From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 1 00:27:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 22:27:26 -0700 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <20100331215042.B27295@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20100331215042.B27295@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BB3CC4E.19548.2DDD2B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Mar 2010 at 21:54, Fred Cisin wrote: > Then the far edge of the card shows up at the wrong time, and the > reader generates a fault. Use to happen (rarely) with the IBM card > readers. The CDC 405 uses two rows of photodiodes and compares the read reslts as the card moves through. If the card slips, a read compare results. Two photodiodes are used at the front of the read station, positioned between rows. As the card edge moves through, the first diode, then the second diode is interrupted. If this doesn't happen, a fault is generated. Although the card feed is performed with a vacuum capstan, which always has vacuum applied (unlike the capstans in the 6xx tape drives) , pinch rollers move the card through the read station. Watching the thing read at 1200 cards per minute is pretty impressive. Another aspect that's interesting is that the top and bottom of the read station throat are wider than the middle section to accomodate dog-eared cards. --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 1 01:27:25 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 01:27:25 -0500 Subject: Pre-1980 DEC Technical Reports/Memoranda? In-Reply-To: <1269956504.3084.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1269956504.3084.54.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: > Subject: Pre-1980 DEC Technical Reports/Memoranda? > From: rdbrown at pacific.net.au > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 00:41:44 +1100 > > Where would DEC Technical Reports prior to 1980 would be found - on the > web? > The following reference is one I've never sighted, thought it was > referenced (as unsighted in Ross William's 1993 Painless guide to CRC > posting). > > Wecker, S (1974). "A Table-Lookup Algorithm for Software Computation of > Cyclic Redundancy Check (CRC)". Digital Equipment Corporation > memorandum. > > or > > Wecker, S., "A Table-Lookup Algorithm for Software Computation of Cyclic > Redundancy Check," > Technical Note, Digital Equipment Corporation, January 1974. > > HP has "heritage" DEC/Compaq Technical Reports 1981-2002 at > http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/ > but not earlier ones it seems. > > Google books and scholar show references to the paper, other papers and > a book by Stuart Wecker in the 1970-80 period, but don't seem to give > links to DEC Technical reports or memoranda prior to 1980. > Google groups showed some people reminiscing about using the Stuart > Weckers algorithm in comp.lang.lisp. > > I didn't see anything relevant in WorldCat or searching the Computer > History Museum collection, nor from a quick glance at BitSavers. > > Suggestions or just ask HP? > > > > Is Gordon Bell of use to you? http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/Digital/DECMuseum.htm Randy _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/210850552/direct/01/ From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Apr 1 02:17:38 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 00:17:38 -0700 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: References: <20100331215042.B27295@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 9:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) On Apr 1, 2010, at 12:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> The way my reader (A Documation >>> M200) does it is to move the card at constant speed using known-diamter >>> rollers, then to detect the leading edge of the card (basically when the >>> optical sensors g form all on to all off, then use that to produce an >>> internal clock signal that should align with the centres of the columns >>> (if you see what I mean) and us that to strobe the read logic. >> >> What if the card slips? > > Then the far edge of the card shows up at the wrong time, and the reader > generates a fault. Use to happen (rarely) with the IBM card readers. Ahhhhhh I see. Can they re-feed, or would that be the operator's responsibility? (I've never used a real IBM card reader) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------ And here's where engineering meets theory. As I've read this thread, I can grok the very clever solution of knowing how the card is moving through the mechanism to compensate for the fact that we don't have data on the card that tells us how fast it's moving through the mechanism, as we have with paper tape (i.e. a self-clocking solution). Interestingly, the idea of a timing mechanism hosted on the medium itself never occurred to Herman Hollerith or his successors, which I guess speaks to their confidence in their engineering. The solution obviously worked, as decades of computing happened based on the physical Hollerith card (as distinguished from its philosophical successors of fixed-length records represented on tape or disk). "What if" is the hallmark of a good engineer, but the bane of a marketing person. :-) But when the marketing people drive the process, engineers evidently rise to the occasion. -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 1 10:02:31 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 08:02:31 -0700 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4BB45317.18129.E6C42@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2010 at 0:17, Ian King wrote: > Interestingly, the idea of a timing mechanism hosted on the medium > itself never occurred to Herman Hollerith or his successors, which I > guess speaks to their confidence in their engineering. Not necessarily. If you look at Hollerith's card reader, it read the entire card in parallel, using spring-loaded probes that would extend through the card holes and touch a pool of mercury. No need for clocking. Serial card reading came later when the card was not manually read. If you're going to automate card transport, then reading the card serially actually is easier. What was the proportion of readers that read colum-serial versus row- serial? I believe the CDC 415 punch had its read station as 80 brushes, reading the card just punched row-wise. --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 1 13:18:40 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:18:40 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE=3A_Reading_ancient_paper_digital_media_=28wa?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s_Re=3A_Hamurabi_Focal=09source=29?= Message-ID: <01CAD19D.EAC17CA0@MSE_D03> ----------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 08:02:31 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: RE: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) On 1 Apr 2010 at 0:17, Ian King wrote: > Interestingly, the idea of a timing mechanism hosted on the medium > itself never occurred to Herman Hollerith or his successors, which I > guess speaks to their confidence in their engineering. Not necessarily. If you look at Hollerith's card reader, it read the entire card in parallel, using spring-loaded probes that would extend through the card holes and touch a pool of mercury. No need for clocking. Serial card reading came later when the card was not manually read. If you're going to automate card transport, then reading the card serially actually is easier. What was the proportion of readers that read colum-serial versus row- serial? I believe the CDC 415 punch had its read station as 80 brushes, reading the card just punched row-wise. --Chuck --------------------Reply: As a matter of fact reading the card 'sideways' was a basic principle of the electro-mechanical punched card systems that (along with card sales) were IBM's bread and butter until the mid-sixties. With the exception of keypunches, paper tape converters etc. these machines were 'clocked' through the 12 states (12,11,0-9); the (firmly clamped) cards and various gears, relays, punches, type bars, etc. were cycled through these 12 states in synchronized parallel unison, much like most of the manual 'posting machines' with full row and column keyboards that preceded and coexisted with them. Timing diagrams looked much like the diagrams we're familiar with, but they were usually calibrated in degrees of rotation of the master camshaft instead of time. Interesting to compare not only the architectures of then vs. now, but the overall systems; a room full of various machines would be more or less the equivalent of a fairly simple micro, each machine (and operator in some cases) would be a programming algorithm or an IC, the data path would be an actual real well-worn path where cards would be carried from one machine to the next in the processing sequence, patch boards would be EPROMs, etc. etc. The hardware and documentation may be preserved, but I suspect the design of the actual application systems, i.e. 'programs' where procedures are in fact different physical machines, is becoming a lost art. From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 1 13:25:16 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:25:16 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_Reading_ancient_paper_digital_media_=28wa?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?s_Re=3A_Hamurabi_Focal=09source=29?= Message-ID: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 22:27:26 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) >Watching the thing read at 1200 cards per minute is pretty impressive. --Chuck ------------Reply: Watching one *jam* at 1200 cards per minute is even more impressive, especially if the sensors are dirty or misadjusted (and *especially* if you have to recreate the damaged cards manually)... mike From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Apr 1 13:34:43 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 13:34:43 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 80, Issue 1 Message-ID: <01CAD1A0.17CC06A0@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Message: 27 Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 00:39:06 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) > The way my reader (A Documation > M200) does it is to move the card at constant speed using known-diamter > rollers, then to detect the leading edge of the card (basically when the > optical sensors g form all on to all off, then use that to produce an > internal clock signal that should align with the centres of the columns > (if you see what I mean) and us that to strobe the read logic. What if the card slips? -Dave --------------Reply: Some readers used a blade that caught the edge of the card and pushed it through just as the parallel-read IBM EAMs had done in the old days; no problem with slippage, it either fed correctly or jammed. mike From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 1 12:47:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 10:47:28 -0700 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <01CAD19D.EAC17CA0@MSE_D03> References: <01CAD19D.EAC17CA0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4BB479C0.23764.A5701C@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2010 at 13:18, M H Stein wrote: >> As a matter of fact reading the card 'sideways' was a basic principle > of the electro-mechanical punched card systems that (along with card > sales) were IBM's bread and butter until the mid-sixties. Now that I think of it, all of the earlier IBM equipment, with the exception of card punches, were fed long-edge on, right from all of the unit (sorters, 407 accounting machine, 519 reproducing punch) record equipment, through peripheral card readers, such as the 1402 and 1622. But the 2501, ISTR was "short edge on"--or at least that was the way the cards were ejected into the stacker. I imagine that "long edge on" helped greatly to improve the throughput at the expense of greater complexity. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 13:01:41 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:01:41 -0400 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On 4/1/10, M H Stein wrote: >>Watching the thing read at 1200 cards per minute is pretty impressive. > > Watching one *jam* at 1200 cards per minute is even more impressive, > especially if the sensors are dirty or misadjusted (and *especially* if you > have to recreate the damaged cards manually)... Two words: lace card. *ducks* -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 1 13:42:39 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 11:42:39 -0700 Subject: Documation card readers (was Re: cctech Digest, Vol 80, Issue 1) In-Reply-To: <01CAD1A0.17CC06A0@MSE_D03> References: <01CAD1A0.17CC06A0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4BB4E91F.5020809@bitsavers.org> On 4/1/10 11:34 AM, M H Stein wrote: > What if the card slips? > It gets an error. I've never seen that happen. They only seem to jam at the pick gate on the units I use. There is not a single wheel, it is a series of them along the entire card path. Epic fail when the rubber wheels age and turn to goo. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Apr 1 13:49:56 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Documation card readers (was Re: cctech Digest, Vol 80, Issue 1) In-Reply-To: <4BB4E91F.5020809@bitsavers.org> References: <01CAD1A0.17CC06A0@MSE_D03> <4BB4E91F.5020809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > It gets an error. I've never seen that happen. They only seem to jam > at the pick gate on the units I use. There is not a single wheel, it > is a series of them along the entire card path. > > Epic fail when the rubber wheels age and turn to goo. Is there any consensus about how long this takes (goo)? Is it inevitable? I have an M1000L - it was still working as of last summer. The only jam I've had on it was when I tried to feed a warped deck that I didn't get flattened out sufficiently, and they jammed in the output hopper. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From evan at snarc.net Thu Apr 1 13:51:00 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:51:00 -0400 Subject: MARCH selling its entire minicomputer collection Message-ID: <4BB4EB14.8030104@snarc.net> Hi all, We in MARCH decided to sell off our minicomputers and refocus on newer PC/WinTel history. Here are some starting prices: - Straight-8 - $10,000 - PDP-11/20 - $5,000 - IBM System/3 - $3,000 - IBM System/38 - $2,500 As for our Univac 1219, we just plan to scrap it. Happy April 1. :) From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Apr 1 14:03:49 2010 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:03:49 -0700 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media In-Reply-To: <4BB479C0.23764.A5701C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01CAD19D.EAC17CA0@MSE_D03> <4BB479C0.23764.A5701C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 10:47 AM > On 1 Apr 2010 at 13:18, M H Stein wrote: >> As a matter of fact reading the card 'sideways' was a basic principle >> of the electro-mechanical punched card systems that (along with card >> sales) were IBM's bread and butter until the mid-sixties. > Now that I think of it, all of the earlier IBM equipment, with the > exception of card punches, were fed long-edge on, right from all of > the unit (sorters, 407 accounting machine, 519 reproducing punch) > record equipment, through peripheral card readers, such as the 1402 > and 1622. But the 2501, ISTR was "short edge on"--or at least that > was the way the cards were ejected into the stacker. > I imagine that "long edge on" helped greatly to improve the > throughput at the expense of greater complexity. And thus the ancient IBMer joke that Thomas Watson Sr. was buried "face down, 9-edge first". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 1 14:14:53 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <4BB45317.18129.E6C42@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4BB45317.18129.E6C42@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100401120946.V50481@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What was the proportion of readers that read colum-serial versus row- > serial? I believe the CDC 415 punch had its read station as 80 > brushes, reading the card just punched row-wise. It is it character based device or a record device? 026, 029, etc. would obviously read a column at a time (12 brushes). 084, etc. would read a row at a time, even though they were only reading one column (one brush). But, if there would be no processing of the data until it was all read, obviously 80 brushes and a short path would be faster than 12 brushes and a long path. From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 1 14:24:29 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:24:29 +0200 Subject: MARCH selling its entire minicomputer collection In-Reply-To: <4BB4EB14.8030104@snarc.net> References: <4BB4EB14.8030104@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4BB4F2ED.2040207@hachti.de> Ahhhhhhh! > Happy April 1. :) I nearly replied seriously......! Currently many people are really selling off their collections. Perhaps due to the economic situation. So only the part on scrapping the Univac sounded like April 1st...! BTW I'm currently really selling on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385491200 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 1 14:30:32 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 12:30:32 -0700 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2010 at 13:25, M H Stein wrote: > Watching one *jam* at 1200 cards per minute is even more impressive, > especially if the sensors are dirty or misadjusted (and *especially* > if you have to recreate the damaged cards manually)... In the years of using a 405, I remember precious few card mishaps. The COMSOURCE personnel were far more likely to dump your card trays on the floor when their cart hit a filler strip But you're right, when they happened, they were spectacular. Multiple "accordion pleated" cards after the one causing the problem. In many, many boxes of cards, I don't think I ever irretrievably lost a card in a 405, however. The pleated cards could still be fed through a keypunch for duping. The third-party slow-speed card readers used for Export/Import terminals were far more mangle-prone, in my experience. The 405 apparently could also take "short" 52-column cards at 1600 cpm also. I don't think I've ever seen such a card. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 1 14:33:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 12:33:10 -0700 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <20100401120946.V50481@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4BB45317.18129.E6C42@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100401120946.V50481@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BB49286.28802.1063790@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Apr 2010 at 12:14, Fred Cisin wrote: > It is it character based device or a record device? > 026, 029, etc. would obviously read a column at a time (12 brushes). > 084, etc. would read a row at a time, even though they were only > reading one column (one brush). It's the 250 CPM punch usually hooked to CDC 3000 and 6000-series gear. Prone to fail in big punch jobs because of overheating. Punches a row at a time. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 1 14:50:20 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100401123719.D51602@shell.lmi.net> My father used to do a lot of consulting with CBS on Social Science Research. IBM was an active participant; sometimes TOO active. IBM did the entire computer work for the CBS "National Driver's Test" (1965?). When the live percentages didn't add up to 100%, on the TV, I could see my father sitting behind Walter Cronkite, frantically recomputing the numbers in time for Cronkite to read them. The next morning, my father, my brother, and I began studying FORTRAN. For one of the CBS studies, they actually distributed port-a-punch ("Hanging Chad") cards, and had the respondents drop them in a mailbox! IBM did "something" with one of their card readers (slow-down?, enlarge the in-gate?) and successfully read almost all of the cards! I wish that I could have seen that! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 1 15:51:52 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:51:52 -0700 Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source)) In-Reply-To: <20100401123719.D51602@shell.lmi.net> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com> <20100401123719.D51602@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BB50768.9030403@bitsavers.org> On 4/1/10 12:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > ("Hanging Chad") There is no such thing. They are called 'chips'. They went into a "chip bucket". The name is documented in the service and users manuals for punched card (NOT "punch card") devices. Repeating incorrect information is not helpful. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 1 17:48:54 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:48:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MARCH selling its entire minicomputer collection In-Reply-To: <4BB4F2ED.2040207@hachti.de> References: <4BB4EB14.8030104@snarc.net> <4BB4F2ED.2040207@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20100401154736.K55106@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Ahhhhhhh! > > Happy April 1. :) > I nearly replied seriously......! > Currently many people are really selling off their collections. Perhaps > due to the economic situation. So only the part on scrapping the Univac > sounded like April 1st...! I was getting ready to offer them a Packard-Bell AND an E-machine in trade for the Univac. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 1 18:14:29 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 16:14:29 -0700 Subject: MARCH selling its entire minicomputer collection References: <4BB4EB14.8030104@snarc.net> <4BB4F2ED.2040207@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BB528D5.903FC4AC@cs.ubc.ca> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Ahhhhhhh! > > > Happy April 1. :) > > I nearly replied seriously......! > > Currently many people are really selling off their collections. Perhaps due to the economic > situation. So only the part on scrapping the Univac sounded like April 1st...! I admit to being taken in by the Bendix G-15 April Fool's joke on the list a few years ago, .. but the Univac scrapping this time was just too suspicious. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Apr 1 18:16:04 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:16:04 -0400 Subject: MARCH selling its entire minicomputer collection In-Reply-To: <20100401154736.K55106@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BB4EB14.8030104@snarc.net> <4BB4F2ED.2040207@hachti.de> <20100401154736.K55106@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > I was getting ready to offer them a Packard-Bell AND an E-machine in trade > for the Univac. Well...that *could* be a fair trade, actually. -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 1 15:41:57 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:41:57 +0100 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net><2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com><690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00eb01cad1f1$75cdb720$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 6:13 PM Subject: Re: Making Hard Sector Floppies > On Mar 31, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Rob wrote: > > Reminds me of an actual paper hole "punch" that I encountered at > > Ferranti back in my youth in the print room. We used to photo-copy > > compter manuals and transport them over to this beast. You could put > > a 2" or more high stack of paper on it, clamp it down, and have it > > *drill* through the stack at the relevant points for the ring binders. > > Beat feeding it three sheets at a time through the desktop punch! > > Yep, pretty cool. Paper drills are about as common as, oh, > printing presses in the printing industry. > Err... not that common. I have never heard of one of these before. Maybe it's down to where you work, or have worked. Excluding work experience, I have only had one job. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 1 15:58:40 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:58:40 +0100 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net>, <690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>, <20100331112953.F9071@shell.lmi.net> <4BB3467A.16385.D3102A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00ec01cad1f1$7740f630$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 8:56 PM Subject: Re: Making Hard Sector Floppies > > The SPA ran their "Don't Copy That Floppy" campaign well into the mid- > to-late 90s. Did anyone ever *really* pay $100K for owning a single > illegal copy of "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" as their ads > claimed? > > --Chuck > Hehe, I saw that advert recently on a quiz show. I have been meaning to see if someone had uploaded it to YouTube or any other video site I have some Carmen Sandiego games for the Amiga, but was never really able to get into them. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 1 18:32:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 19:32:11 -0400 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: <00eb01cad1f1$75cdb720$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net><2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com><690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca> <00eb01cad1f1$75cdb720$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <2173D871-5C98-488E-AD49-6B918A02841F@neurotica.com> On Apr 1, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >>> Reminds me of an actual paper hole "punch" that I encountered at >>> Ferranti back in my youth in the print room. We used to photo-copy >>> compter manuals and transport them over to this beast. You could put >>> a 2" or more high stack of paper on it, clamp it down, and have it >>> *drill* through the stack at the relevant points for the ring binders. >>> Beat feeding it three sheets at a time through the desktop punch! >> >> Yep, pretty cool. Paper drills are about as common as, oh, >> printing presses in the printing industry. >> > > Err... not that common. I have never heard of one of these before. Maybe > it's down to where you work, or have worked. Excluding work experience, I > have only had one job. I've never worked at a print shop, but I've done a lot of business with several of them in NJ, PA, MD, and FL. I'm pretty sure I've never seen a print shop that didn't have a paper drill. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 1 18:50:11 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 00:50:11 +0100 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net> <2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com> <690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BB53133.3050701@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/03/2010 18:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Mar 31, 2010, at 11:12 AM, Rob wrote: >> Reminds me of an actual paper hole "punch" that I encountered at >> Ferranti back in my youth in the print room. We used to photo-copy >> compter manuals and transport them over to this beast. > Yep, pretty cool. Paper drills are about as common as, oh, printing > presses in the printing industry. Hardly -- but about as common as guillotines or stitching machines, though. I used to have one, and I made a couple of replacement drills for one a friend had. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 1 19:21:53 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 20:21:53 -0400 Subject: any other pdp-8 simulators which will run tss/8 as pdp-8/i? In-Reply-To: <4BAEDD3E.6060506@hachti.de> (sfid-20100328_003950_468384_3C33A649) References: <4BAEDD3E.6060506@hachti.de> (sfid-20100328_003950_468384_3C33A649) Message-ID: <4BB538A1.10404@heeltoe.com> Does anyone know of any pdp-8 simulators, other than simh, which will run TSS/8? and, more specifically, which emulate an 8/I and not an 8/E? -brad From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 1 19:35:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 17:35:02 -0700 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: <4BB53133.3050701@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net>, , <4BB53133.3050701@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BB4D946.32302.21A9292@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2010 at 0:50, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Hardly -- but about as common as guillotines or stitching machines, > though. I used to have one, and I made a couple of replacement drills > for one a friend had. We'd frequently get documents that were copies of original manuals and it wouldn't be uncommon for them to run to several hundred pages. Rather than punching a few sheets at a time, we'd take them down to the local printer and they'd drill them for 3-ring binder use for us for a very small charge. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 2 01:51:49 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 23:51:49 -0700 Subject: MARCH selling its entire minicomputer collection In-Reply-To: <4BB4F2ED.2040207@hachti.de> References: <4BB4EB14.8030104@snarc.net>,<4BB4F2ED.2040207@hachti.de> Message-ID: Philipp, considering how many people tried to figure out just what machine was in the background of the recent Onion spoof, I don't think you should feel bad. :-) Geeks are us -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann [hachti at hachti.de] Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 12:24 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: MARCH selling its entire minicomputer collection Ahhhhhhh! > Happy April 1. :) I nearly replied seriously......! Currently many people are really selling off their collections. Perhaps due to the economic situation. So only the part on scrapping the Univac sounded like April 1st...! BTW I'm currently really selling on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385491200 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Fri Apr 2 01:15:23 2010 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 17:15:23 +1100 Subject: Classic Computers to see in Bristol UK and South Wales Message-ID: I'm going to be over in the UK, based in Bristol and then South Wales for the last two weeks of April. Any recommendations of classic computer visits in the area would be appreciated. I'm mainly a DEC sort of person but will push the limits if required :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From iiju2000 at yahoo.co.kr Fri Apr 2 01:23:36 2010 From: iiju2000 at yahoo.co.kr (Park Iiju) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:23:36 +0900 (KST) Subject: HP200LX, e-text and vertical reader Message-ID: <790192.46801.qm@web70801.mail.kr3.yahoo.com> Hello Bob, I'm a 200lx user from Korea. While I was searching for a HORIZONTAL READER for 200lx, luckily I'v come across your message which was written more than 1 year ago. Will you please send me a copy of your reader program and source code? I appreciate it. Thank you Kyung. From philpem at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 2 03:04:24 2010 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:04:24 +0100 Subject: AP: MITS Altair pioneer dies age 68 Message-ID: <4BB5A508.1060102@philpem.me.uk> Heard this on Radio 2 this morning, but it doesn't seem to be on the BBC News website... http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i88Z-XwxRcgbBtP_lHW_DJqyo5ogD9EQKQJO4 > ATLANTA ? Dr. Henry Edward Roberts, a developer of an early personal > computer that inspired Bill Gates to found Microsoft, died Thursday > in Georgia. He was 68. > > Roberts, whose build-it-yourself kit concentrated thousands of > dollars worth of computer capability in an affordable package, > inspired Bill Gates and his childhood friend Paul Allen to come up > with Microsoft in 1975 after they saw an article about the MITS > Altair 8800 in Popular Electronics. -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Fri Apr 2 03:40:18 2010 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 09:40:18 +0100 Subject: Classic Computers to see in Bristol UK and South Wales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1270197618.20194.38.camel@entasis> On Fri, 2010-04-02 at 17:15 +1100, Huw Davies wrote: > I'm going to be over in the UK, based in Bristol and then South Wales > for the last two weeks of April. > > Any recommendations of classic computer visits in the area would be > appreciated. I'm mainly a DEC sort of person but will push the limits > if required :-) There is the Museum of Computing in Swindon http://www.museumofcomputing.org.uk/ which isn't too far from Bristol (40 miles?); it's open Sat & Mon. I haven't been there, but I think it concentrates more on 'modern' microcomputer stuff ('70s onwards) - someone please correct me if I'm wrong here. And definitely not in the area, but at the right time: http://wickensonline.co.uk/declegacy/node I'm not sure if you've been to the UK before, but I would suggest you get to Bletchley Park and/or the Science Museum. Bristol to London is only 2 hours by train (though not cheap). Bletchley is a bit more complicated, but if you're interested then let me know and I can work something out. If you only go to one computer-related place, it should be Bletchley Park. http://www.tnmoc.org/ http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/ -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Apr 2 06:34:45 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:34:45 +0100 Subject: MITS Altair pioneer dies age 68 In-Reply-To: <4BB5A508.1060102@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <6532CEF7D37E4C6AA2C6037B36E6FB00@ANTONIOPC> Philip Pemberton [philpem at philpem.me.uk] wrote: > Heard this on Radio 2 this morning, but it doesn't seem to be > on the BBC > News website... > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i88Z-XwxRcgb > BtP_lHW_DJqyo5ogD9EQKQJO4 > ATLANTA - Dr. Henry Edward Roberts, a developer of an early personal > computer that inspired Bill Gates to found Microsoft, died Thursday > in Georgia. He was 68. > > Roberts, whose build-it-yourself kit concentrated thousands of dollars > worth of computer capability in an affordable package, inspired Bill > Gates and his childhood friend Paul Allen to come up with Microsoft in > 1975 after they saw an article about the MITS Altair 8800 in Popular > Electronics. It's on the Beeb's site now: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8600493.stm Antonio From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 09:11:42 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MITS Altair pioneer dies age 68 In-Reply-To: <6532CEF7D37E4C6AA2C6037B36E6FB00@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <508731.36755.qm@web113520.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Memorial on Digibarn http://www.digibarn.com/stories/MITS/index.html Story on CNET http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-20001616-56.html Story in NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/04/01/us/AP-US-Obit-Computer-Designer.html?_r=1 Story in Slashdot http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/10/04/02/0323223/Ed-Roberts-Personal-Computer-Pioneer-1941-2010 Story in Huffington Post http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/01/henry-edward-roberts-dead_n_522366.html From hachti at hachti.de Fri Apr 2 09:38:02 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:38:02 +0200 Subject: Servo tracks on SMD disk In-Reply-To: <313886392-1269930781-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1054415263-@bda2004.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> References: <313886392-1269930781-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1054415263-@bda2004.bisx.produk.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4BB6014A.2060006@hachti.de> Hi, > > I assuem it has worked since the crash. Could the heads have been damaged > by the crash? > Eh.... NO :-( Sorry for being unclear on that... :-( > > Hang on.. Are you saing the heads landed on the disk? And that the drive > hasn't worked properly since that? I really wonder if the heads have been > damaged. Yes, I'm saying that. But the problem with those packs was there before. I had only one or two really good packs. And now I have not one really perfectly working one. It *can* have to do with the heads. But I can imagine other issues as well. > > But there are differences. I don't think there's any oil-filled damper on > the Phoenix. Nothing oil-filled! It WAS a ring of rubber-like clear stuff. That has converted to something like the glue children use at the kindergarten... >>> Do you have schematics and a 'scope? >> Yes. But... Sorry for saying that: That machine has a very very low >> priority in my project queue as it's something from the 80s. I currently > > OK... Alas I suspect this is not going to be a quick fix. I've nearly completely decided to "quick-fix" it by giving away. Best wishes and thanks for the comments, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From marvin at west.net Fri Apr 2 09:58:24 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 07:58:24 -0700 Subject: Don't Copy That Floppy Message-ID: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net> Ah yes, I still have one of their "Don't Copy That Floppy" posters and I *think* the VHS tape that was part of that campaign. Must be worth millions by now :). > The SPA ran their "Don't Copy That Floppy" campaign well into the mid- > to-late 90s. Did anyone ever *really* pay $100K for owning a single > illegal copy of "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" as their ads > claimed? > > --Chuck > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 2 10:16:40 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't Copy That Floppy In-Reply-To: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net> References: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > Ah yes, I still have one of their "Don't Copy That Floppy" posters and I > *think* the VHS tape that was part of that campaign. Must be worth millions > by now :). > Post in on YouTube under the heading, "...but they didn't say don't copy this tape!" :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Apr 2 10:30:42 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:30:42 -0400 Subject: Don't Copy That Floppy In-Reply-To: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net> References: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net> Message-ID: <4BB60DA2.2080100@verizon.net> Marvin Johnston wrote: > > Ah yes, I still have one of their "Don't Copy That Floppy" posters and I > *think* the VHS tape that was part of that campaign. Must be worth > millions by now :). > > > > The SPA ran their "Don't Copy That Floppy" campaign well into the mid- > > to-late 90s. Did anyone ever *really* pay $100K for owning a single > > illegal copy of "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" as their ads > > claimed? > > > > --Chuck > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up863eQKGUI No matter how many times I rediscover this, it always cracks me up. It is funny, however, to see that piracy during the 80's didn't bring "the blank screen" and the "end of the computer age" as predicted in the video. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 2 10:58:10 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:58:10 -0700 Subject: Don't Copy That Floppy In-Reply-To: <4BB60DA2.2080100@verizon.net> References: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net>, <4BB60DA2.2080100@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BB5B1A2.16310.2BB833@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2010 at 11:30, Keith wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up863eQKGUI > > No matter how many times I rediscover this, it always cracks me up. It gives me a headache to see a lawyer trying to be a rapper. There is a sequel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUCyvw4w_yk Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 2 12:30:33 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:30:33 -0500 Subject: UCSD p-System hoard to disperse Message-ID: <201004021730.o32HUlkS077931@billY.EZWIND.NET> I've been contacted by a former software developer with extensive experience with the UCSD p-System on several platforms. He'd like to dispose of most of his equipment and documentation. I'd like to help him find a new home for it all. I'm not quite sure how to do that, but it might depend on who else is interested. Please contact me if you are. He is located in southern Illinois, USA. I am located in southern Wisconsin, about six hours away. I'd like his spare Terak 8510 system and a Cipher 9 track. There are two PDQ-3 systems. I am tempted to take one, as it is closely related to the Terak. These are LSI-11 with Western Digital microcode to run the p-System directly. They include 10 or 20 meg hard drives. They are circa 1982. I think they're rare. The only mention I find is on a UC-Irvine web page, although I've emailed with someone who worked at the company that made them (Advanced Computer Design?). One of the hard drives might contain some source code from ACD. He used these for software development. I've found references that say these systems were used to develop in Modula 2 and FORTRAN. They competed with the Sage. There's an Atari 1040 ST running the p-System. There are four or five 68000-based multitasking multiuser Pinnacle Systems (later Logic Process) systems. These drove 8 to 16 users on Wyse 50 terminals. They are circa 1983. One is the bigger unit with more horsepower and an internal tape drive. There's two Corvus Omninet drives, with various junction boxes, cabling and interface cards - perhaps for PC, Apple II and maybe Q-bus. There's a bunch of p-System books, newsletters, etc. as well as software. He was a USUS member. There's a VT 220 and several Wyse 50 terminals. I might want the 220. It sounds like there's lots of software going all the way back to a copy of Wirth's CDC compiler. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 2 13:45:49 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:45:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't Copy That Floppy In-Reply-To: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net> References: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net> Message-ID: <20100402114522.S89246@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Ah yes, I still have one of their "Don't Copy That Floppy" posters and I > *think* the VHS tape that was part of that campaign. Must be worth > millions by now :). That might depend on how hard it is to copy them, . . . From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 2 14:13:42 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:13:42 -0700 Subject: Don't Copy That Floppy In-Reply-To: <20100402114522.S89246@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net>, <20100402114522.S89246@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BB5DF76.12929.DEDEBF@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2010 at 11:45, Fred Cisin wrote: > That might depend on how hard it is to copy them, . . . The video contains permission by SPA to make copies for "educational" use--personally, I think the sound track eminently suited to psychological warfare and torture applications. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Apr 2 14:26:05 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: optical ADB mouse Message-ID: I'm pondering putting an optical pickup in an old ADB mouse for use with my Mac SE. I find lots of web pages describing making these old mice optical, but all of them involve turning the mice into USB mice. So, is anyone aware of an ADB mouse with an optical pickup? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 2 14:41:02 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: optical ADB mouse In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Apr 2, 10 12:26:05 pm" Message-ID: <201004021941.o32Jf2ex011626@floodgap.com> > I'm pondering putting an optical pickup in an old ADB mouse for use with > my Mac SE. I find lots of web pages describing making these old mice > optical, but all of them involve turning the mice into USB mice. So, is > anyone aware of an ADB mouse with an optical pickup? Didn't Kensington make one of these? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Garbage in -- gospel out" ------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 14:05:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:05:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hamurabi Focal source In-Reply-To: <20100331212412.GJ6972@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Mar 31, 10 04:24:12 pm Message-ID: > > I restored one of thoise a couple of years back -- or actually the -A > > version which has simpler electronics (but much the same functionality). > > I got the HP9800 interface for it (HP11202 Opt A01 IIRC) on E-bay. As you > > probably know the outputs of the 2748 are pilled up to 12V, but through > > 10k resisotrs, whcih means they will feed the 180R/390R-terminated TTL > > inputs of the 11202 with no prolems. Of course the -B model that you have > > has clamp diodes anyway so you can force the outputs to TTL levels by > > jumpering 2 pins on the connector. > > Indeed. I was a little worried about depending on that jumper (and the > associated connector pins) to ensure that the zener clamp would stay in THe -A model doesn't have the clamp diodes or jumper... HP connected the outputs of the 2748 stragiht into the TTL level inputs of a 11202 interface. The reson nothing got fried is that the 11202 has a 180 Ohm pull-up (to +5V) and a 390 Ohm pull-down (to ground) on each input while the output colelctor resistors in the 2748 (to +12V) are 10k. If you work it out, the votlage at the IC input is well within TTL specs. > place else fry my microcontroller. So, I put a front-end on the micro ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I might have guessed.... Mind you, when I wanted RS232 output from my 2748, I used a set-up with a few _hundred_ ICs... The fact that there was an HP9830 calculator involved has something to do with that... > using 26LS32 line receivers and accept the 12V levels directly or any > level above about a volt I guess. > > > What was wrong with yous? Mine had a bad mbearing in the magnetic clutch. > > T oreplace that I had to make special tools to press the clutch unit > > aprt and put it togetehr again. The ball race itself was a standard size > > and I had no problems getting one. Of course I also had to make the > > alignment mandrel to ge the clutch parts centred up wehn I put the motor > > unit back on. > > Wow. I was much more lucky. Mine had numerous burned out blubs in the Just after I got mine working, somebody listed on E-bay a 'DEC 2748 head'. It turend out to be the read head module for this reader. I bid on it, and fortunately nobody else was interested.... > illumination head and a bad transistor on one of the detector channels. > And it was pretty dirty inside. But, mechanically, I think I lucked out. > > > There are a few photos in my flickr account (tony_duell) of the internals > > of the read head and of taking the motor/clutch apart. > > Cool. I'll check it out. If you d oever take the read head apart, you will need a couple of alignment pis to get it back together. The reason is that the metal block that holds the photrasistors is not ground, it's connected to a supply rail (-5V IIRC). It therefoe sits on insulators. To gt everything alighed you put the alignment pins into a coule of blind holes inside the read head. slot on the insulator sheets, then the phototranssitor block, and then fit and tighten the 3 mouting screws (with insulating bushes). Then with everythinc clamped up you remvoe the pins. These pins are just 1" (or so) lengths of 1/8" diameter metal rod. A slight bevel on the end (trivial if you have access to a lathe) makes it slightly easier to assemble, but is not essential. There are pictures of this on flickr. And note this is not in any HP manual that I've seen... > Mine works real nice for reading these old tapes. I posted a thing to I still prefer the Trend USR and HSR readers with their self-setting read thresholds. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 2 14:45:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:45:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Servo tracks on SMD disk In-Reply-To: <4BB6014A.2060006@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Apr 2, 10 04:38:02 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > > > I assuem it has worked since the crash. Could the heads have been damaged > > by the crash? > > > Eh.... NO :-( Sorry for being unclear on that... :-( Err, 'No it's not worked sinde the crash' or 'No, the heads can't have been damaged' > > > > > Hang on.. Are you saing the heads landed on the disk? And that the drive > > hasn't worked properly since that? I really wonder if the heads have been > > damaged. > > Yes, I'm saying that. But the problem with those packs was there before. I had only one or two > really good packs. And now I have not one really perfectly working one. > It *can* have to do with the heads. But I can imagine other issues as well. OK, I think the only way forwards is to stop guessing and start making measurements. > > > > > But there are differences. I don't think there's any oil-filled damper on > > the Phoenix. > Nothing oil-filled! It WAS a ring of rubber-like clear stuff. That has converted to something like > the glue children use at the kindergarten... Oh, right. I know that problem well. Rubber rollers seem to like turnig to this sort of goo... I have seen an oiled damepr in some floppy drives (MPI IIRC), and I wondered if this swas something similar. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Apr 2 14:58:45 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: optical ADB mouse In-Reply-To: <201004021941.o32Jf2ex011626@floodgap.com> References: <201004021941.o32Jf2ex011626@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'm pondering putting an optical pickup in an old ADB mouse for use with >> my Mac SE. I find lots of web pages describing making these old mice >> optical, but all of them involve turning the mice into USB mice. So, is >> anyone aware of an ADB mouse with an optical pickup? > > Didn't Kensington make one of these? I think so. I'm having trouble tracking it down. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 16:03:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:03:57 -0700 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: <20100331115303.F9071@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net>, <2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com>, <690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>, <4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca>, , <20100331115303.F9071@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi I'm starting to make some mechanical drawing for some 11 hole punch blocks that could be used for any combination of auto or manual punching. There is an ANSI spec, X3.163, that I'd like to look at. The cheapest I've seen is $22 and I don't want to put out that much for a few simple dimensions. The one I have the most question on is envelope thickness. For the 5.25 disk I've already figured most of the rest ( or at least what I believe them to be). This is what I have so far: Spindle hole 1.125 dia index hole 0.10 dia index relative to center of disk 1.00 radius Spindle relief hole 1.5 dia Thickness of complete disk ( not counting folds at edges ) about .070 I'm hoping that there may be enough interest in these to make 10 or 20 units. This would make the machining cost reasonable. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 2 16:19:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:19:04 -0700 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net>, <20100331115303.F9071@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4BB5FCD8.28197.151A3F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Apr 2010 at 14:03, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I'm starting to make some mechanical drawing for > some 11 hole punch blocks that could be used for > any combination of auto or manual punching. > There is an ANSI spec, X3.163, that I'd like to > look at. The cheapest I've seen is $22 and I don't > want to put out that much for a few simple dimensions. > The one I have the most question on is envelope > thickness. For the 5.25 disk I've already figured > most of the rest ( or at least what I believe them > to be). > > This is what I have so far: > Spindle hole 1.125 dia > index hole 0.10 dia > index relative to center of disk 1.00 radius > Spindle relief hole 1.5 dia > Thickness of complete disk ( not counting folds at edges ) about .070 In my experience, the hole size isn't as important as the placement of the leading edge. Index/sector pulse widths vary by drive manufacturer, so the trailing edge isn't used (by anyone that I know of). For whatever it's worth. --Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 2 16:38:28 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 17:38:28 -0400 Subject: Don't Copy That Floppy In-Reply-To: <4BB60DA2.2080100@verizon.net> (sfid-20100402_113322_866620_0550CEFA) References: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net> <4BB60DA2.2080100@verizon.net> (sfid-20100402_113322_866620_0550CEFA) Message-ID: <192DA101-BB84-487C-A9E1-C169F7F90E36@heeltoe.com> >> >> > The SPA ran their "Don't Copy That Floppy" campaign well into the mid- >> > to-late 90s. Did anyone ever *really* pay $100K for owning a single >> > illegal copy of "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" as their ads >> > claimed? I worked at a company where an disgruntled employee (who had just been let go, as I recall) call the SPA. I think it was in the very late '80s. The company was playing fast and loose with licenses, but it was more due to carelessness than trying to use software for free. anyway, the SPA came in and audited every machine (and there were a lot, maybe 100's). They made a huge list of missing licenses and made the company pay a big fine. I'm not sure it was $100k, but it might have been. And naturally everyone had to buy licenses or remove the app. After that everyone got a copy of Office with each new machine. (since I think word and excel were the biggest problem). Most of the developers had licenses for everything on their machines. -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 2 16:40:50 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:40:50 -0700 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: <4BB5FCD8.28197.151A3F9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net>, <20100331115303.F9071@shell.lmi.net>, , , <4BB5FCD8.28197.151A3F9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi Chuck I've had good results using the shank of a #93 drill. I use this both for the alignment of the index and punch for the other holes. The H89 did seem a little fussy about the timing between the index hole and the others. In that case, it was clear on a scope that I was way off. Since then, with careful setting to my indexed marks, I don't see any problems. My current setup just uses a single hole punch and block. It requires me to rotate the disk ( a possible source of error ). What I'm thinking of is all 11 holes pre-drilled. This should be much easier to use. I'd be clamping from the center so even disk in envelopes could be punched or one could go with bare disk. In the case of those in envelopes, one could rotate the envelope around. In that case that one want to make it faster, one could add solenoids at each punch location and do them all at once, with a bare disk. I think that most would find that punching one at a time is no problem. Still if anyone has a copy of any of the versions of X3.163, I'd love to see it. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 2 Apr 2010 at 14:03, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > Hi > > I'm starting to make some mechanical drawing for > > some 11 hole punch blocks that could be used for > > any combination of auto or manual punching. > > There is an ANSI spec, X3.163, that I'd like to > > look at. The cheapest I've seen is $22 and I don't > > want to put out that much for a few simple dimensions. > > The one I have the most question on is envelope > > thickness. For the 5.25 disk I've already figured > > most of the rest ( or at least what I believe them > > to be). > > > > This is what I have so far: > > Spindle hole 1.125 dia > > index hole 0.10 dia > > index relative to center of disk 1.00 radius > > Spindle relief hole 1.5 dia > > Thickness of complete disk ( not counting folds at edges ) about .070 > > In my experience, the hole size isn't as important as the placement > of the leading edge. Index/sector pulse widths vary by drive > manufacturer, so the trailing edge isn't used (by anyone that I know > of). > > For whatever it's worth. > > --Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Apr 2 17:20:20 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 23:20:20 +0100 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: M H Stein > From: "Chuck Guzis" > > As a matter of fact reading the card 'sideways' was a basic principle > of the electro-mechanical punched card systems that (along with > card sales) were IBM's bread and butter until the mid-sixties. > > With the exception of keypunches, paper tape converters etc. these > machines were 'clocked' through the 12 states (12,11,0-9); the (firmly > clamped) cards and various gears, relays, punches, type bars, etc. > were cycled through these 12 states in synchronized parallel unison, > much like most of the manual 'posting machines' with full row and > column keyboards that preceded and coexisted with them. > > Timing diagrams looked much like the diagrams we're familiar with, > but they were usually calibrated in degrees of rotation of the master > camshaft instead of time. The punch of my ICT1301 is an IBM design, originally built under licence by BTM (British Tabulating Machine co), which merged to form ICT. It clocks through the 12 states and a few more while the card is being fed. It mechanically pauses in the middle of each state by means of a Geneva mechanism. It has two camshafts with bakelite cams which operate contacts which controls the punch and signals the CPU when data is ready to be punched and check read. When one card is being punched the previous card is at the check reading station with 80 wire brush contacts. It does indeed have a timing diagram as you describe. The main mechanism sits on a steel casting, and I'm told its the top part of an original Holerith design which had integral cast ball and claw feet. This plate is mounted on rubber bushes to a massive angle iron frame with the widest bit of copper earth braid I've ever seen. It operates at 100 cards per minute and the CPU has to feed it 80 bits of data for each row and reads 80 bits back from the previous card. Yes the interface is 80 bit parallel in each direction plus lots of control and status signals, 200 wires in total (8 cables of 25 cores each). The manual tells programmers to avoid punching more than 60 columns in any row. How any programmer was supposed to avoid punching a card full of zeroes I don't know. I have punched fully laced cards with it no problem, and I have a complete spare mechanism anyway, which I'm thinking of linking to my Mac, though its a big project. I've never been told that the card reader or line printer have any connection with IBM but I suppose it is possible. The reader is 600 cards a minute (80 column first) and the printer is a 600 lines per minute, 120 column drum printer (all the similar characters aligned not staggered) with a sprag mechanism which advances the paper. The card reader has a reject hopper and a main stacker. The main stacker turns the card around a big rubber drum and feeds it into slots in a pair or rollers which then turn and flip it out under the stack of cards already read. Roger Holmes From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Apr 2 18:53:16 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tons of 'free' TI-99/4A stuff in Helena, Montana Message-ID: <689210.72529.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Kaye wrote to me: "As well as software and docs, there's TI magazines, monitors, computers, peripheral memory boxes and cards, joysticks, printers, etc.." None of it is terribly valuable - there are no TI-99/4 (non-A) systems. It's all free if picked-up in person - it's too much work to mail. e-mail her at kaye67 at bresnan.net if interested. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 15:09:07 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:09:07 -0400 Subject: AP: MITS Altair pioneer dies age 68 Message-ID: It's my understanding that Ed Roberts was indeed instrumental in bringing the microcomputer to the masses or at that time(mid-70's) to the cognoscenti. His Altair 8800 was covered by technical magazines since 1972 or thereabouts. The Micro-soft empire owes its existence to MITS. Some would say that Mr. Roberts never gained or received the recognition due or deserved. Yet as far as this reader can determine he never sought it and his devotion to medicine and patients in later years speaks volumes in a world obsessed with 15 minutes of fame. Vain-glory seems not to have been part of his character. Murray-- From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Apr 2 16:24:43 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 17:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Northstar Horizon boot disks In-Reply-To: <12A20EC40EF5@dunfield.com> References: <12A20EC40EF5@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Mar 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Bootstrapping a Horizon if you don't have a working boot disk is tricky, but > it can be done - the main issue with a Horizon is "how to I get the code into > the system" - because there is no front panel or ROM monitor. Fortunately > there is a 1K ROM socket on the NorthStar CPU card. I can provide a little > (500 byte) monitor which will provide basic read/write memory commands, and > the tool mentioned above can be configured to "type" data into this monitor > as well - I have pre-configured in-ram images of both single and double > density NorthStar DOS with my client which can be transferred into the system > and launched using this little ROM monitor. Then you use the PC "NST" tool > to transfer a boot disk image to physical media. Dave, Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional system would be greatly appreciated. Steve -- From chrise at pobox.com Fri Apr 2 17:40:42 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 17:40:42 -0500 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <20100331115303.F9071@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100402224042.GL6972@n0jcf.net> On Friday (04/02/2010 at 02:03PM -0700), dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I'm starting to make some mechanical drawing for > some 11 hole punch blocks that could be used for > any combination of auto or manual punching. [...] > This is what I have so far: > Spindle hole 1.125 dia > index hole 0.10 dia > index relative to center of disk 1.00 radius > Spindle relief hole 1.5 dia > Thickness of complete disk ( not counting folds at edges ) about .070 > > I'm hoping that there may be enough interest in these to make 10 > or 20 units. This would make the machining cost reasonable. I need one for 16-hole disks too :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From dave09 at dunfield.com Sat Apr 3 10:59:31 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 10:59:31 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon boot disks In-Reply-To: References: <12A20EC40EF5@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <8DFF883384C@dunfield.com> > Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon > here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all > of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional > system would be greatly appreciated. I've been handing it out on a request basis, however I've just updated the Horizon tools on my web site to include the monitor (source and tools to build it) as well as updated the documentation with some hints on how to go about making it work. Go to "Download simulators and emulators" near the end of the main page, and get the Horizon simulator - the simulator also includes all the tools to bootstrap and transfer disk images to real NorthStar based systems. The package includes bootable Double and Single density NorthStar DOS disk images which you can customize (using the simulator) if needed. Once you get the system up and running, check my site for other NorthStar images which may be useful to you. Regards, Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 2 16:16:56 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 22:16:56 +0100 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net><2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com><690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca><00eb01cad1f1$75cdb720$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <2173D871-5C98-488E-AD49-6B918A02841F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000001cad35f$4d781670$8a015f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 02, 2010 12:32 AM Subject: Re: Making Hard Sector Floppies > On Apr 1, 2010, at 4:41 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > Err... not that common. I have never heard of one of these before. Maybe > > it's down to where you work, or have worked. Excluding work experience, I > > have only had one job. > > I've never worked at a print shop, but I've done a lot of business with several of them in > NJ, PA, MD, and FL. I'm pretty sure I've never seen a print shop that didn't have a paper > drill. > > -Dave I did a quick search online last night for "paper drill" and the results seemed to be US specific. I have never been in a print shop, so maybe they are common like you say. I will certainly ask a few colleagues at work and see if they have heard of them. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 3 14:06:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: PIC900C Message-ID: I am looking for a data sheet (or at least a pinout) for an IC numbered PIC900C. Despite the number, this is not a microcontroller, it's some kind of power driver IC -- from the 'house code' on it, I suspect it's little more than a transistor array, here [1] configured as a full-H driver foo a motor. FWIW it's in a 'wide' 18 pin DIL package with a metal top surface to attach to a heatsink. I beleive it was made by Unitrode in the early 1980s. Alas the only Unitrode data book I could find on the web was too early for it. [1] On the 'servo' (notor control) board of an HP9144 tape drive. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Apr 3 14:08:47 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 20:08:47 +0100 Subject: Don't Copy That Floppy In-Reply-To: <192DA101-BB84-487C-A9E1-C169F7F90E36@heeltoe.com> References: <4BB60610.4000402@west.net> <4BB60DA2.2080100@verizon.net> (sfid-20100402_113322_866620_0550CEFA) <192DA101-BB84-487C-A9E1-C169F7F90E36@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4BB7923F.3060200@philpem.me.uk> Brad Parker wrote: > I worked at a company where an disgruntled employee (who had just been let go, > as I recall) call the SPA. I think it was in the very late '80s. Well he had to be an ex-employee... After all, if you turn in your company while you're still under their employ, you're probably going to be leaving with your P45 on the day the Goons in Black Suits turn up to do the audit. As for the "rewards" -- I've heard they're pretty insulting. ?10 per thousand infringing licenses or something like that. Wouldn't expect you'd be hired elsewhere in a hurry, either. "Hmm, he > After that everyone got a copy of Office with each new machine. (since I think > word and excel were the biggest problem). Most of the developers had licenses for > everything on their machines. Maybe it's just a "developer thing". I don't think there's anything currently installed on this system that isn't licensed -- the Win2k virtual machine is running off a CD key from a broken machine, the XP install is a legit OEM copy (that I don't use), I've got the User Licence Certificate and keyfiles for EAGLE if anyone has a burning need (and a valid need-to-know) to see them... Everything else is OSS/FS, or coded by myself. Hmm, I *think* I gave myself permission to use my own code, but how can you really be sure? :-D -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 3 15:17:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:17:49 -0400 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: <000001cad35f$4d781670$8a015f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net><2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com><690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca><00eb01cad1f1$75cdb720$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <2173D871-5C98-488E-AD49-6B918A02841F@neurotica.com> <000001cad35f$4d781670$8a015f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > I did a quick search online last night for "paper drill" and the results > seemed to be US specific. I have never been in a print shop, so maybe they > are common like you say. I will certainly ask a few colleagues at work and > see if they have heard of them. Well, there not being many other ways to make holes in inches-thick stacks of paper.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 3 15:24:26 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:24:26 -0600 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net><2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com><690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca><00eb01cad1f1$75cdb720$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <2173D871-5C98-488E-AD49-6B918A02841F@neurotica.com> <000001cad35f$4d781670$8a015f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BB7A3FA.2040405@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 2, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: >> I did a quick search online last night for "paper drill" and the results >> seemed to be US specific. I have never been in a print shop, so maybe they >> are common like you say. I will certainly ask a few colleagues at work and >> see if they have heard of them. > > Well, there not being many other ways to make holes in inches-thick stacks of paper.. Well there are other ways, but I suspect you want to keep the paper. > -Dave > Ben. From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Apr 3 15:25:58 2010 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 13:25:58 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: PIC900C Message-ID: <32379665.1270326358933.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I will have to do some digging on this. I used a PIC625 from Unitrode in designing a 12 to 5 volt switching regulator. It is a switch mode transistor with a flyback diode in it if I remember correctly. The device is a four pin can (smaller than a TO3 case). Just not sure if the 900 was in the same family. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: Tony Duell >Sent: Apr 3, 2010 12:06 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: PIC900C > >I am looking for a data sheet (or at least a pinout) for an IC numbered >PIC900C. Despite the number, this is not a microcontroller, it's some >kind of power driver IC -- from the 'house code' on it, I suspect it's >little more than a transistor array, here [1] configured as a full-H driver >foo a motor. FWIW it's in a 'wide' 18 pin DIL package with a metal top >surface to attach to a heatsink. > >I beleive it was made by Unitrode in the early 1980s. Alas the only >Unitrode data book I could find on the web was too early for it. > >[1] On the 'servo' (notor control) board of an HP9144 tape drive. > >-tony > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Apr 3 16:34:22 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 14:34:22 -0700 Subject: PIC900C References: <32379665.1270326358933.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4BB7B45B.83B42A24@cs.ubc.ca> > >From: Tony Duell > >Sent: Apr 3, 2010 12:06 PM > >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Subject: PIC900C > > > >I am looking for a data sheet (or at least a pinout) for an IC numbered > >PIC900C. Despite the number, this is not a microcontroller, it's some > >kind of power driver IC -- from the 'house code' on it, I suspect it's > >little more than a transistor array, here [1] configured as a full-H driver > >foo a motor. FWIW it's in a 'wide' 18 pin DIL package with a metal top > >surface to attach to a heatsink. > > > >I beleive it was made by Unitrode in the early 1980s. Alas the only > >Unitrode data book I could find on the web was too early for it. > > > >[1] On the 'servo' (notor control) board of an HP9144 tape drive. melamy at earthlink.net wrote: > > I will have to do some digging on this. I used a PIC625 from Unitrode in designing a 12 to 5 volt switching regulator. It is a switch mode transistor with a flyback diode in it if I remember correctly. The device is a four pin can (smaller than a TO3 case). Just not sure if the 900 was in the same family. > > best regards, Steve Thatcher Taking the lead from Steve's mention of Unitrode, I scanned through the one Unitrode book I have: "UNITRODE Switching Regulated Power Supply Design Seminar Manual (1985)". Didn't find a direct ref or spec for the PIC900, but some hints appear in a section on buck regulators: "PIC600 and PIC800 series are power output stages for buck regulators which contain switching transistors and catch diodes." "PIC910 is a complete buck regulator except for the filter components (includes transistor, catch diode, and PWM control circuit)." "Nomenclature: UFN: Power MOSFET; USD: Schottky Rectifier; ..; PIC: Hybrid Circuit." From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 3 17:08:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:08:59 -0700 Subject: PIC900C In-Reply-To: <4BB7B45B.83B42A24@cs.ubc.ca> References: <32379665.1270326358933.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <4BB7B45B.83B42A24@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4BB75A0B.3826.1481D6F@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Apr 2010 at 14:34, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Taking the lead from Steve's mention of Unitrode, I scanned through > the one Unitrode book I have: "UNITRODE Switching Regulated Power > Supply Design Seminar Manual (1985)". Didn't find a direct ref or spec > for the PIC900, but some hints appear in a section on buck regulators: > > "PIC600 and PIC800 series are power output stages for buck > regulators > which contain switching transistors and catch diodes." > > "PIC910 is a complete buck regulator except for the filter > components (includes transistor, catch diode, and PWM control > circuit)." The old UC1637 datasheet from Unitrode mentions a PIC900 as an H- bridge driver. Spec sheets show it to be 80V, 5A, but that's it. I'll have to check some of my older databooks to see if I can find something. The new UC1637 datasheet shows an L298 used instead. --Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Apr 4 00:20:04 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 01:20:04 -0400 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net><2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com><690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca><00eb01cad1f1$75cdb720$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <2173D871-5C98-488E-AD49-6B918A02841F@neurotica.com> <000001cad35f$4d781670$8a015f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BB82184.1090709@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> I did a quick search online last night for "paper drill" and the results >> seemed to be US specific. I have never been in a print shop, so maybe they >> are common like you say. I will certainly ask a few colleagues at work and >> see if they have heard of them. > > Well, there not being many other ways to make holes in inches-thick stacks of paper.. I think they're probably even more common than printing presses. There are a bunch of printer-only places that have them. Hell, IBM Poughkeepsie's internal reproduction office (copy center) has one or two. And no printing presses. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 4 00:34:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 22:34:52 -0700 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: <4BB82184.1090709@gmail.com> References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net>, , <4BB82184.1090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BB7C28C.11955.2E05289@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Apr 2010 at 1:20, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I think they're probably even more common than printing presses. > There are a bunch of printer-only places that have them. Hell, IBM > Poughkeepsie's internal reproduction office (copy center) has one or > two. And no printing presses. Bit sizes for paper drills are somewhat limited--I think the smallest commonly available size is 1/8" (3mm, more or less). --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Apr 4 05:45:25 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 11:45:25 +0100 Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: <000001cad35f$4d781670$8a015f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net><2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com><690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca><00eb01cad1f1$75cdb720$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <2173D871-5C98-488E-AD49-6B918A02841F@neurotica.com> <000001cad35f$4d781670$8a015f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BB86DC5.307@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/04/2010 22:16, Andrew Burton wrote: > I did a quick search online last night for "paper drill" and the results > seemed to be US specific. I have never been in a print shop, so maybe they > are common like you say. They're certainly common in the UK. Every University print shop I've been in (and that's quite a few) had one; our Campus Copy and Print has one now and IIRC so does the Library. When I ran a (photography and) print business we had one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 12:25:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 18:25:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: PIC900C In-Reply-To: <32379665.1270326358933.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "melamy@earthlink.net" at Apr 3, 10 01:25:58 pm Message-ID: > > I will have to do some digging on this. I used a PIC625 from Unitrode > in designing a 12 to 5 volt switching regulator. It is a switch mode > transistor with a flyback diode in it if I remember correctly. The > device is a four pin can (smaller than a TO3 case). Just not sure if the > 900 was in the same family. Yes, I've come across some of the PIC6xx parts in HP swithcing regulators. The 9845B PSU is full of them (in the secondary-side switching regulators), I think there's at least one in the 9915, but I dont ahve the schematic in front of me. They were, as you said, a chopper transistor and flyback diode in one can I've had anohter look at the PIC900C. From the connections, and finding diode-drops between the pins, it might be noting more than 2 NPN transistorsm 2 PNP transistors, a couple of diodes connected between the collector of each of one flavour of transistor and a spare pin, and a couple of uncommitted dioddes. That accounts for all the pines (2*3 (plain transistor) + 2*4 (transitor + diode) + 2*2 (diode) =18, the number of pins on the package). But I would like ot see a data sheet if it's around anywhwere... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 4 13:29:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 11:29:57 -0700 Subject: PIC900C In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB87835.11487.9AAC9E@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Apr 2010 at 20:06, Tony Duell wrote: > I am looking for a data sheet (or at least a pinout) for an IC > numbered PIC900C. Despite the number, this is not a microcontroller, > it's some kind of power driver IC -- from the 'house code' on it, I > suspect it's little more than a transistor array, here [1] configured > as a full-H driver foo a motor. FWIW it's in a 'wide' 18 pin DIL > package with a metal top surface to attach to a heatsink. Here's an old Unitrode app note showing a circuit using the PIC900B with a UC3717 chopper driver, that includes pinout of said PIC900. http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/Datasheet-02/DSA0022403.pdf I realize it's on the Web and not in a databook and that it might requires something developed within the last 20 years to access it, rather than an HP9830 and an oil lamp, but here you go. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 4 13:42:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 19:42:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: PIC900C In-Reply-To: <4BB87835.11487.9AAC9E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 4, 10 11:29:57 am Message-ID: > Here's an old Unitrode app note showing a circuit using the PIC900B > with a UC3717 chopper driver, that includes pinout of said PIC900. Thank you. From what I can tell, the final letter jsut specifies the maximum votlage, so the pinout should be the same... > > http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/Datasheet-02/DSA0022403.pdf > > I realize it's on the Web and not in a databook and that it might I did mention I'd already looked on the web and failed to find anything, so obviously I am not gonin to object to a URL that points to something useful...In fact I'd already looked on datasheetarcbive and failed to find anything other than the specifications (without a pinout), but of course I didn't look at every application note. > requires something developed within the last 20 years to access it, > rather than an HP9830 and an oil lamp, but here you go. Alas yes. But fortunately therre are places where I can use modern machines... Thanks again -tony From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Apr 4 17:45:26 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 18:45:26 -0400 Subject: Executing of RT-11 programs under RSTS/E Message-ID: <4BB91686.1050603@compsys.to> I thought it would be better to wait until Sunday, April 4th since this request for help would otherwise be seen as an April fools joke. YES! I agree that only hobby users might be interested enough to want these changes, let alone use them. But it keeps me busy and challenged. I have almost finished making changes to MACRO.SAV to fix some bugs and display the year in four digits (1972 -> 2099). Along the way, I found that MACRO.SAV and CREF.SAV assume that each other are on the SY: device and .Chain back and forth when a cross-reference table is added to the listing. Now both MACRO.SAV and CREF.SAV are allowed to be on a device different from SY: and from each other if the user so specifies. All of the code has a simple solution under RT-11 and I presume there may be a simple solution when run under RSTS/E. However, I have not run any code under RSTS/E for 20 years and have no simple way of setting up a system. My preference would be to run RSTS/E under SIMH with: (a) Debug capability if possible (b) No debug capability, but just run the program (c) Have someone else run the program under RSTS/E and test it for me in that order of priority. Has anyone a simple RSTS/E image that I can download and run without modification to allow me to test the programs myself under SIMH? That should keep everything legal for an RSTS/E distribution that is allowed under SIMH. I would also need a few hints on running, but probably very few. Can anyone help? John Dundas has helped by providing a PDF of a manual describing the RT-11 emulation under RSTS/E. This manual provides some details of the RT-11 .Chain EMT request when used under the RT-11 Real Time emulation under RSTS/E, but there are conflicts with the documentation on the RT-11 side of the fence as to the use of the PPN from RSTS/E during an RT-11 .Chain EMT request. In particular, for some of the RT-11 documentation, the 5th word in the Chain Area starting at octal address 500 (i.e. at octal location 510) is the RSTS/E PPN value for the file to be .ChainED to while other definitions place a very different value at octal location 510. Does anyone have an idea as to which documentation is correct? There may be some RSTS/E images at trailing edge. However, I would appreciate something that is ready out of the can, so to speak, as my focus is so narrow. Using RSTS/E is far from my goal. I just want to have the modified MACRO.SAV and CREF.SAV pair work under RSTS/E as well as RT-11, RTEM and TSX-Plus. The manual It may also be useful to test under any other RT-11 emulator. I know of just one, but I can't remember who developed it. Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 4 18:17:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 16:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making Hard Sector Floppies In-Reply-To: <4BB86DC5.307@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4BB2113F.3070207@west.net><2A4CD9A6-0CD2-4A3B-9038-08B7113E2307@neurotica.com><690fb940d66b93b5f4bf28d5bb3ebc4b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4BB35EAE.3010102@jetnet.ab.ca><00eb01cad1f1$75cdb720$bdfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <2173D871-5C98-488E-AD49-6B918A02841F@neurotica.com> <000001cad35f$4d781670$8a015f0a@user8459cef6fa> <4BB86DC5.307@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20100404160825.S78051@shell.lmi.net> > I did a quick search online last night for "paper drill" and the results > seemed to be US specific. I have never been in a print shop, so maybe they > are common like you say. Like a paper shear, they are present in most print shops; ALL print shops that do binding. BUT, . . . They are not big, glamorous, nor expensive (RELATIVELY!) If you ask a print shop manager to show you or list their equipment, it probably won't get mentioned. If you ask about it, you'll get an, "Oh, yeah. It's over there." They are taken for granted, but how else do you three hole punch something? In a flimsy office punch, five or ten sheets at a time? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 4 21:44:20 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 22:44:20 -0400 Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? Message-ID: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300> A few weeks back I purchased a Tandberg TDC 4120 drive at a recycler.For some reason I like collecting different tape drives and removable media, maybe just incase I find media with data I want to restore. Browsing ebay I found 6 new QIC 1000 tapes for it starting at $1 with $5 shipping "IMATION MAGNUS 46165 QIC 1000- 1.2 GB-B NEW" and put in a bid thinking nobody uses this stuff anymore. With 30 minutes currently left it has hit $117.50 and all the bids are users with 2000+ feedback. So are these things that rare, or do people snag it up to keep the prices expensive for corporate users who need tapes? I can't really see a company needing new tapes (1.2GB) these days, drives maybe to restore files but not new tapes. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 4 21:55:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 22:55:29 -0400 Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300> References: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300> Message-ID: On Apr 4, 2010, at 10:44 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Browsing ebay I found 6 new QIC 1000 tapes for it starting at $1 with $5 shipping "IMATION MAGNUS 46165 QIC 1000- 1.2 GB-B NEW" and put in a bid thinking nobody uses this stuff anymore. With 30 minutes currently left it has hit $117.50 and all the bids are users with 2000+ feedback. So are these things that rare, or do people snag it up to keep the prices expensive for corporate users who need tapes? I can't really see a company needing new tapes (1.2GB) these days, drives maybe to restore files but not new tapes. Lots and lots and LOTS of companies use really ancient PC equipment. I see quite a few places right around where I live with tape drives like that in their PCs. Remember, very few companies fall under the "Fortune 500" category, and most of them have very little interest in the idea of upgrading for the sake of upgrading. I have a consulting client (small retail store) who using 400MB QIC-80 (Travan TR-1) tapes to back up their accounting and inventory database. I could move them to an SDLT-600 ($400 used, tapes are $100/ea), but why? More than a dozen FULL backups of their accounting and inventory databases will fit on ONE of those tapes. When they can no longer find QIC-80 tapes, I'll move them to a DLT-7000 ($75 will get them one used drive and three more for spares, tapes are $4/ea). DLT-IV media will be easy to find for years to come, and I have hundreds of them in stock. For these QIC-1000 tapes...I'm betting they're suppliers who are getting lots of orders for those types of tapes from those types of companies, and are having trouble filling the orders. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From halarewich at gmail.com Sun Apr 4 22:16:34 2010 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 20:16:34 -0700 Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: References: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300> Message-ID: cheapest i could find is here 40 new for 1 tape http://salestores.com/imation46165.html On 4/4/10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Apr 4, 2010, at 10:44 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Browsing ebay I found 6 new QIC 1000 tapes for it starting at $1 with $5 > shipping "IMATION MAGNUS 46165 QIC 1000- 1.2 GB-B NEW" and put in a bid > thinking nobody uses this stuff anymore. With 30 minutes currently left it > has hit $117.50 and all the bids are users with 2000+ feedback. So are these > things that rare, or do people snag it up to keep the prices expensive for > corporate users who need tapes? I can't really see a company needing new > tapes (1.2GB) these days, drives maybe to restore files but not new tapes. > > Lots and lots and LOTS of companies use really ancient PC equipment. I see > quite a few places right around where I live with tape drives like that in > their PCs. Remember, very few companies fall under the "Fortune 500" > category, and most of them have very little interest in the idea of > upgrading for the sake of upgrading. > > I have a consulting client (small retail store) who using 400MB QIC-80 > (Travan TR-1) tapes to back up their accounting and inventory database. I > could move them to an SDLT-600 ($400 used, tapes are $100/ea), but > why? More than a dozen FULL backups of their accounting and inventory > databases will fit on ONE of those tapes. > > When they can no longer find QIC-80 tapes, I'll move them to a DLT-7000 > ($75 will get them one used drive and three more for spares, tapes are > $4/ea). DLT-IV media will be easy to find for years to come, and I have > hundreds of them in stock. > > For these QIC-1000 tapes...I'm betting they're suppliers who are getting > lots of orders for those types of tapes from those types of companies, and > are having trouble filling the orders. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 4 22:49:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 20:49:37 -0700 Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: References: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300>, , Message-ID: <4BB8FB61.5950.29B12B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Apr 2010 at 20:16, Chris Halarewich wrote: > cheapest i could find is here 40 new for 1 tape > http://salestores.com/imation46165.html $32 from ZDtronics: http://www.zdtronic.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=8 92 $18 used on eBay: 390056694198 --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 01:13:20 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 02:13:20 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? Message-ID: Hi, All, This has all been discussed over on the cbm-hackers list over the past several months, but I've been fixing a couple of Static PET boards for someone in Japan. The only thing that appears to be unique to one of the boards is a 2316B in a Commodore-built 6540 adapter board (P/N 320076) and the 901447-12 ROM that's in it. There is no corresponding ROM image on Zimmers.net (where the old funet archive lives), and this ROM reads all zeros. I have a photo of the keyboard layout for a Japanese chicklet PET, and it doesn't happen to match the map of the Japanese C-64. One interesting feature is a few Kanji characters mixed in with the Katana, specifically, "4" maps to the Kanji for "year", "5" has "month", and "6" has "day" - obviously for rendering dates easily. There looks to be 51 Japanese glyphs total (all the Katakana characters, the three Kanji, and a couple of other characters needed to write sentences in Japanese). Given that the editor ROM is identical to a standard European/US BASIC 1.0 PET, it seems likely that the character drawn on the key would be the replacement in "upper/lower case mode" for that particular symbol. It seems likely I could reproduce the general contents of the ROM following the keyboard map, but it would be great it someone out there happened to have the real thing. I already know that nobody on the cbm-hackers list has come forward with a copy, but I'm pretty sure there are PET owners on this list who are not on cbm-hackers. If anyone happens to have this ROM or ROM image, please share it with the great repository at Zimmers.net. Thank you, -ethan From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Apr 5 03:07:44 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 09:07:44 +0100 Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: HamurabiFocal source)) In-Reply-To: <4BB50768.9030403@bitsavers.org> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com><20100401123719.D51602@shell.lmi.net> <4BB50768.9030403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> I worked with cards and paper tape in both the US and UK between 1970 and 1980. 'Chad' normally referred to paper tape punchings on both teletypes and high speed punches. The receptacle into which they went was called a 'chad box'. You could tell new users because they would try to tip the contents into a paper bin. It blew everywhere and the static made it stick. We used an industrial vacuum with an earthed nozzle to empty the box and clear the chutes. As to punched cards I never heard the rectangular punchings referred to as 'chips' on either side of the Atlantic. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: 01 April 2010 21:52 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: HamurabiFocal source)) On 4/1/10 12:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > ("Hanging Chad") There is no such thing. They are called 'chips'. They went into a "chip bucket". The name is documented in the service and users manuals for punched card (NOT "punch card") devices. Repeating incorrect information is not helpful. From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 5 07:19:55 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 07:19:55 -0500 Subject: Ampro "Little Board" boot disk? Message-ID: <12634FD6671C@dunfield.com> Hi Everybody, I received this request from a good friend lately: > PS: do you happen to know anyone who has an original Ampro "Little > Board"? I'd like a copy of the boot diskette for CP/M 2.2. > > It's the one with the Z80 and no SCSI? Not their later 8088 card. I > acquired the earliest Z80 board recently, but with no CP/M diskette. > While there are some Web archives with CP/M BIOS and ROM sources, for > some reason they don't have the "boot code" sources. Can anyone help? I would also like to add the boot disk image to the archive as well. Thanks, Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 5 08:19:25 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ampro "Little Board" boot disk? In-Reply-To: <12634FD6671C@dunfield.com> References: <12634FD6671C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Everybody, > > I received this request from a good friend lately: > >> PS: do you happen to know anyone who has an original Ampro "Little >> Board"? I'd like a copy of the boot diskette for CP/M 2.2. >> >> It's the one with the Z80 and no SCSI? Not their later 8088 card. I >> acquired the earliest Z80 board recently, but with no CP/M diskette. >> While there are some Web archives with CP/M BIOS and ROM sources, for >> some reason they don't have the "boot code" sources. > > Can anyone help? > I would also like to add the boot disk image to the archive as well. > Just yesterday I put disk images of all the Ampro stuff I had up. They're here: http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/ampro/index.html g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 5 08:49:25 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 06:49:25 -0700 Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: HamurabiFocal source)) In-Reply-To: <950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com><20100401123719.D51602@shell.lmi.net> <4BB50768.9030403@bitsavers.org> <950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: <4BB9EA65.4040409@bitsavers.org> On 4/5/10 1:07 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > As to punched cards I never heard the rectangular punchings referred to as > 'chips' on either side of the Atlantic. > I refer you, then, to most IBM punched card documentation on bitsavers. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/cardProc/22-8485-3_operGuide_Sep56.pdf page 13, for example: "Chip Box Slightly to the right of the machine, as you look at it from the rear, is a removable box, which is the receptacle for the punching chips as they are cut out. This box can be easily removed, when necessary, by lifting a catch that locks it into position. The chip box should be removed and emptied daily." From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Apr 5 08:56:17 2010 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 09:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: HamurabiFocal source)) Message-ID: <33182630.1270475777387.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> now that you mention IBM used the word "chips" then the rest of the industry would have to call it something else... They probably even copyrighted the name "chips" and good thing they didn't sue the TV guys when CHiPs was on TV. -----Original Message----- >From: Al Kossow >Sent: Apr 5, 2010 9:49 AM >To: General Discussion at null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null at null >Subject: Re: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: HamurabiFocal source)) > >On 4/5/10 1:07 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> >> As to punched cards I never heard the rectangular punchings referred to as >> 'chips' on either side of the Atlantic. >> > >I refer you, then, to most IBM punched card documentation on bitsavers. > >http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/cardProc/22-8485-3_operGuide_Sep56.pdf >page 13, for example: > >"Chip Box > Slightly to the right of the machine, as you look at it from the rear, > is a removable box, which is the receptacle for the punching chips as > they are cut out. This box can be easily removed, when necessary, by > lifting a catch that locks it into position. The chip box should be > removed and emptied daily." > > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 08:58:30 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 09:58:30 -0400 Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: HamurabiFocal source)) In-Reply-To: <4BB9EA65.4040409@bitsavers.org> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com><20100401123719.D51602@shell.lmi.net> <4BB50768.9030403@bitsavers.org> <950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> <4BB9EA65.4040409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BB9EC86.7060908@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: >> As to punched cards I never heard the rectangular punchings referred >> to as >> 'chips' on either side of the Atlantic. >> > > I refer you, then, to most IBM punched card documentation on bitsavers. > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/cardProc/22-8485-3_operGuide_Sep56.pdf > page 13, for example: > > "Chip Box > Slightly to the right of the machine, as you look at it from the rear, > is a removable box, which is the receptacle for the punching chips as > they are cut out. This box can be easily removed, when necessary, by > lifting a catch that locks it into position. The chip box should be > removed and emptied daily." Regardless of what the documentation says, and what the "official" term is, my mother and her friends who worked as punch operators when I was a young boy always referred to them as "chads". I still have a couple of chad boxes my mother gave me when I was little. Peace... Sridhar From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 5 09:51:37 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 10:51:37 -0400 Subject: Paper drilling (was: Re: Making Hard Sector Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB9F8F9.9070606@sbcglobal.net> From: Dave McGuire On Apr 2, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > I did a quick search online last night for "paper drill" and the > > results seemed to be US specific. I have never been in a print > > shop, so maybe they are common like you say. I will certainly > > ask a few colleagues at work and see if they have heard of them. > > > Well, there not being many other ways to make holes in > inches-thick stacks of paper.. > > -Dave Well, when I was making a notepad (using the old pages from a Dilbert desk calendar) I just clamped the paper between a piece of 1/4" sheet wood and the circuit board backer; then used my hand drill. Kept the clamps as close to the hole location as possible. The circuit board I used, IIRC, as a backer was a ISA riser card from an IBM PC300GL PC. Cut off all but one of the card edge slots. Keeps the pads at a good angle for use, and hanging... :) -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 5 13:10:46 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:10:46 -0500 Subject: Ampro "Little Board" boot disk? In-Reply-To: References: <12634FD6671C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <13A49EA96D00@dunfield.com> > On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > Hi Everybody, > > > > I received this request from a good friend lately: > > > >> PS: do you happen to know anyone who has an original Ampro "Little > >> Board"? I'd like a copy of the boot diskette for CP/M 2.2. > >> > >> It's the one with the Z80 and no SCSI? Not their later 8088 card. I > >> acquired the earliest Z80 board recently, but with no CP/M diskette. > >> While there are some Web archives with CP/M BIOS and ROM sources, for > >> some reason they don't have the "boot code" sources. > > > > Can anyone help? > > I would also like to add the boot disk image to the archive as well. > > > > Just yesterday I put disk images of all the Ampro stuff I had up. They're > here: http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/ampro/index.html Thanks Gene, I got them. I took the liberty of converting them to indicate 250kbps data rate (standard for DSDD) and made them available in my site. Regards, Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Apr 4 01:14:28 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 01:14:28 -0500 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media In-Reply-To: References: <01CAD19D.EAC17CA0@MSE_D03> <4BB479C0.23764.A5701C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BB82E44.5080901@tx.rr.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 10:47 AM > >> On 1 Apr 2010 at 13:18, M H Stein wrote: > >>> As a matter of fact reading the card 'sideways' was a basic principle >>> of the electro-mechanical punched card systems that (along with card >>> sales) were IBM's bread and butter until the mid-sixties. > >> Now that I think of it, all of the earlier IBM equipment, with the >> exception of card punches, were fed long-edge on, right from all of >> the unit (sorters, 407 accounting machine, 519 reproducing punch) >> record equipment, through peripheral card readers, such as the 1402 >> and 1622. But the 2501, ISTR was "short edge on"--or at least that >> was the way the cards were ejected into the stacker. > >> I imagine that "long edge on" helped greatly to improve the >> throughput at the expense of greater complexity. > > > And thus the ancient IBMer joke that Thomas Watson Sr. was buried > "face down, 9-edge first". > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.PDPplanet.org/ > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > I've always remembered it as 12-edge first, and was told that was considered the "correct" card orientation for processing cards in the early days, but ICBW. Later, Charlie Carothers From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 3 08:18:19 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 09:18:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Northstar Horizon boot disks In-Reply-To: References: <12A20EC40EF5@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Apr 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I can provide a little (500 byte) monitor which will provide basic >> read/write memory commands, and the tool mentioned above can be >> configured to "type" data into this monitor as well - I have >> pre-configured in-ram images of both single and double density >> NorthStar DOS with my client which can be transferred into the system >> and launched using this little ROM monitor. Then you use the PC "NST" >> tool to transfer a boot disk image to physical media. > Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon > here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all of > them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional > system would be greatly appreciated. Ah. I believe "can provide" ---> "is included as source with NST". Is that correct? If so, I believe I'm set. Steve -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Apr 4 01:29:54 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 01:29:54 -0500 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <20100401120946.V50481@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <4BB45317.18129.E6C42@cclist.sydex.com> <20100401120946.V50481@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BB831E2.6080604@tx.rr.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 1 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What was the proportion of readers that read colum-serial versus row- >> serial? I believe the CDC 415 punch had its read station as 80 >> brushes, reading the card just punched row-wise. > > It is it character based device or a record device? > 026, 029, etc. would obviously read a column at a time (12 brushes). > 084, etc. would read a row at a time, even though they were only > reading one column (one brush). Errrmm, I never worked on an 029 but I'm reasonably sure the 026 has no "brushes" at all. ISTR the read station worked by trying to penetrate the card with some little lightly spring loaded pins. Where there were holes the penetration succeeded and contacts closed (or maybe opened). In unpunched areas the opposite happened. I must admit that it amounts to the same thing. I also seem to recall the 084 used a 1-column optical sensor. Its predecessors back through the 080 (and probably earlier) did use a single brush however. Again, same effect, just a different physical implementation. I do remember the 084 was one more screaming fast card sorter; I rather suspect that brush bounce etc. was just too much to cope with to achieve reliable operation at that speed. I'm trying unsuccessfully to remember just what the read rate was for the 084. Anyone remember? > > But, if there would be no processing of the data until it was all read, > obviously 80 brushes and a short path would be faster than 12 brushes and > a long path. > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 4 10:41:15 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 11:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: N* Question Message-ID: All, I am working at bringing up a N* Horizon system and have some questions. At present, I don't have any system software and am attempting to determine basic functionality. The box currently has a Z80-A CPU card, HRAM64 memory card and an MDS-AD3 hard-sectored floppy controller (others have been removed temporarily). There are two built-in SA-400 SS 5.25" drives. Other cards that came with the unit include a Compupro bus terminator, A Morrow Disk Jockey 2D/B 8" controller and a Morrow HDCA-4A hard disk controller. Unfortunately, the 8" Morrow hard disk emitted some magic smoke at power up and I have not done any further troubleshooting yet. Anyone know anything about Memorex 8" drive mechanisms? At power up, the system tries to boot the first floppy drive, then gives up after 10-15 seconds. I take this as a sign that some life exists. Then, I connected a PC running ProComm Plus to the left serial port, but cannot get any reponse or output there. So, problem 1: Where are baud rate settings documented? I can find pinouts for assigning signals on the DB25 connector, but not a mention of baud rate. Is it possible to obtain any sort of monitor prompt in the absence of a booted system? Doesn't the floppy controller have some sort of ROM monitor on-board? Any tips for getting a terminal connection operational? I have played with handshake signals a bit, and it sure looks like both parties have the necessary lines in the necessary states for communication to occur. Steve -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 12:53:45 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 18:53:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 5, 10 02:13:20 am Message-ID: > > Hi, All, > > This has all been discussed over on the cbm-hackers list over the past > several months, but I've been fixing a couple of Static PET boards for > someone in Japan. The only thing that appears to be unique to one of > the boards is a 2316B in a Commodore-built 6540 adapter board (P/N > 320076) and the 901447-12 ROM that's in it. There is no corresponding > ROM image on Zimmers.net (where the old funet archive lives), and this > ROM reads all zeros. Does the machine work? If so, the ROM must be good (if the character genereator was all 0's you'd get either totally black or totally white charactoers (substitue whatever colour the CRT phosphor is for 'white', of course). One of the mask options with mask programmed ROMs (apart from the ROM contents of course) was the polarity (active high .vs. active low) of the enable signals. It's quite possible this ROM has at least one active-high enable, whch means it will not read out in most programmers. Depending on the programmer you migth be ableo t make up a little adapter to tie the appropriate pin high or low and then read it out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 12:56:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 18:56:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: In-Reply-To: <950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 5, 10 09:07:44 am Message-ID: > > I worked with cards and paper tape in both the US and UK between 1970 = > and > 1980. 'Chad' normally referred to paper tape punchings on both teletypes = > and > high speed punches. The receptacle into which they went was called a = > 'chad > box'. You could tell new users because they would try to tip the = Yes, alont with terms like 'chad duct' for the tube that carries the punchings from the die block to the chad box. I am pretty sure I've seen such terms in service manuals for paper tape equipment. > contents > into a paper bin. It blew everywhere and the static made it stick.=20 > We used an industrial vacuum with an earthed nozzle to empty the box and > clear the chutes. > > As to punched cards I never heard the rectangular punchings referred to = > as > 'chips' on either side of the Atlantic. =20 Nor have I. I wonder if this is an IBM .vs. the rest of the world thing. IBM had their own terms for a lot of things (PEL rather than Pixel, All Points Addressable mode rather htan Bitmaped mode, Planar board rather than motehrboard, Module rather than integrated circuit, and so on). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 5 13:12:16 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:12:16 -0700 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <4BB831E2.6080604@tx.rr.com> References: , <20100401120946.V50481@shell.lmi.net>, <4BB831E2.6080604@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4BB9C590.30930.995BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Apr 2010 at 1:29, CSquared wrote: > I do remember the 084 was one more screaming fast card sorter; I > rather suspect that brush bounce etc. was just too much to cope with to > achieve reliable operation at that speed. I'm trying unsuccessfully to > remember just what the read rate was for the 084. Anyone remember? One doesn't need a memory with the web. From the Columbia university web site http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/sorter.html: Type 84 19?? 2000 cpm "For some reason, IBM didn't produce a card reader that operated at 2000 cpm. The 084 was unique in that it used a vacuum-assist card- feed mechanism that did not require the use of a card-weight, as the cards were held against the throat and picker knives by suction. The 084 also used an optical method of detecting card punches instead of the wire brush used by earlier models. " I never got to use an 084, just an 082--there must have been a jillion of those in service. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 5 13:17:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:17:29 -0700 Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: <950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> from "Rod Smallwood" at Apr 5, 10 09:07:44 am, Message-ID: <4BB9C6C9.19612.E5C93@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2010 at 18:56, Tony Duell wrote: > Nor have I. I wonder if this is an IBM .vs. the rest of the world > thing. IBM had their own terms for a lot of things (PEL rather than > Pixel, All Points Addressable mode rather htan Bitmaped mode, Planar > board rather than motehrboard, Module rather than integrated circuit, > and so on). Part of going to work for a company of that era was learning the vocabulary for things you were already familiar with. CDC RMS = IBM DASD = most everyone else "disk". CDC "label" = IBM "VTOC", which end of a word was "bit 0", etc. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 13:20:07 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:20:07 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/5/10, Tony Duell wrote: > Does the machine work? Yes, video works except for the CHRGEN ROM. If it worked in its "normal" space, I'd just type chars to validate the Katakana mapping to PETSCII. > If so, the ROM must be good (if the character > genereator was all 0's you'd get either totally black or totally white > charactoers (substitue whatever colour the CRT phosphor is for 'white', > of course). That's exactly it... all chars that are in "normal video" are blank, and all chars in inverse video are white (exactly as expected since in PETs unlike C-64s, normal/reverse video is handled in hardware, not with a 4K CHRGEN ROM). > One of the mask options with mask programmed ROMs (apart from the ROM > contents of course) was the polarity (active high .vs. active low) of the > enable signals. It's quite possible this ROM has at least one active-high > enable, whch means it will not read out in most programmers. Depending on > the programmer you migth be ableo t make up a little adapter to tie the > appropriate pin high or low and then read it out. I am not reading this in a programmer - the footprint from the adapter is for the 6540, not JEDEC, and I have no programmer that knows what a 6540 is (the ROM on the adapter is a 2316, but it's soldered in place and I was trying not to remove it to minimize the risk to the ROM or the adapter). I stuffed the adapter into the $C000 socket and was reading the contents with a Fluke 9010A in the CPU socket. BASIC and KERNEL and real CHRGEN ROMs reads fine with this technique; I even have Fluke signatures to verify ROM contents (and have identified two bad ROMs from my parts bin). The ROM/adapter board in the $C000 socket reads all zeros, but that's consistent with its behavior in its "normal" CHRGEN ROM socket, so I'm unsurprised I can't read it. This board came to me with the CHRGEN ROM already bad. It has never been known to work while in the owners nor my possession. I was hoping to get a known valid ROM image so I could burn a replacement 2716 or 2732 and use either the original adapter or one that Jim Brain has recently built (which has already been tested to work with real JEDEC-footprint CHRGEN ROMs). I have a photo of a Japanese keyboard map. I think I can use this to cobble up a faux 901447-12 or near equivalent, but it sure would be nice to get the data from a real ROM rather than guess. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 13:12:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 19:12:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: N* Question In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 4, 10 11:41:15 am Message-ID: > Where are baud rate settings documented? I can find pinouts for assigning > signals on the DB25 connector, but not a mention of baud rate. I know very little about N* machines, but if it uses a separate baud rater generator circuit (seprate that is to the serial chip -- and I seem to rememnber 8251s in there which always use a separate baud rate generator), then a useful trick is to connect a 'scope or frequency counter to the transmit and receive clock inputs on the serial chip. In most cases the buad tate is that freqeuncy/16. It's posisble to program some serial chiss for divide-by-64 (and other values have been used too), but most of hte time its divide-by-16. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 5 14:08:12 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:08:12 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? Message-ID: <01CAD4D1.EF92A920@MSE_D03> ----------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 02:13:20 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? Hi, All, This has all been discussed over on the cbm-hackers list over the past several months, but I've been fixing a couple of Static PET boards for someone in Japan. The only thing that appears to be unique to one of the boards is a 2316B in a Commodore-built 6540 adapter board (P/N 320076) and the 901447-12 ROM that's in it. There is no corresponding ROM image on Zimmers.net (where the old funet archive lives), and this ROM reads all zeros. I have a photo of the keyboard layout for a Japanese chicklet PET, and it doesn't happen to match the map of the Japanese C-64. One interesting feature is a few Kanji characters mixed in with the Katana, specifically, "4" maps to the Kanji for "year", "5" has "month", and "6" has "day" - obviously for rendering dates easily. There looks to be 51 Japanese glyphs total (all the Katakana characters, the three Kanji, and a couple of other characters needed to write sentences in Japanese). Given that the editor ROM is identical to a standard European/US BASIC 1.0 PET, it seems likely that the character drawn on the key would be the replacement in "upper/lower case mode" for that particular symbol. It seems likely I could reproduce the general contents of the ROM following the keyboard map, but it would be great it someone out there happened to have the real thing. I already know that nobody on the cbm-hackers list has come forward with a copy, but I'm pretty sure there are PET owners on this list who are not on cbm-hackers. If anyone happens to have this ROM or ROM image, please share it with the great repository at Zimmers.net. Thank you, -ethan --------------------------------Reply: ---------------------------------------------------------- It would certainly be nice to find the 'official' ROM, but I thought that the ROM that Philip (the owner of that PET on your bench) created was pretty well complete and correct; it seems to match my Japanese keyboard perfectly except for one character, and I suspect it's the key that's wrong and not the CG. Did you try that image and match it up to your Japanese chiclet keyboard? I've been playing with the idea of having all three (four?) character sets available on screen at the same time, using the reverse video signal. mike From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Apr 5 14:34:22 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:34:22 -0400 Subject: Northstar Horizon boot disks In-Reply-To: <8DFF883384C@dunfield.com> References: <12A20EC40EF5@dunfield.com> <8DFF883384C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4BBA3B3E.5050003@verizon.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon >> here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all >> of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional >> system would be greatly appreciated. >> > > I've been handing it out on a request basis, however I've just updated the > Horizon tools on my web site to include the monitor (source and tools to > build it) as well as updated the documentation with some hints on how to > go about making it work. > > Go to "Download simulators and emulators" near the end of the main page, > and get the Horizon simulator - the simulator also includes all the tools > to bootstrap and transfer disk images to real NorthStar based systems. The > package includes bootable Double and Single density NorthStar DOS disk > images which you can customize (using the simulator) if needed. Once you > get the system up and running, check my site for other NorthStar images > which may be useful to you. > > Regards, > Dave > > > -- > dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ > > Dave, Without a bootable disk he can't do anything! The only resident rom is the disk booter all 256 or 512 bytes depending if its SD or DD. Minimally a monitor on a rom card (or cpu) with a minimal monitor is needed. This has been the challenge for all new people aquiring NS* systems without media. The other problem is without a CW card one cannot make a bootable disk using a generic PC as it's hard sectored. My solution is a CPU (compupro Z80, of SBC880) with Eprom monitor or using a card like Compupro System Support 1 that can carry rom and provide a system monitor/debugger. Of course any rom card can carry the needed code. One would also do well to read the available and very complete NS* Horizon docs on line. It explains the system very well and also provides the needed schematics, layouts and minute detail that are required. Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 5 14:50:44 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 12:50:44 -0700 Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBA3F14.3060804@bitsavers.org> >> As to punched cards I never heard the rectangular punchings referred to = >> as >> 'chips' on either side of the Atlantic. =20 > > Nor have I. I wonder if this is an IBM .vs. the rest of the world thing. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/univac_60_120/GMS-1011TM_UNIVAC_60_120_Service_Manual_21.pdf page D-5: "Full Chip Pan Micro Switch" -- Please site a printed example of the use of "chad" in a manufacturer's manual describing what is cut out from a card. I have now given two, from two different vendors, describing them as 'chips'. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 5 14:57:48 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 12:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: HamurabiFocal source)) In-Reply-To: <4BB9EC86.7060908@gmail.com> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com><20100401123719.D51602@shell.lmi.net> <4BB50768.9030403@bitsavers.org> <950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> <4BB9EA65.4040409@bitsavers.org> <4BB9EC86.7060908@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100405125659.R18344@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > "Chip Box > Regardless of what the documentation says, and what the "official" term > is, my mother and her friends who worked as punch operators when I was a > young boy always referred to them as "chads". I still have a couple of > chad boxes my mother gave me when I was little. Now we know where the boxes disappeared to! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 5 15:03:05 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paper drilling (was: Re: Making Hard Sector Floppies) In-Reply-To: <4BB9F8F9.9070606@sbcglobal.net> References: <4BB9F8F9.9070606@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20100405125858.W18344@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Well, when I was making a notepad (using the old pages from a Dilbert > desk calendar) I just clamped the paper between a piece of 1/4" sheet > wood and the circuit board backer; then used my hand drill. Kept the > clamps as close to the hole location as possible. Congratulations You manufactured a paper drill. Next time, . . . You'll find that a drill press is much more convenient if you need to do a bunch, and that a hollow tubular drill bit (try a printer Binding Supplies company!) works much better than a standard helical drill bit. > The circuit board I used, IIRC, as a backer was a ISA riser card from > an IBM PC300GL PC. Cut off all but one of the card edge slots. Keeps the > pads at a good angle for use, and hanging... :) 'course now somebody will show up who is desperate for one of those boards, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 5 15:21:07 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:21:07 -0700 Subject: Northstar Horizon boot disks In-Reply-To: <4BBA3B3E.5050003@verizon.net> References: <12A20EC40EF5@dunfield.com> <8DFF883384C@dunfield.com>,<4BBA3B3E.5050003@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:34:22 -0400 > From: ajp166 at verizon.net > To: > Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon boot disks > > Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon > >> here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all > >> of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional > >> system would be greatly appreciated. > >> > > > > I've been handing it out on a request basis, however I've just updated the > > Horizon tools on my web site to include the monitor (source and tools to > > build it) as well as updated the documentation with some hints on how to > > go about making it work. > > > > Go to "Download simulators and emulators" near the end of the main page, > > and get the Horizon simulator - the simulator also includes all the tools > > to bootstrap and transfer disk images to real NorthStar based systems. The > > package includes bootable Double and Single density NorthStar DOS disk > > images which you can customize (using the simulator) if needed. Once you > > get the system up and running, check my site for other NorthStar images > > which may be useful to you. > > > > Regards, > > Dave > > > > > > -- > > dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield > > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > > com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ > > > > > Dave, > > Without a bootable disk he can't do anything! The only resident rom is > the disk booter all 256 or 512 bytes depending if its SD or DD. > > Minimally a monitor on a rom card (or cpu) with a minimal monitor is > needed. > > This has been the challenge for all new people aquiring NS* systems > without media. > > The other problem is without a CW card one cannot make a bootable > disk using a generic PC as it's hard sectored. > > My solution is a CPU (compupro Z80, of SBC880) with Eprom monitor > or using a card like Compupro System Support 1 that can carry rom > and provide a system monitor/debugger. Of course any rom card > can carry the needed code. > > One would also do well to read the available and very complete NS* > Horizon docs on line. It explains the system very well and also > provides the needed schematics, layouts and minute detail that > are required. > > Allison Hi Allison What Dave is talking about is a bootstrapping ROM monitor that can be used to create a boot disk. That is exactly what he is providing. He is quite aware of the problem of the chicken and egg. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 5 16:22:56 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:22:56 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon boot disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14549B844ED5@dunfield.com> > >> I can provide a little (500 byte) monitor which will provide basic > >> read/write memory commands, > >> ... > Ah. I believe "can provide" ---> "is included as source with NST". Is > that correct? If so, I believe I'm set. At the time I wrote that, "can provide" ment I could give it to you if you emailed me - however since then I have added the monitor to the Horizon simulator package (which also includes NST etc.) - so if you don't have it in the copy you have, just re-download it from my site. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 5 15:25:08 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <4BB9C590.30930.995BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100401120946.V50481@shell.lmi.net>, <4BB831E2.6080604@tx.rr.com> <4BB9C590.30930.995BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100405131539.D18344@shell.lmi.net> > On 4 Apr 2010 at 1:29, CSquared wrote: > > I do remember the 084 was one more screaming fast card sorter; I > > rather suspect that brush bounce etc. was just too much to cope with to > > achieve reliable operation at that speed. I'm trying unsuccessfully to > > remember just what the read rate was for the 084. Anyone remember? Change from brushes to photocells was essential to getting the speed up. On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One doesn't need a memory with the web. From the Columbia university > web site http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/sorter.html: > Type 84 19?? 2000 cpm > "For some reason, IBM didn't produce a card reader that operated at > 2000 cpm. The 084 was unique in that it used a vacuum-assist card- > feed mechanism that did not require the use of a card-weight, as the > cards were held against the throat and picker knives by suction. The > 084 also used an optical method of detecting card punches instead of > the wire brush used by earlier models. " > I never got to use an 084, just an 082--there must have been a > jillion of those in service. I never used an 084, either. Vacuum? photocell?? 2000 CPM??? WOW! Must have been 082s. Were there any earlier minimal models without counters? ISTR some elation over upgrade. Without refressh, wetware dynamic RAM decays. Since there isn't adequate ECC, the mind lets it pass with incorrect data! Sorry. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 5 15:34:46 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Northstar Horizon boot disks In-Reply-To: References: <12A20EC40EF5@dunfield.com> <8DFF883384C@dunfield.com>, <4BBA3B3E.5050003@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20100405132601.Q18344@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Allison > What Dave is talking about is a bootstrapping ROM monitor that can be > used to create a boot disk. That is exactly what he is providing. > He is quite aware of the problem of the chicken and egg. Dave is quite cognizant of the bizarre requirements to "Bootstrap". Having an EPROM programmer on another machine really helps a lot! The term originated from the exploits of Baron Von Munchausen. He was sinking into a swamp, with nothing overhead nor to the sides to grab hold of. So, he reached down, and grabbed his own boot straps, pulled up on them, and lifted himself (and his horse!) out of the mire. Or so he claimed. It's a great metaphor! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 5 15:35:37 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 22:35:37 +0200 Subject: Reading a BRUSYS tape Message-ID: <3bf79a0c2447d143bd458fdb2187eed6.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hi everybody, I have a question, is there someone who can read for me 2 separate 9 track tapes containing a brusys type backup onto an image readable for SIMH? Please contact me off list. Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 5 15:38:00 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: In-Reply-To: <4BBA3F14.3060804@bitsavers.org> References: <4BBA3F14.3060804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20100405133604.N18344@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > Please site a printed example of the use of "chad" in a manufacturer's manual describing what > is cut out from a card. > > I have now given two, from two different vendors, describing them as 'chips'. Just having Faux News and CNN using "chad" may be enough for us to want to use "chip". I shall continue to put quotes around it every time I refer to their "Hanging Chad". From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 5 15:50:01 2010 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBA3F14.3060804@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <422936.91353.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/5/10, Al Kossow wrote: From: Al Kossow Subject: Re: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 12:50 PM >> As to punched cards I never heard the rectangular punchings referred to = >> as >> 'chips' on either side of the Atlantic. =20 > > Nor have I. I wonder if this is an IBM .vs. the rest of the world thing. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univac/univac_60_120/GMS-1011TM_UNIVAC_60_120_Service_Manual_21.pdf page D-5: "Full Chip Pan Micro Switch" -- Please site a printed example of the use of "chad" in a manufacturer's manual describing what is cut out from a card. I have now given two, from two different vendors, describing them as 'chips'. Page 2-1 of the Decision Data 8100 manual http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/decisionData/DD-159-114_8001_8010_Operators_Man_1973.pdf has the following: Punched chad (or chips) from the cards fall into the chip box. So it looks like they recognized the common usage of chad as the output of a punch. Bob From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 5 16:50:22 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:50:22 -0500 Subject: N* Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <146DAD0E0716@dunfield.com> > The box currently has a Z80-A CPU card, HRAM64 memory card and an MDS-AD3 > hard-sectored floppy controller (others have been removed temporarily). > There are two built-in SA-400 SS 5.25" drives. The MDS-AD3 is a Double Density controller - you will need single-sided boot disks (with N*DOS a double-sided disk should boot, but you won't be able to correctly access files which occupy sectors on the second side). I assume thats a 64k RAM card - if you put my monitor in the CPU card ROM socket, you will need to make sure that the corresponding area is disabled on the RAM card - You will already have a block disabled at the disk controller (E800-EBFF) and depending on the card, this may include a little "extra" (with my 64K card, 2K is the smaller deselectable chunk, so I have EC00-EFFF disabled as well). > At power up, the system tries to boot the first floppy drive, then gives > up after 10-15 seconds. I take this as a sign that some life exists. By "tries to boot" I assume you mean the drive select light comes on and the heads load (SA-400 has head-load) - To verify that it steps, manually move it out 1/2 way or so with the power off, then power it on - you should see it select and move to track-0. > Then, I connected a PC running ProComm Plus to the left serial port, but > cannot get any reponse or output there. You won't without a boot disk. > So, problem 1: > > Where are baud rate settings documented? I can find pinouts for assigning > signals on the DB25 connector, but not a mention of baud rate. They are documented in the Horizon System Manual, a PDF of which is available in the "NorthStar Horizon" area of my site. > Is it possible to obtain any sort of monitor prompt in the absence of a > booted system? Doesn't the floppy controller have some sort of ROM > monitor on-board? No - the floppy controller has a very small ROM which knows how to seek to track zero, read one sector from the disk into RAM and a fixed location (2000) and jump to it. It does not even initialize, let alone "talk to" the serial console. > Any tips for getting a terminal connection operational? I have played > with handshake signals a bit, and it sure looks like both parties have the > necessary lines in the necessary states for communication to occur. Without a boot disk, your only option is to make use of the 1K ROM socket on the CPU card - it takes a 2708, but you can build an adapter to use a larger device if you don't have or can't program a 2708 - you can even use something like the Dallas battery-backed-up RAM chips (**) which make erase/program cycles very fast -keep in mind that you don't need it to look pretty - you only need it until you have a boot disk up and running, and you can put the CPU back a couple of slots to allow room for the adapter. (** if you go this route, know that the DS chips have a power-monitor which may not release until after the simple CPU reset circuit - so you may have to power- up and then issue a reset to get it to start properly). The console will probably be at 9600 (unless someone has changed it). Check the jumpers to be sure. As noted above, make sure you can deselect a suitable area of the memory map to make room for the monitor. Remove anything un-necessary when getting the monitor up and running - that means pull the FDC (and the 8" one if you haven't already) - since my monitor does not require RAM, you can pull the RAM card as well - so all you will have in the system at first is the CPU. Set the ROM address, and POJ (power-on-jump) headers to the address where you origned the code for the ROM (I provide a utility that will show you the correct settings for any given address). If the monitor does not "come up", and you have access to a scope, check out the ddress us while it is running - since it will be sitting in a very tight loop, you should see a recognizable pattern - several cycles within the ROM address space (only the lower few address lines should toggle) and one access to the UART I/O address. If that doesn't seem right, then you can use tricks like tying the ROM select to the wait line - it should halt at the startng address of the ROM. Also, with a storage scope and a little patience, you can capture the first few bus cycles - you should be able to see the power-on-jump address at the beginning. ... But this is getting beyond the scope of this reply. Once you see it's running it's polling loop, then you can track down the accesses to the UART to debug it at the hardware level if necessary. Once you get to the monitor '>' prompt, you are well on your way! Put the RAM card back in, and verfy that the monitor still runs (ie: you did de- select a block for it properly) - then use it to write and readback some locations where there should be RAM and confirm that it appears to be there and holds it's content. Then put the N*FDC back in and confirm that the monitor runs - from there, you can proceed to the documentation in my simulator/NST package which should give you enough information to create a boot disk (Assuming the FDC works - debugging that is another excercise). Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 5 16:56:06 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:56:06 -0500 Subject: Northstar Horizon boot disks In-Reply-To: <4BBA3B3E.5050003@verizon.net> References: <8DFF883384C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <1472E1D217B3@dunfield.com> > Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? > Without a bootable disk he can't do anything! The only resident rom is > the disk booter all 256 or 512 bytes depending if its SD or DD. > > Minimally a monitor on a rom card (or cpu) with a minimal monitor is > needed. > > This has been the challenge for all new people aquiring NS* systems > without media. We've been specifically talking about a tiny (<500 byte) RAMless monitor which can be put into the 2708 socket on the N* ZPB CPU card. > The other problem is without a CW card one cannot make a bootable > disk using a generic PC as it's hard sectored. Once you have the ROM monitor working in the CPU card, it can be used to download into RAM a copy of N*DOS with my NST client - then you can use my NST utility on the PC to transfer images over the serial port and have the system write them to disk. > My solution is a CPU (compupro Z80, of SBC880) with Eprom monitor > or using a card like Compupro System Support 1 that can carry rom > and provide a system monitor/debugger. Of course any rom card > can carry the needed code. Good point that I failed to mention earlier - if you have access to another working S-100 system, you can put your NorthStar controller into it, load the software into memory by whatever means can be done on that system, and then launch it to write the N* disks ... My simulator has fully configurable serial I/O (can make it look like virtually any UART) so you can use it to configure and test a version of N*DOS and the NST client which would work on that other system. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 5 15:59:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM's own terminology (Was: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100405133903.P18344@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Nor have I. I wonder if this is an IBM .vs. the rest of the world thing. > IBM had their own terms for a lot of things (PEL rather than Pixel, All > Points Addressable mode rather htan Bitmaped mode, Planar board rather > than motehrboard, Module rather than integrated circuit, and so on). A typically unreliable source, my uncle, was working for IBM throughout much of that time. He claimed that IBM's refusal to use the term "Motherboard" was directly due to repeated use by the Black Panthers of "MotherBLEEP" and "Up against the wall, motherBLEEP!" in speeches at Merritt College (particularly Eldridge Cleaver's "Part of the solution; part of the problem" speech in 1968). My uncle was, of course, very upset when I began teaching at Merritt College in the 80's, even though the college had moved in 1972, and was no longer the location of political activity. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 5 16:51:31 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 14:51:31 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad References: <422936.91353.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BBA5B62.894C30A4@cs.ubc.ca> Somebody might check some manuals for teletypes or paper-tape punches for the 'official term' used for the punch detritus from paper tape. TMR, the box on the side of the teletype paper tape punch was commonlny called the chad box. I wonder if "chad" had origins with teletypes and paper tape, an industry (telephone) separate from the punched card / data processing industry way back when, and in which different terminology developed. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 5 16:54:38 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:54:38 +0200 Subject: eBay disaster Message-ID: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> Hi folks, could someone please explain me THIS? http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 I don't sell on eBay very often. And from time to time I see people paying astronomical sums for more or less junk. But this time it was me offering stuff - and what did I get? I have no clue who would sell me a used RK05 disk pack in unknown condition for that price. But this was a new in a box one....! What did I do wrong? Was it the winner of the auction who has 0 eBay points? There was absolutely no trace of fraud on my side. I did neither bid with another account nor did I even ask someone to bid on my auctions to drive up the price. That's what I got from it. I hope that the lucky 0 points high bidder on my pack is someone who really exists... Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 5 17:01:27 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 18:01:27 -0400 Subject: Paper drilling (was: Re: Making Hard Sector Floppies) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBA5DB7.2020103@sbcglobal.net> Message: 16 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:03:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin Subject: Re: Paper drilling (was: Re: Making Hard Sector Floppies) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <20100405125858.W18344 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > > Well, when I was making a notepad (using the old pages from a > > Dilbert desk calendar) I just clamped the paper between a piece > > of 1/4" sheet wood and the circuit board backer; then used my > > hand drill. Kept the clamps as close to the hole location as > > possible. > > Congratulations > You manufactured a paper drill. Yep, hence my posting of what I'd done.... > Next time, . . . > You'll find that a drill press is much more convenient if you > need to do a bunch,... Yes, it would've been, if I indeed had one in my shop. > and that a hollow tubular drill bit (try > a printer Binding Supplies company!) works much better than a > standard helical drill bit. See comment above... Always one wise-ass in the bunch, isn't there? ;) > > The circuit board I used, IIRC, as a backer was a ISA > > riser card froman IBM PC300GL PC. Cut off all but one of > > the card edge slots. Keeps the pads at a good angle for > > use, and hanging... :) > > 'course now somebody will show up who is desperate for one of those > boards, . . . yeah, Murphy's law, ain't it? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 5 17:01:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:01:35 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBA5B62.894C30A4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <422936.91353.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <4BBA5B62.894C30A4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4BB9FB4F.27981.DB86BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2010 at 14:51, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I wonder if "chad" had origins with teletypes and paper tape, an > industry (telephone) separate from the punched card / data processing > industry way back when, and in which different terminology developed. Dunno, but either was fun to hide in a friend's drawer or light fixture. Paper tape punches were far nastier than the ones from punched cards. Maybe we should call them punched card holes in the spirit of "doughnut holes"... (for the uninitiated, these are balls of fried dough, ostensibly cut from the centers of doughnut blanks). Cheers, Chuck From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 17:11:39 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:11:39 +1000 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBA5B62.894C30A4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <422936.91353.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BBA5B62.894C30A4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Somebody might check some manuals for teletypes or paper-tape punches for the > 'official term' used for the punch detritus from paper tape. TMR, the box on > the side of the teletype paper tape punch was commonlny called the chad box. "chad container" and "chad chute assembly" appear in the Technical Manual 33 Teletypewriter Sets Bulletin 310B Vol 1 circa 1962, 1964, 1968 and 1969, Teletype Corporation. The dates are all over the place since the manual contains different revisions of various sections. From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Apr 5 17:13:41 2010 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 18:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay disaster Message-ID: <29838621.1270505621474.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I am assuming that you were hoping for a higher selling price... First of all, you should have set a reserve price on the auction or a minimum bid of what you wanted to "at least" get from the auction. The buyer (whatever his rating) may have just signed up. I think I would have included the native language write up rather than just in English. Second, sometimes just a picture of a box is just what a buyer gets. I would have taken pictures of the box insides or even included a stock photo of what the disk pack is that is in the box. just a couple of thoughts. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: Philipp Hachtmann >Sent: Apr 5, 2010 5:54 PM >To: General Discussion at null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null at null >Subject: eBay disaster > >Hi folks, > >could someone please explain me THIS? >http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 > >I don't sell on eBay very often. And from time to time I see people paying astronomical sums for >more or less junk. But this time it was me offering stuff - and what did I get? I have no clue who >would sell me a used RK05 disk pack in unknown condition for that price. But this was a new in a box >one....! > >What did I do wrong? >Was it the winner of the auction who has 0 eBay points? There was absolutely no trace of fraud on my >side. I did neither bid with another account nor did I even ask someone to bid on my auctions to >drive up the price. That's what I got from it. I hope that the lucky 0 points high bidder on my pack >is someone who really exists... > >Regards, > >Philipp > > > > > > >-- >http://www.hachti.de From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 17:18:33 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 18:18:33 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? In-Reply-To: <01CAD4D1.EF92A920@MSE_D03> References: <01CAD4D1.EF92A920@MSE_D03> Message-ID: On 4/5/10, M H Stein wrote: > ----------------Original Message: > > Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 02:13:20 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? > It would certainly be nice to find the 'official' ROM, but I thought that > the ROM that Philip (the owner of that PET on your bench) created > was pretty well complete and correct; it seems to match my Japanese > keyboard perfectly except for one character, and I suspect it's the key > that's wrong and not the CG. Why would the key be wrong? > Did you try that image and match it up to your Japanese chiclet > keyboard? I have not. If you could send me a copy of it off-list, that would be appreciated. I don't seem to have it in the place I store such things (though I do remember the conversation). > I've been playing with the idea of having all three (four?) character sets > available on screen at the same time, using the reverse video signal. How would that work? Obviously, you'd use some new means of toggling upper bits on the CHRGEN ROM, but I don't get how the reverse video signal would be the trigger... the upper bit on a PET character cell inverts the data out of the bit shifter (unlike the C-64 where it's just another address bit). I can see how you could steal that upper bit and pipe it into A11 on a larger CHRGEN ROM, but how do you get 3 or 4 sets from one bit? -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 5 17:26:41 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 00:26:41 +0200 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <29838621.1270505621474.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29838621.1270505621474.