From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Sep 1 01:22:51 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 08:22:51 +0200 Subject: Corestore collection photos In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090901062251.GA8130@Update.UU.SE> > > For your viewing convenience, snapshots of most (~90%) of the larger items from the Corestore Collection have been assembled in one place: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2029992&id=1528659644&l=4ac3e8f85d Wow! Color me awestruck. Are you in some kind of competition with CHM? > > Enjoy! I sure did, its cool to see that people collect things not digital, which seems most common (me included). I do hope you get the Connection Machine running, they really are the blinkenlights collectors wet dream. Could you perhaps enlighten us to what HIPPI cables are? Where do you store all this, do you have a hangar somewhere in you backyard? Also, can I visit you, should I ever cross the atlantic? Regards, Pontus. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 1 01:37:25 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2009 23:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore collection photos In-Reply-To: <20090901062251.GA8130@Update.UU.SE> References: <20090901062251.GA8130@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Sep 2009, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Could you perhaps enlighten us to what HIPPI cables are? I think they're for connecting flowers with one another in a daisy chain. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 1 03:24:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 04:24:25 -0400 Subject: Corestore collection photos In-Reply-To: <20090901062251.GA8130@Update.UU.SE> References: <20090901062251.GA8130@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <786692E0-4210-4F8C-890E-351F965DBF90@neurotica.com> On Sep 1, 2009, at 2:22 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I do hope you get the Connection Machine running, they really are the > blinkenlights collectors wet dream. Could you perhaps enlighten us to > what HIPPI cables are? HIPPI (HIgh Performance Parallel Interface) is a high-speed interconnect found on many supercomputers. It is most often used for storage, but can also be used for point-to-point networking. In the latter application, TCP/IP is usually used, often with insanely high MTU values for very impressive transfer rates. The first iteration of the standard runs at 800Mbps, but current HIPPI (called "GSN", for Gigabyte System Network) run at 6.4Gbps. These are full-duplex speeds, 6.4Gbps in each direction. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 1 04:21:03 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:21:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Looking for measured power consumption of some old DEC In-Reply-To: <200908311032.27335.vax@purdue.edu> References: <200908311032.27335.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Aug 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've noticed this as well. I calculated based on my gas and electric > bills, that electricity costs me about $0.10/kWh, and natural gas comes > out to about $0.02/kWh (given 100% efficient conversion). Given a It's more like EUR 0.20/kWh (electricity) and EUR 0.04/kWh (gas) here... And to be on topic: my fully loaded 11/45 (MOS memory, though) with one RK05, one RL02 and one RX02, everything up and running, needs about 1800 watts. I could nearly run two of those systems on one fuse. Christian From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 1 04:39:09 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:39:09 +0200 Subject: Looking for measured power consumption of some old DEC In-Reply-To: References: <200908311032.27335.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: <1ADBB6369784457B85DA12D8B377AF09@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Christian Corti > Verzonden: dinsdag 1 september 2009 11:21 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Looking for measured power consumption of some old DEC > > On Mon, 31 Aug 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I've noticed this as well. I calculated based on my gas > and electric > > bills, that electricity costs me about $0.10/kWh, and natural gas > > comes out to about $0.02/kWh (given 100% efficient > conversion). Given > > a > > It's more like EUR 0.20/kWh (electricity) and EUR 0.04/kWh > (gas) here... > > And to be on topic: my fully loaded 11/45 (MOS memory, > though) with one RK05, one RL02 and one RX02, everything up > and running, needs about 1800 watts. I could nearly run two > of those systems on one fuse. > > Christian > In the Netherlands you can buy small heat-power coupling units witch produce central heating and electricity from natural gas. In combination with a few solar cells you could run on only natural gas. And I'm living on top the greatest gas field of Western-Europe a few hundred meters away from the outlet point ;-) My HP 1000 with a internal HP 9712R drive is using about 1kVA when it's running. -Rik From frej.drejhammar at gmail.com Tue Sep 1 04:49:02 2009 From: frej.drejhammar at gmail.com (Frej Drejhammar) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:49:02 +0200 Subject: Performance analysis for DOS apps? In-Reply-To: <4A9C5170.4020007@oldskool.org> (Jim Leonard's message of "Mon\, 31 Aug 2009 17\:40\:48 -0500") References: <4A9B12E4.7050909@brutman.com> <4A9C5170.4020007@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > You can profile sections of code yourself by reading the 8253 timer > both before and after a block executes, then subtracting. Mail me if > you'd like some example code. The timer counts from 65535 down to 0 > about 18.2 times every second; if the code you're profiling executes > in less than 55ms, then you can do your own microsecond-accurate > timing. A good reference on how to do this is in Michael Abrash's Graphics Programming Black Book, Chapter three[1]. BTW, the whole book is great reading if you are interested in x86 optimization in the [345]86-era. Regards, --Frej [1] http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1698.asp From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 1 10:14:34 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:14:34 -0400 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm Message-ID: Hi, all, I have the opportunity to pick up a couple of NCD 19r mono Xterms locally, if I want (someone else declined due to lack of basement space). I have not tested them, but I can. Doing a bit of digging, I see that folks have offered them on numerous mailing lists over the years (including suns-at-home, and I think here) and frequently get no takers, so it sounds as if they have no assignable cash "value". Does anyone here have any experience with them, how hard it is to find the software for the tftp repository? (I did a non-exhaustive search and haven't found any yet) Besides performing their obvious function (serving a mono framebuffer, mouse, and keyboard), are they neat in any way, or are they part of the dustbin of history? They are kinda large, so I'm not exactly eager to move *more* large CRTs into my house without good reason. I'm seeking a reason. I already have an HDS xterm that I got working some time back, but it's just a slab - you use your own monitor. *That* doesn't take up too much space on the shelf. A large glass bottle does. Thanks for any input and/or stories about the NCD 19r. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Sep 1 10:31:17 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:31:17 -0400 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200909011131.18044.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 01 September 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Does anyone here have any experience with them, how hard it is to > find the software for the tftp repository? (I did a non-exhaustive > search and haven't found any yet) > I already > have an HDS xterm that I got working some time back, but it's just a > slab - you use your own monitor. *That* doesn't take up too much > space on the shelf. A large glass bottle does. FWIW, it seems much easier to find software for the 19r than the HDS slabs. I do have software for the 19r floating around somewhere (I had a few at one time), harass me off list and I'll see if I can dig it up. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 1 10:40:40 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 11:40:40 -0400 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: <200909011131.18044.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200909011131.18044.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 9/1/09, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > FWIW, it seems much easier to find software for the 19r than the HDS > slabs. Indeed. Some years ago, when I was fiddling around with the HDS slab, I finally found what I needed on a repository at MIT. I did get it working, but I can't remember from what environment (probably from my old SPARC2 or SPARC5 that I was using at the time). I should go looking for that dir and back it up on its own. > I do have software for the 19r floating around somewhere (I had > a few at one time), harass me off list and I'll see if I can dig it up. Cool. I may do that. Have any good stories about how they are neat or how bad they suck to use? (besides the obvious lack of color and how nobody writes apps for mono X servers anymore...) Thanks, -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Sep 1 11:56:50 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 09:56:50 -0700 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Tuesday, September 01, 2009 8:15 AM > To: classiccmp > Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm > > Hi, all, > [snip] > house without good reason. I'm seeking a reason. I already have an > HDS xterm that I got working some time back, but it's just a slab - > you use your own monitor. *That* doesn't take up too much space on > the shelf. A large glass bottle does. > > Thanks for any input and/or stories about the NCD 19r. > > -ethan I'm interested in hearing more about how you got the HDS slabs running. I ended up with a couple when I got my VAX 4000/300, and I recall not being able to figure out how to blank or overwrite the password. What documentation I could find was no help. Do you have any words of wisdom? Thanks -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 1 12:21:12 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 13:21:12 -0400 Subject: HDS Xterms (was Re: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm) Message-ID: On 9/1/09, Ian King wrote: > I'm interested in hearing more about how you got the HDS slabs running. I > ended up with a couple when I got my VAX 4000/300, and I recall not being > able to figure out how to blank or overwrite the password. What > documentation I could find was no help. Do you have any words of wisdom? It's been over 6 years since I did this, and I don't have any ancient lore to draw from (back in the day, we didn't have Ethernet at work - everything was character terminals), but I don't recall anything specifically password related. Perhaps mine were never set or perhaps we have different models. The only issue I ever had was finding the right stuff to stick into the tftp repository to feed it when it was coming up. I am pretty sure I was running it off of a SPARCstation of whatever flavor I owned at the time, so once I stumbled across what I needed, I had to incrementally check the tftp logs to see what was being asked for and get it in the right place. I noodled around with a few apps from the Sun, then put it away since ISTR there were some warts with modern apps like Netscape and an ancient X term. It mostly worked, but I was better off logging into the console (in the same room). Sorry I don't have specifics to quote you, but if you want to send me the model number of what you have off-list, I'll check it against what I have and see if they are even the same. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 1 12:43:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 10:43:46 -0700 Subject: Performance analysis for DOS apps? In-Reply-To: References: <4A9B12E4.7050909@brutman.com>, <4A9C5170.4020007@oldskool.org> (Jim Leonard's message of "Mon\, 31 Aug 2009 17\:40\:48 -0500"), Message-ID: <4A9D5D52.26304.24A04764@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2009 at 11:49, Frej Drejhammar wrote: > A good reference on how to do this is in Michael Abrash's Graphics > Programming Black Book, Chapter three[1]. BTW, the whole book is great > reading if you are interested in x86 optimization in the [345]86-era. I'm going to put my foot into it this time... Using time-in and time-out counters may be fine for code where the "hot spots" are known, but in a large complex application, that's almost never the case. P-counter sampling (using a periodic interrupt to obtain the value of the P counter and construct a histogram) can point the problem areas up. But in all of my own experience, the bit-twiddling sort of optimization almost never yields results of the hoped-for magnitude. For example, unrolling loops or scheduling instructions is fine for compilers with automatic optimizers, but not for the programmer who is going to hand-optimize. And the timing differences across an entire family of CPUs often makes this counterproductive. (I can probably still write out the scheduling for CDC 6600 instructions from memory, as I've done a lot of this sort of thing). What matters most is the algorithm used. Converting 6 digit binary numbers to decimal by repeatedly subtracting 10 is never going to be faster, no matter how carefully optimized than using, say, the Chinese remainder method. Of course, thinking about one's methods is a lot harder than moving instuctions around and potentially more disruptive. For whatever it's worth, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 1 14:21:04 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 13:21:04 -0600 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 01 Sep 2009 11:14:34 -0400. Message-ID: How does the NCD 19r differ from the NCD 16? I have NCD 16 X terminals and they had a very nice feel to the keyboard. Springy without being noisy and had a very nice tactile feel to the push back in the keys. I have an X server for the NCD 16, I don't know if it would work with a 19. Can you post some pictures? The 16 has a unified base with the monitor integrated into it. The keyboard and mouse attaches separately and the monitor has a nice portrait orientation (great for working on code). If you are looking to get rid of them, I'd take them off your hands. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Sep 1 15:52:22 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:52:22 -0500 Subject: Performance analysis for DOS apps? In-Reply-To: References: <4A9B12E4.7050909@brutman.com> <4A9C5170.4020007@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4A9D8986.6030205@brutman.com> Frej Drejhammar wrote: >> You can profile sections of code yourself by reading the 8253 timer >> both before and after a block executes, then subtracting. Mail me if >> you'd like some example code. The timer counts from 65535 down to 0 >> about 18.2 times every second; if the code you're profiling executes >> in less than 55ms, then you can do your own microsecond-accurate >> timing. > > A good reference on how to do this is in Michael Abrash's Graphics > Programming Black Book, Chapter three[1]. BTW, the whole book is great > reading if you are interested in x86 optimization in the [345]86-era. > > Regards, > > --Frej > > [1] http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1698.asp > > I read the introductory chapters where he introduces his timing technique. Jim Leonard also offered to send me a similar set of code, which I am going to take him up on. But like Chuck pointed out, I'm actually more interested in seeing where my time is being spent across the entire application, not in just measuring a particular function. The other idea that is starting to appeal to me more is to start adding counters to my code. For example, if I add one counter to tell me how many times I polled for new packets and I add another counter that tells me how many times I actually found a new packet, then I have a rough idea if I have a flow control problem or a CPU problem. It's fascinating what we take for granted in a modern OS ... Mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 1 22:02:56 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 23:02:56 -0400 Subject: Looking for info on three multi-digit LED assemblies Message-ID: I have a box of LED displays that I picked up all at once from a Hamfest, probably either Dayton or Mansfield. There are enough similarities between the three types that I figure they are from the same maker. I don't have any easy way to take pictures right now, but I can post the relevant characteristics to see if anyone has any recognition. They seem easy enough to reverse-engineer, so while I'd love schematics or other documentation, I'll be able to use them without. I'm mostly curious what equipment they might have come out of. #1 - the oldest style. Marked "assy 4000123-101". Three double-digit MAN6610 displays with a "336" date code on a "front board" attached to a driver board by dozens of individual 330 Ohm 1/4w resistors used structurally as well as electrically. The driver board has six 74LS47s with date codes of "231". There are four lugs on one short edge of the board with cut wire stubs, E1 and E2 have orange wires, E3 is blank, E4 has a black wire - +5V and GND. The data comes in on 30 individual wire-wrap stakes with the stubs of the old WW wire still on them, BCD data plus latch x 6. #2 - the middle board in age and appearance. Marked "assy 4002244", with 4002243-1 on the front, it's a newer board with a solder mask, and has *five* dual-digit LED displays, HDSP-K121s, grouped as 4 digits and three pairs of digits - as if it could display year plus hrs/min/sec or DOY plus hrs/min/sec. It uses an unusual (to me) driver chip - *nine* of a Motorola MC14543 (date code 9026) which the datasheet tells me is suited for LCD driving. It also has the same power lugs on the short edge, E1-E4 with the same color stubs. There are 49 WW pins around a long and the opposite short edge. They appear to be strangely numbered, first in nine groups of four, then with ascending numbered pins adjacent to the groups (probably BCD plus latch), with the last four pins over on one short edge. Both of these displays have pins that are not aligned nor spaced to permit a ribbon cable or molex or Berg connector to easily attach, and in fact, both still have wire-wrap wire stubs, so they appear to have been somewhat permanently attached to their surroundings. They also take an enormous number of pins, but would be trivial to drive from 4-bit counters and such (thus the newer one would make a perfect display for a DOY+TOD clock made from discrete TTL or CMOS). #3 - much more modern design. Marked 4005935-1 on the back and 4005936-101 on the front. It has nine single-digit hpHDSP-E103 displays (date 852) driven by a pair of Maxim MAX7219CWG (date code 9611) 8-digit clocked-serial-interface LED drivers. It's physically grouped as three digits, then three pairs (DOY+TOD), and comes with a red plexi bezel with "error" over the bottom edge of the "single hours" digit and "dropout" over the bottom edge of the "single minutes" digit. Its connector to the outside world is a keyed and latched 3M 3408 connector - 2x8 0.1" spacing. So do any of these LED assemblies ring a bell with anyone in terms of type or brand of equipment? The only thing that even closely resembles a company name or logo is NTUF-1 near the commonly-seen '94V-0' legend. Thanks for any hints or suggestions, -ethan From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Sep 1 23:59:28 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 00:59:28 -0400 Subject: OKIstation 7300 Message-ID: <4A9DFBB0.4050802@hawkmountain.net> Well... I'm now in possession of one of these... sadly... it doesn't boot... the hd doesn't seem to spin up.... I know nothing about these.... Anyone have any info on them ? Have boot media ? procedure on checking if drive is recognized in bios... (so far bios seems to have one letter commands, r for register dump, m for manipulating memory, b for boot, etc... no help command, no ? command) I was really hoping this thing would boot... if so, I was then going to pull the SCSI drive and image it.... This is an i860 based system. I've found few references on the net to a SVR4 variant called OKIX ? -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Sep 2 00:40:30 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:40:30 -0400 Subject: OKIstation 7300 In-Reply-To: <4A9DFBB0.4050802@hawkmountain.net> References: <4A9DFBB0.4050802@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4A9E054E.5030402@hawkmountain.net> A follow up (already).... removed drive, drive spun up in an external scsi case... while I haven't DVM'd the drive power... I'm predicting a problem with probably the 12V feed to the drive. I connected up the external drive box (using it just as a power supply) and booted OKIX ! I think the bearings on the drive are not that great... (takes a bit to spin up). Appears to be a 400M drive... I'll probably try cloning it onto a Sun 424M or 512M drive (or even a 1G drive). I'll also make a dd image of the entire disk and burn it to a CD. But, still hoping someone has docs, media, etc for this. I have the OKIstation, the OKI monitor (same as a sun 16" Sun "breadbox" monitor (Sony P2)). Came with a serial logitech mouse and a generic AT keyboard (guess it used to have an OKI keyboard... but that was accidentally tossed at some point in the unit's lifetime). (thankfully the root password was "root" :-) )... otherwise I'd be mounting the UFS filesystems off of some other box (Linux ?) to modify the password/shadow file. -- Curt Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > Well... I'm now in possession of one of these... > > sadly... it doesn't boot... the hd doesn't seem to spin up.... > > I know nothing about these.... > > Anyone have any info on them ? Have boot media ? > procedure on checking if drive is recognized in bios... > > (so far bios seems to have one letter commands, r for register dump, m > for > manipulating memory, b for boot, etc... no help command, no ? command) > > I was really hoping this thing would boot... if so, I was then going > to pull the > SCSI drive and image it.... > > This is an i860 based system. I've found few references on the net to > a SVR4 > variant called OKIX ? > > -- Curt > From tmanos at concursive.com Tue Sep 1 17:15:25 2009 From: tmanos at concursive.com (Tom Manos) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2009 18:15:25 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 4 terminal capabilities Message-ID: <9B4E682D-E13E-41CE-98FA-A16FDFFEE399@concursive.com> Hi All, I have a nice, working Kaypro 4 machine running CP/M 2.2, and am beginning to do some assembler, pascal, and c programming on it. I'd like to do some games in the near future but have been unable to find any documentation on addressing the screen. Is this thing just a dumb terminal (I don't think so), or are there some terminal capabilities someone can tell me about or point me to? TIA, Tom From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 2 01:15:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2009 23:15:03 -0700 Subject: Kaypro 4 terminal capabilities In-Reply-To: <9B4E682D-E13E-41CE-98FA-A16FDFFEE399@concursive.com> References: <9B4E682D-E13E-41CE-98FA-A16FDFFEE399@concursive.com> Message-ID: <4A9E0D67.5401.27501584@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2009 at 18:15, Tom Manos wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a nice, working Kaypro 4 machine running CP/M 2.2, and am > beginning to do some assembler, pascal, and c programming on it. > > I'd like to do some games in the near future but have been unable to > find any documentation on addressing the screen. Is this thing just a > dumb terminal (I don't think so), or are there some terminal > capabilities someone can tell me about or point me to? The Kaypro uses an enhanced LSI ADM-3A set of escape sequences to control the display. See section 16.0 in the Kaypro technical manual at http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/kaypro/1484- D_KayproTechnicalManual_Dec84.pdf --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Sep 2 04:07:33 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 11:07:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Sep 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > anyone here have any experience with them, how hard it is to find the > software for the tftp repository? (I did a non-exhaustive search and The software can be found on the NCD FTP server: ftp://ftp.ncd.com/pub/ncd/Archive (FTP passive mode doesn't work, you need active mode) Christian From tmanos at CONCURSIVE.com Wed Sep 2 07:17:51 2009 From: tmanos at CONCURSIVE.com (Tom Manos) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 08:17:51 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 4 terminal capabilities Message-ID: <6803A5CF-C48D-493F-9461-8204B376B5A2@CONCURSIVE.com> Chuck, Thanks, that did it! Tom ----------------------------------------------- Chuck said: The Kaypro uses an enhanced LSI ADM-3A set of escape sequences to control the display. See section 16.0 in the Kaypro technical manual at http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/kaypro/1484- D_KayproTechnicalManual_Dec84.pdf From devonstopps at gmail.com Wed Sep 2 11:50:19 2009 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:50:19 -0400 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A9EA24B.2080006@gmail.com> I have the firmware for these kicking around somewhere. They can also be used as a serial terminal (after loading the firmware) and have sockets for ROM firmware. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 2 13:00:36 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:00:36 -0600 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 02 Sep 2009 11:07:33 +0200. Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > The software can be found on the NCD FTP server: > ftp://ftp.ncd.com/pub/ncd/Archive Anyone know a good way to suck over this whole archive? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doc at vaxen.net Wed Sep 2 13:02:07 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 13:02:07 -0500 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A9EB31F.1090507@vaxen.net> Richard wrote: > In article , > Christian Corti writes: > >> The software can be found on the NCD FTP server: >> ftp://ftp.ncd.com/pub/ncd/Archive > > Anyone know a good way to suck over this whole archive? wget won't do it? Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 2 13:04:44 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 14:04:44 -0400 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A0F9EFC-C4F4-4AEF-87CE-99B2D285D3EE@neurotica.com> On Sep 2, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Richard wrote: >> The software can be found on the NCD FTP server: >> ftp://ftp.ncd.com/pub/ncd/Archive > > Anyone know a good way to suck over this whole archive? "wget -r" -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Sep 2 13:39:39 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 14:39:39 -0400 Subject: Looking for info on three multi-digit LED assemblies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > So do any of these LED assemblies ring a bell with anyone in terms of > type or brand of equipment? Time code displays? Google terms: IRIG, Symmetricom, Truetime Getting sales attention from Truetime/Symmetricom has been very hard the past couple of years. If the digits weren't grouped for time codes, then pinball machine score readouts MC14543/CD4543 is actually a very nice BCD to seven segment decoder if not the very beefiest output current Tim. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 2 13:46:33 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 14:46:33 -0400 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200909021446.33392.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 02 September 2009, Richard wrote: > In article , > > Christian Corti writes: > > The software can be found on the NCD FTP server: > > ftp://ftp.ncd.com/pub/ncd/Archive > > Anyone know a good way to suck over this whole archive? wget -r Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 2 14:51:02 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:51:02 -0700 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD Message-ID: <4A9ECCA6.8090209@bitsavers.org> I need to get a system running to recover some data from some HPIB drives. Does anyone have one to spare, or an ISO image of it? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 2 15:00:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 16:00:28 -0400 Subject: Looking for info on three multi-digit LED assemblies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/2/09, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> So do any of these LED assemblies ring a bell with anyone in terms of >> type or brand of equipment? > > Time code displays? Google terms: IRIG, Symmetricom, Truetime Good call, but my digging with Google Images isn't turning up any visual matches. I'll see if I can't get some reasonable quality photos of the boards in case the style triggers any recognition. > Getting sales attention from Truetime/Symmetricom has been very hard the > past couple of years. Indeed. We've had some Symmetricom products at the Pole. Fortunately, I only have to deal with them if they break, which is not often. > If the digits weren't grouped for time codes, then pinball machine score > readouts Probably not pinball. The older one (7447-based) has all 6 digits jammed together for either a counter or hrs/min/sec with no colons. The newer ones are definitely 3 digits, gap, 2, smaller gap, 2, small gap, 2, even though one of them has 4 leading digits, only 3 are driven by the swath of MC14543s, so I'm going to go with DOY, hrs/min/sec for both of the newer units, which does suggest precision timekeeping devices. Unfortunately, the recent trend has been to LCD displays, so LEDs are somewhat older and hard to find info on. > MC14543/CD4543 is actually a very nice BCD to seven segment decoder if not > the very beefiest output current I was looking over the datasheet last night - the decode matrix is a lot like the 7447, except there's the possibility for injecting a square wave to directly drive LCDs. That's an odd feature. Thanks for the nudge towards that sort of gear. -ethan From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 2 15:32:07 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 22:32:07 +0200 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD In-Reply-To: <4A9ECCA6.8090209@bitsavers.org> References: <4A9ECCA6.8090209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Al Kossow > Verzonden: woensdag 2 september 2009 21:51 > Aan: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD > > I need to get a system running to recover some data from some > HPIB drives. Does anyone have one to spare, or an ISO image of it? > > Al, What kind of HP 9000 series do you have a 300/400 series or a 700 series. I do have the disc for the 300 series and I think (have to check) also for the 700 series. For the 300 series you also can use OpenBSD. For the 300 series you need 2 CD's HP-UX 9.00 Install and the 9.10 update CD. I can provide ISO's, if you have an upload address, or the CD's . -Rik From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 2 17:31:25 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 00:31:25 +0200 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD In-Reply-To: References: <4A9ECCA6.8090209@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20090903003125.759c874b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 2 Sep 2009 22:32:07 +0200 "Rik Bos" wrote: > For the 300 series you also can use OpenBSD. Or NetBSD. Most models of the 700 series (PA-RISC) are suported by NetBSD and OpenBSD too. You can also run the original 4.4BSD on the 300 / 400 series. See the TUHS archive. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From tponsford at rnsmte.com Wed Sep 2 18:22:02 2009 From: tponsford at rnsmte.com (tp) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:22:02 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal Message-ID: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> I picked up a Omrom programmable terminal. Picked up is the operative word as the thing weights around 70 pounds! It appears to work in spite of a disjointed space bar (fixed) and the model number is 8030. There is a rotary knob on the back that sets the baudrate (up to a whopping 4800 baud) and what appears to be 4 rs-232 ports, one parallel port and a coax port labeled TV ?? Anyone ever use these? is there a manual/pdf out there. A google search does not appear to bring any good results. It does have a cool NASA/DOD sticker on it! Cheers Tom P. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 2 20:00:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 18:00:31 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> Message-ID: <4A9F152F.5150.2B567296@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Sep 2009 at 16:22, tp wrote: > I picked up a Omrom programmable terminal. Picked up is the operative > word as the thing weights around 70 pounds! It appears to work in > spite of a disjointed space bar (fixed) and the model number is 8030. > There is a rotary knob on the back that sets the baudrate (up to a > whopping 4800 baud) and what appears to be 4 rs-232 ports, one > parallel port and a coax port labeled TV ?? Is that really Omrom and not Omron? --Chuck From tponsford at rnsmte.com Wed Sep 2 22:17:40 2009 From: tponsford at rnsmte.com (tp) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:17:40 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4A9F152F.5150.2B567296@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F152F.5150.2B567296@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A9F3554.50608@rnsmte.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Sep 2009 at 16:22, tp wrote: > > >> I picked up a Omrom programmable terminal. Picked up is the operative >> word as the thing weights around 70 pounds! It appears to work in >> spite of a disjointed space bar (fixed) and the model number is 8030. >> There is a rotary knob on the back that sets the baudrate (up to a >> whopping 4800 baud) and what appears to be 4 rs-232 ports, one >> parallel port and a coax port labeled TV ?? >> > > Is that really Omrom and not Omron? > > --Chuck > > > > My Bad, It is Omron Information Systems out of Sunnyvale. California Cheers Tom P. From jws at jwsss.com Wed Sep 2 20:13:50 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 18:13:50 -0700 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A9F184E.9060804@jwsss.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, all, > > Ethan, I searched and didn't find anything as far as the NCD software for these, but I did find a hack which purports to allow it to support Linux if that is of any interest (or at least attacked the boot). it was called NCDhack and might be out there in a later version than I have. The NCDhack reformatted the boot image to go into the NCD via the boot process FWIW. The author also distributed a build of a PPC linux kernel if you have a matching vintage of NCD terminal. I can send you the source for the hack, or the whole thing can be downloaded if you are really interested. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 3 01:53:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 23:53:08 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> Message-ID: <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Sep 2009 at 16:22, tp wrote: Tom, there's a product announcement of the 8030 in the September 1976 IEEE Computer magazine. Says it's 8080 based, with editing features (e.g. protected fields) and two display pages. The announcement claims a top speed of 9600 bps, however. The "New Products" section for that month is certainly interesting. Intersil announced their Intercept Jr. evaluation kit for the IM6100. American MIcrosystems trotted out their development system for the 6800. EAI announced a new hybrid computer system. North Star had a floating-point board for their systems. Interdata introduced two new minis. But the thing that caught my eye was the HP 548A "logic clip"--a device built into a DIP test clip with an LED for each pin. It featured self-seeking logic and would display the state of all pins for RTL, TTL, DTL and CMOS logic families. It sounds very cool--and I have never seen one in the flesh. If you're an IEEE CS member, you can pick up a PDF of the "new products" section from the IEEE web site. Otherwise, I can pass it on to you for browsing. Best regards, Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 3 11:08:52 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 18:08:52 +0200 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD Message-ID: <200909031608.n83G86Vb095966@smtp-vbr9.xs4all.nl> -----Original Message----- From: "Al Kossow" To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Sent: 09/02/2009 21:51 Subject: ISO HP-UX 9.10 install CD I need to get a system running to recover some data from some HPIB drives. Does anyone have one to spare, or an ISO image of it? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 3 12:27:33 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:27:33 -0600 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Sep 2009 at 16:22, tp wrote: > > Tom, there's a product announcement of the 8030 in the September 1976 > IEEE Computer magazine. Says it's 8080 based, with editing features > (e.g. protected fields) and two display pages. The announcement > claims a top speed of 9600 bps, however. This is 1976 ... did they have 9600 modems back then that a human could afford! > The "New Products" section for that month is certainly interesting. > Intersil announced their Intercept Jr. evaluation kit for the IM6100. > American MIcrosystems trotted out their development system for the > 6800. EAI announced a new hybrid computer system. North Star had a > floating-point board for their systems. Interdata introduced two new > minis. Any guesses what the hardware on the floating point board was? > But the thing that caught my eye was the HP 548A "logic clip"--a > device built into a DIP test clip with an LED for each pin. It > featured self-seeking logic and would display the state of all pins > for RTL, TTL, DTL and CMOS logic families. It sounds very cool--and > I have never seen one in the flesh. > > If you're an IEEE CS member, you can pick up a PDF of the "new > products" section from the IEEE web site. Otherwise, I can pass it > on to you for browsing. Text based is fine with me. > Best regards, > Chuck > PS. The problem with old catalogs and products for sale, is that it reminds me I wanted to buy said item at one time. From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Sep 3 12:28:33 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 13:28:33 -0400 Subject: Looking for info on three multi-digit LED assemblies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The newer ones are definitely 3 digits, gap, 2, smaller gap, 2, small > gap, 2, even though one of them has 4 leading digits, only 3 are > driven by the swath of MC14543s, so I'm going to go with DOY, > hrs/min/sec for both of the newer units, which does suggest precision > timekeeping devices. Certainly sounds like Julian-day-hour-minute-second to me, just like all the timecode displays I've ever seen going back a good chunk of a century :-). I looked through the truetime schematics I have and none of yours match exactly so maybe some other brand. Some similar displays are sometimes used in video and movie editing and production (think those LED slates), although there the 3- or 4-digits would probably not be day, but some sort of sequence number, dunno for sure, I only briefly touched Hollywood :-) Tim. From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Sep 3 12:59:31 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 10:59:31 -0700 Subject: 9600 bps in 1976 [was RE: Omrom programmable terminal] In-Reply-To: <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > From: Ben > Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 10:28 AM > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 2 Sep 2009 at 16:22, tp wrote: >> Tom, there's a product announcement of the 8030 in the September 1976 >> IEEE Computer magazine. Says it's 8080 based, with editing features >> (e.g. protected fields) and two display pages. The announcement >> claims a top speed of 9600 bps, however. > This is 1976 ... did they have 9600 modems back then that a human could > afford! This would have been an acceptable speed on a hardwired terminal line into, for example, a DEC-20. Terminals aren't always connected to modems. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at Vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 3 13:11:06 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 11:11:06 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA006BA.18223.79C16F@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2009 at 11:27, Ben wrote: > This is 1976 ... did they have 9600 modems back then that a human > could afford! Sure they did--you leased a 209 from Ma Bell--but that was IIRC, sync, not async. But no one said anything about modems--more likely, these things just connected to a mainframe. > Any guesses what the hardware on the floating point board was? TTL glue and bipolar PROMs, believe it or not, operating in BCD. Add time was quoted at 20 uzec and multiply at 100 usec. The most complex function IC was a 74S181 ALU. > Text based is fine with me. Here's the PDF download link: http://csdl2.computer.org/comp/mags/co/1976/09/01647483.pdf I don't know if the IEEE gateway will block access or not. But the HTML rendition of the document is nearly unreadable because of OCR errors. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 13:09:37 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:09:37 -0500 Subject: Another "oldest computer" story... Message-ID: <4AA00661.8000304@gmail.com> [I've not been reading the list for a little while, so apologies if this has been mentioned already] The Harwell Dekatron Computer - aka. WITCH - has just arrived at TNMoC for restoration. Once completed, it'll be (as far as we know) the oldest functional, complete, stored-program electronic machine in the world (some careful qualifying there, because of course it's one of a handful of 'pioneering' machines, all of which have their place in history). Lots of links to news items on the machine at: http://www.tnmoc.org/inthenews.aspx Plans for the machine date from 1949, with it first running in 1951. Wikipedia background info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WITCH_(computer) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 13:15:44 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:15:44 -0400 Subject: Looking for info on three multi-digit LED assemblies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/3/09, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> The newer ones are definitely 3 digits, gap, 2, smaller gap, 2, small >> gap, 2... so I'm going to go with DOY, hrs/min/sec... > Certainly sounds like Julian-day-hour-minute-second to me, just like all the > timecode displays I've ever seen going back a good chunk of a century :-). I > looked through the truetime schematics I have and none of yours match > exactly so maybe some other brand. I googled for photos of truetime devices and did not recognize the style and spacing of the LEDs. Also, as I said, LCDs are much more common now than LEDs. I have approximate dates for these displays (the newer ones are from the early-to-mid-1990s), so it's been hard to restrict the search to that era without a hint as to a vendor. > Some similar displays are sometimes used in video and movie editing and > production (think those LED slates), although there the 3- or 4-digits > would probably not be day, but some sort of sequence number, dunno for sure, > I only briefly touched Hollywood :-) ISTR those use MM-DD-YY or YYYY HH:MM:SS.fff or something similar. Many more digits than I have. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 3 13:27:13 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:27:13 -0600 Subject: 9600 bps in 1976 [was RE: Omrom programmable terminal] In-Reply-To: References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA00A81.6040604@jetnet.ab.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: >> This is 1976 ... did they have 9600 modems back then that a human could >> afford! > > This would have been an acceptable speed on a hardwired terminal line into, > for example, a DEC-20. Terminals aren't always connected to modems. Yes,9600 is a acceptable direct connect speed. The main problem I find with what few terminals I have used is 'line scroll' flicker - the characters on the bottom line not cleared and flicker for a bit until the CR comes in after a LF. In 1976 I would have been happy to find a local data center, but computing was expensive back then - $1 minute long distance phone, $1 data center usage. ( Rounded figures ). > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at Vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > http://www.PDPplanet.org/ > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 3 13:32:04 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 12:32:04 -0600 Subject: NCD 19r monochrome Xterm In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 02 Sep 2009 18:13:50 -0700. <4A9F184E.9060804@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <4A9F184E.9060804 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > I searched and didn't find anything as far as the NCD software for > these, but I did find a hack which purports to allow it to support Linux > if that is of any interest (or at least attacked the boot). > > it was called NCDhack and might be out there in a later version than I > have. The NCDhack reformatted the boot image to go into the NCD via the > boot process FWIW. The author also distributed a build of a PPC linux > kernel if you have a matching vintage of NCD terminal. > > I can send you the source for the hack, or the whole thing can be > downloaded if you are really interested. > Jim I would be interested in this if you could provide a URL that would be great. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 3 13:52:29 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 14:52:29 -0400 Subject: 9600 bps in 1976 [was RE: Omrom programmable terminal] In-Reply-To: References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> On 2 Sep 2009 at 16:22, tp wrote: > >>> Tom, there's a product announcement of the 8030 in the September >>> 1976 >>> IEEE Computer magazine. Says it's 8080 based, with editing features >>> (e.g. protected fields) and two display pages. The announcement >>> claims a top speed of 9600 bps, however. > >> This is 1976 ... did they have 9600 modems back then that a human >> could >> afford! > > This would have been an acceptable speed on a hardwired terminal > line into, > for example, a DEC-20. Terminals aren't always connected to modems. Indeed, far more terminals were (and still are) connected to computers than to modems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 3 14:41:01 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 20:41:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 2, 9 11:53:08 pm Message-ID: > But the thing that caught my eye was the HP 548A "logic clip"--a > device built into a DIP test clip with an LED for each pin. It > featured self-seeking logic and would display the state of all pins > for RTL, TTL, DTL and CMOS logic families. It sounds very cool--and > I have never seen one in the flesh. I have (both the HP one and clones), but I don't own one. To be honest, it _looks_ cool, but it's fairly useless. The ones I used had no pulse-stretching circuitry, the LEDs just displayed the state of each pin (on for '1', off for '0' and on-but-dim for toggling -- the brightness depended on the mark/space ratio). It was OK on slow circuity, but that's easy to debug anyhow. On anything with a reasonable clock frequency, it didn't tell you much. HP made a couple of other devices that I don't own and could never see the point of. One was the 'signature analyser' which will tell you if a logic signal differes from the correct version (well, provided you have a 'correct version' to also test) but won't tell you _how_ it differs. So actually finding the fault doesn't seem to be any easier. The other is the 'logic comparator' which effectively lets you connect a known-good example of a simple (SSI, MSI) TTL chip to the one under test. The inputs get the same signals, the outputs of the 2 chips are compared. Any differences are shown on LEDs. It seems to me to be a very slow way of findign a fault by just testing each chip, rather than actually looking for the symptoms and working out what's wrong. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 3 14:42:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 20:42:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> from "tp" at Sep 2, 9 04:22:02 pm Message-ID: > > I picked up a Omrom programmable terminal. Picked up is the operative > word as the thing weights around 70 pounds! > It appears to work in spite of a disjointed space bar (fixed) and the > model number is 8030. > There is a rotary knob on the back that sets the baudrate (up to a > whopping 4800 baud) and what appears to be 4 rs-232 ports, one parallel > port and a coax port labeled TV ?? My guess is that the last socket is a composite video output (it's unlike to be modulated RF, but it could be) for feeding an external monitor. -tony From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Sep 3 14:55:38 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:55:38 +0200 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90A Message-ID: <4AA01F3A.6080304@update.uu.se> Hi All. I'm taking my first stumbling steps into the world of VAXen and VMS. Before I sink my teeth in the bigger machines I have, I've decided to see if I can get my VAXStation 4000/90A to run. It seems mostly okay, I can boot the VMS cd I have. But there is one message that concerns me. During the self test I get this: ?? 000 8 SYS 0512 That last number is not hex, if I type the following >>>show err I get ?? 000 8 SYS 0200 And I guess 0200 is hex. Either way, in the manuals I have found, I can read that the test for device number 8 is checking the systems ROMs and that this indicates a checksum or read error. The error code shown is not listed in the manuals. Should I worry about this? Can it be remedied? Kind Regards, Pontus. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Sep 3 15:06:53 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 21:06:53 +0100 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90A In-Reply-To: <4AA01F3A.6080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi All. > > I'm taking my first stumbling steps into the world of VAXen > and VMS. Before I sink my teeth in the bigger machines I > have, I've decided to see if I can get my VAXStation 4000/90A to run. > > It seems mostly okay, I can boot the VMS cd I have. But there > is one message that concerns me. During the self test I get this: > > ?? 000 8 SYS 0512 > > That last number is not hex, if I type the following > >>>> show err > > I get > > ?? 000 8 SYS 0200 > > And I guess 0200 is hex. > > Either way, in the manuals I have found, I can read that the > test for device number 8 is checking the systems ROMs and > that this indicates a checksum or read error. The error code > shown is not listed in the manuals. Should I worry about > this? Can it be remedied? Perhaps it has booted NetBSD? http://osdir.com/ml/netbsd.ports.vax/2003-01/msg00024.html I imagine that reflashing the prom would fix it, and I don't remember reflashing being all that tricky; but I hesitate to recommend something that may prove somewhat tricky to fix 9remotely) should it happen to fail! Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 3 15:12:14 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:12:14 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: References: <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 2, 9 11:53:08 pm, Message-ID: <4AA0231E.30697.E8A6C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2009 at 20:41, Tony Duell wrote: > I have (both the HP one and clones), but I don't own one. To be > honest, it _looks_ cool, but it's fairly useless. The ones I used had > no pulse-stretching circuitry, the LEDs just displayed the state of > each pin (on for '1', off for '0' and on-but-dim for toggling -- the > brightness depended on the mark/space ratio). It was OK on slow > circuity, but that's easy to debug anyhow. On anything with a > reasonable clock frequency, it didn't tell you much. I can see that without pulse stretching or even a "pulse" as opposed to "steady state" indication that the utility would be marginal. > HP made a couple of other devices that I don't own and could never see > the point of. One was the 'signature analyser' which will tell you if > a logic signal differes from the correct version (well, provided you > have a 'correct version' to also test) but won't tell you _how_ it > differs. So actually finding the fault doesn't seem to be any easier. I remember reading about signature analysis in the HP Journal. It looked like a promising technology--not for the lone self-employed technician, but for the field engineer who saw the same equipment day in and day out. It's a method of automating the diagnostic procedure; in a sense, a predecessor to modern boundary-scan techniques. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 3 15:18:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 16:18:00 -0400 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4AA0231E.30697.E8A6C6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 2, 9 11:53:08 pm, <4AA0231E.30697.E8A6C6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 3, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I remember reading about signature analysis in the HP Journal. It > looked like a promising technology--not for the lone self-employed > technician, but for the field engineer who saw the same equipment day > in and day out. Well, the signatures are found in many of the service manuals.. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 3 15:25:28 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 13:25:28 -0700 Subject: Signature Analysis (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal) In-Reply-To: References: <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 2, 9 11:53:08 pm, <4AA0231E.30697.E8A6C6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA02638.2060707@bitsavers.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 3, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I remember reading about signature analysis in the HP Journal. It >> looked like a promising technology--not for the lone self-employed >> technician, but for the field engineer who saw the same equipment day >> in and day out. > > Well, the signatures are found in many of the service manuals.. > > -Dave > Atari and Fluke also provided signature analysis on some of their schematics. The Fluke 9010 microprocessor analyzer had a signature analysis option. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 3 15:27:42 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 22:27:42 +0200 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: References: <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" atSep 2, 9 11:53:08 pm Message-ID: <76D7BD1AE91C433FA72DB20DBBA46E3A@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: donderdag 3 september 2009 21:41 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Omrom programmable terminal > > > But the thing that caught my eye was the HP 548A "logic clip"--a > > device built into a DIP test clip with an LED for each pin. It > > featured self-seeking logic and would display the state of all pins > > for RTL, TTL, DTL and CMOS logic families. It sounds very > cool--and I > > have never seen one in the flesh. > > I have (both the HP one and clones), but I don't own one. To > be honest, it _looks_ cool, but it's fairly useless. The ones > I used had no pulse-stretching circuitry, the LEDs just > displayed the state of each pin (on for '1', off for '0' and > on-but-dim for toggling -- the brightness depended on the > mark/space ratio). It was OK on slow circuity, but that's > easy to debug anyhow. On anything with a reasonable clock > frequency, it didn't tell you much. > > HP made a couple of other devices that I don't own and could > never see the point of. One was the 'signature analyser' > which will tell you if a logic signal differes from the > correct version (well, provided you have a 'correct version' > to also test) but won't tell you _how_ it differs. So > actually finding the fault doesn't seem to be any easier. > > The other is the 'logic comparator' which effectively lets > you connect a known-good example of a simple (SSI, MSI) TTL > chip to the one under test. > The inputs get the same signals, the outputs of the 2 chips > are compared. > Any differences are shown on LEDs. It seems to me to be a > very slow way of findign a fault by just testing each chip, > rather than actually looking for the symptoms and working out > what's wrong. > > -tony I have the signature analyser and the logic comparator. The signature analyser is usefull if you have a HP equipment with the according serv. Manual under test. Fault finding goes rather quick then, the logic comparator is only usefull with clock frequenties below aprox. 10Mhz above that the cable impedance is to big. Using a Fluke 9100A boardtester is much more usefull, because you can test in cuircit ram, drivers and processor. I keep the HP stuff for collecting purpose ;-) And it's nicely build... -Rik From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 3 15:28:05 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 14:28:05 -0600 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: References: <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 2, 9 11:53:08 pm, <4AA0231E.30697.E8A6C6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA026D5.3090000@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 3, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I remember reading about signature analysis in the HP Journal. It >> looked like a promising technology--not for the lone self-employed >> technician, but for the field engineer who saw the same equipment day >> in and day out. > > Well, the signatures are found in many of the service manuals.. > > -Dave But a catch 22 if the equipment don't work in the first place. > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 3 15:31:45 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 21:31:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4AA0231E.30697.E8A6C6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 3, 9 01:12:14 pm Message-ID: > > HP made a couple of other devices that I don't own and could never see > > the point of. One was the 'signature analyser' which will tell you if > > a logic signal differes from the correct version (well, provided you > > have a 'correct version' to also test) but won't tell you _how_ it > > differs. So actually finding the fault doesn't seem to be any easier. > > I remember reading about signature analysis in the HP Journal. It > looked like a promising technology--not for the lone self-employed > technician, but for the field engineer who saw the same equipment day > in and day out. Hmm.. My feeling is that it'll tell you that _something_ is wrong (but you probably knew that anyway), but it won't help in finding _what's_ wrong. If you have a complicated board of logic, then pretty much every signal is going to depend in some way on many other signals. Any fault is going to upset a lot of signals so almost all the signatures will be wrong. Suppose you have something as simple as a 2-input AND gate. All 3 signatures (inputs and output) are wrong. But you don't know what the correct output signature is _for the 2 input signatures you have_ -- in fact it's probably inpossible to work it out -- so you can't tell if that gate is working correctly. A logic analyser will show you, though. -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 3 15:32:25 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:32:25 -0500 Subject: Old IDE to USB? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> Late 80s, early 90s IDE drives don't show up on the IDE-to-USB adapters I'm using for other applications these days. I assume the older drives don't self-identify their geometry or handle newer parts of the IDE spec that these contemporary devices depend on. Any advice for USB-based reading of old drives on new equipment? For that matter, I'd consider investing in the more professional levels of drive reading devices. These $30 USB devices aren't doing it for me. I want a better chance at read dying drives. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 3 15:39:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 16:39:58 -0400 Subject: Old IDE to USB? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <5D0CEAD9-8921-488F-B32E-6E2C32188505@neurotica.com> On Sep 3, 2009, at 4:32 PM, John Foust wrote: > Late 80s, early 90s IDE drives don't show up on the IDE-to-USB > adapters > I'm using for other applications these days. I assume the older > drives > don't self-identify their geometry or handle newer parts of the IDE > spec > that these contemporary devices depend on. > > Any advice for USB-based reading of old drives on new equipment? > For that matter, I'd consider investing in the more professional > levels of drive reading devices. These $30 USB devices aren't doing > it for me. I want a better chance at read dying drives. You could get an IDE PCI card.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Sep 3 15:41:58 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 22:41:58 +0200 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AA02A16.3000801@update.uu.se> > Perhaps it has booted NetBSD? > > http://osdir.com/ml/netbsd.ports.vax/2003-01/msg00024.html > > I imagine that reflashing the prom would fix it, and I don't > remember reflashing being all that tricky; but I hesitate > to recommend something that may prove somewhat tricky to > fix 9remotely) should it happen to fail! > > Antonio > > Ah, sound comforting. I will run with manual booting for now and investigate the matter further. Cheers, Pontus. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 3 16:42:10 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:42:10 -0500 Subject: Old IDE to USB? In-Reply-To: <5D0CEAD9-8921-488F-B32E-6E2C32188505@neurotica.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> <5D0CEAD9-8921-488F-B32E-6E2C32188505@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903163804.03b1dcd8@mail.threedee.com> At 03:39 PM 9/3/2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Sep 3, 2009, at 4:32 PM, John Foust wrote: >>Late 80s, early 90s IDE drives don't show up on the IDE-to-USB >>adapters I'm using for other applications these days. I assume the older >>drives don't self-identify their geometry or handle newer parts of the IDE >>spec that these contemporary devices depend on. > > You could get an IDE PCI card.. And they'll correctly identify and mount an elderly IDE that doesn't specify its geometry when queried? Maybe my assumptions are wrong. I tried reading two early 90s IDE drives using two contemporary USB-to-IDE devices and it doesn't work. The USB-to-IDE devices don't let me specify anything. I even tried on the IDE bus of a mid-90s computer... but come to think of it, I didn't enter the Cyl/Hd/Sec manually. I expected the drive to be auto-recognized, but obviously it wasn't. - John From feedle at feedle.net Thu Sep 3 17:06:25 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (feedle at feedle.net) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 15:06:25 -0700 Subject: Old IDE to USB? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903163804.03b1dcd8@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> <5D0CEAD9-8921-488F-B32E-6E2C32188505@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20090903163804.03b1dcd8@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <95a553ad268706e5bc44410fc52b5579.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> > And they'll correctly identify and mount an elderly IDE that > doesn't specify its geometry when queried? No, they won't. I've personally even had problems with modern on-board IDE not working with older drives. I wound up getting an old 486SX machine working with Linux on it just enough to read and dump some of these older drives. It's a pain in the posterior, but increasingly less and less hardware knows what to do with drives that can't be autodiscovered by the BIOS. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 3 17:37:56 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:37:56 -0700 Subject: Another "oldest computer" story... References: <4AA00661.8000304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA04545.C3D1ADDF@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > The Harwell Dekatron Computer - aka. WITCH - has just arrived at TNMoC for > restoration. Once completed, it'll be (as far as we know) the oldest > functional, complete, stored-program electronic machine in the world (some > careful qualifying there, because of course it's one of a handful of > 'pioneering' machines, all of which have their place in history). > > Lots of links to news items on the machine at: > > http://www.tnmoc.org/inthenews.aspx > > Plans for the machine date from 1949, with it first running in 1951. Wikipedia > background info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WITCH_(computer) This sounds interesting, but is there anything easily accessible that gives a technical or architectural overview? Needless to say, the news releases don't. So far, about all I get is it was largely relay-based, decimal, had a large bank of dekatrons for register or RAM storage, was quite slow but quite reliable (surprising for something with a bunch of dekatrons), and was sort-of stored-program. It sounds like one of those oddball-in-hindsight designs, so it could be interesting to see how it all hung together. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 3 17:57:04 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:57:04 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> Ben wrote: > This is 1976 ... did they have 9600 modems back then that a human could > afford! Yes, but they only worked on point-to-point leased lines with significantly greater bandwidth than normal voice-grade PSTN (Public Switched Telephone Network) lines. Expensive stuff. AFAIK, the first commercially available modem for voice-grade PSTN to achieve 9600 bps or more was the Telebit Trailblazer, introduced in 1985. It was half-duplex at approximately 18,000 bps (peak) with a low bit rate reverse channel. The firmware automatically did line turnarounds based on buffer depths, so it simulated full duplex but with relatively high latency. The Trailblazer used proprietary Packetized Ensemble Protocol (PEP), which used up to 512 narrow-band carriers. It was a forerunner of OFDM modulation, which is now used for 802.11a/g/n and many other high performance data radio applications. The Trailblazer is a 6 baud modem! :-) A baud is a symbol per second, NOT a bit per second. A symbol can encode multiple bits, and in PEP modulation a symbol encodes thousands of bits. For comparison, a V.32 9600 bps modem actually communicates at 2400 baud, with four bits per symbol (16-point constellation). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 3 18:05:38 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:05:38 -0700 Subject: signature analysis (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AA04BC2.5090401@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > HP made a couple of other devices that I don't own and could never see > the point of. One was the 'signature analyser' which will tell you if a > logic signal differes from the correct version (well, provided you have a > 'correct version' to also test) but won't tell you _how_ it differs. So > actually finding the fault doesn't seem to be any easier. > Of course it makes finding the fault easier. The general approach is that if the signature at an output signal of a chip is bad, but the signatures at all of the input signals to that chip are good, then the chip is almost certainly bad. You find a bad signature, and work your way upstream. The purpose is to make it possible for technicians with only basic electronics knowledge to diagnose a failure, without requiring them to have intimate knowledge of how the product works. In many cases the technician can repair the fault, but if not, then it can be escalated to a more knowledgeable technician or engineer. (Or simply scrapped.) Obviously signature analysis is going to be of limited or no utility to someone like yourself. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 3 18:39:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 16:39:44 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4AA053C0.14979.1A6A0DF@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2009 at 15:57, Eric Smith wrote: > Yes, but they only worked on point-to-point leased lines with > significantly greater bandwidth than normal voice-grade PSTN (Public > Switched Telephone Network) lines. Expensive stuff. I recall that the cost circa 1982 of a 9600 bps synchronous (209 modems) leased line between Santa Clara and Minneapolis was about $5K per month. (1982 dollars, yet). Of course that included the modem rental. While the protocol for the 209 was synchronous, I recall that there was another bit of gear (TDM?) that could take that 9600 bps and give you several channels of async 300, 1200 or 2400 bps. Time has a funny way of distorting values without one even realizing that it's happening.. Yesterday I picked up a 20" LCD monitor (NEC 2010) that carried an MSRP of $4995 in 1999. Still works just fine, but you'd be lucky to get $50 for it today. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Sep 3 19:21:10 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:21:10 -0400 Subject: Paging Jay West In-Reply-To: <009801ca1645$e114ed40$c600a8c0@JWEST> References: <4A78CC7D.3080500@compsys.to><200908050120.23442.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A7A15F5.9000408@compsys.to> <009801ca1645$e114ed40$c600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <4AA05D76.2050103@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > Yes, saw the original emails Jerome. I read each the day you sent > them, but they didn't seem super time-sensitive so I've been dealing > with a few other things. Sorry for the slow response! > > (In my best monty python voice) But I'm not dead yet! It has now been another week. In addition, it is now after September 1st, 2009, so you can proceed if you wish to do so. Since I can check when the process is complete, you don't even have to post a reply!! If there is any addition information that you require, please ask. Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 3 19:47:17 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 20:47:17 -0400 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4AA053C0.14979.1A6A0DF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> <4AA053C0.14979.1A6A0DF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 3, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Time has a funny way of distorting values without one even realizing > that it's happening.. Yesterday I picked up a 20" LCD monitor (NEC > 2010) that carried an MSRP of $4995 in 1999. Still works just fine, > but you'd be lucky to get $50 for it today. Thus illustrating the difference between "worthless" and "useless". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 3 20:06:15 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 21:06:15 -0400 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sep 3, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > AFAIK, the first commercially available modem for voice-grade PSTN > to achieve 9600 bps or more was the Telebit Trailblazer, introduced > in 1985. It was half-duplex at approximately 18,000 bps (peak) > with a low bit rate reverse channel. The firmware automatically > did line turnarounds based on buffer depths, so it simulated full > duplex but with relatively high latency. > > The Trailblazer used proprietary Packetized Ensemble Protocol > (PEP), which used up to 512 narrow-band carriers. It was a > forerunner of OFDM modulation, which is now used for 802.11a/g/n > and many other high performance data radio applications. > > The Trailblazer is a 6 baud modem! :-) > > A baud is a symbol per second, NOT a bit per second. A symbol can > encode multiple bits, and in PEP modulation a symbol encodes > thousands of bits. For comparison, a V.32 9600 bps modem actually > communicates at 2400 baud, with four bits per symbol (16-point > constellation). And there's a 68K under the hood! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 3 20:10:48 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:10:48 -0600 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke In-Reply-To: References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> I want a all TUBE modem. :) Ben. PS. To go with my all tube computer of course. PPS. Even a all tube computer has solid state diodes. From steve at radiorobots.com Thu Sep 3 20:19:10 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:19:10 -0400 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke In-Reply-To: <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA06B0E.4060101@radiorobots.com> You might like a CV-89. It is essentially an all tube modem. Obviously, one can argue that the associated RTTY machine performs coding functions. Steve Ben wrote: > I want a all TUBE modem. :) > Ben. > PS. To go with my all tube computer of course. > PPS. Even a all tube computer has solid state diodes. > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 3 20:19:35 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 20:19:35 -0500 Subject: Old IDE to USB? In-Reply-To: <95a553ad268706e5bc44410fc52b5579.squirrel@webmail.feedle.n et> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> <5D0CEAD9-8921-488F-B32E-6E2C32188505@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20090903163804.03b1dcd8@mail.threedee.com> <95a553ad268706e5bc44410fc52b5579.squirrel@webmail.feedle.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903200836.040fb828@mail.threedee.com> At 05:06 PM 9/3/2009, feedle at feedle.net wrote: >> And they'll correctly identify and mount an elderly IDE that >> doesn't specify its geometry when queried? > >No, they won't. I've personally even had problems with modern on-board >IDE not working with older drives. Has anyone ever seen a USB-to-IDE adapter that can handle the old drives and devices, presumably by allowing you to specify the Cyl/Hd/Sec? After reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA , I'm surprised to see that although IDE drives appeared in the late 80s, the ATA-1 standard didn't arrive until 1994. Based on the chart there, I'm guessing that today's USB-to-IDE devices (as well as near-recent onboard IDE) simply don't support the old PIO transfers and only handle the post-1998 ultra DMA transfers? - John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 3 20:29:40 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:29:40 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA06D85.47F113CC@cs.ubc.ca> Ben wrote: > > I want a all TUBE modem. :) > Ben. > PS. To go with my all tube computer of course. > PPS. Even a all tube computer has solid state diodes. They are out there in the form of RTTY FSK devices from the 50's or earlier. We have a couple at (the) radio museum, I have to keep others from throwing them out. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 3 20:55:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 18:55:40 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, <4AA053C0.14979.1A6A0DF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4AA0739C.30488.223143F@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2009 at 20:47, Dave McGuire wrote: > Thus illustrating the difference between "worthless" and "useless". Yeah, but why can't I still get "lifeline" phone service for $3 a month? If the decreasing cost of technology still applied, it'd cost me about the price of a pack of chewing gum today. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 3 21:04:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 19:04:07 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke In-Reply-To: <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, , <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA07597.6466.22AD0A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2009 at 19:10, Ben wrote: > I want a all TUBE modem. :) > Ben. > PS. To go with my all tube computer of course. > PPS. Even a all tube computer has solid state diodes. Well, I seem to remember that the old Bell Dataphones (e.g. 401E) didn't have much in the way of active components in them. One using tubes should be very easy to work out. Getting it type-approved would be another kettle of fish. Wonder if you can still get a DAA? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 22:35:59 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 23:35:59 -0400 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke In-Reply-To: <4AA06D85.47F113CC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA06D85.47F113CC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: >> I want a all TUBE modem. :) >> Ben. > They are out there in the form of RTTY FSK devices from the 50's or earlier. > > We have a couple at (the) radio museum, I have to keep others from throwing > them out. I have so many old tube modems that I have started scrapping them. Nobody wants them. Even the Greenkeys guys have their fill. My oldest is a 1941 FuG E3, used (probably) to encode Lorenz-cipher traffic for the German military. I will not be scrapping that - I am always looking for info on it, but my hopes are low. I really hate to part this stuff out, but if nobody wants the things, I figure whatever I can get will be turned into money that can be used to save other things. Scrap a tube modem, save a Cyber - hey, that justification works for me lately. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 22:44:35 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 23:44:35 -0400 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke In-Reply-To: <4AA07597.6466.22AD0A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA07597.6466.22AD0A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Well, I seem to remember that the old Bell Dataphones (e.g. 401E) > didn't have much in the way of active components in them. ?One using > tubes should be very easy to work out. Not hard. The military AN/FGC-5 is pretty straightforward, except for Teletype's retarded decision to use a magnetically controlled triode. The rest is textbook dual-triode and mini-thyratron stuff. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 22:53:53 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 23:53:53 -0400 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke In-Reply-To: <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > PPS. Even a all tube computer has solid state diodes. It did not have to. There are computer rated 6AL5s. I forget the number. And if you expand on Roger's (yes, from the Great White North) 6074 (number?) Addatron concept, you do not need any diodes to provide gating for logic functions. A complete full adder in a nine pin mini tube, all done with steering the electron beams in a very clever way. Certainly you could make all sorts of different gates by moving the elements around. -- Will From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Sep 3 23:43:26 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 00:43:26 -0400 Subject: switching power supply Q Message-ID: <4AA09AEE.8000405@hawkmountain.net> So, the problem with my OKIStation is the power supply. 5V is solid... but 12V was only putting out 8.5 volts (with no drive load attempted... unsure if the motherboard uses 12V for anything). I have found there is an adjust for 12V, I have not touched it as of yet. In getting that far, that small pot, 2-3 resistors, a 3 legged "IC1" (NEC C1093) and that area of the PCB have an light oily film on them. The IC1 and the little pot seemed the worse. I'm not sure what this could be... I've never seen a transistor/IC/ etc emit an oily film... I can't see it coming from the trim pot, and even though there are a few nearby capacitors... they don't have a film on them.... and I've only seen capacitors ooze brown scum. If there are no failing components, then either the trim pot has gone dirty... or that "oil" ? has got into it and is causing it to ohm out wrong. As there is no way I'd find another of these supplies, my only option is to fix it. Anyone got any ideas as to the oily film ? Looking up IC1 on the net I find http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/6668/NEC/C1093.html which indicates it is an adjustable precision shunt regulator. In the test and application circuit section of the pdf, this device goes across Vout. If this is acting up, for testing purposes it would seem to be safe to remove it to see if the voltage changes (jumps back to around 12V) ? The oily film puzzles me... I don't see any sign of bad caps... and this power supply seems to be well engineered (has temp probes on the switching transistors presumably to shut down the supply should things get too hot). Being a three board supply design with several connections soldered ... it hasn't been a joy to get apart this far :-) So, suggestions, ideas on the film, and best way to go about troubleshooting the 12V rail are welcome :-) Thanks, -- Curt From highfell at googlemail.com Thu Sep 3 16:29:42 2009 From: highfell at googlemail.com (Nigel) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 22:29:42 +0100 Subject: Free (for postage) TI 59 calculator Message-ID: <42946C1F-B965-4CD4-9E7D-5F9F45C2D424@googlemail.com> Hi Is your TI 59 still available ? Cheers Nigel From iamvirtual at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 22:43:09 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 21:43:09 -0600 Subject: Teletype ASR33 with modem Message-ID: <2645f9870909032043j3aeacbacmdb2d805db6c9c02c@mail.gmail.com> I am looking for information for my recently acquired ASR33 that has an Anderson Jacobson modem (ADT-233) built into it. I have retrieved the documents for the base ASR33 from Bitsavers and University of Queensland, but it doesn't look like any of the manuals describe the modem. The modem is complete with the acoustical coupler. :-) The modem does have a Teletype sticker on it and describes it as a UCC-6. I need to know how to hook the ASR33 to my PDP-11 using a 20mA connection. I am looking for user guides, technical details and schematics. Thanks! --barrym From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 4 02:40:44 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 09:40:44 +0200 Subject: VAXStation 4000/90A In-Reply-To: <4AA01F3A.6080304@update.uu.se> References: <4AA01F3A.6080304@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20090904094044.dabfd842.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 03 Sep 2009 21:55:38 +0200 Pontus wrote: > During the self test I get this: > > ?? 000 8 SYS 0512 Looks like this machine has booted NetBSD quite some time ago. Older versions of NetBSD probe for the DZ11 device at bootup. Even on a VS4k where the DZ11 is not available. This results in a damaged boot Flash-ROM. It isn't that critical. The machine still works, but refuses to autoboot. The fix is simple: Reflash the ROM. I can supply a net bootable self executing flash image if you can't find it on the net: vs4000-90A_firmware.zip Just boot it via MOP and the problem will disappear. Instructions inside the ZIP. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From lee at geekdot.com Fri Sep 4 05:10:28 2009 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:10:28 +0100 Subject: switching power supply Q Message-ID: <4AA0E794.4080103@geekdot.com> > Anyone got any ideas as to the oily film ? Most likely it is from a capacitor. > If this is acting up, for testing purposes it would seem to be safe > to remove it to see if the voltage changes (jumps back to around 12V) ? No, that would remove all regulation from the 12V rail. You can test this part out of circuit. Connect REF to K, pins 1 and 3 on the TO92 part, and these two to +5V through a 680 or 1K ohm resistor. Connect A, pin 2,to ground. With the 5V on you should read 2.495V +/-2% between K and A. This part can be replaced by a TL431, LM431 or equivalent. > So, suggestions, ideas on the film, and best way to go about > troubleshooting the 12V rail are welcome :-) An ESR meter to test caps is pretty much essential. Some obviously fail but others can look fine but still be high R. Electrolytics are by far the biggest single cause of switch mode supply failure. Lee. From rescue at hawkmountain.net Fri Sep 4 08:16:44 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:16:44 -0400 Subject: switching power supply Q In-Reply-To: <4AA0E794.4080103@geekdot.com> References: <4AA0E794.4080103@geekdot.com> Message-ID: <4AA1133C.8040209@hawkmountain.net> Lee Davison wrote: > > > Anyone got any ideas as to the oily film ? > > Most likely it is from a capacitor. > > > If this is acting up, for testing purposes it would seem to be safe > > to remove it to see if the voltage changes (jumps back to around 12V) ? > > No, that would remove all regulation from the 12V rail. If wired per the reference in the PDF... for testing with no devices attached (will prob need a dummy load for 5V I'd imagine) to see if the part is what is causing the voltage to drop to 8.5V. Not to actually use. This is also a small part... wouldn't it be dissipating a large amount of current clamping the rail from 12+V to 8.5V ? How would it survive ? There are no heatsinks/etc ... I'd imagine this is to eliminate overvoltage situtations ? > > You can test this part out of circuit. Connect REF to K, pins 1 and 3 on > the TO92 part, and these two to +5V through a 680 or 1K ohm resistor. > Connect A, pin 2,to ground. With the 5V on you should read 2.495V +/-2% > between K and A. > > This part can be replaced by a TL431, LM431 or equivalent. Good to know > > > So, suggestions, ideas on the film, and best way to go about > > troubleshooting the 12V rail are welcome :-) > > An ESR meter to test caps is pretty much essential. Some obviously > fail but others can look fine but still be high R. Electrolytics > are by far the biggest single cause of switch mode supply failure. > I have an ESR meter. Have you ever seen a cap 'leak' oil ? This looks like a film of light machine oil. And the caps have none on them... the part with the most on it is the C1093... but I've never seen a semiconductor device leak 'oil' ? The only other component with a lot of this 'oil' on it is the 12V adj pot. Doubt this 'oil' got there by human intervention.... as it is on the inside end of the power supply (you need to take apart the computer and almost take the power supply out to really get to this end of the supply. Guess I'll have to plan on pulling the caps to see if they could be the source of the leak.... but if so... I'd imagine they should have a film on them too, no ? And of course they have that white 'glue' between them (more like a hard caulk than glue I guess ?).... what is that for anyway ? Thanks for the reply.... I'm hopefully it won't be too hard a fix. Guess the toughest will be if the 'oil' contaminated the 12V adj pot... in which case hopefully it won't be too hard to get the same pot to replace it with. -- Curt > Lee. > From lee at geekdot.com Fri Sep 4 08:50:27 2009 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 14:50:27 +0100 Subject: switching power supply Q Message-ID: <4AA11B23.9070805@geekdot.com> >>> If this is acting up, for testing purposes it would seem to be safe >>> to remove it to see if the voltage changes (jumps back to around >>> 12V) ? >> No, that would remove all regulation from the 12V rail. > If wired per the reference in the PDF... for testing with no devices > attached (will prob need a dummy load for 5V I'd imagine) to see if > the part is what is causing the voltage to drop to 8.5V. Not to > actually use. I still wouldn't do it, some SMPSs can self destruct without feedback. > This is also a small part... wouldn't it be dissipating a large amount > of current clamping the rail from 12+V to 8.5V? No, it's not used as a clamp like that. The 12V will be divided down by some R and the pot so that normally 2.5V would be on the REF pin. The K pin then sinks current that is the feedback to regulate the voltage. This is often the LED side of an optoisolator. > I have an ESR meter. So do I. I wish I'd got one years earlier with the effort it has saved since. > Have you ever seen a cap 'leak' oil? I've seen all kinds of strange substances leak out of caps including oil, wax and what looked and felt like oily, grey cotton wool. > but I've never seen a semiconductor device leak 'oil'? Some RF power modules are mineral oil filled but I've not seen it in a discrete device. > Guess I'll have to plan on pulling the caps to see if they could > be the source of the leak.... I'd measure ESR first then only pull random caps if nothing showed up. > but if so... I'd imagine they should have a film on them too, no? It depends, it may have evaporated from around a hot capacitor. If that's where it came from. > And of course they have that white 'glue' between them (more like > a hard caulk than glue I guess ?).... what is that for anyway ? Mostly to annoy me I think. Lee. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 08:53:35 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 08:53:35 -0500 Subject: Another "oldest computer" story... In-Reply-To: <4AA04545.C3D1ADDF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4AA00661.8000304@gmail.com> <4AA04545.C3D1ADDF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4AA11BDF.5000705@gmail.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > This sounds interesting, but is there anything easily accessible that gives a > technical or architectural overview? I've asked - I'm sure there's piles of physical docs for the machine, but maybe there's some sort of quick "technical overview" which can be scanned and put online. (I agree; I'm certainly as interested - if not more - in the system operation than the history of how it was used or came into being) Will post here if anything turns up (as I'm physically 3500 miles away from the system my hands are somewhat tied :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 09:54:46 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:54:46 -0500 Subject: Another "oldest computer" story... In-Reply-To: <4AA11BDF.5000705@gmail.com> References: <4AA00661.8000304@gmail.com> <4AA04545.C3D1ADDF@cs.ubc.ca> <4AA11BDF.5000705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA12A36.9040603@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Will post here if anything turns up (as I'm physically 3500 miles away > from the system my hands are somewhat tied :-) Aha - all the geeky technical stuff's on the CCS pages covering the machine: http://www.computerconservationsociety.org/witch.htm ... knock yourself out :-) cheers J. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Sep 4 10:09:42 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 16:09:42 +0100 Subject: Another "oldest computer" story... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FDB3DD7-403F-46AE-87A5-FA95F33BCFAD@microspot.co.uk> > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Another "oldest computer" story... > > [I've not been reading the list for a little while, so apologies if > this has > been mentioned already] > > The Harwell Dekatron Computer - aka. WITCH - has just arrived at > TNMoC for > restoration. Once completed, it'll be (as far as we know) the oldest > functional, complete, stored-program electronic machine in the world > (some > careful qualifying there, because of course it's one of a handful of > 'pioneering' machines, all of which have their place in history). > > Lots of links to news items on the machine at: > > http://www.tnmoc.org/inthenews.aspx > > Plans for the machine date from 1949, with it first running in 1951. > Wikipedia > background info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WITCH_(computer) The relays look similar to the ones my 1301 uses to switch the signals to the front panel indicators and peripheral interlocks (so mine only switch at human speed). Even the markings on the relays look very familiar. I hope they are more reliable than mine though, as the machine seems to be using them for actual computations. I suppose they would be fine with routine maintenance, usually consisting of dragging a bit of punched card between the closed points. Roger Holmes. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 4 10:17:37 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:17:37 -0600 Subject: Another "oldest computer" story... In-Reply-To: <1FDB3DD7-403F-46AE-87A5-FA95F33BCFAD@microspot.co.uk> References: <1FDB3DD7-403F-46AE-87A5-FA95F33BCFAD@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4AA12F91.4040306@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > The relays look similar to the ones my 1301 uses to switch the signals > to the front panel indicators and peripheral interlocks (so mine only > switch at human speed). Even the markings on the relays look very > familiar. I hope they are more reliable than mine though, as the machine > seems to be using them for actual computations. I suppose they would be > fine with routine maintenance, usually consisting of dragging a bit of > punched card between the closed points. Well at a 2 sec add time, I don't expect relay problems. Still if the photo is of the whole computer, it is a small machine for a valve system. > Roger Holmes. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 4 10:20:09 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 09:20:09 -0600 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke In-Reply-To: References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA13029.4050905@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >> PPS. Even a all tube computer has solid state diodes. > > It did not have to. There are computer rated 6AL5s. I forget the number. > > And if you expand on Roger's (yes, from the Great White North) 6074 > (number?) Addatron concept, you do not need any diodes to provide > gating for logic functions. A complete full adder in a nine pin mini > tube, all done with steering the electron beams in a very clever way. > Certainly you could make all sorts of different gates by moving the > elements around. Any tubes around I wonder ... make a nice demo machine. > -- > Will > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 10:26:23 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 11:26:23 -0400 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke In-Reply-To: <4AA13029.4050905@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA13029.4050905@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Any tubes around I wonder ... make a nice demo machine. As far as we tube collectors know, Rogers made a bomb - none of us have actually seen an Addatron, just the data sheet and EIA registrations. It is likely it was introduced just too late for any of the computer makers to pick up on. -- Will From trag at io.com Fri Sep 4 11:35:27 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 11:35:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Old IDE to USB? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:32:25 -0500 > From: John Foust > > Late 80s, early 90s IDE drives don't show up on the IDE-to-USB adapters > I'm using for other applications these days. This may not apply to your case but... Remember that old Western Digital drives will not work unless you use the "Single" jumper setting on the drive. Setting them to Master in a single-drive setting does not work. For that matter, did you set the Master/Slave/Single jumper? Older drives are also less likely to work with Cable Select. Jeff Walther From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 4 12:33:52 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 10:33:52 -0700 Subject: Another "oldest computer" story... References: <4AA00661.8000304@gmail.com> <4AA04545.C3D1ADDF@cs.ubc.ca> <4AA11BDF.5000705@gmail.com> <4AA12A36.9040603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA14F80.8E851108@cs.ubc.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Aha - all the geeky technical stuff's on the CCS pages covering the machine: > > http://www.computerconservationsociety.org/witch.htm That's a little more interesting; looks more like a hybrid machine, similar to, or more along the lines of, the SSEC. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 4 13:10:05 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:10:05 -0700 Subject: Telebit trailblazer (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal) In-Reply-To: References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4AA157FD.7090105@brouhaha.com> I wrote; > AFAIK, the first commercially available modem for voice-grade PSTN to > achieve 9600 bps or more was the Telebit Trailblazer, introduced in 1985. Dave McGuire wrote: > And there's a 68K under the hood! Everyone makes a big deal about that, but all the interesting work was being done by the TMS32010 DSP. The 68K was just supervising and running the error control and compression. The prototype used a 6809 processor for control, and a DSP section using a TRW multiplier chip, a lot of TTL, and some high-speed memory. I donated the last remaining prototype board to CHM a few years ago. Paul Baran, the inventor of packet switching and founder of Telebit, authenticated it. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 4 13:10:57 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:10:57 -0700 Subject: tube computers (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA15831.5000109@brouhaha.com> Ben wrote: > PPS. Even a all tube computer has solid state diodes. Some did, some didn't. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 4 13:15:56 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 11:15:56 -0700 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <4AA07597.6466.22AD0A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, , <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA07597.6466.22AD0A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA1595C.8050902@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wonder if you can still get a DAA? Not as a standalone piece of equipment, except for surplus. But you can still get DAA modules and chips: http://www.cermetek.com/Catalog/Telephone-Line-Interface/ https://www.silabs.com/products/voice/daa/Pages/default.aspx Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 4 13:02:33 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 19:02:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <76D7BD1AE91C433FA72DB20DBBA46E3A@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 3, 9 10:27:42 pm Message-ID: > I have the signature analyser and the logic comparator. > The signature analyser is usefull if you have a HP equipment with the > according serv. Manual under test. Sure, the service manuals often give the signatures. So you connect up the signature analyser (start/stop/clock leads) and stick the probe on a given point. If the signature agrees with the one in the manual, fine. If it doesn't, then what? OK, there's a fault, but in a lot of complicated systesm, particularly if state-machine or microprocessor based, a fault just about anywherre will corrupt all the signatures, So how do you determine which device has actually failed? > Fault finding goes rather quick then, the logic comparator is only usefull > with clock frequenties below aprox. 10Mhz above that the cable impedance is > to big. > Using a Fluke 9100A boardtester is much more usefull, because you can test > in cuircit ram, drivers and processor. > I keep the HP stuff for collecting purpose ;-) To be honest, if I saw either instrument at a low-ish price (including shipping!), I'd probably buy it. I like HP stuff :-) > And it's nicely build... You do not need to tell me that :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 4 13:11:13 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 19:11:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Omrom programmable terminal -joke In-Reply-To: <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Sep 3, 9 07:10:48 pm Message-ID: > > I want a all TUBE modem. :) I don;t see why that's particularly difficult (or indeed novel). One of my old modems (A 'Modem 2B' for those who care) uses discrete transistors, LC filters, and relays for the control circuitry. It usses the normal CCITT 300 baud tones, and will work with many more modern modems. It would be pretty easy to make that sort of thing using valves. Radio amateurs (at least over here) used valved FSK modulators and demodulators for RTTY work (Radio TeleTYpe). Although they didn't use the normal tones you'd use on the phone systemm, I claim those are modems. I am pretty sure some old RSGB Radio Communication Handbooks (and maybe the RSGB Teleprinter Handbook) contain schematics. Maybe similar ARRL books do too, I don't have them. > Ben. > PS. To go with my all tube computer of course. > PPS. Even a all tube computer has solid state diodes. I see no reason why it has to use solid-state diodes. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 4 13:23:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 14:23:00 -0400 Subject: Telebit trailblazer (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal) In-Reply-To: <4AA157FD.7090105@brouhaha.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4A9FFC85.20207@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA049C0.4050900@brouhaha.com> <4AA157FD.7090105@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sep 4, 2009, at 2:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > AFAIK, the first commercially available modem for voice-grade > PSTN to > > achieve 9600 bps or more was the Telebit Trailblazer, introduced > in 1985. > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > And there's a 68K under the hood! > > Everyone makes a big deal about that, but all the interesting work > was being > done by the TMS32010 DSP. The 68K was just supervising and running > the error control and compression. I just think it's neat. :) > The prototype used a 6809 processor for control, and a DSP section > using a > TRW multiplier chip, a lot of TTL, and some high-speed memory. I > donated > the last remaining prototype board to CHM a few years ago. Paul > Baran, > the inventor of packet switching and founder of Telebit, > authenticated it. I remember your talking about that some time ago. That's amazingly cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 4 13:23:29 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 11:23:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <4AA1595C.8050902@brouhaha.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, , <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA07597.6466.22AD0A7@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1595C.8050902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> > > Wonder if you can still get a DAA? On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Eric Smith wrote: > Not as a standalone piece of equipment, except for surplus. But you can > still get DAA modules and chips: > http://www.cermetek.com/Catalog/Telephone-Line-Interface/ > https://www.silabs.com/products/voice/daa/Pages/default.aspx Unless you are going for some ridiculously high speed, like over 300 bits per second, that wouldn't work with acoustic coupling, why would you need a DAA? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 4 14:01:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 12:01:15 -0700 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, <4AA1595C.8050902@brouhaha.com>, <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AA163FB.26360.D70808@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2009 at 11:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > Unless you are going for some ridiculously high speed, like over 300 > bits per second, that wouldn't work with acoustic coupling, why would > you need a DAA? How many modern handsets can even fit an acoustic coupler? The one in my workshop is one, but then it's an old rotary dial wall model. Even the rotary dial Trimline that I have in the garage won't work with an acoustic coupler. I think I've got a 2500 series desk set stashed away somewhere... --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Sep 4 14:50:56 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 12:50:56 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: References: <76D7BD1AE91C433FA72DB20DBBA46E3A@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 3, 9 10:27:42 pm Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 11:03 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Omrom programmable terminal > > > I have the signature analyser and the logic comparator. > > The signature analyser is usefull if you have a HP equipment with the > > according serv. Manual under test. > > Sure, the service manuals often give the signatures. So you connect up > the signature analyser (start/stop/clock leads) and stick the probe on > a > given point. If the signature agrees with the one in the manual, fine. > If > it doesn't, then what? OK, there's a fault, but in a lot of complicated > systesm, particularly if state-machine or microprocessor based, a fault > just about anywherre will corrupt all the signatures, So how do you > determine which device has actually failed? > Why, if you're an authorized [insert company here] field service engineer, you replace the entire subunit containing the offending component, of course. -- Ian From doc at vaxen.net Fri Sep 4 15:04:31 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:04:31 -0500 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <4AA163FB.26360.D70808@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, <4AA1595C.8050902@brouhaha.com>, <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> <4AA163FB.26360.D70808@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA172CF.6030200@vaxen.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Sep 2009 at 11:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Unless you are going for some ridiculously high speed, like over 300 >> bits per second, that wouldn't work with acoustic coupling, why would >> you need a DAA? > > How many modern handsets can even fit an acoustic coupler? The one > in my workshop is one, but then it's an old rotary dial wall model. > Even the rotary dial Trimline that I have in the garage won't work > with an acoustic coupler. I think I've got a 2500 series desk set > stashed away somewhere... http://www.uncrate.com/men/gear/cell-phones/bluetooth-retro-handset/ Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 4 15:34:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 13:34:32 -0700 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <4AA172CF.6030200@vaxen.net> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, <4AA163FB.26360.D70808@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AA172CF.6030200@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4AA179D8.20390.12C6F70@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2009 at 15:04, Doc Shipley wrote: > http://www.uncrate.com/men/gear/cell-phones/bluetooth-retro-handset/ Oh now, that's just sick! --Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 4 16:41:37 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 16:41:37 -0500 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <4AA163FB.26360.D70808@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4AA1595C.8050902@brouhaha.com> <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost> At 12:01 PM 9/4/2009 -0700, you wrote: >On 4 Sep 2009 at 11:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Unless you are going for some ridiculously high speed, like over 300 > > bits per second, that wouldn't work with acoustic coupling, why would > > you need a DAA? > >How many modern handsets can even fit an acoustic coupler? The one >in my workshop is one, but then it's an old rotary dial wall model. >Even the rotary dial Trimline that I have in the garage won't work >with an acoustic coupler. I think I've got a 2500 series desk set >stashed away somewhere... I have to place an order for 2500 sets every 6-8 months. I order about 5 at a time. Wish I could remember the brand I got last time. Had one die after 15 days- mechanical bell-chime ringer wouldn't work, checked continuity to the coil, all good, still no ringy-dingy. I work for a public transit property. ----- 231. [Internet] .sigs are the bumper stickers of the information superhighway. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 4 16:56:01 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:56:01 -0600 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost> References: <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com> <4AA1595C.8050902@brouhaha.com> <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost> Message-ID: <4AA18CF1.3060700@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Peters wrote: > I have to place an order for 2500 sets every 6-8 months. I order about 5 > at a time. Wish I could remember the brand I got last time. Had one die > after 15 days- mechanical bell-chime ringer wouldn't work, checked > continuity to the coil, all good, still no ringy-dingy. > > I work for a public transit property. > Laugh In: One Ringy-Dingy ... From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 4 17:15:15 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:15:15 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop vac for $19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. They have one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the tool aisle for $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from Atlanta bought them too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know the pros and cons of the unit. Sorry about the shill. ----- 83. I have a flawless philosophical and scientific model of reality. Unfortunately, it's actual size. We must never be dogmatic. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Will betray country for food. --.sig of mathew at mantis (moderator of alt.atheism.moderated) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 4 17:35:46 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 16:35:46 -0600 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: <4AA19642.9080003@jetnet.ab.ca> Now SUCK UP THOSE DUST BUNNIES ! PS. Is this a made in America product? From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 4 17:36:43 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 18:36:43 -0400 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Peters" To: Sent: Friday, September 04, 2009 6:15 PM Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop vac for $19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. They have one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the tool aisle for $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from Atlanta bought them too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know the pros and cons of the unit. Sorry about the shill. So does it have a Z80 inside? ;) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 4 17:44:03 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 16:44:03 -0600 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: <4AA19833.8080904@jetnet.ab.ca> no Z80, just paper tape holes. :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 4 18:14:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 16:14:50 -0700 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost> References: <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net>, <4AA163FB.26360.D70808@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost> Message-ID: <4AA19F6A.10037.1BF3143@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2009 at 16:41, Tom Peters wrote: > I have to place an order for 2500 sets every 6-8 months. I order about > 5 at a time. Wish I could remember the brand I got last time. Had one > die after 15 days- mechanical bell-chime ringer wouldn't work, checked > continuity to the coil, all good, still no ringy-dingy. Other than the old WE ones, ITT made some decent ones. Wonder where these new ones are made... Is your need for 2500 sets because of some peculiar ancient key system requirement? --Chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Sep 4 18:16:28 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:16:28 -0400 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: <4AA19FCC.5020003@nktelco.net> Tom Peters wrote: > Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop vac > for $19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. > They have one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the > tool aisle for $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from > Atlanta bought them too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know > the pros and cons of the unit. > > Sorry about the shill. I got one very similar several years ago for Christmas (12 gal, 4.5 hp Rigid). How does one make it static safe? or is that even possible? -chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 4 18:16:50 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 16:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <4AA163FB.26360.D70808@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, <4AA1595C.8050902@brouhaha.com>, <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> <4AA163FB.26360.D70808@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090904160617.S14343@shell.lmi.net> > > Unless you are going for some ridiculously high speed, like over 300 > > bits per second, that wouldn't work with acoustic coupling, why would > > you need a DAA? On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How many modern handsets can even fit an acoustic coupler? The one > in my workshop is one, but then it's an old rotary dial wall model. > Even the rotary dial Trimline that I have in the garage won't work > with an acoustic coupler. I think I've got a 2500 series desk set > stashed away somewhere... I have seen acoustic couplers that fit the newer squared-off handsets. Somebody said that those are a "type K"; is that correct? And, at Oakland airport [2 years ago], I saw a hotels display that had a phone as part of it for making reservations. It had a Krown TTY (one of the cheapest TDDs), that had been manually cut and glued to make its coupler fit the squared-off handset! If somebody is putting together a tube (valve) based modem, would it be likely that somebody with that many tubes might also have a normal handset? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 4 18:17:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 19:17:56 -0400 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: <391F793F-B55D-4193-8A9C-8E5869CD8679@neurotica.com> On Sep 4, 2009, at 6:15 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop > vac for $19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home > Depot. They have one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, > 3.5hp) in the tool aisle for $58. This was in the front of the > store. Someone from Atlanta bought them too, I'm in WI. If anyone > asks, I'll let you know the pros and cons of the unit. I have one of these; it works quite well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 4 18:18:09 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 19:18:09 -0400 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA19642.9080003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA19642.9080003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <8CF3C818-C47F-4DF1-AFC6-9046DBAFD9D8@neurotica.com> On Sep 4, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Ben wrote: > PS. Is this a made in America product? BWAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 4 18:20:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 16:20:50 -0700 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: <4AA1A0D2.28679.1C4B119@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2009 at 17:15, Tom Peters wrote: > Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop vac > for $19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. > They have one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the > tool aisle for $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from > Atlanta bought them too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know > the pros and cons of the unit. So, in today's "who gives a damn about what ratings really mean" world, exactly what does a 3.5 HP rating mean? My table saw has a 3 HP rating on the capacitor-start motor nameplate and there's no way I could run it from a 120V circuit without popping a breaker, if that was even possible. Is it like the rating on consumer vacuum cleaners--12 amps, but only if you stick a crowbar into the works and lock the rotor? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 18:38:25 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:38:25 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: <4AA1A4F1.1050601@gmail.com> Tom Peters wrote: > Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop vac > for $19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. > They have one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the > tool aisle for $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from > Atlanta bought them too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know > the pros and cons of the unit. Hmm, karma, or something. I was just staring at a vacuum cleaner motor and empty 5 gallon paint can earlier in the workshop's junk pile and thinking of possibilities (actually along the lines of dust extraction for my miter saw - the lack of any being the main reason I'd want a shop vac). I happen to be off to HD in a minute, too... I have a feeling though that the front-of-store offers are set to a certain extent locally according to what inventory they have, what's slow-moving etc., so they may not be that price everywhere. cheers J. From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 4 18:53:07 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:53:07 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA19FCC.5020003@nktelco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904184811.02350988@localhost> At 07:16 PM 9/4/2009 -0400, you wrote: >Tom Peters wrote: >>Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop vac for >>$19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. They >>have one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the tool >>aisle for $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from Atlanta >>bought them too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know the pros >>and cons of the unit. >> >>Sorry about the shill. >I got one very similar several years ago for Christmas (12 gal, 4.5 hp >Rigid). How does one make it static safe? or is that even possible? > >-chuck I have read extensively about the dangers of static discharge in shop dust handling systems. Seems all that moving particulate inside an ABS or PVC pipe generates a tremendous static discharge potential. Most books recommend snaking stranded copper wire down the inside of the 4-to-6" hose and pipe used on such systems. You bring it out at the joints, smear the holes with silicone RTV, and wire-nut it all together. I'd imagine you can do something similar with a shop-vac, just use #14 or #16 wire instead of the #10 they recommend for shop dust systems. One would have to get into the motor assembly to find a ground, since that's as far as the line cord goes. There's no metal anywhere on the beast, outside the motor and impeller, so you'd have to have a ground wire in the bucket too. ----- 604. [Science] In the pure and physical sciences each generation inherits the consequences made by its predecessors, but in the moral sciences, particularly the arts of administration, the ground seems never to be incontestably won. --Unknown --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 4 18:58:40 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:58:40 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1A4F1.1050601@gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904185402.03958ec8@localhost> At 06:38 PM 9/4/2009 -0500, you wrote: >Tom Peters wrote: >>Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop vac for >>$19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. They >>have one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the tool >>aisle for $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from Atlanta >>bought them too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know the pros >>and cons of the unit. > >Hmm, karma, or something. I was just staring at a vacuum cleaner motor and >empty 5 gallon paint can earlier in the workshop's junk pile and thinking >of possibilities (actually along the lines of dust extraction for my miter >saw - the lack of any being the main reason I'd want a shop vac). > >I happen to be off to HD in a minute, too... > >I have a feeling though that the front-of-store offers are set to a >certain extent locally according to what inventory they have, what's >slow-moving etc., so they may not be that price everywhere. I saw the tip on slickdeals.net, which will normally say in big letters if it's a regional or local deal. ----- 1008. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. -- Al Gore describing his 1986 legislation to interconnect five supercomputer centers (17 years after the first Internet servers hooked up) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 19:16:10 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 19:16:10 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1A0D2.28679.1C4B119@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1A0D2.28679.1C4B119@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909041716x1cfe3952w9bfb0c1d21bc63f7@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 6:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, in today's "who gives a damn about what ratings really mean" > world, exactly what does a 3.5 HP rating mean? ? My table saw has a 3 > HP rating on the capacitor-start motor nameplate and there's no way I > could run it from a 120V circuit without popping a breaker, if that > was even possible. > > Is it like the rating on consumer vacuum cleaners--12 amps, but only > if you stick a crowbar into the works and lock the rotor? I'm seriously into woodworking. The subject of "marketing" horsepower comes up all the time. Basically, there's two horsepower ratings. One is the rating that generally gets applied to induction motors like on larger woodworking machinery. The other generally gets applied to universal motors. How do you tell the difference? Induction motors are bigger and hum nicely and quietly. Universal motors are smaller, but sound like 1000 eviscerated cats, loud enough to wake the dead. That marketing horsepower rating is technically, under a very specific scenario, correct.... believe it or not. But it's a useless number. IIRC, it comes from the power spike that happens right when you grab the shaft of the motor. So essentially, it's a useless power rating. I might be off on the description. I'm not an EE and I got a frightfully low grade in physics. Don't believe anything sears says about horsepower ratings. They're famous for making up their own horsepower terminology. The absolute maximum that a typical 20amp 110v power line could sustain is around 1.5hp. But that number is affected by other things such as load on the motor and the length of the power cord. Just last weekend, I installed a 100amp subpanel in my garage to power the wood shop. I have 3 separate 220v lines, two are 30 amp and one is 20 amp. The 30 amp lines are for the 5hp motor in the dust collector and the 6.5hp motor in the compressor. The 20 amp line is for the smaller 220 tools with 3hp motors. My biggest router is 3hp and plugs into a 110 line. ;-) brian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 4 19:22:14 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:22:14 -0600 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <8CF3C818-C47F-4DF1-AFC6-9046DBAFD9D8@neurotica.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA19642.9080003@jetnet.ab.ca> <8CF3C818-C47F-4DF1-AFC6-9046DBAFD9D8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AA1AF36.9030508@jetnet.ab.ca> china $1,000,000,005 richer From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 4 19:19:08 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:19:08 -0500 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <4AA19F6A.10037.1BF3143@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost> <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> <4AA163FB.26360.D70808@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904191117.0c461748@localhost> At 04:14 PM 9/4/2009 -0700, you wrote: >On 4 Sep 2009 at 16:41, Tom Peters wrote: > > > I have to place an order for 2500 sets every 6-8 months. I order about > > 5 at a time. Wish I could remember the brand I got last time. Had one > > die after 15 days- mechanical bell-chime ringer wouldn't work, checked > > continuity to the coil, all good, still no ringy-dingy. > >Other than the old WE ones, ITT made some decent ones. Wonder where >these new ones are made... > >Is your need for 2500 sets because of some peculiar ancient key >system requirement? No, more an ancient user requirement. We have new and old-- we have Nortel Meridian option 31 and 61 at our sites, depending on size, which we are working towards replacing with Asterisk on Linux boxes. We also have an ancient phone system on the wall at some sites, right next to the (smaller) Meridian system, that is entirely relay driven. No electronics, just stepping and rotary relays. It's for the old intercom system out in the bus lanes in the bus barns. It expects a rotary dial 500 set (what most people call a 2500 set) and it's for drivers to yack to the front desk, schedulers, etc. Only knows about 20 extensions. Really noisy to be standing next to the system box when someone dials up a call. We used to run all the paging through it too, until it started to get twitchy and we cooked up something else. The 2500 sets have touchtone keypads and are used on the station for drivers to call home and other station, the garage managers, and the transportation managers. They are on analog ports on the meridian and we use them because they're harder to destroy than the meridian electronic sets. And easier to use. ----- 211. [Commentary] "How do you tell a Communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin." --Ronald Reagan, Arlington, Virginia, September 25, 1987 --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 4 19:30:48 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:30:48 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904185402.03958ec8@localhost> References: <4AA1A4F1.1050601@gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904192007.0ba17ad8@localhost> At 06:58 PM 9/4/2009 -0500, you wrote: >At 06:38 PM 9/4/2009 -0500, you wrote: >>Tom Peters wrote: >>>Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop vac >>>for $19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. >>>They have one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the >>>tool aisle for $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from >>>Atlanta bought them too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know >>>the pros and cons of the unit. >> >>Hmm, karma, or something. I was just staring at a vacuum cleaner motor >>and empty 5 gallon paint can earlier in the workshop's junk pile and >>thinking of possibilities (actually along the lines of dust extraction >>for my miter saw - the lack of any being the main reason I'd want a shop vac). Ok, since you asked: After a few brief uses, I see the pros and cons this way: - Con: Incompatible hardware standards. The other vacs I've acquired free or at rummages sales, and they use either 1-3/8" OD tools or 2-1/2" OD tools. The new one looked like it might be the 2-1/2" standard, but it isn't. The tools you stick on the end of the hose or 2 included extensions have to be 1-3/4 inches outside diameter. - Con: My other vacs use a paper filter- a big circle of paper you fold over the inner cage on the motor assembly, and slide a ring down over it to hold it. This one uses a pleated paper filter that you have to buy from a Rigid dealer for about $15 a two-pack. No idea if they last longer than the other kind. - Pro: Came with hose, a small floor or flat surface attachement, and two extension tubes. - Con: Might need a brush tool with bristles, have to buy one. - Pro: Nothing I've thrown at it gets stuck so far. Big problem with the smaller hoses on the other vac. - Pro: This thing sucks. I mean really sucks. Stronger suction force than the other two I have. - Pro: It's pretty quiet for what it does. - Pro: The dimples on top of the feet (casters in the bottoms of these feet) hold all the tools you're not presently using, securely... - Con: ...As long as you only have four tools or fewer. - Pro: It was cheap! ----- 320. [Philosophy] "I shall cheerfully bear the reproach of having descended below the dignity of history." --Lord Macaulay. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 4 19:57:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:57:11 -0700 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904191117.0c461748@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost>, <4AA19F6A.10037.1BF3143@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20090904191117.0c461748@localhost> Message-ID: <4AA1B767.19404.21CE711@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2009 at 19:19, Tom Peters wrote: > We also have an ancient phone system on the wall at some sites, right > next to the (smaller) Meridian system, that is entirely relay driven. > No electronics, just stepping and rotary relays. It's for the old > intercom system out in the bus lanes in the bus barns. It expects a > rotary dial 500 set (what most people call a 2500 set) and it's for > drivers to yack to the front desk, schedulers, etc. Only knows about > 20 extensions. Really noisy to be standing next to the system box when > someone dials up a call. We used to run all the paging through it too, > until it started to get twitchy and we cooked up something else. Heh, I remember those--during my college years, I did evening shift on the (ancient) switchboard (shades of Lily Tomlin). Racks of lead- acid batteries and something that went click-click-click, about twice a second (selector?). --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 4 20:08:42 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 19:08:42 -0600 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <4AA1B767.19404.21CE711@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost>, <4AA19F6A.10037.1BF3143@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20090904191117.0c461748@localhost> <4AA1B767.19404.21CE711@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA1BA1A.2030405@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Heh, I remember those--during my college years, I did evening shift > on the (ancient) switchboard (shades of Lily Tomlin). Racks of lead- > acid batteries and something that went click-click-click, about twice > a second (selector?). Hmm... When I here Cell Phone, I still think of Maxwell Smart and the SHOE PHONE. > --Chuck PS. That gag wore out ... They have the Sock Phone. :) From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 4 20:25:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 18:25:32 -0700 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909041716x1cfe3952w9bfb0c1d21bc63f7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1A0D2.28679.1C4B119@cclist.sydex.com>, <6dbe3c380909041716x1cfe3952w9bfb0c1d21bc63f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2009 at 19:16, Brian Lanning wrote: > That marketing horsepower rating is technically, under a very specific > scenario, correct.... believe it or not. But it's a useless number. > IIRC, it comes from the power spike that happens right when you grab > the shaft of the motor. So essentially, it's a useless power rating. > I might be off on the description. I'm not an EE and I got a > frightfully low grade in physics. While we're on the subject--is there a different rating system for commercial applications? Most consumer upright vacuums boast 10-12 amp motors, whatever that means. After experiencing the dubious joy of owning several consumer vacs in about as many years, I bought a commercial vacuum, rated for hotel use. This by comparison, has a 6 amp motor, yet it does a job that's at least as good as my last 10 amp consumer model. The motors don't seem to be very different in size, though the commercial one is ball-bearing and metal-housed and has a brand that I recognize. This reminds me of the old IHF "Music Power" ratings for audio gear of many years past. Pure stuff and nonsense. --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Sep 4 23:29:08 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 23:29:08 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1A0D2.28679.1C4B119@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909041716x1cfe3952w9bfb0c1d21bc63f7@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > While we're on the subject--is there a different rating system for > commercial applications? ?Most consumer upright vacuums boast 10-12 > amp motors, whatever that means. ?After experiencing the dubious joy > of owning several consumer vacs in about as many years, I bought a > commercial vacuum, rated for hotel use. ?This by comparison, has a 6 > amp motor, yet it does a job that's at least as good as my last 10 > amp consumer model. ?The motors don't seem to be very different in > size, though the commercial one is ball-bearing and metal-housed and > has a brand that I recognize. As far as I know, there's no special rating for commercial applications. It's hard to fake an amp rating though. It either draws that much power or it doesn't. Of course, a space heater draws quite a lot of current and isn't a very good vacuum cleaner. Amps is actually a better measure of power consumption under these circumstances I think. Having said that, number of amps drawn says nothing about efficiency. The design of the vacuum and the filter makes a big difference. Just consider all those air filter after market upgrades for cars that actually increase power output. There's a whole area of nerd-speak covering things like cubic feet per minute of air moved or static pressure at some amount of mercury or whatever. In woodworking for example, dust collectors and shop vacuums are very different things with different usages. For a larger tool, you want a dust collector which would move a lot of air at a relatively slower speed. But for a smaller tool like a power palm sander, you'd wand a shop vac, lower amounts of air at higher speeds. Right now, cyclone dust collectors are all the rage. They have filters for only the very finest of dust, like 1 micron or so. The rest is fed through a specially shaped chamber that spins the air and uses centrifugal force to separate out the sawdust. It hits the sides of the container and falls into a barrel below. They have a version for shop vacs now. Have a look at this: http://www.dustdeputy.com/ I haven't bought it yet, but it's on the shopping list. They say over 99% of the dust is trapped in the bucket and I believe it. I'm planning to combine this with the big ridgid shopvac I'm using now. > This reminds me of the old IHF "Music Power" ratings for audio gear > of many years past. ?Pure stuff and nonsense. I used to be into car stereo a number of years back. They have the same sorts of problems. Speakers and amps supposed to be rated in watts RMS power handling or output. That's root-mean-square which is an averaging technique. Then others started rating their products in peak power output or power handling. Of course there's a huge difference between a bass drum hitting that peak power number for a split second, and the sustained bass from a rap boom truck. Then you have to consider the amount of noise or distortion produced at a given power output. Then there's power output for a given impedance rating for the load. Some amp manufacturers were rating their amps with power output numbers into 1 ohm when their amps were marginally 1 ohm stable. In other words, they'd overheat in seconds. I'm not sure what they're up to these days. For woodworking, there's this "nominal" crap. 3/4" plywood is sold as 3/4" "nominal" plywood. It's really 1/32" thinner. That may not sound like much, but it's the difference between a tight fit or not, and having tools that exactly match the plywood thickness or not. And they're all off a little depending on who made the plywood. Is it really so hard to measure it out to 3/4"? I'd be willing to pay for the extra wood. :-/ Then there's the thing about what's really a megabyte. Or P-ratings for microprocessor clock speeds. Or 17" monitors with a 16" "viewable area", or more recently, 46" "class" flat screen TVs. I view it all as lying. Either lying by omission or an attempt to hide the truth in technical details that they know most people aren't going to know or understand. I hate marketing. Knowledge is the only defense. But quite a lot of people are dumb or otherwise smart and just don't have the time to learn about all this stuff. So they keep on doing it. brian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 5 00:25:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 22:25:05 -0700 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com>, <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2009 at 23:29, Brian Lanning wrote: > As far as I know, there's no special rating for commercial > applications. It's hard to fake an amp rating though. It either > draws that much power or it doesn't. Of course, a space heater draws > quite a lot of current and isn't a very good vacuum cleaner. Remember that these are universal motors though and current drawn under what load conditions matters a lot. I still have the 10 amp vac; I should see what a clamp-on ammeter says during normal operation. I > Right now, cyclone dust collectors are all the rage. They have > filters for only the very finest of dust, like 1 micron or so. The > rest is fed through a specially shaped chamber that spins the air and > uses centrifugal force to separate out the sawdust. It hits the sides > of the container and falls into a barrel below. That's been the rage for a few years with consumer upright vacs, particularly with the Dysons. The problem of course is that the final filter is usually fairly expensive and slowly clogs during operation. I've had a couple of the cyclonic ones and went back to a double-layer disposable bag. I figure it runs about the same amount of money for the same performance and I get like-new performance every time I dump the bag. Cyclonic may work well for wood debris, but I wouldn't give you a plugged nickel for a shop vac with cyclonic separation sucking up sheetrock sanding dust on a foggy winter day. > For woodworking, there's this "nominal" crap. 3/4" plywood is sold as > 3/4" "nominal" plywood. It's really 1/32" thinner. That may not > sound like much, but it's the difference between a tight fit or not, > and having tools that exactly match the plywood thickness or not. And > they're all off a little depending on who made the plywood. Is it > really so hard to measure it out to 3/4"? I'd be willing to pay for > the extra wood. :-/ And a 1x2 isn't 1" x 2". It's been that way forever. The plywood I've purchased over the last 3 decades have all called out the actual finished sanded thickness. Is unsanded CDX the actual "nominal" thickness? I think so. The quality of the veneers used in modern plywood bothers me more than a 1/32" thickness variation. The mills don't even have the equipment to handle big peeler logs anymore--they'll even take 5 and 6 inch logs as veneer. It ain't what it used to be. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 5 00:37:03 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 23:37:03 -0600 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com>, <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: thickness? I think so. > > The quality of the veneers used in modern plywood bothers me more > than a 1/32" thickness variation. The mills don't even have the > equipment to handle big peeler logs anymore--they'll even take 5 and > 6 inch logs as veneer. It ain't what it used to be. What scares me is you can't even get real wood in furniture any more... No matter what the price it is still the same Synthetic Wood Product... > Cheers, > Chuck > PS: I am not sure who to trust less ... Used Car dealers or Furniture Salesmen. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 5 00:56:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 01:56:56 -0400 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1A0D2.28679.1C4B119@cclist.sydex.com>, <6dbe3c380909041716x1cfe3952w9bfb0c1d21bc63f7@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6582EB46-37E5-4CCC-A6C3-18E480F14BE4@neurotica.com> On Sep 4, 2009, at 9:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > While we're on the subject--is there a different rating system for > commercial applications? Most consumer upright vacuums boast 10-12 > amp motors, whatever that means. After experiencing the dubious joy > of owning several consumer vacs in about as many years, I bought a > commercial vacuum, rated for hotel use. This by comparison, has a 6 > amp motor, yet it does a job that's at least as good as my last 10 > amp consumer model. Doesn't it seem obvious to anyone else that this is akin to saying "this is a better car because it burns more gas"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 5 01:01:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 23:01:40 -0700 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2009 at 23:37, Ben wrote: > What scares me is you can't even get real wood in furniture any > more... No matter what the price it is still the same Synthetic Wood > Product... In a true vintage thread, that's why a fair number of people buy antique furniture--or, like Brian, build their own (I enjoy doing that too). There's no shortage of good wood; the furniture makers would rather deal with a standardized stable manufactured product than have to deal with the issues that accompany real wood. So you wind up with a hunk of sawdust and glue with no strength, but that can be popped out like cookies from a bakery. I can understand Tony's appreciation for old gear from my own experience with currently manufactured furniture. --Chuck From doug at doughq.com Fri Sep 4 02:20:43 2009 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2009 17:20:43 +1000 Subject: Paging Jay West In-Reply-To: <4AA05D76.2050103@compsys.to> References: <4A78CC7D.3080500@compsys.to><200908050120.23442.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A7A15F5.9000408@compsys.to> <009801ca1645$e114ed40$c600a8c0@JWEST> <4AA05D76.2050103@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4AA0BFCB.9020407@doughq.com> Hi Jerome, Is this conversion task something for which you have information? I am happy to assist, background is hardware and assembler/c+ programming, so I am confident there is nothing that is very complex. Doug Jackson Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jay West wrote: > >> Yes, saw the original emails Jerome. I read each the day you sent >> them, but they didn't seem super time-sensitive so I've been dealing >> with a few other things. Sorry for the slow response! >> >> (In my best monty python voice) But I'm not dead yet! > > It has now been another week. > > In addition, it is now after September 1st, 2009, so you can proceed > if you wish to do so. > > Since I can check when the process is complete, you don't even have to > post a reply!! > > If there is any addition information that you require, please ask. > > Jerome Fine From jason at havnet.com Fri Sep 4 17:50:47 2009 From: jason at havnet.com (Jason Fitzpatrick) Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2009 23:50:47 +0100 Subject: Video Interview with Steve Furber Now Online References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA19833.8080904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4FAFF913DA2144BD958D149C2019AA2D@SpareRoom> In an interview filmed at Manchester University on August 17, Prof Stephen Furber CBE talks about his involvement with the Mk14, how he became involved with Acorn Computers, the success of the BBC Micro, the development of the ARM processor and his latest project: SpiNNaker. You can watch the interview here : http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/5438/Steve-Furber-Interview-17-08-2009/ Cheers Jason From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Sep 5 02:04:29 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 00:04:29 -0700 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AA20D7D.7040602@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Sure, the service manuals often give the signatures. So you connect up > the signature analyser (start/stop/clock leads) and stick the probe on a > given point. If the signature agrees with the one in the manual, fine. If > it doesn't, then what? OK, there's a fault, but in a lot of complicated > systesm, particularly if state-machine or microprocessor based, a fault > just about anywherre will corrupt all the signatures, So how do you > determine which device has actually failed? > If a simple fault really makes all or even most of the signatures wrong, then the test engineers didn't design the test mode(s) of the product properly. I haven't observed that problem with HP or Atari products that have documented signatures. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Sep 5 02:10:30 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 00:10:30 -0700 Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A9EFE1A.6000407@rnsmte.com>, , <4AA06918.6060307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA07597.6466.22AD0A7@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1595C.8050902@brouhaha.com> <20090904112053.F2708@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AA20EE6.3050507@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Unless you are going for some ridiculously high speed, like over 300 bits > per second, that wouldn't work with acoustic coupling, why would you need > a DAA? > You need something to provide galvanic isolation, hook switch control, ring detection, and transient voltage protection. It's possible to do all those with your own circuitry using one or more transformers, capacitors, or optoisolators, or a combination thereof, along with various linear circuitry. Of course, even if you build it yourself, it's a DAA. Much easier to buy a module or chips. If you're designing a high volume cost-sensitive product, the module probably won't be cost-effective, but the chips probably will. Eric From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 5 03:52:09 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 10:52:09 +0200 Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: References: <76D7BD1AE91C433FA72DB20DBBA46E3A@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 3, 9 10:27:42 pm Message-ID: <43CF8FFDD1FC4C4CA5A2D977B6E4AF64@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: vrijdag 4 september 2009 20:03 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Omrom programmable terminal > > > I have the signature analyser and the logic comparator. > > The signature analyser is usefull if you have a HP > equipment with the > > according serv. Manual under test. > > Sure, the service manuals often give the signatures. So you > connect up the signature analyser (start/stop/clock leads) > and stick the probe on a given point. If the signature agrees > with the one in the manual, fine. If it doesn't, then what? > OK, there's a fault, but in a lot of complicated systesm, > particularly if state-machine or microprocessor based, a > fault just about anywherre will corrupt all the signatures, > So how do you determine which device has actually failed? In most cases the fault finding tree of HP serv. doc. is more then sufficient. Remember those were het same engineers who build all those nice machines ;-) And of cause by observing the behaviour(and error leds/codes) of a machine you get a reasonable clou where to search for a fault. > > Fault finding goes rather quick then, the logic comparator is only > > usefull with clock frequenties below aprox. 10Mhz above that the > > cable impedance is to big. High of cause .. > > Using a Fluke 9100A boardtester is much more usefull, > because you can > > test in cuircit ram, drivers and processor. > > I keep the HP stuff for collecting purpose ;-) > > To be honest, if I saw either instrument at a low-ish price > (including shipping!), I'd probably buy it. I like HP stuff :-) > > > And it's nicely build... > > You do not need to tell me that :-) I know........ > -tony > -Rik From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Sep 5 08:36:15 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 08:36:15 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909050636l49920b0tb5446fc1587536f7@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's been the rage for a few years with consumer upright vacs, > particularly with the Dysons. ?The problem of course is that the > final filter is usually fairly expensive and slowly clogs during > operation. ?I've had a couple of the cyclonic ones and went back to a > double-layer disposable bag. ?I figure it runs about the same amount > of money for the same performance and I get like-new performance > every time I dump the bag. Dysons are all we use. The problem for us is that we have 9 kids who like to destroy the house. So vacuuming for us usually involves things like breakfast cereal. We were filling so many bags that it was getting expensive. We're weird though. But the cyclone dust collectors are a different design. With vacuums, the debris has nowhere to go, so it stays in the chamber whirling around. With dust collectors, the dust gets collected in a barrel at the bottom. Also, the filters on dust collectors can usually be cleaned out and washed. Whereas vacuum filters are replaceable. Razor and blade business model I guess. > Cyclonic may work well for wood debris, but I wouldn't give you a > plugged nickel for a shop vac with cyclonic separation sucking up > sheetrock sanding dust on a foggy winter day. Sheetrock is a different matter. The dust is so fine that you need a filter. In fact, I have to use special sheetrock filters on my shopvac. > And a 1x2 isn't 1" x 2". ?It's been that way forever. ?The plywood > I've purchased over the last 3 decades have all called out the actual > finished sanded thickness. ?Is unsanded CDX the actual "nominal" > thickness? ?I think so. 2-by is different. That nominal dimension is what the 2x4 was before planing (or so the theory goes), so after it's been planed and smoothed, a separate service, it's slightly smaller. I'm not sure about CDX, although I would assume that it's too thin also. But 3/4" birch or oak plywood that you could use in a nice furniture project is definitely not 3/4" anymore. It's the nominal thing. > The quality of the veneers used in modern plywood bothers me more > than a 1/32" thickness variation. ?The mills don't even have the > equipment to handle big peeler logs anymore--they'll even take 5 and > 6 inch logs as veneer. ?It ain't what it used to be. I agree. The veneers are practically paper. I've sort of sworn off plywood for furniture projects, except as maybe an interior second wood. It splinters and chips out when you machine it. And you have to hide the edge. Then there's voids. And you can't even count on it staying flat these days. Gluing up panels from real wood is the way to go. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Sep 5 08:48:41 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 08:48:41 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > In a true vintage thread, that's why a fair number of people buy > antique furniture--or, like Brian, build their own (I enjoy doing > that too). ?There's no shortage of good wood; the furniture makers > would rather deal with a standardized stable manufactured product > than have to deal with the issues that accompany real wood. > > So you wind up with a hunk of sawdust and glue with no strength, but > that can be popped out like cookies from a bakery. > > I can understand Tony's appreciation for old gear from my own > experience with currently manufactured furniture. I stopped buying furniture altogether. I needed to make a table to go under the flat screen to hold the game consoles. I threw it together in an afternoon from 2x4s. It looks like 2x4 furniture, but works great. My grandkids will probably be using it 40 years from now. I'll make something nice later. If you guys want a quick and easy way to throw furniture together, like shelves for classic machines or a desk or stand, you should look into pocket screws. 2x4s (or wider) a miter saw, a drill, and a kreg pocket hole screw kit is all you need. The screws are really strong, more than it looks. And it takes practically no skill to make something durable and functional. Particle board and MDF (medium density fiberboard) are used in furniture for one reason. It's cheap. Over the last 50 years, the price of quality furniture hasn't changed, the value of the dollar has. So a nice dresser or table costs about what it did 50 years ago. But people have less money to spend. You can still buy good quality furniture, but you'll pay a lot for it. Think $2000 for a dresser. But the average person doesn't know what real furniture should look like. They want to head over to k-mart or target and pay $75 for a dresser. That $2000 dresser will be in your family 60 years from now. But the blue light special wouldn't survive 6 months in my house, and that's not an exaggeration. It's why I got fed up and started trying to make my own. I still go to furniture stores on occasion, but it's not to buy furniture. I've been ruined. I look at them and the mistakes and shortcuts just jump out at me. I'd rather have 2x4 furniture than the "nice" things that many stores try to unload on customers. brian From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Sep 5 11:04:34 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 11:04:34 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909050636l49920b0tb5446fc1587536f7@mail.gmail.com > References: <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090905105718.0d7a2eb0@localhost> At 08:36 AM 9/5/2009 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > That's been the rage for a few years with consumer upright vacs, > > particularly with the Dysons. The problem of course is that the > > final filter is usually fairly expensive and slowly clogs during > > operation. I've had a couple of the cyclonic ones and went back to a > > double-layer disposable bag. I figure it runs about the same amount > > of money for the same performance and I get like-new performance > > every time I dump the bag. > >Dysons are all we use. The problem for us is that we have 9 kids who > > > And a 1x2 isn't 1" x 2". It's been that way forever. The plywood > > I've purchased over the last 3 decades have all called out the actual > > finished sanded thickness. Is unsanded CDX the actual "nominal" > > thickness? I think so. I have several router bits and dado heads that are sold as being for half-inch plywood, but they cut a smaller slot, so that the plywood fits properly in the slot. Wikipedia: For convenience, we refer to lumber by its nominal dimensions, which are larger than its actual fractional size (see above table). This difference occurs because nominal dimensions traditionally referred to rough lumber, whose size was reduced in drying and planing. In addition, the standard finished dimensions of lumber have decreased through time?the typical 13/16 inches for a 1-inch board in the 1910s was reduced by 4% in 1929 and by another 4% in 1956, resulting in the current standard of 3/4 inch.[2] The move to set national standards for lumber in the United States began with publication of the American Lumber Standard in 1924, which set specifications for lumber dimensions, grade, and moisture content; it also developed inspection and accreditation programs. These standards have changed over the years to meet the changing needs of consumers, manufacturers, and distributors, so that lumber would remain competitive with alternative construction products. Current standards are set by the American Lumber Standard Committee, appointed by the Secretary of Commerce.[3] >2-by is different. That nominal dimension is what the 2x4 was before >planing (or so the theory goes), so after it's been planed and >smoothed, a separate service, it's slightly smaller. > >I'm not sure about CDX, although I would assume that it's too thin >also. But 3/4" birch or oak plywood that you could use in a nice >furniture project is definitely not 3/4" anymore. It's the nominal >thing. > >I agree. The veneers are practically paper. I've sort of sworn off >plywood for furniture projects, except as maybe an interior second >wood. It splinters and chips out when you machine it. And you have >to hide the edge. Then there's voids. And you can't even count on it >staying flat these days. Gluing up panels from real wood is the way >to go. Especially if you have unlimited funds :-) ----- 681. [Confession] A man's very highest moment is, I have no doubt at all, when he kneels in the dust, and beats his breast, and tells all the sins of his life. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Sat Sep 5 11:09:02 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 11:09:02 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.co m> References: <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090905110519.02e5bd28@localhost> At 08:48 AM 9/5/2009 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > In a true vintage thread, that's why a fair number of people buy > > antique furniture--or, like Brian, build their own (I enjoy doing > > that too). There's no shortage of good wood; the furniture makers > > would rather deal with a standardized stable manufactured product > > than have to deal with the issues that accompany real wood. > > > > So you wind up with a hunk of sawdust and glue with no strength, but > > that can be popped out like cookies from a bakery. > > > > I can understand Tony's appreciation for old gear from my own > > experience with currently manufactured furniture. > >I stopped buying furniture altogether. I needed to make a table to go >under the flat screen to hold the game consoles. I threw it together >in an afternoon from 2x4s. It looks like 2x4 furniture, but works >great. My grandkids will probably be using it 40 years from now. >I'll make something nice later. > >If you guys want a quick and easy way to throw furniture together, >like shelves for classic machines or a desk or stand, you should look >into pocket screws. 2x4s (or wider) a miter saw, a drill, and a kreg >pocket hole screw kit is all you need. The screws are really strong, >more than it looks. And it takes practically no skill to make >something durable and functional. I have a pocket jig. It's a neat idea and have used it on occasion, but I don't make a lot of furniture at this time of my life, so I haven't used it extensively. I can see where you could turn out stuff that doesn't look shlocky, with exposed screw heads and looking like it was knocked together by someone with no background in woodworking for stuff that is to be used inside the house. >Particle board and MDF (medium density fiberboard) are used in >furniture for one reason. It's cheap. Over the last 50 years, the Reason number two: It's dimensionally stable and doesn't warp when the humidity changes. I like it for stuff that I build for the basement- benches and etc. But it's not what I'd choose for cabinetry in the living quarters. >brian ----- 966. For years there has been a theory that millions of monkeys typing at random on millions of typewriters would reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. The Internet has proven this theory to be untrue. -- Anonymous --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 5 11:20:12 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:20:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Sep 4, 9 12:50:56 pm Message-ID: > Why, if you're an authorized [insert company here] field service engineer, = > you replace the entire subunit containing the offending component, of cours= > e. -- Ian=20 I thought such people just replaced parts at random until the unit appeared to work again. Most of them don't seem to bother with a multimeter, let alone a signature analyser :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 5 11:23:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:23:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at Sep 4, 9 05:15:15 pm Message-ID: > > Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop vac for=20 > $19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. They have= > =20 > one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the tool aisle for= > =20 > $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from Atlanta bought them=20 > too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know the pros and cons of the= > =20 > unit. Apart from being massively OT [1]. it worries me that anyone here would regard price as a primary criterion for choosing a particular piece of equipment. [1] OK, it's useful for getting dust/insects/arachnids out of classic computers. and it's useful for cleaing up swarf on the lathe after making some spare part for a classic computer. But that's really pushing it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 5 11:25:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:25:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: from "Teo Zenios" at Sep 4, 9 06:36:43 pm Message-ID: > So does it have a Z80 inside? ;) It probably does if you use it to clean up around my workbench. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 5 11:32:15 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:32:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: DAA (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal -joke) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904163925.0333db88@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at Sep 4, 9 04:41:37 pm Message-ID: > >How many modern handsets can even fit an acoustic coupler? The one I am pretty sure I've seen an acoustic coupler consisting of separate microphone ans speaker units with elastic velcro straps to fix them onto just about any handset. [..] > I have to place an order for 2500 sets every 6-8 months. I order about 5 at= > =20 > a time. Wish I could remember the brand I got last time. Had one die after= > =20 > 15 days- mechanical bell-chime ringer wouldn't work, checked continuity to= > =20 > the coil, all good, still no ringy-dingy. Do you mean that the coil was continuous, or that you know all components in series with the coil were good (e.g. a capacitor)? Was the ringer mechancially jammed? I bought an interesting model 746 (common UK telephone) a couple of months back. It has a neon lamp in the handset which flashes when it rigns (wired in series with the ringer) so that you can tell which 'phone is ringing if you have several on a desk. And it has the amplifier and coupling coil in the earpiece for use with hearing aids. Anyway, I was told it didn't ring (and that it wasn't supposed to, which is nonsense). When I took the cover off at home, the dial fell out. Lookig at it, I noticed a missing fixing screw. I was about to raid my hardware box for a 6BA screw when I noticed the original -- stuck to the magnet of the ringer and jamming the armature. Put it back in the right place and of course it rings properly now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 5 11:51:23 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:51:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <43CF8FFDD1FC4C4CA5A2D977B6E4AF64@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Sep 5, 9 10:52:09 am Message-ID: > And of cause by observing the behaviour(and error leds/codes) of a machine > you get a reasonable clou where to search for a fault. Self-diagnostics always worry me in that you're using a faulty device to tell you what's wrong with itself. How do you know the bits needed for the diagnostics are working correctly? To be fair well-designed self-diagnostics start by assuming that only a tiny part of the machine is working (and testing that), and then going to using more and more features, but never depending on a feature that's not been previously tested. But an awful lot of self-diagnositcs are not well-desiogned. I've repaired at least one HP instrument where, if one of the RAMs had failed in a particular way, it did not give the expected 'RAM U failed' pattern on the LEDs, but something totally different. Fortunately I only got a list of the erorr codes _after_ I'd found the fault by the old-fashioned method. Some of the HP9000/200 power-on self test error messages are little weird. I got confused by erorrs relating to the disk controller in 9836, for example. If I was a board-swapper, I proably would have replaced the rgith FRU first (namely the FDC board), but the message pointed in totally the wrong direction for component-level repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 5 11:43:12 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:43:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Omrom programmable terminal In-Reply-To: <4AA20D7D.7040602@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 5, 9 00:04:29 am Message-ID: > If a simple fault really makes all or even most of the signatures wrong, > then the test engineers didn't design the test mode(s) of the product My experience is that the systems that are hard to debug are those with multiple 'feedback loops' -- things like complex state-machine based control systems. And with those any fault is likely to affect just about every waveform in the system. Signature analysis might be useful for simpler systems, but those are not hard to sort out anyway. > properly. I haven't observed that problem with HP or Atari products > that have documented signatures. Perhaps that why few of the HP service manuals I have contain signatures (I think the only one that does is the one for the 82163 HPIL video interface). Any whay in at least one case (the HP7245A printer/plotter) HP provided some extra circuitry on the processor board (a 7474 dual-D-type and bits) to control a signature analyser but didn't put any signatures in the service manual. I guess the signatures would tell you if it wasn;'t working correctly but wouldn't help you find the fault. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 5 12:05:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 13:05:10 -0400 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Off-topic I know, but I just nabbed a Rigid 9-gallon, 3.5 hp shop >> vac for=20 >> $19.97+tax. 7 foot hose, 10 foot cord. At your local Home Depot. >> They have= >> =20 >> one that's the same or similar (Rigid, 9-gal, 3.5hp) in the tool >> aisle for= >> =20 >> $58. This was in the front of the store. Someone from Atlanta >> bought them=20 >> too, I'm in WI. If anyone asks, I'll let you know the pros and >> cons of the= >> =20 >> unit. > > Apart from being massively OT [1]. it worries me that anyone here > would > regard price as a primary criterion for choosing a particular piece of > equipment. This is how my entire country works. If it didn't, Wal*Mart would've been out of business long ago. It's disgusting. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 5 12:06:33 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 11:06:33 -0600 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA29A99.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> Brian Lanning wrote: > Particle board and MDF (medium density fiberboard) are used in > furniture for one reason. It's cheap. Over the last 50 years, the > price of quality furniture hasn't changed, the value of the dollar > has. So a nice dresser or table costs about what it did 50 years ago. > But people have less money to spend. You can still buy good quality > furniture, but you'll pay a lot for it. Think $2000 for a dresser. > But the average person doesn't know what real furniture should look > like. They want to head over to k-mart or target and pay $75 for a > dresser. That $2000 dresser will be in your family 60 years from now. > But the blue light special wouldn't survive 6 months in my house, and > that's not an exaggeration. It's why I got fed up and started trying > to make my own. I live in a apartment so building furniture is not a option. How ever when you see 50%+ off on furniture sale, and don't pay interest until 5 years later and we throw in free delivery, I suspect somebody is making big profit. The same goes with kitchen cabinets. The only problem with making things is new tools cost 10x more than the item you are making. Still one good thing can be said for MFB, it gives the classic computer consoles its look. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 5 12:14:15 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 11:14:15 -0600 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA29C67.7060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > So you wind up with a hunk of sawdust and glue with no strength, but > that can be popped out like cookies from a bakery. The same could be said for most baked products today found in the supermarket. > --Chuck Still regardless of the flack, I suspect the USA unlike Canada here has still a lot of Mom and Pop stores that you can find products worth selling or eating. PS. I look for value for my $$$ , not the lowest cost. oops my $10 keyboard is sticking again. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 5 12:38:53 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 13:38:53 -0400 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA29C67.7060403@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA29C67.7060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Ben wrote: > Still regardless of the flack, I suspect the USA unlike Canada > here has still a lot of Mom and Pop stores that you can find products > worth selling or eating. Umm, no. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 5 12:40:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 10:40:44 -0700 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090905105718.0d7a2eb0@localhost> References: <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com>, <6dbe3c380909050636l49920b0tb5446fc1587536f7@mail.gmail.com >, <5.1.0.14.2.20090905105718.0d7a2eb0@localhost> Message-ID: <4AA2A29C.11967.5B3AA51@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2009 at 11:04, Tom Peters wrote: > Especially if you have unlimited funds :-) Like electronics, wood is where you find it. My workbench top is made up of glued-up 1x2 rock-maple drawer slides (set on the 1x side) that I bought from a cabinet shop when they went to ball-bearing slides. I paid $10 for the pallet load--they were going to sell it for firewood because each piece had a groove in it. My workbench is weighed down with about 400 lbs of Garry oak slabs from a downed 300 year old tree (I own a big chainsaw and an Alaska mill for just such occasions). I'm finishing rebuilding a balcony here on the house that the ants got into. The deck (under the membrane) is 3/4" MDO plywood (paper one side, the other side is a sanded "A" veneer picked up as surplus from a concrete contractor. I was going to do the railing from clear western red-cedar, but the local lumberyard stock clerk asked me if I'd be interested in some clear Port Orford-cedar that someone had dropped off for half the price, as his commercial contractors wouldn't touch it. Most of the small amount that gets logged here is sent to Japan to build coffins and temples--you never see it being sold by retailers. After working with it, I'm sorely tempted to go back and make an offer to take his remaining stock for some future project. Re-using wood is another route. I've got lots of stuff made from reused old-growth wood. It's nothing like the stuff you find at Home Depot. I'm certain that other listers will have similar stories about electronics gear picked up on the outside chance that someday they might someday find a use for it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 5 12:44:30 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 10:44:30 -0700 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA29A99.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com>, <4AA29A99.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA2A37E.27020.5B71CF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2009 at 11:06, Ben wrote: > I live in a apartment so building furniture is not a option. The local community college here offers evening courses in woodworking and has a very well-equipped shop for student use. I know people who have signed up for the course so they could build their own kitchen cabinets. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 5 12:57:10 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 11:57:10 -0600 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA2A37E.27020.5B71CF2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com>, <4AA29A99.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA2A37E.27020.5B71CF2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA2A676.20407@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2009 at 11:06, Ben wrote: > The local community college here offers evening courses in > woodworking and has a very well-equipped shop for student use. I > know people who have signed up for the course so they could build > their own kitchen cabinets. They come with my apartment :) I have classic computers and DIY tube audio equipment as hobbie. That keeps me from the wood working stuff. Side note. Woodwright's shop VHS tapes from PBS. http://www.internetwoodworking.com/w5/wwsfaq2.html > --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 5 12:23:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 18:23:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 5, 9 01:05:10 pm Message-ID: > > Apart from being massively OT [1]. it worries me that anyone here > > would > > regard price as a primary criterion for choosing a particular piece of > > equipment. > > This is how my entire country works. If it didn't, Wal*Mart > would've been out of business long ago. It's disgusting. Alas most people over here act the same way :-(. But I'd hoped people on this list had more taste. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 5 12:32:15 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 18:32:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA29A99.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben" at Sep 5, 9 11:06:33 am Message-ID: > The only problem with making things is new tools cost 10x more than the > item you are making. And the tools/test gear you need to repair classic computers easily costs 10* the cost of that classic (or indeed the cost of a modern PC + emulator for said classic machine). So? Those tools (assuming you buy good-qulaity ones) will last for many, many repairs, woodwork projects, or whatever. I can't remember the last time I had to replace a tool because it was worn out (other than things like hacksaw blades, of course). Good tools will outlast you and me :-) You are speaking to a person, BTW, who finally decided to buy a good engineer's lathe in order to make a replacement part for a device that cost a lot less than 1/10th the cost of that lathe. The manugactuers of the device were playing protecitonist games (they would only supply parts ot authorised service agents), and there is nothing more likely to convince me to make the part myself. Of course the lathe has been very useful for all sorts of other work (and will be in the future). -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Sep 5 13:26:16 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 13:26:16 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090905105718.0d7a2eb0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20090905105718.0d7a2eb0@localhost> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909051126x4417edc1pfd076352335df2f5@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 11:04 AM, Tom Peters wrote: > I have several router bits and dado heads that are sold as being for > half-inch plywood, but they cut a smaller slot, so that the plywood fits > properly in the slot. I've seen those. To me, it's fixing the symptom instead of the problem. Also, they still vary in thickness. So even with the undersized router bit, you still may end up with a sloppy fit. If the dado is too wide for the plywood thickness, it's not a big deal because it's so close that it probably doesn't matter. But it might be too narrow for the plywood to fit, which is a headache. My solution was a dial-a-width stacked dado set in the table saw. There's also a technique where you cut a <3/4" dado in two passes with a 1/2" router bit. On the second pass, you use a scrap of the plywood in question to control the width. Perfect fit every time regardless of the plywood thickness. > For convenience, we refer to lumber by its nominal dimensions, which are > larger than its actual fractional size (see above table). This difference > occurs because nominal dimensions traditionally referred to rough lumber, > whose size was reduced in drying and planing. (snip) Plywood is not lumber. It's not been planed or dimensioned at all, just sanded sometimes. But that's just for surface quality. It's pressed into large sheets glued together with heat-activated glue. They can easily control the thickness and choose to make it thinner. If the plywood is coming from china, I can understand if it's a metric/imperial thing, which it is in that case. But the stuff here is just thinner because they can get away with it. I bet the missing thickness is lost to thinner veneers. Baltic birch plywood on the other hand (sometimes also called apple ply, not to be confused with the birch stuff at home depot) is great stuff though. It's sold in 5'x5' sheets so it's easy to spot. It comes in metric thicknesses that approximate 1/2 or 3/4 or whatever. >>Gluing up panels from real wood is the way >> to go. > > Especially if you have unlimited funds :-) It's not as bad as it sounds. If you buy oak boards from home depot and try to glue them up yourself, you'll get mediocre results. The wood they stock is over-priced and so-so quality. It's also been planed down to (actual) 3/4" already, but still likely to be cupped or twisted. The right way to do it is to buy rough lumber from a place like this: http://kmhardwoods.com/hardwood.php If you buy what's called 4/4 (four quarter) boards, you can plane them down to whatever thickness you want. Of course, you need a jointer and a planer, which aren't cheap. But if you keep doing this over the years, you can easily recoup the money saved over shopping at home depot, end up with higher quality wood, any thickness you want instead of what they stock, and your boards will be flat with invisible glue lines. I realize it's not for your average person though. I've been collecting shop tools for 10 years, and I'm only just now feeling like I have a complete shop. I guess I'm also valuing my time more now. I'd rather spend an extra $100 on a piece of furniture I'm making and use real wood if I'm going to spend the time on it. To get us back on topic, :-) Once I get the shop back together over the next few weeks, I'm planning to make a few monitor stands, an interesting design with dovetails and computer-carved edge banding. I'm also planning a custom baltic birch plywood and plexi case for my amiga 1200 motherboard, something with a lot of interior lighting that I can hang on the wall in my computer room and still use. I've thought about making some other wood computer cases as well, like something for the amiga 2000. And also, to my wife's dismay, I've found myself wanting an old console television like the one my parents had back in the 70s. It would be fun to play colecovision or intellivision games on it. I considered making one as a piece of furniture and putting a flatscreen in it. I think it deserves a tube though. :-) Maybe I can find a large tube tv on craigslist for free and build a new case for it. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Sep 5 13:37:08 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 13:37:08 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090905110519.02e5bd28@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20090905110519.02e5bd28@localhost> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909051137q34137ba9r87340288323666c5@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Tom Peters wrote: >> Particle board and MDF (medium density fiberboard) are used in >> furniture for one reason. ?It's cheap. ?Over the last 50 years, the > > Reason number two: It's dimensionally stable and doesn't warp when the > humidity changes. I like it for stuff that I build for the basement- benches > and etc. But it's not what I'd choose for cabinetry in the living quarters. It's true that it's more stable and doesn't move with humidity, but accounting for the movement is quite easy. Also, wide boards should only get wider with humidity changes, but still remain flat. If they warp, it's because there were problems with wood preparation or selection for that part of the piece. Also, if you choose quarter-sawn boards, then they don't really move much at all. They're more expensive though. To me, the durability problems with particle board make it not worth it. I have two drawers in my kitchen where the fronts have come off because of being closed too hard while full of silverware. I'm planning to remake all of the drawer boxes in there so that they hold together for more than a couple years. A friend of ours gave us a twin size bed, normal particle board stuff. It didn't even make it upstairs into the bedroom. I picked it up to carry it upstairs and it came apart in my hands. The screws that were holding it together blew out the sides of the boards. I also have a problem with the 1/8" MDF they use for the backs of furniture, same for drawer bottoms. Particle board won't hold the staples they use so they start to work their way out, or they blow out like the bed. That should be at least 1/4" plywood glued in place. I use 3/8" plywood for backs in my stuff, but I'm considering switching to tongue-in-groove boards so I don't have to deal with 4/8 plywood sheets anymore. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Sep 5 13:58:42 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 13:58:42 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA29A99.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> <4AA29A99.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909051158r5336b976jab1cde33a910cf14@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 12:06 PM, Ben wrote: > I live in a apartment so building furniture is not a option. There's people on the woodworking forums that do it. I agree that it does present some problems though. :-) If I had to do it, I'd probably either keep the tools in a storage rental place that had power, or keep to hand tools at the apartment. > How ever when you see 50%+ off on furniture sale, and don't pay > interest until 5 years later and we throw in free delivery, I suspect > somebody is making big profit. The same goes with kitchen cabinets. Kitchen cabinets are no better. They look good on the outside, but as soon as you open something, it's sawdust inside. > The only problem with making things is new tools cost 10x more than the > item you are making. I agree. The machines are expensive. And like computers and cars, there's no limit to what you can spend. Basically, the only machines I don't have at this point are a shaper and wide belt sander. (although I do have a router table and a drum sander) New, shapers with tilting arbors would be in the $2000-$3000 range for a good one, and the cutters are expensive also. The wide belt sanders are even worse. They're in the $3000 to $20,000 range new and require 3-phase power for the larger ones. If I had to buy all the tools in my shop again new, it would be as much as a new japanese sedan. But I've been really shopping sales over the years. Amazon was clearing out tools for a while at around 70% off. So I got good stuff at good prices. I don't really need half of the tools in the shop to make furniture though. They just provide more options or make certain tasks easier, faster, better results, etc. If you look at higher end furniture where a dresser could be $2000, it doesn't take many pieces to offset the cost of the tools. Plus you get exactly what you want in terms of size, shape, finish, durability, family heirloomicity, etc. If you're used to walmart funiture though, it's nowhere near worth it. A couple without destructive kids who never moves could do just fine with a $75 ikea dresser for quite some time. But that's not us. But a few thousand dollars could get you off to a good start and able to make some nice furniture. I'm thinking about getting into metal working also. I'm planning to get a box and pan brake, and sheers at some point. I'm also planning to take a welding class and a class for learning how to use lathes, mills, etc. It would be nice to add metal to the furniture I make. I could make my own steel computer cases also. > Still one good thing can be said for MFB, it gives the classic computer > consoles its look. Do you mean MDF? And which computers used something like it? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 5 14:11:05 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 13:11:05 -0600 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909051158r5336b976jab1cde33a910cf14@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> <4AA29A99.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> <6dbe3c380909051158r5336b976jab1cde33a910cf14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA2B7C9.9050209@jetnet.ab.ca> Brian Lanning wrote: >> Still one good thing can be said for MFB, it gives the classic computer >> consoles its look. > > Do you mean MDF? And which computers used something like it? The PDP 7 and PDP 4 come to mind. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Sep 5 14:20:37 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 15:20:37 -0400 Subject: N8VEM "twofer" special Message-ID: Hi! Thanks to my good friend James the N8VEM home brew computing project is offering its first ever "twofer" special. If you purchase an N8VEM SBC PCB for $20 plus shipping for an additional $5 you will receive a special edition mini-N8VEM version 8 SBC PCB. Why two SBC PCBs? At the N8VEM home brew computing project we have found that the best tool for building your own N8VEM SBC is to have its brother the mini-N8VEM SBC running along side! I have both the SBCs and use both frequently for a variety of tasks as do several of the N8VEM builders. Believe me, you'll get used to having both! There are 22 mini-N8VEM SBC PCBs available and this special will only last as until the mini-N8VEM PCBs run out. The N8VEM home brew computing project is completely amateur and non-commercial. All software and hardware design information is free and publicly available. Please join us on the N8VEM home brew computing wiki and mailing list for more information! http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/ http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch, 73 de N8VEM PS, this is a video from an advanced N8VEM builder demonstrating his N8VEM SBC with optional ECB backplane, DiskIO board connected to an IDE hard drive and floppy drive, DSKY front panel, and ECB bus monitor all working simultaneously. You can see him running CP/M 2.2 and copying files from the IDE hard drive to the floppy drive. Notice the data streaming past the ECB bus monitor. The DSKY is displaying floppy drive Track, Sector, Status 0, and Status 1 from the DiskIO floppy drive controller. http://n8vem.googlegroups.com/web/copy.avi From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Sep 5 17:16:20 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 17:16:20 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA2B7C9.9050209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> <4AA29A99.7030305@jetnet.ab.ca> <6dbe3c380909051158r5336b976jab1cde33a910cf14@mail.gmail.com> <4AA2B7C9.9050209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909051516j30d32b21i156f60e591dcf259@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Ben wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > >>> Still one good thing can be said for MFB, it gives the classic computer >>> consoles its look. >> >> Do you mean MDF? ?And which computers used something like it? > > The PDP 7 and PDP 4 come to mind. Before my time. :-) I'm surprised! Most old computers that weren't plastic were made of armor plate. brian From brain at jbrain.com Sat Sep 5 18:11:56 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 18:11:56 -0500 Subject: N8VEM "twofer" special In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AA2F03C.2080702@jbrain.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > I have both the SBCs and use both frequently for a variety of tasks as do > several of the N8VEM builders. Believe me, you'll get used to having both! > I searched for quite a while, but I'm drawing a blank on mini-N8VEM pictures. Anyone have any links? Jim From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Sep 5 18:33:34 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 18:33:34 -0500 Subject: Old IDE to USB? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4AA2F54E.1020808@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > Any advice for USB-based reading of old drives on new equipment? Don't try. Read them on older equipment. 386s and 486s are, for all intents and purposes, free. Grab one and read your data, then plug in a drive that DOES work with USB adapters and do a transfer. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Sep 5 19:27:24 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 01:27:24 +0100 Subject: Wanted -- Amiga Devcon article, or Trace disc duplicator docs Message-ID: <4AA301EC.2050103@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm currently mid-way through the floppy disc reader project -- or at least the hardware part of it. Current status is that the USB PIC is talking to the FPGA (i.e. I can write to the chip's registers, read the registers back and the LEDs on my Cyclone II Starter Board blink in neat patterns). Big thing is that I haven't soldered the Shugart interface together, so it won't talk to a disk drive yet. It does, however, seem to be writing to the SRAM, and the timing values seem somewhat sane (or at least close to what my TTL generator is spitting out). What I'm after now is an article from the proceedings of the 4th European Amiga Developer Conference, held in Milan between the 10th and 14th of September 1991: From Programming to Finished Product by Roberto Donelli (Soft Service Division Director, MEE S.p.A. - Milano) The reason I want this is because it contains an example "Freeform" script (format description) for an Amiga floppy disc. I'm looking into ways to describe a disc image in generic terms -- that is, you write a script that describes the format, then the software drivers can use that description to convert timing data (the time between flux transitions) into data (and vice versa). To put it another way, this is the "DRY" principle -- Don't Repeat Yourself. Why write two dozen programs to decode various disc formats, when one program and a couple of scripts will work just as well (and be easier to maintain)? From what I can gather, the Freeform language was designed by a company called Magnetic Design Corporation, for the "Trace" series of disc duplicators. So if someone has the docs for a Trace machine kicking about, I'd hazard a guess that a copy of the chapter on the Freeform language would be just as useful... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Sep 5 19:45:04 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 20:45:04 -0400 Subject: Paging Jay West In-Reply-To: <4AA0BFCB.9020407@doughq.com> References: <4A78CC7D.3080500@compsys.to><200908050120.23442.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A7A15F5.9000408@compsys.to> <009801ca1645$e114ed40$c600a8c0@JWEST> <4AA05D76.2050103@compsys.to> <4AA0BFCB.9020407@doughq.com> Message-ID: <4AA30610.60207@compsys.to> >Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi Jerome, > > Is this conversion task something for which you have information? I > am happy to assist, background is hardware and assembler/c+ > programming, so I am confident there is nothing that is very complex. There is no conversion required, but thank you for the offer. Jay, if you see this post, could you please make the file available at this point (and there is no need to take the time to reply as I will see the results)? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From sethm at loomcom.com Sat Sep 5 21:09:57 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Sat, 05 Sep 2009 19:09:57 -0700 Subject: Old IDE to USB? In-Reply-To: <4AA2F54E.1020808@oldskool.org> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> <4AA2F54E.1020808@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4AA319F5.6020006@loomcom.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > John Foust wrote: >> Any advice for USB-based reading of old drives on new equipment? > > Don't try. Read them on older equipment. 386s and 486s are, for all > intents and purposes, free. While they can still be had for free or almost-free if you look long and hard enough, believe it or not they're getting pretty hard to find. If you don't have one, you may have to wait a good long while before one turns up (I looked for about three months before I found a 486 on the local market, and had to pay $25 for it. No, really!) Even early Pentium systems are getting somewhat scarce, but Pentium-IIs from around the turn of the century are still in abundance and easy to come by, at least around here. Hopefully one of those will be good enough. I use a Pentium II 266 system for most of my data recovery these days. -Seth From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Sep 5 21:19:37 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 22:19:37 -0400 Subject: N8VEM "twofer" special Message-ID: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2009-September/277024.html Jim asked for some photos of the mini-N8VEM v8. Here is James web page that details the information on the mini-N8VEM SBC. http://smarthome.viviti.com/build I hope this helps. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 6 01:45:09 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 23:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1A0D2.28679.1C4B119@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909041716x1cfe3952w9bfb0c1d21bc63f7@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > Right now, cyclone dust collectors are all the rage. They have > filters for only the very finest of dust, like 1 micron or so. The > rest is fed through a specially shaped chamber that spins the air and > uses centrifugal force to separate out the sawdust. It hits the sides > of the container and falls into a barrel below. They have a version > for shop vacs now. Have a look at this: > I use a "cyclone lid" that I got from Veritas. I use it with my ShopBot and the lid just sits on top of a 30 gallon garbage can. Works fantastic. Does require a 4" hose to be used though. I use a 1.5hp Harbor Freight dust collector with it. For a shop vac, you can't beat a Fein Turob III. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 6 02:09:04 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 00:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1A0D2.28679.1C4B119@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909041716x1cfe3952w9bfb0c1d21bc63f7@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > For a shop vac, you can't beat a Fein Turob III. :) > *facepalm* TURBO.... *sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Sep 6 09:37:56 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 10:37:56 -0400 Subject: N8VEM "twofer" special Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 10:20 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: N8VEM "twofer" special > > http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2009-September/277024.html > > Jim asked for some photos of the mini-N8VEM v8. Here is James web page > that details the information on the mini-N8VEM SBC. > > http://smarthome.viviti.com/build > > I hope this helps. Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch [AJL>] Jim, There is a complete set of mini-N8VEM v8 files in this directory on the N8VEM wiki. James designed the mini-N8VEM using the N8VEM SBC as a guide but to more reflect his personal design goals. The two systems are compatible but the SBCs are quite different. I think James did a great job and I use my mini-N8VEM SBC all the time. It has a lot of advantages over the original N8VEM SBC especially as stand alone board. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=Mini%20N8VEM%20Fi les There are a number of what I would consider associated N8VEM projects or even "spin offs" mini-N8VEM being one of them. There is another SBC project in the UK using the N8VEM SBC design, etc. Also builders designed the DSKY as debug/monitor front panel type device. Again, a great project and I use it all the time. Another builder made the PockeTerm which I also use daily alongside the N8VEM project and so on. Making a frame work for home brew computing project is the whole point of the N8VEM project so I am 100% supporting these associated projects. Much of the development recently on the N8VEM project has been for adding full floppy drive capability in CP/M. We've been testing an improved CBIOS that supports the floppy drive. It is fully functional now and there is an optimized one in testing. With deblocking support and head seek optimizations it is *much* faster and works really well. The new version is on the wiki in the DiskIO folder for testing. The performance increase with the floppy drives, IDE and ATAPI devices is really quite remarkable. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Sep 6 11:06:33 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 11:06:33 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.co m> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090906110508.0458aa90@mail.threedee.com> At 08:48 AM 9/5/2009, Brian Lanning wrote: >I still go to furniture stores on occasion, but it's not to buy >furniture. I've been ruined. I look at them and the mistakes and >shortcuts just jump out at me. I'd rather have 2x4 furniture than the >"nice" things that many stores try to unload on customers. What is this, the classic lumber list? (Eyes pile of dimensional 2x6 130-year-old virgin Wisconsin pine on the back porch, slabs of wide white oak out front...) - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Sep 6 11:22:28 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 11:22:28 -0500 Subject: Old IDE to USB? In-Reply-To: <4AA319F5.6020006@loomcom.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090903152930.041cefb0@mail.threedee.com> <4AA2F54E.1020808@oldskool.org> <4AA319F5.6020006@loomcom.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090906111417.03cfd4a0@mail.threedee.com> At 09:09 PM 9/5/2009, Seth J. Morabito wrote: >While they can still be had for free or almost-free if you look long and hard enough, believe it or not they're getting pretty hard to find. If you don't have one, you may have to wait a good long while before one turns up (I looked for about three months before I found a 486 on the local market, and had to pay $25 for it. No, really!) That's because I threw out twenty cubic yards of them eight years ago. :-) Fortunately in this case, both of the old computers were still functioning. For the 386, first I searched for an old IDE drive of suitable vintage and size that would be recognized by the BIOS that didn't have any allowance for user-specified drive specs. Then I gave up on that and moved everything via Zip and floppy. For the newer, I added a second IDE that was small enough to be recognized by the BIOS and Windows 98. I was hoping that someone would've discovered that one of these $30 USB-to-IDE adapters had been made carefully enough to support older IDE standards... and I can still dream that one of them would allow you to specify the geometry. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Sep 6 11:15:22 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 11:15:22 -0500 Subject: Wanted -- Amiga Devcon article, or Trace disc duplicator docs In-Reply-To: <4AA301EC.2050103@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AA301EC.2050103@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090906111317.04092110@mail.threedee.com> At 07:27 PM 9/5/2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > What I'm after now is an article from the proceedings of the 4th European Amiga Developer Conference, held in Milan between the 10th and 14th of September 1991: > > From Programming to Finished Product >by Roberto Donelli (Soft Service Division Director, MEE S.p.A. - Milano) http://www.linkedin.com/in/rdonelli - John From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Sep 6 11:54:08 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:54:08 -0400 Subject: Wanted -- Amiga Devcon article, or Trace disc duplicator docs Message-ID: > The reason I want this is because it contains an example "Freeform" > script (format description) for an Amiga floppy disc. I'm looking into > ways to describe a disc image in generic terms -- that is, you write a > script that describes the format, then the software drivers can use that > description to convert timing data (the time between flux transitions) > into data (and vice versa). To put it another way, this is the "DRY" > principle -- Don't Repeat Yourself. Why write two dozen programs to > decode various disc formats, when one program and a couple of scripts > will work just as well (and be easier to maintain)? > From what I can gather, the Freeform language was designed by a > company called Magnetic Design Corporation, for the "Trace" series of > disc duplicators. So if someone has the docs for a Trace machine kicking > about, I'd hazard a guess that a copy of the chapter on the Freeform > language would be just as useful... I had seen those machines, many many years ago. It was a world of escalating copy protection on one side and copy protection defeating tools on the other. And the media duplicator guys were a little stuck in the middle :-). All that said, in the DRY principle there is the problem of going into analysis paralysis. If you devote yourself too strongly to the principle of a single end-all-and-be-all application you can find yourself not doing anything useful at all. In fact, until you've repeated yourself several dozen times, you probably don't honestly have a good idea of the broad range of abstractions or at the very least parameters you'll need. Sure, I might have 20 years experience with one particular brand of disk format or communications protocol... that does not give me the breadth I need to think that I understand them all! School of hard knocks rules above all else. Tim. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 12:30:38 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 12:30:38 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com>, <6dbe3c380909042129m66e170f8pe15d86c8c40fa9b6@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA3F1BE.8010400@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Right now, cyclone dust collectors are all the rage. >> ... > > That's been the rage for a few years with consumer upright vacs, > particularly with the Dysons. The problem of course is that the > final filter is usually fairly expensive and slowly clogs during > operation. I've had a couple of the cyclonic ones and went back to a > double-layer disposable bag. Ditto. I hate Dysons with a passion - the cylone bit's somewhat gimmicky, plus they use a lot of plastic which is prone to wear / breaking (and their spares outfit only sells larger components at great expense, even if the bit you actually need might be tiny) > I figure it runs about the same amount > of money for the same performance and I get like-new performance > every time I dump the bag. That's my conclusion, too. > And a 1x2 isn't 1" x 2". It's been that way forever. The plywood > I've purchased over the last 3 decades have all called out the actual > finished sanded thickness. Yep. Except in our house :-) We've got some space upstairs that's part closet, part open, and I wanted to make it all into closet area - but the wood they originally used was planed, but still a genuine 2x4" (rather than the usual 2x4" dimensional stuff that's around 3-1/2 x 1-1/2"). The old lady who used to own the place built furniture for a living and had contacts at the local sawmill, so I suspect that's why it's different (she built the house, too). Took me a while to find something that I could use and match with the existing work. > The quality of the veneers used in modern plywood bothers me more > than a 1/32" thickness variation. The mills don't even have the > equipment to handle big peeler logs anymore--they'll even take 5 and > 6 inch logs as veneer. It ain't what it used to be. There's a lot of laminate stuff around these days - relatively small bits of wood laminated to make larger sections. That's been quite common for things like window frames for a while, but it's starting to appear for furniture, bed frames etc. now too, presumably because they can use more material which would once have just been dumped. Laminates make me a bit nervous, but I'm told that in some cases it's stronger than just using a solid section of wood... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 12:52:32 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 12:52:32 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA3F6E0.8010403@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Sat, Sep 5, 2009 at 1:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you guys want a quick and easy way to throw furniture together, > like shelves for classic machines or a desk or stand, you should look > into pocket screws. 2x4s (or wider) a miter saw, a drill, and a kreg > pocket hole screw kit is all you need. The screws are really strong, > more than it looks. And it takes practically no skill to make > something durable and functional. Couldn't agree more. My workbenches in my 'shop are that way, rustled up in just a few hours, but I can happily jump up and down on them without fear of them breaking. I still waiting on some metal to fall into my lap so I can cover some of them and make them a bit more gunk-resistant for when I'm tearing apart engines etc. - either the sides of a chest freezer or the sides from a panel truck are good candidates, I reckon. I've just not put any effort into sourcing either, yet. > Particle board and MDF (medium density fiberboard) are used in > furniture for one reason. It's cheap. It'd be interesting to know how much useful material a good Oak will provide - if it's reasonable I'm tempted to throw one of ours at the local sawmill (we've got about 15 mature Oaks on the property, most of them where we can't actually see them from the house anyway) - it'd be nice to have a stockpile of stuff for making things that aren't at the cheap 'n cheerful end. > But people have less money to spend. You can still buy good quality > furniture, but you'll pay a lot for it. Think $2000 for a dresser. I was lamenting that on a newsgroup a while ago - it seems hard to buy stuff that's the same quality of 100-200 years ago, no matter how much money you throw at the problem. Hardly anyone makes it any longer. We spent several thousand on some tables, and they *look* nice, but the actual underlying construction isn't anything special. Problem is, nobody for hundreds of miles around even makes anything better... > That $2000 dresser will be in your family 60 years from now. Maybe. I can see myself needing to do work on ours to keep 'em solid. > I still go to furniture stores on occasion, but it's not to buy > furniture. I've been ruined. I look at them and the mistakes and > shortcuts just jump out at me. I hear ya there :-) cheers Jules From starbase89 at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 13:30:55 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 14:30:55 -0400 Subject: paint color for IBM system/38 side panels Message-ID: <2b1f1f550909061130i13086aa0k7b556a79b4497b72@mail.gmail.com> Evan went up to Mike Ross to get a system/3 and a system/38 for the MARCH museum yesterday. For now, we want to make the 38 more presentable aesthetically, as there are some rust and paint splatters on it. I'm looking for some kind of paint, preferably a spray, that can at least come close to a match. Thanks Joe From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 14:00:03 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 15:00:03 -0400 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA29C67.7060403@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA406B3.507@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 5, 2009, at 1:14 PM, Ben wrote: >> Still regardless of the flack, I suspect the USA unlike Canada >> here has still a lot of Mom and Pop stores that you can find products >> worth selling or eating. > > Umm, no. Yes... maybe not in your part of the country, but there are certainly smaller stores around here worth shopping at. Including one that sells only handmade solid-wood furniture. And a traditional Italian bakery. Both within 5 minutes drive of my house. Of course, they cost more. Of course I buy there. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 6 14:16:36 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 15:16:36 -0400 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA406B3.507@gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA29C67.7060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA406B3.507@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 6, 2009, at 3:00 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Still regardless of the flack, I suspect the USA unlike Canada >>> here has still a lot of Mom and Pop stores that you can find >>> products >>> worth selling or eating. >> Umm, no. > > Yes... maybe not in your part of the country, but there are > certainly smaller stores around here worth shopping at. > > Including one that sells only handmade solid-wood furniture. And a > traditional Italian bakery. Both within 5 minutes drive of my house. > > Of course, they cost more. Of course I buy there. Well, you've been here quite a bit; you know what I'm talking about. There are *some* but nowhere near as many as there used to be. Most people buy particle-board garbage at Wal*Mart and are (inexplicably) perfectly happy when it falls apart in a year. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 6 14:39:23 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 13:39:23 -0600 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA29C67.7060403@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA406B3.507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA40FEB.5050502@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Well, you've been here quite a bit; you know what I'm talking about. > There are *some* but nowhere near as many as there used to be. Most > people buy particle-board garbage at Wal*Mart and are (inexplicably) > perfectly happy when it falls apart in a year. I guess my bookshelves and computer desk are about to go *Kaboom* any time now. > -Dave Ben. From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 15:23:38 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 15:23:38 -0500 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA3F6E0.8010403@gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost> <4AA1F631.13585.3122B37@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA1F8FF.2030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4AA1FEC4.25145.333A95F@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380909050648r4108ac9are7e8682ba5f114c6@mail.gmail.com> <4AA3F6E0.8010403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909061323q1179ddfy8fc4a5e2c076fad4@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Particle board and MDF (medium density fiberboard) are used in >> furniture for one reason. ?It's cheap. > > It'd be interesting to know how much useful material a good Oak will provide > - if it's reasonable I'm tempted to throw one of ours at the local sawmill > (we've got about 15 mature Oaks on the property, most of them where we can't > actually see them from the house anyway) - it'd be nice to have a stockpile > of stuff for making things that aren't at the cheap 'n cheerful end. If you want, you can post something to the woodworking section at woodnet.net. A lot of the woodworkers there are a bit more serious about harvesting their own and have their own portable-sawmill-on-a-trailer thingies. Just remember that the branches can't be used, no matter how big or straight. You'll want to dry it the right way also. >> ?But people have less money to spend. ?You can still buy good quality >> furniture, but you'll pay a lot for it. ?Think $2000 for a dresser. > > I was lamenting that on a newsgroup a while ago - it seems hard to buy stuff > that's the same quality of 100-200 years ago, no matter how much money you > throw at the problem. Hardly anyone makes it any longer. We spent several > thousand on some tables, and they *look* nice, but the actual underlying > construction isn't anything special. Problem is, nobody for hundreds of > miles around even makes anything better... woodnet.net. :-) >> That $2000 dresser will be in your family 60 years from now. > > Maybe. I can see myself needing to do work on ours to keep 'em solid. Quite a lot of antique furniture can still be used today. And they didn't have modern glues. brian From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Sep 6 15:15:56 2009 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 22:15:56 +0200 Subject: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <6dbe3c380909041716x1cfe3952w9bfb0c1d21bc63f7@mail.gmail.com> <4AA1BE0C.14081.236D9E4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090906201556.GB1197@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Sep 04, 2009 at 06:25:32PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Sep 2009 at 19:16, Brian Lanning wrote: > > > That marketing horsepower rating is technically, under a very specific > > scenario, correct.... believe it or not. But it's a useless number. > > IIRC, it comes from the power spike that happens right when you grab > > the shaft of the motor. So essentially, it's a useless power rating. > > I might be off on the description. I'm not an EE and I got a > > frightfully low grade in physics. > > While we're on the subject--is there a different rating system for > commercial applications? Most consumer upright vacuums boast 10-12 > amp motors, whatever that means. After experiencing the dubious joy > of owning several consumer vacs in about as many years, I bought a > commercial vacuum, rated for hotel use. This by comparison, has a 6 > amp motor, yet it does a job that's at least as good as my last 10 > amp consumer model. The motors don't seem to be very different in > size, though the commercial one is ball-bearing and metal-housed and > has a brand that I recognize. > > This reminds me of the old IHF "Music Power" ratings for audio gear > of many years past. Pure stuff and nonsense. Ah yes, PMPO a.k.a. power output of the unit at the moment of spontaneous combustion. According to those numbers, the small PC speakers sold at random electronics stores must work on the basis of some strange physics[0]: delivering 1000 Watt of sound (however this number is made up) while consuming only 7 Watt of electrical power ... Regards, Alex. [0] Maybe they suck in energy from the parallel bullshit universe. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 6 16:08:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:08:48 -0700 Subject: Vintage-er Cases for Vintage Gear, was:: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909061323q1179ddfy8fc4a5e2c076fad4@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA3F6E0.8010403@gmail.com>, <6dbe3c380909061323q1179ddfy8fc4a5e2c076fad4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA424E0.16478.B987D88@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, as long as the discussion has swerved off this, how many woodworkers out there have constructed their own vintage gear cabinets and cases? I've got a few odds and ends, for various things, such as my oak raised panel floppy file (6' high x 4' wide by 3' deep with drawers to hold many floppies of various sizes. I've got a floating-panel case for my UPS (wet) batteries, figuring that it won't rust from the acid fumes. And I've got an eastern red cedar floppy drive enclosure for a 2.8" drive because I couldn't find anything that fit precisely. I've considered setting up a mahogany case with bakelite handled- lever switches and jeweled incandescent lamp indictators with a brass escutcheon here and there for something like a CP1600-based micro. Sadly, thinking is about as far as I've gotten. There's no reason that computer gear has to have a retro-industrial look to it. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 6 16:18:29 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 15:18:29 -0600 Subject: Vintage-er Cases for Vintage Gear, was:: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA424E0.16478.B987D88@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA3F6E0.8010403@gmail.com>, <6dbe3c380909061323q1179ddfy8fc4a5e2c076fad4@mail.gmail.com> <4AA424E0.16478.B987D88@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AA42725.6090407@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, as long as the discussion has swerved off this, how many > woodworkers out there have constructed their own vintage gear > cabinets and cases? > > I've got a few odds and ends, for various things, such as my oak > raised panel floppy file (6' high x 4' wide by 3' deep with drawers > to hold many floppies of various sizes. I've got a floating-panel > case for my UPS (wet) batteries, figuring that it won't rust from the > acid fumes. And I've got an eastern red cedar floppy drive enclosure > for a 2.8" drive because I couldn't find anything that fit precisely. > > I've considered setting up a mahogany case with bakelite handled- > lever switches and jeweled incandescent lamp indictators with a brass > escutcheon here and there for something like a CP1600-based micro. CP1600? > Sadly, thinking is about as far as I've gotten. There's no reason > that computer gear has to have a retro-industrial look to it. True ... just have wheels, lights and core memory. :) > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 6 16:38:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:38:46 -0700 Subject: Vintage-er Cases for Vintage Gear, was:: OT Cheep shop-vac In-Reply-To: <4AA42725.6090407@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090904170756.01facec8@localhost>, <4AA424E0.16478.B987D88@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AA42725.6090407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4AA42BE6.18681.BB3EA48@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2009 at 15:18, Ben wrote: > CP1600? One of the first, if not the first 16-bit single-chip microprocessor (1975-1976). Made by GI; the instruction set is reminiscent of the PDP-11. http://www.rhoent.com/cp_lp.pdf A successor, the 1610, was used in the Intellivision consoles. The I/O processor chip still exists as the PIC microcontroller. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 17:18:44 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 17:18:44 -0500 Subject: FFS: Tadpole SparcBook Message-ID: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> I have here a Sparcbook laptop by Tadpole which will go free for the cost of (not insubstantial) shipping to a good home. It works when it wants to. The AC adaptor is good, however the power connector on the mainboard may be loose. Sometimes it boots; often it does not. When it does boot, it boots up a login and I was able to log on as root with a blank password. Included with the Sparcbook are: - AC Adaptor - CD of Solaris 1.01 for Sparcbook (Version A.) - (2) floppy set of SoftPC Ver 3.05 for Sparcbook Solaris - Sparcbook 1 User Guide - Sparcbook 1 SoftPC Installation Guide - Solaris 1.0.1 Sparcbook version Release Notes I also have second copy of the Sparcbook User Guide which I will send to anyone interested in that piece only. Shipping will be from 60074 zip. Local pickup is welcome. If I do not have the proper shipping materials here, then I'll have to go to the UPS store and have them box it up, so extra charges may apply there. Thanks -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Sep 6 17:56:23 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 17:56:23 -0500 Subject: FFS: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730909061556o50c7313du3b6214e641bf973e@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Jason T wrote: > I have here a Sparcbook laptop by Tadpole which will go free for the Wow, I wasn't prepared for the avalanche of requests. I guess these are cute little boxes. And like that, it's gone. The 2nd copy of the User Guide is still here if anyone wants it. -j From brain at jbrain.com Sun Sep 6 22:26:49 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:26:49 -0500 Subject: N8VEM "twofer" special In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AA47D79.2090006@jbrain.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] >> Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 10:20 PM >> To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' >> Subject: N8VEM "twofer" special >> >> http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2009-September/277024.html >> >> Jim asked for some photos of the mini-N8VEM v8. Here is James web page >> that details the information on the mini-N8VEM SBC. >> >> http://smarthome.viviti.com/build >> >> I hope this helps. Thanks and have a nice day! >> >> Andrew Lynch >> > [AJL>] > Jim, > There is a complete set of mini-N8VEM v8 files in this directory on the > N8VEM wiki. James designed the mini-N8VEM using the N8VEM SBC as a guide > but to more reflect his personal design goals. The two systems are > compatible but the SBCs are quite different. I think James did a great job > and I use my mini-N8VEM SBC all the time. It has a lot of advantages over > the original N8VEM SBC especially as stand alone board. > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=Mini%20N8VEM%20Fi > les > I went and looked at the pictures, but I could not get a sense of the size difference between boards. Is there an appreciable size difference? Jim From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Sep 7 00:01:26 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 22:01:26 -0700 Subject: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have one of these, and would be grateful if the new owner of this one would be willing to share a copy of the OS CD. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T [silent700 at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2009 3:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; The Rescue List Subject: FFS: Tadpole SparcBook I have here a Sparcbook laptop by Tadpole which will go free for the cost of (not insubstantial) shipping to a good home. It works when it wants to. The AC adaptor is good, however the power connector on the mainboard may be loose. Sometimes it boots; often it does not. When it does boot, it boots up a login and I was able to log on as root with a blank password. Included with the Sparcbook are: - AC Adaptor - CD of Solaris 1.01 for Sparcbook (Version A.) - (2) floppy set of SoftPC Ver 3.05 for Sparcbook Solaris - Sparcbook 1 User Guide - Sparcbook 1 SoftPC Installation Guide - Solaris 1.0.1 Sparcbook version Release Notes I also have second copy of the Sparcbook User Guide which I will send to anyone interested in that piece only. Shipping will be from 60074 zip. Local pickup is welcome. If I do not have the proper shipping materials here, then I'll have to go to the UPS store and have them box it up, so extra charges may apply there. Thanks -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 7 00:54:23 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 00:54:23 -0500 Subject: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730909062254s631e2d00n456c7864ecae795b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Ian King wrote: > I have one of these, and would be grateful if the new owner of this one would be willing to share a copy of the OS CD. ?-- Ian I've had a couple other requests for the CD, so I'm going to try to image it (and the floppies) before I ship out the Sparcbook. Any advice on what tools to use to make the image? Unfortunately at this time I only have access to Windows boxes. The filesystem on the CD doesn't appear to be readable in Windows. -j From monahan at vitasoft.org Sun Sep 6 09:23:28 2009 From: monahan at vitasoft.org (John Monahan) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 07:23:28 -0700 Subject: Manual for Mountain Hardware RTC S-100 Board Message-ID: <000001ca2efd$9ce77ae0$d6b670a0$@org> Dear Sir, I have started putting together a web site www.S100Computers.com completely focused on S-100 based computers. This is strictly a hobby. I think there is a need for a good central place that describes the different S-100 boards that anybody can quickly go to. I think it is important to try and get all this stuff together while we remember it for later generations. Be it other hobbyists or serious historians etc. In particular I am trying to get all the old manuals. Anyway, I am working my way through the different companies. I am currently doing the company Mountain Hardware. I wondered if by chance you have or could make a .pdf file for the manual for the Mountain Hardware 100,000 days clock board. I see some time ago you listed it under "my CP/M-80 pile'o'gunk". Alternatively if you are comfortable with it, I could scan the manual myself and return it to you. Sincerely John John Monahan, PhD. 3839 Cottonwood Drive Danville, CA 94506 Phone 925-964-9093 Mobile 510-502-5890 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 6 12:13:36 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 10:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone own/seen/willing to sell an Atari PC-2? Message-ID: <457920.38157.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> the most boring, plainest most vanilla looking peecee you ever saw. They do pop up in Canada. I'm also looking to acquire a working Atari ST type unit. E-mail me. From leaknoil at comcast.net Sun Sep 6 16:12:32 2009 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (leaknoil) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 14:12:32 -0700 Subject: IBM AS/400 9402 C04 help needed In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550909061130i13086aa0k7b556a79b4497b72@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909061130i13086aa0k7b556a79b4497b72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA425C0.9010002@comcast.net> I just picked up a pretty cool old CISC based AS/400 box I've been having fun exploring. Model 9402 C04. It came with a few Twinax terminals and a pair of modems. Thanks to some great help on the vintage computer forums I've gotten pretty far but, there are a couple things I still need help with. Perhaps someone here can help me out. The big one is that the machine hadn't been powered on in over 14 years. The batteries were a pile of green goo and very dead. Luckily the carrier seemed ok and I put new batteries in it but, I'm not sure the damage hasn't been done. The system now complains about invalid system password and wants me to bypass it or enter in a valid one. Apparently this is something that gets generated by IBM. I just bypassed it but, now the system gives me a messages about the bypass ending in 70 days. The funny thing is it keeps saying 70 days even after 3 days have past. Y2K issue perhaps? I take this to mean my machine will be bricked eventually, or not, and all my as/400 fun will end eventually. I could be bored with it already in 70 days but, I'd rather not risk it. I don't have any contacts at IBM but, maybe someone here can point me to the right email address to beg and plead to. This is the info needed in case someone here can make it magically happen as well. System serial: 10-11845 System type/model: 9402/C04 System password version: QZ100205 Processor card serial: 10-0533010 Right now the box has a V2R3 install on it with none of the development stuff. What I would really like is R3V2 with all the development stuff even if it means I have to reinstall every 70 days. IBM doesn't offer it anymore so, if someone here has a copy they can lend me or even a fairly complete dump from another as/400 running V3R2 I could restore from I would be a happy camper. The system does have a tape drive. Even images I can make on a Linux box would work as I have one with a 1/4" tape drive. I am also getting a Error message about System Processor failed. Return code X'0022' was returned from the service processor. From job SCPF, user QSYS, from program QWCIDIOR. If any of that means anything to anyone. Is this related to the invalid system password or is it a hardware issue with the service processor ? Thanks in advance for any suggestions or help. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 7 00:13:26 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 06 Sep 2009 22:13:26 -0700 Subject: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA49676.7000107@jwsss.com> Ian King wrote: > I have one of these, and would be grateful if the new owner of this one would be willing to share a copy of the OS CD. -- Ian > ________________________________________ If memory serves, the CD is very similar to the Sunos 4.x cd, and making a copy will be a challenge due to stunts that Sun pulled to allow booting on multiple architecture Sparcs. I would appreciate a copy if it can be made to run with some earlier IPX and IPC's that I have as well. Thanks Jim From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 7 01:18:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 02:18:46 -0400 Subject: Manual for Mountain Hardware RTC S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <000001ca2efd$9ce77ae0$d6b670a0$@org> References: <000001ca2efd$9ce77ae0$d6b670a0$@org> Message-ID: <46573114-9351-4717-9F13-EC5BC2507015@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2009, at 10:23 AM, John Monahan wrote: > I have started putting together a web site www.S100Computers.com > completely > focused on S-100 based computers. This is strictly a hobby. > > I think there is a need for a good central place that describes the > different S-100 boards that anybody can quickly go to. I think it is > important to try and get all this stuff together while we remember > it for > later generations. Be it other hobbyists or serious historians > etc. In > particular I am trying to get all the old manuals. > > Anyway, I am working my way through the different companies. I am > currently > doing the company Mountain Hardware. I wondered if by chance you > have or > could make a .pdf file for the manual for the Mountain Hardware > 100,000 > days clock board. I see some time ago you listed it under "my CP/M-80 > pile'o'gunk". Alternatively if you are comfortable with it, I > could scan > the manual myself and return it to you. Ok, so does anyone seriously, really, honestly think setting Reply- To: headers to the list is actually a good idea? Seriously? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 7 02:04:42 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 00:04:42 -0700 Subject: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: <4AA49676.7000107@jwsss.com> References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> <4AA49676.7000107@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4AA4B08A.60402@brouhaha.com> Jim wrote: > If memory serves, the CD is very similar to the Sunos 4.x cd, and > making a copy will be a challenge due to stunts that Sun pulled to > allow booting on multiple architecture Sparcs. Just dd from the raw CDROM device into a .iso file, then you can burn discs from that image using any software that you'd normally use to burn from ISO files. Or use any sort of Windows/MacOS/Linux software that can duplicate CDROMs (rather than creating a new image from files). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 7 02:10:46 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 00:10:46 -0700 Subject: reply-to headers on list (was Re: Manual for Mountain Hardware RTC S-100 Board) In-Reply-To: <46573114-9351-4717-9F13-EC5BC2507015@neurotica.com> References: <000001ca2efd$9ce77ae0$d6b670a0$@org> <46573114-9351-4717-9F13-EC5BC2507015@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AA4B1F6.7060507@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Ok, so does anyone seriously, really, honestly think setting > Reply-To: headers to the list is actually a good idea? Seriously? Yes, some of us do think so. There are many arguments for, and many against. There are web pages advocating both positions. Here's one advocating it: http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html If we're going to start discussing how mailing lists should work, which we probably shouldn't, I'm much more interested in trying to convince people to change the subject header to something appropriate when a reply isn't actually relevant to the original subject header. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 7 02:15:27 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 00:15:27 -0700 Subject: IBM AS/400 9402 C04 help needed In-Reply-To: <4AA425C0.9010002@comcast.net> References: <2b1f1f550909061130i13086aa0k7b556a79b4497b72@mail.gmail.com> <4AA425C0.9010002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4AA4B30F.9090601@brouhaha.com> leaknoil wrote: > I just picked up a pretty cool old CISC based AS/400 box I've been > having fun exploring. Model 9402 C04. [...] The system now complains > about invalid system password and wants me to bypass it or enter in a > valid one. Apparently this is something that gets generated by IBM. I > just bypassed it but, now the system gives me a messages about the > bypass ending in 70 days. The funny thing is it keeps saying 70 days > even after 3 days have past. Y2K issue perhaps? Probably still 70 days due to the battery having failed. Anyhow, I researched this a few years back when I had a CISC AS/400. To get a new system password, you'll have to pay IBM for an OS/400 license transfer, since otherwise you don't actually have an OS/400 license. I wasn't able to find out an exact price for a license transfer, other than that it would be *many* thousands of dollars. IBM changed the OS/400 licensing policy with the RISC-based machines; on those the OS is licensed to the machine so apparently it can be transferred with the machine without the astronomical expense. I haven't tried, though. Eric From bear at typewritten.org Mon Sep 7 02:21:12 2009 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 00:21:12 -0700 Subject: IBM AS/400 9402 C04 help needed In-Reply-To: <4AA4B30F.9090601@brouhaha.com> References: <2b1f1f550909061130i13086aa0k7b556a79b4497b72@mail.gmail.com> <4AA425C0.9010002@comcast.net> <4AA4B30F.9090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <9C7BC06B-ED7B-4E55-96B9-7B3AAC7B752A@typewritten.org> On Sep 7, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > IBM changed the OS/400 licensing policy with the RISC-based > machines; on those the OS is licensed to the machine so apparently > it can be transferred with the machine without the astronomical > expense. I haven't tried, though. Not exactly. They changed the licensing with V4R1. The first RISC machines ran V3R7 and have the same non-transferrable license as all the CISC machines. ok bera From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Sep 7 02:40:43 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 09:40:43 +0200 Subject: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: <51ea77730909062254s631e2d00n456c7864ecae795b@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730909062254s631e2d00n456c7864ecae795b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090907094043.189e5b74.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 7 Sep 2009 00:54:23 -0500 Jason T wrote: > Any advice on what tools to use to make the image? cdrdao(1) is capable of making a block-to-block copy or image of CDs. I use it allways for making CD images. > Unfortunately at this time I only have access to Windows boxes. Boot a Linux live CD like Knoppix. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 7 04:12:42 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 10:12:42 +0100 Subject: Reply-To - was Re: Manual for Mountain Hardware RTC S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <46573114-9351-4717-9F13-EC5BC2507015@neurotica.com> References: <000001ca2efd$9ce77ae0$d6b670a0$@org> <46573114-9351-4717-9F13-EC5BC2507015@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AA4CE8A.7000409@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/09/2009 07:18, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 6, 2009, at 10:23 AM, John Monahan wrote: >> I have started putting together a web site www.S100Computers.com > Ok, so does anyone seriously, really, honestly think setting Reply-To: > headers to the list is actually a good idea? Seriously? I do. It's a discussion list, so in the normal course of events replies should go to the list. Of course you'll get the occasional misplaced reply like that one, but you'll get a lot more going wrong otherwise. I'm on a couple of lists where the Reply-To: doesn't go to the list, and people regularly complain they've inadvertently sent the reply to the sender, and had to send it again, but fairly often they don't notice and discussions seem to disappear. -- Pete From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 7 04:36:34 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 10:36:34 +0100 Subject: VT100 charset ROM Message-ID: <4AA4D422.1040108@dunnington.plus.com> Does anyone have a dump or image of the basic character set ROM for a VT100 or VT103? It's a 2316 ROM, part number 23-018E2, at position E4 on the board, IIRC. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Sep 7 08:48:58 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 09:48:58 -0400 Subject: N8VEM "twofer" special Message-ID: <2FEC934CADC84198B4C8B2520CD92083@andrewdesktop> I went and looked at the pictures, but I could not get a sense of the size difference between boards. Is there an appreciable size difference? Jim Hi Jim! Thanks! Yes, there is a size difference. The N8VEM PCBs are Eurocard 160x100 mm standard. The mini-N8VEM is slightly larger about a centimeter or so larger on length and width. It won't fit in a Eurocard rack but is still small enough to work fine as a stand alone SBC. It will also plug into the N8VEM ECB backplane. There is a lot of information available on the wiki and you may want to consider asking questions on the mailing list. All the files for mini-N8VEM SBC are available in the Eagle format including schematics and PCB layout. If you want anything else just ask and its probably available. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Sep 7 08:49:32 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 09:49:32 -0400 Subject: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: <20090907094043.189e5b74.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730909062254s631e2d00n456c7864ecae795b@mail.gmail.com> <20090907094043.189e5b74.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: rawrite should work ok. I have solaris 1.01 I believe, somewhere. CD. not sure it'll do. _________________________________________________________________ New! Get to Messenger faster: Sign-in here now! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9677407 From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 7 09:23:00 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 09:23:00 -0500 Subject: reply-to headers on list (was Re: Manual for Mountain Hardware RTC S-100 Board) In-Reply-To: <4AA4B1F6.7060507@brouhaha.com> References: <000001ca2efd$9ce77ae0$d6b670a0$@org> <46573114-9351-4717-9F13-EC5BC2507015@neurotica.com> <4AA4B1F6.7060507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090907092210.04427b18@mail.threedee.com> At 02:10 AM 9/7/2009, Eric Smith wrote: >If we're going to start discussing how mailing lists should work, which we probably shouldn't, I'm much more interested in trying to convince people to change the subject header to something appropriate when a reply isn't actually relevant to the original subject header. Yeah! They should add that feature to all mail reading programs. - John From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Sep 7 10:21:52 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 17:21:52 +0200 Subject: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: <4AA4B08A.60402@brouhaha.com> References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> <4AA49676.7000107@jwsss.com> <4AA4B08A.60402@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20090907172152.ad17a098.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 00:04:42 -0700 Eric Smith wrote: > Just dd from the raw CDROM device into a .iso file ... will not work for e.g. mixed mode CDs. On pure data CDROMs it will add a few bogus sectors at the end of the image. (Run Off) But most of the time dd(1) works well enough. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Sep 7 10:52:59 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 10:52:59 -0500 Subject: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: <51ea77730909062254s631e2d00n456c7864ecae795b@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730909062254s631e2d00n456c7864ecae795b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA52C5B.40404@oldskool.org> Jason T wrote: > On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Ian King wrote: >> I have one of these, and would be grateful if the new owner of this one would be willing to share a copy of the OS CD. -- Ian > > I've had a couple other requests for the CD, so I'm going to try to > image it (and the floppies) before I ship out the Sparcbook. Any > advice on what tools to use to make the image? Unfortunately at this > time I only have access to Windows boxes. The filesystem on the CD > doesn't appear to be readable in Windows. ImgBurn should work well to create an .ISO of the disc. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 7 13:28:59 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 11:28:59 -0700 Subject: Tadpole SparcBook In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730909061518i60e5a104y40e94d30e5d31daf@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730909062254s631e2d00n456c7864ecae795b@mail.gmail.com> <20090907094043.189e5b74.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: At 9:49 AM -0400 9/7/09, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >I have solaris 1.01 I believe, somewhere. CD. >not sure it'll do. It might run, but the Tadpole CD would be better as it has some Tadpole specific utilities for the laptop. Personally I am looking for a CD for the Tadpole Sparcbook 3GS. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Sep 7 14:34:30 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Robert Spinrad, a Pioneer in Computing, Dies at 77 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <510812.32838.qm@web112211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/07/technology/07spinrad.html?em From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Sep 7 14:49:27 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 12:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 1000 mini available (Carson City, Nevada, USA) Message-ID: See below. This is being offered by John Lawson. Contact John directly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 13:09:39 -0400 (EDT) From: John Lawson To: sellam at vintagetech.com Subject: HP 1000 mini The HP Mini I have here is as follows: HP 1000 E-Series Computer Model 2113E Opt 04 Ship Date I2-30-83 Loader ROM Config 00 264X Terminal 01 79XX Disc Date Codes CPU 2305 I/O BP 1713 PWR Su 1724 Access 13306B FRONT SLOTS DCPC D.C.P.C. 111 Mem Protect 112 M.E.M. 113 - 114 - 115 - 116 - 117 - 118 12749H 256KW 119 12749H 256KW 120 - 121 12749H 256KW 122 12749H 256KW 123 2102E Mem Cont (the 0 is actually a 'phi' symbol) BACK SLOTS: 25 I/O BUFFER 24 JUMPER 23 JUMPER 22 GND TRUE IN/OUT 21 BUS I/O 20 JUMPER 17 BACI 12966A 16 JUMPER 15 BACI 12966A 14 12821A DISC INTF 13 BACI 12966A 12 13037 INTF 11 TIME BASE GEN 10 F.E.M. One rocker switch on the front panel is missing; the switch elements themselves are good, just the plastic part is gone. Otherwise in good shape, no evidence of rough handling, etc. Happy to send pix, and/or correspond privately for more info. Unit is as-is, I have not tried to power it up, I no longer have the infastructure to do so. Best offer within a reasonable time - I can ship (for costs, US only, no int'l shipments period.) Can deliver to NoCal / Silicon Valley / SFO area for costs. If deal is made, can bring to Lincoln Ham Swap this Saturday. Cheers John Lawson Carson City, NV From darin.lory at gmail.com Mon Sep 7 16:20:48 2009 From: darin.lory at gmail.com (Darin Lory) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 17:20:48 -0400 Subject: CD IRIX - John O In-Reply-To: <20090907195409.742BT.561339.root@cdptpa-web02-z02> References: <20090907195409.742BT.561339.root@cdptpa-web02-z02> Message-ID: <1E3382FA-96B6-4654-AA3F-8F8B71F6F375@gmail.com> JohnO, I can download the 6.5.22m Maintenance Release from the SGI Supportfolio. Can you update the server or workstation or do you need to do a fresh install? I might have a set of 6.5.22 CDs. -Darin On Sep 7, 2009, at 3:54 PM, wrote: Hello. I am looking for a set of CD a full Installation of IRIX 6.5.22. Where to buy this? Or any recommend? Thanks! JohnO From leaknoil at comcast.net Mon Sep 7 02:38:05 2009 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (leaknoil) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 00:38:05 -0700 Subject: IBM AS/400 9402 C04 help needed In-Reply-To: <4AA4B30F.9090601@brouhaha.com> References: <2b1f1f550909061130i13086aa0k7b556a79b4497b72@mail.gmail.com> <4AA425C0.9010002@comcast.net> <4AA4B30F.9090601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4AA4B85D.5050303@comcast.net> leaknoil wrote: >> I just picked up a pretty cool old CISC based AS/400 box I've been >> having fun exploring. Model 9402 C04. [...] The system now complains >> about invalid system password and wants me to bypass it or enter in a >> valid one. Apparently this is something that gets generated by IBM. I >> just bypassed it but, now the system gives me a messages about the >> bypass ending in 70 days. The funny thing is it keeps saying 70 days >> even after 3 days have past. Y2K issue perhaps? > Probably still 70 days due to the battery having failed. > I replaced the battery and its still saying 70 days no matter how long passes. I have even reset the system time and it keeps on saying 70 days. > Anyhow, I researched this a few years back when I had a CISC AS/400. > To get a new system password, you'll have to pay IBM for an OS/400 > license transfer, since otherwise you don't actually have an OS/400 > license. I wasn't able to find out an exact price for a license > transfer, other than that it would be *many* thousands of dollars. > > IBM changed the OS/400 licensing policy with the RISC-based machines; > on those the OS is licensed to the machine so apparently it can be > transferred with the machine without the astronomical expense. I > haven't tried, though. > > Eric This pretty much is what I have heard too. Although I have also heard of more then one case where explaining your situation to the right person can get you the password as well. Unfortunately usually through sales people rather then the technical side of things. This license thing seems to be more a IBM sales department controlled thing. People working on the technical side have no way to do it from what I've heard. In fact, they don't even seem to know who to contact about it even if they happen to work on the as/400 side of things. From vax at purdue.edu Mon Sep 7 08:24:13 2009 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 09:24:13 -0400 Subject: Manual for Mountain Hardware RTC S-100 Board In-Reply-To: <46573114-9351-4717-9F13-EC5BC2507015@neurotica.com> References: <000001ca2efd$9ce77ae0$d6b670a0$@org> <46573114-9351-4717-9F13-EC5BC2507015@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200909070924.13342.vax@purdue.edu> On Monday 07 September 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ok, so does anyone seriously, really, honestly think setting > Reply- To: headers to the list is actually a good idea? Seriously? If no one did, they wouldn't be set that way. :) But seriously, I'm sure that this was someone sending email using the address in the email archive, where people's addresses are munged to cctalk at classiccmp.org, so that it isn't a database of email addresses for spammers to mine from. This has nothing to do with setting Reply- To: addresses. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From j30xeio at ca.rr.com Mon Sep 7 14:54:09 2009 From: j30xeio at ca.rr.com (j30xeio at ca.rr.com) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 15:54:09 -0400 Subject: CD IRIX - John O Message-ID: <20090907195409.742BT.561339.root@cdptpa-web02-z02> Hello. I am looking for a set of CD a full Installation of IRIX 6.5.22. Where to buy this? Or any recommend? Thanks! JohnO From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Sep 7 17:11:26 2009 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 15:11:26 -0700 Subject: CD IRIX - John O In-Reply-To: <20090907195409.742BT.561339.root@cdptpa-web02-z02> References: <20090907195409.742BT.561339.root@cdptpa-web02-z02> Message-ID: <200909071511.27079.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 07 September 2009, j30xeio at ca.rr.com wrote: > Hello. > > I am looking for a set of CD a full Installation > of IRIX 6.5.22. Where to buy this? Or any recommend? Here's a site I recommend. I've know Ian, the person who owns the site, for years. He's reliable and honest: http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgidepot/cds.html Here's a pointer to his U.S. mirror SGI technical site: http://vintagecomputers.info/sgi.html Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 7 17:46:44 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 18:46:44 -0400 Subject: VCF East - T-minus 4 days!! Message-ID: <4AA58D54.6080700@snarc.net> Final count is 23 exhibitors. (Or 22.5; one person is only coming the second day.) Here's the list: http://www.vintage.org/2009/east/exhibit.php (gotta scroll down). From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Sep 8 01:19:08 2009 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 08:19:08 +0200 Subject: Datasheet for National DP8490 ... Message-ID: <20090908061916.011661F6A4C@mac-mini.local> Hi, i got a request from someone who wants to emulate a DB8490 in a FPGA ... ... this will be used for a homebrew NS3532 system, that will somehow emulate a pc532 (to get NetBSD up and running ...). Unfortunately, i don't have my National data book currently at hand (it's somewhere hidden under some piles :)), on bitsavers, i didn't find it too and google wasn't me friend too ... Does anyone have an online copy available ? Thanks a lot Bernd From jgessling at yahoo.com Tue Sep 8 08:48:32 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 06:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage DEC stuff Message-ID: <736714.66641.qm@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I received this message through the encompass (ne DECUS) mailing list. Please contact David directly if you have any interest. Thanks, Jim --- On Tue, 9/8/09, David Gelman wrote: > > The following items are about to be crushed unless I can > find a home at some deserving organisation (e.g. museum, > school, collector, etc.) > > Cabinet 1???????????? > MV3900 + TS07 + PDP 11/73 + TK70 + BA23 expansion chassis > > Cabinet 2???????????? > VAX 4000 + M2444 reel Tape Drive > > Cabinet 3???????????? > MVII + PDP 11/23 + PDP 11/23+ + RL02 +RD53/4 > > Cabinet 4???????????? > VAX 7810 > > Cabinet 5???????????? > HSC70 > > Cabinet 6???????????? > TU81+ > > Cabinet 7? > VAX 6310 > > Most items look complete and I > don?t think they have been scavenged for spares. I do > not have configuration details and do not have the time to > investigate. Ideally they should go as a job lot. > > Location is Leeds, West Yorkshire, > UK. Can help out with delivery if close to one of our sites. > > David > > David.gelman at icm-computer.co.uk > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 8 10:21:17 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 08:21:17 -0700 Subject: Datasheet for National DP8490 ... In-Reply-To: <20090908061916.011661F6A4C@mac-mini.local> References: <20090908061916.011661F6A4C@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: <4AA6766D.4010802@bitsavers.org> Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Hi, > i got a request from someone who wants to emulate a DB8490 in a FPGA ... > ... this will be used for a homebrew NS3532 system, that will somehow emulate a pc532 (to get > NetBSD up and running ...). > Unfortunately, i don't have my National data book currently at hand (it's somewhere hidden under > some piles :)), on bitsavers, i didn't find it too 1989_Mass_Storage_Handbook_04 From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Sep 8 11:06:45 2009 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:06:45 +0200 Subject: Datasheet for National DP8490 ... In-Reply-To: <4AA6766D.4010802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20090908160657.7F9D81F6BB8@mac-mini.local> Hi Al, thanks a lot ... ... i have checked some of the PDF's but not the obvious ones :) Ciao Bernd On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 08:21:17 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >Bernd Kopriva wrote: >> Hi, >> i got a request from someone who wants to emulate a DB8490 in a FPGA ... >> ... this will be used for a homebrew NS3532 system, that will somehow emulate a pc532 (to get >> NetBSD up and running ...). >> Unfortunately, i don't have my National data book currently at hand (it's somewhere hidden under >> some piles :)), on bitsavers, i didn't find it too >1989_Mass_Storage_Handbook_04 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 8 11:36:39 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:36:39 +0100 Subject: Vintage DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <736714.66641.qm@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <736714.66641.qm@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007201ca30a2$8b74c000$a25e4000$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> It seems someone has claimed the entire lot. Would that person be prepared to part with the RD 53/4 and perhaps the MVII? I am in South Manchester. Regards Rob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Gessling Sent: 08 September 2009 14:49 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Vintage DEC stuff I received this message through the encompass (ne DECUS) mailing list. Please contact David directly if you have any interest. Thanks, Jim --- On Tue, 9/8/09, David Gelman wrote: > > The following items are about to be crushed unless I can > find a home at some deserving organisation (e.g. museum, > school, collector, etc.) > > Cabinet 1 > MV3900 + TS07 + PDP 11/73 + TK70 + BA23 expansion chassis > > Cabinet 2 > VAX 4000 + M2444 reel Tape Drive > > Cabinet 3 > MVII + PDP 11/23 + PDP 11/23+ + RL02 +RD53/4 > > Cabinet 4 > VAX 7810 > > Cabinet 5 > HSC70 > > Cabinet 6 > TU81+ > > Cabinet 7 > VAX 6310 > > Most items look complete and I > don?t think they have been scavenged for spares. I do > not have configuration details and do not have the time to > investigate. Ideally they should go as a job lot. > > Location is Leeds, West Yorkshire, > UK. Can help out with delivery if close to one of our sites. > > David > > David.gelman at icm-computer.co.uk > From leaknoil at comcast.net Tue Sep 8 01:39:10 2009 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (leaknoil) Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 23:39:10 -0700 Subject: CD IRIX - John O In-Reply-To: <1E3382FA-96B6-4654-AA3F-8F8B71F6F375@gmail.com> References: <20090907195409.742BT.561339.root@cdptpa-web02-z02> <1E3382FA-96B6-4654-AA3F-8F8B71F6F375@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AA5FC0E.6060602@comcast.net> Darin Lory wrote: > JohnO, > > I can download the 6.5.22m Maintenance Release from the SGI > Supportfolio. Can you update the server or workstation or do you > need to do a fresh install? > I noticed if you do a 'install standard' instead of 'install upgrade' it seems to bring the os to 6.5.22f instead of 6.5.22m off the 6.5.22m overlays you can download off the SGI site. Not sure if there is anything missing or not. I usually boot into single user mode and do the install. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 8 13:48:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 19:48:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Datasheet for National DP8490 ... In-Reply-To: <20090908061916.011661F6A4C@mac-mini.local> from "Bernd Kopriva" at Sep 8, 9 08:19:08 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > i got a request from someone who wants to emulate a DB8490 in a FPGA ... > ... this will be used for a homebrew NS3532 system, that will somehow emulate a pc532 (to get > NetBSD up and running ...). > Unfortunately, i don't have my National data book currently at hand (it's somewhere hidden under > some piles :)), on bitsavers, i didn't find it too and google wasn't me friend too ... > > Does anyone have an online copy available ? I am pretty sure the National Semiconductor disk controller databook is on bitsavers (Al very kindly scanned it when I was asking about data separator ICs to help with sorting out an HP7959B). I remember the links to it wrre pretty obvious (something like national/databooks), but I can't rememebr exactly. That databook should contain the 8490 too. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 8 16:23:38 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 17:23:38 -0400 Subject: Signature Analysis (was Re: Omrom programmable terminal) In-Reply-To: <4AA02638.2060707@bitsavers.org> References: <4A9F67D4.30978.2C994C8D@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA0231E.30697.E8A6C6@cclist.sydex.com> <4AA02638.2060707@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/3/09, Al Kossow wrote: > Atari and Fluke also provided signature analysis on some of their > schematics. The Fluke 9010 microprocessor analyzer had a signature > analysis option. We used a Fluke 9010 for initial hardware checkout of COMBOARDs (the very 9010 that I still have). We never put the time into it to generate signatures, though. We just checked ROM (checksums), RAM, and stuck bus bits, the three simplest and most common symptoms of manufacturing defects for our product. After that, we just hit "Run UUT" and used firmware-level diagnostics since we were confident that the boards would run our code at that point. Did anyone reading this ever generate signatures for a Fluke 9010, or did most people just use it the way we did? -ethan From seanm at cae.com.au Tue Sep 8 20:00:42 2009 From: seanm at cae.com.au (Sean McHugh) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 11:00:42 +1000 Subject: Vintage Intel Computer - Intellec MDS questions Message-ID: <91839F8AACA8364DB08C06C2AC55137F02ECC4@caenowexch02.cae.com.au> Hi Joe, I came across this page and this comment from 2005: http://archive.netbsd.se/?ml=cctech&a=2005-01&t=640496 "Actually I have a pile of iSBC 215 HD controller's but they're configured for the 86/330 systems and I don't have the proper PALs and jumper settings for them for use in the MDS systems." I found your e-mail addresses elsewhere. I sent this e-mail to both the addresses hoping that one will still be active after four years. I was wondering if any of the cards are serviceable and would already be suitable as HD controllers for an INTEL 86/330 system. If so, might you be willing to sell any? The details for the controller of interest are: Description: Winchester Disk Controller. Part Number: iSBC 215B Host: Intel 86/330 with RMX86 operating system. Cheers, Sean McHugh From brian.bergantz at verigy.com Tue Sep 8 22:11:43 2009 From: brian.bergantz at verigy.com (Bergantz, Brian) Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 22:11:43 -0500 Subject: MMD-2 Docs Message-ID: <9F8D93FB7F195F49AC5FA9FF6E6F66AE01445CCA@usplmvpbe002.ent.rt.verigy.net> Hi Neil, I have some mmd-2 doc's do you still need them? CDC short microprocessor course text reference and lab which uses the MMD-2. MMD-2 Tutorial Users guide MMD-Exec C source listing As I just e_mailed you for MMD-1 data, IT looks like our paths need to cross... Brian Bergantz, bergantz95118 at yahoo.com From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 9 15:33:07 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 13:33:07 -0700 Subject: You just can't buy these anymore Message-ID: One of the few items damaged in the shipping of our PDP7 from University of Oregon was a handful of the front panel switches. The switches themselves are a standard telephone switch and are still available! But the long, tapered bat handles were unobtainium. So, one of our folks with above-average mechanical aptitude *made* some for us: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hUEPfgKJwY Pretty cool, huh? UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum A project of Vulcan, Inc. http://www.livingcomputermuseum.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 9 16:58:21 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 17:58:21 -0400 Subject: You just can't buy these anymore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > One of the few items damaged in the shipping of our PDP7 from University of Oregon was a handful of the front panel switches. ?The switches themselves are a standard telephone switch and are still available! ?But the long, tapered bat handles were unobtainium. Those handles seem to have been in someone's standard part line, as I have had them in stock as an on-and-off item. Right now, off, in case your wondering. -- Will From onlineuser at mac.com Wed Sep 9 12:02:34 2009 From: onlineuser at mac.com (Doug Clements) Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 10:02:34 -0700 Subject: IBM pc/xt/at technical documentation... Message-ID: <9C98678E-4D62-43BE-86DF-2ED5197C636D@mac.com> Dan, I know this is really old... but do you still have these? I have the following guides available, if there is any interest: 6025000 "Guide to Operations" 6025005 "Technical Reference" From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Sep 10 04:30:44 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 10:30:44 +0100 Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore References: Message-ID: <001d01ca31f9$5fab25b0$961ca8c0@mss.local> >>Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore >>One of the few items damaged in the shipping of our PDP7 from University >>of Oregon was a handful of the front panel switches. The switches >>themselves are a standard telephone switch and are still available! But >>the long, tapered bat handles were unobtainium. Same happened to Tore's PDP7 system in Oslo, he may be interested but I think restoration of that system has stalled. What are the switches, type # supplier ?. I thought they were a C&K 7101 style, I'm looking into creating a front panel with modern elcectronics for a lookey-likey blinkenlights. >>So, one of our folks with above-average mechanical aptitude *made* some >>for us: >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hUEPfgKJwY >>Pretty cool, huh? You can do anything with the right tools ! Would appreciate any photos or info on the restoration for the PDP-7 register Regards Mike. http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html >>UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. >>Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer >>Living Computer Museum >>A project of Vulcan, Inc. >>http://www.livingcomputermuseum.com From halarewich at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 06:01:53 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 04:01:53 -0700 Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore In-Reply-To: <001d01ca31f9$5fab25b0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <001d01ca31f9$5fab25b0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <6d6501090909100401p71ac4b24ua9424624aa06c62e@mail.gmail.com> is this what your looking for $0.59 each http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/24B030/179/C%26K-7101-mini-lever-PC-mount-switch . On 9/10/09, Mike Hatch wrote: > > Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore >>> One of the few items damaged in the shipping of our PDP7 from University >>> of Oregon was a handful of the front panel switches. The switches >>> themselves are a standard telephone switch and are still available! But the >>> long, tapered bat handles were unobtainium. >>> >> > Same happened to Tore's PDP7 system in Oslo, he may be interested but I > think restoration of that system has stalled. > > What are the switches, type # supplier ?. I thought they were a C&K 7101 > style, I'm looking into creating a front panel with modern elcectronics for > a lookey-likey blinkenlights. > > So, one of our folks with above-average mechanical aptitude *made* some >>> for us: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hUEPfgKJwY >>> Pretty cool, huh? >>> >> You can do anything with the right tools ! > > Would appreciate any photos or info on the restoration for the PDP-7 > register > > Regards > Mike. > http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html > > UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. >>> Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer >>> Living Computer Museum >>> A project of Vulcan, Inc. >>> http://www.livingcomputermuseum.com >>> >> > > > > > > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Sep 10 07:37:24 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:37:24 +0100 Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore References: <001d01ca31f9$5fab25b0$961ca8c0@mss.local> <6d6501090909100401p71ac4b24ua9424624aa06c62e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001a01ca3213$730b2c80$961ca8c0@mss.local> Thanks, I can get C&K switches, I was hoping Ian would detail what he meant by "standard telephone switch", what it is and where from as its still available. All the same your 59c switch is very cheap, more expensive over here. Regards, Mike Web - www.soemtron.org PDP-7 - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Halarewich" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 12:01 PM Subject: Re: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore > is this what your looking for $0.59 each > > http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/24B030/179/C%26K-7101-mini-lever-PC-mount-switch > . > > > On 9/10/09, Mike Hatch wrote: >> >> Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore >>>> One of the few items damaged in the shipping of our PDP7 from >>>> University >>>> of Oregon was a handful of the front panel switches. The switches >>>> themselves are a standard telephone switch and are still available! >>>> But the >>>> long, tapered bat handles were unobtainium. >>>> >>> >> Same happened to Tore's PDP7 system in Oslo, he may be interested but I >> think restoration of that system has stalled. >> >> What are the switches, type # supplier ?. I thought they were a C&K 7101 >> style, I'm looking into creating a front panel with modern elcectronics >> for >> a lookey-likey blinkenlights. >> >> So, one of our folks with above-average mechanical aptitude *made* some >>>> for us: >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hUEPfgKJwY >>>> Pretty cool, huh? >>>> >>> You can do anything with the right tools ! >> >> Would appreciate any photos or info on the restoration for the PDP-7 >> register >> >> Regards >> Mike. >> http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html >> >> UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. >>>> Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer >>>> Living Computer Museum >>>> A project of Vulcan, Inc. >>>> http://www.livingcomputermuseum.com >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 10 08:42:29 2009 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:42:29 -0400 Subject: Scelbi-8H on ebay In-Reply-To: <9C98678E-4D62-43BE-86DF-2ED5197C636D@mac.com> References: <9C98678E-4D62-43BE-86DF-2ED5197C636D@mac.com> Message-ID: <4AA90245.3060406@bellsouth.net> I haven't seen (m)any of these on ebay... several pics too, nice looking machine... ebay item number 120468074399. Starting bid of $2k. Damn my empty wallet. ;) - Mike From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Sep 10 09:13:35 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 07:13:35 -0700 Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore In-Reply-To: <6d6501090909100401p71ac4b24ua9424624aa06c62e@mail.gmail.com> References: <001d01ca31f9$5fab25b0$961ca8c0@mss.local>, <6d6501090909100401p71ac4b24ua9424624aa06c62e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That's nothing like the stock switch on the PDP7. I'll dig out the part number and share it -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Halarewich [halarewich at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 4:01 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore is this what your looking for $0.59 each http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/24B030/179/C%26K-7101-mini-lever-PC-mount-switch . On 9/10/09, Mike Hatch wrote: > > Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore >>> One of the few items damaged in the shipping of our PDP7 from University >>> of Oregon was a handful of the front panel switches. The switches >>> themselves are a standard telephone switch and are still available! But the >>> long, tapered bat handles were unobtainium. >>> >> > Same happened to Tore's PDP7 system in Oslo, he may be interested but I > think restoration of that system has stalled. > > What are the switches, type # supplier ?. I thought they were a C&K 7101 > style, I'm looking into creating a front panel with modern elcectronics for > a lookey-likey blinkenlights. > > So, one of our folks with above-average mechanical aptitude *made* some >>> for us: >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hUEPfgKJwY >>> Pretty cool, huh? >>> >> You can do anything with the right tools ! > > Would appreciate any photos or info on the restoration for the PDP-7 > register > > Regards > Mike. > http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html > > UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. >>> Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer >>> Living Computer Museum >>> A project of Vulcan, Inc. >>> http://www.livingcomputermuseum.com >>> >> > > > > > > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 10 12:59:11 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 17:59:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) Message-ID: <372814.73537.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, Now I'm not suggesting that anyone here wants to give up their game collections, but I'm just curious as to what peoples opinions are about Toys R Us's decision. Are retro games really worth that much, or are they just after the scrap metal and boards??? "Toys R Us is rolling out its video game trade-in program nationwide today, allowing customers to sell games from as far back as the (OMG!) Intellivision. Those who use the program will receive gift cards for the value of their trade-in, which can be used for any product at Toys R Us, Babies R Us or online at Toysrus.com." http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/10/toys-r-us-rolls-out-national-game-trade-in-program-classic-game/ Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Sep 10 13:21:12 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <372814.73537.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5365.28824.qm@web112201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yes.. Retro games are worth a good chunk of change.. I have Panzer Dragoon Saga for the Sega Saturn which is like $200 on ebay. Here is a good site that talks about valuable games http://www.racketboy.com/guide/the-rarest-and-most-valuable-video-games --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Andrew Burton wrote: > Are retro games really worth that much, or are they just after the > scrap metal and boards??? From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Sep 10 13:23:21 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 14:23:21 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches (WAS: You just can't buy these anymore) Message-ID: <01CA3222.4348C5C0@MSE_D03> Speaking of front panels, I've always wondered: In my days with Burroughs systems, the operator consoles that had "front panels" and many of their maintenance panels used illuminated momentary push buttons that toggled on/off; that always struck me as more intuitive (not to mention faster to set up) than separate lights and switches. Granted it would require extra logic to latch the states, but was that kind of front panel ever used on any of the micros and minis that we discuss here? mike From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Sep 10 13:32:24 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:32:24 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches (WAS: You just can't buy these anymore) In-Reply-To: <01CA3222.4348C5C0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA3222.4348C5C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <81B5B053-CE09-494B-BB84-A86CC29C400C@shiresoft.com> On Sep 10, 2009, at 11:23 AM, M H Stein wrote: > Speaking of front panels, I've always wondered: > > In my days with Burroughs systems, the operator consoles that had > "front panels" and many of their maintenance panels used illuminated > momentary push buttons that toggled on/off; that always struck me > as more intuitive (not to mention faster to set up) than separate > lights > and switches. > > Granted it would require extra logic to latch the states, but was that > kind of front panel ever used on any of the micros and minis that we > discuss here? Yes, the HP 2114 comes to mind. It was a bit different because the switches were capacitive sense (so there was no physical movement). TTFN - Guy From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 10 13:36:34 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:36:34 -0700 Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <5365.28824.qm@web112201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <5365.28824.qm@web112201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The thing is I don't see Toys R Us selling vintage games. My fear is that Andrew hit it on the head, they'll end up as scrap. Why does this feel like as bad of an idea as "cash for clunkers"? Zane At 11:21 AM -0700 9/10/09, Christian Liendo wrote: >Yes.. Retro games are worth a good chunk of change.. > >I have Panzer Dragoon Saga for the Sega Saturn which is like $200 on ebay. > >Here is a good site that talks about valuable games > >http://www.racketboy.com/guide/the-rarest-and-most-valuable-video-games > > >--- On Thu, 9/10/09, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> Are retro games really worth that much, or are they just after the >> scrap metal and boards??? > > > > -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 10 14:03:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:03:25 -0400 Subject: Scelbi-8H on ebay In-Reply-To: <4AA90245.3060406@bellsouth.net> References: <9C98678E-4D62-43BE-86DF-2ED5197C636D@mac.com> <4AA90245.3060406@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Sep 10, 2009, at 9:42 AM, Mike wrote: > I haven't seen (m)any of these on ebay... several pics too, nice > looking machine... ebay item number 120468074399. Starting bid of > $2k. Damn my empty wallet. > > ;) *sniffle* *sob* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 10 14:12:06 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:12:06 -0700 Subject: Front panel switches (WAS: You just can't buy these anymore) In-Reply-To: <01CA3222.4348C5C0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA3222.4348C5C0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4AA94F86.8090209@brouhaha.com> M H Stein wrote: > In my days with Burroughs systems, the operator consoles that had > "front panels" and many of their maintenance panels used illuminated > momentary push buttons that toggled on/off; that always struck me > as more intuitive (not to mention faster to set up) than separate lights > and switches. > The DEC KI10 (PDP-10 processor ca. 1973) did that also, as did the Fabritek BI-TRAN SIX. It is NOT faster for data entry, because you effectively have to manually XOR each entry with the previous one. It might be OK if there were a clear button (as there is on the BI-TRAN SIX), or if the entry word cleared itself after deposit, though the latter would be bad when you actually want to enter consecutive identical non-zero words. Toggles (with suitable handles) are much easier for binary entry, because you can push them up or down without regard to their previous state. With practice you can easily enter octal data three bits at a time using three fingers. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 10 14:13:53 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:13:53 -0400 Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) References: <5365.28824.qm@web112201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2AC62321F0004B9F8CE829DD332DEAEF@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 2:36 PM Subject: Re: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) > The thing is I don't see Toys R Us selling vintage games. My fear is that > Andrew hit it on the head, they'll end up as scrap. Why does this feel > like as bad of an idea as "cash for clunkers"? > > Zane > > I am sure Toys-R-Us will not be reselling the games directly, but they probably have somebody they will sell them in bulk to who will resell them. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 10 14:34:48 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:34:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Front panel switches (WAS: You just can't buy these anymore) In-Reply-To: <01CA3222.4348C5C0@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Sep 10, 9 02:23:21 pm Message-ID: > > Speaking of front panels, I've always wondered: > > In my days with Burroughs systems, the operator consoles that had > "front panels" and many of their maintenance panels used illuminated > momentary push buttons that toggled on/off; that always struck me > as more intuitive (not to mention faster to set up) than separate lights > and switches. > > Granted it would require extra logic to latch the states, but was that > kind of front panel ever used on any of the micros and minis that we > discuss here? Never sene such a panel on a micro, but HP used them on some their machines and peripherals. I am pretty suee that's how the panel on the HP2100A behaves, and I know it's how the panel on the HP6940 multiprogrammer (a versatile I/O system) works, because I restored the latter a couple of mnths back. Perhaps it's beacues I got to use the toggle-switch and seaprate lamps panel first, but I much prefer those ot the illumanted buttons ones. But I susepct it's very much personal taste. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 10 14:59:09 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:59:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <2AC62321F0004B9F8CE829DD332DEAEF@dell8300> Message-ID: <487097.68034.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yes, that is what I am hoping too. I have seen footage of plenty of retro shops in Japan (especially Shibuya, Tokyo). They have shelves filled with NES, SNES, Atari and many other retro games... with some of the rarer ones displayed alone in plastic (or maybe glass) cases. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 10/9/09, Teo Zenios wrote: From: Teo Zenios Subject: Re: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, 10 September, 2009, 8:13 PM I am sure Toys-R-Us will not be reselling the games directly, but they probably have somebody they will sell them in bulk to who will resell them. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 10 15:12:16 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <487097.68034.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> from Andrew Burton at "Sep 10, 9 07:59:09 pm" Message-ID: <200909102012.n8AKCGth018702@floodgap.com> > Yes, that is what I am hoping too. I have seen footage of plenty of retro > shops in Japan (especially Shibuya, Tokyo). My Pyuuta Mk II, one of my Commodore Ultimax-en and a couple of my Pyuutas were Akihabara finds. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Greek tailor shop: "Euripedes?" "Yes -- Eumenides?" ------------------------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 10 15:14:04 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 13:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <487097.68034.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <487097.68034.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: We have a shop something like that here. At one point my wife and I would walk in and they'd pull out any oddball/rare systems they had just gotten in. We're no longer regular enough customers, though they had 2-3 systems that really tempted us the last time we were in there... They have games going all the way back to early 8-bit. Zane On Thu, 10 Sep 2009, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Yes, that is what I am hoping too. I have seen footage of plenty of retro > shops in Japan (especially Shibuya, Tokyo). They have shelves filled with > NES, SNES, Atari and many other retro games... with some of the rarer ones > displayed alone in plastic (or maybe glass) cases. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > --- On Thu, 10/9/09, Teo Zenios wrote: > > From: Teo Zenios > Subject: Re: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, 10 September, 2009, 8:13 PM > > > I am sure Toys-R-Us will not be reselling the games directly, but they > probably have somebody they will sell them in bulk to who will resell > them. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 10 15:15:53 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:15:53 -0400 Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <200909102012.n8AKCGth018702@floodgap.com> References: <200909102012.n8AKCGth018702@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sep 10, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Yes, that is what I am hoping too. I have seen footage of plenty >> of retro >> shops in Japan (especially Shibuya, Tokyo). > > My Pyuuta Mk II, one of my Commodore Ultimax-en and a couple of my > Pyuutas > were Akihabara finds. Such language! ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 10 15:15:18 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 20:15:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <5365.28824.qm@web112201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <23344.77078.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hehe, Panzer Dragoon Saga is still worth quite a bit. I have all three for the Saturn (Panzer Dragoon 1 & 2, and Panzer Dragoon Saga)... and they are all great games, with amazing FMV for the time (1995/1996). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 10/9/09, Christian Liendo wrote: From: Christian Liendo Subject: Re: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, 10 September, 2009, 7:21 PM Yes.. Retro games are worth a good chunk of change.. I have Panzer Dragoon Saga for the Sega Saturn which is like $200 on ebay. Here is a good site that talks about valuable games http://www.racketboy.com/guide/the-rarest-and-most-valuable-video-games --- On Thu, 9/10/09, Andrew Burton wrote: >? Are retro games really worth that much, or are they just after the > scrap metal and boards??? ? ? ? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 15:21:02 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 16:21:02 -0400 Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: References: <200909102012.n8AKCGth018702@floodgap.com> Message-ID: :On Sep 10, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > My Pyuuta Mk II, one of my Commodore Ultimax-en and a couple of my > Pyuutas were Akihabara finds. I wish I'd known about Akihabara when I was in Japan a few years back. -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Sep 10 17:21:25 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:21:25 -0700 Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore In-Reply-To: References: <001d01ca31f9$5fab25b0$961ca8c0@mss.local>, <6d6501090909100401p71ac4b24ua9424624aa06c62e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Here's a link to the distributor's page: http://www.surplussales.com/switches/SWLeaf-1.html Note that these are existing manufacturers. The style used in the PDP-7 is either the SC2P1T or 160312, depending on how many positions and contacts you need. These fit perfectly and are indistinguishable from the originals. -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King > Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 7:14 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore > > That's nothing like the stock switch on the PDP7. I'll dig out the > part number and share it -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of Chris Halarewich [halarewich at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 4:01 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore > > is this what your looking for $0.59 each > > http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/24B030/179/C%26K-7101-mini- > lever-PC-mount-switch > . > > > On 9/10/09, Mike Hatch wrote: > > > > Subject: [personal] You just can't buy these anymore > >>> One of the few items damaged in the shipping of our PDP7 from > University > >>> of Oregon was a handful of the front panel switches. The switches > >>> themselves are a standard telephone switch and are still available! > But the > >>> long, tapered bat handles were unobtainium. > >>> > >> > > Same happened to Tore's PDP7 system in Oslo, he may be interested but > I > > think restoration of that system has stalled. > > > > What are the switches, type # supplier ?. I thought they were a C&K > 7101 > > style, I'm looking into creating a front panel with modern > elcectronics for > > a lookey-likey blinkenlights. > > > > So, one of our folks with above-average mechanical aptitude *made* > some > >>> for us: > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hUEPfgKJwY > >>> Pretty cool, huh? > >>> > >> You can do anything with the right tools ! > > > > Would appreciate any photos or info on the restoration for the PDP-7 > > register > > > > Regards > > Mike. > > http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html > > > > UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends > are. > >>> Ian S. King, Sr. Vintage Systems Engineer > >>> Living Computer Museum > >>> A project of Vulcan, Inc. > >>> http://www.livingcomputermuseum.com > >>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 22:49:50 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:49:50 -0500 Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: References: <200909102012.n8AKCGth018702@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909102049i62582068vc565416fd09bd33c@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I wish I'd known about Akihabara when I was in Japan a few years back. > > -ethan I spent 2.5 years in japan around middle school time back in the 80s. Akihabara was about a monthly trip for me. Didn't buy much, just looked around. It's an amazing place, although I haven't seen it in 20 years. I saved my yen and bought an original Famicom and computer keyboard upgrade, with a PAL tv. Had around 10 cartridges including the original excitebike. Alas, it all left in a garage sale when I was a poor college student. :-/ brian From john_finigan at yahoo.com Fri Sep 11 00:23:48 2009 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (John Finigan) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 22:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dg/ux filesystem paper Message-ID: <209180.95178.qm@web37001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I recently saw an old academic paper out of Clemson that had this bibliography entry: M. H. Kelley. A look at the DG/UX file system. Technical Report 3, Data General Corporation, 1990 Anybody have any pointers on getting a copy? I've seen no trace of it on the web, and actually very little DG/UX info in general (even some man pages would be interesting), but the ancient marketing stuff I have seen makes me suspect they had one of the earliest journalling FSs in UNIX, and I'd love to know if that was really true. John Finigan From g-wright at att.net Fri Sep 11 01:01:56 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 06:01:56 +0000 Subject: unisys b38 modular computer, info needed Message-ID: <091120090601.3715.4AA9E7D400025EE400000E8322230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I have 2 of these and lack power supplies (large external ones) and video/keyboard interface. These have a DB25 that says Video but not much else. other than a few serial ports. I have no idea if they have CTOS on them or what OS . need at least the power supply bricks. Any experts out there. Thanks, Jerry From mainpatents at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 13:23:10 2009 From: mainpatents at gmail.com (Richard Main) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:23:10 -0700 Subject: Intellec MDS questions Message-ID: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> Dave, Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes available? I have a Series II MDS-225. Richard Brewster Main, Esq. Patent Attorney 9832 Lois Stiltner Ct. Elk Grove, CA 95624 mainpatents at gmail.com http://mainpatents.com/ cell: 650-575-4624 FAX: 650-641-3126 home: 916-494-2571 ================================================= CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: E-mail may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. Do not read this e-mail if you are not the intended recipient. This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by reply e-mail, by forwarding this e-mail to mainpatents at gmail.com or contacting us by telephone at (650) 575-4624, and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank you. From tad at rave.com Thu Sep 10 14:10:28 2009 From: tad at rave.com (Tad Bilby) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:10:28 -0400 Subject: SunBlade 2000 vs SunBlade 2500 vs Ultra 45 References: <4A77B5A8.8030104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <55A896C8ADF30847A3C9BA5785DC928501736994@rave-exchange.rave.com> It really depends on which trade off's you want. I personally would go with an Ultra 45 as SCSI is on its way out and you will be able to get SATA drives most likely for longer down the road. The larger CPU cache and UPA slot on the SB2000 can make it slightly faster depending on the application, - Tad * -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 12:15 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SunBlade 2000 vs SunBlade 2500 vs Ultra 45 Might be pushing 'classic' a bit.... as the 'oldest' of these three is only 7 years old.... so... if these aren't 'classic' enough yet... please forgive me :-) So.... which one is best in your opinion ? The 2000 takes UltraSparc III, 8MB cache (at 200mhz bus), the 2500 and U45 use UltraSparc IIIi, 1MB cache on chip (but how are the cycles to it ?) Beyond that, memory tech differs... 2000 takes ?, the 2500 takes ECC DDR266, and the U45 ECC DDR333. The 2000 and 2500 do SCSI, while the U45 does SAS/SATA. But beyond that, how is reliability, how is USIII vs USIIIi performance ? The 2000 will do vertical UPA, right ? (I have some C3D cards from U60) The 2500 looks like fastest slot is 64 bit 66mhz 3.3V PCI (so what Sun GFX cards go in there?). And the U45 has PCI-X and PCIe x16. (I assume graphics there is usually via the PCIe x16, right ? Looking for 'best' desktop Sparc.... assume it would be one of these three, no ? Thanks, -- Curt From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 16:02:54 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:02:54 -0600 Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: References: <200909102012.n8AKCGth018702@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0909101402v6d6e5fe7n95e90ba95fe4d204@mail.gmail.com> Yah, Super Potato is probably the biggest retro shop in Akihabara. Unfortunately, they don't ship overseas. Here's a gallery of the store - http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/review-78-Super+Potato,+THE+place+for+gamers,+HDTV.html On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > :On Sep 10, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > My Pyuuta Mk II, one of my Commodore Ultimax-en and a couple of my > > Pyuutas were Akihabara finds. > > I wish I'd known about Akihabara when I was in Japan a few years back. > > -ethan > From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Sep 10 16:35:07 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:35:07 -0600 Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <372814.73537.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <372814.73537.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0909101435i171032ci59fad459b7f53054@mail.gmail.com> I see nothing so far though that states they're taking anything as far back as the Intellivision, other than surmising by Joystiq. Even the poster that was included in an earlier article mentions about ESRB ratings and disc quality leads one to believe it's talking about PS1 era on up: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/03/02/toys-r-us-testing-the-waters-of-the-used-games-business/ On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Hi, > > Now I'm not suggesting that anyone here wants to give up their game > collections, but I'm just curious as to what peoples opinions are about Toys > R Us's decision. Are retro games really worth that much, or are they just > after the scrap metal and boards??? > > "Toys R Us is rolling out its video game trade-in program nationwide today, > allowing customers to sell games from as far back as the (OMG!) > Intellivision. > Those who use the program will receive gift cards for the value of > their trade-in, which can be used for any product at Toys R Us, Babies > R Us or online at Toysrus.com." > > > http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/10/toys-r-us-rolls-out-national-game-trade-in-program-classic-game/ > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Sep 11 04:40:17 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 10:40:17 +0100 Subject: PDP8-M on ebay References: <9C98678E-4D62-43BE-86DF-2ED5197C636D@mac.com> <4AA90245.3060406@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <000701ca32c3$dfab2fb0$961ca8c0@mss.local> ebay item number 160359725456, very local to me but not at that price ! Mike H, Web - www.soemtron.org PDP-7 - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) and an ASR33 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Sep 11 04:58:59 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:58:59 +0200 Subject: PDP8-M on ebay In-Reply-To: <000701ca32c3$dfab2fb0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <9C98678E-4D62-43BE-86DF-2ED5197C636D@mac.com> <4AA90245.3060406@bellsouth.net> <000701ca32c3$dfab2fb0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <20090911095859.GA22110@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 10:40:17AM +0100, Mike Hatch wrote: > ebay item number 160359725456, very local to me but not at that price ! Not to bad I think, previous eights have gone for several thousand dollars. This auction has not ended yet, so it might go up. /P From philip.webb at dpts.co.uk Fri Sep 11 10:00:00 2009 From: philip.webb at dpts.co.uk (Philip Webb) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 16:00:00 +0100 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? Message-ID: <0E00C6AF262302458B9EEA60FD6613B6010DD933@hermes.dpts.local> I could point you in the right direction if you still needed some DPTS Ltd Registered Office: Unit 2.02 Crayfields Industrial Park, Main Road, St Paul's Cray, Kent, BR5 3HP, England. Registered in England Number: 2067030. VAT Number: 367 3932 22 From feldman.r at comcast.net Fri Sep 11 12:20:44 2009 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 17:20:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) Message-ID: <1602750586.134041252689644773.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> It looks like they will be resold, as the price they offer differs on whether the game is complete ("A complete game must include working game (scratches are OK), original case and cover art. The manual is preferred but not required.") or incomplete ("An incomplete game must include a working game (scratches are OK). The box, artwork and manual are not required."). It also varies by game. http://www.toysrustradeincenter.com/Terms.aspx The trade-in web site is not part of the regular Toys-R-Us site, so it does look like it is somewhat separate from the regular corporation. Bob Message: 8 Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:13:53 -0400 From: "Teo Zenios" < teoz at neo.rr.com > Subject: Re: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) I am sure Toys-R-Us will not be reselling the games directly, but they probably have somebody they will sell them in bulk to who will resell them. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 11 13:25:16 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e0909101435i171032ci59fad459b7f53054@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575712.18473.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> On this page: http://www.toysrustradeincenter.com/vintage.aspx?searchstring=generic you will see that they take Atari 2600 games ($0.50 per generic game). Admittedly, all other games are for Sega, Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony consoles. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 10/9/09, Martin Goldberg wrote: From: Martin Goldberg Subject: Re: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Thursday, 10 September, 2009, 10:35 PM I see nothing so far though that states they're taking anything as far back as the Intellivision, other than surmising by Joystiq.? Even the poster that was included in an earlier article mentions about ESRB ratings and disc quality leads one to believe it's talking about PS1 era on up: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/03/02/toys-r-us-testing-the-waters-of-the-used-games-business/ On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Hi, > > Now I'm not suggesting that anyone here wants to give up their game > collections, but I'm just curious as to what peoples opinions are about Toys > R Us's decision. Are retro games really worth that much, or are they just > after the scrap metal and boards??? > > "Toys R Us is rolling out its video game trade-in program nationwide today, > allowing customers to sell games from as far back as the (OMG!) > Intellivision. > Those who use the program will receive gift cards for the value of > their trade-in, which can be used for any product at Toys R Us, Babies > R Us or online at Toysrus.com." > > > http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/10/toys-r-us-rolls-out-national-game-trade-in-program-classic-game/ > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Sep 11 12:33:34 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:33:34 -0400 Subject: Front panel switches (WAS: You just can't buy these anymore) Message-ID: <01CA32EC.1924E740@MSE_D03> ------------------Original: Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 12:12:06 -0700 From: Eric Smith Subject: Re: Front panel switches (WAS: You just can't buy these anymore) M H Stein wrote: > In my days with Burroughs systems, the operator consoles that had > "front panels" and many of their maintenance panels used illuminated > momentary push buttons that toggled on/off; that always struck me > as more intuitive (not to mention faster to set up) than separate lights > and switches. > The DEC KI10 (PDP-10 processor ca. 1973) did that also, as did the Fabritek BI-TRAN SIX. It is NOT faster for data entry, because you effectively have to manually XOR each entry with the previous one. It might be OK if there were a clear button (as there is on the BI-TRAN SIX), or if the entry word cleared itself after deposit, though the latter would be bad when you actually want to enter consecutive identical non-zero words. Toggles (with suitable handles) are much easier for binary entry, because you can push them up or down without regard to their previous state. With practice you can easily enter octal data three bits at a time using three fingers. --------------Reply: Good point, but as expressed elsewhere I suppose it depends on personal preference, what you're actually doing, and what you learned first. I can see that for data entry toggles could be faster, but my experience was mostly examine/deposit etc.; never had the exhilarating experience of actually "typing in" a program that way, alas. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 11 15:00:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (cclist at sydex.com) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:00:59 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ Message-ID: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> Just passing this one on; if you need to contact the owner, his email is: Resnickshardware [[at]] gmail.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have an old Burroughs B80 in a building I own. It seems to have all the parts, there is a printer and some floppys. I am interested in selling it to a collector perhaps, or a museum. Any idea what it's worth? Or other ideas where I could sell or get rid of it? I'm located in NJ. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Sep 11 23:06:59 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 21:06:59 -0700 Subject: Looking for RLV12 (Q-Bus RL02 controller) Message-ID: <4AAB1E63.30207@mail.msu.edu> Anyone have one going spare to part with? Finally got a bootable RL02 pack for my 11/40 (thanks again, Dave!) and it's a no-go -- the drive is reading _something_ at bootstrap, but what ends up in memory looks like garbage. Unsure if it's a drive, controller, or CPU problem at this point. Looks like I'm going to have to start doing some debugging on the drive, and I'd rather do it from a system that I can more easily boot diagnostics from like my 11/73. (Plus it'd be nice to have another means to read/write RL02 packs, since my 11/73 has ethernet & scsi...) Thanks as always, Josh From wgungfu at gmail.com Sat Sep 12 02:45:41 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 01:45:41 -0600 Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <575712.18473.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <2c768b1e0909101435i171032ci59fad459b7f53054@mail.gmail.com> <575712.18473.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0909120045l538ff194o2b604556b910197@mail.gmail.com> Thanks. 50 cents a 2600 game? I could see that for a common, but that's way below market value for others. Marty On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > On this page: > > http://www.toysrustradeincenter.com/vintage.aspx?searchstring=generic > > > you will see that they take Atari 2600 games ($0.50 per generic game). > Admittedly, all other games are for Sega, Nintendo, Microsoft or Sony > consoles. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > --- On Thu, 10/9/09, Martin Goldberg wrote: > > From: Martin Goldberg > Subject: Re: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Thursday, 10 September, 2009, 10:35 PM > > I see nothing so far though that states they're taking anything as far back > as the Intellivision, other than surmising by Joystiq. Even the poster > that > was included in an earlier article mentions about ESRB ratings and disc > quality leads one to believe it's talking about PS1 era on up: > > > http://www.joystiq.com/2009/03/02/toys-r-us-testing-the-waters-of-the-used-games-business/ > > > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Burton > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > Now I'm not suggesting that anyone here wants to give up their game > > collections, but I'm just curious as to what peoples opinions are about > Toys > > R Us's decision. Are retro games really worth that much, or are they just > > after the scrap metal and boards??? > > > > "Toys R Us is rolling out its video game trade-in program nationwide > today, > > allowing customers to sell games from as far back as the (OMG!) > > Intellivision. > > Those who use the program will receive gift cards for the value of > > their trade-in, which can be used for any product at Toys R Us, Babies > > R Us or online at Toysrus.com." > > > > > > > http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/10/toys-r-us-rolls-out-national-game-trade-in-program-classic-game/ > > > > > > Regards, > > Andrew B > > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > > > > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Sep 12 17:03:18 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 18:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Sep 2009, Richard Main wrote: > Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes available? I have a Series II > MDS-225. I'm trying to help Richard out with copies of my ISIS-II diskettes. The SD diskettes read just fine using imagedisk, but the DD ones use M2FM (aka MMFM) encoding and are not recognized. In researching this on the net, I'm seeing conflicting claims as to whether the Catweasel controller will make sense of this format. Does anyone know from personal experience that it will? If so, what software tools were required? TIA, Steve -- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 13 01:30:22 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 00:30:22 -0600 Subject: Toys R Us game trade-in program (including classic games) In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e0909120045l538ff194o2b604556b910197@mail.gmail.com> References: <2c768b1e0909101435i171032ci59fad459b7f53054@mail.gmail.com> <575712.18473.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <2c768b1e0909120045l538ff194o2b604556b910197@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AAC917E.5090803@jetnet.ab.ca> Sounds like flea market prices. I figure it is just a way to get you into the store to buy something else. Ben. PS. How many of you had access to the "The book of knowledge".? The subject 'Things to make and do', comes to mind, and I suspect children for the most part today, just think of buy buy buy. I buy buy buy, but that's for a hobbie, not for the latest hype. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 13 08:23:54 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 06:23:54 -0700 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> Message-ID: > From: snhirsch at gmail.com > On Thu, 10 Sep 2009, Richard Main wrote: > >> Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes available? I have a Series II >> MDS-225. > > I'm trying to help Richard out with copies of my ISIS-II diskettes. The > SD diskettes read just fine using imagedisk, but the DD ones use M2FM > (aka MMFM) encoding and are not recognized. > > In researching this on the net, I'm seeing conflicting claims as to > whether the Catweasel controller will make sense of this format. Does > anyone know from personal experience that it will? If so, what software > tools were required? > > TIA, > > Steve > Hi Steve Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure how it would be written back though. It can't be created with any of todays controllers. I'll keep an eye out for the clock/data spec but it may take me some time to find it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222986/direct/01/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 13 08:35:19 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:35:19 +0100 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> Message-ID: <4AACF517.4000706@philpem.me.uk> (Re-sending -- this time, with the *correct* From: address) dwight elvey wrote: > Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec > on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure > how it would be written back though. It can't be created > with any of todays controllers. I'd be interested in a copy of the disc format spec too -- if no current disc writer can write them, it seems like something that might be useful to add to my analyser/reader/writer. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 13 11:56:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (cclist at sydex.com) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 09:56:33 -0700 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com>, , Message-ID: <4AACC1D1.1341.58197D5@cclist.sydex.com> M2FM recording is pretty easy--the rules are less complicated than MFM; I suspect the reason that it isn't used today is that it's inherently less reliable. For a decent description of it, see page 5 of the Shugard SA800/801 theory of operation manual on Bitsavers. Intel used it on their MDS; I think HP used it for a short time as did Lanier for their WP gear. Other than that, it's pretty uncommon. The only monolithic floppy controller that I know of that supported it was the 8X330 chip for the Signetics 8X300 bipolar microcontroller. --Chuck From dmabry at mich.com Sun Sep 13 12:15:22 2009 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 13:15:22 -0400 Subject: Tell me a little about your MDS please In-Reply-To: <003d01ca348b$3fa8b540$befa1fc0$@com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> <4AACDC92.70003@mich.com> <003d01ca348b$3fa8b540$befa1fc0$@com> Message-ID: <4AAD28AA.2050704@mich.com> Hi Richard, Looks like you got a nice computer from that auction. There are a few different possible configurations when it comes to floppy disk drives. I probably will be telling you things you already know, since you used these systems in the past. Strictly speaking, if you have a 225, that implies an 8085-based cpu board with 64k bytes of RAM on that board. It also implies that the boot drive is the internal drive being controlled by the IOC (Input/output controller) back panel board. That board has imbedded on it a single-density controller. To use that configuration there would be a 50-pin wide ribbon cable from the IOC to the Shugart SA801 drive. In this standard configuration the internal drive is single-density single-sided. There was an option Intel sold that upgraded the internal 801 drive to work in a double-density mode. That included a two-board multibus set that could control up to four drives. Normally that two-board set controlled up to two external two-drive packages. So up to four double-density single-sided drives total. They also sold a special cable that allowed that internal two-board-set to control the one internal drive. That cable went from the interface board of the two-board set to two connectors. One connector is the 50-pin edge to the 801 drive directly. The other connector is a 37-pin D-type connector that attaches to the back panel of the MDS and is for controlling a two-drive external box. There are other permutations, but that is the most common way to get the internal drive to be double-density. It sounds, from your e-mail, that you may have that optional configuration. So I have a question. What is set up in your system to control the internal drive? The difference is whether it is single-density or double-density. I'm going to cc this to the classic computer list as it may be interesting to some others there. I should be able to help you with software, but whether you need single-density or double-density is significant. Dave Richard Main said the following on 9/13/2009 11:59 AM: > Dave, > > I was an engineer for Ford Aerospace in 1976 and I got my department to buy > an Intel Series II MDS-225 with an MDS-DDS and UPP-101. I used it to > develop code for Intel SBC-80/20 boards we used in some satellite downlink > equipment. I got pretty good with ASM-80/85 and even microFORTH. I bought > serial #6 from FORTH, Inc. > > Last week one came up on eBay and I was the high bidder at $235.50 (item > 200377495743). When it arrived, I opened the covers and found a few cables > unplugged on the I/O board and a switch in the wrong position. Fixing that, > the unit signed on with the monitor. Seems to be completely functional. It > is equipped with one built in SA801 DD disk drive, a two board disk > controller, and a three board plus pod ICE-86A. > > I contacted you because I have zero software. At a minimum, I need the > ISIS-II OS. Be nice to get the ASM-80/85, ICE-86, and UPP software. A copy > of microFORTH for the MDS would be especially cool. > > Best regards, > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Mabry [mailto:dmabry at mich.com] > Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 4:51 AM > To: mainpatents at gmail.com > Subject: Re: Intellec MDS questions > > Hello Richard, > > I have most of what was ever available for the Intel MDS computers. > What is it that you would like? > > Tell me a little about your MDS please. I'm always interested in those > beasts. > > Thanks, > Dave > > Richard Main said the following on 9/10/2009 2:23 PM: > >> Dave, >> >> >> >> Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes available? I have a Series II >> MDS-225. >> >> >> >> Richard Brewster Main, Esq. >> >> Patent Attorney >> >> 9832 Lois Stiltner Ct. >> >> Elk Grove, CA 95624 >> >> >> >> mainpatents at gmail.com >> >> http://mainpatents.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> cell: 650-575-4624 >> >> FAX: 650-641-3126 >> >> >> >> home: 916-494-2571 >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From fsweetjr2002 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 13 05:32:34 2009 From: fsweetjr2002 at yahoo.com (Frank Sweet, Jr.) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 03:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home! Message-ID: <527026.60823.qm@web81704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Sir/Madam: ? I saw a ad stating "IBM System/36 needs a home" and I had a question about the IBM System/36 5364 model. If you have a IBM System/36 5364 I will be interest in getting it from you. Please let me know at this email address (fsweetjr2002 at yahoo.com). ? ? Thank You, ? ? Frank Sweet fsweetjr2002 at yahoo.com ? ? From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 13 08:33:13 2009 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:33:13 +0100 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> Message-ID: <4AACF499.4060003@philpem.me.uk> dwight elvey wrote: > Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec > on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure > how it would be written back though. It can't be created > with any of todays controllers. I'd be interested in a copy of the disc format spec too -- if no current disc writer can write them, it seems like something that might be useful to add to my analyser/reader/writer. -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 13 18:30:57 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:30:57 -0700 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <4AACC1D1.1341.58197D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com>, , <4AACC1D1.1341.58197D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AAD80B1.3070108@bitsavers.org> cclist at sydex.com wrote: > M2FM recording is pretty easy--the rules are less complicated than MFM; I suspect the > reason that it isn't used today is that it's inherently less reliable. For a decent description of it, > see page 5 of the Shugard SA800/801 theory of operation manual on Bitsavers. > > Intel used it on their MDS; I think HP used it for a short time as did Lanier for their WP gear. > Other than that, it's pretty uncommon. The only monolithic floppy controller that I know of > that supported it was the 8X330 chip for the Signetics 8X300 bipolar microcontroller. > > --Chuck > > > Check the 9885 manual for HP's format description, and the DD MDS controller description under Intel. Getting something going to image M2FM disks would be a good thing. From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Sep 13 19:15:24 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 19:15:24 -0500 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <4AACF499.4060003@philpem.me.uk> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> <4AACF499.4060003@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909131715kdb79ba5sc52c82c54dddb24c@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: >> >> ?Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec >> on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure >> how it would be written back though. It can't be created >> with any of todays controllers. > > I'd be interested in a copy of the disc format spec too -- if no current > disc writer can write them, it seems like something that might be useful to > add to my analyser/reader/writer. I have a catweasel board. I'd be happy to try out any software you can find. I think there's source code out there for linux that can write images through the catweasel, but I haven't had time to play with it yet. The windows software that comes with the board is rudimentary and only supports a few 8-bit formats. I've talked with Jens, the guy who designed the board. He's handed software work off to someone else and development appears to have stopped. He's also wrapped up in other projects and doesn't seem to interested. brian From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 14 01:43:42 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 02:43:42 -0400 Subject: Quick VCF East 6.0 summary Message-ID: <4AADE61E.5010406@snarc.net> Got home very late, and now very tired!!! VCF East 6.0 this weekend was, by far, the largest and most successful of all the east-coast editions. We out-did ourselves for the number of exhibitors (23), number of attendees, amount of income for our club and museum, all sorts of good press attention (ars technica, AOL, etc.), very busy computer consignment and book sale, and special events (8-bit concert, guided museum tours, etc.) We also took lots of video and photos, hopefully to be posted soon. Best-of-show winner: Mike Lee (Chicago); exhibit: "Fail" (computers that were duds) Best rookie VCF East exhibitor: Robert Bernardo (Visalia, Calif.); exhibit: Guitar Hero on a C-64 I'm off to hibernate for a while. :) - Evan From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Sep 14 07:17:34 2009 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 07:17:34 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 5.0, the pre-quel Message-ID: <7A7D21CF81E24CEEAC3D6FC6AFDA6522@obie> I'm hosting an open house for the Chicago Classic Computer group at my home on Saturday, September 19. One of the agenda items will be the kickoff for VCF 5.0, to be held in Chicago in 2010. If you are in the area, please feel free to join us on Saturday. RSVP directly to me (offlist) for time and directions. More importantly, if you'd like to work with us to make VCF Chicago a reality, please respond and let's get this thing started! best, Jack jack DOT rubin AT ameritech DOT net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 14 12:51:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:51:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9885 (was Itnel MDS Questions) In-Reply-To: <4AAD80B1.3070108@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Sep 13, 9 04:30:57 pm Message-ID: > Check the 9885 manual for HP's format description, and the DD MDS > controller description under Intel. As an aside, does anyone happen to have any information on the host interface to the 9885 disk unit? OK, it's a 16 bit parallel data bus (commands sent there too) with some control lines -- it was designed to link to a 98032 interface and the spec of that is well-known. But does anyone have any ideas as to the command set, etc. I think you can deduce a little from the published source code in one of the HP9000/200 Pascal technical manuals (on Bitsavers), but I'd rather not battle through almost uncommented 68K assembler if I don't have to :-) -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Sep 14 20:33:52 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE Summagraphics MM1201 autocad tablet Message-ID: <644275.2031.qm@web110602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Yours if you want it. Pick-up or pay shipping from 92656. Summagraphics MM1201 RS-232 graphics table. Includes 'mouse', cables, power supply. Operational status - unknown. http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/tablet-1.jpg http://members.cox.net/stengel/temp/tablet-2.jpg From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Sep 15 09:13:40 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:13:40 +0200 Subject: Zilog System 8000 Message-ID: <20090915161340.292588aa.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, its me and my S8000 again ;) One year ago I managed to get my hands on a S8000 which was in a kinda bad shape. I made the repairs I was able to do (fixed all 3 PSUs, build a complete new frontpanel, fixed cut wires). But I'm still looking for parts which are missing in that sytem: - harddisk - a harddisk with a SA1000 interface as well as a so called "FINCH adapter board" used by Zilog to attach this harddisk to the WDC controler. It was probably called "FINCH" because the shipped SA1000 harddisk was probably a CDC 9410 Finch, 8", 32MB harddisk. Some websites lists the 9410 drive as a SMD drive so I'm not sure about this. - a harddisk with a SMD interface - but then I would also need the SMD interface adaptor for the S8000 - there was also a "mini-WDC" adapter which implemented a ST506 interface for this I would have harddisks... This was used only in later S8000 Plus models. - tape drive - the original one was probably a DEI drive. It should have been a QIC-02/36 type with four tracks and a fixed head (not like the 60MB drives). - tape cartridges - still looking for the diagnostic and the OS cartridges.... - any other hardware ;) - Paxton Hoag responded 2008 on the list that he saved a whole set of S8000 boards when the original machine went to scrap - but unfortunally he never responded back lately :( If someone is interested in pics of my S8000 - they can be found here: http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000 -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Sep 15 10:33:31 2009 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 10:33:31 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 5.0, the pre-quel In-Reply-To: <7A7D21CF81E24CEEAC3D6FC6AFDA6522@obie> References: <7A7D21CF81E24CEEAC3D6FC6AFDA6522@obie> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033AA982@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I am busy on Saturday but I am very interested in VCF 5.0 in Chicago! -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 7:18 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: VCF Midwest 5.0, the pre-quel I'm hosting an open house for the Chicago Classic Computer group at my home on Saturday, September 19. One of the agenda items will be the kickoff for VCF 5.0, to be held in Chicago in 2010. If you are in the area, please feel free to join us on Saturday. RSVP directly to me (offlist) for time and directions. More importantly, if you'd like to work with us to make VCF Chicago a reality, please respond and let's get this thing started! best, Jack jack DOT rubin AT ameritech DOT net From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 15 10:35:56 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 08:35:56 -0700 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20090915161340.292588aa.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090915161340.292588aa.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: Hi I had a similar problem for my Olivetti M20 ( Z8000 based ). I think it was Tony that pointed out that the TRS80 5Meg hard disk drive contained an almost identical controller to the SA1000. For the interface card, I wired up my own on a wire wrap board. I removed the original drive and put in a ST251 that has a similar sector/head to what I needed for the M20. I did have to make minor modifications to the software to use the auto stepping timing rather than the 10ms steps that the original Olivetti drive expected. Other than that it worked fine. How is the memory mapped in the S8000? The Olivetti has one 64K map that Data and the instruction map to two different physical memory locations. This seems to be required for the implementation of CPM-8000 that I have running on the M20. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:13:40 +0200 > From: lehmann at ans-netz.de > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Zilog System 8000 > > Hi, > > its me and my S8000 again ;) > > One year ago I managed to get my hands on a S8000 which was in a kinda > bad shape. I made the repairs I was able to do (fixed all 3 PSUs, build a > complete new frontpanel, fixed cut wires). But I'm still looking for > parts which are missing in that sytem: > > - harddisk > - a harddisk with a SA1000 interface as well as a so called "FINCH > adapter board" used by Zilog to attach this harddisk to the WDC > controler. It was probably called "FINCH" because the shipped SA1000 > harddisk was probably a CDC 9410 Finch, 8", 32MB harddisk. Some > websites lists the 9410 drive as a SMD drive so I'm not sure about > this. > - a harddisk with a SMD interface - but then I would also need the SMD > interface adaptor for the S8000 > - there was also a "mini-WDC" adapter which implemented a ST506 interface > for this I would have harddisks... This was used only in later S8000 > Plus models. > > - tape drive > - the original one was probably a DEI drive. It should have been a > QIC-02/36 type with four tracks and a fixed head (not like the 60MB > drives). > > - tape cartridges > - still looking for the diagnostic and the OS cartridges.... > > - any other hardware ;) > - Paxton Hoag responded 2008 on the list that he saved a whole set of > S8000 boards when the original machine went to scrap - but > unfortunally he never responded back lately :( > > If someone is interested in pics of my S8000 - they can be found here: > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000 > > -- > Oliver Lehmann > http://www.pofo.de/ > http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you health info from trusted sources. http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1 From lehmann at ans-netz.de Tue Sep 15 11:46:29 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:46:29 +0200 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <20090915161340.292588aa.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20090915184629.bb820a7a.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, dwight elvey wrote: > I removed the original drive and put in a ST251 that has a similar > sector/head to what I needed for the M20. That might work here as well but I probably would still need some kind of adapter board because even the SA1000 harddisk is not attached directly to the controller but to a so called "FINCH adapter board" which itself is connected to the controller. Unfortunally I have no idea how that adapter board looks like nor do I have the schematics. > How is the memory mapped in the S8000? The Olivetti has one 64K map > that Data and the instruction map to two different physical > memory locations. This seems to be required for the implementation > of CPM-8000 that I have running on the M20. The system comes with 1MB DRAM and it uses 3 MMUs. all three are used in the non-segmented operation mode of the Z8001 as code, data and stack MMU (one 64K segment only). In the segmented operation mode, two MMUs are used to access 128 possible memory segments of 64K. -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Sep 15 14:40:35 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 12:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ Message-ID: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Found this site, lots of vintage computers for sale, as well as everything else. I talked to the guy on the phone, sounds good, but I haven't bought anything. I have no connection with owner or site in any way. Located in New jersey. http://earth.prohosting.com/vinstuff/ Examples: Northstar Advantage Apple II plus (listed as Apple II) TI, Tandy, Radio Shack, Comnmodore, EAI TR10 Analog Computer (!) Lear Siegler Model 33, 35 TTY He's an old guy, good prices, shipping may cost extra. http://earth.prohosting.com/vinstuff/ From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Sep 15 15:07:01 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:07:01 -0400 Subject: Atari and Commodore stuff In-Reply-To: <6C6FA30D-F47B-4D8E-90FB-32DB65C9E5D3@xlisper.com> References: <6C6FA30D-F47B-4D8E-90FB-32DB65C9E5D3@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <5CCDAB1C-C2F8-4211-925B-DF6D63CA3D66@xlisper.com> Thanks to everyone who responded to my offer for the Atari and Commodore stuff. Unfortunately, no one was willing to pick it up locally so I ended up bringing it with me to VCF East where I offered it for free on their consignment table. Interestingly, in spite of the fact that it was marked as free, one person paid $10 for one item and that went to MARCH, the sponsors of VCF East as a donation. From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 15 15:17:23 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:17:23 -0400 Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ In-Reply-To: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> Hi all -- The man behind that page is 79 and has a fascinating history in the computer industry here in New Jersey. Apparently he is aware of our local computer museum (only a 20-minute drive from his home), but never followed through. I called him just now, and spoke with him and his daughter. He wasn't aware that anyone my age (34) still cares about all this, let alone a whole group of people in our club/museum. So, I respectfully ask that classiccmp'ers give us some time to keep his collection local. > Found this site, lots of vintage computers for sale, as well as everything else. > > I talked to the guy on the phone, sounds good, but I haven't bought anything. I have no connection with owner or site in any way. > > Located in New jersey. > > http://earth.prohosting.com/vinstuff/ > > Examples: > > Northstar Advantage > Apple II plus (listed as Apple II) > TI, Tandy, Radio Shack, Comnmodore, > EAI TR10 Analog Computer (!) > Lear Siegler > Model 33, 35 TTY > > He's an old guy, good prices, shipping may cost extra. > > http://earth.prohosting.com/vinstuff/ > > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 15 15:13:17 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:13:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 15, 9 08:35:56 am Message-ID: > I had a similar problem for my Olivetti M20 ( Z8000 based ). > I think it was Tony that pointed out that the TRS80 5Meg hard > disk drive contained an almost identical controller to the SA1000. > For the interface card=2C I wired up my own on a wire wrap board. Err, aren't you confusing the WD1000 series controllers (which were used in the TRS-80 drive boxes) with the SA1000 8" winchester drive, which has a 'raw' interface, IIRC on a single 50 pin connector? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 15 15:19:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:19:47 -0400 Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ In-Reply-To: <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> References: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sep 15, 2009, at 4:17 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > The man behind that page is 79 and has a fascinating history in the > computer industry here in New Jersey. Apparently he is aware of > our local computer museum (only a 20-minute drive from his home), > but never followed through. I called him just now, and spoke with > him and his daughter. He wasn't aware that anyone my age (34) > still cares about all this, let alone a whole group of people in > our club/museum. So, I respectfully ask that classiccmp'ers give > us some time to keep his collection local. Wow, he really wasn't aware that people care about it? I hope you explained to him that it's quite a big hobby nowadays. I know more people who collect vintage computers than I do cars. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 15 15:27:46 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:27:46 -0400 Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ In-Reply-To: References: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4AAFF8C2.1020209@snarc.net> > >> The man behind that page is 79 and has a fascinating history in the >> computer industry here in New Jersey. Apparently he is aware of our >> local computer museum (only a 20-minute drive from his home), but >> never followed through. I called him just now, and spoke with him >> and his daughter. He wasn't aware that anyone my age (34) still >> cares about all this, let alone a whole group of people in our >> club/museum. So, I respectfully ask that classiccmp'ers give us some >> time to keep his collection local. > > Wow, he really wasn't aware that people care about it? I hope you > explained to him that it's quite a big hobby nowadays. I know more > people who collect vintage computers than I do cars. > > -Dave He said a lot of his other electronics and more modern computers sold, but he thought nobody much cared about his DEC tape drives, Northstar, EAI TR-10, 3DMa, etc. ..... I explained to him that as far as we're concerned, that is the GOOD stuff. But it's even more important to save record his personal history. Maybe the cctalk'ers in northern California are used to this, but here in NJ we cherish people with such rich history when we can find them. :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 15:40:01 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:40:01 -0400 Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ In-Reply-To: <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> References: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> Message-ID: > ?So, I respectfully ask that > classiccmp'ers give us some time to keep his collection local. The guy needs the dough...I say let the CC community in and give it to him. For the midwest and west coast crowd, I may be available for pickup/pack/ship, as I am working near Piscataway lately. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 15 17:46:12 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:46:12 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] Robert C. Peckham -- RIP Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 13:22:44 -0700 Groups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11 From: Alan Frisbie Subject: Robert C. Peckham -- RIP Id: ======== It is my sad duty to report the passing of long-time RT-11 and PDP-11 fan, and my friend, Robert C. Peckham. Bob was one of the driving forces behind the last release (v5.7 -- Y2K-compliant) of RT-11. He continued to use it long after most other people had moved on to other platforms. Bob died peacefully in his sleep at home on September 9, 2009. He had suffered from a variety of ailments over the years, and they gradually forced him to give up the work and activities he loved so much. His friends and family hope that he finds a racetrack and fast cars in heaven so he can once again enjoy the sport he excelled at. Of immediate concern to the family is what to do with Bob's collection of PDP-11 systems and supplies. An inventory has not yet been made, but they want it to go to "a good home", someone who would appreciate it. Besides the PDP-11 equipment, there are also several Wright Line media cabinets, DEC manuals, handbooks, and related supplies. There is at least one 9-track tape drive, one or two Diablo 630 printers, and an LA120 DECwriter. Everything is located in Glendale, California. Because Bob left his family with a mountain of debts, they cannot afford to ship anything and would appreciate at least a nominal payment for some of the items. I will post an inventory to these groups in the next few weeks as we dig our way through the collection. Feel free to contact me at the above address (after removing "_REMOVE") if there is anything in particular you would like me to keep my eyes open for. Sincerely, Alan E. Frisbie -- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. 323-256-2575 -- 4759 Round Top Drive -- Los Angeles, CA 90065 From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 17:48:22 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 00:48:22 +0200 Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ In-Reply-To: References: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> Message-ID: Item# QTY Description / Comments Category 840 *** DEC Back Planes (70 lbs.) SCRAP 841 *** DEC Back Planes (80 lbs.) SCRAP If anyone has a working pdp11/44 backplane for me, drop me a short mail ;-) St?phane http://www.conservatique.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 19:02:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:02:49 -0400 Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ In-Reply-To: References: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 6:48 PM, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > Item# QTY Description / Comments ? ? ?Category > 840 ? ?*** ? DEC Back Planes (70 lbs.) ?SCRAP > 841 ? ?*** ? DEC Back Planes (80 lbs.) ?SCRAP > If anyone has a working pdp11/44 backplane for me, drop me a short mail ;-) If anyone picks these up and there are any pre-1970s backplanes, there are a couple of items I'm hunting for but never thought I'd find. My expectation, though, is that this is 150 lbs of DD11DKs and CKs and PKs from the 1980s. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 15 19:46:00 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 17:46:00 -0700 Subject: M2FM floppy disk formats (was Re: Intellec MDS questions) In-Reply-To: <4AACC1D1.1341.58197D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com>, , <4AACC1D1.1341.58197D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AB03548.1070505@brouhaha.com> cclist at sydex.com wrote: > M2FM recording is pretty easy--the rules are less complicated than MFM; I suspect the > reason that it isn't used today is that it's inherently less reliable. For a decent description of it, > see page 5 of the Shugard SA800/801 theory of operation manual on Bitsavers. > The issue is that while M2FM channel encoding is simple enough, there isn't a *standard* for a floppy disk M2FM track format. Intel M2FM floppy format is different from Texas Instruments TMS9909 M2FM floppy format, etc. The marks, PLO sync fields, etc. are different. Also, some of the systems that use M2FM actually use a *modified* M2FM channel encoding, which arguably should be called M3FM but isn't. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 15 19:49:03 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 17:49:03 -0700 Subject: Tell me a little about your MDS please In-Reply-To: <4AAD28AA.2050704@mich.com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> <4AACDC92.70003@mich.com> <003d01ca348b$3fa8b540$befa1fc0$@com> <4AAD28AA.2050704@mich.com> Message-ID: <4AB035FF.2020303@brouhaha.com> Dave Mabry wrote: > There was an option Intel sold that upgraded the internal 801 drive to > work in a double-density mode. That included a two-board multibus set > that could control up to four drives. Normally that two-board set > controlled up to two external two-drive packages. So up to four > double-density single-sided drives total. They also sold a special > cable that allowed that internal two-board-set to control the one > internal drive. That cable went from the interface board of the > two-board set to two connectors. One connector is the 50-pin edge to > the 801 drive directly. The other connector is a 37-pin D-type > connector that attaches to the back panel of the MDS and is for > controlling a two-drive external box. There are other permutations, > but that is the most common way to get the internal drive to be > double-density. Most MDS systems I used or saw back when they were current only used double-density on the external drives and not the internal, because the double-density controller would NOT read or write single-density disks, and most people still needed or wanted that capability. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 15 20:01:19 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:01:19 -0700 Subject: M2FM floppy disk formats (was Re: Intellec MDS questions) In-Reply-To: <4AB03548.1070505@brouhaha.com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com>, <4AACC1D1.1341.58197D5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AB03548.1070505@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4AAFD66F.18887.55488DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Sep 2009 at 17:46, Eric Smith wrote: > The issue is that while M2FM channel encoding is simple enough, there > isn't a *standard* for a floppy disk M2FM track format. Intel M2FM > floppy format is different from Texas Instruments TMS9909 M2FM floppy > format, etc. The marks, PLO sync fields, etc. are different. Also, > some of the systems that use M2FM actually use a *modified* M2FM > channel encoding, which arguably should be called M3FM but isn't. No argument, but armed with the general principles of M2FM, one should be able to suss out what the address marks, etc. are. I've certainly that with much less to go on. (As in, "here's a diskette, we don't know where it came from--and it isn't FM or MFM. Can you convert it?"). --Chuck From dmabry at mich.com Tue Sep 15 20:02:14 2009 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:02:14 -0400 Subject: Tell me a little about your MDS please In-Reply-To: <4AB035FF.2020303@brouhaha.com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> <4AACDC92.70003@mich.com> <003d01ca348b$3fa8b540$befa1fc0$@com> <4AAD28AA.2050704@mich.com> <4AB035FF.2020303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4AB03916.2010500@mich.com> Eric Smith said the following on 9/15/2009 8:49 PM: > Dave Mabry wrote: >> There was an option Intel sold that upgraded the internal 801 drive >> to work in a double-density mode. That included a two-board multibus >> set that could control up to four drives. Normally that two-board >> set controlled up to two external two-drive packages. So up to four >> double-density single-sided drives total. They also sold a special >> cable that allowed that internal two-board-set to control the one >> internal drive. That cable went from the interface board of the >> two-board set to two connectors. One connector is the 50-pin edge to >> the 801 drive directly. The other connector is a 37-pin D-type >> connector that attaches to the back panel of the MDS and is for >> controlling a two-drive external box. There are other permutations, >> but that is the most common way to get the internal drive to be >> double-density. > Most MDS systems I used or saw back when they were current only used > double-density on the external drives and not the internal, because > the double-density controller would NOT read or write single-density > disks, and most people still needed or wanted that capability. > > Eric > That was certainly the most versatile configuration. It was an easy way to get single density. But, if all you were using was the Intel software/operating system then there really was no reason to have single density. The internal drive was agonizingly slow in single density when being controlled from the IOC. If, on the other hand, you were using CP/M then there was a definite advantage to being able to write single density for interchange with other systems since it was the only real standard format. I used Intel Development Systems a lot and the only reason I had to use CP/M in the professional world was to create documentation in Wordstar. For programming my entire company used the Intel tools with ISIS-II. Today I have several working MDS configurations, some with the internal drive converted to double density, some not. I have never had anyone want me to copy them ISIS-II or Intel s/w on single density. However, I haven't used double density at all for copies of CP/M software. Dave From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 15 20:03:23 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:03:23 -0700 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 15, 9 08:35:56 am Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: Zilog System 8000 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:13:17 +0100 > >> I had a similar problem for my Olivetti M20 ( Z8000 based ). >> I think it was Tony that pointed out that the TRS80 5Meg hard >> disk drive contained an almost identical controller to the SA1000. >> For the interface card=2C I wired up my own on a wire wrap board. > > Err, aren't you confusing the WD1000 series controllers (which were used > in the TRS-80 drive boxes) with the SA1000 8" winchester drive, which has > a 'raw' interface, IIRC on a single 50 pin connector? > > -tony Hi TOny You are correct. The way it read to me was that it was a WD1000 type controller, not that it was actually a SA1000 disk because he specified a specific disk type. Maybe the OP can be more specific. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Ready for Fall shows? Use Bing to find helpful ratings and reviews on digital tv's. http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=digital+tv's&form=MSHNCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHNCB_Vertical_Shopping_DigitalTVs_1x1 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 15 20:31:01 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:31:01 -0700 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20090915184629.bb820a7a.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090915161340.292588aa.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20090915184629.bb820a7a.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: lehmann at ans-netz.de > > Hi, > > dwight elvey wrote: > >> I removed the original drive and put in a ST251 that has a similar >> sector/head to what I needed for the M20. > > That might work here as well but I probably would still need some kind of > adapter board because even the SA1000 harddisk is not attached directly > to the controller but to a so called "FINCH adapter board" which itself > is connected to the controller. Unfortunally I have no idea how that > adapter board looks like nor do I have the schematics. > > >> How is the memory mapped in the S8000? The Olivetti has one 64K map >> that Data and the instruction map to two different physical >> memory locations. This seems to be required for the implementation >> of CPM-8000 that I have running on the M20. > > The system comes with 1MB DRAM and it uses 3 MMUs. all three are used in > the non-segmented operation mode of the Z8001 as code, data and stack > MMU (one 64K segment only). In the segmented operation mode, two MMUs are > used to access 128 possible memory segments of 64K. > Hi I think that should work. As I recall, the BIOS operations all switched to the non-segmented mode in specific segements as required. When actually running CP/M-8000, it was running in the segemented mode ( as I recall ). An application might run in either mode. To load instructions, it mapped both instruction and data into the same physical space and then switched to another segement of the processor to run the 128K mapped space. The assembler that came with the M20 always assumed you were in the segemented mode and didn't even have the option of non-segemented. The assembler in CP/M-8000 allowed both modes so I'm not sure how it was expected to be managed. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/ From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 20:33:10 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:33:10 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? Message-ID: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> I picked up an A500 recently. All I have for a display is the mono composite out. Can I make an adapter for the RGB out to either VGA or component? If not, where can I get an appropriate monitor? Thanks Joe From hachti at hachti.de Tue Sep 15 21:26:29 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 04:26:29 +0200 Subject: Cardreader "DEC CR10" Message-ID: <4AB04CD5.7040402@hachti.de> Hey folks, somewhere out there is sitting a unit called CR10. It's huge and I want to save it from scrap. Does anyone know if there's a difference between a CR10 and CR11? I have a CR11 Unibus interface... Perhaps I could make them working together? Is anyone desperately looking for such a thing? In that case.... Located in northern Germany. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 21:38:35 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:38:35 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > I picked up an A500 recently. All I have for a display is the mono composite > out. Can I make an adapter for the RGB out to either VGA or component? If > not, where can I get an appropriate monitor? Yes and no. The short answer is that there are amiga-to-vga adapters for cheap on ebay. Or with a little googling, you can make your own. They really just rearrange the wires. the problem is that the bottom end of the horizontal scan frequency range for most vga monitors is around 30hz. But amigas need 15hz (to line up with pal or ntsc tv signals). There's a number of things you can do. You could find a monitor that's will sync that low. Very few did, but they're out there. I believe the NEC multisync 3D did it for example. If you find a secret cache of vga monitors that sync that low, please let me know. I'd like to buy a few. Iiyama made some iirc. I have a JVC 20" studio monitor bristling with connectors that can do the right stuff. You could buy an amiga monitor. They're generally good monitors and can also be hooked up to video sources through RCA adapters. They can be had on ebay, but shipping is a killer. Work great on c64s also. They make devices called scan doublers or flicker-fixers (same thing). They do what the name implies. They step the frequency up from 15 to 30 making them work with most vga monitors. There's an external model that was made after the amigas went out of production. It's ridiculously expensive. Expect to pay several hundred dollars on ebay. If you had a 2000, you can use a flicker-fixer. Or you can find various high-end-for-their-day video boards that can do it also. Also into the hundreds of dollars. But you have a 500, so you're out of luck there because you lack a video slot. Doodads exist to give the 500 slots like a 2000, but they're harder to find than the 15hz monitors. Commodore made a device called the a520. The RCA connector on the back of the 500 is an rca video out, but it's black and white. The a520 made the same thing, but color. You could hook that up to a TV, but it's an rca video cable. Fairly cheap on ebay. If it were a 4000 or a 1200, you could go with the individual computers upgrade. Great solution. Wrong computer. Individual computers is about to release a board similar to the 1200/4000 model that plugs into the denise socket. It would install inside your machine and bring a real vga connector out of the case. Individual (jens) makes great stuff. Not sure when this is going to be out. I'd guess some time next year. It's designed for the 2000, so chances are it will work in a 500. Figure $150 to $180 for that. So I'd suggest just getting a 1084 or 1902? (not sure about the model number) monitor and use that for now, then keep looking for a bigger/better monitor. When Individual releases the other thingy, ditch the 1084 and use that with a flat panel LCD. If you have a TV that has both VGA and RCA inputs, we know it accepts VGA and syncs down to 15hz. The question is whether it will sync to 15hz from a vga connector. It's worth trying. Maybe a store would let you bring in your 500, power supply, and vga connector to try it out on a bunch of LCD TVs. brian From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 15 21:55:27 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 19:55:27 -0700 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 9:38 PM -0500 9/15/09, Brian Lanning wrote: >If it were a 4000 or a 1200, you could go with the individual >computers upgrade. Great solution. Wrong computer. The A3000 has a VGA out. Or if you're lucky you can find a video card that goes in the A2000, A3000, or A4000. For the A500, the best bet is to find a A520, but you might need to feed it through a VCR or something depending on the TV you want to hook it to. I know that is the case with your one TV and things like the TurboGrafix 16, or our SuperGun. I assume a A520 is still easy to find, I know they were 10 years ago. Personally in this day and age, I think the A500 is one of the best Amiga's to have, as it plays all the old games. For AGA games though you need a A1200 or A4000. Zane (who is hoping to revive my A500 and/or A3000 this winter) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 22:13:18 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:13:18 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > The A3000 has a VGA out. ?Or if you're lucky you can find a video card that > goes in the A2000, A3000, or A4000. I forgot about the vga adapter on the 3000. > For the A500, the best bet is to find a A520, but you might need to feed it > through a VCR or something depending on the TV you want to hook it to. ?I > know that is the case with your one TV and things like the TurboGrafix 16, > or our SuperGun. ?I assume a A520 is still easy to find, I know they were 10 > years ago. They show up on ebay all the time, but you might have to wait a couple weeks. > Personally in this day and age, I think the A500 is one of the best Amiga's > to have, as it plays all the old games. ?For AGA games though you need a > A1200 or A4000. The 2000 is supposed to be the same design as the 500, just with slots added. It plays the same games and has many more upgrade options. Still, the 500 was the one I had and I'd like to have one again. I have a 600, two 2000s, and parts of a 1200. I'd still like to get the 1200 working, and end up with a lot of upgrades for the 2000 and 1200. The upgrades are getting expensive these days though. Look at this: http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog/hardware/accelerators/gvp_tekmagic.html&cart_id=1138206_35761 I just can't bring myself to spend $500 on an amiga. Many fine woodworking machines can be had for that. Still, the 68060 boards are awesome. > Zane (who is hoping to revive my A500 and/or A3000 this winter) I'd like to have a 500 and 3000. Care to trade a working 2000 for both? :-D brian From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 15 22:20:26 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:20:26 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com><6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> I kind of wonder why people bother with 060's and PPC on Amigas, very little was made that can use it. From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 22:26:44 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:26:44 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909152026u2a055760i4da4d69ca95cafc8@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I kind of wonder why people bother with 060's and PPC on Amigas, very little > was made that can use it. There's definitely PPC software out there, but nowhere near as much as the 68k stuff. And the 68060 can theoretically run all of the software back to the 68000. I have a 68030 in my 2000 and it can still feel sluggish, especially at higher resolutions and color depths. It would be nice to hvae a 68060, but not $500 nice. lol brian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 15 22:33:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:33:21 -0400 Subject: Cardreader "DEC CR10" In-Reply-To: <4AB04CD5.7040402@hachti.de> References: <4AB04CD5.7040402@hachti.de> Message-ID: On Sep 15, 2009, at 10:26 PM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > somewhere out there is sitting a unit called CR10. It's huge and I > want to save it from scrap. > > Does anyone know if there's a difference between a CR10 and CR11? I > have a CR11 Unibus interface... Perhaps I could make them working > together? > > Is anyone desperately looking for such a thing? In that case.... > Located in northern Germany. Oh, *I* am desperately looking for such a thing. No way I could afford to ship from Germany though! *sob* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 15 22:33:08 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:33:08 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com><6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com><6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com><0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> <6dbe3c380909152026u2a055760i4da4d69ca95cafc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <83D9848520594457ACA2FC75429617B4@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Amiga video to component video or VGA? > On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I kind of wonder why people bother with 060's and PPC on Amigas, very >> little >> was made that can use it. > > There's definitely PPC software out there, but nowhere near as much as > the 68k stuff. And the 68060 can theoretically run all of the > software back to the 68000. I have a 68030 in my 2000 and it can > still feel sluggish, especially at higher resolutions and color > depths. It would be nice to hvae a 68060, but not $500 nice. lol > > brian I mostly game so my upgrades are all 68030's. I can understand people getting the rare upgrades just to get them, but the prices are a bit insane in my opinion for what you can run. The best thing for me would have been for Commodore to have lived long enough to sell PPC Amigas so I can get the classic 68k ones cheap after people moved on to newer ones. Shocking what I can get for 68K mac for little or nothing and how much it costs for something close on the Amiga (network cards anyone). From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 15 22:39:30 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:39:30 -0700 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:13 PM -0500 9/15/09, Brian Lanning wrote: >I forgot about the vga adapter on the 3000. That was why I went with an Amiga 3000 and an Atari TT030 in the late 90's. I'm hoping to revive both machines this winter, both spent way to many years in storage while we lived in an apartment. Now that we have a house they're at home with us, and I have some room to work on them. > The upgrades are getting expensive these days though. Look at this: > >http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog/hardware/accelerators/gvp_tekmagic.html&cart_id=1138206_35761 > >I just can't bring myself to spend $500 on an amiga. Many fine >woodworking machines can be had for that. Still, the 68060 boards are >awesome. I didn't realize Software Hut was still around. Guess I just had bad timing last time I tried to go to their website. That's not that bad of a price, I think they were slightly more 10 years ago. > > Zane (who is hoping to revive my A500 and/or A3000 this winter) > >I'd like to have a 500 and 3000. Care to trade a working 2000 for both? :-D I got rid of 3 A2000's a couple years ago to another list member. At the time I needed the space more than 3 A2000's. I still have 1.5 A500's, 1 A600, 2 A3000's, and 2 A1200's (I might be able to build 1 working from the two, but it need's surface mount work). The A3000 I got from someone who got it from Magni (I also have a pair of Magni Genlock's), and I fully upgraded it with the latest chips, full 16MB+2MB RAM, ethernet, a Picasso IV video card, and Amiga OS 3.9. I never could bring myself to spend the $$$'s on a CPU accelerator card. The 2nd A3000 is basically pristine in the boxes. Though I think the keyboard is in an A2000 box, not an A3000 box. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 15 22:43:29 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:43:29 -0700 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com><6dbe3c380909 151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> Message-ID: At 11:20 PM -0400 9/15/09, Teo Zenios wrote: >I kind of wonder why people bother with 060's and PPC on Amigas, >very little was made that can use it. The people that have those tend, or at least tended to only use the Amiga. While I wanted one, I'd have been happy with a 040 upgrade for my A3000. At the same time I was using the A3000 a lot, I was also using a P166 with OPENSTEP, and a PowerMac 8500/180. Didn't the 3D software used to do the graphics for Babylon 5 and other shows (name escapes me) make use of at least the 060 upgrades? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 22:43:37 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:43:37 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <83D9848520594457ACA2FC75429617B4@dell8300> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> <6dbe3c380909152026u2a055760i4da4d69ca95cafc8@mail.gmail.com> <83D9848520594457ACA2FC75429617B4@dell8300> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909152043m2ae9c258sd790ede975996594@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:33 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I mostly game so my upgrades are all 68030's. > > I can understand people getting the rare upgrades just to get them, but the > prices are a bit insane in my opinion for what you can run. The best thing > for me would have been for Commodore to have lived long enough to sell PPC > Amigas so I can get the classic 68k ones cheap after people moved on to > newer ones. Shocking what I can get for 68K mac for little or nothing and > how much it costs for something close on the Amiga (network cards anyone). I agree. The prices are stupid. I broke down and bought a buddha board for the 2000. It's expensive but gives a lot of functionality. It's a usb board for the amiga. It works with almost anything, keyboards, mice, thumb drives, flash card readers, cd/dvd/hard drives, network adapters... even usb sound cards. There's some crazy nuts out there still writing amiga drivers for this stuff. The real crazy prices are the people with the mediator boards and 68060 boards for their 1200. A 68060 amiga with pci slots transplanted into a tower case. You could buy a modern computer for those prices. But alas, it wouldn't be an amiga. brian From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 22:45:37 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:45:37 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909152026u2a055760i4da4d69ca95cafc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> <6dbe3c380909152026u2a055760i4da4d69ca95cafc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB05F61.3060707@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I kind of wonder why people bother with 060's and PPC on Amigas, very little >> was made that can use it. > > There's definitely PPC software out there, but nowhere near as much as > the 68k stuff. And the 68060 can theoretically run all of the > software back to the 68000. I have a 68030 in my 2000 and it can > still feel sluggish, especially at higher resolutions and color > depths. It would be nice to hvae a 68060, but not $500 nice. lol Isn't there a ColdFire upgrade out there too? I'd imagine that would be *really* fast. Peace... Sridhar From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 22:48:15 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:48:15 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909152048m57ca3e81jfdec44ede741b2bf@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:39 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > That was why I went with an Amiga 3000 and an Atari TT030 in the late 90's. > ?I'm hoping to revive both machines this winter, both spent way to many > years in storage while we lived in an apartment. ?Now that we have a house > they're at home with us, and I have some room to work on them. I'm the same. Too many hobbies, not enough time. These days, classic computing has taken a back seat to getting the wood shop done. Still need to finish the basement also. :-/ > I didn't realize Software Hut was still around. ?Guess I just had bad timing > last time I tried to go to their website. ?That's not that bad of a price, I > think they were slightly more 10 years ago. They're legendary for not updating their web page. Better to ignore what their page says and call them. I swear they update their website every other year whether they need to or not. The price is great considering it's a *new* board. It's still more than I can spend on an old computer though. > I got rid of 3 A2000's a couple years ago to another list member. ?At the > time I needed the space more than 3 A2000's. ?I still have 1.5 A500's, 1 > A600, 2 A3000's, and 2 A1200's (I might be able to build 1 working from the > two, but it need's surface mount work). The caps like to go from what I hear. >The A3000 I got from someone who > got it from Magni (I also have a pair of Magni Genlock's), and I fully > upgraded it with the latest chips, full 16MB+2MB RAM, ethernet, a Picasso IV > video card, and Amiga OS 3.9. ?I never could bring myself to spend the $$$'s > on a CPU accelerator card. ?The 2nd A3000 is basically pristine in the > boxes. ?Though I think the keyboard is in an A2000 box, not an A3000 box. I have most of what I need to put my 1200 motherboard into a custom case. I just need the lyra keyboard adapter to get a ps2 keyboard hooked up. That should be a fun project. It's high on the list once the wood shop is back together this weekend. brian From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Sep 15 22:51:20 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:51:20 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB060B8.5020309@oldskool.org> Joe Giliberti wrote: > I picked up an A500 recently. All I have for a display is the mono composite > out. Can I make an adapter for the RGB out to either VGA or component? If > not, where can I get an appropriate monitor? For my Amiga DVD (shameless plug: www.mindcandydvd.com), I used the Amiga RGB-to-15-pin-VGA adapter, then fed the VGA into a scan converter, which then converted it to component output. I used a broadcast-quality converter because Amigas use broadcast rates, ie. a horizontal scanning frequency of 15.7KHz. Most el-cheapo scan converters expect traditional VGA input (31.4Khz horizontal) and may not work properly, as most modern monitors might not either (although LCD monitors might, haven't tried). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Sep 15 23:06:41 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:06:41 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com><6dbe3c380909 151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> Message-ID: <4AB06451.6010700@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Didn't the 3D software used to do the graphics for Babylon 5 and other > shows (name escapes me) make use of at least the 060 upgrades? The Amiga, with a Video Toaster, was responsible for the animatics/roughs of Jurassic Park, and was also used for the entire first season of Babylon 5. (Later seasons used SGI) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 15 23:09:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 00:09:46 -0400 Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ In-Reply-To: References: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> Message-ID: <6F37EE05-BBF4-4B22-A593-E4D448FB0A75@neurotica.com> On Sep 15, 2009, at 6:48 PM, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > Item# QTY Description / Comments Category > 840 *** DEC Back Planes (70 lbs.) SCRAP > 841 *** DEC Back Planes (80 lbs.) SCRAP > If anyone has a working pdp11/44 backplane for me, drop me a short > mail ;-) And a PDP-11/44 power supply for me... :-/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 23:18:42 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 00:18:42 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909152043m2ae9c258sd790ede975996594@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> <6dbe3c380909152026u2a055760i4da4d69ca95cafc8@mail.gmail.com> <83D9848520594457ACA2FC75429617B4@dell8300> <6dbe3c380909152043m2ae9c258sd790ede975996594@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Shocking what I can get for 68K mac for little or nothing and >> how much it costs for something close on the Amiga (network cards anyone). That's why every once in a while, I sell a GG2 Bus+... nobody cares about extra serial ports or freeing up the built-in parallel port to use with some sort of digitizer - mostly, people want to drop a network card in their machine and don't want to pay $200-$300 for a Zorro card or more for a CPU upgrade with Ethernet built in. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 15 23:29:12 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 21:29:12 -0700 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909152048m57ca3e81jfdec44ede741b2bf@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152048m57ca3e81jfdec44ede741b2bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 10:48 PM -0500 9/15/09, Brian Lanning wrote: >I'm the same. Too many hobbies, not enough time. These days, classic >computing has taken a back seat to getting the wood shop done. Still >need to finish the basement also. :-/ With me it's photography that classic computing has taken a back seat to. Truth be told I'd much rather mess with Photography, and at least at the moment it takes less space. Though since I'm interested in Large Format camera's that could change. :-) > > I got rid of 3 A2000's a couple years ago to another list member. At the >> time I needed the space more than 3 A2000's. I still have 1.5 A500's, 1 >> A600, 2 A3000's, and 2 A1200's (I might be able to build 1 working from the >> two, but it need's surface mount work). > >The caps like to go from what I hear. That's my fear. I have a lot of gear that hasn't been powered up in 10+ years now. We simply didn't have room in the apartment for it. I have a small "computer lab" I'm setting up. The big problem is the PDP-11/44 still needs moved out of my parents garage, plus it has been about 9 years since I powered it up last. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 00:53:45 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909152043m2ae9c258sd790ede975996594@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Sep 15, 9 10:43:37 pm" Message-ID: <200909160553.n8G5rktJ016150@floodgap.com> > The real crazy prices are the people with the mediator boards and > 68060 boards for their 1200. A 68060 amiga with pci slots > transplanted into a tower case. You could buy a modern computer for > those prices. But alas, it wouldn't be an amiga. I've been toying with buying one of the modern PPC boards, but technically that wouldn't be an Amiga. Still, I was really impressed by how practical they could be, especially with the software people are writing still for it. Makes me wish there was a similar software interest for the classic MacOS, but you hardly ever seen anyone developing for it. Classilla has been a fun project. I don't know why others aren't interested in writing their own apps, especially since decent tools like FutureBASIC are now freeware. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's tradition, that makes it okay. -- Weird Al, "Weasel Stomping Day" ----- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 00:56:34 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <83D9848520594457ACA2FC75429617B4@dell8300> from Teo Zenios at "Sep 15, 9 11:33:08 pm" Message-ID: <200909160556.n8G5uYBx013154@floodgap.com> > I can understand people getting the rare upgrades just to get them, but the > prices are a bit insane in my opinion for what you can run. The best thing > for me would have been for Commodore to have lived long enough to sell PPC > Amigas so I can get the classic 68k ones cheap after people moved on to > newer ones. Shocking what I can get for 68K mac for little or nothing and > how much it costs for something close on the Amiga (network cards anyone). *cough*HombreHPPARISC*cough* Classic Mac collecting really is dirt cheap except for the oddball exotic pieces (CC, TAM, TV). It's rewarding, too, what you can do with it; there's a lot of places blowing used and NOS stuff out by the cartload, and much of it is still really useful and practical for small servers, even a backup workstation. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Experience only makes you more interesting and marketable. -- Judy Blackburn From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 00:58:00 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 22:58:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Sep 15, 9 10:13:18 pm" Message-ID: <200909160558.n8G5w02s016530@floodgap.com> > Still, the 500 was the one I had and I'd like to have one again. Mine has a GVP A570. Really useful box. It mostly plays games though, the occasional app. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Math according to Pentium: 2 / 2 = 1.037587439439485486372112039523781385 ... From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Sep 13 19:48:29 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Sep 2009, dwight elvey wrote: >>> Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes available? I have a Series II >>> MDS-225. >> >> I'm trying to help Richard out with copies of my ISIS-II diskettes. The >> SD diskettes read just fine using imagedisk, but the DD ones use M2FM >> (aka MMFM) encoding and are not recognized. >> >> In researching this on the net, I'm seeing conflicting claims as to >> whether the Catweasel controller will make sense of this format. Does >> anyone know from personal experience that it will? If so, what software >> tools were required? > Hi Steve > Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec > on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure > how it would be written back though. It can't be created > with any of todays controllers. I'd be happy to simply write out a new disk from the Catweasel at this point. > I'll keep an eye out for the clock/data spec but it may take > me some time to find it. It's in one of the Intel MDS manuals. Found some discussion of the format and links to the docs on Herb Johnson's web site. Steve p.s. - If anyone with a Catweasel and the necessary programming skills is interested in taking a crack at it, contact me privately and I will see about lending one of the M2FM diskettes to experiment with. My MDS system came from a university electronics lab and was accompanied with about 40 diskettes - projects and original masters. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Sep 13 19:48:29 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Sep 2009, dwight elvey wrote: >>> Do you have any Intel ISIS-II OS diskettes available? I have a Series II >>> MDS-225. >> >> I'm trying to help Richard out with copies of my ISIS-II diskettes. The >> SD diskettes read just fine using imagedisk, but the DD ones use M2FM >> (aka MMFM) encoding and are not recognized. >> >> In researching this on the net, I'm seeing conflicting claims as to >> whether the Catweasel controller will make sense of this format. Does >> anyone know from personal experience that it will? If so, what software >> tools were required? > Hi Steve > Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec > on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure > how it would be written back though. It can't be created > with any of todays controllers. I'd be happy to simply write out a new disk from the Catweasel at this point. > I'll keep an eye out for the clock/data spec but it may take > me some time to find it. It's in one of the Intel MDS manuals. Found some discussion of the format and links to the docs on Herb Johnson's web site. Steve p.s. - If anyone with a Catweasel and the necessary programming skills is interested in taking a crack at it, contact me privately and I will see about lending one of the M2FM diskettes to experiment with. My MDS system came from a university electronics lab and was accompanied with about 40 diskettes - projects and original masters. -- From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 11:02:40 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:02:40 -0600 Subject: VCF Midwest 5.0, the pre-quel In-Reply-To: <7A7D21CF81E24CEEAC3D6FC6AFDA6522@obie> References: <7A7D21CF81E24CEEAC3D6FC6AFDA6522@obie> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0909140902h69544eaer974ef81ad1003216@mail.gmail.com> Sorry you guys decided not to take up the offer again and hold it in Chicago next year. On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:17 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I'm hosting an open house for the Chicago Classic Computer group at my home > on Saturday, September 19. One of the agenda items will be the kickoff for > VCF 5.0, to be held in Chicago in 2010. > > If you are in the area, please feel free to join us on Saturday. RSVP > directly to me (offlist) for time and directions. > > More importantly, if you'd like to work with us to make VCF Chicago a > reality, please respond and let's get this thing started! > > best, > Jack > > jack DOT rubin AT ameritech DOT net > > From wgungfu at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 12:00:38 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:00:38 -0600 Subject: VCF Midwest 5.0, the pre-quel In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e0909140902h69544eaer974ef81ad1003216@mail.gmail.com> References: <7A7D21CF81E24CEEAC3D6FC6AFDA6522@obie> <2c768b1e0909140902h69544eaer974ef81ad1003216@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0909141000s13f3b35jf61bae4eca81f854@mail.gmail.com> Just realized I was missing a word. Should read - "Sorry you guys decided not to take up the offer again and instead are holding it in Chicago next year. Marty On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Sorry you guys decided not to take up the offer again and hold it in > Chicago next year. > > > > On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:17 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: > >> I'm hosting an open house for the Chicago Classic Computer group at my >> home >> on Saturday, September 19. One of the agenda items will be the kickoff for >> VCF 5.0, to be held in Chicago in 2010. >> >> If you are in the area, please feel free to join us on Saturday. RSVP >> directly to me (offlist) for time and directions. >> >> More importantly, if you'd like to work with us to make VCF Chicago a >> reality, please respond and let's get this thing started! >> >> best, >> Jack >> >> jack DOT rubin AT ameritech DOT net >> >> > From josecvalle at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 12:52:35 2009 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:52:35 -0300 Subject: Computer Museum closed, help us.. Message-ID: After eleven years of unwavering support for the Museu do Computador, Museu do Computador doors closed on august , 2007 at Av do Rio bonito, Sao Paulo. This is not the kind of news I want to start the New Year with, but I am confident that the hard work of the Museum volunteers and staff over these past eleven years will continue. I will be exploring every avenue to find new sources of financial support, with the hope of re-opening the Museum in the west side of Sao Paulo area in the near future. Your help and assistance in the past has been invaluable. In the coming months, you can continue that service by telling your friends and family about the Museum and how it has benefited the community. As we seek our future, I believe we can find solutions to the problems we face. Your ideas, contacts and efforts will contribute to that success. So?call, E-mail, write or shout at me, whatever it takes, until no stone is unturned and we have fulfilled our objective to save the Museu do Computador Thank you Jose Carlos Valle President Curator curador at museudocomputador.com.br take a look of my blog. http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br/?p=72 -- Jos? Carlos Valle - From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Sep 14 17:09:59 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909131715kdb79ba5sc52c82c54dddb24c@mail.gmail.com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com> <4AACF499.4060003@philpem.me.uk> <6dbe3c380909131715kdb79ba5sc52c82c54dddb24c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Sep 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 8:33 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> dwight elvey wrote: >>> >>> ?Catwheasel should be able to read the bits. I have the spec >>> on the different special marks some place. I'm not sure >>> how it would be written back though. It can't be created >>> with any of todays controllers. >> >> I'd be interested in a copy of the disc format spec too -- if no current >> disc writer can write them, it seems like something that might be useful to >> add to my analyser/reader/writer. > > I have a catweasel board. I'd be happy to try out any software you > can find. I think there's source code out there for linux that can > write images through the catweasel, but I haven't had time to play > with it yet. The windows software that comes with the board is > rudimentary and only supports a few 8-bit formats. I've talked with > Jens, the guy who designed the board. He's handed software work off > to someone else and development appears to have stopped. He's also > wrapped up in other projects and doesn't seem to interested. I have a catweasel MKIV+ here. The issue is software support. It's clear that no one is flying the plane with regard to official Catweasel support and the state of the documentation (such as it is) reflects that. Based on replies I've received on the list and privately, it appears that Linux intrinsics exist to read the raw flux patterns. These would have to be decoded afterwards, however. Writing from an image is another issue and I don't yet understand what's involved there. I've read, re-read and re-re-read the catweasel docs and still do not have a clear picture of what the card really does and how one uses it. If anyone can summarize it at a 10,000ft. level this would be greatly appreciated! Steve -- From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Sep 16 01:23:34 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:23:34 +0200 Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ In-Reply-To: References: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 > From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com > Date: Wed=2C 16 Sep 2009 00:48:22 +0200 > Subject: Re: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF=2C in NJ > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Item# QTY Description / Comments Category > 840 *** DEC Back Planes (70 lbs.) SCRAP > 841 *** DEC Back Planes (80 lbs.) SCRAP > If anyone has a working pdp11/44 backplane for me=2C drop me a short mail= =3B-) > > St=E9phane > http://www.conservatique.com Hi St=E9phane=2C =20 I have a spare 11/44 backplane=2C removed from a system. I cannot say if the machine was working=2C but you can have the 11/44 backplane for the shipping costs. =20 - Henk. = From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Sep 16 01:26:22 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:26:22 +0200 Subject: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF, in NJ In-Reply-To: <6F37EE05-BBF4-4B22-A593-E4D448FB0A75@neurotica.com> References: <719226.73884.qm@web110603.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4AAFF653.4040601@snarc.net> Message-ID: <6F37EE05-BBF4-4B22-A593-E4D448FB0A75 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Subject: Re: VINTAGE ELECTRONICS AND STUFF=2C in NJ > Date: Wed=2C 16 Sep 2009 00:09:46 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Sep 15=2C 2009=2C at 6:48 PM=2C Stephane Tsacas wrote: >> Item# QTY Description / Comments Category >> 840 *** DEC Back Planes (70 lbs.) SCRAP >> 841 *** DEC Back Planes (80 lbs.) SCRAP >> If anyone has a working pdp11/44 backplane for me=2C drop me a short >> mail =3B-) > > And a PDP-11/44 power supply for me... :-/ > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte=2C FL Hi Dave=2C =20 and from that same 11/44 I have saved the PSU. It's stored in the garden house=2C but considering the weigth=2C I do not think shipping is an option. Sometimes the goodies are at the other wrong side of the ocean ... The 11/44 PSU is free for pick up=2C I will not ship it. =20 - Henk. = From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 16 01:48:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:48:05 -0700 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com>, <6dbe3c380909131715kdb79ba5sc52c82c54dddb24c@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4AB027B5.24416.6920143@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2009 at 18:09, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I've read, re-read and re-re-read the catweasel docs and still do not > have a clear picture of what the card really does and how one uses it. > If anyone can summarize it at a 10,000ft. level this would be greatly > appreciated! It's *very* simple. The board has some SRAM (I don't know about the IV, but earlier models have about 128KB) some counters and a little bit of glue. Note that a drive produces a pulse during reading when the polarity of the magnetization of the media changes. So, when you write a floppy, you feed the drive with a waveform that's either high or low and on read, the drive produces a pulse when the writing waveform switched states. The CW can begin sampling at an index pulse or any arbitrary place-- similarly it can stop at an index pulse or any arbitrary place. Basically, when operating while reading, the CW records the time (from the last pulse) that a pulse arrives from the floppy drive. This time is in the range of 1-127 clock times, with the clock selectable from a short list of preset value and is stored, one value after another in the SRAM. When writing, the process is reversed. Everything regarding interpretation of the pulse-time data produced by the CW is done in software. Same goes for writing. Compared to the CW, a PC floppy controller has monumental intelligence. Before the CW IV, even signals to step the head from cylinder to cylinder were generated by software. --Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Sep 16 03:04:16 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:04:16 +0200 Subject: Cardreader "DEC CR10" In-Reply-To: <4AB04CD5.7040402@hachti.de> References: <4AB04CD5.7040402@hachti.de> Message-ID: <20090916080416.GA7738@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 04:26:29AM +0200, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hey folks, > > somewhere out there is sitting a unit called CR10. It's huge and I want to save it from scrap. How big is huge? Is it in the same size range as IBM card sorters? /P From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Sep 16 03:15:17 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:15:17 +0200 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090916101517.c05d8486.lehmann@ans-netz.de> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi TOny > You are correct. The way it read to me was that it was a > WD1000 type controller, not that it was actually a SA1000 > disk because he specified a specific disk type. > Maybe the OP can be more specific. > Dwight There is a hardware reference manual here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/zilog/s8000/03-3237-04_hwRef_Dec82.pdf - On page 32 you'll see the specifications of the shipped 33MB Winchester drive - On page 47 you'll see the signals of the WDC controller listed which are attached to the so called "FINCH adapter board". - On the pages 65-67 you'll see how this harddisk has to be attached to the FINCH adapter board and how this is to be connected to the WDC controller. - On the pages 109-119 you'll find the theory of operation.. >From the figure on page 65 I assume, that it is a SA100 interface. -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Sep 16 03:24:51 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:24:51 +0200 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20090916101517.c05d8486.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090916101517.c05d8486.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20090916102451.f2732721.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > - On the pages 109-119 you'll find the theory of operation.. The passage on page 112 is interesting: "The disk controller can control either a CDC or Finch drives". So maybe only for the "Finch" drives the FINCH adapter board is needed? But what is a CDC drive then. without the adapter board the 40pin Command/Data Connector from the WDC Controller must be attached directly to the harddisk - But I know no interface consists only of one 40pin connector (except PATA ;)) If wanted I can find out the signals of this 40pin connector because the signal listing on page 47 is the listing of the 96pin internal WDC controller connector. This gets changed onto a 30pin connector later. -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From gklinger at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 06:34:58 2009 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:34:58 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian Lanning wrote: > Individual computers is about to release a board similar to the > 1200/4000 model that plugs into the denise socket. The device is called the Indivision ECS. A few clarifications here... Release is scheduled for October 2009 and everything is proceeding according to schedule. It is designed to work in the Amiga 500, 500+, all 2000 variations (2000HD, 2500 etc. although a small modification may be required with rev. 4 boards), 3000 (the battery must be replaced with a low-profile one), 3000T, 600 ( A603 RAM expansion module required, also the internal floppy disk drive must be removed due to space constraints) and CDTV. Installation in an Amiga 500 is simple and straightforward and guaranteed to work. One last interesting tidbit is that two Indivision ECS units can be installed one on top of another allowing for dual monitor support (yes, even when used in an Amiga 500). Prices vary depending on retailer but the good news is that most places are taking orders for about $125 USD. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From gklinger at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 06:52:50 2009 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:52:50 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian Lanning wrote: > I just can't bring myself to spend $500 on an amiga. That comment made me smile. I would feel a lot less sheepish had I *only* spent $500 on upgrading my Amiga 1200. As it stands, I've spent between two and three times that amount adding a Blizzard 68060 accelerator, a Blizzard SCSI adaptor, 265MB of RAM, solid state storage, an Indivision 1200, a Subway USB controller, a Neobitz component video board and an ethernet card. There's more but you get the idea. I have assigned it a befitting network name: moneypit. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From gklinger at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 07:13:55 2009 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:13:55 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <200909160558.n8G5w02s016530@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <200909160558.n8G5w02s016530@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Mine has a GVP A570. Do you mean a Commodore A570 CD interface or a GVP A530 expansion unit? -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 07:36:43 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 05:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: from Golan Klinger at "Sep 16, 9 08:13:55 am" Message-ID: <200909161236.n8GCahgV015292@floodgap.com> > > Mine has a GVP A570. > > Do you mean a Commodore A570 CD interface or a GVP A530 expansion unit? Sorry, yes, it's a A530. Got my numbers crossed. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I don't mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy. -- Samuel Butler ---------------- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 08:38:22 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:38:22 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/16/09, Golan Klinger wrote: > The device is called the Indivision ECS. A few clarifications here... > > Release is scheduled for October 2009 and everything is proceeding > according to schedule. It is designed to work in the Amiga 500, 500+, > all 2000 variations (2000HD, 2500 etc. although a small modification > may be required with rev. 4 boards), 3000 (the battery must be > replaced with a low-profile one), 3000T, 600 ( A603 RAM expansion > module required, also the internal floppy disk drive must be removed > due to space constraints) and CDTV. Installation in an Amiga 500 is > simple and straightforward and guaranteed to work. Interesting. I have an A1000+Rejuvinator (plus a Spirit InBoard _and_ a Starboard+Stardrive... it's... heavily expanded ;-) I wonder if it could be made to fit in there (my expectation is a solid maybe, but probably not with the lid on). > One last > interesting tidbit is that two Indivision ECS units can be installed > one on top of another allowing for dual monitor support (yes, even > when used in an Amiga 500). Now _that_ is interesting. > Prices vary depending on retailer but the good news is that most > places are taking orders for about $125 USD. I might just have to look into one (or two) of those. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 16 09:05:37 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:05:37 -0700 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20090916101517.c05d8486.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090916101517.c05d8486.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:15:17 +0200 > From: lehmann at ans-netz.de > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Zilog System 8000 > > dwight elvey wrote: > >> Hi TOny >> You are correct. The way it read to me was that it was a >> WD1000 type controller, not that it was actually a SA1000 >> disk because he specified a specific disk type. >> Maybe the OP can be more specific. >> Dwight > > There is a hardware reference manual here: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/zilog/s8000/03-3237-04_hwRef_Dec82.pdf > > - On page 32 you'll see the specifications of the shipped 33MB Winchester > drive > - On page 47 you'll see the signals of the WDC controller listed which > are attached to the so called "FINCH adapter board". > - On the pages 65-67 you'll see how this harddisk has to be attached to > the FINCH adapter board and how this is to be connected to the WDC > controller. > - On the pages 109-119 you'll find the theory of operation.. > >>From the figure on page 65 I assume, that it is a SA100 interface. > Hi Oliver Well, it is not just a WD1000 controller connected to the bus with a bus buffer. The address register tells me that it is a DMA controller. Although, the WD1000 controller can be connected to a DMA controller, it can also be used in a polled mode. You'd need to build a smart interface between the WD1000 and the S8000 bus. It could be done with some PIC or other small uP. You'd still need to build the DMA controller. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Ready for Fall shows? Use Bing to find helpful ratings and reviews on digital tv's. http://www.bing.com/shopping/search?q=digital+tv's&form=MSHNCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHNCB_Vertical_Shopping_DigitalTVs_1x1 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 16 09:16:48 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:16:48 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <200909160556.n8G5uYBx013154@floodgap.com> References: <200909160556.n8G5uYBx013154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 10:56 PM -0700 9/15/09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Classic Mac collecting really is dirt cheap except for the oddball exotic >pieces (CC, TAM, TV). It's rewarding, too, what you can do with it; there's a >lot of places blowing used and NOS stuff out by the cartload, and much of >it is still really useful and practical for small servers, even a backup >workstation. How hard/expensive is it to get NOS Apple Extended II ADB keyboards? While I can't afford to right now, I really should invest in a couple, as well as a couple USB-to-ADB converters. Once I finally switched to Mac OS X I gave up on the ADB II Mouse, but I suspect I'd be lost without my keyboard. I paid $160 new for it in January of '97, and it has lasted through my 8500/180, G4/450, and is now on my G5 2x2 (I hope to get a Mac Pro soon). Amazingly the letters are intact, but the spacebar has groves worn in it. Once I switch to the Mac Pro I'll have to decide if I setup a Classic Mac to run a couple apps (there is no replacement for me for ClarisDraw aka MacDraw), or if I run them under an emulator). I've stayed at 10.4.11 so I can continue to run Classic. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 16 09:20:47 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:20:47 -0700 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 7:52 AM -0400 9/16/09, Golan Klinger wrote: >Brian Lanning wrote: > >> I just can't bring myself to spend $500 on an amiga. > >That comment made me smile. I would feel a lot less sheepish had I >*only* spent $500 on upgrading my Amiga 1200. As it stands, I've spent >between two and three times that amount adding a Blizzard 68060 >accelerator, a Blizzard SCSI adaptor, 265MB of RAM, solid state >storage, an Indivision 1200, a Subway USB controller, a Neobitz >component video board and an ethernet card. There's more but you get >the idea. I have assigned it a befitting network name: moneypit. Wouldn't we all, I hate to think about what I've spent on my A3000, and I don't have half the system you do. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 16 09:21:09 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:21:09 -0700 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <4AB027B5.24416.6920143@cclist.sydex.com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com>, <6dbe3c380909131715kdb79ba5sc52c82c54dddb24c@mail.gmail.com>, <4AB027B5.24416.6920143@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:48:05 -0700 > Subject: Re: Intellec MDS questions > > On 14 Sep 2009 at 18:09, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> I've read, re-read and re-re-read the catweasel docs and still do not >> have a clear picture of what the card really does and how one uses it. >> If anyone can summarize it at a 10,000ft. level this would be greatly >> appreciated! > > It's *very* simple. The board has some SRAM (I don't know about the > IV, but earlier models have about 128KB) some counters and a little > bit of glue. > > Note that a drive produces a pulse during reading when the polarity > of the magnetization of the media changes. So, when you write a > floppy, you feed the drive with a waveform that's either high or low > and on read, the drive produces a pulse when the writing waveform > switched states. > > The CW can begin sampling at an index pulse or any arbitrary place-- > similarly it can stop at an index pulse or any arbitrary place. > Basically, when operating while reading, the CW records the time > (from the last pulse) that a pulse arrives from the floppy drive. > This time is in the range of 1-127 clock times, with the clock > selectable from a short list of preset value and is stored, one value > after another in the SRAM. > > When writing, the process is reversed. > > Everything regarding interpretation of the pulse-time data produced > by the CW is done in software. Same goes for writing. Compared to > the CW, a PC floppy controller has monumental intelligence. > > Before the CW IV, even signals to step the head from cylinder to > cylinder were generated by software. > > --Chuck > > Hi I don't think one can just take the same timing that was read and write the bits back. Normally the controller adds some preemphasis and deemphasis to make the timing right for the reads. For the M2FM, this would require a little experimenting. I do think the CW could do the job though. What sample frequencies does it have? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Bing brings you health info from trusted sources. http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHEINA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1 From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 09:34:37 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 16, 9 07:16:48 am" Message-ID: <200909161434.n8GEYbap017712@floodgap.com> > >Classic Mac collecting really is dirt cheap except for the oddball exotic > >pieces (CC, TAM, TV). It's rewarding, too, what you can do with it; there's a > >lot of places blowing used and NOS stuff out by the cartload, and much of > >it is still really useful and practical for small servers, even a backup > >workstation. > > How hard/expensive is it to get NOS Apple Extended II ADB keyboards? Pristine NOS? I would imagine not easy, but I see used E2 ADB keyboards all the time for a few bucks. I just clean them up and put them in service. It's a great keyboard. That said, I don't mind the Pro keyboard, although the current chiclet keyboard makes me think of a growth-stunted PCjr. > Once I switch to the Mac Pro I'll have to decide if I setup a Classic > Mac to run a couple apps (there is no replacement for me for > ClarisDraw aka MacDraw), or if I run them under an emulator). I've > stayed at 10.4.11 so I can continue to run Classic. That's pretty much where I am. I think there are quite a few people who won't update past Tiger for the same reason. I would be surprised if Apple kept releasing security patches, though. Steve Jobs has shown a remarkable penchant for rapidly jettisoning the past, which is as always good and bad. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's tradition, that makes it okay. -- Weird Al, "Weasel Stomping Day" ----- From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Sep 16 09:37:00 2009 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:37:00 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest 5.0, the pre-quel In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e0909141000s13f3b35jf61bae4eca81f854@mail.gmail.com> References: <7A7D21CF81E24CEEAC3D6FC6AFDA6522@obie><2c768b1e0909140902h69544eaer974ef81ad1003216@mail.gmail.com> <2c768b1e0909141000s13f3b35jf61bae4eca81f854@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033AA98D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> What offer? -Bob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Martin Goldberg Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 12:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: VCF Midwest 5.0, the pre-quel Just realized I was missing a word. Should read - "Sorry you guys decided not to take up the offer again and instead are holding it in Chicago next year. Marty On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 10:02 AM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Sorry you guys decided not to take up the offer again and hold it in > Chicago next year. > > > > On Mon, Sep 14, 2009 at 6:17 AM, Jack Rubin wrote: > >> I'm hosting an open house for the Chicago Classic Computer group at my >> home >> on Saturday, September 19. One of the agenda items will be the kickoff for >> VCF 5.0, to be held in Chicago in 2010. >> >> If you are in the area, please feel free to join us on Saturday. RSVP >> directly to me (offlist) for time and directions. >> >> More importantly, if you'd like to work with us to make VCF Chicago a >> reality, please respond and let's get this thing started! >> >> best, >> Jack >> >> jack DOT rubin AT ameritech DOT net >> >> > From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 10:01:46 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:01:46 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0909160801r65e83304s2cb9045b38161147@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 21:33, Joe Giliberti wrote: > I picked up an A500 recently. All I have for a display is the mono composite > out. Can I make an adapter for the RGB out to either VGA or component? If > not, where can I get an appropriate monitor? > > Thanks > Joe The 23-pin video connector outputs analog RGB - european TVs with SCART can be hooked up with an adapter, IIRC. Nowadays, Component video (YCrCb?) is common on midrange sets here in North America. I have seen schematics for a RGB-to-Component converter, basically 3 opamps doing the linear transformation. If I do some digging in my files, I may have kept a copy (I just found it by googling). I've been considering this, though - the output from denise (U4 on page F-6 in "Introduction to the Amiga 500) is basically 12-bit RGB (4 bits each) into the video Hybrid HY1, which is basically a D/A converter. Wouldn't it be possible to program a PAL/GAL/FPGA/Fast EPROM to do the transformation in digital space (one big 12-bit to 12-bit lookup table)? (Basically replace the U40 and U41 buffers) If 4-bit-each resolution is no good in the YCrCb space, fast 6 or 8-bit D/A's should be easy to get off the shelves these days, no? Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Sep 16 10:08:21 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:08:21 +0200 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <20090916101517.c05d8486.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20090916170821.79cd4aff.lehmann@ans-netz.de> dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi Oliver > Well, it is not just a WD1000 controller connected to the bus > with a bus buffer. The address register tells me that it is a > DMA controller. Although, the WD1000 controller can be connected > to a DMA controller, it can also be used in a polled mode. > You'd need to build a smart interface between the WD1000 and > the S8000 bus. It could be done with some PIC or other small > uP. You'd still need to build the DMA controller. > Dwight > It is a selfmade WDC Controller using a Z80 for the calculation and so on. If I cannot get my hands on a propper disk I might replace the whole controller with a controller which access a IDE disk or similar. But before I consider this, I need the tape part and the cartriges. Without them I don't need any harddisk - I just don't have the ZEUS-OS which I want to run on it ;) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 10:11:33 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:11:33 -0400 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/16/09, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Wouldn't we all, I hate to think about what I've spent on my A3000, > and I don't have half the system you do. I bought an A3000 new (that and my A1000, the rest was used/free)... between "simple" memory upgrades and HD floppies/larger SCSI disks and an A2065, I've got well over $3K in it, possibly over $4K (not counting the GG2 Bus+ I made myself). The A1000 was upgraded incrementally with a mix of new and used parts, so it's tough to add it all up, but when I was populating the Spirit InBoard in the late 1980s, it was during the DRAM Dumping tariff war with Japan, and I remember individual 41256 chips soared from $3.50 each to $17.50 each essentially overnight (fortunately, I was able to scavenge some 50256 chips from a discarded engineering prototype at work, so I _didn't_ personally pay $560.00/MB). Stuff today is so cheap it's not funny; of course much of it is less interesting, thus the reason for still playing with the old stuff. -ethan From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 16 10:22:03 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:22:03 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <4AB06451.6010700@oldskool.org> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909 151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> <4AB06451.6010700@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090916094842.0441da58@mail.threedee.com> At 11:06 PM 9/15/2009, Jim Leonard wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Didn't the 3D software used to do the graphics for Babylon 5 and other shows (name escapes me) make use of at least the 060 upgrades? > >The Amiga, with a Video Toaster, was responsible for the animatics/roughs of Jurassic Park, and was also used for the entire first season of Babylon 5. (Later seasons used SGI) I don't remember any SGIs, and neither do these guys at the moment they were interviewed. http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/effects.html Newtek's Lightwave software for 3D animation ran on Amigas first, using the Toaster side only as a framebuffer for desk-checks of the higher quality NTSC output. The reality is, the rendered digital versions of frames were often pushed out through other real-time digital playback devices such as the Abekas (the DDR mentioned above). Later versions of Lightwave were ported to Windows both Intel and Alpha. For a year or two window in the early 90s, the Alpha had an edge over Intel. Moto released the '060 in '94 but I don't remember when the first Amiga boards appeared. That article mentions some effects done in Softimage. I know that Thornton used 3D Studio for some of the modelling in the early days of B5, as they'd use my 3D conversion software to move the models from 3DS format to Lightwave... but you'll have to take my word for that. As we've seen time and time again, press releases seem to write computer history. :-) - John From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 16 11:25:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:25:03 -0700 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com>, <4AB027B5.24416.6920143@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4AB0AEEF.13255.12CCED@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2009 at 7:21, dwight elvey wrote: > I don't think one can just take the same timing that was read > and write the bits back. Normally the controller adds some preemphasis > and deemphasis to make the timing right for the reads. For the M2FM, > this would require a little experimenting. > I do think the CW could do the job though. > What sample frequencies does it have? The raw frequencies are selectable from 14,161, 28.322 and 56.644 MHz, but I believe that these are divided by 16 for the actual sample rate. Almost all of my work involves reading, not writing (the original equipment is usually long gone). The only time I can recall having to use the CW for duplication was to duplicate some RX02 floppies with DECs interesting implementation of MFM. I'd first recommend trying out Tim Mann's CW2DMK and DMK2CW utilities on one of the MDS floppies? It might just work... Cheers, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Sep 16 11:56:38 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:56:38 -0400 Subject: Robert C. Peckham -- RIP Message-ID: <4AB118C6.3020000@compsys.to> I though that this post on alt.sys.pdp11 would be of interest. From: Alan Frisbie Newsgroup: alt.sys.dpd11 It is my sad duty to report the passing of long-time RT-11 and PDP-11 fan, and my friend, Robert C. Peckham. Bob was one of the driving forces behind the last release (v5.7 -- Y2K-compliant) of RT-11. He continued to use it long after most other people had moved on to other platforms. Bob died peacefully in his sleep at home on September 9, 2009. He had suffered from a variety of ailments over the years, and they gradually forced him to give up the work and activities he loved so much. His friends and family hope that he finds a racetrack and fast cars in heaven so he can once again enjoy the sport he excelled at. Of immediate concern to the family is what to do with Bob's collection of PDP-11 systems and supplies. An inventory has not yet been made, but they want it to go to "a good home", someone who would appreciate it. Besides the PDP-11 equipment, there are also several Wright Line media cabinets, DEC manuals, handbooks, and related supplies. There is at least one 9-track tape drive, one or two Diablo 630 printers, and an LA120 DECwriter. Everything is located in Glendale, California. Because Bob left his family with a mountain of debts, they cannot afford to ship anything and would appreciate at least a nominal payment for some of the items. I will post an inventory to these groups in the next few weeks as we dig our way through the collection. Feel free to contact me at the above address if there is anything in particular you would like me to keep my eyes open for. Sincerely, Alan E. Frisbie -- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. 