welcome. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 24 21:30:20 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 19:30:20 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers upstream? In-Reply-To: <4BFB2BA8.1080702@hachti.de> References: <4BFB2BA8.1080702@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BFB363C.2040708@bitsavers.org> On 5/24/10 6:45 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > A few month ago I posted some notifications about having uploaded stuff > to a temporary folder on my website. But I have no clue if it has been > taken by anyone or Al Kossow. This feels a bit complicated to me. > I have retrieved it. I also feel strongly about a single person handling what goes up onto my web site, and how it is organized. I'm not hopeful that things will calm down for me until the new exhibit is finished early next year. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon May 24 21:49:14 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:49:14 -0500 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: <4BFB1E68.1080307@neurotica.com> References: , <4BFB1A60.30703@brouhaha.com>, <4BFB1E68.1080307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 20:48:40 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: OT : RIP Martin Gardner > > On 5/24/10 8:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Ian King wrote: > >> I remember reading his "Amateur Scientist" column in Scientific American, > >> > > Great column, but AFAICT it was never written by Martin Gardner. IIRC > > most of the Amateur Scientist columns I read were written by C.L. Strong. > > Stong > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Martin wrote 'Mathematical Recreations' in Sci Am _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon May 24 22:52:26 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 04:52:26 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: from"RodSmallwood" at May 24, 10 06:03:48 am Message-ID: <46C4AF3548A94BF09D3EDF1CB40164A6@Edicons.local> You are clearly a restorer. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 24 May 2010 20:52 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > Hi All > > I have been interested in the response to my comments. Its clear > that the event title was at lest misleading and possibility a > misrepresentation. I think that's going a bit far. It is clearly a vintage computer event. I don't think anyone could claim otherwise. However, from what I've heard from talking to people who've attended the VCF in the States or in Germany, it appears it will be a somewhat different sort of event. I do have sufficient reservations about the style of the event and who it appears to be aimed at that I will not be attending. I do hope the evenit is a success, though. > That said I may well still attend. However this situation has brought up a That is entirely up to you. > number of import issues. > > There's a suspicion that the world of computer collecting may be divided > into to two groups. I'll define the two as the 'Restorers' those who put > systems back into working order and the 'Preservers' who clean the outside I've been know to refer to the latter as 'stamp collectors', particularly if they want to own every cosmetic version of a particular machine (but don't care about the internal changes). I can give a classic example of that. The HP80 financial calculator. The normal collector's guides give all sorts of cosmetic variations. What none of them point out is that there are 2 very different logic boards used. The onlder one has 7 ROM chip dice mounted in a hybrid module. The later one has 2 conventional DIL chips for the DOMs (each has 4 times the storage of each of thr original ROMs). That to me is a much more significant change... > and display non working items. A bit like dead animals pickled in > formaldehyde and displayed in clear jars. Worse yet they tend to display > only part of their hoard. I can't accept that storing systems out of sight > in an unserviceable condition is justified. Alas I am guilty of that. The reason is that I've not had time to restore all my machines yet. Many times I've been able to get an interesting (to me) machine and if I'd waited it wouldn't still be avaiable. So I store tit unitl I get time to work on it. But my intnetion is to have all my machines in working condition in the end. -tony From hachti at hachti.de Mon May 24 22:54:00 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 05:54:00 +0200 Subject: Bitsavers upstream? In-Reply-To: <4BFB363C.2040708@bitsavers.org> References: <4BFB2BA8.1080702@hachti.de> <4BFB363C.2040708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BFB49D8.5070203@hachti.de> Dear Al, > I also feel strongly about a single person handling what goes up onto > my web site, and how it is organized. I fully agree! That's why I've asked for a controlled mechanism. Some place in your realm where stuff can be put. The basic idea is that there must be some kind of storage with some very simple rules: 1. People drop stuff into individual locations (i.e. directories). Each one can write to "his" space only. 2. People do not delete stuff from "their" incoming directory. 3. You pick up the stuff and sort it in - whenever you'll find the time. 4. You - and only you - delete stuff you've either uploaded or decided to discard. This would make it easier for all parties. That way questions like "already picked up?" and other risks of that kind are prevented. I personally could offer storage space for that purpose. Giving access to you, me, and other people who have reason to participate. I have some massively connected online space - but currently without backup. What about that? > I'm not hopeful that things will calm down for me until the new exhibit > is finished early next year. Oh, exhibit... Have to go to my museum work.... :-) BTW I'd like to have a software that helps me to easily add bookmarks to pdf files produced by my Aficio... Kind regards, Philipp From evan at snarc.net Mon May 24 23:42:20 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 00:42:20 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK Message-ID: <4BFB552C.70300@snarc.net> I didn't read any of this thread until tonight, when I read the whole thing ... and now I have a headache. :) Some thoughts: Tony wrote: >>> What benefit would there be to the rest of the classic computer community if I visited such an event Having attended five VCF events (four California, one Boston) and personally organized four more (East 3, 4, 5, and 6), I can say this with complete confidence: VCF attendees (and most exhibitors) don't attend with the attitude, "Everyone is there to see ME" -- they go with the attitude of, "I'm there to see everyone else." VCF is a * community * event. Even some of the most name-brand keynote and panel speakers at past VCFs were excited to see the rest of the show, despite them truly being brought in for others to meet. Anyone non-celebrity who thinks their personal attendance is for others' benefit -- well, such people won't be missed. Rod wrote: >>> it would appear that computer museums are groups of donation funded, unpaid volunteers That part is true. In the MARCH computer museum @ the InfoAge Science Center, here in New Jersey, we're all volunteers and our group is solely donation-funded. >>> who seek to aquire as many inanimate examples as possible. False. We're not out for quantity. We turn away quite a lot -- and so do professional well-funded museums like the CHM. Here in NJ, sometimes we do take in more examples of Computers Brand X than we really need, but usually that's because the alternative is the owner throwing it away. >>> Systems are made to work only to attract visitors and hence revenue. We make systems work for the art, education, fun, and history of it. * Of course * that also includes attracting visitors -- how is that a bad thing!? I can't speak for other museums, but we're a not-for-profit, so any "revenue" we make is solely for the purpose of operating the museum and hosting events like VCF, certainly not to line anyone's pockets. >>> The members of the groups would much rather the space was used to store even more non working equipment and keep it out of sight and accessible only to the select few. That's not only wrong, it is offensive. Small museums like ours, and big museums like CHM, have "visible storage" and frequently arrange behind-the-scenes tours -- expressly because we want to * show * people what we have in our collections. In our case here at MARCH, it's also because we hope the visitors will become members and help us restore ever-more systems to working condition. Pat wrote: >>> At all of the VCF/Midwest events I ran, I never had any problem with any of the public doing anything to harm exhibits, and the exhibitors have complete control (within reason anyhow) of their own exhibit. That is universally true at all U.S. VCFs, and it's true at Europe, from what Hans has told me. Sellam, not Patrick, nor myself has ever had a security problem at a VCF. Here in NJ, our security is extra-safe, because we host VCF at our own venue -- so we're the ones who lock the doors at the end of the day. Will wrote: >>> I would encourage all our UK and European members to give this show a chance. Go. You will have fun. Go to any VCF you can. Yes !!! >>> Go to the MARCH VCFEast, so you can pick a fight with me. But take it outside, please. :) No fighting in our buildings! >>> There seem to be some assholes ... but they can be ignored, and fun will be had by all attending. I wish I could be there +1 Tony wrote, in another reply: >>> from what I've heard from talking to people who've attended the VCF in the States or in Germany, it appears it will be a somewhat different sort of event. I haven't heard that. >>> I do have sufficient reservations about ... who it appears to be aimed at that I will not be attending. It's aimed at all the same kinds of people who attend every other VCF. you're saying you won't attend because you don't like "those" kind of nerds? >>> I do hope the event is a success, though. Gee ... thanks. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon May 24 23:43:24 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 05:43:24 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: from"RodSmallwood" at May 24, 10 06:03:48 am Message-ID: Hi Tony el al. Well it's interesting to see how much of what I suspected you have confirmed from direct personal experience. On a more positive note I have a great deal of admiration for what TNMoC and the others are trying to do. The way they going about it, however leaves a lot to be desired. There is a huge amount of knowledge amongst the members of just this list. Has any one been approached by any of the preservation/restoration groups for information or assistance? If somebody says I have just restored such and such a system and I am a restoration group with the same system but not working I'd be calling the guy pretty quick. Waiting for people to volunteer will not get you the right people at the right time. If you have a system that needs fixing then find somebody who has experience and will help. Don't waste their time with travel to BP or anywhere else. Get it in a vehicle and deliver it and collect it when done. The two major issues most restorers have are space and transport. They would save more systems if they had the right transport and space to work. So if you want to be a working computer museum get yourself a big van and some hefty volunteers. Then make friends with known restorers. Horse trade parts they may need for their work on your systems. Don't be afraid to exchange items in storage for something a collector ahs and you would add to your display. The old 'the donor wouldn't like it' excuse is nonsense. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 24 May 2010 20:52 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > Hi All > > I have been interested in the response to my comments. Its clear > that the event title was at lest misleading and possibility a > misrepresentation. I think that's going a bit far. It is clearly a vintage computer event. I don't think anyone could claim otherwise. However, from what I've heard from talking to people who've attended the VCF in the States or in Germany, it appears it will be a somewhat different sort of event. I do have sufficient reservations about the style of the event and who it appears to be aimed at that I will not be attending. I do hope the evenit is a success, though. > That said I may well still attend. However this situation has brought up a That is entirely up to you. > number of import issues. > > There's a suspicion that the world of computer collecting may be divided > into to two groups. I'll define the two as the 'Restorers' those who put > systems back into working order and the 'Preservers' who clean the outside I've been know to refer to the latter as 'stamp collectors', particularly if they want to own every cosmetic version of a particular machine (but don't care about the internal changes). I can give a classic example of that. The HP80 financial calculator. The normal collector's guides give all sorts of cosmetic variations. What none of them point out is that there are 2 very different logic boards used. The onlder one has 7 ROM chip dice mounted in a hybrid module. The later one has 2 conventional DIL chips for the DOMs (each has 4 times the storage of each of thr original ROMs). That to me is a much more significant change... > and display non working items. A bit like dead animals pickled in > formaldehyde and displayed in clear jars. Worse yet they tend to display > only part of their hoard. I can't accept that storing systems out of sight > in an unserviceable condition is justified. Alas I am guilty of that. The reason is that I've not had time to restore all my machines yet. Many times I've been able to get an interesting (to me) machine and if I'd waited it wouldn't still be avaiable. So I store tit unitl I get time to work on it. But my intnetion is to have all my machines in working condition in the end. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 25 04:07:02 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 10:07:02 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Reading these comments about "proper collectors" versus those who are not and are thus clearly below contempt has been very interesting. I don't regard myself as a collector - I lack the money or the space. I do have a small collection of interesting 1980s kit, though, which I enjoy getting running, playing with, learning a bit about and so on. I like learning about them, talking about them, reading about them, discussing them and so on. But I don't solder. I don't make cables. I never conduct board-level repairs. I might swap add-in cards when needed or in extremis things like motherboards or CPUs. I have no knowledge of compenent-level electronics nor any great interest. I'm a software man myself, really, that's what interests me. Similarly, with my motorbikes and bicycles, of which I have a small and ever-changing collection, I pay pros to keep them running well for me. I hate getting dirty & scraping my knuckles repairing them, and why should I? The idea that, for example, a group, club or society should consult its members for help, and if it doesn't, then it's flawed, is quite bizarre to me. I'm a bit bothered and, yes, even slightly offended by the implied comment that I'm not a REAL enthusiast or collector or aficionado or anything because I didn't wire-wrap my own CPU when I was 6, have never used punched-cards and am not familiar with the assembly language of 23 1960s minicomputers. To judge others because they are not the same as oneself is bigotry, plain and simple. It is the same root cause as those of sexism, racism and so on, and frankly, it's offensive in any context. If one is a fan or expert of something, and other such fans are organizing a rare get-together in one's area, to denigrate it as "the wrong sort of get-together" or say that they are the "wrong sort" of fans, or that they don't do it right, or anything like that, is small-minded, petty, childish and unpleasant. It lessens the speaker in my eyes and frankly any adult who behaves like that should be thoroughly bloody ashamed of themselves, no matter how severe their Aspeger's Syndrome or whatever. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From andy at flirble.org Tue May 25 08:03:20 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:03:20 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100525130320.GA51613@plum.flirble.org> On (21:04 24/05/10), Tony Duell wrote: <> > All I can say is it was like that when I voluteered at BP. With a couple > of twists. Firstly, there were no spare parts (not even common things > like fuses) kept in stock. And secondly there was no budget to go and > buy such parts. So if you wanted a part you took it from the nearest > machine (!). Secondly, the policy, as docmented in some of the > explanitory texts, was that when a machine was donated it was plugged in > and turend on to see if it worked. I think you know my views on that. > It's one thing for a non-knowledgable e-bya seller to turn on an old > machine to he can sell it as working (if it does) and get a higher price. > But a muesum should take rather more care than that! Did you offer to help raise funds for missing parts? Did you offer to improve their documented policy and process? Seems to me that you didn't like what you saw, assumed *somebody else* was in charge and that they had "got it all wrong". Do you know what's better than pointing out problems? Offering solutions. You seem to make the assumption that there were malicious Powers That Be conspiring against you and your firmly held ideals. I'd be happy to wager that everyone was involved in a learning process. That there were no big pots of money being poorly allocated, and spent on executive lunches when things like fuses were desperately needed. I have to say that this is all conjecture on my part. But I've all too often seen people gripe about perceived shortcomings whilst making absolutely zero effort to be part of the solution. As I say, I could be wrong, but I cannot imagine any of the volunteers I've met being ungrateful of offers of advice and help. And that Bletchley Park and TNMOC is still there is nothing short of amazing, and I for one would much rather people swapped fuses between machines than the whole lot was dispersed as the buildings were flattened to extend the surrounding housing estates which are keen to swallow up the land. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From andy at flirble.org Tue May 25 08:11:08 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:11:08 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BF9ACC3.5060106@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20100525131108.GB51613@plum.flirble.org> On (20:40 24/05/10), Tony Duell wrote: > > > How odes the Computer Conservation Society fit into this? One of my moans > > > was that there were/are too many organisations involved and you could > > > never find out who was responsible for what. > > > > I don't know for sure, but AFAIUI CCS is not related to either BP or TNMoC. > > As I said, there are too many organisations involved... Your uncompromisingly monotheistic view on classic computing organisations and methods is nothing short of frightening. A. -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Tue May 25 08:30:09 2010 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 13:30:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AW: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... In-Reply-To: References: <877073.84585.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <233546.11382.qm@web29111.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi Glen, thanks a million for having performed the tests with that combination of controller and tape drive ! As soon as I've some free time, I'll verify my settings according to yours and try a new set of tests. Best regards, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Glen Slick An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 20. Mai 2010, 9:09:01 Uhr Betreff: Re: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 9:17 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Lately, I hooked a M2442AC (which is basically the M2442A with an extra buffer) to a QT13-type coupler in a microVAX, in order to save some tape contents to disk and CD-ROM. > > Therefore, I launched the NVRAM-internal diagnostics of the Emulex-controller. The manual of the controller points out the NVRAM-settings for some types of drives, but not for drives made by Fujitsu :( > The diagnostic tests, which can be run out of the diagnostics menu, all fail (except for "BOT/rewind"- and "host memory DMA"-tests) with the same error description: > > ** ERROR ** Blank tape read > I hooked my QT13 up to my M2444AC and installed the QT13 in a BA213 with a KA660 and ran the QT13 diagnostics in system console mode. I had a scratch tape mounted in the M2444AC and all of the diagnostics completed successfully, which took 20-30 minutes. The captured console output is listed below. The QT13 was configured with the following switch settings at power up. SW-1 was toggled from OFF to ON and back to OFF just prior to the "ST 80" console command. SW1-1 OPEN(OFF) away from PCB SW1-2 CLOSED(ON) near to PCB SW1-3 CLOSED(ON) near to PCB SW1-4 CLOSED(ON) near to PCB SW2-1 OFF SW2-2 OFF SW2-3 OFF SW2-4 OFF SW2-5 ON SW2-6 OFF SW2-7 ON SW2-8 OFF KA660-A V4.9, VMB 2.12 1) Dansk 2) Deutsch (Deutschland/?sterreich) 3) Deutsch (Schweiz) 4) English (United Kingdom) 5) English (United States/Canada) 6) Espa?ol 7) Fran?ais (Canada) 8) Fran?ais (France/Belgique) 9) Fran?ais (Suisse) 10) Italiano 11) Nederlands 12) Norsk 13) Portugu?s 14) Suomi 15) Svenska (1..15): 5 Performing normal system tests. 95..94..93..92..91..90..89..88..87..86..85..84..83..82..81..80.. 79..78..77..76..75..74..73..72..71..70..69..68..67..66..65..64.. 63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..55..54..53..52..51..50..49..48.. 47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32.. 31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16.. 15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07..06..05..04..03.. Tests completed. >>>SHOW QBUS Scan of Qbus I/O Space -20001468 (772150) = 0000 RQDX3/KDA50/RRD50/RQC25/KFQSA-DISK -2000146A (772152) = 0B20 -20001940 (774500) = 0000 TQK50/TQK70/TU81E/RV20/KFQSA-TAPE -20001942 (774502) = 8051 -20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR Scan of Qbus Memory Space >>>D/P/W 20001F40 20 >>>D/P/L 20088000 80000000 >>>D/P/L 20088004 80000001 >>>ST 80 ***** ***** EMULEX CORPORATION * * 3545 Harbor Boulevard ***** * ***** P.O. Box 6725 * * Costa Mesa, CA, 92626 ***** ***** (714) 662-5600 E M U L E X QT13/14 Firmware Revision K Copyright 1988 EMULEX CORPORATION All rights reserved ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unit is Offline CSR Address = 174500 oct ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Video Display or Hardcopy Terminal (V/H,def=H) : H MAIN MENU ========= A - All tests R - Retry limit value N - NOVRAM Maintenance T - Test selection Menu S - Display Switch settings Q - Quick test on positioning and erase X - Exit Maintenance mode after resetting switches CTRL/C - Returns you to the previous level CTRL/U - Deletes current input if no entered Select Function (def=A) : S Functions selected by indicated switch settings ----------------------------------------------- Switch 1 Off On _______ | | | [ ] | - 1 --- QT13/14 Tape coupler reset switch, Unreadable Hardware switch | [ *] | - 2 --- Diagnostic mode | [ *] | - 3 --- Host console communications | [ *] | - 4 --- uVAX host | | ------- Functions selected by indicated switch settings ----------------------------------------------- Switch 2 Off On _______ | | | [* ] | - 1 -| | [* ] | - 2 -|- Address = 174500 oct | [* ] | - 3 -| | [* ] | - 4 --- TMSCP | [ *] | - 5 --- Enable 22 bit addressing | [ ] | - 6 --- WDS Trailing edge select, Unreadable Hardware switch | [ ] | - 7 --- WDS Leading edge select, Unreadable Hardware switch | [ ] | - 8 --- Not used, Unreadable Hardware switch | | ------- MAIN MENU ========= A - All tests R - Retry limit value N - NOVRAM Maintenance T - Test selection Menu S - Display Switch settings Q - Quick test on positioning and erase X - Exit Maintenance mode after resetting switches CTRL/C - Returns you to the previous level CTRL/U - Deletes current input if no entered Select Function (def=A) : N Drive type, 0=Start-Stop, 1=Streamer (0-1,def=1 dec) : On the fly commands (Y/N,def=Y) : Enable data busy timeout delay (Y/N,def=Y) : Remote density (Y/N,def=Y) : CDC tape drive (Y/N,def=Y) : Use IDEN line to select remote density (Y/N,def=N) : IDEN line true selects high density (Y/N,def=N) : Adaptive DMA (Y/N,def=Y) : Blank Tape Timeout value, in seconds (1-60,def=5 dec) : Max retry count for tape errors (0-10,def=8 dec) : uSec Delay between DMA bursts (2/4,def=4) : Enable write data prefill (Y/N,def=N) : Adaptive DMA threshold (1-7,def=4 dec) : Tape Drive Speed thousands of bytes/second (0-65535,def=200 dec) : Support 800 BPI Density (Y/N,def=N) : Support 1600 BPI Density (Y/N,def=Y) : Support 6250 BPI Density (Y/N,def=Y) : Modify ? (Y/N,def=N) : MAIN MENU ========= A - All tests R - Retry limit value N - NOVRAM Maintenance T - Test selection Menu S - Display Switch settings Q - Quick test on positioning and erase X - Exit Maintenance mode after resetting switches CTRL/C - Returns you to the previous level CTRL/U - Deletes current input if no entered Select Function (def=A) : A Ensure tape loaded and at BOT Press to continue...[0K * WARNING *, Use scratch tape only, data on tape will be lost Are you sure ? (Y/N,def=N) : Y Enter number of loops to execute (0-255,def=1 dec) : 1 Retry limit of 10 --> Start of pass 1 BOT/Rewind test Write/Read test File mark test Space forward/reverse test Positioning test Erase test Host memory DMA test --> End of pass 1 Executing pass 1 Test Summary: Total # of errors = 0 (0 Hard, 0 Soft, 0 Device, 0 DMA) From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 25 09:35:35 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 07:35:35 -0700 Subject: Bitsavers upstream? In-Reply-To: <4BFB49D8.5070203@hachti.de> References: <4BFB2BA8.1080702@hachti.de> <4BFB363C.2040708@bitsavers.org> <4BFB49D8.5070203@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BFBE037.3050606@bitsavers.org> On 5/24/10 8:54 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Dear Al, > >> I also feel strongly about a single person handling what goes up onto >> my web site, and how it is organized. > I fully agree! That's why I've asked for a controlled mechanism. Some > place in your realm where stuff can be put. > Since I have limited access to the machine that bitsavers is hosted on, it would have to be somewhere else. I also don't have the cycles to maintain a bunch of individual accounts for uploaders. The handful of people who send me things generally just do it via email, but dealing with it in a timely manner as well as checking the quality of submissions is problematic. I was thinking about the statistics this morning, and less than 1% of the contents of bitsavers has come from external donations. If Richard feels like picking this up as a project, that's fine with me, but I can't deal with this right now. Of more use would be getting people involved who would like to help with the postprocessing backlog. I just checked, and there are roughly 8000 documents that need to be cleaned up, page checked and pdf/OCRed From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 25 09:59:59 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 15:59:59 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFBE5EF.20107@philpem.me.uk> On 25/05/10 10:07, Liam Proven wrote: > Reading these comments about "proper collectors" versus those who are > not and are thus clearly below contempt has been very interesting. It's starting to sound a lot like the Real Programmers vs Quiche-Eaters argument... (and in that particular argument, I don't care whether people consider me a "real programmer" or not -- that's their opinion and they're entitled to it) > I don't regard myself as a collector - I lack the money or the space. > I do have a small collection of interesting 1980s kit, though, which I > enjoy getting running, playing with, learning a bit about and so on. I > like learning about them, talking about them, reading about them, > discussing them and so on. I'm pretty much the same -- I keep machines around for technical or personal reasons: 1) My Sinclair/Amstrad Spectrum +2A. The first programmable computer I ever owned. I'll keep that thing around until the bitter end, simply because of the sentimental value attached to it... 2) My Acorn BBC Master. First computer I ever used -- not this specific one, but another of that type. Again, sentimental value, and it's an incredibly expandable machine. Also based on a CPU I consider to be one of the nicest ever designed (the 6502). > I'm a bit bothered and, yes, even slightly offended by the implied > comment that I'm not a REAL enthusiast or collector or aficionado or > anything because I didn't wire-wrap my own CPU when I was 6, have > never used punched-cards and am not familiar with the assembly > language of 23 1960s minicomputers. Again: Real Programmers vs Quiche-Eaters. "Real Programmers write their code in binary with no assembler mnemonics to speak of".... That's not a Real Programmer, that's a crazy lunatic who doesn't care that his code is going to be maintainable as soon as he forgets how it works (in general, about 2 weeks after he wrote it)! If I knew this thread was going to turn into yet another flamefest, I wouldn't have bothered starting it... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wpointon at earthlink.net Sun May 23 21:33:46 2010 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (william pointon) Date: Sun, 23 May 2010 22:33:46 -0400 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21693DC7-3226-45C6-8BB1-3E19BF6DE5AA@earthlink.net> it is indeed sad - i read his column many years in scientific american magazine and several of his books On 23 May, 2010, at 13:38, Tony Duell wrote: > In case you've not already heard, I have just been told that Martin > Gardner has passed away. > > He was, of course, responsible for many excellent books of > mathematical > puzzles. He had a defintie knack of being able to make something > simple > enough to understand but still keeping enough mathematics there to be > worthwhile. > > The world is certainly a poorer place without him. > > He certainly inspered me to love mathemaitcs. Had I not read his books > some years ago, my life would have been very different. I don't > think I > am exagerating if I say that without his books I would not have passed > A-level mathematics... > > True story : Many years ago I was given a couple of his books as a > Newtonsday presnet. Once contained a chapter on base -2 arithmeatic. I > spent the next day or so designing a base -2 full-adder circuit and > soldering it up. Never found any practical use for it, but... > > -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 25 11:36:37 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 09:36:37 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe References: Message-ID: <4BFBFC95.A02EA3BF@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ya know, I have the equipment to do that, except the piezo transducer that > > > > > > drives the needle in the wax recorder is cracked. > > > > > > > > > > Piezo transducer? To do this properly you have to use an electromagnetic > > > > > driver for recording and a carbon microphone for reproduction. Anything > > > > > else is cheating. > > > > > > > > .. To do it properly, only acoustic energy is permitted, no electricity allowed. > > > > > > I wouild love to know how you're going to charge and discharge the > > > capacitors in the DRAM chips of an Apple //e without usimg electricity :-) > > > > Non-sequitur. The discussion target was the old recording technology, not the > > modern half (Apple //e) of the scenario. > > Oh, I see. I though we were still talking about loading software into the > Apple... We were, as was indicated in my response. From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Tue May 25 11:45:57 2010 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 18:45:57 +0200 Subject: IAS / DECnet-IAS wanted References: Message-ID: <665OLABMW1UYKerxkZuLQWwqwm4SYI5QebQiBN1p1DX@akmail> Any version of IAS (except V3.0) and DECnet-IAS wanted! Please help! Regards, Ulli From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue May 25 11:46:43 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 12:46:43 -0400 Subject: Cray-1 resurfaces in pieces on eBay =?windows-1252?Q?=95_The_?= =?windows-1252?Q?Register?= Message-ID: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/24/cray_1_gate_module_ebay/ I'm kinda surprised nobody bid on this: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CPU-module-Cray-1-Serial-No-1-1st-supercomputer-/260600179087?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL&hash=item3cacfb298f Item number: 260600179087 Item location: Didcot, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom Maybe someone from Bletchly should try contacting the seller about putting it on display? And here's the other: http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Rare-CRAY-1-GATE-CPU-Board-2-planes-LAST-ONE-/140408191311?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b0faf94f#ht_2336wt_1092 Item number: 140408191311 Item location: Jupiter, Florida, United States Then again, they probably aren't worth that much, are they; since they are only a small part of the Cray.... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 25 12:13:00 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 18:13:00 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com><4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BFAFA4F.6010307@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <009c01cafc39$44343cd0$e85f5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 11:14 PM Subject: Re: Pravetz 82 > On 24/05/2010 19:36, Chris Halarewich wrote: > > from wikipedia tifwiw > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg > > AFAIR the SECAM system used in the Eastern bloc countries is slightly > different from the French system, and doesn't quite interoperate -- ie > still no colour if you view one system's output on the other systems > receivers. > > >> I haven't at the PAL vs. SECAM vs. NTSC stats for several years, but I do > >> believe whilst that may be true, SECAM has a slightly different resolution > >> to PAL. > > I'm pretty sure they're the same in practice -- and in any case neither > PAL nor SECAM mandate the resolution, only the colour coding. > Really? The *cough* website I looked at listed specific resolutions for each (including NTSC). Perhaps the site had some misleading information? (don't ask for an URL, it's been too long) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue May 25 13:39:14 2010 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:39:14 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BEDE424.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1274812754.8876.47.camel@entasis> On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 01:00 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Just out of curiosity, is anyone planning to attend the UK Vintage > Computer Festival this year? The one that's running on the 19th and 20th > of June at Bletchley Park? If anyone needs further impetus to attend, the latest TNMOC newsletter tells us that David Ahl has joined the existing speaker line-up: http://www.tnmoc.org/vcf-gb/speakers.aspx See you there! -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 25 15:16:50 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 15:16:50 -0500 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK References: Message-ID: Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 00:42:20 -0400 From: Evan Koblentz Subject: re: Anyone off to VCF-UK > I didn't read any of this thread until tonight, when I read the whole >thing ... and now I have a headache. :) -- Maybe from the mental effort of finding new ways to twist other peoples' words and reply as judgementally and rudely as possible? -- >>Tony wrote: >>> What benefit would there be to the rest of the classic >>computer community if I visited such an event >...VCF attendees (and most exhibitors) don't attend with the attitude, >"Everyone is there to see ME" -- they go with the attitude of, "I'm there >to see everyone else." ... Anyone non-celebrity who thinks their >personal attendance is for others' benefit -- well, such people won't >be missed. -- I don't think Tony said or suggested anything of the sort; apparently his reason for attending would not be to "see everyone else," but to see (and perhaps share some of his) interesting computer items. But you value only the knowledge, experience, etc. of "celebrities"? I suspect that if everyone who attends these affairs primarily in order to give others the possibility to see and/or learn about their interesting items or experience stayed away then they would be sorely missed. Apparently others on this list *would* have valued his attendance and were even prepared to pay his way, and I think Tony's just humbly asking why it's so important to these folks to persuade him to go. -- >Tony wrote, ... >> I do have sufficient reservations about ... who it appears to be >>aimed at that I will not be attending. >It's aimed at all the same kinds of people who attend every other VCF. >you're saying you won't attend because you don't like "those" kind of >nerds? -- He said nothing of the sort; he said that in his judgement it is not aimed at somone like him any more than a dog show or exhibition of the latest sex toys might be, and he is choosing not to spend his time and money (especially others' money) in order to attend. He might be wrong of course and if he had attended he might well have enjoyed it, but it is his choice after all; why does that offend and upset so many people? -- >>> I do hope the event is a success, though. >Gee ... thanks. -- Most ungracious, but hardly surprising considering the source... mike From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 25 15:46:52 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 15:46:52 -0500 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK References: Message-ID: <872E18AA71FA4AE994ED0E47BE881A6D@vl420mt> Oops, looks like in my previous post I attributed one of the quotes to Tony instead of Rod and although it doesn't really change anything, apologies anyway if either of them was offended; perhaps one or both might indeed have enjoyed a dog show or sex toy exhibition... ;-) mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 13:24:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:24:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFAE1EC.6080204@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 24, 10 09:30:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 24/05/10 21:04, Tony Duell wrote: > > A related point is that (for me anyeay) seeing inside the machine is > > intersting. Now everyone here knos not to stick their fingers inside a > > powered-up computer unless they know exactly what they are doing. But the > > public don't. What if Joe Bloggs sticks his finger on a live part? > > This is what Perspex covers are for. Show off the innards, but keep the > fools away from the live parts. Designing a perspex cover that would fit, say, an HP9100 or its plotter, that would allow me to do all the tests and demonstrations I want and still keeps j-random-public away from the mains would take a lot of work... > Or put cardboard covers over the live parts (complete with "DANGER HIGH > VOLTAGE" sticker) and leave the rest open. > > And then of course there are the ever-present "Please do not touch" signs... Whcih IMHO are useless. The clueful know not to stick their fingers in an unknown machine, the clueless probably can'r read, or if they can't think the sign doesn't apoply to them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 13:31:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:31:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <201005241658.59122.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 24, 10 04:58:59 pm Message-ID: > At all of the VCF/Midwest events I ran, I never had any problem with any > of the public doing anything to harm exhibits, and the exhibitors have > complete control (within reason anyhow) of their own exhibit. Am I correct that this is a 'dedicated' event -- that is the only thing going on is the VCF. Rather than another event on a museum site where other things are going on (whcih the VCF-UK is). The point being that in the former case you are going to get almost entirely computer enthuiasts. In the latter case you could well get people who come for other things at the museum and go to the VCF to see what it's all about. Now there;s nothing wrong in attracting new people ot the hobby, but I think it does rather change the sort of things you (as an exhibitor) could do. One time when I was volunterring at BP, I was sorting out an RK05 drive. I had it out of the slides with the cover removed. A man (who was plenty old enough to know better) said 'what's that and stuck his finger towards the power supply. If I had not physically knocked him back, he would certainly have touched a live mains connection. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 13:33:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:33:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4BFA9483.13754.1736B5F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 24, 10 03:00:19 pm Message-ID: > Nonsense! The laser head assembly from a DVD player will do the job > with much less wear of the medium. :) > > (There was a design note recently in one of the EE mags (EDN or > Electronic Design) about measuring small distances using exactly > that.) By using the in-focus signal (suitably derrived from the photodetectors) and seeing how much current you have to pass through the focus coil to have the target object in focus? I wonder if that would have the freqeucny response to read a wax cylinderr? I think it should do... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 13:35:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:35:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFAFA58.6060603@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 24, 10 11:14:48 pm Message-ID: > > This is what Perspex covers are for. Show off the innards, but keep the > > fools away from the live parts. > > Exactly what we do every year when we show a running PDP-8/E to > first-year CompSci students. I wan wondering just what is dangerous inside a working PDP8/e. Unless you have the PSU removed and opened up, all the mains is totally enclused. Quite apart from the fact that a first year studend (particularly one in a scientific or engineering subject) who sticks his fingers into a working machine deserves all he gets. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 13:40:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:40:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: <4BFB1A60.30703@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 24, 10 05:31:28 pm Message-ID: > > Ian King wrote: > > I remember reading his "Amateur Scientist" column in Scientific American, > > > Great column, but AFAICT it was never written by Martin Gardner. IIRC > most of the Amateur Scientist columns I read were written by C.L. Strong. Indeed. Martin Gardner wrote the 'Mathematical Games' column, which was replaced by Hoffstader's 'Metamagical Themas' (notice that's an anagram of mathemaitcal games) and then, IRIC by Dewdney's 'Computer Recreations' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 14:15:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 20:15:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "RodSmallwood" at May 25, 10 05:43:24 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony el al. > Well it's interesting to see how much of what I suspected you have > confirmed from direct personal experience. > > On a more positive note I have a great deal of admiration for what TNMoC and > the others are trying to do. The way they going about it, however leaves a > lot to be desired. My views entirely. Any person or organisation that is preserving classic computer can't be anything but a Good Thing. But like you I have reservations about how the THMoC are doing it. > > There is a huge amount of knowledge amongst the members of just this list. > Has any one been approached by any of the preservation/restoration groups > for information or assistance? If somebody says I have just restored such I can only speak for myself here, obviously. The only people to approach me are members of this list or members oF HPCC (who have met me face to face in genreral). > and such a system and I am a restoration group with the same system but not > working I'd be calling the guy pretty quick. > > Waiting for people to volunteer will not get you the right people at the > right time. If you have a system that needs fixing then find somebody who Particularly not if the 'right people' dont even know what's going on.. > has experience and will help. Don't waste their time with travel to BP or > anywhere else. Get it in a vehicle and deliver it and collect it when done. I was prepeared ot go to BP from time to time (on average once a month, say). I was prepared to give my time for nothing. But I was not prepared to pay to visit the museum if I was working on their machines (they can darn well let me in for free). I was not prepared to buy components myself to repair their machines (if I can provide a receipt from Maplin or Farnell or whoever for the parts I've fitted, I sepcet to be paid). And I was not prepared to play guessing games working out how the machine should work when the necessary manuals were probably in the next room but I couldn't look at them. > they may need for their work on your systems. Don't be afraid to exchange > items in storage for something a collector ahs and you would add to your > display. The old 'the donor wouldn't like it' excuse is nonsense. I would agree. In many cases (not all, I will grant you), the donoe doens't want to throw out a machine tht might be useful to somebody. They give it to the museum rather than taking it to landfill. They are not giing to object if it ends up i nthe hands of a collector in exchange for parts needed to reapir another machine at the museum. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 13:51:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:51:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <46C4AF3548A94BF09D3EDF1CB40164A6@Edicons.local> from "RodSmallwood" at May 25, 10 04:52:26 am Message-ID: > > You are clearly a restorer. I don;t think that's ever been doubted :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 14:05:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 20:05:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFB552C.70300@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at May 25, 10 00:42:20 am Message-ID: > > I didn't read any of this thread until tonight, when I read the whole > thing ... and now I have a headache. :) > > Some thoughts: > > Tony wrote: >>> What benefit would there be to the rest of the classic > computer community if I visited such an event > > Having attended five VCF events (four California, one Boston) and > personally organized four more (East 3, 4, 5, and 6), I can say this > with complete confidence: VCF attendees (and most exhibitors) don't > attend with the attitude, "Everyone is there to see ME" -- they go with That's not what I said! If I'd said ';What would _I_ get out of going to a VCF' then yes, I guess you could put that interpretation on it. But my original message asked how others would beenfit from having me there. Not the same thing at all!. In anty case, theis was a reply to a message where people were offering to pay for me to got ot the VCF. If somebody is oaying me to do something, I think it's reasonable that they should get some beenfit from it, fdirectly or indrectly ('they' meaning the person doing the paying). > the attitude of, "I'm there to see everyone else." VCF is a * community > * event. Even some of the most name-brand keynote and panel speakers at > past VCFs were excited to see the rest of the show, despite them truly That is another of my comments. I have been involved with several HPCC conferences and min-conferences over the years, which I believe are similar in concept and organisation to a VCF (it's a group of people getting togewther to show their toys, talk about them, share tips and tricks, and so on. The fact that it's HP calculators, old and new, rather than all old computers doesn't make much differece. Anyway, one continaul moan was that people who were running the event in many cases couldn;t attend the talks. And I can fully understand that. So, at the VCF-UK, if somebody is running a private collection stand, how do they get time to hear anyt/all of the talks? Who looks after their machines than? [The solution we adpoted at HPCC wouldn't work at an event where the general public were admitted] > being brought in for others to meet. Anyone non-celebrity who thinks > their personal attendance is for others' benefit -- well, such people > won't be missed. Ah, I see, SO the reason to attend a VCF is for what you can take, not what you can offer. I am darn sure I don't want to attend any event like that. But perhaps you can answer one thing. I regard this list as a sort of virtual VCF. So why do I spend time looking things up for people, making measurements on my own machines, reading manuals and working out how to diagnose a fualt and repair it. Because I am this close (indicates about 1nm) to packing it all in. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 15:08:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 21:08:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at May 25, 10 10:07:02 am Message-ID: > I don't regard myself as a collector - I lack the money or the space. > I do have a small collection of interesting 1980s kit, though, which I > enjoy getting running, playing with, learning a bit about and so on. I > like learning about them, talking about them, reading about them, > discussing them and so on. > > But I don't solder. I don't make cables. I never conduct board-level > repairs. I might swap add-in cards when needed or in extremis things > like motherboards or CPUs. I have no knowledge of compenent-level > electronics nor any great interest. I'm a software man myself, really, > that's what interests me. Fine. I do wonder why you want to run the software on the original machine rather than under emulattion, though. And how you would keep the original machine going if you don't ever want to repair it. Unfortunately, as far as I know there are no repair services for classic computers, so you virtually have to do it yourself. > > Similarly, with my motorbikes and bicycles, of which I have a small > and ever-changing collection, I pay pros to keep them running well for > me. I hate getting dirty & scraping my knuckles repairing them, and > why should I? I can think of one very good reason. Your life, and the lives of others, depends on that work being done correctly. And having seen what some car repairers -- even official dealers -- get up to, I wouldn't trust one, alas. > > The idea that, for example, a group, club or society should consult > its members for help, and if it doesn't, then it's flawed, is quite > bizarre to me. Eh? Cam you please tell me what the point of the club is then, other than to share the knowledge, experience, whatever of the members? > If one is a fan or expert of something, and other such fans are > organizing a rare get-together in one's area, to denigrate it as "the > wrong sort of get-together" or say that they are the "wrong sort" of > fans, or that they don't do it right, or anything like that, is > small-minded, petty, childish and unpleasant. It lessens the speaker But surely to decide that, for whetever reasons, you are not going to enjy the event is a good enough reason to keep away. Otherwise you may end up spoiling it for others. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 15:17:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 21:17:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100525130320.GA51613@plum.flirble.org> from "Andrew Back" at May 25, 10 02:03:20 pm Message-ID: > > All I can say is it was like that when I voluteered at BP. With a couple > > of twists. Firstly, there were no spare parts (not even common things > > like fuses) kept in stock. And secondly there was no budget to go and > > buy such parts. So if you wanted a part you took it from the nearest > > machine (!). Secondly, the policy, as docmented in some of the > > explanitory texts, was that when a machine was donated it was plugged in > > and turend on to see if it worked. I think you know my views on that. > > It's one thing for a non-knowledgable e-bya seller to turn on an old > > machine to he can sell it as working (if it does) and get a higher price. > > But a muesum should take rather more care than that! > > Did you offer to help raise funds for missing parts? Did you offer to > improve their documented policy and process? Hangf on a second. Are you seriously suggesting that I should not only be able t fix their machines and give my time freely for so doing, but should also be a fund raiser. Because I don't beleive anybody is going to be equally good in both roles. As you may have guessed by now, I am not the sort of person who is going to be good at spining a story to get donations. I'm the sort of person who's happiest with 'scope and logic analyser. One reason for having a club (or whatever you want to call it is that different people have differnt interstes and skills. And by putitng all the skills together, things get done. If I want to do everything myself, well, I've got a couple of hundred machines here to work on. > > Seems to me that you didn't like what you saw, assumed *somebody else* was > in charge and that they had "got it all wrong". > > Do you know what's better than pointing out problems? Offering solutions. > You seem to make the assumption that there were malicious Powers That Be I don not believe it was malicious. Just clueless. > conspiring against you and your firmly held ideals. I'd be happy to wager > that everyone was involved in a learning process. That there were no big > pots of money being poorly allocated, and spent on executive lunches when > things like fuses were desperately needed. I never said there were. But they were charging the public an admission fee. That money had to be used to pay various expenses, and if there wasn't enough to maintain their exhibits properly then IMHO there was a degree of mismanagement. Not fraud, I do not believe for an instant that anyone was pocekting the money, but mismanagement. And it was certainly very bad practice to just take parts from anotehr machine. Oh,m sure I do that all the time in my workshop -- but then it's my machine and I know what I've done. It's less amusing to come back to a machine in the museum after a couple of weeks, find fuses missing and nobody knows what happened to them (it's particularly unamusing when you spend an hour trying to find a fualt as a result...) -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 25 15:42:04 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 16:42:04 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BFAFA58.6060603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 5/25/10, Tony Duell wrote: > Quite apart from the fact that a first year studend (particularly one in > a scientific or engineering subject) who sticks his fingers into a > working machine deserves all he gets. Don't stick your finger behind the ear of an RK06/RK06 positioner right before removing power - your finger won't like becoming 3mm thick. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 25 15:35:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 21:35:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <009c01cafc39$44343cd0$e85f5d0a@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 25, 10 06:13:00 pm Message-ID: > > I'm pretty sure they're the same in practice -- and in any case neither > > PAL nor SECAM mandate the resolution, only the colour coding. > > > > Really? Really. Checking my somewhat old list of _broadcast_ TV systems used around the world, I can find PAL used with both 525 and 625 lines. NTSC was only used with 525 lines nad SECAM with 625. But those are the _broadcast_ standards. There is nothing to stop you making a device with RS-170 (525 lines, 60 Hz vertical) using SECAM colour encoding. Or a 625 line system using NTSC colour encoding. Or for that matter any (odd) numbr of lines that you like. > > The *cough* website I looked at listed specific resolutions for each > (including NTSC). Perhaps the site had some misleading information? (don't > ask for an URL, it's been too long) There is a lot of very good information on the web, but alas there's a lot of misleasing and downright wrong infroation out there too. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 25 15:57:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 13:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFBE5EF.20107@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BFBE5EF.20107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100525134936.O62748@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 25 May 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > If I knew this thread was going to turn into yet another flamefest, I > wouldn't have bothered starting it... . . . and I apologize for pushing Tony to go. I thought that his presence would be good for the event, and that he would enjoy it, with a little bit of help to be able to go. But, he has reasons; they are his own reasons; and they need not apply to anybody else. HOWZBOUT: This entire thread should be shelved. It can be resumed LIVE, AT VCF-UK. At that point, those who go may discuss themselves and those who don't go. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 25 16:17:40 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 22:17:40 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com> <4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk><00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <00b001cafc51$79a49460$e85f5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Thanks Chris (and Sridhar). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Halarewich" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 7:36 PM Subject: Re: Pravetz 82 > from wikipedia tifwiw > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg > > > On 5/24/10, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Phill Harvey-Smith" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2010 10:34 AM > > Subject: Re: Pravetz 82 > > > > > > > On 23/05/2010 10:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > > Jason T wrote: > > > >> (And to those with experience with Eastern Euro machines, what is > > > >> needed to run them on US power? Just a 220v->110v converter, or does > > > >> the video have to be processed from PAL->NTSC as well?) > > > > > > > > Bulgaria in those days wouldn't have been PAL. They would have been > > > > using SECAM. > > > > > > Though isn't SECAM essentially PAL but with the colour encoded slightly > > > differently. e.g. if you feed a SECAM signal to a PAL display you get a > > > picture that is black and white. > > > > > > > I haven't at the PAL vs. SECAM vs. NTSC stats for several years, but I do > > believe whilst that may be true, SECAM has a slightly different resolution > > to PAL. > > Which countries (other than France) use SECAM? I know UK and Australia use > > PAL and NTSC is used by Japan and USA. Is there a map somewhere showing > > which countries use(d) which? > > > > > > Regards, > > Andrew B > > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 25 16:39:56 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 22:39:56 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: [Replying to me] >> I don't regard myself as a collector - I lack the money or the space. >> I do have a small collection of interesting 1980s kit, though, which I >> enjoy getting running, playing with, learning a bit about and so on. I >> like learning about them, talking about them, reading about them, >> discussing them and so on. >> >> But I don't solder. I don't make cables. I never conduct board-level >> repairs. I might swap add-in cards when needed or in extremis things >> like motherboards or CPUs. I have no knowledge of compenent-level >> electronics nor any great interest. I'm a software man myself, really, >> that's what interests me. > > Fine. I do wonder why you want to run the software on the original > machine rather than under emulattion, though. I do use emulators sometimes, but it's not the same. I like the feel and the sounds and smells and so on of running real hardware, and I enjoy the feeling of using something that is a bit different, not just another x86 PC in a world with billions of the things. > And how you would keep the > original machine going if you don't ever want to repair it. > Unfortunately, as far as I know there are no repair services for classic > computers, so you virtually have to do it yourself. Frankly, I won't. If any of my kit dies, I'll try to fix it by board or major component level swaps, and if that's not enough, find some collector or something who'd want it rather than binning it. I'd ask around here and one or two other places to see if anyone had the time and skills and inclination to fix it, perhaps in exchange for a pint and a curry or anything, but I can't afford more than a token of gratitude, really. >> Similarly, with my motorbikes and bicycles, of which I have a small >> and ever-changing collection, I pay pros to keep them running well for >> me. I hate getting dirty & scraping my knuckles repairing them, and >> why should I? > > I can think of one very good reason. Your life, and the lives of others, > depends on that work being done correctly. And having seen what some car > repairers -- even official dealers -- get up to, I wouldn't trust one, alas. I get that one a lot, but usually from people who actively enjoy working on their vehicles. I detest it. I hate working with machinery, hate getting my hands dirty, and don't trust my own meagre mechanical skills. This is very hard for many an inveterate fiddler to understand, though, it seems. The few times I've tried motorcycle maintenance, I've usually got it badly wrong and done serious mechanical damage that cost many hundreds to thousands of pounds to repair. I don't even change my own oil. >> The idea that, for example, a group, club or society should consult >> its members for help, and if it doesn't, then it's flawed, is quite >> bizarre to me. > > Eh? Cam you please tell me what the point of the club is then, other than > to share the knowledge, experience, whatever of the members? Primarily, social. To meet and talk to other people who share your interests; to perhaps get a club magazine or mailing list or go to club events where you can listen to talks, meet heroes or idols, and chat about the area of interest. Most of this sort of club that I'm in - which means a dozen or so - are run by volunteers, but the committee or whatever of volunteers do everything. Members occasionally join the committee but that is the only primary way of contributing. As far as I can tell, this is the norm, this is how pretty much all of these things work. What you want seems like a different type of organization altogether; something more like the Bluebell Railway, say, which has hundreds of workers doing all manner of jobs, as if they were running a transport business, only they do it for fun. But still, it's funded by thousands and thousands of members who /don't/ work and don't contribute anything except their money. >> If one is a fan or expert of something, and other such fans are >> organizing a rare get-together in one's area, to denigrate it as "the >> wrong sort of get-together" or say that they are the "wrong sort" of >> fans, or that they don't do it right, or anything like that, is >> small-minded, petty, childish and unpleasant. It lessens the speaker > > But surely to decide that, for whetever reasons, you are not going to > enjy the event is a good enough reason to keep away. Otherwise you may > end up spoiling it for others. I guess so. But if I were you, I'd have been flattered that so many people said that they felt that you should be there and that the event would be better if you were there. As it is, your rejection of this seems rather churlish, to be honest. It's your life; nobody is compelling you to go, but if a bunch of friends offer to sub you and take you there and back, I would have thought a better response was "thanks very much indeed, that is very nice of you, but it is not my sort of event", not "pah, they're running it wrong, I'm not interested." -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 25 17:27:21 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 23:27:21 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFC4EC9.1080806@philpem.me.uk> On 25/05/10 19:24, Tony Duell wrote: >> And then of course there are the ever-present "Please do not touch" signs... > > Whcih IMHO are useless. The clueful know not to stick their fingers in an > unknown machine, the clueless probably can'r read, or if they can't think > the sign doesn't apoply to them. In which case they deserve the Darwin Award. Although sticking your fingers on a marked, live AC connector is probably not quite inventive enough to get a DA. I'd probably run the machines in question off of RCD (aka GFCI, PowerBreaker) adapters, just in case someone did find a live point that wasn't covered up... ~10mA for the few milliseconds it takes for a PowerBreaker to trip is less likely to do lasting damage than the 5-6 seconds it'd take for me to get up, grab the mains plug and yank it out of the socket (13A plugs tend to be quite stiff compared to, say, IECs, and not all machines are fitted with IEC sockets). Though if the idiot turned round and said "your machine electrocuted me" I'd be quick to point out that: 1) If it had electrocuted them, they'd be dead 2) There was a "Live parts, please don't touch, danger of death, etc." sign on the desk 3) The live parts were marked and covered, and that pushing one's finger around the cover to touch a live part of the machine wasn't an especially smart idea 4) They'd be best advised to at least make an attempt to learn from the experience and BLOODY WELL NOT DO IT AGAIN. I do not suffer fools gladly. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 25 17:22:27 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 23:22:27 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFC4DA3.3000507@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/05/2010 19:35, Tony Duell wrote: >>> This is what Perspex covers are for. Show off the innards, but keep the >>> fools away from the live parts. >> Exactly what we do every year when we show a running PDP-8/E to >> first-year CompSci students. > > I wan wondering just what is dangerous inside a working PDP8/e. Unless > you have the PSU removed and opened up, all the mains is totally > enclused. It's primarily to protect the machine from the observers, not v.v. Secondarily, it's to protect the exhibitors from H&S idiocy. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue May 25 17:30:05 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 23:30:05 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <009c01cafc39$44343cd0$e85f5d0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com><4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BFAFA4F.6010307@dunnington.plus.com> <009c01cafc39$44343cd0$e85f5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/05/2010 18:13, Andrew Burton wrote: >> I'm pretty sure they're the same in practice -- and in any case neither >> PAL nor SECAM mandate the resolution, only the colour coding. > Really? > > The *cough* website I looked at listed specific resolutions for each > (including NTSC). Perhaps the site had some misleading information? (don't > ask for an URL, it's been too long) Yes, really. NTSC, PAL, and SECAM are colo[u]r encoding methods, nothing more. They don't mandate the number of vertical lines, horizontal frequencies, etc, although certain other standards do tend to be uniquely associated with certain colour encoding standards. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 25 17:41:15 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 23:41:15 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFC520B.405@philpem.me.uk> On 25/05/10 19:35, Tony Duell wrote: > Quite apart from the fact that a first year studend (particularly one in > a scientific or engineering subject) who sticks his fingers into a > working machine deserves all he gets. Seconded. But I have to say... some of the first (and second... and third) year students on the BSc software development course I'm just finishing up probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. Two got kicked out in the first year for trying to pay other students to do their work, one tried to use Rent-a-Coder in the second year, and don't get me started on the folk who couldn't code their way out of a paper bag. More fool them when they go to their first job interview. "You have two threads running in parallel, and a single data structure which both threads must be able to read from and write to. How do you prevent data corruption in this structure when both threads try to access it at the same time?" "Uuuuhhhhh..... can I have the job now?" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 25 17:48:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 15:48:19 -0700 Subject: Using an IPad to load software onto an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: <4BFA9483.13754.1736B5F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 24, 10 03:00:19 pm, Message-ID: <4BFBF143.15596.1D66478@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 May 2010 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > By using the in-focus signal (suitably derrived from the > photodetectors) and seeing how much current you have to pass through > the focus coil to have the target object in focus? > > I wonder if that would have the freqeucny response to read a wax > cylinderr? I think it should do... Here's the design note: http://tinyurl.com/2wzeyod I wonder if, other than for establishing a baseline, it's necessary to perform any focusing during the reading process itself. It seems to me that the error output from the quadrant photodiode should provide enough of a signal. I wonder if a wax cylinder would be uniform enough in profile to use the technique, however. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 25 17:48:25 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 23:48:25 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFC4DA3.3000507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4BFC4DA3.3000507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BFC53B9.4040205@philpem.me.uk> On 25/05/10 23:22, Pete Turnbull wrote: > It's primarily to protect the machine from the observers, not v.v. :-) "Verily, thou hath but little value, but the loss of a fine PDP will be met with much woe and dejection back at the shop." (the original related to "the loss of a fine test meter" and is part of the "Battery and Inverter Electrical Ten Commandments", but I thought a paraphrased version would fit here ) > Secondarily, it's to protect the exhibitors from H&S idiocy. "Ooooo, you can't have that pen! Someone might get poked in the eye! Oh, and that pencil!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 25 17:51:36 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 18:51:36 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFC520B.405@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BFC520B.405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 6:41 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > "You have two threads running in parallel, and a single data structure which > both threads must be able to read from and write to. How do you prevent data > corruption in this structure when both threads try to access it at the same > time?" > > "Uuuuhhhhh..... can I have the job now?" There's someone I don't want writing an SMP-safe device driver for me. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Tue May 25 18:01:17 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:01:17 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFC56BD.20509@snarc.net> >> Am I correct that this is a 'dedicated' event -- that is the only thing going on is the VCF. Yes, to my knowledge, but I'm not involved in this edition. >> The point being that in the former case you are going to get almost entirely computer enthuiasts. In the latter case you could well get people who come for other things at the museum and go to the VCF to see what it's all about. Now there;s nothing wrong in attracting new people to the hobby, but I think it does rather change the sort of things you (as an exhibitor) could do. I don't see why it should change what the exhibitors bring. VCF events attract everyone from the most hard-core collectors to the most casually tech-inclined families with children. There's always something for everyone at a VCF. From evan at snarc.net Tue May 25 18:08:59 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:08:59 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFC588B.6010102@snarc.net> > But my original message asked how others would benefit from having me there. That is exactly what I * said * that you said! And my point is, if you have the attitude "What will others benefit from MY attendance," then you're looking at it all wrong. You should go to VCF for * your own * benefit. But the event certainly won't succeed or fail because of any one attendee. > If somebody is oaying me to do something, I think it's reasonable that they should get some benefit from it Or you could've been gracious and said thank you to those nice people. > one continual moan was that people who were running the event in many > cases couldn't attend the talks. At most other VCFs, lectures and special events are in the morning, while the exhibit hall is open in the afternoon -- specifically so that exhibitors can experience the whole event. I don't know what the UK guys are planning though. If they do what Sellam advises, then they'll do it right. > Ah, I see, SO the reason to attend a VCF is for what you can take, not > what you can offer. No, but your attitude seems to be all about yourself. > I am darn sure I don't want to attend any event like that. So don't go. Everyone else will still have fun, trust me. From evan at snarc.net Tue May 25 18:18:01 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:18:01 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFC5AA9.7000108@snarc.net> > I didn't read any of this thread until tonight, when I read the whole > thing ... and now I have a headache. :) > -- > Maybe from the mental effort of finding new ways to twist other > peoples' words and reply as judgementally and rudely as possible? Learn to recognize smiley faces. Geez. > I suspect that if everyone who attends these affairs primarily in > order to give others the possibility to see and/or learn about their > interesting items or experience stayed away then they would be sorely > missed. And I'm telling you that in all my VCF experience, including as the * organizer * of four very successful editions, I've found that people (attendees and exhibitors alike) go because they relish the community aspects. Sure it's fun to show off your exhibit, but most people get the most kicks from meeting their fellow collectors, etc. > I think Tony's just humbly asking why it's so important to these folks > to persuade him to go. I think Tony's being an ungrateful schmuck. > he said that in his judgement it is not aimed at somone like him any > more than a dog show or exhibition of the latest sex toys might be "There might be common, non-serious collectors present! I'm too good for THOSE people!" Ugh .... spare us. > He might be wrong of course and if he had attended he might well have > enjoyed it, but it is his choice after all; why does that offend and > upset so many people? It offends and upsets me because he's not just saying, "Thanks, but no thanks;" instead he's insulting the entire VCF franchise, all computer museums, and all people who attend such things. > Gee ... thanks. > -- > Most ungracious, but hardly surprising considering the source... Not worth replying to that comment. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 25 18:50:02 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:50:02 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFC5AA9.7000108@snarc.net> References: <4BFC5AA9.7000108@snarc.net> Message-ID: > And I'm telling you that in all my VCF experience, including as the * > organizer * of four very successful editions, I've found that people > (attendees and exhibitors alike) go because they relish the community > aspects. ?Sure it's fun to show off your exhibit, but most people get the > most kicks from meeting their fellow collectors, etc. Like any show - computers, cars, dogs, model trains, stamps, sex toys - always far more social than stuff-oriented. Sure, the "stuff" is important, but I would bet you could hold a very good VCF with *nobody* bringing *any* machines. Just make sure you get enough pizzas and beer. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 25 19:15:28 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 17:15:28 -0700 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com><4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BFAFA4F.6010307@dunnington.plus.com> <009c01cafc39$44343cd0$e85f5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Yes, really. NTSC, PAL, and SECAM are colo[u]r encoding methods, > nothing more. They don't mandate the number of vertical lines, > horizontal frequencies, etc, although certain other standards do tend > to be uniquely associated with certain colour encoding standards. > I can't speak for PAL and SECAM, but the NTSC standard most certainly does specify the number of vertical lines, interlace, and horizontal and vertical sync frequencies. It had to, since the frequencies are different than the sync frequencies used for its predecessor black-and-white system (525/30). The original NTSC standard included both 525/29.94 and 441/30 scan rates, but the latter was dropped at the last meeting of the first NTSC on 8-March-1941. While there exist other unofficial NTSC-related systems such as the so-called "NTSC-J" and "NTSC 4.43", these are NOT part of the NTSC standard. While it is possible to use NTSC-compatible color encoding with different scanning parameters, the result is *not* NTSC. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue May 25 19:22:53 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 18:22:53 -0600 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFC520B.405@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BFC520B.405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BFC69DD.60501@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: More fool them when they go to their first job interview. > > "You have two threads running in parallel, and a single data structure > which both threads must be able to read from and write to. How do you > prevent data corruption in this structure when both threads try to > access it at the same time?" I use a Jackcard (sp) loom for all my thread problems. :) > "Uuuuhhhhh..... can I have the job now?" > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 25 19:23:21 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 17:23:21 -0700 Subject: EECO PTR tech info In-Reply-To: <4BEEE111.6080505@bitsavers.org> References: <4BEEE111.6080505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BFC69F9.50007@bitsavers.org> On 5/15/10 10:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone have any tech info on EECO paper tape reader? > There are now two EECO manuals on bitsavers, and one on the Remex 9000. The Remex 9000 series is the same as the EECO MT-82 "Director". Both the Remex and EECO interface pinouts are described in the uploaded documents. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 25 19:37:18 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 17:37:18 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFC5AA9.7000108@snarc.net>, Message-ID: But make it *good* beer - or it's beneath my notice. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 4:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK > And I'm telling you that in all my VCF experience, including as the * > organizer * of four very successful editions, I've found that people > (attendees and exhibitors alike) go because they relish the community > aspects. Sure it's fun to show off your exhibit, but most people get the > most kicks from meeting their fellow collectors, etc. Like any show - computers, cars, dogs, model trains, stamps, sex toys - always far more social than stuff-oriented. Sure, the "stuff" is important, but I would bet you could hold a very good VCF with *nobody* bringing *any* machines. Just make sure you get enough pizzas and beer. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 25 20:00:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 18:00:21 -0700 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> References: , <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com>, <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 May 2010 at 17:15, Eric Smith wrote: > While there exist other unofficial NTSC-related systems such as the > so-called "NTSC-J" and "NTSC 4.43", these are NOT part of the NTSC > standard. While it is possible to use NTSC-compatible color encoding > with different scanning parameters, the result is *not* NTSC. Didn't Britain briefly experiment with a 405/25 version of NTSC? I recall seeing a 405 line BW broadcast during a trip to England in the 70s and thought it was the worst picture I'd ever seen since my family's 9" Philco set. The frame rate was quite visible to my eye. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue May 25 22:04:05 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 23:04:05 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFC8FA5.9060203@compsys.to> >Liam Proven wrote: >I do use emulators sometimes, but it's not the same. I like the feel >and the sounds and smells and so on of running real hardware, and I >enjoy the feeling of using something that is a bit different, not just >another x86 PC in a world with billions of the things. > > Are there many other hobby users of emulators, especially the PDP-11, who find that they enjoy just running the same old software as opposed the what Liam describes as his preference for "real Hardware"? Aside from the power (and often the extra air conditioning) required to run my old PDP-11/83, there is also the fact that even on a Pentium III, the CPU is about 15 times as fast and on the system I will eventually upgrade to (Intel E8200), the CPU is about 100 times as fast. In addition, a SATA II disk I/O is about 200 times the speed of an ESDI hard drives or SCSI hard drives connected to a Qbus. This is using Ersatz-11, of course, running RT-11. The other advantage with Ersatz-11 is that I no longer have SIX!!! VT100 terminals on my desk. Just by using , I have almost instant (less than 1/10 second to switch to a different terminal using the same width) access to TWELVE terminals. Since I find that I can't look at more than one screen at a time, having all the screens displayed on one monitor seems like a great solution. YES!! There is something about using the original PDP-11/83 once or twice a year, but I am very pleased when I return to what is now my normal system to have almost unlimited storage capacity with 1 TB disk drives that don't grind and squeal and the portion I actually use can be backed up in about 10 minutes. >>And how you would keep the >>original machine going if you don't ever want to repair it. >>Unfortunately, as far as I know there are no repair services for classic >>computers, so you virtually have to do it yourself. >> >>>Similarly, with my motorbikes and bicycles, of which I have a small >>>and ever-changing collection, I pay pros to keep them running well for >>>me. I hate getting dirty & scraping my knuckles repairing them, and >>>why should I? >>> >>> >>I can think of one very good reason. Your life, and the lives of others, >>depends on that work being done correctly. And having seen what some car >>repairers -- even official dealers -- get up to, I wouldn't trust one, alas. >> >I get that one a lot, but usually from people who actively enjoy >working on their vehicles. I detest it. I hate working with machinery, >hate getting my hands dirty, and don't trust my own meagre mechanical >skills. This is very hard for many an inveterate fiddler to >understand, though, it seems. > > I admit that I change my front brake disc pads, usually with about 15% of the pad left since the labour is free and the major effort is getting the wheel up and off. >>>The idea that, for example, a group, club or society should consult >>>its members for help, and if it doesn't, then it's flawed, is quite >>>bizarre to me. >>> >>> >>Eh? Cam you please tell me what the point of the club is then, other than >>to share the knowledge, experience, whatever of the members? >> >Primarily, social. To meet and talk to other people who share your >interests; to perhaps get a club magazine or mailing list or go to >club events where you can listen to talks, meet heroes or idols, and >chat about the area of interest. > >Most of this sort of club that I'm in - which means a dozen or so - >are run by volunteers, but the committee or whatever of volunteers do >everything. Members occasionally join the committee but that is the >only primary way of contributing. > > I would appreciate joining a club, but there seems to be a lack of software addicts for RT-11. Does anyone want to e-mail back and forth about RT-11 software? I will take an e-mail about RT-11 software as a YES answer. Jerome Fine From eric at brouhaha.com Tue May 25 22:21:26 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 20:21:26 -0700 Subject: television standards (was Re: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com>, <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BFC93B6.8040604@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Didn't Britain briefly experiment with a 405/25 version of NTSC? The deployed 405/25 "System A" was monochrome, and was in service from 1936 through 1985. There were some experimental colour broadcasts using NTSC-like colour encoding with various subcarrier frequencies, most notably 2.6578215 MHz. Reportedly the BBC convinced the government to skip colour on 405/25 and wait for a higher-definition system. There were also tests of 625/25 with NTSC-like colour encoding using a 4.4296875 MHz subcarrier, and while that was never adopted as a broadcast standard, it is sometimes seen as a baseband signal and referred to colloquially as "NTSC-4.43". 625/25 broadcast started in 1963, and PAL colour in 1967. Apparently 405 line service was originally called "high definition", by comparison to Baird's electromechanical system. There's a lot of historical information at: http://www.pembers.freeserve.co.uk/World-TV-Standards/ Eric From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue May 25 23:45:59 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 05:45:59 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <20100525130320.GA51613@plum.flirble.org> from "Andrew Back" atMay 25, 10 02:03:20 pm Message-ID: <254EECC13BBF40FA95291FD8271F13D8@Edicons.local> It has become very clear that both Tony and I have some grave reservations about TNMoC, VCF & BP. He by experience and me by observation. I am horrified at the way he was treated. List members were trying to get him to go because of his standing in the classic computer community. Yet he had already gone there, volunteered and been insulted, charged for entry and given no respect whatsoever. They clearly know even less about the community of computer restorers than they do about computers. Will somebody who knows these people explain what they have done and at least get an apology for Tony. In the light of this revelation, those who wanted him to attend should think hard about going themselves. No wonder he did not want to go!!! Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 25 May 2010 21:17 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > All I can say is it was like that when I voluteered at BP. With a couple > > of twists. Firstly, there were no spare parts (not even common things > > like fuses) kept in stock. And secondly there was no budget to go and > > buy such parts. So if you wanted a part you took it from the nearest > > machine (!). Secondly, the policy, as docmented in some of the > > explanitory texts, was that when a machine was donated it was plugged in > > and turend on to see if it worked. I think you know my views on that. > > It's one thing for a non-knowledgable e-bya seller to turn on an old > > machine to he can sell it as working (if it does) and get a higher price. > > But a muesum should take rather more care than that! > > Did you offer to help raise funds for missing parts? Did you offer to > improve their documented policy and process? Hangf on a second. Are you seriously suggesting that I should not only be able t fix their machines and give my time freely for so doing, but should also be a fund raiser. Because I don't beleive anybody is going to be equally good in both roles. As you may have guessed by now, I am not the sort of person who is going to be good at spining a story to get donations. I'm the sort of person who's happiest with 'scope and logic analyser. One reason for having a club (or whatever you want to call it is that different people have differnt interstes and skills. And by putitng all the skills together, things get done. If I want to do everything myself, well, I've got a couple of hundred machines here to work on. > > Seems to me that you didn't like what you saw, assumed *somebody else* was > in charge and that they had "got it all wrong". > > Do you know what's better than pointing out problems? Offering solutions. > You seem to make the assumption that there were malicious Powers That Be I don not believe it was malicious. Just clueless. > conspiring against you and your firmly held ideals. I'd be happy to wager > that everyone was involved in a learning process. That there were no big > pots of money being poorly allocated, and spent on executive lunches when > things like fuses were desperately needed. I never said there were. But they were charging the public an admission fee. That money had to be used to pay various expenses, and if there wasn't enough to maintain their exhibits properly then IMHO there was a degree of mismanagement. Not fraud, I do not believe for an instant that anyone was pocekting the money, but mismanagement. And it was certainly very bad practice to just take parts from anotehr machine. Oh,m sure I do that all the time in my workshop -- but then it's my machine and I know what I've done. It's less amusing to come back to a machine in the museum after a couple of weeks, find fuses missing and nobody knows what happened to them (it's particularly unamusing when you spend an hour trying to find a fualt as a result...) -tony From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed May 26 00:01:31 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:31:31 +0930 Subject: television standards (was Re: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: <4BFC93B6.8040604@brouhaha.com> References: , <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com>, <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFC93B6.8040604@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1274850091.6448.10.camel@fubar> On Tue, 2010-05-25 at 20:21 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Apparently 405 line service was originally called "high definition", by > comparison to Baird's electromechanical system. Correct. When they were setting up the first public television service, High Definition was defined as anything with more than 240 lines. Baird's standard (competing with the EMI Marconi 405 line system) was 240 lines, progressive at 25 frames a second. From what I remember reading about it, it used an intermittent film process where the scene was shot on film, rapidly developed with poisonous developing chemicals and scanned with a mirror screw flying spot camera (from what I remember, don't quote me on that). Just a side note, in one documentary on the subject, it finished with a television veteran saying that when WWII started, he was told the whole reason why the television station was rushed into service was to get as many CRT's as possible into production for the RADAR project. This was, of course, top secret. He finishes by saying that had it not have been for television, RADAR wouldn't have been so quickly developed, and that it was RADAR that helped to win the Battle of Britain (again, this is my memory speaking... perhaps someone would like to correct me). Cheers, Alexis. From evan at snarc.net Wed May 26 00:13:22 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 01:13:22 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <254EECC13BBF40FA95291FD8271F13D8@Edicons.local> References: <20100525130320.GA51613@plum.flirble.org> from "Andrew Back" atMay 25, 10 02:03:20 pm <254EECC13BBF40FA95291FD8271F13D8@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <4BFCADF2.1090102@snarc.net> > he had already gone there, volunteered and been insulted, charged for entry and given no respect whatsoever. They clearly know even less about the community of computer restorers than they do about computers. > > Will somebody who knows these people explain what they have done and at > least get an apology for Tony. None of us can speak for TNMoC or explain their (alleged) rudeness. But, if they know nothing and don't care about the community of collectors/restorers, then they wouldn't be hosting a VCF, nor would Sellam allow them to do so. I'm going to speculate: perhaps Tony showed up, waltzed in, and proclaimed that he knew better than all of them. In any group or company, that sort of person would be treated rudely. He's doing the same thing now: "The only reason to attend a VCF is to privilege everyone else with MY presence, but those people aren't worthy MY time." I see a trend here. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Wed May 26 00:17:00 2010 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:47:00 +0930 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com>, <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1274851020.6448.17.camel@fubar> On Tue, 2010-05-25 at 18:00 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Didn't Britain briefly experiment with a 405/25 version of NTSC? I > recall seeing a 405 line BW broadcast during a trip to England in the > 70s and thought it was the worst picture I'd ever seen since my > family's 9" Philco set. The frame rate was quite visible to my eye. > > --Chuck They did. This video gives you an idea of the technology the technicians had to contend with: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH8FhsLPHyo Note that it's not 100% authentic, the film editing done to get the studio monitors visible is obvious. Being used to a 60Hz field rate would make the 50Hz frame rate flickery and obvious, because it's right on the edge of what the human eye can perceive as a solid image. Cheers, Alexis. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 26 00:42:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 01:42:43 -0400 Subject: television standards (was Re: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: <1274850091.6448.10.camel@fubar> References: <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com> <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFC93B6.8040604@brouhaha.com> <1274850091.6448.10.camel@fubar> Message-ID: > Just a side note, in one documentary on the subject, it finished with a > television veteran saying that when WWII started, he was told the whole > reason why the television station was rushed into service was to get as > many CRT's as possible into production for the RADAR project. While this may have been true in the UK, in the US the major CRT players saw the dollar signs in their eyes, from both RCA's interest in television and the development of inexpensive scopes. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 26 00:45:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 22:45:05 -0700 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <1274851020.6448.17.camel@fubar> References: , <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com>, <1274851020.6448.17.camel@fubar> Message-ID: <4BFC52F1.24827.353F2D0@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2010 at 14:47, Alexis wrote: > Being used to a 60Hz field rate would make the 50Hz frame rate > flickery and obvious, because it's right on the edge of what the human > eye can perceive as a solid image. Thank you for the link. A related link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjK-b4x9ZmQ talks about the Beeb restoring color to black-and-white prints. Very ingenious. It's also the first time I'd seen a clip of "Dad's Army"--up until now, I've only heard the radio version and formed my own mental pictures. It's a bit jarring to have them shattered. --Chuck From ARFINK at stthomas.edu Mon May 24 13:36:33 2010 From: ARFINK at stthomas.edu (Fink, Anthony R.) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 13:36:33 -0500 Subject: HP 64000 parts for sale Message-ID: <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD7424CC6DFEE8@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu> Some of you may recall that I had posted almost a year ago with an HP 64110A portable logic analyzer station. At the time I was only interested in selling the whole thing as a set, but now I am willing to part it out, since a buyer for the whole thing hasn't really surfaced. I have the following parts: HP 64110A- all stock parts present and fully functional, including CRT, dual disk drives, video RAM board, main processor board, keyboard, power supply. HP 64110A "backpack" vinyl pouch, in good condition. Some faded ink smudges on the front from wet dot matrix printer paper. HP 108338 networking cable, in excellent condition Some misc. floppy disks, including boot disk, disk utils., timing disks, and a few with no labels. I have 5x HP 64604A 8 channel timing probe pods, with a plethora of probes. I also have 3 connecting cables for said pods which can run to the timing analyzer boards inside of the station. I have tons of probes, including some special probes that come with a DIP chip clamp. All these are still in their original HP branded ziploc bags. I also have two timing analysis boards, and the main control board for them, along with all associated cables. So that's two 64602A's and one 64601A. I don't have any firm prices, since I don't know what these things are worth. I also haven't had the opportunity to fully test all this gear, since I am not versed in operating it. If you'd like anything tested I'd be happy to do so for you, provided you can walk me through it. I'm also happy to take pictures of anything you'd like, but I already have some uploaded to Picasa if you'd like a look: http://picasaweb.google.com/arf.at.sjv/HP64110APortableMainframe If you need any of these things, please feel free to email me at arfink at sdf.lonestar.org or to call me at 763-789-1285. Thanks very much, and have a nice day! -Tony Fink From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Mon May 24 15:25:41 2010 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 13:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PLATO@50 at Computer History Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <387471.84344.qm@web35302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes. Lee Courtney ________________________________ From: Richard To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, May 24, 2010 12:40:22 PM Subject: PLATO at 50 at Computer History Museum Anyone else going to this? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From nig.bailey at virgin.net Mon May 24 17:16:09 2010 From: nig.bailey at virgin.net (Nigel Bailey) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 23:16:09 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? Message-ID: <4BFAFAA9.7010801@virgin.net> My 2 pennorth, The business of listing "4 systems you have had experience of" is a little odd & seems to hint at an administration that don't know one end of an electrolytic from the other, it's rather like choosing a builder based upon "what type of housing stock he's worked on". ("Door sticking?, No mate, I only do victorian terraces & 1930s semis") Personally I was musing with the idea of volunteering when the kids are both in school, as I'm 44 and have been doing electronics for about 42 years, and I'm not a million miles away, but it's going to kill me seeing stuff rot, and not being able to get my hands dirty for the sake of a piece of paper. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon May 24 19:47:15 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 19:47:15 -0500 Subject: OT : RIP Martin Gardner In-Reply-To: <4BFB1A60.30703@brouhaha.com> References: <4BFB1A60.30703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BFB1E13.2020309@tx.rr.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Ian King wrote: >> I remember reading his "Amateur Scientist" column in Scientific American, >> > Great column, but AFAICT it was never written by Martin Gardner. IIRC > most of the Amateur Scientist columns I read were written by C.L. Strong. > > Eric > Ummm, C. L. Stong - no 'r'. I absolutely loved that column as long as C. L. wrote it. Somewhere, I have a CD containing most or all of them. BTW, I made the same mistake of thinking Gardner did some of the Amateur Scientist columns too, but evidently he did not. While I'm confessing, I thought for the longest time that Mr. Stong did those marvelous drawings that graced his columns, but I learned later that I was wrong about that too. I don't know which was better, the text or the drawings, but they were both marvelous. I still think it would be fun to build one of his "short pendulum" seismographs some day. Later, Charlie C. From clay at ArcherServices.com Mon May 24 22:39:40 2010 From: clay at ArcherServices.com (Clay Archer) Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:39:40 -0600 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... Message-ID: I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring a Tek 4051 recently. I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still have some documentation, and I found other manuals on bitsavers.org but have not located any software. Do you know of any source on-line? I found references on this site (Feb. 2009) from other users talking about building an archive of software for the 4051. I have keyed in a few short programs to test the vector graphics, but it would be nice to have the original standard pack tape programs. Even printouts would be helpful. I recall when I last used a 4051 back in the early '80's we had the ability to dump & load programs using the serial port, and the ability to un-secret the programs. If I can find this information again I would be glad to provide it to help build a software library for this fantastic system. Thanks, C. Archer From trestivo at cfl.rr.com Tue May 25 13:08:52 2010 From: trestivo at cfl.rr.com (THOM RESTIVO) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 14:08:52 -0400 Subject: pdp8/a rebuild Message-ID: <2C.1A.28437.5321CFB4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Does anyone know a reason why I can't remove the G8018's and G8019 and replace them with newer OEM power supplies? I know that one G8018 supplies 5V @ 25a, +15V @ 2a, -15V @ 2a and +20V @ 4a. I believe the 20V is only used for core memory. So.a 5v supply @ 50a should be sufficient, and a 2 dual output +/- 15v supply @ 2@ each should be a reasonable substitute. I am aware of the functions of the G8019 and that I would be defeating the "dead fan shutdown" and battery backup feature. OR. Does anyone have a written procedure for troubleshooting the backplane, specifically the SC260m triac, the opto isolator, the 2n6531 transistor and what causes the 47 ohm resistor to burn. With all boards removed I know how to defeat the removal of the two G8018's and on a good backplane by adding a jumper between two pins on the G8018 connectors. I can apply 3v to a pin on the G8019 connector to get the triac to fire. But this is not enough for troubleshooting a bad backplane. All help will be greatly appreciated. Thom Melbourne Florida From devon at stopps.ca Tue May 25 17:24:25 2010 From: devon at stopps.ca (Devon Stopps) Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 18:24:25 -0400 Subject: Free: Kaypro 2x near Toronto, ON Message-ID: <4BFC4E19.1060301@gmail.com> Free Kaypro 2x Working when last used a 3 years ago. Looks great. Believe there is a system disk with it. Can drop off between Toronto, ON and Kingston, ON, or come pick it up in Cobourg. Contact me off-list. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 26 01:59:25 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 07:59:25 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> References: <4BF8F232.7000302@gmail.com><4BF8F696.4040609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <00de01cafb6b$cad9e330$02395b0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BFAFA4F.6010307@dunnington.plus.com> <009c01cafc39$44343cd0$e85f5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com> <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BFCC6CD.8060307@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/05/2010 01:15, Eric Smith wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >> Yes, really. NTSC, PAL, and SECAM are colo[u]r encoding methods, >> nothing more. They don't mandate the number of vertical lines, >> horizontal frequencies, etc, although certain other standards do tend >> to be uniquely associated with certain colour encoding standards. >> > I can't speak for PAL and SECAM, but the NTSC standard most certainly > does specify the number of vertical lines, interlace, and horizontal and > vertical sync frequencies. I stand corrected -- thanks :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed May 26 02:26:11 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 02:26:11 -0500 Subject: television standards (was Re: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: <1274850091.6448.10.camel@fubar> References: ,, <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com>, , <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com>, <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BFC93B6.8040604@brouhaha.com>, <1274850091.6448.10.camel@fubar> Message-ID: > Subject: Re: television standards (was Re: Pravetz 82) > From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:31:31 +0930 > > On Tue, 2010-05-25 at 20:21 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > > Apparently 405 line service was originally called "high definition", by > > comparison to Baird's electromechanical system. > > Correct. When they were setting up the first public television service, > High Definition was defined as anything with more than 240 lines. > > Baird's standard (competing with the EMI Marconi 405 line system) was > 240 lines, progressive at 25 frames a second. From what I remember > reading about it, it used an intermittent film process where the scene > was shot on film, rapidly developed with poisonous developing chemicals > and scanned with a mirror screw flying spot camera (from what I > remember, don't quote me on that). > > Just a side note, in one documentary on the subject, it finished with a > television veteran saying that when WWII started, he was told the whole > reason why the television station was rushed into service was to get as > many CRT's as possible into production for the RADAR project. This was, > of course, top secret. He finishes by saying that had it not have been > for television, RADAR wouldn't have been so quickly developed, and that > it was RADAR that helped to win the Battle of Britain (again, this is my > memory speaking... perhaps someone would like to correct me). > > Cheers, > > Alexis. > The major TV fallout from the war, is that the electronic scanning system of Philo T. Farnsworth, was put on hold by the government war effort. He had electronic scanning before the war, and spent the years after the war fighting his patents with RCA. He won, but at a cost of his life due to depression. Electronic television as we know it, 500 + lines of resolution was Farnsworth, and it was in the 1930's, Not Lodige Baird and his mechanical scanner, or Zyorkyin, who could not get his electronic system to work, in the Westinghouse labs. He visited Philo too, and took all his secrets from the open inventor. I was at the Tektronix campus today, and one of the streets is named Zyorkin... Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 26 02:35:01 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 00:35:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CNC nitwittery Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone here has access to a CNC machine. The thing is a smooth elongated toroid about the size of a little finger with a small side hole. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed May 26 02:47:29 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 08:47:29 +0100 Subject: CNC nitwittery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do, but currently its in bits after a move, 5 axis self built cnc for making clock and other small parts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adT8Dr5JZ4c&feature=channel Access to a machine is the easy bit, programming a part can be the hard part. I dont use cam software as there is none about in my price range for the methods I use. There is open source cam for standard 3 axis machines though Dave Caroline On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 8:35 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone here has access to a CNC machine. The thing is a > smooth elongated toroid about the size of a little finger with a small side > hole. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From dm561 at torfree.net Wed May 26 04:57:02 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 04:57:02 -0500 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK References: Message-ID: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt> Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:50:02 -0400 From: William Donzelli Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK >> And I'm telling you that in all my VCF experience, including as the * >> organizer * of four very successful editions, I've found that people >> (attendees and exhibitors alike) go because they relish the community >> aspects. ?Sure it's fun to show off your exhibit, but most people get the >> most kicks from meeting their fellow collectors, etc. >Like any show - computers, cars, dogs, model trains, stamps, sex toys >- always far more social than stuff-oriented. >Sure, the "stuff" is important, but I would bet you could hold a very >good VCF with *nobody* bringing *any* machines. >Just make sure you get enough pizzas and beer. -- >Will ------------------- Of course many people go to this sort of thing for the social aspect and hang out on here for the same reason, but why are some people on here so deeply offended when someone like Tony says that he wouldn't care to spend time and money just to have some pizza and beer, especially considering the way he's been treated here by some of the folks he'd be eating and drinking with. Frankly, although I'm sure that most people on here are nice folks, there's only a handful with whom I think I'd have much in common and would spend time and money to hang out with and listen to if there weren't something else that interested me (especially since I don't drink beer or eat pizza). Having read some of these comments and especially the sentiment that unless you're a "celebrity" who cares what you have to contribute, I'm thinking the same as Tony, namely why am I wasting my time here? I've got friends who share my interests and there aren't any ignorant jerks like Evan among them nor do they tell me to fuck off; maybe it really is time to rent a dumpster and just toss in those Cromemcos, Vector Graphics, PETs, AIM65s and the 25-odd boxes of manuals and documentation that are taking up space just in case someone might want or need something one day; with a couple of exceptions they certainly aren't any use to me. Something to think about for sure; I may end up actually thanking Evan one day for finally showing me the light. From andy at flirble.org Wed May 26 05:40:05 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 11:40:05 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <254EECC13BBF40FA95291FD8271F13D8@Edicons.local> References: <20100525130320.GA51613@plum.flirble.org> <254EECC13BBF40FA95291FD8271F13D8@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <20100526104005.GA84224@plum.flirble.org> On (05:45 26/05/10), RodSmallwood wrote: > It has become very clear that both Tony and I have some grave reservations > about TNMoC, VCF & BP. He by experience and me by observation. > > I am horrified at the way he was treated. List members were trying to get > him to go because of his standing in the classic computer community. Yet he > had already gone there, volunteered and been insulted, charged for entry and > given no respect whatsoever. They clearly know even less about the community > of computer restorers than they do about computers. > > Will somebody who knows these people explain what they have done and at > least get an apology for Tony. What an absurd suggestion and one that speaks volumes. Regards, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From rickb at bensene.com Wed May 26 09:32:53 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 07:32:53 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: C. Archer wrote: > > I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring a Tek 4051 recently. > I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still have some > documentation, and I found other manuals on bitsavers.org but have not > located any software. Do you know of any source on-line? ... > ...it > would be nice to have the original standard pack tape programs. The 4051 is a wonderful machine. When I worked at Tektronix between '77 and '90, I had a lot of occasion to work and play with this machine and its variants (4052 and 4054). Their allure died off pretty quickly once raster graphics came into its own, as the DVST (Direct View Storage Tube) technology had some limitations, especially when it came to "live" graphics. I own a 4051 with a 4907 8" floppy drive system. I have quite a number of games programs for the 4051, including the classic "SHOOT" series of artillery firing games, the classic "WEATHER WAR", and quite a few other games. My nieces and nephews get a kick playing these games on the "antique computer" when they come to visit. Amazing that these simple games can be so engaging when kids are used to Xbox and Playstation. Problem is, I only have the games in floppy disk form, which doesn't make them useful to others at this point. Other problem is that time is hard to come by, and it'd take some time to transfer the programs to some other electronic form. I will try to get to pulling these programs off via serial RS-232 and make them available online somehow (probably Bitsavers software archive), but not sure when I'll be able to do this. It's my belief that part of the reason that software is so hard to find for these machines is that they used a 1/4" QIC cartridge (DC-300A) tape transport as the primary data storage medium. The problem is that the tension bands in the DC-300A tapes degrade with time and eventually break. When this happens while the tape is in the transport results in the tape generally getting mangled, making data recovery difficult. Another, though much less-common problem with some cartridges is that the drive wheel softens over time, and when the cartridge is placed in the transport, the wheel ends up getting mangled, resulting in an inability to read the tape at best, and mangled tape at worst. The fact that this is a common occurrence has probably left a lot of folks that may have some 405x software on tape frustrated when they try to transfer it to other medium and end up with unreadable tapes at best, or destroyed data at worst. I have over 100, perhaps more, original tape cartridges with 405x software on them. I also have a few vintage boxes of NOS (early 1980's) unused DC-300A (Tektronix-branded) cartridges. All of them, without exception, either have broken tension bands, or of they appear good, break as soon as they are put into a transport. Reading them is impossible without a new tension band. I can't find a source for replacement tension bands. The only repair I know of is to try to find a new cartridge that has a good tension band, and then go through the tedious process of transplanting the good tension band into a cartridge with a broken one. Problem is, DC-300's haven't been made for a long time. There are currently other 1/4" QIC tape cartridges available on the market that have tension bands which should work as transplant candidates, but the cheapest one is around $30 (DC-6250) per cartridge based on what I've been able to find in a quick online search. To replace a bunch of tension bands using this method would be prohibitively expensive (for me). Getting one good band and transplanting it one at a time into cartridges with broken bands would be extremely time-consuming, and again, time is something that I don't have a lot of. If anyone out there has ideas to remedy this situation, I'm open to suggestions. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 26 09:41:10 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 07:41:10 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFD3306.9020101@bitsavers.org> On 5/26/10 7:32 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > prohibitively expensive (for me). Getting one good band and > transplanting it one at a time into cartridges with broken bands would > be extremely time-consuming, and again, time is something that I don't > have a lot of. > > If anyone out there has ideas to remedy this situation, I'm open to > suggestions. > Chuck Guzis has used Baumgartens 4 1/4" Plastibands. I tried a few and had some trouble with them popping off, but it may just be how I was installing them. http://www.rapidsupplies.com/baumgartenssf-6000plastibandssize4-14100bxassortedcolorsbausf6000bausf-6000.aspx From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed May 26 10:21:12 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:21:12 +0100 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFD3C68.8070404@philpem.me.uk> On 26/05/10 15:32, Rick Bensene wrote: > I own a 4051 with a 4907 8" floppy drive system. I have quite a number > of games programs for the 4051, including the classic "SHOOT" series of > artillery firing games, the classic "WEATHER WAR", and quite a few other > games. My nieces and nephews get a kick playing these games on the > "antique computer" when they come to visit. Amazing that these simple > games can be so engaging when kids are used to Xbox and Playstation. Sometimes simplicity is nice -- the lack of flashy graphics lets you concentrate on playing the game. I love Lunar Lander and Asteroids (and would love it even more if I could get my paws on a boardset for either one, working or otherwise)... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bv at norbionics.com Wed May 26 09:31:49 2010 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:31:49 +0200 Subject: television standards (was Re: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: <4BFC93B6.8040604@brouhaha.com> References: <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com> <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFC93B6.8040604@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 2010 05:21:26 +0200, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Didn't Britain briefly experiment with a 405/25 version of NTSC? > The deployed 405/25 "System A" was monochrome, and was in service from > 1936 through 1985. There were some experimental colour broadcasts using > NTSC-like colour encoding with various subcarrier frequencies, most > notably 2.6578215 MHz. Reportedly the BBC convinced the government to > skip colour on 405/25 and wait for a higher-definition system. There > were also tests of 625/25 with NTSC-like colour encoding using a > 4.4296875 MHz subcarrier, and while that was never adopted as a > broadcast standard, it is sometimes seen as a baseband signal and > referred to colloquially as "NTSC-4.43". > > 625/25 broadcast started in 1963, and PAL colour in 1967. > > Apparently 405 line service was originally called "high definition", by > comparison to Baird's electromechanical system. I have seen NTSC-4.43 used on transatlantic satellite links as late as the mid 90's. -- -bv From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 26 12:03:00 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 10:03:00 -0700 Subject: television standards (was Re: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: References: , <1274850091.6448.10.camel@fubar>, Message-ID: <4BFCF1D4.30042.1E5448@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2010 at 2:26, Randy Dawson wrote: > The major TV fallout from the war, is that the electronic scanning > system of Philo T. Farnsworth, was put on hold by the government war > effort. He had electronic scanning before the war, and spent the years > after the war fighting his patents with RCA. He won, but at a cost of > his life due to depression. Electronic television as we know it, 500 + > lines of resolution was Farnsworth, and it was in the 1930's, Not > Lodige Baird and his mechanical scanner, or Zyorkyin, who could not > get his electronic system to work, in the Westinghouse labs. He > visited Philo too, and took all his secrets from the open inventor. Another life destroyed by "General" David Sarnoff's thievery and underhandedness; Armstrong being the other. > I was at the Tektronix campus today, and one of the streets is named > Zyorkin... I once had the distinction of being in an all-night poker game that was broken up by Mr. Zworykin. (note the spelling). A long story. --Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed May 26 12:11:27 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 13:11:27 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFD563F.20104@sbcglobal.net> The degradation of this whole thread highlights _exactly_ why email is a horrible communication method when you need to convey opinions, emotions, intent, and other subjective information. Tony, please don't go. Even though I only read here, and only contribute the odd link to a classic computing article; I ( and I guarantee many others) enjoy and appreciate everything you contribute here. That's very likely why people offered to get you to the event. Now for some comments & observations, placed inline: > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:08:59 -0400 > From: Evan Koblentz > Message-ID: <4BFC588B.6010102 at snarc.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > >> But my original message asked how others would benefit from having me there. > > That is exactly what I * said * that you said! And my point is, if you > have the attitude "What will others benefit from MY attendance," then > you're looking at it all wrong. You should go to VCF for * your own * > benefit. But the event certainly won't succeed or fail because of any > one attendee. That may be what he wrote, but you seem to have taken it all wrong. >> Ah, I see, SO the reason to attend a VCF is for what you can take, not >> what you can offer. > > No, but your attitude seems to be all about yourself. It may be for this particular topic; but not in any ego-centric way. It seems he was saying (in a round about way) 'Why do you want me to go?'. > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 19:18:01 -0400 > From: Evan Koblentz > Message-ID: <4BFC5AA9.7000108 at snarc.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >> I think Tony's just humbly asking why it's so important to these folks >> to persuade him to go. > > I think Tony's being an ungrateful schmuck. And honestly, your usage of alternate names & descriptions does nothing good for your image. >> he said that in his judgement it is not aimed at somone like him any >> more than a dog show or exhibition of the latest sex toys might be > > "There might be common, non-serious collectors present! I'm too good > for THOSE people!" Ugh .... spare us. Hmm, nope. I'd say he thought (being a very intelligent person who knows quite a bit about this) was more like 'The displays there probably won't go into enough detail for my (Tony's) interest.' What's wrong with that? >> He might be wrong of course and if he had attended he might well have >> enjoyed it, but it is his choice after all; why does that offend and >> upset so many people? > > It offends and upsets me because he's not just saying, "Thanks, but no > thanks;" instead he's insulting the entire VCF franchise, all computer > museums, and all people who attend such things. Really? Must've missed that part. > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 01:13:22 -0400 > From: Evan Koblentz > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > Message-ID: <4BFCADF2.1090102 at snarc.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > >> he had already gone there, volunteered and been insulted, charged for entry and given no respect whatsoever. They clearly know even less about the community of computer restorers than they do about computers. >> >> Will somebody who knows these people explain what they have done and at >> least get an apology for Tony. > > None of us can speak for TNMoC or explain their (alleged) rudeness. > But, if they know nothing and don't care about the community of > collectors/restorers, then they wouldn't be hosting a VCF, nor would > Sellam allow them to do so. > > I'm going to speculate: perhaps Tony showed up, waltzed in, and > proclaimed that he knew better than all of them. In any group or > company, that sort of person would be treated rudely. He's doing the > same thing now: "The only reason to attend a VCF is to privilege > everyone else with MY presence, but those people aren't worthy MY time." Perhaps, he may have; but after being a member of this list for a few years now, I highly doubt that what is happened. I have never seen _any_ evidence on this list of Tony being an ego-maniac, as you seen to be trying to paint him as. > I see a trend here. Would that be the one of you not reading his messages correctly? > ------------------------------ Evan - I'm not picking at just you; it's only that this last digest got me to thinking that Tony is getting beat up over nothing, correction - misinterpretation. Enough is enough already. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From redodd at comcast.net Wed May 26 13:08:59 2010 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:08:59 -0400 Subject: Hannspree 9.6 inch tv 4-in-1 cable pinout ( a little ot) Message-ID: Hello all, I just got a nice Baseball shaped Hannspree 9.6 inch tv from ebay. My problem is that I want to use the svideo input but this is only available at their 10 pin mini-din connector. The 10 pin proprietary 4-in-1 cable that has to be used for svideo wasn't included in the auction. I found out that Hannspree support is useless for technical questions like this. I couldn't find any pinout info from google etc. so I'm wondering if anyone here has a link or has a cable that they could check with an ohmmeter and supply me with this info. The 4-in-1 cable has connections for svideo, composite video, and left & right audio. This info should be posted somewhere because these tv's make nice monitors (800 x 600) for projects and are easy to remove from the original shell. TIA. Ralph From dm561 at torfree.net Wed May 26 14:53:47 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:53:47 -0500 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? References: Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 11:40:05 +0100 From: Andrew Back Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? On (05:45 26/05/10), RodSmallwood wrote: >> Will somebody who knows these people explain what they have done and at >> least get an apology for Tony. >What an absurd suggestion and one that speaks volumes. >Regards, >Andrew ----------- Yes, that a suggestion to hear an actual reasoned response to Tony's (and others') observations and experiences instead of just dismissing them with childish name-calling, word-twisting and insults is considered "absurd" does indeed speak volumes.... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 26 14:01:21 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 15:01:21 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFD563F.20104@sbcglobal.net> References: <4BFD563F.20104@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > ? ? ? ?Really? Must've missed that part. Recall that Tony has a history of being an ungrateful schmuck when it comes to VCF. Go back in the archives maybe five or six years - it was with one of Sellam's events. There is also a history of BP museum bashing. > ? ? ? ?Perhaps, he may have; but after being a member of this list for a few > years now, I highly doubt that what is happened. I have never seen _any_ > evidence on this list of Tony being an ego-maniac, as you seen to be trying > to paint him as. Hmm... > ? ? ? ?Enough is enough already. Yes, if the museum bashing were to stop and some certain people just came clean, it would be great. Not going to happen... -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 12:42:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:42:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFAFAA9.7010801@virgin.net> from "Nigel Bailey" at May 24, 10 11:16:09 pm Message-ID: > > My 2 pennorth, > The business of listing "4 systems you have had experience of" is a > little odd & seems to hint at an administration that don't know one end This was on the memebrship form for the Computer Conservation Society when I joined. It was something like : 'What vintage computers do you have expeirence of' and had 4 spaces to write them in with some way of indicating if the expeirence was as a designer, an builder, a programmer, or a user. It makes some sense for early one-off machines like EDSAC. It makes rather less sense for the sort of machines that most of us work on... > of an electrolytic from the other, it's rather like choosing a builder > based upon "what type of housing stock he's worked on". ("Door > sticking?, No mate, I only do victorian terraces & 1930s semis") Yes. For example, I will admit I've never worked on an HP2100 minicomputer. But I've worked on many other machines of that period (as an enthusiast, nothing more) and I am darn sure that given the manuals (which from the ones I've read are excellent) I could get one going. Even without the manuals I reckoin I could make a showing... > Personally I was musing with the idea of volunteering when the kids are > both in school, as I'm 44 and have been doing electronics for about 42 Like me, then.. > years, and I'm not a million miles away, but it's going to kill me > seeing stuff rot, and not being able to get my hands dirty for the sake > of a piece of paper. I juut hope it's changed a lot in the last few years. However reading the report of the restoration of the air traffic control PDP11s in Computer Ressrection did not fill me with any confidence at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 12:47:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:47:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <20100525134936.O62748@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 25, 10 01:57:09 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 25 May 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > If I knew this thread was going to turn into yet another flamefest, I > > wouldn't have bothered starting it... > > . . . and I apologize for pushing Tony to go. I thought that his presence Oh, you needn't apologise. You acted or good reasons. And I have learnt a lot about certain people on this list. > would be good for the event, and that he would enjoy it, with a little bit > of help to be able to go. But, he has reasons; they are his own reasons; > and they need not apply to anybody else. Absolutely. I don;t wish to attend, so what? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 13:47:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:47:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFC53B9.4040205@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 25, 10 11:48:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 25/05/10 23:22, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > It's primarily to protect the machine from the observers, not v.v. > > :-) > > "Verily, thou hath but little value, but the loss of a fine PDP will be > met with much woe and dejection back at the shop." I have expressed many similar views in the past, mostly relating the value of classic computers to my own life (the former being much more valualbe of course). For some reason many people don't agree with it :-) > > Secondarily, it's to protect the exhibitors from H&S idiocy. > > "Ooooo, you can't have that pen! Someone might get poked in the eye! Oh, > and that pencil!" Oh please don't get me started on that... When I was doing my PhD I had a row with the safety offficer. He complained there were bare connections on the device on my bench. I pointed out 1) This is a research lab, I need to conenct test equipment to the device so I can make measuemenets 2) The maximum voltage on any exposed connection wrt ground was 12V, in other words about the voltage on a model railway track 3) Anybody who walks into a research lab, turns on an unknown piece of equipment and starts touching exponsed metalwork deserves all they get. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 13:49:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:49:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFC56BD.20509@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at May 25, 10 07:01:17 pm Message-ID: > I don't see why it should change what the exhibitors bring. VCF events > attract everyone from the most hard-core collectors to the most casually > tech-inclined families with children. There's always something for > everyone at a VCF. > My point is that j-random-puiblic is not likely to pay to attend a dedicated VCF event, so the people there are likely to have some clue about classic computers. Whereas people may atted a museum to see other things on show and then wander in to the VCF to see what it's all about. Such people may well then do something very silly... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 13:52:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:52:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 25, 10 05:15:28 pm Message-ID: > I can't speak for PAL and SECAM, but the NTSC standard most certainly > does specify the number of vertical lines, interlace, and horizontal and > vertical sync frequencies. It had to, since the frequencies are > different than the sync frequencies used for its predecessor > black-and-white system (525/30). The original NTSC standard included > both 525/29.94 and 441/30 scan rates, but the latter was dropped at the > last meeting of the first NTSC on 8-March-1941. What is the offiical name for a composite colour signal (of any scan rates) which uses QAM-encoded colour signals but without the alternate-line pahse switching of PAL? > > While there exist other unofficial NTSC-related systems such as the > so-called "NTSC-J" and "NTSC 4.43", these are NOT part of the NTSC > standard. While it is possible to use NTSC-compatible color encoding > with different scanning parameters, the result is *not* NTSC. True, but what should it be called? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 13:53:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:53:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFC69DD.60501@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at May 25, 10 06:22:53 pm Message-ID: > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > More fool them when they go to their first job interview. > > > > "You have two threads running in parallel, and a single data structure > > which both threads must be able to read from and write to. How do you > > prevent data corruption in this structure when both threads try to > > access it at the same time?" > > I use a Jackcard (sp) loom for all my thread problems. :) I don;t, I jsut pick the right changewheels :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 13:34:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:34:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFC4DA3.3000507@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 25, 10 11:22:27 pm Message-ID: [Perspex cover on a demonstration PDP8/e) > It's primarily to protect the machine from the observers, not v.v. > Secondarily, it's to protect the exhibitors from H&S idiocy. > Ah, that makes a lot of sense. And the second point iws what bothers me, actually, As I've said, if somebody is silly enough to stick their fingers in a working machine, they deserve a Darwin Award. Alas the HSE doesn't see it that way :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 13:32:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:32:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at May 25, 10 10:39:56 pm Message-ID: > >> But I don't solder. I don't make cables. I never conduct board-level > >> repairs. I might swap add-in cards when needed or in extremis things > >> like motherboards or CPUs. I have no knowledge of compenent-level > >> electronics nor any great interest. I'm a software man myself, really, > >> that's what interests me. > > > > Fine. I do wonder why you want to run the software on the original > > machine rather than under emulattion, though. > > I do use emulators sometimes, but it's not the same. I like the feel > and the sounds and smells and so on of running real hardware, and I Now I can certainly relate to that. There is an 'experience' in running the real old machine. > enjoy the feeling of using something that is a bit different, not just > another x86 PC in a world with billions of the things. > > > > And how you would keep the > > original machine going if you don't ever want to repair it. > > Unfortunately, as far as I know there are no repair services for classic > > computers, so you virtually have to do it yourself. > > Frankly, I won't. If any of my kit dies, I'll try to fix it by board > or major component level swaps, and if that's not enough, find some The problem is that, at least for many of the machines discussed here, you can't get another 'major component'. Well, you could get a similar machine (if you aare fortunate) and strip it for pasts, but IMHO it is better to keep as many of the machines running as possible. > collector or something who'd want it rather than binning it. > > I'd ask around here and one or two other places to see if anyone had > the time and skills and inclination to fix it, perhaps in exchange for > a pint and a curry or anything, but I can't afford more than a token > of gratitude, really. This, infortunately, is a big problem :-). There are very few people around (as a fraction of the total population) who can fix this stuff, and yet nobody wants to pay them. As I've mentioned before, it's financially disadvantageous for me to set up in business to fix any classic hardware..... To trace a fault on a moderately complex classic ocmnputer that the repairer has worked on before could take a couple of minutes. Or a couple of hours. For a machine he's never worekd on before, it could take weeks. So I bdoubt, alas, you'll get many takes for 'a pint'. > > >> Similarly, with my motorbikes and bicycles, of which I have a small > >> and ever-changing collection, I pay pros to keep them running well for > >> me. I hate getting dirty & scraping my knuckles repairing them, and > >> why should I? > > > > I can think of one very good reason. Your life, and the lives of others, > > depends on that work being done correctly. And having seen what some car > > repairers -- even official dealers -- get up to, I wouldn't trust one, al= > as. > > I get that one a lot, but usually from people who actively enjoy > working on their vehicles. I detest it. I hate working with machinery, > hate getting my hands dirty, and don't trust my own meagre mechanical And I guess you regard all oil as 'dirty'. > skills. This is very hard for many an inveterate fiddler to > understand, though, it seems. I think many people assume that the things that they enjoy must be enjoyed by other people. It's not true, of course. > > The few times I've tried motorcycle maintenance, I've usually got it > badly wrong and done serious mechanical damage that cost many hundreds > to thousands of pounds to repair. I don't even change my own oil. This I do find amazing. I've worked on all sorts of things from clocks to cameras, cars to computers, and never done any serious damage. At least no in recenet years. The disasters I made whne I was younger, though... It must come with practice. And even if I say so myself I think some people are 'good with machinery' and some aren't. > > >> The idea that, for example, a group, club or society should consult > >> its members for help, and if it doesn't, then it's flawed, is quite > >> bizarre to me. > > > > Eh? Cam you please tell me what the point of the club is then, other than > > to share the knowledge, experience, whatever of the members? > > Primarily, social. To meet and talk to other people who share your > interests; to perhaps get a club magazine or mailing list or go to > club events where you can listen to talks, meet heroes or idols, and > chat about the area of interest. I don't have any 'heors or idols'. I don't care who the person is, I will listen to what they have to say and question it if I have reason to doubt it. Isn't 'chatting about the area of interest' sharing knowledge or expeience? Who gives the talks? In the clubs I'm a mamember of, they're often given by the memebers themselves. Who writes the articles in the club magazine? The members? > > Most of this sort of club that I'm in - which means a dozen or so - > are run by volunteers, but the committee or whatever of volunteers do > everything. Members occasionally join the committee but that is the > only primary way of contributing. Very strange. Or, I suspect the clubs I'm a mamber of are the strange ones.... > > As far as I can tell, this is the norm, this is how pretty much all of > these things work. > > What you want seems like a different type of organization altogether; > something more like the Bluebell Railway, say, which has hundreds of > workers doing all manner of jobs, as if they were running a transport > business, only they do it for fun. Exactly! > But if I were you, I'd have been flattered that so many people said > that they felt that you should be there and that the event would be > better if you were there. As it is, your rejection of this seems I really don't see how they can possibly know this. > rather churlish, to be honest. > > It's your life; nobody is compelling you to go, but if a bunch of > friends offer to sub you and take you there and back, I would have > thought a better response was "thanks very much indeed, that is very > nice of you, but it is not my sort of event", not "pah, they're > running it wrong, I'm not interested." Next time I have a major piece of machinery to overhaul, I will offer to pay your travelling expensese. Want to come and get covered in oil and grease? From what you've said, I don;t think so. And I don;t think I would enjoy the VCF-UK as it has been described. I really don't see why that is such a big problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 13:41:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:41:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFC4EC9.1080806@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at May 25, 10 11:27:21 pm Message-ID: > > On 25/05/10 19:24, Tony Duell wrote: > >> And then of course there are the ever-present "Please do not touch" signs... > > > > Whcih IMHO are useless. The clueful know not to stick their fingers in an > > unknown machine, the clueless probably can'r read, or if they can't think > > the sign doesn't apoply to them. > > In which case they deserve the Darwin Award. Although sticking your > fingers on a marked, live AC connector is probably not quite inventive > enough to get a DA. I would agree... As an aside, although I have never held a firearm, and never intend to, one thing I was taught by somebody who used a shotgun was that 'All guns are loaded unless _you_ have verified they are not'. In other words, don't assume a gun is safe ebcuase somebody has said it is. I have modified that into 'All connections are live until you've checked they are not'. You don;t touch any metal part unless you have checked it is not at a letahl voltage. Unfortunately, aas Peter Turnbull implied, the HSE doesn't agree with me :-( > > I'd probably run the machines in question off of RCD (aka GFCI, > PowerBreaker) adapters, just in case someone did find a live point that Many of my machines have sufficientl;y large capacitors in the mains filters that they trip such devices anyway... They also will not protect you against high voltages on the secondary side of an isolated PSU -- for example the voltages applied to cathode ray tubes in most monitors. Admittedly the current there is unlikeky to be lethal (I can give at least one counterexample, though), but... > wasn't covered up... ~10mA for the few milliseconds it takes for a > PowerBreaker to trip is less likely to do lasting damage than the 5-6 > seconds it'd take for me to get up, grab the mains plug and yank it out > of the socket (13A plugs tend to be quite stiff compared to, say, IECs, > and not all machines are fitted with IEC sockets). > > Though if the idiot turned round and said "your machine electrocuted me" > I'd be quick to point out that: > 1) If it had electrocuted them, they'd be dead But what if the worst does happen? > 2) There was a "Live parts, please don't touch, danger of death, > etc." sign on the desk And it's an small kid who can't read? Yes I know such people shouldn't be running around a classic computer demonstration, which is one of my reservations about having the VCF as an add-on to a puiblic museum. > 3) The live parts were marked and covered, and that pushing one's > finger around the cover to touch a live part of the machine wasn't an > especially smart idea > 4) They'd be best advised to at least make an attempt to learn from > the experience and BLOODY WELL NOT DO IT AGAIN. And then you find yourselkf on the wrong end of a lawsuit and/or doing a battle with the unsurance company providing public liability cover. There are better things to spend time and money on... > I do not suffer fools gladly. I am sure you realise I don't either. :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 13:58:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:58:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 25, 10 06:00:21 pm Message-ID: > > On 25 May 2010 at 17:15, Eric Smith wrote: > > > While there exist other unofficial NTSC-related systems such as the > > so-called "NTSC-J" and "NTSC 4.43", these are NOT part of the NTSC > > standard. While it is possible to use NTSC-compatible color encoding > > with different scanning parameters, the result is *not* NTSC. > > Didn't Britain briefly experiment with a 405/25 version of NTSC? I I believe a few test transmissions occured. The sets were never sold to the general public, but Murphy (IIRC) made a few experimental ones, one of which still exists somwehre. The 405 line standard ('System A') was used for monochrome TV until the early 1980s. When the 625 line standard was introduced in the late 1960s, it was for one station (BBC2) only. Sets were so-called 'dual standard' meaning they had a user control to slect between 405 or 625 lines. Since there were quite a few differences other than just the line freuquency, this control (the 'system swtich' was connected to many parts of the set. Early colour sets were dual standard too, although the colour decoder was disabled on 405 lines. After a time, the 405 line trasnmissions were duplicated on 625 lines too (although the 405 line signals contineud for the benefit of people who had such sets). > recall seeing a 405 line BW broadcast during a trip to England in the > 70s and thought it was the worst picture I'd ever seen since my > family's 9" Philco set. The frame rate was quite visible to my eye. The frame rate (50 Hz) is the same aas on UK/European 625 line set, of course. I didn't find a correctly set-up 405 line set to be all that bad. A badly set-up one, well.... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 26 14:21:37 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:21:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt> References: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt> Message-ID: <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> > >Like any show - computers, cars, dogs, model trains, stamps, sex toys > >- always far more social than stuff-oriented. MOST hobbies, especially sex toys, are more fun with somebody else. But computers can be enjoyed in quiet isolation. > >Just make sure you get enough pizzas and beer. When this thread started, Tony very politely bowed out of going with an excuse ("mostly financial"). We (I) were insensitive, and called him on his excuse, with offers to handle the financial aspects. He did NOT gratuitously insult those involved. We PUSHED Tony to reveal his "real reasons", and eventually he did. Now some people are grievously offended by why he feels that it would be better not to go. That was due to MY insensitivity, NOT Tony's manners. If you feel that Tony's "social graces" are inadequate, then don't go have pizza and beer with him! Personally, there is nobody on this list that I wouldn't be willing to have pizza and beer with, but there are probably many who wouldn't want to associate suchly with me. > (especially since I don't drink beer or eat pizza). Think of it as also being figurative. I enjoy talking to everybody here. We may call each other on any mistakes made (Hi, Dan!), but we still like each other. I won't be going to VCF-UK, and have even had to miss LOCAL VCFs! But, find each other and have a pint. Because I'm not going to be there, I am not offering to buy. (Prices have probably gone up since the days of "A pint's a pound, the world around") > Something to think about for sure; I may end up actually thanking Evan one > day for finally showing me the light. Even if I were to start actively giving all of this crap away, there would still be a lot left when I die. Rather than risk a Maslin, I've asked my executioner (and I intend to add it as a codicil) to make every effort to get hold of this list, Sellam, and Tony to "get rid of all that useless obsolete crap" (her words). She would be willing to mail the Tessina to Tony, but if he wants the Epson QX10 (I need to confirm where it is) or the Linhof, then he will have to get actively involved in the shipping. Now, maybe THAT will get Tony out of the house :-), but I won't live to see it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 26 14:21:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:21:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 26, 10 03:01:21 pm Message-ID: > Recall that Tony has a history of being an ungrateful schmuck when it > comes to VCF. Go back in the archives maybe five or six years - it was > with one of Sellam's events. There is also a history of BP museum > bashing. Have you ever visted BP? Have you ever volunteered and worked there? If not, how the heck can you know that their policies are so great? -tony From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed May 26 14:33:20 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:33:20 -0500 Subject: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 25, Message-ID: Here you go Tony: The rs-xxx standards are what I think you are referring to, rs-170 is NTSC line rates http://www.epanorama.net/links/videosignal.html Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 26 14:50:21 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 12:50:21 -0700 Subject: TNMOC restorations (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK?) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFAFAA9.7010801@virgin.net> from "Nigel Bailey" at May 24, 10 11:16:09 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 10:42 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > [snip] > > I juut hope it's changed a lot in the last few years. However reading > the > report of the restoration of the air traffic control PDP11s in Computer > Ressrection did not fill me with any confidence at all. > > -tony I'm curious, what aspect(s) of the restoration concerned you? I was there a bit over a month ago and it appears to be in good - and running - condition, in a warm and dry place surrounded by people who understand it and care about it. -- Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 26 15:18:17 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 15:18:17 -0500 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> References: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt> <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:21 PM 5/26/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >But, find each other and have a pint. Because I'm not going to be there, >I am not offering to buy. (Prices have probably gone up since the days of >"A pint's a pound, the world around") Wikipedia says "The saying "a pint's a pound the world around" refers to 16 US fluid ounces of water weighing approximately one pound avoirdupois in the United States... In the rest of the English-speaking world, an Imperial pint?being 20 Imperial ounces of water?will weigh one and a quarter pounds." You think it has to do with price? And am I the only one who notices that Tony's typos increase in his evening? :-) - John From ragooman at comcast.net Wed May 26 15:32:45 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:32:45 -0400 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: <4BFD3C68.8070404@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BFD3C68.8070404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BFD856D.5010507@comcast.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Sometimes simplicity is nice -- the lack of flashy graphics lets you > concentrate on playing the game. I love Lunar Lander and Asteroids > (and would love it even more if I could get my paws on a boardset for > either one, working or otherwise)... > I have some Asteroids boards here, but not working I only have one that's running at the moment here. Some are mssing the Xtal, as they mounted this upright and it always breaks--but they have other problems than this that will need some troubleshooting--something more that I keep running out of time for. You could have one, just send a few bucks for my time and shipping. I just need to find a box to ship this. My wish is someday to get a bigger display , say a 25" tube. =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From RichA at vulcan.com Wed May 26 15:50:02 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 13:50:02 -0700 Subject: Pints, Pounds, and Prices [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> References: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt> <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 12:22 PM > I won't be going to VCF-UK, and have even had to miss LOCAL VCFs! > But, find each other and have a pint. Because I'm not going to be > there, I am not offering to buy. (Prices have probably gone up > since the days of "A pint's a pound, the world around") Fred, That saying refers to weight, not price, and is American to boot--the British pint is 20oz, not 16. There is a similar rhyme there, the which I don't recall off hand. (Wait, maybe I do: "A pint of water weighs a pound and a quarter", innit?) But yes, a pint will probably run you GBP2.50-4.00 ($DEITY, I miss L/s/d), based on what Ian and I were paying last month. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 26 15:53:35 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:53:35 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt> <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:18 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 02:21 PM 5/26/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >>But, find each other and have a pint. ?Because I'm not going to be there, >>I am not offering to buy. ?(Prices have probably gone up since the days of >>"A pint's a pound, the world around") > > Wikipedia says "The saying "a pint's a pound the world around" refers to > 16 US fluid ounces of water weighing approximately one pound avoirdupois > in the United States... ?In the rest of the English-speaking world, an > Imperial pint?eing 20 Imperial ounces of water?ill weigh one and a > quarter pounds." All true, but in terms of the price, when I was at school in the UK for a Summer, a pint of lager was 95p, a pint of bitters was a more affordable 87p. A mate of mine (who is slightly younger than I) was shocked that I'd ever been able to buy beer for under "a pound a pint", 'cause he never had. I in turn was shocked on my last visit to London (2005) to see prices approaching *three* pounds for a pint. I do regret that I won't be able to attend VCF-UK - between not yet having seen BP, and missing out on the chance to grab a pint and curry (and, of course, missing the great face-to-face interaction that happens at a VCF or a Hamfest or whatever). We have beer and Indian food in Ohio, but it's not the same. Have fun folks, -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 26 15:57:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 13:57:31 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net>, <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2010 at 15:18, John Foust wrote: > Wikipedia says "The saying "a pint's a pound the world around" refers > to 16 US fluid ounces of water weighing approximately one pound > avoirdupois in the United States... In the rest of the > English-speaking world, an Imperial pint-being 20 Imperial ounces of > water-will weigh one and a quarter pounds." Exactly the rule of thumb I learned it as a kid. To this day, it has told me that a 250 gallon tank filled with water sitting in the back of my pickup weighs about a ton, plus whatever the (PVC) tank weighs. A little 50 gallon water-filled tank weighs more than 400 lbs. ...another rule of "thumb" is that the distance from the tip of your thumb to the knuckle is about an inch. In my case, it's more accurate than "three barleycorns, dry and round" from my pantry, which measured only about 3/4 of an inch. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 26 16:00:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:00:39 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: , <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET>, Message-ID: <4BFD2987.2627.F7E7DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2010 at 16:53, Ethan Dicks wrote: > All true, but in terms of the price, when I was at school in the UK > for a Summer, a pint of lager was 95p, a pint of bitters was a more > affordable 87p. A mate of mine (who is slightly younger than I) was > shocked that I'd ever been able to buy beer for under "a pound a > pint", 'cause he never had. I in turn was shocked on my last visit to > London (2005) to see prices approaching *three* pounds for a pint. When was the last time you could buy 100 16d nails for 16 pence? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 26 16:07:25 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt> <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100526140003.N56313@shell.lmi.net> > >"A pint's a pound, the world around") On Wed, 26 May 2010, John Foust wrote: > Wikipedia says "The saying "a pint's a pound the world around" refers to > 16 US fluid ounces of water weighing approximately one pound avoirdupois > in the United States... In the rest of the English-speaking world, an > Imperial pint?being 20 Imperial ounces of water?will weigh one and a > quarter pounds." > You think it has to do with price? So, the saying is referring to some bizarre obscure obsolete arcane measure of weight and volume, and nothing to do with drink and price?? I'm disappointed. I didn't think that there was a price regulation, but wouldn't it make more sense to base a currency on beer, instead of gold? > And am I the only one who notices that Tony's typos increase in > his evening? :-) Well, by midnight around here, the font starts to get a bit fuzzy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed May 26 16:17:14 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:17:14 -0500 Subject: asteroids board Message-ID: Hi Dan, If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in! I can fix the others too, if you wish. The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300. Wells Gardner if I recall. Here's a interesting page on the vector generator... http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm Randy Dawson _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed May 26 16:32:38 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <850882.95993.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too. ________________________________ From: Randy Dawson To: classic computers Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 4:17:14 PM Subject: asteroids board Hi Dan, If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in! I can fix the others too, if you wish. The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300. Wells Gardner if I recall. Here's a interesting page on the vector generator... http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm Randy Dawson _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed May 26 16:41:38 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:41:38 -0500 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: <850882.95993.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: , <850882.95993.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: been there, done that. and yep, Z axis too. Hey for fun, here is a scope clock kit, I just built one and its great. Now I have $25,000 (1970's price) Textronix 7000 series clock..... http://www.dutchtronix.com/ScopeClock.htm Randy > Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:32:38 -0700 > From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net > Subject: Re: asteroids board > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Randy Dawson > To: classic computers > Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 4:17:14 PM > Subject: asteroids board > > > Hi Dan, > > If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in! > > I can fix the others too, if you wish. > > The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300. > > Wells Gardner if I recall. > > Here's a interesting page on the vector generator... > > http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm > > Randy Dawson > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed May 26 16:56:28 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 17:56:28 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFD990C.9040704@sbcglobal.net> > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 15:01:21 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > ? ? ? ?Really? Must've missed that part. > > Recall that Tony has a history of being an ungrateful schmuck when it > comes to VCF. Go back in the archives maybe five or six years - it was > with one of Sellam's events. There is also a history of BP museum > bashing. Okay, I'll amend my comment to "I don't recall" him coming across as ungrateful; and I don't remember an incident regarding VFC Sellam & Tony.. Maybe before I joined the list? > > ? ? ? ?Perhaps, he may have; but after being a member of this list > > for a few > > years now, I highly doubt that what is happened. I have never seen > > _any_ > > evidence on this list of Tony being an ego-maniac, as you seen to be > > trying > > to paint him as. > > Hmm... I'll take that as a disagreement... There may have been a message or 3 where he was egotistical, but I don't remember the messages exactly. They must've been few & far enough in between for them to not give me a bad opinion of him. I try to judge people on thier overall history average. Good people do stupid things occasionally, and I'm sure even Charles Manson was nice once. > > ? ? ? ?Enough is enough already. > > Yes, if the museum bashing were to stop and some certain people just > came clean, it would be great. > > Not going to happen... Unfortunately, you are right. Humans are imperfect, and amazing creatures of habit. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 26 16:11:38 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 22:11:38 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 References: Message-ID: <00bc01cafd1f$22591f40$7265610a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2010 9:35 PM Subject: Re: Pravetz 82 > > > I'm pretty sure they're the same in practice -- and in any case neither > > > PAL nor SECAM mandate the resolution, only the colour coding. > > > > > > > Really? > > Really. > > Checking my somewhat old list of _broadcast_ TV systems used around the > world, I can find PAL used with both 525 and 625 lines. NTSC was only > used with 525 lines nad SECAM with 625. > > But those are the _broadcast_ standards. There is nothing to stop you > making a device with RS-170 (525 lines, 60 Hz vertical) using SECAM > colour encoding. Or a 625 line system using NTSC colour encoding. Or for > that matter any (odd) numbr of lines that you like. Ok. thanks for the info. Just one more question; why only an odd number of lines? > > > > > The *cough* website I looked at listed specific resolutions for each > > (including NTSC). Perhaps the site had some misleading information? (don't > > ask for an URL, it's been too long) > > There is a lot of very good information on the web, but alas there's a > lot of misleasing and downright wrong infroation out there too. > > -tony Yeah, and as the web expands theres only going to get more good and bad information online :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 26 17:04:22 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:04:22 -0400 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: <850882.95993.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > been there, done that. ?and yep, Z axis too. > > Hey for fun, here is a scope clock kit, I just built one and its great. ?Now I have $25,000 (1970's price) Textronix 7000 series clock..... > > http://www.dutchtronix.com/ScopeClock.htm I built one of those - http://www.dutchtronix.com/images/dutchtronix_v3a_q.jpg - I love it. -ethan From james at machineroom.info Wed May 26 15:12:37 2010 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 21:12:37 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Cray-1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_?= =?windows-1252?Q?eBay_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/05/24/cray_1_gate_module_ebay/ > > I'm kinda surprised nobody bid on this: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CPU-module-Cray-1-Serial-No-1-1st-supercomputer-/260600179087?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_VintageComputing_RL&hash=item3cacfb298f > > Item number: 260600179087 > Item location: Didcot, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom > Maybe someone from Bletchly should try contacting the seller about > putting it on display? > > And here's the other: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Super-Rare-CRAY-1-GATE-CPU-Board-2-planes-LAST-ONE-/140408191311?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b0faf94f#ht_2336wt_1092 > > Item number: 140408191311 > Item location: Jupiter, Florida, United States > > Then again, they probably aren't worth that much, are they; since > they are only a small part of the Cray.... > Had he started the auction at a sensible price and let the market decide it's true worth, I may well have. I actually find the whole artefact market a little sad. I had a Cray-3 memory module for a while (now with Jim Austin) and whilst you can admire the engineering that went into such a thing you can never actually do anything with it. It would be nice to think one day that SN1, or one of the Cray-3 (or even -4?) systems could be put back together though that probably won?t happen for a long time. James From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 26 18:29:45 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 16:29:45 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: , <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt>, <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net>, <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: > From: jfoust at threedee.com > > At 02:21 PM 5/26/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > >But, find each other and have a pint. Because I'm not going to be there, > >I am not offering to buy. (Prices have probably gone up since the days of > >"A pint's a pound, the world around") > > Wikipedia says "The saying "a pint's a pound the world around" refers to > 16 US fluid ounces of water weighing approximately one pound avoirdupois > in the United States... In the rest of the English-speaking world, an > Imperial pint?being 20 Imperial ounces of water?will weigh one and a > quarter pounds." > > You think it has to do with price? > > And am I the only one who notices that Tony's typos increase in > his evening? :-) > Hi Continuing the off topic: When I ran my Rover TC2000 until almost empty, I found that the tank was Imperial gallons and not US. As for Tony, he can do what ever he likes and doesn't owe anyone an explanation as to why he doesn't want to go. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 26 18:35:44 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:35:44 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Cray=2D1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_eBay_=95_The_Regi?= =?windows-1252?Q?ster?= In-Reply-To: <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> Message-ID: > It would be nice to think one day > that SN1, or one of the Cray-3 (or even -4?) systems could be put back > together though that probably won?t happen for a long time. I thought CRAY-1 #1 is sitting at the Chippewa Falls museum? That is the one that bounced around, finally ending its working days in the UK, correct? -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 26 20:00:13 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Cray-1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_eBay_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> It would be nice to think one day >> that SN1, or one of the Cray-3 (or even -4?) systems could be put back >> together though that probably won?t happen for a long time. > > I thought CRAY-1 #1 is sitting at the Chippewa Falls museum? That is > the one that bounced around, finally ending its working days in the > UK, correct? Did anyone ever come up with an emulation of the Cray-1? I'm interested in seeing what working with these machines was like prior to UNICOS. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 26 20:32:46 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:32:46 -0700 Subject: CNC nitwittery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFDCBBE.2020405@brouhaha.com> David Griffith wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone here has access to a CNC machine. The thing > is a smooth elongated toroid about the size of a little finger with a > small side hole. > Strange. That doesn't sound like any CNC machine I've ever heard of. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 26 20:36:48 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:36:48 -0700 Subject: television standards (was Re: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFC4F6D.7050507@dunnington.plus.com> <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFC93B6.8040604@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BFDCCB0.80708@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > There were also tests of 625/25 with NTSC-like colour encoding using a > 4.4296875 MHz subcarrier, and while that was never adopted as a > broadcast standard, it is sometimes seen as a baseband signal and > referred to colloquially as "NTSC-4.43". Bj?rn wrote: > I have seen NTSC-4.43 used on transatlantic satellite links as late as > the mid 90's. Interesting. I suppose I should have written "terrestrial broadcast standard". Typically government regulations limit what standards you can use for terrestrial broadcast or direct broadcast from satellite, but anything goes for other satellite transmission. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 26 20:42:41 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:42:41 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: <4BFD3C68.8070404@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BFD3C68.8070404@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BFDCE11.3060105@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Sometimes simplicity is nice -- the lack of flashy graphics lets you > concentrate on playing the game. Carried to its logical extreme by (most) Infocom games, as they proudly explained in their "We stick our graphics where the sun don't shine" advertising campaign with the illustration of a glowing brain: http://www.atarimania.com/pubs/hi_res/pub_infocom.jpg "You'll never see Infocom's graphics on any computer screen. Because there's never been a computer built by man that could handle the images we produce. And, there never will be. "We draw our graphics from the limitless imagery of your imagination--a technology so powerful, it makes any picture that's ever come out of a screen look like graffiti by comparison." Unfortunately they seem to have forgotten that not too many years later. Sigh. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 26 20:47:07 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:47:07 -0700 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFDCF1B.9070100@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > While there exist other unofficial NTSC-related systems such as the > so-called "NTSC-J" and "NTSC 4.43", these are NOT part of the NTSC > standard. While it is possible to use NTSC-compatible color encoding > with different scanning parameters, the result is *not* NTSC. > Tony Duell wrote: > True, but what should it be called? I don't have any opposition to calling a signal "NTSC 4.43", as long as one is aware that this is purely a defacto designation and doesn't correspond to any actual standard (especially NTSC). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 26 21:00:30 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:00:30 -0700 Subject: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFC6820.4030309@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 25, Message-ID: <4BFDD23E.4090006@brouhaha.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > Here you go Tony: > > The rs-xxx standards are what I think you are referring to, rs-170 is NTSC line rates > > http://www.epanorama.net/links/videosignal.html > Aside from the fact that RS-170 is a monochrome 525/30 signal (15750 Hz horizontal). Perhaps you meant RS-170A, which is very close to NTSC: color 525/29.97, (15734 Hz horizontal). The actual NTSC standard is contained in 47 CFR 73 Subpart E "Television Broadcast Stations", the most relevant portions of which are 47 CFR 73.682 and selected figures from 47 CFR 73.699. Eric From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed May 26 21:01:09 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 21:01:09 -0500 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: , <850882.95993.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <69528055-C096-4C37-9883-B0AAB3A4F3E0@bellsouth.net> I had a Tempest and Asteroids Deluxe machines for a little while. Vector games are fun to work on. On May 26, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > been there, done that. and yep, Z axis too. > > Hey for fun, here is a scope clock kit, I just built one and its great. Now I have $25,000 (1970's price) Textronix 7000 series clock..... > > http://www.dutchtronix.com/ScopeClock.htm > > Randy > >> Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 14:32:38 -0700 >> From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net >> Subject: Re: asteroids board >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too. >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Randy Dawson >> To: classic computers >> Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 4:17:14 PM >> Subject: asteroids board >> >> >> Hi Dan, >> >> If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in! >> >> I can fix the others too, if you wish. >> >> The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300. >> >> Wells Gardner if I recall. >> >> Here's a interesting page on the vector generator... >> >> http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm >> >> Randy Dawson >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. >> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed May 26 21:13:07 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 22:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: <850882.95993.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I built one of those - > http://www.dutchtronix.com/images/dutchtronix_v3a_q.jpg - I love it. Same here. I had mine at VCF East 6.0 hooked to a Tektronix 608, but it died after an hour so I connected it to my Tektronix 485. http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2009/IMG_0520-L.jpg http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2009/IMG_0521-L.jpg http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/VCF-East2009/IMG_0522-L.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 26 21:28:44 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:28:44 -0600 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 26 May 2010 18:42:41 -0700. <4BFDCE11.3060105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4BFDCE11.3060105 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Carried to its logical extreme by (most) Infocom games [...] > > Unfortunately they seem to have forgotten that not too many years later. > Sigh. Zork: Grand Inquisitor was fun, but it seemed to be too late to make a difference. Everything after that just seems to be a retread of old stuff. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 26 21:38:06 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 19:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CNC nitwittery In-Reply-To: <4BFDCBBE.2020405@brouhaha.com> References: <4BFDCBBE.2020405@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 2010, Eric Smith wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> >> I was wondering if anyone here has access to a CNC machine. The thing is a >> smooth elongated toroid about the size of a little finger with a small side >> hole. >> > Strange. That doesn't sound like any CNC machine I've ever heard of. No. That's the gizmo I'm trying to get made. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hachti at hachti.de Wed May 26 21:42:37 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 04:42:37 +0200 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFDDC1D.8090800@hachti.de> On 25.05.2010 22:08, Tony Duell wrote: > machine rather than under emulattion, though. And how you would keep the > original machine going if you don't ever want to repair it. > Unfortunately, as far as I know there are no repair services for classic > computers, so you virtually have to do it yourself. Oh, there are! I had one of my 8/Ls checked and repaired a bit by DEC field service last year! This is in the repair lab (aka basement): http://picasaweb.google.com/iraeus/20091129Holm#5413177027537368738 The 8/L on the test-bench: http://picasaweb.google.com/iraeus/20091129Holm#5413177056014429682 The front panel aside - note the carefully chosen underground for the precious part! http://picasaweb.google.com/iraeus/20091129Holm#5413177050736119522 And yes, this all is true. Mr. Holm was a DEC field engineer. Specialist for pdp10 and 8 systems. Mainly the pdp10 here in Kiel. He has great technical knowledge and tracked down some instabilities in my machine. For him those machines are still "machines to repair" - not collectables. You can see that in the pictures as well... Regards, Philipp :-) P.S.: I have enough switches. -- http://www.hachti.de From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 26 22:48:52 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 20:48:52 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Cray-1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_?= =?windows-1252?Q?eBay_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4BFDEBA4.3060407@bitsavers.org> On 5/26/10 6:00 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Did anyone ever come up with an emulation of the Cray-1? Someone was working on one. The problem is there appears to be no software that has survived. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 27 00:50:08 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 22:50:08 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Cray-1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_?= =?windows-1252?Q?eBay_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4BFE0810.3090008@brouhaha.com> David Griffith wrote: > Did anyone ever come up with an emulation of the Cray-1? I'm > interested in seeing what working with these machines was like prior > to UNICOS. Partially written, but not completed due to the lack of any Cray-1 software to run on it. Eric From ragooman at comcast.net Thu May 27 01:15:02 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 02:15:02 -0400 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFE0DE6.7050801@comcast.net> Randy Dawson wrote: > Hi Dan, > > If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in! > ok, no prob. I'll have to look for a second box first. > I can fix the others too, if you wish. > I could use another one repaired, just so I have a standby when I need to troubleshoot anything. If you don't mind, I like to trade you one for fixing one of mine. > The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300. > Wells Gardner if I recall. > Here's a interesting page on the vector generator... > http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.ht I like that wepbage, I haven't found that before I currently use these for reference. http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroidsrepair.html http://andysarcade.de/asteroids.html Then there's this one that went offline that I was hoping that somebody has it mirrored. The internet archive has this but without the images http://web.archive.org/web/20071110130808/gls1electronics.com/atari/asteroids/index.htm I have access to several atari vector monitors too, they need work of course, but I noticed that most of them have either the X or Y deflection boards that are bad on these, which can be rather straight forward to repair. Ethan Dicks wrote: > I would love to have an Asteroids board. A friend of mine has a Lunar > Lander that might need some tube work (I think he told me that when he > hooks the outputs to an oscilloscope, the logic section all works), so > it might encourage the both of us to get something fixed up. > > Sure, no prob. I'll have to check on the box and weight and let you know about the shipping costs still, all I'm asking is $20 for the board--I hope it doesn't matter which rev it is, I have to check what's all here int he box again. I have PayPal too. I recall that the boards have various problems besides the xtal - which I swapped between boards for testing. The Xtal is 12.096mhz, I found these at Mouser for 50cents #520-HCA1209-SX. I use my Tek scope and LA mainly for repair but I could use some tips on fixing these. I found some good webpages about repairing these that really help. I'm in the middle of building an in-circuit TTL chip tester using a microcontroller that should speed things up, but is slow going at the moment due to family priorities. I'm curious what other diagnostic tools you might have for these boards. Eric Smith wrote: > Carried to its logical extreme by (most) Infocom games, as they > proudly explained in their "We stick our graphics where the sun don't > shine" advertising campaign with the illustration of a glowing brain: > > http://www.atarimania.com/pubs/hi_res/pub_infocom.jpg That reminds me of a little joke from over the years. How do you tell if the computer game is vintage ? When the graphics on the cabinet/box look better than the game itself :) =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu May 27 01:20:10 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 23:20:10 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> Clay Archer wrote: > I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring a Tek 4051 recently. > I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still have some > documentation, and I found other manuals on bitsavers.org but have not > located any software. Do you know of any source on-line? I found > references on this site (Feb. 2009) from other users talking about > building an archive of software for the 4051. > > I have keyed in a few short programs to test the vector graphics, but it > would be nice to have the original standard pack tape programs. Even > printouts would be helpful. I recall when I last used a 4051 back in > the early '80's we had the ability to dump & load programs using the > serial port, and the ability to un-secret the programs. If I can find > this information again I would be glad to provide it to help build a > software library for this fantastic system. > > > > Thanks, > > C. Archer > I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over a serial port or the GPIB bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in progress (progress being very slow at the moment) based on disassembling the system ROMs and going through the service manuals. I recently came into possession of the actual source code for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche, which I've passed on to Al for archiving. Looking forward to reading through those once he's done! I'm hoping that once I work out enough to write a basic emulation, I'll know enough about the hardware to write some assembly code for the real 4051 to allow raw dumps of 4051 tapes (and hopefully writing them back!). But I have a few other things stealing time from me at the moment, so it won't be in the near future... Josh From andy at flirble.org Thu May 27 02:56:27 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 08:56:27 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100527075627.GA21209@plum.flirble.org> On (14:53 26/05/10), MikeS wrote: > Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 11:40:05 +0100 > From: Andrew Back > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? > > On (05:45 26/05/10), RodSmallwood wrote: > > >>Will somebody who knows these people explain what they have done and at > >>least get an apology for Tony. > > >What an absurd suggestion and one that speaks volumes. > > >Regards, > > >Andrew > ----------- > Yes, that a suggestion to hear an actual reasoned response to Tony's (and > others') observations and experiences instead of just dismissing them with > childish name-calling, word-twisting and insults is considered "absurd" does > indeed speak volumes.... A kangaroo court appeared to have decided that Tony was due an apology from Bletchley and that one must be sought, and that is precisely what is absurd. Unilateral judgement had been made as to who was in the right and who in the wrong, based on anecdote and the notion that one party was educated in The One True Way, whilst the other was clearly an inferior. Assumed superiority and blind faith. Enough said. A. -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu May 27 05:26:39 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 05:26:39 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> References: , <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 23:20:10 -0700 > From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu > To: > Subject: Re: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... > > Clay Archer wrote: > > I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring a Tek 4051 recently. > > I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still have some > > documentation, and I found other manuals on bitsavers.org but have not > > located any software. Do you know of any source on-line? I found > > references on this site (Feb. 2009) from other users talking about > > building an archive of software for the 4051. > > > > I have keyed in a few short programs to test the vector graphics, but it > > would be nice to have the original standard pack tape programs. Even > > printouts would be helpful. I recall when I last used a 4051 back in > > the early '80's we had the ability to dump & load programs using the > > serial port, and the ability to un-secret the programs. If I can find > > this information again I would be glad to provide it to help build a > > software library for this fantastic system. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > C. Archer > > > I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over a serial port or the > GPIB bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in progress > (progress being very slow at the moment) based on disassembling the > system ROMs and going through the service manuals. I recently came into > possession of the actual source code for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche, > which I've passed on to Al for archiving. Looking forward to reading > through those once he's done! > > I'm hoping that once I work out enough to write a basic emulation, I'll > know enough about the hardware to write some assembly code for the real > 4051 to allow raw dumps of 4051 tapes (and hopefully writing them > back!). But I have a few other things stealing time from me at the > moment, so it won't be in the near future... > > Josh I will dig around here and may be able to help with some friends on this. I am hooked up with a few ex Tek guys and located here near the Tek campus. We meet Friday nights for pizza and beer, talk ham radio and other geeky stuff. Also, there is an effort here to put together a museum and archive the efforts of this wonderful company: http://vintagetek.org/ Needless to say Tektronix is not cooperating. They have been purchased by a conglomerate and don't seem to care too much about history. Our local electronics store (Norvac) was cleaning out their back room and I got my hands on this bookshelf set of Tek manuals: 4050 Series Graphics System Reference Manual (This one covers the BASIC interpreter syntax, and a few examples) 4051 Preliminary Service Manual (This one has some really well done cartoon hand drawings, nice flow charts, and schematics) T4002 Graphics computer Terminal (3" thick and looks complete, users manual, service manual and a section on DEC interface options to PDP-8, 4803 interface unit) If this material is not up already, whats the recommended workflow, to get these into Bitsavers or the BAMA archive ? Questions like recommended scan resolution, output to pdf or general comments from others who have done this. Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu May 27 05:55:54 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 05:55:54 -0500 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: <4BFE0DE6.7050801@comcast.net> References: , <4BFE0DE6.7050801@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 02:15:02 -0400 > From: ragooman at comcast.net > To: > Subject: Re: asteroids board > > > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > Hi Dan, > > > > If you still want to get rid of an non working asteroids board, count me in! > > > ok, no prob. I'll have to look for a second box first. > > > I can fix the others too, if you wish. > > > I could use another one repaired, just so I have a standby when I need > to troubleshoot anything. > If you don't mind, I like to trade you one for fixing one of mine. > > > The problem for most folks is that they will need a vector type monitor, thats a little harder to find, but I see them out there for about $300. > > Wells Gardner if I recall. > > Here's a interesting page on the vector generator... > > http://jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.ht > I like that wepbage, I haven't found that before > I currently use these for reference. > http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroidsrepair.html > http://andysarcade.de/asteroids.html > Then there's this one that went offline that I was hoping that somebody > has it mirrored. > The internet archive has this but without the images > http://web.archive.org/web/20071110130808/gls1electronics.com/atari/asteroids/index.htm > > I have access to several atari vector monitors too, they need work of > course, but I noticed that most of them have either the X or Y > deflection boards that are bad on these, which can be rather straight > forward to repair. > > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I would love to have an Asteroids board. A friend of mine has a Lunar > > Lander that might need some tube work (I think he told me that when he > > hooks the outputs to an oscilloscope, the logic section all works), so > > it might encourage the both of us to get something fixed up. > > > > > > > Sure, no prob. I'll have to check on the box and weight and let you know > about the shipping costs still, all I'm asking is $20 for the board--I > hope it doesn't matter which rev it is, I have to check what's all here > int he box again. I have PayPal too. I recall that the boards have > various problems besides the xtal - which I swapped between boards for > testing. The Xtal is 12.096mhz, I found these at Mouser for 50cents > #520-HCA1209-SX. > > I use my Tek scope and LA mainly for repair but I could use some tips on > fixing these. I found some good webpages about repairing these that > really help. I'm in the middle of building an in-circuit TTL chip tester > using a microcontroller that should speed things up, but is slow going > at the moment due to family priorities. I'm curious what other > diagnostic tools you might have for these boards. > > Eric Smith wrote: > > Carried to its logical extreme by (most) Infocom games, as they > > proudly explained in their "We stick our graphics where the sun don't > > shine" advertising campaign with the illustration of a glowing brain: > > > > http://www.atarimania.com/pubs/hi_res/pub_infocom.jpg > > That reminds me of a little joke from over the years. > How do you tell if the computer game is vintage ? > When the graphics on the cabinet/box look better than the game itself :) > > > =Dan > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ > > Hi Dan, I don't have any diagnostic tools other than a scope. I could not imagine hooking up a logic analyzer to debug a known good circuit, that's reserved for development. (I have a 7D01 LA for my scope, but no probes. (Ahh, ebay acquisition and so it sits on the shelf) Having a working, and a non working board is the fastest way to find the issue, power them both up on the bench and cross probe between the two. Im guessin that were looking for a stuck node, a failed gate somewhere or a solder joint that has given up. Remember, it was working at one time... I have a few goofy tricks that have saved some time, like just feel across the ics, sometimes a failed part is much hotter than the rest. I am looking at your links on the schematics, might it be fun to schematic capture these and simulate them (its my current passion, PSPICE A/D and AMS). I could probably get these into Orcad Capture or Concept HDL in a weekend. Then set up a stimulus file for a hello world vector draw... Are the jpegs on http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroids_sheet2_sidea.jpg the best we got? They are kind of fuzzy... Randy _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 27 09:24:10 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 07:24:10 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: , <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4BFE808A.7090308@bitsavers.org> On 5/27/10 3:26 AM, Randy Dawson wrote: > If this material is not up already, whats the recommended workflow, to get these into Bitsavers or the BAMA archive ? I prefer 400/600 dpi bi-tonal group 4 fax encoded tiffs for text and 300dpi jpg for images for bitsavers. Bob Rosenbloom has a huge collection of 405x docs that he's promised to get to me when things calm down. The foldout pages in Tek service manuals really need a scanner capable of grayscale 11 x 20 something scanning to do a good job, which I have. From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 27 09:45:40 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 08:45:40 -0600 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 27 May 2010 07:24:10 -0700. <4BFE808A.7090308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4BFE808A.7090308 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > The foldout pages in Tek service manuals really need a scanner capable > of grayscale 11 x 20 something scanning to do a good job, which I have. Its possible to use a smaller scanner and an image stitching program to combine the individual scans into a single, larger raster image. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hachti at hachti.de Thu May 27 10:04:27 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 17:04:27 +0200 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFAFA58.6060603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4BFAE1EC.6080204@philpem.me.uk> <4BFAFA58.6060603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BFE89FB.3050405@hachti.de> On 25.05.2010 00:14, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Exactly what we do every year when we show a running PDP-8/E to > first-year CompSci students. And how do they disassemble the computer when there's something in the way?!? :P -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Thu May 27 10:05:30 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 17:05:30 +0200 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BFAFA58.6060603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BFE8A3A.6020807@hachti.de> > Don't stick your finger behind the ear of an RK06/RK06 positioner > right before removing power - your finger won't like becoming 3mm > thick. Only if the battery is still good :P -- http://www.hachti.de From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 27 10:16:54 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:16:54 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: <4BFE8A3A.6020807@hachti.de> References: <4BFAFA58.6060603@dunnington.plus.com> <4BFE8A3A.6020807@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> Don't stick your finger behind the ear of an RK06/RK06 positioner >> right before removing power - your finger won't like becoming 3mm >> thick. > > Only if the battery is still good :P Much like assuming mains are live or firearms are loaded, I'll assume the battery is good until proven otherwise. In the field, though, I rarely run across a good battery pack unless I've serviced the drive in the past few years. -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Thu May 27 10:34:01 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 17:34:01 +0200 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: <4BFAFA58.6060603@dunnington.plus.com> <4BFE8A3A.6020807@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BFE90E9.9040608@hachti.de> On 27.05.2010 17:16, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> >>> Don't stick your finger behind the ear of an RK06/RK06 positioner >>> right before removing power - your finger won't like becoming 3mm >>> thick. >> >> Only if the battery is still good :P > > Much like assuming mains are live or firearms are loaded, I'll assume > the battery is good until proven otherwise. > > In the field, though, I rarely run across a good battery pack unless > I've serviced the drive in the past few years. The "best" I've seen so far is some tries to move the head a bit. Force just enough to feel while pulling out the carrier... I wonder if the batteries are recharged by the drive... Did not really look at that part of the schematics yet. My focus was more on servo adjustment - up to now. -- http://www.hachti.de From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 27 12:30:51 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 13:30:51 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Cray-1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_?= =?windows-1252?Q?eBay_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4BFDEBA4.3060407@bitsavers.org> References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> <4BFDEBA4.3060407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BFEAC4B.3080608@neurotica.com> On 5/26/10 11:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Did anyone ever come up with an emulation of the Cray-1? > > Someone was working on one. > The problem is there appears to be no software that has survived. Especially by it's being an attached processor, nearly all Cray-1 software (save for things like libraries) would be specific to whatever front-end system was in use. Further, much of it was purpose-built by the people using the machines. I'm wondering if Cray themselves (current incarnation) might still have COS lying around on tape somewhere. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 27 13:24:31 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:24:31 -0700 Subject: Cray-1 resurfaces in pieces on eBay * The Register In-Reply-To: <4BFEAC4B.3080608@neurotica.com> References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> <4BFDEBA4.3060407@bitsavers.org> <4BFEAC4B.3080608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 10:31 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Cray-1 resurfaces in pieces on eBay * The Register > > On 5/26/10 11:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Did anyone ever come up with an emulation of the Cray-1? > > > > Someone was working on one. > > The problem is there appears to be no software that has survived. > > Especially by it's being an attached processor, nearly all Cray-1 > software (save for things like libraries) would be specific to whatever > front-end system was in use. Further, much of it was purpose-built by > the people using the machines. > > I'm wondering if Cray themselves (current incarnation) might still > have COS lying around on tape somewhere. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL A few years ago, I thought about buying a Y-MP on ePay. I worked in the same building as the Cray Research office in Seattle, and asked them about software for non-commercial use. They categorically shut me down. The license wasn't even available for money, I was told. YMMV.... -- Ian PS: I bought a VAX 6600 instead. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu May 27 13:41:37 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 11:41:37 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Cray-1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_?= =?windows-1252?Q?eBay_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4BFEAC4B.3080608@neurotica.com> References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> <4BFDEBA4.3060407@bitsavers.org> <4BFEAC4B.3080608@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BFEBCE1.5030601@brouhaha.com> On 05/27/2010 10:30 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Especially by it's being an attached processor, nearly all Cray-1 > software (save for things like libraries) would be specific to whatever > front-end system was in use. Not usually. The operating system needs to know a little bit about what's connected to the I/O channels (including the front-end systems), but user-space software, including applications, normally relies on operating system services from COS or UniCOS running natively on the main CPU. Application software didn't normally interact directly with the front-end systems any more than than application software on IBM mainframes interacts with the mainframe's service processor. The front-end systems were there to boot and manage the system and provide I/O services for the operating system. Usually when sites upgraded from a Cray-1 to an XMP they didn't have to change their application software at all, even though the front end was completely different. According to the users I've spoken to, the majority of Cray-1 applications were Fortran programs submitted as batch jobs. Sometimes they substituted hand-optimized assembler for inner loops where CFT didn't vectorize the code sufficiently. > Further, much of it was purpose-built by > the people using the machines. > That was true of almost all application software on Crays in the early days. Later there were some commercial software packages that saw significant use on Crays, for things like finite element analysis, computational fluid dynamics, and various other types of simulations. > I'm wondering if Cray themselves (current incarnation) might still > have COS lying around on tape somewhere. > Doubtful given how many times they changed hands. Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 27 13:58:12 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:58:12 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Cray=2D1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_eBay_=95_The_Regi?= =?windows-1252?Q?ster?= In-Reply-To: <4BFEBCE1.5030601@brouhaha.com> References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> <4BFDEBA4.3060407@bitsavers.org> <4BFEAC4B.3080608@neurotica.com> <4BFEBCE1.5030601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > According to the users I've spoken to, the majority of Cray-1 applications > were Fortran programs submitted as batch jobs. I recall that at least one COMBOARD was used to submit FORTRAN jobs to a Cray. I don't know if the Cray spoke HASP natively or if there was non-Cray gear mediating the process, but as far as the end-users were concerned, they queued up a virtual card deck and, as if by magic, the Cray ran the job and returned the output to the simulated line printer. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 27 13:14:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:14:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at May 26, 10 02:33:20 pm Message-ID: > > > Here you go Tony: > > The rs-xxx standards are what I think you are referring to=2C rs-170 is NTS= > C line rates Err, not. I think you misuderstood me. RS-70 is, as far as I know, the spec of US TV rate video (525 lines, 60Hz. etc_), irrrespective of the colour encoding (if there's colour at all). What I am looking for is the neame for the colour encoding _only_ used in NTSC TV signals. In other words, if I decide to create a composite video signal with 819 lines, 50 Hz vertical, and colour encoded using QAM modulation with no alternate line phase switch, what can I call it? The line specification is easy, it's 'System E', but I can't strictly clal it NTSC colour. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 27 13:16:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:16:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: TNMOC restorations (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK?) In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at May 26, 10 12:50:21 pm Message-ID: > I'm curious, what aspect(s) of the restoration concerned you? I was there = > a bit over a month ago and it appears to be in good - and running - conditi= > on, in a warm and dry place surrounded by people who understand it and care= There's a difference between it running now, and the restoration methods :-) Have you read the report in Computer Resurextion? (This is the _only_ indformation I have seen on this project). There were a couple of things that really upset me... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 27 13:24:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:24:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <00bc01cafd1f$22591f40$7265610a@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 26, 10 10:11:38 pm Message-ID: > Ok. thanks for the info. Just one more question; why only an odd number of > lines? For resons of getting the best piture from the available bandwidth, all analouge broadcast TV systems use interlaced scanning. And that pretty much requires a 'half line' in every field, so a total of an odd number of lines. The sync pulses are prodcued, of course, but dividing down a master clock. And if you have an odd nymber of lines, you can't have a /2 (simple flip-flop) involved anywhre. It's interesting to see how the broadcast standfard were set up to use simple-ish divider chains 243 lines (very old UK standard) = 3^5 (so 5 cascaded /3 circuits) 405 lines (old UK System A) = 3^4*5 (replace one of those /3s with a /5) 525 lines (US system) = 3 * 5^2 * 7 625 lines (UK system) = 5^4 Of coruse the French had ot be a bit eccentric :-) They had a monochrome-only 819 line standard (System E). It involves a /13 circuit :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 27 13:26:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:26:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: <850882.95993.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at May 26, 10 02:32:38 pm Message-ID: > > For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y > mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too. Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering just what is 'triggered' ? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 27 13:10:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:10:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 26, 10 12:21:37 pm Message-ID: > > > >Like any show - computers, cars, dogs, model trains, stamps, sex toys > > >- always far more social than stuff-oriented. > > MOST hobbies, especially sex toys, are more fun with somebody else. Not that I know much about such things, but I was under the impression that having a suitable partner made some sex toys redundant. > But computers can be enjoyed in quiet isolation. Quiet? What with cooling fans, 'washing machine' disk drives, dot matrix printers and ASR33s? Surely you jest.... > > > >Just make sure you get enough pizzas and beer. > > When this thread started, Tony very politely bowed out of going with an > excuse ("mostly financial"). > We (I) were insensitive, and called him on his excuse, with offers to > handle the financial aspects. He did NOT gratuitously insult those > involved. > We PUSHED Tony to reveal his "real reasons", and eventually he did. Now > some people are grievously offended by why he feels that it would be > better not to go. > That was due to MY insensitivity, NOT Tony's manners. I wonder if this is a classic case of 'Be careful what you ask for. You might end up getting it' :-) > > Even if I were to start actively giving all of this crap away, there would I know the feeling. And it's not just the machines. There are boxes of spare parts, odd PCBs, manuals, my notebooks, etc. > still be a lot left when I die. Rather than risk a Maslin, I've asked my > executioner (and I intend to add it as a codicil) to make every effort to Err, don;t you mean executrix (female executor) here? > get hold of this list, Sellam, and Tony to "get rid of all that useless > obsolete crap" (her words). She would be willing to mail the Tessina to > Tony, but if he wants the Epson QX10 (I need to confirm where it is) or Thanks... But needelss to say I hope I never receive it (in that I hope you outlive me). As for the QX10, I do regard it as being one of the best CP/M machines ever produced. But I already have one. So again, thanks for the offer, but I am sure another collector is more deserving of it. > the Linhof, then he will have to get actively involved in the shipping. > > Now, maybe THAT will get Tony out of the house :-), but I won't live to > see it. I am not sure what you are trying to convince me to do here.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 27 14:25:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 20:25:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 27, 10 08:45:40 am Message-ID: > Its possible to use a smaller scanner and an image stitching program > to combine the individual scans into a single, larger raster image. But please be careful not to do what I've seen on some websites (not Bitsavers, I hasten to add). And that is to scan the schematic as 2 halves with no overlap. There is always some small bit cut off when this is done and by Murphy's law, the bit you lose is essential (like giving the order of connections of bus lines ot an IC, or part of a component value, or....). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 27 14:30:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 15:30:37 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Cray-1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_?= =?windows-1252?Q?eBay_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net> <4BFD80B5.7010002@machineroom.info> <4BFDEBA4.3060407@bitsavers.org> <4BFEAC4B.3080608@neurotica.com> <4BFEBCE1.5030601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BFEC85D.7050305@neurotica.com> On 5/27/10 2:58 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> According to the users I've spoken to, the majority of Cray-1 applications >> were Fortran programs submitted as batch jobs. > > I recall that at least one COMBOARD was used to submit FORTRAN jobs to > a Cray. I don't know if the Cray spoke HASP natively or if there was > non-Cray gear mediating the process, but as far as the end-users were > concerned, they queued up a virtual card deck and, as if by magic, the > Cray ran the job and returned the output to the simulated line > printer. I'd lay odds that that particular Cray was front-ended by an IBM machine that received and processed the HASP jobs, otherwise there'd be little point of doing it via HASP. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu May 27 14:33:33 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 14:33:33 -0500 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: <850882.95993.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: asteroids board > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:26:10 +0100 > > > > > For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y > > mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too. > > Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering just > what is 'triggered' ? > > -tony I think he meant to say Z-axis modulated, blank the trace between vector draw. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Thu May 27 14:49:37 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 12:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: <850882.95993.qm@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey Message-ID: <464817.94307.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> That's correct. ________________________________ From: Randy Dawson To: classic computers Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 2:33:33 PM Subject: RE: asteroids board > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: asteroids board > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:26:10 +0100 > > > > > For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y > > mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too. > > Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering just > what is 'triggered' ? > > -tony I think he meant to say Z-axis modulated, blank the trace between vector draw. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 27 14:49:56 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 12:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100527124132.R93655@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 27 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > But computers can be enjoyed in quiet isolation. > Quiet? What with cooling fans, 'washing machine' disk drives, dot matrix > printers and ASR33s? Surely you jest.... In this context, and with the current state of my cochlea, I meant it figuratively in terms of lack of interruptions, rather than the audiological meaning. > > We PUSHED Tony to reveal his "real reasons", and eventually he did. Now > I wonder if this is a classic case of 'Be careful what you ask for. You > might end up getting it' :-) It certainly was. > > still be a lot left when I die. Rather than risk a Maslin, I've asked my > > executioner (and I intend to add it as a codicil) to make every effort to > Err, don;t you mean executrix (female executor) here? . . . wait until you meet her > > get hold of this list, Sellam, and Tony to "get rid of all that useless > > obsolete crap" (her words). She would be willing to mail the Tessina to > > Tony, but if he wants the Epson QX10 (I need to confirm where it is) or > Thanks... But needelss to say I hope I never receive it (in that I hope > you outlive me). > . . . > I am not sure what you are trying to convince me to do here.. Outlive me, and lend a hand to "get rid of all that useless obsolete crap" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 27 15:11:55 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 13:11:55 -0700 Subject: TNMOC restorations (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK?) In-Reply-To: References: from "Ian King" at May 26, 10 12:50:21 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 11:16 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: TNMOC restorations (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK?) > > > I'm curious, what aspect(s) of the restoration concerned you? I was > there = > > a bit over a month ago and it appears to be in good - and running - > conditi= > > on, in a warm and dry place surrounded by people who understand it > and care= > > There's a difference between it running now, and the restoration > methods :-) > > Have you read the report in Computer Resurextion? (This is the _only_ > indformation I have seen on this project). There were a couple of > things > that really upset me... > I had previously heard this story directly from the gentlemen involved, pretty much verbatim. What do you find upsetting? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu May 27 15:23:58 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 22:23:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> References: <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 2010, Josh Dersch wrote: > I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over a serial port or the GPIB > bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in progress (progress > being very slow at the moment) based on disassembling the system ROMs and > going through the service manuals. I recently came into possession of the > actual source code for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche, which I've passed on to > Al for archiving. Looking forward to reading through those once he's done! > > I'm hoping that once I work out enough to write a basic emulation, I'll know > enough about the hardware to write some assembly code for the real 4051 to > allow raw dumps of 4051 tapes (and hopefully writing them back!). But I have > a few other things stealing time from me at the moment, so it won't be in the > near future... So the information on ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tek4051/ (I've already posted the link some time ago) is of no use? Funny, because I *did* write a working BASIC program to dump tapes into CBM 8050 disk files (I have that drive attached to our 4051 as you know). But I still have to transfer these files to some other system... (too much other things to do). Christian From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu May 27 15:55:08 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 13:55:08 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <3B04C456-5395-4372-9710-656AD9C55CE3@mail.msu.edu> On May 27, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 26 May 2010, Josh Dersch wrote: >> I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over a serial port or >> the GPIB bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in >> progress (progress being very slow at the moment) based on >> disassembling the system ROMs and going through the service >> manuals. I recently came into possession of the actual source code >> for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche, which I've passed on to Al for >> archiving. Looking forward to reading through those once he's done! >> >> I'm hoping that once I work out enough to write a basic emulation, >> I'll know enough about the hardware to write some assembly code for >> the real 4051 to allow raw dumps of 4051 tapes (and hopefully >> writing them back!). But I have a few other things stealing time >> from me at the moment, so it won't be in the near future... > > So the information on ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tek4051/ > (I've already posted the link some time ago) is of no use? Funny, > because I *did* write a working BASIC program to dump tapes into CBM > 8050 disk files (I have that drive attached to our 4051 as you > know). But I still have to transfer these files to some other > system... (too much other things to do). > > Christian > Uh, I apologize for however I appear to have slighted you? The information is useful, yes, but less useful to me, being in a language I do not speak (and Google translate does a fairly poor job on this stuff.) By all means, please do share your utility with the world. I don't quite understand the attitude here... Josh From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 27 15:29:05 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:29:05 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK References: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt><20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <00ad01cafde2$4a4b1030$98fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 9:18 PM Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK > At 02:21 PM 5/26/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > >But, find each other and have a pint. Because I'm not going to be there, > >I am not offering to buy. (Prices have probably gone up since the days of > >"A pint's a pound, the world around") > > Wikipedia says "The saying "a pint's a pound the world around" refers to > 16 US fluid ounces of water weighing approximately one pound avoirdupois > in the United States... In the rest of the English-speaking world, an > Imperial pint-being 20 Imperial ounces of water-will weigh one and a > quarter pounds." > > You think it has to do with price? > > And am I the only one who notices that Tony's typos increase in > his evening? :-) > No, but I know mine do :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu May 27 17:48:04 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 23:48:04 +0100 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: , <4BFE0DE6.7050801@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BFEF6A4.1090107@philpem.me.uk> On 27/05/10 11:55, Randy Dawson wrote: > Are the jpegs on > > http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroids_sheet2_sidea.jpg > > the best we got? They are kind of fuzzy... Mike's Arcade has scanned B&W PDF versions: You'll need to print the pages off and glue them together yourself though... Then there's the CityOfBerwyn archive: (search for "Asteroids") which has scanned, stitched TIFFs of all four schematic sheets *and* the Binary Rate Multiplier Bodge-Board, at an eye-wateringly high resolution. Lastly, there's Andy's Arcade, which has (colour?!) PDF scans: If you're planning on meddling with the Digital Vector Generator, read Jed Margolin's two articles on vector systems -- Secret Lives of XY Monitors, and Secret Lives of Vector Generators. My "Hitch-Hacker's Guide to the Atari Digital Vector Generator" might also be of some interest to you -- that's on my website under "Electronics". I've even got a Verilog implementation of the DVG logic and state machine, though it's never been tested in an FPGA. I'll put it online if anyone wants to take a peek (be warned: the code is Messy, Evil and was implicated -- though not formally charged -- in a case where a man was driven insane by its sheer messiness. You Have Been Warned.) Oh, then there's the CRT X-Y display I half-built but shelved a while ago (I shorted over one of the power buses and since then the trace has been very jittery). That's due for a bit of documentation-and-redesign work... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu May 27 22:19:45 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 23:19:45 -0400 Subject: Paging Richard Message-ID: <201005272319.45846.pat@computer-refuge.org> Sorry to eat up bits on the list, but I've tried sending you a few emails from two different addresses, but haven't seen any reply from you (re: the SGI Onyx XL). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu May 27 23:15:48 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 05:15:48 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100527124132.R93655@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100527124132.R93655@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Of course we could join TNMoC en-mass and do a Mike Holmes on it. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 27 May 2010 20:50 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK On Thu, 27 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > But computers can be enjoyed in quiet isolation. > Quiet? What with cooling fans, 'washing machine' disk drives, dot matrix > printers and ASR33s? Surely you jest.... In this context, and with the current state of my cochlea, I meant it figuratively in terms of lack of interruptions, rather than the audiological meaning. > > We PUSHED Tony to reveal his "real reasons", and eventually he did. Now > I wonder if this is a classic case of 'Be careful what you ask for. You > might end up getting it' :-) It certainly was. > > still be a lot left when I die. Rather than risk a Maslin, I've asked my > > executioner (and I intend to add it as a codicil) to make every effort to > Err, don;t you mean executrix (female executor) here? . . . wait until you meet her > > get hold of this list, Sellam, and Tony to "get rid of all that useless > > obsolete crap" (her words). She would be willing to mail the Tessina to > > Tony, but if he wants the Epson QX10 (I need to confirm where it is) or > Thanks... But needelss to say I hope I never receive it (in that I hope > you outlive me). > . . . > I am not sure what you are trying to convince me to do here.. Outlive me, and lend a hand to "get rid of all that useless obsolete crap" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 27 23:32:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:32:42 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Cray-1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_eBay_=E2=80=A2_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4BFEC85D.7050305@neurotica.com> References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net>, , <4BFEC85D.7050305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BFEE4FA.31311.2F91DF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 May 2010 at 15:30, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'd lay odds that that particular Cray was front-ended by an IBM > machine that received and processed the HASP jobs, otherwise there'd > be little point of doing it via HASP. Have you really polled all of the Cray old-timers to see if they might have a tape hanging around? I'd be surprised if someone like Greg Mansfield didn't have something squirreled away somewhere. Chuck From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu May 27 23:52:37 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 06:52:37 +0200 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: <3B04C456-5395-4372-9710-656AD9C55CE3@mail.msu.edu> References: <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> <3B04C456-5395-4372-9710-656AD9C55CE3@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4BFF4C15.3090504@bluewin.ch> > The information is useful, yes, but less useful to me, being in a > language I do not speak (and Google translate does a fairly poor job > on this stuff.) , There is lots of usefull stuff on the stuttgart computer museum's server, lots of it not found elsewere. They could market it better. Try ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/c74 for the earliest article on a TTL DIY computer, a strange clockless beast, with instruction mapped on memoryaddresses. It came/started before the Educ8 and Mark-8. There is also some stuff on Philips computers. And by reading the german article on the 4051, you will find out that @ is called "clinging ape" in german. It is "monkey's tail" in Dutch. So how is that for useful information ! Jos Dreesen From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 27 23:57:52 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:57:52 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <20100527124132.R93655@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: If it ain't broke, why ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RodSmallwood [rodsmallwood at btconnect.com] Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:15 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK Of course we could join TNMoC en-mass and do a Mike Holmes on it. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 27 May 2010 20:50 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK On Thu, 27 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > But computers can be enjoyed in quiet isolation. > Quiet? What with cooling fans, 'washing machine' disk drives, dot matrix > printers and ASR33s? Surely you jest.... In this context, and with the current state of my cochlea, I meant it figuratively in terms of lack of interruptions, rather than the audiological meaning. > > We PUSHED Tony to reveal his "real reasons", and eventually he did. Now > I wonder if this is a classic case of 'Be careful what you ask for. You > might end up getting it' :-) It certainly was. > > still be a lot left when I die. Rather than risk a Maslin, I've asked my > > executioner (and I intend to add it as a codicil) to make every effort to > Err, don;t you mean executrix (female executor) here? . . . wait until you meet her > > get hold of this list, Sellam, and Tony to "get rid of all that useless > > obsolete crap" (her words). She would be willing to mail the Tessina to > > Tony, but if he wants the Epson QX10 (I need to confirm where it is) or > Thanks... But needelss to say I hope I never receive it (in that I hope > you outlive me). > . . . > I am not sure what you are trying to convince me to do here.. Outlive me, and lend a hand to "get rid of all that useless obsolete crap" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From IanK at vulcan.com Thu May 27 23:58:08 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 21:58:08 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <20100527124132.R93655@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: If it ain't broke, why 'fix' it? I still don't see any basis for your criticisms of TNMOC. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RodSmallwood [rodsmallwood at btconnect.com] Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:15 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK Of course we could join TNMoC en-mass and do a Mike Holmes on it. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 27 May 2010 20:50 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK On Thu, 27 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > But computers can be enjoyed in quiet isolation. > Quiet? What with cooling fans, 'washing machine' disk drives, dot matrix > printers and ASR33s? Surely you jest.... In this context, and with the current state of my cochlea, I meant it figuratively in terms of lack of interruptions, rather than the audiological meaning. > > We PUSHED Tony to reveal his "real reasons", and eventually he did. Now > I wonder if this is a classic case of 'Be careful what you ask for. You > might end up getting it' :-) It certainly was. > > still be a lot left when I die. Rather than risk a Maslin, I've asked my > > executioner (and I intend to add it as a codicil) to make every effort to > Err, don;t you mean executrix (female executor) here? . . . wait until you meet her > > get hold of this list, Sellam, and Tony to "get rid of all that useless > > obsolete crap" (her words). She would be willing to mail the Tessina to > > Tony, but if he wants the Epson QX10 (I need to confirm where it is) or > Thanks... But needelss to say I hope I never receive it (in that I hope > you outlive me). > . . . > I am not sure what you are trying to convince me to do here.. Outlive me, and lend a hand to "get rid of all that useless obsolete crap" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 00:00:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 22:00:26 -0700 Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: References: <00bc01cafd1f$22591f40$7265610a@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at May 26, 10 10:11:38 pm, Message-ID: <4BFEEB7A.3776.3127F14@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 May 2010 at 19:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ok. thanks for the info. Just one more question; why only an odd > > number of lines? > > For resons of getting the best piture from the available bandwidth, > all analouge broadcast TV systems use interlaced scanning. And that > pretty much requires a 'half line' in every field, so a total of an > odd number of lines. At least on NTSC, the half-line setup works like this. Scan lines on a TV CRT are not horizontal--they slope slightly down as they are scanned from right to left. So, the second field begins with the beginning of the vertical sweep, but offset from the left of the screen by exactly one-half line. The net result is that the lines on the second field of a frame fall exactly between the lines of the first field. The vertical synchronizing in the US system is quite clever, consisting of varying (depending on odd or even fields) numbers of pre-equalizing pulses (at twice the horizontal frequency) before the vertical sync pulse train and a similarly variable number of post- equalizing pulses following. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 28 00:01:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 01:01:15 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Cray-1_resurfaces_in_pieces_on_?= =?windows-1252?Q?eBay_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4BFEE4FA.31311.2F91DF2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFBFEF3.8070906@sbcglobal.net>, , <4BFEC85D.7050305@neurotica.com> <4BFEE4FA.31311.2F91DF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BFF4E1B.6000605@neurotica.com> On 5/28/10 12:32 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'd lay odds that that particular Cray was front-ended by an IBM >> machine that received and processed the HASP jobs, otherwise there'd >> be little point of doing it via HASP. > > Have you really polled all of the Cray old-timers to see if they > might have a tape hanging around? I'd be surprised if someone like > Greg Mansfield didn't have something squirreled away somewhere. No, I've not polled anyone for that stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 28 00:10:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 01:10:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: <4BFF4C15.3090504@bluewin.ch> References: <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> <3B04C456-5395-4372-9710-656AD9C55CE3@mail.msu.edu> <4BFF4C15.3090504@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4BFF5052.9020109@neurotica.com> On 5/28/10 12:52 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > There is lots of usefull stuff on the stuttgart computer museum's > server, lots of it not found elsewere. They could market it better. > > Try ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/c74 for the earliest > article on a TTL DIY computer, > a strange clockless beast, with instruction mapped on memoryaddresses. > It came/started before the Educ8 and Mark-8. > > There is also some stuff on Philips computers. Most of the files in the c74 directory have their permissions set such that anonymous FTP users can't read them. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 28 00:34:04 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 22:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: p112 thoughts Message-ID: After getting another inquiry about the P112 kits, I started wondering how many people would be interested in putting down money for a pre-order before I actually order the parts and boards. That's partially the way it ran for the run of 100 I did a few years ago. More recently, I made an expensive mess running a prepaid group order for FP-6120 toggle switches, so I'm bit shy about taking preorders again. If anyone out there has deep pockets to help me finance something like this, I'd be glad to get the help. I could use the business too. Unless and until I get a new job, this is probably the only way I can get P112 kits made. See me at 661.org if you have any questions. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From clay at ArcherServices.com Thu May 27 13:24:34 2010 From: clay at ArcherServices.com (Clay Archer) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 12:24:34 -0600 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... Message-ID: > Josh wrote: > I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over a serial port or the > GPIB bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in progress > (progress being very slow at the moment) based on disassembling the > system ROMs and going through the service manuals. I recently came into > possession of the actual source code for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche, > which I've passed on to Al for archiving. Looking forward to reading > through those once he's done! > > I'm hoping that once I work out enough to write a basic emulation, I'll > know enough about the hardware to write some assembly code for the real > 4051 to allow raw dumps of 4051 tapes (and hopefully writing them > back!). But I have a few other things stealing time from me at the > moment, so it won't be in the near future... I found some of my notes to "un-secret" the programs on the 4051. You need to load a string variable with 6800 program code and execute it to clear the secret flag. This is what I found: You can execute at the command line: L$="7?008039" CALL "exec",L$ The string is code for the hexadecimal equivalent, where A through F is replaced with a=":", b=";" c="<", d="=", e=">", f="?" Or the real hex codes are: 7F,00,80,39 Which represent the 6800 instructions: CLR 00 80 ; clear memory at 0x8000 RTS ; return from subroutine I have one tape that came with the 4051 I recently acquired. After replacing the broken band I borrowed from another cartridge I have been able to read parts of it. It gets a read error part way through the first file. My question is, how long will old tapes and disk media remain readable? This tape was written about 20 years ago, and I have tapes & disks for other systems that are much older. Other than keeping media in a cool, dry climate away from magnetic fields, what is the best way to preserve them? How long can the magnetic encoding survive? From chrise at pobox.com Thu May 27 19:13:43 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 19:13:43 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100528001343.GW14469@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (05/27/2010 at 12:24PM -0600), Clay Archer wrote: > > Or the real hex codes are: 7F,00,80,39 > > Which represent the 6800 instructions: > > > > CLR 00 80 ; clear memory at 0x8000 > > RTS ; return from subroutine Actually, if the hex is 7F 00 80, then you are doing CLR 0x0080 RTS not CLR 0x8000 RTS The 6800 is big endian. -- Chris Elmquist From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Thu May 27 19:12:58 2010 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 00:12:58 +0000 Subject: Nice HP 250 system on eBay Message-ID: Search for item 200305540332. The listing includes some very clear photos, including terminal, desk, manuals and floppies. I hope it works! Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/197222280/direct/01/ Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri May 28 01:16:15 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 27 May 2010 23:16:15 -0700 Subject: Nice HP 250 system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, I have heard of the guy selling this (Bob Rosenbloom, I believe)... he's completely legit (I've only heard good things about him) and since he only has local pickup, the buyer could try it out (I would think). Come to think of it, I'm supposed to go see some of his machines soon... Mark On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 5:12 PM, John S wrote: > > Search for item 200305540332. The listing includes some very clear photos, including terminal, desk, manuals and floppies. > > I hope it works! > > Regards, > John > > _________________________________________________________________ > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/197222280/direct/01/ > Do you have a story that started on Hotmail? Tell us now From silent700 at gmail.com Fri May 28 01:59:51 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 01:59:51 -0500 Subject: Nice HP 250 system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 7:12 PM, John S wrote: > > Search for item 200305540332. The listing includes some very clear photos, including terminal, desk, manuals and floppies. The HP Terminals brochure here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/HP shows on page 15 the HP 250 system with the original monitor rather than the terminal included in Bob's auction. Also, a plant! From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 28 03:02:21 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 09:02:21 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 9:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 May 2010 at 15:18, John Foust wrote: > >> Wikipedia says "The saying "a pint's a pound the world around" refers >> to 16 US fluid ounces of water weighing approximately one pound >> avoirdupois in the United States... ?In the rest of the >> English-speaking world, an Imperial pint-being 20 Imperial ounces of >> water-will weigh one and a quarter pounds." > > Exactly the rule of thumb I learned it as a kid. ?To this day, it has > told me that a 250 gallon tank filled with water sitting in the back > of my pickup weighs about a ton, plus whatever the (PVC) tank weighs. > > A little 50 gallon water-filled tank weighs more than 400 lbs. > > ...another rule of "thumb" is that the distance from the tip of your > thumb to the knuckle is about an inch. ?In my case, it's more > accurate than "three barleycorns, dry and round" from my pantry, > which measured only about 3/4 of an inch. How anyone can love Imperial measurements is beyond me. I am 42 and grew up with the tail-end of them and I hate them with a burning passion. Give me metric any day, where 1 litre in the USA is the same as 1 litre anywhere and 1 litre of water masses 1kg anywhere on the planet or indeed off it (at least unless it is travelling very quickly indeed). -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri May 28 04:59:21 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 10:59:21 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Waiting for people to volunteer will not get you the right people at the > right time. But how do you find them? > If you have a system that needs fixing then find somebody who > has experience and will help. Don't waste their time with travel to BP or > anywhere else. Can't do that with Germanium giants like mine, anyway the volunteer would need 700 square feet to install it and then wire wrap tens of thousands of connections to get back to where it was when it left its home. > Get it in a vehicle and deliver it and collect it when done. And another three months to reassemble it. > > The two major issues most restorers have are space and transport. Agreed. > They would > save more systems if they had the right transport and space to work. So if > you want to be a working computer museum get yourself a big van and some > hefty volunteers. Then make friends with known restorers. Horse trade parts > they may need for their work on your systems. Don't be afraid to exchange > items in storage for something a collector ahs and you would add to your > display. The old 'the donor wouldn't like it' excuse is nonsense. Well if I do eventually donate my mainframe it will be on the proviso that it remains my property until I die so that they cannot do that even if the machine is in storage in the hanger in Dorset. If I didn't mind it being messed with I could sell it for a lot of money myself. Spare parts I donate with the machine are a slightly different matter, provided they are swapping for things to be used on my machine. I am still amazed at the price of punched cards on eBay. I've got enough we make notes on them and that horrifies some people, but I bought 110,000 of the for 11 pounds back in the late '70s, though I did break the suspension on my father's Daimler transporting them. Roger Holmes ICT 1301 5 ton / 13kVA mainframe from 1962 From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 28 07:14:59 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 08:14:59 -0400 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFFB3C3.9000702@comcast.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y >> mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too. >> > > Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering just > what is 'triggered' ? > The Vertical and Horizontal Timebase is detached internally when switching to X-Y mode. There is no triggering involved. Basically, the inputs are fed directly into the deflection control for each X axis and Y axis - much like on a Vector monitor inside the Asteroids cabinet. So then the voltage input is converted to deflect the beam up/down or left/right. For those scopes with a Z axis input, this provides an additional intensity level control to change the brightness of the beam. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From bv at norbionics.com Fri May 28 03:44:52 2010 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn?=) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 10:44:52 +0200 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt> <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 May 2010 22:53:35 +0200, Ethan Dicks wrote: ... > > All true, but in terms of the price, when I was at school in the UK > for a Summer, a pint of lager was 95p, a pint of bitters was a more > affordable 87p. A mate of mine (who is slightly younger than I) was > shocked that I'd ever been able to buy beer for under "a pound a > pint", 'cause he never had. I in turn was shocked on my last visit to > London (2005) to see prices approaching *three* pounds for a pint. > I'm just back from Tokyo, the only place I've been where beer costs the same as in Oslo. That is, around 6 pounds/pint. -- -bv From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri May 28 07:26:44 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 08:26:44 -0400 Subject: SuperPet add on board Message-ID: <65033A79-3FFC-4FD2-A421-853DBBCCDC93@colourfull.com> Hi All, I was chasing some links this morning when I got wondering if anyone reverse engineered / upgraded the superpet add on board for the 8032 PET? 8032 PET's are pretty common and it would be pretty cool to get an upgraded add on board to turn it into a Superpet. Maybe with an SD slot on it or a networking port. Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From ken at seefried.com Fri May 28 07:29:45 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 08:29:45 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 81, Issue 67 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BFFB739.7070304@seefried.com> On 5/28/2010 1:01 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On 05/27/2010 10:30 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> > Especially by it's being an attached processor, nearly all Cray-1 >> > software (save for things like libraries) would be specific to whatever >> > front-end system was in use. > Not usually. The operating system needs to know a little bit about > what's connected to the I/O channels (including the front-end systems), > but user-space software, including applications, normally relies on > operating system services from COS or UniCOS running natively on the > main CPU. Application software didn't normally interact directly with > the front-end systems any more than than application software on IBM > mainframes interacts with the mainframe's service processor. The > front-end systems were there to boot and manage the system and provide > I/O services for the operating system. Usually when sites upgraded from > a Cray-1 to an XMP they didn't have to change their application software > at all, even though the front end was completely different. Eric is correct, at least in my experience on the XMP-48 that was at PSC. VAX/VMS front ends were used to edit programs and submit them to to the Cray (running COS), and some time later the results would return. I sent code to someone else on a different front end, and as I understand, all he had to do was mod the script to submit the jobs for the local toolset. No changes to the code. KJ From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 28 07:40:06 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:40:06 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <6B13C2B718434773B43185310C3A2975@vl420mt> <20100526115727.M50899@shell.lmi.net> <201005262020.o4QKKH1l097605@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Bj?rn wrote: > On Wed, 26 May 2010 22:53:35 +0200, Ethan Dicks > wrote: > > ... >> >> All true, but in terms of the price, when I was at school in the UK >> for a Summer, a pint of lager was 95p, a pint of bitters was a more >> affordable 87p. ?A mate of mine (who is slightly younger than I) was >> shocked that I'd ever been able to buy beer for under "a pound a >> pint", 'cause he never had. ?I in turn was shocked on my last visit to >> London (2005) to see prices approaching *three* pounds for a pint. >> > > I'm just back from Tokyo, the only place I've been where beer costs the same > as in Oslo. > That is, around 6 pounds/pint. Owww! I used to drink in Oslo regularly around 200-2003 or so, in Hemingway's, So What & a few other places. I'm appalled to learn it's gone up even further! Ringnes /definitely/ wasn't worth that much. ;?) And I was really looking forward to visiting Japan some day, too... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 28 08:48:02 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 09:48:02 -0400 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: <4BFFB3C3.9000702@comcast.net> References: <4BFFB3C3.9000702@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BFFC992.10100@comcast.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > > > Tony Duell wrote: >>> For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y >>> mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too. >> >> Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering >> just what is 'triggered' ? > > The Vertical and Horizontal Timebase is detached internally when > switching to X-Y mode. There is no triggering involved. Basically, the > inputs are fed directly into the deflection control for each X axis > and Y axis - much like on a Vector monitor inside the Asteroids > cabinet. So then the voltage input is converted to deflect the beam > up/down or left/right. For those scopes with a Z axis input, this > provides an additional intensity level control to change the > brightness of the beam. > oops, I forgot to finish my thought, sorry about that. The Z axis blanking is internal to the asteroids board, you wouldn't need any external triggering. That circuit shuts off the beam during retrace -- that's as along as the scope has a Z input. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 10:07:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 08:07:11 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: , <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2010 at 9:02, Liam Proven wrote: > How anyone can love Imperial measurements is beyond me. I am 42 and > grew up with the tail-end of them and I hate them with a burning > passion. Give me metric any day, where 1 litre in the USA is the same > as 1 litre anywhere and 1 litre of water masses 1kg anywhere on the > planet or indeed off it (at least unless it is travelling very quickly > indeed). This from someone who lives in a country where body weight is still quoted in stone; horse stature in hands--and I still hear announcers on the Beeb referring to distances in miles. I'm sure other examples abound. So I take any UK-related claims of the metric system being wonderful with a crannock of salt. While I'm equally comfortable in Imperial or SI units for most things, I find that the imperial units have a better relation to the human scale. The measurement of a thumb is a case in point; a yard is about the distance between the tip of my thumb and my nose, as is the length of my stride. A foot is a unit not enjoyed by the metrics- -you get your choice between a meter (too big) and the ridiculously small centimeter--even a decimeter is too small. The height of a ceiling or the spacing between rails on a railroad is conveniently expressed in whole feet. A very warm day is 100 degrees; the same reflects that I'm running a slight fever (apparently Fahrenheit was when he set the 100 degree point). 0 degrees is a very cold day and the temperature of my home freezer. "Man is the measure of all things" - Pr?tagoras of Abdera --and not some erroneous measurement of the earth's meridian. With the Imperial system, I feel a kinship with centuries of history dating back to the ancient Romans rather than some idealistic 18th- century French revolutionaries who couldn't quite get their measurements right. --Chuck From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Fri May 28 10:41:34 2010 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 16:41:34 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Moving yet further OT... On 28 May 2010 16:07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > or the spacing between rails on a railroad is conveniently > expressed in whole feet. Eh? I thought US railroad gauge was the same as the UK. (mostly). > 0 degrees is a very cold day and > the temperature of my home freezer. > > In the UK 0 degrees F is a national emergency :) --and not some erroneous measurement of the earth's meridian. With > the Imperial system, I feel a kinship with centuries of history > dating back to the ancient Romans rather than some idealistic 18th- > So that's why the Mars Climate Orbiter didn't use SI units for the thrusters. -- Pete Edwards "It looks just like a Telefunken U-47" - Frank Zappa From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 28 10:46:52 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 11:46:52 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BFFE56C.20905@gmail.com> Pete Edwards wrote: > On 28 May 2010 16:07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> or the spacing between rails on a railroad is conveniently >> expressed in whole feet. > > Eh? I thought US railroad gauge was the same as the UK. (mostly). Yes. 4'8.5". "Standard gauge". Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 10:55:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 08:55:37 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: , <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BFF8509.4460.5028EF@cclist.sydex.com> Yet further OT, but still vintage computer-related. Back in the mid-80's, some friends from Lockheed produced an orbital mechanics modeling package (hope I've got that right) for the PC AT. When I saw the demo, I was surprised that mass was quoted in slugs. I was informed that Imperial units was how the defense industry measured things. I hadn't seen slugs quoted as a mass unit since high-school physics-- and even then, it was mostly to emphasize that "pound" was a unit of weight, not mass, not for any practical use. --Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri May 28 10:57:38 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 11:57:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 11:07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > a yard > is about the distance between the tip of my thumb and my nose, ... about one meter. > the length of my stride. ?A foot is a unit not enjoyed by the metrics- > -you get your choice between a meter (too big) and the ridiculously > small centimeter--even a decimeter is too small. So the relationship between two human scales is not a nice factor of 10. What's wrong with "about 30 cm"? How many bits of ones body need their own unit? > --and not some erroneous measurement of the earth's meridian. ?With > the Imperial system, I feel a kinship with centuries of history > dating back to the ancient Romans rather than some idealistic 18th- > century French revolutionaries who couldn't quite get their > measurements right. Hang on a microforthnight, you are complaining about the abritrary-ness of the metric system while extolling the Fahrenheit scale? Seriously? Celsius is very convenient (and I daresay human) here in Canada: If it's below 0 outside, snow will stick around. Sidewalks will be slippery. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 11:03:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 09:03:29 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFE56C.20905@gmail.com> References: , , <4BFFE56C.20905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2010 at 11:46, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Yes. 4'8.5". "Standard gauge". In any case, not a nice clean number in either system (143.5 cm)-- although the Russians and Finns use something that is very close to 5 ft. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 28 11:17:16 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 10:17:16 -0600 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Celsius is very convenient (and I daresay human) here in Canada: If > it's below 0 outside, snow will stick around. Sidewalks will be > slippery. > I say shove the metric system ... never mind. I never had any say when the goverment changed it. It is still dam cold in CANADA no matter what system you use. PS the only good use for metric. "All the tea in China -- 300,000,000 metric tons." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 28 11:36:51 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 10:36:51 -0600 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4BFFE56C.20905@gmail.com> <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BFFF123.5020403@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 May 2010 at 11:46, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >> Yes. 4'8.5". "Standard gauge". > > In any case, not a nice clean number in either system (143.5 cm)-- > although the Russians and Finns use something that is very close to 5 > ft. Remember the rail cars are wider. I think the rail road width was from the width of the ruts from roman roads in England. How ever since rail roads started out hauling freight rather than people, you tended to have a narrow width to save on road bed costs as you ran from the mines to the industrial cities. > --Chuck > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 28 11:48:59 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 12:48:59 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4BFFE56C.20905@gmail.com> <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BFFF3FB.1050200@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Yes. 4'8.5". "Standard gauge". > > In any case, not a nice clean number in either system (143.5 cm)-- > although the Russians and Finns use something that is very close to 5 > ft. I think that the British also experimented with 7' once upon a time. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 12:24:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 10:24:30 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFF123.5020403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BFFF123.5020403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BFF99DE.31455.A1886A@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2010 at 10:36, Ben wrote: > Remember the rail cars are wider. I think the rail road width was from > the width of the ruts from roman roads in England. How ever since rail > roads started out hauling freight rather than people, you tended to > have a narrow width to save on road bed costs as you ran from the > mines to the industrial cities. That's apparently an urban legend. Wheel spacing had pretty much become standard by the Bronze age. The Wikipedia article on rail gague has much on this. So how many liters in a barrel of oil? Or does OPEC now trade in liters? --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Fri May 28 12:36:59 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 18:36:59 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > This from someone who lives in a country where body weight is still > quoted in stone; But you'll hear kg for most other weights: it's really only body weight that is measured in pounds. Get measured in hospital and it will be recorded in kg (unless you've just been born, must be something special about midwives I guess). > horse stature in hands--and I still hear announcers Is that Imperial vs Metric or just weird? > on the Beeb referring to distances in miles. That's the other common one (we certainly cannot afford to change all the road signs right now). > I'm sure other examples > abound. So I take any UK-related claims of the metric system being > wonderful with a crannock of salt. Like it or lump it it's the law. Except in pubs, where you will be served pints not litres (and certainly never, ever liters :0). > The measurement of a thumb is a case in point; So a fingernail must be about 1cm? > a yard > is about the distance between the tip of my thumb and my nose, and so is a metre (unless you have some unusual definition of "about" kicking around there). > as is > the length of my stride. ditto > A foot is a unit not enjoyed by the > metrics- -you get your choice between a meter (too big) and > the ridiculously > small centimeter--even a decimeter is too small. > The height of a > ceiling or the spacing between rails on a railroad is conveniently > expressed in whole feet. It's not in my house. (I've not yet built an engine, but if I decide to spend my Sundays at Cutteslowe park, I'll be sure to check). > A very warm day is 100 degrees; the same I'd be boiling then. > reflects that I'm running a slight fever (apparently Fahrenheit was > when he set the 100 degree point). I don't think that there's much to choose between 97.8 and 37.5. > 0 degrees is a very cold day and > the temperature of my home freezer. Whereas my 0 is when the car will skid slightly more than normal. Your zero doesn't happen where I live (luckily). Isn't C vs F a separate off topic pointless argument? Antonio From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Fri May 28 10:12:34 2010 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 08:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nice HP 250 system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25368.99756.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes this HP250 does appear to be missing the original console. However there were 250s that used a HP264x terminal for a console. Not sure if this particular model ever did. Best to ask the seller about this. Lee Courtney ________________________________ From: Jason T To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Thu, May 27, 2010 11:59:51 PM Subject: Re: Nice HP 250 system on eBay On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 7:12 PM, John S wrote: > > Search for item 200305540332. The listing includes some very clear photos, including terminal, desk, manuals and floppies. The HP Terminals brochure here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/HP shows on page 15 the HP 250 system with the original monitor rather than the terminal included in Bob's auction. Also, a plant! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 28 12:58:48 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:58:48 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFF3FB.1050200@gmail.com> References: <4BFFE56C.20905@gmail.com> <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFF3FB.1050200@gmail.com> Message-ID: > I think that the British also experimented with 7' once upon a time. In the US, it was not until the early 1900 that things finally settled upon "standard gauge". The earlier wide gauge lines had converted sometime after the Civil War, and the various narrow gauges went away as the lines went bankrupt, with a few converting to standard. Except for light rail, underground, and tourist lines, there is only one narrow gauge line left, and it is obviously an isolated system. Keep in mind that wide gauge is not as good an idea as it seems - the wider you get, the more difficult it is to make long wheelbases track properly. The Russians figured this out the hard way. -- Will From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri May 28 13:35:39 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:35:39 -0500 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFF123.5020403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , , , <4BFFE56C.20905@gmail.com> <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BFFF123.5020403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 10:36:51 -0600 > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > To: > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 28 May 2010 at 11:46, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > > > >> Yes. 4'8.5". "Standard gauge". > > > > In any case, not a nice clean number in either system (143.5 cm)-- > > although the Russians and Finns use something that is very close to 5 > > ft. > > Remember the rail cars are wider. I think the rail road width was from > the width of the ruts from roman roads in England. How ever since rail > roads started out hauling freight rather than people, you tended to have > a narrow width to save on road bed costs as you ran from the mines to > the industrial cities. > > > --Chuck > > > > > > > I read also that Werner Von Braun scaled the V-2 to the railroad and tunnel clearance available. Did Microsoft scale Windows to the available memory? Cause 640K is all anybody will ever need... _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From ragooman at comcast.net Fri May 28 13:45:45 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:45:45 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C000F59.2040009@comcast.net> Pete Edwards wrote: > > So that's why the Mars Climate Orbiter didn't use SI units for the > thrusters. > At least there's one thing they can't change to Metric, and that's the Binary numeral system long live Base 2 :) =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri May 28 13:59:22 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:59:22 -0500 Subject: LCD TVs for classic computers Message-ID: I'm thinking of heading over to frys this weekend to pick up an LCD TV for use with a few classic computers and maybe classic gaming consoles. I'd like something that will have good image quality for use with things like Amigas and c64s. I'd like to avoid things like submarining mouse pointers, ghosting around letters (ringing?) and aspect ratio problems. A VGA port would be nice also. Bonus for being able to use the NTSC frequencies when the signal is coming from the VGA port so I can attach the amiga right to that. Obviously, I'd want a composite and svga input also. Even coax would be useful in case I pick up a 2600 or colecovision. Can anyone suggest a make and model that has all of this? brian From tonsofpcs at gmail.com Fri May 28 14:04:32 2010 From: tonsofpcs at gmail.com (tonsofpcs) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:04:32 -0400 Subject: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, here is where we get into muddyness. In the US, we started with NTSC (later called RS-170). NTSC Television or the NTSC System or simply NTSC is a television transmission scheme that includes scan rates, lines, channels, etc. NTSC met again and created what is sometimes referred to as NTSC-II (NTSC with color, RS170A) which includes all of NTSC (modified as needed) as well as a color encoding system. Then we got NTSC-III which is essentially the same thing as NTSC-II but adjusts the color space and some minor details. In Europe, they had System-[letter] to define the line rate, frame rate, channels, etc. They simply added a PAL or SECAM (or no) color encoding scheme but kept the system name. They refer to these systems as PAL-[letter] or SECAM-[letter] so that you have PAL-B instead of "System B with PAL colour encoding" Japan decided to use the NTSC-II (or was it already III at that point?) system but to change the black level to be 0 IRE instead of 7.5 IRE. Someone decided to start referring to this as NTSC-J. Later, someone decided that the US should have a letter too. Let's make it M! Yes! NTSC-M works! (I have no clue whose idea this was, but it makes a mess of the whole NTSC nomenclature) Then we got digital recording. Recordings with NTSC-compatible D1 decks (remember, the ins and outs were still analog and everything had to be in tight tolerance to make this work) were referred to as NTSC-D1, recordings with PAL-compatible 625-line-25-fps-system decks then started getting referred to as "PAL-D1" (ugh... here we go with messy nomenclature again) Then DV came along. Digital in, digital out, mangled formats ("NTSC-DV" and "PAL-DV") that have absolutely no bearing on what color encoding comes out of a deck and the "NTSC-DV" version of which didn't record all visible scan lines... Anyway, what you are looking for doesn't exist. Just call it "NTSC Color" and you'll be better off than these and many, many, many other (don't get me started on DVDs) misnomers. Eric From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri May 28 14:05:17 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:05:17 -0500 Subject: LCD TVs for classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:59:22 -0500 > Subject: LCD TVs for classic computers > From: brianlanning at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > I'm thinking of heading over to frys this weekend to pick up an LCD TV > for use with a few classic computers and maybe classic gaming > consoles. I'd like something that will have good image quality for > use with things like Amigas and c64s. I'd like to avoid things like > submarining mouse pointers, ghosting around letters (ringing?) and > aspect ratio problems. > > A VGA port would be nice also. Bonus for being able to use the NTSC > frequencies when the signal is coming from the VGA port so I can > attach the amiga right to that. Obviously, I'd want a composite and > svga input also. Even coax would be useful in case I pick up a 2600 > or colecovision. > > Can anyone suggest a make and model that has all of this? > > brian Hit the pawn shop first. They are overstocked in this bad economy. I got a 19" for $65, SVGA input, NTSC input, component ycbr, svideo, cable ready tuner remote... Randy _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From tonsofpcs at gmail.com Fri May 28 14:06:34 2010 From: tonsofpcs at gmail.com (tonsofpcs) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:06:34 -0400 Subject: LCD TVs for classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Many LCDs will slow scan. That said, the Amigas natively run at super-slow scanrates. Likely you will either find most LCDs work or no LCD works (without the sync-strainer, scan-doubler, etc.). I don't have an LCD at home so I haven't tested any. -- Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 28 14:08:30 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 12:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 28 May 2010, Ben wrote: > I say shove the metric system ... never mind. I never had any say when > the goverment changed it. It is still dam cold in CANADA no matter what > system you use. Yeah. When the temperature is -40 degrees, you no longer need to care which of the two common systems it is. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 28 14:10:10 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 12:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LCD TVs for classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > I'm thinking of heading over to frys this weekend to pick up an LCD TV > for use with a few classic computers and maybe classic gaming > consoles. I'd like something that will have good image quality for > use with things like Amigas and c64s. I'd like to avoid things like > submarining mouse pointers, ghosting around letters (ringing?) and > aspect ratio problems. > > A VGA port would be nice also. Bonus for being able to use the NTSC > frequencies when the signal is coming from the VGA port so I can > attach the amiga right to that. Obviously, I'd want a composite and > svga input also. Even coax would be useful in case I pick up a 2600 > or colecovision. > > Can anyone suggest a make and model that has all of this? > While not an LCD TV, I've heard good things about this device when used with a C-64: http://onlinestore.rtv-veg.com/vt1200.html g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri May 28 14:13:50 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:13:50 -0500 Subject: LCD TVs for classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 2:06 PM, tonsofpcs wrote: > Many LCDs will slow scan. ?That said, the Amigas natively run at super-slow > scanrates. Yep, those would be the NTSC and PAL scan rates, just like broadcast TV. :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 28 14:14:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 12:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <4BFFE56C.20905@gmail.com> <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BFFF123.5020403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100528121246.B34334@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 28 May 2010, Randy Dawson wrote: > I read also that Werner Von Braun scaled the V-2 to the railroad and tunnel clearance available. > > Did Microsoft scale Windows to the available memory? > > Cause 640K is all anybody will ever need... We just can't stay off-topic, can we? I'm sure that they scale to the available memory, . . . of a Moore's law approximation of some point in the future. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 28 14:19:56 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 12:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LCD TVs for classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > A VGA port would be nice also. Bonus for being able to use the NTSC > frequencies when the signal is coming from the VGA port so I can > attach the amiga right to that. Obviously, I'd want a composite and > svga input also. Even coax would be useful in case I pick up a 2600 > or colecovision. If you want to seriously play with the 2600 or Coleco, consider getting Longhorn Engineer's AV mod board. See atariage.com for more. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 28 14:23:01 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:23:01 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 card set M-215 Message-ID: I have a set of cards installed in a PDP-11/24 I am readying for sale, and I can not ID them. They are a pair of quad heights, linked by a ribbon cable, and the etch says M-215 INTERFACE. The logo is a B with eight arrows coming out, sort of forming a square. The logo looks familiar, but I just can not place it. There is a place for an external cable or two to connect. Any ideas? M215? There is also a mystery hex height CDC card in this thing - possibly the mythical Unibus Cyberchannel card. -- Will From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri May 28 14:37:57 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 12:37:57 -0700 Subject: LCD TVs for classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EA87960-9AD4-411A-8E3B-B0EB60B2AB03@mail.msu.edu> On May 28, 2010, at 11:59 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I'm thinking of heading over to frys this weekend to pick up an LCD TV > for use with a few classic computers and maybe classic gaming > consoles. I'd like something that will have good image quality for > use with things like Amigas and c64s. I'd like to avoid things like > submarining mouse pointers, ghosting around letters (ringing?) and > aspect ratio problems. > > A VGA port would be nice also. Bonus for being able to use the NTSC > frequencies when the signal is coming from the VGA port so I can > attach the amiga right to that. Obviously, I'd want a composite and > svga input also. Even coax would be useful in case I pick up a 2600 > or colecovision. > > Can anyone suggest a make and model that has all of this? > > brian Honestly, it's been my experience that the scan converters in most LCD/Plasma sets do a pretty poor job for most older computers and video game systems. I get terrible blurring on motion and incorrect de-interlacing, processing lag (does make a difference for games) and other ugly looking effects with the one in my set. Even through s- video, things aren't much better. I finally bit the bullet and bought an XRGB3; it's a scan converter with mutiple Composite, s-video, component, VGA, and Japanese SCART input, meant for use with video game systems. It has a VGA/dvi output. Tons of options, low processing lag, and does a *great* job picture-wise, even with composite inputs (though if you can get an s- video or RGB signal from your devices it's preferable.). Went from a blurry washed out picture from my Sega Genesis and c64 to seeing each glorious pixel in exquisite detail :). (you can even turn on a scanline simulation mode if you want it to look more like a CRT...) Downsides are that it cost me about $350, and the menus are in Japanese (translations are available on the web). If you have the means, I highly recommend it. Josh > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 28 14:42:26 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:42:26 -0600 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C001CA2.3030601@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 28 May 2010, Ben wrote: >> I say shove the metric system ... never mind. I never had any say when >> the goverment changed it. It is still dam cold in CANADA no matter what >> system you use. > > Yeah. When the temperature is -40 degrees, you no longer need to care > which of the two common systems it is. > You still do ... Let us not forget Antartica. BTW. I drilled a few 1/4" holes here in Canada. Don't tell anybody. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 28 15:10:33 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C001CA2.3030601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> <4C001CA2.3030601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100528130732.C36769@shell.lmi.net> > > Yeah. When the temperature is -40 degrees, you no longer need to care > > which of the two common systems it is. On Fri, 28 May 2010, Ben wrote: > You still do ... Let us not forget Antartica. There's not a lot of difference between -40 degrees Fahrenheit and -40 degrees Celsius (nor even Centigrade) If you are dealing with Kelvin or Rankin, then you have other issues to deal with! > BTW. I drilled a few 1/4" holes here in Canada. Don't tell anybody. I think that Canada can recover from that From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 14:07:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:07:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: <464817.94307.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at May 27, 10 12:49:37 pm Message-ID: Vector display using Z moDulation, not trigger] > > That's correct. OK, that';s what I'd guessed, but I wanted to be sure... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 14:53:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:53:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at May 27, 10 09:58:08 pm Message-ID: > > If it ain't broke, why 'fix' it? I still don't see any basis for your crit= > icisms of TNMOC. =20 "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" has always struck me as being a particularly stupid saying. It would appear I should wait for my engine to seize before I change the oil, for example. In any case, some of us feel there are certainly thing about TNMoC that could be improved. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 14:55:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:55:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pravetz 82 In-Reply-To: <4BFEEB7A.3776.3127F14@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 27, 10 10:00:26 pm Message-ID: > > On 27 May 2010 at 19:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Ok. thanks for the info. Just one more question; why only an odd > > > number of lines? > > > > For resons of getting the best piture from the available bandwidth, > > all analouge broadcast TV systems use interlaced scanning. And that > > pretty much requires a 'half line' in every field, so a total of an > > odd number of lines. > > At least on NTSC, the half-line setup works like this. Scan lines on Ame on every oth TV standard I've looekd at. > a TV CRT are not horizontal--they slope slightly down as they are > scanned from right to left. So, the second field begins with the Yes, the vertical deflection is a continuous ramp, not a staircase. So the right hand end of the line is lower (it occurs later in time, so the vertical signal has mobed down a bit) than the left end. > beginning of the vertical sweep, but offset from the left of the > screen by exactly one-half line. The net result is that the lines on > the second field of a frame fall exactly between the lines of the > first field. Yep... > > The vertical synchronizing in the US system is quite clever, > consisting of varying (depending on odd or even fields) numbers of > pre-equalizing pulses (at twice the horizontal frequency) before the > vertical sync pulse train and a similarly variable number of post- > equalizing pulses following. That's ow it's done in the UK 625 line standard (and I would guess the others too). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 15:01:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:01:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at May 28, 10 09:02:21 am Message-ID: > How anyone can love Imperial measurements is beyond me. I am 42 and I have no problem with them at all.... I am certainly happier doing metalwork in 'thou' (1/1000 inch) than fractions of a millimeter [1]. But I can work with just aobut any units -- converting them to something I know is not exactly difficult. [1] I do find it amusing that my supposedly metric set of feeler guages has the 2 thickest blades 0.38mm and 0.63mm.I assume everyone gets that... The comment that imperial units are difficult to convert between is IMHO irrelevant for most people (and those who do need to worry about it can geenrally do the calculation). So you don't know how many inches there are in a mile (63360 I think). Most people never need to do that conversion. You use miles to work out how far it is to get to the VCF and inches to lay out the PCB you're taking to the VCF. I personally do not like 10 as a base of a number system or unit system. Systesm based on powees of 2 seem a lot more convneinet. And there are rather mroe powers of 2 in the imperial system. But as I said I can work in any units (provided I can find a conversion factor to something I know). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 15:05:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:05:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: <4BFFB3C3.9000702@comcast.net> from "Dan Roganti" at May 28, 10 08:14:59 am Message-ID: > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> For just playing around you can also use an oscilloscope in X-Y > >> mode... even better if you can trigger off of another input too. > >> > > > > Since a 'scope in X-Y mode doesn't use the timebase, I am wondering just > > what is 'triggered' ? > > > > The Vertical and Horizontal Timebase is detached internally when > switching to X-Y mode. There is no triggering involved. Basically, the > inputs are fed directly into the deflection control for each X axis and > Y axis - much like on a Vector monitor inside the Asteroids cabinet. So Err, yes, I realise that. I have worked on vector display systems (although not arcade games [1]) and I do own several 'scopes... [1] But the only hoime video game console I own uses a vector display... > then the voltage input is converted to deflect the beam up/down or > left/right. For those scopes with a Z axis input, this provides an > additional intensity level control to change the brightness of the beam. Looks at the 'CRT Cathode' terminals on the back of my 555.... My comment was the word 'trigger'. I don't see how that could apply to a vector display. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 15:10:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:10:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFF3FB.1050200@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at May 28, 10 12:48:59 pm Message-ID: > > In any case, not a nice clean number in either system (143.5 cm)-- > > although the Russians and Finns use something that is very close to 5 > > ft. > > I think that the British also experimented with 7' once upon a time. Well, God's Wonderful Railway (aka the Great Way Round) used borad gauge for a time, and it was arounf 7' I am not the person to know if it was exactly 7', though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 15:15:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:15:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at May 28, 10 06:36:59 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > > > This from someone who lives in a country where body weight is still > > quoted in stone; > > But you'll hear kg for most other weights: it's really only body weight Am I the only person who objects to a _weight_ being quoted in kg? When I was asekd for my body weight, I gave it in newtons :-) > that is measured in pounds. Get measured in hospital and it will be > recorded > in kg (unless you've just been born, must be something special about Odd.. When I was weifght in a hosptial, it was measured in stones and pounds (and the nurse had a conversion table to kg). > > I'm sure other examples > > abound. So I take any UK-related claims of the metric system being > > wonderful with a crannock of salt. > > Like it or lump it it's the law. Except in pubs, where you will be And it's one of the most stupid laws we have! Provided both parties involved in the transaction agree on what is being traded, the governemnt should not interfere. If I want to buy 5 yards of cable, and the shop is prepared to cut me that length, what is the problem? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 14:49:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:49:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: TNMOC restorations (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK?) In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at May 27, 10 01:11:55 pm Message-ID: > > Have you read the report in Computer Resurextion? (This is the _only_ > > indformation I have seen on this project). There were a couple of > > things > > that really upset me... > >=20 > > I had previously heard this story directly from the gentlemen involved, pre= > tty much verbatim. What do you find upsetting? =20 > I don't have the appropriate copy of Computer Resurection to hand, but from what I recall it said something like (this is a paraphrase, but I hope I've kept the meaning) 'After basic electircal safety tests we applied power and the machine appeared to start up correctly' 'However one part proved unreliable, we replaced all the PCBs, but it was still unreliavly. In the end we discovered the power supply was faulty, so we replaced that' Now, as to my problems with that: The first thing is to consider why htis machine is 'special' After all, a PDP11/73 while a nice compouter, is hardly rare. This installation may well ahve had special data input or display hardware, of course, but I would cuggest the main reason that it's significant is what it was used for -- its provenance, if you like. With that in mind : They don't say what the 'electrical safety tests' were, but I would guess it means using something like a PAT tester (an instruemtn, which IMHO should be banned, but that's another rant). That is nowhere near enough before powering up a significant machine. If it were mine, I would _at least_ completely dismantle everything that could be dismantled without damage (i.e. not open up HDAs...), then do a complete visual inspection, looking for any poissible futrue problems. Then, if there is custom hardware, consider making backups of any programmed parts (EPROMs, etc) -- if they are socketed. Note down the configuration. Reassemble the PSU and check it on a dummy load (This would have found the intermittant fault, I suspect). Check and clean (and maybe lubricate) all cooling fans. Now we come to the 'repair' : My dislike of board-swpaping in legendary here, but I find it particularly bad in this case for a couple of reasons. With an internmittant fault, the only way you can know you have cured it is to know what cuased it (and then to correct that). Swapping boards won't help. An intermittant fault could be caused by a bad connection, whcih is distured and then works well enough so that you think you've fixed it, only for it to recur some time later. And as I said earlier, this machine is significant for its provenance. In which case (in fact for any museum machine), the smallest possible part should be replaced -- the machine should be kept as original as possible. Which brings me on to the faulty PSU. Firstly, why wasn't this checked before the machine was even assembled and brought into service? Secondly, even if you take tht risk, the first thing that IMHO you do with a malfunctioning machine is check the power supply rails with a voltmeter _and 'scope_ at the backplane. And then why replace the PSU. Why not repair it? Again, keep the machine as origianl as possible. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Fri May 28 15:17:28 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 16:17:28 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100528130732.C36769@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> <4C001CA2.3030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528130732.C36769@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0024D8.5030702@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Yeah. When the temperature is -40 degrees, you no longer need to care >>> which of the two common systems it is. > > On Fri, 28 May 2010, Ben wrote: >> You still do ... Let us not forget Antartica. > > There's not a lot of difference between -40 degrees Fahrenheit and > -40 degrees Celsius (nor even Centigrade) Except that you pass BELOW -40 in Antarctica. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 15:22:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:22:26 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2010 at 18:36, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Like it or lump it it's the law. Except in pubs, where you will be > served pints not litres (and certainly never, ever liters :0). Beverages are a mixed picture here. Beer is sold by the ounce, but distilled spirits in 750 ml. bottles, sometimes called "fifths"--but that's a cheat--a true "fifth" is 0.8 quarts or 757 ml. The distillers didn't change their prices when the conversion was made. Soft drinks are another matter--large containers are 2L, instead of 0.5 gallon, so that's a plus. But small containers are still 8, 16 or 20 oz. Fortunately, drug prescriptions are now written in metric instead of drams, minims and scruples. I can remember when they weren't. Conversion of recipes for cooking can be a nightmare. What the heck is a Gas Mark? US cooks tend to measure by volume, UK by weight (I have never owned a kitchen scale and I've been cooking for a long time). Even those things that appear to be straightforward very often aren't. A "half pint" of water is 8 liquid ounces in the US, but 10 in the U.K. I'll stop here. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 28 12:09:20 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 18:09:20 +0100 Subject: Pravetz 82 References: Message-ID: <00da01cafea3$cb320de0$1efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:24 PM Subject: Re: Pravetz 82 > > Ok. thanks for the info. Just one more question; why only an odd number of > > lines? > > For resons of getting the best piture from the available bandwidth, all > analouge broadcast TV systems use interlaced scanning. And that pretty > much requires a 'half line' in every field, so a total of an odd number > of lines. > > The sync pulses are prodcued, of course, but dividing down a master > clock. And if you have an odd nymber of lines, you can't have a /2 > (simple flip-flop) involved anywhre. It's interesting to see how the > broadcast standfard were set up to use simple-ish divider chains > > 243 lines (very old UK standard) = 3^5 (so 5 cascaded /3 circuits) > 405 lines (old UK System A) = 3^4*5 (replace one of those /3s with a /5) > 525 lines (US system) = 3 * 5^2 * 7 > 625 lines (UK system) = 5^4 > > Of coruse the French had ot be a bit eccentric :-) They had a > monochrome-only 819 line standard (System E). It involves a /13 circuit :-) > > -tony > Ahhh, right. Now I see why :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 28 14:56:16 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:56:16 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK References: <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <00dd01cafea3$d7e2cd90$1efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 6:36 PM Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK > Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > > > This from someone who lives in a country where body weight is still > > quoted in stone; > > But you'll hear kg for most other weights: it's really only body weight > that is measured in pounds. Get measured in hospital and it will be > recorded > in kg (unless you've just been born, must be something special about > midwives > I guess). > > > horse stature in hands--and I still hear announcers > > Is that Imperial vs Metric or just weird? > > > on the Beeb referring to distances in miles. > > That's the other common one (we certainly cannot afford to change all > the > road signs right now). Some speedometers on cars, scooters, motorbikes and bicycles would need changing too (not all vehicles have km/h and mph). Personally I much prefer miles (even though I don't know how long a mile is - something like 1.25 km's?) over kilometres when talking road distances. I also much prefer buying vegetables in pounds and oz's rather than kilograms, from our local veg shop. > > > I'm sure other examples > > abound. So I take any UK-related claims of the metric system being > > wonderful with a crannock of salt. > > Like it or lump it it's the law. Except in pubs, where you will be > served pints not litres (and certainly never, ever liters :0). > Yeah, well that law sucks. > > The measurement of a thumb is a case in point; > > So a fingernail must be about 1cm? > > > a yard > > is about the distance between the tip of my thumb and my nose, > is that with arm outstretched, or can it be at any angle?! > and so is a metre (unless you have some unusual definition of > "about" kicking around there). > > > as is > > the length of my stride. > > ditto > > > A foot is a unit not enjoyed by the > > metrics- -you get your choice between a meter (too big) and > > the ridiculously > > small centimeter--even a decimeter is too small. > Decimeter... haven't heard that in years. What about betting? Betting slips (online atleast) can use a decimal system instead of the old fractions system. Thankfully it's optional for now. I have always grown up with horseracing odds being in fractions, and you always measure a horses height in hands :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 15:24:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:24:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: from "tonsofpcs" at May 28, 10 03:04:32 pm Message-ID: > Later, someone decided that the US should have a letter too. Let's make it > M! Yes! NTSC-M works! (I have no clue whose idea this was, but it makes a > mess of the whole NTSC nomenclature) Beleive-it-or-not, PAL-M exists. It's PAL using 525 lines/60Hz vertical, and a colour subcarrier around 3.58MHz (but not indentical to the NTSC carrier for techncial reasons). There is also PAL-N (625/50Hz PAL, but with a subcarrier around 3.58, not 4.43 MHz). I have a PAL-N encoder and decoder somewhere... Would I get flamed too much if I talked about NTSC-B (or NTSC-G, NTSC-I) to refer to a 625 line colour signal with NTSC-like colour encoding? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 15:25:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:25:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 28, 10 12:08:30 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, 28 May 2010, Ben wrote: > > I say shove the metric system ... never mind. I never had any say when > > the goverment changed it. It is still dam cold in CANADA no matter what > > system you use. > > Yeah. When the temperature is -40 degrees, you no longer need to care > which of the two common systems it is. And the mercury in my thermometer is frozen anyway... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 28 15:32:34 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 16:32:34 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C0024D8.5030702@gmail.com> References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> <4C001CA2.3030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528130732.C36769@shell.lmi.net> <4C0024D8.5030702@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> >>>> Yeah. When the temperature is -40 degrees, you no longer need to care >>>> which of the two common systems it is. >> >> On Fri, 28 May 2010, Ben wrote: >>> >>> You still do ... Let us not forget Antartica. >> >> There's not a lot of difference between -40 degrees Fahrenheit and >> -40 degrees Celsius (nor even Centigrade) > > Except that you pass BELOW -40 in Antarctica. And in great swaths of North America, Northern Europe and Russia. I'm pretty sure Fred meant -40.0 degrees, not -40 and lower. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 28 15:45:13 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 16:45:13 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201005281645.14026.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 28 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Fri, 28 May 2010, Ben wrote: > > > I say shove the metric system ... never mind. I never had any say > > > when the goverment changed it. It is still dam cold in CANADA no > > > matter what system you use. > > > > Yeah. When the temperature is -40 degrees, you no longer need to > > care which of the two common systems it is. > > And the mercury in my thermometer is frozen anyway... You should replace the obsolete piece of junk with a new digital one. If you're short on digital thermometers, take a modern PC that you find on the curb from a neighbor pitching it, and run it to use its on-board ambient temperature sensor though an ActiveX app running on Windows 7 to tell you the temperature. It's Better. Trust Me. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 28 15:46:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:46:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100528134419.C38037@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 28 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Fortunately, drug prescriptions are now written in metric instead of > drams, minims and scruples. I can remember when they weren't. Good. How many people familiar with the unscrupulous computer memory business would BELIEVE that there are three scruples in every DRAM? > often aren't. A "half pint" of water is 8 liquid ounces in the US, > but 10 in the U.K. . . .and hence, adhering to recipes creates interesting regional variations! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 28 15:56:03 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> <4C001CA2.3030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528130732.C36769@shell.lmi.net> <4C0024D8.5030702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100528134834.T38037@shell.lmi.net> > >>>> Yeah. When the temperature is -40 degrees, you no longer need to care > >>>> which of the two common systems it is. > >>> You still do ... Let us not forget Antartica. > >> There's not a lot of difference between -40 degrees Fahrenheit and > >> -40 degrees Celsius (nor even Centigrade) > > Except that you pass BELOW -40 in Antarctica. On Fri, 28 May 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > And in great swaths of North America, Northern Europe and Russia. > I'm pretty sure Fred meant -40.0 degrees, not -40 and lower. I did say "is -40", not "is below -40". BUT, when it does get below -40, I become more concerned with getting myself unstuck from anything that I'm touching, and finding a warmer place to be. I would really love to visit Ethan at work, but realistically, I don't think that I could stand it. I even gripe about 40 degrees, although C V F will determine WHICH set of gripes I use. Would achieving -42 degrees K or R replace this universe with a different one in a big bang? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 28 16:01:54 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100528140050.C38037@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 28 May 2010, tonsofpcs wrote: > Anyway, what you are looking for doesn't exist. Just call it "NTSC Color" > and you'll be better off than these and many, many, many other (don't get me > started on DVDs) misnomers. What percentage of the world uses "Never Twice the Same Color"? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 28 16:25:56 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:25:56 -0600 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100528134834.T38037@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> <4C001CA2.3030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528130732.C36769@shell.lmi.net> <4C0024D8.5030702@gmail.com> <20100528134834.T38037@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0034E4.7090605@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > Would achieving -42 degrees K or R replace this universe with a different > one in a big bang? > No... That is reseved for when Hell freezes over. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 28 16:33:40 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:33:40 -0700 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: <4BFFC992.10100@comcast.net> References: <4BFFB3C3.9000702@comcast.net> <4BFFC992.10100@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C0036B4.7080800@brouhaha.com> Dan Roganti wrote: > > The Z axis blanking is internal to the asteroids board, you wouldn't > need any external triggering. That circuit shuts off the beam during > retrace -- that's as along as the scope has a Z input. Note that most oscilliscopes that have a Z input use capacitive coupling on that input, which is generally not very useful for a computer (or videogame) display. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 28 16:42:30 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:42:30 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <4BFFE56C.20905@gmail.com> <4BFF86E1.25909.575C51@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BFFF123.5020403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C0038C6.1050908@brouhaha.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > Did Microsoft scale Windows to the available memory? > No, it was scaled to the available money. From arcarlini at iee.org Fri May 28 16:42:04 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 22:42:04 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8E18CCF37E44474FB4F91DC18E054B4B@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > Am I the only person who objects to a _weight_ being quoted > in kg? When I > was asekd for my body weight, I gave it in newtons :-) I'm sure she meant to write kgf. BTW did you assume 9.81m/s^2 or did you account for local gravitational field strength variations :-) > Odd.. When I was weifght in a hosptial, it was measured in stones and > pounds (and the nurse had a conversion table to kg). I've never been weighed by a medic, but the last time my young'un was weighed the machine didn't do imperial units. > And it's one of the most stupid laws we have! Provided both parties > involved in the transaction agree on what is being traded, > the governemnt > should not interfere. If I want to buy 5 yards of cable, and > the shop is > prepared to cut me that length, what is the problem? The problem is that some smart Alec will sell you 5 Elbonian yards (but the Elbonian part will be in really small print, in white ink on a white background). Weights and measures have been regulated in various ways, in various places for a long time. The only thing that's changed recently is the units that can be used. A free-for-all will just let the con merchants thrive and that's bad for all of us. So your only objection is that they can only sell in one system instead of two. There's not a great deal of difference between 5 yards and 5 metres ... it's only going to be rapidly yanked off a reel, measured approximately on the wooden gauge by the reels and then cut approximately. In our local shed you get to cut yourself and declare a length at the checkout ... must remember to try declaring a fraction of a furlong some time :-) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Fri May 28 16:46:07 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 22:46:07 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > Beverages are a mixed picture here. And here. As I don't drink spirits I've no idea how much a "measure" mightn be ... I just assume that local Trading Standards know and check. The pint glasses and half pint glasses have a mark (I assume those are checked too). > What the heck is a Gas Mark? It's a number on the knob on an old style oven - the newer ones are in C (or F or both). On the odd occasion that I cook I find that the numbers don't really make much difference to the output ... that's one of the reasons I stick to computers :-) Antonio From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 28 16:47:29 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:47:29 -0700 Subject: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: <20100528140050.C38037@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100528140050.C38037@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0039F1.3030902@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > What percentage of the world uses "Never Twice the Same Color"? > A significantly smaller percentage now than one year ago. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri May 28 16:51:53 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:51:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: negative temperature (a long time ago was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100528134834.T38037@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BFD28CB.11779.F50C1D@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFEC8C.9090301@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528120659.C34334@shell.lmi.net> <4C001CA2.3030601@jetnet.ab.ca> <20100528130732.C36769@shell.lmi.net> <4C0024D8.5030702@gmail.com> <20100528134834.T38037@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > Would achieving -42 degrees K or R replace this universe with a different > one in a big bang? No. I'm quoting wikipedia here because of the suscinct description, but I heard the same from my physics professors, so I believe it to be true: > In physics, certain systems can achieve negative temperatures; that is, > their thermodynamic temperature can be of a negative quantity. Negative > temperatures can be expressed as negative numbers on the kelvin scale. > > Temperatures that are expressed as negative numbers on the familiar > Celsius or Fahrenheit scales are simply colder than the zero points of > those scales. By contrast, a system with a truly negative temperature is > not colder than absolute zero; in fact, temperatures colder than > absolute zero are impossible by definition. Rather, a system with a negative > temperature is hotter than any system with a positive temperature (in > the sense that if a negative-temperature system and a positive-temperature > system come in contact, heat will flow from the negative- to the > positive-temperature system). > > Most familiar systems cannot achieve negative temperatures, because > adding energy always increases their entropy. Some systems, however (see > the examples below), have a maximum amount of energy that they can hold, > and as they approach that maximum energy their entropy actually begins > to decrease. Because temperature is defined by the relationship between > energy and entropy, such a system's temperature becomes negative, even > though energy is being added. Alexey From arcarlini at iee.org Fri May 28 16:51:35 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 22:51:35 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <00dd01cafea3$d7e2cd90$1efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> Andrew Burton [aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] wrote: > Some speedometers on cars, scooters, motorbikes and bicycles > would need changing too Doubt it. There are plenty of UK cars on old car rallys on the continent. Certainly here your vehicle needs to comply with the regs as they were when it was built (no seat belts required in your 1921 jalopy etc.). Keeping to the speed limit is your problem. > I also much prefer buying vegetables in pounds and oz's > rather than kilograms, from our local veg shop. You've not been able to do that for a number of years now. Don't worry, the feeling will pass as you learn the new units :-) > Decimeter... haven't heard that in years. There's decametre too (another now obsolete unit). Never heard centameter so I've no idea if that exists. > What about betting? Betting slips (online atleast) can use a > decimal system instead of the old fractions system. > Thankfully it's optional for now. I have always grown up with > horseracing odds being in fractions, and you always measure a horses > height in hands :) The usual rules of not confounding the populace don't apply in betting: as a bookie you're fleecing idiots (who are assumed to know that they're being fleeced) so it doesn't really matter whether you fleece them in decimals, fractions or transcendentals :-) Antonio From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 28 17:09:01 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 23:09:01 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <8E18CCF37E44474FB4F91DC18E054B4B@ANTONIOPC> References: <8E18CCF37E44474FB4F91DC18E054B4B@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <018a01cafeb2$624e68a0$26eb39e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > The problem is that some smart Alec will sell you 5 Elbonian > yards (but the Elbonian part will be in really small print, in > white ink on a white background). Weights and measures have been > regulated in various ways, in various places for a long time. > The only thing that's changed recently is the units that can > be used. A free-for-all will just let the con merchants thrive > and that's bad for all of us. So your only objection is that > they can only sell in one system instead of two. There's not > a great deal of difference between 5 yards and 5 metres ... > it's only going to be rapidly yanked off a reel, measured > approximately on the wooden gauge by the reels and > then cut approximately. In our local shed you get to cut yourself > and declare a length at the checkout ... must remember to try > declaring a fraction of a furlong some time :-) > > Antonio I think we should adopt the Weights and Measures system proposed by The Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/24/vulture_central_standards/ Regards Rob From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri May 28 17:30:35 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:30:35 -0500 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: <4C0036B4.7080800@brouhaha.com> References: <4BFFB3C3.9000702@comcast.net>, <4BFFC992.10100@comcast.net>, <4C0036B4.7080800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 14:33:40 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: asteroids board > > Dan Roganti wrote: > > > > The Z axis blanking is internal to the asteroids board, you wouldn't > > need any external triggering. That circuit shuts off the beam during > > retrace -- that's as along as the scope has a Z input. > Note that most oscilliscopes that have a Z input use capacitive coupling > on that input, which is generally not very useful for a computer (or > videogame) display. > Hey Dan, what? Never in my life saw that, Z is always DC, specified as positive signal decreases intensity. Tube will stay dark all day long with voltage applied, its not cap coupled. Randy _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 17:37:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:37:31 -0700 Subject: OT Measure for measure, was: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> References: <00dd01cafea3$d7e2cd90$1efdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4BFFE33B.11731.1C01BC2@cclist.sydex.com> Andrew Burton [aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] wrote: > Some speedometers on cars, scooters, motorbikes and bicycles > would need changing too Some US states used to post distance signs in both km and miles, but I haven't seen one in a long time. (Interstate highway exits are often given by a number that represents the road distance from the state border, starting with the southern or western border, depending upon the orientation of the road). I've never known US speed limts to have been given in KPH, however--I'd assume that would invite confusion. > Decimeter... haven't heard that in years. It's used in some isolated disciplines, such as satellite navigation and beekeeping. A dm has the pleasant property that one cubic dm is equal to one liter (or is that "litre"? I'm eagre to enhance my meagre knowledge of the mattre). --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri May 28 17:39:27 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:39:27 -0500 Subject: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:24:11 +0100 > > > Later, someone decided that the US should have a letter too. Let's make it > > M! Yes! NTSC-M works! (I have no clue whose idea this was, but it makes a > > mess of the whole NTSC nomenclature) > > Beleive-it-or-not, PAL-M exists. It's PAL using 525 lines/60Hz vertical, > and a colour subcarrier around 3.58MHz (but not indentical to the NTSC > carrier for techncial reasons). There is also PAL-N (625/50Hz PAL, but > with a subcarrier around 3.58, not 4.43 MHz). I have a PAL-N encoder and > decoder somewhere... > > Would I get flamed too much if I talked about NTSC-B (or NTSC-G, NTSC-I) > to refer to a 625 line colour signal with NTSC-like colour encoding? > > -tony > Not if you can go on for a bit about the burst carrier frequency and how they picked it... Quite a bit of thought went into NTSC, to keep it compatible and add color. The burst 3.758 MHz is chosen to not fit a harmonic of the line rate, frame rate, and that was adjusted too, from 60Hz to 59.xxx, xxx, =975 if I recall but its been a while. Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 28 17:43:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 15:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <018a01cafeb2$624e68a0$26eb39e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <8E18CCF37E44474FB4F91DC18E054B4B@ANTONIOPC> <018a01cafeb2$624e68a0$26eb39e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20100528153955.D38037@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 28 May 2010, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I think we should adopt the Weights and Measures system proposed by The > Register: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08/24/vulture_central_standards/ Why not just switch everything to Donald E. Knuth's Potrzebie System of Weights and Measures. http://www.neatorama.com/2008/01/15/the-potrzebie-system-of-weights-and-measures/ From RichA at vulcan.com Fri May 28 19:44:24 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:44:24 -0700 Subject: A Shakespearean comedy [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> References: <00dd01cafea3$d7e2cd90$1efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: From: arcarlini at iee.org Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:52 PM > Andrew Burton [aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] wrote: >> Decimeter... haven't heard that in years. > There's decametre too (another now obsolete unit). Never > heard centameter so I've no idea if that exists. That's hektameter[1]. The names of fractionals are loosely derived from Latin; the names of larger units are loosely derived from Greek. / Latin * Greek 10 decem deka 100 centum hekaton 1000 mille khilioi ("kh" = the letter _chi_) Thing is, the Greek 100 is a compound, _he-katon_. The second part is directly cognate with Latin _centum_, while the first part means "1". [1] Not to be confused with "hexameter", which is 6 feet in a measure. I could wax poetic about that. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 19:54:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 17:54:39 -0700 Subject: A Shakespearean comedy [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: <00dd01cafea3$d7e2cd90$1efdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC>, Message-ID: <4C00035F.17472.23DA7E5@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 May 2010 at 17:44, Rich Alderson wrote: > [1] Not to be confused with "hexameter", which is 6 feet in a measure. > I could wax poetic about that. Now, now, Rich, we have to respect our Canadian and UK list members' sensitivites. That'd be "hexametre". :) --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri May 28 20:02:27 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:02:27 -0400 Subject: OT Measure for measure, was: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFE33B.11731.1C01BC2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <00dd01cafea3$d7e2cd90$1efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFE33B.11731.1C01BC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201005282102.27113.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 28 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Andrew Burton [aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] wrote: > > Some speedometers on cars, scooters, motorbikes and bicycles > > would need changing too > > Some US states used to post distance signs in both km and miles, but > I haven't seen one in a long time. (Interstate highway exits are > often given by a number that represents the road distance from the > state border, starting with the southern or western border, depending > upon the orientation of the road). I've never known US speed limts > to have been given in KPH, however--I'd assume that would invite > confusion. km signs indeed do exist. I-19 from Tuscon, AZ south to the Mexico border is an example.. distances and exit numbers are given in km. I can't remember for sure if speed limits are give in km/h at all, but I think they aren't. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 28 20:15:41 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 18:15:41 -0700 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: References: <4BFFB3C3.9000702@comcast.net>, <4BFFC992.10100@comcast.net>, <4C0036B4.7080800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C006ABD.70006@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Note that most oscilliscopes that have a Z input use capacitive coupling > on that input, which is generally not very useful for a computer (or > videogame) display Randy Dawson wrote: > Hey Dan, > Wasn't Dan that posted that, it was me. > what? > > Never in my life saw that, Z is always DC, specified as positive signal decreases intensity. Tube will stay dark all day long with voltage applied, its not cap coupled. > I've seen many scopes with AC-coupled Z-axis inputs; they were more common than DC-coupled, though usually the high-end scopes (e.g., Tek 465) had DC-coupled Z-axis. Quoting from _Oscilliscopes: How to Use Them, How They Work_, 5e, by Ian Hickman, p73: Some oscilloscopes have dc coupling of the /Z axis/ input, but /ac coupling/ is much cheaper and therefore more common, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri May 28 20:20:35 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 18:20:35 -0700 Subject: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C006BE3.1010806@brouhaha.com> Randy Dawson wrote: > Quite a bit of thought went into NTSC, to keep it compatible and add color. The burst 3.758 MHz is chosen to not fit a harmonic of the line rate, frame rate, and that was adjusted too, from 60Hz to 59.xxx, xxx, =975 if I recall but its been a while. > Approximately 59.94 Hz. From monochrome to color, all the video timings were adjusted by a factor of 1000/1001, to minimize interference between the chroma and the sound carrier. It seems like it would have been better to keep the video timing and move the sound carrier up by 1001/1000, but purportedly the FCC didn't like that idea, even though receivers of the day wouldn't have noticed. Eric From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 28 20:46:01 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 02:46:01 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I personally do not like 10 as a base of a number system or unit system. > Systesm based on powees of 2 seem a lot more convneinet. And there are > rather mroe powers of 2 in the imperial system. But as I said I can work > in any units (provided I can find a conversion factor to something I know). You should read a couple of short essays by the great Frederik Pohl: "How to Count on Your Fingers," 1956 "On Binary Digits and Human Habits," 1962 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri May 28 20:55:31 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 02:55:31 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 May 2010 at 18:36, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > >> Like it or lump it it's the law. Except in pubs, where you will be >> served pints not litres (and certainly never, ever liters :0). > > Beverages are a mixed picture here. ?Beer is sold by the ounce, but > distilled spirits in 750 ml. bottles, sometimes called "fifths"--but > that's a cheat--a true "fifth" is 0.8 quarts or 757 ml. ?The > distillers didn't change their prices when the conversion was made. > > Soft drinks are another matter--large containers are 2L, instead of > 0.5 gallon, so that's a plus. ?But small containers are still 8, 16 > or 20 oz. > > Fortunately, drug prescriptions are now written in metric instead of > drams, minims and scruples. ?I can remember when they weren't. > > Conversion of recipes for cooking can be a nightmare. ?What the heck > is a Gas Mark? ?US cooks tend to measure by volume, UK by weight (I > have never owned a kitchen scale and I've been cooking for a long > time). ?Even those things that appear to be straightforward very > often aren't. ?A "half pint" of water is 8 liquid ounces in the US, > but 10 in the U.K. > > I'll stop here. Precisely my point. The alleged Imperial "standard" isn't even standard: pints, quarts, gallons and so on all mean different things on either side of the Atlantic. AFAICT America doesn't really use things like stones and hundredweight, and frankly, I'll be buggered if I am going to try to remember how many of one meaningless contrived unit fits into another meaningless contrived unit. I don't know how many ounces are in a pound, pounds in a stone, yards in a mile or any of that nonsense. Never have, never will. The argument about "human scales" is utterly specious and based merely on parochiality. As for things like basing the 0 of the temperature scale on one arbitrary quantity and 100 on something utterly unrelated - if anyone proposed this to me as a system, I'd laugh them out of court. It's risible. At the very least, use the same substance! Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. It's about as sensible, practical and useful as Roman numerals. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 28 21:12:04 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 19:12:04 -0700 Subject: Bodylink System (C64/C128) Message-ID: I just found an interesting sales pamphlet in some of the stuff from the January Commodore delivery. It was mixed in with a bunch of non-Computer books that I also got, so I hadn't noticed it when I went through the Commodore stuff from that load. Has anyone heard of, or seen, a series of sensors, electrodes and cartridges from an outfit called "Bodylog, Inc."? It looks like you plugged the "Bodylink" into the cartridge slot, which had its own cartridge slot, microprocessor, and I/O channels for various sensors and electrodes. Pretty wild, I've never seen anything like this for a Commodore Computer. One of the most interesting things is a "Micromem Cartridge", a solid state storage device for storing Bodylink BASIC programs. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 28 21:46:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 19:46:06 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4C001D7E.15036.2A3AFB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2010 at 2:55, Liam Proven wrote: > Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; > unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all > connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is > 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks > like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but > three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what > you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. > > It's about as sensible, practical and useful as Roman numerals. Absolutely. No sense in dealing with things such as phases of the moon or the length of three barleycorns, dried and round. Let's carry on by declaring that there are 1000 seconds in an hour and 10 hours per day, 10 days per week, 10 weeks per month and 10 months per year. We shouldn't let such parochial notions such as the rising and setting of the sun and the cycling of the seasons get in the way of pure cold mathematical reason over the quaintness of a calendar founded on flawed ancient ignorance. We won't even have to name the days of the week or months of the year--or even the seasons of the year--simply refer to each day by its ordinal number. As a compromise, we could revert to Julian dates for everything and sing: 2303347 is in my mistress' face, And 2303438 in her eyes hath place; Within her bosom is 2303500, But in her heart a cold 2303591. (Thomas Morley, 1594) Works for me. Wonder if the Trekkies would use star dates... Over in the great Metric Brotherhood, how many eggs are in a carton? --Chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 22:09:38 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 04:09:38 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C008572.3010603@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 28 May 2010 at 18:36, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; > unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all > connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is > 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks > like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but > three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what > you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. Bout the only thing that isn't is time, oh sure there's the SI uit of time the second and whilst it's common to measure fractions of seconds in powers of 10 e.g. mili, micro, nano, pico etc. I's not at least outside scientific circles to measure multiples of seconds in decimal e.g. we say :- 1 hour and not 3.6 kiloseconds 1 day and not 86.4 kiloseconds 1 year and not 31.56megaseconds (2 sig fig!) etc. Humm wonder if I could patent a watch that measures time in seconds/day :) Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From technobug at comcast.net Fri May 28 22:34:25 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:34:25 -0700 Subject: OT Measure for measure, was: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 2010 21:02:27 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > km signs indeed do exist. I-19 from Tuscon, AZ south to the Mexico > border is an example.. distances and exit numbers are given in km. I > can't remember for sure if speed limits are give in km/h at all, but I > think they aren't. > > Pat > -- They were for a while (mph and kph) until someone beat a speeding ticket claiming that he mistook the kph posting to be mph... CRC From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 28 22:43:15 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:43:15 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies Message-ID: Can a C1541 or C1571 attached to a C64 read floppies from other Commodore computers such as the VIC-20 or C16? Since the floppy drive is basically a computer attached to the C64 by a serial cable, I tend to think it can, but I don't believe I've ever seen anything on this, and I know I've never tried. I've never had a floppy drive attached to any of my VIC-20's, back when it was my only computer, I only had a cassette drive. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri May 28 22:46:27 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 20:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Measure for measure, was: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100528204331.R47959@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 28 May 2010, CRC wrote: > They were for a while (mph and kph) until someone beat a speeding > ticket claiming that he mistook the kph posting to be mph... None of us have a vehicle that can come anywhere close to 100 kilo miles per hour! (KmPH) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 28 23:01:27 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: <018a01cafeb2$624e68a0$26eb39e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <8E18CCF37E44474FB4F91DC18E054B4B@ANTONIOPC> <018a01cafeb2$624e68a0$26eb39e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I've got a DataFlyer 500 expansion for my Amiga 500 and it's dead as a post. There's +5 on the connector but no where else that I can find on the board. Does anyone here happen to have a schematic for it or know where I can find one? tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 28 23:07:51 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Can a C1541 or C1571 attached to a C64 read floppies from other Commodore > computers such as the VIC-20 or C16? Since the floppy drive is basically a > computer attached to the C64 by a serial cable, I tend to think it can, but I > don't believe I've ever seen anything on this, and I know I've never tried. > I've never had a floppy drive attached to any of my VIC-20's, back when it > was my only computer, I only had a cassette drive. > Zane, the short answer is yes. The long answer is yes, because the brains of the drive and the DOS are IN the drive itself, not the computer. :) The only difficulty you might run into is trying to read a double sided 1571 disk in a single sided 1541. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 28 23:08:08 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "May 28, 10 08:43:15 pm" Message-ID: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> > Can a C1541 or C1571 attached to a C64 read floppies from other > Commodore computers such as the VIC-20 or C16? Since the floppy > drive is basically a computer attached to the C64 by a serial cable, > I tend to think it can, but I don't believe I've ever seen anything > on this, and I know I've never tried. I've never had a floppy drive > attached to any of my VIC-20's, back when it was my only computer, I > only had a cassette drive. Yup. No problem. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Nobody Does It Better" from "The Spy Who Loved Me" From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri May 28 23:29:32 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 05:29:32 +0100 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Can a C1541 or C1571 attached to a C64 read floppies from other >> Commodore computers such as the VIC-20 or C16? Since the floppy >> drive is basically a computer attached to the C64 by a serial cable, >> I tend to think it can, but I don't believe I've ever seen anything >> on this, and I know I've never tried. I've never had a floppy drive >> attached to any of my VIC-20's, back when it was my only computer, I >> only had a cassette drive. > > Yup. No problem. Indeed, though I do remember there being problems with using the very early 1540 drive from the VIC with later models, as the timing was not compatible with the C64. I believe that the only real difference between the 1540 and 1541 drives was slightly different firmware, cirtainly the drives look identical inside. I also believe that the 1540 can be upgraded by replacing the firmware with that from the 1541. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 28 23:34:15 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:34:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Measure for measure, was: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <201005282102.27113.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "May 28, 10 09:02:27 pm" Message-ID: <201005290434.o4T4YFIs006212@floodgap.com> > km signs indeed do exist. I-19 from Tuscon, AZ south to the Mexico > border is an example.. distances and exit numbers are given in km. I > can't remember for sure if speed limits are give in km/h at all, but I > think they aren't. They are not, and ADOT is gradually replacing the km signage with mile-based signage as they reach replacement age. Although km markers are posted and face the driver, ADOT also uses mile markers, turned at 90 degree angles, for internal accounting. http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/6/entry?060803 Caltrans during the 1970s posted mile/km signs and a number of these are still in service. One on I-15 N just south of CA 76 in San Diego, and another one on US 395 S between CA 58 and I-15, come to mind. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- LOAD"STANDARD DISCLAIMER",8,1 ---------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 28 23:37:01 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:37:01 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:07 PM -0700 5/28/10, Gene Buckle wrote: >On Fri, 28 May 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>Can a C1541 or C1571 attached to a C64 read floppies from other >>Commodore computers such as the VIC-20 or C16? Since the floppy >>drive is basically a computer attached to the C64 by a serial >>cable, I tend to think it can, but I don't believe I've ever seen >>anything on this, and I know I've never tried. I've never had a >>floppy drive attached to any of my VIC-20's, back when it was my >>only computer, I only had a cassette drive. >> >Zane, the short answer is yes. The long answer is yes, because the >brains of the drive and the DOS are IN the drive itself, not the >computer. :) > >The only difficulty you might run into is trying to read a double >sided 1571 disk in a single sided 1541. I thought this was the case, but just couldn't believe Commodore could have done anything so logical. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 28 23:41:44 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 2010, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > identical inside. I also believe that the 1540 can be upgraded by replacing > the firmware with that from the 1541. > ...and thereby utterly destroying the collectability of the 1540 drive. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 28 23:43:41 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 May 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:07 PM -0700 5/28/10, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Fri, 28 May 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>> Can a C1541 or C1571 attached to a C64 read floppies from other Commodore >>> computers such as the VIC-20 or C16? Since the floppy drive is basically >>> a computer attached to the C64 by a serial cable, I tend to think it can, >>> but I don't believe I've ever seen anything on this, and I know I've never >>> tried. I've never had a floppy drive attached to any of my VIC-20's, back >>> when it was my only computer, I only had a cassette drive. >>> >> Zane, the short answer is yes. The long answer is yes, because the brains >> of the drive and the DOS are IN the drive itself, not the computer. :) >> >> The only difficulty you might run into is trying to read a double sided >> 1571 disk in a single sided 1541. > > I thought this was the case, but just couldn't believe Commodore could have > done anything so logical. :-) > There's a couple of folks that have hooked 1541 drives to their ZX-81 computers. Anything that will talk the IEC serial protocol can use the drives. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From keithvz at verizon.net Fri May 28 23:45:20 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 00:45:20 -0400 Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: References: <8E18CCF37E44474FB4F91DC18E054B4B@ANTONIOPC> <018a01cafeb2$624e68a0$26eb39e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C009BE0.207@verizon.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > I've got a DataFlyer 500 expansion for my Amiga 500 and it's dead as a > post. There's +5 on the connector but no where else that I can find on > the board. Does anyone here happen to have a schematic for it or know > where I can find one? > > tnx. > > g. Gene, I've got one of those. I haven't seen a schematic. Mine works fine. If you want to provide detailed instructions on exactly what measurements, etc you need, I can do them. I also have the installation disk too, if you need. I'm tied up for the next couple days, but I'll be free after that. Keith From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 28 23:54:03 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 21:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: <4C009BE0.207@verizon.net> References: <8E18CCF37E44474FB4F91DC18E054B4B@ANTONIOPC> <018a01cafeb2$624e68a0$26eb39e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4C009BE0.207@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 2010, Keith M wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> I've got a DataFlyer 500 expansion for my Amiga 500 and it's dead as a >> post. There's +5 on the connector but no where else that I can find on the >> board. Does anyone here happen to have a schematic for it or know where I >> can find one? >> >> tnx. >> >> g. > > Gene, > > I've got one of those. I haven't seen a schematic. Mine works fine. If you > want to provide detailed instructions on exactly what measurements, etc you > need, I can do them. I also have the installation disk too, if you need. > > I'm tied up for the next couple days, but I'll be free after that. > Thanks Keith. I've tested the Vcc pins on all the chips that are on the board and none show +5. The A500 works without issue so I know the power supply is ok. I can find +5 on the .100 dual pin header that the memory expander plugs in to, but no where else. +12V does show up on the molex power connector for the drive. I've also checked both sides of what look like tantalum caps and I get no power there either. I can't see any visible damage to the board, no cut or scratched traces, etc. I'm at a total loss as to why it's not getting any power. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From silent700 at gmail.com Sat May 29 00:17:17 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 00:17:17 -0500 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > There's a couple of folks that have hooked 1541 drives to their ZX-81 > computers. ?Anything that will talk the IEC serial protocol can use the > drives. So is there a USB interface for it yet? ;) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 29 00:19:59 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 23:19:59 -0600 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C001D7E.15036.2A3AFB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C001D7E.15036.2A3AFB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C00A3FF.8070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Over in the great Metric Brotherhood, how many eggs are in a carton? 10(base 10) plus 10(base 2) spare for breakage. > --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 29 00:24:38 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 22:24:38 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:17 AM -0500 5/29/10, Jason T wrote: >On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> There's a couple of folks that have hooked 1541 drives to their ZX-81 >> computers. Anything that will talk the IEC serial protocol can use the >> drives. > >So is there a USB interface for it yet? ;) http://www.trikaliotis.net/xu1541 No, I don't have one. I use my old Twinhead 386sx/16 laptop to drive a C1541 drive. Though now I guess I'll simply use an SD card, and the C-64 itself. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gyorpb at gmail.com Sat May 29 02:04:02 2010 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 09:04:02 +0200 Subject: A Shakespearean comedy [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: <00dd01cafea3$d7e2cd90$1efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: On 29 May 2010 02:44, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:52 PM > >> Andrew Burton [aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] wrote: > >>> Decimeter... haven't heard that in years. > >> There's decametre too (another now obsolete unit). Never >> heard centameter so I've no idea if that exists. > > That's hektameter[1]. Hectometer. .tsooJ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat May 29 03:43:06 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 03:43:06 -0500 Subject: Video standards - chroma In-Reply-To: <4C006BE3.1010806@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4C006BE3.1010806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 18:20:35 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: Video standards (was RE: Pravetz 82) > > Randy Dawson wrote: > > Quite a bit of thought went into NTSC, to keep it compatible and add color. The burst 3.758 MHz is chosen to not fit a harmonic of the line rate, frame rate, and that was adjusted too, from 60Hz to 59.xxx, xxx, =975 if I recall but its been a while. > > > Approximately 59.94 Hz. From monochrome to color, all the video timings > were adjusted by a factor of 1000/1001, to minimize interference between > the chroma and the sound carrier. It seems like it would have been > better to keep the video timing and move the sound carrier up by > 1001/1000, but purportedly the FCC didn't like that idea, even though > receivers of the day wouldn't have noticed. > > Eric > Right on Eric. With sound at 4.5, you are suggesting they move it up a bit, and make the channel wider? The days of spectrum space, 6 MHz wide for 1 TV broadcast are all now all gone. I'll poke one more TV lore statement, then return the bandwidth to vintage computers. Chanel 2, 54Mhz the lowest of the channels, Houston TX was reported with reception in the UK Salt dome ground plane in the Houston area was cited as a reason, but this channel was well known for DX TV reception. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From arcarlini at iee.org Sat May 29 03:55:29 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 09:55:29 +0100 Subject: A Shakespearean comedy [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: <4C00035F.17472.23DA7E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6B30215C8186464AADA4889462753924@ANTONIOPC> Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > On 28 May 2010 at 17:44, Rich Alderson wrote: > >> [1] Not to be confused with "hexameter", which is 6 feet in a >> measure. I could wax poetic about that. > > Now, now, Rich, we have to respect our Canadian and UK list members' > sensitivites. That'd be "hexametre". :) No, we can cope with measuring distances in metres whilst simultaneously reading both a gas meter and iambic pentameter. It's all good training for working on engines (and computers) that are held together by fasteners whose dimensions are derived from various different systems :-) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Sat May 29 03:59:06 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 09:59:06 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C001D7E.15036.2A3AFB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <57D98BEACED64CAEBB1674D09BA9B78B@ANTONIOPC> Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > Works for me. Wonder if the Trekkies would use star dates... Was it RSTS/E that had (minimal) support for star dates? (Sorry if I'm almost straying back on topic ... bad habit, must stop). > Over in the great Metric Brotherhood, how many eggs are in a carton? Sorry was that eggs or ergs? (6, 10, 12 or 24, but YMMV, as always). Antonio From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 29 04:01:10 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 02:01:10 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Indeed, though I do remember there being problems with using the very > early 1540 drive from the VIC with later models, as the timing was not > compatible with the C64. I believe that the only real difference > between the 1540 and 1541 drives was slightly different firmware, > cirtainly the drives look identical inside. I also believe that the > 1540 can be upgraded by replacing the firmware with that from the 1541. There was also a command or sequence of commands that could be sent to a 1540 that changed its timing to meet the C64 requirements, until the next time the 1540 was power-cycled or otherwise reset. When I got my first C64 in 1982, it came with that information, but I no longer have it. I am of the impression that on a VIC one would get slightly higher performance out of a 1540 than a 1541, but I don't know for sure. And I don't know whether there is a corresponding command or sequence that can be sent to a 1541 to switch it to 1540 timing. Eric From arcarlini at iee.org Sat May 29 04:01:30 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 10:01:30 +0100 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> identical inside. I also believe that the 1540 can be upgraded by >> replacing the firmware with that from the 1541. >> > ...and thereby utterly destroying the collectability of the 1540 > drive. :) But you can keep a copy of the original firmware so it's a reversible change, no? Antonio From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 29 04:13:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 02:13:31 -0700 Subject: Video standards - chroma In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C006BE3.1010806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C00DABB.2090607@brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> From monochrome to color, all the video timings >> were adjusted by a factor of 1000/1001, to minimize interference between >> the chroma and the sound carrier. It seems like it would have been >> better to keep the video timing and move the sound carrier up by >> 1001/1000, but purportedly the FCC didn't like that idea, even though >> receivers of the day wouldn't have noticed. >> Randy Dawson wrote: > With sound at 4.5, you are suggesting they move it up a bit, and make the channel wider? > The days of spectrum space, 6 MHz wide for 1 TV broadcast are all now all gone. > Sound is at 4.5 MHz with a maximum deviation of +/- 25 kHz, so it is from 4.475 to 4.525. Increasing the sound carrier frequency by a 1001/1000 ratio to 4.5045 MHz would have made the range 4.4795 to 4.5295. That wouldn't have necessitated making the 6 MHz channel any wider; it wouldn't even eat into the 250 kHz guard band of the next channel. But it would have kept the 30Hz frame rate and thus avoided a lot of madness like drop-frame timecode. Best regards, Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 29 04:47:42 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 02:47:42 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > There was also a command or sequence of commands that could be sent to > a 1540 that changed its timing to meet the C64 requirements, until the > next time the 1540 was power-cycled or otherwise reset. When I got my > first C64 in 1982, it came with that information, but I no longer have > it. > > I am of the impression that on a VIC one would get slightly higher > performance out of a 1540 than a 1541, but I don't know for sure. And > I don't know whether there is a corresponding command or sequence that > can be sent to a 1541 to switch it to 1540 timing. Found it. The "UI+" command will slow down a 1540 for use on a C64, and "UI-" will speed it up again. Apparently when they wrote the 1540 firmware they anticipated that the bus might have to be slowed down for use with some future computer. Although the 1541 defaults to slow mode, the same commands work, so when using a 1541 on a VIC-20 you might want to give the "UI-" command. Example: OPEN 15,8,15,"UI-":CLOSE 15 Eric From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 29 06:28:13 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 12:28:13 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C001D7E.15036.2A3AFB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <4C001D7E.15036.2A3AFB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 3:46 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 May 2010 at 2:55, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; >> unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all >> connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is >> 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks >> like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but >> three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what >> you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. >> >> It's about as sensible, practical and useful as Roman numerals. > > Absolutely. ?No sense in dealing with things such as phases of the > moon or the length of three barleycorns, dried and round. > > Let's carry on by declaring that there are 1000 seconds in an hour > and 10 hours per day, 10 days per week, 10 weeks per month and 10 > months per year. ?We shouldn't let such parochial notions such as the > rising and setting of the sun and the cycling of the seasons get in > the way of pure cold mathematical reason over the quaintness of a > calendar founded on flawed ancient ignorance. ?We won't even have to > name the days of the week or months of the year--or even the seasons > of the year--simply refer to each day by its ordinal number. [Shrug] Who said anything about time? But if you wish, sure. Internally, of course, most computers store time as an absolute number of seconds, which makes working with dates and times programmatically much easier. People would adapt. I've encountered SF which deals in time as metric numbers of seconds - so many kilosec, a few megasec and so on. People would indeed get used to it. I think Charlie Stross referred to a human as a "primitive biological system that was barely capable of maintaining state coherence for a couple of gigaseconds", a wonderful phrase. > As a compromise, we could revert to Julian dates for everything and > sing: > > ?2303347 is in my mistress' face, > And 2303438 in her eyes hath place; > Within her bosom is 2303500, > But in her heart a cold 2303591. ? (Thomas Morley, 1594) > > Works for me. ?Wonder if the Trekkies would use star dates... > > Over in the great Metric Brotherhood, how many eggs are in a carton? Sometimes 6, sometimes 10, sometimes 12. The 2 trays in the door of my fridge for some reason hold 8 eggs each, which doesn't align with any carton size I've seen and has no convenient denominator with the packaging size. Go figure. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 08:39:29 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 14:39:29 +0100 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C011911.60902@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 29/05/2010 05:41, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sat, 29 May 2010, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > >> identical inside. I also believe that the 1540 can be upgraded by >> replacing the firmware with that from the 1541. >> > ...and thereby utterly destroying the collectability of the 1540 drive. :) Which is why when I repaired the one I have and found it had a duff rom, I replaced it with an eprom copy of the original ROM, as I guess my chances of sourcing the actual ROM are pretty close to 0. Cheers. Phill. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 29 09:28:12 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 07:28:12 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC>, <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: > From: lproven at gmail.com ---snip--- > > Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; > unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all > connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is > 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks > like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but > three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what > you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. > > It's about as sensible, practical and useful as Roman numerals. > Hi The only problem is that decimal don't fit the physical world well. Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. 1/8 and 1/32 make more sense in the physical world. Decimal is just what you learned in school. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 29 09:42:32 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 08:42:32 -0600 Subject: Video standards - chroma In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C006BE3.1010806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C0127D8.6090402@jetnet.ab.ca> Randy Dawson wrote: > Chanel 2, 54Mhz the lowest of the channels, Houston TX was reported > with reception in the UK I guess this why the BBC produced so few westerns. :) > Salt dome ground plane in the Houston area was cited as a reason, but > this channel was well known for DX TV reception. > Ben. From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 29 09:46:23 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 15:46:23 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 3:28 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> From: lproven at gmail.com > ---snip--- > >> >> Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; >> unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all >> connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is >> 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks >> like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but >> three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what >> you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. >> >> It's about as sensible, practical and useful as Roman numerals. > > Hi > > ?The only problem is that decimal don't fit the physical world well. > > Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. > > 1/8 and 1/32 make more sense in the physical world. > > ?Decimal is just what you learned in school. Speak for yourself! Seriously, fractions are no more "natural". We learn numbers and division as well in exactly the same way. I use halves, thirds and quarters occasionally, not often, but to be honest, I'm just as likely to talk about point 5 or point 2 5 or point 3 or something. E.g. I am 1.88m tall and weigh 106kg, although I'm working on getting back to 85kg or so as I was in 2005. I am also 6 foot 2, but then, I remembered that from my youth. It doesn't change! My weight does and I no longer have any idea what I weigh in stones. By a decade or so ago, more of the people I dealt with used metric, so I switched over the only thing I've ever weighed in stones or any imperial unit - my own bodyweight. Even in childhood or in school in the early 1970s, weights and measures were metric only. Sure, speed limits on the road are in mph, but I don't have any particular problem thinking in klicks instead. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 29 10:02:23 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 11:02:23 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C00A3FF.8070405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <4C001D7E.15036.2A3AFB5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C00A3FF.8070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > 10(base 10) plus 10(base 2) spare for breakage. Is that enough for SECDED? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 29 11:25:33 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 09:25:33 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2010 at 7:28, dwight elvey wrote: > Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. > Decimal is just what you learned in school. Exactly so! 10 in the natural scheme of things, other than being a notational convenience for people using base ten is not terribly useful other than being able to count on your fingers (the Mayans, with their base twenty system, evidently used their toes as well). My question about eggs attempted to show why there are other numbers that make more sense. Twelve is a number that's even divisible by 2, 3, 4 and 6, meaning that one can pack a dozen eggs as 1 row by 12 eggs, or 2 rows by 6 eggs or 3 rows by 4 eggs... It also means that I can purchase a half-dozen eggs by simply dividing a 2x6 or 4x3 carton in half--with 10 eggs, you have a loose single egg. Similarly, it's easy to sell a third, quarter or a sixth dozen--or three-quarters, two-thirds and five-sixths. Western music has a richness of harmonies that can be ascribed to a 12-tone system, rather than, say a 10 or 16 tone one. The Babylonians didn't get it wrong. A metric system based on 12 or 30 might have made life easier. Does anyone still make a calculator that works in fractions (ratios) instead of decimals? There used to be one, mostly intended for carpenters. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 29 11:37:08 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 09:37:08 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 2:47 AM -0700 5/29/10, Eric Smith wrote: >Found it. The "UI+" command will slow down a 1540 for use on a C64, >and "UI-" will speed it up again. Apparently when they wrote the >1540 firmware they anticipated that the bus might have to be slowed >down for use with some future computer. > >Although the 1541 defaults to slow mode, the same commands work, so >when using a 1541 on a VIC-20 you might want to give the "UI-" >command. > >Example: OPEN 15,8,15,"UI-":CLOSE 15 > >Eric Eric, Am I reading correctly that the 1540 sends data faster than the 1541? This brings up the obvious question, can you 'downgrade' a 1541 to a 1540! :-) I have multiple working 1541's, but only have 1 or 2 1540's in questionable condition (I believe one is literally in pieces). I'm still trying to organize and sort out the stuff I got in the two loads, and have barely looked at the hardware itself. I dug through a couple boxes of software, doc's and magazines last night. Some very interesting stuff. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brain at jbrain.com Sat May 29 12:09:07 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 12:09:07 -0500 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C014A33.4070408@jbrain.com> On 5/29/2010 11:37 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 2:47 AM -0700 5/29/10, Eric Smith wrote: >> Found it. The "UI+" command will slow down a 1540 for use on a C64, >> and "UI-" will speed it up again. Apparently when they wrote the >> 1540 firmware they anticipated that the bus might have to be slowed >> down for use with some future computer. >> >> Although the 1541 defaults to slow mode, the same commands work, so >> when using a 1541 on a VIC-20 you might want to give the "UI-" command. >> >> Example: OPEN 15,8,15,"UI-":CLOSE 15 >> >> Eric > > Eric, > Am I reading correctly that the 1540 sends data faster than the 1541? > > This brings up the obvious question, can you 'downgrade' a 1541 to a > 1540! :-) I have multiple working 1541's, but only have 1 or 2 1540's > in questionable condition (I believe one is literally in pieces). If you have a long board 1541, you can swap out the ROM with a 1540 ROM image > > I'm still trying to organize and sort out the stuff I got in the two > loads, and have barely looked at the hardware itself. I dug through a > couple boxes of software, doc's and magazines last night. Some very > interesting stuff. From brain at jbrain.com Sat May 29 12:28:55 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 12:28:55 -0500 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> On 5/29/2010 4:47 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Found it. The "UI+" command will slow down a 1540 for use on a C64, > and "UI-" will speed it up again. Apparently when they wrote the 1540 > firmware they anticipated that the bus might have to be slowed down > for use with some future computer. The UI- command does not exist in the 1540 ROM. Commodore did not think that far ahead. The story goes that Tramiel was unhappy with the price and availability of the IEEE-488 cables on the PET line, and told the VIC designers to "get off that bus!". They looked at the VIA 6522 and designed a serial protocol around the use of the shift register. Late in the game, software developers became aware of the 6522 Shift Register "bug", and so had to retreat back to bit banging the bus. So, for that bug, the serial speed went from CLK/32 to transfer a byte down to CLK/320 or so. Then, when the C64 was in development, they improved the VIC-I to do 40 columns. By the time they got done, the VIC-II had to "steal" cycles in order to do it's work. This corrupted disk transfers because the "steal" took away more time that the cycle time of the IEC protocol. So, the IEC protocol was slowed from 20uS to 60uS on the 154X->C64 direction. The 1540 ROM had to be updated to slow down the transfer, and thus UI+/- was introduced. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From RichA at vulcan.com Sat May 29 12:38:18 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 10:38:18 -0700 Subject: A Shakespearean comedy [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: <00dd01cafea3$d7e2cd90$1efdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: Thanks, it's been since high school (that is, more than 40 years) since I worried about the decameter and hectometer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joost van de Griek Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 12:04 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: A Shakespearean comedy [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] On 29 May 2010 02:44, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:52 PM > >> Andrew Burton [aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk] wrote: > >>> Decimeter... haven't heard that in years. > >> There's decametre too (another now obsolete unit). Never >> heard centameter so I've no idea if that exists. > > That's hektameter[1]. Hectometer. .tsooJ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat May 29 12:45:06 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 12:45:06 -0500 Subject: Bodylink System (C64/C128) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0152A2.40404@oldskool.org> Well, Dan chisarick from the software collector's mailing list just posted something he was getting rid of: Cardiovascular Fitness Lab (Apple ][) > Note: Comes with a proprietary Apple interface card which connects to a sensor that clips on your ear lobe. Interesting if you collect odd Apple titles. Not sure if it was the same company or not. On 5/28/2010 9:12 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I just found an interesting sales pamphlet in some of the stuff from the > January Commodore delivery. It was mixed in with a bunch of non-Computer > books that I also got, so I hadn't noticed it when I went through the > Commodore stuff from that load. > > Has anyone heard of, or seen, a series of sensors, electrodes and > cartridges from an outfit called "Bodylog, Inc."? It looks like you > plugged the "Bodylink" into the cartridge slot, which had its own > cartridge slot, microprocessor, and I/O channels for various sensors and > electrodes. Pretty wild, I've never seen anything like this for a > Commodore Computer. > > One of the most interesting things is a "Micromem Cartridge", a solid > state storage device for storing Bodylink BASIC programs. > > Zane > > > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 29 11:33:45 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 17:33:45 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK References: Message-ID: <00f101caff57$27b37370$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:46 PM Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK > Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] wrote: > > > Beverages are a mixed picture here. > > And here. As I don't drink spirits I've no idea how much a > "measure" mightn be ... I just assume that local Trading Standards > know and check. The pint glasses and half pint glasses have a mark > (I assume those are checked too). > > > What the heck is a Gas Mark? > > It's a number on the knob on an old style oven - the newer ones > are in C (or F or both). On the odd occasion that I cook I find > that the numbers don't really make much difference to the output > ... that's one of the reasons I stick to computers :-) > > Antonio > Quite correct. The number of times I remember watching Blue Peter and various cookery shows in the 80's and 90's, they usually said cook at Gas Mark 4 for 20 minutes. Were there ever Electric Marks? I know my gran used to have an electric oven (we have a gas one at home), but it's been almost a decade since I last saw it and it's now long gone. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 29 12:05:57 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 18:05:57 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 2:55 AM Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK > > Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; > unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all > connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is > 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks > like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but > three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what > you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. > > It's about as sensible, practical and useful as Roman numerals. Actually, I think Roman Numerals are pretty cool. Ok, I only understand the particular format usually used for dates (e.g. MMVII = 2007), but I am aware there are (atleast) two other formats for Roman Numerals (neither of which I have learnt to understand yet - as I haven't tried to). Without Roman Numerals, would we ever have had sexadecimal / hexadecimal?? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 12:12:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 18:12:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at May 28, 10 05:30:35 pm Message-ID: ['scope Z input] > > on that input=2C which is generally not very useful for a computer (or=20 > > videogame) display. > >=20 > > Hey Dan=2C > > what? > > Never in my life saw that=2C Z is always DC=2C specified as positive signal= > decreases intensity. Tube will stay dark all day long with voltage applie= > d=2C its not cap coupled. Every analogue 'scope that I've used or worked on has had a capacively-coupled Z input. It makes sense. You want to have the deflection plates close to earth potential which means the cathode is at a high (several kV) negative voltage. To apply a signal to that (which is what Z modulation does), it's easiest to capacitively couple it. Many vector monitors aee electromagnetically deflected, like a TV, so the cathode can be run close to earth potential (with a high +ve voltage on the final anode). In which case you can DC-couple the Z modulation signal easily. I can't rememebr what HP did in the 1311, etc. That's electrostatically deflected, but it also hasa DC-coupled Z input. I will have to look it up -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 12:19:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 18:19:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at May 28, 10 09:54:03 pm Message-ID: > I've tested the Vcc pins on all the chips that are on the board and none > show +5. The A500 works without issue so I know the power supply is ok. > I can find +5 on the .100 dual pin header that the memory expander plugs > in to, but no where else. +12V does show up on the molex power connector > for the drive. > > I've also checked both sides of what look like tantalum caps and I get no > power there either. I can't see any visible damage to the board, no cut > or scratched traces, etc. I'm at a total loss as to why it's not getting > any power. Is there anythign on the PCB that could be a picofuse (may look like a resistor, just to confuse you!). That's the only thing I'd expect ot possibly be in series with a 5V supply to an expansiopn board. It's not something silly like a dry joint on the connector, or a broekn contact, is it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 11:55:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 17:55:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <201005281645.14026.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at May 28, 10 04:45:13 pm Message-ID: > > And the mercury in my thermometer is frozen anyway... > > You should replace the obsolete piece of junk with a new digital one. Consdiiering the idfiot EU Bureaucrats have banned mercury-in-glass thermometers (I believe), I might just have to :-( > If you're short on digital thermometers, take a modern PC that you find > on the curb from a neighbor pitching it, and run it to use its on-board > ambient temperature sensor though an ActiveX app running on Windows 7 to > tell you the temperature. > > It's Better. Trust Me. :) What if I need to measure the temperature of a liquid where there's no mains power around?... I do have a digital termometer set-up. Of course it's related to a classic computer (HP41 + Data Acquisition ROM + HPIL + HP3421 + thermocouple or Pt resistance thermomneter) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 12:30:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 18:30:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 29, 10 09:25:33 am Message-ID: > > On 29 May 2010 at 7:28, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. > > Decimal is just what you learned in school. > > Exactly so! 10 in the natural scheme of things, other than being a > notational convenience for people using base ten is not terribly > useful other than being able to count on your fingers (the Mayans, > with their base twenty system, evidently used their toes as well). Except it doesn't _really_ make sense for counting on your fingers either. Start off with all fingers down (that's 0). Now put them up one after the other, counting to 10. Now, the next state is surely all fingers down, and 1 carried to the next person. Which means base 11 is actiually more natural. If you use base 10, then 10 has 2 represenations (all fingers on 1st person up, or all fintgers on 1st person down, with one carried to the next person). If you want to count on one hand at a time, then base 6 works quite nicely (and has the advantage of being a reasonably > Does anyone still make a calculator that works in fractions (ratios) > instead of decimals? There used to be one, mostly intended for > carpenters. Based on the behaviour of its predecessor, I think the HP50g does (and it hadnles them exactly, not as decimal approxiamtions which are converted back to fractions fo the display). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 12:05:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 18:05:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <8E18CCF37E44474FB4F91DC18E054B4B@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at May 28, 10 10:42:04 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > Am I the only person who objects to a _weight_ being quoted > > in kg? When I > > was asekd for my body weight, I gave it in newtons :-) > > I'm sure she meant to write kgf. BTW did you assume 9.81m/s^2 or Actaully, this was a qurstion on a job application form. Quite what the relevance of my weight is to my abilities as an electronic designer is totally beyond me, so I deceided to 'have some fun'.... No I didn't get the job, but after seeing the organisation i wouldn't have wanted it anyway. > did you account for local gravitational field strength variations :-) The former... Mind you _they_ didn't speicify the place where they wanted me ot measure my weight, so I think taking a nominal value for g is justified... > > And it's one of the most stupid laws we have! Provided both parties > > involved in the transaction agree on what is being traded, > > the governemnt > > should not interfere. If I want to buy 5 yards of cable, and > > the shop is > > prepared to cut me that length, what is the problem? > > The problem is that some smart Alec will sell you 5 Elbonian > yards (but the Elbonian part will be in really small print, in > white ink on a white background). Weights and measures have been > regulated in various ways, in various places for a long time. > The only thing that's changed recently is the units that can > be used. A free-for-all will just let the con merchants thrive But that is a problem whatever units are used. I could sell you 5 metres of cable and claim I was using a 'metre' other than the standard one. No I don't think I'd get away with it, just as I don't think that you'd get away with using some odd 'yard'. I think you should be able to use any units you like provided they have an accepted definition (all the imperial units do). And if I ever have to ask for a 6.35mm tap, 1.27mm pitch, 0.96 radian thread angle (as against a 1/4 inch BSW tap) I will go insane! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 12:34:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 18:34:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: M51976FP pinout? Message-ID: I am looking for a pinout or datasheet for a chip labelled M51976FP. It appears to be made by Mitsubishi, it's a SMPSU controller in a 20 pin SOIC package. I have the data on the M51977, which is similar (I think), but some pins are clearly different. Looking on datasheetarchiver and digchip didn't find anything. And a google search (as ever) found plenty of people who sould sell me 100000 of them, but nothing else). [It's uised in a PSU modile in an HP tape drive that I am working on, so it does have som relevance to classic computers0. Thanks in advance for any help -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 12:07:31 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 18:07:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: from "arcarlini@iee.org" at May 28, 10 10:46:07 pm Message-ID: > It's a number on the knob on an old style oven - the newer ones > are in C (or F or both). On the odd occasion that I cook I find And if you ever try to calibrate an oven thermostat you will find those figures bear absolutely no relationship to any normal temperature scale. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 29 14:10:06 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 20:10:06 +0100 Subject: OT: Dads Army (Re: Pravetz 82) References: , <4BFC1035.3420.24F43B5@cclist.sydex.com>, <1274851020.6448.17.camel@fubar> <4BFC52F1.24827.353F2D0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <010601caff62$90b96ef0$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 6:45 AM Subject: Re: Pravetz 82 > On 26 May 2010 at 14:47, Alexis wrote: > > > Being used to a 60Hz field rate would make the 50Hz frame rate > > flickery and obvious, because it's right on the edge of what the human > > eye can perceive as a solid image. > > Thank you for the link. A related link: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjK-b4x9ZmQ > > talks about the Beeb restoring color to black-and-white prints. Very > ingenious. > > It's also the first time I'd seen a clip of "Dad's Army"--up until > now, I've only heard the radio version and formed my own mental > pictures. It's a bit jarring to have them shattered. > That's a classic. I have read the book, seen the film and the TV series many times. Infact, BBC2 (UK) are showing the first series (in B&W) of Dads Army every Saturday. For me, actors such as Arthur Lowe, John Le Mesurier, Clive Dunn and Ian Lavendar helped to make it such a great hit, and a very memorable programme. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 29 14:49:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 12:49:31 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C016FCB.4030000@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Am I reading correctly that the 1540 sends data faster than the 1541? By default, yes. Either drive can do serial bus transfers at either speed. > This brings up the obvious question, can you 'downgrade' a 1541 to a > 1540! :-) Yes, either temporarily by using the "UI-" command, or permanently by replacing the ROM. Other than the ROM contents, the hardware is functionally identical. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 29 14:59:31 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 12:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC>, <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <20100529124629.V72474@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 29 May 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > The only problem is that decimal don't fit the physical world well. > Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. > 1/8 and 1/32 make more sense in the physical world. > Decimal is just what you learned in school. . . . and based on the very arbitrary basis of number of fingers. Q: then why not base 20? A: because the more dominant (agressive) cultures came from climates where feet were kept bundled up for warmth, and stank too much to expose them publicly As to the 8 egg holders in the fridge, perhaps it is related to why hot dogs are sold 10 to a pack, and hot dog buns are sold 8 to a pack. One cynical answer to that would be a deliberate attempt to force you to buy 40 at a time. Or maybe it is due to the same cause for number of appetizers tending to be realively prime with the number of diners? Or perhaps it is a natural function within the earth, attempting to adjust towards 6 * 7 to get 42? 'course the arrival of our Golgafrincham ancestors cocked that all up. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 15:03:15 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 21:03:15 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C017303.1090002@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 29 May 2010 at 7:28, dwight elvey wrote: >> Does anyone still make a calculator that works in fractions (ratios) >> instead of decimals? There used to be one, mostly intended for >> carpenters. > > Based on the behaviour of its predecessor, I think the HP50g does (and it > hadnles them exactly, not as decimal approxiamtions which are converted > back to fractions fo the display). My Sharp EL-W521 scientific seems to default to fractions, and yeah it does sem to handle them exactly AFAICT. Even has a key to cycle between proper fraction, vulgar fraction and decimal fraction e.g. 3/2 = 1 1/2 = 3/2 = 1.5 Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 15:16:04 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 21:16:04 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C017604.3060609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>> And the mercury in my thermometer is frozen anyway... >> You should replace the obsolete piece of junk with a new digital one. > > Consdiiering the idfiot EU Bureaucrats have banned mercury-in-glass > thermometers (I believe), I might just have to :-( I'm sorry I have to take issue with this, in what way is banning the use of a (resonably large amount) of hazadous material (Mercury) a bad thing ? Especially when it can be replaced with a non/less hazadous replacement that can do the job just as well. And yes there is Mercury in other household things CFL bulbs for example, but it is at a much lower concentration and cannot easily be replaced by a less hazadous substance that can do the job as well. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 29 15:25:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 13:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C017604.3060609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4C017604.3060609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20100529132315.T72474@shell.lmi.net> > > Consdiiering the idfiot EU Bureaucrats have banned mercury-in-glass > > thermometers (I believe), I might just have to :-( On Sat, 29 May 2010, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > I'm sorry I have to take issue with this, in what way is banning the use > of a (resonably large amount) of hazadous material (Mercury) a bad thing ? > Especially when it can be replaced with a non/less hazadous replacement > that can do the job just as well. What can I put into that glass thermometer to replace the mercury? Won't I have to recalibrate it? > And yes there is Mercury in other household things CFL bulbs for > example, but it is at a much lower concentration and cannot easily be > replaced by a less hazadous substance that can do the job as well. What can I put into the vial to replace the mercury in my thermostat? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 29 15:32:27 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 13:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100529132838.D72474@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 29 May 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Exactly so! 10 in the natural scheme of things, other than being a > notational convenience for people using base ten is not terribly > useful other than being able to count on your fingers (the Mayans, > with their base twenty system, evidently used their toes as well). 'course their calendar only goes to 2012 > My question about eggs attempted to show why there are other numbers > that make more sense. Twelve is a number that's even divisible by 2, > 3, 4 and 6, meaning that one can pack a dozen eggs as 1 row by 12 > eggs, or 2 rows by 6 eggs or 3 rows by 4 eggs... It also means that > I can purchase a half-dozen eggs by simply dividing a 2x6 or 4x3 > carton in half--with 10 eggs, you have a loose single egg. > Similarly, it's easy to sell a third, quarter or a sixth dozen--or > three-quarters, two-thirds and five-sixths. . . . and if you cook 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, or 12 at a time, you don't end up with loose ones. And you can split them evenly if you are cooking for 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 0r 12 people. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat May 29 15:36:11 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 21:36:11 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100529132315.T72474@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C017604.3060609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20100529132315.T72474@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C017ABB.50703@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Consdiiering the idfiot EU Bureaucrats have banned mercury-in-glass >>> thermometers (I believe), I might just have to :-( > > On Sat, 29 May 2010, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >> I'm sorry I have to take issue with this, in what way is banning the use >> of a (resonably large amount) of hazadous material (Mercury) a bad thing ? >> Especially when it can be replaced with a non/less hazadous replacement >> that can do the job just as well. > > What can I put into that glass thermometer to replace the mercury? > Won't I have to recalibrate it? That's not what I meant and you know it, if the themometer is broken then you replace it. If it's not broken and you are using it privately then you are free to go on using it for as long as you wish. I believe that if you are using it in cirtain industries (i.e. healthcare) then the replacement is manditory. The ban or whatever is only on the sale of NEW equipment. Likewise the no lead in solder, that only applies to new equipment, and IIRC if you are repairing old equipment it is still ok to use leaded solder as I believe there are problems if you mix solder types. >> And yes there is Mercury in other household things CFL bulbs for >> example, but it is at a much lower concentration and cannot easily be >> replaced by a less hazadous substance that can do the job as well. > > What can I put into the vial to replace the mercury in my thermostat? See comments above. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 29 15:42:01 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 13:42:01 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4C017C19.7060308@brouhaha.com> Jim Brain wrote: > > The UI- command does not exist in the 1540 ROM. Commodore did not > think that far ahead. Hmmm... You must be right. Looking at a disassembly of the 1540 ROM, I can't even figure out how UI+ would have worked properly on it either. Unlike the 1541 ROM, the UI vector never checks for a + or -, doesn't set the value of zero-page location $23 (which is never used), and jumps into the reset code. Must be something strange and very non-obvious going on in there. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat May 29 15:44:41 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 13:44:41 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C016FCB.4030000@brouhaha.com> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> <4C016FCB.4030000@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 12:49 PM -0700 5/29/10, Eric Smith wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>This brings up the obvious question, can you 'downgrade' a 1541 to >>a 1540! :-) >Yes, either temporarily by using the "UI-" command, or permanently >by replacing the ROM. Other than the ROM contents, the hardware is >functionally identical. Nice! Thanks for clarifying that. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sat May 29 15:56:14 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 13:56:14 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C017C19.7060308@brouhaha.com> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> <4C017C19.7060308@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C017F6E.4070502@brouhaha.com> Jim Brain wrote: >> >> The UI- command does not exist in the 1540 ROM. Commodore did not >> think that far ahead. I wrote: > Hmmm... You must be right. Looking at a disassembly of the 1540 ROM, > I can't even figure out how UI+ would have worked properly on it > either. Unlike the 1541 ROM, the UI vector never checks for a + or -, > doesn't set the value of zero-page location $23 (which is never used), > and jumps into the reset code. Must be something strange and very > non-obvious going on in there. The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that the sheet of paper I got with my C64 and 1540 back in 1982, explaining how to use the 1540 with the C64, must have suggested something other than the UI command. Maybe it said to turn off the C64 display when reading from the disk? I can't remember now. Or maybe my 1540 already contained a 1541 ROM, and the paper was explaining how to use the UI- command to use it with a VIC-20. That's starting to seem like the most likely explanation. Darn this unreliable memory! Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 29 16:46:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 14:46:29 -0700 Subject: OT: Dads Army (Re: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: <010601caff62$90b96ef0$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> References: , <010601caff62$90b96ef0$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4C0128C5.9156.16279D9@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2010 at 20:10, Andrew Burton wrote: > That's a classic. I have read the book, seen the film and the TV > series many times. Infact, BBC2 (UK) are showing the first series (in > B&W) of Dads Army every Saturday. For me, actors such as Arthur Lowe, > John Le Mesurier, Clive Dunn and Ian Lavendar helped to make it such a > great hit, and a very memorable programme. BBC 7 (internet, DAB, DTV) has been running the series (along with The Goon Show, Hancock's Half-hour, Take it From Me...., etc.) forever, which is where I got acquainted with it. Some of the old BBC comedy shows were pure genius. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 29 17:07:38 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 16:07:38 -0600 Subject: OT: Dads Army (Re: Pravetz 82) In-Reply-To: <4C0128C5.9156.16279D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <010601caff62$90b96ef0$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C0128C5.9156.16279D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C01902A.4020400@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 May 2010 at 20:10, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> That's a classic. I have read the book, seen the film and the TV >> series many times. Infact, BBC2 (UK) are showing the first series (in >> B&W) of Dads Army every Saturday. For me, actors such as Arthur Lowe, >> John Le Mesurier, Clive Dunn and Ian Lavendar helped to make it such a >> great hit, and a very memorable programme. > > BBC 7 (internet, DAB, DTV) has been running the series (along with > The Goon Show, Hancock's Half-hour, Take it From Me...., etc.) > forever, which is where I got acquainted with it. Some of the old > BBC comedy shows were pure genius. On this side of the Pond , PBS shows the odd BBC program with the Dr. Who often in movie format ( the entire sequel ) Saturdays rather than a daily 1/2 hour episode. > --Chuck > Faulty Towers comes to mind as typical BBC classic. Ben. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat May 29 17:22:54 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 15:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C017F6E.4070502@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "May 29, 10 01:56:14 pm" Message-ID: <201005292222.o4TMMsmk013102@floodgap.com> > The more I look at it, the more convinced I am that the sheet of paper I > got with my C64 and 1540 back in 1982, explaining how to use the 1540 > with the C64, must have suggested something other than the UI command. > Maybe it said to turn off the C64 display when reading from the disk? Yes. Something like POKE 53265,11 would do it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There's always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby. -- Tom Waits ------------- From lproven at gmail.com Sun May 30 11:18:36 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 17:18:36 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Liam Proven" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 2:55 AM > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK > > >> >> Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; >> unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all >> connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is >> 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks >> like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but >> three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what >> you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. > >> >> It's about as sensible, practical and useful as Roman numerals. > > Actually, I think Roman Numerals are pretty cool. Oh, they're quite fun, and are still used for decorative counting purposes. The primary snag with them is that they not only do not facilitate arithmetic, they actually hinder it, as a non-positional system with embedded calculations - e.g. MMIX for 2009, where you have to mentally take one from the final ten to yield nine. Positional notation works much better, and for it, you really need a zero, which Roman numerals never fully adopted. This is why most of the world quickly adopted Arabic numerals, which themselves borrowed the Hindu invention of zero. Not only the West - the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and other users of non-alphabetic scripts have also adopted modern Western-style Arabic numerals. > Ok, I only understand the > particular format usually used for dates (e.g. MMVII = 2007), but I am aware > there are (atleast) two other formats for Roman Numerals (neither of which I > have learnt to understand yet - as I haven't tried to). Oh really? Such as? I'm aware of using lower-case letters but this doesn't really change anything. > Without Roman Numerals, would we ever have had sexadecimal / hexadecimal?? I don't follow. Hex is a straighforward modification of Arabic numerals for base16 instead of base10. (As is octal). There is no influence in it from Roman numerals that I'm aware of. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun May 30 11:20:41 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 17:20:41 +0100 Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100529124629.V72474@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <20100529124629.V72474@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 29 May 2010, dwight elvey wrote: >> ?The only problem is that decimal don't fit the physical world well. >> Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. >> 1/8 and 1/32 make more sense in the physical world. >> ?Decimal is just what you learned in school. > > . . . and based on the very arbitrary basis of number of fingers. > > Q: then why not base 20? > A: because the more dominant (agressive) cultures came from climates where > feet were kept bundled up for warmth, and stank too much to expose them > publicly :?D Like it! Mind you, I don't think I've met anyone with the flexibility and control to individually raise and lower toes to count on... > As to the 8 egg holders in the fridge, perhaps it is related to why hot > dogs are sold 10 to a pack, and hot dog buns are sold 8 to a pack. ?One > cynical answer to that would be a deliberate attempt to force you to buy > 40 at a time. Soemthing like that. Wastage makes money. :?( > ?Or maybe it is due to the same cause for number of > appetizers tending to be realively prime with the number of diners? Ooooh... Bistromathics, now! > Or perhaps it is a natural function within the earth, attempting to > adjust towards 6 * 7 to get 42? ?'course the arrival of our Golgafrincham > ancestors cocked that all up. Oh yes indeed! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun May 30 11:22:26 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 18:22:26 +0200 Subject: H960 rack available Message-ID: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Available for one who wants it, a Dec H960 rack. No sidepanels, nor a masthead. Note, the rack is in the Netherlands. Will go to the scrappers at the end of June. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From spedraja at ono.com Sun May 30 12:57:57 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:57:57 +0200 Subject: H960 rack available In-Reply-To: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hello. I was searching for one rack for my PDP equipment from years ago. What dimensions has this one ? Regards Sergio 2010/5/30 E. Groenenberg > > Available for one who wants it, a Dec H960 rack. > > No sidepanels, nor a masthead. > > Note, the rack is in the Netherlands. > > Will go to the scrappers at the end of June. > > -- > Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun May 30 13:00:04 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 2010, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> There's a couple of folks that have hooked 1541 drives to their ZX-81 >> computers. ?Anything that will talk the IEC serial protocol can use the >> drives. > > So is there a USB interface for it yet? ;) > I think someone is working on it. I think it's called the XU1541 adapter. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun May 30 13:02:38 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 2010, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > >>> identical inside. I also believe that the 1540 can be upgraded by >>> replacing the firmware with that from the 1541. >>> >> ...and thereby utterly destroying the collectability of the 1540 >> drive. :) > > But you can keep a copy of the original firmware so it's a reversible > change, no? > Yes, but with the current glut of 1541 drives, it would still be a hanging offense. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun May 30 13:14:44 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> I've tested the Vcc pins on all the chips that are on the board and none >> show +5. The A500 works without issue so I know the power supply is ok. >> I can find +5 on the .100 dual pin header that the memory expander plugs >> in to, but no where else. +12V does show up on the molex power connector >> for the drive. >> >> I've also checked both sides of what look like tantalum caps and I get no >> power there either. I can't see any visible damage to the board, no cut >> or scratched traces, etc. I'm at a total loss as to why it's not getting >> any power. > > Is there anythign on the PCB that could be a picofuse (may look like a > resistor, just to confuse you!). That's the only thing I'd expect ot > possibly be in series with a 5V supply to an expansiopn board. > There are only a few resistors on the board and nothing that looks like a pico fuse. The supply comes from the A500 and I can find it on one of the pins that is the memory expansion connector on the scsi board, but it doesn't appear to go farther than that. > It's not something silly like a dry joint on the connector, or a broekn > contact, is it? > That's just it, I haven't seen anything. That's why it's making me nuts. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 30 12:35:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 18:35:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <20100529124629.V72474@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 29, 10 12:59:31 pm Message-ID: > > Decimal is just what you learned in school. > > . . . and based on the very arbitrary basis of number of fingers. You mean number of finger _plus thumbs_. If it was the number of fingers only, we'd use octal, which IMHO is a much nicer number system. [Base 8 is just like base 10 really, if you're missing 2 fingers -- Tom Lehrer] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 30 12:42:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 18:42:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C017604.3060609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at May 29, 10 09:16:04 pm Message-ID: > > Consdiiering the idfiot EU Bureaucrats have banned mercury-in-glass > > thermometers (I believe), I might just have to :-( > > I'm sorry I have to take issue with this, in what way is banning the use > of a (resonably large amount) of hazadous material (Mercury) a bad thing ? I thoiught metalic mercury wasn't all that harmful, it's the salts that are very toxic. > Especially when it can be replaced with a non/less hazadous replacement > that can do the job just as well. There must have been a good reason for using mercury in the first place, and it wasn;t cost ;-).And therefore I douibt the alternatives 'do the job just as well'. Actually, for reasons of cost, moist thermometers don't use mercury anyway. The ones that did, did so for, I suspect, technical reasons. I don';t beleive there was enoguh mercury used in thermomneters to be a hazard, but when it was used, it was used because it was the best material to use, And that's what bothers me about the ban. But there is one plaec I would not use a mercury thermomneter. Checking the temperature of an electromagnetic device such as a transformer or a motor. It's quite possible to induce eddy currents in the mercury and have the thermometer read too high. > > And yes there is Mercury in other household things CFL bulbs for > example, but it is at a much lower concentration and cannot easily be > replaced by a less hazadous substance that can do the job as well. The UV lamp in my EPROM eraser is a 6" long hot-cathode dischage tube, similar ot a flouresecent tube with a special envelope (to transmit the UV light) and no phosphor coating. I can see a quite a few droplets of mercury insde that lamp when it's cold. I susepct the CFLs run at a lower pressure, but I still suspet the total amount of mercury in use in all the CFLs is a sizeable amount. Oh, and don;t get me started on the lightbulb ban... -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun May 30 13:28:09 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:28:09 +0200 Subject: H960 rack available In-Reply-To: References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <8e9cca03b6377bd03c55f2382f65f875.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Sergio, It is a standard high cabinet from DEC, i.e. 60cm wide, 180 cm high, approx 70 cm deep. Regards, Ed > Hello. > > I was searching for one rack for my PDP equipment from years ago. What > dimensions has this one ? > > Regards > Sergio > > 2010/5/30 E. Groenenberg > >> >> Available for one who wants it, a Dec H960 rack. >> >> No sidepanels, nor a masthead. >> >> Note, the rack is in the Netherlands. >> >> Will go to the scrappers at the end of June. >> >> -- >> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. >> >> > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 30 13:34:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:34:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at May 30, 10 11:14:44 am Message-ID: > There are only a few resistors on the board and nothing that looks like a > pico fuse. The supply comes from the A500 and I can find it on one of the OK. Do they have labels like 'R1'. 'R2', etc. If so, just check there isn't an 'F1' amongst them (it caught me once...). And just to be sure, cehck the votlage on each end of each ressitor (board plugged in, machine powered up, of course), just in case one _is_ a fuse in series with the 5V line. If you find 5V on one ened of one component, you have a place to start looking... > pins that is the memory expansion connector on the scsi board, but it > doesn't appear to go farther than that. Can you explain the set-up, please. What is connected to what, and where the PSU is connected to (the A500 mainboard, right)? If you plug in this expanison board that you can't find 5V on, does the Amiga still work, or at least, can you still find 5V on the chips on the Amiga (and any other expanins devices) _with this board connected. I am wondering if this board is shorting out the 5V line, rather than it simplky not being connected. With the expansion board removed, check the resistance between a 5V pin and ground on one of the chips,. The value is meaningless, it'll depeend on the mryer, but if it's very loq, I would suspect a short. Now check the resistance brtween the 5V pin on the connector and the ground on that board. Is it infinite, indicating an open-circuit somewhere? > > > It's not something silly like a dry joint on the connector, or a broekn > > contact, is it? > > > That's just it, I haven't seen anything. That's why it's making me nuts. > :) Been there, seen that, all too many times :-) -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Sun May 30 13:45:56 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:45:56 -0700 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 9:26 AM > On 29 May 2010 at 7:28, dwight elvey wrote: >> Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. >> Decimal is just what you learned in school. > Exactly so! 10 in the natural scheme of things, other than being a > notational convenience for people using base ten is not terribly > useful other than being able to count on your fingers (the Mayans, > with their base twenty system, evidently used their toes as well). There is a language in the Amazon Basin, I believe Pirah?, (and this is not like the "1,2,many" urban legend--there are write-ups in linguistic journals) which works in base 19. Each finger joint, the back of the hand, the wrist, the forearm, the upper arm, and the shoulder are the counting points. In human language, there is no such thing as "the natural scheme of things". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sun May 30 13:52:50 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 11:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Hot dogs vs buns (was OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <834670.71351.qm@web114612.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > As to the 8 egg holders in the fridge, perhaps it is > related to why hot dogs are sold 10 to a pack, and hot > dog buns are sold 8 to a pack.? One cynical answer to > that would be a deliberate attempt to force you to buy > 40 at a time.? Or maybe it is due to the same cause > for number of appetizers tending to be realively prime > with the number of diners? This is an critical, longstanding problem that needs to be addressed. Here is an attempt to do so: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhXzM70CNrw From spedraja at ono.com Sun May 30 13:58:27 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:58:27 +0200 Subject: H960 rack available In-Reply-To: <8e9cca03b6377bd03c55f2382f65f875.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <8e9cca03b6377bd03c55f2382f65f875.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Thanks, Ed. Sergio 2010/5/30 E. Groenenberg > Hello Sergio, > > It is a standard high cabinet from DEC, i.e. 60cm wide, 180 cm high, > approx 70 cm deep. > > Regards, > > Ed > > ---------- http://es.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja/en From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun May 30 14:02:11 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:02:11 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Consdiiering the idfiot EU Bureaucrats have banned mercury-in-glass >>> thermometers (I believe), I might just have to :-( >> I'm sorry I have to take issue with this, in what way is banning the use >> of a (resonably large amount) of hazadous material (Mercury) a bad thing ? > > I thoiught metalic mercury wasn't all that harmful, it's the salts that > are very toxic. Well liquid metalic mercury isn't that hazadous, however I believe that the vapor is dangerous if inhaled of course. >> Especially when it can be replaced with a non/less hazadous replacement >> that can do the job just as well. > > There must have been a good reason for using mercury in the first place, > and it wasn;t cost ;-).And therefore I douibt the alternatives 'do the > job just as well'. Well mercury has been known about for hundereds of years and I guess was the easiest to use when people first started making themometers. However I guess we have discovered other things that will do the same job with less toxicity. Oddly though the Max-Min thermometer I have in my office at work is cirtainly some sort of metalic substance, though it has been there for a couple of years now, so if it is mercury it must have been before the ban, as I can't imagine that we'd be allowed to use them at work....especially as my wife is deputy health and safety officer :) > Actually, for reasons of cost, moist thermometers don't use mercury Did you mean most :) :) > anyway. The ones that did, did so for, I suspect, technical reasons. I > don';t beleive there was enoguh mercury used in thermomneters to be a > hazard, but when it was used, it was used because it was the best > material to use, And that's what bothers me about the ban. Well I do believe the one place it is a real no-no is clinical settings I guess you don't want a patient accidentally chewing on it :) I do also seem to rememeber there being cases where young childeren became seriously ill when they ingested a mercury button cell. > But there is one plaec I would not use a mercury thermomneter. Checking > the temperature of an electromagnetic device such as a transformer or a > motor. It's quite possible to induce eddy currents in the mercury and > have the thermometer read too high. Because it heats up I guess. >> And yes there is Mercury in other household things CFL bulbs for >> example, but it is at a much lower concentration and cannot easily be >> replaced by a less hazadous substance that can do the job as well. > > The UV lamp in my EPROM eraser is a 6" long hot-cathode dischage tube, > similar ot a flouresecent tube with a special envelope (to transmit the > UV light) and no phosphor coating. I can see a quite a few droplets of > mercury insde that lamp when it's cold. I susepct the CFLs run at a lower > pressure, but I still suspet the total amount of mercury in use in all > the CFLs is a sizeable amount. Well yeah I suppose however I guess it's not as well concentrated in a single place, and I also believe the advice is that if you break a CFL (or any flurescent(sp?) for that matter), is to open the windows in the room to allow any mercury vapor to dissipate. > Oh, and don;t get me started on the lightbulb ban... Well I've pretty much used CFLs here for a few years now, they last longer (if correctly used), generate less heat, which is deffo an advantage for the anglepoise that I use for close work :) Guess I've just gotten used to them. Cheers, Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun May 30 14:05:32 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:05:32 +0100 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C02B6FC.9070306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Rich Alderson wrote: > There is a language in the Amazon Basin, I believe Pirah?, (and this is > not like the "1,2,many" urban legend--there are write-ups in linguistic > journals) which works in base 19. Each finger joint, the back of the > hand, the wrist, the forearm, the upper arm, and the shoulder are the > counting points. Dunno if this has already been mentioned but.... If you use a finger down as 0 and a finger up as 1, it's possible to count to 1023 on your fingers..... Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From rogpugh at mac.com Sun May 30 14:12:28 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:12:28 +0100 Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK - counting in 12's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C02B89C.9040204@mac.com> > You mean number of finger _plus thumbs_. If it was the number of fingers > only, we'd use octal, which IMHO is a much nicer number system. > > [Base 8 is just like base 10 really, if you're missing 2 fingers -- Tom > Lehrer] > > -tony > > There was a system from the ancient world using the segments of the fingers to count with the thumb as a marker. Each finger of the hand has 3 segments, so 3 X 4 =12 two hands, so 12 X 12 =144 Maybe this was the basis of a dozen. Roger From hachti at hachti.de Sun May 30 14:20:39 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 21:20:39 +0200 Subject: H960 rack available In-Reply-To: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C02BA87.4010908@hachti.de> Hi Ed, how much rust if any? feet? Overall condition? I have some rusty racks. So could probably use a nice and clean one. Would be a pity to send it to scrap. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 30 14:21:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:21:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at May 30, 10 08:02:11 pm Message-ID: > >> Especially when it can be replaced with a non/less hazadous replacement > >> that can do the job just as well. > > > > There must have been a good reason for using mercury in the first place, > > and it wasn;t cost ;-).And therefore I douibt the alternatives 'do the > > job just as well'. > > Well mercury has been known about for hundereds of years and I guess was > the easiest to use when people first started making themometers. However > I guess we have discovered other things that will do the same job with This is certainly not my subject, but if that were the case, why were mercury-in-glass thermometers made until very recently. There must be a good reason for usning it. > less toxicity. Oddly though the Max-Min thermometer I have in my office > at work is cirtainly some sort of metalic substance, though it has been Which is normally only used to couple the 2 little indicators. The main temperature-sensitive substace is alcohol (or something similar) in the tube/bulb above the 'min' inidcator. Ans yes, the coupling liquid in such thermometes certainly used to be mercury. > there for a couple of years now, so if it is mercury it must have been > before the ban, as I can't imagine that we'd be allowed to use them at > work....especially as my wife is deputy health and safety officer :) I guess I should keep my comments on such people to myself... > > > Actually, for reasons of cost, moist thermometers don't use mercury > > Did you mean most :) :) I did. I wasn't talking about hygrometers :-) :-) :-) > > > anyway. The ones that did, did so for, I suspect, technical reasons. I > > don';t beleive there was enoguh mercury used in thermomneters to be a > > hazard, but when it was used, it was used because it was the best > > material to use, And that's what bothers me about the ban. > > Well I do believe the one place it is a real no-no is clinical settings > I guess you don't want a patient accidentally chewing on it :) I do also I don;t beleive that swallowing that amount of liquid mercury would be that harmful.. > seem to rememeber there being cases where young childeren became > seriously ill when they ingested a mercury button cell. Yes, but mercury cells did not contain liquid mercury, but rather mercury componds. And those are certainly very toxic. > > > But there is one plaec I would not use a mercury thermomneter. Checking > > the temperature of an electromagnetic device such as a transformer or a > > motor. It's quite possible to induce eddy currents in the mercury and > > have the thermometer read too high. > > Because it heats up I guess. Exactly. You get I^2R heating in the mercury itself. > > Oh, and don;t get me started on the lightbulb ban... > > Well I've pretty much used CFLs here for a few years now, they last > longer (if correctly used), generate less heat, which is deffo an > advantage for the anglepoise that I use for close work :) Oh so have I, I actually prefer them for most applciations. That is, in all but 4 locations... 1) Over my lathe (the stroboscopic effect does seem to be noticeable) 2) In the darkroom (the CFLs have a long enouhg afterglow to fog film after being turned off for quite some time) 3) In the copying stand (the light spectrum from a CFL is useless for colour photography) 4) As ballast resistors (you don't seriously think a CFL will work there, do oyu?) Now what do I do in those 4 places when I can no longer get filament lamps? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 30 14:24:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:24:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: <4C02B6FC.9070306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at May 30, 10 08:05:32 pm Message-ID: > > If you use a finger down as 0 and a finger up as 1, it's possible to=20 > count to 1023 on your fingers..... I have never gone that far, but (seriously) I routinely count to 31 on one hand... I have never managed to use ternary or symmetric ternary (place valeus of -1, 0, 1) on my fingers, for all 3 states of each finger seem easily possible. Nor have I ever managed to get the base -2 sequeence (it starts 00000 00001 00110 00111 00100...) flowing nicely on my fingers. -tony From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun May 30 14:40:08 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 21:40:08 +0200 Subject: H960 rack available In-Reply-To: <4C02BA87.4010908@hachti.de> References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4C02BA87.4010908@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20100530194007.GA6161@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 09:20:39PM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi Ed, > > how much rust if any? feet? Overall condition? I have some rusty > racks. So could probably use a nice and clean one. Would be a pity > to send it to scrap. They seem to rust easily. I touched mine up with a grinder and some paint :) /P From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 30 15:07:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 16:07:31 -0400 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: <4C02B6FC.9070306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> <4C02B6FC.9070306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: > If you use a finger down as 0 and a finger up as 1, it's possible to count > to 1023 on your fingers..... Hey, 132 to you, too, buddy. -- Will From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun May 30 15:10:18 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 22:10:18 +0200 Subject: H960 rack available In-Reply-To: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4C02BA87.4010908@hachti.de> <20100530194007.GA6161@Update.UU.SE> References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4C02BA87.4010908@hachti.de> <20100530194007.GA6161@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: From: "Pontus Pihlgren" Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 9:40 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: ; <"Discussion:"@Update.UU.SE> Subject: Re: H960 rack available > On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 09:20:39PM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Hi Ed, >> >> how much rust if any? feet? Overall condition? I have some rusty >> racks. So could probably use a nice and clean one. Would be a pity >> to send it to scrap. > > They seem to rust easily. I touched mine up with a grinder and some paint > :) > > /P That is not my experience with H960 racks. More than 10 years ago, I picked up an H960 rack which was outside during August-November, well over 3 months during autumn season. And autumn in The Netherlands has a lot of rain days ... I still have that rack, and it does not have a spot of rust! Only the casters are not always rolling in the direction I'd like. Probably some sand got in the bearings while being outside between tall grass. - Henk. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 30 15:14:52 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 16:14:52 -0400 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: > Positional notation works much better, and for it, you really need a > zero, which Roman numerals never fully adopted. > > This is why most of the world quickly adopted Arabic numerals, which > themselves borrowed the Hindu invention of zero. Not only the West - > the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and other users of non-alphabetic > scripts have also adopted modern Western-style Arabic numerals. The Roman merchants and engineers had a fairly standard abacus thing, so math for them was not as bad as one might think. -- Will From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun May 30 15:26:05 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 22:26:05 +0200 Subject: H960 rack available In-Reply-To: <4C02BA87.4010908@hachti.de> References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4C02BA87.4010908@hachti.de> Message-ID: <94ce8a184bfed890e43558891754b218.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Philipp, This rack has minimal rust. Ir was in the container, and I did cleanup a bit here and there. Now I'm finally able to get to the back and see the tu-55 again. But the rack has been spoken for, so it wil not go to the scrapper. Regards, Ed > Hi Ed, > > how much rust if any? feet? Overall condition? I have some rusty racks. So > could probably use a nice > and clean one. Would be a pity to send it to scrap. > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > > > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 30 16:16:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 14:16:35 -0700 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: <4C02B6FC.9070306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at May 30, 10 08:05:32 pm, Message-ID: <4C027343.2777.160D409@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2010 at 20:24, Tony Duell wrote: > I have never managed to use ternary or symmetric ternary (place valeus > of -1, 0, 1) on my fingers, for all 3 states of each finger seem > easily possible. Nor have I ever managed to get the base -2 sequeence > (it starts 00000 00001 00110 00111 00100...) flowing nicely on my > fingers. When counting rests, I'll sometimes count modulo 5 on both hands. I suppose some sort of group code might also work. (I could never master the really strange "live long and prosper" combination). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 30 16:20:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 14:20:21 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <4C017604.3060609@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at May 29, 10 09:16:04 pm, Message-ID: <4C027425.2341.164460E@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2010 at 18:42, Tony Duell wrote: >> Actually, for reasons of cost, moist thermometers don't use mercury > anyway. The ones that did, did so for, I suspect, technical reasons. I > don';t beleive there was enoguh mercury used in thermomneters to be a > hazard, but when it was used, it was used because it was the best > material to use, And that's what bothers me about the ban. The only fever thermometers in my medicine cabinet are mercury- filled. They're reasonably accurate. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 30 16:25:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 14:25:49 -0700 Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK - counting in 12's In-Reply-To: <4C02B89C.9040204@mac.com> References: , <4C02B89C.9040204@mac.com> Message-ID: <4C02756D.13780.169472E@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2010 at 20:12, Roger Pugh wrote: > There was a system from the ancient world using the segments of the > fingers to count with the thumb as a marker. My parents used a counting-on-the-knuckles scheme for remembering the days in each month. I don't recall the details, however. And if you want to see a musical application of counting on finger segments, see "guidonian hand". Very old. --Chuck From ama at ugr.es Sun May 30 17:08:13 2010 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel Martin Alganza) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 00:08:13 +0200 Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK - counting in 12's In-Reply-To: <4C02756D.13780.169472E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C02B89C.9040204@mac.com> <4C02756D.13780.169472E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100530220813.GA23576@darwin.ugr.es> On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 02:25:49PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > My parents used a counting-on-the-knuckles scheme for remembering the > days in each month. I don't recall the details, however. I do that too. You start on the pointing finger knuckle (that's a ?pick?) January, 31 days. Next you go between the pointing finger and the middle finger knuckle (that's a ?valley?), February, 28 or 29 days. Next is the middle finger knuckle (up again), March, 31 days. When you reach the last (small finger) knuckle (up, July, 31 days) you start again at the beginning (up, August, 31 days) and keep going until December. :-) It's hard to explain not being an native English speaker, but I hope the description is good enough to understand the ?method?. Cheers, ?ngel From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 30 17:41:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 15:41:29 -0700 Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK - counting in 12's In-Reply-To: <20100530220813.GA23576@darwin.ugr.es> References: <4C02B89C.9040204@mac.com>, <4C02756D.13780.169472E@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100530220813.GA23576@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <4C028729.30207.1AE8FB1@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2010 at 0:08, Angel Martin Alganza wrote: > It's hard to explain not being an native English speaker, but I hope > the description is good enough to understand the "method". Thank you, that sounds about right. I can imagine that this scheme is employed frequently in many non-English languages. (My parents spoke Lithuanian, which uses its own names for the months, not the names of Roman emperors and gods). --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun May 30 18:26:14 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 16:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Can you explain the set-up, please. What is connected to what, and where > the PSU is connected to (the A500 mainboard, right)? > Here's a picture of the board (well *A* board): http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/dataflyer2000plus,5 Mine has the memory expansion conector installed. The A500 works fine with this card installed. I did more checking and it appears that there's a short between +5 and ground. I removed all the chips to eliminate them as a potential cause and it's still reading as shorted. The only components left on the board at this point are the resistors, a pair of electrolytic caps and a pair of what I think are tantalum caps. Thanks for the suggestions Tony. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 30 18:47:34 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:47:34 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> References: <9C22E094EF24432EBB4154E68B6BBB76@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4C02F916.5050401@gmail.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > There's decametre too (another now obsolete unit). Never > heard centameter so I've no idea if that exists. Called "hectameter", if I'm not mistaken. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun May 30 19:19:10 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 01:19:10 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C03007E.2080408@dunnington.plus.com> On 30/05/2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: >> Well I've pretty much used CFLs here for a few years now, they last >> longer (if correctly used), generate less heat, which is deffo an >> advantage for the anglepoise that I use for close work :) > > Oh so have I, I actually prefer them for most applciations. That is, in > all but 4 locations... > > 1) Over my lathe (the stroboscopic effect does seem to be noticeable) Maybe I've been lucky but the short striplight tube I have over mine doesn't seem too bad. Maybe the phosphor is unusual, though. > 2) In the darkroom (the CFLs have a long enouhg afterglow to fog film > after being turned off for quite some time) Agreed. I bought a few "daylight" incandescents (the ones with the blue coating) shortly before they became unobtanium. > 3) In the copying stand (the light spectrum from a CFL is useless for > colour photography) You can now get pretty good daylight ones, and in fact you can get lighting kits that use them because they produce much less heat for the same light output as umpteen hundred watts of incandescents. But ordinary domestic bulbs have a pretty awful spectral output, and different brands have different characteristics. The proper daylight ones are seriously more expensive than ordinary domestic ones. > 4) As ballast resistors (you don't seriously think a CFL will work there, > do oyu?) Not much chance ! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 30 19:27:47 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 01:27:47 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:18 PM Subject: Re: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Andrew Burton > wrote: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Liam Proven" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 2:55 AM >> Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK >> >> >>> >>> Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; >>> unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all >>> connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is >>> 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks >>> like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but >>> three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what >>> you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. >> >>> >>> It's about as sensible, practical and useful as Roman numerals. >> >> Actually, I think Roman Numerals are pretty cool. > > Oh, they're quite fun, and are still used for decorative counting purposes. > > The primary snag with them is that they not only do not facilitate > arithmetic, they actually hinder it, as a non-positional system with > embedded calculations - e.g. MMIX for 2009, where you have to mentally > take one from the final ten to yield nine. > You could always avoid that problem by using an aternative notation (e.g. MMVIIII)!! > Positional notation works much better, and for it, you really need a > zero, which Roman numerals never fully adopted. > > This is why most of the world quickly adopted Arabic numerals, which > themselves borrowed the Hindu invention of zero. Not only the West - > the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and other users of non-alphabetic > scripts have also adopted modern Western-style Arabic numerals. > >> Ok, I only understand the >> particular format usually used for dates (e.g. MMVII = 2007), but I am aware >> there are (atleast) two other formats for Roman Numerals (neither of which I >> have learnt to understand yet - as I haven't tried to). > > Oh really? Such as? Hmpf. Having re-read the entire page, I guess I was thinking of the full stops after each group of numbers (e.g. "M.M.X." instead of "MMX") and Medievil Roman Numerals. Though it is interesting that the final i can become a j, originally introduced to prevent forgery (eg. additional i's being added at a later date). > > I'm aware of using lower-case letters but this doesn't really change anything. > >> Without Roman Numerals, would we ever have had sexadecimal / hexadecimal?? > > I don't follow. Hex is a straighforward modification of Arabic > numerals for base16 instead of base10. (As is octal). There is no > influence in it from Roman numerals that I'm aware of. I was thinking that Roman Numerals was the first time (I knew of) numbers being represented by letters, and that would have influenced whoever thought up the sexadecimal system (I can't find any reference to them on wiki - I'm sure it used to be there). Perhaps I was wrong. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 30 19:33:46 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 01:33:46 +0100 Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><20100529124629.V72474@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00f701cb005a$6b4c4bd0$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:20 PM Subject: Re: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK > On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Sat, 29 May 2010, dwight elvey wrote: >>> The only problem is that decimal don't fit the physical world well. >>> Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. >>> 1/8 and 1/32 make more sense in the physical world. >>> Decimal is just what you learned in school. >> >> . . . and based on the very arbitrary basis of number of fingers. >> >> Q: then why not base 20? >> A: because the more dominant (agressive) cultures came from climates where >> feet were kept bundled up for warmth, and stank too much to expose them >> publicly > > :?D Like it! > > Mind you, I don't think I've met anyone with the flexibility and > control to individually raise and lower toes to count on... There is a woman that became famous on YouTube, by using only her *feet* to peel a banana: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu1PY8PIrYA I haven't watched the video yet, so perhaps she cheated somehow? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 30 20:03:55 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 18:03:55 -0700 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4C02A88B.29035.230F76C@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2010 at 1:27, Andrew Burton wrote: > I was thinking that Roman Numerals was the first time (I knew of) > numbers being represented by letters, and that would have influenced > whoever thought up the sexadecimal system (I can't find any reference > to them on wiki - I'm sure it used to be there). Perhaps I was wrong. You may be thinking of the way the ancient Greeks represented numbers. (there were at least two systems--one similar to the Roman and the other using letters for 1-9, 10-90, 100-900, with special modifiers for 1000-9000. After that the modifier for a myriad (10,000, quite literally) was used with each letter.) Archimedes devised a system where extremely large numbers (10**8, 10**16, etc.) could be represented. I don't know how the Romans translated his works, particularly his calculation of the number of grains of sand that would fit into the universe was around 10**64. Smart people, those Greeks. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 30 20:08:23 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 21:08:23 -0400 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > There's a couple of folks that have hooked 1541 drives to their ZX-81 > computers. ?Anything that will talk the IEC serial protocol can use the > drives. The instructions and associated software to hang a 1541 off of a Syntertek SYM-1 (a functional, but not component-for-component, clone of the KIM-1) are floating around as well, though I haven't tried it. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 30 19:58:42 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:58:42 -0500 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <201005310110.o4V1AZE7098979@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:14 PM 5/30/2010, William Donzelli wrote: >The Roman merchants and engineers had a fairly standard abacus thing, >so math for them was not as bad as one might think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_abacus Similar to the Japanese soroban, it says... and "undeniable proof that Romans were using a device that exhibited a decimal, place value system, and the inferred knowledge of a zero value as represented by a column with no beads in a counted position. Furthermore, the bi-quinary nature of the integer portion allowed for direct transcription from and to the written Roman numerals. No matter what the true usage was, what cannot be denied is that these instruments provide very strong arguments in favour of far greater facility with practical mathematics known and practised by the Romans." - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 30 20:15:43 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 21:15:43 -0400 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > The story goes that Tramiel was unhappy with the price and availability of > the IEEE-488 cables on the PET line, and told the VIC designers to "get off > that bus!". ?They looked at the VIA 6522 and designed a serial protocol > around the use of the shift register. ?Late in the game, software developers > became aware of the 6522 Shift Register "bug", and so had to retreat back to > bit banging the bus. Were there any versions of the 6522 (65C22?) that had the shift register bug fixed? Does the 6526 preserve the bug? With all the Speed DOS products that were out there, I can't imagine it would be worth trying to (re)create the originally envisioned hardware-implemented bit-serial interface, but once I heard the story about the shift register bug, I'd always wondered what it would have been like to have used a drive that wasn't so glacially slow. > So, for that bug, the serial speed went from CLK/32 to > transfer a byte down to CLK/320 or so. I hadn't realized it was that much slower. Wow. My first C-64 (S/N P00002007, a development machine sent from Commodore to my first employer) came with a 1540 and some extra operational instructions - I think it was to disable VIC-II DMA, like the KERNEL already does during a tape load. -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Sun May 30 20:43:37 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:43:37 -0500 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4C031449.9090609@jbrain.com> On 5/30/2010 8:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Were there any versions of the 6522 (65C22?) that had the shift > register bug fixed? Does the 6526 preserve the bug? With all the > The 6526 fixed the bug, though it has a bug (bugs) of its own. Jim Butterfield noted in a post long ago that the hardware guys knew about the 6522 shift register bug long before the VIC-20 was in development, but due to "right hand, left hand" stuff, that information never got communicated. The story continues that when the C64 was in development, the switch to the 6526 would allow a return to the shift register usage. The designers added the requisite lines to the PCB design, but during the cost reductions/final design work done in Japan, the extra lines were removed. When the PCBs came back from the initial run, the PCB designer in the US was apalled to find his extra lines had been removed. >> So, for that bug, the serial speed went from CLK/32 to >> transfer a byte down to CLK/320 or so. >> > I hadn't realized it was that much slower. Wow. > Well, I'm sure anal pedantic folks might quibble over the values, but here was my calculations: 6522/6526 shift register operates at CLK/4 top speed. So, 8 bits take ~ CLK/32 On the VIC-20, the CLK is 20uS per half cycle. That CLK/40 per bit, or CLK/320 for the byte. Both calculations ignore TURN and other protocol nuances. The C64, due to the DMA needs, reduced the 1541-C64 speed to CLK/60 per half clock cycle. So, a byte takes CLK/960, or ~ 1000 bytes/sec. In reality, my numbers are off, since most references acknowledge a top speed of 300 bytes/sec for the 1541, though some of that is probably due to sector latency and the protocol overhead. > My first C-64 (S/N P00002007, a development machine sent from > Commodore to my first employer) came with a 1540 and some extra > operational instructions - I think it was to disable VIC-II DMA, like > the KERNEL already does during a tape load. > Yes, disabling the VIC-20 will allow VIC-20 speeds. Some fastloaders did this to allow ignoring the DMA issues. Jim From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 30 21:30:32 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 19:30:32 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4C031F48.1090608@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Were there any versions of the 6522 (65C22?) that had the shift > register bug fixed? > Yes. Some, but not all, of the CMOS variants fixed the issue. You can't count on a part marked 65C22 as having the fix; you have to check the datasheet for the specific manufacturer and part number. Note that the issue isn't really a bug in the strict sense. According to Synertek application note AN5, the problem occurs when the rising edge of CB1 occurs less than 100 nanoseconds before the falling edge of Phi2. If you look at the NMOS 6522 datasheet (eg, Rockwell R6522), the AC specifications give a parameter tSR3, "External Shift Clock (CB1) Setup Time Relative to Phi2 Trailing Edge" with a minimum of 100 ns. This is illustrated in Figure 31g "Timing for Shift in with Internal or External Shift Clocking". Thus the problem only occurs when the specifications for the part are violated. Another "bug" people claim that the 6522 had was that registers could be corrupted if the register select inputs changed while Phi2 was active, even if the chip was not selected. This caused problems with using the 6522 in 68000 systems. Changing the register select lines with Phi2 active violates the tACR, tCAR, tACW and tCAW specs of the part, so it's not a true bug. Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun May 30 21:45:51 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 22:45:51 -0400 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: <4C031F48.1090608@brouhaha.com> References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> <4C031F48.1090608@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> Were there any versions of the 6522 (65C22?) that had the shift >> register bug fixed? >> > Yes. ?Some, but not all, of the CMOS variants fixed the issue. ?You can't > count on a part marked 65C22 as having the fix; you have to check the > datasheet for the specific manufacturer and part number. Good to know (but not unsurprising). > Note that the issue isn't really a bug in the strict sense. ?According to > Synertek application note AN5, the problem occurs when the rising edge of > CB1 occurs less than 100 nanoseconds before the falling edge of Phi2... OK. I can accept is isn't strictly a bug, but what is it about the VIC-20 design that violates the 6522 specs? Did they cost-reduce too many corners? Is there a similar issue with the PET design? I thought there was also a problem (verifiable with PETs) where certain aspects of the chip act funny if you are using the shift register - the symptoms I remember is that if you are using CB2 "music" (free-running shift register), the tape drive doesn't work. You have to "disable the sound" before you can save your work (as we used to view it when we were hacking PETs). Is this the same/a related bug or something else? > Another "bug" people claim... caused problems with using the 6522 in > 68000 systems. Did Apple do something tricky with the original Mac design? http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2365/2391525329_af71ed4f8d.jpg (one of the few times I've seen a 6522 hung off of a 68K - for an embedded product I worked on in the 1980s, we had Z8350 SIO chips and 6821 PIO chips, but not 6522s). -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 30 22:50:25 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 21:50:25 -0600 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Burton wrote: > I was thinking that Roman Numerals was the first time (I knew of) numbers > being represented by letters, and that would have influenced whoever thought > up the sexadecimal system (I can't find any reference to them on wiki - I'm > sure it used to be there). Perhaps I was wrong. I think the Greeks used the letters of the alphabet as well for numbers. But who used numbers over a 100 when you think about it. > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 30 22:56:08 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 21:56:08 -0600 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C02A88B.29035.230F76C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C02A88B.29035.230F76C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C033358.2090609@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know how the Romans translated his works, particularly his > calculation of the number of grains of sand that would fit into the > universe was around 10**64. > > Smart people, those Greeks. http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/hmendel/Ancient Mathematics/Archimedes/SandReckoner/Ch.1/Ch1.html > --Chuck > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 30 23:39:00 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 00:39:00 -0400 Subject: 6809 transistor count? Message-ID: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> Can anyone tell me the approximate transistor count of the 6809? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 31 00:00:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 22:00:02 -0700 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C02DFE2.4696.30921AD@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2010 at 0:39, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Can anyone tell me the approximate transistor count of the 6809? Another member, nine years ago said 9K--so that's what, a kilotransistor per year? http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-May/170288.html Cheers, Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon May 31 01:43:56 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 07:43:56 +0100 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Perhaps ask this guy he was there, And he has some interesting stuff on his site. http://www.ciphersbyritter.com/AUTHOR.HTM Dave Caroline On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 5:39 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?Can anyone tell me the approximate transistor count of the 6809? > > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 31 02:25:24 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 00:25:24 -0700 Subject: Commodore Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <201005290408.o4T488rh014528@floodgap.com> <4C00982C.8070800@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C00D7D6.9070502@brouhaha.com> <4C00E2BE.6070509@brouhaha.com> <4C014ED7.30504@jbrain.com> <4C031F48.1090608@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C036464.5020305@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > OK. I can accept is isn't strictly a bug, but what is it about the > VIC-20 design that violates the 6522 specs? Did they cost-reduce too > many corners? Is there a similar issue with the PET design? > The issue with using the shift register for the Commodore serial bus is that if you feed the clock directly into CB1, it can violate the timing specs. If you add an external synchronizer, that would fix it. However, instead they went the cost-reduction path of bit-banging it. >> Another "bug" people claim... caused problems with using the 6522 in >> 68000 systems. >> > Did Apple do something tricky with the original Mac design? > I seem to recall that they did, but it's been so long since I looked at the schematics and the reverse-engineered PAL equations that I don't recall. Eric From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 31 08:02:20 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 14:02:20 +0100 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: <4C02B6FC.9070306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> <4C02B6FC.9070306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> There is a language in the Amazon Basin, I believe Pirah?, (and this is >> not like the "1,2,many" urban legend--there are write-ups in linguistic >> journals) which works in base 19. ?Each finger joint, the back of the >> hand, the wrist, the forearm, the upper arm, and the shoulder are the >> counting points. > > Dunno if this has already been mentioned but.... > > If you use a finger down as 0 and a finger up as 1, it's possible to count > to 1023 on your fingers..... > > Phill. > > -- > Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! > > "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. That's why I was plugging the Fred Pohl essays. The 1st essay teaches you to count in binary on your fingers. IT also covers basic arithmetic this way, which I confess I do not use.) It is remarkable, it works well and I still occasionally use it, mainly for counting things, such as keeping score on a fencing match. I can tally up to 31 on each hand. (And believe me, however many times people have accused you of being a weird nerd, it doesn't compare to the expression on their face when they *look* at you after you tell them you were counting in binary on your fingers, and keeping separate tallies on each hand. Sheesh.) The 2nd article suggests an approach for naming and speaking such large numbers. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 31 08:12:48 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 14:12:48 +0100 Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <00f701cb005a$6b4c4bd0$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <20100529124629.V72474@shell.lmi.net> <00f701cb005a$6b4c4bd0$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 1:33 AM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Liam Proven" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK > > >> On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Sat, 29 May 2010, dwight elvey wrote: >>>> The only problem is that decimal don't fit the physical world well. >>>> Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. >>>> 1/8 and 1/32 make more sense in the physical world. >>>> Decimal is just what you learned in school. >>> >>> . . . and based on the very arbitrary basis of number of fingers. >>> >>> Q: then why not base 20? >>> A: because the more dominant (agressive) cultures came from climates > where >>> feet were kept bundled up for warmth, and stank too much to expose them >>> publicly >> >> :?D Like it! >> >> Mind you, I don't think I've met anyone with the flexibility and >> control to individually raise and lower toes to count on... > > There is a woman that became famous on YouTube, by using only her *feet* to > peel a banana: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu1PY8PIrYA > > > I haven't watched the video yet, so perhaps she cheated somehow? > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk That is deeply bizarre. (And about as sexy as a car accident.) But she's not actually very good, and she grunts and moans a lot with the effort. I believe I could do better myself! Read some of the stories of armless people for true podial dexterity. Carl Unthan was one of the most famous, who not only played violin and gave concerts, but he often would deliberately cut part way through a string so that it snapped in mid-performance, so that he could demonstrate how easily he could re-string it. http://www.phreeque.com/carl_unthan.html Unthan gave lectures to limbless soldiers returning from WW1, demonstrating to them how able an armless man could be. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 31 08:22:26 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 14:22:26 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 1:27 AM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Liam Proven" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 5:18 PM > Subject: Re: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > > >> On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Andrew Burton >> wrote: >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Liam Proven" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 2:55 AM >>> Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Metric makes sense. Everything's in tens and hundreds and thousands; >>>> unit conversion is trivial. The different measurements are all >>>> connected - 1 litre = a 10 x 10 x 10 cm cube, and that much water is >>>> 1kg. Freeze it, that's 0?C; boil it, that's 100?. It all interlocks >>>> like clockwork, no fooling around with 24 of this makes 1 of those but >>>> three-fourteenths of one of them, and a unit of weight depends on what >>>> you're weighing and suchlike nonsense. >>> >>>> >>>> It's about as sensible, practical and useful as Roman numerals. >>> >>> Actually, I think Roman Numerals are pretty cool. >> >> Oh, they're quite fun, and are still used for decorative counting > purposes. >> >> The primary snag with them is that they not only do not facilitate >> arithmetic, they actually hinder it, as a non-positional system with >> embedded calculations - e.g. MMIX for 2009, where you have to mentally >> take one from the final ten to yield nine. >> > > You could always avoid that problem by using an aternative notation (e.g. > MMVIIII)!! > > >> Positional notation works much better, and for it, you really need a >> zero, which Roman numerals never fully adopted. >> >> This is why most of the world quickly adopted Arabic numerals, which >> themselves borrowed the Hindu invention of zero. Not only the West - >> the Chinese, Japanese, Koreans and other users of non-alphabetic >> scripts have also adopted modern Western-style Arabic numerals. >> >>> Ok, I only understand the >>> particular format usually used for dates (e.g. MMVII = 2007), but I am > aware >>> there are (atleast) two other formats for Roman Numerals (neither of > which I >>> have learnt to understand yet - as I haven't tried to). >> >> Oh really? Such as? > > Hmpf. Having re-read the entire page, I guess I was thinking of the full > stops after each group of numbers (e.g. "M.M.X." instead of "MMX") and > Medievil Roman Numerals. > Though it is interesting that the final i can become a j, originally > introduced to prevent forgery (eg. additional i's being added at a later > date). > > >> >> I'm aware of using lower-case letters but this doesn't really change > anything. >> >>> Without Roman Numerals, would we ever have had sexadecimal / > hexadecimal?? >> >> I don't follow. Hex is a straighforward modification of Arabic >> numerals for base16 instead of base10. (As is octal). There is no >> influence in it from Roman numerals that I'm aware of. > > I was thinking that Roman Numerals was the first time (I knew of) numbers > being represented by letters, and that would have influenced whoever thought > up the sexadecimal system (I can't find any reference to them on wiki - I'm > sure it used to be there). Perhaps I was wrong. Hardly! The Romans nicked it off the Etruscans. The Romans are quite recent, you know. Only a couple of thousand years ago. Human societies of people identical to us have been around for about 40,000 years. The oldest buildings known so far are some 12,000 years ago - about 5 times longer before ancient Rome than Rome was before us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe We have written records from Pharoaonic Egypt from circa 7000-8000 years ago, which is just one of the more fun bits of evidence that the young-Earth Creationists are a bunch of deranged loonies. The Phaistos Disk shows that there was *print* long before ancient Rome. One or two hundred thousand years before the Cro-Magnon, the ancestors of the Europeans and most of the us, the Neanderthals had societies right across the world, hunting mammoths and so on. They left little trace other than fossils, so we know very little about them, but they had a human society that spread across Eurasia about a hundred times longer ago than ancient Rome. Roman numerals are no ancestral to anything much. They're a recent peculiarity! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 31 09:47:46 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 08:47:46 -0600 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Can anyone tell me the approximate transistor count of the 6809? > > -Dave > Well for a ballpark figure I would double the 6800 transistor count. 2x microcode rom & 2x registers. http://www.techheap.com/processors/6809/the_6809.pdf I get about 40K transistors as ball park figure. Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 31 10:37:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 08:37:17 -0700 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com>, <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C03753D.16497.B7DE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2010 at 8:47, Ben wrote: > I get about 40K transistors as ball park figure. In fact, the 6809 has only about 5% more transistors than the Z80 according to data from Microprocessor Report. The 8086 has fewer than 30K. Of course, a lot of the distinction depends on what's being called a "transistor". --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 31 12:54:33 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 18:54:33 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration - Progress! Message-ID: <023a01cb00ea$55314270$ff93c750$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Thanks to the people on this list and one other (thanks Matt!) I have got my RD53 working reliably now. I currently have it installed in a MicroVAX 2000 with 6MB of memory running MicroVMS 4.6 and DECnet. I had to remove the old bumper which had become sticky. But to make the disk work I had to replace the bumper, so I used some folded over post-it notes taped to the top of the head assembly. This seems to work for now, but I fear a better solution is needed. I also get a grinding noise which becomes apparent after the disk has warmed up. I think this comes from the graphite pad underneath. I plan to loosen the mounting bolts a little more to see if that gets rid of the noise, but I am wondering if there is any other way to get rid of it. Why is the graphite pad needed? What would happen if I removed it? Thanks Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 31 13:01:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 19:01:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK - counting in 12's In-Reply-To: <4C02756D.13780.169472E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 30, 10 02:25:49 pm Message-ID: > > There was a system from the ancient world using the segments of the > > fingers to count with the thumb as a marker. > > My parents used a counting-on-the-knuckles scheme for remembering the > days in each month. I don't recall the details, however. As I've mentioned before, I use the method I learnt from one of the 'Art of Electronics' books (possibly the lab manual). Namely to write hte month as a 4-bit binary number (January = 0001 ... December == 1100) and then XOR the 8's bit and the 1's bit. If the result of that XOR is 1, then it's a 31 day month, otherwise it isn't [30 days hath septemnber And al the rest I can't remember] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 31 13:06:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 19:06:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at May 30, 10 04:26:14 pm Message-ID: > The A500 works fine with this card installed. I did more checking and it > appears that there's a short between +5 and ground. I removed all the Hmmm.. So the 5V line i nthe computer must still be present. And if there's a short on the expanison board, then that 5V must be being droipped somewhere. An this coupld mean a track has burnt out somewhere (possibly on an internal layer of the expanison board. After finding the short, you may have some jumpering to do :-) > chips to eliminate them as a potential cause and it's still reading as > shorted. The only components left on the board at this point are the > resistors, a pair of electrolytic caps and a pair of what I think are > tantalum caps. I am suprisedthere aren't some small ceramic decoupling capacitors too. The next thing I would do is desolder those electrolytics and tants and see if the short goes away. It's only 8 connections total :-) > > Thanks for the suggestions Tony. No problem. That's what the list's for, isn't it... [Expecting the flames tht I am being egotistical by posting help here...] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 31 13:42:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 19:42:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C03007E.2080408@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 31, 10 01:19:10 am Message-ID: > > On 30/05/2010 20:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> Well I've pretty much used CFLs here for a few years now, they last > >> longer (if correctly used), generate less heat, which is deffo an > >> advantage for the anglepoise that I use for close work :) > > > > Oh so have I, I actually prefer them for most applciations. That is, in > > all but 4 locations... > > > > 1) Over my lathe (the stroboscopic effect does seem to be noticeable) > > Maybe I've been lucky but the short striplight tube I have over mine > doesn't seem too bad. Maybe the phosphor is unusual, though. That, actually, is the only place I wouldn't worry too much about using CFLs. The stobe effect isn't that major [1] and since I'm the only person in the workshop, I can hear the motor of the machine I am using running. It's more of a problem in a workshop with many people working where you may hear a motor and think it's somebody else's machine. [1] As an aside, some months back I needed a stroboscope to check the performance of a couple of rewound motors (in an HP9125A plotter). I made a simple unit using a 55 timer, a divider chain and 4 white LEDs. It worked well. For a laugh (!), I made a second model using a crystal osciallator an divider chain which would produce 100 or 120 flashes per second, thus simulating a US or European mains lamp. I dug a spare floppy drive out of my junk box, got it spinning and noticed the strobe divisions on the spindle pulley were not that clear under the (strip light type of flourescent lamp, choke ballast) light over my bench. But wit hthe LED strobe they were very clear. So perhaps the srobe effect from a flourescent lamp is not that serious. > > > 2) In the darkroom (the CFLs have a long enouhg afterglow to fog film > > after being turned off for quite some time) > > Agreed. I bought a few "daylight" incandescents (the ones with the blue > coating) shortly before they became unobtanium. I thought I'd seen those listed fairly recently.. > > > 3) In the copying stand (the light spectrum from a CFL is useless for > > colour photography) > > You can now get pretty good daylight ones, and in fact you can get > lighting kits that use them because they produce much less heat for the > same light output as umpteen hundred watts of incandescents. But > ordinary domestic bulbs have a pretty awful spectral output, and > different brands have different characteristics. The proper daylight > ones are seriously more expensive than ordinary domestic ones. Fliament lamps tend to be a fairly close approximation to a black body radiator, and thus it's not too hard to filter the output to give something approaching daylight. Some flourescents have a horrible spectrum with all sorts of gaps in it that is almost impossible to filter to anything close to daylight. Quite apart from the fact that CFLs do not work with a series/parallel switch :-) > > > 4) As ballast resistors (you don't seriously think a CFL will work there, > > do oyu?) > > Not much chance ! So quite how I repair SMPSUs when I can no longer get filament lamps is another problem... Does anyone know the exact terms of the ban? I understand that the ban only covers domestic ligthing, and it;s legal to sell filament lamps for other applications, Is it legal for me to import them myself for my own use (particularly id that use is not 'domestic lighting')? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 31 13:53:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 19:53:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53 Restoration - Progress! In-Reply-To: <023a01cb00ea$55314270$ff93c750$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 31, 10 06:54:33 pm Message-ID: > apparent after the disk has warmed up. I think this comes from the graphite > pad underneath. I plan to loosen the mounting bolts a little more to see if > that gets rid of the noise, but I am wondering if there is any other way to > get rid of it. Why is the graphite pad needed? What would happen if I > removed it? The graphite pad is an earthing contact for the spindle/disks. The idea is that if the spindle is insulated from the chasis, static build-up could cause data errors (or even damage to the read amplifier). I've seen plenty of dissk runnign without the earthing contact, so it is probably not essential to have it. Often if you bend the mountign spring so a different bit of the pad touches the spindle, the noise will go away. Another trick is to stick something (foam tape is good) on the spring to deaden the sound. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 31 14:05:07 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 12:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> The A500 works fine with this card installed. I did more checking and it >> appears that there's a short between +5 and ground. I removed all the > > Hmmm.. So the 5V line i nthe computer must still be present. And if > there's a short on the expanison board, then that 5V must be being > droipped somewhere. An this coupld mean a track has burnt out somewhere > (possibly on an internal layer of the expanison board. > I think that since I can see no visible signs of damage to the board and providing that one of the caps isn't shorted, there is a dead track inside the board. If that's the case it falls squarely into the category of "BER". > I am suprisedthere aren't some small ceramic decoupling capacitors too. > Not that I can see. Then again, what I think is tantalum could be a non-disc shaped ceramic. They're mustard yellow about 1/8" long with axial leads. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 31 13:59:49 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 19:59:49 +0100 Subject: RD53 Restoration - Progress! In-Reply-To: <023a01cb00ea$55314270$ff93c750$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <023a01cb00ea$55314270$ff93c750$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C040725.8040106@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/05/2010 18:54, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Thanks to the people on this list and one other (thanks Matt!) I have got my > RD53 working reliably now. I currently have it installed in a MicroVAX 2000 > with 6MB of memory running MicroVMS 4.6 and DECnet. > > I had to remove the old bumper which had become sticky. But to make the disk > work I had to replace the bumper, so I used some folded over post-it notes > taped to the top of the head assembly. This seems to work for now, but I > fear a better solution is needed. You could try a thin bump-on rubber foot, as used on some small electrical equipment. > I also get a grinding noise which becomes > apparent after the disk has warmed up. I think this comes from the graphite > pad underneath. I plan to loosen the mounting bolts a little more to see if > that gets rid of the noise, but I am wondering if there is any other way to > get rid of it. Why is the graphite pad needed? What would happen if I > removed it? It's an antistatic measure for the spindle. Try bending it a little. It's unlikely to do any harm running with it bent right our of the way for a while, so you can find out if that's what's making the noise. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 31 14:19:47 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 12:19:47 -0700 Subject: RD53 Restoration - Progress! In-Reply-To: <023a01cb00ea$55314270$ff93c750$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <023a01cb00ea$55314270$ff93c750$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C040BD3.6030404@bitsavers.org> On 5/31/10 10:54 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Why is the graphite pad needed? What would happen if I > removed it? > static charge builds up, and zaps the read preamps. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 31 14:06:38 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 20:06:38 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0408BE.4060104@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/05/2010 19:42, Tony Duell wrote: >> Agreed. I bought a few "daylight" incandescents (the ones with the blue >> coating) shortly before they became unobtanium. > > I thought I'd seen those listed fairly recently.. My sources have dried up :-( >>> 3) In the copying stand (the light spectrum from a CFL is useless for >>> colour photography) >> You can now get pretty good daylight ones, and in fact you can get >> lighting kits that use them because they produce much less heat for the >> same light output as umpteen hundred watts of incandescents. But >> ordinary domestic bulbs have a pretty awful spectral output, and >> different brands have different characteristics. The proper daylight >> ones are seriously more expensive than ordinary domestic ones. > > Fliament lamps tend to be a fairly close approximation to a black body > radiator, and thus it's not too hard to filter the output to give > something approaching daylight. Yes -- just in case you were wondering, when I referred to "ordinary domestic bulbs" above, I meant ordinary domestic energy-saving ones. Some flourescents have a horrible > spectrum with all sorts of gaps in it that is almost impossible to filter > to anything close to daylight. Yes, and to add insult to injury you can't even tell by eye which of the two most common types you're looking at (one needs a green filter and one a magenta one, roughly, but even those rarely give proper colours). > Does anyone know the exact terms of the ban? I understand that the ban > only covers domestic ligthing, and it;s legal to sell filament lamps for > other applications, Is it legal for me to import them myself for my own > use (particularly id that use is not 'domestic lighting')? I don't know about importing, or even the exact terms of the ban, but the only exemptions I recall seeing are for medical lamps. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From arcarlini at iee.org Mon May 31 14:36:23 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 20:36:23 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <66FBE3BFB3524F6495F1F6C96266F360@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > So quite how I repair SMPSUs when I can no longer get > filament lamps is > another problem... You'll use the next most convenient dummy load? > Does anyone know the exact terms of the ban? 100W and 75W filament bulbs can no longer be sold for domestic applications. (Actually, I think technically retailers can no longer restock ... they can probably keep selling old stock). I've never seen 75W bulbs (I'm sure they exist, I've just never seen anything between 60W and 100W in the local sheds). All non-clear (frosted or pearl) bulbs are now no-no. I think 60W go the same way in 2011 and in 2012 (or 2013) the rest follow. Specialist bulbs are not included (so the ones in cooker hoods and ovens and so on will still be around). A bunch of other exceptions exist too so you should be able to pick up "something" that meets your needs, it just might cost more than a 40p 60W bulb. I think technically any class A bulb can be sold beyond these dates, it's just impossible (or not economically viable) to produce a filament bulb that meets the requirements. I've been told that only domestic use is covered, so you should still be able to buy a 100W or 150W filament bulb for your "commercial premises". There is an electrical wholesaler just down the road from where I work so I may pop in one day (when my stock of 100W bulbs dwindles). Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 31 15:24:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 13:24:59 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C0408BE.4060104@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4C0408BE.4060104@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4C03B8AB.4845.112E308@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2010 at 20:06, Pete Turnbull wrote: > My sources have dried up :-( Just as a sanity check, does anyone have the figures of the portion of domestic (non-industrial/non-governmental) power consumption is due to incandescent lamps? 75W 120V lamps abound here--they're one of the more common sizes. I believe that they also exist in 250V Edison and mogul-based varieties here also. --Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Mon May 31 15:40:53 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 22:40:53 +0200 Subject: H960 rack available In-Reply-To: <94ce8a184bfed890e43558891754b218.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4C02BA87.4010908@hachti.de> <94ce8a184bfed890e43558891754b218.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C041ED5.7030609@hachti.de> > But the rack has been spoken for, so it wil not go to the scrapper. So I don't have to take the trip to save it :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From pinball at telus.net Fri May 28 15:40:20 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 13:40:20 -0700 Subject: LCD TVs for classic computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C002A34.2010402@telus.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > I'm thinking of heading over to frys this weekend to pick up an LCD TV > for use with a few classic computers and maybe classic gaming > consoles. I'd like something that will have good image quality for > use with things like Amigas and c64s. I'd like to avoid things like > submarining mouse pointers, ghosting around letters (ringing?) and > aspect ratio problems. > > A VGA port would be nice also. Bonus for being able to use the NTSC > frequencies when the signal is coming from the VGA port so I can > attach the amiga right to that. Obviously, I'd want a composite and > svga input also. Even coax would be useful in case I pick up a 2600 > or colecovision. > > Can anyone suggest a make and model that has all of this? > > brian > > I've found the Acer 19" V193B is a good monitor - it is 1200/1600 so the aspect ratio is the same as monitors/TVs. VGA input. We also are using a small PCB (Chinese I'm sure) that converts CGA/EGA/etc to VGA successfully. John :-#)# From enricolazzerini at interfree.it Fri May 28 15:43:00 2010 From: enricolazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Fri, 28 May 2010 22:43:00 +0200 Subject: Bigboard's Daughters Message-ID: Hi at all, in the newsgroup comp.os.cpm, more than 10 years ago, there has been a little discussion about the varying of SBC Ferguson BigBoard 1. Below i indicate where to find all topics availabe also at this address: http://elazzerini.interfree.it/FERGUSON BIGBOARD's Daughters.doc The folks were: Alastair S. Preston, bill_h, David Tweed, Don Maslin, Holger Petersen, Max, O. Alan Jones, Paul Lenz, and Scott Marti. I'm interested to know better those SBC varying: schematics, layout, pictures, EPROM listing, experiences, and so on to try to assemble those info in my website: http://elazzerini.interfree.it even with link to other materials across internet. Here you can find the entire discussion in word format in my website. Those SBC were: - JLS Computers (aka Vidtek). produced in Toronto similar to SBC BB1 supported through the Micro/Access online BBS system; - California something or other name: Bill Sigmund and another fellow who got Ferguson to 'fix' most of the shortcomings of the original BB and the Xerox 820 from the SBC BB1; I'm interested also to get contact with who have or had BBII came with VARBIOS and ZCPR3... Twente Digitaal in the Netherlands. Some info seems to be on a magazine called Computing Now!, the Canadian computing magazine. Is anybody who could help to find some issues (already scan on internet)?? At this moment I prefer to leave out from my searches the Kaypro and the Xerox 820 already WELL documented on Internet. Bigboard motherboard 1 O. Alan Jones 8 Feb 1998 2 David Tweed 9 Feb 1998 3 timolmst 9 Feb 1998 4 Don Maslin 9 Feb 1998 5 Alastair S. Preston 9 Feb 1998 6 bill_h 9 Feb 1998 7 Paul Lenz 11 Feb 1998 8 bill_h 12 Feb 1998 9 Max 13 Feb 1998 10 bill_h 13 Feb 1998 11 Don Maslin 13 Feb 1998 12 Paul Lenz 14 Feb 1998 13 Alastair S. Preston 12 Feb 1998 14 Max 13 Feb 1998 15 Max 13 Feb 1998 16 Holger Petersen 10 Feb 1998 Thanks for any kind of support. Regards Enrico - Pisa - Italy From elazzerini at interfree.it Sat May 29 01:22:33 2010 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 08:22:33 +0200 Subject: Bigboard's Daughters Message-ID: <580BD2050E0143CFA51DE3AEE7DE5DBC@enrico> Hi at all, in the newsgroup comp.os.cpm, more than 10 years ago, there has been a little discussion about the varying of SBC Ferguson BigBoard 1. Below i indicate where to find all topics availabe also at this address: http://elazzerini.interfree.it/FERGUSON BIGBOARD's Daughters.doc The folks were: Alastair S. Preston, bill_h, David Tweed, Don Maslin, Holger Petersen, Max, O. Alan Jones, Paul Lenz, and Scott Marti. I'm interested to know better those SBC varying: schematics, layout, pictures, EPROM listing, experiences, and so on to try to assemble those info in my website: http://elazzerini.interfree.it even with link to other materials across internet. Here you can find the entire discussion in word format in my website. Those SBC were: - JLS Computers (aka Vidtek). produced in Toronto similar to SBC BB1 supported through the Micro/Access online BBS system; - California something or other name: Bill Sigmund and another fellow who got Ferguson to 'fix' most of the shortcomings of the original BB and the Xerox 820 from the SBC BB1; I'm interested also to get contact with who have or had BBII came with VARBIOS and ZCPR3... Twente Digitaal in the Netherlands. Some info seems to be on a magazine called Computing Now!, the Canadian computing magazine. Is anybody who could help to find some issues (already scan on internet)?? At this moment I prefer to leave out from my searches the Kaypro and the Xerox 820 already WELL documented on Internet. Bigboard motherboard 1 O. Alan Jones 8 Feb 1998 2 David Tweed 9 Feb 1998 3 timolmst 9 Feb 1998 4 Don Maslin 9 Feb 1998 5 Alastair S. Preston 9 Feb 1998 6 bill_h 9 Feb 1998 7 Paul Lenz 11 Feb 1998 8 bill_h 12 Feb 1998 9 Max 13 Feb 1998 10 bill_h 13 Feb 1998 11 Don Maslin 13 Feb 1998 12 Paul Lenz 14 Feb 1998 13 Alastair S. Preston 12 Feb 1998 14 Max 13 Feb 1998 15 Max 13 Feb 1998 16 Holger Petersen 10 Feb 1998 Thanks for any kind of support. Regards Enrico - Pisa - Italy From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sat May 29 09:28:39 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 15:28:39 +0100 Subject: TNMOC restorations (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK?) In-Reply-To: References: from "IanKing" at May 27, 10 01:11:55 pm Message-ID: <5B1B71F8494D40E2A3AB17D0755D5E0E@xp32vm> >>>>(tony) > > Have you read the report in Computer Resurextion? (This is the _only_ > > indformation I have seen on this project). There were a couple of > > things > > that really upset me... > >=20 > > I had previously heard this story directly from the gentlemen involved, pre= > tty much verbatim. What do you find upsetting? =20 > I don't have the appropriate copy of Computer Resurection to hand, but from what I recall it said something like (this is a paraphrase, but I hope I've kept the meaning) 'After basic electircal safety tests we applied power and the machine appeared to start up correctly' 'However one part proved unreliable, we replaced all the PCBs, but it was still unreliavly. In the end we discovered the power supply was faulty, so we replaced that' ... etc <<<< The article is online at http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res48.htm#e It is worth rereading to correct your memories It shows that a great deal of care was taken in the process. There is, in any case, an important difference between attempting to restart equipment that had apparently been operational only a few months earlier before it was moved - in which case normal field-service procedures seem perfectly adequate* - and something that had been stored for years which might need treating as requiring the sort of investigation and testing that would be associated with rebuilding. * It is the experience, and thus training, of field-service organisations that a strip-down and rebuild procedure is more likely to introduce faults than to locate them with any reasonably modern equipment (and, in this context, PDP11/84s can be considered "reasonably modern"); This all changes, of course, if power-off time has been sufficient for power-supply faults to become likely. Andy From chrise at pobox.com Sat May 29 13:33:03 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 13:33:03 -0500 Subject: Authenticity opinions Message-ID: <20100529183303.GE14469@n0jcf.net> I have brought my SWTPC 6800 system back to life that I built as a kid in 1976. It is pretty heavily loaded with RAM cards, floppy controller, etc. and the 8V power supply rail was never really able to hold its own. It sits at about 6.5V now... driving many 5V regulators on the various cards. No where near enough margin going into those. So, I am contemplating the following, 1) rebuild entire power supply using three switchers, 7.5v unit nudged up to 8V and two 12V units to supply +/-12 on the backplane. All of these will fit inside the original cabinet in place of the linear supply's transformer, giant electrolytic cap, bridge rectifier, etc. I'd mount these switchers to an aluminum plate that would fit into the chassis and use existing mounting holes thereby not drilling any new holes in the chassis. This would be the least "period" solution but allow all of the original cards to run in the machine with power to spare. 2) add a new transformer to the existing supply just for the 8V rail. This will also fit but requires moving the existing transformer, cap, DC distribution board-- all efforts that require drilling new holes in the chassis. This would be a more authentic solution since I wouldn't be introducing power supply designs that didn't exist back then. There were actually published mods along these lines in the day but I am little hesitant to butcher the chassis to accomplish this. 3) scuttle the legacy RAM cards, most of which are 4K in size built with 2102's... and one 16K built with 2114... and replace them with a single homebrew RAM card using one 32Kx8 SRAM drawing almost no power in comparison to these old cards. Definitely not period and all the authentic RAM cards would be sitting on the shelf then but the power supply could remain unmodified. Any recommendations on the best choice? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From jlobocki at gmail.com Sat May 29 15:29:56 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 15:29:56 -0500 Subject: Video standards - chroma In-Reply-To: <4C0127D8.6090402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C006BE3.1010806@brouhaha.com> <4C0127D8.6090402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Ben wrote: > Randy Dawson wrote: > > Chanel 2, 54Mhz the lowest of the channels, Houston TX was reported >> with reception in the UK >> > > I guess this why the BBC produced so few westerns. :) > > Salt dome ground plane in the Houston area was cited as a reason, but >> this channel was well known for DX TV reception. >> >> > Ben. > from my time in cable, and growing up with antenna tv my first 10 or so years, I remember channel 2 used to be a prime target for interference, usually with motor or electrical noise, and im sure DX interference from other stations. it was also more prone to ghosting than any other stations, where the cable signal came in before or after the broadcast signal that somehow leaked into the cable or the leaky tv tuner, and would show up as a duplicate picture outline. From NewmansKnight at bellsouth.net Sat May 29 21:43:55 2010 From: NewmansKnight at bellsouth.net (Justin Newman) Date: Sat, 29 May 2010 22:43:55 -0400 Subject: Hacking an RS-170 tap into a B&W TV set? Message-ID: <03C24980F9864581858CDFDB167C73CC@kent2010> To Ethan Dicks, 7 years ago, you posted in an electronics forum, asking about how to install a composite video input into a cheap, 5 inch, 12 Volt b/w TV set. I've discovered how to do so, and if you're still interested but haven't found out, Let me know and I'll send you the info. I know this message may seem strange, coming to you so very looong after you first posted the question, but oh well... Here is the link to the forum where you posted the question. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/020120.html Sincerely, Justin Newman NewmansKnight at bellsouth.net From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun May 30 14:17:18 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:17:18 +0100 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: , <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C02B9BE.7010802@axeside.co.uk> >>> I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring a Tek 4051 >>> recently. I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still >>> have some documentation, and I found other manuals on >>> bitsavers.org but have not located any software. Do you know of >>> any source on-line? I found references on this site (Feb. 2009) >>> from other users talking about building an archive of software >>> for the 4051. I've never seen a 4051, but I possess a 4052. I bought it in a clear out at work rather a lot of years ago, and it's still my favourite machine in my collection. I had a dig around yesterday, and I found some of the stuff for it: 4050 Series Reference Manual 4050 Series Operator's Manual 4051 Option 1 (Data communications interface) operation manual 4052/2A/4/4A Service Manual (technical data) 4052/2A Service Manual (parts list and schematics) Those last two I bought from Tektronix soon after I acquired the machine. I don't begrudge them the more than 100 pounds each I paid for the two manuals, but I think it was pretty stingy of them to ship them without binders. Punched three-hole, too, so hard to find binders (In Europe, including here in the UK, we mostly use four holes at 8cm spacing) I also found a couple of tapes I made of programs - mostly fractals, but I think the Christmas card from the magazine is on there, and a partly finished program to draw maps in various projections. What I haven't found yet, but am pretty sure I have: A box of tapes from when the machine was new, with original software Some microfiches of Tek manuals, including a large number of issues of the 4050 Series Software Library Newsletter (later Tekniques magazine). It was one of these that I printed out in order to type in the Christmas card program. The microfiches were given me by someone in Tek UK when I was researching the talk I gave at the VCF in Santa Clara in 1998. I never wrote and thanked them, for which I feel horribly guilty. If someone has the equipment to scan microfiches, and is prepared to put in the time to sort the stuff and get it online, I shall be happy to hand them over. I could probably scan some manuals too - I think the scanner at work will do the A3 or ANSI B pages. It looks as though my next project will be to try and link the serial port of my 4052 (which is part of the ROM expansion backpack, of all things) to a machine on which I have internet access, or from which I can store on media that I can read on a machine with internet access. It's not until I try something like this that I realise just how poorly connected my collection is... >> I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over a serial port or >> the GPIB bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in >> progress (progress being very slow at the moment) based on >> disassembling the system ROMs and going through the service >> manuals. I recently came into possession of the actual source code >> for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche, which I've passed on to Al for >> archiving. Looking forward to reading through those once he's >> done! That is a great find! The 4052 has a very nice bitslice processor that mostly emulates a 6800 (the decimal adjust instruction is missing, and some simple memory management is added), so I suspect that a lot of 4052 ROM code is ported directly from the 4051. > Also, there is an effort here to put together a museum and archive > the efforts of this wonderful company: > > http://vintagetek.org/ Site looks promising. I wondered about signing up, but it asks me when I worked at Tek (I didn't) and whereabouts in the USA I live (I don't). OTOH I couldn't see any useful things like a mailing list or discussion forums. For the moment, I think I'll keep an eye on the site and see how it evolves. Philip. PS I think the 4050 series are great machines, and I'd love to get together with people here and form some sort of user group. From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun May 30 14:21:12 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:21:12 +0100 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C02BAA8.8030703@axeside.co.uk> > I found some of my notes to "un-secret" the programs on the 4051. You > need to load a string variable with 6800 program code and execute it to > clear the secret flag. This is what I found: > > You can execute at the command line: > > L$="7?008039" > > CALL "exec",L$ > > > > The string is code for the hexadecimal equivalent, where A through F is > replaced with a=":", b=";" c="<", d="=", e=">", f="?" Thank you! I have been searching for _years_ for a decent description of the EXEC command. I found an article in German a few years ago but never managed to read and understand it properly... And you've given a description in just a few lines. Thank you. Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun May 30 15:31:35 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 21:31:35 +0100 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: References: <4BFE0F1A.6070600@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C02CB27.9060803@axeside.co.uk> > So the information on > ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tek4051/ (I've already I have no idea whether the information is useful (and I do read German). My machine crashed when I tried to follow that link just now... > posted the link some time ago) is of no use? Funny, because I *did* > write a working BASIC program to dump tapes into CBM 8050 disk files (I > have that drive attached to our 4051 as you know). But I still have to > transfer these files to some other system... (too much other things to do). That's a good idea. I might be able to reconstruct that anyway. I did manage to load and save to 8050 but it was quite difficult, because the 4052 asserts IFC when you least want it to. I keep meaning to make up a GPIB cable without IFC. OTOH my PET isn't going to be the easiest machine to get stuff online from. I have the SSE serial box, but I may as well use the serial port on the 4052 expansion backpack... Philip. From trestivo at cfl.rr.com Sun May 30 19:55:08 2010 From: trestivo at cfl.rr.com (THOM RESTIVO) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 20:55:08 -0400 Subject: need help on PDP8/a Message-ID: <8C.F6.02347.DE8030C4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Does anyone know a reason why I can't remove the G8018's and G8019 and replace them with newer OEM power supplies? I know that one G8018 supplies 5V @ 25a, +15V @ 2a, -15V @ 2a and +20V @ 4a. I believe the 20V is only used for core memory. So.a 5v supply @ 50a should be sufficient, and a 2 dual output +/- 15v supply @ 2@ each should be a reasonable substitute. I am aware of the functions of the G8019 and that I would be defeating the "dead fan shutdown" and battery backup feature. OR. Does anyone have a written procedure for troubleshooting the backplane, specifically the SC260m triac, the opto isolator, the 2n6531 transistor and what causes the 47 ohm resistor to burn. With all boards removed I know how to defeat the removal of the two G8018's and on a good backplane by adding a jumper between two pins on the G8018 connectors. I can apply 3v to a pin on the G8019 connector to get the triac to fire. But this is not enough for troubleshooting a bad backplane. All help will be greatly appreciated. Thom Melbourne Florida From sieler at me.com Mon May 31 01:15:59 2010 From: sieler at me.com (Stanley Sieler) Date: Sun, 30 May 2010 23:15:59 -0700 Subject: Free: Macintosh IIcx motherboard Message-ID: <043BC296-1807-431D-A614-89CCD4EDB0DB@me.com> Hi, If anyone wants a Macintosh IIcx motherboard (free, and allegedly "new"), please email me offline at sieler at allegro.com. Board was found in the estate of a friend, box is marked as "new". Board was unopened until I broke the seal so I could get the model number: Macintosh IIcx Apple Computer 820-0230-B (c) 1988 Preference goes to anyone who can pick it up in Cupertino, CA. Otherwise, cost of shipping Fed-Ex is needed. thanks, Stan From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 31 17:04:07 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 23:04:07 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <007b01cb010e$35cc4320$e7195d0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 4:50 AM Subject: Re: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > Andrew Burton wrote: > > > I was thinking that Roman Numerals was the first time (I knew of) numbers > > being represented by letters, and that would have influenced whoever thought > > up the sexadecimal system (I can't find any reference to them on wiki - I'm > > sure it used to be there). Perhaps I was wrong. > > I think the Greeks used the letters of the alphabet as well for numbers. Years ago in Primary school we did learn the Greek alphabet. I can only remember a few now - Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Epsilon and Omega (A to E, and O?) > But who used numbers over a 100 when you think about it. > Yeah, I suppose back then there were very few reasons why you'd use large numbers. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon May 31 17:41:04 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 18:41:04 -0400 Subject: TI 990 micro terminal on ebay Message-ID: Hi All, Cool TI Micro terminal on ebay for the 990 family Item # 300432266833 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Mon May 31 17:50:48 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 18:50:48 -0400 Subject: Authenticity opinions Message-ID: <20100531225048.46FA4BA568C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Probably the lowest effort option also makes the fewest changes to the original: A small external "boost" autotransformer to give maybe 10 or 15% extra headroom. This could be done without using a big transformer. What you do is use a say 20VAC 3A transformer secondary in series with the primary, wired to that you end up with 140VAC with 120VAC in. This can use a physically much smaller transformer than a 140VAC 3A isolation transformer. I'm guessing the AC current at the input to the power supply is circa a very few amps or so (why I suggest a 20VAC 3A unit above). Tim. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon May 31 19:07:12 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 01:07:12 +0100 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100529183303.GE14469@n0jcf.net> References: <20100529183303.GE14469@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4C044F30.6020904@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/05/2010 19:33, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I have brought my SWTPC 6800 system back to life that I built as a kid > in 1976. It is pretty heavily loaded with RAM cards, floppy controller, > etc. and the 8V power supply rail was never really able to hold its own. > It sits at about 6.5V now... driving many 5V regulators on the various > cards. No where near enough margin going into those. I had the same problem with the power supply in my SWTPC floppy drive unit. > 2) add a new transformer to the existing supply just for the 8V rail. > This will also fit but requires moving the existing transformer, cap, > DC distribution board-- all efforts that require drilling new holes in > the chassis. This would be a more authentic solution since I wouldn't be > introducing power supply designs that didn't exist back then. There were > actually published mods along these lines in the day but I am little > hesitant to butcher the chassis to accomplish this. What I did was replace the silicon rectifier diodes with Schottky diodes, which have a much lower voltage drop. Problem solved. Assuming your existing transformer can actually produce enough current from the secondary, that might be enough for you too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 31 19:19:52 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 01:19:52 +0100 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 9:26 AM > >> On 29 May 2010 at 7:28, dwight elvey wrote: > >>> Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. >>> ?Decimal is just what you learned in school. > >> Exactly so! ?10 in the natural scheme of things, other than being a >> notational convenience for people using base ten is not terribly >> useful other than being able to count on your fingers (the Mayans, >> with their base twenty system, evidently used their toes as well). > > There is a language in the Amazon Basin, I believe Pirah?, (and this is > not like the "1,2,many" urban legend--there are write-ups in linguistic > journals) which works in base 19. ?Each finger joint, the back of the > hand, the wrist, the forearm, the upper arm, and the shoulder are the > counting points. This intrigued me and I went straight off to read about it. The Wikipedia article on Pirah? is pretty poor, but I've done lots of digging on the fascinating Prof Dan Everett and the Pirah? people and it's an intriguing story. Thanks for the pointer. However, from Everett himself, the Pirah? have no numbers or counting at all. They do have 1/2/many but Everett now reckons these are purely relative assessments, not counting. 2 small fish are "h?i" (few, because less) than one large fish ("ho?"). http://machineslikeus.com/interviews/machines-us-interviews-daniel-l-everett?page=0%2C0 It's amazing. The language, he argues, even lacks recursion and thus violates Chomsky's UG. Chomsky is thus infuriated and has disowned Everett, who he calls a charlatan. > In human language, there is no such thing as "the natural scheme of things". Ain't that the truth... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 31 19:38:58 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 20:38:58 -0400 Subject: Hacking an RS-170 tap into a B&W TV set? In-Reply-To: <03C24980F9864581858CDFDB167C73CC@kent2010> References: <03C24980F9864581858CDFDB167C73CC@kent2010> Message-ID: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Justin Newman wrote: > To Ethan Dicks, > > 7 years ago, you posted in an electronics forum, asking about how to install a composite video input into a cheap, 5 inch, 12 Volt b/w TV set. Was it really that long ago? I guess so, since I remember where I was working then. > I've discovered how to do so, and if you're still interested but haven't found out, Let me know and I'll send you the info. I know this message may seem strange, coming to you so very looong after you first posted the question, but oh well... Yes, I'd love to know (and I can lay hands on that TV in 30 seconds). Please send me the info offline. Thanks much! -ethan From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon May 31 20:16:49 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 21:16:49 -0400 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C045F81.9050008@degnanco.com> > I have brought my SWTPC 6800 system back to life that I built as a kid > in 1976. It is pretty heavily loaded with RAM cards, floppy controller, > etc. and the 8V power supply rail was never really able to hold its own. > It sits at about 6.5V now... driving many 5V regulators on the various > cards. No where near enough margin going into those. > > So, I am contemplating the following, > > 1) rebuild entire power supply using three switchers, 7.5v unit nudged > up to 8V and two 12V units to supply ?12 on the backplane. > > 2) add a new transformer to the existing supply just for the 8V rail. > > 3) scuttle the legacy RAM cards, most of which are 4K in size built > with 2102's... and one 16K built with 2114... and replace them with a > single homebrew RAM card using one 32Kx8 SRAM drawing almost no power > in comparison to these old cards. > > Any recommendations on the best choice? > > Chris > > Chris, If you're planning on using the system somewhat frequently I suggest making the newer RAM card, keeping the power supply as-is, and saving the old RAM cards for the future in events where you want the original system intact. Best of both worlds. Bill Degnan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 31 20:49:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 18:49:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hacking an RS-170 tap into a B&W TV set? In-Reply-To: <03C24980F9864581858CDFDB167C73CC@kent2010> References: <03C24980F9864581858CDFDB167C73CC@kent2010> Message-ID: <20100531184812.H49234@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 29 May 2010, Justin Newman wrote: > To Ethan Dicks, > 7 years ago, you posted in an electronics forum, asking about how to install a composite video input into a cheap, 5 inch, 12 Volt b/w TV set. I've discovered how to do so, and if you're still interested but haven't found out, Let me know and I'll send you the info. I know this message may seem strange, coming to you so very looong after you first posted the question, but oh well... > Here is the link to the forum where you posted the question. > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-March/020120.html > Sincerely, > Justin Newman > NewmansKnight at bellsouth.net For something much different from Don Lancaster's "Cheap Video Cookbook"? From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 31 21:07:30 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 03:07:30 +0100 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 1:19 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Chuck Guzis >> Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 9:26 AM >> >>> On 29 May 2010 at 7:28, dwight elvey wrote: >> >>>> Thing in the physical world are fraction of powers of fractions. >>>> ?Decimal is just what you learned in school. >> >>> Exactly so! ?10 in the natural scheme of things, other than being a >>> notational convenience for people using base ten is not terribly >>> useful other than being able to count on your fingers (the Mayans, >>> with their base twenty system, evidently used their toes as well). >> >> There is a language in the Amazon Basin, I believe Pirah?, (and this is >> not like the "1,2,many" urban legend--there are write-ups in linguistic >> journals) which works in base 19. ?Each finger joint, the back of the >> hand, the wrist, the forearm, the upper arm, and the shoulder are the >> counting points. > > This intrigued me and I went straight off to read about it. > > The Wikipedia article on Pirah? is pretty poor, but I've done lots of > digging on the fascinating Prof Dan Everett and the Pirah? people and > it's an intriguing story. Thanks for the pointer. > > However, from Everett himself, the Pirah? have no numbers or counting > at all. They do have 1/2/many but Everett now reckons these are purely > relative assessments, not counting. 2 small fish are "h?i" (few, > because less) than one large fish ("ho?"). > > http://machineslikeus.com/interviews/machines-us-interviews-daniel-l-everett?page=0%2C0 > > It's amazing. The language, he argues, even lacks recursion and thus > violates Chomsky's UG. Chomsky is thus infuriated and has disowned > Everett, who he calls a charlatan. > >> In human language, there is no such thing as "the natural scheme of things". > > Ain't that the truth... Dammit, even used the wrong diacritical. Pirah?. Sorry. It's not their own name for themselves, anyway, which is Hi'aiti'ihi'... ? (By the way, they do not call themselves Pirah?, which is not even a word of their language. They refer to themselves as the Hi'aiti'ihi'. The ' indicates high tone on preceding vowel, no mark indicates low tone. Literally the name has four parts, glossed as 'his+bone+straight+Nominalizer'. A rough English translation is 'the straight one[s]'.) ? http://158.130.17.5/~myl/languagelog/archives/001387.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon May 31 21:21:31 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 22:21:31 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C0408BE.4060104@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4C0408BE.4060104@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: >> Does anyone know the exact terms of the ban? I understand that the ban >> only covers domestic ligthing, and it;s legal to sell filament lamps for >> other applications, Is it legal for me to import them myself for my own use >> (particularly id that use is not 'domestic lighting')? > > I don't know about importing, or even the exact terms of the ban, but the > only exemptions I recall seeing are for medical lamps. In the US, the legislation has more exemptions than not. In fact, if the bill is read (and I have, the real text from Congress), *only* plain old 120 V domestic light bulbs are targeted. Pretty much everything else is either explicitly exempted, or implied to be exempt. So, if you want to go into new production of those stupid little bulbs DEC loved, The Man can not hold you back. Even for plain old 120 V Edison base bulbs, if you *really* hate CFLs, you can still buy new production "rough service" 120 V Edison base bulbs. They are explicitly exempted in the bill, but the catch is that they can not be sold in packages of two or more. Large deal. Could someone read the text of the European legislation? It would not surprise me if there are very similar exemptions written out as law, and indeed the sky is not falling. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 31 21:29:04 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 19:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hacking an RS-170 tap into a B&W TV set? In-Reply-To: <20100531184812.H49234@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <802646.44692.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 5/31/10, Fred Cisin wrote: > For something much different from Don Lancaster's "Cheap > Video Cookbook"? Yeah. He's trying to hack video into a set based around an AN1515 chip. It contains pretty much most of the transistors in the set all in one chip. You can pipe video directly into the video output transistor, but you won't have any sync. It's a tricky problem that I actually sorted out a couple weeks ago myself. Basically, you cut off the the input from pins 1 and 28, then sever the video output at the base of the video output transistor and feed in your video signal there. Then detach the set's circuitry from the sync separator input (pin 6) and feed composite video into the chip there. I was only able to figure it out because I found the datasheet for the chip on the 'net. I was unable to find the schematic for the television. The set I've used was a 12" AC powered set, so I have to use an isolation transformer. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 31 21:37:36 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 20:37:36 -0600 Subject: TI 990 micro terminal on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 31 May 2010 18:41:04 -0400. Message-ID: In article , Robert Borsuk writes: > Cool TI Micro terminal on ebay for the 990 family > Item # 300432266833 Very odd. Looks like a TI-30 enclosure! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon May 31 22:51:56 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 22:51:56 -0500 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? Message-ID: What's up with the badge? Wasn't the 3270 a mainframe terminal? http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-PC-Personal-Computer-3270-Vintage-NO-RESERVE-/280514906029?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item414ffdc7ad From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon May 31 22:58:56 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 13:58:56 +1000 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > What's up with the badge? ?Wasn't the 3270 a mainframe terminal? yes, and ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC Quote: The IBM 3270 PC (model 5271), released in October 1983, was an IBM PC XT containing additional hardware which could emulate the behaviour of an IBM 3270 terminal. It could therefore be used both as a standalone computer, and as a terminal to a mainframe. IBM later released the 3270 AT (model 5281), which was a similar design based on the IBM PC AT. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon May 31 22:59:46 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 20:59:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <879423.4685.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 5/31/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > What's up with the badge?? > Wasn't the 3270 a mainframe terminal? > Correct. It's a PC/XT with a 3270 emulation board in it. Originally it would have been available with a monitor capable of displaying all the 3270 colors, as well as a full keyboard with extra function keys. -Ian From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon May 31 23:01:28 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 00:01:28 -0400 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201006010001.28655.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 31 May 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > What's up with the badge? Wasn't the 3270 a mainframe terminal? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-PC-Personal-Computer-3270-Vintage-NO-RESERVE- > /280514906029?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item414ffdc7ad It was a PC with a 3270 emulation card. It appears that the hard drive has been removed, so it's missing the software. Does anyone (here) still have the 3270 emulation software for one of these? Without that it's basically an IBM PC/XT with some useless extra card(s) in it. I guess it should also have a special (3270 layout) keyboard, which is missing. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 31 23:15:42 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 21:15:42 -0700 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:58 PM +1000 6/1/10, Nigel Williams wrote: >On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> What's up with the badge? Wasn't the 3270 a mainframe terminal? > >yes, and ... > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC > >Quote: >The IBM 3270 PC (model 5271), released in October 1983, was an IBM PC >XT containing additional hardware which could emulate the behaviour of >an IBM 3270 terminal. It could therefore be used both as a standalone >computer, and as a terminal to a mainframe. > >IBM later released the 3270 AT (model 5281), which was a similar >design based on the IBM PC AT. We had something similar that let us use them as terminals on a Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframe. Though instead of a HD we had dual Iomega (I think that was the brand) cartridge drives). They were much nicer to use than the *ANCIENT* Honeywell Terminals we had. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From silent700 at gmail.com Mon May 31 23:42:56 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 23:42:56 -0500 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: <201006010001.28655.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201006010001.28655.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > card(s) in it. ?I guess it should also have a special (3270 layout) > keyboard, which is missing. And we threw out a couple dozen (at least) of those at work last year. Ugh. They were Model M keyboards with the extended row of function keys (or was it an extra row?) AFAIK, they could not be used with PCs. -- j From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 31 23:58:52 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 21:58:52 -0700 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: References: <201006010001.28655.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C04938C.9010603@brouhaha.com> On 05/31/2010 09:42 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 11:01 PM, Patrick Finnegan > wrote: > >> card(s) in it. I guess it should also have a special (3270 layout) >> keyboard, which is missing. >> > And we threw out a couple dozen (at least) of those at work last year. > Ugh. They were Model M keyboards with the extended row of function > keys (or was it an extra row?) AFAIK, they could not be used with > PCs. > Many of the IBM 122-key keyboards can sort of work on a PC if you wire an adapter and put up with some idiosyncracies. Google turned up several web pages about interfacing them .They have the same electrical interface as an AT keyboard, but with a different DIN connector, and they only support scancode set 2. http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/ibm_1390876.html http://www.kbdbabel.org/ http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7306 http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=6770 I recently got one of the APL ones (IBM P/N 1389194) and I'd like to pull the microcontroller (probably an 8048 or equivalent) and replace it with a microcontroller with a USB interface. Some of the microcontroller vendors have published sample code for implementing USB HID keyboards, so it shouldn't be too difficult to make it work. Unfortunately I have eleventy-seven higher priority things to do. Eric From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon May 31 18:23:07 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 18:23:07 -0500 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> Ben wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Can anyone tell me the approximate transistor count of the 6809? >> >> -Dave >> > Well for a ballpark figure I would double the 6800 transistor count. > 2x microcode rom & 2x registers. > > http://www.techheap.com/processors/6809/the_6809.pdf > > I get about 40K transistors as ball park figure. > Ben. > Thanks for that link; I love reading stuff like that. I'll admit I've not diligently researched all the possibilities, but of all the 8-bitters I've ever encountered, the 6809 is definitely my favorite. The only problem I have with that pdf file is, with my Foxit reader anyway, all the pictures are blank. I need to go try it with Adobe to see if that matters. Any one else have that problem? Later, Charlie C.