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4BBA63A1.9090803@hachti.de> > I am assuming that you were hoping for a higher selling price... Yes, of course! > First of all, you should have set a reserve price on the auction or a minimum bid of what you > wanted to "at least" get from the auction. Puh.. A minimum is possible. But a reserve? I feel uncomfortable when I see this "reserve not met" thing in other auctions. So I don't really like that idea. > The buyer (whatever his rating) may have just signed > up. Yes. That's the reason why I refused to limit the group of people who are allowed to bid. If this should turn out to be a scam, I'll think different when it comes to further offers. > I think I would have included the native language write up rather than just in English. Oh, why? Because of my bad English? The chance to sell this kind of stuff to someone in Germany is quite a bit lower than selling it to elsewhere (i.e. US) in the world. So I decided to write in English only. > Second, sometimes just a picture of a box is just what a buyer gets. I would have taken pictures > of the box insides or even included a stock photo of what the disk pack is that is in the box. If you looked at the pictures I have put onto the auction you should have seen that I actually have photographed a pack lying on the box. Another one, of course. I did not want to open the box - opening the box would have spoiled the whole thing. > -----Original Message----- >> From: Philipp Hachtmann Sent: Apr 5, 2010 5:54 PM To: General >> Discussion at null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null at null Subject: eBay >> disaster >> >> Hi folks, >> >> could someone please explain me THIS? >> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 >> >> I don't sell on eBay very often. And from time to time I see people paying astronomical sums >> for more or less junk. But this time it was me offering stuff - and what did I get? I have no >> clue who would sell me a used RK05 disk pack in unknown condition for that price. But this was >> a new in a box one....! >> >> What did I do wrong? Was it the winner of the auction who has 0 eBay points? There was >> absolutely no trace of fraud on my side. I did neither bid with another account nor did I even >> ask someone to bid on my auctions to drive up the price. That's what I got from it. I hope that >> the lucky 0 points high bidder on my pack is someone who really exists... >> >> Regards, >> >> Philipp >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- http://www.hachti.de -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 5 17:48:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 15:48:52 -0700 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBA63A1.9090803@hachti.de> References: <29838621.1270505621474.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <4BBA63A1.9090803@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BBA0664.14063.106D16E@cclist.sydex.com> It's easy--you forgot to add "L@@K!" to the listing title. :) --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Apr 5 18:28:58 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 16:28:58 -0700 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? References: <01CAD4D1.EF92A920@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4BBA7239.82ABE154@cs.ubc.ca> Speaking of early Commodore PETs, I have here a 4032 on which some of the keys do not work. Some time ago I took a brief look at it and, as I recall, concluded the problem was not the keyboard but rather something was messed up with the scanning, something like not all columns/rows being scanned. I think it was a 6821 or 6822 or some such doing the I/O, but the diagnosis was perhaps more suggestive of something like a PROM bit failure causing the firmware program to foreshorten the scan sequence. Anyone have knowledge of a known failure mode of this sort with these machines? From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 5 18:30:46 2010 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 00:30:46 +0100 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBA63A1.9090803@hachti.de> References: <29838621.1270505621474.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4BBA63A1.9090803@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BBA72A6.6090703@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > If you looked at the pictures I have put onto the auction you should > have seen that I actually have photographed a pack lying on the box. > Another one, of course. I did not want to open the box - opening the box > would have spoiled the whole thing. The flip side of that is how do I know as a buyer, that I'm not just buying a box....I've known that to happen on ebay too. Though to be honest I can't understand the facination with having the box unopened, brand new yes I can understand that, but unopened, besides it's pretty easy to fake that also by re-sealing the box..... Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Apr 5 18:56:39 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:56:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *free* NEC APC in Schenectady, NY Message-ID: <808815.684.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Julie writes to me: --------------------------------------------------------- "I have *three* NEC APC's: two mono, one color. There are manuals and operating system diskettes." jhorn5555 at yahoo.com --------------------------------------------------------- Contact her to get your very own NEC APC computer. They have freaky-cool 8-inch floppy drives. From vrs at msn.com Mon Apr 5 18:57:35 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:57:35 -0700 Subject: eBay disaster References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> Message-ID: From: "Philipp Hachtmann", Monday, April 05, 2010 2:54 PM Subject: eBay disaster > Hi folks, > > could someone please explain me THIS? > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 Well, one thing that is interesting is that your auction never came up in any of my searches, even though at least three of my searches that run daily should have found it. Something similar happened recently to another colleague a couple of months ago; searches never found his stuff, and I only knew about his auctions from his mention of them in alt.sys.pdp8. Vince From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 5 19:02:27 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 17:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: *free* NEC APC in Schenectady, NY In-Reply-To: <808815.684.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <692323.4228.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 4/5/10, steven stengel wrote: > Contact her to get your very own NEC APC computer. > They have freaky-cool 8-inch floppy drives. *pounce* What luck! I live in Schenectady! (well, technically Niskayuna, but the border is all of a mile from here...) -Ian From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 19:04:31 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 17:04:31 -0700 Subject: *free* NEC APC in Schenectady, NY In-Reply-To: <692323.4228.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <808815.684.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <692323.4228.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Mon, 4/5/10, steven stengel wrote: >> Contact her to get your very own NEC APC computer. >> They have freaky-cool 8-inch floppy drives. > > *pounce* > > What luck! I live in Schenectady! (well, technically Niskayuna, but the border is all of a mile from here...) > > -Ian > Ian--- Are you taking all 3 of them? Mark From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Apr 5 19:08:40 2010 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 17:08:40 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: eBay disaster Message-ID: <5337373.1270512520732.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> well, you got what you listed then. eBay is no way a guarantee of getting a good price. You wanted a better price? Then you needed to set a minimum or a reserve price. If it sold then great, if it didn't then keep it longer or lower your price. English only, fine. You already have decided that I don't know what I am doing. I have only been selling on eBay since the late nineteen-hundreds. You asked for ideas and then discounted them. What you did - didn't work. Maybe you will be luckier next time. regards, Steve Thatcher BTW, missed the photo of an actual disk pack - It was buried farther down. The only thing I remembered from the listing was seeing a box and a comment about language. -----Original Message----- >From: Philipp Hachtmann >Sent: Apr 5, 2010 3:26 PM >To: General Discussion at null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null at null >Subject: Re: eBay disaster > > >> I am assuming that you were hoping for a higher selling price... >Yes, of course! > >> First of all, you should have set a reserve price on the auction or a minimum bid of what you >> wanted to "at least" get from the auction. >Puh.. A minimum is possible. But a reserve? I feel uncomfortable when I see this "reserve not met" >thing in other auctions. So I don't really like that idea. > >> The buyer (whatever his rating) may have just signed >> up. >Yes. That's the reason why I refused to limit the group of people who are allowed to bid. If this >should turn out to be a scam, I'll think different when it comes to further offers. > >> I think I would have included the native language write up rather than just in English. >Oh, why? Because of my bad English? The chance to sell this kind of stuff to someone in Germany is >quite a bit lower than selling it to elsewhere (i.e. US) in the world. So I decided to write in >English only. > >> Second, sometimes just a picture of a box is just what a buyer gets. I would have taken pictures >> of the box insides or even included a stock photo of what the disk pack is that is in the box. >If you looked at the pictures I have put onto the auction you should have seen that I actually have >photographed a pack lying on the box. Another one, of course. I did not want to open the box - >opening the box would have spoiled the whole thing. > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 5 19:10:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 17:10:04 -0700 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de>, Message-ID: <4BBA196C.251.1512A83@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2010 at 16:57, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Well, one thing that is interesting is that your auction never > came up in any of my searches, even though at least three of my > searches that run daily should have found it. A good policy is to make people on related net lists and fora aware of your auction. Posting something here as well as in the DEC section of Erik's Vintage Computer Forum might have helped matters. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 5 19:33:18 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 17:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBA196C.251.1512A83@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de>, <4BBA196C.251.1512A83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A good policy is to make people on related net lists and fora aware > of your auction. Posting something here as well as in the DEC > section of Erik's Vintage Computer Forum might have helped matters. While on one hand posting auctions here would most likely be frowned upon, I for one wouldn't mind seeing truely rare items that are up for auction mentioned. Especially something like a NIB RK05 pack! Having said that there isn't much I'm looking for, though there are a few DEC and Commodore items I'd bid on. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 5 19:38:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 17:38:26 -0700 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <20100405131539.D18344@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4BB9C590.30930.995BC@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100405131539.D18344@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BBA2012.22058.16B1FF6@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Apr 2010 at 13:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > I never used an 084, either. Vacuum? photocell?? 2000 CPM??? WOW! > Must have been 082s. Were there any earlier minimal models without > counters? ISTR some elation over upgrade. I went to the bitsavers document on the 082, 083 and 084 sorters. The counter was an option for all three--it could count total read as well as the number in each pocket. There were some other fancy options, including alpha sort and a 10-column brush with a mini plugboard for the 082 and 083 to do all manner of fancy combination sorts. I never saw any of the esoteric options. The 084 had a 3600-card feed hopper. That means that the beast would empty it in less than 2 minutes! The operating notes state that you didn't need to "joggle" the cards (another IBM term) on the 084 as it was "self-joggling". Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Apr 5 20:07:45 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:07:45 -0500 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BBA8961.2010608@oldskool.org> Don't set a minimum bid of 1 dollar/1 euro/etc. if you aren't willing to sell it for that little. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. If you wanted at least 30 or 40 euros for it, you should have put that as the minimum bid. On 4/5/2010 4:54 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > could someone please explain me THIS? > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 > > I don't sell on eBay very often. And from time to time I see people > paying astronomical sums for more or less junk. But this time it was me > offering stuff - and what did I get? I have no clue who would sell me a > used RK05 disk pack in unknown condition for that price. But this was a > new in a box one....! > > What did I do wrong? > Was it the winner of the auction who has 0 eBay points? There was > absolutely no trace of fraud on my side. I did neither bid with another > account nor did I even ask someone to bid on my auctions to drive up the > price. That's what I got from it. I hope that the lucky 0 points high > bidder on my pack is someone who really exists... > > Regards, > > Philipp > > > > > > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Apr 5 20:09:05 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 18:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ampro "Little Board" boot disk? In-Reply-To: <13A49EA96D00@dunfield.com> References: <12634FD6671C@dunfield.com> <13A49EA96D00@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> Can anyone help? >>> I would also like to add the boot disk image to the archive as well. >>> >> >> Just yesterday I put disk images of all the Ampro stuff I had up. They're >> here: http://www.retroarchive.org/hardware/ampro/index.html > > Thanks Gene, > > I got them. I took the liberty of converting them to indicate 250kbps data > rate (standard for DSDD) and made them available in my site. > Cool. Thanks Dave. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From brain at jbrain.com Mon Apr 5 21:28:20 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:28:20 -0500 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de>, <4BBA196C.251.1512A83@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BBA9C44.2040805@jbrain.com> On 4/5/2010 7:33 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > While on one hand posting auctions here would most likely be frowned > upon, I Hmm, I did not know that. I must have broke the rules by posting the PC-4 stuff on here a while back. Jim From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 5 21:45:55 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 22:45:55 -0400 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> Message-ID: <201004052245.56288.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 05 April 2010, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > What did I do wrong? As others have suggested, I'd either have put a higher starting bid, or make it a Buy-it-now sale, with "best offer", for what you expect to get out of it. I find that I can generally sell things for a higher price that way than I can with an auction. It doesn't work for everything, but it usually works well enough for what I list. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 22:00:13 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 00:00:13 -0300 Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? References: <01CAD4D1.EF92A920@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <14da01cad535$50f7f1d0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > bit and pipe it into A11 on a larger CHRGEN ROM, but how do you get 3 > or 4 sets from one bit? Using a shift register :) From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Apr 5 22:40:10 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:40:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some original "IBM" software - $5 each Message-ID: <957089.20997.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Gene wrote to me: Contact Gene below if interested: ---------------------------------------------------- "I have a bunch of very old IBM software in original boxes that I would like to find a home for. I hate to throw them way when I know there must be those who would love to acquire them. $5 each + shipping. Ami Pro, Writing Assistant, Professional Write, Professional File, Professional Plan, QA3, Word Perfect and more Contact Gene at: ygehrich at yahoo.com ---------------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 6 00:32:35 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 01:32:35 -0400 Subject: *free* NEC APC in Schenectady, NY In-Reply-To: References: <808815.684.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <692323.4228.qm@web52607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2010, at 8:04 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>> Contact her to get your very own NEC APC computer. >>> They have freaky-cool 8-inch floppy drives. >> >> *pounce* >> >> What luck! I live in Schenectady! (well, technically Niskayuna, >> but the border is all of a mile from here...) > > Are you taking all 3 of them? I was about to ask him the same thing. Ian? =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Apr 6 00:38:03 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:38:03 +0100 Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (wasRe: HamurabiFocal source)) In-Reply-To: <4BB9EA65.4040409@bitsavers.org> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com><20100401123719.D51602@shell.lmi.net> <4BB50768.9030403@bitsavers.org><950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> <4BB9EA65.4040409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: That would be the same IBM who refer to hard disks as dazdi's! Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ?????ANSI X12 - EANCOM - TRADACOMS ? EDI Consulting Ltd ? Phone? 0118 971 4436 Email?? rodsmallwood at btconnect.com ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: 05 April 2010 14:49 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (wasRe: HamurabiFocal source)) On 4/5/10 1:07 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > As to punched cards I never heard the rectangular punchings referred to as > 'chips' on either side of the Atlantic. > I refer you, then, to most IBM punched card documentation on bitsavers. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/cardProc/22-8485-3_operGuide_Sep56.pdf page 13, for example: "Chip Box Slightly to the right of the machine, as you look at it from the rear, is a removable box, which is the receptacle for the punching chips as they are cut out. This box can be easily removed, when necessary, by lifting a catch that locks it into position. The chip box should be removed and emptied daily." From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 13:13:36 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Northstar Horizon boot disks In-Reply-To: <8DFF883384C@dunfield.com> References: <12A20EC40EF5@dunfield.com> <8DFF883384C@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Where can I get ahold of the image for that ROM monitor? I have a Horizon >> here that came with 9 boxes of hard-sectored diskettes. Unfortunately all >> of them are blank :-). Any tips on bootstrapping my way into a functional >> system would be greatly appreciated. > > I've been handing it out on a request basis, however I've just updated the > Horizon tools on my web site to include the monitor (source and tools to > build it) as well as updated the documentation with some hints on how to > go about making it work. > > Go to "Download simulators and emulators" near the end of the main page, > and get the Horizon simulator - the simulator also includes all the tools > to bootstrap and transfer disk images to real NorthStar based systems. The > package includes bootable Double and Single density NorthStar DOS disk > images which you can customize (using the simulator) if needed. Once you > get the system up and running, check my site for other NorthStar images > which may be useful to you. Thanks! I had noticed the addition just minutes after I made that first posting (don't think it was there the last time I looked). The CPU board on my Horizon does not have the EPROM option populated, but I was able to scrounge up the parts and will add it myself. It would really be lovely if a Catweasel driver with N* hard-sector write support existed. I may look into this at some point. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 13:23:14 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300> References: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > A few weeks back I purchased a Tandberg TDC 4120 drive at a recycler.For some > reason I like collecting different tape drives and removable media, maybe > just incase I find media with data I want to restore. > > Browsing ebay I found 6 new QIC 1000 tapes for it starting at $1 with $5 > shipping "IMATION MAGNUS 46165 QIC 1000- 1.2 GB-B NEW" and put in a bid > thinking nobody uses this stuff anymore. With 30 minutes currently left it > has hit $117.50 and all the bids are users with 2000+ feedback. So are these > things that rare, or do people snag it up to keep the prices expensive for > corporate users who need tapes? I can't really see a company needing new > tapes (1.2GB) these days, drives maybe to restore files but not new tapes. My goodness... I probably have 40-50 of these sitting in storage, although only a few are unused. Do folks really use QIC-1000 drives anymore? -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 13:28:56 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: N* Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Apr 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I am working at bringing up a N* Horizon system and have some questions. At > present, I don't have any system software and am attempting to determine > basic functionality. > > The box currently has a Z80-A CPU card, HRAM64 memory card and an MDS-AD3 > hard-sectored floppy controller (others have been removed temporarily). There > are two built-in SA-400 SS 5.25" drives. > > Other cards that came with the unit include a Compupro bus terminator, A > Morrow Disk Jockey 2D/B 8" controller and a Morrow HDCA-4A hard disk > controller. Unfortunately, the 8" Morrow hard disk emitted some magic smoke > at power up and I have not done any further troubleshooting yet. Anyone know > anything about Memorex 8" drive mechanisms? > > At power up, the system tries to boot the first floppy drive, then gives up > after 10-15 seconds. I take this as a sign that some life exists. Then, I > connected a PC running ProComm Plus to the left serial port, but cannot get > any reponse or output there. > > So, problem 1: > > Where are baud rate settings documented? I can find pinouts for assigning > signals on the DB25 connector, but not a mention of baud rate. > > Is it possible to obtain any sort of monitor prompt in the absence of a > booted system? Doesn't the floppy controller have some sort of ROM monitor > on-board? > > Any tips for getting a terminal connection operational? I have played with > handshake signals a bit, and it sure looks like both parties have the > necessary lines in the necessary states for communication to occur. Following up my own post: I did find the baud rate jumper hiding in plain sight on a different page of the backplane manual. I've also concluded that there is no reason to expect a monitor prompt from the system, seeing as there is no monitor ROM. I did not realize that the disk controller PROM is only a rudimentary bootstrap loader :-). I'm planning to populate the EPROM option on the CPU card and install a copy of Dave Dunfield's little transfer program to see if I get things running. Still do need some information on the Memorex drive mechanism. It was sold as a Morrow M-20 disk system, but I cannot find a shred of information on the drive itself. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 5 20:14:10 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: N* Question In-Reply-To: <146DAD0E0716@dunfield.com> References: <146DAD0E0716@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Without a boot disk, your only option is to make use of the 1K ROM socket on > the CPU card - it takes a 2708, but you can build an adapter to use a larger > device if you don't have or can't program a 2708 - you can even use something > like the Dallas battery-backed-up RAM chips (**) which make erase/program > cycles very fast -keep in mind that you don't need it to look pretty - you > only need it until you have a boot disk up and running, and you can put the > CPU back a couple of slots to allow room for the adapter. I have a couple of 2708s in the parts drawer and my Andromeda programmer can handle them. All set there. > (** if you go this route, know that the DS chips have a power-monitor which may > not release until after the simple CPU reset circuit - so you may have to power- > up and then issue a reset to get it to start properly). > > The console will probably be at 9600 (unless someone has changed it). Check the > jumpers to be sure. > > As noted above, make sure you can deselect a suitable area of the memory map to > make room for the monitor. > > Remove anything un-necessary when getting the monitor up and running - that means > pull the FDC (and the 8" one if you haven't already) - since my monitor does not > require RAM, you can pull the RAM card as well - so all you will have in the system > at first is the CPU. > > Set the ROM address, and POJ (power-on-jump) headers to the address where you origned > the code for the ROM (I provide a utility that will show you the correct settings for > any given address). > > If the monitor does not "come up", and you have access to a scope, check out the > ddress us while it is running - since it will be sitting in a very tight loop, you > should see a recognizable pattern - several cycles within the ROM address space (only > the lower few address lines should toggle) and one access to the UART I/O address. > > If that doesn't seem right, then you can use tricks like tying the ROM select to the > wait line - it should halt at the startng address of the ROM. Also, with a storage > scope and a little patience, you can capture the first few bus cycles - you should > be able to see the power-on-jump address at the beginning. ... But this is getting > beyond the scope of this reply. > > Once you see it's running it's polling loop, then you can track down the accesses > to the UART to debug it at the hardware level if necessary. > > Once you get to the monitor '>' prompt, you are well on your way! > > Put the RAM card back in, and verfy that the monitor still runs (ie: you did de- > select a block for it properly) - then use it to write and readback some locations > where there should be RAM and confirm that it appears to be there and holds it's > content. > > Then put the N*FDC back in and confirm that the monitor runs - from there, you can > proceed to the documentation in my simulator/NST package which should give you > enough information to create a boot disk (Assuming the FDC works - debugging that > is another excercise). Cool! Thanks _so_ much for taking the time to write that up. Will let you know how it works out. Steve -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Apr 5 22:43:09 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:43:09 -0500 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <20100405131539.D18344@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20100401120946.V50481@shell.lmi.net>, <4BB831E2.6080604@tx.rr.com> <4BB9C590.30930.995BC@cclist.sydex.com> <20100405131539.D18344@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BBAADCD.2030603@tx.rr.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> On 4 Apr 2010 at 1:29, CSquared wrote: >>> I do remember the 084 was one more screaming fast card sorter; I >>> rather suspect that brush bounce etc. was just too much to cope with to >>> achieve reliable operation at that speed. I'm trying unsuccessfully to >>> remember just what the read rate was for the 084. Anyone remember? > > Change from brushes to photocells was essential to getting the speed up. > > On Mon, 5 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> One doesn't need a memory with the web. From the Columbia university >> web site http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/sorter.html: >> Type 84 19?? 2000 cpm >> "For some reason, IBM didn't produce a card reader that operated at >> 2000 cpm. The 084 was unique in that it used a vacuum-assist card- >> feed mechanism that did not require the use of a card-weight, as the >> cards were held against the throat and picker knives by suction. The >> 084 also used an optical method of detecting card punches instead of >> the wire brush used by earlier models. " >> I never got to use an 084, just an 082--there must have been a >> jillion of those in service. > > I never used an 084, either. Vacuum? photocell?? 2000 CPM??? WOW! > Must have been 082s. Were there any earlier minimal models without > counters? ISTR some elation over upgrade. I was thinking 2000 per minute for the 084, but that seemed a bit outlandish and I was too lazy to search for it. I think I only had one in my territory, at an insurance company. They later got a 108 "Statistical Card Proving Machine" too which was a bit unusual in our area. I only recall seeing one other one. I'd forgotten the 082 ran at 1000 cards per minute, which is not too shabby either. > > > Without refressh, wetware dynamic RAM decays. > Since there isn't adequate ECC, > the mind lets it pass with incorrect data! > Sorry. Don't be sorry, I love it! I think the appreciation for things like this grows the older one gets. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Apr 5 22:48:07 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:48:07 -0500 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <4BB9C590.30930.995BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100401120946.V50481@shell.lmi.net>, <4BB831E2.6080604@tx.rr.com> <4BB9C590.30930.995BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BBAAEF7.4030801@tx.rr.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Apr 2010 at 1:29, CSquared wrote: > >> I do remember the 084 was one more screaming fast card sorter; I >> rather suspect that brush bounce etc. was just too much to cope with to >> achieve reliable operation at that speed. I'm trying unsuccessfully to >> remember just what the read rate was for the 084. Anyone remember? > > One doesn't need a memory with the web. From the Columbia university > web site http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/sorter.html: > > Type 84 19?? 2000 cpm > > "For some reason, IBM didn't produce a card reader that operated at > 2000 cpm. The 084 was unique in that it used a vacuum-assist card- > feed mechanism that did not require the use of a card-weight, as the > cards were held against the throat and picker knives by suction. The > 084 also used an optical method of detecting card punches instead of > the wire brush used by earlier models. " > > I never got to use an 084, just an 082--there must have been a > jillion of those in service. > > --Chuck > > Yep, at least a jillion. They were everywhere, and 1000 CPM is pretty decent too. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Apr 5 23:10:19 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:10:19 -0500 Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: HamurabiFocal source)) In-Reply-To: <950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> References: <01CAD19E.E0D9F9A0@MSE_D03> <4BB491E8.17675.103CAF5@cclist.sydex.com><20100401123719.D51602@shell.lmi.net> <4BB50768.9030403@bitsavers.org> <950DB261F7234EE993B1580D50F43CA0@RodsDevSystem> Message-ID: <4BBAB42B.9050408@tx.rr.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > I worked with cards and paper tape in both the US and UK between 1970 and > 1980. 'Chad' normally referred to paper tape punchings on both teletypes and > high speed punches. The receptacle into which they went was called a 'chad > box'. You could tell new users because they would try to tip the contents > into a paper bin. It blew everywhere and the static made it stick. > We used an industrial vacuum with an earthed nozzle to empty the box and > clear the chutes. > > As to punched cards I never heard the rectangular punchings referred to as > 'chips' on either side of the Atlantic. > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 01 April 2010 21:52 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: chips (was Re: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: > HamurabiFocal source)) > > On 4/1/10 12:50 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> ("Hanging Chad") > > There is no such thing. They are called 'chips'. They went > into a "chip bucket". The name is documented in the service > and users manuals for punched card (NOT "punch card") devices. > > Repeating incorrect information is not helpful. > > > FWIW, I always called the little rectangles punched out of cards "chips" as did everyone I worked with in the early 60s in the US. You've reminded me of the fortunately rare freak of nature called a chip jam. In an IBM 1402 it was a sight to behold. I never really understood how they got started since the chip bucket in the 1402 was pretty huge. I've wondered if they started from the top down or vice versa. It would be an interesting experiment to try to repeat while recording a video, except that one would have to punch an awful lot of cards to get it to happen. I wish now I'd taken a picture of one. Of course it became less beautiful when you started cleaning it up. I do recall discussions of chad versus chadless paper tape, though I don't remember when. The difference was whether the round holes were fully punched out and discarded or left attached by a bit of a paper "hinge". Later, Charlie C. From marvin at west.net Tue Apr 6 01:19:20 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:19:20 -0700 Subject: eBay disaster Message-ID: <4BBAD268.8000700@west.net> Did you do any market research before listing? I have no idea what a new disk pack would be worth, but obviously not a lot to the people who buy on ebay. In checking past US auctions for the past 90 days, there were only five listings and the highest price paid was about $15.00. On top of that, each auction had very few buyers; that tells me NOT to start the listing at one Euro. But the 15 Euros or so you got was still higher than anything sold here in the US. What did you expect (hope) it to sell for? > could someone please explain me THIS? > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 > > What did I do wrong? > > Regards, > > Philipp From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Apr 6 02:05:21 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 09:05:21 +0200 Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? References: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300> Message-ID: <9BB18477F9964F70A3E4A8B43BA1B067@udvikling> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 8:23 PM Subject: Re: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? > On Sun, 4 Apr 2010, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> A few weeks back I purchased a Tandberg TDC 4120 drive at a recycler.For >> some reason I like collecting different tape drives and removable media, >> maybe just incase I find media with data I want to restore. >> >> Browsing ebay I found 6 new QIC 1000 tapes for it starting at $1 with $5 >> shipping "IMATION MAGNUS 46165 QIC 1000- 1.2 GB-B NEW" and put in a bid >> thinking nobody uses this stuff anymore. With 30 minutes currently left >> it has hit $117.50 and all the bids are users with 2000+ feedback. So are >> these things that rare, or do people snag it up to keep the prices >> expensive for corporate users who need tapes? I can't really see a >> company needing new tapes (1.2GB) these days, drives maybe to restore >> files but not new tapes. > > My goodness... I probably have 40-50 of these sitting in storage, > although only a few are unused. Do folks really use QIC-1000 drives > anymore? > > > > > -- > > From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Apr 6 02:06:24 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 09:06:24 +0200 Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? References: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300> Message-ID: <8528F85C5E704F67B84FA2C5391AF208@udvikling> >> >> Browsing ebay I found 6 new QIC 1000 tapes for it starting at $1 with $5 >> shipping "IMATION MAGNUS 46165 QIC 1000- 1.2 GB-B NEW" and put in a bid >> thinking nobody uses this stuff anymore. With 30 minutes currently left >> it has hit $117.50 and all the bids are users with 2000+ feedback. So are >> these things that rare, or do people snag it up to keep the prices >> expensive for corporate users who need tapes? I can't really see a >> company needing new tapes (1.2GB) these days, drives maybe to restore >> files but not new tapes. > > My goodness... I probably have 40-50 of these sitting in storage, > although only a few are unused. Do folks really use QIC-1000 drives > anymore? > > Well, some people are buying 8" and 5.25" floppies, so why no QIC-1000 tapes? From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Apr 6 02:11:11 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 03:11:11 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? Message-ID: <01CAD537.5197C960@MSE_D03> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 18:18:33 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? On 4/5/10, M H Stein wrote: > ----------------Original Message: > > Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 02:13:20 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? > It would certainly be nice to find the 'official' ROM, but I thought that > the ROM that Philip (the owner of that PET on your bench) created > was pretty well complete and correct; it seems to match my Japanese > keyboard perfectly except for one character, and I suspect it's the key > that's wrong and not the CG. Why would the key be wrong? *MS: What I meant was that one of my keys might have been replaced; the picture of the chiclet keyboard has a Yen symbol, the normal graphic symbol and a Japanese character where the \ key usually is, whereas my keyboard just has the normal \ and graphic symbol. --- > Did you try that image and match it up to your Japanese chiclet > keyboard? I have not. If you could send me a copy of it off-list, that would be appreciated. I don't seem to have it in the place I store such things (though I do remember the conversation). *MS: I'll send you the binaries, character charts and pics of the keyboard off-list. --- > I've been playing with the idea of having all three (four?) character sets > available on screen at the same time, using the reverse video signal. How would that work? Obviously, you'd use some new means of toggling upper bits on the CHRGEN ROM, but I don't get how the reverse video signal would be the trigger... the upper bit on a PET character cell inverts the data out of the bit shifter (unlike the C-64 where it's just another address bit). I can see how you could steal that upper bit and pipe it into A11 on a larger CHRGEN ROM, but how do you get 3 or 4 sets from one bit? *MS: As you know, PETS have two mutually exclusive sets, upper/lower case or upper case/graphics; when you install the Japanese characters you have to give up at least one of those half-sets and you can't for example have Japanese characters and upper/lower Roman characters on the same screen, not to mention graphics. I haven't looked at the older PETs to see if/how it might be feasible, but the newer ones with a CRT controller have provision for selecting an alternate character set with one of the unused address lines, so I thought it might be easily possible to use that somehow, perhaps even connecting it to the reverse video signal so that the RVS on/off key would select the alternate set on an individual character basis and allow mixing (e.g.) Japanese, upper, lower and graphics characters, all on the same screen instead of switching the mode of the whole screen with the text/graphic poke. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Apr 6 02:40:50 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 03:40:50 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?PET_4032_keyboard_scanning_problem_=2F_was_Re=3A?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Anyone_have_an_image_of=09a_Japanese_PET_chrgen_ROM_90?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?1447=2D12=3F?= Message-ID: <01CAD53B.2AAF51C0@MSE_D03> -----------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 16:28:58 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? Speaking of early Commodore PETs, I have here a 4032 on which some of the keys do not work. Some time ago I took a brief look at it and, as I recall, concluded the problem was not the keyboard but rather something was messed up with the scanning, something like not all columns/rows being scanned. I think it was a 6821 or 6822 or some such doing the I/O, but the diagnosis was perhaps more suggestive of something like a PROM bit failure causing the firmware program to foreshorten the scan sequence. Anyone have knowledge of a known failure mode of this sort with these machines? --------------------Reply: The most common problem is just oxidation and/or wear of the rubber 'contacts' and the PCB grid; if you're lucky a good cleaning will clear it up, in case of bad wear of the conductive pads you may have to recoat them with conductive paint ot glue little pads of aluminum foil or aluminized mylar on to them. Electronically they are a normal scanned matrix, driven by a 6520 PIA (UB12?) and a muliplexer; if there is a problem there then it would most likely be with all the keys in a certain row or column. I suppose it's possible, but I'd be very surprised if it were a bad ROM. Check the schematic and you should be able to jumper across the appropriate keyboard lines to test all the rows and columns. http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/8032/8032029-03.gif From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Apr 6 04:01:31 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:01:31 +0100 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Subject: eBay disaster > > What did I do wrong? Maybe you didn't use the right words in the title line. My ebay search terms do not include 'beyond', 'rare' or 'new', they are fine for the main description but the title is too precious for them. The words 'computer' and either 'classic' or 'old' or even 'vintage' for instance would have been more useful. Some ebayers might even have an exclusion for new items by using -new. I wish ebay would divide computers into decades or generations, I find it useless using eBay categories or I end looking through 90s, 80s and for me even 70s stuff for hours looking for probably just one computer item from the early 1960s, often none at all. Roger Holmes (owner of a 1962 mainframe) From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Apr 6 04:11:53 2010 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:11:53 +0100 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk> > > From: "Chuck Guzis" > >> I wonder if "chad" had origins with teletypes and paper tape, an >> industry (telephone) separate from the punched card / data processing >> industry way back when, and in which different terminology developed. > > Dunno, but either was fun to hide in a friend's drawer or light > fixture. Paper tape punches were far nastier than the ones from > punched cards. Why nastier? The card ones are thicker (7 thou) and have sharp square corners. I think the first time I heard about them (in the UK) the card ones were called chads. It in a warning from our lecturer not to use them as confetti as he knew of a case of them getting into the bride's eye and she spent the next few hours in hospital because of them. I think the holes were oblong so that the sideways on (row at a time) brushes of old IBM equipment could get through them easier. I don't think brushes would be able to read them a column at a time. By the way, I have some 80 column cards punched with round holes, two holes for each oblong one, and they were described as 160 column cards. Roger Holmes From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Apr 6 04:27:43 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:27:43 +0100 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBA5B62.894C30A4@cs.ubc.ca> References: <422936.91353.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BBA5B62.894C30A4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: As ASR33's were the terminal of choice (leastways on DEC they were) You might say in the US communications and data merged at that point. Teleprinters used five level Baudot code and Teletypes used ASCII. In fact as very junior engineer in the late 1960's whilst working at Harwell I designed and built a box to drive Creed M75 tele-printers(We had loads of them) from a serial ascii output on a PDP8. Great fun .. a shift register to clock in the serial data. A Karnaugh mapped diode matrix to change the codes from ASCII to Baudot. A character buffer made from bistables and another shift register to go from parallel back to serial. It only worked because the Creed was faster than the TTY output from the PDP8. Integrated circuits used er none! Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: 05 April 2010 22:52 To: General at invalid.domain; Discussion at invalid.domain :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: chips vs chad Somebody might check some manuals for teletypes or paper-tape punches for the 'official term' used for the punch detritus from paper tape. TMR, the box on the side of the teletype paper tape punch was commonlny called the chad box. I wonder if "chad" had origins with teletypes and paper tape, an industry (telephone) separate from the punched card / data processing industry way back when, and in which different terminology developed. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Tue Apr 6 06:02:19 2010 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 07:02:19 -0400 Subject: eBay disaster Message-ID: <20100406110219.AA13FBA557A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > could someone please explain me THIS? > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 I myself have put up something for sale that I was sure was "dear" and "valuable" and "rare", and it got no bids at all. Obviously the rest of the world didn't agree. Certainly telling the whole broad world that what you have is rarer then hen's teeth and ultra-desirable is a common ploy, so common that it means little. I'm guessing that the people who use RK05 packs have metric buttloads of them and don't need anymore, new or not. Certainly that describes the existing RK05 users I know of. Tim. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 6 07:31:54 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 05:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: <8528F85C5E704F67B84FA2C5391AF208@udvikling> from Nico de Jong at "Apr 6, 10 09:06:24 am" Message-ID: <201004061231.o36CVtkW011950@floodgap.com> > > My goodness... I probably have 40-50 of these sitting in storage, > > although only a few are unused. Do folks really use QIC-1000 drives > > anymore? > > Well, some people are buying 8" and 5.25" floppies, so why no QIC-1000 > tapes? FTR, I use QIC tapes for my Alpha Micro systems (in this case QIC-525s but the 300 can use -1000s also). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computer geeks don't byte; we just nybble. --------------------------------- From vrs at msn.com Tue Apr 6 08:41:18 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:41:18 -0700 Subject: eBay disaster References: <20100406110219.AA13FBA557A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: From: "Tim Shoppa", Tuesday, April 06, 2010 4:02 AM > I'm guessing that the people who use RK05 packs have metric buttloads > of them and don't need anymore, new or not. Certainly that describes > the existing RK05 users I know of. I have a plenty of PDP-11 packs, but I'd sure be interested in PDP-8 packs. Vince From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 6 10:25:04 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:25:04 -0700 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <20100406110219.AA13FBA557A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20100406110219.AA13FBA557A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:02:19 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: eBay disaster > From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com > > > could someone please explain me THIS? > > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 > > I myself have put up something for sale that I was sure was "dear" > and "valuable" and "rare", and it got no bids at all. Obviously the rest > of the world didn't agree. > > Certainly telling the whole broad world that what you have is rarer > then hen's teeth and ultra-desirable is a common ploy, so common that > it means little. > > I'm guessing that the people who use RK05 packs have metric buttloads > of them and don't need anymore, new or not. Certainly that describes > the existing RK05 users I know of. > > Tim. Hi Such words as rare or vintage in the title are a waste and often are so over used that they may even cause the auction to be over looked. I suspect his main problem is that there are few people that have drives that use these platters. Without notifying them that there is one available it is unlikely that they look every day. Advertising is needed. Some items, new in the box, are worth much more than a used one out of the box. I don't think a disk platter should get much more than 1.5 to 2 times the price. It just isn't the type of item one would want to put in a glass case to look at. In most cases, a combination of poor title and lack of advertising in the right places are the most common causes of poor sales. As for searches, I found that one has to explicitly select locations when not in the US. I doubt any of the US searches ever even saw the platter. This didn't used to be true but seems to be that way now ( good work ebay ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 6 10:43:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 08:43:08 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk> References: , <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2010 at 10:11, Roger Holmes wrote: > Why nastier? The card ones are thicker (7 thou) and have sharp square > corners. I think the first time I heard about them (in the UK) the > card ones were called chads. It in a warning from our lecturer not to > use them as confetti as he knew of a case of them getting into the > bride's eye and she spent the next few hours in hospital because of > them. The paper tape chad is much smaller than the card (chips,chad) and much more difficult to get out of one's hair. If one wanted to play a prank, it was best done on a dry cold winter's day when static electricity would play hob with the things sticking to everything in sight. The punched card (chips,chad) being much thicker and larger was somewhat easier to deal with. Another artifact of the old days is 1/2" tape write rings. At CDC Sunnyvale, there were very high (ca 14') ceilings on the machine floor, which made it a perfect environment for playing ring-toss onto the fluorescent light fixtures when one had a couple of hours of block time in the middle of the night and nothing to do but wait while a job completed. One rarely used them for their intended purpose--it was possible to reach behind a mounted tape with a couple of punched cards and toggle the latching write sensor. --Chuck From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Apr 6 11:03:41 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 12:03:41 -0400 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk> <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BBB5B5D.3090800@attglobal.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The paper tape chad is much smaller than the card (chips,chad) and > much more difficult to get out of one's hair. If one wanted to play > a prank, it was best done on a dry cold winter's day when static > electricity would play hob with the things sticking to everything in > sight. When I was in college my roommate pranked me by filling my pair of deerskin, lined gloves with chips. I was getting the damned chips jammed under my fingernails when I put the gloves on a few years later. Barry -- From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Tue Apr 6 13:32:30 2010 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 20:32:30 +0200 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BBB7E3E.2040507@bluewin.ch> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > could someone please explain me THIS? > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 > > I don't sell on eBay very often. And from time to time I see people > paying astronomical sums for more or less junk. But this time it was > me offering stuff - and what did I get? I have no clue who would sell > me a used RK05 disk pack in unknown condition for that price. But this > was a new in a box one....! > > What did I do wrong? > Philipp, you did not complain when you where on the winning end of a similar deal ! Live with it, it is is just Ebay..... Jos From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 13:33:17 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:33:17 -0400 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? Message-ID: Hello, I'm repairing my A1010 Amiga external floppy drive - the actual drive works (tested by plugging it into the internal A500 floppy connector), so the fault should be on the latch board inside; there are two chips, a 74LS74 D Flip-Flop and one chip (also 14 pin) with number M53238P preceded by the Mitsubishi logo. Given the required function, and connections on the adapter board, I am 99% sure that it's a 74LS38 Quad NAND open-collector equivalent - but googling doesn't turn up a datasheet, just a gazillion chinese parts vendors. Can someone just confirm this in a cross-reference? Or a A1010 schematic? Or their own drive? Thanks, Joe. PS. Symptom is that the drive clicks but never spins. I've already taken out the chips and replaced them - this time in sockets. So if I'm wrong it's a simple matter of undoing the 20-odd screws yet again (Verdammte Post mit deren entstoerregelungen von damals...) and replacing the chip. I just want to double-check before plugging it into the A500 again tonight. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 13:39:21 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:39:21 -0500 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Can someone just > confirm this in a cross-reference? Or a A1010 schematic? Or their own > drive? > It's the same mechanism in an amiga 1000 (iirc) if anyone has that instead. I have an a1010 floating around somewhere, but I'm not much of a hardware person. If no one else beats me to it, I'll see if I can find it. brian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 6 13:41:34 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:41:34 -0700 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com > Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:33:17 -0400 > Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Hello, > I'm repairing my A1010 Amiga external floppy drive - the actual drive > works (tested by plugging it into the internal A500 floppy connector), > so the fault should be on the latch board inside; there are two chips, > a 74LS74 D Flip-Flop and one chip (also 14 pin) with number M53238P > preceded by the Mitsubishi logo. Given the required function, and > connections on the adapter board, I am 99% sure that it's a 74LS38 > Quad NAND open-collector equivalent - but googling doesn't turn up a > datasheet, just a gazillion chinese parts vendors. Can someone just > confirm this in a cross-reference? Or a A1010 schematic? Or their own > drive? Hi Joe The 74LS38 may not have the current out needed. It may have needed a 7438. As I recall, these have a stronger drive ( I could be wrong here but that is what I remember ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 13:48:31 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:48:31 -0400 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 2:41 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Joe > ?The 74LS38 may not have the current out needed. It may have > needed a 7438. As I recall, these have a stronger drive ( I could > be wrong here but that is what I remember ). The 7438 does have a stronger current drive than a 74LS38, but I do not recall if the A1010 needs that or not. -ethan From onymouse at garlic.com Tue Apr 6 13:27:29 2010 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 11:27:29 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk> <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BBB7D11.4010608@garlic.com> On 04/06/2010 08:43 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The paper tape chad is much smaller than the card (chips,chad) and > much more difficult to get out of one's hair. If one wanted to play > a prank, it was best done on a dry cold winter's day when static > electricity would play hob with the things sticking to everything in > sight. > Imagine what some bored students can do with several large bags of chaff (dots punched out of paper tape), some wide masking tape, some wide tin foil, foil lined boxes, a galvanized bucket with a lid, shoe box lids, a largeish van de Graaf generator, some "borrowed" master keys to lockers, and a bit of free time during a very dry winter. == jd New members urgently required for SUICIDE CLUB, Watford area. -- Monty Python's Big Red Book -- From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 14:02:50 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:02:50 -0400 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 14:48, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The 7438 does have a stronger current drive than a 74LS38, but I do > not recall if the A1010 needs that or not. Hmmm, I could open it up again and check the value of the pull-up resistor pack - that should be a good indicator of the current the gates have to sink. Joe. (Brian, don't open the 1010 if you don't have to. It's a pain.) -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 14:05:18 2010 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:05:18 -0700 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> Message-ID: > could someone please explain me THIS? > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 > > I don't sell on eBay very often. And from time to time I see people paying > astronomical sums for more or less junk. But this time it was me offering > stuff - and what did I get? I have no clue who would sell me a used RK05 > disk pack in unknown condition for that price. But this was a new in a box > one....! > > What did I do wrong? I don't think you did anything wrong with your listing (maybe English only wasn't a good choice). I just think there is little demand for a new disk pack. There are very few of these drives left in existence. And the most likely buyer is going to be someone who is going to use the Disk. I sell old collectible equipment on eBay, and I am often surprised at how little it brings. I have learned to keep my expectations low, or put a reserve price on it. What I would have done would be to list the disk pack, not as an auction, but as a Buy it Now Sale with an Offer option. I would also put it up for 30 days at a price I would be happy selling it at. I have found this better than putting a truly rare item up for auction. The 30 days really helps also get more exposure. I feel it takes 100 page views to get a reasonable price. If you don't get that you risk selling low. Paxton Innfosale on eBay. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 6 14:37:56 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 12:37:56 -0700 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re:Anyone have an image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? References: <01CAD53B.2AAF51C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4BBB8D93.4427E5EA@cs.ubc.ca> M H Stein wrote: > > -----------------Original Message: > > Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 16:28:58 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an > image of a Japanese PET chrgen ROM 901447-12? > > Speaking of early Commodore PETs, I have here a 4032 on which some of the keys > do not work. Some time ago I took a brief look at it and, as I recall, > concluded the problem was not the keyboard but rather something was messed up > with the scanning, something like not all columns/rows being scanned. I think > it was a 6821 or 6822 or some such doing the I/O, but the diagnosis was perhaps > more suggestive of something like a PROM bit failure causing the firmware > program to foreshorten the scan sequence. > > Anyone have knowledge of a known failure mode of this sort with these machines? > > --------------------Reply: > > The most common problem is just oxidation and/or wear of the rubber 'contacts' > and the PCB grid; if you're lucky a good cleaning will clear it up, in case of bad > wear of the conductive pads you may have to recoat them with conductive paint > ot glue little pads of aluminum foil or aluminized mylar on to them. > > Electronically they are a normal scanned matrix, driven by a 6520 PIA (UB12?) > and a muliplexer; if there is a problem there then it would most likely be with all > the keys in a certain row or column. I suppose it's possible, but I'd be very > surprised if it were a bad ROM. > > Check the schematic and you should be able to jumper across the appropriate > keyboard lines to test all the rows and columns. > > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/schematics/computers/pet/8032/8032029-03.gif I had already checked the keyboard, it wasn't as simple as that. Your mention of the multiplexor reminds me (I had forgotten and thought the 6520 lines drove the scan directly) that the binary scan count from the 6520 to the multiplexor didn't seem to count high enough to do the full scan, more suggestive of a program error. It was a couple of years ago, and I didn't get through a full diagnosis. I was asking in case there was a known problem with the PROMs failing and producing random symptoms. ... pulled out my notes from 2004: I had scoped the lines from the 6520 to the '145 1-of-10 decoder, the observed 4-bit scan sequence driving the 145 is 09ABCDEF0 rather than 0->9, so only 2 lines instead of 10 on one side of the keyboard matrix are being scanned. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 6 14:37:15 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:37:15 +0200 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BBB8D6B.9080102@hachti.de> > Well, one thing that is interesting is that your auction never came up > in any of my searches, even though at least three of my > searches that run daily should have found it. That is interesting - bad. I assume that eBay doesn't show it if you don't do a worldwide search. Quite bad. -- http://www.hachti.de From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 13:54:27 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:54:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Apr 5, 10 11:54:38 pm Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > could someone please explain me THIS? > http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190385486840 > > I don't sell on eBay very often. And from time to time I see people paying astronomical sums for > more or less junk. But this time it was me offering stuff - and what did I get? I have no clue who > would sell me a used RK05 disk pack in unknown condition for that price. But this was a new in a box > one....! Well, one problem for ne (had I been looking for an RK05 pack) is that I have no idea what's inside that box, and nor apparently do you. I will believe that you are honest, and that uou truely believe there is a brand new and good 12 sector RK05 pack in there, but we don't _know_. It's possible it's been damaged at some time. it's possbie the plastic has fallen apart, or whatever. I'd rather hand a good used pack that one that I have no idea about. Of course the second problem is that the first thing I would do on receieving something like that is open the box and format the pack. So I wouldn't want to pay a premium price for an new unopened one (since I'll immediately lower the value). While the origianl box is nice to have, it is one more thing to store and not something I would be especially interested in. I haev found it's impossible to predict the prices that things will sell for on E-bay. Several times I've seen things with an opening bid of perhaps $5. I've thoguht that it was a rare an interesting item and put in a bid of $100 for it (and ecpected it to go for a lot more), only to find I end up winning it for the opening bid. Conversely there have been times when I've thought 'nobody will want that' and put in a sensible (if somewhat low) bid, only to find it sells for much more. > > What did I do wrong? My only thoguth is to set a reserve or a higher opening bid. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 13:58:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:58:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BB9FB4F.27981.DB86BB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 5, 10 03:01:35 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Apr 2010 at 14:51, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I wonder if "chad" had origins with teletypes and paper tape, an > > industry (telephone) separate from the punched card / data processing > > industry way back when, and in which different terminology developed. > > Dunno, but either was fun to hide in a friend's drawer or light > fixture. Paper tape punches were far nastier than the ones from > punched cards. Emptying a paper tape punch/teletype chad box into a cow-orkers briefcase was common over here ;-). A non-funny 'joke' is to empty it into the heater inlet of a cow-orker's car. It could cause a serious accident if said person turns on the blwer fan when drivign and get s 'snowstorm' in the car. And if a piece of chad ends up in his eye it could be very nasty. > > Maybe we should call them punched card holes in the spirit of > "doughnut holes"... (for the uninitiated, these are balls of fried > dough, ostensibly cut from the centers of doughnut blanks). Surely both are anti-holes? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 14:03:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 20:03:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an image of In-Reply-To: <4BBA7239.82ABE154@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 5, 10 04:28:58 pm Message-ID: > > Speaking of early Commodore PETs, I have here a 4032 on which some of the keys > do not work. Some time ago I took a brief look at it and, as I recall, > concluded the problem was not the keyboard but rather something was messed up > with the scanning, something like not all columns/rows being scanned. I think > it was a 6821 or 6822 or some such doing the I/O, but the diagnosis was perhaps > more suggestive of something like a PROM bit failure causing the firmware > program to foreshorten the scan sequence. Possible, I suppose, but unlikely. My first test would be to bridge the suspect row/column pin to all the column/row pins (one at a time) with a bit of wire at the keyboard connector to ensure the problem is on the logic board. I seem to rememebr (and it's been years since I've been inside a PET) that the scanning is doen by an output port on a PIA chip, decoded with a TTL decoder. And that the inmputs from the keybaord go to the other port of that PIA/VIA. I would then check that all the outputs of the decoder are active > > Anyone have knowledge of a known failure mode of this sort with these machines? > Many faults on PETs are caused by the very poor IC sockets used. Replacing them all with turned pin ones will cure said faults, and even if it doens't help now, (a) it will prevent such faults in th future and (b) it will tell you that you have a real fault to find. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 14:48:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 20:48:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Apr 6, 10 02:33:17 pm Message-ID: > > Hello, > I'm repairing my A1010 Amiga external floppy drive - the actual drive > works (tested by plugging it into the internal A500 floppy connector), > so the fault should be on the latch board inside; there are two chips, > a 74LS74 D Flip-Flop and one chip (also 14 pin) with number M53238P > preceded by the Mitsubishi logo. Given the required function, and > connections on the adapter board, I am 99% sure that it's a 74LS38 > Quad NAND open-collector equivalent - but googling doesn't turn up a I am pretty ssre it's the same pinout and function. I t may well haev differente drive caracteristics, but thit probably deosn't matter. A '38 whould work fine. > PS. Symptom is that the drive clicks but never spins. I've already > taken out the chips and replaced them - this time in sockets. So if > I'm wrong it's a simple matter of undoing the 20-odd screws yet again > (Verdammte Post mit deren entstoerregelungen von damals...) and Does that have an English translation that can bve used in polite compnay :-) > replacing the chip. I just want to double-check before plugging it > into the A500 again tonight. > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 6 14:55:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 20:55:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re:Anyone have an image In-Reply-To: <4BBB8D93.4427E5EA@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 6, 10 12:37:56 pm Message-ID: > ... pulled out my notes from 2004: I had scoped the lines from the 6520 to the > '145 1-of-10 decoder, the observed 4-bit scan sequence driving the 145 is > 09ABCDEF0 rather than 0->9, so only 2 lines instead of 10 on one side of the Hat it been 89ABCDEF8989ABCDEF... I would have guessed that the D input was stuck highm possibly due to a defect in the PIA or a bad connection (the PIA is socketed IIRC). Are you sure it's not this sequence? > keyboard matrix are being scanned. > -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 14:59:27 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:59:27 -0400 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an image of In-Reply-To: References: <4BBA7239.82ABE154@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I seem to rememebr (and it's been years since I've been inside a PET) > that the scanning is doen by an output port on a PIA chip, decoded with a > TTL decoder. Yes. A 74LS145. >> Anyone have knowledge of a known failure mode of this sort with these machines? >> > > Many faults on PETs are caused by the very poor IC sockets used. > Replacing them all with turned pin ones will cure said faults, and even > if it doens't help now, (a) it will prevent such faults in th future and > (b) it will tell you that you have a real fault to find. Agreed. I have a 2001N/3032 board that mostly works, except for the IEEE port. It's not the drivers - I'm reasonably certain that it's a PIA or VIA socket. I have recently secured a stack of 40-pin sockets and replace them when I have the time. I've had this machine since it was new, so I'm not unhappy to have to do so. I've gotten a lot of milage out of it. -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 6 15:10:19 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 22:10:19 +0200 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBA9C44.2040805@jbrain.com> References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de>, <4BBA196C.251.1512A83@cclist.sydex.com> <4BBA9C44.2040805@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4BBB952B.3000909@hachti.de> >> While on one hand posting auctions here would most likely be frowned >> upon, I > Hmm, I did not know that. I must have broke the rules by posting the > PC-4 stuff on here a while back. Hm, I thought about anouncing stuff here as well. And I also know that people pointing at eBay auctions often explicitely mention that they are not the seller... So there must be a kind of unwritten rule. As I read here there's also a fraction that wouldn't mind to see such kind of announcements. So I will post a short note on the next auction I do. BTW the zero feedback guy who won the pack auction didn't do anything yet. Perhaps it is a scam. In that case I'll happily re-list the pack. - Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 6 15:24:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:24:54 -0700 Subject: IBM 51TD Floppy Drive pinout Message-ID: <4BBB3626.10521.114EE59@cclist.sydex.com> This would be IBM P/N 4240513; apparently a 36-pin header on the 8" floppy drive. Anyone know what the signal pinout is? Thanks, Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 6 15:30:26 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 22:30:26 +0200 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBB99E2.4030802@hachti.de> Hi, > Well, one problem for ne (had I been looking for an RK05 pack) is that I > have no idea what's inside that box, and nor apparently do you. Schroedinger's pack - Currently there is a pack in the box. And there is no pack in the box. And the pack that is there is currently good. And of course it's also in all bad states you can imagine. All now and at the same time. It decides its state and pure existence when you open the box :-) > I will > believe that you are honest, and that uou truely believe there is a brand > new and good 12 sector RK05 pack in there, but we don't _know_. Hey, if you find a new and sealed box of diskettes sitting in a shelf for a long time, do you question if there are diskettes in the box? New in the box is better than "untested sold as is". I could X-ray the box btw :-) > It's > possible it's been damaged at some time. Yes, I mentioned that. But very low probability. > it's possbie the plastic has > fallen apart, or whatever. I'd rather hand a good used pack that one that > I have no idea about. So you think it would be better if I sold the pack as tested? I currently have no pdp11 to test it. But if that's an issue, I can bring up a 11/34 or such alike to do the job... > Of course the second problem is that the first thing I would do on > receieving something like that is open the box and format the pack. So I > wouldn't want to pay a premium price for an new unopened one (since I'll > immediately lower the value). While the origianl box is nice to have, it > is one more thing to store and not something I would be especially > interested in. Ok, memorizing for next time: Sell the stuff tested, not as new in the box. I also have a few of those packs for sale. In used condition. Is there any interest in those if I offer them cleaned and tested? > > I haev found it's impossible to predict the prices that things will sell > for on E-bay. Fully agree. I've seen strangest things happen. Sometimes the same item gets very different prices with not much time between auchtions. There was a Onmibus backplane. I think it did not get bids at EUR 70. A few weeks later a similar backplane (but dirty dirty!) was sold in US for $350 as far as I remember. That's strange. I have some more items to let go - so I'll just play the game. And won't complain too much. The only point is that I have to advertise - it's bad to read that a bunch of probably interested people did not even find my stuff. And shipping from Europe for US buyers is less expensive than the other way. > My only thoguth is to set a reserve or a higher opening bid. I'll think about that. Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 6 15:39:01 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:39:01 -0700 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an imageof References: Message-ID: <4BBB9BE5.BC38D01F@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Speaking of early Commodore PETs, I have here a 4032 on which some of the keys > > do not work. Some time ago I took a brief look at it and, as I recall, > > concluded the problem was not the keyboard but rather something was messed up > > with the scanning, something like not all columns/rows being scanned. I think > > it was a 6821 or 6822 or some such doing the I/O, but the diagnosis was perhaps > > more suggestive of something like a PROM bit failure causing the firmware > > program to foreshorten the scan sequence. > > Possible, I suppose, but unlikely. The unlikely does occur on occasion. > My first test would be to bridge the > suspect row/column pin to all the column/row pins (one at a time) with a > bit of wire at the keyboard connector to ensure the problem is on the > logic board. > > I seem to rememebr (and it's been years since I've been inside a PET) > that the scanning is doen by an output port on a PIA chip, decoded with a > TTL decoder. And that the inmputs from the keybaord go to the other port > of that PIA/VIA. I would then check that all the outputs of the decoder > are active As I implied, I already checked all this. As stated in my 1st message and in more depth in my 2nd message the diagnosis shows a problem with the scan sequence, not the keyboard. > > Anyone have knowledge of a known failure mode of this sort with these machines? > > > Many faults on PETs are caused by the very poor IC sockets used. > Replacing them all with turned pin ones will cure said faults, and even > if it doens't help now, (a) it will prevent such faults in th future and > (b) it will tell you that you have a real fault to find. Only a couple of chips are in sockets in this model/unit, not the problem. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Apr 6 15:55:17 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 21:55:17 +0100 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBB8D6B.9080102@hachti.de> Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Well, one thing that is interesting is that your auction never came >> up in any of my searches, even though at least three of my >> searches that run daily should have found it. > > That is interesting - bad. I assume that eBay doesn't show it > if you don't do a worldwide search. > Quite bad. I think that if I list on ebay.co.uk and don't ask (pay?) then it doesn't show up worldwide any more (at least not by default). I forget how they pitched this as a "good feature" :-) Antonio From vrs at msn.com Tue Apr 6 15:59:28 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:59:28 -0700 Subject: eBay disaster References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> <4BBB8D6B.9080102@hachti.de> Message-ID: From: "Philipp Hachtmann", Tuesday, April 06, 2010 12:37 PM >> Well, one thing that is interesting is that your auction never came up >> in any of my searches, even though at least three of my >> searches that run daily should have found it. > > That is interesting - bad. I assume that eBay doesn't show it if > you don't do a worldwide search. > Quite bad. That may well be why my searches didn't find your auction, but I am not sure. In the case of my other colleague, though, we never figured out why the searches didn't find the auctions. (In that case, he was only 40 miles away.) In general, I have no idea what can be done to find or resolve issues with eBay's search engine. Vince From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 6 16:00:36 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 17:00:36 -0400 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> (sfid-20091126_033228_931552_3C2E1654) References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> (sfid-20091126_033228_931552_3C2E1654) Message-ID: <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> Hi, Someone on linked in this morning asked if anyone had four (4) VAX 8250's. I tried to explain that they were hopelessly old and slow. And all the obvious simh/charon/etc... But he says he has an RFP which has no room for changes or negotiation. So I gots to thinking. What if someone really did want four 8250's? Could they even find them? And, if they did (which is the scary part), could they find a complete set of spares, including power supplies? (I don't know if the RFP includes spares, but I'd sure put a business card inside each machine with my number and "CALL ME FOR SPARES" :-) And, what about disks? Can you connect a SCSI disk to an 8250? I would think SCSI would be the only hope for a reliable production machine in 2010. Did all 8250's come with UNIBUS? If so, then a unibus scsi board would be the right option. Anyway, consider it a thought problem. Unless of course, you have 1-4 VAX 8250's you'd like to sell ASAP :-) I was just curious if it could even be done... -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting 781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 5 15:35:40 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 16:35:40 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Computer_pioneer_and_Gates_mentor_Ed_?= =?windows-1252?Q?Roberts_dies_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <4BBA499C.9020802@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/02/ed_roberts_dies/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 07:42:51 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: <8528F85C5E704F67B84FA2C5391AF208@udvikling> References: <74C5CFFFCFC5477780F174291211CBBE@dell8300> <8528F85C5E704F67B84FA2C5391AF208@udvikling> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Nico de Jong wrote: >>> >>> Browsing ebay I found 6 new QIC 1000 tapes for it starting at $1 with $5 >>> shipping "IMATION MAGNUS 46165 QIC 1000- 1.2 GB-B NEW" and put in a bid >>> thinking nobody uses this stuff anymore. With 30 minutes currently left it >>> has hit $117.50 and all the bids are users with 2000+ feedback. So are >>> these things that rare, or do people snag it up to keep the prices >>> expensive for corporate users who need tapes? I can't really see a company >>> needing new tapes (1.2GB) these days, drives maybe to restore files but >>> not new tapes. >> >> My goodness... I probably have 40-50 of these sitting in storage, although >> only a few are unused. Do folks really use QIC-1000 drives anymore? >> >> > Well, some people are buying 8" and 5.25" floppies, so why no QIC-1000 tapes? I should have said "..using them commercially". -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Apr 6 09:13:01 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 09:13:01 -0500 Subject: Reading ancient paper digital media (was Re: Hamurabi Focal source) In-Reply-To: <4BBA2012.22058.16B1FF6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BB9C590.30930.995BC@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100405131539.D18344@shell.lmi.net> <4BBA2012.22058.16B1FF6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BBB416D.40204@tx.rr.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Apr 2010 at 13:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> I never used an 084, either. Vacuum? photocell?? 2000 CPM??? WOW! >> Must have been 082s. Were there any earlier minimal models without >> counters? ISTR some elation over upgrade. > > I went to the bitsavers document on the 082, 083 and 084 sorters. > The counter was an option for all three--it could count total read as > well as the number in each pocket. There were some other fancy > options, including alpha sort and a 10-column brush with a mini > plugboard for the 082 and 083 to do all manner of fancy combination > sorts. I never saw any of the esoteric options. > > The 084 had a 3600-card feed hopper. That means that the beast would > empty it in less than 2 minutes! The operating notes state that you > didn't need to "joggle" the cards (another IBM term) on the 084 as it > was "self-joggling". > > Cheers, > Chuck > > According to the chart at http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/sorter.html the 082 ran at 650 CPM while it was the 083 that ran at 1000. I think I was confusing them and that by the early 60s it was more 083's that I saw. This old non-ECC wetware is tricky. ;-) Some customers were very slow to upgrade though, and I definitely remember some 082's and even 080's in that time frame complete with gears running in moly grease - what a mess to repair if you had to open that up. I don't believe I ever saw any of the fancy options either, certainly not the 10-column brush and plugboard option. I believe only a total items counter was all I ever saw as well, and I think most customers had that one counter. Later, Charlie C. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Apr 6 16:25:07 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:25:07 -0700 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re:Anyone have an image References: Message-ID: <4BBBA6B4.91C0072C@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > ... pulled out my notes from 2004: I had scoped the lines from the 6520 to the > > '145 1-of-10 decoder, the observed 4-bit scan sequence driving the 145 is > > 09ABCDEF0 rather than 0->9, so only 2 lines instead of 10 on one side of the > > keyboard matrix are being scanned. > > Hat it been 89ABCDEF8989ABCDEF... I would have guessed that the D input > was stuck highm possibly due to a defect in the PIA or a bad connection > (the PIA is socketed IIRC). Are you sure it's not this sequence? I had scoped all 4 lines and determined the count sequence from the time relationship of the pulses on those lines. While it is possible that on one of those 4 lines I was somehow blind to the distinction between a pulse and a constant high, it is highly unlikely. In this instance, the unlikely did not occur. I also scoped the 10 active-low outputs from the 145 with a pull-up resistor added because the outputs are OC and don't show their state well without. Only 2 go low (0 & 9). The 6520 PIA is soldered in. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Apr 6 16:45:34 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 22:45:34 +0100 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4ED42270F2034F9BB930773D345F8D73@ANTONIOPC> Brad Parker [brad at heeltoe.com] wrote: > So I gots to thinking. What if someone really did want four > 8250's? Could they even find them? And, if they did (which > is the scary part), could they find a complete set of spares, > including power supplies? I'd be surprised if they couldn't find them (I'm assuming they're willing to pay real money for them ... in the thousands). What might be tougher is finding licences for whatever they want ... I'm sure someone in HP could sell them the appropriate licences but I expect it would be a struggle finding that someone :-) > And, what about disks? Can you connect a SCSI disk to an > 8250? I would think SCSI would be the only hope for a > reliable production machine in 2010. Did all 8250's come > with UNIBUS? If so, then a unibus scsi board would be the right > option. I think UNIBUS was an option. You'd either hang your disks off a KDB50 or you'd fins whichever 3rd party SCSI card was available. The only reason I can possibly think of for needing a VAX 8250 is that the nuclear plant certification (or similar) requires it and will cost $MUCHO_WONGA to redo using more modern gear. In which case shoving in a 10K 73GB SCA-80 SCSI disk isn't going to fly either is it? Actually the other two reasons I can think of are "misread the requirements entirely" and "missed 1st April by a smidgen". Now, VAX 9000 would be somewhat harder. Antonio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 16:52:56 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 17:52:56 -0400 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > Hi, > > Someone on linked in this morning asked if anyone had four (4) VAX 8250's. Wow. That's specific and obscure. > I tried to explain that they were hopelessly old and slow. ?And all the obvious simh/charon/etc... > > But he says he has an RFP which has no room for changes or negotiation. Sounds like someone is up against the wall. > So I gots to thinking. ?What if someone really did want four 8250's? ?Could they even find them? > And, if they did (which is the scary part), could they find a complete set of spares, including > power supplies? Having an 8200 (or 8300, depending on the loadout) in the basement, I can say that the CPU enclosure is fundamentally a BA32 cabinet. I suspect one might be able to lay hands on just that or its PSU if one had a dead CPU cabinet. > And, what about disks? Can you connect a SCSI disk to an 8250? ?I would think SCSI would > be the only hope for a reliable production machine in 2010. ?Did all 8250's come with UNIBUS? > If so, then a unibus scsi board would be the right option. There was at least one BI SCSI card manufactured, but back in the day, it was $10K, so we never bought one. It was easier to get a KDB50 SDI interface since nearly every 8200/8300/8250/8350 was initially configured with one (including the used 8200 we bought c. 1989). Unibus was available (DWBUA) but less universal (I have one of those, but it has never worked since I moved the machine from its former home to mine - I presently have three dead UET cards so the DWBUA module doesn't pass self-test and isn't available when the machine boots). > Anyway, consider it a thought problem. ?Unless of course, you have 1-4 VAX 8250's you'd like to > sell ASAP :-) For the right price, I could part with my one 8200, but it would obviously need a KA825 rather than a KA820. -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Apr 6 17:37:02 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 23:37:02 +0100 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] wrote: > For the right price, I could part with my one 8200, but it > would obviously need a KA825 rather than a KA820. Well if the price is right, I'll go through my VAXBI boards. I've no idea whether they worked even when I got them :-) Antonio From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 6 18:47:12 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> (sfid-20091126_033228_931552_3C2E1654) <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: My guess is that you don't want to know where these might be headed. Seriously. And no, I don't know. If they have such a specific requirement as four 8250's it is a safe bet the requirements extend to the peripherals, and that the likely need something like RA80 or RA82 drives. SCSI disks are likely not an option. I've sold hardware in the past to a dealer filling such specific requirements. If you have the hardware, and it is obscure enough, it is a good day for you. I'm reminded of Compaq searching for VAX-7000 machines after 9/11. They contacted me, and I'm assuming other hobbyists. As for availablility, I'd say contact a few dealers that specialize in such things. I would imagine it wouldn't be that hard to turn up 4 systems. Though I shudder to think what it might cost. I can't believe what Alphastations are selling for now. :-( Zane On Tue, 6 Apr 2010, Brad Parker wrote: > Hi, > > Someone on linked in this morning asked if anyone had four (4) VAX 8250's. > > I tried to explain that they were hopelessly old and slow. And all the obvious simh/charon/etc... > > But he says he has an RFP which has no room for changes or negotiation. > > So I gots to thinking. What if someone really did want four 8250's? Could they even find them? > And, if they did (which is the scary part), could they find a complete set of spares, including > power supplies? > > (I don't know if the RFP includes spares, but I'd sure put a business card inside each machine > with my number and "CALL ME FOR SPARES" :-) > > And, what about disks? Can you connect a SCSI disk to an 8250? I would think SCSI would > be the only hope for a reliable production machine in 2010. Did all 8250's come with UNIBUS? > If so, then a unibus scsi board would be the right option. > > Anyway, consider it a thought problem. Unless of course, you have 1-4 VAX 8250's you'd like to > sell ASAP :-) > > I was just curious if it could even be done... > > -brad > > Brad Parker > Heeltoe Consulting > 781-483-3101 > http://www.heeltoe.com > > > > > From chd at chdickman.com Tue Apr 6 20:05:06 2010 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:05:06 -0400 Subject: IBM 51TD Floppy Drive pinout In-Reply-To: <4BBB3626.10521.114EE59@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BBB3626.10521.114EE59@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BBBDA42.5040109@chdickman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > This would be IBM P/N 4240513; apparently a 36-pin header on the 8" > floppy drive. > > Anyone know what the signal pinout is? > Could this be used on an S/34? If so, I probably have the documentation, but have to dig to get to it. I googled for IBM 51TD and got an S/38 connection. -chuck From ken at seefried.com Tue Apr 6 23:03:45 2010 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 04:03:45 +0000 Subject: eBay disaster Message-ID: Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > What did I do wrong? When offered in an open market with asymmetrical information and indeterminatedesire, if an item sells for more than certain people on this list think itshould, the people who spent more are idiots/clueless/scum/damaging the vintagemarket. When offered in an open market with asymmetrical information and indeterminatedesire, if an item sells for less than certain people on this list think itshould, the people who spent less are parasites/snipers/scum/damaging thevintage market. This is a once a month or more thread. Seriously, do we really need to rehash it? KJ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 7 00:06:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 22:06:50 -0700 Subject: IBM 51TD Floppy Drive pinout In-Reply-To: <4BBBDA42.5040109@chdickman.com> References: <4BBB3626.10521.114EE59@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BBBDA42.5040109@chdickman.com> Message-ID: <4BBBB07A.17681.2F2C725@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Apr 2010 at 21:05, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Could this be used on an S/34? If so, I probably have the > documentation, but have to dig to get to it. It could well be--it was used on a lot of different 70's era gear, including the 3274 and probably the S/36. I thought that those used Shugart 901s, but apparently not. I wonder if those were also used on the 5100. --Chuck From shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 00:27:30 2010 From: shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 22:27:30 -0700 Subject: Masscomp still available for rescue Message-ID: I finally put up pics: http://ecloud.org/pics/Masscomp/ and got around to powering it up to see what would happen. I saw an amber power light, a quick blink on the green "run" light, the fans work, and the hard disk spins up, but I didn't see any output on the serial port which I thought should've been the console. Supposed to be a 68k-based Unix box. Apparently these were known for graphics, but I don't see anything looking like video output (other than a coverplate with video signals labeled) so maybe that's missing from this one. Manuals, disks and a tape will be included. Anyway... if anyone wants it, it's free for pickup in Phoenix, AZ, and if not, it's going to get scrapped pretty soon. My wife's been nagging me to get it off the patio (clean, dry patio, out of the weather) for years, and now there is a good chance we might be moving. From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 6 17:48:48 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 15:48:48 -0700 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4BBBBA50.9000804@jwsss.com> CMD had a raid controller that hooked to the Vax 8xxx's that I saw, but I have no idea of part number, etc. I was a technical author on an article about it for CMD for a PR article in some DEC rags. I was picked because the word went out they needed a "Unix" expert to help with the article. This is from the hardware group there, plus their marketing. When I got there I was invited to log in, and found it quite puzzling that they had a VMS system for me... Anyway, they did take the interface that was connected via two coax cables (75 ohm as I recall) to a controller, and SCSI out the other side. And it was quite fast, and a lot less hardware than the DEC equivalent. Jim On 4/6/2010 2:52 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > I tried to explain that they were hopelessly old and slow. And all the obvious simh/charon/etc... >> > >> > But he says he has an RFP which has no room for changes or negotiation. >> From jws at jwsss.com Tue Apr 6 23:15:22 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 21:15:22 -0700 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBC06DA.8040302@jwsss.com> I do not have any problem with any discussion that Philipp wishes to bring up, given his efforts on the group. I do wish that these topics were brought up in advance, rather than as an after thought, but then someone else would complain. (not me). It did bring up several flaws in the exercise, which hopefully will help others with their sales. There seems to be more large collections being thinned than in the past, which concerns me. Usually a lot of material appears here due to an estate, but hopefully only the stress of the economy is forcing some of the sales, and not lessening of interest. I am not saying this at all in Phillipp's case though, just a general observation. Jim On 4/6/2010 9:03 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > > > This is a once a month or more thread. Seriously, do we really need to rehash it? > KJ > From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 01:02:18 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 16:02:18 +1000 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: References: <422936.91353.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BBA5B62.894C30A4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: I looked in charles j. sippl's computer dictionary and handbook, SAMS, May 1966 and there is no mention of "chip" but these explanations of "chad": chad - That piece of material removed in punching a hole in perforated tape. chadded - Pertaining to the punching of tape in which chad results. chadded tape - Perforated tape with the chad completely removed. chadless - A type of punching of paper tape in which each chad is left fastened by about a quarter of the circumference of the hole, at the leading edge. This mode of punching is useful where it is undesirable to destroy information written or printed on the punched tape, or it is undesirable to produce chads. Chadless-punched paper tape must be sensed by mechanical fingers, for the presence of chad in the tape would interfere with reliable electrical or photoelectric reading of the paper tape. chadless paper tape - A paper tape with the holes partially punched. It is commonly used in teletype operations. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 7 01:41:59 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 02:41:59 -0400 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBC06DA.8040302@jwsss.com> References: <4BBC06DA.8040302@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <0A3BD3E1-F679-4E3E-B9F2-F432E8A24B5F@neurotica.com> On Apr 7, 2010, at 12:15 AM, jim s wrote: > There seems to be more large collections being thinned than in the > past, which concerns me. Usually a lot of material appears here > due to an estate, but hopefully only the stress of the economy is > forcing some of the sales, and not lessening of interest. I am not > saying this at all in Phillipp's case though, just a general > observation. I can't speak for others, but my own small set of sales has been purely economically-motivated. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 01:49:32 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 16:49:32 +1000 Subject: seeking PDP-11/93 CABKIT for BA23, swap or sell MicroVAX BA23 parts, and SBOX CQD223A/TM Message-ID: More details and pictures here: www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/members/nw-retrocomputingtasmania-com/pdp-11-93 If anyone knows the part numbers for the KDJ11 CABKIT or front/rear plastic panels for the BA23 that would help me contact suppliers. My aim is to run RSTS/E v10 on this machine so I am open to suggestions for the simplest path to this goal. I have a SBOX CQD223A/TM SCSI card which I would be willing to swap or sell for the QBUS variant or some other manageable RSTS/E compatible storage device. cheers, nigel. www.retroComputingTasmania.com From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Apr 7 02:41:03 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:41:03 +0100 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: <01CAD53B.2AAF51C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/04/ibm-breaks-oss-patent-pr omise-targets-mainframe-emulator.ars It sounds like they're going after someone selling services (and running IBM software) rather than the emu itself at the moment. Antonio From julian at twinax.org Wed Apr 7 07:35:35 2010 From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:35:35 -0500 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: References: <01CAD53B.2AAF51C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <000101cad64e$db6912d0$923b3870$@org> Not surprising. It's another typical case of a company trying to profit from another's turning the other cheek in good faith toward the hobbyists. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 2:41 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/04/ibm-breaks-oss-patent-pr omise-targets-mainframe-emulator.ars It sounds like they're going after someone selling services (and running IBM software) rather than the emu itself at the moment. Antonio From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Apr 7 07:39:56 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 07:39:56 -0500 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Be careful when choosing sides on this one. I read that the guy running the services business tried to sue IBM first. IBM isn't firing the first shot here, and someone (or several someones) is not telling the whole story. I haven't looked into things too far yet. On Apr 7, 2010, at 2:41 AM, wrote: > http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/04/ibm-breaks-oss-patent-pr > omise-targets-mainframe-emulator.ars > > It sounds like they're going after someone selling services (and > running > IBM software) rather than the emu itself at the moment. > > Antonio > From hachti at hachti.de Wed Apr 7 07:53:12 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:53:12 +0200 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBC06DA.8040302@jwsss.com> References: <4BBC06DA.8040302@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4BBC8038.1050002@hachti.de> Hi, jim s wrote: > I do not have any problem with any discussion that Philipp wishes to > bring up, given his efforts on the group. Thank you :-) > I do wish that these topics > were brought up in advance, rather than as an after thought, but then > someone else would complain. (not me). I'll announce the next pieces early - living with possible complains. > It did bring up several flaws in the exercise, which hopefully will help > others with their sales. Yes, that was the idea. In the meantime I found out that eBay makes a difference on which website you post your auctions. They mention that checking some international options (I think I already did that!) will show your auction wherever you want. I won't trust that. So I will sell on eBay.com next time. People looking for pdp stuff from outside US do international searches far more regular I assume - as most of the stuff is offered in US. > There seems to be more large collections being thinned than in the past, > which concerns me. Me as well. One after another. Mentioned that in my reply to the April 1st message which currently is not too far from reality to be detected as such immediately.. > Usually a lot of material appears here due to an > estate, but hopefully only the stress of the economy is forcing some of > the sales, and not lessening of interest. I am not saying this at all > in Phillipp's case though, just a general observation. My collection is not thinned out. It's still growing, making me looking for space. I will probably sell some items at some point in time. But I usually prefer trading. I personally never had much money so I count myself to the class of collectors that swap, get for free and give away. The stuff I am selling off comes from someone else whom I help to sell some items he wants to get rid of. In turn, I'll get some other sfuff from him. There will be a TC11 controller up for auction - that's why I wrote about it. Must be a nice device and seems to be highly desired. I personally have two of those that won't be sold. >> This is a once a month or more thread. Seriously, do we really need to >> rehash it? Why not? I overlook so much traffic on this list without even complaining about things I'm not interested in. So why don't other people partially don't do so? Let's not start a big discussion about that. But wasting storage space or bandwidth should be no argument. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Apr 7 08:43:30 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:43:30 -0400 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? Message-ID: A more broad summary than the arstechnica one (which seems to harp on some points that I'm sure make sense to the arstechnica author but make no sense at all to me!) is in The Register: http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2010/03/26/ibm_turbohercules_response/print.html and on the patent issue: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/04/06/ibm_hercules_project_patents/ A factoid I ignored or never knew until now: the 1956 consent decree's applicability seems to have expired in 2001 for IBM mainframe stuff. Wow. This is, for me, like finding out that Captain Kirk was engaged in a battle of wits with Opie's little brother. (I'm not making it up, it's true! Look up the cast for The Corbomite Maneuver.) Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 7 11:25:50 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:25:50 -0700 Subject: IBM 51TD Floppy Drive pinout In-Reply-To: <4BBBDA42.5040109@chdickman.com> References: <4BBB3626.10521.114EE59@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BBBDA42.5040109@chdickman.com> Message-ID: <4BBC4F9E.27658.707BE@cclist.sydex.com> Chuck, Henk Stegeman kindly furnished me with some scans of the drive connectors, so we're all set. Thanks anyway, Chuck On 6 Apr 2010 at 21:05, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > This would be IBM P/N 4240513; apparently a 36-pin header on the 8" > > floppy drive. > > > > Anyone know what the signal pinout is? > > > Could this be used on an S/34? If so, I probably have the > documentation, but have to dig to get to it. > > I googled for IBM 51TD and got an S/38 connection. > > -chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 7 12:01:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 10:01:07 -0700 Subject: Terak Variable Density Message-ID: <4BBC57E3.5784.2754B9@cclist.sydex.com> I may be asked to handle some Terak 8500-series "variable density" floppies. The documentation isn't very specific about these and since I don't have them in hand, I'm guessing that they're really just FM+MFM and not actually zoned bit density floppies. Do I assume correctly? Thanks all, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 7 12:01:58 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:01:58 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBB7D11.4010608@garlic.com> References: , , <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk>, <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BBB7D11.4010608@garlic.com> Message-ID: Hi It seems to me that the little round pieces of paper from paper tape is chad. The rectangular pieces from punch cards are chips. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From bob at jfcl.com Wed Apr 7 12:13:19 2010 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:13:19 -0700 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <010801cad675$9f0e9090$dd2bb1b0$@com> >For the right price, I could part with my one 8200, but it would >obviously need a KA825 rather than a KA820. I have an 8350 in the garage, complete and working, and I guess I'd part with it too for enough money. I'd hate to see it go, though - it's a unique machine in several respects. First, AFAIK it's the smallest VAXBI "mainframe" and therefore the only BI bus machine that I'm ever likely to have as a pet. It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have. Gotta love that VAXBI mechanical design, too, what with no cables connected directly to the cards. It's a really easy machine to work on and swap parts in. You have to remove a ton of screws to get the cover off, though, and after all that it won't run with the cover removed anyway (the airflow sensors trip and shutdown the machine w/o a cover). Bob From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 7 13:35:51 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:35:51 -0500 Subject: Terak Variable Density In-Reply-To: <4BBC57E3.5784.2754B9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BBC57E3.5784.2754B9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201004071836.o37IZxAa064858@billY.EZWIND.NET> Yes, that's right. RX02. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 14:28:54 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:28:54 -0400 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: <010801cad675$9f0e9090$dd2bb1b0$@com> References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> <010801cad675$9f0e9090$dd2bb1b0$@com> Message-ID: On 4/7/10, Bob Armstrong wrote: >>For the right price, I could part with my one 8200, but it would >>obviously need a KA825 rather than a KA820. > > I have an 8350 in the garage, complete and working, and I guess I'd part > with it too for enough money. I'd hate to see it go, though - it's a unique > machine in several respects. First, AFAIK it's the smallest VAXBI > "mainframe" and therefore the only BI bus machine that I'm ever likely to > have as a pet. It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have. I'm right there with you. That's why I keep mine around (that and I have a VAXBI peripheral board I helped design and did the ROM code and device driver for, so I'd like to have a place to run it). > Gotta love that VAXBI mechanical design, too, what with no cables > connected directly to the cards. It's a really easy machine to work on and > swap parts in. I'm not so keen on that aspect of the design - we had numerous problems with our 8300 that were resolved by reseating the cards. I don't mind the cables on the back (though we did have a design-induced problem because the lead hardware engineer dismissed my feedback, assuring me that no customer would ever plug the cables in wrong - in fact we had *every single customer* do that since in the DEC world, no harm usually comes from inverted cables, so when something doesn't work, it's common to flip the cable and try again), but the ZIF backplane sockets were always a PITA to me. > You have to remove a ton of screws to get the cover off, > though, and after all that it won't run with the cover removed anyway (the > airflow sensors trip and shutdown the machine w/o a cover). All true! When we were debugging our product, we needed to hang an analyzer pod and an EPROM emulator pod on our board, and the cables were too thick for the original lid to close enough. We ended up making a 3/4ths "lid" out of cardboard and routing our cables out through a new hole. There was enough airflow to keep the PSU happy, and we were in a machine-room environment, so the ambient air was cold enough to keep the boards happy. My former employers paid $13K for that machine c. 1990, equipped with 1 CPU, 4MB of RAM (2x2MB, IIRC) and a KDB50. Later, we added another KA820 ($100? $150?) and matched the microcode revs and made an 8300 out of it for SMP driver testing. We never did get a serial card or ethernet for it, though I picked up a DEBNT for $50 or less in the early 1990s. There used to be a scrapper down the road from my house - besides things like MicroVAX Is, he occasionally got in VAXBI boards - as a result, I picked up a 4MB board or two for under $50. My configuration right now is one or two CPUs, variable amounts of memory between 4MB and, IIRC, 12MB (depending on how many slots I have available), usually a COMBOARD-BI (my product), a KDB50 (two slots), a DEBNT (not yet working - need to check if I have the right cab kit for the cables), and a DWBUA (not yet working - need to fix a UET module before the DWBUA self-test will complete). My box has the two BI cages; the DWBUA has external cables to a BA-11 in the next cabinet over (which holds a couple of SDI disks). For logins, I use the built-in four serial ports. I just went googling for DEBNI/DEBNA/DEBNT information. Found this helpful post... http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/1998/08/07/0000.html ... where Antonio Carlini mentions that the DEBNT might only be supported in the VAXstation 8000. It's been years since I tried to work on it - I don't recall where it shows up or fails to show up, but I _think_ it passes self-test (amber LED), I think its registers show up on the bus (there's an easy way to poke around on the console reading physical I/O registers), but I don't think I have an ESA0: or similar device at the VMS level. If I had to replace the DEBNT with a DEBNA or DEBNI, it wouldn't break my heart, but I do happen to have the DEBNT handy, so it'd be nice to see it work. In the meantime, I have a long serial cable running between the basement and my "office" room. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 7 14:10:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 20:10:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re:Anyone have an image In-Reply-To: <4BBBA6B4.91C0072C@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 6, 10 02:25:07 pm Message-ID: > I had scoped all 4 lines and determined the count sequence from the time > relationship of the pulses on those lines. While it is possible that on one of > those 4 lines I was somehow blind to the distinction between a pulse and a > constant high, it is highly unlikely. In this instance, the unlikely did not occur. A trick which I am sure you know, but it's worth mentioning in case others don't is to apply a 'weak' 2.5V source to the scope probe (say 100k to +5V, 100k to ground. Any logic driver will override that and pull high or low, but it will tell you the difference between high/low/floating. If you are working on old TTL that often only went up to 2.5V or so on the otuputs, then pick the resistors to get 1.5V or so on a floating signal instead. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 7 13:47:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:47:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 6, 10 08:42:51 am Message-ID: > >> My goodness... I probably have 40-50 of these sitting in storage, although > >> only a few are unused. Do folks really use QIC-1000 drives anymore? > >> > >> > > Well, some people are buying 8" and 5.25" floppies, so why no QIC-1000 tapes? > > I should have said "..using them commercially". I would also suspect that the number of 'classic computers' run by enthusiasts that use 8" (and even more so 5.25") flopplies vastly exceeds the number that use QIC1000 tapes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 7 13:59:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 19:59:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: <4BBB99E2.4030802@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Apr 6, 10 10:30:26 pm Message-ID: > > I will > > believe that you are honest, and that uou truely believe there is a brand > > new and good 12 sector RK05 pack in there, but we don't _know_. > Hey, if you find a new and sealed box of diskettes sitting in a shelf for a long time, do you > question if there are diskettes in the box? New in the box is better than "untested sold as is". > I could X-ray the box btw :-) If I foudn a box of old floppies, I would want to open them and at least look at the surfaces before deciding whether to buy them. How would you feel about a NIB QIC tape? WOuld you assume the belt was still good, and that it hadn't stuck to the tape and was going to pull the oxide off? Becuase I sure wouldn't. How would you feel about a NIB HP97 calculator. Would you assume the card reader roller needed replacing? > > > It's > > possible it's been damaged at some time. > Yes, I mentioned that. But very low probability. > > > it's possbie the plastic has > > fallen apart, or whatever. I'd rather hand a good used pack that one that > > I have no idea about. > So you think it would be better if I sold the pack as tested? As somebody who uses these old machines and peripherals, I would want a pack that I could use, not something to look nice on the shelf. So yes, I would prefer something that was tested to something that was NIB. Mind you, I have plenty of 12 sectore RK05 packs already... And a couple of alignment packs. > > I haev found it's impossible to predict the prices that things will sell > > for on E-bay. > Fully agree. I've seen strangest things happen. Sometimes the same item gets very different prices > with not much time between auchtions. There was a Onmibus backplane. I think it did not get bids at > EUR 70. A few weeks later a similar backplane (but dirty dirty!) was sold in US for $350 as far as I > remember. That's strange. I am still disapointed that I was outbid for an HP120 keyboard a couple of months back. OK, my bid was not that high, but I assumed that nobody else in England would want a Norwegian layout HP120 keyboard. I sysepct I have the only HP120 machine in England with Norwegian terminal ROMs. And I am pretty sure that this was the keybaord that came off my machine. Oh well, it doen't really matter, I made a keybaord for it long before this one was listed on E-bay [1], but it would have been nice to get the original. I still wonder what the buyer is going to use it for... [1] My diagrams for this are on the Australian museum site. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 7 14:05:54 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 20:05:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an In-Reply-To: <4BBB9BE5.BC38D01F@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 6, 10 01:39:01 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Speaking of early Commodore PETs, I have here a 4032 on which some of the keys > > > do not work. Some time ago I took a brief look at it and, as I recall, > > > concluded the problem was not the keyboard but rather something was messed up > > > with the scanning, something like not all columns/rows being scanned. I think > > > it was a 6821 or 6822 or some such doing the I/O, but the diagnosis was perhaps > > > more suggestive of something like a PROM bit failure causing the firmware > > > program to foreshorten the scan sequence. > > > > Possible, I suppose, but unlikely. > > The unlikely does occur on occasion. Of course... However, assuming the firmware does the obvious thing (load a register with 0, write it to the output port, increement it, go round again), I am wondering just what sort of firmware failure could cause this. If the counter was stored in RAM, it could be a RAM problem, I suppose. Do you have a logic analyser? If so, try triggering it on a write to the apporpriate PIA register, and look at machine cycles arround that. See if you can figure otu what hte frmware is really doing. > Only a couple of chips are in sockets in this model/unit, not the problem. Far too many times i've thoguht 'Oh, that's certainly not the problem' and then spent hours/days looking elsewhere only to find in the end that that it _was_ the problem :-) I can't rememebr who first said 'In any system that which is most obviosulty correct, beyond all need of checking, is the problem.' -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 7 14:56:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 12:56:49 -0700 Subject: Terak Variable Density In-Reply-To: <201004071836.o37IZxAa064858@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4BBC57E3.5784.2754B9@cclist.sydex.com>, <201004071836.o37IZxAa064858@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4BBC8111.10546.C83357@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2010 at 13:35, John Foust wrote: > Yes, that's right. RX02. Is the photo of the disk controller board on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni- stuttgart.de/pdf/terak/PCBs/8510_FLP_T.jpg of the variable-density or the single-density variety? I can't see how it could possibly be standard "funny MFM" RX02, however with the NEC 765 controller onboard. It would seem that a real RX02 format board would involve quite a bit more logic to get the DEC RX02 format right. Thanks, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 7 14:58:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:58:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100407125531.T12009@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Apr 2010, Ken Seefried wrote: > When offered in an open market with asymmetrical information and indeterminatedesire, if an item sells for more than certain people on this list think itshould, the people who spent more are idiots/clueless/scum/damaging the vintagemarket. > When offered in an open market with asymmetrical information and indeterminatedesire, if an item sells for less than certain people on this list think itshould, the people who spent less are parasites/snipers/scum/damaging thevintage market. Ahhh, a good reference to Gorge Carlin's classic, "Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?" From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 7 15:00:06 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 13:00:06 -0700 Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: References: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 6, 10 08:42:51 am, Message-ID: <4BBC81D6.10110.CB326E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2010 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > I would also suspect that the number of 'classic computers' run by > enthusiasts that use 8" (and even more so 5.25") flopplies vastly > exceeds the number that use QIC1000 tapes. Maybe, but perhaps not "vastly" at this late date and age. Many commercial customers probably maintain large libraries of tapes for magazine-feed tape drives. Show the average guy on the street a 5.25" drive and he's likely to think it's a new type of DVD unit. The number of classic computer enthusiasts is a very small portion of the overall computer-using community. --Chuck From trag at io.com Wed Apr 7 15:11:10 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:11:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:54:27 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > I haev found it's impossible to predict the prices that things will sell > for on E-bay. Several times I've seen things with an opening bid of > perhaps $5. I've thoguht that it was a rare an interesting item and put > in a bid of $100 for it (and ecpected it to go for a lot more), only to > find I end up winning it for the opening bid. Conversely there have been > times when I've thought 'nobody will want that' and put in a sensible (if > somewhat low) bid, only to find it sells for much more. Time also plays a part, as in, who happens to be looking for that type of item and how many. What sells for very little one month may go for hundreds a month later. I designed and ran off some circuit boards for 16 MB Macintosh IIfx SIMMs and offered sets of four (64 MB RAM total) on Ebay. The first set sold for over $270. As one would expect, the price declined from there until it went under $50 which was about what I felt was my minimum considering the effort to assemble them. The second to last set sold for about $50 and the set that made me quit went for about $25. Then I waited a month or two, offered them again with exactly the same auction listing and the price was back up over $120. It's like there's a customer-base refresh function at work or at least a time variant demand function. Jeff Walther From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 7 15:37:31 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 13:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 7, 10 07:47:59 pm" Message-ID: <201004072037.o37KbVXO017652@floodgap.com> > I would also suspect that the number of 'classic computers' run by > enthusiasts that use 8" (and even more so 5.25") flopplies vastly exceeds > the number that use QIC1000 tapes. I would also suspect that. In fact, the only systems I actively use QIC tapes of any capacity with are my two Alpha Micro Eagle systems. The AM-1000s and -1200s use the famously wonky VHS tape system. Everything else that's tape is DAT of some form. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "have do you a weak flatulence?" -- Babelfish Dutch translation ------------ From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Apr 7 15:41:41 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 13:41:41 -0700 Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: <4BBC81D6.10110.CB326E@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 6, 10 08:42:51 am, <4BBC81D6.10110.CB326E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 1:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? > > On 7 Apr 2010 at 19:47, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I would also suspect that the number of 'classic computers' run by > > enthusiasts that use 8" (and even more so 5.25") flopplies vastly > > exceeds the number that use QIC1000 tapes. > > Maybe, but perhaps not "vastly" at this late date and age. Many > commercial customers probably maintain large libraries of tapes for > magazine-feed tape drives. Show the average guy on the street a > 5.25" drive and he's likely to think it's a new type of DVD unit. > True story: A number of years ago I worked for a telephone company. I was standing near a table of 'open' PCs - units for casual use - when someone walked up to one and slid a CD into the 5-1/4" floppy slot. (The machines had no CDROM drives.) I managed to stop him before he tried to turn the locking lever - and likely destroy the CD. HelpDesk had to open up the machine to remove the disk.... -- Ian From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 7 14:43:32 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 20:43:32 +0100 Subject: eBay disaster References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de> <4BBB8D6B.9080102@hachti.de> Message-ID: <00b201cad69a$02ff8bd0$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Hachtmann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 8:37 PM Subject: Re: eBay disaster > > > Well, one thing that is interesting is that your auction never came up > > in any of my searches, even though at least three of my > > searches that run daily should have found it. > > That is interesting - bad. I assume that eBay doesn't show it if you don't do a worldwide search. > Quite bad. > Yes, eBay can be useless like that. I am a fan of someone on YouTube and she was selling an "I-Power" [1] t-shirt to raise funds for charity last year. However, because she lives in Belgium and didn't tick the "International box", eBay wouldn't let me bid on it even when I was signed in :( I have bought international items from China, Australia and USA from eBay. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk [1] I-Power stands for Internet Power From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 7 15:21:22 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:21:22 +0100 Subject: eBay disaster References: <4BBA5C1E.7090001@hachti.de>, <4BBA196C.251.1512A83@cclist.sydex.com> <4BBA9C44.2040805@jbrain.com> <4BBB952B.3000909@hachti.de> Message-ID: <00b301cad69a$05010120$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Hachtmann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 9:10 PM Subject: Re: eBay disaster > > >> While on one hand posting auctions here would most likely be frowned > >> upon, I > > Hmm, I did not know that. I must have broke the rules by posting the > > PC-4 stuff on here a while back. > > Hm, I thought about anouncing stuff here as well. And I also know that people pointing at eBay > auctions often explicitely mention that they are not the seller... So there must be a kind of > unwritten rule. As I read here there's also a fraction that wouldn't mind to see such kind of > announcements. So I will post a short note on the next auction I do. > Whilst that is quite true, atleast half of those are normally in the wrong category, so most people would miss them in their searches. I personally don't mind people point at eBay auctions as long as they are kept to a minimum, after all we are here to talk about retro computers and not the mainstream auction site. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 7 15:31:37 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 21:31:37 +0100 Subject: eBay disaster References: <4BBB99E2.4030802@hachti.de> Message-ID: <00b401cad69a$071ae070$87fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Hachtmann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 9:30 PM Subject: Re: eBay disaster > Hi, > > > Well, one problem for ne (had I been looking for an RK05 pack) is that I > > have no idea what's inside that box, and nor apparently do you. > Schroedinger's pack - Currently there is a pack in the box. And there is no pack in the box. And the > pack that is there is currently good. And of course it's also in all bad states you can imagine. All > now and at the same time. It decides its state and pure existence when you open the box :-) I was gonna go with Schroedinger's cat, but that would have been OT compared with your version :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 17:17:45 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 17:17:45 -0500 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBD0489.30703@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Joachim Thiemann > wrote: > >> Can someone just >> confirm this in a cross-reference? Or a A1010 schematic? Or their own >> drive? >> > > It's the same mechanism in an amiga 1000 (iirc) if anyone has that instead. Sounds familiar for an A500, too - at least I recall two ICs and some pull-up resistors. I remember building interfaces like that so we could use junked PC floppy drives as external drives (the prices that Commodore wanted for 'official' external drives were insane) cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 7 17:25:07 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:25:07 -0700 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an References: Message-ID: <4BBD0644.3E884771@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > Speaking of early Commodore PETs, I have here a 4032 on which some of the keys > > > > do not work. Some time ago I took a brief look at it and, as I recall, > > > > concluded the problem was not the keyboard but rather something was messed up > > > > with the scanning, something like not all columns/rows being scanned. I think > > > > it was a 6821 or 6822 or some such doing the I/O, but the diagnosis was perhaps > > > > more suggestive of something like a PROM bit failure causing the firmware > > > > program to foreshorten the scan sequence. > > > > > > Possible, I suppose, but unlikely. > > > > The unlikely does occur on occasion. > > Of course... > > However, assuming the firmware does the obvious thing (load a register > with 0, write it to the output port, increement it, go round again), I am > wondering just what sort of firmware failure could cause this. If the > counter was stored in RAM, it could be a RAM problem, I suppose. It is poor policy to not give consideration to a potential source of a problem on the basis of an assumption. A more typical way of programming this would be to load a register with the loop count and decrement till zero or negative. 9 is the first value to be output both in that scenario (the '145 is a decade decoder) as well as the observed sequence, the observed sequence being one which increments. I don't have the 6502 instruction encoding at hand, but I'll hazard a guess there is only a 1-bit difference between a decrement instruction and an increment instruction, said instruction coming out of ROM. A sequence which was supposed to go from 9 down to 0 would hence go from 9 up to F and then 0, within 4 bits. Note also the intended sequence is a cycle-of-10, the observed sequence is a cycle-of-8, there are 2 values (0,9) in common to the sequences, and 10+8-2=16=2^4. > Do you have a logic analyser? If so, try triggering it on a write to the > apporpriate PIA register, and look at machine cycles arround that. See if > you can figure otu what hte frmware is really doing. If I had a logic analyser it would have been applied already. > > Only a couple of chips are in sockets in this model/unit, not the problem. > > Far too many times i've thoguht 'Oh, that's certainly not the problem' > and then spent hours/days looking elsewhere only to find in the end that > that it _was_ the problem :-) > > I can't rememebr who first said 'In any system that which is most > obviosulty correct, beyond all need of checking, is the problem.' That would seem to be in contradiction to your earlier suggestion of the unlikely not likely being the problem. The sockets are not a problem as they have been checked already. The power supply levels have also been checked. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 7 17:36:18 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 18:36:18 -0400 Subject: Are QIC 1000 tapes rare? In-Reply-To: <4BBC81D6.10110.CB326E@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 6, 10 08:42:51 am, <4BBC81D6.10110.CB326E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6D0A6573-DDDC-41C5-852E-F33FC2BD8FB7@neurotica.com> On Apr 7, 2010, at 4:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I would also suspect that the number of 'classic computers' run by >> enthusiasts that use 8" (and even more so 5.25") flopplies vastly >> exceeds the number that use QIC1000 tapes. > > Maybe, but perhaps not "vastly" at this late date and age. Many > commercial customers probably maintain large libraries of tapes for > magazine-feed tape drives. Show the average guy on the street a > 5.25" drive and he's likely to think it's a new type of DVD unit. > > The number of classic computer enthusiasts is a very small portion of > the overall computer-using community. And the number of small companies using very old (but not necessarily ancient by our standards) hardware like QIC-1000 tape drives is a very LARGE portion of the overall computer-using community. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 17:55:11 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 18:55:11 -0400 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: <4BBD0489.30703@gmail.com> References: <4BBD0489.30703@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 18:17, Jules Richardson wrote: > Sounds familiar for an A500, too - at least I recall two ICs and some > pull-up resistors. I remember building interfaces like that so we could use > junked PC floppy drives as external drives (the prices that Commodore wanted > for 'official' external drives were insane) Yes, and the 'trick' was actually well documented. I have in a copy of "The Amiga System Programmer's Manual" but I seem to recall it on Aminet as well. Basically, make sure the drives are set to DS0 (IIRC stock PC drives are set to DS2) and then latch the disk motor line with the drive select, so that 4 drives can sit on one cable. Anyways quick update: the drive now works, but only on my A1000, not the A500; same symptoms. I think the LS'38 on the A500 motherboard is blown, too, it seems to not pull the motor line low enough. Bummer. I'm not good at desoldering chips without potential damage to the board. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From hachti at hachti.de Wed Apr 7 18:26:48 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 01:26:48 +0200 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBD14B8.7070509@hachti.de> > If I foudn a box of old floppies, I would want to open them and at least > look at the surfaces before deciding whether to buy them. I wouldn't buy them :P > How would you feel about a NIB QIC tape? WOuld you assume the belt was > still good, and that it hadn't stuck to the tape and was going to pull > the oxide off? Becuase I sure wouldn't. How would you feel about a NIB > HP97 calculator. Would you assume the card reader roller needed replacing? Yes and yes and yes. But this is a disk pack! I've not yet heard of it getting flaky or gooey... > As somebody who uses these old machines and peripherals, I would want a > pack that I could use, not something to look nice on the shelf. So yes, I > would prefer something that was tested to something that was NIB. Ok, next time I offer a used - and tested - pack. > Mind you, I have plenty of 12 sectore RK05 packs already... And a couple > of alignment packs. A couple of alignment packs? I have none :-( And I'm just fighting against some rk05 drives. Have a F drive hooked up to a pdp8/e. That servo system adjustments and problems around that keep me unhappy... Anyone an idea about incomplete head retraction? If I won't find a solution, I'll post that separately. -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Wed Apr 7 18:31:18 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 01:31:18 +0200 Subject: eBay disaster In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBD15C6.9030903@hachti.de> > It's like there's a customer-base refresh function at work or at least a > time variant demand function. I strongly hope that this also applies to the field of Omnibus and Unibus and QBus stuff... BTW has anyone seen DEC 4K and 8K pdp8/e memories on eBay in the last months? What did they go for? Ph -- http://www.hachti.de From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 21:31:24 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:31:24 -0300 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? References: <4BBD0489.30703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <032501cad6c5$b09a3d00$0132a8c0@Alexandre> > Bummer. I'm not good at desoldering chips without potential damage to > the board. Why not cut the pins of the IC very near the ic body, and later heat the pins and pull it with a pair of tweezers? It **IS** easy! From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 22:41:55 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:41:55 -0400 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: <032501cad6c5$b09a3d00$0132a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4BBD0489.30703@gmail.com> <032501cad6c5$b09a3d00$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 22:31, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Bummer. ?I'm not good at desoldering chips without potential damage to >> the board. > > ? Why not cut the pins of the IC very near the ic body, and later heat the > pins and pull it with a pair of tweezers? It **IS** easy! That's what I ended up doing on the 1010 - but the chips were put in all the way so that the only exposed part of the legs were the 'fat' portion - there was very little room in between to get a pair of side cutters in there and I had to apply a lot of force. If I slip, that would be no good... nevertheless, that's probably what I'll end up doing (the cutting, not the slipping part!) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 8 00:17:39 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:17:39 +0200 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20100408051739.GA31034@Update.UU.SE> > But he says he has an RFP which has no room for changes or negotiation. A followup on this would be fun, but I guess it might all be secret. > So I gots to thinking. What if someone really did want four 8250's? Could they even find them? > And, if they did (which is the scary part), could they find a complete set of spares, including > power supplies? There seems to be a few systems arround given the other replies to this thread. I have two KA820-AA CPU boards and two memory boards (can't remember the size). What is the difference between tha KA820 and KA825, another reply indicated it was a matter of a firmware upgrade? I would love a box to put the cards in, but I will also sell/trade them if someone needs spares. /Pontus. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 00:45:01 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 01:45:01 -0400 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: <20100408051739.GA31034@Update.UU.SE> References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> <20100408051739.GA31034@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 4/8/10, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> But he says he has an RFP which has no room for changes or negotiation. Looks like VARX is advertising 8200s and 8250s for $5K in a number of configurations... http://www.varx.com/CAT/VAX_SYSTEM_BASE_PRICES.HTML ... but who knows if they really have them or if 5K is enough to make them look for one. > There seems to be a few systems around given the other replies to this > thread. I have two KA820-AA CPU boards and two memory boards (can't > remember the size). What is the difference between tha KA820 and KA825, > another reply indicated it was a matter of a firmware upgrade? If you meant my reply (I mentioned firmware), that was about matching the firmware in two KA820s so that they could be bound in an SMP configuration. If you mean someone else, then I don't know. I always thought there was a speed difference (5MHz vs 6.25MHz CPU clock?) between the KA820 and KA825, plus some firmware marker to ID the board as one or the other. > I would love a box to put the cards in, but I will also sell/trade them > if someone needs spares. I don't know that I need another KA820, but if you wouldn't mind looking at the memory boards and checking the board numbers or the sizes for me. I only have the one BA32, so I couldn't help you turn your boards into a system. 16-17 years ago when we were making BI COMBOARDs, it was cheaper to buy 2MB BI memory boards used than to buy new VAXBI "BIIC" chips (for the BI corner). I must have scrapped out at least half a dozen 2MB boards. I still have a couple of them in my machine, but I'd rather have fewer but larger boards. I'd have to either fire up the machine or crack the case to check what's in there now, but I think I have two 4MB boards and a random number of 2MB boards. Looks like the boards break out like this... MS820-AA / DEC T1008 VAX 8200 2MB MEMORY MODULE MS820-BA / DEC T1019-A VAX 8200/8300 4MB MEMORY MODULE MS820-CA / DEC T1040 VAX 8200/8300 16MB MEMORY MODULE The system limit is apparently 128MB, but I'd be happy just to have 16MB or more in fewer than 6 boards (now that I think about it, ISTR I have 12MB - 2 x 2MB + 2 x 4MB, but it could be 1 x 4MB and 4 x 2MB) - it's been a while since I reconfigured it. I've only seen a couple 8200-class machines in the wild, so I'm not surprised the memory wasn't easier to find in the larger sizes the last time I looked - larger machines didn't put memory on the BI bus, so I think there were more peripherals to be found than 8200 memory. -ethan From marvin at west.net Thu Apr 8 01:16:58 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:16:58 -0700 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, > confirm this chip equivalence? Message-ID: <4BBD74DA.8060402@west.net> From: Joachim Thiemann > Bummer. I'm not good at desoldering chips without potential damage > to the board. Joe. The easiest way to not damage the board is to cut the leads to the chip, and then use a solder sucker to remove the solder in the hole along with the remnants of the chip leads. Hopefully if one or more of the leads is soldered to the ground plane, those pads used thermal isolation to separate them from the ground plane. From bqt at softjar.se Wed Apr 7 12:38:22 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:38:22 +0200 Subject: seeking PDP-11/93 CABKIT for BA23 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBCC30E.30005@softjar.se> Nigel Williams wrote: > More details and pictures here: > > www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/members/nw-retrocomputingtasmania-com/pdp-11-93 > > If anyone knows the part numbers for the KDJ11 CABKIT or front/rear > plastic panels for the BA23 that would help me contact suppliers. You know, Google is really simple to use... A quick search on "pdp-11/93 cabkit" gave me CK-KDJ1E-KA. Found, for instance, on http://www.pacificgeek.com/productdetail.asp?ID=1932313. (in turn from http://www.pacificgeek.com/showallitems_bb_list.asp?Code=CK) You can probably find information on all other stuff you are looking for by using Google as well. However, finding the actual items might be another story. I wish you luck, though. > My aim is to run RSTS/E v10 on this machine so I am open to > suggestions for the simplest path to this goal. > > I have a SBOX CQD223A/TM SCSI card which I would be willing to swap or > sell for the QBUS variant or some other manageable RSTS/E compatible > storage device. That is a Qbus controller, I assume you know this? The Sbox is just a question of handles, which can be removed. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Wed Apr 7 12:43:56 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:43:56 +0200 Subject: seeking PDP-11/93 CABKIT for BA23 In-Reply-To: <4BBCC30E.30005@softjar.se> References: <4BBCC30E.30005@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4BBCC45C.3050305@softjar.se> A few more things... Johnny Billquist wrote: > Nigel Williams wrote: >> More details and pictures here: >> >> www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/members/nw-retrocomputingtasmania-com/pdp-11-93 >> >> >> If anyone knows the part numbers for the KDJ11 CABKIT or front/rear >> plastic panels for the BA23 that would help me contact suppliers. > > You know, Google is really simple to use... > > A quick search on "pdp-11/93 cabkit" gave me CK-KDJ1E-KA. > Found, for instance, on > http://www.pacificgeek.com/productdetail.asp?ID=1932313. > (in turn from http://www.pacificgeek.com/showallitems_bb_list.asp?Code=CK) > > You can probably find information on all other stuff you are looking for > by using Google as well. However, finding the actual items might be > another story. The plastic pieces for the BA23 you are looking for are purely cosmetical. It can say MicroVAX I just as well as PDP-11/93. It won't make a difference to the computer inside. And the larger covers are also more for cosmetic reason than anything else. Although it might always be nice to cover the hardisk so people don't go around and kick it. :-) And the cabkit for the 11/93 is *only* for the panel at the back. The panel at the front is generic, and the same for all computers in a BA23. And yes, the 11/93 boards can be upgraded to 4 Meg. You just need to find the chips, which might start to be a little tricky, but talk with used chip dealers. I've done this myself on several boards... Johnny From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Apr 8 01:22:51 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:22:51 +0200 Subject: desparately seeking four (4) x VAX 8250's (sort of, maybe) In-Reply-To: References: <4B0E3CA2.40105@jbrain.com> <3D94AACA-6305-4084-8C13-844BC095987F@heeltoe.com> <20100408051739.GA31034@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20100408062250.GA21101@Update.UU.SE> > If you meant my reply (I mentioned firmware), that was about matching > the firmware in two KA820s so that they could be bound in an SMP > configuration. If you mean someone else, then I don't know. I always > thought there was a speed difference (5MHz vs 6.25MHz CPU clock?) > between the KA820 and KA825, plus some firmware marker to ID the board > as one or the other. Yes, that was what I was refering to, and I missunderstood what you meant. > I don't know that I need another KA820, but if you wouldn't mind > looking at the memory boards and checking the board numbers or the > sizes for me. I only have the one BA32, so I couldn't help you turn > your boards into a system. I'll check when I come home. I seem to recall 4MB, but it might as well be 2MB. Of course the boards are untested. /P From marvin at west.net Thu Apr 8 01:23:01 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:23:01 -0700 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? Message-ID: <4BBD7645.8090305@west.net> Another thing that works (but you have to be careful) is to use an xacto knife to cut the leads using the uncut leads as a "stop". At the point most of the leads are cut, you can use a standard cutter to clip the last lead on each side. (Still trying to figure out how this is related to chip equivalence.) > If I slip, that would be no good... nevertheless, that's probably > what I'll end up doing (the cutting, not the slipping part!) > > Joe. From marvin at west.net Thu Apr 8 01:25:29 2010 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:25:29 -0700 Subject: Dayton Hamvention Message-ID: <4BBD76D9.90401@west.net> As it is getting close to the date for the Dayton Hamvention, is anyone on the list going to be at Dayton? My plan is to be there with two selling spots (one to park in) and see what kind of "stuff" I can get rid of. If we have a few people there, it might be fun to have a Saturday night dinner at one of the local restaurants. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 8 01:36:49 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:36:49 -0700 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, > confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: <4BBD74DA.8060402@west.net> References: <4BBD74DA.8060402@west.net> Message-ID: <4BBD1711.21001.31220F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Apr 2010 at 23:16, Marvin Johnston wrote: > From: Joachim Thiemann > > > Bummer. I'm not good at desoldering chips without potential damage > > to the board. Joe. > > The easiest way to not damage the board is to cut the leads to the > chip, and then use a solder sucker to remove the solder in the hole > along with the remnants of the chip leads. Hopefully if one or more of > the leads is soldered to the ground plane, those pads used thermal > isolation to separate them from the ground plane. Tools are important. A good temperature-controlled iron (I use my trusty Weller WTCPT with a 600 degree tip for through-hole stuff) and a BIG solder sucker (the Edsyn DS017 is appropriate). Add solder to the pin if it's a little thin on solder, use the solder pump to suck the solder out of the hole. You should be able to see light through the via; then wiggle the pin if necessary to free it from the sides of the via. Every once in awhile, I'll get a pin that doesn't free--I'll use a #70 wire drill in a Foredom handset to clear out the via. Use low speed and you'll usually end up with the via intact. FWIW, --Chuck From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 01:41:34 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:41:34 +1000 Subject: seeking PDP-11/93 CABKIT for BA23 In-Reply-To: <4BBCC30E.30005@softjar.se> References: <4BBCC30E.30005@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 3:38 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Nigel Williams wrote: >> I have a SBOX CQD223A/TM SCSI card which I would be willing to swap or > That is a Qbus controller, I assume you know this? yes, I intended to insert something like "traditional" or some other word to indicate the non-SBOX variant > The Sbox is just a question of handles, which can be removed. Does anyone know the correct term for the non-SBOX variant? was SBOX just for VAX? I've never seen a SBOX style cabinet and this controller was my first introduction. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 05:36:00 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:36:00 -0300 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? References: <4BBD0489.30703@gmail.com><032501cad6c5$b09a3d00$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <03ba01cad708$4cd6dba0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> That's what I ended up doing on the 1010 - but the chips were put in all the way so that the only exposed part of the legs were the 'fat' portion - there was very little room in between to get a pair of side cutters in there and I had to apply a lot of force. If I slip, that would be no good... nevertheless, that's probably what I'll end up doing (the cutting, not the slipping part!) ========== There is a kind of side cutters (a "slim" type) well suited to places like this, lemesee if I can find a photo on the net...here! http://www.scalemodelguide.com/media/images/2009/02/01/Xuron_side_cutters_1.jpg This is a very thin cutter, you can use to cut the legs very near the body of the ICs :) From onymouse at garlic.com Wed Apr 7 16:03:19 2010 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 14:03:19 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: References: , , <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk>, <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BBB7D11.4010608@garlic.com> Message-ID: <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com> On 04/07/2010 10:01 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > It seems to me that the little round pieces of paper from > paper tape is chad. The rectangular pieces from punch cards > are chips. > Dwight > Hi! Everyone around me at the time called it chaff. Even the native IBMers who used paper tape every single day. Those were the days when IBM employee payroll statements were still printed on punched cards. Even the hams called it that. At least those I knew. Maybe Chad objected. Maybe they were just funnin' me. Did IBM really patent all those little chips? I think I've got a few left over if they want them back. They should be useful as spares for some keypunch or other. == jd Lizzie Borden took an axe, And plunged it deep into the VAX; Don't you envy people who Do all the things YOU want to do? From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Apr 8 07:26:58 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 08:26:58 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Dead or Alive... In-Reply-To: <4BBCC30E.30005@softjar.se> References: <4BBCC30E.30005@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4BBDCB92.5070606@atarimuseum.com> Let me know if anyone has one of these or has seen one, I'm told these may have been done by Tandon as they bought Corvus around 1987-1988 or so. Thanks. Curt http://www.atarimuseum.com/corvus/corvus386.jpg From db at db.net Thu Apr 8 08:00:49 2010 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:00:49 -0400 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, > confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: <4BBD1711.21001.31220F6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BBD74DA.8060402@west.net> <4BBD1711.21001.31220F6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100408130049.GA74445@night.db.net> On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 11:36:49PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Apr 2010 at 23:16, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > From: Joachim Thiemann > > ... > > Every once in awhile, I'll get a pin that doesn't free--I'll use a > #70 wire drill in a Foredom handset to clear out the via. Use low That can cut your via. Safer to use a sewing machine needle or pin. Heat the solder until it is molten, clean with needle/pin as the solder tends not to stick to the steel. In a pinch, the end of a capacitor/resistor lead will do if you are careful. You can 'capture' the solder in the via on the lead and simply snip off that piece to get it back through the hole. The solder pump works well normally. RoHS solder is going to be harder, unless you have to stay RoHS, I suggest diluting it down with tin/lead solder will help make it easier to clean. YMWV > FWIW, > --Chuck - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 08:58:30 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 09:58:30 -0400 Subject: Dayton Hamvention In-Reply-To: <4BBD76D9.90401@west.net> References: <4BBD76D9.90401@west.net> Message-ID: On 4/8/10, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > As it is getting close to the date for the Dayton Hamvention, is anyone > on the list going to be at Dayton? My plan is to be there with two > selling spots (one to park in) and see what kind of "stuff" I can get > rid of. If we have a few people there, it might be fun to have a > Saturday night dinner at one of the local restaurants. I have hopes of attending (I'm on the right continent this year), but I'll have to see what work and other plans allow. It's all up in the air for me this far out, unfortunately. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 8 09:06:48 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:06:48 -0700 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, > confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: <4BBD74DA.8060402@west.net> References: <4BBD74DA.8060402@west.net> Message-ID: > From: marvin at west.net > > The easiest way to not damage the board is to cut the leads to the chip, > and then use a solder sucker to remove the solder in the hole along with > the remnants of the chip leads. Hopefully if one or more of the leads is > soldered to the ground plane, those pads used thermal isolation to > separate them from the ground plane. > > Hi In most cases, I find that heating from one side and sucking from the other works fine, even for ground planes. If I can get the solder to melt at all, it always clears this way. As another mentioned, if it only has a little solder in it, you need to add solder to fill the hole before sucking. Solder wick is almost impossible to use in such cases without damaging the board ( too many heat sinks ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 09:44:47 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:44:47 -0400 Subject: Any IBM Aptiva fans out there? Message-ID: Hi, All, I was cleaning out a pile of stuff left behind when one of my brothers moved to California and ran across what looks like an IBM Aptiva 2142 Media Console - a pop-top CD-ROM and floppy box with a 50-pin cable back to the main box... http://www.systemsalchemy.org/howto/aptiva/intro.html Formerly, there appears to have been a lot of Aptiva information at http://wymette.home.att.net/aptiva.htm but the site is gone (I think AT&T just stopped serving "home pages" recently) and archive.org isn't pulling up anything on that old site at the moment. Another referenced site was http://members.rogers.com/airchan/ (which is available at http://web.archive.org/web/20021213012640/http://members.rogers.com/airchan/) happens to have had a pointer to the original IBM hardware manual - http://web.archive.org/web/20021201092020/http://members.rogers.com/airchan/2140_42.pdf which at least mentions how to dismantle the Media Console. >From what I have been able to find, the CD-ROM drive in the media console is an IDE unit not SCSI, so I _think_ that while the connector may resemble a SCSI-1 cable (50-pin "Blue Ribbon" connector) it may not carry SCSI signals. There was at least one reference I found to a "host card" in the Aptiva that was not being described as a SCSI card, but I couldn't find anything that states it definitely is or is not SCSI. I don't happen to have an Aptiva, but if someone out there does, I'd rather it go to someone than get broken down for recycling at Free Geek Columbus (which is where it will end up if it's unloved). I would want 1.2X actual shipping cost from 43202 (box, packaging, incidentals, etc). I see a number of places selling them for about $30 plus S&H, but I doubt they are flying off the shelves at that price. Cheers, -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 8 09:17:02 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:17:02 -0400 Subject: Dayton Hamvention In-Reply-To: <4BBD76D9.90401@west.net> References: <4BBD76D9.90401@west.net> Message-ID: <201004081017.02843.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 08 April 2010, Marvin Johnston wrote: > As it is getting close to the date for the Dayton Hamvention, is > anyone on the list going to be at Dayton? My plan is to be there > with two selling spots (one to park in) and see what kind of "stuff" > I can get rid of. If we have a few people there, it might be fun to > have a Saturday night dinner at one of the local restaurants. It looks like I'll be there selling stuff out of the back of my truck again. I've got a bunch of stuff to get rid of, trying to empty out my warehouse... much will be posted here or eBay in the coming month. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 10:11:11 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:11:11 -0300 Subject: Dayton Hamvention References: <4BBD76D9.90401@west.net> <201004081017.02843.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <052a01cad72e$7b7f7ae0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> >> anyone on the list going to be at Dayton? My plan is to be there >> with two selling spots (one to park in) and see what kind of "stuff" > It looks like I'll be there selling stuff out of the back of my truck > again. I've got a bunch of stuff to get rid of, trying to empty out my > warehouse... much will be posted here or eBay in the coming month. If someone has a nice HF rig, I'm still after a cheap one :) Greetings from Brazil Alexandre, PU1BZZ :) From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 8 10:35:12 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 11:35:12 -0400 Subject: Dayton Hamvention In-Reply-To: <201004081017.02843.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4BBD76D9.90401@west.net> <201004081017.02843.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201004081135.12193.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 08 April 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 08 April 2010, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > As it is getting close to the date for the Dayton Hamvention, is > > anyone on the list going to be at Dayton? My plan is to be there > > with two selling spots (one to park in) and see what kind of > > "stuff" I can get rid of. If we have a few people there, it might > > be fun to have a Saturday night dinner at one of the local > > restaurants. > > It looks like I'll be there selling stuff out of the back of my truck > again. I've got a bunch of stuff to get rid of, trying to empty out > my warehouse... much will be posted here or eBay in the coming > month. I might as well mention that I'll probably have a fair amount of vintage (or at least older non-PC) computer hardware, and some random interesting electronics bits. Nothing specifically ham-radio related per se. I'll be found at space "FE3224", which is on the end of one of the rows on the east side, towards the middle. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 8 11:49:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 09:49:52 -0700 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, > confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: <20100408130049.GA74445@night.db.net> References: <4BBD74DA.8060402@west.net>, <4BBD1711.21001.31220F6@cclist.sydex.com>, <20100408130049.GA74445@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4BBDA6C0.20210.1D3952@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2010 at 9:00, Diane Bruce wrote: > That can cut your via. Safer to use a sewing machine needle or pin. > Heat the solder until it is molten, clean with needle/pin as the > solder tends not to stick to the steel. In a pinch, the end of a > capacitor/resistor lead will do if you are careful. If you can--often, the problematic pin is in a via between two large lands and it's simply not possible to apply sufficient heat without damaging things. I do have a sharpened stainless-steel pick that will sometimes work (solder won't stick to stainless), but sometimes you just have to drill. Using a needle or a component lead in this case merely conducts more heat away from the area. Another approach is to use Wood's metal (e.g. Chip-Quick) to lower the melting point of the solder. I use that on SMT boards quite a bit with excellent results, but it also works for through-hole boards. Yes, it contains heavy metals which can be toxic, but it's in metallic form (remember all of the shiny cad-plated hardware of a few decades ago?). --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Thu Apr 8 12:02:00 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 12:02:00 -0500 Subject: Dayton Hamvention In-Reply-To: References: <4BBD76D9.90401@west.net> Message-ID: <4BBE0C08.6070905@jbrain.com> On 4/8/2010 8:58 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/8/10, Marvin Johnston wrote: > >> As it is getting close to the date for the Dayton Hamvention, is anyone >> on the list going to be at Dayton? My plan is to be there with two >> selling spots (one to park in) and see what kind of "stuff" I can get >> rid of. If we have a few people there, it might be fun to have a >> Saturday night dinner at one of the local restaurants. >> > I have hopes of attending (I'm on the right continent this year), but > I'll have to see what work and other plans allow. It's all up in the > air for me this far out, unfortunately. > > -ethan > Would there be some non-intrusive way to denote who the members of the community are while at the show? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 8 13:43:51 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 12:43:51 -0600 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/04/ibm-breaks-oss-patent-pr > omise-targets-mainframe-emulator.ars > > It sounds like they're going after someone selling services (and running > IBM software) rather than the emu itself at the moment. > It is important to observe that there is a huge distinction between Hercules, an open-source project, and TurboHercules, a commercial entity selling a commercial, non-open-source software package derived from Hercules. They're not yet "going after" anyone; so far they're only defending their decision not to sell licenses to their proprietary operating systems for use on TurboHercules' commercial, non-open-source version of Hercules. The TurboHercules people wrote a snotty letter to IBM along the lines of "nyah, nyah, we can use your processor architecture because it isn't patented", and IBM pointed out that they do in fact have a bunch of patents on it, which TurboHercules *might* be infringing. IBM hasn't actually outright threatened or sued anyone yet, though the implication is that if TurboHercules really goes forward with suing IBM in the EU, then IBM may sue TurboHercules for patent infringement. IBM hasn't said anything about suing the Hercules developers. IBM in the past has offered some kind of covenant not to sue open source projects for use of a particular set of IBM patents, which may include some but not all of the patents they listed in their reply to TurboHercules. Anyhow, I'm not a lawyer, and this is just my take on it after looking into it relatively briefly. Eric From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 14:21:35 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 15:21:35 -0400 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> References: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BBE2CBF.3080706@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > It is important to observe that there is a huge distinction between > Hercules, an open-source project, and TurboHercules, a commercial entity > selling a commercial, non-open-source software package derived from > Hercules. Not only that, but Hercules (the open source) is specifically used with IBM operating systems for which licensing isn't commercial. (Read: older stuff) TurboHercules is trying to provide alternate means of running IBM's *current* software. One is attacking IBM's bottom line, and one isn't. TurboHercules is trying to take advantage of IBM's generosity in allowing the open source community use of its patents to attack IBM's business. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 8 14:38:40 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 12:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com> References: , , <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk>, <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BBB7D11.4010608@garlic.com> <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com> Message-ID: <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 7 Apr 2010, jd wrote: > Everyone around me at the time called it chaff. Even the native IBMers > who used paper tape every single day. Those were the days when IBM > employee payroll statements were still printed on punched cards. Even > the hams called it that. At least those I knew. > Maybe Chad objected. . . . so they hung him? > Maybe they were just funnin' me. > Did IBM really patent all those little chips? My father said that IBM had patented the shape of the chips. Remember round hole punched cards? > I think I've got a few left over if they want them back. They should be > useful as spares for some keypunch or other. There is an active thread on the list about how to desolder chips. How do you keep them from burning? Do keypunch machines start with lace cards and glue chips in? Wouldn't you have to refill the chip box pretty often? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Apr 8 14:41:28 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 14:41:28 -0500 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: <4BBE2CBF.3080706@gmail.com> References: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> <4BBE2CBF.3080706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <511288FB-1F0E-4247-BCF5-DF4BA5DD2CCD@lunar-tokyo.net> I figured something like that was going on. I smelled a rat when I saw it on slashdot. It didn't make any sense. Thanks for posting. On Apr 8, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: >> It is important to observe that there is a huge distinction between >> Hercules, an open-source project, and TurboHercules, a commercial >> entity >> selling a commercial, non-open-source software package derived from >> Hercules. > > Not only that, but Hercules (the open source) is specifically used > with IBM operating systems for which licensing isn't commercial. > (Read: older stuff) TurboHercules is trying to provide alternate > means of running IBM's *current* software. One is attacking IBM's > bottom line, and one isn't. TurboHercules is trying to take > advantage of IBM's generosity in allowing the open source community > use of its patents to attack IBM's business. > > Peace... Sridhar From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Apr 8 14:44:09 2010 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 15:44:09 -0400 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> References: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1270755850.26354.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 12:43 -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > The TurboHercules people wrote a snotty letter to IBM along > the lines of "nyah, nyah, we can use your processor architecture because > it isn't patented", and IBM pointed out that they do in fact have a > bunch of patents on it, which TurboHercules *might* be infringing. And I think this is the key here. As soon as IBM replied it got covered on a pile of open source websites as "IBM hates open source" which seemed a bit fishy considering how much money they make from it... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 13:29:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 19:29:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an In-Reply-To: <4BBD0644.3E884771@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 7, 10 03:25:07 pm Message-ID: > It is poor policy to not give consideration to a potential source of a > problem on the basis of an assumption. Of course. That is the quickest way not to find a problem :-) > > A more typical way of programming this would be to load a register with the > loop count and decrement till zero or negative. 9 is the first value to be > output both in that scenario (the '145 is a decade decoder) as well as the > observed sequence, the observed sequence being one which increments. Now that's an interesting suggestion, I'd not thought of that, and it makes a lot of sense. It would be interesting to look at the key scanning lines of a working PET (either at the input of the '145 or the outputs, suitable pulled up) to see which direction it counts in. > I don't have the 6502 instruction encoding at hand, but I'll hazard a guess > there is only a 1-bit difference between a decrement instruction and an There is in most cases (assuming thr Apple ][ referecne manual is correct), but it's not as obvious as you might think. It's not always the same bit that changes. DEC M (memory revference) are C6, D6, CE, DE depending on the addressing mode. THey become E6, F6, EE, FE respecively (so it's the 32's bit that changes) DEX is CA, INX is E8,. So here he 32s an d the 2s bits both change DEY is 88, INY is C8, so it's the 64s bit here. The difference between ADC and SBC (add and subtract) seems to be the 128s bit in all cases. Are the ROMs socketed? If so, it would be sensible to compare them with ROM dumps fro ma working machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 14:15:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 20:15:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: from "Joachim Thiemann" at Apr 7, 10 11:41:55 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 22:31, Alexandre Souza - Listas > wrote: > >> Bummer. =A0I'm not good at desoldering chips without potential damage to > >> the board. > > > > =A0 Why not cut the pins of the IC very near the ic body, and later heat = > the > > pins and pull it with a pair of tweezers? It **IS** easy! > > That's what I ended up doing on the 1010 - but the chips were put in > all the way so that the only exposed part of the legs were the 'fat' > portion - there was very little room in between to get a pair of side > cutters in there and I had to apply a lot of force. If I slip, that You can (or at least could) get cutters almost designed for this sort of job. Essentailly a flsh-cutting end cutter. Most of the manufacturers of precision pliers/cutters (LIndstrom, CK, etc) make them. If you go to a good tool shop, you can problably get a pair (but be waned they will not be cheap!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 14:18:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 20:18:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BBD74DA.8060402@west.net> from "Marvin Johnston" at Apr 7, 10 11:16:58 pm Message-ID: > > From: Joachim Thiemann > > > Bummer. I'm not good at desoldering chips without potential damage > > to the board. Joe. > > The easiest way to not damage the board is to cut the leads to the chip, > and then use a solder sucker to remove the solder in the hole along with > the remnants of the chip leads. Hopefully if one or more of the leads is > soldered to the ground plane, those pads used thermal isolation to > separate them from the ground plane. A well-known trick (but worth repeatign nonetheless) is that once you have removed the IC body, you clamp/hold the board vertically, apply the soldering iron on the non-compoennt side of the board and the solder sucker to the same hole on the compoennt side. Normally that will get the holes totally clear. I use that method to clean out holes if I want to add more components to a wave-soldred board (e.g. for doing a RAM upgrade). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 8 14:24:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 20:24:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BBD1711.21001.31220F6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 7, 10 11:36:49 pm Message-ID: > > The easiest way to not damage the board is to cut the leads to the > > chip, and then use a solder sucker to remove the solder in the hole > > along with the remnants of the chip leads. Hopefully if one or more of > > the leads is soldered to the ground plane, those pads used thermal > > isolation to separate them from the ground plane. > > Tools are important. A good temperature-controlled iron (I use my > trusty Weller WTCPT with a 600 degree tip for through-hole stuff) and That sounds a bit cool to me. I normally use a #8 tip (800 Fahrenheit) on my TCP for such work. > a BIG solder sucker (the Edsyn DS017 is appropriate). Add solder to > the pin if it's a little thin on solder, use the solder pump to suck Adding a bit of solder will genrally improve the heat conduction and make it a lot easier to get the solder in the hole molten. Also, if it deosn't cleaer the first time you use the sucker, it's notmally a wast of time to just try again. Resolder the joing with fresh solder and then suck it off. > the solder out of the hole. You should be able to see light through > the via; then wiggle the pin if necessary to free it from the sides > of the via. My method for removing ICs inteact without damaing the PCB is to suck off the oslder (as above), then free the pins on the solder side. They will normally be against ones side of the hole, use pliers or a small screwdrive to foce them towards the centre of the hole. You need ot know how much force you can reasonably apply without wreckign the via, this, alas, comes with experiece. If the pin won;t move, reolder it, resuck, and try again. Then on the component side of the board, use a small screwdriver to fuch the IC pins inwards (towards the body of the IC). Place the scrrewever as close to the PCB as posible. When they've all 'moved' the IC will normlly just lift out with no damage to PCB or chip. > Every once in awhile, I'll get a pin that doesn't free--I'll use a > #70 wire drill in a Foredom handset to clear out the via. Use low > speed and you'll usually end up with the via intact. I've never had a hole/via that won't clear if heated wirh an adequate soldering iron from one side and sucked from the other. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 14:59:26 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0400 Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > You can (or at least could) get cutters almost designed for this sort of > job. Essentailly a flsh-cutting end cutter. Most of the manufacturers of > precision pliers/cutters (LIndstrom, CK, etc) make them. If you go to a > good tool shop, you can problably get a pair (but be waned they will not > be cheap!). Cheap tools are rarely good and vice versa. My fingers and eyes are too valuable for cheap tools. -ethan From doc at vaxen.net Thu Apr 8 15:20:29 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 15:20:29 -0500 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: <1270755850.26354.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> <1270755850.26354.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4BBE3A8D.4030507@vaxen.net> On 4/8/10 2:44 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 12:43 -0600, Eric Smith wrote: >> The TurboHercules people wrote a snotty letter to IBM along >> the lines of "nyah, nyah, we can use your processor architecture because >> it isn't patented", and IBM pointed out that they do in fact have a >> bunch of patents on it, which TurboHercules *might* be infringing. > > And I think this is the key here. As soon as IBM replied it got covered > on a pile of open source websites as "IBM hates open source" which > seemed a bit fishy considering how much money they make from it... s/make from it/pour into it/ Let the flames begin.... ;) It's pretty interesting to look at IBM's participation in "the opensource community" in the late '90s and early 2K, and then contrast that with Sun's so-called Linux initiative from the same period. Anybody remember "lxrun"? Sun basically said "We support Linux! Look! You can run Linux binaries on Solaris! sometimes. under certain conditions" and waited for the OSS community to start spending money on Sun hardware & software and port their code to Solaris. OTOH, IBM spent huge money on Linux for many years before they saw a dime out of it. In the '90s, a lot of the developers at the Austin campus released a crapload of kernel code under their own names because IBM Legal was so leery of the GPL. A significant portion of the Linux kernel was written by IBM, sometimes officially and often not. Same for apache, as far as that goes. And then there's Hercules, and and and. IBM wanted, and wants, to sell some very high-end software for Linux platforms. They recognized the need for professional development to help make the platform robust enough to justify it, so they jumped in with both feet. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 8 15:30:08 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 13:30:08 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com>, <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BBDDA60.22628.E6E39A@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Apr 2010 at 12:38, Fred Cisin wrote: > There is an active thread on the list about how to desolder chips. How > do you keep them from burning? That doesn't bother me as 63/37 solder melts somewhat below the temperature at which paper catches fire. It's *tinning* the darned stuff that's the problem. Round-hole Univac 90-column cards. --Chuck From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Apr 8 15:59:38 2010 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:59:38 -0400 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: <4BBE3A8D.4030507@vaxen.net> References: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> <1270755850.26354.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <4BBE3A8D.4030507@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <1270760378.26354.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 15:20 -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > On 4/8/10 2:44 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 12:43 -0600, Eric Smith wrote: > >> The TurboHercules people wrote a snotty letter to IBM along > >> the lines of "nyah, nyah, we can use your processor architecture because > >> it isn't patented", and IBM pointed out that they do in fact have a > >> bunch of patents on it, which TurboHercules *might* be infringing. > > > > And I think this is the key here. As soon as IBM replied it got covered > > on a pile of open source websites as "IBM hates open source" which > > seemed a bit fishy considering how much money they make from it... > > s/make from it/pour into it/ > > Let the flames begin.... ;) > I think they do make make money from it. > OTOH, IBM spent huge money on Linux for many years before they saw a > dime out of it. In the '90s, a lot of the developers at the Austin > campus released a crapload of kernel code under their own names because > IBM Legal was so leery of the GPL. A significant portion of the Linux > kernel was written by IBM, sometimes officially and often not. Same for > apache, as far as that goes. And then there's Hercules, and and and. I don't know if I'd call it a significant portion, but there is a lot of IBM code in there. If it were significantly IBM I'm sure some waning unix company would have sued them by now :) From doc at vaxen.net Thu Apr 8 16:11:58 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 16:11:58 -0500 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: <1270760378.26354.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> <1270755850.26354.11.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <4BBE3A8D.4030507@vaxen.net> <1270760378.26354.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <4BBE469E.9010904@vaxen.net> On 4/8/10 3:59 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 15:20 -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: >> On 4/8/10 2:44 PM, Brian Wheeler wrote: >>> On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 12:43 -0600, Eric Smith wrote: >>>> The TurboHercules people wrote a snotty letter to IBM along >>>> the lines of "nyah, nyah, we can use your processor architecture because >>>> it isn't patented", and IBM pointed out that they do in fact have a >>>> bunch of patents on it, which TurboHercules *might* be infringing. >>> >>> And I think this is the key here. As soon as IBM replied it got covered >>> on a pile of open source websites as "IBM hates open source" which >>> seemed a bit fishy considering how much money they make from it... >> >> s/make from it/pour into it/ >> >> Let the flames begin.... ;) >> > > I think they do make make money from it. Oh, they do, no doubt. Whether total return has matched total investment yet, I don't know. Doc From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 8 18:05:11 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 00:05:11 +0100 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBE6127.4050809@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/04/2010 20:24, Tony Duell wrote: > On 08/04/2010 07:36, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Tools are important. A good temperature-controlled iron (I use my >> trusty Weller WTCPT with a 600 degree tip for through-hole stuff) and > > That sounds a bit cool to me. I normally use a #8 tip (800 Fahrenheit) on > my TCP for such work. 600F is about 315C -- just about OK for 60/40 but far too cool for lead-free. 800F is just over 425C and bit hot for lead-free; the usual recommended temperature for lead-free is 380C or a little over 700F. My Weller and Oryx kit is set for 350C for 60/40 and 380C for lead-free. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Apr 8 18:07:26 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 00:07:26 +0100 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBDDA60.22628.E6E39A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com>, <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net> <4BBDDA60.22628.E6E39A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BBE61AE.6080407@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/04/2010 21:30, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Apr 2010 at 12:38, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> There is an active thread on the list about how to desolder chips. How >> do you keep them from burning? > > That doesn't bother me as 63/37 solder melts somewhat below the > temperature at which paper catches fire. It's *tinning* the darned > stuff that's the problem. Easy -- coat them with aquadag and then copper-plate them before tinning. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 8 18:34:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 16:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBE61AE.6080407@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com>, <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net> <4BBDDA60.22628.E6E39A@cclist.sydex.com> <4BBE61AE.6080407@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20100408163239.V94775@shell.lmi.net> > >> There is an active thread on the list about how to desolder chips. How > >> do you keep them from burning? > > That doesn't bother me as 63/37 solder melts somewhat below the > > temperature at which paper catches fire. It's *tinning* the darned > > stuff that's the problem. On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Easy -- coat them with aquadag and then copper-plate them before tinning. . . . or fire up the punch, and make a batch of chips out of "tin foil" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 8 19:12:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 17:12:23 -0700 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BBE6127.4050809@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4BBE6127.4050809@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BBE0E77.3626.1B25D92@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2010 at 0:05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > 600F is about 315C -- just about OK for 60/40 but far too cool for > lead-free. 800F is just over 425C and bit hot for lead-free; the > usual recommended temperature for lead-free is 380C or a little over > 700F. My Weller and Oryx kit is set for 350C for 60/40 and 380C for > lead-free. I do keep an assortment of tips around; I think that the "one that comes in the box" is a PTA7, but for fine 63/37 SnPb solder, 700F is just too hot. I don't particularly care for RoHS solder; fortunately, the leaded stuff is easy enough to obtain in the US. It might not be the case in the EU. The last bit of plumbing I did (replacing a well pressure tank) was done with 50/50 solder and it's the solder that I use when working on brass musical instruments. It stays "plastic" longer than the eutectic variety (which has virtually no plastic phase) and can be tooled while still soft. The amount of lead-bearing surface exposed to the water supply or musician is very small if things have been done correctly. But since "plumber" comes from the Latin for lead, what does one call an RoHS pipefitter? Stanner? Indier? --Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 8 20:02:06 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 03:02:06 +0200 Subject: Linctape reading? Message-ID: <4BBE7C8E.6070504@hachti.de> Hi folks, it's probably a laughable idea but... Is it possible to read LINCtapes with a TU56 and a TD8E DECTape controller? I could imagine that it's possible due to the simple design of the TD8E controller - most work is done in software... I just stumbled across a few of those tapes with unknown content. I first thought that I got a DECTape which was wound to the wrong side. I just tried it out. The DECTape system seemed to recognize just something on the tape - as it "rewound" the tape just up to the "beginning". And then it was not able to read something, of course. Oh, it would be fine if LINCtape reading on TD8E was possible - and readily implemented... Best wishes, Philipp P.S.: I probably won't be able to give those tapes away without cleaning them... So offers to look at them for me are quite useless :-( If I do not find means to read the tapes, I'll degauss them. Or simply reformat them. Or both for a clean tape start. Most of it seems to be working data. And some obscure software I don't know (yet). -- http://www.hachti.de From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Apr 8 22:18:44 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 20:18:44 -0700 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, > confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/8/10 7:06 AM, "dwight elvey" wrote: > > Hi > > In most cases, I find that heating from one side and sucking > > from the other works fine, even for ground planes. > > If I can get the solder to melt at all, it always clears this > > way. > > As another mentioned, if it only has a little solder in > > it, you need to add solder to fill the hole before sucking. > > Solder wick is almost impossible to use in such cases > > without damaging the board ( too many heat sinks ). > > Dwight With all the component harvesting I've been doing lately, I have a hakko 808 sedoldering gun and a hot air rework station that I use to desolder chips and other components. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Apr 9 00:17:53 2010 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 06:17:53 +0100 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <20100408163239.V94775@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com>, <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net><4BBDDA60.22628.E6E39A@cclist.sydex.com><4BBE61AE.6080407@dunnington.plus.com> <20100408163239.V94775@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Re Desoldering ic's We used a special Weller tip. It consisted of metal block (about the same size and shape as an IC base with holes where the pins would be) attached to a Weller tip sleeve (ie the part that held the tip to the heating barrel) On the component side you had a spring loaded clip that exerted even pressure on the chip away from the board. Apply said tip to the copper side of the board and the chip came out complete. Then the solder sucker was used to clear out the holes. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 09 April 2010 00:35 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: chips vs chad > >> There is an active thread on the list about how to desolder chips. How > >> do you keep them from burning? > > That doesn't bother me as 63/37 solder melts somewhat below the > > temperature at which paper catches fire. It's *tinning* the darned > > stuff that's the problem. On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Easy -- coat them with aquadag and then copper-plate them before tinning. . . . or fire up the punch, and make a batch of chips out of "tin foil" From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 9 00:35:03 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 22:35:03 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: References: , <20100408163239.V94775@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4BBE5A17.11920.2D9C365@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2010 at 6:17, Rod Smallwood wrote: > We used a special Weller tip. It consisted of metal block (about the > same size and shape as an IC base with holes where the pins would be) > attached to a Weller tip sleeve (ie the part that held the tip to the > heating barrel) On the component side you had a spring loaded clip > that exerted even pressure on the chip away from the board. Apply said > tip to the copper side of the board and the chip came out complete. > Then the solder sucker was used to clear out the holes. I remember those--you could get them in various patterns, such as a round cup for TO-100 packages. (I may still have one somewhere for my Ungar iron). My recollection is that as manufacturers went to multi-layer PCBs and buried ground planes that the amount of heat required by the iron to perform the job got to be ridiculous. The only DIP version I've seen worked with 0.300" wide 14/16-pin packages. I've never seen one for a 40- or 64-pin DIP. --Chuck From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Apr 8 09:01:33 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 09:01:33 -0500 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBDE1BD.8080403@tx.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 5 Apr 2010 at 14:51, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> I wonder if "chad" had origins with teletypes and paper tape, an >>> industry (telephone) separate from the punched card / data processing >>> industry way back when, and in which different terminology developed. >> Dunno, but either was fun to hide in a friend's drawer or light >> fixture. Paper tape punches were far nastier than the ones from >> punched cards. > > Emptying a paper tape punch/teletype chad box into a cow-orkers briefcase > was common over here ;-). > > A non-funny 'joke' is to empty it into the heater inlet of a cow-orker's > car. It could cause a serious accident if said person turns on the blwer > fan when drivign and get s 'snowstorm' in the car. And if a piece of chad > ends up in his eye it could be very nasty. > >> Maybe we should call them punched card holes in the spirit of >> "doughnut holes"... (for the uninitiated, these are balls of fried >> dough, ostensibly cut from the centers of doughnut blanks). > > Surely both are anti-holes? > > -tony > And if an anti-hole ever collides with a hole then both are annihilated and a magnetic domain is emitted. ;-) Sorry, just couldn't resist... Charlie C. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 09:08:43 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 10:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Dead or Alive... In-Reply-To: <4BBDCB92.5070606@atarimuseum.com> References: <4BBCC30E.30005@softjar.se> <4BBDCB92.5070606@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Let me know if anyone has one of these or has seen one, I'm told these may > have been done by Tandon as they bought Corvus around 1987-1988 or so. Heh. You'll have to beat me to it... Seriously, though, are you sure this was ever actually manufactured? I have a bunch of glossy sales stuff from the early 90s that shows a number of Corvus items made of pure smoke and mirrors. Steve -- From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 13:12:18 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:12:18 -0500 Subject: PDP5 Emulator? Message-ID: Someone from the IGDA-Preservation group is in the process of transferring old DEC game code printouts in to text files, and was wondering if any one from the list knew if there was a PDP5 emulator (as a bunch of this is PDP5 in origin)? He may also require assistance in checking some of the assembly, as the printouts and copies are not always clear enough to read accurately. Any help would be appreciated, and I'll pass the info on. Thanks! Marty From jws at jwsss.com Thu Apr 8 16:05:45 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 14:05:45 -0700 Subject: Hercules (IBM emulator) under threat? In-Reply-To: <511288FB-1F0E-4247-BCF5-DF4BA5DD2CCD@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <4BBE23E7.50706@brouhaha.com> <4BBE2CBF.3080706@gmail.com> <511288FB-1F0E-4247-BCF5-DF4BA5DD2CCD@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4BBE4529.5080008@jwsss.com> On 4/8/2010 12:41 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > I figured something like that was going on. I smelled a rat when I saw > it on slashdot. It didn't make any sense. Thanks for posting. > > On Apr 8, 2010, at 2:21 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Eric Smith wrote: >>> It is important to observe that there is a huge distinction between >>> Hercules, an open-source project, and TurboHercules, a commercial >>> entity >>> selling a commercial, non-open-source software package derived from >>> Hercules. >> >> Not only that, but Hercules (the open source) is specifically used >> with IBM operating systems for which licensing isn't commercial. >> (Read: older stuff) TurboHercules is trying to provide alternate >> means of running IBM's *current* software. One is attacking IBM's >> bottom line, and one isn't. TurboHercules is trying to take >> advantage of IBM's generosity in allowing the open source community >> use of its patents to attack IBM's business. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > Turbohercules has as one its major participants Roger Bowler. TH is not asking to steal or take advantage of anything for free. All they are asking is that IBM grant a license (not free) to run on their implementation (non ibm Z series hardware, but quite possibly IBM hardware base) for a narrow business case. Others would have to proceed into other areas on their own dime at their own risk. So the latter sentence is a bit of a stretch to understand. The Hercules community is certainly not out to piss off IBM as you said in the first part of your statement, but it is not accurate to portray them as the other effort, PSI. Apologies to the group for this posting, but I had to reply to what sounds a bit distorted. Much better place for this comment would be over on the Hercules-advocacy group on yahoo, won't comment again on this here. I really like Hercules as it hits the center of what my main interest is in classic computing these days, emulations, and vintage software. I certainly hope this does not turn out to be a misstep that hits Hercules with a backlash from IBM. Jim From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 8 21:25:46 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 22:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: N* Lives! Message-ID: Thanks to Dave Dunfield's fine work, I have my Horizon system up and running! One thing still puzzles, me though: Is it possible to create and boot SD diskettes on a DD system? When I boot at DD and bring up NST, it cheerfully writes a SD diskette from an image. However, that image will not boot. Should this work? Next hurdle is getting the Morrow Disk Jockey 8" controller hooked in. Some of the diskettes I received with the unit (none of which boot) have Basic and ASM programs that look like they're intended as support for the DJ controller. Without documentation, this is going to take a bit of experimentation, I think. Steve -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Apr 8 23:06:18 2010 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2010 23:06:18 -0500 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: References: <422936.91353.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4BBA5B62.894C30A4@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4BBEA7BA.5050605@tx.rr.com> Nigel Williams wrote: > I looked in charles j. sippl's computer dictionary and handbook, SAMS, > May 1966 and there is no mention of "chip" but these explanations of > "chad": > > chad - That piece of material removed in punching a hole in perforated tape. > > chadded - Pertaining to the punching of tape in which chad results. > > chadded tape - Perforated tape with the chad completely removed. > > chadless - A type of punching of paper tape in which each chad is left > fastened by about a quarter of the circumference of the hole, at the > leading edge. This mode of punching is useful where it is undesirable > to destroy information written or printed on the punched tape, or it > is undesirable to produce chads. Chadless-punched paper tape must be > sensed by mechanical fingers, for the presence of chad in the tape > would interfere with reliable electrical or photoelectric reading of > the paper tape. > > chadless paper tape - A paper tape with the holes partially punched. > It is commonly used in teletype operations. > Interestingly enough I believe I've seen one optical reader for chadless paper tape. This thing routed the tape across the read head at such an extreme angle that the attached chads would all pop up out of the way during the time the corresponding holes were over the optical sensor. I remember being pretty amazed at the time. BTW this paper tape was probably two or three inches wide - not exactly a common configuration IMHO. Later, Charlie C. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Apr 9 06:40:36 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 07:40:36 -0400 Subject: N* Lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBF1234.3000404@verizon.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Thanks to Dave Dunfield's fine work, I have my Horizon system up and > running! > > One thing still puzzles, me though: Is it possible to create and boot > SD diskettes on a DD system? When I boot at DD and bring up NST, it > cheerfully writes a SD diskette from an image. However, that image > will not boot. Should this work? > Yes, however you must forst format the disk as DD and when you do the copy you must also specify DD for the destination. Its in the horizon DD manuals. > Next hurdle is getting the Morrow Disk Jockey 8" controller hooked in. > Some of the diskettes I received with the unit (none of which boot) > have Basic and ASM programs that look like they're intended as support > for the DJ controller. Without documentation, this is going to take a > bit of experimentation, I think. > Get docs as that will save a huge amount of time. They are likely on Bitsavers or other archives. Allison > Steve > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 9 10:02:53 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:02:53 -0400 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay Message-ID: <6F1EB2BB-A5D4-4647-A93E-5DEDC4DE4C8E@neurotica.com> DEC RPR02 drive on eBay...This one really IS "RARE L@@K" etc. Two days left as of the time of this writing, no bids, $100 opening bid, in New Hampshire. Item #200457840777. Beautiful device...wish I had a way to grab it. I hope someone here gives it a good home. (no association with seller, etc) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 9 10:58:05 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:58:05 +0200 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay In-Reply-To: <6F1EB2BB-A5D4-4647-A93E-5DEDC4DE4C8E@neurotica.com> References: <6F1EB2BB-A5D4-4647-A93E-5DEDC4DE4C8E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <851db53738efa21df9115f94d56b2c38.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Indeed it is rare. A bit of TLC and it would definitely be a nice piece for any collection. Ed > > DEC RPR02 drive on eBay...This one really IS "RARE L@@K" etc. Two > days left as of the time of this writing, no bids, $100 opening bid, > in New Hampshire. Item #200457840777. > > Beautiful device...wish I had a way to grab it. I hope someone > here gives it a good home. > > (no association with seller, etc) > > -Dave > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 11:14:17 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:14:17 -0400 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay In-Reply-To: <851db53738efa21df9115f94d56b2c38.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <6F1EB2BB-A5D4-4647-A93E-5DEDC4DE4C8E@neurotica.com> <851db53738efa21df9115f94d56b2c38.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > Indeed it is rare. A bit of TLC and it would definitely be a nice > piece for any collection. Interesting the tag says it was part of Sylvania's data center. Anyway, I am not too far away, so I put in a bid. So there. -- Will From alhartman at yahoo.com Fri Apr 9 11:54:00 2010 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 09:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted: Dead or Alive... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <849575.42637.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I can say that Corvus PCs did indeed exist. I used one, and sold lots of them while working for Lawrence S. Epstein Associates in the 1980's. There were other things Corvus that never got produced, this wasn't one of them. Al On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > > > Let me know if anyone has one of these or has seen one, I'm told these may > > have been done by Tandon as they bought Corvus around 1987-1988 or so. > > Heh. You'll have to beat me to it... > > Seriously, though, are you sure this was ever actually manufactured? I > have a bunch of glossy sales stuff from the early 90s that shows a number > of Corvus items made of pure smoke and mirrors. > > Steve From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Apr 9 12:44:17 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 10:44:17 -0700 Subject: HSJ50 w/ CI interface on eBay? Message-ID: <4BBF6771.5010005@crash.com> Noticed eBay auction /#/380220354709 - some collection of HSJ50 bits and what look suspiciously like some CI ports. Does an HSJ even have the capability to support CI? I never really dealt with HSCs back in the day, or the intelligent storage controllers from the BA35x era. Anyway if it does support a CI interface, I thought it might be a cheaper way for somebody with a larger VAX to get closer-to-modern storage and much lower electric bills than using SDI or HSC options. Doesn't do me much good for my 11/730, so go for it. No connection to the seller, and no comment regarding the asking price... Share and enjoy! --Steve. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 9 12:53:12 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:53:12 -0400 Subject: HSJ50 w/ CI interface on eBay? In-Reply-To: <4BBF6771.5010005@crash.com> References: <4BBF6771.5010005@crash.com> Message-ID: <7A326C50-DD84-4944-A486-3F70EE8EB184@neurotica.com> On Apr 9, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > Noticed eBay auction /#/380220354709 - some collection of HSJ50 > bits and what look suspiciously like some CI ports. Does an HSJ > even have the capability to support CI? Umm...All HSJs are CI-interfaced devices. HSZ is SCSI, HSD is DSSI, HSG is FibreChannel, all SCSI to the drives. > I never really dealt with HSCs back in the day, or the intelligent > storage controllers from the BA35x era. > Anyway if it does support a CI interface, I thought it might be a > cheaper way for somebody with a larger VAX to get closer-to-modern > storage and much lower electric bills than using SDI or HSC > options. Doesn't do me much good for my 11/730, so go for it. Yes, they're really nice controllers. I have a pair of them on my VAX 7000. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ray at arachelian.com Fri Apr 9 13:00:52 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:00:52 -0400 Subject: Canon PJ 1080A printer manual Message-ID: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com> Anyone have a manual for these beasties? I'm looking for the print codes for it. I've found some demo programs and a few of the print codes on the web, but nothing complete. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 9 13:04:21 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:04:21 -0700 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an References: Message-ID: <4BBF6C25.1014C073@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > It is poor policy to not give consideration to a potential source of a > > problem on the basis of an assumption. > > Of course. That is the quickest way not to find a problem :-) > > > > > A more typical way of programming this would be to load a register with the > > loop count and decrement till zero or negative. 9 is the first value to be > > output both in that scenario (the '145 is a decade decoder) as well as the > > observed sequence, the observed sequence being one which increments. > > Now that's an interesting suggestion, I'd not thought of that, and it > makes a lot of sense. > > It would be interesting to look at the key scanning lines of a working PET > (either at the input of the '145 or the outputs, suitable pulled up) to > see which direction it counts in. > > > I don't have the 6502 instruction encoding at hand, but I'll hazard a guess > > there is only a 1-bit difference between a decrement instruction and an > > There is in most cases (assuming thr Apple ][ referecne manual is > correct), but it's not as obvious as you might think. It's not always the > same bit that changes. That a different bit changes for the different forms of inc/dec instructions is irrelevent to the conjecture. The primary candidates see only a 1-bit change. The conjecture doesn't strictly hinge on the 1-bit aspect, regardless, just makes it more likely. > DEC M (memory revference) are C6, D6, CE, DE depending on the addressing > mode. THey become E6, F6, EE, FE respecively (so it's the 32's bit that > changes) > > DEX is CA, INX is E8,. So here he 32s an d the 2s bits both change > > DEY is 88, INY is C8, so it's the 64s bit here. > > The difference between ADC and SBC (add and subtract) seems to be the > 128s bit in all cases. > > Are the ROMs socketed? IIRC, only one of several is. > If so, it would be sensible to compare them with > ROM dumps fro ma working machine. Glad you see it my way. Someday I might get back to working on it. Getting ROM dumps from a working machine shouldn't be difficult even for the soldered-in ROMs (a little PEEKing program or such), they may be out on the web already. Unfortunately, in the broken machine the socketed ROM - if it is something optional - is not likely to contain the pertinent code. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 9 13:17:02 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:17:02 -0400 Subject: Wanted: Dead or Alive... In-Reply-To: <849575.42637.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <849575.42637.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BBF6F1E.60809@atarimuseum.com> Corvus got into the clone PC business with Onyx-IMI (IMI of course has already been making their drives) and later they bought OEMTEK so on these systems, there was nothing too far of a stretch that they weren't released. Also there was some pretty big fanfare when Corvus announced its 386 based servers as they were one of the first companies to use the new Intel chip at the time. So I will continue to dig and pursue my efforts to find more out. In the meantime work has started on this: http://www.corvusmuseum.com and I should start having a good bulk of the materials up around May 1st. If anyone has anything they'd like to contribute - photo's, manuals, equipment, software please email me and let me know, thanks. Curt Al Hartman wrote: > I can say that Corvus PCs did indeed exist. I used one, and sold lots of them while working for Lawrence S. Epstein Associates in the 1980's. > There were other things Corvus that never got produced, this wasn't one of them. > > Al > > > > On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >> >>> Let me know if anyone has one of these or has seen one, I'm told these may >>> have been done by Tandon as they bought Corvus around 1987-1988 or so. >>> >> Heh. You'll have to beat me to it... >> >> Seriously, though, are you sure this was ever actually manufactured? I >> have a bunch of glossy sales stuff from the early 90s that shows a number >> of Corvus items made of pure smoke and mirrors. >> >> Steve >> > > From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Apr 9 13:30:26 2010 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:30:26 -0700 Subject: HSJ50 w/ CI interface on eBay? In-Reply-To: <7A326C50-DD84-4944-A486-3F70EE8EB184@neurotica.com> References: <4BBF6771.5010005@crash.com>, <7A326C50-DD84-4944-A486-3F70EE8EB184@neurotica.com> Message-ID: That's what we use on our VAX-11/780-5.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:53 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HSJ50 w/ CI interface on eBay? On Apr 9, 2010, at 1:44 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > Noticed eBay auction /#/380220354709 - some collection of HSJ50 > bits and what look suspiciously like some CI ports. Does an HSJ > even have the capability to support CI? Umm...All HSJs are CI-interfaced devices. HSZ is SCSI, HSD is DSSI, HSG is FibreChannel, all SCSI to the drives. > I never really dealt with HSCs back in the day, or the intelligent > storage controllers from the BA35x era. > Anyway if it does support a CI interface, I thought it might be a > cheaper way for somebody with a larger VAX to get closer-to-modern > storage and much lower electric bills than using SDI or HSC > options. Doesn't do me much good for my 11/730, so go for it. Yes, they're really nice controllers. I have a pair of them on my VAX 7000. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 12:34:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 18:34:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBDE1BD.8080403@tx.rr.com> from "CSquared" at Apr 8, 10 09:01:33 am Message-ID: > And if an anti-hole ever collides with a hole then both are annihilated > and a magnetic domain is emitted. ;-) > Sorry, just couldn't resist... Perhaps we should rename 'chips' and 'chad' as electrons :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 12:38:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 18:38:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Can someone confirm this chip equivalence? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 8, 10 03:59:26 pm Message-ID: > Cheap tools are rarely good and vice versa. I can't disgree with that. > > My fingers and eyes are too valuable for cheap tools. In this case, I would be more worred that a cheap pair of cutters would exert so much force on the IC pin that it would damage the PCB. -tony (I am not rich enough to buy cheap tools :-)) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 13:11:52 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 19:11:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <20100408163239.V94775@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 8, 10 04:34:51 pm Message-ID: > > Easy -- coat them with aquadag and then copper-plate them before tinning. > > . . . or fire up the punch, and make a batch of chips out of "tin foil" Most 'tin' foil these days is aluminium. And due to the oxide coating it's a right pain to solder to. It is posible to solder to aluminium with normal solder and flux (I have done it) -- the trick is to put a drop of oil on the aluminium, then scrape the surface under the oil and quickly tin it with a hot iron and solder. Most of the time it will tin. Once it's tinend it's easy to solder a wire (or whatever) to the aluminium. But I wouldn't fancy trying to do that with 'tin foil' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 13:17:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 19:17:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BBE0E77.3626.1B25D92@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 8, 10 05:12:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Apr 2010 at 0:05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > 600F is about 315C -- just about OK for 60/40 but far too cool for > > lead-free. 800F is just over 425C and bit hot for lead-free; the Waht is the problem with getting lead-free solder too hot? And aonther thing that's boethering me. There are many different lead-free solders out there. How do I know which one I have to use to reowrk a modern PCB for which there is no service manual available? Does it even matter? > > usual recommended temperature for lead-free is 380C or a little over > > 700F. My Weller and Oryx kit is set for 350C for 60/40 and 380C for > > lead-free. > > I do keep an assortment of tips around; I think that the "one that > comes in the box" is a PTA7, but for fine 63/37 SnPb solder, 700F is Quite likely. I use a PTA8 most of the time, and I have no problems using it with fine 60/40 solder. > just too hot. I don't particularly care for RoHS solder; > fortunately, the leaded stuff is easy enough to obtain in the US. It > might not be the case in the EU. It's not hard to get in the UK, and AFAIK it's quite legal to use it for homebrew projects and reworking stuff that was built before this ridiculous directive. I don;'t care for the lead-free stuff either. > > The last bit of plumbing I did (replacing a well pressure tank) was > done with 50/50 solder and it's the solder that I use when working on > brass musical instruments. It stays "plastic" longer than the > eutectic variety (which has virtually no plastic phase) and can be > tooled while still soft. The amount of lead-bearing surface exposed > to the water supply or musician is very small if things have been > done correctly. Indeed... Over here it;s illkegal to use leaded solder on drinking water plumbing. For waht reason $deity only knows. The ammount of lead that would get into the wanter from the average soldered joint would be minimal. But then such regulations are rearely made by people who actually think what's going on. -tony From hachti at hachti.de Fri Apr 9 13:56:48 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:56:48 +0200 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay In-Reply-To: <851db53738efa21df9115f94d56b2c38.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <6F1EB2BB-A5D4-4647-A93E-5DEDC4DE4C8E@neurotica.com> <851db53738efa21df9115f94d56b2c38.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4BBF7870.30009@hachti.de> Hu! E. Groenenberg wrote: > Indeed it is rare. A bit of TLC and it would definitely be a nice > piece for any collection. Ed....! What is "TLC"? And what is the difference between RP02 and RPR02? They look quite similar - except the paint. And I got some RPR schematics from someone in the Netherlands last Sunday - thanks again :-) Would be cool if the schematics fit my RP02 and RP03 drives - at least a little bit. I'll keep the stuff anyway. Perhaps there is some interest to put that to Al? Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From mikelee at tdh.com Fri Apr 9 14:21:21 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:21:21 -0500 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! Message-ID: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> I rescued this thing from a computer store in the area a couple years ago, and I think it's time to pass it on. From what I was told and what I can tell, this is a CDC 9-track SCSI tape drive that was removed from it's original rack/chassis. At the time, this computer store used it to do some data recovery on some 1980 census tapes from Chicago, and they had rigged this to a more modern SCSI based PC to do so. So I don't know what condition it is currently in, and no idea if it works still, but it did before it was stashed away into storage from what I understand. If you want it, I can ship it at your expense or more than happy to pass it along any other means possible, it is located in the Chicagoland area. Temporarily posted pictures at: http://www.merry-xmas.net/9track/ Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 14:29:51 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 20:29:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an In-Reply-To: <4BBF6C25.1014C073@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Apr 9, 10 11:04:21 am Message-ID: > > There is in most cases (assuming thr Apple ][ referecne manual is > > correct), but it's not as obvious as you might think. It's not always the > > same bit that changes. > > That a different bit changes for the different forms of inc/dec instructions > is irrelevent to the conjecture. The primary candidates see only a 1-bit change. Of course. I just found it curious that the instructions didn't fit a common pattern. > The conjecture doesn't strictly hinge on the 1-bit aspect, regardless, just > makes it more likely. Sure. A single-bit failure is more likely than a 2-bit failure, etc. I wonder if one direction of failure is more likely than another (in the case of most EPROMs, as they contaiin FFs when erased, bit rot gerneally causes 0's to become 1's, for example) > > If so, it would be sensible to compare them with > > ROM dumps fro ma working machine. > > Glad you see it my way. > > Someday I might get back to working on it. Getting ROM dumps from a working > machine shouldn't be difficult even for the soldered-in ROMs (a little PEEKing > program or such), they may be out on the web already. Unfortunately, in the Sure. > broken machine the socketed ROM - if it is something optional - is not likely > to contain the pertinent code. Ithink we can disocunt the possibllity of a bad socket too ;-) It might be easiest to desolder the 6502 processor and find some way to drive the address connections on its PCB position and monitor the data lines. Compters with what I grew up calling 'user ports' are not common these days [1] althoguh it shouldn't be hard to make somthing (I hate to say this, but I would guess a microcontroller with a USB slave interface could do this very easily on a modern PC. [1] I personalluy like the HP98622 card in an HP9000/200 machine. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 9 14:40:12 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:40:12 -0700 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> References: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4BBF202C.22987.BCF48F@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2010 at 14:21, Michael Lee wrote: > I rescued this thing from a computer store in the area a couple years > ago, and I think it's time to pass it on. From what I was told and > what I can tell, this is a CDC 9-track SCSI tape drive that was > removed from it's original rack/chassis. At the time, this computer > store used it to do some data recovery on some 1980 census tapes from > Chicago, and they had rigged this to a more modern SCSI based PC to do > so. So I don't know what condition it is currently in, and no idea if > it works still, but it did before it was stashed away into storage > from what I understand. >From the photos, this may in fact be a rebadged Fujitsu drive. ISTR that CDC used them. Regardless, it's going to be heavy--bring friends. --Chuck From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Apr 9 14:39:21 2010 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:39:21 -0700 Subject: HSJ50 w/ CI interface on eBay? In-Reply-To: <7A326C50-DD84-4944-A486-3F70EE8EB184@neurotica.com> References: <4BBF6771.5010005@crash.com> <7A326C50-DD84-4944-A486-3F70EE8EB184@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BBF8269.4000009@crash.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Umm...All HSJs are CI-interfaced devices. HSZ is SCSI, HSD is DSSI, > HSG is FibreChannel, all SCSI to the drives. ... and a simple Google search probably would have shown that almost immediately. Well, I've never been one to avoid an opportunity to stick my foot in my mouth. ;^) Thanks for the quick summary. Now that you've reminded me, I actually have an HSD05 and HSD10 somewhere in storage. I'd picked them up a long time ago in case they turned out to be the best way to connect some SCSI drives to my VAX 3400 and 4000/500 when their RF-series drives stop spinning... /--/S. From starbase89 at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 14:44:43 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:44:43 -0400 Subject: on and off topic magazines and journals to be gotten rid of Message-ID: I am trying to get rid of around 300 old magazines and journals for someone I know. Included are about 200 "Proceedings of the IRE/IEEE" journals varying in age from 1949 to 1970, as well as bound full-year journals from 1953, 1955, 1961, 1962 & 1963. Additionally, there are about 70 "R.F. Design" Ranging from the late 1970s to the early 1990s, as well as 25 "Hewlett Packard Journal" from the early 1990s. Because the person who has them does not want to give them away, I am trying to get $0.50 per 25 journals. They are located in Wall Township, New Jersey, and are for pickup only. Thanks Joe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 14:50:04 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:50:04 -0400 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF6C25.1014C073@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 4/9/10, Tony Duell wrote: >> Someday I might get back to working on it. Getting ROM dumps from a >> working >> machine shouldn't be difficult even for the soldered-in ROMs (a little >> PEEKing >> program or such), they may be out on the web already. They are... http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/firmware/computers/pet/index.html > It might be easiest to desolder the 6502 processor and find some way to > drive the address connections on its PCB position and monitor the data > lines. An 80C52 or ATmega8515 (depending on what your preferred architecture is) has at least 24 I/O lines and can be easily interfaced to via serial port. A slightly more complex way of doing it might be to gang a pair of '595s together for a 16-bit SPI-interfaced port (3 wires for clock, data, and latch) to drive the address bus off the 6502 socket then generate _R/W, Phi2, etc, and read or write what's at that address from some 8-bit bidirectional port your tester happens to have (doing read-only tests could result in a simpler tester). I myself have been doing exactly these sorts of tests recently on a pile of 1977-1978-era Static PET boards with a Fluke 9010A and 6502 pod. I've even identified three bad 6540 ROM chips (out of 16 or so tested) and one bad 2316. The 2316 was 100% bad (all reads were zero), but the 6540s were about 1% bad - I was surprised at that. Of course with a tester that's as sophisticated as a Fluke 9010A, you could probably write a Fluke program to set up the PIA to scan the keyboard matrix and test that aspect of the circuit independently of any ROM tests. If you don't already have a Fluke + 6502 pod lying around and don't have enough 6502 machines to repair to justify the investment, it shouldn't be too hard to make a microcontroller-based 6502 memory map tester, even from something like an Arduino (for those that don't want to roll their own stuff 100% from scratch). -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Apr 9 14:50:13 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: ACM insurance Message-ID: I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience buying health insurance through the ACM. My career has taken some very interesting twists and turns and it looks like I'll be running a consulting firm for a while. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 14:53:33 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:53:33 -0400 Subject: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: References: <4BBE0E77.3626.1B25D92@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 14:17, Tony Duell wrote: > Indeed... Over here it;s illkegal to use leaded solder on drinking water > plumbing. For waht reason $deity only knows. The ammount of lead that > would get into the wanter from the average soldered joint would be > minimal. But then such regulations are rearely made by people who > actually think what's going on. Aaaaand just to play devil's advocate: The regulations are then discussed by people that don't actually know what's going on either (BTW no, I don't know either!) - What is the safe level of lead in drinking water? For what body mass? For what developmental stage? To what extent? You'd have to ask pediatricians, neurologists, and biochemists - search PubMed and you'll find they are arguing about it all the time. Officially, for children and infants there is _no_ safe level. That does not mean that every child exposed to x ppm lead in water will exhibit any symptoms - but perhaps one will. Is that acceptable risk? - How much lead is leeched into the water from a joint? Over what time frame? How much variation is there, based on the skill of a plumber? Will _all_ joints of even a good plumber be good? What is the pipes are disturbed in some way? I guess one could ask chemists, maybe get a fluid engineer as well. There are of course places in the world where people live and raise children with (from our POV) horrendous levels of environmental contamination (such as the 'electronic graveyard' places in third-world countries). But here, the cost of removing lead wherever possible is a relatively small detriment economically; in the scheme of things a minor inconvenience. (I for one prefer PEX pipes over copper anyways!) I think that eventually everyone will be as familiar with lead-free solder on circuit boards as "we" are with the older stuff. And wonder what the fuss was all about. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 9 15:00:46 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:00:46 -0600 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBF876E.8090306@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >> And if an anti-hole ever collides with a hole then both are annihilated >> and a magnetic domain is emitted. ;-) >> Sorry, just couldn't resist... > > Perhaps we should rename 'chips' and 'chad' as electrons :-) Hmm Fish and Electrons, don't quite have the right ring to it. What do the Brits say? > -tony > Ben. From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 15:02:18 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:02:18 -0500 Subject: OT: ACM insurance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I looked at ACM a few years ago iirc, and decided that I couldn't use them for some reason. I can't remember why. The only way I've been able to get decent insurance as a consultant is through these employer of record services. I've only found two. One is called SoloW2 (nee Pace). IMO, they're crooks. The only other option is MBO Partners. (if you know of others, I'd definitely like to know!) We're using them now. They're legality nazis when it comes to taxes and the like. Basically, you have to incorporate, then you become their employee, then they bill your corporation for your services. This gives you access to their group health insurance. It's not cheap. I'm paying around $2000 a month for insurance now. This is for a PPO, maybe the HMO is cheaper. They want to run a minimum of $7500 a month out of your corporation to them. They take something like 3%, deduct everything, then send you a pay check. Alternatively, they can bill any clients you have as a consultant directly. But I really don't like this arrangement because you lose control over the client and any tax advantages you might get from being incorporated. Another option if you're incorporated is to form your own health insurance group. You need exactly two people in the group, so you as one employee, and a wife as another. One of you puts the kids on their insurance. If you do this, the insurance company is required to take you, even if you have preexisting conditions. They still may rate you higher though. And this might just be an illinois law. If you've just ended a salaried job with insurance, you have 63 days to sign up for cobra. Otherwise, anything and everything will be a preexisting condition. You can wait until the last minute and sign up to save a month or two of premiums. But remember that you may have to wait until the following first of the month with the new "employer". It might be cheaper to carry cobra for 18 months than to try to do something like I'm doing. brian On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 2:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience buying health insurance > through the ACM. My career has taken some very interesting twists and turns > and it looks like I'll be running a consulting firm for a while. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 9 15:02:37 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBE5A17.11920.2D9C365@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100408163239.V94775@shell.lmi.net>, <4BBE5A17.11920.2D9C365@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20100409125822.S42355@shell.lmi.net> > > We used a special Weller tip. It consisted of metal block (about the > > same size and shape as an IC base with holes where the pins would be) > > attached to a Weller tip sleeve (ie the part that held the tip to the > > heating barrel) On the component side you had a spring loaded clip > > that exerted even pressure on the chip away from the board. Apply said > > tip to the copper side of the board and the chip came out complete. > > Then the solder sucker was used to clear out the holes. On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I remember those--you could get them in various patterns, such as a > round cup for TO-100 packages. (I may still have one somewhere for > my Ungar iron). My recollection is that as manufacturers went to > multi-layer PCBs and buried ground planes that the amount of heat > required by the iron to perform the job got to be ridiculous. The > only DIP version I've seen worked with 0.300" wide 14/16-pin > packages. I've never seen one for a 40- or 64-pin DIP. I've never seen one the right size for chips and chads. I saw one for 40 pin ICs. It did not work as well as desoldering one pin at a time. My friend who had it stuck it in a drawer. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Apr 9 15:12:13 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBF876E.8090306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BBF876E.8090306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, Ben wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> And if an anti-hole ever collides with a hole then both are annihilated >>> and a magnetic domain is emitted. ;-) >>> Sorry, just couldn't resist... >> >> Perhaps we should rename 'chips' and 'chad' as electrons :-) > Hmm Fish and Electrons, don't quite have the right ring to it. > What do the Brits say? Now playing at Joe's Bar and Grill, "Fish and Electrons"! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 9 15:12:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:12:14 -0700 Subject: OT: ACM insurance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBF27AE.21995.DA45FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2010 at 12:50, David Griffith wrote: > > I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience buying health > insurance through the ACM. My career has taken some very interesting > twists and turns and it looks like I'll be running a consulting firm > for a while. I can't speak for the ACM, but I do have experience with its sister organization, the IEEE. At one time health coverage through them was a pretty good deal, but then got no better and then much worse than what my insurance agent could find. Same story for term life insurance, BTW. If they're like the IEEE, the ACM probably just endorses some privately-run insurance agency to handle this, not taking any active interest in it themselves. Sort of like my IEEE credit card (no longer says IEEE on it, just "Electrical Engineer") is issued by Chase. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 9 15:00:03 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 21:00:03 +0100 Subject: Canon PJ 1080A printer manual In-Reply-To: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com> References: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4BBF8743.1020507@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/04/2010 19:00, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Anyone have a manual for these beasties? I'm looking for the print > codes for it. I've found some demo programs and a few of the print > codes on the web, but nothing complete. The Operations Manual has over 100 pages describing the codes :-) The Service Manual, which incidentally is one of the best service manuals I've ever seen for any product, luckily has a two-page table listing them all concisely. I've put scans of the relevant pages (pp 1-8 and 1-9 of the Service Manual) at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/tmp/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 9 15:23:56 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:23:56 -0700 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: References: <4BBE0E77.3626.1B25D92@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <4BBF2A6C.15668.E4FDF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2010 at 15:53, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > There are of course places in the world where people live and raise > children with (from our POV) horrendous levels of environmental > contamination (such as the 'electronic graveyard' places in > third-world countries). But here, the cost of removing lead wherever > possible is a relatively small detriment economically; in the scheme > of things a minor inconvenience. (I for one prefer PEX pipes over > copper anyways!) I grew up in a house whose water was supplied (from the street main) using a lead pipe (not a soldered copper pipe, but one extruded from lead). It had the great benefit of being able to flex with ground movement. Other than the obvious signs of dementia, I've noticed no adverse effects. Has the EU moved to strip all the lead cane from church stained-glass windows and dispose of all lead flashing and gutters on historical buildings? If not, the attitude against lead would not appear to be very genuine. I also seem to recall a study that claimed a negative correlation between cancer rates and levels of basement radon in the US. --Chuck (P.S. My home town was also home to an American Lead Products plant). From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 15:26:34 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:26:34 +0100 Subject: Canon PJ 1080A printer manual In-Reply-To: <4BBF8743.1020507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com> <4BBF8743.1020507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Pete PW1080 is a ribbon dot matrix PJ1080 is a colour ink jet different animals Dave Caroline From ray at arachelian.com Fri Apr 9 15:29:44 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:29:44 -0400 Subject: Canon PJ 1080A printer manual In-Reply-To: <4BBF8743.1020507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com> <4BBF8743.1020507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BBF8E38.2020606@arachelian.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 09/04/2010 19:00, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> Anyone have a manual for these beasties? I'm looking for the print >> codes for it. I've found some demo programs and a few of the print >> codes on the web, but nothing complete. > > The Operations Manual has over 100 pages describing the codes :-) The > Service Manual, which incidentally is one of the best service manuals > I've ever seen for any product, luckily has a two-page table listing > them all concisely. > > I've put scans of the relevant pages (pp 1-8 and 1-9 of the Service > Manual) at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/tmp/ > Many thanks. :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 9 15:30:34 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:30:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100409130412.H42355@shell.lmi.net> > > > Easy -- coat them with aquadag and then copper-plate them before tinning. > > . . . or fire up the punch, and make a batch of chips out of "tin foil" On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Most 'tin' foil these days is aluminium. Here it's generally made out of aluminum. But it seems to be pretty similar. > And due to the oxide coating > it's a right pain to solder to. It is posible to solder to aluminium with > normal solder and flux (I have done it) -- the trick is to put a drop of > oil on the aluminium, then scrape the surface under the oil and quickly > tin it with a hot iron and solder. Most of the time it will tin. Once > it's tinend it's easy to solder a wire (or whatever) to the aluminium. That tip will be quite useful for some OT automotive projects! > But I wouldn't fancy trying to do that with 'tin foil' Any "tinning" of punched card chips and chad is going to be difficult, even if you did make them out of "tin foil". From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 9 15:32:33 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:32:33 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad References: , <20100408163239.V94775@shell.lmi.net>, <4BBE5A17.11920.2D9C365@cclist.sydex.com> <20100409125822.S42355@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BBF8EE1.613F0108@cs.ubc.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > We used a special Weller tip. It consisted of metal block (about the > > > same size and shape as an IC base with holes where the pins would be) > > > attached to a Weller tip sleeve (ie the part that held the tip to the > > > heating barrel) On the component side you had a spring loaded clip > > > that exerted even pressure on the chip away from the board. Apply said > > > tip to the copper side of the board and the chip came out complete. > > > Then the solder sucker was used to clear out the holes. > > On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I remember those--you could get them in various patterns, such as a > > round cup for TO-100 packages. (I may still have one somewhere for > > my Ungar iron). My recollection is that as manufacturers went to > > multi-layer PCBs and buried ground planes that the amount of heat > > required by the iron to perform the job got to be ridiculous. The > > only DIP version I've seen worked with 0.300" wide 14/16-pin > > packages. I've never seen one for a 40- or 64-pin DIP. > > I've never seen one the right size for chips and chads. > > I saw one for 40 pin ICs. It did not work as well as desoldering one pin > at a time. My friend who had it stuck it in a drawer. I received a 14/16-pin one sometime ago. Not very useful IME. Getting thermal contact on all the pins to get them molten simultaneously just doesn't work out well, especially on wave-soldered boards that are light on solder or boards with small pad areas (i.e. anything after about 1978). 10 pins are overheating while you're still trying to get another one to melt. I tend to stick with my 1970's Soldapullt (solder sucker), some wick on occasion, and working through the pins one-at-a time. From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 9 15:33:59 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:33:59 +0200 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay In-Reply-To: <4BBF7870.30009@hachti.de> References: <6F1EB2BB-A5D4-4647-A93E-5DEDC4DE4C8E@neurotica.com> <851db53738efa21df9115f94d56b2c38.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4BBF7870.30009@hachti.de> Message-ID: <053e5e00346b3004d4982fbbdfa0b67d.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Philipp, TLC : Thin Layer Chromatography, ehh, no, it's a band, or is it 'Tables, Ladders and Chairs', or was it 'The Learning Channel'? It's an English term and as far as I remember it stand for Time, Love & Craftsmanship, but I guess native English speakers can verify it. No idea what the exact difference is between an RRP02 & RP02, maybe the motor circuitry could be the difference (i.e. 1 phase power, 2 phase power or 3 phase power). Haven't you gone through the pile of docs yet, after all you picked up all the RP-11/RP0x stuff last Sunday and there is a fair chance it does list the difference between them. Regards, Ed > Hu! > > E. Groenenberg wrote: >> Indeed it is rare. A bit of TLC and it would definitely be a nice >> piece for any collection. > Ed....! > What is "TLC"? > And what is the difference between RP02 and RPR02? They look quite similar > - except the paint. And I > got some RPR schematics from someone in the Netherlands last Sunday - > thanks again :-) > Would be cool if the schematics fit my RP02 and RP03 drives - at least a > little bit. I'll keep the > stuff anyway. Perhaps there is some interest to put that to Al? > > > Regards, > > Philipp > > -- > http://www.hachti.de > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 15:37:50 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:37:50 -0400 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay In-Reply-To: <053e5e00346b3004d4982fbbdfa0b67d.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <6F1EB2BB-A5D4-4647-A93E-5DEDC4DE4C8E@neurotica.com> <851db53738efa21df9115f94d56b2c38.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4BBF7870.30009@hachti.de> <053e5e00346b3004d4982fbbdfa0b67d.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 4/9/10, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Hello Philipp, > > ...It's an English term and as far as I remember it stand for > Time, Love & Craftsmanship, but I guess native English speakers > can verify it. While that fits the acronym (and perhaps those words are associated with TLC in the UK), in the U.S., I've always heard it expanded out to "Tender Loving Care". The resulting meaning is the same as you propose in this context (though it skews a bit when referring to giving a person some "TLC"). > No idea what the exact difference is between an RRP02 & RP02, maybe > the motor circuitry could be the difference (i.e. 1 phase power, > 2 phase power or 3 phase power). I'd be curious to learn the difference myself. I've seen RP0x drives, but never heard of RPR0x drives before. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 9 15:39:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:39:11 -0400 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay In-Reply-To: <053e5e00346b3004d4982fbbdfa0b67d.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <6F1EB2BB-A5D4-4647-A93E-5DEDC4DE4C8E@neurotica.com> <851db53738efa21df9115f94d56b2c38.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4BBF7870.30009@hachti.de> <053e5e00346b3004d4982fbbdfa0b67d.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2010, at 4:33 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > TLC : Thin Layer Chromatography, ehh, no, it's a band, or is it > 'Tables, Ladders and Chairs', or was it 'The Learning Channel'? > > It's an English term and as far as I remember it stand for > Time, Love & Craftsmanship, but I guess native English speakers > can verify it. "Tender Loving Care" -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Apr 9 15:37:48 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 21:37:48 +0100 Subject: Canon PJ 1080A printer manual In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com> <4BBF8743.1020507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BBF901C.7090505@dunnington.plus.com> Oops, didn't register the second character :-( Oh well, I showed willing ;-) On 09/04/2010 21:26, Dave Caroline wrote: > Pete PW1080 is a ribbon dot matrix PJ1080 is a colour ink jet > > different animals -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 9 15:50:54 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:50:54 -0700 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an References: <4BBF6C25.1014C073@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4BBF932E.E73074FC@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 4/9/10, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Someday I might get back to working on it. Getting ROM dumps from a > >> working > >> machine shouldn't be difficult even for the soldered-in ROMs (a little > >> PEEKing > >> program or such), they may be out on the web already. > > They are... > > http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/firmware/computers/pet/index.html Great, I'll have to cross-check part numbers sometime to see if there are matches for the ones in the 4032 here. > > It might be easiest to desolder the 6502 processor and find some way to > > drive the address connections on its PCB position and monitor the data > > lines. > > An 80C52 or ATmega8515 (depending on what your preferred architecture > is) has at least 24 I/O lines and can be easily interfaced to via > serial port. A slightly more complex way of doing it might be to gang > a pair of '595s together for a 16-bit SPI-interfaced port (3 wires for > clock, data, and latch) to drive the address bus off the 6502 socket > then generate _R/W, Phi2, etc, and read or write what's at that > address from some 8-bit bidirectional port your tester happens to have > (doing read-only tests could result in a simpler tester). I myself > have been doing exactly these sorts of tests recently on a pile of > 1977-1978-era Static PET boards with a Fluke 9010A and 6502 pod. I've > even identified three bad 6540 ROM chips (out of 16 or so tested) and > one bad 2316. The 2316 was 100% bad (all reads were zero), but the > 6540s were about 1% bad - I was surprised at that. Interesting, I'm not familiar with the 6540, not sure if there would be any in this 4032. > Of course with a tester that's as sophisticated as a Fluke 9010A, you > could probably write a Fluke program to set up the PIA to scan the > keyboard matrix and test that aspect of the circuit independently of > any ROM tests. > > If you don't already have a Fluke + 6502 pod lying around and don't > have enough 6502 machines to repair to justify the investment, it > shouldn't be too hard to make a microcontroller-based 6502 memory map > tester, even from something like an Arduino (for those that don't want > to roll their own stuff 100% from scratch). I actually use a SWTPC 6800 for this sort of thing on occasion: RS232 serial to console computer, 6820 PIA lines to DUT, perhaps some intervening hardware between the PIA lines and DUT. Write a little 6800 assembler program on the console computer, download it to the 6800 to do DUT control and data capture and send the data back to the console computer. It would be nice to build up something a little less cumbersome, however. I have yet to get around to setting up here for programming modern microcontrollers. I'll take note of the ATmega8515, I was looking at PICs a while ago but just wasn't getting enthused about the instruction set. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Apr 9 15:54:20 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:54:20 -0400 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > http://www.merry-xmas.net/9track/ That is a CDC Keystone series drive. Can't really tell the model but I'd guess a 92181? The DEC TU80 is a very close cousin. It is natively "Formatted Pertec" interface, and I see the two 50 pin edge connectors for this on the back, but SCSI <-> Formatted Pertec converters do exist and there may be one bolted on the back somewhere. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 9 16:00:37 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:00:37 -0400 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> References: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> Message-ID: <4E3BBE32-AD07-412D-8D9F-EE9AFE1FFC96@neurotica.com> On Apr 9, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Michael Lee wrote: > I rescued this thing from a computer store in the area a couple > years ago, and I think it's time to pass it on. From what I was > told and what I can tell, this is a CDC 9-track SCSI tape drive > that was removed from it's original rack/chassis. At the time, > this computer store used it to do some data recovery on some 1980 > census tapes from Chicago, and they had rigged this to a more > modern SCSI based PC to do so. So I don't know what condition it > is currently in, and no idea if it works still, but it did before > it was stashed away into storage from what I understand. > > If you want it, I can ship it at your expense or more than happy to > pass it along any other means possible, it is located in the > Chicagoland area. > > > Temporarily posted pictures at: > > http://www.merry-xmas.net/9track/ CDC 92181 ("Keystone"), Pertec 2-connector formatted interface, not SCSI. A very nice 1600bpi air-bearing drive. Known to DECheads as the TU80, where it's mounted horizontally as a top-loader. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 9 16:02:17 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:02:17 -0400 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: <4BBF202C.22987.BCF48F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> <4BBF202C.22987.BCF48F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2010, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I rescued this thing from a computer store in the area a couple years >> ago, and I think it's time to pass it on. From what I was told and >> what I can tell, this is a CDC 9-track SCSI tape drive that was >> removed from it's original rack/chassis. At the time, this computer >> store used it to do some data recovery on some 1980 census tapes from >> Chicago, and they had rigged this to a more modern SCSI based PC >> to do >> so. So I don't know what condition it is currently in, and no >> idea if >> it works still, but it did before it was stashed away into storage >> from what I understand. > >> From the photos, this may in fact be a rebadged Fujitsu drive. ISTR > that CDC used them. Regardless, it's going to be heavy--bring > friends. This is a CDC Keystone, not particularly heavy. Are you perhaps thinking of the Fujitsu M2444A and similar drives? -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 9 16:01:29 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 23:01:29 +0200 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> References: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> Message-ID: <377c299c16b494c8f51b6f1b6ec67c15.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hmm, looks like a vertical mount version of a Dec TU-80 tapedrive. I've got 2 of them, very nice units. It should be a CDC drive. When looking at picture #4, it looks like it is using a PERTEC type interface, not a SCSI type interface. Are you sure it was connected using a SCSI interface? BTW, weight is about 35Kg / 80 Lbs. Ed > I rescued this thing from a computer store in the area a couple years > ago, and I think it's time to pass it on. From what I was told and what > I can tell, this is a CDC 9-track SCSI tape drive that was removed from > it's original rack/chassis. At the time, this computer store used it to > do some data recovery on some 1980 census tapes from Chicago, and they > had rigged this to a more modern SCSI based PC to do so. So I don't > know what condition it is currently in, and no idea if it works still, > but it did before it was stashed away into storage from what I understand. > > If you want it, I can ship it at your expense or more than happy to pass > it along any other means possible, it is located in the Chicagoland area. > > > Temporarily posted pictures at: > > http://www.merry-xmas.net/9track/ > > > Mike > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 9 16:05:03 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:05:03 -0700 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: TLC - tender loving care The RP02 is a Memorex 660-1 OEM'ed to DEC who resold it as an RR02. The RPR02 is made from a Memorex 3660 originally rented into the IBM peripherals market, refurbished by Memorex into a Memorex 660-1 and then OEM'ed to DEC who resold it as an RPR02 - the second R for refurbished I'm probably going to bid for it. Tom ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:56:48 +0200 From: Philipp Hachtmann Subject: Re: DEC RPR02 on eBay To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Hu! E. Groenenberg wrote: > Indeed it is rare. A bit of TLC and it would definitely be a nice > piece for any collection. Ed....! What is "TLC"? And what is the difference between RP02 and RPR02? They look quite similar - except the paint. And I got some RPR schematics from someone in the Netherlands last Sunday - thanks again :-) Would be cool if the schematics fit my RP02 and RP03 drives - at least a little bit. I'll keep the stuff anyway. Perhaps there is some interest to put that to Al? Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 9 16:05:24 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 23:05:24 +0200 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: <4E3BBE32-AD07-412D-8D9F-EE9AFE1FFC96@neurotica.com> References: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> <4E3BBE32-AD07-412D-8D9F-EE9AFE1FFC96@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > On Apr 9, 2010, at 3:21 PM, Michael Lee wrote: >> I rescued this thing from a computer store in the area a couple >> years ago, and I think it's time to pass it on. From what I was >> told and what I can tell, this is a CDC 9-track SCSI tape drive >> that was removed from it's original rack/chassis. At the time, >> this computer store used it to do some data recovery on some 1980 >> census tapes from Chicago, and they had rigged this to a more >> modern SCSI based PC to do so. So I don't know what condition it >> is currently in, and no idea if it works still, but it did before >> it was stashed away into storage from what I understand. >> >> If you want it, I can ship it at your expense or more than happy to >> pass it along any other means possible, it is located in the >> Chicagoland area. >> >> >> Temporarily posted pictures at: >> >> http://www.merry-xmas.net/9track/ > > CDC 92181 ("Keystone"), Pertec 2-connector formatted interface, > not SCSI. A very nice 1600bpi air-bearing drive. Known to DECheads > as the TU80, where it's mounted horizontally as a top-loader. > > -Dave Indeed. I converted my first TU-80 using a conversion kit (door, hinges and some little bags with nuts & bolts. Personally, it looks better when mounded vertically than horizontally (you see the tapes move). Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From mikelee at tdh.com Fri Apr 9 16:07:23 2010 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:07:23 -0500 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: <377c299c16b494c8f51b6f1b6ec67c15.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> <377c299c16b494c8f51b6f1b6ec67c15.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4BBF970B.4090402@tdh.com> The SCSI part is just what I was told at the time, I know very little about this thing. They could have had used additional hardware to make that happen at the time. So I've gotten a bunch of responses, and preference will be to those local. On 4/9/2010 4:01 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Hmm, looks like a vertical mount version of a Dec TU-80 tapedrive. > I've got 2 of them, very nice units. > It should be a CDC drive. When looking at picture #4, it looks like > it is using a PERTEC type interface, not a SCSI type interface. > > Are you sure it was connected using a SCSI interface? > > BTW, weight is about 35Kg / 80 Lbs. > > Ed > > > >> I rescued this thing from a computer store in the area a couple years >> ago, and I think it's time to pass it on. From what I was told and what >> I can tell, this is a CDC 9-track SCSI tape drive that was removed from >> it's original rack/chassis. At the time, this computer store used it to >> do some data recovery on some 1980 census tapes from Chicago, and they >> had rigged this to a more modern SCSI based PC to do so. So I don't >> know what condition it is currently in, and no idea if it works still, >> but it did before it was stashed away into storage from what I understand. >> >> If you want it, I can ship it at your expense or more than happy to pass >> it along any other means possible, it is located in the Chicagoland area. >> >> >> Temporarily posted pictures at: >> >> http://www.merry-xmas.net/9track/ >> >> >> Mike >> >> > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 16:15:43 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:15:43 -0400 Subject: PET 4032 keyboard scanning problem / was Re: Anyone have an In-Reply-To: <4BBF932E.E73074FC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4BBF6C25.1014C073@cs.ubc.ca> <4BBF932E.E73074FC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 4/9/10, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/firmware/computers/pet/index.html > > Great, I'll have to cross-check part numbers sometime to see if there are > matches for the ones in the 4032 here. IIRC, your 4032 might or might not have a 6545 CRTC chip. That's the critical difference to determine what ROM set you might have - The 12" PETs all had CRTCs I'm pretty sure, but I'm a bit fuzzy about the transition between 9" and 12" models. The ROMs are all uniquely numbered - just check your parts against the list on zimmers.net. I would be shocked if yours weren't there or at least mentioned as exact copies of some older part. >> ... I've even identified three bad 6540 ROM chips... > > Interesting, I'm not familiar with the 6540, not sure if there would be > any in this 4032. There would not be. The 6540 is an oddball MOS ROM with a lot of select lines and a non-JEDEC pinout. You will have 2332s in your machine. They will have a pinout compatible with a TI2532. If you do have a bad ROM, you could track down a TI2532 to replace it, or make an in-socket pin-swabber to relocate a couple of pins and burn a bog-standard 2732. I've done both. > I actually use a SWTPC 6800 for this sort of thing on occasion: RS232 serial > to console computer, 6820 PIA lines to DUT, perhaps some intervening hardware > between the PIA lines and DUT. Write a little 6800 assembler program on the > console computer, download it to the 6800 to do DUT control and data capture > and send the data back to the console computer. Sure. I did something like that years ago with a 6821 PIA hanging off of a self-built VIC-20 cartridge (since the protoboards were $3 at Radio Shack and the VIC-20 was about the cheapest platform I could lay hands on at the time - $20 or less at hamfests). What you pick is largely influenced by when you pick it. > It would be nice to build up something a little less cumbersome, however. I > have yet to get around to setting up here for programming modern > microcontrollers. I'll take note of the ATmega8515, I was looking at PICs a > while ago but just wasn't getting enthused about the instruction set. I am working on an ATmega8515-based clock board with a local friend of mine (we punted when the 89C52 was giving us some fits, and the 8515 has a compatible pinout, so there were no hardware changes to the target). I have a lot of Arduino (ATmega8/168/328) experience, and I'm a crack C programmer, so I've had zero problems with the 8515 so far (I'm using a USBtinyISP to program it, in case anyone is curious - $20 kit from a couple of places) - but you can make non-USB programmers from scratch less expensively). I'm really happy with the 8515 - it's powerful enough for what I'm doing, plenty of code space, I/O, timers, interrupts, etc. I also use Arduinos (ATmega8/168/328), helping me keep in the same mindset and use the same toolchain and programming device. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 16:07:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:07:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BBF2A6C.15668.E4FDF2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 9, 10 01:23:56 pm Message-ID: > I grew up in a house whose water was supplied (from the street main) > using a lead pipe (not a soldered copper pipe, but one extruded from Such pipes are not uncommon in the UK... > lead). It had the great benefit of being able to flex with ground > movement. > > Other than the obvious signs of dementia, I've noticed no adverse > effects. I 've been using leaded solder and drinking water from pipes with lead solder joints (if not full elad pipes) for most of my life. I am still here. > > Has the EU moved to strip all the lead cane from church stained-glass > windows and dispose of all lead flashing and gutters on historical > buildings? If not, the attitude against lead would not appear to be > very genuine. Not yet (but please don't give them ideas, I happen to like old stainded glass windows). On the other heand they did try to ban the use of lead alloys for organ pipes in orgnas with electronic action (on the grounds that this was then an electronic device and came under the RoHS directive). As somebody said 'Can you give one instance of somebody being poisoned by a church organ'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 9 16:14:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:14:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <20100409130412.H42355@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 9, 10 01:30:34 pm Message-ID: > > > > > Easy -- coat them with aquadag and then copper-plate them before tinning. > > > . . . or fire up the punch, and make a batch of chips out of "tin foil" > > On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > Most 'tin' foil these days is aluminium. > Here it's generally made out of aluminum. But it seems to be pretty > similar. As I am sure you're aware that was not one of my typos... > > > And due to the oxide coating > > it's a right pain to solder to. It is posible to solder to aluminium with > > normal solder and flux (I have done it) -- the trick is to put a drop of > > oil on the aluminium, then scrape the surface under the oil and quickly > > tin it with a hot iron and solder. Most of the time it will tin. Once > > it's tinend it's easy to solder a wire (or whatever) to the aluminium. > > That tip will be quite useful for some OT automotive projects! It is only soft soldering so it's not very strong (don't use it for anything structural!), but it does work. Once you've got the solder to flow onto the aluminium (that is, not sit as a 'blob' on top), then it is not hard to sodler a wire to that point, for example. I can't remember why I needed to solder a wire to an aluminium electrode, but I did and it worked fine. You can get speical aluminium solder/flux. The stuff I came across contained cadmium (!), and apparently there is a detectable amount of cadmium in the fumes given off when soldering with it. That bothers me a lot more than leaded solder, say. > > But I wouldn't fancy trying to do that with 'tin foil' > Any "tinning" of punched card chips and chad is going to be difficult, > even if you did make them out of "tin foil". >From readoign some old books on electricity (say 1920's vintage), it would appear that 'tin foil' was once something other than aluminium. Said books talk about making a waxed paper and tin foil capacitor (oops, 'condenser') and then soldering the foils together. No comment about any problems with such soldering. -tony From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Apr 9 16:26:41 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 17:26:41 -0400 Subject: on and off topic magazines and journals to be gotten rid of In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBF9B91.8070803@verizon.net> Joe Giliberti wrote: > I am trying to get rid of around 300 old magazines and journals for someone > I know. I am trying to get $0.50 per 25 > journals. Joe, I'm bad at math. For the whole lot, they want $6.00 ? Keith From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 9 17:00:13 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:00:13 -0700 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF2A6C.15668.E4FDF2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Message-ID: Hi The tin whisker problem may change the RoHS thinking. The problem is that for some applications, they can't allow the possibility of a tin whisker killing the device. Military and medical used come to mind. The difficulty seems to in locating non-RoHS parts. Many manufactures have moved to RoHS only. It is difficult to even make things without one or two parts being RoHS. Some claim to have solved the problems with various methods. None of these methods have the 10 year history to prove them. It seems that it is stresses in the tin that cause these. Other metals do this as well ( zinc and cadmium are mentioned ). From a collectors perspective, these systems will be soon considered in the 10 year rule ( or 15, 20 etc ). We'll be fighting these whisker ghost. We may be doing things like acid dips to flush these out. I may be fighting it today with an intermittent in a G4 apple. Just my thoughts Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 9 17:25:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:25:35 -0700 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF2A6C.15668.E4FDF2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 9, 10 01:23:56 pm, Message-ID: <4BBF46EF.3807.1545AFB@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2010 at 22:07, Tony Duell wrote: > Not yet (but please don't give them ideas, I happen to like old > stainded glass windows). On the other heand they did try to ban the > use of lead alloys for organ pipes in orgnas with electronic action > (on the grounds that this was then an electronic device and came under > the RoHS directive). As somebody said 'Can you give one instance of > somebody being poisoned by a church organ'. The best organ pipes are generally considered to be made of pure tin. However, there is a phenomenon known as "tin pest" where organ pipes in very cold climes (and unheated churches) undergo a phase change to an amorphous powdery allotrope of tin. (I like the French term "L?pre d'?tain"--tin leprosy--better). I've seen literature that seems to suggest that the same phenomenon may now occur in RoHS-soldered equipment. Nothing like having your local Salvation Army brass band fall to pieces (the European manufacturers are now using lead-free solder to assemble brass musical instruments. In general, I find the quality of the joints inferior). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 9 17:38:20 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 15:38:20 -0700 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com>, <4BBF202C.22987.BCF48F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BBF49EC.19950.1600946@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2010 at 17:02, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is a CDC Keystone, not particularly heavy. Are you perhaps > thinking of the Fujitsu M2444A and similar drives? Not the M2444 (I've got one and it's heavy, but I still managed to get it into a rack all by my lonesome), but a 2000-series. My grey matter is probably starting to leak out my ears, but I thought that some of the small R2R CDC drives were made by Fujitsu. Maybe I'm just remembering wrong. The last CDC tape drives I had any regular contact with were 65x series--cost reduced garbage and generally inferior to the old 60x drives. --Chuck From starbase89 at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 17:50:12 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 18:50:12 -0400 Subject: on and off topic magazines and journals to be gotten rid of In-Reply-To: <4BBF9B91.8070803@verizon.net> References: <4BBF9B91.8070803@verizon.net> Message-ID: I'll round it down to $5 for simplicity On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Keith wrote: > Joe Giliberti wrote: > >> I am trying to get rid of around 300 old magazines and journals for >> someone >> I know. I am trying to get $0.50 per 25 >> journals. >> > > Joe, > > I'm bad at math. > > For the whole lot, they want $6.00 ? > > Keith > From dave09 at dunfield.com Fri Apr 9 19:12:19 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 19:12:19 -0500 Subject: N* Lives! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Thanks to Dave Dunfield's fine work, I have my Horizon system up and > running! Excellent! > One thing still puzzles, me though: Is it possible to create and boot SD > diskettes on a DD system? When I boot at DD and bring up NST, it > cheerfully writes a SD diskette from an image. However, that image will > not boot. Should this work? You can create bootable SD disks on the DD controller with my utility and they will boot fine in a SD system, but you cannot boot them on the DD controller. I don't think the DD controller knows how to read a SD boot sector. Even it it did, SD bootstrap sector calls E91E - a subroutine in the SD controller to read additional sectors. I don't recall if the equivalent subroutine in the DD ROM is compatible, but I do know it's at a different place (the DD rom is at E800) - so the system would die at that point. Even if it didn't, SD dos doesn't know how to talk to a DD controller. The good news is that DD dos knows how to access SD disks no problem, so you aren't really limited in not being able to boot SD dos. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Apr 9 18:21:15 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:21:15 -0400 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF2A6C.15668.E4FDF2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Message-ID: <4BBFB66B.4010002@hawkmountain.net> I haven't done a lot or research on this... so I may be wrong... but I think I've experienced the woes of (at least first generation) laptops built to RoHS standards. We have a number of Dell laptops at work... we started out (unfortunately) with Inspiron 5100s, and when I came on board, I standardized on Latitudes (D500, a couple of D505, and D600). When those were no longer available we moved to D610s. Then onto D520s, then D530s. We don't have a current standard now.... As best as I know (which is the "I may be wrong" part above), the D500, D505, and D610 used regular lead solder. The D610 is RoHS (again, I may be wrong, but this is what I recall from back when we purchased these eons ago). The failure rate in the Inspirons was't to be proud of.... but that was due to a chassis with too much flex and screws would come loose and short out the mainboard. The failure rate in the Latitude D500s was zero, as with the D505s. We had one D600 that I retired to being flaky that seemed to originate with the mainboard or CPU, that at the time it was old enough not to merit more investment of time. Other than that, no D600s have failed (and I still use one daily at work). The D610s however.... I've got 2-3 flaky units, another unit that I retired due to broken solder joints on a connector on the mainboard, and one dead one that I don't recall what went wrong now. That is like 5 dead machines.... around 500% more than the D500/505/D600 series units ... The D520s/D530s haven't failed yet... but they aren't as old as the D610s yet so we'll see in another year or so..... W/o researching to verify, I attributed this to the lead free solder. It being more brittle I think has lead to breaking of connections due to mechanical and thermal stresses over time. I only hope they improved over time, as I have many systems and a laptop that I personally own that I don't want to die due to brittle solder joints or tin wiskers.... grrr.... Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on the lead/lead free solder changover at the D500/505/600 to D610 line in the Latitudes.... I have not researched it to verify the hypothesis and am simply going by memory. (which I've learned sometimes can be hazardous :-) ) -- Curt dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > The tin whisker problem may change the RoHS thinking. > The problem is that for some applications, they can't allow > the possibility of a tin whisker killing the device. > Military and medical used come to mind. The difficulty > seems to in locating non-RoHS parts. Many manufactures > have moved to RoHS only. It is difficult to even make > things without one or two parts being RoHS. > Some claim to have solved the problems with various > methods. None of these methods have the 10 year history > to prove them. > It seems that it is stresses in the tin that cause these. > Other metals do this as well ( zinc and cadmium are mentioned ). > From a collectors perspective, these systems will be > soon considered in the 10 year rule ( or 15, 20 etc ). > We'll be fighting these whisker ghost. We may be doing things > like acid dips to flush these out. I may be fighting it > today with an intermittent in a G4 apple. > Just my thoughts > Dwight > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 9 18:33:26 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 16:33:26 -0700 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BBFB66B.4010002@hawkmountain.net> References: <4BBF2A6C.15668.E4FDF2@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4BBFB66B.4010002@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4BBF56D6.4906.1927934@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Apr 2010 at 19:21, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on the lead/lead free > solder changover at the D500/505/600 to D610 line in the Latitudes.... > I have not researched it to verify the hypothesis and am simply going > by memory. (which I've learned sometimes can be hazardous :-) ) I don't know about Dell boxes, but google "Xbox red ring of death" for some good anecdotal material. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 9 18:56:55 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 00:56:55 +0100 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay References: <6F1EB2BB-A5D4-4647-A93E-5DEDC4DE4C8E@neurotica.com><851db53738efa21df9115f94d56b2c38.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4BBF7870.30009@hachti.de><053e5e00346b3004d4982fbbdfa0b67d.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <013401cad840$9c5e6920$3cfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:37 PM Subject: Re: DEC RPR02 on eBay > On 4/9/10, E. Groenenberg wrote: > > Hello Philipp, > > > > ...It's an English term and as far as I remember it stand for > > Time, Love & Craftsmanship, but I guess native English speakers > > can verify it. > > While that fits the acronym (and perhaps those words are associated > with TLC in the UK), in the U.S., I've always heard it expanded out to > "Tender Loving Care". The resulting meaning is the same as you > propose in this context (though it skews a bit when referring to > giving a person some "TLC"). Same here, TLC has always meant "Tender Loving Care" to me. However, checking on Acronym Finder finds 123 meanings! Here's a link to the first page: http://www.acronymfinder.com/TLC.html Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 9 19:53:14 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:53:14 -0700 Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay Message-ID: <0911214DBA3743DAA1F33CD9987FA2EB@tegp4> Philipp wrote: ... And I got some RPR schematics from someone in the Netherlands last Sunday - thanks again :-) Would be cool if the schematics fit my RP02 and RP03 drives - at least a little bit. I'll keep the stuff anyway. Perhaps there is some interest to put that to Al? Regards, Philipp http://www.hachti.de ------------------------------ The RP03 is an ISS drive and there will be little commonality in its schematics with that of the RP02/RPR02. For example, the former servos on a glass scale while the latter detents on a rack. As I recall the 660-1 (RP02) was a relatively short run product since DEC switched to the RP03. The Memorex 3660 (the IBM compatible version) was a much longer lived product so it got the benefit of many design improvements that were never in the 660-1. When Memorex refurbished a 3660 into a 660-1(refurb) I bet it got the benefit of all those improvements so it is likely the schematics are similar but different in detail. There is a 660-1 Maintenance Manual at bitsavers, no schematics. But the maintenance manual has a list of all the signals in the back panel so if you have the schematics that should be very helpful. Signals may have been added or deleted but the signal names rarely changed as the design was improved. You ought to consider posting those RPR02 schematics at bitsavers. Tom From technobug at comcast.net Fri Apr 9 20:25:01 2010 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 18:25:01 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <325F6A0C-6CCC-4CBD-8F9F-3998059FEE16@comcast.net> A friend in Buffalo insists that they are called chips there... CRC From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 9 21:42:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:42:11 -0400 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: <4BBF49EC.19950.1600946@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com>, <4BBF202C.22987.BCF48F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BBF49EC.19950.1600946@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <773ADAE8-6656-41E8-89C5-A6FA1A4492A7@neurotica.com> On Apr 9, 2010, at 6:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> This is a CDC Keystone, not particularly heavy. Are you perhaps >> thinking of the Fujitsu M2444A and similar drives? > > Not the M2444 (I've got one and it's heavy, but I still managed to > get it into a rack all by my lonesome), but a 2000-series. My grey > matter is probably starting to leak out my ears, but I thought that > some of the small R2R CDC drives were made by Fujitsu. Maybe I'm > just remembering wrong. > > The last CDC tape drives I had any regular contact with were 65x > series--cost reduced garbage and generally inferior to the old 60x > drives. Yeah. I'm fairly certain this one was made by CDC. It uses air bearings next to the head and has no tape buffering at all; instead it has VERY tight servo control on the reel motors. It pulls very little power and makes a relatively quiet, pleasant whirr when it's running, far quieter than a vacuum column drive. It's only about half as deep as a Fujitsu M2444. It's the model 92181, and it was OEMed by several companies aside from DEC (as the TU80). For example, I had one for a long time on a large Zilog System-8000 (rack form factor), with a Zilog label on it. Those drives are a real pleasure to use. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 9 23:47:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:47:14 -0700 Subject: Canon PJ 1080A printer manual In-Reply-To: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com> References: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com> Message-ID: Hi It is not clear what you are looking for. I'm told that the PCL codes are the same as the HP's. Dwight > Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:00:52 -0400 > From: ray at arachelian.com > To: > Subject: Canon PJ 1080A printer manual > > Anyone have a manual for these beasties? I'm looking for the print > codes for it. I've found some demo programs and a few of the print > codes on the web, but nothing complete. > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Apr 10 01:41:54 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:41:54 -0800 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BBF56D6.4906.1927934@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net> <4bbf2a6c.15668.e4fdf2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <64CFD3F4B0A.00000342n0body.h0me@inbox.com> >> Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on the lead/lead free >> solder changover at the D500/505/600 to D610 line in the Latitudes.... >> I have not researched it to verify the hypothesis and am simply going >> by memory. (which I've learned sometimes can be hazardous :-) ) > > I don't know about Dell boxes, but google "Xbox red ring of death" > for some good anecdotal material. > > --Chuck I work in the communications industry, and most of the radio products made now are RoHS. Many of the troubles I see in equipment made in last few years are solder related: Improper re-flow, insufficeint solder, cracked joints, etc. The problem with the whole RoHS thing is that the typical solder formulation (60/40 tin/lead, for example) was chosen because it's formulation was optimal for the job. The stuff they have to use now obviously isn't. We'll have a clean environment, but crappy electronic products. From bqt at softjar.se Fri Apr 9 05:01:10 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:01:10 +0200 Subject: Linctape reading? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBEFAE6.5080604@softjar.se> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > it's probably a laughable idea but... Is it possible to read LINCtapes with a TU56 and a TD8E > DECTape controller? I could imagine that it's possible due to the simple design of the TD8E > controller - most work is done in software... Nothing laughable about it. As far as I know, it should work just fine. > I just stumbled across a few of those tapes with unknown content. I first thought that I got a > DECTape which was wound to the wrong side. I just tried it out. The DECTape system seemed to > recognize just something on the tape - as it "rewound" the tape just up to the "beginning". And > then it was not able to read something, of course. > Oh, it would be fine if LINCtape reading on TD8E was possible - and readily implemented... > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > > > P.S.: I probably won't be able to give those tapes away without cleaning them... So offers to look > at them for me are quite useless :-( > If I do not find means to read the tapes, I'll degauss them. Or simply reformat them. Or both for a > clean tape start. Most of it seems to be working data. And some obscure software I don't know (yet). When you need to understand is that you can't use any "normal" software to read them, and that include any device drivers. The tapes are written in the other direction. And that's something the device driver is involved in. As far as I know, you can actually use any DECtape controller to read/write the tapes, not just the TD8E. But the same problem applies to all of them. You need a special device driver. But apart from that, it should be pretty straight forward. You basically do eveything the same way you would do with DECtapes, except you set the transport direction inverted to what a DECtape would do for all operations. DECtape and LINCtape are clever in the way they identify blocks though, so that the block markers can be detected the same no matter which way the transport is moving, which is why you seem to recognize the tapes somehow. (The tape markers were designed so that the fluxes would become the same no matter which direction you read them.) One last thing. It *might* be that you'll have to do some bitfiddling after reading the tapes. A DECtape (and LINCtape) records only three bits at a time. When reading forward, you read 4 rows to get all 12 bits. And of course, they get stuffed in a certain order. Reading in reverse means you get groups of 3 bits possibly shuffled around, as well as being inverted. Depending on the LINCtape format, and how the TD8E reacts, things might end up just right, or might require the bit fiddling. You'll have to experiment... Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Fri Apr 9 05:07:55 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:07:55 +0200 Subject: PDP5 Emulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BBEFC7B.8020508@softjar.se> Martin Goldberg wrote: > Someone from the IGDA-Preservation group is in the process of > transferring old DEC game code printouts in to text files, and was > wondering if any one from the list knew if there was a PDP5 emulator > (as a bunch of this is PDP5 in origin)? > > He may also require assistance in checking some of the assembly, as > the printouts and copies are not always clear enough to read > accurately. > > Any help would be appreciated, and I'll pass the info on. Depending on the code, it might be runnable on a PDP8. The main differences between the PDP5 and PDP8, as far as I can remember, is that the PDP5 keeps the PC at address 0, and stores the old PC at address 1 when an interrupt happens, while the PDP8 have the PC as a separate CPU registers, and stores the old PC at address 0 when an interrupt occurs. And some (combinations of) OPR instructions don't work on the PDP5. But that should not be a problem if you just take the program to a PDP8. So, unless the program in question needs interrupts, or play directly with the PC, I believe it might run on a PDP8. Johnny From jws at jwsss.com Fri Apr 9 14:53:35 2010 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 12:53:35 -0700 Subject: CDC 9-Track SCSI Tape Drive FREE! In-Reply-To: <4BBF202C.22987.BCF48F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BBF7E31.6040202@tdh.com> <4BBF202C.22987.BCF48F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BBF85BF.90908@jwsss.com> It was made by MPI / CDC. I have two of them, one a demo from them. As far as I know the unit was manufactured in Pennsylvania, with materials from vendors near the plant there, and in the plant, not farmed out. I can check with the project engineer and see. Jim > On 9 Apr 2010 at 14:21, Michael Lee wrote: > > >> I rescued this thing from a computer store in the area a couple years >> ago, and I think it's time to pass it on. From what I was told and >> what I can tell, this is a CDC 9-track SCSI tape drive that was >> removed from it's original rack/chassis. At the time, this computer >> store used it to do some data recovery on some 1980 census tapes from >> Chicago, and they had rigged this to a more modern SCSI based PC to do >> so. So I don't know what condition it is currently in, and no idea if >> it works still, but it did before it was stashed away into storage >> from what I understand. >> > > From the photos, this may in fact be a rebadged Fujitsu drive. ISTR > that CDC used them. Regardless, it's going to be heavy--bring > friends. > > --Chuck > > > From phil at ultimate.com Fri Apr 9 15:51:04 2010 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC RPR02 on eBay In-Reply-To: <4BBF7870.30009@hachti.de> Message-ID: <201004092051.o39Kp4CE065373@ultimate.com> Philipp Hachtmann asked: > And what is the difference between RP02 and RPR02? http://alt.nntp2http.com/sys/pdp8/2007/02/34ae6b17d5bbc252158d15202c42cbbd.html says: > It turns out the RPR02 was a Memorex 660-0 (IBM plug compatible) that > had come off rent in the Memorex lease base and then was refurbished > into an RPR02 and resold by Digital. Memorex sold a bunch to Digital > in the late 1970's. From wgungfu at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 16:07:56 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 16:07:56 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Dead or Alive... In-Reply-To: <4BBF6F1E.60809@atarimuseum.com> References: <849575.42637.qm@web55305.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <4BBF6F1E.60809@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I still have all those Corvus drives and drive shells sitting in the garage. Marty On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 1:17 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Corvus got into the clone PC business with Onyx-IMI (IMI of course has > already been making their drives) and later they bought OEMTEK so on these > systems, there was nothing too far of a stretch that they weren't released. > ? Also there was some pretty big fanfare when Corvus announced its 386 based > servers as they were one of the first companies to use the new Intel chip at > the time. > > So I will continue to dig and pursue my efforts to find more out. ? In the > meantime work has started on this: > > http://www.corvusmuseum.com and I should start having a good bulk of the > materials up around May 1st. > > If anyone has anything they'd like to contribute - photo's, manuals, > equipment, software please email me and let me know, thanks. > > Curt > > > > Al Hartman wrote: >> >> I can say that Corvus PCs did indeed exist. I used one, and sold lots of >> them while working for Lawrence S. Epstein Associates in the 1980's. >> There were other things Corvus that never got produced, this wasn't one of >> them. >> >> Al >> >> >> >> On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> >>> >>> On Thu, 8 Apr 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Let me know if anyone has one of these or has seen one, I'm told these >>>> may have been done by Tandon as they bought Corvus around 1987-1988 or so. >>>> >>> >>> Heh. ?You'll have to beat me to it... >>> >>> Seriously, though, are you sure this was ever actually manufactured? ?I >>> have a bunch of glossy sales stuff from the early 90s that shows a number of >>> Corvus items made of pure smoke and mirrors. >>> >>> Steve >>> >> >> > From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Apr 9 18:11:00 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 19:11:00 -0400 Subject: CompuPro format/copy utilities Message-ID: All -- Does anyone have the source to the CompuPro Disk 1 format and copy utilities? If they?re buried in a manual somewhere, I can?t find it. Any pointers appreciated. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Apr 9 19:37:20 2010 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 20:37:20 -0400 Subject: Linctape reading? Message-ID: <201004100037.o3A0bKu05832@mail.pdp8online.com> > It's probably a laughable idea but... Is it possible to read LINCtapes > with a TU56 and a TD8E > DECTape controller? I could imagine that it's possible due to the simple > design of the TD8E controller - most work is done in software... > Sort of. You will need to put an inverter in the timing track path (I put it in the cable). Discussion from when I originally worked on this. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sys.pdp8/browse_thread/thread/64889d6346d666fa/387b60ea9b93a690?lnk=gst&q=gesswein#387b60ea9b93a690 I was able to read some tapes but on the todo list is to build a better reader since many of the tapes had too many errors. http://www.pdp8online.com/images/ I can dig up the code I wrote if your interested but it will need some work since it depended on the special interface board I made for the pdp-8 I have online. Much of the work I did on the PC. I can also give you the code the web site uses to display the tape contents. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Apr 9 21:25:07 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 22:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: N* Lives! In-Reply-To: <4BBF1234.3000404@verizon.net> References: <4BBF1234.3000404@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, allison wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Thanks to Dave Dunfield's fine work, I have my Horizon system up and >> running! >> >> One thing still puzzles, me though: Is it possible to create and boot SD >> diskettes on a DD system? When I boot at DD and bring up NST, it >> cheerfully writes a SD diskette from an image. However, that image will >> not boot. Should this work? >> > Yes, however you must forst format the disk as DD and when you do the copy > you must also specify DD for the destination. Its in the horizon DD manuals. Huh. Don't recall seeing anything about that, but will re-check. >> Next hurdle is getting the Morrow Disk Jockey 8" controller hooked in. Some >> of the diskettes I received with the unit (none of which boot) have Basic >> and ASM programs that look like they're intended as support for the DJ >> controller. Without documentation, this is going to take a bit of >> experimentation, I think. >> > Get docs as that will save a huge amount of time. They are likely on > Bitsavers or other archives. I have the Morrow Design docs, but the software discussed is all for CP/M. This box came with a bunch of BASIC and ASM programs that look like they are intended to patch N*DOS for the 8" controller. Cannot find anything out about them, though, thus the comment about trial and error. Steve -- From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 09:29:38 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 10:29:38 -0400 Subject: N* Lives! In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF1234.3000404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BC08B52.2090303@verizon.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, allison wrote: > >> Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> Thanks to Dave Dunfield's fine work, I have my Horizon system up and >>> running! >>> >>> One thing still puzzles, me though: Is it possible to create and >>> boot SD diskettes on a DD system? When I boot at DD and bring up >>> NST, it cheerfully writes a SD diskette from an image. However, >>> that image will not boot. Should this work? >>> >> Yes, however you must forst format the disk as DD and when you do the >> copy you must also specify DD for the destination. Its in the >> horizon DD manuals. > > Huh. Don't recall seeing anything about that, but will re-check. > > I misread. A DD controller will only boot DD and the SD controller will only boot SD. The DD controller can read SD disks. Also there is such a thing as NS* dos being SD only as earlier version didn't know of the DD controller. I believe the DD controller came after V5.2. >>> Next hurdle is getting the Morrow Disk Jockey 8" controller hooked >>> in. Some of the diskettes I received with the unit (none of which >>> boot) have Basic and ASM programs that look like they're intended as >>> support for the DJ controller. Without documentation, this is going >>> to take a bit of experimentation, I think. >>> >> Get docs as that will save a huge amount of time. They are likely on >> Bitsavers or other archives. > > I have the Morrow Design docs, but the software discussed is all for > CP/M. This box came with a bunch of BASIC and ASM programs that look > like they are intended to patch N*DOS for the 8" controller. Cannot > find anything out about them, though, thus the comment about trial and > error. > > Steve > > Memory says Morrow never bothered with NS*dos only CP/M but it tould be iteretesting to see otherwise. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 09:38:41 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 10:38:41 -0400 Subject: N* Lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC08D71.3020700@verizon.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> You can create bootable SD disks on the DD controller with my utility >> and they >> will boot fine in a SD system, but you cannot boot them on the DD >> controller. >> >> I don't think the DD controller knows how to read a SD boot sector. >> >> Even it it did, SD bootstrap sector calls E91E - a subroutine in the SD >> controller to read additional sectors. I don't recall if the equivalent >> subroutine in the DD ROM is compatible, but I do know it's at a >> different >> place (the DD rom is at E800) - so the system would die at that point. > > Ok, that explains it! Thanks. > >> Even if it didn't, SD dos doesn't know how to talk to a DD controller. >> >> The good news is that DD dos knows how to access SD disks no problem, so >> you aren't really limited in not being able to boot SD dos. > > The newest version of DOS on a DD image in your archives was 5.0. I > was hoping to somehow use 5.1 from a SD image, but it sounds like they > issued multiple personalities for the different controllers - is that > correct? > > In other words, is the DOS file on that SD diskette targeted to SD > controllers or can it be copied to a DD diskette and booted from there? > > Finally: > > If I install a double-sided drive, will my present DD controller > support the "quad" density diskettes? The schematic shows the > side-select line being brought out, and the docs suggest that > bootstrap works the same on QD and DD. > > Steve > > Yes, you can use two sided drives with the DD controller. Note the SD controller and NS*dos does not know anything about two sided drives and does not terminate that line. But, NS*dos does not know about 80 track drives only 40 track so QD which is two sided and also 80 track can be used but unless you patch NS*dos it will not use cylinders 41-79. Also QD written media and 40 track written media could not be interchangeable as NS*dos does not know to double step to be able to read 40 track on 80 track drive. Exception is there are versions of CP/M2.2 that carry a configuration utility for QD disks and will use them. The boot is very specific and only boots side 0 and first sector in all cases. Being two sided does not affect that. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 10:27:40 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:27:40 -0400 Subject: CompuPro format/copy utilities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC098EC.2000500@verizon.net> Richard Cini wrote: > All -- > > Does anyone have the source to the CompuPro Disk 1 format and copy > utilities? If they?re buried in a manual somewhere, I can?t find it. Any > pointers appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.altair32.com > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > > > You want copy disk and format and they can be found in the Compupro areas of archives. Look here on the left side for compupro.. If memeory is correct that ZIP file has what your looking for. Allison http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/os.htm From ray at arachelian.com Sat Apr 10 12:12:41 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 13:12:41 -0400 Subject: Canon PJ 1080A printer manual In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4BC0B189.2090406@arachelian.com> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > > It is not clear what you are looking for. I'm told that the > > PCL codes are the same as the HP's. > Wait, so you're saying this is a PCL printer? I thought they made this before PCL came out. This is one of the first color ink jets, somewhere around 1983-85. From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Apr 10 12:57:35 2010 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 12:57:35 -0500 Subject: N* lives - Morrow DJ/DMA controller support Message-ID: <2F362C8C01124E3DBAE75447FDFE7E93@obie> >>> Next hurdle is getting the Morrow Disk Jockey 8" controller hooked >>> in. Some of the diskettes I received with the unit (none of which >>> boot) have Basic and ASM programs that look like they're intended as >>> support for the DJ controller. Without documentation, this is going >>> to take a bit of experimentation, I think. >>> >> Get docs as that will save a huge amount of time. They are likely on >> Bitsavers or other archives. > > I have the Morrow Design docs, but the software discussed is all for > CP/M. This box came with a bunch of BASIC and ASM programs that look > like they are intended to patch N*DOS for the 8" controller. Cannot > find anything out about them, though, thus the comment about trial and > error. > > Steve > > Memory says Morrow never bothered with NS*dos only CP/M but it tould be iteretesting to see otherwise. Allison ******************************************** The COMPUPRO.ZIP file at Retroarchive (that Allison referenced in her next msg) also includes some Morrow items. There is a formatdj.asm file for the DJ/DMA controller that includes a NorthStar option. At least it's a start. I didn't dig much deeper but there is definitely some more Morrow stuff there. Jack From dave09 at dunfield.com Sat Apr 10 14:52:01 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 14:52:01 -0500 Subject: N* Lives! In-Reply-To: <4BC08D71.3020700@verizon.net> References: Message-ID: <112DACB04B39@dunfield.com> >> The newest version of DOS on a DD image in your archives was 5.0. I >> was hoping to somehow use 5.1 from a SD image, but it sounds like they No, according to my listings, I have the following versions of N*DOS for the Horizon in the archive: NSDOS20S S NorthStar DOS 2.0 Single Density (DOS only) NSDOS40S S NorthStar DOS 4.0 Single Density NSDOS51S S* NorthStar DOS 5.1 Single Density NSDOS50D D* NorthStar DOS 5.0 Double Density NSDOS51Q Q* NorthStar DOS 5.1 Quad Density (Unconfigured I/O) NSDOS52Q Q NorthStar DOS 5.2 Quad Density HORHD1B D* NorthStar HORIZON-HD System Diskette R1.B HD221SD Q* NorthStar HDOS 2.2.0 H System Disk HD221IRD Q* NorthStar HDOS 2.2.1 H Initial Recovery Disk INSUA211 D* INSUA NorthStar DOS 2.1.1 QuadDensity S = Single Density (Single-Sided SD - 90k) D = Double Density (Single-Sided DD - 180k) Q = Quad Density (Double-Sided DD - 360k) * = Image was made from original master diskette. The 2.0 version I created from a disassembly by Barry Wazman - it has no copyright date in the code, however the disassembly listing that Barry gave included a statement that the original code was copyright 1977 N.S.C. The 4.0, 5.1S and 5.0D have an embedded copyright date of 1978, and the 5.1DQ has an embedded copyright date of 1979. None of these have the "MOVER" utility and appear to be fixed to run at $2000. The 5.2DQ has an embedded copyright date of 1980, and does have the MOVER program - I think this is the first version of N* DOS that can be positioned to run lower in memory. The INSUA release is the latest version of NorthStar DOS that I have, and has an embedded copyright date of 1983 - clearly they were using a different version numbering scheme. It can be configured for either double (1 side) or quad (2 sides) density. >> issued multiple personalities for the different controllers - is that >> correct? Yes, that is correct - the DOS version number has one or more letters after the numbers: 'S' = Single Density 'D' = Double Density 'Q' = goes with 'D', and means it supports Double Sided drives. Note that you had to configure N*DOS to let it know which drives were double sided (There's a table in the lower portion of the DOS image). Also note that N* accesses double-sided disks differently than most everyone else - instead of going side-0/side-1/side-0/side-1/... it accesses the first half of the disk as the lower side, from outside to inside, and the top half of the disk as the upper side, inside to outside. In other words, the lowest numbered sectors on the disk are on the track-0 lower-side, and the highest numbered sectors on the disk are on track-1 upper side. Whats nice about this arrangement is that you don't have to do anything special to access a single-sided disk - it's just smaller than a double, but the sectors are in the same place. It also means that until you wrote enough data on a QD drive to cross over to the top side, you could still read your files on a DD drive. And finally, since N*s hard-sector controller does not need a formatted disk, once you configured your drive for QD, you could simply write more data to it than before. (The 'INIT' command just does a normal write of a blank sector to every sector on the disk - this has the effect of setting up the directory, and also prevents 'T1' errors of you try and read sectors you haven't written yet). And also note that N* was developed with the original SA400 35-track drives, so by default there's only 35 tracks on a side (If you look at the early N* disks, the "slot" where the head meets the media is shorter than on later 40 track disks. There were patches available to make use of 40 and even 80 track drives, but most "standard" N* disks (including all the ones in my archive) are 35 tracks. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Apr 10 16:24:25 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:24:25 +0100 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <64CFD3F4B0A.00000342n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net> <4bbf2a6c.15668.e4fdf2@cclist.sydex.com> <64CFD3F4B0A.00000342n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4BC0EC89.6070504@philpem.me.uk> N0body H0me wrote: > We'll have a clean environment, but crappy electronic products. The icing on the cake are all these leadless IC packages -- BGA and CSP mainly. In traditional leaded packages, any stresses on the chip (like you might see from the differences in thermal expansion coefficients between the PCB and the chip package) are generally absorbed by bending in the leads. With BGAs, you don't have leads, so after a couple of thermal shifts most of the solder joints will have sheared off the board. Couple that with solder that has basically no ductility (read: it doesn't bend, it breaks -- SnPb bends, many of the new breed of RoHS compliant solders tend to snap into pieces), and you've got a recipe for disaster. I can see a huge spike in the amount of electroscrap sent off for disposal: solder failures and so on. You can argue that the lack of lead makes it "safer", but there are still other things in the plastic cases and PCBs that -- AIUI -- are much more harmful than the lead in the solder. Fact is, the Eurocrats decided they needed to look like they were doing something, so they passed an ill-thought-out monstrosity of a law... Note all the exemptions: military, aviation, some automotive systems (I seem to recall reading something about JCB getting an exemption for hydraulic control and engine management electronics in diggers -- fair game to them). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 16:57:23 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:57:23 -0400 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BC0EC89.6070504@philpem.me.uk> References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net> <4bbf2a6c.15668.e4fdf2@cclist.sydex.com> <64CFD3F4B0A.00000342n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4BC0EC89.6070504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > With BGAs, you don't have leads, so after a couple of thermal shifts most of > the solder joints will have sheared off the board. No. The little solder ball blob (the B in BGA) is there specifically to act as a cantilever to absorb stresses. IBM figured this out when they pioneered the technology in the 1960s. Without the tiny amount of give that the ball gives, failures would be so frequent that the devices would be useless, especially in today's world of relatively high power, small outline devices that are constantly going to sleep and waking up. > I can see a huge spike in the amount of electroscrap sent off for disposal: > solder failures and so on. You can argue that the lack of lead makes it > "safer", but there are still other things in the plastic cases and PCBs that > -- AIUI -- are much more harmful than the lead in the solder. PCBs? They have pretty much been out of the picture for a long time. Scrap plastic cases are now a resource - in China, scrap plastic is currently worth more than scrap steel. > Fact is, the Eurocrats decided they needed to look like they were doing > something, so they passed an ill-thought-out monstrosity of a law... For all the pissing and moaning about RoHS solder, the reliability numbers really do not show a sky-is-falling disaster. If it did, world economies would be collapsing. Chill... -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 10 17:45:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:45:46 -0700 Subject: Intel MCS-8 cards on Erik's VC Forum Message-ID: <4BC09D2A.27549.13DF566@cclist.sydex.com> There's a fellow who's run across a few (8080 CPU, RAM, EPROM) cards for the MCS-8, if anyone's interested. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?20071-Odd- Intel-S-100-Cards Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Sat Apr 10 18:05:14 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:05:14 -0400 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF2A6C.15668.E4FDF2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Message-ID: <4BC1042A.2060705@arachelian.com> dwight elvey wrote: > We may be doing things > like acid dips to flush these out. I may be fighting it > today with an intermittent in a G4 apple I'm most certainly dreading that. I have 3 G4 towers, a G4 mini, a G3 imac and an emac. :( I'd like to keep these boxes alive. So far the only dead machines I've had were due to bulging caps. These were older P3/Celeron x86 boxes that I didn't care to bother fixing the caps on. But the G4's are a lot more interesting and useful to me. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Apr 10 18:18:58 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:18:58 -0400 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <64CFD3F4B0A.00000342n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net> <4bbf2a6c.15668.e4fdf2@cclist.sydex.com> <64CFD3F4B0A.00000342n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4BC10762.2020104@arachelian.com> N0body H0me wrote: > The problem with the whole RoHS thing is that the typical solder > formulation (60/40 tin/lead, for example) was chosen because it's > formulation was optimal for the job. The stuff they have to use > now obviously isn't. > > We'll have a clean environment, but crappy electronic products. > The screwed up thing with this mentality is that, if a machine is worth saving, it won't wind up in a landfill, therefore the lead will never get a chance to leech into the water. Of course this doesn't apply to everything, but the whole idea disposable electronics is bad from the start. Perhaps this is just another "advantage" to the manufacturers towards electronics that we're meant to discard after a year or so. A lot of stuff has unnecessarily incompatible custom plugs, power supplies with ROMs inside of them designed so the device refuses third party chargers, non-user replaceable batteries that last around a year, cheap materials used for their cases and displays that easily scratch, and the guarantee of a yearly newer model sporting more flash memory, also non-user upgradeable. :-( Not to mention the rent seeking closed operating systems and custom "stores" from which you can only buy approved apps. There'd be exponentially far less damage to the environment if these shiny e-turds were instead built to last, upgradeable, and built open standards. Even if leaded solder was used. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Apr 10 18:21:28 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:21:28 -0400 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net> <4bbf2a6c.15668.e4fdf2@cclist.sydex.com> <64CFD3F4B0A.00000342n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4BC0EC89.6070504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BC107F8.90302@arachelian.com> William Donzelli wrote: > For all the pissing and moaning about RoHS solder, the reliability > numbers really do not show a sky-is-falling disaster. If it did, world > economies would be collapsing. > I think you forgot the obligatory "Oh, wait..." at the end of that paragraph. :) (ducking from the flames) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 18:31:52 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:31:52 -0400 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BC10762.2020104@arachelian.com> References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net> <4bbf2a6c.15668.e4fdf2@cclist.sydex.com> <64CFD3F4B0A.00000342n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4BC10762.2020104@arachelian.com> Message-ID: > The screwed up thing with this mentality is that, if a machine is worth > saving, it won't wind up in a landfill, therefore the lead will never > get a chance to leech into the water. Electronic stuff pretty much does not end up in landfills anymore. These days, a huge percentage of PeeCees are recycled, or stuck in the back of closets. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 10 19:16:58 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 17:16:58 -0700 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net>, <4BC0EC89.6070504@philpem.me.uk>, Message-ID: <4BC0B28A.30972.19177F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Apr 2010 at 17:57, William Donzelli wrote: > The little solder ball blob (the B in BGA) is there specifically to > act as a cantilever to absorb stresses. IBM figured this out when they > pioneered the technology in the 1960s. Without the tiny amount of give > that the ball gives, failures would be so frequent that the devices > would be useless, especially in today's world of relatively high > power, small outline devices that are constantly going to sleep and > waking up. Well, yes and no. The web (and IEEE's transactions on semicondutor packaging) is littered with papers comparing eutectic Sn-Pb solder with RoHS lead free and the results seem to be in favor of leaded solder. In particular, Pb-free solder seems to exhibit some brittleness that Pb solders do not. For example, here's a paper comparing shock (drop) tests: http://www.europeanleadfree.net/SiTE/UPLOAD/DOCUMENT/Projects/Drop_Tes t_Failure_Analysis_of_BgA_Packages.pdf It's not as if we can compare 70's era IBM BGAs with today's material, either. Today's BGAs tend to be larger and dissipate more power. When done badly, as in the Xbox "Red Ring of Death", failure results. When done well with careful design, RoHS BGA work is probably quite durable. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Apr 10 20:03:19 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 02:03:19 +0100 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BC0B28A.30972.19177F0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net>, <4BC0EC89.6070504@philpem.me.uk>, <4BC0B28A.30972.19177F0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BC11FD7.50709@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > When done badly, as in the Xbox "Red Ring of Death", failure results. > When done well with careful design, RoHS BGA work is probably quite > durable. I do wonder if half the problem is heat... the Xbox360 CPU and GPU were well known to be incredibly power-hungry (moreso than other CPUs and GPUs in their class) and put out a lot of heat. Couple that with a piss-poor cooling system... Heat + RoHS solder = increase in brittleness? Or we get into the hairy business of thermal expansion and contraction again... heat up, cool down, heat up, etc. I wonder how the coefficient of expansion compares between RoHS solder (say, SnAgCu) and 60:40 SnPb? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 20:15:58 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 21:15:58 -0400 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, In-Reply-To: <4BC0B28A.30972.19177F0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net> <4BC0EC89.6070504@philpem.me.uk> <4BC0B28A.30972.19177F0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Well, yes and no. ?The web ?(and IEEE's transactions on semicondutor > packaging) is littered with papers comparing eutectic Sn-Pb solder > with RoHS lead free and the results seem to be in favor of leaded > solder. ?In particular, Pb-free solder seems to exhibit some > brittleness that Pb solders do not. This is basic metallurgy - I doubt there is much debate here. How much the brittleness plays into the equation is where the debate is. > It's not as if we can compare 70's era IBM BGAs with today's > material, either. ?Today's BGAs tend to be larger and dissipate more > power. And IBM was soldering directly to the chips with no binding wires. > When done badly, as in the Xbox "Red Ring of Death", failure results. > ?When done well with careful design, RoHS BGA work is probably quite > durable. "Done well" is key. The fact that most consumer grade electronics is made in China today, with their "interesting" ideas of quality, traceability, accountability, quotas, and so forth, often stands as the unmentioned elephant in the room. -- Will From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 11 05:37:57 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:37:57 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 4000 VLC Power Supply Message-ID: <00a001cad963$10863120$31929360$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have a faulty power supply in one of my VAXstation 4000 VLCs (clicks on and off more than once a second). My worry is that I might have damaged it by overloading it because I know it is not that powerful. I suspect I could have overloaded it by putting in a disk that draws too much power (could that do this kind of permanent damage?). Does anyone have any guidance on what limit I should apply to the power a hard disk uses when considering what disks to put in these machines? Regards Rob From unibus at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 06:12:37 2010 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 21:12:37 +1000 Subject: eBay Disaster Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > I haev found it's impossible to predict the prices that things will sell... As a seller I look at the number of watchers: - 0-9 likely to go for the starting price - 10-15 likely to be one serious bidder, price tends to dribble up from the starting price. - 15+ war likely to be declared between multiple serious bidders and the price can go ballistic. A complete, untested PDP-11/10 system (eventually found my variac but too late to fire up the system) sold for ~$100 from a $0.99 starting price. In Australia just some of the parts and PCBs for a 1974 Electronics Australia EDUC-8 microcomputer (contemporary of the MARK-8) has attracted a bid at the $100 starting price while another auction for PCBs and some parts for a reproduction MARK-8 has not attracted a bid. All can be explained by the size and composition of the market. In Australia there are only a very limited number of people in my city who have an interest in a PDP-11, the MARK-8 is obscure and relatively unknown as Radio-Electronics magazine had limited market penetration, while Electronics Australia's EDUC-8 project would have been seen by Australian professionals and enthusiasts from that era. So these auction prices are currently related to demand. I'm in Australia and there can be category mismatches between the eBay.au site and the rest of the world. So that what you an auction you think should list into an equivalent category on eBay.com appears to just disappear and searches will fail unless your buyers are searching only at the top eBay level. Most eBay.com buyers appear to be unaware of this limitation on searches. Then there is the opposite of an eBay disaster where the object is just to find homes for stuff. On eBay you don't have to wait for the end of a 7 day auction to sell something. When trying to find a home for something oddball like a core memory system from a PDP-11/20 I'd be happy to accept a $0.99 starting price bid from anybody who expresses the least interest. End result is a happy buyer and you get the cost of the eBay listing fee covered. Does surprise people who don't know this option of eBay, plus this can upset people who expect to snipe an auction. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 11 13:29:54 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:29:54 -0700 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? Message-ID: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> Dear List, Some bits of equpment that I have get hauled out only rarely and I often waste a lot of time identifying them then trying to remember where the heck I put the paper that describes their operation--and then locating the disk with the related driver information. I've been considering archiving the information on mini (200MB) CD-R and taping said CD-R somewhere nside the equipment. Mini, mostly because their physical size is convenient and I rarely have more than 200MB of information on any peripheral. Does anyone else do something like this? I have little experience with mini CDR--are they reliable? Best reagards, Chuck From drb at msu.edu Sun Apr 11 13:34:24 2010 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:34:24 -0400 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:29:54 PDT.) <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201004111834.o3BIYOfI011232@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I've been considering archiving the information on mini (200MB) CD-R and > taping said CD-R somewhere nside the equipment. Mini, mostly because > their physical size is convenient and I rarely have more than 200MB of > information on any peripheral. > Does anyone else do something like this? I have little experience with > mini CDR--are they reliable? Seems like a brilliant idea, and I may steal it. Can't speak to reliability. You might want to consider the relative size of the scanned PDF docs that are common versus the size of the mini cds. The rectangular ones can be as small as 50 MB or less. De From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 11 13:40:49 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:40:49 -0400 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6B4109F0-4E6B-4E88-A72D-ED65FE580ABE@neurotica.com> On Apr 11, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Some bits of equpment that I have get hauled out only rarely and I > often waste a lot of time identifying them then trying to remember > where the heck I put the paper that describes their operation--and > then locating the disk with the related driver information. > > I've been considering archiving the information on mini (200MB) CD-R > and taping said CD-R somewhere nside the equipment. Mini, mostly > because their physical size is convenient and I rarely have more than > 200MB of information on any peripheral. > > Does anyone else do something like this? I have little experience > with mini CDR--are they reliable? I can't speak to the reliability of mini CDRs, but I can say that it seems like a whole lot less trouble to have a directory structure on a file server that's navigable by manufacturer and model number. I maintain about 26GB of documentation that way. I don't keep drivers or control software in there, but I could. Doing it the CDR way seems to me like it'd be more trouble than it's worth. Just a thought, no offense intended of course. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 11 13:42:43 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 11:42:43 -0700 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com >---snip--- > > Does anyone else do something like this? I have little experience > with mini CDR--are they reliable? > > Best reagards, > Chuck > Hi I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for years. Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files with junper setting. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 13:58:32 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:58:32 -0400 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 14:42, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > ?I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for years. > Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files > with junper setting. > > Dwight Right next to the solenoids? :-) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From steve at cosam.org Sun Apr 11 14:06:10 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 21:06:10 +0200 Subject: National Semiconductor memory module for PDP-11 Message-ID: Hi all, I'm looking for details on a 4MByte QBus memory module made my National Semiconductor. It doesn't have an NSxxx model number anywhere on it, but is simply labeled 980110014-211. I've managed to work out what many of the jumpers do, but a lot of them go straight into a couple of PALs which I'd rather not need to reverse engineer. A manual of some description would be nice although, failing that, even a summary of the jumpers' functions would be great. Even a photo of a similar module with a description of how it's set up would help at this stage. The main thing I need right now is how to configure the range of addresses the module will respond to. It works fine on one machine which has some memory on the CPU board, but another won't boot saying that there's no memory at address zero. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Apr 11 14:11:29 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 12:11:29 -0700 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: > From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com >> > On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 14:42, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for years. > > Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files > > with junper setting. > > > > Dwight > > Right next to the solenoids? :-) > Joe. > Oooops!!! Beter go check Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 11 14:16:56 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:16:56 -0400 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <5D03566A-AB13-4DF7-B9D5-A600063B1EDB@neurotica.com> On Apr 11, 2010, at 3:11 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for years. >>> Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files >>> with junper setting. >>> >>> Dwight >> >> Right next to the solenoids? :-) > > Oooops!!! Beter go check soda -> keyboard -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 11 17:47:56 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:47:56 +0100 Subject: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, References: <4bbfb66b.4010002@hawkmountain.net>, <4BC0EC89.6070504@philpem.me.uk>, <4BC0B28A.30972.19177F0@cclist.sydex.com> <4BC11FD7.50709@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <007b01cad9cb$4d1ee7e0$71fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 2:03 AM Subject: Re: RoHS nonsense, was: Desoldering Chips, was Re: Can someone, > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > When done badly, as in the Xbox "Red Ring of Death", failure results. > > When done well with careful design, RoHS BGA work is probably quite > > durable. > > I do wonder if half the problem is heat... the Xbox360 CPU and GPU were > well known to be incredibly power-hungry (moreso than other CPUs and > GPUs in their class) and put out a lot of heat. Couple that with a > piss-poor cooling system... > Whilst that is all true, alot of dust gets inside the games console, and the fan sometimes fails making the problem worse. There are mods that people do to help with the heat problem and keep the chips seated. After all, it is essentially a PC in a consoles shell. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Apr 11 18:04:30 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 00:04:30 +0100 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BC2557E.3040600@philpem.me.uk> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Sun, Apr 11, 2010 at 14:42, dwight elvey wrote: >> Hi >> I've put 3.5 disk in my pinball machines for years. >> Usually they have ROM inmages and some text files >> with junper setting. >> >> Dwight > > Right next to the solenoids? :-) > Joe. You never know -- he might have put them in a mu-metal box inside the cabinet :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hachti at hachti.de Sun Apr 11 18:25:09 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:25:09 +0200 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! Message-ID: <4BC25A55.6000309@hachti.de> Hi folks, here are some videos and pictures I took when operating an RK05f completely open with the exposed. Hope you like it! http://pdp8.hachti.de/?gallery/rk05f And keep in mind: I did this for curiosity and the whole thing only lasted a few minutes. The disk is back in the plastic shroud and nothing has been ruined. In fact the drive was still not 100% perfectly adjusted while I shot the stuff on the page. In the clips the drive performs part of the DEC maindec drive control test. I had a lot of trouble finding out the servo system's weakest part.... Now I managed the drive to run reliable and to be able to retract the heads properly (seems to be not so uncommon problem!). Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 11 18:52:01 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 16:52:01 -0700 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: <4BC25A55.6000309@hachti.de> References: <4BC25A55.6000309@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BC260A1.9080402@bitsavers.org> On 4/11/10 4:25 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > here are some videos and pictures I took when operating an RK05f > completely open with the exposed. Hope you like it! > You're a braver man than I. I would never get that close to a spinning platter held to a spindle by magnets. img_0898.jpg I have been told you shouldn't let the heads come in contact with each other like that. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Apr 11 19:33:57 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 17:33:57 -0700 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <6B4109F0-4E6B-4E88-A72D-ED65FE580ABE@neurotica.com> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <6B4109F0-4E6B-4E88-A72D-ED65FE580ABE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BC20805.32309.1FA22BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Apr 2010 at 14:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > I can't speak to the reliability of mini CDRs, but I can say that > it seems like a whole lot less trouble to have a directory structure > on a file server that's navigable by manufacturer and model number. > I maintain about 26GB of documentation that way. I don't keep > drivers or control software in there, but I could. Doing it the CDR > way seems to me like it'd be more trouble than it's worth. > > Just a thought, no offense intended of course. None taken. I find myself repeating things I've done 20 or more years ago, forgetting that I've even done them--so locating the information on a file server or in a paper file doesn't even occur to me. Then there's the awful feeling you get when you find out that you've already done something. But a CD-R stuck inside a cabinet might give me a clue. It's sort of like the situation a friend describes to me. He says "Old age is great--I keep making new friends that I've known for 50 years..." --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 07:25:51 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 08:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: N* Lives! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: > You can create bootable SD disks on the DD controller with my utility and they > will boot fine in a SD system, but you cannot boot them on the DD controller. > > I don't think the DD controller knows how to read a SD boot sector. > > Even it it did, SD bootstrap sector calls E91E - a subroutine in the SD > controller to read additional sectors. I don't recall if the equivalent > subroutine in the DD ROM is compatible, but I do know it's at a different > place (the DD rom is at E800) - so the system would die at that point. Ok, that explains it! Thanks. > Even if it didn't, SD dos doesn't know how to talk to a DD controller. > > The good news is that DD dos knows how to access SD disks no problem, so > you aren't really limited in not being able to boot SD dos. The newest version of DOS on a DD image in your archives was 5.0. I was hoping to somehow use 5.1 from a SD image, but it sounds like they issued multiple personalities for the different controllers - is that correct? In other words, is the DOS file on that SD diskette targeted to SD controllers or can it be copied to a DD diskette and booted from there? Finally: If I install a double-sided drive, will my present DD controller support the "quad" density diskettes? The schematic shows the side-select line being brought out, and the docs suggest that bootstrap works the same on QD and DD. Steve -- From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sat Apr 10 08:38:51 2010 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 15:38:51 +0200 Subject: Searching Sage-IV ROM 2.0/2.1 dump Message-ID: <4BC07F6B.50705@iais.fraunhofer.de> Hi, I already asked this in thesimh mailinglist, without replies, so maybe this list is more appropriate to get a response. I am working on a SIMH emulator for the Sage&Stride 68k machines (Sage-II/IV). There is a lot of docs available at sageandstride.org, which is the base for the development. One thing I haven't found yet is a more recent boot ROM than the available 1.2 version; docs mention 2.0 and 2.1. These versions have, besides presumably a number of bug fixes, support for the winchester disk card. Does anyone have a rom dump (any format) of such a BIOS (16k)? I already tried to contact David Erhart, the owner of the above site, but twice didn't get any response. Thanks in advance Holger P.S. The code is not yet ready to release (still some bugs in the FDC part, some missing instructions, and the HDC support), but I'll report in the simh developers list when it is. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 18:43:25 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 19:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interesting N* software Message-ID: One of the diskettes given to me has what looks to be support for running the Morrow DJ controller under N*DOS. Here's the equivalent of a README: 10!"LIST THIS PROGRAM" 20STOP 30 THIS SOFTWARE HAS A TIMING CONSTANT SET FOR 40 A Z80 N* HORIZON. 50 IF YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT SYSTEM THEN YOU 60 WILL NEED TO CALIBRATE THE TIMING CONSTANT. 70 PROCEED AS FOLLOWS\ 80 1.COPY THE DOSCHG DISKETTE 90 2.POWER DOWN AND HOOKUP 8 INCH DRIVES AND CONTROLLER 100 3.BOOTUP YOUR OLD N* DOS 110 4.PUT COPY OF DOSCHG IN DRIVE 1 120 5.PUT AN 8INCH DISKETTE IN DRIVE 4 130 6. LF BASIC 2D00 140 7. JP 6519 150 8. SF BASIC 2D00 160 9. NOW BOOT THE DOSCHG 170 THE ABOVE PROCEDURE TIMES THE 8 INCH INDEX HOLE 180 IN THE DISKETTE FOR 1 REVOLUTION OF THE DISK 190 AND PLACES THE COUNT INTO THE SOFTWARE. 200THE NEW TIME CONSTANT IS AT 64E5 64E6 210FOR REL 5 8DIGIT BASIC. 220 DOSCHG IS NOT DESIGNED TO RUN UNDER THE TIMESHARE PROGRAMS 230THE TIMESHARE PROGRAMS INCLUDE THE 8 INCH DRIVERS. 240 AT THE END OF BASIC. THESE ROUTINES ARE USED 250 YOU MAY REPLACE THE DOS 260 ON THE DISK WITH ONE OF YOUR OWN BUT REMEMBER 270 TO USE RELEASE 5 DOS ONLY. 280 THE FILE BASIC IS 58 BLOCKS LONG BUT 290 AFTER BOOTUP BASIC ENDS AT 65CAH AND IS 56.7 BLOCKS LONG 300 THE OLD VERSION OF THIS SOFTWARE USED 3 BLOCKS IN 310 MORROW'S CONTROLLER RAM. REV 4 OF HIS BOARD WILL 320 NOT ALWAYS WORK WITH A PROGRAM IN THE CONTROLLER RAM 330 THE SOLUTION WAS TO MOVE THAT SOFTWARE TO THE END OF BASIC 340 YOU CAN USE THE MONITOR TO TEST THE CONTROLLER RAM 350 BY TM E400-E7FF 0 360 THE PROGRAM GCOPY COPIES 8 INCH TO 8 INCH DISKS COMPLETELY 370 THE DISK MUST HAVE THE SAME DENSITY AND NUMBER OF SIDES. 380 THE DENSITY IS SET BY THE PROGRAM 8INT. 8INT IS USED 390 TO INITIALIZE 8 INCH DISKS. 400 THE PROGRAM COPY IS USED TO COPY BY FILE FROM/TO ANY DISK. 410 LOAD AND RUN BASIC AS A PREREQUISITE TO RUNNING 8INT,COPY OR, 420 GCOPY. YOU MUST THEN GO BASIC, BYE, GO 8INT,COPY OR,GCOPY AND THEN 430 GOBASIC. 440 PGM1 IS USED ANYTIME YOU MAKE CHANGES TO BASIC AND 450 WANT TO SAVE BASIC ON THE DISK. THERE IS A JMP AT 2D00 460 WHICH MUST BE REWRITTEN BEFORE SAVING DOSCHG BASIC. 470 THE BASIC IS SET FOR 32K STARTING AT 2000. Here's a directory listing: DOS 4 12 D 0 BASIC 10 58 D 1 2D00 CF 39 6 D 1 2D00 CD 42 4 D 1 2D00 8INT 44 4 D 1 2D00 GCOPY 46 2 D 1 2D00 COPY 47 6 D 1 2D00 PGM1 50 8 D 2 INFO 54 8 D 2 CONTROL 58 4 D 2 TEST 60 4 D 2 TEST1 62 4 D 2 Does this ring any bells? Steve -- From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Apr 10 21:57:11 2010 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 22:57:11 -0400 Subject: CompuPro format/copy utilities In-Reply-To: <4BC098EC.2000500@verizon.net> Message-ID: Awesome, Allison. Thanks. On 4/10/10 11:27 AM, "allison" wrote: > Richard Cini wrote: >> All -- >> >> Does anyone have the source to the CompuPro Disk 1 format and copy >> utilities? If they?re buried in a manual somewhere, I can?t find it. Any >> pointers appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Rich >> >> -- >> Rich Cini >> Collector of Classic Computers >> Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator >> http://www.altair32.com >> http://www.classiccmp.org/cini >> >> >> > You want copy disk and format and they can be found in the Compupro > areas of archives. > > Look here on the left side for compupro.. If memeory is correct that ZIP > file has what your looking for. > > Allison > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/os/os.htm > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 13:25:09 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk Message-ID: Has anyone on the list seen or work with one of these? I received a Morrow M-20 8-inch hard disk along with my N* Horizon and found the Memorex 102 disk mechanism inside (what a beast!). At initial power-up, a 10-ohm 5W resistor near the power connector let out a puff of smoke (the drive was in the process of spinning up). I killed power and started checking components carefully. There were no ominous readings across the 5V logic power rails and I traced things out enough to determine that this resistor was between the +24V power input and whatever lies downstream (probably motor servo). The platters move freely, so the motor certainly wasn't bound up. When I checked power supply voltages (it's an analog supply), I discovered that the +24V rail was delivering +44V (!) and the -12V rail was -15V. The 5V rail was right on spec. For a quick reality check, I plugged the supply into my bench variac and adjusted input voltage to yield +24V at the motor supply. Both other rails were within spec at this point. When I tried again to spin the drive up at the correct voltage, the series resistor became extremely hot although, again, the drive was on its way to full rotational speed at the time. I measured 20V across the 10-ohm resistor, which calculates to 2A and a dissipation of 10W. The latter number explains the heat. Not wanting to tempt fate, I shut things down quickly. So, opinions and suggestions please? A two-amp draw does not seem excessive to me, although clearly it's outside the design parameters given the rating of the dropping resistor. The power supply is certainly reparable, and before anyone asks it is delivering clean DC - ripple is on the order of 10mv. Why it's doubling its output is yet to be determined, but I did find a diagram at bitsavers. One thought that occured to me is that the +24V rail is probably powering the voice-coil positioner in addition to the motor. I felt around extensively, and none of the power devices involved with head motion or servo is excessively warm. None of them appear shorted or open. Not sure where to go from here. Steve -- From hachti at hachti.de Sun Apr 11 19:31:45 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 02:31:45 +0200 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: <4BC260A1.9080402@bitsavers.org> References: <4BC25A55.6000309@hachti.de> <4BC260A1.9080402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BC269F1.6020701@hachti.de> Hi Al, > You're a braver man than I. I would never get that close to a spinning > platter > held to a spindle by magnets. Hm.. You think that the platter could come lose and distribute its kinetic energy to arbitrary directions inclusive cutting my hand, arm, leg, face, or whatever gets into its way? I have not yet encountered a platter moving from the spindle while operating. The disk is centered mechanically and the holding force is quite impressive. It was rather difficult to remove the platter after the show: It bent a lot while pulling it only at two points (i.e. with my two hands). And if you really get a mad rotating platter, I doubt that it would be really harmful (except the very unlikely case that it is torn into pieces ("shrapnel") while spinning: It has no sharp edges and is very smooth except for the four screws and the sector slots. In fact I touched the rotating platter edge with my hand while taking the photographs. It's not a saw. (Adding saw teeth to the edge would make the device much more interesting) BTW the border between being brave and ignorant or even insane is quite unclear and a subject of discussion in uncounted works of classic and modern literature :-) > img_0898.jpg > > I have been told you shouldn't let the heads come in contact with each > other like that. Haha! 898 is the picture I like most! Exactly for THAT reason! Look at the picture again. Take a very close look. What is touching what? Look at the cables and the capacitor in the background. They reveal what is shown in the picture. Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 11 20:34:16 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 18:34:16 -0700 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: <4BC269F1.6020701@hachti.de> References: <4BC25A55.6000309@hachti.de> <4BC260A1.9080402@bitsavers.org> <4BC269F1.6020701@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BC27898.4080300@bitsavers.org> On 4/11/10 5:31 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> I have been told you shouldn't let the heads come in contact with each >> other like that. > Haha! 898 is the picture I like most! Exactly for THAT reason! Look at > the picture again. Take a very close look. What is touching what? > Look at the cables and the capacitor in the background. They reveal what > is shown in the picture. > cute.. what about mg_0904.jpg ? From hachti at hachti.de Sun Apr 11 20:42:53 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 03:42:53 +0200 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: <4BC27898.4080300@bitsavers.org> References: <4BC25A55.6000309@hachti.de> <4BC260A1.9080402@bitsavers.org> <4BC269F1.6020701@hachti.de> <4BC27898.4080300@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BC27A9D.3010106@hachti.de> > what about mg_0904.jpg ? This time it's the lower head you see twice :-) (All those pictures were taken with the platter mounted in the drive and the drive not only spinning the disk but running the servo test...) -- http://www.hachti.de From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 11 21:07:52 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:07:52 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 4000 VLC Power Supply In-Reply-To: <00a001cad963$10863120$31929360$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <00a001cad963$10863120$31929360$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4BC28078.7000708@neurotica.com> On 4/11/10 6:37 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have a faulty power supply in one of my VAXstation 4000 VLCs (clicks on > and off more than once a second). This failure mode of switching power supplies has been discussed here before. What was the common cause of this, Tony? The startup resistor or something, right? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 00:25:43 2010 From: shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:25:43 -0700 Subject: Xedex Baby Blue CPU Plus ISA card Message-ID: I just found one of these in my pile if anyone wants it. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 12 00:30:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:30:25 -0400 Subject: Xedex Baby Blue CPU Plus ISA card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00BE38CD-FD99-4F22-8664-8B0002DAB779@neurotica.com> On Apr 12, 2010, at 1:25 AM, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > I just found one of these in my pile if anyone wants it. Waitaminute...Is this is a physically blue ISA card with a Z80 and 64KB of RAM in 4164 chips on it? If so, I SOOO want that board!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 12 00:34:49 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xedex Baby Blue CPU Plus ISA card In-Reply-To: <00BE38CD-FD99-4F22-8664-8B0002DAB779@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 12, 10 01:30:25 am" Message-ID: <201004120534.o3C5YnaP015354@floodgap.com> > > I just found one of these in my pile if anyone wants it. > > Waitaminute...Is this is a physically blue ISA card with a Z80 and > 64KB of RAM in 4164 chips on it? If so, I SOOO want that board!! What is it? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 12 00:56:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 01:56:42 -0400 Subject: Xedex Baby Blue CPU Plus ISA card In-Reply-To: <201004120534.o3C5YnaP015354@floodgap.com> References: <201004120534.o3C5YnaP015354@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <06EE286C-F712-43E6-B709-1CA43739CAEC@neurotica.com> On Apr 12, 2010, at 1:34 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I just found one of these in my pile if anyone wants it. >> >> Waitaminute...Is this is a physically blue ISA card with a Z80 and >> 64KB of RAM in 4164 chips on it? If so, I SOOO want that board!! > > What is it? If it's the board I think it is, it's nothing particularly exciting...just a Z80 CP/M card. But I did TONS of work on one of those, wrote lots of neat software with it, and really miss playing with it, and I've never been able to find another one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 19:51:43 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 20:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Apr 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Why it's doubling its output is yet to be determined, but I did find a > diagram at bitsavers. One mystery solved: 2N6576 power Darlington with Emitter-Collector short. Still need to figure out why the drive is pulling so much current... -- From onymouse at garlic.com Fri Apr 9 13:08:14 2010 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:08:14 -0700 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk>, <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BBB7D11.4010608@garlic.com> <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com> <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BBF6D0E.2020409@garlic.com> On 04/08/2010 12:38 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 7 Apr 2010, jd wrote: >> Everyone around me at the time called it chaff. Even the native IBMers >> who used paper tape every single day. Those were the days when IBM >> employee payroll statements were still printed on punched cards. Even >> the hams called it that. At least those I knew. >> Maybe Chad objected. > > . . . so they hung him? And then lynched him in 2000? > >> Maybe they were just funnin' me. >> Did IBM really patent all those little chips? > > My father said that IBM had patented the shape of the chips. Remember > round hole punched cards? I've always assumed that the inventor was the one who created them. By rights, he should have been the one to patent that. I remember the little 96 column and two level cards that IBM, Lockheed, NASA and USAF used. Of course, the USAF ones didn't officially exist, just like their nonexistent spy satellite control facility that only the Soviets knew about--and knew more about than even USAF. They had some really nice, round and tiny holes. As a kid I was always finding a bunch of them blowing around on the street. Everyone used to collect them. They were more valuable than baseball cards. > >> I think I've got a few left over if they want them back. They should be >> useful as spares for some keypunch or other. > > There is an active thread on the list about how to desolder chips. > How do you keep them from burning? They may burn even without being heated. I've one Compucorp 40 column card that has it's edges burnt off. At least I think I still have it. it's not quite as far gone as the old Woolworth's binder paper that somehow managed to stick around since high school. Apparently it's got quite a bit of acid in it: Excellent for certain types of legal documents and other hot topics. > > Do keypunch machines start with lace cards and glue chips in? > Wouldn't you have to refill the chip box pretty often? Lace and chips do tend to get quite attached to each other. Even without any solder. Knits, too. == jd NOW HIRING: Bomb Testers urgently needed for munitions factory. No experience needed. Must be single. From m.jafari at bahamadsanat.com Mon Apr 12 10:11:14 2010 From: m.jafari at bahamadsanat.com (Mostafa Jafari) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:41:14 +0430 Subject: Need MK3801 datasheet Message-ID: Dear John, Thanks for ur info at web, How can I get information about MK3801 from U? Please help me Best regard From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Apr 12 12:19:02 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:19:02 -0400 Subject: Wanted: CompuPro System Support 1 card Message-ID: <20f2198b$6ed02809$1b0bcc91$@com> WTB: CompuPro System Support 1 card, working or not. Contact me off list, thanks. Bill USA From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 12 13:04:42 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:04:42 -0700 Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:25:09 -0400 (EDT) > From: Steven Hirsch > Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII > > Has anyone on the list seen or work with one of these? I received a > Morrow M-20 8-inch hard disk along with my N* Horizon and found the > Memorex 102 disk mechanism inside (what a beast!). > I worked on the 101/102 See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/memorex/disc/112-114.60-00_Memorex112_Fujitsu23 01_jan83.pdf for the Memorex 112 Technical Manual; the 112 is a later version of the 102 and they probably have a lot in common. Paragraph 1.2.2 shows the typically current wave forms which should be the same. According to the spec the start up current is 6A peak and 1.6A running. So when running yr 10 ohm is only 1/4 watt and should be cool. The peak power of less than 3.6 watts should only last a very short time as the motor comes up to speed and it's back EMF lowers the current to the running current of well under 1.6A (the running current supplies both the spindle motor and the stepper motor). Again the figure shows a spindle motor start up current of about 4.5A and the peak 6A occurs during stepping. Good luck. BTW, if you have an 102 documents I would really like a copy, personally or at bitsavers. Tom From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Apr 12 13:16:14 2010 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:16:14 -0400 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? Message-ID: <01CADA4A.C6801BC0@MSE_D03> -----------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 17:33:57 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info? On 11 Apr 2010 at 14:40, Dave McGuire wrote: > I can't speak to the reliability of mini CDRs, but I can say that > it seems like a whole lot less trouble to have a directory structure > on a file server that's navigable by manufacturer and model number. > I maintain about 26GB of documentation that way. I don't keep > drivers or control software in there, but I could. Doing it the CDR > way seems to me like it'd be more trouble than it's worth. > > Just a thought, no offense intended of course. None taken. I find myself repeating things I've done 20 or more years ago, forgetting that I've even done them--so locating the information on a file server or in a paper file doesn't even occur to me. Then there's the awful feeling you get when you find out that you've already done something. But a CD-R stuck inside a cabinet might give me a clue. It's sort of like the situation a friend describes to me. He says "Old age is great--I keep making new friends that I've known for 50 years..." --Chuck -----------------------Reply: Oh, how I can identify with that... the other advantage is that you can watch the same movies over and over and they're always new. Re your docs: why not the best of both worlds, a label/postit/paper inside the equipment with a reminder that you've been there before and a pointer to where the machine-readable stuff can be found on your server? m From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 12 14:04:12 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Xedex Baby Blue CPU Plus ISA card In-Reply-To: <201004120534.o3C5YnaP015354@floodgap.com> References: <201004120534.o3C5YnaP015354@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20100412120102.G81747@shell.lmi.net> > > > I just found one of these in my pile if anyone wants it. > > Waitaminute...Is this is a physically blue ISA card with a Z80 and > > 64KB of RAM in 4164 chips on it? If so, I SOOO want that board!! On Sun, 11 Apr 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > What is it? It's a coprocessor card that lets you upgrade a 5150 into a CP/M capable computer. I sure wish that Dave were to have been at VCF when I sold off that stuff! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 12 14:08:21 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBF6D0E.2020409@garlic.com> References: , , <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk>, <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BBB7D11.4010608@garlic.com> <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com> <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net> <4BBF6D0E.2020409@garlic.com> Message-ID: <20100412120623.J81747@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 9 Apr 2010, jd wrote: > I've always assumed that the inventor was the one who created them. By > rights, he should have been the one to patent that. IBM has more lawyers. > it's not quite as far gone as the old Woolworth's binder paper that > somehow managed to stick around since high school. Apparently it's got > quite a bit of acid in it: Excellent for certain types of legal > documents and other hot topics. "Lunch Counter Operations Manual"? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 15:08:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:08:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 11, 10 02:25:09 pm Message-ID: > > Has anyone on the list seen or work with one of these? I received a > Morrow M-20 8-inch hard disk along with my N* Horizon and found the > Memorex 102 disk mechanism inside (what a beast!). > > At initial power-up, a 10-ohm 5W resistor near the power connector let out > a puff of smoke (the drive was in the process of spinning up). I killed > power and started checking components carefully. There were no ominous > readings across the 5V logic power rails and I traced things out enough to > determine that this resistor was between the +24V power input and whatever > lies downstream (probably motor servo). It would be worth knowing what that resistor feeds. The obvious things to need the 24V rail are the spindle motor and positioner (which could be a stepper nmotor in an old/small drive like this, or it might be a voice coil). I would also suspect that the 24V line is regualted down to 12V for some of the analogue circuitry. > > The platters move freely, so the motor certainly wasn't bound up. When I > checked power supply voltages (it's an analog supply), I discovered that > the +24V rail was delivering +44V (!) and the -12V rail was -15V. The 5V > rail was right on spec. Ouch. It's possible there's some kind of overvoltage protection downstream of that resistor (like a fat zneer diode) which has shorted. Or maybe somthign took a dislike to the high votlage. Or perhaps there is a real fault. Since it spins up, I guess the spindle motor is OK. Can you diconnect the positioner actuator and see if the current drops then? Also, find some of the analouge chips in the read amplifier circuit and measure their supply voltages. They should almost certainly be symmetrical about ground. If the +ve voltage is low or missing, trace it back to where it comes from (maybe a 3 terminal regulator like a 7812) > > For a quick reality check, I plugged the supply into my bench variac and > adjusted input voltage to yield +24V at the motor supply. Both other > rails were within spec at this point. > > When I tried again to spin the drive up at the correct voltage, the series > resistor became extremely hot although, again, the drive was on its way to > full rotational speed at the time. I measured 20V across the 10-ohm > resistor, which calculates to 2A and a dissipation of 10W. The latter Am I missing something? 2A and 20V is a power dissipation of 40W. > number explains the heat. Not wanting to tempt fate, I shut things down > quickly. > > So, opinions and suggestions please? A two-amp draw does not seem Firstly, fix the PSU. I would be much happier knowing that that was nothign to do with the problem. Measure the current drawn from the 24V line (I susepct it's rather more than the 2A measured through that resistor, and that some parts fo the drive are not suplied via it) Remove the reissotr and power up. Does the spindle run? Can you find which parts of the drive are now lacking a +ve supply line? > excessive to me, although clearly it's outside the design parameters given > the rating of the dropping resistor. The power supply is certainly > reparable, and before anyone asks it is delivering clean DC - ripple is on > the order of 10mv. Why it's doubling its output is yet to be determined, > but I did find a diagram at bitsavers. > > One thought that occured to me is that the +24V rail is probably powering > the voice-coil positioner in addition to the motor. I felt around > extensively, and none of the power devices involved with head motion or > servo is excessively warm. None of them appear shorted or open. If you know it's a voice coil, try measuring the voltage across the voice coil. If ti's being driven hard, it will draw a high current from the supply (after all the coil has a pretty low DC resistance). Maybe the heads have stuck so the thing is not managing to move the heads to find the servo data (but it's still trying). Maybe there's something wrong with the driver circuitry, but not the output stage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 15:10:08 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:10:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Apr 11, 10 12:11:29 pm Message-ID: > > Right next to the solenoids? :-) > > Joe. > > > > =20 > > Oooops!!! Beter go check Did I just read what I think I just read? [Mind you, it does take a reasonable magnetic field to affect a floppy disk. After all, the 3.5" disk is magnetically held to the motor spindle in the drive.] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 15:19:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:19:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: <4BC260A1.9080402@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Apr 11, 10 04:52:01 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/11/10 4:25 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Hi folks, > > > > here are some videos and pictures I took when operating an RK05f > > completely open with the exposed. Hope you like it! > > > > You're a braver man than I. I would never get that close to a spinning platter > held to a spindle by magnets. Why? It's mechaniclaly centered by the spindle. And I don't think the plastic pack casing would do much if the disk did decide to break up, so not having the casing is not much of a hazard. > > > img_0898.jpg > > I have been told you shouldn't let the heads come in contact with each > other like that. I don;t think they are touching. I think there's a spinning disk between them. Maybe what you are seing is one head and its refleciton on the disk. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 15:21:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:21:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: <4BC25A55.6000309@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Apr 12, 10 01:25:09 am Message-ID: > I had a lot of trouble finding out the > servo system's weakest > part.... Now I managed the drive to run reliable and to be able to > retract the heads properly (seems > to be not so uncommon problem!). Plkease don't keep us in suspense :-). What is this common problem? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 12 15:27:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:27:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAXstation 4000 VLC Power Supply In-Reply-To: <4BC28078.7000708@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 11, 10 10:07:52 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/11/10 6:37 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I have a faulty power supply in one of my VAXstation 4000 VLCs (clicks on > > and off more than once a second). > > This failure mode of switching power supplies has been discussed here > before. What was the common cause of this, Tony? The startup resistor > or something, right? No. If the startup resisotr fails, the supply simply fails to start up. The outputs sit at 0V. A PSU that 'tweets' or clicks is starting up, detecting a problem and shutting down to protect itself and the load. And then trying again. This may be due to a fault in the overcurrent circuitry (but whatever yo do, don't disable said protection to see what happens unless you like scraping bits of transistor off the ceiling!). It may be a shorted rectifier or capactior on the secondary side. It may be tghat the crowbar circuit is tripping and shorting out one of the outputs, either because of a fault in the crowbar circuit or becuase there is a problem with the regulation loop and the output voltages are genuinely getting too high. Or it may be high ESR capacitor on the secondary side so there are spikes on the otuptus to trip the crowbar. It might even be an open capacitor on the primary side so the chopper control circuit can't get a steady supply (had that one once, took me a long time to find it!). I asusme you have a suitable load on this supply. Some PSUs will not regualte correctly (and thys trip the crowbar) if there is insufficient load. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Apr 12 16:06:19 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:06:19 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 4000 VLC Power Supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > A PSU that 'tweets' or clicks is starting up, detecting a problem and > shutting down to protect itself and the load. And then trying again. Many moons ago I had a VS3100-76 more or less do this. I (eventually) disconnected everything except the motherboard and PSU (no DIMMs, nothing) and amazingly it all worked. By this time I'd ripped everything apart and even removed the mainboard from the case. A simple process of adding bits one at a time located the culprit: the mouse. This might be a reasonable starting point: have just the PSU and the mainboard connected and nothing else (no monitor, no kbd, no mouse) and see if the tweeting stops. If it does, you can now add bits one a a time (kbd and monitor first, I think without a kbd it won't boot properly). Obviously if your PSU is now flakey or your mainboard is kaput then you have more work ahead. Antonio From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 12 16:29:19 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:29:19 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 4000 VLC Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: <4BC28078.7000708@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Apr 11, 10 10:07:52 pm Message-ID: <013a01cada87$376c1230$a6443690$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 12 April 2010 21:28 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAXstation 4000 VLC Power Supply > > > > > On 4/11/10 6:37 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > I have a faulty power supply in one of my VAXstation 4000 VLCs > (clicks on > > > and off more than once a second). > > > > This failure mode of switching power supplies has been discussed > here > > before. What was the common cause of this, Tony? The startup > resistor > > or something, right? > > No. If the startup resisotr fails, the supply simply fails to start up. > The outputs sit at 0V. > > A PSU that 'tweets' or clicks is starting up, detecting a problem and > shutting down to protect itself and the load. And then trying again. > > This may be due to a fault in the overcurrent circuitry (but whatever > yo > do, don't disable said protection to see what happens unless you like > scraping bits of transistor off the ceiling!). It may be a shorted > rectifier or capactior on the secondary side. It may be tghat the > crowbar > circuit is tripping and shorting out one of the outputs, either because > of a fault in the crowbar circuit or becuase there is a problem with > the > regulation loop and the output voltages are genuinely getting too high. > Or it may be high ESR capacitor on the secondary side so there are > spikes on the otuptus to trip the crowbar. It might even be an open > capacitor on the primary side so the chopper control circuit can't get > a > steady supply (had that one once, took me a long time to find it!). > > I asusme you have a suitable load on this supply. Some PSUs will not > regualte correctly (and thys trip the crowbar) if there is insufficient > load. > > -tony There is definitely a load attached. I just wish I had the electronics knowledge to understand all your suggestions. I am going to be at the DEC Legacy event that is happening next weekend and will take it with me in case there is anyone there who understands this stuff. Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 12 16:31:19 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:31:19 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 4000 VLC Power Supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013b01cada87$80a668b0$81f33a10$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 12 April 2010 22:06 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VAXstation 4000 VLC Power Supply > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > > > A PSU that 'tweets' or clicks is starting up, detecting a problem and > > shutting down to protect itself and the load. And then trying again. > > Many moons ago I had a VS3100-76 more or less do this. I (eventually) > disconnected everything except the motherboard and PSU (no DIMMs, > nothing) > and amazingly it all worked. By this time I'd ripped everything apart > and > even removed the mainboard from the case. > > A simple process of adding bits one at a time located the culprit: > the mouse. > > This might be a reasonable starting point: have just the PSU and the > mainboard connected and nothing else (no monitor, no kbd, no mouse) > and see if the tweeting stops. If it does, you can now add bits one > a a time (kbd and monitor first, I think without a kbd it won't boot > properly). > > Obviously if your PSU is now flakey or your mainboard is kaput then > you have more work ahead. > > Antonio I swapped the PSUs of two VLCs and the fault followed the PSU, so I think the chances of it being something connected to the PSU are quite low. Nevertheless I will try removing stuff to see what happens, but there isn't really that much to remove. Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 12 16:43:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:43:02 -0700 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Apr 11, 10 12:11:29 pm, Message-ID: <4BC33176.22118.11AAB76@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Apr 2010 at 21:10, Tony Duell wrote: > [Mind you, it does take a reasonable magnetic field to affect a floppy > disk. After all, the 3.5" disk is magnetically held to the motor > spindle in the drive.] It's the AC fields that'll getcha. DC magnetic fields have to be pretty darned strong to affect floppies. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 12 17:27:03 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 15:27:03 -0700 Subject: Need MK3801 datasheet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC39E37.9020503@bitsavers.org> On 4/12/10 8:11 AM, Mostafa Jafari wrote: > How can I get information about MK3801 page 457 of http://bitsavers.org/pdf/mostek/_dataBooks/1984_Mostek.pdf From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Apr 12 18:21:44 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:21:44 -0500 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC33176.22118.11AAB76@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "dwight elvey",at Apr 11, 10 12:11:29 pm, ,<4BC33176.22118.11AAB76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 14:43:02 -0700 > Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info? > > On 12 Apr 2010 at 21:10, Tony Duell wrote: > > > [Mind you, it does take a reasonable magnetic field to affect a floppy > > disk. After all, the 3.5" disk is magnetically held to the motor > > spindle in the drive.] > > It's the AC fields that'll getcha. DC magnetic fields have to be > pretty darned strong to affect floppies. > > --Chuck > Exactly. Yea, how many times have we seen the video tape in the police property room erased, with a strong magnet placed nearby. Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Apr 12 18:42:08 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:42:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: telegrams then and now Message-ID: I just discovered that Western Union's old telegram service isn't really dead -- just sold to an outfit called "iTelegram". Never having really looked at telegram services until now, I was wondering if anyone had any information on what a same-day telegram cost way back when. Nowadays, iTelegram does it for $45 + 88 cents a word. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 12 18:54:11 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:54:11 -0700 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Apr 11, 10 12:11:29 pm, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > > Right next to the solenoids? :-) > > > Joe. > > > > > > > =20 > > > > Oooops!!! Beter go check > > Did I just read what I think I just read? > > [Mind you, it does take a reasonable magnetic field to affect a floppy > disk. After all, the 3.5" disk is magnetically held to the motor spindle > in the drive.] > Hi I was just kidding. Most all the electronic pinballs have little stray magnetic fields on the bottom of the box. Most is on the play field. More dangerous to floppies is all the dust and particles that rain down from the play field. I use a bagie stapled to the side of the back box as a safe location. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 12 19:30:41 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:30:41 -0700 Subject: Canon PJ 1080A printer manual In-Reply-To: <4BC0B189.2090406@arachelian.com> References: <4BBF6B54.3000604@arachelian.com>, , <4BC0B189.2090406@arachelian.com> Message-ID: > From: ray at arachelian.com > > dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > > > It is not clear what you are looking for. I'm told that the > > > > PCL codes are the same as the HP's. > > > > Wait, so you're saying this is a PCL printer? I thought they made this > before PCL came out. This is one of the first color ink jets, somewhere > around 1983-85. Hi Ray No, I guess not. It wasn't until later that they began using PCL codes. I have a few codes used for their black and white bubble jet and a few for their early laser beam. If it is something simple, I may be able to help some. I have source code for the Canon Cat and it has drivers ( written in Forth ) for the bubble, laser and a few daisy wheel. Things like underline or pitch are in the code. This was all done in '85 or earlier. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 12 21:16:19 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 21:16:19 -0500 Subject: telegrams then and now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B964C23-3D1D-466F-AB52-83840AF297BA@bellsouth.net> Wow... that is expensive. Email, anyone? On Apr 12, 2010, at 6:42 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I just discovered that Western Union's old telegram service isn't really dead -- just sold to an outfit called "iTelegram". Never having really looked at telegram services until now, I was wondering if anyone had any information on what a same-day telegram cost way back when. Nowadays, iTelegram does it for $45 + 88 cents a word. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 12 22:57:36 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:57:36 -0700 Subject: telegrams then and now In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:42 PM -0700 4/12/10, David Griffith wrote: >I just discovered that Western Union's old telegram service isn't >really dead -- just sold to an outfit called "iTelegram". Never >having really looked at telegram services until now, I was wondering >if anyone had any information on what a same-day telegram cost way >back when. Nowadays, iTelegram does it for $45 + 88 cents a word. According to a book I have that lists stuff like that prices were roughly in the following range. 1890's 12 words = 12 cents each additional word = 1 cent International per word $1 1920's 12 words = 25 cents each additional word = 2 cents International per word $1.25 Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Apr 12 23:14:02 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 06:14:02 +0200 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: References: <4BC260A1.9080402@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20100413041402.GA28419@Update.UU.SE> > > Why? It's mechaniclaly centered by the spindle. And I don't think the > plastic pack casing would do much if the disk did decide to break up, so > not having the casing is not much of a hazard. > I would be more conserned with getting my long hair caught in the disk. Just a few days ago I got a few hair strands nibbled of by the fan of an RA90 disk :) Judging from Philips other videos, this might be an issue for him as well :) /Pontus From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 12 23:15:28 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 06:15:28 +0200 Subject: RK05 servo adjustment fun In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC3EFE0.1040002@hachti.de> Hi Tony, On 12.04.2010 22:21, Tony Duell wrote: >> I had a lot of trouble finding out the >> servo system's weakest >> part.... Now I managed the drive to run reliable and to be able to >> retract the heads properly (seems >> to be not so uncommon problem!). > > Plkease don't keep us in suspense :-). What is this common problem? I'm not 100% sure but what I found out is the following two things. 1. The RK05F I've been dealing with shows strange behavior on the sin and cos signals: They behave as if there's a low pass somewhere in the path. But there's no capacitor. And I don't think that there's a broken trace on the servo board (G938-YA, -YA is for RK05F with some resistor values different). So when you adjust the amplitude to 10V peak to peak, you get very small amplitudes at higher speed. The oscilloscope images in the manual show the same behavior - but only very weak. I can imagine that it has something to do with the photo diodes in the transducer aging. This problem lead to my drive overshooting on long seeks. No real overshooting: When I monitored the velocity feedback signal, everything looked good. The carriage didn't really overshoot and also reached slow motion as planned before stopping. And still it went to far. The problem seemed to be that with the low sin and cos amplitudes it missed some pulses and counted erroneously while traveling at high velocity. What I have done is deliberately turn up the sin and cos gain potentiometers. Adjusted them to approx 16V peak to peak instead of the recommended 10V. That allowed me to turn up speed without getting seek problems. But it's still not completely good: I could not go faster than about 90ms full stroke time. But the official timing is 70ms for the RK05F. But it seems to work reliable at the moment. 2. At some drives you encounter the problem that the heads won't be properly retracted. That's a bad problem. When you look at it, you get the impression that something is too weak to pull the heads up the unloading ramp. First idea would be to turn up the power amplifier gain to solve the problem. Indeed the problem shows up when you turn down the amplifier gain. But just turning up the amplifier gain seems to be useless in most cases. I now thing that the problem is NO lack of force. Put your drive's heads somewhere onto the disk. Then hold the carriage while setting the drive to unload. You will realize that the slow motion retract is done stepwise and with good force. If you turn off the power amp and unload the heads by hand you will see that the force needed to manually unload is smaller than the slow motion drive delivers. So that should not be the problem. It is something with the servo control. There seems to be a critical point when the outer limit signal goes high. If you push the head just a little little bit further - it will go on retracting to the end! So there seems to be one critical position. The servo electronics have to be convinced to step over it when unloading. What helped me: Velocity amplitude. While dealing with my main problem I realized that there's a much stronger relationship between the velocity amplitude adjustment and the head unloading problem. There seems to be some kind of threshold somewhere in the circuit. If you're below that, it won't unload. If you're over, it unloads. and it looks like it either works or not. So this is how I got that particular drive working. I just fixed the next drive, a RK05 without J or F. But that had only a broken Zener diode on the servo board... Here's my recommendation for drive adjustment (read the manual first to know how it should be done): 1. Adjust everything like explained in the manual. 2. If you encounter seek overshoots at correctly adjusted velocity: Increase sin and cos amplitude to 16V p-p if they break in too much while moving. 3. If you still have overshoots, probably less than before, decrease the velocity amplitude. This is the point where you start running your drive below specified speed. Try to lower the speed as little as possible. 4. If you now have a problem with head unloading, dig into the sin and cos amplitude problem if it exists. 5. Adjust the power amplifier gain -- if you like. That's the least important adjustment in the whole machine. Conclusion: * Too low velocity amplitude -> No head unloading * Too high velocity amplitude -> Overshooting due to count errors (NOT because of going beyond mechanical specs!) * Sin and Cos amplitude too low -> probably impossible to find an adjustment where heads unload properly and drive works fine. I have good reason to believe that the transducer speed is the limiting factor for seek speed: The velocity gain adjustment adjusts the velocity *command* to the closed loop servo system. So it also determines the maximum head travel speed (35ips says the manual). The servo system doesn't seem to even get near to its mechanical abilities. So the only explanation for the limitation I find is the slow transducer system. Ugly! The fixed regulated travel speed also implies that the amplifier gain has only very weak effects on the seek time: If you watch the full stroke waveform you'll see that most of the time the heads are on full velocity or in controlled slowdown. What you can alter by amplifier power is only the raise time in the beginning. The normal value is 14ms for the heads to go to full speed. 14ms of 90ms which you can shorten or prolong a little. That's all. The drive I'm just bringing up doesn't show sin and cos amplitude problems. It just doesn't show any problems yet. I'll see if I can adjust the speed up to the mechanical limits of the servo system. Up to the point where it it is near real overshooting. I'll post the max speed I could go at while still passing the drive control test :-) I would like to get some feedback of other people dealing with RK05 drives. I'm especially interested in other opinions concerning my sin and cos amplitude problem. Sorry for the chaotic explanations but as things are circular dependent I didn't know where to begin :-) Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 12 23:16:21 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 06:16:21 +0200 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: <20100413041402.GA28419@Update.UU.SE> References: <4BC260A1.9080402@bitsavers.org> <20100413041402.GA28419@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4BC3F015.2040105@hachti.de> > I would be more conserned with getting my long hair caught in the disk. > Just a few days ago I got a few hair strands nibbled of by the fan of an > RA90 disk :) > > Judging from Philips other videos, this might be an issue for him as > well :) Hehe :-) No, no! I cut my hair over a year ago. I look civilized again - boring... :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 16:03:50 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 17:03:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> At initial power-up, a 10-ohm 5W resistor near the power connector let out >> a puff of smoke (the drive was in the process of spinning up). I killed >> power and started checking components carefully. There were no ominous >> readings across the 5V logic power rails and I traced things out enough to >> determine that this resistor was between the +24V power input and whatever >> lies downstream (probably motor servo). > > It would be worth knowing what that resistor feeds. The obvious things to > need the 24V rail are the spindle motor and positioner (which could be a > stepper nmotor in an old/small drive like this, or it might be a voice > coil). I would also suspect that the 24V line is regualted down to 12V > for some of the analogue circuitry. I traced things a bit further. The 24V line from the power connector runs directly to the NO contact of a relay. The leg that runs through the scorched resistor ends up at a TO220 transister. I'll try to get more detail on its downstream side. I'm wondering if the resistor might be there to limit inrush current? Maybe the relay closes at servo lock and feeds power directly to the driver transistors at that point? >> The platters move freely, so the motor certainly wasn't bound up. When I >> checked power supply voltages (it's an analog supply), I discovered that >> the +24V rail was delivering +44V (!) and the -12V rail was -15V. The 5V >> rail was right on spec. > > Ouch. It's possible there's some kind of overvoltage protection > downstream of that resistor (like a fat zneer diode) which has shorted. > Or maybe somthign took a dislike to the high votlage. I haven't been able to find a low-resistance path - it's one of the first things I checked for. Also, nothing else on the board is getting even slightly warm. That's more fuel for this being a startup mode? > Or perhaps there is a real fault. Since it spins up, I guess the spindle > motor is OK. Can you diconnect the positioner actuator and see if the > current drops then? If I can figure out which pins are which. The motor and positioner leads are in the same harness with a common multipin connector. > Also, find some of the analouge chips in the read amplifier circuit and > measure their supply voltages. They should almost certainly be > symmetrical about ground. If the +ve voltage is low or missing, trace it > back to where it comes from (maybe a 3 terminal regulator like a 7812) Will try this. >> For a quick reality check, I plugged the supply into my bench variac and >> adjusted input voltage to yield +24V at the motor supply. Both other >> rails were within spec at this point. >> >> When I tried again to spin the drive up at the correct voltage, the series >> resistor became extremely hot although, again, the drive was on its way to >> full rotational speed at the time. I measured 20V across the 10-ohm >> resistor, which calculates to 2A and a dissipation of 10W. The latter > > Am I missing something? 2A and 20V is a power dissipation of 40W. Slip of the fingers: It's 10V, not 20. At 40W, that poor resistor would have gone up in a ball of fire :-) > Firstly, fix the PSU. I would be much happier knowing that that was > nothign to do with the problem. I have the power Darlington on order (shorted). > Measure the current drawn from the 24V line (I susepct it's rather more > than the 2A measured through that resistor, and that some parts fo the > drive are not suplied via it) > > Remove the reissotr and power up. Does the spindle run? Can you find > which parts of the drive are now lacking a +ve supply line? That will be my next move - I'm betting it won't spin up. >> One thought that occured to me is that the +24V rail is probably powering >> the voice-coil positioner in addition to the motor. I felt around >> extensively, and none of the power devices involved with head motion or >> servo is excessively warm. None of them appear shorted or open. > > If you know it's a voice coil, try measuring the voltage across the voice > coil. If ti's being driven hard, it will draw a high current from the > supply (after all the coil has a pretty low DC resistance). Maybe the > heads have stuck so the thing is not managing to move the heads to find > the servo data (but it's still trying). Maybe there's something wrong > with the driver circuitry, but not the output stage. The heads are not stuck. If I tip the drive, I can watch them slide across the platter from their own weight. Should have mentioned before that this thing has a translucent plastic top :-). Thanks very much for your suggestions, Tony. Steve -- From mailinglists at lenerz.org Mon Apr 12 16:04:21 2010 From: mailinglists at lenerz.org (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:04:21 +0200 Subject: WTB: SGI Professional IRIS CPU / Help Needed Message-ID: <1318298185.20100412230421@lenerz.org> Hi there, I'm owner of a Professional IRIS 4D/50G made by Silicon Graphics some time around 1987. The machine has apparently some kind of trouble related to the CPU board. I'll include some details further below, I'm open to any good idea. Because of that problem I'm in search for a suitable CPU board. The failing board is a IP4 CPU board (part nr. 030-0121-001 Rev A). I presume that any kind of CPU board from a Professional IRIS line machine would help (mainly IP4 and IP4.5). Please drop me a note if you have a spare or can point me in a promising direction. As promised some details. The machine used to work fine once I had set it up quite a while ago. Recently it refused to boot and upon inspection I got the following error: ---- snip ---- EXCEPTION: Exception pc: 0xbfc108a0 Cause register: 0x30001008 Status register: 0x80000 Bad Vaddress: 0xc0000000 Error Addr register: 0x17b40 Local I/O interrupt register: 0xff <> Parity error register: 0x0 Registers (in hex): arg: c98cf600 ffffffff 15180 0 tmp: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 sve: a0017b93 bfc268c8 bfc268ca 1 54 0 1 800 t8 ff00 t9 502e8000 at 1 v0 c0000000 v1 f65da k1 bfc04234 gp 0 fp bfc04bd0 sp a0017b64 ra bfc10744 exit(-1) called ---- snip ---- This happens just after POST (I think) when the machine is either about to start IRIX or to show the PROM menu. Of course nothing further happens except that the error is repeated without end. I did strip the machine down to a bare minimum of boards (IP4 and Ethernet) and I also swapped the memory sticks. The only things I could reasonably pull in a last attempt would be the VME Ethernet board and the system disk. Regards, Gerhard -- http://www,sgistuff.net/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 21:01:07 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Has anyone on the list seen or work with one of these? I received a >> Morrow M-20 8-inch hard disk along with my N* Horizon and found the >> Memorex 102 disk mechanism inside (what a beast!). >> >> At initial power-up, a 10-ohm 5W resistor near the power connector let out >> a puff of smoke (the drive was in the process of spinning up). I killed >> power and started checking components carefully. There were no ominous >> readings across the 5V logic power rails and I traced things out enough to >> determine that this resistor was between the +24V power input and whatever >> lies downstream (probably motor servo). > > It would be worth knowing what that resistor feeds. The obvious things to > need the 24V rail are the spindle motor and positioner (which could be a > stepper nmotor in an old/small drive like this, or it might be a voice > coil). I would also suspect that the 24V line is regualted down to 12V > for some of the analogue circuitry. The drive is not particularly small, BTW. This is a beast of an 8" drive mechanism with five platters and a voice-coil positioner. I removed the resistor and it does not try to spin. Traced things out as best I could (it's a three-layer board with limited visibility to the interior plane). The +24V input runs directly and almost solely to the armature of one SPDT relay contact set. The NO position goes directly to the motor / armature connector and the NC position goes nowhere. This gives some support to my theory that the resistor and associated circuitry is there to limit inrush current. I think this relay is supposed to pull in rather quickly and feed power directly to the motor. The downstream leg of the 10-ohm power resistor goes to a 2SD768 power device and I'm having a lot of trouble following it from there. I think your guess about a regulator for the 12V circuitry is probably correct. Steve -- From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 13 01:32:09 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:32:09 -0500 Subject: WTB: SGI Professional IRIS CPU / Help Needed In-Reply-To: <1318298185.20100412230421@lenerz.org> References: <1318298185.20100412230421@lenerz.org> Message-ID: unseat and re-seat the DIMM modules? > Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:04:21 +0200 > From: mailinglists at lenerz.org > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: WTB: SGI Professional IRIS CPU / Help Needed > > Hi there, > > I'm owner of a Professional IRIS 4D/50G made by Silicon Graphics some > time around 1987. The machine has apparently some kind of trouble > related to the CPU board. I'll include some details further below, I'm > open to any good idea. > > > Because of that problem I'm in search for a suitable CPU board. The > failing board is a IP4 CPU board (part nr. 030-0121-001 Rev A). I > presume that any kind of CPU board from a Professional IRIS line > machine would help (mainly IP4 and IP4.5). > > > > Please drop me a note if you have a spare or can point me in a > promising direction. > > > > As promised some details. The machine used to work fine once I had set > it up quite a while ago. Recently it refused to boot and upon > inspection I got the following error: > > ---- snip ---- > EXCEPTION: > Exception pc: 0xbfc108a0 > Cause register: 0x30001008 > Status register: 0x80000 > Bad Vaddress: 0xc0000000 > Error Addr register: 0x17b40 > Local I/O interrupt register: 0xff <> > Parity error register: 0x0 > Registers (in hex): > arg: c98cf600 ffffffff 15180 0 > tmp: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 > sve: a0017b93 bfc268c8 bfc268ca 1 54 0 1 800 > t8 ff00 t9 502e8000 at 1 v0 c0000000 v1 f65da k1 bfc04234 > gp 0 fp bfc04bd0 sp a0017b64 ra bfc10744 > exit(-1) called > ---- snip ---- > > This happens just after POST (I think) when the machine is either > about to start IRIX or to show the PROM menu. Of course nothing > further happens except that the error is repeated without end. > > I did strip the machine down to a bare minimum of boards (IP4 and > Ethernet) and I also swapped the memory sticks. The only things I > could reasonably pull in a last attempt would be the VME Ethernet > board and the system disk. > > > Regards, > > Gerhard > > -- > http://www,sgistuff.net/ > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 13 03:32:58 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 01:32:58 -0700 Subject: New old products :) Message-ID: I?ve gotten back into my Atari systems again and since I had a couple Indus GT drives, I found a schematic for the RAM upgrade board for the drives, and had PCB?s made :) my first professionally produced PCB?s in 20+ years. I?m quite pleased since it was a first effort with new software when I hadn?t touched EDA software in 20 years or so. Lessons learned were: Increase PAD size :) these are solderable, but are just a touch too small by the software default. Validate that pin one indicators REALLY render out to the gerbers. I have to refer back to my PCB design for pin one since it didn?t render. Quadruple check that all wires and nets are present. I discovered that a trace between 2 pins on the connector(s) disappeared on me at some point during editing, it is entirely possible I deleted it like an ID10T. So for this run of boards, wire-wrap wire will be my friend to jumper the 2 pins at the PCB. From ats at offog.org Tue Apr 13 04:37:29 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:37:29 +0100 Subject: telegrams then and now In-Reply-To: (David Griffith's message of "Mon, 12 Apr 2010 16:42:08 -0700 (PDT)") References: Message-ID: David Griffith writes: > I was wondering if anyone had any information on what a same-day > telegram cost way back when. http://distantwriting.co.uk/ may be of interest. In 1870, when sending a letter anywhere in the UK cost 1d (roughly 30p today, based on measuringworth.com's RPI calculator), sending a 20-word telegram at the biggest UK telegraph companies' standard rates cost 6d (?1.78) within London, 1s 0d (?3.57) within 100 miles, 1s 6d (?5.35) within 200 miles, and 2s 0d (?7.13) beyond 200 miles. Cheaper bulk rates were available for frequent users. Delivery was typically much faster than just the same day; the author gives the example of a farmer telegraphing his wife to tell her that the weather was poor and she shouldn't bother coming to the market. -- Adam Sampson From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 07:05:41 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:05:41 -0300 Subject: New old products :) References: Message-ID: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> >Lessons learned were: >Increase PAD size :) these are solderable, but are just a touch too small >by the software default. I'd ask you which software, but it is probably eagle with its too-small-to-solder pads ;) >Quadruple check that all wires and nets are present. I discovered that a >trace between 2 pins on the connector(s) disappeared on me at some point >during editing, it is entirely possible I deleted it like an ID10T. So for >this run of boards, wire-wrap wire will be my friend to jumper the 2 pins >at >the PCB. Next time, use kicad, diptrace or something useful. Eagle sux. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 13 08:05:24 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:05:24 -0400 Subject: Infoworlds (1983-1985) In-Reply-To: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4BC46C14.6090606@atarimuseum.com> Anyone have Infoworlds from 1983 through 1985 they are looking to sell ? Curt From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 08:24:34 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:24:34 +0100 Subject: chips vs chad In-Reply-To: <4BBF6D0E.2020409@garlic.com> References: <373D743E-5C6E-4781-9F09-29D29EC81CBF@microspot.co.uk> <4BBAF41C.32058.12F872@cclist.sydex.com> <4BBB7D11.4010608@garlic.com> <4BBCF317.30301@garlic.com> <20100408123331.V67700@shell.lmi.net> <4BBF6D0E.2020409@garlic.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 7:08 PM, jd wrote: > On 04/08/2010 12:38 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 7 Apr 2010, jd wrote: >>> Everyone around me at the time called it chaff. Even the native IBMers >>> who used paper tape every single day. Those were the days when IBM >>> employee payroll statements were still printed on punched cards. Even >>> the hams called it that. At least those I knew. >>> Maybe Chad objected. >> >> . . . so they hung him? > > And then lynched him in 2000? That's probably fine, as long as they didn't bend, spindle or mutilate him first. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 09:00:48 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:00:48 -0400 Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On 4/13/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>Lessons learned were: >>Increase PAD size :) these are solderable, but are just a touch too small >>by the software default. > > I'd ask you which software, but it is probably eagle with its > too-small-to-solder pads ;) I've not had a problem with *most* of the footprints in Eagle (OTOH, I do solder 805-sized parts without magnification), but occasionally, there's a part that is less than ideal - in particular, there's a 40-pin DIP footprint with big, huge pads (right out of the 1970s, like the size you get from rub-off transfers) but the associated drill holes are barely big enough to admit a machined pin. I've seen that footprint in more than one hobbyist-made board, so it must be in a default library somewhere. Also, the footprint for the provided 2.1mm DC power jack assumes you have really, really tiny pins on your jack. I even went to the trouble to purchase the jack named in the parts library and it *still* didn't fit - had to ream out all the holes on the final board. For through-hole resistors and caps, for 14 and 16-pin DIPs, momentary switches, etc., I've not had a hole or pad problem with Eagle. It's just a few parts, but when it happens, it is maddening. As for the "blue wire" problem - I happened to have made a mistake on my last board that I would have liked the ERC or DRC catch - I accidentally named two elements of the same bus the same (D7 twice, no D5). Because only one or two pins of that bus happened to go somewhere, it wasn't an obvious problem visually. Yes, I should have caught it while inspecting the design, but I didn't. Fortunately, I could change the firmware to work around the bug (or I could do a cut-and-jump). More fortunately, once the problem was identified, it took less than 5 min to fix it on both the schematic and the layout. I remember such problems back in the day with OrCAD and PADS and how much one had to rip-up to fix layout mistakes. I'm happy things are much easier to correct with modern tools. > Next time, use kicad, diptrace or something useful. Eagle sux. I'm not going to defend Eagle, but I'm unfamiliar with diptrace - what makes it better? I use Eagle because it works on any computer I'm likely to be sitting and and because there are lots of examples and user-contributed parts. I'm not opposed to switching tools, but I'd rather not switch tools just to spend all my time creating libraries for classic computer components. If another tool has better libraries and is easier to use, then I'm all for it. -ethan From trag at io.com Tue Apr 13 09:59:01 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:59:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 09:05:41 -0300 > From: "Alexandre Souza - Listas" > > Next time, use kicad, diptrace or something useful. Eagle sux. For Macintosh users Osmond PCB is very nice. I mention it only because Macintosh based PCB layout software is thin on the ground so Mac users might think there's nothing for their platform. The fellow who developed Osmond seems to be quite a guy. At least, during the years long (free) beta period he answered emailed questions about the software quickly, clearly and friendly, and fixed bugs. Jeff Walther From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 13 11:21:43 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:21:43 -0400 Subject: Infoworlds (1983-1985) In-Reply-To: <4BC46C14.6090606@atarimuseum.com> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC46C14.6090606@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4BC49A17.4040905@snarc.net> No, but the complete issues are on Google Books. I discovered that by accident. --------------------------------------------- > Anyone have Infoworlds from 1983 through 1985 they are looking to sell ? > > > Curt > > > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 11:49:42 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:49:42 -0300 Subject: New old products :) References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <242801cadb29$708532c0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> >> Next time, use kicad, diptrace or something useful. Eagle sux. > I'm not going to defend Eagle, but I'm unfamiliar with diptrace - what > makes it better? Ethan, it is a matter of using the tool, I could say wonders about diptrace, but I do believe nothing will be compared with you getting the tool and taking a look. > I use Eagle because it works on any computer I'm likely to be sitting > and and because there are lots of examples and user-contributed parts. > I'm not opposed to switching tools, but I'd rather not switch tools > just to spend all my time creating libraries for classic computer > components. If another tool has better libraries and is easier to > use, then I'm all for it. I use Altium Designer, but I admit it is too expensive for (legal) hobby use :o) I do believe in Diptrace. But KICAD is getting better and better everyday. More libraries and a very active development. Maybe you'll want to take a look at it :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 11:56:42 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:56:42 -0400 Subject: multiplatform EDA tools (was Re: New old products :) Message-ID: On 4/13/10, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> Next time, use kicad, diptrace or something useful. Eagle sux. >> I'm not going to defend Eagle, but I'm unfamiliar with diptrace - what >> makes it better? > > Ethan, it is a matter of using the tool, I could say wonders about > diptrace, but I do believe nothing will be compared with you getting the > tool and taking a look. I don't see a Linux or Mac version, so it's a non-starter. I'm not going to dork around with Wine to use an EDA tool; I'll just stick with tools that work natively. >> I use Eagle because it works on any computer I'm likely to be sitting... I stand by that - Eagle works on Macs, Linux boxes and Windows boxes. I don't have to worry about the platform in front of me - there's an Eagle for each one. > I do believe in Diptrace. But KICAD is getting better and better > everyday. More libraries and a very active development. Maybe you'll want to > take a look at it :) I've heard of KICAD, but the last time I looked at it, it didn't look polished enough for me to spend much time on it. Perhaps it's advanced enough for a second look. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 13 12:06:29 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:06:29 -0600 Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: <242801cadb29$708532c0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <242801cadb29$708532c0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <4BC4A495.5070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I do believe in Diptrace. But KICAD is getting better and better > everyday. More libraries and a very active development. Maybe you'll > want to take a look at it :) I have the older version of diptrace. I am not so happy with it. No PLCC sockets of any kind. No support for TUBES of any kind. All the new libraries have more surface mount junk. Manual routing is a pain. Auto routing does work no more than 3 chips for a two layer board. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 13 12:08:59 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:08:59 -0600 Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: <4BC4A495.5070405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <242801cadb29$708532c0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC4A495.5070405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BC4A52B.1000603@jetnet.ab.ca> Ben wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> I do believe in Diptrace. But KICAD is getting better and better >> everyday. More libraries and a very active development. Maybe you'll >> want to take a look at it :) > > I have the older version of diptrace. I am not so happy with it. > No PLCC sockets of any kind. No support for TUBES of any kind. > All the new libraries have more surface mount junk. Manual routing > is a pain. Auto routing does work no more than 3 chips for a two -----------------------------------^FOR > layer board. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 12:16:16 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:16:16 -0400 Subject: Cross-platform EDA tools (was Re: New old products :) Message-ID: On 4/13/10, Ben wrote: > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> I do believe in Diptrace.... > > I have the older version of diptrace. I am not so happy with it. > No PLCC sockets of any kind. No support for TUBES of any kind. > All the new libraries have more surface mount junk. Manual routing > is a pain. Auto routing does work no more than 3 chips for a two > layer board. Hmm... that would have killed my last project - a PLCC-44 89C52 (that we later swapped out for an ATmega8515 with no board changes required) and 5 ICs total ('541, 2x ULN2003, '14, MCU). Went fine with Eagle except for the holes for the power jack and my goof on the Port D bus. Autorouting worked for 75% of the project, and manual routing is not tricky. The first test program ever loaded into the board ran the first time (blink LEDs on two port bits). I'd call that a success. -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 13 12:26:33 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:26:33 -0500 Subject: multiplatform EDA tools (was Re: New old products :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC4A949.5010301@jbrain.com> They need a "status" or emoticon for "biting my virtual tongue" or similar. I was trying to stay out of this topic, but I failed. Truthfully, I think it's no longer possible to compare all of these tools in the same way. I've tried gEDA (gSchem + PCB), KiCAD, and EAGLE, and they do seem to fit different segments: gEDA seems to offer lots of automation options. Scripting it seems easiest of any of the options. The GUI is OK, but nothing special. KiCAD is more integrated, and truly open source EAGLE is more integrated yet, and not open source. I'll try DIPTrace as soon as possible. I don't think you can fault the EDA tool for library issues: * EAGLE has far more libraries than the other options, so it stands to reason more of it's parts will have issues, even though the ratio of bad footprints is the same as other options * In all of the options, there are warnings that the libraries are as-is. I agree EAGLE should have a RRC (Routing RC) button to check for unrouted airwires. But, turning off all layers except for airwires is an easy way to see them in the layout for now. The ubiquity and plethora of libraries for EAGLE is it's strongest benefit, whatever the issues with the tool. I searched in vain for some scripts that could minimize the gap by allowing me to import my EAGLE libraries and designs into KiCAD or gEDA, but could not find anything of use (I found one script for PCB, as I recall, but it bombed). Taking a page from the OO.org playbook, I think import functions would go a long way towards pushing some of us into the KiCAD/DIPTrace/gEDA arena. I also wish there was more pragmatism. I understand Open Source is a philosophy, but I wish people wouldn't try to indoctrinate me using that as the sole feature. Having people tell me I should use KiCAD or gEDA because they are open source is a non-starter for me. I use OOo because it is a good product, less bloated than Office, and I do agree with the philosophy, but I wouldn't use it just because it is OSS. I'll don the flame-retardant garments now, but understand I release all of my designs under GPL, because I believe OSS prevents vintage machine designs from being unusable when the manufacturer quits offering the solution. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 13 12:27:50 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:27:50 -0500 Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC4A996.4020703@jbrain.com> On 4/13/2010 3:32 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > I?ve gotten back into my Atari systems again and since I had a couple Indus > GT drives, I found a schematic for the RAM upgrade board for the drives, and > had PCB?s made :) my first professionally produced PCB?s in 20+ years. I?m > quite pleased since it was a first effort with new software when I hadn?t > touched EDA software in 20 years or so. > Can you share the schematic? It might be of use to CBM Indus owners. Jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 13 12:28:17 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:28:17 -0700 Subject: Board prototyping at home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Regardless of tool to create the gerber, one thing bothers me a little. I am happy making 2 sided boards but I'd really like to make plated through holes at home. Plating is a little bit science and a lot of knowledge. Most of us have bench supplies that could be used for plating. What we need is some of the know-how to get something working. What materials would I need? What current rate for specific area is practical? What do I paint in the holes to get the plating started? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 13 12:28:28 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:28:28 -0700 Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A23658C65324A318CF0B4CEE294B1E4@tegp4> > Message: 27 > Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:01:07 -0400 (EDT) > From: Steven Hirsch > Subject: Re: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Mon, 12 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> > >> Has anyone on the list seen or work with one of these? I received a > >> Morrow M-20 8-inch hard disk along with my N* Horizon and found the > >> Memorex 102 disk mechanism inside (what a beast!). > The drive is not particularly small, BTW. This is a beast of an 8" drive > mechanism with five platters and a voice-coil positioned. The Memorex 102 had four platters and a stepper motor. A 10 ohm resistor would limit the inrush to 2.4 Amps with zero spindle motor resistance. Given the 112 has an inrush of 4.5 Amps, this further suggests this is not a 102. I have a disassembled 101 in my garage if that would help and I can find it Tom From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 13 12:48:19 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:48:19 -0400 Subject: Infoworlds (1983-1985) In-Reply-To: <4BC49A17.4040905@snarc.net> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC46C14.6090606@atarimuseum.com> <4BC49A17.4040905@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4BC4AE63.7040101@atarimuseum.com> Yes, I know - but you can't print them out. On 4/13/2010 12:21 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > No, but the complete issues are on Google Books. I discovered that by > accident. > > > --------------------------------------------- >> Anyone have Infoworlds from 1983 through 1985 they are looking to sell ? >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> > From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 13:07:05 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:07:05 -0400 Subject: 40 yrs ago today, April 13, 1970, "Houston we've had a problem" by James A. Lovell Message-ID: <4BC4B2C9.6040202@comcast.net> 40 yrs ago today, April 13, 1970, "Houston we've had a problem" by James A. Lovell http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-13-1.html From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 13:13:53 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 15:13:53 -0300 Subject: Infoworlds (1983-1985) References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC46C14.6090606@atarimuseum.com><4BC49A17.4040905@snarc.net> <4BC4AE63.7040101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <24cc01cadb35$2fbbb1e0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> > Yes, I know - but you can't print them out. Eh..."you can" using "alternate methods". Google "dowloading google books" :o) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 13 13:33:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:33:18 -0700 Subject: Board prototyping at home In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4BC4567E.22840.D37201@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2010 at 10:28, dwight elvey wrote: > Plating is a little bit science and a lot of knowledge. Most of > us have bench supplies that could be used for plating. What > we need is some of the know-how to get something working. > What materials would I need? What current rate for specific > area is practical? What do I paint in the holes to get the plating > started? Dwight Commercial houses use a witches' brew of stannous chloride, followed by palladium, followed by electroless copper to get plated vias. Probably more than you'd want for casual use. Multicore used to offer a "Copperset" system; basically fine solder that's been copper-plated. Stick in into a via, flare the ends and heat to firmly solder. I've been toying with plating some solder and trying this. I think the Copperset system went defunct because of RoHS issues (Multicore is a UK company). Pulsar still offers copper rivets and there's discussion in their tech support forum about using winshield defogger repair ink to make "plated through, sort of" vias. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 13:18:51 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 15:18:51 -0300 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> <201004111834.o3BIYOfI011232@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <251201cadb38$07b38ee0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> > Can't speak to reliability. You might want to consider the relative > size of the scanned PDF docs that are common versus the size of the mini > cds. The rectangular ones can be as small as 50 MB or less. I have old CD-Rs as old as 1996 vintage. This is an old Gold + green TDK CD-R. But do new CDs has the same reliability record??? This is an excellent question - how to preserve data, and a recurrent one on this list :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 13 13:43:39 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:43:39 -0600 Subject: 40 yrs ago today, April 13, 1970, "Houston we've had a problem" by James A. Lovell In-Reply-To: <4BC4B2C9.6040202@comcast.net> References: <4BC4B2C9.6040202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BC4BB5B.1040301@jetnet.ab.ca> Umm I thought we got them down by now. Wow time is flying. I am printing off 'OS 8 Handbook' and that is dated (c) 1974. DEC is long gone,but the hardware is still running. ( Well ok - the SBC 6120 clone is here). I am still amazed of the advanced software for the PDP-8 - like device drivers for the OS. Ben. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 13:45:51 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:45:51 -0500 Subject: Infoworlds (1983-1985) In-Reply-To: <4BC49A17.4040905@snarc.net> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC46C14.6090606@atarimuseum.com> <4BC49A17.4040905@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > No, but the complete issues are on Google Books. ?I discovered that by > accident. I ran across that, too, but they only have them going back to 1987. *Yet* - googling for a certain computer a while back turned up a ~1982 issue that does not appear in the index. Anyone figured out where those are hiding? From tommie at fox.se Tue Apr 13 13:50:06 2010 From: tommie at fox.se (Tommie Mademark) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:50:06 +0200 Subject: 128k Plessey Data General Nova 3 Memory Board Message-ID: Hello, I have a 128k Plessey Data General Nova 3 Memory Board exhibiting errors. If you have the schematics for this board, a copy would be much appreciated. Regards, Tommie Mademark My Data General blog http://www.foxdata.com/blog/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 13 14:19:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:19:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 12, 10 10:01:07 pm Message-ID: > I removed the resistor and it does not try to spin. Traced things out as > best I could (it's a three-layer board with limited visibility to the > interior plane). The +24V input runs directly and almost solely to the > armature of one SPDT relay contact set. The NO position goes directly to > the motor / armature connector and the NC position goes nowhere. This > gives some support to my theory that the resistor and associated circuitry > is there to limit inrush current. I think this relay is supposed to pull > in rather quickly and feed power directly to the motor. > > The downstream leg of the 10-ohm power resistor goes to a 2SD768 power > device and I'm having a lot of trouble following it from there. I think > your guess about a regulator for the 12V circuitry is probably correct. THis does sound very like the schematic that I was looking at in the 112 manual. The relay there eneables the spindle motor (and maybe the positioner drivers too), the resistor feeds a power transistor that's the pass tranasitor for the 12V regualtor. The fact that the drive fails totally if the resistor is removed would seem to indicate that the otuput of that 12V regulator is somewhat present. I have suggested in my least message that iy would eb worth measuring the votlages on the leads of that transistor. What if the transistor was shorted? The regualtor would then become a simple resistor + zner circuit. The reissotr would ahve to drop 10 or 12V, and woul;d get hot and bothered!. The zener diode wouldn't like it much either (are you sure _nothing_ else is getting hot?). Anyway, it's worth checking this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 13 14:20:30 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:20:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: <20100413041402.GA28419@Update.UU.SE> from "Pontus Pihlgren" at Apr 13, 10 06:14:02 am Message-ID: > I would be more conserned with getting my long hair caught in the disk. Which would certainly cause a headcrash... (Note I didn't say which head would crash and into what ;-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 13 14:11:17 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:11:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 12, 10 05:03:50 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 12 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> At initial power-up, a 10-ohm 5W resistor near the power connector let out > >> a puff of smoke (the drive was in the process of spinning up). I killed > >> power and started checking components carefully. There were no ominous > >> readings across the 5V logic power rails and I traced things out enough to > >> determine that this resistor was between the +24V power input and whatever > >> lies downstream (probably motor servo). > > > > It would be worth knowing what that resistor feeds. The obvious things to > > need the 24V rail are the spindle motor and positioner (which could be a > > stepper nmotor in an old/small drive like this, or it might be a voice > > coil). I would also suspect that the 24V line is regualted down to 12V > > for some of the analogue circuitry. > > I traced things a bit further. The 24V line from the power connector runs > directly to the NO contact of a relay. The leg that runs through the > scorched resistor ends up at a TO220 transister. I'll try to get more > detail on its downstream side. > > I'm wondering if the resistor might be there to limit inrush current? > Maybe the relay closes at servo lock and feeds power directly to the > driver transistors at that point? I've had a look at the Memorex 112 manual on Bitsavers. If your drive is similar, you might bave big problems. The relay contact is part of a 4-pole relay used to turn on the spindle motor (the other 3 poles connect braking resistors ot the windings) The 10 Ohm (5W) resistor is the fred to the collector of a power transistor, whcih is the pass transistor for a simple 12V regulator. The emitter of that transistor is the output of the 12V regualtor and feeds a lot of analuge circuitry. My guess is that the transsitor is OK (but it would be worth checking) and that you have something downstream of it that is drawing exceessive current. It might be a shorted decoupling capacitor, it might be an IC. And to make things worse there seem to be some custom analogue ICs in this drive. First test that I would do is to measure the voltages (wrt ground) on the 3 leads of that transsitor. > The heads are not stuck. If I tip the drive, I can watch them slide > across the platter from their own weight. Should have mentioned before > that this thing has a translucent plastic top :-). > RIght..The Model 112 is a stapepr motor positioned, BTW. That is what I'd expect in a low capacity, but large platter drive like this. The trackls would be suufficiently wide that a stepper motor would be fine. You need a voice coil positioner taking a servo signal from the disk if you have a high tranck density, of course. -tony From mailinglists at lenerz.org Tue Apr 13 14:09:25 2010 From: mailinglists at lenerz.org (Gerhard Lenerz) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:09:25 +0200 Subject: WTB: SGI Professional IRIS CPU / Help Needed In-Reply-To: References: <1318298185.20100412230421@lenerz.org> Message-ID: <861932510.20100413210925@lenerz.org> > unseat and re-seat the DIMM modules? Tried that, unfortunately the error didn't change at all. I did go back to a minimum setup. And I also did use different sets of memory modules. Gerhard -- http://www.sgistuff.net/ From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Tue Apr 13 02:19:36 2010 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 00:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp-11/35 on Ebay UK Message-ID: <668844.38284.qm@web114204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi folks, Looks like cctech's missed this one, but there's still several hours to go! There's a pdp-11/35 being auctioned on Ebay uk: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DEC-PDP-11-35-with-EIS-and-Core-Memory-PDP-11-PDP11_W0QQitemZ130380319955QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_VintageComputing_RL?hash=item1e5b45ccd3 It's in Halifax; a mere 50Km from where I live! Unfortunately, I can't afford it :-( But I thought you might like to see what's going down oop North ;-) -cheers from Julz @P From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 06:40:42 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 07:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Apr 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: >> Has anyone on the list seen or work with one of these? I received a >> Morrow M-20 8-inch hard disk along with my N* Horizon and found the >> Memorex 102 disk mechanism inside (what a beast!). >> > I worked on the 101/102 > > See > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/memorex/disc/112-114.60-00_Memorex112_Fujitsu23 > 01_jan83.pdf for the Memorex 112 Technical Manual; the 112 is a later > version of the 102 and they probably have a lot in common. Paragraph 1.2.2 > shows the typically current wave forms which should be the same. Wow, thanks! )^&)^*(&^% Google turned up zip in over an hour of searching on every permutation of words I could think of... > According to the spec the start up current is 6A peak and 1.6A running. So > when running yr 10 ohm is only 1/4 watt and should be cool. The peak power > of less than 3.6 watts should only last a very short time as the motor comes > up to speed and it's back EMF lowers the current to the running current of > well under 1.6A (the running current supplies both the spindle motor and the > stepper motor). Again the figure shows a spindle motor start up current of > about 4.5A and the peak 6A occurs during stepping. > > Good luck. Thanks, I think I'll need it. > BTW, if you have an 102 documents I would really like a copy, personally or > at bitsavers. Don't I wish :-). I haven't given up yet and will keep my eyes open. Again, much appreciated! Steve -- From lee_courtney at acm.org Tue Apr 13 12:48:58 2010 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/03 System FS or Trade In-Reply-To: <4BC4A52B.1000603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <242801cadb29$708532c0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC4A495.5070405@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BC4A52B.1000603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <156587.97077.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a clean working PDP-11/03 with two RL01s I?d like to trade for a working paper tape reader/punch and interface for my 11/20, or failing that will sell for $500. CPU is in a nice OEM cabinet with attached work surface. Powers up, and I can read/write memory from a console. I have no media for the RL01s and haven?t attempted to boot any OS. Cards in the CPU include: M8043 DLVJ1-M Q 4-Line Asynchronous Interface (formerly DLV11-J) M8043 DLVJ1-M Q 4-Line Asynchronous Interface (formerly DLV11-J) M7940 DLV11 Q Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) M8013 RLV11 Q RL01 disk controller, 1 of 2 M8014 RLV11 Q RL01 bus controller, 2 of 2 M8044-DE MSV11-DD Q 32-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM KM7270 KD11-HA Q LSI-11/2 CPU, 16-bit Both RL-01s (Model 70-12130) power up, but have no media. You can see pictures at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/49228694 at N06/ Local pick-up only from zipcode 94025. Lee Courtney lee_courtney at acm.org 650-704-3934 From Robert.Melville at forces.gc.ca Tue Apr 13 13:31:50 2010 From: Robert.Melville at forces.gc.ca (Robert.Melville at forces.gc.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 11:31:50 -0700 Subject: Has anyone ever heard of theProtec Microsystems PRO-83? Message-ID: <201004131831.o3DIVscv062949@billY.EZWIND.NET> I have a pro-83 with the power supply. You can have it for postage. The only thing wrong with it is one of the capacitors came off the board. Bob Melville 250 941-4651 After 4 pacific From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 13 14:48:26 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 15:48:26 -0400 Subject: Did someone have a hack for 8" or 5-1/4" drives using a Flash drive ? Message-ID: <4BC4CA8A.6060901@comcast.net> Did someone have a hack for 8" or 5-1/4" drives using a Flash drive ? I like to build one to troubleshoot floppy controllers without risking damage to the original drive. There's one from Germany for about $300 but it's too big for my wallet. http://www.ipcas.com/products/usb-floppy-emulator-fdd-to-udd.html I'm trying to fiddle with my google search terms but nothing points to a homebrew version yet. =Dan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 13 14:58:00 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:58:00 -0600 Subject: PDP11/03 System FS or Trade In-Reply-To: <156587.97077.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <242801cadb29$708532c0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC4A495.5070405@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BC4A52B.1000603@jetnet.ab.ca> <156587.97077.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BC4CCC8.60108@jetnet.ab.ca> Lee Courtney (ACM) wrote: > I have a clean working PDP-11/03 with two RL01s I?d like to trade for a working paper tape reader/punch and interface for my > 11/20, or failing that will sell for $500. CPU is in a nice OEM cabinet with > Local pick-up only from zipcode 94025. ARG!!!!! > Lee Courtney > lee_courtney at acm.org > 650-704-3934 I hope SOMEBODY gets a PDP 11 to hold and love. Ben. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 13 15:03:14 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 13:03:14 -0700 Subject: Board prototyping at home In-Reply-To: <4BC4567E.22840.D37201@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , , <4BC4567E.22840.D37201@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 13 Apr 2010 at 10:28, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Plating is a little bit science and a lot of knowledge. Most of > > us have bench supplies that could be used for plating. What > > we need is some of the know-how to get something working. > > What materials would I need? What current rate for specific > > area is practical? What do I paint in the holes to get the plating > > started? Dwight > > Commercial houses use a witches' brew of stannous chloride, followed > by palladium, followed by electroless copper to get plated vias. > Probably more than you'd want for casual use. > > Multicore used to offer a "Copperset" system; basically fine solder > that's been copper-plated. Stick in into a via, flare the ends and > heat to firmly solder. I've been toying with plating some solder and > trying this. I think the Copperset system went defunct because of > RoHS issues (Multicore is a UK company). > > Pulsar still offers copper rivets and there's discussion in their > tech support forum about using winshield defogger repair ink to make > "plated through, sort of" vias. > > --Chuck > Hi Rivets are usually to wide to use on IC pins with traces between. I wonder if a little of that window stuff would be a good substrait for plating. Another though would be to use an electroless silver plate first and the copper. One doesn't have to do exactly what the shops do. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From hachti at hachti.de Tue Apr 13 15:48:14 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:48:14 +0200 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC4D88E.7040608@hachti.de> On 13.04.2010 21:20, Tony Duell wrote: >> I would be more conserned with getting my long hair caught in the disk. > > Which would certainly cause a headcrash... (Note I didn't say which head > would crash and into what ;-)) I've been told by my local DEC field engineer that the heads don't get in trouble with big stuff i.e. everything you can see. That's just kicked off the disk - dangerous is the stuff that fits under the heads... Hair does not fit under the heads. Oh, that bad RK8E controller just confronts me with "Data break error" :-( Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 13 16:02:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:02:44 -0700 Subject: Board prototyping at home In-Reply-To: References: , <4BC4567E.22840.D37201@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BC47984.5913.15C3F4E@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2010 at 13:03, dwight elvey wrote: > Rivets are usually to wide to use on IC pins with traces between. I > wonder if a little of that window stuff would be a good substrait for > plating. Another though would be to use an electroless silver plate > first and the copper. > One doesn't have to do exactly what the shops do. The shops generally follow up the electroless copper (which really doesn't lay down much metal) with a full copper electroplate and a mask that's removed after plating. If you're doing a thousand boards, this is practical, but onesy-twosy would be a major pain. Some light on this subject is shed by the LPFK literature. You recall that these are the folks who make the rapid-prototyping desktop PCB milling machines. Clearly, they have an interest in making good vias on their boards. They offer a low-cost solution that essentially squeegees a conductive polymer into the vias. The downside is that you can't solder to it, nor use it as a component hole. The other two are the real deal--a 4 step process, with the final being electroplating. They also make a rivet system with some very tiny rivets indeed (EasyContac). But the cost will cause you to shudder--$475 for the basic kit and $0.10 per rivet. A few DIPs or PLCCs and commercial PCB house prices start to look pretty good. Best regards, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Apr 13 16:14:00 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: worn edge fingers Message-ID: I was examining some old Vectrex cartridges and I noticed on one that the gold on the edge fingers has worn down to the copper below. What's the proper way to rehab things like this? Wipe with some solder and blow off the excess with an air compressor? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 13 16:19:23 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:19:23 -0400 Subject: Infoworlds (1983-1985) In-Reply-To: <4BC4AE63.7040101@atarimuseum.com> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC46C14.6090606@atarimuseum.com> <4BC49A17.4040905@snarc.net> <4BC4AE63.7040101@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4BC4DFDB.7000907@snarc.net> I printed out some articles by taking screen shots of full-page views. --------------------------------------------- > Yes, I know - but you can't print them out. > > > On 4/13/2010 12:21 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> No, but the complete issues are on Google Books. I discovered that >> by accident. >> >> >> --------------------------------------------- >>> Anyone have Infoworlds from 1983 through 1985 they are looking to >>> sell ? >>> >>> >>> Curt From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 13 16:51:28 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 14:51:28 -0700 Subject: worn edge fingers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC484F0.27407.188E02C@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2010 at 14:14, David Griffith wrote: > > I was examining some old Vectrex cartridges and I noticed on one that > the gold on the edge fingers has worn down to the copper below. > What's the proper way to rehab things like this? Wipe with some > solder and blow off the excess with an air compressor? Most gold is plated over a nickel flash over copper (pure gold doesn't adhere well to copper for some reason). If I wanted to be near-original, I'd plate the edge contacts with electroless nickel, then perhaps finish up with a gold brush plate. Not cheap if you don't have a lot to do. Alternatively, consider electroless tin plate, such as Tinnit. Inexpensive and should be pretty durable. --Chuck From fjgjr1 at aol.com Tue Apr 13 18:57:52 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:57:52 -0400 Subject: Did someone have a hack for 8" or 5-1/4" drives using a Flash drive ? In-Reply-To: <4BC4CA8A.6060901@comcast.net> References: <4BC4CA8A.6060901@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8CCA97C43AE04EF-34D8-62D4@webmail-d092.sysops.aol.com> Dan, Did you check out "deviceside?" Deviceside contact info ? Email: DEVICESIDE at DEVICESIDE.COM WWW. WWW.DEVICESIDE.COM Adam Goldman Device Side Data 612 Epping Rd. Palos Verdes, CA 90274 Some discussion on WWW.VINTAGE-COMPUTER.COM - do a search and Google too of course. Breifly - floppy to USB port then USB port to Flash drive + come conversion software, so some files can be used on modern computers. Or did I miss something here ? German system just seems to copy files to more modern comuputers with no conversions - did not see anything else on their site. Check Good luck ! Frank -----Original Message----- From: Dan Roganti To: CCTALK Sent: Tue, Apr 13, 2010 3:48 pm Subject: Did someone have a hack for 8" or 5-1/4" drives using a Flash drive ? Did someone have a hack for 8" or 5-1/4" drives using a Flash drive ? I like to build one to troubleshoot floppy controllers without risking damage to the original drive. There's one from Germany for about $300 but it's too big for my wallet. http://www.ipcas.com/products/usb-floppy-emulator-fdd-to-udd.html I'm trying to fiddle with my google search terms but nothing points to a homebrew version yet. =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 13 19:26:24 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:26:24 -0700 Subject: Did someone have a hack for 8" or 5-1/4" drives using a Flash drive ? In-Reply-To: <8CCA97C43AE04EF-34D8-62D4@webmail-d092.sysops.aol.com> References: <4BC4CA8A.6060901@comcast.net>, <8CCA97C43AE04EF-34D8-62D4@webmail-d092.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4BC4A940.21484.216B725@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Apr 2010 at 19:57, fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: > Deviceside contact info - > > Email: DEVICESIDE at DEVICESIDE.COM > WWW. WWW.DEVICESIDE.COM I think you missed the point, Frank. I think he has something like: http://www.plrelectronics.com/floppy_to_usb.php http://www.datastorage.fr/index.php?r=rub3_2_4.php http://members.fortunecity.it/blackvisionit/emufdd_it.htm http://www.rothfus.com/SVD/index.php http://embroiderydrive.com/ http://www.datexdsm.com/emulator/DTX200photo.html http://qhsfd.com/product.asp (Chinese) http://www.ipcas.com/products/usb-floppy-emulator-fdd-to-udd.html http://www.rioc.us/ufr-usb-floppy-replacement.php And for the DIY-er, there's http://www.torlus.com/floppy/ By no means, exhaustive, but something to get you going. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 13 21:50:58 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:50:58 -0700 Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: On 4/13/10 5:05 AM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" wrote: >> Lessons learned were: >> Increase PAD size :) these are solderable, but are just a touch too small >> by the software default. > > I'd ask you which software, but it is probably eagle with its > too-small-to-solder pads ;) > >> Quadruple check that all wires and nets are present. I discovered that a >> trace between 2 pins on the connector(s) disappeared on me at some point >> during editing, it is entirely possible I deleted it like an ID10T. So for >> this run of boards, wire-wrap wire will be my friend to jumper the 2 pins >> at >> the PCB. > > Next time, use kicad, diptrace or something useful. Eagle sux. > > Nope, it was KiCAD. I'm running the Windows version in a VM as the MacOSX version just plain sux ? From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Apr 13 21:53:13 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 19:53:13 -0700 Subject: multiplatform EDA tools (was Re: New old products :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/13/10 9:56 AM, "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > > I've heard of KICAD, but the last time I looked at it, it didn't look > polished enough for me to spend much time on it. Perhaps it's > advanced enough for a second look. > > -ethan > I believe the Linux versino of KiCAD works ok, the MacOSX version is a steaming pile o fewmets though :( From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 13 23:32:52 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:32:52 -0700 Subject: OT: Weller WTCPT owners Message-ID: <4BC4E304.16356.2F85ED8@cclist.sydex.com> A little tidbit for you owners of Weller WTCPT irons with TC201 handsets that take the EC234 heaters. If your old heater was made before 2002, be sure to also buy a new BA60 sleeve and nut. The newer EC234 is slightly wider and won't fit the old BA60. Just something I discovered to file away for a rainy day. Cheers, Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Apr 14 00:53:26 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 07:53:26 +0200 Subject: PDP11/03 System FS or Trade In-Reply-To: <156587.97077.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <242801cadb29$708532c0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC4A495.5070405@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BC4A52B.1000603@jetnet.ab.ca> <156587.97077.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20100414055326.GA12556@Update.UU.SE> > attached work surface. Powers up, and I can read/write memory from a console. I > have no media for the RL01s and haven???t attempted to boot any OS. I have a boatload of RL01 disk packs and would mind getting rid of some. There is a problem though. One of the packs probably contains GAMMA-11, which I need, and I don't know which one and have limited ability of finding it. But it can be done if someone wants disk packs badly. /P From james at machineroom.info Tue Apr 13 15:36:06 2010 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:36:06 +0100 Subject: pdp-11/35 on Ebay UK In-Reply-To: <668844.38284.qm@web114204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <668844.38284.qm@web114204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BC4D5B6.5000403@machineroom.info> Julian Skidmore wrote: > Hi folks, > > Looks like cctech's missed this one, but there's still several hours to go! > > There's a pdp-11/35 being auctioned on Ebay uk: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DEC-PDP-11-35-with-EIS-and-Core-Memory-PDP-11-PDP11_W0QQitemZ130380319955QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_VintageComputing_RL?hash=item1e5b45ccd3 > > It's in Halifax; a mere 50Km from where I live! Unfortunately, I can't > afford it :-( But I thought you might like to see what's going down > oop North ;-) > > -cheers from Julz @P > > > > > > > Went for just over UKP1100 which seems like a good deal, given the EIS, 32K core and reasonable front panel. Sadly way out of my budget too! James From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 16:47:38 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > I've had a look at the Memorex 112 manual on Bitsavers. If your drive is > similar, you might bave big problems. I believe the drives are very similar, but haven't had much time to peruse the schematics yet. > The relay contact is part of a 4-pole relay used to turn on the spindle > motor (the other 3 poles connect braking resistors ot the windings) The > 10 Ohm (5W) resistor is the fred to the collector of a power transistor, > whcih is the pass transistor for a simple 12V regulator. The emitter of > that transistor is the output of the 12V regualtor and feeds a lot of > analuge circuitry. > > My guess is that the transsitor is OK (but it would be worth checking) and > that you have something downstream of it that is drawing exceessive > current. It might be a shorted decoupling capacitor, it might be an IC. > And to make things worse there seem to be some custom analogue ICs in > this drive. I'll keep my fingers crossed on that. >> The heads are not stuck. If I tip the drive, I can watch them slide >> across the platter from their own weight. Should have mentioned before >> that this thing has a translucent plastic top :-). >> > RIght..The Model 112 is a stapepr motor positioned, BTW. That is what I'd > expect in a low capacity, but large platter drive like this. The trackls > would be suufficiently wide that a stepper motor would be fine. You need > a voice coil positioner taking a servo signal from the disk if you have a > high tranck density, of course. Ugh. I'm not sure what I was smoking when I claimed it was a voice-coil positioner... It is indeed a stepper motor. Sorry about that! Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 16:52:23 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk In-Reply-To: <5A23658C65324A318CF0B4CEE294B1E4@tegp4> References: <5A23658C65324A318CF0B4CEE294B1E4@tegp4> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Tom Gardner wrote: >> Message: 27 >> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:01:07 -0400 (EDT) >> From: Steven Hirsch >> Subject: Re: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed >> >> On Mon, 12 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> >>>> Has anyone on the list seen or work with one of these? I received a >>>> Morrow M-20 8-inch hard disk along with my N* Horizon and found the >>>> Memorex 102 disk mechanism inside (what a beast!). > >> The drive is not particularly small, BTW. This is a beast of an 8" drive >> mechanism with five platters and a voice-coil positioned. > > > The Memorex 102 had four platters and a stepper motor. As I wrote in a reply to Tony, I screwed up. It is indeed four platters and a stepper. The drive is clearly badged as a Memorex 102. Going in too many directions at once here, I think :-). > A 10 ohm resistor would limit the inrush to 2.4 Amps with zero spindle motor > resistance. Given the 112 has an inrush of 4.5 Amps, this further suggests > this is not a 102. Ok, but that doesn't change the fact that the drive is labeled as a 102. > I have a disassembled 101 in my garage if that would help and I can find it > Would you have any interest in parting with it should I need any custom components? Methinks the custom logic may be the same between the models. And, thanks for the input and help. I don't know what I'd do without cctech. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 16:56:49 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: <4BC4A996.4020703@jbrain.com> References: <4BC4A996.4020703@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Jim Brain wrote: > On 4/13/2010 3:32 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> I?ve gotten back into my Atari systems again and since I had a couple Indus >> GT drives, I found a schematic for the RAM upgrade board for the drives, >> and >> had PCB?s made :) my first professionally produced PCB?s in 20+ years. >> I?m >> quite pleased since it was a first effort with new software when I hadn?t >> touched EDA software in 20 years or so. >> > Can you share the schematic? It might be of use to CBM Indus owners. Jim, the schematic is available on the web: http://trub.atari8.info/index.php?ref=sramcharger_en Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 16:58:03 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 17:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > I?ve gotten back into my Atari systems again and since I had a couple Indus > GT drives, I found a schematic for the RAM upgrade board for the drives, and > had PCB?s made :) my first professionally produced PCB?s in 20+ years. I?m > quite pleased since it was a first effort with new software when I hadn?t > touched EDA software in 20 years or so. > > Lessons learned were: > > Increase PAD size :) these are solderable, but are just a touch too small > by the software default. > Validate that pin one indicators REALLY render out to the gerbers. I have to > refer back to my PCB design for pin one since it didn?t render. > Quadruple check that all wires and nets are present. I discovered that a > trace between 2 pins on the connector(s) disappeared on me at some point > during editing, it is entirely possible I deleted it like an ID10T. So for > this run of boards, wire-wrap wire will be my friend to jumper the 2 pins at > the PCB. If you do another run of these, I'd be interested in one. This is the one that uses SRAM, correct? Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 21:05:02 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> The downstream leg of the 10-ohm power resistor goes to a 2SD768 power >> device and I'm having a lot of trouble following it from there. I think >> your guess about a regulator for the 12V circuitry is probably correct. > > THis does sound very like the schematic that I was looking at in the 112 > manual. The relay there eneables the spindle motor (and maybe the > positioner drivers too), the resistor feeds a power transistor that's the > pass tranasitor for the 12V regualtor. > > The fact that the drive fails totally if the resistor is removed would > seem to indicate that the otuput of that 12V regulator is somewhat > present. > > I have suggested in my least message that iy would eb worth measuring the > votlages on the leads of that transistor. > > What if the transistor was shorted? The regualtor would then become a > simple resistor + zner circuit. The reissotr would ahve to drop 10 or > 12V, and woul;d get hot and bothered!. The zener diode wouldn't like it > much either (are you sure _nothing_ else is getting hot?). Anyway, it's > worth checking this. As you surmised, the problem was on the 12V rail, which measured 0.5 ohms to ground. It runs to quite a number of chips, but was surprising easy to follow around and through the various via holes. I dragged out the dremel tool and did a binary search by slicing traces. Took the full logN tries, but on the last cut I nailed a 4.7ufd / 16V tantalum cap with a dead short :-). I could _really_ learn to start hating the blasted things. It seems like almost every failure of this type has a tantalum cap behind it - on both audio and computer gear. Just finished resurrecting a KLH/Burwen phono noise suppressor in which EVERY blasted one of the things was shorted. My eyes are crossed from staring through the board at a bright light... Will patch traces and reassemble tomorrow. I'll let you know if things cooperate. Thanks again for getting me headed in the right direction! Steve -- From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 14 02:32:02 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 00:32:02 -0700 Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/13/10 2:58 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> I?ve gotten back into my Atari systems again and since I had a couple Indus >> GT drives, I found a schematic for the RAM upgrade board for the drives, and >> had PCB?s made :) my first professionally produced PCB?s in 20+ years. I?m >> quite pleased since it was a first effort with new software when I hadn?t >> touched EDA software in 20 years or so. >> >> Lessons learned were: >> >> Increase PAD size :) these are solderable, but are just a touch too small >> by the software default. >> Validate that pin one indicators REALLY render out to the gerbers. I have to >> refer back to my PCB design for pin one since it didn?t render. >> Quadruple check that all wires and nets are present. I discovered that a >> trace between 2 pins on the connector(s) disappeared on me at some point >> during editing, it is entirely possible I deleted it like an ID10T. So for >> this run of boards, wire-wrap wire will be my friend to jumper the 2 pins at >> the PCB. > > If you do another run of these, I'd be interested in one. This is the one > that uses SRAM, correct? > > Steve > Yes, uses 1/2 of a 628128. :) I have a good supply of the boards, I got 25 of them :) From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 06:32:46 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 07:32:46 -0400 Subject: Did someone have a hack for 8" or 5-1/4" drives using a FlasH drive ? In-Reply-To: <4BC4A940.21484.216B725@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BC4CA8A.6060901@comcast.net>, <8CCA97C43AE04EF-34D8-62D4@webmail-d092.sysops.aol.com> <4BC4A940.21484.216B725@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BC5A7DE.9020003@comcast.net> thanks for the links ! =Dan http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Apr 14 09:31:46 2010 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:31:46 -0500 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <251201cadb38$07b38ee0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com><201004111834.o3BIYOfI011232@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <251201cadb38$07b38ee0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B4697C@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> For anything important, I wouldn't trust just optical media. External hard drives are so inexpensive with such a large capacity. Storing important things on a couple instances of magnetic media, perhaps in additional to optical, might be a safer way to preserve them. (A couple big external drives, stored in a couple of safe, offsite, locations etc). -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 1:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info? > Can't speak to reliability. You might want to consider the relative > size of the scanned PDF docs that are common versus the size of the mini > cds. The rectangular ones can be as small as 50 MB or less. I have old CD-Rs as old as 1996 vintage. This is an old Gold + green TDK CD-R. But do new CDs has the same reliability record??? This is an excellent question - how to preserve data, and a recurrent one on this list :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 09:35:31 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:35:31 -0300 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com><201004111834.o3BIYOfI011232@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><251201cadb38$07b38ee0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B4697C@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> >For anything important, I wouldn't trust just optical media. External hard >drives are so inexpensive with such a large capacity. >Storing important things on a couple instances of magnetic media, perhaps >in additional to optical, might be a safer way to preserve >them. (A couple big external drives, stored in a couple of safe, offsite, >locations etc). And you leave them some years without turning on, the heads glue to the disk surface and bye bye. What about memory cards? CFs are cheap and IDE interfaces may be avaiable for years to come :oO From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 14 09:45:27 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 07:45:27 -0700 Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: > From: snhirsch at gmail.com > ---snip--- > As you surmised, the problem was on the 12V rail, which measured 0.5 ohms > to ground. It runs to quite a number of chips, but was surprising easy to > follow around and through the various via holes. I dragged out the dremel > tool and did a binary search by slicing traces. Took the full logN tries, > but on the last cut I nailed a 4.7ufd / 16V tantalum cap with a dead short > :-). > > Hi Ahhhh! I have a none destructive method of locating such shorts. It requires a bench power supply and a good DVM. You set the supply on a low voltage and current limit at about 2 amps. Place the outputs of the supply from end to far end of the 12V rail ( not through the short ). A small voltage will drop across the trace from end to end. With a DVM on a 200 mv scale, one should be able to see this drop. Place one meter lead on the ground. With the other lead, probe along the 12V rail. When the voltage on the DVM goes to 0, you've reached the location of the short. To develope enough voltage across the length of the trace, you may need to increase the current. Check the trace after each increase to make sure it is not gettin to hot. Power rails can usually take quite a bit. If the rail has a number of fingers, first connect the supply along the main rail and locate the shorted finger. Next move one of the supply leads to the end of that finger and repeat the probing. This method can be extended to power planes ( I've done this ) but it is a little hard to describe in text and easier to show. I have used this metode many times and never failed to locate the short. It works better with a 5 digit voltmeter but I've used a 4 digit in a pinch. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Apr 14 09:51:50 2010 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 07:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Make magazine interviews Forest Mims about Ed Roberts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <512503.16651.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/04/remembering_ed_roberts_the_father_o.html From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Apr 14 10:10:14 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Locating short circuits (was Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > I have a none destructive method of locating such shorts. It requires > a bench power supply and a good DVM. Has anyone here used an ESR meter to locate a short across the power rails? If so, what's the technique? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 10:34:43 2010 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:34:43 -0400 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> <201004111834.o3BIYOfI011232@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <251201cadb38$07b38ee0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B4697C@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:35, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > What about memory cards? CFs are cheap and IDE interfaces may be avaiable > for years to come :oO > I wonder if anyone has done tests on OCR'ing uuencoded printouts. I know people have come previously with methods to store binary data on printouts, to be machine-read by scanning - but do any of those include a fallback to typing in parts that may be unscannable? Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 11:25:46 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:25:46 -0400 Subject: Locating short circuits (was Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4BC5EC8A.8070405@comcast.net> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I have a none destructive method of locating such shorts. It requires >> a bench power supply and a good DVM. > > Has anyone here used an ESR meter to locate a short across the > power rails? If so, what's the technique? I guess you mean this http://www.electronicrepairguide.com/esr-meter.html But you really want a Milli-Ohm Meter to find shorts with more precision when it comes to connections with several components on there, about 0.1 milli-ohm resolution. That lets you pinpoint the short directly to the sport on the pcb, even between the next pin on a chip. I just found a place online the other week that has one for $150 from Ruby Electronics, other costs 3 times as much, but I still have to wait to get one myself--other bills still have priority :) http://tinyurl.com/y4d7op5 =Dan From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 11:27:09 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 12:27:09 -0400 Subject: Locating short circuits (was Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4BC5ECDD.2070204@comcast.net> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I have a none destructive method of locating such shorts. It requires >> a bench power supply and a good DVM. > > Has anyone here used an ESR meter to locate a short across the > power rails? If so, what's the technique? I guess you mean this http://www.electronicrepairguide.com/esr-meter.html But you really want a Milli-Ohm Meter to find shorts with more precision when it comes to connections with several components on there, about 0.1 milli-ohm resolution. That lets you pinpoint the short directly to the sport on the pcb, even between the next pin on a chip. I just found a place online the other week that has one for $150 from Ruby Electronics, other costs 3 times as much, but I still have to wait to get one myself--other bills still have priority :) http://tinyurl.com/y4d7op5 =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 14 11:48:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:48:18 -0700 Subject: Locating short circuits (was Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk) In-Reply-To: <4BC5ECDD.2070204@comcast.net> References: , , <4BC5ECDD.2070204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BC58F62.10854.3A8B3E@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Apr 2010 at 12:27, Dan Roganti wrote: > But you really want a Milli-Ohm Meter to find shorts with more > precision when it comes to connections with several components on > there, about 0.1 milli-ohm resolution. That lets you pinpoint the > short directly to the sport on the pcb, even between the next pin on a > chip. I just found a place online the other week that has one for $150 > from Ruby Electronics, other costs 3 times as much, but I still have > to wait to get one myself--other bills still have priority :) > http://tinyurl.com/y4d7op5 As long as you don't require calibration, isn't a milliohmmeter for this application pretty much a matter of wiring up an inexpensive op- amp with a small current source? http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/ohmmeter.htm Here's a neat little circuit that uses an LM317 regulator. You could build it out of components in your hellbox in a matter of minutes: http://www.edn.com/article/CA408390.html The basic idea is that you don't actually need an accurate quantitative measurement, but rather a relative one as you probe down the PCB. Alternatively, one could use a wheatstone or kelvin bridge with a microammeter. While a lab milliohmmeter would be a cool thing to have, it's not necessary. Cheers, Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 14 12:16:54 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 17:16:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Locating short circuits (was Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk) In-Reply-To: <4BC58F62.10854.3A8B3E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <298542003.15771681271265414203.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> ----- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > As long as you don't require calibration, isn't a milliohmmeter for > this application pretty much a matter of wiring up an inexpensive op- > amp with a small current source? > > http://baec.tripod.com/DEC90/ohmmeter.htm > > Here's a neat little circuit that uses an LM317 regulator. You could > build it out of components in your hellbox in a matter of minutes: > > http://www.edn.com/article/CA408390.html Hey, I like that, especially when it saves me money !! I didn't have much luck googling that before when I needed one. Thanks again for the link. You must be the Grandmaster Google Search Meister =Dan -- http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 14 12:52:13 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:52:13 -0700 Subject: Locating short circuits (was Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk) In-Reply-To: <4BC5EC8A.8070405@comcast.net> References: ,, , , <4BC5EC8A.8070405@comcast.net> Message-ID: > From: ragooman at comcast.net > > Mike Loewen wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > > > >> I have a none destructive method of locating such shorts. It requires > >> a bench power supply and a good DVM. > > > > Has anyone here used an ESR meter to locate a short across the > > power rails? If so, what's the technique? > I guess you mean this > http://www.electronicrepairguide.com/esr-meter.html > > But you really want a Milli-Ohm Meter to find shorts with more precision > when it comes to connections with several components on there, about 0.1 > milli-ohm resolution. That lets you pinpoint the short directly to the > sport on the pcb, even between the next pin on a chip. I just found a > place online the other week that has one for $150 from Ruby Electronics, > other costs 3 times as much, but I still have to wait to get one > myself--other bills still have priority :) > http://tinyurl.com/y4d7op5 > Hi It is obvious that you have never tried my method if you truly believe that a Milli-Ohm meter is easier to find shorts than the method I describe. I've spent many years using various techniques to find shorts on all kinds of boards and systems. I've use TDRs, Milli-Ohm meters, thermal paper and even expensive HP current probes. Of these, the method I describes was the simplest and cheapest method. It requires no special equipment and is far superior to a milli-ohm meter. The other methods I'd mentioned are superior to the milli-ohm meter method. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From michael_holley at mentor.com Wed Apr 14 13:06:39 2010 From: michael_holley at mentor.com (Holley, Michael) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 11:06:39 -0700 Subject: Make magazine interviews Forest Mims about Ed Roberts In-Reply-To: <512503.16651.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <512503.16651.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB301440C86@na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> I read the 1975 Popular Electronics but I never owned an Altair computer. I did build an IMSAI 8080 for someone else and used a Processor Technology SOL; my system of choice was the Southwest Technical Products 6800. I few years ago I started improving the Altair 8800 article on Wikipedia and ended up doing a lot of detailed research on Micro Instrumentation and Telemetry Systems. Bruce Damer of DigiBarn gave Forrest Mims my name and I ended up writing several more Wikipedia articles on MITS and the Altair. I would get Forrest to review my work and he also provided details and photographs. In November of last year, Forrest told Bruce and me about Ed Roberts's illness. I started a new biography on Ed Roberts that I finished in March and placed it on Wikipedia. The only MITS product I ever owned was a copy of Altair 680 BASIC that I bought to use on my SWTPC6800 computer. I ended up being a historian on Altair and MITS. Here are some of my Wikipedia articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Instrumentation_and_Telemetry_Systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Roberts_(computers) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_Rocketry_(magazine) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Mims http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Letter_to_Hobbyists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altair_8800 I could use some pictures of Altair boards, especially a 4K Dynamic RAM board. Michael Holley swtpc at comcast.net -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Liendo Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Make magazine interviews Forest Mims about Ed Roberts http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/04/remembering_ed_roberts_the_fath er_o.html From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Apr 14 13:23:14 2010 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:23:14 -0500 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com><201004111834.o3BIYOfI011232@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><251201cadb38$07b38ee0$0132a8c0@Alexandre><3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B4697C@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B4697F@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Run them every few months at least. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 9:36 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info? >For anything important, I wouldn't trust just optical media. External hard >drives are so inexpensive with such a large capacity. >Storing important things on a couple instances of magnetic media, perhaps >in additional to optical, might be a safer way to preserve >them. (A couple big external drives, stored in a couple of safe, offsite, >locations etc). And you leave them some years without turning on, the heads glue to the disk surface and bye bye. What about memory cards? CFs are cheap and IDE interfaces may be avaiable for years to come :oO From dave09 at dunfield.com Wed Apr 14 14:22:27 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:22:27 -0500 Subject: Make magazine interviews Forest Mims about Ed Roberts In-Reply-To: <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB301440C86@na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> References: <512503.16651.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <25AC34523898@dunfield.com> Michael, > The only MITS product I ever owned was a copy of Altair 680 BASIC that I > bought to use on my SWTPC6800 computer. I ended up being a historian on > Altair and MITS. Really glad to see that someone is doing this. > I could use some pictures of Altair boards, especially a 4K Dynamic RAM > board. I've got many pictures of my Altairs up on my site, both closed and opened up. I've also got photos of a number of MITS cards, including the 4K DRAM board - click on the "S100" header to go to the S100-cards library, and from there you will find photos and manuals for many different S100 cards. Please feel free to use any photos you wish. If you need larger/higher-res photos of anything, contact me and I'll see what I can do. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 14:01:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 20:01:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: <4BC4D88E.7040608@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Apr 13, 10 10:48:14 pm Message-ID: > >> I would be more conserned with getting my long hair caught in the disk. > > > > Which would certainly cause a headcrash... (Note I didn't say which head > > would crash and into what ;-)) > > I've been told by my local DEC field engineer that the heads don't get in trouble with big stuff > i.e. everything you can see. That's just kicked off the disk - dangerous is the stuff that fits > under the heads... Hair does not fit under the heads. My comment could also be taken to mean that if hair attached to you head gets caught in the drive mechanism, then _your_ head will crash into some prt of the drive chassis. But anyway, getting back to the normal sense of 'headcrash', I am not brave enough to try dropping a hair on a running RK05 platter to see what happens (Yes, I have spare heads and the alignment pack, but I am not goign to waste them). It might well be alright, but I am not going to risk it. > > Oh, that bad RK8E controller just confronts me with "Data break error" :-( IIRC a ;'data break' is a bit like DMA. I do haev the prints and some technical desription, so I could help you debug this sometime... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 14:07:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 20:07:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 13, 10 10:05:02 pm Message-ID: > As you surmised, the problem was on the 12V rail, which measured 0.5 ohms That is 'guessed' :-). Please remember I've never seen this type of drive, I've certainly not seen the faulty one, and I was working from a possibly incorrect scheamtic. No, even 'guessed' is too strong a word.. > to ground. It runs to quite a number of chips, but was surprising easy to > follow around and through the various via holes. I dragged out the dremel > tool and did a binary search by slicing traces. Took the full logN tries, > but on the last cut I nailed a 4.7ufd / 16V tantalum cap with a dead short > :-). I see. I hope that's the only fault. A capaacitor is easy to replace. > > I could _really_ learn to start hating the blasted things. It seems like > almost every failure of this type has a tantalum cap behind it - on both I know the feeling. Often power supply decouplers at least annouce their failure with smoke signals. But yours didn't even do that. > audio and computer gear. Just finished resurrecting a KLH/Burwen phono > noise suppressor in which EVERY blasted one of the things was shorted. > > My eyes are crossed from staring through the board at a bright light... > Will patch traces and reassemble tomorrow. I'll let you know if things > cooperate. I hope it works.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 14 15:01:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:01:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral questions Message-ID: I've been reading the HP Integral service manual that Al kindly put on Bitsavers [1], It's a strange manual in that it includes schematics of the main logic boards. Why, I don't know, other comtemporary HP computer service manuals didn't. Not that I'm complaining... Anyway, various thoughts occured to me as I remember some thignn about that machine 1) Did HP ever produce the CS/80, SS/80 or Amigo drive exerciser software to run on the Integral? It seems it would be the ideal machine for use as a drive tester since it's so easily portable. 2) The later version of the OS ROM module has a space for an option ROM PCB. It seems like this would be trivial to recreate (schematics of the ROM Mmodule, inclding the pinouts of the option board connectors are certainly in 'my' Integral schematics). If enough people are interesd, it might be worth laying out a PCB... 3) The manual mentions that the Integral expansion bus was an implementation of some other HP standard bus, but only rows A and C. What other machine(s) used a similar bus? I can't think of any. [1] I've also been reading the HP9000/200 Pascal 3.0 system docuementation. A wonderful mine of information, but oh so annoying to read on a screen... -tony From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Wed Apr 14 15:12:03 2010 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:12:03 -0700 Subject: Searching Sage-IV ROM 2.0/2.1 dump In-Reply-To: <4BC07F6B.50705@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4BC07F6B.50705@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <017801cadc0e$c49a2650$4dce72f0$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holger Veit > Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 6:39 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Searching Sage-IV ROM 2.0/2.1 dump > > Hi, > I already asked this in thesimh mailinglist, without replies, so maybe > this list is more appropriate to get a response. > I am working on a SIMH emulator for the Sage&Stride 68k machines > (Sage-II/IV). There is a lot of docs available at > sageandstride.org, which is the base for the development. One thing I > haven't found yet is a more recent boot ROM > than the available 1.2 version; docs mention 2.0 and 2.1. These > versions > have, besides presumably a number of bug > fixes, support for the winchester disk card. > > Does anyone have a rom dump (any format) of such a BIOS (16k)? I > already > tried to contact David Erhart, the owner of the above > site, but twice didn't get any response. > > Thanks in advance > Holger > > P.S. The code is not yet ready to release (still some bugs in the FDC > part, some missing instructions, and the HDC support), > but I'll report in the simh developers list when it is. Hi Holger, I missed your earlier emails, sorry. I'll look for them. I can help with the ROMs. I can pull working ROMs from Sage II and Sage IV systems. I'm not sure right now what versions. I'll have to look into that. I'll need to get an EPROM programmer up and running again though. If anyone is near San Mateo, California with one up and running that I can come over and use, that would speed up the process. Regards, David. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 14 15:38:45 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Electric Dreams (UK'ers only) Message-ID: <410780.19805.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, I happened to catch the last 20 minutes or so of the programme Electric Dreams, which appears to be on for the next few days on BBC2, starting at 7pm. A family have volunteered to see what life was like in the previous decades (70's, 80's, 90's). That is to say old modern tech in the house and home has been replaced by old tech - so no X360 or PS3 for the kids! Tonight's episode was about the 70's and included a short scene with Sir Clive Sinclair, a Sinclair calculator, an old Sinclair TV advert and a Commodore PET - the father was trying (and failing) to do his day-to-day work on the PET! Here's a link to the BBC site for those that can access it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/electricdreams/ Tomorrows episode is going to be about the 80's, and will include a BBC Micro among the 80's tech. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 14 15:50:14 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:50:14 -0700 Subject: Searching Sage-IV ROM 2.0/2.1 dump In-Reply-To: <017801cadc0e$c49a2650$4dce72f0$@com> References: <4BC07F6B.50705@iais.fraunhofer.de> <017801cadc0e$c49a2650$4dce72f0$@com> Message-ID: <4BC62A86.7000709@bitsavers.org> On 4/14/10 1:12 PM, David W. Erhart wrote: >If anyone is near San Mateo, California with one up and running that I can come > over and use, that would speed up the process. > You can use the one here at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View. I'm around most of the time. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 15:51:07 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 13:51:07 -0700 Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > 2) The later version of the OS ROM module has a space for an option ROM > PCB. It seems like this would be trivial to recreate (schematics of the > ROM Mmodule, inclding the pinouts of the option board connectors are > certainly in 'my' Integral schematics). If enough people are interesd, > it might be worth laying out a PCB... > I had an OS ROM module with BASIC in ROM on the daughter card. I no longer have an Integral. Would it be any easier or more difficult to create a whole new ROM module board vs. creating a daughter card to fit an existing ROM module board? I suppose you might not have space to fit all of the ROMs on a single board if you wanted to use through hole components. When I still had my Integral I was thinking it would be interesting if someone could create a new ROM board for the expansion slots that could be loaded with the contents of the Software Development ROM module. If someone has an Integral that is completely missing the OS ROM module I think I have a spare one left (one without the BASIC ROM daughter card). -Glen From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Wed Apr 14 16:26:40 2010 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 14:26:40 -0700 Subject: Searching Sage-IV ROM 2.0/2.1 dump In-Reply-To: <4BC62A86.7000709@bitsavers.org> References: <4BC07F6B.50705@iais.fraunhofer.de> <017801cadc0e$c49a2650$4dce72f0$@com> <4BC62A86.7000709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <019101cadc19$2da2d660$88e88320$@com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 1:50 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Searching Sage-IV ROM 2.0/2.1 dump > > On 4/14/10 1:12 PM, David W. Erhart wrote: > >If anyone is near San Mateo, California with one up and running that I > can come > > over and use, that would speed up the process. > > > > You can use the one here at the Computer History Museum in Mountain > View. I'm > around most of the time. Thanks!! I'll pull the ROMs this weekend and set up a time to use your equipment. david. From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 01:35:52 2010 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 01:35:52 -0500 Subject: Infoworlds (1983-1985) In-Reply-To: <4BC4DFDB.7000907@snarc.net> References: <217901cadb03$62dbb070$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <4BC46C14.6090606@atarimuseum.com> <4BC49A17.4040905@snarc.net> <4BC4AE63.7040101@atarimuseum.com> <4BC4DFDB.7000907@snarc.net> Message-ID: http://www.aboutonlinetips.com/google-books-downloader/ Easiest is number 3, Greasemonkey version. Actually puts a disk icon off to the side of the page, click on it and it brings up the entire page image completely saveable (jpg format). Marty On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I printed out some articles by taking screen shots of full-page views. > > --------------------------------------------- >> >> Yes, I know - but you can't print them out. >> >> >> On 4/13/2010 12:21 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> >>> No, but the complete issues are on Google Books. ?I discovered that by >>> accident. >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Anyone have Infoworlds from 1983 through 1985 they are looking to sell ? >>>> >>>> >>>> Curt > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 14 18:02:24 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:02:24 -0700 Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> Glen Slick wrote: > When I still had my Integral I was thinking it would be interesting if > someone could create a new ROM board for the expansion slots that > could be loaded with the contents of the Software Development ROM > module. > Is there already a dump of the Software Engineering ROM Module (82987A)? I've got several Integrals but don't have that module to dump. If a dump were to become available, I'd be willing to design a new board with a flash memory chip. Maybe with expansion RAM as well. Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 14 18:28:03 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:28:03 -0700 Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> References: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BC64F83.8010101@bitsavers.org> On 4/14/10 4:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Is there already a dump of the Software Engineering ROM Module (82987A)? > The sw engr rom is on pete's site www.coho.org/~pete/downloads/IPC What about a dump of the main rom? From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 14 18:31:30 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 19:31:30 -0400 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B4697C@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <201004141931.30621.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 14 April 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >For anything important, I wouldn't trust just optical media. > > External hard drives are so inexpensive with such a large capacity. > >Storing important things on a couple instances of magnetic media, > > perhaps in additional to optical, might be a safer way to preserve > >them. (A couple big external drives, stored in a couple of safe, > > offsite, locations etc). > > And you leave them some years without turning on, the heads glue to > the disk surface and bye bye. Why would you leave them turned off for any more time than absolutely necessary? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 14 18:32:40 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:32:40 -0700 Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> References: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4BC65098.1050005@bitsavers.org> On 4/14/10 4:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Is there already a dump of the Software Engineering ROM Module (82987A)? Would there have been two different versions for the SysIII and SysV versions of HP-UX? From brain at jbrain.com Thu Apr 15 00:21:23 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:21:23 -0500 Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: References: <4BC4A996.4020703@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4BC6A253.9010400@jbrain.com> On 4/13/2010 4:56 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Jim Brain wrote: > >> On 4/13/2010 3:32 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>> I?ve gotten back into my Atari systems again and since I had a >>> couple Indus >>> GT drives, I found a schematic for the RAM upgrade board for the >>> drives, and >>> had PCB?s made :) my first professionally produced PCB?s in 20+ >>> years. I?m >>> quite pleased since it was a first effort with new software when I >>> hadn?t >>> touched EDA software in 20 years or so. >>> >> Can you share the schematic? It might be of use to CBM Indus owners. > > Jim, the schematic is available on the web: > > http://trub.atari8.info/index.php?ref=sramcharger_en > > Steve > > I wonder if this Z80 CP/M in the IndusGT for CBM was ever available. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From useddec at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 00:28:18 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:28:18 -0500 Subject: UCSD p-System hoard to disperse In-Reply-To: <201004021730.o32HUlkS077931@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201004021730.o32HUlkS077931@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: Hi John, I sent you an off list e-mail last week and haven't heard back yet. Is the equipment still available? Thanks, Paul On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:30 PM, John Foust wrote: > > I've been contacted by a former software developer with extensive > experience > with the UCSD p-System on several platforms. He'd like to dispose of most > of his equipment and documentation. > > I'd like to help him find a new home for it all. I'm not quite sure > how to do that, but it might depend on who else is interested. > Please contact me if you are. He is located in southern Illinois, USA. > I am located in southern Wisconsin, about six hours away. > > I'd like his spare Terak 8510 system and a Cipher 9 track. > > There are two PDQ-3 systems. I am tempted to take one, as it is closely > related to the Terak. These are LSI-11 with Western Digital microcode to > run the p-System directly. They include 10 or 20 meg hard drives. They > are circa 1982. I think they're rare. The only mention I find is on > a UC-Irvine web page, although I've emailed with someone who worked at > the company that made them (Advanced Computer Design?). One of the hard > drives might contain some source code from ACD. He used these for software > development. I've found references that say these systems were used > to develop in Modula 2 and FORTRAN. They competed with the Sage. > > There's an Atari 1040 ST running the p-System. > > There are four or five 68000-based multitasking multiuser Pinnacle Systems > (later Logic Process) systems. These drove 8 to 16 users on Wyse 50 > terminals. They are circa 1983. One is the bigger unit with more > horsepower and an internal tape drive. > > There's two Corvus Omninet drives, with various junction boxes, cabling > and interface cards - perhaps for PC, Apple II and maybe Q-bus. > > There's a bunch of p-System books, newsletters, etc. as well as > software. He was a USUS member. > > There's a VT 220 and several Wyse 50 terminals. I might want the 220. > > It sounds like there's lots of software going all the way back to a > copy of Wirth's CDC compiler. > > - John > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 15 00:37:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:37:25 -0700 Subject: Terak disk update Message-ID: <4BC643A5.24884.2FAB367@cclist.sydex.com> List, Just for the "FYI" file, Terak (UCSD Pascal) floppies appear to be either SSSD 3740 format (FM 77 tracks * 26 sectors * 128 bytes) or SSDD (Track 0, FM 26 sectors * 128 bytes, not used) 76 tracks * MFM 15 sectors * 512 bytes. The double-density format is definitely standard MFM, not DEC RX02 (FM headers, "tweaked MFM data). The MFM format is interleaved 2 to 1 with a one-sector skew per cylinder. The FM format is also interleaved 2 to 1 with a 6 sector skew per cylinder. For whatever it's worth, Chuck (P.S. I wouldn't mind owning a Terak, judging from some of the program code I've seen). From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 20:49:08 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:49:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, dwight elvey wrote: > >> From: snhirsch at gmail.com >> > > ---snip--- >> As you surmised, the problem was on the 12V rail, which measured 0.5 ohms >> to ground. It runs to quite a number of chips, but was surprising easy to >> follow around and through the various via holes. I dragged out the dremel >> tool and did a binary search by slicing traces. Took the full logN tries, >> but on the last cut I nailed a 4.7ufd / 16V tantalum cap with a dead short >> :-). >> >> > > > > Hi > > Ahhhh! > > I have a none destructive method of locating such shorts. It requires > > a bench power supply and a good DVM. > > You set the supply on a low voltage and current limit at about 2 amps. > > Place the outputs of the supply from end to far end of the 12V rail > > ( not through the short ). > > A small voltage will drop across the trace from end to end. With > > a DVM on a 200 mv scale, one should be able to see this drop. > > Place one meter lead on the ground. With the other lead, probe > > along the 12V rail. > > When the voltage on the DVM goes to 0, you've reached the location > > of the short. > > To develope enough voltage across the length of the trace, you > > may need to increase the current. Check the trace after each > > increase to make sure it is not gettin to hot. Power rails can usually > > take quite a bit. > > If the rail has a number of fingers, first connect the supply along the > > main rail and locate the shorted finger. Next move one of the supply > > leads to the end of that finger and repeat the probing. > > This method can be extended to power planes ( I've done this ) > > but it is a little hard to describe in text and easier to show. > > I have used this metode many times and never failed to locate > > the short. It works better with a 5 digit voltmeter but I've used > > a 4 digit in a pinch. Thanks for the tip, Dwight! I've actually mused about doing something like that, but never quite had the nerve. Will keep it in mind for the future. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 20:52:13 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> The downstream leg of the 10-ohm power resistor goes to a 2SD768 power >>> device and I'm having a lot of trouble following it from there. I think >>> your guess about a regulator for the 12V circuitry is probably correct. >> >> THis does sound very like the schematic that I was looking at in the 112 >> manual. The relay there eneables the spindle motor (and maybe the >> positioner drivers too), the resistor feeds a power transistor that's the >> pass tranasitor for the 12V regualtor. >> >> The fact that the drive fails totally if the resistor is removed would >> seem to indicate that the otuput of that 12V regulator is somewhat >> present. >> >> I have suggested in my least message that iy would eb worth measuring the >> votlages on the leads of that transistor. >> >> What if the transistor was shorted? The regualtor would then become a >> simple resistor + zner circuit. The reissotr would ahve to drop 10 or >> 12V, and woul;d get hot and bothered!. The zener diode wouldn't like it >> much either (are you sure _nothing_ else is getting hot?). Anyway, it's >> worth checking this. > > As you surmised, the problem was on the 12V rail, which measured 0.5 ohms to > ground. It runs to quite a number of chips, but was surprising easy to > follow around and through the various via holes. I dragged out the dremel > tool and did a binary search by slicing traces. Took the full logN tries, > but on the last cut I nailed a 4.7ufd / 16V tantalum cap with a dead short > :-). Well, there might have been an easier way of finding the short, but this worked fine. I replaced the cap, patched everything up and fired it up. Purrs like a kitten :-). All the voltages look correct, nothing is excessively hot (although a few of the 74LS parts are a bit warmer than I would have expected). Will be a few days before I can hook it up to the controller and see if it's functional. Steve -- From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Apr 15 04:05:14 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:05:14 +0200 Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: <4BC65098.1050005@bitsavers.org> References: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> <4BC65098.1050005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: donderdag 15 april 2010 1:33 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HP Integral questions > > On 4/14/10 4:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Is there already a dump of the Software Engineering ROM > Module (82987A)? > > > Would there have been two different versions for the SysIII > and SysV versions of HP-UX? > > > Yep, HP made 2 ROM version a version 1.0 which was based on BSD III http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3299632917/in/set-72157623014583339/ And they made a HP-UX 5.0 which was based on BSD V, the most usefull version. The system V is sold as update for the HP-UX 1.0. I'm not sure if it's sold much but the most Integrals I know of are running the HP-UX 5.0 version. -Rik From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 15 06:51:04 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:51:04 +0200 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC6FDA8.1090103@hachti.de> Hi, > My comment could also be taken to mean that if hair attached to you head > gets caught in the drive mechanism, then _your_ head will crash into some > prt of the drive chassis. If you make jokes, you should assume that someone could intend to get you wrong :-) > But anyway, getting back to the normal sense of 'headcrash', I am not > brave enough to try dropping a hair on a running RK05 platter to see what > happens (Yes, I have spare heads and the alignment pack, but I am not > goign to waste them). It might well be alright, but I am not going to > risk it. I'm sure I dropped a hair on it without realizing :) >> Oh, that bad RK8E controller just confronts me with "Data break error" :-( > > IIRC a ;'data break' is a bit like DMA. I do haev the prints and some > technical desription, so I could help you debug this sometime... Ah, that was just the beginning of the ugly stuff. I have a few board sets laying around. They all seem to have issues. But I'll try to get them working before converting them to $$$ via eBay... My "private" RK8E is running fine since ever. Where to get 8235, 8251, 8271, 8881, and 380 in amounts?!? Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 15 07:04:22 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 08:04:22 -0400 Subject: MAINDEC-08-D5FA? original tape and/or scan of listing? Message-ID: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> Hi Does any have the original paper tape of MAINDEC-08-D5FA and/or a scan of it's source listing? It's an RF08 diagnostic for the PDP-8 The archived copies of the paper tape have a checksum error. I could reconstruct it, but I'd rather have a pdf of the source listing. I've looked and didn't find one anywhere. I'd also like to see a scan of the source to MAINDEC-08-D5EB if anyone has one. -brad ----------- Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting http://www.heeltoe.com 781-483-3101 From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 15 08:30:27 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:30:27 +0200 Subject: MAINDEC-08-D5FA? original tape and/or scan of listing? In-Reply-To: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> References: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4BC714F3.9090909@hachti.de> > Does any have the original paper tape of MAINDEC-08-D5FA and/or a scan > of it's source listing? > > It's an RF08 diagnostic for the PDP-8 I'll take a look next week. > I'd also like to see a scan of the source to MAINDEC-08-D5EB if anyone > has one. Will take a look as well. Perhaps I might be able to help. Would binaries on DECTape be ok as well? - Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 15 09:10:03 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 07:10:03 -0700 Subject: MAINDEC-08-D5FA? original tape and/or scan of listing? In-Reply-To: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> References: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4BC71E3B.2080802@bitsavers.org> On 4/15/10 5:04 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > The archived copies of the paper tape have a checksum error. I did a quick sweep through http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp-8 and there are several copies. Are they all bad? ./From_Vince_Slyngstad/maindec/maindec-08-d5fa-pb ./From_Vince_Slyngstad/maindec/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.od ./papertapeImages/set1/MAINDEC08_D5FA_PB_COPY2.BIN ./papertapeImages/set1/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.lab.txt ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.bin ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-8i-d5fa-pb.bin From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 15 09:11:04 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 07:11:04 -0700 Subject: MAINDEC-08-D5FA? original tape and/or scan of listing? In-Reply-To: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> References: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4BC71E78.5020802@bitsavers.org> On 4/15/10 5:04 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > The archived copies of the paper tape have a checksum error. I did a quick sweep through http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp-8 and there are several copies. Are they all bad? ./From_Vince_Slyngstad/maindec/maindec-08-d5fa-pb ./papertapeImages/set1/MAINDEC08_D5FA_PB_COPY2.BIN ./papertapeImages/set1/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.lab.txt ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.bin ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-8i-d5fa-pb.bin From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 15 10:17:08 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:17:08 -0400 Subject: MAINDEC-08-D5FA? original tape and/or scan of listing? In-Reply-To: <4BC714F3.9090909@hachti.de> (sfid-20100415_093705_049247_8A6327B3) References: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> <4BC714F3.9090909@hachti.de> (sfid-20100415_093705_049247_8A6327B3) Message-ID: <4BC72DF4.8060809@heeltoe.com> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> Does any have the original paper tape of MAINDEC-08-D5FA and/or a scan >> of it's source listing? >> > > Would binaries on DECTape be ok as well? Yes, certainly. I need to load them into simh and convert them into an ascii {address, value} file, both which I can do with .bin format stream files (basically the bytes from a paper tape) -brad -- ----------- Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting http://www.heeltoe.com 781-483-3101 From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 15 10:24:40 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:24:40 -0400 Subject: MAINDEC-08-D5FA? original tape and/or scan of listing? In-Reply-To: <4BC71E3B.2080802@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100415_101135_199450_262B4782) References: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> <4BC71E3B.2080802@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100415_101135_199450_262B4782) Message-ID: <4BC72FB8.40007@heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > I did a quick sweep through http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp-8 > and there are several copies. Are they all bad? > > ./From_Vince_Slyngstad/maindec/maindec-08-d5fa-pb > ./From_Vince_Slyngstad/maindec/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.od > ./papertapeImages/set1/MAINDEC08_D5FA_PB_COPY2.BIN > ./papertapeImages/set1/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.lab.txt > ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.bin > ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-8i-d5fa-pb.bin > At least 2 of the three are copies. I did not check all 3 - I will now. -brad -- ----------- Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting http://www.heeltoe.com 781-483-3101 From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 15 10:37:25 2010 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:37:25 -0400 Subject: MAINDEC-08-D5FA? original tape and/or scan of listing? In-Reply-To: <4BC71E78.5020802@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100415_101302_407321_D333A8A4) References: <4BC700C6.8070003@heeltoe.com> <4BC71E78.5020802@bitsavers.org> (sfid-20100415_101302_407321_D333A8A4) Message-ID: <4BC732B5.8060600@heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/15/10 5:04 AM, Brad Parker wrote: >> The archived copies of the paper tape have a checksum error. > > I did a quick sweep through > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp-8 and there > are several copies. Are they all bad? > > ./From_Vince_Slyngstad/maindec/maindec-08-d5fa-pb > ./papertapeImages/set1/MAINDEC08_D5FA_PB_COPY2.BIN > ./papertapeImages/set1/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.lab.txt > ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.bin > ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-8i-d5fa-pb.bin Ok, I lied. Only MAINDEC08_D5FA_PB_COPY2.BIN is broken. ./From_Vince_Slyngstad/maindec/maindec-08-d5fa-pb ok, same as #3 ./papertapeImages/set1/MAINDEC08_D5FA_PB_COPY2.BIN bad ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-08-d5fa-pb.bin ok, same as #1 ./papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/maindec-8i-d5fa-pb.bin ok, bigger than 1 & 3 -rw-r--r-- 1 brad brad 7535 2010-04-15 11:30 maindec-08-d5fa-pb.bin.mem -rw-r--r-- 1 brad brad 6646 2010-04-15 11:30 MAINDEC08_D5FA_PB_COPY2.BIN.mem -rw-r--r-- 1 brad brad 7535 2010-04-15 11:30 maindec-08-d5fa-pb.mem -rw-r--r-- 1 brad brad 13640 2010-04-15 11:30 maindec-8i-d5fa-pb.bin.mem Apparently maindec-8i-d5fa is not the same as maindec-08-d5fa-pb but it does appear maindec-08-d5fa-pb is ok. Any chance there is a hard copy of the source? That would be very helpful. sorry for the confusion. -brad -- ----------- Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting http://www.heeltoe.com 781-483-3101 From ray at arachelian.com Thu Apr 15 11:25:00 2010 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:25:00 -0400 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com><201004111834.o3BIYOfI011232@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><251201cadb38$07b38ee0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B4697C@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4BC73DDC.2070500@arachelian.com> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > And you leave them some years without turning on, the heads glue to > the disk surface and bye bye. Would it help to store them vertically instead? > > What about memory cards? CFs are cheap and IDE interfaces may be > avaiable for years to come :oO > No idea. Aren't they based on storing a charge, the way a capacitor does? This page claims 10 years... http://fixunix.com/hardware/8918-ot-flash-memory-longevity.html "Manufacturer's data sheets usually claim 10 years. Bits will rot one-by-one and NAND-FLASH has ECC codes to compensate." Yup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory : "can store more than one bit per cell by choosing between multiple levels of electrical charge to apply to the floating gates of its cells." So MLC should die quicker than SLC, though it can store more. Perhaps taking them out once in a while and copying their data to newer media every 3-5 years is a good idea. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 15 11:58:39 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 09:58:39 -0700 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC73DDC.2070500@arachelian.com> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara>, <4BC73DDC.2070500@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4BC6E34F.25228.2F91CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Apr 2010 at 12:25, Ray Arachelian wrote: > This page claims 10 years... > http://fixunix.com/hardware/8918-ot-flash-memory-longevity.html I was going to suggest 45 RPM vinyl discs, but the CD-R kept in a dust-tight envelope out of the light may well be as good as one can get for a substantial volume of data. I've made the mistake of filing manufacturers' FAXes printed on thermal paper without first copying them, thinking that surely such stuff would last more than a decade or two. Big mistake--I should have invested in a plain-paper FAX machine. I've also got some blueline prints that are equally illegible. Right now, the electronic medium with any density with the longest proven lifespan for me is the 8" floppy. Tape (even 1/2" 9-track tape) has a mixed track record. All the best, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 15 12:06:05 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:06:05 -0500 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC73DDC.2070500@arachelian.com> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> <201004111834.o3BIYOfI011232@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <251201cadb38$07b38ee0$0132a8c0@Alexandre> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B4697C@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> <4BC73DDC.2070500@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <201004151706.o3FH6EJ1016054@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:25 AM 4/15/2010, Ray Arachelian wrote: >So MLC should die quicker than SLC, though it can store more. >Perhaps taking them out once in a while and copying their data to newer >media every 3-5 years is a good idea. What has to be done to a flash drive in order for it to refresh the charge? Just a few seconds of power? They need so little, and USB connectors are easy to find... One could have an array of 4 or 8 gig thumb drives connected to a power supply that only turned itself on every few months. Is the same true for a solid state disk drive with a greater capacity? Just power it up to refresh the stored memory? - John From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 12:17:38 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:17:38 -0400 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC6E34F.25228.2F91CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara>, <4BC73DDC.2070500@arachelian.com> <4BC6E34F.25228.2F91CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BC74A32.1040304@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> This page claims 10 years... >> http://fixunix.com/hardware/8918-ot-flash-memory-longevity.html > > I was going to suggest 45 RPM vinyl discs, but the CD-R kept in a > dust-tight envelope out of the light may well be as good as one can > get for a substantial volume of data. Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a decades-long data life warranty? Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 15 13:16:09 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 12:16:09 -0600 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC74A32.1040304@gmail.com> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara>, <4BC73DDC.2070500@arachelian.com> <4BC6E34F.25228.2F91CB@cclist.sydex.com> <4BC74A32.1040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC757E9.5080601@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a decades-long data life warranty? With computers ... Having a company last more than a decade is a lifetime. Did not Radio Shack have a lifetime warranty on tubes ( one year ). I just can't quite see you collecting on that ... Umm my BW needs a this part ... Sales-kid Umm we don't have any that color . > Peace... Sridhar > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 15 13:50:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 11:50:34 -0700 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC757E9.5080601@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BC74A32.1040304@gmail.com>, <4BC757E9.5080601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4BC6FD8A.27985.960517@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Apr 2010 at 12:16, Ben wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a decades-long data life warranty? > > With computers ... Having a company last more than a decade is a > lifetime. Did not Radio Shack have a lifetime warranty on tubes ( one > year ). I just can't quite see you collecting on that ... Umm my BW > needs a this part ... Sales-kid Umm we don't have any player> that color . Mitsui spun off the CD-R operation as MAM-A: http://www.mam-a.com/ They claim 329 years on the stability of their formulation. I suspect that other aspects of CD construction will degrade before that time however. FWIW, we do use the MAM-A CD-Rs. I'm still trying to collect on the 3M silicone caulk that was warranted for 50 years, but lasted only 20 on my house. Obviously, such warranties are limited to replacement of the original disc (or caulk), as long as it's still manufactured. I can't see getting a replacement CD-R in 328 years... --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 13:45:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 19:45:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: from "Glen Slick" at Apr 14, 10 01:51:07 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > 2) The later version of the OS ROM module has a space for an option ROM > > PCB. It seems like this would be trivial to recreate (schematics of the > > ROM Mmodule, inclding the pinouts of the option board connectors are > > certainly in 'my' Integral schematics). If enough people are interesd, > > it might be worth laying out a PCB... > > > > I had an OS ROM module with BASIC in ROM on the daughter card. I no > longer have an Integral. Would it be any easier or more difficult to > create a whole new ROM module board vs. creating a daughter card to > fit an existing ROM module board? I suppose you might not have space > to fit all of the ROMs on a single board if you wanted to use through > hole components. I think it would be easier/better to make the daughterboard. I can think of several reasons for this : It's what HP originally designed (and I prefer to keep machines as original as possible unless there are very good reasons not to do so) The ROM module connector carries signals for 4 banks of 128K*16 bit ROMs (IIRC). That is 17 address lines, 16 data lines and 4 chip selects. The OS ROM PCB (at least the System V one) carreis 4 ROMs, each 128*8 bits, using 2 of the chip selects and the optional daughter board carries the other 4 ROms using the other 2 chip selects. Yes it would be trivial to re-encode the chip-selects back to 2 mroe address lines, but why bother? I don;t know what the largest easyily-obtainable EPROM is now. The OS ROM PCB connects to the rest of the machine by having 2 rows of plated-through holes which are then gold plated and which fit over pins on the Logic A PCB. Making this would be impossible at home, and it may be non-trivial to get it done commercially and have it relable after any insertions/removeals. The option board connects to the OS ROM PCB by a pair of header connectors that would be easy to obtain and solder to the PCB. You would have to copy the OS into the new ROMs if you made an all-in-one PCB. I don't know about copyright issues here. And you'd have to copy the OS into every ROM set you wanted to use (rather than having several daughterboasrds which you could just fit into the OS module if you wanted to change the option ROMs. The option PCB was just ROMs, nothing else. I see no reason not to keep it like that. > When I still had my Integral I was thinking it would be interesting if > someone could create a new ROM board for the expansion slots that > could be loaded with the contents of the Software Development ROM > module. The scheamtics of the HP EPROM PCB are available. IIRC, it's just simple logic (address decoders, buffers) and could easilty be reproducted. The other one worht reproducing would be the serial PCB which is again very simple. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 13:47:53 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 19:47:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 14, 10 09:52:13 pm Message-ID: > Well, there might have been an easier way of finding the short, but this > worked fine. I replaced the cap, patched everything up and fired it up. > Purrs like a kitten :-). All the voltages look correct, nothing is Excellant... It's when it meows like an angry tomcat that you have to worry ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 14:36:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:36:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 15, 10 11:05:14 am Message-ID: > Yep, HP made 2 ROM version a version 1.0 which was based on BSD III > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3299632917/in/set-72157623014583339/ > And they made a HP-UX 5.0 which was based on BSD V, the most usefull > version. > The system V is sold as update for the HP-UX 1.0. > I'm not sure if it's sold much but the most Integrals I know of are running > the HP-UX 5.0 version. FWWI, both my Integrals are running 5.0. >From what I've read, the HPUC 1.0 module was very different inside. It was 2 PCBs (presumably with lower-capacity EPROMs) and they connected using different connectors to the OS->option board connectors in the later module. The option board could (obvisouly) only be used with the HPUX 5.0 module I don't know if the ROM PCB that fits in an expansion slot had different contets for the 2 OS versions. It may well not have done. This PCB appears ad a read-only disk to HPUX, and since (AFAIK) the disk-based software ran on both versions of the OS< the ROM software may well have done too. Certainly the physical PCB, buffers, decode logic, etc would be the same. And anothe question : The service manual refers to a PSU test tool. This appears to eb some kind of dummy load device. I don't suppose anyone has one.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 15 15:04:09 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 21:04:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC6FD8A.27985.960517@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 15, 10 11:50:34 am Message-ID: > I'm still trying to collect on the 3M silicone caulk that was > warranted for 50 years, but lasted only 20 on my house. Obviously, > such warranties are limited to replacement of the original disc (or > caulk), as long as it's still manufactured. I can't see getting a > replacement CD-R in 328 years... I've never forgiven Tektronix for not hnouring the 'lifetime warranty' o ntheir transformers. Yes, I have had an EHT transformer break down, and Tekky would do nothign about it. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 15:05:37 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 21:05:37 +0100 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <4BC6E34F.25228.2F91CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com> <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara> <4BC73DDC.2070500@arachelian.com> <4BC6E34F.25228.2F91CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 5:58 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've made the mistake of filing manufacturers' FAXes printed on > thermal paper without first copying them, thinking that surely such > stuff would last more than a decade or two. ?Big mistake--I should > have invested in a plain-paper FAX machine. ?I've also got some > blueline prints that are equally illegible. A lot of plain-paper faxes use inkjets. Inkjets /per se/ aren't bad for longevity, it's the ink that's the issue. There are 2 types of ink, using either dyes (liquid colourants, possibly soluble) or pigments (solid colourants in a suspension of fine particles.) Dye-based inks tend to fade. They don't always even need light to do it; age can be enough. Pigment-based inks deposit particles into the matrix of the paper as they dry and tend to be far more robust. I've also seen clapped-out or badly-adjusted laser printers that failed to properly melt and bond the toner onto the paper, where with age the print simply brushes off the surface of the page. Print longevity is a tricksy issue. This is one of the best articles I've seen on it: http://www.trustedreviews.com/printers/review/2007/04/21/The-Inkjet-Investigation/p1 http://www.trustedreviews.com/printers/review/2007/08/12/The-Inkjet-Investigation-Part-2/p1 http://www.trustedreviews.com/printers/review/2008/04/29/The-Inkjet-Investigation-Part-3/p1 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 15 15:12:57 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 13:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Warranty (Was: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100415131111.H26834@shell.lmi.net> . . . and WHEN the CD-R goes blank, they will replace it with a new blank CD-R. Any such warranties are for the media, not for your data. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 15 15:25:54 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 21:25:54 +0100 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <028b01cadbdf$c612a0e0$0200a8c0@portajara>, <4BC73DDC.2070500@arachelian.com><4BC6E34F.25228.2F91CB@cclist.sydex.com> <4BC74A32.1040304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <005d01cadce0$48a10e60$19fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 6:17 PM Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info? > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> This page claims 10 years... > >> http://fixunix.com/hardware/8918-ot-flash-memory-longevity.html > > > > I was going to suggest 45 RPM vinyl discs, but the CD-R kept in a > > dust-tight envelope out of the light may well be as good as one can > > get for a substantial volume of data. > > Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a decades-long data life warranty? > > Peace... Sridhar How would that help if the disc is destroyed, warped or covered in gunk? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 15 15:34:29 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 21:34:29 +0100 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BC74A32.1040304@gmail.com>, <4BC757E9.5080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BC6FD8A.27985.960517@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <006101cadce0$5971b690$19fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Use mini CDR for equipment info? > On 15 Apr 2010 at 12:16, Ben wrote: > > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > > > Don't Mitsui Gold CD-Rs come with a decades-long data life warranty? > > > > With computers ... Having a company last more than a decade is a > > lifetime. Did not Radio Shack have a lifetime warranty on tubes ( one > > year ). I just can't quite see you collecting on that ... Umm my BW > > needs a this part ... Sales-kid Umm we don't have any > player> that color . > > Mitsui spun off the CD-R operation as MAM-A: > > http://www.mam-a.com/ > > They claim 329 years on the stability of their formulation. I > suspect that other aspects of CD construction will degrade before > that time however. > > FWIW, we do use the MAM-A CD-Rs. > > I'm still trying to collect on the 3M silicone caulk that was > warranted for 50 years, but lasted only 20 on my house. Obviously, > such warranties are limited to replacement of the original disc (or > caulk), as long as it's still manufactured. I can't see getting a > replacement CD-R in 328 years... > > --Chuck > ...or 2 years, if the hole Planet X thing is 100% real. (Planet X is, whether it actually colllides with the Earth I don't know...) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Apr 15 16:25:08 2010 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:25:08 -0400 Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4BC78434.7010005@attglobal.net> dwight elvey wrote: > > I have a none destructive method of locating such shorts. It requires > > a bench power supply and a good DVM. > > You set the supply on a low voltage and current limit at about 2 amps. > > Place the outputs of the supply from end to far end of the 12V rail > > ( not through the short ). > This is a great system Dwight. The only problem I have with it is the requirement for a five digit DVM, and the fact that after you find the short, you need to fix it. This can be time-consuming. My solution uses much the same procedure, except that I use an ARC welder and connect that up. With all of that current available, I don't need to diddle around looking for the short -- the short gets vaporized. So not only will I find the short (by the flash) but the repair is done at the same time. This procedure never fails and can be a real time-saver. Barry p.s. Please note that I'm kidding! I don't post very often but I really do enjoy reading what you're all working on. I love the old kit (particularly DEC stuff) and there's always lots to read about here. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 15 16:25:27 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:25:27 -0400 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. Message-ID: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. I would like to get something for the machines, but mostly want to make sure that the stuff doesn't get scrapped. Everything is assumed to work, but I have no guarantees that it does, and it hasn't been turned on in quite a while, but it has been stored in a climate-controlled warehouse. I'm open to some trades, and negotiable on prices for most stuff. I'm not willing to ship anything myself, but may be willing to drop it off somewhere to be shipped - I mostly don't have time to pack this stuff. Email me for more info on any of this stuff. For the most part, this stuff needs to be gone by May 14th- when I leave for Dayton Hamvention. I may be able to bring smaller (desktop box) stuff with me, but larger stuff I won't be able to transport to the show with everything else I'm bringing. Some of the stuff will start disappearing at the end of next week via scrap or eBay if I don't hear anything by then. + VAX 8700 w/ TU-81+ and SA482. Haven't had a chance to power up, and will keep this if I don't get a good offer. Want around $500 for it. + DG Nova 2 w/ PERTEC 9-track tape drive and dual 8" floppy. Asking $750, this will go to eBay if I don't get any takers. + DG Nova 4. Have 3 or 4, some missing the front-panel. 3rd party Disk/QIC tape rackmount box that goes with them. + BA-11 10.5" tall UNIBUS expansion boxes. $25 each + SGI Onyx prototype machine. The same size and chassis as a Challenge XL. $100 + PDP-11/23 w/RL02s in corporate cab. $200 + RM-02 drives. I have 4, want to keep at least one. Never had much luck getting them to work with my RH-11 on my 11/84, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the drives themselves. $200 each + VAX 4000/200. I have two or 3 of these. $100 each + DEC CMR53. 2 of these. A pdp-11/53 system with some special communications cards in them. $100 each + AlphaServer 4100. $20 + Various VAXstation 3100s for whatever I can get for them + 4 tape drives from IBM 3480-B22 tape units. I've considered saving this for spares, but I'm not sure I care enough. + IBM S/390 G5 coupling facility. I'd really like to find the replacement software for the SE to make it into a "standard" CPU, so that I can at least run Linux on it, but I'm not sure that's likely. $200. + Encore Mulitmax UNIX box. 32 x NS32332 processors and 128MB ram, and a 2nd rack with a 9-track tape drive and some 8" hard disks. $250. + General Automation SPC16/40 and 16/45. Missing the front panel for one of the two, have an I/O box, and PSUs. needs some repair work. One of the PSUs needs new capacitors. Will keep unless I can get $500 or so for the both of them. + HP 1000 E-series, I think. Two of these. $200 each? + IBM RS/6000 SP. I've got one frame with quad-375MHz POWER3-II thin nodes, and one high node (16GB ram, 16 x 375MHz). $200 + DEC VT240 terminals. Probably 10. $5 each + IBM 9343-C02 DASD box. I have someone interested, but haven't heard from them in a while, and am not sure how interested they really are ... I'd like to get $100 for it. + Two Amiga 2000 Video Toaster boxes. I may end up keeping one. $100. + Various IBM UNIX desktop systems, desktop VAXes, etc. $5 each. + Altos 8000 and 8600 systems. $10 each. + Tektronix 4010 terminal. $100. + Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600 1600-channel pulse-height analyzer. Powers up, but not tested much more than that. Looks cool, and has CORE memory inside. $50. Some pics I took a while ago: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ That's all I can recall for now. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Apr 15 16:28:56 2010 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 22:28:56 +0100 Subject: Classic computer brochures on eBay (UK) Message-ID: <4BC78518.6050507@gifford.co.uk> A friend of mine is selling a number of computer brochures and sales leaflets from the 1960s and 1970s. Looks like they'd be of interest to some collectors here. They're on eBay as follows: http://shop.ebay.co.uk/kate_elliott/m.html -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 15 16:40:11 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 14:40:11 -0700 Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: <4BC78434.7010005@attglobal.net> References: , , , <4BC78434.7010005@attglobal.net> Message-ID: > From: blkline at attglobal.net > > dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > I have a none destructive method of locating such shorts. It requires > > > > a bench power supply and a good DVM. > > > > You set the supply on a low voltage and current limit at about 2 amps. > > > > Place the outputs of the supply from end to far end of the 12V rail > > > > ( not through the short ). > > > > This is a great system Dwight. The only problem I have with it is the > requirement for a five digit DVM, and the fact that after you find the > short, you need to fix it. This can be time-consuming. > > My solution uses much the same procedure, except that I use an ARC > welder and connect that up. With all of that current available, I don't > need to diddle around looking for the short -- the short gets vaporized. > So not only will I find the short (by the flash) but the repair is done > at the same time. This procedure never fails and can be a real time-saver. > > Barry > > p.s. Please note that I'm kidding! I don't post very often but I > really do enjoy reading what you're all working on. I love the old kit > (particularly DEC stuff) and there's always lots to read about here. > > LOL! The beauty of my method is that it doesn't depend on the resistance of the shorting element. Often times the short will change every time you move the lead of an ohm meter. Other times, the short may be on the order of an ohm or more. My method still works because it doesn't depend on current through the short. To use an Ohm meter effectively requires a 4 point system. Most ESR meters that I've seen are not 4 point. If you don't have a 5 digit, you can crank the current up more. Most traces can handle 5+ amps or so. You do need 5 digits to find shorts on ground planes with my method. It just takes a lot of current to get a good voltage drop across the board. I do know several people that believe in using the ARC welder method. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 15 16:42:02 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 14:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Good grief, and I thought I had a lot of stuff I wanted to get rid of. Suddenly my garage doesn't look so bad! :-) Zane On Thu, 15 Apr 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. I would From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Apr 15 16:44:03 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 14:44:03 -0700 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Oh, if only I were closer (I'm in San Jose, CA)... that Encore Multimax system would be fun to have! Mark On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Good grief, and I thought I had a lot of stuff I wanted to get rid of. > Suddenly my garage doesn't look so bad! :-) > > Zane > > > > On Thu, 15 Apr 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >> This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. ? I would > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 15 17:39:59 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:39:59 -0400 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201004151839.59327.pat@computer-refuge.org> Looks like I forgot to mention, this is all in a commercial building in downtown Lafayette, IN, USA, zip 47901. Pat On Thursday 15 April 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. I > would like to get something for the machines, but mostly want to > make sure that the stuff doesn't get scrapped. Everything is > assumed to work, but I have no guarantees that it does, and it > hasn't been turned on in quite a while, but it has been stored in a > climate-controlled warehouse. I'm open to some trades, and > negotiable on prices for most stuff. I'm not willing to ship > anything myself, but may be willing to drop it off somewhere to be > shipped - I mostly don't have time to pack this stuff. Email me for > more info on any of this stuff. > > For the most part, this stuff needs to be gone by May 14th- when I > leave for Dayton Hamvention. I may be able to bring smaller > (desktop box) stuff with me, but larger stuff I won't be able to > transport to the show with everything else I'm bringing. Some of > the stuff will start disappearing at the end of next week via scrap > or eBay if I don't hear anything by then. > > + VAX 8700 w/ TU-81+ and SA482. Haven't had a chance to power up, > and will keep this if I don't get a good offer. Want around $500 > for it. + DG Nova 2 w/ PERTEC 9-track tape drive and dual 8" floppy. > Asking $750, this will go to eBay if I don't get any takers. + DG > Nova 4. Have 3 or 4, some missing the front-panel. 3rd party > Disk/QIC tape rackmount box that goes with them. > + BA-11 10.5" tall UNIBUS expansion boxes. $25 each > + SGI Onyx prototype machine. The same size and chassis as a > Challenge XL. $100 > + PDP-11/23 w/RL02s in corporate cab. $200 > + RM-02 drives. I have 4, want to keep at least one. Never had much > luck getting them to work with my RH-11 on my 11/84, but I don't > think there's anything wrong with the drives themselves. $200 each > + VAX 4000/200. I have two or 3 of these. $100 each > + DEC CMR53. 2 of these. A pdp-11/53 system with some special > communications cards in them. $100 each > + AlphaServer 4100. $20 > + Various VAXstation 3100s for whatever I can get for them > + 4 tape drives from IBM 3480-B22 tape units. I've considered saving > this for spares, but I'm not sure I care enough. > + IBM S/390 G5 coupling facility. I'd really like to find the > replacement software for the SE to make it into a "standard" CPU, so > that I can at least run Linux on it, but I'm not sure that's likely. > $200. > + Encore Mulitmax UNIX box. 32 x NS32332 processors and 128MB ram, > and a 2nd rack with a 9-track tape drive and some 8" hard disks. > $250. + General Automation SPC16/40 and 16/45. Missing the front > panel for one of the two, have an I/O box, and PSUs. needs some > repair work. One of the PSUs needs new capacitors. Will keep unless > I can get $500 or so for the both of them. > + HP 1000 E-series, I think. Two of these. $200 each? > + IBM RS/6000 SP. I've got one frame with quad-375MHz POWER3-II thin > nodes, and one high node (16GB ram, 16 x 375MHz). $200 > + DEC VT240 terminals. Probably 10. $5 each > + IBM 9343-C02 DASD box. I have someone interested, but haven't > heard from them in a while, and am not sure how interested they > really are ... I'd like to get $100 for it. > + Two Amiga 2000 Video Toaster boxes. I may end up keeping one. > $100. + Various IBM UNIX desktop systems, desktop VAXes, etc. $5 > each. + Altos 8000 and 8600 systems. $10 each. > + Tektronix 4010 terminal. $100. > + Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600 1600-channel pulse-height analyzer. > Powers up, but not tested much more than that. Looks cool, and has > CORE memory inside. $50. Some pics I took a while ago: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ > > That's all I can recall for now. > > Pat > -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Apr 15 19:34:40 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:34:40 -0400 Subject: New old products :) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FCD4B077CC748609D5986DBE08B71AD@andrewdesktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - > Listas > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:50 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: New old products :) > > >> Next time, use kicad, diptrace or something useful. Eagle sux. > > I'm not going to defend Eagle, but I'm unfamiliar with diptrace - what > > makes it better? > > Ethan, it is a matter of using the tool, I could say wonders about > diptrace, but I do believe nothing will be compared with you getting the > > tool and taking a look. > > > I use Eagle because it works on any computer I'm likely to be sitting > > and and because there are lots of examples and user-contributed parts. > > I'm not opposed to switching tools, but I'd rather not switch tools > > just to spend all my time creating libraries for classic computer > > components. If another tool has better libraries and is easier to > > use, then I'm all for it. > > I use Altium Designer, but I admit it is too expensive for (legal) > hobby > use :o) > > I do believe in Diptrace. But KICAD is getting better and better > everyday. More libraries and a very active development. Maybe you'll > want to > take a look at it :) [AJL>] Hi! I use KiCAD quite a bit and have designed several PCBs with it. It works fine and is completely unrestricted. I think it is a fine product and recommend it whole heartedly. It has improved dramatically over the last couple years. Also, all of the N8VEM PCBs are posted on the wiki in the KiCAD format. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Apr 15 19:34:40 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:34:40 -0400 Subject: Xedex Baby Blue CPU Plus ISA card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shawn Rutledge > Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 1:26 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Xedex Baby Blue CPU Plus ISA card > > I just found one of these in my pile if anyone wants it. [AJL>] Hi! I just obtained one of these boards and would like to get some documentation for it. Does anyone have documentation available they can scan, mail, or post somewhere? Any help much appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 16 00:06:40 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 07:06:40 +0200 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20100416050640.GA22069@Update.UU.SE> Where are you located? I'm to far away, but I would like to forward part of you message to the nekochan forum (SGI affectionados might like the Onyx). /P On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 05:25:27PM -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. I would > like to get something for the machines, but mostly want to make sure > that the stuff doesn't get scrapped. Everything is assumed to work, but > I have no guarantees that it does, and it hasn't been turned on in quite > a while, but it has been stored in a climate-controlled warehouse. I'm > open to some trades, and negotiable on prices for most stuff. I'm not > willing to ship anything myself, but may be willing to drop it off > somewhere to be shipped - I mostly don't have time to pack this stuff. > Email me for more info on any of this stuff. > > For the most part, this stuff needs to be gone by May 14th- when I leave > for Dayton Hamvention. I may be able to bring smaller (desktop box) > stuff with me, but larger stuff I won't be able to transport to the show > with everything else I'm bringing. Some of the stuff will start > disappearing at the end of next week via scrap or eBay if I don't hear > anything by then. > > + VAX 8700 w/ TU-81+ and SA482. Haven't had a chance to power up, and > will keep this if I don't get a good offer. Want around $500 for it. > + DG Nova 2 w/ PERTEC 9-track tape drive and dual 8" floppy. > Asking $750, this will go to eBay if I don't get any takers. > + DG Nova 4. Have 3 or 4, some missing the front-panel. 3rd party > Disk/QIC tape rackmount box that goes with them. > + BA-11 10.5" tall UNIBUS expansion boxes. $25 each > + SGI Onyx prototype machine. The same size and chassis as a Challenge > XL. $100 > + PDP-11/23 w/RL02s in corporate cab. $200 > + RM-02 drives. I have 4, want to keep at least one. Never had much > luck getting them to work with my RH-11 on my 11/84, but I don't think > there's anything wrong with the drives themselves. $200 each > + VAX 4000/200. I have two or 3 of these. $100 each > + DEC CMR53. 2 of these. A pdp-11/53 system with some special > communications cards in them. $100 each > + AlphaServer 4100. $20 > + Various VAXstation 3100s for whatever I can get for them > + 4 tape drives from IBM 3480-B22 tape units. I've considered saving > this for spares, but I'm not sure I care enough. > + IBM S/390 G5 coupling facility. I'd really like to find the > replacement software for the SE to make it into a "standard" CPU, so > that I can at least run Linux on it, but I'm not sure that's likely. > $200. > + Encore Mulitmax UNIX box. 32 x NS32332 processors and 128MB ram, and a > 2nd rack with a 9-track tape drive and some 8" hard disks. $250. > + General Automation SPC16/40 and 16/45. Missing the front panel for > one of the two, have an I/O box, and PSUs. needs some repair work. One > of the PSUs needs new capacitors. Will keep unless I can get $500 or so > for the both of them. > + HP 1000 E-series, I think. Two of these. $200 each? > + IBM RS/6000 SP. I've got one frame with quad-375MHz POWER3-II thin > nodes, and one high node (16GB ram, 16 x 375MHz). $200 > + DEC VT240 terminals. Probably 10. $5 each > + IBM 9343-C02 DASD box. I have someone interested, but haven't heard > from them in a while, and am not sure how interested they really are ... > I'd like to get $100 for it. > + Two Amiga 2000 Video Toaster boxes. I may end up keeping one. $100. > + Various IBM UNIX desktop systems, desktop VAXes, etc. $5 each. > + Altos 8000 and 8600 systems. $10 each. > + Tektronix 4010 terminal. $100. > + Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600 1600-channel pulse-height analyzer. > Powers up, but not tested much more than that. Looks cool, and has CORE > memory inside. $50. Some pics I took a while ago: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ > > That's all I can recall for now. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Apr 16 02:18:57 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 00:18:57 -0700 Subject: Long shot: Burroughs C3360 schematic? Message-ID: <4BC80F61.4090008@mail.msu.edu> Hey all - Picked up a Burroughs C3360 calculator this week. It's a programmable 4-function+square root and 10-register memory with a nice 16-nixie display. (See http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/bc3660.html) I cleaned it out, and it's working fine in calculator mode, but in programming mode the program step counter is usually (but not always) stuck at zero. Sometimes it increments properly for a few seconds after power-up. Seems like a fairly simple fault to trace down, if I had any idea where to begin... anyone have a schematic for this thing (or the Sharp Compet 363P, which this machine is a rebranded version of)? Hopefully the fault isn't in one of the LSI chips in this thing, I'm guessing those are going to be hard to find. Thanks as always, Josh From John.Lengeling at radisys.com Thu Apr 15 19:54:00 2010 From: John.Lengeling at radisys.com (John Lengeling) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:54:00 -0700 Subject: [rescue] Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Drool!!! I'm jonesing for a PDP running BSD... From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Apr 16 03:49:24 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:49:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: References: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> <4BC65098.1050005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 2010, Rik Bos wrote: > Yep, HP made 2 ROM version a version 1.0 which was based on BSD III > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3299632917/in/set-72157623014583339/ > And they made a HP-UX 5.0 which was based on BSD V, the most usefull Never heard of BSD III or BSD V (you know, BSD is not UNIX ;-) Christian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 06:14:33 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:14:33 -0300 Subject: New old products :) References: <1FCD4B077CC748609D5986DBE08B71AD@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <082701cadd57$23af3a60$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > Hi! I use KiCAD quite a bit and have designed several PCBs with it. It > works fine and is completely unrestricted. I think it is a fine product > and > recommend it whole heartedly. It has improved dramatically over the last > couple years. Also, all of the N8VEM PCBs are posted on the wiki in the > KiCAD format. Andrew, much of the people I know are switching to Kicad. Although I have access to an (original) license of Altium Designer, I'm thinking about knowing more about kicad. Hope it replaces eagle! :D From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Apr 16 08:13:47 2010 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:13:47 -0500 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151839.59327.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201004151839.59327.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <084F205E-B292-4519-ACB1-9758F302B501@lunar-tokyo.net> If nobody claims all of the RMs let me know. I have a KS10 that needs a disk. (You wouldn't happen to have an RM80 would you? ^_^) On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:39 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Looks like I forgot to mention, this is all in a commercial building > in > downtown Lafayette, IN, USA, zip 47901. > > Pat > > On Thursday 15 April 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. I >> would like to get something for the machines, but mostly want to >> make sure that the stuff doesn't get scrapped. Everything is >> assumed to work, but I have no guarantees that it does, and it >> hasn't been turned on in quite a while, but it has been stored in a >> climate-controlled warehouse. I'm open to some trades, and >> negotiable on prices for most stuff. I'm not willing to ship >> anything myself, but may be willing to drop it off somewhere to be >> shipped - I mostly don't have time to pack this stuff. Email me for >> more info on any of this stuff. >> >> For the most part, this stuff needs to be gone by May 14th- when I >> leave for Dayton Hamvention. I may be able to bring smaller >> (desktop box) stuff with me, but larger stuff I won't be able to >> transport to the show with everything else I'm bringing. Some of >> the stuff will start disappearing at the end of next week via scrap >> or eBay if I don't hear anything by then. >> >> + VAX 8700 w/ TU-81+ and SA482. Haven't had a chance to power up, >> and will keep this if I don't get a good offer. Want around $500 >> for it. + DG Nova 2 w/ PERTEC 9-track tape drive and dual 8" floppy. >> Asking $750, this will go to eBay if I don't get any takers. + DG >> Nova 4. Have 3 or 4, some missing the front-panel. 3rd party >> Disk/QIC tape rackmount box that goes with them. >> + BA-11 10.5" tall UNIBUS expansion boxes. $25 each >> + SGI Onyx prototype machine. The same size and chassis as a >> Challenge XL. $100 >> + PDP-11/23 w/RL02s in corporate cab. $200 >> + RM-02 drives. I have 4, want to keep at least one. Never had much >> luck getting them to work with my RH-11 on my 11/84, but I don't >> think there's anything wrong with the drives themselves. $200 each >> + VAX 4000/200. I have two or 3 of these. $100 each >> + DEC CMR53. 2 of these. A pdp-11/53 system with some special >> communications cards in them. $100 each >> + AlphaServer 4100. $20 >> + Various VAXstation 3100s for whatever I can get for them >> + 4 tape drives from IBM 3480-B22 tape units. I've considered saving >> this for spares, but I'm not sure I care enough. >> + IBM S/390 G5 coupling facility. I'd really like to find the >> replacement software for the SE to make it into a "standard" CPU, so >> that I can at least run Linux on it, but I'm not sure that's likely. >> $200. >> + Encore Mulitmax UNIX box. 32 x NS32332 processors and 128MB ram, >> and a 2nd rack with a 9-track tape drive and some 8" hard disks. >> $250. + General Automation SPC16/40 and 16/45. Missing the front >> panel for one of the two, have an I/O box, and PSUs. needs some >> repair work. One of the PSUs needs new capacitors. Will keep unless >> I can get $500 or so for the both of them. >> + HP 1000 E-series, I think. Two of these. $200 each? >> + IBM RS/6000 SP. I've got one frame with quad-375MHz POWER3-II thin >> nodes, and one high node (16GB ram, 16 x 375MHz). $200 >> + DEC VT240 terminals. Probably 10. $5 each >> + IBM 9343-C02 DASD box. I have someone interested, but haven't >> heard from them in a while, and am not sure how interested they >> really are ... I'd like to get $100 for it. >> + Two Amiga 2000 Video Toaster boxes. I may end up keeping one. >> $100. + Various IBM UNIX desktop systems, desktop VAXes, etc. $5 >> each. + Altos 8000 and 8600 systems. $10 each. >> + Tektronix 4010 terminal. $100. >> + Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600 1600-channel pulse-height analyzer. >> Powers up, but not tested much more than that. Looks cool, and has >> CORE memory inside. $50. Some pics I took a while ago: >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ >> >> That's all I can recall for now. >> >> Pat >> > > > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Apr 16 08:17:12 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:17:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: interested - Tek 4010...Re: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <684751791.16655071271423832063.JavaMail.root@sz0133a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > + Tektronix 4010 terminal. $100. Hi Pat, I'm interested in the Tektronix terminal, is this still available ? I realize it's heavy, but is there any chance of shipping it ? I'm in Pittsburgh, it's about 850mi R/T for me, so it might be still cheaper via Ground shipping than buying gas, which is about $120 for me as I don't have a compact car :) Otherwise I can pay you now and arrange a pickup date. thanks ! =Dan --http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 16 09:01:11 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 10:01:11 -0400 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201004161001.11354.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 15 April 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. Ok, so the Tek 4010 and RM02 drives have been claimed many times over, so people could stop asking me about them now. :) I'm trying to figure out what to do here to make it "fair" with these. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 16 09:12:04 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 07:12:04 -0700 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004161001.11354.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201004161001.11354.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: At 10:01 AM -0400 4/16/10, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Thursday 15 April 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. > >Ok, so the Tek 4010 and RM02 drives have been claimed many times over, >so people could stop asking me about them now. :) I'm trying to figure >out what to do here to make it "fair" with these. Whoever writes the best 1000 word essay on why they should be allowed to buy them? Or how about a cage match? :-) Maybe the most practical might be to make it whoever physically shows up first! I should probably point out that I'm not in the running. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 09:44:08 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:44:08 -0300 Subject: Tektronix 3001GPX - pods needed References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org><201004161001.11354.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <013301cadd75$759658e0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Who knows? Buying surplus maybe you see one of these around and help a good friend :o) I'm in desesperate need of a set of 4 P6490 pads for the 3001/3002 GPX logic analyzers. And, if you have a spare, the keyboard and internal HDD unit :) Thanks Alexandre :) From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 16 10:54:30 2010 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 17:54:30 +0200 Subject: Dec RV20 docs Message-ID: <6c66dfa3c885f9f66410ad82803e1c28.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> For the cost of shipping, a set of docs for the Dec RV20 Optical subsystem. Included is EK-ORV20-IN-002 : Installation Guide (stapled spine) EK-ORV20-OM-002 : Owners Manual (stapled spine) EK-ORV20-SV-002 : Service Guide (spiral bound, but now loose leaf) Item in in the Netherlands, weight is approx 0,6 Kg Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Apr 16 11:43:26 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:43:26 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 3001GPX - pods needed In-Reply-To: <013301cadd75$759658e0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org><201004161001.11354.pat@computer-refuge.org>, , <013301cadd75$759658e0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: Hi Ebay #380217594387 may be of interest. Dwight > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Tektronix 3001GPX - pods needed > Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:44:08 -0300 > > > Who knows? Buying surplus maybe you see one of these around and help a > good friend :o) > > I'm in desesperate need of a set of 4 P6490 pads for the 3001/3002 GPX > logic analyzers. And, if you have a spare, the keyboard and internal HDD > unit :) > > Thanks > Alexandre :) > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 12:01:59 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:01:59 -0300 Subject: Tektronix 3001GPX - pods needed References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org><201004161001.11354.pat@computer-refuge.org>, , <013301cadd75$759658e0$0101a8c0@Alexandre> Message-ID: <02fb01cadd86$dc941990$0101a8c0@Alexandre> > Ebay #380217594387 may be of interest. Thanks Dwight, but these are the wires that comes from the pods, and not the pods itselves (did I spelled right?)...The P6490 pods are almost impossible to be found :( I don't know why, EVERY Tek 3001GPX you can find on ebay is missing the probes. You can find very complete systems with keyboard, HD and expansions, but NEVER with the pods. Oh my :( From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 12:11:32 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:11:32 +0100 Subject: Anyone want some free LEDs? Message-ID: Anyone need a handful? I have several sets of dead bicycle lights that I want to get rid of, which have something like half a dozen to a dozen each of greens, reds and whites. Happy to post anywhere for cost of postage alone, if anyone has any use for them... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 16 12:39:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:39:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Warranty (Was: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <20100415131111.H26834@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 15, 10 01:12:57 pm Message-ID: > > . . . and WHEN the CD-R goes blank, > they will replace it with a new blank CD-R. > > Any such warranties are for the media, not for your data. Which makes them totally useless, of course. Oddly, I find the data recorded on a disk to be much more valuable than the disk itself. The ohter trick that's pulled is that the small print says 'provided the furomat is still in current use' or something like that. And the manufactuerers hope that years in the future, it won't be. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 16 13:10:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 19:10:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: <4BC78434.7010005@attglobal.net> from "Barry L. Kline" at Apr 15, 10 05:25:08 pm Message-ID: > My solution uses much the same procedure, except that I use an ARC > welder and connect that up. With all of that current available, I don't > need to diddle around looking for the short -- the short gets vaporized. > So not only will I find the short (by the flash) but the repair is done > at the same time. This procedure never fails and can be a real time-saver. > > Barry > > p.s. Please note that I'm kidding! I don't post very often but I Just in acase somebody takes this seriously, I should point out that the big problem is that ther connector that vaporuises is the wwakest part of the ciercuit which is not necessarily the short you want to remove. And of course when the connection does open you get thefull voltage of the arc welder across it. This is high enough to do a lot of damage... -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Apr 16 14:01:13 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 20:01:13 +0100 Subject: Use mini CDR for equipment info? In-Reply-To: <006101cadce0$5971b690$19fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <4BC1B2B2.32552.ACD6A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BC74A32.1040304@gmail.com>, <4BC757E9.5080601@jetnet.ab.ca> <4BC6FD8A.27985.960517@cclist.sydex.com> <006101cadce0$5971b690$19fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BC8B3F9.6060904@philpem.me.uk> Andrew Burton wrote: > ...or 2 years, if the hole Planet X thing is 100% real. (Planet X is, > whether it actually colllides with the Earth I don't know...) I'd be more worried about 2038... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 16 14:03:40 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:03:40 -0600 Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC8B48C.5060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Just in acase somebody takes this seriously, I should point out that the > big problem is that ther connector that vaporuises is the wwakest part of > the ciercuit which is not necessarily the short you want to remove. > > And of course when the connection does open you get thefull voltage of > the arc welder across it. This is high enough to do a lot of damage... That is why you use Condensor Discharge. :) > -tony > From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 23:14:07 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 21:14:07 -0700 Subject: UCSD p-System hoard to disperse In-Reply-To: References: <201004021730.o32HUlkS077931@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: I haven't heard anything either... what's going on with the collection? Mark On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:28 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi John, > > ?I sent you an off list e-mail last week and haven't heard back yet. Is the > equipment still available? > > Thanks, Paul > > On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 12:30 PM, John Foust wrote: > >> >> I've been contacted by a former software developer with extensive >> experience >> with the UCSD p-System on several platforms. ?He'd like to dispose of most >> of his equipment and documentation. >> >> I'd like to help him find a new home for it all. ?I'm not quite sure >> how to do that, but it might depend on who else is interested. >> Please contact me if you are. ?He is located in southern Illinois, USA. >> I am located in southern Wisconsin, about six hours away. >> >> I'd like his spare Terak 8510 system and a Cipher 9 track. >> >> There are two PDQ-3 systems. ?I am tempted to take one, as it is closely >> related to the Terak. ?These are LSI-11 with Western Digital microcode to >> run the p-System directly. ?They include 10 or 20 meg hard drives. ?They >> are circa 1982. ?I think they're rare. ?The only mention I find is on >> a UC-Irvine web page, although I've emailed with someone who worked at >> the company that made them (Advanced Computer Design?). ?One of the hard >> drives might contain some source code from ACD. ?He used these for software >> development. ?I've found references that say these systems were used >> to develop in Modula 2 and FORTRAN. ?They competed with the Sage. >> >> There's an Atari 1040 ST running the p-System. >> >> There are four or five 68000-based multitasking multiuser Pinnacle Systems >> (later Logic Process) systems. ?These drove 8 to 16 users on Wyse 50 >> terminals. ?They are circa 1983. ?One is the bigger unit with more >> horsepower and an internal tape drive. >> >> There's two Corvus Omninet drives, with various junction boxes, cabling >> and interface cards - perhaps for PC, Apple II and maybe Q-bus. >> >> There's a bunch of p-System books, newsletters, etc. as well as >> software. ?He was a USUS member. >> >> There's a VT 220 and several Wyse 50 terminals. ?I might want the 220. >> >> It sounds like there's lots of software going all the way back to a >> copy of Wirth's CDC compiler. >> >> - John >> >> > From bqt at softjar.se Fri Apr 16 06:10:50 2010 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:10:50 +0200 Subject: DEC RK05F videos and pictures - running it naked! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BC845BA.3080201@softjar.se> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> Oh, that bad RK8E controller just confronts me with "Data break error" :-( > > IIRC a ;'data break' is a bit like DMA. I do haev the prints and some > technical desription, so I could help you debug this sometime... Just for reference: databreak is exactly just DMA. It's just another name for it. The "fun" part of the PDP-8 is that you have 1-cycle data break and 3-cycle data break devices... :-) You never see the 3-cycle version on any modern DMA devices... Johnny From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 06:12:06 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 07:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xedex Baby Blue CPU Plus ISA card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Apr 2010, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> I just found one of these in my pile if anyone wants it. > [AJL>] > > > Hi! I just obtained one of these boards and would like to get some > documentation for it. Does anyone have documentation available they can > scan, mail, or post somewhere? I have a photocopy of the docs. It's about 40 pages and I don't have a scanner with automatic feed, so it may be a while before I can get to it. Feel free to bug me in private e-mail if you've not heard anything in a week or so. I will upload to bitsavers when complete. Steve -- From robert.herget at gmail.com Fri Apr 16 15:27:57 2010 From: robert.herget at gmail.com (Robert Herget) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 15:27:57 -0500 Subject: SGI ONYX Protoytpy Message-ID: Hi, I saw your add of things you are looking to get rid of. I am very interested in your ONXY prototype. Can you tell me what the specs are? Do you have any photos of it? Robert Herget From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 17 03:11:45 2010 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 01:11:45 -0700 Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: References: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> <4BC65098.1050005@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BC96D41.9030302@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Is there already a dump of the Software Engineering ROM Module (82987A)? Al Kossow wrote: > Would there have been two different versions for the SysIII > and SysV versions of HP-UX? Rik Bos wrote: > Yep, HP made 2 ROM version a version 1.0 which was based on BSD III > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3299632917/in/set-72157623014583339/ > And they made a HP-UX 5.0 which was based on BSD V, the most usefull > version. The question wasn't whether the main ROM came in 1.0 (System III) and 5.0 (System V) versions (neither of which is BSD, though 5.0 contains some BSD-derived code, and 1.0 might as well). The question is whether the 82987A Software Engineering ROM came in two versions for use with the System III and System V main ROMs. Eric From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 17 13:54:32 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 20:54:32 +0200 Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: <4BC96D41.9030302@brouhaha.com> References: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> <4BC65098.1050005@bitsavers.org> <4BC96D41.9030302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <63409ECF66424BBCB909D67D1C705F3A@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Eric Smith > Verzonden: zaterdag 17 april 2010 10:12 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: HP Integral questions > > I wrote: > > Is there already a dump of the Software Engineering ROM > Module (82987A)? > > Al Kossow wrote: > > Would there have been two different versions for the > SysIII > and SysV versions of HP-UX? > > Rik Bos wrote: > > Yep, HP made 2 ROM version a version 1.0 which was based > on BSD III > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/3299632917/in/set-72157623 014583339/ > > And they made a HP-UX 5.0 which was based on BSD V, the > most usefull > version. > > The question wasn't whether the main ROM came in 1.0 (System > III) and 5.0 (System V) versions (neither of which is BSD, > though 5.0 contains some BSD-derived code, and 1.0 might as > well). The question is whether the 82987A Software > Engineering ROM came in two versions for use with the System > III and System V main ROMs. > > Eric No, there are some utils to compensate UX 1.0 for not being UX 5.0 mainly to run basic. From jhscheef at gmail.com Sat Apr 17 14:48:41 2010 From: jhscheef at gmail.com (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 15:48:41 -0400 Subject: OT: ACM insurance In-Reply-To: <4BBF27AE.21995.DA45FD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BBF27AE.21995.DA45FD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BCA1099.3050606@gmail.com> David, Welcome to the wonderful world of health insurance. You are about to learn why health care and health insurance reform was/remains so necessary. And I truly hope neither you nor your wife have anything that can be construed do be a pre-existing condition. Way back in the early nineties when I became an "independent" programmer/consultant, I bought insurnace thru ICCA (Indepentent Computer Consultants Association) but they soon became unaffordable. I then became a "group of one" and bought insurance thru the company that I set up to be my employer. About ten years ago the insurance agent with the best deal (for real coverage) sold me an individual policy with Anthem Blue Cross. This was pretty good until Anthem switched from a mutual insurance company (ie: owned by the policy holders) to a publicly traded company. Since then my rates have climbed every year. In six more months I get Social Security and I can't wait. Whatever you get, be sure to plan ahead. Once you have a pre-existing condition you are locked in and can't change even the type of policy within the same company. As the Healthcare Bill starts to take effect, this problem will be reduced or even eliminated but the rates for such policies are not limited unless your state has regulations. Good luck, Jim Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Apr 2010 at 12:50, David Griffith wrote: > > >> I'm wondering if anyone here has any experience buying health >> insurance through the ACM. My career has taken some very interesting >> twists and turns and it looks like I'll be running a consulting firm >> for a while. >> > > I can't speak for the ACM, but I do have experience with its sister > organization, the IEEE. At one time health coverage through them was > a pretty good deal, but then got no better and then much worse than > what my insurance agent could find. Same story for term life > insurance, BTW. > > If they're like the IEEE, the ACM probably just endorses some > privately-run insurance agency to handle this, not taking any active > interest in it themselves. Sort of like my IEEE credit card (no > longer says IEEE on it, just "Electrical Engineer") is issued by > Chase. > > --Chuck > > From wlsilva at sbcglobal.net Sat Apr 17 04:11:08 2010 From: wlsilva at sbcglobal.net (walter silva) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 02:11:08 -0700 Subject: Looking for a Tally model 420 paper tape punch. Message-ID: <0064A6E778024A5489D7D286124F9638@walter> If anyone can help me obtain a Tally model 420 paper tape punch I would be immensely grateful ! I am restoring a old telemetry console and the Tally puncher is missing. Once again, many thanks for any help/leads. Walter Silva wlsilva at sbcglobal.net From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Sat Apr 17 21:06:46 2010 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (paulrsm at buckeye-express.com) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 19:06:46 -0700 Subject: UCSD p-System hoard to disperse Message-ID: <20100417190646.533D540@resin06.mta.everyone.net> I, too, have not heard back from John. I am interested in the Atari ST and one of the Pinnacle systems. If the Pinnacle can run both UCSD Pascal and CP/M-68K then that would be a bonus. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Maumee, Ohio USA From brain at jbrain.com Sat Apr 17 21:11:16 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:11:16 -0500 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80, again, connectors In-Reply-To: <4B81A8C0.8030605@e-bbes.com> References: <4B81A8C0.8030605@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4BCA6A44.2030302@jbrain.com> On 2/21/2010 3:42 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > OK, another question : > a cheap source for the hp-ib, gpib connectors ? > What I found so far is in the $ 20 range. > (through hole, right angle, receptacle, ...) > > Cheers & Thanks http://www.l-com.com/productfamily.aspx?id=1243 $8.00 for RA through hole PCB Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Apr 17 23:01:57 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 21:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: vintage cardboard boxes Message-ID: Does anyone here have an interest in carboard boxes that once held S100 cards? I have a banker's box full of them free for shipping. One of them has "Cables for Golem" written on it by Jerry Pournelle. The cables were recently sold. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Apr 18 01:04:53 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 23:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMS Pyxis Board Message-ID: I have 3x5" circuit board from IMS International marked "PYXIS BD". On a narrow edge is a 50-pin header. On the rear are two edge slots that appear to mate with the connectors of an MFM drive. It's in an apparently unopened bag and visible at http://frotz.homeunix.org/images/pyxis/. Does anyone here know what it might be for? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 10:10:36 2010 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 10:10:36 -0500 Subject: OT: ACM insurance In-Reply-To: <4BCA1099.3050606@gmail.com> References: <4BBF27AE.21995.DA45FD@cclist.sydex.com> <4BCA1099.3050606@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 17, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Jim Scheef wrote: >Since then my rates have climbed every year. In six more > months I get Social Security and I can't wait. I bet they keep advancing the age so that you never get there. > Whatever you get, be sure to plan ahead. Once you have a pre-existing > condition you are locked in and can't change even the type of policy within > the same company. As the Healthcare Bill starts to take effect, this problem > will be reduced or even eliminated but the rates for such policies are not > limited unless your state has regulations. I think the bill will get us some temporary relief, but that's it. I think the rates will just continue to climb. It will turn into a social security style health insurance tax. The stock prices of all the health insurance companies went way up after they signed the bill. What does that tell you? brian From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 17 17:14:55 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 18:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? Message-ID: I found what purports to be a diskdef for cpmtools, but am not having any success at all. The file _appears_ to copy into the image and I can read it back out uncorrupted with cpmtools, but when I write it to a disk with Dave Dunfield's NST and boot it, the file is filled with E5s. I did note the diskdef is for 70 tracks (double-sided) and tried changing the track value to 35. No luck. I'm trying to move the Morrow HD format/test utility to a diskette that can be accessed from my N* CPM 2.2 boot diskette, but so far it's "Can't Get There from Here..". I'd try a comm program, but guess what I don't have on an N* diskette? :-). Steve -- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 10:30:46 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:30:46 -0400 Subject: OT: ACM insurance In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF27AE.21995.DA45FD@cclist.sydex.com> <4BCA1099.3050606@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The stock prices of all the health insurance companies went way up > after they signed the bill. ?What does that tell you? Let's kill this political thread before it starts, OK? This list has had more than a few moments of extreme OT-ness, and most of us can live with it, but talking politics is a whole new level. Let's not go there. -- Will From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Apr 18 10:42:51 2010 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:42:51 -0400 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <084F205E-B292-4519-ACB1-9758F302B501@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <201004151839.59327.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <084F205E-B292-4519-ACB1-9758F302B501@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: oooh a bit far to drive to pickup from toronto. has anyone heard back from him? I've asked for a few items, but they may be taken by now :( Dan. > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:39 PM, Patrick Finnegan refuge.org> wrote: > > > Looks like I forgot to mention, this is all in a commercial building > > in > > downtown Lafayette, IN, USA, zip 47901. > > > > Pat > > > > On Thursday 15 April 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. I > >> would like to get something for the machines, but mostly want to > >> make sure that the stuff doesn't get scrapped. Everything is > >> assumed to work, but I have no guarantees that it does, and it > >> hasn't been turned on in quite a while, but it has been stored in a > >> climate-controlled warehouse. I'm open to some trades, and > >> negotiable on prices for most stuff. I'm not willing to ship > >> anything myself, but may be willing to drop it off somewhere to be > >> shipped - I mostly don't have time to pack this stuff. Email me for > >> more info on any of this stuff. > >> > >> For the most part, this stuff needs to be gone by May 14th- when I > >> leave for Dayton Hamvention. I may be able to bring smaller > >> (desktop box) stuff with me, but larger stuff I won't be able to > >> transport to the show with everything else I'm bringing. Some of > >> the stuff will start disappearing at the end of next week via scrap > >> or eBay if I don't hear anything by then. > >> > >> + VAX 8700 w/ TU-81+ and SA482. Haven't had a chance to power up, > >> and will keep this if I don't get a good offer. Want around $500 > >> for it. + DG Nova 2 w/ PERTEC 9-track tape drive and dual 8" floppy. > >> Asking $750, this will go to eBay if I don't get any takers. + DG > >> Nova 4. Have 3 or 4, some missing the front-panel. 3rd party > >> Disk/QIC tape rackmount box that goes with them. > >> + BA-11 10.5" tall UNIBUS expansion boxes. $25 each > >> + SGI Onyx prototype machine. The same size and chassis as a > >> Challenge XL. $100 > >> + PDP-11/23 w/RL02s in corporate cab. $200 > >> + RM-02 drives. I have 4, want to keep at least one. Never had much > >> luck getting them to work with my RH-11 on my 11/84, but I don't > >> think there's anything wrong with the drives themselves. $200 each > >> + VAX 4000/200. I have two or 3 of these. $100 each > >> + DEC CMR53. 2 of these. A pdp-11/53 system with some special > >> communications cards in them. $100 each > >> + AlphaServer 4100. $20 > >> + Various VAXstation 3100s for whatever I can get for them > >> + 4 tape drives from IBM 3480-B22 tape units. I've considered saving > >> this for spares, but I'm not sure I care enough. > >> + IBM S/390 G5 coupling facility. I'd really like to find the > >> replacement software for the SE to make it into a "standard" CPU, so > >> that I can at least run Linux on it, but I'm not sure that's likely. > >> $200. > >> + Encore Mulitmax UNIX box. 32 x NS32332 processors and 128MB ram, > >> and a 2nd rack with a 9-track tape drive and some 8" hard disks. > >> $250. + General Automation SPC16/40 and 16/45. Missing the front > >> panel for one of the two, have an I/O box, and PSUs. needs some > >> repair work. One of the PSUs needs new capacitors. Will keep unless > >> I can get $500 or so for the both of them. > >> + HP 1000 E-series, I think. Two of these. $200 each? > >> + IBM RS/6000 SP. I've got one frame with quad-375MHz POWER3-II thin > >> nodes, and one high node (16GB ram, 16 x 375MHz). $200 > >> + DEC VT240 terminals. Probably 10. $5 each > >> + IBM 9343-C02 DASD box. I have someone interested, but haven't > >> heard from them in a while, and am not sure how interested they > >> really are ... I'd like to get $100 for it. > >> + Two Amiga 2000 Video Toaster boxes. I may end up keeping one. > >> $100. + Various IBM UNIX desktop systems, desktop VAXes, etc. $5 > >> each. + Altos 8000 and 8600 systems. $10 each. > >> + Tektronix 4010 terminal. $100. > >> + Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600 1600-channel pulse-height analyzer. > >> Powers up, but not tested much more than that. Looks cool, and has > >> CORE memory inside. $50. Some pics I took a while ago: > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ > >> > >> That's all I can recall for now. > >> > >> Pat > >> > > > > > > -- > > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail & Messenger. Get them on your phone now. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724463 From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 10:53:11 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:53:11 -0400 Subject: OT: ACM insurance In-Reply-To: References: <4BBF27AE.21995.DA45FD@cclist.sydex.com> <4BCA1099.3050606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BCB2AE7.9040506@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> The stock prices of all the health insurance companies went way up >> after they signed the bill. What does that tell you? > > Let's kill this political thread before it starts, OK? > > This list has had more than a few moments of extreme OT-ness, and most > of us can live with it, but talking politics is a whole new level. > Let's not go there. Seconded. Peace... Sridhar From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 11:21:45 2010 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:21:45 +0200 Subject: PDP-11 CAD System on Craigslist (Boston) Message-ID: http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/zip/1696634349.html * OFFER- working DEC PDP-11 CAD System w/accessories (Quincy) ------------------------------ Date: 2010-04-17, 12:11PM EDT Reply to: sale-kxyzt-1696634349 at craigslist.org ------------------------------ This is a working PDP-11/23+, in a BA-11 box. This is a fuly functional PDP-11 running RT-11, has bootable floppies and hard drive. The reason I have this is this system is the hardware basis for a CAD software package called Pro-Draft / Producer. by what became Baush & Lomb. Comes w/~40 8" floppies (yes, really!), detailed schematics of BA-11 box, and all Pro-Draft software and documentation. You can fire this up and do C, FORTRAN, and assembly programming, or CAD development, or have a very unusually shaped space heater. Please give this machine a new lease on life! *-- Stephane http://DECpicted.blogspot.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Apr 18 12:07:06 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 13:07:06 -0400 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> <084F205E-B292-4519-ACB1-9758F302B501@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <201004181307.07079.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm still here. For those I haven't responded to, I hope to go through them tonight. It looks like I'll need to make up a diagram or spreadsheet to track who wants/gets what. Pat On Sunday 18 April 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > oooh a bit far to drive to pickup from toronto. > > has anyone heard back from him? I've asked for a few items, but they > may be taken by now :( > > Dan. > > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 5:39 PM, Patrick Finnegan > > > refuge.org> wrote: > > > Looks like I forgot to mention, this is all in a commercial > > > building in > > > downtown Lafayette, IN, USA, zip 47901. > > > > > > Pat > > > > > > On Thursday 15 April 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > >> This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. I > > >> would like to get something for the machines, but mostly want to > > >> make sure that the stuff doesn't get scrapped. Everything is > > >> assumed to work, but I have no guarantees that it does, and it > > >> hasn't been turned on in quite a while, but it has been stored > > >> in a climate-controlled warehouse. I'm open to some trades, and > > >> negotiable on prices for most stuff. I'm not willing to ship > > >> anything myself, but may be willing to drop it off somewhere to > > >> be shipped - I mostly don't have time to pack this stuff. Email > > >> me for more info on any of this stuff. > > >> > > >> For the most part, this stuff needs to be gone by May 14th- when > > >> I leave for Dayton Hamvention. I may be able to bring smaller > > >> (desktop box) stuff with me, but larger stuff I won't be able to > > >> transport to the show with everything else I'm bringing. Some > > >> of the stuff will start disappearing at the end of next week via > > >> scrap or eBay if I don't hear anything by then. > > >> > > >> + VAX 8700 w/ TU-81+ and SA482. Haven't had a chance to power > > >> up, and will keep this if I don't get a good offer. Want around > > >> $500 for it. + DG Nova 2 w/ PERTEC 9-track tape drive and dual > > >> 8" floppy. Asking $750, this will go to eBay if I don't get any > > >> takers. + DG Nova 4. Have 3 or 4, some missing the front-panel. > > >> 3rd party Disk/QIC tape rackmount box that goes with them. > > >> + BA-11 10.5" tall UNIBUS expansion boxes. $25 each > > >> + SGI Onyx prototype machine. The same size and chassis as a > > >> Challenge XL. $100 > > >> + PDP-11/23 w/RL02s in corporate cab. $200 > > >> + RM-02 drives. I have 4, want to keep at least one. Never had > > >> much luck getting them to work with my RH-11 on my 11/84, but I > > >> don't think there's anything wrong with the drives themselves. > > >> $200 each + VAX 4000/200. I have two or 3 of these. $100 each > > >> + DEC CMR53. 2 of these. A pdp-11/53 system with some special > > >> communications cards in them. $100 each > > >> + AlphaServer 4100. $20 > > >> + Various VAXstation 3100s for whatever I can get for them > > >> + 4 tape drives from IBM 3480-B22 tape units. I've considered > > >> saving this for spares, but I'm not sure I care enough. > > >> + IBM S/390 G5 coupling facility. I'd really like to find the > > >> replacement software for the SE to make it into a "standard" > > >> CPU, so that I can at least run Linux on it, but I'm not sure > > >> that's likely. $200. > > >> + Encore Mulitmax UNIX box. 32 x NS32332 processors and 128MB > > >> ram, and a 2nd rack with a 9-track tape drive and some 8" hard > > >> disks. $250. + General Automation SPC16/40 and 16/45. Missing > > >> the front panel for one of the two, have an I/O box, and PSUs. > > >> needs some repair work. One of the PSUs needs new capacitors. > > >> Will keep unless I can get $500 or so for the both of them. > > >> + HP 1000 E-series, I think. Two of these. $200 each? > > >> + IBM RS/6000 SP. I've got one frame with quad-375MHz POWER3-II > > >> thin nodes, and one high node (16GB ram, 16 x 375MHz). $200 + > > >> DEC VT240 terminals. Probably 10. $5 each > > >> + IBM 9343-C02 DASD box. I have someone interested, but haven't > > >> heard from them in a while, and am not sure how interested they > > >> really are ... I'd like to get $100 for it. > > >> + Two Amiga 2000 Video Toaster boxes. I may end up keeping one. > > >> $100. + Various IBM UNIX desktop systems, desktop VAXes, etc. > > >> $5 each. + Altos 8000 and 8600 systems. $10 each. > > >> + Tektronix 4010 terminal. $100. > > >> + Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600 1600-channel pulse-height > > >> analyzer. Powers up, but not tested much more than that. Looks > > >> cool, and has CORE memory inside. $50. Some pics I took a > > >> while ago: > > >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ > > >> > > >> That's all I can recall for now. > > >> > > >> Pat > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail & Messenger. Get them on your phone now. > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9724463 > -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sun Apr 18 12:21:26 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 09:21:26 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 CAD System on Craigslist (Boston) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Too far away. Dammit. > -----Original Message----- > From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com > Sent: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:21:45 +0200 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11 CAD System on Craigslist (Boston) > > http://boston.craigslist.org/sob/zip/1696634349.html > > * OFFER- working > DEC > PDP-11 CAD System w/accessories (Quincy) > ------------------------------ > Date: 2010-04-17, 12:11PM EDT > Reply to: > sale-kxyzt-1696634349 at craigslist.org > > ------------------------------ > > This is a working PDP-11/23+, in a BA-11 box. This is a fuly functional > PDP-11 running RT-11, has bootable floppies and hard drive. The reason I > have this is this system is the hardware basis for a CAD software package > called Pro-Draft / Producer. by what became Baush & Lomb. > > Comes w/~40 8" floppies (yes, really!), detailed schematics of BA-11 box, > and all Pro-Draft software and documentation. You can fire this up and do > C, > FORTRAN, and assembly programming, or CAD development, or have a very > unusually shaped space heater. > > Please give this machine a new lease on life! > *-- > Stephane > http://DECpicted.blogspot.com From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Apr 18 12:24:14 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 13:24:14 -0400 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BCB403E.5090603@verizon.net> Have you considered using the serial line to a PC as terminal (I prefer Procomm or VTcom) and transfering an ascii file of a simple file transfer utility using PIP as in PIP foo.txt=con:? If you can pip text across you can pip a source for simple transfer utility and do it via serial line rather than trying to create disks. Allison Steven Hirsch wrote: > I found what purports to be a diskdef for cpmtools, but am not having > any success at all. The file _appears_ to copy into the image and I > can read it back out uncorrupted with cpmtools, but when I write it to > a disk with Dave Dunfield's NST and boot it, the file is filled with E5s. > > I did note the diskdef is for 70 tracks (double-sided) and tried > changing the track value to 35. No luck. > > I'm trying to move the Morrow HD format/test utility to a diskette > that can be accessed from my N* CPM 2.2 boot diskette, but so far it's > "Can't Get There from Here..". > > I'd try a comm program, but guess what I don't have on an N* diskette? > :-). > > Steve > > From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 18 12:27:36 2010 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:27:36 -0500 Subject: UCSD p-System hoard to disperse In-Reply-To: <20100417190646.533D540@resin06.mta.everyone.net> References: <20100417190646.533D540@resin06.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <201004181729.o3IHTkOq015831@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:06 PM 4/17/2010, you wrote: >I, too, have not heard back from John. I've collected the first round of requests, in order received, and passed them along to the collection owner. We're still trying to figure out how he wants to ship and/or have the collection picked-up and disbursed. He was on vacation when I last heard from him. He also has an Apple III system with monitor and a ProFile hard disk that I neglected to offer. He also had four Scantron and one NCS scanner (optical mark readers) that he'd dumpstered a few weeks before he contacted me. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 12:28:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:28:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: ACM insurance In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 18, 10 11:30:46 am Message-ID: > > > The stock prices of all the health insurance companies went way up > > after they signed the bill. =A0What does that tell you? > > Let's kill this political thread before it starts, OK? > > This list has had more than a few moments of extreme OT-ness, and most > of us can live with it, but talking politics is a whole new level. > Let's not go there. And please rememebr that quite a few active list members do not live in the US but in other countries with their own political problems (which are also best kept off this list unless they directly affect classic computing -- like lead-free solder, or unavailability of tungsten filament bulbs). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 12:34:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:34:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? Message-ID: I have a number of HP QIC tape drive units -- I think it's 2 off 9142, 3 off 9144 (1 3-board, the other 2 are single-board) and a 9145 [1] all with hte same problem. The rubber capstan has turend to goo. [1] There's a darn 68000 processor in that drive, unlike the 68B09s in the other units. Eeek! The capstan is a rubber 'tyre' on a metal hub, the latter being glued to the motor spidnle. The diameter of the hub is around 12mm (but I wil measure that accurately) and the overall diameter of the tyre is perhaps 18mm (it's going to be hard to measure, sure the fact I don't have a solid one :-() Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions as to suitable material that I can obtain in the UK to repair this? Assume as ever I have a reasonable workshop and am not affraid to pull the drives to bits :-) -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 18 12:50:28 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 19:50:28 +0200 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ECED60E74A942EF9D676F4C64841E9E@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 18 april 2010 19:35 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? > > I have a number of HP QIC tape drive units -- I think it's 2 > off 9142, 3 off 9144 (1 3-board, the other 2 are > single-board) and a 9145 [1] all with hte same problem. The > rubber capstan has turend to goo. > > [1] There's a darn 68000 processor in that drive, unlike the > 68B09s in the other units. Eeek! > > The capstan is a rubber 'tyre' on a metal hub, the latter > being glued to the motor spidnle. The diameter of the hub is > around 12mm (but I wil measure that accurately) and the > overall diameter of the tyre is perhaps 18mm (it's going to > be hard to measure, sure the fact I don't have a solid one :-() > > Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions as to suitable > material that I can obtain in the UK to repair this? Assume > as ever I have a reasonable workshop and am not affraid to > pull the drives to bits :-) > > -tony Tony, I use rubber precision pipes (a special kind of rubberhose). Diameters for the 9144 are inside 6/16 outside 7/16 inch. I glue the with polypurethane glue and grind to the right size using sandpaper 150 (3M wet or dry) I finish the capstands with a sandpaper 400 so the surface is smooth. For the HP85 / 9825 /9835 tapedrives I use a 6.5mm citroen hydraulic rubber. -Rik From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 12:50:26 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:50:26 +0100 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I too need some rollers, in a past life we had a company making rubber rollers for us, they would mould the rubber on (neoprene iirc) and then freeze then grind Dave Caroline On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a number of HP QIC tape drive units -- I think it's 2 off 9142, 3 > off 9144 (1 3-board, the other 2 are single-board) and a 9145 [1] all > with hte same problem. The rubber capstan has turend to goo. > > [1] There's a darn 68000 processor in that drive, unlike the 68B09s in > the other units. Eeek! > > The capstan is a rubber 'tyre' on a metal hub, the latter being glued to > the motor spidnle. The diameter of the hub is around 12mm (but I wil > measure that accurately) and the overall diameter of the tyre is perhaps > 18mm (it's going to be hard to measure, sure the fact I don't have a > solid one :-() > > Anyway, does anyone have any suggestions as to suitable material that I > can obtain in the UK to repair this? Assume as ever I have a reasonable > workshop and am not affraid to pull the drives to bits :-) > > -tony > > From bear at typewritten.org Sun Apr 18 13:28:07 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 11:28:07 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15077830-571D-47EF-B7A2-3E3DD4A000F4@typewritten.org> On Apr 18, 2010, at 10:34 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > the overall diameter of the tyre is perhaps 18mm (it's going to be > hard to measure, sure the fact I don't have a > solid one :-() I put a micrometer on the capstan in my 9145A. It had turned to goo, but not melted yet---so it was intact, but difficult to measure without deforming. I got a reasonably accurate measurement off it. Based on experience, this should be close enough to affect a workable repair (though I haven't gotten to actually doing the repair yet). HP 9145A 36 Track < 0.800" That should be read as "just under 0.8 inch." It was actually harder to clean all the melted capstan residue off the motor spindle than it was to measure it in the first place. It gets EVERYWHERE. ok bear From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 13:24:16 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 19:24:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: <3ECED60E74A942EF9D676F4C64841E9E@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 18, 10 07:50:28 pm Message-ID: > I use rubber precision pipes (a special kind of rubberhose). Deoes anyone know a UK supplier of small-ish quantities (I do not want to buy 100m of the stuff ;-)). > Diameters for the 9144 are inside 6/16 outside 7/16 inch. Do you mean that? The roller is a lot larger than that. OK, it would stretch onto the hub, but surely if the inisde diameter is 3/8" (6/16") and the outside is 7/12", them the wall thicknerss is only 1/32". And the old tyre looks a lot thicker than that. > I glue the with polypurethane glue and grind to the right size using > sandpaper 150 (3M wet or dry) I asume you run the motor off a bench supply and carefully hold the abrasive againsit it. > I finish the capstands with a sandpaper 400 so the surface is smooth. > For the HP85 / 9825 /9835 tapedrives I use a 6.5mm citroen hydraulic rubber. Is that what I would call a 'sleeve seal'? That is the little rubber seal you put ove the enf of the pipe before screwing the union down? IIRC they come in 3 sizes, I assume you need the largest one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 13:26:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 19:26:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Apr 18, 10 06:50:26 pm Message-ID: > > I too need some rollers, in a past life we had a company making rubber > rollers for us, they would mould the rubber on (neoprene iirc) and > then freeze then grind I am told that for most 'rubbers' you want to keep it at about the temperature of dry ice (solid CO_2). At that temperature it can be machinedrelatively easiy. Any colder, and it behaves like glass. I don't have a soruve of suitable rubber compoind though. There are the omes made by Devcon, but they are not cheap (particularly not if you follow the instructions and mix the entire pack at one time!) I would also have to make a suitable mould, but I think that is possible. -tony From andreww591 at gmail.com Sun Apr 18 13:53:59 2010 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 12:53:59 -0600 Subject: HP Integral questions In-Reply-To: <4BC64F83.8010101@bitsavers.org> References: <4BC64980.6060304@brouhaha.com> <4BC64F83.8010101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BCB5547.5020007@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/14/10 4:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Is there already a dump of the Software Engineering ROM Module (82987A)? >> > > The sw engr rom is on pete's site > www.coho.org/~pete/downloads/IPC > > > What about a dump of the main rom? > > > > I'd also be interested in a dump of the main ROM. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 13:54:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 19:54:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: <15077830-571D-47EF-B7A2-3E3DD4A000F4@typewritten.org> from "r.stricklin" at Apr 18, 10 11:28:07 am Message-ID: > > > On Apr 18, 2010, at 10:34 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > the overall diameter of the tyre is perhaps 18mm (it's going to be > > hard to measure, sure the fact I don't have a > > solid one :-() > > I put a micrometer on the capstan in my 9145A. It had turned to goo, > but not melted yet---so it was intact, but difficult to measure > without deforming. I got a reasonably accurate measurement off it. > Based on experience, this should be close enough to affect a workable > repair (though I haven't gotten to actually doing the repair yet). > > HP 9145A 36 Track < 0.800" > > That should be read as "just under 0.8 inch." 0.8" = 20.32mm Maybe the exact size is 20mm. Although I would normally expect imperial measurements in an American device, I have noticed that all the screws in this drive have metric threads. So perhaps it is a sensible diameter in milimetres. > > It was actually harder to clean all the melted capstan residue off the > motor spindle than it was to measure it in the first place. It gets > EVERYWHERE. Indeed. The place to keep it well away from is the slotted tachomter disk also on the motor spinde. My method for cleaning invovles a bit of dismantling. Take off the top cover and front pneal. Unclip and remove the tape door and its torsion spriong. Remove the cotnroller board (athe tope of the unit), then the 4 screws on the bottom and take the drive mechanism out. Remove the board(s) from the underside of the sdrive mechanism. Take off the microswitch assembly (2 screws, but make sure you know which switch goes on top!). Remvoe the optical BOT/EOPT sensor in a 9142. This is not essentla but it's fewer things to get gunged up. Now turn the drive ipside down. See the little plastic part in front of the mtoor that hoos into the loading mechanism. Remove this (2 screws), then loosen (or remove) the 2 setscrews holding the motor pivot spindles in place. Slite out the spidles and lift out the motor assemlby. Recover the spirng and 3 insulating bushes. Note that hte motor is insulated from the drive chassis (the drive chassis is connected to logic groudn, the motor to power groudn, these are connected in the PSU only). Remove the tacho senso from the motor (1 screw). Now clean off as much of the gunge as you can using kitchen paper and propan-2-0;. Start with dry paper (it will remove much of the gunge), then clean up witht he alcohol. Then connect the motor to a bench supply anf give it about 12V (it's not critical). You can now clean it using paper or cotton buds dipped in propan-2-ol. You won't get it perfect, but it comes a lot cleaner that way. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 18 14:08:49 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:08:49 +0200 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: <3ECED60E74A942EF9D676F4C64841E9E@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr18, 10 07:50:28 pm Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 18 april 2010 20:24 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? > > > I use rubber precision pipes (a special kind of rubberhose). > > Deoes anyone know a UK supplier of small-ish quantities (I do > not want to buy 100m of the stuff ;-)). > > > Diameters for the 9144 are inside 6/16 outside 7/16 inch. > > Do you mean that? The roller is a lot larger than that. OK, > it would stretch onto the hub, but surely if the inisde > diameter is 3/8" (6/16") and the outside is 7/12", them the > wall thicknerss is only 1/32". And the old tyre looks a lot > thicker than that. Oops, wrong notes :-( It should be inside 1/2" outside 11/16" > > > I glue the with polypurethane glue and grind to the right > size using > > sandpaper 150 (3M wet or dry) > > I asume you run the motor off a bench supply and carefully > hold the abrasive againsit it. > > > I finish the capstands with a sandpaper 400 so the surface > is smooth. > > For the HP85 / 9825 /9835 tapedrives I use a 6.5mm citroen > hydraulic rubber. > > Is that what I would call a 'sleeve seal'? That is the little > rubber seal you put ove the enf of the pipe before screwing > the union down? IIRC they come in 3 sizes, I assume you need > the largest one. Yes the sizes are 3.5mm 4.5mm and 6.5mm inside, it's a special kind of neopreen which is oil and wear resistant. -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 14:11:28 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:11:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 18, 10 07:54:04 pm Message-ID: > > I put a micrometer on the capstan in my 9145A. It had turned to goo, > > but not melted yet---so it was intact, but difficult to measure > > without deforming. I got a reasonably accurate measurement off it. > > Based on experience, this should be close enough to affect a workable > > repair (though I haven't gotten to actually doing the repair yet). > > > > HP 9145A 36 Track < 0.800" > > > > That should be read as "just under 0.8 inch." > > 0.8" = 20.32mm Maybe the exact size is 20mm. Although I would normally > expect imperial measurements in an American device, I have noticed that > all the screws in this drive have metric threads. So perhaps it is a > sensible diameter in milimetres. Furter hto this. I've just put the micrometer on the (cleaned) hub of the 9144 that's on my bench. It measues 0.5925". This is almost exactly 15mm, and I suspect that's what it should actually be. Which makes a metric dimension for the outside diameter more likely. So I guess the 'tyre' is 15mm I/D, 20mm O/D (which would give a wall thichness of 2.5mm). Now to find some suitable tubing... I am pretty sure that all these drives use the same size capstan, BTW. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 18 14:18:23 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 20:18:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 18, 10 09:08:49 pm Message-ID: > Oops, wrong notes :-( > It should be inside 1/2" outside 11/16" RIght... See the other messages for what I believe are the right dimensions of the finished roller. [Sleeve seals for 98x5 tape drives) > Yes the sizes are 3.5mm 4.5mm and 6.5mm inside, it's a special kind of > neopreen which is oil and wear resistant. Having looked after a BX for 13 years I know them well.... -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 18 14:58:23 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:58:23 +0200 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 18, 10 07:54:04 pm Message-ID: <44D449822EFE4178A681165AFA6374E5@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 18 april 2010 21:11 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? > > > > I put a micrometer on the capstan in my 9145A. It had > turned to goo, > > > but not melted yet---so it was intact, but difficult to measure > > > without deforming. I got a reasonably accurate measurement off it. > > > Based on experience, this should be close enough to affect a > > > workable repair (though I haven't gotten to actually > doing the repair yet). > > > > > > HP 9145A 36 Track < 0.800" > > > > > > That should be read as "just under 0.8 inch." > > > > 0.8" = 20.32mm Maybe the exact size is 20mm. Although I > would normally > > expect imperial measurements in an American device, I have noticed > > that all the screws in this drive have metric threads. So > perhaps it > > is a sensible diameter in milimetres. > > Furter hto this. I've just put the micrometer on the > (cleaned) hub of the > 9144 that's on my bench. It measues 0.5925". This is almost > exactly 15mm, and I suspect that's what it should actually > be. Which makes a metric dimension for the outside diameter > more likely. I could be wrong but my notes (about 2 years old) tells my 12.7mm (1/2") inside and 17,5 (11/16) outside. Tube thikness ~2.4 mm. I used a 10/15 tube it has a tight fitting and I'm using it until today. I use the same tube to fix the TU-58 works very well. > > So I guess the 'tyre' is 15mm I/D, 20mm O/D (which would give > a wall thichness of 2.5mm). Now to find some suitable tubing... > > I am pretty sure that all these drives use the same size capstan, BTW. > -Rik From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Apr 18 17:15:29 2010 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 18:15:29 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: <15077830-571D-47EF-B7A2-3E3DD4A000F4@typewritten.org> from "r.stricklin" at Apr 18, 10 11:28:07 am, Message-ID: On Sunday, April 18, 2010 at 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: > Although I would normally expect imperial measurements in an American > device, I have noticed that all the screws in this drive have metric > threads. Is it an American device? I've never seen one, but all of the 9144/45/35401 manuals appear to have been printed in the UK. Does the serial plate list the country of manufacture? -- Dave From evan at snarc.net Sun Apr 18 20:13:56 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:13:56 -0400 Subject: OT: ACM insurance In-Reply-To: <4BCB2AE7.9040506@gmail.com> References: <4BBF27AE.21995.DA45FD@cclist.sydex.com> <4BCA1099.3050606@gmail.com> <4BCB2AE7.9040506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BCBAE54.20900@snarc.net> >> talking politics is a whole new level. >> Let's not go there. > > Seconded. Thirded! Two words for cctalk veterans: Michael Sokolov ...... From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Apr 18 23:23:08 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 00:23:08 -0400 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201004190023.08201.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 15 April 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > + DG Nova 2 w/ PERTEC 9-track tape drive and dual 8" floppy. > Asking $750, this will go to eBay if I don't get any takers. > + DG > Nova 4. Have 3 or 4, some missing the front-panel. 3rd party > Disk/QIC tape rackmount box that goes with them. > + SGI Onyx prototype machine. The same size and chassis as a > Challenge XL. $100 I have posted pictures of these on my flickr account: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157623886374566/ For those who have asked, I'm looking for $250 each for the Nova 4 and disk/tape subsystem sets. Other things I have available that I didn't think of in time for my first post: "Diva disk system", disk-pack drives. There are 3 of these I don't know much about these besides the fact they're HEAVY, and supposedly use are a Trident disk drive (?). Would like $50 total for all 3. Compaq ES40. One has 12GB ram, the other I think has 16GB ram. Both have quad 866MHz 21264 CPUs. Want $400 for the 12GB ram one, and $500 for the 16GB ram one. I've got some 36GB disks and disk sleds for each of these. One of my PDP-11/23 systems has a dual RX02 and RL02 drive attached. I also have a picture of this system in the flickr photo set I linked to above. $200 I'm currently going through and compiling a list of stuff, and matching it to people, so everyone who has sent me mail should hear from me soon. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 18 23:35:00 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 21:35:00 -0700 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004190023.08201.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201004190023.08201.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4BCBDD74.5050306@bitsavers.org> On 4/18/10 9:23 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > "Diva disk system", disk-pack drives. There are 3 of these I don't know > much about these besides the fact they're HEAVY, and supposedly use are > a Trident disk drive (?). Would like $50 total for all 3. > which model trident? T25, 50, 80, 300? From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 19 00:06:46 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 01:06:46 -0400 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. Message-ID: <201004190106.46869.pat@computer-refuge.org> It appears that there has been a lot of interest in the Tek 4010 terminal. As I don't want to pick anyone myself, I think that I'll end up putting it up for sale on eBay and let everyone settle who gets it that way. I'll see if I can get it listed early this week. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 19 00:24:48 2010 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 01:24:48 -0400 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <4BCBDD74.5050306@bitsavers.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> <201004190023.08201.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4BCBDD74.5050306@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201004190124.48251.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 19 April 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/18/10 9:23 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > "Diva disk system", disk-pack drives. There are 3 of these I don't > > know much about these besides the fact they're HEAVY, and > > supposedly use are a Trident disk drive (?). Would like $50 total > > for all 3. > > which model trident? T25, 50, 80, 300? > These are the same "Century Data T-50" disks I posted to the list about back on March 30 of 2005. Wow, I'm just realizing now that I haven't touched them in 5 years... Also, I still don't have disk packs for the drives. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 19 04:57:55 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:57:55 +0200 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: <15077830-571D-47EF-B7A2-3E3DD4A000F4@typewritten.org> from"r.stricklin" at Apr 18, 10 11:28:07 am, Message-ID: <7A50FE6667634B89867E208DABF30DB7@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens J. David Bryan > Verzonden: maandag 19 april 2010 0:15 > Aan: Classic Computing List > Onderwerp: Re: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? > > On Sunday, April 18, 2010 at 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Although I would normally expect imperial measurements in > an American > > device, I have noticed that all the screws in this drive > have metric > > threads. > > Is it an American device? I've never seen one, but all of the > 9144/45/35401 manuals appear to have been printed in the UK. > Does the serial plate list the country of manufacture? > > -- Dave Classic >1960 HP serials always mention the country of production. Format XX (year +1960) XX (month) Y (country code) XXXXXXXXXXXX (serial) 2823G123456 made year 1988 week 23 in Germany serial 123456 A = USA G = Germany F = France S = Signapore B = Brazil -Rik From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Apr 19 05:21:00 2010 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:21:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: MDS Series 21 Message-ID: Hi, what exactly is a Mohawk Data Sciences (MDS) Series 21? There's almost nothing on the net about that system apart from one small article in the July 1978 issue of Computer. Is it worth saving? Christian From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Apr 19 07:46:06 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 07:46:06 -0500 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I found what purports to be a diskdef for cpmtools, but am not having any > success at all. The file _appears_ to copy into the image and I can read > it back out uncorrupted with cpmtools, but when I write it to a disk with > Dave Dunfield's NST and boot it, the file is filled with E5s. > > I did note the diskdef is for 70 tracks (double-sided) and tried changing > the track value to 35. No luck. > > I'm trying to move the Morrow HD format/test utility to a diskette that > can be accessed from my N* CPM 2.2 boot diskette, but so far it's "Can't > Get There from Here..". > > I'd try a comm program, but guess what I don't have on an N* diskette? > :-). You can transfer files via serial port, using PIP, XMODEM etc. At the most basic level, you can transfer a index hex file load and save it. You can also use my simulator to transfer files into and out of images, and then use NST to transfer those images to the real system. This may be easier than hooking up serial lines etc. You can "mount" files for input/output over the virtual serial port. This means you can mount a file then receive from it into CP/M just like you would have done with an external PC and TTY emulator (but without the syncronization problems). Another way to transfer files into the simulator is to halt the simulation, then use the simulator 'L'oad command to load an image into memory, then restart the simulation and save it with CP/M. Regards, Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From steve at cosam.org Mon Apr 19 08:57:42 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:57:42 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? Message-ID: Towards the end of last year, the Manx documentation catalogue was pronounced dead by its maintainer and taken offline. Understandably, many pleas for a dump of the database followed, and this was subsequently made available. Thankfully the site was soon up again, although no longer maintained and apparently missing a few PDFs. Since then it seems to have gone quiet. Did anyone end up doing anything with the dump, or were all the requests for this simply to ensure that the raw data was preserved? Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Apr 19 10:54:38 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 08:54:38 -0700 Subject: MDS Series 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BCC7CBE.2070407@bitsavers.org> On 4/19/10 3:21 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > Hi, > > what exactly is a Mohawk Data Sciences (MDS) Series 21? There's almost > nothing on the net about that system apart from one small article in the > July 1978 issue of Computer. Is it worth saving? > > Christian > > There are a couple of interesting google hits on "mohawk data series 21" 21 appears to be a multi-terminal word processing system. The facebook site has some interesting info on the early history of the company. I had heard of them mainly as a supplier of key to tape systems. If you do decide to scrap it, getting pics of the components/boards and noting what the processor was would be of interest. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 19 11:40:02 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 09:40:02 -0700 Subject: MDS Series 21 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BCC24F2.14009.16AD5B@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Apr 2010 at 12:21, Christian Corti wrote: > what exactly is a Mohawk Data Sciences (MDS) Series 21? There's almost > nothing on the net about that system apart from one small article in > the July 1978 issue of Computer. Is it worth saving? Didn't Mohawk have an outpost in Los Gatos during the 70's? I seem to remember that they had a concentration of Korean programmers on their staff. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Apr 19 11:55:32 2010 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:55:32 -0400 Subject: classic computers at notacon7 Message-ID: <4BCC8B04.4090008@verizon.net> So I got back from Notacon7 in Cleveland, OH, yesterday, and wanted to mention that there was a classic computer presence there. Robert & Jim from Fresno Commodore User Group were there and had setup a variety of old machines including 64's, VIC-20's, 1541's, and even an A500(Yay!) with a couple boxes of disks. There was also a demo in the BlockParty demo competition from a guy who used the Coleco as his platform of choice. His demo was mostly written in Z80 assembly with help from some FORTH tools. There was a preference for running these demos on the old hardware. Plenty of Amiga "trackers" used during the music-only portion of the competition. http://www.demoparty.us/ and http://www.notacon.org/ has more info if you are interested. Keith From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 19 11:52:42 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 10:52:42 -0600 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:57:42 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Steve Maddison writes: > Towards the end of last year, the Manx documentation catalogue was > pronounced dead by its maintainer and taken offline. Understandably, > many pleas for a dump of the database followed, and this was > subsequently made available. My attempts to get a dump of the database failed. Where is it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Apr 19 12:31:06 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:31:06 +0100 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Richard [legalize at xmission.com] wrote: > My attempts to get a dump of the database failed. Where is it? http://hisdeedsaredust.com/2009/10/manx-dumps/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 13:35:12 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:35:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: from "J. David Bryan" at Apr 18, 10 06:15:29 pm Message-ID: > > On Sunday, April 18, 2010 at 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Although I would normally expect imperial measurements in an American > > device, I have noticed that all the screws in this drive have metric > > threads. > > Is it an American device? I've never seen one, but all of the > 9144/45/35401 manuals appear to have been printed in the UK. Does the > serial plate list the country of manufacture? I thought the original 9144 was an American design/build, production was later moved to England (Bristol) around the time the 3-board version was introduced (that is, when the host interface and the device dependant controller were all built on one PCB called 'SBcont'). I think 9145s were all built in England, I am not sure about he 9142. Certainly my 9144 and 9145 units are made in England (they say so on the nameplate and have an 'E' in the serial number). On the other hand, I would have expected the same screws and threads to be used throughout the production run. However, HP certianly did use metric threads. The Integral is full of them, for example (the expansion PCB fixing thumbscrews are certainly metric, I had to make one. As are most of the internal fixings. And of course the HPIB jackscrew is M3.5 So perhaps I shouldn't have been suprised to find metric screws in these tape drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 13:18:15 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:18:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: <44D449822EFE4178A681165AFA6374E5@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 18, 10 09:58:23 pm Message-ID: > > > > HP 9145A 36 Track < 0.800" > > > > > > > > That should be read as "just under 0.8 inch." > > > > > > 0.8" = 20.32mm Maybe the exact size is 20mm. Although I > > would normally > > > expect imperial measurements in an American device, I have noticed > > > that all the screws in this drive have metric threads. So > > perhaps it > > > is a sensible diameter in milimetres. > > > > Furter hto this. I've just put the micrometer on the > > (cleaned) hub of the > > 9144 that's on my bench. It measues 0.5925". This is almost > > exactly 15mm, and I suspect that's what it should actually > > be. Which makes a metric dimension for the outside diameter > > more likely. > > I could be wrong but my notes (about 2 years old) tells my 12.7mm (1/2") > inside and 17,5 (11/16) outside. I willcheck again. I doubt I was 0.1" out, but it's always possibel I made an error reading the micrometer. Of course a 1/2" I/D tube would be a tight bit on a 15mm hub which could well be an advantage. I will also admit I've not opeened all the tape drives recently. It's possible I still ahve one good capatan that I could measure. The 2 I've looked at so far (one 9142, the other a 3-board 9144 have turend to goo, though). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 14:11:39 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:11:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: <7A50FE6667634B89867E208DABF30DB7@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 19, 10 11:57:55 am Message-ID: > Classic >1960 HP serials always mention the country of production. > Format XX (year +1960) XX (month) Y (country code) XXXXXXXXXXXX (serial) > 2823G123456 made year 1988 week 23 in Germany serial 123456 Indeed. > A = USA > G = Germany > F = France > S = Signapore > B = Brazil Some others that I have seen E = England J = Japan K = Korea (The last 2 I've seen on monitors made by NEC and Samsung respectively, but badged HP. They have an HP style serial number.) I've alsoe heard that 'Q' was used for England at one point, but I have never come across this. Getting back to tape drives, the units I'ev looked at are, indeed made in England (with an 'E' in the serial number). I've also just stuck a ruler on the metal hub of the capstan from the 9144, it measures 15mm, and is considerably more that 1/2". Of coruse a ruler is not as accurate as a micrometer, but it suggests that my measurements from the latter tool could be correct. -tony From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 19 14:26:00 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <335663.3203.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I don't think you can say with complete assurance that a device is or isn't USian based on whether it has standard or metric fasteners. In the automotive industry for example, it was very common (particularly on Ford cars) that all fasteners on the engines were metric, way back into the early 1980s, whereas everything else on the car was standard. These days I think most all car fasteners are metric. That said, it is very common for standard measurements to be used in mechanical designs these days. ________________________________ From: Tony Duell To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Mon, April 19, 2010 2:11:39 PM Subject: Re: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? > Classic >1960 HP serials always mention the country of production. > Format XX (year +1960) XX (month) Y (country code) XXXXXXXXXXXX (serial) > 2823G123456 made year 1988 week 23 in Germany serial 123456 Indeed. > A = USA > G = Germany > F = France > S = Signapore > B = Brazil Some others that I have seen E = England J = Japan K = Korea (The last 2 I've seen on monitors made by NEC and Samsung respectively, but badged HP. They have an HP style serial number.) I've alsoe heard that 'Q' was used for England at one point, but I have never come across this. Getting back to tape drives, the units I'ev looked at are, indeed made in England (with an 'E' in the serial number). I've also just stuck a ruler on the metal hub of the capstan from the 9144, it measures 15mm, and is considerably more that 1/2". Of coruse a ruler is not as accurate as a micrometer, but it suggests that my measurements from the latter tool could be correct. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 19 14:39:41 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:39:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: <335663.3203.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "geoffrey oltmans" at Apr 19, 10 12:26:00 pm Message-ID: > > I don't think you can say with complete assurance that a device is or > isn't USian based on whether it has standard or metric fasteners. In the True enough. However, the small-size UNC and UNF threads (things like 4-40 UNC) are very uncommon in non-US equipment.. And I suspect BA (or for that matter BSF, BSW) are very uncommon in anything that wasn't made in the UK. Apart from 1/4" BSW, of course. > automotive industry for example, it was very common (particularly on > Ford cars) that all fasteners on the engines were metric, way back into > the early 1980s, whereas everything else on the car was standard. These > days I think most all car fasteners are metric. I read somewhere that British Ford cards oold in the 980s over here had mostly UNC and UNF botls, but the gearbox was built with entirely metric fasteners. You needed 2 sets of spanners to work on the car. I was also told by somebody who worked for Myford that they had saved a fair amount of money by changing from BSW to metric bolts in some parts of the Super 7 lathe. The point being that the metric ones were made in much larger qunatities so they were cheaper. And of course it doesn't make any real difference to the functioning of the machine -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Apr 19 14:50:50 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:50:50 +0200 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: <44D449822EFE4178A681165AFA6374E5@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr18, 10 09:58:23 pm Message-ID: <2EA4EC9F537F46608997ED5EF6B18DF8@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 19 april 2010 20:18 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? > > > > > > HP 9145A 36 Track < 0.800" > > > > > > > > > > That should be read as "just under 0.8 inch." > > > > > > > > 0.8" = 20.32mm Maybe the exact size is 20mm. Although I > > > would normally > > > > expect imperial measurements in an American device, I > have noticed > > > > that all the screws in this drive have metric threads. So > > > perhaps it > > > > is a sensible diameter in milimetres. > > > > > > Furter hto this. I've just put the micrometer on the > > > (cleaned) hub of the > > > 9144 that's on my bench. It measues 0.5925". This is > almost exactly > > > 15mm, and I suspect that's what it should actually be. > Which makes a > > > metric dimension for the outside diameter more likely. > > > > I could be wrong but my notes (about 2 years old) tells my 12.7mm > > (1/2") inside and 17,5 (11/16) outside. > > I willcheck again. I doubt I was 0.1" out, but it's always > possibel I made an error reading the micrometer. > > Of course a 1/2" I/D tube would be a tight bit on a 15mm hub > which could well be an advantage. > > I will also admit I've not opeened all the tape drives > recently. It's possible I still ahve one good capatan that I > could measure. The 2 I've looked at so far (one 9142, the > other a 3-board 9144 have turend to goo, though). > > -tony I can't acces my HP 9144 at the moment but I opened up a 7946 whitch has a 9144 tapedrive build in. And the sizes of the capstan are consistent with the ones you're measured. So now it's for me the question where did I measured the other sizes ................. -Rik From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon Apr 19 15:42:37 2010 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 15:42:37 -0500 Subject: Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20100419204237.GA24465@RawFedDogs.net> Pat, On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 05:25:27PM -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > + AlphaServer 4100. $20 I'd be interested in the above, but I'm in central Texas. I currently have a couple of VAXen running VMS(OpenVMS) but nothing capable of running Alpha VMS. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes. Longum iter est per praecepta, breve et efficax per exempla!!! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 19 16:07:32 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:07:32 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS Message-ID: <014701cae004$5771fea0$0655fbe0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I am trying to run the ftp command on Windows (7) against an FTP server on VMS 7.3 (the UCX version of TCP/IP). I am sure this has worked in the past, but now when I try it connects successfully but VMS never sends back the login prompt. I tried running FTP on the VMS system back to itself and the prompt came straight back. Sniffing the packets I see a SYN from Windows, SYN-ACK from VMS and then ACK back to VMS. 60 seconds later Windows resets the connection. Has anyone else seen this and know the solution? Thanks Rob From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Apr 19 16:36:38 2010 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 14:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Monarch/Dynabyte 6600 in Albany, NY Message-ID: <644875.92026.qm@web110611.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Gerry Fassett writes that he wants to sell his Monarch/DynaByte 6600. It is from the mid-80's, maybe. Please contact him if interested at Photos here: http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/dynabyte-1.jpg http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/dynabyte-2.jpg http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/dynabyte-3.jpg http://popbottlecaps.com/temp/dynabyte-4.jpg From evan at snarc.net Mon Apr 19 19:50:35 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 20:50:35 -0400 Subject: Hackers Message-ID: <4BCCFA5B.9030904@snarc.net> Steven Levy revisits his book "Hackers" with some new perspective. http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/04/ff_hackers From legalize at xmission.com Mon Apr 19 20:27:35 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:27:35 -0600 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:31:06 +0100. Message-ID: In article , writes: > Richard [legalize at xmission.com] wrote: > > My attempts to get a dump of the database failed. Where is it? > > http://hisdeedsaredust.com/2009/10/manx-dumps/ "Dump" is right. Without an explanation of the schema this isn't very useful. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Apr 19 23:06:22 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:06:22 -0700 Subject: Hackers In-Reply-To: <4BCCFA5B.9030904@snarc.net> References: <4BCCFA5B.9030904@snarc.net> Message-ID: VERY interesting reading... I am the proud owner of a first edition hardcover copy of Hackers and yes, this book inspired me a *lot*. I had always wondered what happened to Richard Greenblatt. Now I know. Mark On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 5:50 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Steven Levy revisits his book "Hackers" with some new perspective. > > http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/04/ff_hackers > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Apr 19 23:29:12 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:29:12 -0700 Subject: More stuff to get rid of - Seattle, WA Message-ID: <4BCD2D98.3070608@mail.msu.edu> Time for some early spring cleaning. I've got a pile of stuff I'm never going to use again (I've decided to give up on my SparcStation collection, for example :))... Here goes. This is all located in the Seattle area, the smaller stuff I can ship but I'd of course prefer local pickup. Make me an offer... Anything not claimed will be put on Craigslist at the end of the week and the remainder goes to RE-PC after that. - DEC RL02 : not working, but is complete (minus front panel bulbs). Very beat up looking, but clean inside. - Acorn A5000 : works, but faceplate is beat up (got mangled in the mail due to bad packing). Needs new battery (removed old leaky one before it could do any serious damage). No keyboard/mouse -- not PS/2 compatible. - IBM PS/2 Model 70 (386). 4mb ram, no hard drive but sled is present. Boots just fine. - Blue & White G3 Mac with 450Mhz G4 upgrade. Runs fine, no hard drive, somewhere around 256mb of RAM. - HP Apollo Series 700. Small pizzabox. Worked the last time I powered it up. - Amstrad PC1640 SD : just the main unit, no monitor (which supplies the power). Missing one of the drives. - Beehive "Super Bee" terminal : No keyboard, needs repair. In solid shape. Heavy. - 2x IBM PC Convertibles : One has a backlit screen, one without. Two carrying cases. One AC adapter. Serial and Printer expansions. - Sun Ultra Enterprise 2 : Dual UltraSparc IIi, 512mb ram. No drives, but I have sleds somewhere. - SparcStation 2 - 2x SparcStation IPX - SparcStation IPC - 2x Macintosh Portables - good for parts, no working hard drives between the two, alas. (None of the SparcStations have working NVRAM batteries.) - Piles of old IDE disks (500mb or less). Unknown condition, many were working at one point but time and stiction make fools of us all. Inquire if you want details, I'm too lazy to list them all here right now :). - IBM P260 21" CRT monitor. Nice flat trinitron CRT, works pretty well. Large, as these monitors tend to be. Does SOG. Thanks, Josh From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Apr 20 00:02:55 2010 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 07:02:55 +0200 Subject: HP-IB, Amigo/cs80, again, connectors In-Reply-To: <4BCA6A44.2030302@jbrain.com> References: <4B81A8C0.8030605@e-bbes.com> <4BCA6A44.2030302@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4BCD357F.1080109@e-bbes.com> Jim Brain wrote: > On 2/21/2010 3:42 PM, e.stiebler wrote: >> OK, another question : >> a cheap source for the hp-ib, gpib connectors ? >> What I found so far is in the $ 20 range. >> (through hole, right angle, receptacle, ...) >> >> Cheers & Thanks > > http://www.l-com.com/productfamily.aspx?id=1243 > $8.00 for RA through hole PCB Thanks ! From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Apr 19 20:58:18 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 21:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: > You can transfer files via serial port, using PIP, XMODEM etc. > At the most basic level, you can transfer a index hex file load and save > it. > > You can also use my simulator to transfer files into and out of images, > and then use NST to transfer those images to the real system. This may > be easier than hooking up serial lines etc. > > You can "mount" files for input/output over the virtual serial port. This > means you can mount a file then receive from it into CP/M just like you > would have done with an external PC and TTY emulator (but without the > syncronization problems). Maybe I'm just being dense, but I cannot seem to get this working. I hit F3 to stop, then F7 whereupon I mount the input file. Then I 'g' back to CP/M and try: A>PIP B:TEST.HEX=RDR: At this point it just hangs and will not respond to Ctrl-C. If I reboot the emulator I find an empty TEXT.$$$ file on the target disk. In the debugger, it is simply looping on the UART status register but apparently never seeing anything. I'm not using a config file, which I believe makes the default 'file'. What am I doing wrong? Steve -- From steve at cosam.org Tue Apr 20 07:52:28 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:52:28 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Richard wrote: > "Dump" is right. > > Without an explanation of the schema this isn't very useful. It's not that bad. The data model is pretty simple (I count only 11 tables) and the field names are reasonably descriptive. It wouldn't be too hard to make sense of it. The blog post announcing the dump hinted that some kind of description of the database would follow, as would documentation of the various code and scripts. This was last October though, so I'm not holding my breath. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 08:20:07 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:20:07 -0400 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 19 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> You can transfer files via serial port, using PIP, XMODEM etc. >> At the most basic level, you can transfer a index hex file load and save >> it. >> >> You can also use my simulator to transfer files into and out of images, >> and then use NST to transfer those images to the real system. This may >> be easier than hooking up serial lines etc. >> >> You can "mount" files for input/output over the virtual serial port. >> This >> means you can mount a file then receive from it into CP/M just like you >> would have done with an external PC and TTY emulator (but without the >> syncronization problems). > > Maybe I'm just being dense, but I cannot seem to get this working. I > hit F3 to stop, then F7 whereupon I mount the input file. Then I 'g' > back to CP/M and try: > > A>PIP B:TEST.HEX=RDR: > > At this point it just hangs and will not respond to Ctrl-C. If I > reboot the emulator I find an empty TEXT.$$$ file on the target disk. > > In the debugger, it is simply looping on the UART status register but > apparently never seeing anything. > > I'm not using a config file, which I believe makes the default 'file'. > > What am I doing wrong? > > Steve > > Is anything actually hooked up to the reader?? This is both a software question and hardware. Generally the only port I trust is console. and I can easily transfer files to any system that uses a serial console because of that. Allison From dave09 at dunfield.com Tue Apr 20 12:12:43 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:12:43 -0500 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> References: Message-ID: <15B36F291DEC@dunfield.com> > >> You can "mount" files for input/output over the virtual serial port. > >> This > >> means you can mount a file then receive from it into CP/M just like you > >> would have done with an external PC and TTY emulator (but without the > >> syncronization problems). > > > > Maybe I'm just being dense, but I cannot seem to get this working. I > > hit F3 to stop, then F7 whereupon I mount the input file. Then I 'g' > > back to CP/M and try: > > > > A>PIP B:TEST.HEX=RDR: > > > > At this point it just hangs and will not respond to Ctrl-C. If I > > reboot the emulator I find an empty TEXT.$$$ file on the target disk. > Is anything actually hooked up to the reader?? This is both a software > question and hardware. > > Generally the only port I trust is console. and I can easily transfer > files to any system that uses > a serial console because of that. Yeah! - that appears to be the case. I use this technique lots under NorthStar DOS (where I have utilities that can read/write to any of the I/O devices), and I *assumed* that the Horizon implementations of CP/M would have at least one input device pointed at the secondary serial port - however this appears to NOT be the case :-( I've made two additions to my HORIZON support package which should help you out: 1) I've added a small 'CPM' utility which takes a file on your PC and converts it into an Intel HEX format download file origined at address 0100 (the CP/M TPA) and padded to a multiple of 256 bytes with 0x1A (EOF) characters. - you can then boot CP/M, halt the simulation, 'L'oad this file, resume simulation and 'SAVE' the TPA to a CP/M file, effectively importing the file to the CP/M disk. This method is very fast and easy, but is limited to files the size of your CP/M TPA or less. 2) I've added a "Reader" option to the simulator Mount command, which mounts a file to be read as if it were typed at the keyboard (normally the console). When the file hits EOF it is unmounted and normal keyboard operation resumes. You can use this like you would the paper tape reader of an ASR33 - just PIP CON: into the file you want, then mount the file on the Reader (which automatically starts it) - after it is finished, you must press ^Z to send the EOF character from the keyboard, which will cause PIP to close the file. The updated package has been uploaded to the site. Hope this works for you. regards, Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 20 12:01:24 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> References: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net> If you can load a file into memory, and regain access to the CP/M command processor, then the SAVE command could be quite useful. From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 12:14:15 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:14:15 -0400 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BCDE0E7.9040006@verizon.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > If you can load a file into memory, and regain access to the CP/M command > processor, then the SAVE command could be quite useful. > > > > His problem is that RDR is a closed loop driver. It sits and spins in a tight loop until it gets a char, until then the system never sees the CTRL-C or CTRL-Z. The solution is to use the serial console to a PC/other running a terminal program so that you always have control-C test (also CTL-Z needed to exit pip and write the file.). Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 20 12:23:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:23:30 -0700 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net>, <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BCD80A2.26751.3CBEE7@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2010 at 10:01, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you can load a file into memory, and regain access to the CP/M > command processor, then the SAVE command could be quite useful. There are possibilities even on systems without what appears to be any means of data linking. I once transfered a bunch of files by taping a phototransistor over a controllable LED on the keyboard of what appeared to be an otherwise impenetrable system. Bit-bang by blinking. It's mostly software, anyway. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 20 12:25:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:25:18 -0700 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCDE0E7.9040006@verizon.net> References: , <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net>, <4BCDE0E7.9040006@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BCD810E.15868.3E63AE@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2010 at 13:14, allison wrote: > The solution is to use the serial console to a PC/other running a > terminal program so that you always have control-C test (also CTL-Z > needed to exit pip and write the file.). I'm assuming that he's at least got DDT. Write some code and be done with it--8-bit CP/M systems are generally very simple and only rarely employ anything as involved as interrupt processing. --Chuck From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Tue Apr 20 12:47:45 2010 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:47:45 +0200 Subject: DEC DMP-11 SYNC SERIAL INTERFACE MANUALS??? Message-ID: <7BfbNeCAO18TD12YfcpQuytLoxq6G9UbEDiAiGMwZPo@akmail> Has anyone got manuals for the DEC DMP-11 synchronous serial interface? It was a common interface for multipoint DDCMP DECnet connections in the era before Ethernet became well-established. Any hints welcome! Regards, Ulli From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 20 13:21:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 19:21:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: <2EA4EC9F537F46608997ED5EF6B18DF8@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 19, 10 09:50:50 pm Message-ID: > > I can't acces my HP 9144 at the moment but I opened up a 7946 whitch has a > 9144 tapedrive build in. > And the sizes of the capstan are consistent with the ones you're measured. OK... > So now it's for me the question where did I measured the other sizes > ................. Hmmm.. If it was HP, it's not something like the roginal size of the HP98x5 capstan, is it? -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 20 14:03:45 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:03:45 -0700 Subject: DEC DMP-11 SYNC SERIAL INTERFACE MANUALS??? In-Reply-To: <7BfbNeCAO18TD12YfcpQuytLoxq6G9UbEDiAiGMwZPo@akmail> References: <7BfbNeCAO18TD12YfcpQuytLoxq6G9UbEDiAiGMwZPo@akmail> Message-ID: <4BCDFA91.2060609@bitsavers.org> On 4/20/10 10:47 AM, H?lscher wrote: > Has anyone got manuals for the DEC DMP-11 synchronous serial interface? > It was a common interface for multipoint DDCMP DECnet connections in the > era before Ethernet became well-established. > The documents for the DMR-11, which uses the same board set, is on bitsavers under pdp11/unibus. I don't know what the difference is between the DMP and DMR From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 10:50:20 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> References: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, allison wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> >>> You can transfer files via serial port, using PIP, XMODEM etc. >>> At the most basic level, you can transfer a index hex file load and save >>> it. >>> >>> You can also use my simulator to transfer files into and out of images, >>> and then use NST to transfer those images to the real system. This may >>> be easier than hooking up serial lines etc. >>> >>> You can "mount" files for input/output over the virtual serial port. This >>> means you can mount a file then receive from it into CP/M just like you >>> would have done with an external PC and TTY emulator (but without the >>> syncronization problems). >> >> Maybe I'm just being dense, but I cannot seem to get this working. I hit >> F3 to stop, then F7 whereupon I mount the input file. Then I 'g' back to >> CP/M and try: >> >> A>PIP B:TEST.HEX=RDR: >> >> At this point it just hangs and will not respond to Ctrl-C. If I reboot >> the emulator I find an empty TEXT.$$$ file on the target disk. >> >> In the debugger, it is simply looping on the UART status register but >> apparently never seeing anything. >> >> I'm not using a config file, which I believe makes the default 'file'. >> >> What am I doing wrong? >> >> Steve >> >> > Is anything actually hooked up to the reader?? This is both a software > question and hardware. There's nothing in the help or docs that really explains where the AUX port input and output appear under CP/M, so I just assumed (probably incorrectly) that the input became RDR:. I know under N*DOS I can print to 1 (from memory) and have it spool to the file, so things on the emulator side work fine - at least in that direction. > Generally the only port I trust is console. and I can easily transfer files > to any system that uses > a serial console because of that. I'm not quite understanding that statement. How can I use console if I need to interact with the keyboard and see output? Wouldn't that prevent interaction with the emulated machine? How would I tell the emulator that console is the file input? There's just not quite enough in the docs for me to form a coherent picture of how things fit together. The sample config files look like they connect the emulator serial ports to real serial hardware on the PC, but I see no explanation for how files get assocated with the emulated UART - only that it's the default to have files connect to N* AUX (and, as mentioned, I'm only guessing that the AUX port I/O associates with CP/M PUN: and RDR:). Yes, I'm very confused :-) Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 13:59:50 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you can load a file into memory, and regain access to the CP/M command > processor, then the SAVE command could be quite useful. That's what I ended up doing. But, I'd still like to understand how to directly read files from the AUX UART. -- From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Apr 20 14:35:47 2010 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:35:47 +0200 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net> References: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BCE0213.6010505@iais.fraunhofer.de> Fred Cisin schrieb: > If you can load a file into memory, and regain access to the CP/M command > processor, then the SAVE command could be quite useful. > ...unless the program uses overlays, like WordStar, and unless the loaded program overwrites the CCP area. PIP is surely a better option for copy attempts. Holger From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 20 15:18:23 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:18:23 -0700 Subject: DEC DMP-11 SYNC SERIAL INTERFACE MANUALS??? In-Reply-To: <4BCDFA91.2060609@bitsavers.org> References: <7BfbNeCAO18TD12YfcpQuytLoxq6G9UbEDiAiGMwZPo@akmail>, <4BCDFA91.2060609@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BCDA99F.28621.DCDBDB@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2010 at 12:03, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/20/10 10:47 AM, H?lscher wrote: > > Has anyone got manuals for the DEC DMP-11 synchronous serial > > interface? It was a common interface for multipoint DDCMP DECnet > > connections in the era before Ethernet became well-established. > > > > The documents for the DMR-11, which uses the same board set, is on > bitsavers under pdp11/unibus. > > I don't know what the difference is between the DMP and DMR Does anyone know if the powers that be ever got HASP working with the DMP under BSD Unix? Just curious, as it would complete a chapter in my past life. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 15:33:09 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:33:09 -0400 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCD810E.15868.3E63AE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20100420095958.I23923@shell.lmi.net>, <4BCDE0E7.9040006@verizon.net> <4BCD810E.15868.3E63AE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BCE0F85.3030309@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Apr 2010 at 13:14, allison wrote: > > >> The solution is to use the serial console to a PC/other running a >> terminal program so that you always have control-C test (also CTL-Z >> needed to exit pip and write the file.). >> > > I'm assuming that he's at least got DDT. Write some code and be done > with it--8-bit CP/M systems are generally very simple and only rarely > employ anything as involved as interrupt processing. > > --Chuck > > Long term the solution was a Xmodem up/down loader for me so I could use procomm or similar programs on a PC/PDP-11/VAXVMS as terminal. The AUX: device thing requires knowing what the BIOS for that system looks like. I've encountered systems where there was a null driver. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 20 15:43:35 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:43:35 -0700 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCE0F85.3030309@verizon.net> References: , <4BCD810E.15868.3E63AE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BCE0F85.3030309@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BCDAF87.32310.F3EDCD@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2010 at 16:33, allison wrote: > The AUX: device thing requires knowing what the BIOS for that system > looks like. I've encountered systems where there was a null driver. Sure, it wasn't a requirement to implement it and neither was IOBYTE. But I assume that technical documentation exists for the UART/USART that the N* has. By and large, those things are easy to program, even if one's only tool is DDT. You could certainly do the job with less. I'm reminded of the DOS batch files that would create programs with nothing more than ECHO statements. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 15:39:35 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:39:35 -0400 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <15B36F291DEC@dunfield.com> References: <15B36F291DEC@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <4BCE1107.3090309@verizon.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: >>>> You can "mount" files for input/output over the virtual serial port. >>>> This >>>> means you can mount a file then receive from it into CP/M just like you >>>> would have done with an external PC and TTY emulator (but without the >>>> syncronization problems). >>>> >>> Maybe I'm just being dense, but I cannot seem to get this working. I >>> hit F3 to stop, then F7 whereupon I mount the input file. Then I 'g' >>> back to CP/M and try: >>> >>> A>PIP B:TEST.HEX=RDR: >>> >>> At this point it just hangs and will not respond to Ctrl-C. If I >>> reboot the emulator I find an empty TEXT.$$$ file on the target disk. >>> > > >> Is anything actually hooked up to the reader?? This is both a software >> question and hardware. >> >> Generally the only port I trust is console. and I can easily transfer >> files to any system that uses >> a serial console because of that. >> > > Yeah! - that appears to be the case. I use this technique lots under NorthStar > DOS (where I have utilities that can read/write to any of the I/O devices), > and I *assumed* that the Horizon implementations of CP/M would have at least > one input device pointed at the secondary serial port - however this appears > to NOT be the case :-( > > Depends on what implementation you have. I have three different commercial ones with differing behavior and one I built with interrupt driven (buffered) IO. It's more what the BIOS writer did than what CP/M can do. Most BIOS are near minimal implementation. > I've made two additions to my HORIZON support package which should help you > out: > > 1) I've added a small 'CPM' utility which takes a file on your PC and converts > it into an Intel HEX format download file origined at address 0100 (the CP/M > TPA) and padded to a multiple of 256 bytes with 0x1A (EOF) characters. > - you can then boot CP/M, halt the simulation, 'L'oad this file, resume > simulation and 'SAVE' the TPA to a CP/M file, effectively importing the file > to the CP/M disk. This method is very fast and easy, but is limited to files > the size of your CP/M TPA or less. > > A handy tool. CP/M is simple and the easiest way is through the console port and using PIP or DDT (hand entered simple program) to do console input capture. Then a simple modem program that does Xmodem transfers will be the next level for transfers. Allison > 2) I've added a "Reader" option to the simulator Mount command, which mounts a > file to be read as if it were typed at the keyboard (normally the console). > When the file hits EOF it is unmounted and normal keyboard operation resumes. > You can use this like you would the paper tape reader of an ASR33 - just > PIP CON: into the file you want, then mount the file on the Reader (which > automatically starts it) - after it is finished, you must press ^Z to send > the EOF character from the keyboard, which will cause PIP to close the file. > > The updated package has been uploaded to the site. > > Hope this works for you. > > regards, > Dave > > -- > dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 20 15:54:42 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 16:54:42 -0400 Subject: DEC DMP-11 SYNC SERIAL INTERFACE MANUALS??? In-Reply-To: <4BCDA99F.28621.DCDBDB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7BfbNeCAO18TD12YfcpQuytLoxq6G9UbEDiAiGMwZPo@akmail>, <4BCDFA91.2060609@bitsavers.org> <4BCDA99F.28621.DCDBDB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <53269E16-C40A-403B-978F-8D31469EE55C@neurotica.com> On Apr 20, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Has anyone got manuals for the DEC DMP-11 synchronous serial >>> interface? It was a common interface for multipoint DDCMP DECnet >>> connections in the era before Ethernet became well-established. >>> >> >> The documents for the DMR-11, which uses the same board set, is on >> bitsavers under pdp11/unibus. >> >> I don't know what the difference is between the DMP and DMR > > Does anyone know if the powers that be ever got HASP working with the > DMP under BSD Unix? Just curious, as it would complete a chapter in > my past life. HASP meaning the predecessor of JES2, with the DMP speaking RJE? That'd be neat. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Apr 20 15:55:10 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:55:10 -0600 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:52:28 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Steve Maddison writes: > Richard wrote: > > "Dump" is right. > > > > Without an explanation of the schema this isn't very useful. > > It's not that bad. The data model is pretty simple (I count only 11 > tables) and the field names are reasonably descriptive. It wouldn't be > too hard to make sense of it. Well, I don't have time to invest in reverse engineering someone's schema in order to do something with it. The bar for contributing is pretty high right now. I'm happy to collaborate with someone who has put in the time to figure out the schema and now can explain it to me so we can collaborate on some code for a community site that allows expansion without central authority. I think that was the downfall of the original manx. It required everything to go through a single person who eventually became too busy and/or uninterested. If we had something to which we could all contribute as a community, I think it would have more legs. Eventually it'd be nice to just fold it into bitsavers proper. > The blog post announcing the dump hinted that some kind of description > of the database would follow, as would documentation of the various > code and scripts. This was last October though, so I'm not holding my > breath. Yep, saw that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 20 16:06:14 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:06:14 -0700 Subject: DEC DMP-11 SYNC SERIAL INTERFACE MANUALS??? In-Reply-To: <53269E16-C40A-403B-978F-8D31469EE55C@neurotica.com> References: <7BfbNeCAO18TD12YfcpQuytLoxq6G9UbEDiAiGMwZPo@akmail>, <4BCDA99F.28621.DCDBDB@cclist.sydex.com>, <53269E16-C40A-403B-978F-8D31469EE55C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BCDB4D6.21670.108AC78@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2010 at 16:54, Dave McGuire wrote: > HASP meaning the predecessor of JES2, with the DMP speaking RJE? > That'd be neat. Yup, we tried; had a 9600 baud leased line and an 11/750 with a DMP- 11 and a package for BSD that claimed to work. Never could get it to work, even with some contracted-for expertise from the guys at Berkeley. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Apr 20 16:13:02 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:13:02 -0400 Subject: DEC DMP-11 SYNC SERIAL INTERFACE MANUALS??? In-Reply-To: <4BCDB4D6.21670.108AC78@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7BfbNeCAO18TD12YfcpQuytLoxq6G9UbEDiAiGMwZPo@akmail>, <4BCDA99F.28621.DCDBDB@cclist.sydex.com>, <53269E16-C40A-403B-978F-8D31469EE55C@neurotica.com> <4BCDB4D6.21670.108AC78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0F6445E5-5934-469A-9664-4A280A3411E2@neurotica.com> On Apr 20, 2010, at 5:06 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> HASP meaning the predecessor of JES2, with the DMP speaking RJE? >> That'd be neat. > > Yup, we tried; had a 9600 baud leased line and an 11/750 with a DMP- > 11 and a package for BSD that claimed to work. Never could get it to > work, even with some contracted-for expertise from the guys at > Berkeley. Hmm, I'd love to try to get that working. I've been doing a bit with HASP under MVT, and JES2 under both MVS and z/OS. I wonder if the RJE stuff is still supported under current MVS. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 20 16:01:32 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 17:01:32 -0400 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BCE162C.6060108@verizon.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, allison wrote: > >> Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> On Mon, 19 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> >>>> You can transfer files via serial port, using PIP, XMODEM etc. >>>> At the most basic level, you can transfer a index hex file load and >>>> save >>>> it. >>>> >>>> You can also use my simulator to transfer files into and out of >>>> images, >>>> and then use NST to transfer those images to the real system. This may >>>> be easier than hooking up serial lines etc. >>>> >>>> You can "mount" files for input/output over the virtual serial >>>> port. This >>>> means you can mount a file then receive from it into CP/M just like >>>> you >>>> would have done with an external PC and TTY emulator (but without the >>>> syncronization problems). >>> >>> Maybe I'm just being dense, but I cannot seem to get this working. >>> I hit F3 to stop, then F7 whereupon I mount the input file. Then I >>> 'g' back to CP/M and try: >>> >>> A>PIP B:TEST.HEX=RDR: >>> >>> At this point it just hangs and will not respond to Ctrl-C. If I >>> reboot the emulator I find an empty TEXT.$$$ file on the target disk. >>> >>> In the debugger, it is simply looping on the UART status register >>> but apparently never seeing anything. >>> >>> I'm not using a config file, which I believe makes the default 'file'. >>> >>> What am I doing wrong? >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >> Is anything actually hooked up to the reader?? This is both a >> software question and hardware. > > There's nothing in the help or docs that really explains where the AUX > port input and output appear under CP/M, so I just assumed (probably > incorrectly) that the input became RDR:. I know under N*DOS I can > print to 1 (from memory) and have it spool to the file, so things on > the emulator side work fine - at least in that direction. > NS*dos is a different animal. That says teh port works but the CP/M implementation you are using may have all or no support for AUX and generally RDR: is a pretty useless IO as it's a wait till char ready loop and there is usually no way to escape that from the console as the OS (actually bios) is in a state where the console is not being looked at, ever! See if you can find UP and DOWN which are trivial programs to transfer files and it was nominally supplied with the Apple Softcard (Z80 for apple ][) but by changing a few bytes in the IO works with anything. >> Generally the only port I trust is console. and I can easily transfer >> files to any system that uses >> a serial console because of that. > > I'm not quite understanding that statement. How can I use console if > I need to interact with the keyboard and see output? Wouldn't that > prevent interaction with the emulated machine? How would I tell the > emulator that console is the file input? There's just not quite > enough in the docs for me to form a coherent picture of how things fit > together. The sample config files look like they connect the emulator > serial ports to real serial hardware on the PC, but I see no > explanation for how files get assocated with the emulated UART - only > that it's the default to have files connect to N* AUX (and, as > mentioned, I'm only guessing that the AUX port I/O associates with > CP/M PUN: and RDR:). > Use a PC modem(terminal emulator) program as the console. Inside the modem(terminal emulator) progam you talk to the CP/M system and can issue command and then from inside the modem program you can send ascii strings hex files or what ever. The idea being you can type CP/M commands or the program can down load ascii or hex files(cut and paste!) and the CP/M system will have no clue if you typed it or the modem program did. With that there are two caveats, the modem program must do character pacing as the CP/M system may get behind and loose stuff. This is especially true if it started writing to disk, NS* CP/M cannot write a disk and poll the terminal IO. You use this optimally _once_ to get a more sophisticated CP/M terminal program going like mdm7, Kermit or similar running on the CP/M side. Then if you do the programming you can talk to another system via the second serial port with the program staying in control. And yes everything you nominally expect a PC and do will not happen on a CP/M system as often the programming or other resources are not there to do things like read a port and write to disk as the same time. Often this means knowing how the software and hardware interact and what can be done and what has to be programed around. The generalized CP/M user manuals are good to start but often the specific BIOS implementation is where you need docs or study that usually means getting down to ASM. The good news is when you get to a certain point and understand how the BIOS and CP/M interact and what is available and how it works in your installation it becomes much easier. > Yes, I'm very confused :-) > Understood. PCs made life severely easy. As someone that still builds and programs from the ground up on Z80 and using CP/M and also doing embedded systems a lot of this working near the iron is second nature. Allison > Steve > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 20 17:45:09 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 15:45:09 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: References: <2EA4EC9F537F46608997ED5EF6B18DF8@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Apr 19, 10 09:50:50 pm, Message-ID: Hi How is the speed controlled of the tape speed? If it is a feedback of some type, the diameter may not need to be exact. If not, knowing the linear speed of the tape and the capstan rotational speed, one could determine the correct diameter. Dwight > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > > > I can't acces my HP 9144 at the moment but I opened up a 7946 whitch has a > > 9144 tapedrive build in. > > And the sizes of the capstan are consistent with the ones you're measured. > > OK... > > > So now it's for me the question where did I measured the other sizes > > ................. > > Hmmm.. If it was HP, it's not something like the roginal size of the > HP98x5 capstan, is it? > > -tony _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 18:14:24 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 00:14:24 +0100 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Reverse engineering it is not too hard. I had a quick look and http://www.archivist.info/manx/ is the result you can see the company list drill into a company and then view the pubhistory table for that company. Were any pages archived anywhere so I know what was doable with the data? Dave Caroline On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Steve Maddison wrote: > Towards the end of last year, the Manx documentation catalogue was > pronounced dead by its maintainer and taken offline. Understandably, > many pleas for a dump of the database followed, and this was > subsequently made available. Thankfully the site was soon up again, > although no longer maintained and apparently missing a few PDFs. > > Since then it seems to have gone quiet. Did anyone end up doing > anything with the dump, or were all the requests for this simply to > ensure that the raw data was preserved? > > Cheers, > > -- > Steve Maddison > http://www.cosam.org/ > From evan at snarc.net Tue Apr 20 19:56:32 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:56:32 -0400 Subject: Bushnell rejoins Atari Message-ID: <4BCE4D40.50506@snarc.net> Atari S.A. announced today that Nolan Bushnell joined its board. Anyone think that will matter? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 20 20:15:46 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 18:15:46 -0700 Subject: Bushnell rejoins Atari In-Reply-To: <4BCE4D40.50506@snarc.net> References: <4BCE4D40.50506@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4BCDEF52.10584.1ED1EB5@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2010 at 20:56, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Atari S.A. announced today that Nolan Bushnell joined its board. > Anyone think that will matter? To whom? Bushnell is just a faint echo perhaps to the young folks of today. On the other hand, it's more of the filthy lucre for Nolan, so yes, it will make a difference--to him. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 20 20:20:04 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:20:04 -0400 Subject: Bushnell rejoins Atari References: <4BCE4D40.50506@snarc.net> <4BCDEF52.10584.1ED1EB5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <83D22800788A427CAABDC05153570523@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Bushnell rejoins Atari > On 20 Apr 2010 at 20:56, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Atari S.A. announced today that Nolan Bushnell joined its board. >> Anyone think that will matter? > > To whom? Bushnell is just a faint echo perhaps to the young folks of > today. On the other hand, it's more of the filthy lucre for Nolan, > so yes, it will make a difference--to him. > > --Chuck > What do board members get paid on average for the little rubber stamping of a job they do? From dave09 at dunfield.com Tue Apr 20 21:35:57 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:35:57 -0500 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCE1107.3090309@verizon.net> References: <15B36F291DEC@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <17B786DA62E3@dunfield.com> > > Yeah! - that appears to be the case. I use this technique lots under NorthStar > > DOS (where I have utilities that can read/write to any of the I/O devices), > > and I *assumed* that the Horizon implementations of CP/M would have at least > > one input device pointed at the secondary serial port - however this appears > > to NOT be the case :-( > > > > > Depends on what implementation you have. I have three different > commercial ones with differing behavior and one I built with > interrupt driven (buffered) IO. It's more what the BIOS writer did > than what CP/M can do. Most BIOS are near minimal implementation. I have three different commercial implentations for the Horizon .. a couple of different versions of the offical NorthStar CP/M release, LifeBoat CP/M for the Horizon and one called Xitan. I tested all of them this afternoon, and none of them appear to have a hardware device mapped to read the secondary serial port -- some of them have devices mapped to write to it, and some of config/gen programs allow you to select you printer to be on either the parallel or secondary serial port... Oddly, I did find code to read it - right next to the code that writes it, but none of the devices activate that code (I set a breakpoint in it and tried "everything"). > A handy tool. CP/M is simple and the easiest way is through the > console port and using PIP or DDT (hand entered simple program) > to do console input capture. > > Then a simple modem program that does Xmodem transfers will > be the next level for transfers. Thats great when you are working with a physical system, however I often find it easier to work under the simulator (single PC)... especially when the hardware has been stored away as most of my collection is - the newly added "mount reader file" feature I mentioned in my last post will let you do the PIP thing by stuffing a file in via the console interface. I wonder if any of the multi-tasking OS's capable of running DOS software support virtual com port connections between sessions ... this would let you run the simulator and a terminal emulator capable of xmodem etc. transfers on the same PC. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 20 20:54:32 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:54:32 -0500 Subject: Bushnell rejoins Atari In-Reply-To: <4BCE4D40.50506@snarc.net> References: <4BCE4D40.50506@snarc.net> Message-ID: Dang! There goes all my great times at Chuck E Cheese.... > Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 20:56:32 -0400 > From: evan at snarc.net > To: > Subject: Bushnell rejoins Atari > > Atari S.A. announced today that Nolan Bushnell joined its board. Anyone > think that will matter? _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 From dave09 at dunfield.com Tue Apr 20 21:58:02 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 21:58:02 -0500 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: <4BCDAA07.1010005@verizon.net> Message-ID: <17CB68155ECD@dunfield.com> > > Generally the only port I trust is console. and I can easily transfer files > > to any system that uses > > a serial console because of that. > > I'm not quite understanding that statement. How can I use console if I > need to interact with the keyboard and see output? Wouldn't that prevent > interaction with the emulated machine? How would I tell the emulator that > console is the file input? There's just not quite enough in the docs for > me to form a coherent picture of how things fit together. The sample > config files look like they connect the emulator serial ports to real > serial hardware on the PC, but I see no explanation for how files get > assocated with the emulated UART - only that it's the default to have > files connect to N* AUX (and, as mentioned, I'm only guessing that the AUX > port I/O associates with CP/M PUN: and RDR:). What Allison is saying is that the console is the only interface that you can rely on (otherwise the system doesn't work) - anything else may or may not be implemented by the particular BIOS that you are using. I'll add that you can only rely on the console to transfer printable ASCII characters and a few common control characters. In the "good ole days" you would read a paper tape on an ASR33 (ASCII teletype with integrated tape reader) by doing: PIP MY.FIL=CON: and then start the reader - it would "type" the content of the tape into the file and when it was done, you typed control-Z to send the EOF character, PIP would write the file and return to the command prompt. With more modern equipment, you can replicate this behaviour with a TTY program on a PC that supports ASCII upload - you execute whatever command on the target system you need to accept the data from the console, then tell the TTY program to send the ASCII file (and press ^Z at the end if needed) - same idea. I'm not sure if you are taking about my simulator or not, but if you are, then the default config is that the console serial port communicates with the PC keyboard/video display, and the secondary serial port communicates with mounted files. The simulator is however VERY flexible in it's I/O configuration, and you can set up pretty much any type of virtual UART you would like at any address you like and it can communicate with kbd/video, mounted files or real serial ports. You can also map simple I/O accesses into the PC address map to access non-uart devices if you like. I provide sample "command option" files with the I/O configuration options needed to direct the secondary virtual 8251 serial port to COM1, and also to direct the primary 8251 serial port (console) to a PC com port. The update that I posted today has an addtional feature that for the virtual uart that you have configured to talk to the PC keyboard and video (normally the console), you can mount a "reader file" which acts just like a paper tape being read into an ASR33 - it gets "typed" into the console. This will let you PIP files into the system with only the console device working. It has an advantage over serial console/TTY emulator in that the reader-file is automatically synced to the I/O requests made to the virtual uart - so no risk of overrun if the system get busy accessing the disk etc. Btw - the simulator can only control what Z80 virtual I/O addresses and bit patterns map to data/status reads/writes with physical hardware on the PC - it does not control how the CP/M devices are mapped to that virtual I/O... That is controlled by the BIOS of the CP/M implementation you are using. In this case, the simulator provides access to mounted files via the secondary UART, however the CP/M BIOS apparently does not provide a driver to read from that device. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 20 21:21:24 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:21:24 -0400 Subject: Bushnell rejoins Atari In-Reply-To: <4BCE4D40.50506@snarc.net> References: <4BCE4D40.50506@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4BCE6124.5020504@atarimuseum.com> Its a PR stunt, nothing more. Nolan has no experience in online gaming. Just a year ago he was badmouthing online gaming in all of the major vg press sites. He is involved in a failed online game company - it says he's a founder, but I know the guys and he was just brought in for the name and it gave them no bump at all. Atari is having a tough enough time as it is. If they were to actually take advice from Bushnell, they'll just hasten their demise. He had a chance of luck with Atari and barely kept it solvent until Warner Comm bought it in 1976, and Pizza time only lasted for 4 years before it failed. He hasn't had any success since, in fact one company - Androbots put him into perpetual debt for 15 years and in the end cost him all of his assets and his Woodside Mansion (the old Folgers Estate) because Nolan borrowed against an IPO that never went through and when the margin call came - he spent the $10mill and couldn't pay it back, in the end he paid nearly $30mill in principle and interest to get it paid off. Plus Nolan's myths are all being shattered in the past couple of years - like he stole the idea for TV tennis for Pong from Ralph Baer/Magnavox, he even tried to file a patent to cover his ass which fell through in court. He claimed he designed and built Computer Space and built it in his daughters bedroom. Ted Dabney finally came out of seclusion and revealed that Nolan didn't even understand Vertical Hold and that Ted designed Computer Space and it was done in Ted's house, not Nolan's. Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > Atari S.A. announced today that Nolan Bushnell joined its board. > Anyone think that will matter? > From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue Apr 20 22:17:40 2010 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:17:40 +1000 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hastily imported it into SQLite so I could use SQLite Manager (a Firefox add-on) to have a look around - you can download the 10MB zipfile here of the SQLite database (it expands to about 130MB). http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/files From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 21 00:05:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 22:05:15 -0700 Subject: Bushnell rejoins Atari In-Reply-To: <83D22800788A427CAABDC05153570523@dell8300> References: <4BCE4D40.50506@snarc.net>, <83D22800788A427CAABDC05153570523@dell8300> Message-ID: <4BCE251B.15240.1AFA11@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Apr 2010 at 21:20, Teo Zenios wrote: > What do board members get paid on average for the little rubber > stamping of a job they do? You'd be surprised--directors generally dictate their own salaries. But I don't know what Nolan's getting--he could also be getting paid in "trading stamps" (stock options) if the firm is low on cash. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 21 00:25:48 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 23:25:48 -0600 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Apr 2010 00:14:24 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Dave Caroline writes: > Were any pages archived anywhere so I know what was doable with the data? By pages, do you mean the underlying scripts that ran the web site? If so, then no I don't believe any of that source code has been released. It was hard enough to get a database dump. That tells me that the original author (Paul something? Sorry, I've forgotten his name and I only have a "manx" email address for him) has basically abandoned this and has no more energy to do anything about it. I can sympathize because I've also been on projects that drained me to zero and at that point you don't have any more energy to even help people who want to continue it. Basically, I consider it lucky that we got the database and we should consider that any community based web site to resurrect the functionality will have to be created from scratch. I would contribute to such an effort, but I don't have time to spearhead it on my own. We should organize a group of willing contributors and divvy up the work so we can coordinate. I'd suggest making it an open source project with distributed version control to it as easy as possible to contribute. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 21 01:15:32 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 23:15:32 -0700 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCE162C.6060108@verizon.net> Message-ID: I would not be surprised if there was an implementation of MEX or IMP? For N* with CP/M, don't know about N*Dos. ISTR that 99% of the code is the same for all systems, just the overlay for the communications ports differed. There's also Kermit :) a great fallback to have around. And ISTR there was a configurable XMODEM.COM out there for CP/M From steve at cosam.org Wed Apr 21 02:53:36 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:53:36 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Richard wrote: > Well, I don't have time to invest in reverse engineering someone's > schema in order to do something with it. ?The bar for contributing is > pretty high right now. ?I'm happy to collaborate with someone who has > put in the time to figure out the schema and now can explain it to me > so we can collaborate on some code for a community site that allows > expansion without central authority. I'll have a stab at this over the next few days. Picking out the foreign keys shouldn't be too difficult, but I'm not planning to go into great detail, just enough to understand the current situation. A new front-end wouldn't necessarily need to use an identical data model, after all. > I think that was the downfall of the original manx. ?It required > everything to go through a single person who eventually became too > busy and/or uninterested. ?If we had something to which we could all > contribute as a community, I think it would have more legs. Couldn't agree more. > Eventually it'd be nice to just fold it into bitsavers proper. I don't know if that's a good thing to aim for (as in I actually do not know, I'm by no means against it). -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 03:09:36 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:09:36 +0100 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The data could be a valid extra to the stuff I have online already at www.collection.archivist.info that database is a bit different as it relies on the search engine to a greater extent. If I add it I just need to add some updating methods. Dave Caroline On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 6:25 AM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Dave Caroline ?writes: > >> Were any pages archived anywhere so I know what was doable with the data? > > By pages, do you mean the underlying scripts that ran the web site? > > If so, then no I don't believe any of that source code has been > released. ?It was hard enough to get a database dump. ?That tells me > that the original author (Paul something? ?Sorry, I've forgotten his > name and I only have a "manx" email address for him) has basically > abandoned this and has no more energy to do anything about it. > > I can sympathize because I've also been on projects that drained me to > zero and at that point you don't have any more energy to even help > people who want to continue it. > > Basically, I consider it lucky that we got the database and we should > consider that any community based web site to resurrect the > functionality will have to be created from scratch. > > I would contribute to such an effort, but I don't have time to > spearhead it on my own. ?We should organize a group of willing > contributors and divvy up the work so we can coordinate. ?I'd suggest > making it an open source project with distributed version control to > it as easy as possible to contribute. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From steve at cosam.org Wed Apr 21 03:12:19 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:12:19 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Richard wrote: >?Dave Caroline?writes: >> Were any pages archived anywhere so I know what was doable with the data? > > By pages, do you mean the underlying scripts that ran the web site? OTOH, if you mean the output of the scripts, the originals are still online. http://www.vt100.net/manx/ > I would contribute to such an effort, but I don't have time to > spearhead it on my own. ?We should organize a group of willing > contributors and divvy up the work so we can coordinate. I'm in a similar position. The point of my original question was to gauge whether anything had already been done and, if not, think about what it would take to get this moving. >?I'd suggest > making it an open source project with distributed version control to > it as easy as possible to contribute. Yes, I think openness would be the key here. I would go as far as to suggest that a design requirement would be that the site could easily be picked up and moved to a different host or, better yet, replicated from the get-go. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From steve at cosam.org Wed Apr 21 05:47:30 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:47:30 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve Maddison wrote: > Richard wrote: >> Well, I don't have time to invest in reverse engineering someone's >> schema in order to do something with it. ?The bar for contributing is >> pretty high right now. ?I'm happy to collaborate with someone who has >> put in the time to figure out the schema and now can explain it to me >> so we can collaborate on some code for a community site that allows >> expansion without central authority. > > I'll have a stab at this over the next few days. Picking out the > foreign keys shouldn't be too difficult, but I'm not planning to go > into great detail, just enough to understand the current situation. Here's what I make of it, based purely on the table definitions as yet. http://sources.cosam.org/svn/manx/manx_dm_orig.pdf There's a Visio file in the same directory. A lot of it is pretty self-explanatory, but that PUBHISTORY table could use some deciphering. I'll look into that next. I don't want to bore the entire list with the gory details. If this starts getting much more involved, it may be appreciated if the discussion were to continue elsewhere... -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 06:49:16 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:49:16 -0400 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCDAF87.32310.F3EDCD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BCD810E.15868.3E63AE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BCE0F85.3030309@verizon.net> <4BCDAF87.32310.F3EDCD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BCEE63C.3020903@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Apr 2010 at 16:33, allison wrote: > > > >> The AUX: device thing requires knowing what the BIOS for that system >> looks like. I've encountered systems where there was a null driver. >> > > Sure, it wasn't a requirement to implement it and neither was IOBYTE. > But I assume that technical documentation exists for the UART/USART > that the N* has. By and large, those things are easy to program, > even if one's only tool is DDT. You could certainly do the job with > less. > > By null I meant if you read RDR: or wrote to PUN: the data would go to the bit bucket and not to any device. Allison > I'm reminded of the DOS batch files that would create programs with > nothing more than ECHO statements. > > --Chuck > > > From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 08:39:43 2010 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:39:43 -0400 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <97858853961609016@unknownmsgid> References: <97858853961609016@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Wild guess - try passive mode? Run FTP, type LITERAL PASV, then OPEN ftp.vaxy.whatever On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I am trying to run the ftp command on Windows (7) against an FTP server on > VMS 7.3 (the UCX version of TCP/IP). I am sure this has worked in the past, > but now when I try it connects successfully but VMS never sends back the > login prompt. I tried running FTP on the VMS system back to itself and the > prompt came straight back. > > Sniffing the packets I see a SYN from Windows, SYN-ACK from VMS and then > ACK > back to VMS. 60 seconds later Windows resets the connection. > > Has anyone else seen this and know the solution? > > Thanks > > Rob > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 08:51:18 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:51:18 -0400 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: References: <97858853961609016@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4BCF02D6.5010800@gmail.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > Wild guess - try passive mode? Run FTP, type LITERAL PASV, then OPEN > ftp.vaxy.whatever I doubt it's that, because, AFAIK, FTP uses the control connection for login, not a data connection. Peace... Sridhar > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Rob Jarrattwrote: > >> I am trying to run the ftp command on Windows (7) against an FTP server on >> VMS 7.3 (the UCX version of TCP/IP). I am sure this has worked in the past, >> but now when I try it connects successfully but VMS never sends back the >> login prompt. I tried running FTP on the VMS system back to itself and the >> prompt came straight back. >> >> Sniffing the packets I see a SYN from Windows, SYN-ACK from VMS and then >> ACK >> back to VMS. 60 seconds later Windows resets the connection. >> >> Has anyone else seen this and know the solution? >> >> Thanks >> >> Rob >> From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 21 10:14:48 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:14:48 -0600 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Apr 2010 12:47:30 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Steve Maddison writes: > Here's what I make of it, based purely on the table definitions as yet. > > http://sources.cosam.org/svn/manx/manx_dm_orig.pdf I get no response from that host. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 06:34:24 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <15B36F291DEC@dunfield.com> References: <15B36F291DEC@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> Maybe I'm just being dense, but I cannot seem to get this working. I >>> hit F3 to stop, then F7 whereupon I mount the input file. Then I 'g' >>> back to CP/M and try: >>> >>> A>PIP B:TEST.HEX=RDR: >>> >>> At this point it just hangs and will not respond to Ctrl-C. If I >>> reboot the emulator I find an empty TEXT.$$$ file on the target disk. > >> Is anything actually hooked up to the reader?? This is both a software >> question and hardware. >> >> Generally the only port I trust is console. and I can easily transfer >> files to any system that uses >> a serial console because of that. > > Yeah! - that appears to be the case. I use this technique lots under NorthStar > DOS (where I have utilities that can read/write to any of the I/O devices), > and I *assumed* that the Horizon implementations of CP/M would have at least > one input device pointed at the secondary serial port - however this appears > to NOT be the case :-( > > I've made two additions to my HORIZON support package which should help you > out: > > 1) I've added a small 'CPM' utility which takes a file on your PC and converts > it into an Intel HEX format download file origined at address 0100 (the CP/M > TPA) and padded to a multiple of 256 bytes with 0x1A (EOF) characters. > - you can then boot CP/M, halt the simulation, 'L'oad this file, resume > simulation and 'SAVE' the TPA to a CP/M file, effectively importing the file > to the CP/M disk. This method is very fast and easy, but is limited to files > the size of your CP/M TPA or less. > > 2) I've added a "Reader" option to the simulator Mount command, which mounts a > file to be read as if it were typed at the keyboard (normally the console). > When the file hits EOF it is unmounted and normal keyboard operation resumes. > You can use this like you would the paper tape reader of an ASR33 - just > PIP CON: into the file you want, then mount the file on the Reader (which > automatically starts it) - after it is finished, you must press ^Z to send > the EOF character from the keyboard, which will cause PIP to close the file. > > The updated package has been uploaded to the site. > > Hope this works for you. Wow, thanks, Dave. I will give that a try. -- From steve at cosam.org Wed Apr 21 11:06:07 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:06:07 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Richard wrote: > ? ?Steve Maddison ?writes: >> Here's what I make of it, based purely on the table definitions as yet. >> >> ? http://sources.cosam.org/svn/manx/manx_dm_orig.pdf > > I get no response from that host. Odd. It certainly appears to be up from here. If you still can't reach it, let me know and I'll mail it. I also uploaded my annotated version of the table definitions (chop off the file name for a directory index). Anyone else have trouble reaching this? -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Wed Apr 21 11:23:15 2010 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:23:15 +0200 Subject: DEC DMP-11 SYNC SERIAL INTERFACE MANUALS??? Message-ID: > On 4/20/10 10:47 AM, H?lscher wrote: >> Has anyone got manuals for the DEC DMP-11 synchronous serial interface? >> It was a common interface for multipoint DDCMP DECnet connections in the >> era before Ethernet became well-established. >> > On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:03:45, Al Kossow wrote: > The documents for the DMR-11, which uses the same board set, is on bitsavers > under pdp11/unibus. > I don't know what the difference is between the DMP and DMR AA-H803C-TE DECnet-VAX System Manager's Guide says on page 2-45: "DECnet-VAX supports four DDCMP line devices: the DMC-11, the DMR-11, the DMP-11, and the DMF-32 synchronous line. The DMC-11 and the DMR-11 are point-to-point line devices and are considered identical. The DMP-11 is either a multipoint control, or multipoint tributary line device. The DMF-32 synchronous line is a point-to-point or multipoint tributary line device." The boards are identical at the module number level seemingly, but there are most probably different subtypes of the M8207 DMx microprocessor and/or M8203 line units I think the M8207-RA is for the DMR11 and the M8207-YA/YB/YC is for the DMP11. Anyone to confirm or doubt that? Regards, Ulli From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 21 11:24:48 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:24:48 -0700 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BCF26D0.208@bitsavers.org> On 4/21/10 9:06 AM, Steve Maddison wrote: > Anyone else have trouble reaching this? > I got the document OK. Where are the URL's to the actual documents? MANX used to reference a lot of material on bitsavers, for example. Or, did they just keep a local copy? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 21 12:05:37 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:05:37 -0700 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCEE63C.3020903@verizon.net> References: , <4BCDAF87.32310.F3EDCD@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BCEE63C.3020903@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BCECDF1.11995.21B6FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Apr 2010 at 7:49, allison wrote: > By null I meant if you read RDR: or wrote to PUN: the data would go > to the bit bucket and not to any device. Exactly so. If you have, for example, an Amstrad Joyce, there's nowhere to send or receive the data, as there is no (standard) extra port. There's a printer, but that's a horse of a different color and not serial at all. But I've also seem (and been guilty of one or two) CP/M implementations that completely ignore implementing IOBYTE, so that any attempt at redirection using STAT fails. If all you have is a memory-mapped console display and integrated keyboard and printer, IOBYTE makes little sense for most applications. I suppose one could implicitly redirect RDR to the keyboard, again, it makes little sense. PIP has a couple of device names that most CP/M implementations are meaningless (INP: and OUT:) and many others (e.g. UC1:, CRT:) that are known only to PIP. --Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Apr 21 12:13:16 2010 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:13:16 -0400 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BCF322C.90707@sbcglobal.net> ISTR, isn't there an option for command line FTP to disable/enable local echo, or something to that effect? Have you tried a GUI FTP client? Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7600] Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. C:\Program Files\Windows Resource Kits\Tools>ftp /? Transfers files to and from a computer running an FTP server service (sometimes called a daemon). Ftp can be used interactively. FTP [-v] [-d] [-i] [-n] [-g] [-s:filename] [-a] [-A] [-x:sendbuffer] [-r:recvbuf fer] [-b:asyncbuffers] [-w:windowsize] [host] -v Suppresses display of remote server responses. -n Suppresses auto-login upon initial connection. -i Turns off interactive prompting during multiple file transfers. -d Enables debugging. -g Disables filename globbing (see GLOB command). -s:filename Specifies a text file containing FTP commands; the commands will automatically run after FTP starts. -a Use any local interface when binding data connection. -A login as anonymous. -x:send sockbuf Overrides the default SO_SNDBUF size of 8192. -r:recv sockbuf Overrides the default SO_RCVBUF size of 8192. -b:async count Overrides the default async count of 3 -w:windowsize Overrides the default transfer buffer size of 65535. host Specifies the host name or IP address of the remote host to connect to. Notes: - mget and mput commands take y/n/q for yes/no/quit. - Use Control-C to abort commands. C:\Program Files\Windows Resource Kits\Tools> Message: 11 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:39:43 -0400 From: Jason McBrien Subject: Re: FTP from Windows to VMS To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Wild guess - try passive mode? Run FTP, type LITERAL PASV, then OPEN ftp.vaxy.whatever On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I am trying to run the ftp command on Windows (7) against an FTP server on > > VMS 7.3 (the UCX version of TCP/IP). I am sure this has worked in the past, > > but now when I try it connects successfully but VMS never sends back the > > login prompt. I tried running FTP on the VMS system back to itself and the > > prompt came straight back. > > > > Sniffing the packets I see a SYN from Windows, SYN-ACK from VMS and then > > ACK > > back to VMS. 60 seconds later Windows resets the connection. > > > > Has anyone else seen this and know the solution? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ Registered Linux user number 464583 "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From steve at cosam.org Wed Apr 21 12:37:44 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:37:44 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: <4BCF26D0.208@bitsavers.org> References: <4BCF26D0.208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al Kossow wrote: > I got the document OK. Where are the URL's to the actual documents? The URLs are in the "COPY" table. > MANX used to reference a lot of material on bitsavers, for example. > Or, did they just keep a local copy? The author did have an archive of documents on the same site, which sadly seems to have disappeared. The majority of the documents were however just linked to. In the case of bitsavers, several mirrors are also included. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 21 13:35:38 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:35:38 -0700 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: <4BCF26D0.208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BCF457A.8090307@bitsavers.org> On 4/21/10 10:37 AM, Steve Maddison wrote: > The author did have an archive of documents on the same site, which > sadly seems to have disappeared. It would be good to sort out the sources and make sure the non-bitsavers material is rounded up. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 21 12:58:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:58:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Suggestions for repairing HP tape drive capstans? In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Apr 20, 10 03:45:09 pm Message-ID: > > > > Hi > How is the speed controlled of the tape speed? > If it is a feedback of some type=2C the diameter may not need to be exact. It is a closed-loop system (with feedback), but unfortunaetely the feedback is not taken off the tape. The drive motor is a permanent-magnet DC motor. The capstan roller is directly fitted (glued :-() to the spindle of that motor, and below it is a slotted disk (I have no idea how mant slots, but it's a lot, possibly around 200). There's a slotted opto-switch fitted to the motor housing that straddles this disk. The electronics varies with the model of drive. But it's somewhat similar in all cases -- there's a 6805 microcontroller that takes the input from this sensor (in the 9144 for some unknown reason, the esnsor feeds a 2917 F->V chip, the output of that is fed into am ADC circuit, the 9142 does things more coventionally, and I don't know about the 9145 -- yet). The microcontroller drives a DAC which then drives a full-H driver that feeds this motor. So the spindle speed is regulated, but the tape speed also depends on the diameter of the capstan roller. > If not=2C knowing the linear speed of the tape and the > capstan rotational speed=2C one could determine the correct diameter. I;'d have to measure a couple of rollers in the tape cartridge too (but that would be easy enough). I could easily measure the rotational speed of the spindle. All I need to find out is the correct tape speed for these drives. IOt may be in HP Journal or soemthing like that... -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 13:41:50 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:41:50 +0100 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: <4BCF457A.8090307@bitsavers.org> References: <4BCF26D0.208@bitsavers.org> <4BCF457A.8090307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: look in the table COPY it has the urls to the docs Dave Caroline On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/21/10 10:37 AM, Steve Maddison wrote: > >> The author did have an archive of documents on the same site, which >> sadly seems to have disappeared. > > It would be good to sort out the sources and make sure the non-bitsavers > material is rounded up. > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 13:46:37 2010 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:46:37 +0100 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: <4BCF457A.8090307@bitsavers.org> References: <4BCF26D0.208@bitsavers.org> <4BCF457A.8090307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: select sum(size) from COPY; +-------------+ | sum(size) | +-------------+ | 53420366153 | +-------------+ for your interest the space required :) Dave Caroline From dave09 at dunfield.com Wed Apr 21 14:54:07 2010 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:54:07 -0500 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: <15B36F291DEC@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <1B6DE8C31A17@dunfield.com> > > I've made two additions to my HORIZON support package which should help you > > out: > > > > 1) I've added a small 'CPM' utility which takes a file on your PC and converts > > it into an Intel HEX format download file origined at address 0100 (the CP/M > > TPA) and padded to a multiple of 256 bytes with 0x1A (EOF) characters. > > - you can then boot CP/M, halt the simulation, 'L'oad this file, resume > > simulation and 'SAVE' the TPA to a CP/M file, effectively importing the file > > to the CP/M disk. This method is very fast and easy, but is limited to files > > the size of your CP/M TPA or less. > > > > 2) I've added a "Reader" option to the simulator Mount command, which mounts a > > file to be read as if it were typed at the keyboard (normally the console). > > When the file hits EOF it is unmounted and normal keyboard operation resumes. > > You can use this like you would the paper tape reader of an ASR33 - just > > PIP CON: into the file you want, then mount the file on the Reader (which > > automatically starts it) - after it is finished, you must press ^Z to send > > the EOF character from the keyboard, which will cause PIP to close the file. > > > > The updated package has been uploaded to the site. > > > > Hope this works for you. > > Wow, thanks, Dave. I will give that a try. I may have discovered another source of your confusion ... this won't help with the CP/M BIOS access issue, however I decided to run through all the options this morning and make sure the simulator was working as advertised, and I discovered some inconsistancies, documentation errors, and errors in the sample .CMD files which show how to configure I/O devices ... I changed the simulator a while back to allow more I/O devices to be configured and apparently only partially updated the support files.... my bad! So I spent a couple of hours cleaning everything up and testing it, and have just uploaded a revised version of the simulator to the web site - sorry to make you download it again. The changes are: - I've changed I/O definitions to be simpler and more consistant, in particular you no longer specify a PC I/O address for virtual devices which don't have a physical address on the PC, and I rearranged some definitions so that the ordering of the TXready and RXready bit toggles is consistant for all defs. - I expanded the "Reader" feature mentioned above, which now shows as "Console input" and "Console output" - "Console input" works as described above (enters the file as if typed at the keyboard), and "Console output" gives you the ability to capture the simulator console output into a PC file (Which it will do until you manually close it via the mount menu). NOTE that in this case "console" refers to the PC keyboard/video, which is *usually* the CP/M console under the simulator, but this can be reconfigured (either in CP/M or by simulator I/O definitions) - the simulator doesn't actually know what CP/M considers "the console" - it just has the keyboard/video attached to a particular virtual 8251 device in it's default configuration. - I changed the default definition for the secondary 8251 status to indicate the availability to a mounted output file via the DSR bit instead of TXready - now TXready always shows "ready". This means that you can happily write to the secondary serial port whether or not an output file is mounted (if not, the output is discarded). This resolves a confusing issue where some disks which output to the secondary serial port at boot (NorthStar CP/M for one) appeared to hang until you mounted an output file. If you need the former behaviour (output file indicated by TXready) you can still have it by providing your own I/O definition(s). - I've corrected the README, Online help and sample .CMD files to fix several documentation errors. - I have tested all of the above and it appears to work and be (at least mostly :-) correct. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Classic Computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 21 14:39:57 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:39:57 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <4BCF322C.90707@sbcglobal.net> References: <4BCF322C.90707@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <01c101cae18a$6e0b6f20$4a224d60$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> REPLY/ENA did not show me any messages (I already had the console open in any case). Tried using Internet Explorer ftp://blah, after a while this comes up on the console: %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 21-APR-2010 20:03:59.18 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on VAX3 Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on VAX3, system id: 1031 Auditable event: Network login failure Event time: 21-APR-2010 20:03:59.14 PID: 2020021B Process name: TCPIP$FTPC00005 Username: anonymous Remote nodename: 192.168.0.15 Remote node id: 3232235535 (0.15) Remote username: FTP_C0A8000F Status: %LOGIN-F-NOSUCHUSER, no such user After a further while (more than a minute) the browser shows me the contents of sys$manager, but it does not always seem to work (will try to get another packet sniff a bit later) I don't think this is a firewall issue (which would affect active mode I think) because I turned it off on the Windows machine. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Woyciesjes > Sent: 21 April 2010 18:13 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: FTP from Windows to VMS > > ISTR, isn't there an option for command line FTP to > disable/enable > local echo, or something to that effect? Have you tried a GUI FTP > client? > > Microsoft Windows [Version 6.1.7600] > Copyright (c) 2009 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. > > C:\Program Files\Windows Resource Kits\Tools>ftp /? > > Transfers files to and from a computer running an FTP server service > (sometimes called a daemon). Ftp can be used interactively. > > FTP [-v] [-d] [-i] [-n] [-g] [-s:filename] [-a] [-A] [-x:sendbuffer] > [-r:recvbuf > fer] [-b:asyncbuffers] [-w:windowsize] [host] > > -v Suppresses display of remote server responses. > -n Suppresses auto-login upon initial connection. > -i Turns off interactive prompting during multiple file > transfers. > -d Enables debugging. > -g Disables filename globbing (see GLOB command). > -s:filename Specifies a text file containing FTP commands; the > commands will automatically run after FTP starts. > -a Use any local interface when binding data > connection. > -A login as anonymous. > -x:send sockbuf Overrides the default SO_SNDBUF size of 8192. > -r:recv sockbuf Overrides the default SO_RCVBUF size of 8192. > -b:async count Overrides the default async count of 3 > -w:windowsize Overrides the default transfer buffer size of 65535. > host Specifies the host name or IP address of the remote > host to connect to. > > Notes: > - mget and mput commands take y/n/q for yes/no/quit. > - Use Control-C to abort commands. > > C:\Program Files\Windows Resource Kits\Tools> > > Message: 11 > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:39:43 -0400 > From: Jason McBrien > Subject: Re: FTP from Windows to VMS > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Wild guess - try passive mode? Run FTP, type LITERAL PASV, then OPEN > ftp.vaxy.whatever > > > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > > > I am trying to run the ftp command on Windows (7) against an FTP > server on > > > VMS 7.3 (the UCX version of TCP/IP). I am sure this has worked in > the past, > > > but now when I try it connects successfully but VMS never sends > back the > > > login prompt. I tried running FTP on the VMS system back to itself > and the > > > prompt came straight back. > > > > > > Sniffing the packets I see a SYN from Windows, SYN-ACK from VMS > and > then > > > ACK > > > back to VMS. 60 seconds later Windows resets the connection. > > > > > > Has anyone else seen this and know the solution? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Rob > > > > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes > --- ICQ# 905818 > --- AIM - woyciesjes > --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ > --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ > Registered Linux user number 464583 > "From there to here, > From here to there, > Funny things > are everywhere." > --- Dr. Seuss From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 14:54:05 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 15:54:05 -0400 Subject: difficulty trying to locate CP/M files XLT80.COM, XLT80.ASM Message-ID: <4BCF57DD.1070702@comcast.net> I'm having difficulty trying to locate this CP/M files, XLT80.COM and XLT80.ASM , this is a Z80/8080 translator. I found the file listed on this archive index http://ftp.gaby.de/pub/cpm/znode51/fog/ I did a site search for this without any luck on www.bitsavers.org/bits/Users_Groups/FOG/ It seems most of the files on there are disk images only. Also did a site search for this without any luck on this Walnut Creek archive http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/cdrom/ Would somebody know of more archives that have original files instead of disk images ? thanks ! =Dan From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 21 15:24:32 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <01c101cae18a$6e0b6f20$4a224d60$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from Rob Jarratt at "Apr 21, 10 08:39:57 pm" Message-ID: <201004212024.o3LKOWVK010336@floodgap.com> > REPLY/ENA did not show me any messages (I already had the console open in > any case). > > Tried using Internet Explorer ftp://blah, after a while this comes up on the > console: > > %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 21-APR-2010 20:03:59.18 %%%%%%%%%%% > Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on VAX3 > Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on VAX3, system id: > 1031 > Auditable event: Network login failure > Event time: 21-APR-2010 20:03:59.14 > PID: 2020021B > Process name: TCPIP$FTPC00005 > Username: anonymous > Remote nodename: 192.168.0.15 > Remote node id: 3232235535 (0.15) > Remote username: FTP_C0A8000F > Status: %LOGIN-F-NOSUCHUSER, no such user Sounds like you don't have anonymous access configured on your server. Try ftp://user:pass at blah -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Travel is important today. The IRS will arrive tomorrow. ---------- From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Apr 21 15:27:59 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: difficulty trying to locate CP/M files XLT80.COM, XLT80.ASM In-Reply-To: <4BCF57DD.1070702@comcast.net> References: <4BCF57DD.1070702@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > I'm having difficulty trying to locate this CP/M files, XLT80.COM and > XLT80.ASM , this is a Z80/8080 translator. Are you dead set on XLT80? I've used XZI/XIZ with good results: http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Hidden/CPM/xiz.zip Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Apr 21 15:49:03 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 14:49:03 -0600 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:06:07 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Steve Maddison writes: > Richard wrote: > > =A0 =A0Steve Maddison =A0writes: > >> Here's what I make of it, based purely on the table definitions as yet. > >> > >> =A0 http://sources.cosam.org/svn/manx/manx_dm_orig.pdf > > > > I get no response from that host. > > Odd. It certainly appears to be up from here. [...] Seems it was a temporary outage. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 21 16:44:07 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:44:07 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <201004212024.o3LKOWVK010336@floodgap.com> References: <01c101cae18a$6e0b6f20$4a224d60$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from Rob Jarratt at "Apr 21, 10 08:39:57 pm" <201004212024.o3LKOWVK010336@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <01d401cae19b$c8830290$598907b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser > Sent: 21 April 2010 21:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: FTP from Windows to VMS > > > REPLY/ENA did not show me any messages (I already had the console > open in > > any case). > > > > Tried using Internet Explorer ftp://blah, after a while this comes up > on the > > console: > > > > %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 21-APR-2010 20:03:59.18 %%%%%%%%%%% > > Message from user AUDIT$SERVER on VAX3 > > Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on VAX3, > system id: > > 1031 > > Auditable event: Network login failure > > Event time: 21-APR-2010 20:03:59.14 > > PID: 2020021B > > Process name: TCPIP$FTPC00005 > > Username: anonymous > > Remote nodename: 192.168.0.15 > > Remote node id: 3232235535 (0.15) > > Remote username: FTP_C0A8000F > > Status: %LOGIN-F-NOSUCHUSER, no such user > > Sounds like you don't have anonymous access configured on your server. > Try > > ftp://user:pass at blah > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- FORTUNE: Travel is important today. The IRS will arrive tomorrow. -- > -------- Regrettably that did not help either, I think it is something more fundamental than that. Does the following tell you anything? TCPIP> sh service ftp /fu Service: FTP State: Enabled Port: 21 Protocol: TCP Address: 0.0.0.0 Inactivity: 5 User_name: TCPIP$FTP Process: TCPIP$FTP Limit: 10 Active: 1 Peak: 3 File: TCPIP$SYSTEM:TCPIP$FTP_RUN.COM Flags: None Socket Opts: Rcheck Scheck Receive: 0 Send: 0 Log Opts: Acpt Actv Dactv Conn Error Exit Logi Logo Mdfy Rjct TimO Addr File: SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TCPIP$FTP]TCPIP$FTP_RUN.LOG Security Reject msg: not defined Accept host: 0.0.0.0 Accept netw: 0.0.0.0 Regards Rob From steve at cosam.org Wed Apr 21 16:49:08 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:49:08 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So, assuming the way forward is to build a new system to host this information, what kind of features would people like to see? A few things I've been mulling over: * Search on part numbers, document numbers, keywords, etc. Globally and per manufacturer. * Interface through which documents and related data (TOC, etc.) can be submitted, individually or in bulk. * Some kind of moderation/approval system for above. * Interfaces/scripts to (partially) automate submissions via feeds from known archives. * Replication of the entire system to mirrors, or at least the ability to pack the whole shebang up and move it to a different host with relative ease. * Ability to upload images of components/modules/machines. As far as design goes, I'm thinking along the lines of a central library that can be used by both a web-based front end and any scripts necessary for maintenance. Where do we go from here? I'd be happy to contribute in terms of design, coding and hosting of a version control repository, maybe even the finished system itself. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 21 17:13:07 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:13:07 +0100 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: <4BCF26D0.208@bitsavers.org> <4BCF457A.8090307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BCF7873.1000107@philpem.me.uk> Dave Caroline wrote: > select sum(size) from COPY; > +-------------+ > | sum(size) | > +-------------+ > | 53420366153 | > +-------------+ > for your interest the space required :) 50GB? That's not too bad. The GCC Subversion repository (including all change history) is about 12GB, and that "only" took two days to download. Thank $DEITY for always-on servers and DC-rail battery back-up (yep, the server runs from 12V DC). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Apr 21 17:35:14 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:35:14 -0400 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCECDF1.11995.21B6FB@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BCDAF87.32310.F3EDCD@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BCEE63C.3020903@verizon.net> <4BCECDF1.11995.21B6FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BCF7DA2.2070009@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Apr 2010 at 7:49, allison wrote: > > >> By null I meant if you read RDR: or wrote to PUN: the data would go >> to the bit bucket and not to any device. >> > > Exactly so. If you have, for example, an Amstrad Joyce, there's > nowhere to send or receive the data, as there is no (standard) extra > port. There's a printer, but that's a horse of a different color and > not serial at all. > On some it's not there and others not present and that applies to PRN:, PUN:, RDR:. On systems I build and play with the BDOS is often a fresh assembly rather than an old image and the first fix is to make punch and reader call table handle them as NUL (move data to A and return no error). That prevents hangs needing reset or a timeout loop in the driver that takes forever. > But I've also seem (and been guilty of one or two) CP/M > implementations that completely ignore implementing IOBYTE, so that > any attempt at redirection using STAT fails. If all you have is a > memory-mapped console display and integrated keyboard and printer, > IOBYTE makes little sense for most applications. I suppose one could > implicitly redirect RDR to the keyboard, again, it makes little > sense. > > I've also done that. That means all devices are console or null. However I find implement the console portion of IObyte is handy as that can easily make the console redirectable at both input and output level. That works well on NS as there are two SIO and printer(or some parallel thingie. > PIP has a couple of device names that most CP/M implementations are > meaningless (INP: and OUT:) and many others (e.g. UC1:, CRT:) that > are known only to PIP. > > IN and OUT are devices internal to a patch area of pip and makes it easy to create "pipmodem". The others the BIOS can work with if IObyte is implmented. Why do IObyte? Because it makes CP/M IO programatically easy and sidesteps all of the problems of IO hangs. Simple file printer: Get command line Open file(s) to print set IObyte console to point to printer device for OUTPUT transfer file on EOF reset IObyte to previous setting. exit. simple terminal program: DO test constat and fetch conin byte if present flip IO byte output char to conout test constat and fetch conin byte if present flip IO byte and output char to conout while conin not "CTRL-C" exit. The drivers for logical conin, conout and constat can be pointed to the logical devices enumerated in the IObyte field bits and an point to one of 4 devices or device combinations, same for Punch, Reader, and LIST bit fields. This can be controlled from user via STAT. It's easy enough to create an ASSIGN tool to modify IO byte as well as we are talking about a single byte at 0003H and maybe in the BIOS if user want it to remain across boots. Likely overkill answer but it's often annoying to see CP/M implementations that leave out very useful bells and whistles. Allison > --Chuck > > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 21 17:35:34 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 23:35:34 +0100 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BCF7DB6.60207@philpem.me.uk> Steve Maddison wrote: > So, assuming the way forward is to build a new system to host this > information, what kind of features would people like to see? A few > things I've been mulling over: At the risk of provoking a bout of "creeping featurism", it would be nice if this system could track books, journals and so forth, and not just reference manuals. That is, it would be nice to have the option of: - Tree-based navigation. So I could navigate through, say: BYTE => 1979 => January => [TOC] - Tables of contents (where available) for books, journals, etc. Very handy when you're looking for a specific article and don't know where it is. - Open-source, with as few dependencies as possible. PHP+PDO would be my choice (maybe PHP+CodeIgniter). Should be possible to install a version on a "home" server or desktop machine (Linux/OSX box?) to play with. - XML-based API. Make the data available to other systems. Maybe limit this to registered users to prevent (or at least reduce the likelihood of) data-scraping and the associated bandwidth/CPU costs. > * Replication of the entire system to mirrors, or at least the ability > to pack the whole shebang up and move it to a different host with > relative ease. Mysqldump and a 15-minute (or whatever) period each day when the DBs sync against each other? > Where do we go from here? I'd be happy to contribute in terms of > design, coding and hosting of a version control repository, maybe even > the finished system itself. I'd be happy to contribute hosting, development time and such. PHP, PDO, Smarty, MySQL and occasionally CodeIgniter are my "weapons of choice" for webapps, and I'm a total grammar and standards-compliance Nazi -- if I see a typo or a glitch that breaks HTML/CSS validation, I WILL fix it. I don't do AJAX, but I'm willing to learn (there are two O'Reilly AJAX books on my desk waiting to be read). As long as it doesn't kill my server (it's a quad Xeon with 500GB RAID1 HDD and 8GB RAM, so "not likely"), I'm fine with it. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ats at offog.org Wed Apr 21 18:03:10 2010 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 00:03:10 +0100 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BCECDF1.11995.21B6FB@cclist.sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:05:37 -0700") References: <4BCDAF87.32310.F3EDCD@cclist.sydex.com> <4BCEE63C.3020903@verizon.net> <4BCECDF1.11995.21B6FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: "Chuck Guzis" writes: > If you have, for example, an Amstrad Joyce, there's nowhere to send or > receive the data, as there is no (standard) extra port. I know third-party serial ports, standard disk drives and so on were widely available later in the PCW's life, but how was development done when it first came out? Did Amstrad provide developer-friendly PCWs with extra hardware to make porting existing CP/M applications easier, or did development houses have to come up with their own approaches? -- Adam Sampson From jthecman at netscape.net Wed Apr 21 18:37:40 2010 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:37:40 -0400 Subject: Found digital catalog Message-ID: <8CCAFC2C45159A7-4EC4-5F64@Webmail-m121.sysops.aol.com> Today as I was looking through the warehouse in one of the boxes were several digital manuals. One was a 1990 October-December Systems and Options Catalog on Vax Systems/Decsystems. It's a great read full of lots detail about each system. JK From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 21 18:44:19 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 16:44:19 -0700 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: , <4BCECDF1.11995.21B6FB@cclist.sydex.com> (Chuck Guzis's message of "Wed, 21 Apr 2010 10:05:37 -0700"), Message-ID: <4BCF2B63.7891.18EBC1C@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2010 at 0:03, Adam Sampson wrote: > I know third-party serial ports, standard disk drives and so on were > widely available later in the PCW's life, but how was development done > when it first came out? Did Amstrad provide developer-friendly PCWs > with extra hardware to make porting existing CP/M applications easier, > or did development houses have to come up with their own approaches? I have no idea, but I transfer files by writing the diskettes on a PC. --Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 21 19:38:44 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:38:44 -0400 Subject: difficulty trying to locate CP/M files XLT80.COM, XLT80.ASM In-Reply-To: References: <4BCF57DD.1070702@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BCF9A94.9010205@comcast.net> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 2010, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> I'm having difficulty trying to locate this CP/M files, XLT80.COM and >> XLT80.ASM , this is a Z80/8080 translator. > > Are you dead set on XLT80? I've used XZI/XIZ with good results: > > http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Hidden/CPM/xiz.zip I see, that one looks good too, thanks ! Here at home, I just tried a site search on the copy of Walnut Creek archive I have and that wasn't on there either, I tried looking for both tools XZI and XIZ. But I can find the different versions of XLATE. I thought the Walnut Creek archive was supposed to be a comprehensive list or programs, I guess not. =Dan From lproven at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 20:08:44 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 02:08:44 +0100 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: <4BCDAF87.32310.F3EDCD@cclist.sydex.com> <4BCEE63C.3020903@verizon.net> <4BCECDF1.11995.21B6FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 12:03 AM, Adam Sampson wrote: > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> If you have, for example, an Amstrad Joyce, there's nowhere to send or >> receive the data, as there is no (standard) extra port. > > I know third-party serial ports, standard disk drives and so on were > widely available later in the PCW's life, but how was development done > when it first came out? Did Amstrad provide developer-friendly PCWs with > extra hardware to make porting existing CP/M applications easier, or did > development houses have to come up with their own approaches? An add-on extra serial port was one of the 1st peripherals, I believe, and a simple terminal app was supplied with the system, by the name of MAIL232.COM (IIRC - I got my PCW as my 21st birthday present, and I'm now 42, so it was half my life ago...) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Apr 21 21:12:52 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <01d401cae19b$c8830290$598907b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from Rob Jarratt at "Apr 21, 10 10:44:07 pm" Message-ID: <201004220212.o3M2Cq07014090@floodgap.com> > Regrettably that did not help either, I think it is something more > fundamental than that. Does the following tell you anything? > > TCPIP> sh service ftp /fu > > Service: FTP > State: Enabled > Port: 21 Protocol: TCP Address: 0.0.0.0 > Inactivity: 5 User_name: TCPIP$FTP Process: TCPIP$FTP > Limit: 10 Active: 1 Peak: 3 > > File: TCPIP$SYSTEM:TCPIP$FTP_RUN.COM > Flags: None > > Socket Opts: Rcheck Scheck > Receive: 0 Send: 0 > > Log Opts: Acpt Actv Dactv Conn Error Exit Logi Logo Mdfy Rjct TimO Addr > File: SYS$SYSDEVICE:[TCPIP$FTP]TCPIP$FTP_RUN.LOG > > Security > Reject msg: not defined > Accept host: 0.0.0.0 > Accept netw: 0.0.0.0 My VMSfu is rusty, but that looks reasonable. What happens when you telnet to port 21 from another host? You should get a message like 220 blah.foo.invalid FTP server ready -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- What use is magic if it can't save a unicorn? -- Beagle, "The Last Unicorn" From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 16:58:50 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 17:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> My eyes are crossed from staring through the board at a bright light... >> Will patch traces and reassemble tomorrow. I'll let you know if things >> cooperate. > > I hope it works.... A quick update: The drive spins up, comes ready and is passing the seek test in Morrow's FORMATHD.COM utility. The header read fails on all sectors and all cylinders, so something is still amiss. I tried re-writing the sector headers (if I interpret correctly, it is possible to simply rewrite the headers without disturbing data in the sector proper - a new one on me!) but that didn't help. No error on write, but they cannot be read back. I'll start poking around in the read logic next. Getting closer, anyway. Steve -- From pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie Thu Apr 22 04:09:08 2010 From: pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 10:09:08 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS Message-ID: <01NM8YP9FCW8Q3U5LR@vms.eurokom.ie> > >I am trying to run the ftp command on Windows (7) against an FTP server on >VMS 7.3 (the UCX version of TCP/IP). I am sure this has worked in the past, >but now when I try it connects successfully but VMS never sends back the >login prompt. I tried running FTP on the VMS system back to itself and the >prompt came straight back. > >Sniffing the packets I see a SYN from Windows, SYN-ACK from VMS and then ACK >back to VMS. 60 seconds later Windows resets the connection. > Are you sure the windows firewall is not fouling things up? Can you FTP from the same windows machine to any other FTP server? I vaguely remember a problem with the VMS TCPIP wanting to do a reverse dns lookup of the client making the connection and this holding things up for a while if it did not complete due to lack of access to dns servers etc. However, I don't recall it causing the connection to fail. > > ISTR, isn't there an option for command line FTP to disable/enable >local echo, or something to that effect? Have you tried a GUI FTP client? > I would stick with the command line FTP client. Many of the GUI FTP clients for windows assume a unix or windows filesystem on the server and completely fail to cope with the syntax of VMS filenames. Even the ones that claim to understand VMS can still run into difficulties. I think part of the problem is that the RFC describing FTP says that filenames should be in the servers format rather than in a platform independant format and the GUI FTP client producers tend to do what they think should work rather than follow the RFCs to the letter. Regards, Peter Coghlan From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 22 07:38:33 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 05:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <01NM8YP9FCW8Q3U5LR@vms.eurokom.ie> from Peter Coghlan at "Apr 22, 10 10:09:08 am" Message-ID: <201004221238.o3MCcXGp016092@floodgap.com> > I would stick with the command line FTP client. Many of the GUI FTP clients > for windows assume a unix or windows filesystem on the server and > completely fail to cope with the syntax of VMS filenames. Even the ones > that claim to understand VMS can still run into difficulties. I think part > of the problem is that the RFC describing FTP says that filenames should > be in the servers format rather than in a platform independant format and > the GUI FTP client producers tend to do what they think should work rather > than follow the RFCs to the letter. The same problem exists when connecting to Alpha Micro servers. AlphaTCP's FTP daemon exposes the usual project,programmer numbers (and ersatzes) which many graphical FTP clients choke on. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. -- Pablo Picasso ---- From steve at cosam.org Thu Apr 22 07:53:54 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 14:53:54 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: <4BCF7DB6.60207@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BCF7DB6.60207@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Philip Pemberton wrote: > ?- Tables of contents (where available) for books, journals, etc. > ? ?Very handy when you're looking for a specific article and don't > ? ?know where it is. The current data model has TOCs for a lot of documents and I'd definitely want to keep that feature. So for books/journals, you'd get that for free. > ?- Open-source, with as few dependencies as possible. PHP+PDO would > ? ?be my choice (maybe PHP+CodeIgniter). Should be possible to install > ? ?a version on a "home" server or desktop machine (Linux/OSX box?) to > ? ?play with. Open source and runable at home: certainly. But let's not get too hung up on the technical implementation before we know what it needs to do. I'd really like to see a core library/API which can be used by different languages. > ?- XML-based API. Make the data available to other systems. Maybe limit > ? ?this to registered users to prevent (or at least reduce the > ? ?likelihood of) data-scraping and the associated bandwidth/CPU costs. And possibly enabled/disabled at the discretion of the person hosting a particular mirror. >> * Replication of the entire system to mirrors, or at least the ability >> to pack the whole shebang up and move it to a different host with >> relative ease. > > Mysqldump and a 15-minute (or whatever) period each day when the DBs sync > against each other? Probably something along those lines - it wouldn't need to be anything like real time. > I'd be happy to contribute hosting, development time and such. Great! Looks like we have a good few volunteers. I'm wondering how we can best co-ordinate our efforts. If may be enough to simply keep others informed of what we're thinking about and working on. Myself, I'm going to brainstorm a bit more, but I wouldn't mind drafting a preliminary design some time soon. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Apr 22 09:07:23 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 07:07:23 -0700 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <97858853961609016@unknownmsgid> References: <97858853961609016@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I am trying to run the ftp command on Windows (7) against an FTP server on > VMS 7.3 (the UCX version of TCP/IP). I am sure this has worked in the past, > but now when I try it connects successfully but VMS never sends back the > login prompt. I tried running FTP on the VMS system back to itself and the > prompt came straight back. > I recently had the exact same problem trying to get some files transferred to a VMS 7.3 system from a Windows 7 system so that I could then MOP boot another system from the VMS 7.3 system. I ended up downloading and using the open source GUI FileZilla FTP client as the quickest way to get the file transfer task done at the time. http://filezilla-project.org/ -Glen From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Apr 22 09:23:40 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:23:40 +0100 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: <4BCF7DB6.60207@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BD05BEC.5050107@philpem.me.uk> Steve Maddison wrote: > The current data model has TOCs for a lot of documents and I'd > definitely want to keep that feature. So for books/journals, you'd get > that for free. In that case, I might be persuaded to enter the TOCs for all the UK-edition Elektor magazines I have on-hand -- almost the complete run from 1974 to 1986 (I'm missing May 1984, Jul/Aug 1984 and May 1986 to Dec 1989). There are a lot of projects in there which classiccmp'ers might find interesting, and most central libraries seem to keep a reasonable archive of them around. >> - XML-based API. Make the data available to other systems. Maybe limit >> this to registered users to prevent (or at least reduce the >> likelihood of) data-scraping and the associated bandwidth/CPU costs. > > And possibly enabled/disabled at the discretion of the person hosting > a particular mirror. Absolutely. >> I'd be happy to contribute hosting, development time and such. > > Great! Looks like we have a good few volunteers. I'm wondering how we > can best co-ordinate our efforts. If may be enough to simply keep > others informed of what we're thinking about and working on. Myself, > I'm going to brainstorm a bit more, but I wouldn't mind drafting a > preliminary design some time soon. I can rig up mailing lists, version control hosting (I usually use Mercurial, but the server is set up for Subversion too, IIRC) and so on if necessary. Perhaps a Wiki too? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Apr 22 21:07:27 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:07:27 -0400 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? Message-ID: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> Hi! It pains me to ask this, what vendors are hobbyists using for low cost, low quantity prototype PCBs? I've used Advanced Circuits and they've been pretty good. I would love to stick with them as their barebonesPCB is a deal. 33each looks interesting too. However, I am starting to have problems with them unrelated to the PCBs and am investigating what other sources are available. I am trying to get some prototype PCBs to evaluate some S-100 boards in development (S-100 System Monitor Board, S-100 Bus Extender, S-100 Z80 CPU, etc) Any ideas? Constructive suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance. Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 22 15:50:19 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:50:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: from "Adam Sampson" at Apr 22, 10 00:03:10 am Message-ID: > > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > If you have, for example, an Amstrad Joyce, there's nowhere to send or > > receive the data, as there is no (standard) extra port. > > I know third-party serial ports, standard disk drives and so on were > widely available later in the PCW's life, but how was development done I don;t know how early iyt came out (relative to the release of the PCW), but there was an amstrad serial interface module which plugged into the system bus. The disk drive was standard -- a standard 3" unit (and the Amstrad PCW -- and Amstrad Z80 machines in general -- were not the only machines to use that size disk). The disk cotnroler was, IIRC, a standard 765=, the disk format was a normal-ish MFM one. I suyspect it would be very easy to link an Amstrad 3" drive (or any other 3" drive -- some of the Hitachi ones had a 34 pin edge connector with the stnadard pinout) to another machine and write Amstrad disks on it. Some to think of it, didn't the CPC6128 pre-date the PCW? It had an external drive connector which IIRC was a standard 34 pin one. Was there ever an external 3" srive unit for that machine? If so it would be very easy to link to another machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 22 15:44:47 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:44:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 21, 10 05:58:50 pm Message-ID: > A quick update: The drive spins up, comes ready and is passing the seek > test in Morrow's FORMATHD.COM utility. The header read fails on all Sinc this drive has a transparent cover, I assume you can see the heads moving during the seek trst. > sectors and all cylinders, so something is still amiss. I tried > re-writing the sector headers (if I interpret correctly, it is possible to > simply rewrite the headers without disturbing data in the sector proper - That is not unheard-of. Howeever, I would be a little wary of writing to a drive that didn;t read correctly. If something is faulty, it's quite possible it's going to write somewhere it shouldn't. And since the drive fails on every sector, I would think the fualt is unlikely to be simply bad formatting data on the disk. > a new one on me!) but that didn't help. No error on write, but they > cannot be read back. What error do you get if you try to read them? Does it manage to find anything? > > I'll start poking around in the read logic next. Getting closer, anyway. I've not looked at the schematics, but I guess I'd start by seeing if (a) it was reading anything (do you get any sensible-looking pulses at the read data output -- and rmemeber that in 99% of drives the pusle width is irrelevant, it's set by a monostable on the logic board, it's the pulse spacing that defines the data), and (b) is it selecting one (and only one) head -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 22 14:47:52 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 20:47:52 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS References: <97858853961609016@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <021401cae254$b35c6eb0$1a154c10$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Forgot to mention that I tried FTP to another machine on my network (running Windows) and it opened just fine using the Windows command line client. So the problem would appear to be on the VMS side. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 22 April 2010 20:24 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: FTP from Windows to VMS > > FileZilla can't do it either: > > Status: Connecting to 192.168.0.106:21... > Status: Connection established, waiting for welcome message... > Error: Connection timed out > Error: Could not connect to server > > Also Telnet to the port does not elicit any response. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > > Sent: 22 April 2010 15:07 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: FTP from Windows to VMS > > > > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Rob Jarratt > > wrote: > > > I am trying to run the ftp command on Windows (7) against an FTP > > server on > > > VMS 7.3 (the UCX version of TCP/IP). I am sure this has worked in > the > > past, > > > but now when I try it connects successfully but VMS never sends > back > > the > > > login prompt. I tried running FTP on the VMS system back to itself > > and the > > > prompt came straight back. > > > > > > > I recently had the exact same problem trying to get some files > > transferred to a VMS 7.3 system from a Windows 7 system so that I > > could then MOP boot another system from the VMS 7.3 system. > > > > I ended up downloading and using the open source GUI FileZilla FTP > > client as the quickest way to get the file transfer task done at the > > time. http://filezilla-project.org/ > > > > -Glen For From steve at cosam.org Thu Apr 22 14:08:36 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:08:36 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: <4BD05BEC.5050107@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BCF7DB6.60207@philpem.me.uk> <4BD05BEC.5050107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Philip Pemberton wrote: > I can rig up mailing lists, version control hosting (I usually use > Mercurial, but the server is set up for Subversion too, IIRC) and so on if > necessary. Perhaps a Wiki too? I think a wiki would be great, as would a mailing list. If you can set that up relatively easily, I'd say go for it. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 22 14:32:51 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:32:51 -0400 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: <4BD05BEC.5050107@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BCF7DB6.60207@philpem.me.uk> <4BD05BEC.5050107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <0DF6466A-BA1A-4AA1-925B-95239AA08F8D@neurotica.com> On Apr 22, 2010, at 10:23 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I can rig up mailing lists, version control hosting (I usually use > Mercurial, but the server is set up for Subversion too, IIRC) and > so on if necessary. Perhaps a Wiki too? I can help with that stuff as well, should an extra pair of hands (or a network) be needed. I've got all of those services (though SVN, not Mercurial) running here already. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 22 14:24:10 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 20:24:10 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: References: <97858853961609016@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <021201cae251$63de45a0$2b9ad0e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> FileZilla can't do it either: Status: Connecting to 192.168.0.106:21... Status: Connection established, waiting for welcome message... Error: Connection timed out Error: Could not connect to server Also Telnet to the port does not elicit any response. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick > Sent: 22 April 2010 15:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: FTP from Windows to VMS > > On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > I am trying to run the ftp command on Windows (7) against an FTP > server on > > VMS 7.3 (the UCX version of TCP/IP). I am sure this has worked in the > past, > > but now when I try it connects successfully but VMS never sends back > the > > login prompt. I tried running FTP on the VMS system back to itself > and the > > prompt came straight back. > > > > I recently had the exact same problem trying to get some files > transferred to a VMS 7.3 system from a Windows 7 system so that I > could then MOP boot another system from the VMS 7.3 system. > > I ended up downloading and using the open source GUI FileZilla FTP > client as the quickest way to get the file transfer task done at the > time. http://filezilla-project.org/ > > -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 22 13:17:29 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 12:17:29 -0600 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:23:40 +0100. <4BD05BEC.5050107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4BD05BEC.5050107 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > I can rig up mailing lists, version control hosting (I usually use > Mercurial, but the server is set up for Subversion too, IIRC) and so on > if necessary. Perhaps a Wiki too? Mercurial + mailing list + wiki, I vote yes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Apr 23 13:07:01 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:07:01 -0500 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: try http://www.protoexpress.com/ (sierra circuits) Sara Clark is my contact: sarac AT protoexpress.com Randy PS if you need any PCB layout, let me know, Im a guru, and currently unemployed ;) > From: lynchaj at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 22:07:27 -0400 > > Hi! It pains me to ask this, what vendors are hobbyists using for low cost, > low quantity prototype PCBs? > > > > I've used Advanced Circuits and they've been pretty good. I would love to > stick with them as their barebonesPCB is a deal. 33each looks interesting > too. However, I am starting to have problems with them unrelated to the > PCBs and am investigating what other sources are available. > > > > I am trying to get some prototype PCBs to evaluate some S-100 boards in > development (S-100 System Monitor Board, S-100 Bus Extender, S-100 Z80 CPU, > etc) > > > > Any ideas? Constructive suggestions appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > > > Have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 23 13:17:10 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 11:17:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amstrad (Was: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100423110522.T58960@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 22 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > The disk drive was standard -- a standard 3" unit (and the Amstrad PCW -- > and Amstrad Z80 machines in general -- were not the only machines to use > that size disk). The disk cotnroler was, IIRC, a standard 765=, the disk > format was a normal-ish MFM one. I suyspect it would be very easy to link > an Amstrad 3" drive (or any other 3" drive -- some of the Hitachi ones > had a 34 pin edge connector with the stnadard pinout) to another machine > and write Amstrad disks on it. > Some to think of it, didn't the CPC6128 pre-date the PCW? It had an > external drive connector which IIRC was a standard 34 pin one. Was there > ever an external 3" srive unit for that machine? If so it would be very > easy to link to another machine. Amdek sold an external drive unit with two 3" drives. Their advertising targeted the RS Color Computer. Trivial to connect to most machines with a "standard" floppy interface. Amdek also sold an external unit for Apple ][! Unless it had its own proprietary interface card, then I would have to assume that that unit had different "logic board". Anybody know? Was "Amdek" affiliated with Amstrad in any way? Or were the names purely coincidental? At one of the Silicon Valley computer swaps (John Craig's "Computer Swap America"), there were occasional drives for sale. They had "standard" interfaces, even "standard" data and power connectors, so connecting them was truly trivial. There were 2-sided drives and single sided "flippy" drives. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From brain at jbrain.com Fri Apr 23 13:20:18 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:20:18 -0500 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4BD1E4E2.7010104@jbrain.com> On 4/22/2010 9:07 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! It pains me to ask this, what vendors are hobbyists using for low cost, > low quantity prototype PCBs? > I highly recommend OurPCB (www.ourpcb.com). I doubt it's cheaper than barebonespcb.com, but I like the: * multiple soldermask options at no charge * free e-test * ability to panelize orders * stencils for SMT are $120.00 * $50 setup for a board, as many orders of it at no additional setup charge * 4mil min * 12mil drill min * HASL as standard, gold immersion is only $30.00 extra. * 10 days order to door. * They will assemble for $0.016 per pad/pin + cost of components. * Accept Gerber and Excellon * Support Paypal as well as traditional options. * 5 day turn is $50 extra I have never had an issue with them, or the PCBs they produce, and I've run ~ 1000 boards through their service in the past 2 years. Pricing is at: http://www.ourpcb.com/pcb-price.htm Can you relate your issues with Advanced Circuits, just so others who might want to use them might be able to take it into account? Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 13:52:04 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:52:04 -0400 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: On 4/22/10, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! It pains me to ask this, what vendors are hobbyists using for low cost, > low quantity prototype PCBs? I had a run recently done by Gold Phoenix (http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/) - 2 layer board, approx 3"x3.5", 100% through-hole design, no fancy features (it was an 80C52 design that is now sporting an ATmega8515). I sent them Gerber files from EagleCAD and they panellized for free - their work size is 155 sq in, so I got 16 boards for $99. For the application at hand, it was a good deal and I was happy with the results. Gold Phoenix was recommended to me by the Makerbot guys. I've done one run and was entirely satisfied. We will probably do a "Rev 2" through them as well. -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Apr 23 14:53:48 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 20:53:48 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <021201cae251$63de45a0$2b9ad0e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5571FABE3FE94EA98E6FC62053F1F17E@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > FileZilla can't do it either: > > Status: Connecting to 192.168.0.106:21... > Status: Connection established, waiting for welcome message... > Error: Connection timed out Error: Could not connect to server > > Also Telnet to the port does not elicit any response. Try running a packet capture on the VMS end. Can you oing from windows to VMS? Can you telnet (not to the FTP port) to the VMS end? Antonio From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Apr 23 15:28:50 2010 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:28:50 -0700 Subject: MicroPDP-11/83 badge wanted Message-ID: I'm looking for the badge for a MicroPDP-11/83 that goes on the Front Control Panel of a BA23-A enclosure. I don't know that "badge" is the correct term, but it looks something like: Alternatively, the entire Front Control Panel assembly, with the MicroPDP-11/83 badge, would be of interest. If you have one for sale or trade, please contact me. Thanks, John From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Apr 23 15:35:59 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 16:35:59 -0400 Subject: Wang 1200 Trip Message-ID: <34BC9685-6407-4DDA-8508-8EC5CBA7CB91@colourfull.com> Hi All, For those interested, I just picked up a Wang 1200 Word processor. I have the trip story and some pictures at: http://borsuk.us/2010/04/23/wang-1200-word-processing-trip/ Thanks Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Apr 23 15:39:48 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 13:39:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 2010, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! It pains me to ask this, what vendors are hobbyists using for low cost, > low quantity prototype PCBs? > > > > I've used Advanced Circuits and they've been pretty good. I would love to > stick with them as their barebonesPCB is a deal. 33each looks interesting > too. However, I am starting to have problems with them unrelated to the > PCBs and am investigating what other sources are available. > > > > I am trying to get some prototype PCBs to evaluate some S-100 boards in > development (S-100 System Monitor Board, S-100 Bus Extender, S-100 Z80 CPU, > etc) > Andrew, I ordered four 2.1" x 2.85" boards from PCB-Pool for $50 + shipping. They're in Germany. You can pick a no-frills board that doesn't use a silk screen or solder mask. They an easy to use online quoting tool as well. http://www.pcb-pool.com g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 23 15:49:38 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:49:38 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <5571FABE3FE94EA98E6FC62053F1F17E@ANTONIOPC> References: <021201cae251$63de45a0$2b9ad0e0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <5571FABE3FE94EA98E6FC62053F1F17E@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <027e01cae326$7ebba6d0$7c32f470$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 23 April 2010 20:54 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: FTP from Windows to VMS > > Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > > FileZilla can't do it either: > > > > Status: Connecting to 192.168.0.106:21... > > Status: Connection established, waiting for welcome message... > > Error: Connection timed out Error: Could not connect to > server > > > > Also Telnet to the port does not elicit any response. > > Try running a packet capture on the VMS end. > > Can you oing from windows to VMS? > > Can you telnet (not to the FTP port) to the VMS end? > > Antonio Very interesting now. I booted up another VAX, also running 7.3, and I was able to FTP to that one no problem at all. I can telnet to the "bad" VAX no problem. Pinging is fine. I can use DECnet fine between both VAXen. I can ping between both VAXen. When you say run a packet capture on the VMS end do you mean run a sniffer program actually on the VAX? If so I don't know of any software for that, do you have a recommendation? I can run a sniffer on the PC, which is connected to the same switch (not a hub), as this is all on single segment. If I try to run UCX FTP on the good VAX to connect to the bad VAX this is what I get: FTP> conn 192.168.0.106 %TCPIP-E-FTP_NETERR, I/O error on network device -SYSTEM-F-REJECT, connect to network object rejected FTP> If I try the same thing from the bad VAX to the good one it works, but it takes a while to come up with the login prompt. The same long delay happens from the bad VAX to a Windows FTP server I have (the good VAX comes up with the prompt right away). There is definitely a problem with the "bad" VAX. It occurred to me there may be some errors of some kind, so I got some info as follows: TCPIP> sh int se0 /fu Interface: SE0 IP_Addr: 192.168.0.106 NETWRK: 255.255.255.0 BRDCST: 192.168.0.255 Cluster C_Addr: C_NETWRK: C_BRDCST: Ethernet_Addr: AA-00-04-00-07-04 MTU: 1500 Flags: UP BRDCST RUN MCAST SMPX RECEIVE SEND Packets 2226 115 Errors 0 0 Collisions: 0 TCPIP> sh prot ip: 0 total packets received 0 bad header checksums 0 with size smaller than minimum 0 with data size < data length 0 with header length < data size 0 with data length < header length 0 fragments received 0 fragments dropped (duplicate or out of space) 0 fragments dropped after timeout 0 packets forwarded 0 packets not forwardable 0 packets denied access 0 redirects sent 0 packets with unknown or unsupported protocol 0 packets consumed here 0 total packets generated here 0 lost packets due to resource problems 0 total packets reassembled ok 0 output packets fragmented ok 0 output fragments created 0 packets with special flags set icmp: 0 calls to icmp_error 0 errors not generated because old ip message was too short 0 errors not generated because old message was icmp Output histogram: echo reply: 12 0 messages with bad code fields 0 messages < minimum length 0 bad checksums 0 messages with bad length Input histogram: echo reply: 4 destination unreachable: 35 echo: 12 12 message responses generated tcp: 45 packets sent 18 data packets (373 bytes) 0 data packets (0 bytes) retransmitted 18 ack-only packets (8 delayed) 0 URG only packets 0 window probe packets 0 window update packets 9 control packets 44 packets received 22 acks (for 381 bytes) 4 duplicate acks 0 acks for unsent data 18 packets (271 bytes) received in-sequence 0 completely duplicate packets (0 bytes) 0 packets with some duplicate data (0 bytes duped) 3 out-of-order packets (0 bytes) 0 packets (0 bytes) of data after window 0 window probes 0 window update packets 0 packets received after close 0 discarded for bad checksums 0 discarded for bad header offset fields 0 discarded because packet was too short 4 connection requests 3 connection accepts 6 connections established (including accepts) 7 connections closed (including 2 drops) 1 embryonic connection dropped 25 segments updated rtt (of 26 attempts) 2 retransmit timeouts 0 connections dropped by rexmit timeout 0 persist timeouts 2 keepalive timeouts 0 keepalive probes sent 1 connection dropped by keepalive udp: 35 packets sent 1405 packets received 0 incomplete headers 0 bad data length fields 0 bad checksums 0 full sockets 1405 for no port (1405 broadcasts, 0 multicasts) 0 input packets missed pcb cache TCPIP> Frankly I am mystified.... Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 23 15:51:10 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 21:51:10 +0100 Subject: MicroPDP-11/83 badge wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <027f01cae326$b5b06860$21113920$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John A. Dundas III > Sent: 23 April 2010 21:29 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: MicroPDP-11/83 badge wanted > > I'm looking for the badge for a MicroPDP-11/83 that goes on the Front > Control Panel of a BA23-A enclosure. I don't know that "badge" is > the correct term, but it looks something like: > > > > Alternatively, the entire Front Control Panel assembly, with the > MicroPDP-11/83 badge, would be of interest. > > If you have one for sale or trade, please contact me. > > Thanks, > > John And if anyone has a MicroVAX II badge they would be prepared to part with, I would be interested in that. Thanks Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 23 16:06:48 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 22:06:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amstrad (Was: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <20100423110522.T58960@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 23, 10 11:17:10 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 22 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > The disk drive was standard -- a standard 3" unit (and the Amstrad PCW -- > > and Amstrad Z80 machines in general -- were not the only machines to use > > that size disk). The disk cotnroler was, IIRC, a standard 765=, the disk > > format was a normal-ish MFM one. I suyspect it would be very easy to link > > an Amstrad 3" drive (or any other 3" drive -- some of the Hitachi ones > > had a 34 pin edge connector with the stnadard pinout) to another machine > > and write Amstrad disks on it. > > Some to think of it, didn't the CPC6128 pre-date the PCW? It had an > > external drive connector which IIRC was a standard 34 pin one. Was there > > ever an external 3" srive unit for that machine? If so it would be very > > easy to link to another machine. > > Amdek sold an external drive unit with two 3" drives. Their advertising > targeted the RS Color Computer. Trivial to connect to most machines with > a "standard" floppy interface. Indeed... When the 3" drive was going out of fashion over here -- when it was clear that the 3.5" drive owuld be the standard one -- some companies were selling off 3" drives very cheaply. I rememebr buying a couple to use as second drives on my CoCos. IIRC they were Hitachi units with 34 pin edge connectors and plugged straight in [1]. I also have somwhere a 3" drive that was sold for use on the BBC micro. Again it was a standard 34 pin interface and would trivially connect to other machines [1] Althought I added a little bit of circuitry -- a couple of TTL chips IIRC -- to allow it to be accessed as either a double-sided drive or 2 separate single-sided drrives. Color TRS-DOS didn't understnad about dobule-sided drives, so it was easier to treat it as 2 separate drives under that OS. Of course OS9 had no problems with a double-sided drive. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 23 16:39:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:39:29 -0700 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: from "Adam Sampson" at Apr 22, 10 00:03:10 am, Message-ID: <4BD1B121.3114.1A7C903@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Apr 2010 at 21:50, Tony Duell wrote: > The disk drive was standard -- a standard 3" unit (and the Amstrad PCW > -- and Amstrad Z80 machines in general -- were not the only machines > to use that size disk). The disk cotnroler was, IIRC, a standard 765=, > the disk format was a normal-ish MFM one. I suyspect it would be very > easy to link an Amstrad 3" drive (or any other 3" drive -- some of the > Hitachi ones had a 34 pin edge connector with the stnadard pinout) to > another machine and write Amstrad disks on it. My own Joyce has the 3" drive replaced by two Teac 235F (720K) drives. If you change a couple of bytes in the boot sector of an PCW 8256 boot disk, it'll boot just fine on an 8512 as a 720K drive. One gotcha to look out for is the power connector on the Joyce 3" drives--it *looks* like a standard 3.5" floppy connector, but the +5 and +12 lines are exchanged. Magic smoke time if you miss that one. With 2 720K drives and the full complement of DRAM (512K?), the 8512 is actually a pretty decent system for general CP/M work. --Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Apr 23 16:48:15 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 22:48:15 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <027e01cae326$7ebba6d0$7c32f470$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <57D8A8858BE84EE6BECED477275A80C8@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > Very interesting now. I booted up another VAX, also running > 7.3, and I was able to FTP to that one no problem at all. I > can telnet to the "bad" VAX no problem. Pinging is fine. I > can use DECnet fine between both VAXen. I can ping between both VAXen. So basic connectivity is OK, you just have an FTP problem. > When you say run a packet capture on the VMS end do you mean > run a sniffer program actually on the VAX? If so I don't know > of any software for that, do you have a recommendation? I can > run a sniffer on the PC, which is connected to the same > switch (not a hub), as this is all on single segment. I'm running UCX 4.0 and my UCX experience is limited, but on my box "HELP TCPIPTRACE" is the place to start. For today's problem, however, it's unlikely to help as you'll see an attempted connection and a failure (SYN from PC, RST from VAX at a wild guess). It might be worth a shot as it might show that the initial connection works and something goes wrong later on. > If I try to run UCX FTP on the good VAX to connect to the bad > VAX this is what I get: > >> conn 192.168.0.106 > %TCPIP-E-FTP_NETERR, I/O error on network device > -SYSTEM-F-REJECT, connect to network object rejected That sounds like nothing is listening for FTP. Try: $ UCX UCX> SHOW SERVICE Does that list FTP? Antonio From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 23 17:28:47 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 23:28:47 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <57D8A8858BE84EE6BECED477275A80C8@ANTONIOPC> References: <027e01cae326$7ebba6d0$7c32f470$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <57D8A8858BE84EE6BECED477275A80C8@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <028801cae334$5a461f70$0ed25e50$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 23 April 2010 22:48 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: FTP from Windows to VMS > > Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > > Very interesting now. I booted up another VAX, also running > > 7.3, and I was able to FTP to that one no problem at all. I > > can telnet to the "bad" VAX no problem. Pinging is fine. I > > can use DECnet fine between both VAXen. I can ping between both > VAXen. > > So basic connectivity is OK, you just have an FTP problem. > > > When you say run a packet capture on the VMS end do you mean > > run a sniffer program actually on the VAX? If so I don't know > > of any software for that, do you have a recommendation? I can > > run a sniffer on the PC, which is connected to the same > > switch (not a hub), as this is all on single segment. > > I'm running UCX 4.0 and my UCX experience is limited, but on > my box "HELP TCPIPTRACE" is the place to start. For today's > problem, however, it's unlikely to help as you'll see an > attempted connection and a failure (SYN from PC, RST from VAX > at a wild guess). It might be worth a shot as it might > show that the initial connection works and something goes > wrong later on. > > > If I try to run UCX FTP on the good VAX to connect to the bad > > VAX this is what I get: > > > >> conn 192.168.0.106 > > %TCPIP-E-FTP_NETERR, I/O error on network device > > -SYSTEM-F-REJECT, connect to network object rejected > > That sounds like nothing is listening for FTP. > > Try: > > $ UCX > UCX> SHOW SERVICE > > Does that list FTP? > > Antonio I sniffed the packets a few days ago and posted this in my first post: Sniffing the packets I see a SYN from Windows, SYN-ACK from VMS and then ACK back to VMS. 60 seconds later Windows resets the connection. FTP is listed: TCPIP> sh service Service Port Proto Process Address State FTP 21 TCP TCPIP$FTP 0.0.0.0 Enabled TELNET 23 TCP not defined 0.0.0.0 Enabled TCPIP> Regards Rob From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 23 21:15:06 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 19:15:06 -0700 Subject: MicroPDP-11/83 badge wanted In-Reply-To: <027f01cae326$b5b06860$21113920$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <027f01cae326$b5b06860$21113920$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: At 9:51 PM +0100 4/23/10, Rob Jarratt wrote: >And if anyone has a MicroVAX II badge they would be prepared to part with, I >would be interested in that. Well... I have one I'd like to trade for a Micro-PDP-11/73, since right now my souped up /73 is masquerading as a MicroVAX II. :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Apr 23 16:23:17 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 17:23:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> A quick update: The drive spins up, comes ready and is passing the seek >> test in Morrow's FORMATHD.COM utility. The header read fails on all > > Sinc this drive has a transparent cover, I assume you can see the heads > moving during the seek trst. Yes, and it tries to walk off the table :-). Serious amount of moving mass involved! >> sectors and all cylinders, so something is still amiss. I tried >> re-writing the sector headers (if I interpret correctly, it is possible to >> simply rewrite the headers without disturbing data in the sector proper - > > That is not unheard-of. Howeever, I would be a little wary of writing to > a drive that didn;t read correctly. If something is faulty, it's quite > possible it's going to write somewhere it shouldn't. And since the drive > fails on every sector, I would think the fualt is unlikely to be simply > bad formatting data on the disk. Ah, well. I doubt there was anything on there of value to me. >> a new one on me!) but that didn't help. No error on write, but they >> cannot be read back. > > What error do you get if you try to read them? Does it manage to find > anything? No, it fails 64 times to read every sector on every track. >> I'll start poking around in the read logic next. Getting closer, anyway. > > I've not looked at the schematics, but I guess I'd start by seeing if (a) > it was reading anything (do you get any sensible-looking pulses at the > read data output -- and rmemeber that in 99% of drives the pusle width is > irrelevant, it's set by a monostable on the logic board, it's the pulse > spacing that defines the data), and (b) is it selecting one (and only > one) head Yes, I'm planning to poke through it with a scope tomorrow. Steve -- From pbennett at macnet.com Sat Apr 24 03:48:10 2010 From: pbennett at macnet.com (Paul Bennett) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:48:10 -0700 Subject: Northgate OmniKey Ultra Message-ID: <4BD2B04A.4000404@macnet.com> Your Omnikey post is still floating around the net. I paid $200 for my spare and couln't compute without it. Standard keyboards have empty spots where their should be keys. I can't see the keyboard when I type and this is the only one which essentially can be operated by feel. enjoy. p From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 24 13:28:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:28:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 23, 10 05:23:17 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 22 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> A quick update: The drive spins up, comes ready and is passing the seek > >> test in Morrow's FORMATHD.COM utility. The header read fails on all > > > > Sinc this drive has a transparent cover, I assume you can see the heads > > moving during the seek trst. > > Yes, and it tries to walk off the table :-). Serious amount of moving Right This reminds me of the time a friend got an old (even then) high-speed idot matrix impact printer/ After every carrige return it moved a little way across his workbench. And thus halfway through printing a large file if fell off the bench (and carried on printing.). Anyway, I think we can assume for the mom,ent that the head possitioner in ytour drive is working peoperly. > mass involved! > > What error do you get if you try to read them? Does it manage to find > > anything? > > No, it fails 64 times to read every sector on every track. YEs, but what is it failing to do? Can it find the sctory (== read the header)? Is this a hard sectored dirve? In any case does the cotnroller use the index pulse fro anyhting? Is that presnet and correct? > Yes, I'm planning to poke through it with a scope tomorrow. Let us know how you get on :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 24 13:31:57 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:31:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BD1B121.3114.1A7C903@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 23, 10 02:39:29 pm Message-ID: > My own Joyce has the 3" drive replaced by two Teac 235F (720K) That's not something I would do, if only because it means the machine can no longer use any of its native disks. Hook up a 3.5" drive as a second unit, sure. But not as the boot drive. > With 2 720K drives and the full complement of DRAM (512K?), the 8512 > is actually a pretty decent system for general CP/M work. I'd rather have an Epson QX10 (my personal favourite CP/M machine). But I think the Amstrad PCW was a very sensible product. Bundling in a printer and word processing software meant it could be used out of the box for what a lot of people wanted a computer for. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Apr 24 14:07:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 12:07:15 -0700 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: <4BD1B121.3114.1A7C903@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 23, 10 02:39:29 pm, Message-ID: <4BD2DEF3.1965.E5E46A@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Apr 2010 at 19:31, Tony Duell wrote: > That's not something I would do, if only because it means the machine > can no longer use any of its native disks. Hook up a 3.5" drive as a > second unit, sure. But not as the boot drive. I didn't want to fool with the near -unobtainium-ness of the media here in the US. The original 3" drive was relocated to an external drive box that hooks to a PC. If I get the CF media, I can simply copy it over to 3.5". The 3" drives aren't the most reliable in the world; they often fall prey to disintegrating drive belts. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 24 14:10:25 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:10:25 -0400 Subject: Wang 1200 Trip In-Reply-To: <34BC9685-6407-4DDA-8508-8EC5CBA7CB91@colourfull.com> References: <34BC9685-6407-4DDA-8508-8EC5CBA7CB91@colourfull.com> Message-ID: On Apr 23, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > For those interested, I just picked up a Wang 1200 Word > processor. I have the trip story and some pictures at: > > http://borsuk.us/2010/04/23/wang-1200-word-processing-trip/ What a fascinating system...a dedicated word processor with hardcopy-only output and cassette storage! Do you know anything about its architecture, or how the cassettes are formatted? I'd love to explore one of these. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sat Apr 24 14:14:30 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:14:30 -0400 Subject: Wang 1200 Trip In-Reply-To: References: <34BC9685-6407-4DDA-8508-8EC5CBA7CB91@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <3628A581-D1BD-4AC4-B60B-93EEDE0F5A94@colourfull.com> Hi Dave, Jim Battle is on this one. Check out: http://www.wang1200.org/ Thanks Rob On Apr 24, 2010, at 3:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 23, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: >> For those interested, I just picked up a Wang 1200 Word processor. I have the trip story and some pictures at: >> >> http://borsuk.us/2010/04/23/wang-1200-word-processing-trip/ > > What a fascinating system...a dedicated word processor with hardcopy-only output and cassette storage! Do you know anything about its architecture, or how the cassettes are formatted? I'd love to explore one of these. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 24 14:47:04 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:47:04 -0400 Subject: Wang 1200 Trip In-Reply-To: <3628A581-D1BD-4AC4-B60B-93EEDE0F5A94@colourfull.com> References: <34BC9685-6407-4DDA-8508-8EC5CBA7CB91@colourfull.com> <3628A581-D1BD-4AC4-B60B-93EEDE0F5A94@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <465FFA80-281A-48CB-8847-5319A6590F1C@neurotica.com> Oh my, that is GOOD stuff. I know what I'll be digging into this afternoon! :) -Dave On Apr 24, 2010, at 3:14 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Hi Dave, > Jim Battle is on this one. Check out: > > http://www.wang1200.org/ > > > Thanks > Rob > > > On Apr 24, 2010, at 3:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On Apr 23, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: >>> For those interested, I just picked up a Wang 1200 Word >>> processor. I have the trip story and some pictures at: >>> >>> http://borsuk.us/2010/04/23/wang-1200-word-processing-trip/ >> >> What a fascinating system...a dedicated word processor with >> hardcopy-only output and cassette storage! Do you know anything >> about its architecture, or how the cassettes are formatted? I'd >> love to explore one of these. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 24 15:07:09 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:07:09 -0400 Subject: Wang 1200 Trip In-Reply-To: <3628A581-D1BD-4AC4-B60B-93EEDE0F5A94@colourfull.com> References: <34BC9685-6407-4DDA-8508-8EC5CBA7CB91@colourfull.com> <3628A581-D1BD-4AC4-B60B-93EEDE0F5A94@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4BD34F6D.2090608@atarimuseum.com> I loved the old days when computers were furniture. My first computer to ever see in person was a Compugraphic 7770 that my grandfather had in his micro-fiche and printing company in NJ. Curt Robert Borsuk wrote: > Hi Dave, > Jim Battle is on this one. Check out: > > http://www.wang1200.org/ > > > Thanks > Rob > > > On Apr 24, 2010, at 3:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> On Apr 23, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: >> >>> For those interested, I just picked up a Wang 1200 Word processor. I have the trip story and some pictures at: >>> >>> http://borsuk.us/2010/04/23/wang-1200-word-processing-trip/ >>> >> What a fascinating system...a dedicated word processor with hardcopy-only output and cassette storage! Do you know anything about its architecture, or how the cassettes are formatted? I'd love to explore one of these. >> >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> >> > > > From steve at cosam.org Sat Apr 24 15:25:04 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:25:04 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: <4BD05BEC.5050107@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BCF7DB6.60207@philpem.me.uk> <4BD05BEC.5050107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Philip Pemberton wrote: > I can rig up mailing lists, version control hosting (I usually use > Mercurial, but the server is set up for Subversion too, IIRC) and so on if > necessary. Perhaps a Wiki too? Philip has kindly set up a mailing list for this: http://mail.manx.philpem.me.uk/mailman/listinfo/ Please sign up there if you'd like to continue/follow the discussion. A wiki is in the works... Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 16:46:41 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 14:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop Message-ID: <877056.86490.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm looking for the 6 keytop from the numeric keypad for an Apple ///. I've already replaced the broken-off keyswitch, but, of course the keytop is long gone. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Apr 24 16:49:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:49:23 -0400 Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: <877056.86490.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <877056.86490.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2010, at 5:46 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I'm looking for the 6 keytop from the numeric keypad for an > Apple ///. I've already replaced the broken-off keyswitch, but, of > course the keytop is long gone. Should you happen to find a donor, I'm in need of a few /// keycaps as well. The machine is still in my car; I will check to see which ones I'm missing when I go out there. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 17:04:39 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:04:39 -0300 Subject: Looking for a proper HP keyboard References: <877056.86490.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <013301cae3fa$48f62320$9201a8c0@portajara> Dear sirs, I have a 16500A logic analyzer mainframe from HP. I'm looking for a proper keyboard, any chances? It is the same keyboard (connector looks like a RJ45) used on old HP computers Thanks Alexandre PS: I'm also looking for everything for it: Software, manuals, mouse, a way to connect a keyboard, etc) From steve at cosam.org Sat Apr 24 17:54:43 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:54:43 +0200 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: References: <4BCF7DB6.60207@philpem.me.uk> <4BD05BEC.5050107@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > A wiki is in the works... http://manx.philpem.me.uk/wiki/ Thanks, Phil! -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From rogpugh at mac.com Sat Apr 24 18:20:13 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 00:20:13 +0100 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD37CAD.3000703@mac.com> On 04/24/2010 19:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > But I think the Amstrad PCW was a very sensible product. Bundling in a > printer and word processing software meant it could be used out of the > box for what a lot of people wanted a computer for. > > -tony > I have 3 Amstrad PCW 512+ brand new in boxes if anyone is interested. To heavy to post but would swap.. I live in Sussex UK These have the 3.5 inch floppy drive 512K ram and a daisywheeel printer with sheetfeed. Complete with cp/m and locoscript disks. The only problem is that the drive belt in the floppy drive will have perished by now. Roger From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 18:45:01 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:45:01 -0700 Subject: Looking for a proper HP keyboard In-Reply-To: <013301cae3fa$48f62320$9201a8c0@portajara> References: <877056.86490.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <013301cae3fa$48f62320$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > ? Dear sirs, > > ? I have a 16500A logic analyzer mainframe from HP. I'm looking for a proper > keyboard, any chances? It is the same keyboard (connector looks like a RJ45) > used on old HP computers > > ? PS: I'm also looking for everything for it: Software, manuals, mouse, a > way to connect a keyboard, etc) > Are you missing the OS floppies for the 16500A? You can download a zip file from the Agilent website which contains the files for the OS floppies. It also contains a copy of LIFUTIL, which you will need to create the floppies from a PC. The Agilent website also has PDF manuals for the 16500A and most of the modules you can use with it. HP-HIL keyboards and mice shouldn't be too hard to find. They are often available on eBay but not always cheap. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Apr 24 20:50:31 2010 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 17:50:31 -0800 Subject: Wang 1200 Trip In-Reply-To: <4BD34F6D.2090608@atarimuseum.com> References: <34bc9685-6407-4dda-8508-8ec5cba7cb91@colourfull.com> <3628a581-d1bd-4ac4-b60b-93eede0f5a94@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <1EDC44516E8.000001B8n0body.h0me@inbox.com> I used to work for a company in Maryland that sold CADO computers-- alot of our older customers had systems that were in this "Computers as furniture" mode. WE also sold Redactron systems-- basically the WANG 1200 idea minus the furniture: deskside steel cabinet with a couple of cassete or magcard drives, and a selectric mechanism attached by a *THICK* umbilical. The Redactron used a sea MSI chips on a single logic board. > -----Original Message----- > From: curt at atarimuseum.com > Sent: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 16:07:09 -0400 > To: > Subject: Re: Wang 1200 Trip > > I loved the old days when computers were furniture. > > My first computer to ever see in person was a Compugraphic 7770 that my > grandfather had in his micro-fiche and printing company in NJ. > > > > Curt > > > > Robert Borsuk wrote: >> Hi Dave, >> Jim Battle is on this one. Check out: >> >> http://www.wang1200.org/ >> >> >> Thanks >> Rob >> >> >> On Apr 24, 2010, at 3:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> >>> On Apr 23, 2010, at 4:35 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote: >>> >>>> For those interested, I just picked up a Wang 1200 Word processor. >>>> I have the trip story and some pictures at: >>>> >>>> http://borsuk.us/2010/04/23/wang-1200-word-processing-trip/ >>>> >>> What a fascinating system...a dedicated word processor with >>> hardcopy-only output and cassette storage! Do you know anything about >>> its architecture, or how the cassettes are formatted? I'd love to >>> explore one of these. >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> -- >>> Dave McGuire >>> Port Charlotte, FL >>> >>> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________ GET FREE 5GB EMAIL - Check out spam free email with many cool features! Visit http://www.inbox.com/email to find out more! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 24 20:58:26 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 18:58:26 -0700 Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: References: <877056.86490.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:49 PM -0400 4/24/10, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Apr 24, 2010, at 5:46 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>I'm looking for the 6 keytop from the numeric keypad for an Apple >>///. I've already replaced the broken-off keyswitch, but, of course >>the keytop is long gone. > > Should you happen to find a donor, I'm in need of a few /// >keycaps as well. The machine is still in my car; I will check to >see which ones I'm missing when I go out there. I have a donor ///, or ///+ I'm not sure which, but it's buried in the garage. I can put the two of you on the list of stuff to keep an eye out for once I start cleaning things out if you want. I'm not sure the condition of the system itself, but I know the magic smoke has been let out of something. I salvaged it a few years ago to be a parts donor. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Apr 24 21:13:55 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:13:55 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about Infoton terminals? Message-ID: <4BD3A563.50101@mail.msu.edu> Picked up an old terminal today (even though I'm *supposed* to be slimming down my collection... sigh). Just couldn't resist. Its only identifying marks either internally or externally are the name "Infoton". There does not appear to be a model designation. I've put up some pictures at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/infoton/ (warning: large images) Logic appears to be TTL, there is no CPU as far as I can tell. Date codes on ICs are from '72-'73, and one of the boards and the keyboard PCB have labels indicating "12/73" so I assume this particular model is from late 1973. It appears to talk current loop and RS-232 but I have no idea what the wiring for the connector is (or even what *kind* of connector it is -- see the pictures above). I haven't had a chance to clean it up yet, but after a bit of contact cleaner on the power switch, it appears to work fine, at least in local mode. Seems to do 80x24 chars, uppercase only with underlining. Infoton shows up in termcap/terminfo entries, so that's a good start... Anyone know anything else about this beast (history, tech specs, etc?) I believe, from my research thus far, that Infoton later became General Terminal. (General Terminal is rather hard to search for on the 'net due to it being a fairly common phrase... so I'm not sure how helpful that's going to be...) Thanks as always, Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Apr 24 21:28:17 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:28:17 -0700 Subject: Anyone know anything about Infoton terminals? In-Reply-To: <4BD3A563.50101@mail.msu.edu> References: <4BD3A563.50101@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4BD3A8C1.7070905@bitsavers.org> On 4/24/10 7:13 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Picked up an old terminal today (even though I'm *supposed* to be > slimming down my collection... sigh). Just couldn't resist. > > Its only identifying marks either internally or externally are the name > "Infoton". Vista I'll see about scanning the users manual http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102683696 picture of a corner of one here: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102625116 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Apr 24 21:45:17 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <787683.65604.qm@web52606.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 4/24/10, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I have a donor ///, or ///+ I'm not sure which, but it's > buried in the garage.? I can put the two of you on the > list of stuff to keep an eye out for once I start cleaning > things out if you want. > > I'm not sure the condition of the system itself, but I know > the magic smoke has been let out of something.? I > salvaged it a few years ago to be a parts donor. I wouldn't suggest scrapping an entire machine just because Dave and I need a few keytops. The Apple /// is well known for it's ability to lose it's magic smoke. It's a fault of the power supply and is easily repaired. Mine had the same problem. I had the power supply working in very little time. Also, the ///+ uses a different keyboard... But, if the thing has real bad cosmetic damage, or something else horribly wrong with it, I'd be interested in the disk drive. -Ian From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 23:15:21 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 01:15:21 -0300 Subject: Looking for a proper HP keyboard References: <877056.86490.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com><013301cae3fa$48f62320$9201a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <005801cae42f$2afba090$3266e5c8@portajara> >The Agilent website also has PDF manuals for the 16500A and most of >the modules you can use with it. Thanks Glen! I downloaded everything and it is working :D >HP-HIL keyboards and mice shouldn't be too hard to find. They are >often available on eBay but not always cheap. I'm looking for a set (mouse/keyboard)). If anyone has a cheap kit... ;) From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Apr 25 06:07:03 2010 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:07:03 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <028801cae334$5a461f70$0ed25e50$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <454011E1114D49698D9FF6266A905452@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > I sniffed the packets a few days ago and posted this in my first post: Sorry, must have been before I started to follow the trhead. I have this lot lying around: KRAKAR::SYSTEM> dir sys$manager:*ucx*.log Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;130 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;129 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;128 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;127 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;126 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;125 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;124 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;123 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;122 Total of 9 files. Assuming your UCX keeps its logs in a similar place, have a look and see what you get. (Mine are all quite boring ... it works for me :-)). (And I'm sorry if you've done this already too ...) Antonio From lproven at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 08:36:33 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 14:36:33 +0100 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BD37CAD.3000703@mac.com> References: <4BD37CAD.3000703@mac.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 12:20 AM, Roger Pugh wrote: > On 04/24/2010 19:31, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> But I think the Amstrad PCW was a very sensible product. Bundling in a >> printer and word processing software meant it could be used out of the >> box for what a lot of people wanted a computer for. >> >> -tony >> > > I have 3 Amstrad PCW 512+ brand new in boxes if anyone is interested. ?To > heavy to post but would swap.. > I live in Sussex UK > > These have the 3.5 inch floppy drive 512K ram and a daisywheeel printer with > sheetfeed. > Complete with cp/m and locoscript disks. ?The only problem is that the drive > belt in the floppy drive will have perished by now. I don't know of a PCW 512+ but Wikipedia tells me there was a 9512+ with a 3?" drive instead of a 3" - is this the model you mean? I find myself strangely tempted, if so... Would Sir be interested in a classic Macintosh of some hue, at all? I have a few I wish to get rid of. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From rickb at bensene.com Sun Apr 25 09:47:56 2010 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 07:47:56 -0700 Subject: Wang 1200 Trip In-Reply-To: References: <34BC9685-6407-4DDA-8508-8EC5CBA7CB91@colourfull.com> Message-ID: > > What a fascinating system...a dedicated word processor with > hardcopy-only output and cassette storage! Do you know anything > about its architecture, or how the cassettes are formatted? I'd love > to explore one of these. > The logic of the 1200 word processor is a direct offshoot of the design of the Wang 700-Series Advanced Programmable calculators (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang720.html) . These calculators used a microcoded architecture that was actually patterned off of the micro-architecture of the IBM 360/30. When Dr. Wang realized that the calculator market was starting to shake out, and that the only players that would remain were those who could make their own large-scale integration ICs, he (and his senior team) decided that word processing would be the next wave. Wang had some experience in the field with the design they did for Compugraphic of a typesetting machine called the Linasec. With the micro-architecture they had for the calculator, as well as having modified IBM Selectrics for connection to the calculators as output devices, and the cassette tape system used in the calculator, they had all of the raw materials to make a word processor. Some new microcode and some minor circuitry changes to match the specifics of the word processor requirements, and the 1200 became a reality. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Apr 25 10:03:06 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 08:03:06 -0700 Subject: Infoton Message-ID: <4BD459AA.5060002@bitsavers.org> Actually, it is a Vistar, not a Vista http://bitsavers.org/pdf/infoton From rogpugh at mac.com Sun Apr 25 10:11:39 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:11:39 +0100 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: <4BD37CAD.3000703@mac.com> Message-ID: <4BD45BAB.1070009@mac.com> On 04/25/2010 14:36, Liam Proven wrote: > > I don't know of a PCW 512+ but Wikipedia tells me there was a 9512+ > with a 3?" drive instead of a 3" - is this the model you mean? > > I find myself strangely tempted, if so... Would Sir be interested in a > classic Macintosh of some hue, at all? I have a few I wish to get rid > of. > > Yep, i missed the 9 on the keyboard. its a 9512+ http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=190 from the Old computer bible :-) If i took in another Classic Mac, Mrs P would string me up by the unmentionables. however i'm willing to accept an IOU of something intresting if you want one tho, they are only sitting in a storage unit. contact further off list i think Roger From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 25 10:21:27 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 08:21:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <4BD45BAB.1070009@mac.com> from Roger Pugh at "Apr 25, 10 04:11:39 pm" Message-ID: <201004251521.o3PFLRXZ018068@floodgap.com> > If i took in another Classic Mac, Mrs P would string me up by the > unmentionables. I knew there was a reason I was unmarried. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Of course, what I really want is total world domination. -- Linus Torvalds - From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Apr 25 10:46:45 2010 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:46:45 -0400 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? Message-ID: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-April/285344.html [snip] >Can you relate your issues with Advanced Circuits, just so others who >might want to use them might be able to take it into account? > >Jim Hi Jim! Please don't get me wrong, I *like* Advanced Circuits and they've been great. I wish I was wealthy enough to do all my boards with them and surely would were I in business. Of course, the N8VEM project and the S-100 boards with John from S100Computers.com are basically self funded hobby projects and on "shoe string" budget. I really can't afford AC's premium quality boards though I wish I could. The trouble is with my ability to order boards from the AC website. Their special deals are internet only which is fair but when I try to upload my files to the AC website I get errors and cannot complete the order. The people at Advanced Circuits have been great and I have no complaints but for the last few orders I've had to call them and basically "finesse" my orders into the system using phone calls and email. I can see that is going to get old quickly and soon AC will run out of patience with me. Then I am screwed and need a new way to get prototype PCBs. I've worked with their IT people and the local sales rep to figure out the problem. They say the file upload connection is timing out someplace like there is a bad link between my network and theirs. The weird thing is that I can upload files to freeDFM.com which is also an AC free service as much as I want and it works reliably. Frankly, the whole problem makes no sense to me. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 25 10:53:30 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:53:30 -0400 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <201004251521.o3PFLRXZ018068@floodgap.com> References: <201004251521.o3PFLRXZ018068@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Apr 25, 2010, at 11:21 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> If i took in another Classic Mac, Mrs P would string me up by the >> unmentionables. > > I knew there was a reason I was unmarried. My live-in girlfriend likes the ASR-33 in the living room. It *is* possible to find significant others who actually like who we are and what we do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rogpugh at mac.com Sun Apr 25 11:07:22 2010 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:07:22 +0100 Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: References: <201004251521.o3PFLRXZ018068@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4BD468BA.50504@mac.com> On 04/25/2010 16:53, Dave McGuire wrote: > > My live-in girlfriend likes the ASR-33 in the living room. It *is* > possible to find significant others who actually like who we are and > what we do. I used to have a nice 100Mhz HP oscilloscope as a coffee table and a Mac Classic looked lovely in the Kitchen.. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 25 11:10:34 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 09:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Apr 25, 10 11:53:30 am" Message-ID: <201004251610.o3PGAYSx005522@floodgap.com> > > > If i took in another Classic Mac, Mrs P would string me up by the > > > unmentionables. > > > > I knew there was a reason I was unmarried. > > My live-in girlfriend likes the ASR-33 in the living room. It > *is* possible to find significant others who actually like who we are > and what we do. Just not very likely. ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 25 12:29:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 18:29:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for a proper HP keyboard In-Reply-To: <013301cae3fa$48f62320$9201a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Apr 24, 10 07:04:39 pm Message-ID: > > > Dear sirs, > > I have a 16500A logic analyzer mainframe from HP. I'm looking for a > proper keyboard, any chances? It is the same keyboard (connector looks like > a RJ45) used on old HP computers I suspect you mean an HP-HIL interfaced keyobard, this does have a flat 6 pin connector with latches on the sides. This keyboard was used on some HP9000 machines, the HP150-II, etc. Some older HP machines (HP150m, HP120, HP9816, etc) had their own custom-interfaced keyboards (all were different, although the first 2 I mentioned are closely related) using an RJ12 type plug. If it is HP-HIL (HP Human Interface Link, not to be confused with HPIL -- HP Interface Loop [1]) then it shouldn't be too hard to find a keyboard. The older one is an HP46020, the later one is an HP46021 (I believe they're compatible), Rik told me there as also an HP46030 (?) which sends different keycoeds and was used on the Vectra. I've never sene that one. [1] HP never made an HPIL keyboard, but there's a design for one (using the HP82166 converter) in 'Control the World with HPIL'. Where are you? I assume you're not in the UK, if you are I might be able to dig one out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 25 12:23:49 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 18:23:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: <877056.86490.qm@web52604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Apr 24, 10 02:46:41 pm Message-ID: > > I'm looking for the 6 keytop from the numeric keypad for an Apple ///. > I've already replaced the broken-off keyswitch, but, of course the > keytop is long gone. On a related subject, has anyone managed to make their own keycaps either by using ah ome-made injection moulding machine (I've seen a couple of books on this, and the average keycap is small enough to be made that way) or using one of htose rapid prototyping machines ('3D printers')? -tony From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 25 14:23:13 2010 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 15:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer Furniture (was Transfer files to/from N* CPM image?) In-Reply-To: References: <201004251521.o3PFLRXZ018068@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Apr 2010, Dave McGuire wrote: > My live-in girlfriend likes the ASR-33 in the living room. It *is* possible > to find significant others who actually like who we are and what we do. My wife tolerates an IBM 129 keypunch downstairs in the music studio, but says that's the limit. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 25 14:42:55 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:42:55 -0600 Subject: Computer Furniture (was Transfer files to/from N* CPM image?) In-Reply-To: References: <201004251521.o3PFLRXZ018068@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4BD49B3F.4090904@jetnet.ab.ca> Mike Loewen wrote: > My wife tolerates an IBM 129 keypunch downstairs in the music studio, > but says that's the limit. I was expecting , a player piano punch down there instead. :) > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Apr 25 15:10:46 2010 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:10:46 -0700 Subject: Infoton In-Reply-To: <4BD459AA.5060002@bitsavers.org> References: <4BD459AA.5060002@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4BD4A1C6.7060909@mail.msu.edu> Thanks a ton for scanning this stuff (and for identifying the thing in the first place...) Thanks! Josh Al Kossow wrote: > Actually, it is a Vistar, not a Vista > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/infoton > > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 25 15:46:33 2010 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:46:33 +0200 Subject: Looking for a proper HP keyboard In-Reply-To: References: <013301cae3fa$48f62320$9201a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza- Listas" at Apr 24, 10 07:04:39 pm Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 25 april 2010 19:29 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Looking for a proper HP keyboard > > > > > > > Dear sirs, > > > > I have a 16500A logic analyzer mainframe from HP. I'm > looking for > > a proper keyboard, any chances? It is the same keyboard (connector > > looks like a RJ45) used on old HP computers > > I suspect you mean an HP-HIL interfaced keyobard, this does > have a flat 6 pin connector with latches on the sides. This > keyboard was used on some HP9000 machines, the HP150-II, etc. > > Some older HP machines (HP150m, HP120, HP9816, etc) had their > own custom-interfaced keyboards (all were different, although > the first 2 I mentioned are closely related) using an RJ12 type plug. > > If it is HP-HIL (HP Human Interface Link, not to be confused > with HPIL -- HP Interface Loop [1]) then it shouldn't be too > hard to find a keyboard. > The older one is an HP46020, the later one is an HP46021 (I > believe they're compatible), Rik told me there as also an > HP46030 (?) which sends different keycoeds and was used on > the Vectra. I've never sene that one. Mmh, I presume I have to make a picture of it.. > [1] HP never made an HPIL keyboard, but there's a design for > one (using the HP82166 converter) in 'Control the World with HPIL'. > > Where are you? I assume you're not in the UK, if you are I > might be able to dig one out. > -Rik From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 25 15:52:30 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:52:30 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX 3100 Model 40 and 8MB memory modules Message-ID: <000401cae4b9$3a29a190$ae7ce4b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have a set of 8MB memory modules. Installing any two of these the Model 40 will recognise 16MB. If I install a second set in the second set of slots it only recognises 24MB, but I am sure that one point it recognised them as 32MB. Is it possible that my memory is not serving me correctly, do the second and third pairs of slots only support 4MB modules? Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 25 16:10:46 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:10:46 +0100 Subject: FTP from Windows to VMS In-Reply-To: <454011E1114D49698D9FF6266A905452@ANTONIOPC> References: <028801cae334$5a461f70$0ed25e50$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <454011E1114D49698D9FF6266A905452@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <000901cae4bb$c9e36260$5daa2720$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 25 April 2010 12:07 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: FTP from Windows to VMS > > Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > > > I sniffed the packets a few days ago and posted this in my first > post: > > Sorry, must have been before I started to follow the trhead. > > I have this lot lying around: > > KRAKAR::SYSTEM> dir sys$manager:*ucx*.log > > Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR] > > UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;130 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;129 > UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;128 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;127 > UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;126 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;125 > UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;124 UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;123 > UCX$FTPSERVER.LOG;122 > > Total of 9 files. > > Assuming your UCX keeps its logs in a similar place, have a look and > see what you get. (Mine are all quite boring ... it works for me :-)). > > (And I'm sorry if you've done this already too ...) > > Antonio The only related thing I could find is this: $ type tcpip$ftp_server.log; $ Set NoOn $ VERIFY = F$VERIFY(F$TRNLNM("SYLOGIN_VERIFY")) And this: $ type tcpip$ftp_server.log;-2 $ Set NoOn $ VERIFY = F$VERIFY(F$TRNLNM("SYLOGIN_VERIFY")) SYSTEM job terminated at 11-APR-2009 10:36:23.32 Accounting information: Buffered I/O count: 114 Peak working set size: 1266 Direct I/O count: 55 Peak page file size: 6702 Page faults: 3068 Mounted volumes: 0 Charged CPU time: 0 00:00:01.07 Elapsed time: 0 00:17:43.81 Have to say this looks really odd... Regards Rob From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Apr 25 16:29:57 2010 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:29:57 -0500 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: lynchaj at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE:low cost prototype PCB vendor? > Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:46:45 -0400 > > http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2010-April/285344.html > > [snip] > > >Can you relate your issues with Advanced Circuits, just so others who > >might want to use them might be able to take it into account? > > > >Jim > > Hi Jim! Please don't get me wrong, I *like* Advanced Circuits and they've > been great. I wish I was wealthy enough to do all my boards with them and > surely would were I in business. Of course, the N8VEM project and the S-100 > boards with John from S100Computers.com are basically self funded hobby > projects and on "shoe string" budget. I really can't afford AC's premium > quality boards though I wish I could. > > The trouble is with my ability to order boards from the AC website. Their > special deals are internet only which is fair but when I try to upload my > files to the AC website I get errors and cannot complete the order. The > people at Advanced Circuits have been great and I have no complaints but for > the last few orders I've had to call them and basically "finesse" my orders > into the system using phone calls and email. I can see that is going to get > old quickly and soon AC will run out of patience with me. Then I am screwed > and need a new way to get prototype PCBs. > > I've worked with their IT people and the local sales rep to figure out the > problem. They say the file upload connection is timing out someplace like > there is a bad link between my network and theirs. The weird thing is that > I can upload files to freeDFM.com which is also an AC free service as much > as I want and it works reliably. Frankly, the whole problem makes no sense > to me. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > > > > > Andrew Lynch > > > > Don't these guys all have FTP sites for uploading? Get away from a web page based file xfer, and your problems will go away. Wodows programs Filezilla and cute ftp both support retries on comm timeouts. Just a suggestion. Randy _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From brain at jbrain.com Sun Apr 25 17:04:28 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:04:28 -0500 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD4BC6C.4090507@jbrain.com> On 4/25/2010 10:46 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > I've worked with their IT people and the local sales rep to figure out the > problem. They say the file upload connection is timing out someplace like > there is a bad link between my network and theirs. The weird thing is that > I can upload files to freeDFM.com which is also an AC free service as much > as I want and it works reliably. Frankly, the whole problem makes no sense > to me. > I agree that does not make much sense. I don't have that issue with OurPCB, as I deal with them via email (email the gerbers, they email back a quote, etc.) To be honest, I got some Advance Circuits quotes on some previous jobs, and they were 2X the same price I could get from the current PCB supplier, so I never continued the discussion. I've heard good things about Gold Phoenix (I think BatchPCB uses them as the backend PCB manufacturer, which is also something to consider, but I need more certainty on my design timelines, and my design rules are often 4mil/4mil/12mil) In any event, if you want to try them out, I can save you some money by slipstreaming the boards into orders I have in the pipeline (I have some orders that will ship in a 2-4 weeks) so you don't have to pay shipping (well, just a buck or 3 from IA) Let me know. I'm happy to do that for anyone, within reason. Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 17:38:39 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 18:38:39 -0400 Subject: In Bay Area Message-ID: As with past years, this first week in May I will be in the SF Bay Area, and would certainly be interested in meeting fellow collectors and seeing their neat-o machines. So far I am meeting a few people, mostly for deliveries of things from far away, but can probably squeeze in a few more visits. Any takers? Please contact me off list. -- Will From hachti at hachti.de Sun Apr 25 18:08:45 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:08:45 +0200 Subject: Rusty pdp8/e chassis anyone? Message-ID: <4BD4CB7D.10600@hachti.de> Hi folks, today I slaughtered a pdp8/e computer. The guts will go into further use and repair of other machines, but the chassis underside is still there. As I have no use for it I'm offering it as free for everyone. It's just the lower part of the chassis. There's no Omnibus, not PSU, no nothing with it. And it's really really rusty. That's the reason why I decided to dismantle the system. If anyone is interested, let me know. The chassis could be brought back to life via sanding and repainting. Local pickup (northern Germany) preferred, shipping possible (but seems to be quite useless). Regards, Philipp From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Sat Apr 24 10:04:59 2010 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 11:04:59 -0400 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: References: <272678B1A73245FE91081CA131C58A46@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100424105502.024c06b8@verizon.net> In the latest IEEE Spectrum magazine there is an article on page 24, 'Hands On - Why stop at breadboarding when custom PCBs are easy to design and cheap to get made?', by James Turner. Summary of this: He used Eagle to design/layout the board (which seemed to be free), you have to do the trace routing manually, and your pcb is 'batched' with others to keep the price way down. At 02:52 PM 4/23/2010, you wrote: >On 4/22/10, Andrew Lynch wrote: > > Hi! It pains me to ask this, what vendors are hobbyists using > for low cost, > > low quantity prototype PCBs? > >I had a run recently done by Gold Phoenix >(http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/) - 2 layer board, approx 3"x3.5", 100% >through-hole design, no fancy features (it was an 80C52 design that is >now sporting an ATmega8515). I sent them Gerber files from EagleCAD >and they panellized for free - their work size is 155 sq in, so I got >16 boards for $99. For the application at hand, it was a good deal >and I was happy with the results. > >Gold Phoenix was recommended to me by the Makerbot guys. I've done >one run and was entirely satisfied. We will probably do a "Rev 2" >through them as well. > >-ethan From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 14:42:13 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, I think we can assume for the mom,ent that the head possitioner > in ytour drive is working peoperly. > >> mass involved! > >>> What error do you get if you try to read them? Does it manage to find >>> anything? >> >> No, it fails 64 times to read every sector on every track. > > YEs, but what is it failing to do? Can it find the sctory (== read the > header)? No. The test is specifically to test whether it can read the headers and can't read any of them. More when I get time later this weekend to put the scope on it. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 14:47:05 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 15:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > Is this a hard sectored dirve? In any case does the cotnroller use the > index pulse fro anyhting? Is that presnet and correct? Sorry, didn't answer this part of your post: From my read of the technical manual, it is hard sectored. There's a dedicated index track on the bottom of the lowest platter and a dedicated, fixed head to read it. It's more of a synchronous counter than a sector pulse. There are DIP switches on the board to set up a divider circuit that turns this pulse train into discrete, properly-spaced index pulses. Thus, the sector size is configurable. Steve -- From chrise at pobox.com Sat Apr 24 19:22:39 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 19:22:39 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey Message-ID: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> I obtained an Intel SDK-85 eval board some time ago and decided to try to bring it back to life today. It had been part of a Philips logic analyzer demo system apparently. They had cut off the prototyping area on the left side and put their own board there instead... which had a 2716 EPROM on it and some hardware to generate glitches as part of the logic analyzer demo I guess. In any case, I undid all of their mods (except of course, putting the sawed off prototype section back on!) and the unit sort of works. What I have discovered is that the 8355 ROM+IO chip is flakey. It won't work unless I freeze it with component cooler. Once I have done that, then it starts working and stays working for hours as long as power is not removed. If it gets powered down, then I have to freeze it again before the device will respond with valid fetches. I don't suppose anyone has a spare 8355 with SDK-85 monitor burned in it do they? I'm guessing that's probably unobtainium so, failing that, wondering if there's a .HEX of the ROM image floating around so that I don't have to type it all in. If I have the bits, I can burn a 8755 that drops into the same location. Any guesses as to what the failure mode might be of the 8355? It is sort of curious that once it gets started from frozen, it keeps working nicely. I already did my time at ETA, cooling chips in liquid nitrogen so that's kind of behind me now ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Apr 25 21:35:52 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:35:52 -0700 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100424105502.024c06b8@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/10 8:04 AM, "Douglas Taylor" wrote: > In the latest IEEE Spectrum magazine there is an article on page 24, > 'Hands On - Why stop at breadboarding when custom PCBs are easy to > design and cheap to get made?', by James Turner. > > Summary of this: He used Eagle to design/layout the board (which > seemed to be free), you have to do the trace routing manually, and > your pcb is 'batched' with others to keep the price way down. There are some definite limits to the free eagle, there is a max size to the PCB's. And if you are selling the resulting board, it's in violation of the license (I asked, even if you aren't making a profit, it's a violation of the license :( ) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Apr 25 21:51:16 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 22:51:16 -0400 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:22 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I obtained an Intel SDK-85 eval board some time ago and decided to try > to bring it back to life today. It had been part of a Philips logic > analyzer demo system apparently. They had cut off the prototyping > area > on the left side and put their own board there instead... which had a > 2716 EPROM on it and some hardware to generate glitches as part of the > logic analyzer demo I guess. Neat! > In any case, I undid all of their mods (except of course, putting the > sawed off prototype section back on!) and the unit sort of works. Innnnteresting. > What I have discovered is that the 8355 ROM+IO chip is flakey. It > won't > work unless I freeze it with component cooler. Once I have done that, > then it starts working and stays working for hours as long as power is > not removed. If it gets powered down, then I have to freeze it again > before the device will respond with valid fetches. Bizarre. > I don't suppose anyone has a spare 8355 with SDK-85 monitor burned in > it do they? > > I'm guessing that's probably unobtainium so, failing that, > wondering if > there's a .HEX of the ROM image floating around so that I don't > have to > type it all in. If I have the bits, I can burn a 8755 that drops > into > the same location. I have an SDK-85 handy; I'll see if my UniSite can read it when configured for an 8755. I'll send you a hex file if I'm successful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 25 22:19:25 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 20:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PPC 601 and mftb/mftbu Message-ID: <201004260319.o3Q3JPdj013722@floodgap.com> Okay, old PPC hands, here's today's challenge. I finished porting SpiderMonkey (the pure C JavaScript reference implementation) to Classilla, which is the web browser I maintain for classic Power Macintoshes in OS 8.6 and 9, and it works great. So, for an encore, I decided to see how feasible porting TraceMonkey would be, which precompiles selected portions into assembly using a "nanojit." I started working on translating the inline assembly into CodeWarrior, but CodeWarrior did not like my conversion of their "rdtsc" function, which uses the mftb/mftbu instructions. The reason is that I'm compiling for 601, and CodeWarrior will only assemble those instructions for 603 and higher. Anyone know of an equivalent for 601 that will still work on 603+? Or am I as dead in the water as I suspect? Mind you, I don't even know if the rest of this will work on 603s or 604s, so this might just be the first of a whole mess of problems. I wasn't sure if it would work in the first place, and SpiderMonkey already cut Classilla's JavaScript execution time in half, so it's not like this is a catastrophe. Still, I'd love to get JIT compilation working if I can. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If the dictionary misspells a word, how would you know? -- Steven Wright --- From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Apr 25 23:42:48 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 23:42:48 -0500 Subject: Geek stuff auction In-Reply-To: <4BD483DA.5090608@xs4all.nl> References: <4BD483DA.5090608@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: The HiPAS site in Fairbanks that did aurora research for ~30 years is shut down and being auctioned off...besides the office supplies and coffee makers, there is a lot of test equipment and such. Not much strictly classiccmp, although there is a VT100 :) http://www.proxibid.com/asp/Catalog.asp?aid=27290 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Apr 25 23:57:21 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Computer Journal (Citrus Heights version) Message-ID: Has anyone digitized The Computer Journal[1]? I have a collection of issues from 15-21, 23-26, 30-41, 51, 53, 56-59, 61, 62, 65-72, 74-80. [1] Not the one by the Oxford University Press, but the one published by someone in Citrus Heights California. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Apr 26 00:08:11 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:08:11 -0400 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <036D1E2F-41A2-4F80-887D-B6463C2D880B@neurotica.com> On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:22 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I'm guessing that's probably unobtainium so, failing that, > wondering if > there's a .HEX of the ROM image floating around so that I don't > have to > type it all in. If I have the bits, I can burn a 8755 that drops > into > the same location. Hmm, weird. I tried to read the ROM contents from the 8355 in my SDK-85, but my Data I/O UniSite, when configured for an 8755A, complains of a device insertion error. Everything is set up properly, and the UniSite is fine, I use it all the time. I've checked the databooks and the 8355 and the 8755 should be completely interchangeable with the obvious exception of programmability. I've not fired up this SDK-85 for a few years, but it worked fine then. I have to go to sleep soon, and I'll be out for much of the day tomorrow, but perhaps tomorrow night I'll be able to wire it up to a power supply and see if it still runs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 26 07:51:26 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:51:26 +0200 Subject: RK8E controller board revisions - Chaos ahead, help needed Message-ID: <4BD58C4E.7010402@hachti.de> Hi folks, I'm currently dealing with some RK8E Omnibus RK05 controller board sets. I was unable to assemble even one stable RK8E from the stuff. I assume a high failure rate. But I also assume that I have board revision problems. I've been told that several revisions existed. And that there were compatibility issues and some kind of paper (which I do not have) telling what fits what. I don't even know if the revisions are PCB revisions like "M7104 B2" written in the etch or if there are also FCOs or alike that make boards with same etch incompatible to other boards. My personal RK8E passes all tests. It consists of: M7104 B2 M7105 B1 M7106 C But I have other boards flying around here as well. Do stamps like "310 D" on the backside of the boards have any meaning with respect to board revision or FCO level? Another question is how to get different board revisions associated with the right schematics. I strongly appreciate any piece of enlightenment since I'm currently getting depressed by that stuff. Even if I have bad boards - it won't make sense to try to repair something if the whole is inconsistent in itself. Many thanks, Philipp From shumaker at att.net Mon Apr 26 08:38:43 2010 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:38:43 -0400 Subject: The Computer Journal (Citrus Heights version) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD59763.60609@att.net> Yes. go here: http://www.kiblerelectronics.com/ Steve Shumaker David Griffith wrote: > > Has anyone digitized The Computer Journal[1]? I have a collection of > issues from 15-21, 23-26, 30-41, 51, 53, 56-59, 61, 62, 65-72, 74-80. > > > [1] Not the one by the Oxford University Press, but the one published > by someone in Citrus Heights California. > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Apr 26 08:53:56 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:53:56 -0700 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <036D1E2F-41A2-4F80-887D-B6463C2D880B@neurotica.com> References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net>, <036D1E2F-41A2-4F80-887D-B6463C2D880B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Subject: Re: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 01:08:11 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; chrise at pobox.com > CC: cctech at classiccmp.org > > On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:22 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > I'm guessing that's probably unobtainium so, failing that, > > wondering if > > there's a .HEX of the ROM image floating around so that I don't > > have to > > type it all in. If I have the bits, I can burn a 8755 that drops > > into > > the same location. > > Hmm, weird. I tried to read the ROM contents from the 8355 in my > SDK-85, but my Data I/O UniSite, when configured for an 8755A, > complains of a device insertion error. Everything is set up > properly, and the UniSite is fine, I use it all the time. I've > checked the databooks and the 8355 and the 8755 should be completely > interchangeable with the obvious exception of programmability. Hi I don't have a data book handy but it seems that I recall that the 8355 can have a programmed inversion on one of the select lines. There is also a difference between the 8755 and 8755A as I recall as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From vrs at msn.com Mon Apr 26 09:32:09 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 07:32:09 -0700 Subject: RK8E controller board revisions - Chaos ahead, help needed References: <4BD58C4E.7010402@hachti.de> Message-ID: > I'm currently dealing with some RK8E Omnibus RK05 controller board sets. > > I was unable to assemble even one stable RK8E from the stuff. I assume a > high failure rate. But I also assume that I have board revision > problems. I've been told that several revisions existed. And that there > were compatibility issues and some kind of paper (which I do not have) > telling what fits what. > I don't even know if the revisions are PCB revisions like "M7104 B2" > written in the etch or if there are also FCOs or alike that make boards > with same etch incompatible to other boards. It is possible that some of your boards are actually for an RK8F instead of an RK8E. I understand there were some blue-wire differences, and I'd certainly not expect RK8F stuff to work anywhere but in the DW8E (and with the rest of an RK8F). > But I have other boards flying around here as well. > > Do stamps like "310 D" on the backside of the boards have any meaning > with respect to board revision or FCO level? > > Another question is how to get different board revisions associated > with the right schematics. > > I strongly appreciate any piece of enlightenment since I'm currently > getting depressed by that stuff. Even if I have bad boards - it won't > make sense to try to repair something if the whole is inconsistent in > itself. I'd also be interested to see some kind of write-up about how to distinguish these boards in the field. Vince From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 26 10:39:27 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:39:27 +0200 Subject: RK8E controller board revisions - Chaos ahead, help needed In-Reply-To: References: <4BD58C4E.7010402@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BD5B3AF.50800@hachti.de> > It is possible that some of your boards are actually for an RK8F instead > of an RK8E. I understand there were some blue-wire differences, and I'd > certainly not expect RK8F stuff to work anywhere but in the DW8E (and > with the rest of an RK8F). Oh.. What is DW8E? What is RK8F? What is a blue-wire? > I'd also be interested to see some kind of write-up about how to > distinguish these boards in the field. I've been told that it exists. But I have no idea how to access the information. - Philipp From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Apr 26 10:40:35 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 08:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Low level formatting an Apple Profile hard disk Message-ID: <720579.17169.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm looking for the requisite ROM image and software to low level format a Profile 5mb hard disk on an Apple III. From what I've read, I need a 2k ROM plugged into a Zilog Z8603 that replaces a chip on the controller board, and format utility booted from floppy. So... Does anyone have this software? Burning an eprom and writing a disk are not a problem - I just can't find the ROM image/software anywhere. -Ian From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 11:25:57 2010 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:25:57 +0100 Subject: Free DAT tapes Message-ID: Does anyone have a need for DDS2 tapes any more? I gave away my last drive to a list member, meaning I have tons of blank tapes lying around - many new, shrinkwrapped, some in boxes of 5 or more. Free for the postage or you can collect. They're in London, England. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From vrs at msn.com Mon Apr 26 12:11:08 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 10:11:08 -0700 Subject: RK8E controller board revisions - Chaos ahead, help needed References: <4BD58C4E.7010402@hachti.de> <4BD5B3AF.50800@hachti.de> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Hachtmann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 8:39 AM >> I understand there were some blue-wire differences, and I'd certainly not >> expect RK8F stuff to work anywhere but in the DW8E (and >> with the rest of an RK8F). > Oh.. What is DW8E? What is RK8F? What is a blue-wire? >From http://pdp-8.org/notes.txt: DW8E-P Lets omnibus periphs run on posibus machines. Does not fully support data-break. Supports RK8F, DB8E, KL8E & KL8F. RK8-F RK8-E RK05 controller that works on a DW8E. I have RK8E and RK8F controllers in the basement. I suppose if all else fails I could dig them out and compare them. My understanding is that the DW8E does something funky about data break, and that the RK8F has changes (presumably implemented with blue wires) that make it work in that environment, rather than with proper Omnibus data break. I do remember noticing that the engineering drawings are slightly different, but I don't believe I ever made a list of the differences. Vince From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 26 12:25:13 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:25:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20100424105502.024c06b8@verizon.net> from "Douglas Taylor" at Apr 24, 10 11:04:59 am Message-ID: > > In the latest IEEE Spectrum magazine there is an article on page 24, > 'Hands On - Why stop at breadboarding when custom PCBs are easy to > design and cheap to get made?', by James Turner. I can think of one very good reason : If you're the sort of mortal whose designed don't always work first time, or if you prefer to desgin a bit, get that working, add on the next bit, and so on, then it's a lot easier to do tha, make changes, modify things on prototyping board than on a PCB. And I wondeer... For a one-off project how does the time taken to lay out the PCB check it, etc compare to thr time taken to wire it up by hand on a prototyping board. There is also the issue that after e-mailing in the gerber files, you still have to wait a couple of days for the PCBs to come, Personally I like to be able to check my design while it's still very fresh in my mind. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 26 12:28:46 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:28:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 24, 10 03:47:05 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 24 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Is this a hard sectored dirve? In any case does the cotnroller use the > > index pulse fro anyhting? Is that presnet and correct? > > Sorry, didn't answer this part of your post: From my read of the > technical manual, it is hard sectored. There's a dedicated index track on Well, it _may_ be... I've had another look at the manual on Bitsavers. There's a clock track on the bottom platter with a fixed head (as you say). This seems ot be used as the feedback of the motor speed control, it also can be divided down to produce the sector pulse or a bit clock. Of course the controller doesn't have to use that signal. Unfortuately much of this circuitry seems to be in one of the gate arrays. This will make it difficult to debug and even more diffuclt to repair. I hope that's not the problem. But I woul still check it. See if tyhe motor speed feedback signal looks sensible too while you're in there.. And also, of course ,look at the read data signal. Does it look senesible? Could this be a controller problem? Do you know whether either the controller of drive are definitely OK? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 26 12:34:40 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:34:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for a proper HP keyboard In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Apr 25, 10 10:46:33 pm Message-ID: > > Rik told me there as also an > > HP46030 (?) which sends different keycoeds and was used on > > the Vectra. I've never sene that one. > > Mmh, I presume I have to make a picture of it.. This may come as a suprise to you, but I do know what a keyboard looks like :-). I even know what a PC keybaord looks like :-). WHen I said I'd never seen one, that;s literally true. But seeing the outside of one woul;dn't tell me much about it. Taking it a part might. I would want to see if it was close to either of the other HP-HIL keyboards (which as I am sure you're aware [1] are very different inside). If it was close to the 46020 in design, I would see if the COP400 had the same HP house number (implying the same firmware). I'd also see how the ID byte diodes were connected. And maybe trace out the key matrix. And I am not going to be able to do that from a photograph :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 26 12:31:37 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 18:31:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Apr 24, 10 07:22:39 pm Message-ID: > > > I obtained an Intel SDK-85 eval board some time ago and decided to try > to bring it back to life today. It had been part of a Philips logic > analyzer demo system apparently. They had cut off the prototyping area > on the left side and put their own board there instead... which had a > 2716 EPROM on it and some hardware to generate glitches as part of the > logic analyzer demo I guess. > > In any case, I undid all of their mods (except of course, putting the > sawed off prototype section back on!) and the unit sort of works. > > What I have discovered is that the 8355 ROM+IO chip is flakey. It won't > work unless I freeze it with component cooler. Once I have done that, > then it starts working and stays working for hours as long as power is > not removed. If it gets powered down, then I have to freeze it again > before the device will respond with valid fetches. > > I don't suppose anyone has a spare 8355 with SDK-85 monitor burned in > it do they? Alas not. But if the device works if you cool it, can't you read it out when it's been cooled? Surely the SDK-85 has some kind of I/O port you could dump it to. And then burn the bits into an 8755 as you suggested. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 12:59:45 2010 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:59:45 -0400 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD5D491.5030604@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> In the latest IEEE Spectrum magazine there is an article on page 24, >> 'Hands On - Why stop at breadboarding when custom PCBs are easy to >> design and cheap to get made?', by James Turner. > > I can think of one very good reason : If you're the sort of mortal whose > designed don't always work first time, or if you prefer to desgin a bit, > get that working, add on the next bit, and so on, then it's a lot easier > to do tha, make changes, modify things on prototyping board than on a PCB. One thing I've noticed, though, is that, if I'm planning on making a PCB at any time, it helps for me to route the board *before* I build the prototype. Then, if any changes are necessary, I just work on the existing design. That saves me from having to generate a design from a prototype, which, in my experience, has led to things coming out less than elegant. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 26 13:03:30 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 11:03:30 -0700 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100424105502.024c06b8@verizon.net> from "Douglas Taylor" at Apr 24, 10 11:04:59 am, Message-ID: <4BD57302.12567.55A308@cclist.sydex.com> I do a lot of one-off things (they're for my own use, not particularly anything the general public would find useful). A PCB would be a waste of time, and as Tony mentioned, not amenable to easy modification without doing a new run. I still use wire-wrap. The finished product is easily modifiable and will turn in reliable performance for as long as I care to use it. --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 13:51:02 2010 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:51:02 -0500 Subject: RK8E controller board revisions - Chaos ahead, help needed In-Reply-To: <4BD58C4E.7010402@hachti.de> References: <4BD58C4E.7010402@hachti.de> Message-ID: Hi Philipp, The B2, B1, and C are the etch levels of the boards. The 310D means the board was made in 1973 or maybe 1983 during the 10th week. The D is the eco/fco rev of the board. I still have some other thing to go over with you off list, and will try to get to them this week. Paul On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm currently dealing with some RK8E Omnibus RK05 controller board sets. > > I was unable to assemble even one stable RK8E from the stuff. I assume a > high failure rate. But I also assume that I have board revision problems. > I've been told that several revisions existed. And that there were > compatibility issues and some kind of paper (which I do not have) telling > what fits what. > I don't even know if the revisions are PCB revisions like "M7104 B2" > written in the etch or if there are also FCOs or alike that make boards with > same etch incompatible to other boards. > > My personal RK8E passes all tests. It consists of: > > M7104 B2 > M7105 B1 > M7106 C > > But I have other boards flying around here as well. > > Do stamps like "310 D" on the backside of the boards have any meaning with > respect to board revision or FCO level? > > Another question is how to get different board revisions associated with > the right schematics. > > I strongly appreciate any piece of enlightenment since I'm currently > getting depressed by that stuff. Even if I have bad boards - it won't make > sense to try to repair something if the whole is inconsistent in itself. > > Many thanks, > > Philipp > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 26 13:58:43 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:58:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <4BD57302.12567.55A308@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 26, 10 11:03:30 am Message-ID: > > I do a lot of one-off things (they're for my own use, not > particularly anything the general public would find useful). A PCB Yes, that was the sort of thing I had in mind. Obviously if you are going to make several instances of thedevice, a PCB makes a lot of sense, if only because it ensures that all devices are gernuinely the same design. That's one time I would consider making a PCB for my own design. Another (of course) is if I need a particular configuration of edge fingers to fit into an edge conenctor on an existing device. > would be a waste of time, and as Tony mentioned, not amenable to easy > modification without doing a new run. > > I still use wire-wrap. The finished product is easily modifiable and So do I (although the sockets are dern expensive). I also use the roadrunner pen a lot. And sometimes point-to-point wiring on stripboard (I find the wire-wrap wire is ideal for this, it's thin, and it takes solder very easily). > will turn in reliable performance for as long as I care to use it. Wirei wrapping is very reliable if done properly. -tony From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 26 14:02:47 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 21:02:47 +0200 Subject: RK8E controller board revisions - Chaos ahead, help needed In-Reply-To: References: <4BD58C4E.7010402@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BD5E357.9020101@hachti.de> Hi, > The B2, B1, and C are the etch levels of the boards. The 310D means the > board was made in 1973 or maybe 1983 during the 10th week. The D is the > eco/fco rev of the board. Ok, etch level is somewhat clear to me - it's marked in copper. And the eco/fco stuff - how to keep track of that? And what stands the D really for? A combination of board revision and eco level? I'd like to know how to get the right schematic etc. In the RK8E schematics for example I read "revision a" for the board. Does that refer to the etch revision or the overall version of the board including ecos and probably applied fcos? Is there some kind of straightforward record of eco and fco levels? What about the relationship between factory installed ecos and fcos? Are they equivalent? To me it's all not that clear... Regards, Philipp > > I still have some other thing to go over with you off list, and will try to > get to them this week. > > Paul > On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> I'm currently dealing with some RK8E Omnibus RK05 controller board sets. >> >> I was unable to assemble even one stable RK8E from the stuff. I assume a >> high failure rate. But I also assume that I have board revision problems. >> I've been told that several revisions existed. And that there were >> compatibility issues and some kind of paper (which I do not have) telling >> what fits what. >> I don't even know if the revisions are PCB revisions like "M7104 B2" >> written in the etch or if there are also FCOs or alike that make boards with >> same etch incompatible to other boards. >> >> My personal RK8E passes all tests. It consists of: >> >> M7104 B2 >> M7105 B1 >> M7106 C >> >> But I have other boards flying around here as well. >> >> Do stamps like "310 D" on the backside of the boards have any meaning with >> respect to board revision or FCO level? >> >> Another question is how to get different board revisions associated with >> the right schematics. >> >> I strongly appreciate any piece of enlightenment since I'm currently >> getting depressed by that stuff. Even if I have bad boards - it won't make >> sense to try to repair something if the whole is inconsistent in itself. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Philipp >> From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Apr 26 15:03:23 2010 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 13:03:23 -0700 Subject: RK8E controller board revisions - Chaos ahead, help needed In-Reply-To: <4BD5E357.9020101@hachti.de> References: <4BD58C4E.7010402@hachti.de> <4BD5E357.9020101@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4BD5F18B.3030904@mindspring.com> Check out the PDP-8e ECO log document on bitsavers.org: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/PDP-8E_ECO_LOG_Dec74.pdf Pages 313-315 have details on the M7104-6 modules Don On 4/26/2010 12:02 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi, > >> The B2, B1, and C are the etch levels of the boards. The 310D means the >> board was made in 1973 or maybe 1983 during the 10th week. The D is the >> eco/fco rev of the board. > Ok, etch level is somewhat clear to me - it's marked in copper. And > the eco/fco stuff - how to keep track of that? And what stands the D > really for? A combination of board revision and eco level? > I'd like to know how to get the right schematic etc. > In the RK8E schematics for example I read "revision a" for the board. > Does that refer to the etch revision or the overall version of the > board including ecos and probably applied fcos? > Is there some kind of straightforward record of eco and fco levels? > What about the relationship between factory installed ecos and fcos? > Are they equivalent? > > To me it's all not that clear... > > Regards, > > Philipp > > >> >> I still have some other thing to go over with you off list, and will >> try to >> get to them this week. >> >> Paul >> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Philipp Hachtmann >> wrote: >> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> I'm currently dealing with some RK8E Omnibus RK05 controller board >>> sets. >>> >>> I was unable to assemble even one stable RK8E from the stuff. I >>> assume a >>> high failure rate. But I also assume that I have board revision >>> problems. >>> I've been told that several revisions existed. And that there were >>> compatibility issues and some kind of paper (which I do not have) >>> telling >>> what fits what. >>> I don't even know if the revisions are PCB revisions like "M7104 B2" >>> written in the etch or if there are also FCOs or alike that make >>> boards with >>> same etch incompatible to other boards. >>> >>> My personal RK8E passes all tests. It consists of: >>> >>> M7104 B2 >>> M7105 B1 >>> M7106 C >>> >>> But I have other boards flying around here as well. >>> >>> Do stamps like "310 D" on the backside of the boards have any >>> meaning with >>> respect to board revision or FCO level? >>> >>> Another question is how to get different board revisions associated >>> with >>> the right schematics. >>> >>> I strongly appreciate any piece of enlightenment since I'm currently >>> getting depressed by that stuff. Even if I have bad boards - it >>> won't make >>> sense to try to repair something if the whole is inconsistent in >>> itself. >>> >>> Many thanks, >>> >>> Philipp >>> > > From hachti at hachti.de Mon Apr 26 16:23:55 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:23:55 +0200 Subject: RK8E controller board revisions - Chaos ahead, help needed In-Reply-To: <4BD5F18B.3030904@mindspring.com> References: <4BD58C4E.7010402@hachti.de> <4BD5E357.9020101@hachti.de> <4BD5F18B.3030904@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4BD6046B.2030409@hachti.de> Don North wrote: > Check out the PDP-8e ECO log document on bitsavers.org: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8e/PDP-8E_ECO_LOG_Dec74.pdf Wow! That looks like what I've asked for. Cool! I did not notice that document before. Thank you for the hint! Regards, Philipp > > Pages 313-315 have details on the M7104-6 modules > > Don > > > > On 4/26/2010 12:02 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> Hi, >> >>> The B2, B1, and C are the etch levels of the boards. The 310D means the >>> board was made in 1973 or maybe 1983 during the 10th week. The D is the >>> eco/fco rev of the board. >> Ok, etch level is somewhat clear to me - it's marked in copper. And >> the eco/fco stuff - how to keep track of that? And what stands the D >> really for? A combination of board revision and eco level? >> I'd like to know how to get the right schematic etc. >> In the RK8E schematics for example I read "revision a" for the board. >> Does that refer to the etch revision or the overall version of the >> board including ecos and probably applied fcos? >> Is there some kind of straightforward record of eco and fco levels? >> What about the relationship between factory installed ecos and fcos? >> Are they equivalent? >> >> To me it's all not that clear... >> >> Regards, >> >> Philipp >> >> >>> >>> I still have some other thing to go over with you off list, and will >>> try to >>> get to them this week. >>> >>> Paul >>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 7:51 AM, Philipp Hachtmann >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi folks, >>>> >>>> I'm currently dealing with some RK8E Omnibus RK05 controller board >>>> sets. >>>> >>>> I was unable to assemble even one stable RK8E from the stuff. I >>>> assume a >>>> high failure rate. But I also assume that I have board revision >>>> problems. >>>> I've been told that several revisions existed. And that there were >>>> compatibility issues and some kind of paper (which I do not have) >>>> telling >>>> what fits what. >>>> I don't even know if the revisions are PCB revisions like "M7104 B2" >>>> written in the etch or if there are also FCOs or alike that make >>>> boards with >>>> same etch incompatible to other boards. >>>> >>>> My personal RK8E passes all tests. It consists of: >>>> >>>> M7104 B2 >>>> M7105 B1 >>>> M7106 C >>>> >>>> But I have other boards flying around here as well. >>>> >>>> Do stamps like "310 D" on the backside of the boards have any >>>> meaning with >>>> respect to board revision or FCO level? >>>> >>>> Another question is how to get different board revisions associated >>>> with >>>> the right schematics. >>>> >>>> I strongly appreciate any piece of enlightenment since I'm currently >>>> getting depressed by that stuff. Even if I have bad boards - it >>>> won't make >>>> sense to try to repair something if the whole is inconsistent in >>>> itself. >>>> >>>> Many thanks, >>>> >>>> Philipp >>>> >> >> From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Apr 26 16:32:53 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:32:53 +0100 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <4BD57302.12567.55A308@cclist.sydex.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100424105502.024c06b8@verizon.net> from "Douglas Taylor" at Apr 24, 10 11:04:59 am, <4BD57302.12567.55A308@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BD60685.7000003@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I still use wire-wrap. The finished product is easily modifiable and > will turn in reliable performance for as long as I care to use it. I've got the tools to do wire-wrap, but none of the boards, sockets or hardware (it seems WW IC sockets have become rather difficult to source). The long pins also tend to get in the way IMO... To be honest, I prefer the RoadRunner point-to-point wiring pens. They're a bit like wire-wrap, but you use enamelled copper wire which is soldered to the component (or socket) pins like a PCB "ratsnest". Though admittedly it is a good idea to use wiring guides (aka "wiring castellations" -- they look a bit like the battlements on top of castle towers) to keep the wires tidy. I usually have one of these between each row of ICs, then route all the wiring inside them -- it keeps things much tidier, though it's not as easy to trace a fault. Replacing resistors etc. is usually best done by nipping off the old component pins at the body of the part, and soldering the new part to the stubs... it's very much a one-shot prototyping system. One of these days I need to find some software that can take an CAD netlist and produce a wire-wrap wiring list using the "top and bottom" technique (that is, wires are "on top" at one end and "on the bottom" at the other, thus making any changes possible with the removal of at most one wire). I know this has been done in the past, though I don't think any of the EDA software that did it has survived... :( (Even if it was designed for Wire-Wrap, it might be useful for the Roadrunner system too) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Apr 26 16:49:17 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:49:17 -0700 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <4BD60685.7000003@philpem.me.uk> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100424105502.024c06b8@verizon.net>, <4BD57302.12567.55A308@cclist.sydex.com>, <4BD60685.7000003@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BD5A7ED.18516.124593F@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2010 at 22:32, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've got the tools to do wire-wrap, but none of the boards, sockets or > hardware (it seems WW IC sockets have become rather difficult to > source). The long pins also tend to get in the way IMO... I use one-sided 0.060" PCB blank stock, drill the holes and then use push-in wirewrap pins. The underside copper is cleaned from around the hole by using a hand-held 3/16" drill bit (a turn or so, and the copper around the hole is gone). If I need solder pads on the bottom, a diamond core bit in a Foredom handset works well. It looks good and gives me a great ground plane. I run 20 AWG bare copper wire between rows on the top of the board, using a pin both to solder the wire to and to hold one leg of a decoupling capacitor. For those components requiring a little help in attaching to the board, a drop or so of polyurethane glue does the trick. In terms of effort, it's probably a wash with etching your own PCB, but is lots easier to modify. I can wrap pretty fast using pre-cut and stripped wire and an electric wrapping tool. When I'm done, I push the whole affair into a sheet of styrofoam insulation, which keeps the pins from coming into contact with anything they shouldn't. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Mon Apr 26 06:45:11 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:45:11 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <036D1E2F-41A2-4F80-887D-B6463C2D880B@neurotica.com> References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> <036D1E2F-41A2-4F80-887D-B6463C2D880B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20100426114511.GZ23471@n0jcf.net> Thanks Dave! I appreciate the effort very much. I'll check the datasheets too but there may be one pin that's different on the 8355 from the 8755. On the SDK-85 board, there is a strapping option to choose which device you are using and it messes with a +5 or GND pull on one pin. Pin 5 seems vaguely familiar but I need to confirm. So, there may be at least one difference between the two devices required before you can fool the UniSite into reading the 8355. Chris On Monday (04/26/2010 at 01:08AM -0400), Dave McGuire wrote: > On Apr 24, 2010, at 8:22 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> I'm guessing that's probably unobtainium so, failing that, wondering if >> there's a .HEX of the ROM image floating around so that I don't have to >> type it all in. If I have the bits, I can burn a 8755 that drops >> into >> the same location. > > Hmm, weird. I tried to read the ROM contents from the 8355 in my > SDK-85, but my Data I/O UniSite, when configured for an 8755A, complains > of a device insertion error. Everything is set up properly, and the > UniSite is fine, I use it all the time. I've checked the databooks and > the 8355 and the 8755 should be completely interchangeable with the > obvious exception of programmability. > > I've not fired up this SDK-85 for a few years, but it worked fine > then. I have to go to sleep soon, and I'll be out for much of the day > tomorrow, but perhaps tomorrow night I'll be able to wire it up to a > power supply and see if it still runs. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > -- Chris Elmquist From robo351 at verizon.net Mon Apr 26 08:21:47 2010 From: robo351 at verizon.net (robo351) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 09:21:47 -0400 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <002901cae543$6ce00270$46a00750$@net> Hi Chris, Freeze spray fixes usually give one additional troubleshooting information but I've never seen a case where the component continues to work until power is removed. I suspect you are dealing with a reset, clock or timing issue as the component powers up. Many Intel parts were very particular about their signals on power-up so you might see if your timings and DC power ramps are within specs. Robo -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist Sent: Saturday, April 24, 2010 8:23 PM To: Classic Computer Tech Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey I obtained an Intel SDK-85 eval board some time ago and decided to try to bring it back to life today. It had been part of a Philips logic analyzer demo system apparently. They had cut off the prototyping area on the left side and put their own board there instead... which had a 2716 EPROM on it and some hardware to generate glitches as part of the logic analyzer demo I guess. In any case, I undid all of their mods (except of course, putting the sawed off prototype section back on!) and the unit sort of works. What I have discovered is that the 8355 ROM+IO chip is flakey. It won't work unless I freeze it with component cooler. Once I have done that, then it starts working and stays working for hours as long as power is not removed. If it gets powered down, then I have to freeze it again before the device will respond with valid fetches. I don't suppose anyone has a spare 8355 with SDK-85 monitor burned in it do they? I'm guessing that's probably unobtainium so, failing that, wondering if there's a .HEX of the ROM image floating around so that I don't have to type it all in. If I have the bits, I can burn a 8755 that drops into the same location. Any guesses as to what the failure mode might be of the 8355? It is sort of curious that once it gets started from frozen, it keeps working nicely. I already did my time at ETA, cooling chips in liquid nitrogen so that's kind of behind me now ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Mon Apr 26 08:25:47 2010 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 06:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PPC 601 and mftb/mftbu Message-ID: <587019.98117.qm@web114208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Cameron, > Anyone know of an equivalent for 601 that will still > work on 603+? Or am I as dead in the water as I suspect? The rdtsc function has its origin in the rdtsc instruction on an x86 CPU, it returns a 64-bit value, the number of cycles since power on. I can see from the rdtsc function for PowerPC that it is implemented using a routine, so it's exact performance isn't critical I would presume. The nearest instruction on a 601 is mfspr rd,6 which loads the decrementer. This is a user-level instruction on the 601 (not on the 603 or later). So, -DEC roughly the tb. According to the Ppc601 user manual, dec uses the 7.8125MHz RTC clock as its time base (pg H-3), but on page B-8 it says the power architecure decrements dec every nanosecond. So, we could do something like: static __inline__ unsigned long long rdtsc(void) { asm { mfspr regUpper,6 }; return (long long)-regUpper<<32; } In this case, the effective frequency of the clock is 7.8125MHz*2^32. For the PowerPc601. On initialisation I would probably read the processor version register (PVR) to determine the processor; and if it was a 601 I'd substitute the PowerPC 601 code and then flush the code and data caches. -cheers from julz @P From chrise at pobox.com Mon Apr 26 15:52:36 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:52:36 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100426205236.GF23471@n0jcf.net> On Monday (04/26/2010 at 06:31PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I don't suppose anyone has a spare 8355 with SDK-85 monitor burned in > > it do they? > > Alas not. But if the device works if you cool it, can't you read it out > when it's been cooled? Surely the SDK-85 has some kind of I/O port > you could dump it to. And then burn the bits into an 8755 as you suggested. Yes indeed. That will be plan B if Dave is unable to read his 8355 in his PROM programmer. The tty interface on this SDK-85 was built for 20mA current loop so I'll have to either rework that to RS232 or invent a new method to offload. But not a big deal really. I'm thinking now that it might be nice to have the monitor source typed in so maybe I will take on that challenge. I've yet to encounter a method of scanning and OCRing dot-matrix printouts that works so I think that just leaves typing it in. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 26 17:37:28 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:37:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PPC 601 and mftb/mftbu In-Reply-To: <587019.98117.qm@web114208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from Julian Skidmore at "Apr 26, 10 06:25:47 am" Message-ID: <201004262237.o3QMbSaN018844@floodgap.com> > The nearest instruction on a 601 is mfspr rd,6 which loads the > decrementer. This is a user-level instruction on the 601 (not on the 603 > or later). So, -DEC roughly the tb. I'd sort of independently determined this, although I settled on mfrtcu which is spr4-5, IIRC. I'm not sure if it's high enough resolution for this task, but as you point out, rdtsc() in the PPC nanojit is a function, so it may not be a significant problem. mfrtcu/mfrtcl *should* work on the 603 and up, right? However, the bigger problem is that the code generator is essentially wedded to gcc inline assembly syntax, so I'd need to redo the whole thing anyway to work for CodeWarrior and I don't fully understand it yet to do that. Still, I'd like to resolve this for the future when I get enough gumption to try. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All the sensitive [men] get eaten. -- "Ice Age" ---------------------------- From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 18:01:22 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:01:22 -0700 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100426205236.GF23471@n0jcf.net> References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> <20100426205236.GF23471@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > Yes indeed. ?That will be plan B if Dave is unable to read his 8355 in > his PROM programmer. > > I'm thinking now that it might be nice to have the monitor source typed in > so maybe I will take on that challenge. ?I've yet to encounter a method > of scanning and OCRing dot-matrix printouts that works so I think that > just leaves typing it in. > I was able to dump the 8355 and reprogram it into an 8755 for an SDK-85 I have. I should be able to send you a dump for that later today if someone else doesn't beat me to it. For the HP 5036A monitor what I did there to create an accurate monitor listing without completely starting from scratch was to feed the monitor dump into a special purpose disassembler I wrote and then typed in all of the comments from the printed listing. That took a while to finish and verify for correctness. This was the result: http://www.decodesystems.com/5036ASM.TXT Might not be too bad to repeat that process with the SDK-85 monitor. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 18:05:46 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:05:46 -0400 Subject: Wang 2200 Message-ID: Is there any interest in a Wang 2200 located (I think) in New Jersey? I know very little...I am just the messenger. -- Will From vrs at msn.com Mon Apr 26 22:03:30 2010 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:03:30 -0700 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? References: <7.0.1.0.2.20100424105502.024c06b8@verizon.net> from"Douglas Taylor" at Apr 24, 10 11:04:59 am, <4BD57302.12567.55A308@cclist.sydex.com> <4BD60685.7000003@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: From: "Philip Pemberton" Monday, April 26, 2010 2:32 PM > One of these days I need to find some software that can take an CAD > netlist and produce a wire-wrap wiring list using the "top and bottom" > technique (that is, wires are "on top" at one end and "on the bottom" at > the other, thus making any changes possible with the removal of at most > one wire). I know this has been done in the past, though I don't think > any of the EDA software that did it has survived... :( I have a Perl script that can do this, from the Eagle exported netlist and partlist (to get the locations and package styles of the various parts). For each package style (DIL14, 0207/10, etc.), you must write a simple Perl function to specify the X and Y coordinates of each pin. What you get out is a list of level 1 wraps and their wire lengths, followed by a list of level 2 wraps and their wire lengths. It treats GND, VCC, etc. as signals, but generally you can just ignore those and route the power busses by hand. By way of example, here's a single signal excerpted from a run on the TC08 drawings (stuff wired to a pull-up resistor at A09.U1): Level Signal From To Length ----- ------ ---- -- ------ L1 +3V at A09U1 B13.U2 B13.R1 3in. L1 +3V at A09U1 A07.T2 A07.S2 1.5in. L1 +3V at A09U1 A08.K2 A08.F2 1.5in. L1 +3V at A09U1 A09.U1 A07.S1 2.5in. ... L2 +3V at A09U1 B13.R1 A07.T2 4.5in. L2 +3V at A09U1 A07.S2 A08.K2 2in. L2 +3V at A09U1 A08.F2 A09.U1 1.5in. L2 +3V at A09U1 A07.S1 A08.D1 3in. ... Where B13.U2 means pin U2 of component B13, etc. It shouldn't be too hard to fiddle the distance metrics for the type of wire routes you plan to use. Vince From brain at jbrain.com Mon Apr 26 22:18:28 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:18:28 -0500 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD65784.8060301@jbrain.com> On 4/26/2010 12:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote >> I can think of one very good reason : If you're the sort of mortal whose >> designed don't always work first time, or if you prefer to desgin a bit, >> get that working, add on the next bit, and so on, then it's a lot easier >> to do tha, make changes, modify things on prototyping board than on a PCB. >> I'm not sure that's a valid reason. It's pretty easy to make mods on a PCB as well, unless the initial design is really FUBAR. >> And I wondeer... For a one-off project how does the time taken to lay out >> the PCB check it, etc compare to thr time taken to wire it up by hand on >> a prototyping board. >> If (and a big IF) someone is very good at reading pin numbers backwards, has good prototyping skills, and doesn;t get in a hurry, I'd say the prototype direction wins. But, I can see that swinging in favor of PCBs very easily: * It's easy to get messed up while looking at the back of a board as to pin numbers. Sure, they make guides for that, but then that's just another product you need to have in your kit. * You still have to design it in something (napkin, graph paper, etc.) For ultra simple (<10 major components) designs, I can see the napkin as OK, but beyond that, hand drawn schematics (that don't take as much time as a PCB app) get hard to read and prone to error. * Moving from idea to prototype can be addictive to the point that corners are cut, creation is done in haste, and then mistakes are made Probably the most important reason * wirewrapping and such don't work nearly as well with SMT. You either need to buy SMT->through hole adapter boards (another item to stock in the kit), or use kynar, glue, and a patient hand to solder a "dead bug style" SMT IC to your prototype The last item is what drove me to PCB for all my projects. Many newer parts only come in SMT variants. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 27 00:38:25 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:38:25 -0700 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <4BD65784.8060301@jbrain.com> References: , <4BD65784.8060301@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4BD615E1.14753.2D1D7CF@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Apr 2010 at 22:18, Jim Brain wrote: > Probably the most important reason > > * wirewrapping and such don't work nearly as well with SMT. You > either need to buy SMT->through hole adapter boards (another > item to stock in the kit), or use kynar, glue, and a patient > hand to solder a "dead bug style" SMT IC to your prototype Yeah, that's a big issue for me too. I've been able to just get by with adapters, but some of the QFP with more than 100 pins get ridiculous. And even with a custom PCB, I have no idea what I'd do about BGAs. --Chuck From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Apr 27 05:38:01 2010 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:38:01 +0100 Subject: Amstrad (Was: Transfer files to/from N* CPM image? In-Reply-To: <20100423110522.T58960@shell.lmi.net> References: <20100423110522.T58960@shell.lmi.net> <20100423110522.T58960@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20100427103801.GA6107@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 11:17:10AM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 22 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > The disk drive was standard -- a standard 3" unit (and the Amstrad PCW -- > > and Amstrad Z80 machines in general -- were not the only machines to use > > that size disk). They were, apparently, quite popular in some proprietary navigation thingy, because they were far more robust than 3.5/5.25 inch disks. After new disks disappeared from computery shops, you could still get them for a few years in chandlers' along the east coast of England. > > The disk cotnroler was, IIRC, a standard 765=, the disk > > format was a normal-ish MFM one. I suyspect it would be very easy to link > > an Amstrad 3" drive (or any other 3" drive -- some of the Hitachi ones > > had a 34 pin edge connector with the stnadard pinout) to another machine > > and write Amstrad disks on it. Yes. I used to connect a 3" drive to a PC when I needed to transfer files to/from my CPC 6128. IIRC I told the PC BIOS that it was a 5.25" drive with a stupidly low capacity and it Just Worked. 22DISK would happily read and write files. > > Some to think of it, didn't the CPC6128 pre-date the PCW? It had an > > external drive connector which IIRC was a standard 34 pin one. Was there > > ever an external 3" srive unit for that machine? If so it would be very > > easy to link to another machine. Yes, there was. You could also use 3.5 and 5.25 inch external floppies. > Amdek sold an external drive unit with two 3" drives. Their advertising > targeted the RS Color Computer. Trivial to connect to most machines with > a "standard" floppy interface. > > Was "Amdek" affiliated with Amstrad in any way? Not AFAIK. -- David Cantrell | semi-evolved ape-thing Irregular English: you have anecdotes; they have data; I have proof From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 08:58:05 2010 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:58:05 -0700 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> <20100426205236.GF23471@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > I was able to dump the 8355 and reprogram it into an 8755 for an > SDK-85 I have. ?I should be able to send you a dump for that later > today if someone else doesn't beat me to it. > I sent Chris a binary dump of the 8355 from my SDK-85. I haven't uploaded it anywhere yet. If anyone else needs a copy I could send it to them, or upload it somewhere. -Glen From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 09:10:19 2010 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 10:10:19 -0400 Subject: Wang 2200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Several people have expressed interest in the Wang - I have forwarded your names to the owner. Maybe one of you can get this system. Thanks all for playing. -- Will From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 27 09:58:28 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <563741.61491.qm@web114601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAtlAZPjs4s& His site: http://galacticstudios.org/component/content/article/2-electronics/14-minialtairpc From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 10:09:24 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:09:24 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: <563741.61491.qm@web114601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <563741.61491.qm@web114601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: As he didn't mutilate an actual Altair, I will say that is pretty cool On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 10:58 AM, William Blair wrote: > The video: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAtlAZPjs4s& > > His site: > > > http://galacticstudios.org/component/content/article/2-electronics/14-minialtairpc > > > > -- Joseph Giliberti Jackson, New Jersey From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 27 10:14:11 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple //e/t Message-ID: <17100.41674.qm@web114608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Apple IIe hacked into real-time twitter display. Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j622EyPX6lM Web page: http://www.atomsandelectrons.com/blog/post/Apple-t.aspx#continue From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 27 10:43:17 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 08:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" Message-ID: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> 10MB for only US$3398 (plus shipping?): http://gizmodo.com/5524908/the-hard-disk-youve-been-waiting-for From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 27 10:54:10 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:54:10 -0400 Subject: Apple //e/t In-Reply-To: <17100.41674.qm@web114608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <17100.41674.qm@web114608.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BD708A2.4000905@comcast.net> I'm afraid that is a pseudo-Twitter App only. Not like an actual Vintage Twitter App that's running on the C64 using Breadbox64 which does not require a PC host as a Twitter gateway. I'm mainly a hardware hacker myself but I read this actually makes use a of a embedded IP stack running using only a 6502 at that slow speed on the C64. I just picked up a C64 ethernet card from Jim Brain & Co to try this myself. http://www.vandenbrande.com/wp/2009/06/breadbox64-a-twitter-client-for-the-c64/ That guy could actually port the Breadbox64 source code to the IIe since it's based on CC65 --and hack the Ethernet card into a slot to make a true vintage embedded internet appliance--it certainly has enough memory for this task. Unlike the VIC-20 which I'm also attempting, once I add a bigger memory expansion. And that other VIC-20 Twitter App that was recently featured online also falls into the pseudo crowd. =Dan William Blair wrote: > Apple IIe hacked into real-time twitter display. Video: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j622EyPX6lM > > Web page: > > http://www.atomsandelectrons.com/blog/post/Apple-t.aspx#continue > > From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 27 11:20:14 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:20:14 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: References: <563741.61491.qm@web114601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BD70EBE.3040709@comcast.net> >> On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 10:58 AM, William Blair wrote: >> >> The video: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAtlAZPjs4s& >> His site: >> http://galacticstudios.org/component/content/article/2-electronics/14-minialtairpc >> Joe Giliberti wrote: > As he didn't mutilate an actual Altair, I will say that is pretty cool > I agree. I like the fact that he has this interfaced to Rich Cini's Altair32 emulator so you can operate it directly via the front panel switches instead of a mouse. =Dan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 11:39:41 2010 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:39:41 -0500 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4BD7134D.3090509@gmail.com> William Blair wrote: > 10MB for only US$3398 (plus shipping?): > > http://gizmodo.com/5524908/the-hard-disk-youve-been-waiting-for Cost issues aside, I wonder what the average file size is then vs. now? A comparison of "number of average-sized files that can fit on a disk" might be interesting. For this desktop my average size is 236KB, so it's "about" a million files on the machine's 250GB disk. I wonder if that number's stayed reasonably constant across the decades? cheers Jules From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 27 11:41:18 2010 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 09:41:18 -0700 Subject: Wang 2200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Will: Do u know the model number? If it is a Wang 2200 LVP, it is one of the first in its price class to come with a fixed hard drive; initially it used a Shugart SA1000 and then it switched to a Quantum Q2000. Tom > Message: 21 > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 19:05:46 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Wang 2200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Is there any interest in a Wang 2200 located (I think) in New Jersey? > I know very little...I am just the messenger. > > -- > Will From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Apr 27 12:33:45 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 13:33:45 -0400 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > 10MB for only US$3398 (plus shipping?): > http://gizmodo.com/5524908/the-hard-disk-youve-been-waiting-for Who is the actual maker of the XCOMP physical drive in the picture? I'm not familiar with the unit. Corvus sold the IMI (International Memories Incorporated) drive in ?1980? and there was the Seagate ST-506 in 1980 and the Shugart SA1000 in I think 1979. So I'm thinking the XCOMP ad must be the same era. Tim. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Apr 27 13:15:47 2010 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <292205.68079.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> A bargain at twice the price! ________________________________ From: William Blair To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Tue, April 27, 2010 10:43:17 AM Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" 10MB for only US$3398 (plus shipping?): http://gizmodo.com/5524908/the-hard-disk-youve-been-waiting-for From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 27 13:28:30 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:28:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <637495.93738.qm@web114613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> > > As he didn't mutilate an actual Altair, I will say > > that is pretty cool > > I agree. > I like the fact that he has this interfaced to Rich Cini's > Altair32 emulator so you can operate it directly via the front panel > switches instead of a mouse. I was hoping he could create and sell a case/interface kit without the modern motherboard, but since the case was part of an old function generator(?) he purchased on eBay, a similar case would have to be mass produced which I suspect would be prohibitively expensive in small quantities even if produced in China. If a case kit like this was in fact made available at something approaching a reasonable price, I'd buy one in a _heartbeat_. Typical "case mods" hold no attraction for me whatsoever. One like this definitely would. From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Apr 27 13:34:35 2010 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:34:35 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: <637495.93738.qm@web114613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <637495.93738.qm@web114613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2A006896-FFC8-43B9-B413-1B573E071161@xlisper.com> On Apr 27, 2010, at 2:28 PM, William Blair wrote: >>> As he didn't mutilate an actual Altair, I will say >>> that is pretty cool >> >> I agree. >> I like the fact that he has this interfaced to Rich Cini's >> Altair32 emulator so you can operate it directly via the front panel >> switches instead of a mouse. > > I was hoping he could create and sell a case/interface kit without the modern motherboard, but since the case was part of an old function generator(?) he purchased on eBay, a similar case would have to be mass produced which I suspect would be prohibitively expensive in small quantities even if produced in China. If a case kit like this was in fact made available at something approaching a reasonable price, I'd buy one in a _heartbeat_. Typical "case mods" hold no attraction for me whatsoever. One like this definitely would. Have you seen Vince Briel's new Altair 8800 kit? It uses an AVR chip to emulate the 8080 CPU but has a "lights and switches" front panel that looks a lot like the original Altair 8800. http://www.brielcomputers.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Apr 27 13:50:32 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 11:50:32 -0700 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD731F8.6010708@bitsavers.org> On 4/27/10 10:33 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> 10MB for only US$3398 (plus shipping?): >> http://gizmodo.com/5524908/the-hard-disk-youve-been-waiting-for > > Who is the actual maker of the XCOMP physical drive in the picture? I'm not familiar with the unit. > > Corvus sold the IMI (International Memories Incorporated) drive in ?1980? and there was the Seagate ST-506 in 1980 and the Shugart SA1000 in I think 1979. So I'm thinking the XCOMP ad must be the same era. > > Tim. > > The earliest copy of the ad appears in the Jul 81 issue of Byte. Manufacturers of 10meg drives in 1981 included Miniscribe, RMS, Rodime, Tandon, and TI but most used similar bezels to the Seagate drives. The drive is interesting because it integrated the stepper inside with the actuator. From steve at cosam.org Tue Apr 27 13:53:53 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:53:53 +0200 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: <4BD7134D.3090509@gmail.com> References: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BD7134D.3090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson wrote: > Cost issues aside, I wonder what the average file size is then vs. now? A > comparison of "number of average-sized files that can fit on a disk" might > be interesting. > > For this desktop my average size is 236KB, so it's "about" a million files > on the machine's 250GB disk. I wonder if that number's stayed reasonably > constant across the decades? It would be interesting, but I'd guess the average file size at the time that disk came out was significantly more then ten bytes! Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 27 13:55:31 2010 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:55:31 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: <2A006896-FFC8-43B9-B413-1B573E071161@xlisper.com> References: <637495.93738.qm@web114613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2A006896-FFC8-43B9-B413-1B573E071161@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4BD73323.9050603@comcast.net> David Betz wrote: > Have you seen Vince Briel's new Altair 8800 kit? It uses an AVR chip to emulate the 8080 CPU but has a "lights and switches" front panel that looks a lot like the original Altair 8800. > > http://www.brielcomputers.com/ yes, I noticed there was a change from using slide switches in the earlier rev to using actual toggle switches, due to some good feedback I'm sure, it's still has that nostalgic feel :) =Dan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 27 13:37:25 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:37:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100426205236.GF23471@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Apr 26, 10 03:52:36 pm Message-ID: > > On Monday (04/26/2010 at 06:31PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I don't suppose anyone has a spare 8355 with SDK-85 monitor burned in > > > it do they? > > > > Alas not. But if the device works if you cool it, can't you read it out > > when it's been cooled? Surely the SDK-85 has some kind of I/O port > > you could dump it to. And then burn the bits into an 8755 as you suggested. > > Yes indeed. That will be plan B if Dave is unable to read his 8355 in > his PROM programmer. > > The tty interface on this SDK-85 was built for 20mA current loop so I'll > have to either rework that to RS232 or invent a new method to offload. > But not a big deal really. I would be _very_ supprised if that serial interface doesn't sue some TTL-level serial chip (or bit-banged through a TTL level port) followed by a current loop interface. In which case, since you need output only, grab the TTL leve signal at the input to the coverter and feed it into something like a MAX232 (or a 1488 if you have +/-12V suppleis around). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 27 13:42:01 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:42:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <4BD60685.7000003@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 26, 10 10:32:53 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I still use wire-wrap. The finished product is easily modifiable and > > will turn in reliable performance for as long as I care to use it. > > I've got the tools to do wire-wrap, but none of the boards, sockets or > hardware (it seems WW IC sockets have become rather difficult to > source). The long pins also tend to get in the way IMO... Farnell still seem to sell wire-wrap sockets, but they are not cheap (I think the 16 pin one is something like \pounds 1.20 + VAT)! > > To be honest, I prefer the RoadRunner point-to-point wiring pens. So do I. The Roadrunner pen is much nicer than the similar Verowire pen BTW, in that it has a metal tip. The Verowire pen tends to melt wehn you solder the connection... I must admit I do not use it as suggested. I solder the IC sockets down to a piex of ptorotyping board (square pad board if I can get it, otherwise 'tripad board' or normal stripboard with suitable track cuts. I then tin the wire on the end of the pen and solder it to the first pin. Run the wire across the board to the next pin I want to connect, and solder it there. Then carry on until I've completed that run. Cut off the wire and do the next trun the same way. > They're a bit like wire-wrap, but you use enamelled copper wire which is > soldered to the component (or socket) pins like a PCB "ratsnest". Though > admittedly it is a good idea to use wiring guides (aka "wiring > castellations" -- they look a bit like the battlements on top of castle I've never used the guides... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 27 13:43:35 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:43:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <4BD5A7ED.18516.124593F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 26, 10 02:49:17 pm Message-ID: [Wire-wraped prototypes] > When I'm done, I push the whole affair into a sheet of styrofoam > insulation, which keeps the pins from coming into contact with > anything they shouldn't. ... and generate enough static to zap every MOS device in the system. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 27 13:52:24 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 19:52:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <4BD65784.8060301@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Apr 26, 10 10:18:28 pm Message-ID: > > On 4/26/2010 12:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote > >> I can think of one very good reason : If you're the sort of mortal whose > >> designed don't always work first time, or if you prefer to desgin a bit, > >> get that working, add on the next bit, and so on, then it's a lot easier > >> to do tha, make changes, modify things on prototyping board than on a PCB. > >> > I'm not sure that's a valid reason. It's pretty easy to make mods on a > PCB as well, unless the initial design is really FUBAR. But it's certainly a lot hardwre to make an 'incremental design' on a PCB. Which viertually all my projects are. > >> And I wondeer... For a one-off project how does the time taken to lay out > >> the PCB check it, etc compare to thr time taken to wire it up by hand on > >> a prototyping board. > >> > If (and a big IF) someone is very good at reading pin numbers backwards, I have never hand any problems with this. But then I can easily read upside down and mirror-reflected text without really thinking about it. IC pins (at lest DIP and SOIC pacakages) are numbered anticlockwise (counterclockwise) starting from the 'notch'. There's a reason for this I beleive, it goes back to valves (vacuum tubes).s Vavle pins are also numbered anticlockwise from the locatro because most valveholders were wired on the underside. Looked at from that side, the numbers go clockwise, which seems more natural. So perhaps it's acutally easier to wire ICs from the underside :-) > has good prototyping skills, and doesn;t get in a hurry, I'd say the > prototype direction wins. But, I can see that swinging in favor of PCBs > very easily: > > * It's easy to get messed up while looking at the back of a board as > to pin numbers. Sure, they make guides for that, but then that's > just another product you need to have in your kit. As I said, this has never bothered me. > * You still have to design it in something (napkin, graph paper, Do you/ I jeust grab a suitable bit of prototpying board (cut to fit whatever case it's going to end up in if it's going in a case), roughtly position the IC sockets (leaving room for others if possible) and start soldering. I design as I go, based o nthe results of testing the bits I've buiit and got working. > etc.) For ultra simple (<10 major components) designs, I can see > the napkin as OK, but beyond that, hand drawn schematics (that > don't take as much time as a PCB app) get hard to read and prone > to error. Again this has never been a problem for me. > * Moving from idea to prototype can be addictive to the point that > corners are cut, creation is done in haste, and then mistakes are made > > Probably the most important reason > > * wirewrapping and such don't work nearly as well with SMT. You > either need to buy SMT->through hole adapter boards (another item > to stock in the kit), or use kynar, glue, and a patient hand to Oh come on. You hve to buy the ICs, the other cvmponets, sockets, etc no matter what method you use. Buying the SMD adapters is not a problem. And having all major devices socketed is very useful on a prototype (you can easilty re-use the chips, you can remove them and force signals high or low for testing and so on). > solder a "dead bug style" SMT IC to your prototype > > > The last item is what drove me to PCB for all my projects. Many newer > parts only come in SMT variants. -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 27 14:14:25 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:14:25 -0400 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD73791.2030400@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> On Monday (04/26/2010 at 06:31PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> I don't suppose anyone has a spare 8355 with SDK-85 monitor burned in >>>> it do they? >>>> >>> Alas not. But if the device works if you cool it, can't you read it out >>> when it's been cooled? Surely the SDK-85 has some kind of I/O port >>> you could dump it to. And then burn the bits into an 8755 as you suggested. >>> >> Yes indeed. That will be plan B if Dave is unable to read his 8355 in >> his PROM programmer. >> >> The tty interface on this SDK-85 was built for 20mA current loop so I'll >> have to either rework that to RS232 or invent a new method to offload. >> But not a big deal really. >> > > I would be _very_ supprised if that serial interface doesn't sue some > TTL-level serial chip (or bit-banged through a TTL level port) followed > by a current loop interface. > > It does not. The DSK85 does bit bang through the SID and SOD pins on the 8085 CPU. > In which case, since you need output only, grab the TTL leve signal at > the input to the coverter and feed it into something like a MAX232 (or a > 1488 if you have +/-12V suppleis around). > > No need. The SDK can be via jumpers wired with run RS232 levels for terminal. A minus 5 to 12 Volt supply is required but we are talking a few milliamps. The intel i8085 manuals had the schematic for the SDK85. Allison > -tony > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 27 14:18:29 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:18:29 -0700 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: References: <4BD5A7ED.18516.124593F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 26, 10 02:49:17 pm, Message-ID: <4BD6D615.22779.8458AD@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2010 at 19:43, Tony Duell wrote: > ... and generate enough static to zap every MOS device in the system. Never had it happen. Maybe it has something to do with using the insulating extruded styrofoam, I don't know. It could also be that the relative humidity here is never very low. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 27 14:23:11 2010 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:23:11 +0100 Subject: Unsticking an RD53 Message-ID: <002101cae63f$1d864f70$5892ee50$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> A while ago I posted about an RD53 I have which had the problem with the sticking heads. I have now got to the point where the heads no longer stick on the bumper, but the disk still does not work correctly. I opened it up and watched what it did with the cover off. Once it gains speed it moves the heads out all the way and then they just stay there with the disk spinning. There is a whine coming from the drive, not sure of the source of this though. Is this the right head behaviour? Below is what I got when it was installed in a MicroVAX 2000: >>> test 50 KA410-A V1.2 ID 08-00-2B-07-98-90 ? CLK 0000.0005 NVR 0000.0001 ? DZ 0000.4001 00004001 00000001 00000001 00000001 00000000 00000000 MEM 0006.0001 00600000 MM 0000.0001 FP 0000.0001 IT 0000.0001 ? HDC 7730.7731 00022000 00000000 00000000 ? TPC 0000.4001 FFFFFF03 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 FFFFFF05 SYS 0000.0001 ?? NI 0000.7004 V1.3 >>> I tried using the verifier thus: >>> test 71 KA410-A RDver VSmsv_QUE_unitno (0-1) ? 0 VSmsv_STS_Siz . RD53 VSmsv_QUE_RUsure (DUA0 1/0) ? 1 VSmsv_STS_RDing . But the verifier just stuck on there and did not show any progress for a good 20 minutes or so, I believe an RD53 should verify in about 8 minutes. Any suggestions? Thanks Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 27 14:43:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 20:43:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <4BD73791.2030400@verizon.net> from "allison" at Apr 27, 10 03:14:25 pm Message-ID: > >> The tty interface on this SDK-85 was built for 20mA current loop so I'll > >> have to either rework that to RS232 or invent a new method to offload. > >> But not a big deal really. > >> > > > > I would be _very_ supprised if that serial interface doesn't sue some > > TTL-level serial chip (or bit-banged through a TTL level port) followed > > by a current loop interface. > > > > > It does not. The DSK85 does bit bang through the SID and SOD pins > on the 8085 CPU. I would argue that is 'bit banged throug ha TTL level port'. The fact that that port happens to be on the processor chip doesn't alter the fact that tehre's a TTL level serial signal you can use. > > > In which case, since you need output only, grab the TTL leve signal at > > the input to the coverter and feed it into something like a MAX232 (or a > > 1488 if you have +/-12V suppleis around). > > > > > No need. The SDK can be via jumpers wired with run RS232 levels > for terminal. A minus 5 to 12 Volt supply is required but we are > talking a few milliamps. If all else fails I suspect a common 'PP3' (as we used to call them) 9V battery would do the trick. > > The intel i8085 manuals had the schematic for the SDK85. So does the book I've just pulled off my bookshelf ('Microcomputer Theory and Applications wit hteh Intel SDK-85'). I can't find any links to set RS232 levels on the serial port. The current loop converter is a simple trasistor stage (PNP transsitor), emiter to +5V, collector to the current loop through a resistor. Now, IIRC, the current loop passes current in the idle state (whcih implies that transistor is turned on in the idle state), but the RS232 signal is -ve in the idel state. So you need an inverter. I wonder (and I've not got an SDK85 to try it with). If you connected a suitalbe pull-down resistor (say 1k) between the current loop +ve output (pin 13 of J7 on my schematic) and ground, and then also connected pin 13 of J7 to the input of an RS232 driver, would that work? I think so. Incidnetlaly, the book also has the monitor source lisitng in it. I don't feel like typing it in, though :-) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 27 14:49:04 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:49:04 -0700 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: References: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4BD7134D.3090509@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4BD6DD40.11718.A0571E@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2010 at 20:53, Steve Maddison wrote: > It would be interesting, but I'd guess the average file size at the > time that disk came out was significantly more then ten bytes! Consider the time and the target audience (S100 users). Most probably running some flavor of CP/M. So you're dealing with a "flat" file system with a fixed number of directory slots (512 was common for hard disks; a large file was broken into "extents", with each extent occupying its own slot). So there was a finite limit to the number of files that could be placed on such a device. I seem to recall also that the official CP/M volume size lmitation was somewhere around 8 MB. Not as restrictive as, say, the Apple II scheme of making a (IMI?) hard disk look like 50 floppies, but there are limits. I recall getting in an SA4000-series 14" drive with 40MB on it and having to modify the BIOS to partition it into several CP/M drives. At about the same time we were deploying 7 and 14 MB Rodime 5.25" drives, I remember that we received a sample drive from Evotek that was something like 50MB (had a plexiglas HDA cover, so that was kind of cool to watch). I don't think I ever saw that drive sold. I stilll have the documentation somewhere. --Chuck From steve at cosam.org Tue Apr 27 15:15:48 2010 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:15:48 +0200 Subject: Unsticking an RD53 In-Reply-To: <-2143519730636855231@unknownmsgid> References: <-2143519730636855231@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Rob Jarratt wrote: > A while ago I posted about an RD53 I have which had the problem with the > sticking heads. I have now got to the point where the heads no longer stick > on the bumper, but the disk still does not work correctly. I opened it up > and watched what it did with the cover off. Once it gains speed it moves the > heads out all the way and then they just stay there with the disk spinning. FWIW, I have one that does exactly the same. It is however also a non-runner, so I can't tell you whether that's correct behaviour or not. It certainly /sounds/ the same as my other, working example. > There is a whine coming from the drive, not sure of the source of this > though. Mine had that too. Not sure where it came from, but it stopped when I retightened one of the corner HDA mountings (the ones with the rubber bushes underneath). Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Apr 27 15:18:20 2010 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:18:20 +0200 Subject: HP rx5670 Message-ID: <4BD7468C.3000003@update.uu.se> Hi I might have a lead on a HP rx5670, but HP indicate that it might not support VMS, and I'm not that eager to run linux, hpux nor windows. Has anyone tried to run VMS on it? /Pontus. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 26 16:17:22 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:17:22 +0100 Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop References: Message-ID: <001b01cae647$a9257030$edfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 6:23 PM Subject: Re: Looking for an Apple /// keytop > > > > I'm looking for the 6 keytop from the numeric keypad for an Apple ///. > > I've already replaced the broken-off keyswitch, but, of course the > > keytop is long gone. > > On a related subject, has anyone managed to make their own keycaps either > by using ah ome-made injection moulding machine (I've seen a couple of > books on this, and the average keycap is small enough to be made that > way) or using one of htose rapid prototyping machines ('3D printers')? > > -tony Or how about a way to replace key labels? The bottom right leg of the 'K' on my laptop is half gone. Other letters are also being worn away in places. Sure I could use plain old white labels and write (or print) letters on them, but it would look very tacky :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 16:15:23 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:15:23 +0100 Subject: HP rx5670 In-Reply-To: <4BD7468C.3000003@update.uu.se> References: <4BD7468C.3000003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On 27 April 2010 21:18, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > I might have a lead on a HP rx5670, but HP indicate that it might not > support VMS, and I'm not that eager to run linux, hpux nor windows. > > Has anyone tried to run VMS on it? > > According to Product Bulletin it's the only retired one of the time (ret. end 2007) that *doesn't* run VMS, the rest do, even the baby 2600. Do you have a VMS 8.3 DVD you can get to to attempt booting it? -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 27 16:20:28 2010 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 14:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP rx5670 In-Reply-To: <4BD7468C.3000003@update.uu.se> References: <4BD7468C.3000003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: I'd recommend asking on comp.os.vms, I don't know how many of us here that run VMS have access to Itanium-based systems. I've yet to find one in my price range. Zane On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Pontus wrote: > Hi > > I might have a lead on a HP rx5670, but HP indicate that it might not > support VMS, and I'm not that eager to run linux, hpux nor windows. > > Has anyone tried to run VMS on it? > > /Pontus. > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Apr 27 16:39:32 2010 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:39:32 +0100 Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: <001b01cae647$a9257030$edfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: <001b01cae647$a9257030$edfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BD75994.6060803@dunnington.plus.com> On 26/04/2010 22:17, Andrew Burton wrote: > Or how about a way to replace key labels? The bottom right leg of the 'K' on > my laptop is half gone. Other letters are also being worn away in places. > Sure I could use plain old white labels and write (or print) letters on > them, but it would look very tacky :( Some engravers will engrave plastic keytops. Makes a change from sports trophies. Proper keycaps of course are two-shot moulded :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 27 17:18:19 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:18:19 -0400 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD762AB.8060400@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> The tty interface on this SDK-85 was built for 20mA current loop so I'll >>>> have to either rework that to RS232 or invent a new method to offload. >>>> But not a big deal really. >>>> >>>> >>> I would be _very_ supprised if that serial interface doesn't sue some >>> TTL-level serial chip (or bit-banged through a TTL level port) followed >>> by a current loop interface. >>> >>> >>> >> It does not. The DSK85 does bit bang through the SID and SOD pins >> on the 8085 CPU. >> > > I would argue that is 'bit banged throug ha TTL level port'. The fact > that that port happens to be on the processor chip doesn't alter the fact > that tehre's a TTL level serial signal you can use. > > Yes, but the SDK85 design you could jumper the IO for RS232, 20ma or TTL. >>> In which case, since you need output only, grab the TTL leve signal at >>> the input to the coverter and feed it into something like a MAX232 (or a >>> 1488 if you have +/-12V suppleis around). >>> >>> >>> >> No need. The SDK can be via jumpers wired with run RS232 levels >> for terminal. A minus 5 to 12 Volt supply is required but we are >> talking a few milliamps. >> > > If all else fails I suspect a common 'PP3' (as we used to call them) 9V > battery would do the trick. > It would or a common 9V wall wart. >> The intel i8085 manuals had the schematic for the SDK85. >> > > So does the book I've just pulled off my bookshelf ('Microcomputer > Theory and Applications wit hteh Intel SDK-85'). I can't find any links > to set RS232 levels on the serial port. The current loop converter is a > simple trasistor stage (PNP transsitor), emiter to +5V, collector to the > current loop through a resistor. Now, IIRC, the current loop passes > current in the idle state (whcih implies that transistor is turned on in > the idle state), but the RS232 signal is -ve in the idel state. So you > need an inverter. > > I have that too. The inverter can be jumpered out. Used a lot of SDK85s over the years with terminals and it was never an issue. Wish I'd kept one but I do have a home brew(wire wrapped) copy of one. > I wonder (and I've not got an SDK85 to try it with). If you connected a > suitalbe pull-down resistor (say 1k) between the current loop +ve output > (pin 13 of J7 on my schematic) and ground, and then also connected pin 13 > of J7 to the input of an RS232 driver, would that work? I think so. > > Again, there are jumper options for that. Allison > Incidnetlaly, the book also has the monitor source lisitng in it. I don't > feel like typing it in, though :-) > > -tony > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Apr 27 17:20:47 2010 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:20:47 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: <4BD73323.9050603@comcast.net> References: <637495.93738.qm@web114613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <2A006896-FFC8-43B9-B413-1B573E071161@xlisper.com> <4BD73323.9050603@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4BD7633F.4090006@verizon.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > > David Betz wrote: >> Have you seen Vince Briel's new Altair 8800 kit? It uses an AVR chip >> to emulate the 8080 CPU but has a "lights and switches" front panel >> that looks a lot like the original Altair 8800. >> >> http://www.brielcomputers.com/ > > > yes, I noticed there was a change from using slide switches in the > earlier rev to using actual toggle switches, due to some good feedback > I'm sure, it's still has that nostalgic feel :) > =Dan > > Huh? The Altair 8800 all version had toggle switches, none of the versions had slide switches. I've seen the mark-8 with slide switches though. Allison From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Apr 27 17:48:19 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:48:19 -0700 Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: <4BD7633F.4090006@verizon.net> References: <637495.93738.qm@web114613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <2A006896-FFC8-43B9-B413-1B573E071161@xlisper.com>, <4BD73323.9050603@comcast.net>, <4BD7633F.4090006@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Although, usually mechanically poor, I like to use rocker switches. Slide switches are cheap and if used a lot will cause blisters ( as do most toggle switches ). Toggle switches with bat handles are a little better but still a pain to use. Dwight > Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:20:47 -0400 > From: ajp166 at verizon.net > To: > Subject: Re: Altair 8800(ish) > > Dan Roganti wrote: > > > > David Betz wrote: > >> Have you seen Vince Briel's new Altair 8800 kit? It uses an AVR chip > >> to emulate the 8080 CPU but has a "lights and switches" front panel > >> that looks a lot like the original Altair 8800. > >> > >> http://www.brielcomputers.com/ > > > > > > yes, I noticed there was a change from using slide switches in the > > earlier rev to using actual toggle switches, due to some good feedback > > I'm sure, it's still has that nostalgic feel :) > > =Dan > > > > > Huh? The Altair 8800 all version had toggle switches, none of the > versions had slide switches. > I've seen the mark-8 with slide switches though. > > Allison > > > _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Apr 27 18:10:47 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:10:47 -0700 Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: <4BD7633F.4090006@verizon.net> References: <637495.93738.qm@web114613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4BD73323.9050603@comcast.net>, <4BD7633F.4090006@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4BD70C87.4878.1590466@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2010 at 18:20, allison wrote: > Huh? The Altair 8800 all version had toggle switches, none of the > versions had slide switches. I've seen the mark-8 with slide switches > though. Yes, but Vince's first shot used slide switches (cost factor). I helped him find some low-cost submini toggles to preserve the "aura" of the original. --Chuck From bear at typewritten.org Tue Apr 27 20:16:36 2010 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 18:16:36 -0700 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: <4BD7134D.3090509@gmail.com> References: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BD7134D.3090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7052670F-04C1-450E-86F7-2F935BCDF364@typewritten.org> On Apr 27, 2010, at 9:39 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Cost issues aside, I wonder what the average file size is then vs. > now? A comparison of "number of average-sized files that can fit on > a disk" might be interesting. > > For this desktop my average size is 236KB, so it's "about" a million > files on the machine's 250GB disk. I wonder if that number's stayed > reasonably constant across the decades? I think we can reject that premise even without knowing the answer to your first question. In order for it to have remained constant at "about a million files" the average file size would have had to have been 10 bytes. It seems reasonable to assume that's significantly smaller than whatever the actual average file size may have been. ok bear From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 27 21:45:19 2010 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:45:19 -0500 Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD7A13F.9060600@jbrain.com> On 4/27/2010 1:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > So perhaps it's acutally easier to wire ICs from the underside :-) > It's a neat tidbit of information, I'll try it, because I do protos from time to time, but the numbering always seems to get me. > > Do you/ I jeust grab a suitable bit of prototpying board (cut to fit > whatever case it's going to end up in if it's going in a case), roughtly > position the IC sockets (leaving room for others if possible) and start > soldering. I design as I go, based o nthe results of testing the bits > I've buiit and got working. > I think there's a lot of value to designing first. I guess in some cases, the design is truly one off, but often other hobbyists want to know the design. If someone wires it up first, they rarely go back and document it, and then they give the excuse that they don't have time, it's not a priority, etc. For someone who won't buy anything unless it has documentation and schematics, I would assume you see lots of value in the documentation aspect. In my opinion, a lot of good one-off designs are denied the opportunity to be more useful to a larger audience because there is no documentation on them. Putting it on paper first seems like a good idea for all except the most trivial of designs. I don't expect people to diagram a linear PSU, but more complicated designs seem like they would benefit from a "desk check" prior to warming up the iron. Some might argue that it's like software development. If you just need a utility for personal use, then just code it up and go. But, I see it differently, at least until circuits can document themselves like SW can. > > Oh come on. You hve to buy the ICs, the other cvmponets, sockets, etc no > matter what method you use. Buying the SMD adapters is not a problem. And > having all major devices socketed is very useful on a prototype (you can > easilty re-use the chips, you can remove them and force signals high or > low for testing and so on). > I just picked up 2 48 pin TQFP adapters, and they were 3 times the cost of the parts I will solder to them. FOr an upcoming design with 6 SMT ICs, the cost of those nifty boards will exceed the cost of the PCB fabrication. Jim From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 28 01:06:15 2010 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 23:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 8800(ish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <484454.94514.qm@web114607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I asked the creator of the mini-Altair 8800 PC about the possibility of a kit and he emailed to ask how much people would be willing to pay for one. There's no commitment, he just wants to know if it would be worth it for him to offer a kit (you would supply the modern motherboard, CPU, RAM, etc.). Interested and, if so, how much would you pay? Mini Altair 8800 PC http://galacticstudios.org/component/content/article/2-electronics/14-minialtairpc From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 06:00:57 2010 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:00:57 -0500 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies Message-ID: Well, as of yesterday, Sony is planning to stop production of floppy disks. Apparently, other companies will still make them, but I'm sure its only a matter of time.... http://www.crn.com/storage/224600457;jsessionid=GTMHM30DE1HQBQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 06:08:25 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Sat, 24 Apr 2010, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Is this a hard sectored dirve? In any case does the cotnroller use the >>> index pulse fro anyhting? Is that presnet and correct? >> >> Sorry, didn't answer this part of your post: From my read of the >> technical manual, it is hard sectored. There's a dedicated index track on > > Well, it _may_ be... I've had another look at the manual on Bitsavers. > There's a clock track on the bottom platter with a fixed head (as you > say). This seems ot be used as the feedback of the motor speed control, > it also can be divided down to produce the sector pulse or a bit clock. > Of course the controller doesn't have to use that signal. > > Unfortuately much of this circuitry seems to be in one of the gate > arrays. This will make it difficult to debug and even more diffuclt to > repair. I hope that's not the problem. > > But I woul still check it. See if tyhe motor speed feedback signal looks > sensible too while you're in there.. I believe that's fine. By my reading, the drive would not come ready if there were a servo lock problem. > And also, of course ,look at the read data signal. Does it look senesible? I've poked around a bit with a scope. The base clock signals mentioned in the troubleshooting section of the manual are present, shaped correctly, but the periodicity is exactly 2x what's printed there. This is a tough call, though. The manual is for a different (and I believe later) drive model, so that difference might be as expected. It's also possible that it's a typo. If the period was too small, I'd suspect a bad latch in the clock divider. But, _slower_? It's hard to see what type of failure mode would cause that, but perhaps I'm missing the obvious. The index and sector pulses appear to be right on the money. If I look at the output of the analog section, I can see what looks to be reasonable read data. Unfortunately, from this point on there are significant differences between the bitsavers doc and this drive. The board layout is very different on mine and it has fewer gate array chips. The manual suggests that the clock separator PLL is in the gate array, while mine has a DIP MC4044 PLL serving that function. I admit to being a bit fuzzy on how this stage operates (not an EE by background). > Could this be a controller problem? Do you know whether either the > controller of drive are definitely OK? I have no assurance that either is functional. They were in storage for 25 years and the previous owner isn't clear on whether the drive was functional (he bought the system from the original purchaser and did not use it). Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 06:15:31 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 07:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Low level formatting an Apple Profile hard disk In-Reply-To: <720579.17169.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <720579.17169.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Apr 2010, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I'm looking for the requisite ROM image and software to low level format > a Profile 5mb hard disk on an Apple III. From what I've read, I need a > 2k ROM plugged into a Zilog Z8603 that replaces a chip on the controller > board, and format utility booted from floppy. > > So... Does anyone have this software? Burning an eprom and writing a > disk are not a problem - I just can't find the ROM image/software > anywhere. Ian, I have all the necessary files and images for this. They've been sent to your e-mail account, but I've had increasing problems over the years with lost binary attachments so give a yell if you do not receive them? Steve -- From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Tue Apr 27 07:31:13 2010 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 05:31:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PPC 601 and mftb/mftbu Message-ID: <54318.83914.qm@web114201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi Cameron, > I'd sort of independently determined this, although I settled on mfrtcu > which is spr4-5, IIRC. I'm not sure if it's high enough resolution for this > task, but as you point out, rdtsc() in the PPC nanojit is a function, so > it may not be a significant problem. mfrtcu/mfrtcl *should* work on the 603 > and up, right? I'm not so sure. I had a look at the rtc. Although I think there's user-level access for both the 603 and 601 etc, the problem I see with using it is that rtcl counts MOD 10^9 and I'd guess that the use of rdtsc assumes MOD 2^64. -cheers from julz @P From chrise at pobox.com Tue Apr 27 16:34:07 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:34:07 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> <20100426205236.GF23471@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20100427213407.GE2587@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (04/27/2010 at 06:58AM -0700), Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > > > I was able to dump the 8355 and reprogram it into an 8755 for an > > SDK-85 I have. ?I should be able to send you a dump for that later > > today if someone else doesn't beat me to it. > > > > I sent Chris a binary dump of the 8355 from my SDK-85. I haven't > uploaded it anywhere yet. If anyone else needs a copy I could send it > to them, or upload it somewhere. Yes... Thanks again Glen. I haven't gotten back to the project but will soon. And Tony, you are correct on the serial interface. It is sourced by the SOD pin of the 8085 and then a single transistor drives the current loop. You need to invert this before feeding into a 1488 or equiv RS232 driver but that's no big deal. All the TTY I/O runs at 110 baud, timed by busy loops in the firmware but that's not a problem either. There's a routine in the ROM called "co" which will bit-bang chars out the interface as well as one called "nmout" which outputs ascii-hex bytes. But, since Glen sent me the ROM image, I'm set with the bits. Now just need to burn an 8755. Thanks again for the help guys. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Apr 27 20:10:40 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: <4BD6DD40.11718.A0571E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4BD7134D.3090509@gmail.com>, <4BD6DD40.11718.A0571E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Apr 2010 at 20:53, Steve Maddison wrote: > >> It would be interesting, but I'd guess the average file size at the >> time that disk came out was significantly more then ten bytes! > > Consider the time and the target audience (S100 users). Most > probably running some flavor of CP/M. So you're dealing with a > "flat" file system with a fixed number of directory slots (512 was > common for hard disks; a large file was broken into "extents", with > each extent occupying its own slot). So there was a finite limit to > the number of files that could be placed on such a device. > > I seem to recall also that the official CP/M volume size lmitation > was somewhere around 8 MB. Not as restrictive as, say, the Apple II > scheme of making a (IMI?) hard disk look like 50 floppies, but there > are limits. It would be the original Corvus "flat cable" drive with that silly partitioning. They also did that for Atari 800, TRS-80 and a few others. Later on they patched Apple DOS to recognize much larger volumes. > At about the same time we were deploying 7 and 14 MB Rodime 5.25" > drives, I remember that we received a sample drive from Evotek that > was something like 50MB (had a plexiglas HDA cover, so that was kind > of cool to watch). I don't think I ever saw that drive sold. I > stilll have the documentation somewhere. The 8" IMI drive in one of my older Corvus drives has a clear plexi cover as does the Fujitsu 8" unit I'm wrestling with currently. Seemed to be a popular design for the larger form-factor units. I guess they figured if you're paying $5k for a drive you should be able to watch it work :-). Steve -- From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 28 01:48:44 2010 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 02:48:44 -0400 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies References: Message-ID: There should be plenty around (unused) for people who still need them for a decade if not more. When were 5.25" DD disks discontinued? You can still find them cheap on ebay from time to time. I have never used a 8" floppy disk but they are still available. ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe lobocki" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 7:00 AM Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies > Well, as of yesterday, Sony is planning to stop production of floppy > disks. > Apparently, other companies will still make them, but I'm sure its only a > matter of time.... > http://www.crn.com/storage/224600457;jsessionid=GTMHM30DE1HQBQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 28 11:02:29 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:02:29 -0400 Subject: Low level formatting an Apple Profile hard disk In-Reply-To: References: <720579.17169.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <157D57BD-3711-45DA-9A0A-7B28D8649BD8@neurotica.com> On Apr 27, 2010, at 7:15 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I'm looking for the requisite ROM image and software to low level >> format a Profile 5mb hard disk on an Apple III. From what I've >> read, I need a 2k ROM plugged into a Zilog Z8603 that replaces a >> chip on the controller board, and format utility booted from floppy. >> >> So... Does anyone have this software? Burning an eprom and writing >> a disk are not a problem - I just can't find the ROM image/ >> software anywhere. > > I have all the necessary files and images for this. They've been > sent to your e-mail account, I should have some Z8603s here if you get into a bind with that. > but I've had increasing problems over the years with lost binary > attachments so give a yell if you do not receive them? This is because email is not a file transfer mechanism, despite some software appearing to make it easy to do. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Apr 28 11:46:12 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 09:46:12 -0700 Subject: Low level formatting an Apple Profile hard disk In-Reply-To: <157D57BD-3711-45DA-9A0A-7B28D8649BD8@neurotica.com> References: <720579.17169.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <157D57BD-3711-45DA-9A0A-7B28D8649BD8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4BD86654.5090301@bitsavers.org> On 4/28/10 9:02 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I have all the necessary files and images for this. They've been sent >> to your e-mail account, > Are these generally available anywhere? From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Apr 28 12:16:57 2010 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:16:57 -0400 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" Message-ID: Al wrote: >Tim wrote: >>> 10MB for only US$3398 (plus shipping?): >>> http://gizmodo.com/5524908/the-hard-disk-youve-been-waiting-for > >> Who is the actual maker of the XCOMP physical drive in the picture? I'm not familiar with the unit. > >> Corvus sold the IMI (International Memories Incorporated) drive in ?1980? and there was the Seagate ST-506 in 1980 and the Shugart SA1000 in I think 1979. So I'm thinking the XCOMP ad must be the same era. > >> Tim. > The earliest copy of the ad appears in the Jul 81 issue of Byte. > Manufacturers of 10meg drives in 1981 included Miniscribe, RMS, Rodime, Tandon, and TI but > most used similar bezels to the Seagate drives. > The drive is interesting because it integrated the stepper inside with the actuator. I didn't know that TI made small hard drives of that era, interesting. Thinking of old hard drive manufacturers... Was CMI actually making drives back in 1981? They were in Southern California like XCOMP. By the time I saw CMI drives (1983? 1984? PC-AT days) they were being made in the far East in large numbers, and the stepper was on the outside of the housing, but maybe CMI made some drives domestically before that. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 28 12:32:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 10:32:07 -0700 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: References: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <4BD6DD40.11718.A0571E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BD80EA7.11681.5EF860@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Apr 2010 at 21:10, Steven Hirsch wrote: > The 8" IMI drive in one of my older Corvus drives has a clear plexi > cover as does the Fujitsu 8" unit I'm wrestling with currently. > Seemed to be a popular design for the larger form-factor units. I > guess they figured if you're paying $5k for a drive you should be able > to watch it work :-). We got a 5.25" IMI sample drive (like the one in the Corvus Apple box) in for evaluation and played with it for a couple of weeks. It was fun lifting the front end of the drive off the horizontal and listening to the servo go nuts as it attempted to overcome gravitational forces. We decided to stick wtih our SA4000 suitcase and wait for "normal sized" 5.25" drives to mature a bit. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Wed Apr 28 14:10:25 2010 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:10:25 -0400 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> > Well, as of yesterday, Sony is planning to stop production of floppy disks. Apparently, other companies will still make them, but I'm sure its only a matter of time.... > http://www.crn.com/storage/224600457;jsessionid=GTMHM30DE1HQBQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN > The "beginning of the end" for floppies happened a long time ago. From spc at conman.org Wed Apr 28 14:12:32 2010 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:12:32 -0400 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: <4BD7134D.3090509@gmail.com> References: <120517.74975.qm@web114605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4BD7134D.3090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100428191232.GA24268@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > William Blair wrote: > >10MB for only US$3398 (plus shipping?): > > > >http://gizmodo.com/5524908/the-hard-disk-youve-been-waiting-for > > Cost issues aside, I wonder what the average file size is then vs. now? A > comparison of "number of average-sized files that can fit on a disk" might > be interesting. > > For this desktop my average size is 236KB, so it's "about" a million files > on the machine's 250GB disk. I wonder if that number's stayed reasonably > constant across the decades? I actually have hard numbers for my system here (last calculated a few months ago). For my home directory ($HOME, running a Linux system here) the stats are: Files: 503444 Largest path: 339 Largest filename: 85 Largest extention: 59 Largest MIME type: 29 Longest username: 9 Longest groupname: 9 (count) (bytes) count: 503444 46860976844 files: 466163 46709437848 dirs: 35360 151490560 char-device: 0 0 block-device: 0 0 named-pipe: 1 0 symlink: 1918 47753 socket: 0 0 others: 2 683 average size: 93080 median: 3958 and for everything *but* $HOME: Files: 385096 Largest path: 124 Largest filename: 73 Largest extention: 39 Largest MIME type: 25 Longest username: 9 Longest groupname: 9 count: 385096 8563122958 files: 332846 8428072197 dirs: 33266 134631740 char-device: 181 0 block-device: 106 0 named-pipe: 3 0 symlink: 18665 418338 socket: 28 0 others: 1 683 average size: 22236 median: 2826 This, on a 150G drive. -spc (And the sizes almost follow Benford's Law [1][2]) [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1076788 [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1076405 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 28 13:28:26 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:28:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Memorex 102 20MB Hard disk - Found It! In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Apr 27, 10 07:08:25 am Message-ID: > > But I woul still check it. See if tyhe motor speed feedback signal looks > > sensible too while you're in there.. > > I believe that's fine. By my reading, the drive would not come ready if > there were a servo lock problem. You are problably right. On the other hand you should rememebr uyou've not actually checked it just in case you end up not being able to find anything wrong. At which point you check all that it 'bovisouly correct' :-) > > > And also, of course ,look at the read data signal. Does it look senesible? > > I've poked around a bit with a scope. The base clock signals mentioned in > the troubleshooting section of the manual are present, shaped correctly, > but the periodicity is exactly 2x what's printed there. This is a tough Since yours is an earlier drive, it might well have a lower data density which could imply slower data clocks. > call, though. The manual is for a different (and I believe later) drive > model, so that difference might be as expected. It's also possible that > it's a typo. If the period was too small, I'd suspect a bad latch in the > clock divider. But, _slower_? It's hard to see what type of failure mode > would cause that, but perhaps I'm missing the obvious. For the moment I'd not worry about it. But again, rememebr the oddity. > > The index and sector pulses appear to be right on the money. OK, so the problem is not there. > > If I look at the output of the analog section, I can see what looks to be > reasonable read data. Unfortunately, from this point on there are > significant differences between the bitsavers doc and this drive. The > board layout is very different on mine and it has fewer gate array chips. > The manual suggests that the clock separator PLL is in the gate array, > while mine has a DIP MC4044 PLL serving that function. I admit to being a > bit fuzzy on how this stage operates (not an EE by background). What do you get at the output of this stage? Do you get reasonable-looking data and clock signals? If you have fewer gate arrays and more standard chips, it actually makes life easier because you can probably get data sheets on them. The MC4044 is a well-known device that somebody must have the data sheets for. Oh, and for the record I'm not an EE either :-) I really do wonder if the problem is in the controller. Do you have any documetation on that? Scheamtics? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 28 13:46:20 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:46:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <20100427213407.GE2587@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Apr 27, 10 04:34:07 pm Message-ID: > > And Tony, you are correct on the serial interface. It is sourced by the > SOD pin of the 8085 and then a single transistor drives the current loop. It was Allison who said it used the SID and SOD pins of the 8085. However this agrees wit hthe schematic in the book I have. I can't find the links that Allison mentioned to seleect TTL/current loop/RS232 mode. So either there are 2 versions of the board or my scheamtics are 'simplified'. The only lionk I can see selects whether SID comes from the current loop interface or is held low. If I am reading the monitor lisitng correctly, then the bit of code starting at 0x0049 checks to see if the SID pin is high or low. If the former it assumes a working current loop device is connected (idle state would be to have the Tx loop complete. so Q1 would be turned on, so SID high) and runs the teletype monitor, if the latter, it runs the keypad/7-seg display monitor. It's possible I've totally mis-uderstood this, I am not really a programmer, and I've only just started looking at the SDK-85 monitor source listings. > You need to invert this before feeding into a 1488 or equiv RS232 > driver but that's no big deal. All the TTY I/O runs at 110 baud, I suspect you could use the current loop output trransistor as this inverter (see my previous message). And I suspect that if you buffered the RS232 output from you PC (using, say, a 1489), and fed that into the current loop input -- pin 12 of J7 -- and cut R1 :-) then that would work too. Or invert the output of the 1489 (say using a '04 -- or even another secion of the 1489 as a kludge :-)) and feed it into the SID pin of the 8085 with the link S25 totally removed. I would think that 110 bard would be trivial to do, and for the amount of data you need to transfer, not a real problem. The monitor is 2K, 110 bard is 10 characters/second, so that's just oaver 200 seconds. Under 4 minutes. > timed by busy loops in the firmware but that's not a problem either. > There's a routine in the ROM called "co" which will bit-bang chars out > the interface as well as one called "nmout" which outputs ascii-hex bytes= > Or you could run the tty monitor and use the 'D' command to dump the approrpatie area of memory (0 to 7FF I think). Capture the incoming data on the PC (I think any reasonable terminal progam can do that -- C-Kermit certainly can) and write a simple program to decode the hex dump back to binary. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 28 13:51:10 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:51:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <4BD762AB.8060400@verizon.net> from "allison" at Apr 27, 10 06:18:19 pm Message-ID: > Yes, but the SDK85 design you could jumper the IO for > RS232, 20ma or TTL. OK, I am being dense... The schematics I have (which I will admit is printed in a book, it's not an Intel original, but it does say 'Reproduced by permission of Intel Corporation') doesn't appear to show any such links. It just shows 1-transistor buffer stages connected to the SID and SOD pins. Can you point me at a schematic of the SDK85 that does show these jumpers, please. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 28 14:27:21 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 20:27:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: low cost prototype PCB vendor? In-Reply-To: <4BD7A13F.9060600@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Apr 27, 10 09:45:19 pm Message-ID: > > Do you/ I jeust grab a suitable bit of prototpying board (cut to fit > > whatever case it's going to end up in if it's going in a case), roughtly > > position the IC sockets (leaving room for others if possible) and start > > soldering. I design as I go, based o nthe results of testing the bits > > I've buiit and got working. > > > I think there's a lot of value to designing first. I guess in some Note I said nothing about the value of documeting the final design. I do beleive that that is _essential_. But there's no reason that the schematic has to be drawn before you start to solder... > cases, the design is truly one off, but often other hobbyists want to > know the design. If someone wires it up first, they rarely go back and > document it, and then they give the excuse that they don't have time, It shoudln't take that long. > it's not a priority, etc. For someone who won't buy anything unless it > has documentation and schematics, I would assume you see lots of value > in the documentation aspect. In my opinion, a lot of good one-off I do, which is why I have schematics of everything I've designed, notes how why I did certain things, and the like. Of course I include things that are useful when I need to repair it, like wire colours, pinouts of all internal connectors, which gate in an IC is used where, etc. > designs are denied the opportunity to be more useful to a larger > audience because there is no documentation on them. Putting it on paper > first seems like a good idea for all except the most trivial of > designs. I don't expect people to diagram a linear PSU, but more I include all diagrams (including PSUs). The only exception is when something is so totally obvious from looking at the device that a schematic would be a wast of time. > complicated designs seem like they would benefit from a "desk check" > prior to warming up the iron. It depends on what it is, just as with programming. Sometimes I will 'desk check' a section before wiring it. Obviously I may need to calculate component values used in analogue sections of the circuity. But I don't need to desk-check the address and data buses between (say) a Z80 and an EPROM. I'll just wire those and doucment them in the final version. > > Some might argue that it's like software development. If you just need > a utility for personal use, then just code it up and go. But, I see it > differently, at least until circuits can document themselves like SW can. It depends on what I am coding or building, as I said. I always start by thinking about it :-). Sometimes I then start by coding/soldering, sometimes I need to plan some sections (but only some sections) more carefully. But just as I wouldn't write the full documetation for a program before Iwrote one line of code, nor would I draw the complete scheamtic before I started soldering. With programming I often need to write a routine and make sure it behaves correctly before I write more of the program. Same with hardware. I'll build a bit, make sure that works, before I build the next bit. > > > > Oh come on. You hve to buy the ICs, the other cvmponets, sockets, etc no > > matter what method you use. Buying the SMD adapters is not a problem. And > > having all major devices socketed is very useful on a prototype (you can > > easilty re-use the chips, you can remove them and force signals high or > > low for testing and so on). > > > I just picked up 2 48 pin TQFP adapters, and they were 3 times the cost > of the parts I will solder to them. FOr an upcoming design with 6 SMT > ICs, the cost of those nifty boards will exceed the cost of the PCB > fabrication. SInce the SMD adapters are esseitnally PCBs with header pins soldered to them, why not just lay out said adapter PCBS and get them etched, Should be cheaper than buying them. If you're such a good designer that your PCBs work first tine, then great. If you don't mind waiting server days betweencoming up with the design and soldering the frist component then great again. But I am not like that. I need to test as I go. -tony From lists at softpres.org Wed Apr 28 15:04:03 2010 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:04:03 +0100 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64153F00-A376-48D3-B1A4-2CCCDB5C4261@softpres.org> I assume these guys are still in business, and they seem to still produce 3.5, 5.25 and 8" floppies. http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html I've not ordered from them, so that is not a personal recommendation, but I guess there will be demand for a good while yet. On 28 Apr 2010, at 07:48, Teo Zenios wrote: > There should be plenty around (unused) for people who still need > them for a decade if not more. > > When were 5.25" DD disks discontinued? You can still find them cheap > on ebay from time to time. > > I have never used a 8" floppy disk but they are still available. > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe lobocki" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 7:00 AM > Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies > > >> Well, as of yesterday, Sony is planning to stop production of >> floppy disks. >> Apparently, other companies will still make them, but I'm sure its >> only a >> matter of time.... >> http://www.crn.com/storage/224600457;jsessionid=GTMHM30DE1HQBQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 15:47:23 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:47:23 -0400 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> References: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> Message-ID: 2010/4/28 Evan Koblentz : > >> Well, as of yesterday, Sony is planning to stop production of floppy >> disks. Apparently, other companies will still make them, but I'm sure its >> only a matter of time.... >> >> http://www.crn.com/storage/224600457;jsessionid=GTMHM30DE1HQBQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN >> > The "beginning of the end" for floppies happened a long time ago. Like when Apple stopped including a floppy drive in iMacs (remember all the screaming in PC quarters about how they were still important?) Personally, in the past 8 years, I've only used floppies at work for BIOS upgrades. Prior to that, it was for Linux and Win98 installs where I couldn't boot a CD-ROM directly. They will always be important for vintage gear (I still have and use 8" floppies), but unlike how paper tape was still available (due to CNCs) once it wasn't used daily with computers anymore, it might be harder to find certain varieties of floppy media 20 years from now. -ethan From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Apr 28 15:52:17 2010 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:52:17 -0700 Subject: "The Hard Disk You've Been Waiting For" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 4/27/10 6:10 PM, "Steven Hirsch" wrote: > The 8" IMI drive in one of my older Corvus drives has a clear plexi cover > as does the Fujitsu 8" unit I'm wrestling with currently. Seemed to be a > popular design for the larger form-factor units. I guess they figured if > you're paying $5k for a drive you should be able to watch it work :-). > > Steve A friend had a multi-processor Altos (IIRC) with several 8085's in it, and it used a 10 or 12 inch Kennedy hard drive, the entire 'bubble' surrounding the sides and top of the platters and head mechanism was plexi or some similar material, it was interesting to watch spin up. Also the 8" drives used in Radio Shack 4 and 8 meg hard drive units had a clear plastic or plexi top. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Apr 28 15:51:57 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:51:57 -0700 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <4BD762AB.8060400@verizon.net> from "allison" at Apr 27, 10 06:18:19 pm, Message-ID: Hi I was thinking about the problem that it would work after freeze spray, until powered on again. It might be that the failing bit was only used during boot and not needed for the normal monitor operation. This would then fail on the next reboot. Just some idle thinking. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 28 16:20:47 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20100428141148.S74315@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Like when Apple stopped including a floppy drive in iMacs (remember > all the screaming in PC quarters about how they were still important?) We laughed at Jobs when he didn't have a floppy drive in the Next. ("How can ANY software marketing be done without cheap writable, mailable media?") But, eventually, the market caught up with his closed hardware dream, with internet distribution. "But it will take DAYS to download a word processor, even at 1200 bps!" But, like B&W photographic print paper, it is possible to still find some with enough searching. There don't seem to be any local sources for film for my still and movie cameras, other than 35mm color. From andreww591 at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 16:23:25 2010 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:23:25 -0600 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting Message-ID: <4BD8A74D.5000402@gmail.com> I have an AlphaServer 1000A 4/266 that is not booting. When I power it up, nothing shows up on the control panel LCD and there are no beep codes. I know that the motherboard is receiving power because the "link active" light on the Ethernet adapter comes on. Is there anything that I can do to fix it, or should I just try to find another Alpha (I don't seem to have much luck with Alphas - I have a DEC 3000/300X with a bad RAM slot). From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Apr 28 16:34:08 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for Thomas Foote Message-ID: I'm trying to find Thomas Foote, the author of DroidQuest. You may remember a game for the Apple 2 called "Robot Odyssey". DroidQuest is that game reimplemented in Java. The last trace I've seen of him was when he posted to his DroidQuest mailing list on Yahoo two years ago. I emailed him again a few days ago with no reply. I have several enhancements and bugfixed I'd like to discuss. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 28 16:10:52 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:10:52 +0100 Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop References: <001b01cae647$a9257030$edfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BD75994.6060803@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <012301cae71c$6d6bead0$a7fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:39 PM Subject: Re: Looking for an Apple /// keytop > On 26/04/2010 22:17, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > Or how about a way to replace key labels? The bottom right leg of the 'K' on > > my laptop is half gone. Other letters are also being worn away in places. > > Sure I could use plain old white labels and write (or print) letters on > > them, but it would look very tacky :( > > Some engravers will engrave plastic keytops. Makes a change from sports > trophies. > > Proper keycaps of course are two-shot moulded :-) > My dad used to do glass engraving (from home) about 20 years ago. Didn't get much work, so he ended up selling the kit several years later. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jim at photojim.ca Wed Apr 28 16:49:38 2010 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:49:38 -0600 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> <20100428141148.S74315@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 3:20 PM Subject: Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > But, like B&W photographic print paper, it is possible to still find some > with enough searching. There don't seem to be any local sources for film > for my still and movie cameras, other than 35mm color. It's around. Good photo stores still sell it (although there are fewer and fewer such stores). There are also plenty of mail-order establishments who sell it. Even Kodachrome made it until last year (processing ends December 31, 2010 however). Kodak even announced a new Super-8 movie film earlier this month. It's also possible to make your own black-and-white photographic paper (although it's not super easy) and there are alternative processes that are easier that can be done in the darkroom (e.g. cyanotype, platinum-palladium printing, gum prints, ...). I suspect, though, that we will not be manually making our own floppy disks in 50 years. What annoys me about the floppy disk situation is that floppies remain the only really inexpensive and easily reusable medium out there. CD- and DVD+/- RW have issues of reliability and compatibility (and are not very resistant to damage), and flash drives are too expensive (they're fine for people to buy and use but a little expensive for the typical person to buy and give away). ZIP and JAZ were never popular enough. I still use floppies, even on modern systems. For some applications, they're more than big enough. I even installed a floppy drive into my desktop a few months ago, so that I wouldn't have to use a USB floppy drive. Jim From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 17:22:38 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 23:22:38 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting In-Reply-To: <4BD8A74D.5000402@gmail.com> References: <4BD8A74D.5000402@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 28 April 2010 22:23, Andrew Warkentin wrote: > I have an AlphaServer 1000A 4/266 that is not booting. When I power it up, > nothing shows up on the control panel LCD and there are no beep codes. I > know that the motherboard is receiving power because the "link active" light > on the Ethernet adapter comes on. Is there anything that I can do to fix it, > or should I just try to find another Alpha (I don't seem to have much luck > with Alphas - I have a DEC 3000/300X with a bad RAM slot). > There's every chance the LCD is hosed, do you get anything out of a console connection? From what I remember the A1000A doesn't beep on successful POST, first machine to do that was the DS20. -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 28 17:43:51 2010 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:43:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM> References: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> <20100428141148.S74315@shell.lmi.net> <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM> Message-ID: <20100428150741.U76444@shell.lmi.net> > > But, like B&W photographic print paper, it is possible to still find some > > with enough searching. There don't seem to be any local sources for film > > for my still and movie cameras, other than 35mm color. On Wed, 28 Apr 2010, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > It's around. Good photo stores still sell it (although there are fewer and > fewer such stores). There are also plenty of mail-order establishments who > sell it. 8x10 sheet film 5x7 sheet 4x5 sheet 4x5 plates Polaroid 55 3.25x4.25 sheet 2.25x3.25 sheet 6x9cm sheet 9x12cm sheet 220 roll 120 roll 35mm Tessina (need some empties to reload) 16mm Minolta (need empties) 16mm cine REGULAR 8mm cine (actually 16mm with additional perf) 9.5mm Minox and a few arcane formats that I no longer use, are almost all available, with more searching than is worth the effort. There USED TO BE some "good" photo stores around here. > What annoys me about the floppy disk situation is that floppies remain the > only really inexpensive and easily reusable medium out there. CD- and > DVD+/- RW have issues of reliability and compatibility (and are not very > resistant to damage), and flash drives are too expensive (they're fine for > people to buy and use but a little expensive for the typical person to buy > and give away). ZIP and JAZ were never popular enough. Somehow, I'm not very upset about the demise of Iomega products. I predict availability of "almost disposable" cost flash drives. OMG, will AOHell start mailing media again? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From trag at io.com Wed Apr 28 17:44:23 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:44:23 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56b376986cfdfd09711cd897bb6d372f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 22:17:22 +0100 > From: "Andrew Burton" > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 25, 2010 6:23 PM > Subject: Re: Looking for an Apple /// keytop > > >> > >> > I'm looking for the 6 keytop from the numeric keypad for an Apple ///. >> > I've already replaced the broken-off keyswitch, but, of course the >> > keytop is long gone. >> >> On a related subject, has anyone managed to make their own keycaps >> either >> by using ah ome-made injection moulding machine (I've seen a couple of >> books on this, and the average keycap is small enough to be made that >> way) or using one of htose rapid prototyping machines ('3D printers')? >> >> -tony > > Or how about a way to replace key labels? The bottom right leg of the 'K' > on > my laptop is half gone. Other letters are also being worn away in places. > Sure I could use plain old white labels and write (or print) letters on > them, but it would look very tacky :( Are the Apple III keycaps at all similar to the IIe keycaps? I have a bunch of new Apple IIe Platinum (extended) keyboards in the attic. If it's useful to you we can work something out off list. I thought I could use the key switches (from the IIe) on Mac Plus keyboards, but they're a little too different. Still, it's tempting to rig up a micro to take the IIe input and convert it to the Plus protocol, but really, when would I get far enough through the project queue to do that? Jeff Walther From fjgjr1 at aol.com Wed Apr 28 18:01:06 2010 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:01:06 -0400 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CCB53DD1877FB7-15CC-5BD0@webmail-d063.sysops.aol.com> Recent thread on ?beginning of end for floppies ? Sony dropping production.? Since some ?recent chatter? about this ? the following is what I have found out so far. Check out PLR Electronics in Texas on the web ? WWW.PLRELECTRONICS.COM. They offer an option of a ?3.5? floppy drive to USB flash drive reader? - a disk drive ?emulator? ? 3.5? & 5.25? with files recorded to a USB thumb drive - $275 ? no disk drive or floppies required. You simply replace your disk drive with this device [fits in drive bay and connects directly to existing power & ribbon cables] and it acts like a disk drive. No software to install. They have their manuals, etc. as PDF files posted on their web site. You get it from an embroidery place EMBACCESS [www.embroiderybids.com] which may seem odd. But the key I found out from them is that many third world countries that use various fabric machines [e.g., embroidery, sewing, etc.] still use older fabric machines that make use of such floppy drives / disks. Also other industries use them ? e.g., machining, etc. The PLR Electronics owner, a computer science grad, saw the need and made it. So far, works just fine, but I am still evaluating it. More on this later. Obviously, not for everyone. Service prompt, courteous, knowledgeable, etc. and even upgraded shipping to FEDEX from USPS, when I called about some details of my order. Order was requested by PLR to be even tracked by FEDEX and I got email reports. Only one that I found on web that seems to ?really? do this + available, much info, prompt / knowledgeable service, USA company, etc. If others similar, please let us know. You need to specify that it is for ?an IBM compatible drive? and not another type of disk drive that might be used on a non-computer machine. Best to call, since this ordering option is not on web site. Also, the optional ?file chooser,? is shipped separately, if you get it. Mine came 4 days later, FEDEX also. Funny story to help possibly brighten your day ? FEDEX delivered it on a Saturday ? so not expected. My wife ran over it with her car backing out of the garage. It survived, but obviously, not recommended !!! Case needed some ?adjustment? to fit in drive bay, but it worked !!! Hope this is of some interest and use. Backward compatibility has always been an issue for many and probably always will be. This device provides another option. Frank -----Original Message----- From: joe lobocki To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Tue, Apr 27, 2010 7:00 am Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies Well, as of yesterday, Sony is planning to stop production of floppy disks. pparently, other companies will still make them, but I'm sure its only a atter of time.... ttp://www.crn.com/storage/224600457;jsessionid=GTMHM30DE1HQBQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN From cclist at sydex.com Wed Apr 28 18:31:22 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:31:22 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <8CCB53DD1877FB7-15CC-5BD0@webmail-d063.sysops.aol.com> References: , <8CCB53DD1877FB7-15CC-5BD0@webmail-d063.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4BD862DA.16458.1A7E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2010 at 19:01, fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: I posted a fairly long list of emulators not too long ago. $275 is on the high end--the Chinese version of these (which perhaps is the same as the one you describe) can be had for about $50. It's not much--just a uC and some "glue". There are at least two DIY versions on the web. But none of the off-the-shelf versions is going to help with my Brother word processor (uses GCR to put 240K on a 3.5") or a real DEC RX02 disk (uses DEC's own version of MFM) or an early Lanier word processor (uses hard-sectored 8" MMFM recording) or those 5.25" floppies sitting in my drawer that work with Drivetec 2MB and 4MB drives. And no one, that I'm aware of, claims to be able to handle copy- protection emulation. It's sort of odd, a lot of embroidery equipment originally ran with paper tape, then substituted external boxes with floppy drives for the paper tape reader. Now, I guess we're substituting flash-based floppy emulators for the floppy-based paper-tape emulators. I can hardly wait until we start flogging flash memory emulators to plug into the floppy emulators that plug into the paper tape emulators... --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 28 18:54:24 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:54:24 -0700 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> <002901cae543$6ce00270$46a00750$@net> Message-ID: <4BD8CAB0.50CB8075@cs.ubc.ca> On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist > > What I have discovered is that the 8355 ROM+IO chip is flakey. It won't > work unless I freeze it with component cooler. Once I have done that, > then it starts working and stays working for hours as long as power is > not removed. If it gets powered down, then I have to freeze it again > before the device will respond with valid fetches. ... > Any guesses as to what the failure mode might be of the 8355? It is sort > of curious that once it gets started from frozen, it keeps working nicely. > > I already did my time at ETA, cooling chips in liquid nitrogen so that's > kind of behind me now ;-) robo351 wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > Freeze spray fixes usually give one additional troubleshooting information > but I've never seen a case where the component continues to work until power > is removed. By way of anecdote, an early Nixie digital multimeter I used to use once developed a problem: it would be working fine one moment, then, intermittently, as one was making a measurement it would decide to go into a hard all-zeroes display. Nothing would bring it out of that state except for powering it off and back on. Very frustrating to use; struggled for ages (years) ans several attempts to figure out what the trigger/fault was. Difficult to diagnose as the various feedback loops in the discrete A/D converter made it impossible to discern where the problem had initiated once it had been triggerred into the fixed state. Of course, when one accessed the unit to work on it, it worked fine and refused to fail at all. As it turned out, a junction-FET had developed a sensitivity to changes in the nearby electrostatic or electromagnetic field, or to stray photons: the "+"-polarity indicator in the display was a neon lamp located within a few millimetres of the FET, when the lamp switched on the FET would trigger into a latch-up state. (Accessing the unit for service moved the neon lamp a couple of centimetres away from the FET, which explained why it didn't fail then.) So, all in the realm of speculation, but marginal or spurious semiconductor junctions can do funny things, like exhibiting weird latch-up behaviour. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Apr 28 19:14:10 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 17:14:10 -0700 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> <20100428141148.S74315@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4BD8CF51.96238CC5@cs.ubc.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Wed, 28 Apr 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Like when Apple stopped including a floppy drive in iMacs (remember > > all the screaming in PC quarters about how they were still important?) > > We laughed at Jobs when he didn't have a floppy drive in the Next. > ("How can ANY software marketing be done without cheap writable, mailable > media?") > But, eventually, the market caught up with his closed hardware dream, with > internet distribution. "But it will take DAYS to download a word > processor, even at 1200 bps!" Back in the early/mid 90's when the 'Net was nascent and 'high-capacity' CD-ROM distribution was the rage, a friend decided to get into the multi-media production business. I suggested networking was the future but he went with CD-ROM-based development. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 19:52:18 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:52:18 -0300 Subject: Help Forwarding a pair of boards References: <56b376986cfdfd09711cd897bb6d372f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <003b01cae736$406c9ab0$b35775bb@portajara> Dear Friends, I got on ebay a pair of boards I was looking for my logic analyzer. Unfortunately the seller doesn't send them to Brasil. Is there a friend who could forward these boards for me? Of course you can open up the packet and inspect the contents. Of course, I pay for your time. Thanks a lot!!! I;m crazy for these boards Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Apr 28 20:06:44 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 02:06:44 +0100 Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: <4BD75994.6060803@dunnington.plus.com> References: <001b01cae647$a9257030$edfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BD75994.6060803@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4BD8DBA4.8020505@philpem.me.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Some engravers will engrave plastic keytops. Makes a change from sports > trophies. Hmm. I wonder if any of the local engravers can deal with anodised aluminium instrument panels... Would be a very easy way to get some panels done up for the DiscFerret prototypes -- use the Dremel to knock out the holes, then have them engraved. Not sure about cheap though... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ssj152 at centurytel.net Wed Apr 28 20:50:52 2010 From: ssj152 at centurytel.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 20:50:52 -0500 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting Message-ID: <873844A3-BF18-4924-870F-C71F87128590@centurytel.net> Andrew Warkentin wrote: "I know that the motherboard is receiving power because the "link active" light on the Ethernet adapter comes on." I hate to tell you but the ethernet boards led's come on anytime a cable is plugged in that is connected to other related equipment - a hub, switch, or another computer via a "null-modem" cable. It does that even with the power cord unplugged. Do you have any of the manuals for the 1000A? I have manuals for the Alphaserver 1000A if they might help. Good luck! From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Apr 28 21:05:30 2010 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:05:30 -0400 Subject: Help Forwarding a pair of boards In-Reply-To: <003b01cae736$406c9ab0$b35775bb@portajara> References: <56b376986cfdfd09711cd897bb6d372f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <003b01cae736$406c9ab0$b35775bb@portajara> Message-ID: <310BD107-0E9B-421B-8F4C-3A81A56002D4@colourfull.com> Hi Alexandre, Did you get some help? I don't mind sending them to Brazil. Let me know. Rob On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I got on ebay a pair of boards I was looking for my logic analyzer. Unfortunately the seller doesn't send them to Brasil. > > Is there a friend who could forward these boards for me? Of course you can open up the packet and inspect the contents. Of course, I pay for your time. > > Thanks a lot!!! I;m crazy for these boards > > Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From andreww591 at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 22:41:37 2010 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:41:37 -0600 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting In-Reply-To: <873844A3-BF18-4924-870F-C71F87128590@centurytel.net> References: <873844A3-BF18-4924-870F-C71F87128590@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <4BD8FFF1.3010507@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > > There's every chance the LCD is hosed, do you get anything out of a console > connection? From what I remember the A1000A doesn't beep on successful POST, > first machine to do that was the DS20. > > No, nothing comes up on the display. The strange thing is that it was sitting for a few months, and it worked fine the previous time I turned it on. Stuart Johnson wrote: > I hate to tell you but the ethernet boards led's come on anytime a cable is plugged in that is connected to other related equipment - a hub, switch, or another computer via a "null-modem" cable. It does that even with the power cord unplugged. > > The light on mine doesn't come on when the computer is turned off. I've never seen any Ethernet adapter or transceiver on which the link active light comes on even when the adapter isn't receiving power. I've seen quite a few on which the light comes on when the computer is plugged in but turned off, but that is because the adapter is receiving standby power (the AlphaServer 1000A 4/xxx motherboard does not receive standby power as far as I know). > Do you have any of the manuals for the 1000A? I have manuals for the Alphaserver 1000A if they might help. > > Good luck! I downloaded the user manual and the service manual, but I don't really think that there was much in there that was helpful for this situation. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 28 22:54:44 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 23:54:44 -0400 Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: <56b376986cfdfd09711cd897bb6d372f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <56b376986cfdfd09711cd897bb6d372f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: Ok, it's been a few days, but I've finally looked at the /// that I dug out of my mother's garage during her recent move. It's missing two keycaps, the two upper rightmost keys from the main keyboard (not the numeric pad). Not having the caps, and not being able to find a decent picture in ten seconds of googling, I don't know which keys they are. Anybody gots? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Apr 28 23:14:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 00:14:01 -0400 Subject: Help Forwarding a pair of boards In-Reply-To: <003b01cae736$406c9ab0$b35775bb@portajara> References: <56b376986cfdfd09711cd897bb6d372f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> <003b01cae736$406c9ab0$b35775bb@portajara> Message-ID: On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I got on ebay a pair of boards I was looking for my logic > analyzer. Unfortunately the seller doesn't send them to Brasil. > > Is there a friend who could forward these boards for me? Of > course you can open up the packet and inspect the contents. Of > course, I pay for your time. > > Thanks a lot!!! I;m crazy for these boards The paperwork of international shipping sucks, but I think I still owe you some WD33C93 chips anyway, don't I? I can send those boards to you if you haven't solved this problem yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 29 02:11:52 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:11:52 +0200 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM> References: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> <20100428141148.S74315@shell.lmi.net> <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM> Message-ID: <20100429091152.635964b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:49:38 -0600 "Jim MacKenzie" wrote: > I still use floppies, even on modern systems. I don't. And I am glad that floppies are gone. 3.5" flppies: I stoped using floppies about 10 years ago. I was tired of copying the same data to at least three floppies in the hope that at least one of the floppies would be readable. At that time it was just impossible to get reliable media and drives. Floppies where cheap and unreliable PeeCee junk. It was a bit better in the early 90'is. (When a simple floppy drive cost two or three times as much as a DVD drive today.) I remember when I had to flash the firmware of an AlphaServer 1000 (?) due to an EV4 to EV5 CPU upgrade. The only way to do it was floppy. It was a nightmare. I had to try several floppies and drives, write errors, read errors, ... ARGL! 5.25" flppies: Used them in the C64 / C128D era and early PeeCee days. Mostly worked. But at that time (1990) 3.5" floppies where halfway usable too. 8" flppies where already gone and replaced by 5.25", when I got my fingers on a computer for the first time. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 29 02:41:18 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 00:41:18 -0700 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <20100429091152.635964b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: , <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM>, <20100429091152.635964b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4BD8D5AE.18946.3686DDB@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2010 at 9:11, Jochen Kunz wrote: > 8" flppies where already gone and replaced by 5.25", when I got my > fingers on a computer for the first time. -- 8" floppies are quite reliable. I routinely get 30+ year old disks in and rarely have a problem with data errors. Although I do have an odd case before me. The subject floppies are from a Schlumberger wafer tester. What was sent were hard-sector (32 sector) floppies, but the data is definitely soft-sector (i.e. the sectors don't line up with the sector holes and use address marks (i.e. A1 with a missing clock) to demarcate sector headers and sector data.) My guess is that the drive was set up to handle hard sectored media., so that the controller still sees only one index pulse. The sector address headers, rather than use CHRN type information, use 2 bytes to number the sectors on the disk consecutively. The odd thing is that on a few floppies, the data (and address headers) is in the wrong place for that cylinder (e.g., track 3 contains the same address headers and data as track 9). I'm trying to figure out if it's the customer's drive or his software (he's halfway around the world from me). Very strange. --Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Apr 29 03:03:22 2010 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:03:22 +0200 Subject: Strange formats, was Re: the beginning of the end for floppies References: , <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM>, <20100429091152.635964b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4BD8D5AE.18946.3686DDB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <082A5B0EA8ED490C85F4C2DE0F857EF3@udvikling> From: "Chuck Guzis" > Although I do have an odd case before me. The subject floppies are > from a Schlumberger wafer tester. What was sent were hard-sector (32 > sector) floppies, but the data is definitely soft-sector (i.e. the > sectors don't line up with the sector holes and use address marks > (i.e. A1 with a missing clock) to demarcate sector headers and > sector data.) My guess is that the drive was set up to handle hard > sectored media., so that the controller still sees only one index > pulse. > Some years ago I came across an 8" Norsk Data floppy. The analyze software called it a IBM 374x, but the data I read was gibberish. A closer look showed that track 0 was indeed like a 3741. One file was present. OK so far. It then showed, that this 1 file was formatted as a normal MS-DOS directory. I managed to dump this directory to a DOS formatted floppy, and voila, the data was saved. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 04:01:25 2010 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:01:25 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting In-Reply-To: <4BD8FFF1.3010507@gmail.com> References: <873844A3-BF18-4924-870F-C71F87128590@centurytel.net> <4BD8FFF1.3010507@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29 April 2010 04:41, Andrew Warkentin wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: > >> >> There's every chance the LCD is hosed, do you get anything out of a >> console >> connection? From what I remember the A1000A doesn't beep on successful >> POST, >> first machine to do that was the DS20. >> >> >> > No, nothing comes up on the display. > > The strange thing is that it was sitting for a few months, and it worked > fine the previous time I turned it on. > PSU is probably bad, I'm assuming the power switch itself works and you get a power LED lit under the LCD? -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Apr 29 06:15:28 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 04:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: <56b376986cfdfd09711cd897bb6d372f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <33193.2148.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 4/28/10, Jeff Walther wrote: > Are the Apple III keycaps at all similar to the IIe > keycaps?? I have a > bunch of new Apple IIe Platinum (extended) keyboards in the > attic.? If > it's useful to you we can work something out off list. They're the same physical size, but they are different colors. Right now I've got a IIe key on there, it's functional, but it looks wrong :) > I thought I could use the key switches (from the IIe) on > Mac Plus > keyboards, but they're a little too > different. Actually, you can... Many years ago, the first original Macintosh that I owned had several dead keys. I replaced the faulty keyswitches with ones from a junked IIe keyboard. The only difference was the pin spacing - I simply drilled holes in the circuit board to allow the pins from the IIe keyswitch to pass through, then soldered jumper wires back to the proper traces. -Ian From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Apr 29 06:27:50 2010 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:27:50 -0400 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM> References: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> <20100428141148.S74315@shell.lmi.net> <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM> Message-ID: <4BD96D36.7010403@compsys.to> >Jim MacKenzie wrote: > I still use floppies, even on modern systems. For some applications, > they're more than big enough. I even installed a floppy drive into my > desktop a few months ago, so that I wouldn't have to use a USB floppy > drive. I have both 5 1/4" and 3.5" HD floppy drives on my Pentium III system. My newer core 2 quad running Windows XP also has a 3.5" HD floppy drive. In both cases, the primary purpose is to run DOS so that I can run the backup program GHOST which must run under DOS. The version I use is able to generate a text file listing every file in the backup image along with a modify date and a 32 bit CRC value. While that capability is limited to disk partitions which use a FAT32, the restriction does not seem to have been a problem with Windows XP as far as I am concerned. The newer system will also support a 5 1/4" floppy drive, but only one floppy drive at a time. If I find I need the 5 1/4" drive, I can always switch while it is needed. Originally, on the Pentium III system, I used the 5 1/4" drive to pass small files to the PDP-11/83 system running RT-11. I don't seem to need that much any more, so the 5 1/4" floppy drive may stay in the box for a long time. On the other hand, about 3 years ago, a friend needed a copy of one of my files. The file was small at around 1 MB, but hard media was essential. Without a floppy drive, I had to make up a CD for the transfer. So there is no doubt that some systems will get along without a floppy drive. Jerome Fine From robbert.stam at erasmusmc.nl Wed Apr 28 06:18:23 2010 From: robbert.stam at erasmusmc.nl (R. Stam) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:18:23 +0200 Subject: Anybody need some NSC 800-3I's? Message-ID: <4BD8197F.90503@erasmusmc.nl> Hello Chuck, Do you still have those NSC800 chips? I would like to buy them all! Robbert Stam > /Mon Jan 23 19:11:42 CST 2006/ > while back I posted a WTB for some NSC 800 CPU chips and didn't turn > up anyone having any for sale. Calls to the usual surplus places came > up empty. I did finally manage to snag a bunch of these--more than I > need. These are the 3 MHz ceramic 40 pin DIP packages with a date code > in late 1986. Supposedly NOS (they certainly don't appear to be > pulls). In case you're not familiar with these, they're basically CMOS > Z80 CPUs with 8085 timings. They have the same half-interrupt pins > that the 8085 does, but NMI traps to 0066H and there's no RIM or SIM. > Interface signals are prety much 8085-compatible with the 8085-style > multipexed data/address lines. These are NOT pin-compatible with > either the 8085 or the Z80, but my need for them is to replace an 8085 > with the assistance of a little glue (mostly flipping a few signals). > You can find the data sheet on the web at > http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/NSC/NSC800.html. At any > rate, I've got about 15 of these to spare and will part with them for > $2 each+postage I'll give preference to those buying more than one. > Cheers, Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Wed Apr 28 16:41:14 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:41:14 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <4BD762AB.8060400@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20100428214114.GH23471@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (04/28/2010 at 07:51PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, but the SDK85 design you could jumper the IO for > > RS232, 20ma or TTL. > > OK, I am being dense... The schematics I have (which I will admit is > printed in a book, it's not an Intel original, but it does say > 'Reproduced by permission of Intel Corporation') doesn't appear to show > any such links. It just shows 1-transistor buffer stages connected to the > SID and SOD pins. > > Can you point me at a schematic of the SDK85 that does show these > jumpers, please. I agree with you Tony. I have the original schematics that were included with the board (and printed on 11x17 sheets), they match the schematics in the manual for the board, and do not show any RS232 option. There is a section in the book that shows how to wire up a 1488 and 1489 to build such a converter but there is no place on the SDK85 board to do that. They use one of the 1489 receivers as an inverter before driving the TxD out one of the 1488 transmitters. Anyway, probably beating a dead horse against a brick wall now as I have verified the .bin file that Glen sent matches the listing in the manual byte for byte so I have the bits I need. A couple 8755A are in the mail and when I get those, will be good to go. Thanks for the help. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Apr 28 20:00:10 2010 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:00:10 -0400 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies Message-ID: I think we are beyond the beginning. The end of floppies began several years ago when notebook manufacturers no longer built them in. Netbooks the same. Another technology has bitten the dust! It appears if I will have to transfer the data on 100s of floppies unto usb thumb drives. Hopefully they will be around for some time to come. Murray-- From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 29 07:55:58 2010 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:55:58 +0200 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BD981DE.7080706@hachti.de> On 29.04.2010 03:00, Murray McCullough wrote: > I think we are beyond the beginning. The end of floppies began several years > ago when notebook manufacturers no longer built them in. Sounds strange but I stopped using floppies at some time in the late 90s. My PC had a floppy disk drive until approx. 5 years ago. And my notebook usually runs even without CDROM/DVD drive (I have one but I prefer having a battery instead of the drive). And the times when I miss the floppy are VERY rare....! I have many Atari ST floppies - I'd like to have a machine that helps me to automatically photograph, image and shred them... Ok, not the original disks, but all the "stuff". And I have RX02 floppies - of course :-) Regards, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Apr 29 08:41:08 2010 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 06:41:08 -0700 Subject: Anybody need some NSC 800-3I's? In-Reply-To: <4BD8197F.90503@erasmusmc.nl> References: <4BD8197F.90503@erasmusmc.nl> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:18:23 +0200 > From: robbert.stam at erasmusmc.nl > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Anybody need some NSC 800-3I's? > > Hello Chuck, > > Do you still have those NSC800 chips? > I would like to buy them all! > > Robbert Stam > > > > > > > /Mon Jan 23 19:11:42 CST 2006/ > > while back I posted a WTB for some NSC 800 CPU chips and didn't turn ---snip--- Hi This reminds me that someplace in my piles I have a couple of the MA-2000 modules that National made. These never took off. They had a basic CPU module with a NSC800 and some ROM and RAM. The mounted the chips directly on the PC board and a glob of epoxy. The could stack with other modules, like more RAM and other I/O. Kind of like the 103 boards. I'll have to dig them out some time and see if they still work. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 29 10:05:19 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 08:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: <4BD8DBA4.8020505@philpem.me.uk> References: <001b01cae647$a9257030$edfdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BD75994.6060803@dunnington.plus.com> <4BD8DBA4.8020505@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Apr 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Some engravers will engrave plastic keytops. Makes a change from sports >> trophies. > > Hmm. I wonder if any of the local engravers can deal with anodised aluminium > instrument panels... > > Would be a very easy way to get some panels done up for the DiscFerret > prototypes -- use the Dremel to knock out the holes, then have them engraved. > Not sure about cheap though... Phil, a laser engraver will make white lettering on anodized aluminum - it doesn't actually cut the material, just turns it white. I think due to oxidation. A colored anodized aluminum panel looks great when engraved like this. I'll be happy to do some engraving for you in trade for a DiscFerret. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Apr 29 11:53:20 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:53:20 -0400 Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop Message-ID: <69c5976$9a23a10$600d4b20$@com> > ------------------------------ > > > Ok, it's been a few days, but I've finally looked at the /// that > I dug out of my mother's garage during her recent move. It's missing > two keycaps, the two upper rightmost keys from the main keyboard (not > the numeric pad). Not having the caps, and not being able to find a > decent picture in ten seconds of googling, I don't know which keys > they are. > > Anybody gots? > > -Dave ...per: http://vintagecomputer.net/apple/appleIII/apple_III_num2/Apple_III-unit.JPG + | = \ Bill Degnan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 29 11:59:34 2010 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:59:34 -0700 Subject: Low level formatting an Apple Profile hard disk In-Reply-To: <4BD86654.5090301@bitsavers.org> References: <720579.17169.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <157D57BD-3711-45DA-9A0A-7B28D8649BD8@neurotica.com> <4BD86654.5090301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201004290959.34851.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Dave, On Wednesday 28 April 2010, Al Kossow wrote: > On 4/28/10 9:02 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >> I have all the necessary files and images for this. They've been sent > >> to your e-mail account, > > > > Are these generally available anywhere? > Along with Al, I'd like to know where the "files and images" can be found to low level format an Apple Profile for use with a Lisa! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, KF6ZGI Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 29 12:01:01 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:01:01 -0700 Subject: Anybody need some NSC 800-3I's? In-Reply-To: <4BD8197F.90503@erasmusmc.nl> References: <4BD8197F.90503@erasmusmc.nl> Message-ID: <4BD958DD.15566.1EE1B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Apr 2010 at 13:18, R. Stam wrote: > Hello Chuck, > > Do you still have those NSC800 chips? > I would like to buy them all! > > Robbert Stam It's been three years since I offered them, but I may still have a few left. I'll check during the next week or so. --Chuck From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Apr 29 12:01:17 2010 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:01:17 -0400 Subject: Dysan PAT-2+ Performance Alignment Message-ID: <301b17f2$3593b3c2$ae702ee$@com> I recently came upon a Dysan PAT-2+ Performance Alignment Tester and I already had an alignment disk for it - an 8" 48TPI 360 RPM 2 Sided drive - disk 360/2A. Does anyone have a source for additional format disks? Each drive type has its own disk. What's on these disks anyway? My PAT-2 does not power up at the moment, I have to open it up and take a look to see what's the problem. Hopefully it's just a voltage regulator. I checked the web, too many Dyson vaccum cleaner links and non-relevant stuff. Bill Degnan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 29 12:12:01 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:12:01 -0400 Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: <69c5976$9a23a10$600d4b20$@com> References: <69c5976$9a23a10$600d4b20$@com> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2010, at 12:53 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> Ok, it's been a few days, but I've finally looked at the /// that >> I dug out of my mother's garage during her recent move. It's missing >> two keycaps, the two upper rightmost keys from the main keyboard (not >> the numeric pad). Not having the caps, and not being able to find a >> decent picture in ten seconds of googling, I don't know which keys >> they are. >> >> Anybody gots? >> >> -Dave > > ...per: > > http://vintagecomputer.net/apple/appleIII/apple_III_num2/Apple_III- > unit.JPG > > > + | > = \ Ahh, thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Apr 29 12:14:21 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 13:14:21 -0400 Subject: Low level formatting an Apple Profile hard disk In-Reply-To: <201004290959.34851.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <720579.17169.qm@web52608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <157D57BD-3711-45DA-9A0A-7B28D8649BD8@neurotica.com> <4BD86654.5090301@bitsavers.org> <201004290959.34851.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Apr 29, 2010, at 12:59 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: >>>> I have all the necessary files and images for this. They've been >>>> sent >>>> to your e-mail account, >>> >> >> Are these generally available anywhere? > > Along with Al, I'd like to know where the "files and images" can be > found to low level format an Apple Profile for use with a Lisa! That was Steve Hirsch.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cctalk at solivant.com Thu Apr 29 12:54:43 2010 From: cctalk at solivant.com (Geoff Harrison) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:54:43 -0500 Subject: Kenbak-1 on eBay Message-ID: <4BD9C7E3.2050809@solivant.com> Auction id 320522921808 . I've asked the seller to post pictures of the actual machine. From andreww591 at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 13:13:41 2010 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:13:41 -0600 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting In-Reply-To: References: <873844A3-BF18-4924-870F-C71F87128590@centurytel.net> <4BD8FFF1.3010507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BD9CC55.9030907@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > > PSU is probably bad, I'm assuming the power switch itself works and you get > a power LED lit under the LCD? > > Yes, the power LED comes on. I would have thought that nothing would happen if the power supply was bad. Also, my AlphaServer has an extra PSU for redundancy, and disconnecting either one doesn't have any effect. I don't think that the PSUs are the problem. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Apr 29 13:15:42 2010 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 11:15:42 -0700 Subject: Kenbak-1 on eBay In-Reply-To: <4BD9C7E3.2050809@solivant.com> References: <4BD9C7E3.2050809@solivant.com> Message-ID: <004e01cae7c8$024b5f90$06e21eb0$@com> John Blankenbaker and his daughter contacted me about this sale before they posted it so this machine has verified provenance. I'm pretty sure the picture in the auction of John Blankenbaker with the machine is of the system itself. This is the real deal and this auction is going to be fun! :) Anne Killheffer posted to the VC Forums (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?20359-Kenbak-1-on-Eb ay-(original-production-model) ) and I've put a blurb on the homepage (http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/content.php?141-Kenbak-1-on-Ebay-(o riginal-production-model) ) about this sale. Best of luck to anyone who bids! :) ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Harrison Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 10:55 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Kenbak-1 on eBay Auction id 320522921808 . I've asked the seller to post pictures of the actual machine. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 29 13:41:46 2010 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:41:46 +0100 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting In-Reply-To: <4BD9CC55.9030907@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 29/04/2010 19:13, "Andrew Warkentin" wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> PSU is probably bad, I'm assuming the power switch itself works and you get >> a power LED lit under the LCD? >> >> > Yes, the power LED comes on. I would have thought that nothing would > happen if the power supply was bad. Also, my AlphaServer has an extra > PSU for redundancy, and disconnecting either one doesn't have any > effect. I don't think that the PSUs are the problem. Does the floppy drive light come on? I'm wondering if the SROM has gone bad and it needs a Failsafe Load, but I guess before that point you should at least get the POST displaying on the LCD. Do the PSU fans start up? I'm not near a 1000A till tomorrow so I won't mention reseating the CPU module until I know it has a removeable one :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 29 13:12:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:12:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Apr 28, 10 01:51:57 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi > I was thinking about the problem that it would work after > freeze spray=2C until powered on again. That sounds quite likely. There's a routine that's only run on a cold start which detects if there's a termninal connected and runs the appropriate monitor. > It might be that the failing bit was only used during boot > and not needed for the normal monitor operation. > This would then fail on the next reboot. > Just some idle thinking. According to my schematic, there's space for 2 8355/8755 chips on the SDK85 board. One is programmed with the monitor, the other is for expansion (and is normally not fitted. If the OP gets a working 8755 containing the monitor, then it would be interesting to put the flakey one in the expansion socket and try reading it out when cold and warm. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 29 13:20:14 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:20:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <407B689FDDC74204A2CE83DB3C859D31@JIMM> from "Jim MacKenzie" at Apr 28, 10 03:49:38 pm Message-ID: > > But, like B&W photographic print paper, it is possible to still find some > > with enough searching. There don't seem to be any local sources for film > > for my still and movie cameras, other than 35mm color. > > It's around. Good photo stores still sell it (although there are fewer and > fewer such stores). There are also plenty of mail-order establishments who > sell it. Last time I looked (which wasn't that long ago), 35mm film cameras,. 120 roll film cameras and 5*4" sheet film cameras were still being made new. And some of them were not exactly cheap. I suspect anybody who'd bought one of those would expect to still be able to buy the supplies for it :-) Of course used film can't be errased and re-used, but old floppies often can. So the situation for floppies may not be all that bad. > Kodak even announced a new Super-8 movie film earlier this month. That does suprise me. I can understand people using 16mm and 35mm cine film for special purposes. And there are craqy enthusiasts who use standard-8, I guess. But who uses Super 9? > What annoys me about the floppy disk situation is that floppies remain the > only really inexpensive and easily reusable medium out there. CD- and Indeed. They're also the only interchangable storage media I have on most of my sysstems... I am seriously wondering how I will transfer large-ish files to other people in the near future. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 29 13:23:59 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:23:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <20100428150741.U76444@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 28, 10 03:43:51 pm Message-ID: > > > > But, like B&W photographic print paper, it is possible to still find some > > > with enough searching. There don't seem to be any local sources for film > > > for my still and movie cameras, other than 35mm color. > > On Wed, 28 Apr 2010, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > > It's around. Good photo stores still sell it (although there are fewer and > > fewer such stores). There are also plenty of mail-order establishments who > > sell it. > > 8x10 sheet film > 5x7 sheet > 4x5 sheet > 4x5 plates > Polaroid 55 > 3.25x4.25 sheet > 2.25x3.25 sheet > 6x9cm sheet > 9x12cm sheet > 220 roll > 120 roll > 35mm Tessina (need some empties to reload) > 16mm Minolta (need empties) > 16mm cine > REGULAR 8mm cine (actually 16mm with additional perf) > 9.5mm Minox > and a few arcane formats that I no longer use, Alas some of the film formats I use are much harder to find. How about 16mm Narciss cassettes? Or 127 roll film. Or 16mm Yashica cartridges. Or even 126 Kodapack cartridges. > are almost all available, with more searching than is worth the effort. > There USED TO BE some "good" photo stores around here. Ditto. Alas the good ones have all gone like. Like the good electronics shops that I grew up with :-( > I predict availability of "almost disposable" cost flash drives. > OMG, will AOHell start mailing media again? Please show me how to use one of those with an HP41. Or an HP Intragal. Or an Epson PX8. Or for that matter this PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 29 13:30:04 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:30:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BD862DA.16458.1A7E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 28, 10 04:31:22 pm Message-ID: > > On 28 Apr 2010 at 19:01, fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: > > I posted a fairly long list of emulators not too long ago. $275 is > on the high end--the Chinese version of these (which perhaps is the > same as the one you describe) can be had for about $50. It's not > much--just a uC and some "glue". A lot of thise floppy drive emulators make assuptions about the data you are recording -- such as that it's normal MFM data from a PC-like disk controller. Which makes them rather less useful for some classic computers > There are at least two DIY versions on the web. > > But none of the off-the-shelf versions is going to help with my > Brother word processor (uses GCR to put 240K on a 3.5") or a real DEC > RX02 disk (uses DEC's own version of MFM) or an early Lanier word Actually, I suspect the RX01 and RX02 are one of the simpler ones to replace. The icontroller board is in the drvie chassis, and the interface to the bus addapter board (RX8E/RX11/RXV11/RX211/etc) is a TTL-level serial pne, timed by the controller board. It would thus be very easy to bit-bang it on just about any microcontroller. A single chip microcontroller and an SD card could make an RX01/RX02 replacement I think. It's simple enough that I suspect even I could get it to work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 29 13:32:32 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:32:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting In-Reply-To: <4BD8FFF1.3010507@gmail.com> from "Andrew Warkentin" at Apr 28, 10 09:41:37 pm Message-ID: > The strange thing is that it was sitting for a few months, and it worked > fine the previous time I turned it on. I'm going to ask the obvious : Have you vhecked the output voltages from the PSU and the state of the power_OK line (if there is one, I suspect there is)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 29 14:03:07 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:03:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <20100429091152.635964b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Apr 29, 10 09:11:52 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 15:49:38 -0600 > "Jim MacKenzie" wrote: > > > I still use floppies, even on modern systems. > I don't. And I am glad that floppies are gone. > > 3.5" flppies: > > I stoped using floppies about 10 years ago. I was tired of copying the > same data to at least three floppies in the hope that at least one of > the floppies would be readable. At that time it was just impossible to Strange... I've never had such problems with floppies on any of my machines... Of course I (a) use a good name=-brand floppy disk and (b) ensure that my drives are correctly aligned. > get reliable media and drives. Floppies where cheap and unreliable Well, if you will buy cheap-n-nasty drives and disks... > PeeCee junk. It was a bit better in the early 90'is. (When a simple > floppy drive cost two or three times as much as a DVD drive today.) I think I bought my last floppy drive about 15 years ago. It was a name-brand (Teac) and I bought the service manual too. Never had any problems with it... The only real 'stock fault' I've had will floppies has been on the Sony 3.5" full-height drives. As is well knwom, if the eject linkage sticks, the upper head will get ripped off when the disk ejects. Evey such drive that comes through here gets stripped down and cleaned up. Only once did I have to replace the head assembly )I took one from another drive with electronic faults) and amazingily, while I obviously put the alignment disk in, it was spot-on for radial alignment. I didn't have to adjust anything. > 8" flppies where already gone and replaced by 5.25", when I got my > fingers on a computer for the first time. My first floppy drive was a 5.25" one ()on a TRS-80 Model 1). This has not stopped me from obtaing 8" drives since then :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 29 14:05:34 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:05:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BD8D5AE.18946.3686DDB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 29, 10 00:41:18 am Message-ID: > The sector address headers, rather than use CHRN type information, > use 2 bytes to number the sectors on the disk consecutively. > > The odd thing is that on a few floppies, the data (and address > headers) is in the wrong place for that cylinder (e.g., track 3 > contains the same address headers and data as track 9). I'm trying > to figure out if it's the customer's drive or his software (he's > halfway around the world from me). Is it possible that cylinder 3 was marked as defective and replaced by cylinder 9? Or perhaps the frist few cyliders were used to contain the operating system, the uyser data started later and the sectors for that were numbered from 0. -tony From starbase89 at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 14:20:04 2010 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:20:04 -0400 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? Message-ID: 200465382453 If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine -- Joseph Giliberti Jackson, New Jersey From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 14:28:28 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:28:28 -0700 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No kidding. I am amazed at the prices charged (and paid for) for fairly generic 80386, 386SX and other lower-end PCs. Mark On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 12:20 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > 200465382453 > > If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine > > -- > Joseph Giliberti > Jackson, New Jersey > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 14:34:10 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:34:10 -0400 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > 200465382453 > > If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20 because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work without it. I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory, especially with a VLB disk controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world. Yes, the Pentium was out before 1995, but it was at the time a high-end technology. I was still installing WfW 3.11 on 486s w/200MB of disk and 16MB or less of RAM right up to the introduction of Windows95. After Windows95 came out, the demand for that class of machine waned considerably. -ethan From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 14:39:38 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:39:38 -0700 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: >> 200465382453 >> >> If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine > > I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger > enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with > virtualization). ?I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20 > because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work > without it. > > I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory, especially with a VLB disk > controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very > nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world. > Yes, the Pentium was out before 1995, but it was at the time a > high-end technology. ?I was still installing WfW 3.11 on 486s w/200MB > of disk and 16MB or less of RAM right up to the introduction of > Windows95. > > After Windows95 came out, the demand for that class of machine waned > considerably. > > -ethan > Well, I'm probably going to be looking for a 386-based machine at some point. I own several distributions of Xenix and Unix for the 80386 and I'd like a real machine to run them on. I even want to find an 80286-based machine for a copy of Xenix-286 that I have. I've got a machine out in the garage but I haven't had a chance to see what shape it's in. I'll probably do that this weekend. I also have an IBM 300GL (Pentium II-based system) that I was hoping to set up with OS/2, but last weekend's attempt to bring it up after several years in storage were for naught. It can't see the hard drive (which seems to be ok), so that's another tear-apart and rebuild for the to-do list. :) Mark From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 29 14:41:59 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Apr 29, 10 03:34:10 pm" Message-ID: <201004291941.o3TJfx02016030@floodgap.com> > I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory, especially with a VLB disk > controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very > nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world. I keep a legacy ISA 5x86/133 around with a 16-bit SB and VLB video for DOS games I haven't yet found Mac equivalents for, although I have managed to collect many Mac ports of my favourite old games. Particularly for older titles such as id's original 2D platformer engines, they won't work at all on PCI motherboards (Bio Menace comes to mind). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away. ------------------ From lists at softpres.org Thu Apr 29 15:05:35 2010 From: lists at softpres.org (Kieron Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:05:35 +0100 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BD862DA.16458.1A7E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <8CCB53DD1877FB7-15CC-5BD0@webmail-d063.sysops.aol.com> <4BD862DA.16458.1A7E0E0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0314C9E3-2A08-4995-BFB4-F8C59CADAA1E@softpres.org> On 29 Apr 2010, at 00:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There are at least two DIY versions on the web. Have you seen HxC? http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html > And no one, that I'm aware of, claims to be able to handle copy- > protection emulation. It seems to, according to the site: - MFM, FM and GCR compatible (can handle custom encoding). - Bitrate between 63Kbits/s and 1MBits/s.(250 differents bitrates by step of 62.5ns). - Variable bitrate, flakey bits and long tracks, custom tracks support (emulating of copy protected floppies). - Can emulate floppies up to 128 tracks. Pretty neat at 60 GBP. You need to pre-order it though. Kieron From trag at io.com Thu Apr 29 15:10:24 2010 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:10:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for an Apple /// keytop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5bd01c9e2da2b7c163cf1842a191a785.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 04:15:28 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mr Ian Primus >> I thought I could use the key switches (from the IIe) on >> Mac Plus keyboards, but they're a little too different. > > Actually, you can... Many years ago, the first original Macintosh that I > owned had several dead keys. I replaced the faulty keyswitches with ones > from a junked IIe keyboard. The only difference was the pin spacing - I > simply drilled holes in the circuit board to allow the pins from the IIe > keyswitch to pass through, then soldered jumper wires back to the proper > traces. Ah, good to know. Thank you! Jeff Walther From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 29 16:12:44 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:12:44 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <0314C9E3-2A08-4995-BFB4-F8C59CADAA1E@softpres.org> References: , <4BD862DA.16458.1A7E0E0@cclist.sydex.com>, <0314C9E3-2A08-4995-BFB4-F8C59CADAA1E@softpres.org> Message-ID: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2010 at 21:05, Kieron Wilkinson wrote: > > On 29 Apr 2010, at 00:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > There are at least two DIY versions on the web. > > Have you seen HxC? > http://hxc2001.free.fr/floppy_drive_emulator/index.html Yes, I believe I posted a link to it. But understand, that it's not a "know nothing about the floppy, just stick this thing in and go" type of device. Software must be coded to accomodate the recording method and organization that you're using. I have to laugh when people use the term "GCR" as if it were a standard. My response is usually "whose GCR?". Personally (and professionally), I'm less concerned about emulating floppies than retrieving data from them and allowing people to move on. The world in general seems to have been pretty successful in weaning itself away from 556 BPI 7-track 1/2" tape, after all. There is a lot of data still residing on obsolete and obsolescent media. The great part is that once the world migrates from one obsolete medium, there's always another to be declared obsolete. So when will mechanical hard drives be on the chopping block? If you think about it, they're really a backward technology, with moving parts and hungry power consumption. I had a potential customer who wanted to replace an old AMD multibus floppy controller board with a modern version that would support high- density 3.5' floppies, needed to boot his system, but not otherwise used to hold working data, I tried to point out to him that it would be far simpler to employ an EEPROM with the needed data. He would have none of it. He also specified that all parts had to be through-hole and socketed. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 29 16:15:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:15:34 -0700 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BD8D5AE.18946.3686DDB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 29, 10 00:41:18 am, Message-ID: <4BD99486.17627.107F0AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2010 at 20:05, Tony Duell wrote: > Is it possible that cylinder 3 was marked as defective and replaced by > cylinder 9? Or perhaps the frist few cyliders were used to contain the > operating system, the uyser data started later and the sectors for > that were numbered from 0. No, the sector addressing starts from 0 for the first sector in all cases. The addresses, in the example, for cylinder 3 are simply missing entirely--and the files that reside on that cylinder do not match what the directory says they are. It seems to be either a hardware or software glitch. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 29 16:20:59 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:20:59 -0700 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4BD995CB.15549.10CE5E4@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2010 at 15:34, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger > enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with > virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20 > because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work > without it. As far as I know, DOS will run on almost any x86 PC, pre-Pentium or not. The main difference to me is that the older systems are slower and generally have more ISA slots. Some software has CPU timing loops, and that may make a difference, however. Games written for a 5150 set running on 3GHz PC can be a bit more--ah, challenging. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 29 16:24:21 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:24:21 -0700 Subject: Continued: Edge connector refurbing Message-ID: <4BD99695.6735.10FF806@cclist.sydex.com> Awhile back, there was a question about refurbishing worn plated card edge connector contacts. I thought I'd post a link to an outfit that sells plating pens for just such an application: http://www.hunterproducts.com/ --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Apr 29 16:28:43 2010 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:28:43 -0600 Subject: Anyone pick up the Manx ball yet? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 24 Apr 2010 22:25:04 +0200. Message-ID: manx is now a project on codeplex: You can monitor status, suggest ideas, and download code (whatever there is/will be) from there. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Apr 29 16:31:22 2010 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: <4BD995CB.15549.10CE5E4@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BD995CB.15549.10CE5E4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Apr 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Apr 2010 at 15:34, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger >> enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with >> virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20 >> because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work >> without it. > > As far as I know, DOS will run on almost any x86 PC, pre-Pentium or > not. The main difference to me is that the older systems are slower > and generally have more ISA slots. > > Some software has CPU timing loops, and that may make a difference, > however. Games written for a 5150 set running on 3GHz PC can be a > bit more--ah, challenging. > You haven't lived until you've tried to play Bouncing Babies (CGA!) on a 2Ghz machine. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 16:42:39 2010 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:42:39 -0400 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: <4BD995CB.15549.10CE5E4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4BD995CB.15549.10CE5E4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 5:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Apr 2010 at 15:34, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger >> enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal... > > As far as I know, DOS will run on almost any x86 PC, pre-Pentium or > not. Yes. I haven't tried DOS on a Pentium4, but the problems I would expect to see there are related to poor or non-existent BIOS and hardware support for multiple floppy drives or drives other than "1.44MB" capacities. Sound-based applications might have problems with IRQs and PCI-only machines - that was a pain point at the ISA->PCI changeover. > ?The main difference to me is that the older systems are slower > and generally have more ISA slots. Or more specifically, _have_ ISA slots. I have a motherboard (Asus A7V) that's 10 years old and has only 5 PCI and an AGP. > Some software has CPU timing loops, and that may make a difference, > however. Quite, but most of that was purged from the market when machines started getting faster than about 16MHz. For 286s and 386s, there was the "Turbo" button. I don't recall many 486s having an active Turbo switch, and I don't remember seeing any Pentium systems that could be slowed down that easily (though you could disable cache and pump up wait-states and such in the BIOS). > ?Games written for a 5150 set running on 3GHz PC can be a > bit more--ah, challenging. Indeed. The first job I had was at the place that wrote "Wordvision", a word processor for the PC (my job was to write the C-64 demo for Comdex). Wordvision was written for a 5150 with 256MB or more, one floppy drive or more, and DOS 1.0 "or better". It used timing loops for key repeat. Someone came along after the company folded and wrote a patch to let Wordvision run sanely on a 386. I think they just adjusted the timing parameter to match the measured speed of the target machine so that key repeat "worked as expected". -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Apr 29 16:54:07 2010 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 14:54:07 -0700 Subject: Kenbak-1 Message-ID: <4BD9FFFF.4090402@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320522921808 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 29 16:19:05 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 22:19:05 +0100 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <64153F00-A376-48D3-B1A4-2CCCDB5C4261@softpres.org> Message-ID: <007201cae7e6$fe9ae9a0$2ffdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Perhaps someone (no I'm *not* volunteering!) should look in to documenting how floppy discs are made? I have a general idea, but how they actually make and coat the media should be preserved for future generations now, before it gets forgotten. For example, how do they attach the metal slider with that tiny spring inside? In 10 (or 20) years that sort of information would probably be lost or very hard to find. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kieron Wilkinson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:04 PM Subject: Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > > I assume these guys are still in business, and they seem to still > produce 3.5, 5.25 and 8" floppies. > http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html > > I've not ordered from them, so that is not a personal recommendation, > but I guess there will be demand for a good while yet. > > > > On 28 Apr 2010, at 07:48, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > There should be plenty around (unused) for people who still need > > them for a decade if not more. > > > > When were 5.25" DD disks discontinued? You can still find them cheap > > on ebay from time to time. > > > > I have never used a 8" floppy disk but they are still available. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "joe lobocki" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 7:00 AM > > Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies > > > > > >> Well, as of yesterday, Sony is planning to stop production of > >> floppy disks. > >> Apparently, other companies will still make them, but I'm sure its > >> only a > >> matter of time.... > >> http://www.crn.com/storage/224600457;jsessionid=GTMHM30DE1HQBQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN > > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 29 16:23:30 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 22:23:30 +0100 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies References: <4BD88821.5020101@snarc.net> Message-ID: <007301cae7e7$006d1190$2ffdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:47 PM Subject: Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > 2010/4/28 Evan Koblentz : > > > >> Well, as of yesterday, Sony is planning to stop production of floppy > >> disks. Apparently, other companies will still make them, but I'm sure its > >> only a matter of time.... > >> > >> http://www.crn.com/storage/224600457;jsessionid=GTMHM30DE1HQBQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN > >> > > The "beginning of the end" for floppies happened a long time ago. > > Like when Apple stopped including a floppy drive in iMacs (remember > all the screaming in PC quarters about how they were still important?) > > Personally, in the past 8 years, I've only used floppies at work for > BIOS upgrades. Prior to that, it was for Linux and Win98 installs > where I couldn't boot a CD-ROM directly. > Well, we use floppy disks all the time at work to transfer data (10KB's maximum) from an instrument computer to the another one hooked up to our internal network. We do have USB sticks (aka thumb drives), but not many people are comfortable using them and our version of windows (XP) has the "first time refusal" glitch too. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 29 17:10:15 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:10:15 -0700 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: References: , <4BD995CB.15549.10CE5E4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4BD9A157.25168.13A0141@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2010 at 17:42, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Or more specifically, _have_ ISA slots. I have a motherboard (Asus > A7V) that's 10 years old and has only 5 PCI and an AGP. ISA motherboards are still around--and pricey. Soyo made/makes a Socket 478 P4 board with 3 ISA slots. I tend to hang onto PIII motherboards with more than one ISA slot. Most are Slot 1 types and I've had lousy results upgrading them with Slotkets. > Quite, but most of that was purged from the market when machines > started getting faster than about 16MHz. For 286s and 386s, there was > the "Turbo" button. I don't recall many 486s having an active Turbo > switch, and I don't remember seeing any Pentium systems that could be > slowed down that easily (though you could disable cache and pump up > wait-states and such in the BIOS). I've got P1 and 486 boards with turbo switch and LED headers, though I'm not certain what effect they have, other than illuminating or extinguishing the Turbo LED. One nice aspect of the ISA bus is that it's simple to interface to and write DOS drivers for. PCI is not nearly so nice and USB on DOS is a real pain. Windows/Linux usually requires a fair amount of work in the driver department. So I keep a stock of ISA prototyping boards around. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Apr 29 17:12:34 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 15:12:34 -0700 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <007201cae7e6$fe9ae9a0$2ffdf93e@user8459cef6fa> References: , <007201cae7e6$fe9ae9a0$2ffdf93e@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4BD9A1E2.8871.13C1CFC@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Apr 2010 at 22:19, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Perhaps someone (no I'm *not* volunteering!) should look in to > documenting how floppy discs are made? I have a general idea, but how > they actually make and coat the media should be preserved for future > generations now, before it gets forgotten. For example, how do they > attach the metal slider with that tiny spring inside? In 10 (or 20) > years that sort of information would probably be lost or very hard to > find. I ascribe the decline in floppy media at least in part to a similar decline in consumer video tape, mostly VHS. ISTR that 360K 5.25" floppies use approximately the same coating formulation and thickness as VHS tape. Instead of cutting the substrate into long strips, you cut it into round "cookies'. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 29 18:07:03 2010 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:07:03 -0600 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BD9A1E2.8871.13C1CFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <007201cae7e6$fe9ae9a0$2ffdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BD9A1E2.8871.13C1CFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BDA1117.9030906@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Apr 2010 at 22:19, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> >> Perhaps someone (no I'm *not* volunteering!) should look in to >> documenting how floppy discs are made? I have a general idea, but how >> they actually make and coat the media should be preserved for future >> generations now, before it gets forgotten. For example, how do they >> attach the metal slider with that tiny spring inside? In 10 (or 20) >> years that sort of information would probably be lost or very hard to >> find. > > I ascribe the decline in floppy media at least in part to a similar > decline in consumer video tape, mostly VHS. ISTR that 360K 5.25" > floppies use approximately the same coating formulation and thickness > as VHS tape. Instead of cutting the substrate into long strips, you > cut it into round "cookies'. Hey, the demise of DVD's is the real pain in the butt, today. How long will it be until we have too upgrade, to another video product after that? > --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Apr 29 18:25:46 2010 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:25:46 -0400 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BDA157A.3010607@atarimuseum.com> You ever wonder if someone in Intel's marketing purposefully gave the "486" the 486SX name - knowing it really meant SUX - cause those SX chips were such dogs!!! ;-) Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > >> 200465382453 >> >> If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine >> > > I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger > enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with > virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20 > because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work > without it. > > I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory, especially with a VLB disk > controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very > nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world. > Yes, the Pentium was out before 1995, but it was at the time a > high-end technology. I was still installing WfW 3.11 on 486s w/200MB > of disk and 16MB or less of RAM right up to the introduction of > Windows95. > > After Windows95 came out, the demand for that class of machine waned > considerably. > > -ethan > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Apr 29 19:19:04 2010 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 01:19:04 +0100 Subject: A huge chunk of Gopherspace up for download Message-ID: <4BDA21F8.80007@philpem.me.uk> Saw this mentioned on Slashdot a minute ago and thought of you guys: "Cory Doctorow tells us that '[i]n 2007, John Goerzen scraped every gopher site he could find (gopher was a menu-driven text-only precursor to the Web; I got my first online gig programming gopher sites). He saved 780,000 documents, totalling 40GB. Today, most of this is offline, so he's making the entire archive available as a .torrent file; the compressed data is only 15GB. Wanna host the entire history of a medium? Here's your chance!' Get yourself a piece of pre-Internet history (torrent)." Figured someone (or several someones) around here might be interested in this... :) Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 29 19:22:17 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:22:17 -0500 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BDA22B9.3040404@oldskool.org> On 4/29/2010 2:20 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine I find it odd that it's that high with the drive not working, but there are people for whom a 486 allows them to play their favorite games again with authentic experience preserved. The state of DOSBOX emulation is very very good, but sometimes you just can't get the ambiance back unless you use the real thing. I know it may seem odd to talk about a wintel box as having unique ambiance, but if it's what you grew up with, it does. I try to tell people why playing Wizardry on a real Apple with floppies is better than emulation -- for example, when the disk drive started seeking oddly when you entered a room, your heart raced because that indicated a larger or more uncommon party of monsters than usual. The clack of the keyboard, visible scanlines on the screen, the pace of the game, etc. are usually best with the real thing. If a 486 was that to some person, they may want it back. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 29 19:24:40 2010 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:24:40 -0500 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: <4BD995CB.15549.10CE5E4@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BD995CB.15549.10CE5E4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4BDA2348.5060008@oldskool.org> On 4/29/2010 4:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Some software has CPU timing loops, and that may make a difference, > however. Games written for a 5150 set running on 3GHz PC can be a > bit more--ah, challenging. It depends on the game, of course. Alley Cat used the timer for all pacing calculations, so it runs perfectly on any PC. I ran it on a bootable (USB) floppy on my 3GHZ Core i7 for a friend to prove it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 29 19:25:44 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A huge chunk of Gopherspace up for download In-Reply-To: <4BDA21F8.80007@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Apr 30, 10 01:19:04 am" Message-ID: <201004300025.o3U0PiSX018280@floodgap.com> > Figured someone (or several someones) around here might be interested in > this... :) Some of us maintain such servers now ;-) gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/ Also, Mozilla bug 562320. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy. -- Samuel Butler ---------------- From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 19:50:05 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:50:05 -0500 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: <4BDA22B9.3040404@oldskool.org> References: <4BDA22B9.3040404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 7:22 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > for example, when the disk drive started seeking oddly when you entered a > room, your heart raced because that indicated a larger or more uncommon > party of monsters than usual. ?The clack of the keyboard, visible scanlines Or on my C64, it meant the game was about to crash, with the same cardiovascular effect. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 21:38:14 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:38:14 -0500 Subject: A huge chunk of Gopherspace up for download In-Reply-To: <4BDA21F8.80007@philpem.me.uk> References: <4BDA21F8.80007@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > "Cory Doctorow tells us that '[i]n 2007, John Goerzen scraped every gopher > site he could find (gopher was a menu-driven text-only precursor to the Web; > I got my first online gig programming gopher sites). He saved 780,000 > documents, totalling 40GB. Today, most of this is offline, so he's making That's heroic and all, but how is a 2007 gophergrab(tm) at all representative? I'm surprised there was anything at all left at that point (aside from retro-sites.) From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 29 21:41:35 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A huge chunk of Gopherspace up for download In-Reply-To: from Jason T at "Apr 29, 10 09:38:14 pm" Message-ID: <201004300241.o3U2fZJ9016386@floodgap.com> > > "Cory Doctorow tells us that '[i]n 2007, John Goerzen scraped every gopher > > site he could find (gopher was a menu-driven text-only precursor to the Web; > > I got my first online gig programming gopher sites). He saved 780,000 > > documents, totalling 40GB. Today, most of this is offline, so he's making > > That's heroic and all, but how is a 2007 gophergrab(tm) at all > representative? I'm surprised there was anything at all left at that > point (aside from retro-sites.) Actually, there were still some larger academic sites still up then. I archived a few myself (userserve.ucsd.edu was particularly nostalgic for me since it was a little SE/30 with a big disk in AP&M, and I managed to archive it before it was decommissioned -- I used it as an undergrad). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Seen on hand dryer: "Push button for a message from your congressman." ----- From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 21:51:59 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 21:51:59 -0500 Subject: A huge chunk of Gopherspace up for download In-Reply-To: <201004300241.o3U2fZJ9016386@floodgap.com> References: <201004300241.o3U2fZJ9016386@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Actually, there were still some larger academic sites still up then. I > archived a few myself (userserve.ucsd.edu was particularly nostalgic for > me since it was a little SE/30 with a big disk in AP&M, and I managed to > archive it before it was decommissioned -- I used it as an undergrad). Well, that's cool then, and I'll definitely be grabbing the torrent. I just wish someone had done this is 1997 instead of 10 years later! From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 29 22:10:44 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A huge chunk of Gopherspace up for download In-Reply-To: from Jason T at "Apr 29, 10 09:51:59 pm" Message-ID: <201004300310.o3U3AjA6011356@floodgap.com> > > Actually, there were still some larger academic sites still up then. I > > archived a few myself (userserve.ucsd.edu was particularly nostalgic for > > me since it was a little SE/30 with a big disk in AP&M, and I managed to > > archive it before it was decommissioned -- I used it as an undergrad). > > Well, that's cool then, and I'll definitely be grabbing the torrent. > I just wish someone had done this is 1997 instead of 10 years later! On that we are agreed! (gopher.ptloma.edu, FTR, didn't come online until 1998 -- which is now gopher.floodgap.com) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I would like to achieve [immortality] by not dying. -- Woody Allen --------- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Apr 29 22:40:39 2010 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A huge chunk of Gopherspace up for download In-Reply-To: <201004300241.o3U2fZJ9016386@floodgap.com> References: <201004300241.o3U2fZJ9016386@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Apr 2010, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> "Cory Doctorow tells us that '[i]n 2007, John Goerzen scraped every gopher >>> site he could find (gopher was a menu-driven text-only precursor to the Web; >>> I got my first online gig programming gopher sites). He saved 780,000 >>> documents, totalling 40GB. Today, most of this is offline, so he's making >> >> That's heroic and all, but how is a 2007 gophergrab(tm) at all >> representative? I'm surprised there was anything at all left at that >> point (aside from retro-sites.) > > Actually, there were still some larger academic sites still up then. I > archived a few myself (userserve.ucsd.edu was particularly nostalgic for > me since it was a little SE/30 with a big disk in AP&M, and I managed to > archive it before it was decommissioned -- I used it as an undergrad). That reminds me of my efforts to preserve the contents of a BBS in the tail end of the BBS era. I managed to archive the contents of Da Warren of Bakersfield California shortly before the owner left for college. Part of it can be seen at http://www.crummy.com/warren/. It was a source of much silliness. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Apr 29 22:52:24 2010 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 23:52:24 -0400 Subject: Identify RS232 loopback? plugs Message-ID: <4BDA53F8.9060907@hawkmountain.net> I have 2 different loopback? plugs... both made by T-BAR 565-980-2 is DB25M with wiring (on the visible circuit side): 2-3 4-5 6-20 8-23 11-15 12-21 14-16 565-980-3 is DB25F with wiring (on the visible circuit side): 13-19-22 17-24 There are traces on the top of the PCB as well, but the DB25 connector is covering them, so they'd have to be discovered via a multimeter.... I haven't found any t-bar information by those #s on line.... And they don't match a few different RS232 loopback plug wiring diagrams I found online... Anyone have a clue what these are ? Thanks, -- Curt From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 30 02:17:39 2010 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:17:39 +0200 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <20100429091152.635964b0.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20100430091739.df578875.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:03:07 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I think I bought my last floppy drive about 15 years ago. It was a > name-brand (Teac) and I bought the service manual too. Never had any > problems with it... So surprise. In 1995 floppy drives still had a quite good quality. But they went down the hill in the late 90'is. > > 8" flppies where already gone and replaced by 5.25", when I got my > > fingers on a computer for the first time. > My first floppy drive was a 5.25" one ()on a TRS-80 Model 1). This has > not stopped me from obtaing 8" drives since then :-) Well. In the meantime I got two 8" drives and media too, but never used them. I even wrote a driver for the RX02 8" floppy for NetBSD/VAX. Though, I wrote that driver with a 5.25" drive connected to a third party controler that emulates a RX02. I don't own a real RX02. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 04:22:06 2010 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 06:22:06 -0300 Subject: Help Forwarding a pair of boards References: <56b376986cfdfd09711cd897bb6d372f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com><003b01cae736$406c9ab0$b35775bb@portajara> Message-ID: <00bc01cae846$d0f4a850$13a160bd@portajara> Dave, please pvt me, I need your address! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" <> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:14 AM Subject: Re: Help Forwarding a pair of boards > On Apr 28, 2010, at 8:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I got on ebay a pair of boards I was looking for my logic analyzer. >> Unfortunately the seller doesn't send them to Brasil. >> >> Is there a friend who could forward these boards for me? Of course >> you can open up the packet and inspect the contents. Of course, I pay >> for your time. >> >> Thanks a lot!!! I;m crazy for these boards > > The paperwork of international shipping sucks, but I think I still owe > you some WD33C93 chips anyway, don't I? I can send those boards to you > if you haven't solved this problem yet. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From chrise at pobox.com Thu Apr 29 10:44:12 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:44:12 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: References: <4BD762AB.8060400@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20100429154412.GF6367@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (04/28/2010 at 01:51PM -0700), dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I was thinking about the problem that it would work after > freeze spray, until powered on again. > It might be that the failing bit was only used during boot > and not needed for the normal monitor operation. > This would then fail on the next reboot. > Just some idle thinking. Yes... that makes good sense Dwight. Some marginal bits in the initialization code or some such. Scoping the bus does seem to indicate that it is more software related... ie, I am not seeing weird levels or signs that outputs are driving outputs or unable to drive full swing. It just seems to run a little and then stop when it is not frozen. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Thu Apr 29 10:49:38 2010 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:49:38 -0500 Subject: i8355 from SDK-85 flakey In-Reply-To: <4BD8CAB0.50CB8075@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20100425002239.GH2587@n0jcf.net> <002901cae543$6ce00270$46a00750$@net> <4BD8CAB0.50CB8075@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20100429154938.GG6367@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (04/28/2010 at 04:54PM -0700), Brent Hilpert wrote: > > As it turned out, a junction-FET had developed a sensitivity to changes in the > nearby electrostatic or electromagnetic field, or to stray photons: the > "+"-polarity indicator in the display was a neon lamp located within a few > millimetres of the FET, when the lamp switched on the FET would trigger into a > latch-up state. (Accessing the unit for service moved the neon lamp a couple of > centimetres away from the FET, which explained why it didn't fail then.) Wow. Cool and crazy frusterating :-) > So, all in the realm of speculation, but marginal or spurious semiconductor > junctions can do funny things, like exhibiting weird latch-up behaviour. Indeed. Once I get the SDK85 back running like it should, perhaps I'll poke around on the 8355 a bit and see if I can't find some clues. I don't really have tools to do any serious analysis but I can do things like vary the supply voltage, clock rate, etc-- a number of external things-- and see if there are any margins over which it will work again. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 17:19:55 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:19:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting In-Reply-To: <4BD8FFF1.3010507@gmail.com> References: <873844A3-BF18-4924-870F-C71F87128590@centurytel.net> <4BD8FFF1.3010507@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Apr 2010, Andrew Warkentin wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> There's every chance the LCD is hosed, do you get anything out of a console >> connection? From what I remember the A1000A doesn't beep on successful >> POST, >> first machine to do that was the DS20. >> >> > No, nothing comes up on the display. > > The strange thing is that it was sitting for a few months, and it worked fine > the previous time I turned it on. Some workstations will refuse to boot if the CMOS battery is flat. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Apr 29 17:22:17 2010 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:22:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Apr 2010, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: >> 200465382453 >> >> If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine > > I'm starting to see some interest in pre-Pentium systems from younger > enthusiasts who want to fiddle with DOS on bare metal (not with > virtualization). I was helping someone just last week with a 386DX20 > because he has no cache and didn't know that a board could work > without it. > > I'd consider a 486DX2/66 w/4MB of memory, especially with a VLB disk > controller and VLB video card plus a 16-bit Sound Blaster to be a very > nice platform for exploring the pre-1995 commodity computing world. > Yes, the Pentium was out before 1995, but it was at the time a > high-end technology. I was still installing WfW 3.11 on 486s w/200MB > of disk and 16MB or less of RAM right up to the introduction of > Windows95. The huge spasm of recycle-mania over the past ten years has all but eliminated the once-plentiful 486 machines. Best thing that ever happened to eBay :-). Steve -- From pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie Fri Apr 30 05:29:05 2010 From: pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:29:05 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting Message-ID: <01NMK73Q0LXEQ3YGA3@vms.eurokom.ie> pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (ORCPT pcoghlan+2Bcctech at vms.eurokom.ie); Thu, Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >> I have an AlphaServer 1000A 4/266 that is not booting. When I power it up, >> nothing shows up on the control panel LCD and there are no beep codes. I >> know that the motherboard is receiving power because the "link active" light >> on the Ethernet adapter comes on. Is there anything that I can do to fix it, >> or should I just try to find another Alpha (I don't seem to have much luck >> with Alphas - I have a DEC 3000/300X with a bad RAM slot). >> > > >There's every chance the LCD is hosed, do you get anything out of a console >connection? From what I remember the A1000A doesn't beep on successful POST, >first machine to do that was the DS20. > My AlphaServer 1000A 5/333 and 5/400 both beep during or after the POST. > >The strange thing is that it was sitting for a few months, and it worked >fine the previous time I turned it on. > I also have a number of DEC machines that failed after sitting for a few months. I posted about them around the time of the "Leaving computers on..." thread about a month ago but I never saw my mail make it to the list for some reason. > >Does the floppy drive light come on? I'm wondering if the SROM has gone bad >and it needs a Failsafe Load, but I guess before that point you should at >least get the POST displaying on the LCD. Do the PSU fans start up? I'm not >near a 1000A till tomorrow so I won't mention reseating the CPU module until >I know it has a removeable one :) > The CPU module is removable and I have had trouble with one of my machines fixed by reseating it. However, the symptoms were different - there was activity on the display and there were beeps giving error codes. I have also had a problem with a failed Bcache on the CPU module (it seems this can be a weak point on the AS1000A) and I had memory failures. However, neither stopped the POST displaying on the LCD nor the graphics console from working. I would suggest reseating the CPU module and removing any PCI cards present. (I have an Alphaserver 800 which became a complete brick while a combination of PCI cards were present that it didn't like.) If there are any EISA cards present, I would leave them in place because there may be issues with the config utility that has to be run when the EISA bus configuration is modified. Other than that, I suggest trying the system with just the bare essentials present and seeing what happens. It would be useful to know if the fans start. Fan problems on some alphas cause the whole thing to shut down. Also, there is an interlock microswitch to prevent power up when the cover is open. This is probably not the problem here though as the symptoms are as if the front panel power switch is off. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Apr 30 06:07:05 2010 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:07:05 +0200 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100430110705.GA18775@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 03:20:04PM -0400, Joe Giliberti wrote: > 200465382453 > > If this is representative of the market for 486s, my basement is a gold mine I see several original floppies in that auction. Could it bee that original Microsoft Windows and Mortal Kombat helped raise the price? /P From pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie Fri Apr 30 06:50:14 2010 From: pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 12:50:14 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: AlphaServer 1000A not booting Message-ID: <01NMK73Q0LXEQ3YGA4@vms.eurokom.ie> > >> I have an AlphaServer 1000A 4/266 that is not booting. When I power it up, >> nothing shows up on the control panel LCD and there are no beep codes. I >> know that the motherboard is receiving power because the "link active" light >> on the Ethernet adapter comes on. Is there anything that I can do to fix it, >> or should I just try to find another Alpha (I don't seem to have much luck >> with Alphas - I have a DEC 3000/300X with a bad RAM slot). >> > > >There's every chance the LCD is hosed, do you get anything out of a console >connection? From what I remember the A1000A doesn't beep on successful POST, >first machine to do that was the DS20. > My AlphaServer 1000A 5/333 and 5/400 both beep during or after the POST. > >The strange thing is that it was sitting for a few months, and it worked >fine the previous time I turned it on. > I also have a number of DEC machines that failed after sitting for a few months. I posted about them around the time of the "Leaving computers on..." thread about a month ago but I never saw my mail make it to the list for some reason. > >Does the floppy drive light come on? I'm wondering if the SROM has gone bad >and it needs a Failsafe Load, but I guess before that point you should at >least get the POST displaying on the LCD. Do the PSU fans start up? I'm not >near a 1000A till tomorrow so I won't mention reseating the CPU module until >I know it has a removeable one :) > The CPU module is removable and I have had trouble with one of my machines fixed by reseating it. However, the symptoms were different - there was activity on the display and there were beeps giving error codes. I have also had a problem with a failed Bcache on the CPU module (it seems this can be a weak point on the AS1000A) and I had memory failures. However, neither stopped the POST displaying on the LCD nor the graphics console from working. I would suggest reseating the CPU module and removing any PCI cards present. (I have an Alphaserver 800 which became a complete brick while a combination of PCI cards were present that it didn't like.) If there are any EISA cards present, I would leave them in place because there may be issues with the config utility that has to be run when the EISA bus configuration is modified. Other than that, I suggest trying the system with just the bare essentials present and seeing what happens. It would be useful to know if the fans start. Fan problems on some alphas cause the whole thing to shut down. Also, there is an interlock microswitch to prevent power up when the cover is open. This is probably not the problem here though as the symptoms are as if the front panel power switch is off. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jim at photojim.ca Fri Apr 30 11:07:56 2010 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 10:07:56 -0600 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? References: Message-ID: <8ECE5B19277140B0A4A80D6CD2246D12@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Davidson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 1:39 PM Subject: Re: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? Well, I'm probably going to be looking for a 386-based machine at some point. I own several distributions of Xenix and Unix for the 80386 and I'd like a real machine to run them on. === I actually still have a running 486 (IBM PS/ValuPoint, 32 MB RAM, named canberra). In fact I just built a new kernel for it this week since Debian Squeeze wanted some different flags than my existing custom kernel, and the stock Debian kernel doesn't work (no floating-point math support? My 486 is an SX). I don't know why I keep it running, but it's rock-solid reliable so I'd feel bad about getting rid of it. It was my first *nix machine. Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Apr 30 11:18:23 2010 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 12:18:23 -0400 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: <8ECE5B19277140B0A4A80D6CD2246D12@JIMM> References: <8ECE5B19277140B0A4A80D6CD2246D12@JIMM> Message-ID: <91D64D51-26DF-4D60-9F2A-8F865BBB1E23@neurotica.com> On Apr 30, 2010, at 12:07 PM, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > I actually still have a running 486 (IBM PS/ValuPoint, 32 MB RAM, > named canberra). In fact I just built a new kernel for it this > week since Debian Squeeze wanted some different flags than my > existing custom kernel, and the stock Debian kernel doesn't work > (no floating-point math support? My 486 is an SX). > > I don't know why I keep it running, but it's rock-solid reliable so > I'd feel bad about getting rid of it. It was my first *nix machine. THAT'S why you keep it running. Sounds good to me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 30 11:21:04 2010 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: <91D64D51-26DF-4D60-9F2A-8F865BBB1E23@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Apr 30, 10 12:18:23 pm" Message-ID: <201004301621.o3UGL4L5012606@floodgap.com> > > I don't know why I keep it running, but it's rock-solid reliable so > > I'd feel bad about getting rid of it. It was my first *nix machine. > > THAT'S why you keep it running. Sounds good to me. That's why I'll never give up my Apple Network Server, even when I go to POWER7. Well, that and it's a pretty interesting box. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- PowerPC inside! ------------------------------------------------------------ From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 11:25:16 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:25:16 -0700 Subject: a generic 486 system bid up to $105? In-Reply-To: <201004301621.o3UGL4L5012606@floodgap.com> References: <91D64D51-26DF-4D60-9F2A-8F865BBB1E23@neurotica.com> <201004301621.o3UGL4L5012606@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 9:21 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > I don't know why I keep it running, but it's rock-solid reliable so >> > I'd feel bad about getting rid of it. ?It was my first *nix machine. >> >> ? ?THAT'S why you keep it running. ?Sounds good to me. > > That's why I'll never give up my Apple Network Server, even when I go to > POWER7. Well, that and it's a pretty interesting box. Aargh... don't remind me. Even though it would not be able to do much, I actually miss my first Unix box... an IBM PC/XT running PC/ix. I have been searching for YEARS to find another copy of PC/ix, to no avail. Mark From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 30 11:45:31 2010 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 09:45:31 -0700 Subject: Identify RS232 loopback? plugs References: <4BDA53F8.9060907@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4BDB092B.E16FB8C8@cs.ubc.ca> "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." wrote: > > I have 2 different loopback? plugs... both made by T-BAR > > 565-980-2 is DB25M with wiring (on the visible circuit side): > 2-3 > 4-5 > 6-20 > 8-23 > 11-15 > 12-21 > 14-16 > > 565-980-3 is DB25F with wiring (on the visible circuit side): > 13-19-22 > 17-24 > > There are traces on the top of the PCB as well, but the DB25 > connector is covering them, so they'd have to be discovered via > a multimeter.... I wonder if it is actually the same PCB used on both units, but because of the mirror-imaging of the pins when they are mounted on the male vs. the female connector you end up seeing the different sides of the PCB when looking at the two connectors from the back. The 'non-typical' pins used make (some) degree of sense for synchronous operation and the rarely-used secondary channel in the RS-232 standard, e.g. 14-16 == 2ndTXD-2ndRXD > I haven't found any t-bar information by those #s on line.... > And they don't match a few different RS232 loopback plug > wiring diagrams I found online... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 30 13:56:05 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 19:56:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 29, 10 02:12:44 pm Message-ID: > I have to laugh when people use the term "GCR" as if it were a > standard. My response is usually "whose GCR?". Isn;'t MFM technically a form of GCR? > > Personally (and professionally), I'm less concerned about emulating > floppies than retrieving data from them and allowing people to move > on. The world in general seems to have been pretty successful in > weaning itself away from 556 BPI 7-track 1/2" tape, after all. Not on this list :-). Many of my machine depend on floppy disks (not just to store user files, in many cases the OS loads from a floppy).And while I would like ot keep all my machines as original as possible, it would also be useful to be able to use flash memory with them. I really must get round to designing SD-card interfaces for some of my machines. I'd m,uch rather build them myself because that way I get to use the sort of solder I'm happiest with... > > There is a lot of data still residing on obsolete and obsolescent > media. The great part is that once the world migrates from one > obsolete medium, there's always another to be declared obsolete. > > So when will mechanical hard drives be on the chopping block? If you > think about it, they're really a backward technology, with moving > parts and hungry power consumption. YEs, but what would replace them? Flash memory has too few write cycles to be a sensible replacement for a hard disk in many applications. > > I had a potential customer who wanted to replace an old AMD multibus > floppy controller board with a modern version that would support high- > density 3.5' floppies, needed to boot his system, but not otherwise > used to hold working data, I tried to point out to him that it would > be far simpler to employ an EEPROM with the needed data. > > He would have none of it. He also specified that all parts had to be > through-hole and socketed. I see nothing particularly wrong with that last requiremnt. It would make the thing a lot easier to maintain. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 30 14:08:42 2010 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 20:08:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: <20100430091739.df578875.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Apr 30, 10 09:17:39 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 20:03:07 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > I think I bought my last floppy drive about 15 years ago. It was a=20 > > name-brand (Teac) and I bought the service manual too. Never had any=20 > > problems with it... > So surprise. In 1995 floppy drives still had a quite good quality. > But they went down the hill in the late 90'is. Ah... So your oan is not about floppy drives per se, but the fact that more recent floppy drives are pieces of crap. On that you will get no arguments from me. I acutally wonder if they bother to align such drives at the factory, the price makes me wonder if they can, and tests on a couple of such drives indicate they're not aligned properly... > > > > 8" flppies where already gone and replaced by 5.25", when I got my > > > fingers on a computer for the first time. > > My first floppy drive was a 5.25" one ()on a TRS-80 Model 1). This has=20 > > not stopped me from obtaing 8" drives since then :-) > Well. In the meantime I got two 8" drives and media too, but never used > them. I even wrote a driver for the RX02 8" floppy for NetBSD/VAX. I do use them. One of my favourite machines only has a signle 8" floppy drive and a winchester hard disk. > Though, I wrote that driver with a 5.25" drive connected to a third > party controler that emulates a RX02. I don't own a real RX02. I do... I'ce even disassembled and commented the microcode from one (well, it was something to do on thr train between Birstol and London...) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Apr 30 15:44:07 2010 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:44:07 -0700 Subject: An option - Re: the beginning of the end for floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4BD993DC.28443.10557DE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Apr 29, 10 02:12:44 pm, Message-ID: <4BDADEA7.18149.FC65D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Apr 2010 at 19:56, Tony Duell wrote: > YEs, but what would replace them? Flash memory has too few write > cycles to be a sensible replacement for a hard disk in many > applications. What with a number of new technologies on the horizon, such as phase- change memory, I imagine it's only a matter of time before something supplants rotating mass storage. > I see nothing particularly wrong with that last requiremnt. It would > make the thing a lot easier to maintain. His requirement was for 200 units. Ever try to find that many new through-hole mount floppy controller ICs with about an equal number kept in the parts crib for replacements? If so, please give me the name of your supplier. Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 15:46:08 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 15:46:08 -0500 Subject: PC/ix (was a generic 486 system bid up to $105?) Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Aargh... don't remind me. ?Even though it would not be able to do > much, I actually miss my first Unix box... an IBM PC/XT running PC/ix. > ?I have been searching for YEARS to find another copy of PC/ix, to no > avail. Not sure if it may have been you posting on this thread, but here is an old discussion of PC/ix: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?11151-PC-IX-Images The OP had posted disk images but the links are now dead. Trixter (who I believe is on this list?) also downloaded them. Maybe he still has them? I wouldn't mind giving it a try on my idle XT, too. -- jht From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 15:54:23 2010 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:54:23 -0700 Subject: PC/ix (was a generic 486 system bid up to $105?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I received a reply to my original posting with a link (working) to the discussion as well as to the images. The images can be found at: http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/IBM/software/PCIX/index.html I'm going to assume that it's ok to post this to the list. Thank you, though, for the link to the discussion. :) Now if I could just find an original copy with the docs... PC/ix had some awesome manuals (no man pages because of the space limitations). Mark On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> Aargh... don't remind me. ?Even though it would not be able to do >> much, I actually miss my first Unix box... an IBM PC/XT running PC/ix. >> ?I have been searching for YEARS to find another copy of PC/ix, to no >> avail. > > Not sure if it may have been you posting on this thread, but here is > an old discussion of PC/ix: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?11151-PC-IX-Images > > The OP had posted disk images but the links are now dead. ?Trixter > (who I believe is on this list?) also downloaded them. ?Maybe he still > has them? ?I wouldn't mind giving it a try on my idle XT, too. > > -- > jht > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Apr 30 15:55:15 2010 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 13:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC/ix (was a generic 486 system bid up to $105?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <540649.83393.qm@web52603.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 4/30/10, Jason T wrote: > > ?I have been searching for YEARS to find another copy > of PC/ix, to no > > avail. > > The OP had posted disk images but the links are now > dead.? Trixter Just did a bit of quick poking on the site - looks like it just got reorganized. Try here: http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/IBM/software/PCIX/ -Ian From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Apr 30 16:09:52 2010 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 16:09:52 -0500 Subject: PC/ix (was a generic 486 system bid up to $105?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 3:54 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Now if I could just find an original copy with the docs... PC/ix had > some awesome manuals (no man pages because of the space limitations). A post toward the end of that thread was from a guy who had complete docs; it's from 2/10, so maybe still valid? And if anyone gets them - please scan and contribute. I can host! -- jht From doc at vaxen.net Fri Apr 30 18:29:59 2010 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 18:29:59 -0500 Subject: HP rx5670 In-Reply-To: References: <4BD7468C.3000003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4BDB67F7.8010200@vaxen.net> On 4/27/10 4:20 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'd recommend asking on comp.os.vms, I don't know how many of us here that > run VMS have access to Itanium-based systems. I've yet to find one in my > price range. My rx2600 came with 10GB RAM and cost $250 shipped.... Doc From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 30 17:39:28 2010 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2010 23:39:28 +0100 Subject: the beginning of the end for floppies References: , <007201cae7e6$fe9ae9a0$2ffdf93e@user8459cef6fa> <4BD9A1E2.8871.13C1CFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <011c01cae8be$195a50a0$55fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:12 PM Subject: Re: the beginning of the end for floppies > On 29 Apr 2010 at 22:19, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > > > Perhaps someone (no I'm *not* volunteering!) should look in to > > documenting how floppy discs are made? I have a general idea, but how > > they actually make and coat the media should be preserved for future > > generations now, before it gets forgotten. For example, how do they > > attach the metal slider with that tiny spring inside? In 10 (or 20) > > years that sort of information would probably be lost or very hard to > > find. > > I ascribe the decline in floppy media at least in part to a similar > decline in consumer video tape, mostly VHS. ISTR that 360K 5.25" > floppies use approximately the same coating formulation and thickness > as VHS tape. Instead of cutting the substrate into long strips, you > cut it into round "cookies'. > > --Chuck > (Audio) Cassettes are also no longer used, which must also make an impact. I remember a time (say around 1990) when my dad would get tokens from the local petrol station here in the UK. Once you collected say 10 tokens you could exchange them for a free pack of audio cassettes (4 cassettes, with 90 minutes per cassette). It was great for me, as I was just learning to program on the ZX Spectrum 128K and had just discovered country music. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk