From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 1 00:33:46 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 22:33:46 -0700 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: <4C04938C.9010603@brouhaha.com> References: <201006010001.28655.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C04938C.9010603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On May 31, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I recently got one of the APL ones (IBM P/N 1389194) and I'd like to > pull the microcontroller (probably an 8048 or equivalent) and > replace it with a microcontroller with a USB interface. Dang, I've been looking for one of those to use with an XT I got in a load of other nonsense, which had a CGA card with the APL ROM, and IBM APL2 on the drive. ok bear From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 1 00:57:34 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 22:57:34 -0700 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: References: <201006010001.28655.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C04938C.9010603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C04A14E.2000606@brouhaha.com> On 05/31/2010 10:33 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > > On May 31, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> I recently got one of the APL ones (IBM P/N 1389194) and I'd like to >> pull the microcontroller (probably an 8048 or equivalent) and replace >> it with a microcontroller with a USB interface. > > Dang, I've been looking for one of those to use with an XT I got in a > load of other nonsense, which had a CGA card with the APL ROM, and IBM > APL2 on the drive. > > ok > bear > It doesn't work with an XT, and there's no simple way to make it. AFAIK, IBM's APL for the XT used a regular XT keyboard with either stickers or replacement keycaps. I've never heard of APL2 for the XT, but if such a thing existed, I'd expect it too would have wanted a "normal" keyboard with APL keycaps, and not a 122-key keyboard as IBM used on 327x or 317x terminals. Eric From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 1 01:22:47 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 23:22:47 -0700 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: <879423.4685.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <879423.4685.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On May 31, 2010, at 8:59 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Mon, 5/31/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> What's up with the badge? >> Wasn't the 3270 a mainframe terminal? >> > > Correct. It's a PC/XT with a 3270 emulation board in it. Originally > it would have been available with a monitor capable of displaying > all the 3270 colors, as well as a full keyboard with extra function > keys. The PC 3270 is a little more than that. It uses a lot of hardware and a little software to give you a multitasking XT that can be used as a multiple-session 3270 terminal. It has a special display adapter taking up to three slots and offering an incomplete CGA emulation (with the optional APA card), a special keyboard interface card which contains the necessary ROM code for the display adapter and 3270 communications, and the 3270 communications card. I think part of the reason for this was the small memory size on the XT, combined with the unsuitable display adapter options. Eventually the hardware got good enough that all the emulation could be done in software, with just a coax card providing the 3270 interface. But that happened later. The PC 3270 ROM will not work with (all? most?) 3270 cards intended for use with the later, software-only emulations. This one on eBay appears complete, with just the base video adapter (no APA or PSA options) and a short 3270 card I didn't know it would work with. The hard drive has been removed, obviously, which means you would need to find a copy of the IBM PC 3270 control program before you could put any of it to use. I think I probably have a copy of it somewhere. ok bear From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 1 02:57:27 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 00:57:27 -0700 Subject: 6809 transistor count? References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4C04BD66.123288C1@cs.ubc.ca> CSquared wrote: > Ben wrote: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me the approximate transistor count of the 6809? > >> > > Well for a ballpark figure I would double the 6800 transistor count. > > 2x microcode rom & 2x registers. > > > > http://www.techheap.com/processors/6809/the_6809.pdf > > > > I get about 40K transistors as ball park figure. > > > Thanks for that link; I love reading stuff like that. I'll admit I've > not diligently researched all the possibilities, but of all the > 8-bitters I've ever encountered, the 6809 is definitely my favorite. > The only problem I have with that pdf file is, with my Foxit reader > anyway, all the pictures are blank. I need to go try it with Adobe to > see if that matters. >Any one else have that problem? Yes, I can't see them either - using an old version of Acrobat Reader. Fun read, nice that they spent some time on the history of logic development. We've mentioned the breadboarding of the 6809 or 68000 design on the list previously, but seeing it written up in a period article does make the whole notion of breadboarding a new micro-processor design in TTL sound very quaint today. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 1 07:45:31 2010 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 08:45:31 -0400 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100529183303.GE14469@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Chris Elmquist wrote: > I have brought my SWTPC 6800 system back to life that I built as a kid > in 1976. It is pretty heavily loaded with RAM cards, floppy controller, > etc. and the 8V power supply rail was never really able to hold its own. > It sits at about 6.5V now... driving many 5V regulators on the various > cards. No where near enough margin going into those. > > So, I am contemplating the following, > > 1) rebuild entire power supply using three switchers, 7.5v unit nudged > up to 8V and two 12V units to supply +/-12 on the backplane. All of > these will fit inside the original cabinet in place of the linear > supply's transformer, giant electrolytic cap, bridge rectifier, etc. > I'd mount these switchers to an aluminum plate that would fit into the > chassis and use existing mounting holes thereby not drilling any new > holes in the chassis. This would be the least "period" solution but > allow all of the original cards to run in the machine with power to spare. I have gone with this option for two of my more heavily loaded OSI boxes. While not "authentic" it has the bonus of being easily reversible and clearly identifiable as a modern modification. I kept all of the original PS components in a clearly labeled box, the label also giving details of how to restore the unit to original condition. Bill From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jun 1 08:55:36 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 09:55:36 -0400 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4C051158.10201@verizon.net> On 5/31/2010 7:23 PM, CSquared wrote: The > only problem I have with that pdf file is, with my Foxit reader anyway, > all the pictures are blank. I need to go try it with Adobe to see if > that matters. Any one else have that problem? > Later, > Charlie C. Adobe Reader 9 shows no pictures as well. Keith From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 10:13:07 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 08:13:07 -0700 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C051158.10201@verizon.net> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> <4C051158.10201@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Keith M wrote: > > Adobe Reader 9 shows no pictures as well. > The picture are there in this copy: http://tlindner.macmess.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/byte_6809_articles.pdf From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 1 10:35:26 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 08:35:26 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad Message-ID: Okay, I know the iPad is totally OT, but here is my question, does anyone on this list have one, and have you tried using it for reading PDF's off of Bitsavers? How practical is this? I'm finally making real progress at getting my computer "lab" setup with the systems I plan to keep, and don't have a way to read manuals out there. Currently the only computer that doesn't have a VT420 attached is the Commodore 64. Guess I should get the SGI o2 or Sunblade 1000 hooked up... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jun 1 10:53:33 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 08:53:33 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I went to the Apple Store - a horrible experience - and tried it out on Bitsavers. The good news is that it renders even older PDFs quite well, and the two-finger zoom allows you to focus in on the part of a print you need. The bad news is that you can't save it to the device! The good news is that there appears to be an app in the App Store called GoodReader that will allow you to save them; I also found an article on using iTunes (the primary mechanism for handling content) to organize PDFs. The worst news is that it's virtually impossible to buy one of the silly things. IMHO, Apple is constricting supply to keep up the hype. So I plan to wait for Google's competitor - the gPad? - that is strongly rumored to be coming out later this year. I really like Apple's products, but I hate their approach to business.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 8:35 AM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad Okay, I know the iPad is totally OT, but here is my question, does anyone on this list have one, and have you tried using it for reading PDF's off of Bitsavers? How practical is this? I'm finally making real progress at getting my computer "lab" setup with the systems I plan to keep, and don't have a way to read manuals out there. Currently the only computer that doesn't have a VT420 attached is the Commodore 64. Guess I should get the SGI o2 or Sunblade 1000 hooked up... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 1 11:16:49 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 10:16:49 -0600 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4C053271.4000804@jetnet.ab.ca> CSquared wrote: > Thanks for that link; I love reading stuff like that. I'll admit I've > not diligently researched all the possibilities, but of all the > 8-bitters I've ever encountered, the 6809 is definitely my favorite. The > only problem I have with that pdf file is, with my Foxit reader anyway, > all the pictures are blank. I need to go try it with Adobe to see if > that matters. Any one else have that problem? > Later, They are blank for some reason. There are other copies I think on the net, but that was the first one Google found. > Charlie C. > This was printed in BYTE before it became a PC only mag, so you may find it in local library. Not around here, the local library stopped keeping any subscriptions 15 years ago. From ray at arachelian.com Tue Jun 1 11:31:54 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 12:31:54 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> On 05/30/2010 03:02 PM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > > Well I've pretty much used CFLs here for a few years now, they last > longer (if correctly used), generate less heat, which is deffo an > advantage for the anglepoise that I use for close work :) > > Guess I've just gotten used to them. There's even dimmable ones now, though they still look odd color wise, and they seem to have some capacitance effect. If I put the dimmer all the way down, but not to the off position, sometimes they still glow for a little while, other times they don't at all. I wish the LED lights would go down in price, but even then, they seem to be a bit, um, directional, and they don't provide very much light. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 1 11:55:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 09:55:34 -0700 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> References: , <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2010 at 12:31, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I wish the LED lights would go down in price, but even then, they seem > to be a bit, um, directional, and they don't provide very much light. A pet peeve of mine--almost the only thing making CFLs affordable is manufacturing in China--and many in my experience have a real lifetime shorter than their incandescent relatives. Some failures are due undoubtedly to bad design, but I think another factor is the actual application. Most CFLs are engineered to be used in a base-down application so the head-producing components are cooled by convection. Yet very few of these things, in my experience are used in any position except base- up, trapping the heat and causing premature failure. I hope that when useful and affordable LED versions become available, this also won't be a problem, but I'm not holding my breath. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 1 12:22:26 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 10:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Ian King wrote: > I went to the Apple Store - a horrible experience - and tried it out on > Bitsavers. The good news is that it renders even older PDFs quite well, > and the two-finger zoom allows you to focus in on the part of a print you > need. The bad news is that you can't save it to the device! The good > news is that there appears to be an app in the App Store called GoodReader > that will allow you to save them; I also found an article on using iTunes > (the primary mechanism for handling content) to organize PDFs. Okay, that tends to limit its usefulness... Does it have the equivelant of an /etc/hosts file, or will it let you punch in an IP address on your own network? > The worst news is that it's virtually impossible to buy one of the silly > things. IMHO, Apple is constricting supply to keep up the hype. There is that, but I can't get one right now, as supposedly it won't work with my Dual 2Ghz PowerMac G5. > So I plan to wait for Google's competitor - the gPad? - that is strongly > rumored to be coming out later this year. I really like Apple's products, > but I hate their approach to business.... -- Ian You're not alone. I *NEED* a new Mac Pro. This isn't simply a want, I need it for Adobe Photoshop, and because bits of my PowerMac are starting to die (onboard NIC and Optical Drive so far). I refuse to buy a model that is 15+ months old! Most models get two updates in that period of time. :-( Zane From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 1 12:57:25 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 18:57:25 +0100 Subject: Hacking an RS-170 tap into a B&W TV set? In-Reply-To: <03C24980F9864581858CDFDB167C73CC@kent2010> Message-ID: Justin Newman [NewmansKnight at bellsouth.net] wrote: > To Ethan Dicks, > > 7 years ago, you posted in an electronics forum, asking about > how to install a composite video input into a cheap, 5 inch, > 12 Volt b/w TV set. I've discovered how to do so, and if > you're still interested but haven't found out, Let me know > and I'll send you the info. I know this message may seem > strange, coming to you so very looong after you first posted the > question, but oh well... Why not just post the solution here? I may not care right now but I might within the next 10 years, and if I do I'll find it rather than finding your email and having to hope that you still remember how to do it ... Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 1 13:00:44 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:00:44 +0100 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Liam Proven [lproven at gmail.com] wrote: > On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rich Alderson >> There is a language in the Amazon Basin, I believe Pirah?, (and this >> is not like the "1,2,many" urban legend--there are write-ups in >> linguistic journals) which works in base 19. ?Each finger joint, the >> back of the hand, the wrist, the forearm, the upper arm, and the >> shoulder are the counting points. > > This intrigued me and I went straight off to read about it. There's at least one New Scientist article that covers this particular group. I read it on dead tree, but I assume that subscribers could just search the archives for Everett and see it for themselves. one/two/many does seem to be for real, but there are many other fascinating things about these people and their language and how it seems to have shaped their thought processes. I guess they'd at least be able cope with binary (at least for sufficiently small numbers). Antonio From ss at allegro.com Tue Jun 1 13:02:18 2010 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 11:02:18 -0700 Subject: Free: Macintosh IIcx motherboard In-Reply-To: <043BC296-1807-431D-A614-89CCD4EDB0DB@me.com> References: <043BC296-1807-431D-A614-89CCD4EDB0DB@me.com> Message-ID: <2A5B3075-36AB-45E6-998C-94EC27B823EB@allegro.com> Claimed. On May 30, 2010, at 11:15 PM, Stanley Sieler wrote: > Hi, > > If anyone wants a Macintosh IIcx motherboard (free, and allegedly "new"), > please email me offline at sieler at allegro.com. > > Board was found in the estate of a friend, box is marked as "new". > Board was unopened until I broke the seal so I could get the > model number: > > Macintosh IIcx Apple Computer > 820-0230-B (c) 1988 > > Preference goes to anyone who can pick it up in Cupertino, CA. > Otherwise, cost of shipping Fed-Ex is needed. > > thanks, > > Stan > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 1 13:20:19 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 19:20:19 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C001D7E.15036.2A3AFB5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C001D7E.15036.2A3AFB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C054F63.8040600@philpem.me.uk> On 29/05/10 03:46, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Over in the great Metric Brotherhood, how many eggs are in a carton? Half a dozen in a small box, a dozen in a medium box, two dozen in a large box and 48 if you buy by the tray (IIRC). The 48-egg trays aren't often seen outside of farmer's markets and bakeries IME, 6/12-egg boxes are the norm for your average street-corner off-license or supermarket. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ss at allegro.com Tue Jun 1 13:21:50 2010 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 11:21:50 -0700 Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK - counting in 12's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7939B67E-1B67-4E4C-9030-41D31C33103F@allegro.com> On May 31, 2010, at 11:01 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> There was a system from the ancient world using the segments of the >>> fingers to count with the thumb as a marker. >> >> My parents used a counting-on-the-knuckles scheme for remembering the >> days in each month. I don't recall the details, however. (hmm...I didn't get that post, but saw Tony's reference to it) My dad taught me that method around 1960 or so. Using your right first finger as a pointer, point to the first knuckle (closest to palm) on your first finger of your left hand ... we'll be counting to the left (towards the little finger). Touch the knuckle, and say "January". Touch the valley between the first and second finger, ad say "February". Touch the knuckle of the second finger, ad say "March". When you hit the knuckle of the little finger, it's July. Since you've run out of fingers, go back to the first finger, touch the knuckle and say "August". Continue until you run out of months. The knuckles are 31 days, the valleys are 30 (except Feb, of course). Stan From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jun 1 13:30:02 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 11:30:02 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 10:22 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Semi-OT: Apple iPad > > > > On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Ian King wrote: > > > I went to the Apple Store - a horrible experience - and tried it out > on > > Bitsavers. The good news is that it renders even older PDFs quite > well, > > and the two-finger zoom allows you to focus in on the part of a print > you > > need. The bad news is that you can't save it to the device! The > good > > news is that there appears to be an app in the App Store called > GoodReader > > that will allow you to save them; I also found an article on using > iTunes > > (the primary mechanism for handling content) to organize PDFs. > > Okay, that tends to limit its usefulness... Does it have the > equivelant of > an /etc/hosts file, or will it let you punch in an IP address on your > own > network? > Its Wifi is quite useable, and I don't think there'd be any problem using it on one's home network (or things would be REALLY mucked up). But I want to use it the same way you do, and where I do most of my work *there is no Wifi network*. I need the PDFs stored locally. GoodReader will supposedly do that, and it's only 99 cents - but I think it's stupid to be so aggressive about telling the consumer just how you will use the device. The fact that GoodReader exists should be a clear message that people are not interested in being locked into the use cases written by Apple marketers. > > The worst news is that it's virtually impossible to buy one of the > silly > > things. IMHO, Apple is constricting supply to keep up the hype. > > There is that, but I can't get one right now, as supposedly it won't > work > with my Dual 2Ghz PowerMac G5. > > > So I plan to wait for Google's competitor - the gPad? - that is > strongly > > rumored to be coming out later this year. I really like Apple's > products, > > but I hate their approach to business.... -- Ian > > You're not alone. I *NEED* a new Mac Pro. This isn't simply a want, I > need > it for Adobe Photoshop, and because bits of my PowerMac are starting to > die > (onboard NIC and Optical Drive so far). I refuse to buy a model that > is 15+ > months old! Most models get two updates in that period of time. :-( > > Zane > > When I dropped my G4 AlBook , I bought another one on CraigsList for $250. I did make one mistake: the new one is a 1.25GHz model, and I didn't realize until after the fact that it doesn't have the improved trackpad that lets you scroll with two fingers. I really like that feature - but I'm managing to live without it. I don't know what I'm going to do when my PPC-based products finally fail, but I'll burn that bridge when I come to it. I run PhotoShop on my dual-proc PowerMac, and I think of it as a *feature* that I have time to go get a beer while it starts up. :-) -- Ian From tony.eros at machm.org Tue Jun 1 13:53:03 2010 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 14:53:03 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d1701cb01bb$acc95960$065c0c20$@machm.org> I have an iPad. There's a lot I like about the device in general, but it does not do a particularly good job of working with PDFs. Adobe does not provide a reader (not surprising, given their current feud with Apple) and the 3rd party apps are clunky at best. Little support for bookmarks, wonky page navigation. It's a terrific form factor for reviewing documentation, but I would currently give it a "D" as a tool for reading PDFs. -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 11:35 AM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad Okay, I know the iPad is totally OT, but here is my question, does anyone on this list have one, and have you tried using it for reading PDF's off of Bitsavers? How practical is this? I'm finally making real progress at getting my computer "lab" setup with the systems I plan to keep, and don't have a way to read manuals out there. Currently the only computer that doesn't have a VT420 attached is the Commodore 64. Guess I should get the SGI o2 or Sunblade 1000 hooked up... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 1 14:03:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 15:03:37 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: <5d1701cb01bb$acc95960$065c0c20$@machm.org> References: <5d1701cb01bb$acc95960$065c0c20$@machm.org> Message-ID: <4C055989.80205@neurotica.com> On 6/1/10 2:53 PM, Tony Eros wrote: > I have an iPad. There's a lot I like about the device in general, but it > does not do a particularly good job of working with PDFs. Adobe does not > provide a reader (not surprising, given their current feud with Apple) and > the 3rd party apps are clunky at best. Little support for bookmarks, wonky > page navigation. It's a terrific form factor for reviewing documentation, > but I would currently give it a "D" as a tool for reading PDFs. I suggest giving it some time, as it's a brand-new device. Look at how many software deficiencies the iPhone had when it first hit the streets; nearly all of them have been resolved. Every show-stopper that kept me from moving to an iPhone went away one-by-one over a year or two. I'm not being an apologist at all, just pointing it out.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 1 14:01:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 12:01:38 -0700 Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK - counting in 12's In-Reply-To: <7939B67E-1B67-4E4C-9030-41D31C33103F@allegro.com> References: , <7939B67E-1B67-4E4C-9030-41D31C33103F@allegro.com> Message-ID: <4C04F6A2.21140.8CDB92@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2010 at 11:21, Stan Sieler wrote: > Touch the knuckle, and say "January". Touch the valley between the > first and second finger, ad say "February"... Yes, that's the one, except my parents (and their parents) said "Sausis, Vasaris, Kovas..." I'm surprised that no one commented on the "guidonian hand"--another use of the hand as a memory and counting device. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jun 1 14:02:28 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 12:02:28 -0700 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C00DD8D.8632.3CA738@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Liam Proven Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 5:20 PM > On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> There is a language in the Amazon Basin, I believe Pirah?, (and this is >> not like the "1,2,many" urban legend--there are write-ups in linguistic >> journals) which works in base 19. Each finger joint, the back of the >> hand, the wrist, the forearm, the upper arm, and the shoulder are the >> counting points. > This intrigued me and I went straight off to read about it. > The Wikipedia article on Pirah? is pretty poor, but I've done lots of > digging on the fascinating Prof Dan Everett and the Pirah? people and > it's an intriguing story. Thanks for the pointer. > However, from Everett himself, the Pirah? have no numbers or counting > at all. They do have 1/2/many but Everett now reckons these are purely > relative assessments, not counting. 2 small fish are "h?i" (few, > because less) than one large fish ("ho?"). OK, the base-19 language will have been mentioned in one of the discussions I ran across, on the Linguist mailing list or elsewhere, of Everett's claims regarding Pirah?, when people were discussing exotic number systems. I do remember feeling uneasy about the 1/2/many thing in Everett's claims. > It's amazing. The language, he argues, even lacks recursion and thus > violates Chomsky's UG. Chomsky is thus infuriated and has disowned > Everett, who he calls a charlatan. I also remember this. Were I not a believer in the statement below, I would have serious misgivings regarding the reality of Pirah? myself. >> In human language, there is no such thing as "the natural scheme of things". > Ain't that the truth... Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jun 1 14:17:51 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 15:17:51 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: <4C055989.80205@neurotica.com> References: <5d1701cb01bb$acc95960$065c0c20$@machm.org> <4C055989.80205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C055CDF.30401@verizon.net> On 6/1/2010 3:03 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I suggest giving it some time, as it's a brand-new device. While Dave is right that version 1.0 of anything is usually pretty rough..... > Look at > how many software deficiencies the iPhone had when it first hit the > streets; nearly all of them have been resolved. Every show-stopper that > kept me from moving to an iPhone went away one-by-one over a year or two. Two years for a major company with huge resources to add simple features seems just way way too long. I wonder about the obsolescence of the hardware while the OS develops into a usable form. Copy & paste took Apple two years and two major releases (1.x--->3.0) on the iphone. http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/17/iphone-finally-gets-copy-and-paste/ There are plenty of examples of similar phones, PDAs etc, having these basic features ten years before. > I'm not being an apologist at all, just pointing it out.. yeah, ok, uh huh. :) > -Dave Keith From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 14:28:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 15:28:34 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: <4C055CDF.30401@verizon.net> References: <5d1701cb01bb$acc95960$065c0c20$@machm.org> <4C055989.80205@neurotica.com> <4C055CDF.30401@verizon.net> Message-ID: > While Dave is right that version 1.0 of anything is usually pretty > rough..... VMS 1.0 was apparently really rough. -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jun 1 14:32:09 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 12:32:09 -0700 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C02A88B.29035.230F76C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C02A88B.29035.230F76C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 6:04 PM > On 31 May 2010 at 1:27, Andrew Burton wrote: >> I was thinking that Roman Numerals was the first time (I knew of) >> numbers being represented by letters, and that would have influenced >> whoever thought up the sexadecimal system (I can't find any reference >> to them on wiki - I'm sure it used to be there). Perhaps I was wrong. Is Andrew thinking of the sexagesimal (base 60) system? That arose in Mesopotamia a millennium or more prior to the Romans. > You may be thinking of the way the ancient Greeks represented > numbers. (there were at least two systems--one similar to the Roman > and the other using letters for 1-9, 10-90, 100-900, with special > modifiers for 1000-9000. After that the modifier for a myriad > (10,000, quite literally) was used with each letter.) Which the Greeks inherited in turn from the Phoenicians; ancient Hebrew also used such a system. The origin of the numeral system in Greek is in fact earlier than some of the changes leading from the late Bronze Age dialects to the classical ones: The letters wau (later called "digamma" for its shape F, when the sound was long lost in all Greek dialects), qoppa, and sampi were used for "6", "90", and "900" respectively. The Semitic languages from whom this system was borrowed had (have) more than one s-like sound, and two k-like sounds; Greek mixed the names of some of the Phoenician letters to yield the names sigma and san (the "lunate sigma" used in some inscriptions and manuscripts). Note that the Indo-European linguistic ancestors of the Greeks, Romans, etc., used a decimal counting system which some daughter groups tweaked. (The Germanic group, for example, partially adopted a 12-based system on top of the decimal, naming the next values after "10" as "one-left" and "two-left".) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 12:57:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 18:57:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: TNMOC restorations (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK?) In-Reply-To: <5B1B71F8494D40E2A3AB17D0755D5E0E@xp32vm> from "Andy Holt" at May 29, 10 03:28:39 pm Message-ID: > > >>>>(tony) > > > Have you read the report in Computer Resurextion? (This is the _only_ > > > indformation I have seen on this project). There were a couple of > > > things > > > that really upset me... > > >=20 > > > > I had previously heard this story directly from the gentlemen involved, > pre= > > tty much verbatim. What do you find upsetting? =20 > > > > I don't have the appropriate copy of Computer Resurection to hand, but > from what I recall it said something like (this is a paraphrase, but I > hope I've kept the meaning) > > 'After basic electircal safety tests we applied power and the machine > appeared to start up correctly' > > 'However one part proved unreliable, we replaced all the PCBs, but it was > still unreliavly. In the end we discovered the power supply was faulty, > so we replaced that' ... etc > <<<< > > The article is online at > http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res48.htm#e That doesn't appear to be the articel form Computer Ressurection (it says as much on the sitr). > It is worth rereading to correct your memories > It shows that a great deal of care was taken in the process. I;ve read it, and I agree that I had misremembered some details. However, I feel my 2 major commetns still stand -- that not enough checking was done (or at least it's not recorded as being done) before the machine was powered up, andthat a PSU was swapped out when it should have beeen repeiared (to keep the machine as origianl aas possible) A minor comment. If this PDP11 is like most of the more recent models that I've worked on, then eorrr code 77 doesn't mean a PSU failur. What it meansis that the CPU hasn';t tried to write to the error display latch. This could be because the PSU hasn't deasserted DCLO (I think, maybe ACLO), it might be because the CPU isnt; clocking, or has failed trotally. Inb otehr words, to me, it would indicate I should stick some test gear on the DCLO (and ACLO?) lines, then if they're OK, strt debuggihnthe CPU board, and if they're not, dive into the PSU. > > There is, in any case, an important difference between attempting to restart > equipment that had apparently been operational only a few months earlier > before it was moved - in which case normal field-service procedures seem I disagree. It's entirely possible for somethign to break loose in shipment and cause damage when the machine is powered up again. With some PSUs desgins (I doubt the one in this machine is like that), jsut one dry joint openign up can ruin every IC in the machine. Just about every year I cart one of my HP desktop machines to the HPCC mini-conference.. And although I have been running it in my workshop the night before the first thing I do when I get it ot the meeting is test the PSU on a dummy load. I'd rather have to fix the PSU than have to fx the PSU _and replace most of the logic chips_. > perfectly adequate* - and something that had been stored for years which > might need treating as requiring the sort of investigation and testing that > would be associated with rebuilding. > > * It is the experience, and thus training, of field-service organisations > that a strip-down and rebuild procedure is more likely to introduce faults > than to locate them with any reasonably modern equipment (and, in this > context, PDP11/84s can be considered "reasonably modern"); This all changes, > of course, if power-off time has been sufficient for power-supply faults to > become likely. This has not been my experience at all. I have never had any problems dismantling and reassembling a machine. And I take my machines apart a lot more than most people would (since I demonstrate them to friends, etc and I _always_ take them apart to explain the internals). I also would claim that field service repairs and museum restorations are totally different things (if only because field service cna genrrally get any new parts they need, museums cannot). I would question that field service people are necessarily the best people to do museum restorations (as you seem to imply). There will be some that are, sure. And there will be some that just follow the CE manual and are completely helpless when they don't ahve a swap kit to hand. I don;t beleive there's any correleation between ability to repair a machine, and whether or not you work(ed) for the manufactuer a a field serviceman. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 13:04:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:04:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100529183303.GE14469@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at May 29, 10 01:33:03 pm Message-ID: > > I have brought my SWTPC 6800 system back to life that I built as a kid > in 1976. It is pretty heavily loaded with RAM cards, floppy controller, > etc. and the 8V power supply rail was never really able to hold its own. > It sits at about 6.5V now... driving many 5V regulators on the various > cards. No where near enough margin going into those. > > So, I am contemplating the following, > > 1) rebuild entire power supply using three switchers, 7.5v unit nudged > up to 8V and two 12V units to supply +/-12 on the backplane. All of > these will fit inside the original cabinet in place of the linear > supply's transformer, giant electrolytic cap, bridge rectifier, etc. > I'd mount these switchers to an aluminum plate that would fit into the > chassis and use existing mounting holes thereby not drilling any new > holes in the chassis. This would be the least "period" solution but > allow all of the original cards to run in the machine with power to spare. > > 2) add a new transformer to the existing supply just for the 8V rail. > This will also fit but requires moving the existing transformer, cap, > DC distribution board-- all efforts that require drilling new holes in > the chassis. This would be a more authentic solution since I wouldn't be > introducing power supply designs that didn't exist back then. There were > actually published mods along these lines in the day but I am little > hesitant to butcher the chassis to accomplish this. > > 3) scuttle the legacy RAM cards, most of which are 4K in size built > with 2102's... and one 16K built with 2114... and replace them with a > single homebrew RAM card using one 32Kx8 SRAM drawing almost no power > in comparison to these old cards. Definitely not period and all the > authentic RAM cards would be sitting on the shelf then but the power > supply could remain unmodified. > > Any recommendations on the best choice? Well, it's your machine, so what you do is ultimately up to you. But aas a hardware hacker, if it were my machine, I would want to keep the design as close to original as possible, That rules out (1) totally. The original machine never used SMPSUs, and yes, I do class the PSU as being part of the machine (2) has the advantage that (as you say), it was a modification done back when the machine was current. And (3) has the advantage that it's totally reversable. I think what _I_ would do is firstly make the new RAM board (t should be very easy to do, althogh I would not use any programmable logic chips in the design), and also collect the bits together to do (2). COuld the extra PSU for (2) be built on its own chassis and attached as an outrigger on the back of the machine? That would be easier to reverse, I think. Or could you make an aluminimum plate (as you syggest for (1)) to old the old and new PSU parts for (2) and fit in in the exisitng PSU area, bolted down through existing holes? Although it would trhen be a lot of work to revers the mods (involving dismantling and rebuilding the PSU), it would be reversable, with no new holes drilled. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 13:11:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:11:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: <4C02B9BE.7010802@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at May 30, 10 08:17:18 pm Message-ID: > It looks as though my next project will be to try and link the serial > port of my 4052 (which is part of the ROM expansion backpack, of all > things) to a machine on which I have internet access, or from which I > can store on media that I can read on a machine with internet access. > > It's not until I try something like this that I realise just how poorly > connected my collection is... One thing which I find extremely useful fo this sort of thing is an HP palmtop (I normally use an HP95LX). It has a serial port, a built-in terminal emulator which can capture (and send) the raw data over the serial port, and also has XMODEM (which I have never used) and kermit protocols in the ROM. Just about all my machines have at least one serial poer, I have my RS232 'hackers kit' containing a mini breakout box, null-modem adapters (which are easier to use than the breakout box if that's all that's needed) and an universal gender cable. The last is a length of 25 way IDC cable with a DB25 plug and a DB25 socket at each end (4 connecotrs in all). It has proved very useful... What I would do is arrange for the 4052 to send the listing to the serial port, and capture in on the 95LX. THen kermit that up to my linux box so I could tidy it up and upload it somwhere. Going through the palmtop has the advantage that I don;t ahve to get the linux box and the macnine I am working on next to each other (which can be difficult!). The 95LX is small enough that it can even sit on top of a PCB if there's nowehre else for it to go. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 13:14:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:14:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs... In-Reply-To: <4C02CB27.9060803@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at May 30, 10 09:31:35 pm Message-ID: > I did manage to load and save to 8050 but it was quite difficult, > because the 4052 asserts IFC when you least want it to. I keep meaning > to make up a GPIB cable without IFC. That should be quite an easty thing to do ;-) > > OTOH my PET isn't going to be the easiest machine to get stuff online > from. I have the SSE serial box, but I may as well use the serial port > on the 4052 expansion backpack... Crazy thought... Has anyone managed to porgram an HP9000/200 machine to use CBM disk drives? It shouldn't be too hard, the worst problem is the strange scondary addressing the Commodore used (IIRC the high bit is used, HP don't normally allow this). I have this crazy idea of saving form a 4052 onto an 8050 disk, reading that on an HP9000/200 and transfering it to a 3.5" LIF format disk, and then reading that on a PC... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 13:21:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:21:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C0408BE.4060104@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at May 31, 10 08:06:38 pm Message-ID: > > Some flourescents have a horrible > > spectrum with all sorts of gaps in it that is almost impossible to filter > > to anything close to daylight. > > Yes, and to add insult to injury you can't even tell by eye which of the > two most common types you're looking at (one needs a green filter and > one a magenta one, roughly, but even those rarely give proper colours). And those filters don't give as good a result as filtering tungsten filament lamps using the normal colour correction filters. I've not tried a photographic colour temperature meter with CFLs. Does it give any meaningful reuslts at all? > > > Does anyone know the exact terms of the ban? I understand that the ban > > only covers domestic ligthing, and it;s legal to sell filament lamps for > > other applications, Is it legal for me to import them myself for my own > > use (particularly id that use is not 'domestic lighting')? > > I don't know about importing, or even the exact terms of the ban, but > the only exemptions I recall seeing are for medical lamps. >From what I've read, it doesn't apply to instrument lamps (so the frontpanel bulbs for classic computers are OK), car bulbs, torch (flashlight) bulbs, projector bulbs (I hope!), and thigns like that. I wodner if it applies to photofloods? What I find crazyy is that yuu can still (legally) buy and sell candles for domestic illumination. A filament lamp produces a lot less polution (fr a given light output) than a candle... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 13:17:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:17:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at May 31, 10 12:05:07 pm Message-ID: > > Hmmm.. So the 5V line i nthe computer must still be present. And if > > there's a short on the expanison board, then that 5V must be being > > droipped somewhere. An this coupld mean a track has burnt out somewhere > > (possibly on an internal layer of the expanison board. > > > I think that since I can see no visible signs of damage to the board and > providing that one of the caps isn't shorted, there is a dead track inside > the board. If that's the case it falls squarely into the category of > "BER". i woiuld be suprised if the short was inside the board... If you can eliminate the short (so that it would be possible to power up the board), and yet there's still no 5V, I would try jumpering the 5V pin on the host connector to the Vcc pin of the nearest IC and see what happens. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 13:33:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:33:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <66FBE3BFB3524F6495F1F6C96266F360@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at May 31, 10 08:36:23 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > So quite how I repair SMPSUs when I can no longer get > > filament lamps is > > another problem... > > You'll use the next most convenient dummy load? It's not the dummy load, it's the 'series lightbulb trick'. A filament lamp as avery nice positive temerpature coefficient of resistance. You connecto one in series wtih the HV DC lione to the chopper and run the supply on minimum load. If the supply is OK, the lamp remains cold,low resistance, and does no harm. If there's a major failure. the lamp will limit the current. It probably won't save the chopper transistor, but it will prevent trraces from being blasted off the PCB, and it will certainly save my nerves. They;'re even useful when sorting out linear PSUs. My HP9826 arrived with the mains fuse blown, the LT fuse was OK. I tested te plug-in PSU module on my hom-made test rig, it was fine. Put that back in the machine and applied 20V or so ot the termianls of the smoothign capaacitor (the one strapped to the fan mounting. The machine powered and worked fine, so I knew al lthe logic was OK, All I needed to do was sort out the transformer/rectifier/capacitor circuit. Pulled the PSU again, put a new fuse in, connected a bulb in series with the mains input and powered up with the fan remvoed and the transformer secondary disconnected from thr rectifier. Lamp totally dull, sensible AC voltages on the secondary. Conencted the fan (it's a 120V AC fan running off the transformer primary in this machine), lamp a dull red, fan runs. Connect the secondary wires and try again, this time get a glow from the lamp as the capacitor charges, then abck to dull red . So everythig looks fine, and indeed the machine works perfectly when I remvoe the lamp and refit the regulator PCB. To this day I have no idea hy that fuse was blown But the point is that lamp would ahv eprotected me and the machine from more damage if there had been, say, sherted turns (or a shorted RF filter capacitor) in the transformer. > > Does anyone know the exact terms of the ban? > > 100W and 75W filament bulbs can no longer be sold for domestic=20 > applications. (Actually, I think technically retailers can no longer > restock ... they can probably keep selling old stock). I'd heard 'domestic _lightiing_ applications'. There is a significant differnece, at least for what I do :-) > Specialist bulbs are not included (so the ones in cooker hoods and ovens > and so on will still be around). Well, that's a start :-). I iwll have to parallel up 25W oven bulbs or something :-). And fromat what I've heard, it doesn't apply to anything other than mains lighting bulbs, so things like the 24V bulb for my paper tape reader don't come under it. > I've been told that only domestic use is covered, so you should still be > able to > buy a 100W or 150W filament bulb for your "commercial premises". There > is an > electrical wholesaler just down the road from where I work so I may pop > in one > day (when my stock of 100W bulbs dwindles). Hopefully muy local electrical wholesaller will keep them (it's the sort of place that doens't ask questions, they just sell you what you ask for). They have a big sign over their trade counter which basically says it's the customer's responsibilty to comply with all the regulations. The sort of place I like :-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 14:26:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 20:26:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <4C044F30.6020904@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 1, 10 01:07:12 am Message-ID: > What I did was replace the silicon rectifier diodes with Schottky > diodes, which have a much lower voltage drop. Problem solved. Assuming > your existing transformer can actually produce enough current from the > secondary, that might be enough for you too. It would be worth finding out just where the voltage is dropping (between the lightly-loaded and fully-loaded configurations). If the RMS AC voltage from the transformer secondary is going down significantly, then I would suggest that the transformer is being overloaded,and I wouldmn't try just fiddling with the rectifiers or smoothing capacitors. Nor would I try an external boost transoformer in this case. You don;t want to burn out the computer's mains transformer. On the other hand, if the secondary voltage is still OK, then I would try using schottky rectifiers and/or increasing the smoothing capacitance (parallel up some more large electrolytics). -tony From rivie at ridgenet.net Tue Jun 1 14:38:14 2010 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 12:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Okay, that tends to limit its usefulness... Does it have the equivelant of > an /etc/hosts file, or will it let you punch in an IP address on your own > network? As I understand it, the official way to get files over there involves emailing to them yourself and looking at the attachments. Me, I use this app on my iPhone: http://www.digidna.net/products/fileapp I've got plenty of PDFs stored on my iPhone and it does an OK job of reading at them as long as they aren't too big. So far, the only one that's given me any real grief is the 128MB PDF file you get bundled with "The Russian Context". FileApp provides a server you can push files to over the net, or you can use the companion program http://www.digidna.net/products/diskaid that lets you transfer files over the USB kind of like a disk drive. DiskAid also lets you get at the directory on the iPhone in which the camera stores its pictures. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jun 1 14:41:59 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 12:41:59 -0700 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: Ben Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 8:50 PM > I think the Greeks used the letters of the alphabet as well for numbers. > But who used numbers over a 100 when you think about it. Herdsmen, for example, unless you don't believe that more than 100 cattle, sheep, or horses were ever gathered in one place. Ships. Members of an army. Members of a tribe (see, for a non-Greek example, the numbering of the descendants of Jacob in a classic text). Alfred Kroeber, when studying Ishi, believed that the Yahi (Ishi's branch of the Yana) had no large numbers for a long time--then came upon Ishi counting the dollars he had saved from his pay at the museum where he was housed in Berkeley. Ishi simply didn't see any reason to count in the abstract and got bored; when counting things important to him personally, he had vocabulary to do the job. Another linguistic truism: There has been no such thing as a "primitive language" since early in the evolution of modern humans. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 1 14:42:39 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 12:42:39 -0700 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> On 06/01/2010 09:55 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I hope that when useful and affordable LED versions become available, > this also won't be a problem, but I'm not holding my breath. > LEDs have even worse problems with heat dissipation than CFLs. That's one of the big reasons they haven't yet made inroads into replacement of common incandescents. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 1 14:52:12 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 12:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Its Wifi is quite useable, and I don't think there'd be any problem using > it on one's home network (or things would be REALLY mucked up). But I > want to use it the same way you do, and where I do most of my work *there > is no Wifi network*. I need the PDFs stored locally. GoodReader will > supposedly do that, and it's only 99 cents - but I think it's stupid to be > so aggressive about telling the consumer just how you will use the device. > The fact that GoodReader exists should be a clear message that people are > not interested in being locked into the use cases written by Apple > marketers. Ugh... I forgot about the Wifi part... I can't plug in a CAT5 cable, can I. :-( I agree there is no use for how they treat the consumers, and I don't like how if I want to write software for a computer I own, I have to pay an annual fee for the "privillege". > When I dropped my G4 AlBook , I bought another one on CraigsList for > $250. I did make one mistake: the new one is a 1.25GHz model, and I > didn't realize until after the fact that it doesn't have the improved > trackpad that lets you scroll with two fingers. I really like that > feature - but I'm managing to live without it. I don't know what I'm > going to do when my PPC-based products finally fail, but I'll burn that > bridge when I come to it. I run PhotoShop on my dual-proc PowerMac, and I > think of it as a *feature* that I have time to go get a beer while it > starts up. :-) -- Ian I've actually started keeping an eye out for used systems, so I at least have an idea of what the prices are like in case my system dies before I can replace it. As it stands, even a Mac Mini might be an upgrade for me. If I'm doing heavy editing, with lots of work with Plugins, I often read a book while the plugins render. Zane From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jun 1 14:53:49 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 12:53:49 -0700 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: From: Liam Proven Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 6:22 AM > The Romans are quite recent, you know. Only a couple of thousand years > ago. Human societies of people identical to us have been around for > about 40,000 years. The oldest buildings known so far are some 12,000 > years ago - about 5 times longer before ancient Rome than Rome was > before us. We have datable inscriptions in early forms of Latin dating into the 6th century BCE; the infamous 7th century BCE fibula from Praeneste is apparently a 19th century CE forgery by university students. So push the Romans and their cousins back at least another 1000, to be settled and worrying about writing. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe I'm sure you know my opinion of Wikipedia. > We have written records from Pharoaonic Egypt from circa 7000-8000 > years ago, which is just one of the more fun bits of evidence that the > young-Earth Creationists are a bunch of deranged loonies. They would argue that (a) your dating is in error, or (b) God made it look like things are that old--see (a). > The Phaistos Disk shows that there was *print* long before ancient Rome. Really? Print? Or simply engraved punches? > One or two hundred thousand years before the Cro-Magnon, the ancestors > of the Europeans and most of the us, the Neanderthals had societies > right across the world, hunting mammoths and so on. They left little > trace other than fossils, so we know very little about them, but they > had a human society that spread across Eurasia about a hundred times > longer ago than ancient Rome. Whether we dub early modern humans "Cro-Magnon" or not, it's pretty clear that they are the ancestors (modulo some Neanderthal "borrowings") of everyone of us. And it's not at all clear that "a human society" existed in the time frame that you posit. "Human societies", yes, but not a single society. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 15:24:45 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:24:45 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why all this discussion about the iPad? For the stated purpose (reading PDFs) would not a similar-form-factor _designed specifically for that purpose_ serve much better? By now there are a bunch of "e-readers" with e-ink displays - which one of those is currently best for scanned PDFs (which is what in this context is the primary application!)? I know that many of the current ones have (fairly) low pixel density (thus bad for scanned text even if adequate for OCR'd documents) and many suffer from bad PDF support; but I'd expect that at this stage _someone_ has made one that is of a good size with high resolution. At least most of these now support slapping an SD card full of files into them, right? This way you're not tied to a network (wireless or wired). -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 1 15:19:44 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 21:19:44 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > It's not the dummy load, it's the 'series lightbulb trick'. OK. A "rough service" bulb is what you want. That's a filament light bulb to you and me but you can drop it a few more times before it becomes a candidate for immediate landfill. A quick check online suggests that instead of ~40p you'll end up paying ~?2 but if you only use it for servicing gear (and you're not too clumsy) then I presume the slight increase in cost probably isn't a big deal. > I'd heard 'domestic _lightiing_ applications'. There is a significant > differnece, at least for what I do :-) What they sell them for and what you do with them are different things. AFAIK the legislation doesn't stop you buying a carpet and using it as wallpaper (or buying a rough service bulb intended to light up the local mechanic's workshop and then sticking it in a lampholder at home). > Hopefully muy local electrical wholesaller will keep them (it's the > sort of place that doens't ask questions, they just sell you what you > ask for). I don't think it even matters if you walk in and say "I want a rough service bulb and I'm going to take it home, stick it in a domestic lampholder and read a schematic by it all night long". It's not even theoretically illegal for them to sell it to you under those circumstances or for you to purchase it and use it under those circumstances. As long as the box holds no more than two bulbs and the box says "not for domestic use" (or some similar restrictions) they can sell them and you can buy them all day long. How long they'll be commercially available depends (I presume) on how long commercial premises keep needing them (which I presume depends on how long it takes for a viable LED based lamp to appear at a sensible price). At that point you'll need to design a suitable replacement; but I wouldn't worry just yet. (Hey, leaded solder is still easily available). Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 1 15:33:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 16:33:55 -0400 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> References: , <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> On 6/1/10 3:42 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 06/01/2010 09:55 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I hope that when useful and affordable LED versions become available, >> this also won't be a problem, but I'm not holding my breath. >> > LEDs have even worse problems with heat dissipation than CFLs. That's > one of the big reasons they haven't yet made inroads into replacement of > common incandescents. I dunno, the Home Depot (large consumer-grade hardware store chain in the US), as of my trip there yesterday, carries quite a wide variety of LED-based incandescent replacements. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 1 15:34:40 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 13:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" boot disk for Disk Jockey 2D/B Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone here has an 8-inch CP/M disk set for use with a ThinkerToys Disk Jockey 2D/B. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 15:35:53 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 16:35:53 -0400 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> References: , <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C056F29.4070604@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I dunno, the Home Depot (large consumer-grade hardware store chain in > the US), as of my trip there yesterday, carries quite a wide variety of > LED-based incandescent replacements. Even leaving aside the cars nowadays that have LED headlamps, and my projection TV which uses a small array of LEDs of each of the tricolors to provide the light for projection. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 15:37:49 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:37:49 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > A quick check online suggests that instead of ~40p you'll end > up paying ~?2 but if you only use it for servicing gear (and > you're not too clumsy) then I presume the slight increase in > cost probably isn't a big deal. Also, rough service bulbs (they are used on ships and railroad applications) tend to last quite a lot longer. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jun 1 15:37:13 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 13:37:13 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I checked out the Nook from Barnes & Noble, and it didn't impress me with its PDF rendering. Of course, I can't check out a Kindle since they don't have a store, but that device doesn't have an SD slot (the Nook does). Some of the devices demo'ed at CES sound interesting, and since I'm not in a burning-down-the-house hurry I'll just wait to see which of them actually makes it into the world. That way I don't have to deal with the [deleted for reasons of good taste] at the Apple Store. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joachim Thiemann [joachim.thiemann at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 1:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad Why all this discussion about the iPad? For the stated purpose (reading PDFs) would not a similar-form-factor _designed specifically for that purpose_ serve much better? By now there are a bunch of "e-readers" with e-ink displays - which one of those is currently best for scanned PDFs (which is what in this context is the primary application!)? I know that many of the current ones have (fairly) low pixel density (thus bad for scanned text even if adequate for OCR'd documents) and many suffer from bad PDF support; but I'd expect that at this stage _someone_ has made one that is of a good size with high resolution. At least most of these now support slapping an SD card full of files into them, right? This way you're not tied to a network (wireless or wired). -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 15:43:50 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:43:50 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > At that point you'll need to design a suitable replacement; but I > wouldn't > worry just yet. (Hey, leaded solder is still easily available). For that matter, 100+ year old *new-in-wrapping* incandescent bulbs are still showing up quite regularly. A friend, a major light bulb collector, said there are tons of turn of the century bulbs available, many never used. They are nowhere near rare, at least for Edison based ones. Same thing is true about TTL chips or Germanium transistors. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 15:44:43 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:44:43 -0400 Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > i woiuld be suprised if the short was inside the board... It's rare, but I've seen it. We had the first run of 6-layer COMBOARDs come back with a slight misalignment of, IIRC, the Vcc layer to the vias. They tried to run huge amounts of current through unpopulated boards to "burn out" the shorts just so they wouldn't have to wait weeks for the replacements to arrive (and delay the firmware development team as they waited for boards to verify their code on), but in the end, zero working boards made it through the process. With a 2-layer board, I'd say that is a much less likely scenario. Caps, though, short all the time. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 1 15:45:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 13:45:12 -0700 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> References: , <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com>, <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C050EE8.19050.EBAF24@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2010 at 16:33, Dave McGuire wrote: > I dunno, the Home Depot (large consumer-grade hardware store chain > in > the US), as of my trip there yesterday, carries quite a wide variety > of LED-based incandescent replacements. Do they fudge the "equivalent illumination" rating like the CFLs do or can I get a true replacement LED for my 150W recessed floods? --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 1 15:52:58 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 13:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Why all this discussion about the iPad? For the stated purpose > (reading PDFs) would not a similar-form-factor _designed specifically > for that purpose_ serve much better? By now there are a bunch of > "e-readers" with e-ink displays - which one of those is currently best > for scanned PDFs (which is what in this context is the primary > application!)? I've tried a Sony eBook Reader, and while it's okay for ebooks, I was less than impressed with it for PDF's. I would expect simular results from other such products due to the design of the display. Zane From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 1 15:58:02 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 21:58:02 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C05745A.30406@philpem.me.uk> On 29/05/10 18:07, Tony Duell wrote: > And if you ever try to calibrate an oven thermostat you will find those > figures bear absolutely no relationship to any normal temperature scale. I've got a "Cookworks" mini-oven (which came from Argos, natch). At the 250C setting, it heated up to almost 300C before the bimetal thermostat tripped. 525 seconds from room temperature (25C or so) to 300C, for a thermal gradient of 1.75 Celsius per second. Put it this way: it makes a good SMD soldering oven (google for Kenneth Maxon's article on the subject in the Seattle Robotics Society newsletter, "Encoder")... One of these days I'll put a proper temperature control on it. And add some thermal insulation to the door and handle section -- it gets bloody hot! Might improve the thermal gradient a bit (though it really only needs to be ~1C/sec once the oven cavity is warm). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 1 16:05:31 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 14:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I'm not in a hurry either. It was an idea that popped into my head, and I wanted to now how well it would work. While it would be nice to use a device of its formfactor for this purpose, this thread has pretty much convinced me against this. I'll be looking into setting up either the SGI O2, or a Sun Workstation for this purpose assuming my remaining SVGA CRT still works. If not I might start looking locally for a used LCD (I'm likely going to do that anyway as I could use one or two). Zane On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Ian King wrote: > I checked out the Nook from Barnes & Noble, and it didn't impress me with > its PDF rendering. Of course, I can't check out a Kindle since they don't > have a store, but that device doesn't have an SD slot (the Nook does). > Some of the devices demo'ed at CES sound interesting, and since I'm not in > a burning-down-the-house hurry I'll just wait to see which of them > actually makes it into the world. That way I don't have to deal with the > [deleted for reasons of good taste] at the Apple Store. -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joachim Thiemann [joachim.thiemann at gmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 1:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad > > Why all this discussion about the iPad? For the stated purpose > (reading PDFs) would not a similar-form-factor _designed specifically > for that purpose_ serve much better? By now there are a bunch of > "e-readers" with e-ink displays - which one of those is currently best > for scanned PDFs (which is what in this context is the primary > application!)? > > I know that many of the current ones have (fairly) low pixel density > (thus bad for scanned text even if adequate for OCR'd documents) and > many suffer from bad PDF support; but I'd expect that at this stage > _someone_ has made one that is of a good size with high resolution. > > At least most of these now support slapping an SD card full of files > into them, right? This way you're not tied to a network (wireless or > wired). > > -- > Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 1 16:09:19 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 17:09:19 -0400 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C050EE8.19050.EBAF24@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com>, <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> <4C050EE8.19050.EBAF24@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C0576FF.6060205@neurotica.com> On 6/1/10 4:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I dunno, the Home Depot (large consumer-grade hardware store chain >> in >> the US), as of my trip there yesterday, carries quite a wide variety >> of LED-based incandescent replacements. > > Do they fudge the "equivalent illumination" rating like the CFLs do > or can I get a true replacement LED for my 150W recessed floods? No clue, I didn't look closely. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jun 1 16:03:44 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:03:44 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0575B0.5050800@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/06/2010 19:21, Tony Duell wrote: > I've not tried a photographic colour temperature meter with CFLs. Does it > give any meaningful reuslts at all? I haven't either, but I'd not trust the result because unless it's a CFL made specially to have a "daylight" spectrum, the result won't tell you much. Just like normal striplights. >>From what I've read, it doesn't apply to instrument lamps (so the > frontpanel bulbs for classic computers are OK), car bulbs, torch > (flashlight) bulbs, projector bulbs (I hope!), and thigns like that. > > I wodner if it applies to photofloods? Dunno. I don't think so, because although it applies to the 150W ES bulbs I use for my monolight modelling lamps :-( I can still get higher-power photofloods that fit. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jun 1 16:10:36 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:10:36 +0100 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: <4C055989.80205@neurotica.com> References: <5d1701cb01bb$acc95960$065c0c20$@machm.org> <4C055989.80205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C05774C.6090005@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/06/2010 20:03, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/1/10 2:53 PM, Tony Eros wrote: >> I have an iPad. There's a lot I like about the device in general, but it >> does not do a particularly good job of working with PDFs. Adobe does not >> provide a reader (not surprising, given their current feud with Apple) and >> the 3rd party apps are clunky at best. Little support for bookmarks, wonky >> page navigation. It's a terrific form factor for reviewing documentation, >> but I would currently give it a "D" as a tool for reading PDFs. > > I suggest giving it some time, as it's a brand-new device. Look at > how many software deficiencies the iPhone had when it first hit the > streets; nearly all of them have been resolved. Every show-stopper that > kept me from moving to an iPhone went away one-by-one over a year or two. Except for the awful (lack of) Bluetooth support. But like Roger, I use fileapp and it works well for what I need. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 1 16:17:30 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 14:17:30 -0700 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> References: , <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C0578EA.2090400@brouhaha.com> On 06/01/2010 01:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I dunno, the Home Depot (large consumer-grade hardware store chain in > the US), as of my trip there yesterday, carries quite a wide variety of > LED-based incandescent replacements. > Sure, but they all either either replacements for low-wattage incandescents, or they are very expensive replacements for higher-wattage (60W and up) incandescents. The shelf for inexpensive 60W replacements is empty, and the reason is that it is currently very difficult to engineer such a product, and expensive to manufacture it. One of the problems is that while LEDs are more efficient at producing visible light than incandescents, and thus produce less heat at a given light output, the heat produced by the LED isn't radiated, while much of the heat produced by the incandescent is. This results in the LED getting hotter than the incandescent bulb. While that heat doesn't damage the incandescent, it is the primary failure mode of the LED. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 16:38:55 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 17:38:55 -0400 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0578EA.2090400@brouhaha.com> References: , <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> <4C0578EA.2090400@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C057DEF.3030807@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > One of the problems is that while LEDs are more efficient at producing > visible light than incandescents, and thus produce less heat at a given > light output, the heat produced by the LED isn't radiated, while much of > the heat produced by the incandescent is. This results in the LED > getting hotter than the incandescent bulb. While that heat doesn't > damage the incandescent, it is the primary failure mode of the LED. There must be a way to engineer it so that the fixture to which the LED "bulb" is attached acts as a heatsink for the LEDs. Peace... Sridhar From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 16:53:42 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:53:42 -0500 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C057DEF.3030807@gmail.com> References: , <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, , <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com>, <4C0578EA.2090400@brouhaha.com>, <4C057DEF.3030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 17:38:55 -0400 > From: ploopster at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > CC: eric at brouhaha.com > > Eric Smith wrote: > > One of the problems is that while LEDs are more efficient at producing > > visible light than incandescents, and thus produce less heat at a given > > light output, the heat produced by the LED isn't radiated, while much of > > the heat produced by the incandescent is. This results in the LED > > getting hotter than the incandescent bulb. While that heat doesn't > > damage the incandescent, it is the primary failure mode of the LED. > > There must be a way to engineer it so that the fixture to which the LED > "bulb" is attached acts as a heatsink for the LEDs. > > Peace... Sridhar In fact, the Luxeon (and all other high power LEDs) do have an integral heatsink. Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 1 16:56:40 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 14:56:40 -0700 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C057DEF.3030807@gmail.com> References: , <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> <4C0578EA.2090400@brouhaha.com> <4C057DEF.3030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C058218.3070604@brouhaha.com> On 06/01/2010 02:38 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > There must be a way to engineer it so that the fixture to which the > LED "bulb" is attached acts as a heatsink for the LEDs. Certainly that's how it's done. But when you screw it into an enclosed base-up fixture, to where is that heatsink going to dissipate the heat? That's a fundamental problem with both CFLs and LEDs, leading to significantly shortened lifetimes for both, and no one has a good solution yet. Eric From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 1 17:43:41 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 15:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: good news on P112 parts Message-ID: I took a casual survey of parts needed for making a new run of P112 kits. Good news! The hardest parts to source, the SuperIO chip, processor chip and RS232 drivers are all still currently manufactured and the prices aren't bad. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 17:47:52 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 15:47:52 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <20100529183303.GE14469@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at May 29, 10 01:33:03 pm, Message-ID: > > > > 3) scuttle the legacy RAM cards, most of which are 4K in size built > > with 2102's... and one 16K built with 2114... and replace them with a > > single homebrew RAM card using one 32Kx8 SRAM drawing almost no power > > in comparison to these old cards. Definitely not period and all the > > authentic RAM cards would be sitting on the shelf then but the power > > supply could remain unmodified. > > > > Any recommendations on the best choice? > Hi I'd go with at least a 128KX8 SRAM or 512KX8. They are about the same price and you can choose to bank them or just tie them off. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 1 18:28:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 16:28:52 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <20100529183303.GE14469@n0jcf.net>, , Message-ID: <4C053544.26158.181855C@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2010 at 15:47, dwight elvey wrote: > > > 3) scuttle the legacy RAM cards, most of which are 4K in size > > > built with 2102's... and one 16K built with 2114... and replace > > > them with a single homebrew RAM card using one 32Kx8 SRAM drawing > > > almost no power in comparison to these old cards. Definitely not > > > period and all the authentic RAM cards would be sitting on the > > > shelf then but the power supply could remain unmodified. > > > > > > Any recommendations on the best choice? > > > I'd go with at least a 128KX8 SRAM or 512KX8. > They are about the same price and you can choose to > bank them or just tie them off. If you'd want to keep the 2102 cards, why not substitute 91L02s (AMD) which drink a lot less power? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 1 18:58:46 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 16:58:46 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <4C053544.26158.181855C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20100529183303.GE14469@n0jcf.net>, , <4C053544.26158.181855C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C059EB6.8040001@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you'd want to keep the 2102 cards, why not substitute 91L02s (AMD) > which drink a lot less power? > They're a lot harder to find these days. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 1 19:13:43 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 18:13:43 -0600 Subject: good news on P112 parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C05A237.4000808@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > > I took a casual survey of parts needed for making a new run of P112 > kits. Good news! The hardest parts to source, the SuperIO chip, > processor chip and RS232 drivers are all still currently manufactured > and the prices aren't bad. > > Just what processor is in the P112 kit? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 1 19:25:38 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 18:25:38 -0600 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: I tend not to count things, I need 1 or a few or I have way too much of that. > Another linguistic truism: There has been no such thing as a "primitive > language" since early in the evolution of modern humans. But modern language must have roots from somewhere in the deep past. I have read that domestication of the horse,around the black sea may have been on of the first wide spread use of a language to convey ideas at the time. ( No talk of Atlantis here ). From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 1 19:50:15 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 17:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: good news on P112 parts In-Reply-To: <4C05A237.4000808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C05A237.4000808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Ben wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> >> I took a casual survey of parts needed for making a new run of P112 >> kits. Good news! The hardest parts to source, the SuperIO chip, >> processor chip and RS232 drivers are all still currently manufactured >> and the prices aren't bad. >> >> > Just what processor is in the P112 kit? It's a Z180 with extra goodies. Z8018216FSC is the exact part number. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jun 1 19:51:03 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 17:51:03 -0700 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: Ben Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 5:26 PM > Rich Alderson wrote: > I tend not to count things, I need 1 or a few or I have way too much of > that. Please have more care with the placement of new material. *You* said that, not I. >> Another linguistic truism: There has been no such thing as a "primitive >> language" since early in the evolution of modern humans. > But modern language must have roots from somewhere in the deep past. Yes, but do you understand how long humans have been using language? At least 50,000 years, and probably more than 200,000. It's even likely that Australopithecines had language. > I have read that domestication of the horse,around the black sea > may have been on of the first wide spread use of a language to convey > ideas at the time. Oh, that's simply nonsense, and I doubt that you read that. (You may have misunderstood something you read to say that, I'll grant.) The horse was domesticated roughly 7,500 years ago, or anywhere from 7 to 25 times more recently than language in humans. Are you refering to _The Horse, the Wheel, and Language_? The author is an archaeological anthropologist, and both his linguistics and his use of Zoroastrian mythology is shaky (to be kind). I can only hope that the archaeology holds up better than the other two; I'm not qualified to judge its merits (only one arch. anthro. course in college). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 1 21:03:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100601190201.I91339@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Ben wrote: > But modern language must have roots from somewhere in the deep past. > I have read that domestication of the horse,around the black sea > may have been on of the first wide spread use of a language to convey > ideas at the time. > ( No talk of Atlantis here ). I've heard that VALTREP was the predecessor. (Sorry, Dan. I just couldn't resist) From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jun 1 21:14:49 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:14:49 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C05BE99.9010308@verizon.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've tried a Sony eBook Reader, and while it's okay for ebooks, I was less > than impressed with it for PDF's. I would expect simular results from > other > such products due to the design of the display. I thought the Sony reader was pretty much crap. Its interface is slow, and the machine is obviously underpowered for what it needs to do. Imagine pushing a button, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting for something to happen -- it's one of these things where you push it again because you think it didn't register the first time. Then it queues the push and activates the next press of the button. The screen, for grayscale, is fairly readable, easy on the eyes, and I'm sure battery life is impressive. Weight seemed ok. While I didn't play with it extensively, it seems to be yet another walled garden approach. You have to have the right firmware on it, the matching desktop software, and DRM abound to make sure these criminal customers pay up. If I purchased one, I'd return it pretty quickly. Keith From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 1 21:23:24 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 19:23:24 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: <4C05BE99.9010308@verizon.net> References: <4C05BE99.9010308@verizon.net> Message-ID: At 10:14 PM -0400 6/1/10, Keith wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>I've tried a Sony eBook Reader, and while it's okay for ebooks, I was less >>than impressed with it for PDF's. I would expect simular results from other >>such products due to the design of the display. > >I thought the Sony reader was pretty much crap. Its interface is >slow, and the machine is obviously underpowered for what it needs to >do. Imagine pushing a button, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting >for something to happen -- it's one of these things where you push >it again because you think it didn't register the first time. Then >it queues the push and activates the next press of the button. > >The screen, for grayscale, is fairly readable, easy on the eyes, and >I'm sure battery life is impressive. Weight seemed ok. > >While I didn't play with it extensively, it seems to be yet another >walled garden approach. You have to have the right firmware on it, >the matching desktop software, and DRM abound to make sure these >criminal customers pay up. > >If I purchased one, I'd return it pretty quickly. > >Keith I was under the impression that the slowness in turning pages was due to the design of the display rather than the speed of the processor. I'm still looking for something to replace my Sony Clie as an eBook reader, and have yet to find anything. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 1 21:47:51 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 20:47:51 -0600 Subject: (beerp) returns t for PLATO@50 tomorrow? Message-ID: Hey folks, I'll be flying into San Jose tomorrow for the PLATO @ 50 presentation at the Computer History Museum. My flight gets into San Jose around 3:55 PM, but the presentation at CHM doesn't start until 7 PM. I wasn't planning on renting a car, so my mobility will be limited. However, it would be great to meet up with folks for beer and/or dinner before the PLATO presentation. I'll be checking my email until about 10 AM MDT tomorrow (9 AM PDT). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jun 1 22:26:27 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 23:26:27 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: <4C05BE99.9010308@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C05CF63.2030601@verizon.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I was under the impression that the slowness in turning pages was due to > the design of the display rather than the speed of the processor. I'm > still looking for something to replace my Sony Clie as an eBook reader, > and have yet to find anything. Some of the slowness is the display. But you can tell the difference between a screen redraw/paint and a "I'm loading something" wait. The screen refresh time is horrible, but it's really the time when it's fetching the data, from ram/flash (not transferring data from online) which is annoying. It's really the slowness of the interface that I see as the largest problem. Keith From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 1 22:46:11 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 21:46:11 -0600 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C05D403.4000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: > Oh, that's simply nonsense, and I doubt that you read that. (You may have > misunderstood something you read to say that, I'll grant.) The horse was > domesticated roughly 7,500 years ago, or anywhere from 7 to 25 times more > recently than language in humans. I think that was about 10k to 15k BP. I don't have the the original doc's to prove on way or the other as I read this third hand. I do know it was historical fiction, but the facts seem reasonable in context. Piers Anthony was the writer. The time period was the just after last melting of the great ice sheets in Europe, thus any record would have been lost as seas and lakes changed water levels. The other factor is soft materials like rope or leather needed for hard evidence, does not survive over time. The one factor is that prehistoric man, was smarter in some ways than we think.The hard part is figuring out why they died out when we have so little knowledge of what the newer version of man had improved over time. > Are you refering to _The Horse, the Wheel, and Language_? The author is > an archaeological anthropologist, and both his linguistics and his use of > Zoroastrian mythology is shaky (to be kind). I can only hope that the > archaeology holds up better than the other two; I'm not qualified to judge > its merits (only one arch. anthro. course in college). > A proper report lets you judge one way or the other. > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.PDPplanet.org/ > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 1 22:48:33 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 21:48:33 -0600 Subject: good news on P112 parts In-Reply-To: References: <4C05A237.4000808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C05D491.3060905@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: >> Just what processor is in the P112 kit? > > It's a Z180 with extra goodies. Z8018216FSC is the exact part number. What is needed to run CP/M? Ben. From pinball at telus.net Tue Jun 1 01:16:35 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 23:16:35 -0700 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4C04A5C3.3040006@telus.net> CSquared wrote: > Ben wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> >>> Can anyone tell me the approximate transistor count of the 6809? >>> >>> -Dave >>> >> Well for a ballpark figure I would double the 6800 transistor count. >> 2x microcode rom & 2x registers. >> >> http://www.techheap.com/processors/6809/the_6809.pdf >> >> I get about 40K transistors as ball park figure. >> Ben. >> > Thanks for that link; I love reading stuff like that. I'll admit I've > not diligently researched all the possibilities, but of all the > 8-bitters I've ever encountered, the 6809 is definitely my favorite. > The only problem I have with that pdf file is, with my Foxit reader > anyway, all the pictures are blank. I need to go try it with Adobe to > see if that matters. Any one else have that problem? > Later, > Charlie C. > > Blank as well on Preview under OSX 10.6 - first time I've ever seen that. Perhaps the original file is defective in some way... John :-#(# From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jun 1 09:20:49 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 09:20:49 -0500 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100531225048.46FA4BA568C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100531225048.46FA4BA568C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> Good suggestion Tim and thanks to others for their suggestions too. I'll give this a try and see how it pans out. I can sure test the theory with a VARIAC. The original transformer is rated at 7.25V @ 10A so I think the current capability is sufficient-- just too low of a secondary voltage. On Monday (05/31/2010 at 06:50PM -0400), Tim Shoppa wrote: > Probably the lowest effort option also makes the fewest changes to the > original: A small external "boost" autotransformer to give maybe 10 or 15% > extra headroom. > > This could be done without using a big transformer. What you do is use > a say 20VAC 3A transformer secondary in series with the primary, wired > to that you end up with 140VAC with 120VAC in. This can use a physically > much smaller transformer than a 140VAC 3A isolation transformer. > > I'm guessing the AC current at the input to the power supply is circa a > very few amps or so (why I suggest a 20VAC 3A unit above). > > Tim. -- Chris Elmquist From info at mewgull.com Tue Jun 1 12:30:32 2010 From: info at mewgull.com (Mewgull Associates Limited) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 18:30:32 +0100 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 Jun 2010, at 18:22, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > You're not alone. I *NEED* a new Mac Pro. This isn't simply a want, I need > it for Adobe Photoshop, and because bits of my PowerMac are starting to die > (onboard NIC and Optical Drive so far). I refuse to buy a model that is 15+ > months old! Most models get two updates in that period of time. :-( > Look here for the clue: http://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#MacBook_Pro I'm waiting for the iPhone to come out so I can buy a cheaper old model. Richard From waltsfo at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 13:08:06 2010 From: waltsfo at gmail.com (walter park) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 11:08:06 -0700 Subject: 6809 transistor count -- a better PDF ! Message-ID: Also had trouble reading the images with Evince. Here's a copy I could read: The *BYTE* 6809 Articles (Jan?February 1979) http://tlindner.macmess.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/byte_6809_articles.pdf 30. Re: 6809 transistor count? (CSquared) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 30 > Date: Mon, 31 May 2010 18:23:07 -0500 > From: CSquared > Subject: Re: 6809 transistor count? > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > > I get about 40K transistors as ball park figure. > > Ben. > > > Thanks for that link; I love reading stuff like that. I'll admit I've > not diligently researched all the possibilities, but of all the > 8-bitters I've ever encountered, the 6809 is definitely my favorite. > The only problem I have with that pdf file is, with my Foxit reader > anyway, all the pictures are blank. I need to go try it with Adobe to > see if that matters. Any one else have that problem? > Later, > Charlie C. > > > > End of cctech Digest, Vol 82, Issue 1 > ************************************* > From madodel at ptd.net Tue Jun 1 13:21:52 2010 From: madodel at ptd.net (Mark Dodel) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 14:21:52 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad Message-ID: <1275416512.586004promail.ptd.net> > Okay, I know the iPad is totally OT, but here is my question, does > anyone on this list have one, I have a wifi only iPad. Standard it uses Safari to read pdfs directly from the web. You can buy pdf reader apps though. > and have you tried using it for reading > PDF's off of Bitsavers? How practical is this? > It should be fine for reading pdf's. There are several apps for pdf viewing, but I'm not sure what they add. I have never used it for reading PDF's off of Bitsavers, but then I think I've only looked at one pdf in the month or so I have had it. OK I just tried and it worked. I was able to browse bitsavers.org and view a pdf. Just a very basic reader though. Mark > I'm finally making real progress at getting my computer "lab" setup > with the systems I plan to keep, and don't have a way to read manuals > out there. Currently the only computer that doesn't have a VT420 > attached is the Commodore 64. Guess I should get the SGI o2 or > Sunblade 1000 hooked up... > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > -- Mark Dodel sent by ibisMail on my Apple iPad! From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jun 1 15:35:04 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 13:35:04 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C056EF8.1080507@jwsss.com> > >> What I did was replace the silicon rectifier diodes with Schottky >> diodes, which have a much lower voltage drop. Problem solved. Assuming >> your existing transformer can actually produce enough current from the >> secondary, that might be enough for you too. >> > It would be worth finding out just where the voltage is dropping (between > the lightly-loaded and fully-loaded configurations). If the RMS AC voltage > from the transformer secondary is going down significantly, then I would > suggest that the transformer is being overloaded,and I wouldmn't try just > fiddling with the rectifiers or smoothing capacitors. Nor would I try an > external boost transoformer in this case. You don;t want to burn out the > computer's mains transformer. > > On the other hand, if the secondary voltage is still OK, then I would try > using schottky rectifiers and/or increasing the smoothing capacitance > (parallel up some more large electrolytics). > > -tony > > > One of my buddies who worked on the Microdata systems, 800's and 1600's as an FE would not only find an locate problems (in the field), but if necessary change design elements to fix things. In the day, there were so many problems that had workarounds in the design that this was a valid thing to do. RTL and early TTL was all over the place, and if one were doing component replacement in the field, ad really good FE would just change things to work. That said, I would retain what i could with an artifact that I was planning to operate. However problems with power have the potential to not only damage the power supply if it malfunctions, but destroy the entire unit. I would use a modern power supply and retain the original, restored and functional somewhere for future sale or deacquisition (trade). Then the unit would at least not be subjected to some of the bad things that happen if power is not functional. Fixing the design as tony says is another option, but might be more difficult to back out than just replacing the entire thing, should you want to restore it to pristine condition. Jim From madodel at ptd.net Tue Jun 1 15:54:30 2010 From: madodel at ptd.net (Mark Dodel) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 16:54:30 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad Message-ID: <1275425670.447428promail.ptd.net> > Why all this discussion about the iPad? For the stated purpose > (reading PDFs) would not a similar-form-factor _designed specifically > for that purpose_ serve much better? By now there are a bunch of > "e-readers" with e-ink displays - which one of those is currently best > for scanned PDFs (which is what in this context is the primary > application!)? > > I know that many of the current ones have (fairly) low pixel density > (thus bad for scanned text even if adequate for OCR'd documents) and > many suffer from bad PDF support; but I'd expect that at this stage > _someone_ has made one that is of a good size with high resolution. > > At least most of these now support slapping an SD card full of files > into them, right? This way you're not tied to a network (wireless or > wired). While the iPad doesn't have an SD slot there is an adapter from Apple that acts as an SD card reader and USB connecter. Next time I'm at the Apple store I plan to pick one up. Mark -- Mark Dodel sent by ibisMail on my Apple iPad! From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue Jun 1 16:56:49 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 16:56:49 -0500 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0578EA.2090400@brouhaha.com> References: <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> <4C0578EA.2090400@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I have used warm white LEDs to replace the burnt out incandescent light bar of my SGI octane :) On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 06/01/2010 01:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> I dunno, the Home Depot (large consumer-grade hardware store chain in >> the US), as of my trip there yesterday, carries quite a wide variety of >> LED-based incandescent replacements. >> >> > Sure, but they all either either replacements for low-wattage > incandescents, or they are very expensive replacements for higher-wattage > (60W and up) incandescents. The shelf for inexpensive 60W replacements is > empty, and the reason is that it is currently very difficult to engineer > such a product, and expensive to manufacture it. > > One of the problems is that while LEDs are more efficient at producing > visible light than incandescents, and thus produce less heat at a given > light output, the heat produced by the LED isn't radiated, while much of the > heat produced by the incandescent is. This results in the LED getting > hotter than the incandescent bulb. While that heat doesn't damage the > incandescent, it is the primary failure mode of the LED. > > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Jun 1 20:45:40 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 20:45:40 -0500 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> <4C051158.10201@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C05B7C4.8070900@tx.rr.com> Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Keith M wrote: >> Adobe Reader 9 shows no pictures as well. >> > > The picture are there in this copy: > > http://tlindner.macmess.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/byte_6809_articles.pdf > Ah yes, marvelous! Thanks. Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Jun 1 21:35:03 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 21:35:03 -0500 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C04A5C3.3040006@telus.net> References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> <4C04A5C3.3040006@telus.net> Message-ID: <4C05C357.7050609@tx.rr.com> John Robertson wrote: > CSquared wrote: >> Ben wrote: >>> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> >>>> Can anyone tell me the approximate transistor count of the 6809? >>>> >>>> -Dave >>>> >>> Well for a ballpark figure I would double the 6800 transistor count. >>> 2x microcode rom & 2x registers. >>> >>> http://www.techheap.com/processors/6809/the_6809.pdf >>> >>> I get about 40K transistors as ball park figure. >>> Ben. >>> >> Thanks for that link; I love reading stuff like that. I'll admit I've >> not diligently researched all the possibilities, but of all the >> 8-bitters I've ever encountered, the 6809 is definitely my favorite. >> The only problem I have with that pdf file is, with my Foxit reader >> anyway, all the pictures are blank. I need to go try it with Adobe to >> see if that matters. Any one else have that problem? >> Later, >> Charlie C. >> >> > Blank as well on Preview under OSX 10.6 - first time I've ever seen > that. Perhaps the original file is defective in some way... > > John :-#(# > > Glen, Walter and perhaps others suggested this, which works fine for me. The pictures all show up in this pdf. http://tlindner.macmess.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/byte_6809_articles.pdf Later, Charlie C. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 1 23:47:22 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 21:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: good news on P112 parts In-Reply-To: <4C05D491.3060905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C05A237.4000808@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05D491.3060905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, Ben wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > >>> Just what processor is in the P112 kit? >> >> It's a Z180 with extra goodies. Z8018216FSC is the exact part number. > > What is needed to run CP/M? At minimum, an i8080. If you don't want to use the extra abilities of the Z180, it'll work just like a Z80. See http://p112.sourceforge.net/ for a wide assortment of different operating systems you can use on the P112. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tlindner at macmess.org Wed Jun 2 00:04:36 2010 From: tlindner at macmess.org (tim lindner) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2010 22:04:36 -0700 Subject: 6809 transistor count? In-Reply-To: <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <1jjfh7v.13l4rt6tiua4wM%tlindner@macmess.org> CSquared wrote: > The only problem I have with that pdf file is, with my Foxit reader > anyway, all the pictures are blank. That is an early version of the PDF. When I first typed it up I did so from photocopies of microfiche. The pictures were totally shit, so I just made place holders for them. Then later a nice person sent me better pictures. Maybe someday someone will send me color pictures. -- tim lindner tlindner at macmess.org Bright From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 2 00:14:22 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 01:14:22 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad References: <1275416512.586004promail.ptd.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dodel" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad > I have a wifi only iPad. Standard it uses Safari to read pdfs directly > from the web. You can buy pdf reader apps though. > How much do you have to pay for a 3rd party PDF reader app for the iPad? If Apple would allow flash then they would have a free PDF reader from Adobe I would think. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 2 00:26:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2010 22:26:51 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <4C059EB6.8040001@brouhaha.com> References: <20100529183303.GE14469@n0jcf.net>, <4C053544.26158.181855C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C059EB6.8040001@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C05892B.8518.2C942AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2010 at 16:58, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If you'd want to keep the 2102 cards, why not substitute 91L02s > > (AMD) which drink a lot less power? > > > They're a lot harder to find these days. Unicorn still stocks 2102L-2 low-power versions. The old 2102 cerdips ran hot as a two-buck pistol. --Chuck From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 2 02:28:49 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 09:28:49 +0200 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C057DEF.3030807@gmail.com> References: <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> <4C0578EA.2090400@brouhaha.com> <4C057DEF.3030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100602092849.a48d60e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 01 Jun 2010 17:38:55 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > There must be a way to engineer it so that the fixture to which the LED > "bulb" is attached acts as a heatsink for the LEDs. That is the problem. You need new fixtures. You can't keep the old Edison or whatever fixtures from incandescent bulps. So the LED bulps will be inherently incompatible with existing incandescent bulp instalations. This incompatiblility is the problem. Fixtures for incandescent bulps try to isolate heat as good as possible because incandescent bulps work better the hotter they are. But LEDs need to be cooled quite well. So puting a (high power) LED in a fixture for incandescent bulps is complete nonsense. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dave09 at dunfield.com Wed Jun 2 06:59:08 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 06:59:08 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: <4C05BE99.9010308@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I was under the impression that the slowness in turning pages was due > to the design of the display rather than the speed of the processor. > I'm still looking for something to replace my Sony Clie as an eBook > reader, and have yet to find anything. We've just gone through this excercise - my wife has been reading ebooks on a Sony Clie for many years and we wanted to update it. We ultimately settled on the B&N "Nook" because it is pretty much the only one that will read her many existing books which are mostly in B&N "PDB" format - so far she's been very happy with it. Whe she was looking at them for ebooks, I evaluated them as PDF readers. I use a *LOT* of PDF databooks, and being somewhat old-fashioned, I like to work with them in my lap or on the table ... so I end up printing them out. I usually try to print only the sections I need, but always end up missing something and having to stop and print in the middle of my work - I thought an e-reader would be a good alternative and would have the added bonus of not having to lug 2-foot thick stacks of paper to customer sites. I haven't gotten the nook away from her long enough to try it yet, but two I did try are the "Aluratek Libra" and the "Sony PRS600 touch". The Libra was pretty much a no-go from the start. It had findamental errors like not handling the table-of-contents in many of my PDFs (they worked in some, not in others) - I use the TOC a lot! It also tried to format them in ways that were unviewable and pan and zoom were pretty much unusable. Other issues were slowness and random crashes requiring a reset esp. with larger PDFs. The Sony was more promising, it formatted PDFs properly - I use a lot of databooks with register descriptions and other charts which need to be viewed in their native format. The 6" screen wasn't "quite" big enough - barely readable if you turned it sideways, and although their pan and zoom worked better than the libre, the slowness of the display to respond made it very difficult to use. It basically wasn't real-time pan and zoom. I found it very difficult and tiring to use even with small PDFs which displayed relatively quickly. The big problem with the Sony was the speed of it's processor. On moderate sized PDFs (3-4 megs) it would often become unresponsive for the better part of a minite, causing you to believe it had crashed. It did however faithfully record all your actions during this time so that once it did get around to finishing the operation, it would then "do" all the things you tried to while wondering if it had crashed. This would tie up the device for many minites, and at the end you would be nowhere near where you wanted to be. Even if you were very careful to not stack operations, taking a minite to go to a new page, link etc. makes it unusable in my opinion. Other than pan/zoom, the second it takes to redraw a page did not bother me at all. The largest PDF I tried on the Sony was the ARM architecture manual, which IIRC is about 12M - I ended up resetting it because it hung and apparently "never came back". One thing I really liked about the Sony was that it had a built-in app for taking notes with a stylus - I'm constantly searching for a scrap of paper to write down a note, work out a registers content etc. all of which I need for only a few minites. The Sony worked quite well as a reusable bit of scrap paper. Couldn't justify it's $300 price tag for just this function however. I have high hopes for the Ipad - although I won't be able to get one for some time yet (I'm not a wait-in-line for hours before the store opens kind of guy). It has a larger screen, and not being e-Ink it should pan/zoom much better. Another big advantage I see to it is that you are not tied to a PDF reader provided with it. The restrictions imposed by Apple regarding file transfers are annoying, however there are work arounds. I have an iPod touch which works pretty well except for the fact that the screen us far too small to be useable as a technical PDF viewer. I've seen references to third party stylus and note taking apps as well. [So even though it's not a classic device - I've been reading all the notes on the Ipad esp. as a PDF reader with great interest] Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 06:06:31 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 12:06:31 +0100 Subject: VAX 4xxx DSSI drive sleds, drive covers and DSSI node plugs available, UK. Message-ID: Folks, Found a few of these whilst tidying up our surplus stock room, there's 3 or 4 plug-in drive sleds for RFxx ISEs, quite a few device cover/node plug combos and a couple of TLZxx/RRDxx removeable device covers. We don't want any cash for them but you'd have to pay shipping from Cambridge UK, pick up obviously welcome. Oh, there's a metric buttload of the QBUS slot covers too, though I suspect they'll end up in the recycling. Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From blkline at attglobal.net Wed Jun 2 08:18:01 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 09:18:01 -0400 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100602092849.a48d60e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> <4C0578EA.2090400@brouhaha.com> <4C057DEF.3030807@gmail.com> <20100602092849.a48d60e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4C065A09.9060009@attglobal.net> Jochen Kunz wrote: > Fixtures for incandescent bulps try to isolate heat as good as possible > because incandescent bulps work better the hotter they are. But LEDs > need to be cooled quite well. So puting a (high power) LED in a fixture > for incandescent bulps is complete nonsense. FWIW, there is a move toward LEDs in pinball machines to replace the incandescent bulbs. Perhaps this site might provide suitable replacements? https://bcspinball.com/index.php?cPath=83&osCsid=3f607f2993df7b7eed914ed929782990 Barry From madodel at ptdprolog.net Wed Jun 2 08:42:08 2010 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 09:42:08 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: <1275416512.586004promail.ptd.net> Message-ID: <4C065FB0.5040904@ptdprolog.net> Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dodel" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 2:21 PM > Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad > > >> I have a wifi only iPad. Standard it uses Safari to read pdfs >> directly from the web. You can buy pdf reader apps though. >> > > How much do you have to pay for a 3rd party PDF reader app for the iPad? > If Apple would allow flash then they would have a free PDF reader from > Adobe I would think. > I haven't paid anything myself for a PDF reader as the iPad Safari is adequate for my use, but pretty much featureless for a PDF reader and a web browser. I did $0.99 for a replacement web browser. But most apps range from $0.99 to about $4.99. I'd be surprised if there is ever a Flash for the iPhone/iPod/iPad. Adobe supposedly has technical problems and the platform itself is just not powerful enough for a resource intensive app like Flash. Personally I hate Flash myself, other then for playing videos. And Steve Jobs doesn't seem to like it either. ;-) Mark From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 09:06:59 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 15:06:59 +0100 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 7:00 PM, wrote: > Liam Proven [lproven at gmail.com] wrote: >> On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Rich Alderson > >>> There is a language in the Amazon Basin, I believe Pirah?, (and this >>> is not like the "1,2,many" urban legend--there are write-ups in >>> linguistic journals) which works in base 19. ?Each finger joint, the >>> back of the hand, the wrist, the forearm, the upper arm, and the >>> shoulder are the counting points. >> >> This intrigued me and I went straight off to read about it. > > There's at least one New Scientist article that covers this > particular group. I read it on dead tree, but I assume that > subscribers could just search the archives for Everett and > see it for themselves. one/two/many does seem to be for real, > but there are many other fascinating things about these people > and their language and how it seems to have shaped their > thought processes. Sadly I am not a subscriber. > I guess they'd at least be able cope with binary (at least > for sufficiently small numbers). Apparently not. He spent 8mth trying to teach adult Pirah? to count to 10, using the Portuguese words, as many adult male Pirah? know a few words of this language. They asked him to teach them, as they feared getting ripped off when trading with outsiders. After 8mth, they gave up. None had mastered even the rudiments of counting. A few children had showed some promise but they were sent away from the lessons by the adults and not allowed to return. It's a very interesting group of people. Everett & his wife - who possibly speaks better Pirah? than him - went there as missionaries. The Pirah?'s strictly evidential approach to life - if you haven't seen it yourself, it's not real, more or less - has caused Everett to abandon his christianity and become a rational atheist (good for him!), but also their mindset seems to have acted as a sort of immune system for them, defending them from contamination with religion or indeed 20th/21st century life. That's a good thing for them, I think. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 09:10:28 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 10:10:28 -0400 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: <4C065FB0.5040904@ptdprolog.net> References: <1275416512.586004promail.ptd.net> <4C065FB0.5040904@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4C066654.6070508@gmail.com> madodel wrote: > I'd be surprised if there is ever a Flash for the iPhone/iPod/iPad. > Adobe supposedly has technical problems and the platform itself is just > not powerful enough for a resource intensive app like Flash. Personally > I hate Flash myself, other then for playing videos. And Steve Jobs > doesn't seem to like it either. ;-) Flash is coming for Android 2.2, though. I can't imagine Android phones are a much more powerful platform than iPhone. Peace... Sridhar From gyorpb at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 09:44:25 2010 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:44:25 +0200 Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C056F29.4070604@gmail.com> References: <4C02B633.6090006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C0535FA.5020401@arachelian.com> <4C04D916.5105.1971FA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0562AF.5070300@brouhaha.com> <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> <4C056F29.4070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 June 2010 22:35, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Even leaving aside the cars nowadays that have LED headlamps, and my > projection TV which uses a small array of LEDs of each of the tricolors to > provide the light for projection. LED's are rapidly replacing incandescents for bicycle lights, too, and thankfully, more and more places I play replace the stage lights with LED models. They tend to illuminate the musicians, rather than fry them. .tsooJ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 10:18:50 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:18:50 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 8:53 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Liam Proven > Sent: Monday, May 31, 2010 6:22 AM > >> The Romans are quite recent, you know. Only a couple of thousand years >> ago. Human societies of people identical to us have been around for >> about 40,000 years. The oldest buildings known so far are some 12,000 >> years ago - about 5 times longer before ancient Rome than Rome was >> before us. > > We have datable inscriptions in early forms of Latin dating into the > 6th century BCE; the infamous 7th century BCE fibula from Praeneste is > apparently a 19th century CE forgery by university students. ?So push > the Romans and their cousins back at least another 1000, to be settled > and worrying about writing. Fair enough. (That led to an interesting half an hour on Google on its own.) >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe > > I'm sure you know my opinion of Wikipedia. Well, yes, OK, conceded, but it's a decent quick run-down on the site. >> We have written records from Pharoaonic Egypt from circa 7000-8000 >> years ago, which is just one of the more fun bits of evidence that the >> young-Earth Creationists are a bunch of deranged loonies. > > They would argue that (a) your dating is in error, or (b) God made it > look like things are that old--see (a). Yes, well, they are insane by any reasonable definition. It's why I don't bother even playing at debating with them any more; I just mock them. >> The Phaistos Disk shows that there was *print* long before ancient Rome. > > Really? ?Print? ?Or simply engraved punches? Well, it's contentious, and not only does nobody know what it means (if anything), without more examples, I doubt anyone ever will. But it looks to my fairly uneducated eye, as well as that of many domain experts, to be more like some kind of script than a decorative pattern, and if so, then its makers had stamps or seals for 45 different symbols, which although circumstantial suggests that at least the basic concept of movable type had been invented in 2000BC. >> One or two hundred thousand years before the Cro-Magnon, the ancestors >> of the Europeans and most of the us, the Neanderthals had societies >> right across the world, hunting mammoths and so on. They left little >> trace other than fossils, so we know very little about them, but they >> had a human society that spread across Eurasia about a hundred times >> longer ago than ancient Rome. > > Whether we dub early modern humans "Cro-Magnon" or not, it's pretty clear > that they are the ancestors (modulo some Neanderthal "borrowings") of > everyone of us. Fair enough. I am no anthropologist. Thanks for the clarification. > And it's not at all clear that "a human society" existed in the time frame > that you posit. ?"Human societies", yes, but not a single society. Conceded. Poor wording of mine there. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 2 12:22:57 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:22:57 +0100 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa><4C02A88B.29035.230F76C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00d401cb0286$e9bad580$f73f610a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Alderson" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 8:32 PM Subject: RE: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 6:04 PM > > > On 31 May 2010 at 1:27, Andrew Burton wrote: > > >> I was thinking that Roman Numerals was the first time (I knew of) > >> numbers being represented by letters, and that would have influenced > >> whoever thought up the sexadecimal system (I can't find any reference > >> to them on wiki - I'm sure it used to be there). Perhaps I was wrong. > > > Is Andrew thinking of the sexagesimal (base 60) system? That arose in > Mesopotamia a millennium or more prior to the Romans. > No it was definately sexadecimal. I remember it, because a) it was (apparently) invented by a famous mathematician around 1850 and b) IBM replaced 'sex' (latin for 6) with 'hex' (greek for 6). Perhaps it was more misinformation on the internet, or perhaps a case of if it isn't on Wikipedia then it ain't true. I'm hoping it's the former. I did come across sexagesimal whilst trying to find sexadecimal, but haven't read up on it yet. I'll put it on my 'to do' list :) > > You may be thinking of the way the ancient Greeks represented > > numbers. (there were at least two systems--one similar to the Roman > > and the other using letters for 1-9, 10-90, 100-900, with special > > modifiers for 1000-9000. After that the modifier for a myriad > > (10,000, quite literally) was used with each letter.) > > Which the Greeks inherited in turn from the Phoenicians; ancient Hebrew > also used such a system. > > The origin of the numeral system in Greek is in fact earlier than some of > the changes leading from the late Bronze Age dialects to the classical > ones: The letters wau (later called "digamma" for its shape F, when the > sound was long lost in all Greek dialects), qoppa, and sampi were used for > "6", "90", and "900" respectively. The Semitic languages from whom this > system was borrowed had (have) more than one s-like sound, and two k-like > sounds; Greek mixed the names of some of the Phoenician letters to yield > the names sigma and san (the "lunate sigma" used in some inscriptions and > manuscripts). > > Note that the Indo-European linguistic ancestors of the Greeks, Romans, > etc., used a decimal counting system which some daughter groups tweaked. > (The Germanic group, for example, partially adopted a 12-based system on > top of the decimal, naming the next values after "10" as "one-left" and > "two-left".) > All very interesting stuff. How did you come to know all this Rich? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 2 14:19:11 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:19:11 +0100 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <457DF09E12BC4073A8E2425214470DFE@ANTONIOPC> Liam Proven [lproven at gmail.com] wrote: > On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 7:00 PM, wrote: >> I guess they'd at least be able cope with binary (at least for >> sufficiently small numbers). > > Apparently not. Let me try again ... they can do 00, they can do 01, then they get stuck. That's "sufficiently small" in my book :-) > missionaries. The Pirah?'s strictly evidential approach to > life - if you haven't seen it yourself, it's not real, more > or less - has caused Everett to abandon his christianity and > become a rational atheist (good for him!), but also their One other thing I (think I) remember from the article is that it is (apparently) impossible assert affect without also stating how it is that you have knowledge of it: you can say (the equivalent of) "I saw John leave" or "I've been told that John has left" but you cannot say "John has left" without saying how it is you think you know. Perhaps we should hire them as politicians? (No expenses scandals :-)) Antonio From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jun 2 14:20:15 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 12:20:15 -0700 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C05D403.4000301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05D403.4000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: Ben Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 8:46 PM > Rich Alderson wrote: >> Oh, that's simply nonsense, and I doubt that you read that. (You may >> have misunderstood something you read to say that, I'll grant.) The >> horse was domesticated roughly 7,500 years ago, or anywhere from 7 to >> 25 times more recently than language in humans. > I think that was about 10k to 15k BP. I don't have the the original > doc's to prove on way or the other as I read this third hand. > I do know it was historical fiction, but the facts seem reasonable > in context. Piers Anthony was the writer. Seriously???? Will you cite Jean Auel next? By training, I am an historical linguist specializing in Indo-European languages, with additional studies in Algonquian, Siouan, and Kartvelian linguistics. I thought we were having a real discussion of real data on (off) the topic. I admire Piers Anthony's facility with language, but he is entertainment rather than academics. >> Are you refering to _The Horse, the Wheel, and Language_? The author >> is an archaeological anthropologist, and both his linguistics and his >> use of Zoroastrian mythology is shaky (to be kind). I can only hope >> that the archaeology holds up better than the other two; I'm not >> qualified to judge its merits (only one arch. anthro. course in >> college). > A proper report lets you judge one way or the other. I agree. The problem is that his missteps with the linguistics, and anachronistic use of Zoroastrian mythology, casts grave doubts on the interpretations he gives to the data he reports from Soviet-era digs. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 14:33:25 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 20:33:25 +0100 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: <457DF09E12BC4073A8E2425214470DFE@ANTONIOPC> References: <457DF09E12BC4073A8E2425214470DFE@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:19 PM, wrote: > Liam Proven [lproven at gmail.com] wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 7:00 PM, ? wrote: >>> I guess they'd at least be able cope with binary (at least for >>> sufficiently small numbers). >> >> Apparently not. > > Let me try again ... they can do 00, they can do 01, then they get > stuck. > That's "sufficiently small" in my book :-) Possibly. The thing that is so interesting about them is that in some cases they use the same word that normally denotes "one" to indicate a group which in totality is smaller than a single instance of a comparable entity. 2 small fishes = 1; 1 big fish = 2 So, maybe not. This is why the no-counting claim is so extraordinary. >> missionaries. The Pirah?'s strictly evidential approach to >> life - if you haven't seen it yourself, it's not real, more >> or less - has caused Everett to abandon his christianity and >> become a rational atheist (good for him!), but also their > > One other thing I (think I) remember from the article is that it > is (apparently) impossible assert affect without also stating how > it is that you have knowledge of it: you can say (the equivalent > of) "I saw John leave" or "I've been told that John has left" but > you cannot say "John has left" without saying how it is you think > you know. > > Perhaps we should hire them as politicians? (No expenses scandals :-)) That sort of idea was one of the inspirations behind Lojban, I think... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 2 14:43:47 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 13:43:47 -0600 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05D403.4000301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C06B473.6020600@jetnet.ab.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: >> I think that was about 10k to 15k BP. I don't have the the original >> doc's to prove on way or the other as I read this third hand. >> I do know it was historical fiction, but the facts seem reasonable >> in context. Piers Anthony was the writer. > > Seriously???? Will you cite Jean Auel next? Sure , why not, in the context, historical fiction has the advantage of providing some insight of the unknown human factor in use of items found in pre-history. > By training, I am an historical linguist specializing in Indo-European > languages, with additional studies in Algonquian, Siouan, and Kartvelian > linguistics. I thought we were having a real discussion of real data on > (off) the topic. Well do you have any internet links of the subject, that does not require a subscription. Indo-Eupropean is what physical land areas discussed. > I admire Piers Anthony's facility with language, but he is entertainment > rather than academics. Still it is better than, caveman still attacking dinosaurs as most of the media still have you believing. What I would like to read about is more, pre-history acted out as people lived back then, as the social factor played a big part in life, say compared to day where the the social life is about who has the latest TV or Computer. > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 13:10:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:10:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 1, 10 09:20:49 am Message-ID: > > Good suggestion Tim and thanks to others for their suggestions too. > I'll give this a try and see how it pans out. I can sure test the > theory with a VARIAC. The original transformer is rated at 7.25V @ > 10A so I think the current capability is sufficient-- just too low of > a secondary voltage. If I had a penny for every time I 'thought it was sufficient/OK/not the fault/,,,' I would have no problem attending a VCF in the States :-) More seriously, I much prefer to make mesaurements and do tests before changing anything. That way you know what is going on, you know what the problem really is, and you can correct it. Not do something that seems to work now and whcih will cause problems later. Since in this case the first test is an easy one to do (namely measuring the AC voltage from the transformer secondary winding), I wouldn't even think of not doing it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 13:46:03 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:46:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jun 1, 10 09:19:44 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > > It's not the dummy load, it's the 'series lightbulb trick'. > > OK. A "rough service" bulb is what you want. That's a filament This is why I want to see the exact terms of the ban in the UK and rest of the EU. If rough service bulbs are exempt, then there is no problem at all. > light bulb to you and me but you can drop it a few more times > before it becomes a candidate for immediate landfill. > > A quick check online suggests that instead of ~40p you'll end > up paying ~=A32 but if you only use it for servicing gear (and > you're not too clumsy) then I presume the slight increase in > cost probably isn't a big deal. It's no problem at all. The bulb is going to last a long time used as a series limiter, and aanyway it problaby saves its cost many times over every time I use it. > > > I'd heard 'domestic _lightiing_ applications'. There is a significant > > differnece, at least for what I do :-) > > What they sell them for and what you do with them are different things. > AFAIK the legislation doesn't stop you buying a carpet and using it as > wallpaper (or buying a rough service bulb intended to light up the local > mechanic's workshop and then sticking it in a lampholder at home). Right... So just what is the point of this ban? :-) > > > Hopefully muy local electrical wholesaller will keep them (it's the > > sort of place that doens't ask questions, they just sell you what you > > ask for). > > I don't think it even matters if you walk in and say "I want a rough > service > bulb and I'm going to take it home, stick it in a domestic lampholder > and > read a schematic by it all night long". It's not even theoretically Maybe, maybe not. I think it's simpler to just go and ask for the rough service bulb. After that, what I do with it is my business and nobody need know :-) > illegal > for them to sell it to you under those circumstances or for you to > purchase > it and use it under those circumstances. As long as the box holds no > more > than two bulbs and the box says "not for domestic use" (or some similar And what on earth is the point of 'no more than 2 bulbs per box', other than to ensure the use of excessive packaging which will need to be recylced. I thought they were trying to cut down waste, not increase it... Is it similar to that ridiculous law that you can only buy Aspirin tablets in boxes of 16 (or 32 from a registers pharmacy)? The idea behind that was you couldn't buy enough to fatally overdose on. But if I was daft enough to want to commit suicide that way (and I will assure you I am not), I would have the sense to visit several shops to get enough pills... > restrictions) they can sell them and you can buy them all day long. > > How long they'll be commercially available depends (I presume) on how > long > commercial premises keep needing them (which I presume depends on how Well, considiering I saw new _carbon filament_ bulbs advertised on a web site quite recently, I suspect that rough serve bulbs will be around for quite some time.. > long > it takes for a viable LED based lamp to appear at a sensible price). > > At that point you'll need to design a suitable replacement; but I > wouldn't=20 > worry just yet. (Hey, leaded solder is still easily available). True, and I guess for much the same reasons. There are applications where there is no alternative to lead/tin solder. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 13:49:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:49:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: incandescent replacement (was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C056EB3.1060704@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 1, 10 04:33:55 pm Message-ID: > I dunno, the Home Depot (large consumer-grade hardware store chain in > the US), as of my trip there yesterday, carries quite a wide variety of > LED-based incandescent replacements. The ones I've seen over here are very low power consumption (<2W) but also very dim. They may well be efficient, but you'd need about 10 of the replacement 'bulbs' instead of a filament bulb in the average room. Which makes them look a lot less attractive to me. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jun 2 14:52:35 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 12:52:35 -0700 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <00d401cb0286$e9bad580$f73f610a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com>, <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa><4C02A88B.29035.230F76C@cclist.sydex.com> <00d401cb0286$e9bad580$f73f610a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: From: Andrew Burton Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 10:23 AM > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich Alderson" > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 8:32 PM >> From: Chuck Guzis >> Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 6:04 PM >> Is Andrew thinking of the sexagesimal (base 60) system? That arose in >> Mesopotamia a millennium or more prior to the Romans. > No it was definately sexadecimal. I remember it, because a) it was > (apparently) invented by a famous mathematician around 1850 and b) IBM > replaced 'sex' (latin for 6) with 'hex' (greek for 6). Perhaps it was more > misinformation on the internet, or perhaps a case of if it isn't on > Wikipedia then it ain't true. I'm hoping it's the former. OK, I did a little research on this via Google. "Sexadecimal" is cited in a number of on-line dictionaries as a synonym for "hexadecimal", and there is a cite on one page indicating that Bendix used the term in documentation. However, "hexadecimal" dates from 1954 and is considered to be perfectly good scientific nomenclature in form (mixed Greek and Latin roots, and all that). I also ran across the 1862 book on "tonal" math, written by an engineer who created an adding machine c. 1850. This involved adding 6 symbols to the usual 10, placing one between "8" and "9" to represent the value 9, and assigning the value 10 to the symbol "9". He also assigned monosyllabic names to each number from 1 to 16 (the latter being "ton") so that each number could be pronounced as a (possibly very long) word. I sincerely doubt that this influenced the development of hexadecimal math to any great degree. > All very interesting stuff. How did you come to know all this Rich? As I noted in my response to Ben, I'm an Indo-Europeanist by training. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 13:56:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 19:56:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C0575B0.5050800@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 1, 10 10:03:44 pm Message-ID: > > On 01/06/2010 19:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've not tried a photographic colour temperature meter with CFLs. Does it > > give any meaningful reuslts at all? > > I haven't either, but I'd not trust the result because unless it's a CFL > made specially to have a "daylight" spectrum, the result won't tell you > much. Just like normal striplights. Exactly. The spectrum of most CFLs (and other fluorescent lamps) is all over the place, which makes it mildly useless for colour photography. > > >>From what I've read, it doesn't apply to instrument lamps (so the > > frontpanel bulbs for classic computers are OK), car bulbs, torch > > (flashlight) bulbs, projector bulbs (I hope!), and thigns like that. > > > > I wodner if it applies to photofloods? > > Dunno. I don't think so, because although it applies to the 150W ES > bulbs I use for my monolight modelling lamps :-( I can still get > higher-power photofloods that fit. Good!. If all else fails I'll use photofloods then. If necessary on a step-down transformer to counteract the fact that they are designed to be overrun. I believe it doesn't apply to tungsten halogen bulbs either, so I should be able to get the bulbs for my slide projectors, enlarger, etc. -tony From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 16:02:33 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 22:02:33 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C06C6E9.7050705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Is it similar to that ridiculous law that you can only buy Aspirin > tablets in boxes of 16 (or 32 from a registers pharmacy)? The idea behind > that was you couldn't buy enough to fatally overdose on. But if I was > daft enough to want to commit suicide that way (and I will assure you I > am not), I would have the sense to visit several shops to get enough pills... Apparently it did have an effect on the suicide rate because it means you have to take deliberate and concerted action to do it. It's a lot harder than to just open a big pot and take 50 of them, as IIRC they also have to be individually wrapped, so you also have to push each one out of it's wrapping before you take it. This of course means that while you are doing it you are actually thinking about things, and may in the end decide not to do it. So basically it won't prevent you but it will slow you down. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 16:15:13 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 16:15:13 -0500 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C06C9E1.3080900@gmail.com> Ben wrote: > But modern language must have roots from somewhere in the deep past. > I have read that domestication of the horse,around the black sea > may have been on of the first wide spread use of a language to convey > ideas at the time. Talking horses? Who woulda thunk it? :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 2 16:23:23 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 15:23:23 -0600 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C06C9E1.3080900@gmail.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C06C9E1.3080900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C06CBCB.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ben wrote: >> But modern language must have roots from somewhere in the deep past. >> I have read that domestication of the horse,around the black sea >> may have been on of the first wide spread use of a language to convey >> ideas at the time. > > Talking horses? Who woulda thunk it? :-) Nay ... From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 2 16:30:07 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 22:30:07 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FCBE06D956B48FAB5944ADA6B66E615@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > This is why I want to see the exact terms of the ban in the > UK and rest > of the EU. If rough service bulbs are exempt, then there is > no problem at > all. I cannot find the primary legislation, and I bet if I could I'd regret it :-) Here's one retailer's opinion: http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/info/incandescent/ Here's another actually selling them: http://www.lyco.co.uk/Light-Bulbs/Regular-Light-Bulbs/Rough-Service-Bulb s/sc1340.aspx They think they can sell them. If they're wrong, they're committing the offence, not you (probably :-)). Apparently in the US the sales of alternatives (like rough service bulbs) are being monitored and action may be taken if sales go up too much. or maybe not, who knows. > Right... So just what is the point of this ban? :-) Even you might buy the odd bulb and possibly even use these alternatives all around the house, but pretty obviously the vast majority of the 20 million (plus) households in the UK will switch. They throw away mobiles after a year, computers after two and TVs at maybe the same rate. Bulbs won't be a big deal. So the point is that usage will drop very significantly. Whether that's more than a drop in the ocean or not I've no idea. > And what on earth is the point of 'no more than 2 bulbs per > box', other > than to ensure the use of excessive packaging which will need to be > recylced. I thought they were trying to cut down waste, not > increase it... Same as the analgesics packaging rules: if you make it inconvenient to go around the rules, most people won't be bothered. Job done. > Well, considiering I saw new _carbon filament_ bulbs > advertised on a web > site quite recently, I suspect that rough serve bulbs will be > around for > quite some time.. I expect so. > True, and I guess for much the same reasons. There are > applications where > there is no alternative to lead/tin solder. "We have to do it this way" never cuts much ice in these sorts of things, at least as far as I can see. Let's just be grateful that it is still available and that a lifetime's supply isn't really that hard to build up over time. (Who knows, they might be watching your spending habits ... I'm always amazed I can still buy Ferric Chloride ... it is a chemical after all :-)) Antonio From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 2 16:34:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <4C06C6E9.7050705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4C06C6E9.7050705@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20100602143342.L25540@shell.lmi.net> > > Is it similar to that ridiculous law that you can only buy Aspirin > > tablets in boxes of 16 (or 32 from a registers pharmacy)? The idea behind > > that was you couldn't buy enough to fatally overdose on. But if I was On Wed, 2 Jun 2010, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Apparently it did have an effect on the suicide rate because it means > you have to take deliberate and concerted action to do it. It's a lot > harder than to just open a big pot and take 50 of them, as IIRC they > also have to be individually wrapped, so you also have to push each one > out of it's wrapping before you take it. > This of course means that while you are doing it you are actually > thinking about things, and may in the end decide not to do it. > So basically it won't prevent you but it will slow you down. or at least give you a headache! From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Jun 2 16:42:50 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 23:42:50 +0200 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C06C9E1.3080900@gmail.com> <4C06CBCB.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6C4007EB7E3E4696A43B4F01F5A0EE84@udvikling> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben" Jules Richardson wrote: >> Ben wrote: >>> But modern language must have roots from somewhere in the deep past. >>> I have read that domestication of the horse,around the black sea >>> may have been on of the first wide spread use of a language to convey >>> ideas at the time. >> >> Talking horses? Who woulda thunk it? :-) > > Nay ... > Never heard of Mr. Ed, the talking horse? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 2 16:43:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C06C9E1.3080900@gmail.com> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C06C9E1.3080900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100602143510.L25540@shell.lmi.net> > > But modern language must have roots from somewhere in the deep past. > > I have read that domestication of the horse,around the black sea > > may have been on of the first wide spread use of a language to convey > > ideas at the time. On Wed, 2 Jun 2010, Jules Richardson wrote: > Talking horses? Who woulda thunk it? :-) Trained horses (and dogs) learn many words of English. (Not counting "Clever Hans"!) But how much horse (or dog) language do the Yahoos (Swift/Gulliver) learn? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 16:49:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 17:49:13 -0400 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <3FCBE06D956B48FAB5944ADA6B66E615@ANTONIOPC> References: <3FCBE06D956B48FAB5944ADA6B66E615@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: > I cannot find the primary legislation, and I bet if I could I'd > regret it :-) > > Here's one retailer's opinion: > http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/info/incandescent/ > > Here's another actually selling them: > http://www.lyco.co.uk/Light-Bulbs/Regular-Light-Bulbs/Rough-Service-Bulb > s/sc1340.aspx What I have heard from all this lightbulb talk, as well as other issues - in the US, everything you read is crap, unless you are looking at the text of the law. There are many people with axes to grind, and will even use lightbulbs to do it. > Apparently in the US the sales of alternatives (like rough service > bulbs) are being > monitored and action may be taken if sales go up too much. or maybe not, > who knows. Lightbulb cops? No, there is no monitoring. > Same as the analgesics packaging rules: if you make it inconvenient > to go around the rules, most people won't be bothered. Job done. Pretty much like the various copy protection systems software has used over the years. -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jun 2 16:46:39 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 14:46:39 -0700 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C06B473.6020600@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05D403.4000301@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C06B473.6020600@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: Ben Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 12:44 PM > Rich Alderson wrote: >>> I think that was about 10k to 15k BP. I don't have the the original >>> doc's to prove on way or the other as I read this third hand. >>> I do know it was historical fiction, but the facts seem reasonable >>> in context. Piers Anthony was the writer. >> Seriously???? Will you cite Jean Auel next? > Sure , why not, in the context, historical fiction > has the advantage of providing some insight of the unknown > human factor in use of items found in pre-history. Whatever. >> By training, I am an historical linguist specializing in Indo-European >> languages, with additional studies in Algonquian, Siouan, and Kartvelian >> linguistics. I thought we were having a real discussion of real data on >> (off) the topic. > Well do you have any internet links of the subject, > that does not require a subscription. Indo-Eupropean is > what physical land areas discussed. http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ Start with any of the links referring to Indo-European. Lehmann is a well- respected scholar in the field, even by those who do not agree with him. Most of what you will find on the Web having to do with Indo-European linguistics is crap. That includes the Wikipedia pages, too. Mostly, go to a university library and start reading. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 2 17:34:00 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 15:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: from Rich Alderson at "Jun 2, 10 02:46:39 pm" Message-ID: <201006022234.o52MY0DU014398@floodgap.com> > Most of what you will find on the Web having to do with Indo-European > linguistics is crap. That includes the Wikipedia pages, too. Agreed. (BA, general linguistics, UC San Diego 1997) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Bowl angry. ---------------------------------------------------------------- From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jun 2 17:41:01 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 15:41:01 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) Message-ID: Are you kidding? We can't fund enough people to deal with important things like education, health and public safety, and people really think we are paying people to watch *lightbulb sales*? I think someone's tinfoil hat is too tight.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 2:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK > I cannot find the primary legislation, and I bet if I could I'd > regret it :-) > > Here's one retailer's opinion: > http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/info/incandescent/ > > Here's another actually selling them: > http://www.lyco.co.uk/Light-Bulbs/Regular-Light-Bulbs/Rough-Service-Bulb > s/sc1340.aspx What I have heard from all this lightbulb talk, as well as other issues - in the US, everything you read is crap, unless you are looking at the text of the law. There are many people with axes to grind, and will even use lightbulbs to do it. > Apparently in the US the sales of alternatives (like rough service > bulbs) are being > monitored and action may be taken if sales go up too much. or maybe not, > who knows. Lightbulb cops? No, there is no monitoring. > Same as the analgesics packaging rules: if you make it inconvenient > to go around the rules, most people won't be bothered. Job done. Pretty much like the various copy protection systems software has used over the years. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 2 18:00:42 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <6C4007EB7E3E4696A43B4F01F5A0EE84@udvikling> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com><530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC><4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com><00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C06C9E1.3080900@gmail.com> <4C06CBCB.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> <6C4007EB7E3E4696A43B4F01F5A0EE84@udvikling> Message-ID: <20100602155051.B25540@shell.lmi.net> > >> Talking horses? Who woulda thunk it? :-) > > Nay ... > Never heard of Mr. Ed, the talking horse? Did you know that Mr.Ed was actually a ZEBRA? If you don't believe it, check it out on SNOPES.COM http://www.snopes.com/lost/mistered.asp Snopes.com is almost as much of an authority as Wikipedia! :-) False Authority Syndrome From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 2 18:01:55 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What gets me is that we're supposed to pay big money to dispose of Florescent Lightbulbs. Our local garbage company now charges anywhere from $0.75 to $1.25 per bulb! This does remind me though, I should stock up on certain Incandescent bulbs. They do serve purposes that make them far better than Florescent at times. My question is which is really less environmentally friendly? Incandescent or Florescent? Zane On Wed, 2 Jun 2010, Ian King wrote: > Are you kidding? We can't fund enough people to deal with important > things like education, health and public safety, and people really think > we are paying people to watch *lightbulb sales*? I think someone's > tinfoil hat is too tight.... -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 2:49 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK > >> I cannot find the primary legislation, and I bet if I could I'd >> regret it :-) >> >> Here's one retailer's opinion: >> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/info/incandescent/ >> >> Here's another actually selling them: >> http://www.lyco.co.uk/Light-Bulbs/Regular-Light-Bulbs/Rough-Service-Bulb >> s/sc1340.aspx > > What I have heard from all this lightbulb talk, as well as other > issues - in the US, everything you read is crap, unless you are > looking at the text of the law. There are many people with axes to > grind, and will even use lightbulbs to do it. > >> Apparently in the US the sales of alternatives (like rough service >> bulbs) are being >> monitored and action may be taken if sales go up too much. or maybe not, >> who knows. > > Lightbulb cops? > > No, there is no monitoring. > >> Same as the analgesics packaging rules: if you make it inconvenient >> to go around the rules, most people won't be bothered. Job done. > > Pretty much like the various copy protection systems software has used > over the years. > > -- > Will > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 2 18:14:33 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 16:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100602160557.Q25540@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 2 Jun 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > This does remind me though, I should stock up on certain Incandescent > bulbs. They do serve purposes that make them far better than Florescent at > times. I had never heard of "Rough Service" bulbs until the 1970s. When I had a large automotive repair business in the 1970s, I bought them by the case. I also saved replaced automobile headlights to use the remaining filament for power supply testing. I still won't use anything but "rough service" in drop lights, portable lights, desk lamps, goose-neck lamps, swing-arm lamps, etc. I have a swing-arm lamp for my bed. Its power is controlled by a small box that also flashes it when the phone rings. What else should I use? About 15 years ago, Harbor Freight stopped carrying rough-service bulbs. But I got a helluva deal at their parking lot sale! It will take me a while to use up a dozen cases of them. "No more than two to a package"??? Don't they realize that tinfoil hats act as antennas? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 2 18:17:43 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 17:17:43 -0600 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C06E697.8060906@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > What gets me is that we're supposed to pay big money to dispose of > Florescent Lightbulbs. Our local garbage company now charges anywhere from > $0.75 to $1.25 per bulb! > > This does remind me though, I should stock up on certain Incandescent > bulbs. They do serve purposes that make them far better than Florescent at > times. > > My question is which is really less environmentally friendly? Incandescent > or Florescent? The Florescent bulbs the replace real bulbs. You throw away the electronics. They could have been recycling light bulbs since the 70's. > Zane Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 2 18:25:28 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 19:25:28 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C06E868.9030407@neurotica.com> On 6/2/10 7:01 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > What gets me is that we're supposed to pay big money to dispose of > Florescent Lightbulbs. Our local garbage company now charges anywhere from > $0.75 to $1.25 per bulb! Heh. Not just "no", but "FUCK NO". If they pull that sort of crap here, I'll start chucking them in commercial dumpsters or in the trash cans in front of the grocery store. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jun 2 08:43:24 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 09:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8" boot disk for Disk Jockey 2D/B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2010, David Griffith wrote: > > I was wondering if anyone here has an 8-inch CP/M disk set for use with a > ThinkerToys Disk Jockey 2D/B. Dave, Do you just need the files, or are you looking for something bootable? I have most of the files. Steve -- From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jun 2 18:44:38 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 18:44:38 -0500 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (06/02/2010 at 07:10PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Good suggestion Tim and thanks to others for their suggestions too. > > I'll give this a try and see how it pans out. I can sure test the > > theory with a VARIAC. The original transformer is rated at 7.25V @ > > 10A so I think the current capability is sufficient-- just too low of > > a secondary voltage. > > If I had a penny for every time I 'thought it was sufficient/OK/not the > fault/,,,' I would have no problem attending a VCF in the States :-) > > More seriously, I much prefer to make mesaurements and do tests before > changing anything. That way you know what is going on, you know what the > problem really is, and you can correct it. Not do something that seems to > work now and whcih will cause problems later. > > Since in this case the first test is an easy one to do (namely measuring > the AC voltage from the transformer secondary winding), I wouldn't even > think of not doing it. Yes Tony... I have done all of that. The secondary is dropping to nearly 6 VAC with only 5A load on the DC side of the bridge and 120VAC supplied to the primary. The ripple on the DC side is in excess of 1V with that same 5A load. I have swapped in alternative filter caps temporarily and see little improvement. I checked the bridge for shorted diodes or excessive loss and it looks OK. I just received two new transformers to consider as a replacement for the original. The problem with putting a booster on the primary of the original is that it also raises the 24VAC secondary resulting in the +/- 12VDC rails going well above 16V. There's quite a few things in the machine that use the 12V rails directly without regulators and I think that's too high for some of them. So, I am going to put in a seperate 24VAC CT transformer for the +/- 12V supply and an 8VAC 10A transformer for the +8V supply. This was a mod often done to the machine so I'm not making it too much of a Frankenstein. In restrospect, I think I am like you and will likely never sell this machine... so, for now, it's about making it run right and having some fun (again) with it. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 3 00:50:18 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2010 22:50:18 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> On 06/02/2010 11:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriously, I much prefer to make mesaurements and do tests before > changing anything. That's crazy talk! Everyone knows that the way to repair equipment is to swap all the parts first! Reminds me of Feynman's story about repairing someone's radio when he was young. The guy was getting impatient because Feynman was just sitting around doing nothing. Then Feynman swapped two tubes, and the radio worked. They guy was amazed. "He fixes radios by *thinking*!" From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jun 3 02:32:34 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 00:32:34 -0700 Subject: Portable PDF viewers (was: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad) In-Reply-To: References: <1275416512.586004promail.ptd.net> Message-ID: <4C075A92.6020302@mail.msu.edu> I suppose this may be considered passe in this modern world of iPads and eBook readers (here on cctalk, of all places!), but I use an old Tablet PC (an Acer Travelmate C110 - cost me all of $200 on eBay a couple of years back) for PDF viewing away from my desktop (i.e. on the workbench). It's nowhere near as light as a Nook, but it's considerably more functional -- I use it as a dumb terminal, do some light coding, and can annotate PDFs with the stylus if need be. It's still pretty small - it has a 10.4" 1024x768 screen, weighs somewhere around 3lbs, and is convertible between a "tablet" form factor and a normal "laptop" with keyboard. Only downside is that the battery life's not all that good -- I get maybe an hour and a half on a charge. But it does what I need for viewing most PDFs (I still sometimes prefer to print them out, though, depending on the content...) and I don't have to fight with proprietary hardware to do it. - Josh Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dodel" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 2:21 PM > Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad > > >> I have a wifi only iPad. Standard it uses Safari to read pdfs >> directly from the web. You can buy pdf reader apps though. >> > > How much do you have to pay for a 3rd party PDF reader app for the > iPad? If Apple would allow flash then they would have a free PDF > reader from Adobe I would think. > > > > From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 07:36:48 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 08:36:48 -0400 Subject: Portable PDF viewers (was: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad) In-Reply-To: <4C075A92.6020302@mail.msu.edu> References: <1275416512.586004promail.ptd.net>, , <4C075A92.6020302@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: goodreader is one of the best apps for reading PDFs I've seen for any idevice check it out. there are a few, like PDFexpert and such that cost money. you can use the free (lite) version of goodreader, but it's not that pricey. itunes often has paid apps for free on select days, but there's no way to know which day or which apps come up ahead of time. i'm not at all impressed with the iPad though, I'm hoping the notionink adam isn't total vaporware and that it actually comes out sometime soon > > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Dodel" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 2:21 PM > > Subject: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad > > > > > >> I have a wifi only iPad. Standard it uses Safari to read pdfs > >> directly from the web. You can buy pdf reader apps though. > >> > > > > How much do you have to pay for a 3rd party PDF reader app for the > > iPad? If Apple would allow flash then they would have a free PDF > > reader from Adobe I would think. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Learn more ways to connect with your buddies now http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9734388 From gyorpb at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 07:55:38 2010 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 14:55:38 +0200 Subject: Portable PDF viewers (was: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad) In-Reply-To: References: <1275416512.586004promail.ptd.net>, , <4C075A92.6020302@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <8E075133-8EA7-4263-A1B0-3199BB11E3BE@gmail.com> On Jun 3, 2010, at 14:36, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > itunes often has paid apps for free on select days, but there's no way to > know which day or which apps come up ahead of time. There's an app for that! It's called PandoraBox, and while it won't tell you ahead of time when certain apps will be free (or discounted), it does give you a list of currently free/discounted apps. And you can add apps to a favourites list which you check at regular intervals to keep an eye on any price drops. .tsooJ -- Who was the guy who first looked at a cow and said, "I think I'll drink whatever comes out of these things when I squeeze 'em!"? -- Joost van de Griek From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 08:35:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 06:35:14 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net> References: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> ,<20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > From: chrise at pobox.com ---snip--- > > I just received two new transformers to consider as a replacement for > the original. The problem with putting a booster on the primary of the > original is that it also raises the 24VAC secondary resulting in the +/- > 12VDC rails going well above 16V. There's quite a few things in the ---snip--- Hi Is there an air gap between the outside of the windings and the frame core? If so, you could add a few turns for the 8V winding. Often there is a thick cardboard like cover over the winding that can be carefully cut from between the core and the outside of the windings and the core. One just has to be careful not to break the primary windings as they are quite fine. The windings typically go under this outer cover and then are spliced with the insulated wire to feed out of the transformer. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 3 08:54:18 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 08:54:18 -0500 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100602155051.B25540@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C06C9E1.3080900@gmail.com> <4C06CBCB.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> <6C4007EB7E3E4696A43B4F01F5A0EE84@udvikling> <20100602155051.B25540@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201006031354.o53DsSqQ024343@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 06:00 PM 6/2/2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >Did you know that Mr.Ed was actually a ZEBRA? >If you don't believe it, check it out on SNOPES.COM >http://www.snopes.com/lost/mistered.asp >Snopes.com is almost as much of an authority as Wikipedia! :-) >False Authority Syndrome Straight from The Repository Of Lost Legends (or T.R.O.L.L.). Like it says there, next thing you know you'll be telling me that Panama hats don't come from Panama, French fries aren't from France, India ink didn't come from India, and German chocolate cake didn't come from Germany. Can you point me to something on Snopes that you think isn't so? - John From bernd at kopriva.de Thu Jun 3 09:37:15 2010 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 16:37:15 +0200 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... Message-ID: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> Hi, a short time ago, i got hold of a C 900 (bare machine only, no keyboard/monitor), that i want to get working again ... I have already searched the Web for specs of keyboard and monitor but without success. The machine has an AT-type keyboard plug, but it's not clear (at least for me), if a normal IBM compatible keyboard will work. As i have the workstation version, the display resolution should be 1024*800 which seems to be a bit uncommon, so i'm not sure, which monitor could work ... Can anyone provide some documentation, that would help to find a working keyboard/monitor ? Getting the software for the machine would be very helpful too ! ... Thanks a lot Bernd From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 09:59:17 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 07:59:17 -0700 Subject: C64: Chameleon 64 Message-ID: I was just looking to see if there was any updated software for my "MMC Replay" cartridge, and I ran across information that the "MMC Replay" has been discontinued (http://www.vesalia.de/e_mmcreplay.htm), and is being replaced by the "Chameleon 64". Does anyone have any info on this? It looks like it will be expensive (about 200 Euro), but I want one! http://www.vesalia.de/e_chameleon.htm Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 10:05:40 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 08:05:40 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> References: ,<4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > On 06/02/2010 11:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > More seriously, I much prefer to make mesaurements and do tests before > > changing anything. > That's crazy talk! Everyone knows that the way to repair equipment is > to swap all the parts first! > > Reminds me of Feynman's story about repairing someone's radio when he > was young. The guy was getting impatient because Feynman was just > sitting around doing nothing. Then Feynman swapped two tubes, and the > radio worked. They guy was amazed. "He fixes radios by *thinking*!" > > Hi It was 201A's not 212A's. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 10:06:00 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 10:06:00 -0500 Subject: C64: Chameleon 64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm waiting for it too. It's ridiculous. Basically, you don't even need the c64 anymore. iirc, you can run a c64 emulator just inside the cartridge. But anyway, it acts like the CMD type accelerators, with three different speeds: normal, CMD supercpu which I think is 20x, and full blast. There's 16megs of memory, SD card slot for 1541 emulation, there's also vga and ps/2 mouse and keyboard connectors. I think it has ethernet also (or accepts that module). It's expensive, but I'm getting one anyway. I'm sure there will be a limited production run and I'm sure it will go for insane amounts of money on ebay later, so it's not lost money. I wish they'd make something like this for the amiga also. brian On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I was just looking to see if there was any updated software for my "MMC > Replay" cartridge, and I ran across information that the "MMC Replay" has > been discontinued (http://www.vesalia.de/e_mmcreplay.htm), and is being > replaced by the "Chameleon 64". > > Does anyone have any info on this? ?It looks like it will be expensive > (about 200 Euro), but I want one! > http://www.vesalia.de/e_chameleon.htm > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| OpenVMS Enthusiast ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | ? ? Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, ? ?| > | ? ? ? ? ?PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 11:33:29 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 09:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FAS (Was: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <201006031354.o53DsSqQ024343@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <530BDE25A2714C908E90C1228E331622@ANTONIOPC> <4BFFC392.25337.1447017@cclist.sydex.com> <00f301caff57$340e9910$332e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> <00f601cb005a$688bf350$5f7c5f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4C033201.3030105@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C05A502.5060502@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C06C9E1.3080900@gmail.com> <4C06CBCB.3050305@jetnet.ab.ca> <6C4007EB7E3E4696A43B4F01F5A0EE84@udvikling> <20100602155051.B25540@shell.lmi.net> <201006031354.o53DsSqQ024343@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100603090004.A61719@shell.lmi.net> (emoticons when referring Mr. Ed reference to "Zebra" should have been more obvious) On Thu, 3 Jun 2010, John Foust wrote: > Can you point me to something on Snopes that you think isn't so? Howzbout: http://www.snopes.com/fraud/telephone/jailcall.asp http://www.snopes.com/fraud/telephone/809.asp http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/household/triangle.asp I object to labelling "Mixture of True and false information" a lying fictitious story that contains a partial true story in its origins. The whole thing is a lie, not a "mix". Ever met a PBX that would do a call transfer to an outside line, or ANYTHING, by pressing 9 while on a call? Ever notice that your PHONE BOOK has an explicit statement that you can refuse to pay fo calls that you were not aware would be charged? "$24,000" V ~$10 (actual) ? That is NOT a "mix" of true and false. No recourse, nor compliance with USA laws, because it is a foreign company billing in USA? Yes, phone scams exist. Even "call back at 900- " and "Hello, Microsoft, this is Bill Gates out in the field, please transfer me to an outside line". But that is NOT enough to declare completely bogus "WARNINGS" to be "half true". Barbara does a great job. But there are some topics where she is over her head. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 3 13:21:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 19:21:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: <3FCBE06D956B48FAB5944ADA6B66E615@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jun 2, 10 10:30:07 pm Message-ID: > I cannot find the primary legislation, and I bet if I could I'd > regret it :-) I would be a lot happier if I knew what the law actually said... > > Apparently in the US the sales of alternatives (like rough service > bulbs) are being > monitored and action may be taken if sales go up too much. or maybe not, > who knows. Argh!. So perhaps we'd better not stock up on rough service bulbs... > > And what on earth is the point of 'no more than 2 bulbs per > > box', other > > than to ensure the use of excessive packaging which will need to be > > recylced. I thought they were trying to cut down waste, not > > increase it... > > Same as the analgesics packaging rules: if you make it inconvenient > to go around the rules, most people won't be bothered. Job done. Err, no. As somebody pointed out, the laws on aspirin mean you have to take time to take an overdose, by which point you might get fed up and decide to take your life in some other way. But nobody (that I know of) fits domestic light bulbs in bulk. They fit a new one when the old one fails. So extra pacakaging is not an inconvenience, it's just a wast. > "We have to do it this way" never cuts much ice in these sorts > of things, at least as far as I can see. Let's just be grateful > that it is still available and that a lifetime's supply isn't > really that hard to build up over time. (Who knows, they might > be watching your spending habits ... I'm always amazed I can still > buy Ferric Chloride ... it is a chemical after all :-)) So is sodium chloride, and I've had no problems buying that recently... But a lot of totally harmless checmicals are now very hard to get, which is a great pity... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 3 13:24:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 19:24:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Jun 2, 10 03:41:01 pm Message-ID: > > Are you kidding? We can't fund enough people to deal with important things= > like education, health and public safety, and people really think we are p= > aying people to watch *lightbulb sales*? I think someone's tinfoil hat is = > too tight.... -- Ian=20 You have considerably more faith in the authorities than I do. They seem to be much more interested in going after the classic computer enthusiast who buys a few light bulbs (or similar) than international terrorists. Oh well.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 3 13:28:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 19:28:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C06E697.8060906@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jun 2, 10 05:17:43 pm Message-ID: > > My question is which is really less environmentally friendly? Incandescent > > or Florescent? > > The Florescent bulbs the replace real bulbs. You throw away the > electronics. They could have been recycling light bulbs since the 70's. SOme years ago, I saw a CFL-like thing which consisted of an adaptor that fitted into the noraml (ES or BC) light socket and into which you plugged a Philips PL tube (I think) -- that being a U=-haped fluorescent lamp with a glow starter switch hidden in the base. The adapter contained the (iron core choke) ballast. Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the fluorescent tube when it fails? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 3 13:30:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 19:30:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 2, 10 06:44:38 pm Message-ID: > > Since in this case the first test is an easy one to do (namely measuring > > the AC voltage from the transformer secondary winding), I wouldn't even > > think of not doing it. > > Yes Tony... I have done all of that. The secondary is dropping to nearly > 6 VAC with only 5A load on the DC side of the bridge and 120VAC supplied I would think that transformer seems very marginal. Given that, I wouldn't try adding a boost transformer, I'd replace that transforemr with one that is more heavily rated. > to the primary. The ripple on the DC side is in excess of 1V with that > same 5A load. I have swapped in alternative filter caps temporarily > and see little improvement. I checked the bridge for shorted diodes or > excessive loss and it looks OK. I assume youy've also checked for open diodes in the bridge. If it was running as a half-wave rectifier you might have problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 3 13:33:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 19:33:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 2, 10 10:50:18 pm Message-ID: > > On 06/02/2010 11:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > More seriously, I much prefer to make mesaurements and do tests before > > changing anything. > That's crazy talk! Everyone knows that the way to repair equipment is > to swap all the parts first! Fortunately I am not 'everyone'. And I am proud to be 'crazy':-) > > Reminds me of Feynman's story about repairing someone's radio when he > was young. The guy was getting impatient because Feynman was just > sitting around doing nothing. Then Feynman swapped two tubes, and the > radio worked. They guy was amazed. "He fixes radios by *thinking*!" I have been compared to Feynman in that story several times before. I take it a a great honour to be compared to such a man (even though I know I am nowhere near up to his standard in physics). And yes, that is how I fix things. Do a few tests and _think_ about it. -tony From gklinger at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 14:49:08 2010 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 15:49:08 -0400 Subject: C64: Chameleon 64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian Lanning wrote: > But anyway, it acts like the CMD type accelerators, > with three different speeds: normal, CMD supercpu which I think is > 20x, and full blast. This is incorrect. The Chameleon can operate at ~1MHz like the original 6510, at double speed (~2MHz) and what you are describing as "full blast" which is approximately ~4MHz. And to clarify, the Chameleon is not in any way CMD SuperCPU compatible. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Jun 3 15:09:36 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 22:09:36 +0200 Subject: C64: Chameleon 64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100603200935.GA2266@Update.UU.SE> > Does anyone have any info on this? It looks like it will be > expensive (about 200 Euro), but I want one! > http://www.vesalia.de/e_chameleon.htm Yes, I spoke briefly with Jens Sch?nfeld last year at BITL in Stockholm. And asked about the chameleon, he did not want to make any promises asked me to get back. I did and got this reply in October: -------------------------------------------------------------------- The new prototype has just been finished half a day ago, but the bring-up will probably still take another six weeks. I doubt that we'll make it before xmas, as I have another huge project (outside the retro-world) in the works. Specs of Chameleon have improved in the meantime: IR reciever for CDTV remote control, PS2 mouse, PS2 keyboard, stand-alone mode without a C64, stereo-audio output, realtime clock and a debug-interface that I'll announce sometime in november, when the new prototype has been fully tested. The project got HUGE, and I have even hired an additional programmer to take care of internal details. Use-cases of the hardware have also improved a lot, it's something like the "ultimate FPGA platform" where we can even run other computers on (that's why I have added more connectors, using a taylor-made cable harness). We may start beta-testing with selected customers before xmas, but that requires "no surprises during prototype testing". I got a lot of feedback from German C64 users that the price of 219,- EUR is a bit high, so the improvements were always implemented with the target to also reduce cost. One prime target has been reached already: We will stay below the psycological 199,- EUR barrier (price including German sales tax of 19%). If you are active in some C64 forum where Chameleon is discussed, feel free to distribute this information and the pictures with reference to this eMail. ciao, -- Jens Sch?nfeld -------------------------------------------------------------------- The images he refers to are here: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/proto_bottomview.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/proto_sideview.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/proto_topview.jpg I mailed him once again and in April this year I got this: -------------------------------------------------------------------- You're writing just-in-time, as we have reached a goal yesterday afternoon: The current prototype was launched "without life support", meaning that a cold-start was made, only using the Chameleon's resources. Taking the prototype off the JTAG and logic analyzer connections was the last step before finalizing the PCB and getting it into production. There's hope for a start of the beta-phase in june of this year. ciao, -- Jens Sch?nfeld -------------------------------------------------------------------- So, I'm hoping for a release this year. I'm getting one! Cheers, Pontus. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 15:32:27 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 13:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: C64: Chameleon 64 In-Reply-To: <20100603200935.GA2266@Update.UU.SE> References: <20100603200935.GA2266@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2010, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > So, I'm hoping for a release this year. I'm getting one! Thanks for all that info. I just checked the cost in US Dollars, and at todays exchange rate it looks to be about $240. I'm going to start saving my money, as I want one when it's released! This is seriously cool! It seems like the only Classic Computing related stuff I buy or rescue anymore is Commodore related. But then I have more DEC stuff than I know what to do with. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 3 15:36:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 13:36:29 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C06E697.8060906@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jun 2, 10 05:17:43 pm, Message-ID: <4C07AFDD.25602.156C999@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2010 at 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: > Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh > electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the > fluorescent tube when it fails? I've seen those and, long before it became fashionable, the Circline- to-Edison adapters. Maybe not as compact as the "corkscrew" commodity lamps, but they lasted a long time and put out a reasonable amount of light. Iron-core ballast, also. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 15:36:39 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 15:36:39 -0500 Subject: C64: Chameleon 64 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 2:49 PM, Golan Klinger wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > >> But anyway, it acts like the CMD type accelerators, >> with three different speeds: normal, CMD supercpu which I think is >> 20x, and full blast. > > This is incorrect. The Chameleon can operate at ~1MHz like the > original 6510, at double speed (~2MHz) and what you are describing as > "full blast" which is approximately ~4MHz. And to clarify, the > Chameleon is not in any way CMD SuperCPU compatible. Apparently the SuperCPU has proprietary roms. :-/ brian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 3 15:37:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 13:37:08 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 2, 10 10:50:18 pm, Message-ID: <4C07B004.3734.157631A@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2010 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > I have been compared to Feynman in that story several times before. I > take it a a great honour to be compared to such a man (even though I > know I am nowhere near up to his standard in physics). Hmmm, I've been compared to Ted Bundy... --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 16:15:41 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 14:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C07AFDD.25602.156C999@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C06E697.8060906@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jun 2, 10 05:17:43 pm, <4C07AFDD.25602.156C999@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2010 at 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh >> electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the >> fluorescent tube when it fails? > > I've seen those and, long before it became fashionable, the Circline- > to-Edison adapters. Maybe not as compact as the "corkscrew" > commodity lamps, but they lasted a long time and put out a reasonable > amount of light. > > Iron-core ballast, also. Remember the shorter the life of the bulb, the more bulbs you can sell. Zane From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 3 16:23:25 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 22:23:25 +0100 Subject: VAX 4xxx DSSI drive sleds, drive covers and DSSI node plugs available, UK. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004701cb0363$01ba8e00$052faa00$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I am interested in a couple of these items. I am in Manchester, UK, send me an off-list email so I can discuss what I am interested in. My email address is "rob" and the domain is "jarratt.me.uk". Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > Sent: 02 June 2010 12:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: VAX 4xxx DSSI drive sleds, drive covers and DSSI node plugs > available, UK. > > Folks, > > Found a few of these whilst tidying up our surplus stock room, there's > 3 or > 4 plug-in drive sleds for RFxx ISEs, quite a few device cover/node plug > combos and a couple of TLZxx/RRDxx removeable device covers. We don't > want > any cash for them but you'd have to pay shipping from Cambridge UK, > pick up > obviously welcome. > > Oh, there's a metric buttload of the QBUS slot covers too, though I > suspect > they'll end up in the recycling. > > Cheers! > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 3 16:33:30 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 17:33:30 -0400 Subject: Authenticity opinions References: <4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 2, 10 10:50:18 pm, <4C07B004.3734.157631A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 4:37 PM Subject: Re: Authenticity opinions > On 3 Jun 2010 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I have been compared to Feynman in that story several times before. I >> take it a a great honour to be compared to such a man (even though I >> know I am nowhere near up to his standard in physics). > > Hmmm, I've been compared to Ted Bundy... > > --Chuck > Why, are you a serial "port" killer or something? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 16:50:22 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 14:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 2, 10 10:50:18 pm, <4C07B004.3734.157631A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100603144651.H79728@shell.lmi.net> > Hmmm, I've been compared to Ted Bundy... I've been compared to Al Bundy... (I've always thought that Ed O'Neill would be a great actor for the role of Arthur Dent. Jacqueline Pearce for Trillian, Howard Stern for Zaphod Beeblebrox) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 3 16:49:11 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 22:49:11 +0100 Subject: Portable PDF viewers In-Reply-To: <8E075133-8EA7-4263-A1B0-3199BB11E3BE@gmail.com> References: <1275416512.586004promail.ptd.net>, , <4C075A92.6020302@mail.msu.edu> <8E075133-8EA7-4263-A1B0-3199BB11E3BE@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C082357.9070902@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/06/2010 13:55, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On Jun 3, 2010, at 14:36, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> itunes often has paid apps for free on select days, but there's no way to >> know which day or which apps come up ahead of time. > > There's an app for that! > It's called PandoraBox, and while it won't tell you ahead of time when certain apps will be free (or discounted), it does give you a list of currently free/discounted apps. And you can add apps to a favourites list which you check at regular intervals to keep an eye on any price drops. There's also a website and RSS feed called FreeAppAlert http://freeappalert.com/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jun 3 17:48:03 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 15:48:03 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100603144651.H79728@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 2, 10 10:50:18 pm, <4C07B004.3734.157631A@cclist.sydex.com> <20100603144651.H79728@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 2:50 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Authenticity opinions > > > Hmmm, I've been compared to Ted Bundy... > > I've been compared to Al Bundy... > > (I've always thought that Ed O'Neill would be a great actor for the > role > of Arthur Dent. Jacqueline Pearce for Trillian, Howard Stern for > Zaphod > Beeblebrox) > Howard Stern as Zaphod - brilliant! Scary. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 18:00:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 16:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 2, 10 10:50:18 pm, <4C07B004.3734.157631A@cclist.sydex.com> <20100603144651.H79728@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100603155450.X89502@shell.lmi.net> > > I've been compared to Al Bundy... > > (I've always thought that Ed O'Neill would be a great actor for the > > role of Arthur Dent. Jacqueline Pearce for Trillian, Howard Stern for > > Zaphod Beeblebrox) On Thu, 3 Jun 2010, Ian King wrote: > Howard Stern as Zaphod - brilliant! Scary. Roseanne Barr as the Vogon captain (maybe Tom Arnold and John Goodman as Vogon guards?) Paul Darrow as Ford Prefect? I'm torn between Sean Connery and Christopher Lloyd as Slartibartfast. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jun 3 18:10:29 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 16:10:29 -0700 Subject: Recasting HGttG (was RE: Authenticity opinions) In-Reply-To: <20100603155450.X89502@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C07429A.7010802@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 2, 10 10:50:18 pm, <4C07B004.3734.157631A@cclist.sydex.com> <20100603144651.H79728@shell.lmi.net> <20100603155450.X89502@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2010 4:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Authenticity opinions > > > > I've been compared to Al Bundy... > > > (I've always thought that Ed O'Neill would be a great actor for the > > > role of Arthur Dent. Jacqueline Pearce for Trillian, Howard Stern > for > > > Zaphod Beeblebrox) > > On Thu, 3 Jun 2010, Ian King wrote: > > Howard Stern as Zaphod - brilliant! Scary. > > Roseanne Barr as the Vogon captain > (maybe Tom Arnold and John Goodman as Vogon guards?) > Too scary - and too obvious. Could we just go with Anthony Hopkins in "Hannibal Lector mode"? > Paul Darrow as Ford Prefect? > > I'm torn between Sean Connery and Christopher Lloyd as Slartibartfast. Lloyd, hands down. IMHO Connery doesn't have the (blunt-edged) tool-of-fate role in him - he's too much a mover, not a shaken. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 3 18:25:46 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 00:25:46 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> On 03/06/10 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: > Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh > electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the fluorescent > tube when it fails? Profit. The Engineer Says: "I just made a lightbulb that lasts a million hours!" The MBA Says: "NO! Don't tell ANYONE about it. It'll kill the sales of our existing two-thousand-hour-lifetime products!" The Engineer Says: "What if we split the tube from the ballast? Then if one fails, the customer can keep the other, working bit?" The MBA Says: "People don't want to buy two separate parts. Also it's more profitable if they have to swap the whole thing." I used to have a couple of first-gen "energy saver" fluorescent bulbs that were sent to me by (IIRC) National Power as part of some promotion or contest. They were two-piece units -- you had the screw or bayonet-fit ballast, and a separate, removable (via a 4-pin plug and latch arrangement) fluorescent tube. So when the fluoro tube died, you just bought a new one and swapped it over. Equally you could buy a new ballast, but only as part of a set with a new tube... I haven't seen anything like this for ages -- the Philips Softone bulbs are one solid, welded unit (they're built like laptop PSUs, no screws at all), and so are the GE energy-saver lamps if memory serves. I wonder how many "broken" bulbs get chucked in the bin that could be resurrected with either a new light or a new ballast. Seems they could be refurbished fairly easily if they were designed as modular units... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 18:34:27 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 16:34:27 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> References: ,<4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk ---snip--- > > I used to have a couple of first-gen "energy saver" fluorescent bulbs > that were sent to me by (IIRC) National Power as part of some promotion > or contest. They were two-piece units -- you had the screw or > bayonet-fit ballast, and a separate, removable (via a 4-pin plug and > latch arrangement) fluorescent tube. So when the fluoro tube died, you > just bought a new one and swapped it over. Equally you could buy a new > ballast, but only as part of a set with a new tube... > ---snip--- Hi I had a few of these. 100% of my failures were the base and not the bulb. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 18:36:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 16:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100603162913.G89502@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > The MBA Says: "People don't want to buy two separate parts. Also it's > more profitable if they have to swap the whole thing." It's OK to have the ballast and tube available separately, so long as THIS year/month's tube doesn't fit last year/month's ballast. People might even pay more for modularity, but the industry will continually obsolete each item as soon as it is sold. Ever ask a Fry's employee for a serial printer cable? Or ask ANYTHING about any OS prior to XP and OS/X? How about CX toner cartridges? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 3 19:07:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 17:07:21 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C07E149.30743.217D8A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2010 at 0:25, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I wonder how many "broken" bulbs get chucked in the bin that could be > resurrected with either a new light or a new ballast. Seems they could > be refurbished fairly easily if they were designed as modular units... Dunno, but I like to salvage the electronics out of the bases. Some diodes, transistors, capacitors and inductors that just *might* be useful for something else--someday. So I've got a pile of the innards. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 3 20:26:31 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 02:26:31 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100603162913.G89502@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> <20100603162913.G89502@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C085647.5040803@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 00:36, Fred Cisin wrote: > Ever ask a Fry's employee for a serial printer cable? No, but I've asked a Maplins employee for a Y-cable to split a 5.25" floppy drive power connector into a 5.25" and a 3.5" connector. "Durrrrh, I don't think they make those, it'd, like, overload your power supply." "They're a standard part, and you list them on your website." "That must be one of our competitors' websites, like, trying to pass themselves off as us and, like, confuse our customers..." I had a walk around and found a Y-cable, and the "Computer Department Sales Expert" was still wittering on about how my PSU was going to blow up... Idiot. I actually wanted to use it as an adapter -- I have a Sharkoon DriveLink, which is a neat little box that lets you hook an ATA (3.5" or 2.5") or SATA drive straight up to a USB port. It came with a nifty little power supply which supplies 5V and 12V.... on a 5.25"-floppy-style Molex connector. That power supply is very handy for powering disc drives for DiscFerret test runs :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 3 20:33:20 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 02:33:20 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C07E149.30743.217D8A2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> <4C07E149.30743.217D8A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C0857E0.1030905@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 01:07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Dunno, but I like to salvage the electronics out of the bases. Some > diodes, transistors, capacitors and inductors that just *might* be > useful for something else--someday. So I've got a pile of the > innards. Transformer cores and bobbins are often very handy (as are ferrite toroids). I've been known to use them to wind custom inductors for projects (especially switchmode power supplies). Great for 1-offs. Speaking of which, I could do with a couple of RM-cores, clips and winding bobbins... used my last one a few weeks ago. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 3 20:45:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 18:45:24 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C085647.5040803@philpem.me.uk> References: , <20100603162913.G89502@shell.lmi.net>, <4C085647.5040803@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C07F844.16978.2719DA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2010 at 2:26, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 04/06/10 00:36, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Ever ask a Fry's employee for a serial printer cable? The sad thing is that, at one time, if you asked a Fry's employee for a parallel printer cable, he might have asked "Centronics or Dataproducts?". That was at a time where, if you said "Fry's", everyone thought you meant the place where you brought groceries. When it first opened, Fry's was a wonderful place where you could find all sorts of things, such as VME bus cards. That aspect didn't last too long, however. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 3 20:53:33 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 02:53:33 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C07F844.16978.2719DA7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100603162913.G89502@shell.lmi.net>, <4C085647.5040803@philpem.me.uk> <4C07F844.16978.2719DA7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C085C9D.8000805@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 02:45, Chuck Guzis wrote: > When it first opened, Fry's was a wonderful place where you could > find all sorts of things, such as VME bus cards. That aspect didn't > last too long, however. Maplins had the same sort of 'air' about it. It was about the only place you could go at two o'clock on a Sunday afternoon and get that one resistor or whatever that you needed to finish off your project. "M4K7, quantity five, and M8K1, quantity three please." (M was the part-prefix for a 0.7W "Min Res" metal film resistor, but they were the same size as 0.25W MF / CF resistors) Hmm. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 21:50:21 2010 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 19:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data I/O Programmer Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <600915.25056.qm@web111316.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Have a Data I/O System 19 programmer for about 10 years and use it quite frequently to program old bipolar PROMs which newer programmers can't handle, anyway a week ago it powers up with a constant beep and and all the lights turn on, any ideas what could be wrong? Is there something that normally goes on these units? thanks steve From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 00:17:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 01:17:35 -0400 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved Message-ID: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> I've just taken possession of a small IBM System/370 mainframe, and I thought I'd share the joy. This system has been sitting in North Carolina waiting for me for about six months; I've only now been able to arrange for transport due to financial restrictions. I've got 450 pictures and nearly a gigabyte of video to sort through, but here's a quick series of shots, including one or two with yours truly striking a pose: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/s370/ The system is a member of the 9370 family. It consists of a 9375 processor, five 9335-B01 disk drives (824MB/ea), two 9335-A01 controllers, and a 3430 tape drive. Everything was shrink-wrapped and sealed with IBM anti-tamper stickers. All the cabling is present; it's all coiled up in the back of the processor cabinet. I also received a mountain of documentation which I've not yet gone through. Everything is absolutely pristine save for some tape residue. I broke the seals and unwrapped the system personally, with camera rolling and heart pounding. Thanks to my friend George Adkins for the Herculean effort of loading it onto a truck in North Carolina and bringing it down here, and my friends James Sharp and Pat Sherrill for assisting with the unload. If I can get it running, I'd like to run VM/370 and/or MVS on it. It originally ran VSE/SP. On that note...does anyone have an appropriate console terminal for this system that might be available? I believe that'd be a 3215, or perhaps an early (C.U.T. protocol I think) 3270. I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jun 4 00:32:20 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 00:32:20 -0500 Subject: Semi-OT: Apple iPad In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4C088FE4.7080100@vaxen.net> I know they're a bit bigger than an iPad, but used POS/industrial systems regularly show up on the surplus PC sites. My company recently bought several P4-based units that have a 17" touchscreen monitor, 512MB or 1GB memory, 200GB-ish hard drives, and standard-form-factor mini-ITX boards for less than $100/each. Wired ethernet, 802.11G, and kbd/mouse/USB/external display connections. The whole unit is about 18" x 13" x 3.5". I tried to order one to use in my shop for reading manuals, displaying design drawings and measurements, googling problems, and listening to iTunes, but the site had already sold out. Doc Shipley Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm not in a hurry either. It was an idea that popped into my head, and I > wanted to now how well it would work. While it would be nice to use a > device of its formfactor for this purpose, this thread has pretty much > convinced me against this. I'll be looking into setting up either the SGI > O2, or a Sun Workstation for this purpose assuming my remaining SVGA CRT > still works. If not I might start looking locally for a used LCD (I'm > likely going to do that anyway as I could use one or two). > > Zane From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jun 4 00:43:43 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 00:43:43 -0500 Subject: Down for the count [was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK] In-Reply-To: References: <457DF09E12BC4073A8E2425214470DFE@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4C08928F.3040107@vaxen.net> Liam Proven wrote: > On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 8:19 PM, wrote: >> Liam Proven [lproven at gmail.com] wrote: >>> On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 7:00 PM, wrote: >>>> I guess they'd at least be able cope with binary (at least for >>>> sufficiently small numbers). >>> Apparently not. >> Let me try again ... they can do 00, they can do 01, then they get >> stuck. >> That's "sufficiently small" in my book :-) > > Possibly. The thing that is so interesting about them is that in some > cases they use the same word that normally denotes "one" to indicate a > group which in totality is smaller than a single instance of a > comparable entity. > > 2 small fishes = 1; 1 big fish = 2 Maybe the unit of measure is the meal? Doc, only half-joking From pinball at telus.net Thu Jun 3 17:40:47 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 15:40:47 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C082F6F.5080701@telus.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>> My question is which is really less environmentally friendly? Incandescent >>> or Florescent? >>> >> The Florescent bulbs the replace real bulbs. You throw away the >> electronics. They could have been recycling light bulbs since the 70's. >> > > SOme years ago, I saw a CFL-like thing which consisted of an adaptor that > fitted into the noraml (ES or BC) light socket and into which you plugged > a Philips PL tube (I think) -- that being a U=-haped fluorescent lamp > with a glow starter switch hidden in the base. The adapter contained the > (iron core choke) ballast. > > Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh > electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the fluorescent > tube when it fails? > > -tony > > CFL electronics fail too, in fact that seems to fail before the actual tube gives up...they don't like being base up for one thing. Seems to me that the tube should be able to last a long time...I have a Neon Christmas tree that was made in the 1930's by my grandfathers employees that stil works just fine - why can't a fluorescent bulb that has no heater last indefinetly? John :-#(# From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jun 3 19:18:06 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 19:18:06 -0500 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100604001806.GK29141@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (06/03/2010 at 06:35AM -0700), dwight elvey wrote: > > > > From: chrise at pobox.com > ---snip--- > > > > > I just received two new transformers to consider as a replacement for > > the original. The problem with putting a booster on the primary of the > > original is that it also raises the 24VAC secondary resulting in the +/- > > 12VDC rails going well above 16V. There's quite a few things in the > ---snip--- > > Hi > > Is there an air gap between the outside of the windings > and the frame core? If so, you could add a few turns for the > 8V winding. > > Often there is a thick cardboard like cover over the winding that > can be carefully cut from between the core and the outside of the > windings and the core. One just has to be careful not to > break the primary windings as they are quite fine. > > The windings typically go under this outer cover and then are > spliced with the insulated wire to feed out of the transformer. Hi Dwight. No, the transformer is completely enclosed in a metal shell. No access to any of the windings. -- Chris Elmquist From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 21:49:55 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 21:49:55 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know about you guys, I've already hid some away, "dollar tree" here in parts of the us sells a pack of them for $1... On 6/2/10, Zane H. Healy wrote: > What gets me is that we're supposed to pay big money to dispose of > Florescent Lightbulbs. Our local garbage company now charges anywhere from > $0.75 to $1.25 per bulb! > > This does remind me though, I should stock up on certain Incandescent > bulbs. They do serve purposes that make them far better than Florescent at > times. > > My question is which is really less environmentally friendly? Incandescent > or Florescent? > > Zane > > > > > On Wed, 2 Jun 2010, Ian King wrote: > >> Are you kidding? We can't fund enough people to deal with important >> things like education, health and public safety, and people really think >> we are paying people to watch *lightbulb sales*? I think someone's >> tinfoil hat is too tight.... -- Ian > >> ________________________________________ >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On >> Behalf Of William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 2:49 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK >> >>> I cannot find the primary legislation, and I bet if I could I'd >>> regret it :-) >>> >>> Here's one retailer's opinion: >>> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/info/incandescent/ >>> >>> Here's another actually selling them: >>> http://www.lyco.co.uk/Light-Bulbs/Regular-Light-Bulbs/Rough-Service-Bulb >>> s/sc1340.aspx >> >> What I have heard from all this lightbulb talk, as well as other >> issues - in the US, everything you read is crap, unless you are >> looking at the text of the law. There are many people with axes to >> grind, and will even use lightbulbs to do it. >> >>> Apparently in the US the sales of alternatives (like rough service >>> bulbs) are being >>> monitored and action may be taken if sales go up too much. or maybe not, >>> who knows. >> >> Lightbulb cops? >> >> No, there is no monitoring. >> >>> Same as the analgesics packaging rules: if you make it inconvenient >>> to go around the rules, most people won't be bothered. Job done. >> >> Pretty much like the various copy protection systems software has used >> over the years. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> > From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jun 3 21:57:51 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 21:57:51 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: it is also worth noting the light nazis run by the (political statements removed) have also pulled the plug on mercury vapor lighting, outlawing the repair maintenance and installation on them, once they die you have to buy a different one, now I had to replace my 150w MV light with a 65w-300+ equiv. fluorescent yard blaster that just isn't as covering. On 6/2/10, Zane H. Healy wrote: > What gets me is that we're supposed to pay big money to dispose of > Florescent Lightbulbs. Our local garbage company now charges anywhere from > $0.75 to $1.25 per bulb! > > This does remind me though, I should stock up on certain Incandescent > bulbs. They do serve purposes that make them far better than Florescent at > times. > > My question is which is really less environmentally friendly? Incandescent > or Florescent? > > Zane > > > > > On Wed, 2 Jun 2010, Ian King wrote: > >> Are you kidding? We can't fund enough people to deal with important >> things like education, health and public safety, and people really think >> we are paying people to watch *lightbulb sales*? I think someone's >> tinfoil hat is too tight.... -- Ian > >> ________________________________________ >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On >> Behalf Of William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2010 2:49 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK >> >>> I cannot find the primary legislation, and I bet if I could I'd >>> regret it :-) >>> >>> Here's one retailer's opinion: >>> http://www.lightbulbs-direct.com/info/incandescent/ >>> >>> Here's another actually selling them: >>> http://www.lyco.co.uk/Light-Bulbs/Regular-Light-Bulbs/Rough-Service-Bulb >>> s/sc1340.aspx >> >> What I have heard from all this lightbulb talk, as well as other >> issues - in the US, everything you read is crap, unless you are >> looking at the text of the law. There are many people with axes to >> grind, and will even use lightbulbs to do it. >> >>> Apparently in the US the sales of alternatives (like rough service >>> bulbs) are being >>> monitored and action may be taken if sales go up too much. or maybe not, >>> who knows. >> >> Lightbulb cops? >> >> No, there is no monitoring. >> >>> Same as the analgesics packaging rules: if you make it inconvenient >>> to go around the rules, most people won't be bothered. Job done. >> >> Pretty much like the various copy protection systems software has used >> over the years. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> > From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 4 01:03:22 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:03:22 +0200 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <830824ec0d736b5dbb4c229b56aafa91.