323-256-2575 -- 4759 Round Top Drive -- Los Angeles, CA 90065 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 16 12:59:24 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 10:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <200909161434.n8GEYbap017712@floodgap.com> References: <200909161434.n8GEYbap017712@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> How hard/expensive is it to get NOS Apple Extended II ADB keyboards? > > Pristine NOS? I would imagine not easy, but I see used E2 ADB keyboards > all the time for a few bucks. I just clean them up and put them in service. > It's a great keyboard. That's my guess, and I should have one or two on my keyboard shelves. When we moved out of storage, we were going to fast for me to really pay any attention to what I was shoving on the shelves. I have a couple shelves dedicated to keyboards sitting on edge, I have a lot of keyboards! :-) > That said, I don't mind the Pro keyboard, although the current chiclet > keyboard makes me think of a growth-stunted PCjr. Is that the stupid ultra-thin abomination? The white and clear keyboard that came with my G5 is pretty nice, I use it on my Windows work laptop when I'm working from home. My problem is I like the extra space the Extended II keyboard has at the back, and tend to store stuff on it. :-) >> Once I switch to the Mac Pro I'll have to decide if I setup a Classic >> Mac to run a couple apps (there is no replacement for me for >> ClarisDraw aka MacDraw), or if I run them under an emulator). I've >> stayed at 10.4.11 so I can continue to run Classic. > > That's pretty much where I am. I think there are quite a few people who > won't update past Tiger for the same reason. I would be surprised if Apple > kept releasing security patches, though. Steve Jobs has shown a remarkable > penchant for rapidly jettisoning the past, which is as always good and bad. I wanted to move to 10.5 once it matured, and I even bought a family pack of 10.5, of which I've only used one of the five licenses. :-( Then I realized I'd loose classic if I upgraded. What gets me is that Apple or some third party doesn't offer a commercial emulator for those of us that need to run our old software still. I'm surprised we're still getting security patches, but it's not Apple that is forcing me to upgrade. Adobe has annouced that they will be stopping support of PPC based Mac's. Just like with classic, I knew I'd have to switch eventually. Besides when I upgrade I'll move from 7GB of RAM up to 16GB. :-) Even though I have 7GB I desperatly need more RAM! Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 16 13:03:08 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090916094842.0441da58@mail.threedee.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909 151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> <4AB06451.6010700@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20090916094842.0441da58@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, John Foust wrote: > I don't remember any SGIs, and neither do these guys at the moment > they were interviewed. > > http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/effects.html > > Newtek's Lightwave software for 3D animation ran on Amigas first, > using the Toaster side only as a framebuffer for desk-checks of > the higher quality NTSC output. The reality is, the rendered digital > versions of frames were often pushed out through other real-time > digital playback devices such as the Abekas (the DDR mentioned above). > > Later versions of Lightwave were ported to Windows both Intel and Alpha. > For a year or two window in the early 90s, the Alpha had an edge over Intel. > Moto released the '060 in '94 but I don't remember when the first > Amiga boards appeared. Lightwave, that's the software I was trying to remember. I can guarentee it ran on SGI IRIX machines as well. I don't know if SGI's were used in making B5 though. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 16 13:07:14 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 14:07:14 -0400 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <200909161434.n8GEYbap017712@floodgap.com> References: <200909161434.n8GEYbap017712@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <416033C3-F90C-472A-9A47-D1F9D60CD3C2@neurotica.com> On Sep 16, 2009, at 10:34 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > That's pretty much where I am. I think there are quite a few people > who > won't update past Tiger for the same reason. I'm one of those people. > I would be surprised if Apple > kept releasing security patches, though. Steve Jobs has shown a > remarkable > penchant for rapidly jettisoning the past, which is as always good > and bad. If only Intel would do that.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 13:12:53 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 16, 9 10:59:24 am" Message-ID: <200909161812.n8GICrbK017926@floodgap.com> > > Pristine NOS? I would imagine not easy, but I see used E2 ADB keyboards > > all the time for a few bucks. I just clean them up and put them in service. > > It's a great keyboard. > > That's my guess, and I should have one or two on my keyboard shelves. When > we moved out of storage, we were going to fast for me to really pay any > attention to what I was shoving on the shelves. I have a couple shelves > dedicated to keyboards sitting on edge, I have a lot of keyboards! :-) So do I. I've started hoarding AT and PS/2 keyboards also -- in fact, my old Cyrix DOS games PC and my BeBox/133 demand AT connectors. I doubt the PS/2 keyboard supply will ever dry up, but none of them were built to last except maybe the high-end offerings. > > That said, I don't mind the Pro keyboard, although the current chiclet > > keyboard makes me think of a growth-stunted PCjr. > > Is that the stupid ultra-thin abomination? The white and clear keyboard > that came with my G5 is pretty nice, I use it on my Windows work laptop when > I'm working from home. My problem is I like the extra space the Extended II > keyboard has at the back, and tend to store stuff on it. :-) Yup, the ultra-thin one is the one I mean. The Pro (which is the white/clear one and the black/clear one before) isn't bad, but I can't stand the current Apple keyboards. > I wanted to move to 10.5 once it matured, and I even bought a family pack of > 10.5, of which I've only used one of the five licenses. :-( Then I realized > I'd loose classic if I upgraded. What gets me is that Apple or some third > party doesn't offer a commercial emulator for those of us that need to > run our old software still. I was hoping that SheepShaver got picked up by someone knowledgeable but so far no one has, and it's not evolving. It still has a lot of stability issues and the emulation core is underwhelming (no MMU is not a big deal, but it just won't run a lot of things). I'm toying with working on it myself, but I don't really need it badly enough because I'm Tiger Forever, and I have plenty of classic systems that I use regularly (I'm priming my 9.2.2 TiBook G4 into becoming my alternative laptop, although I'll probably give in and get a MacBook for current software as my one nod to the Intel world). > I'm surprised we're still getting security patches, but it's not Apple that > is forcing me to upgrade. Adobe has annouced that they will be stopping > support of PPC based Mac's. Just like with classic, I knew I'd have to > switch eventually. Besides when I upgrade I'll move from 7GB of RAM up to > 16GB. :-) Even though I have 7GB I desperatly need more RAM! I imagine we'll still see iTunes and Safari updates, at least through version 9.x and 4.x while they last, maybe QuickTime for the last gasp of QT7. I plan to try to roll my own security updates otherwise, and maintain a Gecko browser for Tiger. I just like/need the classic MacOS too much to give it up just because Steve "Deliver De Liver" Jobs says so. If there were an Amiga PPC laptop, I'd buy it today. I was really impressed with the ports to OS 4.1, and Origyn covers the Internet aspects. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Life isn't fair. But having the root password helps. ----------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 16 13:28:54 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <200909161812.n8GICrbK017926@floodgap.com> References: <200909161812.n8GICrbK017926@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > So do I. I've started hoarding AT and PS/2 keyboards also -- in fact, my > old Cyrix DOS games PC and my BeBox/133 demand AT connectors. I doubt the > PS/2 keyboard supply will ever dry up, but none of them were built to last > except maybe the high-end offerings. I still use a AT 101 keyboard via a PS/2 converter on my PC at home. :-) I've used that keyboard since '91 when I got my 486. I've lost track of how many different computers it's been connected to. I've even had it talking to Sun workstations via a PS/2-to-Sun converter. My favorite PS/2 keyboard is the one that came with my first SGI O2. It is solid. > I was hoping that SheepShaver got picked up by someone knowledgeable but so > far no one has, and it's not evolving. It still has a lot of stability issues > and the emulation core is underwhelming (no MMU is not a big deal, but it > just won't run a lot of things). I'm toying with working on it myself, but I > don't really need it badly enough because I'm Tiger Forever, and I have > plenty of classic systems that I use regularly (I'm priming my 9.2.2 > TiBook G4 into becoming my alternative laptop, although I'll probably give in > and get a MacBook for current software as my one nod to the Intel world). The worst part is, SheepShaver was a commercial product. I've been really tempted to look into an old enough PowerBook that it will run something in the System 8.0 to 8.6 range. That would run all the Classic software I want just fine. It wouldn't even need much RAM. Basically my needs are ClarisDraw, the original Master of Orion and Warlords 2. For those games the Mac versions are vastly superior to the PC versions since they allow for larger video resolutions. Warlords 2 is the tricky one, it stopped working right sometime during 8.x or 9. My only Mac laptop is a PowerBook 540c which is 640x480, and I'd like something with higher resolution. I bought it used as it was cheaper than getting the screen on my 520c fixed. > If there were an Amiga PPC laptop, I'd buy it today. I was really impressed > with the ports to OS 4.1, and Origyn covers the Internet aspects. For me the software isn't there. Anymore I have two options, Windows or Mac OS X since my main apps are Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop. Besides the price to performance ratio on the Amiga's is whacked. I didn't realize 4.1 was out. Any new hardware? Zane From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 16 13:31:20 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:31:20 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) References: <200909160556.n8G5uYBx013154@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4AB12EF8.1AA97C27@cs.ubc.ca> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > Once I switch to the Mac Pro I'll have to decide if I setup a Classic > Mac to run a couple apps (there is no replacement for me for > ClarisDraw aka MacDraw), or if I run them under an emulator). I've > stayed at 10.4.11 so I can continue to run Classic. I'm actually still running native Classic for these sorts of reasons. I must try out Cameron's Classilla for an improved browser, but I've been meaning to ask here about ClarisDraw/MacDraw for awhile. I have hundreds of pages of reverse-engineered schematics of old equipment, drawn in ClarisWorks. It's my own 'symbol library' so I don't expect to be able to convert them easily to some common CAD schematic capture, but does anyone know of a conversion or upgrade path to pull these into the future (or present), besides printing and scanning them? Alternatively, is the file format definition out there in public, so I might write a conversion program some day? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 16 14:00:02 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <4AB12EF8.1AA97C27@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200909160556.n8G5uYBx013154@floodgap.com> <4AB12EF8.1AA97C27@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: > try out Cameron's Classilla for an improved browser, but I've been meaning to > ask here about ClarisDraw/MacDraw for awhile. > > I have hundreds of pages of reverse-engineered schematics of old equipment, > drawn in ClarisWorks. It's my own 'symbol library' so I don't expect to be able > to convert them easily to some common CAD schematic capture, but does anyone > know of a conversion or upgrade path to pull these into the future (or > present), besides printing and scanning them? > > Alternatively, is the file format definition out there in public, so I might > write a conversion program some day? Over the past 2-3 years or so there have been several applications that will read the ClarisDraw file format. However, to the best of my knowledge none of them will read a custom 'symbol library', I have a library of my own symbols as well, and haven't tried to read it with anything else. I forget what the app I have that will read them is called, I like it more for converting than for using as a drawing program. One of these days, after I move to a more modern Mac, I want to demo the various CAD packages that are available. I've been thinking, and I suspect that a CAD app is likely to be more to my liking than any of the drawing apps (I even own Adobe Illustrator and hate it). Zane From gklinger at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 14:08:20 2009 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:08:20 -0400 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <4AB12EF8.1AA97C27@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200909160556.n8G5uYBx013154@floodgap.com> <4AB12EF8.1AA97C27@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: A few people in our lab needed access to an OS 9 era program called StatView on their Intel-based Macs (currently running 10.6.1) so I installed SheepShaver (specifically something called "Classic on Intel") which provides a Classic-like Mac OS 9.2.2 environment. So far everything is working perfectly. In fact, the users are quite pleased because StatView runs considerably faster under ShapeShaver on their current Macs than it did on the hardware it was originally run on. Using an older, non-supported version of OS X just wasn't an option. -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Sep 16 14:19:52 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:19:52 -0700 Subject: Cardreader "DEC CR10" In-Reply-To: <4AB04CD5.7040402@hachti.de> References: <4AB04CD5.7040402@hachti.de> Message-ID: > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:26 PM > Does anyone know if there's a difference between a CR10 and CR11? I have a > CR11 Unibus interface... > Perhaps I could make them working together? The CR-10 is a card reader designed for the PDP-10 I/O bus and requires a BA-10 controller. It's a 36-bit device and won't fit on any PDP-11 bus. > Is anyone desperately looking for such a thing? In that case.... Located in > northern Germany. If it comes with a BA-10, let me know. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ From ray at arachelian.com Wed Sep 16 15:16:45 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 16:16:45 -0400 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <200909161812.n8GICrbK017926@floodgap.com> References: <200909161812.n8GICrbK017926@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4AB147AD.7070201@arachelian.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I was hoping that SheepShaver got picked up by someone knowledgeable but so > far no one has, and it's not evolving. It still has a lot of stability issues > Give Basilisk II a shot for the 68k apps. http://basilisk.cebix.net/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 16 16:29:20 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 16:29:20 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909 151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> <0694D732B24E4580A2A4576CF8FF4BFF@dell8300> <4AB06451.6010700@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20090916094842.0441da58@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090916162606.04741f68@mail.threedee.com> At 01:03 PM 9/16/2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Lightwave, that's the software I was trying to remember. I can guarentee >it ran on SGI IRIX machines as well. I don't know if SGI's were used in >making B5 though. Yes, Lightwave was ported to SGI and in beta by fall 1995. - John From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 18:59:54 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:59:54 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909152013n1e36cf28q7f98e084f5291ac7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909161659s13b89132u6944f63ba5f614f0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 6:52 AM, Golan Klinger wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > That comment made me smile. I would feel a lot less sheepish had I > *only* spent $500 on upgrading my Amiga 1200. As it stands, I've spent > between two and three times that amount adding a Blizzard 68060 > accelerator, a Blizzard SCSI adaptor, 265MB of RAM, solid state > storage, an Indivision 1200, a Subway USB controller, a Neobitz > component video board and an ethernet card. There's more but you get > the idea. I have assigned it a befitting network name: moneypit. I'd love to have that machine. :-) But $1500 buys a lot of woodworking machinery. Gotta have priorities I guess. lol brian From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 20:51:00 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <4AB147AD.7070201@arachelian.com> from Ray Arachelian at "Sep 16, 9 04:16:45 pm" Message-ID: <200909170151.n8H1p0OV004728@floodgap.com> > > I was hoping that SheepShaver got picked up by someone knowledgeable but so > > far no one has, and it's not evolving. It still has a lot of stability > > issues > Give Basilisk II a shot for the 68k apps. http://basilisk.cebix.net/ B2 is a great app. The problem is, it's 68K apps, and all of my 'interesting' apps are PPC. Someone(tm) needs to get SheepShaver to the same point B2 is at. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -- Chico Marx ------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 20:52:29 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: from Golan Klinger at "Sep 16, 9 03:08:20 pm" Message-ID: <200909170152.n8H1qTPr018650@floodgap.com> > A few people in our lab needed access to an OS 9 era program called > StatView on their Intel-based Macs (currently running 10.6.1) so I > installed SheepShaver (specifically something called "Classic on > Intel") which provides a Classic-like Mac OS 9.2.2 environment. So far > everything is working perfectly. In fact, the users are quite pleased > because StatView runs considerably faster under ShapeShaver on their > current Macs than it did on the hardware it was originally run on. > Using an older, non-supported version of OS X just wasn't an option. SheepShaver is great *for those apps that work with it*. The problem is there are a lot of apps that just don't, and it has no MMU, so apps requiring 9.1 and 9.2 need not apply. It also has quite a number of crash bugs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Doesn't everyone cry when Vin Diesel tries to act? -- Impact Alberto, CAA -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 16 21:04:52 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:04:52 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <200909170151.n8H1p0OV004728@floodgap.com> References: <200909170151.n8H1p0OV004728@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 6:51 PM -0700 9/16/09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I was hoping that SheepShaver got picked up by someone >knowledgeable but so >> > far no one has, and it's not evolving. It still has a lot of stability >> > issues > >> Give Basilisk II a shot for the 68k apps. http://basilisk.cebix.net/ > >B2 is a great app. The problem is, it's 68K apps, and all of my 'interesting' >apps are PPC. > >Someone(tm) needs to get SheepShaver to the same point B2 is at. That tells me I should be looking at Basilisk II then, and not SheepShaver. All my "interesting" apps are 68k or I have Mac OS X versions, and if they aren't already, they soon will have Intel native versions. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 21:07:51 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 16, 9 11:28:54 am" Message-ID: <200909170207.n8H27p8f007304@floodgap.com> > The worst part is, SheepShaver was a commercial product. Oh, I know. I *know*. I have the commercial SheepShaver running on the BeBox! The problem is that the BeBox really isn't up to the task, at least not OS 8.6. I did get some more RAM for it and I'm going to try to tinker with the settings, but it's pretty glacial and it pegs the core(s). They're just 603s and that's probably why. > I've been really > tempted to look into an old enough PowerBook that it will run something in > the System 8.0 to 8.6 range. That would run all the Classic software I want > just fine. It wouldn't even need much RAM. Basically my needs are > ClarisDraw, the original Master of Orion and Warlords 2. For those games > the Mac versions are vastly superior to the PC versions since they allow for > larger video resolutions. Warlords 2 is the tricky one, it stopped working > right sometime during 8.x or 9. My only Mac laptop is a PowerBook 540c > which is 640x480, and I'd like something with higher resolution. I bought > it used as it was cheaper than getting the screen on my 520c fixed. I bet an early G3 iBook would do the trick. You could run 8.1 on that, like a Rev B blueberryBook or something. I have exactly that, with 576MB of RAM, and it's *very* happy in OS 9.2.2. :) My primary OS 9 machines, though, are a dual 1.25GHz G4 MDD and a 867MHz TiBook G4. They do very, very well! :-D > > If there were an Amiga PPC laptop, I'd buy it today. I was really impressed > > with the ports to OS 4.1, and Origyn covers the Internet aspects. > > For me the software isn't there. Anymore I have two options, Windows or Mac > OS X since my main apps are Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop. Besides the > price to performance ratio on the Amiga's is whacked. I didn't realize 4.1 > was out. Any new hardware? I was looking at the SAMflex 440EP boards myself. Really, to make a platform useful to me personally I need a decent browser and SSH, and I can make do with that. OS 9 gives me MacSSH, I'm dragging Classilla slowly up to spec, and I have my old apps library, of course. But on AOS 4.1 I was impressed to find a port of OpenSSH, Origyn Web Browser has a very nice implementation of webkit (rough in some places but more than functional), and of course lots of other well-behaved older apps. I can get a complete system for around a grand. Since I'm a nerdy bachelor, I am really, really tempted. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Mistakes are often the stepping stones to catastrophic failure. ------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 16 21:08:53 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 16, 9 07:04:52 pm" Message-ID: <200909170208.n8H28rEl019642@floodgap.com> > > Someone(tm) needs to get SheepShaver to the same point B2 is at. > > That tells me I should be looking at Basilisk II then, and not > SheepShaver. All my "interesting" apps are 68k or I have Mac OS X > versions, and if they aren't already, they soon will have Intel > native versions. In that case, I'm with Ray. Go try B2 and see how well it works for you. It's a much more solid emulator. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This geek BRKs for 6502s. -------------------------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 16 21:45:53 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 19:45:53 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <200909170207.n8H27p8f007304@floodgap.com> References: <200909170207.n8H27p8f007304@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 7:07 PM -0700 9/16/09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > The worst part is, SheepShaver was a commercial product. > >Oh, I know. I *know*. I have the commercial SheepShaver running on the BeBox! >The problem is that the BeBox really isn't up to the task, at least not OS >8.6. I did get some more RAM for it and I'm going to try to tinker with >the settings, but it's pretty glacial and it pegs the core(s). They're just >603s and that's probably why. They're 603's, of course that is why! :-) >I bet an early G3 iBook would do the trick. You could run 8.1 on that, like >a Rev B blueberryBook or something. I have exactly that, with 576MB of RAM, >and it's *very* happy in OS 9.2.2. :) My primary OS 9 machines, though, are >a dual 1.25GHz G4 MDD and a 867MHz TiBook G4. They do very, very well! :-D The G3 iBooks are 8.6 or newer. My G4/450 is one of the original shipment, so it will actually run a special version of 8.6. For a laptop it looks like I would want a Wallstreet, or Wallstreet II G3 PowerBook with the larger screen. Realistically I should just revive either the G4/450 or 8500/180. I know I can run the software on the 8500. >I was looking at the SAMflex 440EP boards myself. Really, to make a platform >useful to me personally I need a decent browser and SSH, and I can make do >with that. OS 9 gives me MacSSH, I'm dragging Classilla slowly up to spec, >and I have my old apps library, of course. But on AOS 4.1 I was impressed >to find a port of OpenSSH, Origyn Web Browser has a very nice implementation >of webkit (rough in some places but more than functional), and of course >lots of other well-behaved older apps. I can get a complete system for around >a grand. Since I'm a nerdy bachelor, I am really, really tempted. I was taking a look at AROS earlier today. I'm getting pretty impressed there. You can buy systems in the UK now that dual boot AROS and Ubuntu. It looks pretty easy to get the parts, it uses a standard Intel 330 Atom motherboard. I've been wanting to get basically the exact same system for another purpose, so am really tempted to get the parts and build one. If I don't like it, or find I'm not using it I can rebuild it for the purpose I had originally planned. BTW, I also noticed that Haiku has just released Haiku Alpha 1. That's pretty impressive. I'm not sure if that puts them ahead of AROS or not. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Sep 17 00:05:36 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 16, 9 07:45:53 pm" Message-ID: <200909170505.n8H55aDo015596@floodgap.com> > > I bet an early G3 iBook would do the trick. You could run 8.1 on that, > > The G3 iBooks are 8.6 or newer. Oh, you're right. Yes, get a WallStreet. > BTW, I also noticed that Haiku has just released Haiku Alpha 1. > That's pretty impressive. I'm not sure if that puts them ahead of > AROS or not. Until I see Haiku/ppc it's dead to me ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immortality can always be assured by spectacular error. -- J. K. Galbraith - From rikbos at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 16 05:32:38 2009 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 12:32:38 +0200 Subject: HP 9000 236 on epay Message-ID: <9B0A3456B5DD48A19B8BF369D5255387@xp1800> HP 9836 or 9000/236 Item 220479964990 missing a few keys looks further okay. I'm not the seller just saw it scrawling through epay.. -Rik From iamvirtual at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 23:13:01 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:13:01 -0600 Subject: ASR33 Message-ID: <2645f9870909162113q4782c620u935e2255e5c9fa8e@mail.gmail.com> I have finally acquired a Teletype ASR33 for my PDP-11s (/20 and /10). Is there any chance of damaging the console port of my PDP-11/10 when I connect directly to the ASR33? Should I use some sort of electrical isolator board between the TTY and the port? Is there any way of testing the ASR33 prior to connecting to the 20mA port? The TTY seems to work fine in local mode. I have not yet tried line mode yet. What is the connection diagram between the 9 pin terminal strip on the TTY to the DEC console port? Thanks for any information you can provide. --barrym From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 06:43:59 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380909151938y4ea32785m4690365f51f4214e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Sep 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: >> I picked up an A500 recently. All I have for a display is the mono composite >> out. Can I make an adapter for the RGB out to either VGA or component? If >> not, where can I get an appropriate monitor? > > They make devices called scan doublers or flicker-fixers (same thing). > They do what the name implies. They step the frequency up from 15 to > 30 making them work with most vga monitors. There's an external model > that was made after the amigas went out of production. It's > ridiculously expensive. Expect to pay several hundred dollars on > ebay. If you don't want to wait for Jens Schoenfeld's piggy-back video converter I can tell you from experience that the Highway Model 100 converter works just fine. Even in interlaced mode the display is rock solid. Check out: http://www.converters.tv/products/rgb_to_vga/100.html You would need to build a SCART <--> Amiga video cable if you go this route, but it's not very difficult to wire up. They provide one SCART cable with the unit and I simply cut off one end and soldered on a DB-23. With the current exchange rate it's going to end up at roughly the same price as Jens' unit with the added bonus that it will work with other classic systems (I also use it with an Apple IIGS - one of the few converters that gives satisfactory results with those machines). Steve -- From wgungfu at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 12:34:53 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:34:53 -0600 Subject: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC Message-ID: <2c768b1e0909161034g7a204ec0y1bb06c50d309159c@mail.gmail.com> Just a heads up for anyone that might be interested, I'll be giving a speech at the Emergency Chicagoland Commodore Convention on Sept. 26th. The material is based on the latest research by myself and Curt regarding the previously muddled claims and relationship between between Atari Inc. and Amiga, Amiga and Commodore, and Commodore/Amiga and Atari Corp/Tramiel. I'll be giving a glimpse in to our research and setting the record straight on a lot of the issues, as well as covering some material related to the split and sale of Atari Inc. itself. Visit the ECCC site for more info on the show, I believe my talk starts around 3:30pm. http://starbase.globalpc.net/eccc/ Marty From phil at ultimate.com Wed Sep 16 14:46:29 2009 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cardreader "DEC CR10" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200909161946.n8GJkTfQ035798@ultimate.com> % grep CR10 ~www/ult/phil/pdp10/10periphs BA10 hard copy control for CR10, LP10, XY10 CR10A card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 1000CPM 60Hz power CR10B card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 830CPM 50Hz power CR10E card reader 1200CPM CR10F table top card reader 300CPM (the above file is web visible at http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/10periphs) From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 14:57:08 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 15:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <4AB0AEEF.13255.12CCED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <007101ca3243$c25ddf50$47199df0$@com>, <4AB027B5.24416.6920143@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AB0AEEF.13255.12CCED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Sep 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Sep 2009 at 7:21, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I don't think one can just take the same timing that was read >> and write the bits back. Normally the controller adds some preemphasis >> and deemphasis to make the timing right for the reads. For the M2FM, >> this would require a little experimenting. >> I do think the CW could do the job though. >> What sample frequencies does it have? > > The raw frequencies are selectable from 14,161, 28.322 and 56.644 > MHz, but I believe that these are divided by 16 for the actual sample > rate. I think you can adjust the pre-scaler on the Mark IV version, unless I'm misreading the hardware docs. Steve -- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 17 09:20:39 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 07:20:39 -0700 Subject: 3 pin power cords In-Reply-To: <2645f9870909162113q4782c620u935e2255e5c9fa8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870909162113q4782c620u935e2255e5c9fa8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi It seems like there was some talk about the older 3 pin HP type connectors. I was at Halted jesterday and they had some NOS cords. These are the black plastic, not the grey rubber ones. As for the pin order, if looking at the pin end, I see, left to right, Ground on top, Neutral, Ground, Hot. They are asking $12.50 each. Just thought I'd pass it on for those in the South SF bay area. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Sep 17 10:14:28 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 08:14:28 -0700 Subject: TU56 fun and games Message-ID: We've been working to connect a second TU56 to our PDP-8/e and TC08. Unfortunately, our second TU56 had been configured for a TD8-E. The good news is that we surmounted our lack of a M531 negative bus converter module - by making our own. The module worked partially (it did boot OS/8) on its first test, but further testing discovered one missing trace, which was easily ECO'ed. With that in place, I discovered that our second TU56 had a defective M040, and fortunately we did have a spare to replace that. Each TU56 runs appropriate MAINDECs successfully. The bad news is that we still don't have two TU56s on our PDP-8/e. The extant TU56 and TC08 documentation (thanks, Bitsavers!) aren't particularly clear on this, but the cable that connects the TC08 to a TU56 is NOT the same cable to 'daisy-chain' to another TU56. The TC08-TU56 cable, 70-6223, has several crossovers on the paddles - it's not A to A, B to B, etc. The TC08 documentation *hints* at that, but only states that connecting two TU56s requires a "M908 to M908" cable. The M908 is the paddle itself. There are at least two cables made using those paddles. The correct one to connect two TU56 drives (and I finally thought to confirm this in the FSTM) is a BC02X, which comes in various lengths. It, too, has M908 ends, but the wiring is direct, A to A, etc. (except for four low-value resistors in four of the lines). We do have a 70-6223, and I suppose we could rewire it - but I really really hate to do things like that. Frankly, I'd rather make some M908s. But I'd really like to find an original BC02X, if anyone has a spare in any length. Please contact me privately if you have one and would be interested in making a deal. Hey, we have some more M531 replicas.... Thanks -- Ian Ian King, Vintage Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum A project of Vulcan, Inc. http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Sep 17 10:57:45 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 08:57:45 -0700 Subject: VCF on Ars Technica Message-ID: <694EE69A-F381-4DC9-B146-5C343846CA94@shiresoft.com> Hi, I just saw this article on Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/09/a-trip-down-memory-lane-and-beyond-at-vintage-computer-fest.ars ) seems like a good article with lots of pictures. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 17 11:43:43 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:43:43 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AB204CF.28112.54A4089@cclist.sydex.com> The owner has contacted me to tell me that no one's stepped up for this system yet. Hard to believe that there's no interest in one of these. --Chuck On 11 Sep 2009 at 13:00, cclist at sydex.com wrote: > Just passing this one on; if you need to contact the owner, his email > is: > > Resnickshardware [[at]] gmail.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- I have an old Burroughs B80 in a building I own. It seems to have > all the parts, there is a printer and some floppys. I am interested in > selling it to a collector perhaps, or a museum. Any idea what it's > worth? Or other ideas where I could sell or get rid of it? > > I'm located in NJ. > From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Sep 17 12:16:26 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:16:26 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: <4AB204CF.28112.54A4089@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> <4AB204CF.28112.54A4089@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AB26EEA.4080605@atarimuseum.com> Did anyone let Evan at MARCH know, seeing as its right in his backyard and they are always looking for hardware.... Chuck Guzis wrote: > The owner has contacted me to tell me that no one's stepped up for > this system yet. Hard to believe that there's no interest in one of > these. > > --Chuck > > On 11 Sep 2009 at 13:00, cclist at sydex.com wrote: > > >> Just passing this one on; if you need to contact the owner, his email >> is: >> >> Resnickshardware [[at]] gmail.com >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- I have an old Burroughs B80 in a building I own. It seems to have >> all the parts, there is a printer and some floppys. I am interested in >> selling it to a collector perhaps, or a museum. Any idea what it's >> worth? Or other ideas where I could sell or get rid of it? >> >> I'm located in NJ. >> >> > > > > From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 17 13:20:06 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:20:06 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: <4AB26EEA.4080605@atarimuseum.com> References: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> <4AB204CF.28112.54A4089@cclist.sydex.com> <4AB26EEA.4080605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4AB27DD6.5090700@snarc.net> We know, and I reposted to our list. But our club already has one and we only accept donations. We're not going to spend hundreds to buy a duplicate system, plus hundreds more to rent a truck, etc. > Did anyone let Evan at MARCH know, seeing as its right in his backyard > and they are always looking for hardware.... > > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The owner has contacted me to tell me that no one's stepped up for >> this system yet. Hard to believe that there's no interest in one of >> these. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Sep 17 15:21:53 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF on Ars Technica In-Reply-To: <694EE69A-F381-4DC9-B146-5C343846CA94@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <495643.94110.qm@web112207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> VCF 6.0 has also been featured in: http://www.fanboy.com/2009/09/vintage-computer-fest-6.html http://www.antiboredomteam.com/checkitout/vintage-computer-festival-in-wall-nj/ --- On Thu, 9/17/09, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > From: Guy Sotomayor > Subject: VCF on Ars Technica > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, September 17, 2009, 11:57 AM > Hi, > > I just saw this article on Ars Technica (http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/09/a-trip-down-memory-lane-and-beyond-at-vintage-computer-fest.ars) > seems like a good article with lots of pictures. > > TTFN - Guy > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 17 15:37:22 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:37:22 -0400 Subject: Olivetti Underwood 288 adding machines Message-ID: <200909171637.23094.pat@computer-refuge.org> I have a few electro-mechanical Olivetti Underwood 288 adding machines that a friend rescued from a dumpster, which look like they're in great shape (possibly never used). I haven't tried plugging them in yet, and can't promise that they work If you're interested in one or all three, let me know. I can post a picture if you're interested. From the instruction card that is with them, they appear to be from about 1960. They're about the size of a desktop calculator. I'm in West Lafayette, IN, USA. They're fairly small, so I should be able to ship them anywhere in the US without much trouble. Sorry, but no international shipping. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 17 15:40:30 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Olivetti Underwood 288 adding machines In-Reply-To: <200909171637.23094.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200909171637.23094.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I have a few electro-mechanical Olivetti Underwood 288 adding machines > that a friend rescued from a dumpster, which look like they're in great > shape (possibly never used). I haven't tried plugging them in yet, and > can't promise that they work > > If you're interested in one or all three, let me know. I can post a > picture if you're interested. From the instruction card that is with > them, they appear to be from about 1960. They're about the size of a > desktop calculator. Yes, please put some pics up somewhere. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 17 16:31:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:31:37 -0700 Subject: Tek 4114 Termianl Available Message-ID: <4AB24849.23724.651D44E@cclist.sydex.com> This was recently posted to the VCF: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=17311 For whatever it's worth. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 18:09:21 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:09:21 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: <4AB204CF.28112.54A4089@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> <4AB204CF.28112.54A4089@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The owner has contacted me to tell me that no one's stepped up for > this system yet. ?Hard to believe that there's no interest in one of > these. I am swamped, otherwise I would think about it. I wonder how long he could wait. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 18:10:48 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:10:48 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: <4AB204CF.28112.54A4089@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> <4AB204CF.28112.54A4089@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The owner has contacted me to tell me that no one's stepped up for > this system yet. ?Hard to believe that there's no interest in one of > these. >... >> --- I have an old Burroughs B80 in a building I own. It seems to have >> all the parts, there is a printer and some floppys. Someone ought to see about getting the floppies. -- Will From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Sep 18 00:20:12 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:20:12 -0700 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The 8mb Primary HDD (if I am remembering correctly) has a SASI interface to SA1000 bridge board and the HD was a SA1000 interface drive, the 4mb and 8mb used 8" HDD's, the 5, 10 and 15 used MFM drives, with a SASI? to MFM bridgeboard. I used to have a model-16 with Xenix with a 4MB and 8MB HDD On 9/15/09 8:35 AM, "dwight elvey" wrote: > > Hi > I had a similar problem for my Olivetti M20 ( Z8000 based ). > I think it was Tony that pointed out that the TRS80 5Meg hard > disk drive contained an almost identical controller to the SA1000. > For the interface card, I wired up my own on a wire wrap board. > I removed the original drive and put in a ST251 that has a similar > sector/head to what I needed for the M20. > I did have to make minor modifications to the software to use > the auto stepping timing rather than the 10ms steps that the > original Olivetti drive expected. Other than that it worked fine. > How is the memory mapped in the S8000? The Olivetti has one 64K map > that Data and the instruction map to two different physical > memory locations. This seems to be required for the implementation > of CPM-8000 that I have running on the M20. > Dwight > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 16:13:40 +0200 >> From: lehmann at ans-netz.de >> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Zilog System 8000 >> >> Hi, >> >> its me and my S8000 again ;) >> >> One year ago I managed to get my hands on a S8000 which was in a kinda >> bad shape. I made the repairs I was able to do (fixed all 3 PSUs, build a >> complete new frontpanel, fixed cut wires). But I'm still looking for >> parts which are missing in that sytem: >> >> - harddisk >> - a harddisk with a SA1000 interface as well as a so called "FINCH >> adapter board" used by Zilog to attach this harddisk to the WDC >> controler. It was probably called "FINCH" because the shipped SA1000 >> harddisk was probably a CDC 9410 Finch, 8", 32MB harddisk. Some >> websites lists the 9410 drive as a SMD drive so I'm not sure about >> this. >> - a harddisk with a SMD interface - but then I would also need the SMD >> interface adaptor for the S8000 >> - there was also a "mini-WDC" adapter which implemented a ST506 interface >> for this I would have harddisks... This was used only in later S8000 >> Plus models. >> >> - tape drive >> - the original one was probably a DEI drive. It should have been a >> QIC-02/36 type with four tracks and a fixed head (not like the 60MB >> drives). >> >> - tape cartridges >> - still looking for the diagnostic and the OS cartridges.... >> >> - any other hardware ;) >> - Paxton Hoag responded 2008 on the list that he saved a whole set of >> S8000 boards when the original machine went to scrap - but >> unfortunally he never responded back lately :( >> >> If someone is interested in pics of my S8000 - they can be found here: >> http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000 >> >> -- >> Oliver Lehmann >> http://www.pofo.de/ >> http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ > _________________________________________________________________ > Bing brings you health info from trusted sources. > http://www.bing.com/search?q=pet+allergy&form=MHEINA&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MHE > INA_Health_Health_PetAllergy_1x1 From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Thu Sep 17 05:17:51 2009 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:17:51 +1000 Subject: Cardreader "DEC CR10" In-Reply-To: <200909161946.n8GJkTfQ035798@ultimate.com> References: <200909161946.n8GJkTfQ035798@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <5E49CA92-2244-4344-A1C7-3C9277F419AB@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 17/09/2009, at 5:46 AM, Phil Budne wrote: > > % grep CR10 ~www/ult/phil/pdp10/10periphs > BA10 hard copy control for CR10, LP10, XY10 > CR10A card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 1000CPM 60Hz power > CR10B card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 830CPM 50Hz power > CR10E card reader 1200CPM > CR10F table top card reader 300CPM > > (the above file is web visible at http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/10periphs > ) Looking at the CR10A and CR10B the ratio of CPM to power Hz is about the same. Does this mean that those of us who had cards read in 50Hz countries were being ripped off :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From ronan.scaife at dcu.ie Thu Sep 17 05:40:59 2009 From: ronan.scaife at dcu.ie (Ronan Scaife) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 11:40:59 +0100 Subject: wanted: teletype m43 paper tape schematics Message-ID: <4AB2123B.2020404@dcu.ie> Dear all, we are trying to get an ASR43 paper tape unit back to running condition. The front panel punch advance button now works, punching sprocket holes. This seems to have been a problem with the connector to the circuit board, and switching the pulley from 60Hz to 50Hz. I now really need access to schematics for the circuitry to try to work out the problems with the reader, which will not advance. A scan or purchase would be acceptable. Best Wishes, Ronan Scaife, DCU, Dublin, Ireland -- From ARFINK at stthomas.edu Thu Sep 17 12:28:48 2009 From: ARFINK at stthomas.edu (Fink, Anthony R.) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:28:48 -0500 Subject: For sale: HP 64110A "portable mainframe" In-Reply-To: <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76558@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu> References: <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76557@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu>, <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76558@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu> Message-ID: <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76559@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu> I have a nice HP 64000 series computer for sale. I rescued it from a surplus shop and fixed/cleaned it up a bit. I don't know much about it, and would like to pass it on to someone who does. Here is a copy of the post I left on the vintage-computer.com forums: For sale: An HP 64110A "portable mainframe" computer, used primarily for doing design work and in-circuit analysis and emulation. It's still considered to be a fairly competent diagnostic and development tool. Not to mention it looks awesome. This thing has been tested by me to the best of my ability and seems to be in full working order, but it's huge and I really am probably never going to use it to it's full potential. It comes with the optional "backpack" pouch attached to the top of the unit. It also comes with a large amount of cables and probes of various kinds. It has 5 different "pods" which can plug into the back of the unit. I am not familiar enough with this computer to be able to say what all the cards inside of it do. It also comes with a number of floppy disks, all of which work and have data on them. I am fairly sure some disks needed for doing compiling/text editing/terminal use are missing. However the boot disks and timing disks are there and work. If you know what you're looking for and can direct me, I'll be happy to do whatever inspections/photo taking you need. The machine does have a few small defects which I will list here: -The plastic screen cover has gotten a little bit discolored/foggy in one corner, which makes the screen look slightly blurry, but in my experience the screen is still very readable. -the keyboard hinge has come slightly loose on one side, but generally this is not a problem when operating on a table or in the "upright" mode standing on the floor -a couple of keys are slightly gummy in operation, and a good cleaning should fix this -there are some fairly normal scratches/scuffs on the case, probably because this thing is heavy and some engineer many years ago was forced to drag it across the floor. -and lastly, I haven't taken the time to thoroughly clean the thing, so it's fairly dusty inside I am looking for a some things I can get in trade for this beast: -A compact flash drive card for Apple II (CFFA, etc.) -Other Apple II things, especially IIgs stuff -Tandy model T things (ROMBO, NadsBox, TPDD 1 or 2) -Neo Geo MVS hardware (kinda a long shot, but hey) -what have you, just ask if I'm interested I would gladly trade this whole setup for a MicroDrive card for Apple IIgs. I accept PayPal if you aren't interested in trading. For people making offers, I am thinking somewhere in the price range of... a MicroDrive card. So $150? Let me know if you think I'm way off. One final thing- this beast is very heavy. You'll be paying shipping, which I have no clue how much it'd be because I'm not exactly sure how much this thing weighs. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=17278 http://picasaweb.google.com/arf.at.sjv/HP64110APortableMainframe# If interested, email me: arfink (at) stthomas.edu or send me a PM via the vintage-computer.com forums. From vax at purdue.edu Thu Sep 17 21:57:34 2009 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 22:57:34 -0400 Subject: Olivetti Underwood 288 adding machines In-Reply-To: <200909171637.23094.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200909171637.23094.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200909172257.34182.vax@purdue.edu> On Thursday 17 September 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > If you're interested in one or all three, let me know. I can post a > picture if you're interested. From the instruction card that is with > them, they appear to be from about 1960. They're about the size of a > desktop calculator. It appears that I only have two. I have another similar adding machines, which I think I am going to keep. They don't quite work, but I think they just need to be cleaned and lubed up. I have some pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622276571533/ They smell a bit musty, but they looks like they're in good shape internally. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Sep 18 05:44:35 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:44:35 +0200 Subject: dlart dc319 Message-ID: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> hello everyone, I am looking for the data sheet of the dlart dc319.I did not find it ,I found only a few informations in micronote 33,and schematics using it in several cpus.If someone has the file or any pointer,I'll appreciate ?the purpose is to look what it really does and how,and the differences with standard dl11 devices. thanks very much ,best regards Alain Nierveze web:www.radio-astronomie.com email:nierveze at radio-astronomie.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 06:55:23 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 07:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For sale: HP 64110A "portable mainframe" In-Reply-To: <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76559@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu> References: <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76557@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu>, <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76558@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu> <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76559@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Sep 2009, Fink, Anthony R. wrote: > I have a nice HP 64000 series computer for sale. I rescued it from a > surplus shop and fixed/cleaned it up a bit. I don't know much about it, > and would like to pass it on to someone who does. Here is a copy of the > post I left on the vintage-computer.com forums: > > For sale: An HP 64110A "portable mainframe" computer, used primarily for > doing design work and in-circuit analysis and emulation. It's still > considered to be a fairly competent diagnostic and development tool. Not > to mention it looks awesome. That's the "portable" version of the HP64000 Development system. There are several HP64k enthusiasts on this list and hopefully they'll see this. I gave away all of my HP64k collection last year - no room. Steve -- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 18 11:47:31 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:47:31 -0600 Subject: Cardreader "DEC CR10" In-Reply-To: <5E49CA92-2244-4344-A1C7-3C9277F419AB@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <200909161946.n8GJkTfQ035798@ultimate.com> <5E49CA92-2244-4344-A1C7-3C9277F419AB@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <4AB3B9A3.4010407@jetnet.ab.ca> Huw Davies wrote: >> CR10A card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 1000CPM 60Hz power >> CR10B card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 830CPM 50Hz power > Looking at the CR10A and CR10B the ratio of CPM to power Hz is about the > same. Does this mean that those of us who had cards read in 50Hz > countries were being ripped off :-) Well it does take time to convert cards from 60Hz to 50Hz... Now if you bought 50Hz cards in the first place ... > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au > Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the > Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 12:19:16 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:19:16 -0400 Subject: dlart dc319 In-Reply-To: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:44 AM, nierveze wrote: > hello everyone, > I am looking for the data sheet of the dlart dc319.I did not find it ,I > found only a few informations in micronote 33,and schematics using it in > several cpus.If someone has the file or any pointer,I'll appreciate ?the > purpose is to look > what it really does and how,and the differences > with standard ?dl11 devices. If there isn't already a scan on the 'net, I think I picked up an original paper copy last weekend when I was loading my station wagon full of PDP-11s. I'll check the documentation stack this weekend. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 18 12:28:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:28:34 -0400 Subject: dlart dc319 In-Reply-To: References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> Message-ID: <93678A39-EC02-46B9-8A55-1A9C7298332C@neurotica.com> On Sep 18, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If there isn't already a scan on the 'net, I think I picked up an > original paper copy last weekend when I was loading my station wagon > full of PDP-11s. I'll check the documentation stack this weekend. Urrrrr? Tell us more! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 18 12:30:27 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:30:27 -0700 Subject: pdp8/e toggles / was dlart dc319 References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> Message-ID: <4AB3C3B3.A0E436@cs.ubc.ca> nierveze wrote: > > hello everyone, > I am looking for the data sheet of the dlart dc319.I did not find it ,I > found only a few informations in micronote 33,and schematics using it in > several cpus.If someone has the file or any pointer,I'll appreciate ?the > purpose is to look > what it really does and how,and the differences > with standard dl11 devices. > thanks very much ,best regards > > Alain Nierveze > > web:www.radio-astronomie.com > email:nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Recreating broken plastic toggles has been queried on the list many times, ran across this while perusing this fellow's pages. It's in french, but see the pictures about 3/4 of the way down the page: http://www.radio-astronomie.com/pdp8.htm From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Sep 18 12:40:19 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:40:19 +0100 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33482AC3-4492-4E7A-9076-3C7F770EE18D@microspot.co.uk> On 16 Sep 2009, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 07:16:48 -0700 > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > At 10:56 PM -0700 9/15/09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Classic Mac collecting really is dirt cheap except for the oddball >> exotic >> pieces (CC, TAM, TV). It's rewarding, too, what you can do with it; >> there's a >> lot of places blowing used and NOS stuff out by the cartload, and >> much of >> it is still really useful and practical for small servers, even a >> backup >> workstation. > > How hard/expensive is it to get NOS Apple Extended II ADB keyboards? > While I can't afford to right now, I really should invest in a > couple, as well as a couple USB-to-ADB converters. Once I finally > switched to Mac OS X I gave up on the ADB II Mouse, but I suspect I'd > be lost without my keyboard. I paid $160 new for it in January of > '97, and it has lasted through my 8500/180, G4/450, and is now on my > G5 2x2 (I hope to get a Mac Pro soon). Amazingly the letters are > intact, but the spacebar has groves worn in it. I still use one every day, only problem is the 'E' key keeps double typing, maybe I should clean it or like you, try to find an NOS one, needs to be a UK model though. > > Once I switch to the Mac Pro I'll have to decide if I setup a Classic > Mac to run a couple apps (there is no replacement for me for > ClarisDraw aka MacDraw), or if I run them under an emulator). I've > stayed at 10.4.11 so I can continue to run Classic. What do you need in MacDraw that is not in MacDraft or MacDraft PE (personal edition) ? I must declare an interest here as I maintain MacDraft and am a shareholder of the company which bought the source code of MacDraft from IDD about 15 years ago. Roger Holmes. Technical Director, Microspot Ltd. > > Zane > From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Sep 18 12:43:30 2009 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:43:30 -0700 Subject: dlart dc319 In-Reply-To: References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> Message-ID: Sorry, I've been asleep at the keyboard. See: John -- John A. Dundas III Director, IMSS Voice & Data Networks, Caltech Mail Code: 1-10, Pasadena, CA 91125 Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Sep 18 12:56:00 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:56:00 +0100 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B5073FF-3A92-4061-AA5C-5D28BC7DD6A9@microspot.co.uk> On 17 Sep 2009, at 16:15, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 11:31:20 -0700 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) > To: General at invalid.domain, "Discussion at invalid.domain":On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Message-ID: <4AB12EF8.1AA97C27 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> >> Once I switch to the Mac Pro I'll have to decide if I setup a Classic >> Mac to run a couple apps (there is no replacement for me for >> ClarisDraw aka MacDraw), or if I run them under an emulator). I've >> stayed at 10.4.11 so I can continue to run Classic. > > I'm actually still running native Classic for these sorts of > reasons. I must > try out Cameron's Classilla for an improved browser, but I've been > meaning to > ask here about ClarisDraw/MacDraw for awhile. > > I have hundreds of pages of reverse-engineered schematics of old > equipment, > drawn in ClarisWorks. It's my own 'symbol library' so I don't expect > to be able > to convert them easily to some common CAD schematic capture, but > does anyone > know of a conversion or upgrade path to pull these into the future (or > present), besides printing and scanning them? If you have a machine which still runs ClarisWorks, you should be able to save this data in MacDraw II format which MacDraft 5.5 can read and save. Possibly 5.6 too, but not 6.0, though that isn't released yet. There was just too much code to maintain for reading old files, and the alternative of using 5.5 (and 4.0 for REALLY old files) is still there if you can get access to a PPC/68k Mac. If you have used blends they won't come through, but schematics should be fine. From MacDraft you can save them as PDFs, which Illustrator will read if you can stand the price and the user interface. > > Alternatively, is the file format definition out there in public, so > I might > write a conversion program some day? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 13:11:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:11:35 -0400 Subject: dlart dc319 In-Reply-To: <93678A39-EC02-46B9-8A55-1A9C7298332C@neurotica.com> References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> <93678A39-EC02-46B9-8A55-1A9C7298332C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 18, 2009, at 1:19 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> If there isn't already a scan on the 'net, I think I picked up an >> original paper copy last weekend when I was loading my station wagon >> full of PDP-11s. ?I'll check the documentation stack this weekend. > > > ?Urrrrr? > > > ?Tell us more! I met up with another member of the list who wanted to find a home for the machines he used to use in a professional capacity - a PDT-11/150, an 11/03, a rack-mounted "naked" 11/03 (backplane and PSU bolted to a 19" aluminum plate), a "MicroPDP-11" (11/53 w/RD51 and RX50) running MicroRSX v3.0, plus a few terminals (VT100, VT320 and DECwriter IV) and docs+floppies to go with. My Saturn station wagon was filled to the scuppers (barely a slot at the top to see out the back window). I used to have a PDT-11/150 but sold it years ago to another listmember from Kentucky (not sure he's still a subscriber or not), so I was happy to get another one. I've never had a MicroPDP-11 (just MicroVAXen in BA-23s and older Qbus PDP-11s in BA-11s), so that one is going to be fun to play with. I've excavated an ST225 and an ST251-1, saved from Intel PCs, that have been on my shelf awaiting attachment to an RQDX3 - 20MB should be enough for RT-11, and 40MB should be enough for 2.11BSD. So that's the score. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 13:15:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:15:18 -0400 Subject: pdp8/e toggles / was dlart dc319 In-Reply-To: <4AB3C3B3.A0E436@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> <4AB3C3B3.A0E436@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Recreating broken plastic toggles has been queried on the list many times, ran > across this while perusing this fellow's pages. It's in french, but see the > pictures about 3/4 of the way down the page: > > ?http://www.radio-astronomie.com/pdp8.htm That looks very nice. I know people who cast plastic at home, but his results look amazingly clean. -ethan From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Sep 18 13:34:10 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:34:10 +0200 Subject: For sale: HP 64110A "portable mainframe" In-Reply-To: References: <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76557@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu>, <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76558@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu><26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76559@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu> Message-ID: <12327EB4612C47BEA5C9C156DA068112@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Steven Hirsch > Verzonden: vrijdag 18 september 2009 13:55 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Onderwerp: Re: For sale: HP 64110A "portable mainframe" > > On Thu, 17 Sep 2009, Fink, Anthony R. wrote: > > > I have a nice HP 64000 series computer for sale. I rescued > it from a > > surplus shop and fixed/cleaned it up a bit. I don't know much about > > it, and would like to pass it on to someone who does. Here > is a copy > > of the post I left on the vintage-computer.com forums: > > > > For sale: An HP 64110A "portable mainframe" computer, used > primarily > > for doing design work and in-circuit analysis and emulation. It's > > still considered to be a fairly competent diagnostic and > development > > tool. Not to mention it looks awesome. > > That's the "portable" version of the HP64000 Development > system. There are several HP64k enthusiasts on this list and > hopefully they'll see this. > I gave away all of my HP64k collection last year - no room. > > Steve > > > > -- Yep me, and others. And I'm living at the 'wrong' side of the big water :-( Shipping cost should kill us .. -Rik From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 18 13:46:42 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:46:42 -0600 Subject: For sale: HP 64110A "portable mainframe" In-Reply-To: <12327EB4612C47BEA5C9C156DA068112@xp1800> References: <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76557@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu>, <26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76558@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu><26DD436502777A48A6DF577AC2B3BD741F65D76559@UST-E2K7VS4.stthomas.edu> <12327EB4612C47BEA5C9C156DA068112@xp1800> Message-ID: <4AB3D592.80501@jetnet.ab.ca> Rik Bos wrote: > Yep me, and others. > And I'm living at the 'wrong' side of the big water :-( > Shipping cost should kill us .. One small ship both ways with all the big IRON for needed back on both sides of the pond - real cheap per lb. :) > -Rik > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 18 14:44:17 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:44:17 -0700 Subject: pdp8/e toggles / was dlart dc319 In-Reply-To: References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc>, <4AB3C3B3.A0E436@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: <4AB380A1.11406.B16163B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Sep 2009 at 14:15, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That looks very nice. I know people who cast plastic at home, but his > results look amazingly clean. That's because he's not casting, but rather using a polymer clay: http://www.artsncrafts-ideas.com/fimo-modelling-clay.php Cheers, Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Sep 18 14:45:25 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:45:25 +0200 Subject: pdp8/e toggles / was dlart dc319 In-Reply-To: References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> <4AB3C3B3.A0E436@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20090918194525.GA27215@Update.UU.SE> > > > > ?http://www.radio-astronomie.com/pdp8.htm > > That looks very nice. I know people who cast plastic at home, but his > results look amazingly clean. This was posted by the maker himself not very long ago, after which I bought all necessary material to do it myself. I guess I should get going before the clay dries up :) It has also been done for a straight eight, but I can't find the link now. /P From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Sep 18 15:05:35 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:05:35 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ Message-ID: <01CA3879.FCFFC7E0@MSE_D03> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 09:43:43 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Burroughs B80 in NJ >The owner has contacted me to tell me that no one's stepped up for >this system yet. Hard to believe that there's no interest in one of >these. >--Chuck ---- It'd be a shame to see it scrapped; it is a bit on the large and heavy side, but a fairly rare example of an unusual style/configuration. Wonder if it has a hard disk drive (14" 5MB platters) or line printer. But as mentioned elsewhere, the diskettes are perhaps even more important, depending on what's on 'em, and also any manuals. Is the one at MARCH actually running? I'm pretty sure I reformatted all my B80 disks and tossed my manuals long ago, but ya never know; I'll keep my eyes out. mike ********************************************************************************* On 11 Sep 2009 at 13:00, cclist at sydex.com wrote: > Just passing this one on; if you need to contact the owner, his email > is: > > Resnickshardware [[at]] gmail.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- I have an old Burroughs B80 in a building I own. It seems to have > all the parts, there is a printer and some floppys. I am interested in > selling it to a collector perhaps, or a museum. Any idea what it's > worth? Or other ideas where I could sell or get rid of it? > > I'm located in NJ. > From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 18 15:19:28 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:19:28 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: <01CA3879.FCFFC7E0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA3879.FCFFC7E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4AB3EB50.7040403@snarc.net> > > But as mentioned elsewhere, the diskettes are perhaps even more important, depending on what's on 'em, and also any manuals. > > Is the one at MARCH actually running? > We acquired it several months ago and haven't done anything other than clean the exterior. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 18 15:20:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:20:28 -0700 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: <01CA3879.FCFFC7E0@MSE_D03> References: <01CA3879.FCFFC7E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4AB3891C.24455.B37355B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Sep 2009 at 16:05, M H Stein wrote: >> It'd be a shame to see it scrapped; it is a bit on the large and heavy > side, but a fairly rare example of an unusual style/configuration. > Wonder if it has a hard disk drive (14" 5MB platters) or line printer. He says it's got the printer, but doesn't say anything about a hard disk. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Fri Sep 18 15:33:38 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:33:38 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AB3EEA2.5010308@snarc.net> > > I have an old Burroughs B80 in a building I own. It seems to have all the parts, there is a printer and some floppys. > Update .... he's donating it to MARCH in exchange for a tax receipt. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 18 15:40:33 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 13:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: <33482AC3-4492-4E7A-9076-3C7F770EE18D@microspot.co.uk> References: <33482AC3-4492-4E7A-9076-3C7F770EE18D@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Sep 2009, Roger Holmes wrote: >> Once I switch to the Mac Pro I'll have to decide if I setup a Classic >> Mac to run a couple apps (there is no replacement for me for >> ClarisDraw aka MacDraw), or if I run them under an emulator). I've >> stayed at 10.4.11 so I can continue to run Classic. > > What do you need in MacDraw that is not in MacDraft or MacDraft PE (personal > edition) ? I must declare an interest here as I maintain MacDraft and am a > shareholder of the company which bought the source code of MacDraft from IDD > about 15 years ago. I honestly don't know. I woulad have to demo MacDraft. One of my questions would be what file formats does it support? I'm not doing CAD work, I simply find that ClarisDraw does what I need, and I've been using it (and before it MacDraw II) for close to twenty years. My suspicion is that CAD software is better suited to what I need than something like Adobe Illustrator (which I have but don't like). Prior to MacDraw/ClarisDraw I would use DesignCAD on the PC. Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 15:56:34 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:56:34 -0400 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: <4AB3EEA2.5010308@snarc.net> References: <4AAA4A0B.21596.131B327@cclist.sydex.com> <4AB3EEA2.5010308@snarc.net> Message-ID: > Update .... he's donating it to MARCH in exchange for a tax receipt. MARCH is 501c(3)? -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 18 16:36:17 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 14:36:17 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 anecdote in Design News Message-ID: <4AB39AE1.19719.1B5938@cclist.sydex.com> One of the "Sherlock Ohms" series: http://tinyurl.com/mzro9b Cheers, Chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Sep 18 17:30:33 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:30:33 -0400 Subject: pdp8/e toggles In-Reply-To: <4AB380A1.11406.B16163B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc>, <4AB3C3B3.A0E436@cs.ubc.ca>, <4AB380A1.11406.B16163B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AB40A09.3080703@nktelco.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Sep 2009 at 14:15, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > That's because he's not casting, but rather using a polymer clay: > > http://www.artsncrafts-ideas.com/fimo-modelling-clay.php > > Cheers, > Chuck > > Are you familiar with this material and what his process might have been? Was the mold of the same material, do you think? -chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 17:42:59 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:42:59 -0400 Subject: QIC carts Message-ID: I have oodles of 1/4" QIC cartridges - the big ones, as used in old Sun, SGI, and other early workstations. Anyone need them? I do not, and I would rather not scrap them. Most are used, unknown condition. How about as many as I can stuff in a large USPS flat rate box for $20? Please reply off list. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 18 18:03:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:03:31 -0700 Subject: pdp8/e toggles In-Reply-To: <4AB40A09.3080703@nktelco.net> References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc>, <4AB380A1.11406.B16163B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AB40A09.3080703@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4AB3AF53.16120.6B36C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Sep 2009 at 18:30, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Are you familiar with this material and what his process might have > been? Was the mold of the same material, do you think? I don't know what he made the mold of, but anything, including plaster of Paris should work. I've never worked with Fimo, but I've done a few things with Sculpey; it's kind of porous, which makes me wonder how good it would be for a toggle switch handle. It might be better to try this with one of the two-part epoxy sculpting material, say Apoxie: http://avesstudio.com/Products/Apoxie_Sculpt/apoxie_sculpt.html Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 18 18:11:43 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:11:43 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 anecdote in Design News In-Reply-To: <4AB39AE1.19719.1B5938@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AB39AE1.19719.1B5938@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AB413AF.3060909@bitsavers.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > One of the "Sherlock Ohms" series: > > http://tinyurl.com/mzro9b > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > "The battery was, of course, an extremely expensive custom job requiring a service call. Which was all the incentive we needed to solder a few batteries together, solder wires to the ends, tape the whole thing with electrical tape, and connect that assemblage into the disk drive. It didn?t fit, so it hung over the side of the drive looking thoroughly disreputable. But it worked! This time, we didn?t try to hide our cleverness from the physics kids, so we only got our usual allotted time, but we felt very virtuous and superior. And a week or two later the service person replaced it with the real thing. But I?ve always wondered what he or she thought of our handiwork" --- They were REALLY lucky DEC didn't cancel their service contract. Can you imagine what an IBM or CDC FE would have done if he'd found something like that? From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 18:19:00 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 18:19:00 -0500 Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook user's guide online Message-ID: <51ea77730909181619g42819f71je28617d0fe035fd4@mail.gmail.com> After giving away that Sparcbook a couple weeks back, I've had a lot of requests for the spare manual. So I bumped it to the top of my scanning pile, and I am happy to present this OCR'd PDF of the Sparcbook 1 User's Guide. Feel free to upload it to your favorite document archive: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Tadpole -- jht From chd_1 at nktelco.net Fri Sep 18 18:20:05 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:20:05 -0400 Subject: pdp8/e toggles In-Reply-To: <4AB3AF53.16120.6B36C7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc>, <4AB380A1.11406.B16163B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AB40A09.3080703@nktelco.net> <4AB3AF53.16120.6B36C7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AB415A5.10905@nktelco.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Sep 2009 at 18:30, Charles H Dickman wrote: > > >> Are you familiar with this material and what his process might have >> been? Was the mold of the same material, do you think? >> > > I don't know what he made the mold of, but anything, including > plaster of Paris should work. I've never worked with Fimo, but I've > done a few things with Sculpey; it's kind of porous, which makes me > wonder how good it would be for a toggle switch handle. > > It might be better to try this with one of the two-part epoxy > sculpting material, say Apoxie: > > http://avesstudio.com/Products/Apoxie_Sculpt/apoxie_sculpt.html > > It seems like the mold would have to be rigid (plaster of Paris, as you suggest) since there was a need to force the clay into it, in contrast to using something like silicone rubber as a mold and then pouring a liquid polymer into it. Thanks, -chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Sep 18 18:22:33 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:22:33 -0400 Subject: N8VEM S-100 backplanes and S-100 prototyping boards Message-ID: Hi All, I am trying to arrange a quantity buy of N8VEM S-100 backplanes and/or S-100 prototyping boards. The main goal is to lower unit prices by increasing the quantity. If I can get the minimum quantity of the backplanes up to 10 and/or the prototyping boards to 20, I think I can offer either for $20 a PCB, maybe less. Of course larger quantity makes it easier to lower the price even more. So far, I have 4 backplanes and 8 prototyping boards reserved. There has been a few additions lately and it looks like it might be possible to pull this off. If you are interested please send me an email. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Sep 18 18:30:09 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:30:09 -0400 Subject: pdp8/e toggles In-Reply-To: <4AB3AF53.16120.6B36C7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc>, <4AB380A1.11406.B16163B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AB40A09.3080703@nktelco.net> <4AB3AF53.16120.6B36C7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4AB41801.8000906@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It might be better to try this with one of the two-part epoxy > sculpting material, say Apoxie: > > http://avesstudio.com/Products/Apoxie_Sculpt/apoxie_sculpt.html > You can also try Shapelock. This only requires hot water(boiling hot) to soften the plastic pellets which you can mold into any shape. I use it to build custom mechanical parts for my robots or pinball games, there's lots of uses for this. Once it's cooled, it's just as hard and rigid enough to also let you use a dremel or a CNC machine to further customize your parts. If you build a mold of the switch, say using a block of aluminum on a milling machine. You can then use a press to fabricate the switch handles with just a ball of molten shapelock plastic. http://shapelock.com/ =Dan From brain at jbrain.com Fri Sep 18 19:00:45 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:00:45 -0500 Subject: N8VEM S-100 backplanes and S-100 prototyping boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi All, > > > > I am trying to arrange a quantity buy of N8VEM S-100 backplanes and/or S-100 > prototyping boards. The main goal is to lower unit prices by increasing the > quantity. > Is there any way you could send me the gerbers as a couple of ZIP files? I'd be happy to ask my board house to quote the boards and see if they can do a better price. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 20:07:33 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:07:33 -0400 Subject: N8VEM S-100 backplanes and S-100 prototyping boards In-Reply-To: <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com> References: <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Is there any way you could send me the gerbers as a couple of ZIP files? > ?I'd be happy to ask my board house to quote the boards and see if they can > do a better price. Hi, Jim, I'm working on an AT89S51 design with a friend (he teaches electronics and he wants a training board that can drive LEDs and relays, so I'm helping him with something out of EagleCAD). Is your board house good for a short run of a 3"x4" 2-sided board, no exceptional design rules? I'm thinking sample quantities for a first go - somewhere from 1 to 4 or 5 boards, depending on cost. Oh... it's all through-hole, no SMT (89S51 in PLCC socket, ULN2001, 74HC541, 1/4W resistors, 7805 PSU, 74HC14 for 60Hz tick from AC input...) If your board house is better at larger runs than protoytpe runs, I'd appreciate any recommendation on a proto house. I haven't ordered any PCBs in over 5 years, so I'm out of touch on places right now. Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 20:12:05 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:12:05 -0400 Subject: N8VEM S-100 backplanes and S-100 prototyping boards In-Reply-To: References: <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm working on an AT89S51 design with a friend... Sorry, folks. That was meant to be off-list. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 18 22:32:24 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:32:24 -0400 Subject: N8VEM S-100 backplanes and S-100 prototyping boards In-Reply-To: <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com> References: <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <1CF2C6B9-AA4D-4146-A864-7402DFBC740F@neurotica.com> On Sep 18, 2009, at 8:00 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >> I am trying to arrange a quantity buy of N8VEM S-100 backplanes >> and/or S-100 >> prototyping boards. The main goal is to lower unit prices by >> increasing the >> quantity. > > Is there any way you could send me the gerbers as a couple of ZIP > files? I'd be happy to ask my board house to quote the boards and > see if they can do a better price. Your board house? Is this one with which you're affiliated, or one you use a lot? Please tell us more. I use 4pcb.com, and they're good, but not cheap (enough). I use Gerber photoplotter and Excellon drill files, and usually 2-layer boards. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 18 23:21:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 21:21:22 -0700 Subject: N8VEM S-100 backplanes and S-100 prototyping boards In-Reply-To: <1CF2C6B9-AA4D-4146-A864-7402DFBC740F@neurotica.com> References: , <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com>, <1CF2C6B9-AA4D-4146-A864-7402DFBC740F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AB3F9D2.10821.18E3671@cclist.sydex.com> On that subject, has anyone sent any PCB work to Furturlec in Thailand? Results? Value? Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Fri Sep 18 23:37:54 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:37:54 -0500 Subject: N8VEM S-100 backplanes and S-100 prototyping boards In-Reply-To: <1CF2C6B9-AA4D-4146-A864-7402DFBC740F@neurotica.com> References: <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com> <1CF2C6B9-AA4D-4146-A864-7402DFBC740F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4AB46022.3060709@jbrain.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 18, 2009, at 8:00 PM, Jim Brain wrote: >>> I am trying to arrange a quantity buy of N8VEM S-100 backplanes >>> and/or S-100 >>> prototyping boards. The main goal is to lower unit prices by >>> increasing the >>> quantity. >> >> Is there any way you could send me the gerbers as a couple of ZIP >> files? I'd be happy to ask my board house to quote the boards and >> see if they can do a better price. > > Your board house? Is this one with which you're affiliated, or one > you use a lot? Please tell us more. I use 4pcb.com, and they're > good, but not cheap (enough). I use Gerber photoplotter and Excellon > drill files, and usually 2-layer boards. > > -Dave > My only affiliation is as a satisfied customer. ourpcb.com. I just thought I'd get his board quoted, I figured it can't hurt. I've run about 1000 boards through them so far, with great results. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Sat Sep 19 00:01:25 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 00:01:25 -0500 Subject: N8VEM S-100 backplanes and S-100 prototyping boards In-Reply-To: References: <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4AB465A5.5080704@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > >> Is there any way you could send me the gerbers as a couple of ZIP files? >> I'd be happy to ask my board house to quote the boards and see if they can >> do a better price. >> > > Hi, Jim, > > I'm working on an AT89S51 design with a friend (he teaches electronics > and he wants a training board that can drive LEDs and relays, so I'm > helping him with something out of EagleCAD). Is your board house good > for a short run of a 3"x4" 2-sided board, no exceptional design rules? > I'm thinking sample quantities for a first go - somewhere from 1 to 4 > or 5 boards, depending on cost. Oh... it's all through-hole, no SMT > (89S51 in PLCC socket, ULN2001, 74HC541, 1/4W resistors, 7805 PSU, > 74HC14 for 60Hz tick from AC input...) > > If your board house is better at larger runs than protoytpe runs, I'd > appreciate any recommendation on a proto house. I haven't ordered any > PCBs in over 5 years, so I'm out of touch on places right now. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > I know you meant this off list, but it seems relevant to reply on list. Quite frankly, for through hole stuff, I'd be surprised if any proto-house does a bad job, so I'd get a few quotes and go with the best offer. If you want a reference, I know some use 4pcb.com (http://www.4pcb.com/instant_quote/), and I can recommend OurPCB (www.ourpcb.com). In the quick quotes I ran, it looked like $1.50/sq in was pretty std across the board. I have not used Sunstone (https://www.sunstone.com/quoteValueProto.aspx), but I've heard good things there as well. If you have a couple designs you would like to run, you can do better on per-board pricing by doing panel purchases. I know silvercircuits.com used to offer a 2 8x10 panl services without silk or soldermask for $78.00, and I usually fit 4 or 5 designs, 4 board yield at that rate. Thus, I got 16-20 boards for ~ $5.00/board (including shipping and the upcharges for adding designs to the panel). However, once you get past a nominal quantity of boards, I'd recommend doing a prod run. You have more options, and places like OurPCB can run a 3x4 for about $2.00 a board with a $50.00 setup. By the time you pay for shipping, you're probably at 65-70 dollars for a dozen boards, but later runs incur no setup, just shipping. OurPCB is in China, and boards come in 10 business days for me, 5 if I pay a premium. Nowadays, I don't even run a prototype. I just do a prod run after a good desk check of the design. Even if the boards are not perfect and I decide to respin, they are often useful, and the money is easily recouped. For instance, this Spring, we ran the 64NIC+ (100 units). After I got the first boards manually assembled, I found a few bugs in the design, so we decided to respin. However, since the 64NIC+ includes all circuitry for a std C64/C128 cartridge (EPROM socket and switches/jumpers), the 100 PCBs can still be used as regular game carts without any mods, and it's trivial to mod them to fix the bugs. In short, don't automatically shy away from a prod run just because you have low quantities. It may actually be cheaper to do it over the proto-run. I also use OurPCB for assembly, and they're a good deal at $0.0178/pad assembly cost. I quoted Sierra Circuits in the states on the same job, and they were 2.5X for the mylar stencils, 8x for the bare boards, and 3-5X on assembly. The latter two stump me, as I know much of PCB fabrication and SMT assembly is automated. Yes, it's not USA. I'd be willing to pay a price premium for US work, but 150% or so, not 500-900%. At the latter rate, I simply cannot afford to create products for a small niche market like the CBM space. I can't speak ill of any other companies, but I've been very impressed with OurPCB's willingness to work with me on the small orders. They've been very good at assembly, and very communicative. If you're a night owl like myself, you can get real-time feedback via email or Skype with them (they are 11 hours ahead of me, so they are starting their day at 7PM local, as I recall. Still, I can make fast changes from 7PM to 2AM, when I finally pack it in) Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Sat Sep 19 00:07:27 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 00:07:27 -0500 Subject: PCB Panelization Message-ID: <4AB4670F.3030104@jbrain.com> Just a note that if you want to create PCB Panels yourself and save a bit of money, I suggest you load GerbMerge (http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~steriana/Python/gerbmerge/) somewhere and use it. It takes std Gerber files as input and will panelize multiple designs. I can vouch that it works well. If you do use it, I would set the design spacing to 4mil or so and ask the PCB house to do a 'V-groove" on the cut lines. It makes for easy separation. As well, if you do decide to have assmebly done, you can pay for 1 stencil instead of multiple. Here's an example: http://www.jbrain.com/2009/07/15/rom-el-test-boards/ In this one, I tried something different with the breakaways, but I would recommend V-grooves over the idea this picture shows. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Sep 19 01:16:03 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 23:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unisys B 39 Workstation (Convergent NGEN, CTOS, BTOS) on eBay Message-ID: <229003.2369.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300347270262 These ran an early message-based microkernal OS with transparent peer-to-peer networking, quite advanced for the mid-1980s, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_Technologies_Operating_System --Bill From phil at ultimate.com Fri Sep 18 10:51:56 2009 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 11:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Cardreader "DEC CR10" In-Reply-To: <5E49CA92-2244-4344-A1C7-3C9277F419AB@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <200909181551.n8IFpuRl076912@ultimate.com> > From: Huw Davies > On 17/09/2009, at 5:46 AM, Phil Budne wrote: > > % grep CR10 ~www/ult/phil/pdp10/10periphs > > BA10 hard copy control for CR10, LP10, XY10 > > CR10A card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 1000CPM 60Hz power > > CR10B card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 830CPM 50Hz power > > CR10E card reader 1200CPM > > CR10F table top card reader 300CPM > > > > (the above file is web visible at http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/10periphs > > ) > > Looking at the CR10A and CR10B the ratio of CPM to power Hz is about > the same. Does this mean that those of us who had cards read in 50Hz > countries were being ripped off :-) Both models read 16.6 cards per jiffy therefore time just runs slower in 50Hz countries! From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Sep 18 13:00:43 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 20:00:43 +0200 Subject: dlart dc319 References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> Message-ID: <001e01ca3889$f7f0aa20$04000005@pc> hello Ethan ,no I found nothing at all on the net ,so I'll appreciate a scan (picture or pdf format) of what you have thanks ,best regards alain ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: vendredi 18 septembre 2009 19:19 Subject: Re: dlart dc319 On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 6:44 AM, nierveze wrote: > hello everyone, > I am looking for the data sheet of the dlart dc319.I did not find it ,I > found only a few informations in micronote 33,and schematics using it in > several cpus.If someone has the file or any pointer,I'll appreciate ?the > purpose is to look > what it really does and how,and the differences > with standard dl11 devices. If there isn't already a scan on the 'net, I think I picked up an original paper copy last weekend when I was loading my station wagon full of PDP-11s. I'll check the documentation stack this weekend. -ethan From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 18 13:15:03 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 11:15:03 -0700 Subject: pdp8/e toggles / was dlart dc319 In-Reply-To: <4AB3C3B3.A0E436@cs.ubc.ca> References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> <4AB3C3B3.A0E436@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4AB3CE27.6030201@jwsss.com> this is the part about creating the toggles, maybe someone can translate the info better than google translate It manufactures key with the Fimo dough, armed with a small piece of nickel to increase their rigidity, after casting a survivor. . The axis is replaced by a small rod metal.On can mix different colors of Fimo dough to get the desired shade. The mold is made of Siligum Gedeo, pulp molding bi. Brent Hilpert wrote: > nierveze wrote: > >> >> web:www.radio-astronomie.com >> email:nierveze at radio-astronomie.com >> > > Recreating broken plastic toggles has been queried on the list many times, ran > across this while perusing this fellow's pages. It's in french, but see the > pictures about 3/4 of the way down the page: > > http://www.radio-astronomie.com/pdp8.htm > > > From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Sep 18 15:26:28 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 22:26:28 +0200 Subject: pdp8/e toggles / was dlart dc319 References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> <4AB3C3B3.A0E436@cs.ubc.ca> <4AB3CE27.6030201@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <008001ca389e$5108cd40$04000005@pc> hello ,the translation is perfect,siligum gedeo paste is a two components paste used by dentists . best regards to all a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim s" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: vendredi 18 septembre 2009 20:15 Subject: Re: pdp8/e toggles / was dlart dc319 > this is the part about creating the toggles, maybe someone can translate > the info better than google translate > > It manufactures key with the Fimo dough, armed with a small piece of > nickel to increase their rigidity, after casting a survivor. . > > The axis is replaced by a small rod metal.On can mix different colors of > Fimo dough to get the desired shade. > > The mold is made of Siligum Gedeo, pulp molding bi. > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > nierveze wrote: > > > >> > >> web:www.radio-astronomie.com > >> email:nierveze at radio-astronomie.com > >> > > > > Recreating broken plastic toggles has been queried on the list many times, ran > > across this while perusing this fellow's pages. It's in french, but see the > > pictures about 3/4 of the way down the page: > > > > http://www.radio-astronomie.com/pdp8.htm > > > > > > > From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Sep 18 15:36:25 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 22:36:25 +0200 Subject: dlart dc319 References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc> Message-ID: <009c01ca389f$b468c100$04000005@pc> hello ,thanks very much ,it is all that I needed,I am looking now for dlarts circuits...difficult to find . best regards ----- Original Message ----- From: "John A. Dundas III" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: vendredi 18 septembre 2009 19:43 Subject: Re: dlart dc319 > Sorry, I've been asleep at the keyboard. See: > > Docs/PDP-11/Unibus/ed-23181-10_A1b.pdf> > > John > -- > John A. Dundas III > Director, IMSS Voice & Data Networks, Caltech > Mail Code: 1-10, Pasadena, CA 91125 > Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 > From jws at jwsss.com Fri Sep 18 19:55:27 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 17:55:27 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 anecdote in Design News In-Reply-To: <4AB413AF.3060909@bitsavers.org> References: <4AB39AE1.19719.1B5938@cclist.sydex.com> <4AB413AF.3060909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AB42BFF.1090908@jwsss.com> > They were REALLY lucky DEC didn't cancel their service contract. Can > you imagine what > an IBM or CDC FE would have done if he'd found something like that? My buddy, the other "Al" who I have known for 35 years started out helping at a college which had a 1443 printer attached to some sort of larger machine (I think a System 3, but don't hold me to that). His sport with the IBM CE was finding where the speed configuration was set and tweaking it between PM calls. Nothing was ever said, but the "adjustments" were always removed, and frequently bypasses would be added to make the changes not work. So any adjustments were a game of cat and mouse with the CE and nothing was said. The UMR 360/50 was frequently adjusted by local staff as needed, but was serviced up to the end of the service life of the machine when IBM donated a large amount of new gear to the school to replace it. It was unique in that it was purchased outright by the school, rather than leasing. Also had an IBM approved custom channel interface to a Nova, though very little was done with it. Jim From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Sep 19 05:11:00 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:11:00 +0100 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 Sep 2009, at 02:12, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 17 > From: "Zane H. Healy" > >>> Once I switch to the Mac Pro I'll have to decide if I setup a >>> Classic >>> Mac to run a couple apps (there is no replacement for me for >>> ClarisDraw aka MacDraw), or if I run them under an emulator). I've >>> stayed at 10.4.11 so I can continue to run Classic. >> >> What do you need in MacDraw that is not in MacDraft or MacDraft PE >> (personal >> edition) ? I must declare an interest here as I maintain MacDraft >> and am a >> shareholder of the company which bought the source code of MacDraft >> from IDD >> about 15 years ago. > > I honestly don't know. I woulad have to demo MacDraft. If you want to, there are demos free to download from www.microspot.co.uk . Look for the 'Download a demo' button on the individual product pages. The P.E. version is restricted to 17" x 17", no layers, no AutoCAD file formats, reports, dimensions cannot be linked and a few other minor things. Both versions work to scale, but it defaults to 1:1 scale. You can of course zoom in and out irrespective of the printing scale. As you were a MacDraw user, I think you will be at home with the user interface once you get the idea of multiple tools in a pop-up menu in a single tool icon in the tool palette. > One of my questions > would be what file formats does it support? The current version reads from MacDraw II, DWG (not PE vsn) and exports to PDF, PICT, various pixel map formats (such as JPEG) and DXF (not PE and a bit limited functionality). The old 5.5 could also read from Dream and write to enhanced PICT (with embedded PostScript). > I'm not doing CAD work, I > simply find that ClarisDraw does what I need, and I've been using it > (and > before it MacDraw II) for close to twenty years. > > My suspicion is that CAD software is better suited to what I need than > something like Adobe Illustrator (which I have but don't like). > Prior to > MacDraw/ClarisDraw I would use DesignCAD on the PC. I don't think the CAD aspects of MacDraft get in the way of use for general drawing but of course I don't have an objective view of my own work. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Sep 19 10:39:45 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:39:45 +0200 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20090915161340.292588aa.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090915161340.292588aa.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20090919173945.f3c6710a.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > - tape drive > - the original one was probably a DEI drive. It should have been a > QIC-02/36 type with four tracks and a fixed head (not like the 60MB > drives). I now got parts of the original tape drive. A DEI. MN is 3447-44ABCDEF-S2 and PN is 301091. Anyone knows something about that drive? The motor is probably broken. it is a Astro Mec Motors Inc. P/N C66-24?? (No idea the label is partly removed) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Sep 19 11:52:25 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 09:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cheap if a little rough looking HP 9825... In-Reply-To: <1CF2C6B9-AA4D-4146-A864-7402DFBC740F@neurotica.com> References: <4AB41F2D.5060708@jbrain.com> <1CF2C6B9-AA4D-4146-A864-7402DFBC740F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=70-536-060&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50¤tPageIndex=0&searchNAP=On Peter Wallace From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 19 12:01:35 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 17:01:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e0909161034g7a204ec0y1bb06c50d309159c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <551937.53182.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Is there any chance that your talk can be recorded and uploaded to the 'net for those of us that can't make the show? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 16/9/09, Martin Goldberg wrote: From: Martin Goldberg Subject: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Wednesday, 16 September, 2009, 6:34 PM Just a heads up for anyone that might be interested, I'll be giving a speech at the Emergency Chicagoland Commodore Convention on Sept. 26th. The material is based on the latest research by myself and Curt regarding the previously muddled claims and relationship between between Atari Inc. and Amiga, Amiga and Commodore, and Commodore/Amiga and Atari Corp/Tramiel. I'll be giving a glimpse in to our research and setting the record straight on a lot of the issues, as well as covering some material related to the split and sale of Atari Inc. itself. Visit the ECCC site for more info on the show, I believe my talk starts around 3:30pm. http://starbase.globalpc.net/eccc/ Marty From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Sep 19 12:15:27 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:15:27 +0200 Subject: Zilog System 8000 In-Reply-To: <20090919173945.f3c6710a.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090915161340.292588aa.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20090919173945.f3c6710a.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20090919191527.4d4f2898.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > > - tape drive > > - the original one was probably a DEI drive. It should have been a > > QIC-02/36 type with four tracks and a fixed head (not like the 60MB > > drives). > > I now got parts of the original tape drive. A DEI. MN is 3447-44ABCDEF-S2 > and PN is 301091. Anyone knows something about that drive? The motor is > probably broken. it is a Astro Mec Motors Inc. P/N C66-24?? (No idea the > label is partly removed) It is now clear, that is is a tape drive like described in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dei/CMTD-3400S2_4tk6400bpi_1979.pdf Does someone still have such a DEI tape drive in a working condition? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 19 18:25:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 19:25:58 -0400 Subject: simple VM/370 and/or VM/ESA question Message-ID: <4BAE94EB-29AC-4BA8-A2C0-3B42F4277435@neurotica.com> Hey folks, I know there must be some VM types out there. Can someone tell me the name of the file, and the minidisk on which it resides, that contains the logo image that is displayed on terminals upon connecting to a VM/370 or VM/ESA system? I know where it lives in z/VM, but it doesn't seem to be in the same place in earlier generations, and literally hours of digging has turned up nothing. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sat Sep 19 21:57:26 2009 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 10:57:26 +0800 Subject: simple VM/370 and/or VM/ESA question In-Reply-To: <4BAE94EB-29AC-4BA8-A2C0-3B42F4277435@neurotica.com> References: <4BAE94EB-29AC-4BA8-A2C0-3B42F4277435@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I'm doing a bit of research on Mumps history and would be glad to know if anybody has copies of the following: 1. DSM-11 (PDP-11 of course) 2. VAX/DSM (Vax of course) 3. DSM for OpenVMS (Alpha) 4. DSM for Ultrix (MIPS) Thanks. /wai-sun From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sat Sep 19 22:27:22 2009 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 11:27:22 +0800 Subject: Mumps on DEC systems Message-ID: I'm doing a bit of research on Mumps history and would be glad to know if anybody has copies of the following: 1. DSM-11 (which OS did it ran on the -11?) 2. VAX/DSM 3. DSM for OpenVMS (Alpha) 4. DSM for Ultrix (MIPS or VAX?) If it can be run on SIMH, it'd be great!! Thanks. /wai-sun From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 19 22:41:54 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:41:54 -0700 Subject: Mumps on DEC systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:27 AM +0800 9/20/09, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >I'm doing a bit of research on Mumps history and would be glad to know if >anybody has copies of the following: > >1. DSM-11 (which OS did it ran on the -11?) I believe it was its own OS. >2. VAX/DSM >3. DSM for OpenVMS (Alpha) >4. DSM for Ultrix (MIPS or VAX?) > >If it can be run on SIMH, it'd be great!! Good luck. The only DSM-11 images I'm aware of are in a tape format for which to the best of my knowledge the software for reading was never released. The rest I've never seen any sign of. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 19 22:56:51 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:56:51 -0700 Subject: Classic Mac (was: Amiga video to component video or VGA?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On 19 Sep 2009, at 02:12, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >If you want to, there are demos free to download from >www.microspot.co.uk. Look for the 'Download a demo' button on the >individual product pages. I'll have to give the demo a try one of these days. >As you were a MacDraw user, I think you will be at home with the >user interface once you get the idea of multiple tools in a pop-up >menu in a single tool icon in the tool palette. I'll admit that as someone that has used MacDraw and ClarisDraw for as long as I have, I'm a bit resistant to change. So a somewhat familiar user interface would go a long way to getting me to make the move. Part of my problem is that anymore I only use ClarisDraw a few times a year, as such the familiar interface *really* helps. >I don't think the CAD aspects of MacDraft get in the way of use for >general drawing but of course I don't have an objective view of my >own work. Well... The truth is the more I thought about it, my "general drawing" tends to be a rather CAD like anyway. :-) Unless I'm doing up forms. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Sep 20 00:24:57 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 00:24:57 -0500 Subject: Amiga video to component video or VGA? In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2b1f1f550909151833g680b23bdl66e147bf664331c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909192224y590686e3y294d96e1915da649@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > I picked up an A500 recently. All I have for a display is the mono composite > out. Can I make an adapter for the RGB out to either VGA or component? If > not, where can I get an appropriate monitor? Hi Joe. It appears that the NEC Multisync 3DS and 4PG both sync low enough to display images with just the wire rearranger. brian From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Sep 20 00:30:16 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 22:30:16 -0700 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 omnibus "top connector" blocks (or reasonable substitute) Message-ID: <4AB5BDE8.80103@mail.msu.edu> Picked up an RK8E along with an interesting PDP-8/e system (well, interesting in that it says "digital equipment international ltd, galway ireland" on the front panel, which is something I've not seen before on a DEC product. Otherwise it's your standard 8/e...) The RK8E's missing the top connector blocks and I don't have any spares of these; are these unobtanium? Anyone have any to spare, or have suggestions on how best to make my own? Thanks, Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 20 04:30:03 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 05:30:03 -0400 Subject: Mumps on DEC systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:27 AM +0800 9/20/09, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >> >> I'm doing a bit of research on Mumps history and would be glad to know if >> anybody has copies of the following: >> >> 1. DSM-11 (which OS did it ran on the -11?) > > I believe it was its own OS. Yes. I worked with *one* 11/53 ("MIcroPDP-11") that had DSM on it. It was assuredly its own self-contained environment (i.e., no RT-11 underneath, no RSTS, no RSX, no UNIX - just DSM from the moment the boot block was read in. >> 2. VAX/DSM >> 3. DSM for OpenVMS (Alpha) >> 4. DSM for Ultrix (MIPS or VAX?) Those are too "new" to be part of my experience. >> If it can be run on SIMH, it'd be great!! ISTR that there was nothing unusual about that MicroPDP-11 except perhaps it had a 9track tape controller in it (not unique, but certainly unusual in 1988-era PDP11s.. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 20 10:19:53 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 08:19:53 -0700 Subject: Mumps on DEC systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AB64819.5090107@bitsavers.org> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > I'm doing a bit of research on Mumps history and would be glad to know if > anybody has copies of the following: > > 1. DSM-11 (which OS did it ran on the -11?) > 2. VAX/DSM > 3. DSM for OpenVMS (Alpha) > 4. DSM for Ultrix (MIPS or VAX?) > > If it can be run on SIMH, it'd be great!! > > Thanks. > /wai-sun > > from wikipedia, which has a decent history of MUMPS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS "And, on December 30, 1995, Intersystems acquired the DSM product line from DEC" Intersystems is still around, so it would be their IP. I seriously doubt you would see it on SIMH any time soon. As Ethan said, it was its own OS on the 18 bit machines and on the PDP-11. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 20 10:26:42 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 08:26:42 -0700 Subject: Mumps on DEC systems In-Reply-To: <4AB64819.5090107@bitsavers.org> References: <4AB64819.5090107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AB649B2.6030804@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > from wikipedia, which has a decent history of MUMPS > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUMPS > There also appear to be some serious MUMPS haters out there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MUMPS From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 20 12:18:33 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 13:18:33 -0400 Subject: MUMPS on DEC systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090920171833.6BBFCBA52D8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Zane writes: > Good luck. The only DSM-11 images I'm aware of are in a tape format > for which to the best of my knowledge the software for reading was > never released. The rest I've never seen any sign of. I seem to recall DSM-11 using DOS-11 type filesystems on tape and disk. That was a long, long time ago, so my memory may be faded! Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 20 12:29:25 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 10:29:25 -0700 Subject: MUMPS on DEC systems In-Reply-To: <20090920171833.6BBFCBA52D8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090920171833.6BBFCBA52D8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: At 1:18 PM -0400 9/20/09, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Zane writes: >> Good luck. The only DSM-11 images I'm aware of are in a tape format >> for which to the best of my knowledge the software for reading was >> never released. The rest I've never seen any sign of. > >I seem to recall DSM-11 using DOS-11 type filesystems on tape and >disk. That was a long, long time ago, so my memory may be faded! I was referring to the format the tape images were created in, not the format that the tapes themselves are in. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Sat Sep 19 04:07:39 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:07:39 +0200 Subject: pdp8/e toggles References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc>, <4AB380A1.11406.B16163B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4AB40A09.3080703@nktelco.net> <4AB3AF53.16120.6B36C7@cclist.sydex.com> <4AB415A5.10905@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <001901ca3908$a974b4c0$04000005@pc> hello ,here are some explanations I made the mold with a two components silicone product used by dentists ,several makes exits according to local ressources.I just used a surviving handle .It is the silicone mix that is poured over the handle when liquid,all that in a small plastic box to contain everything of course. After is is solid (like rubber of course) the silicon is cut in two with a cutter ,the original handle is carefully removed.The Fimo paste is rather smooth ,not solid ,not rigid when new and not cooked .I fill the hole in the mold with light but firm pressure ,take care of filling everything ,not leaving holes .The result is not porous ,to make it even better , when still hot I cleaned the fabricated handle with a soft sand paper.The result is bright handle ,no hole ,no porous surface. No not forget the metal piece inside the fimo,and the small rod as axis ,Fimo is not strong enought to sustain mecanical efforts.Cooking of Fimo paste is done in a microwave owen:the fabricated handle in the mold is put in a small glass with a few quantity of water,10 minutes cooking....ask xyl for the user's manual of your microwave owen:-))) I hope it is precise enought ,excuse for some unprecise or inappropriate words,the vocabulary about making DEC pdp8 handles is not in my dictionnary:-)) best regards alain ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles H Dickman" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: samedi 19 septembre 2009 01:20 Subject: Re: pdp8/e toggles > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 18 Sep 2009 at 18:30, Charles H Dickman wrote: > > > > > >> Are you familiar with this material and what his process might have > >> been? Was the mold of the same material, do you think? > >> > > > > I don't know what he made the mold of, but anything, including > > plaster of Paris should work. I've never worked with Fimo, but I've > > done a few things with Sculpey; it's kind of porous, which makes me > > wonder how good it would be for a toggle switch handle. > > > > It might be better to try this with one of the two-part epoxy > > sculpting material, say Apoxie: > > > > http://avesstudio.com/Products/Apoxie_Sculpt/apoxie_sculpt.html > > > > > It seems like the mold would have to be rigid (plaster of Paris, as you > suggest) since there was a need to force the clay into it, in contrast > to using something like silicone rubber as a mold and then pouring a > liquid polymer into it. > > Thanks, > > -chuck > > > > > From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Sat Sep 19 08:43:03 2009 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 23:43:03 +1000 Subject: Cardreader "DEC CR10" In-Reply-To: <200909181551.n8IFpuRl076912@ultimate.com> References: <200909181551.n8IFpuRl076912@ultimate.com> Message-ID: On 19/09/2009, at 1:51 AM, Phil Budne wrote: >> From: Huw Davies >> On 17/09/2009, at 5:46 AM, Phil Budne wrote: >>> % grep CR10 ~www/ult/phil/pdp10/10periphs >>> BA10 hard copy control for CR10, LP10, XY10 >>> CR10A card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 1000CPM 60Hz power >>> CR10B card reader (Soroban Model ERD) 830CPM 50Hz power >>> CR10E card reader 1200CPM >>> CR10F table top card reader 300CPM >>> >>> (the above file is web visible at http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/10periphs >>> ) >> >> Looking at the CR10A and CR10B the ratio of CPM to power Hz is about >> the same. Does this mean that those of us who had cards read in 50Hz >> countries were being ripped off :-) > > Both models read 16.6 cards per jiffy therefore > time just runs slower in 50Hz countries! Did this mean our DECsystem-10 ran 12% slower too - if so it's no wonder it felt slow :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From semac10 at comcast.net Sat Sep 19 13:16:52 2009 From: semac10 at comcast.net (MACS) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:16:52 -0700 Subject: STR LINK IIa Message-ID: Hello,I saw your e-mail post and was wondering if you would be interested in a used str-link IIa data recorder? Used powers up with out the case includes a drive belt. the motor doesnt work makes noise but works and the brass pully needs another axle hinge. There is a dent in the top part of the case face plate. It also comes with 2 data tapes and some paper work. I am asking $100.00 plus shipping of $18.00 in the lower 48 states. If your interesed you can contact me at semac10 at comcast.net or 253-447-7382 Please leave a message and I will get right back to you. Thanks Robert at Macs Security LLC. From jws at jwsss.com Sat Sep 19 13:17:58 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:17:58 -0700 Subject: Software & Printers for shipping or pickup Message-ID: <4AB52056.20303@jwsss.com> I have a friend who is moving, and wants to get rid of a few things. SCO Open Server software SCO manual set - do you want these? heavy to ship unless I do book rate I guess. Anadex Silent Scribe printer NEC PinWriter printer I have a lot of old SCO software sets and manuals as well. Off list, I'll forward to him, or arrange for you to get to my stuff. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 20 17:42:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:42:33 -0700 Subject: pdp8/e toggles In-Reply-To: <001901ca3908$a974b4c0$04000005@pc> References: <000f01ca384d$09da0200$04000005@pc>, <001901ca3908$a974b4c0$04000005@pc> Message-ID: <4AB64D69.8324.18E52A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Sep 2009 at 11:07, nierveze wrote: >hello ,here are some explanations... Alain, Thank you very much for the explanation of your very clever replacements! Do you think that adding some glass fibers (as is done with polyester and epoxy composite materials) would improve the mechanical strength of your replacement? For small metal rods, I maintain a stock of stainless steel bicycle wheel spokes in various sizes here. They can often be gotten used from the local bicycle repair shop for next to nothing. I can't begin to tell you how many things here have been repaired with one of these... :) Best regards, Chuck From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 20 18:42:44 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 19:42:44 -0400 Subject: MUMPS on DEC systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090920234245.CF9D5BA52DA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Al Kossow wrote: > There also appear to be some serious MUMPS haters out there > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MUMPS I got to do a little MUMPS and I understand the criticism of someone coming from a world where reduced normal form relational databases are the expectation. There's a lot of homegrown MUMPS code out there that does not conform to anyone's critique of architecture and style. But that has more to do with the accessibility of MUMPS and the decades old nature of the code and data, IMHO, than with anything intrinsically bad about MUMPS. I get to deal with a lot of legacy code! Now, to see something that shows true vitriol towards a software product, you have to not only read "The Cognitive Style of Powerpoint", but meet Edward Tufte and let him lay into it verbally :-). Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Sep 20 18:58:30 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 17:58:30 -0600 Subject: Burroughs B80 in NJ In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 Sep 2009 16:05:35 -0400. <01CA3879.FCFFC7E0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: Too far for me, or I would have grabbed it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Sep 20 18:59:39 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 16:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI-990 in Muncie Message-ID: <492320.91028.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Cheap, pick-up only! Not my listing, I just found it. http://muncie.craigslist.org/ele/1358238177.html From jgessling at yahoo.com Sun Sep 20 19:15:09 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 17:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MUMPS on DEC systems Message-ID: <155901.20179.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> InterSystems is still actively supporting and marketing MUMPS. Now it's called CACHE. Popular in the health care field and to a lesser extent in finance. Regards, Jim From bear at typewritten.org Sun Sep 20 20:40:46 2009 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:40:46 -0700 Subject: simple VM/370 and/or VM/ESA question In-Reply-To: <4BAE94EB-29AC-4BA8-A2C0-3B42F4277435@neurotica.com> References: <4BAE94EB-29AC-4BA8-A2C0-3B42F4277435@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <8D6104CB-22A5-4D37-8251-3EB1309E492F@typewritten.org> Dave- which version of VM? It's been in the same place for at least a decade. ok bear -- Sent from my iPhone On Sep 19, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey folks, I know there must be some VM types out there. Can > someone tell me the name of the file, and the minidisk on which it > resides, that contains the logo image that is displayed on terminals > upon connecting to a VM/370 or VM/ESA system? > > I know where it lives in z/VM, but it doesn't seem to be in the > same place in earlier generations, and literally hours of digging > has turned up nothing. > > Thanks, > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 20 20:45:16 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:45:16 -0400 Subject: simple VM/370 and/or VM/ESA question In-Reply-To: <8D6104CB-22A5-4D37-8251-3EB1309E492F@typewritten.org> References: <4BAE94EB-29AC-4BA8-A2C0-3B42F4277435@neurotica.com> <8D6104CB-22A5-4D37-8251-3EB1309E492F@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <184D9ABF-5FC8-48C4-94AB-EB93458F9FE3@neurotica.com> VM/ESA v2.3, specifically. -Dave On Sep 20, 2009, at 9:40 PM, r.stricklin wrote: > Dave- which version of VM? It's been in the same place for at least > a decade. > > ok > bear > > -- > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 19, 2009, at 4:25 PM, Dave McGuire > wrote: > >> >> Hey folks, I know there must be some VM types out there. Can >> someone tell me the name of the file, and the minidisk on which it >> resides, that contains the logo image that is displayed on >> terminals upon connecting to a VM/370 or VM/ESA system? >> >> I know where it lives in z/VM, but it doesn't seem to be in the >> same place in earlier generations, and literally hours of digging >> has turned up nothing. >> >> Thanks, >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 20 21:09:12 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 19:09:12 -0700 Subject: MUMPS on DEC systems In-Reply-To: <155901.20179.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <155901.20179.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 5:15 PM -0700 9/20/09, James Gessling wrote: >InterSystems is still actively supporting and marketing MUMPS. Now >it's called CACHE. Popular in the health care field and to a lesser >extent in finance. Interesting... I hadn't realized they were one in the same. Is there a Hobbyist License of some sort, or am I mixing them up with another DB? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From drb at msu.edu Sun Sep 20 20:57:28 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:57:28 -0400 Subject: simple VM/370 and/or VM/ESA question In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:45:16 EDT.) <184D9ABF-5FC8-48C4-94AB-EB93458F9FE3@neurotica.com> References: <184D9ABF-5FC8-48C4-94AB-EB93458F9FE3@neurotica.com> <4BAE94EB-29AC-4BA8-A2C0-3B42F4277435@neurotica.com> <8D6104CB-22A5-4D37-8251-3EB1309E492F@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <200909210157.n8L1vSqJ027040@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> >> Hey folks, I know there must be some VM types out there. Can >> someone tell me the name of the file, and the minidisk on which it >> resides, that contains the logo image that is displayed on >> terminals upon connecting to a VM/370 or VM/ESA system? In the XA era, it was DMKBOX ASSEMBLE on one of the MAINT disks, and you had to regen to change it. IIRC. De From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Sun Sep 20 23:29:16 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:29:16 -0700 Subject: MUMPS on DEC systems In-Reply-To: References: <155901.20179.qm@web31911.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:15 PM -0700 9/20/09, James Gessling wrote: >> >> InterSystems is still actively supporting and marketing MUMPS. Now it's >> called CACHE. ?Popular in the health care field and to a lesser extent in >> finance. > > Interesting... ?I hadn't realized they were one in the same. ?Is there a > Hobbyist License of some sort, or am I mixing them up with another DB? > > Zane Intersystems/Cache used to have a free 'developers' license for their CACHE (sorry, no accent) product, at least on Windows (and the Mac as well, I believe). Ok, I just went and checked... their Cache product is available for free eval on Windows, Mac and Linux. It's the single user version. Mark From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Sep 21 03:29:13 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:29:13 +0100 Subject: [personal] Looking for PDP-8 omnibus "top connector" blocks (or reasonablesubstitute) References: <4AB5BDE8.80103@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <006201ca3a95$9a1e5e20$961ca8c0@mss.local> From: "Josh Dersch" Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 6:30 AM Subject: [personal] Looking for PDP-8 omnibus "top connector" blocks (or reasonablesubstitute) > Picked up an RK8E along with an interesting PDP-8/e system (well, > interesting in that it says "digital equipment international ltd, galway > ireland" on the front panel, which is something I've not seen before on a > DEC product. Otherwise it's your standard 8/e...) DEC had a manufacturing plant in Galway, attracted there by government subsidies, as were a lot of other electronics companies atthe time. Mike > > The RK8E's missing the top connector blocks and I don't have any spares of > these; are these unobtanium? Anyone have any to spare, or have > suggestions on how best to make my own? > > Thanks, > Josh > > > From wgungfu at gmail.com Sun Sep 20 18:25:53 2009 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 18:25:53 -0500 Subject: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC In-Reply-To: <551937.53182.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <2c768b1e0909161034g7a204ec0y1bb06c50d309159c@mail.gmail.com> <551937.53182.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2c768b1e0909201625v6721e81em11c3f356aef4b96c@mail.gmail.com> Andrew - Bohus from retrothing.com is going to be there recording it. Marty On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Is there any chance that your talk can be recorded and uploaded to the 'net > for those of us that can't make the show? > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > --- On Wed, 16/9/09, Martin Goldberg wrote: > > From: Martin Goldberg > Subject: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Wednesday, 16 September, 2009, 6:34 PM > > Just a heads up for anyone that might be interested, I'll be giving a > speech > at the Emergency Chicagoland Commodore Convention on Sept. 26th. The > material is based on the latest research by myself and Curt regarding the > previously muddled claims and relationship between between Atari Inc. and > Amiga, Amiga and Commodore, and Commodore/Amiga and Atari Corp/Tramiel. > I'll > be giving a glimpse in to our research and setting the record straight on a > lot of the issues, as well as covering some material related to the split > and sale of Atari Inc. itself. > > Visit the ECCC site for more info on the show, I believe my talk starts > around 3:30pm. > http://starbase.globalpc.net/eccc/ > > > Marty > From jws at jwsss.com Mon Sep 21 00:27:41 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 22:27:41 -0700 Subject: CDC SMD drive + ps spotted on vendor's for sale list Message-ID: <4AB70ECD.2090000@jwsss.com> I found this CDC drive while looking at a large ebay vendor's site. They also have a CDC Hawk listed. High priced, but perhaps of interest. Search eBay with string "CDC Magnetic Peripherals" and a tester also shows up. Hawk ebay id is 200255855015 and the item below is either an EMD or FSD drive and its item id on ebay is 150328274824. Their prices are quite high if that puts you off. I am not affiliated with them in any way. Jim http://www.recycledgoods.com/34913_CDC%20Magnetic%20Peripherals_81542301_Hard%20Drive%20with%20Power%20Supply.html From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Sep 21 08:03:22 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (pontus at Update.UU.SE) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:03:22 +0200 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 omnibus "top connector" blocks (or reasonable substitute) In-Reply-To: <4AB5BDE8.80103@mail.msu.edu> References: <4AB5BDE8.80103@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6a0c88bbc4536c51f2c3e5f68213fa03.squirrel@www.update.uu.se> > Picked up an RK8E along with an interesting PDP-8/e system (well, > interesting in that it says "digital equipment international ltd, galway > ireland" on the front panel, which is something I've not seen before on > a DEC product. Otherwise it's your standard 8/e...) Nice, would you treat us with a picture of the front panel? It's fun to see the different versions. > > The RK8E's missing the top connector blocks and I don't have any spares > of these; are these unobtanium? Anyone have any to spare, or have > suggestions on how best to make my own? Are these the same as the ones connecting memory with driver and sense/inhibit boards? I might have some to spare at home. > > Thanks, > Josh > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 08:16:44 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 09:16:44 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 omnibus "top connector" blocks (or reasonable substitute) In-Reply-To: <6a0c88bbc4536c51f2c3e5f68213fa03.squirrel@www.update.uu.se> References: <4AB5BDE8.80103@mail.msu.edu> <6a0c88bbc4536c51f2c3e5f68213fa03.squirrel@www.update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 9:03 AM, wrote: >> The RK8E's missing the top connector blocks and I don't have any spares >> of these; are these unobtanium? ?Anyone have any to spare, or have >> suggestions on how best to make my own? > > Are these the same as the ones connecting memory with driver and > sense/inhibit boards? I might have some to spare at home. Yes. They are identical. H851s. Several PDP-8 devices used them - TM8E, RK8E, MM8E, KK8E, possibly the VT8E (never seen one) A modern subsitute would be a good thing to be able to make. -ethan From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Sep 21 11:59:47 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:59:47 +0100 Subject: Mumps and diseases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50D6A74D-D5E3-4539-B2BB-47A50CEBEDAD@microspot.co.uk> All this talk of Mumps made me remember while I worked for Marconi Elliott Avionic Systems Ltd we had a library called MEASLs library. Another branch of GEC came up with another library which they decided to call Rubella. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 21 13:14:58 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:14:58 -0400 Subject: Olivetti Underwood 288 adding machines In-Reply-To: <200909172257.34182.vax@purdue.edu> References: <200909171637.23094.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200909172257.34182.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: <200909211414.59023.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 17 September 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 17 September 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > If you're interested in one or all three, let me know. I can post > > a picture if you're interested. From the instruction card that is > > with them, they appear to be from about 1960. They're about the > > size of a desktop calculator. > > It appears that I only have two. I have another similar adding > machines, which I think I am going to keep. They don't quite work, > but I think they just need to be cleaned and lubed up. I have some > pictures: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622276571533/ > > They smell a bit musty, but they looks like they're in good shape > internally. If anyone is interested, I still have one left... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 21 14:07:31 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e0909201625v6721e81em11c3f356aef4b96c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <69011.76165.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Cool :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 21/9/09, Martin Goldberg wrote: From: Martin Goldberg Subject: Re: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Monday, 21 September, 2009, 12:25 AM Andrew - Bohus from retrothing.com is going to be there recording it. Marty On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Is there any chance that your talk can be recorded and uploaded to the 'net > for those of us that can't make the show? > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > > --- On Wed, 16/9/09, Martin Goldberg wrote: > > From: Martin Goldberg > Subject: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Wednesday, 16 September, 2009, 6:34 PM > > Just a heads up for anyone that might be interested, I'll be giving a > speech > at the Emergency Chicagoland Commodore Convention on Sept. 26th. The > material is based on the latest research by myself and Curt regarding the > previously muddled claims and relationship between between Atari Inc. and > Amiga, Amiga and Commodore, and Commodore/Amiga and Atari Corp/Tramiel. > I'll > be giving a glimpse in to our research and setting the record straight on a > lot of the issues, as well as covering some material related to the split > and sale of Atari Inc. itself. > > Visit the ECCC site for more info on the show, I believe my talk starts > around 3:30pm. > http://starbase.globalpc.net/eccc/ > > > Marty > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 21 15:39:28 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 13:39:28 -0700 Subject: CDC Hawk (Re: CDC SMD drive + ps spotted on vendor's for sale list) In-Reply-To: <4AB70ECD.2090000@jwsss.com> References: <4AB70ECD.2090000@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4AB7E480.6010103@bitsavers.org> jim s wrote: > I found this CDC drive while looking at a large ebay vendor's site. > They also have a CDC Hawk listed. High priced, but perhaps of interest. > I have a Hawk for a Modcomp with a pedestal cabinet available in the Bay Area. From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 16:05:18 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 16:05:18 -0500 Subject: FFS: Wacom ADB Tablet Message-ID: <51ea77730909211405qc0fb9e0g4fe53fd5efd39829@mail.gmail.com> Got a nice old Wacom Digitizer II (Model UD-0608-A) tablet, about 8" x 6" on the drawing surface, for classic (ADB) Macs. Goes inline with the keyboard or mouse, I don't remember. Worked the last time I had an ADB Mac up and running. I've got the pen and holder as well. Free for the cost of shipping from 60074. -- jht From robert.stek at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 12:06:13 2009 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:06:13 -0700 Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" Message-ID: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> As has been griped about in the past, I went on an all out google search for a 5.25" drive married to a USB adapter. Thought I almost had one when I saw a picture on the Teac website of what turned out to be a USB to IDE adapter they sell. I contacted them anyway and inquired about hacking their 3.5" USB drive. Their reply: Hello Robert, Unfortunately, TEAC did not make an adapter to convert a standard 5.25" floppy drive to USB interface. There is no solution that we can offer you. The USB 3.5" floppy drives can not be dismantled as these don't have a USB adapter, instead the USB chip is already built-in its main PCBA. Therefore, there is no single part that can be used to convert a 5.25" drive into a USB interface drive. You may want to search online; perhaps another company offers a conversion kit for a 5.25" drive. Regretfully, Mario Gomez Customer Support Manager Data Storage Prod. Division TEAC America, Inc. Ah, well. Looks like if it can happen at all, it would have to be home-brewed. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From SHale at sclay.com Mon Sep 21 12:42:24 2009 From: SHale at sclay.com (Scott Hale) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 10:42:24 -0700 Subject: Two VAX's available Message-ID: <82A85C131BCFE44AB42C8CF528D36AF8F9E1F5@sc-exch-01> 2 - DEC MV3100/40 32 MB, RZ26 (3GB Disk), RZ28 (2GB Disk) (1) 40-user VMS License 6.2 QL-095AB-AA Vax Basic License QL-MC1AB-AA NAS 200 License Exabyte EXB8505XL tape drive (external) DECHUB-BA hub with power supply DECserver 90TL Terminal server DECRepeater DETML-MA-16 hub RRD42-FA-CD-ROM (external) Incls Xentis 4.6 reportwriter software licenses (reference manual available) DecWord Taker pays shipping costs from Calif. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 21 16:46:06 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:46:06 -0700 Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" In-Reply-To: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> References: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4AB791AE.16493.680FD4E@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2009 at 10:06, Robert Stek wrote: > Ah, well. Looks like if it can happen at all, it would have to be > home-brewed. SMS/SMSC once made a USB 1.0-to-floppy interface chip. ISTR that it required some firmware. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 21 16:48:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 14:48:07 -0700 Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" In-Reply-To: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> References: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <4AB79227.25127.682D75D@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2009 at 10:06, Robert Stek wrote: > As has been griped about in the past, I went on an all out google > search for a 5.25" drive married to a USB adapter. Thought I almost > had one when I saw a picture on the Teac website of what turned out to > be a USB to IDE adapter they sell. I contacted them anyway and > inquired about hacking their 3.5" USB drive. Their reply: The other issue with a standard USB interface to floppy is that it's usually a SCSI-type command structure. That is, the device is treated as a relative-block-addressable device with no user control over sector size, interleave or addressing. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 21 17:59:40 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" In-Reply-To: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> References: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20090921155314.T4998@shell.lmi.net> Well, a simple Google of USB 5.25" The first hit http://www.computing.net/answers/hardware/is-it-possible-a-usb-525-floppy/51539.html is a guy who claims that he connects an external 5.25" floppy drive to a USB to Serial adapter! . . . and internal 5.25" floppy drive to a USB to IDE adapter! . . . and XP "Doesn't need a driver" WOW! I'd like to see that! I wonder if he powers it by jamming a USB cable into the mains receptacle? From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 18:47:08 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:47:08 -0500 Subject: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC In-Reply-To: <2c768b1e0909201625v6721e81em11c3f356aef4b96c@mail.gmail.com> References: <2c768b1e0909161034g7a204ec0y1bb06c50d309159c@mail.gmail.com> <551937.53182.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <2c768b1e0909201625v6721e81em11c3f356aef4b96c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909211647r7d171c23o85716242966c4354@mail.gmail.com> With Ingmar Bergman's super 8 camera? ;-) On Sun, Sep 20, 2009 at 6:25 PM, Martin Goldberg wrote: > Andrew - > > Bohus from retrothing.com is going to be there recording it. > > > Marty > > On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Andrew Burton > wrote: > >> >> Is there any chance that your talk can be recorded and uploaded to the 'net >> for those of us that can't make the show? >> >> >> Regards, >> Andrew B >> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk >> >> >> --- On Wed, 16/9/09, Martin Goldberg wrote: >> >> From: Martin Goldberg >> Subject: Atari/Amiga History Talk at ECCC >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >> Date: Wednesday, 16 September, 2009, 6:34 PM >> >> Just a heads up for anyone that might be interested, I'll be giving a >> speech >> at the Emergency Chicagoland Commodore Convention on Sept. 26th. The >> material is based on the latest research by myself and Curt regarding the >> previously muddled claims and relationship between between Atari Inc. and >> Amiga, Amiga and Commodore, and Commodore/Amiga and Atari Corp/Tramiel. >> I'll >> be giving a glimpse in to our research and setting the record straight on a >> lot of the issues, as well as covering some material related to the split >> and sale of Atari Inc. itself. >> >> Visit the ECCC site for more info on the show, I believe my talk starts >> around 3:30pm. >> http://starbase.globalpc.net/eccc/ >> >> >> Marty >> > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 21 19:56:53 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 17:56:53 -0700 Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" In-Reply-To: <20090921155314.T4998@shell.lmi.net> References: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com>, <20090921155314.T4998@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AB7BE65.12819.72FA806@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2009 at 15:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > Well, a simple Google of > USB 5.25" > I wonder if he powers it by jamming a USB cable into the mains > receptacle? "I suggest extracing the USB "part" from a 1.44 floppy disk driver and mixing it with the normal 5.25 driver." Most likely using an Osterizer, preferably the chromium-plated variety to retain the "vintage" aspect... --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 21:10:00 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:10:00 -0500 Subject: FFS: Wacom ADB Tablet In-Reply-To: <51ea77730909211405qc0fb9e0g4fe53fd5efd39829@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730909211405qc0fb9e0g4fe53fd5efd39829@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730909211910l5739ca09k6c1474f166cef329@mail.gmail.com> And...it's gone. Thanks to all who replied. -j On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Jason T wrote: > Got a nice old Wacom Digitizer II (Model UD-0608-A) tablet, about 8" x > 6" on the drawing surface, for classic (ADB) Macs. ?Goes inline with > the keyboard or mouse, I don't remember. ?Worked the last time I had > an ADB Mac up and running. ?I've got the pen and holder as well. > > Free for the cost of shipping from 60074. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 21:38:16 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:38:16 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? Message-ID: Hi, All, I have some 2.5" SCSI drives from Thinkpads - Toshiba MK2428FB, IBM DVAS-2810, and an IBM DPRS-21215. I don't think they have the same pin arrangement as older 68K-era Mac laptops that take SCSI drives (though I could be mistaken on that). Was there more than one standard pinout in the sub-1GB 2.5" SCSI drive world? Thanks for any comments, observations, and pointers. -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 21 21:42:04 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:42:04 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? References: Message-ID: <89ED4796D99F4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "classiccmp" Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:38 PM Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? > Hi, All, > > I have some 2.5" SCSI drives from Thinkpads - Toshiba MK2428FB, IBM > DVAS-2810, and an IBM DPRS-21215. I don't think they have the same > pin arrangement as older 68K-era Mac laptops that take SCSI drives > (though I could be mistaken on that). Was there more than one > standard pinout in the sub-1GB 2.5" SCSI drive world? > > Thanks for any comments, observations, and pointers. > > -ethan Which thinkpads had scsi? From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 21:51:13 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:51:13 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <89ED4796D99F4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> References: <89ED4796D99F4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> Message-ID: <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: "classiccmp" > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:38 PM > Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? > > >> Hi, All, >> >> I have some 2.5" SCSI drives from Thinkpads - Toshiba MK2428FB, IBM >> DVAS-2810, and an IBM DPRS-21215. I don't think they have the same >> pin arrangement as older 68K-era Mac laptops that take SCSI drives >> (though I could be mistaken on that). Was there more than one >> standard pinout in the sub-1GB 2.5" SCSI drive world? >> >> Thanks for any comments, observations, and pointers. >> >> -ethan > > Which thinkpads had scsi? 800, 820, 850, 860? Probably some of the 7-series too. Peace... Sridhar From g-wright at att.net Mon Sep 21 22:20:40 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 03:20:40 +0000 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <092220090320.2302.4AB842870004E445000008FE22243651029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Ethan Dicks : -------------- > Hi, All, > > I have some 2.5" SCSI drives from Thinkpads - Toshiba MK2428FB, IBM > DVAS-2810, and an IBM DPRS-21215. I don't think they have the same > pin arrangement as older 68K-era Mac laptops that take SCSI drives > (though I could be mistaken on that). Was there more than one > standard pinout in the sub-1GB 2.5" SCSI drive world? > > Thanks for any comments, observations, and pointers. > > -ethan Where are the ThinkPads, I know of only the Power PC models that had SCSI. (8xx models) Getting very rare these days. I'm always looking for these. - Jerry From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 21 22:27:41 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:27:41 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? References: <89ED4796D99F4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:51 PM Subject: Re: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? > > 800, 820, 850, 860? Probably some of the 7-series too. > > Peace... Sridhar > Don't think any of the 7xx series had SCSI, never owned a unix 8xx series to know what was in them. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 22:35:58 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:35:58 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> References: <89ED4796D99F4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com> <84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> Message-ID: <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:51 PM > Subject: Re: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? > > >> >> 800, 820, 850, 860? Probably some of the 7-series too. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> > > Don't think any of the 7xx series had SCSI, never owned a unix 8xx > series to know what was in them. I know some of the really early 7-series machines used ESDI. And I don't remember what the CL57SX used. Peace... Sridhar From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 21 22:48:37 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:48:37 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? References: <89ED4796D99F4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com><84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> Message-ID: <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 11:35 PM Subject: Re: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? > Teo Zenios wrote: >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" >> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 10:51 PM >> Subject: Re: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? >> >> >>> >>> 800, 820, 850, 860? Probably some of the 7-series too. >>> >>> Peace... Sridhar >>> >> >> Don't think any of the 7xx series had SCSI, never owned a unix 8xx series >> to know what was in them. > > I know some of the really early 7-series machines used ESDI. And I don't > remember what the CL57SX used. > > Peace... Sridhar Are we still talking laptops here? From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 23:16:44 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:16:44 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> References: <89ED4796D99F4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com><84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> Message-ID: <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: >>>> 800, 820, 850, 860? Probably some of the 7-series too. >>>> >>>> Peace... Sridhar >>>> >>> >>> Don't think any of the 7xx series had SCSI, never owned a unix 8xx >>> series to know what was in them. >> >> I know some of the really early 7-series machines used ESDI. And I >> don't remember what the CL57SX used. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > Are we still talking laptops here? Yes. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 21 23:55:18 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:55:18 -0700 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> References: <89ED4796D99F 4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com><84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:16 AM -0400 9/22/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Teo Zenios wrote: >>>>>800, 820, 850, 860? Probably some of the 7-series too. >>>>> >>>>>Peace... Sridhar >>>>> >>>> >>>>Don't think any of the 7xx series had SCSI, never owned a unix >>>>8xx series to know what was in them. >>> >>>I know some of the really early 7-series machines used ESDI. And >>>I don't remember what the CL57SX used. >>> >>>Peace... Sridhar >> >>Are we still talking laptops here? > >Yes. > >Peace... Sridhar Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI HD's?!?! I didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 00:29:51 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:29:51 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: References: <89ED4796D99F 4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com><84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB860CF.9090202@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> I know some of the really early 7-series machines used ESDI. And I >>>> don't remember what the CL57SX used. >>> >>> Are we still talking laptops here? >> >> Yes. > > Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI HD's?!?! I > didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". I just looked it up. The PS/2 N51SX and CL57SX used 2.5" ESDI drives, and the PS/2 L40SX used IDE (<504MB). Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 00:33:47 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:33:47 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: References: <89ED4796D99F 4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com><84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB861BB.4000108@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI HD's?!?! I > didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". Come to think of it, didn't the PS/2 Model 70 have a 3.5" ESDI? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 22 00:38:40 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 22:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <4AB860CF.9090202@gmail.com> References: <89ED4796D99F 4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com><84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> <4AB860CF.9090202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090921223533.U18587@shell.lmi.net> > > Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI HD's?!?! I > > didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". I have a 3.5" ESDI hard drive in one machine. I don't remember for sure, but I think that it's size is 100M? 120M? 200M? It's on a WD1007? controller. If it matters, I know which table that machine is on. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 00:43:12 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:43:12 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <20090921223533.U18587@shell.lmi.net> References: <89ED4796D99F 4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com><84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> <4AB860CF.9090202@gmail.com> <20090921223533.U18587@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AB863F0.7030206@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI HD's?!?! I >>> didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". > > I have a 3.5" ESDI hard drive in one machine. I don't remember for sure, > but I think that it's size is 100M? 120M? 200M? It's on a WD1007? > controller. If it matters, I know which table that machine is on. The one I seem to remember from the PS/2 70 is 120MB. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 00:49:58 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:49:58 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <4AB861BB.4000108@gmail.com> References: <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com> <84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> <4AB861BB.4000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/22/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI HD's?!?! I >> didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". > > Come to think of it, didn't the PS/2 Model 70 have a 3.5" ESDI? That sounds familiar. The PS/2 Model 30 (not 286) came with a 3.5" ESDI drive - with a full-width edge connector. When the disk on the one at work got too crowded, I replaced it with a 50 MB ST412 ("MFM") disk and ISA controller, ignoring the motherboard disk controller. I remember the size because it was too large for a single partition under DOS 3.x, so we had a new "D:" drive that caused some confusion for some of the users (they had only experienced machines with 30MB and smaller drives up to that point.) -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 00:54:48 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:54:48 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: References: <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com> <84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> <4AB861BB.4000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4AB866A8.4060608@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/22/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI HD's?!?! I >>> didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". >> Come to think of it, didn't the PS/2 Model 70 have a 3.5" ESDI? > > That sounds familiar. The PS/2 Model 30 (not 286) came with a 3.5" > ESDI drive - with a full-width edge connector. When the disk on the > one at work got too crowded, I replaced it with a 50 MB ST412 ("MFM") > disk and ISA controller, ignoring the motherboard disk controller. I > remember the size because it was too large for a single partition > under DOS 3.x, so we had a new "D:" drive that caused some confusion > for some of the users (they had only experienced machines with 30MB > and smaller drives up to that point.) The full width edge connector drive was the one on the Mod 70, wasn't it? I thought the Mod 30-8086 came with only two floppy drives? Wasn't the Mod 30 hard drive option a 3rd party jobbie? Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Sep 22 01:07:31 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 02:07:31 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <4AB861BB.4000108@gmail.com> References: <4AB861BB.4000108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200909220207.31191.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 22 September 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI > > HD's?!?! I didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". > > Come to think of it, didn't the PS/2 Model 70 have a 3.5" ESDI? I think that the model 70 has a bus-attached disk interface ("IDE" of sorts, but not ATA). Basically the MCA bus run to the disk drive slots. I've got a few of the "special" disks laying around, but I'm not sure if any of them work anymore. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Sep 22 01:04:56 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 07:04:56 +0100 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <20090921223533.U18587@shell.lmi.net> References: <89ED4796D99F 4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com><84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> <4AB860CF.9090202@gmail.com> <20090921223533.U18587@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AB86908.7020901@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/09/2009 06:38, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI HD's?!?! I >>> didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". > > I have a 3.5" ESDI hard drive in one machine. I don't remember for sure, > but I think that it's size is 100M? 120M? 200M? It's on a WD1007? > controller. If it matters, I know which table that machine is on. I have a NEC D3661, which is a 118MB full-height 3.5" ESDI drive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Sep 22 01:34:19 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:34:19 +0200 Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" References: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> Message-ID: > As has been griped about in the past, I went on an all out google search > for > a 5.25" drive married to a USB adapter. Thought I almost had one when I > saw > a picture on the Teac website of what turned out to be a USB to IDE > adapter > they sell. TEAC has a 5.25" SCSI drive, FD235-..... Adaptec has a USB to SCSI adapter, so that could solve your problem Nico From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 22 01:42:59 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" In-Reply-To: References: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20090921234142.Q18587@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, Nico de Jong wrote: > TEAC has a 5.25" SCSI drive, FD235-..... > Adaptec has a USB to SCSI adapter, so that could solve your problem Will you be able to specify other sector sizes when connecting through that combination? From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Sep 22 01:55:32 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 08:55:32 +0200 Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" References: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> <20090921234142.Q18587@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5360F0E96E5C42BDB30F0E55A22FFB22@udvikling> > On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, Nico de Jong wrote: >> TEAC has a 5.25" SCSI drive, FD235-..... >> Adaptec has a USB to SCSI adapter, so that could solve your problem > > Will you be able to specify other sector sizes when connecting through > that combination? > To be honest : no idea. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Sep 22 02:16:34 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI-990 in Muncie In-Reply-To: <492320.91028.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51284.3997.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 9/20/09, steven stengel wrote: > Cheap, pick-up only! > Not my listing, I just found it. > > http://muncie.craigslist.org/ele/1358238177.html I contacted the owner, and he sent me some photos. They me be accessed temporarily at: http://www.harlie.org/ti990 These are reduced resolution photos that download in reasonable time. I have higher resolution if needed. The system looks to be a 990/10 CPU and a CD 1400 cartridge disk drive in a short pedestal rack. Does anyone have actual maintenance prints for the 990/10? I looked on bitsavers, and there is a tech manual with theory of operation, but no prints. --Bill From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 02:34:29 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:34:29 -0700 Subject: TI-990 in Muncie In-Reply-To: <51284.3997.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <492320.91028.qm@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <51284.3997.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:16 AM, William Maddox wrote: > --- On Sun, 9/20/09, steven stengel wrote: > >> Cheap, pick-up only! >> Not my listing, I just found it. >> >> http://muncie.craigslist.org/ele/1358238177.html > > I contacted the owner, and he sent me some photos. > They me be accessed temporarily at: > > ? ?http://www.harlie.org/ti990 > > These are reduced resolution photos that download > in reasonable time. ?I have higher resolution if > needed. > > The system looks to be a 990/10 CPU and a CD 1400 > cartridge disk drive in a short pedestal rack. > > Does anyone have actual maintenance prints for the > 990/10? ?I looked on bitsavers, and there is a tech > manual with theory of operation, but no prints. Nice! Thanks for sharing the pics... I wish I were closer... I'd love to save this machine. Mark From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Sep 22 02:55:12 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:55:12 -0700 Subject: blinkenlight blundering / was TI-990 in Muncie References: <0407011624.AA14114@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <4AB882E1.54AD2053@cs.ubc.ca> William Maddox wrote: > > I contacted the owner, and he sent me some photos. > They me be accessed temporarily at: > > http://www.harlie.org/ti990 The sight of that front panel brings back a memory: 1980: As an undergrad I was invited to work on an OS development project (Verex: successor of Thoth, predecessor of VKernel). The prof (Dave Cheriton) took me to the machine/terminal room to show me the system. We went by the half-dozen ASCII terminals occupied by a few grad students programming away and he indicated these were the terminals connected to the system we were working on (by this time it was already a functioning, usable OS). We walked past some other equipment sharing the lab, to the TI-990 mini running the system, and stood by it's chest-height front panel containing numerous push-buttons and blinking LEDS. Dave explained some things to me about the machine and said the front panel buttons were not active when the system was running and he reached up and pushed one of the buttons. So I reached up and pushed a button as well. (Who amongst us can resist an opportunity to push a button?) I still remember the stunned slow-motion "not.. that .. button..!" from Dave, followed by cries from the other side of the room - the students at the terminals - "hey, what happened!?" ... "the system's crashed!" Out of the 2 dozen push-buttons on the front panel, I had randomly elected to push the ONE button that was NOT disabled. If you looked closely you could see it was the one labeled "HALT". Well, it looked just like all the other buttons. - - - Two or so years later one of those students at the terminals (Steve D.) who had lost an editing session to my blundering would unwittingly exact revenge upon me: I was working one evening, just about finished after a long solid day of writing code. The new source had been compiled and was functioning, everything was great. I started to clean up the source-code file directory I was working in (BSD Unix by this time). I was about to execute "rm *.old". type "r" type "m" type space type "*" the phone rings I pick up the phone - it's Steve (recently departed to grad school at Stanford) calling long-distance from California and he needs someone to look up some info in a file he left on the system (no telnet access at the time). Cognizant of the long-distance charges he would be incurring, I hasten to access the file for him, press to get to a fresh command line, and promptly destroy my entire day's work of tedious, abstruse, code production. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Sep 22 05:02:00 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:02:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TI-990 in Muncie In-Reply-To: <51284.3997.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <51284.3997.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, William Maddox wrote: > The system looks to be a 990/10 CPU and a CD 1400 > cartridge disk drive in a short pedestal rack. > > Does anyone have actual maintenance prints for the > 990/10? I looked on bitsavers, and there is a tech > manual with theory of operation, but no prints. I have the print sets; they came with the half dozen of 990/10 we got some time ago. We also have some 990/12 (also with print sets) and 990/4. This is what I have: - Computer Chassis and Enclosures - Volume I 945421-9701 - Processors and Memories - Volume II 945421-9702 - CRU Expansion and Peripherals - Volume III 945421-9703 - TILINE Expansion and Peripherals - Volume IV 945421-9704 (I think I also have Volume V AMPL Systems... and lots of DNOS docs etc.) Oh, I see that the schematics *are* on bitsavers in .../ti/990/schematics Christian From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Sep 22 05:47:06 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 03:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TI-990 in Muncie In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <570395.94229.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 9/22/09, Christian Corti wrote: > Oh, I see that the schematics *are* on bitsavers in > .../ti/990/schematics Yes, I was only looking in the subdirectories for the various 990 models. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 08:33:24 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:33:24 -0400 Subject: 3.5" ESDI (was Re: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards?) Message-ID: On 9/22/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 9/22/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> Wow, there is something I never knew. There were 2.5" ESDI HD's?!?! I >>>> didn't even know there were any smaller than 5.25". >>> Come to think of it, didn't the PS/2 Model 70 have a 3.5" ESDI? >> >> That sounds familiar. The PS/2 Model 30 (not 286) came with a 3.5" >> ESDI drive - with a full-width edge connector. >> > The full width edge connector drive was the one on the Mod 70, wasn't > it? I thought the Mod 30-8086 came with only two floppy drives? Wasn't > the Mod 30 hard drive option a 3rd party jobbie? This was 100% Big Blue. It was the only PC in a DEC shop, bought by and for the accountants who needed to run DOS-based accounts receivables and payroll apps. I'm willing to accept that it's some bizzaro IDE or MCA bus-extension drive (it does *not* have the usual ESDI cabling arrangement that I'm used to), but I was told at the time I was looking for an upgrade path that it was an ESDI drive - perhaps it's some flavor of IDE drive with an embedded ESDI controller, not an embedded MFM controller. -ethan From jim at photojim.ca Tue Sep 22 10:03:00 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:03:00 -0600 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? References: Message-ID: <42D75DA8348A4231894FAD014B52B279@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "classiccmp" Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 8:38 PM Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? > I have some 2.5" SCSI drives from Thinkpads - Toshiba MK2428FB, IBM > DVAS-2810, and an IBM DPRS-21215. I don't think they have the same > pin arrangement as older 68K-era Mac laptops that take SCSI drives > (though I could be mistaken on that). Was there more than one > standard pinout in the sub-1GB 2.5" SCSI drive world? A total aside - don't waste these drives! They are the only drive that will fit inside the case of the Sparc Voyagers. Jim From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Sep 22 10:17:14 2009 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:17:14 EDT Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? Message-ID: In a message dated 9/21/2009 11:23:37 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, g-wright at att.net writes: >> Hi, All, >> >> I have some 2.5" SCSI drives from Thinkpads - Toshiba MK2428FB, IBM >> DVAS-2810, and an IBM DPRS-21215. I don't think they have the same >> pin arrangement as older 68K-era Mac laptops that take SCSI drives >> (though I could be mistaken on that). Was there more than one >> standard pinout in the sub-1GB 2.5" SCSI drive world? >> >> Thanks for any comments, observations, and pointers. >> >> -ethan >Where are the ThinkPads, I know of only the Power PC >models that had SCSI. (8xx models) Getting very rare >these days. I'm always looking for these The thinkpad 700 and maybe the 720 used ESDI drives. All other models with maybe some early exceptions all used IDE. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 10:54:56 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 11:54:56 -0400 Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <42D75DA8348A4231894FAD014B52B279@JIMM> References: <42D75DA8348A4231894FAD014B52B279@JIMM> Message-ID: On 9/22/09, Jim MacKenzie wrote: >> I have some 2.5" SCSI drives from Thinkpads - Toshiba MK2428FB, IBM >> DVAS-2810, and an IBM DPRS-21215. > > A total aside - don't waste these drives! They are the only drive that will > fit inside the case of the Sparc Voyagers. I was wondering that, actually. It looks like I have two 17mm drives and one 19mm drive. I found the drive and cable from the old 68K Mac laptop - it looks like it's a 17mm IBM-made drive (80MB). I'm thinking one of these drives is going to end up in the laptop. I'm not sure there's clearance for the tall one, though. I remember that being a problem in the old days - too many laptop drive heights floating around. Thanks for the Voyager tip. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 22 11:38:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 09:38:00 -0700 Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" In-Reply-To: <5360F0E96E5C42BDB30F0E55A22FFB22@udvikling> References: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com>, <5360F0E96E5C42BDB30F0E55A22FFB22@udvikling> Message-ID: <4AB89AF8.722.A8D4786@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Sep 2009 at 8:55, Nico de Jong wrote: > To be honest : no idea. The FD235S is a standard FD235 with a floppy-to-SCSI adapter installed. I seem to recall that a lot of the basic formatting is hard-coded into the adapter. At any rate, I recall that we discarded the 235S as a candidate for an external drive for diskette conversion. They may well suffer from the same limitations as 3.5" USB drives--a very short list of formats that are supported. ISTR that Sun used the 235S drives for a time, so they're probably still obtainium. But, in comparison to the standard 235HF drives, they were very pricey. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 22 12:13:10 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:13:10 -0700 Subject: TI-990 in Muncie In-Reply-To: <51284.3997.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <51284.3997.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4AB905A6.3050509@bitsavers.org> William Maddox wrote: > Does anyone have actual maintenance prints for the > 990/10? I have the docs and prints for the /10 and /12, and most peripherals. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 22 12:21:34 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:21:34 -0700 Subject: TI-990 in Muncie In-Reply-To: <4AB905A6.3050509@bitsavers.org> References: <51284.3997.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4AB905A6.3050509@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AB9079E.4020802@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > William Maddox wrote: > >> Does anyone have actual maintenance prints for the >> 990/10? > > I have the docs and prints for the /10 and /12, and most peripherals. > Also, it's unlikely I will do anything with the systems and document duplicates that I have, so the lot may be available if someone were willing to make a reasonable offer for the lot in the Bay Area. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 22 12:53:18 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 10:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 5.25" USB drive - can't modify a Teac 3.5" In-Reply-To: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> References: <4ab7b280.12115e0a.41b0.6c47@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Sep 2009, Robert Stek wrote: > As has been griped about in the past, I went on an all out google search for > a 5.25" drive married to a USB adapter. Thought I almost had one when I saw [snip] > Ah, well. Looks like if it can happen at all, it would have to be > home-brewed. This sounds like a job for a microcontroller. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 22 15:21:21 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:21:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 2.5" laptop SCSI drive standards? In-Reply-To: <4AB86908.7020901@dunnington.plus.com> References: <89ED4796D99F 4DEFA62CB690F4747A8A@dell8300> <4AB83BA1.4090701@gmail.com><84713F03DEAB4EEE94AE88055344BB74@dell8300> <4AB8461E.30800@gmail.com> <16342E80176E4C188F2365781BDC5AB4@dell8300> <4AB84FAC.6030603@gmail.com> <4AB860CF.9090202@gmail.com> <20090921223533.U18587@shell.lmi.net> <4AB86908.7020901@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20090922131653.G45841@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I have a NEC D3661, which is a 118MB full-height 3.5" ESDI drive. Mine is also an NEC, so that is likely the same one. But, when 3.5" drives first came out, they were called "half-height" (relative to 5.25" drives, and because [with brackets] they fit a computer's 5.25" "half-height" drive bays) Is there a need for one, or should I let it rot in peace? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mross666 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 23 11:40:34 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:40:34 +0000 Subject: Spare H960 racks anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Title says it all... I'm in need of a few (up to 10) DEC H960 racks in decent (rust-free) shape. Anyone who can help, please reply! Failing that I'll need to get out the sandblaster and the spraygun! Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From doc at vaxen.net Wed Sep 23 11:56:37 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:56:37 -0500 Subject: Spare H960 racks anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ABA5345.9000600@vaxen.net> You're in Bolivia, or Botswana? Doc Mike Ross wrote: > Title says it all... I'm in need of a few (up to 10) DEC H960 racks in decent (rust-free) shape. Anyone who can help, please reply! > > Failing that I'll need to get out the sandblaster and the spraygun! > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From mross666 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 23 11:59:18 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:59:18 +0000 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Folks, I'd appreciate some thoughts in general, and on some specific cases, on using 50Hz DEC equipment on 60Hz power, since I've started processsing and restoring a large quantity of DEC equipment I've brought over from my UK storage to the USA: 1. Thinking about old DEC logic power supplies in general (pdp-8, -11, -12, -15 etc), is there liable to be any problem with using equipment sold in 50Hz countries on US 60Hz supplies? Obviously output voltages would be checked as a matter of course anyway! Equipment which uses motors is, I would have thought, liable to be more of a problem, for instance: 2. Tapes. Would 9-track (e.g. TU45, TU16 etc.) tapes be likely to be a problem? It occurs to me the transport speed might be a little off... 3. DECtapes (& LINCtapes) : I would imagine they would be less of a problem; they're self-clocking and practically indestructible - you can almost read a DECtape with a toothbrush, some tinfoil, and a set of bicycle pedals! Thoughts? 4. Disks. Biggest problem I would imagine. RK05s I know have different motor pulleys - they're stamped 50Hz or 60Hz. I would imagine running a 50Hz unit on 60Hz wouldn't work, the heads would never load because it would never be detected going at the correct speed. And even if they did load there might be air bearing issues due to incorrect speed. I have around 7 or 8 50Hz RK05s, but only 3 60Hz, so... does anyone have any spare 60Hz RK05 pulleys, or motors with 60Hz pulleys attached? What about RL and RX drives? Similar problems? Many thanks for any advice Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1 From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 12:25:10 2009 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe=2DJacques?=) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 19:25:10 +0200 Subject: SPARCClassic won't turn on, clicking sound Message-ID: <8336542f0909231025v3c4ab7f6o8849c8d3b01088ff@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I've just plugged in a SPARCClassic to 240 V 50 Hz AC (brought it with me from a 60 Hz country). Despite the power supply being rated for this, it won't start in the traditional sense of the word. The speaker makes a clicking noise when I press the power button and until I turn it off. Inside the case, everything appears intact... Thanks, - Alex From g-wright at att.net Wed Sep 23 12:28:57 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:28:57 +0000 Subject: TI-990 , later drawings In-Reply-To: References: <51284.3997.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <092320091728.27819.4ABA5AD8000DA37700006CAB22243651029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Christian Corti : -------------- > On Tue, 22 Sep 2009, William Maddox wrote: > > The system looks to be a 990/10 CPU and a CD 1400 > > cartridge disk drive in a short pedestal rack. > > > > Does anyone have actual maintenance prints for the > > 990/10? I looked on bitsavers, and there is a tech > > manual with theory of operation, but no prints. > ....... snip ..... > I have the print sets; they came with the half dozen of 990/10 we > got some time ago. We also have some 990/12 (also with print sets) and > 990/4. > Christian, could you look at the print sets that came with the 990/12 and see if they cover the 990/12a or A13 chassis I have a 990/12a which is a later model. Has a 13 slot cage with the cards in a horizontal position. The power supply is dead . I have not been able to find the drawings for it. The power supply is a single board switch mode supply with only connectors to the back plane and power in. Very simple looking. The earlier systems seem the have much more complicated power supplies. - Jerry Christian From fryers at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 14:56:55 2009 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 20:56:55 +0100 Subject: SPARCClassic won't turn on, clicking sound In-Reply-To: <8336542f0909231025v3c4ab7f6o8849c8d3b01088ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <8336542f0909231025v3c4ab7f6o8849c8d3b01088ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2009/9/23 Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques : > Hello all, > > I've just plugged in a SPARCClassic to 240 V 50 Hz AC (brought it with > me from a 60 Hz country). With a SMPS, the AC will hit a bridge rectifier after passing a simple filtering network. I would be very surprised if the frequency is your problem. There may be a switch or jumper for mains voltage, but if this is incorrect you would probably know about it by now. > Despite the power supply being rated for this, it won't start in the > traditional sense of the word. ?The speaker makes a clicking noise > when I press the power button and until I turn it off. > > Inside the case, everything appears intact... A hiccuping SMPS. There could well be a fault within the SMPS its self. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 23 15:02:44 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:02:44 -0700 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 4:59 PM +0000 9/23/09, Mike Ross wrote: >I'd appreciate some thoughts in general, and on some specific cases, >on using 50Hz DEC equipment on 60Hz power, since I've started >processsing and restoring a large quantity of DEC equipment I've >brought over from my UK storage to the USA: It makes me bit nervous. Does any of it have settings for 50/60Hz? Timing might be an issue. I have one thought, what would it take to get/build a 60Hz to 50Hz power converter that would give you the right frequency and voltages? I used to work on a lot of computer equipment that required 400Hz power, and prior to that I was an electrician and actually maintained the power converters. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 23 15:22:29 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:22:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090923132023.J90927@shell.lmi.net> > It makes me bit nervous. Does any of it have settings for 50/60Hz? > Timing might be an issue. Howzbout a large UPS, with 60Hz charging side and 50Hz inverter side? Although that can't match the sound [and smell?] of an appropriate motor/generator. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 23 15:29:26 2009 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:29:26 -0700 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200909231329.26282.lbickley@bickleywest.com> At 4:59 PM +0000 9/23/09, Mike Ross wrote: > >I'd appreciate some thoughts in general, and on some specific cases, > >on using 50Hz DEC equipment on 60Hz power, since I've started > >processsing and restoring a large quantity of DEC equipment I've > >brought over from my UK storage to the USA: The Computer History Museum's 1401 restoration project has had a great deal of experience with this issue. The first 1401 restored was from Germany - and was configured for 50Hz power. Subsequent to analyzing the issue, it was determined that the best solution was to use a 60Hz -> 50Hz converter. The reason, there were way too many issues of converting the 1401 itself. IIRC, here's the issues to consider: All items containing cores and windings (motors, fans, transformers, etc.) are typically line frequency specific. Some are not - but one has to check them all! Ferroresonant power supplies are almost always "tuned" for a specific line frequency - and will do "bad" things when used at an incorrect frequency. Some switching power supplies support both 50Hz and 60Hz (or even 400Hz) power - but, again, one has to check the specs... Line clocks are tied to the line frequency - and this could affect some software (but this is usually not a huge issue - but it has to be considered). Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Sep 23 15:31:10 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:31:10 +0200 Subject: Spare H960 racks anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090923203110.GA3789@Update.UU.SE> > > Failing that I'll need to get out the sandblaster and the spraygun! > It's what I did with mine, a bit of work of course. More so with 10 racks :) They seem to rust easily. /P From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 23 15:33:53 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 13:33:53 -0700 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross > Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 9:59 AM > To: cctech cctech > Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz > > > Folks, > > I'd appreciate some thoughts in general, and on some specific cases, on > using 50Hz DEC equipment on 60Hz power, since I've started processsing > and restoring a large quantity of DEC equipment I've brought over from > my UK storage to the USA: > > 1. Thinking about old DEC logic power supplies in general (pdp-8, -11, > -12, -15 etc), is there liable to be any problem with using equipment > sold in 50Hz countries on US 60Hz supplies? Obviously output voltages > would be checked as a matter of course anyway! If you're looking at linear power supplies, take a look at the badging on the transformers. According to our EE here, many if not most were actually rated for 50/60 Hz operation. They run a bit warmer at 50 Hz. Switchers tend to be very accommodating, AFAIK. Most of them seem to just rectify the AC and feed the switching circuitry with it. > > Equipment which uses motors is, I would have thought, liable to be more > of a problem, for instance: > > 2. Tapes. Would 9-track (e.g. TU45, TU16 etc.) tapes be likely to be a > problem? It occurs to me the transport speed might be a little off... > > 3. DECtapes (& LINCtapes) : I would imagine they would be less of a > problem; they're self-clocking and practically indestructible - you can > almost read a DECtape with a toothbrush, some tinfoil, and a set of > bicycle pedals! Thoughts? One thing that really helps with DECtape drives (at least TU56) is that the motors are not run off the AC line, but from DC and internally generated waveforms. > > 4. Disks. Biggest problem I would imagine. RK05s I know have different > motor pulleys - they're stamped 50Hz or 60Hz. I would imagine running a > 50Hz unit on 60Hz wouldn't work, the heads would never load because it > would never be detected going at the correct speed. And even if they > did load there might be air bearing issues due to incorrect speed. I > have around 7 or 8 50Hz RK05s, but only 3 60Hz, so... does anyone have > any spare 60Hz RK05 pulleys, or motors with 60Hz pulleys attached? What > about RL and RX drives? Similar problems? > > Many thanks for any advice > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Bing(tm) brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. > Try it now. > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea= > TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 23 15:58:11 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:58:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ross" at Sep 23, 9 04:59:18 pm Message-ID: > 1. Thinking about old DEC logic power supplies in general (pdp-8=2C -11=2C = > -12=2C -15 etc)=2C is there liable to be any problem with using equipment s= > old in 50Hz countries on US 60Hz supplies? Obviously output voltages would = > be checked as a matter of course anyway! In general, a mains transformer can be used on a higher frequency (sensibly higher, I am not talking about MHz :-)) without problems. A PSU that works on 50Hz will work on 60Hz. AFAIK the only change on DEC PSUs was for the mains voltage (2 primary windings on the trasnformer, connected in series for 230V and parallel for 115V). The exception is ferroresonant supplies. These have a winding on the transformer which is resonated to a harmonic (normaly 3rd IIRC) of the mains frequency by an exeternal capacitor. Normally convertiny one of these involves a replacement transformer. And DEC did use them/ The RX01/RX02 floppy drives, for example. > > Equipment which uses motors is=2C I would have thought=2C liable to be more= > of a problem=2C for instance: > > 2. Tapes. Would 9-track (e.g. TU45=2C TU16 etc.) tapes be likely to be a pr= > oblem? It occurs to me the transport speed might be a little off... I thought all the magtapes used DC motors with electronic control (in which case there's no isssue at all). > > 4. Disks. Biggest problem I would imagine. RK05s I know have different moto= > r pulleys - they're stamped 50Hz or 60Hz. I would imagine running a 50Hz un= YEs. Same with one otuer drives too. > it on 60Hz wouldn't work=2C the heads would never load because it would nev= > er be detected going at the correct speed. And even if they did load there = > might be air bearing issues due to incorrect speed. I have around 7 or 8 50= > Hz RK05s=2C but only 3 60Hz=2C so... does anyone have any spare 60Hz RK05 p= Find a freind with an engineer's lathe and get a few turned up? You have a 60Hz pulley which could be used to take measurements from > ulleys=2C or motors with 60Hz pulleys attached? What about RL and RX drives= > ? Similar problems? I am prety sure RL's don't care at all. RX's (at least RX01 and RX02) are the igest prole,. Not only do you need new pulleys on the spindle motors, but the PSU uses a ferroresonat transformer (see above). My be easier to find a US (60Hz) unit -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 23 16:05:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:05:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <200909231329.26282.lbickley@bickleywest.com> from "Lyle Bickley" at Sep 23, 9 01:29:26 pm Message-ID: > All items containing cores and windings (motors, fans, > transformers, etc.) are typically line frequency specific. Some > are not - but one has to check them all! Hmmm... Too small a core would make a transformer that would run on 60Hz but overheat on 50Hz, but I can't think of how you'd do the reverse, at least without a lot of work. In other words (apart form ferroresonant PSUs!), the mains transformers should be fine. And of course the smoothing capacitors will be larger-than-necessary for 60Hz, but that's no problem either. Fens will run faster on 60Hz. I don;t think this is a prolem. Certainly all the AC fans I've seen are rated for 50/60Hz. Disk drive spindle motors are the main problem, of course > > Ferroresonant power supplies are almost always "tuned" for a specific > line frequency - and will do "bad" things when used at an incorrect > frequency. Indeed. > > Some switching power supplies support both 50Hz and 60Hz (or even > 400Hz) power - but, again, one has to check the specs... A switcher starts y rectifying (either plain rectification or a voltage doubler) the incoming mains to get DC. It's hard to make that work on 50Hz and not on 60Hz :-). Some SMPUs have a small linear PSU to start them up, this is unlikely to have problems either. > > Line clocks are tied to the line frequency - and this could affect > some software (but this is usually not a huge issue - but it has > to be considered). This one is trivial in that it's a logic-level signal needing almost no power to drive it. If you can't correct it in software, it's not too hard to make a circuit using a crystal oscillator and divider chain to toggle the LTC line at the right frequency. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 23 16:39:13 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:39:13 +0200 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090923233913.be63efc2.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009 16:59:18 +0000 Mike Ross wrote: > 1. Thinking about old DEC logic power supplies in general (pdp-8, -11, -12, -15 etc), is there liable to be any problem with using equipment sold in 50Hz countries on US 60Hz supplies? Obviously output voltages would be checked as a matter of course anyway! Depends. SMPSUs normaly don't depend on mains frequency. The first thing they do with mains AC is to rectify it to DC... With linear PSUs with transformers it may work with a slightly different mains frequency. > Equipment which uses motors is, I would have thought, liable to be more of a problem, for instance: Depends on the type of motor. There are AC motors where the RPM depends on the mains frequency. Universal and DC motors, obviously, don't depend on mains frequency. Especially in tapes there are DC servo motors common. Usually there speed is controled by a closed loop contoler. Also keep in mind things like line time clock... In short: There is no short answer. You have to check each device individually. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cipkat at alice.it Wed Sep 23 16:47:20 2009 From: cipkat at alice.it (Angelo) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:47:20 +0200 Subject: Central Point Option Board vs Deluxe Option Board Message-ID: <4ABA9768.7000505@alice.it> Hello, you still have Central Point Deluxe Option Boards? From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 19:02:28 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 17:02:28 -0700 Subject: Spare H960 racks anyone? In-Reply-To: <20090923203110.GA3789@Update.UU.SE> References: <20090923203110.GA3789@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I saw one at Next Step Recycling 2 in Springfield Oregon a couple of days ago. It was sitting out front with what looked like Twinax breakout panels installed in it. I didn't ask the price but stuff there is generally cheap. Definitely a DEC cabinet. I can check on it when I am back down on the 4 th of October if interested. Peaches, paxton On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> >> Failing that I'll need to get out the sandblaster and the spraygun! >> > > It's what I did with mine, a bit of work of course. More so with 10 racks :) They seem to rust easily. > > /P > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From evan at snarc.net Wed Sep 23 22:50:17 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:50:17 -0400 Subject: F/S: Serial link for Psion Series 3 Message-ID: <4ABAEC79.9040608@snarc.net> I have an extra serial link for the Psion Series 3. It's in original packaging with manuals, software, and hardware. Someone make me an offer. Located in NJ, USA. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Sep 23 23:20:15 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:20:15 -0700 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 omnibus "top connector" blocks (or reasonable substitute) In-Reply-To: <6a0c88bbc4536c51f2c3e5f68213fa03.squirrel@www.update.uu.se> References: <4AB5BDE8.80103@mail.msu.edu> <6a0c88bbc4536c51f2c3e5f68213fa03.squirrel@www.update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4ABAF37F.3090003@mail.msu.edu> pontus at Update.UU.SE wrote: >> Picked up an RK8E along with an interesting PDP-8/e system (well, >> interesting in that it says "digital equipment international ltd, galway >> ireland" on the front panel, which is something I've not seen before on >> a DEC product. Otherwise it's your standard 8/e...) >> > > Nice, would you treat us with a picture of the front panel? It's fun to > see the different versions. > Sure. I put up a couple of pics at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/pdp-8/. Enjoy :). > >> The RK8E's missing the top connector blocks and I don't have any spares >> of these; are these unobtanium? Anyone have any to spare, or have >> suggestions on how best to make my own? >> > > Are these the same as the ones connecting memory with driver and > sense/inhibit boards? I might have some to spare at home. > Yeah, they look to be the same. If you do have some to spare, let me know. Thanks! - Josh From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Sep 23 23:22:38 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:22:38 -0500 Subject: What's up with this case? Message-ID: <6dbe3c380909232122u259b3185v25ac515ac6be3ea3@mail.gmail.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-Personal-Computer-AT-Model-5170-System_W0QQitemZ250503424592QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a532aea50&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 It looks like a 5170 case wrapped in even more metal. brian From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 23 23:47:33 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 21:47:33 -0700 Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380909232122u259b3185v25ac515ac6be3ea3@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380909232122u259b3185v25ac515ac6be3ea3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 11:22 PM -0500 9/23/09, Brian Lanning wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-Personal-Computer-AT-Model-5170-System_W0QQitemZ250503424592QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a532aea50&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 > >It looks like a 5170 case wrapped in even more metal. > >brian I think it is just a simple "tower case" for a desktop. I have a DEC tower case that was intended for something like the Dec Professional like that. At least I assume it is not some sort of TEMPEST case, but that would be my second guess. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 24 00:49:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 22:49:40 -0700 Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380909232122u259b3185v25ac515ac6be3ea3@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4ABAA604.28668.12886FFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Sep 2009 at 21:47, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think it is just a simple "tower case" for a desktop. I have a DEC > tower case that was intended for something like the Dec Professional > like that. > > At least I assume it is not some sort of TEMPEST case, but that would > be my second guess. Before there were tower cases for PC, people still wanted the blessed great hulking AT cases off their desktops. Check an Inmac catalog of the time and you'll see various arrangements for converting an AT case to a floor-mounted "tower". Some were very cheap; little more than a plastic stand; others were more substantial. --Chuck P.S. You do remember Inmac, don't you? Lots of interesting stuff for the office/commercial PC user, all overpriced. But they'd build cables for you and some of the most curious gizmos. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Sep 24 00:56:00 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 06:56:00 +0100 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <190762CD3E1D470D9ABD0D49DF38896F@EDIConsultingLtd.local> It's best to check the label on the PSU. SMPU's quite often cover the voltage & current ranges with out changing anything. In the case of linear supplies it's usually a strap on the transformer that connects two 110v windings in parallel for 110v and series for 240v. I can't recall any options for frequency changes on a DEC system except for transformers with a cap. across the transformer and line time clock options. Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 23 September 2009 21:03 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; cctech cctech Subject: Re: 50Hz vs. 60Hz At 4:59 PM +0000 9/23/09, Mike Ross wrote: >I'd appreciate some thoughts in general, and on some specific cases, >on using 50Hz DEC equipment on 60Hz power, since I've started >processsing and restoring a large quantity of DEC equipment I've >brought over from my UK storage to the USA: It makes me bit nervous. Does any of it have settings for 50/60Hz? Timing might be an issue. I have one thought, what would it take to get/build a 60Hz to 50Hz power converter that would give you the right frequency and voltages? I used to work on a lot of computer equipment that required 400Hz power, and prior to that I was an electrician and actually maintained the power converters. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jws at jwsss.com Wed Sep 23 17:04:38 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 15:04:38 -0700 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ABA9B76.2050209@jwsss.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >> 4. Disks. Biggest problem I would imagine. RK05s I know have different moto= >> r pulleys - they're stamped 50Hz or 60Hz. I would imagine running a 50Hz un= >> > > YEs. Same with one otuer drives too. > > >> it on 60Hz wouldn't work=2C the heads would never load because it would nev= >> er be detected going at the correct speed. And even if they did load there = >> might be air bearing issues due to incorrect speed. I have around 7 or 8 50= >> Hz RK05s=2C but only 3 60Hz=2C so... does anyone have any spare 60Hz RK05 p= >> > > Find a freind with an engineer's lathe and get a few turned up? You have > a 60Hz pulley which could be used to take measurements from > > The conversion of the drives we did for shipment to south america involved a different spindle pulley and a different belt. The belts were located locally here that were equivalent to the CDC drives prior to any conversions we did because they sold them for such a ridiculous price. the motors themselves were strapped easily to run on the different frequency and voltage, as I recall. However the pulley was another matter. The ones that we got drawings for and had duplicated were worked from aluminum stock with quite a few processes to harden them and form the drive surface so as not to eat the drive belt. The shape of the pulley causes the drive belt to ride in the center when properly done, there are no "edges" to retain it. If you have or can get mechanical drawings of the pulley for either frequency, I'd think you could figure out the other. In this case maybe get the 60 hz pulley, and scale it to the 50 hz size. There is no adjustment for spinning the disk stack at a different speed, it still goes at the same angular rate regardless of frequency. The electronics are running from DC which adjusting the power supply compensates for. The other issue is to change out muffin fans for the 60 hz model. I don't know if you drive has 120v (or 220v) and are AC, or run off of +12. Jim From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Sep 24 03:24:37 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:24:37 +0200 Subject: Looking for PDP-8 omnibus "top connector" blocks (or reasonable substitute) In-Reply-To: <4ABAF37F.3090003@mail.msu.edu> References: <4AB5BDE8.80103@mail.msu.edu> <6a0c88bbc4536c51f2c3e5f68213fa03.squirrel@www.update.uu.se> <4ABAF37F.3090003@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20090924082437.GA15325@Update.UU.SE> > > > >Are these the same as the ones connecting memory with driver and > >sense/inhibit boards? I might have some to spare at home. > Yeah, they look to be the same. If you do have some to spare, let > me know. Thanks! I checked and I have three loose ones, I onestly thought I had more. I must make sure I don't need these myself. You need four I think ? Kind Regards, Pontus. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Sep 24 04:05:09 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 02:05:09 -0700 Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380909232122u259b3185v25ac515ac6be3ea3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4ABB3645.2040201@jwsss.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > At least I assume it is not some sort of TEMPEST case, but that would > be my second guess. > > Zane There was a question about a Tempest AT some time back and photos. The case in question looked a lot like the IBM Industrial series if you have seen them, but still maintaining the desktop look. I suspect that this is some third party adaptation case, which would have accomodated not only the IBM unit, but Everex, and a lot others. Jim From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Sep 24 12:07:55 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:07:55 -0400 Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brian writes: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-Personal-Computer-AT-Model-5170-System_W0QQitemZ250503424592QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a532aea50&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 > It looks like a 5170 case wrapped in even more metal. Sometimes this is for tempest compliance although I would think that if a 5170 was to be made tempest compliant, you'd need some kind of baffle over the front. And the tempest people were always real big on putting CRT's in metal cans too. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 24 12:17:38 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 13:17:38 -0400 Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 24, 2009, at 1:07 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-Personal-Computer-AT-Model-5170- >> System_W0QQitemZ250503424592QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0? >> hash=item3a532aea50&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 >> It looks like a 5170 case wrapped in even more metal. > > Sometimes this is for tempest compliance although I would think > that if a 5170 was to be made tempest compliant, you'd need some > kind of baffle over the front. And the tempest people were always > real big on putting CRT's in metal cans too. Weren't the insides of those plastic front pieces coated with that gray or dark red spray-on anti-EMI stuff? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 24 12:45:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 10:45:56 -0700 Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4ABB4DE4.22636.706AFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2009 at 13:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > Weren't the insides of those plastic front pieces coated with that > gray or dark red spray-on anti-EMI stuff? Could be, but that was to meet FCC section 15, subpart B requirements. The metallic paints (some was just zinc) were not qualified for Tempest. The big hole I see is where the disk drives are visible. That would never be Tempest-rated. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 24 13:17:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:17:05 -0400 Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: <4ABB4DE4.22636.706AFD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4ABB4DE4.22636.706AFD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3EDE4429-50EB-4F65-A21C-429F5512EAAA@neurotica.com> On Sep 24, 2009, at 1:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Weren't the insides of those plastic front pieces coated with that >> gray or dark red spray-on anti-EMI stuff? > > Could be, but that was to meet FCC section 15, subpart B > requirements. The metallic paints (some was just zinc) were not > qualified for Tempest. The big hole I see is where the disk drives > are visible. That would never be Tempest-rated. Ahh, good point! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mross666 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 24 13:51:45 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:51:45 +0000 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to all those who have responded on 50Hz vs. 60Hz So to summarise: 1. Most PSUs are unlikely to present a problem, especially since we're going from lower to higher frequency. 2. Tape drives are likely to run just fine. 3. Disk drives will be as expected (pulley issues) for older drives, but RL should work?? 4. The big 'gotcha' appears to be ferroresonant PSUs. I knew those would be a problem, but I must admit I didn't know DEC used them. OK, so we've been told the RX01/02 is ferroresonant. Think carefully folks - are there any other DEC PSUs that use ferroresonant transformers? I'm thinking mostly about logic PSUs from early pdp-8/12/15 to later 11s - 11/34, 11/73, pdp-8a etc, but any data on peripherals which used ferroresonants would also be welcome! Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 24 14:22:59 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 15:22:59 -0400 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 24, 2009, at 2:51 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > 3. Disk drives will be as expected (pulley issues) for older > drives, but RL should work?? The RL Technical Description document states that the drives must be switched between the two voltage ranges, but that they operate on either 50Hz or 60Hz. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Sep 24 14:24:33 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:24:33 -0700 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ABBC771.5050901@brouhaha.com> Mike Ross wrote: > Biggest problem I would imagine. RK05s I know have different > motor pulleys - they're stamped 50Hz or 60Hz. [...] > What about RL and RX drives? Similar problems? RX01/RX02 definitely need different pulleys for 50 vs. 60 Hz. Eric From mross666 at hotmail.com Thu Sep 24 16:07:46 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:07:46 +0000 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm currently restoring a pdp-15: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2033045&id=1528659644&l=5d2b00be93 This one will need a fair bit of cosmetic restoration; there's enough surface rust on some of the panels to make a respray a good idea. Question: does anyone have any idea how to reproduce the rough / textured / 'spattered' appearance that DEC gave their cabinet paintwork? How was it done in the factory? See the last image in the album to see what I mean. Thanks! Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 24 16:11:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:11:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <4ABA9B76.2050209@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Sep 23, 9 03:04:38 pm Message-ID: > The conversion of the drives we did for shipment to south america > involved a different spindle pulley and a different belt. The belts At least one type of drive that I've worked on (and I can't remember what it was) had 2 sets (of 4) screw holes for the motor. They were offset by 45 dgrees from each other _and_ one set put the motor further from the spindle pulley than the other set. To do the 50/60Hz conversion you had to change the motor pulley, then unbolt the motor and re-mount it using the other set of holes. The difference in distance between the 2 pulleys meant you used the same drive belt for both frequencies. > were located locally here that were equivalent to the CDC drives prior > to any conversions we did because they sold them for such a ridiculous > price. > > the motors themselves were strapped easily to run on the different > frequency and voltage, as I recall. However the pulley was another IIRC most (old) DEC drives used 115V motors, and used the primary of the mains transformer as an autotransformer to run them off 230V mains. The frequency difference wasn't a problem for the motor, it ran fine on either freqeuncy, just at a different speed. > matter. The ones that we got drawings for and had duplicated were > worked from aluminum stock with quite a few processes to harden them and > form the drive surface so as not to eat the drive belt. The shape of > the pulley causes the drive belt to ride in the center when properly > done, there are no "edges" to retain it. If you have or can get Known as 'crowning', at least over here. It's surping the first time you see it, but the pulley is smaller in diameter at the edges than in the mdidle. The belt runs on the largest diameter part -- and mves itself there when the pulleys turn. If you naively make a pulley with a smaller diamter in the middle (with the idea being that he larger diameter edges will keep the belt in place), the belt will fly off. > mechanical drawings of the pulley for either frequency, I'd think you > could figure out the other. In this case maybe get the 60 hz pulley, > and scale it to the 50 hz size. IIRC the OP has at least one 60Hz drive. Which maks life a lot easier. It shouldn't be too hard to turn a replacement pulley. I suspect you can get the profile either by using a form tool, or by swinging the cutting tool as in a sperical turning attachment. > > There is no adjustment for spinning the disk stack at a different speed, > it still goes at the same angular rate regardless of frequency. The > electronics are running from DC which adjusting the power supply > compensates for. > > The other issue is to change out muffin fans for the 60 hz model. I > don't know if you drive has 120v (or 220v) and are AC, or run off of +12. > Jim The RK05 has a tangential lower fan with a capacitor-run motor. All RK05s have 115V fans [1] and AFAIK there's no change when you change frequency either. [1] Runn of the mains transformer as an autotransformer for 230V mains, of course. The were wired on the 'live' end of the primary winding with the result that the motor insulation has to stand 230V. And some don't. RK05 blowers catching fire is not uncommon over here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 24 16:14:59 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:14:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: <4ABAA604.28668.12886FFD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 23, 9 10:49:40 pm Message-ID: > P.S. You do remember Inmac, don't you? Lots of interesting stuff Indeed I do (they existed in the UK too). I was sad when they were no more > for the office/commercial PC user, all overpriced. But they'd build > cables for you and some of the most curious gizmos. They sold excellent floppy disks (never had any problems with them, which is more than I can say of some other brands). And a good set of printer ribbons, I remember getting Teletype 43 ribbons from them... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 24 16:22:22 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 22:22:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ross" at Sep 24, 9 06:51:45 pm Message-ID: > 4. The big 'gotcha' appears to be ferroresonant PSUs. I knew those would be= > a problem=2C but I must admit I didn't know DEC used them. OK=2C so we've = > been told the RX01/02 is ferroresonant. Think carefully folks - are there a= The RX01/02 is _certainly_ a ferroresonant PSU. > ny other DEC PSUs that use ferroresonant transformers? I'm thinking mostly = > about logic PSUs from early pdp-8/12/15 to later 11s - 11/34=2C 11/73=2C pd= > p-8a etc=2C but any data on peripherals which used ferroresonants would als= > o be welcome! The PDP8/e and PDP8/a do not use ferroresonat PSUs (I have both machines...) Nor does the 11/40, 11/45, 11/34 or any Q-bus 11 AFAIK. I can check the '12 prints if you are not sure. The safest thing to do is to look at the prints and the mains transformer. A ferroresonant PSU will have a capacitor connected to a winding on the transofrmer iwth nothing else connected to it. If you see that, take care. DEC used Diabloe Model 30 drives at one point (RK02, RK03). And at least one DIablo PSU for said drives was a ferroresonant one. I don't think DEC ever used that PSU, though, they used one of their own design with a conventional mains trasnsoformer and electronic regulators (so no prolems). Actually, IIRC the Dailo ferroresonant PSU was one of the few I've seen with taps on the resonant winding so it could be strapped for 50 or 60Hz. -tony From doc at vaxen.net Thu Sep 24 16:54:56 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:54:56 -0500 Subject: Spare H960 racks anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ABBEAB0.40602@vaxen.net> Seriously, I do have some good H960s, but it would help a hell of a lot if you'd say where you are. Doc Mike Ross wrote: > Title says it all... I'm in need of a few (up to 10) DEC H960 racks in decent (rust-free) shape. Anyone who can help, please reply! > > Failing that I'll need to get out the sandblaster and the spraygun! > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 24 16:57:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:57:39 -0700 Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: References: <4ABAA604.28668.12886FFD@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 23, 9 10:49:40 pm, Message-ID: <4ABB88E3.614.156DD41@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2009 at 22:14, Tony Duell wrote: > They sold excellent floppy disks (never had any problems with them, > which is more than I can say of some other brands). And a good set of > printer ribbons, I remember getting Teletype 43 ribbons from them... You could tell their cables from a mile away--they were blue, when everyone else was beige, grey or black. I think Xerox also briefly ran a "business supply" operation around the same time. CDC also had retail stores, but none close to my location (that I can remember). Both offered some great deals at their "going out of business" sales. Did Tab also run a similar operation? And then there was Moore for just about any kind of paper you needed--I used to buy lots of tractor feed green-bar paper from them. --Chuck From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 24 18:45:37 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:45:37 -0700 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz References: Message-ID: From: "Mike Ross" > 4. The big 'gotcha' appears to be ferroresonant PSUs. I knew those > would be a problem, but I must admit I didn't know DEC used them. > OK, so we've been told the RX01/02 is ferroresonant. Think carefully > folks - are there any other DEC PSUs that use ferroresonant > transformers? I'm thinking mostly about logic PSUs from early > pdp-8/12/15 to later 11s - 11/34, 11/73, pdp-8a etc, but any data > on peripherals which used ferroresonants would also be welcome! I know the 8/i uses a 704 ferroresonant supply, and I'd guess most PDP-8 cpus of that vintage or earlier. I'm unsure about the 8/L's 718 power supply. (Normally there'd be a 50Hz variant described, but I don't see one, but I don't have a proper schematic for the supply, either.) The PDP-12 uses a 724 power supply, which also has a resonator. The PDP-8/i and PDP-12 seem have a resonating capacitor supplied with the transformer for the intended configuration, so it may suffice just to change the wiring or the capacitor. The 8/a used a supply which has a different transformer part number in the 50Hz version. Vince From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Sep 24 22:19:40 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:19:40 -0700 Subject: Looking for rackmount rails for RX02 Message-ID: <4ABC36CC.6050109@mail.msu.edu> I have an RX02 drive currently mounted in an external enclosure that I'd like to mount in my 11/40's rack. Anyone have a set of rails for these? Thanks! Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 25 01:10:32 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 02:10:32 -0400 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5FD003A8-7172-4CCA-B96C-D161B0233BE4@neurotica.com> On Sep 24, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> matter. The ones that we got drawings for and had duplicated were >> worked from aluminum stock with quite a few processes to harden >> them and >> form the drive surface so as not to eat the drive belt. The shape of >> the pulley causes the drive belt to ride in the center when properly >> done, there are no "edges" to retain it. If you have or can get > > Known as 'crowning', at least over here. > > It's surping the first time you see it, but the pulley is smaller in > diameter at the edges than in the mdidle. The belt runs on the largest > diameter part -- and mves itself there when the pulleys turn. If you > naively make a pulley with a smaller diamter in the middle (with > the idea > being that he larger diameter edges will keep the belt in place), the > belt will fly off. It's called "crowning" here too. How in blazes does that work? I've always wondered about it. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 25 01:55:28 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 23:55:28 -0700 Subject: pulley crowning / was Re: 50Hz vs. 60Hz References: <5FD003A8-7172-4CCA-B96C-D161B0233BE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ABC6960.51BB6E@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > It's called "crowning" here too. How in blazes does that work? > I've always wondered about it. FWIW, this shows up with a search for "pulley crowning": http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/crowning.htm (click thru to the answer page). It looks familiar, I think somebody else pointed to the same page during a previous discussion of this topic on the list. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 25 02:15:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 00:15:01 -0700 Subject: pulley crowning / was Re: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <4ABC6960.51BB6E@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4ABC6960.51BB6E@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4ABC0B85.17832.3554EB7@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Sep 2009 at 23:55, Brent Hilpert wrote: > FWIW, this shows up with a search for "pulley crowning": > > http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/crowning.htm > > (click thru to the answer page). It looks familiar, I think somebody > else pointed to the same page during a previous discussion of this > topic on the list. Probably a couple of years ago when discussing turning a new pulley for a 50Hz-to60Hz floppy conversion. (On my floppy conversion, I used a flanged pulley, which worked just fine). I've seen lots of explanations of the crowned pulley, but none makes me feel really good about it. Apparently a stiff flat belt with no elasticity will not work. I've seen statements to the effect that the crown has to be a smooth radius, but I've also seen plain old "tracking sleeves" attached to flat pulleys for the same purpose. I wonder if crowning works because the force on a flat belt is the least at the top of the crown than on the smaller sides. I dunno. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Sep 25 04:51:58 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:51:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Sep 2009, Mike Ross wrote: > I'd appreciate some thoughts in general, and on some specific cases, on > using 50Hz DEC equipment on 60Hz power, since I've started processsing > and restoring a large quantity of DEC equipment I've brought over from > my UK storage to the USA: The simplest solution: Buy a UPS and tell it to output 230V/50Hz... Christian From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 05:10:00 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 06:10:00 -0400 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <5FD003A8-7172-4CCA-B96C-D161B0233BE4@neurotica.com> References: <5FD003A8-7172-4CCA-B96C-D161B0233BE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ABC96F8.60500@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 24, 2009, at 5:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> matter. The ones that we got drawings for and had duplicated were >>> worked from aluminum stock with quite a few processes to harden them and >>> form the drive surface so as not to eat the drive belt. The shape of >>> the pulley causes the drive belt to ride in the center when properly >>> done, there are no "edges" to retain it. If you have or can get >> >> Known as 'crowning', at least over here. >> >> It's surping the first time you see it, but the pulley is smaller in >> diameter at the edges than in the mdidle. The belt runs on the largest >> diameter part -- and mves itself there when the pulleys turn. If you >> naively make a pulley with a smaller diamter in the middle (with the idea >> being that he larger diameter edges will keep the belt in place), the >> belt will fly off. > > It's called "crowning" here too. How in blazes does that work? I've > always wondered about it. The same way train wheels work. Train wheels are of slightly smaller diameter to the outside edge than they are on the inside edge. Makes the train sit between the rails rather than on them. Along the same lines, the capstan sits in the middle of the belt instead of on both outer edges. Peace... Sridhar From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 25 07:55:33 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 05:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents Message-ID: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> This is one of those things that has bugged me for a while - figured I'd see if anyone else noticed. Many documents on Bitsavers are missing the blank pages. Now, this isn't much of an issue if you are just reading them on a computer, but they cause havoc when you go to print them out. Call me a tree-killer, but when I'm working on a complicated machine, and find the manual on Bitsavers, I like to print it out, three-hole punch it, and put it in a binder - this way I can work from it, add notes to it, etc, as I restore/repair a device. With blank pages (i.e. the backs of the last page of a section) missing, when you print double-sided, it throws off the page layout. Sometimes this results in a two-page diagram being printed on the front and back of a single sheet of paper. Or the exploded diagram and the parts list on opposite sides of a page. So, my solution is to go through the document ahead of time on the computer, page by page, and write down the page ranges that are contiguous, and printing odd numbers of pages together to recreate the blank backs at the end of the section. For example, for the KSR35 Teletype Tech manual, volume 1: 1-3 (single sided), 4-14, 15-26, 27 (reduce), 28-66, 67-113, 114-122, 123-157, 158-164, 165-183, 184-192, 193-217. Maybe this is just me being a bit obsessive - but I'm sure someone else has run into this. I'm just wondering - were these blank pages removed intentionally for some reason? Did the scanning software automatically ignore them? Or am I the only vintage computer geek out there who owns a massive duplexing laser printer? -Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 25 09:25:11 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:25:11 -0500 Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents In-Reply-To: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090925092409.04da5790@mail.threedee.com> At 07:55 AM 9/25/2009, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >Maybe this is just me being a bit obsessive - but I'm sure someone else has run into this. I'm just wondering - were these blank pages removed intentionally for some reason? Did the scanning software automatically ignore them? Or am I the only vintage computer geek out there who owns a massive duplexing laser printer? Sure, many scanning packages automatically remove blank pages. They'll also make mistakes at that when bleed-through leaves an image on the other side. - John From jgessling at yahoo.com Fri Sep 25 09:42:07 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sams PhotoFacts Message-ID: <992953.23328.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Maybe you all know about PhotoFacts but this was new to me. I was spending some time at the library yesterday and noticed a huge wall of (moslty black) binders labelled PhotoFact. I guess they've been there all along but I'd never really looked. They are schematics and service info for electronic products. Mostly radios and TV's it looks like. I got the index from the reference desk and looked up the oldest electronic device I have, an Emerson portable tube radio model 558. Sure enough the schematic and some service information was there. I believe it's from 1947. At the other end of the binders the newest thing I found was from 2006. I wondered if there were any computer manuals in there. I think there are, I found one for a Compaq portable and some Gateway system, there are also some Zenith data systems items. The binders make it hard to get the pages flat on the copier, but it looks like the pages could be removed and replaced. Anyway $0.60 for copying the four pages was a lot cheaper than the twenty bucks some internet guy wants for that manual, and that one's a copy too. When I have more time, I'll go back and look further. Regards, Jim From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Sep 25 09:46:06 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:46:06 -0400 Subject: Sams PhotoFacts In-Reply-To: <992953.23328.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: James Gessling wrote: > I wondered if there were any computer manuals in there. > I think there are, I found one for a Compaq portable and some > Gateway system, there are also some Zenith data systems items. Sams did some good Ohio Scientific PhotoFacts. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 25 09:59:02 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:59:02 -0700 Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents In-Reply-To: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ABCDAB6.3090606@bitsavers.org> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I'm just wondering - were these blank pages removed intentionally Yes, when I was post processing each page by hand and adding page numbers on bookmarks, I would remove the blank pages. The Panasonic KV-S3065W scanner I'm using now does a very good job at detecting double sheet feeds, so I don't preview the entire document any more. I'm also not doing as much border cleanup, and are OCRed now but not page bookmarked before uploading. I've also started the process of OCRing all of the existing documents. I finished SDS this week, and am slowly working through DEC. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 25 10:02:21 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:02:21 -0700 Subject: Sams PhotoFacts In-Reply-To: <992953.23328.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <992953.23328.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4ABCDB7D.5010507@bitsavers.org> James Gessling wrote: > I wondered if there were any computer manuals in there. Yes, they were called ComputerFacts, most of which were for floppies and other peripherals and home computers from the early 80's. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 25 10:03:01 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 11:03:01 -0400 Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents In-Reply-To: <4ABCDAB6.3090606@bitsavers.org> References: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4ABCDAB6.3090606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200909251103.01399.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 25 September 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > I've also started the process of OCRing all of the existing > documents. I finished SDS this week, and am slowly working through > DEC. This is awesome! Google being able to search the contents of bitsavers (more than just the titles) is something I've been wanting for a while. Thanks, Al! Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 25 10:07:29 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:07:29 -0700 Subject: pulley crowning / was Re: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <4ABC6960.51BB6E@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5FD003A8-7172-4CCA-B96C-D161B0233BE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ABC6960.51BB6E at cs.ubc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi I thought I'd mention that the sight is wrong. There are two different actions. Even a ridgid belt=2C such as a steel belt will walk up the incline=2C as long as it doesn't slip. But the steel belt won't center on the crown unless it is stretched. The steel belt would wobble back and forth. The thinking of this fellow is that the two are the same and they are not. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > Date: Thu=2C 24 Sep 2009 23:55:28 -0700 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at invalid.domain > Subject: pulley crowning / was Re: 50Hz vs. 60Hz > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> It's called "crowning" here too. How in blazes does that work? >> I've always wondered about it. > > FWIW=2C this shows up with a search for "pulley crowning": > > http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/crowning.htm > > (click thru to the answer page). It looks familiar=2C I think somebody el= se > pointed to the same page during a previous discussion of this topic on th= e list. =0A= _________________________________________________________________=0A= Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail=AE.=0A= http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tut= orial_QuickAdd_062009= From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 25 11:50:48 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 09:50:48 -0700 Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents In-Reply-To: <200909251103.01399.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4ABCDAB6.3090606@bitsavers.org> <200909251103.01399.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4ABCF4E8.8060401@bitsavers.org> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > This is awesome! Google being able to search the contents of bitsavers > (more than just the titles) is something I've been wanting for a while. > I noticed that Google has been doing their own OCR and indexing of bitsavers and its mirrors for a year now. The output of Acrobat Pro also seems to be reducing the file size after OCRing by about 20% From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 25 13:27:33 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:27:33 -0400 Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents In-Reply-To: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <85625F70-8631-4083-8EE2-62615589CE37@neurotica.com> On Sep 25, 2009, at 8:55 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > This is one of those things that has bugged me for a while - > figured I'd see if anyone else noticed. Many documents on Bitsavers > are missing the blank pages. > > Now, this isn't much of an issue if you are just reading them on a > computer, but they cause havoc when you go to print them out. Call > me a tree-killer, but when I'm working on a complicated machine, > and find the manual on Bitsavers, I like to print it out, three- > hole punch it, and put it in a binder - this way I can work from > it, add notes to it, etc, as I restore/repair a device. > > With blank pages (i.e. the backs of the last page of a section) > missing, when you print double-sided, it throws off the page > layout. Sometimes this results in a two-page diagram being printed > on the front and back of a single sheet of paper. Or the exploded > diagram and the parts list on opposite sides of a page. > > So, my solution is to go through the document ahead of time on the > computer, page by page, and write down the page ranges that are > contiguous, and printing odd numbers of pages together to recreate > the blank backs at the end of the section. For example, for the > KSR35 Teletype Tech manual, volume 1: > 1-3 (single sided), 4-14, 15-26, 27 (reduce), 28-66, 67-113, > 114-122, 123-157, 158-164, 165-183, 184-192, 193-217. > > Maybe this is just me being a bit obsessive - but I'm sure someone > else has run into this. I'm just wondering - were these blank pages > removed intentionally for some reason? Did the scanning software > automatically ignore them? Or am I the only vintage computer geek > out there who owns a massive duplexing laser printer? Nope, HP8100DN and HP8550DN here. I've had this problem too, but it beats not having the docs at all!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Fri Sep 25 14:57:14 2009 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:57:14 -0500 Subject: VT100 - rubber feet are melting Message-ID: <7B73D542CD244CE99DB56CB180B4A34F@obie> Anyone have a good replacement source for the rubber feet on a VT100? Mine are turning to goo. They measure 3/4" square by 1/2" high. I found some furniture feet that will do at my local hardware store but they're round, brown and too short. Thanks, Jack From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 25 15:19:19 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:19:19 -0700 Subject: VT100 - rubber feet are melting In-Reply-To: <7B73D542CD244CE99DB56CB180B4A34F@obie> References: <7B73D542CD244CE99DB56CB180B4A34F@obie> Message-ID: <4ABCC357.15940.6235990@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Sep 2009 at 14:57, Jack Rubin wrote: > Anyone have a good replacement source for the rubber feet on a VT100? > Mine are turning to goo. They measure 3/4" square by 1/2" high. I > found some furniture feet that will do at my local hardware store but > they're round, brown and too short. Jameco has some 3M Bumpon feet that are 0.81" x 0.3": Might be a little coser: http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c293/P105.pdf Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 25 15:29:01 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:29:01 -0700 Subject: VT100 - rubber feet are melting In-Reply-To: <7B73D542CD244CE99DB56CB180B4A34F@obie> References: <7B73D542CD244CE99DB56CB180B4A34F@obie> Message-ID: At 2:57 PM -0500 9/25/09, Jack Rubin wrote: >Anyone have a good replacement source for the rubber feet on a VT100? Mine >are turning to goo. They measure 3/4" square by 1/2" high. I found some >furniture feet that will do at my local hardware store but they're round, >brown and too short. Strange question, but what has the VT100 been sitting on? When we were first in the apartment we used to live in I discovered a serious problem. If I sat a piece of gear on the carpet for any amount of time the rubber feet would melt. Highly irritating. Of course in our new house my office is one of two rooms with carpet. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 25 16:02:35 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 23:02:35 +0200 Subject: VT100 - rubber feet are melting In-Reply-To: References: <7B73D542CD244CE99DB56CB180B4A34F@obie> Message-ID: <20090925230235.1ba12f60.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 13:29:01 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > If I sat a piece of gear on the carpet for any amount of > time the rubber feet would melt. Highly irritating. Plasticizer evaporateing from the carpet and doing its job on the rubber... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer#For_plastics -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 25 16:11:49 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 14:11:49 -0700 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ABD3215.1080007@brouhaha.com> Christian Corti wrote: > The simplest solution: Buy a UPS and tell it to output 230V/50Hz... All common inexpensive UPSes will not output a substantially different voltage or frequency than the input, because they are really SPSes (Standby Power Supply), and the load only runs on the inverter when the mains power fails. A true UPS (also known as an "online UPS") that runs the load on the inverter is much more expensive. Most of the price difference is probably due to the much lower production volume of the UPS, but it is the case that the AC-DC front end of an SPS will be less expensive to manufacture since it only has to supply enough current to charge the battery, not to simultaneously charge the battery and power the load. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 25 15:58:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:58:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: <4ABB88E3.614.156DD41@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 24, 9 02:57:39 pm Message-ID: [Inmac] > You could tell their cables from a mile away--they were blue, when > everyone else was beige, grey or black. Indeed. I have at least one INMAC DL11 (40 pin Berg) to DB25 cable. I have it as the console terminal cable on one of my DEC machines, the blue sheath maks it easy to spot Can anyone remember what INMAC stood for. It was something like 'INstant Minicomputer Accesotries and Cables', wasn't it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 25 16:18:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:18:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sams PhotoFacts In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Sep 25, 9 10:46:06 am Message-ID: > > James Gessling wrote: > > I wondered if there were any computer manuals in there. > > I think there are, I found one for a Compaq portable and some > > Gateway system, there are also some Zenith data systems items. > > Sams did some good Ohio Scientific PhotoFacts. Closely related were the Sams Compufacts. These seem to have been 3rd party techicnal/repair manuals for some computer products. I found the one for the Commodore 1541 disk drive in a second-hand bookshop over here (of course I bought it). It appears they existed fro many popular micorcomputers and their peripherals. It's written for less techncial people than the Commodore 1541 service manual (which is just schematics and parts lists IIRC). The Sams manual has step-by-step fault tracing charts, dismantling instructions, etc. But it also comtains the full schematics :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 25 16:28:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:28:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <4ABD3215.1080007@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 25, 9 02:11:49 pm Message-ID: > > Christian Corti wrote: > > The simplest solution: Buy a UPS and tell it to output 230V/50Hz... > All common inexpensive UPSes will not output a substantially different > voltage or frequency than the input, because they are really SPSes > (Standby Power Supply), and the load only runs on the inverter when the > mains power fails. A true UPS (also known as an "online UPS") that runs > the load on the inverter is much more expensive. Most of the price > difference is probably due to the much lower production volume of the > UPS, but it is the case that the AC-DC front end of an SPS will be less > expensive to manufacture since it only has to supply enough current to > charge the battery, not to simultaneously charge the battery and power > the load. The small/cheap UPSes I've had to repair seem to contain one trasnformer which is used as a step-down transformer when the mains input is present (to charge the battery) and as a step-up transformer (driven by the power transitors/mosfets from said battery) when the mains fails. So no way can it change mains of one freqeuncy into another without a second transformer, etc. I wonder if the output waveform of such UPSes (and indeed the inverters you an get to run mains-powered stuff off the car battery) is good enough to run things like RK05 spindle motors. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 25 16:38:37 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:38:37 -0600 Subject: VT100 - rubber feet are melting In-Reply-To: <7B73D542CD244CE99DB56CB180B4A34F@obie> References: <7B73D542CD244CE99DB56CB180B4A34F@obie> Message-ID: <4ABD385D.1070700@jetnet.ab.ca> I know they have round feet here. http://www.surplussales.com/ From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 17:27:58 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 15:27:58 -0700 Subject: What's up with this case? In-Reply-To: References: <4ABB88E3.614.156DD41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090909251527l4dffff10kf775645951f8ee56@mail.gmail.com> from wikipedia *nmac* (International Microcomputer Accessories Corporation), which became a publicly-traded company, was founded in 1975 in Silicon Valley. The company was first listed on the NASDAQ in 1987 and later merged with MicroWarehousein 1996. Inmac was founded by Ken Eldred and Jim Willenborg, who met while in the MBA program at Stanford Business School. With $5,000 and a grocery bag full of connector parts, Eldred and Willenborg set out to serve minicomputer owners by mail order. After being turned down by venture capitalists , they raised $50,000 from friends and family. This bootstrappingmeant the company remained closely held by the founders. The company was quickly profitable, and no additional funding was required until Inmac went public.[1] Inmac was the first company to sell computer-related products and accessories via direct-mail catalogs. From its initial Palo Alto, California location, Inmac expanded internationally to England(1980), Germany (1981), Sweden(1982), France (1982)the Netherlands(1984), Canada (1985) Italy(1988), and Japan (1990). By 1989, Inmac was publishing 35 million catalogs in eight different languages, as international sales accounted for more than half the company's revenue.[2]When the company was sold to MicroWarehouse in 1996, it had 1,500 employees and annual revenue over $400 million. Inmac instituted a number of trend-setting practices including customer calls being answered on the first ring. All items carried a one-year no-hassle return policy and a two-year minimum product performance guarantee. At all locations around the world, typically 95% of orders received by 5pm were shipped that same day most often for next day receipt. Within certain areas, deliveries would be made within six hours. On 9/25/09, Tony Duell wrote: > > [Inmac] > > You could tell their cables from a mile away--they were blue, when > > everyone else was beige, grey or black. > > Indeed. I have at least one INMAC DL11 (40 pin Berg) to DB25 cable. I > have it as the console terminal cable on one of my DEC machines, the blue > sheath maks it easy to spot > > Can anyone remember what INMAC stood for. It was something like 'INstant > Minicomputer Accesotries and Cables', wasn't it? > > -tony > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 25 21:32:55 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 20:32:55 -0600 Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 25 Sep 2009 05:55:33 -0700. <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <783214.73534.qm at web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > Maybe this is just me being a bit obsessive - but I'm sure someone else > has r un into this. I'm just wondering - were these blank pages removed > intentionally for some reason? Did the scanning software automatically > ignore them? Or am I the only vintage computer geek out there who owns > a massive duplexing laser pri nter? Got a big honkin HP duplexing printer here myself. Its a workhorse and has been going steady on me for 10+ years without a single repair. Just keep putting toner and paper in it and it keeps on chuggin'. When I'm scanning, I leave out blank pages. When I'm printing, I look for section breaks and print out the document in chunks to get the right duplex behavior. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 25 22:02:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 20:02:36 -0700 Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4ABD21DC.1882.7949156@cclist.sydex.com> Mr Ian Primus writes: > Maybe this is just me being a bit obsessive - but I'm sure someone > else has r un into this. I'm just wondering - were these blank pages > removed intentionally for some reason? Did the scanning software > automatically ignore them? Or am I the only vintage computer geek > out there who owns a massive duplexing laser printer? Xerox DocuPrint here. Duplexing, 11x17" tray. Nice unit, has TCP/IP connectivity in addition to the usual USB, parallel, serial, etc. hookups. Managing printer settings is as simple as navigating to a web page. Until I found http://bookletcreator.com/, printing booklets two-up on ledger-sized paper was a bit of a puzzle. Now it's a snap. Cheers, Chuck From james at jfc.org.uk Sat Sep 26 03:36:26 2009 From: james at jfc.org.uk (James Carter) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 09:36:26 +0100 Subject: old-computers.com Message-ID: <1253954187.3872.4.camel@voltaire.home.net> i'm sure i'm not the only one who regularly visits this site. it seems to have disappeared with a domain-squatting page in its place. does anyone know what's happened? -- James F. Carter www.jfc.org.uk www.podquiz.com www.starringthecomputer.com From nico at Farumdata.dk Sat Sep 26 03:58:43 2009 From: nico at Farumdata.dk (nico) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:58:43 +0200 Subject: old-computers.com Message-ID: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk> You probably forgot the hyphen. old-computers.com works fine, but oldcomputers.com is a squatting page Nico ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: James Carter Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 09:36:26 +0100 >i'm sure i'm not the only one who regularly visits this site. it seems >to have disappeared with a domain-squatting page in its place. does >anyone know what's happened? > >-- > James F. Carter www.jfc.org.uk www.podquiz.com www.starringthecomputer.com > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Sep 26 04:24:59 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:24:59 +0100 Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents In-Reply-To: <85625F70-8631-4083-8EE2-62615589CE37@neurotica.com> References: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <85625F70-8631-4083-8EE2-62615589CE37@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ABDDDEB.9090109@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 25, 2009, at 8:55 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Or am I the only vintage computer geek out >> there who owns a massive duplexing laser printer? > > Nope, HP8100DN and HP8550DN here. I've had this problem too, but it beats not having the docs at all!! Seconded on both counts. There's a Kyocera FS-C5200DN sitting next to me. Big, noisy, expensive, has Ethernet, and does colour and duplexing. About the only thing it doesn't do is make the tea. Or tell me the winning lottery numbers (before they're drawn, of course) :) Al does a fantastic job with the Bitsavers archive. I'm doing some research for my final-year university project, and keep finding useful tidbits in the archive (the CDC, Shugart and similar floppy disk appnotes have been very useful recently). All I'm going to say is, three cheers for Al! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From james at jfc.org.uk Sat Sep 26 04:37:04 2009 From: james at jfc.org.uk (James Carter) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:37:04 +0100 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <1253957824.3872.5.camel@voltaire.home.net> On Sat, 2009-09-26 at 10:58 +0200, nico wrote: > You probably forgot the hyphen. nope - i have the right address. it looks like it must be an issue local to me. i'll crawl back under my rock. :-) -- James F. Carter www.jfc.org.uk www.podquiz.com www.starringthecomputer.com From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Sep 26 04:39:47 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 02:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting core plane on eBay Message-ID: <544245.39070.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This core plane appears to be from a Univac Scientific computer, i.e., the 1103A, made from 1956 to ca. 1960. It's a dead ringer for a photo in a 1958 brochure on the machine. The 1103A was an upgrade to the orginal 1103 from 1953, replacing the Williams tube memory with core among other improvements. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250501299145 --Bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 26 09:24:51 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 08:24:51 -0600 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <1253957824.3872.5.camel@voltaire.home.net> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk> <1253957824.3872.5.camel@voltaire.home.net> Message-ID: <4ABE2433.60905@jetnet.ab.ca> James Carter wrote: > On Sat, 2009-09-26 at 10:58 +0200, nico wrote: >> You probably forgot the hyphen. > > nope - i have the right address. it looks like it must be an issue local > to me. i'll crawl back under my rock. :-) Better check if it is not a big can of SPAM now ... I think about 75% of my URL's have changed over the last few years and many of the sites are down for good. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 26 10:46:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 11:46:19 -0400 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <1253957824.3872.5.camel@voltaire.home.net> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk> <1253957824.3872.5.camel@voltaire.home.net> Message-ID: <629E2E25-9744-481A-B007-703E55EA18F2@neurotica.com> On Sep 26, 2009, at 5:37 AM, James Carter wrote: >> You probably forgot the hyphen. > > nope - i have the right address. it looks like it must be an issue > local > to me. i'll crawl back under my rock. :-) I can't get to it either. The curious appearance of the word "deleted" as a hostname component in the root nameservers' NS records for that domain is suggestive: -------------------------------------------- ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;old-computers.com. IN NS ;; ANSWER SECTION: old-computers.com. 172800 IN NS dns1.computingmuseum.com.deleted.gandi.net. old-computers.com. 172800 IN NS dns2.computingmuseum.com.deleted.gandi.net. ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: dns1.computingmuseum.com.deleted.gandi.net. 172800 IN A 64.90.191.35 dns2.computingmuseum.com.deleted.gandi.net. 172800 IN A 64.90.191.36 -------------------------------------------- -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Sep 26 11:01:36 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:01:36 -0400 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <629E2E25-9744-481A-B007-703E55EA18F2@neurotica.com> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk> <1253957824.3872.5.camel@voltaire.home.net> <629E2E25-9744-481A-B007-703E55EA18F2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200909261601.n8QG1aI5026159@rickmurphy.net> At 11:46 AM 9/26/2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Sep 26, 2009, at 5:37 AM, James Carter wrote: > I can't get to it either. The curious appearance of the word >"deleted" as a hostname component in the root nameservers' NS records >for that domain is suggestive: > >-------------------------------------------- >;; QUESTION SECTION: >;old-computers.com. IN NS > >;; ANSWER SECTION: >old-computers.com. 172800 IN NS >dns1.computingmuseum.com.deleted.gandi.net. >old-computers.com. 172800 IN NS >dns2.computingmuseum.com.deleted.gandi.net. > >;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: >dns1.computingmuseum.com.deleted.gandi.net. 172800 IN A 64.90.191.35 >dns2.computingmuseum.com.deleted.gandi.net. 172800 IN A 64.90.191.36 >-------------------------------------------- The nameservers for old-computers.com are hosted by computingmuseum.com. The computingmuseum.com domain expired on August 26th. -Rick From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 26 11:29:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 09:29:02 -0700 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <200909261601.n8QG1aI5026159@rickmurphy.net> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk>, <629E2E25-9744-481A-B007-703E55EA18F2@neurotica.com>, <200909261601.n8QG1aI5026159@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <4ABDDEDE.18262.A76E03C@cclist.sydex.com> I can get it just fine here; the DNS server is listed as sharp.old- computers.org at 64.90.191.34. Running DNS queries through that server seems to turn up the correct records. The hosting service is New York Internet. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Sat Sep 26 11:38:40 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:38:40 -0400 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <200909261601.n8QG1aI5026159@rickmurphy.net> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk> <1253957824.3872.5.camel@voltaire.home.net> <629E2E25-9744-481A-B007-703E55EA18F2@neurotica.com> <200909261601.n8QG1aI5026159@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <4ABE4390.6010100@snarc.net> >>>> The nameservers for old-computers.com are hosted by computingmuseum.com. The computingmuseum.com domain expired on August 26th. It works for me, but it's very slow. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Sep 26 11:39:01 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:39:01 -0400 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <4ABDDEDE.18262.A76E03C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk>, <629E2E25-9744-481A-B007-703E55EA18F2@neurotica.com>, <200909261601.n8QG1aI5026159@rickmurphy.net> <4ABDDEDE.18262.A76E03C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ABE43A5.6060307@atarimuseum.com> Sounds like its in the middle of a DNS propagation... Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > I can get it just fine here; the DNS server is listed as sharp.old- > computers.org at 64.90.191.34. Running DNS queries through that > server seems to turn up the correct records. > > The hosting service is New York Internet. > > --Chuck > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.113/2396 - Release Date: 09/26/09 05:51:00 > > From evan at snarc.net Sat Sep 26 11:47:53 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:47:53 -0400 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <4ABE43A5.6060307@atarimuseum.com> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk>, <629E2E25-9744-481A-B007-703E55EA18F2@neurotica.com>, <200909261601.n8QG1aI5026159@rickmurphy.net> <4ABDDEDE.18262.A76E03C@cclist.sydex.com> <4ABE43A5.6060307@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4ABE45B9.8060103@snarc.net> >>>> Sounds like its in the middle of a DNS propagation... I had a problem once where my server had two DNS entries - one correct, one incorrect - so the site only loaded 50% of the time. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 26 12:19:50 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 13:19:50 -0400 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <4ABE43A5.6060307@atarimuseum.com> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk>, <629E2E25-9744-481A-B007-703E55EA18F2@neurotica.com>, <200909261601.n8QG1aI5026159@rickmurphy.net> <4ABDDEDE.18262.A76E03C@cclist.sydex.com> <4ABE43A5.6060307@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <11D341C6-8EAB-45C5-97C6-E802A0592F91@neurotica.com> On Sep 26, 2009, at 12:39 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Sounds like its in the middle of a DNS propagation... As in from master to slave(s)? No, probably not, unless they're changing one or more of their nameservers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 26 12:21:25 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 10:21:25 -0700 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <4ABE43A5.6060307@atarimuseum.com> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk>, <4ABDDEDE.18262.A76E03C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4ABE43A5.6060307@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4ABDEB25.12430.AA6D769@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Sep 2009 at 12:39, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Sounds like its in the middle of a DNS propagation... I use OpenDNS as my default server. I don't know where it's getting the resolution information... --Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Sat Sep 26 13:34:14 2009 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 11:34:14 -0700 Subject: Analogic AP509 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84D325E0-22DD-4BCA-B62F-ACFB3867236B@comcast.net> Yesterday, rooting around my local scrapper I came across several Analogic AP509 Array Processors which had been rebadged by HP. They evidently came out of a trashed IC test system which was missing the computer. Anyone have any information on these beasts or interest before they hit the parts bin? CRC From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 26 14:27:53 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:27:53 -0700 Subject: manx is dead? Message-ID: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> http://vt100.net/manx/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 26 15:22:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 13:22:03 -0700 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> References: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4ABE157B.29758.B4C34F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Sep 2009 at 12:27, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://vt100.net/manx/ I haven't been able to get a response from bitsavers.vt100.net for the last couple of months either. I've been using the Stuttgart University mirror. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Sep 26 16:01:18 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 14:01:18 -0700 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <4ABE157B.29758.B4C34F7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org>, <4ABE157B.29758.B4C34F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Me three. Their search page is still working, though, which is very helpful as it crosses several download sites. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis [cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Saturday, September 26, 2009 1:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: manx is dead? On 26 Sep 2009 at 12:27, Al Kossow wrote: > > http://vt100.net/manx/ I haven't been able to get a response from bitsavers.vt100.net for the last couple of months either. I've been using the Stuttgart University mirror. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 26 16:33:36 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 17:33:36 -0400 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <4ABC96F8.60500@gmail.com> References: <5FD003A8-7172-4CCA-B96C-D161B0233BE4@neurotica.com> <4ABC96F8.60500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <59DA6696-D341-42ED-A13A-FB17BF62D82C@neurotica.com> On Sep 25, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> matter. The ones that we got drawings for and had duplicated were >>>> worked from aluminum stock with quite a few processes to harden >>>> them and >>>> form the drive surface so as not to eat the drive belt. The >>>> shape of >>>> the pulley causes the drive belt to ride in the center when >>>> properly >>>> done, there are no "edges" to retain it. If you have or can get >>> >>> Known as 'crowning', at least over here. >>> >>> It's surping the first time you see it, but the pulley is smaller in >>> diameter at the edges than in the mdidle. The belt runs on the >>> largest >>> diameter part -- and mves itself there when the pulleys turn. If you >>> naively make a pulley with a smaller diamter in the middle (with >>> the idea >>> being that he larger diameter edges will keep the belt in place), >>> the >>> belt will fly off. >> It's called "crowning" here too. How in blazes does that work? >> I've always wondered about it. > > The same way train wheels work. Train wheels are of slightly > smaller diameter to the outside edge than they are on the inside > edge. Makes the train sit between the rails rather than on them. > Along the same lines, the capstan sits in the middle of the belt > instead of on both outer edges. Umm. Wow. It never occurred to me to think of the capstan riding in the belt rather than the belt riding on the capstan. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 26 17:36:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 15:36:38 -0700 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <59DA6696-D341-42ED-A13A-FB17BF62D82C@neurotica.com> References: , <4ABC96F8.60500@gmail.com>, <59DA6696-D341-42ED-A13A-FB17BF62D82C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ABE3506.28030.BC76B34@cclist.sydex.com> On Sep 25, 2009, at 6:10 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The same way train wheels work. Train wheels are of slightly > smaller diameter to the outside edge than they are on the inside > edge. Makes the train sit between the rails rather than on them. > Along the same lines, the capstan sits in the middle of the belt > instead of on both outer edges. I'd always been given to understand that the reason for the taper in train wheel profiles is to facilitate travel on curves; i.e. the wheels on the inside edge of a curve travel on the smaller diameter of the taper and the ones on the outside, the larger. Saves a lot of flange-banging. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 26 20:25:58 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:25:58 -0700 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <59DA6696-D341-42ED-A13A-FB17BF62D82C@neurotica.com> References: <5FD003A8-7172-4CCA-B96C-D161B0233BE4@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ABC96F8.60500 at gmail.com> <59DA6696-D341-42ED-A13A-FB17BF62D82C at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 ---------------------------------------- > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Subject: Re: 50Hz vs. 60Hz > Date: Sat=2C 26 Sep 2009 17:33:36 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Sep 25=2C 2009=2C at 6:10 AM=2C Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>>> matter. The ones that we got drawings for and had duplicated were >>>>> worked from aluminum stock with quite a few processes to harden >>>>> them and >>>>> form the drive surface so as not to eat the drive belt. The >>>>> shape of >>>>> the pulley causes the drive belt to ride in the center when >>>>> properly >>>>> done=2C there are no "edges" to retain it. If you have or can get >>>> >>>> Known as 'crowning'=2C at least over here. >>>> >>>> It's surping the first time you see it=2C but the pulley is smaller in >>>> diameter at the edges than in the mdidle. The belt runs on the >>>> largest >>>> diameter part -- and mves itself there when the pulleys turn. If you >>>> naively make a pulley with a smaller diamter in the middle (with >>>> the idea >>>> being that he larger diameter edges will keep the belt in place)=2C >>>> the >>>> belt will fly off. >>> It's called "crowning" here too. How in blazes does that work? >>> I've always wondered about it. >> >> The same way train wheels work. Train wheels are of slightly >> smaller diameter to the outside edge than they are on the inside >> edge. Makes the train sit between the rails rather than on them. >> Along the same lines=2C the capstan sits in the middle of the belt >> instead of on both outer edges. > > Umm. Wow. It never occurred to me to think of the capstan riding > in the belt rather than the belt riding on the capstan. > Huh Back on the belts=2C When the belt has one straight pully=2C and one of increasing radius=2C it walks up the pully beause the belt also moves in the direction of the inclined pully on the straight pully. This effect can be easily seen by just hanging a belt on the increasing radius pully loose. Notice that if you turned the pully=2C the belt would walk up to the higher radius=2C just as it would when taught with the straight pully. Once on the crown=2C this effect combines with the tention effect to keep it centered. Dwight =0A= _________________________________________________________________=0A= Hotmail=AE has ever-growing storage! Don=92t worry about storage limits.=0A= http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tuto= rial_Storage_062009= From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Sep 26 23:03:35 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 00:03:35 -0400 Subject: 50Hz vs. 60Hz In-Reply-To: <4ABE3506.28030.BC76B34@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4ABC96F8.60500@gmail.com>, <59DA6696-D341-42ED-A13A-FB17BF62D82C@neurotica.com> <4ABE3506.28030.BC76B34@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ABEE417.1040309@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The same way train wheels work. Train wheels are of slightly >> smaller diameter to the outside edge than they are on the inside >> edge. Makes the train sit between the rails rather than on them. >> Along the same lines, the capstan sits in the middle of the belt >> instead of on both outer edges. > > I'd always been given to understand that the reason for the taper in > train wheel profiles is to facilitate travel on curves; i.e. the > wheels on the inside edge of a curve travel on the smaller diameter > of the taper and the ones on the outside, the larger. Saves a lot of > flange-banging. It's more than that. If the wheels are profiled to the reverse of the common configuration, the stress on the system is enough to derail the train, even with flanges in place. The flanges do help keep the train on the track on curves (they act sort of like a bump stop at the end of the wheel's "play"), but their primary purpose is to help guide the wheel through the points at switches. The profile of the wheels is one of the main reasons why railroad ties (or sleepers, if you're on the other side of the pond...) are necessary. When a train passes a section of track, it exerts a large amount of force pushing the rails away from each other, because the train is sitting between the rails instead of on them. Next time you're near some worn, straight track, check out the wear pattern. You'll find that the inside of the rails is slightly more worn than the outside. It's very subtle, but you can see it. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 27 00:04:09 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 22:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GUSI 1 Message-ID: <200909270504.n8R549nI014072@floodgap.com> Any Mac programmers out there have a copy of GUSI *1*? GUSI 2 is available easily from sourceforge but it does not like the code I'm trying to link it to (and I know this code works with 1). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, Windows is not a virus. Viruses actually do something. ----------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 27 12:26:59 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 10:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GUSI 1 In-Reply-To: <200909270504.n8R549nI014072@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Sep 26, 9 10:04:09 pm" Message-ID: <200909271726.n8RHQxfj007544@floodgap.com> > Any Mac programmers out there have a copy of GUSI *1*? GUSI 2 is available > easily from sourceforge but it does not like the code I'm trying to link it > to (and I know this code works with 1). Never mind, the creator himself was able to find it. :) Thanks, Matthias! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm braiding my dental floss." ----------- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Sep 27 12:28:32 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 18:28:32 +0100 Subject: Floppy disc analyser -- it's alive! Message-ID: <4ABFA0C0.2090200@philpem.me.uk> It's alive, Igor! ALIVE! *ALIVE!* *cue dramatic thunder and lightning* OK, that's enough of that. I'm sure most of you know about my pet project -- the homebrew disc analyser. I finally got off my lazy backside this weekend and finished off the "pre-prototype" hardware, leaving me with a rather empty parts box, one less piece of FR4 pad-board, and a ton of mess on the workbench. It's talking to the ICD2 (so I can program the PIC), the connection to the FPGA board seems to work (i.e. I can send bytes to the PIC across the USB bus, then they're displayed in hex on the FPGA board's 7-seg and binary LED displays). The .plan at the moment is roughly as follows :- 1. Make it switch the drive motor on and off, and select the drive 2. Make the drive head step in and out to arbitrary tracks, seek to track 0, play music, etc. 3. Get the FPGA to measure the time between two flux transitions (emulated by a signal generator.. 74LS04, resistor, capacitor) and display the result on the hex display / store into RAM After that it's basically a case of adding the logic to allow the RAM to be read/written over USB, then adding the synchronisation circuitry. I seem to recall my digital-PLL data separator working "pretty OK" with a PC disc, and the index pulse detector definitely works (I've tested it). I'll put the schematics online if anyone wants to take a look (it's basically an Altera DE1 development board, a couple of connectors, some level shifters and a bit of 74LS). The board I've built is basically a voltage adapter for the floppy drive, oscillator (40MHz), and a USB interface -- the FPGA board handles (almost) everything else. At this point, I don't have much in the way of "test data", i.e. discs that aren't in PC format. I think I've got a few Acorn DFS and ADFS discs stashed away, but it'd be nice to get hold of some more unusual formats as well (Amiga MFM, Commodore 1541 GCR, and maybe Apple 400K Macintosh would be nice starting points)... Dare I ask if anyone has any spare floppy discs they want rid of? 3.5in, 5.25in, I'm not picky, as long as there's something on them, though it would be useful if there's a matching .DSK, .ADF, etc. disc image to go with the disc(s). Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jgessling at yahoo.com Sun Sep 27 13:47:25 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAXstation available in Dallas area Message-ID: <479028.80123.qm@web31901.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Please contact Peter directly. --- On Sun, 9/27/09, Peter Smode wrote: > From: Peter Smode > Subject: VAXstation going to the great VMScluster in the sky > To: VMS-SIG at LISTSERV.ENCOMPASSUS.ORG > Date: Sunday, September 27, 2009, 11:29 AM > > > > > > VAXstation going to the great VMScluster in the > sky > > > > > My old VAXstation > is on its way to the recycling center despite the fact that it works just > fine (booted > today). I virtualized some > time ago and no longer need the physical system. I don?t want it, > but I figured > I?d post here just in case somebody really wants > such an old beast ? you never know. > > > > It is a VAXstation > 3100 M38 with an internal 2GB SCSI disk. I > have the keyboard (plus spare), the hockey puck mouse, and the external SCSI cable that allows for connectivity to external boxes with a Centronix > connector. I have > a > Mitsubishi HL6605ATK monitor to go with it; that?s an honest 16 inch monitor that does both sync on green and > external sync. The system has always failed a couple of the > POSTs, but I?ve always associated those with looking for a > WAN communications option. System comes without licenses, hardware only, as-is. > > > > I am in the Dallas TX area; I am figuring that > local pickup is really the only way to go > here. Please e-mail me if interested. > > > > -- Peter > > (psmode at kitsnet.vancouver.bc.ca) > > > -- > > This message has been scanned for viruses and > > dangerous content by > MailScanner, > and is > > believed to be clean. > > > From philpem at philpem.me.uk Fri Sep 25 18:34:43 2009 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 00:34:43 +0100 Subject: Missing pages in Bitsavers documents In-Reply-To: <85625F70-8631-4083-8EE2-62615589CE37@neurotica.com> References: <783214.73534.qm@web52601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <85625F70-8631-4083-8EE2-62615589CE37@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4ABD5393.9010301@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 25, 2009, at 8:55 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Or am I the only vintage computer geek out >> there who owns a massive duplexing laser printer? > > Nope, HP8100DN and HP8550DN here. I've had this problem too, but it > beats not having the docs at all!! Seconded on both counts. There's a Kyocera FS-C5200DN sitting next to me. Big, noisy, expensive, has Ethernet, and does colour and duplexing. About the only thing it doesn't do is make the tea. Or tell me the winning lottery numbers (before they're drawn, of course) :) Al does a fantastic job with the Bitsavers archive. I'm doing some research for my final-year university project, and keep finding useful tidbits in the archive (the CDC, Shugart and similar floppy disk appnotes have been very useful recently). All I'm going to say is, three cheers for Al! -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Sep 26 12:03:04 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 13:03:04 -0400 Subject: old-computers.com In-Reply-To: <4ABE43A5.6060307@atarimuseum.com> References: <200909261058.AA18743376@Farumdata.dk> <629E2E25-9744-481A-B007-703E55EA18F2@neurotica.com> <200909261601.n8QG1aI5026159@rickmurphy.net> <4ABDDEDE.18262.A76E03C@cclist.sydex.com> <4ABE43A5.6060307@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200909261703.n8QH341H001678@rickmurphy.net> At 12:39 PM 9/26/2009, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Sounds like its in the middle of a DNS propagation... Yes, it does look that way. I'm getting an address now from the 'dns1.computingmuseum.com.deleted.gandi.net' nameserver. It'll probably correct itself in the next couple of days. -Rick From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Sep 26 14:51:39 2009 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:51:39 +0100 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Nooo! I was using it just last week for HSZ80 manuals :/ On 26/09/2009 20:27, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > http://vt100.net/manx/ > > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pitlog at gmail.com Sun Sep 27 12:25:53 2009 From: pitlog at gmail.com (The Pitlog) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:25:53 -0400 Subject: Microport System V/AT Message-ID: <2398B9D3-3C6D-495C-A20D-1F09D7706698@gmail.com> Hi All, I'm looking for a copy of the old Microport SYSV/AT to run on a Compaq Portable III I've got. I have all the documentation, but need 5.25" floppy images. Anybody have a copy they'd be willing to part with? I'm happy to trade for other older x86 type UNIX systems. I have several on 3.5" floppy and CDROM. Thanks, Tom From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Sep 27 15:28:03 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 22:28:03 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> References: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4ABFCAD3.1010007@update.uu.se> Al Kossow wrote: > > http://vt100.net/manx/ > > Man... and I was thinking just the other week that I should do some mirroring of it :/ /P From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Sep 27 16:27:48 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 17:27:48 -0400 Subject: Bytek Erasogram-40 Message-ID: Hi! I recently came across a Bytek Erasogram-40 EPROM programmer and eraser combination. It uses a PC board for a controller. Is anyone familiar with this device and/or have the PC software for it? Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From jgessling at yahoo.com Mon Sep 28 09:37:47 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 07:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage spotting on TV Message-ID: <42.72044.qm@web31903.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On the TV show "How it's made" there was a recent episode regarding player piano rolls. I was a little surprised they were still being made, but anyway there it was, a beautiful Apple ][ with 2 floppy drives, still earning it's keep. One Apple was being used with some kind of visual roll editor to touch up the hole layout, another was running the "Perforator Control Program V070L4" to control the punches making the rolls. That'd look good on the resume. Regards, Jim From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Sep 28 13:48:28 2009 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:48:28 -0700 Subject: Robert C. Peckham Inventory List... Message-ID: <200909281148.29177.lbickley@bickleywest.com> As was previously reported long-time RT-11 and PDP-11 fan, Robert C. Peckham passed away recently. He left a significant inventory of PDP-11 and related stuff in Glendale, California. I just got off the phone with Alan Frisbie, who is helping the widow sort out Robert's collection. Alan contacted a number of folks regarding the collection, but so far no one has responded to the need to purchase and/or pick up this stuff. Everything has to be moved out of Robert's office by Thursday, October 1. Alan said that he will be renting a storage unit temporarily in an attempt to save the historically valuable items - unless someone picks it up before then. It appears that much will be going into the dumpster. Please contact Alan ASAP if you are available to help. His address and phone numbers follow the inventory "The family is left with a mountain of medical and other bills, they would appreciate reasonable offers for this equipment. They would like to have everything go to good homes, where it will be used and appreciated, rather than to a dealer who will break it up and sell it." Regards, Lyle ---------- Inventory as of 27-Sep-2009 ---------- Two complete Q-Bus PDP-11 systems belonging to the late Bob Peckham, plus lots of miscellaneous PDP-11 related parts and supplies. Note: The system disks were removed and destroyed by order of his family and attorney to protect confidential client data. System #1 Rack 1 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with H874-A power controller Empty generic 5-1/4" Chassis DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Chassis containing: M8192-YB PDP-11/73 CPU M7551-AB MSV11 1MB memory M8043 DMV11 DDCMP (DECnet) communications card M8047 MXV11 multi-function card M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card M9047 Dual-height bus grant card M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks Quad-height bus grant card M9404-YA Q-Bus expansion card DEC 11/23 (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: M9405-YA Q-Bus expansion card M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer Dual-height bus grant card Dilog (model?) tape drive controller (for below drive) Quad-height bus grant card Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives Quad-height bus grant card Codar Technology model 102 Q-Timer & boot card DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: Load Board (power resistors) M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer Fujitsu Power supply (not hooked up) +5 @ 11A +24 @ 5A -12 @ 5A 5-1/4" generic chassis containing: 5-1/4" floppy disk drive (not hooked up) Rack 2 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with Pulizzi power controller RX02 dual 8" floppy disk subsystem Cipher M891340-96-1050U 1600/3200 bpi tape drive System #2 DEC "11V23" rack (31" high) w/power controller containing: DEC "DPM23 (BA11-SA) Chassis containing: M8637-EF 2MB memory M8190-AE PDP-11/83 CPU board M9047 Dual-width grant card M8043 DLV11-J 4-port serial card M9047 Dual-width grant card M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card M9047 Dual-width grant card Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives DEC BA11-N Chassis containing: M8192 PDP-11/73 CPU M7551-AC MSV11-QA memory (three blank slots) Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives (three blank slots) Additional PDP-11 related equipment, documentation, and supplies: Many DEC rack filler panels, both BA11-S style (metal w/rounded top & bottom) and 10" black plastic DEC BA42A SZ12X-MA SCSI/floppy expansion box VT320 w/LK207-EE with KED/EDT keycaps VT320 w/LK201 with KED/EDT keycaps Two DEC LA120 DECwriter-III printing terminals Three Diablo 630 Daisywheel printers (one New-In-Box) Two Clary DT1500 Uninterruptable power systems (UPS) Topaz Line-2 power conditioner Two MultiTech Multi-modem MT1432-BA (300 - 14,400 bps) MultiTech Multi-modem MT2834-BA RT-11 v5.2/5.4 documentation set RT-11 v5.6 documentation set DEC M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives Two DEC M8637-E 2MB memory boards Two DEC H9270 Backplanes Dual RX02 drives in chassis (NIB -- New In Box!) Three spare RX02 drives (in original boxes) Two VT1XX-CE DECword conversion kits for VT100 Three VT1XX-FB Anti-Glare kits for VT100 Fujitsu M2263E full-height 5-1/4" hard disk drive DEC RT-11 Distribution kits (v4.0 - v5.6) DECUS RT-11 SIG tapes (9-track) Many boxes of DEC-related hardware and supplies: "Floppy media -- RX02, RX33, RX50" "DEC Special parts & cables" "DEC Flat cables" "XXDP Listings from fiche" "DEC Cables & cords" "DEC MMJ Cables & fittings" much more, too much to list DEC Option Module list in 3" binder Three 6' Wright Line cabinets with roll-up doors: #1 Three tape hangers, two fixed shelves #2 4 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf, 1 drawer #3 6 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf Three New-In-Box (on pallets) Stantron 19" racks, on wheels. 21" panel height, 32" overall height, dark wood-grain laminate tops. Many 19" rack panels (plain & ventilated), shelves, rack slides, etc. Most brand new. Plus lots more PDP-11 Q-Bus chassis, backplanes, power supplies, and miscellaneous stuff in a large room we have not yet explored. There are more boxes and two more Wright Line cabinets filled with DEC stuff at Bob's house which we have not yet explored. We also expect to find more disk drives and ???? when we open his storage unit. Feel free to contact me by e-mail, or telephone me at the below numbers. Sincerely, Alan E. Frisbie -- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. 323-256-2575 (office) -- 4759 Round Top Drive 213-718-1635 (cellular) -- Los Angeles, CA 90065 -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Sep 28 14:16:24 2009 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:16:24 -0700 Subject: Robert C. Peckham Inventory List... Message-ID: <200909281216.24454.lbickley@bickleywest.com> As was previously reported long-time RT-11 and PDP-11 fan, Robert C. Peckham passed away recently. He left a significant inventory of PDP-11 and related stuff in Glendale, California. I just got off the phone with Alan Frisbie, who is helping the widow sort out Robert's collection. Alan contacted a number of folks regarding the collection, but so far no one has responded to the need to purchase and/or pick up this stuff. Everything has to be moved out of Robert's office by Thursday, October 1. Alan said that he will be renting a storage unit temporarily in an attempt to save the historically valuable items - unless someone picks it up before then. It appears that much will be going into the dumpster. Please contact Alan ASAP if you are available to help. His address and phone numbers follow the inventory "The family is left with a mountain of medical and other bills, they would appreciate reasonable offers for this equipment. They would like to have everything go to good homes, where it will be used and appreciated, rather than to a dealer who will break it up and sell it." Regards, Lyle ---------- Inventory as of 27-Sep-2009 ---------- Two complete Q-Bus PDP-11 systems belonging to the late Bob Peckham, plus lots of miscellaneous PDP-11 related parts and supplies. Note: The system disks were removed and destroyed by order of his family and attorney to protect confidential client data. System #1 Rack 1 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with H874-A power controller Empty generic 5-1/4" Chassis DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Chassis containing: M8192-YB PDP-11/73 CPU M7551-AB MSV11 1MB memory M8043 DMV11 DDCMP (DECnet) communications card M8047 MXV11 multi-function card M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card M9047 Dual-height bus grant card M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks Quad-height bus grant card M9404-YA Q-Bus expansion card DEC 11/23 (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: M9405-YA Q-Bus expansion card M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer Dual-height bus grant card Dilog (model?) tape drive controller (for below drive) Quad-height bus grant card Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives Quad-height bus grant card Codar Technology model 102 Q-Timer & boot card DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: Load Board (power resistors) M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer Fujitsu Power supply (not hooked up) +5 @ 11A +24 @ 5A -12 @ 5A 5-1/4" generic chassis containing: 5-1/4" floppy disk drive (not hooked up) Rack 2 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with Pulizzi power controller RX02 dual 8" floppy disk subsystem Cipher M891340-96-1050U 1600/3200 bpi tape drive System #2 DEC "11V23" rack (31" high) w/power controller containing: DEC "DPM23 (BA11-SA) Chassis containing: M8637-EF 2MB memory M8190-AE PDP-11/83 CPU board M9047 Dual-width grant card M8043 DLV11-J 4-port serial card M9047 Dual-width grant card M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card M9047 Dual-width grant card Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives DEC BA11-N Chassis containing: M8192 PDP-11/73 CPU M7551-AC MSV11-QA memory (three blank slots) Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives (three blank slots) Additional PDP-11 related equipment, documentation, and supplies: Many DEC rack filler panels, both BA11-S style (metal w/rounded top & bottom) and 10" black plastic DEC BA42A SZ12X-MA SCSI/floppy expansion box VT320 w/LK207-EE with KED/EDT keycaps VT320 w/LK201 with KED/EDT keycaps Two DEC LA120 DECwriter-III printing terminals Three Diablo 630 Daisywheel printers (one New-In-Box) Two Clary DT1500 Uninterruptable power systems (UPS) Topaz Line-2 power conditioner Two MultiTech Multi-modem MT1432-BA (300 - 14,400 bps) MultiTech Multi-modem MT2834-BA RT-11 v5.2/5.4 documentation set RT-11 v5.6 documentation set DEC M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives Two DEC M8637-E 2MB memory boards Two DEC H9270 Backplanes Dual RX02 drives in chassis (NIB -- New In Box!) Three spare RX02 drives (in original boxes) Two VT1XX-CE DECword conversion kits for VT100 Three VT1XX-FB Anti-Glare kits for VT100 Fujitsu M2263E full-height 5-1/4" hard disk drive DEC RT-11 Distribution kits (v4.0 - v5.6) DECUS RT-11 SIG tapes (9-track) Many boxes of DEC-related hardware and supplies: "Floppy media -- RX02, RX33, RX50" "DEC Special parts & cables" "DEC Flat cables" "XXDP Listings from fiche" "DEC Cables & cords" "DEC MMJ Cables & fittings" much more, too much to list DEC Option Module list in 3" binder Three 6' Wright Line cabinets with roll-up doors: #1 Three tape hangers, two fixed shelves #2 4 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf, 1 drawer #3 6 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf Three New-In-Box (on pallets) Stantron 19" racks, on wheels. 21" panel height, 32" overall height, dark wood-grain laminate tops. Many 19" rack panels (plain & ventilated), shelves, rack slides, etc. Most brand new. Plus lots more PDP-11 Q-Bus chassis, backplanes, power supplies, and miscellaneous stuff in a large room we have not yet explored. There are more boxes and two more Wright Line cabinets filled with DEC stuff at Bob's house which we have not yet explored. We also expect to find more disk drives and ???? when we open his storage unit. Feel free to contact me by e-mail, or telephone me at the below numbers. Sincerely, Alan E. Frisbie -- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. 323-256-2575 (office) -- 4759 Round Top Drive 213-718-1635 (cellular) -- Los Angeles, CA 90065 -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Mon Sep 28 15:15:42 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:15:42 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [comp.sys.dec] Re: Robert C. Peckham -- RIP -- PDP-11 Inven Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:30:43 -0700 Groups: comp.sys.dec,alt.sys.pdp11,vmsnet.pdp-11 From: Alan Frisbie Subject: Re: Robert C. Peckham -- RIP -- PDP-11 Inventory Re: Id: <4ABFAF53.3010305 at Flying-Disk.com> ======== Here is the preliminary inventory of PDP-11 and related stuff from the late Bob Peckham's office in Glendale, California (near Burbank). The office landlord has thrown us a curve, and wants us to have everything out by October 1. That is only a few days away! We originally thought we would have several weeks to clean it out. As a result, we simply don't have time to pack and ship anything. If you can come and pick it up before Thursday (Oct. 1), that would be great. Otherwise, we will *attempt* to move it to a storage unit and deal with it in a few weeks. Sadly, if we run out of time or space, it will have to be dumped. Because the family is left with a mountain of medical and other bills, they would appreciate reasonable offers for this equipment. They would like to have everything go to good homes, where it will be used and appreciated, rather than to a dealer who will break it up and sell it. ---------- Inventory as of 27-Sep-2009 ---------- Two complete Q-Bus PDP-11 systems belonging to the late Bob Peckham, plus lots of miscellaneous PDP-11 related parts and supplies. Note: The system disks were removed and destroyed by order of his family and attorney to protect confidential client data. System #1 Rack 1 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with H874-A power controller Empty generic 5-1/4" Chassis DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Chassis containing: M8192-YB PDP-11/73 CPU M7551-AB MSV11 1MB memory M8043 DMV11 DDCMP (DECnet) communications card M8047 MXV11 multi-function card M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card M9047 Dual-height bus grant card M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks Quad-height bus grant card M9404-YA Q-Bus expansion card DEC 11/23 (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: M9405-YA Q-Bus expansion card M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer Dual-height bus grant card Dilog (model?) tape drive controller (for below drive) Quad-height bus grant card Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives Quad-height bus grant card Codar Technology model 102 Q-Timer & boot card DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: Load Board (power resistors) M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer Fujitsu Power supply (not hooked up) +5 @ 11A +24 @ 5A -12 @ 5A 5-1/4" generic chassis containing: 5-1/4" floppy disk drive (not hooked up) Rack 2 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with Pulizzi power controller RX02 dual 8" floppy disk subsystem Cipher M891340-96-1050U 1600/3200 bpi tape drive System #2 DEC "11V23" rack (31" high) w/power controller containing: DEC "DPM23 (BA11-SA) Chassis containing: M8637-EF 2MB memory M8190-AE PDP-11/83 CPU board M9047 Dual-width grant card M8043 DLV11-J 4-port serial card M9047 Dual-width grant card M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card M9047 Dual-width grant card Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives DEC BA11-N Chassis containing: M8192 PDP-11/73 CPU M7551-AC MSV11-QA memory (three blank slots) Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives (three blank slots) Additional PDP-11 related equipment, documentation, and supplies: Many DEC rack filler panels, both BA11-S style (metal w/rounded top & bottom) and 10" black plastic DEC BA42A SZ12X-MA SCSI/floppy expansion box VT320 w/LK207-EE with KED/EDT keycaps VT320 w/LK201 with KED/EDT keycaps Two DEC LA120 DECwriter-III printing terminals Three Diablo 630 Daisywheel printers (one New-In-Box) Two Clary DT1500 Uninterruptable power systems (UPS) Topaz Line-2 power conditioner Two MultiTech Multi-modem MT1432-BA (300 - 14,400 bps) MultiTech Multi-modem MT2834-BA RT-11 v5.2/5.4 documentation set RT-11 v5.6 documentation set DEC M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives Two DEC M8637-E 2MB memory boards Two DEC H9270 Backplanes Dual RX02 drives in chassis (NIB -- New In Box!) Three spare RX02 drives (in original boxes) Two VT1XX-CE DECword conversion kits for VT100 Three VT1XX-FB Anti-Glare kits for VT100 Fujitsu M2263E full-height 5-1/4" hard disk drive DEC RT-11 Distribution kits (v4.0 - v5.6) DECUS RT-11 SIG tapes (9-track) Many boxes of DEC-related hardware and supplies: "Floppy media -- RX02, RX33, RX50" "DEC Special parts & cables" "DEC Flat cables" "XXDP Listings from fiche" "DEC Cables & cords" "DEC MMJ Cables & fittings" much more, too much to list DEC Option Module list in 3" binder Three 6' Wright Line cabinets with roll-up doors: #1 Three tape hangers, two fixed shelves #2 4 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf, 1 drawer #3 6 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf Three New-In-Box (on pallets) Stantron 19" racks, on wheels. 21" panel height, 32" overall height, dark wood-grain laminate tops. Many 19" rack panels (plain & ventilated), shelves, rack slides, etc. Most brand new. Plus lots more PDP-11 Q-Bus chassis, backplanes, power supplies, and miscellaneous stuff in a large room we have not yet explored. There are more boxes and two more Wright Line cabinets filled with DEC stuff at Bob's house which we have not yet explored. We also expect to find more disk drives and ???? when we open his storage unit. Feel free to contact me at the above address (after removing "_REMOVE"), or telephone me at the below numbers. Sincerely, Alan E. Frisbie -- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. 323-256-2575 (office) -- 4759 Round Top Drive 213-718-1635 (cellular) -- Los Angeles, CA 90065 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Sep 28 18:45:22 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:45:22 -0500 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> References: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AC14A92.4030209@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > http://vt100.net/manx/ Hmm, wonder if that means the other stuff on there is also at risk? The RML part seems to be alive for the time being (I do have a snapshot of that from a few years ago if it does turn up its toes, just FYI) cheers Jules From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Tue Sep 29 06:40:56 2009 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:40:56 +0200 Subject: IBM System/3 available in EU. Message-ID: Hi, An IBM System/3 model 15B with 3340 diskdrive and 5203 printer is available in the Netherlands. The system is 220/380V & 50Hz and complete with technical manuals. Anyone who is seriously interested in this system please contact me offline (asap). ibmsystem3_at_hccnet_dot_nl Regards Henk. From leolists at seidkr.com Tue Sep 29 07:54:48 2009 From: leolists at seidkr.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Philip_Leonard_WV=D8T?=) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 07:54:48 -0500 Subject: IBM System/3 available in EU. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC20398.8010405@seidkr.com> Henk Stegeman wrote: > Hi, > > An IBM System/3 model 15B with 3340 diskdrive and 5203 printer > is available in the Netherlands. > The system is 220/380V & 50Hz and complete with technical manuals. > > Anyone who is seriously interested in this system please > contact me offline (asap). > > ibmsystem3_at_hccnet_dot_nl > > Regards Henk. Oh if it were only a little closer. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Sep 29 08:02:03 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:02:03 +0200 Subject: IBM System/3 available in EU. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090929130203.GA30696@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 01:40:56PM +0200, Henk Stegeman wrote: > Hi, > > An IBM System/3 model 15B with 3340 diskdrive and 5203 printer > is available in the Netherlands. > The system is 220/380V & 50Hz and complete with technical manuals. > > Anyone who is seriously interested in this system please > contact me offline (asap). > > ibmsystem3_at_hccnet_dot_nl > > Regards Henk. How big is this system? (I guess that if I'm asking, it wont fit in my house :) I'm not interested, but might know someone who is. /P From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Sep 29 08:58:19 2009 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fairlight CMI Message-ID: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Being a vintage computer and synthesiser fan, I'd love to get a Fairlight CMI for restoration/care/actual use so if anyone has any Fairlight CMI model they would like to either sell or trade let me know. Can be EU or US. Cheers Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Sep 29 09:16:41 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:16:41 -0500 Subject: Retro-inspired art Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090929091342.049a45a8@mail.threedee.com> I stumbled on this today. I thought anyone into old hardware and aerospace relics would find this appealing: http://ronvanderende.nl/?tag=hardware - John From amercade at nexe.com Tue Sep 29 05:45:00 2009 From: amercade at nexe.com (Albert Mercade i Casanova) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:45:00 +0200 Subject: free for the cost of shipping, from Austin, Texas Message-ID: <5ff4a52.1ca40f2.3e0492c7.4eb6@nexe.com> Hi Jim, I suppose 2 years are a lot of time :-) but I've bought a TRS-80 Model IV and it arrived to Spain with the CRT broken. I'm googling for some information about to buy a replacement one and I found your message: Item #1 ------------ For the past eight years I've been keeping a box that supposedly has a B&W CRT in it; it was given to me by a retiring engineer and TRS-80 enthusiast. I finally opened the box and confirmed there is a CRT of some kind it it, although whether or not it is for a trs-80 I haven't checked. I have no need for it; anybody willing to pay shipping on it can have it. It is in great shape and in fact, might be unused. It looks to be about 12" diagonal. There are a lot of different markings on the tube, and I'm not sure which is the most important; in fact, the layout of the markings is such that I can't always tell what goes with what, but I'll try my best: RCA Electron Tube 12VCLP4 Model No. 6 EIA 274 KTR131B Elsewhere it says EIA 1240. That's my CRT!!!! You don't already have it, have you? Do you know where to get a (cheap) one? Thank you very much,,,, Albert. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Sep 29 11:30:37 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:30:37 -0500 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions Message-ID: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> I recently wrote a ping utility for my DOS TCP/IP stack, and I wasn't satisfied with the 55ms resolution of the BIOS timer tick. I used the 'delay' function in the Turbo C runtime which gives me a processor loop that delays with 1ms granularity. I figured that I could call that and poll for the ping reply, and the number of calls would be the ping latency in ms. Testing of delay in a controlled environment shows that at least on my PCjr, it is off by 15%. My V20 processor might be part of the problem, although I'm not going to fix it. So I decided to dabble with the 8253 a bit. What a nightmare .. First, some observations on the 8253: - Mode 3 on the 8253 is not suitable for reading because of the way it counts down twice before triggering an interrupt. If you just latch and read the count you can't tell if you are on the first pass or the second pass before the interrupt. That's not good for timing. - Mode 2 counts down and generates an interrupt in a sane way, but generates a different pulse to the 8259 interrupt controller so I'd rather not use it. The BIOS initializes with Mode 3, and that is what I am sticking with. I decided to make timer 0 tick at a faster rate (64x faster), and in my interrupt handler I call the original interrupt handler at the appropriate rate to avoid speeding up the system clock. This works fine, even on the PCjr. Except for one case ... On the PCjr, if I touch the keyboard the machine screeches. And not its normal polite 'Go away I'm busy beep' either. The keyboard on this machine is wired to NMI instead of IRQ1, so it has higher priority than timer 0. The NMI interrupt is used to read the keyboard serial data stream and it uses timer 1 of the 8253 to record when the first bit is received. Timer 1 isn't used elsewhere, so that is fine. If there is an error in the serial data it sounds the system beeper, so timer 2 can get altered at any time making timer 2 unusable. Any keypress causes the screeching. First, I can't figure out why the NMI handler is having a problem deserializing the keyboard even if timer 0 is running fast. All interrupts are disabled, so this should be business as usual. Yet any keypress causes it to go nuts. Any ideas? (As a side effect the timings reported by ping start to look bad - the NMI is definitely taking up precious time.) Second, the machine becomes unstable. I don't care about getting bad timings because of keypresses, but this is far worse .. If I disable the NMI interrupt everything is perfect - but then you can't hit Ctrl-Break to stop pinging. (Yes, I have Ctrl-Break captured, and it works if I don't mess with timer 0 at all.) I don't want to have to shut off the keyboard entirely if there is a possibility of figuring out why the NMI is causing problems with a fast timer 0. Ideas? Thanks in advance, Mike From bear at typewritten.org Tue Sep 29 11:58:25 2009 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 09:58:25 -0700 Subject: Fairlight CMI In-Reply-To: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04298A03-414A-4726-8732-78C91F299403@typewritten.org> On Sep 29, 2009, at 6:58 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Being a vintage computer and synthesiser fan, I'd love > to get a Fairlight CMI for restoration/care/actual use > so if anyone has any Fairlight CMI model they would like > to either sell or trade let me know. Can be EU or US. There have been several on eBay in the last nine months, ranging from $4500 to $12500. The most recent two have not sold yet. ok bear From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 29 12:10:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:10:46 -0400 Subject: Fairlight CMI In-Reply-To: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0E2CDB22-4B42-4A26-9E04-C59FCCDAF8B6@neurotica.com> On Sep 29, 2009, at 9:58 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > Being a vintage computer and synthesiser fan, I'd love > to get a Fairlight CMI for restoration/care/actual use > so if anyone has any Fairlight CMI model they would like > to either sell or trade let me know. Can be EU or US. Mmmmm, Fairlight. Years ago (1988 or so?) my friend Mike in Delaware had a Synclavier II. That thing was damn impressive. Sadly he no longer has it. Unless I'm mistaken, there's a MicroVAX-II in there! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 12:22:54 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:22:54 -0400 Subject: Fairlight CMI In-Reply-To: <04298A03-414A-4726-8732-78C91F299403@typewritten.org> References: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <04298A03-414A-4726-8732-78C91F299403@typewritten.org> Message-ID: > There have been several on eBay in the last nine months, ranging from $4500 > to $12500. The most recent two have not sold yet. And remember, CMI fans, that is a big hunk of money for a synth that will give you maintenance headaches on a weekly basis. -- Will From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 12:38:38 2009 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 01:38:38 +0800 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Google "hammerite" and "powder coating". On Fri, Sep 25, 2009 at 5:07 AM, Mike Ross wrote: > > I'm currently restoring a pdp-15: > > http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2033045&id=1528659644&l=5d2b00be93 > > This one will need a fair bit of cosmetic restoration; there's enough > surface rust on some of the panels to make a respray a good idea. Question: > does anyone have any idea how to reproduce the rough / textured / > 'spattered' appearance that DEC gave their cabinet paintwork? How was it > done in the factory? See the last image in the album to see what I mean. > > Thanks! > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it > now. > > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1 From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 29 12:45:10 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:45:10 -0400 Subject: Speaking of computer paint References: Message-ID: <7D7F2FE4A1E44D6BB79B6D220F43E59C@dell8300> Anybody know what IBM used to get that rubber feeling type paint on their old Thinkpads? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 29 12:49:37 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 10:49:37 -0700 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC248B1.5010106@bitsavers.org> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Google "hammerite" and "powder coating". > sigh.. http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2006-November/228009.html From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 13:08:47 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:08:47 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Google "hammerite" and "powder coating". Powder coating will not have the same texture. That older texture is called splatter coat, and is applied with a special nozzle during the spray. For small areas of touch up, a very convincing texture patch can be made with a toothpick, thickened paint, and a lot of time and randomness. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Sep 29 13:20:52 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:20:52 -0700 Subject: Fairlight CMI In-Reply-To: References: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <04298A03-414A-4726-8732-78C91F299403@typewritten.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 10:23 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Fairlight CMI > > > There have been several on eBay in the last nine months, ranging from > $4500 > > to $12500. The most recent two have not sold yet. > > And remember, CMI fans, that is a big hunk of money for a synth that > will give you maintenance headaches on a weekly basis. > > -- > Will Yes, it's nowhere near as robust as, say, a PDP-11/70. :-) From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Sep 29 13:24:29 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:24:29 -0400 Subject: Some DEC parts and a Sun-compatible CD-ROM drive Message-ID: I have a few DEC items that might be of interest to people here: RZ25-E hard drive BCC14-10 cable BCC05 cable H8574-A SCSI terminator I also have a Toshiba TXM3401E1 CD-ROM drive that I used to install software on a Sun SPARCstation. Of course, I'd like to sell this stuff for millions or at least trade it for an Apple 1 but I'll consider all offers that don't involve negative numbers! Anyone interested in this stuff? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 13:40:01 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:40:01 -0400 Subject: Speaking of computer paint In-Reply-To: <7D7F2FE4A1E44D6BB79B6D220F43E59C@dell8300> References: <7D7F2FE4A1E44D6BB79B6D220F43E59C@dell8300> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Anybody know what IBM used to get that rubber feeling type paint on their > old Thinkpads? Rubberized paint? -ethan From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Sep 29 13:47:42 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:47:42 -0400 Subject: Robert C. Peckham Inventory List... In-Reply-To: <200909281216.24454.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200909281216.24454.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <4AC2564E.90900@compsys.to> I left the inventory list in case someone missed it the first time. For myself, I have so much surplus PDP-11 hardware that my problem is very similar. It also must eventually go, although my time frame is years rather than days. Even for the RT-11 distributions, they would be useful only to check that there are no errors in the same distributions that I have access to. In the past, I have noticed that in some cases, two distributions of the same version can be different. If anyone else does acquire the RT-11 distributions, I would be interested in making a comparison. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine >Lyle Bickley wrote: >As was previously reported long-time RT-11 and PDP-11 fan, >Robert C. Peckham passed away recently. He left a significant >inventory of PDP-11 and related stuff in Glendale, California. > >I just got off the phone with Alan Frisbie, who is helping >the widow sort out Robert's collection. Alan contacted >a number of folks regarding the collection, but so far >no one has responded to the need to purchase and/or pick >up this stuff. > >Everything has to be moved out of Robert's office by >Thursday, October 1. Alan said that he will be renting >a storage unit temporarily in an attempt to save the >historically valuable items - unless someone picks it >up before then. It appears that much will be going into >the dumpster. > >Please contact Alan ASAP if you are available to help. >His address and phone numbers follow the inventory > >"The family is left with a mountain of medical and other >bills, they would appreciate reasonable offers for this >equipment. They would like to have everything go to good >homes, where it will be used and appreciated, rather than to >a dealer who will break it up and sell it." > >Regards, >Lyle > >---------- Inventory as of 27-Sep-2009 ---------- > >Two complete Q-Bus PDP-11 systems belonging to the late >Bob Peckham, plus lots of miscellaneous PDP-11 related parts >and supplies. > >Note: The system disks were removed and destroyed by order of >his family and attorney to protect confidential client data. > >System #1 > > Rack 1 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with H874-A power controller > > Empty generic 5-1/4" Chassis > > DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Chassis containing: > M8192-YB PDP-11/73 CPU > M7551-AB MSV11 1MB memory > M8043 DMV11 DDCMP (DECnet) communications card > M8047 MXV11 multi-function card > M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card > M9047 Dual-height bus grant card > M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks > Quad-height bus grant card > M9404-YA Q-Bus expansion card > > DEC 11/23 (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: > M9405-YA Q-Bus expansion card > M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer > Dual-height bus grant card > Dilog (model?) tape drive controller (for below drive) > Quad-height bus grant card > Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives > Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives > Quad-height bus grant card > Codar Technology model 102 Q-Timer & boot card > > DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: > Load Board (power resistors) > M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer > > Fujitsu Power supply (not hooked up) > +5 @ 11A > +24 @ 5A > -12 @ 5A > > 5-1/4" generic chassis containing: > 5-1/4" floppy disk drive (not hooked up) > > Rack 2 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with Pulizzi power controller > RX02 dual 8" floppy disk subsystem > Cipher M891340-96-1050U 1600/3200 bpi tape drive > > >System #2 > > DEC "11V23" rack (31" high) w/power controller containing: > > DEC "DPM23 (BA11-SA) Chassis containing: > M8637-EF 2MB memory > M8190-AE PDP-11/83 CPU board > M9047 Dual-width grant card > M8043 DLV11-J 4-port serial card > M9047 Dual-width grant card > M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card > M9047 Dual-width grant card > Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives > > DEC BA11-N Chassis containing: > M8192 PDP-11/73 CPU > M7551-AC MSV11-QA memory > (three blank slots) > Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives > (three blank slots) > > >Additional PDP-11 related equipment, documentation, and supplies: > > Many DEC rack filler panels, both BA11-S style (metal > w/rounded top & bottom) and 10" black plastic > > DEC BA42A SZ12X-MA SCSI/floppy expansion box > > VT320 w/LK207-EE with KED/EDT keycaps > > VT320 w/LK201 with KED/EDT keycaps > > Two DEC LA120 DECwriter-III printing terminals > > Three Diablo 630 Daisywheel printers (one New-In-Box) > > Two Clary DT1500 Uninterruptable power systems (UPS) > > Topaz Line-2 power conditioner > > Two MultiTech Multi-modem MT1432-BA (300 - 14,400 bps) > > MultiTech Multi-modem MT2834-BA > > RT-11 v5.2/5.4 documentation set > > RT-11 v5.6 documentation set > > DEC M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks > > Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives > > Two DEC M8637-E 2MB memory boards > > Two DEC H9270 Backplanes > > Dual RX02 drives in chassis (NIB -- New In Box!) > > Three spare RX02 drives (in original boxes) > > Two VT1XX-CE DECword conversion kits for VT100 > > Three VT1XX-FB Anti-Glare kits for VT100 > > Fujitsu M2263E full-height 5-1/4" hard disk drive > > DEC RT-11 Distribution kits (v4.0 - v5.6) > > DECUS RT-11 SIG tapes (9-track) > > Many boxes of DEC-related hardware and supplies: > "Floppy media -- RX02, RX33, RX50" > "DEC Special parts & cables" > "DEC Flat cables" > "XXDP Listings from fiche" > "DEC Cables & cords" > "DEC MMJ Cables & fittings" > much more, too much to list > > DEC Option Module list in 3" binder > > Three 6' Wright Line cabinets with roll-up doors: > #1 Three tape hangers, two fixed shelves > #2 4 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf, 1 drawer > #3 6 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf > > Three New-In-Box (on pallets) Stantron 19" racks, on > wheels. 21" panel height, 32" overall height, dark > wood-grain laminate tops. > > Many 19" rack panels (plain & ventilated), shelves, rack > slides, etc. Most brand new. > >Plus lots more PDP-11 Q-Bus chassis, backplanes, power supplies, >and miscellaneous stuff in a large room we have not yet explored. > >There are more boxes and two more Wright Line cabinets filled >with DEC stuff at Bob's house which we have not yet explored. > >We also expect to find more disk drives and ???? when we open >his storage unit. > >Feel free to contact me by e-mail, or telephone me at the below >numbers. > >Sincerely, >Alan E. Frisbie > >-- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. 323-256-2575 (office) >-- 4759 Round Top Drive 213-718-1635 (cellular) >-- Los Angeles, CA 90065 > From rollerton at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 13:52:45 2009 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:52:45 -0500 Subject: Speaking of computer paint In-Reply-To: <7D7F2FE4A1E44D6BB79B6D220F43E59C@dell8300> References: <7D7F2FE4A1E44D6BB79B6D220F43E59C@dell8300> Message-ID: <2789adda0909291152l12daed23hde2e34ceea9095a4@mail.gmail.com> Similar (but not sure if the same) a finely ground rubber powder was mixed in the paint and sprayed with larger orifice. Some put it in the primer and then over coat it, some put it in the top coat. I think in the primer worked best for me. Its been a long time since I did this. On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:45 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Anybody know what IBM used to get that rubber feeling type paint on their > old Thinkpads? > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 29 13:52:39 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 11:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Speaking of computer paint In-Reply-To: <7D7F2FE4A1E44D6BB79B6D220F43E59C@dell8300> References: <7D7F2FE4A1E44D6BB79B6D220F43E59C@dell8300> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Sep 2009, Teo Zenios wrote: > Anybody know what IBM used to get that rubber feeling type paint on > their old Thinkpads? Try PlastiDip spray. If you're planning to repaint a Thinkpad, you might want to scrape first. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Sep 29 14:03:32 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:03:32 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: William Donzelli wrote: > > > Google "hammerite" and "powder coating". > > Powder coating will not have the same texture. That older texture is > called splatter coat, and is applied with a special nozzle during the > spray. > Huh, I always thought it was "spatter" - no 'L' but the all knowing internet says it can go either way. From rollerton at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 14:10:22 2009 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:10:22 -0500 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2789adda0909291210i4fdef78eu82f3c8dc4e4db623@mail.gmail.com> The splatter paint had something to do with the solvent or carrier. I think it was a mix of two different formulations in the paint and one flashed off before the other causing one to lift or make large "fisheyes" instead of the paint film flowing out to a level surface. It was a Industrial production finish, meaning it was one pass and inexpensive, and intended to hide minor defects in the underlying materials and of course to hide finger prints and dirt. I remember using spray cans of touch up lacquer on it. On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:08 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Google "hammerite" and "powder coating". > > Powder coating will not have the same texture. That older texture is > called splatter coat, and is applied with a special nozzle during the > spray. > > For small areas of touch up, a very convincing texture patch can be > made with a toothpick, thickened paint, and a lot of time and > randomness. > > -- > Will > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 29 14:18:28 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Robert C. Peckham Inventory List... In-Reply-To: <4AC2564E.90900@compsys.to> References: <200909281216.24454.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <4AC2564E.90900@compsys.to> Message-ID: My concern is in any software that isn't the RT-11 Operating System. Specifically any DEC Layered Products or 3rd Party applications. This might be a good time to mention I'm still trying to find a copy of DECnet for RT-11. I am also looking for copies of SPD's that show what versions of layered products go with which versions of DEC OS's (specifically PDP-11 and PDP-10 OS's). Of the list below, these are the bits besides one of the cards in the 1st system (the Codar card) that I find interesting. The 9-Track's should potentially go to Al or Tim to read in. I don't know if the RT-11 SIG tapes have been archived (are these copies of what Tim has made CD's of?). The "Floppy Media" needs to be inventoried. >> DECUS RT-11 SIG tapes (9-track) >> >> Many boxes of DEC-related hardware and supplies: >> "Floppy media -- RX02, RX33, RX50" >> >> DEC Option Module list in 3" binder Zane On Tue, 29 Sep 2009, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I left the inventory list in case someone missed it the first time. > > For myself, I have so much surplus PDP-11 hardware that my problem is very > similar. It also must eventually go, although my time frame is years rather > than > days. > > Even for the RT-11 distributions, they would be useful only to check that > there > are no errors in the same distributions that I have access to. In the past, > I have > noticed that in some cases, two distributions of the same version can be > different. > If anyone else does acquire the RT-11 distributions, I would be interested in > making a comparison. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > >> Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> As was previously reported long-time RT-11 and PDP-11 fan, >> Robert C. Peckham passed away recently. He left a significant >> inventory of PDP-11 and related stuff in Glendale, California. >> >> I just got off the phone with Alan Frisbie, who is helping >> the widow sort out Robert's collection. Alan contacted >> a number of folks regarding the collection, but so far >> no one has responded to the need to purchase and/or pick >> up this stuff. >> >> Everything has to be moved out of Robert's office by >> Thursday, October 1. Alan said that he will be renting >> a storage unit temporarily in an attempt to save the >> historically valuable items - unless someone picks it >> up before then. It appears that much will be going into >> the dumpster. >> >> Please contact Alan ASAP if you are available to help. >> His address and phone numbers follow the inventory >> >> "The family is left with a mountain of medical and other >> bills, they would appreciate reasonable offers for this >> equipment. They would like to have everything go to good >> homes, where it will be used and appreciated, rather than to >> a dealer who will break it up and sell it." >> >> Regards, >> Lyle >> >> ---------- Inventory as of 27-Sep-2009 ---------- >> >> Two complete Q-Bus PDP-11 systems belonging to the late >> Bob Peckham, plus lots of miscellaneous PDP-11 related parts >> and supplies. >> >> Note: The system disks were removed and destroyed by order of >> his family and attorney to protect confidential client data. >> >> System #1 >> >> Rack 1 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with H874-A power controller >> >> Empty generic 5-1/4" Chassis >> >> DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Chassis containing: >> M8192-YB PDP-11/73 CPU >> M7551-AB MSV11 1MB memory >> M8043 DMV11 DDCMP (DECnet) communications card >> M8047 MXV11 multi-function card >> M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card >> M9047 Dual-height bus grant card >> M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks >> Quad-height bus grant card >> M9404-YA Q-Bus expansion card >> >> DEC 11/23 (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: >> M9405-YA Q-Bus expansion card >> M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer >> Dual-height bus grant card >> Dilog (model?) tape drive controller (for below drive) >> Quad-height bus grant card >> Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives >> Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives >> Quad-height bus grant card >> Codar Technology model 102 Q-Timer & boot card >> >> DEC 11/23-BC (BA11-S) Expansion Chassis containing: >> Load Board (power resistors) >> M3104 DHV11 4-line serial multiplexer >> >> Fujitsu Power supply (not hooked up) >> +5 @ 11A >> +24 @ 5A >> -12 @ 5A >> >> 5-1/4" generic chassis containing: >> 5-1/4" floppy disk drive (not hooked up) >> >> Rack 2 DEC H967 (42" high) rack with Pulizzi power controller >> RX02 dual 8" floppy disk subsystem >> Cipher M891340-96-1050U 1600/3200 bpi tape drive >> >> >> System #2 >> >> DEC "11V23" rack (31" high) w/power controller containing: >> >> DEC "DPM23 (BA11-SA) Chassis containing: >> M8637-EF 2MB memory >> M8190-AE PDP-11/83 CPU board >> M9047 Dual-width grant card >> M8043 DLV11-J 4-port serial card >> M9047 Dual-width grant card >> M7516-YM DELQA Ethernet card >> M9047 Dual-width grant card >> Andromeda SCDC disk controller for SCSI & floppy drives >> >> DEC BA11-N Chassis containing: >> M8192 PDP-11/73 CPU >> M7551-AC MSV11-QA memory >> (three blank slots) >> Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives >> (three blank slots) >> >> >> Additional PDP-11 related equipment, documentation, and supplies: >> >> Many DEC rack filler panels, both BA11-S style (metal >> w/rounded top & bottom) and 10" black plastic >> >> DEC BA42A SZ12X-MA SCSI/floppy expansion box >> >> VT320 w/LK207-EE with KED/EDT keycaps >> >> VT320 w/LK201 with KED/EDT keycaps >> >> Two DEC LA120 DECwriter-III printing terminals >> >> Three Diablo 630 Daisywheel printers (one New-In-Box) >> >> Two Clary DT1500 Uninterruptable power systems (UPS) >> >> Topaz Line-2 power conditioner >> >> Two MultiTech Multi-modem MT1432-BA (300 - 14,400 bps) >> >> MultiTech Multi-modem MT2834-BA >> >> RT-11 v5.2/5.4 documentation set >> >> RT-11 v5.6 documentation set >> >> DEC M8029 RXV21 controller for RX02 floppy disks >> >> Andromeda ESDC disk controller for ESDI & floppy drives >> >> Two DEC M8637-E 2MB memory boards >> >> Two DEC H9270 Backplanes >> >> Dual RX02 drives in chassis (NIB -- New In Box!) >> >> Three spare RX02 drives (in original boxes) >> >> Two VT1XX-CE DECword conversion kits for VT100 >> >> Three VT1XX-FB Anti-Glare kits for VT100 >> >> Fujitsu M2263E full-height 5-1/4" hard disk drive >> >> DEC RT-11 Distribution kits (v4.0 - v5.6) >> >> DECUS RT-11 SIG tapes (9-track) >> >> Many boxes of DEC-related hardware and supplies: >> "Floppy media -- RX02, RX33, RX50" >> "DEC Special parts & cables" >> "DEC Flat cables" >> "XXDP Listings from fiche" >> "DEC Cables & cords" >> "DEC MMJ Cables & fittings" >> much more, too much to list >> >> DEC Option Module list in 3" binder >> >> Three 6' Wright Line cabinets with roll-up doors: >> #1 Three tape hangers, two fixed shelves >> #2 4 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf, 1 drawer >> #3 6 fixed shelves, 1 roll-out shelf >> >> Three New-In-Box (on pallets) Stantron 19" racks, on >> wheels. 21" panel height, 32" overall height, dark >> wood-grain laminate tops. >> >> Many 19" rack panels (plain & ventilated), shelves, rack >> slides, etc. Most brand new. >> >> Plus lots more PDP-11 Q-Bus chassis, backplanes, power supplies, >> and miscellaneous stuff in a large room we have not yet explored. >> >> There are more boxes and two more Wright Line cabinets filled >> with DEC stuff at Bob's house which we have not yet explored. >> >> We also expect to find more disk drives and ???? when we open >> his storage unit. >> >> Feel free to contact me by e-mail, or telephone me at the below >> numbers. >> >> Sincerely, >> Alan E. Frisbie >> >> -- Flying Disk Systems, Inc. 323-256-2575 (office) >> -- 4759 Round Top Drive 213-718-1635 (cellular) >> -- Los Angeles, CA 90065 >> > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 29 14:24:56 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:24:56 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200909291925.n8TJP6pQ041311@billY.EZWIND.NET> On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:03:32 -0400, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >William Donzelli wrote: >> >> > Google "hammerite" and "powder coating". >> >> Powder coating will not have the same texture. That older texture is >> called splatter coat, and is applied with a special nozzle during the >> spray. >> >Huh, I always thought it was "spatter" - no 'L' but the all knowing >internet says it can go either way. It depends on how big the resulting splats are and the method of propulsion. Get small enough and it becomes sputtering :-) The other Bob From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Sep 29 14:26:22 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:26:22 -0400 Subject: Speaking of computer paint References: <7D7F2FE4A1E44D6BB79B6D220F43E59C@dell8300> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:52 PM Subject: Re: Speaking of computer paint > On Tue, 29 Sep 2009, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> Anybody know what IBM used to get that rubber feeling type paint on their >> old Thinkpads? > > Try PlastiDip spray. If you're planning to repaint a Thinkpad, you might > want to scrape first. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu I was thinking more of a touchup job, not a total repainting. From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Sep 29 14:28:43 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:28:43 -0400 Subject: Some DEC parts and a Sun-compatible CD-ROM drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99B30BCA-9829-456A-9ABD-E8841010CAF2@xlisper.com> > I have a few DEC items that might be of interest to people here: > > RZ25-E hard drive > BCC14-10 cable > BCC05 cable > H8574-A SCSI terminator > > I also have a Toshiba TXM3401E1 CD-ROM drive that I used to install > software on a Sun SPARCstation. > > Of course, I'd like to sell this stuff for millions or at least > trade it for an Apple 1 but I'll consider all offers that don't > involve negative numbers! > > Anyone interested in this stuff? I forgot to mention that this stuff is in Bedford, NH but it's small enough that it could be shipped. I also have a canvas bag with the NeXT logo and the text "The NeXT Day" on it that was given to me when I attended the introduction of the NeXT machine in San Francisco. Hint: zero is not a negative number From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 14:28:57 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:28:57 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: <2789adda0909291210i4fdef78eu82f3c8dc4e4db623@mail.gmail.com> References: <2789adda0909291210i4fdef78eu82f3c8dc4e4db623@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > The splatter paint had something to do with the solvent or carrier. It very well could be - I would like to know, so when that finish goes the way of crinkle and wrinkle, we might have a prayer of replicating it in a lab. Some day I am going to need gray/blue wrinkle paint in decent quantity - that will be "fun" to come up with. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 14:42:18 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:42:18 -0400 Subject: Speaking of computer paint In-Reply-To: References: <7D7F2FE4A1E44D6BB79B6D220F43E59C@dell8300> Message-ID: > I was thinking more of a touchup job, not a total repainting. Talk to the spock ears people. The people that *apply* the spock ears, not the people that wear them. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 14:49:19 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:49:19 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: <2789adda0909291210i4fdef78eu82f3c8dc4e4db623@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:28 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > It very well could be - I would like to know, so when that finish goes > the way of crinkle and wrinkle, we might have a prayer of replicating > it in a lab. > > Some day I am going to need gray/blue wrinkle paint in decent quantity > - that will be "fun" to come up with. Superficial research reveals that ready-to-use black wrinkle paint is available in well-stocked auto parts stores. Other colors aren't as easily available it seems, but from what I've read, Tung Oil was a common ingredient (along with some metal-based "drying agents") back in the day. As best I can tell, getting paint to form _a_ wrinkle finish isn't all that difficult to do (you just have to get the surface to dry before the middle-layer). Creating a specific look of wrinkles to match a specific era of equipment might take a bit of experimentation with solvents and powders and such. There should still be a few guys around from long enough ago that they remember details of aspects of the technique - air dry vs oven dry, solvents, additives, etc. I am certainly no expert with paints beyond the basics. The most exotic thing I've done personally is to apply high-temp epoxy paint for VW airducts. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 29 14:53:53 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 15:53:53 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: <2789adda0909291210i4fdef78eu82f3c8dc4e4db623@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A699436-8CBD-473F-AE64-8B1B006DAADE@neurotica.com> On Sep 29, 2009, at 3:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > As best I can tell, getting paint to form _a_ wrinkle finish isn't all > that difficult to do (you just have to get the surface to dry before > the middle-layer). Creating a specific look of wrinkles to match a > specific era of equipment might take a bit of experimentation with > solvents and powders and such. I've done it many times on small cast aluminum project boxes by heating the chassis in an oven for a few minutes (not super hot, just a bit too hot to handle with bare hands) and then spray-paiting it with ordinary spray paint. It actually turns out rather nice. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 29 15:15:45 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 21:15:45 +0100 Subject: Some DEC parts and a Sun-compatible CD-ROM drive In-Reply-To: <99B30BCA-9829-456A-9ABD-E8841010CAF2@xlisper.com> References: <99B30BCA-9829-456A-9ABD-E8841010CAF2@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <003201ca4141$a1b62930$e5227b90$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Any idea what it might cost to ship the RZ25 to the UK? Thanks Rob -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Betz Sent: 29 September 2009 20:29 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Some DEC parts and a Sun-compatible CD-ROM drive > I have a few DEC items that might be of interest to people here: > > RZ25-E hard drive > BCC14-10 cable > BCC05 cable > H8574-A SCSI terminator > > I also have a Toshiba TXM3401E1 CD-ROM drive that I used to install > software on a Sun SPARCstation. > > Of course, I'd like to sell this stuff for millions or at least > trade it for an Apple 1 but I'll consider all offers that don't > involve negative numbers! > > Anyone interested in this stuff? I forgot to mention that this stuff is in Bedford, NH but it's small enough that it could be shipped. I also have a canvas bag with the NeXT logo and the text "The NeXT Day" on it that was given to me when I attended the introduction of the NeXT machine in San Francisco. Hint: zero is not a negative number From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 15:55:00 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 16:55:00 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: <2789adda0909291210i4fdef78eu82f3c8dc4e4db623@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Superficial research reveals that ready-to-use black wrinkle paint is > available in well-stocked auto parts stores. Black is hard to tint, however. -- Will From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Sep 29 16:09:54 2009 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fairlight CMI Message-ID: <360523.15627.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I saw a few systems on ebay. A common issue seems to be bubbling in the monitor and faulty light pens/CPU cards. Also 'several thousand dollars' does seem a bit on the high side for a basic 8 bit rack in questionable state, although the keyboards are nice :) There are also the Fairlight QDC or MXP racks, which seem a later system (some kind of digital recording/ mixing desk). Those are not too interesting to me, 8 bit digital playback is so much more fun. Ian. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 29 16:10:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:10:37 -0700 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4AC2155D.25749.BA2A3CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Sep 2009 at 16:55, William Donzelli wrote: > > Superficial research reveals that ready-to-use black wrinkle paint > > is available in well-stocked auto parts stores. > > Black is hard to tint, however. If you like to powder-coat, wrinkle-finish powder can be had: http://www.powderbuythepound.com/ Colors, of course, are a bit limited, but perhaps they'll mix up a custom batch if you order enough and cross their palms with silver... Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Tue Sep 29 16:59:04 2009 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 17:59:04 -0400 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > On the PCjr, if I touch the keyboard the machine screeches. And not its > normal polite 'Go away I'm busy beep' either. The keyboard on this > machine is wired to NMI instead of IRQ1, so it has higher priority than > timer 0. The NMI interrupt is used to read the keyboard serial data > stream and it uses timer 1 of the 8253 to record when the first bit is > received. Timer 1 isn't used elsewhere, so that is fine. If there is > an error in the serial data it sounds the system beeper, so timer 2 can > get altered at any time making timer 2 unusable. > > Any keypress causes the screeching. First, I can't figure out why the > NMI handler is having a problem deserializing the keyboard even if timer > 0 is running fast. All interrupts are disabled, so this should be > business as usual. Yet any keypress causes it to go nuts. Any ideas? > (As a side effect the timings reported by ping start to look bad - the > NMI is definitely taking up precious time.) > > Second, the machine becomes unstable. I don't care about getting bad > timings because of keypresses, but this is far worse .. > > If I disable the NMI interrupt everything is perfect - but then you > can't hit Ctrl-Break to stop pinging. (Yes, I have Ctrl-Break captured, > and it works if I don't mess with timer 0 at all.) I don't want to have > to shut off the keyboard entirely if there is a possibility of figuring > out why the NMI is causing problems with a fast timer 0. > > Ideas? If you have the IBM PCjr tech ref handy, it does contain the BIOS listing, but if you don't, the NMI routine itself reads the timer (see below for the sequence) to time the bit stream coming from the keyboard (no hardware assist here, so it's the CPU reading the bits directly). Further more, for each code received from the keyboard, the NMI routine calls INT $48 (about five and a half pages of code) to translate the code to an IBM PC keyboard compatable code, stuffs that value (or values if a multi-byte sequence is needed) into port $60, then directly calls INT $09. And if there's an error during any of this, a sound routine called, which manipulates port $61 to toggle the speaker directly (using software loops to control pitch and duration). The code sequence to read the timers goes mov al,40h out 43h,al ; translated from symbolic constant nop nop in al,41h mov ah,al in al,41h xchg al,ah I hope this helps some. -spc (The PCjr was my second computer ... ) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 29 16:58:13 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:58:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: free for the cost of shipping, from Austin, Texas In-Reply-To: <5ff4a52.1ca40f2.3e0492c7.4eb6@nexe.com> from "Albert Mercade i Casanova" at Sep 29, 9 12:45:00 pm Message-ID: > I suppose 2 years are a lot of time :-) but I've bought a TRS-80 Model IV a= > nd it arrived to Spain with the CRT broken. I'm googling for some informati= > on about to buy a replacement one and I found your message: A couple of quick comments... Firstly the M3 and M4 monitor circuitry is the same (same PCB, etc). The CRTs are very similar (IIRC the M3 was originaly white phosphor, the M4 green). You could use a Model 3 CRT with no changes, if finding a Model 3 is easier. Secondly, the M4 monitor is a very standard design, very similar to the circuitry in a portale TV. Iwould be very suprised if a CRT from a portable TV wouldn;t work, perhaps with trivial electrical changes (although probaly not even that). IIRC it's a 12" CRT with built-in mounting lugs, 90 degree deflection angle, narrow neck, 12V heater and modified B7G base. My guess is that if you can find a CRT that will fit (fit the yoke, fit the pin connector, fit in the case), it'll work. -tony From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Sep 29 18:02:14 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:02:14 -0500 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> Hi Sean, I've got the tech ref and have the pages handy. I've been staring at the NMI keyboard handler, but I can't figure out what the machine might be doing that would cause keyboard handling to fail. If NMI is the highest priority, then nothing about decoding the keyboard should fail except for the keyboard sending out bad bits. The call to INT 0x48 will still be done under the NMI interrupt, so nothing else can interrupt it and hose it. So the big question is, given the NMI setup, how can keyboard decoding ever fail due to something else the system might be trying to do? All other INTS are suppressed. The fact that I'm messing with a timer that it is not even using (0) bothers me even more .. Same code with the standard clock tick rate from timer 0 works just fine with the keyboard. Change the clock rate, and the keyboard goes nuts (can't decode anything) and the system becomes unstable. Lock the keyboard out with the faster rate, and everything is golden. Still have your Jr? Mike From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 18:06:09 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:06:09 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: <4AC2155D.25749.BA2A3CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4AC2155D.25749.BA2A3CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > If you like to powder-coat, wrinkle-finish powder can be had: > > http://www.powderbuythepound.com/ They call that wrinkle? 'Cuz I don't. -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Sep 29 18:43:20 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:43:20 -0400 Subject: Robert C. Peckham Inventory List... In-Reply-To: References: <200909281216.24454.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <4AC2564E.90900@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4AC29B98.40906@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > My concern is in any software that isn't the RT-11 Operating System. > Specifically any DEC Layered Products or 3rd Party applications. > > This might be a good time to mention I'm still trying to find a copy of > DECnet for RT-11. I am also looking for copies of SPD's that show what > versions of layered products go with which versions of DEC OS's > (specifically PDP-11 and PDP-10 OS's). > > Of the list below, these are the bits besides one of the cards in the 1st > system (the Codar card) that I find interesting. The 9-Track's should > potentially go to Al or Tim to read in. I don't know if the RT-11 SIG > tapes > have been archived (are these copies of what Tim has made CD's of?). The > "Floppy Media" needs to be inventoried. > >>> DECUS RT-11 SIG tapes (9-track) >>> >>> Many boxes of DEC-related hardware and supplies: >>> "Floppy media -- RX02, RX33, RX50" >> Tim Shoppa probably has most of the interesting RT-11 SIG tapes archived on the RT-11 Freeware V2.0 October 1999 CD. However, none of the DEC RT-11 distributions are covered on that CD. Attempts to locate the original source file have not been successful, however, I still have a personal copy of rt11freewarev2.iso.bz2 somewhere on a DVD. Checking the site at bitsavers (by AL Kossow) does not seem to show any of the DECUS RT-11 SIG tapes. Someone who is inclined to take the time to produce a detailed inventory of all of the media may turn up some files which are not available at this time. However, I am in Toronto, so I would need to have the media sent here to read anything. On the other hand, the labels on the media will usually be specific enough 90% of time. If someone will expend the effort to read and make a list, that would be the first and most useful step. But that will not happen until Alan Frisbie has been actually able to finish the rescue by October 1st, 2009. If anyone can physically help in the next 2 days in Glendale, California, please contact Alan at (323) 256-2575. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Sep 29 18:52:25 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:52:25 +0100 Subject: Disc drives and datasheets wanted (Sony MPF520 series, Teac, etc) Message-ID: <4AC29DB9.9060700@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, As I said earlier in the week, the disc analyser hardware is now working "mostly" -- as in, it'll talk to the PC, select a drive, spin the motor and display a ton of nifty blinking lights as the disc rotates (track0, write protect, index pulse, etc). I've been using a Sony MPF520 drive for testing -- basically your standard 3.5" half-height drive, jumperable for DS0 or DS1 and some form of override for the automatic density selection. I know where the DS0 jumper is, and I've got a rough idea what the different density-select options do. What I'd like is an OEM manual or datasheet for it -- hopefully including specs for the I/O drive capabilities, termination requirements and so on. Does anyone have one kicking around (or even better, a scanned copy)? Lastly, I've managed to track down a fair selection of 3.5" drives (I've got the MPF520, an MPF920 or two, and a few Samsung SFD321 series drives), but a Teac FD-235 series drive would be nice to play with. Alas, I haven't been able to find a source for these -- does anyone have a working spare surplus-to-requirements? I'd prefer one of the earlier versions with the massive jumper block; IIRC the newer ones have been declawed somewhat. I'm also after: * Some form of 8-inch drive and a couple of discs. Possibly Shugart SA400 or SA800 series or something similar? It doesn't have to look pretty, it just has to work. Matching cabling would be nice too (whatever-the-drive-has to Shugart-style 34-pin 0.1" IDC header ideally) * a 40-track 5.25" drive. Single or double sided is fine, something like the 40-track drives that were commonly used on BBC Micros. I seem to recall the Cumana drives being pretty popular. Not as fussed about this as I am the 8-inch drive (I can read 40tk discs with the 80tk drive I have already, just that if I write any 40tk images, they're not going to be readable on a 40tk drive). I've had a quick look on "that auction site", but it seems at least some of the sellers are on some form of illegal substance -- the prices are nuts. ?150 for a bog-standard 80-track 1.2MB 5.25" PC drive (i.e. exactly like the YE-Data drive I already have). Or ?59 for an MPF520 3.5" 80tk DSHD exactly like the one that's currently sitting on my desk. "Used and refurbished" even (but still the yellow front suggests it's probably not in great condition)... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From g-wright at att.net Tue Sep 29 19:14:12 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:14:12 +0000 Subject: Tektronix X term xp400 series, any interest, Free + shipping Message-ID: <093020090014.24039.4AC2A2D40005116200005DE722243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> model is xp 421 ch Has memory install. Small pizza box size (14"x14") not very heavy Uses PS2 keyboard and mouse (not included) Has15 pin VGA connector not sure if its standard pins outs location Kent Wa. USA - Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 22:49:22 2009 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:49:22 +0800 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: <4AC2155D.25749.BA2A3CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: This one to me looks close to the OP's "spatter" finish: http://www.powderbuythepoundwest.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=46_37&products_id=145 On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 7:06 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > If you like to powder-coat, wrinkle-finish powder can be had: > > > > http://www.powderbuythepound.com/ > > They call that wrinkle? 'Cuz I don't. > > -- > Will > From scheefj at netscape.net Tue Sep 29 23:01:12 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 00:01:12 -0400 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC2D808.9030800@netscape.net> I believe this finish was a specialty of most Earl Shibe shops. Today if you look for a MAACO shop, they might be able to... ;^) Jim Mike Ross wrote: > I'm currently restoring a pdp-15: > > http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2033045&id=1528659644&l=5d2b00be93 > > This one will need a fair bit of cosmetic restoration; there's enough surface rust on some of the panels to make a respray a good idea. Question: does anyone have any idea how to reproduce the rough / textured / 'spattered' appearance that DEC gave their cabinet paintwork? How was it done in the factory? See the last image in the album to see what I mean. > > Thanks! > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1= > From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 30 00:05:09 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 22:05:09 -0700 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: <4AC2D808.9030800@netscape.net> References: , <4AC2D808.9030800@netscape.net> Message-ID: "I can paint that vintage computer for $39.95!" ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Scheef [scheefj at netscape.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 9:01 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC paint: textures I believe this finish was a specialty of most Earl Shibe shops. Today if you look for a MAACO shop, they might be able to... ;^) Jim Mike Ross wrote: > I'm currently restoring a pdp-15: > > http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2033045&id=1528659644&l=5d2b00be93 > > This one will need a fair bit of cosmetic restoration; there's enough surface rust on some of the panels to make a respray a good idea. Question: does anyone have any idea how to reproduce the rough / textured / 'spattered' appearance that DEC gave their cabinet paintwork? How was it done in the factory? See the last image in the album to see what I mean. > > Thanks! > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MLOGEN_Core_tagline_local_1x1= > From tingox at gmail.com Tue Sep 29 13:23:10 2009 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:23:10 +0200 Subject: IBM System/3 available in EU. In-Reply-To: <20090929130203.GA30696@Update.UU.SE> References: <20090929130203.GA30696@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > How big is this system? (I guess that if I'm asking, it wont fit in my > house :) > There are a couple of pictures on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System/3 Interesting system. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 29 14:58:14 2009 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 20:58:14 +0100 Subject: Reference Disc for a Research Machines PC-386 Message-ID: <658A66D5F24A44F997AFDF15303240E5@hal> I'm looking for a reference disc for a 1991 vintage Research Machines Nimbus PC-386. It is a very peculiar design with MCA slots from a riser, an MCA IBM 380 (80Mb) HDD that is connected to the mainboard with a right angle riser and it has custom memory boards. The BIOS is by Chips & Technologies and is dated 1989 v.5.1J I have got a program called PSETUP (from Research Machines) that allows me to configure the RAM, date and time, but it won't see the hard drive and I suspect I need a newer version of the PSETUP program. I'd quite like to get this working as a neighbour brought it over (she's over 60) and she misses her card games! I've tried the Reference Disks of IBM model 60 and 80, but they bomb out saying they don't recognize the hardware. Any help would be appreciated. Cheers Dave From spc at conman.org Wed Sep 30 00:53:31 2009 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 01:53:31 -0400 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > The fact that I'm messing with a timer that it is not even using (0) > bothers me even more .. Same code with the standard clock tick rate > from timer 0 works just fine with the keyboard. Change the clock rate, > and the keyboard goes nuts (can't decode anything) and the system > becomes unstable. Lock the keyboard out with the faster rate, and > everything is golden. I wonder if it's a buggy timer chip? > Still have your Jr? Yes. And it even has a V20 in it. Unfortunately, it's backed away in storage at the moment and even if it was handy, there's no place to set it up. -spc (And it's been a loooooong time since it was last fired up ... ) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Sep 30 01:29:36 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 08:29:36 +0200 Subject: IBM System/3 available in EU. In-Reply-To: References: <20090929130203.GA30696@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20090930062936.GA10313@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 08:23:10PM +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > > > How big is this system? (I guess that if I'm asking, it wont fit in my > > house :) > > > > There are a couple of pictures on Wikipedia: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System/3 > Interesting system. I peeked at those, but they mostly show of the cpu rack, which doesn't look to big. But what is needed to run, a big honking tape drive and disk cabinet perhaps? /P From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Sep 30 02:17:25 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:17:25 +0200 Subject: Disc drives and datasheets wanted (Sony MPF520 series, Teac, etc) References: <4AC29DB9.9060700@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Lastly, I've managed to track down a fair selection of 3.5" drives (I've got the MPF520, an MPF920 or two, and a few Samsung SFD321 series drives), but a Teac FD-235 series drive would be nice to play with. Alas, I haven't been able to find a source for these -- does anyone have a working spare surplus-to-requirements? I'd prefer one of the earlier versions with the massive jumper block; IIRC the newer ones have been declawed somewhat. --- I think I can help you with that one I'm also after: * Some form of 8-inch drive and a couple of discs. Possibly Shugart SA400 or SA800 series or something similar? It doesn't have to look pretty, it just has to work. Matching cabling would be nice too (whatever-the-drive-has to Shugart-style 34-pin 0.1" IDC header ideally) --- I think I have an 8" drive, DSDD, that doesnt agree with my conversion system, but which is believed to be ok --- I also am supposed to have a print with an edge connector (50 pins) and IDC header on the other (34 pin) * a 40-track 5.25" drive. --- I have some 5.25" drives, 96 tpi and 40 tpi, various makes. I'll find some nice ones (read : many possible strapping possibilities) If you are interested, I can also send you the parts and software to set up an Octopus conversion system (look at http://www.farumdata.dk/uk/enoctop.asp I also have some empty cases as shown. They have room for 2x 5.25", 2x 3.5" and 1x 8" Can't help you though with a powersupply, I've only one left and have that in stock for my customers. The box is made for an AT powerr supply (the big one, L shaped), so you would need a 24VDC supply for the 8" disk, and the relevant power connector That would enable you to format quite a lot of discs, which you then can use to test/enhance your analysis system. You can contact me offline, and tell me what you would like Costs ? P&P only, from Denmark Nico From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Sep 30 02:17:25 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 08:17:25 +0100 Subject: DEC paint: textures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My ICT 1301 (built 1962) has a sort of sand finish, a bit like very fine wood chip wallpaper. On the underside of one of the top covers they missed some of the top coat and I can see the texture was in a primer, which barely covers the metal. In the next couple of years I am going to have to respray some areas where the covers have been scratched, another where I've spot welded some changes and one where the roof leaked and the covers have rusted through. Good job I'm also a classic car restorer, but I've never come across sand texture paint on a car, not even on my Land Rover recovery truck. If anyone happens to know anything about sand finish, I'd love to know. From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 02:19:58 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:19:58 +0200 Subject: IBM System/3 available in EU. In-Reply-To: <20090930062936.GA10313@Update.UU.SE> References: <20090929130203.GA30696@Update.UU.SE> <20090930062936.GA10313@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: http://www.corestore.org/3.htm Can be quite large... St?phane From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Sep 30 03:13:12 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 10:13:12 +0200 Subject: IBM System/3 available in EU. In-Reply-To: References: <20090929130203.GA30696@Update.UU.SE> <20090930062936.GA10313@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20090930081311.GA31206@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 09:19:58AM +0200, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > http://www.corestore.org/3.htm > > Can be quite large... > > St?phane Ah, thank you. It is very deep. /P From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 30 08:37:32 2009 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 06:37:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM System/3 available in EU. In-Reply-To: <20090930081311.GA31206@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <622005.44351.qm@web110405.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Also check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRS3eXQ9gGY&feature=related a commercial from IBM in two parts.? The System/3 Model 15D was the most powerful model replaced by System/38. Russ --- On Wed, 9/30/09, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: From: Pontus Pihlgren Subject: Re: IBM System/3 available in EU. To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wednesday, September 30, 2009, 4:13 AM On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 09:19:58AM +0200, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > http://www.corestore.org/3.htm > > Can be quite large... > > St?phane Ah, thank you. It is very deep. /P From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Sep 30 08:50:30 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:50:30 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <4ABFCAD3.1010007@update.uu.se> References: <4ABE6B39.3070806@bitsavers.org> <4ABFCAD3.1010007@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> On Sun, 2009-09-27 22:28:03 +0200, Pontus wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > > http://vt100.net/manx/ > Man... and I was thinking just the other week that I should do some > mirroring of it :/ I've been long thinking about scanned documents and the manx database specifically. Some time ago, I got my hands on a scanned pages (multi-page TIFFs, each page containing two book pages) and worked some time on them. It resulted in some script doing cutting/straigthening, reassembling a PDF and OCRing it, placing the text invisibly over the images (so you can cut'n'paste it, depending on the OCR quality of course :) ) I've started working further on it, eg. building some web frontend to add tags (eg. isbn=1234567, author=foo, ...). That's not yet really cool (it's experimentation after all), but I think that could easily be extended to do: * Full-text search on the PDFs. * Help building nice PDFs from scanned images * Maintain a useable metadata index (though I'm not too keen on the tag concept therefor) I'll /not/ publish it yet, nor give public access to my scanned book mentioned above, but I think I'll polish it a bit and offer it. Indexing the bitsavers.org material would be a nice first step. Do you think that would/could be useful for searching all the stuff? (And maybe for re-creating the PDFs with added OCRed text. This, at some time, might be particularly useful if ever scanned microfiche pages show up.) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety, the second : deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Ben Franklin) From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 30 09:23:02 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:23:02 -0700 Subject: Drivers for SparcStation SS240 (Voyager)? Message-ID: As part of my personal collection, I've recently brought a SparcStation Voyager back from the dead (wellllll, it was coughin' up blood last night....). After replacing the display (bad backlight) and the NVRAM (bad battery), I learned the machine bore Debian Linux (and I didn't have the passwords). I dug out a Solaris 2.6 CD and ran the automated install, and everything works! - except that it won't run the windowing system. Early in the boot process it complains about not finding the driver for the framebuffer. I verified that the framebuffer is seen on the Sbus (as a bwthree); that devalias showed a device called 'screen' looking to that framebuffer in the right place; that the framebuffer's slot was early in the Sbus probe; and since there wasn't a driver in /devices for bwthree, just on a chance I copied bwtwo to a file called bwthree. I am coming to the conclusion I have one of two problems: either I really need a particular driver for this framebuffer, or there's something I'm seriously misunderstanding in the process. In the former case, I hope there is someone out there who could share a file; in the latter, I hope he/she will share enlightenment. :-) Thanks -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Sep 30 09:35:39 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 07:35:39 -0700 Subject: IBM System/3 available in EU. In-Reply-To: References: <20090929130203.GA30696@Update.UU.SE> <20090930062936.GA10313@Update.UU.SE>, Message-ID: I recall working with one of these back in the late 1970s, and it was a "looming" presence in the room. :-) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Stephane Tsacas [stephane.tsacas at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM System/3 available in EU. http://www.corestore.org/3.htm Can be quite large... St?phane From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 30 11:05:09 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:05:09 -0700 Subject: Disc drives and datasheets wanted (Sony MPF520 series, Teac, etc) In-Reply-To: <4AC29DB9.9060700@philpem.me.uk> References: <4AC29DB9.9060700@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4AC381B5.7050100@bitsavers.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've had a quick look on "that auction site", but it seems at least some > of the sellers are on some form of illegal substance -- the prices are > nuts. They can ask whatever they like, just like the used book dealers have started to do on anything remotely obscure looking through bookfinder.com. I just spend more time now looking at non-ebay sources if I want something. I wanted to pick up a couple of Archive 2060S drives (working) and they are all listed there at well over $100. I found one well under that from a drive broker with a warranty for less than someone on ebay wanted for a capstan. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Sep 30 11:56:13 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 09:56:13 -0700 Subject: Drivers for SparcStation SS240 (Voyager)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Ian King > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 7:23 AM > In the former case, I hope there is someone out there who could share a file; > in the latter, I hope he/she will share enlightenment. http://www.enlightenment.org/p.php?p=download&l=en From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 30 12:11:36 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:11:36 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Bletchley_Park_earns_first_ever_lotte?= =?windows-1252?Q?ry_grant_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <4AC39148.2040503@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/29/bletchley_park_lottery_grant/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 30 12:53:22 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:53:22 -0600 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:50:30 +0200. <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: There is a blog post and a comment discussion about the demise of manx here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Sep 30 13:14:07 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:14:07 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2009-09-30 11:53:22 -0600, Richard wrote: > There is a blog post and a comment discussion about the demise of manx > here: I've already seen that, though I'm quite sceptic about the Google stuff. They surely could OCR scanned PDFs, but I'm not sure if they will do that. (That'll bring more copyrighted material into the database, which previously wasn't available as /text/.) OTOH, indexing it after OCRing doesn't rework the PDFs to be more fancy, eg. add a real TOC around the former document, create bibloographic metadata or put the OCRed text nicely into the PDFs. I like Bitsavers a lot (as well as other spread sources of scanned material), but I see those PDFs only as a nice container to have a useable format up to the time where we can do /better/ with the scanned pages. Point is: We now can! The software is all out there, with everything being opensources and free as well. Until now, scanning documents was mainly about conserving the paper and being able to share it without snail-mailing around the stuff, which always also contains the danger of loosing it. But we can now really polish the stuff. That's /not/ a substitute for Bitsavers et al.--we need them. The PDFs over there are a perfect format for archiving the scanned pages. But we'd place generated PDFs next to them, containing real Table of Contents, biblopgraphy entries and possibly even Indices, among the OCRed text. I'd probably just hack my scripts (they're a bit specific for working on one special type of scan I did) and do some test as a start for a Manx2 :) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Wenn ich wach bin, tr?ume ich. the second : From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Sep 30 13:19:50 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:19:50 -0700 Subject: IMP system software Message-ID: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> I think I asked about this several years ago, but I thought I might try my luck again. Is anyone aware of any surviving ARPAnet IMP System Software, in any form? -Seth From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Sep 30 13:33:53 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:33:53 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20090930183353.GS22865@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2009-09-30 11:53:22 -0600, Richard wrote: > There is a blog post and a comment discussion about the demise of manx > here: Btw, did anybody actually download the raw database? While surfing over the Manx page, I landed on [1], where Flo had a link to a DB dump [2], but that seems to be gone. (Or some kind of catch-all prevents it from being downloaded)... [1] http://hisdeedsaredust.com/category/manx/ [2] http://vt100.net/manx/dump/dec-all-20090403.tsv MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Ich hatte in letzter Zeit ein bi?chen viel Realitycheck. the second : Langsam m?chte ich mal wieder weitertr?umen k?nnen. -- Maximilian Wilhelm (18. Mai 2005, #lug-owl.de) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Sep 30 13:59:06 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:59:06 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20090930205906.2862ebd1.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > Until now, scanning documents was mainly about conserving the paper > and being able to share it without snail-mailing around the stuff, > which always also contains the danger of loosing it. But we can now > really polish the stuff. That's /not/ a substitute for Bitsavers et > al.--we need them. The PDFs over there are a perfect format for > archiving the scanned pages. But we'd place generated PDFs next to > them, containing real Table of Contents, biblopgraphy entries and > possibly even Indices, among the OCRed text. It all stands and falls with the quality of the printed document which was scanned. I have for example manuals for one of my systems (from east germany) which where printed really bad. Also the paper was such a bad quality - it became extremly yellow now. One example (if you care): http://files.pofo.de/066.png http://files.pofo.de/056.png I don't thinkthat there is any OCR Software which can cope with that ;) Because I hate it not being able to search through documents (thats why I like online manuals - full text search) I ended up transcripting the manuals and invested a massive amount of time in that.... ;) Check out pages 58 and 68 in that: http://pofo.de/P8000/notes/books/Einfuehrung_in_die_Software/1986_12/Einfuehrung_in_die_Software.pdf And the whole pdf is smaller than a single png (I know png is not the format which should be used, the original images are saved as TIFF);) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 30 14:39:59 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 15:39:59 -0400 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) Message-ID: <4AC3B40F.8020609@heeltoe.com> Seth Morabito wrote: > I think I asked about this several years ago, but I thought I might > try my luck again. > > Is anyone aware of any surviving ARPAnet IMP System Software, in any > form? I'm working on a radio with some folks from BBN. I'll ask them. Any idea what is was built on? i.e. I assume there was a cross assembler which ran somewhere. -brad -- ----------- Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting http://www.heeltoe.com 781-483-3101 From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Sep 30 14:47:37 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 12:47:37 -0700 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4AC3B40F.8020609@heeltoe.com> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC3B40F.8020609@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > From: Brad Parker > Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 12:40 PM > Seth Morabito wrote: >> I think I asked about this several years ago, but I thought I might >> try my luck again. >> Is anyone aware of any surviving ARPAnet IMP System Software, in any >> form? > I'm working on a radio with some folks from BBN. I'll ask them. > Any idea what is was built on? i.e. I assume there was a cross assembler > which ran somewhere. I would assume that it was built on a Honeywell 316, since that was the basis of the IMP. A former Honeywell employee tells me that that had its own environment. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 30 15:10:38 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:10:38 -0700 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4AC3B40F.8020609@heeltoe.com> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC3B40F.8020609@heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4AC3BB3E.9030702@bitsavers.org> Brad Parker wrote: > Seth Morabito wrote: >> I think I asked about this several years ago, but I thought I might >> try my luck again. >> >> Is anyone aware of any surviving ARPAnet IMP System Software, in any >> form? > I'm working on a radio with some folks from BBN. I'll ask them. > > Any idea what is was built on? DDP-516 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interface_Message_Processor even surviving binary downloads would be interesting. I have been told that BBN handled the downloads over the net, and that local nodes didn't maintain copies of the software. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 30 15:12:25 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:12:25 -0700 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <4AC3BBA9.7020204@bitsavers.org> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > They surely could OCR scanned PDFs, but I'm not sure if they > will do that. I can assure you that they HAVE been doing that on bitsavers content for over a year. That was one of the reasons I decided to start converting the content. People were contacting me wondering why the OCRed version wasn't on line. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Sep 30 15:53:39 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:53:39 -0400 Subject: Manx is dead? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: JBG writes: > [OCR'ing and indexing] > Indexing the bitsavers.org material would be a nice first step. Kinda magically, bitsavers documents are turning up in Google searches Quite regularly. I know, it's not really magic, what Google is doing Is OCR'ing (where not already done, I think that at least some of the Bitsavers PDF's already are OCR'ed by Al or others) and putting it in their gigantic Index. But the end result is magic. Google is astonishing. I've had files that I thought I lost years ago, But I start typing some search terms into Google and Shazam!, there's That document I wrote back in 1992 but haven't seen since, living on Somebody's mirror of my website from before I deleted it. That's astonishing. I'm not saying we should count on Google to do all our work, but wow. Tim. From hachti at hachti.de Wed Sep 30 16:40:37 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:40:37 +0200 Subject: Some new pictures... Message-ID: <4AC3D055.6080504@hachti.de> Hi folks, I recently tried out a service called "Picasa"... There you can now see some pictures of some stuff I've been in contact with the last few months. The people in Kiel have a giant collection of hardware. Their task is to compile a much smaller collection for a permanent exhibition. So much stuff had to go. And there's still more to go. The pictures are not up to date as their hall's layout changes every few weeks because of planning processes. I assume that most of the smaller items will have to go. Some of the stuff (i.e. masses!) that has not yet found a new home, will probably be subject to further negotiation, a flea market (auction?) in Kiel, and many eBay auctions. So now, look and see: http://picasaweb.google.com/iraeus/AFewImpressionsFromKiel With kind regards, Philipp :-) From hachti at hachti.de Wed Sep 30 16:45:22 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:45:22 +0200 Subject: IMP system software In-Reply-To: <4AC3BB3E.9030702@bitsavers.org> References: <76E77758-DF45-48E5-A376-DF4EABAA75D8@loomcom.com> (sfid-20090930_142507_081247_3810518B) <4AC3B40F.8020609@heeltoe.com> <4AC3BB3E.9030702@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4AC3D172.3010307@hachti.de> Hi, > even surviving binary downloads would be interesting. Leonard Kleinrock still has his IMP sitting in his office at UCLA. I tried to talk him into making a dump to paper tape, but he seemed a bit reluctant - perhaps anybody in the US could go there, fire up the machine and get the dump. I'm quite confident that the 516 just works. That's at least my experience with several H316 machines. > I have been told that BBN handled the downloads over the net, and that > local nodes didn't maintain copies of the software. Very modern! BTW, Leonard Kleinrock does not have the software. I also tried to get the H316 implementation of FORTH (must be one of the very first) from the author of FORTH - but he has no copy left :-( Best wishes, Philipp From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Sep 30 17:01:39 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:01:39 -0500 Subject: What a way to go... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090930165913.02cb53b8@localhost> See http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/09/29/193234/A-Geek-Funeral for links to some nice pictures. Slashdot sez: "We've recently talked about a geek wedding, and now reader Sam_In_The_Hills writes in with news of his brother's geek funeral. " "I've not seen this topic covered here before even though it's one that will concern us all at some time: what to do with our corporeal remains after we've left for that great data bank in the sky. For my recently departed brother (long illness, don't smoke!), I thought this nice SPARCstation would be a cool place to spend eternity. Yes, he's really in there (after cremation). I kept the floppy drive cover but for space reasons removed the floppy drive, hard drive, and most of the power supply. I left behind the motherboard and power switch and plugs to keep all openings covered. The case worked quite well at his memorial party. His friends and family were able to leave their final good-byes on post-notes. Anyone who wanted to keep their words private could just slip their note into the case through the floppy slot. All notes will be sealed in plastic and placed within the case. There has been one complication. His daughters like the look of it so much they aren't now sure if they want to bury him. One more thing: the words on the plaque really do capture one of the last things he ever said. Of course as kids we watched the show in its first run." ----- 350. [Computing] "Formal specifications yield correct programs." No. Formal specifications yield PhD theses. They may also occasionally yield programs as by-products, but no useful ones. --Ronald F. Guilmette --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Sep 30 17:25:27 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 00:25:27 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <20090930205906.2862ebd1.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930205906.2862ebd1.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20090930222527.GT22865@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2009-09-30 20:59:06 +0200, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > Until now, scanning documents was mainly about conserving the paper > > and being able to share it without snail-mailing around the stuff, > > which always also contains the danger of loosing it. But we can now > > really polish the stuff. That's /not/ a substitute for Bitsavers et > > al.--we need them. The PDFs over there are a perfect format for > > archiving the scanned pages. But we'd place generated PDFs next to > > them, containing real Table of Contents, biblopgraphy entries and > > possibly even Indices, among the OCRed text. > > It all stands and falls with the quality of the printed document which > was scanned. I have for example manuals for one of my systems (from east > germany) which where printed really bad. Also the paper was such a bad > quality - it became extremly yellow now. One example (if you care): > > http://files.pofo.de/066.png > http://files.pofo.de/056.png Oh... Pages in a really bad shape :( > I don't thinkthat there is any OCR Software which can cope with that ;) No way... That's where (at least for now) only a human can help. And to be honest, I would have a hard time reading the lower part of http://files.pofo.de/056.png for example... > Because I hate it not being able to search through documents (thats why I > like online manuals - full text search) I ended up transcripting the > manuals and invested a massive amount of time in that.... ;) > > Check out pages 58 and 68 in that: > > http://pofo.de/P8000/notes/books/Einfuehrung_in_die_Software/1986_12/Einfuehrung_in_die_Software.pdf That's great work! What kind of workflow did you use to create the PDF? What tools were involved? I think that, by doing that, you already learned a lot the hard way which others might learn from. > And the whole pdf is smaller than a single png (I know png is not the > format which should be used, the original images are saved as TIFF);) Sure--plain text compresses quite good. A distorted, partially randomized image doesn't :) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: 17:45 <@Eimann> Hrm, das E90 hat keinen Lebenszeit Call-Time Counter mehr the second : 17:46 <@jbglaw> Eimann: Wof?r braucht man das? 17:46 <@jbglaw> Eimann: F?r mich ist an 'nem Handy wichtig, da? ich mein Gege?ber h?ren kann. Und da? mein Gegen?ber mich versteht... 17:47 <@KrisK> jbglaw: was du meinst ist wodka. 17:47 <@KrisK> jbglaw: es klingelt und man h?rt stimmen From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 30 18:11:17 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:11:17 -0600 Subject: Some new pictures... In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 30 Sep 2009 23:40:37 +0200. <4AC3D055.6080504@hachti.de> Message-ID: In article <4AC3D055.6080504 at hachti.de>, Philipp Hachtmann writes: > The people in Kiel have a giant collection of hardware. Their task is to > compile a much smaller collection for a permanent exhibition. So much > stuff had to go. And there's still more to go. The pictures are not up > to date as their hall's layout changes every few weeks because of > planning processes. Wow... awesome stuff. Too bad they're having to downsize a bunch of it. The Tektronix 4006 terminal in there is particularly rare. The 4014 isn't exactly common either, but I'm only aware of one person that has a 4006 -- our own Bob Rosenbloom. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Sep 30 19:53:49 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 19:53:49 -0500 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> Ok, solved my own problem. If you bang your head hard enough ... The first version of Ping worked just fine no matter how hard I abused the keyboard. My new timer code is fine. The BIOS of the machine is fine. So what's the problem? This is the first time since I started this project that I turned on floating point emulation in the Turbo C++ 3.0 library. Even though I specified emulation, it is probably trying to be smart and use an 8087 if it finds one. Which also implies that it is setting the NMI vector. (I'll verify this later.) So doing anything on the keyboard on the Jr while the code was running was enough to trigger an NMI, and the Turbo C++ runtime was probably trying to figure out what to do with a bogus NMI. Not a happy thing. The same exact code without the one stinking little floating point calc works just fine, and I can lay on the keyboard the whole time. Grrrr ... On an unrelated note, CLI and STI are not enough to prevent an NMI on this machine. (Or on any PC for that matter - but on this machine NMIs are easy to trigger.) I'm wondering if I should make it a habit to disable NMI if I really am serious about disabling interrupts. In this particular case, touching the timer while only using CLI and STI is unsafe because a keypress will touch that exact timer hardware too. Anytime that an NMI caused by the keyboard might screw up the state of hardware that you are touching it seems like NMI needs to be disabled. Unfortunately, there is a lot of BIOS code to handle the keyboard that I need to read to find out what it might be touching. Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Sep 30 20:05:24 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 20:05:24 -0500 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> On a related note, does anybody have a good method for doing a floating point multiply in software? Before I steal an existing floating point emulation lib, I'd like to see if I can cheat and just write enough code to do the one multiply that I need. I need to figure out how to do this: float elapsed = ticks * 0.85; using purely integer operations. Thanks, Mike From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 20:15:54 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:15:54 -0400 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0909301815n65b30201o838a5c424365c604@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 21:05, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I need to figure out how to do this: > > ?float elapsed = ticks * 0.85; > > using purely integer operations. There's a gazillion ways to do it; first question would be, what precision do you need? What is the range of ticks? If the range of ticks is small (8 bits or so) see if a lookup table can be fit into RAM; otherwise, figure out the precision you need and the size of storage for an intermediate value, then calculate (ticks*x)>>n, where x/(2^n) approximates 0.85. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 30 20:17:47 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:17:47 -0700 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com>, <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com>, <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4AC3A0CB.10414.11AB495D@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Sep 2009 at 20:05, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > On a related note, does anybody have a good method for doing a > floating point multiply in software? Before I steal an existing > floating point emulation lib, I'd like to see if I can cheat and just > write enough code to do the one multiply that I need. > > I need to figure out how to do this: > > float elapsed = ticks * 0.85; What range of arguments and and to what precision? You can always simplify division by a constant to multiplication by the binary- scaled reciprocal (with some loss of precision). Multiplication, of course, can be decomposed to a series of adds and shifts. --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Sep 30 20:22:52 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:22:52 -0700 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> Message-ID: <230D3812-79E7-4149-B41D-627DE008E14E@shiresoft.com> On Sep 30, 2009, at 6:05 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > On a related note, does anybody have a good method for doing a > floating point multiply in software? Before I steal an existing > floating point emulation lib, I'd like to see if I can cheat and > just write enough code to do the one multiply that I need. > > I need to figure out how to do this: > > float elapsed = ticks * 0.85; > > using purely integer operations. Why do people always seem to want to have elapsed time as a floating point number? How about: elapsed = (85 * ticks) / 100. If you need more scale, try a scaling factor: scale = 1000 elapsed = (85 * scale * ticks) / 100 TTFN - Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 30 20:36:31 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:36:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20090930183255.W68140@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > On a related note, does anybody have a good method for doing a floating > point multiply in software? Before I steal an existing floating point > emulation lib, I'd like to see if I can cheat and just write enough code > to do the one multiply that I need. > I need to figure out how to do this: > float elapsed = ticks * 0.85; > using purely integer operations. Unless you are deliberately TRYING to waste cycles, then stay clear of floating point! What's wrong with: (int) elapsed = ((int) ticks * (int) 85)/ (int) 100 with remainder. (or (long) if you are dealing with larger numbers) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 30 20:43:39 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <230D3812-79E7-4149-B41D-627DE008E14E@shiresoft.com> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> <230D3812-79E7-4149-B41D-627DE008E14E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20090930183822.A68140@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Why do people always seem to want to have elapsed time as a floating > point number? > Because some of the CRAP that they learned in school makes them think that truncation (or even rounding) to an int value "isn't the RIGHT answer". In the XenoSoft Sales Tax Genie, I wrote a very small TSR that calculated the sales tax of every California jurisdiction (based on ZIPCODE), rounded appropriately to an "exact" cents amount. I NEVER used floating point. I do not HAVE any "fraction of a cent" coins! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Sep 30 21:17:17 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 21:17:17 -0500 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions In-Reply-To: <20090930183822.A68140@shell.lmi.net> References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> <20090929215904.GA32396@brevard.conman.org> <4AC291F6.5040705@brutman.com> <20090930055330.GA29752@brevard.conman.org> <4AC3FD9D.4000709@brutman.com> <4AC40054.5040703@brutman.com> <230D3812-79E7-4149-B41D-627DE008E14E@shiresoft.com> <20090930183822.A68140@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4AC4112D.6090201@brutman.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 30 Sep 2009, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >> Why do people always seem to want to have elapsed time as a floating >> point number? >> > > Because some of the CRAP that they learned in school makes them think that > truncation (or even rounding) to an int value "isn't the RIGHT answer". > > In the XenoSoft Sales Tax Genie, I wrote a very small TSR that calculated > the sales tax of every California jurisdiction (based on ZIPCODE), rounded > appropriately to an "exact" cents amount. I NEVER used floating point. > I do not HAVE any "fraction of a cent" coins! > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com I think that both of you are making assumptions about my education, upbringing, etc. that are not true and I'd like you to calm down. I've used that trick in all of my other TCP/IP apps so far - they all report elapsed time (sometimes with decimal points), and I managed to do it without ever linking in the floating point library. I was using this to explore other methods .. I don't know what CRAP you learned, but I would try to be more gracious ... Mike From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Wed Sep 30 23:35:02 2009 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 01 Oct 2009 06:35:02 +0200 Subject: Some new pictures... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AC43176.2010103@bluewin.ch> Richard wrote: > In article <4AC3D055.6080504 at hachti.de>, > Philipp Hachtmann writes: > > >> The people in Kiel have a giant collection of hardware. Their task is to >> compile a much smaller collection for a permanent exhibition. So much >> stuff had to go. And there's still more to go. The pictures are not up >> to date as their hall's layout changes every few weeks because of >> planning processes. pic 105 shows some sledgehammers....... >> Wow... awesome stuff. Too bad they're having to downsize a bunch of >> it. The Tektronix 4006 terminal in there is particularly rare. The >> 4014 isn't exactly common either, but I'm only aware of one person >> that has a 4006 -- our own Bob Rosenbloom >> IIRC a 4006 whent for a pittance not al that long ago in ebay.de. Jos From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Sep 30 23:47:21 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 06:47:21 +0200 Subject: manx is dead? In-Reply-To: <20090930222527.GT22865@lug-owl.de> References: <20090930135030.GO22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930181407.GR22865@lug-owl.de> <20090930205906.2862ebd1.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20090930222527.GT22865@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20091001064721.a2117ae9.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > No way... That's where (at least for now) only a human can help. And > to be honest, I would have a hard time reading the lower part of > http://files.pofo.de/056.png for example... Yeah - I must admit I cheated a bit. I asked a friend, who had a slightly better printed book where it was a bit more readable, to scan this single page for me ;) > > Because I hate it not being able to search through documents (thats why I > > like online manuals - full text search) I ended up transcripting the > > manuals and invested a massive amount of time in that.... ;) > > > > Check out pages 58 and 68 in that: > > > > http://pofo.de/P8000/notes/books/Einfuehrung_in_die_Software/1986_12/Einfuehrung_in_die_Software.pdf > > That's great work! What kind of workflow did you use to create the > PDF? What tools were involved? I think that, by doing that, you > already learned a lot the hard way which others might learn from. I just typed the text into a plain txt file to have it without any application specific foo and so I will be able to read it in 400 years ;) image on the right monitor, text file on the left monitor (good to have two monitors for that!) After the book is done I just loaded the text file into OpenOffice (I already searched for some script-related stuff, docbook and so on but I was never satisfied), set the relevant headline markers so I would get a nice TOC in my PDF. 2nd step was to recreate the images using the OpenOffice Draw utility and hook them up to the pages (I just don't liked it to have the original grey and bad readable images in my nice document so I redraw them) Then I just copied my cover and the back templates at the beginning and the end of the document, edited them to match the book and then just exported the whole thing as PDF. You see, it is not really automated but since I only have a bunch of books and not tons this was OK for me. -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From jdebert at garlic.com Tue Sep 29 08:50:31 2009 From: jdebert at garlic.com (j debert) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:50:31 -0700 Subject: VT100 - rubber feet are melting In-Reply-To: References: <7B73D542CD244CE99DB56CB180B4A34F@obie> Message-ID: <4AC210A7.1060308@garlic.com> The same thing happened to the feet on the pedestal for my HP150B and it was sitting atop a 9121D like it was meant to. It has also happened to the feet of several other things as well, all of various ages, after about four years or so. It seems to happen to a particular rubbery but very "sticky" material, which they all happen to be made of, which also stains and is a bit difficult to remove. -- jd From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Sep 30 11:31:38 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 11:31:38 -0500 Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions References: <4AC2362D.2050200@brutman.com> Message-ID: <066301ca41eb$7c803f20$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael B. Brutman" To: "CCTalk_list" Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 11:30 AM Subject: PCjr NMI and 8253 Timer interactions > > I recently wrote a ping utility for my DOS TCP/IP stack, and I wasn't > satisfied with the 55ms resolution of the BIOS timer tick. I used the > 'delay' function in the Turbo C runtime which gives me a processor loop > that delays with 1ms granularity. I figured that I could call that and > poll for the ping reply, and the number of calls would be the ping latency > in ms. > > Testing of delay in a controlled environment shows that at least on my > PCjr, it is off by 15%. My V20 processor might be part of the problem, > although I'm not going to fix it. > > So I decided to dabble with the 8253 a bit. What a nightmare .. > > First, some observations on the 8253: > > - Mode 3 on the 8253 is not suitable for reading because of the way it > counts down twice before triggering an interrupt. If you just latch and > read the count you can't tell if you are on the first pass or the second > pass before the interrupt. That's not good for timing. > > - Mode 2 counts down and generates an interrupt in a sane way, but > generates a different pulse to the 8259 interrupt controller so I'd rather > not use it. The BIOS initializes with Mode 3, and that is what I am > sticking with. > > > I decided to make timer 0 tick at a faster rate (64x faster), and in my > interrupt handler I call the original interrupt handler at the appropriate > rate to avoid speeding up the system clock. This works fine, even on the > PCjr. Except for one case ... > > On the PCjr, if I touch the keyboard the machine screeches. And not its > normal polite 'Go away I'm busy beep' either. The keyboard on this > machine is wired to NMI instead of IRQ1, so it has higher priority than > timer 0. The NMI interrupt is used to read the keyboard serial data > stream and it uses timer 1 of the 8253 to record when the first bit is > received. Timer 1 isn't used elsewhere, so that is fine. If there is an > error in the serial data it sounds the system beeper, so timer 2 can get > altered at any time making timer 2 unusable. > > Any keypress causes the screeching. First, I can't figure out why the NMI > handler is having a problem deserializing the keyboard even if timer 0 is > running fast. All interrupts are disabled, so this should be business as > usual. Yet any keypress causes it to go nuts. Any ideas? (As a side > effect the timings reported by ping start to look bad - the NMI is > definitely taking up precious time.) > > Second, the machine becomes unstable. I don't care about getting bad > timings because of keypresses, but this is far worse .. > > If I disable the NMI interrupt everything is perfect - but then you can't > hit Ctrl-Break to stop pinging. (Yes, I have Ctrl-Break captured, and it > works if I don't mess with timer 0 at all.) I don't want to have to shut > off the keyboard entirely if there is a possibility of figuring out why > the NMI is causing problems with a fast timer 0. > > > Ideas? > > > Thanks in advance, > Mike > Many years ago I tried a similar trick. I think I wanted a 10 millisecond interrupt rate instead of 55ms for an embedded DOS application, and I got it to work - sort of. However, I soon discovered that many other things including the Borland delay() function depend on the 55ms interval, so I rather quickly abandoned that line of thinking. I rather suspect your PCjr keyboard driver is making similar assumptions regarding the tick rate. I still use the 8253 for timing with better resolution by simply latching and reading it periodically. Of course one must check and compensate for the case where the timer rolls over from 0x0000 to 0xFFFF between two successive reads. It is necessary to hold interrupts around the latch and read command sequence to avoid incorrect register read values. I seem to recall the 8253 counts down at a 0.8 microsecond rate so this only works if one can arrange to check the timer at least once every 52ms. I should add that my experience doing this is all under DOS on a PC, not a PCjr. It does seem to work fine in a DOS window under both W98 and XP as well, though I try to always use a full screen DOS window since I understand that fewer things are "virtualized" in that case. I have no details as to what those things are, but everything just seems to work better that way. Later, Charlie Carothers -- My email address is csquared3 at tx dot rr dot com From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 17:10:49 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fairlight CMI In-Reply-To: <0E2CDB22-4B42-4A26-9E04-C59FCCDAF8B6@neurotica.com> References: <399726.45839.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <0E2CDB22-4B42-4A26-9E04-C59FCCDAF8B6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Sep 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 29, 2009, at 9:58 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: >> Being a vintage computer and synthesiser fan, I'd love >> to get a Fairlight CMI for restoration/care/actual use >> so if anyone has any Fairlight CMI model they would like >> to either sell or trade let me know. Can be EU or US. > > Mmmmm, Fairlight. > > Years ago (1988 or so?) my friend Mike in Delaware had a Synclavier II. > That thing was damn impressive. Sadly he no longer has it. Unless I'm > mistaken, there's a MicroVAX-II in there! There's been earlier discussion on this list, but short answer is that you are mistaken :-). The Synclavier was built around New England Digital's own bit-slice CPU originally developed for their ABEL minicomputer system. Probably based on AMD 29xx parts, although I do not know that for sure. A company I ran in the 80s did a lot of audio systems contracting work with NED and I recall seeing terminals all over the place that were logged on to the in-house ABEL system. I think they used it for inventory, billing, etc. All the support software was developed in the ABEL environment AFAIK. Steve -- From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Sep 30 17:15:08 2009 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 18:15:08 -0400 Subject: Classic computers endangered! Message-ID: I read an article today in 'New Scientist' entitled 'Innovation: Classic computers on the danger list' with Tom Simonite writing: "Pretty much every adult alive today has seen computers change the world, but we are doing precious little to celebrate the influence of the computers and software that created our society." Indeed! Are we failing to preserve the earliest part of microcomputing history? Will classiccmp.org discuss early ucomputers in 5 yrs., 10 yrs.? From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 30 18:52:15 2009 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 16:52:15 -0700 Subject: Compaq Portable III HDDs Message-ID: <710BD978DEB444B3AE488AEFE286F1E8@tegp4> Hi: I'm a newbie to the group and a long time volunteer at the Computer History Museum, Mt View CA. We'd like to know the models of Conner HDDs shipped in the Compaq Portable IIIs. The Conner model numbers should have the form of CP340, CP341, CP342, CP3102, etc. The following is a list of the known capacity and Compaq PNs for the Conner HDDs shipped by Compaq: Portable III Hard Drives Size Type Inter-leave Integrated Min ROM Spare Part No 20MB 2 1:01 Y K Not known 20MB 2 3:01 Y K 107357-001 40MB 17 3:01 Y K 110358-001 40MB3 224 1:01 Y R.2 Not known 40MB3 43 1:01 Y F 114106-001 84MB3 27 1:01 Y K Not known 100MB3 45 1:01 Y K 142365-0011 120MB3,5 45 1:01 Y K 161832-0012 1 Except Europe. 2 Europe only. 3 Requires MS-DOS 3.2 or later. 4 Drive type 17 if ROM earlier than R.2 is used. 5 Formats to 100 MB. Extracted from http://oldcomputers.net/compaqiii.pdf and other sources Just the Conner model number would be good, but I would appreciate as much information as u can provide, such as the corresponding Compaq part number (if marked), a photo of the Conner technical data plate, and some information on the date of manufacture of the drive and system (such as photos of pcbs showing date lot codes). Tom Gardner