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Nice! I know how you are feeling, I had the same when we picked up 2 11/70 machines in Italy. Like a child in a candy shop when everything is free. But, the Sun (6800 model?) is a bit odd? Ed > > I've just taken possession of a small IBM System/370 mainframe, and I > thought I'd share the joy. This system has been sitting in North > Carolina waiting for me for about six months; I've only now been able to > arrange for transport due to financial restrictions. I've got 450 > pictures and nearly a gigabyte of video to sort through, but here's a > quick series of shots, including one or two with yours truly striking a > pose: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/s370/ > > The system is a member of the 9370 family. It consists of a 9375 > processor, five 9335-B01 disk drives (824MB/ea), two 9335-A01 > controllers, and a 3430 tape drive. Everything was shrink-wrapped and > sealed with IBM anti-tamper stickers. All the cabling is present; it's > all coiled up in the back of the processor cabinet. I also received a > mountain of documentation which I've not yet gone through. Everything > is absolutely pristine save for some tape residue. I broke the seals > and unwrapped the system personally, with camera rolling and heart > pounding. > > Thanks to my friend George Adkins for the Herculean effort of loading > it onto a truck in North Carolina and bringing it down here, and my > friends James Sharp and Pat Sherrill for assisting with the unload. > > If I can get it running, I'd like to run VM/370 and/or MVS on it. It > originally ran VSE/SP. On that note...does anyone have an appropriate > console terminal for this system that might be available? I believe > that'd be a 3215, or perhaps an early (C.U.T. protocol I think) 3270. > > I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 01:14:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 02:14:30 -0400 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <830824ec0d736b5dbb4c229b56aafa91.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> <830824ec0d736b5dbb4c229b56aafa91.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C0899C6.4040202@neurotica.com> On 6/4/10 2:03 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Nice! Thank you! > I know how you are feeling, I had the same when we picked up 2 11/70 > machines in Italy. Like a child in a candy shop when everything is free. Oh, 11/70s...I do love those systems! Do you have pictures to share? > But, the Sun (6800 model?) is a bit odd? It's a 4800; that system belongs to my employer. I obtained it locally, configured it here, and am shipping it to a datacenter in Wisconsin. I have two other of my employer's 4800s here, along with two 6800s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Jun 4 02:06:03 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:06:03 +0100 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hell yes!! What a find! How do you supply the power and keep a thing like that cool? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 04 June 2010 06:18 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved I've just taken possession of a small IBM System/370 mainframe, and I thought I'd share the joy. This system has been sitting in North Carolina waiting for me for about six months; I've only now been able to arrange for transport due to financial restrictions. I've got 450 pictures and nearly a gigabyte of video to sort through, but here's a quick series of shots, including one or two with yours truly striking a pose: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/s370/ The system is a member of the 9370 family. It consists of a 9375 processor, five 9335-B01 disk drives (824MB/ea), two 9335-A01 controllers, and a 3430 tape drive. Everything was shrink-wrapped and sealed with IBM anti-tamper stickers. All the cabling is present; it's all coiled up in the back of the processor cabinet. I also received a mountain of documentation which I've not yet gone through. Everything is absolutely pristine save for some tape residue. I broke the seals and unwrapped the system personally, with camera rolling and heart pounding. Thanks to my friend George Adkins for the Herculean effort of loading it onto a truck in North Carolina and bringing it down here, and my friends James Sharp and Pat Sherrill for assisting with the unload. If I can get it running, I'd like to run VM/370 and/or MVS on it. It originally ran VSE/SP. On that note...does anyone have an appropriate console terminal for this system that might be available? I believe that'd be a 3215, or perhaps an early (C.U.T. protocol I think) 3270. I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Jun 4 07:35:19 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:35:19 -0400 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Congrats Dave! That looks like your going to have fun. Rob On Jun 4, 2010, at 1:17 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I've just taken possession of a small IBM System/370 mainframe, and I > thought I'd share the joy. Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 08:04:14 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:04:14 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C08F9CE.5090308@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > My question is which is really less environmentally friendly? Incandescent > or Florescent? I've got no hard figures; I've tried asking over the years, and nobody seems to know for sure. My gut feeling though is that fluorescent are a lot worse when you think of the 'big picture' and include sourcing of the materials, manufacture, shipping*, and eventual safe disposal. * the shipping's perhaps irrelevant because I bet that incandescents are made overseas too - but I suspect that they could be made locally far more easily than fluorescents if the desire was there, reducing shipping impact. I've had plenty of fluorescents that barely outlast incandescents, despite manufacturers' MTBF claims. Plenty more that exhibit weakened output after a few months. All of them seem to have output even when new that's vastly less than the "incandescent equivalent" rating claimed on the packaging. (Waters are even further muddied up here in northern MN where we have electric heating that's on for over half the year, because during those months any energy that bulbs lose as heat is still doing useful work; there's no waste) cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 4 09:29:16 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 07:29:16 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C08F9CE.5090308@gmail.com> References: <4C08F9CE.5090308@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 8:04 AM -0500 6/4/10, Jules Richardson wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>My question is which is really less environmentally friendly? Incandescent >>or Florescent? > >I've got no hard figures; I've tried asking over the years, and >nobody seems to know for sure. My gut feeling though is that >fluorescent are a lot worse when you think of the 'big picture' and >include sourcing of the materials, manufacture, shipping*, and >eventual safe disposal. That is my feeling as well, the question reminds me of the Toyota Prius and other Hybrids. Which is less environmentally friendly, a new one of those, or the '92 Toyota Camary we have. People don't take into consideration what has to be done to manufacture these "environmentally friendly" products, and all the icky stuff that is used. >I've had plenty of fluorescents that barely outlast incandescents, >despite manufacturers' MTBF claims. Plenty more that exhibit >weakened output after a few months. All of them seem to have output >even when new that's vastly less than the "incandescent equivalent" >rating claimed on the packaging. I believe the Compact Fluorescents are also more sensitive to how many times you turn them on and off. We have 3 kids, ages 2-7, I try to put Incandescents where they'll be playing with the lights, and Compact Fluorescents in other places. I've also read that the manufacturers' claims on energy savings are less than accurate. Apparently they cause some sort of problem for traditional electric meters? I don't know how accurate any of that is, it seems a bit odd, touching in the realms of urban legend. >(Waters are even further muddied up here in northern MN where we >have electric heating that's on for over half the year, because >during those months any energy that bulbs lose as heat is still >doing useful work; there's no waste) This is actually one of the main uses I see for keeping a good stash of Incandescents around. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 4 09:38:04 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 07:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 4, 10 07:29:16 am" Message-ID: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> > > I've had plenty of fluorescents that barely outlast incandescents, > > despite manufacturers' MTBF claims. Plenty more that exhibit > > weakened output after a few months. All of them seem to have output > > even when new that's vastly less than the "incandescent equivalent" > > rating claimed on the packaging. > > I believe the Compact Fluorescents are also more sensitive to how > many times you turn them on and off. We have 3 kids, ages 2-7, I try > to put Incandescents where they'll be playing with the lights, and > Compact Fluorescents in other places. I use lights with multiple fixtures and put in a mix. And I've certainly got my incandescent stockpile. That at least gives me the wider spectrum and warmth partially. Meanwhile, the California State Ass'y voted to ban plastic bags, so that we can all either cut down trees and pay a nickel each, or pay the store a couple bucks for cheapo 'reusable' bags that tear at the slightest glance. I'll just be making more frequent trips for smaller shopping lists to avoid using bags at all. Environmental conservation is fun! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- No matter how cynical I get, I can't keep up. -- Lily Tomlin --------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 4 09:53:46 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 07:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 4, 10 01:17:35 am" Message-ID: <201006041453.o54ErkR0014702@floodgap.com> > I've just taken possession of a small IBM System/370 mainframe, and I > thought I'd share the joy. This system has been sitting in North > Carolina waiting for me for about six months; I've only now been able to > arrange for transport due to financial restrictions. I've got 450 > pictures and nearly a gigabyte of video to sort through, but here's a > quick series of shots, including one or two with yours truly striking a > pose: Beautiful! Mazeltov! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everyone is entitled to my opinion. -- James Carpenter --------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 10:17:48 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 16:17:48 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > I've had plenty of fluorescents that barely outlast incandescents, >> > despite manufacturers' MTBF claims. Plenty more that exhibit >> > weakened output after a few months. All of them seem to have output >> > even when new that's vastly less than the "incandescent equivalent" >> > rating claimed on the packaging. >> >> I believe the Compact Fluorescents are also more sensitive to how >> many times you turn them on and off. ?We have 3 kids, ages 2-7, I try >> to put Incandescents where they'll be playing with the lights, and >> Compact Fluorescents in other places. > > I use lights with multiple fixtures and put in a mix. And I've certainly > got my incandescent stockpile. That at least gives me the wider spectrum > and warmth partially. > > Meanwhile, the California State Ass'y voted to ban plastic bags, so that > we can all either cut down trees and pay a nickel each, or pay the store > a couple bucks for cheapo 'reusable' bags that tear at the slightest glance. > I'll just be making more frequent trips for smaller shopping lists to avoid > using bags at all. Environmental conservation is fun! Huh? Why? I never use plastic or paper bags. I just take a backpack or a set of bike panniers (or in extremis both) to the store. Much easier and comfier to carry, too, and they get used hundreds or thousands of times. And yet I see thousands of people filling tends of thousands of plastic carrier bags with their shopping every time. Why? They are small, awkward, flimsy, harder to carry, a pain to deal with and environmentally disastrous. Everyone travels sometimes. *Everyone* has *some* luggage. Use it for your shopping! Disposable bags are just plain evil, nasty and stupid. I'd like to see a surcharge of 10-20% or ?5 an item on all disposable grocery packaging, whichever value is the greater. A tax on idiots too damned dumb to take a bag to the shops with them. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jun 4 10:22:58 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:22:58 -0700 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201006040822.58985.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 03 June 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: --snip-- > > I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) What a find! Pristine and complete! Congratulations!!! Best to you at getting it up and running - esp. VM/370 and MVS. However, the "current" VSE/SP is also an excellent OS... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 4 10:26:17 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 08:26:17 -0700 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C091B19.D97C71AF@cs.ubc.ca> Not being very familiar with later-model IBM stuff, what vintage is this stuff? early 90's perhaps? ... and JOOC, what is the big black IBM cabinet to the left in the last photo? Dave McGuire wrote: > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/s370/ > > The system is a member of the 9370 family. It consists of a 9375 > processor, five 9335-B01 disk drives (824MB/ea), two 9335-A01 > controllers, and a 3430 tape drive. Everything was shrink-wrapped and > sealed with IBM anti-tamper stickers. All the cabling is present; it's > all coiled up in the back of the processor cabinet. I also received a > mountain of documentation which I've not yet gone through. Everything > is absolutely pristine save for some tape residue. I broke the seals > and unwrapped the system personally, with camera rolling and heart pounding. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 10:30:09 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 10:30:09 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C091C01.60206@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I believe the Compact Fluorescents are also more sensitive to how >> many times you turn them on and off. That could be; I don't suppose that incandescents like lots of heat/cool cycles, but it's possibly worse for CFLs. > Meanwhile, the California State Ass'y voted to ban plastic bags, so that > we can all either cut down trees and pay a nickel each, or pay the store > a couple bucks for cheapo 'reusable' bags that tear at the slightest glance. > I'll just be making more frequent trips for smaller shopping lists to avoid > using bags at all. I've not known those bags to tear much - but every one I've looked at is made in far-flung lands. Until they're made and shipped locally, I'm not sure there's any point in using them. > Environmental conservation is fun! If it could be decoupled from politics, I suspect we'd start seeing ideas that actually made sense - but until that happens, scoring points by brainwashing the population into believing that something is good seems to be more important. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 10:36:43 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 10:36:43 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Disposable bags are just plain evil, nasty and stupid. We get through a lot for use as trash bags; if they vanish, I'm just going to end up buying more proper trash bags. The system's not *quite* in balance, because the majority of US stores insist on packing your purchases for you, and use *far* more bags than they need to; if I were allowed and expected to pack stuff myself here (as I was in the UK), I think I could probably re-use as much as I took home with me. > I'd like to see > a surcharge of 10-20% or ?5 an item on all disposable grocery > packaging, whichever value is the greater. A ban on those darn blister packs would be more useful, I think - I recycle the plastic, but I really don't *need* a packaging footprint the size of a book just to surround some trivial little item. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 10:38:13 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 10:38:13 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C091C01.60206@gmail.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091C01.60206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C091DE5.20307@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > I've not known those bags to tear much - but every one I've looked at is > made in far-flung lands. Until they're made and shipped locally, I'm not > sure there's any point in using them. Addendum: I really do mean "made" - not "ship the fabric from China and stitch it together here" :-) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 4 10:37:35 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:37:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Jun 4, 10 10:36:43 am" Message-ID: <201006041537.o54FbZq3003998@floodgap.com> > > Disposable bags are just plain evil, nasty and stupid. > > We get through a lot for use as trash bags; if they vanish, I'm just going to > end up buying more proper trash bags. > > The system's not *quite* in balance, because the majority of US stores insist > on packing your purchases for you, and use *far* more bags than they need to; +2. I use them both for bagging my own stuff and as liners in the bathroom. Also, I have to repeatedly tell them I don't need my milk gallons in double bags (or bags at all). But as usual the kneejerk reaction of the political class is ban it all, damn the consequences. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 10:44:08 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:44:08 -0400 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C091B19.D97C71AF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> <4C091B19.D97C71AF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C091F48.6040509@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Not being very familiar with later-model IBM stuff, what vintage is this stuff? > early 90's perhaps? Mid-to-late '80s. > ... and JOOC, what is the big black IBM cabinet to the left in the last photo? IBM z890, I believe. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 10:46:14 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:46:14 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C091FC6.9060305@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > A ban on those darn blister packs would be more useful, I think - I > recycle the plastic, but I really don't *need* a packaging footprint the > size of a book just to surround some trivial little item. Plus, they're hard (to the point of infuriating) to open. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 4 10:51:21 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C091FC6.9060305@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jun 4, 10 11:46:14 am" Message-ID: <201006041551.o54FpLgO007090@floodgap.com> > > A ban on those darn blister packs would be more useful, I think - I > > recycle the plastic, but I really don't *need* a packaging footprint the > > size of a book just to surround some trivial little item. > > Plus, they're hard (to the point of infuriating) to open. http://www.floodgap.com/iv/572 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense. -------------- From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jun 4 10:55:55 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:55:55 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> On 6/4/2010 11:36 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > The system's not *quite* in balance, because the majority of US stores > insist on packing your purchases for you, and use *far* more bags than > they need to; if I were allowed and expected to pack stuff myself here > (as I was in the UK), I think I could probably re-use as much as I took > home with me. The majority of the major chain stores here in Pittsburgh have newer "convenient" self-checkout isles and have drastically reduced the number of clerks and baggers(which has a direct negative influence on the local job market). As a result, 90% of the people have to do their own bagging. How shifting the burden of trouble and work from their paid employees to the customer is somehow more convenient for the customer, I'll never know. I make it a point to use the clerks whenever possible --- let them ring up the items and bag it. I guarantee any payroll savings goes directly in the pockets of the owner, instead of reducing the price that I pay for the food. Now if you want to compensate me a couple percent off my total by doing the work myself, I might be more inclined to use them. Keith From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jun 4 10:58:13 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 08:58:13 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <201006041537.o54FbZq3003998@floodgap.com> References: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Jun 4, 10 10:36:43 am",<201006041537.o54FbZq3003998@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I often get a funny look from the checker when I respond with, "No bag," and juggle four or five items for the few yards it takes to get to my vehicle. When I see that look, I give them a glare of defiance and say something like, "I am NOT ashamed to buy orange juice!" Some get the joke and smile, others just hope I'll leave quietly. What irks me is when they just start stuffing my items into a plastic bag without asking, and then look put-upon when I tell them to take it back out. What amuses me is when I'm buying only one item, that's in a bag, and they want to put it in... another bag. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser [spectre at floodgap.com] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 8:37 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > > Disposable bags are just plain evil, nasty and stupid. > > We get through a lot for use as trash bags; if they vanish, I'm just going to > end up buying more proper trash bags. > > The system's not *quite* in balance, because the majority of US stores insist > on packing your purchases for you, and use *far* more bags than they need to; +2. I use them both for bagging my own stuff and as liners in the bathroom. Also, I have to repeatedly tell them I don't need my milk gallons in double bags (or bags at all). But as usual the kneejerk reaction of the political class is ban it all, damn the consequences. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jun 4 11:11:34 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 12:11:34 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Jun 4, 10 10:36:43 am",<201006041537.o54FbZq3003998@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C0925B6.7020002@verizon.net> On 6/4/2010 11:58 AM, Ian King wrote: > When I see that look, I give them a glare of defiance and say something like, "I am NOT ashamed to buy orange juice!" Some get the joke and smile, others just hope I'll leave quietly. Hahaha. This reminds me of my canned response I used to use when restaurants used to have smoking and non-smoking sections. Hostess: "What's your smoking preference?" me: "crack" (as in form of cocaine) Only the smarter of the bunch actually got the joke, and even a smaller minority laughed. :) Oh well. I think a couple clerks smiled when I bought, on Valentine's day, flowers, a box of chocolates, a card, and a box of condoms. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 12:05:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 13:05:23 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C093253.1030406@neurotica.com> On 6/4/10 11:55 AM, Keith M wrote: >> The system's not *quite* in balance, because the majority of US stores >> insist on packing your purchases for you, and use *far* more bags than >> they need to; if I were allowed and expected to pack stuff myself here >> (as I was in the UK), I think I could probably re-use as much as I took >> home with me. > > The majority of the major chain stores here in Pittsburgh have newer > "convenient" self-checkout isles and have drastically reduced the number > of clerks and baggers(which has a direct negative influence on the local > job market). As a result, 90% of the people have to do their own bagging. > > How shifting the burden of trouble and work from their paid employees to > the customer is somehow more convenient for the customer, I'll never > know. I make it a point to use the clerks whenever possible --- let > them ring up the items and bag it. I guarantee any payroll savings goes > directly in the pockets of the owner, instead of reducing the price that > I pay for the food. Now if you want to compensate me a couple percent > off my total by doing the work myself, I might be more inclined to use > them. It's "more convenient" in the same way as Microsoft's "Genuine Advantage" is an advantage...profit maximization for the seller. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 12:07:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 13:07:13 -0400 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C091F48.6040509@gmail.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> <4C091B19.D97C71AF@cs.ubc.ca> <4C091F48.6040509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C0932C1.4020801@neurotica.com> On 6/4/10 11:44 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Not being very familiar with later-model IBM stuff, what vintage is >> this stuff? >> early 90's perhaps? > > Mid-to-late '80s. The 9370 family was announced in 1986. >> ... and JOOC, what is the big black IBM cabinet to the left in the >> last photo? > > IBM z890, I believe. Sridhar SHOULD believe that, as he helped me move it. ;) It is indeed a z890, a system that belongs to my employer. I hope to have it running in a datacenter soon. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 4 12:08:55 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 13:08:55 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C093327.8060404@sbcglobal.net> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Meanwhile, the California State Ass'y voted to ban plastic bags, so that > > we can all either cut down trees and pay a nickel each, or pay the store > > a couple bucks for cheapo 'reusable' bags that tear at the slightest glance. > > I'll just be making more frequent trips for smaller shopping lists to avoid > > using bags at all. Environmental conservation is fun! > > Huh? Why? I never use plastic or paper bags. I just take a backpack or > a set of bike panniers (or in extremis both) to the store. Much easier > and comfier to carry, too, and they get used hundreds or thousands of > times. I've got a couple of plastic crates, built liek milk crates, same width, but 1.5 times wider. Perfect for when the wife sends me grocery shopping at BJ's Warehouse. > Disposable bags are just plain evil, nasty and stupid... And great for the evil nastines that you get cleaning the cat's litter box. I've got a bucket that just the right size for holding the plastic grocery bags open for dumping the shit in. Tie it up and done... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 12:17:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 13:17:33 -0400 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <201006040822.58985.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> <201006040822.58985.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4C09352D.9050802@neurotica.com> On 6/4/10 11:22 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) > > What a find! Pristine and complete! Congratulations!!! > > Best to you at getting it up and running - esp. VM/370 and MVS. However, the "current" VSE/SP is also an excellent OS... Thanks! Yes, I'm sure VSE is a great OS, many people speak highly of it. I just don't know anything about it. Is there a VSE distribution floating around that I could run under Hercules, or perhaps on a P/390? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jun 4 12:27:39 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 12:27:39 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> On 6/4/10 10:17 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Huh? Why? I never use plastic or paper bags. I just take a backpack or > a set of bike panniers (or in extremis both) to the store. Much easier > and comfier to carry, too, and they get used hundreds or thousands of > times. Don't try that here - you'll be talking to the police in very short order. Store management will immediately assume you're shoplifting. Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 12:31:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 13:31:30 -0400 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C093872.9070408@neurotica.com> On 6/4/10 3:06 AM, RodSmallwood wrote: > Hell yes!! What a find! > > How do you supply the power and keep a thing like that cool? It runs on standard 220V power, that's easy. Keeping it cool, well...air conditioning! I wouldn't be able to run it much here in the summer, as my A/C unit is barely keeping up with the heat of the day as it is (I have several large non-recreational systems belching out heat here) but the winter should be no problem, now that our nonexistent climate change has actually given my part of the country a "winter" in the past couple of years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 4 12:30:38 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:30:38 -0600 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C091FC6.9060305@gmail.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> <4C091FC6.9060305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C09383E.6030706@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> A ban on those darn blister packs would be more useful, I think - I >> recycle the plastic, but I really don't *need* a packaging footprint the >> size of a book just to surround some trivial little item. I thought that was to make it harder to shop lift. > Plus, they're hard (to the point of infuriating) to open. It is the new meat packaging I find harder to open. > Peace... Sridhar > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 4 12:34:39 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:34:39 -0600 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C09392F.6060203@jetnet.ab.ca> Keith M wrote: > How shifting the burden of trouble and work from their paid employees to > the customer is somehow more convenient for the customer, I'll never > know. I make it a point to use the clerks whenever possible --- let them > ring up the items and bag it. I guarantee any payroll savings goes > directly in the pockets of the owner, instead of reducing the price that > I pay for the food. Now if you want to compensate me a couple percent > off my total by doing the work myself, I might be more inclined to use > them. Super markets don't sell food, they sell pre-packaged things that they say is food. They would only have 3 isles - meat, vegetables and dry goods, and a small cooler for OJ. > Keith > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 4 12:56:33 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 10:56:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09392F.6060203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> <4C09392F.6060203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Ben wrote: > > > Super markets don't sell food, they sell pre-packaged things that > they say is food. They would only have 3 isles - meat, vegetables > and dry goods, and a small cooler for OJ. > We used to shop at one Safeway store in the area, as they were close, and they have one of the best produce sections in the area. A few years ago they remodeled and took out a sizable chunk of the isles of food, they replaced them with Wine. :-( American's wonder why there is such an obesity problem, they should start looking at what is in all that pre-packaged **** that so many people eat! Zane From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 4 13:02:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:02:31 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> References: , <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com>, <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, to settle the claims of fluorescent lamps having a longer life than incandescents, what's the longest that a fluorescent lamp has ever been in constant operation? As a benchmark, I don't know if it's still there, but I believe that the Livermore, CA fire station had an incandescent lamp in more-or- less continuous service for about 100 years. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 4 13:12:21 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 12:12:21 -0600 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com>, <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C094205.8080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, to settle the claims of fluorescent lamps having a longer life > than incandescents, what's the longest that a fluorescent lamp has > ever been in constant operation? > > As a benchmark, I don't know if it's still there, but I believe that > the Livermore, CA fire station had an incandescent lamp in more-or- > less continuous service for about 100 years. If it is the one I am thinking of, it was made for night light use. 5 or 3 watts of power here. > --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 4 13:18:55 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 11:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com>, <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, to settle the claims of fluorescent lamps having a longer life > than incandescents, what's the longest that a fluorescent lamp has > ever been in constant operation? > > As a benchmark, I don't know if it's still there, but I believe that > the Livermore, CA fire station had an incandescent lamp in more-or- > less continuous service for about 100 years. There are a few bulbs like that. Sadly they don't make them like that any more. Do they even run off of standard AC or are they DC? I think NYC has a handful that are nearly that old. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 12:28:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:28:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: from "Teo Zenios" at Jun 3, 10 05:33:30 pm Message-ID: > Why, are you a serial "port" killer or something? Is a 'serial sex offender' somebody who makes a DTE device with a DB25S connector? I once defiend the Spice Girls as a group of female HP30E-series owners. Fortunately everybody else present understood... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 12:31:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:31:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C082F6F.5080701@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Jun 3, 10 03:40:47 pm Message-ID: > CFL electronics fail too, in fact that seems to fail before the actual And people tell me that soiid-state electronics lasts 'for ever' > tube gives up...they don't like being base up for one thing. OK, well still have separate tube and electronics, so you can replace just the electronics when it fails (thus reducing the amount of mercury let loose). Or of course provide a scheamtic of the electronics module, so to can be _repaired_ :-) > Seems to me that the tube should be able to last a long time...I have a > Neon Christmas tree that was made in the 1930's by my grandfathers > employees that stil works just fine - why can't a fluorescent bulb that > has no heater last indefinetly? Well, the electrodes will be damaged in time (even if there is no heater) -- things like NE2s do blacken in the end. And the gas will (very slowly) difuse through the glass. Oh, and the phosphor will probably degrade/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 12:36:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:36:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 4, 10 00:25:46 am Message-ID: > > On 03/06/10 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh > > electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the fluorescent > > tube when it fails? > > Profit. > > The Engineer Says: "I just made a lightbulb that lasts a million hours!" > The MBA Says: "NO! Don't tell ANYONE about it. It'll kill the sales of > our existing two-thousand-hour-lifetime products!" > > The Engineer Says: "What if we split the tube from the ballast? Then if > one fails, the customer can keep the other, working bit?" > The MBA Says: "People don't want to buy two separate parts. Also it's > more profitable if they have to swap the whole thing." Is it me, or is most of the 'green' movement one big con? If you're going to force people to use a particular type of light bulb for environmental reasons, then that bulb should be aa environmentally-friendly as possible. And since the CFL tube contains mercury, it shouldn't be thrown out for no good reason. So the electronics should be separately replaceable/repairable. [...] > I haven't seen anything like this for ages -- the Philips Softone bulbs > are one solid, welded unit (they're built like laptop PSUs, no screws at > all), and so are the GE energy-saver lamps if memory serves. Oh wuite likely. And IMHO that's the sort of thing that should be banned -- devices that are delibrarately difficult to repair (not supplying service data is a related rant!). I have repaired several laptop power bricks by cracking them open (a metal strip and a light hammer applied around the join), but I don;t think that technique is a good idea on a device which contains a sischarage tube like a CFL. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 12:45:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:45:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100603162913.G89502@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 3, 10 04:36:02 pm Message-ID: > Ever ask a Fry's employee for a serial printer cable? No, but some 25 years ago I went into a local computer shop to attempt to buy a serial cable to link my TRS-80 model 1 (with EI and RS232 board) to a newly obtained Sanders 12/7 printer. They told me it was impossible to link those 2 devices together, and tried to sell me another printer. I just walked to the electronics shop nearby, bought a couple of connectors and a length of cable and wired it myself... > > Or ask ANYTHING about any OS prior to XP and OS/X? PC-World (A chain of PC shops over here) certainly used to class Linux as a book and not an operating system. Why I do not know. I also don't know if they still do, I've not been in such a shop for many years. > > How about CX toner cartridges? Alas (for those of us with CX engined printers which can't be replaced by anything more modern [1]), they haven't been made for many years. [1] Such as the CX-VDO, the one with the direct interface to the print engine and no formatter board. It's used on the PERQ, Atari ST (?), Acorn Archimedes. etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 12:53:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:53:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C085647.5040803@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 4, 10 02:26:31 am Message-ID: > > On 04/06/10 00:36, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Ever ask a Fry's employee for a serial printer cable? > > No, but I've asked a Maplins employee for a Y-cable to split a 5.25" > floppy drive power connector into a 5.25" and a 3.5" connector. > > "Durrrrh, I don't think they make those, it'd, like, overload your power > supply." > "They're a standard part, and you list them on your website." > "That must be one of our competitors' websites, like, trying to pass > themselves off as us and, like, confuse our customers..." > > I had a walk around and found a Y-cable, and the "Computer Department > Sales Expert" was still wittering on about how my PSU was going to blow > up... Idiot. I learnt mean years ago that the correct answer to a Maplin (or Radio Shack, back whenwhe had such shops over here) employee asking 'can I help you ' was 'No'. :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 12:57:11 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:57:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C07F844.16978.2719DA7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 3, 10 06:45:24 pm Message-ID: > When it first opened, Fry's was a wonderful place where you could > find all sorts of things, such as VME bus cards. That aspect didn't > last too long, however. Sounds a bit like Maplin over here. About 15 years ago Maplin sold just eelctronic components and related things like electronics books, tools, multimeters, etc. Their range wan't great, but they generally had the common transsitors, TTL chips, resistors, capacitors, etc in stock in the shops. When I was working in Bristol I would routinely go to the Maplin shop to pick uip a load of components for my work or hobby. Now they sell mostly poor-grade consumer electronics and a few components. They can be useful for common connectors in a hurry. But forget trying to get anything exotic (likea 10k resistor)... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 13:00:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 19:00:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C085C9D.8000805@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 4, 10 02:53:33 am Message-ID: > > On 04/06/10 02:45, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > When it first opened, Fry's was a wonderful place where you could > > find all sorts of things, such as VME bus cards. That aspect didn't > > last too long, however. > > Maplins had the same sort of 'air' about it. It was about the only place > you could go at two o'clock on a Sunday afternoon and get that one > resistor or whatever that you needed to finish off your project. Yep :-( > > "M4K7, quantity five, and M8K1, quantity three please." You mean M8K2, surely? > (M was the part-prefix for a 0.7W "Min Res" metal film resistor, but > they were the same size as 0.25W MF / CF resistors) Oh, I would have asked for '1 off A4K7 and 1 off A8K2, please' . The 'A' code was a pack of 10 'M' resistors, and was considerablly cheaper than 10 times the price of 1 resistor. And of course you are goign to use the extras sometime... I can rememebr asking for $deity knows how many A33R packs (33 ohm resistors) as series terminators when fully populating a Unibus RAM card. And a lot of 16 pin turned-pin sockets... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 13:04:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 19:04:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Data I/O Programmer Problems In-Reply-To: <600915.25056.qm@web111316.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "steve" at Jun 3, 10 07:50:21 pm Message-ID: > > Have a Data I/O System 19 programmer for about 10 years and use it > quite frequently to program old bipolar PROMs which newer programmers > can't handle, anyway a week ago it powers up with a constant beep and > and all the lights turn on, any ideas what could be wrong? Is there > something that normally goes on these units? I have never worked on (or even seen) one of these units, but I've seen simialr symptoms on otehr devices. if the LEDs and beeper are driven by a TTL latch (say a '273), it would be logical to make the drive lines active low (LED from output to Vcc), since TTL can sink more than it can source. At which point, all LEDs become active when the latch is reset, and are only turned off when the latch is written to by the mircoprocessor system So if the microprocessor isn't doing the right things (CPU, ROm, RAM, support logic failuire), then the latch will never be written to. Hence the 'all lights on and beep'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 13:07:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 19:07:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: from "joe lobocki" at Jun 3, 10 09:57:51 pm Message-ID: > > it is also worth noting the light nazis run by the (political > statements removed) have also pulled the plug on mercury vapor > lighting, outlawing the repair maintenance and installation on them, Come again? Lst time I looked, fluorescent lamps were hot-cathode mercury vapour lamps. How can you promote fluorescent lamps and ban mercury vapour lamps???? The mount of not-so-much bad science as non-existant science in the 'green' movement is frightening! -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 4 13:21:43 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 11:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C094205.8080708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com>, <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> <4C094205.8080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Ben wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Okay, to settle the claims of fluorescent lamps having a longer life >> than incandescents, what's the longest that a fluorescent lamp has >> ever been in constant operation? >> >> As a benchmark, I don't know if it's still there, but I believe that >> the Livermore, CA fire station had an incandescent lamp in more-or- >> less continuous service for about 100 years. > > If it is the one I am thinking of, it was made for night light use. > 5 or 3 watts of power here. Ah, here is a good article on it. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1243138/Still-glowing-strong-109-years-worlds-oldest-lightbulb.html Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 4 13:29:44 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 11:29:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > PC-World (A chain of PC shops over here) certainly used to class Linux as > a book and not an operating system. Why I do not know. I also don't know > if they still do, I've not been in such a shop for many years. Actually this brings up an interesting point. At bookstores around here you used to be able to buy Linux distro's even though they wouldn't sell any other software. I've noticed that pretty much every British Linux magazine I've seen seems to include at least one Linux distribution on CD/DVD. BTW, is the UK's chief export periodicals? Also why are they so much more interesting than ones published in the US? Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 4 13:34:50 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 11:34:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I learnt mean years ago that the correct answer to a Maplin (or Radio > Shack, back whenwhe had such shops over here) employee asking 'can I help > you ' was 'No'. :-) About 10 years ago I walked into a Radio Shack, and when the sales clerk asked if he could help, I asked if they had any wire wrap tools. I almost passed out with shock when he showed me where they were. I bought one, now if I could just find it... I know it had to have been old stock that hadn't sold as even then they'd really gotten worthless. Now you're lucky to find anything. :-( Part of the two loads of Commodore stuff I've gotten this year has included a lot of electronics books and parts from back when Radio Shack was worth going to. Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 13:36:34 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:36:34 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0947B2.5020909@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > BTW, is the UK's chief export periodicals? Also why are they so much more > interesting than ones published in the US? They're not really any more interesting. It's just that the interesting ones in the US are lost in a sea of noise. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 13:37:59 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:37:59 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C094807.4080805@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > About 10 years ago I walked into a Radio Shack, and when the sales clerk > asked if he could help, I asked if they had any wire wrap tools. I almost > passed out with shock when he showed me where they were. I bought one, now > if I could just find it... > > I know it had to have been old stock that hadn't sold as even then they'd > really gotten worthless. Now you're lucky to find anything. :-( The ones in malls are terrible. The stand-alone stores are far from terrible. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 13:45:15 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:45:15 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0949BB.8080000@neurotica.com> On 6/4/10 2:34 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I learnt mean years ago that the correct answer to a Maplin (or Radio >> Shack, back whenwhe had such shops over here) employee asking 'can I help >> you ' was 'No'. :-) > > About 10 years ago I walked into a Radio Shack, and when the sales clerk > asked if he could help, I asked if they had any wire wrap tools. I almost > passed out with shock when he showed me where they were. I bought one, now > if I could just find it... > > I know it had to have been old stock that hadn't sold as even then they'd > really gotten worthless. Now you're lucky to find anything. :-( > > Part of the two loads of Commodore stuff I've gotten this year has included > a lot of electronics books and parts from back when Radio Shack was worth > going to. In the "credit where credit is due" department, and I know I mentioned this here a few months ago, I should point out that Radio Shack stores (at least around here and up in M aryland) have significantly INCREASED their electronic components stocks in the past couple of years. The ones down here are even carrying Parallax modules, and I'm told BASIC Stamps have been spotted at Radio Shack stores in Tampa. Yes, they sucked for this stuff for many years, but I really do believe they're on the upswing now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 13:46:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:46:07 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C094807.4080805@gmail.com> References: <4C094807.4080805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C0949EF.4080500@neurotica.com> On 6/4/10 2:37 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> About 10 years ago I walked into a Radio Shack, and when the sales clerk >> asked if he could help, I asked if they had any wire wrap tools. I almost >> passed out with shock when he showed me where they were. I bought one, >> now >> if I could just find it... >> >> I know it had to have been old stock that hadn't sold as even then they'd >> really gotten worthless. Now you're lucky to find anything. :-( > > The ones in malls are terrible. The stand-alone stores are far from > terrible. I have to agree. The mall-based Radio Shack stores are basically cell phone sales places. The standalone stores are much better. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 4 13:55:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:55:52 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4C08E9C8.19709.1546C02@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2010 at 11:34, Zane H. Healy wrote: > About 10 years ago I walked into a Radio Shack, and when the sales > clerk asked if he could help, I asked if they had any wire wrap tools. > I almost passed out with shock when he showed me where they were. I > bought one, now if I could just find it... Funny you should mention that--AFAIK, Radio Shack still sells a fairly nice $7 wire wrap tool, with a stripper hidden in the handle. I have one and use it occasionally to manually wrap--it's eaier to use than either my old Vector or OK tools. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 4 13:59:12 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 11:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classilla 9.2 Message-ID: <201006041859.o54IxC8T015492@floodgap.com> For the Classic Mac cctalkers not on 68KMLA or the Mac OS 9 list, I booted out Classilla 9.2 for Mac OS 8.6 through 9.2.2, a Mozilla-based web browser for classic Mac systems (thus darn near almost on topic [2002]). This version has a rewritten JavaScript interpreter and a lot of omnibus fixes. Enjoy :) http://www.classilla.org/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar Wilde From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 14:04:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 15:04:37 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C08E9C8.19709.1546C02@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C08E9C8.19709.1546C02@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C094E45.8060206@neurotica.com> On 6/4/10 2:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> About 10 years ago I walked into a Radio Shack, and when the sales >> clerk asked if he could help, I asked if they had any wire wrap tools. >> I almost passed out with shock when he showed me where they were. I >> bought one, now if I could just find it... > > Funny you should mention that--AFAIK, Radio Shack still sells a > fairly nice $7 wire wrap tool, with a stripper hidden in the handle. > I have one and use it occasionally to manually wrap--it's eaier to > use than either my old Vector or OK tools. I've had exactly that wire-wrap tool for more than 25 years, I bought it at Radio Shack before the dark ages. It really is an excellent tool; I'm glad they're still selling them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pinball at telus.net Fri Jun 4 01:38:48 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 23:38:48 -0700 Subject: Data I/O Programmer Problems In-Reply-To: <600915.25056.qm@web111316.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <600915.25056.qm@web111316.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C089F78.8060107@telus.net> steve wrote: > Have a Data I/O System 19 programmer for about 10 years and use it quite frequently to program old bipolar PROMs which newer programmers can't handle, anyway a week ago it powers up with a constant beep and and all the lights turn on, any ideas what could be wrong? Is there something that normally goes on these units? > > thanks > steve > > You need to post this on the Data I/O mail list... <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Data_IO_EPROM/ Common failures are power supplies, RAM, connections... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From pinball at telus.net Fri Jun 4 13:24:18 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:24:18 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C094205.8080708@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com>, <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> <4C094205.8080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C0944D2.7070104@telus.net> Ben wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Okay, to settle the claims of fluorescent lamps having a longer life >> than incandescents, what's the longest that a fluorescent lamp has >> ever been in constant operation? >> >> As a benchmark, I don't know if it's still there, but I believe that >> the Livermore, CA fire station had an incandescent lamp in more-or- >> less continuous service for about 100 years. > > If it is the one I am thinking of, it was made for night light use. > 5 or 3 watts of power here. > >> --Chuck 'Now' at 105 years... Link : http://www.centennialbulb.org/ John :-#)# From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jun 4 14:21:42 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 12:21:42 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> <4C09392F.6060203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 10:57 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > > > > On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Ben wrote: > > > > > > > Super markets don't sell food, they sell pre-packaged things that > > they say is food. They would only have 3 isles - meat, vegetables > > and dry goods, and a small cooler for OJ. > > > > We used to shop at one Safeway store in the area, as they were close, > and > they have one of the best produce sections in the area. A few years > ago > they remodeled and took out a sizable chunk of the isles of food, they > replaced them with Wine. :-( > > American's wonder why there is such an obesity problem, they should > start > looking at what is in all that pre-packaged **** that so many people > eat! > > Zane > I wasn't going to bite on this one, but.... I went to the local supermarket the other day to pick up a few things, including fresh spinach for a dish I was going to make. What they offered was a handful of leaves encased in a plastic blister pack. But what really rocked me back was the sticker on the shelf, showing a unit price of nearly twenty dollars! I decided to skip the spinach. -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 14:19:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 20:19:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 4, 10 11:29:44 am Message-ID: > > > > On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > PC-World (A chain of PC shops over here) certainly used to class Linux as > > a book and not an operating system. Why I do not know. I also don't know > > if they still do, I've not been in such a shop for many years. > > Actually this brings up an interesting point. At bookstores around here you > used to be able to buy Linux distro's even though they wouldn't sell any > other software. I don;t think I've ever seen a Linux CD-ROM (or whatever) on its own for sale in a bookshop over here. There are plenty of linux books that include a distribution CD-ROM in the back, of course. But there are many other books that come with a CD-ROM of software, nothing to do with linux > BTW, is the UK's chief export periodicals? Also why are they so much more > interesting than ones published in the US? Eeek!. Considering that I regard most UK magazines are being pretty awful, yous must be downright useless :-( -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jun 4 14:46:12 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 12:46:12 -0700 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C09352D.9050802@neurotica.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> <201006040822.58985.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <4C09352D.9050802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201006041246.12357.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 04 June 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/4/10 11:22 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) > > > > What a find! Pristine and complete! Congratulations!!! > > > > Best to you at getting it up and running - esp. VM/370 and MVS. However, the "current" VSE/SP is also an excellent OS... > > Thanks! Yes, I'm sure VSE is a great OS, many people speak highly of > it. I just don't know anything about it. Is there a VSE distribution > floating around that I could run under Hercules, or perhaps on a P/390? There may be a link here: http://www.lehigh.edu/~wsm0/vse-l/vse-l_links.shtml Technically, Hercules will run just about all IBM MF OSs. However, legally, one can only run: OS/360, DOS/360, DOS/VS, MVS, VM/370, and TSS/370 which IBM released to the public domain and/or under copyright for non-commercial use only. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 4 14:48:20 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:48:20 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C095884.5030501@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > Now they sell mostly poor-grade consumer electronics and a few > components. They can be useful for common connectors in a hurry. But > forget trying to get anything exotic (likea 10k resistor)... Poor quality doesn't even sum it up... * ?35 screwdriver kit... made of monkey-metal. The bits were wrecked in no time, and they refused the return because it had "obviously been abused". I got a CK Tools one from Farnell for ?20 that was much better made, ratcheted, magnetised, and came with the common "security" bits as well. * PC power supply. Blew up and took an expensive motherboard and CPU with it. Even put a PSU tester on it, which showed the +12 rail at almost 20V! -- "We'll replace the power supply but you'll have to RMA the motherboard and CPU." -- um, the guarantees on those explicitly state that they don't cover PSU faults. This was for a friend's PC, so I ended up footing the bill for the new MB and CPU. * Made-in-China network switch (I'd have got one from CCL but I was in a rush). DOA. To be fair, they refunded that without much effort... Fun. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 4 14:53:04 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:53:04 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0959A0.9020007@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 19:34, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Part of the two loads of Commodore stuff I've gotten this year has included > a lot of electronics books and parts from back when Radio Shack was worth > going to. I've got a ton of Forrest Mims books on my bookshelf -- I was on holiday on Long Island, NY in mid-2001, and figured I needed some reading material. Visited two different RadioShack stores and came back with an armful of books. Think I read the Engineers' Mini-Notebooks cover-to-cover and simulated a lot of the circuits on my 486 laptop. Good fun. Shame they didn't have any breadboards in stock otherwise I might have actually built a few of those projects :) I'm a complete packrat, and a sucker for anything that looks remotely "interesting"... as my long-suffering mother will gladly confirm :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 14:53:56 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 15:53:56 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C095884.5030501@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C095884.5030501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C0959D4.7020709@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > * PC power supply. Blew up and took an expensive motherboard and CPU > with it. Even put a PSU tester on it, which showed the +12 rail at > almost 20V! -- "We'll replace the power supply but you'll have to RMA > the motherboard and CPU." -- um, the guarantees on those explicitly > state that they don't cover PSU faults. This was for a friend's PC, so I > ended up footing the bill for the new MB and CPU. Never, EVER, **EVER** skimp on power supplies. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 4 15:00:10 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:00:10 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C08E9C8.19709.1546C02@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C08E9C8.19709.1546C02@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C095B4A.5070601@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 19:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Funny you should mention that--AFAIK, Radio Shack still sells a > fairly nice $7 wire wrap tool, with a stripper hidden in the handle. > I have one and use it occasionally to manually wrap--it's eaier to > use than either my old Vector or OK tools. Is that the little silver one which looks like one of those cheap "precision" screwdrivers you get in those 6-for-$1 kits? Part number 276-1570? I ended up importing one of those -- RS wouldn't sell it to me over the web so I got someone to buy one for me and shove it in an envelope. Great little tool -- and one of the few I won't lend out to ANYONE. The other tool on my "Not For Loan" list is a Paladin Tools 7000 "CrimpAll" ratcheted crimp tool, with the Molex pin-crimping die. Said crimping die was a pig to find -- it was discontinued at the time, and there were only three left, all on a shelf in a surplus electronics place in California. Ended up calling in a few favours, got them shipped to a friend-of-a-friend's girlfriend on the east coast, then had her send them to me (the friend-of-a-friend and my friend wanted one each too). Great fun, but worth it in the end :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 4 15:05:12 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 14:05:12 -0600 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> <4C09392F.6060203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C095C78.406@jetnet.ab.ca> Ian King wrote: > I wasn't going to bite on this one, but.... > > I went to the local supermarket the other day to pick up a few > things, including fresh spinach for a dish I was going to make. What > they offered was a handful of leaves encased in a plastic blister > pack. But what really rocked me back was the sticker on the shelf, > showing a unit price of nearly twenty dollars! I tend to buy what is on sale for around $3.50 to $4.50. That must of been hand washed by Virgins, organic spinach for that price. I do find the blister pack lasts longer in my fridge than the plain plastic bag of greens so it is better deal for me. I tend to shop once a week at the supermarket and regular greens go bad after a few days. > I decided to skip the spinach. -- Ian > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 4 15:08:11 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:08:11 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0959D4.7020709@gmail.com> References: <4C095884.5030501@philpem.me.uk> <4C0959D4.7020709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C095D2B.2000508@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 20:53, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Never, EVER, **EVER** skimp on power supplies. I don't. This was a friend who insisted he couldn't afford the "expensive" power supply, and bought the crap thing from Maplins because "they're all the same." Ugh. "Friends make the worst clients." Every PC I've built in the past three years has had either an Antec or Corsair power supply specified (I'm not sure who make the Antec PSUs, but the Corsairs are made by Seasonic). Not had a problem yet... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 4 11:43:19 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 17:43:19 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <009d01cb0422$8d167710$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 12:25 AM Subject: Re: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > On 03/06/10 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh > > electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the fluorescent > > tube when it fails? > > Profit. > > The Engineer Says: "I just made a lightbulb that lasts a million hours!" > The MBA Says: "NO! Don't tell ANYONE about it. It'll kill the sales of > our existing two-thousand-hour-lifetime products!" > > The Engineer Says: "What if we split the tube from the ballast? Then if > one fails, the customer can keep the other, working bit?" > The MBA Says: "People don't want to buy two separate parts. Also it's > more profitable if they have to swap the whole thing." > It's also possible that some idiot (or kids) would plug in the ballast with no tube at all! Maybe even stick some wire or something into it that shouldn't be there. Either way, I'm sure the HSE wouldn't like it here in the UK. As an employee, I am not allowed to change fuses at work or do anything with our machines unless we have been trained by the appropriate engineer first. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 4 12:25:22 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:25:22 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Jun 4, 1010:36:43 am", <201006041537.o54FbZq3003998@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <009f01cb0422$92a99ea0$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Well, my parents and I have got in the habit of keeping the plastic bags we get from shops. We have 2 bags downstairs - one is full normal sized bags and the other tiny bags used by gaming stores etc. We reuse them as much as possible and have done since the 90's. For instance, when buying 2L plastic bottles of drink (or lots of food items) we always use 2 bags as 1 (e.g. 1 plastic bag inside the other) for a stronger bag. It's much less embarassing than walking down the street and having a single plastic bag rip letting the contents onto the pavement and/or road. I suppose 3 bags as 1 would be even better, but 2 have worked for us. We also use the plastic bags as bin bags for our small bin (perhaps 3' high?). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 4:58 PM Subject: RE: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) I often get a funny look from the checker when I respond with, "No bag," and juggle four or five items for the few yards it takes to get to my vehicle. When I see that look, I give them a glare of defiance and say something like, "I am NOT ashamed to buy orange juice!" Some get the joke and smile, others just hope I'll leave quietly. What irks me is when they just start stuffing my items into a plastic bag without asking, and then look put-upon when I tell them to take it back out. What amuses me is when I'm buying only one item, that's in a bag, and they want to put it in... another bag. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser [spectre at floodgap.com] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 8:37 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > > Disposable bags are just plain evil, nasty and stupid. > > We get through a lot for use as trash bags; if they vanish, I'm just going to > end up buying more proper trash bags. > > The system's not *quite* in balance, because the majority of US stores insist > on packing your purchases for you, and use *far* more bags than they need to; +2. I use them both for bagging my own stuff and as liners in the bathroom. Also, I have to repeatedly tell them I don't need my milk gallons in double bags (or bags at all). But as usual the kneejerk reaction of the political class is ban it all, damn the consequences. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 4 15:17:39 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 13:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20100604131609.I22355@shell.lmi.net> > > Huh? Why? I never use plastic or paper bags. I just take a backpack or > > a set of bike panniers (or in extremis both) to the store. Much easier > > and comfier to carry, too, and they get used hundreds or thousands of > > times. > Don't try that here - you'll be talking to the police in very short > order. Store management will immediately assume you're shoplifting. The local Lucky/Albertson refuses to put packages of chicken into customer cloth bags. They know that the store packaging will leak. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 4 15:26:30 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:26:30 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C096176.8030105@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 20:19, Tony Duell wrote: > Eeek!. Considering that I regard most UK magazines are being pretty > awful, yous must be downright useless :-( Seconded. If UK magazines are good, your benchmark must be pretty damn bad! A few examples... "PC Plus" started out pretty good -- in their heyday, they negotiated a deal with Borland/Inprise to include Delphi 3 on a cover CD with no license restrictions, then did a ton of programming tutorials based around it. Around 2003 it turned to mush -- the programming articles were gone, and the software on the CD was barrel-scrapingly bad stuff. Some of it didn't even install or work... which says a lot about the QA staff at Future Publishing. EPE (Everyday Practical Electronics) -- again, great up until they decided to stop accepting freelance submissions, and bought ALL of their content in from Silicon Chip. Dave Barrington's "Shoptalk" column (basically: "where to get the weird parts used by this project") got the axe quite early on, I think Net Work and Circuit Surgery are still going, but IMHO the magazine is pretty damn crappy. Their ideas for pricing on the back-issue CDs are mad... Elektor was (and still is) quite good. But it's more of a "technology" magazine now than the project-oriented magazine that it (and EPE for that matter) used to be. They have recently released a DVD with all the articles from 1990 to 1999 on, which is a nice step -- not up to the degree of CCi's "here's every issue we ever published" archive, but still better than EPE's "if it's more than 3 years old it doesn't exist" attitude. Circuit Cellar is still going and well worth the money for a digital subscription. But they've just been bought out by Elektor, which is somewhat worrying. One can only wonder what 'the Big E' are going to do to it. Although they have kept Steve Ciarcia on, which is a good first step (as long as they keep him in the 'editorial control loop'). The old "Electronics: The Maplin Magazine", aka "Electronics and Music Maker" and "Electronics and Beyond" was actually pretty good. It always seemed to me it was more of a sideline for Maplin's -- something to push their project kits. Post-1999, it took a rather odd route down the 'pseudo-science' track, with columns from the likes of Uri Geller (anyone remember him? ). Apparently this got sold to Kanda in ~2001, and was (quite quickly) run into the ground. Let's see... what else is there... Amateur Photographer.. can't say a bad word about this. The price is right at least, and it gives me something to read at work on my lunch break (AP is published weekly) :) Photography Monthly -- used to be good, until the editor stepped down and someone else took over... and proceeded to revamp the style of the magazine completely. Now it may as well be "how to Photoshop your digital photos like a complete tit". Practical Photography -- the kings of the Twelve Month Rolling Loop. I kid you not, buy a years' worth of that magazine, and you've got just about every article they're going to publish for the following year. Also I'm not a fan of Bauer Media... it took four phone calls and a letter to them and my bank to cancel the bloody Direct Debit... and they're still spamming me with "look, we've got some other great magazines you might want to read!" emails / post. Which goes straight into the bin. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Jun 4 15:29:59 2010 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 20:29:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0949EF.4080500@neurotica.com> References: <4C094807.4080805@gmail.com> <4C0949EF.4080500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have to agree. The mall-based Radio Shack stores are basically cell > phone sales places. The standalone stores are much better. My 2 data points go the other way around: the Radio Shack in downtown College Park has nothing interesting, but the one in Arundel Mills Mall has a bunch of components; I got an insulated mouting kit for a TO-220 there the other day, and that's where I bought my current mutimeter. Alexey From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 4 15:49:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:49:05 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C094807.4080805@gmail.com> <4C0949EF.4080500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C0966C1.1070406@neurotica.com> On 6/4/10 4:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> I have to agree. The mall-based Radio Shack stores are basically cell >> phone sales places. The standalone stores are much better. > > My 2 data points go the other way around: the Radio Shack in downtown > College Park has nothing interesting, but the one in Arundel Mills Mall > has a bunch of components; I got an insulated mouting kit for a TO-220 > there the other day, and that's where I bought my current mutimeter. Hey, I've been to both of those Radio Shacks! :) I used to live up the road in Laurel, before that in Silver Spring, and before that, in Greenbelt. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 4 15:51:43 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 13:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100604132936.K22355@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > No, but some 25 years ago I went into a local computer shop to attempt to > buy a serial cable to link my TRS-80 model 1 (with EI and RS232 board) to > a newly obtained Sanders 12/7 printer. They told me it was impossible to > link those 2 devices together, and tried to sell me another printer. I > just walked to the electronics shop nearby, bought a couple of connectors > and a length of cable and wired it myself... Yeah. My first printer on TRS80 was a DTC300 (Hytype I daisy wheel). It took a LONG time to work out a printer cable (my first computer cabling attempt). Later, TRS232 came out with a trivial to use serial printer interface that ran off of the cassette port! GPA made a similar one that plugged into the expansion port. > > How about CX toner cartridges? > Alas (for those of us with CX engined printers which can't be replaced by > anything more modern [1]), they haven't been made for many years. > [1] Such as the CX-VDO, the one with the direct interface to the print > engine and no formatter board. It's used on the PERQ, Atari ST (?), Acorn > Archimedes. etc. Also Cordata/Corona Data Systems, Eiconscript, and Jlaser I used a DC37 switch box. Tall Tree Systems (Jlaser, JRAM, etc.) sold an adapter to connect to SX printer engines! Their pre-LIM EMS was one of the early ones. At 4th? WCCF (West Coast Computer Faire) Henderson? was frantically trying to get people to write software, ANY software, that would need large amounts of RAM. Cordata's software refused to run on 286 or above. Poems font editor supported Cordata fonts, and HP PCL Maybe some year, I'll move the XenoCopy documentation (LOTS of embedded formatting codes) over to something that survived for a while. Eiconscript had Postscript and HP PCL emulation. Eicon's tech "support" was generous, but hilarious. "Here's a new version of the PCL emulator; no idea whether this one works." Should I try to find/dig out any of those boards? Or should they rust in pieces? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 4 15:54:53 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 21:54:53 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <009d01cb0422$8d167710$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> <009d01cb0422$8d167710$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4C09681D.6020901@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 17:43, Andrew Burton wrote: > It's also possible that some idiot (or kids) would plug in the ballast with > no tube at all! Maybe even stick some wire or something into it that > shouldn't be there. > Either way, I'm sure the HSE wouldn't like it here in > the UK. As an employee, I am not allowed to change fuses at work or do > anything with our machines unless we have been trained by the appropriate > engineer first. At a previous employer, we had a "Health and Safety Officer" who did this, arranged for additional mains sockets to be added to desks, and so forth. By default you'd get a 3A fuse fitted to a set of desk sockets, even if you requested an 8-way socket with a 13A fuse. Plug in eight set-top-boxes for a network test, hit the ON switch... and watch as the whole desk loses power. This was his policy, even if the socket strip was itself rated to 13A. Order a fuse replacement, and you got another 3A. To get something more sanely rated, you had to get approval from the Head of Engineering, your Line Manager, and H&S Officer, and also provide a side of A4 explaining why *exactly* you needed 13A of power. "Running networking tests which requires 8 boxes" wasn't good enough -- he wanted an essay. That was always fun... In my current place-of-work, H&S and training seem to have gone by the wayside. We've got a Fuji Frontier digital photo printer, and there's a strict company policy that in order to do maintenance work on it, you MUST have attended the Fujifilm training course and have the shiny little certificate that says so. I wouldn't be surprised if this was part of the service contract... So anyway, there are a few problems with this: 1) The only two members of staff in our store who had done the Fuji maintenance training... were made redundant (along with all the other specialist Lab Supervisors and Lab Operators in the company). 2) The company will no longer pay for people to take the Fuji training courses. 3) ... so now we have one-and-a-half people who can do the maintenance work. That is, one person (me) who can do all of it, and one who can handle the basic weekly maintenance. You can probably guess what's happened to the weekly / monthly / quarterly maintenance (and the yearly machine service for that matter). Fun. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 15:59:58 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:59:58 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09681D.6020901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> <009d01cb0422$8d167710$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4C09681D.6020901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C09694E.9070509@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Order a fuse replacement, and you got another 3A. To get something more > sanely rated, you had to get approval from the Head of Engineering, your > Line Manager, and H&S Officer, and also provide a side of A4 explaining > why *exactly* you needed 13A of power. "Running networking tests which > requires 8 boxes" wasn't good enough -- he wanted an essay. That was > always fun... My response to this sort of scenario would be repeatedly blowing fuses and sitting on my hands waiting for the fuses to be replaced. If asked why my product wasn't getting out the door, I'd point to the fuse holder. I'd probably get fired, but I might just get their attention. In any case, I'd probably go ballistic when faced with this kind of stupidity. Literally. Complete with arm-waving and screaming. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 16:01:24 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:01:24 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C095D2B.2000508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C095884.5030501@philpem.me.uk> <4C0959D4.7020709@gmail.com> <4C095D2B.2000508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C0969A4.6090006@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Never, EVER, **EVER** skimp on power supplies. > > I don't. This was a friend who insisted he couldn't afford the > "expensive" power supply, and bought the crap thing from Maplins because > "they're all the same." Ugh. "Friends make the worst clients." No matter how close a friend you are, I won't let you put me in a position where you can blame me for your own screwup. I also wouldn't have paid for the parts lost due to shortsightedness. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 16:03:43 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:03:43 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <201006041551.o54FpLgO007090@floodgap.com> References: <201006041551.o54FpLgO007090@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C096A2F.4010004@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> A ban on those darn blister packs would be more useful, I think - I >>> recycle the plastic, but I really don't *need* a packaging footprint the >>> size of a book just to surround some trivial little item. >> >> Plus, they're hard (to the point of infuriating) to open. > > http://www.floodgap.com/iv/572 Egad. A colossally stupid solution to a problem that shouldn't exist. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 4 16:14:50 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:14:50 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C096CCA.4030902@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/10 16:36, Jules Richardson wrote: > A ban on those darn blister packs would be more useful, I think - I > recycle the plastic, but I really don't *need* a packaging footprint the > size of a book just to surround some trivial little item. Do you know why they use that packaging? Here's a little hint: Shrinkage. It's easier to steal (say) a memory card in a cardboard sleeve/box (tear the cardboard off!) than it is to steal one that's in a solid-plastic blister pack. Shoplifters are known to remove the packaging from items *in the middle of shops* to avoid tripping any EAS systems (checkpoint sensors, that sort of thing) on the way out. Also makes the stuff easier to hide inside (say) a thick jumper or coat. Of course you still get the brazen, balls-of-steel types who just grab stuff and run like a scalded hare. It's more fun when they go flying down the stairs in front of the shop. So rare to see karma in action :) :) :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 4 16:19:49 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 14:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Eeek!. Considering that I regard most UK magazines are being pretty > awful, yous must be downright useless :-( My favorite magazine is "Black+White Photography" from the UK, I don't bother with any computer magazines anymore, and haven't for years. I used to really enjoy the Amiga magazines from the UK. The only Linux magazine I've ever really read was the original from the US. Most of the Computer magazines I liked are long gone, or not worth reading. The only magazines I read now are niche photography magazines. Zane From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 16:30:35 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 22:30:35 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 7:29 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually this brings up an interesting point. ?At bookstores around here you > used to be able to buy Linux distro's even though they wouldn't sell any > other software. > > I've noticed that pretty much every British Linux magazine I've seen seems > to include at least one Linux distribution on CD/DVD. It's cheap and cover mounts /significantly/ increase newsstand sales, even when they also increase the cover price. It's a rare mag that doesn't sell more with a "free" cover CD even if it cost a few pounds more. Sad but true. > BTW, is the UK's chief export periodicals? ?Also why are they so much more > interesting than ones published in the US? Slightly freer editorial teams? I used to write for some American mags, and one had to check with the manufacturers of kit before running a review to give them chance to explain/excuse away the defects in the product and so on. Utter madness; totally counter-productive. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 16:31:08 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 22:31:08 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 6/4/10 10:17 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Huh? Why? I never use plastic or paper bags. I just take a backpack or >> a set of bike panniers (or in extremis both) to the store. Much easier >> and comfier to carry, too, and they get used hundreds or thousands of >> times. > > ?Don't try that here - you'll be talking to the police in very short order. > ?Store management will immediately assume you're shoplifting. Seriously?! I am *appalled*. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 16:33:28 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:33:28 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >>> Huh? Why? I never use plastic or paper bags. I just take a backpack or >>> a set of bike panniers (or in extremis both) to the store. Much easier >>> and comfier to carry, too, and they get used hundreds or thousands of >>> times. >> >> Don't try that here - you'll be talking to the police in very short order. >> Store management will immediately assume you're shoplifting. > > Seriously?! > > I am *appalled*. SOP at *many* stores around here is to check your package against your receipt at the door. I tend to avoid those stores, because I don't want to do business with someone who assumes I'm stealing from him. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 4 16:38:39 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 15:38:39 -0600 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C09725F.7090508@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > SOP at *many* stores around here is to check your package against your > receipt at the door. I tend to avoid those stores, because I don't want > to do business with someone who assumes I'm stealing from him. Don't worry ... soon they will also check if you have *light bulbs*. > Peace... Sridhar > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jun 4 16:49:15 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 14:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100604131609.I22355@shell.lmi.net> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> <20100604131609.I22355@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Huh? Why? I never use plastic or paper bags. I just take a backpack or >>> a set of bike panniers (or in extremis both) to the store. Much easier >>> and comfier to carry, too, and they get used hundreds or thousands of >>> times. >> Don't try that here - you'll be talking to the police in very short >> order. Store management will immediately assume you're shoplifting. > > The local Lucky/Albertson refuses to put packages of chicken into customer > cloth bags. They know that the store packaging will leak. Isn't that why there are rolls of plastic bags in the butcher's department? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 4 16:57:52 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 14:57:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 4, 10 08:19:08 pm" Message-ID: <201006042157.o54Lvqb8014938@floodgap.com> > > BTW, is the UK's chief export periodicals? Also why are they so much more > > interesting than ones published in the US? > > Eeek!. Considering that I regard most UK magazines are being pretty > awful, yous must be downright useless :-( American mags are pretty dire. I let most of my subscriptions lapse. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Athiest: Someone who doesn't believe in spell checkers. -------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 4 17:02:11 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > SOP at *many* stores around here is to check your package against your > receipt at the door. I tend to avoid those stores, because I don't want to > do business with someone who assumes I'm stealing from him. > > Peace... Sridhar With CompUSA I've been known in years past to tell them no they can't check them, especially as the idoit just watched me leave the checkout line. At Costco I actaully expect it, and it makes sense. At Fry's it is actually the employee's they don't trust from what I've heard. The only one of the stores I'm aware of that does this that I'll do business with any more is Costco. Powell's Books actually asks you to check your bags when you enter the store. They've done that for about as long as I can remember. With the current trend of not allowing backpacks, I'm glad I'm no longer in the Navy. When I was inport, or stationed in Washington DC, I didn't have a vehicle of my own, so I'd always have a backpack stuffed full of all kinds of stuff, especially in DC. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 4 17:12:16 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Liam Proven wrote: > On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 7:29 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Actually this brings up an interesting point. ?At bookstores around here you >> used to be able to buy Linux distro's even though they wouldn't sell any >> other software. >> >> I've noticed that pretty much every British Linux magazine I've seen seems >> to include at least one Linux distribution on CD/DVD. > > It's cheap and cover mounts /significantly/ increase newsstand sales, > even when they also increase the cover price. It's a rare mag that > doesn't sell more with a "free" cover CD even if it cost a few pounds > more. > > Sad but true. In the 90's I bought a lot of Mac and Amiga magazines for the floppies and CD's that were included. > >> BTW, is the UK's chief export periodicals? ?Also why are they so much more >> interesting than ones published in the US? > > Slightly freer editorial teams? I used to write for some American > mags, and one had to check with the manufacturers of kit before > running a review to give them chance to explain/excuse away the > defects in the product and so on. Utter madness; totally > counter-productive. I don't doubt this, a lot of US photography magazines read more like advertisements than magazines. Of course then there is "White Dwarf", which if the UK version is anything like the US version is nothing more than an advertisement (actually more of a catalog supplement). It used to be a good generic RPG magazine, then a good "House Games" magazine, now it's just junk with the occasional interesting bit. Now there is a hobby where the magazine selection has really gone down hill, but then that happened 10-20 years ago. 10 years ago it was hard to find a decent tabletop gaming magazine that wasn't a "House games rag", now it's impossible. 20 years ago there were all sorts of magazine that covered not only that publishers games, but also everyone elses. Zane From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jun 4 17:31:42 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 15:31:42 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> , <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: I once bought RAM for a PC from a store that insisted on walking me to the register, then checking my purchase against the receipt before I could leave. You'll notice I said "once." Never went back -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar [ploopster at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 2:33 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) Liam Proven wrote: >>> Huh? Why? I never use plastic or paper bags. I just take a backpack or >>> a set of bike panniers (or in extremis both) to the store. Much easier >>> and comfier to carry, too, and they get used hundreds or thousands of >>> times. >> >> Don't try that here - you'll be talking to the police in very short order. >> Store management will immediately assume you're shoplifting. > > Seriously?! > > I am *appalled*. SOP at *many* stores around here is to check your package against your receipt at the door. I tend to avoid those stores, because I don't want to do business with someone who assumes I'm stealing from him. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 17:52:37 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:52:37 -0400 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <201006041246.12357.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> <201006040822.58985.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <4C09352D.9050802@neurotica.com> <201006041246.12357.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: > Technically, Hercules will run just about all IBM MF OSs. However, legally, one can only run: OS/360, DOS/360, DOS/VS, MVS, VM/370, and TSS/370 which IBM released to the public domain and/or under copyright for non-commercial use only. Did they really release these for public domain, or did they just not protect these properly? -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 4 18:24:33 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 19:24:33 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com><4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net>, <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5AAD9B1F80E64949945A7DCE7F42E1C1@dell8300> Back in the mid 90's Bestbuy would take anything you wanted that was locked up to the register with you and hand it to the clerk so you would not touch it until it was paid for. Don't think they checked receipts on the way out. I went through this buying my first CDR drive back when they were $1100. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 6:31 PM Subject: RE: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) I once bought RAM for a PC from a store that insisted on walking me to the register, then checking my purchase against the receipt before I could leave. You'll notice I said "once." Never went back -- Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 18:26:51 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 19:26:51 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > There are a few bulbs like that. There are a *lot* of bulbs like that, hidden in farmhouse attics. As I said before, 100 year old bulbs are actually quite common, and every so often one can find one that is overbuilt enough due to the sloppy manufacturing tolerances of the era that it is pretty much bulletproof. >?Sadly they don't make them like that any > more. If you have ever used an old light bulb, your opinion might be wildly different. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 18:28:24 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 19:28:24 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <201006042157.o54Lvqb8014938@floodgap.com> References: <201006042157.o54Lvqb8014938@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > American mags are pretty dire. I let most of my subscriptions lapse. Hello, Internet. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 4 19:08:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:08:44 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C095B4A.5070601@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4C08E9C8.19709.1546C02@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C095B4A.5070601@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C09331C.17894.272DDF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2010 at 21:00, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Is that the little silver one which looks like one of those cheap > "precision" screwdrivers you get in those 6-for-$1 kits? Part number > 276-1570? Don't know the part number, but yeah, that's the deal. > The other tool on my "Not For Loan" list is a Paladin Tools 7000 > "CrimpAll" ratcheted crimp tool, with the Molex pin-crimping die. Said > crimping die was a pig to find -- it was discontinued at the time, and > there were only three left, all on a shelf in a surplus electronics > place in California. Ended up calling in a few favours, got them > shipped to a friend-of-a-friend's girlfriend on the east coast, then > had her send them to me (the friend-of-a-friend and my friend wanted > one each too). Great fun, but worth it in the end :) I have various Molex-brand racheting hand crimpers that I picked up for next to nothing at a bankruptcy auction back in the 80's. One of the smartest buys I ever made. --Chuck From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jun 4 20:23:18 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:23:18 -0700 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <201006041246.12357.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> <4C09352D.9050802@neurotica.com> <201006041246.12357.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <201006041823.18054.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 04 June 2010, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Friday 04 June 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 6/4/10 11:22 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > >> I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) > > > > > > What a find! Pristine and complete! Congratulations!!! > > > > > > Best to you at getting it up and running - esp. VM/370 and MVS. However, the "current" VSE/SP is also an excellent OS... > > > > Thanks! Yes, I'm sure VSE is a great OS, many people speak highly of > > it. I just don't know anything about it. Is there a VSE distribution > > floating around that I could run under Hercules, or perhaps on a P/390? > > There may be a link here: http://www.lehigh.edu/~wsm0/vse-l/vse-l_links.shtml > > Technically, Hercules will run just about all IBM MF OSs. However, legally, one can only run: OS/360, DOS/360, DOS/VS, MVS, VM/370, and TSS/370 which IBM released to the public domain and/or under copyright for non-commercial use only. I found more info on DOS/VS (not VSE, but close ;-) 1n the Hercules FAQ: 2.07 Where can I obtain DOS/VS ? I've put the DOS/VS r34 install tape on my site. It'll expand to a 21 MB AWSTAPE file, dosrel34.aws. You need the Coverletter to install it. Read the relevant postings of the Hercules mailing list first, as the install process is quite obscure. You can grab those files at : * http://www.hercules-390.org/dosrel34.zip * http://www.hercules-390.org/dosrel34coverletter.pdf * http://open360.copyleft.de/DOS34/Installation.html (bad link) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 20:33:14 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:33:14 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> , <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: > I once bought RAM for a PC from a store that insisted on walking me to the > register, then checking my purchase against the receipt before I could > leave. I recall buying PC RAM in the early days of 30 pin SIMMs... the store I got it from insisted on writing down all the numbers both of the SIMM PCB and *every single chip* (eight ICs on each, and I bought eight SIMMs). I assume that they were worried that someone would claim the RAM was faulty and return them a completely different module under warranty. I still have the copy that they gave me, I think. Their notes contained an awful lot of repetition ;-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 20:34:57 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:34:57 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C09A9C1.6010002@gmail.com> joe lobocki wrote: > it is also worth noting the light nazis run by the (political > statements removed) have also pulled the plug on mercury vapor > lighting Were those the ones you used to see in the UK for street lighting back in the 70s and early 80s, which cast a sort of sickly green glow over everything? From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Jun 4 21:41:00 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:41:00 -0400 Subject: old Sun SCSI chips Message-ID: <4C09B93C.1090201@hawkmountain.net> I'm trying to nail down the differences between FAS101 and 53C96 SCSI chips used in Sun systems/boards. I believe the 53C96 is 5MB/sec SCSI and the FAS101 if 10MB/sec. (I found specs for Macs with the 53c96 that say 5MB/sec which is where I got that # from). A Sun infodoc article lumps up the FAS101 and MACIO, doesn't indicate the speed of the FAS101, but indicates the MACIO is 10MB/sec. This obviously if correct would make the FAS101 the better SCSI chip if one had a choice between the two (unless there were some other performance drawbacks to the 'faster' chip). I think this is correct, but looking for confirmation. -- Curt From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 4 22:42:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 20:42:24 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> References: , , <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Ian King wrote: > I once bought RAM for a PC from a store that insisted on walking me > to the register, then checking my purchase against the receipt > before I could leave. DRAM in the 80's was a scarce commodity in the US, when the government imposed anti-dumping penalties on the big Asian makers. It was pretty ugly; there were even some break-ins in Silicon Valley for the sole purpose of stealing DRAM. Even into the mid 90's, you could open to the back pages of any PC magazine and see ads proclaiming "Top dollar paid for your RAM". Now, we toss it into the landfill. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 4 23:29:51 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 21:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Ian King wrote: > >> I once bought RAM for a PC from a store that insisted on walking me >> to the register, then checking my purchase against the receipt >> before I could leave. > > DRAM in the 80's was a scarce commodity in the US, when the > government imposed anti-dumping penalties on the big Asian makers. > It was pretty ugly; there were even some break-ins in Silicon Valley > for the sole purpose of stealing DRAM. > > Even into the mid 90's, you could open to the back pages of any PC > magazine and see ads proclaiming "Top dollar paid for your RAM". > I have a very clear memory (no pun intented) of spending $19.95 for *one* 256k x 1 (41256?) memory chip. I needed nine of the things to make a full bank in my PC. This was around 1987 or so. It took a long time to fill that bank of memory... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 00:14:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 01:14:30 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > I have a very clear memory (no pun intented) of spending $19.95 for *one* > 256k x 1 (41256?) memory chip. ?I needed nine of the things to make a full > bank in my PC. ?This was around 1987 or so. ?It took a long time to fill > that bank of memory... I remember those days - 41256s went from about $3.50 to $17.50 nearly overnight. My main machine at the time was an Amiga 1000. I bought a 0K Spirit Inboard inexpensively (for the day), then was faced with coming up with $840 or so for RAM, retail. I was lucky enough to snag a discarded engineering prototype from work that had a few 50256s on it (and lots of blue wires soldered to the shoulders). Some of them made it into that Inboard (after I honed my chip-extraction-from-a-six-layer-board technique - $140 saved per working set was a lot of motivation to keep a steady hand). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 5 00:26:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 01:26:33 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C09E009.4070505@neurotica.com> On 6/5/10 1:14 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I have a very clear memory (no pun intented) of spending $19.95 for *one* >> 256k x 1 (41256?) memory chip. I needed nine of the things to make a full >> bank in my PC. This was around 1987 or so. It took a long time to fill >> that bank of memory... > > I remember those days - 41256s went from about $3.50 to $17.50 nearly overnight. > > My main machine at the time was an Amiga 1000. I bought a 0K Spirit > Inboard inexpensively (for the day), then was faced with coming up > with $840 or so for RAM, retail. I was lucky enough to snag a > discarded engineering prototype from work that had a few 50256s on it > (and lots of blue wires soldered to the shoulders). Some of them made > it into that Inboard (after I honed my > chip-extraction-from-a-six-layer-board technique - $140 saved per > working set was a lot of motivation to keep a steady hand). A project I worked on in those days had four RAM boards each containing 576 51C256 chips. I remember thinking for a split second "Hmm, how could I get one of those boards out of here?" ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jlobocki at gmail.com Fri Jun 4 14:50:47 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 14:50:47 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember being able to buy different variants of linux at a bookstore, but this was back in 2001-2002 before (almost) everyone and their grandparents had a high speed connection. On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 2:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, 4 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > PC-World (A chain of PC shops over here) certainly used to class Linux > as > > > a book and not an operating system. Why I do not know. I also don't > know > > > if they still do, I've not been in such a shop for many years. > > > > Actually this brings up an interesting point. At bookstores around here > you > > used to be able to buy Linux distro's even though they wouldn't sell any > > other software. > > I don;t think I've ever seen a Linux CD-ROM (or whatever) on its own for > sale in a bookshop over here. There are plenty of linux books that > include a distribution CD-ROM in the back, of course. But there are many > other books that come with a CD-ROM of software, nothing to do with linux > > > BTW, is the UK's chief export periodicals? Also why are they so much > more > > interesting than ones published in the US? > > Eeek!. Considering that I regard most UK magazines are being pretty > awful, yous must be downright useless :-( > > -tony > From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jun 4 19:48:16 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 17:48:16 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09331C.17894.272DDF7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C08E9C8.19709.1546C02@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C095B4A.5070601@philpem.me.uk> <4C09331C.17894.272DDF7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C099ED0.1020009@jwsss.com> >> The other tool on my "Not For Loan" list is a Paladin Tools 7000 >> "CrimpAll" ratcheted crimp tool, with the Molex pin-crimping die. Said >> crimping die was a pig to find -- it was discontinued at the time, and >> there were only three left, all on a shelf in a surplus electronics >> place in California. Ended up calling in a few favours, got them >> shipped to a friend-of-a-friend's girlfriend on the east coast, then >> had her send them to me (the friend-of-a-friend and my friend wanted >> one each too). Great fun, but worth it in the end :) >> > I have various Molex-brand racheting hand crimpers that I picked up > for next to nothing at a bankruptcy auction back in the 80's. One of > the smartest buys I ever made. > > --Chuck > The good news is I also have a large collection of molex, amp, paladin, et. al. crimpers from surplus sales, etc. The bad news is all the firms which sold them off in the LA area are gone, along with jobs they created, which would not be so bad right about now (or anywhere). They didn't migrate, they just went away. Jim From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 5 02:14:21 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 03:14:21 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: , <4C08E9C8.19709.1546C02@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C095B4A.5070601@philpem.me.uk><4C09331C.17894.272DDF7@cclist.sydex.com> <4C099ED0.1020009@jwsss.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim s" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 8:48 PM Subject: Re: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > The good news is I also have a large collection of molex, amp, paladin, > et. al. crimpers from surplus sales, etc. > > The bad news is all the firms which sold them off in the LA area are gone, > along with jobs they created, which would not be so bad right about now > (or anywhere). They didn't migrate, they just went away. > > Jim When a computer costs $3000 you can get a decent job and afford one, plenty of people have jobs locally making and supporting them. When a computer costs $300 it is made in some other country and you might not be able to afford it since you are out of work. How often do you use those specialized crimping tools, and on what hardware? The only specialized crimper I use is a set for doing CAT5 ethernet, got it in the late 90's and use it all the time. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Jun 5 02:42:30 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 09:42:30 +0200 Subject: looking for a small front cover (DEC rack) Message-ID: Hi, I know it's a long shot, but you never know ... Browsing the eBay auctions, I saw the 11/03 DataSystem 11/03 auction 390194753263. I have been looking for some time for the small front cover with the text "DECDatasystem" on it, like the one in the picture between the processor box and the top RL02. The cover is 2 pieces, the plastic part that you see and a metal bracket which mounts on the rack with 2 screws. Does somebody have this small cover (what's the correct word?) and is willing to sell it? Shipping costs (to The Netherlands) is not a problem. Contact me off-list ! BTW, such a cover without the text print on it is also fine. thanks, - Henk. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jun 5 07:21:20 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 13:21:20 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C0A4140.4000202@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/06/2010 04:42, Chuck Guzis wrote: > DRAM in the 80's was a scarce commodity in the US, when the > government imposed anti-dumping penalties on the big Asian makers. > It was pretty ugly; there were even some break-ins in Silicon Valley > for the sole purpose of stealing DRAM. I have an SGI Indy that was free thanks to that. It must have been about 15 years ago, when they were fairly new, and our department bought a whole lot for a new lab. Each was laid out with the top off to take out the disks for cloning. They must have been spotted for there was a breakin, and the RAM taken, not without some significant damage to most of the machines. The insurance company took away the damaged machines but missed one, and when it turned up later, I acquired it. Amusingly, when I tried to get a license for something on it a few years later, SGI claimed that serial number didn't exist. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jun 5 08:25:45 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 09:25:45 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <009f01cb0422$92a99ea0$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Jun 4, 1010:36:43 am", <201006041537.o54FbZq3003998@floodgap.com> <009f01cb0422$92a99ea0$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4C0A5059.6050507@arachelian.com> On 06/04/2010 01:25 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > Well, my parents and I have got in the habit of keeping the plastic bags we > get from shops. We have 2 bags downstairs - one is full normal sized bags > and the other tiny bags used by gaming stores etc. > We reuse those plastic supermarket bags. They're exactly the right size for small trash cans, and because they're small, they're just the right size for several soiled diapers because they can be tied together and sealed to keep the smell from escaping. So they're not just going to waste. If we couldn't get them at the supermarket, we'd actually have to buy smaller sized bags to use as liners in the small trash cans in the bathrooms. So it would not change our actual consumption of such bags. Infact, it would be worse, since having to buy those bags would mean both spending money on them, but more importantly, only using them once. We also don't have a huge collection of plastic bags eating up space in the house, as we use them fairly quickly. If they had built up faster than we were able to dispose of them, then they'd be a waste. But they're not. For our use, it falls under "just right." Recycling and _reusing_ are wonderful things, everyone should do it. Banning bags just because they're made of plastic is a stupid idea. Paper bags cannot be used to hold diapers, or bathroom trash, nor can they be used to hold kitchen trash which may be soggy. I think the key isn't to ban the bags, rather, it's to make bags that decompose after several months, or when exposed to sunlight or air for a certain amount of time (more than a month or so.) In terms of buying stuff, I agree that a large plastic see through package that holds something tiny is extremely useful. The only reason they're packaged that way, and also the reason why they're so difficult to open, once at home, is to make it harder to shopfilt the items. It also has the added benefit of providing a large advertisement for the product. As long as the store owners keep demanding that products are packaged this way, they will be. Most of these things have inventory control tags in them anyway, so they could get away with smaller cardboard packaging, and more cameras in store to prevent the bad guys from tearing open a package and stealing the contents. At least the cardboard is fully recyclable, though I recycle those plastic boxes too. In our are we recycle carboard, newspapers/magazines (not that I subscribe to many anyway - I can find almost everything I want to read on the web in the first place), glass, and plastic. For some reason, in our area, we don't seem to recycle aluminum foil or trays, but they do take cans. I had some fun with the garbage guys early on - they didn't seem to want to recycle phone books even though they're made of the same kinds of paper as newspaper, and they do take newspaper. :) After a while they gave up and took them for recycling. I was out in San Fran back in December for a business trip. Apparently their mayor expects everyone to also keep a separate bin for food and other organic trash, and to put it in a compost bin. I can see how that could work for private homes, but it would be a huge nasty thing for apartment buildings and offices unless they have someone take the stuff out twice a day. Unfortunately, they just had a bit that sat in the kitchenette in the office and wasn't taken away often enough, so the smell was the annoyance factor. Obviously, it's less of an issue once taken outside to an actual compost bin where the bacteria and worms can do their jobs. But in the office kitchenette, it's pretty nasty. What this has to do with old computers, I'll never know. :) Possibly, because we rescue machines instead of letting them go to a landfill, we're keeping them from becoming junk? Hmmm, since this was originally about bulbs, I wonder, has anyone here tried to make their own light bulbs? I'd imagine it wouldn't be too hard if you had something to remove the air out of an air tight jar, possibly replacing with an inert gas, and had a way to make your own filaments, and then had a way to seal the bulb to the right kind of connector? You might be able to make bulbs that last far longer than commercial ones. Probably the big problem would be to get glass that was thick enough to not break very easily, and had some way to reseal it. Any glassmakers on this list? From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jun 5 08:44:43 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 09:44:43 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0949EF.4080500@neurotica.com> References: <4C094807.4080805@gmail.com> <4C0949EF.4080500@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C0A54CB.3090409@arachelian.com> On 06/04/2010 02:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have to agree. The mall-based Radio Shack stores are basically cell > phone sales places. The standalone stores are much better. > The weirdest Rat Shack experience I've had was when I bought a can of contact cleaner from them, not in pen form, but in spray form. The clerk wanted to see ID for it. I think he was confused, it wasn't spray paint after all. :) I remember when I was a kid, I used to be able to go into RS stores and talk to the guys there and they'd be able to recommend what IC's I could buy to experiment with... stuff like logic gates for example. Now you're lucky if they just have connectors. Oh well, At least they stopped hassling me about wanting to buy a cell phone, I mean, duh, there's one on my belt, what would I need another for? From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jun 5 09:40:43 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 10:40:43 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0A61EB.90205@arachelian.com> On 06/04/2010 03:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Eeek!. Considering that I regard most UK magazines are being pretty > awful, yous must be downright useless :-( > They are, they're mostly filled with ads and the articles are fluffy at best. A few years back when internet access was on a slower DSL line for me, I used to buy stuff like Linux Format because it came with CD's or DVD's full of Linux distros. While I think the magazine cost $15 or so, it was worth not having to tie up the line for an hour or so to download a distro. I never bothered to subscribe, instead I went to a nice large magazine store that also had a deli as part of it. I'd buy the article and a sandwich, and it would make for a nice way to spend a lunch hour... A few years back I did an experiment, I ripped out every page that was a full page ad on both sides. I left the pages that had articles on the back, or pages that had smaller ads and article text around them. More than half of the pages I removed from the magazine was ads! And of course the remaining had some ads at least on half of the pages. Of the remaining article pages, a lot of the articles were really product reviews, which if you think about it, are really promotions for those products. Sure, a lot of the reviews do provide value - if you're in the market for whatever it is they're reviewing, if you're not, they're just as much noise as ads. It also was fairly obvious that the larger articles jumped around from the start to the back, so you'd have a higher chance of being exposed to the ads as you went from the front towards the back. Once on the back pages, some of the articles were further chopped up, so they'd be continued on pages past a section that was entirely full of little ads - something like two dozen pages, each with a dozen ads per page surface. And within the magazine, about 5-6 fall out subscription cards, designed to fall out in your lap as you flipped through the pages. These I found especially annoying when I've already subscribed! Some of the ad pages were made of cardboard - supposedly to pop out at you to get your attention, some, annoyingly were perfume ads. Yuck! Not only did they bombard us with ads, but also with their stench! Some had fold out pages, that is pages that were 2x the size of a normal page, but were folded, and when opened, guess what, more ads inside. Some were a bit creative, they used shiny plastic or cutouts, or had little wheels inside of them to make the ads more fun, but in the end, they were just ads. I vaguely remember a car ad for some SUV that contained a flattened dried out sponge in the shape of a sponge of all things! I think the only such ad-riddled magazine I still subscribe to is Wired... only because I started out early and have every since since the first. :) It makes for a nice historical record, (if I'd want to find a reason to justify keeping it.) I used to get MacWorld and MacLife, but then, I stopped since a) they're just full of ads, and b) the "articles" are reviews of products mostly and rarely anything useful and c) any "news" they might have, I've already read online two months ago, despite the magazine's date saying it was for next month, and d) the content was so piss poor that I'd be able to read all the articles of interest in less than half an hour (skipping the stuff that wasn't interesting), and then into the recycle bin in went. Dr Dobbs and C Users Digest used to be good stuff, but they're no more... Now, since the new (greater? lesser?) depression, it's gotten better since there are less companies who buy out ads, but why bother? firefox with adblock, noscript, ghostery, and better privacy, is a far better way to read stuff. No ads, no punch the monkey, no continued on page 260, no perfume ads, no annoying cardboard pages, no annoying fall out subscription cards when I'm already subscribed, etc. Yes, I know, the more ads in a magazine, the more articles the publisher can afford to put in an issue. Call me a selfish bastard, but I hate ads, and besides, despite my paying for the magazine, it turns out they make more money from the ads than they ever do from me, so why isn't the magazine free to begin with? I don't even bother watching the news on TV, or reading actual newspapers anymore. The stories from the newspaper's websites, the dashboard weather widget, plus the stock widget get me enough of what I care for. I'll probably mess with an RSS reader to make it easier than having to reload a dozen firefox tabs every morning at some point, but I'm still too lazy at the moment. :) The few annoyances I get on the web is when you have an article that's really a blog entry, that points to another, that points yet to another. Thanks, but I don't need a summary of a summary, Just point me at the original material. (The only time I find this kind of thing useful is when the original material is behind a paywall.) Or worse when they chop up an article into multiple "pages" -as if I can't be bothered to scroll, or if it was paper... Same as magazines' behavior where an article is continued at the end. Yes, I knowm they want me exposed to as many ads as possible (which I filter out anyway) and that's why I always reach for the "Printer view/Single Page" whenever possible, or if not switch to the "Basic" Page Style and get rid of all the fancy extra shit. Another annoyance is this - my machine has a lovely wide screen, why would anyone center their content with a fixed size in a narrow 5" view and put other crap to the left and right? I don't mind scrolling, but my display can handle a lot more text, it's the text I'm after, not their background images or borders... sheesh! I suppose based on my usage behavior, one might guess I'd be the perfect candidate for an iPad, but no thanks. I'm the exact anti-candidate. I already have a good notebook with a full OS and a great browser, why would I want a crippled one that's locked down to a "store", and even worse, its browser won't filter out the ads! Why bother when I can already get everything I'd want for free anyway? As for reading books, the wife did buy me a Kindle for xmas last year. I wound up going back to real books anyway. There's something annoying about it, either it doesn't look as high res as actual paper, or it's too heavy for its form factor with a tiny screen (when compared to a paperback) or maybe I just like real printed books, not sure... Or maybe the idea of some vendor controlling what I can read, or having the ability to remotely delete or invade my privacy is abhorrent. I might consider an iPad when I can get a full OS on it with a properly functional firefox that includes noscript and adblock+, and yes, even then I will jail break it, Steve Jobs be damned! Actually I do have a tablet computer - an old Motion Computing tablet that I installed Linux on, but I rarely use it. Somehow the idea of lounging around on the couch and surfing the web while listening to mp3's, is not as appealing as sitting at my desk infront of my notebook and doing the same whilst having a full keyboard at my disposal. I thought I'd love to have a tablet, but maybe I was wrong. Still, it makes for a very nice kitchen computer, once docked and attached to a keyboard + trackball... We used to get a ton of junkmail too, but that's dwindled to the point where at first we were wondering, did the mailman actually come by today? But then we realized it was just that not many companies could afford to spam us anymore. I guess that's bad for the economy, but good for the environment, and really, it makes my life a lot easier too since I have less junk to have to sort to. (Yes, I know, I could sign up to have the post office not deliver any catalogs, but there are some I do want occasionally.) Worse yet, apparently our mailmen here have been told to stick actual letters inside of catalogs, or those supermarket ads that are printed on the same paper as newspapers... So they make you flip through the pages to get at the actual important mail. Bastards! Any one have that same issue? From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jun 5 09:46:30 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 10:46:30 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09681D.6020901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> <009d01cb0422$8d167710$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4C09681D.6020901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C0A6346.3010302@arachelian.com> On 06/04/2010 04:54 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > At a previous employer, we had a "Health and Safety Officer" who did > this, arranged for additional mains sockets to be added to desks, and > so forth. By default you'd get a 3A fuse fitted to a set of desk > sockets, even if you requested an 8-way socket with a 13A fuse. Plug > in eight set-top-boxes for a network test, hit the ON switch... and > watch as the whole desk loses power. This was his policy, even if the > socket strip was itself rated to 13A. > > Order a fuse replacement, and you got another 3A. To get something > more sanely rated, you had to get approval from the Head of > Engineering, your Line Manager, and H&S Officer, and also provide a > side of A4 explaining why *exactly* you needed 13A of power. "Running > networking tests which requires 8 boxes" wasn't good enough -- he > wanted an essay. That was always fun... Why not come in very early one day, or stay late another day and replace the 3A fuse with a proper one when no one is looking? You could always claim ignorance or say "They must have GREEN power supplies" if they ask "wow how did you get 8 machines to run?" From marvin at west.net Sat Jun 5 10:00:50 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 08:00:50 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) Message-ID: <4C0A66A2.9010008@west.net> I am impressed. This thread has managed to go on and on without any classic computer related information. And it has also gone through a number of topic changes in the process. I think this one sets a new (unfortunate) record for OT discussions :(. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 5 10:29:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:29:31 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0A66A2.9010008@west.net> References: <4C0A66A2.9010008@west.net> Message-ID: <4C0A6D5B.6080207@neurotica.com> On 6/5/10 11:00 AM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I am impressed. This thread has managed to go on and on without any > classic computer related information. And it has also gone through a > number of topic changes in the process. > > I think this one sets a new (unfortunate) record for OT discussions :(. Good thing it's on the "op-topic and off-topic posts" list then, huh? I've just been exercising the "delete" key a bit more quickly than usual, works great. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jun 5 10:30:59 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:30:59 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C0A6DB3.3000909@arachelian.com> On 06/04/2010 05:33 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > SOP at *many* stores around here is to check your package against your > receipt at the door. I tend to avoid those stores, because I don't > want to do business with someone who assumes I'm stealing from him. The only place like that we frequent is Costco. The monkey at the exit just makes his mark on the receipt with a marker after pretending to look at the shopping cart, and out the door we go. The nicer ones actually put a happy face on the receipt when we have our kids with us, so those days we give the receipt to the kids to present and they get a kick out of it. The more annoying part is the entrance where they ask to show a membership card. 99.9% of the time, I can just nod at the guy and walk past him without showing him anything. It's only when they hire a new guy that actually takes his "job" seriously that I get stopped, at which point point I show him the card and ask him why he needs to waste my time? After a few times, they learn. The only real annoyance I've had with them is when I try to recycle the bottles. As with most states in the US, the charge $0.05 per bottle of whatever. Sometimes they have special seasonal beers. As you might imagine, I can't finish that entire case of pumpkin ale by the 2nd week of november, so their recycle machine no longer recognizes the barcode, so I have to lug the bottles to the customer service desk and tell'em to give me back my nickels. Hey, if they're gonna charge me for them to make sure I recycle them, I'm most certainly going to make sure I do. If that makes me a cheap bastard, let them consider what it costs them to pay someone to sit there behind the counter to deal with that. Not my problem, they should have programmed their damned machines to accept the barcodes on those bottles, even if they were from a month ago. What I find interesting is that it seems those machines don't actually reuse the bottles, rather they smash them. Does it cost them less money to melt down the glass shards and make new bottles from them than to return the bottles to the vendor? I presume it would cost about the same to transport them (by weight, not volume) Or is the whole thing a scam anyway? Yes, the savings on groceries are worth that tiny little bit of hassle, otherwise I'd have to go to the supermarket and pay 2x for a blister pack of spinach, which would be far more annoying. Between the "Executive" membership kickbacks and the sponsored Amex card kickbacks, we more than get back the membership fees. Maybe that's because we use Costco to buy actual veggies, dairy, and meats, instead of prepackaged boxed microwaveable crap, so it's more expensive... but we're healthier that way, so it's worth it. If I can make it myself, I do. Example: it's ridiculously easy to make apple sauce, just buy a big 10lbs bag of apples, cut them rectangularly downwards from the top so as to remove the core without having to use a coring tool. Boil them until they're soft enough to squeeze, but not so much that they're mush. Let them cool and squeeze them out of their skins into a bowl using clean hands. Then add some cinamon, a bit of lime juice and some sugar and blend them with an immersion blender. Put in sterilized jars, and put'em in the fridge overnight before eating. Total actual work not counting waiting is about 20 minutes. The pre-made apple sauce from Costco is full of HFCS, though it's cheaper and far less work than making it yourself, I'm not about to feed the kids HFCS, which is known to cause liver scarring and obesity. Like fixing old computers, making your own food is an enjoyable hobby. Breads are ridiculously easy to make and only need about 4 ingredients plus time. Yogurt is also very easy to make, though I don't bother as much since I can get it cheaper at costco than I can at the supermarket. On occasion, the local supermarket does have "organic apple sauce" which is made with nothing but apples, not even sugar, so I did purchase it. Kids did like it, though they wanted cinnamon with it. It's more expensive than making it myself, but I don't always feel like making it, especially in the summer when it's hot. :) But overall, for stuff like meats, veggies, fruit, juice, and dairy, the Costco wins, and for other things, we'll make'em ourselves. We do visit the local supermarkets occasionally for what Costco doesn't have, and those times we make sure we don't use the self-check out lines. Hey, jobs are scarce, plus, there's no reason I should do extra work to check out my own groceries at a nasty annoying machine that talks down at me about unexpected items in the checkout area, while some poor high school or college kid languishes without a job for the summer. Though recently the only checkout clerks I see are middle aged moms, which makes it even worse if they lose their jobs. :( When those things first started and the lines were long, a manager offered to show us how they work, so I told her "Why? So more clerks can lose their jobs? No thanks, I'll wait in line. Meanwhile, you go and hire more clerks." She wasn't too happy with that. :-D From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jun 5 10:46:09 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:46:09 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C0A7141.8070009@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> I have a very clear memory (no pun intented) of spending $19.95 for *one* >> 256k x 1 (41256?) memory chip. I needed nine of the things to make a full >> bank in my PC. This was around 1987 or so. It took a long time to fill >> that bank of memory... > > I remember those days - 41256s went from about $3.50 to $17.50 nearly overnight. > > My main machine at the time was an Amiga 1000. I bought a 0K Spirit > Inboard inexpensively (for the day), then was faced with coming up In the early 90's, I upgraded my A500 with a 68030 accelerator and 2mb of 32-bit wide fast ram. The 2mb of ram, made up of the same 41256's mentioned and some memory controller components, cost around $250.00. I also purchased a dataflyer 500 ide HD controller. These add-on's really helped extend the life of the machine, and really made it much more usable. For what it's worth, I'm still looking for the (16) 1Mx4-bit DRAMs to take it from 2mb to 8mb. I have some SMT ram that will work, but have to create a carrier for them, and then have tons of soldering to do, which I haven't really been looking forward to. Keith From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 5 11:12:52 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:12:52 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0A54CB.3090409@arachelian.com> References: <4C094807.4080805@gmail.com> <4C0949EF.4080500@neurotica.com> <4C0A54CB.3090409@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4C0A7784.6000100@oldskool.org> On 6/5/2010 8:44 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: > I remember when I was a kid, I used to be able to go into RS stores and > talk to the guys there and they'd be able to recommend what IC's I could > buy to experiment with... stuff like logic gates for example. Now > you're lucky if they just have connectors. When I was a kid in the 70's I have fond memories of going there with my dad to use the giant vacuum tube tester. Our wood cabinet floor model Zenith needed a new tube once every six months or so. Sometimes he'd buy a hobby CD motor or solar cell for me to play with. I never became an electronics hobbyist, but it was fun to make simple stuff. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jun 5 11:21:18 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 12:21:18 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0A7784.6000100@oldskool.org> References: <4C094807.4080805@gmail.com> <4C0949EF.4080500@neurotica.com> <4C0A54CB.3090409@arachelian.com> <4C0A7784.6000100@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4C0A797E.2020407@arachelian.com> On 06/05/2010 12:12 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > When I was a kid in the 70's I have fond memories of going there with > my dad to use the giant vacuum tube tester. Our wood cabinet floor > model Zenith needed a new tube once every six months or so. Sometimes > he'd buy a hobby CD motor or solar cell for me to play with. I never > became an electronics hobbyist, but it was fun to make simple stuff. Yeah, I didn't get too deep into electronics either, but it was fun to play with circuits... mmm, my kid's about 6 now, I think maybe I'll see about helping him make a few simple circuits for fun, something like an LED and batter with a switch, or maybe a motor or two... just to see if there's any interest. If there is, I'll see if those 50-in-1 kits are still available. :) Sure would beat playing with legos. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 5 11:23:06 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:23:06 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0A66A2.9010008@west.net> References: <4C0A66A2.9010008@west.net> Message-ID: <4C0A79EA.2060109@oldskool.org> On 6/5/2010 10:00 AM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I am impressed. This thread has managed to go on and on without any > classic computer related information. And it has also gone through a > number of topic changes in the process. > > I think this one sets a new (unfortunate) record for OT discussions :(. When a thread about a topic goes too long, on-topic or otherwise, I just search for (topic heading), tag all the matches, and hit delete. This is made easier by using a threaded email program (thunderbird). One particular thread last year that I had no interest in reading was over 1000 messages by the time it was done. I calculated the total bandwidth it took to transmit to me, and it was roughly 700KB a day. One 3.5" DSDD floppy disk's worth of data in a day might have bothered me in 1990 when it took a 9600 baud modem 11 minutes to transfer, but in 2010 it takes roughly a second. So, my perception of off-topic threads has shifted radically in recent years; since it doesn't cost anyone significant time or money any more, I view them as a good thing. There's a lot of useful "oral" history out there in off-topic threads. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 5 11:26:20 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:26:20 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C0A7AAC.1080800@oldskool.org> On 6/4/2010 11:29 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: > I have a very clear memory (no pun intented) of spending $19.95 for > *one* 256k x 1 (41256?) memory chip. I needed nine of the things to make > a full bank in my PC. This was around 1987 or so. It took a long time to > fill that bank of memory... When we bought our AT&T PC 6300 in late 1985, it came with 128K of RAM. My father later bought a program that needed 256K, so he spent a lot of money and came home with 36 (I think) DRAMs to populate the motherboard with up to 640K. A teen at the time, I thought he was absolutely crazy to spend that money when the program was just a simple graphics demo and I was only playing 64K .COM games and writing BASIC programs. Six months later, I was burning up all 640K on a regular basis and wishing DOS supported more. I formally apologized to my dad for doubting him :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 5 11:59:57 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 09:59:57 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C0A66A2.9010008@west.net> <4C0A6D5B.6080207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C0A828E.4C786010@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 6/5/10 11:00 AM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I am impressed. This thread has managed to go on and on without any > > classic computer related information. And it has also gone through a > > number of topic changes in the process. > > > > I think this one sets a new (unfortunate) record for OT discussions :(. > > Good thing it's on the "op-topic and off-topic posts" list then, huh? > I've just been exercising the "delete" key a bit more quickly than > usual, works great. End even within the "on-topic and off-topic posts list" there is reasonable and unreasonable use of off-topic bandwidth. Some self-restraint and judgement is warranted and expected. I don't mind little off-topic wanderings, they can be interesting and on occasion I might even contribute to them, but when an off-topic thread or someone's off-topic contributions exceed the on-topic content by a significant multiple and have little likelihood of being of even tangential interest to the list membership, it is excessive. If it's a free-for-all and anything is permitted then there is no point in calling it the classic computing list. Ray Arachelian wrote: > > The pre-made apple sauce from > Costco is full of HFCS, though it's cheaper and far less work than > making it yourself, I'm not about to feed the kids HFCS, which is known > What this has to do with old computers, I'll never know. :) Now try acting upon your own observation. From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jun 5 12:45:17 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 13:45:17 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 Message-ID: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> I know it's crazy, but I finally got my FPGA based PDP-8/I to boot TSS/8. http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/pdp8/README.html It's been sort of working for a while but had some odd bugs. I did a lot of simulation and comparison with simh. I think it's pretty close to correct now. There are still a few bugs to clean up but it seems to run everything correctly and save files to the disk. I hope to agument my "disk maker" to extract and rebuild tss/8 file systems soon. It would be nice to build up disks from some of the decus programs. Right now it will extract and replace the main parts of TSS/8 but not the file system itself. -brad -- Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From marvin at west.net Sat Jun 5 13:02:55 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 11:02:55 -0700 Subject: OT Postings Message-ID: <4C0A914F.6010206@west.net> The problem with the delete key being a "solution" is that a number of people who can and have contributed to the list appear to have left. Having been through this more than once, the problem comes with people who actually want to discuss and read about classic computers. Remember the cctech (I think that is right) list that was created in an attempt to only contain ontopic posts? Hijacking a listserver is not a good thing ... unless the object is to drive away these people who are actually interested in classic computers! Marvin > Good thing it's on the "op-topic and off-topic posts" list then, huh? > I've just been exercising the "delete" key a bit more quickly than > usual, works great. > > -Dave From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jun 5 13:17:32 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 14:17:32 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4C0A94BC.9030008@verizon.net> Brad Parker wrote: > I know it's crazy, but I finally got my FPGA based PDP-8/I to boot TSS/8. > > http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/pdp8/README.html > > It's been sort of working for a while but had some odd bugs. I did a > lot of simulation and comparison > with simh. I think it's pretty close to correct now. There are still a > few bugs to clean up but it seems to run > everything correctly and save files to the disk. > > I hope to agument my "disk maker" to extract and rebuild tss/8 file > systems soon. It would be nice > to build up disks from some of the decus programs. Right now it will > extract and replace the > main parts of TSS/8 but not the file system itself. > > -brad Great job Brad. I don't have any interest in pdp8's or the like, but I do have an interest in verilog, FPGAs, and the general usage of new tech to reproduce old tech. I want to look at your UART and compare to mine. Mine is sort of bare bones, but works well. I'm running it at 2mbps reliably. It's neat to compare how I did things vs other people's approaches. I have the sparatan-3e board, but -3 board has some advantages, namely the SRAM instead of my DDR. Much easier to access from hdl's. For my project, I've been using FIFO that uses block rams. I have about 45k block ram space, so it's sufficient for a lot of things. I've just got my external amiga floppy drive controller rewritten from a microcontroller application to the -3E FPGA. I was able to make some huge improvements, not the least of which reading a whole amiga disk into .ADF format in about 40 seconds. Given standard RPM speeds, 32s is near the theoretical maximum. Getting an OS to boot is certainly a huge milestone, and you should be proud of yourself. Thanks for posting. Keith From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 13:58:03 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 13:58:03 -0500 Subject: OT Postings In-Reply-To: <4C0A914F.6010206@west.net> References: <4C0A914F.6010206@west.net> Message-ID: I think the world would go more smoothly if everyone would just relax. If all it takes for someone to permanently leave a group is to receive a few off-topic posts in a group where the title says off topic is ok, then they were likely to get annoyed and leave for some other on-topic reason. The people on this list are a valuable resource for a lot of things, not just things relating to classic computers. So I like seeing the off-topic posts. If I'm not interested in them, I just ignore them entirely. I'm only interested in maybe 20% of the emails from this list, on or off topic. But sometimes I find that I'm interested in other kinds of things that the people here often talk about. Perhaps what the group really needs is better subject titles on the emails. If everyone were disciplined about putting OT in the subject as soon as it went off topic, they could be filtered easily. brian On Sat, Jun 5, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > The problem with the delete key being a "solution" is that a number of > people who can and have contributed to the list appear to have left. > > Having been through this more than once, the problem comes with people who > actually want to discuss and read about classic computers. Remember the > cctech (I think that is right) list that was created in an attempt to only > contain ontopic posts? Hijacking a listserver is not a good thing ... unless > the object is to drive away these people who are actually interested in > classic computers! > > Marvin > > > >> Good thing it's on the "op-topic and off-topic posts" list then, huh? >> ?I've just been exercising the "delete" key a bit more quickly than usual, >> works great. >> >> -Dave > > From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jun 5 14:03:12 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 15:03:12 -0400 Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0A9F70.8090705@verizon.net> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sun, 30 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Can you explain the set-up, please. What is connected to what, and where >> the PSU is connected to (the A500 mainboard, right)? >> > Here's a picture of the board (well *A* board): > http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/dataflyer2000plus,5 > > Mine has the memory expansion conector installed. > > The A500 works fine with this card installed. I did more checking and > it appears that there's a short between +5 and ground. I removed all > the chips to eliminate them as a potential cause and it's still reading > as shorted. The only components left on the board at this point are the > resistors, a pair of electrolytic caps and a pair of what I think are > tantalum caps. > > Thanks for the suggestions Tony. > > g. > Gene, Please let us know how you made out with this. There might be some common failure pattern that would be nice to know if mine ever gives up the ghost. :) There's a ROM on there(DF autoboot ver 2.1 chip), and at least one PAL chip (DFS PAL), and maybe another one DTACK? Is it worth trying to read the ROM? Is it possible to reverse engineer the PALs by hooking up a logic analyzer? Are PALs normally just combinational logic? No timers, counters, storage, and so on? Just formulas for combining inputs and producing outputs? Thanks Keith From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 14:41:56 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 20:41:56 +0100 Subject: OT Postings In-Reply-To: References: <4C0A914F.6010206@west.net> Message-ID: <4C0AA884.2000905@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Brian Lanning wrote: > Perhaps what the group really needs is better subject titles on the > emails. If everyone were disciplined about putting OT in the subject > as soon as it went off topic, they could be filtered easily. And changing the subject as well I seem to remember the "Is anyone going to the VCF-UK" has wondered into all sorts of things, at least some of them have had the topic changed for.... Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 5 14:43:50 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 12:43:50 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4C0AA8F6.6070800@bitsavers.org> On 6/5/10 10:45 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > I know it's crazy, but I finally got my FPGA based PDP-8/I to boot TSS/8. > "As part of this effort I have cleaned up the only machine readable source code for TSS/8 I could find. Thanks to John Wilson for typing it all in." um.. John's and 'my' (UW-M's) version are up at http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/ascii/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 5 15:01:57 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 21:01:57 +0100 Subject: Anyone off to VCF-UK In-Reply-To: References: <3FCBE06D956B48FAB5944ADA6B66E615@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4C0AAD35.4040407@philpem.me.uk> On 02/06/10 22:49, William Donzelli wrote: >> Same as the analgesics packaging rules: if you make it inconvenient >> to go around the rules, most people won't be bothered. Job done. > > Pretty much like the various copy protection systems software has used > over the years. But at least you can have fun reverse engineering those :) Some of the ones I've seen must have been written by absolute masochists... or by someone with a mean streak a mile wide... Also: anything that depends on a specific CPU clock rate? REALLY bad idea. It's amazing how many copy protection schemes get this little fact wrong. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 5 15:08:58 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 21:08:58 +0100 Subject: OT Postings In-Reply-To: <4C0A914F.6010206@west.net> References: <4C0A914F.6010206@west.net> Message-ID: <4C0AAEDA.9070001@philpem.me.uk> On 05/06/10 19:02, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > The problem with the delete key being a "solution" is that a number of > people who can and have contributed to the list appear to have left. > > Having been through this more than once, the problem comes with people > who actually want to discuss and read about classic computers. Remember > the cctech (I think that is right) list that was created in an attempt > to only contain ontopic posts? Hijacking a listserver is not a good > thing ... unless the object is to drive away these people who are > actually interested in classic computers! Agreed... I'm not exactly happy about the thread slipping so far into OT... What I asked was "is anyone else going to VCF-GB?" What I got was "A few of us, and also we hate the EU lightbulb ban, and another thing......." *sigh* -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 5 15:40:23 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 13:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0A6346.3010302@arachelian.com> References: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> <009d01cb0422$8d167710$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4C09681D.6020901@philpem.me.uk> <4C0A6346.3010302@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20100605133746.G67194@shell.lmi.net> > > socket strip was itself rated to 13A. > > Order a fuse replacement, and you got another 3A. To get something On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Why not come in very early one day, or stay late another day and replace > the 3A fuse with a proper one when no one is looking? You could always > claim ignorance or say "They must have GREEN power supplies" if they ask > "wow how did you get 8 machines to run?" Put a drop of white-out on the '1' of the "13A". Interesting that in our society, sometimes it may become necessary to lie and cheat in order to do one's job properly. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 5 15:42:35 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 13:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0A66A2.9010008@west.net> References: <4C0A66A2.9010008@west.net> Message-ID: <20100605134107.A67194@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I am impressed. This thread has managed to go on and on without any > classic computer related information. And it has also gone through a > number of topic changes in the process. > I think this one sets a new (unfortunate) record for OT discussions :(. But there is recurring content that is tangentialoly related to topic, such as the "rough service" bulb solution to the unavailability of real bulbs, From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 04:50:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 10:50:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <009d01cb0422$8d167710$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Jun 4, 10 05:43:19 pm Message-ID: > It's also possible that some idiot (or kids) would plug in the ballast with So? In the case of an iron-cored ballast (assuming the connector for the tube is non-touchable), there would be no problem at all doing that. I doubt there'd be much problem with electronic ballasts, and in any case it would be trivial to provide some kind of interlock (like an extra 2 pins on the tube connector, bridged inside the tube module, and with the contacts in the balast wired in series with the mains supply) > no tube at all! Maybe even stick some wire or something into it that > shouldn't be there. Either way, I'm sure the HSE wouldn't like it here in It always amazes me that the common ES and BC lampholders are still allowed. They have accessible live parts if a bulb is not fitted (yes, some of the better ones do have interlocks, but they are not common). > the UK. As an employee, I am not allowed to change fuses at work or do > anything with our machines unless we have been trained by the appropriate > engineer first. I think my views on the HSE are well-known by now... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 04:55:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 10:55:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C095884.5030501@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 4, 10 08:48:20 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/06/10 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > > Now they sell mostly poor-grade consumer electronics and a few > > components. They can be useful for common connectors in a hurry. But > > forget trying to get anything exotic (likea 10k resistor)... > > Poor quality doesn't even sum it up... > > * =A335 screwdriver kit... made of monkey-metal. The bits were wrecked in= > =20 > no time, and they refused the return because it had "obviously been=20 > abused". I got a CK Tools one from Farnell for =A320 that was much bette= > r=20 > made, ratcheted, magnetised, and came with the common "security" bits as=20 > well. Argh!. I can remember when Maplin sold some reasonable-quality tools. Like 'Elora' spanners (They did a few very small sizes that were very difficult to find). And Weller soldering irons (I bought at least one bit for my TCP from them). Not any more :-(. And they don't sell tin/lead solder any more. > > * PC power supply. Blew up and took an expensive motherboard and CPU=20 > with it. Even put a PSU tester on it, which showed the +12 rail at=20 > almost 20V! -- "We'll replace the power supply but you'll have to RMA=20 That's an odd fault... With many SMPSUs the 'extra' outputs will be low if the main output is not sufficiently loaded, but having such ouptus go (very) high is uncommon. I wonder what the fault was. > the motherboard and CPU." -- um, the guarantees on those explicitly=20 > state that they don't cover PSU faults. This was for a friend's PC, so I=20 I can understand that guarantee... > ended up footing the bill for the new MB and CPU. Did the friend choose/buy the PSU? If so, I would have told him that it was his fualt... If he didn't like that, tell him to find somebody else to assemble his PC :-) Incidentally, my common comment 'Check the PSU on dummy load' applies to brand new PSUs too :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 04:58:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 10:58:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0959A0.9020007@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 4, 10 08:53:04 pm Message-ID: > I'm a complete packrat, and a sucker for anything that looks remotely > "interesting"... as my long-suffering mother will gladly confirm :) I spend far too much time and money looking at second-hand books. I tend to buy just aobut an 'old' book on electrical/electronic subjects (I think the oldest I have is datad 1892...), and anything that looks 'interesting'. A book containg a scehamtic or ROM listing for a commercial product is almost certain to end up on my bookshelf. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 05:12:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 11:12:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C096176.8030105@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 4, 10 09:26:30 pm Message-ID: > Elektor was (and still is) quite good. But it's more of a "technology" I stopped reading ELektor when many of the more interesting 'projects' depended on buying a pre-soldered module. Building the thing is part of the fun... > magazine now than the project-oriented magazine that it (and EPE for > that matter) used to be. They have recently released a DVD with all the > articles from 1990 to 1999 on, which is a nice step -- not up to the > degree of CCi's "here's every issue we ever published" archive, but > still better than EPE's "if it's more than 3 years old it doesn't exist" > attitude. The problem with older elektor projects is that often the firmware is now totally unobtainable. You can no longer buy the pre-programemd chip (in some cases the 'blank; chip is hard to find anyway), they won't release a dump of it, and even if you can find somebody who's built the project, PALs and microcontrollers will be copy-protected :-( > Circuit Cellar is still going and well worth the money for a digital With the demise of the 'Borders' book shop chain over here, Circuit Cellar is impossible to find across the counter. Anyway, I stopped reading it when it was obvious that every project involved a microcontroller. There is a lot more to electronics than that. > The old "Electronics: The Maplin Magazine", aka "Electronics and Music > Maker" and "Electronics and Beyond" was actually pretty good. It always > seemed to me it was more of a sideline for Maplin's -- something to push > their project kits. Post-1999, it took a rather odd route down the Virtually all the kits appeared in 'Electronics' at one time or another. It was quite a good idea. You got to see what was involved in building them, and what 'extra' components (case, connectors, etc) had to be added to the kit to make it useable. And on several occasions, I worked out a useful modification to the kit anf bought both the kit and the bits ot do the mod at the same time. > 'pseudo-science' track, with columns from the likes of Uri Geller That's after I stopped reading it... > (anyone remember him? ). Apparently this got sold to Kanda in Yes, he was a conjuror (and that's the polite version). > ~2001, and was (quite quickly) run into the ground. > > Let's see... what else is there... > > Amateur Photographer.. can't say a bad word about this. The price is > right at least, and it gives me something to read at work on my lunch > break (AP is published weekly) :) I stopped reading AP when the editor changed some years ago. Roger Hicks no longer wrote an article every week, it almost totally dropped film photography, and the answers to readers questions were misleading to say the least (I seem to remember them perpetrating ythe myth that the focal lenght of the lens affrcts perspective). Oh, and the 'classic camera' articles became only 2 pages long., although even before that they were somewhat lacking in accuracy. I don't read a computing mag at all. I don't read a modern electronics mag either, What I do read is : Model Engineer, and Model Engineer's Workshop (the latter is more interesting to me, being more on workshop techniques, the former being mostly about making steam engines, but you do get useful information from it, which is why I read it). Radio Bygones and the Radiophile. 2 Magazines on vintage valve radio. The former has more on militry/amateur radio, the latter is almost all domestic sets, but I prefer the style of the latter. Clocks. What it says, a magazine on mechancial clocks, mostly antiques. Rouughly 50% historical info (which doesn't interest me greatly) and 50% restoration/design/repair techniques (which does). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 05:19:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 11:19:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100604132936.K22355@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 4, 10 01:51:43 pm Message-ID: > Later, TRS232 came out with a trivial to use serial printer interface that > ran off of the cassette port! GPA made a similar one that plugged into But which presuambly needed special drivers that were OS-dependant. At least with the Radio Shcak board, you could use the standard LDOS serial port drivers. > the expansion port. I suspect, had I been desparate, I would haev hung a parellel-to-serial converter (a handful of TTL chips) off the normal printer port.. > > Alas (for those of us with CX engined printers which can't be replaced by > > anything more modern [1]), they haven't been made for many years. > > [1] Such as the CX-VDO, the one with the direct interface to the print > > engine and no formatter board. It's used on the PERQ, Atari ST (?), Acorn > > Archimedes. etc. > > Also Cordata/Corona Data Systems, Eiconscript, and Jlaser > I used a DC37 switch box. Yep.. I still have my printed catalogue of CX printers, parts, options, etc for The PrinterWorks :-) > > Tall Tree Systems (Jlaser, JRAM, etc.) sold an adapter to connect to SX > printer engines! There was an official Canon SX-VDO printer. It had a simple PCB (mostly buffer chips) that connected to the DC controller board in place of the formater. It was mostly compatible with the CX-VDO, but not totally IIRC. Some compnay (I forget who) did a VDO interface that fitted in the optional interface slot of an HP LJ2 (or similar) printer. I have neve seen this one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 05:25:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 11:25:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 10 07:26:51 pm Message-ID: > >=A0Sadly they don't make them like that any > > more. > > If you have ever used an old light bulb, your opinion might be wildly diffe= > rent. It's very easy to make a filament bulb last a very long time -- you just under-run it. I would guess if you connected a 230V bulb to 110V, it would give off _some_ light (not much, but you would see it glow), and it would continue to do so for a very long time. The downside, of course, is that the efficiency is very low. So to get enough light to see by, you have to pay for a lot more electrical energy. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 06:41:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 12:41:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 4, 10 08:42:24 pm Message-ID: > DRAM in the 80's was a scarce commodity in the US, when the > government imposed anti-dumping penalties on the big Asian makers. > It was pretty ugly; there were even some break-ins in Silicon Valley > for the sole purpose of stealing DRAM. In the mid 1990's oer here there were what became known as 'SIMM thieves'. Burglars who broke into companies and stole, not the complete PCs, but the RAM SIMMs from them. At the time I was working at Cambridge University Engineering Department, and that got targeted a couple of times. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 06:56:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 12:56:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0A797E.2020407@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Jun 5, 10 12:21:18 pm Message-ID: > Yeah, I didn't get too deep into electronics either, but it was fun to > play with circuits... mmm, my kid's about 6 now, I think maybe I'll see > about helping him make a few simple circuits for fun, something like an > LED and batter with a switch, or maybe a motor or two... just to see if If you can find one (and they're not rare on E-bay), get an HP59306 realy actuator. This is a box containing 6 changerover relays controlled by an HPIB interaface, the relay contains are wired to 18 4mm terminals (binding posts, if that's what you call them) on the back. Assuming you have some computer with an HPIB port, you can do computer control of lights, small motors, etc very easily. > there's any interest. If there is, I'll see if those 50-in-1 kits are > still available. :) Sure would beat playing with legos. 2 Thoughts : 1) Lego Mindstorms :-) 2) _Old_ Fischertechnik. The new stuff is somewhat dumbed-down with too many single-function modules, etc, bnt the old stuff from the 1970s and 1980s is _very_ educational. The only problem is being able to afford all you want... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 07:06:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 13:06:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: <4C0A9F70.8090705@verizon.net> from "Keith" at Jun 5, 10 03:03:12 pm Message-ID: > Is it possible to reverse engineer the PALs by hooking up a logic You normally need more than that, alas. It is worth trying to read them out in the correct PAL programmer. Some manufacturers didn;'t blow the security fuse, so they can be read out. My experience somewhat echos the comments in one of the 'Art of Electronics' books -- namely that some manufacturers depends on 'security by solder' They didn't blow the security fuse, but they soldered the chip directly to the PCB. If you are prepared ot desolder it, you can have the PAL equations :-) > analyzer? Are PALs normally just combinational logic? No timers, > counters, storage, and so on? Just formulas for combining inputs and > producing outputs? Some are, some aren't. The 10L8, etc is just combinatorial logic. The 16L8 allows feedback terms -- that is the logic outputs are also connected back to the (programamble) AND gate array. This means you can make flip-flops, and thus sequential circuits. And of course the 'R' series (16R4, 16R8, etc) have built-in D-types _and feedback from the outputs of the D types to the AND array_ With those you can't just try all the imputs and see what the outputs do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 07:08:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 13:08:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100605133746.G67194@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 5, 10 01:40:23 pm Message-ID: > > > > socket strip was itself rated to 13A. > > > Order a fuse replacement, and you got another 3A. To get something > > On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: > > Why not come in very early one day, or stay late another day and replace > > the 3A fuse with a proper one when no one is looking? You could always > > claim ignorance or say "They must have GREEN power supplies" if they ask > > "wow how did you get 8 machines to run?" > > Put a drop of white-out on the '1' of the "13A". Except that 3A fuses are red (or have red writing on them), 13A fuses are brown. Other ratings (2A, 5A, 7A, 10A) all seem to have black writing.. Personally, I'd fit a 13A fuse when nobody was looking and claim to know nothing about it if questioned :-) > Interesting that in our society, sometimes it may become necessary to lie > and cheat in order to do one's job properly. The HSE exists to _stop_ people doing their job. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 5 16:23:03 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 14:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100605141923.K67194@shell.lmi.net> > > Later, TRS232 came out with a trivial to use serial printer interface that > > ran off of the cassette port! GPA made a similar one that plugged into On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > But which presuambly needed special drivers that were OS-dependant. At > least with the Radio Shcak board, you could use the standard LDOS serial > port drivers. The drivers seemed to work with all TRSDOS derivatives. I never tried to use them with CP/M. > Yep.. I still have my printed catalogue of CX printers, parts, options, > etc for The PrinterWorks :-) A wonderful book. Also their SX book. > Some compnay (I forget who) did a VDO interface that fitted in the > optional interface slot of an HP LJ2 (or similar) printer. I have neve > seen this one. That is how the Jlaser one installed. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 5 16:33:09 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 14:33:09 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 4, 10 07:26:51 pm, Message-ID: <4C0A6025.4836.DF9A30@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jun 2010 at 11:25, Tony Duell wrote: > It's very easy to make a filament bulb last a very long time -- you > just under-run it. I would guess if you connected a 230V bulb to 110V, > it would give off _some_ light (not much, but you would see it glow), > and it would continue to do so for a very long time. > > The downside, of course, is that the efficiency is very low. So to get > enough light to see by, you have to pay for a lot more electrical > energy. It's surprising how little voltage it takes to get a glow out of a lamp--a 120V incandescent will exhibit a visible glow on as little as 12V. During the early years of WWII, many of the amateur radio publications ran ads from RCA that advised dropping the heater/filament voltage on transmitting tubes by about 10% and derating them somewhat. Apparently this could result in a doubling of useful life. I believe that some early vacuum-tube computers ran heaters somewhat below the "nameplate" ratings simply to improve reliability. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 5 16:43:39 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 17:43:39 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100605141923.K67194@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100605141923.K67194@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0AC50B.1070704@neurotica.com> On 6/5/10 5:23 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Some compnay (I forget who) did a VDO interface that fitted in the >> optional interface slot of an HP LJ2 (or similar) printer. I have neve >> seen this one. > That is how the Jlaser one installed. JLaser did that, and QMS also had a similar card, I sold and installed quite a few of those. The LaserMaster LM-1000 (?) used a specially-qualified engine, I think, but those neurons are fading. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 5 16:51:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 17:51:52 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4C0AC6F8.4050705@neurotica.com> On 6/5/10 1:45 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > I know it's crazy, but I finally got my FPGA based PDP-8/I to boot TSS/8. > > http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/pdp8/README.html > > It's been sort of working for a while but had some odd bugs. I did a > lot of simulation and comparison > with simh. I think it's pretty close to correct now. There are still a > few bugs to clean up but it seems to run > everything correctly and save files to the disk. > > I hope to agument my "disk maker" to extract and rebuild tss/8 file > systems soon. It would be nice > to build up disks from some of the decus programs. Right now it will > extract and replace the > main parts of TSS/8 but not the file system itself. It's not crazy, it's fantastic! Congrats! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 17:24:26 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 17:24:26 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0A4140.4000202@dunnington.plus.com> References: , , <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0A4140.4000202@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4C0ACE9A.50605@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/06/2010 04:42, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> DRAM in the 80's was a scarce commodity in the US, when the government >> imposed anti-dumping penalties on the big Asian makers. It was pretty >> ugly; there were even some break-ins in Silicon Valley for the sole >> purpose of stealing DRAM. > > I have an SGI Indy that was free thanks to that. It must have been > about 15 years ago, when they were fairly new, and our department bought > a whole lot for a new lab. Hmm, similar thing happened at my uni with Indys at around the same time - except the machines were bolted down, but the thieves cut holes in the tops of the cases and pulled the RAM out that way. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 17:31:20 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 17:31:20 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0AD038.60003@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> socket strip was itself rated to 13A. >>>> Order a fuse replacement, and you got another 3A. To get something >> On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: >>> Why not come in very early one day, or stay late another day and replace >>> the 3A fuse with a proper one when no one is looking? You could always >>> claim ignorance or say "They must have GREEN power supplies" if they ask >>> "wow how did you get 8 machines to run?" >> Put a drop of white-out on the '1' of the "13A". > > Except that 3A fuses are red (or have red writing on them), 13A fuses are > brown. Other ratings (2A, 5A, 7A, 10A) all seem to have black writing.. Hmm, can you take the end-caps off and fit the wire from a 13A fuse into a 3A body? ;) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 5 17:35:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 15:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0AD038.60003@gmail.com> References: <4C0AD038.60003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100605153223.G67194@shell.lmi.net> > >> Put a drop of white-out on the '1' of the "13A". > > Except that 3A fuses are red (or have red writing on them), 13A fuses are > > brown. Other ratings (2A, 5A, 7A, 10A) all seem to have black writing.. On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, can you take the end-caps off and fit the wire from a 13A fuse into a 3A > body? ;) "Of COURSE this is a 3A fuse. See the red dot to the left of the '3'?" A MISLABELLED fuse is a lot closer to being a REAL safety hazard. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 17:52:37 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 08:52:37 +1000 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0AC6F8.4050705@neurotica.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0AC6F8.4050705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: outstanding effort Brad! well done. I like how you chose to do one of the less well known PDP-8 models too - is that model special to you? I only ever knew the PDP-8/E model directly, but I like the "I" model since the front-panel is so detailed, showing more internal CPU state without the need for a rotary selector (as per the "E" "F" etc). http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8i/pics/pdp8i_frontpanel.shtml?small From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 17:59:53 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 23:59:53 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <20100605153223.G67194@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C0AD038.60003@gmail.com> <20100605153223.G67194@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0AD6E9.2070408@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > "Of COURSE this is a 3A fuse. See the red dot to the left of the > '3'?" > > A MISLABELLED fuse is a lot closer to being a REAL safety hazard. Indeed, and a related problem that kind of irks me is how 13A plugs are supplied with a 13A fuse so people wiring plugs assume it is correct and fit something that should have a 3A with a 13A. If I had a quid for every time I have seen something that really only needed a 1A fuse fitted with a 13A, I'd be very weathy by now :) Mind I believe that was the reason behind mandating that all new electrical equipment be supplied with the plug pre-fitted, preferably molded on and with the correct fuse. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 5 18:35:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 16:35:14 -0700 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0AD6E9.2070408@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: , <20100605153223.G67194@shell.lmi.net>, <4C0AD6E9.2070408@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C0A7CC2.10426.14F5FE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jun 2010 at 23:59, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > If I had a quid for every time I have seen something that really only > needed a 1A fuse fitted with a 13A, I'd be very weathy by now :) So, why didn't the UK go for a solution where fuses of different ratings were of a different physical size? That would make it impossible to use the wrong-sized fuse. In any case, it's probably safer than a penny under a (Edison-base) fuse... --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 18:42:10 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 19:42:10 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (tube filaments) Message-ID: > During the early years of WWII, many of the amateur radio > publications ran ads from RCA that advised dropping the > heater/filament voltage on transmitting tubes by about 10% and > derating them somewhat. ?Apparently this could result in a doubling > of useful life. No - it is ham lore only. Many tubes lives will shorten if the filament is run below spec. In some types, life will drastically drop. -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 5 18:24:48 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 00:24:48 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C0A61EB.90205@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <018301cb050a$74a3ba10$60535b0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Arachelian" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2010 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) > On 06/04/2010 03:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Eeek!. Considering that I regard most UK magazines are being pretty > > awful, yous must be downright useless :-( > > > They are, they're mostly filled with ads and the articles are fluffy at > best. > That was one heck of a rant Ray, but I chopped most of it since I'm only gonna reply tp the paragraph below... > > I used to get MacWorld and MacLife, but then, I stopped since a) they're > just full of ads, and b) the "articles" are reviews of products mostly > and rarely anything useful and c) any "news" they might have, I've > already read online two months ago, despite the magazine's date saying > it was for next month, and d) the content was so piss poor that I'd be > able to read all the articles of interest in less than half an hour > (skipping the stuff that wasn't interesting), and then into the recycle > bin in went. Dr Dobbs and C Users Digest used to be good stuff, but > they're no more... > Alot of magazines these days are full of adverts, as magazines (and newspapers) are struggling to be profitable. EGM (Electronic Gaming Monthly) was cancelled for about half a year or more, and after having new owners is going to be (or has been) relaunched. Personally, the only videogame magazine I buy monthly is Famitsu Wave and that is mainly for the free DVD's (usually 2 region 2 DVD's containing around 2-3 hrs of items) that come with it (they feature adverts, previews, reviews, cheats and tips, plus wacky (and sometimes cool) Japanese items). Before anyone asks, no I don't read/speak Japanese, though I have picked up a couple of words and symbols :) Regarding magazine articles (item c) in your previous paragraph), most (if not all) magazine articles are usually written (atleast) 3 months in advance. I'm not sure why it's 3 months, but that seems to have always been the case (atleast in my experience with UK games mags over the past 15 years). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 5 18:58:06 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 16:58:06 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0AC6F8.4050705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C0AE48E.9090403@bitsavers.org> On 6/5/10 3:52 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > outstanding effort Brad! well done. > > I like how you chose to do one of the less well known PDP-8 models too - is > that model special to you? > Edusystem-50 (TSS/8) was developed to run on that model. It took a lot of effort at the University of Wisconsin to have DEC ship us an 8/e instead, since by that time the 8/i was pretty long in the tooth. It also let us add an RK8-E later on for secondary storage, which is reflected in the UWM monitor code that is on bitsavers. Adding the RK made the system self-hosting. You would take down TSS/8, bring up OS/8 and rebuild the system. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 5 19:05:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 17:05:46 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (tube filaments) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0A83EA.21232.16B55CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jun 2010 at 19:42, William Donzelli wrote: > No - it is ham lore only. Many tubes lives will shorten if the > filament is run below spec. In some types, life will drastically drop. Okay, you made me go and get my 1942 "Radio Handbook". In the back, with all of the ads, there is a 2-page spread from RCA entitled "How to make transmitting tubes last longer". Number one on the list is "Reduce filament voltage": "For tube types using pure tungsten filaments, a reduction of only 5% of the filament voltage doubles tube life. A reduction of 15% increases it almost tenfold!..." "For types using thoriated-tungsten filaments and oxide-coated filaments, the filaments may be operated on the low side--as much as 5% below normal voltage--if the loading is light..." Another scam perpetrated by "General" Sarnoff? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 19:27:53 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 20:27:53 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (tube filaments) In-Reply-To: <4C0A83EA.21232.16B55CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C0A83EA.21232.16B55CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > In the back, with all of the ads, there is a 2-page spread from RCA > entitled "How to make transmitting tubes last longer". ?Number one on > the list is "Reduce filament voltage": > > "For tube types using pure tungsten filaments, a reduction of only 5% > of the filament voltage doubles tube life. ?A reduction of 15% > increases it almost tenfold!..." > > "For types using thoriated-tungsten filaments and oxide-coated > filaments, the filaments may be operated on the low side--as much as > 5% below normal voltage--if the loading is light..." 5 percent is generally the tolerance on the filaments anyway. For thoriated filaments (and note the fishy language used - "low side"?), anything over a 5 percent variation is bad news. Most of the popular transmitting tubes of the mid/late 1930s were thoriated tugsten (203, 211, 801, 805, 808, 838, 845, 860, many others). -- Will From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jun 5 21:08:56 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 22:08:56 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0AA8F6.6070800@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100605_154637_029697_E4280A88) References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0AA8F6.6070800@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100605_154637_029697_E4280A88) Message-ID: <4C0B0338.2070402@heeltoe.com> On 6/5/10 3:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/5/10 10:45 AM, Brad Parker wrote: >> I know it's crazy, but I finally got my FPGA based PDP-8/I to boot >> TSS/8. >> > > "As part of this effort I have cleaned up the only machine readable > source code for TSS/8 I could find. Thanks to John Wilson for typing > it all in." > > um.. John's and 'my' (UW-M's) version are up at > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/ascii/ > Sorry. I did see the UW-M version, but I could not figure out how to build it (which is due to my own ignorance). Does it contain all the sources needed to rebuild from scratch? I thought something was missing (but I may well be wrong). John's sources were close by still contained some typos and missing code. In order to get the output to match the binaries on his disks, we needed to make some changes and add some missing parts. What I have now both matches his binary disk and builds cleanly for the 8/I. -brad From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jun 6 01:21:20 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2010 23:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: side-by-side 5.25" drive chassis Message-ID: Is anyone here aware of or have a dual 5.25" drive chassis with the bays side-by-side instead of stacked. I'm trying to get the look of the Apple DuoDisk. I seem to recall Todd Fischer of Imsai.net having something like this, but all traces of that are gone. I really wish he'd stick with things like selling replacement parts instead of persisting with the Imsai S2. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jun 5 03:03:03 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 01:03:03 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: , <4C08E9C8.19709.1546C02@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C095B4A.5070601@philpem.me.uk><4C09331C.17894.272DDF7@cclist.sydex.com> <4C099ED0.1020009@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C0A04B7.5090300@jwsss.com> >> The good news is I also have a large collection of molex, amp, >> paladin, et. al. crimpers from surplus sales, etc. >> >> The bad news is all the firms which sold them off in the LA area are >> gone, along with jobs they created, which would not be so bad right >> about now (or anywhere). They didn't migrate, they just went away. >> >> Jim > > When a computer costs $3000 you can get a decent job and afford one, > plenty of people have jobs locally making and supporting them. When a > computer costs $300 it is made in some other country and you might not > be able to afford it since you are out of work. > > How often do you use those specialized crimping tools, and on what > hardware? The only specialized crimper I use is a set for doing CAT5 > ethernet, got it in the late 90's and use it all the time. > > I am on a hiatus from doing much hardware, but I have pulled them all out at times. Latest was a lot of 8 pin work for a phone system. One of my customers bought a duplicate of what I could have pulled from stock for $300 recently, before I could stop them. I do mostly serial cables, some single pin crimping when doing wiring. I did manage to snag a bunch of crimpers for the big 25 pair cables from amp, ampex, and really never have had to use them, but I have loaned them a few times. That much cabling has finally gone from me having to have much to do with it in favor of a lot of networking, which I don't really do, just have done. I did do a lot of 1A2 switch work, but my phone system is stashed, since we sold our house in 2004. Our mobile home is now served by vonage, and a collection of wireless, rather than the nice 5 line phones we used to have. We punted the wired phone for cell for a couple of years, then added vonage. If I was not so lazy, I'd figure out how to do the phones w/o vonage, but I doubt it would be worth the money I'd save because the voip world changes so fast. I do have free dialtone a few places, but don't use it. Rarest thing I have are the weird dec MMJ 6 pin serial connectors and crimper, because of wiring a data center full of alphas, as far as on topic for here. Also have an AMP press, and a couple of T&B presses, with a lot of chucks for said. Those can go for scrap metal, then 2 weeks later people want $1000 for a set of press, and a couple of chucks. I hate that, and hopefully won't ever have to buy any at the high end. I understand that all of this begs the obvious need in some settings to have traceable tooling and that this is just for hack jobs. A lot of the stuff people probably get are timed or worn out junk from various manufacturing settings. I try to buy at least at the top of the food chain, unless the crimper is really rare, and looks potentially useful. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jun 5 03:17:09 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 01:17:09 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C09681D.6020901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> <009d01cb0422$8d167710$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4C09681D.6020901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C0A0805.8010700@jwsss.com> > At a previous employer, we had a "Health and Safety Officer" who did > this, arranged for additional mains sockets to be added to desks, and > so forth. By default you'd get a 3A fuse fitted to a set of desk > sockets, even if you requested an 8-way socket with a 13A fuse. Plug > in eight set-top-boxes for a network test, hit the ON switch... and > watch as the whole desk loses power. This was his policy, even if the > socket strip was itself rated to 13A. > I visited Unisys in Blue Bell years ago, and brought a custom interface we had made to connect C Itoh printers to 1100 mainframes with me (in prototype form). This was a plant that was what I figure was old line Sperry, because they had these ancient types in white lab coats that were all over the place. Their only purpose was to plug in things and move equipment. I ran across a fellow who was standing to one side smiling the first morning after I had unpacked and wired my system test up to work. The liaison engineer had not told me about this madness, and I saved a couple of hours of bullshit by having done it myself. I always managed the rest of the three days I was there to need to do wiring while Santa was missing from the area. But they acted like it was a reasonable thing to do, and I was to just go along. Another form of madness is when you run into a mixed shop where there are IBEW or unions involved. They will shut down not only your job, but the entire site if you do something on your own, and demand a big scene, and have it unwired before they wire it for you. I know of at least one guy who had a run in with them at a site and the fellow called his shop steward and they halted work before they jumped on my buddy. Really a bad day for the a-holes, because he was in possession of a journeymans card, up to date. They had to reimburse about $2000 worth of delays for that stunt. Doubt that happens too often though. From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jun 5 12:52:24 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 18:52:24 +0100 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net> References: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> <20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> >> Since in this case the first test is an easy one to do (namely measuring >> the AC voltage from the transformer secondary winding), I wouldn't even >> think of not doing it. > > Yes Tony... I have done all of that. The secondary is dropping to nearly > 6 VAC with only 5A load on the DC side of the bridge and 120VAC supplied > to the primary. The ripple on the DC side is in excess of 1V with that > same 5A load. I have swapped in alternative filter caps temporarily > and see little improvement. I checked the bridge for shorted diodes or > excessive loss and it looks OK. That sounds very low indeed. I wouldn't expect a transformer secondary to drop below rated voltage with only half load on it! Are you sure you haven't got a shorted turn somewhere? I agree with Tony that you should do some more tests to see if there's something wrong with the transformer or rectifier. For a start, look at the secondary voltages and current drawn from the supply with all the secondaries open circuit. Excessive no-load current is a reasonable indicator of a shorted turn. If you eventually do need to upgrade the power supply, could you fit just one switcher in the cabinet with that transformer? Use it for the 8V line, and keep the old PSU for the rest? Philip From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jun 5 13:06:35 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 19:06:35 +0100 Subject: 3270 Personal Computer? In-Reply-To: References: <201006010001.28655.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C0A922B.1080500@axeside.co.uk> >> card(s) in it. I guess it should also have a special (3270 layout) >> keyboard, which is missing. > > And we threw out a couple dozen (at least) of those at work last year. > Ugh. They were Model M keyboards with the extended row of function > keys (or was it an extra row?) AFAIK, they could not be used with > PCs. I think teh keybaord was a bit more than that. It had the extra function keys - twenty-four instead of twelve. I don't think it had the cursor pad as well as the number pad, though; but it did have the 3270 terminal PA keys, PA1 PA2 and PA3. And at the left hand end of the keybaord, where the function keys would have been on a PC, there were some keys specific to the multi-session hardware: one was called WSCTRL, for workstation control; another was JUMP, which switched sessions. They keubaord plugged into the back of the 3270 card _as well as_ the keybaord port of the XT. I think the 3270 card intercepted keystrokes and stopped sending them to the PC when you were in a terminal session. The display, called 5272, was (I think) 720*350 pixels, 8 colour. The optional APA card (All Points Addressable) gave you most of the CGA graphics modes, but in only 8 colours, in a little 640*200 window at the top left of the screen. The optional PS card (Programmed Symbols) gave you the 3279 graphics modes. When I had my first job as a pre-university student in 1985, I spent a year in an IBM office where we had these (one for every two desks. Revolutionary!) Among my tasks was writing some demo software for file transfer between PC and mainframe... I also had more mundane jobs such as backing the 20M hard drive onto a lot of 360k floppies... ISTR the display had the same DE9 connector as a PC monochrome monitor, but with different pin assignments. Fortunately I only once plugged a 5272 into a monochrome card, and never plugged a mono monitor into a 3270 card (which I understand could have killed the monitor). The PS/2 was just coming in when I left IBM, and I think the "3270 Workstation Program" used the standard type M on those. So we lost the jump key, a fact I regret every time I press alt-tab... Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jun 5 14:00:46 2010 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 20:00:46 +0100 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C091B19.D97C71AF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> <4C091B19.D97C71AF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C0A9EDE.90507@axeside.co.uk> > Not being very familiar with later-model IBM stuff, what vintage is this stuff? > early 90's perhaps? I remember the announcement. I think it was when I was doing a vacation job with IBM in 1987 [*]. I've still got some of the marketing leaflets - "Welcome to the new computer room" with a picture of a 9370 in an office. The implication was that the 9370 machines were more like minis than mainframes, and didn't need a dedicated computer room. But IBM probably expected your office to be air conditioned... Philip. [*] It could have been 1986. But more likely we didn't get them until a year after the US. From sieler at me.com Sat Jun 5 16:42:39 2010 From: sieler at me.com (Stanley Sieler) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 14:42:39 -0700 Subject: Free: HP Integral (no power supply) in Cupertino, CA Message-ID: <4C553B67-B407-40A2-9CFF-A8E4BC9E0238@me.com> Hi, If anyone would like a free HP Integral (missing a power supply), please email me. It also has a 512 KB memory board. ROM Module has HP-UX 5.0 Second expansion slot is empy. Has keyboard (and cable), internal printer, internal floppy. No mouse. Preference goes to anyone who can pick it up in Cupertino, CA. Otherwise, cost of shipping Fed-Ex is needed. Stan sieler at allegro.com From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jun 5 19:22:47 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 17:22:47 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4C0AEA57.5050804@jwsss.com> Great job, Brad. I downloaded your drop, and am looking at it and admit I don't know anything about verilog. I see that you used gpl-cver, and found a version of it available to look at the verilog stuff. It seems to work okay, but I might caution anyone who downloads it not to try to run it as 64 bit, the outfit who developed it uses code which does not work in that mode. In one of the scripts, run_rf.sh, there is a line which seems to want to load a pli "so" file, which is not included with the cver. The download I got has only what seem to be include files for the pli, and your reference implies there was more there. +loadvpi=../cver/gplcver-2.12a.src/pli/rf/pli_rf.so:vpi_compat_bootstrap Can you or someone share what else I'm missing to try this. Very interesting and thanks, Jim On 6/5/2010 10:45 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > I know it's crazy, but I finally got my FPGA based PDP-8/I to boot TSS/8. > > http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/pdp8/README.html > From eccm at swbell.net Sat Jun 5 20:27:34 2010 From: eccm at swbell.net (patrick jankowiak) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 20:27:34 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 4014's found - and IBM 523 -heads up. - here's where Message-ID: <4C0AF986.7060303@swbell.net> heads up on Tektronix 4014's In the "Black Hole", Los Alamos, NM, the 19" Tektronic 4014? terminals - -someone needs to save these. One has a busted CRT, other looks OK, and is a rebranded TEK unit apparently. Yes, outdoors, but nothing rusts there! Whomever gets them and gets one working, there is a small community that admires them greatly so it's not like anyone would be "stuck" with it. images here: http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/travel/blackhole/1009125.jpg http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/travel/blackhole/1009128.jpg also an IBM 523 summary card punch was inside, in the back. I suppose if you need to summarily punch a card, this is the machine for you. looked dusty but OK. Patrick From george at rachors.us Sun Jun 6 02:05:00 2010 From: george at rachors.us (George Rachor) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 00:05:00 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com>, <4C09220B.30704@verizon.net> <4C08DD47.24777.12394A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E31C910-BCC8-40BB-97B6-C3B4827F035A@rachors.us> Personally seen that lamp... impressive! George On Jun 4, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, to settle the claims of fluorescent lamps having a longer life > than incandescents, what's the longest that a fluorescent lamp has > ever been in constant operation? > > As a benchmark, I don't know if it's still there, but I believe that > the Livermore, CA fire station had an incandescent lamp in more-or- > less continuous service for about 100 years. > > --Chuck > > > > From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Jun 6 02:33:07 2010 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 00:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: side-by-side 5.25" drive chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, David Griffith wrote: > > Is anyone here aware of or have a dual 5.25" drive chassis with the bays > side-by-side instead of stacked. Aware of, yes. The VT180 Robin used side-by-side drives in an external box. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Jun 6 05:03:35 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:03:35 +0200 Subject: side-by-side 5.25" drive chassis References: Message-ID: > On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Is anyone here aware of or have a dual 5.25" drive chassis with the bays >> side-by-side instead of stacked. > > Aware of, yes. The VT180 Robin used side-by-side drives in an external > box. > -- The Belgian company EMS (dead since 1990 or so) had a box with 2x 5.25" side by side, and 1x 8" plus 2x3.5" above it. You can see a picture at http://www.farumdata.dk/uk/enserv.asp 4th picture from the top I have some boxes "surplus to requirements" Nico From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Jun 6 05:05:17 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:05:17 +0200 Subject: Fw: side-by-side 5.25" drive chassis Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 12:03 PM Subject: Re: side-by-side 5.25" drive chassis > > >> On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> Is anyone here aware of or have a dual 5.25" drive chassis with the bays >>> side-by-side instead of stacked. >> >> Aware of, yes. The VT180 Robin used side-by-side drives in an external >> box. >> -- > > The Belgian company EMS (dead since 1990 or so) had a box with 2x 5.25" > side by side, and 1x 8" plus 2x3.5" above it. You can see a picture at > http://www.farumdata.dk/uk/enserv.asp 4th picture from the top > I have some boxes "surplus to requirements" > BTW, the same enclosure (some different mounting hardware") was used for 4x 5.25" plus 1x 3.5" From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 6 06:02:42 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 07:02:42 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> >Brad Parker wrote: > I know it's crazy, but I finally got my FPGA based PDP-8/I to boot TSS/8. > > http://colo3.heeltoe.com/download/pdp8/README.html > > It's been sort of working for a while but had some odd bugs. I did a > lot of simulation and comparison > with simh. I think it's pretty close to correct now. There are still > a few bugs to clean up but it seems to run > everything correctly and save files to the disk Congratulations are in order! This is certainly a different approach from the software implementation approach taken by SIMH. Many times, using two different methods will highlight problems that each one has since the results should be identical. By this time, SIMH is likely to be getting almost everything right, but there always seems to be isolated cases. As most of the classiccmp list knows, my addiction is the software on the PDP-11, mostly running RT-11, but of late making the same program also run under RSTS/E, TSX-Plus and RTEM. From that point of view, can you possibly answer two questions? (a) Without being very accurate, and based on your experience with the PDP-8, how long do you think that it would take you to implement a PDP-11? Just a rough estimate in months or years! (b) About how fast might the FPGA solution be compared to something like a PDP-11/93? Again, just a rough estimate like 10 or 20 times as fast. One advantage of SIMH and Ersatz-11 is that when a faster X86 CPU arrives, the emulation is automatically faster. Plus there is no additional FPGA hardware required for each additional user, just a standard PC which are usually generally available for other purposes such as e-mail. Note, however, that terminal emulation such as a VT100 may not be automatic, especially under Ersatz-11 for 132 character mode text lines in full screen mode. I had to test a number of video cards before I found one that managed to support 132 character text lines using the full screen mode. As for how fast the emulation can be, my preliminary tests on a 2.66 GHz Intel 8200 core 2 duo CPU is about 100 times the speed of a PDP-11/93 for just the CPU speed and about 200 times the hard disk speeds of most Qbus EDSI or SCSI hard drives using SATA II 300 GB drives. And talk about crazy, how much am I addicted to RT-11 when a Y3K bug fix is actively being researched as to what the technical problems will be? Or fixing bugs that no one else even knows about, let alone cares about? Any idea why you did an FPGA implementation of the PDP-8? Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 6 06:21:03 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 07:21:03 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Authenticity opinions - Bayesian Filter detected spam In-Reply-To: <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> References: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> <20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net> <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C0B849F.1010604@compsys.to> >Philip Belben wrote: > That sounds very low indeed. I wouldn't expect a transformer > secondary to drop below rated voltage with only half load on it! Are > you sure you haven't got a shorted turn somewhere? > > I agree with Tony that you should do some more tests to see if there's > something wrong with the transformer or rectifier. For a start, look > at the secondary voltages and current drawn from the supply with all > the secondaries open circuit. Excessive no-load current is a > reasonable indicator of a shorted turn. > > If you eventually do need to upgrade the power supply, could you fit > just one switcher in the cabinet with that transformer? Use it for > the 8V line, and keep the old PSU for the rest? Just a suggestion: I am running a Pentium III system which probably needs its internal power supply fixed. When I attempt to boot the system with the 3 hard disk drives on the internal power supply, the system crashes. I now use an external power supply for the 3 hard disk drives and the internal power supply for everything else. When I run my PDP-11/83, the 3 ESDI hard disk drives probably place a strain on the internal power supply. I use the same solution and run the 3 ESDI drives on an external power supply along with a fan for each to keep them cool. As it happens, I purchased about a dozen ESDI hard drives about 15 years ago when they were no longer in demand, but still plentiful. I seem to remember that they arrived 4 in a box with additional hardware to support a RAID configuration of some kind. Each box had its own power supply. My requirement was to use just the ESDI hard drive for the PDP-11/83 on a Sigma RQD11-EC ESDI controller, actually 3 hard drives on the controller. The power supply and the fans in those boxes are still in use after 15 years with one power supply now used with the Pentium III to run 3 ATA 160 GB drives as opposed to the original 4 * 600 MB Hitachi ESDI drives that were in each of the RAID boxes. Its amazing how the same solution solves the problem on such different hardware. The VT103 PDP-11/73 system that I run once a decade also uses an external power supply to run the hard disk drives. Jerome Fine From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 6 09:23:03 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 07:23:03 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> References: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> , <20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net>, <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: > From: philip at axeside.co.uk > > >> Since in this case the first test is an easy one to do (namely measuring > >> the AC voltage from the transformer secondary winding), I wouldn't even > >> think of not doing it. > > > > Yes Tony... I have done all of that. The secondary is dropping to nearly > > 6 VAC with only 5A load on the DC side of the bridge and 120VAC supplied > > to the primary. The ripple on the DC side is in excess of 1V with that > > same 5A load. I have swapped in alternative filter caps temporarily > > and see little improvement. I checked the bridge for shorted diodes or > > excessive loss and it looks OK. > > That sounds very low indeed. I wouldn't expect a transformer secondary > to drop below rated voltage with only half load on it! Are you sure you > haven't got a shorted turn somewhere? > > I agree with Tony that you should do some more tests to see if there's > something wrong with the transformer or rectifier. For a start, look at > the secondary voltages and current drawn from the supply with all the > secondaries open circuit. Excessive no-load current is a reasonable > indicator of a shorted turn. > > If you eventually do need to upgrade the power supply, could you fit > just one switcher in the cabinet with that transformer? Use it for the > 8V line, and keep the old PSU for the rest? > > Philip > Hi I should note that a transformer rated at 5A AC will not provide 5A DC. Because the rectifiers only take power on the peaks of the cycle the power in the transformers windings are much greater than if it was a continuous load. One needs to derate the transformer some. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 6 09:49:54 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 08:49:54 -0600 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> , <20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net>, <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C0BB592.4010106@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > > > >> From: philip at axeside.co.uk >> >>>> Since in this case the first test is an easy one to do (namely measuring >>>> the AC voltage from the transformer secondary winding), I wouldn't even >>>> think of not doing it. >>> >>> Yes Tony... I have done all of that. The secondary is dropping to nearly >>> 6 VAC with only 5A load on the DC side of the bridge and 120VAC supplied >>> to the primary. The ripple on the DC side is in excess of 1V with that >>> same 5A load. I have swapped in alternative filter caps temporarily >>> and see little improvement. I checked the bridge for shorted diodes or >>> excessive loss and it looks OK. >> >> That sounds very low indeed. I wouldn't expect a transformer secondary >> to drop below rated voltage with only half load on it! Are you sure you >> haven't got a shorted turn somewhere? >> >> I agree with Tony that you should do some more tests to see if there's >> something wrong with the transformer or rectifier. For a start, look at >> the secondary voltages and current drawn from the supply with all the >> secondaries open circuit. Excessive no-load current is a reasonable >> indicator of a shorted turn. >> >> If you eventually do need to upgrade the power supply, could you fit >> just one switcher in the cabinet with that transformer? Use it for the >> 8V line, and keep the old PSU for the rest? >> >> Philip >> > > > Hi > > I should note that a transformer rated at 5A AC will not provide > > 5A DC. Because the rectifiers only take power on the peaks of the > > cycle the power in the transformers windings are much greater > > than if it was a continuous load. One needs to derate the transformer > > some. > > Dwight Unless you have big choke hiding in the circuit. :) > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 6 12:07:42 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 10:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 Message-ID: <201006061707.o56H7goI013030@floodgap.com> On review the design isn't so outlandish since it was basically based on a cast-off Macintosh motherboard, but still, it's a Hackintosh of sorts. (QuickTime movie) http://web.me.com/henryspragens/stuff/Slide_Shows/Pages/86_Hackintosh.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Dates on calendar are closer than they appear. ----------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jun 6 12:47:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 10:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DataFlyer 500 schematic.. In-Reply-To: <4C0A9F70.8090705@verizon.net> References: <4C0A9F70.8090705@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, Keith wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Sun, 30 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Gene, > > Please let us know how you made out with this. There might be some common > failure pattern that would be nice to know if mine ever gives up the ghost. > :) > I've shelved it until I have the time & patience to remove the caps. Those are the last things to check. > There's a ROM on there(DF autoboot ver 2.1 chip), and at least one PAL chip > (DFS PAL), and maybe another one DTACK? > > Is it worth trying to read the ROM? > I've actually got a dump of a newer ROM rev around here somewhere. I burned one for a guy that wanted to upgrade his. Been a year or so. > Is it possible to reverse engineer the PALs by hooking up a logic analyzer? > Are PALs normally just combinational logic? No timers, counters, storage, > and so on? Just formulas for combining inputs and producing outputs? > The board still has the +5 to ground short with all the chips pulled. The only thing left on the board are two electrolytics, two ceramic or tantalums and a few resistors. The resistors checked out. When I get a chance to work on it again, I'll let you know what I find. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jun 6 12:53:04 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 10:53:04 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions References: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> , <20100602234438.GV14469@n0jcf.net>, <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> <4C0BB592.4010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C0BE080.3EB15343@cs.ubc.ca> Ben wrote: > > dwight elvey wrote: > > > >> From: philip at axeside.co.uk ... > >>> > >>> Yes Tony... I have done all of that. The secondary is dropping to nearly > >>> 6 VAC with only 5A load on the DC side of the bridge and 120VAC supplied > >>> to the primary. The ripple on the DC side is in excess of 1V with that > >>> same 5A load. I have swapped in alternative filter caps temporarily > >>> and see little improvement. I checked the bridge for shorted diodes or > >>> excessive loss and it looks OK. > >> .... > > > > I should note that a transformer rated at 5A AC will not provide > > 5A DC. Because the rectifiers only take power on the peaks of the > > cycle the power in the transformers windings are much greater > > than if it was a continuous load. One needs to derate the transformer > > some. > > > > Dwight > > Unless you have big choke hiding in the circuit. :) .. and in which event one has to lower the voltage expectations. Here, for example, is how Hammond derates some of their common low-voltage transformers: Ratios of DC output from filter to AC transformer specs ------------------------------------------------------- Voltage Current DC/AC DC/AC Bridge feeding cap-input filter 1.25 0.56 Bridge feeding choke-input filter 0.88 1.0 Also to note, simply adding capacitance to a cap input filter cannot be relied on as a solution, as it reduces the conduction angle of the rectifiers (the portion of a cycle for which they conduct), leading to more transformer losses. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jun 6 13:01:06 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 13:01:06 -0500 Subject: side-by-side 5.25" drive chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0BE262.1030600@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > > Is anyone here aware of or have a dual 5.25" drive chassis with the bays > side-by-side instead of stacked. Quite common for Acorn systems, usually with 40/80 track switches sitting between the drives at the front. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 12:54:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 18:54:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Jun 5, 10 06:52:24 pm Message-ID: > That sounds very low indeed. I wouldn't expect a transformer secondary > to drop below rated voltage with only half load on it! Are you sure you > haven't got a shorted turn somewhere? My experience is that a single shorted turn in a mains transformer will cause enough primary-side current to be drawn to blow the fuse. Of course that's assuming there is a primary-side fuse -- but if there isn't there darn well should be :-) Still, it can't hurt to measure the primary current with no load on the secondaaries. If you have a wattmeter, masure the power consumed by the trransformer with no secodnary load (note that this is _not_ the product of the primary corrent and the mains voltage, they will not be in phase). If there is significant power drawn on no-load, then suyspect a shorted turn. > I agree with Tony that you should do some more tests to see if there's > something wrong with the transformer or rectifier. For a start, look at > the secondary voltages and current drawn from the supply with all the > secondaries open circuit. Excessive no-load current is a reasonable > indicator of a shorted turn. I should have read on before writing the above :-) > > If you eventually do need to upgrade the power supply, could you fit > just one switcher in the cabinet with that transformer? Use it for the > 8V line, and keep the old PSU for the rest? My personal view (if I had such a machine) is that as the originial PSU wasn't a switcher, you shouldn't use a switcher to do any form of upgrade or repair. But it's really up to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 13:15:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 19:15:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0A6025.4836.DF9A30@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 5, 10 02:33:09 pm Message-ID: > It's surprising how little voltage it takes to get a glow out of a > lamp--a 120V incandescent will exhibit a visible glow on as little as > 12V. Yes, you're right.. I wasn't thinking too clearly last night, mainly because my cat is very ill :-( I have a set of copying lights (4 off 150W filament lamps) which I use to illuminate PCBs, etc that I am going to photograph. First thing I did when I got them was replace the switch so I could do series/parallel switching. For focussing, eliminating shadows, etc, I have the lamps running (2 in parallel) in series with (the other 2 in parallel), for eactually takiung the photo, I have all 4 in parallel, Anyway, in the first position, the lamps are quite bright, even though they are running at half their rated voltage. Mind you, Since filament lamps are a fair aproximation to a constant current load, in that state each bulb would consume about 75W, so a total of 300W. And it's nowere near as bright as a 300W mains bulb. Perhaps about the same as a 100W bulb. As I said, an underrun bulb will probably last a long time, but it's not efficient.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 13:01:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 19:01:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100605141923.K67194@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 5, 10 02:23:03 pm Message-ID: > On Sat, 5 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > But which presuambly needed special drivers that were OS-dependant. At > > least with the Radio Shcak board, you could use the standard LDOS serial > > port drivers. > The drivers seemed to work with all TRSDOS derivatives. I never tried to > use them with CP/M. OK, right... I asusme the interface was little more than a level shifter, and that the serial ouptu was bit-banged on the TRS-80. Dos anyone have shcemaitcs and/or the drivers still? > > > > Yep.. I still have my printed catalogue of CX printers, parts, options, > > etc for The PrinterWorks :-) > > A wonderful book. Also their SX book. I nevver saw the SX one Bob Davis (may he rest in peace :-() very kindly sent me the CX one. But alas _after_ I had rebuilt my first CX (it started off an a Canon LBP8A1, the formatter board failed, so after a lot of probing around, taking things apart, and looking at the logic analyser, I turned it into a CX-VDO, put the approriate chips on my PERQ's OIO card and got it working. No, not first time, I'd missed off a jumper wire on the OIO board, which mean the FIFO output regester didn't reload). It's a great pity I didn't have it earlie. It wou;ld ahve explained the CX-VDO cabling, I could also have ordered some replacement parts that I had to make from scratch, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 13:20:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 19:20:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free: HP Integral (no power supply) in Cupertino, CA In-Reply-To: <4C553B67-B407-40A2-9CFF-A8E4BC9E0238@me.com> from "Stanley Sieler" at Jun 5, 10 02:42:39 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > If anyone would like a free HP Integral (missing a power supply), please > email me. It also has a 512 KB memory board. > ROM Module has HP-UX 5.0 I assume no ROM expansion board in the ROM module... > > Second expansion slot is empy. > > Has keyboard (and cable), internal printer, internal floppy. > > No mouse. The mouse wasn't incuded as standard with the Integral anyway. It is a normal HP-HIL mouse if you want to add one. Just to clarify : What exactly is missing? THe PSU PCB, or the entire lower chassis (PSU, HPIB connector, expanion backplane)? The PSU iteself is a fairly normal SMPSU, although IIRC it does have one or two strange output voltages for the printer and the display. No I am not consideirng try to get it shipped across the Pond :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 13:52:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 19:52:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0ACE9A.50605@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 5, 10 05:24:26 pm Message-ID: > Hmm, similar thing happened at my uni with Indys at around the same time - > except the machines were bolted down, but the thieves cut holes in the tops of > the cases and pulled the RAM out that way. When the SIMM thieves hit Cambridge University when I was working there, we discovered that if the PCs were assembed with normal screws, the theives simply undid them and whipped out the SIMMs, doing little damage. But if the cases were locked in some way (I seem to remembr Inmac did various PC case locks at the tiem), then they were opened with a crowbar. The memoery still disapperaed, but a lot more damage was done. In fact the recomendation went round _not_ to use PC case locks as a result of this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 13:53:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 19:53:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0AD038.60003@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 5, 10 05:31:20 pm Message-ID: > Hmm, can you take the end-caps off and fit the wire from a 13A fuse into a 3A > body? ;) You probably can, but IMHO a fuse that does not blow at the current you'd expect it to blow at is downright dangerous. It's going to end up somwhere you don't expect, and the results of it not blowing could be very nasty. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 14:02:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 20:02:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0AD6E9.2070408@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Jun 5, 10 11:59:53 pm Message-ID: > > Indeed, and a related problem that kind of irks me is how 13A plugs are > supplied with a 13A fuse so people wiring plugs assume it is correct and They're not. Last time I looked, MK (large, and good, manufacturer of plugs, socket outlets, light switches, etc), listed their 13A BS1363 plug with either a 3A or a 13A fuse pre-fitted. The fact that very few companies stock the former is a problem, though. > fit something that should have a 3A with a 13A. I can't be the only person to have a jam jar full of new 13A fuses that I'vve removed from new plugs that I am fitting... > > If I had a quid for every time I have seen something that really only > needed a 1A fuse fitted with a 13A, I'd be very weathy by now :) I don;t beleive you should ever fit a 1A fuse in a BS1363 mains plug. I have never need a 1A fuse that complies with BS1362 (the lowest rated such fuse I've seen is 2A), the 1A fuse may not be able to stand the fault current without exploding, say. > > Mind I believe that was the reason behind mandating that all new > electrical equipment be supplied with the plug pre-fitted, preferably > molded on and with the correct fuse. I regard those moulded-on plugs as being dangerous!. They do not have proper strain-releive for the cable (many times the outer sheath has pulled out of the mounted plug body, you xan't check the wires are properly connected (not just haning on a couple of strands), darn it, I've had them with live/neutral reversed. Most of the time I cut them off and fit an MK or Duraplug (acutally the same company). Then I know it's done properly. Oh, and watch out for another thing. At least one country uses a connecotr that is mechancially compatible with the UK BS1363 13A socket, but on a 15A radial circuit. This is not a problem, the connector will easily handly 15A _but_ the plugs used in that country generally do not contain fuses. Somewhere I have a 'kettle lead' with what appears to be an unfused 13A plug on one end.. Needless to say using that on the normal UK ring main circuit (fused at 30A) could be dangerous. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 14:06:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 20:06:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0A7CC2.10426.14F5FE5@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 5, 10 04:35:14 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Jun 2010 at 23:59, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > > > If I had a quid for every time I have seen something that really only > > needed a 1A fuse fitted with a 13A, I'd be very weathy by now :) > > So, why didn't the UK go for a solution where fuses of different > ratings were of a different physical size? That would make it > impossible to use the wrong-sized fuse. Some consumer units (the main fusebox next to the electricity meter) do use catridge fuses, and in that case, they are of different sizes so you can't put a 30A funs in a 5a holder (actually, I think the 15A and20A cartridges are the same size, but putting a 20A fuse in a 15A circuit is not _that_ dangerous). But the fuse we are taliking aobut in this thread is a cartridge fuse inside every mains plug. The plug is rated at 13A, it contains a holder in series with the live pin that takes a fuse. This fuse is a standard size (IIRC, 1" long, 1/4" in diameter). You thus only have to buy one type of plug, and are suppsoed to fit the fuse approperate to the load. > > In any case, it's probably safer than a penny under a (Edison-base) > fuse... Err, yes.. .Wrapping blown cartridge fuses in aluminium foil is a common, dangerous, trick over here. Don't do it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 14:11:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 20:11:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: side-by-side 5.25" drive chassis In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jun 5, 10 11:21:20 pm Message-ID: > > > Is anyone here aware of or have a dual 5.25" drive chassis with the bays > side-by-side instead of stacked. I'm trying to get the look of the Apple They existed. I haev both half-height and full-height versions designed for use with the BBC micro, although I susepct the latter was home-made. If oyu know sombody with a sheet metal bender, it's pretty easy to make something like this. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 6 14:34:47 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100606123406.L98236@shell.lmi.net> > In any case, it's probably safer than a penny under a (Edison-base) > fuse... aka "Lincoln-base" From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 6 14:48:16 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:48:16 -0700 Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: <201006061707.o56H7goI013030@floodgap.com> References: <201006061707.o56H7goI013030@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 10:07 AM -0700 6/6/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >On review the design isn't so outlandish since it was basically based on a >cast-off Macintosh motherboard, but still, it's a Hackintosh of sorts. >(QuickTime movie) > >http://web.me.com/henryspragens/stuff/Slide_Shows/Pages/86_Hackintosh.html There were several such systems in the 80's, and I believe some were commercially produced. Somewhere I might still have a book that is either on repairing old Mac's or hacking on their hardware that talked about several such systems, but I think I donated it to the Library a few years ago when I ran out of room. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 6 14:55:45 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:55:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 6, 10 12:48:16 pm" Message-ID: <201006061955.o56JtjGF018372@floodgap.com> > > On review the design isn't so outlandish since it was basically based on a > > cast-off Macintosh motherboard, but still, it's a Hackintosh of sorts. > > (QuickTime movie) > > > > http://web.me.com/henryspragens/stuff/Slide_Shows/Pages/86_Hackintosh.html > > There were several such systems in the 80's, and I believe some were > commercially produced. Somewhere I might still have a book that is > either on repairing old Mac's or hacking on their hardware that > talked about several such systems, but I think I donated it to the > Library a few years ago when I ran out of room. I know about the various laptops -- is that what you're referring to? > -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Moonraker" ---------------------------------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 6 14:56:30 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 15:56:30 -0400 Subject: Tektronix 4014's found - and IBM 523 -heads up. - here's where In-Reply-To: <4C0AF986.7060303@swbell.net> References: <4C0AF986.7060303@swbell.net> Message-ID: > also an IBM 523 summary card punch was inside, in the back. I suppose if you > need to summarily punch a card, this is the machine for you. looked dusty > but OK. Is there a chance for some pictures? -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 6 14:58:08 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 12:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100606125352.X98236@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Yep.. I still have my printed catalogue of CX printers, parts, options, > > > etc for The PrinterWorks :-) > > A wonderful book. Also their SX book. > I nevver saw the SX one Most of the content seems to be available on their website http://www.printerworks.com/Catalogs/TPWCatalogs.html From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jun 6 15:06:51 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:06:51 -0500 Subject: side-by-side 5.25" drive chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0BFFDB.7070905@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Is anyone here aware of or have a dual 5.25" drive chassis with the bays >> side-by-side instead of stacked. I'm trying to get the look of the Apple > > They existed. I haev both half-height and full-height versions designed > for use with the BBC micro, although I susepct the latter was home-made. The Acorn-built plastic ones had a definite homebrew quality about them :-) The Cumana and Torch ones were sheet metal, and pretty well-made (Acorn did do metal ones for use as combined drive bays and monitor plinth - those weren't half bad) cheers Jules From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 15:45:32 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 21:45:32 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0C08EC.9070103@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Indeed, and a related problem that kind of irks me is how 13A plugs are >> supplied with a 13A fuse so people wiring plugs assume it is correct and > > They're not. Last time I looked, MK (large, and good, manufacturer of > plugs, socket outlets, light switches, etc), listed their 13A BS1363 plug > with either a 3A or a 13A fuse pre-fitted. The fact that very few > companies stock the former is a problem, though. Ahh that's probably why I've only ever seen them supplied with 13A fuses :) >> fit something that should have a 3A with a 13A. > > I can't be the only person to have a jam jar full of new 13A fuses that > I'vve removed from new plugs that I am fitting... Indeed I believe our workshop who service the electrical equipment at work have a fairly large drawer full of them :) >> If I had a quid for every time I have seen something that really only >> needed a 1A fuse fitted with a 13A, I'd be very weathy by now :) > > I don;t beleive you should ever fit a 1A fuse in a BS1363 mains plug. I > have never need a 1A fuse that complies with BS1362 (the lowest rated > such fuse I've seen is 2A), the 1A fuse may not be able to stand the > fault current without exploding, say. Humm Farnell stock 1A fuses to BS1362 : http://uk.farnell.com/bussmann/c180-1/fuse-quick-blow-1a-bs1362/dp/1123029 So I would assume that it is ok to use them. >> Mind I believe that was the reason behind mandating that all new >> electrical equipment be supplied with the plug pre-fitted, preferably >> molded on and with the correct fuse. > > I regard those moulded-on plugs as being dangerous!. They do not have > proper strain-releive for the cable (many times the outer sheath has > pulled out of the mounted plug body, you xan't check the wires are > properly connected (not just haning on a couple of strands), darn it, > I've had them with live/neutral reversed. Ahh but that's what regular PAT testing is for, as the case you cite is an imediate fail, at which point the remedial action would be to cut off the molded plug and correctly fit a BS1363 one :) Having live and neutral reversed is a more serious problem however :) > Most of the time I cut them off and fit an MK or Duraplug (acutally the > same company). Then I know it's done properly. Ah but I suspect you and I know how to correctly wire a plug, I have found most people who think they do, in fact don't. Lets put it like this whenever I get some new (to me) electrical equipment the first thing I do is open the plug and check the wireing, and most times re-wire it correctly :). > Oh, and watch out for another thing. At least one country uses a > connecotr that is mechancially compatible with the UK BS1363 13A socket, > but on a 15A radial circuit. This is not a problem, the connector will > easily handly 15A _but_ the plugs used in that country generally do not > contain fuses. Somewhere I have a 'kettle lead' with what appears to be > an unfused 13A plug on one end.. Needless to say using that on the normal > UK ring main circuit (fused at 30A) could be dangerous. Indeed I have seen plugs like that too, in this case an IEC lead supplied with the PSU for one of those USB->ATA/SATA adapters, in both cases I chucked it and used UK spec one with a 3A fuse :) Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jun 6 16:36:36 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 23:36:36 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> Hi, sorry for the interference... but I'd like to comment on this as well :-) > (a) Without being very accurate, and based on your experience with the > PDP-8, how > long do you think that it would take you to implement a PDP-11? Just a > rough estimate > in months or years! A pure CPU? A few days. Not more. But... I haven't written a pdp11, only an 8 in VHDL. It took me a few days (3,4?) to get a pdp8 CPU passing the basic tests. But that was less than the beginning of the hassles: What about front panel? Peripherals? Which options to support? All that tends to be more complicated to decide and build (frontpanel..!) than implementing the raw processor. There's a big gap between a running CPU and a system running an operating system. > > (b) About how fast might the FPGA solution be compared to something > like a PDP-11/93? > Again, just a rough estimate like 10 or 20 times as fast. Puh. Here's a pessimistic estimation: One cycle for every instruction plus one cycle for every memory access. Makes something like 6-7 cycles for a memory-memory indirect addressing instruction with increment or decrement or something alike. On a Spartan-3 you can run it with approx. 100MHz if carefully designed. There are faster FPGAs as well... Anyone here who can calculate actual numbers? For a pdp8/e I've practically proven approx 120 times faster than the original - and still slower than SIMH on my PC... > Any idea why you did an FPGA implementation of the PDP-8? I did it for fun. I always wanted to design a processor - so it became something pdp8 like. I assume that Brad did not have much other reasons. Best wishes and a nice day, Philipp From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 6 16:39:23 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 14:39:23 -0700 Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: <201006061955.o56JtjGF018372@floodgap.com> References: <201006061955.o56JtjGF018372@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 12:55 PM -0700 6/6/10, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > There were several such systems in the 80's, and I believe some were >> commercially produced. Somewhere I might still have a book that is >> either on repairing old Mac's or hacking on their hardware that >> talked about several such systems, but I think I donated it to the >> Library a few years ago when I ran out of room. > >I know about the various laptops -- is that what you're referring to? No, I'm pretty sure there were 2-3 desktops, I think normally based on Mac Plus boards. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 6 18:32:10 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:32:10 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> I hope that you don't think I in any way feel that your hardware approach is less important than a software approach. Just different. And just as important for learning what you are interested in! >Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> (a) Without being very accurate, and based on your experience with >> the PDP-8, how >> long do you think that it would take you to implement a PDP-11? Just >> a rough estimate >> in months or years! > > A pure CPU? A few days. Not more. But... I haven't written a pdp11, > only an 8 in VHDL. It took me a few days (3,4?) to get a pdp8 CPU > passing the basic tests. But that was less than the beginning of the > hassles: What about front panel? Peripherals? Which options to > support? All that tends to be more complicated to decide and build > (frontpanel..!) than implementing the raw processor. There's a big gap > between a running CPU and a system running an operating system. I am not sure, but perhaps that is one advantage of an emulator. Since there is absolutely no hardware involved (well 99% of the time), many of those questions do not even arise, let alone need to be solved. >> (b) About how fast might the FPGA solution be compared to something >> like a PDP-11/93? >> Again, just a rough estimate like 10 or 20 times as fast. > > Puh. Here's a pessimistic estimation: One cycle for every instruction > plus one cycle for every memory access. Makes something like 6-7 > cycles for a memory-memory indirect addressing instruction with > increment or decrement or something alike. On a Spartan-3 you can run > it with approx. 100MHz if carefully designed. There are faster FPGAs > as well... > Anyone here who can calculate actual numbers? For a pdp8/e I've > practically proven approx 120 times faster than the original - and > still slower than SIMH on my PC... I must accept you answer, but I am left confused. Is FPGA hardware so much slower than the CPU for a current Intel or AMD based PC? Even with all the emulation in SIMH and the C program, SIMH runs RT-11 many times faster on my PC. And under Ersatz-11, RT-11 runs about 100 times faster than on a PDP-11/93. >> Any idea why you did an FPGA implementation of the PDP-8? > > I did it for fun. I always wanted to design a processor - so it became > something pdp8 like. I assume that Brad did not have much other reasons. My reasons for making enhancements to RT-11 like a Logical Name (LN.SYS) device drives or fixing bugs like Y3K code are also for fun. Currently, I am attempting to determine the changes required under RSTS/E to .Chain to another program with an arbitrary device and PPN, then back to the original program - also with an arbitrary device and PPN. Since RT-11 does not support PPNs, there is no normal method to include the PPN in the .Chain EMT request. In addition, since there are two major areas under RT-11 where using the .Chain request either does not work at all or is totally inadequate. So I decided it would be fun to see if the RSTS/E side of the fence could be fixed at the same time as the RT-11 code is enhanced. Interestingly, some RT-11 programs actually support running under RSTS/E and probably recognize that there is a PPN when RSTS/E is running. But that was not done with all programs and some programs were probably written before it was recognized that having a single program to support with extra code for both operating systems was less work than two separate programs. > Best wishes and a nice day, Thank You. You also It is sort of fun playing with the old software when there is no deadline to finish the code. Jerome Fine From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jun 6 19:03:31 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 02:03:31 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4C0C3753.8090803@hachti.de> > I am not sure, but perhaps that is one advantage of an emulator. Since > there > is absolutely no hardware involved (well 99% of the time), many of those > questions > do not even arise, let alone need to be solved. Yes, but there isn't something you can actually touch. It's just an emulator... BTW I just had a crashed RK05 a few minutes ago - had to clean head and disk... now running fine again... > I must accept you answer, but I am left confused. Is FPGA hardware so > much slower than > the CPU for a current Intel or AMD based PC? Hey, it's reconfigurable logic! And yes, it's slower than a multi-GHz PC processor with all it's tricks to execute code even faster than you assume. There might be FPGA hardware that can run as fast as 400-500MHz I suppose - but that's still far from a modern PC cpu. On the other hand it's no problem to put a few more pdp8 CPUs into one FPGA... FPGAs can do everything in parallel - and they consume less space and power than the whole simulation environment. > Thank You. You also It is sort of fun playing with the old software > when there is no deadline to finish the code. :-) Of course! Currently I'm still worrying about that RK05 disk I'm just dumping... Hope it gets through before I have to clean it again... There is still some noise - but no read errors so far... Best wishes, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jun 6 20:20:17 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 03:20:17 +0200 Subject: New RK05 16 sector packs on eBay Message-ID: <4C0C4951.5010604@hachti.de> Hi, if anybody is interested: 190403152570 And yes, it's me.... :-) Regards, Philipp From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Jun 6 21:05:01 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 22:05:01 -0400 Subject: OT; Vintage TV's to be rescued Message-ID: <4C0C53CD.1090709@comcast.net> I'm not sure if I mentioned it here but I have some photos from the office building that I was talking about 2 wks ago. There's more rooms of this, some are mostly 70's stuff, there's 4 floors of stuff here - all jam packed. But the other problem is getting a bigger flashlight as there's no electric in the building. They only have one floor being lighted at a time with a generator as they clean it out.. It's slow going as they only spend 1 or 2 times a week to cleanup the place. But I can reserve any TV's if they know someone is going to pick them up. My buddy's shop is running out of space, so there's little chance of storing any more TV's for a future pickup/delivery. This place is located in Pittsburgh,PA. I plan to get some more photos next wknd of any interesting TV's. http://picasaweb.google.com/ragooman/VintageTVRescuePittsburgh2010 =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 6 21:21:39 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 19:21:39 -0700 Subject: OT; Vintage TV's to be rescued In-Reply-To: <4C0C53CD.1090709@comcast.net> References: <4C0C53CD.1090709@comcast.net> Message-ID: Not sure what the story is there (looking back about a month didn't give a clue), but I think most of those TV's are more 50's vintage, maybe 60's, definitely not 70's. Zane At 10:05 PM -0400 6/6/10, Dan Roganti wrote: >I'm not sure if I mentioned it here but I have some photos from the >office building that I was talking about 2 wks ago. There's more >rooms of this, some are mostly 70's stuff, there's 4 floors of stuff >here - all jam packed. But the other problem is getting a bigger >flashlight as there's no electric in the building. They only have >one floor being lighted at a time with a generator as they clean it >out.. It's slow going as they only spend 1 or 2 times a week to >cleanup the place. But I can reserve any TV's if they know someone >is going to pick them up. My buddy's shop is running out of space, >so there's little chance of storing any more TV's for a future >pickup/delivery. This place is located in Pittsburgh,PA. I plan to >get some more photos next wknd of any interesting TV's. >http://picasaweb.google.com/ragooman/VintageTVRescuePittsburgh2010 > >=Dan > >-- >http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Jun 6 21:30:13 2010 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 19:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT; Vintage TV's to be rescued In-Reply-To: <4C0C53CD.1090709@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1888.1116.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I think there is a fair amount of interest in televisions of the vintage appearing in those photographs. An internet search turns up websites of multiple serious collectors, and I see old TVs selling on eBay all the time. I wonder if these folks might be able to point you to collectors or organizations in the area: http://www.earlytelevision.org/ --Bill From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jun 6 22:23:29 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 22:23:29 -0500 Subject: JetDirect problems Message-ID: I tried to attach a LaserJet III to a JetDirect EX Plus. The printer looks like it's ok. It can print a test page from the control panel just fine. I haven't tried to attach it to a computer parallel port yet, so I haven't ruled out the parallel port on the printer and cable yet. I installed the HP TCP/IP driver for vista. It finds the JetDirect box just fine. I can see in the router logs that the JetDirect asks for and receives an IP Address. Vista lets me create a printer using the TCP/IP "port". When I go to print a test page, nothing happens. It just says "error" in the printer window. I can see the network light flashing on the JetDirect. But nothing happens. Can anyone suggest something else to try? brian From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 22:57:55 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 20:57:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <770770.18193.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I have a published book that tells you how to mount a Mac 128k or 512k Logic Board in a PC case, and make the adapter for the video to work with a Samsung MGA Display. It looks very similar to this unit. I always intended to make one, but never got round to it. Al Keansburg, NJ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cameron Kaiser wrote: On review the design isn't so outlandish since it was basically based on a cast-off Macintosh motherboard, but still, it's a Hackintosh of sorts. (QuickTime movie) http://web.me.com/henryspragens/stuff/Slide_Shows/Pages/86_Hackintosh.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Dates on calendar are closer than they appear. ----------------------------- ************************************** From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Jun 6 23:05:29 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 00:05:29 -0400 Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0C7009.5070500@verizon.net> Brian Lanning wrote: > I tried to attach a LaserJet III to a JetDirect EX Plus. The printer > looks like it's ok. It can print a test page from the control panel > just fine. I haven't tried to attach it to a computer parallel port > yet, so I haven't ruled out the parallel port on the printer and cable > yet. That would definitely be something to try. You'll want to make sure the printer/port/cable is ok prior to doing anything else. Be careful and cognizant of the cable choices you make. > I installed the HP TCP/IP driver for vista. I would stay away from proprietary solutions for the actual print driver portion of it. For managing the print server, that's one thing. But for general printing, use standard "lpr" based print services. It's built into Windows. Don't use the proprietary software created ports, just use lpr, standard port number(windows will default correctly), and if the print server has more than one port, make sure to specify the "queue name" -- some servers use S0, S1, S2 for serial port 1, serial port 2. or P1, P2 etc for parallel ports 1 & 2, and so on. Be aware that these queue names matter so that when the PS receives a job, it knows which port to send it out on. >I can see in the router logs that the JetDirect asks for > and receives an IP Address. DHCP is a PITA. Set your print server to a static IP. There's no need on 99% of networks for a moving printer IP. (I don't care if you can set it on the DHCP server). Just set it to a static IP, and exclude the address from the DHCP server pool if necessary. > Can anyone suggest something else to try? In Vista, add a local printer. (definitely NOT a network printer, trust me on this) Create new port. Type of port "standard tcp/ip port" Device type TCP/IP. IP address. PORT NAME --- this is the field I mentioned above, make sure it contains the correct port name (check print server manual for the correct naming convention). I don't have a print server here now, so just make sure you pick the exact model of printer and manufacturer, etc. Laser Jet III's are/were extremely popular and they have perfect driver support. > > brian Hope this helps Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Jun 6 23:25:02 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 00:25:02 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I must accept you answer, but I am left confused. Is FPGA hardware so > much slower than > the CPU for a current Intel or AMD based PC? Even with all the > emulation in SIMH and > the C program, SIMH runs RT-11 many times faster on my PC. And under > Ersatz-11, > RT-11 runs about 100 times faster than on a PDP-11/93. It terms of pure clock cycles per second, definitely. Most FPGA eval boards (and his in particular) run around 50mhz(ie come with onboard 50mhz oscillator). This is for clocking the synchronous design. So the flip flops are driven by this clock. Most of these boards will accept upwards of 100mhz. There are some internal-to-the-FPGA processes that can run ~400mhz. My limited understanding is that most commercial applications are less than 250mhz because high speed designs are tough to troubleshoot. Crosstalk, connectors, etc can all become big problems. With all this being said, since you have the ability to create custom hardware that can perform exactly one function really really well, FPGAs can often destroy multi-ghz PCs in terms of performance for limited applications. You can create various hardware decoders(video, audio), or encryption/decryption hardware. Provided you can scale this stuff (parallelize), you can just keep throwing FPGAs at a problem. Small FPGAs that are cheap are still fairly powerful. Hope this helps the discussion. Keith From chrise at pobox.com Sun Jun 6 10:52:49 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 10:52:49 -0500 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <4C0BB592.4010106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20100601142049.GR29141@n0jcf.net> <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> <4C0BB592.4010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20100606155249.GY14469@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (06/06/2010 at 08:49AM -0600), Ben wrote: >> >> I should note that a transformer rated at 5A AC will not provide >> >> 5A DC. Because the rectifiers only take power on the peaks of the >> >> cycle the power in the transformers windings are much greater >> >> than if it was a continuous load. One needs to derate the transformer >> >> some. >> >> Dwight > > Unless you have big choke hiding in the circuit. :) Ya... thanks guys. The transformer is rated at 7.25V @ 10A. But it's not even able to do 7.25V at 5A so I think it is the culprit. I can't find any hidden choke either so they weren't relying on any magic. Good chance this transformer has been "bad" since the day I built the machine. I think I have converged on my solution. I have two new Triad transformers that when bolted to a piece of aluminum angle stock, suitably cut to size, will fit stacked in the same footprint as the original transformer. Therefore, I won't need to drill any new holes in the chassis, will have a "period" accurate modification and the thing should work as was originally intended. Thanks for playing along. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Sun Jun 6 17:05:22 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 17:05:22 -0500 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <20100606220522.GD14469@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (06/06/2010 at 06:54PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > That sounds very low indeed. I wouldn't expect a transformer secondary > > to drop below rated voltage with only half load on it! Are you sure you > > haven't got a shorted turn somewhere? > > My experience is that a single shorted turn in a mains transformer will > cause enough primary-side current to be drawn to blow the fuse. Of course > that's assuming there is a primary-side fuse -- but if there isn't there > darn well should be :-) Yes... this is a fuse but it has not blown... ever. The machine got pretty extensive use from early 1976 until 1984 or so and even with the low 8V rail, it did heroic efforts for me. > Still, it can't hurt to measure the primary current with no load on the > secondaaries. If you have a wattmeter, masure the power consumed by the > trransformer with no secodnary load (note that this is _not_ the product > of the primary corrent and the mains voltage, they will not be in phase). > If there is significant power drawn on no-load, then suyspect a shorted turn. Yup. Have a wattmeter and can make this measurement... however only after desoldering all the connections from the transformer to the chassis mounted bridge and the bridge mounted on a PCB since none of this is connectorized. > > I agree with Tony that you should do some more tests to see if there's > > something wrong with the transformer or rectifier. For a start, look at > > the secondary voltages and current drawn from the supply with all the > > secondaries open circuit. Excessive no-load current is a reasonable > > indicator of a shorted turn. > > I should have read on before writing the above :-) I completely agree... although, I am now prepared to replace the transformer so once I have desoldered the original I suspect I'll be putting back the new ones. > > If you eventually do need to upgrade the power supply, could you fit > > just one switcher in the cabinet with that transformer? Use it for the > > 8V line, and keep the old PSU for the rest? > > My personal view (if I had such a machine) is that as the originial PSU > wasn't a switcher, you shouldn't use a switcher to do any form of upgrade > or repair. But it's really up to you. I agree with this too absolutely. I have another homebrew S100 machine from the same era and it too has a marginal power supply... but I won't think twice about rebuilding that one with a set of switchers. It has no pedigree or authentity to be preserved... other than it is built in a wooden box with a bright orange Formica front panel... a piece that was left over from my mom's new kitchen in 1979 ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 18:12:47 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: <201006061955.o56JtjGF018372@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <416654.45491.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I can't get this video to play for some reason. Cheesy linux netbook no doubt. There was a Hackingtosh series in Computer Shopper. They (or the specific auhtor/s) may not have coined the term originally - don't know. From what I recall they were using amber serial terminals for displays. Or something like that. Who the *h* wants to look at a green or amber screened Macintosh??? Sounds like a Mockingtosh to me LOL LOL LOL LOL. Why doesn't some manufacture develop pink phosphors and really much things up. Don't get me wrong I love me amber and green screens, in their proper contexts. But not w/a Mac. Nuh uh. Somewhat offtopic, but if anyone in the northeastern part of the US has any totally cool PowerMac clones (Radius, Moto, etc.), I might be interested. As long as they're totally cool. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 18:16:42 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hacking early monitors Message-ID: <110260.37960.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I blew one of the biggest deals of my life a while back. A barely used *color* NCR PC4i. And free to boot. It had a horrible death. Well I do have a few green screened PC4s. Would like to swap out the monitor section. Came across a Samsung EGA monitor. The PC4i had 400 lines of resolution, the EGA 350. I've been told in some circles it was common to display that sort of video on something *close*. Are there inherent dangers (x-rays, etc.)? Do you abnormally shorten the lifespan of the monitor by doing that? From pinball at telus.net Sun Jun 6 21:40:57 2010 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2010 19:40:57 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100606220522.GD14469@n0jcf.net> References: <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> <20100606220522.GD14469@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4C0C5C39.7060507@telus.net> Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Sunday (06/06/2010 at 06:54PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > >>> That sounds very low indeed. I wouldn't expect a transformer secondary >>> to drop below rated voltage with only half load on it! Are you sure you >>> haven't got a shorted turn somewhere? >>> >> My experience is that a single shorted turn in a mains transformer will >> cause enough primary-side current to be drawn to blow the fuse. Of course >> that's assuming there is a primary-side fuse -- but if there isn't there >> darn well should be :-) >> > > Yes... this is a fuse but it has not blown... ever. The machine got > pretty extensive use from early 1976 until 1984 or so and even with the > low 8V rail, it did heroic efforts for me. > Transformers are extremely simple beasts - they either work or they don't. When they fail you really know it - they blow fuses and/or start smoking with goop leaking out and making a general smelly mess or a winding opens and you get no output at all. A transformer does NOT get weak. > >> Still, it can't hurt to measure the primary current with no load on the >> secondaaries. If you have a wattmeter, masure the power consumed by the >> trransformer with no secodnary load (note that this is _not_ the product >> of the primary corrent and the mains voltage, they will not be in phase). >> If there is significant power drawn on no-load, then suyspect a shorted turn. >> > > Yup. Have a wattmeter and can make this measurement... however only > after desoldering all the connections from the transformer to the > chassis mounted bridge and the bridge mounted on a PCB since none of > this is connectorized. > Have you tried the simplest bridge rectifier test of all - simply hook your voltmeter to the outputs of the bridge and then using a single diode of sufficient voltage and amperage you then jumper each internal diode with the external one. If/when the voltage jumps up, then you have proven the bridge rectifier is defective. Static tests (power off - voltage drop across the bridge) doesn't catch bridges that fail under load. Further to that - if you are not clear about what I mean by jumpering - you take your external diode and bend the leads so you can place one lead on an AC terminal and the other to either the '+' or '-' terminals of the bridge. Taking EXTREME care to always have the banded end of the external diode connecting to the more positive side of the bridge under test!!! I hope that is clear enough to enable you to check your bridge recitifier which I (and others here) believe is the actual problem, not the transformer! >>> I agree with Tony that you should do some more tests to see if there's >>> something wrong with the transformer or rectifier. For a start, look at >>> the secondary voltages and current drawn from the supply with all the >>> secondaries open circuit. Excessive no-load current is a reasonable >>> indicator of a shorted turn. >>> >> I should have read on before writing the above :-) >> > > I completely agree... although, I am now prepared to replace the transformer > so once I have desoldered the original I suspect I'll be putting back the > new ones. > > Please don't do this until you have tested the bridge. If the bridge is OK, then the next suspect is the primary filter capacitor for your 8VDC system. Again, bridge it with a known to be good capacitor or similar or less capacity and watch to see if the voltage goes up... >>> If you eventually do need to upgrade the power supply, could you fit >>> just one switcher in the cabinet with that transformer? Use it for the >>> 8V line, and keep the old PSU for the rest? >>> >> My personal view (if I had such a machine) is that as the originial PSU >> wasn't a switcher, you shouldn't use a switcher to do any form of upgrade >> or repair. But it's really up to you. >> > > I agree with this too absolutely. > > I have another homebrew S100 machine from the same era and it too has > a marginal power supply... but I won't think twice about rebuilding > that one with a set of switchers. It has no pedigree or authentity to > be preserved... other than it is built in a wooden box with a bright > orange Formica front panel... a piece that was left over from my mom's > new kitchen in 1979 ;-) > > Chris > > Switchers are great for protecting against power supply failures, however some reset circuits assume linear supplies and don't work reliably with switching supplies unless you modify them so the voltage rails go up as the system expects. If you decide against switches get TRANSORPS for the critical voltage lines to clamp the voltage (and blow fuses) if the linear supply voltage rises due to failure. John :-#)# PS - my experience is in servicing tube and solid state equipment since the 1960s - since the mid 70s as a living (flippers.com ;-). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 7 02:16:52 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 01:16:52 -0600 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C0C9CE4.1000904@jetnet.ab.ca> Keith wrote: > With all this being said, since you have the ability to create custom > hardware that can perform exactly one function really really well, FPGAs > can often destroy multi-ghz PCs in terms of performance for limited > applications. You can create various hardware decoders(video, audio), or > encryption/decryption hardware. Provided you can scale this stuff > (parallelize), you can just keep throwing FPGAs at a problem. Small > FPGAs that are cheap are still fairly powerful. You make it sound like, a PDP 8 with 4K of core has no useful use at all. :) > Hope this helps the discussion. > > Keith Looking back with the emulators, of vintage hardware it is the fact that expensive things like mass-storage could be shared among several people. I have just been installing some PDP 8 software on a IDE drive and even with the small size of PDP 8 disks ( 2048k max ) you sure can see how small programs and data was back then. With a PDP 8 multi-tasking the programs I expect where dog slow, but they could run with larger memory and disks a larger machine could justify. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 7 03:34:55 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 10:34:55 +0200 Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: <4C0C7009.5070500@verizon.net> References: <4C0C7009.5070500@verizon.net> Message-ID: <542040911800423ABCB037F6B65E4A67@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Keith > Verzonden: maandag 7 juni 2010 6:05 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: JetDirect problems > > Brian Lanning wrote: > > I tried to attach a LaserJet III to a JetDirect EX Plus. > The printer > > looks like it's ok. It can print a test page from the > control panel > > just fine. I haven't tried to attach it to a computer > parallel port > > yet, so I haven't ruled out the parallel port on the > printer and cable > > yet. > > That would definitely be something to try. You'll want to > make sure the printer/port/cable is ok prior to doing > anything else. Be careful and cognizant of the cable choices > you make. > > > I installed the HP TCP/IP driver for vista. > > I would stay away from proprietary solutions for the actual > print driver portion of it. For managing the print server, > that's one thing. But for general printing, use standard > "lpr" based print services. It's built into Windows. Don't > use the proprietary software created ports, just use lpr, > standard port number(windows will default correctly), and if > the print server has more than one port, make sure to specify > the "queue name" -- some servers use S0, S1, S2 for serial > port 1, serial port 2. or P1, P2 etc for parallel ports 1 & > 2, and so on. Be aware that these queue names matter so that > when the PS receives a job, it knows which port to send it out on. > > >I can see in the router logs that the JetDirect asks for > > and receives an IP Address. > > DHCP is a PITA. Set your print server to a static IP. > There's no need on 99% of networks for a moving printer IP. > (I don't care if you can set it on the DHCP server). Just > set it to a static IP, and exclude the address from the DHCP > server pool if necessary. > > > Can anyone suggest something else to try? > > In Vista, add a local printer. (definitely NOT a network > printer, trust me on this) Create new port. Type of port > "standard tcp/ip port" Device type TCP/IP. IP address. PORT > NAME --- this is the field I mentioned above, make sure it > contains the correct port name (check print server manual for > the correct naming convention). I don't have a print server > here now, so just make sure you pick the exact model of > printer and manufacturer, etc. Laser Jet III's are/were > extremely popular and they have perfect driver support. > > > > > brian > > Hope this helps > > Keith The portnumber for HP printservers is 9100 And you could try to reach the Jetdirect with a browser on it's IP-address (Java must be enabled) If you can reach the Jetdirect switch everything except TCP/IP off so no netbios/IPX etc.. Just TCP/IP and yes a static IP-address is preferred. If you know the hostname of the printer you could try to connect without filling in the IP-address. -Rik From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Jun 7 05:02:01 2010 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 11:02:01 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <201006041438.o54Ec43g014504@floodgap.com> <4C09378B.4000805@vaxen.net> <4C097128.4070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100607100201.GA10116@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Jun 04, 2010 at 03:02:11PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Powell's Books actually asks you to check your bags when you enter the > store. " It's OK, I checked it before leaving home " -- David Cantrell | Bourgeois reactionary pig All principles of gravity are negated by fear -- Cartoon Law V From david at cantrell.org.uk Mon Jun 7 05:05:37 2010 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 11:05:37 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <20100605133746.G67194@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100607100537.GB10116@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Sat, Jun 05, 2010 at 01:08:51PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > The HSE exists to _stop_ people doing their job. No, stupid people who don't know what they're talking about who make stuff up about Elf Ant Safe Tea are the people who exist to stop people doing their job. The HSE are mostly sane. -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist You know you're getting old when you fancy the teenager's parent and ignore the teenager -- Paul M in uknot From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 05:53:05 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 11:53:05 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100607100537.GB10116@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20100605133746.G67194@shell.lmi.net> <20100607100537.GB10116@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20100607115305.20541ectwicqhodc@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Quoting David Cantrell : > On Sat, Jun 05, 2010 at 01:08:51PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > >> The HSE exists to _stop_ people doing their job. > > No, stupid people who don't know what they're talking about who make > stuff up about Elf Ant Safe Tea are the people who exist to stop people > doing their job. The HSE are mostly sane. Or more to the point the HSE exist to try and make sure people THINK about safety, even if they want to ignore the issue. Like a lot of things people think it will never happen to them and get one hell of a shock when it does :( Besides a lot of the anicdotal stories about how the HSE supposedly stopped people doing stuff, when you look deaper it's not actually the HSE to blame. Cheers. Phill. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Jun 7 06:06:35 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 07:06:35 -0400 Subject: OT; Vintage TV's to be rescued In-Reply-To: References: <4C0C53CD.1090709@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C0CD2BB.4080002@comcast.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Not sure what the story is there (looking back about a month didn't > give a clue), but I think most of those TV's are more 50's vintage, > maybe 60's, definitely not 70's. some are from the 40's too I think - but I'm no expert. I didn't take any photo's of the 70s or later stuff, but it is about 70% of total inventory there. Also, I didn't bother to take photos of the water damaged antique TV's, since the cabinet wood is splitting and delaminating - the roof has a very bad leak. Those might be a total lost. William Maddox wrote: > I think there is a fair amount of interest in televisions of the > vintage appearing in those photographs. An internet search turns > up websites of multiple serious collectors, and I see old TVs selling > on eBay all the time. > > I wonder if these folks might be able to point you to collectors or > organizations in the area: > > http://www.earlytelevision.org/ yes, I did recall that there's a local Antique Wireless Radio club here in this region too, I'm hoping they might know more people. I went ahead and contacted both of them. http://www.pittantiqueradios.org/ =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jun 7 07:01:00 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 07:01:00 -0500 Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: <542040911800423ABCB037F6B65E4A67@xp1800> References: <4C0C7009.5070500@verizon.net> <542040911800423ABCB037F6B65E4A67@xp1800> Message-ID: You guys are awesome. I'll try all this tonight. One last thing... Any way to stop the classic laser printer light dimming pronlem? It makes the lights in my computer room flicker. On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 3:34 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Keith >> Verzonden: maandag 7 juni 2010 6:05 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Re: JetDirect problems >> >> Brian Lanning wrote: >> > I tried to attach a LaserJet III to a JetDirect EX Plus. >> The printer >> > looks like it's ok. ?It can print a test page from the >> control panel >> > just fine. ?I haven't tried to attach it to a computer >> parallel port >> > yet, so I haven't ruled out the parallel port on the >> printer and cable >> > yet. >> >> That would definitely be something to try. ?You'll want to >> make sure the printer/port/cable is ok prior to doing >> anything else. ?Be careful and cognizant of the cable choices >> you make. >> >> > I installed the HP TCP/IP driver for vista. >> >> I would stay away from proprietary solutions for the actual >> print driver portion of it. ?For managing the print server, >> that's one thing. ?But for general printing, use standard >> "lpr" based print services. ?It's built into Windows. ?Don't >> use the proprietary software created ports, just use lpr, >> standard port number(windows will default correctly), and if >> the print server has more than one port, make sure to specify >> the "queue name" -- some servers use S0, S1, S2 for serial >> port 1, serial port 2. or P1, P2 etc for parallel ports 1 & >> 2, and so on. ?Be aware that these queue names matter so that >> when the PS receives a job, it knows which port to send it out on. >> >> ?>I can see in the router logs that the JetDirect asks for >> > and receives an IP Address. >> >> DHCP is a PITA. ?Set your print server to a static IP. >> There's no need on 99% of networks for a moving printer IP. >> (I don't care if you can set it on the DHCP server). ?Just >> set it to a static IP, and exclude the address from the DHCP >> server pool if necessary. >> >> > Can anyone suggest something else to try? >> >> In Vista, add a local printer. (definitely NOT a network >> printer, trust me on this) ?Create new port. Type of port >> "standard tcp/ip port" Device type TCP/IP. IP address. PORT >> NAME --- this is the field I mentioned above, make sure it >> contains the correct port name (check print server manual for >> the correct naming convention). ?I don't have a print server >> here now, so just make sure you pick the exact model of >> printer and manufacturer, etc. ?Laser Jet III's are/were >> extremely popular and they have perfect driver support. >> >> > >> > brian >> >> Hope this helps >> >> Keith > > The portnumber for HP printservers is 9100 > And you could try to reach the Jetdirect with a browser on it's IP-address > (Java must be enabled) > If you can reach the Jetdirect switch everything except TCP/IP off so no > netbios/IPX etc.. > Just TCP/IP and yes a static IP-address is preferred. > If you know the hostname of the printer you could try to connect without > filling in the IP-address. > > -Rik > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 7 07:47:54 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 08:47:54 -0400 Subject: OT; Vintage TV's to be rescued In-Reply-To: <1888.1116.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <966537.15383.qm@smtp104.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I live about a mile from the The Early Television Museum listed here. If you would like I can stop over there today and see if they are interested. The other Bob On Sun, 6 Jun 2010 19:30:13 -0700 (PDT), William Maddox wrote: >I think there is a fair amount of interest in televisions of the >vintage appearing in those photographs. An internet search turns >up websites of multiple serious collectors, and I see old TVs selling >on eBay all the time. >I wonder if these folks might be able to point you to collectors or >organizations in the area: >http://www.earlytelevision.org/ >--Bill From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 7 07:50:38 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 05:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: from Brian Lanning at "Jun 7, 10 07:01:00 am" Message-ID: <201006071250.o57Cocub017742@floodgap.com> > You guys are awesome. I'll try all this tonight. > > One last thing... Any way to stop the classic laser printer light > dimming pronlem? It makes the lights in my computer room flicker. That's a feature. It runs the lightbulbs at lower power so they last longer. (ducks and runs) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- yankee hotel foxtrot. yankee hotel foxtrot. yankee hotel foxtrot. konec. --- From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 7 08:20:32 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 09:20:32 -0400 Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: References: <542040911800423ABCB037F6B65E4A67@xp1800> Message-ID: <201006070920.33086.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, June 07, 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > You guys are awesome. I'll try all this tonight. > > One last thing... Any way to stop the classic laser printer light > dimming pronlem? It makes the lights in my computer room flicker. Easy. Just run a new circuit from your panel for the printer. A 12AWG (20 amp) circuit is recommended. Or am I the only one that thinks "run another power circuit" is trivial? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 7 08:56:01 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 09:56:01 -0400 Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: <201006070920.33086.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <542040911800423ABCB037F6B65E4A67@xp1800> <201006070920.33086.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C0CFA71.7000007@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> You guys are awesome. I'll try all this tonight. >> >> One last thing... Any way to stop the classic laser printer light >> dimming pronlem? It makes the lights in my computer room flicker. > > Easy. Just run a new circuit from your panel for the printer. A 12AWG > (20 amp) circuit is recommended. > > Or am I the only one that thinks "run another power circuit" is trivial? > :) It would be if I had sheet rock walls. The fact that I have plaster-and-lath makes it a bit more "interesting". Peace... Sridhar From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 08:57:37 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 06:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: <201006070920.33086.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <958214.87500.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > One last thing... Any way to stop the classic laser > printer light > > dimming pronlem? It makes the lights in my > computer room flicker. > > Easy. Just run a new circuit from your panel for the > printer. A 12AWG > (20 amp) circuit is recommended. Yeah. That's what I had to do. My HP LaserJet 5si would dim the lights, and if I had too much stuff on (which was most of the time), it would blow the breaker. For a while, I would shut off all the monitors, the TV (if on), and the lights, hit print, and shut off the monitor I had been using. That worked most of the time, but sometimes it would still trip. If I had the SGI on, I really couldn't use the printer. Actually, I cheated a bit. The printer is against an interior wall. On the other side of that wall, is an electrical outlet, and another circuit. I simply cut a hole in the wall, and ran a short piece of Romex over to the other outlet, and mounted a new outlet on the printer side of the wall. So, now I have an outlet in my computer room that's on the other circuit - the one from the spare room. Since the spare room isn't packed to the gills with electronics, everything works fine. -Ian From ats at offog.org Mon Jun 7 09:07:36 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 15:07:36 +0100 Subject: OT; Vintage TV's to be rescued In-Reply-To: <4C0CD2BB.4080002@comcast.net> (Dan Roganti's message of "Mon, 07 Jun 2010 07:06:35 -0400") References: <4C0C53CD.1090709@comcast.net> <4C0CD2BB.4080002@comcast.net> Message-ID: Dan Roganti writes: > Also, I didn't bother to take photos of the water damaged antique > TV's, since the cabinet wood is splitting and delaminating - the roof > has a very bad leak. You'd be surprised at what restorers can do to repair water damage these days! Even if the cabinet's a complete loss, the chassis and CRT are probably still useful to someone. I'd certainly find some early TV collectors to talk to; rec.antiques.radio+phono may be worth a post. -- Adam Sampson From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 09:24:08 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 07:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hacking early monitors In-Reply-To: <110260.37960.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <227692.43310.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 6/6/10, Chris M wrote: > Well I do have a few green screened PC4s. Would like to > swap out the monitor section. Came across a Samsung EGA > monitor. The PC4i had 400 lines of resolution, the EGA 350. > I've been told in some circles it was common to display that > sort of video on something *close*. Are there inherent > dangers (x-rays, etc.)? Do you abnormally shorten the > lifespan of the monitor by doing that? The number of lines of resolution isn't as important as the sync rates. EGA and CGA use different sync rates, and thus are not compatible. Similarly, PC style monochrome also runs at a different frequency. You need to figure out what "mode" the machine uses, so you can pick a replacement monitor accordingly. Also, wouldn't the monochrome version of the machine have different video electronics? I know nothing about this computer, but you'd probably need to find the color graphic board in order to drive a color monitor. But... I don't know. The Compaq portable used a built-in monochrome monitor at CGA sync rates, but could drive an external color monitor. Another thing you have to worry about is the type of video signal. Is it analog, or is it digital? PC monochrome, CGA and EGA are all digital. VGA is analog. Many other home computers used analog video (Amiga, Atari) at NTSC sync rates (15.75khz, same as CGA), and while they can be connected to a CGA monitor, the color pallette will be severly limited. You can modify a CGA monitor to make it analog, however. Connecting the incorrect monitor shouldn't immediately destroy it. At least, I don't think so. I'm sure it is definitely *possible* to damage a monitor like this though - I've just never seen it done. Be prepared to shut it off if you hear any weird whining. For example, a CGA monitor wired into something that produces EGA sync rates produces a picture that won't sync up - and if you fiddle with it enough you can actually get multiple images overlapping. -Ian From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jun 7 09:24:46 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 09:24:46 -0500 Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: <201006070920.33086.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <542040911800423ABCB037F6B65E4A67@xp1800> <201006070920.33086.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Easy. ?Just run a new circuit from your panel for the printer. ?A 12AWG > (20 amp) circuit is recommended. > > Or am I the only one that thinks "run another power circuit" is trivial? > :) I put a 100amp subpanel in my garage for the wood shop. That's actually on the other side of the wall from the computer room. I could easily run a circuit off of that. I'm sure that would make my wife roll her eyes. lol At some point, I may relocate the computer room to the basement. If that happens, I'll have the lights and computers on different circuits anyway. I guess for now I can just leave it off. This is really just meant as a backup printer anyway. brian From ray at arachelian.com Mon Jun 7 09:56:58 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 10:56:58 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0D08BA.2060807@arachelian.com> On 06/05/2010 07:56 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > If you can find one (and they're not rare on E-bay), get an HP59306 realy > actuator. This is a box containing 6 changerover relays controlled by an > HPIB interaface, the relay contains are wired to 18 4mm terminals > (binding posts, if that's what you call them) on the back. Assuming you > have some computer with an HPIB port, you can do computer control of > lights, small motors, etc very easily. > > Well, that I don't have. Maybe the 1650 logic analyzer has it, but I'm not going to let him play with that just yet. But that's not a bad idea. Maybe I can find some simple interface to a USB port and build something to interface with a bunch of relays. Maybe an old USB parallel port interface will do the trick. > 2 Thoughts : > > > 1) Lego Mindstorms :-) > I actually do have one of the early ones of these kits. Someone gave it to me as a gift before the kids were born, but I've not messed with it myself. So that might be the way to go since he's already into legos. I'll dig it out of the back of the closet. > 2) _Old_ Fischertechnik. The new stuff is somewhat dumbed-down with too > many single-function modules, etc, bnt the old stuff from the 1970s and > 1980s is _very_ educational. The only problem is being able to afford all > you want... > Yes, being able to afford all he'd want is going to be interesting. Some of these kits are $300-$450. I'm not sure he would need a 32 bit processor controller when he's already got his own computer. If he gets that interested, I'll hack something up with a PIC or Arduino board and wire it up to relays or motors. Come to think of it, I'm sure I could dig up an old laptop and use the parallel ports on that as a relay controller. Could fire up DOS and write some simple BASIC programs to control relays via the parallel port... yup, sounds like a plan. Would need some sort of platform with motor controlled wheels to mount a laptop on top of... or maybe if I could find a large toy tank and mount the laptop on top, since prebuilt tank treads should be easier to control - would just take 4 bits. left tread fwd/back, right tread fwd/back. Would need some logic to prevent fwd/back from being turned on at the same time, but actually, could use one relay for direction, and a second to turn the motor on or off, so it wouldn't be possible to go fwd and back at the same time. Yeah, that would work nicely... So 4 relays and two motors, and a few batteries. After that we can add sensors, etc. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 7 12:57:47 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 10:57:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: <416654.45491.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <416654.45491.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100607105530.G40849@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, Chris M wrote: > Who the *h* wants to look at a green or amber screened Macintosh??? > Sounds like a Mockingtosh to me LOL LOL LOL LOL. Why doesn't some > manufacture develop pink phosphors and really much things up. Don't get > me wrong I love me amber and green screens, in their proper contexts. > But not w/a Mac. Nuh uh. > Somewhat offtopic, but if anyone in the northeastern part of the US has > any totally cool PowerMac clones (Radius, Moto, etc.), I might be > interested. As long as they're totally cool. What could be cooler than a green or amber screen'd Mac? In mid 1980's somebody made an immitation of a Mac case for use as a case for XT's ! From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Jun 7 13:21:30 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 14:21:30 -0400 Subject: OT; Vintage TV's to be rescued In-Reply-To: References: <4C0C53CD.1090709@comcast.net> <4C0CD2BB.4080002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4C0D38AA.6070105@comcast.net> Bob Bradlee wrote: > I live about a mile from the The Early Television Museum listed here. > If you would like I can stop over there today and see if they are interested. I just rcvd a reply from that organization, it was kind of lackluster at best. Maybe if you know others there, it would spread the word a bit more. Adam Sampson wrote: > You'd be surprised at what restorers can do to repair water damage these > days! Even if the cabinet's a complete loss, the chassis and CRT are > probably still useful to someone. I'd certainly find some early TV > collectors to talk to; rec.antiques.radio+phono may be worth a post I guess that's all possible, especially the parts. I'll take some pics of them too when I stop by this wknd. =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From ray at arachelian.com Mon Jun 7 13:39:01 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 14:39:01 -0400 Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: <770770.18193.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <770770.18193.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C0D3CC5.3020502@arachelian.com> On 06/06/2010 11:57 PM, Al Hartman wrote: > I have a published book that tells you how to mount a Mac 128k or 512k Logic Board in a PC case, and make the adapter for the video to work with a Samsung MGA Display. > Was this How to Build Your Own Macintosh and Save a Bundle, by (I think) Bob Brant (sp?) I've built a IIcx hackintosh back around the early 1990's based on the 2nd version of that book. There were some issues with the power supply pinouts, but someone who knew pointed me in the right direction. :-) Was much easier with a IIcx since I was able to use a real NuBus video card from someone who upgraded to a 24 bit card and was going to throw the old 8 bit card away. It looked ugly, but it worked very nicely. The only snag I hit is that I wired up both the reset and the programmer's switch with aligator clips to the motherboard: the programmer's switch went to the "Turbo" switch, but unfortunately, the turbo switch was in the "on" position when not in Turbo mode, the opposite of what I expected, so when I powered it on, I was greeted by a car crash sound. The IIcx doesn't like both the NMI and RESET lines to be on at the same time. For a moment, I thought I screwed something up, and was thinking of swapping the RAM around, but somehow I played with the reset/turbo buttons and got it to boot. Was a beautiful sight to see the happy mac icon on a nice Sony color VGA monitor. No green screen. The only real Apple parts were the motherboard, video card, and a mouse. Rest was all third party. The floppy drive was an Applied Engineering external model, but at some point the ribbon cable broke, so I mounted it, still in it's external case, inside the 286 case and ran a floppy ribbon cable out the back to the mobo... Good times. :-D From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 7 13:51:53 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:51:53 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C50995214074AC792F8FE5504B0797A@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > Most of the time I cut them off and fit an MK or Duraplug (acutally > the same company). Then I know it's done properly. I did once find my (then) two year old messing with a cut off 13A plug in an unswitched socket (older house). It was as I was pulling it out (with my fingers brushing against the cut end of the cable) that I resolved to dispose of such cut-offs immediately and securely. Ouch :-) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 7 13:54:31 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:54:31 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2A54F59440DE40C0A6BF45758608523F@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > Some consumer units (the main fusebox next to the electricity > meter) do > use catridge fuses, and in that case, they are of different > sizes so you > can't put a 30A funs in a 5a holder (actually, I think the 15A and20A > cartridges are the same size, but putting a 20A fuse in a 15A circuit > is not _that_ dangerous). Even older consumer units (like the one in my parent's house) has rewirable fuses. If the fuse blows, you pull the holder, replace the wire (perhaps even look for the fault :-)) and away you go. I don't remember anything there to stop you putting 30A wire in the 5A lighting circuit (except maybe the 30yr old faded warning text). Antonio From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 7 14:01:39 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 21:01:39 +0200 Subject: Available : 2x RA-60 drive Message-ID: <3e0a11741a7f58ed1b920051d844ba7b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Available : 2 RA-60 drives. They should be working, as they were spares, and I can add 3 RA60 packs per drive. Pickup only, no shipping as they are quite heavy (50 - 60 Kg's). Contact me off list. BTW, they are in the Netherlands. -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 14:07:41 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 20:07:41 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <3C50995214074AC792F8FE5504B0797A@ANTONIOPC> References: <3C50995214074AC792F8FE5504B0797A@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4C0D437D.3080807@aurigae.demon.co.uk> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: >> Most of the time I cut them off and fit an MK or Duraplug (acutally >> the same company). Then I know it's done properly. > > I did once find my (then) two year old messing with a cut off 13A > plug in an unswitched socket (older house). It was as I was pulling > it out (with my fingers brushing against the cut end of the cable) > that I resolved to dispose of such cut-offs immediately and securely. > Ouch :-) Reminds me of when we where learning to wire plugs in Physics when I was at school (about 14/15). We where given about a foot of cable, stripped at both ends and a standard 3 pin plug and screwdriver. We pretty much all managed to wire the plugs correctly, which was good. What wasn't so good was that the class brain also plugged the thing into the socket and hit the on switch.......at which point there was a loud bang and a flash ! Needless to say the said class brain's hands where rather less than steady when taking the thing apart again. I do kinda understand why this happened I guess you generally wire a plug you do so because you want to use the thing that it's attached to. However it does go to illustrate that no matter how familliar you are with a task, you should always pay attention to what you are doing :) :) Bet he's never done it again tho....... Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 7 14:14:30 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 14:14:30 -0500 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0D4516.80207@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Hmm, can you take the end-caps off and fit the wire from a 13A fuse into a 3A >> body? ;) > > You probably can, but IMHO a fuse that does not blow at the current you'd > expect it to blow at is downright dangerous. It's going to end up > somwhere you don't expect, and the results of it not blowing could be > very nasty. Yes, I agree totally. I was hoping that the smiley was enough to convey sufficient sarcasm, but maybe I should have added a second one :-) (On the other hand, the equipment only exists to protect the fuse, so logically things will last longer if a more robust fuse is fitted*) * ;-) ;-) From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 7 14:15:10 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 15:15:10 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0D4516.80207@gmail.com> References: <4C0D4516.80207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C0D453E.4070804@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > (On the other hand, the equipment only exists to protect the fuse, so > logically things will last longer if a more robust fuse is fitted*) > > * ;-) ;-) That one might need three smileys. Peace... Sridhar From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 7 14:19:27 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 20:19:27 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0D4516.80207@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson [jules.richardson99 at gmail.com] wrote: > (On the other hand, the equipment only exists to protect the fuse, so People do think that, but it's wrong. The cable is there to protect the fuse in the plug. (I think I'm supposed to put in a smiley, but having had a cable "explode" last year I've decided that it really must be true ...) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 7 14:23:16 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 20:23:16 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0D437D.3080807@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: Phill Harvey-Smith [afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk] wrote: > What > wasn't so > good was that the class brain also plugged the thing into the > socket and > hit the on switch.......at which point there was a loud bang > and a flash Our resident dunce had previously done the usual tricks (plug bunsen burner into the water tap etc.) and then moved on to electricity. The loud bang was when he (somehow) plugged a 12V dc lamp into the mains (it wasn't malicious as such, he genuinely didn't think it would hurt ...). After that we watched him more closely, so we were able to intercept his attempt to measure the internal resistance of the mains connection by the obvious expedient of switching the multimeter to ohms and plugging it into the mains ... Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 7 14:26:40 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 20:26:40 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100607100537.GB10116@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: David Cantrell [david at cantrell.org.uk] wrote: > No, stupid people who don't know what they're talking about > who make stuff up about Elf Ant Safe Tea are the people who > exist to stop people doing their job. The HSE are mostly sane. Our (contract) HSE guy seemed OK. When I asked whether I was allowed wire up commando sockets his answer was "If you feel confident doing it, then yes". I never did get around to asking about the building bus bars. I suppose that once the new substation is installed outside, it'll be someone else hooking it up to the building supply - it's not that I don't feel confident, but it looks like a big thick heavy cable and expect that they can be a pig to bend and connect ... Antonio From ml at hejoe.de Mon Jun 7 14:39:15 2010 From: ml at hejoe.de (Michael =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=F6blich?=) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:39:15 +0200 Subject: Available : 2x RA-60 drive In-Reply-To: <3e0a11741a7f58ed1b920051d844ba7b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <3e0a11741a7f58ed1b920051d844ba7b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1275939555.15058.0.camel@mlzh.lan> Wow! 200,00? Greetings, Michael Am Montag, den 07.06.2010, 21:01 +0200 schrieb E. Groenenberg: > Available : 2 RA-60 drives. > > They should be working, as they were spares, and I can add 3 > RA60 packs per drive. > > Pickup only, no shipping as they are quite heavy (50 - 60 Kg's). > > Contact me off list. > > BTW, they are in the Netherlands. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 13:21:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:21:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100606155249.GY14469@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 6, 10 10:52:49 am Message-ID: > Ya... thanks guys. The transformer is rated at 7.25V @ 10A. But it's > not even able to do 7.25V at 5A so I think it is the culprit. Does it have just a simple 2-terminal secondary winding, or is it centre-tapped? What sort of rectifier are you using (bridge, 2 diode biphase, etc)? Does the thransformer 'look big enough'? If it is 7.25V at 10A, that's 72.5VA. Is the core comparable in size to other 72VA transformers? No, this isnot an exact thing, but in general the size of a small transformer core (small being less than a couple of kVA...) gives a good idea as to its VA rating. I am wondering just what sort of fault could cause this other than a mislabelled transformer. > I think I have converged on my solution. I have two new Triad > transformers that when bolted to a piece of aluminum angle stock, > suitably cut to size, will fit stacked in the same footprint as the > original transformer. Therefore, I won't need to drill any new holes > in the chassis, will have a "period" accurate modification and the thing > should work as was originally intended. > Sounds like a good modification. Totally reversable, and it keeps the circuit design much the same. I just hope the problem is just the transformer... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 13:23:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:23:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100606125352.X98236@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 6, 10 12:58:08 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 6 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Yep.. I still have my printed catalogue of CX printers, parts, options, > > > > etc for The PrinterWorks :-) > > > A wonderful book. Also their SX book. > > I nevver saw the SX one > > Most of the content seems to be available on their website > > http://www.printerworks.com/Catalogs/TPWCatalogs.html It is, and I have m,ade use of that excellent website when I needed some spares for my SX printers. It's easy to identify the bits I needed and order them. But the printed book is a lot more use on my workbench :-) -tony > > > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 13:32:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:32:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0C08EC.9070103@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Jun 6, 10 09:45:32 pm Message-ID: > > They're not. Last time I looked, MK (large, and good, manufacturer of > > plugs, socket outlets, light switches, etc), listed their 13A BS1363 plug > > with either a 3A or a 13A fuse pre-fitted. The fact that very few > > companies stock the former is a problem, though. > > Ahh that's probably why I've only ever seen them supplied with 13A fuses :) Why plugs pre-fiotted with 3A fuses are so hard to obtain is beyond me. A local large department store once (apparently) mis-ordered MK mains plugs and got the ones with 3A fuses. Which they then sold off at a bargain pricee. I think I bought their entire stock (something like 50 plugs). I've used them all up now, and I don't think I put a 13A fuse in any of them (Of course the MK plug pre-fitted with a 3A fuse is indentical (apart from the fuse) to the one with the 13A fuse pre-fitted, so it's quite save to put a 13A fuse in it). > > I don;t beleive you should ever fit a 1A fuse in a BS1363 mains plug. I > > have never need a 1A fuse that complies with BS1362 (the lowest rated > > such fuse I've seen is 2A), the 1A fuse may not be able to stand the > > fault current without exploding, say. > > Humm Farnell stock 1A fuses to BS1362 : > > http://uk.farnell.com/bussmann/c180-1/fuse-quick-blow-1a-bs1362/dp/1123029 > > So I would assume that it is ok to use them. Interesting. Last time I looked (admittedly it was some years ago), the 1A fuse was not compliant with BS1362, all the others were. I will check again... > > I regard those moulded-on plugs as being dangerous!. They do not have > > proper strain-releive for the cable (many times the outer sheath has > > pulled out of the mounted plug body, you xan't check the wires are > > properly connected (not just haning on a couple of strands), darn it, > > I've had them with live/neutral reversed. > > Ahh but that's what regular PAT testing is for, as the case you cite is I don't much care for PAT testing either, at least not as it's usually done I do check just about everything I use for earth leakage and earth ocntinuity (at suitable test voltages and currents respectively), and I recheck every year or so. But I look at the values of the resistances, etc. A device may still have an earth leakage resistance way over the legal limit, but if it's dropped from say 1GOhm to 10MOhms, I want to know why. Most PAT testers won't pick that up. > an imediate fail, at which point the remedial action would be to cut off > the molded plug and correctly fit a BS1363 one :) Which I would have done anyway... > > Having live and neutral reversed is a more serious problem however :) And which PAT testing won't detect. I;'ve seen a device which had a single-pole switch in one wire and a single pole fuse i nthe otehr wires -- I can't rememebr which way round. Needless to say I rewired it properly. > > > Most of the time I cut them off and fit an MK or Duraplug (acutally the > > same company). Then I know it's done properly. > > Ah but I suspect you and I know how to correctly wire a plug, I have I beleive I do. I've been fitting 13A plugs since before I even went to school. > found most people who think they do, in fact don't. Lets put it like > this whenever I get some new (to me) electrical equipment the first > thing I do is open the plug and check the wireing, and most times > re-wire it correctly :). Well, I always open the plug an check. Maybe I have to rewire it. But I can't open a moulded plug to check... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 13:40:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:40:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100606220522.GD14469@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 6, 10 05:05:22 pm Message-ID: > > Still, it can't hurt to measure the primary current with no load on the > > secondaaries. If you have a wattmeter, masure the power consumed by the > > trransformer with no secodnary load (note that this is _not_ the product > > of the primary corrent and the mains voltage, they will not be in phase). > > If there is significant power drawn on no-load, then suyspect a shorted turn. > > Yup. Have a wattmeter and can make this measurement... however only > after desoldering all the connections from the transformer to the > chassis mounted bridge and the bridge mounted on a PCB since none of > this is connectorized. As you're considering replacing the transformer anyway, I think I would disconnect the secondary leads and do the test just for fun. I like to know exactly what's failed and how :-) > > My personal view (if I had such a machine) is that as the originial PSU > > wasn't a switcher, you shouldn't use a switcher to do any form of upgrade > > or repair. But it's really up to you. > > I agree with this too absolutely. > > I have another homebrew S100 machine from the same era and it too has > a marginal power supply... but I won't think twice about rebuilding > that one with a set of switchers. It has no pedigree or authentity to I probably wouldn't just because S100 boxen rarel used SMPSUs. But it's a personal choice. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 13:48:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:48:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lanning" at Jun 7, 10 07:01:00 am Message-ID: > > You guys are awesome. I'll try all this tonight. > > One last thing... Any way to stop the classic laser printer light > dimming pronlem? It makes the lights in my computer room flicker. YEs, sort out your mains wiring before something catches fire... A clssic lasr printer cotnains a fairly powerful tungsten halogen bulb to heat the fuser roller. This turns on and off to keep the fuser at the right temperatuire. The rest of the laser printer is quite low power, actually. My guess is that the lamps dim when the fuser heater turns on. In whih case there ais a main votlage drop somewhere. Possibly a bad connection or dodgy wiring. Check it!. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 14:50:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 20:50:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0D08BA.2060807@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Jun 7, 10 10:56:58 am Message-ID: > > If you can find one (and they're not rare on E-bay), get an HP59306 realy > > actuator. This is a box containing 6 changerover relays controlled by an > > HPIB interaface, the relay contains are wired to 18 4mm terminals > > (binding posts, if that's what you call them) on the back. Assuming you > > have some computer with an HPIB port, you can do computer control of > > lights, small motors, etc very easily. > > > > > Well, that I don't have. Maybe the 1650 logic analyzer has it, but I'm > not going to let him play with that just yet. Err, no. But an HP9000/200 machine shouldn't be too hard tofind, and has an excellent interpretted BASIC available (interpretted languages are probably better for kids to use, they can tpye something and get results, not have to create a source file and compile it). Or an HP85 with the appropriate interface. Actually, just about _any_ HP desktop computer from the 9830 onwards has an HPIB interface avaialble for it, but in some cases the interface is very rare. I have never tried the 59306 with a Commodore PET as the host (or for that matter PERQ or an Tekky 4050 series), but I see no reason why it wouldn't work. > But that's not a bad idea. Maybe I can find some simple interface to a > USB port and build something to interface with a bunch of relays. > Maybe an old USB parallel port interface will do the trick. I am told there's a USB-HPIB interface, but it's not cheap. The advantage of the HP59306 is that it's a nicely boxed instrument with easy to use terminals on the back for the relay contacts and front panel switches/lights to operate and monitor the relays. You can test your project using those and then try computer control. > > > 2 Thoughts : > > > > > > 1) Lego Mindstorms :-) > > > > I actually do have one of the early ones of these kits. Someone gave it > to me as a gift before the kids were born, but I've not messed with it > myself. > So that might be the way to go since he's already into legos. I'll dig > it out of the back of the closet. For obvious reasons (based on my choices of computer/OS) I've never tried the Lego software. I have tried some of the alternatives on the web. I feel this kit is very educational. It may not go as far as _I_ would like, but you can't help learn a lot by playing with it. My main complaint about the older kit is that there's no real posiiton feedback from the motors. I prefer servo systems.. > > > 2) _Old_ Fischertechnik. The new stuff is somewhat dumbed-down with too > > many single-function modules, etc, bnt the old stuff from the 1970s and > > 1980s is _very_ educational. The only problem is being able to afford all > > you want... > > > > Yes, being able to afford all he'd want is going to be interesting. All I can say is that I never had all I dreamed of... > Some of these kits are $300-$450. I'm not sure he would need a 32 bit > processor controller when he's already got his own computer. No, probably not. And that sounds like a modern kit. The older electronics modules were simple functions, like a relay+driver, an analogue comparator, a flip-flop, a monostable, AND gate, OR gate, etc. You tended to need a lot of moudels to do anything, and they weren't cheap... > If he gets that interested, I'll hack something up with a PIC or Arduino > board and wire it up to relays or motors. The first FT robot kit was just the motors, lamps, swtiches, pots and standard mechanical bits. No electronics at all. You could buy interefaces to then-popular micros (I have the BBC micro one, there was certainly a C64 version), or you could do what I did and make your own. > > Come to think of it, I'm sure I could dig up an old laptop and use the > parallel ports on that as a relay controller. Could fire up DOS and > write some simple BASIC programs to control relays via the parallel > port... yup, sounds like a plan. Would need some sort of platform with > motor controlled wheels to mount a laptop on top of... or maybe if I > could find a large toy tank and mount the laptop on top, since prebuilt > tank treads should be easier to control - would just take 4 bits. left > tread fwd/back, right tread fwd/back. Would need some logic to prevent > fwd/back from being turned on at the same time, but actually, could use > one relay for direction, and a second to turn the motor on or off, so it > wouldn't be possible to go fwd and back at the same time. Yeah, that > would work nicely... So 4 relays and two motors, and a few batteries. > After that we can add sensors, etc. The easy way to control a motor with a pair of (changeover) relays is to link the motor between the 2 common terminals (moving contact), connect both NC contacts to battery -ve and both NO contacts to battery +ve. Then if both relays are off, or both relays are on, the motor is not powered (it's acutally short-circuited, which means you get some braking effect when you use the relays to stop the motor which is a Good Thing). If one relay is on, and the other off, the motor turns, the direction is determined by which relay is turned on. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 7 15:03:24 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 21:03:24 +0100 Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: <201006061707.o56H7goI013030@floodgap.com> References: <201006061707.o56H7goI013030@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > On review the design isn't so outlandish since it was basically based on a > cast-off Macintosh motherboard, but still, it's a Hackintosh of sorts. > (QuickTime movie) > > http://web.me.com/henryspragens/stuff/Slide_Shows/Pages/86_Hackintosh.html Interesting. I particularly like the music, too... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 15:07:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 21:07:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0D437D.3080807@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Jun 7, 10 08:07:41 pm Message-ID: > Reminds me of when we where learning to wire plugs in Physics when I was You were actually taught something useful at school? I am amazed... > at school (about 14/15). We where given about a foot of cable, stripped > at both ends and a standard 3 pin plug and screwdriver. We pretty much Hmm.. Actualyl stripping the cable tends to be the hardest part ot do right. It's very easy to 'nick' the insulation on the inner wires when cutting off the outer sheath. The next trick you'd miss if you have pre-stripped cable is the correct length of the wires. The earth wire shold hace the most slack, so if the cable clamp fials and the cable is pulled out of the plug, the earth breaks last. > all managed to wire the plugs correctly, which was good. What wasn't so > good was that the class brain also plugged the thing into the socket and > hit the on switch.......at which point there was a loud bang and a flash Waht had he done with the 3 wires at the other end of the cable? Shorted them together? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 14:59:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 20:59:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <3C50995214074AC792F8FE5504B0797A@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jun 7, 10 07:51:53 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > Most of the time I cut them off and fit an MK or Duraplug (acutally > > the same company). Then I know it's done properly. > > I did once find my (then) two year old messing with a cut off 13A plug > in an unswitched socket (older house). It was as I was pulling it out > (with my fingers brushing against the cut end of the cable) that I > resolved > to dispose of such cut-offs immediately and securely. Ouch :-) Err, yes. In fact the instructions supplied with just about everymodern electrical device tell you to cut off the plug if it's not compatible with your mains socket, to fit the right plug, and to dispose of the cut-off plug safely as it is a shock hazard if plugged into a live socket. Assuming your sockets are wired correctly, removing the fuse and holder from the mouded plug should be a start, since it will open the circuit to the live pin. And you can put the fuse in you box of spare fuses :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 15:01:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 21:01:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <2A54F59440DE40C0A6BF45758608523F@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jun 7, 10 07:54:31 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > Some consumer units (the main fusebox next to the electricity > > meter) do > > use catridge fuses, and in that case, they are of different > > sizes so you > > can't put a 30A funs in a 5a holder (actually, I think the 15A and20A > > cartridges are the same size, but putting a 20A fuse in a 15A circuit > > is not _that_ dangerous). > > Even older consumer units (like the one in my parent's house) has > rewirable fuses. If the fuse blows, you pull the holder, replace > the wire (perhaps even look for the fault :-)) and away you go. Indeed, I've rewired those many times. Still have plenty of fuse wire too... > I don't remember anything there to stop you putting 30A wire in the > 5A lighting circuit (except maybe the 30yr old faded warning text). The fuse carriers are of different sizes (or at least haev different size pins) so you can't swap them round. But of course nothing stops you put the wrong wire in. Just as nothing stops you using a piece of 16mm^2 copper wire. Sometimes people have ot be careful... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 7 15:35:36 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 13:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: hacking early monitors In-Reply-To: <227692.43310.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <227692.43310.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100607133024.Q44852@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jun 2010, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > The number of lines of resolution isn't as important as the sync rates. > EGA and CGA use different sync rates, and thus are not compatible. > Similarly, PC style monochrome also runs at a different frequency. You > need to figure out what "mode" the machine uses, so you can pick a > replacement monitor accordingly. Also, wouldn't the monochrome version > of the machine have different video electronics? I know nothing about > this computer, but you'd probably need to find the color graphic board > in order to drive a color monitor. But... I don't know. The Compaq > portable used a built-in monochrome monitor at CGA sync rates, but could > drive an external color monitor. Actually, the Compaq "portable" (the luggable, not any NEWFANGLED) could do both CGA AND EGA rates! Compaq made an EGA card for it (a little rare) that included the midboard connector for the internal monitor!. Another company (ATI?) made an add-on board (more than a little rare) for one of their EGAs for use in Compaq luggables. > Connecting the incorrect monitor shouldn't immediately destroy it. At > least, I don't think so. I'm sure it is definitely *possible* to damage > a monitor like this though - I've just never seen it done. Be prepared IBM monochrome monitor to CGA "But the connector fits!" From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 15:41:40 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:41:40 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0D5984.8080005@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Reminds me of when we where learning to wire plugs in Physics when I was > > You were actually taught something useful at school? I am amazed... > >> at school (about 14/15). We where given about a foot of cable, stripped >> at both ends and a standard 3 pin plug and screwdriver. We pretty much > > Hmm.. Actualyl stripping the cable tends to be the hardest part ot do > right. It's very easy to 'nick' the insulation on the inner wires when > cutting off the outer sheath. Though I usually cut from the end down, and try to insert my blade in between where the inter cables are, then peel back and cut round with the wire cutters. > The next trick you'd miss if you have pre-stripped cable is the correct > length of the wires. The earth wire shold hace the most slack, so if the > cable clamp fials and the cable is pulled out of the plug, the earth > breaks last. Indeed Live : shortest, Neutral next, Earth (if it's a 3 wire cable) longest. This was one of the things we where being taught. >> all managed to wire the plugs correctly, which was good. What wasn't so >> good was that the class brain also plugged the thing into the socket and >> hit the on switch.......at which point there was a loud bang and a flash > > Waht had he done with the 3 wires at the other end of the cable? Shorted > them together? It was stripped both ends, and raged, I guess as he plugged it in the wires dragged along the bench and shorted and of course when switched on aforementioned flash-bang ! Andf I wasn't joking when I said he was the class brain, constantly came top in class tests, he just I guess did this on auto-pilot, or was distracted and made an ummm error of judgement :) Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jun 7 15:45:00 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:45:00 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> (sfid-20100606_070321_165851_38E651D1) References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> (sfid-20100606_070321_165851_38E651D1) Message-ID: On Jun 6, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > (a) Without being very accurate, and based on your experience with the PDP-8, how > long do you think that it would take you to implement a PDP-11? Just a rough estimate > in months or years! um. I already did that. It took a few years, but I only worked on it sporadically. It currently boots (in simulation) RT-11, RSTS V4, BSD 2.9 and V6. I have not debugged the split I & D but it's there. If you send me a RK05 image with TSX on it I'll try and boot it in sim. The last FPGA version I did had no MMU but it did boot RT-11. It had some disk problems which I have since corrected. I believe I could synthesize and run the "no mmu" version pretty quickly. The mmu version need still needs some work do make 50mhz timing. > (b) About how fast might the FPGA solution be compared to something like a PDP-11/93? > Again, just a rough estimate like 10 or 20 times as fast. Well, as I said, the no-mmu version runs at 50MHz. I could improve that. The mmu version probably won't run faster, mostly due to the 20ns rams on my fpga board. > Any idea why you did an FPGA implementation of the PDP-8? back in the day I spent a lot of time on TSS/8. I wanted to run it again :-) And, I want to work on cpu's when I grow up. I also spent a lot of time on RSTS and TSX, hence the pdp-11. I know the s/w sims are better, but I like hardware and love running h/w simulations. -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 7 15:45:24 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:45:24 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0D5A64.8090808@philpem.me.uk> On 05/06/10 10:55, Tony Duell wrote: > Argh!. I can remember when Maplin sold some reasonable-quality tools. > Like 'Elora' spanners (They did a few very small sizes that were very > difficult to find). And Weller soldering irons (I bought at least one bit > for my TCP from them). Not any more :-(. They used to stock the Antex 660TC soldering station. I got one as "discontinued stock" a while ago for a good bit less than the RRP. That thing has had one new soldering iron (was ?2 cheaper to replace the whole thing than just replace the dead heating element), a couple of new bits, and I've had to open the back to tighten up the screws on the power transformer. Other than that, no issues. Solidly built British-made kit. > And they don't sell tin/lead solder any more. But Farnell still do :) The Multicore stuff is fiercely expensive, but the stuff they stock as "Multicomp" (i.e. "whatever was cheapest at the time") is pretty decent. At one point the Multicomp stuff was badge-engineered Multicore "562" 60/40 SnPb or something very close to it. >> * PC power supply. Blew up and took an expensive motherboard and CPU=20 >> with it. Even put a PSU tester on it, which showed the +12 rail at=20 >> almost 20V! -- "We'll replace the power supply but you'll have to RMA=20 > > That's an odd fault... With many SMPSUs the 'extra' outputs will be low > if the main output is not sufficiently loaded, but having such ouptus go > (very) high is uncommon. I wonder what the fault was. I suspect a short in the transformer. Whatever it was, it made a loud bang and dumped a lot of Magic Smoke... Hearing the fan (briefly) rev up to WAY beyond full speed pretty much cemented my (correct) opinion that the machine wasn't going to be doing anything useful any time soon. > Incidentally, my common comment 'Check the PSU on dummy load' applies to > brand new PSUs too :-). "Dummy load / PSU tester" is right on the top of my "stuff to build" list :) I just have to figure out how to do the "constant power" regulation. I want to go with opamps for the regulation (faster response time to V/I transients) and a D/A to set the current/voltage/power 'setpoint'. Constant-voltage is easy (drain enough current to bring V_in down to the setpoint). Constant-current is just as easy (drain a fixed current). Constant power involves a bit of maths (a multiply and some division if you're doing PID control or some lesser variant thereof). A microcontroller-based implementation would work, but respond slowly to load transients (which is hardly ideal). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jun 7 15:55:44 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:55:44 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0AEA57.5050804@jwsss.com> (sfid-20100606_032148_756077_DDAEC089) References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0AEA57.5050804@jwsss.com> (sfid-20100606_032148_756077_DDAEC089) Message-ID: <6D86F917-718B-40C8-859A-EC51625E135E@heeltoe.com> On Jun 5, 2010, at 8:22 PM, jim s wrote: > > +loadvpi=../cver/gplcver-2.12a.src/pli/rf/pli_rf.so:vpi_compat_bootstrap oops. I forgot to include the pli directory. I fixed that and put a new snapshot. The pli code is the "c" code which implements the behavioral models for the IDE disk and the RK05 (as well as ram). -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Jun 7 16:16:43 2010 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 14:16:43 -0700 Subject: JetDirect problems In-Reply-To: (Brian Lanning's message of "Mon\, 7 Jun 2010 07\:01\:00 -0500") References: <4C0C7009.5070500@verizon.net> <542040911800423ABCB037F6B65E4A67@xp1800> Message-ID: <201006072116.o57LGh8F011286@lots.reanimators.org> Brian Lanning wrote: > You guys are awesome. I'll try all this tonight. > > One last thing... Any way to stop the classic laser printer light > dimming pronlem? It makes the lights in my computer room flicker. You have a problem with that? It's one of the endearing features of my LaserJet Series II. The "computer room" is on a string that seems to also have lights and outlets in the bathroom and kitchen. ... Speaking of JetDirects, a couple or three months ago I was looking at the XIO JetDirect cards that fit in the Series II/III. The Netware and TCP/IP cards are the same hardware, the only difference is the EPROM and its firmware. Now, suppose you want to change a MAC address on a card. You might think there'd be a small PROM on the card to hold the MAC address, but there isn't, the MAC address is in the EPROM with the firmware. OK, so you need to find the MAC address in the EPROM (I found it in the last 32 bytes in the image: 0x1ffe0-0x1ffe5 in the Netware image, 0x3ffe0-0x3ffe5 in the TCP/IP image), change it to the desired value, burn an EPROM, put the EPROM in the socket on the card, reinstall, and turn the printer back on. That doesn't do it, that gets you "42 ERROR" and "69 SERVICE" on the LaserJet front panel. Turns out the MAC address is checksummed: that next byte (..ffe6) is expected to be the complement of the 8-bit checksum of the six bytes of MAC address, and if it isn't the XIO JetDirect card's firmware fails its selftest. Recalculate that for your new address, and change it in your new EPROM image too, and it works. -Frank McConnell From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 7 16:24:56 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 22:24:56 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0D63A8.4040305@philpem.me.uk> On 05/06/10 11:12, Tony Duell wrote: > I stopped reading ELektor when many of the more interesting 'projects' > depended on buying a pre-soldered module. Building the thing is part of > the fun... They're going down the path a bit, and I'm debating whether to carry on with my subscription (it's up for renewal in September). If they carry on with the "here's a really cool project... and you have to buy it ready built" bullcrap, they can stick their renewal "reminders" where the sun doesn't shine. > The problem with older elektor projects is that often the firmware is now > totally unobtainable. You can no longer buy the pre-programemd chip (in > some cases the 'blank; chip is hard to find anyway), they won't release a > dump of it, and even if you can find somebody who's built the project, > PALs and microcontrollers will be copy-protected :-( Although in a few cases the article makes it fairly easy to figure out what the project needs to do. The 1974 thru ~1986 era is all-transistor-and-TTL (with few exceptions), whereas the 1990-1999 era is mostly microcontroller systems with little TTL. Very odd for them to publish the 1990-1999 PDFs in preference to (say) 1974-1984 -- nearly all the transistors used in those circuits were "TUN" or "TUP"s; that is, Transistor, Universal, NPN or PNP respectively. Diodes similarly were "DUG" or "DUS" -- Diode, Universal, Germanium or Silicon. TTL is similarly easily available, any electronics hobbyist worth his salt will know that 74LS can usually be subbed in for straight-74xx TTL. > With the demise of the 'Borders' book shop chain over here, Circuit > Cellar is impossible to find across the counter. It's still possible to get a subscription over-the-phone, it just costs a HELL of a lot. Something like $100 for a paper CCi sub last time I checked, most of that being the P&P. > I stopped reading AP when the editor changed some years ago. Roger Hicks > no longer wrote an article every week, it almost totally dropped film > photography, and the answers to readers questions were misleading to say > the least (I seem to remember them perpetrating ythe myth that the focal > lenght of the lens affrcts perspective). Oh, and the 'classic camera' > articles became only 2 pages long., although even before that they were > somewhat lacking in accuracy. It's both amusing and saddening to see them publish an answer to someone's query one week, then publish a retraction-and-correction the following week. Things like suggesting RAID arrays as an alternative to offline backups (CD-R, DVD-R, tape, ...) Little hint -- what happens if there's a power spike? > What I do read is : > > Model Engineer, and Model Engineer's Workshop (the latter is more > interesting to me, being more on workshop techniques, the former being > mostly about making steam engines, but you do get useful information from > it, which is why I read it). I'd really like to learn how to do some more advanced plastic/metalworking (and get the tools to do it). At high school we had a fair few wood/metalworking tools (most of which were in pretty good nick), a teacher who knew his stuff (IIRC he used to work for a metalworking company, retired, then started working as a teacher). We also had a headteacher who was the sort of person who'd make the kids run around in plastic bubbles for "health and safety" reasons. Design-tech and science got cut almost entirely (the latter had all the experiments and demonstrations cut and was turned into a lecture / question-and-answer / exam session)... > Radio Bygones and the Radiophile. 2 Magazines on vintage valve radio. The > former has more on militry/amateur radio, the latter is almost all > domestic sets, but I prefer the style of the latter. At some point I really need to read up on vacuum tube technology.. and maybe re-read the stuff in AoE about BJT and FET operation. I've never been much good with transistors when used as amplifiers (though I know how to rig them up as switches)... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 7 16:58:08 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 22:58:08 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0D6B70.2020203@philpem.me.uk> On 07/06/10 21:07, Tony Duell wrote: > You were actually taught something useful at school? I am amazed... Me too. We never got taught anything like that in science or physics (or any class for that matter). Though a few of the PTA members and a certain headteacher were very vocal about their dislike of "dangerous" subjects... > Hmm.. Actualyl stripping the cable tends to be the hardest part ot do > right. It's very easy to 'nick' the insulation on the inner wires when > cutting off the outer sheath. It's a bitch doing it with co-ax too. I usually end up using a retractable-blade Stanley knife to cut about half-way through the insulation, then bend/twist it around the cut mark and it breaks apart fairly easily. Then bend 180 degrees all four ways to make sure you haven't nicked any of the internal wires. > The next trick you'd miss if you have pre-stripped cable is the correct > length of the wires. The earth wire shold hace the most slack, so if the > cable clamp fials and the cable is pulled out of the plug, the earth > breaks last. Easiest way to deal with that is to take off about 2.5" to 3" of outer insulation, put the wire on top of the cable clamp, then cut the wires back appropriately. To check if the lengths are correct -- put the wires into the screwpoints but don't tighten the screws. Pull on the wire and see what the "order of detachment" is. "Simples!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 7 17:08:50 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 23:08:50 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0D6DF2.80706@philpem.me.uk> On 05/06/10 13:08, Tony Duell wrote: > The HSE exists to _stop_ people doing their job. I don't have a problem with the HSE. I *do* have a problem with people who take health and safety regulations, then apply "reductio ad absurdum" to them, thus turning them into crazy confabulations of utter madness and despair. I do love the memos Head Office send us every now and again. "All photolab staff should be aware that when performing maintenance work which may involve contact with chemicals, PPE kit (gloves, apron and goggles) must be worn." Yeah, like I'm going to dip my bare hands into a full tank of RA4 developer. Little hint: that stuff has rather a lot of NaOH in it, not to mention the other nasty stuff. The fact that you can smell it half-way across the room and onto the shopfloor makes it quite clear that dipping your hands in would not be a great career move. Though someone must have done it, otherwise there wouldn't be a warning label for it... right? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 7 17:21:25 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 17:21:25 -0500 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0D6B70.2020203@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C0D6B70.2020203@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <201006072225.o57MPBkG046459@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 04:58 PM 6/7/2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >It's a bitch doing it with co-ax too. I usually end up using a retractable-blade Stanley knife to cut about half-way through the insulation, then bend/twist it around the cut mark and it breaks apart fairly easily. Then bend 180 degrees all four ways to make sure you haven't nicked any of the internal wires. Doesn't everyone have a cable stripper in their toolbox? Clips around the cable, spin, and only the insulation is cut or nicked enough to not damage the inner wires? - John From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 7 17:36:09 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 15:36:09 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> Keith wrote: > It terms of pure clock cycles per second, definitely. Most FPGA eval > boards (and his in particular) run around 50mhz(ie come with onboard > 50mhz oscillator). Off by nine orders of magnitude. They commonly use 50 MHz. > This is for clocking the synchronous design. So the flip flops are > driven by this clock. Most of these boards will accept upwards of > 100mhz. There are some internal-to-the-FPGA processes that can run > ~400mhz. The flip-flops may be driven by the external clock input, but often this is not the case. Almost all modern FPGAs contain either PLL or DLL blocks that can be used to synthesize other clock frequencies from the external input. On the FPGA eval boards with a 50 MHz oscillator, I routinely run the flip-flops of my designs at frequencies up to 200 MHz. > My limited understanding is that most commercial applications are less > than 250mhz because high speed designs are tough to troubleshoot. > Crosstalk, connectors, etc can all become big problems. It can be difficult to troubleshoot external interfaces at those speeds, but it is not uncommon to run internal logic at those speeds and external interfaces at lower speeds. Eric From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 7 17:39:35 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 23:39:35 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <201006072225.o57MPBkG046459@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C0D6B70.2020203@philpem.me.uk> <201006072225.o57MPBkG046459@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C0D7527.8040301@philpem.me.uk> On 07/06/10 23:21, John Foust wrote: > Doesn't everyone have a cable stripper in their toolbox? Clips around > the cable, spin, and only the insulation is cut or nicked enough > to not damage the inner wires? I've got one for Cat5 and one for RG* coax, but not one for UK mains cable. Plus I'm lazy.. and sometimes the Stanley knife does a better job. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jun 7 05:58:55 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 05:58:55 -0500 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <4C0C5C39.7060507@telus.net> References: <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> <20100606220522.GD14469@n0jcf.net> <4C0C5C39.7060507@telus.net> Message-ID: <20100607105855.GE14469@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (06/06/2010 at 07:40PM -0700), John Robertson wrote: > > Transformers are extremely simple beasts - they either work or they > don't. When they fail you really know it - they blow fuses and/or start > smoking with goop leaking out and making a general smelly mess or a > winding opens and you get no output at all. A transformer does NOT get > weak. I completely understand and I never believed it "got weak". I believe it has been defective from the beginning. Probably not a failure but a manufacturing defect or was just plain too small for the job. I am not the first person to find the 8V rail being low on a SWTPC 6800 system. > Have you tried the simplest bridge rectifier test of all - simply hook > your voltmeter to the outputs of the bridge and then using a single > diode of sufficient voltage and amperage you then jumper each internal > diode with the external one. If/when the voltage jumps up, then you have > proven the bridge rectifier is defective. Static tests (power off - > voltage drop across the bridge) doesn't catch bridges that fail under > load. Yup. I've done the even simpler test which is to replace the entire bridge. I have been using a dummy load to test the supply and in one of the tests I used the original transformer and filter cap but substituted a new bridge. Same inability to source 5A. I then also swapped the filter capacitor... same inability to source 5A. > Further to that - if you are not clear about what I mean by jumpering - > you take your external diode and bend the leads so you can place one > lead on an AC terminal and the other to either the '+' or '-' terminals > of the bridge. Taking EXTREME care to always have the banded end of the > external diode connecting to the more positive side of the bridge under > test!!! > > I hope that is clear enough to enable you to check your bridge > recitifier which I (and others here) believe is the actual problem, not > the transformer! An abundance of clearness. Thank you. I too have been doing this stuff for 35+ years so the actual tests, circuit modifications, etc are not a problem. My original question was seeking input on how much religion there is about making modifications to original equipment or not. I had pretty much already determined that the transformer was the problem. >> I completely agree... although, I am now prepared to replace the transformer >> so once I have desoldered the original I suspect I'll be putting back the >> new ones. >> >> > > Please don't do this until you have tested the bridge. If the bridge is > OK, then the next suspect is the primary filter capacitor for your 8VDC > system. Again, bridge it with a known to be good capacitor or similar or > less capacity and watch to see if the voltage goes up... Capacitor has been replaced with no improvement. The original transformer with a new bridge and new filter cap are unable to keep 6VDC on the DC side with 5A load. That's half the rating of the supply. > Switchers are great for protecting against power supply failures, > however some reset circuits assume linear supplies and don't work > reliably with switching supplies unless you modify them so the voltage > rails go up as the system expects. Understood. This system has a 555 timer that resets it sometime a few SECONDS after 5V goes valid. I think we'll be OK. > If you decide against switches get TRANSORPS for the critical voltage > lines to clamp the voltage (and blow fuses) if the linear supply voltage > rises due to failure. A good plan. Thank you. > PS - my experience is in servicing tube and solid state equipment since > the 1960s - since the mid 70s as a living (flippers.com ;-). Great. I appreciate the input but I think unfortunately, in the case of my SWTPC 6800, it does need a new transformer (or two). Chris -- Chris Elmquist From skin.flint at verizon.net Mon Jun 7 15:40:35 2010 From: skin.flint at verizon.net (Bob & Paula) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 16:40:35 -0400 Subject: Intel Above Board AT Message-ID: Is there any chance you can tell me what chip went in the above board plus 8 to make it compatible with an 8088xt? Thanks, Bob From root at parse.com Mon Jun 7 16:58:24 2010 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 17:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Updates to Straight 8 for Sale Message-ID: <201006072158.o57LwPhY030018@amd64.ott.parse.com> This week is the end of bidding on the straight 8 (PDP-8) at www.pdp12.org I have just (Monday night) added a whole bunch of new stuff to the bottom of the webpage, including filler panels, connector / cable assemblies, a DF-32 for parts, some magnetic media, and a ton of docs. Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 18:02:37 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:02:37 -0700 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100607105855.GE14469@n0jcf.net> References: <4C0A8ED8.8020301@axeside.co.uk> ,<20100606220522.GD14469@n0jcf.net> <4C0C5C39.7060507@telus.net>,<20100607105855.GE14469@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: > From: chrise at pobox.com ---snip--- > > My original question was seeking input on how much religion there is > about making modifications to original equipment or not. I had pretty > much already determined that the transformer was the problem. > ---snip--- Hi Chris One other thing may have happened over time, in the transformer. Many transformers were originally manufactured with 2 primary windings. This way, they could be easily configured for 220 or 110. In cases used for 110, the windings would be paralleled inside the case and then only one pair of wires run external. It is possible that from stress or corrosion that one of the wires has gone open. This would match the problem that you are seeing. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From ss at allegro.com Mon Jun 7 18:47:04 2010 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:47:04 -0700 Subject: Free: HP Integral (no power supply) in Cupertino, CA In-Reply-To: <4C553B67-B407-40A2-9CFF-A8E4BC9E0238@me.com> References: <4C553B67-B407-40A2-9CFF-A8E4BC9E0238@me.com> Message-ID: Spoken for. On Jun 5, 2010, at 2:42 PM, Stanley Sieler wrote: > Hi, > > If anyone would like a free HP Integral (missing a power supply), please > email me. It also has a 512 KB memory board. > ROM Module has HP-UX 5.0 > > Second expansion slot is empy. > > Has keyboard (and cable), internal printer, internal floppy. > > No mouse. > > Preference goes to anyone who can pick it up in Cupertino, CA. > Otherwise, cost of shipping Fed-Ex is needed. > > Stan > sieler at allegro.com From ss at allegro.com Mon Jun 7 18:49:11 2010 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:49:11 -0700 Subject: Free: HP Integral (no power supply) in Cupertino, CA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1AEB825A-A4FE-40E7-854C-DCF2BFD1BB31@allegro.com> Hi, >> email me. It also has a 512 KB memory board. >> ROM Module has HP-UX 5.0 > > I assume no ROM expansion board in the ROM module... > I didn't pull the board, just the cover and looked inside. > Just to clarify : What exactly is missing? THe PSU PCB, or the entire > lower chassis (PSU, HPIB connector, expanion backplane)? The PSU iteself > is a fairly normal SMPSU, although IIRC it does have one or two strange > output voltages for the printer and the display. Good question ... I don't know. Where the plug (male prongs) should be is a hole. If I look through the hole into the inside, I see nothing, just empty space. I'm leery of taking a working Integral apart to compare it to this one ... I've had trouble putting them back together in the past :) Stan From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jun 7 18:59:25 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 19:59:25 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> (sfid-20100606_070321_165851_38E651D1) Message-ID: <4C0D87DD.9040300@compsys.to> >Brad Parker wrote: >I already did that. It took a few years, but I only worked on it sporadically. It currently >boots (in simulation) RT-11, RSTS V4, BSD 2.9 and V6. I have not debugged the split I & D >but it's there. > >If you send me a RK05 image with TSX on it I'll try and boot it in sim. > >The last FPGA version I did had no MMU but it did boot RT-11. It had some disk problems which >I have since corrected. I believe I could synthesize and run the "no mmu" version pretty quickly. >The mmu version need still needs some work do make 50mhz timing. > > I am quite confident that TSX-Plus requires an MMU to run. If you can confirm, when I get to testing the TSX-Plus code, I can produce an RK05 image for you as well. >>(b) About how fast might the FPGA solution be compared to something like a PDP-11/93? >>Again, just a rough estimate like 10 or 20 times as fast. >> >Well, as I said, the no-mmu version runs at 50MHz. I could improve that. The mmu version probably >won't run faster, mostly due to the 20ns rams on my fpga board. > > Can you translate that in terms of the speed of a standard PDP-11? >>Any idea why you did an FPGA implementation of the PDP-8? >> >back in the day I spent a lot of time on TSS/8. I wanted to run it again :-) And, I want >to work on cpu's when I grow up. > >I also spent a lot of time on RSTS and TSX, hence the pdp-11. > >I know the s/w sims are better, but I like hardware and love running h/w simulations. > > I don't think they are better, just different. Since my addiction is to software, my enjoyment tends to be greater on a system which is faster so I don't have to wait very long to perform an assembly. When a trivial error requires 2 minutes or more to assemble the whole program, there is a tendency to wait until a more serious correction also needs fixing. If the assembly is only 2 seconds, just the editing takes longer. When you used RSTS/E, did you run only basic programs or did you also use the MACRO.SAV program? My question is about the lack of specific information when a .Chain EMT is used to transfer control to another program. The PPN value may be needed and there is some confusion as to if and how the .Chain EMT uses or even can use the PPN at location zero offset of the Common Area? Jerome Fine From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Jun 8 00:56:30 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 01:56:30 -0400 Subject: wanted Sun 4/6x0MP system board Message-ID: <4C0DDB8E.2050904@hawkmountain.net> Anyone have one.... I have one that let out the magic smoke.... I'd also love to find the memory expansion board for these. -- Curt From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 18:23:44 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: <20100607105530.G40849@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <162743.24635.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/7/10, Fred Cisin wrote: > What could be cooler than a green or amber screen'd Mac? > > > In mid 1980's somebody made an immitation of a Mac case for > use as a case > for XT's ! O man I have my ears plugged up at this moment. Can't hear a word you're saying sorry la la la la. I will be your friend once more if you find me a k/b for my Sony model 10 thingee - the only real Mac clone worth mentioning! And the prototype to boot!!! *** the preceding was unquestionably badd information, and you're hereby warned from repeating such on various internet forums *** From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jun 7 19:02:01 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:02:01 -0500 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <20100606155249.GY14469@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100608000201.GN14469@n0jcf.net> On Monday (06/07/2010 at 07:21PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > Ya... thanks guys. The transformer is rated at 7.25V @ 10A. But it's > > not even able to do 7.25V at 5A so I think it is the culprit. > > Does it have just a simple 2-terminal secondary winding, or is it > centre-tapped? What sort of rectifier are you using (bridge, 2 diode > biphase, etc)? The 8V supply uses a bridge in a chassis mount package. The +/- 12V supply uses a 24V CT secondary of the same transformer feeding a bridge built from discrete diodes on a PCB. Here's a picture of the whole shbang, http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_P/PowerSupply_Photo.jpg as well as all the docs for the (trivially simple) supply, SWTPC MP-P, http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_P/MP_P_Index.htm and Micheal Holley documents his modification to improve the supply here, http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/MP_P/M6809/Power_Supply_Mods.htm I have indentified two transformers that can be stacked in the same footprint as the single original so I will not have to drill new holes to mount the second transformer near the power distribution board nor will have I have to mount the power distribution board on its side as Micheal did. > Does the thransformer 'look big enough'? If it is 7.25V at 10A, that's > 72.5VA. Is the core comparable in size to other 72VA transformers? No, > this isnot an exact thing, but in general the size of a small transformer > core (small being less than a couple of kVA...) gives a good idea as to > its VA rating. It seems small to me but that's a very subjective measurement. > I am wondering just what sort of fault could cause this other than a > mislabelled transformer. I'd offer that it was an under designed supply and it could never really source the kind of current they claimed. The transformer has no markings on it so not possible to identify the manufacturer or actual specifications. The specs I am operating against are those in the SWTPC MP-P documentation, where the claim of 7.25V at 10A is made. > > I think I have converged on my solution. I have two new Triad > > transformers that when bolted to a piece of aluminum angle stock, > > suitably cut to size, will fit stacked in the same footprint as the > > original transformer. Therefore, I won't need to drill any new holes > > in the chassis, will have a "period" accurate modification and the thing > > should work as was originally intended. > > > > Sounds like a good modification. Totally reversable, and it keeps the > circuit design much the same. > > I just hope the problem is just the transformer... Well, there's only two other parts (a bridge and giant cap) to swap after that so I will get there pretty quickly if it's not the transformer ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jun 7 19:04:43 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 19:04:43 -0500 Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: References: <20100606220522.GD14469@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100608000443.GO14469@n0jcf.net> On Monday (06/07/2010 at 07:40PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > Yup. Have a wattmeter and can make this measurement... however only > > after desoldering all the connections from the transformer to the > > chassis mounted bridge and the bridge mounted on a PCB since none of > > this is connectorized. > > As you're considering replacing the transformer anyway, I think I would > disconnect the secondary leads and do the test just for fun. I like to > know exactly what's failed and how :-) You bet. Will report on what I find. > > I have another homebrew S100 machine from the same era and it too has > > a marginal power supply... but I won't think twice about rebuilding > > that one with a set of switchers. It has no pedigree or authentity to > > I probably wouldn't just because S100 boxen rarel used SMPSUs. But it's a > personal choice. True... but they also rarely used the horrendous kludge of a supply the thing has it now so I am not bothered by this sort of change for this particular machine. The end result is that the thing will be many, many pounds lighter ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jun 8 02:59:23 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 00:59:23 -0700 Subject: Dynalogic Hyperion MS-DOS disks Message-ID: I'm helping a local school district with a technology exhibit. They have a Dynalogic Hyperion, and are looking for the custom MS-DOS for it. Anyone who might be able to help is encouraged to contact me off-list. Thanks! ok bear From dave09 at dunfield.com Tue Jun 8 06:28:20 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 06:28:20 -0500 Subject: Dynalogic Hyperion MS-DOS disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I'm helping a local school district with a technology exhibit. They > have a Dynalogic Hyperion, and are looking for the custom MS-DOS for it. > > Anyone who might be able to help is encouraged to contact me off-list. > > Thanks! > > ok > bear I have images of the system disks for the Bytec/Dynalogic Hyperion posted to my site. I also have the Hyperion maintenance manual posted as well. Note: A very common problem with the Hyperion which affected both of the units that I have is that there is a rubber "bumper" that contacts the drive heads when they are unloaded - the rubber gets old and sticky causing the heads to stick to it so that they no longer load correctly. Most of the Hyperions I've looked at in recent years suffer from this problem. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From shumaker at att.net Tue Jun 8 09:18:22 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 10:18:22 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net> I'm considering disassembling a Model M keyboard to see if I can repair a key problem. Currently pressing either the "B" or the "V" keys give a two character string "BV", regardless of which key is pressed unless you hold it for a several seconds, at which point the actual key pressed starts repeating. I've never been inside a Model M before... Is there anyone on list with said experience that can offer pointers? or thoughts on the problem. Keyboard is a complete unknown although everything else *seems* to work... TIA! steve shumaker From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 09:21:19 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 10:21:19 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> On 6/7/2010 6:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > The flip-flops may be driven by the external clock input, but often this > is not the case. Almost all modern FPGAs contain either PLL or DLL > blocks that can be used to synthesize other clock frequencies from the > external input. Right. I've used Xilinx's DCMs before. They are pretty simple and provide a wide range of output frequencies. My eval board has a single SMA connector on it for high frequency connections. The forty free I/O pins use a hirose FX2 connector, not sure what the highest frequency is available there. I wouldn't think even to 100mhz? > On the FPGA eval boards with a 50 MHz oscillator, I > routinely run the flip-flops of my designs at frequencies up to 200 MHz. My real point to the original poster was that they don't run at ghz speeds. Or even close. Despite looking at the datasheet this morning, I have no idea what the maximum frequency of my Spartan-3E XC3S500E-4FG320C, speed grade -4 is. I've fed the coregen DDR controller at 100mhz before, but never used anything faster. Thanks for correcting me, I've still got a lot to learn. Keith From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jun 8 10:13:06 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 17:13:06 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> >> The flip-flops may be driven by the external clock input, but often this >> is not the case. Almost all modern FPGAs contain either PLL or DLL >> blocks that can be used to synthesize other clock frequencies from the >> external input. > > Right. I've used Xilinx's DCMs before. They are pretty simple and > provide a wide range of output frequencies. My eval board has a single > SMA connector on it for high frequency connections. The forty free I/O > pins use a hirose FX2 connector, not sure what the highest frequency is > available there. I wouldn't think even to 100mhz? Xilinx Spartan-3e board? Nice toy! A pdp8 fits several times... >> On the FPGA eval boards with a 50 MHz oscillator, I >> routinely run the flip-flops of my designs at frequencies up to 200 MHz. > > My real point to the original poster was that they don't run at ghz > speeds. Or even close. 200MHz is quite fast - at least on a Spartan-3... Or you have a very very simple design. Could look different on a newer Virtex device. > Despite looking at the datasheet this morning, I have no idea what the > maximum frequency of my Spartan-3E XC3S500E-4FG320C, speed grade -4 is. > I've fed the coregen DDR controller at 100mhz before, but never used > anything faster. I assume that you could reach about 150 MHz with very good design or very limited functionality. I have not yet fully understood the timing constraints you pass to the Xilinx tools. It could speed things up if you exclude some unimportant paths like wires going to LEDs on a pdp8 implementation. I assume that IO cells in timing paths add a lot bigger delay than simple logic... From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jun 8 11:28:21 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:28:21 +0200 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net> References: <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net> Message-ID: <4C0E6FA5.2060407@hachti.de> steve shumaker wrote: > I'm considering disassembling a Model M keyboard to see if I can repair > a key problem. Currently pressing either the "B" or the "V" keys give a > two character string "BV", regardless of which key is pressed unless you > hold it for a several seconds, at which point the actual key pressed > starts repeating. > > I've never been inside a Model M before... Is there anyone on list with > said experience that can offer pointers? or thoughts on the problem. > Keyboard is a complete unknown although everything else *seems* to work... What about a new one? I could help... Problem is shipping costs... - Philipp From jzg22 at drexel.edu Tue Jun 8 13:03:43 2010 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 14:03:43 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M2 keyboard error codes (LEDS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0E85FF.8010005@drexel.edu> I have an IBM model M2 here which when plugged in, the Num lock and scroll lock leds go on, and the keyboard refuses to do anything. I notice that SOMETIMES the Model M I have here does the same thing (num+scroll on, no response) for a few seconds, and I'm GUESSING it might be something like the 5v line can't supply enough current to run it properly at startup, but it usually starts working after about 3 or 4 seconds; the M2 does not. Any idea what causes this, or whether it is fixable? Jonathan Gevaryahu jzg22 at drexel.edu From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 8 12:44:53 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:44:53 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? References: <4C0D6B70.2020203@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <007201cb0737$3c96c2a0$b20c5b0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 10:58 PM Subject: Re: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? > On 07/06/10 21:07, Tony Duell wrote: > > You were actually taught something useful at school? I am amazed... > > Me too. We never got taught anything like that in science or physics (or > any class for that matter). Though a few of the PTA members and a > certain headteacher were very vocal about their dislike of "dangerous" > subjects... > urgh, "science" was the same few things every year for five years for me (autumn 1990-summer 1996) - human reproductive organs, plants reproduction, basic physics and thats it. We did do a little electrical work (series vs. parallel), but I guess H&S put an end to the practical side. > > Hmm.. Actualyl stripping the cable tends to be the hardest part ot do > > right. It's very easy to 'nick' the insulation on the inner wires when > > cutting off the outer sheath. > > It's a bitch doing it with co-ax too. I usually end up using a > retractable-blade Stanley knife to cut about half-way through the > insulation, then bend/twist it around the cut mark and it breaks apart > fairly easily. Then bend 180 degrees all four ways to make sure you > haven't nicked any of the internal wires. > > > The next trick you'd miss if you have pre-stripped cable is the correct > > length of the wires. The earth wire shold hace the most slack, so if the > > cable clamp fials and the cable is pulled out of the plug, the earth > > breaks last. > > Easiest way to deal with that is to take off about 2.5" to 3" of outer > insulation, put the wire on top of the cable clamp, then cut the wires > back appropriately. > > To check if the lengths are correct -- put the wires into the > screwpoints but don't tighten the screws. Pull on the wire and see what > the "order of detachment" is. > > "Simples!" > No meerkats on here please! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From trag at io.com Tue Jun 8 13:40:32 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 13:40:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8648fa3160cb386cbd0b6cf27eb1c494.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:36:51 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> On 03/06/10 19:28, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh >> > electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the >> fluorescent >> > tube when it fails? >> >> Profit. >> >> The Engineer Says: "I just made a lightbulb that lasts a million hours!" >> The MBA Says: "NO! Don't tell ANYONE about it. It'll kill the sales of >> our existing two-thousand-hour-lifetime products!" >> >> The Engineer Says: "What if we split the tube from the ballast? Then if >> one fails, the customer can keep the other, working bit?" >> The MBA Says: "People don't want to buy two separate parts. Also it's >> more profitable if they have to swap the whole thing." > > Is it me, or is most of the 'green' movement one big con? It's not just you. The greenie movement is a religion, not a sensible movement attempting to solve problems in rational ways. If they were the latter, they would have been advocating nuclear power as soon as reducing CO2 became a fad. CO2 emissions have been a concern since the late 70s if not earlier, but that didn't stop the greenies from lying about nuclear power at every opportunity and essentially forcing the increased use of coal. If the USA had built 10 new nuclear electricity generating plants a year since 1980, our CO2 emissions would be 28% lower now, not to mention the accumulated reduction in emissions over the last thirty years. Arguably, the greenies caused global warming.... Jeff Walther From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 13:31:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 19:31:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0D63A8.4040305@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 7, 10 10:24:56 pm Message-ID: > Although in a few cases the article makes it fairly easy to figure out > what the project needs to do. The 1974 thru ~1986 era is There were microprocessor (and even microcontroller) projects hack then. At least computers based round the SCMP, 6502 (Junior Computer), 2650 (TV Games Computer). > all-transistor-and-TTL (with few exceptions), whereas the 1990-1999 era > is mostly microcontroller systems with little TTL. > > Very odd for them to publish the 1990-1999 PDFs in preference to (say) > 1974-1984 -- nearly all the transistors used in those circuits were > "TUN" or "TUP"s; that is, Transistor, Universal, NPN or PNP > respectively. Diodes similarly were "DUG" or "DUS" -- Diode, Universal, > Germanium or Silicon. TTL is similarly easily available, any electronics > hobbyist worth his salt will know that 74LS can usually be subbed in for > straight-74xx TTL. Indeed. And somehow I find projects using a handful of simple components to be more appealing than just a single 40 pin microcontroller. > > I stopped reading AP when the editor changed some years ago. Roger Hicks > > no longer wrote an article every week, it almost totally dropped film > > photography, and the answers to readers questions were misleading to say > > the least (I seem to remember them perpetrating ythe myth that the focal > > lenght of the lens affrcts perspective). Oh, and the 'classic camera' > > articles became only 2 pages long., although even before that they were > > somewhat lacking in accuracy. > > It's both amusing and saddening to see them publish an answer to > someone's query one week, then publish a retraction-and-correction the I rememebr them saying it was better to store recharageble batteries in the discharged state (since they then couldn't self-discharge). There my be a battery technology where that's true, but most of the common ones are better stored charged. > following week. Things like suggesting RAID arrays as an alternative to > offline backups (CD-R, DVD-R, tape, ...) > Little hint -- what happens if there's a power spike? Second little hint : None of my cameras has a hard disk, or a CD-ROM drive, or... > > > What I do read is : > > > > Model Engineer, and Model Engineer's Workshop (the latter is more > > interesting to me, being more on workshop techniques, the former being > > mostly about making steam engines, but you do get useful information from > > it, which is why I read it). > > I'd really like to learn how to do some more advanced > plastic/metalworking (and get the tools to do it). It is great fun. The problem is the startup cost. A good lathe is not cheap, but then again it will last all your life if you look after it. > At high school we had a fair few wood/metalworking tools (most of which > were in pretty good nick), a teacher who knew his stuff (IIRC he used to > work for a metalworking company, retired, then started working as a > teacher). We also had a headteacher who was the sort of person who'd > make the kids run around in plastic bubbles for "health and safety" > reasons. Design-tech and science got cut almost entirely (the latter had > all the experiments and demonstrations cut and was turned into a lecture > / question-and-answer / exam session)... Do the world a favour, and put that headmaster between centres :-). A light skimming cut should do the job... Fortunately I managed to get away with all sorts of lethal things at school. As I mentioned once before, when the rest of the kids were booting spheres around areas of grass, I was making a CRT in a bell jar. Or fooling around with valves. Or... I learnt nothing at school that I was _supposed_ to be learning, though. Certianly not from the so-called teachers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 13:34:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 19:34:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0D6B70.2020203@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 7, 10 10:58:08 pm Message-ID: > It's a bitch doing it with co-ax too. I usually end up using a > retractable-blade Stanley knife to cut about half-way through the > insulation, then bend/twist it around the cut mark and it breaks apart > fairly easily. Then bend 180 degrees all four ways to make sure you > haven't nicked any of the internal wires. Coax isn't too hard, since the braid is hard enouugh to feel different if oyu touch it with the knife blade. Some the thinner audio cables with a simple screen are a lot harder. The words are unscreeend multicore cables, with lots of thin internal wires. Vey easy to nick at least one. > > > The next trick you'd miss if you have pre-stripped cable is the correct > > length of the wires. The earth wire shold hace the most slack, so if the > > cable clamp fials and the cable is pulled out of the plug, the earth > > breaks last. > > Easiest way to deal with that is to take off about 2.5" to 3" of outer > insulation, put the wire on top of the cable clamp, then cut the wires > back appropriately. With a bit of practice, you can clamp the cable in the cable clamp, then run the wires to the pins, estimate the slack yoiu need and cut/strip appropriately. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 13:14:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 19:14:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0D5984.8080005@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Jun 7, 10 09:41:40 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Reminds me of when we where learning to wire plugs in Physics when I was > > > > You were actually taught something useful at school? I am amazed... > > > >> at school (about 14/15). We where given about a foot of cable, stripped > >> at both ends and a standard 3 pin plug and screwdriver. We pretty much > > > > Hmm.. Actualyl stripping the cable tends to be the hardest part ot do > > right. It's very easy to 'nick' the insulation on the inner wires when > > cutting off the outer sheath. > > Though I usually cut from the end down, and try to insert my blade in > between where the inter cables are, then peel back and cut round with > the wire cutters. Sure. It';s not hard to do once you've done it a few times (although some non-screened multicore cables (not used for mains) are painful), bnut it's something you need to learn how to do, and IMHO should have been part of the lesson. After all, wiring a mains plug is not exactly difficult if you've done it a few times. > > Andf I wasn't joking when I said he was the class brain, constantly came > top in class tests, he just I guess did this on auto-pilot, or was > distracted and made an ummm error of judgement :) No, I think it just illustrates that performance in exams and performance in the real world are not the same thing at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 13:10:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 19:10:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Authenticity opinions In-Reply-To: <20100607105855.GE14469@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 7, 10 05:58:55 am Message-ID: > > Transformers are extremely simple beasts - they either work or they > > don't. When they fail you really know it - they blow fuses and/or start > > smoking with goop leaking out and making a general smelly mess or a > > winding opens and you get no output at all. A transformer does NOT get > > weak. > > I completely understand and I never believed it "got weak". I believe > it has been defective from the beginning. Probably not a failure but > a manufacturing defect or was just plain too small for the job. Do you even know that it was the right transformer? From what you said elsewhere, you got the specs from the SWTPC scheamitcs, not from markings on the transofrmer itself. Somebody might have used the wrong part (or tried to save money, or...) > > Switchers are great for protecting against power supply failures, > > however some reset circuits assume linear supplies and don't work > > reliably with switching supplies unless you modify them so the voltage > > rails go up as the system expects. > > Understood. This system has a 555 timer that resets it sometime a few > SECONDS after 5V goes valid. I think we'll be OK. Not always. Some ICs -- the 4116 is the best known example, can do strange things (including latching up, then drawing excessive supply current and destroying themselves) if the supply lines come up in the wrong order. This has nothing to do with the system reset line. IIRC the 4116 needs the -5V bias supply applied before the +12V supply. > > > If you decide against switches get TRANSORPS for the critical voltage > > lines to clamp the voltage (and blow fuses) if the linear supply voltage > > rises due to failure. > > A good plan. Thank you. Or make a crowbar circuit. It's just a zener diode, a couple of resisotrs and an SCR. Actually, I am suprised nobody sells crowbar 'ICs' -- 2 terminal components that contain that circuiit. Not the same a sa Transorb, becuase once a crowbar has triggered, it stays effectively shorted until the current through it drops to a low value (it is an SCR after all). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 13:47:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 19:47:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free: HP Integral (no power supply) in Cupertino, CA In-Reply-To: <1AEB825A-A4FE-40E7-854C-DCF2BFD1BB31@allegro.com> from "Stan Sieler" at Jun 7, 10 04:49:11 pm Message-ID: > > Just to clarify : What exactly is missing? THe PSU PCB, or the entire=20= > > > lower chassis (PSU, HPIB connector, expanion backplane)? The PSU = > iteself=20 > > is a fairly normal SMPSU, although IIRC it does have one or two = > strange=20 > > output voltages for the printer and the display. > > Good question ... I don't know. Where the plug (male prongs) should be = > is a hole. But the HPIB connecotr and the expansion slot connecotrs are present? What does the power switch on the front feel like? Any 'click'? Ihe Inbtegral PSU is a single PCB that mounts in the bottom chassis. The power switch is soldered on this PCB, the IEC mains input plug is part of a filter unit that's fixed ot the back panel of the lower chassis and is conencted ot the PCB by a couple of wires and faston terminals. > If I look through the hole into the inside, I see nothing, just empty = > space. But I think you wouild see the PCB and components through the hole. Sounds like the entire PSU is missing. > > I'm leery of taking a working Integral apart to compare it to this one = > ... > I've had trouble putting them back together in the past :) YEs, the are a bit of a fiddle. The service manual is on bitsavers, but I find it's easier to take it apart in the following way : Open the top, repmveo keyboard, anything stored next to the printer (mouse, etc), ink cartrridge (naughty -- do not leave that in the machine). Remove the expansion PCBs or slot covers. Remove the rear panel, take out the ROM module, take off the rear screening plate Disconnect the 2 cables form the floppy drive. Take out the 3 screws (2 in the well next to the printer, on at the bottom, going into the bottom chassis) that hold the drive in place and slide it out. Recover the eject button and spring Remove the screws hodling the logic chassis in place (2 of them are hex spacers). Easy it up and unplug the cable form the back of the display. Unplug the cables at the bottom edge of the PCBs. Ease it out further, remove the screen from the Logic B (front logic) PCB, then disconenct all the cables to the THinkjet mechanism. Tale out the logic assembly. The rear PCB (Logic A) contains the CPU, memory management, ROM socket, RAM and HP-HIL circuits. The front PCB (Logic B) contains the rest of the I/O -- HPIB, floppy controlelr, display controller, HPIL/Thinkjet interface, sound generator, real time clock. Undo the nut visible through the expansion conenctor PCB. This is a right pain to get back, but it has to come off. Take out the 4 screws and slide out the bottom chassis. Undo all the nuts and screws holding the cover on the bottom chassis (notice the empty screwhole, it takes a scre that holds the floppy drive bracket in place). Ease off the cover, it helps to remove the jackposts fro mthe HPIN copnenctor and recover the bracket and connector parts from inside the chassis. You can now see the PSU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 13:22:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 19:22:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0D5A64.8090808@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 7, 10 09:45:24 pm Message-ID: > > On 05/06/10 10:55, Tony Duell wrote: > > Argh!. I can remember when Maplin sold some reasonable-quality tools. > > Like 'Elora' spanners (They did a few very small sizes that were very > > difficult to find). And Weller soldering irons (I bought at least one b= > it > > for my TCP from them). Not any more :-(. > > They used to stock the Antex 660TC soldering station. I got one as=20 > "discontinued stock" a while ago for a good bit less than the RRP. That=20 When i was in Bristol, every year the Maplin shop sold off the kits/PCBs/components that were being disocontinued and no longer listed in the catalouge. I got a lot of bags of interesting mixed ICs that way, a number of interesting kits, and other bits. It's why I have 3 or 4 bare PCBs for the Maplin Modem in the spares box, for example... > > And they don't sell tin/lead solder any more. > > But Farnell still do :) Sure (and I think RS do too). It's not difficult to get, I was simply pointing out that Maplin don't sell it. Since they generally sell to the hobbyist market (who AFAIK are allowed to use whatever solder they want), I find this somewhat strange... > The Multicore stuff is fiercely expensive, but the stuff they stock as=20 > "Multicomp" (i.e. "whatever was cheapest at the time") is pretty decent.=20 > At one point the Multicomp stuff was badge-engineered Multicore "562"=20 > 60/40 SnPb or something very close to it. I've had problems with 'Multicomp' components from Farnell. Not the solder (I've never tried it), but I've had some very poor connectors. I eneded up replacing them with genuine 3M ones at 6 times the price (if I'd spotted Farnell also listed those I would never have bought the Multicomp ones...). My sanity in only having to trace genuine faults in my HP Multiprogrammer system ius worth something... > > >> * PC power supply. Blew up and took an expensive motherboard and CPU=3D= > 20 > >> with it. Even put a PSU tester on it, which showed the +12 rail at=3D2= > 0 > >> almost 20V! -- "We'll replace the power supply but you'll have to RMA=3D= > 20 > > > > That's an odd fault... With many SMPSUs the 'extra' outputs will be low > > if the main output is not sufficiently loaded, but having such ouptus g= > o > > (very) high is uncommon. I wonder what the fault was. > > I suspect a short in the transformer. Whatever it was, it made a loud=20 > bang and dumped a lot of Magic Smoke... A shorted turn in an SMPSU chopepr transformer will always blow the chopper transistor (and other bits in the PSU), it doesn't normally make the oputputs go high, > > Incidentally, my common comment 'Check the PSU on dummy load' applies t= > o > > brand new PSUs too :-). > > "Dummy load / PSU tester" is right on the top of my "stuff to build" list= > :) > > I just have to figure out how to do the "constant power" regulation. I=20 You don't need to go that far. Filamanet lamps (!) of suitable rating are enough. > want to go with opamps for the regulation (faster response time to V/I=20 > transients) and a D/A to set the current/voltage/power 'setpoint'. Why do yuo want to overcomplicate everything. Sounds like some of the magazine projects that have to use a microcontroller when there are much simpler ways of doing it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 13:55:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 19:55:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net> from "steve shumaker" at Jun 8, 10 10:18:22 am Message-ID: > > I'm considering disassembling a Model M keyboard to see if I can repair > a key problem. Currently pressing either the "B" or the "V" keys give a > two character string "BV", regardless of which key is pressed unless you > hold it for a several seconds, at which point the actual key pressed > starts repeating. > > I've never been inside a Model M before... Is there anyone on list with > said experience that can offer pointers? or thoughts on the problem. > Keyboard is a complete unknown although everything else *seems* to work... Well, the case come off easily (but you need a set of imperial nutdrivers), the enocoder PCB, etc, comes off as do the keycaps but the key mechanism is heat-staked together. Assuming it's like the one I repaieed some years ago (and which I have to strip down again sometime), it goes like this : ---------------- My IBM PC/AT enhanced keyboard failed recently -- it would send random characters, go in and out of shift mode, etc. When I dismantled it, I found the problem was mechanical -- the plastic studs holding the membrane 'sandwich' together were broken and the little flaps under some of the keys were out of position. So I worked out how to fix it. Remove the casing : 1) Unplug the keyboard cable at the back of the keyboard 2) Undo the 4 self-tapping screws (7/32" nutdriver) 3) Lift off the top half of the case 4) Lift the keyboard and encoder PCB from the lower case Remove the encoder board : 1) Unplug the tapewire (4 way) between the LED PCB and the encoder and both ends. Set it aside 2) Unplug the 2 keyboard tails from the encoder board 3) Remove the earth braid from the faston tab on the encoder board. Set the encoder board aside. 4) Undo the nut and bolt holding the earth braid from the keyboard backplate. Set those parts aside also. Remove the keycaps. These just pull off, but note that most of the keycaps are in 2 parts. Remove both parts together. Note how the wire loops under some of the larger keycaps (and the space bar) are fitted. Dismantle the membrane keyswitch sandwich : 1) Turn it over, so the metal backplate is uppermost. There are a number of plastic studs that come through the backplate and and melted over to hold the assembly together. Some of these are covered by a paper label, which should now be removed. 2) Break off the plastic studs. In many cases, some of these will be broken off anyway. The aim is to free the backplate entirely. 3) Lift off the metal backplate. If it is distorted (it should be a smooth curve), straighten it 4) Lift off the keyboard layers. In order these are : Lower membrane layer with conductive traces, separator (with holes), upper membrane layer with conductive traces and the LED PCB and a rubber sheet. Keep these carefully in order. 5) Remove the keyboard flaps and springs. Note which holes do not have a flap. 6) Press out the guides that are fitted for some of the wider keycaps. Modifying the upper keyboard panel : 1) Cut/file away the remains of the plastic studs from the keyboard panel. 2) Mark the centre of each stud (apart from those at the very bottom edge, which can be ignored) with a scriber. 3) Clamp the keyboard panel, upside down, to the bench. It can be flattened out by the clamps to simplyfy drilling. Drill each of the marked stud positions with a pilot hole of 1.5mm and enlarge them to 2mm. 4) Tap these holes at M2.5*0.45mm. This is best done from the top side of the keyboard panel. 5) Screw an M2.5*10mm screw into each of the new holes. You'll need about 50 screws. At the far right edge there are 3 holes near the clips for the loops on the '+' and 'enter' keys. The middle hole can't be used, and it is necessary to file down the heads of the screws in the other 2 holes to allow the loops to fit properly. 6) Check the metal backplate can be fitted over the screws. Ease any tight holes with a needle file. Reassembly : 1) Support the keyboard panel upside down over a box. Ensure that all the key posts are clear 2) Insert the flaps, leaving the holes you noted earlier empty. 3) Fit the rubber sheet and the 3 layers of keyboard membrane in the right order over the screws 4) Fit the backplate over the screws 5) Fit a M2.5 washer and nut onto each of the screws. Tighten them evenly, starting in the centre, and then the corners. Then tighten the remaining nuts. 6) Reassemble the guides, keycaps, encoder board and case in the reverse order. The keyboard should now work. Mine does -- I typed this on it. ----------------------- My guess is that you have a similar problem. Broken heatstakes and the flaps for 'B' and 'V' have got dislodged. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 8 14:10:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 13:10:08 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4014's found - and IBM 523 -heads up. - here's where In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 06 Jun 2010 15:56:30 -0400. Message-ID: The Tektronix 4014's were sold last Saturday. Damn! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 14:09:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 20:09:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <007201cb0737$3c96c2a0$b20c5b0a@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Jun 8, 10 06:44:53 pm Message-ID: > urgh, "science" was the same few things every year for five years for me > (autumn 1990-summer 1996) - human reproductive organs, plants reproduction, > basic physics and thats it. We did do a little electrical work (series vs. > parallel), but I guess H&S put an end to the practical side. ... Particulalry when it came to human reproduction (wy is part of 'The Meaning of Life' going through my mind right now..) More seriously, eliminating practical scince -- interesting practical science, is exactly the part of H&S that I object to. I was fortunate in that I did get to mess around with things that could have been dangerous if misused -- HV power supplies, the mains, evacuated galls vessels, sharp tools, etc and never had a serious injury. Mainly because I thought about what I was doing and took some care. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 14:13:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 20:13:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM Model M2 keyboard error codes (LEDS) In-Reply-To: <4C0E85FF.8010005@drexel.edu> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at Jun 8, 10 02:03:43 pm Message-ID: > > I have an IBM model M2 here which when plugged in, the Num lock and Plugged in to _what_? Is it possible that the host machine is sending some command to the keyboard that it doesn't recognise? > scroll lock leds go on, and the keyboard refuses to do anything. I > notice that SOMETIMES the Model M I have here does the same thing > (num+scroll on, no response) for a few seconds, and I'm GUESSING it > might be something like the 5v line can't supply enough current to run > it properly at startup, but it usually starts working after about 3 or 4 > seconds; the M2 does not. Have you checked the 5V line in the keyboard? The keyboard contains a microcotroller (8048 IIRC) which is reset by an RC network in the keybaord, it doesn't sue the system reset line. i suppose if the 5V line was risingtoo slowly, then the microcontroller may not initialise properly. > > Any idea what causes this, or whether it is fixable? Not off the top of my head. I think you need to do some more measurements... -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jun 8 14:21:04 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:21:04 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0D87DD.9040300@compsys.to> (sfid-20100607_200036_297098_DD8D6E8F) References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> (sfid-20100606_070321_165851_38E651D1) <4C0D87DD.9040300@compsys.to> (sfid-20100607_200036_297098_DD8D6E8F) Message-ID: <1CE992C3-BB13-433C-AE44-46D2B853C0C0@heeltoe.com> On Jun 7, 2010, at 7:59 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Brad Parker wrote: >> > I am quite confident that TSX-Plus requires an MMU to run. If you can confirm, > when I get to testing the TSX-Plus code, I can produce an RK05 image for you > as well. The current design has an mmu. I has all the guts for a full I&D 11/44 style mmu. I didn't go to the limit and add all of the 11/70 features, but may some day. It's currently configured as a 11/34 style mmu with no split I &D, using defines. >> Well, as I said, the no-mmu version runs at 50MHz. I could improve that. The mmu version probably >> won't run faster, mostly due to the 20ns rams on my fpga board. >> > Can you translate that in terms of the speed of a standard PDP-11? Well, the basic clock is 50Mhz, which is 20ns. Each instruction takes a minimum of 3 clocks. The most complex take about 20 clocks. So on average I think it's about 5 clocks/instruction. My last stab said about 10MIPS. So, I think it will beat a 11/44, but won't compare with simh on a modern pc. The disk controller makes an IDE disk look like a single RK05 drive. You can just copy a simh rk05 image onto any ide disk and go. > When you used RSTS/E, did you run only basic programs or > did you also use the MACRO.SAV program? I used basic+, as well as Whitesmith's C under RT-11. Most of the TSX-11 work I did was in Pascal, with a little bit of macro driver work. I also did a lot of fortran on a a standalone 11/23 in a geology lab using RT-11. I wrote a great spacewar clone in fortran which used a scope with z-control :-) brought all the grad student's progress to a complete halt, which didn't make me popular with the dept. head. I'm afraid I can't help with .Chain semantics. -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Jun 8 15:08:19 2010 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 13:08:19 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> On 6/8/2010 8:13 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >>> The flip-flops may be driven by the external clock input, but often >>> this >>> is not the case. Almost all modern FPGAs contain either PLL or DLL >>> blocks that can be used to synthesize other clock frequencies from the >>> external input. >> >> Right. I've used Xilinx's DCMs before. They are pretty simple and >> provide a wide range of output frequencies. My eval board has a >> single SMA connector on it for high frequency connections. The forty >> free I/O pins use a hirose FX2 connector, not sure what the highest >> frequency is available there. I wouldn't think even to 100mhz? > Xilinx Spartan-3e board? Nice toy! A pdp8 fits several times... Currently my PDP-8e compatible design on an Altera CycloneII EP2C20 takes about 9% of the total available resources (using internal block ram for the first 4Kx12 memory; pages 1-7 use the external on-board SRAM). So there is lots of logic left to implement peripherals. I have the RX8e/RX01 controller passing the DIRXA diagnostic now, and am in the processing of implementing the backing store on the SD card, so hopefully in the next few weeks I'll get to boot an OS8 image from a floppy image. >> Despite looking at the datasheet this morning, I have no idea what >> the maximum frequency of my Spartan-3E XC3S500E-4FG320C, speed grade >> -4 is. I've fed the coregen DDR controller at 100mhz before, but >> never used anything faster. > I assume that you could reach about 150 MHz with very good design or > very limited functionality. I have not yet fully understood the timing > constraints you pass to the Xilinx tools. It could speed things up if > you exclude some unimportant paths like wires going to LEDs on a pdp8 > implementation. I assume that IO cells in timing paths add a lot > bigger delay than simple logic... My PDP8e design runs at a basic 145MHz clock tick (this is a 4Kx12 config only, no external SRAM), and there are four clock ticks per instruction state (thus about 27.5ns for a major state duration). However, to get the memory expanded to the full 32Kx12, I use the 10ns external SRAM, and slow the clock down to 80MHz (12.5ns) per tick. SIMH still runs quite a bit faster, however (by 2X or more). For the PDP8 architecture, SIMH on a fast CPU will probably always be faster than a 'simple' FPGA state machine emulation of the architecture. To make the inherently slower FPGA be able to outspeed a much faster CPU, one would have to go to a much more parallel implementation (ie, a pipelined/superscalar PDP8 design) that is able to make up for the lack of raw FPGA lock speed. Such a PDP8 design is probably going to be very difficult, as the nature of the PDP-8 architecture is not very amenable to either pipelining or superscalar execution. It would certainly be a 'fun' project to consider, but my suspicion is that after implementation one would find so many bubbles/wait states get inserted into the pipe to make the instructions execute correctly there would not be much speed advantage gained. It would certainly be an interesting design study, however. Don PS: BTW for those ever considering implementing an RX floppy interface for the PDP8 and want to run diagnostics, I did find a coding error in the DIRXA (both rev C and D) diagnostics. In one specific test the XDR IOT is being issued before checking for transfer request via the XTR IOT. There is a simple patch to the diagnostic to fix it. Turns out it runs OK on real hardware because the speed difference of a real PDP8e vs a real RX01/2 controller, but if you speed up the RX controller past a certain point the test will always fail. From trag at io.com Tue Jun 8 15:08:35 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:08:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: old Sun SCSI chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2bf6198df7c048ea6f57d6d1ff532c28.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:41:00 -0400 > From: "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." > Subject: old Sun SCSI chips > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4C09B93C.1090201 at hawkmountain.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > I'm trying to nail down the differences between FAS101 and 53C96 SCSI > chips > used in Sun systems/boards. > > I believe the 53C96 is 5MB/sec SCSI and the FAS101 if 10MB/sec. > > (I found specs for Macs with the 53c96 that say 5MB/sec which is where > I got that # from). A Sun infodoc article lumps up the FAS101 and MACIO, > doesn't indicate the speed of the FAS101, but indicates the MACIO is > 10MB/sec. Yes, the 53C96 supported *unenhanced* SCSI 2 operations, meaning 5 MB/s maximum theoretical transfer speed. If you wanted *Fast* SCSI-2 (10 MB/s) you needed the 53CF96. I do not know anything about the FAS101. Jeff Walther From shumaker at att.net Tue Jun 8 15:09:10 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 16:09:10 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0EA366.3060608@att.net> thanks! will give it a try. steve Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm considering disassembling a Model M keyboard to see if I can repair >> a key problem. Currently pressing either the "B" or the "V" keys give a >> two character string "BV", regardless of which key is pressed unless you >> hold it for a several seconds, at which point the actual key pressed >> starts repeating. >> >> I've never been inside a Model M before... Is there anyone on list with >> said experience that can offer pointers? or thoughts on the problem. >> Keyboard is a complete unknown although everything else *seems* to work... >> > > Well, the case come off easily (but you need a set of imperial > nutdrivers), the enocoder PCB, etc, comes off as do the keycaps but the > key mechanism is heat-staked together. Assuming it's like the one I > repaieed some years ago (and which I have to strip down again sometime), > it goes like this : > > ---------------- > My IBM PC/AT enhanced keyboard failed recently -- it would send random > characters, go in and out of shift mode, etc. When I dismantled it, I > found the problem was mechanical -- the plastic studs holding the > membrane 'sandwich' together were broken and the little flaps under some > of the keys were out of position. So I worked out how to fix it. > > Remove the casing : > 1) Unplug the keyboard cable at the back of the keyboard > 2) Undo the 4 self-tapping screws (7/32" nutdriver) > 3) Lift off the top half of the case > 4) Lift the keyboard and encoder PCB from the lower case > > Remove the encoder board : > 1) Unplug the tapewire (4 way) between the LED PCB and the encoder and > both ends. Set it aside > 2) Unplug the 2 keyboard tails from the encoder board > 3) Remove the earth braid from the faston tab on the encoder board. Set > the encoder board aside. > 4) Undo the nut and bolt holding the earth braid from the keyboard > backplate. Set those parts aside also. > > Remove the keycaps. These just pull off, but note that most of the > keycaps are in 2 parts. Remove both parts together. Note how the wire > loops under some of the larger keycaps (and the space bar) are fitted. > > Dismantle the membrane keyswitch sandwich : > 1) Turn it over, so the metal backplate is uppermost. There are a number > of plastic studs that come through the backplate and and melted over to > hold the assembly together. Some of these are covered by a paper label, > which should now be removed. > 2) Break off the plastic studs. In many cases, some of these will be > broken off anyway. The aim is to free the backplate entirely. > 3) Lift off the metal backplate. If it is distorted (it should be a > smooth curve), straighten it > 4) Lift off the keyboard layers. In order these are : Lower membrane > layer with conductive traces, separator (with holes), upper membrane > layer with conductive traces and the LED PCB and a rubber sheet. Keep > these carefully in order. > 5) Remove the keyboard flaps and springs. Note which holes do not have a > flap. > 6) Press out the guides that are fitted for some of the wider keycaps. > > Modifying the upper keyboard panel : > 1) Cut/file away the remains of the plastic studs from the keyboard > panel. > 2) Mark the centre of each stud (apart from those at the very bottom > edge, which can be ignored) with a scriber. > 3) Clamp the keyboard panel, upside down, to the bench. It can be > flattened out by the clamps to simplyfy drilling. Drill each of the > marked stud positions with a pilot hole of 1.5mm and enlarge them to 2mm. > 4) Tap these holes at M2.5*0.45mm. This is best done from the top side of > the keyboard panel. > 5) Screw an M2.5*10mm screw into each of the new holes. You'll need about > 50 screws. At the far right edge there are 3 holes near the clips for the > loops on the '+' and 'enter' keys. The middle hole can't be used, and it > is necessary to file down the heads of the screws in the other 2 holes to > allow the loops to fit properly. > 6) Check the metal backplate can be fitted over the screws. Ease any > tight holes with a needle file. > > Reassembly : > 1) Support the keyboard panel upside down over a box. Ensure that all the > key posts are clear > 2) Insert the flaps, leaving the holes you noted earlier empty. > 3) Fit the rubber sheet and the 3 layers of keyboard membrane in the > right order over the screws > 4) Fit the backplate over the screws > 5) Fit a M2.5 washer and nut onto each of the screws. Tighten them > evenly, starting in the centre, and then the corners. Then tighten the > remaining nuts. > 6) Reassemble the guides, keycaps, encoder board and case in the reverse > order. > > The keyboard should now work. Mine does -- I typed this on it. > > ----------------------- > > My guess is that you have a similar problem. Broken heatstakes and the > flaps for 'B' and 'V' have got dislodged. > > -tony > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 8 15:15:39 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 21:15:39 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <007201cb0737$3c96c2a0$b20c5b0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4C0D6B70.2020203@philpem.me.uk> <007201cb0737$3c96c2a0$b20c5b0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4C0EA4EB.8070401@philpem.me.uk> On 08/06/10 18:44, Andrew Burton wrote: > urgh, "science" was the same few things every year for five years for me > (autumn 1990-summer 1996) - human reproductive organs, plants reproduction, > basic physics and thats it. Sounds like what we did. except the "human reproduction" bit got cut... the students were instead treated to a lovely argument between the headmistress and the teacher in question: "IT'S FILTHY! You can't teach that in a public school!" "So how would you teach it?" "Don't! They'll learn it from TV, or their parents will teach them." After a bunch of parents intervened (actually made a REALLY big stink and threatened to take it to the city council) she ended up doing an about-face and started the lesson with... "Let it be known that I do not feel this subject is appropriate to be taught to anyone under the age of 21, and is in direct contravention to my beliefs. I'll hand over to your form tutor, but let it be known, you're probably all going to hell. Oh, and anyone laughing, chuckling or giggling during this session will find themselves with a detention." Did I mention she was religious to the point of zealotry? Yeeeah... made for some interesting altercations in RE ("Religious Education"). I posed the question "But how do you know that God exists?" and she answered with "Shut up or you'll be spending your lunch break in detention." Some of the teachers really hated it when I asked questions... others loved it. :) >> "Simples!" > No meerkats on here please! You fear de' meerkat? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 8 15:16:52 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:16:52 -0500 Subject: Senzig S-100 boards Message-ID: <201006082018.o58KIBCI013833@billY.EZWIND.NET> A year or so ago, Jim Battle passed along a tip from the brother of Don Senzig, a Milwaukee area S-100 devotee who passed away leaving a collection of old boards. I eventually received them. Here's a quick overview: http://www.flickr.com/photos/37817884 at N07/?saved=1 Are there any gems there? I'm not an S-100 collector, (although if an IMSAI fell in my lap I've take it (having helped my high school computer club build one, once upon a time.)) I'm open to ideas about disposing of these boards. I don't have any reason to keep them. - John From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 15:32:29 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 22:32:29 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com><4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com><4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: From: "Don North" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 10:08 PM To: Subject: Re: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 > I have the RX8e/RX01 controller passing the DIRXA diagnostic now, and am > in the processing of implementing the backing store on the SD card, so > hopefully in the next few weeks I'll get to boot an OS8 image from a > floppy image. > > Don > > PS: BTW for those ever considering implementing an RX floppy interface > for the PDP8 and want to run diagnostics, I did find a coding error in > the DIRXA (both rev C and D) diagnostics. In one specific test the XDR > IOT is being issued before checking for transfer request via the XTR > IOT. There is a simple patch to the diagnostic to fix it. Turns out it > runs OK on real hardware because the speed difference of a real PDP8e vs > a real RX01/2 controller, but if you speed up the RX controller past a > certain point the test will always fail. Thanks Don, that might be useful information! I hope to return to my 6809-based pdp8/e soon, to finish the RX01 emulation code. My 6809-based pdp8/e actually runs OS/8, but don't speak about speed! This thing is approx 60x slower than a real pdp8/e (if I can trust the timing mentioned in the diagnostics). So I probably will not have issues with the bug in DIRXA :-) Following this FPGA thread with much interest. I have a XESS board for some 3 years now, and still haven't really started to build up some knowledge! One of the projects I should get started on ... too many loose ends that await some time. Almost set for being QRV on HF. - Henk, PA8PDP From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 16:03:54 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:03:54 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) Message-ID: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sys/1777867686.html PDP 11/23+ - $1 (Sherman Oaks ) ------------------------------ Date: 2010-06-06, 7:35AM PDT Reply to: sale-ep5pk-1777867686 at craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads? ] ------------------------------ Western Digital , PDP 11/23+ , Brand New , Never Used , RLO2 , Kenedy Tape Drive -- Stephane http://DECpicted.blogspot.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 8 16:11:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 14:11:51 -0700 Subject: IBM Model M2 keyboard error codes (LEDS) In-Reply-To: References: <4C0E85FF.8010005@drexel.edu> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at Jun 8, 10 02:03:43 pm, Message-ID: <4C0E4FA7.14154.1680160@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2010 at 20:13, Tony Duell wrote: > The keyboard contains a microcotroller (8048 IIRC) which is reset by > an RC network in the keybaord, it doesn't sue the system reset line. i > suppose if the 5V line was risingtoo slowly, then the microcontroller > may not initialise properly. If it's connected to an AT+ system said PC normally sends out a RESET command to the keyboard. This is pretty much required as there are some "autoswitching" (XT-AT mode) keyboards that will send out a continuous stream of wrong-parity ACKs until they receive either an XT-style reset (holding clock and data low for ~200 msec) or an AT response (porobably any command; NAK or RESET will do). It goes without saying that bizarre and wonderfully non-functional things happen if you plug an XT keyboard into an AT-or-better system or an AT keyboard into an XT system. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 16:13:34 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 17:13:34 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com><4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4C0EB27E.7080603@verizon.net> On 6/8/2010 4:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Following this FPGA thread with much interest. I have a XESS board > for some 3 years now, and still haven't really started to build up some > knowledge! One of the projects I should get started on ... too many > loose ends that await some time. Almost set for being QRV on HF. Henk, I think I've seen those XESS boards before. Don't remember where, maybe advertised in circuit cellar or nuts and volts. Their website seems pretty goofy and for the most part doesn't work for me in firefox, so I'm not sure. I've enjoyed learning about digital logic and FPGAs. There is a fair bit to know. I've found verilog pretty straight forward to pickup. Once I get a better handle on it, I'll probably try my hand at VHDL as well. The Spartan 3E board I bought has a bunch of connectors, and built-in support chips. http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=S3EBOARD I've been working on a USB external amiga floppy drive controller for the PC. Read and create emulator .ADF images from floppies using a standard PC 3.5" drive. I first used a Parallax microcontroller, and then recently switched to an FPGA solution. Both work now. http://techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog/ Keith From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 8 16:14:28 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:14:28 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0EB2B4.4050605@philpem.me.uk> On 08/06/10 19:31, Tony Duell wrote: > There were microprocessor (and even microcontroller) projects hack then. > At least computers based round the SCMP, 6502 (Junior Computer), 2650 (TV > Games Computer). Point taken. But they were the exception rather than the norm. > I rememebr them saying it was better to store recharageble batteries in > the discharged state (since they then couldn't self-discharge). There my > be a battery technology where that's true, but most of the common ones > are better stored charged. Store a lithium-ion pack fully discharged and you're asking for trouble (if it self-discharges below ~3.5V most chargers won't touch it). Wouldn't be surprised if half the "dead" digicam and phone batteries were just discharged below the "minimum" mark; a 3.8V PSU with a 10mA limit will bring them back into the land of the living in a fairly short span of time. Li-ion and Li-polymer are generally best stored about half charged. Not sure about NiMH or Nicad, it's been a while since I read the spec sheets. AIUI Pb-acid and Pb-gel are best stored charged with a monthly top-off charge. Leave them on all the time and they sulphate -- or is that leaving them discharged? Again, been a while since I skimmed the spec sheets. > Second little hint : None of my cameras has a hard disk, or a CD-ROM > drive, or... Let's see what I've got in my kit box... Olympus OM10: Two SR44s, 35mm film. Have used it in some pretty rough conditions. Olympus OM4 w/ Winder II: Same story, two SR44s, but it eats them MUCH faster than the OM10. If I actually cared, I'd replace it with an OM4ti or an OM4 Mk.II (which have a newer, low-power controller board). You can theoretically use an OM4 with a flat battery, but you're limited to 1/60sec shutter speed and lose the metering. I still miss the multi-spot metering on the OM4. That was NICE, and if anyone ever ports CHDK to the EOS 7D, I'm adding it (might have to hack up live-view mode a bit but who cares!) :) Canon EOS 33v w/ battery grip: Two CR123 batteries, 35mm film, all-electronic. TTL metering, motor drive, autofocus (7-spot), and all the bells and whistles you could want. Doesn't balance well with any of the "L" series metal-body lenses. Canon EOS 7D w/ battery grip: Digital. Two lithium batteries in the grip (or one if you remove the grip), 18 megapixel APS-C sensor. 8 fps continuous burst for 19 shots on RAW (with a suitably fast memory card). VERY nice bit of kit, had it since release day (the privileges of working in a camera shop) and it hasn't let me down yet. Have previously owned: Olympus Trip 35. Let my brother borrow this, he rewarded my generosity by smashing the selenium cell. Now the metering is shot to buggery :( Canon EOS 400D w/ grip. Sold when I upgraded to a 40D Canon EOS 40D w/ grip. Sold when I got the 7D. New owner asked if he could have his money back because he "had a bit of an accident" with it... he'd dropped it in a duck pond. Idiot. >> I'd really like to learn how to do some more advanced >> plastic/metalworking (and get the tools to do it). > > It is great fun. The problem is the startup cost. A good lathe is not > cheap, but then again it will last all your life if you look after it. I'm probably going to start with something like a Proxxon MF70 micro-mill; at the very least it'll be useful for accurately drilling and cutting holes in front panels. I can knock holes into metal and plastic panels, but I can never get the edges straight, they always look a bit bumpy :-/ -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From spedraja at ono.com Tue Jun 8 16:23:29 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:23:29 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Exactly as the one that I'm searching in Europe (without luck) from years ago :-) Good luck for the one who save it. Sergio 2010/6/8 St?phane Tsacas > http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sys/1777867686.html PDP 11/23+ - $1 > (Sherman Oaks ) > ------------------------------ > Date: 2010-06-06, 7:35AM PDT > Reply to: sale-ep5pk-1777867686 at craigslist.org< > sale-ep5pk-1777867686 at craigslist.org?subject=PDP%2011%2F23%2B%20-%20%241%20(Sherman%20Oaks%20)&body=%0A%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Flosangeles.craigslist.org%2Fsfv%2Fsys%2F1777867686.html%0A > > > [Errors when replying to > ads? > ] > ------------------------------ > > Western Digital , PDP 11/23+ , Brand New , Never Used , RLO2 , Kenedy Tape > Drive > > -- > Stephane > http://DECpicted.blogspot.com > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 8 16:51:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 14:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dynalogic Hyperion MS-DOS disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100608140501.T89848@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, r.stricklin wrote: > I'm helping a local school district with a technology exhibit. They > have a Dynalogic Hyperion, and are looking for the custom MS-DOS for it. > Anyone who might be able to help is encouraged to contact me off-list. Sorry, no copies. I think that what you will want is the Dynalogic Hyperion MS-DOS 2.11. (Hmmmmm. Did Dynalogic last past 1.25?) I don't remember there being any major differences, other than MODE.COM between Dynalogic and other "innovative clones". Most other versions of MS-DOS should work, except, . . . Find THEIR MODE.COM If you can find their MODE.COM, but not the right MS-DOS ("Incorrect DOS Version"), then put a spare copy into DEBUG and find and neuter MOV AH, 30h INT 21 CMP AX, 0B02h Jx . . . (The DOS version test is unnecessarily cautious) also, find GWBASIC from a similar version of DOS (2.00, 2.11), . . . For later MS-DOS machines, look for version 3.31 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 8 17:56:04 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:56:04 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:03 PM +0200 6/8/10, St?phane Tsacas wrote: >http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sys/1777867686.html PDP 11/23+ - $1 >(Sherman Oaks ) > >Western Digital , PDP 11/23+ , Brand New , Never Used , RLO2 , Kenedy Tape >Drive It's probably just as well I'm no where near close, but I have to question the description. What is the odds of a 20-30 year old system being "brand new", and where do the Western Digital and Kennedy Tape Drive come into play based on the photo. I see a /23+ and two RL02's. A rather nice config. I have a /23 like that, though lack the rack. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trag at io.com Tue Jun 8 17:56:21 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 17:56:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: A Hackintosh ... in 1986 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2010 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > Somewhat offtopic, but if anyone in the northeastern part of the US has > any totally cool PowerMac clones (Radius, Moto, etc.), I might be > interested. As long as they're totally cool. You need an Outbound Laptop Model 125 from 1989. It was totally cool. It weighed about 9 lbs, which was still lighter than the Macintosh Portable, had a detachable IR keyboard with pointing device. The pointing device was an isobar which rolls for up and down movement and slides side to side for left right. In addition to the normal four SIMM sockets for 4 MB of system RAM, there were four SIMM sockets for persistent RAM Disk (called a Silicon Disk by Outbound) which could be up to 16 MB with four 4MB SIMMs (one of these days I'll try 16 MB SIMMs in there). The CPU was a 15 MHz 68000 and it used either SE or Plus ROMs. The screen was 640 X 400 LCD. It used a standard camcorder battery. One could have either an internal floppy drive or an internal 2.5" IDE drive of 20, 40, 60 or 80 MB capacity. However, this creates the biggest conundrum for the collector. If you get one with the internal hard drive, you have no floppy drive unless you get the external floppy drive with it. Many of these machines have been separated from their peripherals over the years. And the floppy was not "standard". It was a standard Citizen brand floppy mechanism, but it had a controller card on the back end with a security protected GAL included. Sigh. As well as a 37C65, a WD92C32, a small Atmel EEPROM (28C64) and a Xicor X9103 (digital pot.). It was possible to dock the Laptop to the (now ROMless) SE or Plus (if one had a docking card installed in the ROM sockets) and then use the I/O ports, screen and memory of the ROM-less host computer. So one could have dual screen operation. The Outbound could also be put in Target Disk mode when using the SCSI adapter so that the internal IDE drive would appear as a SCSI disk to a connected host machine. Or the SCSI adapter could just be used to connect to SCSI peripherals. Standard Macintosh Serial ports were included with support for LocalTalk, so if you lack an external floppy drive, file transfer via LocalTalk/AppleTalk is still possible. There were other cool features and much thoughtfulness in the design, such as a cable to connect the keyboard if one was operating in an environment where the IR wouldn't work (bright sunlight?). And a Bus Mouse port on the keyboard so one could use a mouse instead of the Isopoint device. I wish I could track down Doug Schwartz who owned/started Outbound. I'd really like the code for the GALs in the floppy adapter and the SCSI adapter (assuming he still has them). And if he has the source for the laptop EEPROMs (there was a little code in additional EEPROMs in the laptop to handle various details) that would be nice. They were based in Boulder, CO. Anyway, as far as cool Mac clones, in my opinion, the Laptop Model 125 was the coolest. Outbound later made some nicer Notebook computers with lower weights and more traditional form factors, but the Laptop Model 125 takes the cake for cool features at a very early date. The clones of the mid-to-late 90s were (mostly) just Apple chip sets (and often entire Apple logic boards) wedded with different power supplies and computer cases. When you dig into the actual feature sets, they didn't offer anything you couldn't already get from Apple, except that one clone that had the standard set of PC ports... The Laptop 125, it had innovative stuff that didn't come from Apple. Jeff Walther From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 18:04:05 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:04:05 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:03 PM +0200 6/8/10, St?phane Tsacas wrote: >> >> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sys/1777867686.html PDP 11/23+ - $1 >> (Sherman Oaks ) >> >> Western Digital , PDP 11/23+ , Brand New , Never Used , RLO2 , Kenedy Tape >> Drive > > It's probably just as well I'm no where near close, but I have to question > the description. What is the odds of a 20-30 year old system being "brand > new", and where do the Western Digital and Kennedy Tape Drive come into play > based on the photo. ?I see a /23+ and two RL02's. ?A rather nice config. ?I > have a /23 like that, though lack the rack. I'll let you know... I've contacted the seller and told him that if he didn't get any local offers, I'd be interested (I'm in San Jose). The family would enjoy a long weekend drive to LA... :) Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 8 18:07:36 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:07:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net> References: <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net> Message-ID: <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > I'm considering disassembling a Model M keyboard to see if I can repair > a key problem. Currently pressing either the "B" or the "V" keys give a > two character string "BV", regardless of which key is pressed unless you > hold it for a several seconds, at which point the actual key pressed > starts repeating. > I've never been inside a Model M before... Is there anyone on list with > said experience that can offer pointers? or thoughts on the problem. > Keyboard is a complete unknown although everything else *seems* to work... two physically adjacent keys? That sounds as though it could be as simple as some foreign matter. Or domestic, it doesn't really matter where it came from. You would be amazed at what is in keyboards - staples, marijuana seeds, Pepsi, etc. Turn it over and on end, and shake it and rap it a good one. If that doesn't help, do NOT remove the space bar! But you can pop the other keytops off and clean out the top. Thee are conflicting views on whether you should run the keytops, or the whole machine, through the "dishwasher" (parts cleaner). From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 8 18:12:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriously, eliminating practical scince -- interesting practical > science, is exactly the part of H&S that I object to. I was fortunate in > that I did get to mess around with things that could have been dangerous > if misused -- HV power supplies, the mains, evacuated galls vessels, > sharp tools, etc and never had a serious injury. Mainly because I thought > about what I was doing and took some care. Isn't it EXTREMELY dangerous, and totally lacking in health and safety consciousness, to raise an entire generation who never got taught how to properly and safely wire a plug?????? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 8 18:21:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 19:21:04 -0400 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> On 6/8/10 7:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> More seriously, eliminating practical scince -- interesting practical >> science, is exactly the part of H&S that I object to. I was fortunate in >> that I did get to mess around with things that could have been dangerous >> if misused -- HV power supplies, the mains, evacuated galls vessels, >> sharp tools, etc and never had a serious injury. Mainly because I thought >> about what I was doing and took some care. > > > Isn't it EXTREMELY dangerous, and totally lacking in health and safety > consciousness, to raise an entire generation who never got taught how to > properly and safely wire a plug?????? I'm sure doing that will be illegal soon. "Call an electrician". *SPIT* -Dave, wiring his own outlets since age 9 ...with the breakers on -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 8 18:27:53 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net> <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > Thee are conflicting views on whether you should run the keytops, or the > whole machine, through the "dishwasher" (parts cleaner). I don't recommend putting the whole thing in a dishwasher or anything similar unless you're willing to take the WHOLE thing apart. If you do that, you'll need to get some machine screws and nuts to hold the innards together. See http://sandy55.fc2web.com/keyboard/repair_model_m.html for what's involved. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From shumaker at att.net Tue Jun 8 18:29:08 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 19:29:08 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net> <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0ED244.6080507@att.net> ! hadn't thought of that. will let you know steve Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, steve shumaker wrote: > >> I'm considering disassembling a Model M keyboard to see if I can repair >> a key problem. Currently pressing either the "B" or the "V" keys give a >> two character string "BV", regardless of which key is pressed unless you >> hold it for a several seconds, at which point the actual key pressed >> starts repeating. >> I've never been inside a Model M before... Is there anyone on list with >> said experience that can offer pointers? or thoughts on the problem. >> Keyboard is a complete unknown although everything else *seems* to work... >> > > two physically adjacent keys? > > That sounds as though it could be as simple as some foreign matter. Or > domestic, it doesn't really matter where it came from. You would be > amazed at what is in keyboards - staples, marijuana seeds, Pepsi, etc. > > Turn it over and on end, and shake it and rap it a good one. > > If that doesn't help, do NOT remove the space bar! But you can pop the > other keytops off and clean out the top. > > Thee are conflicting views on whether you should run the keytops, or the > whole machine, through the "dishwasher" (parts cleaner). > > > > From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 19:35:49 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 19:35:49 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > It's probably just as well I'm no where near close, but I have to question > the description. What is the odds of a 20-30 year old system being "brand > new", and where do the Western Digital and Kennedy Tape Drive come into play > based on the photo. ?I see a /23+ and two RL02's. ?A rather nice config. ?I > have a /23 like that, though lack the rack. Pretty sure that's a stock/Googled photo. I think I've even seen it before. If it's real, whoever gets it might check the recent archives as I recall someone looking for the 1U "DEC Datasystem" strip. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 8 20:15:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:15:45 -0700 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net>, <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2010 at 16:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > two physically adjacent keys? > > That sounds as though it could be as simple as some foreign matter. > Or domestic, it doesn't really matter where it came from. You would > be amazed at what is in keyboards - staples, marijuana seeds, Pepsi, > etc. > > Turn it over and on end, and shake it and rap it a good one. > > If that doesn't help, do NOT remove the space bar! But you can pop > the other keytops off and clean out the top. What's that about not removing the space bar? I've done that on several of the model Ms that I own. What's supposed to be the problem (other than getting the equalizer wire put back right)? But foreign matter is usually the problem. Today I ate an oatmeal cookie over my model M and the return key stuck. Turning the keyboard upside down and giving it a couple raps on the desktop dropped the crud out. If you really need to open it up, a 7/32" thinshell nutdriver or socket--most are too thick to completely fit down the recess. Snap- on, Sears and K-D carry them. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 8 21:51:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 19:51:05 -0700 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> References: , <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net>, <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C0E9F29.20554.29E92A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2010 at 19:21, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'm sure doing that will be illegal soon. "Call an electrician". > > *SPIT* I am firmly of the opinion that there are *some* people who should not be allowed within 150 yards (137 m) of a screwdriver. Case in point, the guy from whom I bought my house. I had to go through and test every outlet--about half were wired backwards--and he'd lived in the place for 10 years. But then, he was a clinical psychologist. --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 8 22:00:43 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:00:43 -0400 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> References: <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201006082300.43417.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday, June 08, 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/8/10 7:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >> More seriously, eliminating practical scince -- interesting > >> practical science, is exactly the part of H&S that I object to. I > >> was fortunate in that I did get to mess around with things that > >> could have been dangerous if misused -- HV power supplies, the > >> mains, evacuated galls vessels, sharp tools, etc and never had a > >> serious injury. Mainly because I thought about what I was doing > >> and took some care. > > > > Isn't it EXTREMELY dangerous, and totally lacking in health and > > safety consciousness, to raise an entire generation who never got > > taught how to properly and safely wire a plug?????? > > I'm sure doing that will be illegal soon. "Call an electrician". > > *SPIT* Local laws, unlikely but I guess possible, but not nationally or globally. Still, I really doubt 99.9+% of communities would consider that. I (as a homeowner) can still do my own wiring on my house where I live, legally. I upgraded my service shortly after moving into my house, and had no problem getting the permit, getting it inspected, or dealing with the utility company. I really doubt that'll change any time soon. If you have problems where you are, maybe it's "time to move." :P Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 8 22:17:40 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 20:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0E9F29.20554.29E92A0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net>, <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> <4C0E9F29.20554.29E92A0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100608201409.K1982@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I am firmly of the opinion that there are *some* people who should > not be allowed within 150 yards (137 m) of a screwdriver. Case in > point, the guy from whom I bought my house. I had to go through and > test every outlet--about half were wired backwards--and he'd lived in > the place for 10 years. > > But then, he was a clinical psychologist. Maybe he felt an urgent personal need to alternate polarity? 40 years ago, I thought that requirement of an electrician to wire outlets and switches was silly, and that ANYBODY could wire an outlet or switch right. Some of the stuff that I've encountered in the last 40 years has convinced me otherwise. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 22:40:23 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 20:40:23 -0700 Subject: Latest rescue... Message-ID: Ok, I found it on EBay, but I consider it a rescue. :) This is an HP 9836 Model 200, a machine I've been looking to find for quite some time. It's a Motorola 68k-based workstation that was targeted (I believe) at the scientific market. It runs a proprietary OS and has several languages available for it. My next goal is to try and generate diskettes for it, which is not going to be easy until I finish getting my IBM PC set up for use at home. There's more information available at http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=3 and I have a photo posted at http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4243664&l=a9af6169d9&id=734972117 I don't know if anyone would be interested in something like this, but the seller has several more of these (they were apparently in a warehouse he was asked to liquidate) and he's had some trouble finding buyers. The biggest issue is shipping them. This is an 85 pound machine and it cost about $80 to ship it to me UPS Ground (I didn't get the chance to ask him to use a different shipper). If anyone is interested in one, I can collect email addresses and send them to him. I believe he is willing to let each one go for $25 plus shipping. Mark Davidson mdavidson1963 at gmail.com From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 22:43:44 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:43:44 -0400 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <20100608201409.K1982@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> <4C0E9F29.20554.29E92A0@cclist.sydex.com> <20100608201409.K1982@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 23:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > 40 years ago, I thought that requirement of an electrician to wire outlets > and switches was silly, and that ANYBODY could wire an outlet or switch > right. ?Some of the stuff that I've encountered in the last 40 years has > convinced me otherwise. There is also the question of liability (isn't there always?) and enforcement. 'Round here, you can wire your own house. But legally, you'll have to have an electrician check it afterwards. But who will check? Noone, ever. So, when does it actually matter? When you house burns down due to an electrical fault. Good luck with your adjuster then. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From frebird2 at swbell.net Tue Jun 8 22:44:44 2010 From: frebird2 at swbell.net (chris candrl) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:44:44 -0500 Subject: Heading to the recycler Message-ID: <4C0F0E2C.3030304@swbell.net> I have (2) Black Box Modular Statistical Stat-24 Multiplexer's (MX868A) that are destined for the recycler at the end of this week unless someone on this list wants them. I may be able to locate line drivers that can be used with these units as well. Please contact me off list if you are interested in them. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 8 22:49:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 20:49:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net>, <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100608203521.I1982@shell.lmi.net> > > Turn it over and on end, and shake it and rap it a good one. > > If that doesn't help, do NOT remove the space bar! But you can pop > > the other keytops off and clean out the top. On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What's that about not removing the space bar? I've done that on > several of the model Ms that I own. What's supposed to be the > problem (other than getting the equalizer wire put back right)? Almost anybody can pop the other keys off and back on. Getting them in the right places is another issue. Is that how AZERTY and Dvorak were discovered? But, I was too lazy to write out the special procedures for dealing with the space bar. > But foreign matter is usually the problem. Today I ate an oatmeal > cookie over my model M and the return key stuck. Turning the > keyboard upside down and giving it a couple raps on the desktop > dropped the crud out. Surely y'all are familiar with the "Pepsi Syndrome"? Subject: OFF-TOPIC: Re: A Coke/Pepsi funny! On Sat, 6 Jan 2001, S wrote: > > Now I really do like Pepsi!!! All of those tips work equally well with both (BTW, for a rusted bolt, plan on soaking overnight, NOT a few minutes) BUT, ... I have always reassured my programming students that nothing that they accidentally enter through the keyboard of their computers would actually DAMAGE the computer. One wiseguy said,"I entered a Pepsi." After "The China Syndrome", when Three Mile Island happened, Saturday Night Live apeculated that it was caused by "The Pepsi Syndrome", the result of spilling a Pepsi into a computer keyboard. Shortly after that, the U.S.A. and USSR (CCCP) normalized diplomatic relations enough to import vodka and export Pepsi to Russia. That was followed almost immediately by Chernobyl. Surely that could not be coincidence! Until their recent bailout, Apple computers ride onto the rocks was with a former Pepsi executive at the helm. Coincidence? Ever since we banned Pepsi from our computer lab, we have not had any meltdowns! -30- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 8 23:05:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 00:05:42 -0400 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> <4C0E9F29.20554.29E92A0@cclist.sydex.com> <20100608201409.K1982@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0F1316.3070309@neurotica.com> On 6/8/10 11:43 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 23:17, Fred Cisin wrote: >> 40 years ago, I thought that requirement of an electrician to wire outlets >> and switches was silly, and that ANYBODY could wire an outlet or switch >> right. Some of the stuff that I've encountered in the last 40 years has >> convinced me otherwise. > > There is also the question of liability (isn't there always?) and enforcement. > > 'Round here, you can wire your own house. But legally, you'll have to > have an electrician check it afterwards. But who will check? Noone, > ever. So, when does it actually matter? When you house burns down > due to an electrical fault. Good luck with your adjuster then. And if that happens, you get what you've got coming. Don't attempt something without learning how to do it properly. The ghost of Darwin is alive and well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 9 00:21:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 22:21:32 -0700 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <20100608203521.I1982@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100608203521.I1982@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C0EC26C.13638.32850D5@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2010 at 20:49, Fred Cisin wrote: > Surely y'all are familiar with the "Pepsi Syndrome"? Unsweetened tea is about the only beverage that gets close to my machine. It may short something out, but probably won't gum anything up. At CDC, the CEs would pitch a fit if they saw anyone sitting at the 6000 console with a cup of coffee of a soft drink. I seem to remember that the keyswitch matrix was hand-wired (not a PCB)--at least, that's what I think I saw when I spied a CE poking around underneath with a popsicle stick trying to fix a bad key. Although smoking was prohibited, they usually wouldn't say anything as long as you had an ashtray on the console. Cigarette burns on the equipment looked nasty. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 00:39:46 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 00:39:46 -0500 Subject: Latest rescue... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > This is an HP 9836 Model 200, a machine I've been looking to find for > quite some time. ?It's a Motorola 68k-based workstation that was > targeted (I believe) at the scientific market. ?It runs a proprietary > OS and has several languages available for it. ?My next goal is to try > and generate diskettes for it, which is not going to be easy until I > finish getting my IBM PC set up for use at home. Hey, I've got on of those! Except mine is 9826, with the built-in small screen and single floppy. Not aware of any addtional three digits to the number. I would be very interested to hear of your success in getting OS/program media for it. Mine turns on and lets me type in BASIC programs, but it fails to boot off any of the disks it came with. I have two rom carts in the back, I believe RS232 and HP-IB, which sounds pretty standard. > If anyone is interested in one, I can collect email addresses and send > them to him. ?I believe he is willing to let each one go for $25 plus > shipping. This could be interesting. I wonder, does he have any spare monitors? I know your model requires it, but I;m not sure if mine allows one. Seems plenty flat on top to accommodate one. -- j From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 01:09:27 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:09:27 -0700 Subject: Latest rescue... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I forgot to mention that the machines are located in Largo, FL. Mark On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 8:40 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Ok, I found it on EBay, but I consider it a rescue. :) > > This is an HP 9836 Model 200, a machine I've been looking to find for > quite some time. ?It's a Motorola 68k-based workstation that was > targeted (I believe) at the scientific market. ?It runs a proprietary > OS and has several languages available for it. ?My next goal is to try > and generate diskettes for it, which is not going to be easy until I > finish getting my IBM PC set up for use at home. > > There's more information available at > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=3 and I have a photo > posted at http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4243664&l=a9af6169d9&id=734972117 > > I don't know if anyone would be interested in something like this, but > the seller has several more of these (they were apparently in a > warehouse he was asked to liquidate) and he's had some trouble finding > buyers. ?The biggest issue is shipping them. ?This is an 85 pound > machine and it cost about $80 to ship it to me UPS Ground (I didn't > get the chance to ask him to use a different shipper). > > If anyone is interested in one, I can collect email addresses and send > them to him. ?I believe he is willing to let each one go for $25 plus > shipping. > > Mark Davidson > mdavidson1963 at gmail.com > From tingox at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 16:50:27 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 23:50:27 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Don North wrote: > > Currently my PDP-8e compatible design on an Altera CycloneII EP2C20 takes > about 9% of the total available resources (using internal block ram for the > first 4Kx12 memory; pages 1-7 use the external on-board SRAM). So there is > lots of logic left to implement peripherals. > Cool! This isn't an Altera DE1 board by any chance? http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=53&No=83 I've got one of those. Fun things. :) -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 9 01:49:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 02:49:33 -0400 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <201006082300.43417.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> <201006082300.43417.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C0F397D.1090302@neurotica.com> On 6/8/10 11:00 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Local laws, unlikely but I guess possible, but not nationally or > globally. Still, I really doubt 99.9+% of communities would consider > that. I sure hope you're right. > I (as a homeowner) can still do my own wiring on my house where I live, > legally. I upgraded my service shortly after moving into my house, and > had no problem getting the permit, getting it inspected, or dealing with > the utility company. I really doubt that'll change any time soon. > > If you have problems where you are, maybe it's "time to move." :P No problems here yet, thank heaven. I specifically chose this house because it has no conformity enforcement committee ("homeowners association") or other such nonsense, and it's in an area where people generally don't give a shit about what people do with their own property. Of course, this area has other problems, but at least there are no hobbyless busybodies telling me what I should and should not be doing. But for other reasons, now that you mention it, it IS becoming "time to move". The rapidly deteriorating weather from the climate change that isn't happening, and the soon-to-be-toxic beaches due to BP's "safety first!" oil well procedures are making me take a hard look at real estate prices. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 9 01:59:12 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 23:59:12 -0700 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem References: , <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100608203521.I1982@shell.lmi.net> <4C0EC26C.13638.32850D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C0F3BC0.8E9B3CC0@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 8 Jun 2010 at 20:49, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Surely y'all are familiar with the "Pepsi Syndrome"? > > Unsweetened tea is about the only beverage that gets close to my > machine. It may short something out, but probably won't gum anything > up. A couple weeks ago a friend's young daughter spilled a bowl of Cheerios and milk into her 1-year-old MacBook. Big Crisis. I ended up having to take the thing entirely apart for washing. I would have hoped for a membrane or barrier to isolate spills within the keyboard and drain liquid out to the perimeter and away from the electronics. Instead, there are ventilation intake holes underneath some of the keys, so spilled liquids flow right through into the guts and onto the processor board. I was somewhat appalled at the design in this regard, although perhaps it is typical of laptops in general these days, it was the first 'modern' one I have dismantled. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Jun 9 02:01:06 2010 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 00:01:06 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4C0F3C32.4070609@mindspring.com> Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Don North wrote: > > >> Currently my PDP-8e compatible design on an Altera CycloneII EP2C20 takes >> about 9% of the total available resources (using internal block ram for the >> first 4Kx12 memory; pages 1-7 use the external on-board SRAM). So there is >> lots of logic left to implement peripherals. >> >> > > Cool! This isn't an Altera DE1 board by any chance? > http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=53&No=83 > I've got one of those. Fun things. :) > Exactly that. I've got one of the Digilent S3 boards as well, but started doing development on the DE1 instead since it has the SDCARD socket on the board, and I can run the whole thing from USB for power. At some point I'll probably port the code to the S3 board (shouldn't be that hard, haven't done anything that is really Altera specific in the code). From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 9 03:00:00 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 04:00:00 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem References: , <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100608203521.I1982@shell.lmi.net> <4C0EC26C.13638.32850D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 1:21 AM Subject: Re: Model M Keyboard problem > On 8 Jun 2010 at 20:49, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Surely y'all are familiar with the "Pepsi Syndrome"? > > Unsweetened tea is about the only beverage that gets close to my > machine. It may short something out, but probably won't gum anything > up. > That is a major issue with keyboards and laptops, sticky residue that keeps things from working even if nothing shorted out at the initial spill. For Model M keyboards (or keyboards in general that I plan on keeping and using) the first thing I do with them is take the covers off and wash them by hand. Remove the outside cable, and then wash the keyboard/circuit board section with warm water and dish soap with "oxy" in it. They rinse it all off with warm water to get the soap off and any junk out from under the keys. let it all dry a day or so in the dry basement next to a glass block window, they reassemble and it all works. Smell nice and all the crud is gone. I have a few laptops that partially worked when I got them but had major issues because people spilled pop into them. generally I look for something shorted or blown but most of the time it is just sticky stuff found in crevices after taking them completely apart. A simple wash with soap and water will fix the problem, plus they look and smell much better after (I hate smokers machines). Generally I do not eat or drink around my computers, I don't like food particles in my keyboards (bad enough I have cats around with hairs that need vacuumed). Doing that makes me take a break every so often to grab a drink or snack and stretch my legs. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Jun 9 03:52:36 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (jdr_use at bluewin.ch) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 08:52:36 +0000 (GMT+00:00) Subject: AW: Re: Latest rescue... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30337056.46951276073556571.JavaMail.webmail@ps27zhb.bluewin.ch> > This is an HP 9836 Model 200, a machine I've been looking to find for > quite some time. ?It's a Motorola 68k-based workstation that was > targeted (I believe) at the scientific market. ?It runs a proprietary > OS and has several languages available for it. ?My next goal is to try > and generate diskettes for it, which is not going to be easy until I > finish getting my IBM PC set up for use at home. I am at the moment offering a set of HP9826 disks ( Basic / Pascal ) on the well know auction house. Jos Dreesen From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 9 04:54:37 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:54:37 +0200 Subject: Latest rescue... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jason T > Verzonden: woensdag 9 juni 2010 7:40 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Latest rescue... > > On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Mark Davidson > wrote: > > > This is an HP 9836 Model 200, a machine I've been looking > to find for > > quite some time. ?It's a Motorola 68k-based workstation that was > > targeted (I believe) at the scientific market. ?It runs a > proprietary > > OS and has several languages available for it. ?My next > goal is to try > > and generate diskettes for it, which is not going to be > easy until I > > finish getting my IBM PC set up for use at home. > > Hey, I've got on of those! Except mine is 9826, with the > built-in small screen and single floppy. Not aware of any > addtional three digits to the number. I would be very > interested to hear of your success in getting OS/program > media for it. Mine turns on and lets me type in BASIC > programs, but it fails to boot off any of the disks it came > with. I have two rom carts in the back, I believe RS232 and > HP-IB, which sounds pretty standard. > > > If anyone is interested in one, I can collect email > addresses and send > > them to him. ?I believe he is willing to let each one go > for $25 plus > > shipping. > > This could be interesting. I wonder, does he have any spare monitors? > I know your model requires it, but I;m not sure if mine allows one. > Seems plenty flat on top to accommodate one. > > -- > j > The HP 9826 doesn't allow an external monitor from it self. But you can make use of a DIO-card with a vidoe output mono or rgb and use another monitor. The three extra digits are the series it a HP 9000 series 200 model 26 or HP 9826 series 200. Hp wasn't realy consistent with there naming at the beginning of the series 200. With the use of a external HP-IB drive like the HP 9121 which is a 3.5" SS drive you can make use of 3.5 inch disc's. HP9826 / 36 machines are used for science but also for production automation and automatic measurement systems. I got some serie 200's from Erikson and Volvo which were used for measurement in production systems. -Rik From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 9 06:51:35 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 06:51:35 -0500 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0F397D.1090302@neurotica.com> References: <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> <201006082300.43417.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C0F397D.1090302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201006091153.o59BrEwK057069@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:49 AM 6/9/2010, Dave McGuire wrote: >and it's in an area where people >generally don't give a shit about what people do with their own >property. Florida, or the southeast USA, in other words. :-) - John From dmhills at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 07:15:08 2010 From: dmhills at gmail.com (Don Hills) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 00:15:08 +1200 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com> <20100608203521.I1982@shell.lmi.net> <4C0EC26C.13638.32850D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Rather than remove the plastic stakes and have to replace them with machine screws and nuts, try the following: 1. To disassemble, take a drill bit that's larger than the "melted over" end of the stake and *slowly* drill into the end of each stake, using the dimple in its centre to guide the bit. Stop drilling when you reach the metal. This should allow the plate to lift off the stakes. 2. Before reassembly, try and obtain some very small "self tapping" screws, such as those that hold together small electronic gizmos. Some have heads with large flanges, like "built in" washers. If the heads aren't large enough, you'll need washers too. If you can't find the right screws, go ahead with the machine screw method. 3. Using a drill bit small enough to make the right size hole for the screws, drill into the end of each stake, using the depression made previously by the large bit as a centring guide. 4. Reassemble the keyboard parts over the stakes and fasten with the screws. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 09:14:59 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 07:14:59 -0700 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <20100608201409.K1982@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net>, , <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com>, <4C0E9F29.20554.29E92A0@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100608201409.K1982@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 20:17:40 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? > > On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I am firmly of the opinion that there are *some* people who should > > not be allowed within 150 yards (137 m) of a screwdriver. Case in > > point, the guy from whom I bought my house. I had to go through and > > test every outlet--about half were wired backwards--and he'd lived in > > the place for 10 years. > > > > But then, he was a clinical psychologist. > > Maybe he felt an urgent personal need to alternate polarity? > > > 40 years ago, I thought that requirement of an electrician to wire outlets > and switches was silly, and that ANYBODY could wire an outlet or switch > right. Some of the stuff that I've encountered in the last 40 years has > convinced me otherwise. > > Hi The problem is that even an electrician can do a bad job. I'm purchasing a house that had some recent work done. It had a new breaker panel with 20A breakers instead of 15A that would match the wiring. It had 3 prong sockets installed but it seems no one checked that the ground wires were actually connected and one socket has reversed hot and neutral. If I'd hired the guy, I'd have been really pissed off. I've seen similar ( but not quite this bad ) work done in the pass by someone that was claimed to be a licensed electrician. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 9 09:50:20 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 08:50:20 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> What are the programs needed to program under OS/8 in assembler using OS/8 as I/O for the assembler? What is the OS/8 handbook that lists the OS/8 system calls for OS/8 use from assembler. IS IT ONLINE as pdf? Planing to write a few new programs for the 8, because we have the technology. Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 9 10:37:19 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 08:37:19 -0700 Subject: Latest rescue... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C0FB52F.5090603@bitsavers.org> On 6/8/10 10:39 PM, Jason T wrote: > I would be very interested to hear of your > success in getting OS/program media for it. Floppy images are available on the Australian HP Museum site. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 9 11:04:28 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 12:04:28 -0400 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <201006091153.o59BrEwK057069@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20100608161013.E89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0ED060.9000407@neurotica.com> <201006082300.43417.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C0F397D.1090302@neurotica.com> <201006091153.o59BrEwK057069@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C0FBB8C.5010100@neurotica.com> On 6/9/10 7:51 AM, John Foust wrote: >> and it's in an area where people >> generally don't give a shit about what people do with their own >> property. > > Florida, or the southeast USA, in other words. :-) I meant my specific town, actually. 45mi south of here (Cape Coral, where I used to live) is filled to overflowing with lawn nazis, invasive "concerned" soccer moms, and other such useless people. My current town, on the other hand, is overrun by people who achieve "coolness" in their respective social groups by making their vehicles loud: Roaring pickup trucks whose owners think they're racecars, buzzing Hondas with big exhaust tips, sputtering/gurgling Mustangs trying to sound fast, motorcycles that can be heard for miles, Cadillacs with booming subwoofers...regardless of the social group, it's all about noisy transportation, presumably for people who can't attract attention in any other way...it's kinda pathetic. Every town has its good and bad points, but here in SW FL there seems to be quite a contrast between them, even in adjacent areas. A bored sociologist would have a blast down here. I find it fascinating, if distracting at times, especially when I'm trying to concentrate. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 11:20:42 2010 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 18:20:42 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Jason T" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 2:35 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Subject: Re: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) > On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> It's probably just as well I'm no where near close, but I have to >> question >> the description. What is the odds of a 20-30 year old system being "brand >> new", and where do the Western Digital and Kennedy Tape Drive come into >> play >> based on the photo. I see a /23+ and two RL02's. A rather nice config. I >> have a /23 like that, though lack the rack. > > Pretty sure that's a stock/Googled photo. I think I've even seen it > before. If it's real, whoever gets it might check the recent archives > as I recall someone looking for the 1U "DEC Datasystem" strip. That was me, just a few days ago. I saw the 1U strip, but if this system is bought by somebody, I hardly expect him to sell that strip to me, unless the buyer is bidding on the auction for the parts CPU, boards or drives. In that case, I would love to hear from the buyer! (That said, I assume the buyer might be willing to bid $10-$20 more ...) - Henk. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 11:59:36 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:59:36 -0700 Subject: Latest rescue... In-Reply-To: <4C0FB52F.5090603@bitsavers.org> References: <4C0FB52F.5090603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/8/10 10:39 PM, Jason T wrote: >> >> I would be very interested to hear of your >> success in getting OS/program media for it. > > Floppy images are available on the Australian HP Museum site. I did find those (and the guy who runs the site is quite nice)... my biggest problem is finishing my setup so I can make diskettes, and it appears that some of the images are for 3-1/2" drives (my machine came with 5-1/4"). Mark From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 9 15:03:02 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 22:03:02 +0200 Subject: Latest rescue... In-Reply-To: References: <4C0FB52F.5090603@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <252101FF2ECD44779B4023704A3C5D06@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Mark Davidson > Verzonden: woensdag 9 juni 2010 19:00 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Latest rescue... > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 6/8/10 10:39 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> > >> I would be very interested to hear of your success in getting > >> OS/program media for it. > > > > Floppy images are available on the Australian HP Museum site. > > I did find those (and the guy who runs the site is quite > nice)... my biggest problem is finishing my setup so I can > make diskettes, and it appears that some of the images are > for 3-1/2" drives (my machine came with 5-1/4"). > > Mark Jon is a very nice guy who always want to help classic HP-owners. Default configuration for the 9836 is 5.25 if you want to use 3.5 you need a 9121/9122 drive. If you want one, contact me off-list. -Rik From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 15:39:46 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 16:39:46 -0400 Subject: PS/2 model 77s Message-ID: I have a bunch of IBM PS/2 model 77s here that are not long for this world. If there is any serious interest, please let me know. If no real interest, into the grinder they go! Please contact off list. I am in 10512. If you want me to ship, I need to have it worth my while. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 15:49:28 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 16:49:28 -0400 Subject: PS/2 model 77s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a bunch of IBM PS/2 model 77s People are asking, so: I think these machines are all fitted with a pretty standard set of guts - I do not think you will find any weird cards or huge disks or anything. I have not tested these machines. Condition is so-so - about what you would expect from a warehouse. Keep in mind these are not light, and will take time to pack. I know the machines are not worth all that much, so packing will likely be more than the machine are worth. Basically, make offers. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 9 16:00:30 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 14:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PS/2 model 77s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > I think these machines are all fitted with a pretty standard set of > guts - I do not think you will find any weird cards or huge disks or > anything. I have not tested these machines. Condition is so-so - about > what you would expect from a warehouse. Actually I was thinking these might have some nice small disks. I have a nice stash of 100MB and 200MB 1" high 3.5" SCSI HD's that came out of some model of PS/2. I bought them 10+ years ago from someone that scrapped out a whole pile of PS/2's. They're great for my PDP-11. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 14:50:44 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 20:50:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0EA4EB.8070401@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 8, 10 09:15:39 pm Message-ID: > Some of the teachers really hated it when I asked questions... others > loved it. :) They generally _hated_ my questions. For example in A-level physics... 'You told us last week that the hole current in a p-type semiconductor was really electrons flowing the other way. So how come the polarity of the Hall voltage does depend on whether it's an n-type or p-type semiconductor' (THat is a particularly evil question. It is actually impossible to explain classically) Mind you I had enough 'arguements' with said teachers over the years to realise they had very little clue about what was really going on. One classic was the time they told me that my method of measuing something (actually capitance) was a 'comparison' and not a 'measurement'. To this day I am trying to find a defintion of 'measurement' that does not involve comparison to a standard. And for the record _every_ respectable book I've looked in has agreed with me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 14:55:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 20:55:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM Model M2 keyboard error codes (LEDS) In-Reply-To: <4C0E4FA7.14154.1680160@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 8, 10 02:11:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 8 Jun 2010 at 20:13, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The keyboard contains a microcotroller (8048 IIRC) which is reset by > > an RC network in the keybaord, it doesn't sue the system reset line. i > > suppose if the 5V line was risingtoo slowly, then the microcontroller > > may not initialise properly. > > If it's connected to an AT+ system said PC normally sends out a RESET > command to the keyboard. This is pretty much required as there are That is not the same thing at all. The serial command/data transfer to/from the system is bit-banged by the microcontroller, so the microcontroller must be running its firmware correctly to handle that RESET command. Yes there is such a command which initialises various parameters of the keyboard, but it's not what I was thinking of. I was thinking of the hardware reset to the microcontroller that causes it to run the firmware in the first place. The reset pin of the 8048 is connecvted to an RC network in the keyboard, not to the hardware reset signal in the host system (strangely, at least on XT machines, pin 3 of the DIN connector (labelled as 'reserverd') did carry the system reset line, but no IBM keyboard used it. I don't think it's connected at all in AT machines. If the microcontroller does not reset properly, then it will not be able to accept any commands from the host. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 15:01:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 21:01:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C0EB2B4.4050605@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 8, 10 10:14:28 pm Message-ID: > > I rememebr them saying it was better to store recharageble batteries in > > the discharged state (since they then couldn't self-discharge). There my > > be a battery technology where that's true, but most of the common ones > > are better stored charged. [...] > Not sure about NiMH or Nicad, it's been a while since I read the spec > sheets. NiCd certain;ly prefer to be kept charged. I don't know about NiMH, I've never used one. > > Second little hint : None of my cameras has a hard disk, or a CD-ROM > > drive, or... I am not going to post an inventory of my camera collection, but several of my cameras contain no electrical compoennts _at all_. And for many of the others, the only eelctrical part is a flash sync contact. > > Let's see what I've got in my kit box... > > Olympus OM10: Two SR44s, 35mm film. Have used it in some pretty rough > conditions. OT, very... The only Olympus SLRs I really care for are the PEN-F series (half frame and beautifully made). > Olympus Trip 35. Let my brother borrow this, he rewarded my generosity > by smashing the selenium cell. Now the metering is shot to buggery :( IIRC that;'s an ring-shamed cell around the lens, and is almost impossible to replace with anything else (for plain rectangular selenium cells you can often use a piece cut from a silicon solar cell, and fiddle ther resistors in the meter circuit). On the otehr hand, Olympus Trips are not hard to find (I've seen plenty in charity shops), and they're easy to work on ot make one good one from 2 dead ones. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 15:47:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 21:47:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest rescue... In-Reply-To: from "Mark Davidson" at Jun 8, 10 08:40:23 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, I found it on EBay, but I consider it a rescue. :) > > This is an HP 9836 Model 200, a machine I've been looking to find for > quite some time. It's a Motorola 68k-based workstation that was > targeted (I believe) at the scientific market. It runs a proprietary > OS and has several languages available for it. My next goal is to try > and generate diskettes for it, which is not going to be easy until I > finish getting my IBM PC set up for use at home. They are nice machines. I have 2 of them (a 9836A and a 9836CU) along with the closely-related 9826. And a couple of other machines in the range -- the 9816 (built into the monitor case) and the 9817 (a 'shoebox'). Anyway, back to the 9836. To get inside, there are 4 large screws on the underside. The top cover then lifts off. There's a motherboard flat in he bvottom of the case, which as well as connectors for the other boards, contains trhe HPIB, keyboard controller and some of the address decoder circuitry. Plugged into the motherboard are the expansion backplane (8 DIO slots), the CPU board, the floppy controller and the PSU regulator. There are 2 more PCBs under the left-hand disk drive which are the video display circuitry (the top board is for the graphics display, the lower board for the text display). Several CPU boards have been used in these machines. Most of them contain a 68000 CPU and some RAM (which is auto-addressed [1]. And the boot ROMs. If at all possible, get a machine with boot ROM 3.0 or later. Those can boot from any device (internal drives, HPIB drives, SRM network, even bubble mmemory (!)) whereas older versions of the ROM can only boot from the internal drive. I believe there is a boot disk (it's part of the SRM system) that allows older machines to boot from anything, though. And note that alas the later ROMs are larger than the older ones, so it's not simply a matter of getting the images and burning a couple of EPROMs to upgrade an older machine. [1] In these machines, RAM starts at the top of the address space and builds down. The expansion RAM cards have to be addressed by DIP switches. At part of the power-on self-test, the machine scans down throught the RAM. When it fails to get a DTACK/, then hardware on the CPU board automatically sets the address of the RAM on the CPU board to fit immediatately below all the RAM it's found. The latest CPU board contains no RAM, but it does have a 68010 processor and an MMU circuit. This is fitted to the -U machines (U == Unix, these machines can run HP-UX). If you have this board, you need at least one expansion RAM card. The floppy cotnroller uses a Western Digital IC. A couple of points. Firstly, there are spearate cables from each drive to the controller board. The drives have their MX jumpers fitted, so the outputs are always enabled. The controller monitors things like the WrProt signal from each drive to detect disk changes. The cable for drive 0 is soldered to the board, the one for drive 1 is plugged in. This is because the same cotnroller is used in most single-drive 9826s, whereupon the drive 1 cable is not fitted. There is a 256 byte sector buffer on the disk controller board. It's a pair of either 2112s or 2114s (with 2 address pins grounds). I mention this becvuase if you hve the latter RAM and have internal disk problems, you know where to look :-) (Yes, I did have this problem on my 9836CU). The power supply is quite friendly in some ways, but a paiu to test on dummy load. The basic design is that there's a transformer, a little PCB at the back containing the voltage selector switches and a rectifier (the TO3 can is a double diode, nothing more), and a smoothing capacitor. This gives about 30VDC to the regulator board which contains swithcing regulators to produce +5V, +12V and -12V. The problem comes in testing it. The regualtor board has 2 sets of edge figners. One plugs into a chassis-mounted connector carrying the DC input from the smoothing capacitor. The other plugs into the motherboard and carries the outputs. Now, since the mothrboard contains considerable circuitry, including a programmed 8041 microcontroller (for the keyboard interface), you don't want to use that as a dummy load. What I did was make up a test box. A die-cast box with a couple fo edge connectors on top, load resistors, lapms and voltage test sockets on all the outputs and a pair of input sockets to power it from my bench supply. Then I can just plug the PSU regualtor board in that and run it out of the machine. But hten I have 3 of these machines to maintain. It's probably too much work to do if you only have one. A few comments now on the 9826 in case anyone has one. It's very similar inside. Early models had a floppy controller that could only handle one drive and a lower-current PSU, but I have never seen these. Most of them have the same boards as are used in the 9836. The video system is very different, of course, (a monitor PCB -- which contains just the horizontal and video amplifier cirucits, the vertical circuit is on the text video PCB) mounted in the base of the machine in front of the motherboard, a text video PCB standing vertically behind the CRT and a graphics board on top of that, screwed to the top of the CRT cage. A word of warning. The CRT in the 9826 is _not_ rimbanded (the ones in all 9836s are). If you have to work on the CRT area of the machine, take great care, an impolosion is likely to be unpleasant. As for expansion, there are 8 DIO slots. These uise the same connectors as the S100 bus, but different signals (obviously) and smaller PCBs. The signals are essentially the 68K bus with a few extras. 4 of the slots can take boards with external connectors (interfaces, etc), the 4 between them can take things like RAM, ROM, bubble memory, DMA controller, etc. These machines have a built-in HPIB interface, but nothing else. I think an RS232 interface (HP98626 or even better HP98628, which is Z80-controller and does intenral buffering) is almost essential. An HP98622 GPIO card (16 bit parallel in and out) is useful too. There are many other interfaces and add-ons, inclduing ROM boards containing BASIC or HPL, more HPIB interfaces, and even a bubble memory board. > There's more information available at > http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=3 and I have a photo There's an HP serivce manual which is a boardswapper guide, but is probably worth reading. The only thing I really disafgree with in it (other than boardswapping :-)) is the procedure fro removing the CRT from a 9826. I find it a lot easier to remove the keyboard and then the bezele assembly, then put the latter face down on the bench, remove the CRT mounting band, and lift the CRT out. It takes alittle longer than the HP method, but it's much less likely to damage the CRT. There's also a set of unofficial schematics which may be useful if you have to fix the thing. You also want to read the manauls for the language you are using (probably HP BASIC 5.x). There are a lot of interesting features... On Bitsavers, you want to look at the _pascal_ system manuals. Some them cotnain a lot of low-level programming information. And the 'breadboard' interface manual which describes the DIO bus. As for software, be warned that he disk images on the Australian museum site are geernally for 3.5" disks. You can't dump them to 5.25" disks for the internal drives. If you have a HP9122 or similar (and boot ROM 3.0 or later) then there's no problem, you can boot from that and transfer the software to the interal drives later. Do watch the power-on tests. The error messages are not always taht clear, but they will pick up a lot of problems. If something eems 'not right' then you need to debug the hardware. Let me know if you need any help. I've done a bit with these machines. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 16:01:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 22:01:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Latest rescue... In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at Jun 9, 10 00:39:46 am Message-ID: > > Hey, I've got on of those! Except mine is 9826, with the built-in > small screen and single floppy. Not aware of any addtional three Yes, they are very similar. > digits to the number. I would be very interested to hear of your I suspect the model number has been somewhat mangled. The machine series is called the 'HP9000/200 series'. The machines are either '9826' and '9836' or 'HP9000/226' and 'HP9000/236' depending on whihc catalogue you beleive. > success in getting OS/program media for it. Mine turns on and lets me > type in BASIC programs, but it fails to boot off any of the disks it If it lets you type in BASIC, you have a ROM BASIC card, which is not at all standard. Most of these machines booted BASIC from a system disk. This ROM card will be in one of the 'hidden' slots at the back (remove the covers and interface boards to see what I mean). You can get disk images for various software from http://www.hpmusuem.net/ Be warned a lot of it is for 3.5" disks, you then need an HPIB 3.5" drive unit (HP9122, for example) and also a boot ROM version 3.0 or later. > came with. I have two rom carts in the back, I believe RS232 and Can you get a directory of the disks? Can yoy inintialise a blank floppy? It's possible you have drive or controller problems (which can be fixed). > HP-IB, which sounds pretty standard. An HPIB interface is standard (it's on the motherboard). A second HPIB interface (HP98624) in an expanison slot is not that common. An RS232 interface (which one?) is not standard, but it is common and very useful. Most of the RS232 interfaces have a 50 pin microribbon connector, carrying power lines (and sometimes RS422 signals) as well as the normal RS232 signals, it's easy to make a cable to the DB25 connecotr. The problem is finding the wirelist of the cable -- if you want ot do it, I'll finf which manual it's hidden in. > > > If anyone is interested in one, I can collect email addresses and send > > them to him. =A0I believe he is willing to let each one go for $25 plus > > shipping. > > This could be interesting. I wonder, does he have any spare monitors? > I know your model requires it, but I;m not sure if mine allows one. > Seems plenty flat on top to accommodate one. Alas you can't, The video circuitry is very different, and the 9826 doesn;t hcve the monitor conenctor (a DA15 socket) on the back anyway. If you want a large-monitor machine, you'd be better off buying a complete 9836 (especially at taht price!). You could move your interfaces, RAM, ROM BASIC, etc into it. Also, the monochome and colour mnnitors for the 9836 family can't be swapped over. The video PCBs are very different. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 16:10:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 22:10:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: from "Teo Zenios" at Jun 9, 10 04:00:00 am Message-ID: > Generally I do not eat or drink around my computers, I don't like food > particles in my keyboards (bad enough I have cats around with hairs that > need vacuumed). Doing that makes me take a break every so often to grab a This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away yesterday. So I will no longer get fur in my keyboards and will no longer had an orange xtrreak trying to trip me up when I'm carrying a CRT. I really miss him already :-( -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 9 16:30:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 14:30:32 -0700 Subject: IBM Model M2 keyboard error codes (LEDS) In-Reply-To: References: <4C0E4FA7.14154.1680160@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 8, 10 02:11:51 pm, Message-ID: <4C0FA588.16776.1135FF8@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2010 at 20:55, Tony Duell wrote: > That is not the same thing at all. The serial command/data transfer > to/from the system is bit-banged by the microcontroller, so the > microcontroller must be running its firmware correctly to handle that > RESET command. Yes there is such a command which initialises various > parameters of the keyboard, but it's not what I was thinking of. You miss my point--I was pointing out that on some keyboards, it may not be possible to determine if the KB firmware is operating correctly until a command has been sent to reset the keyboard. A keyboard sending an endless stream of wrong-parity NAK characters might not seem to be characteristic of a properly functioning keyboard. I ran into quite a few variations when I wrote the firmware for the PS/2/AT-to-XT translator. There was what IBM said--and then there was what everyone else did. --Chuck > > I was thinking of the hardware reset to the microcontroller that > causes it to run the firmware in the first place. The reset pin of the > 8048 is connecvted to an RC network in the keyboard, not to the > hardware reset signal in the host system (strangely, at least on XT > machines, pin 3 of the DIN connector (labelled as 'reserverd') did > carry the system reset line, but no IBM keyboard used it. I don't > think it's connected at all in AT machines. > > If the microcontroller does not reset properly, then it will not be > able to accept any commands from the host. > > -tony > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 16:49:29 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 22:49:29 +0100 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 10:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Generally I do not eat or drink around my computers, I don't like food >> particles in my keyboards (bad enough I have cats around with hairs that >> need vacuumed). Doing that makes me take a break every so often to grab a > > This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > yesterday. So I will no longer get fur in my keyboards and will no longer > had an orange xtrreak trying to trip me up when I'm carrying a CRT. I > really miss him already :-( Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, man. My sympathies. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Jun 9 16:54:51 2010 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 16:54:51 -0500 Subject: OT Marilyn Levine Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20100609164749.0ce5e400@localhost> Those who might know Len Levine, this was forwarded to me by Dave Rasmussen. >Hi Everyone: > >I regret to inform you that Marilyn Levine ( Len's wife) passed away >last saturday. She had been hospitalized for about a week. As you know, >both Len and Marilyn were associated with UWM for a long time. > >Best, >kv > >PS; Please share this with your friends you think may know Marilyn. I was a volunteer operator on the TSS/8 system at UWM from the summer before my fresheman year in 1978 until they replaced it with a Vax. Len spotted me in his intro comp sci class on the first day of my freshman year and grabbed my schedule, wrote a course number on it, signed it, and said, "You don't need to be here- go take the languages class." And the rest is history. I continued to interact with him in various ways for the next 15 years, well beyond my college days. I still hear from, or about, him. I owe a lot to him and I'm very sorry his life-long companion has been taken from him. -T ----- 524. [Commentary] Any sufficiently advanced political correctness is indistinguishable from sarcasm --Erik Naggum. Another corollary to Clarke's Law. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixcom.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 17:08:43 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 18:08:43 -0400 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: <4C0EA4EB.8070401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 15:50, Tony Duell wrote: > One > classic was the time they told me that my method of measuing something > (actually capitance) was a 'comparison' and not a 'measurement'. To this > day I am trying to find a defintion of 'measurement' that does not > involve comparison to a standard. Tongue _firmly_ planted in cheek, I could ask you to measure the average number of peas in a pod! :-) My own feeling is that actually here you missed to learn something in school that is vital. And that is an aspect of human interaction, or rather, interpreting unspoken demands. Clearly, a successful student would know what the teacher wants, and solve the problem in that fashion, rather than taking the literal meaning (and/or possibly more efficient solution) of the problem statement. Since the subject is Physics, I guess the idea would be to measure capacitance using "lower" units of measurements: Capacitance can be found using time, current, and voltage - and volt can be derived (with difficulty) using a standard length, mass and time. So, assume you have a calibrated ammeter, voltmeter, and clock, finding capacitance is easy! Never mind those calibrations were made by doing comparisons earlier. Is is the best or most efficient way to do it? Hell no! But it's what physics teachers want. This skill is very important but especially to an engineer, as anyone can tell having completed a task only to be told "that's not what I wanted!" ("But you asked me to do this!!" "But it's not what I wanted! Do it again!" ... followed later by "You're fired!") I'm sure many of us have been on both sides of this kind or exchange. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 9 17:29:20 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 15:29:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 9, 10 10:10:38 pm" Message-ID: <201006092229.o59MTK8c012930@floodgap.com> > > Generally I do not eat or drink around my computers, I don't like food > > particles in my keyboards (bad enough I have cats around with hairs that > > need vacuumed). Doing that makes me take a break every so often to grab a > > This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > yesterday. So I will no longer get fur in my keyboards and will no longer > had an orange xtrreak trying to trip me up when I'm carrying a CRT. I > really miss him already :-( I lost my cat of 18 years while I was in medical school. I know exactly what you mean. My sincerest condolences :-( -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- require "std_disclaimer.pl"; ----------------------------------------------- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 9 17:27:29 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 23:27:29 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: <4C0EA4EB.8070401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C101551.8070909@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/06/2010 23:08, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 15:50, Tony Duell wrote: >> One >> classic was the time they told me that my method of measuing something >> (actually capitance) was a 'comparison' and not a 'measurement'. To this >> day I am trying to find a defintion of 'measurement' that does not >> involve comparison to a standard. > > Tongue _firmly_ planted in cheek, I could ask you to measure the > average number of peas in a pod! :-) That would involve counting (and then in that particular case, calculating), not measurement, though. Counting is digital, measurement is analogue :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jun 9 17:31:47 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 00:31:47 +0200 Subject: RK05 unit stickers Message-ID: <4C101653.2050201@hachti.de> Hi folks, does anybody have a reasonable electronic form of the unit number stickers used on RK05 disk drives? I want to renumber some drives but don't have the numbers. So I decided to just print them onto labels and then add some glossy film. Will look quite original - if I have the right design. So if anybody has something useful that saves me some work, please answer! Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 9 17:47:05 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:47:05 -0700 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: <4C0EA4EB.8070401@philpem.me.uk>, , Message-ID: <4C0FB779.6300.1597716@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2010 at 18:08, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > My own feeling is that actually here you missed to learn something in > school that is vital. And that is an aspect of human interaction, or > rather, interpreting unspoken demands. Clearly, a successful student > would know what the teacher wants, and solve the problem in that > fashion, rather than taking the literal meaning (and/or possibly more > efficient solution) of the problem statement. The object of education is the method rather than the answer, which is generally the converse of what's encountered in the commercial world. I'm reminded of Alexander Calandra's story "Angels on a Pin": http://www.snopes.com/college/info/baromart.htm --Chuck (Would that we now had "Sputnik-panicked classrooms" in America!) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 9 17:48:12 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 15:48:12 -0700 Subject: OT Marilyn Levine In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100609164749.0ce5e400@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100609164749.0ce5e400@localhost> Message-ID: <4C101A2C.5040803@bitsavers.org> On 6/9/10 2:54 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > Those who might know Len Levine, this was forwarded to me by Dave > Rasmussen. > >> Hi Everyone: >> >> I regret to inform you that Marilyn Levine ( Len's wife) passed away >> last saturday. She had been hospitalized for about a week. As you know, >> both Len and Marilyn were associated with UWM for a long time. >> >> Best, >> kv >> >> PS; Please share this with your friends you think may know Marilyn. > > I was a volunteer operator on the TSS/8 system at UWM from the summer > before my fresheman year in 1978 until they replaced it with a Vax. Len > spotted me in his intro comp sci class on the first day of my freshman > year and grabbed my schedule, wrote a course number on it, signed it, > and said, "You don't need to be here- go take the languages class." And > the rest is history. I continued to interact with him in various ways > for the next 15 years, well beyond my college days. I still hear from, > or about, him. I owe a lot to him and I'm very sorry his life-long > companion has been taken from him. > Lenny and Marilyn have been close friends of mine for over 35 years. I was in Milwaukee last summer, and made sure I had lunch with both of them. Both were professors the the U, Len in EECS, and Marilyn in LIS. She had a long career in computerized reference research, and had one of the first independent research services ("The Look It Up Lady") in the late 70's, doing research queries onto the big timesharing data bases. In June, 1987, she was one of the founders of the Association of Independent Information Professionals http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ColRDd6pCaYJ:www.aiip.org/AboutAIIP+%22marilyn+levine%22+independent+research&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jun 9 18:12:12 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:12:12 +0200 Subject: Bitsavers upstream? In-Reply-To: <4BFBE037.3050606@bitsavers.org> References: <4BFB2BA8.1080702@hachti.de> <4BFB363C.2040708@bitsavers.org> <4BFB49D8.5070203@hachti.de> <4BFBE037.3050606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C101FCC.40205@hachti.de> Hi, > Since I have limited access to the machine that bitsavers is hosted on, > it would have to be somewhere else. I also don't have the cycles to > maintain > a bunch of individual accounts for uploaders. The handful of people who > send > me things generally just do it via email, but dealing with it in a timely > manner as well as checking the quality of submissions is problematic. Ok, I'll do that now. Will send you a personal email soon. Everybody else who wants to contribute should contact me. > I was thinking about the statistics this morning, and less than 1% of the > contents of bitsavers has come from external donations. That's quite impressive! > Of more use would be getting people involved who would like to help with > the > postprocessing backlog. I just checked, and there are roughly > 8000 documents that need to be cleaned up, page checked and pdf/OCRed Oh :-/ I'm currently completely busy (that means full time!) with rescuing, sorting, repairing, selling, trading, and playing with real stuff.... Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 9 19:23:19 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:23:19 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C103077.2030103@philpem.me.uk> On 09/06/10 21:01, Tony Duell wrote: > NiCd certain;ly prefer to be kept charged. I don't know about NiMH, I've > never used one. Most of the ones I've used were crap. Exception being the Sanyo Eneloop batteries -- which actually hold a decent charge for a useful amount of time. Energizer over-estimate their charge capacities (I've seen reports of between 10% and 40% depending on testing method), most of the cheap brands are just plain crap (Uniross especially, Gold Peak are sitting on the borderline)... I'm currently using digital camera batteries in a lot of my projects -- basically whatever's cheap at the camera shop (usually Canon NB4L or NB5L packs). 3.6V 700mAh in a package about the size of a matchbox... Care-and-feeding is a bit tricky, though Microchip and Benchmarq (erm.. TI) have released a couple of all-in-one Li-ion charger chips which cost less than ?1 in qty-1 (and about 75p in qty-10) and only need a couple of external capacitors (and an optional LED) to run. > OT, very... The only Olympus SLRs I really care for are the PEN-F series > (half frame and beautifully made). The Pen series were beautiful little cameras... I remember ogling one in the second-hand section of a local camera shop many moons ago :) > IIRC that;'s an ring-shamed cell around the lens, and is almost > impossible to replace with anything else Bingo. > On the otehr hand, > Olympus Trips are not hard to find (I've seen plenty in charity shops), > and they're easy to work on ot make one good one from 2 dead ones. Fully working ones go for ~?25 on "that auction site". Ones which need a little attention (usually new light seals) go for a bit less, and the light-seal kits are a few quid. Not a big deal, but I'd rather like to play with other kit first. I'd rather like to try medium format or possibly one of the Leica rangefinder cameras, but the initial cost is a bit steep. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 9 19:57:09 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 17:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C103077.2030103@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C103077.2030103@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100609175342.J38421@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > OT, very... The only Olympus SLRs I really care for are the PEN-F series > > (half frame and beautifully made). > The Pen series were beautiful little cameras... I remember ogling one in > the second-hand section of a local camera shop many moons ago :) Check out the "new" Olympus Pen series - 12MP, "Micro Four Thirds", and thin enough to be able to use pretty much all Leica lenses on them From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 9 21:02:24 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 03:02:24 +0100 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <20100609175342.J38421@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C103077.2030103@philpem.me.uk> <20100609175342.J38421@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C1047B0.2080402@philpem.me.uk> On 10/06/10 01:57, Fred Cisin wrote: >> The Pen series were beautiful little cameras... I remember ogling one in >> the second-hand section of a local camera shop many moons ago :) > > Check out the "new" Olympus Pen series - 12MP, "Micro Four Thirds", and > thin enough to be able to use pretty much all Leica lenses on them I've seen it -- the E-P1 and the E-PL1. Wasn't particularly impressed. Also: there are Leica lenses on the Micro-4/3rds mount? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 9 21:14:07 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 19:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C1047B0.2080402@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C103077.2030103@philpem.me.uk> <20100609175342.J38421@shell.lmi.net> <4C1047B0.2080402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100609190435.E38421@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've seen it -- the E-P1 and the E-PL1. Wasn't particularly impressed. I'm got a Panasonic G1 > Also: there are Leica lenses on the Micro-4/3rds mount? Yes, but expensive BUT, for $10 to $20 on eBay, you can get adapters for 39mm Leica screw mount, Leica M bayonet mount, or C-mount. The Leica R mount can also be adapted, but it has such a long register distance that it can be adapted to many other cameras as well. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 00:01:16 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 01:01:16 -0400 Subject: OT Marilyn Levine In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20100609164749.0ce5e400@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100609164749.0ce5e400@localhost> Message-ID: >> I regret to inform you that Marilyn Levine ( Len's wife) passed away >> last saturday. She had been hospitalized for about a week. As you know, >> both Len and Marilyn were associated with UWM for a long time. I am sorry to hear this - my condolences to the family. I like the term "Look It Up Lady". -- Will From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 10 01:13:21 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 23:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 Message-ID: Does anyone here know of a decent supply of 29c256 flash EEPROM chips or a drop-in replacement? I'm having a nasty time trying to source these for the P112 project. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 01:33:22 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 07:33:22 +0100 Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C108732.3000402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 10/06/2010 07:13, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here know of a decent supply of 29c256 flash EEPROM chips or > a drop-in replacement? I'm having a nasty time trying to source these > for the P112 project. Farnell have several 28c256 chips which are pin compatible. Cheers. Phill. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 10 02:04:19 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 00:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: <4C108732.3000402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4C108732.3000402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 10/06/2010 07:13, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Does anyone here know of a decent supply of 29c256 flash EEPROM chips or >> a drop-in replacement? I'm having a nasty time trying to source these >> for the P112 project. > > Farnell have several 28c256 chips which are pin compatible. Ugh! 9 pounds each? I need to buy around 90 of these. The P112 was designed with a 32-pin socket for the boot ROM, so a 29F010 (which I found for a good price) looks like it would work as long as pins 1 and 2 are grounded. I'm not quite sure yet. Now to find whatever old version of Protel Dave Brooks used. I should be able to make the change by directly modifying the gerbers, I guess. I'm going to go to bed tonight rather annoyed. Damn chips going out of production then the price goes sky-high. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 10 02:17:22 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 03:17:22 -0400 Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: References: <4C108732.3000402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C109182.3060507@neurotica.com> On 6/10/10 3:04 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>> Does anyone here know of a decent supply of 29c256 flash EEPROM chips or >>> a drop-in replacement? I'm having a nasty time trying to source these >>> for the P112 project. >> >> Farnell have several 28c256 chips which are pin compatible. > > Ugh! 9 pounds each? I need to buy around 90 of these. > > The P112 was designed with a 32-pin socket for the boot ROM, so a 29F010 > (which I found for a good price) looks like it would work as long as > pins 1 and 2 are grounded. I'm not quite sure yet. Now to find > whatever old version of Protel Dave Brooks used. I should be able to > make the change by directly modifying the gerbers, I guess. > > I'm going to go to bed tonight rather annoyed. Damn chips going out of > production then the price goes sky-high. There seem to be quite a few 28F256s on eBay, you might be able to get the required quantity there. One is listed as "more than 10 available"...I just bought some parts from that seller ("eedesigner"), he seems to have HUGE stocks of things. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From halarewich at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 02:58:59 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 00:58:59 -0700 Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: <4C109182.3060507@neurotica.com> References: <4C108732.3000402@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C109182.3060507@neurotica.com> Message-ID: heres an auction for six at $2.80 each http://cgi.ebay.ca/RC28F256J3-256MB-Intel-StrataFlash-Memory-Flash-28F256_W0QQitemZ200454203716QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_2?hash=item2eac006944 asof writing there is 43 here http://cgi.ebay.ca/28F256-32k-150ns-CMOS-Flash-Memory-DIP_W0QQitemZ200288778047QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea224373f On 6/10/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 6/10/10 3:04 AM, David Griffith wrote: > >>> Does anyone here know of a decent supply of 29c256 flash EEPROM chips > or > >>> a drop-in replacement? I'm having a nasty time trying to source these > >>> for the P112 project. > >> > >> Farnell have several 28c256 chips which are pin compatible. > > > > Ugh! 9 pounds each? I need to buy around 90 of these. > > > > The P112 was designed with a 32-pin socket for the boot ROM, so a 29F010 > > (which I found for a good price) looks like it would work as long as > > pins 1 and 2 are grounded. I'm not quite sure yet. Now to find > > whatever old version of Protel Dave Brooks used. I should be able to > > make the change by directly modifying the gerbers, I guess. > > > > I'm going to go to bed tonight rather annoyed. Damn chips going out of > > production then the price goes sky-high. > > There seem to be quite a few 28F256s on eBay, you might be able to get > the required quantity there. One is listed as "more than 10 > available"...I just bought some parts from that seller ("eedesigner"), > he seems to have HUGE stocks of things. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From rick at rickmurphy.net Wed Jun 9 18:04:13 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:04:13 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> At 10:50 AM 6/9/2010, Ben wrote: >What are the programs needed to program under OS/8 in assembler >using OS/8 as I/O for the assembler? What is the OS/8 handbook >that lists the OS/8 system calls for OS/8 use from assembler. >IS IT ONLINE as pdf? >Planing to write a few new programs for the 8, because we have the >technology. >Ben. The assembler, loader, etc. are all part of the standard OS/8 distribution. Documentation? You're probably looking for the OS/8 Software Support Manual. http://www.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/ has a bunch of useful OS/8 documents; see ssm.doc, for example. (These '.doc' files are text files.) -Rick From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 07:19:38 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 08:19:38 -0400 Subject: Looking for manual to a SD 20/24 PAL Programmer Message-ID: <4C10D85A.8080205@comcast.net> I found this at Breezeshooter's Hamfest last wknd in the Pittsburgh area. This is a PAL programmer made by Structured Design, SD 30/24 It even includes a Stringy Floppy cassette player, plus a spare cassette--I hope I can find these too. This is supposed to be a standalone programmer with just a serial port for console input and display. Would someone know where I can find a manual for this PAL Programmer ? I tried the usual websites, starting with bitsavers, but no luck so far. http://tinyurl.com/2fxwb26 thanks =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 07:52:28 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:52:28 +0100 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? Message-ID: This is not strictly on-topic, but I thought it might be of interest. I for one, and a lot of former Psion-owning acquaintances, have long bemoaned that there is no modern equivalent of the classic keyboard-driven PDA available today. Which is why I was rather interested by this device: http://digitalchunk.com/kddi-sharp-android-iso1-smartbook.htm -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From hachti at hachti.de Thu Jun 10 09:30:43 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:30:43 +0200 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> > The assembler, loader, etc. are all part of the standard OS/8 distribution. Don't forget the editor "EDIT" and - if you're crazy enough - TECO :-) > Documentation? You're probably looking for the OS/8 Software Support > Manual. > http://www.dbit.com/pub/pdp8/doc/ has > a bunch of useful OS/8 documents; see ssm.doc, for example. The OS/8 software support manual is helpful and needed. But perhaps "Introduction to programming" and the OS/8 handbook are better starting points to get used to the system? In general you can write PAL assembly using an editor. Then you can assemble, load, and execute it. Fairly easy. And if your program does a kind of clean exit (jump to 7600) and hasn't disturbed OS/8 system storage (a good first bet is to keep away from everything beyond any 7600) you even don't have to manually reboot after your program has finishes whatever it did. With FORTRAN IV it's the same. Not to mention basic... :-) Kind regards, Philipp :-) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 09:47:19 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:47:19 -0400 Subject: PS/2 model 77s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C10FAF7.5020003@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: > I have a bunch of IBM PS/2 model 77s here that are not long for this > world. If there is any serious interest, please let me know. If no > real interest, into the grinder they go! > > Please contact off list. > > I am in 10512. If you want me to ship, I need to have it worth my while. 8577 or 9577? Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 10 09:57:33 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 07:57:33 -0700 Subject: Asante EN/SC SCSI to Ethernet adapter Message-ID: I know these were made for early Mac's, I have used one on my Mac SE/30. In the years since I lost mine in storage I've seen information about using them on other classic hardware. ISTR that at a minimum people have used them on Atari TOS systems. I finally found mine last night while working some more on the garage. Does anyone know what non-Mac systems these can be used on? Now to find the powersupply, that's with the Ethertalk to Localtalk converter I no longer use, as I've switched to an HP Jetdirect box. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 10 11:21:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:21:58 -0700 Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C10AEB6.8390.2E0F52@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2010 at 23:13, David Griffith wrote: > Does anyone here know of a decent supply of 29c256 flash EEPROM chips > or a drop-in replacement? I'm having a nasty time trying to source > these for the P112 project. Any chance of using the 27F256 Flash chips? Futurlec sells them for USD$1.90 the each. Different programming algorithm (Vpp = +12), but compatible pinout on read. FWIW, Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jun 10 11:37:08 2010 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:37:08 -0500 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:33 -0500 6/10/10, Tony wrote: >This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away >yesterday. Here's to Pentina may his soul always have a warm monitor to rest on! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 10 12:01:19 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100610094706.K64644@shell.lmi.net> > At 1:33 -0500 6/10/10, Tony wrote: > >This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > >yesterday. On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Mark Tapley wrote: > Here's to Pentina > > may his soul always have a warm monitor to rest on! And/or a Model M. Keyboards are to cats as beaded seat cushions are to taxi drivers. The only right way to keep cats off of your keyboard is to give them one of their own. May he wear the green hat in Fuchal. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 10 12:02:29 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:02:29 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > In general you can write PAL assembly using an editor. Then you can > assemble, load, and execute it. Fairly easy. And if your program does a > kind of clean exit (jump to 7600) and hasn't disturbed OS/8 system > storage (a good first bet is to keep away from everything beyond any > 7600) you even don't have to manually reboot after your program has > finishes whatever it did. I got the doc's I need downloaded. I just have to figure how to print them under windows 2 pages per sheet. The other thing is I have to pick up a bunch of paper tomorrow so I can write out my program. With the 8 you just can't create programs on line. > With FORTRAN IV it's the same. Not to mention basic... :-) > > Kind regards, > > Philipp :-) > From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jun 10 12:11:26 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:11:26 -0700 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark Tapley > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 9:37 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Pentina > > At 1:33 -0500 6/10/10, Tony wrote: > >This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > >yesterday. > > Here's to Pentina > > > > may his soul always have a warm monitor to rest on! > My deepest sympathy.... -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jun 10 12:14:56 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:14:56 -0700 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ben > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 10:02 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details > > Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > > In general you can write PAL assembly using an editor. Then you can > > assemble, load, and execute it. Fairly easy. And if your program does > a > > kind of clean exit (jump to 7600) and hasn't disturbed OS/8 system > > storage (a good first bet is to keep away from everything beyond any > > 7600) you even don't have to manually reboot after your program has > > finishes whatever it did. > > I got the doc's I need downloaded. I just have to > figure how to print them under windows 2 pages per sheet. > The other thing is I have to pick up a bunch of paper tomorrow > so I can write out my program. With the 8 you just can't create > programs on line. > One trick I've used successfully a couple of times for relatively short programs: edit and build on Simh, then either thumb in from the listing or "punch" to a paper tape image, which you can then transfer to the -8 through the serial line. Keep in mind that while 7E1 is expected for a user session, "punching" should be done 8N1 -- Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 10 12:31:43 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 10:31:43 -0700 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C11217F.3070603@brouhaha.com> Ben wrote: > With the 8 you just can't create programs on line. I think that will be news to the thousands of programmers that did exactly that. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 12:32:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:32:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jun 9, 10 10:49:29 pm Message-ID: > > This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > > yesterday. So I will no longer get fur in my keyboards and will no longer > > had an orange xtrreak trying to trip me up when I'm carrying a CRT. I > > really miss him already :-( > > Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, man. My sympathies. Thank you. He was a great companion to me as I was fixing classic computers. Unforutnately, towards the end of last week he had difficulty swallowing. We took him to a vet (as I mentioned some months back, a cat is about the only thing I wouldn;'t try to repair myself), and he discovered he had serious cancer in his mouth. He couldn't breate properly, and the vet said there was nothing that could be done to help him. I am seriously considering giving a home ot another cat sometime. Not to replace Pentina, you can't replace a cat. But a different friend to sit on my service manuals, shed hairs in my disk drives, try to trip me up, and so on. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 10 12:47:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:47:48 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C112544.2000304@neurotica.com> On 6/10/10 1:32 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away >>> yesterday. So I will no longer get fur in my keyboards and will no longer >>> had an orange xtrreak trying to trip me up when I'm carrying a CRT. I >>> really miss him already :-( >> >> Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, man. My sympathies. > > Thank you. He was a great companion to me as I was fixing classic computers. > > Unforutnately, towards the end of last week he had difficulty swallowing. > We took him to a vet (as I mentioned some months back, a cat is about the > only thing I wouldn;'t try to repair myself), and he discovered he had > serious cancer in his mouth. He couldn't breate properly, and the vet > said there was nothing that could be done to help him. :-( R.I.P. Pentina. > I am seriously considering giving a home ot another cat sometime. Not to > replace Pentina, you can't replace a cat. But a different friend to sit > on my service manuals, shed hairs in my disk drives, try to trip me up, > and so on. It's a good thing; kitties need good homes. It's true that Pentina can never be replaced per se, but a different kitty can provide a different kind of company while being given a much-needed home. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 12:44:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:44:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Jun 9, 10 06:08:43 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 15:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > One > > classic was the time they told me that my method of measuing something > > (actually capitance) was a 'comparison' and not a 'measurement'. To this > > day I am trying to find a defintion of 'measurement' that does not > > involve comparison to a standard. > > Tongue _firmly_ planted in cheek, I could ask you to measure the > average number of peas in a pod! :-) Sure. My standard of measurement is the 'unit' -- that is a set of one object. And I could claim that was 'counting' not measuring. > > My own feeling is that actually here you missed to learn something in > school that is vital. And that is an aspect of human interaction, or > rather, interpreting unspoken demands. Clearly, a successful student > would know what the teacher wants, and solve the problem in that I hate to say this, but my aim was to learn (real) physics. Not some pretend version that the teacher wanted me to learn. > fashion, rather than taking the literal meaning (and/or possibly more > efficient solution) of the problem statement. Since the subject is > Physics, I guess the idea would be to measure capacitance using > "lower" units of measurements: Capacitance can be found using time, > current, and voltage - and volt can be derived (with difficulty) using > a standard length, mass and time. So, assume you have a calibrated Actaully, you need one electrical base unit too. In the SI system, it's the 'ampere' (which I have always thoguth was stupid, I regard the coulomb as being more fundamental, being essentailly the charage on a large number of electronics, not a rate of flow). But anyway... Every book I've looked in gives the bridge circuit (which is of course what I described) as a method of measuring cpaacitance (and resistance, and inducatance for that matter). Fredrick Terman's [1] book 'Measurements in Radio Engineering' starts off with 'MKeasurement of circuit constants at low frequencies' and describes all sorts of bridges. Several other books point out that in general comparison to a standard of the same time as the qunaitity being measured provide the most accurate measurements. [1] I assume every body knows who he was. No?. He was (IIRC) associate professor of electrical engineering at Stanford in the 1930s. He had a student who did an MSc project making a new type of audio oscillator using a Wein bridge (RC) network an an amplifier whose gain was controlled by a filamanet lamp in the feedback path. The name of that student? William Hewlett [2]. [2] And what do you think the HP Mdoel 200 audio oscillator is?. > ammeter, voltmeter, and clock, finding capacitance is easy! Never This actually brings up an interesting question to which I don't know the answer. Given the SI standards -- that is a copy of the prototype kilogram, a current balance to determine the ampere, the appropriate atomic clock, and whatever the length standard now is, how do you determine capacitance? Waht I do know is that the method this teacher was expecting is not the answer, That method (based on a vibrating reed contact) has so many systematic errors as to be totally useless. > mind those calibrations were made by doing comparisons earlier. Is is > the best or most efficient way to do it? Hell no! But it's what > physics teachers want. As I said just now, I was there to learn physics. Not play games second-guessing the teacher. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 12:45:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:45:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <201006092229.o59MTK8c012930@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 9, 10 03:29:20 pm Message-ID: > > This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > > yesterday. So I will no longer get fur in my keyboards and will no longer > > had an orange xtrreak trying to trip me up when I'm carrying a CRT. I > > really miss him already :-( > > I lost my cat of 18 years while I was in medical school. I know exactly > what you mean. My sincerest condolences :-( Thank you. I have already given some details in another reply, so I won't mention them again here. I do miss him, though :-( -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 10 12:50:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:50:21 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> On 6/10/10 1:02 PM, Ben wrote: > I got the doc's I need downloaded. I just have to > figure how to print them under windows 2 pages per sheet. > The other thing is I have to pick up a bunch of paper tomorrow > so I can write out my program. With the 8 you just can't create > programs on line. You can't? That's news to me, having done so. Back to do the docs! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 10 12:51:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:51:16 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C11217F.3070603@brouhaha.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C11217F.3070603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C112614.9060805@neurotica.com> On 6/10/10 1:31 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Ben wrote: >> With the 8 you just can't create programs on line. > I think that will be news to the thousands of programmers that did > exactly that. Yeah really. WTF? -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 12:48:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:48:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C0FB779.6300.1597716@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 9, 10 03:47:05 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Jun 2010 at 18:08, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > > My own feeling is that actually here you missed to learn something in > > school that is vital. And that is an aspect of human interaction, or > > rather, interpreting unspoken demands. Clearly, a successful student > > would know what the teacher wants, and solve the problem in that > > fashion, rather than taking the literal meaning (and/or possibly more > > efficient solution) of the problem statement. > > The object of education is the method rather than the answer, which > is generally the converse of what's encountered in the commercial > world. I would agree. (Heck, if I want to measure a capacitor in my workshop, I generally jsut use my multimeter...) However, which is the better student? The person who goes and reads several extra books, finds out an accurate method of measuring something that is actually used in the real world, and who ecplains how it works (which iw what I did), or the person who regurgitates the section from the recomended text book describing a method which is totally useless? -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 10 12:54:29 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:54:29 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/10/10 1:02 PM, Ben wrote: >> I got the doc's I need downloaded. I just have to >> figure how to print them under windows 2 pages per sheet. >> The other thing is I have to pick up a bunch of paper tomorrow >> so I can write out my program. With the 8 you just can't create >> programs on line. > > You can't? That's news to me, having done so. Back to do the docs! Well I am one of the people that need to write a program down on paper, rather than compose it on line, using a line editor. > -Dave > That reminds me I, have to set the TTY to do ^H Space ^H later today rather than \?\ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 13:00:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:00:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <4C103077.2030103@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 10, 10 01:23:19 am Message-ID: > I'm currently using digital camera batteries in a lot of my projects --=20 Frotunately most of my projects don't have to e portable, I either build in a mains supply, or just run them off my bench supply I find rechargeable batteries to be a pain in gneeral. Unless it's something I'm using all the time, the self-discharge means they're genrally pretty flat when I want to use the device. And then I have to want for a considerable time for them to recharge. For stuff I don't have to carry around I prefer to plug it into the mains. > > OT, very... The only Olympus SLRs I really care for are the PEN-F serie= > s > > (half frame and beautifully made). > > The Pen series were beautiful little cameras... I remember ogling one in=20 > the second-hand section of a local camera shop many moons ago :) I have a Pen-FT. It needs a little work, but I will do that sometime. They are not hard to work on (one thing I have discovered when it comes to repairing cameras is that the mroe expensive cameeras have more parts, but they are better made and actually easier to work on. I would much rather repair a Leica than a Kodak.). One thing about the Pen F series is that they;re half-frame with a vertically-hinged mirror. The lens mount-to-film distnace is thus a lot thinner than any full-frme SLR. This means you could get adapters to use just about any normal SLR lenses on them (and focus to infinity). I have the M42 screw adapter (I think it cost me more than the camera...), which has expanded the range of lenses I can use enormously. > > On the otehr hand, > > Olympus Trips are not hard to find (I've seen plenty in charity shops), > > and they're easy to work on ot make one good one from 2 dead ones. > > Fully working ones go for ~=A325 on "that auction site". Ones which need = > a=20 And for a lot less in charity chops. And they really are easy to take apart and rebuild.. > little attention (usually new light seals) go for a bit less, and the=20 > light-seal kits are a few quid. Not a big deal, but I'd rather like to=20 > play with other kit first. I'd rather like to try medium format or=20 I ratehr skipped medium format and went ot large format. It's a lot slower to use of course, but the results are spectacular. A reasonable 5*4 camera and enlarger will cost less than a good digital set-up, and I know which I'd rather use _for the sort of photography I am interested in_. > possibly one of the Leica rangefinder cameras, but the initial cost is a=20 > bit steep. You are going to kill me... Some years ago I bought a jammed Leica III (pre-war, screw mount, of course) in a camera shop for a bargain price. That night, I partially stripped it, extraced the second curtain latch, cleaned it, put one drop of watch oil in the right place, and it's been fine ever sinxe. I need to strip the slow-speed escapement sometime, but it's not urgent -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 10 13:05:51 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:05:51 +0100 Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C11297F.9080808@philpem.me.uk> On 10/06/10 18:32, Tony Duell wrote: > Unforutnately, towards the end of last week he had difficulty swallowing. > We took him to a vet (as I mentioned some months back, a cat is about the > only thing I wouldn;'t try to repair myself), and he discovered he had > serious cancer in his mouth. He couldn't breate properly, and the vet > said there was nothing that could be done to help him. :-( It's hard losing any pet... speaking as someone who's had lost several over the years... > I am seriously considering giving a home ot another cat sometime. Not to > replace Pentina, you can't replace a cat. But a different friend to sit > on my service manuals, shed hairs in my disk drives, try to trip me up, > and so on. I prefer the kind that are perfectly content to sit on your knee, purring away. Though dogs have their own redeeming qualities... :) We've got a chinchilla like that -- Millie. She hates coming out of the cage, but once she's out, she's more than happy to cuddle up and go to sleep. The other five (yes, *five*) are hyperactive, skittish.. and generally won't sit still unless bribed to the point of excess. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 10 13:15:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:15:27 -0700 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: <4C0FB779.6300.1597716@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 9, 10 03:47:05 pm, Message-ID: <4C10C94F.7848.95F392@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2010 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > However, which is the better student? The person who goes and reads > several extra books, finds out an accurate method of measuring > something that is actually used in the real world, and who ecplains > how it works (which iw what I did), or the person who regurgitates the > section from the recomended text book describing a method which is > totally useless? You oversimplify, I think. The object of education (I hope) is to create a depth of understanding. Anybody can use superposition, mesh currents, Thevenin and Norton equivalents and any other of the "bag of tricks" for circuit analysis, but how many can take the same circuit and solve using Maxwell's equations? Who has the deeper understanding? Of course, no one in their right mind would use Maxwell's equations for DC circuit analysis on an everyday basis. Mathematics is usually taught to engineers on a "cookbook" basis for the very good reason that there simply is not enough time to cover a particular topic in depth. A mathematics major in school can spend an entire semester covering the same topic that's taught in two weeks in an engineering math course. The answers obtained when a problem is solved will be identical, but the math major hopefully will have a deeper understanding of the solution and be able to build on it. There's something to be said for the necessity of both approaches. How many people who use a computer actually understand what's going on internally? Very few, I'm sure. Does that mean that all the training that's required is how to work Excel or Word and a browser and that computer science education is a waste of time? --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 13:11:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:11:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Jun 10, 10 11:37:08 am Message-ID: > > At 1:33 -0500 6/10/10, Tony wrote: > >This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > >yesterday. > > Here's to Pentina > > > > may his soul always have a warm monitor to rest on! Thank you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 13:13:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:13:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <20100610094706.K64644@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 10, 10 10:01:19 am Message-ID: > > > At 1:33 -0500 6/10/10, Tony wrote: > > >This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > > >yesterday. > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Mark Tapley wrote: > > Here's to Pentina > > > > may his soul always have a warm monitor to rest on! > > And/or a Model M. Keyboards are to cats as beaded seat cushions are to > taxi drivers. The only right way to keep cats off of your keyboard is to > give them one of their own. Oh, Pentinal liked curling up on service manuals, particuarly HP ones (I have no idea why) -- and especially if I needed the manual tofix soemthing. Of course he ruled the house (he was a _cat_) so several times I had to hold up my hacking until he moved. And I was never cross with him becuase of this, He was a true hacking companion. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 13:14:22 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:14:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Jun 10, 10 10:11:26 am Message-ID: > > >This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > > >yesterday. [...] > My deepest sympathy.... -- Ian=20 Thank you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 13:16:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:16:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C112544.2000304@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 10, 10 01:47:48 pm Message-ID: > > I am seriously considering giving a home ot another cat sometime. Not to > > replace Pentina, you can't replace a cat. But a different friend to sit > > on my service manuals, shed hairs in my disk drives, try to trip me up, > > and so on. > > It's a good thing; kitties need good homes. It's true that Pentina > can never be replaced per se, but a different kitty can provide a > different kind of company while being given a much-needed home. Indeed. A know another cat will have different behaviour, but that doesn;'t bother me. I love cats (no, not in any immoral sense, OK :-)). And yes, I plan on giving a home to a 'rescue cat',. They need loving homes -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 10 13:21:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:21:56 -0700 Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: <4C11297F.9080808@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4C11297F.9080808@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C10CAD4.2541.9BE2FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2010 at 19:05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > It's hard losing any pet... speaking as someone who's had lost several > over the years... We've had cats or dogs pretty much continuosly over the years and never one at a time. In my experience, the best remedy is to jump right in again and make a home for a new visitor right away. Two years ago, we lost three dogs in the space of a single year. If we had not adopted new members of the pack during that time, enduring the losses would have been much harder. FWIW, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 10 13:22:10 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:22:10 +0100 Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C112D52.6030402@philpem.me.uk> This thread is really going off the rails, isn't it? And to think it started by me asking if anyone was going to VCF! On 10/06/10 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > I find rechargeable batteries to be a pain in gneeral. Unless it's > something I'm using all the time, the self-discharge means they're > genrally pretty flat when I want to use the device. And then I have to > want for a considerable time for them to recharge. For stuff I don't have > to carry around I prefer to plug it into the mains. Self-discharge isn't really a problem with Li-(ion,polymer) and the "hybrid" NiMH technologies (e.g. Eneloop). Generally speaking I get more use out of my box of Eneloop batteries even though they have a lower rated capacity than a similar set of Energizer NiMHs. Being able to pull the flashgun out of the camera bag, switch it on and be almost certain it's going to work really does count for A LOT... > They are not hard to work on (one thing I have discovered when it comes > to repairing cameras is that the mroe expensive cameeras have more parts, > but they are better made and actually easier to work on. I would much > rather repair a Leica than a Kodak.). I've done rebuild work on cheap digital compact cameras. I bought a couple of dead ones on ebay for something like ?2 all told (the post was more than the cameras) and ended up making a couple of working cameras out of the bits. They're pretty dire quality (not even up to the standard of my Canon A710iS compact, and that's pretty ropey) but good for tests which may go Badly Wrong, and where you don't want to risk an expensive camera... Or where you just want to build a stereo camera for as little money as possible... Ahem. > And for a lot less in charity chops. And they really are easy to take > apart and rebuild.. I must be looking in the wrong charity shops. The ones around here won't take anything other than clothing and books, if it takes a battery or has a mains lead then it's banned. > You are going to kill me... Some years ago I bought a jammed Leica III > (pre-war, screw mount, of course) in a camera shop for a bargain price. > That night, I partially stripped it, extraced the second curtain latch, > cleaned it, put one drop of watch oil in the right place, and it's been > fine ever sinxe. I need to strip the slow-speed escapement sometime, but > it's not urgent Nicely done. Most of the OM-series stuff is just as easily repairable -- 95% of the time it's the light seals that go (they're easily replaced) but when something jams, you usually only have to clean out the (small amount of) grease, relubricate the parts and put it back together again. Some cameras really are evil, though. I had a 35mm compact a few years ago (the typical all-plastic POS), which had some "issues". The worst of which was a rewind button that almost never engaged properly -- it would look like it had gone in, but in reality had only enabled the winding crank and hadn't disengaged the take-up spool. Couple that with a REALLY stiff winding crank... That camera jammed quite a few rolls of film, either by breaking the trailer off of the spool, or by snapping the film into two separate pieces. Evil little thing. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 13:23:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:23:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: <4C11297F.9080808@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 10, 10 07:05:51 pm Message-ID: Pets -- and not he Commodore flavour :-) > > I am seriously considering giving a home ot another cat sometime. Not to > > replace Pentina, you can't replace a cat. But a different friend to sit > > on my service manuals, shed hairs in my disk drives, try to trip me up, > > and so on. > > I prefer the kind that are perfectly content to sit on your knee, > purring away. Though dogs have their own redeeming qualities... :) Oh IO am very much a 'cat' person. I don't think I would want any other animal as a companion. The unpredictability of cats is their charm to me. I want something that is going to sit on my schemaitcs, decide that the spidle I dropped is an ideal toy to bat around the floor, leap onto my workbench when I am handling tiny screws and so on. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 10 13:27:55 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:27:55 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> On 6/10/10 1:54 PM, Ben wrote: >>> I got the doc's I need downloaded. I just have to >>> figure how to print them under windows 2 pages per sheet. >>> The other thing is I have to pick up a bunch of paper tomorrow >>> so I can write out my program. With the 8 you just can't create >>> programs on line. >> >> You can't? That's news to me, having done so. Back to do the docs! > > Well I am one of the people that need to write a program down > on paper, rather than compose it on line, using a line editor. You must write some pretty short programs. Many of mine would take reams of paper. But, well, not on the PDP-8 I suppose. > That reminds me I, have to set the TTY to do ^H Space ^H later today > rather than \?\ .SET TTY SCOPE -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 10 13:27:12 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:27:12 -0600 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C112E80.3000104@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Indeed. A know another cat will have different behaviour, but that > doesn;'t bother me. I love cats (no, not in any immoral sense, OK :-)). > > And yes, I plan on giving a home to a 'rescue cat',. They need loving > homes But can you get her/him computer trained? :) > -tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 10 13:32:11 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> > >>> so I can write out my program. With the 8 you just can't create > >>> programs on line. > >> You can't? That's news to me, having done so. Back to do the docs! There are many things that you can do IFF you are unaware that they can't be done. The Wile E. Coyote principle of software development. Fortunately, I had already created my white on black font BEFORE HP told me that it was impossible. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 13:36:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:36:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <4C10C94F.7848.95F392@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 10, 10 11:15:27 am Message-ID: > > On 10 Jun 2010 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > > However, which is the better student? The person who goes and reads > > several extra books, finds out an accurate method of measuring > > something that is actually used in the real world, and who ecplains > > how it works (which iw what I did), or the person who regurgitates the > > section from the recomended text book describing a method which is > > totally useless? > > You oversimplify, I think. The object of education (I hope) is to > create a depth of understanding. Anybody can use superposition, mesh Indeed it is. And I don't feel there's any understanding from just regurgitating a text book. There is considerably more in explaining how a bridge circuit actually works. If the original teacher had asked for a method of measuring capacitance with only standards of current, length, time, etc being available then that would be a different question with a diffeent answer. But to simply ask for a method of measuring capacitance and then claiming a comparison is not a measurement simply reinforced my view that _every_ maths and physcis teahcer I ever had was clueless. > currents, Thevenin and Norton equivalents and any other of the "bag > of tricks" for circuit analysis, but how many can take the same > circuit and solve using Maxwell's equations? Who has the deeper > understanding? I don't beelive you can analyse most circuits using Maxwell's equations alone. For one thing, I don't see how to handle resistance without some other assumptions. Suppose you asked me to explain how a PDP11/45 CPU worked. I would take as my 'building blocks' things like AND gates, flip-flops, etc, and describe, in terms of those the data path, the microcode sequencer, the fork logic, and so on, And then explain the microprogram. But if you asked me how a 7400 worked, I would expalin the components in the schematic in the TTL data book, I would assumea transistor is a transistor, and explain the circuit based on that And if youy asked me how a transiotor worked, I would have to do some serious reading of solid state physics. But I don't think anyone, at any level, would try to explain the operation of a PDP11/45 in terms of solid state physics. > Mathematics is usually taught to engineers on a "cookbook" basis for > the very good reason that there simply is not enough time to cover a > particular topic in depth. A mathematics major in school can spend When I was at school doing A levels, the subject I really hated was applied maths' (motion of bodies under various forces, projectile motion, etc). The reason is that it was so _fake_. There wrre so many unjustified approximations that it is useless in the real world. It was just a game to get you to solve equations. > an entire semester covering the same topic that's taught in two weeks > in an engineering math course. The answers obtained when a problem > is solved will be identical, but the math major hopefully will have a > deeper understanding of the solution and be able to build on it. Sure, but the mathematician may not see how it applies to the real world. That is not necessareily a bad thing, we need all types of approach in the world. > There's something to be said for the necessity of both approaches. True > > How many people who use a computer actually understand what's going > on internally? Very few, I'm sure. Does that mean that all the Probably an above-average proportion on this list :-) > training that's required is how to work Excel or Word and a browser > and that computer science education is a waste of time? Alas computer education in schools now does seem to be just how to use M$ products. Which is not IMHO education at all. FWIW, but the current UK standards I am classed as computer-illiterate, amazingly (I do not know how to use Word, I do know how to use LaTeX, but that doesn't count/ I don't know how to use Excel, I dod understnad (to a limited extent) things like covergance rates, rounding errors etc. That doesn't count either). -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 10 13:38:18 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:38:18 +0200 Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <526e214df06872ef173caeeb843642e5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Tony, That seems to be a common practice for IT people ;) (to have a cat or two), I always have had (and still have 1 (and maybe soon 2) cats. When I'm at my computer she comes meowing around and jumps on my lap when I'm reading email, playing around with simh, looking at weird Youtube vids (what a load of junk is there, but that's quite OT). She first starts to moving around trying to find the 'best' sitting spot, and when done the nails come out..... Ohhh the pain, the pain (as Dr. Smith would say). Anyway one can either like them or hate them. I just like cats. Ed > > Pets -- and not he Commodore flavour :-) >> > I am seriously considering giving a home ot another cat sometime. Not >> to >> > replace Pentina, you can't replace a cat. But a different friend to >> sit >> > on my service manuals, shed hairs in my disk drives, try to trip me >> up, >> > and so on. >> >> I prefer the kind that are perfectly content to sit on your knee, >> purring away. Though dogs have their own redeeming qualities... :) > > Oh IO am very much a 'cat' person. I don't think I would want any other > animal as a companion. The unpredictability of cats is their charm to me. > I want something that is going to sit on my schemaitcs, decide that the > spidle I dropped is an ideal toy to bat around the floor, leap onto my > workbench when I am handling tiny screws and so on. > > -tony > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 10 13:41:30 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:41:30 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C1131DA.6010808@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > There are many things that you can do IFF you are unaware that they can't > be done. The Wile E. Coyote principle of software development. I use that principle for my audio amps ... * Poof *, cough cough ... " Back to the drawing board " How ever with tube audio, the parts vary so much much of your work is trial and error. Sure it works but does it fit on the chassis? > > Fortunately, I had already created my white on black font BEFORE HP told > me that it was impossible. > To dream the imposible dream, to right the unrightable ... Ben. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 13:42:36 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:42:36 -0400 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: References: <4C10C94F.7848.95F392@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/10/10, Tony Duell wrote: > When I was at school doing A levels, the subject I really hated was > applied maths' (motion of bodies under various forces, projectile > motion, etc). The reason is that it was so _fake_. There wrre so many > unjustified approximations that it is useless in the real world. It was > just a game to get you to solve equations. "Assume you have a bulldozer of negligible mass" or "I have a solution, but it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum" etc., etc. -ethan From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 10 13:53:38 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:53:38 -0400 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:13:32 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: >Oh, Pentinal liked curling up on service manuals, particuarly HP ones (I >have no idea why) -- and especially if I needed the manual tofix >soemthing. Of course he ruled the house (he was a _cat_) so several times >I had to hold up my hacking until he moved. Dogs may have owners, but Cats have staff, as it should be :) The other Bob From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 14:05:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:05:34 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C1131DA.6010808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> <4C1131DA.6010808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > How ever with tube audio, the parts vary so much much of your work > is trial and error. Stop buying shit parts. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 10 14:19:08 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:19:08 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> <4C1131DA.6010808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C113AAC.2050802@neurotica.com> On 6/10/10 3:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> How ever with tube audio, the parts vary so much much of your work >> is trial and error. > > Stop buying shit parts. Yeah really. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 10 14:18:41 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:18:41 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details - OT In-Reply-To: References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> <4C1131DA.6010808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C113A91.3060902@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >> How ever with tube audio, the parts vary so much much of your work >> is trial and error. > > Stop buying shit parts. Ok. Name a transformer supplier , that is quality, and has the transformers I need as standard in stock items. 125 V, 40 ma 500V CT and 12H 40 ma chokes? > -- > Will > Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 10 14:20:27 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:20:27 -0600 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C113AFB.3090000@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Bradlee wrote: > Dogs may have owners, but Cats have staff, as it should be :) I thought that was for British Cats. > The other Bob > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 10 14:20:30 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:20:30 +0100 Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: <526e214df06872ef173caeeb843642e5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <526e214df06872ef173caeeb843642e5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C113AFE.8060402@philpem.me.uk> On 10/06/10 19:38, E. Groenenberg wrote: > That seems to be a common practice for IT people ;) (to have a cat or two), > I always have had (and still have 1 (and maybe soon 2) cats. Wasn't there something on BBC News about cat owners being statistically more likely to have a university degree than dog owners? Ah, here we go: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8501042.stm > She first starts to moving around trying to find the 'best' sitting spot, > and when done the nails come out..... Ohhh the pain, the pain (as Dr. Smith > would say). "Ohhhh, the humanity!" :-) Yeah, getting clawed by Ze Cat is one of the downsides. My aunt had a really nice black (or really dark brown, not sure) long-haired cat called "Momom" (where she got that name I don't know). It'd wait for you to sit down, then meow at you until you lifted it onto the seat beside you. Then it shuffled up and laid half-on your leg and started purring. If you tried to move it off you or stand up? You got the claws... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 14:21:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:21:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: <4C112D52.6030402@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 10, 10 07:22:10 pm Message-ID: > > This thread is really going off the rails, isn't it? And to think it=20 > started by me asking if anyone was going to VCF! That tread went off the rails (power rails?) weeks ago :-) > > They are not hard to work on (one thing I have discovered when it comes > > to repairing cameras is that the mroe expensive cameeras have more part= > s, > > but they are better made and actually easier to work on. I would much > > rather repair a Leica than a Kodak.). > > I've done rebuild work on cheap digital compact cameras. I bought a=20 Hmmm.. The only digital camera [1] I've seen inside seemed to contain a BGA packaged chip, another PQFP chip and some bits for the flash circuit. And the lense/CCD unit, of course. It didn't look very very repairable. [1] Actually that's not true. I have a Datacopy 300 digital camera here. This thing dates fro mteh mid 1980s, and has a linear CCD which is tracked across the image using a leadscrew. Inside are half a dozen small PCBs cotnaining TTL, op-amps, a parallel multiplier chip (to do a gain correction for each pixel in the CCD, there's an EPROM of gain values too) and so on. It connects to a PERQ workstation (yes I have the interface board). > Or where you just want to build a stereo camera for as little money as=20 > possible... Ahem. Finding either the sterao brackets for the Werra (I several of those interesting cameras) or one of the bewm-splitter type of lenese for one of my 35mm cameras is something I dream of doing one day... > > > And for a lot less in charity chops. And they really are easy to take > > apart and rebuild.. > > I must be looking in the wrong charity shops. The ones around here won't=20 > take anything other than clothing and books, if it takes a battery or=20 > has a mains lead then it's banned. Mains stuff, sure (due to stupid regulations), but I've never seen a charity shop that rejects battery-powered devices. And anyway, I wasn't aware that the Olympus Trip used a battery. I have bought a fair number of cameras in charity shops, from better-grade 110 film ones (Kodak Pocket Instamatic 50, which has a focusable lense, Pentax auto 110) through to SLRs. It's worth looking at the books too. I've found several classic-computer books (for subjects like PDP11 assembly language) in charity shops over here > Most of the OM-series stuff is just as easily repairable -- 95% of the=20 The OM1, sure (it's mechancially timed IIRC), but I wouldn't want to have to fix the elctronics in an OM10 or similar. > time it's the light seals that go (they're easily replaced) but when=20 > something jams, you usually only have to clean out the (small amount of)=20 > grease, relubricate the parts and put it back together again. IIRC, the winding clutch in the OM series is a weak point... > > Some cameras really are evil, though. I had a 35mm compact a few years=20 > ago (the typical all-plastic POS), which had some "issues". The worst of=20 You have clearly never had to work on Eumig cine cameras. Suffice it to say that the number of operations needed to extract the mechanism from the case is excessive. Give me a Bolex any day... -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 10 14:34:45 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:13:32 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > >> Oh, Pentinal liked curling up on service manuals, particuarly HP ones (I >> have no idea why) -- and especially if I needed the manual tofix >> soemthing. Of course he ruled the house (he was a _cat_) so several times >> I had to hold up my hacking until he moved. > > Dogs may have owners, but Cats have staff, as it should be :) > Most definately(sp). Cats have spent tens of thousands of years to train us to be proper slaves. They caused us to develop all of this high technology in order to make their lives easier. CRTs are highly evolved belly warmers that just happen to show us things that keep us out of trouble while the Cat rests. Dogs of course caused LCD panels to be created. The bastards. I still miss Pilot. She was 24 when I lost her. Condolences my friend. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 10 14:37:12 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:37:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: <4C113AFE.8060402@philpem.me.uk> References: <526e214df06872ef173caeeb843642e5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4C113AFE.8060402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 10/06/10 19:38, E. Groenenberg wrote: > meow at you until you lifted it onto the seat beside you. Then it shuffled up > and laid half-on your leg and started purring. If you tried to move it off > you or stand up? You got the claws... > ITYM "Resting place retention devices." HTH.. HAND! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 14:37:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:37:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C1131DA.6010808@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jun 10, 10 12:41:30 pm Message-ID: > > There are many things that you can do IFF you are unaware that they can't > > be done. The Wile E. Coyote principle of software development. > > I use that principle for my audio amps ... > * Poof *, cough cough ... " Back to the drawing board " > How ever with tube audio, the parts vary so much much of your work > is trial and error. Sure it works but does it fit on the chassis? Or in my case, I didn;'t realise that many and tried and given up trying to figure out the HP9100 calculator... -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 14:43:55 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:43:55 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details - OT In-Reply-To: <4C113A91.3060902@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> <4C1131DA.6010808@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C113A91.3060902@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Ok. Name a transformer supplier , that is quality, > and has the transformers I need as standard in stock items. > 125 V, 40 ma 500V CT ?and 12H 40 ma chokes? There are PLENTY of transformer shops out there that will make whatever you want in quantity. Otherwise, there is PLENTY of old stock floating around. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 14:44:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:44:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: <4C113AFE.8060402@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 10, 10 08:20:30 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/06/10 19:38, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > That seems to be a common practice for IT people ;) (to have a cat or two), > > I always have had (and still have 1 (and maybe soon 2) cats. I think the inquisitive nature of cats very much suits my personality > > She first starts to moving around trying to find the 'best' sitting spot, > > and when done the nails come out..... Ohhh the pain, the pain (as Dr. Smith > > would say). > > "Ohhhh, the humanity!" > :-) > > Yeah, getting clawed by Ze Cat is one of the downsides. My aunt had a Pentina, alas, never sat on laps, and never clawed me. > really nice black (or really dark brown, not sure) long-haired cat > called "Momom" (where she got that name I don't know). It'd wait for you > to sit down, then meow at you until you lifted it onto the seat beside > you. Then it shuffled up and laid half-on your leg and started purring. > If you tried to move it off you or stand up? You got the claws... That sounds entirely reasonable... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 14:49:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:49:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jun 10, 10 12:34:45 pm Message-ID: > > Dogs may have owners, but Cats have staff, as it should be :) > > > Most definately(sp). Cats have spent tens of thousands of years to train Oh, indeed. Notice I said I was considiering getting another hacking companion. Not cosidiering owning a cat.... > us to be proper slaves. They caused us to develop all of this high > technology in order to make their lives easier. CRTs are highly evolved 'In ancient Egypt, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never forgotten this' (I forget where that quote came from...) > belly warmers that just happen to show us things that keep us out of > trouble while the Cat rests. The HP9836 has a lovelly flat top to the monitor, just the right size for a cat... > Dogs of course caused LCD panels to be created. The bastards. > > I still miss Pilot. She was 24 when I lost her. That's a good age for a cat!. Pentina was only about 10-12 years old, but then he had cancer, alas. Smudge (neighbour's cat) was 26 when he passed away a couple of months back. > > Condolences my friend. Thank you. -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 14:50:34 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:50:34 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: References: <4C113AFE.8060402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: I find the more command far more useful in general than cat. The pagination makes a big difference. And there's also this: bart > cat food cat: cannot open food From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 14:50:46 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details - OT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <803704.17648.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Ok. Name a transformer supplier , that is quality, > and has the transformers I need as standard in stock items. > 125 V, 40 ma 500V CT and 12H 40 ma chokes? How about the Hammond 369JX transformer and the Hammond 193B choke? -Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jun 10 14:53:01 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:53:01 -0700 Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: <4C113AFE.8060402@philpem.me.uk> References: <526e214df06872ef173caeeb843642e5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4C113AFE.8060402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philip Pemberton > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 12:21 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) > > On 10/06/10 19:38, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > That seems to be a common practice for IT people ;) (to have a cat or > two), > > I always have had (and still have 1 (and maybe soon 2) cats. > > Wasn't there something on BBC News about cat owners being statistically > more likely to have a university degree than dog owners? > > Ah, here we go: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8501042.stm > > > She first starts to moving around trying to find the 'best' sitting > spot, > > and when done the nails come out..... Ohhh the pain, the pain (as Dr. > Smith > > would say). > > "Ohhhh, the humanity!" > :-) > > Yeah, getting clawed by Ze Cat is one of the downsides. My aunt had a > really nice black (or really dark brown, not sure) long-haired cat > called "Momom" (where she got that name I don't know). It'd wait for > you > to sit down, then meow at you until you lifted it onto the seat beside > you. Then it shuffled up and laid half-on your leg and started purring. > If you tried to move it off you or stand up? You got the claws... > It took a while for me to convince Perseus that while I was glad he was glad to see me, the kneading was not the proper way to express it, especially since he would NOT let us trim his claws. I lost him last year. My daughter's cat also uses claws, when she thinks I should be paying attention to her (which is usually whenever we're in the same room). She just swats at me with an unsheathed set. -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 14:55:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:55:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 10, 10 02:42:36 pm Message-ID: > > On 6/10/10, Tony Duell wrote: > > When I was at school doing A levels, the subject I really hated was > > applied maths' (motion of bodies under various forces, projectile > > motion, etc). The reason is that it was so _fake_. There wrre so many > > unjustified approximations that it is useless in the real world. It was > > just a game to get you to solve equations. > > "Assume you have a bulldozer of negligible mass" > > or > > "I have a solution, but it only works for spherical chickens in a vacuum" > > etc., etc. Oh, it was wore thsn that. The projectile motion always invovled a parabolic trajectory. This assumes not only zero air resistance, but also uniform gravity acting vertically downwards -- in other words a flat earth. Which I don't believe in. There is nothing wrong with approxiamtions, of course. Although Newtonian mechanics is an approxiation to special relativity, I have no problem using hte former to work out what will happen to normal-sized objects moving at normal speeds. What annoyed me about applied maths was the _major_ approximationnts oyu made, which then resulted in some nasty-looking equaitons that you had to integrate analyitcally. The point being that if you'd integrated them numerically, the errors from that would have been much less than the errors introuced by the approximations, and becuase the equations _were_ based on approximations there was little point in fionding he analytic forom of the answer, it didn't really tell you how the system would really behave. No it was a silly game to get you to solve equations. -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 10 14:56:01 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:56:01 +0200 Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: <4C113AFE.8060402@philpem.me.uk> References: <526e214df06872ef173caeeb843642e5.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4C113AFE.8060402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1e3ad836443eaa7039d015b374494be6.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Indeed! I liked the phrase "It's really just a hunch though." I guess most of us know better! Ed > On 10/06/10 19:38, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> That seems to be a common practice for IT people ;) (to have a cat or >> two), >> I always have had (and still have 1 (and maybe soon 2) cats. > > Wasn't there something on BBC News about cat owners being statistically > more likely to have a university degree than dog owners? > > Ah, here we go: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8501042.stm > >> She first starts to moving around trying to find the 'best' sitting >> spot, >> and when done the nails come out..... Ohhh the pain, the pain (as Dr. >> Smith >> would say). > > "Ohhhh, the humanity!" > :-) > > Yeah, getting clawed by Ze Cat is one of the downsides. My aunt had a > really nice black (or really dark brown, not sure) long-haired cat > called "Momom" (where she got that name I don't know). It'd wait for you > to sit down, then meow at you until you lifted it onto the seat beside > you. Then it shuffled up and laid half-on your leg and started purring. > If you tried to move it off you or stand up? You got the claws... > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 14:57:36 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <703686.30673.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/10/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > I find the more command far more > useful in general than cat. The > pagination makes a big difference. And there's also > this: > > bart > cat food > cat: cannot open food Yes, but less does more than more. In terms of cat, you must be careful. Some versions of *nix take commands a bit to literally. Be sure your termcap is properly set. http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg280/RetroHacker/term_cat.jpg -Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 15:00:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:00:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lanning" at Jun 10, 10 02:50:34 pm Message-ID: > > I find the more command far more useful in general than cat. The > pagination makes a big difference. And there's also this: That dpeneds on what you are doing. I have certainly used cat(1) to catenate files to pipe into something else. And of coruse on some of my otehr machines, CAT (or *CAT) a command to prosduce a CATalouge of the files on a mass storage device. Now for soemthing even more off-topic (if that's possible). Anyone else remember the CAT and CATkin valves of the 1930s? -tony From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 10 15:02:24 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 22:02:24 +0200 Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: <703686.30673.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <703686.30673.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg280/RetroHacker/term_cat.jpg > > -Ian > ROFL! -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 15:02:38 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:02:38 -0700 Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: <4C10AEB6.8390.2E0F52@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C10AEB6.8390.2E0F52@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Why not use a 29C512 and just tie the extra address? Jameco listed at $2.39 but not in dip. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:21:58 -0700 > Subject: Re: seeking atmel 29c256 > > On 9 Jun 2010 at 23:13, David Griffith wrote: > > > Does anyone here know of a decent supply of 29c256 flash EEPROM chips > > or a drop-in replacement? I'm having a nasty time trying to source > > these for the P112 project. > > Any chance of using the 27F256 Flash chips? Futurlec sells them for > USD$1.90 the each. Different programming algorithm (Vpp = +12), but > compatible pinout on read. > > FWIW, > Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 15:03:06 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:03:06 -0500 Subject: Pets (was Re: Model M Keyboard problem) In-Reply-To: <703686.30673.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <703686.30673.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 6/10/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> I find the more command far more >> useful in general than cat. ?The >> pagination makes a big difference. ?And there's also >> this: >> >> bart > cat food >> cat: cannot open food > > Yes, but less does more than more. > > In terms of cat, you must be careful. Some versions of *nix take commands a bit to literally. Be sure your termcap is properly set. > > http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg280/RetroHacker/term_cat.jpg lol, an old terminal would be a great addition to a cat tree. Would this make the cat a device? Then maybe you could: echo $FOOD > /dev/cat From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 10 15:16:30 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:16:30 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details - OT In-Reply-To: <803704.17648.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <803704.17648.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C11481E.6040000@jetnet.ab.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Ok. Name a transformer supplier , that is quality, >> and has the transformers I need as standard in stock items. >> 125 V, 40 ma 500V CT and 12H 40 ma chokes? > > How about the Hammond 369JX transformer and the Hammond 193B choke? GET #$@! CAPS LOCK KEY OFF ... You can tell I writeing CODE. It is the Hammond products that are giving problems. The power transformer seems to unbalanced, one leg with a higher voltage than the other. I got 10H 40ma choke that does not work well, I have a 30H 40 ma choke on order. > -Ian > From feedle at feedle.net Thu Jun 10 15:39:19 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:39:19 -0700 Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: References: , <4C10AEB6.8390.2E0F52@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <02A13027-BBBD-43D9-BE5B-497DDDDE7413@feedle.net> On Jun 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > Why not use a 29C512 and just tie the extra address? > Jameco listed at $2.39 but not in dip. Not to speak for Dave (who's more than capable of speaking for his own damn self), it probably needs to be DIP. It is one of the kit components the end-user solders in (well, you solder in a socket, then snap the chip in the socket, but whatever). I believe redesigning it for a PLCC or other surface-mount package would require a pretty significant board redesign on Dave's part. Not to mention the additional benefit to having it in a DIP package: it means it can be swapped out if desired for different firmware (although I don't know of anybody actively doing it with the P112). From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 10 15:40:37 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: References: , <4C10AEB6.8390.2E0F52@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, dwight elvey wrote: >>> Does anyone here know of a decent supply of 29c256 flash EEPROM chips >>> or a drop-in replacement? I'm having a nasty time trying to source >>> these for the P112 project. >> >> Any chance of using the 27F256 Flash chips? Futurlec sells them for >> USD$1.90 the each. Different programming algorithm (Vpp = +12), but >> compatible pinout on read. > Hi > Why not use a 29C512 and just tie the extra address? > Jameco listed at $2.39 but not in dip. > Dwight Unfortunately dip is what I need. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 10 15:46:42 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: <02A13027-BBBD-43D9-BE5B-497DDDDE7413@feedle.net> References: , <4C10AEB6.8390.2E0F52@cclist.sydex.com> <02A13027-BBBD-43D9-BE5B-497DDDDE7413@feedle.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > On Jun 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > >> >> Hi >> Why not use a 29C512 and just tie the extra address? >> Jameco listed at $2.39 but not in dip. > > Not to speak for Dave (who's more than capable of speaking for his own > damn self), it probably needs to be DIP. It is one of the kit > components the end-user solders in (well, you solder in a socket, then > snap the chip in the socket, but whatever). I believe redesigning it > for a PLCC or other surface-mount package would require a pretty > significant board redesign on Dave's part. > > Not to mention the additional benefit to having it in a DIP package: it > means it can be swapped out if desired for different firmware (although > I don't know of anybody actively doing it with the P112). Yeah, I need dip. As for redesigning the P112 from the ground up, that's not out of the question. This hassle with tracking down parts going obsolete has made me ponder that. Fortunately the super-io and cpu are still being made and don't appear to be going away any time soon. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 10 16:06:51 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:06:51 -0700 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com>, <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com>, <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C10F17B.19060.132DE49@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2010 at 11:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > There are many things that you can do IFF you are unaware that they > can't be done. The Wile E. Coyote principle of software development. > > Fortunately, I had already created my white on black font BEFORE HP > told me that it was impossible. And tomorrow you're going to roll out your perpetual motion machine. --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 10 16:31:22 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 22:31:22 +0100 Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <37A88520E093457292E1843C25D356B6@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > Oh, it was wore thsn that. The projectile motion always invovled a > parabolic trajectory. This assumes not only zero air > resistance, but also > uniform gravity acting vertically downwards -- in other words a flat > earth. Which I don't believe in. Air resistance is ignored because otherwise the equations become too complex. In any particular real world example that may or may not lead to unacceptable errors. The constant approximation is far less of a problem. The Earth's radius is what ~6Mm, so even if your height changes by say 60m then that's less than 1%. The point is to teach you the simple case so that you understand it and can move on to the complications later. There won't be a "later" in A-level maths because there isn't enough time (you have to fit in the rest of the course and the remaining A-levels). > What annoyed me about applied maths was the > _major_ approximationnts oyu made, which then resulted in some > nasty-looking equaitons that you had to integrate > analyitcally. The point > being that if you'd integrated them numerically, the errors from that > would have been much less than the errors introuced by the > approximations, and becuase the equations _were_ based on > approximations there was little point in fionding he analytic forom > of the > answer, it > didn't really tell you how the system would really behave. I don't recall whether I started solving stuff numerically at A-level or at degree-level, I suspect the latter. However, I do recall that the point of A-level maths was to teach the basics of calculus and some of its applications (I didn't cover any of the statistics options in my course). I could complain that there was no coverage of vector calculus at A-level and that I had to (horror!) go and find out what it was all about when I realised that the degree course turned out to be - use vector calculus (Maxwell's equations or some such) [weeks later] - two lectures on vector calculus and what it's all about I could complain that the basic electronics on my engineering science course was pretty rudimentary and that the practicals were (in my view) pretty basic. But there was a lot packed into the course and it provided a foundation for many different areas. I don't think I could be trusted to build a bridge now, but if I'd been that way inclined I would have had enough of a grounding to get my foot in the door somewhere. Antonio From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 10 15:58:36 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:58:36 +0100 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem References: Message-ID: <00a001cb08e7$ca29dd80$c6fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:10 PM Subject: Re: Model M Keyboard problem > > Generally I do not eat or drink around my computers, I don't like food > > particles in my keyboards (bad enough I have cats around with hairs that > > need vacuumed). Doing that makes me take a break every so often to grab a > > This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > yesterday. So I will no longer get fur in my keyboards and will no longer > had an orange xtrreak trying to trip me up when I'm carrying a CRT. I > really miss him already :-( > > -tony :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 10 17:03:31 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:03:31 -0700 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <4C113AFB.3090000@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C113AFB.3090000@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C116133.1050702@brouhaha.com> >> Dogs may have owners, but Cats have staff, as it should be :) > I thought that was for British Cats. I don't know anything about British cats, but I think it's true of all cats. One of my friends has a calico cat from China. I think her name is ??, but I don't speak Mandarin so I just call her the Communist Cat. Apparently when she says "Mao" she really means it. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 10 17:06:13 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:06:13 -0700 Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1161D5.1090207@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Hmmm.. The only digital camera [1] I've seen inside seemed to contain a > BGA packaged chip, another PQFP chip and some bits for the flash circuit. > And the lense/CCD unit, of course. It didn't look very very repairable. > Just as repairable as any other piece of consumer electronics these days. As always, you have to have the right tools for the job. In this case, the repair process generally requires a credit card. From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Jun 10 17:13:12 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:13:12 -0400 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience Message-ID: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> The last two nights I've been busy archiving some of my Amiga floppy collection. Most disks were written over 20 years ago. On a sample size of about 150 floppies, most of them were perfectly readable by my homegrown usb external amiga floppy drive controller. I paid very close attention to the failures or ones where my controller struggled. Without sounding too obvious here, the time between the pulses (which more or less define the data) were grossly out of spec. The DD pulses should nominally be 4us, 6us, and 8us apart before pre-write compensation. Most good disks are slightly faster, and normal times for these ranges are: 4us: 3.2-4.2us. Many around 3.75us 6us: 5.5-6.2us. 8us: 7.5-8.2us (notice margins around 1-1.3us) My original microcontroller implementation was 3.2-4.2, 5.2-6.2, and 7.2-8.2. When my current FPGA controller would have a problem, I'd notice that there were problems right on a boundary. So maybe pulses were coming in at 3.1us apart instead of 3.2. Or maybe 4.3 instead of 4.2. So I kept bumping the intervals apart, making a larger range of pulse times acceptable --- the XOR sector checksums were passing, so I was likely making the right choices. The bits were ending up in the right buckets. But as I went through some of these disks, I ended up with the difference between ranges(and basically my noise margin) being reduced smaller and smaller. Some to the point where an incoming pulse time might fall darn smack in the middle of the noise margin. Which bucket does THAT one go into? My approach has been very successful(easily 95%+), but it makes me wonder about Phil's DiscFerret dynamic adaptive approach where a sample of the incoming data defines the ranges. Some disk drives and controllers might be faster or slower than others, and if you create custom ranges for each disk (each track?), perhaps you'll have better luck. Keith From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 17:17:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:17:48 -0700 Subject: seeking atmel 29c256 In-Reply-To: References: , , <4C10AEB6.8390.2E0F52@cclist.sydex.com>, , <02A13027-BBBD-43D9-BE5B-497DDDDE7413@feedle.net>, Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:46:42 -0700 > From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: seeking atmel 29c256 > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > > > On Jun 10, 2010, at 1:02 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > >> > >> Hi > >> Why not use a 29C512 and just tie the extra address? > >> Jameco listed at $2.39 but not in dip. > > > > Not to speak for Dave (who's more than capable of speaking for his own > > damn self), it probably needs to be DIP. It is one of the kit > > components the end-user solders in (well, you solder in a socket, then > > snap the chip in the socket, but whatever). I believe redesigning it > > for a PLCC or other surface-mount package would require a pretty > > significant board redesign on Dave's part. > > > > Not to mention the additional benefit to having it in a DIP package: it > > means it can be swapped out if desired for different firmware (although > > I don't know of anybody actively doing it with the P112). > > Yeah, I need dip. As for redesigning the P112 from the ground up, that's > not out of the question. This hassle with tracking down parts going > obsolete has made me ponder that. Fortunately the super-io and cpu are > still being made and don't appear to be going away any time soon. > > > Hi I did some more searching and they do have a 32 pin dip listed on a catalog page but it doesn't show on their web search. On page 17, they have: Part# 242552CG 29C512-12 DIP-32 5V $5.25 single $4.25 10ea This isn't in their current paper catalog but does show on one of their reference catalog pages for flash memory. It should be worth a call. 1-800-831-4242 Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jun 10 17:19:17 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:19:17 +0100 Subject: Ultrix Media Message-ID: <00a701cb08ea$fe028aa0$fa079fe0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I would like to install Ultrix on SIMH VAX. So far I have found only this: ftp://ifctfvax.harhan.org/pub/UNIX/thirdparty/Ultrix-32/ult400vaxdist-tk50/s up/, I was pointed there from here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_Ultrix_4.0_on_SIMH. Trouble is I am not entirely sure what to do with the individual files to make an Ultrix virtual tape. Anyone know? Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 10 17:39:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:39:46 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C110742.8268.187F09B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2010 at 18:13, Keith wrote: > Some disk drives and controllers might be faster or slower than > others, and if you create custom ranges for each disk (each track?), > perhaps you'll have better luck. Just so--and it might even be good to derive your ranges for individual sectors. I'm working with a bunch of 8" samples this week from some manufacturing equipment and it's perfectly obvious that some sectors were rewritten by a somewhat out-of-spec drive. Since this is an 8" drive with a line-powered AC motor, my suspicion is a slipping belt or a dry bearing. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 10 17:40:40 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:40:40 -0700 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <4C116133.1050702@brouhaha.com> References: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C113AFB.3090000@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C116133.1050702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C1169E8.1090100@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I think her name is ?? Looks like the UTF-8 characters (Unicode 82b1 751f) didn't make it through the list. Sigh. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 17:45:34 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:45:34 -0400 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C110742.8268.187F09B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> <4C110742.8268.187F09B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/10/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Jun 2010 at 18:13, Keith wrote: > >> Some disk drives and controllers might be faster or slower than >> others, and if you create custom ranges for each disk (each track?), >> perhaps you'll have better luck. > > Just so--and it might even be good to derive your ranges for > individual sectors. Except that Amigas read and write an entire track in one pass, unlike most disk schemes. You might see variation from track to track, though. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 10 17:46:05 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:46:05 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C116B2D.1020204@brouhaha.com> Keith wrote: > > Without sounding too obvious here, the time between the pulses (which > more or less define the data) were grossly out of spec. The DD pulses > should nominally be 4us, 6us, and 8us apart before pre-write > compensation. Most good disks are slightly faster, and normal times > for these ranges are: > > 4us: 3.2-4.2us. Many around 3.75us > 6us: 5.5-6.2us. > 8us: 7.5-8.2us > > (notice margins around 1-1.3us) > > > My original microcontroller implementation was 3.2-4.2, 5.2-6.2, and > 7.2-8.2. > > When my current FPGA controller would have a problem, I'd notice that > there were problems right on a boundary. So maybe pulses were coming > in at 3.1us apart instead of 3.2. Or maybe 4.3 instead of 4.2. So I > kept bumping the intervals apart, making a larger range of pulse times > acceptable --- the XOR sector checksums were passing, so I was likely > making the right choices. The bits were ending up in the right buckets. > > But as I went through some of these disks, I ended up with the > difference between ranges(and basically my noise margin) being reduced > smaller and smaller. Some to the point where an incoming pulse time > might fall darn smack in the middle of the noise margin. Which bucket > does THAT one go into? > > My approach has been very successful(easily 95%+), but it makes me > wonder about Phil's DiscFerret dynamic adaptive approach where a > sample of the incoming data defines the ranges. This is exactly why good floppy controller hardware uses a PLL for data recovery, rather than one-shots, simple state machines, and the other approaches that were taken to save money, board space, etc. My experiments with floppy data recovery in software used a simple DPLL, and I found that it tracked the data much better than any simple threshold scheme. The best data separators actually used PLLs with two feedback paths with different characteristics, one to track longer-term variation due to motor speed, and one to track short-term effects. Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 10 18:25:14 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:25:14 -0700 Subject: Ultrix Media In-Reply-To: <00a701cb08ea$fe028aa0$fa079fe0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <00a701cb08ea$fe028aa0$fa079fe0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C11745A.6020701@bitsavers.org> > Trouble is I am not > entirely sure what to do with the individual files to make an Ultrix virtual > tape. Anyone know? > You put them together with the right blocking factors and file marks to make a .tap image. I've uploaded some earlier versions to http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/vax/ultrix to show you what they should look like. I probably should do the same for the 4.x versions he has. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 10 18:31:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:31:32 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C116B2D.1020204@brouhaha.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C116B2D.1020204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2010 at 15:46, Eric Smith wrote: > My experiments with floppy data recovery in software used a simple > DPLL, and I found that it tracked the data much better than any simple > threshold scheme. What I was trying to say, but in a rather roundabout way. Given that most common floppy data separators can accommodate at least a +/- 10% variation (or more) in long-term speed variation, a too-slow drive can easily write a sector that's way out-of-spec timing-wise on a track that's otherwise perfectly in spec. It's necessary that any read algorithm be able to adjust to short-term (sector-to-sector) variations, as well as long-term (track to track) ones. Given that you *know* the structure of a track ahead of time, there should be no reason that your data recovery routines can't be *much* better than the usual brain-dead floppy controller's efforts. Ethan Dicks wrote: > Except that Amigas read and write an entire track in one pass, > unlike most disk schemes. Heh, there are a couple of other systems that do that (Commodore didn't invent it). I've got an 8" hard-sectored floppy sitting on my desk here, where the data for cylinder 9, complete with address ID is duplicated on cylinder 3. Apparently there's no "look before you write" in whatever wrote it. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 19:50:49 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 01:50:49 +0100 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 8:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > 'In ancient Egypt, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never > forgotten this' (I forget where that quote came from...) I believe it's Terry Pratchett, from /The Unadulterated Cat/. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 10 20:08:54 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:08:54 -0600 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C118CA6.4040205@jetnet.ab.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 8:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> 'In ancient Egypt, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never >> forgotten this' (I forget where that quote came from...) > > I believe it's Terry Pratchett, from /The Unadulterated Cat/. > My favorite cat quote of sorts. "The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter, It isn't just one of your holiday games; You may think at first I'm as mad as a hatter When I tell you, a cat must have THREE DIFFERENT NAMES. First of all, there's the name that... " The Naming Of Cats by T. S. Eliot. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 10 20:23:49 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:23:49 -0700 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C0D5A64.8090808@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C119026.6C4060A9@cs.ubc.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: > "Dummy load / PSU tester" is right on the top of my "stuff to build" list :) > > I just have to figure out how to do the "constant power" regulation. I > want to go with opamps for the regulation (faster response time to V/I > transients) and a D/A to set the current/voltage/power 'setpoint'. > > Constant-voltage is easy (drain enough current to bring V_in down to the > setpoint). > Constant-current is just as easy (drain a fixed current). > Constant power involves a bit of maths (a multiply and some division if > you're doing PID control or some lesser variant thereof). A > microcontroller-based implementation would work, but respond slowly to > load transients (which is hardly ideal). Might be more complexity and designing than you wish for the task, but JOOI, one way of doing constant-power regulation is with an analog-multiplier IC. I've seen this done (on the supply side) in a HV lab power supply, using an MC1494 4-quadrant multiplier. I can supply the reverse-engineered schematic if of interest. The MC1494 is 70/80's-era chip, I don't know what's current these days. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 10 20:26:25 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:26:25 -0700 Subject: constant-power regulation / was Re: Lightbulb police References: <4C0D5A64.8090808@philpem.me.uk> <4C119026.6C4060A9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C1190C2.EA32C2A8@cs.ubc.ca> I wish one could go back and change the subject line after sending a message. From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Jun 10 21:00:34 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:00:34 -0700 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/10/10 9:37 AM, "Mark Tapley" wrote: > At 1:33 -0500 6/10/10, Tony wrote: >> This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away >> yesterday. > > Here's to Pentina > > > > may his soul always have a warm monitor to rest on! My condolences Tony, I do understand when ones feline partner passes away. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 10 22:09:31 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:09:31 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C1186EC.8060307@softjar.se> References: <4C1186EC.8060307@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C11A8EB.8030704@jetnet.ab.ca> Johnny Billquist wrote: > The system calls, information about file system stuff, and all other > information you need to write programs in assembler is documented in the > OS/8 SOFTWARE SUPPORT MANUAL > Don't know if it's available online, but I would suspect so. It is online, and as scanned text file. It printed out rather clean on the laser with only a few blank pages. > Johnny > The important thing is got windows ( hyper-term ) and the SBC6120 with k12mit ( Kermit ) talking to each other today. The PDP 8 was promoted as paper tape system, and it is harder to think of communicating with it remotely. I still will do most of my editing in DOS box, since the line editor is pain to use with the PDP 8. Ben. From hachti at hachti.de Thu Jun 10 22:52:52 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 05:52:52 +0200 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C11217F.3070603@brouhaha.com> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C11217F.3070603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C11B314.4010107@hachti.de> On 10.06.2010 19:31, Eric Smith wrote: > Ben wrote: >> With the 8 you just can't create programs on line. > I think that will be news to the thousands of programmers that did > exactly that. Thousands... and one more! There is a subtle difference between "can't" and "it's sometimes not funny to" :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 10 23:08:45 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:08:45 -0700 Subject: Ultrix Media In-Reply-To: <4C11745A.6020701@bitsavers.org> References: <00a701cb08ea$fe028aa0$fa079fe0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4C11745A.6020701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C11B6CD.2060406@bitsavers.org> On 6/10/10 4:25 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > I probably should do the same > for the > 4.x versions he has. > done.. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jun 10 23:28:14 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 05:28:14 +0100 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to><4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to><4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net><4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net><4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com><4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca><201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net><4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca><4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca><4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <653737A699C843DE802EE4BB6D009742@Edicons.local> Ah an example of the Bumble Bee principle. Aerodynamically the Bumble Bee can't fly. However they have no way of telling the Bee, so it carries on flying. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 10 June 2010 19:32 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details > >>> so I can write out my program. With the 8 you just can't create > >>> programs on line. > >> You can't? That's news to me, having done so. Back to do the docs! There are many things that you can do IFF you are unaware that they can't be done. The Wile E. Coyote principle of software development. Fortunately, I had already created my white on black font BEFORE HP told me that it was impossible. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 23:36:32 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 00:36:32 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <653737A699C843DE802EE4BB6D009742@Edicons.local> References: <4C0A8D2D.5060909@heeltoe.com> <4C0B8052.2070807@compsys.to> <4C0C14E4.2050703@hachti.de> <4C0C2FFA.9070404@compsys.to> <4C0C749E.20001@verizon.net> <4C0D7459.4030304@brouhaha.com> <4C0E51DF.4050404@verizon.net> <4C0E5E02.7030905@hachti.de> <4C0EA333.4090700@mindspring.com> <4C0FAA2C.1070705@jetnet.ab.ca> <201006092304.o59N4EZW011417@rickmurphy.net> <4C10F713.2020909@hachti.de> <4C111AA5.1020700@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C1125DD.1030401@neurotica.com> <4C1126D5.2010401@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C112EAB.1030908@neurotica.com> <20100610112931.D64644@shell.lmi.net> <653737A699C843DE802EE4BB6D009742@Edicons.local> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 12:28 AM, RodSmallwood wrote: > Ah an example of the Bumble Bee principle. Aerodynamically the Bumble Bee > can't fly. However they have no way of telling the Bee, so it carries on > flying. Well, yes, except that since that meme started, they've analyzed the airstreams around the bumblebee with better precision and it turns out there's a wee vortex over the back of the bee that makes all the difference in overall lift. Not predictable nor detectable with 19th Century methods, but there none-the-less. -ethan From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Jun 10 14:11:30 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 14:11:30 -0500 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1138E2.4000706@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away >>> yesterday. So I will no longer get fur in my keyboards and will no longer >>> had an orange xtrreak trying to trip me up when I'm carrying a CRT. I >>> really miss him already :-( >> Oh, I'm sorry to hear that, man. My sympathies. > > Thank you. He was a great companion to me as I was fixing classic computers. > > Unforutnately, towards the end of last week he had difficulty swallowing. > We took him to a vet (as I mentioned some months back, a cat is about the > only thing I wouldn;'t try to repair myself), and he discovered he had > serious cancer in his mouth. He couldn't breate properly, and the vet > said there was nothing that could be done to help him. > > I am seriously considering giving a home ot another cat sometime. Not to > replace Pentina, you can't replace a cat. But a different friend to sit > on my service manuals, shed hairs in my disk drives, try to trip me up, > and so on. > > -tony > I'm really sorry to hear that Tony. We lost our grand-dog just a few weeks ago at age 8, and we do miss her terribly. Regards, Charlie C. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 17:18:21 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> I still miss Pilot. She was 24 when I lost her. > > That's a good age for a cat!. Pentina was only about 10-12 years old, but > then he had cancer, alas. Smudge (neighbour's cat) was 26 when he passed > away a couple of months back. My orange tabby "Yeti" (big feet!) lived to the ripe age of 19. She spent the last 8 months of her life completely blind, yet still managed to navigate her way around the house by dead reckoning and whisker-sensing. I still miss her. Cats are like members of the family, so believe me I understand what you're feeling. My condolences. Steve -- From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jun 10 19:05:10 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:05:10 -0600 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C117DB6.3030102@softjar.se> Ben wrote: > Looking back with the emulators, of vintage hardware > it is the fact that expensive things like mass-storage > could be shared among several people. I have just been > installing some PDP 8 software on a IDE drive and even > with the small size of PDP 8 disks ( 2048k max ) you > sure can see how small programs and data was back then. > With a PDP 8 multi-tasking the programs I expect where > dog slow, but they could run with larger memory and > disks a larger machine could justify. In all fairness, there is no such limitation on the size of disks on PDP-8s. OS/8 have a limitation on disks being no more than 4096 *blocks*, but that's a limitation in that OS, which is based on the fact that just one word is used to specify the block number for device drivers. Larger disks (which weren't that unusual) had to be presented as several logical disks to the OS, in order for them to be fully used. So an RL02 (as an example) looked like five disks to OS/8. RL0A, RL0B, RL0C, RL0D and RL0E. All about 2M each. As for multi-tasking - no, that was/is not dog slow. Most of the time it was perfectly fine even for several interactive users in parallel. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jun 10 19:44:28 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 18:44:28 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1186EC.8060307@softjar.se> Ben wrote: > What are the programs needed to program under OS/8 in assembler > using OS/8 as I/O for the assembler? What is the OS/8 handbook > that lists the OS/8 system calls for OS/8 use from assembler. > IS IT ONLINE as pdf? > Planing to write a few new programs for the 8, because we have the > technology. > Ben. Programs needed? PAL8 is the standard assembler, and ABSLDR is the normal linker/loader. The system calls, information about file system stuff, and all other information you need to write programs in assembler is documented in the OS/8 SOFTWARE SUPPORT MANUAL Don't know if it's available online, but I would suspect so. Johnny From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 11 01:38:50 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:38:50 -0700 Subject: Seeking early Quantum AT drive specifications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi I am looking for copies of early Quantum AT drive manuals such as QUANTUM PRODRIVE 40/80AT TECHNICAL REFERENCE MANUAL, REV. A dated 10/90, or any other early Quantum Prodrive AT drive manual. I'm interested in anything up to and including the ProDrive 425AT. I have data sheets but I would like more detail on the IDE implementation. Contact me off line. Tom Gardner (650) 941-5324 From ball.of.john at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 01:47:13 2010 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:47:13 -0700 Subject: PS/2 Model 95 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4129953D20DB4B2F99268BAEACE0295E@sparks> I have come upon the mother of all Microchannel cards and now have in my ownership a completely maxed IrisVision card with the driver discs, cables and the technical reference manual. You would not believe how hard it was to get hold of this thing. While I already have a Microchannel system, a 55SX, it's running AIX 1.3 and it's not worth it putting this card into that. What I want to drop it and a few other nice cards I have collected like MCA sound and GPIB is something like a Model 95 but for some reason I have terrible luck with them. With the first one the deal went as far as paying for shipping before the guy reconsidered, refunded me and recycled it. The other system and a half that another collector had I almost got last month was working several years ago and was as maxed as you could possibly get but was put into a garage and over time due to poor placement and clueless relatives, both systems were first written off my the harsh pacific coast air and then thrown away because they looked to be worthless prior to them moving. I'm still on the hunt for one and got all the extras I would ever need like the Type 3 complex with an upgraded 5x86 processor, the reference manual and diskette and a few other accessories like an internal CD drive and recently I came across a 10/100 Microchannel card but still the 95 eludes me. Why are these systems so remarkably hard to find when you need them? I know someone who recycled about a dozen five months ago but of course, he didn't know I needed one. :P From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 11 03:45:28 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 01:45:28 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: <4C117DB6.3030102@softjar.se> References: <4C117DB6.3030102@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C11F7A8.6080003@brouhaha.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > As for multi-tasking - no, that was/is not dog slow. Most of the time > it was perfectly fine even for several interactive users in parallel. And why was the PDP-8 not dog slow doing simple things like editing text files? Because people wrote software *carefully* back then. They didn't code as if the CPU were infinitely fast; they didn't use any more instructions than were absolutely necessary. Sure, the processor executed well under a million instructions per second, rather than billions of instructions per second of modern processors. And that's only instructions that operate on 12-bit data, rather than 32-bit or 64-bit today. But writing a character to the system console via a handler in the operating system only required executing a few dozen instructions on a PDP-8, versus executing thousands of instructions today. I just checked on my Linux x86_64 system, and on average writing a character to the console requires executing over six thousand instructions. Eric -- And in those days many a clever programmer derived an immense intellectual satisfaction from the cunning tricks by means of which he contrived to squeeze the impossible into the constraints of his equipment. --- Edsger W. Dijkstra, "The Humble Programmer", 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Jun 11 06:01:28 2010 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 07:01:28 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C11A8EB.8030704@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C1186EC.8060307@softjar.se> <4C11A8EB.8030704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201006111101.o5BB1RXL015728@rickmurphy.net> At 11:09 PM 6/10/2010, Ben wrote: >The important thing is got windows ( hyper-term ) and the >SBC6120 with k12mit ( Kermit ) talking to each other today. >The PDP 8 was promoted as paper tape system, and it is >harder to think of communicating with it remotely. >I still will do most of my editing in DOS box, since the line >editor is pain to use with the PDP 8. Yes, you can do everything with paper tape. My first DEC system was a PDP-5 with paper tape only. You read the editor into memory off paper tape, read your source off tape then punched a new version. Then you loaded the assembler off paper tape, punched a bin paper tape, etc... very painful. Under OS/8 it's a lot easier and more convenient. You can use the line editor or TECO. With a VT-52 emulating terminal, VTEDIT is a very friendly editor. (However, I'm TECO-biased. I created the VAX TECO editor for VMS.) If your terminal emulator can't do VT-52, I do have a copy of OS/8 TECO and VTEDIT that works with ANSI terminals. Getting it onto your PDP-8 should be pretty easy if you've got Kermit running. (I use PUTR to move things on and off my SIMH drives.) -Rick From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 11 06:11:51 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:11:51 +0100 Subject: constant-power regulation / was Re: Lightbulb police In-Reply-To: <4C119026.6C4060A9@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C0D5A64.8090808@philpem.me.uk> <4C119026.6C4060A9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C1219F7.1010807@philpem.me.uk> On 11/06/10 02:23, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Might be more complexity and designing than you wish for the task, but > JOOI, one way of doing constant-power regulation is with an > analog-multiplier IC. > I've seen this done (on the supply side) in a HV lab power supply, > using an MC1494 4-quadrant multiplier. I can supply the reverse-engineered > schematic if of interest. That would be nice if it's not too much trouble. > The MC1494 is 70/80's-era chip, I don't know what's current these days. I seem to recall the MC1494 being a Gilbert-cell multiplier. The SA602 or SA612 might be one option, but ADI do the AD532 which would probably be a much better choice. Unfortunately even the cheapest version of that chip (10-lead TO-100) is about $20 in 100-off. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 11 07:57:06 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:57:06 +0100 Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: <4C1161D5.1090207@brouhaha.com> References: <4C1161D5.1090207@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C1232A2.8010203@philpem.me.uk> On 10/06/10 23:06, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> Hmmm.. The only digital camera [1] I've seen inside seemed to contain a >> BGA packaged chip, another PQFP chip and some bits for the flash circuit. >> And the lense/CCD unit, of course. It didn't look very very repairable. > Just as repairable as any other piece of consumer electronics these > days. As always, you have to have the right tools for the job. In this > case, the repair process generally requires a credit card. In this case the cameras consisted of two PCBs -- the main board with the CMOS sensor and controller chip, and a switch board with the mode switch and power switch. The cameras had been liquid-damaged and sold as a lot. I replaced a couple of connectors, cleaned the PCBs, and managed to make a few good cameras out of a box of bad ones. From the rest, I scavenged the lens assembly and sensor. Those are in my junkbox waiting for a suitable project... I'm thinking of strapping one to a P8079HP image intensifier and building a night-vision camera of some description. The lenses are "semi-fixed" focus -- you can refocus them by loosening a screw and twisting the front of the lens, then replacing the locking screw. If I could get my sticky paws on a Kodak Ektapro high-speed camera assembly (just the sensor head and data cable), it'd be a several-thousand FPS high-speed night-vision camera :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dave09 at dunfield.com Fri Jun 11 10:03:42 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:03:42 -0500 Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: <4C112D52.6030402@philpem.me.uk> References: Message-ID: > > I find rechargeable batteries to be a pain in gneeral. Unless it's > > something I'm using all the time, the self-discharge means they're > > genrally pretty flat when I want to use the device. And then I have to > > want for a considerable time for them to recharge. For stuff I don't have > > to carry around I prefer to plug it into the mains. > > Self-discharge isn't really a problem with Li-(ion,polymer) and the > "hybrid" NiMH technologies (e.g. Eneloop). Generally speaking I get more > use out of my box of Eneloop batteries even though they have a lower > rated capacity than a similar set of Energizer NiMHs. My experience with digital cameras that operate on AA batteries is that the problem is not so much self-discharge as it is poor design. (This is also true of many other products) They design the cameras to run on AA batteries - marketing says it has to shutdown gracefully when the batteries run out - and they design a low battery threshold based on 1.5v AA alkaline batteries. Then when they realize it hogs so much power it only takes 3 shots on dry cells, they spec. high capacity NiMh cells - which are nominal 1.2v per cell. I have tested: Minolta Dimage 7Hi - recommended to use NiMh cells (set came with it), takes 4 cells (nominal 4.8v), measured low battery threshold is about 5.2v. Two Cannon A520s - recommended to use NiMh cells, takes 2 cells (nominal 2.4v), measured low battery threshold is about 2.6v. Hp M(something or other - it's gone now) - recommended to use NiMh cells, takes 2 cells (nominal 2.4v), measured low battery threshold is about 2.7v. Sony F42 flash - takes 4 cells (nominal 4.8v), measured low battery threshold is about 5.1v. Both the Dimage and the A520 were reviewed to have "excellent battery life" - the reviews say you can charge a set of cells, and then shoot "all day". Which is mostly true. However when you turn it on a morning or two later, after the cells have settled down to their nominal 1.2v level, they shut down saying the batteries need to be replaced. In fact this happens even if you didn't shoot anything - just install freshly charged cells and wait a couple of days. But... I can take the "dead" cells out of the cameras, and put them in my 2m handheld - a fairly high current draw device when transmitting, and they will run it for weeks. I tested once taking the "dead" cells from my Dimage and drawing a couple hundred ma from them - they lasted nearly 10 hours - ie: nearly the full capacity of the cells. NiMh calls when freshly charged exhibit 1.3-1.4v/cell, however they settle fairly quickly to 1.2v - even if not being used... then the voltage remains is nearly flat until the cells are depleted, at which point they drop rapidly. Long term shelf life is poor due to self-discharge, however in my experience your camera will reject them long before this should be a factor. Self-discharge takes months, not days. Hybrid cells like eneloop help with self-discharge, and do slow the initial drop which makes them more useable in a camera ... but the fundamental problem remains - the device simply was not designed for 1.2v cells and shuts itself off when it things the "standard batteries" are getting low. When my A520 says to replace the eneloops, they are still just at the top of their discharge curve. Slight relevence to old computers: Most of the photos on my site were taken with the Dimage (it's very good in indoor low-light conditions - I got it free because the original owner "couldn't keep it in batteries")... I struggled for a while charging batteries every session, but since most of my photos are taken at a single location, it was easy to provide a power supply and it hasn't caused me any trouble since. -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 10:02:32 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:02:32 -0500 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C125008.9060907@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Generally I do not eat or drink around my computers, I don't like food >> particles in my keyboards (bad enough I have cats around with hairs that >> need vacuumed). Doing that makes me take a break every so often to grab a > > This alas is not a problem for me any more. Poor Pentina passed away > yesterday. So I will no longer get fur in my keyboards and will no longer > had an orange xtrreak trying to trip me up when I'm carrying a CRT. I > really miss him already :-( Sorry to hear that, Tony. We've got three cats here and two dogs, and it'd be hard losing any of them (we did lose a dog last year, and a cat the year before that). I'm typing this* while trying to balance a spaniel in my lap (he's the only one of our critters who does the lap thing and he's a bit big for the job, but at least he makes a good excuse for my typos). * on a Model M, for obligatory on-topicness. I'd suggest checking freecycle for a cat or kitten when the time comes - I always figure that the ones at pet shelters at least have some sort of chance, but the freecycle freebies are the ones in real danger of being abandoned. cheers Jules From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 11 11:32:30 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:32:30 +0100 Subject: Ultrix Media In-Reply-To: <4C11B6CD.2060406@bitsavers.org> References: <00a701cb08ea$fe028aa0$fa079fe0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4C11745A.6020701@bitsavers.org> <4C11B6CD.2060406@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <001b01cb0983$b34217d0$19c64770$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 11 June 2010 05:09 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ultrix Media > > On 6/10/10 4:25 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > I probably should do the same > > for the > > 4.x versions he has. > > > > done.. Many thanks. Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 11:55:30 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:55:30 -0500 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Which is why I was rather interested by this device: > http://digitalchunk.com/kddi-sharp-android-iso1-smartbook.htm Interesting, but why would it run only Android 1.6? 2.2 is about to be released. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 11 11:59:19 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: from Jason T at "Jun 11, 10 11:55:30 am" Message-ID: <201006111659.o5BGxJXo013312@floodgap.com> > > Which is why I was rather interested by this device: > > http://digitalchunk.com/kddi-sharp-android-iso1-smartbook.htm > > Interesting, but why would it run only Android 1.6? 2.2 is about to > be released. The article date is a little old. I imagine it's been updated since. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If at first you don't succeed, don't go skydiving. ------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 12:02:16 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:02:16 +0100 Subject: Any former Psion 5 owners out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 5:55 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 7:52 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> Which is why I was rather interested by this device: >> http://digitalchunk.com/kddi-sharp-android-iso1-smartbook.htm > > Interesting, but why would it run only Android 1.6? ?2.2 is about to > be released. Damned if I know. The development speed of Android is really showing up some phone manufacturers - I heard it recently referred to in an article as "the frenetic non-stop pace of Android development". Yeah, because under half a dozen releases in a couple of years is just insane, nobody could keep up with that. (!) ;?) The device I am most interested in at the moment (that I actually can *get* in the UK) is the Dell Streak, formerly the Dell Mini 5. It too only runs 1.6 and it's a PITA. I am very interested but not until the company gets its collective finger out and ships an update to a relatively current version of Android. Preferably, 2.2 or newer. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jun 11 12:06:21 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:06:21 -0400 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C116B2D.1020204@brouhaha.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> <4C116B2D.1020204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C126D0D.1040309@verizon.net> On 6/10/2010 6:46 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > This is exactly why good floppy controller hardware uses a PLL for data > recovery, rather than one-shots, simple state machines, and the other > approaches that were taken to save money, board space, etc. > > My experiments with floppy data recovery in software used a simple DPLL, > and I found that it tracked the data much better than any simple > threshold scheme. Can you please give me an approximate idea of how you did this? Did you have a counter, then constantly adjust the output based on the time of arriving pulses? Got any psuedocode? :) Thanks Keith From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 11 12:09:53 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:09:53 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C1243E6.9020500@softjar.se> References: <4C1243E6.9020500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C126DE1.8020806@jetnet.ab.ca> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Why use a line editor? There are several full screen editors for OS/8. > Really fast and nice ones. Where? > Johnny From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jun 11 12:12:43 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:12:43 -0400 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C116B2D.1020204@brouhaha.com> <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> On 6/10/2010 7:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What I was trying to say, but in a rather roundabout way. Given > that most common floppy data separators can accommodate at least a +/- > 10% variation (or more) in long-term speed variation, a too-slow > drive can easily write a sector that's way out-of-spec timing-wise on > a track that's otherwise perfectly in spec. It's necessary that any > read algorithm be able to adjust to short-term (sector-to-sector) > variations, as well as long-term (track to track) ones. Chuck, Thanks for the response. I know you've advanced this position before. My relatively simple "time between pulses" method works probably 95% of the time. It's getting this last 5% to read correctly where it looks like I'll need some more sophisticated algorithms. Thanks Keith From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 12:28:00 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:28:00 -0400 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C126DE1.8020806@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C1243E6.9020500@softjar.se> <4C126DE1.8020806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Ben wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> Why use a line editor? There are several full screen editors for OS/8. >> Really fast and nice ones. > > Where? I just know of one - VTEDIT.TE http://www.pdp8.net/os/os8/os8_cmd.shtml I had unhappy results with a VT220 in VT52 mode 25 years ago, but it works great with a real VT52. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 11 12:51:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:51:36 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2010 at 13:12, Keith M wrote: > Thanks for the response. I know you've advanced this position before. > My relatively simple "time between pulses" method works probably 95% > of the time. It's getting this last 5% to read correctly where it > looks like I'll need some more sophisticated algorithms. Keith, You should set your sights higher--you should be able to read 100% of the floppies that are readable by the Commodore drive and a few that the Commodore drive can't. If you think about it a bit, you can do a substantially better job with "problem disks'. For example (I'll use standard IBM 3740-type format as a basis), if a legacy floppy controller mis-reads an ID header, it will return a "Sector not found" type of error. However, as a programmer you know what the disk layout is and what the sector ordering should be--and approximately where any given sector should be. So, to read the sector, you assume the contents of the ID header and switch to looking for the closest DAM. There's your sector. Take a look at some of the old Western Digitial FDC app notes, particularly those for the 179x controllers for ideas on how data separators can be implemented. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 11 13:59:33 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:59:33 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C126D0D.1040309@verizon.net> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> <4C116B2D.1020204@brouhaha.com> <4C126D0D.1040309@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C128795.2040905@brouhaha.com> On 06/11/2010 10:06 AM, Keith M wrote: > Can you please give me an approximate idea of how you did this? Did > you have a counter, then constantly adjust the output based on the > time of arriving pulses? Yes. a variable for the period (inverse of frequency), and a counter for the phase. At each iteration the period is added to the phase counter. The phase counter is used to identify the windows for the pulses. When the leading edge of a pulse is detected, the amount of time before or after the nominal location in which the pulse is expected is the phase error. (Note that the absence of a pulse is not considered to have a phase error of zero.) For a second-order DPLL, the phase error is filtered to adjust both the period and the phase; the transfer functions of the filter are the critical adjustments. I had two coefficients I called alpha and beta. These were just my names for them; there are probably official names for them in control theory, but I haven't looked into what they would be. What I did was: period := period + alpha * phase_error; phase := phase + beta * phase_error; Both alpha and beta should be very small, e.g., under 0.01. For a first-order DPLL, beta would be zero. Non-zero beta provides for better tracking of instantaneous phase changes, but if it is too high, causes the jitter to have more effect on the period. Using control theory it is possible to do an analysis of the performance of the DPLL, but that seemed like too much work to me, so I just experimented with the parameters manually. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 11 14:11:58 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:11:58 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Take a look at some of the old Western Digitial FDC app notes, > particularly those for the 179x controllers for ideas on how data > separators can be implemented. > Note that the only data separator worth a damn in the WDC app note are the two that use PLLs. The most commonly used was the one in Figure 14 that uses a 74LS629 VCO and the phase comparator of the WD1691. The circuit by MPI in Figure 13 that uses an MC4024 VCO looks OK but I haven't seen it used. The rest are crap. Figure 11 uses a one-shot, and won't work reliably even for single density. It's comparable to the worthless data separator built into the 1771. Figure 12 uses a state machine and works approximately the same way the Apple II read state machine works. It's probably good enough for single density, but won't work reliably for double density. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 14:18:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:18:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fuses ans stuff was : Lightbulb police? In-Reply-To: <37A88520E093457292E1843C25D356B6@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jun 10, 10 10:31:22 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > Oh, it was wore thsn that. The projectile motion always invovled a > > parabolic trajectory. This assumes not only zero air > > resistance, but also > > uniform gravity acting vertically downwards -- in other words a flat > > earth. Which I don't believe in. > > Air resistance is ignored because otherwise the equations become too > complex. In any particular real world example that may or may not > lead to unacceptable errors. That is exactly my point. The system is oversimplified so you can solve it. But the simplified system is useless in the real world (air resistance most certainly does matter for projectile motion). It is just a game to get you to solve certain equations. While I have no objection with learning how to solve equations, dressing them up as being applciaable to a real world problem when they are not doesn't help anyone. > > The constant approximation is far less of a problem. The Earth's > radius is what ~6Mm, so even if your height changes by say 60m then > that's less than 1%. Not if the projectile happens to be a satellite :-) Which birngs me on to my next moan. All too often the subject is 'compartmentalised'. 'This is how to solve a projectile questio. This is how to solve a planet orbiting the earth. This is how to solbe...' When really the same laws (Newton's laws of motions _are_ a sufficiently good apperoxiamation IMHO) apply in all the cases. Understand the fundamental laws ansd you can solve just about any problem, even pone you've not been taught. > > The point is to teach you the simple case so that you understand it > and can move on to the complications later. There won't be a "later" > in A-level maths because there isn't enough time (you have to fit in > the rest of the course and the remaining A-levels). I am probably strange, but I've read books that support this view. Namely that for every subject there is a 'toy version' And actually it's much easier to learn the real subject properly than the toy version. It may appear to ne more complciated, but it isn't. An example : Some years ago I was interested in how telephone exchanges work -- the old step-by-step Strowger ones. I read a few simple books and couldn't understnad them at all. I actually thought it was beyond me. And then I bought the 2-volume set of 'Telephony' in a second hand bookshop. I didn't realise it at the time, but this was a book used by the telephone company (GPO) over here. Yes, iy's heavy going. Yes, it took mw several weeks to work through it. ut it made sense. The reason is that _every last relay_ is expaliend. There are complete schematics of telephone exchanges. There's nothing missed out. And that made sense to me. Just as the operation of a processor made sense to me when I battled through the P850 and PDP11/45 manuals and understood what every last gate did. > I don't recall whether I started solving stuff numerically at A-level > or at degree-level, I suspect the latter. However, I do recall that the Nor do I, bercuase I taught myself the 'interesting stuff' long before I whould have known about it. > I could complain that the basic electronics on my engineering science > course was pretty rudimentary and that the practicals were (in my view) > pretty basic. But there was a lot packed into the course and it > provided a foundation for many different areas. I don't think I could > be trusted to build a bridge now, but if I'd been that way inclined > I would have had enough of a grounding to get my foot in the door > somewhere. Sure, you need a 'gorunding', but it has to be a good grounding. One fundamental rule is that you should never learn something that you have to unlearn later. And that the gorunding should be logical and as complete as it can be, not a hotchpotch of unrelated stuff. Alas the pretend 'education' I got at school failed in all respects. Fortunately I had enough books to read up on the real version. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 14:21:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:21:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: <4C1161D5.1090207@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 10, 10 03:06:13 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Hmmm.. The only digital camera [1] I've seen inside seemed to contain a > > BGA packaged chip, another PQFP chip and some bits for the flash circuit. > > And the lense/CCD unit, of course. It didn't look very very repairable. > > > Just as repairable as any other piece of consumer electronics these Sure, which is one reason I don't have one. I can fix a Synchro-Compur shutter, but I have problems with custom ICs. But the OP said he bought a few non-working ones and fixed them, which suprised me... > days. As always, you have to have the right tools for the job. In this > case, the repair process generally requires a credit card. The problem with this method is that the credit card company then sends me something called a 'bill'. And that requires something called 'cash'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 14:24:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:24:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Jun 10, 10 06:18:21 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> I still miss Pilot. She was 24 when I lost her. > > > > That's a good age for a cat!. Pentina was only about 10-12 years old, but > > then he had cancer, alas. Smudge (neighbour's cat) was 26 when he passed > > away a couple of months back. > > My orange tabby "Yeti" (big feet!) lived to the ripe age of 19. She spent > the last 8 months of her life completely blind, yet still managed to I am sorry to hear he went blind. Cats need their senses... > navigate her way around the house by dead reckoning and whisker-sensing. YEs, they are pretty amazing creatures. Their wiskers can apparently detect very small air movements which helps them to hunt in poor light (even if their eyes are functioning properly). > > I still miss her. Cats are like members of the family, so believe me I > understand what you're feeling. > > My condolences. Thank you. As I said, he was a great companion to me. He enjoued watching me hacking. And I am pleased I gave him happiness. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 14:02:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:02:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C1138E2.4000706@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Jun 10, 10 02:11:30 pm Message-ID: > I'm really sorry to hear that Tony. We lost our grand-dog just a few > weeks ago at age 8, and we do miss her terribly. THank you. Pets really do become 'one of the family'. However, I am pleased I gave Pentina 7 years of happiness. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 15:14:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:14:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C125008.9060907@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 11, 10 10:02:32 am Message-ID: > Sorry to hear that, Tony. We've got three cats here and two dogs, and it'd be Thank you... It appears you collect pets like I collect HP destops... > hard losing any of them (we did lose a dog last year, and a cat the year > before that). I'm typing this* while trying to balance a spaniel in my lap Pentina never tried to sit on my lap. His trick was to dig his claws into my leg when I was trying to assembly something complciated and delicate. And I loved him for it. > I'd suggest checking freecycle for a cat or kitten when the time comes - I > always figure that the ones at pet shelters at least have some sort of chance, > but the freecycle freebies are the ones in real danger of being abandoned. Thansk, I didn;t realise that freecycle had pets listed on it. I will ook there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 14:54:50 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:54:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <4C118CA6.4040205@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jun 10, 10 07:08:54 pm Message-ID: > > Liam Proven wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 8:49 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> 'In ancient Egypt, cats were worshipped as gods. Cats have never > >> forgotten this' (I forget where that quote came from...) > > > > I believe it's Terry Pratchett, from /The Unadulterated Cat/. > > > My favorite cat quote of sorts. > > "The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter, > It isn't just one of your holiday games; > You may think at first I'm as mad as a hatter > When I tell you, a cat must have THREE DIFFERENT NAMES. > First of all, there's the name that... " > > The Naming Of Cats by T. S. Eliot. FWIW, I sometimes called Smudge (the neighbour's black nad white cat also shown in my photos on flickr) 'Bustopher Jones'. In his younger days he was 'remarkably fat' and had a 'coat or fastidious black' with 'white spats' Yes 'Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats' is one of the few non-technical books I own... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 15:02:36 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:02:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Jun 10, 10 07:00:34 pm Message-ID: > My condolences Tony, I do understand when ones feline partner passes away. Thank you. It is a great loss, I do miss him (of course). Yes, I do want somethign to demand food with menaces when I am trying to assemble some delicate piece of machinery, or solder some SMD components... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 15:11:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:11:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: <4C1232A2.8010203@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 11, 10 01:57:06 pm Message-ID: > In this case the cameras consisted of two PCBs -- the main board with > the CMOS sensor and controller chip, and a switch board with the mode > switch and power switch. What, no LCD display assembly? I would regard that as _essential_ on any digital camera I had to use. > > The cameras had been liquid-damaged and sold as a lot. I replaced a > couple of connectors, cleaned the PCBs, and managed to make a few good > cameras out of a box of bad ones. From the rest, I scavenged the lens > assembly and sensor. Those are in my junkbox waiting for a suitable Is it possible to get any data on the sensor? From what I recall, driving CCDs is 'fun' for suitable values of fun. The rise and fall times of the drive waveforms are critical, for example. > project... I'm thinking of strapping one to a P8079HP image intensifier > and building a night-vision camera of some description. The lenses are > "semi-fixed" focus -- you can refocus them by loosening a screw and > twisting the front of the lens, then replacing the locking screw. I once saw a digital camera wit ha 2-position focus control (normal and close-up). it dit appear to move the lens on a focussing mount. There was no autofocus, or anything like that. I wonder if you could use front-of-lence closeup lenses? The resolution of the sensor in such a caerma is not going to be great, so I doubt you'd notice any loss of qaulity. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 11 16:12:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:12:03 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2010 at 12:11, Eric Smith wrote: > Note that the only data separator worth a damn in the WDC app note are > the two that use PLLs. The most commonly used was the one in Figure > 14 that uses a 74LS629 VCO and the phase comparator of the WD1691. > The circuit by MPI in Figure 13 that uses an MC4024 VCO looks OK but I > haven't seen it used. The rest are crap. > > Figure 11 uses a one-shot, and won't work reliably even for single > density. It's comparable to the worthless data separator built into > the 1771. Figure 12 uses a state machine and works approximately the > same way the Apple II read state machine works. It's probably good > enough for single density, but won't work reliably for double density. There seems to have been a general move toward "good enough" in the early 80s. The first version of the IBM 5150 floppy controller used an IBM hybrid-packaged design; the second version used conventional TTL and a 4024 VCO that was good enough, but not as good as the first version. I think later controllers (as used in the 5170) used the all-digital WD9216 type of data seaparator. With the all-in-one FDCs (WD37C65, N82077), the question of data separator design became a nonstarter. Just plug it in with no adjustments needed. I suppose "good enough" accurately describes the Apple II scheme; "gutless wonder" would be another term that comes to mind. GCR with the only error conrol being a one-byte arithmetic checksum on each sector. Were there ever any "turbo" mods to run an Apple II at more than 2MHz without breaking the floppy logic? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 11 16:23:59 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:23:59 -0700 Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C12A96F.1010005@brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> As always, you have to have the right tools for the job. In this >> case, the repair process generally requires a credit card. >> Tony wrote: > The problem with this method is that the credit card company then sends > me something called a 'bill'. And that requires something called 'cash'. > "I don't carry cash any more, because it's too complicated... and I haven't got any." -- _TV or Not TV_, Peter Bergman From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 11 16:37:36 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:37:36 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C12ACA0.6010001@brouhaha.com> On 06/11/2010 02:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think later controllers (as used in the 5170) used the > all-digital WD9216 type of data seaparator. The SMC 9216 and 9229 (and the Western Digital second-source) are actually quite good. They use a DPLL. The 9239 uses an even better DPLL. > With the all-in-one FDCs > (WD37C65, N82077), the question of data separator design became a > nonstarter. Just plug it in with no adjustments needed. > Some of the all-in-ones used an analog PLL (notably the 279x), some a DPLL. I've never had any trouble with them, so I think they're probably designed reasonably well. > I suppose "good enough" accurately describes the Apple II scheme; > "gutless wonder" would be another term that comes to mind. I would argue that it's some of the best engineering ever, bearing in mind that all engineering involves tradeoffs. (I would argue that the essence of engineering is knowing how to make the tradeoff of getting the best design for the constraints, including the manufacturing cost.) The GCR is being done at effectively the single-density flux-transition timing, so doing a simple state-machine data separator (which is better than a one-shot but not as good as a PLL) is actually adequate. > GCR with > the only error conrol being a one-byte arithmetic checksum on each > sector. For a small sector size, a one-byte checksum isn't that bad. > Were there ever any "turbo" mods to run an Apple II at more > than 2MHz without breaking the floppy logic? > No. You can't even run at 2 MHz. The accelerators all slow down to normal Apple II speed (effectively 1.023 MHz average) for disk access. The final disk controller Apple offered for the Apple II, the one that could handle the high-density 3.5" "Apple Superdrive" (not to be confused with their later DVD "Superdrive"), used an on-board 6502 core, running at 2 MHz IIRC. Eric From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Jun 11 16:39:05 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suppose "good enough" accurately describes the Apple II scheme; > "gutless wonder" would be another term that comes to mind. GCR with > the only error conrol being a one-byte arithmetic checksum on each > sector. Were there ever any "turbo" mods to run an Apple II at more > than 2MHz without breaking the floppy logic? Weren't the Zip Chip and Rocket Chip good enough to not cause problems like that? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 11 16:43:12 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:43:12 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C12ADF0.9040900@brouhaha.com> On 06/11/2010 02:39 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Were there ever any "turbo" mods to run an Apple II at more >> than 2MHz without breaking the floppy logic? > > Weren't the Zip Chip and Rocket Chip good enough to not cause problems > like that? > Yes, by slowing the clock to normal speed for some interval after every access to the floppy controller I/O ports (usually C0E0..C0EF). Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 11 17:05:13 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 15:05:13 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C12ACA0.6010001@brouhaha.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C12ACA0.6010001@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C1250A9.6141.166C611@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2010 at 14:37, Eric Smith wrote: > I would argue that it's some of the best engineering ever, bearing in > mind that all engineering involves tradeoffs. (I would argue that the > essence of engineering is knowing how to make the tradeoff of getting > the best design for the constraints, including the manufacturing cost.) So the Commodore 1541 would, by that logic, be some of the worst engineering ever? (Consider the complexity of what's in the box that operates a single drive) :) Given that, then one could extrapolate that engineering has nothing whatever to do withe success or failure of a product. (Where's my Coleco ADAM?) --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 11 17:08:38 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 23:08:38 +0100 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C12B3E6.7070305@philpem.me.uk> On 10/06/10 23:13, Keith wrote: > My original microcontroller implementation was 3.2-4.2, 5.2-6.2, and > 7.2-8.2. You're using fixed-position analysis? That is, "if the pulse was between X and Y us after the last pulse, it was a 01" and so on? The problem with that is you'll have issues with Instantaneous Speed Variation (and possibly Continuous Speed Variation). Basically: * A floppy drive motor does not rotate at a constant speed. * Some drives are faster than others (this is CSV) * The friction between the disc and the head (and/or the disc liner) can, will and *does* make the motor slow down. The variations in this are called "ISV". This is why a PLL is required -- to keep track of the ISV and eliminate it (or get close to eliminating it) from the measurements. > My approach has been very successful(easily 95%+), but it makes me > wonder about Phil's DiscFerret dynamic adaptive approach where a sample > of the incoming data defines the ranges. DFA (DiscFerret Analyser) gets a similar success rate. I'm having issues setting the coefficients for the "soft-PLL" -- make the PLL too slow and it misses ISV, make it too fast and it'll track the data not the ISV. You could probably implement a version of the PLL from the WDC 1797 appnote if you wanted -- that should be fairly easy to do. Here are a few references which might help out: ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/m/mzenier/AN917.pdf -- Motorola AN917. This is read-channel stuff mostly, but IIRC it has a bit about encoding too. ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/m/mzenier/cd-8002-1.pdf -- "Encoding/Decoding Techniques Double Floppy Disc Capacity" by Hoeppner and Wall. Computer Design, Feb 1980. A great little introduction to MFM data storage. -- WD FD179x Application Notes. A couple of data separator designs, and some of the background info. Jim Thompson at Analog Innovations came up with a neat little data separator called a "phase jerked loop" -- this is the schematic of a PJL data separator, similar to the datasep engine used in the DiscFerret. Difference is that the DF's separator is a synchronous design, while the PJL is partially asynchronous. I seem to recall there being a (WD?) application note or datasheet that basically said one of the WD controller chips' built-in data separators shouldn't be used because it wasn't reliable... I wish I could find a reference for that.. :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 11 17:38:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 15:38:20 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C12B3E6.7070305@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C12B3E6.7070305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C12586C.6064.18516FE@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2010 at 23:08, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I seem to recall there being a (WD?) application note or datasheet > that basically said one of the WD controller chips' built-in data > separators shouldn't be used because it wasn't reliable... I wish I > could find a reference for that.. :) WD1771 application note, under "Data Seperation"(sic) "...and (sic) external data seperator (sic) is recommended." Actually, the number of (sics) in that AN probably sets some sort of record. And yet, I've run across several systems (wasn't the TRS-80 Mod I one of them?) that blithely ignored this recommendation. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 17:51:09 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:51:09 -0400 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C12BDDD.6040805@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suppose "good enough" accurately describes the Apple II scheme; > "gutless wonder" would be another term that comes to mind. GCR with > the only error conrol being a one-byte arithmetic checksum on each > sector. Were there ever any "turbo" mods to run an Apple II at more > than 2MHz without breaking the floppy logic? I don't know about the ][ itself, but the ZipChip accelerator for the //c runs at 4MHz with the floppy operating correctly. Peace... Sridhar From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jun 11 18:07:54 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:07:54 -0500 Subject: PS/2 model 77s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C12C1CA.7030200@vaxen.net> On 6/9/10 4:00 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, William Donzelli wrote: > >> I think these machines are all fitted with a pretty standard set of >> guts - I do not think you will find any weird cards or huge disks or >> anything. I have not tested these machines. Condition is so-so - about >> what you would expect from a warehouse. > > Actually I was thinking these might have some nice small disks. I have a > nice stash of 100MB and 200MB 1" high 3.5" SCSI HD's that came out of some > model of PS/2. I bought them 10+ years ago from someone that scrapped out a > whole pile of PS/2's. They're great for my PDP-11. Are these Model 77 or Model 77i? Good system, either way, but the 77i is IDE, not SCSI. Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 11 18:12:08 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 19:12:08 -0400 Subject: PS/2 model 77s In-Reply-To: <4C12C1CA.7030200@vaxen.net> References: <4C12C1CA.7030200@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4C12C2C8.8090001@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Are these Model 77 or Model 77i? > > Good system, either way, but the 77i is IDE, not SCSI. There are actually even more categories than that. There were the standard 77, the 77 Executive, the 77 Ultimedia, the 77i and the 77i Ultimedia. I believe, but am not sure, that there were similar categories for the 76 and 56/57 (although I don't think there was a "57 Executive"). Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 11 18:18:34 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 16:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C1250A9.6141.166C611@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jun 11, 10 03:05:13 pm" Message-ID: <201006112318.o5BNIYbO014666@floodgap.com> > > I would argue that it's some of the best engineering ever, bearing in > > mind that all engineering involves tradeoffs. (I would argue that the > > essence of engineering is knowing how to make the tradeoff of getting > > the best design for the constraints, including the manufacturing cost.) > > So the Commodore 1541 would, by that logic, be some of the worst > engineering ever? (Consider the complexity of what's in the box that > operates a single drive) :) I don't remember who said it, but I recall someone(tm) (Bob Russell?) once observing that the 1541 disk drive was the best computer Commodore ever made. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm taking punk totem pole carving." ----- From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jun 11 18:19:20 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:19:20 -0500 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C12C478.1050106@vaxen.net> On 6/10/10 1:53 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:13:32 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > >> Oh, Pentinal liked curling up on service manuals, particuarly HP ones (I >> have no idea why) -- and especially if I needed the manual tofix >> soemthing. Of course he ruled the house (he was a _cat_) so several times >> I had to hold up my hacking until he moved. > > Dogs may have owners, but Cats have staff, as it should be :) The Dog: "They feed me, keep me warm, give me toys to play with, and pet me... they must be gods!" The Cat: "They feed me, keep me warm, give me toys to play with, and pet me... I must be a god!" Doc From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jun 11 18:21:54 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:21:54 -0500 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C12C512.6070903@vaxen.net> On 6/10/10 1:53 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 19:13:32 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > >> Oh, Pentinal liked curling up on service manuals, particuarly HP ones (I >> have no idea why) -- and especially if I needed the manual tofix >> soemthing. Of course he ruled the house (he was a _cat_) so several times >> I had to hold up my hacking until he moved. > > Dogs may have owners, but Cats have staff, as it should be :) Also, sorry, Tony, for your loss. Been there, done that, and probably will again sooner than I want to. A friend is a friend, no matter where their hair grows. Losing one sucks. Doc From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 11 18:26:18 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 00:26:18 +0100 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <247609.65676.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C12C61A.8090901@philpem.me.uk> On 10/06/10 19:53, Bob Bradlee wrote: > Dogs may have owners, but Cats have staff, as it should be :) Dogs: "He gives me food, therefore he must be God." Cats: "He gives me food, therefore *I* must be God." Then there's "Egyptians worshipped cats for thousands of years. Cats have never forgotten this." Pretty much sums it up IMO :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 11 19:28:43 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 01:28:43 +0100 Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C12D4BB.5000106@philpem.me.uk> On 11/06/10 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: >> In this case the cameras consisted of two PCBs -- the main board with >> the CMOS sensor and controller chip, and a switch board with the mode >> switch and power switch. > > What, no LCD display assembly? I would regard that as _essential_ on any > digital camera I had to use. Yes there was an LCD... soldered onto the main board. > Is it possible to get any data on the sensor? From what I recall, driving > CCDs is 'fun' for suitable values of fun. The rise and fall times of the > drive waveforms are critical, for example. These things used OmniVision CMOS sensors -- as I recall, they're a lot easier to deal with than CCDs. Nowhere near as easy to use as, say, a Mitsubishi Artificial Retina (the chip that was used in the Gameboy Camera) but still not bad. Only problem is that OVT have gotten very skittish about giving out datasheets -- they used to have a huge bundle of downloadable datasheets, appnotes and so forth on their website, including (IIRC) sample code. Now everything's under an NDA, and you have to commit to buying several thousand chips per month before they'll even talk to you. The Micron and Kodak image sensors have a nicer interface than the OVT chips (and they'll give out datasheets free for the asking) but I haven't managed to find a UK distributor for them. Digikey stock a few of them, but the really cool $100 high-speed camera chip (something like 500FPS but only at 640x480 or so resolution) seems to have been ditched. Shame really, I'd have bought a couple. I've actually got a lead on a box of ten 640x480 18-bit-colour TFT panels, complete with backlight inverter. 90 Euros for the whole box, including shipping from Spain. Pennies on the pound, literally (they're NEC panels, and the RRP in that quantity is about ?80!). Piss easy to drive with an FPGA or some TTL if you're that way inclined. You basically need a dual port RAM (or a single port with a bus arbiter), one counter that goes up to 320 and another that goes up to 240. Annoyingly the touchscreen panels cost more than the LCDs -- ?15.74 each plus VAT, and they're "last time buy, all sales final" so I'll probably be getting at least one for each TFT and a spare or two... The idea was to have a handheld device running a standard-ish CPU, then give it all the basic I/O you'd need to talk to test equipment. GPIB/HPIB, serial IEC, RS232, SB-bus, ... and a Microchip wireless transceiver (specifically, the one with the built-in Zigbee/MiWi PHY/MAC). Add a Tek 4014 emulator, a digital pattern generator and a logic analyser, and I'm in heaven :) > I once saw a digital camera wit ha 2-position focus control (normal and > close-up). it dit appear to move the lens on a focussing mount. There was > no autofocus, or anything like that. That's pretty much what these were, only without the focus switch. > I wonder if you could use front-of-lence closeup lenses? The resolution > of the sensor in such a caerma is not going to be great, so I doubt you'd > notice any loss of qaulity. Probably. The macro mode on most decent digicams should do it as well. Canon PowerShot and Ixus (IIRC these are rebranded as "Elph" for the US market) cameras seem to be pretty good -- down to less than 1cm with full AF in most cases. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 11 19:41:27 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 01:41:27 +0100 Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: <4C12A96F.1010005@brouhaha.com> References: <4C12A96F.1010005@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C12D7B7.7080602@philpem.me.uk> On 11/06/10 22:23, Eric Smith wrote: > "I don't carry cash any more, because it's too complicated... and I > haven't got any." > -- _TV or Not TV_, Peter Bergman Sounds about right. I've got a pretty-much-done PCB design for the DiscFerret, but the production run is "on hold" because I'm basically skint.... and I've got other projects demanding my attention too (mostly by way of "look! if you don't buy these parts you need NOW, you won't EVER be able to buy them!"). Ack. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 11 20:01:03 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: <4C12D4BB.5000106@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C12D4BB.5000106@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100611173912.M12680@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I once saw a digital camera wit ha 2-position focus control (normal and > > close-up). it dit appear to move the lens on a focussing mount. There was > > no autofocus, or anything like that. Anything that increases the lens to sensor distance will decrease the distance between camera and subject. Short focal length lenses need less movement, and have a wider range of "acceptable" focus. > That's pretty much what these were, only without the focus switch. > > I wonder if you could use front-of-lence closeup lenses? The resolution > > of the sensor in such a caerma is not going to be great, so I doubt you'd > > notice any loss of qaulity. Yes. With on the front of the lens "close-up" of "portra" lenses, it will focus on a closer distance. With some loss of lens sharpness. > Probably. The macro mode on most decent digicams should do it as well. The "slose-up" lenses will work on the INdecent ones even without a "macro" (close-focussing) mode. If you need good quality pictures of paperwork or circuitboards, get something that will focus close, preferably with a "flat-field" lens (such as a cheap enlarger lens) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 11 20:05:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:05:02 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C12ACA0.6010001@brouhaha.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C12ACA0.6010001@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C127ACE.21907.20B64A5@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jun 2010 at 14:37, Eric Smith wrote: > No. You can't even run at 2 MHz. The accelerators all slow down to > normal Apple II speed (effectively 1.023 MHz average) for disk access. Right. Looking back at my "Understanding the Apple IIe", the sequencer runs at 2MHz and the 6502, half that. But the recording wasn't what I'd call "single density", which to me implies FM. It's definitely 5-of-8 or 6-of-8 GCR. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 11 22:58:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:58:49 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C12A389.26669.2AA7F0E@cclist.sydex.com> Here's a great document that addresses the floppy data separator in detail: http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/industry/appnotes/Natsemi/AN-505.pdf Weird that it's not on the National site--but here it is, from India, no less. Wonder if someone could lean on the suits at National to leave all of their old app notes online? It can't use that much space and there's a lot of good information in them, even the old ones. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 11 23:30:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:30:32 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C12AAF8.21167.2C788A6@cclist.sydex.com> Here's another paper that concerns itself with the design of a digital data separator: http://hungngo-asic-design.tripod.com/Chip_Tech_HDD_paper.pdf --Chuck From bqt at softjar.se Fri Jun 11 09:10:46 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:10:46 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1243E6.9020500@softjar.se> Ben wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > The system calls, information about file system stuff, and all other >> > information you need to write programs in assembler is documented in the >> > OS/8 SOFTWARE SUPPORT MANUAL >> > Don't know if it's available online, but I would suspect so. > > It is online, and as scanned text file. It printed out rather > clean on the laser with only a few blank pages. Saw that later. Good. That means you have everything you need. >> > Johnny >> > > The important thing is got windows ( hyper-term ) and the > SBC6120 with k12mit ( Kermit ) talking to each other today. > The PDP 8 was promoted as paper tape system, and it is > harder to think of communicating with it remotely. > I still will do most of my editing in DOS box, since the line > editor is pain to use with the PDP 8. Why use a line editor? There are several full screen editors for OS/8. Really fast and nice ones. Johnny From wysoft at hotmail.com Fri Jun 11 15:02:41 2010 From: wysoft at hotmail.com (Jeff Wyman) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:02:41 +0000 Subject: Cromemco Z2-D system and accessories in Seattle, WA - Wish to donate Message-ID: Greetings, I'm posting here to inquire about the possibility of someone wanting to take this old Cromemco off my hands. I appreciate all that it is, and it has some family history behind it, but no one else in my family seems to want it, and it's far beyond my era of interest, so... Here we are. The system itself is in good physical shape - no damage, structural or cosmetic. My late uncle also built a wooden rolling base for the system, which includes additional power outlets for peripherals, and a remote reset switch. He developed software for Boeing on this machine, and I imagine it was pressed a lot. Based on the advice of others, to avoid damage to the unit I have not powered on the unit or plugged it in. Hardware installed in unit: CPU board, 4FDC, 8PIO, two 64KZ boards Additional hardware, still in boxes: 16-FDC, four 16KZ boards, two WANGCO floppy drives Zenith Z-29 terminal is also included if you wish, though I had originally intended to keep it. I used it over a year ago to do VAX stuff, and it still worked. There is also a printed manual. Printed and bound documentation: Word Processing System, Cromix Operating System, Database Management System, Cromemco Extended BASIC, Z-80 Macro Assembler, Link and Lib, CDOS, FORTRAN IV, Cromemco System & Components, Cromemco Trace System Simulator, Zilog Z-80 Tech Reference There's also a huge stack of assorted manuals, catalogs, etc. My uncle really kept everything. Also included are a fair amount of my uncle's scribblings and notes, some of which might be helpful to you. Software (almost too much to list): CDOS 2.36, CDOS 2.54, Z80 Macro Assembler, Word Processing System 4.06 & 6.0, FORTRAN & utilities, CROMIX, Database Management System 3.05, Database Report Language 1.0, Relocatable Assembler, BASIC 5.2, 16K Extended BASIC, COBOL, Database 0.02 (?), Drivers (?) I'll gladly snap photos if you wish. I would really, really like to avoid having to dispose of this stuff. I never knew my uncle, but if I hadn't taken this stuff from where it sat for the past twenty years in my grandmother's basement, it would have ended up in the trash. Hopefully someone here can make good use of it. I'm in Bremerton, WA. I'll drive to meet you within a reasonable distance. Please let me know if you have any additional questions. Thanks, Jeff _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sat Jun 12 07:15:34 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 22:15:34 +1000 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? Message-ID: I "imaged" (via SIMH/Linux [*]) a Quantum SCSI drive with RSTS/E and connected to the RQZX1 and via the built-in configuration menu able to see the drive (drive label appears at the correct SCSI ID) and run the "read" diagnostics successfully. But using the KDJ11-E boot menu I get an error "10 - Drive not ready" - is there something I need to do in the KDJ11-E or the RQZX1 that I have overlooked? Any ideas would be appreciated. I now have access to the KDJ11-E manual thanks to Bitsavers. But no documentation on the RQZX1, other than what I can glean from the built-in menus. [*] SYSGEN'd and then "dd" the resulting file to the drive. If I "od -o" the drive I can see location 0 and 2 have the DEC boot signature. RQZX1 SCSI Host Adapter Monitor Software Rev 2.2 23-Jun-1993 (C) Digital Equipment Corporation 1992 Hardware Rev L ***************************** Q-bus Configuration ****************************** * * * DMA : Burst length : 01 CSR0 : 172150 MSCP * * Block length : 08 CSR1 : 174500 TMSCP * * Burst delay : 01 * 1.6 us * * * * LUN CSR Mode Drive no. Start LBN End LBN Device Type * * ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- * * DU 0 0 MSCP SCSI ID 0 0000000000 0004124732 Disk * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Type Control-Z or to return to previous menu * * * ******************************************************************************** From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Jun 12 09:42:18 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:42:18 -0500 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <201006112318.o5BNIYbO014666@floodgap.com> References: <4C1250A9.6141.166C611@cclist.sydex.com> <201006112318.o5BNIYbO014666@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201006121453.o5CErGqP093079@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 06:18 PM 6/11/2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >I don't remember who said it, but I recall someone(tm) (Bob Russell?) once >observing that the 1541 disk drive was the best computer Commodore ever made. I remember (Amiga's) Jim Mackraz repeating that. I also remember pulling a dissected 1541 from the Dumpster when Amiga Corp. Los Gatos closed. - John From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Jun 12 10:12:43 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:12:43 -0500 Subject: looking for a working 11/05 (KD11-B) board set In-Reply-To: References: <4C033D64.3050507@neurotica.com> <4C03CC12.5070101@jetnet.ab.ca> <4C0444DB.8040401@tx.rr.com> <4C051158.10201@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C13A3EB.2060505@ubanproductions.com> My 11/05 was not working when I bought it and I would like to find a known good board set so that I can verify functionality of the rest of the machine and then possibly diagnose the defective board set. Does anyone have a known good KD11-B board set (M7260, M7261) which they would be willing to part with? --tnx --tom From bear at typewritten.org Sat Jun 12 11:36:41 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:36:41 -0700 Subject: Cromemco Z2-D system and accessories in Seattle, WA - Wish to donate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <260924DE-6FFB-491F-ABE1-9C9C5320C958@typewritten.org> On Jun 11, 2010, at 1:02 PM, Jeff Wyman wrote: > I'm posting here to inquire about the possibility of someone wanting > to take this old Cromemco off my hands. I appreciate all that it is, > and it has some family history behind it, but no one else in my > family seems to want it, and it's far beyond my era of interest, > so... Here we are. Jeff, I would be very happy to give this machine a good home. I am in Seattle, and am coming to Kitsap county on Sunday to visit my folks, even. My dad was friends with a Don Wyman in the '80s. Any relation? ok bear (206) 383-8334 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 12 12:11:43 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:11:43 -0700 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What version of RSTS/E, and does it support the RQZX1? I think that support might have come with 10.1. I'm not sure if anyone has actually attempted what you're doing, some of us were discussing this a year or two ago, but I know I've not had time to try it. What I have done was take an image created on either SIMH or E11 (I'm pretty sure I was using SIMH), put RT-11 on it, written that out to a CD-R, and booted and installed from that. I've done the same with RSX-11M+. IIRC, I was unable to successfully boot the RSTS/E CD. I'm using a Viking QDT SCSI controller. My *theory* for the HD is to first use dd to create a disk image, then install RSTS/E on that disk image, and dd it back to the HD. Of course you may simply have some sort of hardware issue going on there as well, I'm not familiar with the RQZX1. Zane At 10:15 PM +1000 6/12/10, Nigel Williams wrote: >I "imaged" (via SIMH/Linux [*]) a Quantum SCSI drive with RSTS/E and >connected to the RQZX1 and via the built-in configuration menu able to >see the drive (drive label appears at the correct SCSI ID) and run the >"read" diagnostics successfully. > >But using the KDJ11-E boot menu I get an error "10 - Drive not ready" >- is there something I need to do in the KDJ11-E or the RQZX1 that I >have overlooked? > >Any ideas would be appreciated. I now have access to the KDJ11-E >manual thanks to Bitsavers. But no documentation on the RQZX1, other >than what I can glean from the built-in menus. > >[*] SYSGEN'd and then "dd" the resulting file to the drive. If I "od >-o" the drive I can see location 0 and 2 have the DEC boot signature. > >RQZX1 SCSI Host Adapter Monitor Software Rev 2.2 23-Jun-1993 >(C) Digital Equipment Corporation 1992 Hardware Rev L > >***************************** Q-bus Configuration >****************************** >* >* >* DMA : Burst length : 01 CSR0 : 172150 MSCP >* >* Block length : 08 CSR1 : 174500 >TMSCP * >* Burst delay : 01 * 1.6 us >* >* >* >* LUN CSR Mode Drive no. Start LBN End LBN >Device Type * >* >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >* >* DU 0 0 MSCP SCSI ID 0 0000000000 0004124732 Disk >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* >* Type Control-Z or to return to previous menu >* >* >* >******************************************************************************** -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 12 12:33:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <201006121453.o5CErGqP093079@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C1250A9.6141.166C611@cclist.sydex.com> <201006112318.o5BNIYbO014666@floodgap.com> <201006121453.o5CErGqP093079@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20100612103111.O42606@shell.lmi.net> > observing that the 1541 disk drive was the best computer Commodore ever made. I remember hearing that the Laserwriter was the fastest, most powerful computer that Apple made. While not fast, nor powerful, the model M keyboard was the best product that IBM made. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 12 13:22:45 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 11:22:45 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C12BDDD.6040805@gmail.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C12BDDD.6040805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C13D075.9080500@brouhaha.com> On 06/11/2010 03:51 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > I don't know about the ][ itself, but the ZipChip accelerator for the > //c runs at 4MHz with the floppy operating correctly. Maybe when accessing a 3.5" drive, I'm not sure, but it slows down to 1 MHz to access 5.25" drives. From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sat Jun 12 13:50:13 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:50:13 +0200 Subject: Diloq MQ 606 manual wanted Message-ID: <4C13D6E5.1040507@bluewin.ch> I would like to reuse some former PC MFM drives for use in a PDP11, with a Dilog MQ606 controller. Anyone know of an online manual on this controller ? Jos From ken at seefried.com Sat Jun 12 13:50:33 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:50:33 -0400 Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C13D6F9.2030402@seefried.com> I lost Fleabag, my 20-something year old cat and last pet I had since college days on the 31st. So...right there with you. KJ From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jun 12 13:53:53 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:53:53 -0400 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C13D7C1.1040905@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You should set your sights higher--you should be able to read 100% of > the floppies that are readable by the Commodore drive and a few that > the Commodore drive can't. > > If you think about it a bit, you can do a substantially better job > with "problem disks'. You're absolutely right, and this is why I'm posting. :) A lot of the datasheets, and app notes, etc are just slightly beyond my current experience. I'm working on it. :) Thanks for the comments. Keith From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 12 13:57:25 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 11:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SuperKIM Message-ID: <201006121857.o5CIvPRF017382@floodgap.com> I'm cleaning out my closet and came upon (again) one of my collector's mysteries, a microproducts (sic) Superkim (or SuperKIM). This appears to be an evaluation board (everything is socketed) that slots into a larger chassis. It has a Rockwell 6502 and several 6522s, and a tremendous amount of wirewrap on the bottom which may be after the fact. Anyone ever encountered one of these? I have the manual for it but it seems to be more of an experimenter's board rather than a substitute for the KIM like the AIM-65. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't Be Evil. -- Paul Buchheit -------------------------------------------- From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jun 12 14:18:30 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 15:18:30 -0400 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C12AAF8.21167.2C788A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net> <4C12AAF8.21167.2C788A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C13DD86.2040306@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Here's another paper that concerns itself with the design of a > digital data separator: > > http://hungngo-asic-design.tripod.com/Chip_Tech_HDD_paper.pdf > > --Chuck > > Thanks Chuck for the links. Keith From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 12 14:22:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:22:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <201006112318.o5BNIYbO014666@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 11, 10 04:18:34 pm Message-ID: > I don't remember who said it, but I recall someone(tm) (Bob Russell?) once > observing that the 1541 disk drive was the best computer Commodore ever made. Surely that should be said about something like the 8050, which had a pair of 6502s inside, with shared memeory (its used the trick that the 6502 onlt accesses memeory druing one state of the clock line, so by inverting the clock signal to one of the procerssors, they can trivially share memeory. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 12 14:25:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:25:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <4C12C512.6070903@vaxen.net> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 11, 10 06:21:54 pm Message-ID: > > Dogs may have owners, but Cats have staff, as it should be :) Or as I once saw on somebody's front door 'Here lives a cat and his domestic staff' :-) > > Also, sorry, Tony, for your loss. Been there, done that, and Thank you. > probably will again sooner than I want to. A friend is a friend, no > matter where their hair grows. Losing one sucks. It is a terrivle loss, of course. I do miss him, and I will never forget him. Cats really are chaacters :-) But as I seaid before, I am pleased I could give him 7 years of pleasure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 12 14:34:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:34:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: <20100611173912.M12680@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 11, 10 06:01:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 12 Jun 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > I once saw a digital camera wit ha 2-position focus control (normal and > > > close-up). it dit appear to move the lens on a focussing mount. There was > > > no autofocus, or anything like that. > > Anything that increases the lens to sensor distance will decrease the > distance between camera and subject. Short focal length lenses need less > movement, and have a wider range of "acceptable" focus. Of course. This applies to any camera, digital or not. For many SLR camera systems there are 'extension tubes' which fit between the lens unit and the camera body, for close-up work. > > > I wonder if you could use front-of-lence closeup lenses? The resolution > > > of the sensor in such a caerma is not going to be great, so I doubt you'd > > > notice any loss of qaulity. > > Yes. With on the front of the lens "close-up" of "portra" lenses, it will > focus on a closer distance. With some loss of lens sharpness. YEs. I suspect that with these cheap digital cameras, the loss of sharpness will not be noticeable. > > > Probably. The macro mode on most decent digicams should do it as well. > > The "slose-up" lenses will work on the INdecent ones even without a > "macro" (close-focussing) mode. that was the reason for my comment. A decent digital caemra has no problem taking a useful picture of a PCB or some other small part of a classic computer. These cheap ones probalby do. But a closeup lense fixed in front of the camera lens would probably help. > > If you need good quality pictures of paperwork or circuitboards, get > something that will focus close, preferably with a "flat-field" lens (such > as a cheap enlarger lens) The other trick, if you can do it is to fit the lens back-to-front. Most camera lenses are designed to work with a larger object than image distance. Byu turning it round you reverse this, which is a help for the short object distances in close-ups. A few cameras (the Rollei SL66 being the obvious one) were designed to work like this. The problem is that you genrally loose all automatic coupling to the lens, which means it's not a lot of use with modern electronically-controlled cmaeras. The Praktica PLC/VLC series had a special pair of afapater rings to maintain full aperture metering even when the lens was fitted backwards, but I've not seen this for anything remotely modern. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 12 14:39:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:39:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <20100612103111.O42606@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 12, 10 10:33:57 am Message-ID: > I remember hearing that the Laserwriter was the fastest, most powerful > computer that Apple made. I beelvie that was true at one time. The Laserwriter had a 68000 clocked at 12MHz, whilethe Macs of the period had 68000s clocked at 8MHz > While not fast, nor powerful, the model M keyboard was the best product > that IBM made. That's a very strong claim,; IBM must have made many thousands of different products over the years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 12 14:40:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:40:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pentina In-Reply-To: <4C13D6F9.2030402@seefried.com> from "KJ Seefried" at Jun 12, 10 02:50:33 pm Message-ID: > > I lost Fleabag, my 20-something year old cat and last pet I had since He lived to agood age :-). > college days on the 31st. So...right there with you. Thank you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 12 14:36:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:36:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for a working 11/05 (KD11-B) board setu In-Reply-To: <4C13A3EB.2060505@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Jun 12, 10 10:12:43 am Message-ID: > > My 11/05 was not working when I bought it and I would like > to find a known good board set so that I can verify functionality > of the rest of the machine and then possibly diagnose the defective > board set. > > Does anyone have a known good KD11-B board set (M7260, M7261) which > they would be willing to part with? I rteally don't see what goof a working processor board set will do... What is the machine doing or not doing? Have you checked all the power lines (at least the +5V and -15V) at the backplane? Can you do anything from the front panel? Read/write memory? -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 12 17:09:09 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 15:09:09 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C127ACE.21907.20B64A5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C12ACA0.6010001@brouhaha.com> <4C127ACE.21907.20B64A5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C140585.5090906@brouhaha.com> On 06/11/2010 06:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11 Jun 2010 at 14:37, Eric Smith wrote: > > >> No. You can't even run at 2 MHz. The accelerators all slow down to >> normal Apple II speed (effectively 1.023 MHz average) for disk access. >> > Right. Looking back at my "Understanding the Apple IIe", the > sequencer runs at 2MHz and the 6502, half that. But the recording > wasn't what I'd call "single density", which to me implies FM. > I never said it was. I said that it used the same flux-transition timing as single density, thus the requirements for a reliable data separator are more akin to those of single density than double density. Eric From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Jun 12 17:43:26 2010 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:43:26 EDT Subject: PS/2 model 77s Message-ID: In a message dated 6/11/2010 7:08:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, doc at vaxen.net writes: On 6/9/10 4:00 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >> On Wed, 9 Jun 2010, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> I think these machines are all fitted with a pretty standard set of >>> guts - I do not think you will find any weird cards or huge disks or >>> anything. I have not tested these machines. Condition is so-so - about >>> what you would expect from a warehouse. >> >> Actually I was thinking these might have some nice small disks. I have a >> nice stash of 100MB and 200MB 1" high 3.5" SCSI HD's that came out of some >> model of PS/2. I bought them 10+ years ago from someone that scrapped out a >> whole pile of PS/2's. They're great for my PDP-11. > Are these Model 77 or Model 77i? > Good system, either way, but the 77i is IDE, not SCSI. For the mod 77, there are two planars used. The Bermuda for the SCSI models and Lacuna for the IDE type. From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jun 12 20:21:39 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 21:21:39 -0400 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C12B3E6.7070305@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> <4C12B3E6.7070305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C1432A3.10108@verizon.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 10/06/10 23:13, Keith wrote: >> My original microcontroller implementation was 3.2-4.2, 5.2-6.2, and >> 7.2-8.2. > > You're using fixed-position analysis? That is, "if the pulse was between > X and Y us after the last pulse, it was a 01" and so on? Phil, I don't know what's it's technically called, but yes. As I mentioned, it actually works pretty well. I open up the intervals and make it pretty liberal on what it accepts. As far as I know, I don't think I've opened them up enough that I incorrectly categorize a pulse incorrectly. But I am starting to be close to that, and there's likely a reason why everyone here (and most commercial FDCs) implement some type of PLL. I'm definitely up for increasing the robustness of my project. > The problem with that is you'll have issues with Instantaneous Speed > Variation (and possibly Continuous Speed Variation). Basically: > > * A floppy drive motor does not rotate at a constant speed. > * Some drives are faster than others (this is CSV) > * The friction between the disc and the head (and/or the disc liner) > can, will and *does* make the motor slow down. The variations in this > are called "ISV". I've read about these before. When you say the drive motor doesn't rotate at a constant speed, you mean that despite it having an average of 300 rpm, that there is some speed up and slow down throughout a single revolution? I've measured time between index pulses, and so far they appear to be 200.x ms. I've seen this called MSV, motor speed variation, too. (In the AN-505 PDF) AN-505 also says MSV is 1-2% and 1-2% for ISV. > This is why a PLL is required -- to keep track of the ISV and eliminate > it (or get close to eliminating it) from the measurements. My original plan was that these variations could be accounted for with simply expanding my tolerances. And there's no doubt that my method does handle _some_ of this. I can handle 5-10% differences pretty easily. The worst cases though definitely reveal the lack of more intelligent handling. > DFA (DiscFerret Analyser) gets a similar success rate. I'm having issues > setting the coefficients for the "soft-PLL" -- make the PLL too slow and > it misses ISV, make it too fast and it'll track the data not the ISV. Do you have your code up someplace? Verilog or VHDL? Thanks for all the links, they should be valuable. I'm still working on the basic concepts of a PLL. Once I get a better handle, I think writing the code for a basic one should be within my reach. Thanks Keith From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Jun 12 20:21:25 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 18:21:25 -0700 Subject: looking for a working 11/05 (KD11-B) board setu In-Reply-To: References: <4C13A3EB.2060505@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Jun 12, 10 10:12:43 am, Message-ID: Tony has a good point here: it's usually the support stuff (power supplies, connectors) that bugger up a machine of this simplicity. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 12:36 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: looking for a working 11/05 (KD11-B) board setu > > My 11/05 was not working when I bought it and I would like > to find a known good board set so that I can verify functionality > of the rest of the machine and then possibly diagnose the defective > board set. > > Does anyone have a known good KD11-B board set (M7260, M7261) which > they would be willing to part with? I rteally don't see what goof a working processor board set will do... What is the machine doing or not doing? Have you checked all the power lines (at least the +5V and -15V) at the backplane? Can you do anything from the front panel? Read/write memory? -tony From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jun 12 21:03:48 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 22:03:48 -0400 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C128795.2040905@brouhaha.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> <4C116B2D.1020204@brouhaha.com> <4C126D0D.1040309@verizon.net> <4C128795.2040905@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C143C84.9040506@verizon.net> Eric Smith wrote: > On 06/11/2010 10:06 AM, Keith M wrote: >> Can you please give me an approximate idea of how you did this? Did >> you have a counter, then constantly adjust the output based on the >> time of arriving pulses? Eric, thanks for the detailed response. I'm still new to many of the concepts so please bear with me. > Yes. a variable for the period (inverse of frequency), and a counter > for the phase. At each iteration the period is added to the phase > counter. The phase counter is used to identify the windows for the > pulses. So my nominal frequency is 500khz, with my period being 2us. The actual window is the duration in which if a pulse occurs within it, it produces a valid raw mfm bit(aka a '1' bit)? And if no pulse is received in that window, then we assume a '0' bit? So then how big would my window be? 2us? The pulse produced by most drives are around 250-350ns. When you say at each iteration, do you mean each received pulse? I'm working with a 50mhz system clock, so my clock ticks are at 20ns. If we are adding the period to phase counter, then it sounds like the phase counter would be decrementing. We want to detect the edge in the middle of the window, so the trigger point for "window open" might be 0+(1/2 window size), with the "window closed" point being at 0-(1/2 window size) or something. > When the leading edge of a pulse is detected, the amount of > time before or after the nominal location in which the pulse is expected > is the phase error. Makes sense. > (Note that the absence of a pulse is not considered > to have a phase error of zero.) I really have to do more reading on this. > For a second-order DPLL, the phase > error is filtered to adjust both the period and the phase; the transfer > functions of the filter are the critical adjustments. > > I had two coefficients I called alpha and beta. These were just my > names for them; there are probably official names for them in control > theory, but I haven't looked into what they would be. What I did was: > > period := period + alpha * phase_error; > phase := phase + beta * phase_error; And so your alpha and beta just prevent a large phase error from immediately throwing around the window. It takes many similar large phase errors to adjust the window by the whole phase error amount. If my period is already adjusted for the phase error, and added to the phase counter, why are we now modifying the phase counter again with phase error? We modify the long term period (frequency) AND make sure that the current cycle gets the adjustment too? Thanks Keith From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 13 00:41:15 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 22:41:15 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C143C84.9040506@verizon.net> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> <4C116B2D.1020204@brouhaha.com> <4C126D0D.1040309@verizon.net> <4C128795.2040905@brouhaha.com> <4C143C84.9040506@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C146F7B.3020204@brouhaha.com> On 06/12/2010 07:03 PM, Keith wrote: > So then how big would my window be? 2us? For adjusting the PLL, you can interpret the window as zero-length. The leading edge of the pulse is always either before or after the window by some length. However, you're doing some sort of time quantization, so there will be some point at which you can't tell which, so you consider the error to be zero. > The pulse produced by most drives are around 250-350ns. The pulse width doesn't tell you anything. Only the leading edge of the pulse is significant. The drive electronics has a one-shot that generates the pulse when it sees a flux transition. > When you say at each iteration, do you mean each received pulse? No. The PLL is free-running. There is a pulse window every 2 us (or whatever), so the PLL period is going to be approximately 2 us. >> (Note that the absence of a pulse is not considered to have a phase >> error of zero.) > > I really have to do more reading on this. I got an extra "not" in there. The absence of a pulse has an effective phase error of zero; it doesn't cause any adjustment to the PLL. > > If my period is already adjusted for the phase error, and added to the > phase counter, why are we now modifying the phase counter again with > phase error? We modify the long term period (frequency) AND make sure > that the current cycle gets the adjustment too? To better track ISV. However, setting beta to zero may be reasonable. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 13 01:21:36 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 23:21:36 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C146F7B.3020204@brouhaha.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C143C84.9040506@verizon.net>, <4C146F7B.3020204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C141680.2114.325B53B@cclist.sydex.com> It should be observed that the typical "time since last pulse" sort of data collection done by most of these things (e.g. Catweasel) and inerpreted by a "threshold" sort of algorithm does constittute a PLL of sorts, since phase errors tend to self-correct long-term speed variations (i.e. every sample is relative only to the previous one). In other words, if the drive is spinning too slowly and pulses (1t, 1.5t and 2t for MFM) come a bit late, the error isn't cumulative. FWIW, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 13 02:03:55 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:03:55 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C141680.2114.325B53B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C143C84.9040506@verizon.net>, <4C146F7B.3020204@brouhaha.com> <4C141680.2114.325B53B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C1482DB.6030802@brouhaha.com> On 06/12/2010 11:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It should be observed that the typical "time since last pulse" sort > of data collection done by most of these things (e.g. Catweasel) and > inerpreted by a "threshold" sort of algorithm does constittute a PLL > of sorts, since phase errors tend to self-correct long-term speed > variations (i.e. every sample is relative only to the previous one). > > In other words, if the drive is spinning too slowly and pulses (1t, > 1.5t and 2t for MFM) come a bit late, the error isn't cumulative. > It's not a PLL since it doesn't even try to adjust the frequency to maintain phase lock. It only changes the instantaneous phase. There's no "Loop" in it, nor "Lock". Eric From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jun 12 19:58:51 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 17:58:51 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C142D4B.1020304@jwsss.com> I went and looked at this today. The guy thinks someone is coming from "up north" to pay $$ for the thing. I called him, told him I was local, and could move it, but would not be willing to do any money due to the age, weight, etc. I planned to part it out to people interested in the thing wherever, and enough was left ebay the rest. He has a system with no media, 1 RL02 drive on top. He didn't say till I got there that he thought I was going to pay for it. I have seen older minis like this around the area for pickup, told him that before going there, and so needless to say it is still there. It does have a Fujitsu SMD drive, and maybe a SCSI backended F880. I didn't look at the F880 to be sure. The system is in two separate cabinets. I told him that real money such as he has seen on ebay means someone who is listing it, knows what they are selling and will warrant what they sell. The ones that just list $800 cpu boards stay on ebay and don't sell. Anyway hope this helps anyone inbound to see it. I'll answer any questions off list that I can answer. Again, two cabinets, condition looks like it was stored in a garage (not pristine, but not rusted either). He says "well I powered it on 10 years ago and it worked" when I explained the situation about his idea of value, and mine. Jim On 6/8/2010 4:04 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> At 11:03 PM +0200 6/8/10, St?phane Tsacas wrote: >> >>> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sys/1777867686.html PDP 11/23+ - $1 >>> (Sherman Oaks ) >>> >>> Western Digital , PDP 11/23+ , Brand New , Never Used , RLO2 , Kenedy Tape >>> Drive >>> >> It's probably just as well I'm no where near close, but I have to question >> the description. What is the odds of a 20-30 year old system being "brand >> new", and where do the Western Digital and Kennedy Tape Drive come into play >> based on the photo. I see a /23+ and two RL02's. A rather nice config. I >> have a /23 like that, though lack the rack. >> > I'll let you know... I've contacted the seller and told him that if he > didn't get any local offers, I'd be interested (I'm in San Jose). The > family would enjoy a long weekend drive to LA... :) > > Mark > > > From herby1620 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 05:27:36 2010 From: herby1620 at yahoo.com (Herbert C. Williams) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 03:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Floppy disk data separators... Message-ID: <481896.61814.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> While I do understand that an external data separator is a good thing, I was one of those who did a design using the internal data separator using the WD1771 (and later National) chip. It was on a M6800 system I did some work on, and it seemed to work OK for me. I was using (originally) 35 track Seagate drives, but later used 40 track ones. I used 256 byte sectors (10 per track). If I git an error, I just did a retry. No real problems. Just my experience. I still have a system operational (I haven't turned it on in a few years, but may soon). I also interfaced various hard disks. What fun. It was 1976 and also worked on Qume (daisywheel) printers (it only takes a single PIA to interface to them!). I'm sure that others will have different views on data separators. My experience was a bit different, I don't know what I did different (maybe it was something!). From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jun 12 07:48:26 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 08:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I suppose "good enough" accurately describes the Apple II scheme; >> "gutless wonder" would be another term that comes to mind. GCR with >> the only error conrol being a one-byte arithmetic checksum on each >> sector. Were there ever any "turbo" mods to run an Apple II at more >> than 2MHz without breaking the floppy logic? > > Weren't the Zip Chip and Rocket Chip good enough to not cause problems like > that? More accurately stated, they were _smart_ enough to not cause problems by detecting accesses to the diskette controller hardware and slowing down to the base 1Mhz. clock rate for a short period of time. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jun 12 07:55:55 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 08:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C12BDDD.6040805@gmail.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C12BDDD.6040805@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I suppose "good enough" accurately describes the Apple II scheme; >> "gutless wonder" would be another term that comes to mind. GCR with >> the only error conrol being a one-byte arithmetic checksum on each >> sector. Were there ever any "turbo" mods to run an Apple II at more >> than 2MHz without breaking the floppy logic? > > I don't know about the ][ itself, but the ZipChip accelerator for the //c > runs at 4MHz with the floppy operating correctly. As I metioned in a response to the original post, all A2 accelerators that I'm aware of slow to 1Mhz. for GCR floppy access. The only exception might be the internal logic for the original Unidisk 3.5" drive. It used an embedded 65C02 and could read entire tracks at a time. However, it relied on very conservative 4:1 physical sector skewing. For the IIGS, Apple developed a custom ASIC for diskette I/O that I believe could operate at a 2Mhz. clock. With the newer "dumb" 3.5" Apple drives, it was capable of reading track-at-a-time with 2:1 interleave. The fun started when you read such a diskette on a Unidisk 3.5 :-) It got 2x slower than usual due to an extra rotation between every sector transfer. Even on the IIGS, accelerator cards slowed to the "as designed" clock speed for diskette I/O. Steve -- From bqt at softjar.se Sat Jun 12 10:04:30 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:04:30 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C13A1FE.5020605@softjar.se> Ben wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > Why use a line editor? There are several full screen editors for OS/8. >> > Really fast and nice ones. > > Where? Like others mentioned, you have VTEDIT, which you can find at ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pdp8/os8/teco8/ for instance. I also have VISTA, which is a nice editor that can handle various different terminals. However, for some reason I can't seem to find it in our ftp archive right now. I was pretty sure I put it up there at some point. But maybe someone else knows a location where you can find it. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Sat Jun 12 10:08:23 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:08:23 -0600 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C13A2E7.6010002@softjar.se> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Ben wrote: >> > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > >>> >> Why use a line editor? There are several full screen editors for OS/8. >>> >> Really fast and nice ones. >> > >> > Where? > > I just know of one - VTEDIT.TE > > http://www.pdp8.net/os/os8/os8_cmd.shtml > > I had unhappy results with a VT220 in VT52 mode 25 years ago, but it > works great with a real VT52. I seem to remember using it just fine with a VT320 though. I think you had to make sure you set it to 7M1 or something like that, and not use 8N though, or else it wouldn't be pretty. I totally forgot that I wrote a Emacs-clone for TECO8, which is what I normally use. That one I have probably not posted anywhere anytime. But we also have VISTA, which was available from DECUS, and which I have. I think I made it available, and maybe others have too. So for people in general, you have atleast two options, and I should post my EMACS.TE sometime too... Johnny From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 12 22:49:13 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apricot in the US Message-ID: <55759.44079.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I know I've seen ads for these in the past. Can anyone inform as to those models that were available here or in the great white north (er Canada). From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 03:48:18 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:48:18 +1000 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 3:11 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > What version of RSTS/E, and does it support the RQZX1? ?I think that support > might have come with 10.1. Yes, I am using 10.1 > I'm not sure if anyone has actually attempted what you're doing, some of us > were discussing this a year or two ago, but I know I've not had time to try > it. I tried all the obvious combinations for imaging the hard disk, the final one being: SIMH using the SCSI drive as a block device (Linux: attach rq /dev/sdc) and confirming that SIMH boots the drive successfully after the install, however on re-attaching to the 11/93 it still throws the Drive not ready error when trying to boot. > Of course you may simply have some sort of hardware issue going on there as > well, I'm not familiar with the RQZX1. The drives passes the built-in RQZX1 diagnostics, which includes read/write/verify tests etc. I formatted the SCSI drive via the RQZX1 too (prior to using the drive on Linux via SIMH to install RSTS/E), just in case the format process was doing something special (although I can't imagine what since I understand MSCP masks drive specifics). A next posible step is to use this source-code for a MSCP boot so I can catch the initial boot load and see what is in the first disk block (containing the next level bootstrap): http://www.slowdeath.com/AK6DN/PDP-11/M9312/23-767A9/23-767A9.lst I will also try a different model of SCSI drive too - perhaps the Quantum Fireball is too much of a good thing (4200RPM 2.1GB); I have an old clunker of a Quantum ProDrive 80S (3600 RPM 80MB!) Does anyone know how SCSI ID's are mapped to MSCP LUNs? so far the RQZX1 appears to map the first SCSI ID (in my case #4) to LUN 0 (which is what I want) - I am assuming it just does them in sequence. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jun 13 04:03:30 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 10:03:30 +0100 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C1432A3.10108@verizon.net> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net> <4C12B3E6.7070305@philpem.me.uk> <4C1432A3.10108@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C149EE2.6000304@philpem.me.uk> On 13/06/10 02:21, Keith wrote: >> You're using fixed-position analysis? That is, "if the pulse was >> between X and Y us after the last pulse, it was a 01" and so on? > > I don't know what's it's technically called, but yes. OK, same as my "proof of concept" analyser then. What I'm doing is a histogram analysis, followed by a peak-detect, and then picking the centre points between the peaks as the thresholds. Problem is, this only corrects for MSV. On a disc which has been written with pre-compensation, this is (usually) fine. Without precomp, or on an old disc which is suffering from bit-shift, it's a whole different ball game. > I've read about these before. When you say the drive motor doesn't > rotate at a constant speed, you mean that despite it having an average > of 300 rpm, that there is some speed up and slow down throughout a > single revolution? That's ISV (Instantaneous Speed Variation). MSV and ISV are two different things. ISV is usually caused by variations in friction in the disc mechanism. MSV is a bit different -- that's a difference in the average speed and varies on a per-drive basis. A lot of older drives (Amstrad 3" drives in particular) used motors which had a small speed-adjust screw. A single drive could be adjusted by a few percent relative to another. On modern drives, the speed is locked against a quartz crystal or a ceramic resonator, and is typically much more accurate. There's still a several-digit-PPM variation between drives though. > I've measured time between index pulses, and so far > they appear to be 200.x ms. 200.0 is your target but some variation is normal. Hook up a frequency counter with a serial or HPIB output and plot the time for each rotation on a graph. It won't be a straight line... > Do you have your code up someplace? Verilog or VHDL? I can't release the software source as yet, because it's part of my final-year university project. The Verilog code is open, though, but I haven't set the version control repository as public yet. > Thanks for all the links, they should be valuable. I'm still working on > the basic concepts of a PLL. Once I get a better handle, I think writing > the code for a basic one should be within my reach. Also look up Roman Black's Bresenham Timer algorithm -- http://romanblack.com/one_sec.htm I've been thinking about how this looks like it could be used as a PLL (you'd probably need two phase-accumulators, one driven by the incoming data), but haven't really spent much time on implementation... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 13 05:58:13 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 06:58:13 -0400 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C14B9C5.5000108@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > What I have done was take an image created on either SIMH or E11 (I'm > pretty sure I was using SIMH), put RT-11 on it, written that out to a > CD-R, and booted and installed from that. I've done the same with > RSX-11M+. IIRC, I was unable to successfully boot the RSTS/E CD. I'm > using a Viking QDT SCSI controller. I use both SIMH and E11 when I run RT-11 on my PC. So I am familiar with some of the problems. If it will help in the testing, would a CD-R with RT-11 be acceptable? There is a dual file structure CD which can be used as a data CD as a regular CD and also boot RT-11 on real DEC hardware using a SCSI CD drive which supports 512 byte blocks. For the one example that I produced, classiccmp has it available at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ and the compressed file with the CD image is RT11DV10.ISO.zip If I am not mistaken, I think that Zane has a copy of this CD image and actually booted RT-11 on his DEC PDP-11 at some point in the distant past. The is also a companion CD produced at the same time with all the additional RT-11 binary distributions which were released after V05.03 of RT-11. This image was actually produced first as RT11DV50.ISO and then altered to produce RT11DV10.ISO by using RT-11 to change to contents of the README.1ST file and zeroing out the contents of the RT-11 distributions released after V05.03 of RT-11. All of this changing of the contents was done by using RT-11. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 13 06:24:23 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 07:24:23 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: <4C142D4B.1020304@jwsss.com> References: <4C142D4B.1020304@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C14BFE7.80201@compsys.to> >jim s wrote: > I went and looked at this today. The guy thinks someone is coming > from "up north" to pay $$ for the thing. I called him, told him I was > local, and could move it, but would not be willing to do any money due > to the age, weight, etc. I planned to part it out to people > interested in the thing wherever, and enough was left ebay the rest. > > He has a system with no media, 1 RL02 drive on top. He didn't say > till I got there that he thought I was going to pay for it. I have > seen older minis like this around the area for pickup, told him that > before going there, and so needless to say it is still there. I have enough PDP-11/73 hardware to put together at least 3 systems based on a BA23 box with at least 2 MB of memory and a 600 MB Hitachi ESDI hard disk drive. I can also add an RQDX3 and RX50 floppy drive. I also have both TK50 and TK70 tape drives which might be even more useful. And I probably have an ethernet controller around as well, but could not test that aspect without any software. While I have only RT-11 that could be run and tested on these systems, obviously they could be used for RSTS/E and RSX-11. I used to have a number of RL02 drives and packs, but most of the RL02 drives are gone. The racks are still left however. There are also some 9 track tape drives in unknown condition, although one worked the last time I powered it up about ten years ago. Is there any interest in such a system? I was thinking of travelling from Toronto to Ohio some time in the next couple of years to the annual meeting. Is it possibly at Daton? Otherwise, local pickup would be necessary since a fully loaded BA23 box is just too heavy to ship, let alone pack successfully. There may also be a BA123 box available, but that would be last on the list as I would likely want to keep it for my own use. However, in a few decades, someone is going to have to relieve my wife of all of the PDP-11 manuals and hardware since I am 71 years old right now and need an alternative to the dumptser. Jerome Fine From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 08:46:23 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 23:46:23 +1000 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > I will also try a different model of SCSI drive too - perhaps the > Quantum Fireball is too much of a good thing (4200RPM 2.1GB); I have > an old clunker of a Quantum ProDrive 80S (3600 RPM 80MB!) Well the ProDrive was too small (although pleasingly quiet) RSTS/E failed with an out of space error during install - I suspect I need to modify the install defaults to move things around to fit such a "small" drive. I switched to a Seagate 1.2GB, used SIMH to build another RSTS/E system, re-attached to the 11/93 and it now "almost" booted, which is progress at last. Some strange characters appeared during the second-stage boot and then the "Pack cluster size" error appeared and it looped at this point. So I appear to be encountering some sort of disk layout/sizing problem. I used the default cluster size of 8 and 64 with the same results. Memory 2048 KW EEprom 4 KW Time 09:56:20 22-Apr-06 Sat Nr Device Unit Address 1 DU ROM 0 Default Starting System ? ? Pack cluster size is not 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 or 64. PC=120324 PS=034344 OV=000006 M5=004000 M6=004200 SP=041240 R0=000026 R1=002020 R2=002020 R3=000000 R4=000000 R5=041350 SP-> 021364 000026 000000 102674 000000 075072 Fatal RSTS/E system initialization error! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 13 09:43:56 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 07:43:56 -0700 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I will also try a different model of SCSI drive too - perhaps the >Quantum Fireball is too much of a good thing (4200RPM 2.1GB); I have >an old clunker of a Quantum ProDrive 80S (3600 RPM 80MB!) Do you happen to have any DEC RZ2x HD's? I'd recommend giving those a try. While RSTS/E 10.1 doesn't require these, it is possible that the RQZX1 does, or the combination of the board and RSTS/E does. RSTS/E can be touchy. I was totally unable to install DECnet/E from 4mm DAT using a TLZ06, even though I installed RSTS/E 10.1 that way. On the other hand the install worked just fine using a TK50 and TKZ30 drive. Personally I'm using a PDP-11/73, Viking QDT, a 50-pin 2GB Seagate Barracuda SCSI HD, and a Plextor 8x Caddy CD-ROM drive to run 10.1. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 13 10:14:36 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:14:36 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: <4C142D4B.1020304@jwsss.com> References: <4C142D4B.1020304@jwsss.com> Message-ID: At 5:58 PM -0700 6/12/10, jim s wrote: >off list that I can answer. Again, two cabinets, condition looks >like it was stored in a garage (not pristine, but not rusted >either). He says "well I powered it on 10 years ago and it worked" >when I explained the situation about his idea of value, and mine. Somehow this seems to sum up most stuff posted on Craigslist. I've been following camera's on there for the last couple years. In that time I've purchased one 4x5 View Camera, it was a fair deal, and I wanted the lens (really glad I got it as I love the camera as well). I've not gotten any 35mm or Medium Format gear though. With most of the stuff I see that I might be interested in, the sellers seem to have a very inflated sense of value. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 13 10:39:15 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:39:15 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C12AAF8.21167.2C788A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, , <4C111364.18879.1B75711@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4C126E8B.3060601@verizon.net>, <4C12AAF8.21167.2C788A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > Here's another paper that concerns itself with the design of a > digital data separator: > > http://hungngo-asic-design.tripod.com/Chip_Tech_HDD_paper.pdf > > --Chuck Hi This paper got me thinking a little. With digitized data, it should be possible to not only correct for bit shift in mild cases but also detect when it is so sever that there is an error. My understanding is that bit shift is a phase error that looks like the response is too slow. In other words two pulse getting too close tend to spread apart. It seems one can create a number of FIR filters to analyze the data. Some with corrections for to much precompensation and others with correction for too little. You then just feed them all in parallel and pick the one for that tracks with the least timing error, for that particular track. This is something that can not be done inthe analog world because analog tends to be IIR and not FIR. In the article you've posted, they've oversampled by 32 ( 5 bits ). It is a bit high for most but I suspect a sampling system of maybe 8 is more practical for our use. This way, one could tune for the bit shift seem on each track, which should be similar. Also, one could keep track of errors, such as knowing when a pulse was missed and use that to correct if and error was detected. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Jun 13 12:12:20 2010 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:12:20 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:00:07 -0500, you wrote: >>off list that I can answer. Again, two cabinets, condition looks >>like it was stored in a garage (not pristine, but not rusted >>either). He says "well I powered it on 10 years ago and it worked" >>when I explained the situation about his idea of value, and mine. > > With most of the stuff I see that I might be interested in, the sellers seem to >have a very inflated sense of value. It seems that the value fluctuates over a wide range depending on where it's located, among other things. I also have a perfectly good working 11/23+ that I have no need for (RT-11, 4 MB RAM, two RL02's, corporate cabinet) but I'm not inclined to just give it away free either... so I guess it can just sit there until it IS worth a few bucks! From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 12:31:44 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 10:31:44 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/23+ on Craigslist (LA) In-Reply-To: <4C142D4B.1020304@jwsss.com> References: <4C142D4B.1020304@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I'm probably the guy from "up north" he's referring to, but I made no mention of paying a bunch of money for the machine. I simply told him that if he had no one local that was interested then I would definitely consider driving down and rescuing it... after all, listing something for $1 implies (to me) that he's willing to entertain reasonable offers. I certainly am not going to make him rich. :) He told me he was out of town and would send me pictures of the real box when he got home... I haven't heard anything since. Mark On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 5:58 PM, jim s wrote: > I went and looked at this today. ?The guy thinks someone is coming from "up > north" to pay $$ for the thing. ?I called him, told him I was local, and > could move it, but would not be willing to do any money due to the age, > weight, etc. ?I planned to part it out to people interested in the thing > wherever, and enough was left ebay the rest. > > He has a system with no media, 1 RL02 drive on top. ?He didn't say till I > got there that he thought I was going to pay for it. ?I have seen older > minis like this around the area for pickup, told him that before going > there, and so needless to say it is still there. > > It does have a Fujitsu SMD drive, and maybe a SCSI backended F880. ?I didn't > look at the F880 to be sure. > > The system is in two separate cabinets. > > I told him that real money such as he has seen on ebay means someone who is > listing it, knows what they are selling and will warrant what they sell. > ?The ones that just list $800 cpu boards stay on ebay and don't sell. > > Anyway hope this helps anyone inbound to see it. ?I'll answer any questions > off list that I can answer. ?Again, two cabinets, condition looks like it > was stored in a garage (not pristine, but not rusted either). ?He says "well > I powered it on 10 years ago and it worked" when I explained the situation > about his idea of value, and mine. > > Jim > > On 6/8/2010 4:04 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Zane H. Healy ?wrote: >> >>> >>> At 11:03 PM +0200 6/8/10, St?phane Tsacas wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/sys/1777867686.html PDP 11/23+ - $1 >>>> (Sherman Oaks ) >>>> >>>> Western Digital , PDP 11/23+ , Brand New , Never Used , RLO2 , Kenedy >>>> Tape >>>> Drive >>>> >>> >>> It's probably just as well I'm no where near close, but I have to >>> question >>> the description. What is the odds of a 20-30 year old system being "brand >>> new", and where do the Western Digital and Kennedy Tape Drive come into >>> play >>> based on the photo. ?I see a /23+ and two RL02's. ?A rather nice config. >>> ?I >>> have a /23 like that, though lack the rack. >>> >> >> I'll let you know... I've contacted the seller and told him that if he >> didn't get any local offers, I'd be interested (I'm in San Jose). ?The >> family would enjoy a long weekend drive to LA... :) >> >> Mark >> >> >> > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 13 12:32:17 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 10:32:17 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C121538.11854.7E917D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C128A7E.70302@brouhaha.com> <4C124433.17414.13617AA@cclist.sydex.com> <4C12BDDD.6040805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C151621.30001@brouhaha.com> On 06/12/2010 05:55 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > For the IIGS, Apple developed a custom ASIC for diskette I/O that I > believe could operate at a 2Mhz. clock. Same "IWM" ASIC they used in the Apple IIc, Lisa 2, Mac, etc. It can operate at 2 MHz, but not when running the same old RWTS code (or the ProDOS or GS/OS equivalents). The IIgs slows to 1 MHz for 5.25-inch disk access, same as the other models. Not sure about 3.5-inch disk access. IIRC, the higher-speed choice on the IIgs is 2.8 MHz, but it is forced to slow down to 1 MHz for bus access, including most of the internal peripherals such as the IWM. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 13 13:18:44 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 11:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100613105126.B78215@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > The other trick, if you can do it is to fit the lens back-to-front. Most > camera lenses are designed to work with a larger object than image > distance. Byu turning it round you reverse this, which is a help for the > short object distances in close-ups. I NEVER reverse the lens when photographing anything unless I am going for a magnification (image larger than object). When the object is larger than the image, you are in the realm of "normal" lens design. Enlarger lenses, in particular, are designed for ~1" (25.4mm :-) "film", with ~10" "object" (print paper). Direction of photon flow is irrelevant - most enlarger lenses are designed for about the magnification level that you would want for photographing a sircuit board, or a sheet of paper. Also, enlarger lenses are generally designed for FLAT FIELD, which can be a major plus. When photographing the innards of a chip, an individual cold solder joint, postage stamps, coins, or the like, THEN lens reversal becomes worth considering. > The problem is that you genrally loose all automatic coupling to the > lens, which means it's not a lot of use with modern > electronically-controlled cmaeras. The Praktica PLC/VLC series had a > special pair of afapater rings to maintain full aperture metering even > when the lens was fitted backwards, but I've not seen this for anything > remotely modern. My micro-four-thirds is the first camera that I have ever seriously owned where the camera attempted to communicate anything to the lens, (I haven't unwrapped the Exakta that I was given months ago, andI haven't used the other SLRs in ~40 years), and shooting in "no lens" mode lets me use my lenses (manual focus, manual aperture). If the only prioblem is an "auto" aperture, there are a few adapters available that let you connect a dual cable release (similar to that supplied with Visoflex) in order to "simultaneously" stop down the lens and trigger the camera, or just duct-tape the stop-down linkage and do it manually. The lenses for the 4x5 and 8x10 cameras are all manual. But, I may soon try to disassemble the camera firmware. I am not sure whether Panasonic's code to refuse to operate with generic batteries! is really a "safety issue" as they claim, or just greed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun Jun 13 13:25:14 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 11:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making Amiga Disks... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I recently picked up an Amiga 500 on eBay. I may have some Workbench disks that will work with it. In case I don't. Does anyone have advice on how I can get disk images and make floppies from them readable by the A500? I have PC's and Macs with floppy drives available to make the disks. Thanks! Al From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 13 13:28:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 11:28:16 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C1482DB.6030802@brouhaha.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C141680.2114.325B53B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C1482DB.6030802@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C14C0D0.14233.81AC69@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2010 at 0:03, Eric Smith wrote: > It's not a PLL since it doesn't even try to adjust the frequency to > maintain phase lock. It only changes the instantaneous phase. > There's no "Loop" in it, nor "Lock". I'll agree that it takes a mental stretch, but there is a "lock". and a "loop" is easy enough to incorporate. Play along with me on this one. I'll use a Catweasel for my model, since it's most familiar to people. Suppose there is a Catweasel reading a disk at 50t (the reference frequency), where t is the assumed "short" inerval of an MFM stream. That means that the center points of the sampling windows are 50t, 75t and 100t. Let's also assume some finite sample window size that allows for capture of a sample on either side of the window center, plus or minus a fixed number of counts. Note that there is a 1-count "jitter" in the Catweasel hardware, where a pulse arriving at 50t can be reported as 49t, as well as 50t; let's assume that the windows are wide enough to accomodate that. What's lacking is "loop" or feedback term to adjust window centers to track variations in speed. Without it, this is no better than the average UART receiver. However, there is also an error quantity. Just as one can take the error signal from a traditional PLL and estimate the spindle speed of the drive, so can one sum the intervals reported by the Catweasel and compare it with an ideal and obtain the spindle speed of the drive. On a per-sample basis, one can compare the value of the sample with its corresponding window center to obtain an error value. Thus, one can take this error value and adjust the sampling window centers appropriately, giving a "loop" and a "lock" to the incoming data stream. Thus, one has a reference, a lock, and a loop based on an error value. Maybe not a PLL in the strict sense, but something that shares the characteristics of one. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 13 12:17:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:17:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Floppy disk data separators... In-Reply-To: <481896.61814.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Herbert C. Williams" at Jun 12, 10 03:27:36 am Message-ID: > > While I do understand that an external data separator is a good thing, > I was one of those who did a design using the internal data separator > using the WD1771 (and later National) chip. It was on a M6800 system I > did some work on, and it seemed to work OK for me. I was using > (originally) 35 track Seagate drives, but later used 40 track ones. I've heard many complaints about the TRS-80 model 1 disk controller which used a 1771 with the intenral data separator. But I ran a model 1 for quite a few yesrs with a 'stock' expanison interface (no doubler, no date separator mod) and never had a disk error. Yes, I kept the heads clean. Yes, I checked the drive speed from time to time (but never had to adjust it). I had many, many, more problems with an Apple ][ I was using... [...] > > Just my experience. I still have a system operational (I haven't > turned it on in a few years, but may soon). I also interfaced various > hard disks. What fun. It was 1976 and also worked on Qume > (daisywheel) printers (it only takes a single PIA to in terface to them!). I remember the Qume printers with the 50 pin card edge for the interface connector. IIRC, you specified the print wheel position, how far to move the carriage, etc on seperate sets of data lines. But it's been a long time... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 13 12:24:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:24:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for a working 11/05 (KD11-B) board setu In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Jun 12, 10 06:21:25 pm Message-ID: > > Tony has a good point here: it's usually the support stuff (power supplies,= > connectors) that bugger up a machine of this simplicity. -- Ian=20 Even if it isnt, I fail to see what good a spare CPU board set will do. I know I am in aminority here, but I truely believe the only way to put something right is to find the fault, and then to correct that fualt. Not to randomly swap parts until the machine _appears_ to work again. In any case, I don't know anyone who would be prepared to risk any PCB in a machine where the health of the PSU isn't known. The first thing to do is to discover just what it is and isn't doing. If it were my machine I would start by checking the PSU with a meter and 'scope. PSU problems can make you think there's something wrong with just about any part of the machine. Then I would try reading and writing memory. If that fails. I'd stick in a DL11 or something and try reading and writing that (if that works, it's _likely_ there's a problem in the memroy section). And look at the Unibus lines when doing meoroy accesses from the panel -- do they look right? If not, there probably is a problem in the CPU -- then it's time to see which signal(s) are wrong, what drives them, could there be a common cause, check 'earlier' signals in the CPU logic, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 13 12:51:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:51:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any HP80-seires experts around? Message-ID: Are there any HP80 seires experts here? I've got a curious quesiton. I am looking at the HP82909 128K RAM module (for the HP86/87 series). There are several places on the PCB that are not used -- from memory, thre are 4 locations for 14 pin ICs. More curiously, there's a place for a rssistor and transsitor to drive the ROMDIS/ line on the computer connector. I am pretty sure the 'missing' chips are simple logic functions. One is very probably a '74. Another may well be a '30. But I haven't worked out the details yet. My guess is that some HP product actually used this extra logic. So my 'curious quesiton' is : What product was it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 13 13:43:58 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 19:43:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Cameras, cameras, cameras.. (was Re: Lightbulb police? ...) In-Reply-To: <20100613105126.B78215@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 13, 10 11:18:44 am Message-ID: > > The problem is that you genrally loose all automatic coupling to the > > lens, which means it's not a lot of use with modern > > electronically-controlled cmaeras. The Praktica PLC/VLC series had a > > special pair of afapater rings to maintain full aperture metering even > > when the lens was fitted backwards, but I've not seen this for anything > > remotely modern. > > My micro-four-thirds is the first camera that I have ever seriously owned > where the camera attempted to communicate anything to the lens, (I haven't Very few of my cameras do either. I think all of them can be used with no lens communication, you may loose full-aperture metering, but that's the only problem > unwrapped the Exakta that I was given months ago, andI haven't used the I don't know which model of Exakta you've obtained, but most of them have no internal lens couplings at all. Even the auto stop-down is done by a button on the lens that first closes the diaphragm and then hits the shutter release. If you use that sort of lens on extension tubes, bellows, or back-to-front, you just use a double cable release. > other SLRs in ~40 years), and shooting in "no lens" mode lets me use my > lenses (manual focus, manual aperture). If the only prioblem is an "auto" > aperture, there are a few adapters available that let you connect a dual Indeed... > cable release (similar to that supplied with Visoflex) in order to > "simultaneously" stop down the lens and trigger the camera, or just > duct-tape the stop-down linkage and do it manually. The lenses for the > 4x5 and 8x10 cameras are all manual. Large format cameras (at least the older ones I can afford) tend to be very 'manual' They do take a lony time to set up correctly to get the result I want, and the extra time in having to stop the lens down by hand is hardly an issue. And rembering to do that is no harder than rememberign to close the shutter before pulling the dark slide. > > > But, I may soon try to disassemble the camera firmware. > I am not sure whether Panasonic's code to refuse to operate with generic > batteries! is really a "safety issue" as they claim, or just greed. My guess is msotly the latter :-). I suppose there may be a safety issue if you tried to cheage them in the camera (if it has a built-in charger), but I can't think of any issue in discharging them. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 13 14:11:55 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:11:55 -0700 Subject: Making Amiga Disks... In-Reply-To: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 11:25 AM -0700 6/13/10, Al Hartman wrote: >I recently picked up an Amiga 500 on eBay. I may have some Workbench >disks that will work with it. > >In case I don't. Does anyone have advice on how I can get disk >images and make floppies from them readable by the A500? > >I have PC's and Macs with floppy drives available to make the disks. Off the top of my head, I think you'll need a Catweasel board to put in a PC. Having just an A500 makes it more than a little difficult. I'm still trying to find my A500, so I can see if I can get it working again. I've found the A3000, but not its keyboard. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 10:01:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:01:39 -0300 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? References: <3ECED60E74A942EF9D676F4C64841E9E@xp1800> Message-ID: <091501cb0b36$ba283d90$1831fea9@Alexandre> > I use rubber precision pipes (a special kind of rubberhose). > Diameters for the 9144 are inside 6/16 outside 7/16 inch. > I glue the with polypurethane glue and grind to the right size using > sandpaper 150 (3M wet or dry) > I finish the capstands with a sandpaper 400 so the surface is smooth. > For the HP85 / 9825 /9835 tapedrives I use a 6.5mm citroen hydraulic > rubber. Someone should concatenate these tips on a web page :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 10:34:48 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:34:48 -0300 Subject: pdp8/a rebuild References: <2C.1A.28437.5321CFB4@cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <091601cb0b36$bbed1f10$1831fea9@Alexandre> > Does anyone know a reason why I can't remove the G8018's and G8019 and > replace them with newer OEM power supplies? I know that one G8018 > supplies > 5V @ 25a, +15V @ 2a, -15V @ 2a and +20V @ 4a. I believe the 20V is only > used > for core memory. So.a 5v supply @ 50a should be sufficient, and a 2 dual > output +/- 15v supply @ 2@ each should be a reasonable substitute. I am > aware of the functions of the G8019 and that I would be defeating the > "dead > fan shutdown" and battery backup feature. I think a GOOD (seventeam or thermaltake, e.g.) PC power supply can do wonders here: - 5V you can use straight - +15V you can mod the power supply to have it - -15 you just change the 7912 inside the psu for a 7915 - +20V would be easier to get thru an external notebook power supply Of course, you can always use a +5 power supply along with a +/-15V power supply and a 19.5 power supply :) Good luck! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 10:44:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:44:39 -0300 Subject: asteroids board References: <4BFE0DE6.7050801@comcast.net> Message-ID: <091701cb0b36$bdbbc490$1831fea9@Alexandre> > Then there's this one that went offline that I was hoping that somebody > has it mirrored. Something I always do is to mirror a site (and make it avaiable, if possible, on the web) if the content is interesting enough and I suspect it can ever come offline. Some things are too valuable to be missed. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 11:00:59 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 13:00:59 -0300 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: , <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> <4C07E149.30743.217D8A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <091a01cb0b36$c295d550$1831fea9@Alexandre> > Dunno, but I like to salvage the electronics out of the bases. Some > diodes, transistors, capacitors and inductors that just *might* be > useful for something else--someday. So I've got a pile of the > innards. The inductors are very useful for amateur radio use :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 10:57:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:57:39 -0300 Subject: Portable PDF viewers (was: Re: Semi-OT: Apple iPad) References: <1275416512.586004promail.ptd.net> <4C075A92.6020302@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <091801cb0b36$bf1efe10$1831fea9@Alexandre> >I suppose this may be considered passe in this modern world of iPads and >eBook readers (here on cctalk, of all places!), but I use an old Tablet PC >(an Acer Travelmate C110 - cost me all of $200 on eBay a couple of years >back) for PDF viewing away from my desktop (i.e. on the workbench). It's >nowhere near as light as a Nook, but it's considerably more functional -- I >use it as a dumb terminal, do some light coding, and can annotate PDFs with >the stylus if need be. It's still pretty small - it has a 10.4" 1024x768 >screen, weighs somewhere around 3lbs, and is convertible between a "tablet" >form factor and a normal "laptop" with keyboard. I did the same with my new notebook, a P4 gateway convertible, bought new about 4 or 5 years ago. The former owner said it gives around 14 (!!!) hours with the battery being new, I can only get 3 hours from it (it is still the original battery). I like it, it is a dream for reading PDFs and drawing. But it is TOO chubby. Weights a lot. I'd love to have something lighter... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 11:03:23 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 13:03:23 -0300 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: , <20100603162913.G89502@shell.lmi.net>, <4C085647.5040803@philpem.me.uk> <4C07F844.16978.2719DA7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <091b01cb0b36$c3e14110$1831fea9@Alexandre> >> > Ever ask a Fry's employee for a serial printer cable? > The sad thing is that, at one time, if you asked a Fry's employee for > a parallel printer cable, he might have asked "Centronics or > Dataproducts?". That was at a time where, if you said "Fry's", > everyone thought you meant the place where you brought groceries. > When it first opened, Fry's was a wonderful place where you could > find all sorts of things, such as VME bus cards. That aspect didn't > last too long, however. Unfortunately, we must remember that if something doesn't give enough return, it must be scrapped off. That is the way stores works. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 10:59:26 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:59:26 -0300 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C0839FA.1020906@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <091901cb0b36$c0b1d310$1831fea9@Alexandre> >> Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh >> electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the fluorescent >> tube when it fails? > Profit. Maybe I'm wrong, but don't you have PL lamps? These are common in Brazil...An adapter you screw on the base, and a replaceable lamp. Anyway, common fluorescent "economic" lightbulbs are way cheaper. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 11:31:17 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 13:31:17 -0300 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <4C09E009.4070505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <091c01cb0b36$c51c0b00$1831fea9@Alexandre> > A project I worked on in those days had four RAM boards each > containing 576 51C256 chips. I remember thinking for a split second > "Hmm, how could I get one of those boards out of here?" ;) I got **very** curious of what it could be :D 576 ram chips are a lot of chips for one board :D Pictures? :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 11:39:03 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 13:39:03 -0300 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C091D8B.7020307@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Jun 4, 1010:36:43 am", <201006041537.o54FbZq3003998@floodgap.com> <009f01cb0422$92a99ea0$b2fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4C0A5059.6050507@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <091d01cb0b36$c6591ee0$1831fea9@Alexandre> > We reuse those plastic supermarket bags. They're exactly the right size > for small trash cans, and because they're small, they're just the right This is a **very** common thing in Brazil. Grocery/supermarket bags are used everywhere, from trash can bags to storing things. And some bags are made from recycled material. You can see it is a lower grade and very different type of plastic. Also, there is a program in Brazil which turn these bags (and bottles) in garden seats and structural components for housing. Very interesting. > I think the key isn't to ban the bags, rather, it's to make bags that > decompose after several months, or when exposed to sunlight or air for a > certain amount of time (more than a month or so.) Nice! > they're packaged that way, and also the reason why they're so difficult > to open, once at home, is to make it harder to shopfilt the items. It I still cannot understand why someone can't use a pair of scissors to open the darn package :oO > cardboard is fully recyclable, though I recycle those plastic boxes too. Ice cream boxes are nice to store parts :) > In our are we recycle carboard, newspapers/magazines (not that I > subscribe to many anyway - I can find almost everything I want to read > on the web in the first place), glass, and plastic. I miss when I bought magazines :) Now I have a **good** notebook with Wi-Fi and 3G internet, I see no why to buy magazines. I can read then on my'book. > What this has to do with old computers, I'll never know. :) Possibly, > because we rescue machines instead of letting them go to a landfill, > we're keeping them from becoming junk? Which is a nice thing :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 11:39:47 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 13:39:47 -0300 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C094807.4080805@gmail.com><4C0949EF.4080500@neurotica.com> <4C0A54CB.3090409@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <091e01cb0b36$c79aedb0$1831fea9@Alexandre> > The weirdest Rat Shack experience I've had was when I bought a can of > contact cleaner from them, not in pen form, but in spray form. The > clerk wanted to see ID for it. > I think he was confused, it wasn't spray paint after all. :) It gives you a nice "high" :) > Oh well, At least they stopped hassling me about wanting to buy a cell > phone, I mean, duh, there's one on my belt, what would I need another for? For them to fill they daily sales quota :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 11:49:35 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 13:49:35 -0300 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <4C0A7141.8070009@verizon.net> Message-ID: <091f01cb0b36$c8cc1ab0$1831fea9@Alexandre> > For what it's worth, I'm still looking for the (16) 1Mx4-bit DRAMs to take > it from 2mb to 8mb. I have some SMT ram that will work, but have to > create a carrier for them, and then have tons of soldering to do, which I > haven't really been looking forward to. Keith, if you are looking to create a carrier for them, why not use a pair of 30 pin SIMMs? It is just a matter of connecting the right pins...I can help you if you're looking for that route. From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 16:08:47 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:08:47 -0500 Subject: Making Amiga Disks... In-Reply-To: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Al Hartman wrote: > I recently picked up an Amiga 500 on eBay. I may have some Workbench disks that will work with it. > > In case I don't. Does anyone have advice on how I can get disk images and make floppies from them readable by the A500? > > I have PC's and Macs with floppy drives available to make the disks. It's a classic chicken or egg problem. I had the same problem with an Apple 2e. There's a lot of good software out there for the amiga that transfers files over either the serial or parallel port. If you have a null modem serial cable handy, you can use regular old terminal software to transfer disk images. Once those are over, you can write the images to a blank floppy using the amiga floppy drive. There's also software that allows you to create a tcp/ip connection to another computer over the parallel port. As for getting things into the machine to begin with, the amiga floppy drive is capable of reading 720k formatted PC floppy disks. That would be useful for transfering individual lha or zoo files over to the amiga. There are high density drives available for the amiga, but they're rare and expensive. Figure $100 or so. If you're good with hardware, there's also a way to hack PC floppy drives to work in the amiga. I'm not sure if they would act like double density or high density drives though. Having said that, the catweasel really is the easiest way. But it's not cheap. You download whatever disk images you want and simply write them to a floppy using a garden variety 1.44mb floppy drive. You'd be able to write a lot of other disks as well including atari and c64 (but not apple 2e. :-/ ) Of all the amiga machines, the 500 and 1000 are the hardest to upgrade. IDE and SCSI interfaces are expensive and rare. The 1200 for example has an ide interface right on the motherboard. All you need is a cheap IDE to CF converter. Then you can put the CF card in a PC and use WinUAE to mount the CF card as a hard drive and install the OS and whatever you want, then put the CF card the 1200 and boot. This technique would work for the 500 as well, but you need an IDE controller. AmigaKit also sells a PCMCIA solution for transferring files from a PC, but again, this is 600/1200 only. If you had a 2000, things are much easier. SCSI boards for the 2000 are a dime a dozen, and they'd likely come with a hard drive that has everything you need already on it. You could use the IDE to CF route with that as well if you get a SCSI to IDE converter. Sounds like a hack, but it works. In this case, you could attach the amiga scsi drive to a scsi controller in a PC, then mount the drive in WinUAE and copy whatever you want. With a 2000, you could also get a buddha board and use the IDE to CF adapter. That works great. This also works on the 500 if you can find a slingshot board. Again, these are rare, but from a technical standpoint, they're ridiculously easy to implement. You might want to see if you can talk someone like jim brain into making a batch of these. They'd be inexpensive and sell like hotcakes. I'd take one as well. :-) I seem to remember there also being someone from india or turkey or something who sells a doodad on ebay that allows the PC to pretend it's an amiga floppy drive. In that scenario, you'd run some software on the PC to mount an ADF image and just copy the files over to the floppy in the amiga. I haven't tried this. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 16:14:04 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:14:04 -0500 Subject: Making Amiga Disks... In-Reply-To: References: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Al Hartman wrote: >> I recently picked up an Amiga 500 on eBay. I may have some Workbench disks that will work with it. >> >> In case I don't. Does anyone have advice on how I can get disk images and make floppies from them readable by the A500? >> >> I have PC's and Macs with floppy drives available to make the disks. There's also this: http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html#projetssimilaires Not sure what they cost or if they're even available. brian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 13 16:17:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 14:17:27 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk data separators... In-Reply-To: References: <481896.61814.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Herbert C. Williams" at Jun 12, 10 03:27:36 am, Message-ID: <4C14E877.18441.11C9238@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2010 at 18:17, Tony Duell wrote: > I've heard many complaints about the TRS-80 model 1 disk controller > which used a 1771 with the intenral data separator. But I ran a model > 1 for quite a few yesrs with a 'stock' expanison interface (no > doubler, no date separator mod) and never had a disk error. Yes, I > kept the heads clean. Yes, I checked the drive speed from time to time > (but never had to adjust it). Didn't at least one of the "disk doublers" for the Model 1 use a one- shot data separator, complete with 10-turn pots for adjustment? I suppose that the internal data separator on a standard 8" line- powered drive wasn't too bad, as those tended to have heavy spindle flywheel/pulleys. As reliable as AC line frequency--until the belt started to slip... Early 5.25" drives (Micropolis, Shugart...) had much less robust DC motor/tach setups. Did any consumer-level operating system ever check spindle speed as part of its normal operation? It would seem to be an easy check to do while waiting for a drive to come ready. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 16:18:17 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:18:17 -0500 Subject: Making Amiga Disks... In-Reply-To: References: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:25 PM, Al Hartman wrote: >>> I recently picked up an Amiga 500 on eBay. I may have some Workbench disks that will work with it. >>> >>> In case I don't. Does anyone have advice on how I can get disk images and make floppies from them readable by the A500? >>> >>> I have PC's and Macs with floppy drives available to make the disks. > > There's also this: > > http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html#projetssimilaires > > Not sure what they cost or if they're even available. Looks like they are. :-) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180516490246 brian From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 13 16:26:55 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 15:26:55 -0600 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:49:13 -0700. <55759.44079.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <55759.44079.qm at web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > I know I've seen ads for these in the past. Can anyone inform as > to those mo dels that were available here or in the great white north > (er Canada). I worked at a small retailer that (unfortunately) chose the Apricot line as their primary line. We had the smaller F1s and the larger Xis. Nice ideas on the keyboard, unfortunately they were not BIOS compatible and that killed them as most applications at that time went straight to the BIOS and not through the MS-DOS layer. They were MS-DOS compatible but not BIOS compatible. I have an F1, but haven't managed to obtain an Xi at a reasonable price. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 13 16:33:05 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 22:33:05 +0100 Subject: Floppy disk data separators... In-Reply-To: <4C14E877.18441.11C9238@cclist.sydex.com> References: <481896.61814.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Herbert C. Williams" at Jun 12, 10 03:27:36 am, <4C14E877.18441.11C9238@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C154E91.5020508@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 13 Jun 2010 at 18:17, Tony Duell wrote: > Did any consumer-level operating system ever check spindle speed as > part of its normal operation? It would seem to be an easy check to > do while waiting for a drive to come ready. Wouldn't that have been handled within the disk controler chip WD177x, WD[1,2]79x or whatever, could be determined by counting the index pulses and the time delay between them. I guess the reason that the data seperator moved inside the disk controler was the old chestnut of parts count, generally less parts means lower cost. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 13 16:40:27 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 14:40:27 -0700 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4C14EDDB.7799.131A099@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2010 at 15:26, Richard wrote: > I worked at a small retailer that (unfortunately) chose the Apricot > line as their primary line. We had the smaller F1s and the larger > Xis. Nice ideas on the keyboard, unfortunately they were not BIOS > compatible and that killed them as most applications at that time went > straight to the BIOS and not through the MS-DOS layer. They were > MS-DOS compatible but not BIOS compatible. At least one "PC incompatible" provided a terminate-and-stay-resident DOS program that translated PC BIOS calls to the native system's BIOS. I'm not sure that it did much better as regards compatibility-- there were a lot of programs that did direct-memory-and-port-access video and a fair number of games that resorted to twiddling the floppy controller to implement their own copy protection. "Don't floppy that copy!" --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 13 16:53:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 14:53:35 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk data separators... In-Reply-To: <4C154E91.5020508@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <481896.61814.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4C14E877.18441.11C9238@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C154E91.5020508@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C14F0EF.29803.13DA4A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2010 at 22:33, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Wouldn't that have been handled within the disk controler chip WD177x, > WD[1,2]79x or whatever, could be determined by counting the index > pulses and the time delay between them. On the WD 17xx controllers, there's a "Force Interrupt" command that allows for interrupts on several different conditions, one of them being index pulses. So an RPM check would have been simple to implement, assuming some sort of timer/counter was available. I've got a 1978 floppy controller here that uses about 55 ICs, one of them being a WD1781. A fair amount of the board is taken up by the data separator--it was designed by a guy whose last job was designing read channels for the ISS 3330 clone. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 13 17:43:10 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:43:10 -0600 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 13 Jun 2010 14:40:27 -0700. <4C14EDDB.7799.131A099@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C14EDDB.7799.131A099 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > At least one "PC incompatible" provided a terminate-and-stay-resident > DOS program that translated PC BIOS calls to the native system's > BIOS. I can't see how that could possibly work when you're operating in real mode and you JSR to a specific ROM address. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jun 13 17:47:18 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:47:18 +0200 Subject: RK05 data problems with misaligned drive? Message-ID: <4C155FF6.6080609@hachti.de> Hi folks, I'm just reviving a completely misaligned RK05 drive. I want to get it fully up and running and tested before I use an alignment pack. So I started debugging and got it to the point that I can play with the formatter. Here comes the question: The formatter (RKLFMT under OS/8) threw MANY CRC errors when reading back the freshly formatted disk. Changing the head cables at the drive proved that the problem is only with one head i.e. the failures change "side" when you change the head plugs. Now I ran the test several times. With random failing disk addresses. And they decreased and decreased... Now I've run two error-free formatter rounds. Could it be possible that new data on new tracks (keep in mind that the drive is actually misaligned by means of mechanical alteration!) suffers from interference from old tracks? That's the only reason I can see for this kind of behavior. On the other hand that would mean that I'd have to degauss the pack before I ever could use it reliable again. Any ideas? Kind regards, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 13 17:53:17 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 18:53:17 -0400 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201006131853.17471.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, June 13, 2010, Richard wrote: > In article <4C14EDDB.7799.131A099 at cclist.sydex.com>, > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > At least one "PC incompatible" provided a > > terminate-and-stay-resident DOS program that translated PC BIOS > > calls to the native system's BIOS. > > I can't see how that could possibly work when you're operating in > real mode and you JSR to a specific ROM address. I think that Chuck meant software interrupt calls into the BIOS, which was the more-or-less official way of making BIOS calls (eg, INT 10h, 13h, etc) Also, JSR isn't an x86 instruction. I think you mean "CALL". :P Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 13 18:00:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:00:39 -0700 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4C1500A7.23142.17B0D3B@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jun 2010 at 16:43, Richard wrote: > I can't see how that could possibly work when you're operating in real > mode and you JSR to a specific ROM address. The bulk of PC programs use software interrupt (e.g. INT 13H for disk access, INT 10H for video, etc.) and generally speaking do not issue FAR CALLs to BIOS routines. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 13 19:58:02 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 17:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making Amiga Disks... In-Reply-To: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100613175333.C94418@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 13 Jun 2010, Al Hartman wrote: > I recently picked up an Amiga 500 on eBay. I may have some Workbench > disks that will work with it. > In case I don't. Does anyone have advice on how I can get disk images > and make floppies from them readable by the A500? > I have PC's and Macs with floppy drives available to make the disks. What else do you have? Do you have anything with a WD 179x controller? (that can do a "raw"/non-sectored MFM track read/write) After it is booted, the Amiga can read and write Amiga MFM and IBM/WD MFM. The PC can not read nor write Amiga MFM (well, there are some sleazy little tricks, but I think that they won't enable writing. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 13 21:24:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 22:24:05 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <091c01cb0b36$c51c0b00$1831fea9@Alexandre> References: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <4C09E009.4070505@neurotica.com> <091c01cb0b36$c51c0b00$1831fea9@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4C1592C5.5080604@neurotica.com> On 6/13/10 12:31 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> A project I worked on in those days had four RAM boards each >> containing 576 51C256 chips. I remember thinking for a split second >> "Hmm, how could I get one of those boards out of here?" ;) > > I got **very** curious of what it could be :D 576 ram chips are a lot > of chips for one board :D Pictures? :D I only have one picture that shows the boards, it's a NASA "publicity shot". It can be seen here: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/NSC-sm.jpg The big RAM boards I was talking about above are the four rearmost boards in the rightmost group, and were not yet complete when that picture was taken. They used 51C256 DRAM chips with i8207 DRAM controllers. The machine had a 36 bit word (32 data bits, 4 tag bits) and the memory arrays were 4MW, so 576 chips per board. The astute person will recognize the Unibus form factor boards and DEC chassis. We bought their "OEM" chassis which were just racks, chassis, power supplies, and completely un-wrapped backplanes. The boards are only physically identical to Unibus boards, there are no bus compatibilities of any kind, or any DEC compatibility at all for that matter...we simply used a convenient board shape and size for which very high-quality chassis and backplanes were readily available. That picture was taken in 1987. I'm the guy on the left in the rear row wearing the Adidas T-shirt, if anyone cares. I was 18 at the time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 22:12:42 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:12:42 -0300 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) References: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <4C09E009.4070505@neurotica.com><091c01cb0b36$c51c0b00$1831fea9@Alexandre> <4C1592C5.5080604@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0dbf01cb0b6f$9de8dbb0$1831fea9@Alexandre> > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/NSC-sm.jpg In a word: Wow! > The big RAM boards I was talking about above are the four rearmost > boards in the rightmost group, and were not yet complete when that > picture was taken. They used 51C256 DRAM chips with i8207 DRAM > controllers. The machine had a 36 bit word (32 data bits, 4 tag bits) > and the memory arrays were 4MW, so 576 chips per board. Interesting :) But what was it used for? :o) From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 13 22:41:49 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:41:49 -0600 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 13 Jun 2010 16:00:39 -0700. <4C1500A7.23142.17B0D3B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4C1500A7.23142.17B0D3B at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 13 Jun 2010 at 16:43, Richard wrote: > > > I can't see how that could possibly work when you're operating in real > > mode and you JSR to a specific ROM address. > > The bulk of PC programs use software interrupt (e.g. INT 13H for disk > access, INT 10H for video, etc.) and generally speaking do not issue > FAR CALLs to BIOS routines. If that's the case, then the Apricot was even lamer than I realized for not obtaining even that level of compatibility.. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jonathan.pdp11 at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 08:39:47 2010 From: jonathan.pdp11 at gmail.com (Jonathan PDP11) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 14:39:47 +0100 Subject: Authentic PDP-11 rack available for rescue in London Message-ID: Dear All I have a PDP-11 rack available for rescue in central London. It's just the metal rack, no computer or power supply. Sadly space is no longer available for it. It's the cream-coloured style, about 42-inches tall, with a radiused top, to match your 11/34 and RL02s. Has both sides, top, and two front blanking panels. Has a few rust spots but not too bad. Castors. It looks like this 11/94 . It would really suit someone trying to achieve an authentic "cream period" PDP-11 which I believe began with the 11/04 in 1976. I might be able to find one or two more pieces, I think even an old power supply for a 11/34. Free for anyone who would like to collect it. Would require a van or at least an estate car. Any takers? Kind regards, Jonathan. From bqt at softjar.se Sun Jun 13 12:22:01 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 11:22:01 -0600 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1513B9.4060107@softjar.se> All right. Time to clear up some misconceptions, I see... :-) Nigel Williams wrote: > On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 3:11 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Of course you may simply have some sort of hardware issue going on there as >> well, I'm not familiar with the RQZX1. > > The drives passes the built-in RQZX1 diagnostics, which includes > read/write/verify tests etc. I formatted the SCSI drive via the RQZX1 > too (prior to using the drive on Linux via SIMH to install RSTS/E), > just in case the format process was doing something special (although > I can't imagine what since I understand MSCP masks drive specifics). Well, when you format the drive on the RQZX1, the controller might put down some special information on the disk. But once you move that drive over to your PC, you are no longer talking MSCP, nor are you aware of any special areas set aside by the RQZX1, so you will most likely overwrite any such information making the formatting pointless. Ie, if the RQZX1 is putting some special information on the disk during the formatting, you cannot then take the drive to some other system and connect and use it there expecting things to not become messed up. However, if the RQZX1 does not put down any special information on the disk, what you do should work fine. But in that case, a formatting will not make any difference either. MSCP in a way do more than just "mask drive specifics". I don't have my RQZX1 manuals anywhere near, so I can't say more about any RQZX1 specific things. Sorry... > A next posible step is to use this source-code for a MSCP boot so I > can catch the initial boot load and see what is in the first disk > block (containing the next level bootstrap): > > http://www.slowdeath.com/AK6DN/PDP-11/M9312/23-767A9/23-767A9.lst I doubt that will help. I suspect that it is the controller which just throws an error back at the boot code when it tries to read the boot block. So nothing will be read. > I will also try a different model of SCSI drive too - perhaps the > Quantum Fireball is too much of a good thing (4200RPM 2.1GB); I have > an old clunker of a Quantum ProDrive 80S (3600 RPM 80MB!) > > Does anyone know how SCSI ID's are mapped to MSCP LUNs? so far the > RQZX1 appears to map the first SCSI ID (in my case #4) to LUN 0 (which > is what I want) - I am assuming it just does them in sequence. I would have thought that SCSI id #0 should map to LUN 0. #4 have traditionally been reserved for tapes (or was that CD?), although that could also have been #5 or #6. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Sun Jun 13 12:28:42 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 11:28:42 -0600 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C15154A.5020703@softjar.se> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >I will also try a different model of SCSI drive too - perhaps the >> >Quantum Fireball is too much of a good thing (4200RPM 2.1GB); I have >> >an old clunker of a Quantum ProDrive 80S (3600 RPM 80MB!) > > Do you happen to have any DEC RZ2x HD's? I'd recommend giving those > a try. While RSTS/E 10.1 doesn't require these, it is possible that > the RQZX1 does, or the combination of the board and RSTS/E does. No, that will not help. But I agree that those drives are nice. > RSTS/E can be touchy. I was totally unable to install DECnet/E from > 4mm DAT using a TLZ06, even though I installed RSTS/E 10.1 that way. > On the other hand the install worked just fine using a TK50 and TKZ30 > drive. RSTS/E is sometimes very picky, which is sad. It absolutely requires that some stuff be installed from a specific type of tape drive, that write protection is on, or other weird requirements for things to succeed. I think John Wilson documented that pretty good in his E11 manual. Other PDP-11 OSes are more sensible. I don't know why DEC did things so strange in this aspect for RSTS/E. > Personally I'm using a PDP-11/73, Viking QDT, a 50-pin 2GB Seagate > Barracuda SCSI HD, and a Plextor 8x Caddy CD-ROM drive to run 10.1. Me, I'm using a CQD-220, five different SCSI disks, DAT, Exabyte, and occasionally I've also had different CD-ROM drives in there as well. But I've only run RSX and 2.11BSD on my hardware. (11/83, 11/84 and 11/93 systems). (Well, the 11/84 used a CDU-720, but anyway...) Johnny From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jun 13 14:35:55 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 15:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Making Amiga Disks... In-Reply-To: References: <836589.77068.qm@web55308.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jun 2010, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:25 AM -0700 6/13/10, Al Hartman wrote: >> I recently picked up an Amiga 500 on eBay. I may have some Workbench disks >> that will work with it. >> >> In case I don't. Does anyone have advice on how I can get disk images and >> make floppies from them readable by the A500? >> >> I have PC's and Macs with floppy drives available to make the disks. > > Off the top of my head, I think you'll need a Catweasel board to put in a PC. > Having just an A500 makes it more than a little difficult. I'm still trying > to find my A500, so I can see if I can get it working again. I've found the > A3000, but not its keyboard. :-( The A500 should be able to read MS-DOS formatted 720k diskettes for general file transfer, but I don't think it can boot from that format. -- From wysoft at hotmail.com Sun Jun 13 20:19:25 2010 From: wysoft at hotmail.com (Jeff Wyman) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 01:19:25 +0000 Subject: Cromemco Z2-D system and accessories in Seattle, WA - Wish to donate Message-ID: I would like to note to all that the system has been claimed and given a new home. Thanks to all of those who responded. Jeff ---------------------------------------- > From: wysoft at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Cromemco Z2-D system and accessories in Seattle, WA - Wish to donate > Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 20:02:41 +0000 > > > Greetings, > > I'm posting here to inquire about the possibility of someone wanting to take this old Cromemco off my hands. I appreciate all that it is, and it has some family history behind it, but no one else in my family seems to want it, and it's far beyond my era of interest, so... Here we are. > > The system itself is in good physical shape - no damage, structural or cosmetic. My late uncle also built a wooden rolling base for the system, which includes additional power outlets for peripherals, and a remote reset switch. He developed software for Boeing on this machine, and I imagine it was pressed a lot. > > Based on the advice of others, to avoid damage to the unit I have not powered on the unit or plugged it in. > > Hardware installed in unit: > CPU board, 4FDC, 8PIO, two 64KZ boards > > Additional hardware, still in boxes: > 16-FDC, four 16KZ boards, two WANGCO floppy drives > > Zenith Z-29 terminal is also included if you wish, though I had originally intended to keep it. I used it over a year ago to do VAX stuff, and it still worked. There is also a printed manual. > > Printed and bound documentation: > Word Processing System, Cromix Operating System, Database Management System, Cromemco Extended BASIC, Z-80 Macro Assembler, Link and Lib, CDOS, FORTRAN IV, Cromemco System & Components, Cromemco Trace System Simulator, Zilog Z-80 Tech Reference > > There's also a huge stack of assorted manuals, catalogs, etc. My uncle really kept everything. Also included are a fair amount of my uncle's scribblings and notes, some of which might be helpful to you. > > Software (almost too much to list): > CDOS 2.36, CDOS 2.54, Z80 Macro Assembler, Word Processing System 4.06 & 6.0, FORTRAN & utilities, CROMIX, Database Management System 3.05, Database Report Language 1.0, Relocatable Assembler, BASIC 5.2, 16K Extended BASIC, COBOL, Database 0.02 (?), Drivers (?) > > I'll gladly snap photos if you wish. > > I would really, really like to avoid having to dispose of this stuff. I never knew my uncle, but if I hadn't taken this stuff from where it sat for the past twenty years in my grandmother's basement, it would have ended up in the trash. Hopefully someone here can make good use of it. > > I'm in Bremerton, WA. I'll drive to meet you within a reasonable distance. Please let me know if you have any additional questions. > > Thanks, > Jeff > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Jun 14 02:12:04 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:12:04 +1000 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: <4C1513B9.4060107@softjar.se> References: <4C1513B9.4060107@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:22 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > All right. Time to clear up some misconceptions, I see... :-) Thank you (and Jerome/Zane) for taking the time to explain and educate, I hope I am learning quickly. > Nigel Williams wrote: > Ie, if the RQZX1 is putting some special information on the disk during the > formatting, you cannot then take the drive to some other system and connect > and use it there expecting things to not become messed up. fair point - I sort of hoped any underlying format changes would be invisible to UNIX's stream-of-blocks(characters) view of the world. I have a plan B - if I can find a way to convert the .TAP file and then "dd" onto a DDS tape I can try booting that by attaching a TZL09 to the RQZX1. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Jun 14 06:20:06 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 21:20:06 +1000 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4C1513B9.4060107@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > I have a plan B - if I can find a way to convert the .TAP file and > then "dd" onto a DDS tape I can try booting that by attaching a TZL09 > to the RQZX1. Crash goes that plan...the RQZX1 does not allow mixed devices on the SCSI side, so no tape and disk together. Does anyone know what interface the RQZX1 has for tape? it looks like it could accept a TK70 cable. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 14 09:43:49 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:43:49 -0500 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C164025.1080808@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Sorry to hear that, Tony. We've got three cats here and two dogs, and it'd be > > Thank you... It appears you collect pets like I collect HP destops... They're like little hairy computers with astounding I/O abilities ;-) >> hard losing any of them (we did lose a dog last year, and a cat the year >> before that). I'm typing this* while trying to balance a spaniel in my lap > > Pentina never tried to sit on my lap. His trick was to dig his claws into > my leg when I was trying to assembly something complciated and delicate. > And I loved him for it. Spaniel-features is the only one of ours that does it, but he doesn't usually last long - just enough to head butt me a few times, bash his chin on the keyboard, and knock something off the desk. >> I'd suggest checking freecycle for a cat or kitten when the time comes - I >> always figure that the ones at pet shelters at least have some sort of chance, >> but the freecycle freebies are the ones in real danger of being abandoned. > > Thansk, I didn;t realise that freecycle had pets listed on it. I will ook > there. Actually, maybe it's not universal, so check local policies. My local one is full of kittens unfortunately :-( (well, good if you're in the market for a kitten, but bad for a lot of the kittens, I suspect) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 14 09:49:44 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 09:49:44 -0500 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net>, <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C164188.2090702@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > But foreign matter is usually the problem. Today I ate an oatmeal > cookie over my model M and the return key stuck. Turning the > keyboard upside down and giving it a couple raps on the desktop > dropped the crud out. It's bad design on IBM's part that they didn't come with foreign matter drain holes at either end of the case :-) My M is due another clean, I think - it's started to take on that "mottled dark gray" appearance. > If you really need to open it up, a 7/32" thinshell nutdriver or > socket--most are too thick to completely fit down the recess. Snap- > on, Sears and K-D carry them. That's useful; I don't have any and had wondered where to get them. I'd briefly wondered about buying a cheap 'regular' set and grinding them down as necessary. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 14 09:48:58 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 08:48:58 -0600 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C164025.1080808@gmail.com> References: <4C164025.1080808@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C16415A.2090301@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Actually, maybe it's not universal, so check local policies. My local > one is full of kittens unfortunately :-( (well, good if you're in the > market for a kitten, but bad for a lot of the kittens, I suspect) Well they grow into cats. Don't get picky if you can give a animal a new home. > cheers > > Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 14 09:55:16 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 10:55:16 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C164188.2090702@gmail.com> References: , <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net>, <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com> <4C164188.2090702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C1642D4.1010905@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >> But foreign matter is usually the problem. Today I ate an oatmeal >> cookie over my model M and the return key stuck. Turning the keyboard >> upside down and giving it a couple raps on the desktop dropped the >> crud out. > > It's bad design on IBM's part that they didn't come with foreign matter > drain holes at either end of the case :-) Don't the later ones have that? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 14 10:10:36 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:10:36 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C16415A.2090301@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C164025.1080808@gmail.com> <4C16415A.2090301@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C16466C.8040903@neurotica.com> On 6/14/10 10:48 AM, Ben wrote: >> Actually, maybe it's not universal, so check local policies. My local >> one is full of kittens unfortunately :-( (well, good if you're in the >> market for a kitten, but bad for a lot of the kittens, I suspect) > > Well they grow into cats. Don't get picky if you can give a animal > a new home. Yes, but...Every little girl in the world wants a kitten, leaving perfectly wonderful grown cats left at adoption agencies. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jun 14 10:39:00 2010 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 10:39:00 -0500 Subject: looking for a working 11/05 (KD11-B) board setu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C164D14.4040509@ubanproductions.com> Tony, I understand and respect your views and knowledge greatly. I have very limited time these days, but at some point in the future I expect to have time to enjoy the restoration of my collection. When that time comes, I would like to have a spare set of processor boards strictly from the standpoint that as the 11/05 has some LSI components, at some point it seems likely that one of them will fail. As the boards are not becoming any easier to come by, I would rather find a set now than wait until they become unobtainium. When I last looked at this machine, I did in fact verify that all of the power supplies were correct and clean. It has been long enough ago that I don't recall the exact error condition that the machine was exhibiting, so I cannot describe it at the moment. The problem could well be with some other portion of the system than in the processor proper, and this is highly likely as you have stated, but it does not eliminate the fact that I would still like to find a set of spare processor boards, and as long as I am finding a spare set, I would like them to be known to be working. Cheers, --tom Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony has a good point here: it's usually the support stuff (power supplies,= >> connectors) that bugger up a machine of this simplicity. -- Ian=20 > > Even if it isnt, I fail to see what good a spare CPU board set will do. > > I know I am in aminority here, but I truely believe the only way to put > something right is to find the fault, and then to correct that fualt. Not > to randomly swap parts until the machine _appears_ to work again. > > In any case, I don't know anyone who would be prepared to risk any PCB in > a machine where the health of the PSU isn't known. > > The first thing to do is to discover just what it is and isn't doing. If > it were my machine I would start by checking the PSU with a meter and > 'scope. PSU problems can make you think there's something wrong with just > about any part of the machine. > > Then I would try reading and writing memory. If that fails. I'd stick in > a DL11 or something and try reading and writing that (if that works, it's > _likely_ there's a problem in the memroy section). And look at the Unibus > lines when doing meoroy accesses from the panel -- do they look right? If > not, there probably is a problem in the CPU -- then it's time to see > which signal(s) are wrong, what drives them, could there be a common > cause, check 'earlier' signals in the CPU logic, and so on. > > -tony > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 14 13:01:13 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:01:13 +0100 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C1642D4.1010905@gmail.com> References: , <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net>, <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com> <4C164188.2090702@gmail.com> <4C1642D4.1010905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C166E69.5000904@philpem.me.uk> On 14/06/10 15:55, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> It's bad design on IBM's part that they didn't come with foreign matter >> drain holes at either end of the case :-) > > Don't the later ones have that? Most Thinkpads do. "Arrgh, I spilled Coke on my laptop... AARGH MY TROUSER LEG IS SOAKED AND I'VE GOT A MEETING WITH THE BOSS IN FIVE MINUTES!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jun 14 13:25:45 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:25:45 -0500 Subject: looking for a working 11/05 (KD11-B) board setu In-Reply-To: <4C164D14.4040509@ubanproductions.com> References: <4C164D14.4040509@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Hi Tom, I have a set and memory you can borrow for a month or so if that will help. If you wish to purchase them, feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 10:39 AM, Tom Uban wrote: > Tony, > > I understand and respect your views and knowledge greatly. I have very > limited time these days, but at some point in the future I expect to have > time to enjoy the restoration of my collection. When that time comes, I > would like to have a spare set of processor boards strictly from the > standpoint that as the 11/05 has some LSI components, at some point it > seems likely that one of them will fail. As the boards are not becoming > any easier to come by, I would rather find a set now than wait until they > become unobtainium. > > When I last looked at this machine, I did in fact verify that all of the > power supplies were correct and clean. It has been long enough ago that > I don't recall the exact error condition that the machine was exhibiting, > so I cannot describe it at the moment. The problem could well be with > some other portion of the system than in the processor proper, and this > is highly likely as you have stated, but it does not eliminate the fact > that I would still like to find a set of spare processor boards, and as > long as I am finding a spare set, I would like them to be known to be > working. > > Cheers, > > --tom > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Tony has a good point here: it's usually the support stuff (power > supplies,= > >> connectors) that bugger up a machine of this simplicity. -- Ian=20 > > > > Even if it isnt, I fail to see what good a spare CPU board set will do. > > > > I know I am in aminority here, but I truely believe the only way to put > > something right is to find the fault, and then to correct that fualt. Not > > to randomly swap parts until the machine _appears_ to work again. > > > > In any case, I don't know anyone who would be prepared to risk any PCB in > > a machine where the health of the PSU isn't known. > > > > The first thing to do is to discover just what it is and isn't doing. If > > it were my machine I would start by checking the PSU with a meter and > > 'scope. PSU problems can make you think there's something wrong with just > > about any part of the machine. > > > > Then I would try reading and writing memory. If that fails. I'd stick in > > a DL11 or something and try reading and writing that (if that works, it's > > _likely_ there's a problem in the memroy section). And look at the Unibus > > lines when doing meoroy accesses from the panel -- do they look right? If > > not, there probably is a problem in the CPU -- then it's time to see > > which signal(s) are wrong, what drives them, could there be a common > > cause, check 'earlier' signals in the CPU logic, and so on. > > > > -tony > > > > > > From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jun 14 13:38:21 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:38:21 -0700 Subject: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C13A2E7.6010002@softjar.se> References: <4C13A2E7.6010002@softjar.se> Message-ID: From: Johnny Billquist Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2010 8:08 AM > I totally forgot that I wrote a Emacs-clone for TECO8, which is what I > normally use. That one I have probably not posted anywhere anytime. But > we also have VISTA, which was available from DECUS, and which I have. I > think I made it available, and maybe others have too. > So for people in general, you have atleast two options, and I should > post my EMACS.TE sometime too... Yes, please! (Old Usenet .sig which Johnny probably remembers: Rich Alderson Last LOTS Tops-20 Systems Programmer, 1984-1991 Current maintainer, MIT TECO EMACS (v. 170) last name @ XKL dot COM Customer Interface, XKL LLC ) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 14 13:41:02 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:41:02 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C166E69.5000904@philpem.me.uk> References: , <4C0E512E.3040106@att.net>, <20100608160210.A89848@shell.lmi.net> <4C0E88D1.19909.2474D03@cclist.sydex.com> <4C164188.2090702@gmail.com> <4C1642D4.1010905@gmail.com> <4C166E69.5000904@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C1677BE.1090409@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> It's bad design on IBM's part that they didn't come with foreign matter >>> drain holes at either end of the case :-) >> >> Don't the later ones have that? > > Most Thinkpads do. Yeah, I knew that, but I think the post-1992 (1993?) Model Ms have it too. Peace... Sridhar From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Mon Jun 14 13:41:28 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:41:28 +0200 Subject: looking for a working 11/05 (KD11-B) board setu In-Reply-To: <4C164D14.4040509@ubanproductions.com> References: <4C164D14.4040509@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: My 11/05 http://www.conservatique.com/pdp/pdp-1105 You don't need memory to run a (short) program on the 11/05, since the registers are mapped at locations 177700 to 177707 ;-) St?phane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 13:46:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:46:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <091901cb0b36$c0b1d310$1831fea9@Alexandre> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jun 13, 10 12:59:26 pm Message-ID: > > >> Why isn't something similar done now. Have an adapter containint eh > >> electronics which lasts for a long time, and just replace the fluorescent > >> tube when it fails? > > Profit. > > Maybe I'm wrong, but don't you have PL lamps? These are common in > Brazil...An adapter you screw on the base, and a replaceable lamp. I think i mentioned those. Lasttime I looked, you could still get the PL tubes easily, the holders and inducive ballasts are still available if you want to make light fittings using them. But I've not seen the BC-cap ballast adaptors for a long time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 13:55:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:55:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: RK05 data problems with misaligned drive? In-Reply-To: <4C155FF6.6080609@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jun 14, 10 00:47:18 am Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > I'm just reviving a completely misaligned RK05 drive. I want to get it fully up and running and > tested before I use an alignment pack. So I started debugging and got it to the point that I can > play with the formatter. > > Here comes the question: The formatter (RKLFMT under OS/8) threw MANY CRC errors when reading back > the freshly formatted disk. Changing the head cables at the drive proved that the problem is only > with one head i.e. the failures change "side" when you change the head plugs. > Now I ran the test several times. With random failing disk addresses. And they decreased and > decreased... Now I've run two error-free formatter rounds. > > Could it be possible that new data on new tracks (keep in mind that the drive is actually misaligned > by means of mechanical alteration!) suffers from interference from old tracks? That's the only > reason I can see for this kind of behavior. I think that's unlikely. There is a tunnel erase head which essentially wipes out any old data that might be picked up by the read head. Do you know if the heads are good? I've had at least one RK05 head that tested OK electrically, looked clean, but which procuded no signal > > On the other hand that would mean that I'd have to degauss the pack before I ever could use it > reliable again. Since there's no servo infromation or anything like that on an RK05 pack, there is no reason why you can't degauss it. Do yuo have any more packs? If so, try formatting another one. If that passes with no CRC errors, it would appear to be a head problem which has got better as the drive was used. If you get CRC errors at first which go away if you format it a few times, it would apperar to be your suggestion of old data causing problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 14:34:18 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:34:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C164025.1080808@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 14, 10 09:43:49 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Sorry to hear that, Tony. We've got three cats here and two dogs, and it'd be > > > > Thank you... It appears you collect pets like I collect HP destops... > > They're like little hairy computers with astounding I/O abilities ;-) They certainly have some amazing real-time data input systems.... It's a pity you can't dump the microcode out of a cat and disassemble it. > > Thansk, I didn;t realise that freecycle had pets listed on it. I will ook > > there. > > Actually, maybe it's not universal, so check local policies. My local one is > full of kittens unfortunately :-( (well, good if you're in the market for a > kitten, but bad for a lot of the kittens, I suspect) Indeed... There are several cat rescue homes around here who are always looking for good homes for cats of all ages. I will check those too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 14:36:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:36:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C164188.2090702@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 14, 10 09:49:44 am Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > But foreign matter is usually the problem. Today I ate an oatmeal > > cookie over my model M and the return key stuck. Turning the > > keyboard upside down and giving it a couple raps on the desktop > > dropped the crud out. > > It's bad design on IBM's part that they didn't come with foreign matter drain > holes at either end of the case :-) IIRC the BBC micro did... > > My M is due another clean, I think - it's started to take on that "mottled > dark gray" appearance. > > > If you really need to open it up, a 7/32" thinshell nutdriver or > > socket--most are too thick to completely fit down the recess. Snap- > > on, Sears and K-D carry them. > > That's useful; I don't have any and had wondered where to get them. I'd > briefly wondered about buying a cheap 'regular' set and grinding them down as > necessary. I've found the nutdriver in my Xcellite System 99 kit fits with no problems. Buyt once you've got the casing off, disassembling and even more reassembling the sandwich is the hard part. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 14:37:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:37:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C16415A.2090301@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jun 14, 10 08:48:58 am Message-ID: > Well they grow into cats. Don't get picky if you can give a animal > a new home. True, but unfortunately, I can't possibly home all the homeless and unwanted cats and kittens myself :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 14:42:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:42:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for a working 11/05 (KD11-B) board setu In-Reply-To: <4C164D14.4040509@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Jun 14, 10 10:39:00 am Message-ID: > standpoint that as the 11/05 has some LSI components, at some point it Does it? Well, I suppsoe there are 74181 ALus, and the mcirocode ROMs which I would class as MSI. And the UART chip for the console port. What else is there? Apart from the ROMs (and listings are in the printset), I can't think of a single custom IC in an 11/05 > I don't recall the exact error condition that the machine was exhibiting, If you post the problem here, then I am sure we can help you track it down. > so I cannot describe it at the moment. The problem could well be with > some other portion of the system than in the processor proper, and this > is highly likely as you have stated, but it does not eliminate the fact > that I would still like to find a set of spare processor boards, and as > long as I am finding a spare set, I would like them to be known to be > working. It's odd, but I have never wanted to obtain spware boards for any of my machines. Spare chips are another matter. I guess it's because I can repair boards, I can't repair chips. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 14 15:02:47 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:02:47 -0600 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C168AE7.8060806@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> Well they grow into cats. Don't get picky if you can give a animal >> a new home. > > True, but unfortunately, I can't possibly home all the homeless and > unwanted cats and kittens myself :-( Take them to work. :) > -tony > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 14 15:54:04 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:54:04 -0700 Subject: amiga floppy disk reading experience In-Reply-To: <4C14C0D0.14233.81AC69@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C116378.8020802@verizon.net>, <4C141680.2114.325B53B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C1482DB.6030802@brouhaha.com> <4C14C0D0.14233.81AC69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C1696EC.5040806@brouhaha.com> On 06/13/2010 11:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Play along with me on this one. Well, yes, if you elaborate on the design until it is a PLL, then it is a PLL. The point I was disagreeing with is that using a fixed frequency and only adjusting the instantaneous phase when a pulse occurs is a simple kind of PLL, since it isn't. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 14 15:56:18 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:56:18 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk data separators... In-Reply-To: <4C14F0EF.29803.13DA4A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <481896.61814.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4C14E877.18441.11C9238@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C154E91.5020508@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C14F0EF.29803.13DA4A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C169772.8080807@brouhaha.com> On 06/13/2010 02:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a 1978 floppy controller here that uses about 55 ICs, one of > them being a WD1781. A fair amount of the board is taken up by the > data separator--it was designed by a guy whose last job was designing > read channels for the ISS 3330 clone. > What system is it for? I've heard of the 1781, but never seen one. It was designed to be useful with encodings other than FM and MFM, such as M2FM. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 14 15:58:28 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 13:58:28 -0700 Subject: RK05 data problems with misaligned drive? In-Reply-To: <4C155FF6.6080609@hachti.de> References: <4C155FF6.6080609@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C1697F4.9030208@brouhaha.com> On 06/13/2010 03:47 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > I'm just reviving a completely misaligned RK05 drive. I want to get it > fully up and running and tested before I use an alignment pack. So I > started debugging and got it to the point that I can play with the > formatter. > > Here comes the question: The formatter (RKLFMT under OS/8) threw MANY > CRC errors when reading back the freshly formatted disk. If the drive can't read back a pack it has just formatted, you've got more problems than the positioner alignment. I'm not an expert on RK05 maintenance, though. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 14 16:12:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 14:12:12 -0700 Subject: Floppy disk data separators... In-Reply-To: <4C169772.8080807@brouhaha.com> References: <481896.61814.qm@web112414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4C14F0EF.29803.13DA4A6@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C169772.8080807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C1638BC.7805.11D981F@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jun 2010 at 13:56, Eric Smith wrote: > On 06/13/2010 02:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've got a 1978 floppy controller here that uses about 55 ICs, one > > of them being a WD1781. A fair amount of the board is taken up by > > the data separator--it was designed by a guy whose last job was > > designing read channels for the ISS 3330 clone. > > > What system is it for? I've heard of the 1781, but never seen one. > It was designed to be useful with encodings other than FM and MFM, > such as M2FM. Durango 800 (aka the F-85). With the 1781 and GCR, you got 940KB (12 sectors of 512 bytes per track) on a 100 tpi DS2D floppy. The 1781 was pretty buggy, showing a tendency to hang now and then, so a bit in a latch was used to toggle the MR/ pin. I still have 2 of these systems. --Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jun 14 16:54:17 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 23:54:17 +0200 Subject: RK05 data problems with misaligned drive? In-Reply-To: <4C1697F4.9030208@brouhaha.com> References: <4C155FF6.6080609@hachti.de> <4C1697F4.9030208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C16A509.30305@hachti.de> On 14.06.2010 22:58, Eric Smith wrote: > If the drive can't read back a pack it has just formatted, you've got > more problems than the positioner alignment. I'm not an expert on RK05 > maintenance, though. The alignment *should* be no problem. My question was if there *could* be interference of old data with differently aligned new data. That could happen if the read side is able to sense more (in a way of geometry) than the erase/write part treat when writing. I already like the drive. It had many more problems. It's one of the worst I've got so far :-) The first I saw of this drive was a fallen apart transducer and smoke from the PSU... -- http://www.hachti.de From tingox at gmail.com Mon Jun 14 13:02:34 2010 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:02:34 +0200 Subject: asteroids board In-Reply-To: <091701cb0b36$bdbbc490$1831fea9@Alexandre> References: <4BFE0DE6.7050801@comcast.net> <091701cb0b36$bdbbc490$1831fea9@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas < pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote: > Then there's this one that went offline that I was hoping that somebody has >> it mirrored. >> > > Something I always do is to mirror a site (and make it avaiable, if > possible, on the web) if the content is interesting enough and I suspect it > can ever come offline. Some things are too valuable to be missed. > Sometimes the Wayback Machine have the site too: http://www.archive.org/web/web.php HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From bqt at softjar.se Mon Jun 14 13:16:17 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:16:17 -0600 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1671F1.3020607@softjar.se> Nigel Williams wrote: > On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 3:22 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > All right. Time to clear up some misconceptions, I see... :-) > > Thank you (and Jerome/Zane) for taking the time to explain and > educate, I hope I am learning quickly. No problem, and the questions so far have not been simple or obvious, so I think it's actually good questions, which also others might benifit from. And just as you ask, you'll probably suddenly realize that you're answering some too... >> > Nigel Williams wrote: >> > Ie, if the RQZX1 is putting some special information on the disk during the >> > formatting, you cannot then take the drive to some other system and connect >> > and use it there expecting things to not become messed up. > > fair point - I sort of hoped any underlying format changes would be > invisible to UNIX's stream-of-blocks(characters) view of the world. The basic formatting of a disk is the same for all. In fact, with SCSI, you just send a command to the disk itself, asking it to format itself. So there can't be any differences on that level. If the RQZX1 is doing some tricks, it will have to be that it hides some blocks for it's own use, and put data there that it "needs". Those will be normal disk blocks, and another controller will see them as just simple data blocks in that case. However, I should stress that I do not know if the RQZX1 really does this or not. I know that the CMD controllers do not. I've written disks on a Unix machine, and moved them over to a PDP-11 without problems. But I have not tried this with the RQZX1, so I don't know if anything is different with that controller. > I have a plan B - if I can find a way to convert the .TAP file and > then "dd" onto a DDS tape I can try booting that by attaching a TZL09 > to the RQZX1. Should be doable. > On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Nigel Williams > wrote: >> > I have a plan B - if I can find a way to convert the .TAP file and >> > then "dd" onto a DDS tape I can try booting that by attaching a TZL09 >> > to the RQZX1. > > Crash goes that plan...the RQZX1 does not allow mixed devices on the > SCSI side, so no tape and disk together. Hum? I thought it could. However, you might need to move jumpers around to allow for that. This also made me realize that maybe you have your controller configured in a specific way that explains a thing or two for me. The RQZX1 can be configured as disk-tape or disk-disk. In the disk-disk case, one of the disks will use SCSI units 0-3, while the other will use units 4-6. That would totally explain why your SCSI id 4 maps to MSCP lun 0. You're on the "second" disk controller. And that also explains why you cannot use any tapes. As I said before, I don't have a RQZX1 manual anywhere near, so I can't help with the configuration here, but I suspect you might want to look more at this. > Does anyone know what interface the RQZX1 has for tape? it looks like > it could accept a TK70 cable. Just SCSI as far as I know. The only other connection is for a floppy, unless I remember wrong. Johnny From harry at systemresale.com Mon Jun 14 14:29:11 2010 From: harry at systemresale.com (Harry McMaster) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:29:11 -0400 Subject: Emulex UC17 UNIBUS SCSI boards Message-ID: <4C168307.90100@systemresale.com> I have a customer who may be interested . How much would you like to sell them for? -- *Harry McMaster* President P 519-763-3391 ext:223 F 519-763-9241 C 519-841-3391 www.systemresale.com <%3Fwww.systemresale.com%3F> From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jun 14 17:01:49 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:01:49 +0200 Subject: RK05 data problems with misaligned drive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C16A6CD.6010801@hachti.de> Salut Tony, > I think that's unlikely. There is a tunnel erase head which essentially > wipes out any old data that might be picked up by the read head. You mean that the erased trace is guaranteed to be broader than the area that can be sensed by the read head? > Do you know if the heads are good? I've had at least one RK05 head that > tested OK electrically, looked clean, but which procuded no signal Oh, I cleaned them. And they look white. And I actually CAN read and write with both heads. But there are errors from time to time. And the error frequency seemed to drop with every time I format the pack... Perhaps it's something at the write side... No idea. I'll grab some heads and throw them at the drive. Then I'll try again. Currently I have to find a new blower for the unit 0 RK05 of my test system. It shorted and burned yesterday while playing with the rotten drive. >> >> On the other hand that would mean that I'd have to degauss the pack before I ever could use it >> reliable again. > Since there's no servo infromation or anything like that on an RK05 pack, > there is no reason why you can't degauss it. Of course, I *can* degauss the pack. The question is if I *must* degauss a pack before using it with new track positions. > Do yuo have any more packs? Of course. > If you get CRC errors at first which go > away if you format it a few times, it would apperar to be your suggestion > of old data causing problems. If I had a degausser I'd immediately try it out. I already thougt about a program that writes random data to the disk. Again, again, and again. That could level out the area around the tracks. Another possibility: My idea is complete bullshit :-) Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jun 14 17:05:59 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:05:59 +0200 Subject: DEC TC02 available Message-ID: <4C16A7C7.8060701@hachti.de> Hi, I have a TC02 DECTape controller for pdp15 available. Reasonable offers welcome. Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 14 20:05:29 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 02:05:29 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator Message-ID: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Here's something for you lot to play with. It's a software implementation of the "Phase Jerked Loop" data separator, in C++ (although most of the logic is C), complete with notes... This is extremely sub-optimal, but "It Works For Me"... :) Tests against the old "Helix" decoder engine (the "smart" histogram analyser that really is anything but) are still ongoing. As a bare minimum, the timing figures need to be optimised -- most timesteps will end up with no accompanying state change. If you can eliminate some of these timesteps, you can speed up the code quite a bit. The catch is that the timestep must be a multiple of NSECS_PER_PLLCK/2, NSECS_PER_PLLCK and NSECS_PER_ACQ... The optimal value should be lcm(NSECS_PER_PLLCK/2, NSECS_PER_ACQ) [lcm = lowest common multiple]. Optimising the timing factors for a given acq-clock is likely to be the hardest part of the whole process... I'm willing to bet it'll work with data grabbed from a Catweasel, but I don't have any test data to play with... so that's left as an exercise to the reader. mfmbits is a vector which starts out empty and contains the output MFM bits after the loop has run. A sync marker will appear in mfmbits as 0x4489. buf is either an array or a vector containing integers of any sane size. These represent the timing values in units of Tacq (Tacq = 1/Facq, the frequency at which the acquisition counter is incremented). buflen is the length of this buffer. License is GPLv2, code is copyrighted to me. If you want to use this in closed-source software, email me and ask for a less restrictive licence. I'm getting pretty pissed off with people in the floppy disc preservation/analysis field keeping their toys to themselves (*cough* SPS), and have no intention of contributing further to such nonsense. > /** > * This is a software implementation of Jim Thompson's Phase-Jerked Loop > * design, available from AnalogInnovations.com as the PDF file > * "FloppyDataExtractor.pdf". > * > * This consists of: > * A data synchroniser which forces RD_DATA to be active for 2 clock cycles. > * A counter which increments constantly while the PLL is running, and is > * reset to zero on an incoming data bit. > * Whenever the counter reaches half of its maximum value, a > * new data window is started. > */ > > // Nanoseconds counters. Increment once per loop or "virtual" nanosecond > unsigned long nsecs1 = 0, nsecs2=0; > // Number of nanoseconds per acq tick -- (1/freq)*1e9. This is valid for 40MHz. > const unsigned long NSECS_PER_ACQ = 25; > // Number of nanoseconds per PLLCK tick -- (1/16e6)*1e9. 16MHz. > // This should be the reciprocal of 32 times the data rate in kbps, multiplied > // by 1e9 to get the time in nanoseconds. > const unsigned long NSECS_PER_PLLCK = 125/2; > // Number of clock increments per loop (timing granularity) > const unsigned long TIMER_INCREMENT = 1; > // Maximum value of the PJL counter. Determines the granularity of phase changes. > const unsigned char PJL_COUNTER_MAX = 16; > > // Iterator for data buffer > size_t i = 0; > > // True if RD_DATA was high in this clock cycle > bool rd_latch = false; > // Same but only active for 2Tcy (SHAPED_DATA) > int shaped_data = 0; > > // Phase Jerked Loop counter > unsigned char pjl_shifter = 0; > > // data window > unsigned char data_window = 0; > > #ifdef VCD > FILE *vcd = fopen("values.vcd", "wt"); > fprintf(vcd, "$version DiscFerret Analyser D2/DPLL 0.1 $end\n" > "$timescale 1 ns $end\n" > "$var reg 1 * clock $end\n" > "$var reg 1 ' pll_clock $end\n" > "$var reg 1 ! rd_data $end\n" > "$var reg 1 %% rd_data_latched $end\n" > "$var reg 1 ^ shaped_data $end\n" > "$var reg 8 & pjl_shifter $end\n" > "$var reg 1 ( data_window $end\n" > "$upscope $end\n" > "$enddefinitions $end\n" > "$dumpall\n" > "0*\n" > "0'\n" > "0!\n" > "0%%\n" > "0^\n" > "b00000000 &\n" > "0(\n" > "$end\n" > ); > #endif > do { > // Increment counters > nsecs1 += TIMER_INCREMENT; > nsecs2 += TIMER_INCREMENT; > > // Loop 1 -- floppy disc read channel > if (nsecs1 >= (buf[i] * NSECS_PER_ACQ)) { > // Flux transition. Set the read latches. > rd_latch = true; > shaped_data = 2; > > // Update nanoseconds counter for read channel, retain error factor > nsecs1 -= (buf[i] * NSECS_PER_ACQ); > > // Update buffer position > i++; > } > > // Loop 2 -- DPLL channel > if (nsecs2 >= NSECS_PER_PLLCK) { > // Update nanoseconds counter for PLL, retain error factor > nsecs2 -= NSECS_PER_PLLCK; > > // PJL loop > if (shaped_data > 0) { > pjl_shifter = 0; > } else { > // increment shifter > pjl_shifter = (pjl_shifter + 1) % PJL_COUNTER_MAX; > } > > // DWIN detect > if (pjl_shifter == (PJL_COUNTER_MAX / 2)) { > // Data window toggle. Latch the current RD_LATCH blob into the output buffer. > mfmbits.push_back(rd_latch); > // Clear the data latch ready for the next data window. > rd_latch = false; > // Update DWIN > data_window ^= 0x01; > } > > // Update shaped-data time counter > if (shaped_data > 0) shaped_data--; > } > } while (i < buflen); > > printf("mfmbits count = %lu\n", mfmbits.size()); -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 14 20:43:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:43:15 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2010 at 2:05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Here's something for you lot to play with. It's a software > implementation of the "Phase Jerked Loop" data separator, in C++ > (although most of the logic is C), complete with notes... Phil, this thing seems to pay attention to the duration of the read pulse, instead of the edge. Do I read this right? That would seem to be pointless, as it's the edge of the read pulse that matters. Just as you find in index pulses, read pulse widths can vary all over the place, depending on the drive. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 14 23:02:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:02:27 -0400 Subject: Lightbulb police? (was RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: <0dbf01cb0b6f$9de8dbb0$1831fea9@Alexandre> References: <4C09A95A.40304@gmail.com> <4C096530.15375.3367CF2@cclist.sydex.com> <4C09E009.4070505@neurotica.com><091c01cb0b36$c51c0b00$1831fea9@Alexandre> <4C1592C5.5080604@neurotica.com> <0dbf01cb0b6f$9de8dbb0$1831fea9@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4C16FB53.8090603@neurotica.com> On 6/13/10 11:12 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/NSC-sm.jpg > > In a word: Wow! Yes, it was a neat machine. >> The big RAM boards I was talking about above are the four rearmost >> boards in the rightmost group, and were not yet complete when that >> picture was taken. They used 51C256 DRAM chips with i8207 DRAM >> controllers. The machine had a 36 bit word (32 data bits, 4 tag bits) >> and the memory arrays were 4MW, so 576 chips per board. > > Interesting :) But what was it used for? :o) It was designed under a NASA grant for fluid dynamics research. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 14 23:18:16 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 22:18:16 -0600 Subject: Paging Richard In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 27 May 2010 23:19:45 -0400. <201005272319.45846.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Patrick, just so we're on the same page, are we talking about the machine that Steve Gardner has on the east coast, or another one that you have in Purdue? I've been in contact with two people, so I'm a little confused. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave at mitton.com Tue Jun 15 00:20:27 2010 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 01:20:27 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100615052030.58251E72652@smtprelay02.hostedemail.com> On 6/8/2010 09:54 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Message: 17 >Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 16:45:00 -0400 >From: Brad Parker >Subject: Re: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >On Jun 6, 2010, at 7:02 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > > > (a) Without being very accurate, and based on your experience > with the PDP-8, how > > long do you think that it would take you to implement a > PDP-11? Just a rough estimate > > in months or years! > >um. I already did that. It took a few years, but I only worked on >it sporadically. It currently >boots (in simulation) RT-11, RSTS V4, BSD 2.9 and V6. I have not >debugged the split I & D >but it's there. > >If you send me a RK05 image with TSX on it I'll try and boot it in sim. > >The last FPGA version I did had no MMU but it did boot RT-11. It had >some disk problems which >I have since corrected. I believe I could synthesize and run the >"no mmu" version pretty quickly. >The mmu version need still needs some work do make 50mhz timing. > > > (b) About how fast might the FPGA solution be compared to > something like a PDP-11/93? > > Again, just a rough estimate like 10 or 20 times as fast. > >Well, as I said, the no-mmu version runs at 50MHz. I could improve >that. The mmu version probably >won't run faster, mostly due to the 20ns rams on my fpga board. > > > Any idea why you did an FPGA implementation of the PDP-8? > > >back in the day I spent a lot of time on TSS/8. I wanted to run it >again :-) And, I want >to work on cpu's when I grow up. > >I also spent a lot of time on RSTS and TSX, hence the pdp-11. > >I know the s/w sims are better, but I like hardware and love running >h/w simulations. > >-brad > >Brad Parker >Heeltoe Consulting >781-483-3101 >http://www.heeltoe.com Now what would be really cool would be to make 4 CPUs and re-create an 11/74 quad. http://www.miim.com/faq/hardware/multipro.html#castor Dave. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 00:35:29 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:35:29 +1000 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: <4C1671F1.3020607@softjar.se> References: <4C1671F1.3020607@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 4:16 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > The RQZX1 can be configured as disk-tape or disk-disk. In the disk-disk > case, one of the disks will use SCSI units 0-3, while the other will use > units 4-6. That would totally explain why your SCSI id 4 maps to MSCP lun 0. > You're on the "second" disk controller. And that also explains why you > cannot use any tapes. Ok, that helps me understand the unusual addressing behavior I was seeing. When I added the tape drive, the autoconfigure option on the RQZX1 did not find the hard disk that was also attached. > Just SCSI as far as I know. The only other connection is for a floppy, > unless I remember wrong. More searching and I came across these notes from Terry Kennedy (buried deeply on DECUS, now Encompass) writing on 4-JUN-1993: The 50-pin connector is the SCSI bus, the 60-pin connector is for a logic analyzer for design testing, and the 34-pin connector is for the floppy. The jumper by the 50-pin connector (JU1) is the termination power enable jumper. The jumper by the 60-pin connector (JU2) is a reset signal to the on-board 80186 (jumpering this is a bad idea 8-). The two switch packs define the 2 logical halves of the controller. There are two halves, each of which can be set to MSCP or TMSCP. 1 2 3 4 5 OFF OFF OFF OFF OFF MSCP at 17772150 (normal) OFF OFF OFF OFF ON MSCP at 17760334 (1st alternate) ON OFF OFF OFF OFF TMSCP at 17774500 (normal) ON OFF OFF OFF ON TMSCP at 17760404 (1st alternate) If you need another setting, tell me what it is and I'll post it. Note that if you change these, you'll need to go into the on-board menu (get there by booting DU253 or MU253) and do an auto-configure to redefine the new units. ...and in a followup message Terry Kennedy wrote: The RQZX1 is the replacement for the RQDXn series controllers. It attaches SCSI disks and/or tapes to Q-bus PDP-11 systems. I supposed the big differences between it and the non-DEC competition is: 1) Supports the RX33 floppy via normal floppy interface for backward compat- ibility with the RQDX3. 2) Provides both disk and tape in the base product - no extra cost. 3) Provided and supported by DEC. It does not "officially support" bigger disks than the RZ2-something, nor any tape except the TZ30. Other things do work, however. It's somewhere in between the KZQSA (I believe that's the model) which only supports tapes and is kind of lame, and the non-DEC competition. I don't believe it's supported under VMS. I'm not sure if it works under VMS. It also doesn't "support" ex- ternal devices, although there is an external connector and terminator on the BA23 back panel. It has a few programming "quirks", which is why the various PDP-11 oper- ating systems had to have new releases to support it. [I did the driver sup- port for 2.11BSD Unix] It's not a bad board. If I were buying a board in this market space to- day, I'd probably look at the CMD products, just because they don't limit "support" to a subset of the disk drives, or to only the PDP-11 architecture. end of quote Posting here since information about the RQZX1 M5977-AA is difficult to find. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 15 01:23:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 02:23:53 -0400 Subject: OS/8 editors, was Re: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details In-Reply-To: <4C13A2E7.6010002@softjar.se> References: <4C13A2E7.6010002@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C171C79.4040203@neurotica.com> On 6/12/10 11:08 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > I totally forgot that I wrote a Emacs-clone for TECO8, which is what I > normally use. That one I have probably not posted anywhere anytime. But > we also have VISTA, which was available from DECUS, and which I have. I > think I made it available, and maybe others have too. > > So for people in general, you have atleast two options, and I should > post my EMACS.TE sometime too... I'm very much interested in both of those. Can I talk you into making them available? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 15 02:39:32 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 08:39:32 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> On 15/06/10 02:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Phil, this thing seems to pay attention to the duration of the read > pulse, instead of the edge. Do I read this right? No -- the hardware only stores "time since last edge". So the edges are always one "virtual nanosecond" wide. The code extends these to two PLL clock cycles for the DPLL counter reset, and also stores whether there was a data pulse (transition) in the current data window. You could feed the DiscFerret a 5ms long pulse if you liked, the counter would just keep going and the next time the counter was latched into RAM you'd get a reading of 5ms + time_inactive. That is, the time from transition edge to transition edge. Let's say you have this input: a b ------+ +----------+ +-------- | | | | | | | | +---+ +-----+ The data in buf[] is just the time from a to b -- the duty cycle can vary as much as you like, and because T(a-b) is still the same, you'll get the same timing value. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jun 15 04:27:32 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:27:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: RK05 data problems with misaligned drive? In-Reply-To: <4C16A6CD.6010801@hachti.de> References: <4C16A6CD.6010801@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> I think that's unlikely. There is a tunnel erase head which essentially >> wipes out any old data that might be picked up by the read head. > You mean that the erased trace is guaranteed to be broader than the area that > can be sensed by the read head? Well, erasing takes place *after* writing. The R/W head writes the data and the erase head then erases the borders of the just written data. > >> Do you know if the heads are good? I've had at least one RK05 head that >> tested OK electrically, looked clean, but which procuded no signal > Oh, I cleaned them. And they look white. And I actually CAN read and write > with both heads. But there are errors from time to time. And the error > frequency seemed to drop with every time I format the pack... Perhaps it's > something at the write side... No idea. > > I'll grab some heads and throw them at the drive. Then I'll try again. > Currently I have to find a new blower for the unit 0 RK05 of my test system. > It shorted and burned yesterday while playing with the rotten drive. The error just sounds like the one I had in my RK05 drive. I could read all my packs without any errors, but writing the lower side was very unreliable. Tests showed that I could write (and read back, of course) data from track 0 up to 127. Starting at track 128 I just had lots of read errors. The maintenance manual revealed that the write current is reduced starting with track 128, so that gave me a clue. Swapping the cables from the upper and lower head moved the errors from the lower to the upper side (logically, i.e. from the software point of view), so the fault was not in the R/W amplifiers. It could only be a defective R/W head. I then changed only the lower head, and the drive is working fine since then. I suspect that the head had shorted windings or something like that. It otherwise looked fine. It is possible that it had crashed sometimes in the past before I got the machine. Christian From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 15 09:46:50 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 07:46:50 -0700 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4C1671F1.3020607@softjar.se> Message-ID: At 3:35 PM +1000 6/15/10, Nigel Williams wrote: >...and in a followup message Terry Kennedy wrote: > > It does not "officially support" bigger disks than the RZ2-something, nor >any tape except the TZ30. Other things do work, however. It's somewhere in > It's not a bad board. If I were buying a board in this market space to- >day, I'd probably look at the CMD products, just because they don't limit >"support" to a subset of the disk drives, or to only the PDP-11 architecture. > >end of quote I think these two bits of info are the key ones... Also, from the RSTS/E 10.1 SPD: SCSI Support: o There is no SCSI device handler. The SCSI disk devices are treated as MSCP disks using DUDVR. o RQZX1 SCSI adapter-Provides two ports that can be configured (via a hardware switch on the RQZX1 board itself) as the following: - 2 disk ports Each port has it's own CSR and is considered to be a separate controller. Each disk port can support up to 4 disks (i.e. RX33, RZ23L, RZ24L). Since the RQZX1 supports RX33 floppy disks, these disks must be counted in this maximum number of four. For example, one RX33 floppy attached to the RQZX1 disk port will allow up to three additional SCSI disks to be attached to that port. The maximum number of RQZX1 adapters supported per system is one. RSTS/E does not support any SCSI devices attached outside of the sys- tem box. Note: HARDWARE RESTRICTION: Support for the RQZX1 adapter is limited to microcode version 2.1 or later. Terry's comments seem to indicate you need DEC HD's. You're definitely good up to a RZ24 based on the SPD, though it would be good to know how high you can go. I've used the equivalent of an RZ28 (a 2GB Seagate Barracuda on my Viking QDT board). What is interesting is that the SPD doesn't mention supporting the TZ30, yet Terry mentions the board supports it, and he ran RSTS/E. All this seems to support my suspicion that you need DEC branded hard drives. The more interesting question is, can you use DEC branded tape drives. I sent a dealer I know that specializes in PDP-11's a few questions, I'll let you know if find out anything. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Jun 15 10:03:12 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:03:12 -0400 Subject: pinout for Vector Graphic's ZCB cable Message-ID: <68c84760$7a826b1d$292f68c2$@com> I have a Vector Graphic's ZCB cable that is wired for a 9600b 8/n/1 serial terminal. It was working yesterday, but the connections were brittle and a few of the wires have come loose from the 25-pin connector. I can see the spots where the solder was applied but I am not confident that I have the correct repair points. Does anyone have the pinouts for this cable so I can re-solder/replace? A picture says a 1K words. I am not sure I have an original cable. I will keep looking and if I find the answer I will post it here. Thanks Bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 15 10:10:38 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 08:10:38 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2010 at 8:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: > No -- the hardware only stores "time since last edge". So the edges > are always one "virtual nanosecond" wide. The code extends these to > two PLL clock cycles for the DPLL counter reset, and also stores > whether there was a data pulse (transition) in the current data > window. Okay, it was the commentary that was throwing me off. This looks something like the code that I use. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 15 10:37:07 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 16:37:07 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> On 15/06/10 16:10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Jun 2010 at 8:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> No -- the hardware only stores "time since last edge". So the edges >> are always one "virtual nanosecond" wide. The code extends these to >> two PLL clock cycles for the DPLL counter reset, and also stores >> whether there was a data pulse (transition) in the current data >> window. > > Okay, it was the commentary that was throwing me off. This looks > something like the code that I use. I've done a bit of improvement on the commenting (see below) -- this should clarify it a bit. Also, I got GCD mixed up with LCM -- you want the greatest common divisor to set TIMER_INCREMENT, not the lowest common multiple. Ideally you want NSECS_PER_* to be as low as possible, and TIMER_INCREMENT as close to 1 as possible. Pick a pair of NSECS_PER_... values which have a common factor, then divide both by that factor and leave TIMER_INCREMENT set to 1. If you want speed over all else, you can increase TIMER_INCREMENT further, which will speed up the loop at a cost of killing accuracy. You might be able to turn the clock-error accumulators into floating point values, but IME you usually need double-precision for that, and floating point math tends to be slower than integer math (even on modern CPUs with fast FPUs). At the end of the day, it's a starting point... > /** > * This is a software implementation of Jim Thompson's Phase-Jerked Loop > * design, available from AnalogInnovations.com as the PDF file > * "FloppyDataExtractor.pdf". > * > * This consists of: > * A data synchroniser which forces RD_DATA to be active for 2 clock cycles. > * A counter which increments constantly while the PLL is running, and is > * reset to zero when a data bit is detected. > * A flip-flop which changes state when the counter reaches half its maximum > * value > * > * The actual values of NSECS_PER_ACQ and NSECS_PER_PLLCK don't really matter. > * What actually matters is the ratio between the two -- if you have a 40MHz > * acquisition clock and a PLL clock of 16MHz (data rate 500kbps), then the > * starting values will be NSECS_PER_ACQ=25 and NSECS_PER_PLLCK=62.5. Problem > * is, 62.5 isn't an integer multiple, so we might have issues with > * short-term clock jitter. So we multiply by two, which gives us > * NSECS_PER_ACQ=50 and NSECS_PER_PLLCK=125, and a timestep of 0.5ns. Much > * better. > * > * We can also change the PJL Counter maximum value if it makes the math > * work out better. Be careful though -- reducing the value WILL reduce the > * number of available phase-shift steps and thus the PLL accuracy. > * > * Now we know the ticks-per-acqclk and ticks-per-pllclk values, we can > * figure out the optimal timer increment -- > * TIMER_INCREMENT = gcd(NSECS_PER_ACQ, NSECS_PER_PLLCK) > * (gcd == greatest common divisor) > * > * Ideally we want a TIMER_INCREMENT greater than 1. If we get an increment > * of 1, then the loop has to run at 1x speed and will be SLOW. Try > * increasing NSECS_PER_ACQ and NSECS_PER_PLLCK (multiply them by the same > * number e.g. 2, 4, 8, ...), then run the gcd again. Problem is, this isn't > * going to gain much if anything in speed because you're going to be running > * more loops at a faster rate, thus it's a zero-gain :-/ > */ -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Jun 15 10:45:52 2010 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:45:52 +0200 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> Message-ID: <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> No help in sight ?? ... Ciao Bernd Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi, > a short time ago, i got hold of a C 900 (bare machine only, no > keyboard/monitor), that i want to get working again ... > I have already searched the Web for specs of keyboard and monitor but > without success. > The machine has an AT-type keyboard plug, but it's not clear (at least > for me), if a normal IBM compatible keyboard > will work. As i have the workstation version, the display resolution > should be 1024*800 which seems to be a bit > uncommon, so i'm not sure, which monitor could work ... > > Can anyone provide some documentation, that would help to find a > working keyboard/monitor ? > Getting the software for the machine would be very helpful too ! ... > > Thanks a lot > Bernd From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 15 12:36:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 10:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: RK05 data problems with misaligned drive? In-Reply-To: References: <4C16A6CD.6010801@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20100615102629.L63675@shell.lmi.net> > > I think that's unlikely. There is a tunnel erase head which essentially > > wipes out any old data that might be picked up by the read head. > You mean that the erased trace is guaranteed to be broader than the area that > can be sensed by the read head? Almost. Unless you switch drives. The erased trace is "guaranteed" (designed) to be broader than the area that was written by the write head. Remember that the ORIGINAL 48tpi 5.25" floppies had "data" about 1/3 mm wide in the middle of a space about 1/2 mm wide. But, 96tpi had "data" about 1/6 mm wide in the middle of a space about 1/4 mm wide. I think that later 48tpi drives may have mucked about with (narrowed) their track width to try to reduce the problems created by 96tpi drives tunnel erasing only 1/4 mm of a 1/3 mm track. (If the 48tpi were made with 1/6 mm wide "data" in their 1/2 mm wide space, then the interchage problems would be reduced) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 15 12:35:33 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:35:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C168AE7.8060806@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Jun 14, 10 02:02:47 pm Message-ID: > > True, but unfortunately, I can't possibly home all the homeless and > > unwanted cats and kittens myself :-( > > Take them to work. :) That would imply I had a job... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 15 12:45:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:45:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: RK05 data problems with misaligned drive? In-Reply-To: <4C16A6CD.6010801@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jun 15, 10 00:01:49 am Message-ID: > > Salut Tony, > > > I think that's unlikely. There is a tunnel erase head which essentially > > wipes out any old data that might be picked up by the read head. > You mean that the erased trace is guaranteed to be broader than the area that can be sensed by the > read head? Yes, I beleive so. > I'll grab some heads and throw them at the drive. Then I'll try again. > Currently I have to find a > new blower for the unit 0 RK05 of my test system. It shorted and > burned yesterday while playing with > the rotten drive. They don;t normally short, what happens is the insulation on the windings breaks down, and you get an unwanted earth. And then te magic smoke (and flames) come out. I will have to check the scheamtics, but since this is a 115V motor run off the primary of the PSU transformer, is it wired so that it has to stand 230V between one end of the windings and chassis ground? If so, it might explain why they seem tofail all too often over there. I am sure you know the blower comes apart. After removing it (4 Allen screws hidden by the foam seal), you can remove the ring under that seal (a few self-tapping screws), then the fan blades (Use a long hex key between the blades to undo the setscrew), and then seprate the motor from the fan housing (2 nuts). The motor itself comes apart by flicking off the clims and removing the end plate and rotor. But it is almost imposible to rewind it. I mention this because when one ofmine failed, a friend gave me a faulty blower with good winidings and bad bearings. And of course I made one good one from the 2. If you can find a suitable motro, you could probably fit it to the housing and fit the fan blades. A motoe may be easier to find than an RK05 blower. Of course all the screws are UNC sizes, you need imperial (inch-size) Allen keys and nutdrivers. But if you work on DEC stuff, you must have thsoe anyway. > > >> > >> On the other hand that would mean that I'd have to degauss the pack before I ever could use it > >> reliable again. > > Since there's no servo infromation or anything like that on an RK05 pack, > > there is no reason why you can't degauss it. > Of course, I *can* degauss the pack. The question is if I *must* degauss a pack before using it with > new track positions. I think it;'s worth tryiong if you have a sutiable AC electromagnet. > > > Do yuo have any more packs? > Of course. > > > > If you get CRC errors at first which go > > away if you format it a few times, it would apperar to be your suggestion > > of old data causing problems. > If I had a degausser I'd immediately try it out. What do you use to rease audio recording tapes? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 15 13:04:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 19:04:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Moreo n the HP82909 RAM module Message-ID: I've spent a bit more time looking at the HP82909 128K RAM module for the HP86/HP87 machines which I mentioned a few days ago. I think I know what the missing chips are -- a pair of '30s, a '27 and a '74. Thers's also a resistor (around 4k7?) and a transistor (TUN :-)), not fitted as well. And a mode control link or switch which enables this extra circuitry (and changes a couple of other logic signals that I've not fully investigated yet) if these parts were present, then it appears a write to location 0xFFC7 would enable or disable the internal system ROMs of the HP85/87 (bit 0 of the data written determines whether the ROMs are enabled or disabled. I don't know enough about the custom RAM controller IC in the module to know if it can be programemd to map the RAM in place of the system ROMs, or if a differnt controller IC is needed too. I am wondering what this was designed for? Developing new versions of the ROMs? Has anyone come across anHP product which could make use of this capability? -tony From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 13:39:47 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:39:47 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: <4C168AE7.8060806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 13:35, Tony Duell wrote: >> > True, but unfortunately, I can't possibly home all the homeless and >> > unwanted cats and kittens myself :-( >> >> Take them to work. :) > > That would imply I had a job... > > -tony Take a job with the local shelter/humane society! Kill two b... er, solve two problems at once! (might not solve the "getting paid" problem though...) -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 15 13:47:27 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:47:27 -0600 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: <4C168AE7.8060806@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C17CABF.9060804@jetnet.ab.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > > Take a job with the local shelter/humane society! Kill two b... er, > solve two problems at once! > > (might not solve the "getting paid" problem though...) > Unless you like the house brand of Cat Food... This week liver and tuna. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 15 14:10:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 20:10:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Jun 15, 10 02:39:47 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 13:35, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > True, but unfortunately, I can't possibly home all the homeless and > >> > unwanted cats and kittens myself :-( > >> > >> Take them to work. :) > > > > That would imply I had a job... > Take a job with the local shelter/humane society! Kill two b... er, > solve two problems at once! But then I wouldn't have to _take_ the cats to work, they'd already be there... > > (might not solve the "getting paid" problem though...) Indeed. And for some odd reeaon, companies like Farnell, and E-bay sellers seem to want money in exchange for their toys. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 15 14:30:37 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> Message-ID: I assume most of us have never seen a C900. I need to google it, as I'm curious as to what it actually is. Zane On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > No help in sight ?? ... > > Ciao Bernd > > Bernd Kopriva wrote: >> Hi, >> a short time ago, i got hold of a C 900 (bare machine only, no >> keyboard/monitor), that i want to get working again ... >> I have already searched the Web for specs of keyboard and monitor but >> without success. >> The machine has an AT-type keyboard plug, but it's not clear (at least for >> me), if a normal IBM compatible keyboard >> will work. As i have the workstation version, the display resolution should >> be 1024*800 which seems to be a bit >> uncommon, so i'm not sure, which monitor could work ... >> >> Can anyone provide some documentation, that would help to find a working >> keyboard/monitor ? >> Getting the software for the machine would be very helpful too ! ... >> >> Thanks a lot >> Bernd From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 14:43:32 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:43:32 -0500 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I assume most of us have never seen a C900. ?I need to google it, as I'm > curious as to what it actually is. I had to google it also. I found a page. It's a Z8000 based computer that commodore was working on. They ditched it when they bought amiga and sent all the prototype machines to a scrap company. So that would make them very rare. It also ran Coherent which was a pre-linux attempt to recreate a non-unix unix. I used to run it on my 486 laptop. It worked great. Good luck finding that software now. Although I'm sure a crazy collector out there has it. As for the keyboard, if a PC keyboard doesn't work, you might want to try one from an amiga 2000. They had the same connector, but were not PC compatible. For the video, I'd just plug in any old VGA multi-sync monitor. 1024x800 just sounds like 1024x768 with some overscan. As a side note, I'd love to have that case for a hacking project. But such a thing would be unforgivable if the motherboard weren't a total loss. brian From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 15 14:48:02 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: from Brian Lanning at "Jun 15, 10 02:43:32 pm" Message-ID: <201006151948.o5FJm3TM017458@floodgap.com> > It also ran Coherent which was a pre-linux attempt to recreate a > non-unix unix. I used to run it on my 486 laptop. It worked great. > Good luck finding that software now. Although I'm sure a crazy > collector out there has it. A long time ago someone sent me some C900 disks, allegedly. I probably should find them and image them (I didn't have the set up for that back then and they're probably in the mess I call my stock closet). I don't have a C900 myself, though, so I can't even guarantee that's what they're for or that they work. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The son becomes the father, the father becomes the son, the uncle has a beer. From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 14:55:46 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:55:46 -0500 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi, > a short time ago, i got hold of a C 900 (bare machine only, no > keyboard/monitor), that i want to get working again ... Can you post pictures somewhere? Especially the inside. :-) brian From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 15 14:59:45 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:59:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 901X-002 Maintenance Device In-Reply-To: <201006082018.o58KIBCI013833@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201006082018.o58KIBCI013833@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: Does anyone have any diagnostic disks for the IBM 901X-002 Maintenance Device? If you don't have the capability for imaging an 8" disk, I can do it and send it back to you. Thanks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 15:04:09 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:04:09 -0500 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> (might not solve the "getting paid" problem though...) > > Indeed. And for some odd reeaon, companies like Farnell, and E-bay > sellers seem to want money in exchange for their toys. Well, you might find that a rescue shelter cat costs a small fortune, by the way - the shelters here at least give any animals that are taken in all their shots (and spay/neuter them), and then the bill for those gets passed on to whoever adopts them. If anyone adopts them. It must be a bit off-putting for prospective adopters, but at the same time I can see that it makes sense for all their shots to be up to date and that they can't contribute to the problem of yet more abandoned critters out there. cheers J. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 15 15:08:50 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 16:08:50 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> References: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C17DDD2.4010907@neurotica.com> On 6/15/10 4:04 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> (might not solve the "getting paid" problem though...) >> >> Indeed. And for some odd reeaon, companies like Farnell, and E-bay >> sellers seem to want money in exchange for their toys. > > Well, you might find that a rescue shelter cat costs a small fortune, by > the way - the shelters here at least give any animals that are taken in > all their shots (and spay/neuter them), and then the bill for those gets > passed on to whoever adopts them. If anyone adopts them. > > It must be a bit off-putting for prospective adopters, but at the same > time I can see that it makes sense for all their shots to be up to date > and that they can't contribute to the problem of yet more abandoned > critters out there. I have never, ever seen or heard of that happening at or in connection with animal shelters of any kind, and I've had nothing but shelter-adopted pets all my life. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 15:13:08 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:13:08 -0500 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C17DDD2.4010907@neurotica.com> References: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> <4C17DDD2.4010907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?I have never, ever seen or heard of that happening at or in connection > with animal shelters of any kind, and I've had nothing but > shelter-adopted pets all my life. I have. I'm in the chicago area. Although I seem to remember that being how it was done when lived in california. > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL I used to live in florida. (My CS degree is from UCF) In florida, if you want a new cat, all you have to do is put a bowl of cat food out. In the morning, you'll have 5 cats, 2 possums, and a raccoon to choose from. :-) brian From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 15 15:27:22 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:27:22 -0500 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> Message-ID: <201006152027.o5FKRlxW085923@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 02:43 PM 6/15/2010, Brian Lanning wrote: >On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I assume most of us have never seen a C900. I need to google it, as I'm >> curious as to what it actually is. I remember seeing one at CES in '85 or so. I saw one or two since then, back in Amiga days. Secret Weapons says 500 units were produced. I would guess that CBM would've sold as many as they could, which isn't quite the same as saying they were all scrapped. I think I have an AMIX tape and tape drive in the basement somewhere, for the A2500. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 15 16:07:29 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:07:29 -0600 Subject: - ot pets In-Reply-To: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> References: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C17EB91.1010304@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > It must be a bit off-putting for prospective adopters, but at the same > time I can see that it makes sense for all their shots to be up to date > and that they can't contribute to the problem of yet more abandoned > critters out there. And a responsable pet owner, will have that done regardless of now or already pre-done. > > cheers > > J. Out here, Cats are no problem ... they just move right in from some where. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 15 16:14:10 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:14:10 -0600 Subject: ot pets In-Reply-To: References: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> <4C17DDD2.4010907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C17ED22.2050406@jetnet.ab.ca> Brian Lanning wrote: > > I used to live in florida. (My CS degree is from UCF) In florida, > if you want a new cat, all you have to do is put a bowl of cat food > out. In the morning, you'll have 5 cats, 2 possums, and a raccoon to > choose from. :-) Do possums make good pets? I know skunks and raccons do. > brian > From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 16:18:53 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 16:18:53 -0500 Subject: ot pets In-Reply-To: <4C17ED22.2050406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> <4C17DDD2.4010907@neurotica.com> <4C17ED22.2050406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Ben wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > Do possums make good pets? I know skunks and raccons do. I don't think so. I think you can eat them though. brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 15 16:36:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:36:44 -0400 Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: References: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> <4C17DDD2.4010907@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C17F26C.7020105@neurotica.com> On 6/15/10 4:13 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> I have never, ever seen or heard of that happening at or in connection >> with animal shelters of any kind, and I've had nothing but >> shelter-adopted pets all my life. > > I have. I'm in the chicago area. Although I seem to remember that > being how it was done when lived in california. Perhaps it's a regional thing. But either way, it's stuff that needs to be done anyway, so either you pay them or you pay someone else. That's a part of caring for the care of a pet. >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL > > I used to live in florida. (My CS degree is from UCF) In florida, > if you want a new cat, all you have to do is put a bowl of cat food > out. In the morning, you'll have 5 cats, 2 possums, and a raccoon to > choose from. :-) Indeed. I went (unwillingly) from two cats to four this way in the past two years. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 17:12:55 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:12:55 -0500 Subject: - ot pets In-Reply-To: <4C17EB91.1010304@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> <4C17EB91.1010304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C17FAE7.3050208@gmail.com> Ben wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> It must be a bit off-putting for prospective adopters, but at the same >> time I can see that it makes sense for all their shots to be up to date >> and that they can't contribute to the problem of yet more abandoned >> critters out there. > > And a responsable pet owner, will have that done regardless > of now or already pre-done. Yes, I agree... I just think that a lot of folk expect to rescue a free pet from a shelter and possibly get put off because of the cost even though, like you say, any responsible owner will have those costs anyway. > Out here, Cats are no problem ... they just move right in from > some where. One of ours was a rescue from a wood pile out back - she's tiny, but has the loudest meow of any cat I've heard :-) She'll come in first thing in the morning and meow until either one of us or one of the other pets pays her some attention. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 15 17:14:41 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 15:14:41 -0700 Subject: ot pets In-Reply-To: <4C17ED22.2050406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , , <4C17ED22.2050406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4C1798E1.25498.191D3BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2010 at 15:14, Ben wrote: > Do possums make good pets? I know skunks and raccons do. Maybe a skunk, but raccoons rarely make *good* pets, even where they're legal: http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/raccoons/a/raccoons.htm They look cute as heck in wild (we've got scads of them here and it's fun watching them, particularly when they have young), but they can be very vicious, have very sharp claws and teeth and can kill a large dog if cornered. My screwball calico female cat, "Tehter", used to take swipes at them if they wandered too close. One got ticked off and took a small hunk out of her paw. She was lucky to have survived more or less intact. She also learned that it wasn't a good idea to stalk wild turkeys or geese. After a couple of embarrassing run-ins with them, she confined herself to mice and shrews. Distemper and rabies make periodic inroads in the raccoon population here. We used to have a lot of opossums, but I haven't seen one in years--I think disease largely eradicated the local population. There are those who abandon unwanted cats in the country. Few realize that they're ill-equipped to survive long among other predators. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 15 17:49:01 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 23:49:01 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> Oh. Hell. Yeah! With "histogram-assisted windowing": Tracks read: 160/160 Decoded: 160/160 CRC errors: 18/160 With the PJL: CRC errors: 0/160 I'm willing to call that a success :) Now to optimise the stupid thing... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 15 18:13:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 16:13:10 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk>, <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C17A696.26218.1C75D5D@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2010 at 23:49, Philip Pemberton wrote: Congratulations! I've got a somewhat thornier problem here--a disk that had some tracks written by a drive with what I can only surmise is a slipping belt. Not even the traditional WD9216 can make sense out of it. I'm going to try some tweaking of my own to see if I can read the data with some agressive software. My algorithm adjusts all three MFM peak positions (t, 1.5t and 2t) more or less independently. My hope is that it may compensate for some "bit crowding" effects. Of course, there's always the possibility that it'll have the opposite effect. I'll let you know how it all turns out. If you want to try a run at the data with your own algorithm, I can forward an image file recorded with the 28.3 MHz (ISTR) Catweasel clock. The format is nonstandard (i.e. different IDAM conventions, but is otherwise fairly straightforward). --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 15 18:56:47 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 16:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ot pets In-Reply-To: <4C17ED22.2050406@jetnet.ab.ca> from Ben at "Jun 15, 10 03:14:10 pm" Message-ID: <201006152356.o5FNul6R020402@floodgap.com> > Do possums make good pets? If you get them very young. We raised a litter of possums nearly from birth and they were surprisingly fun creatures. A couple did wild up, though, but one of them is still at one of the local wildlife sanctuaries where he is old, fat, sassy, and loves being fed and patted. Possums' reputation for ferocity is actually largely undeserved. We've dealt with many wild possums and they are pretty much inoffensive, even though they put up a huge show and bare lots of teeth which they never use. Admittedly I come from a veterinary family, so we're used to wild animals. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's lonely at the top, but the food is better. ---------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 15 19:14:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 17:14:12 -0700 Subject: ot pets In-Reply-To: <201006152356.o5FNul6R020402@floodgap.com> References: <4C17ED22.2050406@jetnet.ab.ca> from Ben at "Jun 15, 10 03:14:10 pm", <201006152356.o5FNul6R020402@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C17B4E4.19021.1FF3D61@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2010 at 16:56, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Possums' reputation for ferocity is actually largely undeserved. We've > dealt with many wild possums and they are pretty much inoffensive, > even though they put up a huge show and bare lots of teeth which they > never use. Admittedly I come from a veterinary family, so we're used > to wild animals. Until the local population imploded here a few years ago, we mostly knew possums as springtime roadkill. We also used to see a fair number of porcupines, but no more. About the same time, the raccoon population dropped, but has since recovered. --Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 15 20:23:25 2010 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 21:23:25 -0400 Subject: ot pets In-Reply-To: <4C17B4E4.19021.1FF3D61@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <346887.34212.qm@smtp103.sbc.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Why did the chicken cross the road? To prove to the possum it could be done. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jun 15 16:07:17 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 14:07:17 -0700 Subject: Apple 2e Message-ID: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> Does anyone have some Prodos and or other software for one of these? My supply is locked up, and I don't know if I ever had Prodos. The system I'm getting had its prodos floppy stepped on by a misque long ago, and it was overwritten, so at a minimum I would appreciate that. I could send the damaged disk and let you overwrite at my expense as an alternative if media is a problem, or I can dig for some blanks in my pile. thanks Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jun 15 17:07:17 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 18:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple 2e In-Reply-To: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> References: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Jim Stephens wrote: > Does anyone have some Prodos and or other software for one of these? My > supply is locked up, and I don't know if I ever had Prodos. If you have a serial card for the machine you can bootstrap from bare metal using ADP (on SourceForge). -- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 18:20:56 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 16:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <629955.39536.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> can you send me pictures? many of the machines in that category were mostly *not* compatible. That's what makes them interesting. At least I think so... --- On Sun, 6/13/10, Richard wrote: I have an > F1, but haven't > managed to obtain an Xi at a reasonable price. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 18:29:16 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 16:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: <4C14EDDB.7799.131A099@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <409571.23931.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 6/13/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis a fair number of games that resorted to twiddling > the > floppy controller to implement their own copy > protection. "Don't > floppy that copy!" then those snippets of code would have been relatively easy to trap. Implementing cp via bios calls seems as lamo to me as can be. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 15 18:33:51 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 16:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <490528.45940.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 6/13/10, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > If that's the case, then the Apricot was even lamer than I > realized > for not obtaining even that level of compatibility.. Relatively few pseudo compatibles offered both Bios and dos compatiblity. Come to think of it the only one that comes to mind is the Tandy 2000. Probably the Mindset also. Ironic since there's so much banter on the net stating an 80186 based PC was inherently incompatible in many ways. Both used the chip, although the M* was way more compatible then the T2K (which ran precious little pc s/w). From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 00:40:14 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 01:40:14 -0400 Subject: quick test: floppy motor speed variation Message-ID: <4C1863BE.6010003@verizon.net> Since I've been failing miserably coming up with a working verilog PLL, I decided to do something easier tonight. I captured about 1,000 index pulses from a Sony MPF920-E(if I read date code right, it's from April 1997) with a 20+ year old floppy disk with a logic analyzer. I exported the data, and then massaged the data into some results with Excel. My average pulse was 200.487ms apart. All pulses were within 55us of each other, range was 200.464ms -> 200.519. Standard deviation was 9.46us. This sounds way way better than the NatSemi AN-505 note of 1-2%. Is anyone else surprised by this result? I was expecting differences measured in milliseconds not micros. Thanks Keith From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 03:26:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 04:26:44 -0400 Subject: Apple 2e In-Reply-To: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> References: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C188AC4.8040309@gmail.com> Jim Stephens wrote: > Does anyone have some Prodos and or other software for one of these? My > supply is locked up, and I don't know if I ever had Prodos. > > The system I'm getting had its prodos floppy stepped on by a misque long > ago, and it was overwritten, so at a minimum I would appreciate that. > > I could send the damaged disk and let you overwrite at my expense as an > alternative if media is a problem, or I can dig for some blanks in my pile. Just use ADTpro to copy Prodos over a serial link onto the Apple. Peace... Sridhar From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Jun 16 07:35:50 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:35:50 -0400 Subject: pinout for Vector Graphic's ZCB cable Message-ID: <541cd123$32062f73$b04ddae$@com> > > I have a Vector Graphic's ZCB cable that is wired for a 9600b 8/n/1 serial > terminal. It was working yesterday, but the connections were brittle and a > few of the wires have come loose from the 25-pin connector. I can see the > spots where the solder was applied but I am not confident that I have the > correct repair points. Does anyone have the pinouts for this cable so I > can re-solder/replace? I believe this is the answer to my question page 10 of http://vector-graphic.info/vg_zcb.aspx (download/part 2) Bill From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 16 08:43:28 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:43:28 -0500 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 05:49 PM 6/15/2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >Now to optimise the stupid thing... Premature optimization is the root of all evil. What, you need it to be fast? Or just correct? http://brnz.org/hbr/?p=437 - John From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jun 16 08:52:05 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:52:05 +0200 Subject: pdp10 rack free for pickup in northern Germany Message-ID: <4C18D705.4000205@hachti.de> Hi folks, there's a DEC rack from a pdp10 computer sitting in a basement around here (Kiel). It's the pdp10 pendant of the common H960 rack i.e. it has the same size but everything else is slightly different. Comes empty and in fair condition. No faceplate. But both grey side panels. There's one DC distribution panel at the lower left side. If anybody is interested, please contact me! If nobody likes to pick up the rack, it will go to scrap sometime next week. Kind regards, Philipp P.S.: Sorry, I currently have no pictures. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Jun 16 09:08:32 2010 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:08:32 -0500 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46AA8@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Sweet! -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 12:18 AM To: General at harpercollege.edu; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved I've just taken possession of a small IBM System/370 mainframe, and I thought I'd share the joy. This system has been sitting in North Carolina waiting for me for about six months; I've only now been able to arrange for transport due to financial restrictions. I've got 450 pictures and nearly a gigabyte of video to sort through, but here's a quick series of shots, including one or two with yours truly striking a pose: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/s370/ The system is a member of the 9370 family. It consists of a 9375 processor, five 9335-B01 disk drives (824MB/ea), two 9335-A01 controllers, and a 3430 tape drive. Everything was shrink-wrapped and sealed with IBM anti-tamper stickers. All the cabling is present; it's all coiled up in the back of the processor cabinet. I also received a mountain of documentation which I've not yet gone through. Everything is absolutely pristine save for some tape residue. I broke the seals and unwrapped the system personally, with camera rolling and heart pounding. Thanks to my friend George Adkins for the Herculean effort of loading it onto a truck in North Carolina and bringing it down here, and my friends James Sharp and Pat Sherrill for assisting with the unload. If I can get it running, I'd like to run VM/370 and/or MVS on it. It originally ran VSE/SP. On that note...does anyone have an appropriate console terminal for this system that might be available? I believe that'd be a 3215, or perhaps an early (C.U.T. protocol I think) 3270. I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Jun 16 09:12:46 2010 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:12:46 -0500 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <4C09352D.9050802@neurotica.com> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com><201006040822.58985.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <4C09352D.9050802@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46AA9@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Let me know if I can be of VSE or VM help..I used to be a systems programmer for a VM/SP / VSE/SP shop. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 12:18 PM To: General at harpercollege.edu; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM S/370 retrieved On 6/4/10 11:22 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) > > What a find! Pristine and complete! Congratulations!!! > > Best to you at getting it up and running - esp. VM/370 and MVS. However, the "current" VSE/SP is also an excellent OS... Thanks! Yes, I'm sure VSE is a great OS, many people speak highly of it. I just don't know anything about it. Is there a VSE distribution floating around that I could run under Hercules, or perhaps on a P/390? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 16 09:16:13 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 07:16:13 -0700 Subject: pdp10 rack free for pickup in northern Germany In-Reply-To: <4C18D705.4000205@hachti.de> References: <4C18D705.4000205@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4C18DCAD.4050102@bitsavers.org> On 6/16/10 6:52 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > No faceplate. But both grey side > panels. If you have the space, save the side panels. They can be harder to find than the racks. From bernd at kopriva.de Wed Jun 16 09:20:21 2010 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:20:21 +0200 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> Message-ID: <4C18DDA5.4090205@kopriva.de> Hi, the C 900 was planned as Commodores entrance to th 16 bit market. There should have been a server version and a workstation version (the one i own). The server version had some additional serial ports whereas the workstation included a hires graphics card. The system was equipped with a Zilog Z-8001 (which i the main reason for my interest), 512 kb Ram, a floppy disk and a harddisk. The operating system was Coherent Unix. Unfortunately, the development was killed in favour of the Amiga. According to some rumors, about 500 prototype machines were build and given to developers ... Ciao Bernd Zane H. Healy wrote: > I assume most of us have never seen a C900. I need to google it, as I'm > curious as to what it actually is. > > Zane > > > > > On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > >> No help in sight ?? ... >> >> Ciao Bernd >> >> Bernd Kopriva wrote: >>> Hi, >>> a short time ago, i got hold of a C 900 (bare machine only, no >>> keyboard/monitor), that i want to get working again ... >>> I have already searched the Web for specs of keyboard and monitor >>> but without success. >>> The machine has an AT-type keyboard plug, but it's not clear (at >>> least for me), if a normal IBM compatible keyboard >>> will work. As i have the workstation version, the display resolution >>> should be 1024*800 which seems to be a bit >>> uncommon, so i'm not sure, which monitor could work ... >>> >>> Can anyone provide some documentation, that would help to find a >>> working keyboard/monitor ? >>> Getting the software for the machine would be very helpful too ! ... >>> >>> Thanks a lot >>> Bernd From bernd at kopriva.de Wed Jun 16 09:22:56 2010 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:22:56 +0200 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> Message-ID: <4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de> Hi, i'm not familiar with all that Amiga and Commodore 8 bit stuff, but at least, it should be not too hard to get a Amiga keyboard :) ... ...as the C-900 predates the Amiga, i'm not sure, if the keyboard will fit Ciao Bernd Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> I assume most of us have never seen a C900. I need to google it, as I'm >> curious as to what it actually is. >> > > I had to google it also. I found a page. It's a Z8000 based computer > that commodore was working on. They ditched it when they bought amiga > and sent all the prototype machines to a scrap company. So that would > make them very rare. > > It also ran Coherent which was a pre-linux attempt to recreate a > non-unix unix. I used to run it on my 486 laptop. It worked great. > Good luck finding that software now. Although I'm sure a crazy > collector out there has it. > > As for the keyboard, if a PC keyboard doesn't work, you might want to > try one from an amiga 2000. They had the same connector, but were not > PC compatible. > > For the video, I'd just plug in any old VGA multi-sync monitor. > 1024x800 just sounds like 1024x768 with some overscan. > > As a side note, I'd love to have that case for a hacking project. But > such a thing would be unforgivable if the motherboard weren't a total > loss. > > brian > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 16 09:29:07 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:29:07 -0400 Subject: pdp10 rack free for pickup in northern Germany In-Reply-To: <4C18DCAD.4050102@bitsavers.org> References: <4C18D705.4000205@hachti.de> <4C18DCAD.4050102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C18DFB3.9050903@neurotica.com> On 6/16/10 10:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> No faceplate. But both grey side >> panels. > > If you have the space, save the side panels. They can be > harder to find than the racks. Agreed loudly. I've been looking for about four sets of H960 side panels for about twenty years. And I just got two more H960s two weeks ago that are missing the side panels! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bernd at kopriva.de Wed Jun 16 09:27:09 2010 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:27:09 +0200 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: <201006151948.o5FJm3TM017458@floodgap.com> References: <201006151948.o5FJm3TM017458@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C18DF3D.10708@kopriva.de> Hi, this would be very helpful ... .... i don't know, if there were different versions for the server and workstation versions, the only reference i saw, mentioned 3 disks, version 0.7.3 (??). Thanks Bernd Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> It also ran Coherent which was a pre-linux attempt to recreate a >> non-unix unix. I used to run it on my 486 laptop. It worked great. >> Good luck finding that software now. Although I'm sure a crazy >> collector out there has it. >> > > A long time ago someone sent me some C900 disks, allegedly. I probably > should find them and image them (I didn't have the set up for that back > then and they're probably in the mess I call my stock closet). I don't > have a C900 myself, though, so I can't even guarantee that's what they're > for or that they work. > > From bernd at kopriva.de Wed Jun 16 09:28:43 2010 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:28:43 +0200 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> Message-ID: <4C18DF9B.6030003@kopriva.de> Hi, will try to do so this weekend ... ... first i need to get hold of a digi-cam, not everything is digital here :) Ciao Bernd Brian Lanning wrote: > On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 9:37 AM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > >> Hi, >> a short time ago, i got hold of a C 900 (bare machine only, no >> keyboard/monitor), that i want to get working again ... >> > > Can you post pictures somewhere? Especially the inside. :-) > > brian > > > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 09:36:26 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:36:26 -0500 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: <4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de> References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> <4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi, > i'm not familiar with all that Amiga and Commodore 8 bit stuff, but at > least, > it should be not too hard to get a Amiga keyboard :) ... > ...as the C-900 predates the Amiga, i'm not sure, if the keyboard will fit It's certainly not at all clear whether an amiga keyboard will work. But it looks as though this machine and the amiga 2000 might have been designed at the same place in germany. The c900 case also looks very much like an amiga 2000 case. If the same engineers were used for the two projects, they could have easily taken the keyboard circuit from the c900 and used it in the 2000, maybe even reusing the keyboards on the 2000 that were originally intended for the c900. 2000 keyboards are as plentiful as the 2000. Getting a keyboard should be easy, although you may have to buy a 2000 to go with it. :-) Does anyone know if the commodore colt PCs use standard PC keyboards or something proprietary like the amiga keyboard? brian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 09:41:38 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:41:38 -0500 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C18E2A2.1000101@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: > At 05:49 PM 6/15/2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Now to optimise the stupid thing... > > Premature optimization is the root of all evil. > > What, you need it to be fast? Or just correct? Yeah, Phil, just throw more hardware at the problem! ;-) Good work anyway, optimised or not. cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 16 09:42:33 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 07:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: <4C18DF3D.10708@kopriva.de> from Bernd Kopriva at "Jun 16, 10 04:27:09 pm" Message-ID: <201006161442.o5GEgXM1020980@floodgap.com> > Hi, > this would be very helpful ... > .... i don't know, if there were different versions for the server and > workstation versions, the only reference > i saw, mentioned 3 disks, version 0.7.3 (??). Yes, 0.7.3 was the Coherent build for the 900. I'll dig around in my closet. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Do I look like I just fell off the turnip truck?! -- Ryoga, "Ranma 1/2" ---- From bernd at kopriva.de Wed Jun 16 09:46:16 2010 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:46:16 +0200 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> <4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de> Message-ID: <4C18E3B8.7030201@kopriva.de> As far as i know, the Amiga and the C-900 have different roots ... ... the Amiga was developed in the USA (Commodore bought the company "Amiga"), whereas the C-900 was developed mostly in Germany Ciao Bernd Brian Lanning wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > >> Hi, >> i'm not familiar with all that Amiga and Commodore 8 bit stuff, but at >> least, >> it should be not too hard to get a Amiga keyboard :) ... >> ...as the C-900 predates the Amiga, i'm not sure, if the keyboard will fit >> > > It's certainly not at all clear whether an amiga keyboard will work. > But it looks as though this machine and the amiga 2000 might have been > designed at the same place in germany. The c900 case also looks very > much like an amiga 2000 case. If the same engineers were used for the > two projects, they could have easily taken the keyboard circuit from > the c900 and used it in the 2000, maybe even reusing the keyboards on > the 2000 that were originally intended for the c900. > > 2000 keyboards are as plentiful as the 2000. Getting a keyboard > should be easy, although you may have to buy a 2000 to go with it. > :-) > > Does anyone know if the commodore colt PCs use standard PC keyboards > or something proprietary like the amiga keyboard? > > brian > > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 16 09:55:10 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 07:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: <4C18E3B8.7030201@kopriva.de> References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> <4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de> <4C18E3B8.7030201@kopriva.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2010, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > As far as i know, the Amiga and the C-900 have different roots ... > ... the Amiga was developed in the USA (Commodore bought the company > "Amiga"), whereas > the C-900 was developed mostly in Germany The Amiga 1000 was the first and designed in the US. The 2000 was designed by Commodore Germany. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 09:55:33 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 09:55:33 -0500 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: <4C18E3B8.7030201@kopriva.de> References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> <4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de> <4C18E3B8.7030201@kopriva.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 9:46 AM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > As far as i know, the Amiga and the C-900 have different roots ... > ... the Amiga was developed in the USA (Commodore bought the company > "Amiga"), whereas > the C-900 was developed mostly in Germany The amiga 1000 was developed by a startup company which commodore bought. From that, they designed the amiga 500 and 2000 which were very similar. http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/a2000.html >The first version of the A2000 was designed by a group in Germany. It shares much of the >A1000 design, integrating several parts of the motherboard design. It looks like commodore did a rework of the 2000 motherboard early on. But I believe the keyboard interface stayed the same. brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 09:59:44 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:59:44 -0400 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> <4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de> <4C18E3B8.7030201@kopriva.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: > It looks like commodore did a rework of the 2000 motherboard early on. > ?But I believe the keyboard interface stayed the same. The A1000 and A2000 keyboard interfaces use the same voltages and protocols. The difference is that the A1000 used a handset jack (like a narrow RJ-11) and the A2000 used a DIN5. A simple mechanical adapter cable allows you to use one keyboard on the other computer (I have one that lets you use an A2000 keyboard on an A1000). -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 10:03:18 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:03:18 -0500 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> <4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de> <4C18E3B8.7030201@kopriva.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The A1000 and A2000 keyboard interfaces use the same voltages and > protocols. ?The difference is that the A1000 used a handset jack (like > a narrow RJ-11) and the A2000 used a DIN5. ?A simple mechanical > adapter cable allows you to use one keyboard on the other computer (I > have one that lets you use an A2000 keyboard on an A1000). That doesn't bode well for being able to use a 2000 keyboard on the c900. brian From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jun 16 10:22:44 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:22:44 +0200 Subject: pdp10 rack free for pickup in northern Germany In-Reply-To: <4C18DCAD.4050102@bitsavers.org> References: <4C18D705.4000205@hachti.de> <4C18DCAD.4050102@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C18EC44.2010507@hachti.de> Al Kossow wrote: > If you have the space, save the side panels. They can be > harder to find than the racks. I neither have space nor use for them :-( I have saved every H960 side panel that I saw along my way. And I already know: This was wise... I hope to find someone who likes the rack resp. side panels. There is a slight chance that I can keep the panels longer than the rack... Regards, Philipp From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jun 16 10:23:48 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:23:48 +0200 Subject: pdp10 rack free for pickup in northern Germany In-Reply-To: <4C18DFB3.9050903@neurotica.com> References: <4C18D705.4000205@hachti.de> <4C18DCAD.4050102@bitsavers.org> <4C18DFB3.9050903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C18EC84.1060000@hachti.de> Dave McGuire wrote: > Agreed loudly. I've been looking for about four sets of H960 side > panels for about twenty years. And I just got two more H960s two weeks > ago that are missing the side panels! :-) But those side panels are *not* H960 compatible. Otherwise I'd grabbed them *immediately* :-) Regards, Philipp From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 16 10:32:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:32:42 -0700 Subject: quick test: floppy motor speed variation In-Reply-To: <4C1863BE.6010003@verizon.net> References: <4C1863BE.6010003@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C188C2A.6449.9B598@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2010 at 1:40, Keith wrote: > This sounds way way better than the NatSemi AN-505 note of 1-2%. > > Is anyone else surprised by this result? I was expecting differences > measured in milliseconds not micros. Try the same experiment with some old belt-driven 5.25" drives, such as a Tandon TM100 or Shugart SA450. Almost all 5.25" and 3.5" drives made since about 1986 have been direct-drive units with much better stability. Some of the old 5.25" and 3.5" drives were perfectly dreadful. ISV could be much higher also. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 16 10:42:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:42:12 -0700 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: <409571.23931.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4C14EDDB.7799.131A099@cclist.sydex.com>, <409571.23931.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C188E64.24023.126951@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2010 at 16:29, Chris M wrote: > then those snippets of code would have been relatively easy to trap. Just curious, how would you do this, since the schemes could be quite varied? Another variation was to encrypt the code as it was stored on the floppy and decrypt in memory before execution, based on the results of the copy-protection check. Many games were boot-up games, meaning that they didn't use DOS; they simply booted up into a game. An example of this creativity is demonstrated by early versions of Harvard Graphics, which stored the letters "HGC" in the inter-sector gap on one track and used the "Read Track" NEC 765 command to check for it. That was pretty clever, as it not only used an unconventional way of getting to the gap bytes, but also depended on the disk being produced on a whole-track-write system to preserve the synchronization over the sector write splice. I seem to recall that when IBM first demonstrated the PS/2, no 3.5" copies of Lotus 1-2-3 were available, so the marketing people resorted to one of the copy-protection defeating packages to run their demo. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 11:08:01 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:08:01 +0100 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: <4C188E64.24023.126951@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C14EDDB.7799.131A099@cclist.sydex.com> <409571.23931.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4C188E64.24023.126951@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 4:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I seem to recall that when IBM first demonstrated the PS/2, no 3.5" > copies of Lotus 1-2-3 were available, so the marketing people > resorted to one of the copy-protection defeating packages to run > their demo. Now you come to mention it, I believe I read about that, too. Highly amusing and in some small way "legitimised" the cracking system. I think I read about it and proceeded to find out how to do it myself. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 16 11:30:01 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 17:30:01 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> On 16/06/10 14:43, John Foust wrote: > Premature optimization is the root of all evil. > > What, you need it to be fast? Or just correct? Both :) It's currently taking ~45 seconds to scan and decode 160 tracks (80 track disc, both sides). It'd be nice to get that down by, say, half. This is on an Intel Core2Quad Q6600 overclocked to 3GHz. So "throw more CPU power at it" isn't really an option unless someone wants to give me a machine like Jaguar, Kraken or Bluegene. Actually, this is one algorithm which should multi-thread quite nicely. One track per thread... Hmm... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jun 16 13:22:50 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:22:50 -0500 Subject: pinout for Vector Graphic's ZCB cable References: Message-ID: <03658A9ECE124E8C9C309F3DE538D2DD@vl420mt> It's just a straightforward 16-pin DIP to DB25 IDC ribbon cable, DIP pin 16 aligned with DB25 pin 1. Boy, those are huge files, almost 70MB; my copy from Howard Harte's site is only 3MB (there are several revisions BTW). mike ******************************************* Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 08:35:50 -0400 From: "Bill Degnan" Subject: re: pinout for Vector Graphic's ZCB cable > > I have a Vector Graphic's ZCB cable that is wired for a 9600b 8/n/1 serial > terminal. It was working yesterday, but the connections were brittle and a > few of the wires have come loose from the 25-pin connector. I can see the > spots where the solder was applied but I am not confident that I have the > correct repair points. Does anyone have the pinouts for this cable so I > can re-solder/replace? I believe this is the answer to my question page 10 of http://vector-graphic.info/vg_zcb.aspx (download/part 2) Bill From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 16 12:34:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:34:42 -0700 Subject: OC/OD 48 ma transceivers Message-ID: <4C18A8C2.23481.796862@cclist.sydex.com> I'm working on a controller to drive some long >1m bidirectional lines that require 220/330 termination and 48 ma. drive current capability. For sake of argument, call them SCSI-1 SE (but they're not SCSI (or HPIB)). I'm finding that my choices are pretty limited. I could use a 74F621, 74FCT621 (CMOS) or a good old 75160. All appear to be within the same approximate price range. Can anyone make any recommendations? Thanks, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 13:13:03 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:13:03 -0700 Subject: OC/OD 48 ma transceivers In-Reply-To: <4C18A8C2.23481.796862@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C18A8C2.23481.796862@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:34:42 -0700 > Subject: OC/OD 48 ma transceivers > > I'm working on a controller to drive some long >1m bidirectional > lines that require 220/330 termination and 48 ma. drive current > capability. For sake of argument, call them SCSI-1 SE (but they're > not SCSI (or HPIB)). > > I'm finding that my choices are pretty limited. I could use a > 74F621, 74FCT621 (CMOS) or a good old 75160. All appear to be within > the same approximate price range. > > Can anyone make any recommendations? > > Thanks, > Chuck > Hi Chuck You can always parallel outputs of something like a '244 or similar. I've done this in the past when I needed more drive. The CMOS versions share well but the TTL versions don't. I found that if using TTL, I had to over spec by 100% to get good sharing while the CMOS I found about +25% worked quite well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 16 14:30:46 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 12:30:46 -0700 Subject: OC/OD 48 ma transceivers In-Reply-To: <4C18A8C2.23481.796862@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C18A8C2.23481.796862@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C192666.2020301@bitsavers.org> On 6/16/10 10:34 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm working on a controller to drive some long>1m bidirectional > lines that require 220/330 termination and 48 ma. drive current > capability. For sake of argument, call them SCSI-1 SE (but they're > not SCSI (or HPIB)). > > I'm finding that my choices are pretty limited. I could use a > 74F621, 74FCT621 (CMOS) or a good old 75160. you probably want to use a slower part (ls641) for a cable driver. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 16 15:34:40 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 13:34:40 -0700 Subject: OC/OD 48 ma transceivers In-Reply-To: <4C192666.2020301@bitsavers.org> References: <4C18A8C2.23481.796862@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C192666.2020301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C18D2F0.6482.11E2A1E@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2010 at 12:30, Al Kossow wrote: > you probably want to use a slower part (ls641) for a cable driver. 48 ma. is the stumbling block there--ISTR that LS is rated for 24 ma. AS/S/F/FCT are all rated for 48. Futurlec has the 75160B for $1.90 the each, so I'm inclined to go that way. Dwight, I could parallel a 244, but that'd double the package count and not be OC, so I'm less inclined to take that approach. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 16 15:36:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:36:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Model M Keyboard problem In-Reply-To: <4C17DCB9.9090707@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 15, 10 03:04:09 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> (might not solve the "getting paid" problem though...) > > > > Indeed. And for some odd reeaon, companies like Farnell, and E-bay > > sellers seem to want money in exchange for their toys. > > Well, you might find that a rescue shelter cat costs a small fortune, by the I am well waare of the expense of habving a cat share my life -- and I think it's well worth it :-) Please note that the reason Pentina is no longer with us is that the vet couldn't do anything, not that we were unable (or unwilling) to pay the vet to save him. > way - the shelters here at least give any animals that are taken in all their > shots (and spay/neuter them), and then the bill for those gets passed on to YEs, the ones round here do that too. If they didn't, I'd have it done anyway, particularly the neutering. I feel that responsible owners should do that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 16 15:42:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:42:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: - ot pets In-Reply-To: <4C17FAE7.3050208@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 15, 10 05:12:55 pm Message-ID: > One of ours was a rescue from a wood pile out back - she's tiny, but has the > loudest meow of any cat I've heard :-) She'll come in first thing in the If I ever ended upo with 3 cats (not that I am planning to), one being a ginger cat like Pentina, then I'd name the ginger one after the Greek word for 'amber' [1],. the most talkative one of the remainder after that paoperty [2] and give the third one the obvious other name from the set [3] [1] Electron [2] Muon (because he mews on and on and on) [3] Tauon, of course. Yes I do like giving cats strange names. Pentinawas named afte a strange SLR camera, the shutter of which makes use of a bug in the design [4]. [4] The cat got the name because one rare version of the camera is gold-plated, a similar colour to the ginger cat. As for the shutter design, an explanation of the Werra, Pentina, Prestor shutter, etc is _way_ off topic... -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 16 16:06:03 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:06:03 -0600 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 Message-ID: ebay item #310225342321 "Miltope Corp. Vintage Flexible Disk Drive P/N 465490F, P/N 13049073, NSN: 1430-01-124-2671 NOS Condition. Never Installed. Complete and intact. Should be completely functional. Used in the Western Electric Nike System. 8" Floppy Disk Drive. Used for running simulation programs. Smoke Free Environment. Please e-mail with any questions. Sold as is. No Warranty. USA Address Only. LAST ONE!!!" FYI -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 16:13:55 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:13:55 -0700 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, at least the shipping isn't crazy... $19 to ship a 45 pound item. :) Mark On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Richard wrote: > ebay item #310225342321 > > ? ? ? ?"Miltope Corp. Vintage Flexible Disk Drive P/N 465490F, P/N > ? ? ? ?13049073, NSN: 1430-01-124-2671 ? ?NOS Condition. > ? ? ? ?Never Installed. Complete and intact. ?Should be completely > ? ? ? ?functional. > ? ? ? ?Used in the Western Electric Nike System. ?8" Floppy Disk Drive. > ? ? ? ?Used for running simulation programs. > ? ? ? ?Smoke Free Environment. ?Please e-mail with any questions. > ? ? ? ?Sold as is. No Warranty. ?USA Address Only. ?LAST ONE!!!" > > FYI > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From alhartman at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 16:15:25 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making Amiga Disks Message-ID: <755313.7022.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Just to let all the folks on the list know... There's a program just like the Disk Transfer Utility for Apple ]['s called "Amiga Explorer". It's sold by Cloanto, who makes "Amiga Forever". Being an owner of that, I have the program. All I need to do is find one of my Null Modem Cables to attach a PC to the Amiga 500 to transfer disk images. It will even install the program needed on the Amiga end over the serial connection. So, once I get the Amiga 500 sorted out (the unit came badly packaged, showed up in pieces and isn't working...), I'll be able to transfer OS disk images to it. Anyone have advice on which version of Kickstart ROMS and OS is the best/most useful on an A500? Is there a driver to use a ZIP Drive as mass storage? Or use an old Adaptec Parallel Port SCSI adapter to run a Disk Drive? Al From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 16 16:24:19 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > It's currently taking ~45 seconds to scan and decode 160 tracks (80 > track disc, both sides). It'd be nice to get that down by, say, half. The rotational speed is 300 RPM (unless you modify the drive) The heads only operate one at a time (unless you modify the drive). You can only do one cylinder at a time (unless you modify the drive). You have a minimum of 160 revolutions of the spindle at 300 RPM, PLUS a minimum of 79 step (and settle) times. What would be your theoretical maximum speed (unless you modify the drive)? Hmmm. Howzbout: a drive that spins at least 600 RPM, and has a lot of heads, each head having its own "logic board"? With 4 heads on each side, you'd only need 20 revolutions. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 16 16:27:45 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:27:45 -0600 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 15 Jun 2010 16:20:56 -0700. <629955.39536.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <629955.39536.qm at web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > can you send me pictures? I'll add it to the list of stuff I'm supposed to take pictures of and post back when they're available :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 16 16:53:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:53:35 -0700 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2010 at 15:06, Richard wrote: > ebay item #310225342321 > > "Miltope Corp. Vintage Flexible Disk Drive P/N 465490F, P/N > 13049073, NSN: 1430-01-124-2671 NOS Condition. > Never Installed. Complete and intact. Should be completely > functional. > Used in the Western Electric Nike System. 8" Floppy Disk Drive. > Used for running simulation programs. > Smoke Free Environment. Please e-mail with any questions. > Sold as is. No Warranty. USA Address Only. LAST ONE!!!" Takes standard 8" media or something peculiar to itself? --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 17:07:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:07:50 -0400 Subject: Making Amiga Disks In-Reply-To: <755313.7022.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <755313.7022.qm@web55307.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Al Hartman wrote: > Anyone have advice on which version of Kickstart ROMS and OS is the best/most useful on an A500? If you want to run older software and don't have an autobooting hard drive, Kickstart 1.2 is fine, but you might want AmigaDOS 1.3 instead of 1.2 (there are some other minor improvements). If you have an Autobooting hard drive (Commodore A590, for example), you'll need Kickstart 1.3. I have an old Stardrive on a Starboard memory expansion for my A1000 - it does _not_ autoboot - I have to boot from a special floppy that has the Stardrive driver and other important files (mountlists, for example) that repoints all the important system logicals to directories on the hard disk after all the setup stuff is done. For that, either Kickstart 1.2 or 1.3 works. If you don't care to run really old games and such and don't have a fondness for the old black/white/blue/orange Workbench color scheme, Kickstart 2.04 and some newer flavor of AmigaDOS is nice (and still should let you run most older programs, too, unless they are heavily copy-protected direct-floppy-boot games that depend on specific ROM contents). > Is there a driver to use a ZIP Drive as mass storage? A SCSI ZIP drive should just work as well as any other SCSI disk - it's dependent on what adapter you have as to what you have to do > Or use an old Adaptec Parallel Port SCSI adapter to run a Disk Drive? PC parallel ports are very different from Amiga parallel ports (for a variety of technical reasons). I did google this: http://aminet.net/package/docs/hard/ppazip - but that's for a parallel-port ZIP drive, not an Adaptec SCSI adapter. There are likely to be very few parallel port device drivers for PC hardware on an Amiga. I tried long ago to get official information on how the Xircom "pocket adapter" NICs talk to the PC parallel port and Xircom declined to provide details because they "didn't want to get into that market". For the A500, there are SCSI and IDE interfaces, internal (in the 68000 socket) and external (SOTS), but finding one these days is likely to be challenging. I think the majority of A500s were bought with floppies-only and stayed floppies-only their entire lives (though it was ordinary to have an external floppy drive if you didn't have a hard disk - it's difficult to use an Amiga with only one drive). -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 16 17:07:50 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 23:07:50 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> On 16/06/10 22:24, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jun 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> It's currently taking ~45 seconds to scan and decode 160 tracks (80 >> track disc, both sides). It'd be nice to get that down by, say, half. > > The rotational speed is 300 RPM (unless you modify the drive) > The heads only operate one at a time (unless you modify the drive). > You can only do one cylinder at a time (unless you modify the drive). I think the issue is getting confused here: this is IN ADDITION to the time it takes to read the disc. I'm down to 90 seconds to read an 80-track disc (which is close to the theoretical ideal, and certainly "good enough") as magnetic transition timing data. To convert that timing data to MFM bits, I have to feed it through the "software data separator" -- which is what's taking 45 seconds per disc. Reading the disc isn't the issue -- it's converting the magnetic transition data back into something useful which takes an age. Less time than reading a disc, but I'd still like to make it a bit better than ~2m15 per disc... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 17:31:49 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 18:31:49 -0400 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 16/06/10 22:24, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Jun 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> It's currently taking ~45 seconds to scan and decode 160 tracks (80 >>> track disc, both sides). It'd be nice to get that down by, say, half. >> >> The rotational speed is 300 RPM (unless you modify the drive) >> The heads only operate one at a time (unless you modify the drive). >> You can only do one cylinder at a time (unless you modify the drive). > > I think the issue is getting confused here: this is IN ADDITION to the > time it takes to read the disc. I was going to jump in here too. :) > I'm down to 90 seconds to read an 80-track disc (which is close to the > theoretical ideal, and certainly "good enough") as magnetic transition > timing data. To convert that timing data to MFM bits, I have to feed it > through the "software data separator" -- which is what's taking 45 > seconds per disc. hohoho my project is better than yours in some way. My amiga floppy project will read a full disk and write an .ADF in around 50 seconds, total. There's still room for more optimization, too. You can watch a demo of the current version of project if you want. See video link a couple posts down or the pictures. http://techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog/ 50s is a pretty reasonable time for me. If I do the time-between-edges conversion(or do pll) in the FPGA, I can probably chop that time to around 35-40s. I think I could get it to theoretical maximum. I transfer the data while I'm receiving it from the drive. So the first bit gets transmitted to the PC within 10us(!!) of the first pulse being received from the disk. Keith From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jun 16 18:04:05 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 19:04:05 -0400 Subject: pdp10 rack free for pickup in northern Germany In-Reply-To: <4C18DFB3.9050903@neurotica.com> References: <4C18D705.4000205@hachti.de> <4C18DCAD.4050102@bitsavers.org> <4C18DFB3.9050903@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C195865.60809@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: >>On 6/16/10 10:16 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > >>>No faceplate. But both grey side >>>panels. >>> >>> >>If you have the space, save the side panels. They can be >>harder to find than the racks. >> >Agreed loudly. I've been looking for about four sets of H960 side >panels for about twenty years. And I just got two more H960s two weeks >ago that are missing the side panels! > > How do I identify an H960 rack? I have a number of racks that were used to hold 2 * RL02 drives with the PDP-11/23 in the centre, probably in a BA11 box. There was enough room left for a DEC RX02 if someone was creative. Very likely, two of the racks were connected, but the rest still have their side panels. Jerome Fine From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 18:23:38 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 19:23:38 -0400 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C195CFA.80003@verizon.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > You have a minimum of 160 revolutions of the spindle at 300 RPM, PLUS > a minimum of 79 step (and settle) times. > What would be your theoretical maximum speed (unless you modify the > drive)? I've done this math about a million times. :) Absolute minimum read time: 200ms * 160 = 32 seconds. Practical minimum w/o circular buffer support: 220ms * 160 = 35.2 seconds. (you've got to read 12 amiga sectors(instead of 11) because you start reading in the middle of a sector) Stepping and settle: spec sheets say 3ms step + 15ms settle, but practically, it's a lot less. I transmit a 2us wide step, wait 5ms, and then I loop, selecting the lower head, and start reading the data. From most recent drives I've tested, they don't start outputting raw MFM until they are ready. (basically, good MFM comes out from the very beginning). I can tolerate junk at beginning of track anyways. Let's say 18ms * 80 = 1.44 seconds. So we're talking like 37 seconds best case. I'm doing it in around 50s, the time that's left is 1> pc processing time (which can still be optimized) around 10ms. 2> after track finishes being read, the fifo has to finish sending to the PC. I'm pretty happy with my times. Keith From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 16 18:59:08 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:59:08 -0700 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4C1671F1.3020607@softjar.se> Message-ID: At 7:46 AM -0700 6/15/10, Zane H. Healy wrote: >I sent a dealer I know that specializes in PDP-11's a few questions, >I'll let you know if find out anything. Okay, here is what I learned. My comments are in parentheses. 1. When writing an image out to the HD, you must have the exact same number of blocks for the image and the HD. (This is why I'd suggested dd'ing the HD to an image, using that image with SIMH to do the install, and then dd'ing it back.) 2. RSTS is very picky about what it will support (I can confirm this from my personal experience with 10.1). 3. "The RQZX1 does support non DEC devices. However if you change a drive it will require you to go into the firmware to update it. Even if it is the same exact model of drive." 4. RSTS/E might only support up to a 2GB drive (I use a 2GB drive). I'm still seeing if I can get ahold of a copy of the manual for the RQZX1. Hopefully RSTS/E isn't picky about about what sorts of drives are attached to the RQZX1. I know I can use non-DEC HD's on my Viking, and since the RQZX1 can use non-DEC devices, I think you're safe. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 16 19:25:21 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 01:25:21 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> On 16/06/10 23:31, Keith wrote: > hohoho my project is better than yours in some way. "Bender, you said 'wink wink' out loud!" "No I didn't... raise middle finger..." :) > My amiga floppy project will read a full disk and write an .ADF in > around 50 seconds, total. There's still room for more optimization, too. Interesting -- the SX2DEV can transfer data that quickly? Or are you dumping to FRAM then reading the FRAM data back to the host in some way? Ah wait -- that schematic's out of date. A 2Mbit serial link to an FTDI chip, then onto USB? Not bad. I'm dumping a track at a time to static RAM, then dumping the SRAM to the PC over a USB link. Unfortunately it's only USB Full Speed (10Mbps give or take), so the peak transfer rate with protocol overheads is, at best, 500Kbytes/sec. > I transfer the data while I'm receiving it from the drive. So the first > bit gets transmitted to the PC within 10us(!!) of the first pulse being > received from the disk. In theory the DiscFerret could be made to do that, but I'd need to add bus arbitration logic to allow the PIC and analyser to share the bus. At the moment I'm taking the easy way out: no arbitration, one at a time, the PIC transfers the data after it's all been acquired. I'll need to add an arbiter later on anyway -- the Mk2 disc writer engine needs to go in, and that needs access to the SRAM too. Shouldn't be too hard though. I do note with some interest that the SPS are getting quite far along with the "Kryoflux" reader, which is supposedly going to be open-source. Given the fact that their capture and analysis stuff is still very hush-hush despite promises of OSS releases and more information on it, I'm taking their statements with a pinch of salt... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 16 19:32:46 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 01:32:46 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C195CFA.80003@verizon.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C195CFA.80003@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C196D2E.2000307@philpem.me.uk> On 17/06/10 00:23, Keith wrote: > I've done this math about a million times. :) > > Absolute minimum read time: 200ms * 160 = 32 seconds. > Practical minimum w/o circular buffer support: 220ms * 160 = 35.2 seconds. > > (you've got to read 12 amiga sectors(instead of 11) because you start > reading in the middle of a sector) Hm, so that's another acq mode you could use -- start immediately, then stop on the 13th MFM_SYNC_DETECT. Personally I'd go with a double back-to-back read, which produces about 180K of data. You start on the first index pulse, then keep reading through the second one, and stop reading on the first index pulse. This would give you a seamless block, *and* tell you what the time delta from the index pulse to the start of the track is. On most mastered discs this may well be close to zero, but on copy protected discs (for any platform), this kind of info may be important... > So we're talking like 37 seconds best case. I'm doing it in around 50s, > the time that's left is > > 1> pc processing time (which can still be optimized) around 10ms. > 2> after track finishes being read, the fifo has to finish sending to > the PC. If the DiscFerret wasn't in pieces, I'd run a read test and post a scan time. At the moment I'm borrowing its power supply to power a Planar EL display panel that I'm playing with -- a surplus item that apparently came out of a Sun StorEdge A5100. Totally off-topic, but it was made by a Tek spinoff, looks frickin' cool compared to an LCD, and... well, what more reason do you need? ;) And reverse engineering is fun. ;) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jun 16 20:16:27 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:16:27 -0400 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> You think the internal is a standard mech? The DIN's on the back are obviously non standard for interfacing... too bad it doesn't come with a Nike Missile, not THAT would make for a cool lawn ornament! ;-) He's out on Long Island, NY... I'm assuming they must've been a Nike Installation around that area, though the only one I'm familiar with is the old Sandy Hook Nike Missile base in New Jersey that was supposed to protect NYC. Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jun 2010 at 15:06, Richard wrote: > > >> ebay item #310225342321 >> >> "Miltope Corp. Vintage Flexible Disk Drive P/N 465490F, P/N >> 13049073, NSN: 1430-01-124-2671 NOS Condition. >> Never Installed. Complete and intact. Should be completely >> functional. >> Used in the Western Electric Nike System. 8" Floppy Disk Drive. >> Used for running simulation programs. >> Smoke Free Environment. Please e-mail with any questions. >> Sold as is. No Warranty. USA Address Only. LAST ONE!!!" >> > > Takes standard 8" media or something peculiar to itself? > > --Chuck > > > From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 20:44:16 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:44:16 -0400 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 16/06/10 23:31, Keith wrote: >> hohoho my project is better than yours in some way. > > "Bender, you said 'wink wink' out loud!" > "No I didn't... raise middle finger..." > > :) > >> My amiga floppy project will read a full disk and write an .ADF in >> around 50 seconds, total. There's still room for more optimization, too. > > Interesting -- the SX2DEV can transfer data that quickly? Or are you > dumping to FRAM then reading the FRAM data back to the host in some way? > > Ah wait -- that schematic's out of date. A 2Mbit serial link to an FTDI > chip, then onto USB? Not bad. Sorry sorry, yes, I've got to update my stuff. Originally I had a Parallax uC with FRAM memory. That was disk->fram, and then fram->usb. Now, I've got a Spartan-3E FPGA, and it basically goes disk->fifo->USB2SER converter. The converter does USB<->TTL voltages, up to 3mbps. I run it at 2mbps reliably. > I'm dumping a track at a time to static RAM, then dumping the SRAM to > the PC over a USB link. Unfortunately it's only USB Full Speed (10Mbps > give or take), so the peak transfer rate with protocol overheads is, at > best, 500Kbytes/sec. You are still getting 4mbps, that's pretty good. Yes, I was using serial FRAM. Neat stuff to work with. Nonvolatile and I used the serial version so I didn't eat too many pins on my uC. > I do note with some interest that the SPS are getting quite far along > with the "Kryoflux" reader, which is supposedly going to be open-source. > Given the fact that their capture and analysis stuff is still very > hush-hush despite promises of OSS releases and more information on it, > I'm taking their statements with a pinch of salt... I've tried several times to get involved. I'm an old amiga guy, working on similar floppy projects, and my emails to them have basically been ignored. I'm frustrated with them too. They tell us about how great the stuff they've made is --- and then don't let us download (heck, even a binary) of the effort. And then they say they are "preserving software", but it's completely inaccessible to the public. (even though you can download on the pirate networks) I remain completely unimpressed until I see first hand exactly what they've "accomplished." Keith From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 20:53:13 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:53:13 -0400 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > You think the internal is a standard mech? ? The DIN's on the back are > obviously non standard for interfacing... Those are standard style post-1960s mil connectors. > He's out on Long Island, NY... ? I'm assuming they must've been a Nike > Installation around that area, though the only one I'm familiar with is the > old Sandy Hook Nike Missile base in New Jersey that was supposed to protect > NYC. It is actually hard to name a place in the populated US that did not have a Nike site. They were everywhere. -- Will From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jun 16 21:49:02 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 22:49:02 -0400 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4C198D1E.1080903@atarimuseum.com> I saw some photo's, there used to be an active ready Nike site in a park area with apartments right across the street... and to think, some Nike's were nuclear tipped too! Whoa... William Donzelli wrote: >> You think the internal is a standard mech? The DIN's on the back are >> obviously non standard for interfacing... >> > > Those are standard style post-1960s mil connectors. > > >> He's out on Long Island, NY... I'm assuming they must've been a Nike >> Installation around that area, though the only one I'm familiar with is the >> old Sandy Hook Nike Missile base in New Jersey that was supposed to protect >> NYC. >> > > It is actually hard to name a place in the populated US that did not > have a Nike site. They were everywhere. > > -- > Will > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 16 22:00:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:00:20 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk>, <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C192D54.11062.27F4292@cclist.sydex.com> Sigh. There are times when I'd be happy to get one disk an hour. Finally solved (I think) the mystery of the "slipping belt". It's not that. The data of every sector on the track looks to be correct, but all of the *data* CRCs are foobar. The CRC for the IDAMs is fine. Screwball firmware? Just a couple of tracks like this, but they all have goofy data CRCs on every sector. The histograms of the read pulses from those sectors shows no aberrations--3 nice clean peaks, about where you'd expect them. Not an LSI controller of any sort, BTW. In the middle of all of these things is a 32-hard-sector FM-encoded floppy. I've got to figure out what the customer wants to do with it. Most people don't realize how many formats there are once you get outside of the "Personal Computer" arena. These are from a Fairchild wafter tester. On to a batch of 240K Brother WP floppies (3.5" GCR). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 16 22:01:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:01:25 -0700 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: References: , <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com>, Message-ID: <4C192D95.20592.2803DDB@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2010 at 21:53, William Donzelli wrote: > > You think the internal is a standard mech? ? The DIN's on the back > > are obviously non standard for interfacing... > > Those are standard style post-1960s mil connectors. Yeah, I saw that, but I don't see any indication of the media these things take. --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jun 16 23:40:17 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 05:40:17 +0100 Subject: IBM S/370 retrieved In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46AA9@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <4C088C6F.80700@neurotica.com><201006040822.58985.lbickley@bickleywest.com><4C09352D.9050802@neurotica.com> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46AA9@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <32D97C08618445DFA7396A913C2523F1@Edicons.local> Hey Dave! I think Bob may be as big a find as the system!!! -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Brown Sent: 16 June 2010 15:13 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: IBM S/370 retrieved Let me know if I can be of VSE or VM help..I used to be a systems programmer for a VM/SP / VSE/SP shop. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: Friday, June 04, 2010 12:18 PM To: General at harpercollege.edu; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM S/370 retrieved On 6/4/10 11:22 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> I am so happy about this I can hardly contain myself. =) > > What a find! Pristine and complete! Congratulations!!! > > Best to you at getting it up and running - esp. VM/370 and MVS. However, the "current" VSE/SP is also an excellent OS... Thanks! Yes, I'm sure VSE is a great OS, many people speak highly of it. I just don't know anything about it. Is there a VSE distribution floating around that I could run under Hercules, or perhaps on a P/390? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 00:17:46 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 15:17:46 +1000 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4C1671F1.3020607@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Okay, here is what I learned. ?My comments are in parentheses. This is great! thanks for taking the time to chase this down. > 1. When writing an image out to the HD, you must have the exact same number > of blocks for the image and the HD. ?(This is why I'd suggested dd'ing the > HD to an image, using that image with SIMH to do the install, and then > dd'ing it back.) Ok, this is easy to test, I will report back with the results. > 4. RSTS/E might only support up to a 2GB drive (I use a 2GB drive). I will be using 1GB (or thereabouts) drive. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 00:36:06 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 00:36:06 -0500 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: <4C198D1E.1080903@atarimuseum.com> References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> <4C198D1E.1080903@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > I saw some photo's, there used to be an active ready Nike site in a park > area with apartments right across the street... and to think, some Nike's > were nuclear tipped too! ?Whoa... It is not uncommon to find softballl fields, parks, etc named "Nike Field." There is one in the Chicago suburbs which still has a platform that used to hold the radome. From jonathan.pdp11 at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 05:26:44 2010 From: jonathan.pdp11 at gmail.com (Jonathan PDP11) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 11:26:44 +0100 Subject: Authentic PDP-11 rack available for rescue in London In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All I'm pleased to inform the House that the rack has been rescued by the Honorable Member for Luton who will be using it for his tape drives. Another fine piece of history saved from the Other Place. Jonathan On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Jonathan PDP11 wrote: > Dear All > > I have a PDP-11 rack available for rescue in central London. It's just the > metal rack, no computer or power supply. Sadly space is no longer available > for it. > > It's the cream-coloured style, about 42-inches tall, with a radiused top, > to match your 11/34 and RL02s. Has both sides, top, and two front blanking > panels. Has a few rust spots but not too bad. Castors. It looks like this > 11/94 . > > It would really suit someone trying to achieve an authentic "cream period" > PDP-11 which I believe began with the 11/04 in 1976. > > I might be able to find one or two more pieces, I think even an old power > supply for a 11/34. > > Free for anyone who would like to collect it. Would require a van or at > least an estate car. > > Any takers? > > Kind regards, > Jonathan. > From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 13:55:06 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 14:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... In-Reply-To: References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de> <4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de> <4C18E3B8.7030201@kopriva.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Brian Lanning wrote: >> It looks like commodore did a rework of the 2000 motherboard early on. >> ?But I believe the keyboard interface stayed the same. > > The A1000 and A2000 keyboard interfaces use the same voltages and > protocols. The difference is that the A1000 used a handset jack (like > a narrow RJ-11) and the A2000 used a DIN5. A simple mechanical > adapter cable allows you to use one keyboard on the other computer (I > have one that lets you use an A2000 keyboard on an A1000). A number of the Northgate OmniKey models had an Amiga personality built in and switch-selectable. I use one on my A4000. Steve -- From jonathan.pdp11 at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 14:27:18 2010 From: jonathan.pdp11 at gmail.com (Jonathan PDP11) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:27:18 +0100 Subject: Authentic PDP-11 rack available for rescue in London In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear All I'm pleased to inform the House that the rack has been rescued by the Honorable Member for Luton who will be using it for his tape drives. Another fine piece of history saved from the Other Place. Jonathan. On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Jonathan PDP11 wrote: > Dear All > > I have a PDP-11 rack available for rescue in central London. It's just the > metal rack, no computer or power supply. Sadly space is no longer available > for it. > > It's the cream-coloured style, about 42-inches tall, with a radiused top, > to match your 11/34 and RL02s. Has both sides, top, and two front blanking > panels. Has a few rust spots but not too bad. Castors. It looks like this > 11/94 . > > It would really suit someone trying to achieve an authentic "cream period" > PDP-11 which I believe began with the 11/04 in 1976. > > I might be able to find one or two more pieces, I think even an old power > supply for a 11/34. > > Free for anyone who would like to collect it. Would require a van or at > least an estate car. > > Any takers? > > Kind regards, > Jonathan. > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 17:43:16 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <378595.54140.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/16/10, Liam Proven wrote: Highly > amusing and in some small way "legitimised" the cracking > system. While working in an EMI lab in the late 80s, I was told by a guy that the crackers provided the copy protection schemes (for machines like the C64), and *waited* to release these tools to the public. Don't ask me, this is what I was told. And in fact down at the calibration lab there was a file cabinet fool of the tools needed to make copies of otherwise copy protected stuff (mostly games). They had loads and loads of Commie s/w. Stuff probably garnered from bbs' and whatnot. Even some crazy stuff from abroad (no not *a* broad LOL LOL). Stuff I know I wouldn't and didn't see anywhere else. From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Jun 16 20:33:52 2010 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:33:52 -0400 Subject: OS/8 editors, was Re: Programing PDP-8 assembler - details Message-ID: <201006170133.o5H1XqC09444@mail.pdp8online.com> > I'm very much interested in both of those. Can I talk you into making >them available? > I have a copy of vista here http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/dewar-editor.rk05;sort=name In a search I found this http://vandermark.ch/pdp8/local/Sources/read_dir.php?f=Other/new-22-vista-2.1981.pxg It appears to be the vista editor source. The actual vista source seems to be in the empty at the end if its complete. I haven't tried to build it. Has modules for a couple different terminals. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 17 01:16:31 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:16:31 -0400 Subject: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... References: <4C07BE1B.8070208@kopriva.de> <4C17A030.9040400@kopriva.de><4C18DE40.7020807@kopriva.de><4C18E3B8.7030201@kopriva.de> Message-ID: <43DA784415174642BBB3C7066308E477@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Commodore C 900 documentation and software required ... > On Wed, 16 Jun 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > A number of the Northgate OmniKey models had an Amiga personality built in > and switch-selectable. > > I use one on my A4000. > > Steve > Yea, I have an Ultra T model on my A2000. My 102 does not work in amiga mode. Thing is in Amiga mode the key layout is slightly different so you need to move a couple keys around , and there should be an Amiga kit available at one time to have the Amiga keycaps. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 17 01:42:40 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 01:42:40 -0500 Subject: Apricot in the US In-Reply-To: <378595.54140.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <378595.54140.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C19C3E0.2030001@oldskool.org> On 6/16/2010 5:43 PM, Chris M wrote: > > While working in an EMI lab in the late 80s, I was told by a guy that the crackers provided the copy protection schemes (for machines like the C64), and *waited* to release these tools to the public. That's tinfoil-hat talk. I used to hear similar "proof" that the real virus writers were Symantec, Mcafee, etc. to provide a market for their tools, which is also crazy talk. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 17 05:47:18 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:47:18 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> On 17/06/10 02:44, Keith wrote: > Now, I've got a Spartan-3E FPGA, and it basically goes > disk->fifo->USB2SER converter. The converter does USB<->TTL voltages, up > to 3mbps. I run it at 2mbps reliably. Hmm, that's an idea. Dump the data into a FIFO, then have an arbitration state machine on the other side to give the PIC access to the RAM... Only problem is that the parallel slave port doesn't (IIRC) have a BUSY / BUSAK / DTACK input, so you can't stop the SPP bus when the target device (the FPGA) is busy... A BUSRQ/BUSAK type system should be doable though. > I've tried several times to get involved. I'm an old amiga guy, working > on similar floppy projects, and my emails to them have basically been > ignored. Aye, I've tried to get in touch with them twice -- it's always "we'll get back to you" or "we can't tell you". > I'm frustrated with them too. They tell us about how great the > stuff they've made is --- and then don't let us download (heck, even a > binary) of the effort. Even a version of CTA which produced "tagged" IPF files (tagged as in "marked as not produced by the SPS") would be nice, even if it's just a noddy proof-of-concept demo. > And then they say they are "preserving software", > but it's completely inaccessible to the public. (even though you can > download on the pirate networks) You mean the actual IPF files? That's probably more for copyright reasons. I can't see any real problem making boot disc images for e.g. the Heathkit H89, Acorn BBC, Osborne CP/M machines, etc. available as the respective companies no longer exist. I'll tip my hat to the one and only Team 17... Releasing their Amiga games for free? Nice move. > I remain completely unimpressed until I see first hand exactly what > they've "accomplished." Mmm. Not releasing the IPF file format info is pretty inexcusable. They've worked with the HxD guys to add IPF support to that, but they don't seem overly keen to work with open-source teams outside of the UAE developers (what few are left). Also, I would pay good money to see a Kryoflux board imaging an MFM hard drive. The DiscFerret has had that feature from the get-go :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hachti at hachti.de Thu Jun 17 07:54:17 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:54:17 +0200 Subject: pdp10 rack free for pickup in northern Germany In-Reply-To: <4C195865.60809@compsys.to> References: <4C18D705.4000205@hachti.de> <4C18DCAD.4050102@bitsavers.org> <4C18DFB3.9050903@neurotica.com> <4C195865.60809@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4C1A1AF9.3030907@hachti.de> > How do I identify an H960 rack? Here you see a perfect picture of a completely empty H960 rack: http://pdp8.co.uk/wp-content/gallery/h960-restoration/006.jpg From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 17 11:00:56 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:00:56 -0400 Subject: OT: TV/Electronics help needed.... Message-ID: <4C1A46B8.2030701@sbcglobal.net> Apologies first, but I know there are some good A/V guys here... Please reply to me _off-list_, since this isn't ClassicCMP, and I'm only subscribed to the daily digest. I got my self a nice (older) RCA DVD player, model RC5220P; as seen here: http://www.amazon.com/RCA-RC5220P-DVD-Player/dp/B00000J05A Now, on the back, there are 2 phono jack connectors (one yellow, one white); which are labeled RF output. The manual says you need to use an RF adapter, part number CRF800. Here's my question: in usual A/V tradition, a yellow phono connector is composite video, and white (not paired with a red) would be a line level mono audio. Is that the case here? I ask, because I would like to use it with a VCR that only has mono phono connectors. And yes, searching the web was most unhelpful.... I'm tempted to just hook it up to my Sony A/V receiver, but don't want to fry anything..... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 17 13:12:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 19:12:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 16, 10 02:24:19 pm Message-ID: > > It's currently taking ~45 seconds to scan and decode 160 tracks (80 > > track disc, both sides). It'd be nice to get that down by, say, half. > > The rotational speed is 300 RPM (unless you modify the drive) > The heads only operate one at a time (unless you modify the drive). > You can only do one cylinder at a time (unless you modify the drive). > > You have a minimum of 160 revolutions of the spindle at 300 RPM, PLUS > a minimum of 79 step (and settle) times. > What would be your theoretical maximum speed (unless you modify the > drive)? > > > Hmmm. Howzbout: a drive that spins at least 600 RPM, and has a lot of > heads, each head having its own "logic board"? > With 4 heads on each side, you'd only need 20 revolutions. A more practical modification would be to use a 600 rpm drive (which re not uncommon for 3.5" disks) and add a second read amplifier. Then you could read both sides at the sime time, thus meaningyou could image the disk in 80 revolutions. And it's turning twice as fast, so I could guess you'd be close to 1/4 of the origianl time. But does it really matter? This is the sort of thing where you put a disk in and let it image it, then put abnother disk i, and so on. You can be doing something else while it's imaging the disk, when it finishes, you can pop anotehr disk in when it's convenient. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 17 13:15:33 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:15:33 -0700 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> <4C198D1E.1080903@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: From: Jason T Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2010 10:36 PM >> I saw some photo's, there used to be an active ready Nike site in a park >> area with apartments right across the street... and to think, some Nike's >> were nuclear tipped too! Whoa... > It is not uncommon to find softballl fields, parks, etc named "Nike > Field." There is one in the Chicago suburbs which still has a > platform that used to hold the radome. South end of Arlington Heights. When I was in high school (1967-69),[1] there were two or three radomes at the site--which was in the middle of large corn (maize, for our cousins across the Atlantic) fields, which have been industrial parks and suburban housing since the 1970s. [1] Junior and senior years. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From doc at vaxen.net Thu Jun 17 13:32:04 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:32:04 -0500 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4C1671F1.3020607@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C1A6A24.8060408@vaxen.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm still seeing if I can get ahold of a copy of the manual for the RQZX1. I have a scan of a very bad partial copy that I finally made into a PDF. It has Unit 3, switch settings, and Unit 5, the online RFM config tool. It'll be up at http://www.vaxen.net/RQZX1.pdf for a few days. Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jun 17 13:50:06 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 13:50:06 -0500 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> <4C198D1E.1080903@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <201006171850.o5HIohOa021477@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:15 PM 6/17/2010, Rich Alderson wrote: >South end of Arlington Heights. When I was in high school (1967-69),[1] >there were two or three radomes at the site--which was in the middle >of large corn (maize, for our cousins across the Atlantic) fields, >which have been industrial parks and suburban housing since the 1970s. Sometime cctalk-list contributor Ed Thelen maintains a site about former Nike sites. http://ed-thelen.org/loc-i.html#C-80 - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 17 14:10:59 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100617120735.Q61975@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 17 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > A more practical modification would be to use a 600 rpm drive (which re > not uncommon for 3.5" disks) and add a second read amplifier. Then you > could read both sides at the sime time, thus meaningyou could image the > disk in 80 revolutions. And it's turning twice as fast, so I could guess > you'd be close to 1/4 of the origianl time. > > But does it really matter? This is the sort of thing where you put a disk > in and let it image it, then put abnother disk i, and so on. You can be > doing something else while it's imaging the disk, when it finishes, you > can pop anotehr disk in when it's convenient. Yeah. What's the hurry? 45 seconds added to the physical read time does not seem very onerous. It might be a little faster if the tracks are converted one at a time, starting while the drive is stepping/settling. OK, if you have a LOT to do, invest in a automatic disk loading drive (commonly used for small production duplication) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 17 14:13:47 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 12:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> <4C198D1E.1080903@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20100617121247.A61975@shell.lmi.net> > >> I saw some photo's, there used to be an active ready Nike site in a park > >> area with apartments right across the street... and to think, some Nike's > >> were nuclear tipped too! Whoa... > > > It is not uncommon to find softballl fields, parks, etc named "Nike > > Field." Guvmint paid for rebranding/advertising for Nike? From lists at softpres.org Thu Jun 17 15:19:40 2010 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:19:40 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> Message-ID: <815E9EB6-E103-4B64-A567-2135B08CDA73@softpres.org> Keith wrote on 17/06/2010 02:44:16: > I've tried several times to get involved. I'm an old amiga guy, working > on similar floppy projects, and my emails to them have basically been > ignored. I'm frustrated with them too. They tell us about how great > the stuff they've made is --- and then don't let us download (heck, even Hi Keith, I'm from SPS. I am terribly sorry if we missed your email. We started using a response system from mid-2006, and since you don't appear to be in there, I can only assume you emailed us before that? I personally used to answer most of the emails before then, so the fault lies with me. Before late 2009 we didn't had any intention of doing a device ourselves, so we would definitely been very interested to hear from you. Can you remember when it was you emailed us? I think it is great all these floppy reading projects are sprouting up. We have been looking at finding one for 10 years, and now there are many in progress. This is great! With this in mind, I'm going to try and answer some of the things raised here. Hopefully we can all stay on good terms. :) > a binary) of the effort. And then they say they are "preserving > software", but it's completely inaccessible to the public. (even though > you can download on the pirate networks) Unfortunately we just can't provide disk images. It's illegal, and some of us work in the games industry. What we can do, is provide the people that have sent images of their original games with a "verified" version that can be played in emulators, or on the real machines with HxC. The images you see floating about are the ones that contributors have passed on. Fortunately, most images are available this way. We also provide images to various games sites that have permission from the copyright holders. > I remain completely unimpressed until I see first hand exactly what > they've "accomplished." That is fair enough. However, if you are interested, KryoFlux is available right now, and you can download the software here: http://softpres.org/news:2010-03-16. ATM, you need to buy a development board, and getting the manufacturing sorted out has been slow (and expensive!), but it is coming along nicely now. I don't recommend anyone build their own board from our open specification at the moment, because the design has changed a bit since then, and these changes are still being tested. We already have open hardware. We did also say we would provide source code when we are out of beta, which will hopefully coincide with having hardware available to buy. If we don't, feel free to complain. :) Also see my next post in reply to Phil. Kieron From lists at softpres.org Thu Jun 17 15:27:03 2010 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:27:03 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> Philip Pemberton wrote on 17/06/2010 11:47:18: > Aye, I've tried to get in touch with them twice -- it's always "we'll > get back to you" or "we can't tell you". Hi Phil, I'm from SPS. By our records I can see we have had a couple of long conversations with you, and I am sorry we couldn't answer your large mails to your satisfaction (though I think we did pretty well, we even sent you all sorts of non-public information), but... I'm sorry to say it, but we are very busy people. I think people probably don't realise how much work we do (which is fine), but it does mean we must very carefully choose our priorities. We also have family's, day jobs, etc., and it is difficult to get on with productive work, and try to respond to emails from the many people that contact us in a timely manner. It's the same reasons that usually prevents us from posting on mailing lists too. We had some very nice conversations with you from what I can see, so I am not sure why you now perceive us in a negative light? Maybe your comment above "we can't tell you" (I don't think we said that?) is because we have not yet given you the DRAFT image file specs yet. If that is the case, we're not being obstructive, the reason for it is simply because the format doesn't exist yet... What we currently have is raw stream from our hardware, which can be used to create various sector image formats or saved to a file for later conversion. The DRAFT disk image format work is yet to be started - if it had, it would be in the WIP's. > Mmm. Not releasing the IPF file format info is pretty inexcusable. You are of course absolutely right in this regard. We have known since the beginning that it was a pretty ridiculous state of affairs for a image format intended for preservation (we have publically said this in multiple places elsewhere). Fortunately the reasons behind it have disappeared over the years, the remaining thing to do was multi-system support (now done, as of last week). It now basically comes down to finding the time to sort it out. We wanted to do a few other things first (like being able to show that an image really comes from us), but we have been discussing the subject internally recently, and we will probably defer that. It's high time it was available. Feel free to keep complaining until we do it. :) I should state here (as we have confused people on this before), that IPF is a *mastering* format. It is similar to how Trace prepared disk data for writing, where they had the disk data but also scripts describing checksums, data formats, protection, etc. - since you need to know how to write the data (especially copy protection) for it to be reliable (or of course work at all, for some types of protection). It is designed for writing, and that is basically what happens when an IPF tracks are loaded in an emulator (just not to a physical disk of course). IPF is a very different thing to a dump format, and I would say that for most non-preservation purposes a dump format is fine (and also has the advantage of being simple). > They've worked with the HxD guys to add IPF support to that, but they Actually, we had nothing to do with that. Jeff took our developer information and did the whole thing himself, we first found out about it when somebody told us (incorrectly) he had reverse-engineered the IPF format. He hadn't - he used the developer docs available from our website. > don't seem overly keen to work with open-source teams outside of the UAE > developers (what few are left). I am not sure where you heard that, because we are doing that right now, and have been for some time (off and on for a few years in fact). We even went round and contacted a lot of emulator writers (both open source and not) to see if they were interested in supporting IPF. If we want a broad take up of IPF, it is certainly in our interests. Perhaps you think we are not working with them because we haven't explicitly posted about it? > Even a version of CTA which produced "tagged" IPF files (tagged as in > "marked as not produced by the SPS") would be nice, even if it's just a > noddy proof-of-concept demo. Our analyser constitutes several thousand hours of engineering effort over the last 10 years, and comes out of many years of research and development done before that, so to be completely honest with you, I can't see us making that available for free any time soon. I suspect that people wouldn't complain that we are keeping some things to ourselves if we were a company making money from such a huge investment, but we're not even that. We did consider producing a demo version, but again we hit that time/priorities issue, and I doubt it would be interesting to many people anyway. Having said that, you might like to know KryoFlux does have a stripped-down version of parts of the analyser inside it, and has some pretty clever stuff going on. Obviously, don't take my word for it. The proof is in the pudding - you can try it yourself if you have an ARM7 development board. We said from the start that source will be available when everything is finished and we move out of beta, feel free to complain then if it's not. > Also, I would pay good money to see a Kryoflux board imaging an MFM hard > drive. The DiscFerret has had that feature from the get-go :) Sounds neat. :) We're coming very much from the preservation of consumer software angle, and KryoFlux is primarily built to solve problems in that area (we need it ourselves in this regard). Given that we're aiming at common use-cases, I guess this is something that might well stay unique to you - diversity in our solutions is a good thing. I have to say that I'm a bit surprised to see the rather negative sentiment in your post Phil, it's very different from the conversations we have had with you. I don't really understand the reasons for it, but perhaps we can all just try to get along? We're all fighting on the same side after all. Kieron From julian at twinax.org Thu Jun 17 19:38:54 2010 From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 19:38:54 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS disk emulator board? Message-ID: Just curious, has anything been done with this? On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 9:40 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > On Mar 15, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Julian Wolfe wrote: > > > I'd really prefer RP emulation. This would allow use of older OS > versions. > > I'd also really prefer to see a UNIBUS version. > > I'm planning on doing one that'll handle all of the disk types found on > Unibus PDP11s (ie no MSCP). The design is sketched out. It's just finding > the time... > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto: > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > > On Behalf Of e.stiebler > > Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:50 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Solid State Disk replacement for RD53, 54, RK05, RL02/02 > > > > Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> There was a thread recently on the comp.sys.dec newsgroup which ended up > >> with the suggestion from David Riley that he would be prepared to build > an > >> FPGA-based board with a QBUS interface on one side and an SD interface > on > > > > Is there really still interest in it ? > > > > I put my design away few years ago, as I didn't see anybody interested > > enough to buy one. > > There is the seasonal talk of it for sure, but ... > > > > OTOH, they old ones show up on ebay frequently, and they are not that > > expensive. > > > > Remarks ? > > > > Cheers > > > > > > From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 17 19:59:55 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 17:59:55 -0700 Subject: Hans Pufal's PDP-9/PDP-15 files Message-ID: Several years ago, Hans Pufal of ACONIT was one of the people working on restoring a PDP-9 to working condition. In the course of the restoration, they found many DECtapes of PDP-9 and PDP-15 software, which he put up on some personal pages on the museum's web site. The pages are long gone, and the Internet WayBack Machine has only partial remains. In particular, the images of ADSS15 source DECtapes 2, 3, 7, 8, and 14 are missing, along with the .zip files for ADSS15 and DOS-15. Does anyone on the list have copies of these (especially the DECtape images)? Feel free to contact me privately if you like. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 17 20:14:43 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:14:43 -0700 Subject: Hans Pufal's PDP-9/PDP-15 files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1AC883.6050400@bitsavers.org> On 6/17/10 5:59 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Does anyone on the list have copies of these (especially the DECtape images)? > I've put what I have handy under http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp9/hbp From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 17 20:34:30 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:34:30 -0700 Subject: Hans Pufal's PDP-9/PDP-15 files In-Reply-To: <4C1AC883.6050400@bitsavers.org> References: <4C1AC883.6050400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: Al Kossow Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:15 PM > On 6/17/10 5:59 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Does anyone on the list have copies of these (especially the DECtape images)? > I've put what I have handy under http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp9/hbp Waa-hoo! Thanks, Al! Rich From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 17 20:41:26 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:41:26 -0700 Subject: Hans Pufal's PDP-9/PDP-15 files In-Reply-To: References: <4C1AC883.6050400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4C1ACEC6.5020607@bitsavers.org> On 6/17/10 6:34 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 6:15 PM > >> On 6/17/10 5:59 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> Does anyone on the list have copies of these (especially the DECtape images)? > >> I've put what I have handy under http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp9/hbp > > Waa-hoo! Thanks, Al! > There are a bunch of other dectape images under pdp8 and pdp15 on bitsavers, but you probably knew that already. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 17 20:42:25 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 02:42:25 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> Message-ID: <4C1ACF01.8060203@philpem.me.uk> On 17/06/10 21:27, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > We had some very nice conversations with you from what I can see, so > I am not sure why you now perceive us in a negative light? OK, a few reasons: 1) A couple of months ago I had a look at the first 'ticket' / thread I started with you. As I recall that's basically showing "ticket closed, content not visible." -- Annoying, there was some useful info in there and I don't have the confirmation emails. 2) The sheer lack of info in the WIPs. For instance, the stuff that introduces Freeform. How about a couple of example Freeform scripts? Maybe the text or a PDF of the Amiga DevCon notes mentioned? > Maybe your > comment above "we can't tell you" (I don't think we said that?) I don't think you said it in as many words, but I got the impression of SPS having something of a "secret society" aspect to it. A lot of the more technical information (for instance, I'd like to know a little more about how Copylock works and how you can read an RNCL track and get the checksum or take the checksum and remaster the track) seems to be "under lock and key" so to speak. > is because we have not yet given you the DRAFT image file specs yet. If > that is the case, we're not being obstructive, the reason for it is > simply because the format doesn't exist yet... Ah. I got the impression (from the WIPs) that DRAFT had been implemented in the Kryoflux design already... >> Mmm. Not releasing the IPF file format info is pretty inexcusable. > > You are of course absolutely right in this regard. We have known > since the beginning that it was a pretty ridiculous state of affairs > for a image format intended for preservation (we have publically said > this in multiple places elsewhere). Fortunately the reasons behind it > have disappeared over the years, Wasn't the original reason "we don't want badly-made IPFs floating around the internet and ruining our reputation" or something like that? (If not.. well, it's the impression *I* got). > We wanted to do a few > other things first (like being able to show that an image really > comes from us), Distribute it with a GnuPG signature file and put your GnuPG key on the keyservers. Problem solved. > I should state here (as we have confused people on this before), that > IPF is a *mastering* format. It is similar to how Trace prepared disk > data for writing, where they had the disk data but also scripts > describing checksums, data formats, protection, etc. - since you need > to know how to write the data (especially copy protection) for it to > be reliable (or of course work at all, for some types of protection). I was working on something similar for the "write" side of the DiscFerret. It's more or less ground to a halt though; I wanted to have a look at Freeform, but hit a brick wall: the hardware is NLA, and even the last company that's supporting Trace kit doesn't seem to mention the Unix-box-and-autoloader duplicators, just the tin-box all-in-one units. > It is designed for writing, and that is basically what happens when > an IPF tracks are loaded in an emulator (just not to a physical disk > of course). IPF is a very different thing to a dump format, and I > would say that for most non-preservation purposes a dump format is > fine (and also has the advantage of being simple). XDIF (the DiscFerret storage format) can do either dump-type or mastering-type depending on what Tags and Blocks are present in the file. You can have a "TRAK" (track) block which contains a "SCPT" block and a bunch of "DATA" blocks -- that's a mastering script and data. Alternatively you can have TRAK, TINF (Track Info), and RDAT (Raw Data) blocks which would be a raw dump. >> don't seem overly keen to work with open-source teams outside of >> the UAE developers (what few are left). > > I am not sure where you heard that, because we are doing that right > now, and have been for some time (off and on for a few years in > fact). Hmm. I haven't seen (m)any emulators with IPF support -- AIUI, it's just UAE. > Our analyser constitutes several thousand hours of engineering effort > over the last 10 years, and comes out of many years of research and > development done before that, so to be completely honest with you, I > can't see us making that available for free any time soon. Fair enough. It would be nice to have some technical papers on the decoding engine, format-ID, and copy protection analysis engines though... I've read tons of stuff on Copylock, but it all boils down to "this is where you put a BPX to sniff the encryption key, and this is where you grab the decrypted gamecode." > The proof is in the pudding - you can try it yourself if you have > an ARM7 development board. Don't have one, don't want one. Not for one project, anyway. > We said from the start that source will be > available when everything is finished and we move out of beta, feel > free to complain then if it's not. :) I'm planning on making the DiscFerret API a little more universal across hardware. Maybe when the Kryoflux hardware is 'stable' I'll look into buying one of the finished boards and add support to the library. >> Also, I would pay good money to see a Kryoflux board imaging an MFM >> hard drive. The DiscFerret has had that feature from the get-go :) > > Sounds neat. :) We're coming very much from the preservation of > consumer software angle, and KryoFlux is primarily built to solve > problems in that area (we need it ourselves in this regard). Given > that we're aiming at common use-cases, I guess this is something that > might well stay unique to you - diversity in our solutions is a good > thing. I guess I'm going more for the sort of person that would buy a Catweasel, but wants to use it on more modern computer equipment, or image discs "on the go". Effectively something to solve this situation: 1. Bob has a computer (say, an obscure CP/M box) without a boot disc. 2. Alice has the bootdisc but needs it for her machine. 3. Alice can't duplicate the disc on her machine (say, because the machine is incapable of copying its own boot media) 4. Alice is, however, happy to allow Bob to visit with a floppy drive and a laptop to copy the disc himself. So Bob hops on a train with a laptop bag containing: A laptop A DiscFerret A power supply A cable kit A floppy drive. Bob visits Alice, copies her disc, tests his copy on her machine, then he can use the XDIF image to figure out: A) what the disc format is (NEC765, Amiga, H89, ...) B) the format parameters (sectors/track, tracks/surface, #surfaces) C) how to remaster it and make a 'better than new' copy So like the CAPS system, but with the 'analysis' side of things handed off to the users... If the user in question doesn't know how to create the image properly, they can pass the dump along to someone else to convert into, say an ImageDisk image, IMA file or whatever. The main thing that irks me about the CW is that Jens (Schoenfeld?) basically said "I'm done with this" and ditched it. The Linux drivers won't write discs on anything past Kernel 2.4, and IIRC the Windows drivers won't work on anything newer than Windows 98... that's pretty pathetic. Which is why I started working on the DiscFerret. Yes, the name is a subtle jab at the CW :) > I have to say that I'm a bit surprised to see the rather negative > sentiment in your post Phil, it's very different from the > conversations we have had with you. I don't really understand the > reasons for it, but perhaps we can all just try to get along? We're > all fighting on the same side after all. Well, in this instance I'll take a rather large helping of humble pie. I've got the wrong end of the stick, and for that I apologise. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jun 17 20:49:50 2010 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 18:49:50 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS disk emulator board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Still working on if off and on (ie slowly). I'm working through the verilog. The coding for the micro (AVR32) will be after that. Most of the unibus functionality I'm going to test on a memory/SLU/BootROM/LTC board first. A lot of the verilog will transfer over from that design. TTFN - Guy On Jun 17, 2010, at 5:38 PM, Julian Wolfe wrote: > Just curious, has anything been done with this? > > On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 9:40 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> >> On Mar 15, 2010, at 1:00 PM, Julian Wolfe wrote: >> >>> I'd really prefer RP emulation. This would allow use of older OS >> versions. >>> I'd also really prefer to see a UNIBUS version. >> >> I'm planning on doing one that'll handle all of the disk types found on >> Unibus PDP11s (ie no MSCP). The design is sketched out. It's just finding >> the time... >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto: >> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >>> On Behalf Of e.stiebler >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 6:50 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Solid State Disk replacement for RD53, 54, RK05, RL02/02 >>> >>> Rob Jarratt wrote: >>>> There was a thread recently on the comp.sys.dec newsgroup which ended up >>>> with the suggestion from David Riley that he would be prepared to build >> an >>>> FPGA-based board with a QBUS interface on one side and an SD interface >> on >>> >>> Is there really still interest in it ? >>> >>> I put my design away few years ago, as I didn't see anybody interested >>> enough to buy one. >>> There is the seasonal talk of it for sure, but ... >>> >>> OTOH, they old ones show up on ebay frequently, and they are not that >>> expensive. >>> >>> Remarks ? >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> >> >> > From evan at snarc.net Fri Jun 18 00:44:17 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 01:44:17 -0400 Subject: HOPE conference Message-ID: <4C1B07B1.6060402@snarc.net> Hi all -- For anyone attending next month's HOPE (Hackers On Planet Earth) conference in NYC, make sure you attend the vintage computing lecture on Saturday (7/17) by myself and Bill Degnan. We're scheduled for noon in the Lovelace room on the hotel's 18th floor. Topic is computer history of the local region. Also, if anyone is coming from way out-of-town, then ping me and we'll arrange tours of our computer museum here on the NJ shore. - Evan K. From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jun 17 14:40:53 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2010 14:40:53 -0500 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: <20100617121247.A61975@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> <4C198D1E.1080903@atarimuseum.com> <20100617121247.A61975@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >> I saw some photo's, there used to be an active ready Nike site in a > park > > >> area with apartments right across the street... and to think, some > Nike's > > >> were nuclear tipped too! Whoa... scarier to think of what all those sites could've done in the hands of modern day terrorists... From pnt1 at york.ac.uk Thu Jun 17 19:04:44 2010 From: pnt1 at york.ac.uk (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 01:04:44 +0100 Subject: So who'll be at VCF UK? Message-ID: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> I already said I will be there. I'm going sometime tomorrow (Friday) and I'll be there on Saturday at least. Anyone else staying in Bletchley on Friday night or Saturday? Fancy meeting up? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Jun 18 01:01:37 2010 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 07:01:37 +0100 Subject: So who'll be at VCF UK? In-Reply-To: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> References: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <1276840897.20665.10.camel@entasis> On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 01:04 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I already said I will be there. I'm going sometime tomorrow (Friday) > and I'll be there on Saturday at least. Anyone else staying in > Bletchley on Friday night or Saturday? Fancy meeting up? > I'll call over to set up my little System/360 display tonight (Friday) and I'll be there both days. Friday night I think there's a barbecue for exhibitors, and Saturday night I've got a ticket for OMD, but there should be a chance somewhere in there for a get-together. You should be able to find me there, otherwise try 07841-048948 - this goes for anyone attending; it will be nice to put faces to some names. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 18 04:14:47 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 10:14:47 +0100 Subject: So who'll be at VCF UK? In-Reply-To: <1276840897.20665.10.camel@entasis> References: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> <1276840897.20665.10.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <4C1B3907.30604@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Fri, 2010-06-18 at 01:04 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> I already said I will be there. I'm going sometime tomorrow (Friday) >> and I'll be there on Saturday at least. Anyone else staying in >> Bletchley on Friday night or Saturday? Fancy meeting up? >> > I'll call over to set up my little System/360 display tonight (Friday) > and I'll be there both days. I'm going to be there to setup tonight, and will be leaving sunday, I'll prolly be either with the Acorn people in the manor house (with my cloned Acorn Atom), or with the Dragon people in the big tent ! > Friday night I think there's a barbecue > for exhibitors, and Saturday night I've got a ticket for OMD, but there > should be a chance somewhere in there for a get-together. Heheh Yeah going to see OMD was one of the ways I convinced my wife that this would be a good thing to go to, especially as Monday is our aniversery :) Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Jun 18 05:24:43 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:24:43 +0100 Subject: So who'll be at VCF UK? In-Reply-To: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> References: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4C1B496B.5010200@gifford.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > I already said I will be there. I'm going sometime tomorrow (Friday) > and I'll be there on Saturday at least. Anyone else staying in > Bletchley on Friday night or Saturday? Fancy meeting up? I'm now packing up the car to go -- will be staying in MK for Friday/Saturday nights. Compukit UK101 forever! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 18 07:04:09 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:04:09 +0100 Subject: So who'll be at VCF UK? In-Reply-To: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> References: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4C1B60B9.9010307@philpem.me.uk> On 18/06/10 01:04, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I already said I will be there. I'm going sometime tomorrow (Friday) > and I'll be there on Saturday at least. Anyone else staying in Bletchley > on Friday night or Saturday? Fancy meeting up? I'll be there Saturday, most likely 11-5. Look out for a geeky-looking bloke with the dark glasses, camouflage trousers and XKCD "sudo make me a sandwich" T-shirt -- that's probably me :) Deciding which talks to attend is going to be "fun"... a few of the good ones conflict with each other. I'll be going to one of the two Tony Sale 'Colossus' talks for definite, not sure about the others (will have to Google the presenters and decide tonight). Anyone fancy sneaking a tape recorder into the Sophie Wilson talk on Sunday? I'd have liked to have seen that, but going down for both days isn't going to happen due to the ever-present "other commitments" :-( One of these days, I'll learn to answer questions like "can you fix this for me?" with something other than "yeah, sure, shouldn't be too hard!" (and on that day, Hell will freeze over, and Satan will go to work sporting a matched set of fluffy mittens, ice-skates and a winter coat!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jun 18 07:16:05 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 08:16:05 -0400 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> <4C198D1E.1080903@atarimuseum.com> <20100617121247.A61975@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C1B6385.1070807@atarimuseum.com> Actually Nike sites were guarded by some of the nastiest of german sheppards with the security patrols, in fact they would only listen to their handlers and no one else, they were trained to kill and nothing more, this was due to the fact that some nikes were nuclear tipped and the fear was Soviet infiltration of the Nike sites, its a shame we don't have even an ounce of that kind of paranoia from the Cold War left today in our military, we could use it. joe lobocki wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>>>> I saw some photo's, there used to be an active ready Nike site in a >>>>> >> park >> >>>>> area with apartments right across the street... and to think, some >>>>> >> Nike's >> >>>>> were nuclear tipped too! Whoa... >>>>> > > > scarier to think of what all those sites could've done in the hands of > modern day terrorists... > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 18 07:33:12 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 13:33:12 +0100 Subject: So who'll be at VCF UK? In-Reply-To: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> References: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 1:04 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I already said I will be there. ?I'm going sometime tomorrow (Friday) and > I'll be there on Saturday at least. ?Anyone else staying in Bletchley on > Friday night or Saturday? ?Fancy meeting up? I'll be there Saturday daytime and maybe Sunday, but I'm not staying over. I will probably wear my Amiga T-shirt on Saturday, as being at least peripherally relevant, but I have no idea what on Sunday. 6'2" chap, bespectacled, short dark hair & sideburns, usually dressed all in black. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jun 18 08:44:40 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:44:40 -0400 Subject: HOPE conference In-Reply-To: <4C1B07B1.6060402@snarc.net> References: <4C1B07B1.6060402@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C1B7848.6020607@verizon.net> On 6/18/2010 1:44 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Hi all -- > > For anyone attending next month's HOPE (Hackers On Planet Earth) > conference in NYC, make sure you attend the vintage computing lecture on > Saturday (7/17) by myself and Bill Degnan. We're scheduled for noon in > the Lovelace room on the hotel's 18th floor. Topic is computer history > of the local region. > > Also, if anyone is coming from way out-of-town, then ping me and we'll > arrange tours of our computer museum here on the NJ shore. > > - Evan K. Thanks for the heads up. I'll be there for sure. I think I've only missed one HOPE since they started in '94. Keith From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Jun 18 09:26:04 2010 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 14:26:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AW: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... In-Reply-To: References: <877073.84585.qm@web29104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <539630.88684.qm@web29118.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi Glen, last week-end, I had time to perform the diagonstics. The hardware jumpers were?the same as yours. There?were some differences regarding the NVRAM-settings of the QT13. The settings were adapted to the ones posted by you, but unfortunately, the result of the first read/write-test always stops with the error?"blank tape read", which is classified as a hard error. I made the test with two different QT13-boards, so apparently, there might be something wrong with the Fujitsu tape drive :( I tried different tapes, new as used ones, but it didn't help. I'll have to investigate so more work... Thanks alot again for giving through your setup of?your tape-subsystem. Kind regards, Pierre ?------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Glen Slick An: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Gesendet: Donnerstag, den 20. Mai 2010, 9:09:01 Uhr Betreff: Re: Fujitsu M2442AC tape drive and Emulex QT13 controller issues... On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 9:17 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > Lately, I?hooked?a M2442AC (which is basically the M2442A with an extra buffer) to a QT13-type coupler in a?microVAX, in order to save some tape contents to disk and CD-ROM. > > Therefore, I launched the NVRAM-internal diagnostics of the Emulex-controller. The manual of the controller points out the NVRAM-settings for some types of drives, but not for drives made by Fujitsu :( > The diagnostic tests, which can be run out of the diagnostics menu, all fail (except for "BOT/rewind"- and "host memory DMA"-tests) with the same error description: > > ** ERROR ** Blank tape read > I hooked my QT13 up to my M2444AC and installed the QT13 in a BA213 with a KA660 and ran the QT13 diagnostics in system console mode.? I had a scratch tape mounted in the M2444AC and all of the diagnostics completed successfully, which took 20-30 minutes.? The captured console output is listed below. The QT13 was configured with the following switch settings at power up.? SW-1 was toggled from OFF to ON and back to OFF just prior to the "ST 80" console command. SW1-1 OPEN(OFF)? away from PCB SW1-2 CLOSED(ON) near to PCB SW1-3 CLOSED(ON) near to PCB SW1-4 CLOSED(ON) near to PCB SW2-1 OFF SW2-2 OFF SW2-3 OFF SW2-4 OFF SW2-5 ON SW2-6 OFF SW2-7 ON??? SW2-8 OFF KA660-A V4.9, VMB 2.12 1) Dansk 2) Deutsch (Deutschland/?sterreich) 3) Deutsch (Schweiz) 4) English (United Kingdom) 5) English (United States/Canada) 6) Espa?ol 7) Fran?ais (Canada) 8) Fran?ais (France/Belgique) 9) Fran?ais (Suisse) 10) Italiano 11) Nederlands 12) Norsk 13) Portugu?s 14) Suomi 15) Svenska (1..15): 5 Performing normal system tests. 95..94..93..92..91..90..89..88..87..86..85..84..83..82..81..80.. 79..78..77..76..75..74..73..72..71..70..69..68..67..66..65..64.. 63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..55..54..53..52..51..50..49..48.. 47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32.. 31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16.. 15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07..06..05..04..03.. Tests completed. >>>SHOW QBUS Scan of Qbus I/O Space -20001468 (772150) = 0000 RQDX3/KDA50/RRD50/RQC25/KFQSA-DISK -2000146A (772152) = 0B20 -20001940 (774500) = 0000 TQK50/TQK70/TU81E/RV20/KFQSA-TAPE -20001942 (774502) = 8051 -20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR Scan of Qbus Memory Space >>>D/P/W 20001F40 20 >>>D/P/L 20088000 80000000 >>>D/P/L 20088004 80000001 >>>ST 80 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *****? *****? EMULEX CORPORATION ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? * *? ? ? 3545 Harbor Boulevard ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ***** * *****? P.O. Box 6725 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? * *? ? ? Costa Mesa, CA, 92626 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? *****? *****? (714) 662-5600 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? E M U L E X ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? QT13/14 Firmware Revision K ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Copyright 1988 EMULEX CORPORATION ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? All rights reserved ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Unit is Offline? ? ? ? ? CSR Address = 174500 oct ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Video Display or Hardcopy Terminal? (V/H,def=H) : H ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? MAIN MENU ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ========= A - All tests R - Retry limit value N - NOVRAM Maintenance T - Test selection Menu S - Display Switch settings Q - Quick test on positioning and erase X - Exit Maintenance mode after resetting switches CTRL/C - Returns you to the previous level CTRL/U - Deletes current input if no entered Select Function? (def=A) : S ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Functions selected by indicated switch settings ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ----------------------------------------------- Switch 1 Off On _______ |? ? ? | | [? ] | - 1 --- QT13/14 Tape coupler reset switch, Unreadable Hardware switch | [? *] | - 2 --- Diagnostic mode | [? *] | - 3 --- Host console communications | [? *] | - 4 --- uVAX host |? ? ? | ------- ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Functions selected by indicated switch settings ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ----------------------------------------------- Switch 2 Off On _______ |? ? ? | | [*? ] | - 1 -| | [*? ] | - 2 -|- Address = 174500 oct | [*? ] | - 3 -| | [*? ] | - 4 --- TMSCP | [? *] | - 5 --- Enable 22 bit addressing | [? ] | - 6 --- WDS Trailing edge select, Unreadable Hardware switch | [? ] | - 7 --- WDS Leading edge select, Unreadable Hardware switch | [? ] | - 8 --- Not used, Unreadable Hardware switch |? ? ? | ------- ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? MAIN MENU ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ========= A - All tests R - Retry limit value N - NOVRAM Maintenance T - Test selection Menu S - Display Switch settings Q - Quick test on positioning and erase X - Exit Maintenance mode after resetting switches CTRL/C - Returns you to the previous level CTRL/U - Deletes current input if no entered Select Function? (def=A) : N Drive type, 0=Start-Stop, 1=Streamer (0-1,def=1 dec) : On the fly commands (Y/N,def=Y) : Enable data busy timeout delay? (Y/N,def=Y) : Remote density (Y/N,def=Y) : CDC tape drive (Y/N,def=Y) : Use IDEN line to select remote density (Y/N,def=N) : IDEN line true selects high density (Y/N,def=N) : Adaptive DMA (Y/N,def=Y) : Blank Tape Timeout value, in seconds (1-60,def=5 dec) : Max retry count for tape errors (0-10,def=8 dec) : uSec Delay between DMA bursts (2/4,def=4) : Enable write data prefill (Y/N,def=N) : Adaptive DMA threshold (1-7,def=4 dec) : Tape Drive Speed thousands of bytes/second (0-65535,def=200 dec) : Support? 800 BPI Density (Y/N,def=N) : Support 1600 BPI Density (Y/N,def=Y) : Support 6250 BPI Density (Y/N,def=Y) : Modify ?? (Y/N,def=N) : ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? MAIN MENU ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ========= A - All tests R - Retry limit value N - NOVRAM Maintenance T - Test selection Menu S - Display Switch settings Q - Quick test on positioning and erase X - Exit Maintenance mode after resetting switches CTRL/C - Returns you to the previous level CTRL/U - Deletes current input if no entered Select Function? (def=A) : A Ensure tape loaded and at BOT Press to continue...[0K * WARNING *, Use scratch tape only, data on tape will be lost Are you sure ?? (Y/N,def=N) : Y Enter number of loops to execute (0-255,def=1 dec) : 1 Retry limit of 10 --> Start of pass 1 BOT/Rewind test Write/Read test File mark test Space forward/reverse test Positioning test Erase test Host memory DMA test --> End of pass 1 Executing pass 1 Test Summary: ? Total # of errors = 0 (0 Hard, 0 Soft, 0 Device, 0 DMA) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 18 10:50:58 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:50:58 -0400 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: <4C1B6385.1070807@atarimuseum.com> References: <4C18E56F.16475.1666C49@cclist.sydex.com> <4C19776B.5070503@atarimuseum.com> <4C198D1E.1080903@atarimuseum.com> <20100617121247.A61975@shell.lmi.net> <4C1B6385.1070807@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Actually Nike sites were guarded by some of the nastiest of german sheppards > with the security patrols, in fact they would only listen to their handlers > and no one else, they were trained to kill and nothing more, this was due to > the fact that some nikes were nuclear tipped and the fear was Soviet > infiltration of the Nike sites, its a shame we don't have even an ounce of > that kind of paranoia from the Cold War left today in our military, we could > use it. There are plenty of places in the US, mostly out West, where the German Shepherds with give your balls the same royal treatment. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 18 11:22:53 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 10:22:53 -0600 Subject: ebay nike miltope 8" floppy drive NOS #310225342321 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:50:58 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > There are plenty of places in the US, mostly out West, where the > German Shepherds with give your balls the same royal treatment. Two guesses at places with this level of security: Nellis and Dugway. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 18 16:17:36 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:17:36 +0100 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) In-Reply-To: <8E5CEB52-F41E-438B-9D1B-D93DC4C4495F@acpsuperstore.com> References: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> <8E5CEB52-F41E-438B-9D1B-D93DC4C4495F@acpsuperstore.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Dave Freeman wrote: > What is the agenda? > Speakers? > Is this on a website? http://tinyurl.com/37kfqtg :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From evan at snarc.net Fri Jun 18 16:25:12 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:25:12 -0400 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) In-Reply-To: References: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> <8E5CEB52-F41E-438B-9D1B-D93DC4C4495F@acpsuperstore.com> Message-ID: <4C1BE438.7020902@snarc.net> > On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Dave Freeman > wrote: >> What is the agenda? >> Speakers? >> Is this on a website? Presumably, in the near future, VCF Midwest will appear on http://www.vintage.org/events.php ... why the UK crew didn't also use the traditional VCF site is beyond me. From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Jun 18 18:04:31 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 00:04:31 +0100 Subject: So who'll be at VCF UK? In-Reply-To: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> References: <4C1AB81C.9010701@york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4C1BFB7F.7020101@mac.com> On 06/18/2010 01:04, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I already said I will be there. I'm going sometime tomorrow (Friday) > and I'll be there on Saturday at least. Anyone else staying in > Bletchley on Friday night or Saturday? Fancy meeting up? > I will be there on Sunday, Mrs hasn't allowed me out to play until i've done my chores!! :-( roger From lists at softpres.org Fri Jun 18 18:41:05 2010 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 00:41:05 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1ACF01.8060203@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> <4C1ACF01.8060203@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi Phil, I didn't want to make a big deal of all this, but let me just publically answer some of the things you mention here. On 18 Jun 2010, at 02:42, Philip Pemberton wrote: > 1) A couple of months ago I had a look at the first 'ticket' / thread I > started with you. As I recall that's basically showing "ticket closed, > content not visible." -- Annoying, there was some useful info in there > and I don't have the confirmation emails. Interesting, it seems the exact message you get is, "Ticket is closed, please create a new ticket". I forgot it did that. I guess we just thought that since people receive all the information in emails, there wasn't much point keeping it around (it was from 2007). If you lost those emails, surely you could just have created a new ticket to ask us to resend that information? Anyway, I guess this has been sorted out now. > 2) The sheer lack of info in the WIPs. For instance, the stuff that > introduces Freeform. How about a couple of example Freeform scripts? > Maybe the text or a PDF of the Amiga DevCon notes mentioned? Lack of info in the WIPs? I'm not sure what you mean... Over the years we have posted over 1.5 Mb of text (in wiki markup) about what we have been doing, totalling nearly 90,000 words, and that is just the technical WIP reports - it doesn't include any news/knowledge base/glossary/article posts. I doubt very much many technical projects have documented their progress nearly as much as we have. We also went into a huge amount of detail about our format description language, and how it worked in this WIP: http://www.softpres.org/wip:2002-07-18. This includes explanations of all the core concepts, a format example, and a line-by-line breakdown explaining exactly what that example does. This seems to be the one you're talking about, so I am not sure how you missed that. I should say that our technology has changed a lot since 2002, but many of the more basic principles are explained there. Lack of info is not something I think we can be accused of. > > Maybe your > > comment above "we can't tell you" (I don't think we said that?) > > I don't think you said it in as many words, but I got the impression of > SPS having something of a "secret society" aspect to it. A lot of the It's certainly not intended to be. Maybe we're perceived as such because we do not have a forum on our site? > more technical information (for instance, I'd like to know a little more > about how Copylock works and how you can read an RNCL track and get the > checksum or take the checksum and remaster the track) seems to be "under > lock and key" so to speak. We didn't post it at that time mostly because of concern about laws against making reverse-engineering information about copy protection public. This is exactly why source code dealing in copy protection for Cedega/WineX, Daemon Tools, and similar tools have never been available - it would be illegal to do so. That was one of the reasons we put off making source available. We don't worry so much about this on such obsolete media these days, especially since exemptions were added to the DMCA thanks to work done by Stanford and the Internet Archive, among others. What you seem to want, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, is for us to go to a great deal of effort to document the painstaking research we have done over many years and thousands of hours, so you can have a look at it. I understand why you might be interested in that information, but virtually nobody asks for it (actually none that I can think of apart from you), and our priorities firmly lie with spending our time on the preservation aspects that affect everybody. Very likely we're already "too late" for many games as it is. > Ah. I got the impression (from the WIPs) that DRAFT had been implemented > in the Kryoflux design already... No, it's currently just a concept in our heads. It's a simple thing though, we just haven't got round to implementing it yet. > Wasn't the original reason "we don't want badly-made IPFs floating > around the internet and ruining our reputation" or something like that? > > (If not.. well, it's the impression *I* got). That was a minor reason, and only important when we were started producing IPF files. If you read the knowledge base article (http://softpres.org/faq:general:open_source) on the subject, you can see that it comes under "other reasons" right at the bottom of the page. Also, note the title of that page: "Will you release the file format and/or source code for handling IPF files in the future?" and the first line is: "Yes, absolutely. To not do would be rather flawed preservation." > > We wanted to do a few > > other things first (like being able to show that an image really > > comes from us), > > Distribute it with a GnuPG signature file and put your GnuPG key on the > keyservers. Problem solved. Yes, that is the generally the sort of thing we planned, except our public key would be part of the IPF library, and we would expose that information to emulators. It's not a huge amount of work, but it takes more time away from preservation activity, and so has been a low priority. Anyway, I've already said we're going to delay signing IPF files. It's something that can be done afterwards. Even better, maybe somebody will contribute that code. > > I should state here (as we have confused people on this before), that > > IPF is a *mastering* format. It is similar to how Trace prepared disk > > data for writing, where they had the disk data but also scripts > > describing checksums, data formats, protection, etc. - since you need > > to know how to write the data (especially copy protection) for it to > > be reliable (or of course work at all, for some types of protection). > > I was working on something similar for the "write" side of the > DiscFerret. It's more or less ground to a halt though; I wanted to have > a look at Freeform, but hit a brick wall: the hardware is NLA, and even > the last company that's supporting Trace kit doesn't seem to mention the > Unix-box-and-autoloader duplicators, just the tin-box all-in-one units. It probably wouldn't help you much anyway to be honest. Freeform had limits to what you can do with it, and a design based on it wouldn't be as flexibile as it could/should be. I have to ask... Do you realise the scale of the work you are proposing to implement? We spent *years* figuring out all the complexities involved in that properly, with many hours a day, virtually every day, spent on it. It's not exactly something you can do as a "hobby" project IMO. There also hundreds and hundreds of disk formats out there (and that's just for personal computers). Are you intending to reverse engineer them all? Fortunately, we are rather obsessive about such things. Maybe you do plan to do all that, but I just thought I'd mention it! :) > > It is designed for writing, and that is basically what happens when > > an IPF tracks are loaded in an emulator (just not to a physical disk > > of course). IPF is a very different thing to a dump format, and I > > would say that for most non-preservation purposes a dump format is > > fine (and also has the advantage of being simple). > > XDIF (the DiscFerret storage format) can do either dump-type or > mastering-type depending on what Tags and Blocks are present in the > file. You can have a "TRAK" (track) block which contains a "SCPT" block > and a bunch of "DATA" blocks -- that's a mastering script and data. > Alternatively you can have TRAK, TINF (Track Info), and RDAT (Raw Data) > blocks which would be a raw dump. Maybe you should consider making the dump format and mastering format separate? Or at the very least separate by file extension. It is bound to confuse people even more if they are in the same file. We tried to be clear amount it, and called them two very different things, and many people still got confused. Either we weren't very clear, or it's just hard to understand, perhaps both. From what you're saying, it seems from this that you're trying to duplicate the work we have done with our analyser and IPF? Is that why you are so insistent about us documenting and supplying so many more details of our research? > >> don't seem overly keen to work with open-source teams outside of > >> the UAE developers (what few are left). > > > > I am not sure where you heard that, because we are doing that right > > now, and have been for some time (off and on for a few years in > > fact). > > Hmm. I haven't seen (m)any emulators with IPF support -- AIUI, it's just > UAE. I'm really not sure what you're getting at. How many IPF images do you think there are that are not exclusively for the Amiga? I just checked - there are only eight, and they were only given to contributors 10 days ago. So, what you're really asking is: Why are there no publically released emulators that support those 8 IPF files that were created 10 days ago? :)) We been working on multi-system support for a few years. KryoFlux was a diversion that took us away from continuing that work because we realised we needed it to continue. Many of the emulator authors we were talking to at the time basically said, "come back when you have something for me to play with", and so we did. > > Our analyser constitutes several thousand hours of engineering effort > > over the last 10 years, and comes out of many years of research and > > development done before that, so to be completely honest with you, I > > can't see us making that available for free any time soon. > > Fair enough. It would be nice to have some technical papers on the > decoding engine, format-ID, and copy protection analysis engines > though... I've read tons of stuff on Copylock, but it all boils down to > "this is where you put a BPX to sniff the encryption key, and this is > where you grab the decrypted gamecode." Maybe you have far more time than we do. For us, time spent doing things like that is time away from preservation activities. Maybe you'd find it interesting to work Copylock out yourself? Not only would it be informative, you'd able to use an IPF (e.g. Batman) and see what the game code does under emulation... BTW, we only need to decrypt Copylock in order to check the integrity of that track. The IPF contains the original encrypted data and the copy protection intact. > > We said from the start that source will be > > available when everything is finished and we move out of beta, feel > > free to complain then if it's not. > > :) > I'm planning on making the DiscFerret API a little more universal across > hardware. Maybe when the Kryoflux hardware is 'stable' I'll look into > buying one of the finished boards and add support to the library. KryoFlux is rock solid - that was a core design constraint. Being in beta does not imply it is unstable, it just implies that we have not finished testing and that we make no guarantees. Our host software and firmware, as detailed in the WIPs, is almost entirely hardware independent, with only a very thin layer of hardware specific code in the firmware. It would of course, as you obviously realise, be entirely pointless to make a project like this and have it locked into a hardware platform that might become legacy in the future. We aimed to fix this problem for the long term. This is all detailed in the WIPs. > I guess I'm going more for the sort of person that would buy a > Catweasel, but wants to use it on more modern computer equipment, or > image discs "on the go". Effectively something to solve this situation: > 1. Bob has a computer (say, an obscure CP/M box) without a boot disc. > 2. Alice has the bootdisc but needs it for her machine. > 3. Alice can't duplicate the disc on her machine (say, because the > machine is incapable of copying its own boot media) > 4. Alice is, however, happy to allow Bob to visit with a floppy drive > and a laptop to copy the disc himself. > > So Bob hops on a train with a laptop bag containing: > A laptop > A DiscFerret > A power supply > A cable kit > A floppy drive. > > Bob visits Alice, copies her disc, tests his copy on her machine, then > he can use the XDIF image to figure out: > A) what the disc format is (NEC765, Amiga, H89, ...) > B) the format parameters (sectors/track, tracks/surface, #surfaces) Sounds good. KryoFlux does all of that now. > C) how to remaster it and make a 'better than new' copy I rather disagree with that. Unless classic old Bob has some very specific knowledge about magnetic recording, disk formats and copy protection, the best you can do is attempt a "best effort" auto-detection of what is on the disk. Anything outside of usual parameters (probably be okay if it's not a game), and you just can't give that with any real certainty. It might be "good enough" for many people, but I would strongly argue it is not good enough for preservation. We are planning to enable people to dump disks and write them back, but we need to make clear when they do so that there really are no guarantees. It's strictly done on a best-effort basis, which might be fine for standard disks (as long as you are unconcerned about authenticity). We will say that if people want a reliable disk, they would need to write one using a verified game from an IPF file - being a mastering format, it is exactly what it was designed for. > So like the CAPS system, but with the 'analysis' side of things handed > off to the users... If the user in question doesn't know how to create > the image properly, they can pass the dump along to someone else to > convert into, say an ImageDisk image, IMA file or whatever. That sounds good in principle, and I'm sure people will find it useful, but how do they know if an image file can be created or not? It might appear to work, but the purpose of many types of copy protection is to stay hidden, and it is an extremely non-trivial problem to detect such cases. That is what we worked on for years... and it's still not a entirely an automated process. We have built the tools to make it easier for a knowledgable person to do, and that was still a massive amount of work. Disks produced by a end-user driven method are more likely to be broken, and it may not be found out until the physical disks are dead. > The main thing that irks me about the CW is that Jens (Schoenfeld?) basically said "I'm done with this" and ditched it. The Linux drivers won't write discs on anything past Kernel 2.4, and IIRC the Windows drivers won't work on anything newer than Windows 98... that's pretty pathetic. Which is why I started working on the DiscFerret. Yes, the name is a subtle jab at the CW :) AFAIK, Catweasel works on XP (at least in 32-bit mode). > > I have to say that I'm a bit surprised to see the rather negative > > sentiment in your post Phil, it's very different from the > > conversations we have had with you. I don't really understand the > > reasons for it, but perhaps we can all just try to get along? We're > > all fighting on the same side after all. > > Well, in this instance I'll take a rather large helping of humble pie. > I've got the wrong end of the stick, and for that I apologise. Thanks, I appreciate that. I still detect some subtle negativity in this post, but perhaps it is to be expected if you see your product in some way in competition with ours. Do please notice how I haven't said anything about DiscFerret unless it has been either something positive, or some advice. Kieron From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 18 19:00:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> <4C1ACF01.8060203@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 19 Jun 2010, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > IMO. There also hundreds and hundreds of disk formats out there (and Certainly well over 3000 > that's just for personal computers). Are you intending to reverse > engineer them all? I analyzed a bunch of them, and implemented 400 of the ones that I analyzed in XenoCopy. That did NOT include studies of the inter-sector gaps, and other issues irrelevant to file transfer, but did include analysis of the file system and directory parameters and structures. Chuck seems to have done substantially more. > things. Maybe you do plan to do all that, but I just thought I'd mention > it! :) May we all live so long! Can it be done as anything OTHER than a hobby project? There certainly doesn't seem to be enough economic incentive to put in that much work. I kept at it for years after it no longer paid the bills. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 18 19:32:30 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 19:32:30 -0500 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) In-Reply-To: <4C1BE438.7020902@snarc.net> References: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> <8E5CEB52-F41E-438B-9D1B-D93DC4C4495F@acpsuperstore.com> <4C1BE438.7020902@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Presumably, in the near future, VCF Midwest will appear on > http://www.vintage.org/events.php ... why the UK crew didn't also use the > traditional VCF site is beyond me. Yes, keep an eye out there, and also at http://vcfmw.org. More details coming soon! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 18 20:18:37 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:18:37 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> <4C1ACF01.8060203@philpem.me.uk> <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C1C1AED.3070707@bitsavers.org> On 6/18/10 5:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Can it be done as anything OTHER than a hobby project? > There certainly doesn't seem to be enough economic incentive to put in > that much work. I kept at it for years after it no longer paid the bills. > The worlds archives are slowly waking up to the fact that digital preservation is a problem. To be honest, though, I don't see very many people going to the trouble of saving much of anything before 1980. I am very surprised no one from Stanford (Henry Lowood) or the European KEEP project has ever contacted them about details, since they are all working on preservation of copy-protected games. he also wrote: > I would say that for most non-preservation purposes a dump format is fine (and also has the advantage of being simple). As software curator at the Computer History Museum and someone who is responsible for data recovery and preservation of our software collection, "dump" format is perfectly adequate for anything that has not been deliberately crippled by copy protection. They happen to be working on preserving a part of the computing world that was consciously made difficult to preserve. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 18 20:22:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:22:39 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, , <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C1BB96F.28912.22A40DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2010 at 17:00, Fred Cisin wrote: > Chuck seems to have done substantially more. I agree with Fred--format varieties number in the thousands. There are some that I haven't managed to crack yet (lack of Rosetta stone mostly). For example, how about extracting documents in Hebrew from a Compugraphic typesetter floppy? Today I got a box of floppies in that someone had obviously simply gleaned from the back corner of their closet. A mix of 5.25 and 3.5; most are PC-based (DOS/Win), but there 400K and 800K Mac floppies in their as well as the 1.44MB type--one or two I can't quite identify yet. The 5.25" variety is a mix of densities from PC and various CP/M systems. But at least they were from personal computers--that makes them easy. What no one realizes is that "computers" in the sense of "personal computers" are just the tip of the iceberg. While they may represent the bulk of floppies in existence, they don't represent the variety of variations in filesystems, encodings or layouts. Most of the details of those dedicated systems (say, from someone's PBX) remain unknown to the current day. There are some people lurking who have knowledge of certain file formats (e.g. embroidery machines) who can assist in translating the data to something meaningful. But often, the best you can get is "this is what the machine does when you feed it this diskette". What complicates things even more is that very often, the equipment that created these things no longer exists in any form. You've got a disk and maybe, if you're very lucky, a photo of the system or a users' manual. If anyone wants to try their hand at it, I can send a time-domain (i.e. Catweasel) sample of a Lanier 32-sector M2FM (as best I can determine it) WP disk. You have only to figure out the character set, file system, floppy encoding and file format... --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 18 20:53:26 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 18:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1C1AED.3070707@bitsavers.org> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> <4C1ACF01.8060203@philpem.me.uk> <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> <4C1C1AED.3070707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/18/10 5:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Can it be done as anything OTHER than a hobby project? >> There certainly doesn't seem to be enough economic incentive to put in >> that much work. I kept at it for years after it no longer paid the bills. >> > > The worlds archives are slowly waking up to the fact that digital > preservation > is a problem. To be honest, though, I don't see very many people going to the > trouble of saving much of anything before 1980. > > I am very surprised no one from Stanford (Henry Lowood) or the European KEEP > project has ever contacted them about details, since they are all working on > preservation of copy-protected games. > The Library of Congress contacted me a while back asking for permission to archive the retroarchive.org site. That just blew my mind. (I told them it was ok) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jun 18 21:34:19 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 21:34:19 -0500 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) In-Reply-To: References: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> <8E5CEB52-F41E-438B-9D1B-D93DC4C4495F@acpsuperstore.com> <4C1BE438.7020902@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Jason T wrote: > Yes, keep an eye out there, and also at http://vcfmw.org. ?More > details coming soon! Also, for you kids on The Face Book these days, there is a group for VCF-MW there: http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=137065072974225&ref=ts From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 18 22:18:02 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 20:18:02 -0700 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: <4C1671F1.3020607@softjar.se> Message-ID: At 3:17 PM +1000 6/17/10, Nigel Williams wrote: >This is great! thanks for taking the time to chase this down. No problem, it is good to get knowledge about devices where very little is known out there. Now for an interesting bit of info. Apparently there are two different types of Firmware. One for the PDP-11, and one for VAXen. I'll see if I can get a little bit more info on that. Now for the important part, the whole manual. http://www.avanthar.com/~healyzh/RQZX1.pdf Looking through the list of supported hardware I see where this is a board that is of use to very few Hobbyists. It is interesting that the older versions of the OS's can't support it, when they support something like a Viking QDT just fine. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jun 19 00:20:09 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 22:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: joining cctalk Message-ID: I referred someone to this mailing list, but he's unable to join. The server says that he needs to wait to be approved, but nothing happens. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Jun 18 11:43:07 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 11:43:07 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) Message-ID: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> Vintage Computer Festival comes to Chicago! The fifth edition of VCF Midwest will take place in Chicago (OK, Lombard is a suburb) this fall - join us on September 18 in conjunction with ECCC as we once again coax vintage electrons into motion. The show will run from 8:00 AM on Saturday on into the night, coming to an official close at 1:00 AM Sunday morning. Early setup will be available on Friday evening from 5-6:30 PM, at which time the exhibition area will be locked until the show opens on Saturday morning. In addition to exhibitions of eclectic electronica, we will feature speakers, vendors and a Vince Briel workshop (come ready to homebrew!). Admission is FREE to all whether you come to show, look, build, talk or sell. Exhibitor and session info to follow shortly, but save the date NOW! Join us! Jack Rubin chiclassiccomp Rooms are available at a reduced rate at the adjoining Fairfield Inn. Ask for "ECCC" or "vintage computer" rates. http://marriott.com/property/propertypage/CHIFS Our Facebook Page - http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=137065072974225 ************************************************************** Please feel free to share this information with others who might be interested. Thank you. From dfreeman at acpsuperstore.com Fri Jun 18 11:50:16 2010 From: dfreeman at acpsuperstore.com (Dave Freeman) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:50:16 -0700 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) In-Reply-To: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> References: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> Message-ID: <8E5CEB52-F41E-438B-9D1B-D93DC4C4495F@acpsuperstore.com> What is the agenda? Speakers? Is this on a website? On Jun 18, 2010, at 9:43 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival comes to Chicago! > > The fifth edition of VCF Midwest will take place in Chicago (OK, > Lombard is > a suburb) this fall - join us on September 18 in conjunction with > ECCC as we > once again coax vintage electrons into motion. > > The show will run from 8:00 AM on Saturday on into the night, coming > to an > official close at 1:00 AM Sunday morning. Early setup will be > available on > Friday evening from 5-6:30 PM, at which time the exhibition area > will be > locked until the show opens on Saturday morning. > > In addition to exhibitions of eclectic electronica, we will feature > speakers, vendors and a Vince Briel workshop (come ready to > homebrew!). > > Admission is FREE to all whether you come to show, look, build, talk > or > sell. > > Exhibitor and session info to follow shortly, but save the date NOW! > > Join us! > > Jack Rubin > chiclassiccomp > > Rooms are available at a reduced rate at the adjoining Fairfield > Inn. Ask > for "ECCC" or "vintage computer" rates. > http://marriott.com/property/propertypage/CHIFS > > Our Facebook Page - > http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=137065072974225 > > ************************************************************** > > Please feel free to share this information with others who might be > interested. Thank you. > > > __._,_.___ > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New > Topic > Messages in this topic (2) > RECENT ACTIVITY: New Members 1 New Files 14 > Visit Your Group > MARKETPLACE > Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're > on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now. > > > Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers > Center. > > > Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! > Explore new interests. > > > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use > . > > __,_._,___ From lists at softpres.org Sat Jun 19 03:57:15 2010 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 09:57:15 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> <4C1ACF01.8060203@philpem.me.uk> <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 19 Jun 2010, at 01:00, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jun 2010, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: >> IMO. There also hundreds and hundreds of disk formats out there (and > Certainly well over 3000 I don't doubt it. It probably depends on how you are counting though. I tend to count the huge number of variations of "generic MFM" controllers as "one" main format, because we have software that intelligently handles it as such using automated scripting. That view may stem from our origins in Amiga game formats, where most are completely and utterly different. We're also not doing file recovery, and so don't need to deal with filesystem-level formats, see below. > >> that's just for personal computers). Are you intending to reverse >> engineer them all? > > I analyzed a bunch of them, and implemented 400 of the ones that I > analyzed in XenoCopy. That did NOT include studies of the inter-sector > gaps, and other issues irrelevant to file transfer, but did include > analysis of the file system and directory parameters and structures. > Chuck seems to have done substantially more. Nice! Actually, you and Chuck seem have a far more difficult job than we do in that regard. We're not doing file recovery, so we don't tend to need to look at lookup tables or anything. We're just interested in producing disk images that can be verified by any integrity information we can find (and we don't mark them as done until we do). Given our focus on software for personal computers, we can fortunately leave that to emulators. We do indeed do analysis of inter-sector and inter-track gaps, because some types of copy protection use those areas. > Can it be done as anything OTHER than a hobby project? > There certainly doesn't seem to be enough economic incentive to put in > that much work. I kept at it for years after it no longer paid the bills. I meant it isn't a hobby in the sense that you can do for a few hours a week at your leisure. I think it would have to be termed more of an obsession, or unpaid work, than a hobby. :) Kieron From lists at softpres.org Sat Jun 19 04:12:47 2010 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:12:47 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1BB96F.28912.22A40DA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, , <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> <4C1BB96F.28912.22A40DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0167C013-86EB-429D-B188-F2D3FAC2A0F5@softpres.org> On 19 Jun 2010, at 02:22, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I agree with Fred--format varieties number in the thousands. There > are some that I haven't managed to crack yet (lack of Rosetta stone > mostly). For example, how about extracting documents in Hebrew from > a Compugraphic typesetter floppy? Yes, as I said to Fred, I think we have it easy in that regard because we are only dealing with personal computer formats, and are not doing file-level recovery. It is certainly the case that "secure" (verified) disk imaging is rather a different problem to meaningful information recovery. > What no one realizes is that "computers" in the sense of "personal > computers" are just the tip of the iceberg. While they may represent Yes, I don't doubt that is the case. We are fortunate in that we don't tend to deal with file systems, and we don't deal with file formats. Dealing with personal computers means we can rely on emulators for that side of things. We're all about producing authentic disk images from the media into at least a form that is easier to backup (i.e. onto modern storage systems). It's certainly nice to talk to people who do do that though! I don't envy you, but I'm sure it's interesting and gratifying work (?) > the bulk of floppies in existence, they don't represent the variety > of variations in filesystems, encodings or layouts. Most of the > details of those dedicated systems (say, from someone's PBX) remain > unknown to the current day. There are some people lurking who have > knowledge of certain file formats (e.g. embroidery machines) who can > assist in translating the data to something meaningful. But often, > the best you can get is "this is what the machine does when you feed > it this diskette". Ouch. > What complicates things even more is that very often, the equipment > that created these things no longer exists in any form. You've got a > disk and maybe, if you're very lucky, a photo of the system or a > users' manual. > > If anyone wants to try their hand at it, I can send a time-domain > (i.e. Catweasel) sample of a Lanier 32-sector M2FM (as best I can > determine it) WP disk. You have only to figure out the character > set, file system, floppy encoding and file format... Nasty. Might as well be a cryptanalysist for that sort of thing! I wonder if some statistical-based analysis would help, but perhaps you are way ahead of me on that? Kieron From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 19 11:07:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 09:07:59 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <0167C013-86EB-429D-B188-F2D3FAC2A0F5@softpres.org> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <4C1BB96F.28912.22A40DA@cclist.sydex.com>, <0167C013-86EB-429D-B188-F2D3FAC2A0F5@softpres.org> Message-ID: <4C1C88EF.13343.256FDC@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2010 at 10:12, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > Yes, as I said to Fred, I think we have it easy in that regard because > we are only dealing with personal computer formats, and are not doing > file-level recovery. It is certainly the case that "secure" (verified) > disk imaging is rather a different problem to meaningful information > recovery. You're dealing with *common* personal computer formats. Anyone want to take a crack at a diskette from a Durango F-85? Since I've got the machine here, I'd be happy to create a sample 5.25" for them to play with. > It's certainly nice to talk to people who do do that though! I don't > envy you, but I'm sure it's interesting and gratifying work (?) It is interesting and gratifying in a way that we help recover long- lost data and it keeps the mind occupied. It's really a shame that the Dead Media Project seemed to be just a flash in the pan. > Nasty. Might as well be a cryptanalysist for that sort of thing! I > wonder if some statistical-based analysis would help, but perhaps you > are way ahead of me on that? We've certainly decoded word-processor floppies using letter- frequency analysis on more recent (e.g. 80s). There were several typewriters, for example that stored their documents using daisy- wheel position codes. GCR ordering can sometimes be decoded by looking for clues, such as sector headers. Fortunately, most non-PC filesystems are fairly simple. --Chuck From shumaker at att.net Sat Jun 19 11:43:23 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:43:23 -0400 Subject: joining cctalk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1CF3AB.5070201@att.net> This has also occurred to me twice in the past year. In both cases, they eventually quit trying... A pity since one of them was Bruce Damer of the DigiBarn Steve Shumaker On 6/19/2010 1:20 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I referred someone to this mailing list, but he's unable to join. The > server says that he needs to wait to be approved, but nothing happens. > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 12:44:53 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 17:44:53 +0000 Subject: Post-VCF GB drink Message-ID: <4c1d0285.13125e0a.50b4.ffff832c@mx.google.com> If there're any VCF people about, a few of us are in the Park Hotel for a pint. MK2 2SN - just past the railway bridge. Sent from my Nokia phone From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 19 12:21:42 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:21:42 +0100 Subject: joining cctalk References: Message-ID: <013801cb0fd9$0479c480$026e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Ahh, but did it specify the length of time he had to wait?! How long has he waited so far? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 6:20 AM Subject: joining cctalk > > I referred someone to this mailing list, but he's unable to join. The > server says that he needs to wait to be approved, but nothing happens. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 19 13:19:58 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> <4C1ACF01.8060203@philpem.me.uk> <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100619105558.O33720@shell.lmi.net> > >> IMO. There also hundreds and hundreds of disk formats out there (and > > Certainly well over 3000 On Sat, 19 Jun 2010, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > I don't doubt it. It probably depends on how you are counting though. I > tend to count the huge number of variations of "generic MFM" controllers > as "one" main format, because we have software that intelligently > handles it as such using automated scripting. That view may stem from > our origins in Amiga game formats, where most are completely and utterly > different. We're also not doing file recovery, and so don't need to deal > with filesystem-level formats, see below. OK We can certainly agree to call the IBM/WD MFM (barring weirdnesses) to be a category of format. For your purposes, duplicating/storing/analyzing the physical format data, all that would be relevant among those would be "density", number of cylinders, number of sides, number of sectors per track, and bytes per sector. Typical weirdnesses would include such things as unconventional sector headers (invalid cylinder, head, sector numbering), different physical formats on different tracks, abnormal gap sizes and content, etc. You also get to deal with all of the non- IBM/WD style sectors. Chuck and I are involved in extracting the information from within the data. (and none of us are involved in looking for the knowledge withing the information.) > producing disk images that can be verified by any integrity information > we can find (and we don't mark them as done until we do). Given our Hmmmm. If you needed a third party objective test, . . . Make two copies. Give the original and the two copies to a hacker who would attempt to identify which one of the three disks is the original. One of OUR tests is to transfer a file, transfer it back, and do a byte level comparison. > We do indeed do analysis of inter-sector and inter-track gaps, because > some types of copy protection use those areas. The Amiga certainly is capable of significantly more weirdnesses of that than we need to deal with! > > Can it be done as anything OTHER than a hobby project? > > There certainly doesn't seem to be enough economic incentive to put in > > that much work. I kept at it for years after it no longer paid the bills. > I meant it isn't a hobby in the sense that you can do for a few hours a > week at your leisure. I think it would have to be termed more of an > obsession, or unpaid work, than a hobby. :) Ummmm. People on THIS list tend to be rather obsessive in our hobbies. "a few hours a week"??? That's barely a casual interest, nuch less a serious HOBBY! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 19 13:53:39 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 11:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <0167C013-86EB-429D-B188-F2D3FAC2A0F5@softpres.org> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, , <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> <4C1BB96F.28912.22A40DA@cclist.sydex.com> <0167C013-86EB-429D-B188-F2D3FAC2A0F5@softpres.org> Message-ID: <20100619112030.U33720@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 19 Jun 2010, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > It's certainly nice to talk to people who do do that though! I don't > envy you, but I'm sure it's interesting and gratifying work (?) It's a helluva hobby :-) It's great when it will contribute towards paying the bills. > > the bulk of floppies in existence, they don't represent the variety > > of variations in filesystems, encodings or layouts. Most of the > > details of those dedicated systems (say, from someone's PBX) remain > > unknown to the current day. There are some people lurking who have > > knowledge of certain file formats (e.g. embroidery machines) who can > > assist in translating the data to something meaningful. But often, > > the best you can get is "this is what the machine does when you feed > > it this diskette". > Ouch. . . . and the data and information from the users are not always reliable. Such as when they create a single sided 35 track sample disk to analyze, but record it on a used 40 track double sided disk, send you a disk to analyze of a completely alien file system that happens to be jammed full of remains of deleted files, or tell you that "the computer is a Lear-Sigler with a Northstar Horizon external drive", or a "Pentabs" computer (rebranded Vector-Graphic) Just getting them to NAME the computer is a struggle. > > If anyone wants to try their hand at it, I can send a time-domain > > (i.e. Catweasel) sample of a Lanier 32-sector M2FM (as best I can > > determine it) WP disk. You have only to figure out the character > > set, file system, floppy encoding and file format... > Nasty. Might as well be a cryptanalysist for that sort of thing! I or just a puzzle solver > wonder if some statistical-based analysis would help, but perhaps you > are way ahead of me on that? Some Chuck is very fond of histograms. On the other hand, I hardly ever continued with any format that wasn't going to be possible to convert using relatively stock hardware. "If it isn't IBM/WD, then just file the disk in the appropriate section of hardware incompatibles." I played around with some probabalistic code to come up with what to try first, particularly in finding and identifying software sector interleaves (which sector is used after sector number 1? Feed the code the start and end bytes of sectors and have it identify which ones are most likely to be "half a worm" (start of a "word" at the end of one sector, end of the word at the beginning of another sector); in the absence of adequate langauage text (or excessively unfamiliar languages) multibyte machine language instructions are adequate) "Ah HA! The code thinks that there is a high probability that sector 7 follows sector 4. 5 instances of probable sequence on the disk, 3 of which are words!, and 1 of the non-words started with an upper case character. Therefore, 1,4,7? But is it 1,4,7,2,5,8,3,6,9 or 1,4,7,3,6,9,2,5,8?" YES, both of those sequences exist. 'e' is the most probable character in English language text. But if a sector ends with a 'q', then 'u' or '.' are the most probable subsequent characters. BTW, 'e' is NOT the most probable character following a space - look at the thicknesses of different starting letters in the dictionary! An upper case character is much more likely to follow a space that follows another space or a period., etc. But for file information, nothing beats the human mind. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 19 14:15:56 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:15:56 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1C88EF.13343.256FDC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <4C1BB96F.28912.22A40DA@cclist.sydex.com>, <0167C013-86EB-429D-B188-F2D3FAC2A0F5@softpres.org> <4C1C88EF.13343.256FDC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C1D176C.8040401@bitsavers.org> On 6/19/10 9:07 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's really a shame that the Dead Media Project seemed to be just a > flash in the pan. > Dead Media never seemed to collect any information much beyond the basic physical characteristics. The Computer History Museum is (slowly) building up a media format archive mostly based on what I've been able to dig up to support the media images I'm creating. Any information people are willing to donate would obviously be appreciated. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 14:50:50 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:50:50 +0100 Subject: joining cctalk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I too met a person at the UK VCF who failed to join and gave up, this is becoming embarrassing to the list community Dave Caroline On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:20 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I referred someone to this mailing list, but he's unable to join. ?The > server says that he needs to wait to be approved, but nothing happens. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 19 14:54:25 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 15:54:25 -0400 Subject: joining cctalk References: Message-ID: <060B2CBA84F341099CFB090643F3B504@dell8300> Any idea when the last new member got in? Could be the process to join has broken down for a long time and nobody noticed? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Caroline" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:50 PM Subject: Re: joining cctalk I too met a person at the UK VCF who failed to join and gave up, this is becoming embarrassing to the list community Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 19 14:59:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 12:59:08 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <20100619112030.U33720@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <0167C013-86EB-429D-B188-F2D3FAC2A0F5@softpres.org>, <20100619112030.U33720@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C1CBF1C.19414.F90E6C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2010 at 11:53, Fred Cisin wrote: > ...tell you that "the > computer is a Lear-Sigler with a Northstar Horizon external drive"... > Just getting them to NAME the computer is a struggle. I gave up on a customer who insisted strenuously that his system was a "Hazeltine 1400". He absolutely refused to look for another name. > Chuck is very fond of histograms. If it doesn't pass the MFM test, that's the first place I go. 2 peaks=probably FM, 3 peaks = probably MFM, 4 peaks = probably MMFM. 5 peaks = maybe GCR. But I'm not often interested in *writing* floppies, though I can do it if you cross my palm with silver. (e.g. Customer wants copies of his hard-sector 8" disks). What I'm mostly interested in is getting the data off of the disk, which can extend past simply figuring out the filesystem and transferring the files. Right now, I'm dealing with some sort of tokenized test language. Fortunately, the customer still has printouts of some of his files, so I can figure a fair amount out. > On the other hand, I hardly ever continued with any format that wasn't > going to be possible to convert using relatively stock hardware. "If > it isn't IBM/WD, then just file the disk in the appropriate section of > hardware incompatibles." On occasion, I have to build something to handle a peculiar setup. Catweasels aren't the end-all, nor are any others. For example, try putting a Catweasel on a 2.8" DataDisk drive. I'm surprised that no one's showed up with some floppies from a Memorex 651 drive yet. > I played around with some probabalistic code to come up with what to > try first, particularly in finding and identifying software sector > interleaves (which sector is used after sector number 1? Feed the > code the start and end bytes of sectors and have it identify which > ones are most likely to be "half a worm" (start of a "word" at the end > of one sector, end of the word at the beginning of another sector); in > the absence of adequate langauage text (or excessively unfamiliar > languages) multibyte machine language instructions are adequate) The fun ones are where there's a sector interleave and a side and cylinder skew. Or where tracks are allocated on alternate sides of a directory that's located in the middle of the disk. > But for file information, nothing beats the human mind. It's great fun if you're the sort of person who can look at a problem and have the patience to wait for an "ah hah!" moment rather than trying to beat it to death. If you're the "gotta solve it now" type of person, you're probably in for a lot of headaches. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jun 19 15:06:06 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: joining cctalk In-Reply-To: <060B2CBA84F341099CFB090643F3B504@dell8300> References: <060B2CBA84F341099CFB090643F3B504@dell8300> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Jun 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > Any idea when the last new member got in? Could be the process to join has > broken down for a long time and nobody noticed? There ought to be a group of people who can take care of list management when Jay isn't able to do so. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Caroline" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 3:50 PM > Subject: Re: joining cctalk > > > I too met a person at the UK VCF who failed to join and gave up, this > is becoming embarrassing to the list community > > Dave Caroline -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 19 15:22:45 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:22:45 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1CBF1C.19414.F90E6C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <0167C013-86EB-429D-B188-F2D3FAC2A0F5@softpres.org>, <20100619112030.U33720@shell.lmi.net> <4C1CBF1C.19414.F90E6C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C1D2715.8010707@philpem.me.uk> On 19/06/10 20:59, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Chuck is very fond of histograms. > > If it doesn't pass the MFM test, that's the first place I go. 2 > peaks=probably FM, 3 peaks = probably MFM, 4 peaks = probably MMFM. > 5 peaks = maybe GCR. The "MFM test"? As in, "are there two '1' bits directly following each other in the encoded data stream?" But it's true that histograms are good for figuring out which disc formats are likely to have been used... and the math behind the method is solid. > On occasion, I have to build something to handle a peculiar setup. > Catweasels aren't the end-all, nor are any others. For example, try > putting a Catweasel on a 2.8" DataDisk drive. Are those similar to the Mitsumi Quickdisk (nee Famicom Disk System) discs? Basically a continuous stream of binary data, a SEEK_TO_START input and a HEAD_AT_START status output? > I'm surprised that no one's showed up with some floppies from a > Memorex 651 drive yet. That looks fairly standard, at least in terms of the I/O interface (looks like a Shugart variant to me). 32-sector, soft-sectored, 64 tracks. So probably not a standard track pitch then... you're probably pretty screwed if you don't have a 651 sitting on a shelf. Although if you were really determined you might be able to "creatively misalign" an 80-track drive to read the data, but you'd have to fudge the alignment for each track... > It's great fun if you're the sort of person who can look at a problem > and have the patience to wait for an "ah hah!" moment rather than > trying to beat it to death. If you're the "gotta solve it now" type > of person, you're probably in for a lot of headaches. I'm the sort of person that likes to know how things work. Once I've got an "interesting project" to play with, I'll follow it to the logical conclusion. Kinda like a small-scale version of "solving the {Enigma,Lorenz} cipher", I guess... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 19 15:36:56 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:36:56 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1D2715.8010707@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <0167C013-86EB-429D-B188-F2D3FAC2A0F5@softpres.org>, <20100619112030.U33720@shell.lmi.net> <4C1CBF1C.19414.F90E6C@cclist.sydex.com> <4C1D2715.8010707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C1D2A68.6010404@brouhaha.com> On 06/19/2010 01:22 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 19/06/10 20:59, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Chuck is very fond of histograms. >> >> If it doesn't pass the MFM test, that's the first place I go. 2 >> peaks=probably FM, 3 peaks = probably MFM, 4 peaks = probably MMFM. >> 5 peaks = maybe GCR. > > The "MFM test"? As in, "are there two '1' bits directly following each > other in the encoded data stream?" No, the histogram to figure out what the encoding is. A histogram of the time intervals between consecutive leading edges of pulses. You can't tell what is "directly following" what until you have already figured out the encoding. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 19 16:04:32 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 22:04:32 +0100 Subject: joining cctalk References: Message-ID: <019301cb0ff3$0be41e40$026e5d0a@user8459cef6fa> Especially if some members are leaving on the quiet - I hope noone has, but unless they are a very regular poster (e.g. Tony Duell) it would be hard to spot that they had gone. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. If my previous message, or indeed this one, are duplicated then I apologize. Yahoo's SMTP and POP servers seem to be playing up for me at the moment. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Caroline" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2010 8:50 PM Subject: Re: joining cctalk I too met a person at the UK VCF who failed to join and gave up, this is becoming embarrassing to the list community Dave Caroline On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 6:20 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I referred someone to this mailing list, but he's unable to join. The > server says that he needs to wait to be approved, but nothing happens. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 19 16:17:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 14:17:49 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1D2715.8010707@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <4C1CBF1C.19414.F90E6C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C1D2715.8010707@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C1CD18D.3074.141192C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2010 at 21:22, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> The "MFM test"? As in, "are there two '1' bits directly following each > other in the encoded data stream?" Far more basic--just look at the bitstream frequency peaks. FM will have 2 peaks (11 and 10) at t and 2t. MFM has 3 peaks (10, 100, and 1000) at t, 1.5t and 2t and so on. > Are those similar to the Mitsumi Quickdisk (nee Famicom Disk System) > discs? Basically a continuous stream of binary data, a SEEK_TO_START > input and a HEAD_AT_START status output? The same. Mechanically, it's like a self-completing auto winshield- wiper mechanism. The head positioner is coupled to the spindle motor through a clutch mechanism. Pop the clutch and the head sweeps across the disk in a big spiral, then quickly returns to its starting point. Encoding is left to the OEM, but there's usually a sectoring scheme of some sort and the bitrate is pretty low (~ 50Khz). A typical capacity is about 60KB using MFM. > 32-sector, soft-sectored, 64 tracks. So probably not a standard track > pitch then... you're probably pretty screwed if you don't have a 651 > sitting on a shelf. Usually hard-sectored--the sector holes are punched in the outer edge of the disk, though I suppose there's nothing to prevent one from ignoring the sector pulses and soft-sector using only the index pulse as a reference. "Having one on the shelf" is essential. For example, you might have what looks to be a 5.25" floppy, but if it's a 2MB disk written in a Drivetec drive, you'll need the drive to recover the data. --Chuck From lists at softpres.org Sat Jun 19 16:48:08 2010 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 22:48:08 +0100 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <20100619105558.O33720@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <4C19FD36.10509@philpem.me.uk> <6CCEAF06-77F4-4B22-B21B-4A1CEF26111D@softpres.org> <4C1ACF01.8060203@philpem.me.uk> <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> <20100619105558.O33720@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 19 Jun 2010, at 19:19, Fred Cisin wrote: > We can certainly agree to call the IBM/WD MFM (barring weirdnesses) to be > a category of format. For your purposes, duplicating/storing/analyzing > the physical format data, all that would be relevant among those would be > "density", number of cylinders, number of sides, number of sectors per > track, and bytes per sector. Typical weirdnesses would include such > things as unconventional sector headers (invalid cylinder, head, sector > numbering), different physical formats on different tracks, abnormal gap > sizes and content, etc. > > You also get to deal with all of the non- IBM/WD style sectors. We spent a long time coming up with a way of handling that sort of thing automatically. It was a difficult problem to solve, but I'm fairly unashamed to say that now we have, we think it's very neat. Too bad it's useless outside our very niche area. :) >> producing disk images that can be verified by any integrity information >> we can find (and we don't mark them as done until we do). Given our > > Hmmmm. If you needed a third party objective test, . . . > Make two copies. Give the original and the two copies to a hacker who > would attempt to identify which one of the three disks is the original. I know what you mean. That is another thing we've worked hard to determine. If we want to preserve games as they were originally produced, it is very important to us that we can be sure it is the original data. So, before we started trying to preserve anything, we worked out how to see the difference between something written by a commercial mastering machine, and something written by a home system (or indeed between two systems). That way, if it is a copy, or there is virus or other modifications, we know we need to look for another copy. Even hiscores and save games mean we'll look for another copy. Of course, this is all completely games and commercial software specific concerns. >> We do indeed do analysis of inter-sector and inter-track gaps, because >> some types of copy protection use those areas. > > The Amiga certainly is capable of significantly more weirdnesses of that > than we need to deal with! It was certainly a good one to start on ;-) >>> Can it be done as anything OTHER than a hobby project? >>> There certainly doesn't seem to be enough economic incentive to put in >>> that much work. I kept at it for years after it no longer paid the bills. >> I meant it isn't a hobby in the sense that you can do for a few hours a >> week at your leisure. I think it would have to be termed more of an >> obsession, or unpaid work, than a hobby. :) > > Ummmm. People on THIS list tend to be rather obsessive in our hobbies. > "a few hours a week"??? That's barely a casual interest, nuch less a > serious HOBBY! Well, I'm in good company then. :) Our main technical guy, who is actually behind all of our tech once admitted to me that he usually works 8 or more hours a day on this. I wondered how that was possible, and then I remembered that he simply doesn't sleep. Kieron From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 19 17:47:37 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:47:37 -0400 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1CD18D.3074.141192C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C1D2715.8010707@philpem.me.uk> <4C1CD18D.3074.141192C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201006191847.37173.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday, June 19, 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > "Having one on the shelf" is essential. For example, you might have > what looks to be a 5.25" floppy, but if it's a 2MB disk written in a > Drivetec drive, you'll need the drive to recover the data. Speaking of weird disk formats... Has anyone managed to read an IBM "2.4MB" 5.25" floppy, such as those used for microcode for 3174 terminal controllers and other mainframe bits? Hooking a drive up to a catweasel, and throwing a 2.4MB disk in the drive never managed to produce anything useful for me (though I think I could read DSHD "1.2MB" disks in it just fine that way. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 19 18:15:28 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <201006191847.37173.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C1D2715.8010707@philpem.me.uk> <4C1CD18D.3074.141192C@cclist.sydex.com> <201006191847.37173.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20100619155250.B33720@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 19 Jun 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Speaking of weird disk formats... > Has anyone managed to read an IBM "2.4MB" 5.25" floppy, such as those > used for microcode for 3174 terminal controllers and other mainframe > bits? Hooking a drive up to a catweasel, and throwing a 2.4MB disk in > the drive never managed to produce anything useful for me (though I > think I could read DSHD "1.2MB" disks in it just fine that way. Do you have access to a "Drivetec" drive? Hang a scope on it. It is likely to be at 1000K bits per second. IF a normal drive will work with it, you still need to change the controller to the higher speed, OR slow down a 1.2M drive to 180 RPM. If you can find one, Weltec made a 180RPM 1.2M 5.25" drive! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 19 18:29:48 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 00:29:48 +0100 Subject: joining cctalk In-Reply-To: References: <060B2CBA84F341099CFB090643F3B504@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C1D52EC.6020309@philpem.me.uk> On 19/06/10 21:06, David Griffith wrote: > There ought to be a group of people who can take care of list management > when Jay isn't able to do so. Seconded -- it's always a good idea to have at least one 'secondary' moderator/list-admin, even if all he/she can do is authorise new members... I actually wouldn't mind helping out like this -- I'm handling moderation for one Yahoo group and a couple of Mailman lists; one more wouldn't be a big deal. Or the other option would be to set up an open-access "reflector". Everything on cctalk gets posted to the reflector, and the folks who are waiting for their membership to be approved can post to it. When their cctalk membership is OK'd, they unsubscribe from the reflector and start posting to the main list. This would also give us a second mail-archive (though it might be useful to add a prefix or suffix to the subject line of 'reflected' messages, i.e. those that came from 'cctalk proper'). I'd be more than willing to help out with server space, hosting, list-admin work and so on... $DEITY knows how much I've learned from this list since I originally signed up, it'd be nice to be able to give something back! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 18:45:18 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:45:18 -0500 Subject: Amiga 1200, some AV gear, and some test equipment from CL Message-ID: I've been talking to someone who posted an amiga 1200 on craigs list. This is in the chicago area. She has a lot of AV and test equipment also. I have no relation to her, I'm just passing the list along incase anyone is interested. I'm also pasting in a description of the amiga from another thread. Contact her directly (Amy) for pics and details: smittygal7 at hotmail.com The seller replied with some pictures. It's a normal amiga 1200 with a GVP (jaws) 68EC030-40 accelerator without a scsi controller. Unknown ram. It's the model that didn't come with a hard drive, although one has almost certainly been added. There's a vga adapter on the back of the 1200, but it appears that it's not a flicker fixer. They probably had it attached to a monitor that would sync low enough. She's including a 1084s monitor with the machine. The tower has two time base corrector boards installed in what looks like an 8086 type clone motherboard. I'm guessing this because it has the fat 5150 style keyboard connector. Chances are, this motherboard is there only to make the power supply spin up and to provide ISA slots to power the TBC boards. I was hoping it was some sort of expansion chassis that could add zorro or video slots to a 1200, but no dice. 1. Datacom Technologies ET-2 V.35 Error Rate Test Set, brand new wtih manual, case, power pack, etc... 2. Used, Black Box SAM 232-60 3. Plantronics Wilcom Model T336B Circuit Test Set 4. ADK A Joslyn Company 720- TEST Adam-720 test set 1. SHARP XG-E1200U LCD Projector BRAND NEW in BOX w/REMOTE 2. Yamaha RX 595 Natural Sound 2ch stereo Reciever 3. Astrodesign Inc. Digital Video Generator VG-814 GREAT CONDITION, LIKE BRAND NEW 4. Plantronics Wilcom Digital Circuit Test Set M#:T336B 5. TOA-9000 Power Amp/Mixer/Matrix BRAND NEW IN BOX 6. SONY STR-GX800ES HI-FI FM/AM STEREO RECEIVER BRAND NEW 7. Pioneer VSX-3300 2-channel MONSTER Audio/video Receiver/Used in great condition 8. Technics Stereo RS-TR232 Double Cassette GREAT USED 9. Panasonic AG-1960 Pro-line Video Cassette Recorder 10. Onkyo TA-R401 Vintage Stereo Cassette Tape Deck RI 11. Realistic STA-116 Digital Synthesized AM/FM Stereo Reciever 12. Panasonic PV-S7670 BRAND NEW IN BOX SUPER VHS-VCR 13. Panasonic Omnivision Video Cassette Recorder PV-4464 Brand new in box 14. SENCORE CR70 UNIVERSAL CRT ANALYZER AND RESTORER 15. Panasonic Professional Video Cassette Player AG-5100-P new in box 16. Denon Audio CD/Cassette Combi-deck- BRAND NEW IN BOX 17. Tenma Monitor Tester 16 Scan Formats 72-1070 brand new 18. Tenma Dummy Loader 72-4060 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 19 18:50:11 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 19:50:11 -0400 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <20100619155250.B33720@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <201006191847.37173.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20100619155250.B33720@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201006191950.11880.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday, June 19, 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 19 Jun 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Speaking of weird disk formats... > > Has anyone managed to read an IBM "2.4MB" 5.25" floppy, such as > > those used for microcode for 3174 terminal controllers and other > > mainframe bits? Hooking a drive up to a catweasel, and throwing a > > 2.4MB disk in the drive never managed to produce anything useful > > for me (though I think I could read DSHD "1.2MB" disks in it just > > fine that way. > > Do you have access to a "Drivetec" drive? Not sure what "drivetec" is, but the drive I used was an IBM "2.4MB" floppy drive. I guess I didn't make that clear in my message. The "2.4MB" drive read 1.2MB floppies just fine on the Catweasel, but the 2.4MB floppies (which read ok as microcode floppies) didn't produce useful results. > Hang a scope on it. It is likely to be at 1000K bits per second. > IF a normal drive will work with it, you still need to change the > controller to the higher speed, OR slow down a 1.2M drive to 180 RPM. > If you can find one, Weltec made a 180RPM 1.2M 5.25" drive! Yeah, when I get some free time, I'll think about it. I was mostly wondering if anyone here had been successful at reading/writing one of these outside of IBM or outside of an IBM mainframe device with one of the drives. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 19 19:12:11 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 17:12:11 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <201006191950.11880.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <20100619155250.B33720@shell.lmi.net>, <201006191950.11880.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C1CFA6B.19713.1E0BCE8@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2010 at 19:50, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Not sure what "drivetec" is, but the drive I used was an IBM "2.4MB" > floppy drive. I guess I didn't make that clear in my message. The > "2.4MB" drive read 1.2MB floppies just fine on the Catweasel, but the > 2.4MB floppies (which read ok as microcode floppies) didn't produce > useful results. Never had to deal with these, but I suspect they're just 1Mbps conventional 96 tpi drives. What Catweasel are you using? If you want, I'll send you a little DOS code to create a sample file and I'll be willing to take a look at it. Were these ever used on anything but the 3174? Drivetek/Kodak drives are a whole different smoke. 192 tpi, for the 2MB one, with positioning being done via an embedded servo setup on the factory-formatted disks. They'll also read regular 360K floppies just fine--what's interesting is that 360K mode is 600 RPM. --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 19 19:48:37 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:48:37 -0400 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1CFA6B.19713.1E0BCE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <201006191950.11880.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4C1CFA6B.19713.1E0BCE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201006192048.37101.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday, June 19, 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Jun 2010 at 19:50, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Not sure what "drivetec" is, but the drive I used was an IBM > > "2.4MB" floppy drive. I guess I didn't make that clear in my > > message. The "2.4MB" drive read 1.2MB floppies just fine on the > > Catweasel, but the 2.4MB floppies (which read ok as microcode > > floppies) didn't produce useful results. > > Never had to deal with these, but I suspect they're just 1Mbps > conventional 96 tpi drives. > > What Catweasel are you using? If you want, I'll send you a little > DOS code to create a sample file and I'll be willing to take a look > at it. MK3, on a Linux box. I could run FreeDOS on it without much trouble. From what I remember (though my memory is a bit foggy, it's been a few years since I tried this), the catweasel histogram generator (testhist from Tim Mann's catweasel utilities) didn't produce any helpful output. > Were these ever used on anything but the 3174? That's a good question. I'm not sure that they were. The other things that I can think of and have (3480, and 9434-C02) of a similar period used either lower density (DD?) 5.25" floppies, or 3.5" floppies. > Drivetek/Kodak drives are a whole different smoke. 192 tpi, for the > 2MB one, with positioning being done via an embedded servo setup on > the factory-formatted disks. They'll also read regular 360K floppies > just fine--what's interesting is that 360K mode is 600 RPM. Neat. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 20:01:36 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:01:36 -0700 Subject: CS/SS-80 HP-IB Bering 8940 Econopac 4Gb on Ebay in CA In-Reply-To: <1276947951.1937.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1276947951.1937.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: For some reason, this email took 13 hours reach my inbox and by then, the item was taken. :( Mark On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 4:45 AM, Rodney Brown wrote: > Bering 8940 Econopac 4gig Fixed Disk Drive rev. B ? S/N 0206A005 > Item number:380244025020 > Item location:Irwindale, CA, United States > > www.bering.com/doc/brochure/econopac.pdf > www.bering.com/doc/man/econ8000.pdf > > From scanning.cc at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 22:37:59 2010 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:37:59 -0700 Subject: joining cctalk In-Reply-To: <4C1D52EC.6020309@philpem.me.uk> References: <060B2CBA84F341099CFB090643F3B504@dell8300> <4C1D52EC.6020309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: I changed my ISP and it took over a year to get back on the list. Thanks to Lawrence for making it happen. Best regards, Steven On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 19/06/10 21:06, David Griffith wrote: > >> There ought to be a group of people who can take care of list management >> when Jay isn't able to do so. >> > > Seconded -- it's always a good idea to have at least one 'secondary' > moderator/list-admin, even if all he/she can do is authorise new members... > > I actually wouldn't mind helping out like this -- I'm handling moderation > for one Yahoo group and a couple of Mailman lists; one more wouldn't be a > big deal. > > Or the other option would be to set up an open-access "reflector". > Everything on cctalk gets posted to the reflector, and the folks who are > waiting for their membership to be approved can post to it. When their > cctalk membership is OK'd, they unsubscribe from the reflector and start > posting to the main list. This would also give us a second mail-archive > (though it might be useful to add a prefix or suffix to the subject line of > 'reflected' messages, i.e. those that came from 'cctalk proper'). > > I'd be more than willing to help out with server space, hosting, list-admin > work and so on... $DEITY knows how much I've learned from this list since I > originally signed up, it'd be nice to be able to give something back! > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From james at jfc.org.uk Sun Jun 20 08:51:28 2010 From: james at jfc.org.uk (James Carter) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:51:28 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK Message-ID: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> here are a few photos i took yesterday... http://jamesfcarter.fotopic.net/c1862832.html -- James F. Carter www.jfc.org.uk www.podquiz.com www.starringthecomputer.com From james at jfc.org.uk Sun Jun 20 11:08:00 2010 From: james at jfc.org.uk (James Carter) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 17:08:00 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> Message-ID: <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> On 20/06/10 14:51, James Carter wrote: > here are a few photos i took yesterday... > > http://jamesfcarter.fotopic.net/c1862832.html > oh arse - fotopic hate me! try flickr instead... http://www.flickr.com/photos/45858400 at N00/sets/72157624192120177/ -- James F. Carter www.jfc.org.uk podquiz.com starringthecomputer.com From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jun 20 11:19:32 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 17:19:32 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> Message-ID: <4C1E3F94.3010805@philpem.me.uk> On 20/06/10 17:08, James Carter wrote: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/45858400 at N00/sets/72157624192120177/ Spiffy. Where was the Y-MP/EL -- I think I missed that... Did get to see the ATC displays up and running in the afternoon, which was cool. And the Colossus demo -- I don't think I'll ever be able to forget the "CLACK-KACHACK" sound of all those telephone exchange relays! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 09:13:31 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 10:13:31 -0400 Subject: Coleco ADAM Con - Montreal Message-ID: Hi Everyone, A classic computer of the 8-bit era, the Coleco ADAM, is celebrated by all Adamites of Canada and the U.S.A., each year is winding up in Montreal, our 22 annual convention. The central part in my opinion is how to run an ADAM emulator on the PC. For those who still have a working ADAM, more power to you all. Happy classic computing! Murray :) From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jun 19 05:08:30 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 03:08:30 -0700 Subject: Apple 2e In-Reply-To: References: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C1C971E.6000108@jwsss.com> I now have hands on the machine, and no cpm card (lots of floppies) and no serial card (just a db-25 cable). beggers can't be choosers. Any suggestions on the cpm card? I poked on ebay, and what is there didn't give me a warm fuzzy. I do have an apple 2 card cpm card somewhere, but would rather not scrounge it. I'll read the ADP posting, unless someone has words of wisdom on the proper serial card to add to the thread. I know that some cards had actual uarts on them, but the apple original card I had just wiggled the lines, and listened, and had no uart. There seems to be something called a super serial available several places on epay right at the moment. Jim On 6/15/2010 3:07 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> Does anyone have some Prodos and or other software for one of these? >> My supply is locked up, and I don't know if I ever had Prodos. > > If you have a serial card for the machine you can bootstrap from bare > metal using ADP (on SourceForge). > > From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jun 19 05:12:16 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 03:12:16 -0700 Subject: Apple 2e In-Reply-To: References: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C1C9800.6080800@jwsss.com> Immediate update on last post / question. Super Serial will work, and the link is adtpro on sourceforge. Sorry for posting a question, then answer. Moderator could bounce these if that is possible, I'll tidy and post later. Otherwise I'll post what I find for the list to have this in the archives. On 6/15/2010 3:07 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Jim Stephens wrote: > >> Does anyone have some Prodos and or other software for one of these? >> My supply is locked up, and I don't know if I ever had Prodos. > > If you have a serial card for the machine you can bootstrap from bare > metal using ADP (on SourceForge). > > From rdbrown at pacific.net.au Sat Jun 19 06:45:51 2010 From: rdbrown at pacific.net.au (Rodney Brown) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 21:45:51 +1000 Subject: CS/SS-80 HP-IB Bering 8940 Econopac 4Gb on Ebay in CA Message-ID: <1276947951.1937.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Bering 8940 Econopac 4gig Fixed Disk Drive rev. B S/N 0206A005 Item number:380244025020 Item location:Irwindale, CA, United States www.bering.com/doc/brochure/econopac.pdf www.bering.com/doc/man/econ8000.pdf From bqt at softjar.se Sat Jun 19 12:53:53 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:53:53 -0700 Subject: DEC RQZX1 and KDJ11-E boot problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1D0431.5070808@softjar.se> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Now for an interesting bit of info. Apparently there are two > different types of Firmware. One for the PDP-11, and one for VAXen. > I'll see if I can get a little bit more info on that. Huh? That sounds extremely weird, and until you find very good proof of that, I would say that it is false. In the end, it's a Qbus device, and talks Qbus just like anything else. It's also an MSCP controller, which means it talks MSCP, just like any other MSCP controller. And they work the same no matter if they are controlled by a VAX CPU or a PDP-11 CPU. > Now for the important part, the whole manual. > http://www.avanthar.com/~healyzh/RQZX1.pdf Excellent! Thanks for putting this up there. > Looking through the list of supported hardware I see where this is a > board that is of use to very few Hobbyists. It is interesting that > the older versions of the OS's can't support it, when they support > something like a Viking QDT just fine. It is worth pointing out that support OS versions is just a list of the versions that was current when the manual was written. That does not mean that the board don't work in previous versions. The RQZX1 is an MSCP/TMSCP controller, and thus will work with any OS version where the MSCP/TMSCP driver exist, and work. So, it's no different than the QDT, or any other MSCP controller. More or less the same is also true for disk drives. Most any SCSI drive will work fine. The same is probably also true for tape drives. Pros with the RQZX1: It's easy to set up. Switchpacks are easy and obvious. You can boot into the internal diagnostics. You have the option of 2*MSCP or MSCP+TMSCP. You have a floppy interface in there as well. Cons with the RQZX1: It's a quad board. No more than 4 disks on one controller. No more than one tape on a controller (it is rather inflexible). Still, if you have one, it's a nice board to have around. Johnny From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 22:19:49 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2010 20:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a k/b or 2 for a DEC Rainbow, and docs/warez for a Canon VP3000 Message-ID: <551820.89064.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> obtained 2 rainbows last night. The only k/b we could find in the guy's basement had a CTITOAH (or whatever the hell) designation, although it looked exactly like a R* k/b. I didn't argue the point. I now have 1 k/b between 3 R*s. Haven't cracked the veep open yet. I imagine it has a z80 or something monotonous like that. I'll screech if it has an 8088/8086, but I truly doubt it. Text is blue, strange, but was told it's a mono monitor. Need anything anyone can provide for it. Thanks. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 20 15:26:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 13:26:08 -0700 Subject: need a k/b or 2 for a DEC Rainbow, and docs/warez for a Canon VP3000 In-Reply-To: <551820.89064.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <551820.89064.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C1E16F0.677.D47D08@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2010 at 20:19, Chris M wrote: > Haven't cracked the veep open yet. I imagine it has a z80 or > something monotonous like that. I'll screech if it has an 8088/8086, > but I truly doubt it. Text is blue, strange, but was told it's a mono > monitor. Need anything anyone can provide for it. Thanks. The Rainbow 100 was dual CPU (Z80+8088). It could run CP/M or MS- DOS, though hardly IBM PC-compatible. --Chuck From andy at flirble.org Sun Jun 20 16:32:01 2010 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:32:01 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> Message-ID: <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> On (14:51 20/06/10), James Carter wrote: > here are a few photos i took yesterday... I took a few too: http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/sets/72157624193948311/ It was great to meet Lawrence Wilkinson and one of the HECnet chaps (not sure if he's on this list) amongst others. Wish I'd been a bit more organised, but it was a pretty cool weekend in all. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 20 16:44:15 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:44:15 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <002701cb10c1$bddeaa10$399bfe30$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> The HECnet chap is not on this list, but I can put you in touch with him if you like. I found Lawrence Wilkinson's exhibit truly impressive and wish him luck in completing his project. Even though I don't know much about the 360 I wouldn't mind getting the hardware and getting that running for myself once it is done. I thought it was a good event, but I don't have a great deal of interest personally in the gaming aspect, which was quite prevalent. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Back > Sent: 20 June 2010 22:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: photos from VCF UK > > On (14:51 20/06/10), James Carter wrote: > > here are a few photos i took yesterday... > > I took a few too: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/sets/72157624193948311/ > > It was great to meet Lawrence Wilkinson and one of the HECnet chaps > (not > sure if he's on this list) amongst others. Wish I'd been a bit more > organised, but it was a pretty cool weekend in all. > > Cheers, > > Andrew > > -- > Andrew Back > a at smokebelch.org From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 17:45:01 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 17:45:01 -0500 Subject: FFS: SGI IP10 (Iris 4D) motherboard Message-ID: The condition is unknown (other than not cracked and not rusty,) the box looks original, the RAM slots are empty, the ROM chips are labeled Boot 0 - Boot3, the zip code is 60074. Anyone want it? -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 18:11:08 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 18:11:08 -0500 Subject: Apple 2e In-Reply-To: <4C1C971E.6000108@jwsss.com> References: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> <4C1C971E.6000108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 5:08 AM, jim s wrote: > I now have hands on the machine, and no cpm card (lots of floppies) and no > serial card (just a db-25 cable). ?beggers can't be choosers. > > Any suggestions on the cpm card? ?I poked on ebay, and what is there didn't > give me a warm fuzzy. ?I do have an apple 2 card cpm card somewhere, but > would rather not scrounge it. > > I'll read the ADP posting, unless someone has words of wisdom on the proper > serial card to add to the thread. ?I know that some cards had actual uarts > on them, but the apple original card I had just wiggled the lines, and > listened, and had no uart. ?There seems to be something called a super > serial available several places on epay right at the moment. Hi jim. Another option could be that you could pick up an apple 2gs. They're very inexpensive. An entire 2gs might be cheaper than a super serial board. They take ADB keyboards which you might have handy. And if your 2e is a platinum, they use the same floppy drives. The 2gs also has a serial port built in. I was able to track down the right cable for not too much money and use the 2gs to write floppies that I could read on the 2e. brian From keithvz at verizon.net Sun Jun 20 21:36:21 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:36:21 -0400 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <815E9EB6-E103-4B64-A567-2135B08CDA73@softpres.org> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <815E9EB6-E103-4B64-A567-2135B08CDA73@softpres.org> Message-ID: <4C1ED025.9060702@verizon.net> Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > Hi Keith, I'm from SPS. Hi Kieron, Sorry for the delayed post. I wanted to give it my full attention, and am just getting that type of time now. First, let me say that I'm glad that SPS has a voice. > Can you remember when it was you emailed us? I'm really not sure. I emailed a few times, basically explaining who I was, what I was doing, if I could help or get involved with SPS, etc. I checked my sent mail going back and couldn't find it. There were some early on messages circa 2005, and then some later ones in 2006. I accept your apology. > I think it is great all these floppy reading projects are sprouting up. Well, I sort of sprouted up around 2005. :) Have you seen http://www.techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog ? I'm glad to see there are a bunch of projects too. I've answered quite a few emails and comments from my blog. Some as recent as two days ago. > Hopefully we can all stay on good terms. :) I don't see why not. :) > Unfortunately we just can't provide disk images. It's illegal I don't want to digress here unnecessarily. And my viewpoint might not be popular. There's a large portion of the software that is abandonware, companies are defunct, IP isn't owned by anyone. Where there is an IP owner, they are not likely to be aware of, care, or spend time/energy/money trying to enforce those rights. Copyright laws in the US (and in many other countries) suck. I'm glad to see that this stuff is being preserved, but I guess one has to ask to what end? If it's not available for people to look, see, touch, use, then exactly who is benefiting from your work? It's great that you have a huge catalog of preserved software, I'm just missing WHY. Is this for future generations? When? When copyrights expire? How do you think the mission statement of SPS(in terms of providing access to the preserved material) compares to a regular museum? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I'm trying to understand why what you are doing matters. How does this benefit the community? > What we can do, is provide the people that have sent images of their original games with a "verified" version Can I be blunt? Big deal. Here you sit on thousands of perfect copies of games, and the people who enable your collection to grow get their copy "verified." Great. So you have a big fat catalog, and everyone else (contributor or not) gets what? Access to the library? No. > The images you see floating about are the ones that contributors have passed on. Fortunately, most images are available this way. And I'm glad this is the case. And if you have a "secret" distribution arm that you can't admit to in public, that's fine with me. I'm glad that SOMEONE is making the effort to make this stuff available. I will also say that I think it's a damn shame if there has been successful research done on recovery algorithms and the results haven't been made public. While I acknowledge this is my choice, I've spent thousands and thousands of hours researching, documenting, and making available (immediately) different techniques for reading, analyzing, and working with floppy disks. I doubt any of my posts will win a Nobel peace prize, but my goal has been to share my efforts so that it can "fast track" the next guy trying to do something similar. A lot of what we are talking about has a limited lifetime. Once the media goes past its useful life, and drives start to be come rarer and rarer, and those who knew of the Amiga die off --- much of what we are talking about simply won't matter any more. Or at least not even on a hobby scale. We need access to this knowledge, now, while it's still important. Keith From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 22:08:59 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 22:08:59 -0500 Subject: "The Paper" PET newsletter Message-ID: Did anyone win this on ebay today? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320547974650&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT If so, do you plan on scanning it? If you scan, I will host. If you can't scan it and want me to, I will do so and send it back. -- jht From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 20 22:27:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 20:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1ED025.9060702@verizon.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk> <4C167843.10440.215C255@cclist.sydex.com> <4C172E34.50002@philpem.me.uk> <4C17357E.28359.D76F5@cclist.sydex.com> <4C179E23.1010608@philpem.me.uk> <4C18035D.5010807@philpem.me.uk> <201006161347.o5GDllRo031515@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4C18FC09.4070801@philpem.me.uk> <20100616141212.S14811@shell.lmi.net> <4C194B36.1090004@philpem.me.uk> <4C1950D5.8020803@verizon.net> <4C196B71.8010105@philpem.me.uk> <4C197DF0.7080302@verizon.net> <815E9EB6-E103-4B64-A567-2135B08CDA73@softpres.org> <4C1ED025.9060702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20100620194156.T71943@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 20 Jun 2010, Keith wrote: > > I think it is great all these floppy reading projects are sprouting up. > Well, I sort of sprouted up around 2005. :) A ways after I burned out on my attempts The bills to continue the projects were far past what I could manage. > I don't want to digress here unnecessarily. And my viewpoint might not > be popular. There's a large portion of the software that is > abandonware, companies are defunct, IP isn't owned by anyone. WRONG. When a company closes, its assets go to its creditors and its owners. When a person DIES, their assets got to their heirs. (and MY heirs aren't as sweet and nice as I am! My executor has the legal authority to destroy certain assets if unduly pressured. You do NOT want to incur the wrath of Kathy!) SEVERAL times I moved my company offices. Each time, even if it was just a few blocks (such as when I moved from 1454 6th street to 2210 6th street), and even each time that I discontinued an advertisement, I would find out that people were declaring that XenoSoft was defunct, and that therefore my software was "abandonware" or "public domain". Just because you might not be able to find me on the first page in Google does NOT mean that I no longer exist! > Where there is an IP owner, they are not likely to be aware of, care, or > spend time/energy/money trying to enforce those rights. True. Do you know what it costs? A couple of companies were SELLING copies of one of my programs. Just getting them to STOP was going to cost $10K, and there was little or no hope of getting ANY compensation back. One such expected to declare bankruptcy, so they spent everything that had come in, including trips to the French Riviera!. They owed me more than $80,000. I got $1200, and paid out $7400 in legal bills. What should I do with the rest of those profits? I did succeed in putting "Nick Coolman" out of business. Yes, it would have been much cheaper to stop them with unlawful means. It is certainly possible (and common) that somebody might not CARE about their IP rights. IFF they explicitly declare it to be public domain, then it is available. If they do NOT make such an explicit declaration, then the the IP rights still exist. They might not be able to afford to protect their rights. They might not CARE about those rights. But those rights still have ownership. LONG after VisiCalc ceased to be a retail product, I had an opportunity to purchase a non-exclusive share of the rights to it. If Adam Osborn had acted more quickly to get a piece of the VisiCalc IP rights, then he would have been COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY immune to the lawsuit(s) from Lotus! If I were to have acted immediately and bought it, and then handed it over to him, rather than wait for him to take action, then Paperback Software would not have had to go under. But, he waited too long, and Lotus found out and became high bidder. > Copyright laws in the US (and in many other countries) suck. Yep - because they don't include castration for infringers who hide behind declaring what they want to be "abandoned". Well, OK There are many things horrifically wrong with USA IP law. Your inability to get what YOU want, and are not entitled to, is hardly one of the significant ones. > We need access to this knowledge, now, while it's still important. Did you ASK for it? If you DID ask, and the owner said "NO!", then where do you get off declaring that you can take it from its rightful owner? The law kinda takes a dim view of stealing stuff, when the justification was that the owner wouldn't let you have it. If you didn't ask, then that's YOUR problem. You would be amazed how much of it IS available, and can be made LEGAL, by asking first. MANY heirs don't want it. It often takes little or nothing to make it worth their while to give it to you. On the other hand, DEMANDING it can convince the legal owner to DESTROY it rather than passing it on. I suspect that some major mistakes were made in working with Don Maslin's widow. Whether or not their reasons for refusal are good ones is really NOT up to us. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 20 23:17:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 21:17:56 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1ED025.9060702@verizon.net> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <815E9EB6-E103-4B64-A567-2135B08CDA73@softpres.org>, <4C1ED025.9060702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C1E8584.3364.2846E1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jun 2010 at 22:36, Keith wrote: > I don't want to digress here unnecessarily. And my viewpoint might > not be popular. There's a large portion of the software that is > abandonware, companies are defunct, IP isn't owned by anyone. Where > there is an IP owner, they are not likely to be aware of, care, or > spend time/energy/money trying to enforce those rights. As Fred said, no such thing as abandonware. But take heart, something that was copyrighted in 1990 will be public domain in 2085, if Disney doesn't get the term extended. One runs into this all of the time with sheet music. Something published in 1924 is *still* under copyright protection, with the owner having no obligation to republish. Some publishers have now offered to furnish POP (permanently out of print) scores for a fee, but you don't want to know what that fee is. The law is what it is. Live with it or get it changed. --Chuck From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Jun 20 15:58:27 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 15:58:27 -0500 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> Message-ID: <4C1E80F3.5070602@tx.rr.com> James Carter wrote: > On 20/06/10 14:51, James Carter wrote: >> here are a few photos i took yesterday... >> >> http://jamesfcarter.fotopic.net/c1862832.html >> > > oh arse - fotopic hate me! > > try flickr instead... > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/45858400 at N00/sets/72157624192120177/ > Wow, super. Thanks much for sharing. Charlie C. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 16:58:53 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2010 14:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a k/b or 2 for a DEC Rainbow, and docs/warez for a Canon VP3000 In-Reply-To: <4C1E16F0.677.D47D08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <949751.18795.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> omg mg Chuck. I think I know what a R* is by now. I don't know (even now) what's inside the VP3000 ("Veep"). Crikeys mate@! --- On Sun, 6/20/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Haven't cracked the veep open yet. I imagine it > has a z80 or > > something monotonous like that. I'll screech if > it has an 8088/8086, > > but I truly doubt it. Text is blue, strange, but > was told it's a mono > > monitor. Need anything anyone can provide for > it. Thanks. > > The Rainbow 100 was dual CPU (Z80+8088). It could run > CP/M or MS- > DOS, though hardly IBM PC-compatible. > > --Chuck > > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 01:26:07 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 07:26:07 +0100 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) In-Reply-To: References: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> <8E5CEB52-F41E-438B-9D1B-D93DC4C4495F@acpsuperstore.com> <4C1BE438.7020902@snarc.net> Message-ID: FB is not a lot of use for normal punters who are not a FB member Dave Caroline On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 3:34 AM, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Jason T wrote: >> Yes, keep an eye out there, and also at http://vcfmw.org. ?More >> details coming soon! > > Also, for you kids on The Face Book these days, there is a group for > VCF-MW there: > > http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=137065072974225&ref=ts > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 01:48:06 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 02:48:06 -0400 Subject: Apple 2e In-Reply-To: References: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> <4C1C971E.6000108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C1F0B26.7060304@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > Hi jim. Another option could be that you could pick up an apple 2gs. > They're very inexpensive. An entire 2gs might be cheaper than a super > serial board. They take ADB keyboards which you might have handy. I come across both SSCs and //gs machines for free with some regularity. Peace... Sridhar From info at mewgull.com Mon Jun 21 03:22:51 2010 From: info at mewgull.com (Mewgull Associates Limited) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:22:51 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> On 20 Jun 2010, at 22:32, Andrew Back wrote: > On (14:51 20/06/10), James Carter wrote: >> here are a few photos i took yesterday... > > I took a few too: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/sets/72157624193948311/ > \ I noticed an MK14 - I remember having one of those, Not a useful computer, but I went on to a Nascom - were there any there? Richard From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon Jun 21 04:44:50 2010 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 10:44:50 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> Message-ID: <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> Some more photos to join the collection Some do seem to be very similar to others in James' and Andrew's collections -obviously similar items caught our eyes. http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyh-rayleigh/ parts of me(!) can be seen on James' pictures of the 2966 - in the first one I (or about 1/4 of me) can be seen at the extreme left of the picture ... I am talking to Alan Thomson (off shot) about some old ICL manuals I have, one of which is in my hand in the picture. I believe that the person with the ICL banner in that photo is Delwyn Holroyd who was looking after the 2966 at the time and is one of the joint authors of the 1900/George3 emulator that can be found if you try hard enough :-) In the other main photo of the 2966 (P1000077) the back of my head is visible as one of the group of 3 at the back by the MT drive. I went to David Ahl's talk. Pity so few others did (less than 2 dozen altogether) - how fleeting is fame :-( I suppose it is inevitable that any such gathering has "holes" in the story ... I saw no mention of the Amateur Computing Club (ACC) (and the 77/68) which was the nucleus of hobby computing just before the MK14 and Acorn Atom introduced "proper" commercial kits - and even the Atom that I photo-ed had no informative label. Other than PDP-11s, the minicomputer era was practically ignored; Perqs were the only obvious examples of the workstation era; the disappearance of items from the primary mainframe era is easier to understand - but it would have been nice to have had at least one information board on the Ferranti Atlas that innovated so many of the things we now take for granted. Andy Holt one of the two visitors wearing T-shirts with the motto: There's no place like 127.0.0.1 I should obviously have found my "Happiness is Honeywell" Snoopy Tshirt instead! From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 05:23:17 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:23:17 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> Message-ID: <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Mewgull Associates Limited wrote: > \ I noticed an MK14 - I remember having one of those, Not a useful > computer, but I went on to a Nascom - were there any there? Alas no, shame really as I remember Nascoms fondly having done my O level programming on the Nascom 3 network we had at school. Cheers, Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Jun 21 06:03:30 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:03:30 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4C1F4702.6040502@mac.com> We were in the news!!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/10364135.stm On a personal note, never having been to Bletchley park before i was amazed at the level of knowledge the volunteers who work there have and how much they put into maintaing what they have! I was great to see some of the projects people have been working on. I quite fancy an IBM 360 / 30 FPGA board now i know a little about big iron! Roger From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 21 07:18:03 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:18:03 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> Message-ID: <4C1F587B.3020203@philpem.me.uk> On 21/06/10 10:44, Andy Holt wrote: > I went to David Ahl's talk. Pity so few others did (less than 2 dozen > altogether) - how fleeting is fame :-( It was double-booked with Tony Sale's Colossus Rebuild talk... I went for the Colossus talk because I thought I'd have to be back on the M1 for 4PM (and would thus miss the 'second showing'), and as it turned out Mum wanted to stay longer to look round the museum. It would have been nice if the pamphlet had included a brief biog of the speakers and what they'd be talking about. I'm terrible with names; it took a Google search to remind me who David Ahl was, but if you'd said "editor, Creative Computing magazine"... well. Half of the talks were listed as "In the museum" or "In the mansion"... OK, that says which building they're in, but which room in that building? Ugh. The "Enigma Cinema" wasn't even on the map -- we didn't notice that until we were walking out the gates at 5PM. The leaflet also explained that there would be demonstrations of the Bombe (Enigma key-cracker) machine "in B-block". We were there six hours and didn't manage to find B-block... But as I've said previously -- it was a great show. Nice turnout, no doubt I bumped into a few other classiccmp'ers, but only John Honniball unmasked me... evidently my disguise was too good! :) > Other than PDP-11s, the minicomputer era was practically ignored; Perqs were > the only obvious examples of the workstation era; There were PERQs? Where?! > one of the two visitors wearing T-shirts with the motto: > > There's no place like > 127.0.0.1 My friend's got one of those... a little too geeky for my taste. Though that said I do have these: "Stand back! I know regular expressions!" (XKCD) "sudo make me a sandwich" (XKCD) "dreaming of androids" (complete with a picture of an electric sheep) "Nikitak Dance" -- a six-legged, white-furred alien critter dancing. if you're interested. Only readers of the comic are likely to get the joke, and even then it's really subtle. I go for subtlety... sometimes too subtle :) > I should obviously have found my "Happiness is Honeywell" Snoopy Tshirt > instead! Got a picture? The Great Oracle (er... Google) doesn't seem to want to play... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 11:00:32 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:00:32 -0500 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1BB96F.28912.22A40DA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, , <20100618165322.Q96533@shell.lmi.net> <4C1BB96F.28912.22A40DA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C1F8CA0.60106@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If anyone wants to try their hand at it, I can send a time-domain > (i.e. Catweasel) sample of a Lanier 32-sector M2FM (as best I can > determine it) WP disk. You have only to figure out the character > set, file system, floppy encoding and file format... Hmm, the first of a series of "list challenges"? :-) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 11:11:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:11:45 -0700 Subject: need a k/b or 2 for a DEC Rainbow, and docs/warez for a Canon VP3000 In-Reply-To: <949751.18795.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4C1E16F0.677.D47D08@cclist.sydex.com>, <949751.18795.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4C1F2CD1.2351.8C6D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jun 2010 at 14:58, Chris M wrote: > omg mg Chuck. I think I know what a R* is by now. I don't know (even > now) what's inside the VP3000 ("Veep"). Crikeys mate@! Yes, I was puzzled by your message also. Perhaps if you'd have explicitly said VP3000, instead of "Veep", that might have cleared things up a bit. Or perhaps I need to brush up on my parsing skills. Canon made a range of these Wapros, from the VP500 to the VP6000 (as well as the well-known Cat). I've never had the opportunity to pop any one of these open for a look-see. Maybe you'll let the list know what lurks under the hood. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 11:12:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:12:58 -0700 Subject: Software-based floppy disc data separator In-Reply-To: <4C1F8CA0.60106@gmail.com> References: <4C16D1D9.6060005@philpem.me.uk>, <4C1BB96F.28912.22A40DA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4C1F8CA0.60106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C1F2D1A.18084.9E3EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jun 2010 at 11:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, the first of a series of "list challenges"? :-) Sure, if you'd like to try your hand at it. To quote Jimmy Durante, "I got a million of 'em". --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 21 12:04:27 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:04:27 -0400 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) In-Reply-To: References: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> Message-ID: <201006211304.27318.pat@computer-refuge.org> Yeah, shame on you Jason for providing content that not everyone can access! (See: why I got out of the VCF biz) Pat On Monday 21 June 2010, Dave Caroline wrote: > FB is not a lot of use for normal punters who are not a FB member > > Dave Caroline > > On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 3:34 AM, Jason T wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> Yes, keep an eye out there, and also at http://vcfmw.org. More > >> details coming soon! > > > > Also, for you kids on The Face Book these days, there is a group > > for VCF-MW there: > > > > http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=137065072974225&ref=ts > -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 13:14:38 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:14:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> from "Andy Holt" at Jun 21, 10 10:44:50 am Message-ID: This may well me my last post to the list for many reasons... Of course I did not go to to VCF-UK, and after seeing the photos, etc, I think I meade the right decision. > Other than PDP-11s, the minicomputer era was practically ignored; Perqs were > the only obvious examples of the workstation era; the disappearance of items > from the primary mainframe era is easier to understand - but it would have > been nice to have had at least one information board on the Ferranti Atlas > that innovated so many of the things we now take for granted. Having looked at many of the photos on flickr, etc, I think you need to distinguish between the stuff which is at BP all the time (the NMoC etc) and the stuff that private collectors brought along specifically for the VCF. Several people have commented on the Colossus rebuild and the talk, for example, but I don't consider that to be specifically part of the VCF. Of the enthusiast displays, it appears most, if not all, were 1980s UK home micros, often running commercial games of the time. Which to me seems like something to attract the general public, not something that a classic ocmputer fanatic would rave over. Were there any minicomputers or workstations brought along by enthusiasts? I suspect the PERQs you mentioned were the ones that were in the NMoC anyway (As an aside, if I had been coming, and if I had had time to prepare it, I might well have brought alon a PERQ 2T4, a machine which is _not_ in the NMoC. Or at least one Philips minicomputer. Or HP calculators from discrete transsitor to 68000). Waht was the fleamarket like? The photos I've seen of it showed (again) 1980s micros selling at what I consider ot be high-ish prices -- certainly more than I would pay for such machines. I used to frequent radio rallies, not to get complete transmitters or receivers, but to find odd bits -- the connector I needed to fit $device, an odd PCB that I knew would fit the machine I was working on (or that contained ICs I needed), things like that. Was there anything like that at the VCF? > one of the two visitors wearing T-shirts with the motto: > > There's no place like > 127.0.0.1 I saw a girl (OK, female homo sapiens, in her twenties, I guess, what is the acceptable term for that) wearing what I believe is called a 'hoodie' the other day. On the back it said 'I wanted to change the world, but they wouldn't give me the source code' Perhaps fortunately (since i don't really know how to interact with females), I was on an omnibus and she wasn't, so I couldn't ask her about it... > I should obviously have found my "Happiness is Honeywell" Snoopy Tshirt > instead! I would wear the jumper my late mother knitted for me. There's at least one picture of me wearing it on the net, it has a pattern which is appicable to me (both what I studied and what I enjoy). -tony From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 13:24:08 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:24:08 -0700 Subject: Off-Topic: Old Phones... Message-ID: <28B64BD1-59B8-4588-A776-DE8C3BC6E56C@feedle.net> Heya. Given the penchant of people on this list to collect all sorts of obsolete and antique tech, I figured I'd throw a query out here. I live in an old apartment block that has a 1920's vintage Western Electric intercom system. The system is in need of some "help" (it still works, but is far from what you'd consider 'optimal'). I'm a phone guy by trade, and would love to spend some of my personal time making this system work like it did when it was installed in 1927. If anybody out there has any knowledge of antique intercom systems like this, please E-mail me off list. I can provide more information (like pictures of the equipment and a better description). Just don't want to further dive down this rabbit hole on this list. For that matter, if there's a discussion list relevant to antique telephone systems, referring me there would be appreciated as well. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 13:25:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:25:33 -0400 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <4C1F4702.6040502@mac.com> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C1F4702.6040502@mac.com> Message-ID: <4C1FAE9D.5020409@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 7:03 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: > I quite fancy an IBM 360 / 30 FPGA board now i know a little about big > iron! Urr? Is someone working on that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jun 21 13:29:23 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits Message-ID: I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom already burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit rather than a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 13:45:16 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:45:16 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/21/10, David Griffith wrote: > > I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete > kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the > board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom > already burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit > rather than a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. I tend to pick up more bare boards and partial kits than full kits, but that's because I have a well-stocked parts bin. I would like to learn more about what a partial kit would include and what I'd have to provide myself - if it looks good, I'd be interested in a P112. -ethan From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 13:46:34 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:46:34 -0500 Subject: Off-Topic: Old Phones... In-Reply-To: <28B64BD1-59B8-4588-A776-DE8C3BC6E56C@feedle.net> References: <28B64BD1-59B8-4588-A776-DE8C3BC6E56C@feedle.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 21, 2010 at 1:24 PM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > For that matter, if there's a discussion list relevant to antique telephone systems, referring me there would be appreciated as well. Very cool project! I'll reply on-list as it may be of interest to others here. IMHO the history of computing and telephony is deeply intertwingled. This is the list you want: http://telephonecollectors.org/ There is a fairly active web forum here which mainly deals with newer systems, but there is a retro crowd there too: http://www.sundance-communications.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi And despite the narrow name, a lot of vintage telephone info is covered here: http://www.classicrotaryphones.com/forum/index.php Good luck with the rescue! -- jht From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 13:48:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:48:25 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1FB3F9.9030105@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 2:45 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete >> kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the >> board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom >> already burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit >> rather than a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. > > I tend to pick up more bare boards and partial kits than full kits, > but that's because I have a well-stocked parts bin. > > I would like to learn more about what a partial kit would include and > what I'd have to provide myself - if it looks good, I'd be interested > in a P112. Seconded. I'm much more interested in a bare board, perhaps along with any hard-to-find chips. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 21 13:48:12 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:48:12 -0400 Subject: Twitter on a ZX Spectrum =?windows-1252?Q?=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <4C1FB3EC.2060209@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/21/vintage_computer_fair/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jun 21 13:50:56 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/21/10, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete >> kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the >> board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom >> already burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit >> rather than a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. > > I tend to pick up more bare boards and partial kits than full kits, > but that's because I have a well-stocked parts bin. > > I would like to learn more about what a partial kit would include and > what I'd have to provide myself - if it looks good, I'd be interested > in a P112. Well, download the P112 manual and check the SRAM, boot ROM, and surface mount parts off. Those chips and the board would be what you'd get in the partial kit. I'd probably add seral pigtails too because I got a metric buttload that I won't be able to get rid of otherwise. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 14:16:55 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:16:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jun 21, 10 11:29:23 am Message-ID: > > > I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete > kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the > board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom > already burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit > rather than a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. I am very unliklely to buy one, but in any case I wouldn't consider a kit unless it came totally unsoldered. That is no pre-mounted SMD parts... -tony From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 14:27:55 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:27:55 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I am very unliklely to buy one, but in any case I wouldn't consider a kit > unless it came totally unsoldered. That is no pre-mounted SMD parts... Why would you want to go through the pain of stuffing your own SMD parts? Note that it wouldn't necessarily make the kit any cheaper. The cost of stuffing the SMD parts was negligible compared to the total cost of the kit. It is also my understanding that the CPU and FDC are both completely unavailable in anything but PLCC packages. From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 14:28:40 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:28:40 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2C0D36-808F-4DD4-A73D-D41C2666F877@feedle.net> On Jun 21, 2010, at 11:50 AM, David Griffith wrote: > Well, download the P112 manual and check the SRAM, boot ROM, and surface mount parts off. Those chips and the board would be what you'd get in the partial kit. I'd probably add seral pigtails too because I got a metric buttload that I won't be able to get rid of otherwise. Dave: You might want to put a URL to the site so people can find it, just in case they aren't familiar with the project. http://frotz.homeunix.org/p112/ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jun 21 14:29:15 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:29:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> References: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2010, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I am very unliklely to buy one, but in any case I wouldn't consider a kit >> unless it came totally unsoldered. That is no pre-mounted SMD parts... > > Why would you want to go through the pain of stuffing your own SMD > parts? > > Note that it wouldn't necessarily make the kit any cheaper. The cost of > stuffing the SMD parts was negligible compared to the total cost of the > kit. > > It is also my understanding that the CPU and FDC are both completely > unavailable in anything but PLCC packages. QFP packages -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jun 21 14:30:27 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4D2C0D36-808F-4DD4-A73D-D41C2666F877@feedle.net> References: <4D2C0D36-808F-4DD4-A73D-D41C2666F877@feedle.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2010, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > > On Jun 21, 2010, at 11:50 AM, David Griffith wrote: > >> Well, download the P112 manual and check the SRAM, boot ROM, and >> surface mount parts off. Those chips and the board would be what you'd >> get in the partial kit. I'd probably add seral pigtails too because I >> got a metric buttload that I won't be able to get rid of otherwise. > > Dave: You might want to put a URL to the site so people can find it, > just in case they aren't familiar with the project. > > http://frotz.homeunix.org/p112/ Right. I'm trying to get people to use my new(ish) domain. 661.org. See http://661.org/p112 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Jun 21 14:30:41 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:30:41 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00BCE3BE-F70C-4476-9CF8-C2AFAB638D3A@xlisper.com> > I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom already burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit rather than a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. The P112 looks pretty interesting. I'd consider a partial kit depending on the price. While I have successfully soldered one SMT part (the FTDI chip on the X0xb0x board), it wasn't fun and I would probably like to try to avoid having to do it again. I think I just lucked out that I didn't fry the chip. I bridged a number of pins and had to clean up with solder wick. From drb at msu.edu Mon Jun 21 14:32:25 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:32:25 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:27:55 PDT.) <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> References: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> Message-ID: <201006211932.o5LJWPdC000848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Why would you want to go through the pain of stuffing your own SMD > parts? Can't speak for Tony, but from my perspective, you've got it all wrong. When I get a kit and find someone has partially assembled it to "help" me, I grumble and swear. The proper question is "Why would you want to surrender the fun of installing the SMD parts?" I don't need another P112, so my opinion is largely irrelevant to this topic, however. De From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 14:40:47 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:40:47 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> Message-ID: On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:29 PM, David Griffith wrote: > QFP packages Oh, yeah, sorry. Been a long night. It should be noted that the original design ideals, and for that matter what makes the P112 cool for a lot of people, is the design as it sits. It's a very easy to build kit, requiring only the assembly of discretes and a couple of IC sockets. I've built P112's in an evening. If you want a more "traditional", retro-appropriate design, check out N8VEM. He's built a pretty awesome through-hole system that uses individual boards for things like the controller, disk I/O, etc. Heck, there's even ways to make it S-100 if that tickles your fancy. P112 was (I believe) designed to be mounted to a 3 1/2" floppy drive and provide a functional full-featured CP/M computer by itself with said floppy drive and a serial terminal. It's not the be-all end-all of CP/M SBC designs.. in fact, it sometimes leaves a lot to be desired from a true hard-core CP/M-ists stance. However, as an introduction to SBCs, and as a retrocomputing project, the P112 is exactly what it purports to be. From info at mewgull.com Mon Jun 21 06:21:07 2010 From: info at mewgull.com (Mewgull Associates Limited) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:21:07 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <6988CABB-243B-41D5-9060-17C39AD70928@mewgull.com> On 21 Jun 2010, at 11:23, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Mewgull Associates Limited wrote: >> \ I noticed an MK14 - I remember having one of those, Not a useful >> computer, but I went on to a Nascom - were there any there? > > Alas no, shame really as I remember Nascoms fondly having done my O level programming on the Nascom 3 network we had at school. Hmmmm. I was hacking Galaxian video games at that time and my employers bought a Nascom 1 for me to use as a 'development platform'. The hardware was quite similar to many of the pub game machines back then. I bought a Nascom 2 soon after they came out and got as far as a hard disk controller and a 5Mb 8" hard disk before getting side-tracked into pimping Macs! Richard From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Jun 21 09:56:23 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:56:23 -0500 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> Message-ID: <4C1F7D97.1020001@tx.rr.com> Andy Holt wrote: > Some more photos to join the collection > Some do seem to be very similar to others in James' and Andrew's collections > -obviously similar items caught our eyes. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/andyh-rayleigh/ > > parts of me(!) can be seen on James' pictures of the 2966 - in the first one > I (or about 1/4 of me) can be seen at the extreme left of the picture ... I > am talking to Alan Thomson (off shot) about some old ICL manuals I have, one > of which is in my hand in the picture. I believe that the person with the > ICL banner in that photo is Delwyn Holroyd who was looking after the 2966 at > the time and is one of the joint authors of the 1900/George3 emulator that > can be found if you try hard enough :-) > > In the other main photo of the 2966 (P1000077) the back of my head is > visible as one of the group of 3 at the back by the MT drive. > > I went to David Ahl's talk. Pity so few others did (less than 2 dozen > altogether) - how fleeting is fame :-( > > I suppose it is inevitable that any such gathering has "holes" in the story > ... > I saw no mention of the Amateur Computing Club (ACC) (and the 77/68) which > was the nucleus of hobby computing just before the MK14 and Acorn Atom > introduced "proper" commercial kits - and even the Atom that I photo-ed had > no informative label. > Other than PDP-11s, the minicomputer era was practically ignored; Perqs were > the only obvious examples of the workstation era; the disappearance of items > from the primary mainframe era is easier to understand - but it would have > been nice to have had at least one information board on the Ferranti Atlas > that innovated so many of the things we now take for granted. > > Andy Holt > > one of the two visitors wearing T-shirts with the motto: > > There's no place like > 127.0.0.1 > > I should obviously have found my "Happiness is Honeywell" Snoopy Tshirt > instead! > > Thanks for those too. The captions really help us dummies on the left side of the big pond who love this stuff, but don't know what a lot of it is without help. BTW, 127.0.0.1 is one of my favorite places as well! One can get carried away though, as I just recently killed my ability to do the LA Times online crossword puzzle by routing one too many things there. Twas easy to fix of course, once I realized what I'd done. Thanks again, Charlie C. From W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de Mon Jun 21 14:02:18 2010 From: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 21:02:18 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-8 in a fpga, but this time running tss/8 --> yet another pdp-11 in fgpa Message-ID: <4C1FB73A.3000801@gsi.de> Hi there, Brad Parker just posted about his FPGA implementation of a PDP-11, which boots so far RT-11, RSTS V4, BSD 2.9 and Unix V6. There was a question how fast an FPGA solution might be compared to a PDP-11/93. I've also implemented a PDP-11 on an FPGA. It is a full 11/70 with split I&D, MMU and cache. No FPP so far. Available peripherals are so far DL11, LP11, KW11L, PC11, and RK11. All I/O is channeled over via 'remote-register-interface' onto a single bi-directional byte stream interface, so the FPGA board needs a backend PC with a server program to handle the I/O requests. The design is FPGA proven, runs on Digilent S3 and NEXYS2 boards, the former with 1 MB 10 ns SRAM, the later with 16 MB 70ns PSDRAM. Resource consumption is S3 board xc3s1000 2471 slices or 33% NEXYS2 board xc3s1200e 2624 slices or 30% The implementation was verified against many XXDP maindec's. There are some open issues, especially some details of trap and double error handling aren't correct yet. In practice this is of little importance, the FPGA system happily boots and runs BSD 2.11, a system using 22bit addressing and split I&D space. {Note: you need patch 447 for 2.11BSD to get FPP emulation and RK support working} On Performance: The design runs at 50 MHz. I've run parts of the Byte Unix benchmark on the FPGA systems. Given that the FPP is only emulated by the 2.11BSD kernel it makes only sense to look at the integer benchmarks. The Dhrystone benchmark 'dhry2reg' gives about '11500 lps' on both boards. For comparison see Michael Schneiders page http://www.vaxcluster.de/mambo/bench2.php?mach=pdp11 which gives about '830 lps' for a 11/53. There is little Dhrystone difference between the two boards despite the very different memory access times. The 8 kB cache with 32 bit cache lines really helps on the NEXYS2 board. I'm in the middle of homogenizing some internal interfaces and of some code cleanup, also the backend handler needs a re-write in C++ (currently perl). When that's done I'll make the whole package (VHDL sources, test benches, backend) available on 'OpenCores'. Finally a comment to Dave Mitton's remark > Now what would be really cool would be to make 4 CPUs and re-create > an 11/74 quad. > http://www.miim.com/faq/hardware/multipro.html#castor The reason why I picked a 11/70 and not a J11 as target is because my goal is a 11/74. I've implemented the IIST already and tested against the IIST Diagnostic I could find in XXDP (riiab0). A dual core will fit into a single xc3s1200e of the NEXYS2 board. The work needed is quite clear and doable (changes on cache, mmu, and cpu core for asrb). However, I've no plans to implement the CIS, so it will always be a subset of a 11/74. But for sure fun to do and run. With best regards, Walter From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 14:42:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:42:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> from "A. Christoff Baumann" at Jun 21, 10 12:27:55 pm Message-ID: > > > On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I am very unliklely to buy one, but in any case I wouldn't consider a = > kit=20 > > unless it came totally unsoldered. That is no pre-mounted SMD parts... > > Why would you want to go through the pain of stuffing your own SMD = > parts? Because there's no pain, it's actually fun. And if I do it myself, I can use the lead/tin solder which I still believe is more reliable. > > Note that it wouldn't necessarily make the kit any cheaper. The cost of = What has that got to do with it? > stuffing the SMD parts was negligible compared to the total cost of the = > kit. > > It is also my understanding that the CPU and FDC are both completely = > unavailable in anything but PLCC packages.= > Actually, through-hole PLCC sockets exist (I built a number of transputer boards using them and a roadrunner tool...). And there are SMD PLCC sockets that take the same footprint as the IC. I would want to socket all ICs unless there were technical reasons (heat disipation or stray capacitance, for example) not to do so -- my experience is that good quality sockets do not cause significant unreliability (and for something like that that's nor eally an issue) but do make debugging and repair a lot easier. -tony From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Jun 21 14:46:07 2010 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:46:07 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <4C1FAE9D.5020409@neurotica.com> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C1F4702.6040502@mac.com> <4C1FAE9D.5020409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> On Mon, 2010-06-21 at 14:25 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/21/10 7:03 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: > > I quite fancy an IBM 360 / 30 FPGA board now i know a little about big > > iron! > > Urr? Is someone working on that? Ah, yes. VCF was its debut. I haven't got a page up yet, but you can see Andrew's photo at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/4718559358/ Basically, it's a 1000K gate Spartan 3 which contains the microcode store (2k x 55) and 8k x 9 of main memory. Front panel switches are physical rotaries and pushbuttons; blinkenlights are via a VGA display for now. Right now it fails the microcode startup diagnostics with a main memory parity error, probably due to a race condition somewhere (the memory /used/ to work). Once that's sorted, the next step is to get it executing 360 code. Then adding virtual peripherals to the multiplexor and selector channels. Then taking a 2311 DOS/360 image, and booting. Simple! Once I get the diagnostic stuff sorted I'll put an image or the VHDL up for anyone that wants to have a go at programming it into one of the Digilent S3 boards, or perhaps porting it to something similar. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 14:47:03 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 12:47:03 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <201006211932.o5LJWPdC000848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> <201006211932.o5LJWPdC000848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:32 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: >> The proper question is "Why would > you want to surrender the fun of installing the SMD parts?" Because many people have difficulty soldering SMD parts, and we can have a professional robot pick-and-place the parts at a cost that is negligible for us compared to supporting people who will invariably screw that step up. Additionally, being the static-sensitive nature of the parts and their small size, it makes inventory easier for us. And for myself, my eyesight is such that I can't even see well enough (at age 40) to solder SMD anymore on a tight board. In the last production run, we had one or two defects, and that was difficult for me to fix: I can't imagine having to solder all the pins and doing it successfully. Dave: I have a small number of unstuffed boards as overages from the last production run. If people really want to do all the SMD stuff, order a few extra parts and we can package up the unstuffed boards to people who like eyestrain and/or have their own wave-soldering systems. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 14:47:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:47:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <201006211932.o5LJWPdC000848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Jun 21, 10 03:32:25 pm Message-ID: > > > Why would you want to go through the pain of stuffing your own SMD > > parts? > > Can't speak for Tony, but from my perspective, you've got it all > wrong. When I get a kit and find someone has partially assembled it > to "help" me, I grumble and swear. The proper question is "Why would > you want to surrender the fun of installing the SMD parts?" That is basically how I feel to. If I didn't want to assemble it myself, I'd buy a ready-built , The point of buying the kit is to have some fun putting it together (which is a relaxation for me). And SMD work is not that difficult. As I mentioned, the one time I did find it _mildly_ stressful was when I was upgrading somebody else's HPO42S calculator [1] and was being photogrpahed using flash as I hand-soldered the new RAM. It still worked first time. [1] The HP42S came with 8K of RAM. It's possible to remove the existing RAM (a 6264) and replace it with a 62256 to get a 32K machine. There's one so;der=blob link you have to move too. There are some pictures of doing it (not the machine I mentioend above, another one I did) on my flickr site. I generally call the upgraded machine an HP42SV by analogy with the HP41CV. > > I don't need another P112, so my opinion is largely irrelevant to > this topic, however. It's unlikely I would consider any such kit to be a sensible use of money at the moment, alas... -tony From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon Jun 21 14:49:18 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 21:49:18 +0200 Subject: H9281 wanted Message-ID: <4C1FC23E.6020102@bluewin.ch> If anyone has spare H9281 ( 4 or 8 slots ) that they would not mind selling off, I'd be interested. Jos Dreesen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 14:52:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 20:52:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <6988CABB-243B-41D5-9060-17C39AD70928@mewgull.com> from "Mewgull Associates Limited" at Jun 21, 10 12:21:07 pm Message-ID: > Hmmmm. I was hacking Galaxian video games at that time and my employers = > bought a Nascom 1 for me to use as a 'development platform'. The = > hardware was quite similar to many of the pub game machines back then. I have a Nascom II which I bought some years back and got going again. And a thing called a Gemini Calaxy which is a somwwhat related machine (NASBus compatible boards, etc) with a hard disk and a custom network interface. The latter had all the numbers sandded off the ICs to make it 'impossible' to reverse-enginener -- it puzzled me for about 10 minutes... -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 21 14:52:41 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:52:41 -0500 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) In-Reply-To: <201006211304.27318.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> <201006211304.27318.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4C1FC309.8000201@oldskool.org> I guess people didn't read the words "also" and (paraphrasing) "for those on facebook". This is extra info, not the primary/final info. On 6/21/2010 12:04 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Yeah, shame on you Jason for providing content that not everyone can > access! > > (See: why I got out of the VCF biz) > > Pat > > On Monday 21 June 2010, Dave Caroline wrote: >> FB is not a lot of use for normal punters who are not a FB member >> >> Dave Caroline >> >> On Sat, Jun 19, 2010 at 3:34 AM, Jason T wrote: >>> On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Jason T > wrote: >>>> Yes, keep an eye out there, and also at http://vcfmw.org. More >>>> details coming soon! >>> >>> Also, for you kids on The Face Book these days, there is a group >>> for VCF-MW there: >>> >>> http://www.facebook.com/#!/event.php?eid=137065072974225&ref=ts >> > > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 15:00:42 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:00:42 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45F4E9DB-8855-49FE-8534-F3F64ACAC2C7@feedle.net> On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Because there's no pain, it's actually fun. And if I do it myself, I can > use the lead/tin solder which I still believe is more reliable. I'm not convinced either way on the "reliability" angle. And, I think decreasing the amount of lead in my diet is a good thing, so I'm "okay" with the Pb-free solder nowadays. >> Note that it wouldn't necessarily make the kit any cheaper. The cost of = > > What has that got to do with it? In my experience of making and selling kits, a lot of people think "hey, if I do that myself, it will make it cheaper." Dave and I have gotten a couple of inquiries along those lines over the years, so I'm heading off that objection in advance. > >> stuffing the SMD parts was negligible compared to the total cost of the = >> kit. >> >> It is also my understanding that the CPU and FDC are both completely = >> unavailable in anything but PLCC packages.= >> > > Actually, through-hole PLCC sockets exist (I built a number of transputer > boards using them and a roadrunner tool...) I misspoke: the parts are actually QFP as Dave corrected me. However, given that the board's design is for surface mount parts for the CPU, the FDC, and a couple of discretes, it might require a board redesign, which Dave has indicated to me he's not interested in doing at this point (except for fixing a few of the quirks in the previous rev). And I don't blame him. See my earlier comments about N8VEM: if you want through-hole, there's better designs than P112, double that if you want something more anachronistic. P112 is a more modern design using circa 1995 components. I'll repeat my earlier comment: I think we actually have some blank boards from a previous production run. If people really want a 100% DIY kit, I think we can make arrangements. I don't have any parts kits (you'd have to talk to Dave for those), but I could let the boards go for a pretty reasonable price. E-mail me offlist if interested. From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 15:05:57 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:05:57 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> On Jun 21, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > That is basically how I feel to. If I didn't want to assemble it myself, > I'd buy a ready-built , The point of buying the kit is to have some > fun putting it together (which is a relaxation for me). And SMD work is > not that difficult. > It's unlikely I would consider any such kit to be a sensible use of money > at the moment, alas... It is worth noting that Dave and I's experience is that the people who want the P112 kits typically don't want to diddle with SMD components. Not everybody is comfortable with SMD parts (I'm not, and I've been building kits for 30 years), and the P112 was designed to be a painless introduction to kit computers. Many of our customers had built the P112 as their first kit, or at least their first kit since the days RadioShack sold.. radios. P112 is a great introduction to retrocomputing at a low cost of entry (both financial and in assembly skill). That's it's strength, not it's weakness. Speaking for myself, I don't think Dave should change that. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 15:44:45 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:44:45 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: <201006211932.o5LJWPdC000848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Jun 21, 10 03:32:25 pm, Message-ID: <4C1F6CCD.9179.102B714@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jun 2010 at 20:47, Tony Duell wrote: > That is basically how I feel to. If I didn't want to assemble it > myself, I'd buy a ready-built , The point of buying the kit is to > have some fun putting it together (which is a relaxation for me). And > SMD work is not that difficult. For me, it would depend on the package. If the CPU on this thing was, say, 208 pin 0.5 mm pitch TQFP, I would welcome having it pre- mounted. My eyes and coordination aren't what they used to be. If the package was BGA, I would definitely want it pre-mounted. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 21 15:49:01 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 13:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C1FB3F9.9030105@neurotica.com> References: <4C1FB3F9.9030105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100621134645.I11057@shell.lmi.net> > >> I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete > >> kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the > >> board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom > >> already burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit > >> rather than a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. > > > > I tend to pick up more bare boards and partial kits than full kits, > > but that's because I have a well-stocked parts bin. On Mon, 21 Jun 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > Seconded. I'm much more interested in a bare board, perhaps along > with any hard-to-find chips. I've sometimes had difficulty finding some of the NOT hard-to-find chips, and lack of knowledge of what I can get away with substituting, so I sometimes pay a bit extra to get EVERYTHINg together. From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jun 21 15:49:28 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:49:28 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> On 6/21/2010 4:05 PM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > It is worth noting that Dave and I's experience is that the people who want the P112 kits typically don't want to diddle with SMD components. Not everybody is comfortable with SMD parts Amen. Yeah, if I was buying a kit like this, I'd certainly want the surface mount stuff soldered. Requiring the skills and equipment to solder a high pin count QFP device is a barrier to entry. I'd likely specifically avoid ordering a kit if this wasn't already done. Especially where the goal is to introduce people to retrocomputing, in my eyes, there is no other answer. If there are some people that want to practice self-flagellation, then let them take their soldering irons and join opus dei. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 15:51:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:51:35 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> <201006211932.o5LJWPdC000848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4C1FD0D7.3060205@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 3:47 PM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: >>> The proper question is "Why would >> you want to surrender the fun of installing the SMD parts?" > > Because many people have difficulty soldering SMD parts, and we can have a professional robot pick-and-place the parts at a cost that is negligible for us compared to supporting people who will invariably screw that step up. Additionally, being the static-sensitive nature of the parts and their small size, it makes inventory easier for us. > > And for myself, my eyesight is such that I can't even see well enough (at age 40) to solder SMD anymore on a tight board. In the last production run, we had one or two defects, and that was difficult for me to fix: I can't imagine having to solder all the pins and doing it successfully. 41 and no problems here, and I have poor eyesight to begin with. I am 100% convinced that the vast majority of people who have trouble soldering surface-mount components are the ones who say "ah knows howta solder!" and charge in with their 20-year-old, $7 Radio Shack iron and 1/8" diameter solder ("it's just a hobby, I don't need good tools!") and try to solder like it's through-hole, refusing to accept the notion that it's a DIFFERENT TASK and as such requires DIFFERENT TOOLS. For me, surface-mount soldering is far, far easier than through-hole soldering. Most people who actually try it (with the proper equipment) find this to be the case as well. What I'm saying is don't automatically assume that "surface mount is hard", or automatically assume that everyone finds it as distasteful as you do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 15:51:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:51:37 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <00BCE3BE-F70C-4476-9CF8-C2AFAB638D3A@xlisper.com> References: <00BCE3BE-F70C-4476-9CF8-C2AFAB638D3A@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4C1FD0D9.6010907@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 3:30 PM, David Betz wrote: >> I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom already burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit rather than a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. > > The P112 looks pretty interesting. I'd consider a partial kit depending on the price. While I have successfully soldered one SMT part (the FTDI chip on the X0xb0x board), it wasn't fun and I would probably like to try to avoid having to do it again. I think I just lucked out that I didn't fry the chip. I bridged a number of pins and had to clean up with solder wick. Wrong tools. Betcha anything. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 21 15:54:29 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 21:54:29 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> On 21/06/10 19:14, Tony Duell wrote: > Waht was the fleamarket like? Practically nonexistent. Even the bring-and-buy stand (actually the "charity stall" -- three or four tables in an L-shape, all proceeds going to charity) at the 2005 Wakefield RISCOS Show was bigger than that. (Though IIRC this was scrapped or at least severely downsized in the more recent shows; can anyone confirm?) The BP fleamarket seemed to be all BBC Model Bs, Sinclair Spectrums and ZX81s. Starting prices around the ?50 mark..... yeesh. As I understand it, it was all extras from the TNMoC collection, not a bring-and-buy. I'd have expected to see a 3" drive or two, but the closest I saw to that was a Cumana 5.25" dual, an untagged 5.25" full-height external and a couple of Amiga and Sinclair QL 3.5" drives. > I used to frequent > radio rallies, not to get complete transmitters or receivers, but to find > odd bits -- the connector I needed to fit $device, an odd PCB that I knew > would fit the machine I was working on (or that contained ICs I needed), > things like that. Was there anything like that at the VCF? Nope, not even close. I suspect the threat of The Wrath of The Ambulance-Chaser has put paid to most of these. The organisers are just too scared that someone will buy (say) a BBC Master, plug it in and the PSU will go "pop" and dump a ton of smoke into the room. The "hapless and unfortunate victim" then proceeds to sue the event organisers because everything "should have been safety-tested" and the device was "obviously unsafe"... The Barnsley "Great Northern" hamfest is still good though -- they book out one of the two basement-level gyms/sports halls in the Metrodome, and the entire room (a good sized basketball court) is lined with tables. You have to watch out for the good bargains, but you often see really unusual surplus parts you'd never buy new from a supplier. A lot of the vendors have websites or (occasionally) price lists and order forms (remember those? :) ). Half the entries in my contact list are electronics component suppliers I found out about at the Barnsley hamfest. > 'I wanted to change the world, but they wouldn't give me the source code' OK, I'm going to say two things about that: 1) LOL! 2) Want one! > I would wear the jumper my late mother knitted for me. There's at least > one picture of me wearing it on the net, it has a pattern which is > appicable to me (both what I studied and what I enjoy). A visual representation of the Doppler Effect? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 15:56:46 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:56:46 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 4:49 PM, Keith M wrote: >> It is worth noting that Dave and I's experience is that the people who >> want the P112 kits typically don't want to diddle with SMD >> components. Not everybody is comfortable with SMD parts > > Amen. > > Yeah, if I was buying a kit like this, I'd certainly want the surface > mount stuff soldered. Requiring the skills and equipment to solder a > high pin count QFP device is a barrier to entry. I'd likely > specifically avoid ordering a kit if this wasn't already done. > > Especially where the goal is to introduce people to retrocomputing, in > my eyes, there is no other answer. > > If there are some people that want to practice self-flagellation, then > let them take their soldering irons and join opus dei. Oh good heavens. This sort of stuff really just sounds like nothing more than knee-jerk automatic hatred of SMT by people who did what I described in my last message, and it really does become irritating to those of us who know better. Right now I'm sitting here (well, taking a break from it at the moment, actually) soldering sixteen boards with 0.5mm-pitch parts for another open-hardware project, and am having no trouble whatsoever. I find it quite enjoyable and completely trouble-free, and I'm by no means the smartest, best-coordinated, or best-sighted person here. The equipment isn't particularly expensive (despite popular underinformed opinion), and the skills take an afternoon to develop. If you were to actually TRY it, with the right tools, and the right mindset (as in "learning a new skill" rather than trying to treat it like it's through-hole soldering without the holes), I bet you'd love it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Jun 21 15:57:24 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 21:57:24 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <4C1E3CE0.7050006@jfc.org.uk> Message-ID: <4C1FD234.4030701@gifford.co.uk> James Carter wrote: > try flickr instead... > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/45858400 at N00/sets/72157624192120177/ Good stuff! My photos are on Flickr too, here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/sets/72157624323959472/ -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 21 16:05:38 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100621140313.I11057@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 21 Jun 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > If you were to actually TRY it, with the right tools, and the right > mindset (as in "learning a new skill" rather than trying to treat it > like it's through-hole soldering without the holes), I bet you'd love it. My through-hole soldering was terrible until I did a lot of practice (socketing a few bare XT motherboards). I would expect to destroy my first few attempts. Maybe i should practice by trying to desolder and resolder a few "modern" boards From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 16:09:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:09:34 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <20100621140313.I11057@shell.lmi.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <20100621140313.I11057@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C1FD50E.3070909@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 5:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> If you were to actually TRY it, with the right tools, and the right >> mindset (as in "learning a new skill" rather than trying to treat it >> like it's through-hole soldering without the holes), I bet you'd love it. > > My through-hole soldering was terrible until I did a lot of practice > (socketing a few bare XT motherboards). > > I would expect to destroy my first few attempts. Maybe i should practice > by trying to desolder and resolder a few "modern" boards That's an excellent idea. Several companies (Spark Fun comes to mind) sell "practice" boards. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 16:12:03 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:12:03 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C1FD0D7.3060205@neurotica.com> References: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> <201006211932.o5LJWPdC000848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C1FD0D7.3060205@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <387D48E8-7353-46C9-9DC0-31C5A6EAC8C7@feedle.net> On Jun 21, 2010, at 1:51 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > 41 and no problems here, and I have poor eyesight to begin with. > > I am 100% convinced that the vast majority of people who have trouble > soldering surface-mount components are the ones who say "ah knows howta > solder!" and charge in with their 20-year-old, $7 Radio Shack iron and > 1/8" diameter solder ("it's just a hobby, I don't need good tools!") and > try to solder like it's through-hole, refusing to accept the notion that > it's a DIFFERENT TASK and as such requires DIFFERENT TOOLS. I've had the right tools. I don't buy cheap RadioShack soldering irons. I have a very nice digital temperature controlled Weller soldering station with the right tips. I can do it, I just don't like to, and I have a high enough failure rate to make it an exercise in frustration when dealing with large-pin count flat-packs. It does require different skills than through-hole soldering. Not everybody is up to the task. I build on average two-three kits a year: at that pace, SMD just isn't a skill I get enough practice using. I can probably dress and lace telephone and datacom cable faster than you can, I'd wager.. but I wouldn't expect your home network to have all the cables dressed and laced, either, because you probably have never laced cable in your life (I'm assuming you don't work in the telecom sector like I do). Different people have different skills and abilities. Also, not everybody wants to invest in $300 worth of soldering equipment to build a $120 kit. For some people it is just a hobby, they don't need (nor can they justify) spending a lot of money on tools. I agree that the "right tool makes all the difference" in general, but I'm not going to ask the average electronics novice to spend more than the kit is worth on expensive tools they don't really need for anything other than my kit. The whole point here is to create an accessible, entry-level kit... if people have SMD skills and equipment, more power to them. SMD components were designed to be picked-and-placed by robots. By that measure, the "right tool" for the job is an industrial robot designed to pick-and-place SMD parts. I don't have a problem with letting a robot do the hard stuff I can't quite do with 99.999% accuracy. If you can, great. Please enjoy building kits that challenge your skills. That's not what P112 is. From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 16:14:20 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:14:20 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> On Jun 21, 2010, at 1:56 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Right now I'm sitting here (well, taking a > break from it at the moment, actually) soldering sixteen boards with > 0.5mm-pitch parts for another open-hardware project, and am having no > trouble whatsoever. And that's what I think you fail to understand. A lot of people build one-two projects a year, and rarely encounter SMD components in those projects. They don't have the skills, and quite honestly, I don't blame them for not wanting to "learn it." The whole idea behind SMD was to make life easier for robots. Let them do what they do best. Meanwhile, I'll stick to doing human stuff, like arguing passionately on mailing lists about obsolete technologies. From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Jun 21 16:15:51 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 22:15:51 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C1F4702.6040502@mac.com> <4C1FAE9D.5020409@neurotica.com> <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <4C1FD687.6080207@mac.com> On 06/21/2010 20:46, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > > Ah, yes. VCF was its debut. I haven't got a page up yet, but you can > see Andrew's photo at: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/4718559358/ > IMO one of the most interesting projects shown over the weekend. Congratulations on the project and good luck with the debugging Roger From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Jun 21 16:25:23 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 22:25:23 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C1FD8C3.1050805@mac.com> > Practically nonexistent. Even the bring-and-buy stand (actually the > "charity stall" -- three or four tables in an L-shape, all proceeds > going to charity) at the 2005 Wakefield RISCOS Show was bigger than > that. (Though IIRC this was scrapped or at least severely downsized in > the more recent shows; can anyone confirm?) > > The BP fleamarket seemed to be all BBC Model Bs, Sinclair Spectrums > and ZX81s. Starting prices around the ?50 mark..... yeesh. As I > understand it, it was all extras from the TNMoC collection, not a > bring-and-buy. I was dissapointed with this. Apparently the organisers had run out of time to organise it, i for one would have bought a boot (trunk) full of stuff. Personally, i think the future of an electronic/electrical flea market is going to be on uncertain legal ground for any organiser in the UK, perhaps there should be unofficial ones, that way the organiser isn't responsable. rog From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 16:27:04 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:27:04 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> Message-ID: What would Heathkit do? -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 16:30:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:30:35 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <387D48E8-7353-46C9-9DC0-31C5A6EAC8C7@feedle.net> References: <3B2DED6D-7A21-43D7-A7AA-02E6C6FA3E08@feedle.net> <201006211932.o5LJWPdC000848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4C1FD0D7.3060205@neurotica.com> <387D48E8-7353-46C9-9DC0-31C5A6EAC8C7@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C1FD9FB.2010207@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 5:12 PM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: >> I am 100% convinced that the vast majority of people who have trouble >> soldering surface-mount components are the ones who say "ah knows howta >> solder!" and charge in with their 20-year-old, $7 Radio Shack iron and >> 1/8" diameter solder ("it's just a hobby, I don't need good tools!") and >> try to solder like it's through-hole, refusing to accept the notion that >> it's a DIFFERENT TASK and as such requires DIFFERENT TOOLS. > > I've had the right tools. I don't buy cheap RadioShack soldering irons. I have a very nice digital temperature controlled Weller soldering station with the right tips. I can do it, I just don't like to, and I have a high enough failure rate to make it an exercise in frustration when dealing with large-pin count flat-packs. > > It does require different skills than through-hole soldering. Not everybody is up to the task. I build on average two-three kits a year: at that pace, SMD just isn't a skill I get enough practice using. I can probably dress and lace telephone and datacom cable faster than you can, I'd wager.. but I wouldn't expect your home network to have all the cables dressed and laced, either, because you probably have never laced cable in your life (I'm assuming you don't work in the telecom sector like I do). Different people have different skills and abilities. Well ok, I'll grant you that. I'm just saying, if I can do it, most anyone can. And I've helped many people get (re-)started in SMT soldering with near 100% good results. > Also, not everybody wants to invest in $300 worth of soldering equipment to build a $120 kit. It's really not that expensive. > SMD components were designed to be picked-and-placed by robots. No they weren't, not originally. A lot of them (beyond prototyping) are now, I'll grant that. But I build SMT boards every day, and I'm no robot. ;) I will have a pick-and-place machine here eventually, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 16:33:32 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:33:32 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 5:14 PM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: >> Right now I'm sitting here (well, taking a >> break from it at the moment, actually) soldering sixteen boards with >> 0.5mm-pitch parts for another open-hardware project, and am having no >> trouble whatsoever. > > And that's what I think you fail to understand. A lot of people build one-two projects a year, and rarely encounter SMD components in those projects. They don't have the skills, and quite honestly, I don't blame them for not wanting to "learn it." The whole idea behind SMD was to make life easier for robots. Let them do what they do best. I have no problem with that at all. If they DON'T WANT to, that's fine. What I have a problem with is the knee-jerk reaction of "SMT == HARD", which is complete and utter bullshit. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 16:34:39 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:34:39 -0400 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FD8C3.1050805@mac.com> References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> <4C1FD8C3.1050805@mac.com> Message-ID: > Personally, i think the future of an electronic/electrical flea market is > going to be on uncertain legal ground for any organiser in the UK, perhaps > there should be unofficial ones, that way the organiser isn't responsable. We have been hearing the same kinds of "uncertain legal ground" stuff in the US for years, and pretty much nothing has ever happened. Sort of like the mythical tax man that shows up at the fests - everyone has heard of him, but nobody has ever seen him. I figure I am closing in on my 500th (yes, five hundred) hamfest, so I have my ear pretty close to the ground. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 16:36:10 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:36:10 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C1FDB4A.2020607@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 5:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > What would Heathkit do? ROFL! An excellent point. :) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 16:40:42 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:40:42 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jun 21, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I have no problem with that at all. If they DON'T WANT to, that's > fine. What I have a problem with is the knee-jerk reaction of "SMT == > HARD", which is complete and utter bullshit. Not everybody has access to a teacher as patient and as learned as you. For most of us, we've only had to learn by trying it and failing a lot of the time, and we've found that SMT is hard. If nothing else, the small component sizes are more difficult to work with, and the cramped conditions on the PCB require attention to detail and diligence above what the average through-hole kit typically demands. There exists down the electronics kits aisle of Fry's Electronics all manner of doodads designed to make SMT skills easier to uptake and use. If it was so easy, there'd be no need for such products. It's great you found it easy, and have the skills to teach others. Don't call "bullshit" just because you've found it isn't hard. Others have found it hard, and you can't discount their experiences. You can, however, figure out how to market the fact you've found it easy, and I'd bet the electronics hobbyists and amateur radio operators of the world would thank you financially for your help. From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jun 21 16:41:41 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:41:41 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> Message-ID: <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> On Jun 21, 2010, at 2:27 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > What would Heathkit do? Close their retail stores and essentially be a reseller of educational kits before fading into absolute irrelevancy. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 21 16:43:47 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 22:43:47 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: References: <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> from "Andy Holt" at Jun 21, 10 10:44:50 am Message-ID: <001701cb118a$d7d59950$8780cbf0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 21 June 2010 19:15 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: photos from VCF UK etc > > This may well me my last post to the list for many reasons... > > Of course I did not go to to VCF-UK, and after seeing the photos, etc, > I > think I meade the right decision. > > > Having looked at many of the photos on flickr, etc, I think you need to > distinguish between the stuff which is at BP all the time (the NMoC > etc) > and the stuff that private collectors brought along specifically for > the > VCF. > > Several people have commented on the Colossus rebuild and the talk, for > example, but I don't consider that to be specifically part of the VCF. > > Of the enthusiast displays, it appears most, if not all, were 1980s UK > home micros, often running commercial games of the time. Which to me > seems like something to attract the general public, not something that > a > classic ocmputer fanatic would rave over. Were there any minicomputers > or > workstations brought along by enthusiasts? I too was a little disappointed that most of the exhibits concentrated on gaming, as this is not something that interests me personally. There was one DEC display (where I spent most of my time) and Jim Austin brought some of his things too. There was also Lawrence Wilkinson's display which I have already commented on (impressive and interesting). This is not to say I would not go again, I would. But next time I think I would bring some of my own bits and pieces to show (not that exciting for people on this list, just MicroVAX II and other MicroVAXen). I didn't this time around because I went to the DEC Legacy event in April and could not justify to my family another weekend away. Perhaps if more people on this list with different things to show went along then it might make for a more varied event. > I suspect the PERQs you > mentioned were the ones that were in the NMoC anyway I failed to find these, and I think they also have a Cray on display, which I also failed to find. I should have asked someone I suppose. > (As an aside, if I > had been coming, and if I had had time to prepare it, I might well have > brought alon a PERQ 2T4, a machine which is _not_ in the NMoC. Or at > least one Philips minicomputer. Or HP calculators from discrete > transsitor to 68000). > > Waht was the fleamarket like? Again, not sure if I found it, because the only thing I saw was a little disappointing, but there again I was there on the Sunday so may have missed the good stuff. > The photos I've seen of it showed (again) > 1980s micros selling at what I consider ot be high-ish prices -- > certainly more than I would pay for such machines. I used to frequent > radio rallies, not to get complete transmitters or receivers, but to > find > odd bits -- the connector I needed to fit $device, an odd PCB that I > knew > would fit the machine I was working on (or that contained ICs I > needed), > things like that. Was there anything like that at the VCF? > > > one of the two visitors wearing T-shirts with the motto: > > > > There's no place like > > 127.0.0.1 > > I saw a girl (OK, female homo sapiens, in her twenties, I guess, what > is > the acceptable term for that) wearing what I believe is called a > 'hoodie' > the other day. On the back it said > > 'I wanted to change the world, but they wouldn't give me the source > code' > > Perhaps fortunately (since i don't really know how to interact with > females), I was on an omnibus and she wasn't, so I couldn't ask her > about > it... > > > I should obviously have found my "Happiness is Honeywell" Snoopy > Tshirt > > instead! > > I would wear the jumper my late mother knitted for me. There's at least > one picture of me wearing it on the net, it has a pattern which is > appicable to me (both what I studied and what I enjoy). > > -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 16:46:45 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:46:45 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C1FDDC5.4010607@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 5:41 PM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: >> What would Heathkit do? > > Close their retail stores and essentially be a reseller of educational kits before fading into absolute irrelevancy. *sniffle* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ats at offog.org Mon Jun 21 17:23:18 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:23:18 +0100 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: (A. Christoff Baumann's message of "Mon, 21 Jun 2010 14:40:42 -0700") References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: "A. Christoff Baumann" writes: > Not everybody has access to a teacher [...] That's the important thing -- the best way to learn how to handle SMD soldering is to find someone who already knows how and watch them carefully for a while! I'm pretty good at through-hole soldering, but I really struggled with SMD until a friend spent a couple of hours showing me the tricks (in particular, how to use the surface tension of solder blobs to your advantage). These days I find it just as easy as through-hole soldering, even with shaky hands and a fairly modest solder station; it's just a different set of techniques. -- Adam Sampson From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 16:44:34 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 17:44:34 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> Message-ID: >> What would Heathkit do? > > Close their retail stores and essentially be a reseller of educational kits before fading into absolute irrelevancy. You missed the point, or you are ignoring it. The question posed is actually serious. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 21 17:30:57 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:30:57 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FD8C3.1050805@mac.com> References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> <4C1FD8C3.1050805@mac.com> Message-ID: <4C1FE821.9010808@philpem.me.uk> On 21/06/10 22:25, Roger Pugh wrote: > Personally, i think the future of an electronic/electrical flea market > is going to be on uncertain legal ground for any organiser in the UK, > perhaps there should be unofficial ones, that way the organiser isn't > responsable. There's always the option of cutting the plug off. Then put a sign on the wall like this: ALL items on this stand are sold as ORNAMENTAL and NON WORKING. Electronic products are SOLD AS NON-FUNCTIONAL. All equipment purchased should be safety tested and examined by a qualified person. ALL SALES FINAL, ITEMS SOLD AS-IS. That makes it pretty clear what the intentions of the sale are... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Jun 21 17:41:52 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:41:52 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FE821.9010808@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> <4C1FD8C3.1050805@mac.com> <4C1FE821.9010808@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C1FEAB0.1060205@mac.com> On 06/21/2010 23:30, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 21/06/10 22:25, Roger Pugh wrote: >> Personally, i think the future of an electronic/electrical flea market >> is going to be on uncertain legal ground for any organiser in the UK, >> perhaps there should be unofficial ones, that way the organiser isn't >> responsable. > > There's always the option of cutting the plug off. > > Then put a sign on the wall like this: > > ALL items on this stand are sold as ORNAMENTAL and NON WORKING. > Electronic products are SOLD AS NON-FUNCTIONAL. All equipment > purchased should be safety tested and examined by a qualified > person. > ALL SALES FINAL, ITEMS SOLD AS-IS. > > That makes it pretty clear what the intentions of the sale are... > In the wine collecting world, so am told as i tend to drink instead of collect, the sale is of the bottle, not the contents of the bottle! This way there is no comeback because private individuals are selling alcohol. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 21 17:50:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:50:59 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C1F6CCD.9179.102B714@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201006211932.o5LJWPdC000848@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, , <4C1F6CCD.9179.102B714@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C1F8A63.22924.1764819@cclist.sydex.com> A quick OT question for you steady-of-hand and sharp-of-eye folks, but related to the SMT topic discussed here. I need to jumper a couple of pins on the CPU (Celeron) FCPGA (Socket 370) using #30 AWG wire-wrap wire. How the heck does one do it? My hands just don't seem to be steady enough. --Chuck From marvin at west.net Mon Jun 21 17:59:47 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:59:47 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits Message-ID: <4C1FEEE3.4000401@west.net> Wrong tools is sometimes just an excuse. I routinely solder SMD chips with .025" pin spacing with a soldering iron with about a 3/32" tip. Granted it is not my first choice, but my other iron died, and I'll use what I have. Since it works, I don't have a lot of incentive to buy the proper sized tip even though it makes soldering a LOT easier. My first choice would be a Metcal with a proper sized tip! And if I were in better shape financially and/or project wise, I'd take the complete P112 kit just for the fun of soldering the SMD components in place. Marvin >> The P112 looks pretty interesting. I'd consider a partial kit >> depending on the price. While I have successfully soldered one SMT >> part (the FTDI chip on the X0xb0x board), it wasn't fun and I would >> probably like to try to avoid having to do it again. I think I just >> lucked out that I didn't fry the chip. I bridged a number of pins >> and had to clean up with solder wick. > > Wrong tools. Betcha anything. > > -Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 21 18:12:34 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:12:34 -0400 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C1F4702.6040502@mac.com> <4C1FAE9D.5020409@neurotica.com> <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <4C1FF1E2.80500@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 3:46 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Mon, 2010-06-21 at 14:25 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 6/21/10 7:03 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: >>> I quite fancy an IBM 360 / 30 FPGA board now i know a little about big >>> iron! >> >> Urr? Is someone working on that? > > Ah, yes. VCF was its debut. I haven't got a page up yet, but you can > see Andrew's photo at: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/4718559358/ > > Basically, it's a 1000K gate Spartan 3 which contains the microcode > store (2k x 55) and 8k x 9 of main memory. Front panel switches are > physical rotaries and pushbuttons; blinkenlights are via a VGA display > for now. > > Right now it fails the microcode startup diagnostics with a main memory > parity error, probably due to a race condition somewhere (the > memory /used/ to work). > > Once that's sorted, the next step is to get it executing 360 code. Then > adding virtual peripherals to the multiplexor and selector channels. > Then taking a 2311 DOS/360 image, and booting. Simple! > > Once I get the diagnostic stuff sorted I'll put an image or the VHDL up > for anyone that wants to have a go at programming it into one of the > Digilent S3 boards, or perhaps porting it to something similar. (/me faints) Thank you SO much for doing this, and releasing it! I happen to have a Digilent S3. I'll dig it out and dust it off. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 18:47:01 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:47:01 -0500 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C1FF9F5.5020000@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > The BP fleamarket seemed to be all BBC Model Bs, Sinclair Spectrums and > ZX81s. Starting prices around the ?50 mark..... yeesh. I raised that same viewpoint on the NMoC mailing list a few weeks ago; it's just too much for something that can regularly be found [in the UK] for zero cost with just a little effort. > As I understand > it, it was all extras from the TNMoC collection, not a bring-and-buy. I believe so, yes. I'm not quite sure how "we know we'll never need this in the future" was arrived at. > I'd have expected to see a 3" drive or two They never had many when I was there on site, at least - the odd +3 speccy, Tatung Einstein etc. with them built-in, of course, but there wasn't really a spares stock and certainly no surplus. > I suspect the threat of The Wrath of The Ambulance-Chaser has put paid > to most of these. The organisers are just too scared that someone will > buy (say) a BBC Master, plug it in and the PSU will go "pop" and dump a > ton of smoke into the room. The "hapless and unfortunate victim" then > proceeds to sue the event organisers because everything "should have > been safety-tested" and the device was "obviously unsafe"... There was some mention of it, but buggered if I can find it in the archives now :-( >> 'I wanted to change the world, but they wouldn't give me the source code' > > OK, I'm going to say two things about that: > 1) LOL! Plus there's no backup ;) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 18:47:55 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 18:47:55 -0500 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1FFA2B.7060607@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > This may well me my last post to the list for many reasons... You shall be missed if it is, just so you know. cheers Jules From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 18:58:35 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 00:58:35 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FF9F5.5020000@gmail.com> References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> <4C1FF9F5.5020000@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 22 June 2010 00:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> The BP fleamarket seemed to be all BBC Model Bs, Sinclair Spectrums and >> ZX81s. Starting prices around the ?50 mark..... yeesh. >> > > I raised that same viewpoint on the NMoC mailing list a few weeks ago; it's > just too much for something that can regularly be found [in the UK] for zero > cost with just a little effort. > I would appear to have been binned from the mailing list, it was facebook that mithered me about the festival but too late for me to do anything about it. Things to have taken - KIM1, kit-built NASCOM1, Tangerine Microtan65, Ohio Superboard II, Jupiter ACE, Amiga 1000, unassembled ZX81 kit, original 16K Spectrum etc etc. Oh well. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 21 19:51:28 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:51:28 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> <4C1FF9F5.5020000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C200910.1000705@philpem.me.uk> On 22/06/10 00:58, Adrian Graham wrote: [TNMoC mailing list] > I would appear to have been binned from the mailing list, it was facebook > that mithered me about the festival but too late for me to do anything about > it. I emailed in within a few days of the original announcement and asked to be put on the mailing list. Didn't hear squat... > Things to have taken - KIM1, kit-built NASCOM1, Tangerine Microtan65, > Ohio Superboard II, Jupiter ACE, Amiga 1000, unassembled ZX81 kit, original > 16K Spectrum etc etc. Oh well. ... BBC Domesday system.. :) There was a rep from a computer museum in Cambridge who brought one of those down to show off. Always neat to see one of those still going. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Jun 22 00:02:06 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:02:06 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: References: <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> from "Andy Holt" at Jun21, 10 10:44:50 am Message-ID: I did not attend either but went to my local amateur radio clubs boot sale. I picked up a DEC Multia for ?5.00. It was marked ?10.00 but when the guy selling it said "It's not a PC" I offered ?5.00 and got it! Somebody had added a 2.5" 4Gb IDE drive. It had been installed using one screw and double sided sticky tape! They will take them but there are issues booting from them. I mounted it correctly pending its removal and the installation of a DEC RZ series 1" high SCSI drive. Next job was to remove the battery (4.5V Alkaline) and replace it with three 1.5V Duracell AA's wired in series and insulated with tape. Multias will never boot with a flat battery. It should then be a case of plug in the external DEC SCSI CD drive, boot the ALPHA VMS CD and install VMS7.3 So who had the better day? Me or those who went to BP? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 21 June 2010 19:15 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: photos from VCF UK etc This may well me my last post to the list for many reasons... Of course I did not go to to VCF-UK, and after seeing the photos, etc, I think I meade the right decision. > Other than PDP-11s, the minicomputer era was practically ignored; Perqs were > the only obvious examples of the workstation era; the disappearance of items > from the primary mainframe era is easier to understand - but it would have > been nice to have had at least one information board on the Ferranti Atlas > that innovated so many of the things we now take for granted. Having looked at many of the photos on flickr, etc, I think you need to distinguish between the stuff which is at BP all the time (the NMoC etc) and the stuff that private collectors brought along specifically for the VCF. Several people have commented on the Colossus rebuild and the talk, for example, but I don't consider that to be specifically part of the VCF. Of the enthusiast displays, it appears most, if not all, were 1980s UK home micros, often running commercial games of the time. Which to me seems like something to attract the general public, not something that a classic ocmputer fanatic would rave over. Were there any minicomputers or workstations brought along by enthusiasts? I suspect the PERQs you mentioned were the ones that were in the NMoC anyway (As an aside, if I had been coming, and if I had had time to prepare it, I might well have brought alon a PERQ 2T4, a machine which is _not_ in the NMoC. Or at least one Philips minicomputer. Or HP calculators from discrete transsitor to 68000). Waht was the fleamarket like? The photos I've seen of it showed (again) 1980s micros selling at what I consider ot be high-ish prices -- certainly more than I would pay for such machines. I used to frequent radio rallies, not to get complete transmitters or receivers, but to find odd bits -- the connector I needed to fit $device, an odd PCB that I knew would fit the machine I was working on (or that contained ICs I needed), things like that. Was there anything like that at the VCF? > one of the two visitors wearing T-shirts with the motto: > > There's no place like > 127.0.0.1 I saw a girl (OK, female homo sapiens, in her twenties, I guess, what is the acceptable term for that) wearing what I believe is called a 'hoodie' the other day. On the back it said 'I wanted to change the world, but they wouldn't give me the source code' Perhaps fortunately (since i don't really know how to interact with females), I was on an omnibus and she wasn't, so I couldn't ask her about it... > I should obviously have found my "Happiness is Honeywell" Snoopy Tshirt > instead! I would wear the jumper my late mother knitted for me. There's at least one picture of me wearing it on the net, it has a pattern which is appicable to me (both what I studied and what I enjoy). -tony From bqt at softjar.se Mon Jun 21 17:07:17 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 15:07:17 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C1FE295.5020504@softjar.se> "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: > Hi there, > > Brad Parker just posted about his FPGA implementation of a PDP-11, > which boots so far RT-11, RSTS V4, BSD 2.9 and Unix V6. There was a > question how fast an FPGA solution might be compared to a PDP-11/93. > > I've also implemented a PDP-11 on an FPGA. It is a full 11/70 with > split I&D, MMU and cache. No FPP so far. Available peripherals are so > far DL11, LP11, KW11L, PC11, and RK11. All I/O is channeled over via > 'remote-register-interface' onto a single bi-directional byte stream > interface, so the FPGA board needs a backend PC with a server program > to handle the I/O requests. Cool! Nice! > The design is FPGA proven, runs on Digilent S3 and NEXYS2 boards, the > former with 1 MB 10 ns SRAM, the later with 16 MB 70ns PSDRAM. > > Resource consumption is > S3 board xc3s1000 2471 slices or 33% > NEXYS2 board xc3s1200e 2624 slices or 30% > > The implementation was verified against many XXDP maindec's. There are > some open issues, especially some details of trap and double error > handling aren't correct yet. In practice this is of little importance, > the FPGA system happily boots and runs BSD 2.11, a system using 22bit > addressing and split I&D space. {Note: you need patch 447 for 2.11BSD > to get FPP emulation and RK support working} Any plans on the FPP? It would be really nice and useful to have. As for traps and double errors, feel free to ask. I don't know if I have all the answers, but I might be able to figure them out. Besides, I also have access to one (or three) functional 11/70 machines. > On Performance: The design runs at 50 MHz. I've run parts of the > Byte Unix benchmark on the FPGA systems. Given that the FPP is only > emulated by the 2.11BSD kernel it makes only sense to look at the integer > benchmarks. The Dhrystone benchmark 'dhry2reg' gives about '11500 lps' > on both boards. For comparison see Michael Schneiders page > http://www.vaxcluster.de/mambo/bench2.php?mach=pdp11 which gives about > '830 lps' for a 11/53. There is little Dhrystone difference between > the two boards despite the very different memory access times. The > 8 kB cache with 32 bit cache lines really helps on the NEXYS2 board. The 11/53 is a really slow machine. Not that helpful to compare with. But you seem to push a nice number anyway. But 50MHz... The J11 in an 11/9x machine runs at 20 MHz, which would suggest that you should only be able to push about 2.5 times the performance, unless you do some more clever tricks. (The 11/9x machine runs all memory as cache.) > I'm in the middle of homogenizing some internal interfaces and of some > code cleanup, also the backend handler needs a re-write in C++ (currently > perl). When that's done I'll make the whole package (VHDL sources, test > benches, backend) available on 'OpenCores'. > > Finally a comment to Dave Mitton's remark >> > Now what would be really cool would be to make 4 CPUs and re-create >> > an 11/74 quad. >> > http://www.miim.com/faq/hardware/multipro.html#castor *Sigh* I wonder if anyone is ever going to be able to set Bruce Mitchell right on his facts. CASTOR didn't disappear. I talked with Dave Carroll about it not so many years ago, and the machine was still around, altough at that time with a hardware problem causing it to be down. (There are plenty of other small errors on Bruce Mitchells pages as well, but from my small dealings with him in the past, he don't seem to be interested in listening.) > The reason why I picked a 11/70 and not a J11 as target is because my > goal is a 11/74. I've implemented the IIST already and tested against > the IIST Diagnostic I could find in XXDP (riiab0). A dual core will > fit into a single xc3s1200e of the NEXYS2 board. The work needed is > quite clear and doable (changes on cache, mmu, and cpu core for asrb). > However, I've no plans to implement the CIS, so it will always be a > subset of a 11/74. But for sure fun to do and run. You do know that the J11 is already designed for mP usage, except that DECs testing of that was even more secret than the 11/74? The 11/74 definitely don't need CIS though. I don't think any prototype 11/74 even had it. It was planned for the next generation of the machine, that never got built. Anyway, it was to be an option for the CPU as far as I know. Just as FPP. IIST is needed for RSX to be happy (the only OS that supports the 11/74), and you also need to implement parts of the memory bus behaviour with interlocking. You can ignore the MK11 box CSRs, even though it will look a little funny, but you do need separate DL11s for each CPU core, along with the rest of the I/O bus, or else things will probably not work. The 11/74 is a shared memory machine, but not shared I/O bus. Johnny From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jun 21 18:03:22 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:03:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2010, David Griffith wrote: > > I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete > kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the > board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom already > burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit rather than > a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. I'm not keen on SMD soldering and would want all the parts together. Put me down for a complete kit. Steve -- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 18:15:11 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:15:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need a k/b or 2 for a DEC Rainbow, and docs/warez for a Canon VP3000 In-Reply-To: <4C1F2CD1.2351.8C6D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <262352.66954.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/21/10, Chuck Guzis wrote: Maybe you'll > let the list know > what lurks under the hood. sho' 'nuff. Sho' will! Gimme time, gimme time... From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Jun 22 01:09:52 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:09:52 +0200 Subject: partial P112 kits, now handsoldering QFP's In-Reply-To: References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C2053B0.1040506@bluewin.ch> On 06/22/2010 12:23 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > "A. Christoff Baumann" writes: > > >> Not everybody has access to a teacher [...] >> > That's the important thing -- the best way to learn how to handle SMD > soldering is to find someone who already knows how and watch them > carefully for a while! > Any recommendations for instructional videos on this subject ( i.e. handsoldering QFP's, maybe even BGA's ) ? Jos Dreesen From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Jun 22 01:30:20 2010 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:30:20 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C1FE295.5020504@softjar.se> References: <4C1FE295.5020504@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C20587C.7070105@mindspring.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: > >> The reason why I picked a 11/70 and not a J11 as target is because my >> goal is a 11/74. I've implemented the IIST already and tested against >> the IIST Diagnostic I could find in XXDP (riiab0). A dual core will >> fit into a single xc3s1200e of the NEXYS2 board. The work needed is >> quite clear and doable (changes on cache, mmu, and cpu core for asrb). >> However, I've no plans to implement the CIS, so it will always be a >> subset of a 11/74. But for sure fun to do and run. > > You do know that the J11 is already designed for mP usage, except that > DECs testing of that was even more secret than the 11/74? > > The 11/74 definitely don't need CIS though. I don't think any > prototype 11/74 even had it. It was planned for the next generation of > the machine, that never got built. Anyway, it was to be an option for > the CPU as far as I know. Just as FPP. Here's a front panel from a 'real 11/74', the uniprocessor one with CIS: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg Note the CIS uADDRS and other CIS status lights selectable on the rotary switch on the right. The marketing dinks appropriated the 11/74 moniker for the wanna-be 11/70mp program because '11/74' sounded better for a 4 way MP system. After the 11/74 CIS COBOL benchmarks came in, the native PDP-11 CIS implementation on the 11/74 blew the 11/780 benchmarks away. DEC marketing did not like this; it made selling business customers the just released 11/780 more difficult. The decision was made to kill the 11/74 CIS option the day we released it to manufacturing in favor of the new VAX system. Johnny is right, the 11/74 option was a multiboard set (just like the FPP option) that could be plugged into the new 11/74 backplane (which was an 11/70 backplane with all the CPU and FPP slots pushed down by four to make room for the CIS option in the first slots). I wish I had saved more documentation (print sets, microcode listings, etc) but to my knowledge none of this survives for the 11/74 CIS. Only my front plex panel which I took as a souvenir. I was one of the three engineers who wrote the microcode for the CIS option subsystem (total of 4K words of 96bit wide horizontal microcode). Don > > IIST is needed for RSX to be happy (the only OS that supports the > 11/74), and you also need to implement parts of the memory bus > behaviour with interlocking. You can ignore the MK11 box CSRs, even > though it will look a little funny, but you do need separate DL11s for > each CPU core, along with the rest of the I/O bus, or else things will > probably not work. The 11/74 is a shared memory machine, but not > shared I/O bus. > > Johnny > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Jun 22 01:35:41 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 07:35:41 +0100 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C1FE295.5020504@softjar.se> References: <4C1FE295.5020504@softjar.se> Message-ID: How difficult would it be to extend one of these FGPA PDP-11's to be put on a quad DEC board and be a plug in replacement for say an 11/93 or 11/94 CPU. (M8981-AA OR 11/91-BA)? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 21 June 2010 23:07 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: > Hi there, > > Brad Parker just posted about his FPGA implementation of a PDP-11, > which boots so far RT-11, RSTS V4, BSD 2.9 and Unix V6. There was a > question how fast an FPGA solution might be compared to a PDP-11/93. > > I've also implemented a PDP-11 on an FPGA. It is a full 11/70 with > split I&D, MMU and cache. No FPP so far. Available peripherals are so > far DL11, LP11, KW11L, PC11, and RK11. All I/O is channeled over via > 'remote-register-interface' onto a single bi-directional byte stream > interface, so the FPGA board needs a backend PC with a server program > to handle the I/O requests. Cool! Nice! > The design is FPGA proven, runs on Digilent S3 and NEXYS2 boards, the > former with 1 MB 10 ns SRAM, the later with 16 MB 70ns PSDRAM. > > Resource consumption is > S3 board xc3s1000 2471 slices or 33% > NEXYS2 board xc3s1200e 2624 slices or 30% > > The implementation was verified against many XXDP maindec's. There are > some open issues, especially some details of trap and double error > handling aren't correct yet. In practice this is of little importance, > the FPGA system happily boots and runs BSD 2.11, a system using 22bit > addressing and split I&D space. {Note: you need patch 447 for 2.11BSD > to get FPP emulation and RK support working} Any plans on the FPP? It would be really nice and useful to have. As for traps and double errors, feel free to ask. I don't know if I have all the answers, but I might be able to figure them out. Besides, I also have access to one (or three) functional 11/70 machines. > On Performance: The design runs at 50 MHz. I've run parts of the > Byte Unix benchmark on the FPGA systems. Given that the FPP is only > emulated by the 2.11BSD kernel it makes only sense to look at the integer > benchmarks. The Dhrystone benchmark 'dhry2reg' gives about '11500 lps' > on both boards. For comparison see Michael Schneiders page > http://www.vaxcluster.de/mambo/bench2.php?mach=pdp11 which gives about > '830 lps' for a 11/53. There is little Dhrystone difference between > the two boards despite the very different memory access times. The > 8 kB cache with 32 bit cache lines really helps on the NEXYS2 board. The 11/53 is a really slow machine. Not that helpful to compare with. But you seem to push a nice number anyway. But 50MHz... The J11 in an 11/9x machine runs at 20 MHz, which would suggest that you should only be able to push about 2.5 times the performance, unless you do some more clever tricks. (The 11/9x machine runs all memory as cache.) > I'm in the middle of homogenizing some internal interfaces and of some > code cleanup, also the backend handler needs a re-write in C++ (currently > perl). When that's done I'll make the whole package (VHDL sources, test > benches, backend) available on 'OpenCores'. > > Finally a comment to Dave Mitton's remark >> > Now what would be really cool would be to make 4 CPUs and re-create >> > an 11/74 quad. >> > http://www.miim.com/faq/hardware/multipro.html#castor *Sigh* I wonder if anyone is ever going to be able to set Bruce Mitchell right on his facts. CASTOR didn't disappear. I talked with Dave Carroll about it not so many years ago, and the machine was still around, altough at that time with a hardware problem causing it to be down. (There are plenty of other small errors on Bruce Mitchells pages as well, but from my small dealings with him in the past, he don't seem to be interested in listening.) > The reason why I picked a 11/70 and not a J11 as target is because my > goal is a 11/74. I've implemented the IIST already and tested against > the IIST Diagnostic I could find in XXDP (riiab0). A dual core will > fit into a single xc3s1200e of the NEXYS2 board. The work needed is > quite clear and doable (changes on cache, mmu, and cpu core for asrb). > However, I've no plans to implement the CIS, so it will always be a > subset of a 11/74. But for sure fun to do and run. You do know that the J11 is already designed for mP usage, except that DECs testing of that was even more secret than the 11/74? The 11/74 definitely don't need CIS though. I don't think any prototype 11/74 even had it. It was planned for the next generation of the machine, that never got built. Anyway, it was to be an option for the CPU as far as I know. Just as FPP. IIST is needed for RSX to be happy (the only OS that supports the 11/74), and you also need to implement parts of the memory bus behaviour with interlocking. You can ignore the MK11 box CSRs, even though it will look a little funny, but you do need separate DL11s for each CPU core, along with the rest of the I/O bus, or else things will probably not work. The 11/74 is a shared memory machine, but not shared I/O bus. Johnny From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Jun 22 01:56:41 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:56:41 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/21/10 4:03 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > On Mon, 21 Jun 2010, David Griffith wrote: > >> >> I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete >> kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the >> board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom already >> burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit rather than >> a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. > > I'm not keen on SMD soldering and would want all the parts together. Put > me down for a complete kit. > > Steve > Is there room on the board for sockets for the plcc's? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 22 02:04:13 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 00:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2010, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 6/21/10 4:03 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > >> On Mon, 21 Jun 2010, David Griffith wrote: >> >>> I'm pondering making two types of P112 kits . First there is the complete >>> kit and then there would be a partial kit. The partial kit contains the >>> board, surface-mounts already mounted, and memory chips with boot rom already >>> burned in. How many of you would be interested in a partial kit rather than >>> a complete kit? I'm not sure of the prices yet. >> >> I'm not keen on SMD soldering and would want all the parts together. Put >> me down for a complete kit. > > Is there room on the board for sockets for the plcc's? No. These are QFPs. The footprint is very different from a PLCC. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 22 02:05:44 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:05:44 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: References: <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> from "Andy Holt" at Jun21, 10 10:44:50 am Message-ID: <000901cb11d9$568ba980$03a2fc80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Would you say that a radio rally was a potential good source for computer equipment for someone who is not interested in radio, or were you just lucky? I have had a look to see what is on in my area and there is a radio rally coming up near me quite soon and I am wondering if it would be worth going along. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RodSmallwood > Sent: 22 June 2010 06:02 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: photos from VCF UK etc > > I did not attend either but went to my local amateur radio clubs boot > sale. > I picked up a DEC Multia for ?5.00. It was marked ?10.00 but when the > guy > selling it said "It's not a PC" I offered ?5.00 and got it! > > Somebody had added a 2.5" 4Gb IDE drive. It had been installed using > one > screw and double sided sticky tape! They will take them but there are > issues booting from them. I mounted it correctly pending its removal > and the > installation of a DEC RZ series 1" high SCSI drive. > > Next job was to remove the battery (4.5V Alkaline) and replace it with > three > 1.5V Duracell AA's wired in series and insulated with tape. Multias > will > never boot with a flat battery. > > It should then be a case of plug in the external DEC SCSI CD drive, > boot the > ALPHA VMS CD and install VMS7.3 > > So who had the better day? Me or those who went to BP? > > Rod > > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jun 22 02:34:06 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:34:06 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C20587C.7070105@mindspring.com> References: <4C1FE295.5020504@softjar.se> <4C20587C.7070105@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <8e2f4af516dc576f938ed2ec64025cf0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: >> >>> The reason why I picked a 11/70 and not a J11 as target is because my >>> goal is a 11/74. I've implemented the IIST already and tested against >>> the IIST Diagnostic I could find in XXDP (riiab0). A dual core will >>> fit into a single xc3s1200e of the NEXYS2 board. The work needed is >>> quite clear and doable (changes on cache, mmu, and cpu core for asrb). >>> However, I've no plans to implement the CIS, so it will always be a >>> subset of a 11/74. But for sure fun to do and run. >> >> You do know that the J11 is already designed for mP usage, except that >> DECs testing of that was even more secret than the 11/74? >> >> The 11/74 definitely don't need CIS though. I don't think any >> prototype 11/74 even had it. It was planned for the next generation of >> the machine, that never got built. Anyway, it was to be an option for >> the CPU as far as I know. Just as FPP. > > Here's a front panel from a 'real 11/74', the uniprocessor one with > CIS: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg > > Note the CIS uADDRS and other CIS status lights selectable on the rotary > switch on the right. > > The marketing dinks appropriated the 11/74 moniker for the wanna-be > 11/70mp program because '11/74' sounded better for a 4 way MP system. > Ahh, yes marketing..... > After the 11/74 CIS COBOL benchmarks came in, the native PDP-11 CIS > implementation on the 11/74 blew the 11/780 benchmarks away. DEC > marketing did not like this; it made selling business customers the just > released 11/780 more difficult. The decision was made to kill the 11/74 > CIS option the day we released it to manufacturing in favor of the new > VAX system. > > Johnny is right, the 11/74 option was a multiboard set (just like the > FPP option) that could be plugged into the new 11/74 backplane (which > was an 11/70 backplane with all the CPU and FPP slots pushed down by > four to make room for the CIS option in the first slots). How was this achived? By reducing the Massbus card space by 4 boards so 3 interface sections were available? Or by redesigning the processor in such a way that there were less boards needed? Ed > > I wish I had saved more documentation (print sets, microcode listings, > etc) but to my knowledge none of this survives for the 11/74 CIS. Only > my front plex panel which I took as a souvenir. > > I was one of the three engineers who wrote the microcode for the CIS > option subsystem (total of 4K words of 96bit wide horizontal microcode). > > Don > >> >> IIST is needed for RSX to be happy (the only OS that supports the >> 11/74), and you also need to implement parts of the memory bus >> behaviour with interlocking. You can ignore the MK11 box CSRs, even >> though it will look a little funny, but you do need separate DL11s for >> each CPU core, along with the rest of the I/O bus, or else things will >> probably not work. The 11/74 is a shared memory machine, but not >> shared I/O bus. >> >> Johnny >> >> > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 22 03:25:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 01:25:07 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits, now handsoldering QFP's In-Reply-To: <4C2053B0.1040506@bluewin.ch> References: , , <4C2053B0.1040506@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4C2010F3.9631.383EA3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2010 at 8:09, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Any recommendations for instructional videos on this subject ( i.e. > handsoldering QFP's, maybe even BGA's ) ? There are several YouTube videos on hand-soldering QFPs and other packages. The best approach seems to be a wide tip on your iron and some desoldering braid and a very light touch. At least that's what works for me. There are also videos for hand rework of BGAs, including reballing. There's an amazing one of a guy replacing a VIA southbridge chip using what appears to be a butane pencil torch.... --Chuck From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 05:22:42 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:22:42 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C200910.1000705@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> <4C1FF9F5.5020000@gmail.com> <4C200910.1000705@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 22 June 2010 01:51, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Things to have taken - KIM1, kit-built NASCOM1, Tangerine Microtan65, > >> Ohio Superboard II, Jupiter ACE, Amiga 1000, unassembled ZX81 kit, >> original >> 16K Spectrum etc etc. Oh well. >> > > > ... BBC Domesday system.. :) > There was a rep from a computer museum in Cambridge who brought one of > those down to show off. Always neat to see one of those still going. > > It'd have been nice to exercise one of my Domesdays. The fun bit is when a visitor who contributed to the system originally manages to find the stuff they added, that always brings a smile to my face :) It would also have been good to try and get more info on the Domesday machine I have that was originally used to create amongst other things the video content for the discs. It's labelled as coming from the BBC Enterprises: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/scripts/picshow.php?image=domesday-creator17.jpg&folder=/Museum/Acorn/domesday&back=/Museum/Acorn/domesday/index.php Any ideas anyone? -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ats at offog.org Tue Jun 22 05:50:22 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:50:22 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FE821.9010808@philpem.me.uk> (Philip Pemberton's message of "Mon, 21 Jun 2010 23:30:57 +0100") References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> <4C1FD8C3.1050805@mac.com> <4C1FE821.9010808@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Philip Pemberton writes: > Electronic products are SOLD AS NON-FUNCTIONAL. All equipment > purchased should be safety tested and examined by a qualified > person. This is essentially the wording that the university I work at uses for surplus equipment sales; have the buyer sign it and pay a nominal amount, and the university's legal team is happy. (The nomimal price is usually a penny, but the bidding got up to significantly higher amounts when the Solaris workstations that some of us had become quite attached to were sold off... everybody wanted "their" machine to take home!) With regard to the hard disk fixed with sticky tape later in the thread: a friend gave me a PC a few years ago, and neglected to mention that the motherboard was only held in using Blu-Tak... -- Adam Sampson From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 22 08:10:32 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits, now handsoldering QFP's In-Reply-To: <4C2053B0.1040506@bluewin.ch> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> <4C2053B0.1040506@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010, Jos Dreesen wrote: > On 06/22/2010 12:23 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: >> "A. Christoff Baumann" writes: >> >> >>> Not everybody has access to a teacher [...] >>> >> That's the important thing -- the best way to learn how to handle SMD >> soldering is to find someone who already knows how and watch them >> carefully for a while! >> > > Any recommendations for instructional videos on this subject ( i.e. > handsoldering QFP's, maybe even BGA's ) ? > Jos, take a look here: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/tutorial_info.php?tutorials_id=36 The SparkFun website has a multi-part surface mount soldering tutorial that is pretty detailed. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From feedle at feedle.net Tue Jun 22 08:43:08 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 06:43:08 -0700 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> Message-ID: <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> On Jun 21, 2010, at 2:44 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> What would Heathkit do? >> >> Close their retail stores and essentially be a reseller of educational kits before fading into absolute irrelevancy. > > You missed the point, or you are ignoring it. > > The question posed is actually serious. Heathkit disappeared largely because electronics (and ham radio as well) as a hobby has drifted out of the mainstream and into a pretty selective niche. Electronics parts stores in general are largely an anachronism... even RadioShack has been desperately trying to shake off the "back wall" and become a cell phone boutique store. I think the reasons for this are quite complex. First off, there's the (IMHO) utter failure of the educational establishment to instill in youth a desire to tinker and experiment. This isn't a new thing: even when I was a teenager this was strongly discouraged, however the stakes seem to be a lot higher with everybody "jumpy" about "security" and the like. It is also worth noting that at my high school I was the last class to have an "electronics shop" class available at the high-school level. Secondly, as a society we've become very jaded about tech. Every six months there's some new "revolution". Think about just the past five years in the cellular business, for example, to see this in action. Android. iPhone. Blackberry going from an executive toy to a consumer platform. 3G widely deployed, and now 4G being implemented in most major markets. Integration of websites like Facebook and Twitter into the handset experience (see: Android). Cameras and GPS in every phone. Cellular data services being implemented in consumer electronics (Kindle/nook, iPad and netbooks). Each one of these in and of itself is quite a game-changer, and all of these converging has turned the cell phone from "just a phone" into a nexus of communication and interaction. A crystal set radio seems... out of place in a world where broadcasting consists of a finely tuned stream of podcasts and music tailored to your exact listening preferences. And how long until MW AM transmissions cease and a crystal set no longer even "works?" It is this latter issue that really rears its ugly head. Many of the "first project" kits involving electronics are increasingly irrelevant. Perhaps not to the skill of teaching electronics, but as a "useful tool once built." Some of the best first projects in electronics were fun because they created toys that could immediately be enjoyed. When I was 9, the two high-power AM stations in the Los Angeles area still played Top-40 music (that would be KFI and the border blaster XETRA, then called "The Mighty 690") and would drive a crystal set with 15 feet of wire. The big thrill was listening to the stations I enjoyed already on something I built out of a couple of electronics parts purchased with my allowance. What does a kid building a crystal set have to look forward to listening to nowadays? Rush Limbaugh? Ranchero music? If they're lucky and have an interest in sports, maybe a baseball game (once I learned some basic antenna theory, I could pick up both Angels and Dodgers broadcasts on my crystal set). But I tried getting a nephew this age interested in electronics this way, and it was a challenge. They just didn't see the mystery of pulling a signal out of the air with a few parts and no battery. A crystal set just isn't magic to a tweener who already has a cell phone with Pandora, YouTube videos, and MySpace at their fingertips. Many of my early forays into electronics involved building something I didn't have and wanted, and kids today pretty much have everything. As does society. I don't know what the solution is. But Heathkit's demise may in some small way have to do with the fact that electronics is so cheap and ubiquitous in our society that it no longer has any magic. It's sad, but in the march forever forward, where electronics are becoming increasingly complex and the skills required to build anything of relevance increases (while the discrete components disappear into assembled IC subsystems) it may be inevitable that the barrier for entry becomes pretty high. If you figure out a solution, there's an entire hobby (amateur radio) that is dying that would love to hear your solutions. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 22 08:59:26 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:59:26 -0400 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net><4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com><5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net><39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> Message-ID: There is no solution, nothing has any real value anymore. In the "old" days you could design and build something on your own that when finished was worth more then the time and material taken to build it, those days are gone. I used to toy around making home stereo speakers, these days buying the drivers, quality crossovers, and building the cabinet will set me back more then just buying a good brand of speakers. Same with computers, building your own will probably end up costing more then the same quality DELL on sale. So there is no incentive to do it on your own. There are many people coding software available for free, so most people do not even try coding on their own anymore unless it is for some old unsupported system. Most people don't bother hacking hardware anymore either, any function they could want is available on a single chip, there is no reason for the masses to even bother. ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. Christoff Baumann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 9:43 AM Subject: Re: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) On Jun 21, 2010, at 2:44 PM, William Donzelli wrote: If you figure out a solution, there's an entire hobby (amateur radio) that is dying that would love to hear your solutions.= From bdwheele at indiana.edu Tue Jun 22 09:25:11 2010 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:25:11 -0400 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> Message-ID: <1277216711.21860.2.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Tue, 2010-06-22 at 09:59 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > Same with computers, > building your own will probably end up costing more then the same > quality > DELL on sale. Well, maybe in some instances, but NewEgg is pretty good...and it is certainly easier to build machines from parts now than it used to be. That said, it sometimes is worth it just to pay a little extra to not have to futz with getting things 'right' From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 22 09:36:22 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:36:22 -0400 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net><4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com><5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net><39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net><2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> <1277216711.21860.2.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <2A8C53B0D832425AAB3E696B80366D79@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Wheeler" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 10:25 AM Subject: Re: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) > On Tue, 2010-06-22 at 09:59 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Same with computers, >> building your own will probably end up costing more then the same >> quality >> DELL on sale. > > Well, maybe in some instances, but NewEgg is pretty good...and it is > certainly easier to build machines from parts now than it used to be. > That said, it sometimes is worth it just to pay a little extra to not > have to futz with getting things 'right' > I use newegg all the time for my gear. Back in the early 90's I could get parts shipped in form California (which got them direct from Taiwan) to build a machine, run it for 6 months, get bored and upgrade and sell the old machine for a little less then what I paid for it. These days it would be hard even with newegg to piece together a machine cheaper then a mass produced dell (unless you want something very specific). There is no reason for the masses to even bother trying to roll their own. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 10:05:50 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:05:50 -0500 Subject: [Altair Computer Club] Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 5.0 (USA!) In-Reply-To: <4C1BE438.7020902@snarc.net> References: <41165A648E3649D19B5ED4036F878C40@obie> <8E5CEB52-F41E-438B-9D1B-D93DC4C4495F@acpsuperstore.com> <4C1BE438.7020902@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C20D14E.9060904@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Dave Freeman >> wrote: >>> What is the agenda? >>> Speakers? >>> Is this on a website? > > Presumably, in the near future, VCF Midwest will appear on > http://www.vintage.org/events.php ... why the UK crew didn't also use > the traditional VCF site is beyond me. It's always boggled my brain, too. I know there are a couple of listmembers who are far more actively involved with the museum than I can be, so hopefully one of them can set the record straight! I do remember there was quite a narrow window of time in which to get the UK event off the ground in order to run it this year, so quite possibly that had something to do with it. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 22 10:14:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:14:23 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C20D34F.2040203@neurotica.com> On 6/21/10 5:40 PM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: >> I have no problem with that at all. If they DON'T WANT to, that's >> fine. What I have a problem with is the knee-jerk reaction of "SMT == >> HARD", which is complete and utter bullshit. > > Not everybody has access to a teacher as patient and as learned as you. That's just the thing, though...everyone does. Free (and very good!) instructional videos abound, along with scads of advice on the subject. Mentors are everywhere. And I myself will help anyone who asks. > It's great you found it easy, and have the skills to teach others. Don't call "bullshit" just because you've found it isn't hard. Others have found it hard, and you can't discount their experiences. I'm calling bullshit because all I see, eveyrwhere, is a knee-jerk reaction of people screaming about SMT and about how impossible it is and they have bad eyes and blah blah blah blah blah, and most of the time when I ask them if they've actually attempted it, the answer is no. I've had great success with SMT, so when I see people having trouble with it, I try to help. When I see someone complaining about it, my motivation is to ask them what they're seeing and offer advice. However, probably 90% of the time I ask, the person hasn't even attempted it. > You can, however, figure out how to market the fact you've found it easy, and I'd bet the electronics hobbyists and amateur radio operators of the world would thank you financially for your help. I do that all the time, actually. :) But thanks for the suggestion. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 22 10:19:34 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: from Teo Zenios at "Jun 22, 10 09:59:26 am" Message-ID: <201006221519.o5MFJYfM020162@floodgap.com> > There is no solution, nothing has any real value anymore. > > In the "old" days you could design and build something on your own that when > finished was worth more then the time and material taken to build it, those > days are gone. I used to toy around making home stereo speakers, these days > buying the drivers, quality crossovers, and building the cabinet will set me > back more then just buying a good brand of speakers. Same with computers, > building your own will probably end up costing more then the same quality > DELL on sale. So there is no incentive to do it on your own. There are many > people coding software available for free, so most people do not even try > coding on their own anymore unless it is for some old unsupported system. > Most people don't bother hacking hardware anymore either, any function they > could want is available on a single chip, there is no reason for the masses > to even bother. This. However, I don't bother coding for newer stuff either because there's no permanence to it. Certainly with Mac OS X, the landscape changes regularly and yesterday's star API is tomorrow's deprecated dogfood (see Carbon). If I write classic Mac software, it runs on any classic Mac. If I write Commodore 64 software, it runs on any Commodore 64 and a good deal of emulators. So screw Snow Leopard. Computers and software are commodities. The old days of special systems and maintaining them are gone. Today, they are interchangeable and, with few exceptions, everything looks like everything else. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. -- Shakespeare --------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 22 10:22:13 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C20D34F.2040203@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 22, 10 11:14:23 am" Message-ID: <201006221522.o5MFMDvY019836@floodgap.com> > I'm calling bullshit because all I see, eveyrwhere, is a knee-jerk > reaction of people screaming about SMT and about how impossible it is > and they have bad eyes and blah blah blah blah blah, and most of the > time when I ask them if they've actually attempted it, the answer is no. With all due respect, when I'm attempting a repair it's usually on something that's valuable to me. I'd rather not bet my poor skills on something I'd like to keep, and I'm not soldering incessantly to build up those skills. I'm not particularly dexterous in any case, which is why I'm a boring old medicine physician instead of a surgeon. :-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- He who Laughs, Lasts. ------------------------------------------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 22 10:30:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:30:31 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <201006221522.o5MFMDvY019836@floodgap.com> References: <201006221522.o5MFMDvY019836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4C20D717.7070403@neurotica.com> On 6/22/10 11:22 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'm calling bullshit because all I see, eveyrwhere, is a knee-jerk >> reaction of people screaming about SMT and about how impossible it is >> and they have bad eyes and blah blah blah blah blah, and most of the >> time when I ask them if they've actually attempted it, the answer is no. > > With all due respect, when I'm attempting a repair it's usually on > something that's valuable to me. I'd rather not bet my poor skills on > something I'd like to keep, and I'm not soldering incessantly to build > up those skills. I'm not particularly dexterous in any case, which is > why I'm a boring old medicine physician instead of a surgeon. :-) An excellent point, but do you think it's reasonable to make that valuable something your learning vehicle? One's very first attempt at using a brand-new woodworking tool, for example, shouldn't be repairing grandma's prized living room chair. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 22 10:37:04 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 08:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C20D717.7070403@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 22, 10 11:30:31 am" Message-ID: <201006221537.o5MFb4Rp016402@floodgap.com> > > With all due respect, when I'm attempting a repair it's usually on > > something that's valuable to me. I'd rather not bet my poor skills on > > something I'd like to keep, and I'm not soldering incessantly to build > > up those skills. I'm not particularly dexterous in any case, which is > > why I'm a boring old medicine physician instead of a surgeon. :-) > > An excellent point, but do you think it's reasonable to make that > valuable something your learning vehicle? One's very first attempt at > using a brand-new woodworking tool, for example, shouldn't be repairing > grandma's prized living room chair. That's my point. For me, soldering is a need-based skill: I have a specific need to fix something, and I'm generally not doing it often because most of the time something's not broken. Like playing the piano, it needs skill and a lot of practice, and for me the time payoff isn't there for something I don't need to do very much given that my day job has nothing to do with it and my systems are typically in good repair. I also think a certain amount of it is innate skill and temperament. An innate ability can be honed and sharpened, but some people just lack the basic manual faculty. I know I don't have it, although I can fake a reasonable facsimile on larger, simpler repair jobs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Justice is incidental to law and order. -- J. Edgar Hoover ----------------- From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jun 22 10:45:21 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:45:21 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C20D34F.2040203@neurotica.com> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> <4C20D34F.2040203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C20DA91.2000303@verizon.net> On 6/22/2010 11:14 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/21/10 5:40 PM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: >>> I have no problem with that at all. If they DON'T WANT to, that's >>> fine. What I have a problem with is the knee-jerk reaction of "SMT == >>> HARD", which is complete and utter bullshit. >> >> Not everybody has access to a teacher as patient and as learned as you. > > That's just the thing, though...everyone does. Free (and very good!) > instructional videos abound, along with scads of advice on the subject. > Mentors are everywhere. And I myself will help anyone who asks. It's really not the same as having someone show you. There's a big difference between being taught in-person in an interactive manner and having some shaky low-res video one-way instruction on youtube. Yes, there's scads of advice. That's part of the problem. Everyone says something different, there's no consensus and this leads to confusion and frustration for average joe. >> It's great you found it easy, and have the skills to teach others. Don't call "bullshit" just because you've found it isn't hard. Others have found it hard, and you can't discount their experiences. > > I'm calling bullshit because all I see, eveyrwhere, is a knee-jerk > reaction of people screaming about SMT and about how impossible it is Since this BS was dumped in my lap originally, let me respond. First, I think your assumption that my (our?) reasons for not liking/not being good at SMT stuff is simply a knee-jerk reaction is unfair. Since you are Mr. helpful, instead of trying to inflame the situation, why not simply ask what the issues are? Try posting some valuable links. Or some encouraging remarks. No, we get, "BULLSHIT", "you don't need expensive tools", "your eyesight doesn't matter." and attacked. On one hand we hear "wrong tools", and in the next we hear that almost any soldering iron will work. As A. Christoff Baumann pointed out, it's great that you've found it easy. Fantastic. I'm happy for you. For the rest of us mortals, these things are hard --- and yes, I've tried and my experience wasn't great. It was an 8-pin SOIC memory chip. I was soldering onto a surfboard. It worked, actually the first time, but I found it pretty tricky and the pitch was HUGE by any standard. When I look at these other chips with tens of pins -> hundreds of pins, I'm intimidated. They are ridiculously close together, and my soldering iron tip looks pretty big next to it. I almost NEVER have a need to do SMT. So not only do I not have a need to practice --- the return on investment is low. Why spend so much time practicing when there are clearly other better/faster/easier methods of obtaining the same (or better) result? Especially when I need a result every couple years? Many people who have already obtained a skill love to claim that what they do is "easy." It makes them look like gods in the eyes of the uninitiated. I'm a pool player. 9-ball is my game. I can break and run a rack of 9-ball on a pretty regular basis. Is it hard? For me? Not really. I do it all the time. How many other people in this forum can do this? I think most people would consider it a "hard task." My 17 years as a player helps this "hard task" become and look "easy." Ok, sure, this is computer forum, but do you see the analogy? Dave: how about a little perspective here? > I've had great success with SMT, so when I see people having trouble > with it, I try to help. When I see someone complaining about it, my > motivation is to ask them what they're seeing and offer advice. Really? Was that your motivation this time? How about giving us a break? Keith From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 22 11:12:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 09:12:08 -0700 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> References: , , <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C207E68.10304.33CFAC@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2010 at 6:43, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > Heathkit disappeared largely because electronics (and ham radio as > well) as a hobby has drifted out of the mainstream and into a pretty > selective niche. Electronics parts stores in general are largely an > anachronism... even RadioShack has been desperately trying to shake > off the "back wall" and become a cell phone boutique store. One reason that is rarely mentioned is the decline of the GI Bill. During the 60s and 70s, Heathkit's Educational division was a popular place to spend GI Bill funds because you came away with your own TV that you'd built from a kit. But cheap imported goods was really the final straw. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 22 11:19:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:19:29 -0400 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C20E291.40009@neurotica.com> On 6/22/10 9:43 AM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > Heathkit disappeared largely because electronics (and ham radio as well) > as a hobby has drifted out of the mainstream and into a pretty selective niche. > Electronics parts stores in general are largely an anachronism... even > RadioShack has been desperately trying to shake off the "back wall" and become > a cell phone boutique store. This has been discussed here several times recently. You're fifteen years too late with this complaint; Radio Shack's parts offerings did hit rock bottom years ago, but they have gone back up considerably in most places over the past five years. They even started selling microcontroller stuff (Parallax) a few years ago. Part of the problem is that the parts areas LOOK smaller now due to having evolved from horribly inefficient pegboards to those large metal drawers for holding their parts stocks. Less square footage, more components...just less visible. Electronic components don't need to be "shown off" in well-lit glass display cases, while cell phones do. > I think the reasons for this are quite complex. First off, there's the (IMHO) > utter failure of the educational establishment to instill in youth a desire to > tinker and experiment. This isn't a new thing: even when I was a > teenager this was strongly discouraged, however the stakes seem to be a > lot higher with everybody "jumpy" about "security" and the like. Yes, it's sheer insanity. Just watch the average soccer mom's eyes open wide when they hear the evil, scary word "DEVICE". "Oh my god, a DEVICE!!!" ...it seems to be implied that it means something bad. And heaven help you if you use that word within five miles of an airport. Any time one of these morons sees a piece of wire, they panic. > I don't know what the solution is. But Heathkit's demise may in some small way have to do with the fact that electronics is so cheap and ubiquitous in our society that it no longer has any magic. It's sad, but in the march forever forward, where electronics are becoming increasingly complex and the skills required to build anything of relevance increases (while the discrete components disappear into assembled IC subsystems) it may be inevitable that the barrier for entry becomes pretty high. > > If you figure out a solution, there's an entire hobby (amateur radio) that is dying that would love to hear your solutions. No, the situation is nowhere near as dire as this, actually it's quite bright. If this were ten years ago, I'd agree with you, pour you a beer, and shed a tear, but it has all come back...and with a vengeance! Read on. Electronic components vendors: In 1975, we (the USA) had Radio Shack and Lafayette, and maybe a few little regional chains. Now they number in the thousands, and their business is booming. Electronic kits: There are more electronic kit vendors than ever before. Yes, the loss of Heathkit sucks, I grew up with that company and their products. But look at what we've got now! There are so many I can't even begin to name them...Hundreds of them, and they're growing like weeds! One of my favorites, Spark Fun Electronics (not strictly a kit company, but close) has experienced near-exponential growth recently and had to move into a much larger building. Places to do stuff: "Hacker spaces" and "maker spaces" are popping up all over the country, even here in the technological black hole that is Florida there are several. I visited a VERY impressive one in Atlanta a few months ago while on a road trip. Ten thousand square feet of pure geeky joy. People etching PCBs, building robots, fixing things, writing code, experimenting on solderless breadboards, restoring a Tektronix 500-series oscilloscope...I showed up there at 2AM (I was on a road trip) and there were four people there working on projects! "Maker" gatherings: These things get HUGE attendance, with people building and showing off robots, homebrew computers, gadgets of every kind, soldering classes (ahem!), etc etc etc. Sure, nobody is messing with crystal sets like you and I did. They were fun in our childhood days, but they aren't today, as you pointed out. But what we've gained far, far outstrips what we've lost, IMO. Today, there are teenagers building powered model airplanes with GPS receivers, microcontrollers, and servos that take a programmed set of coordinates, take off, and fly there. This is good stuff, and most of it is being done by young(er) people. ...unless of course this is just a crotchety-old-man-fest, at which point I'll shut up and go about my business, and tell you to "get off my lawn!" ;) (your mailer is sending out paragraphs as one very long line, by the way) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 22 11:20:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:20:16 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C20DA91.2000303@verizon.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> <4C20D34F.2040203@neurotica.com> <4C20DA91.2000303@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C20E2C0.8050503@neurotica.com> On 6/22/10 11:45 AM, Keith M wrote: > It's really not the same as having someone show you. There's a big > difference between being taught in-person in an interactive manner and > having some shaky low-res video one-way instruction on youtube. How far are you from southwest Florida? > Yes, there's scads of advice. That's part of the problem. Everyone > says something different, there's no consensus and this leads to > confusion and frustration for average joe. Actually there's a pretty common consensus on procedures and tools. As with anything else, there are outliers, and they can be difficult to identify when one is getting started. That's frustrating, I'll grant. I'm running into exactly that in something unrelated to this right now. > Since this BS was dumped in my lap originally, let me respond. First, I > think your assumption that my (our?) reasons for not liking/not being > good at SMT stuff is simply a knee-jerk reaction is unfair. Since you > are Mr. helpful, instead of trying to inflame the situation, why not > simply ask what the issues are? Try posting some valuable links. Or > some encouraging remarks. I've given (admittedly minor) assistance two people in private email as a direct result of this thread. Others have posted URLs. If I go post some, I'll have obtained them via Google, which anyone can do. They're easy to find. Direct assistance, though, I give whenever possible. > No, we get, "BULLSHIT", "you don't need expensive tools", "your eyesight > doesn't matter." and attacked. On one hand we hear "wrong tools", and > in the next we hear that almost any soldering iron will work. I'm not attacking anyone, and I'm sorry if I came across that way. I am frustrated by all this broken-record "SMT IS HARD!" stuff that people spout for the wrong reasons. I think that frustration is what's talking here, and for that, I apologize. > As A. Christoff Baumann pointed out, it's great that you've found it > easy. Fantastic. I'm happy for you. For the rest of us mortals, these > things are hard --- and yes, I've tried and my experience wasn't great. > It was an 8-pin SOIC memory chip. I was soldering onto a surfboard. It > worked, actually the first time, but I found it pretty tricky and the > pitch was HUGE by any standard. When I look at these other chips with > tens of pins -> hundreds of pins, I'm intimidated. They are > ridiculously close together, and my soldering iron tip looks pretty big > next to it. Your THROUGH-HOLE soldering iron tip, yes. That was the problem in this case, or least part of it. Here's an analogy. I want to build a wooden chair, and I think I can do it because I have a saw and a knowledge of cutting stuff. My saw happens to be a hacksaw, though, and my knowledge of cutting stuff comes from having made a lot of birthday cakes, but a saw is a saw, and cutting is cutting, right? So I attempt it with the hacksaw, give up in frustration, and go around complaining forever more that "woodworking is hard". Why not go find a proper saw and learn how to cut wood, or simply back away from the project and say "I can't do that, I don't have (and won't get) the proper tools"? "It's hard" is not the same as "I'm not equipped to do it". Going around saying the former dissuades others from even trying. > I almost NEVER have a need to do SMT. So not only do I not have a need > to practice --- the return on investment is low. Why spend so much time > practicing when there are clearly other better/faster/easier methods of > obtaining the same (or better) result? Especially when I need a result > every couple years? Doesn't the same apply to through-hole soldering? > Many people who have already obtained a skill love to claim that what > they do is "easy." It makes them look like gods in the eyes of the > uninitiated. Ahh, I guess that's why I've taught about a dozen people how to solder. Nice, thanks. >> I've had great success with SMT, so when I see people having trouble >> with it, I try to help. When I see someone complaining about it, my >> motivation is to ask them what they're seeing and offer advice. > > Really? Was that your motivation this time? Yes, actually. I'll even help YOU with it if you want, even after you choose to label my offer of assistance as "trying to look like a god". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jun 22 02:52:40 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 00:52:40 -0700 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <000901cb11d9$568ba980$03a2fc80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> from "Andy Holt" at Jun21, 10 10:44:50 am <000901cb11d9$568ba980$03a2fc80$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C206BC8.4010205@jwsss.com> PDP 8/L about 2 years ago at TRW. everyone was looking at it and marveling at how old it was, and I was counting the 12 front panel switches, and getting out my $1. TRW (Northrup / Grumman, LA)swap meet has a combination of computer users (like me with more than one PC in the house, and potentially a big pile running), HAMs with their junk (sometimes bring in old computer stuff), people dumping tailings from local DMRO (or whatever) sales, or just scrappers with odd bits of stuff. The computer scrap stores around are pretty much gone now, you have to know the scrappers and deal with them. And I"m not talking about "recyclers" though they might yield some things. Jim On 6/22/2010 12:05 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Would you say that a radio rally was a potential good source for computer > equipment for someone who is not interested in radio, or were you just > lucky? I have had a look to see what is on in my area and there is a radio > rally coming up near me quite soon and I am wondering if it would be worth > going along. > > Regards > > Rob From feedle at feedle.net Tue Jun 22 12:00:16 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:00:16 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C20E2C0.8050503@neurotica.com> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> <4C20D34F.2040203@neurotica.com> <4C20DA91.2000303@verizon.net> <4C20E2C0.8050503@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2D49455C-59FF-49FC-8D62-C0E09AA51A4F@feedle.net> On Jun 22, 2010, at 9:20 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Why not go find a proper saw and learn how to cut wood, or simply back > away from the project and say "I can't do that, I don't have (and won't > get) the proper tools"? "It's hard" is not the same as "I'm not > equipped to do it". Going around saying the former dissuades others > from even trying. Or, if you are just starting woodworking, you might by a kit with some of the harder to do properly pieces pre-assembled and/or precut. Perhaps you might buy this as some 'starter kit' from the local woodworking store, specifically designed to teach some basic skills to a novice while providing the satisfaction of building something useful and beautiful without scaring people off with something that looks hard but might actually be pretty easy if properly demonstrated. SMT LOOKS hard. Regardless of one's personal experience with soldering, the small parts and static warnings all say to the novice "steer clear of this, newbie!" It's not a "knee-jerk" reaction when it is based upon somebody's evaluation of their personal skill level and ability to succeed. Nobody likes to fail, that's just human nature. SMT soldering doesn't look easy, so people steer clear of it. Some of us who've tried it have found our failure rate to be higher than through-hole. Is it within acceptable levels? Probably: every time I've done SMT work, I've managed to fix the flaws pretty quickly (and even spot them before the dreaded smoke test) and I've probably gotten a little better from the experience. I certainly have enough confidence in my SMT skills to do moderate rework on SMT projects, and I've even built a few microcontroller projects that had one or two SMT components. Was it an enjoyable experience? Let's just say I find through-hole projects more rewarding at this stage. I don't feel it is something I (as a three-project-a-year tinkerer) ever will be 100% comfortable with. And that's the point. Everybody has their own skill level, and the novice tends to be very bad at judging theirs, often pessimistically. I, as somebody who assembles and sells kits, would much rather err on the side of caution and hand-hold the novice through the rough spots by pre-assembling the SMT stuff. I've seen one or two P112 boards assembled by novices: they aren't pretty. There are lots of cold joints, lots of excess solder (a sin I'm even guilty of now and then), and just plain look ugly. However, they work.. which is a testament to the design of the P112. I really cringe at the thought of somebody putting on a QFP Z80182 processor using a RadioShack 15 watt pencil with the tip filed down (as was actually the advice in an ARRL publication for inexpensive SMT soldering tools) when they have trouble soldering on a through-hole discrete without lifting a trace or cold-soldering it. >> I almost NEVER have a need to do SMT. So not only do I not have a need >> to practice --- the return on investment is low. Why spend so much time >> practicing when there are clearly other better/faster/easier methods of >> obtaining the same (or better) result? Especially when I need a result >> every couple years? > > Doesn't the same apply to through-hole soldering? Yes, but for many of us, we have 30+ years of through-hole experience and hundreds (if not thousands) of completed projects under our belt. The vast majority of kits I build (including the ones I've sold over the years) are entirely through-hole, in some cases by design. I'm actually working on ramping up production of a kit I used to sell that has a component that is now only available in QFP, the DIP package is long obsolete.. and I'm figuring on either having it robot-soldered on to a DIP carrier for the end-user. (Note that this is also saving me a ton of time having to redesign the board to take a QFP). Maybe I am doing them a disservice. However, once people reach a certain stage with the hobby, they don't need kits anymore, they can just read the schematic, fab their own board, and type the parts list into Digikey. I feel that stage, to use your woodworking analogy earlier, is when they've assembled a good collection of tools and the skills to use them properly. My initial resistance aside, I understand people want the entire experience. Not everybody does: some people like buying raw wood at the hardware store and crafting their project every step of the way. Some people want precut pieces that can be perhaps modified for different results. Some people want completely assembled furniture that is just "unfinished" so they can have the joy of being creative without having to learn woodworking skills. And, some people just like going to a quality handmade furniture store and buying the work of a craftsman, that would far exceed any ability they would ever have in woodworking even if they labored the rest of their lifetime. Point is, just calling 'bullshit' because some people find SMT hard is itself a knee-jerk reaction based on your experiences. Not everybody shares your experiences, nor wants to. And I think that's a big point you are missing in this entire debate. Can we please get back to arguing about how to keep systems "authentic" when buying replacement parts? That argument was much more fruitful and germane. From feedle at feedle.net Tue Jun 22 12:21:06 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:21:06 -0700 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: <4C20E291.40009@neurotica.com> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> <4C20E291.40009@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <66F709DE-6010-4D3F-B762-275BA6420E33@feedle.net> On Jun 22, 2010, at 9:19 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/22/10 9:43 AM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: > This has been discussed here several times recently. You're fifteen > years too late with this complaint; Radio Shack's parts offerings did > hit rock bottom years ago, but they have gone back up considerably in > most places over the past five years. They even started selling > microcontroller stuff (Parallax) a few years ago. Agreed it is better than it has been (heck, I've bought the BASIC Stamps I've needed for the last three projects, plus an RFID reader, from my local RadioShack). However, it will never be as good as it was when they had the ".com stores" in a few select markets. Those places rocked. It is worth noting that RadioShack tells their investors all the time they are trying to shake the "parts wall". It is still a pretty significant source of revenue even compared to cell phone spiffs, so they keep it. For how long still remains to be seen, and I'm not hopeful for the future. > > Yes, it's sheer insanity. Just watch the average soccer mom's eyes > open wide when they hear the evil, scary word "DEVICE". "Oh my god, a > DEVICE!!!" ...it seems to be implied that it means something bad. And > heaven help you if you use that word within five miles of an airport. > Any time one of these morons sees a piece of wire, they panic. I've had adventures getting Steampunk costumes through airport security. Don't get me started. > Electronic components vendors: In 1975, we (the USA) had Radio Shack > and Lafayette, and maybe a few little regional chains. Now they number > in the thousands, and their business is booming. I don't really see that. In fact, I remember when there was six electronics parts stores (excluding RadioShack) within a short bicycle ride of my house in the early 1980's in Southern California. All but one is gone. Here in my new home in Portland, I understand they've lost quite a few over the years as well: what's left is largely surplus and recycler outlets with few new parts (not that this is a bad thing: many an inspired hack has come from Surplus Gizmos in Hillsboro). > > Electronic kits: There are more electronic kit vendors... > > Places to do stuff: "Hacker spaces" and "maker spaces" are popping up... > > "Maker" gatherings: These things get HUGE attendance, with people > building and showing off robots, homebrew computers, gadgets of every > kind, soldering classes (ahem!), etc etc etc. I know about "hacker spaces": I've been involved in a few of them before they were cool. And I'm a participant in our local dorkbot group (although I've been neglecting my responsibilities). And SparkFun and Ramsey have gotten more of my paychecks than I really should discuss in public, it's embarrassing. There is a very exciting community in the DIY spaces. However, I always have the feeling we're preaching to the choir. Most of the groups are small, and while quite active, I don't always see a lot of new blood around them. Yes, there are a lot of sexy young people building things that are interesting. However, I think as a society these people are marginalized and not "mainstream" by any definition. There was a time (way before I was born) that ham radio and electronics were considered interesting hobbies by the general public, even if they didn't understand it. Nowadays, it's a nerd hobby. And while nerd hobbies aren't quite as negative as they once were, many in the general public don't understand these "magnificent men and their [thinking] machines." > > (your mailer is sending out paragraphs as one very long line, by the way) Actually, it doesn't. Your mailer doesn't implement RFC 3676 et. al. properly regarding the use of "soft" CRLF entries in the text/plain MIME format. The raw message is, in fact, within spec (I'm assuming the list server doesn't munge it). Welcome to the Internet, where standards move and not every display is a fixed-width 80-column screen. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 22 12:32:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:32:11 -0400 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: <66F709DE-6010-4D3F-B762-275BA6420E33@feedle.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> <4C20E291.40009@neurotica.com> <66F709DE-6010-4D3F-B762-275BA6420E33@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C20F39B.4090702@neurotica.com> On 6/22/10 1:21 PM, A. Christoff Baumann wrote: >> (your mailer is sending out paragraphs as one very long line, by the way) > > Actually, it doesn't. Your mailer doesn't implement RFC 3676 et. al. properly regarding the use of "soft" CRLF entries in the text/plain MIME format. The raw message is, in fact, within spec (I'm assuming the list server doesn't munge it). Welcome to the Internet, where standards move and not every display is a fixed-width 80-column screen. I will reply to the rest of your message later, I have to run out now, but this part...Argh! I will have to look into this when I get back. I was unaware of RFC3676, thank you for the pointer! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From marvin at west.net Tue Jun 22 12:58:23 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:58:23 -0700 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) Message-ID: <4C20F9BF.4090605@west.net> > From: "A. Christoff Baumann" > > If you figure out a solution, there's an entire hobby (amateur radio) > that is dying that would love to hear your solutions. The solution is oriented towards hands on training, doing, and actual elmering (mentoring) as opposed to just telling someone how to do something, i.e. get involved with helping/teaching instead of just telling! I am constantly amazed that for the most part, the only people buying the older Heathkit/Eico/etc. electronics are "old" people who are buying more for nostagia as opposed to learning. And this also applies to classic computers. At the last swapmeet, I had an HP85A for sale with not one person showing any interest. Most of us here have a lot on our plates, and that makes it easy to rationalize we don't have time. BS. We find time to do what we want. A bigger problem IMNSHO is not having any idea of where this training we could offer leads. I'm not sure any of us are into wasting time per se. And doing something without a clue where it will lead (especially with a full plate of stuff to do) makes it easy to not spend the effort to teach or get involved with others. BTW, someone told me that Heathkit has started selling kits again; has anyone heard this? Marvin From feedle at feedle.net Tue Jun 22 13:24:33 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:24:33 -0700 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: <4C20F9BF.4090605@west.net> References: <4C20F9BF.4090605@west.net> Message-ID: <05F6B0D6-99C6-4FB6-B93A-4F11B95B176C@feedle.net> On Jun 22, 2010, at 10:58 AM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > A bigger problem IMNSHO is not having any idea of where this training we could offer leads. I'm not sure any of us are into wasting time per se. And doing something without a clue where it will lead (especially with a full plate of stuff to do) makes it easy to not spend the effort to teach or get involved with others. I agree that's a problem. I've faced this in my own desire to get more people interested in amateur radio. There's a lot of cool stuff going on that is easy to hop into and make some real progress, but to what end? It's very hard to get people interested in, say as an example, APRS when cell phones do everything APRS does (short messaging, geopositioning, etc.) faster, better, and cheaper in a device people already carry. Yes, APRS will likely survive a catastrophic disaster, but it's really hard to sell people on that by itself. Most people I think understand amateur radio often picks up a lot of the slack in disaster communications, but there isn't enough to get people into the front door of the hobby to keep them interested for very long unless they're a pretty hard-core geek. And even the latter get turned off, but that's an entirely different story and not really relevant to this conversation. In the classic computer and electronics context, what do we have to offer people other than an opportunity to be (in essence) a docent at a museum? Even a lot of the skills retrocomputing has to teach are increasingly irrelevant (and I know I'm going to get flak for this) in this day and age of modular and rapid prototyping programming languages. I've met "hardware people" who develop network switches that sell for tens of thousands of dollars who have never picked up a soldering iron. All they do all day long is build custom ASICs and draw vias in CAD packages. They get the assembled board with a FPGA a few hours later from the fab out back, and if there's a mistake or a design flaw it's easier and cheaper to just update the drawing and click "print" than blue-wire it. "Nobody writes in assembler anymore" is a pretty valid thing to say. Most device driver coding is done in C++ with inline assembly, often generated automatically from some long-forgotten back-end process nobody ever maintains except for one guy who's long since officially "retired" and does bug fixes on an hourly contract basis from home. Which is the $250,000 RV he purchased with his stock options money with a satellite Internet feed. (This is not a joke: I know of a Microsoft employee who's life is exactly this.) I guess retrocomputing has something to teach in that emulating long-forgotten hardware in FPGA (and other "fungible" architectures) is a fascinating project. I learned a lot about analog FM synthesis by following the efforts of those trying to implement the MOS SID chip in FPGA. But you have to have the passion for the original tech in the first place before this really becomes interesting. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 22 13:26:37 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Plain text pedantry was Re: Heathkit was Re: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C20F39B.4090702@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Jun 22, 10 01:32:11 pm" Message-ID: <201006221826.o5MIQbIN009692@floodgap.com> > > > (your mailer is sending out paragraphs as one very long line, by the way) > > > > Actually, it doesn't. Your mailer doesn't implement RFC 3676 et. al. properly regarding the use of "soft" CRLF entries in the text/plain MIME format. The raw message is, in fact, within spec (I'm assuming the list server doesn't munge it). Welcome to the Internet, where standards move and not every display is a fixed-width 80-column screen. > > I will reply to the rest of your message later, I have to run out now, > but this part...Argh! I will have to look into this when I get back. I > was unaware of RFC3676, thank you for the pointer! Actually, I dispute the analysis. While the long line is technically within spec, I point to section 4.2, which says, When generating Format=Flowed text, lines SHOULD be 78 characters or shorter, including any trailing white space and also including any space added as part of stuffing (see Section 4.4). I see no soft breaks in the line, unless the mailing list removed them (soft break being SP CR LF). I left the line as my mailer saw it. That said, the only mandate is that paragraph length be less than 998 characters, so the line is still technically compliant. It is, however, still a very long line no matter how wide your terminal is. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't have everything. Where would you put it? -- Steven Wright -------- From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Jun 22 13:43:14 2010 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:43:14 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <8e2f4af516dc576f938ed2ec64025cf0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <4C1FE295.5020504@softjar.se> <4C20587C.7070105@mindspring.com> <8e2f4af516dc576f938ed2ec64025cf0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4C210442.7050601@mindspring.com> On 6/22/2010 12:34 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >> Johnny is right, the 11/74 option was a multiboard set (just like the >> FPP option) that could be plugged into the new 11/74 backplane (which >> was an 11/70 backplane with all the CPU and FPP slots pushed down by >> four to make room for the CIS option in the first slots). >> > How was this achived? By reducing the Massbus card space by 4 boards > so 3 interface sections were available? Or by redesigning the processor > in such a way that there were less boards needed? > > Ed > > Removed one of the MASSBUS controllers. The CPU board set was essentially the same, slot for slot. There were several boards that needed rev/ECO to provide hooks for the CIS option, but all in all these were minor updates and were backward compatible. IIRC the main change was to add additional microcode to the base 11/70 microengine (from 256 to 512 words) by doubling the PROM bit density. This code did all the base instruction dispatch and operand fetch for the CIS unit. Don From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 22 13:51:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Plain text pedantry was Re: Heathkit was Re: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <201006221826.o5MIQbIN009692@floodgap.com> References: <201006221826.o5MIQbIN009692@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100622113545.J54253@shell.lmi.net> Was RFC 3676 pushed through by MICROS~1's equating of an email message with a WEIRD document? RFC 3676 is less than ten years old (Feb 2004?). Should this list conform to RFC 2646 (1999?), instead? On Tue, 22 Jun 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > When generating Format=Flowed text, lines SHOULD be 78 characters or > shorter, including any trailing white space and also including any > space added as part of stuffing (see Section 4.4). . . . but if it is more than 72, then the FORTRAN card sequential numbering doesn't have space. I remember several EAM machines that were configured (plug-board) to ignore anything past 72 ALSO, since people often don't trim the replies to the replies to the replies, it's nice to leave some room for when the chevrons get inserted. > I see no soft breaks in the line, unless the mailing list removed them > (soft break being SP CR LF). I left the line as my mailer saw it. "Soft line breaks" are fine for text that will be reformatted in an editor, etc. But they are a nuisance when they get quoted. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From feedle at feedle.net Tue Jun 22 14:05:35 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:05:35 -0700 Subject: Plain text pedantry was Re: Heathkit was Re: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <201006221826.o5MIQbIN009692@floodgap.com> References: <201006221826.o5MIQbIN009692@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <8E7A0F47-FEFD-4BFA-A834-9D8BDCF224DD@feedle.net> On Jun 22, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > That said, the only mandate is that paragraph length be less than 998 > characters, so the line is still technically compliant. It is, however, > still a very long line no matter how wide your terminal is. Allow me to be more specific. See the raw message at http://fedl.info/a/messageoutput.txt as delivered back to me by the mailing list. The message is encoded using MIME type text/plain, Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable, as discussed in RFC 2045 and the follow-ups to the same. Under that encoding method, soft line breaks are inserted as "=[CR]" before the 76th (?) character. Most text mailers like Pine treat that as a line break, not making the "=" visible to the end user. Mailers on bitmapped platforms (see: just about any modern computer) treat this as a signal to flow the text and not provide a hard line break, as suggested in RFC 3676. I suspect what is happening is whatever user agent he is using is removing the =20 and not replacing it with a native line break. In short, "that's not my problem", his MUA is disobeying his wishes. As to Fred's comment about Microsoft.. like it or not Microsoft has seats on the IETF. As the publisher of software programs that a majority of Internet users use to access the Internet, that seems appropriate. The RFC in question was actually written by somebody from Qualcomm, and it was designed to address small-format screens such as cell phones and PDAs while still allowing text to flow naturally using windowed operating systems on bitmapped displays. The RFC makes a lot of sense given the nature of Internet access today, and solves a good number of issues (oddly enough, precisely this one is mentioned in that RFC). For the record: this is Apple's Mail.app on Mac OS X 6 that's doing this behavior. And it's not the first mailer I've ever used that does it. It's the right way to do it, and provided everybody follows the RFC properly (ahem) everybody wins and nobody loses. It allows those who need a fixed format to have it, and for those who like text to flow naturally on whatever screen size they are using to have that: even if it's 22-column text on a Commodore VIC-20. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Jun 22 14:20:50 2010 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:20:50 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C210442.7050601@mindspring.com> References: <4C1FE295.5020504@softjar.se> <4C20587C.7070105@mindspring.com> <8e2f4af516dc576f938ed2ec64025cf0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4C210442.7050601@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4C210D12.6000806@mindspring.com> On 6/22/2010 11:43 AM, Don North wrote: > On 6/22/2010 12:34 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> >>> Johnny is right, the 11/74 option was a multiboard set (just like the >>> FPP option) that could be plugged into the new 11/74 backplane (which >>> was an 11/70 backplane with all the CPU and FPP slots pushed down by >>> four to make room for the CIS option in the first slots). >> How was this achived? By reducing the Massbus card space by 4 boards >> so 3 interface sections were available? Or by redesigning the processor >> in such a way that there were less boards needed? >> >> Ed >> > > Removed one of the MASSBUS controllers. > > The CPU board set was essentially the same, slot for slot. There were > several boards that needed rev/ECO to provide hooks for the CIS > option, but all in all these were minor updates and were backward > compatible. > > IIRC the main change was to add additional microcode to the base 11/70 > microengine (from 256 to 512 words) by doubling the PROM bit density. > This code did all the base instruction dispatch and operand fetch for > the CIS unit. > BTW you can read about it here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/Prelim_KB11-E_Diffs_Aug78.pdf Don From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 14:22:29 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 15:22:29 -0400 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: <66F709DE-6010-4D3F-B762-275BA6420E33@feedle.net> References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> <4C20E291.40009@neurotica.com> <66F709DE-6010-4D3F-B762-275BA6420E33@feedle.net> Message-ID: > I don't really see that. ?In fact, I remember when there was six electronics parts stores (excluding RadioShack) within a short bicycle ride of my house in the early 1980's in Southern California. ?All but one is gone. Yes, brick and mortar electronics parts stores are a vanishing breed. All the ones I knew as a kid are gone, and nothing is replacing them. The same is true for the surplus market - the old line is just about gone, and very few new guys are stepping up. >> ?Electronic kits: There are more electronic kit vendors... The 1950s and 60s were the golden era of the electronic kit, with FAR more vendors than today. Even some of the big guns tried the kit business (Hallicrafters and National, to name two), but they could never match the Heathkit standard, so they disappeared quickly. Most of the vendors, like today, were small, and now completely forgotten. If you look in the old trade rags and electronics hobby magazines, you will start to see just how wide the kit business was back then. The resurgence in kits in the last ten years is actually just a little bump in the big picture. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 14:29:43 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 15:29:43 -0400 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: <05F6B0D6-99C6-4FB6-B93A-4F11B95B176C@feedle.net> References: <4C20F9BF.4090605@west.net> <05F6B0D6-99C6-4FB6-B93A-4F11B95B176C@feedle.net> Message-ID: > ?Most people I think understand amateur radio often picks up a lot of the slack in disaster communications, Well, not that much. The ARRL has stretched the importance of ham radio in disaster situations pretty far. Yes, it is good PR, and yes, having the ham radio bands as a backup is good, but in reality the cops, military and firemen still use their own radios nearly all the time, even in the most dire situations. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 13:55:00 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:55:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 21, 10 04:56:46 pm Message-ID: > > Yeah, if I was buying a kit like this, I'd certainly want the surface > > mount stuff soldered. Requiring the skills and equipment to solder a > > high pin count QFP device is a barrier to entry. I'd likely > > specifically avoid ordering a kit if this wasn't already done. > > > > Especially where the goal is to introduce people to retrocomputing, in > > my eyes, there is no other answer. > > > > If there are some people that want to practice self-flagellation, then > > let them take their soldering irons and join opus dei. > > Oh good heavens. This sort of stuff really just sounds like nothing > more than knee-jerk automatic hatred of SMT by people who did what I That's how I read it too. > described in my last message, and it really does become irritating to > those of us who know better. Right now I'm sitting here (well, taking a > break from it at the moment, actually) soldering sixteen boards with > 0.5mm-pitch parts for another open-hardware project, and am having no > trouble whatsoever. I find it quite enjoyable and completely Exactly, it's not hard. For anything larger than 0.5mm it's pretty easy to do it with just a fine tipped soldering iron, thin (SWG30 or so) solder and a solder wick to clean off any bridges. I remember the first time I did SMD rwrok, changing the LH5811 I/O chip in an Sharp CE151 printer/plotter (for the PC1500 calculator). I was worried abouit doing it, but when I actually did it and found every joint was good first time with no shorts (yes I did check before applying power), I wondered what all the fuss was about. > trouble-free, and I'm by no means the smartest, best-coordinated, or > best-sighted person here. The equipment isn't particularly expensive > (despite popular underinformed opinion), and the skills take an > afternoon to develop. > > If you were to actually TRY it, with the right tools, and the right > mindset (as in "learning a new skill" rather than trying to treat it > like it's through-hole soldering without the holes), I bet you'd love it. This mentions another attitude I find puzzling. I indulge in my hobbies in order to learn new skills (this is, I believe not uncommon, and certainly not restricted to electronics, or computing, or engineering, or related hobbies). SMD rework is another new skill. Why not gie it a go.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 13:58:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:58:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FD8C3.1050805@mac.com> from "Roger Pugh" at Jun 21, 10 10:25:23 pm Message-ID: > > The BP fleamarket seemed to be all BBC Model Bs, Sinclair Spectrums=20 > > and ZX81s. Starting prices around the =A350 mark..... yeesh. As I=20 > > understand it, it was all extras from the TNMoC collection, not a=20 > > bring-and-buy. > > I was dissapointed with this. Apparently the organisers had run out of=20 A phrase involving 'piss ups~ and 'breweries' springs to mind... Mind you, my views on the organisational skills of the people at Bletchley Park/TNMoC are pretty well known... > time to organise it, i for one would have bought a boot (trunk) full of=20 > stuff So waht would have happend if (based on the adverts on the website), somebody had turned up wit ha carload of stuff to sell? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 13:33:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:33:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <45F4E9DB-8855-49FE-8534-F3F64ACAC2C7@feedle.net> from "A. Christoff Baumann" at Jun 21, 10 01:00:42 pm Message-ID: > > Because there's no pain, it's actually fun. And if I do it myself, I = > can=20 > > use the lead/tin solder which I still believe is more reliable. > > I'm not convinced either way on the "reliability" angle. And, I think = A couple of metalurgists have said to me that lead was originally used in solder for good reasons... I am not at all convinced that the lead-free alternatives are as good. > decreasing the amount of lead in my diet is a good thing, so I'm "okay" = > with the Pb-free solder nowadays. Strangely, I have never had the urge to eat soldered connections. > > >> Note that it wouldn't necessarily make the kit any cheaper. The cost = > of =3D > >=20 > > What has that got to do with it? > > In my experience of making and selling kits, a lot of people think "hey, = > if I do that myself, it will make it cheaper." Dave and I have gotten a = Whereas I know that a kit is likely to be more expensive. Producing the parts lists, assembly instructions, counting out and packing all the little components is likely to be a lot more expensive than having the board assembled. But I have never built a kit to save money. I build kits (a) as a relaxation), (b) because I understand how it works, (c) becuase I can then repair the device if need be, (d) I can make modifications if I want to, and so on. And many, if not, all of those advantages go away if the PCB comes pre-assembled. Put it this way, if I can't solder the part on the board in the first place, I am going to have _big_ problems desoldering and replacing it should the need arise. > However, given that the board's design is for surface mount parts for = > the CPU, the FDC, and a couple of discretes, it might require a board = > redesign, which Dave has indicated to me he's not interested in doing at = > this point (except for fixing a few of the quirks in the previous rev). So hang on, if most of the board is SMD and comes pre-done, just what do you get to build yourself? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 13:36:06 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:36:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> from "A. Christoff Baumann" at Jun 21, 10 01:05:57 pm Message-ID: > It is worth noting that Dave and I's experience is that the people who = > want the P112 kits typically don't want to diddle with SMD components. = If I bought something described as a 'kit' and found that some (not even 'most') of the components were pre-soldered, I would return the kit and expect a full refund. It's not as descrbed. A 'kit' means I get to build it. > Not everybody is comfortable with SMD parts (I'm not, and I've been = > building kits for 30 years), and the P112 was designed to be a painless = Yes, and we had the same arguments when PCBs came in (replcing chassis and tagstrip wiring). Things change (not always for the better, but I digress). I really don't see what all the fuss is about doing SMD assembly by hand. I never had any problems with it at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 14:02:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:02:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 21, 10 05:27:04 pm Message-ID: > > What would Heathkit do? Serious question : Apart from the obvious one [1], was there any Heathkit that required SMD assembly? I seem to remember that some later Heathkits were nto really kits at all, with very little soldering to do :-( I am not sure if any Velleman kits involve SMD assmbly, certainlty the ones I've built have been all through-hole. I seem to remember at least one Maplin kit (back when Maplin made and sold their own range of kits) that had some SMD parts, though. [1] Heathkit prodcued an education kit to teach SMD soldering. You ended up making a flashing light or something uisng SMD components. Needless to say that one did come with an unpolulated PCB -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 13:39:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:39:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C1FD0D7.3060205@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 21, 10 04:51:35 pm Message-ID: > I am 100% convinced that the vast majority of people who have trouble > soldering surface-mount components are the ones who say "ah knows howta > solder!" and charge in with their 20-year-old, $7 Radio Shack iron and > 1/8" diameter solder ("it's just a hobby, I don't need good tools!") and > try to solder like it's through-hole, refusing to accept the notion that > it's a DIFFERENT TASK and as such requires DIFFERENT TOOLS. And I am convinced that most of those who claim that SMD work is difficult are those who have never tried it becuase they know it's difficult. My guessis that if they actually grabbed a suitable iron and had a go they;d find it remarkably simple. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 14:05:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:05:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: from "A. Christoff Baumann" at Jun 21, 10 02:40:42 pm Message-ID: > > > On Jun 21, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I have no problem with that at all. If they DON'T WANT to, that's > > fine. What I have a problem with is the knee-jerk reaction of "SMT =3D=3D= > > > HARD", which is complete and utter bullshit. > > Not everybody has access to a teacher as patient and as learned as you. = FWIW I never had a teacher. I just grabbed the soldering iron and put the chip on the PCB. No problem... > For most of us, we've only had to learn by trying it and failing a lot = > of the time, and we've found that SMT is hard. If nothing else, the = I still wonder how mcuh of this is 'we know SMD is hard so we're not going to be able to do it, so it's hard' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 14:10:56 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:10:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FFA2B.7060607@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 21, 10 06:47:55 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > This may well me my last post to the list for many reasons... > > You shall be missed if it is, just so you know. Well, it wasn;t my last post.... However, given some of the comments made about and to me some weeks back, I would have thought some peope would be glad to see me go. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 13:48:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:48:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 21, 10 09:54:29 pm Message-ID: > The BP fleamarket seemed to be all BBC Model Bs, Sinclair Spectrums and=20 > ZX81s. Starting prices around the =A350 mark..... yeesh. As I understand=20 Yes, that's waht I gathered from the photos... > it, it was all extras from the TNMoC collection, not a bring-and-buy. I see. There are a couple of issues here... Firstly, if I'd donated stuff to TNMoC collection, I would be somewhat unahppy to see it being sold off at high prices. Sendonly, it appears that my earlier comments, the ones I was flamed alive for, have some basis in fact. This does appear to have been a TNMoC event with ethusiasts tacked on. And it does seem to have concentrated on home micros. And while home micros are undobtedly part of vintage computing, they are not the whole story by any means. > > I used to frequent > > radio rallies, not to get complete transmitters or receivers, but to fi= > nd > > odd bits -- the connector I needed to fit $device, an odd PCB that I kn= > ew > > would fit the machine I was working on (or that contained ICs I needed)= > , > > things like that. Was there anything like that at the VCF? > > Nope, not even close. I am feeling ever happier I saved my money by not attending... > > I suspect the threat of The Wrath of The Ambulance-Chaser has put paid=20 > to most of these. The organisers are just too scared that someone will=20 Hmmm... Again, I think my comment about it being an event for the general public has some relevance here. If it was a group of enthusiasts getting together to exchange information and machines there would be little problem.. Enthusiasts are going to do the inspections and tests. Enthusiasts are unlikely tro blame others... OK, perhaps I go over the top, I put a 1000V insulation tester on every electrical device that comes in here, new or old. If it's old, I just fix the problem if one exists, realising that an old device is likely to need repairs. If it's new, I would certianly inform the manufacturer of a possible safety hazard, but it's never come to that. I still check though. > The Barnsley "Great Northern" hamfest is still good though -- they book=20 > out one of the two basement-level gyms/sports halls in the Metrodome,=20 > and the entire room (a good sized basketball court) is lined with=20 > tables. You have to watch out for the good bargains, but you often see=20 > really unusual surplus parts you'd never buy new from a supplier. Yes, that's like the radio rallies I used to attend. All sorts of odd devices, parts, PCBs, computers, radio stuff, valves, and so on . > OK, I'm going to say two things about that: > 1) LOL! > 2) Want one! (2) I believe there are companies that will print anything (within reason) on a T-shrit, hoodie, or whatever... I don't see why they'd object to printing one with that on it. > > > I would wear the jumper my late mother knitted for me. There's at least > > one picture of me wearing it on the net, it has a pattern which is > > appicable to me (both what I studied and what I enjoy). > > A visual representation of the Doppler Effect? Oh no, Something much more hackish than that.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 14:35:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:35:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: from "RodSmallwood" at Jun 22, 10 06:02:06 am Message-ID: > > I did not attend either but went to my local amateur radio clubs boot = > sale. > I picked up a DEC Multia for =A35.00. It was marked =A310.00 but when = > the guy > selling it said "It's not a PC" I offered =A35.00 and got it! Nice!. Reminds meof the time some years ago when I was going round a radio rally and noticed a brown tower case with a monitor next to it. The seller said 'it doesn't run Windows' (which increased my interest...) and pulled one of the borad to show 4 40 pin chips (which I correctly guessed were 2901s or similar). I got the machine for a tenner. Only later did I realise I'd bought a complete Xerox Daybreak :-) > So who had the better day? Me or those who went to BP? > Or me, who spent the time investigating an interestign HP serial interface module containing an 8048 microcotnroller and a Z80-SIO serial chip... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 14:37:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 20:37:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jun 22, 10 00:58:35 am Message-ID: > I would appear to have been binned from the mailing list, it was facebook > that mithered me about the festival but too late for me to do anything abou= > t > it. Things to have taken - KIM1, kit-built NASCOM1, Tangerine Microtan65, > Ohio Superboard II, Jupiter ACE, Amiga 1000, unassembled ZX81 kit, original > 16K Spectrum etc etc. Oh well. So, who's going to flame him for being 'egotistical' in wanting to show (off?) his own collection? -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 22 15:00:13 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 14:00:13 -0600 Subject: Plain text pedantry was Re: Heathkit was Re: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 22 Jun 2010 12:05:35 -0700. <8E7A0F47-FEFD-4BFA-A834-9D8BDCF224DD@feedle.net> Message-ID: In article <8E7A0F47-FEFD-4BFA-A834-9D8BDCF224DD at feedle.net>, "A. Christoff Baumann" writes: > On Jun 22, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > That said, the only mandate is that paragraph length be less than 998 > > characters, so the line is still technically compliant. It is, = > however, > > still a very long line no matter how wide your terminal is. > > Allow me to be more specific. See the raw message at = > http://fedl.info/a/messageoutput.txt as delivered back to me by the = > mailing list. If I am reading RFC 3676 correctly (and I've only read it for the first time today, so perhaps not), there are problems with the message you've given at the above URL: 1. The Format=Flowed parameter isn't given in the Content-Type header as described in section 4. If Format=Flowed isn't present, the mailer is to assume Format=Fixed. This message appears to be half-compliant with the RFC. Its unknown to me if its the user's MUA that is the problem or the mailing list software. 2. Quoted-printable is used against the SHOULD recommendation in 4.2. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 22 15:02:45 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 22, 10 07:39:04 pm" Message-ID: <201006222002.o5MK2jc1019498@floodgap.com> > > I am 100% convinced that the vast majority of people who have trouble > > soldering surface-mount components are the ones who say "ah knows howta > > solder!" and charge in with their 20-year-old, $7 Radio Shack iron and > > 1/8" diameter solder ("it's just a hobby, I don't need good tools!") and > > try to solder like it's through-hole, refusing to accept the notion that > > it's a DIFFERENT TASK and as such requires DIFFERENT TOOLS. > > And I am convinced that most of those who claim that SMD work is > difficult are those who have never tried it becuase they know it's > difficult. My guessis that if they actually grabbed a suitable iron and > had a go they;d find it remarkably simple. Thus doth the cycle perpetuate. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity -- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 22 15:08:54 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 21:08:54 +0100 Subject: M9060 Message-ID: <003a01cb1246$be6a2870$3b3e7950$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have a MicroVAX 3400. It uses quite a lot of power compared to my other MicroVAXen (about 180-200W). It has an M9060 Load Module installed and I understand that this is needed to give the power supplies enough load to work correctly. However, if I have enough stuff already in the machine then it would seem that this module is just sucking up power needlessly. How much stuff do you need in the machine to make the M9060 redundant? At the moment I have a KA640 CPU and a KA655 CPU, two 16MB memory boards a DESQA and the TK70 controller. I do not yet have any DSSI disks for it, nor do I have a KFQSA, but the KA640 has DSSI built in. Incidentally, anyone know why this machine has two PSUs if they are not (as I have read somewhere) redundant? Regards Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 15:13:03 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:13:03 -0400 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/22/10, Tony Duell wrote: > [1] Heathkit prodcued an education kit to teach SMD soldering. You ended > up making a flashing light or something uisng SMD components. Needless to > say that one did come with an unpolulated PCB I built that kit, c. 1990. There were two PCBs - the one I remember had a line of SOT-23 LEDs and an LM339 in an SO package. There were a couple of machined pin socket pins for inputs - you could insert an electret microphone to turn the board into an audio level display, or replace the microphone with an LDR to display light levels. The louder or brighter the room, the taller the line of lit LEDs. The only through-hole parts were the input pins and the CR2032 holder. Everything was SO and SOT-23 and 1206 sized. At the time I did it, it was challenging to me, but at least it worked the first time. Since then, with practice, 1206 and SO stuff is old hat, and I work down to 0.5mm QFPs and 805s with no difficulty (IOB6120, Makerbot Sanguino and Arduino boards, Makerbot wristwatch, stepper controllers, etc). Even though I'm over 40, I still have steady hands and good close-in vision. I wouldn't hesitate to do most SMT short of BGAs. I'm keeping my eyes out for a 20X-25X binocular dissection microscope for the day when I can't see so well. Until then, I'll just keep at it like I have been. It may be inexpensive to get "kits" pre-soldered overseas, but I don't mind the work, and I've seen more than a few hobby-level products with low yields due to poor construction. If I build it myself, I know it's good. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 22 15:13:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:13:31 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: <45F4E9DB-8855-49FE-8534-F3F64ACAC2C7@feedle.net> from "A. Christoff Baumann" at Jun 21, 10 01:00:42 pm, Message-ID: <4C20B6FB.3042.110EAB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2010 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > A couple of metalurgists have said to me that lead was originally used > in solder for good reasons... I am not at all convinced that the > lead-free alternatives are as good. Heh, after I learned that lead-free solder was used by Bosch in my Volvo brick, mysterious electrical problems got a lot easier to solve. All of the relays have been resoldered with leaded solder. The next project is the instrument cluster. Something about the lead- free stuff used not holding up well to years of vibration. It also got cheaper to repair. Instead of buying a new headlight relay for $200, resoldering the PCB in the old one works just as well. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 22 15:28:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:28:42 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4C20BA8A.17976.11ED0FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2010 at 16:13, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Even though I'm over 40, I still have steady hands and good close-in > vision. I wouldn't hesitate to do most SMT short of BGAs. I'm > keeping my eyes out for a 20X-25X binocular dissection microscope for > the day when I can't see so well. Since I'm considerably past that, I've been toying with the idea of puchasing said microscope. Many years ago, I used a Bausch & Lomb Stereozoom microscope with a long arm stand and loved it. I see lots of these for sale and am tempted to spring for one. Is there anything I need to know about picking up a used one? --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 15:48:11 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:48:11 -0700 Subject: M9060 In-Reply-To: <-3028075786080642610@unknownmsgid> References: <-3028075786080642610@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 1:08 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a MicroVAX 3400. It uses quite a lot of power compared to my other > MicroVAXen (about 180-200W). It has an M9060 Load Module installed and I > understand that this is needed to give the power supplies enough load to > work correctly. However, if I have enough stuff already in the machine then > it would seem that this module is just sucking up power needlessly. How much > stuff do you need in the machine to make the M9060 redundant? > > Incidentally, anyone know why this machine has two PSUs if they are not (as > I have read somewhere) redundant? The power planes of a BA213 backplane are split into a left half (slots 7 to 12) and a right half (slots 1 to 6). Each power suppy only supplies its half of the backplane. If you look at the bare backplane there are power bus bars at the top and and bottom of the slots which are visibly split into a left half and a right half. The BA213 Enclosure Maintenance manual (EK-189AA-MG-001) says that a M9060 load module must be installed in one of the backplane slots 7 through 12 if the continuous minimum current drawn on the second power supply is less than 5 amperes. If the minimum current of 5 amperes is not reached, the power supply enters an error mode and shuts down the system. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Jun 22 16:07:30 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:07:30 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C1FE821.9010808@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C1FD185.5040401@philpem.me.uk> <4C1FD8C3.1050805@mac.com> <4C1FE821.9010808@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C212612.5060806@gifford.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Then put a sign on the wall like this: > > ALL items on this stand are sold as ORNAMENTAL and NON WORKING. > Electronic products are SOLD AS NON-FUNCTIONAL. All equipment > purchased should be safety tested and examined by a qualified > person. > ALL SALES FINAL, ITEMS SOLD AS-IS. > > That makes it pretty clear what the intentions of the sale are... This is pretty much what happens at the Vintage Communications Fair, which is held at the NEC in Birmingham. The signs are on display in the area where people queue to get in, so that (in principle) they know what it's all about before they pay. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Jun 22 16:13:15 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:13:15 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <001701cb118a$d7d59950$8780cbf0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <1AEBEECF88D9492FB2E88842502D1B91@xp32vm> from "Andy Holt" at Jun 21, 10 10:44:50 am <001701cb118a$d7d59950$8780cbf0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C21276B.9080402@gifford.co.uk> Rob Jarratt wrote: >>I suspect the PERQs you >>mentioned were the ones that were in the NMoC anyway > > I failed to find these, and I think they also have a Cray on display, which > I also failed to find. I should have asked someone I suppose. The PERQs and Cray are in the "Scientific Computing" room in H Block. There's a lot of DEC hardware in there, such as VAX, PDP and the like. I think the TU77 tape drive that I took to BP is in that room, too. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 22 16:21:17 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:21:17 +0100 Subject: M9060 In-Reply-To: <003a01cb1246$be6a2870$3b3e7950$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1DDFBE268DC9460796CD70C0B1055D6A@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > I have a MicroVAX 3400. It uses quite a lot of power compared > to my other MicroVAXen (about 180-200W). It has an M9060 Load > Module installed and I understand that this is needed to give > the power supplies enough load to work correctly. However, if > I have enough stuff already in the machine then it would seem > that this module is just sucking up power needlessly. How > much stuff do you need in the machine to make the M9060 > redundant? At the moment I have a KA640 CPU and a KA655 CPU, > two 16MB memory boards a DESQA and the TK70 controller. I do > not yet have any DSSI disks for it, nor do I have a KFQSA, > but the KA640 has DSSI built in. Each of the two PSUs needs to be sufficiently loaded to work and if either is not happy the system shuts down. So if you arrange to have enough load in slots 7-12 you can put the load board to one side for now. However, the CPU and memory need to be in the first few slots (iirc) and I very much doubt that a DESQA and a TQK70 are enough to keep a PSU happy. If you had a KDA50 in there you'd be fine, I would guess. > Incidentally, anyone know why this machine has two PSUs if > they are not (as I have read somewhere) redundant? I assume that there was not a single PSU around that could supply all 12 slots. There are at least two BA200 series enclosures: the 12 slot one you have and a smaller 6 slot one. I assume that a single power brick is enough for the smaller enclosure and that it was simpler to have two power bricks in the bigger enclosure rather than go off and design a more powerful brick. Remember that when these things were new 180W was chicken feed compared to the more powerful machines of the day (like the VAX 6000 series). Antonio From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 16:26:48 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:26:48 -0400 Subject: M9060 In-Reply-To: <003a01cb1246$be6a2870$3b3e7950$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <003a01cb1246$be6a2870$3b3e7950$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C212A98.40006@gmail.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a MicroVAX 3400. It uses quite a lot of power compared to my other > MicroVAXen (about 180-200W). It has an M9060 Load Module installed and I > understand that this is needed to give the power supplies enough load to > work correctly. However, if I have enough stuff already in the machine then > it would seem that this module is just sucking up power needlessly. How much > stuff do you need in the machine to make the M9060 redundant? At the moment > I have a KA640 CPU and a KA655 CPU, two 16MB memory boards a DESQA and the > TK70 controller. I do not yet have any DSSI disks for it, nor do I have a > KFQSA, but the KA640 has DSSI built in. Just remove it and see if the machine stays powered up. Peace... Sridhar From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 22 16:43:56 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:43:56 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C212E9C.70105@philpem.me.uk> On 22/06/10 19:48, Tony Duell wrote: > Oh no, Something much more hackish than that.. A Glider from Conway's "Game of Life" ? Interestingly, that's my standard test for graphics display libraries; an implementation of Life tends to take up little memory, which is good for embedded platforms. Once I get the framebuffer working and prove that put_pixel() works, Life comes pretty close behind :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 22 16:47:45 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 22:47:45 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C212F81.5090302@philpem.me.uk> On 22/06/10 20:35, Tony Duell wrote: > Or me, who spent the time investigating an interestign HP serial > interface module containing an 8048 microcotnroller and a Z80-SIO serial > chip... Reverse engineering is a great way to spend a day! :) I've got a Planar EL panel on my desk, "liberated" from a supply of Sun spares (apparently it's meant for a StorEdge A5000 series box). 160x80 pixels, and a 6x3 touchscreen. Very cool looking -- though interestingly my camera picks it up as green, even though it's an amber display (looks like a hybrid of a GRiD gas-plasma panel and an amber CRT). Natch. Anyway, I think I spent about three days probing and tweaking it. It's a standard controller (Epson SED1335) but the touch screen controller is an ASIC. Turns out it's nice and simple though... Full details (pinouts and code) on my website if anyone's interested. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 22 17:16:00 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:16:00 +0100 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard Message-ID: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I was given a Sun Ultra 5 the other day, not really a vintage machine, at least not yet, hence "slightly OT". I don't know anything about these machines but I expect there will be people on this list who do. The machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at least a keyboard to get it to boot. I believe I may need a type-5 or type-6 keyboard with a mini-DIN connector. I can't find much on eBay. Can anyone tell me where to find such a keyboard? I don't want to spend a lot because Sun is not my thing really, but it would be nice to get it working. Thanks Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 17:31:45 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:31:45 -0400 Subject: EL display from StorEdge A5000 (was Re: photos from VCF UK etc) Message-ID: On 6/22/10, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Reverse engineering is a great way to spend a day! :) Many of my nicer ones have been spent thusly. > I've got a Planar EL panel on my desk, "liberated" from a supply of Sun > spares (apparently it's meant for a StorEdge A5000 series box). 160x80 > pixels, and a 6x3 touchscreen. Very cool looking Sounds really cool. > Anyway, I think I spent about three days probing and tweaking it. It's a > standard controller (Epson SED1335) but the touch screen controller is > an ASIC. Turns out it's nice and simple though... Full details (pinouts > and code) on my website if anyone's interested. I'll have to check it out - I've been hacking HD44780 and T6963 and SED displays for years for LCDproc. It's especially fun to pull on from some dead bit of technical kit and put the LCD back in service. I've done that with a $8 front panel from a satellite TV converter box (LEDs, buttons and 2x40 HD44780 LCD) among others. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 17:35:19 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 18:35:19 -0400 Subject: EL display from StorEdge A5000 (was Re: photos from VCF UK etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/22/10, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/22/10, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Anyway, I think I spent about three days probing and tweaking it. It's a >> standard controller (Epson SED1335)... Full details (pinouts >> and code) on my website if anyone's interested. Looks like they are available for around $65 on this side of the pond - a bit pricey to play with, but still neat. Thanks for sharing the results of your efforts. -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 22 18:04:48 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 00:04:48 +0100 Subject: EL display from StorEdge A5000 (was Re: photos from VCF UK etc) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C214190.20309@philpem.me.uk> On 22/06/10 23:35, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Looks like they are available for around $65 on this side of the pond > - a bit pricey to play with, but still neat. Thanks for sharing the > results of your efforts. ?19 and change from "breconjess" on ebay. IIRC that's about $30 or so. I doubt they'll have a problem chucking a couple of them in a box and sending them air-mail, they're not particularly heavy. The display connector is a bit of a pig to find though -- I removed it and soldered on a piece of IDC cable instead. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 22 18:32:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:32:18 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <26C49459-2BEE-49C1-948D-FF5E87D42D47@neurotica.com> I can send you one for the cost of shipping, contact me off-list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL On Jun 22, 2010, at 6:16 PM, "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > I was given a Sun Ultra 5 the other day, not really a vintage > machine, at > least not yet, hence "slightly OT". I don't know anything about these > machines but I expect there will be people on this list who do. The > machine > came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at least a > keyboard to > get it to boot. I believe I may need a type-5 or type-6 keyboard > with a > mini-DIN connector. I can't find much on eBay. Can anyone tell me > where to > find such a keyboard? I don't want to spend a lot because Sun is not > my > thing really, but it would be nice to get it working. > > Thanks > > Rob From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 22 18:45:09 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 19:45:09 -0400 Subject: VME catalogs Message-ID: I have a bunch (about 13 pounds) of catalogs and datasheets for VME products from various manufacturers, plus a directory or two. Any interest in the pile for $5 plus shipping (media rate - cheap)? Contact me off list. -- Will From g-wright at att.net Tue Jun 22 19:56:58 2010 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 17:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Four Phase systems IV/90 info needed Message-ID: <746139.53244.qm@web83811.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I have one of these that I would like to get going or at least see how far i can get. I don't see much out there except Al's site. Witch has limited info. Does anyone know of? hardware and trouble shooting? manuals and what type of? terminal interface they used.? I found this is a Horse arena upside down. Jerry From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 22 15:54:26 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 13:54:26 -0700 Subject: OS/8 editors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C212302.2090701@softjar.se> David Gesswein wrote: >> > I'm very much interested in both of those. Can I talk you into making >> >them available? >> > > I have a copy of vista here > > http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/dewar-editor.rk05;sort=name > > In a search I found this > http://vandermark.ch/pdp8/local/Sources/read_dir.php?f=Other/new-22-vista-2.1981.pxg > > It appears to be the vista editor source. The actual vista source seems to > be in the empty at the end if its complete. I haven't tried to build it. Has > modules for a couple different terminals. I have the sources for VISTA as well. However, it is written in PAGE8, which is another assembler for the PDP-8. I also happen to have PAGE8, so I should make all of that available, when I have time and access to my PDP8 systems. I also have the VISTA manual, but I think I might only have it in paper form, so I guess I should try and scan that at some point as well... And yes, I'll try to upload my EMACS-clone as well. Just give me time... :-) Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 22 18:22:52 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:22:52 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2145CC.1000709@softjar.se> Don North wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: >> > >>> >> The reason why I picked a 11/70 and not a J11 as target is because my >>> >> goal is a 11/74. I've implemented the IIST already and tested against >>> >> the IIST Diagnostic I could find in XXDP (riiab0). A dual core will >>> >> fit into a single xc3s1200e of the NEXYS2 board. The work needed is >>> >> quite clear and doable (changes on cache, mmu, and cpu core for asrb). >>> >> However, I've no plans to implement the CIS, so it will always be a >>> >> subset of a 11/74. But for sure fun to do and run. >> > >> > You do know that the J11 is already designed for mP usage, except that >> > DECs testing of that was even more secret than the 11/74? >> > >> > The 11/74 definitely don't need CIS though. I don't think any >> > prototype 11/74 even had it. It was planned for the next generation of >> > the machine, that never got built. Anyway, it was to be an option for >> > the CPU as far as I know. Just as FPP. > > Here's a front panel from a 'real 11/74', the uniprocessor one with > CIS: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg Thanks for sharing that, Don. Now that I see it, I realize that I have seen it before. > Note the CIS uADDRS and other CIS status lights selectable on the rotary > switch on the right. > > The marketing dinks appropriated the 11/74 moniker for the wanna-be > 11/70mp program because '11/74' sounded better for a 4 way MP system. Yeah, as usual, name confusion is fun. Interestingly enough, RSX identifies the 11/70mp as an 11/74. > After the 11/74 CIS COBOL benchmarks came in, the native PDP-11 CIS > implementation on the 11/74 blew the 11/780 benchmarks away. DEC > marketing did not like this; it made selling business customers the just > released 11/780 more difficult. The decision was made to kill the 11/74 > CIS option the day we released it to manufacturing in favor of the new > VAX system. I wasn't aware that any prototypes ever were produced and came as far as being functional. I thought it was just paper work that had bee done. > Johnny is right, the 11/74 option was a multiboard set (just like the > FPP option) that could be plugged into the new 11/74 backplane (which > was an 11/70 backplane with all the CPU and FPP slots pushed down by > four to make room for the CIS option in the first slots). > > I wish I had saved more documentation (print sets, microcode listings, > etc) but to my knowledge none of this survives for the 11/74 CIS. Only > my front plex panel which I took as a souvenir. > > I was one of the three engineers who wrote the microcode for the CIS > option subsystem (total of 4K words of 96bit wide horizontal microcode). Nice to hear. Too bad the machine never got to production. It would have been a nice system... Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 22 18:24:48 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:24:48 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C214640.9090904@softjar.se> "RodSmallwood" wrote: > How difficult would it be to extend one of these FGPA PDP-11's to be put on > a quad DEC board and be a plug in replacement for say an 11/93 or 11/94 CPU. > (M8981-AA OR 11/91-BA)? You would need to implement the whole bus arbitration and protocol logic. And hook that up to the cpu. But that should be it. Not sure how difficult it would be. DEC had a pretty big chip that did all of that from the J11. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 22 18:36:32 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:36:32 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C214900.80106@softjar.se> Don North wrote: > On 6/22/2010 12:34 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Johnny is right, the 11/74 option was a multiboard set (just like the >>> >> FPP option) that could be plugged into the new 11/74 backplane (which >>> >> was an 11/70 backplane with all the CPU and FPP slots pushed down by >>> >> four to make room for the CIS option in the first slots). >>> >> >> > How was this achived? By reducing the Massbus card space by 4 boards >> > so 3 interface sections were available? Or by redesigning the processor >> > in such a way that there were less boards needed? >> > >> > Ed >> > >> > > > Removed one of the MASSBUS controllers. That makes sense. MASSBUS was on the decline anyway. And if you were going with mP systems, you could hook up massbuses to several CPUs, meaning you'd get a lot of them in the end anyway. Or actually, this was probably when MASSBUS was still very much hip. Well, mP still meant you could get lots of massbuses on the system, and RSX-11M+ supported mixed massbus configurations anyway, so you could get away with fewer massbuses. The other option would have been to remove the 4 slot Unibus at the back of the CPU, and just have the single SPC slot, and the out. > The CPU board set was essentially the same, slot for slot. There were > several boards that needed rev/ECO to provide hooks for the CIS option, > but all in all these were minor updates and were backward compatible. As far as I can tell, it's both changes for CIS, and also changes for mP capabilities. > IIRC the main change was to add additional microcode to the base 11/70 > microengine (from 256 to 512 words) by doubling the PROM bit density. > This code did all the base instruction dispatch and operand fetch for > the CIS unit. Looked through the document you provided in another post. Interesting stuff... Johnny From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 23 02:17:37 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 09:17:37 +0200 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 22 Jun 2010 23:16:00 +0100 "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > The machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at > least a keyboard to get it to boot. If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine lives at all via the serial console. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jun 23 04:08:44 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:08:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OS/8 editors In-Reply-To: <4C212302.2090701@softjar.se> References: <4C212302.2090701@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jun 2010, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> In a search I found this >> http://vandermark.ch/pdp8/local/Sources/read_dir.php?f=Other/new-22-vista-2.1981.pxg >> >> It appears to be the vista editor source. The actual vista source seems to >> be in the empty at the end if its complete. I haven't tried to build it. >> Has >> modules for a couple different terminals. > > I have the sources for VISTA as well. However, it is written in PAGE8, which > is another assembler for the PDP-8. I also happen to have PAGE8, so I should > make all of that available, when I have time and access to my PDP8 systems. The PAGE8 assembler and the manual (both as ACID and as formatted text file) are can be found on van der Mark's site, too; see http://vandermark.ch/pdp8/local/read_dirs_all.php?list=16 Christian From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 11:12:41 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:12:41 +0100 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2145CC.1000709@softjar.se> Message-ID: <9BF5792D6F534221AEF1F3C6D8598032@ANTONIOPC> Johnny Billquist [bqt at softjar.se] wrote: > I wasn't aware that any prototypes ever were produced and > came as far as > being functional. I thought it was just paper work that had bee done. iirc CASTOR and POLLUX were PDP-11/74s that were actually used by one of the DEC PDP-11 software groups for a while. (Or maybe the PDP-11/74 was used for a while and then broken up to form CASTOR and POLLUX ... ) > Nice to hear. Too bad the machine never got to production. It > would have > been a nice system... I've read somewhere that it was full of flat ribbon cables and would have been a beast to maintain. Antonio From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jun 23 12:01:45 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue at hawkmountain.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 13:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Multiflow documentation Message-ID: <58269.67.93.24.222.1277312505.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> I have a "moving box" filled with Multiflow documentation at my workplace. According to wikipedia, they only sold 125? systems. Intermediate Language Document Version 4.3 -- unbound, stamped Company Confidential all over The UNIX Operation System Programmer's Reference Manual, Section 1 -- in Multiflow 3 ring binder The UNIX Operation System Multiflow System Administrator's Guide, Reference Manual, and Supplement -- in Multiflow 3 ring binder The UNIX Operating System Programmer's Supplement, Parts I and II -- in Multiflow 3 ring binder Multiflow Forgran User's Guide and Reference Manual -- in Multiflow 3 ring binder Multiflow Computer Miscellaneous Documents -- in Multiflow 3 ring binder TRACE/UNIX Programmer's Reference Manual Sections 2-7 -- in Multiflow 3 ring binder Multiflow TRACE Assembler and Operation Set Refrence Manual & Data Transfer Guide & C Language Notes -- in Multiflow 3 ring binder The UNIX Operating System Multiflow System Administrator's Guide Reference Manual, and Supplement -- in Multiflow 3 ring binder I really can't accept the task of preserving them myself. I've had these at work (and I believe I posted them once before (if not on this list, then on another)). I don't know if any Multiflow Systems survive today, but it would be a shame to see these recycled. They are located in Cambridge MA near the Alewife redline T station stop. If you have the means to pick these up, are are willing to pay to have these shipped... please give these a home.... it would be great to see these preserved on a site like bitsavers rather than lost for all time. -- Curt From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 23 12:36:21 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:36:21 -0700 Subject: Multiflow documentation In-Reply-To: <58269.67.93.24.222.1277312505.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> References: <58269.67.93.24.222.1277312505.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4C224615.2080604@bitsavers.org> On 6/23/10 10:01 AM, rescue at hawkmountain.net wrote: > I don't know if any Multiflow Systems survive today, but it would be > a shame to see these recycled. > CHM has a machine, but we don't have the docs. > If you are are willing to pay to have > these shipped... please give these a home.... OK. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 23 12:37:14 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 13:37:14 -0400 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net> <4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com> <5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net> <39EB80F4-8778-463D-AE7C-8D8428FA30E1@feedle.net> <2DA726CF-C07E-4D59-B417-371BFAC3CF36@feedle.net> <4C20E291.40009@neurotica.com> <66F709DE-6010-4D3F-B762-275BA6420E33@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C22464A.8060905@neurotica.com> On 6/22/10 3:22 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I don't really see that. In fact, I remember when there was six electronics parts stores (excluding RadioShack) within a short bicycle ride of my house in the early 1980's in Southern California. All but one is gone. > > Yes, brick and mortar electronics parts stores are a vanishing breed. > All the ones I knew as a kid are gone, and nothing is replacing them. > The same is true for the surplus market - the old line is just about > gone, and very few new guys are stepping up. > >>> Electronic kits: There are more electronic kit vendors... > > The 1950s and 60s were the golden era of the electronic kit, with FAR > more vendors than today. Even some of the big guns tried the kit > business (Hallicrafters and National, to name two), but they could > never match the Heathkit standard, so they disappeared quickly. Most > of the vendors, like today, were small, and now completely forgotten. > If you look in the old trade rags and electronics hobby magazines, you > will start to see just how wide the kit business was back then. The > resurgence in kits in the last ten years is actually just a little > bump in the big picture. [cue Twilight Zone music once again] Are you even looking at where these sellers actually are today, which is online? I wasn't alive in the 50s or 60s, but I can tell you that what I saw in the 70s was NOTHING compared to what we've got now. The only advantage back then is I could ride my bike up the road and buy parts at Radio Shack, while now I have to wait 2-3 days for stuff to arrive via FedEx or UPS. There are hundreds of component suppliers, and dozens of kit vendors. Are you seriously asserting that there were more than that in the 1950s or 1960s? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 23 12:39:48 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 13:39:48 -0400 Subject: Heathkit (was RE: partial P112 kits) In-Reply-To: References: <4C20F9BF.4090605@west.net> <05F6B0D6-99C6-4FB6-B93A-4F11B95B176C@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4C2246E4.9060603@neurotica.com> On 6/22/10 3:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Most people I think understand amateur radio often picks up a lot of the slack in disaster communications, > > Well, not that much. The ARRL has stretched the importance of ham > radio in disaster situations pretty far. Yes, it is good PR, and yes, > having the ham radio bands as a backup is good, but in reality the > cops, military and firemen still use their own radios nearly all the > time, even in the most dire situations. The 2m and 440 bands were packed CHOCK FULL of emergency traffic during Hurricane Charley, just FYI. I'm sure it was a drop in the bucket compared to the stuff on the cop and fire bands, but finding a chunk of unused spectrum during that mess was damn near impossible. I only mention this because you weren't here and wouldn't have seen it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 23 12:48:45 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 10:48:45 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <9BF5792D6F534221AEF1F3C6D8598032@ANTONIOPC> References: <9BF5792D6F534221AEF1F3C6D8598032@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4C2248FD.6000406@brouhaha.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > I've read somewhere that it [PDP-11/74] was full of flat ribbon cables > and would > have been a beast to maintain. > I've heard that too, but it doesn't make sense. Lots of machines were full of cables of various sorts, including flat cables, and that didn't inherently make them especially hard to maintain. It sounds like an excuse that the marketing department generated, not engineering. Naturally a four-processor system would be harder to maintain than a one-processor system. If they didn't make at least some minimal provisions for serviceability, then it would be more than 4x as hard. However, with some serviceability provisions, it becomes only slightly harder. If you read the few docs that exist on the 11/74, the designers most definitely did include serviceability provisions. The 11/74 probably would have been *easier* to maintain than the VAX-11/780 was. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 12:25:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:25:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <201006222002.o5MK2jc1019498@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Jun 22, 10 01:02:45 pm Message-ID: > > And I am convinced that most of those who claim that SMD work is > > difficult are those who have never tried it becuase they know it's > > difficult. My guessis that if they actually grabbed a suitable iron and > > had a go they;d find it remarkably simple. > > Thus doth the cycle perpetuate. I feel the same way about through-hole (or tagstrip, or ....) soldering. People keep on telling me that soldering is hard. I actually wonder if they've tried and practiced with a soldering iron, or if they were just told it's hard and believe it. On the other hand, I know that if you find a skill easy, it's difficult for you to think that anyone will find it difficult. WHich is incorrect, of course. There are plenty of things that I find impossible that others find trivial. To tie into another thread, one of the photos of the VCF-UK that I saw (I can't rememeber who took said picture) seemed to be of Spectrum (?) ULA built from simple logic chips on large plugblock breadboard. While that's undoubtedly a great hack, I do have to wonder why the chap didn't solder it up on stripboard or similar. Anyone who has the dedication and knowledge to make a copy of the ULA is capable of learning to solder. And the resuylt would be a lot more permanent and probably more reliable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 12:40:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:40:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <4C20B6FB.3042.110EAB3@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 22, 10 01:13:31 pm Message-ID: > > On 22 Jun 2010 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > > > A couple of metalurgists have said to me that lead was originally used > > in solder for good reasons... I am not at all convinced that the > > lead-free alternatives are as good. > > Heh, after I learned that lead-free solder was used by Bosch in my > Volvo brick, mysterious electrical problems got a lot easier to > solve. All of the relays have been resoldered with leaded solder. > The next project is the instrument cluster. Something about the lead- I see... The workshop manual for our car specifically says that the insturmnet cluster must not be taken apart. It doesn't go into more details, but as it contains the immobiliser microcontroller and the odometer, there may well be security features (like it'll erase memory if you open it up). It's a VAG-group car, does anyone have any ideas? > free stuff used not holding up well to years of vibration. The lead-free soldered I've seen certainly seem more brittle.. A related question : Therre seem to be several types of lead-free solder, and manufacturers service manuals tell you to use a particular one (often to be bought from that manufacturer). Which means (to avoid contamination), I would need a dozen of more reels of solder and soldering iron tips. And what do I do about stuff I can't get the service manual for, or where said manual is a boardswapper guide. When it was all laed/tin solder it was easy. Is there a 'universal' lead-free solder that I can sensibly use to rework anything modern? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 12:35:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:35:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 22, 10 04:13:03 pm Message-ID: > > [1] Heathkit prodcued an education kit to teach SMD soldering. You ended > > up making a flashing light or something uisng SMD components. Needless to > > say that one did come with an unpolulated PCB > > I built that kit, c. 1990. There were two PCBs - the one I remember > had a line of SOT-23 LEDs and an LM339 in an SO package. There were a Right. I must admit I built very few Heathkits. They were expensive (compared to other kits) in the UK, and while theire manuals were excellent, I didn't need that level of hand-holding. Cheaper kits tended to come with a PCB layout diagram and a parts list and you were told to populate the board, and that level of detail was enough for me. So I mis-remembered (if I ever knew) what that Heathkit SMD kit consisted of. > couple of machined pin socket pins for inputs - you could insert an > electret microphone to turn the board into an audio level display, or > replace the microphone with an LDR to display light levels. The > louder or brighter the room, the taller the line of lit LEDs. The > only through-hole parts were the input pins and the CR2032 holder. > Everything was SO and SOT-23 and 1206 sized. > > At the time I did it, it was challenging to me, but at least it worked > the first time. Since then, with practice, 1206 and SO stuff is old > hat, and I work down to 0.5mm QFPs and 805s with no difficulty > (IOB6120, Makerbot Sanguino and Arduino boards, Makerbot wristwatch, > stepper controllers, etc). A lot of it comes down to practice (as with most things :-)). > > Even though I'm over 40, I still have steady hands and good close-in > vision. I wouldn't hesitate to do most SMT short of BGAs. I'm Yes, I don't hacve the tools to do BGAs (yet!). I think it would be reasoanble for the advert/webpage for a kit to say what was involved -- if there was any SMD work (if so, what sort of components were invovlved), if there were BGAs, etc. And possibly to prvided several 'levels' of kit -- some of the manufactuerers of model steam enginers over here supply their porducts in 3 grades -- assembled and ready to run; fully machined -- you have to clean up parts with hand tools (files, etc) and put it all toguether ; or castings and metal stock where you have to use a lathe, etc to make parts. > keeping my eyes out for a 20X-25X binocular dissection microscope for Now that would be fun. I found a nice little stereoscopic magnifier (*15 I think) for \pounds 5.00 in a charity shop a year ago -- yes I did buy it. And I was given a good binocualr eyepice but one objective (so not stereo) microscope some years ago. I didn't need either, but I like nice toys :-) > the day when I can't see so well. Until then, I'll just keep at it > like I have been. It may be inexpensive to get "kits" pre-soldered > overseas, but I don't mind the work, and I've seen more than a few > hobby-level products with low yields due to poor construction. If I > build it myself, I know it's good. Even if I say so myself, I agree with you. If I've soldered a connection, I know it's done properly. And the number of bad conenctions I've seen in new stuff recently is amazing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 12:47:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:47:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C212E9C.70105@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 22, 10 10:43:56 pm Message-ID: > > On 22/06/10 19:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > Oh no, Something much more hackish than that.. > > A Glider from Conway's "Game of Life" ? Close, you've got the right 'game'. It's actually a Gosper glider gun in one of its 30 states :-). It relates both to my love or things hackish and to particle physics (particle physcisists bang particles together and see what happens, life enthusiasts bang gliders togther and see what happens, so in a sense the glider gun is an analogue of a particle acceleerator..) > Interestingly, that's my standard test for graphics display libraries; > an implementation of Life tends to take up little memory, which is good > for embedded platforms. Once I get the framebuffer working and prove > that put_pixel() works, Life comes pretty close behind :) I have wondered for a long time if you could program an I2S iamge processor/displayu (the one with the transform sequencer board) to play life. When I figure out how to write microcode for that system (the one thing that's missing from the manuals I have), I will give it a go. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 12:48:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:48:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: photos from VCF UK etc In-Reply-To: <4C212F81.5090302@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 22, 10 10:47:45 pm Message-ID: > > On 22/06/10 20:35, Tony Duell wrote: > > Or me, who spent the time investigating an interestign HP serial > > interface module containing an 8048 microcotnroller and a Z80-SIO serial > > chip... > > Reverse engineering is a great way to spend a day! :) Depending on the device, you can replace 'day' with 'month' or even 'year' :-) -tony From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jun 23 12:57:36 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue at hawkmountain.net) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 13:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Multiflow documentation In-Reply-To: <4C224615.2080604@bitsavers.org> References: <58269.67.93.24.222.1277312505.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> <4C224615.2080604@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <61861.67.93.24.222.1277315856.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> > On 6/23/10 10:01 AM, rescue at hawkmountain.net wrote: > >> I don't know if any Multiflow Systems survive today, but it would be >> a shame to see these recycled. >> > > CHM has a machine, but we don't have the docs. > > >> If you are are willing to pay to have >> these shipped... please give these a home.... > > OK. > > OK ? I'd love to see these go to CHM since you have a machine... I have no idea what the cost would be... I'd think media mail would be the cheapest (unless you or someone you know has a great discount with UPS/FedEx/etc) thoughts ? -- Curt From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 23 13:09:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:09:44 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> On 6/23/10 3:17 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> The machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at >> least a keyboard to get it to boot. > If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on > the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before > investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine > lives at all via the serial console. Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jun 23 13:15:23 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 19:15:23 +0100 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C214640.9090904@softjar.se> References: <4C214640.9090904@softjar.se> Message-ID: <014A0D232B264270BCA1ED31623A48F6@Edicons.local> Thanks for the reply. It's worth considering The real CPU boards are a ridiculous price ($5000) Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 23 June 2010 00:25 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa "RodSmallwood" wrote: > How difficult would it be to extend one of these FGPA PDP-11's to be put on > a quad DEC board and be a plug in replacement for say an 11/93 or 11/94 CPU. > (M8981-AA OR 11/91-BA)? You would need to implement the whole bus arbitration and protocol logic. And hook that up to the cpu. But that should be it. Not sure how difficult it would be. DEC had a pretty big chip that did all of that from the J11. Johnny From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 23 13:21:30 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:21:30 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com><20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 2:09 PM Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard > On 6/23/10 3:17 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >>> The machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at >>> least a keyboard to get it to boot. >> If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on >> the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before >> investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine >> lives at all via the serial console. > > Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst > system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL They are not that bad once you add a SCSI card to the U5, a better video card would help as well. More of a cheap PC design with a sparc CPU. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 23 13:25:05 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:25:05 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com><20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> Message-ID: <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> On 6/23/10 2:21 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >>>> The machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at >>>> least a keyboard to get it to boot. >>> If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on >>> the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before >>> investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine >>> lives at all via the serial console. >> >> Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst >> system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO. > > They are not that bad once you add a SCSI card to the U5, a better video > card would help as well. More of a cheap PC design with a sparc CPU. Yes. Which is why I say they suck. :) Compare the build quality to something like an Ulra2 or an Ultra60! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 23 13:32:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:32:31 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com><20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> On 6/23/10 2:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>> The machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at >>>>> least a keyboard to get it to boot. >>>> If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on >>>> the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before >>>> investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine >>>> lives at all via the serial console. >>> >>> Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst >>> system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO. >> >> They are not that bad once you add a SCSI card to the U5, a better video >> card would help as well. More of a cheap PC design with a sparc CPU. > > Yes. Which is why I say they suck. :) Compare the build quality to > something like an Ulra2 or an Ultra60! I should amend this by stating that I don't wish to dissuade anyone from playing with them, just don't let it color your opinion of Sun systems in general if this will be your first. The Ultra5/Ultra10 really are PCs with SPARC processors grafted in...Slow, flimsy, terrible construction, not nice at all. Fun to play with, but not production-quality systems. Just my (professional) opinion. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From feedle at feedle.net Wed Jun 23 13:51:41 2010 From: feedle at feedle.net (A. Christoff Baumann) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:51:41 -0700 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 22, 2010, at 11:33 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > So hang on, if most of the board is SMD and comes pre-done, just what do > you get to build yourself? There's a lot of stuff still to assemble in a P112. There's a fairly high discrete count, as well as a big handful of chips (RAM, Flash, support ICs), more jumper pins than I care to mention, and the all-important battery holder. When the P112 comes out of the envelope it comes in it doesn't look anywhere near assembled (see a pic at http://p112.feedle.net/pics/kit-parts.jpg). This discussion is now largely irrelevant now, anyway. If you want to buy a P112 kit bare, I've got bare boards and chips on offer, and it is likely there will be enough parts in an unassembled state to meet any demand for them. I believe you've already stated you have no intention of buying one anyway, so I fail to see how further discussion is fruitful. Buy one of the bare boards or don't. My opinion is, and remains, that the P112 in the form Dave and I originally packaged the last production run (and will likely package this one) meets the needs of the people it was designed for. Both of us have received tons of positive feedback from our customers (you know, the people we're doing this for), and it is my belief that it is an excellent bridge between those used to working with modern computer-on-a-chip microcontrollers (the Stamp, Propeller, and Arduino crowd) and the world of retrocomputing. You've done nothing to sway that opinion, and likely won't: further, all the strong talk in this thread of how "SMD as hard is bullshit" and everything else from people who have outright stated they wouldn't be in the market for it anyway has just proven to me that we're doing the right thing for those who do want it. I'd love to be proven wrong and sell out my inventory of bare boards and parts. I somehow suspect my post office box will remain empty for some time. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 13:58:58 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 11:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100623113826.K86452@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I see... > The workshop manual for our car specifically says that the insturmnet > cluster must not be taken apart. It doesn't go into more details, but as > it contains the immobiliser microcontroller and the odometer, there may > well be security features (like it'll erase memory if you open it up). > It's a VAG-group car, does anyone have any ideas? Is that the same warning as the 5150 power supply? If so, how long did THAT delay you? Can you get a cheap one from a wrecking yard? Or get the dealer service manager to save a bad one for you if/when they have to replace one? > A related question : Therre seem to be several types of lead-free solder, > and manufacturers service manuals tell you to use a particular one (often > to be bought from that manufacturer). Which means (to avoid > contamination), I would need a dozen of more reels of solder and > soldering iron tips. And what do I do about stuff I can't get the service > manual for, or where said manual is a boardswapper guide. When it was all > laed/tin solder it was easy. > Is there a 'universal' lead-free solder that I can sensibly use to rework > anything modern? But the 'universal' solder has lead in it :-) I would assume that for many years, they will be coming out with new compositions of the lead-free solder. Maybe SOMEDAY they will succeed in coming up with one comparable to the stuff with lead in it. Right now, they seem to still be trying to come up with one that is marginally satisfactory. It will take a LOT of practice before I could solder SMT with lead-free solder. I should probably start that practicing, but there are higher priority tasks in the queue. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 14:21:59 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:21:59 +0100 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2248FD.6000406@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <90A6A537ACD947DA8F5D4161F51D4C9D@ANTONIOPC> Eric Smith [eric at brouhaha.com] wrote: > I've heard that too, but it doesn't make sense. I read it in an internal DEC NOTES conference but I no longer have access to any of those. If someone does then at one stage most of them were indexed by the internal altavista search engine, so (assuming it is still around) it might be the work of moments to do a search on "11/74" and find out who made the claim. Since the machine never shipped, I guess we'll never know how bad it would have been in the field. I'd be willing to make room for one despite its clearly poor reputation :-) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 14:24:56 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:24:56 +0100 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <489AFC4A1ACB467DB28276EE9321FC77@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > To tie into another thread, one of the photos of the VCF-UK > that I saw (I > can't rememeber who took said picture) seemed to be of > Spectrum (?) ULA > built from simple logic chips on large plugblock breadboard. > While that's > undoubtedly a great hack, I do have to wonder why the chap > didn't solder > it up on stripboard or similar. Anyone who has the dedication and > knowledge to make a copy of the ULA is capable of learning to solder. > And the resuylt would be a lot more permanent and probably more > reliable. At DEC I did see (but never snagged) the wire-wrapped DHV11 protoype (filled a BA23-size chassis). It had been wire-wrapped by an external wire-wrapping house and then the various snags were fixed up in house. Perhaps the ULA builder was also a reverse-engineer and found it easier to wire-wrap whilst working out the design rather than building on stripboard? (Was the ULA design ever made public?) Antonio From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jun 23 14:27:03 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:27:03 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> Message-ID: Here are my photos from last Saturday http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2010/2010_06_19_BP/ But I got a surprise Monday when looking at the beebs website technology page, they used my mugshot on the link Dave Caroline From rogpugh at mac.com Wed Jun 23 14:32:23 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:32:23 +0100 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$%jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$%jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C226147.3000907@mac.com> On 06/22/2010 23:16, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I believe I may need a type-5 or type-6 keyboard with a > mini-DIN connector. I can't find much on eBay. Can anyone tell me where to > find such a keyboard? I don't want to spend a lot because Sun is not my > thing really, but it would be nice to get it working. > > Thanks > > Rob > I have a bunch of these from a job lot i bought if you want one and dont mind scraping some grime off them! I think i have a 5c and a 6 keyboard does that sound the correct sort? Roger From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 14:47:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:47:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <20100623113826.K86452@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 23, 10 11:58:58 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 23 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > I see... > > The workshop manual for our car specifically says that the insturmnet > > cluster must not be taken apart. It doesn't go into more details, but as > > it contains the immobiliser microcontroller and the odometer, there may > > well be security features (like it'll erase memory if you open it up). > > It's a VAG-group car, does anyone have any ideas? > > Is that the same warning as the 5150 power supply? Not really. The 5150 PSU warning was understandable based on the fact that there's 400V DC inside, and that voltage could remain even after the mains lead was removed. There is no similar hazard that I can think of in a car instrument cluster (the user displays are a mixture of analogue pointers, LEDs and LCDs). And the workshop manual (official, not a 'home mechanic manual' is very clear about not dismantling it, but it doesn't give any explanation. > If so, how long did THAT delay you? Just until I could grab my tamperproof Torx bits :-) > Can you get a cheap one from a wrecking yard? Or get the dealer service > manager to save a bad one for you if/when they have to replace one? The former is possible, the latter is less likely (although I am already known to be crazy by my local dealer, I ordered the workshop manual, all 11 binders of it, and I've bought some of the special service tools...) > > > > A related question : Therre seem to be several types of lead-free solder, > > and manufacturers service manuals tell you to use a particular one (often > > to be bought from that manufacturer). Which means (to avoid > > contamination), I would need a dozen of more reels of solder and > > soldering iron tips. And what do I do about stuff I can't get the service > > manual for, or where said manual is a boardswapper guide. When it was all > > laed/tin solder it was easy. > > Is there a 'universal' lead-free solder that I can sensibly use to rework > > anything modern? > > But the 'universal' solder has lead in it :-) Sure, and that's OK for repairs on things I own (as I understand the regulations I can do pretty much what I like to stuff I own). But if I am repairing something for someone else, then I am not allowed to use leaded solder if it was oriignally lead-free. > I would assume that for many years, they will be coming out with new > compositions of the lead-free solder. Maybe SOMEDAY they will succeed in > coming up with one comparable to the stuff with lead in it. > Right now, they seem to still be trying to come up with one that is > marginally satisfactory. Alas I feel that's the case... > > It will take a LOT of practice before I could solder SMT with lead-free > solder. I should probably start that practicing, but there are higher > priority tasks in the queue. I am not looking forward to having to repair our Sony LCD TV. You are supposed to fix the signals PCB to component level, it's got at least on BGA chip on it and several fine-pitch PQFPs. And lots of SMD discretes. They specify a specail (lead free) solder to use too. And all the documentation you get is a schematic, no waveforms or other tests. That is going to be 'fun' for suitable values of fun.. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 23 14:53:38 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 15:53:38 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4C226147.3000907@mac.com> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$%jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4C226147.3000907@mac.com> Message-ID: <4C226642.7080906@neurotica.com> On 6/23/10 3:32 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: >> I believe I may need a type-5 or type-6 keyboard with a >> mini-DIN connector. I can't find much on eBay. Can anyone tell me >> where to >> find such a keyboard? I don't want to spend a lot because Sun is not my >> thing really, but it would be nice to get it working. > > I have a bunch of these from a job lot i bought if you want one and dont > mind scraping some grime off them! > > I think i have a 5c and a 6 keyboard > does that sound the correct sort? This should be fine as long as it's the Sun-interfaced version, not USB. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 14:56:29 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 20:56:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: <489AFC4A1ACB467DB28276EE9321FC77@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jun 23, 10 08:24:56 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > To tie into another thread, one of the photos of the VCF-UK > > that I saw (I > > can't rememeber who took said picture) seemed to be of > > Spectrum (?) ULA > > built from simple logic chips on large plugblock breadboard. > > While that's > > undoubtedly a great hack, I do have to wonder why the chap > > didn't solder > > it up on stripboard or similar. Anyone who has the dedication and > > knowledge to make a copy of the ULA is capable of learning to solder. > > And the resuylt would be a lot more permanent and probably more > > reliable. > > At DEC I did see (but never snagged) the wire-wrapped DHV11 protoype > (filled a BA23-size chassis). It had been wire-wrapped by an external > wire-wrapping house and then the various snags were fixed up in house. > > Perhaps the ULA builder was also a reverse-engineer and found it easier > to wire-wrap whilst working out the design rather than building on > stripboard? (Was the ULA design ever made public?) Wire-wrapping id fine, and very reliable. It's also pretty stable. Those solderless plugblock breadboards are none of the above :-) I am quite sure he needed to test and modify the design as he went along, and maybe it;s easier to do that on a solderless breadboard (I doubt it, actually, I had so many problems from bad connections on those darn things)... But it's not had to 'edit' a design on stripboard. So perhaps transfer each bit to stripboard as you get it finalised? Cerrtainly if I'd managd to make a clone of a ULA in such a machine I would not have kept it on a solderless breadboard, even if I'd used one to develop the reverse-engineered design. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 23 16:14:21 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:14:21 +0100 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4C226147.3000907@mac.com> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$%jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4C226147.3000907@mac.com> Message-ID: <006e01cb1319$0fb6cee0$2f246ca0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Are you in the UK? I seem to need a mini-DIN connector which looks like it has 8 pins. I also believe the mouse connects to the keyboard, I am not sure if it has to be a special mouse or not, but if you have a mouse to go with the keyboard that would be even better. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Pugh > Sent: 23 June 2010 20:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard > > On 06/22/2010 23:16, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I believe I may need a type-5 or type-6 keyboard with a > > mini-DIN connector. I can't find much on eBay. Can anyone tell me > where to > > find such a keyboard? I don't want to spend a lot because Sun is not > my > > thing really, but it would be nice to get it working. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > > I have a bunch of these from a job lot i bought if you want one and > dont > mind scraping some grime off them! > > I think i have a 5c and a 6 keyboard > does that sound the correct sort? > > Roger From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 23 16:21:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:21:29 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <006e01cb1319$0fb6cee0$2f246ca0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$%jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4C226147.3000907@mac.com> <006e01cb1319$0fb6cee0$2f246ca0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C227AD9.5030704@neurotica.com> On 6/23/10 5:14 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Are you in the UK? I seem to need a mini-DIN connector which looks like it > has 8 pins. I also believe the mouse connects to the keyboard, I am not sure > if it has to be a special mouse or not, but if you have a mouse to go with > the keyboard that would be even better. It does not need to be a "special" mouse, but it DOES need to be a Sun mouse. I say that because they're far more common in my world than those other weird mice that PCs use. ;) But yes, the mouse connects to the keyboard, and you will need one if you intend to run the machine as a graphical workstation. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rogpugh at mac.com Wed Jun 23 16:24:55 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:24:55 +0100 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <006e01cb1319$0fb6cee0$2f246ca0$%jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$%jarratt@ntlworld.com> <4C226147.3000907@mac.com> <006e01cb1319$0fb6cee0$2f246ca0$%jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4C227BA7.5040602@mac.com> On 06/23/2010 22:14, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Are you in the UK? I seem to need a mini-DIN connector which looks like it > has 8 pins. I also believe the mouse connects to the keyboard, I am not sure > if it has to be a special mouse or not, but if you have a mouse to go with > the keyboard that would be even better. > > Thanks I only have one mouse but 4 keyboards.. I can send you a keyboard but not the mouse if you like. I'm in West Sussex, contact me off list i guess Roger From ats at offog.org Wed Jun 23 17:48:36 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 23:48:36 +0100 Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: (Tony Duell's message of "Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:25:43 +0100 (BST)") References: Message-ID: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > While that's undoubtedly a great hack, I do have to wonder why the > chap didn't solder it up on stripboard or similar. Because that was the prototype, and it went through a lot of tweaking to get it to a fully-working state. The final version collapses all the logic into a VHDL description for a CPLD or FPGA, which is much more practical but less fun to look at (and, presumably, harder to debug since you can't stick a scope on internal signals so easily). You'll probably find Chris Smith's site about the design interesting -- I certainly did! http://www.zxdesign.info/indexPage.shtml -- Adam Sampson From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 23 17:48:10 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:48:10 -0500 Subject: OT/Dead Media: recovering oldest radio recordings Message-ID: <201006232259.o5NMx1W9090891@billY.EZWIND.NET> http://www.gereports.com/edison-speaks-cracking-the-pallophotophone-code/ - John From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 23 18:30:16 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:30:16 -0600 Subject: OT/Dead Media: recovering oldest radio recordings In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 23 Jun 2010 17:48:10 -0500. <201006232259.o5NMx1W9090891@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article <201006232259.o5NMx1W9090891 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, John Foust writes: > http://www.gereports.com/edison-speaks-cracking-the-pallophotophone-code/ Yeah, I saw that posted elsewhere (instapundit, if anyone cares) and it sounded like they went about things the hard way. They reproduced the mechanical device. I would have imaged the film and done it all in software. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Jun 24 01:00:50 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 02:00:50 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> References: <004301cb1258$803c2b40$80b481c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C22F492.6070500@hawkmountain.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/23/10 3:17 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > >>> The machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at >>> least a keyboard to get it to boot. >>> >> If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on >> the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before >> investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine >> lives at all via the serial console. >> > > Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) The worst > system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO. > Maybe I just never tried to do much with my U10.... but with a 440mhz processor, it didn't seem that bad to me.... now the ones with slower procs and smaller cache... well, all they need is a 440mhz module and they are as good as they can get :-) Now if we go back in time a bit further.... the LX and Classic come to mind.... with their teeny tiny caches they could be slower than a Sparcstation 2 for certain workloads. WABI comes to mind.... it was a no go on Classic/LX. I think I'd have to vote the Classic as the worst overall system... although with a 'better' (more workstation traditional) build quality than U5/U10. The makes me think... what do folks think is the best desktop SPARC ? SS1000, U60, U80, SB2000, SB2500, U45 ? I'd tend to think the Ultra 45.... although the SB2000 uses Ultrasparc III vs Ultrasparc IIIi .... -- Curt > -Dave > > From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jun 23 16:28:58 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 14:28:58 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C227C9A.2020904@softjar.se> wrote: > Johnny Billquist [bqt at softjar.se] wrote: >> > I wasn't aware that any prototypes ever were produced and >> > came as far as >> > being functional. I thought it was just paper work that had bee done. > > iirc CASTOR and POLLUX were PDP-11/74s that were actually used by one of > the > DEC PDP-11 software groups for a while. (Or maybe the PDP-11/74 was used > for > a while and then broken up to form CASTOR and POLLUX ... ) No, both CASTOR and POLLUX was running at the same time for a while. CASTOR was used by the RSX development group while POLLUX was either DECnet or field service. I can't remember which. But I'm fairly sure that CASTOR and POLLUX were just 11/70mP systems. >> > Nice to hear. Too bad the machine never got to production. It >> > would have >> > been a nice system... > > I've read somewhere that it was full of flat ribbon cables and would > have been a beast to maintain. Yes, that is one of the stories I've heard too. But that was related to the mP systems. The 11/74 CPU as such could (I assume) be run in a single processor configuration as well, just like the 11/70. In which case, you'd just have an upgraded 11/70, which would have been nice. Johnny From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 24 09:11:00 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 16:11:00 +0200 Subject: Binary loader file for SIMH Message-ID: Hello Everybody, Does anybody happen to have the contents of the PDP-11 boot/diagnostics proms 23-248F1 & 23-616F1 available in SIMH loader format? These are the proms on the M9312 boot/termination card. Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 24 10:38:09 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:38:09 -0600 Subject: Oberon book on ebay Message-ID: Item # 270085902151 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Jun 24 10:59:26 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 11:59:26 -0400 Subject: Oberon book on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 24, 2010, at 11:38 AM, Richard wrote: > Item # 270085902151 > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! It seems to be just a public domain CD. If you go to the authors' website, you can save $3 from buying on ebay. Rob From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jun 24 11:02:59 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:02:59 -0700 Subject: Oberon book on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This appears to be a CDROM rather than a book. In fact, it's not clear just how much documentation/reference material is included. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard [legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 8:38 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Oberon book on ebay Item # 270085902151 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Jun 24 11:48:46 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:48:46 -0400 Subject: SMT soldering questions Message-ID: <4C238C6E.40408@verizon.net> I've got a Xytronic 137ESD (http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/137ESD.html). Which of these tips, keeping in mind I have the 137ESD, would be appropriate for surface mount work? http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/tips.html What temperature should I be set at for soldering? The number 630F comes to mind, but I'm not sure. What type of solder? I think I'm using 63/37, I think .015 OD. Should I use flux? In what form? A pen? A syringe? A brush? Any other standard accessories that might help? Thanks Keith From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 24 11:55:00 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:55:00 -0700 Subject: Oberon book on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C238DE4.1080206@bitsavers.org> On 6/24/10 8:38 AM, Richard wrote: > Item # 270085902151 > This guy has been selling bitsavers scans for years. He scrapes the net for scans/software. Sometimes he even puts where he found the stuff in the listings. There are 28 copies of Reiser's Oberon book on bookfinder. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 24 06:10:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: partial P112 kits In-Reply-To: from "Adam Sampson" at Jun 23, 10 11:48:36 pm Message-ID: > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > While that's undoubtedly a great hack, I do have to wonder why the > > chap didn't solder it up on stripboard or similar. > > Because that was the prototype, and it went through a lot of tweaking to > get it to a fully-working state. The final version collapses all the So? IUt's actually not much harder to tweak thigns on stripboard, and you know your problems are due to errors in the logic rather than bad connections, wired that have dropped out, or excessive stray capacitance (all of which caught me when I was silly enough to use solderless breadboards). > logic into a VHDL description for a CPLD or FPGA, which is much more Pity... Big boards to TTL are a lot more fun :-) > practical but less fun to look at (and, presumably, harder to debug > since you can't stick a scope on internal signals so easily). Indeed... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 12:36:52 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 13:36:52 -0400 Subject: SMT soldering questions In-Reply-To: <4C238C6E.40408@verizon.net> References: <4C238C6E.40408@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 6/24/10, Keith M wrote: > I've got a Xytronic 137ESD > (http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/137ESD.html). Looks nice. > Which of these tips, keeping in mind I have the 137ESD, would be > appropriate for surface mount work? > > http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/tips.html That would depend on your style. I've used larger (1/32") tips with success, but occasionally I've needed a smaller tip for touch-up work. For the flux-wet-then-drag technique for QFPs, you want a larger tip. The same size tip can probably be used successfully with 1206-sized parts, but if you intend to do a lot of work with 805s or smaller, a finer tip might be recommended, or if your parts density is so tight that you are lifting your iron in the air to clear adjacent parts. > What temperature should I be set at for soldering? The number 630F > comes to mind, but I'm not sure. That depends on your solder type, and how much mass you'll be heating up, but for leaded solder, that's not a bad place to start. If you need more heat, add more heat, though over 700F and you are probably boiling off your flux or risking lifting your pads. If you are working on ultra-low-cost PCBs (like dark brown case resin), don't get too hot or you will definitely have lifting issues. For SMT projects, you are probably using modern, high-quality FR-4 boards, so that's less of an issue. > What type of solder? I think I'm using 63/37, I think .015 OD. That's one form. Injectable solder paste can also be handy. I also use larger solder, but apply it carefully to avoid overflowing the joint. > Should I use flux? In what form? A pen? A syringe? A brush? I have a flux pen. It does 90% of what I need. I keep thinking about a flux syringe but haven't bothered buying one yet. > Any other standard accessories that might help? A solder sucker, solder wick, magnification with lots of light if you can't read the numbers on the parts, fine-point tweezers, optionally a vacuum picker to collect parts, and scotch tape (I've been known to tape down one end of 1206 parts so they don't move while I solder the other end - that was a tip given in the Heathkit SMT course I did 20 years ago). -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 24 13:06:08 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:06:08 -0600 Subject: Oberon book on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 24 Jun 2010 09:55:00 -0700. <4C238DE4.1080206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4C238DE4.1080206 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 6/24/10 8:38 AM, Richard wrote: > > Item # 270085902151 > > > > This guy has been selling bitsavers scans for years. > > He scrapes the net for scans/software. Sometimes he even puts > where he found the stuff in the listings. > > There are 28 copies of Reiser's Oberon book on bookfinder. My mistake. It popped out on one of my standing ebay queries and I didn't look at the listing in much detail since I have no interest in Oberon. At least our discussion alerted our readers to avoid this seller, just in case anyone was considering bidding on it :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jun 24 13:06:58 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 12:06:58 -0600 Subject: PLATO@50 conference video Message-ID: The CHM has put up all the conference sessions on YouTube. I've collected them into a blog post here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Jun 24 13:49:22 2010 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 11:49:22 -0700 Subject: Binary loader file for SIMH In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C23A8B2.7080509@mindspring.com> On 6/24/2010 7:11 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Hello Everybody, > > Does anybody happen to have the contents of the PDP-11 boot/diagnostics > proms 23-248F1& 23-616F1 available in SIMH loader format? > These are the proms on the M9312 boot/termination card. > > Thanks, > > Ed > You can grap the source files from: http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/ and just assemble them using macro11 (which you must have, I assume). Don From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 14:15:54 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 20:15:54 +0100 Subject: Apple 2e In-Reply-To: <4C1F0B26.7060304@gmail.com> References: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> <4C1C971E.6000108@jwsss.com> <4C1F0B26.7060304@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 21 June 2010 07:48, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: >> >> Hi jim. ?Another option could be that you could pick up an apple 2gs. >> They're very inexpensive. ?An entire 2gs might be cheaper than a super >> serial board. ?They take ADB keyboards which you might have handy. > > I come across both SSCs and //gs machines for free with some regularity. > > Peace... ?Sridhar Blimey. Wish *I* did over here. I've wanted a IIgs since the day they came out. Last one I saw for sale in GB was about ?600, I think... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 24 14:20:19 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 20:20:19 +0100 Subject: photos from VCF UK In-Reply-To: <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C1F4702.6040502@mac.com> <4C1FAE9D.5020409@neurotica.com> <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> Message-ID: On 21 June 2010 20:46, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Mon, 2010-06-21 at 14:25 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 6/21/10 7:03 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: >> > I quite fancy an IBM 360 / 30 FPGA board now i know a little about big >> > iron! >> >> ? Urr? ?Is someone working on that? > > Ah, yes. ?VCF was its debut. ?I haven't got a page up yet, but you can > see Andrew's photo at: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/4718559358/ > > Basically, it's a 1000K gate Spartan 3 which contains the microcode > store (2k x 55) and 8k x 9 of main memory. ?Front panel switches are > physical rotaries and pushbuttons; blinkenlights are via a VGA display > for now. > > Right now it fails the microcode startup diagnostics with a main memory > parity error, probably due to a race condition somewhere (the > memory /used/ to work). > > Once that's sorted, the next step is to get it executing 360 code. ?Then > adding virtual peripherals to the multiplexor and selector channels. > Then taking a 2311 DOS/360 image, and booting. ?Simple! > > Once I get the diagnostic stuff sorted I'll put an image or the VHDL up > for anyone that wants to have a go at programming it into one of the > Digilent S3 boards, or perhaps porting it to something similar. Very impressive it was too, and a pleasure to talk to you about it! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 24 15:45:26 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 16:45:26 -0400 Subject: Apple 2e References: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com><4C1C971E.6000108@jwsss.com><4C1F0B26.7060304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <38E973F220C34A528C01A87462D5C16B@dell8300> Many school systems in the US dumped whatever IIgs stock they had left a few years back (at that time you could not give them away). You can still find them here but now you have to pay a little (or a lot depending on add-ons). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Apple 2e On 21 June 2010 07:48, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: >> >> Hi jim. Another option could be that you could pick up an apple 2gs. >> They're very inexpensive. An entire 2gs might be cheaper than a super >> serial board. They take ADB keyboards which you might have handy. > > I come across both SSCs and //gs machines for free with some regularity. > > Peace... Sridhar Blimey. Wish *I* did over here. I've wanted a IIgs since the day they came out. Last one I saw for sale in GB was about ?600, I think... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jun 24 16:16:34 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 23:16:34 +0200 Subject: Digital DEC PDP 11/84 Systems, Lot of 5 in eBay Message-ID: Item number:140420111955 If someone in Europe would be interested I should like to arrange it to get one. Of course the price is high but It allows to make an offer. Sergio 2010/6/15 Jim Stephens > Does anyone have some Prodos and or other software for one of these? My > supply is locked up, and I don't know if I ever had Prodos. > > The system I'm getting had its prodos floppy stepped on by a misque long > ago, and it was overwritten, so at a minimum I would appreciate that. > > I could send the damaged disk and let you overwrite at my expense as an > alternative if media is a problem, or I can dig for some blanks in my pile. > > thanks > Jim > From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Thu Jun 24 15:51:05 2010 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 22:51:05 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa Message-ID: <4C23C539.3000901@gsi.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > > "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: > > I've also implemented a PDP-11 on an FPGA. It is a full 11/70 with > > split I&D, MMU and cache. No FPP so far. Available peripherals are so > > far DL11, LP11, KW11L, PC11, and RK11. All I/O is channeled over via > > 'remote-register-interface' onto a single bi-directional byte stream > > interface, so the FPGA board needs a backend PC with a server program > > to handle the I/O requests. > Any plans on the FPP? It would be really nice and useful to have. Hi Johnny, sure, an FPP is on the 'todo-list', but it doesn't have the highest priority. After having put the first version on OpenCores I'd like to add a trace/debug unit (allowing hardware breakpoints ect), and add a few more peripherals, especially larger disks. Currently I have only an RK11 controller, good enough for proof-of-principle, but not enough for real usage. > As for traps and double errors, feel free to ask. I don't know if I have > all the answers, but I might be able to figure them out. Besides, I also > have access to one (or three) functional 11/70 machines. I've tested much of the implementation against simh and xxdp's, but there are still a few loose ends regarding corner cases. It be great to run a few test programs on simh, a real 11/70, and my fpga implementation, called now w11a. > The 11/53 is a really slow machine. Not that helpful to compare with. But you > seem to push a nice number anyway. But 50MHz... The J11 in an 11/9x machine > runs at 20 MHz, which would suggest that you should only be able to push about > 2.5 times the performance, unless you do some more clever tricks. > (The 11/9x machine runs all memory as cache.) I know, but the 11/53 is the only pdp-11 where I know the Unix Benchmark and thus the Dhrystone results, so it became the reference. Even though my implementation is quite different from the organization of the original 11/70, it has essentially the same instruction timing as a 11/45 or 11/70 when expressed in clock cycles. The 11/45 or 11/70 CPU's ran with a 150 ns clock period (ignoring clock stretching here), thus a 6.7 MHz clock. A register-register operation takes 2 cycles, a "mov r0,(r1)+" for example 5 cycles. Because the cpi (cycles-per-instruction) for 11/70 and the w11a is very similar and both have a good cache the w11a should simply be 50/6.7 or a factor 7.5 faster than a 11/70. The 11/70 and the w11a have some pipelining, instruction fetch and decode/operate can overlap for register destination instructions. The J11 is more pipelined, here fetch, decode, and operate stage can overlap. Therefore register-register instructions take 1 cycle in the best case, a "mov r0,(r1)+" for example 3 cycles. Therefore a 50 MHz w11a will not be 2.5 times faster than a 20 MHz J11, maybe just 1.5 times faster. The w11a is intentionally implemented in a quite simple and conservative way, prime goal was to get it right and working, and not to get it fast. At some later time maybe I'll try a really fast design, with separate instruction and data caches and significantly more parallelism than the J11 had. > IIST is needed for RSX to be happy (the only OS that supports the 11/74), > and you also need to implement parts of the memory bus behaviour with > interlocking. You can ignore the MK11 box CSRs, even though it will look > a little funny, but you do need separate DL11s for each CPU core, along with > the rest of the I/O bus, or else things will probably not work. The 11/74 > is a shared memory machine, but not shared I/O bus. I'm fully aware of this, the MP version will have one I/O bus per CPU and a shared memory and asrb interlock, and caches with proper cache coherency. It's true that RSX is the only OS that supports an 11/74. Unfortunately I don't have an RSX11-M plus license. So the plan is to patch 2.11BSD to support an MP system. Sounds like a long shot, but looking into the kernel sources I concluded that a funneling or 'big kernel lock' type MP support seems to be quite feasible. Will not scale well, but for a 'dual-core' this is likely good enough. Walter From jtornes at wolfec.com Thu Jun 24 16:06:19 2010 From: jtornes at wolfec.com (James Tornes) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 14:06:19 -0700 Subject: FF: Compaq SLT/286 and Acorn manuals (Cambridge, UK) Message-ID: <000501cb13e1$188a0960$499e1c20$@com> Jules, A while ago you posted that you had the manual and discs for a Compaq SLT/286. Do you by chance still have them? If so does it include the Supplemental Programs disc? Thanks James From ats at offog.org Thu Jun 24 16:32:25 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 22:32:25 +0100 Subject: Apple 2e In-Reply-To: (Liam Proven's message of "Thu, 24 Jun 2010 20:15:54 +0100") References: <4C17EB85.5010106@jwsss.com> <4C1C971E.6000108@jwsss.com> <4C1F0B26.7060304@gmail.com> Message-ID: Liam Proven writes: > Blimey. Wish *I* did over here. Same here. I've only ever seen one Apple II in the wild in the UK (at a school, around 1990). Perhaps we should set up some kind of transatlantic exchange scheme... -- Adam Sampson From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 24 17:29:18 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 15:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 2e In-Reply-To: <38E973F220C34A528C01A87462D5C16B@dell8300> from Teo Zenios at "Jun 24, 10 04:45:26 pm" Message-ID: <201006242229.o5OMTIUg011686@floodgap.com> > Many school systems in the US dumped whatever IIgs stock they had left a few > years back (at that time you could not give them away). You can still find > them here but now you have to pay a little (or a lot depending on add-ons). Yeah, I got several that way and was able to assemble them into a working system. Now my IIgs has a Transwarp, RAM expansion and AE HD. It's a very nice system. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. -------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 24 18:19:44 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:19:44 -0400 Subject: Apple 2e References: <201006242229.o5OMTIUg011686@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3339D7B9CDB24E319E237C2F3C2B1F5B@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 6:29 PM Subject: Re: Apple 2e >> Many school systems in the US dumped whatever IIgs stock they had left a >> few >> years back (at that time you could not give them away). You can still >> find >> them here but now you have to pay a little (or a lot depending on >> add-ons). > > Yeah, I got several that way and was able to assemble them into a working > system. Now my IIgs has a Transwarp, RAM expansion and AE HD. It's a very > nice system. > They are ok. I have ROM 3 with Transwarp, Apple SCSI card, and an 8MB RAM card in one of mine. The most expensive part was the SCSI card that I paid $50 shipped for a few years back. The rest I found in systems I snagged for a few bucks, or as the case for the RAM card for free because I was told it was dead (just needed corrosion on one of the board fingers cleaned). I would think that setup would run in the hundreds on ebay. While GS/OS is ok to play with, even with the Transwarp and all that RAM (some of which is setup as a RAM disk) it doesn't feel that fast to me. Still playing the IIgs version of Arkanoid is fun, and being able to network directly with a mac to transfer files makes GS/OS useful. As far as shipping them to the UK, it might have been worth it before USPS got rid of surface mail. Now that everything is airmail only it would be very expensive to ship a whole system overseas, maybe not that bad for the system case only. From menadeau at comcast.net Thu Jun 24 19:01:41 2010 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 20:01:41 -0400 Subject: Canon BX-1 manual request References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net><20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org><2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com><4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C1F4702.6040502@mac.com><4C1FAE9D.5020409@neurotica.com> <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <3336FA7590534A9DA6A78A3C9F1BE7AA@Mike> If you can help Dirk, please respond directly to him. Dirk is in the Netherlands I own a Canon BX-1 and have been looking for manual for years. Can you help with a manual for that kind of machine. I can sell it for a reasonable price now but only with the manual. Thank you for your help. Kind regards, Dirk Amling dirkamling at gmail.com From jws at jwsss.com Thu Jun 24 21:27:40 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 19:27:40 -0700 Subject: Digital DEC PDP 11/84 Systems, Lot of 5 in eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C24141C.2090900@jwsss.com> Looks like a 5ESS ate it, from the other material for sale in this lot. It is on the wrong side of the US for me to help, I'm in LA, the systems are in Boston. Maybe someone there might stage and ship the partials. (Bill D?) Maybe you replied to my email and meant to hit another, but I'd help if I could. Good luck, Sergio. Also email the guy the listing said if this listing falls thru, they may break up the 5 units and sell one. Jim On 6/24/2010 2:16 PM, SPC wrote: > Item number:140420111955 > > If someone in Europe would be interested I should like to arrange it to get > one. Of course the price is high but It allows to make an offer. > > Sergio > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 25 01:55:52 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 23:55:52 -0700 Subject: Digital DEC PDP 11/84 Systems, Lot of 5 in eBay References: <4C24141C.2090900@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4C2452F7.B2BF3FFE@cs.ubc.ca> jim s wrote: > > Looks like a 5ESS ate it, from the other material for sale in this lot. Knowing nothong about the 5ESS, other than recognising it as the name of a telephone switch, I looked it up. I found mention of 3B20 processors used in the 5ESS, but not of the 11/84. Where does the 84 fit, just out of curiousity (or were you just commenting on the other material and not meaning to imply any connection between the 84's and 5ESS)? From spedraja at ono.com Fri Jun 25 02:07:03 2010 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 09:07:03 +0200 Subject: Digital DEC PDP 11/84 Systems, Lot of 5 in eBay In-Reply-To: <4C24141C.2090900@jwsss.com> References: <4C24141C.2090900@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Yes, It was a reply used to send one new message. Sorry :-) And, by the way, thanks, Jim. Sergio 2010/6/25 jim s > Looks like a 5ESS ate it, from the other material for sale in this lot. > > It is on the wrong side of the US for me to help, I'm in LA, the systems > are in Boston. Maybe someone there might stage and ship the partials. > (Bill D?) > > Maybe you replied to my email and meant to hit another, but I'd help if I > could. Good luck, Sergio. > > Also email the guy the listing said if this listing falls thru, they may > break up the 5 units and sell one. > Jim > > > On 6/24/2010 2:16 PM, SPC wrote: > >> Item number:140420111955 >> >> If someone in Europe would be interested I should like to arrange it to >> get >> one. Of course the price is high but It allows to make an offer. >> >> Sergio >> >> > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 24 23:37:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 00:37:01 -0400 Subject: SMT soldering questions In-Reply-To: <4C238C6E.40408@verizon.net> References: <4C238C6E.40408@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C24326D.3040901@neurotica.com> On 6/24/10 12:48 PM, Keith M wrote: > I've got a Xytronic 137ESD > (http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/137ESD.html). > > Which of these tips, keeping in mind I have the 137ESD, would be > appropriate for surface mount work? > > http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/tips.html Generally, I'd go with as fine a tip as you can, though there are other SMT techniques (see "dragging") that would require a wider tip. The third tip down on that page looks like a good place to start, or perhaps the second. > What temperature should I be set at for soldering? The number 630F > comes to mind, but I'm not sure. That's about right. There are a number of things to be aware of here, but they're roughly the same things that apply to through-hole soldering. First, lots of people assume that they should err on the side of lower heat to avoid component damage. But if you think about it, if you use lower heat you'll typically need to hold the iron on the joint for a longer time. You want to use a nice hot iron to get the joints done in as short a time as is practical. Don't obsess over it, but just get the joint nicely flowed and remove the heat. The composition of your solder and flux are also factors to consider. As a data point, I'm currently using a Metcal SP-200 iron with an SSC-645A tip, 600F/0.4mm tip diameter. > What type of solder? I think I'm using 63/37, I think .015 OD. 63/37 is good. I use 0.010" solder...I don't think I've ever tried 0.015", but I think you should be fine. > Should I use flux? In what form? A pen? A syringe? A brush? This is largely a matter of preference, and my preference is a flux pen. They work very well, don't spill, give you a controlled flow of liquid to avoid messes, and are generally convenient to use. The last time I tried a flux syringe I ended up making a big mess. With the pen, just dab-dab-dab along one side of an SMT IC, and you're ready to roll. > Any other standard accessories that might help? Get a ring-light magnifier on an articulated arm. These can be had for <$40 brand new via eBay. You will need tweezers...I am particularly fond of Erem AASA and 5SA-EROP tweezers, available from Mouser for about $7 or so. Protect the tips. You will also need some fine solder wick. Another important thing to remember: Remember how sensitive through-hole soldering is to finger print grease? SMT soldering is even more so. I always wash my hands with soap before soldering, and I try to minimize touching solder pads. Like the matter of component heating, don't obsess over it, hold where you need to hold, but if you can avoid touching a pad at a particular moment, do so. If you need to stop and clean the board, a Q-tip dipped in alcohol works well, just watch for fiber turds. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jun 25 02:56:08 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 00:56:08 -0700 Subject: Digital DEC PDP 11/84 Systems, Lot of 5 in eBay In-Reply-To: <4C2452F7.B2BF3FFE@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C24141C.2090900@jwsss.com> <4C2452F7.B2BF3FFE@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C246118.9040100@jwsss.com> I had heard of some of the ESS systems that used the PDP's, and not the 3B's. The seller appears to have really old CO equipment that has broken down, and the bits may not be related. Much more interesting than a bunch of TIE switches, or such, but only just. Jim On 6/24/2010 11:55 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > jim s wrote: > >> Looks like a 5ESS ate it, from the other material for sale in this lot. >> > Knowing nothong about the 5ESS, other than recognising it as the name of a > telephone switch, I looked it up. > I found mention of 3B20 processors used in the 5ESS, but not of the 11/84. > Where does the 84 fit, just out of curiousity (or were you just commenting on > the other material and not meaning to imply any connection between the 84's and 5ESS)? > > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 08:20:17 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:20:17 +0100 Subject: RISC OS on Beagleboard Message-ID: Bit of blatant self-promotion here but this might amuse or entertain or something... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/25/riscos_beagleboard/ (By yours truly.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 08:41:09 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:41:09 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Twitter_on_a_ZX_Spectrum_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4C1FB3EC.2060209@sbcglobal.net> References: <4C1FB3EC.2060209@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 21 June 2010 19:48, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/06/21/vintage_computer_fair/ Indeed yes, and it rocked. http://twitter.com/lproven/status/16617770656 I am a tad vexed my colleague Andrew got to this story before me... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 08:51:30 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:51:30 +0100 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 23 June 2010 19:32, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/23/10 2:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>>> The machine came without a keyboard or mouse and I think I need at >>>>>> least a keyboard to get it to boot. >>>>> If no keyboard is connected the machine defaults to serial console on >>>>> the first serial port. (IIRC this is the DB25 one.) 9600 8n1. Before >>>>> investing money in a keyboard and mouse you should check if the machine >>>>> lives at all via the serial console. >>>> >>>> ?Ultra5s (and Ultra10s) are worth less than keyboards. ;) ?The worst >>>> system Sun has ever produced, by a significant margin, IMO. >>> >>> They are not that bad once you add a SCSI card to the U5, a better video >>> card would help as well. More of a cheap PC design with a sparc CPU. >> >> ? Yes. ?Which is why I say they suck. :) ?Compare the build quality to >> something like an Ulra2 or an Ultra60! > > ?I should amend this by stating that I don't wish to dissuade anyone > from playing with them, just don't let it color your opinion of Sun > systems in general if this will be your first. ?The Ultra5/Ultra10 > really are PCs with SPARC processors grafted in...Slow, flimsy, terrible > construction, not nice at all. ?Fun to play with, but not > production-quality systems. ?Just my (professional) opinion. Oh. Great. I just got given a minitower Ultra10 a week or 2 ago. Not yet tried to fire it up yet. Ah well. I will still have a play. Happen to know the latest version of Solaris it'll run? And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card, will any old random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special fabricated out of unobtainium? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 08:57:28 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 09:57:28 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/25/10, Liam Proven wrote: > And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card, will any old > random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special > fabricated out of unobtainium? USB on a Sun box I have no experience with, but ISTR there is some favored model of Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in - the unobtanium part *might* be that you'd have to find a SPARC boot ROM if you wanted to boot from an attached device. I have only ever booted from "internal" disks on that variety of hardware. If you do find one with a SPARC ROM on it, it should be a matter of stuffing it in a slot and powering on. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 25 09:11:35 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:11:35 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com><178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300><4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 9:57 AM Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard > On 6/25/10, Liam Proven wrote: >> And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card, will any old >> random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special >> fabricated out of unobtainium? > > USB on a Sun box I have no experience with, but ISTR there is some > favored model of Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in - the > unobtanium part *might* be that you'd have to find a SPARC boot ROM if > you wanted to boot from an attached device. I have only ever booted > from "internal" disks on that variety of hardware. > > If you do find one with a SPARC ROM on it, it should be a matter of > stuffing it in a slot and powering on. > > -ethan There were plenty of cheap Symbios 22801 or 22802 (one is HVD and the other is SE/LVD) last year when I needed one for my U5 on ebay. I boot from a 18GB UW 10K driver off of it using Solaris 8. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 09:12:33 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 07:12:33 -0700 Subject: A simple system debugger board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi I've been thinking for some time about something simple to help fix old machines. For the most part, the ROMs can be scanned and the RAMs swap as well as the CPU but the failure in things like the various address decoders and such often require specific code to make it easy to check. I've been thinking that one way to deal with this is two write small test loops for testing specific parts and then blowing these in EPROMs. This works well and I've used this method in the past but usually it requires specific knowledge ( schematic and/or manuals ) about that specific machine. What I've been thinking of is a simpler idea that requires less knowledge about the machine. One just needs a little knowledge about the processor. The idea is to make a simple socket header to go between the processor and the rest of the machine. All it would have is some simple circuit to determine read or write from the processor. It would have data buffers such that it would write through from the processor to the machine. On reads, it would intecept the data and replace it with an instructiion provided by some dip switches. It would not effect addresses, just let the processor free run. One could then easily probe a lot of circuits with just a logic probe. I'm not sure which single instruction would be best but for a 8080, a push or pop are quite useful. The entire circuit would just be a little glue logic and a few bus buffers. Any other thoughts? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jun 25 09:30:49 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 10:30:49 -0400 Subject: Digital DEC PDP 11/84 Systems, Lot of 5 in eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> 140420130808 > Looks like a 5ESS ate it, from the other material for sale in this lot. They all seem to have Dilog CU160's. What was the CU160? Disk, communications? My bet is the seller was once one of the Boston-area DEC used equipment dealer of the 70's/80's, who is now into Telecom instead. Let's see, in the late 80's: American Used Computer was already pass? (wasn't he in Boston?). ELI was big. Who else was there? I used to know all the names by heart. There were several who weren't as big as ELI but still worthwhile. Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 10:35:08 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:35:08 -0400 Subject: A simple system debugger board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 6/25/10, dwight elvey wrote: > What I've been thinking of is a simpler idea... > a simple socket header to go between the processor and > the rest of the machine... On reads, > it would intecept the data and replace it with an instructiion > provided by some dip switches. > It would not effect addresses, just let the processor free run. > > ...I'm not sure which single instruction would be best but > for a 8080, a push or pop are quite useful. There was a common debug tool back in the PET era - a 6502 CPU with the data bus pins bent backwards and wired up such that no matter what might have been fetched from ROM or RAM (or I/O locations), the CPU gated in $EA, the NOP instruction. The effect would be to have the CPU see $EAEA as the ROM start vector, and any NMI interrupts that might be invoked would also send the processor to $EAEA. After that, the address bus just increments at the machine's clock speed, so it's easy to scan for stuck address bits and memory bank selects (since most of the machines of that era had a 74154 or 74138s or similar parts to generate select signals for RAM and ROM and I/O chips). At least for the case of the 6502, it's pretty cheap to sacrifice one CPU to be able to test a variety of machines. Less common chips might warrant a board and dip switches, as you suggest. Given how 8-bit machines function, "random" forced data bus values might have to be limited to single-byte instructions, or at least a _very_ limited range of two byte instructions (for the 6502, $A9 being one, because two of them in a row is LDA #$A9, but there are a few others that would probably be safe). Nothing comes to mind that's "better" than NOP, though. In part, what you are describing reminds me of Nicholas Welte's ROM/RAM board, but with the ability to force a known byte onto the data bus. His board contains an arbitrary amount of ROM and up to 32K of RAM and an address/personality GAL controlled by a bank of DIP switches that allows you to a) customize the appearance of ROM and RAM for different system memory maps (PETs vs disk drives etc) and b) customize the quantity or content of ROM and/or RAM for a specific machine (disk with or without JiffyDOS or a PET with selectable ROM Kernel versions, etc). Made slightly more generic, buffering and isolating the CPU from the target socket would only add a handful of chips (74LS125s or something like them) - you could also then rig the address map to favor RAM on the test board vs the target board or ROM or whatever, to isolate subsections that might be causing problems. In principle, this sounds interesting, but in practice, I think it'd be much like designing one Z-80 SBC then one 8080 SBC then one 6502 SBC, etc, since there is so much variance between the different 8-bit hardware architectures. Which one you would start with would probably be a function of what chips you know best or what you have the tallest pile of on the workbench. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 25 10:36:27 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:36:27 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C24CCFB.9070807@neurotica.com> On 6/25/10 9:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/25/10, Liam Proven wrote: >> And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card, will any old >> random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special >> fabricated out of unobtainium? > > USB on a Sun box I have no experience with, but ISTR there is some > favored model of Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in - the > unobtanium part *might* be that you'd have to find a SPARC boot ROM if > you wanted to boot from an attached device. I have only ever booted > from "internal" disks on that variety of hardware. > > If you do find one with a SPARC ROM on it, it should be a matter of > stuffing it in a slot and powering on. Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are platform-independent. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 10:40:53 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:40:53 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4C24CCFB.9070807@neurotica.com> References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> <4C24CCFB.9070807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/25/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/25/10 9:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in... >> *might*... have to find a SPARC boot ROM... > > Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are > platform-independent. Oh? So an Adaptec card with an OpenBoot ROM would work in either, say, a SPARC machine or a PCI-equipped Apple (like one of the G3 machines)? Is it really that "independent"? If so, that'd be cool. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 25 10:45:13 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:45:13 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> <4C24CCFB.9070807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C24CF09.9060103@neurotica.com> On 6/25/10 11:40 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> ... Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in... >>> *might*... have to find a SPARC boot ROM... >> >> Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are >> platform-independent. > > Oh? So an Adaptec card with an OpenBoot ROM would work in either, > say, a SPARC machine or a PCI-equipped Apple (like one of the G3 > machines)? Is it really that "independent"? If so, that'd be cool. That's the idea, yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 25 10:50:31 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:50:31 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C24D047.8060800@neurotica.com> On 6/25/10 9:51 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I just got given a minitower Ultra10 a week or 2 ago. Not yet tried to > fire it up yet. > > Ah well. I will still have a play. Happen to know the latest version > of Solaris it'll run? It will run the current release of Solaris. > And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card, will any old > random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special > fabricated out of unobtainium? If you're going to run Solaris, you'll need a Solaris-supported card. Many are supported, though. There's a list here: http://www.sun.com/io_technologies/iocontrolers/IOControlers23.html For SCSI, most LSI chipsets work under Solaris 10. In case you want SATA, the Silicon Image PB3512 is specifically supported, though many others are reported to work. Most SIIG-chipset FireWire cards also work. If you're going to run something like NetBSD or Linux, pretty much anything will work, except of course for booting. Odd that they spelled it "controlers" in that URL; they probably farmed their content generation out to India. Joy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Jun 25 10:51:15 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 11:51:15 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> <4C24CCFB.9070807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <28E43650-109C-4D2A-B83B-097411A16DBE@colourfull.com> On Jun 25, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 6/25/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 6/25/10 9:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> ... Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in... >>> *might*... have to find a SPARC boot ROM... >> >> Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are >> platform-independent. > > Oh? So an Adaptec card with an OpenBoot ROM would work in either, > say, a SPARC machine or a PCI-equipped Apple (like one of the G3 > machines)? Is it really that "independent"? If so, that'd be cool. > > -ethan Well , kind of. The OpenBoot rom contains a set of openfirmware codes (methods) that allow a driver a more universal way to access the card. I use to design video cards for the early powermacs so I've written a bunch of F-Code. You still needed a driver on top of the openfirmware rom. Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jun 25 11:31:46 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 17:31:46 +0100 Subject: A simple system debugger board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C24D9F2.1020603@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/06/2010 15:12, dwight elvey wrote: > I've been thinking for some time about something simple > to help fix old machines. > What I've been thinking of is a simpler idea that requires > less knowledge about the machine. One just needs a > little knowledge about the processor. The idea is to make > a simple socket header to go between the processor and > the rest of the machine. All it would have is some simple > circuit to determine read or write from the processor. > It would have data buffers such that it would write > through from the processor to the machine. On reads, > it would intecept the data and replace it with an instructiion > provided by some dip switches. > I'm not sure which single instruction would be best but > for a 8080, a push or pop are quite useful. The entire > circuit would just be a little glue logic and a few bus > buffers. That's what we used to do for 6502s and Z80s. For a 6502, a NOP is most useful ($EA) but a BRK is handy too and conveniently is $00. For a Z80 or 8080 etc, 0x00 is a NOP and 0xFF is RST 7, which is also useful. NOP is handy because you can see the address bus just counting up in binary. We didn't even bother with buffers for a Z80. Just leave the data bus pins open :-) For specific machines, I have a little 28-pin carrier with an EPROM socket and a BCD rotary switch to set the base address. Replace the OS or BIOS ROM with simple test routines -- for example, a basic one for a BBC Micro (an Apple or PET would be very similar and even simpler) has a short loop that does a read of each I/O device in turn. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 25 11:34:33 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 12:34:33 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <28E43650-109C-4D2A-B83B-097411A16DBE@colourfull.com> References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> <4C24CCFB.9070807@neurotica.com> <28E43650-109C-4D2A-B83B-097411A16DBE@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4C24DA99.3010302@neurotica.com> On 6/25/10 11:51 AM, Robert Borsuk wrote: >>>> ... Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in... >>>> *might*... have to find a SPARC boot ROM... >>> >>> Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are >>> platform-independent. >> >> Oh? So an Adaptec card with an OpenBoot ROM would work in either, >> say, a SPARC machine or a PCI-equipped Apple (like one of the G3 >> machines)? Is it really that "independent"? If so, that'd be cool. > > Well , kind of. The OpenBoot rom contains a set of openfirmware codes (methods) that allow a driver a more universal way to access the card. > I use to design video cards for the early powermacs so I've written a bunch of F-Code. You still needed a driver on top of the openfirmware rom. Yes, I should've mentioned that this is in the context of OpenFirmware. Nearly all of the machines I ever touch use OpenFirmware (Mac destkops, Sun servers) so machine without it are pretty unusual in my world. It's really amazingly good stuff. And it made Forth one of the most widely-deployed (but largely invisible) programming language implementations ever. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doc at vaxen.net Fri Jun 25 12:33:30 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 12:33:30 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4C24CCFB.9070807@neurotica.com> References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> <4C24CCFB.9070807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C24E86A.6010400@vaxen.net> On 6/25/10 10:36 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are > platform-independent. Ah, no. The OpenFirmware standard is platform independent. OpenBoot is Sun's implementation of that standard. There are quite a few platforms that use OpenFirmware, including SPARC, several generations of Apple Macs, and most of the IBM POWER systems. Adapters firmwared for one platform will often function on the others, but rarely boot. In fact, I can't think of any that will, outside of ethernet adapters. Doc From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 12:47:44 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:47:44 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> And if I wanted to add a SCSI card and/or USB card, will any old >> random PC PCI one just work, or do I need something exotic and special >> fabricated out of unobtainium? > > USB on a Sun box I have no experience with, but ISTR there is some > favored model of Adaptec PCI SCSI card that should just drop in - the > unobtanium part *might* be that you'd have to find a SPARC boot ROM if > you wanted to boot from an attached device. I have only ever booted > from "internal" disks on that variety of hardware. > > If you do find one with a SPARC ROM on it, it should be a matter of > stuffing it in a slot and powering on. Pretty much any Symbios 22801 or compatible should work out of the box. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 25 13:57:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 14:57:37 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4C24E86A.6010400@vaxen.net> References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> <4C24CCFB.9070807@neurotica.com> <4C24E86A.6010400@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4C24FC21.3010000@neurotica.com> On 6/25/10 1:33 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Not a "SPARC ROM", but a standard OpenBoot ROM. They are >> platform-independent. > > Ah, no. The OpenFirmware standard is platform independent. OpenBoot > is Sun's implementation of that standard. Oh yes, brain-o. Thanks for the correction. > There are quite a few > platforms that use OpenFirmware, including SPARC, several generations of > Apple Macs, and most of the IBM POWER systems. Adapters firmwared for > one platform will often function on the others, but rarely boot. In > fact, I can't think of any that will, outside of ethernet adapters. I've removed (bootable) SCSI cards from Macs and stuck them in Suns many times, and they've been bootable. The Fcode boot structures are very consistent from what I've seen. (I've looked) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jun 25 19:46:12 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:46:12 -0300 Subject: partial P112 kits References: <1D565417-4480-4C60-BEFD-6B7D9195A400@feedle.net> <4C1FD058.90304@verizon.net><4C1FD20E.2090509@neurotica.com><5AADAA63-B4F8-45BE-B0CC-27D9AEE1D0F7@feedle.net><4C1FDAAC.8070202@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <012b01cb14c9$11dba360$063875bb@portajara> > I have no problem with that at all. If they DON'T WANT to, that's > fine. What I have a problem with is the knee-jerk reaction of "SMT == > HARD", which is complete and utter bullshit. I do agree with Dave. I just gave a "smd workshop" last saturday and 10 guys who paid to have a tsop IC soldered learned how EASY it is to do with cheap tools. >Not everybody has access to a teacher as patient and as learned as you. >For most of us, we've only had to learn by trying it and In the age of the 'net and youtube, this is not an excuse. You have HD videos showing the techinics all around, and there is always the cclist for asking around. I'm here to help you, and I'm not dr. Sbaitso :) >There exists down the electronics kits aisle of Fry's Electronics all >manner of doodads designed to make SMT skills easier to uptake >and use. If >it was so easy, there'd be no need for such products. America is the land of "I'll take your hand for $9,99". There exists, but doesn't mean it is usable or needed. >It's great you found it easy, and have the skills to teach others. Don't >call "bullshit" just because you've found it isn't hard. Others >have >found it hard, and you can't discount their experiences. You can, however, >figure out how to market the fact you've found it >easy, and I'd bet the electronics hobbyists and amateur radio operators of >the world would thank you financially for your help.= He is so nice, he is giving away to you his help :) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jun 26 02:08:22 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 09:08:22 +0200 Subject: Slightly OT: Sun Ultra 5 Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com> References: <20100623091737.7f0c7021.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4C224DE8.7000109@neurotica.com> <178A8B709B8744A98D44F39912045EF0@dell8300> <4C225181.2090002@neurotica.com> <4C22533F.1040902@neurotica.com> <4C24EBC0.5070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100626090822.68828a85.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 13:47:44 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Pretty much any Symbios 22801 or compatible should work out of the box. So do the older NCR / Symbios 53C8* starting with the 53C810. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From bqt at softjar.se Fri Jun 25 17:02:38 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 15:02:38 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C25277E.1010409@softjar.se> Hi, Walter. "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: > > > I've also implemented a PDP-11 on an FPGA. It is a full 11/70 with > > > split I&D, MMU and cache. No FPP so far. Available peripherals are so > > > far DL11, LP11, KW11L, PC11, and RK11. All I/O is channeled over via > > > 'remote-register-interface' onto a single bi-directional byte stream > > > interface, so the FPGA board needs a backend PC with a server program > > > to handle the I/O requests. > > > Any plans on the FPP? It would be really nice and useful to have. > > Hi Johnny, > > sure, an FPP is on the 'todo-list', but it doesn't have the highest > priority. After having put the first version on OpenCores I'd like to > add a trace/debug unit (allowing hardware breakpoints ect), and add > a few more peripherals, especially larger disks. Currently I have > only an RK11 controller, good enough for proof-of-principle, but > not enough for real usage. Disks are definitely a good thing. And as usual, I'll advocate MSCP. Even though it's not the simplest, it's simply just the best. :-) But FPP is among the most important things in there as well, I'd say. Lots of software who won't be happy without it. > > As for traps and double errors, feel free to ask. I don't know if I have > > all the answers, but I might be able to figure them out. Besides, I also > > have access to one (or three) functional 11/70 machines. > > I've tested much of the implementation against simh and xxdp's, but there > are still a few loose ends regarding corner cases. It be great to run a > few test programs on simh, a real 11/70, and my fpga implementation, > called now w11a. Feel free to talk with me more offlist, and we can see when we can schedule some testing on real hardware. > > The 11/53 is a really slow machine. Not that helpful to compare with. But you > > seem to push a nice number anyway. But 50MHz... The J11 in an 11/9x machine > > runs at 20 MHz, which would suggest that you should only be able to push about > > 2.5 times the performance, unless you do some more clever tricks. > > (The 11/9x machine runs all memory as cache.) > > I know, but the 11/53 is the only pdp-11 where I know the Unix Benchmark > and thus the Dhrystone results, so it became the reference. > > Even though my implementation is quite different from the organization of > the original 11/70, it has essentially the same instruction timing as a > 11/45 or 11/70 when expressed in clock cycles. The 11/45 or 11/70 CPU's > ran with a 150 ns clock period (ignoring clock stretching here), thus a > 6.7 MHz clock. A register-register operation takes 2 cycles, a > "mov r0,(r1)+" for example 5 cycles. > > Because the cpi (cycles-per-instruction) for 11/70 and the w11a is very > similar and both have a good cache the w11a should simply be 50/6.7 or a > factor 7.5 faster than a 11/70. > > The 11/70 and the w11a have some pipelining, instruction fetch and > decode/operate can overlap for register destination instructions. The > J11 is more pipelined, here fetch, decode, and operate stage can overlap. > Therefore register-register instructions take 1 cycle in the best case, > a "mov r0,(r1)+" for example 3 cycles. > > Therefore a 50 MHz w11a will not be 2.5 times faster than a 20 MHz J11, > maybe just 1.5 times faster. The w11a is intentionally implemented in a > quite simple and conservative way, prime goal was to get it right and > working, and not to get it fast. Good thinking. But I'm surprised by some numbers here. The J11 at 20 MHz is only slightly faster than an 11/70. In fact, if you can throw the 11/70 into running all from cache, it might even be slightly faster than an 11/9x. Or so I seem to remember from looking at the numbers back when I last was digging into this. Maybe I'm mixing some numbers up here... What I do remember for sure is that the 11/9x machines run at 20 MHz, and that they are not more than maybe 1.2 times the speed of an 11/70 in general. > At some later time maybe I'll try a really fast design, with separate > instruction and data caches and significantly more parallelism than > the J11 had. Hmm. I wonder if that might cause headaches? There might be code out there that require your i-cache and d-cache to be consistent with each other. > > IIST is needed for RSX to be happy (the only OS that supports the 11/74), > > and you also need to implement parts of the memory bus behaviour with > > interlocking. You can ignore the MK11 box CSRs, even though it will look > > a little funny, but you do need separate DL11s for each CPU core, along with > > the rest of the I/O bus, or else things will probably not work. The 11/74 > > is a shared memory machine, but not shared I/O bus. > > I'm fully aware of this, the MP version will have one I/O bus per CPU and > a shared memory and asrb interlock, and caches with proper cache coherency. Yes. But what I was thinking of was the fact that at a level below this, you have the CPU that be issuing read-modify-write cycles to memory, and those needs to be interlocked to memory. At a higher level, the 11/70 was modified for asrb to always bypass cache, and then you had two other ways to bypass cache as well. But bypassing cache is only half the problem, as you also need to make sure some memory operations are atomic, as seen from other cpus. But if you know a thing or two about cpu and memory design (which it would appear you do), then you probably understand the problem already. By the way. You don't have to worry about cache coherency. The PDP-11/74 do not do that. Cache coherency is managed by software on the PDP-11 (well, in RSX, since that's the only system that supports the hardware). In short, the real hardware do not implement any sort of cache coherency in hardware. > It's true that RSX is the only OS that supports an 11/74. Unfortunately I > don't have an RSX11-M plus license. So the plan is to patch 2.11BSD to support > an MP system. Sounds like a long shot, but looking into the kernel sources > I concluded that a funneling or 'big kernel lock' type MP support seems to > be quite feasible. Will not scale well, but for a 'dual-core' this is likely > good enough. It's definitely doable. However, it is not that simple. The reason why DEC choose RSX as the OS for implementing multi-processor support is that it does not, in general, use interrupt priority levels to serialize access to data, protect sections of code, or implement locks. Unix do. So, in short, everywhere where the interrupt priority is changed, you potentially need to change the code, since another processor might still get interrupts at that level, and do things you thought you had locked out. But I see your problem. It would be great if we could solve the situation with RSX at some point... Johnny From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 26 09:48:17 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:48:17 +0200 Subject: Olivier de Smet makes a very nice HP85 in fpga Message-ID: <89C64766956E43DFB26282E524DABA7D@xp1800> http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hpseries80/fpga-hp85b Forwarding from HP80- series yahoo group : Hi, I just wanted to inform all of you that I started a new HP8x project : Recreate HP80 series computer in modern hardware :) Some news at the following url http://sites.google.com/site/olivier2smet2/hpseries80/fpga-hp85b P.S. the HP9121 emulation on SD card is near completion Olivier From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Sat Jun 26 15:24:14 2010 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:24:14 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa Message-ID: <4C2661EE.60005@gsi.de> RodSmallwood" wrote: > How difficult would it be to extend one of these FGPA PDP-11's to be put > on a quad DEC board and be a plug in replacement for say an 11/93 or > 11/94 CPU. (M8981-AA OR 11/91-BA)? > > Rod Hi Rod, possible and feasible, but requires three tasks to be addressed: 1. an adapter board is needed to connect the FPGA development boards (holding the FPGA and memory) to the UNIBUS or QBUS. Main active part of this adapter board are the bus transceiver for UNIBUS or QBUS. 2. The UNIBUS or QBUS bus interface logic can be added to the FPGA. Given that the system clock period is small compared to typical times of these buses it is quite simple and straight forward to implement such a bus interface. 3. the current w11a implementation doesn't support bus masters on the I/O bus. DMA transfers from disk/tape devices are currently emulated. Next versions of the FPGA implementation however will add this functionality. But keep in mind: the current FPGA implementation isn't tremendously faster than a J11. Walter From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Sat Jun 26 15:42:13 2010 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:42:13 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa Message-ID: <4C266625.5030201@gsi.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > I wasn't aware that any prototypes ever were produced and came as > far as being functional. I thought it was just paper work that > had bee done. The 11/74 wasn't marketed, as pointed out in this thread, but a few systems were build by DEC. A picture of such 11/74 system was made available by Tim Shoppa, see http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg You'll nicely see the four CPUs. arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > I've read somewhere that it [PDP-11/74] was full of flat ribbon > cables and would have been a beast to maintain. Well, you see on the picture that there was quite a bit of flat ribbon cables :). The 'PDP 11/70 Multiprocessor Technical Manual (Preliminary Version)' is on bitsavers, see http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf and gives you a feeling of the modules and interconnects. Walter From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Sat Jun 26 16:11:37 2010 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 23:11:37 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa Message-ID: <4C266D09.7030809@gsi.de> Johnny Billquist wrote > You do know that the J11 is already designed for mP usage, except that > DECs testing of that was even more secret than the 11/74? Sure, the mP instructions WRTLCK and the TSTSET of the J11 are documented, and allow cleaner way to implement spin locks than the 'asrb hack' of the 11/74. In a future version of the w11a I'll probably also implement the instructions supported by 11/34 and J11 and make the 'processor profile' selectable at start time, much like in the simh simulator. > But FPP is among the most important things in there as well, I'd say. > Lots of software who won't be happy without it. That's true from a performance point of view. However - you can run RSX and Fortran without FPP (did this 30 years ago when the FPP broke on the 11/45 I was working with...). - you can run 2.11BSD without FPP (I'm doing that each time I boot 2.11BSD). So a FPP is very good to have, but not my highest priority. Also, it's quite a project to design, implement and verify it, with the verification, as usual, being the most time consuming part. > By the way. You don't have to worry about cache coherency. The > PDP-11/74 do not do that. Cache coherency is managed by software > on the PDP-11 (well, in RSX, since that's the only system that > supports the hardware). In short, the real hardware do not implement > any sort of cache coherency in hardware. I know, but I'll go for a cache with full cache coherency. That will make it a lot easier to try a MP hack for 2.11BSD. And RSX, if I ever get to it, will not mind. Walter From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Sat Jun 26 17:48:56 2010 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:48:56 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa Message-ID: <4C2683D8.20305@gsi.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Good thinking. > But I'm surprised by some numbers here. The J11 at 20 MHz is > only slightly faster than an 11/70. In fact, if you can throw > the 11/70 into running all from cache, it might even be slightly > faster than an 11/9x. > Or so I seem to remember from looking at the numbers back when > I last was digging into this. > > Maybe I'm mixing some numbers up here... What I do remember for > sure is that the 11/9x machines run at 20 MHz, and that they are > not more than maybe 1.2 times the speed of an 11/70 in general. oops, you are right, I was mixing numbers here and forgot about a factor of four. Here the revised arguments: See http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/prfmnc.html , there is a table comparing 11/70 with various J11 systems: 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 11/93 ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- CPU F-11 J-11 J-11 J-11 J-11 Microcycle(ns) 300 267 267 222 222 Clock (MHz) ? 15 15 18 18 Performance 0.2 0.5 0.7 1.2 1.4 (11/70 = 1) Cache no no yes yes no Floating-Pt opt no no yes yes Coprocessor My mistake was to forget that the J11 needs 4 clock cycles per microcycle (MC), that's why 18 MHz clock leads to 222 ns MC period. In the end the J11 (222ns MC) is faster than the 11/70 (150 ns MC) because it has a better micro architecture (three stage pipeline vs. instruction prefetch only). The J11 is roughly a factor two better compared to 11/70 in terms of MC efficiency. The w11a on the other side does one microcycle per clock cycle. So one can expect that is roughly a factor 5.5 faster than a 18 MHz J11 (MC rate is 11 times higher (50/4.5), but J11 has a factor two better MC efficiency). Let's look at the Dhrystone benchmarks again: w11a 11500 lps 11/53 830 lps So the w11a is measured to be ~14 faster than a 11/53. The 11/53 has half the performance of a 11/70, so one expects that the w11a is about a factor 7 faster than a 11/70. Because w11a and 11/70 have a similar micro architecture that should match the MC rate, and indeed it does (50/6.7). So the numbers are consistent, finally. Thanks for pointing that out. Walter From roosmcd at dds.nl Sun Jun 27 03:01:05 2010 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (Michiel) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:01:05 +0200 Subject: FS. HP900/300 systems (Netherlands) Message-ID: <4C270541.4040304@dds.nl> Hello, Since I need to make some more space here, the following systems are for sale. Location is The Netherlands, I can ship internationally (probably expensive), delivery in the southern part of the UK in early August might also be possble. HP9000/300 double-height enclosure (IIRC this was a 317, I'll have to check). HP-HIl audio extension 46081A HP-HIL Mouse + keyboard HP 7958 hpib disk IEM HP-IB mass storage unit with 2 3.5" floppy drives HP-IB cables + documentation HP9000/310 with keyboard and mouse and also some other stuff for sale: Philips PC200 (rebadged grid XT laptop), power supply is broken but it will also work on DC IBM 43p/140: 332MHz processor, 256MB ram and 9GB disk with regards, Michiel From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jun 26 23:39:35 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 01:39:35 -0300 Subject: Olivier de Smet makes a very nice HP85 in fpga References: <89C64766956E43DFB26282E524DABA7D@xp1800> Message-ID: <009601cb1600$4dd13b40$47da4ac9@portajara> > P.S. the HP9121 emulation on SD card is near completion Imagine he doing that with a HPIB/GPIB port :) :) :) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jun 27 16:58:41 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:58:41 +0100 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module Message-ID: <4C27C991.30507@philpem.me.uk> (... sending this from the correct FROM address would help...) Hi guys, I've got a Laserjet III laser scanner module kicking around in my junkbox, harvested from an utterly screwed LJ3. It has a fibre-optic light pipe on one side, which connects to a photosensor on the motherboard. Does anyone know what the frequency or period of the photocell signal is? That is to say, how long does it take for the scanner to make one complete pass from "horizontal blank" to the right margin -- in other words, the time from the leading edge of one photocell pulse to the next? I'm toying with the idea of repurposing the scanner module for another project (using a BluRay laser diode to print directly onto photographic paper then process using a 3-bath B&W process), and I'd like to figure out (in advance!) what the requirements will be placed on the paper drive system (among other things!) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Sun Jun 27 21:53:09 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:53:09 -0500 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C27C991.30507@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C27C991.30507@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <0015B150-9736-4B5D-AA32-147A7CD97766@bellsouth.net> I would think that you could figure that out based on the resolution of the printer and how fast the paper comes out of the printer. On Jun 27, 2010, at 4:58 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > (... sending this from the correct FROM address would help...) > > Hi guys, > > I've got a Laserjet III laser scanner module kicking around in my junkbox, harvested from an utterly screwed LJ3. It has a fibre-optic light pipe on one side, which connects to a photosensor on the motherboard. Does anyone know what the frequency or period of the photocell signal is? > > That is to say, how long does it take for the scanner to make one complete pass from "horizontal blank" to the right margin -- in other words, the time from the leading edge of one photocell pulse to the next? > > I'm toying with the idea of repurposing the scanner module for another project (using a BluRay laser diode to print directly onto photographic paper then process using a 3-bath B&W process), and I'd like to figure out (in advance!) what the requirements will be placed on the paper drive system (among other things!) > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 18:37:09 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) Message-ID: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> everyone gather round. No hard woods, only wiffle ball bats :) anyone own/used to own 1? In the rare event someone has one or more toasted units, and willing to part with them, I'm interested. There's more then one way to skin a cat (PERISH THE THOUGHT!). From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Sun Jun 27 03:12:08 2010 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 10:12:08 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa Message-ID: <4C2707D8.60300@gsi.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: >>.. >> "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: >> At some later time maybe I'll try a really fast design, with separate >> instruction and data caches and significantly more parallelism than >> the J11 had. > Hmm. I wonder if that might cause headaches? There might be code out > there that require your i-cache and d-cache to be consistent with each > other. sure, there is self modifying code. The maindec zkdjb2 for example has a sequence like mov #000240,(pc) jmp (r1) and tests that the 'nop' was executed and not the 'jmp'. However, the cache, even separate i-d, is only one aspect, main point is to get all the different 'write-after-read' hazards in the pipeline under control. That's why I stayed with a simple 'prefetch-only' 11/70-like implementation in the first round. Even in that case one has to be careful and suppress for example the prefetch when the destination is pc. Otherwise a 'clr pc',often found at the end of primary bootstraps, will not do a 'jmp @#000000' but execute the opcode after the 'clr pc'. Walter From bqt at softjar.se Sun Jun 27 13:26:22 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 11:26:22 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2797CE.1050609@softjar.se> "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > I wasn't aware that any prototypes ever were produced and came as > > far as being functional. I thought it was just paper work that > > had bee done. > > The 11/74 wasn't marketed, as pointed out in this thread, but a > few systems were build by DEC. A picture of such 11/74 system > was made available by Tim Shoppa, see > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg > > You'll nicely see the four CPUs. Yes, I know of these systems. However, that is not an 11/74 on that picture, but an 11/70mP. There is a difference... As pointed out, the 11/70mP was marketed as an 11/74, but it's a different CPU. The easiest way to see that this is a picture of an 11/70mP is by looking at the lower rotary switch, which only have four positions, and not eight (which the 11/74 have). So no CIS on this machine. The only 11/74 picture I've seen so far is the silk screen panel picture posted a few days ago. Unfortunately I've already forgotten the name (I'm lousy with names, sorry) of the person who posted it, and who also worked on the 11/74 CIS microcode. The machine on that picture is probably CASTOR:: by the way. > arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > I've read somewhere that it [PDP-11/74] was full of flat ribbon > > cables and would have been a beast to maintain. > > Well, you see on the picture that there was quite a bit of > flat ribbon cables :). Yes, when you run multiple CPU configurations, you do get many flat cables. However, if you were to run the 11/74 in a single CPU configuration, it would not have had more flat cables than an 11/70. So it seems strange if that would have been the reason for cancelling it. On the other hand, I think that CIS never was popular, or in any demand, for the PDP-11, so if that (and multiprocess capability) was the only things the 11/74 brought to the table to differ it from tne 11/70, then I can understand why they would cancel it if they had problems with the multiprocessor part. > The 'PDP 11/70 Multiprocessor Technical Manual (Preliminary Version)' > is on bitsavers, see > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/EK-70MP-TM_PRE_1170mp_Prelim_Technical_Manual_1977.pdf > > and gives you a feeling of the modules and interconnects. Yes. And all evidence I ever see is that the only systems DEC actually did get working was the 11/70mP. That they actually got the 11/74 (CPU) beyond paperwork was what was news to me. > Johnny Billquist wrote > > You do know that the J11 is already designed for mP usage, except that > > DECs testing of that was even more secret than the 11/74? > > Sure, the mP instructions WRTLCK and the TSTSET of the J11 are > documented, and allow cleaner way to implement spin locks than > the 'asrb hack' of the 11/74. In a future version of the w11a I'll > probably also implement the instructions supported by 11/34 and > J11 and make the 'processor profile' selectable at start time, much > like in the simh simulator. That would be nice. While RSX don't use it, you could use it for Unix, or other systems. The J11 also have the cache bypass bit in the PDR, btw. What instructions are you thinking about when you say 11/34 btw? > > But FPP is among the most important things in there as well, I'd say. > > Lots of software who won't be happy without it. > > That's true from a performance point of view. However > - you can run RSX and Fortran without FPP (did this 30 years ago > when the FPP broke on the 11/45 I was working with...). True. But you cannot run almost anything else. I don't think I've seen any other language that do not require the FPP. > - you can run 2.11BSD without FPP (I'm doing that each time I > boot 2.11BSD). Yes, that was fixed recently, right? > So a FPP is very good to have, but not my highest priority. Also, > it's quite a project to design, implement and verify it, with the > verification, as usual, being the most time consuming part. True. > > By the way. You don't have to worry about cache coherency. The > > PDP-11/74 do not do that. Cache coherency is managed by software > > on the PDP-11 (well, in RSX, since that's the only system that > > supports the hardware). In short, the real hardware do not implement > > any sort of cache coherency in hardware. > > I know, but I'll go for a cache with full cache coherency. That will > make it a lot easier to try a MP hack for 2.11BSD. And RSX, if I ever > get to it, will not mind. True. Definitely will not break anything. But it will make your life more complicated. :-) > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Good thinking. > > But I'm surprised by some numbers here. The J11 at 20 MHz is > > only slightly faster than an 11/70. In fact, if you can throw > > the 11/70 into running all from cache, it might even be slightly > > faster than an 11/9x. > > Or so I seem to remember from looking at the numbers back when > > I last was digging into this. > > > > Maybe I'm mixing some numbers up here... What I do remember for > > sure is that the 11/9x machines run at 20 MHz, and that they are > > not more than maybe 1.2 times the speed of an 11/70 in general. > > oops, you are right, I was mixing numbers here and forgot about > a factor of four. Here the revised arguments: > > See http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/prfmnc.html , there > is a table comparing 11/70 with various J11 systems: > > 11/23 11/53 11/73 11/83 11/93 > ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- > CPU F-11 J-11 J-11 J-11 J-11 > Microcycle(ns) 300 267 267 222 222 > Clock (MHz) ? 15 15 18 18 > Performance 0.2 0.5 0.7 1.2 1.4 > (11/70 = 1) > Cache no no yes yes no > Floating-Pt opt no no yes yes > Coprocessor > > My mistake was to forget that the J11 needs 4 clock cycles per > microcycle (MC), that's why 18 MHz clock leads to 222 ns MC period. > > In the end the J11 (222ns MC) is faster than the 11/70 (150 ns MC) > because it has a better micro architecture (three stage pipeline > vs. instruction prefetch only). The J11 is roughly a factor two > better compared to 11/70 in terms of MC efficiency. Hmm, I seem to remember checking numbers a while ago and came to the conclusion that if the 11/70 would have all memory as cache, it would outperform the J11. Atleast at 18MHz, maybe also 20MHz. (Btw, that table is slightly wrong, as the 11/9x eventually made it to 20MHz). I have a processor handbook which gives instruction speeds of 11/70 instructions with cache hits and without, which tells you how fast the machine would be if you were all cache. The 11/70 suffers because memory is so slow. Johnny From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sun Jun 27 16:57:44 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:57:44 +0100 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module Message-ID: <4C27C958.408@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've got a Laserjet III laser scanner module kicking around in my junkbox, harvested from an utterly screwed LJ3. It has a fibre-optic light pipe on one side, which connects to a photosensor on the motherboard. Does anyone know what the frequency or period of the photocell signal is? That is to say, how long does it take for the scanner to make one complete pass from "horizontal blank" to the right margin -- in other words, the time from the leading edge of one photocell pulse to the next? I'm toying with the idea of repurposing the scanner module for another project (using a BluRay laser diode to print directly onto photographic paper then process using a 3-bath B&W process), and I'd like to figure out (in advance!) what the requirements will be placed on the paper drive system (among other things!) Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jun 28 07:04:48 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 07:04:48 -0500 Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Chris M wrote: > everyone gather round. No hard woods, only wiffle ball bats :) > > anyone own/used to own 1? In the rare event someone has one or more toasted units, and willing to part with them, I'm interested. There's more then one way to skin a cat (PERISH THE THOUGHT!). The last time I saw one of these on ebay. The price was insane. I want to say $1000. I want one also. But I think this may be a realistic candidate for emmulation. Likewise, I'd like to have a Sharp 68000. I don't think that's going to happen either. :-( brian From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Jun 28 12:27:23 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:27:23 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: >> Johnny Billquist wrote: >> > I wasn't aware that any prototypes ever were produced and came as >> > far as being functional. I thought it was just paper work that >> > had bee done. >> >> The 11/74 wasn't marketed, as pointed out in this thread, but a >> few systems were build by DEC. A picture of such 11/74 system >> was made available by Tim Shoppa, see >> >> http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg >> >> You'll nicely see the four CPUs. > Yes, I know of these systems. However, that is not an 11/74 on that > picture, but an 11/70mP. There is a difference... > As pointed out, the 11/70mP was marketed as an 11/74, but it's a > different CPU. > The easiest way to see that this is a picture of an 11/70mP is by > looking at the lower rotary switch, which only have four positions, and > not eight (which the 11/74 have). So no CIS on this machine. > The only 11/74 picture I've seen so far is the silk screen panel picture > posted a few days ago. Unfortunately I've already forgotten the name > (I'm lousy with names, sorry) of the person who posted it, and who also > worked on the 11/74 CIS microcode. > The machine on that picture is probably CASTOR:: by the way. The people who work with/maintain CASTOR:: call it a 11/74, FWIW. They never used the term "11/70mP" in front of me for sure. I would occasionally elicit comments about multiprocessing on 73's or 93's but it always came back to "our 11/74 does it THIS WAY" because that was the working example. I'm not saying that "11/70mP" is wrong, indeed it's used in some of the drawings and memos to describe what was commonly called the 11/74. CIS was real important to some DECcies circa late 70's for some Cobol requirement but coming from the real-time side none of us ever cared. We'd just run across machines that had this unneeded option. Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 14:31:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:31:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C27C958.408@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 27, 10 10:57:44 pm Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > I've got a Laserjet III laser scanner module kicking around in my > junkbox, harvested from an utterly screwed LJ3. It has a fibre-optic > light pipe on one side, which connects to a photosensor on the > motherboard. Does anyone know what the frequency or period of the > photocell signal is? I don't know off the top of my head, but it should be farily easy to measure the speed of rotation of the motor. Each revolution would generate beam detect pulses (the output of the photosensor) where is the number of sides of the polygonal mirror. Note that the beam detect sensor detects light from the actual laser, there is no other light source. At the end of each line, the laser is turned on, the formatter then waits for a pulse on the beam detect line. Of course at the start of a page, the laser it turned on until the controlling electronics starts to get beam detect pulses, so it knows roughly when to ecxpect them thereafter (and can then know when to turn on the laser for this purpose). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 14:36:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:36:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jun 26, 10 04:37:09 pm Message-ID: > > everyone gather round. No hard woods, only wiffle ball bats :) > > anyone own/used to own 1? In the rare event someone has one or more > toasted units, and willing to part with them, I'm interested. There's I am going to appear dense, but what's a 'Falcon' (other than, I beleive, an SBC/21 single-board Qbus machine using the T11 CPU). > more then one way to skin a cat (PERISH THE THOUGHT!). I would much rather you didn't dismantle (working) cats :-) -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jun 28 15:01:34 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:01:34 -0500 Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: References: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I am going to appear dense, but what's a 'Falcon' (other than, I beleive, > an SBC/21 single-board Qbus machine using the T11 CPU). Actually, I jumped to conclusions. I assumed he was talking about the last iteration of the Atari ST line of computers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Falcon brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 28 15:04:39 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:04:39 -0400 Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: References: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/28/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I am going to appear dense, but what's a 'Falcon' (other than, I beleive, >> an SBC/21 single-board Qbus machine using the T11 CPU). Tony, I'm with you - someone says "Falcon" in the context of classic computers, and that's the one that leaps to mind. > Actually, I jumped to conclusions. I assumed he was talking about the > last iteration of the Atari ST line of computers: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Falcon Ah... not being an Atari person, I had forgotten about that model. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 15:08:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 21:08:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lanning" at Jun 28, 10 03:01:34 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am going to appear dense, but what's a 'Falcon' (other than, I beleive, > > an SBC/21 single-board Qbus machine using the T11 CPU). > > Actually, I jumped to conclusions. I assumed he was talking about the > last iteration of the Atari ST line of computers: Ah, of course... Now you meniton it, I do recall the name. I suspect there are many rarer 68K boxes (PERQ AGW3300 anyone?) The only Atari I would dream of finding is their transputer workstation, though :-) -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Jun 28 15:11:01 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:11:01 -0400 Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2901D5.6040800@verizon.net> On 06/28/2010 03:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> everyone gather round. No hard woods, only wiffle ball bats :) >> >> anyone own/used to own 1? In the rare event someone has one or more >> toasted units, and willing to part with them, I'm interested. There's >> > I am going to appear dense, but what's a 'Falcon' (other than, I beleive, > an SBC/21 single-board Qbus machine using the T11 CPU). > > >> more then one way to skin a cat (PERISH THE THOUGHT!). >> > I would much rather you didn't dismantle (working) cats :-) > > There are plenty of old RQDX1, 2 and 3 disk controllers with T11s on them that have other problems. In my eyes shredding a RQDX1 for the cpu is a kindness. Falcon cards were SBC11/21 and they were quite common for embedded systems. The T11 is a fine implementation of PDP11 in 40 pins and has some unique features like scalable databus (8bit or 16bit wide) sequenced controlled for Dram use or static signals for static ram use and programmable startup address and cycle timing. I managed to get some while at DEC off engineering junkbox boards. Allison > -tony > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 28 15:12:32 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:12:32 -0400 Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 4:08 PM Subject: Re: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) >> >> On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Tony Duell >> wrote: >> > I am going to appear dense, but what's a 'Falcon' (other than, I >> > beleive, >> > an SBC/21 single-board Qbus machine using the T11 CPU). >> >> Actually, I jumped to conclusions. I assumed he was talking about the >> last iteration of the Atari ST line of computers: > > Ah, of course... Now you meniton it, I do recall the name. I suspect > there are many rarer 68K boxes (PERQ AGW3300 anyone?) > > The only Atari I would dream of finding is their transputer workstation, > though :-) > > -tony Atari Falcon 68030 with DSP is what came to mind, last model before the end. I guess the older you are the older gear with the Falcon name you think about. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 28 15:35:25 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: References: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I am going to appear dense, but what's a 'Falcon' (other than, I beleive, >> an SBC/21 single-board Qbus machine using the T11 CPU). > > Actually, I jumped to conclusions. I assumed he was talking about the > last iteration of the Atari ST line of computers: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_Falcon That is the one I was thinking about. I'd love one, but doubt I'll ever own one. This reminds me, I need to start thinking seriously about determining if my Atari TT030 still works after being stuck in storage for about a decade. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 28 16:05:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: References: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100628140144.L85785@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Tony, I'm with you - someone says "Falcon" in the context of classic > computers, and that's the one that leaps to mind. In the 1960s, I had a Ford Falcon. Kinda the Packard-Bell of cars. Apparently, I was the only employee at National Space Sciences Data Center/Goddard Space Flight Center who had to hitchhike to work. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 28 16:06:20 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 28, 10 09:08:16 pm" Message-ID: <201006282106.o5SL6KPE018804@floodgap.com> > > > I am going to appear dense, but what's a 'Falcon' (other than, I beleive, > > > an SBC/21 single-board Qbus machine using the T11 CPU). > > > > Actually, I jumped to conclusions. I assumed he was talking about the > > last iteration of the Atari ST line of computers: > > Ah, of course... Now you meniton it, I do recall the name. I suspect > there are many rarer 68K boxes (PERQ AGW3300 anyone?) Speaking of rarer 68K boxes, there are always the various Alpha Micro Falcon cards. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso ---- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 28 16:15:57 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:15:57 +0100 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C29110D.40902@philpem.me.uk> On 28/06/10 20:31, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't know off the top of my head, but it should be farily easy to > measure the speed of rotation of the motor. Each revolution would > generate beam detect pulses (the output of the photosensor) where > is the number of sides of the polygonal mirror. Well, working backwards from DPI and print speed gives about 3MHz dot clock: 300DPI * 11 inches (paper height) * 3ppm = 9900 lines per minute (thus, the line rate is 9900Hz, or 9.9kHz) 9900lpm * 300 dots per line = 2.97e6 (thus, the pixel rate is 2.97MHz) Replacing the laser assembly might be "interesting", as will realigning the optics. My back-of-an-envelope calculations suggest I need a 0.085mm spot size to get to 300DPI: 300dpi = 300 dots per inch, or 1/300in per pixel 1/300 * 25.4mm/in = 0.0846667 Focusing that will be.... "fun", especially with a 20mW blue diode laser... and I need to find a beam sensor that's sensitive to blue light. Seems like it should work... though designing a suitable constant-current controller with ~3MHz analog current modulation will be interesting. PWM would require ~768MHz modulation, so analog is the "easy way out", and beam power is roughly linear from the lasing threshold (30mA) up to 10mW (~40mA). Hmmm. > Note that the beam detect sensor detects light from the actual laser, > there is no other light source. At the end of each line, the laser is > turned on, the formatter then waits for a pulse on the beam detect line. I figured it'd be something like that -- beam on until detect or timeout, then once there's confirmation that everything is up to speed, feed in a sheet of paper and go for it. Processing the print will, of course, be the "fun" bit. A "crazy man's roller-transport print processor" might be next on the cards. > Of course at the start of a page, the laser it turned on until the > controlling electronics starts to get beam detect pulses, so it knows > roughly when to ecxpect them thereafter (and can then know when to turn > on the laser for this purpose). So am I right in thinking it has some form of PLL to generate the pixel clock from the beam-detect (or motor tacho?) pulses? That's along the lines of what I was going to do... lock a fairly slow-loop PLL off the either the beam detect or the tacho (haven't decided which), then use the pulses from that to drive the clock input for the data shifter. It's like the CX-VDO all over again.... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 28 16:47:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:47:56 -0700 Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: <20100628140144.L85785@shell.lmi.net> References: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, , <20100628140144.L85785@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4C28B61C.18374.13C43DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jun 2010 at 14:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > In the 1960s, I had a Ford Falcon. Kinda the Packard-Bell of cars. > Apparently, I was the only employee at National Space Sciences Data > Center/Goddard Space Flight Center who had to hitchhike to work. That was on alternate days. On the days you actually drove to work, you gave lifts to owners of Corvairs, --Chuck From rdbrown at pacific.net.au Mon Jun 28 09:34:47 2010 From: rdbrown at pacific.net.au (Rodney Brown) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:34:47 +1000 Subject: Ebay ISA NI AT-GPIB/TNT+. IEEE 488.2 (Analyzer), HPDrive compat? Message-ID: <1277735687.1962.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Item number:300434169483 (9 boards @ USD10 + postage each) AT-GPIB/TNT+. IEEE 488.2 (ISA) Single-Board GPIB Interface and Analyzer I think the analyzer software that runs on Windows 95/98 and ME is bundled with the 1.70 version driver that may be available by request (from the 2nd URL) http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/532/lang/en http://www.ni.com/support/gpib/drivers/ I have run a similar card in a Compaq DeskPro 6500? P3 PCI machine with a legacy ISA slot (captured an HP150 boot sequence). As I read it the HPDrive software will run on Window 95/98, ME with this board. See the HPDrive site. http://www.hp9845.net/9845/projects/hpdrive/ From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jun 28 12:59:04 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 12:59:04 -0500 Subject: OT Konica Magicolor 2550 laser printer Message-ID: <20100628175904.GD19309@n0jcf.net> I'm off topic but I know there are a lot of laser printer enthusiests here and hopefully someone that has been digilent about the firmware for this printer... not to mention people who like fixing things. Has anyone possibly kept older firmware versions for this printer around? I have a Magicolor 2550 that I have been running for several years. It always had a problem where it would fall off my network and I would have to power cycle it to recover. Didn't matter if DHCP or static IP was used... the ethernet would just go dead. A few months ago, I decided to "fix" this and went looking for a firmware upgrade. My firmware was orginal and there was a newer one, many revisions advanced. So, I reflashed the printer. This fixed the network problem however in trade, I got two new worse problems. Now, the image on the paper is slightly rotated... about 5 degrees so that it is no longer square to the paper. Additionally, the front panel keypad no longer functions and if you press any key, the printer enters into a loop, printing a menu page and you have to power cycle it to recover. Nice. I absolutely put in the correct firmware for this printer model so Konica apparently has some issues. I've gotten no response from Konica support and so I am looking for someone who may have archived older versions of firmware so that I can revert the thing to something less hostile. It was otherwise a really nice color laser printer and I _should_ have just lived with the network problem. Again, it's a Magicolor 2550EN. Not the "DN" model which does use a different firmware image. Thanks and I appreciate off-topic bandwidth. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 28 21:17:54 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:17:54 -0600 Subject: PLATO@50 Conference Message-ID: I've finally finished my article on the PLATO at 50 Conference: Please feel free to post comments/corrections on the blog. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jun 28 21:35:52 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 23:35:52 -0300 Subject: Literature request: Tektronix DM501 (not A) service manual References: Message-ID: <076201cb1734$515786e0$6501a8c0@portajara> Well, since most computer collectors repair their own equipment, maybe I get lucky :) I need the operation/service manual of the DM501 (not A) digital multimeter from the TM500 series, from Tektronix. Maybe someone has a digital or paper copy :) Also, I need the 3842 DMM chip, used in many multimeters and my DM501 that I'd love to repair. It is a kind of 7107 but very old. Mine is broken :( Thanks! Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 28 21:46:54 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 20:46:54 -0600 Subject: Literature request: Tektronix DM501 (not A) service manual In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 28 Jun 2010 23:35:52 -0300. <076201cb1734$515786e0$6501a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: In article <076201cb1734$515786e0$6501a8c0 at portajara>, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" writes: > I need the operation/service manual of the DM501 (not A) digital > multimeter from the TM500 series, from Tektronix. Maybe someone has a > digital or paper copy :) Since its a piece of test equipment, did you check the Boat Anchor Manual Archive? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jun 28 22:28:17 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 00:28:17 -0300 Subject: Literature request: Tektronix DM501 (not A) service manual References: Message-ID: <07e201cb173b$67a92a00$6501a8c0@portajara> > Since its a piece of test equipment, did you check the Boat Anchor > Manual Archive? Yep, first thing I did, there is the (military) callibration manual, but not the service manual Thanks anyway :) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 17:15:33 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <692160.54677.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> a Sharp something or other just ended IINM. Of course it's a candidate for emulation. But that's so boring. What's even more boring (and painful) is a dead Falcon I might say... --- On Mon, 6/28/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > From: Brian Lanning > Subject: Re: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 8:04 AM > On Sat, Jun 26, 2010 at 6:37 PM, > Chris M > wrote: > > everyone gather round. No hard woods, only wiffle ball > bats :) > > > > anyone own/used to own 1? In the rare event someone > has one or more toasted units, and willing to part with > them, I'm interested. There's more then one way to skin a > cat (PERISH THE THOUGHT!). > > The last time I saw one of these on ebay. The price > was insane. I > want to say $1000. I want one also. But I think > this may be a > realistic candidate for emmulation. > > Likewise, I'd like to have a Sharp 68000. I don't > think that's going > to happen either. :-( > > brian > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 17:17:11 2010 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <463691.94947.qm@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/28/10, Brian Lanning wrote: > Actually, I jumped to conclusions. but a correct jump nevertheless From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jun 29 11:50:17 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:50:17 -0700 Subject: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) In-Reply-To: <20100628140144.L85785@shell.lmi.net> References: <480129.7651.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20100628140144.L85785@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 2:05 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: I'm thinking of buying a Falcon (time for an intervention) > > On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Tony, I'm with you - someone says "Falcon" in the context of classic > > computers, and that's the one that leaps to mind. > > In the 1960s, I had a Ford Falcon. Kinda the Packard-Bell of cars. > Apparently, I was the only employee at National Space Sciences Data > Center/Goddard Space Flight Center who had to hitchhike to work. > > A 1963 Ford Falcon was my first car, and it was great. It was the station wagon model, a small but heavy vehicle made with real steel, and it still got 30mpg on the highway! I have fond memories of that car. -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 14:40:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 20:40:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C29110D.40902@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 28, 10 10:15:57 pm Message-ID: > Replacing the laser assembly might be "interesting", as will realigning > the optics. My back-of-an-envelope calculations suggest I need a 0.085mm > spot size to get to 300DPI: There are of course various optical components in the sanner assemhly. A pair of cylindrical lenses IIRC, various mirrosm and some kind of optical uinit on the front of the laser diode. > > 300dpi = 300 dots per inch, or 1/300in per pixel > 1/300 * 25.4mm/in = 0.0846667 > > Focusing that will be.... "fun", especially with a 20mW blue diode > laser... and I need to find a beam sensor that's sensitive to blue light. Setting up a (CX engine) scanner from scratch was 'fun' too :-). It's an IR laser so you can;'t see the beam. I was tracing it through the optical bits with an IR remote control tester :-). > > Seems like it should work... though designing a suitable > constant-current controller with ~3MHz analog current modulation will be > interesting. PWM would require ~768MHz modulation, so analog is the > "easy way out", and beam power is roughly linear from the lasing > threshold (30mA) up to 10mW (~40mA). Hmmm. The origian laser controller was on/off only (but not a simple design due to the speed reuired). There was a DAC (IIRC discrete resistors in the SX engine) to steh laser diode current, but that was done AFAIK once per page (it depended on the sensitivity of the drum in the toner cartridge, encoded by a couple of plastic clips on the cartridge detected by microswitches on the side of the PSU module). Would uofficial scheamtics of the SX engine be any use? When I've recovered from the 'treatment' at the local quackshop and when the temperature has dropped enoguh to be conducive to hacking, I will see what I can dig out if you are interested. > > Of course at the start of a page, the laser it turned on until the > > controlling electronics starts to get beam detect pulses, so it knows > > roughly when to ecxpect them thereafter (and can then know when to turn > > on the laser for this purpose). > > So am I right in thinking it has some form of PLL to generate the pixel > clock from the beam-detect (or motor tacho?) pulses? Not AFAIK (or at least the CX enginer controllers I've worked on don't). The motor speed is controlled by a PLL-tpye thing (the chip on the motor PCB in the scanner unit, with an 'FG' coil on the PCB). Any slight errors in the bir rate would slightly cheange the size of the printout, but who actually checks that (rememebr a crystal almost certainly better than 1 part in 1000, so the erors will not be large). > > That's along the lines of what I was going to do... lock a fairly > slow-loop PLL off the either the beam detect or the tacho (haven't > decided which), then use the pulses from that to drive the clock input > for the data shifter. > > It's like the CX-VDO all over again.... :) The CX and SX printer engine interefaces are remarkably similar (to the extend that the CX-VDO simply has a cable from the external DC37 connector to the 34 pin header on the DC controller board, the SX does have an extra PCB, but it's just logic buffer chips). I should ahve scheamtics for that board (and the CX engine) too. I think the PERQ scheamtics books are on bitsavers. Take a look at the OIO board schematics, you should find a CX-VDO printer interface there. Agian I shouldbe able to provide details of the state machine ROMs, etc. -tony From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 15:23:38 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 13:23:38 -0700 Subject: Literature request: Tektronix DM501 (not A) service manual In-Reply-To: <07e201cb173b$67a92a00$6501a8c0@portajara> References: <07e201cb173b$67a92a00$6501a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: You might try this list: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/?yguid=213948722 The are mostly a Tektronix Ocilloscope list for old scopes but cover some test equipment also, I believe. The people on that list would be familiar with what you are looking for and most likely to have it in their files. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 29 16:45:49 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 14:45:49 -0700 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: <4C29110D.40902@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 28, 10 10:15:57 pm, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 20:40:15 +0100 > > > Replacing the laser assembly might be "interesting", as will realigning > > the optics. My back-of-an-envelope calculations suggest I need a 0.085mm > > spot size to get to 300DPI: > > There are of course various optical components in the sanner assemhly. A > pair of cylindrical lenses IIRC, various mirrosm and some kind of optical > uinit on the front of the laser diode. > > > > > 300dpi = 300 dots per inch, or 1/300in per pixel > > 1/300 * 25.4mm/in = 0.0846667 > > > > Focusing that will be.... "fun", especially with a 20mW blue diode > > laser... and I need to find a beam sensor that's sensitive to blue light. > > Setting up a (CX engine) scanner from scratch was 'fun' too :-). It's an > IR laser so you can;'t see the beam. I was tracing it through the optical > bits with an IR remote control tester :-). > ---snip--- Hi Although, I've not tried this, it was mentioned that most digital cameras have some sensitivity to IR ( even though they have filters to block most ). One should be able to check things by using a digital camera to view with. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From technobug at comcast.net Tue Jun 29 18:30:50 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 16:30:50 -0700 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A39802C-6B74-4AFE-9061-E2E87B1D14D6@comcast.net> On JMon, 28 Jun 2010 22:15:57 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: Having played with a the Canon II printer series scanners (the guts of both the Laserjet II and Apple Laserwriter II), some comments: > Well, working backwards from DPI and print speed gives about 3MHz dot clock: > > 300DPI * 11 inches (paper height) * 3ppm = 9900 lines per minute > (thus, the line rate is 9900Hz, or 9.9kHz) > 9900lpm * 300 dots per line = 2.97e6 > (thus, the pixel rate is 2.97MHz) Unless you are using the control board, the above calculation is moot: the scanner is a DC brushless motor - the speed is controlled by the input voltage. The control board closes a motor loop based on the feedback optical pulse and synchroniz(s)es the speed with the shift register clock. You can chose a clock rate to suit your system, build the motor control loop with a D/A, and set up logic to fire off at the right time based on the feedback optical pulse. If you are using the control board, all you have to do is feed the data in and the board will take care of the bit clocking. If you are generating the bit clock, you can determine your DPI. The II series uses a 6-sided mirror. > Replacing the laser assembly might be "interesting", as will realigning > the optics. My back-of-an-envelope calculations suggest I need a 0.085mm > spot size to get to 300DPI: > > 300dpi = 300 dots per inch, or 1/300in per pixel > 1/300 * 25.4mm/in = 0.0846667 > > Focusing that will be.... "fun", especially with a 20mW blue diode > laser... and I need to find a beam sensor that's sensitive to blue light. The sensor on the board should work if you remove the red filter/attenuator on the input to the fibre optic cable. You might have to either increase the gain of the amp at the detector or place an attenuator in the optical chain. In any case, you should replace the red filter with a suitable pass filter to match your laser. IIRC the laser is collimated to the desired spot size, i.e. the beam is parallel through the optical path - no focusing per se. However, going from red to blue will change the deflection characteristics of the optical path. You will probably see a narrower page at the same distance from the folding mirror and possibly some non-linearities. By changing the distance from the final mirror you should be able to control the page width. Non-linearities are a different matter. > > Seems like it should work... though designing a suitable > constant-current controller with ~3MHz analog current modulation will be > interesting. PWM would require ~768MHz modulation, so analog is the > "easy way out", and beam power is roughly linear from the lasing > threshold (30mA) up to 10mW (~40mA). Hmmm. As mentioned above, you will have to control the motor voltage to sync with the bit oscillator to achieve the DPI. Also note that most laser diodes have a photodiode as part of the assembly and power is also in a control loop. [...] > So am I right in thinking it has some form of PLL to generate the pixel > clock from the beam-detect (or motor tacho?) pulses? Actually, you probably want to fix the bit rate (crystal oscillator) and control the motor speed so that you get n bit counts between laser pulses. It should be fairly easy to control to +/- 1 bit. Note that the number of bits will be greater than the dots you wish to generate in order to take care of margins. > > That's along the lines of what I was going to do... lock a fairly > slow-loop PLL off the either the beam detect or the tacho (haven't > decided which), then use the pulses from that to drive the clock input > for the data shifter. > > It's like the CX-VDO all over again.... :) Different problem... > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ I used two scanners a few year ago to make a far IR scanner. The first was a modified mirror wheel which slow scanned the vertical and the second was the horizontal scan. The optical output was fed to pyroelectric detector found in a motion detector with modified electronics. Fun toys. CRC From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jun 30 00:08:17 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (RodSmallwood) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 06:08:17 +0100 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2661EE.60005@gsi.de> References: <4C2661EE.60005@gsi.de> Message-ID: <8E3BF270CF6140D5BC20400334922C1B@Edicons.local> Thanks for the concise reply. Speed is not an issue. J11 speed would be just fine. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Walter F.J. Mueller Sent: 26 June 2010 21:24 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa RodSmallwood" wrote: > How difficult would it be to extend one of these FGPA PDP-11's to be put > on a quad DEC board and be a plug in replacement for say an 11/93 or > 11/94 CPU. (M8981-AA OR 11/91-BA)? > > Rod Hi Rod, possible and feasible, but requires three tasks to be addressed: 1. an adapter board is needed to connect the FPGA development boards (holding the FPGA and memory) to the UNIBUS or QBUS. Main active part of this adapter board are the bus transceiver for UNIBUS or QBUS. 2. The UNIBUS or QBUS bus interface logic can be added to the FPGA. Given that the system clock period is small compared to typical times of these buses it is quite simple and straight forward to implement such a bus interface. 3. the current w11a implementation doesn't support bus masters on the I/O bus. DMA transfers from disk/tape devices are currently emulated. Next versions of the FPGA implementation however will add this functionality. But keep in mind: the current FPGA implementation isn't tremendously faster than a J11. Walter From evan at snarc.net Wed Jun 30 01:24:50 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 02:24:50 -0400 Subject: Knuth Message-ID: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> I'm sure you all read Slashdot, but just in case not: "Knuth Plans 'Earthshaking Announcement'" http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/06/29/2233219/Knuth-Plans-Earthshaking-Announcement-Wednesday From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 30 01:23:30 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 07:23:30 +0100 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C29110D.40902@philpem.me.uk> References: <4C29110D.40902@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4C2AE2E2.6000901@dunnington.plus.com> On 28/06/2010 22:15, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 28/06/10 20:31, Tony Duell wrote: >> I don't know off the top of my head, but it should be farily easy to >> measure the speed of rotation of the motor. Each revolution would >> generate beam detect pulses (the output of the photosensor) where >> is the number of sides of the polygonal mirror. > > Well, working backwards from DPI and print speed gives about 3MHz dot > clock: > > 300DPI * 11 inches (paper height) * 3ppm = 9900 lines per minute > (thus, the line rate is 9900Hz, or 9.9kHz) > 9900lpm * 300 dots per line = 2.97e6 > (thus, the pixel rate is 2.97MHz) Am I missing something, or is that too low by a factor of about 8 or 9 (the number of inches along a line)? It's somewhere in the region of 24MHz, surely. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 30 01:55:08 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 23:55:08 -0700 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module References: <4C29110D.40902@philpem.me.uk> <4C2AE2E2.6000901@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4C2AEA4C.80022466@cs.ubc.ca> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 28/06/2010 22:15, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > On 28/06/10 20:31, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I don't know off the top of my head, but it should be farily easy to > >> measure the speed of rotation of the motor. Each revolution would > >> generate beam detect pulses (the output of the photosensor) where > >> is the number of sides of the polygonal mirror. > > > > Well, working backwards from DPI and print speed gives about 3MHz dot > > clock: > > > > 300DPI * 11 inches (paper height) * 3ppm = 9900 lines per minute > > (thus, the line rate is 9900Hz, or 9.9kHz) > > 9900lpm * 300 dots per line = 2.97e6 > > (thus, the pixel rate is 2.97MHz) > > Am I missing something, or is that too low by a factor of about 8 or 9 > (the number of inches along a line)? It's somewhere in the region of > 24MHz, surely. There would also appear to be a minutes->seconds conversion missing. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 30 02:17:07 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 00:17:07 -0700 Subject: Knuth References: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C2AEF73.84DC2277@cs.ubc.ca> Evan Koblentz wrote: > I'm sure you all read Slashdot, but just in case not: "Knuth Plans > 'Earthshaking Announcement'" > > http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/06/29/2233219/Knuth-Plans-Earthshaking-Announcement-Wednesday Buried in there is this little amusement: http://www.codethinked.com/post/2007/12/06/The-Programmer-Dress-Code.aspx I think we can consider it on-topic in light of the history of the people mentioned. From evan at snarc.net Wed Jun 30 02:27:47 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 03:27:47 -0400 Subject: Knuth In-Reply-To: <4C2AEF73.84DC2277@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> <4C2AEF73.84DC2277@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4C2AF1F3.5060703@snarc.net> >> I'm sure you all read Slashdot, but just in case not: "Knuth Plans >> 'Earthshaking Announcement'" >> >> http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/06/29/2233219/Knuth-Plans-Earthshaking-Announcement-Wednesday > Buried in there is this little amusement: > http://www.codethinked.com/post/2007/12/06/The-Programmer-Dress-Code.aspx > I think we can consider it on-topic in light of the history of the people mentioned. To that list of bearded computer/history heroes, I nominate Digibarn's Bruce Damer! http://www.damer.com/pictures/bruce/pix/index.htm From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 30 09:44:45 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 07:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Knuth In-Reply-To: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> References: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20100630073708.F60938@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I'm sure you all read Slashdot, but just in case not: "Knuth Plans > 'Earthshaking Announcement'" > http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/06/29/2233219/Knuth-Plans-Earthshaking-Announcement-Wednesday Volume 4 ? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 30 10:01:31 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 08:01:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Knuth In-Reply-To: <20100630073708.F60938@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> <20100630073708.F60938@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100630075931.C60938@shell.lmi.net> The entire world will switch to the Potrzebie system of weights and Measures ? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 10:10:32 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 08:10:32 -0700 Subject: Help on finding photos of computers from the 80's In-Reply-To: <46B1F542.10304@sbcglobal.net> References: , <46B1F542.10304@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Hi Bob There is an interesting Nicolet machine on ebay (250657820736). I don't know if it has the array processor in it to do FFTs. It does have a 1280 processor board. I don't know if I'll bid on it. I was wondering what the best way to ship it and about what it might cost? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 10:12:25 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 08:12:25 -0700 Subject: Help on finding photos of computers from the 80's In-Reply-To: References: , , <46B1F542.10304@sbcglobal.net>, Message-ID: Oops! Another send before checking sorry. Dwight > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Help on finding photos of computers from the 80's > Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 08:10:32 -0700 > > > Hi Bob > > There is an interesting Nicolet machine on ebay (250657820736). > > I don't know if it has the array processor in it to do FFTs. It > > does have a 1280 processor board. > > I don't know if I'll bid on it. I was wondering what the best > > way to ship it and about what it might cost? > > Dwight > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jun 30 10:51:38 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 08:51:38 -0700 Subject: Knuth In-Reply-To: <20100630073708.F60938@shell.lmi.net> References: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net>, <20100630073708.F60938@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin [cisin at xenosoft.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:44 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Knuth On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I'm sure you all read Slashdot, but just in case not: "Knuth Plans > 'Earthshaking Announcement'" > http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/06/29/2233219/Knuth-Plans-Earthshaking-Announcement-Wednesday How about: TeX was really data collection for a stealth AI project.... From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 30 11:38:44 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 10:38:44 -0600 Subject: Knuth In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 30 Jun 2010 08:51:38 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > How about: TeX was really data collection for a stealth AI project.... How about: "I've come to my senses and realized that my attempts at literate programming were a mistake." -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jun 30 10:27:10 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 17:27:10 +0200 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> "Shoppa, Tim" wrote: > "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: >>> Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> > I wasn't aware that any prototypes ever were produced and came as >>> > far as being functional. I thought it was just paper work that >>> > had bee done. >>> >>> The 11/74 wasn't marketed, as pointed out in this thread, but a >>> few systems were build by DEC. A picture of such 11/74 system >>> was made available by Tim Shoppa, see >>> >>> http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg >>> >>> You'll nicely see the four CPUs. > >> Yes, I know of these systems. However, that is not an 11/74 on that >> picture, but an 11/70mP. There is a difference... >> As pointed out, the 11/70mP was marketed as an 11/74, but it's a >> different CPU. > >> The easiest way to see that this is a picture of an 11/70mP is by >> looking at the lower rotary switch, which only have four positions, and >> not eight (which the 11/74 have). So no CIS on this machine. > >> The only 11/74 picture I've seen so far is the silk screen panel picture >> posted a few days ago. Unfortunately I've already forgotten the name >> (I'm lousy with names, sorry) of the person who posted it, and who also >> worked on the 11/74 CIS microcode. > >> The machine on that picture is probably CASTOR:: by the way. > > The people who work with/maintain CASTOR:: call it a 11/74, FWIW. Yes, I know. I'll reply to this one last time, and then I'll give up. Don North reported that he had been a part of the team that had written the CIS microcode for the 11/74 CPU. I commented that I thought the 11/74 CPU had only been a paper product. Don North also pointed out that marketing "stole" the 11/74 moniker for the 11/70mP system. Now, throughout this discussion, we need some way of separating what we are talking about. DEC internal project papers seems like a good start. There we have the 11/70mP, which is a modified 11/70 with just the addition of the ASRB cache bypass and memory interlock, as well as the cache bypass bit in the PDR, and a cache bypass bit and flush control in the cache control CSR. The 11/74 is a total redesign of the 11/70 CPU, with the same modifications as the 11/70mP, but also the addition of the CIS, removal of one Massbus, and redesign of a whole bunch of CPU boards, including removing one clock signal not used, and the addition of new clock signals and control signals required by the CIS. I'm only talking CPUs here, not systems. Another way to name them would perhaps be: KB11-B - Old 11/70 CPU with synch FPP. KB11-C - New 11/70 CPU with asynch FPP. KB11-CM - MP modified KB11-C KB11-E(?) - The new 11/74 CPU with asynch FPP and CIS. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 11/74 CPU were to be called KB11-E, but I also have this nagging feeling that KB11-E might have been the 11/44, or possibly the 11/60. Now, as I myself pointed out, RSX regards the 11/70mP as an 11/74, and that is also what the CPU identification code in RSX calls it. But if we call this an 11/74, what shall we call the 11/70 with CIS? So, for the purpose of this thread, I decided to go with Don Norths naming, and call the 11/70 modified for multiprocessor operations the 11/70mP. If you look at the picture on your site, Tim, you'll also notice that the text on the front panel actually says something like "PDP-11/74 MP". (Not sure about the /74, but you definitely see the "MP" part. (http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg) Now, compare that to Don Norths picture of the 11/74 front panel: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg. > They never used the term "11/70mP" in front of me for sure. I would occasionally elicit comments about multiprocessing on 73's or 93's but it always came back to "our 11/74 does it THIS WAY" because that was the working example. I'm not disagreeing with you, Tim. I'm just trying to point out that we have two different CPUs here, one of which I thought was never made, but Don actually claims that it did exist, even if just as one prototype. The system was called an 11/74 everywhere, but for the purpose of this discussion, we need to make a distinction between the CPUs. > I'm not saying that "11/70mP" is wrong, indeed it's used in some of the drawings and memos to describe what was commonly called the 11/74. Yes. > CIS was real important to some DECcies circa late 70's for some Cobol requirement but coming from the real-time side none of us ever cared. We'd just run across machines that had this unneeded option. Indeed. And the 11/70 don't have it, nor does the 11/74 systems that ever were used. CASTOR:: was 4 CPUs, by the way, while PHEANX:: was only 2, if I remember right. Johnny From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 30 12:23:59 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 10:23:59 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> References: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C2B7DAF.5070408@brouhaha.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Another way to name them would perhaps be: > > KB11-B - Old 11/70 CPU with synch FPP. > KB11-C - New 11/70 CPU with asynch FPP. > KB11-CM - MP modified KB11-C > KB11-E(?) - The new 11/74 CPU with asynch FPP and CIS. > > I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 11/74 CPU were to be > called KB11-E, but I also have this nagging feeling that KB11-E might > have been the 11/44, or possibly the 11/60. The 11/44 CPU was a KD11-Z. The 11/60 CPU was a KD11-K. > Now, as I myself pointed out, RSX regards the 11/70mP as an 11/74, and > that is also what the CPU identification code in RSX calls it. Since the 11/70mp and 11/74 were never official products, there was a lot of conflation of the designations. Without the optional CIS, software can't easily distinguish an 11/70mp from an 11/74, so it probably simply didn't bother to try. Thus whether software reports the CPU as an 11/70mp or an 11/74 doesn't really prove much of anything. > But if we call this an 11/74, what shall we call the 11/70 with CIS? Fantasy? There wasn't such a thing, since there wasn't an 11/70 with a KB11-E CPU that was necessary to accomodate the KE74-A CIS. Eric From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jun 30 12:53:10 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 18:53:10 +0100 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2B8486.5050703@philpem.me.uk> On 29/06/10 20:40, Tony Duell wrote: >> Focusing that will be.... "fun", especially with a 20mW blue diode >> laser... and I need to find a beam sensor that's sensitive to blue light. > > Setting up a (CX engine) scanner from scratch was 'fun' too :-). It's an > IR laser so you can;'t see the beam. I was tracing it through the optical > bits with an IR remote control tester :-). Hah, I saw that comment of yours on RepairFAQ :) Bet they were a pig to set up, even with the factory test jigs. > The origian laser controller was on/off only (but not a simple design due > to the speed reuired). Thankfully fast opamps aren't as rare as they used to be. Fast MOSFETS moreso :) > There was a DAC (IIRC discrete resistors in the > SX engine) to steh laser diode current, It was current-regulated? That's an odd choice if you're going to switch a diode on and off at ~20MHz. Would have thought the current regulation loop would have had kittens every time the current was turned off, and put a current spike through the diode at every off-to-on transition (unless it was (*really* carefully designed). > but that was done AFAIK once per > page (it depended on the sensitivity of the drum in the toner cartridge, > encoded by a couple of plastic clips on the cartridge detected by > microswitches on the side of the PSU module). In this case it'd be done once per pixel... Fast DAC (probably 12-bit parallel) driven off a hardware LUT, followed by a bloomin' quick opamp current regulator. Gain-bandwidth and slew rate are going to have to be pretty beastly. > Would uofficial scheamtics of the SX engine be any use? If they include schematics of the laser driver and scanner motor driver? Hell yeah. > When I've > recovered from the 'treatment' at the local quackshop and when the > temperature has dropped enoguh to be conducive to hacking, I will see > what I can dig out if you are interested. That sounds great -- I'd also be more than happy to scan the schematics and make them available if anyone else on-list wants to see them. > Not AFAIK (or at least the CX enginer controllers I've worked on don't). > The motor speed is controlled by a PLL-tpye thing (the chip on the motor > PCB in the scanner unit, with an 'FG' coil on the PCB). Any slight errors > in the bir rate would slightly cheange the size of the printout, but who > actually checks that (rememebr a crystal almost certainly better than 1 > part in 1000, so the erors will not be large). Right, so it's locking the motor off of the incoming bit stream? When you explain it like that, it makes far more sense than locking the driver off of the motor. > I think the PERQ scheamtics books are on bitsavers. Take a look at the > OIO board schematics, you should find a CX-VDO printer interface there. > Agian I shouldbe able to provide details of the state machine ROMs, etc. I think I've found it... PERQ T2 schematics, volume 2. The PERQ 1A schematic set doesn't seem to include the OIO board, but there's a Canon LBP-only OIO board for the T2. I had a quick look at the PCB photos too... I've never seen anything quite like them. What are they, wire-on-epoxy? They look like someone took a sheet of FR4, put a load of pads down, then wired the pads up with Roadrunner wire and covered the whole mess in another layer of epoxy. Very strange, though it was probably a great way to get the wiring density up (but I bet crosstalk was a pig). Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jun 30 13:46:08 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 14:46:08 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> References: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4C2B90F0.90704@verizon.net> On 06/30/2010 11:27 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Shoppa, Tim" wrote: > >> "Walter F.J. Mueller" wrote: >>>> Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> > I wasn't aware that any prototypes ever were produced and came as >>>> > far as being functional. I thought it was just paper work that >>>> > had bee done. >>>> >>>> The 11/74 wasn't marketed, as pointed out in this thread, but a >>>> few systems were build by DEC. A picture of such 11/74 system >>>> was made available by Tim Shoppa, see >>>> >>>> http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg >>>> >>>> You'll nicely see the four CPUs. >> >>> Yes, I know of these systems. However, that is not an 11/74 on that >>> picture, but an 11/70mP. There is a difference... >>> As pointed out, the 11/70mP was marketed as an 11/74, but it's a >>> different CPU. >> >>> The easiest way to see that this is a picture of an 11/70mP is by >>> looking at the lower rotary switch, which only have four positions, >>> and not eight (which the 11/74 have). So no CIS on this machine. >> >>> The only 11/74 picture I've seen so far is the silk screen panel >>> picture posted a few days ago. Unfortunately I've already forgotten >>> the name (I'm lousy with names, sorry) of the person who posted it, >>> and who also worked on the 11/74 CIS microcode. >> >>> The machine on that picture is probably CASTOR:: by the way. >> >> The people who work with/maintain CASTOR:: call it a 11/74, FWIW. > > Yes, I know. > I'll reply to this one last time, and then I'll give up. > > Don North reported that he had been a part of the team that had > written the CIS microcode for the 11/74 CPU. > > I commented that I thought the 11/74 CPU had only been a paper product. > > Don North also pointed out that marketing "stole" the 11/74 moniker > for the 11/70mP system. > > Now, throughout this discussion, we need some way of separating what > we are talking about. DEC internal project papers seems like a good > start. > There we have the 11/70mP, which is a modified 11/70 with just the > addition of the ASRB cache bypass and memory interlock, as well as the > cache bypass bit in the PDR, and a cache bypass bit and flush control > in the cache control CSR. > The 11/74 is a total redesign of the 11/70 CPU, with the same > modifications as the 11/70mP, but also the addition of the CIS, > removal of one Massbus, and redesign of a whole bunch of CPU boards, > including removing one clock signal not used, and the addition of new > clock signals and control signals required by the CIS. > > I'm only talking CPUs here, not systems. > > Another way to name them would perhaps be: > > KB11-B - Old 11/70 CPU with synch FPP. > KB11-C - New 11/70 CPU with asynch FPP. > KB11-CM - MP modified KB11-C > KB11-E(?) - The new 11/74 CPU with asynch FPP and CIS. > > I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 11/74 CPU were to be > called KB11-E, but I also have this nagging feeling that KB11-E might > have been the 11/44, or possibly the 11/60. > > Now, as I myself pointed out, RSX regards the 11/70mP as an 11/74, and > that is also what the CPU identification code in RSX calls it. > > But if we call this an 11/74, what shall we call the 11/70 with CIS? > > So, for the purpose of this thread, I decided to go with Don Norths > naming, and call the 11/70 modified for multiprocessor operations the > 11/70mP. If you look at the picture on your site, Tim, you'll also > notice that the text on the front panel actually says something like > "PDP-11/74 MP". (Not sure about the /74, but you definitely see the > "MP" part. (http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg) > > Now, compare that to Don Norths picture of the 11/74 front panel: > http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg. > >> They never used the term "11/70mP" in front of me for sure. I would >> occasionally elicit comments about multiprocessing on 73's or 93's >> but it always came back to "our 11/74 does it THIS WAY" because that >> was the working example. > > I'm not disagreeing with you, Tim. I'm just trying to point out that > we have two different CPUs here, one of which I thought was never > made, but Don actually claims that it did exist, even if just as one > prototype. > > The system was called an 11/74 everywhere, but for the purpose of this > discussion, we need to make a distinction between the CPUs. > >> I'm not saying that "11/70mP" is wrong, indeed it's used in some of >> the drawings and memos to describe what was commonly called the 11/74. > > Yes. > >> CIS was real important to some DECcies circa late 70's for some Cobol >> requirement but coming from the real-time side none of us ever cared. >> We'd just run across machines that had this unneeded option. > > Indeed. And the 11/70 don't have it, nor does the 11/74 systems that > ever were used. > > CASTOR:: was 4 CPUs, by the way, while PHEANX:: was only 2, if I > remember right. > > Johnny > I can't add too much to this regarding what parts and what DEC designators applied but here are memories of the time frame. The first multiprocessor 11/70 was built with existing hardware and a few wire wrap and jumper mods. Memory said there were 4 total, three inside DEC and one at CMU that they hacked together possibly with DEC help. It would evolve to a design project to make that buildable as marketing felt they could sell it. However at the same time VAX/11/780 was real and also the various product groups were feeling the effects of FCCs new class A and B limits for RFI/EMI. That and the high end market had been moving to more addressable memory for bigger datasets and computationally wider data words as the tasks were getting bigger. At that time the big calculations that were important were atomic physics and weather models and both were associated with massive [by that eras measure] datasets. In many respects the same pressures repeated themselves in the 32bit to 64bit evolution [Alpha]. It was my understanding that the 11/70 continued as a grandfathered EMI and the new multiple cpu died due to EMI issues (plethora of cables and multiple racks) and it was a faster number cruncher than VAX-11/780. The VAX had higher potential as the new reigning super minicomputer. It wasn't long after that I'd seen a VAX-11/782, 785 and VAXclusters. There were several of the PDP11 flavors that would die or morph as a result of manufacturing and serviceability issues. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 30 15:08:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:08:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4A39802C-6B74-4AFE-9061-E2E87B1D14D6@comcast.net> from "CRC" at Jun 29, 10 04:30:50 pm Message-ID: > Having played with a the Canon II printer series scanners (the guts of = > both the Laserjet II and Apple Laserwriter II), some comments: > > > Well, working backwards from DPI and print speed gives about 3MHz dot = > clock: > >=20 > > 300DPI * 11 inches (paper height) * 3ppm =3D 9900 lines per minute > > (thus, the line rate is 9900Hz, or 9.9kHz) > > 9900lpm * 300 dots per line =3D 2.97e6 > > (thus, the pixel rate is 2.97MHz) > > Unless you are using the control board, the above calculation is moot: = > the scanner is a DC brushless motor - the speed is controlled by the = > input voltage. The control board closes a motor loop based on the = Not quite... I was mis-rememebring last night, and thinking more of the CX, which I did a lot more work with... The CX scanner motor has a control board on the bottom, This contains the brushless motor control chip and a PLL circuit [1]. The feedback is taken from an FG coil in the motor, not from the beam detect pusel. The motor runs fine -- and at the right speed -- without the laser bring presnet. The SX is actually similar, but the PLL is on the DC cotroller board (I think it's a separate chip, not in the gate array, but In would have to check the schematics). Again it takes the feedback from an FG coil in the motor assembly (IIRC a wiggly track on the motor PCB) [] The PLL chip, at least the one used in the CX (and IIRC it's used there both in the scanner motor controller and the main motor controller) was designed for use in record player turntables (phonographs?). According to the data sheet, one of the pins is called '33/45' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 30 15:10:02 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:10:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C2AE2E2.6000901@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 30, 10 07:23:30 am Message-ID: > > Well, working backwards from DPI and print speed gives about 3MHz dot > > clock: > > > > 300DPI * 11 inches (paper height) * 3ppm = 9900 lines per minute > > (thus, the line rate is 9900Hz, or 9.9kHz) > > 9900lpm * 300 dots per line = 2.97e6 > > (thus, the pixel rate is 2.97MHz) > > Am I missing something, or is that too low by a factor of about 8 or 9 > (the number of inches along a line)? It's somewhere in the region of > 24MHz, surely. Ouch!, I missed that last night. You are correct I think. Certainly the CX interface for the PERQ uses a 29.8MHz crystal oscillator to produce the bit clock (and I don;t think it's divided down). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 30 14:56:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 20:56:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jun 29, 10 02:45:49 pm Message-ID: > > Setting up a (CX engine) scanner from scratch was 'fun' too :-). It's an= > =20 > > IR laser so you can=3B't see the beam. I was tracing it through the optic= > al=20 > > bits with an IR remote control tester :-). > >=20 > Hi > Although=2C I've not tried this=2C it was mentioned that most digital came= > ras > have some sensitivity to IR ( even though they have filters to block most )= Yes, Most semiconductior sensors, such as CCDs, respond to near-IR. I am told you can 'see' most remote cotnrol outputs using one, for examplke. > . > One should be able to check things by using a digital camera to view with. Quite likely. The problem is that it was _me_ who was setting up this CX laser scanner module, and I am sure you know by now the sort of cameras I have :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 30 15:23:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:23:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: <4C2B8486.5050703@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 30, 10 06:53:10 pm Message-ID: > > The origian laser controller was on/off only (but not a simple design due > > to the speed reuired). > > Thankfully fast opamps aren't as rare as they used to be. Fast MOSFETS > moreso :) No, but fast op-amps have this habit of turning into oscillators (== adio transmitters) if you look at them wrong. Layout, decoupling, ground planes, careful design of the feedback network, etc are not optional. > > > There was a DAC (IIRC discrete resistors in the > > SX engine) to steh laser diode current, > > It was current-regulated? That's an odd choice if you're going to switch Of course. The laser current is critical. Too low and it doesn't lase. Too high and it never lases again!. Within that range it had to be set according to the sensitivity of the drum. > a diode on and off at ~20MHz. Would have thought the current regulation > loop would have had kittens every time the current was turned off, and > put a current spike through the diode at every off-to-on transition > (unless it was (*really* carefully designed). It was cerefully designed (I did say it was complicated). IIRC it switched the current source between the laser diode and a dummy load accordinmg to the state of the drive input. It had to work at nearly 30MHz. And BTW, overshoot on the drive currend will do nasty things to the laser diode! > > Would uofficial scheamtics of the SX engine be any use? That's _unofficial_ of course... > > If they include schematics of the laser driver and scanner motor driver? > Hell yeah. Includes every part of the printer. Even the PSU and EHT block. I will see what I can do. > > Not AFAIK (or at least the CX enginer controllers I've worked on don't). > > The motor speed is controlled by a PLL-tpye thing (the chip on the motor > > PCB in the scanner unit, with an 'FG' coil on the PCB). Any slight errors > > in the bir rate would slightly cheange the size of the printout, but who > > actually checks that (rememebr a crystal almost certainly better than 1 > > part in 1000, so the erors will not be large). > > Right, so it's locking the motor off of the incoming bit stream? When No. The motor runs a a constant speed (controlled by the PLL taking the feedback from the FG coil in the motor). The bistream runs at any speed you like (within reason), controlled by a crystal on the formatter board (or the VDO interface, or ...) The motor will ru at the right speed even if the rest of the machine is malfunctiuoing. The CX makes this a bit clearer. since the motor controller for that is a separate PCB on the bottom of the scanner module. It has (IIRC) 4 connecitons --power, ground, motor on/off and an 'up to speed' feedback signal. > you explain it like that, it makes far more sense than locking the > driver off of the motor. > > > I think the PERQ scheamtics books are on bitsavers. Take a look at the > > OIO board schematics, you should find a CX-VDO printer interface there. > > Agian I shouldbe able to provide details of the state machine ROMs, etc. > > I think I've found it... PERQ T2 schematics, volume 2. The PERQ 1A Sounds right. > schematic set doesn't seem to include the OIO board, but there's a Canon > LBP-only OIO board for the T2. The OIO boards fit all classic PERQs (it's the only board that is totally universal like that). AFAIK the 3 OIO versions (ethernet, cannon, etherent and canon) were all built on the same PCB, with just different ICs missing. > > I had a quick look at the PCB photos too... I've never seen anything > quite like them. What are they, wire-on-epoxy? They look like someone Some of the prototypes/early ones were. But AFAIK all later PERQ boards were notmal PCBs. Certainly every OIO I've seen has been a normal PCB. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 30 15:40:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 13:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100630133420.S66773@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, Most semiconductior sensors, such as CCDs, respond to near-IR. I am > told you can 'see' most remote cotnrol outputs using one, for examplke. > > One should be able to check things by using a digital camera to view with. > Quite likely. The problem is that it was _me_ who was setting up this CX > laser scanner module, and I am sure you know by now the sort of cameras I > have :-) Is Ektachrome IR no longer available? (~35 years since I used any) Although E6 is the recommended processing, it can work with a lot of stuff, even C41 to produce an unmasked negative. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Jun 30 16:56:03 2010 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 14:56:03 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2B7DAF.5070408@brouhaha.com> References: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> <4C2B7DAF.5070408@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C2BBD73.20805@mindspring.com> On 6/30/2010 10:23 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Another way to name them would perhaps be: >> >> KB11-B - Old 11/70 CPU with synch FPP. >> KB11-C - New 11/70 CPU with asynch FPP. >> KB11-CM - MP modified KB11-C >> KB11-E(?) - The new 11/74 CPU with asynch FPP and CIS. >> >> I seem to remember reading somewhere that the 11/74 CPU were to be >> called KB11-E, but I also have this nagging feeling that KB11-E might >> have been the 11/44, or possibly the 11/60. > > The 11/44 CPU was a KD11-Z. The 11/60 CPU was a KD11-K. Correct. 11/74 was the KB11-E. 11/45 was the KB11-A, 11/55 was the KB11-D, just to complete the table. > >> Now, as I myself pointed out, RSX regards the 11/70mP as an 11/74, >> and that is also what the CPU identification code in RSX calls it. > > Since the 11/70mp and 11/74 were never official products, there was a > lot of conflation of the designations. Without the optional CIS, > software can't easily distinguish an 11/70mp from an 11/74, so it > probably simply didn't bother to try. Thus whether software reports > the CPU as an 11/70mp or an 11/74 doesn't really prove much of anything. I believe s/w could have examined PSW<8> the 'CIS Instruction Suspended' bit in the KB11-E w/o the CIS option installed, and it could have set that bit to a one, whereas in the 11/70 that bit would have been locked at zero. > >> But if we call this an 11/74, what shall we call the 11/70 with CIS? > > Fantasy? There wasn't such a thing, since there wasn't an 11/70 with > a KB11-E CPU that was necessary to accomodate the KE74-A CIS. Correct. The only backplane that could accept the KE74-A CIS option was the '11/74' KB11-E backplane. > > Eric > > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Jun 30 17:10:58 2010 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:10:58 +0100 Subject: 360/30 in FPGA (Was: Re: photos from VCF UK) In-Reply-To: <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> References: <1277041888.3640.3.camel@voltaire.home.net> <20100620213201.GA87754@plum.flirble.org> <2120C75B-47E3-4A41-BD19-12FF95E29FB0@mewgull.com> <4C1F3D95.8050706@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4C1F4702.6040502@mac.com> <4C1FAE9D.5020409@neurotica.com> <1277149567.5427.23.camel@entasis> Message-ID: <1277935858.15158.64.camel@entasis> On Mon, 2010-06-21 at 20:46 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Mon, 2010-06-21 at 14:25 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 6/21/10 7:03 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: > > > I quite fancy an IBM 360 / 30 FPGA board now i know a little about big > > > iron! > > > > Urr? Is someone working on that? > > Ah, yes. VCF was its debut. I haven't got a page up yet, but you can > see Andrew's photo at: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/carrierdetect/4718559358/ > > Basically, it's a 1000K gate Spartan 3 which contains the microcode > store (2k x 55) and 8k x 9 of main memory. Front panel switches are > physical rotaries and pushbuttons; blinkenlights are via a VGA display > for now. > > Right now it fails the microcode startup diagnostics with a main memory > parity error, probably due to a race condition somewhere (the > memory /used/ to work). > Ok, diagnostics complete ok and I'm on to getting it to run a program. Basic execution and single-instruction-stepping works. Just fixed a VHDL problem related to RX opcode handling, but from now on the majority of problems are likely to be microcode-related. The main memory problem turned out to be the main clock too slow by a factor of 4. The memory runs asynchronously relative to the CPU, and it had the correct timing, so it was effectively responding in a quarter of the normal access time which messed things up. Happy Happy Joy Joy. If anyone has a Digilent Spartan3 board and would like to play with it, I can try to come up with a configuration that will work without external switches. You won't be able to do much! -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 30 17:28:14 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 18:28:14 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2B90F0.90704@verizon.net> References: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> <4C2B90F0.90704@verizon.net> Message-ID: > ... and it was a faster number cruncher than VAX-11/780. > The VAX had higher potential as the new reigning super minicomputer. ?It > wasn't long after that I'd seen a VAX-11/782, 785 and VAXclusters. I have to think that these later VAX machines and clusters were certainly well in motion, even if unannounced, by the time this whole 11/70mp / 11/74 project came out. In a business perspective, it makes a lot of sense why these weird-11s were not marketed. I know almost nothing technically about these, so I ask - were these multi-processor machines testbeds for ideas later seen (or not) in other machines? Were they pet projects (DECBob)? -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 30 09:22:54 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 11:22:54 -0300 Subject: Literature request: Tektronix DM501 (not A) service manual References: <07e201cb173b$67a92a00$6501a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <07cd01cb18a7$57c3dcd0$6501a8c0@portajara> > You might try this list: > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/TekScopes/?yguid=213948722 Thanks Paxton, this was the first place I looked for :) I already got the manual, thanks! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jun 30 20:01:55 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 20:01:55 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) Message-ID: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com> I rescued one of these ancient Bernoulli boxes today. It uses the large (8") cartridges at 20MB each, and it has two slots for the cartridges. Other than for hearing some of the folklore about the drives, I don't know much about it. I'd like to see it run and be usable, but I need some help. - Is it SCSI? If so, what's the pinout on the back? It has a 37 pin female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI. - Where is the head mechanism? Is it fairly robust and protected if there are no cartridges inserted? This one has no major dents, but it has not been babied either. I don't want to waste time on it if it's just going to be a heartache. (I have enough of that already.) - Cartridges look like they are on eBay. They are cheap enough for me to experiment with. - Is there anything I should know about these beasts before I attempt powering on and working with it? Thanks, Mike From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 30 20:17:23 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 18:17:23 -0700 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2B90F0.90704@verizon.net> References: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> <4C2B90F0.90704@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4C2BECA3.10106@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > It was my understanding that the 11/70 continued as a grandfathered > EMI and the new multiple cpu died due to EMI issues (plethora of cables > and multiple racks) and [...] That sounds *much* more plausible than the problem being that the flat cables were a maintenance/serviceability issue, as has often been reported. Of course, with enough effort, they could have solved the problem, but likely didn't want to for theother reasons you mentioned. Eric From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jun 30 20:43:51 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:43:51 -0400 Subject: yet another pdp-11 in fgpa In-Reply-To: <4C2BECA3.10106@brouhaha.com> References: <4C2B624E.9060006@softjar.se> <4C2B90F0.90704@verizon.net> <4C2BECA3.10106@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4C2BF2D7.8010103@verizon.net> On 06/30/2010 09:17 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > allison wrote: >> It was my understanding that the 11/70 continued as a grandfathered >> EMI and the new multiple cpu died due to EMI issues (plethora of cables >> and multiple racks) and [...] > > That sounds *much* more plausible than the problem being that the flat > cables were a maintenance/serviceability issue, as has often been > reported. > They were but, changing it meant making the grandfathering a problem. There were far to many cables that could easily be swapped and cause a failure or more commonly a no run case till it was sorted out. Around that time a New engineering group CSSE wich was part of Central engineering but funded by filed service was in existence to solve manufacturing quality and field maintainability issues. That was spawned by FA&T (factory assemble and test) because supposedly interchangeable parts weren't so and systems would not work in the field (early 70s). So the cable issue was very real but it was not the sole reason. > Of course, with enough effort, they could have solved the problem, but > likely didn't want to for theother reasons you mentioned. > Therein lies the problem, FCC rules of the time meant if you redesign it your committed to "fix" the RFI issue. That meant only ECOs and retrofitable options. The VAX and later PDP-11 machines shows that packaging impact. Also for those that were in DEC there was always a bit of a split in product groups where some wanted to keep tweaking the design for cost and speed and those that wanted a whole new challenge and direction. Some of that shows in the various ways the PDP-8 and PDP11 were implemented over the years. Just trying to keep up with that was a experience. My years in DEC engineering were among the best in my career. Allison > Eric > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 30 20:52:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 18:52:30 -0700 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com> References: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jun 2010 at 20:01, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > - Is it SCSI? If so, what's the pinout on the back? It has a 37 pin > female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI. Yes, it is. The Iomega PC2 SCSI adapter has a DC37M on the bracket. I believe the pinout is the old Novell SCSI one: http://sysdoc.doors.ch/BLACKBOX/17972.PDF > - Where is the head mechanism? Is it fairly robust and protected if > there are no cartridges inserted? This one has no major dents, but it > has not been babied either. I don't want to waste time on it if it's > just going to be a heartache. (I have enough of that already.) I like the old Bernoulli boxes very much. Because of the physics of the thing (Bernoulli's principle), the disks were pretty much uncrashable. You can demonstrate the principle for yourself by taking a playing card (or other semi-stiff card) and a common thread spool. Push a pin through the middle of the card and insert the pin into the hole in the center of the spool (the pin simply keeps the card centered). Now with the card against the spool, blow through the spool as hard as you can. You'd think that the card would be blown off, but it isn't--it floats against the spool on a thin cushion of air. Ah-ha! so if we substitute a disk for the card and a flat plate with a head embedded in the surface, we have a crashproof drive! The other upside is that the whole affair is at a positive pressure to the atmosphere and so is self-purging. Great stuff and very much unlike the Zip and Jaz abominations. The early (5MB and 20MB) Bernoullis used a somewhat oversimplified SCSI command set. I've never tried one on a late SCSI controller, but it should work. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 30 20:59:30 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 02:59:30 +0100 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com> <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 1 July 2010 02:52, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jun 2010 at 20:01, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> - Is it SCSI? ?If so, what's the pinout on the back? ?It has a 37 pin >> female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI. > > Yes, it is. ?The Iomega PC2 SCSI adapter has a DC37M on the bracket. > I believe the pinout is the old Novell SCSI one: > > http://sysdoc.doors.ch/BLACKBOX/17972.PDF > >> - Where is the head mechanism? ?Is it fairly robust and protected if >> there are no cartridges inserted? ?This one has no major dents, but it >> has not been babied either. ?I don't want to waste time on it if it's >> just going to be a heartache. ?(I have enough of that already.) > > I like the old Bernoulli boxes very much. ?Because of the physics of > the thing (Bernoulli's principle), the disks were pretty much > uncrashable. > > You can demonstrate the principle for yourself by taking a playing > card (or other semi-stiff card) and a common thread spool. ?Push a > pin through the middle of the card and insert the pin into the hole > in the center of the spool (the pin simply keeps the card centered). > Now with the card against the spool, blow through the spool as hard > as you can. ?You'd think that the card would be blown off, but it > isn't--it floats against the spool on a thin cushion of air. > > Ah-ha! ?so if we substitute a disk for the card and a flat plate with > a head embedded in the surface, we have a crashproof drive! > > The other upside is that the whole affair is at a positive pressure > to the atmosphere and so is self-purging. > > Great stuff and very much unlike the Zip and Jaz abominations. > > The early (5MB and 20MB) Bernoullis used a somewhat oversimplified > SCSI command set. ?I've never tried one on a late SCSI controller, > but it should work. If anyone has a hankering for a Bernouilli Box, I think I have 1 or 2 of the 5?" models gathering dust in the garage. Free for the cost of postage. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jun 30 21:58:51 2010 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 21:58:51 -0500 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4C2BE903.5010004@brutman.com> <4C2B926E.31309.2744EFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4C2C046B.5090108@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jun 2010 at 20:01, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> - Is it SCSI? If so, what's the pinout on the back? It has a 37 pin >> female connector that I'm not familiar with if it is SCSI. > > Yes, it is. The Iomega PC2 SCSI adapter has a DC37M on the bracket. > I believe the pinout is the old Novell SCSI one: > > http://sysdoc.doors.ch/BLACKBOX/17972.PDF Ok, good news so far then. I've never encountered the DC37M on SCSI before so I have to find a cable or an adapter. All of my other SCSI gear uses the Mac connectors (25 pin) or Centronics, so I'm stuck for a bit until I find a source. (Or learn how to make a proper cable.) >> - Where is the head mechanism? Is it fairly robust and protected if >> there are no cartridges inserted? This one has no major dents, but it >> has not been babied either. I don't want to waste time on it if it's >> just going to be a heartache. (I have enough of that already.) > > I like the old Bernoulli boxes very much. Because of the physics of > the thing (Bernoulli's principle), the disks were pretty much > uncrashable. > > You can demonstrate the principle for yourself by taking a playing > card (or other semi-stiff card) and a common thread spool. Push a > pin through the middle of the card and insert the pin into the hole > in the center of the spool (the pin simply keeps the card centered). > Now with the card against the spool, blow through the spool as hard > as you can. You'd think that the card would be blown off, but it > isn't--it floats against the spool on a thin cushion of air. > > Ah-ha! so if we substitute a disk for the card and a flat plate with > a head embedded in the surface, we have a crashproof drive! > > The other upside is that the whole affair is at a positive pressure > to the atmosphere and so is self-purging. > > Great stuff and very much unlike the Zip and Jaz abominations. > > The early (5MB and 20MB) Bernoullis used a somewhat oversimplified > SCSI command set. I've never tried one on a late SCSI controller, > but it should work. > > --Chuck The giant filter on the back confirms that it uses a lot of air. :-) I like my Zip drives though - I've been lucky and have not had the click of death. They are great for vintage machines - parallel port versions for the PCs, and SCSI for anything else. Mike From evan at snarc.net Wed Jun 30 22:39:28 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 23:39:28 -0400 Subject: Knuth In-Reply-To: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> References: <4C2AE332.6090301@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4C2C0DF0.9080206@snarc.net> > I'm sure you all read Slashdot, but just in case not: "Knuth Plans > 'Earthshaking Announcement'" > > http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/06/29/2233219/Knuth-Plans-Earthshaking-Announcement-Wednesday Had anyone heard what his announcement is ... ? From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Jun 30 17:47:13 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 17:47:13 -0500 Subject: (OT) Laserjet III laser scanner module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C2BC971.1060708@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Setting up a (CX engine) scanner from scratch was 'fun' too :-). It's an= >> =20 >>> IR laser so you can=3B't see the beam. I was tracing it through the optic= >> al=20 >>> bits with an IR remote control tester :-). >>> =20 > >> Hi >> Although=2C I've not tried this=2C it was mentioned that most digital came= >> ras >> have some sensitivity to IR ( even though they have filters to block most )= > > Yes, Most semiconductior sensors, such as CCDs, respond to near-IR. I am > told you can 'see' most remote cotnrol outputs using one, for examplke. Yes, you can. Also, IR item presence detectors in the paper handling equipment I sometimes work with. A small digital camera can be a very handy diagnostic instrument at times. Of course one could build something much simpler and smaller using not very many components which would serve as well or better. Actually probably quite a lot better as the sensor could be much smaller and able to be gotten into tight spots. I've thought of doing that several times but just never got around tuit. Later, Charlie C. > >> . >> One should be able to check things by using a digital camera to view with. > > Quite likely. The problem is that it was _me_ who was setting up this CX > laser scanner module, and I am sure you know by now the sort of cameras I > have :-) > > -tony >